update: I don’t want to babysit my brother in my office

by Alison Green on February 3, 2025

Remember the letter-writer whose mother was pressuring her to babysit their brother in their office after school? Here’s the update — and some more advice from me.

Thank you for answering my letter! It was too late to reply to the comments after work, but I’ll address some of them here:

For those asking if I still live with my mother: I moved out when I was 18 and live in my own apartment with roommates. My brother was born when I was 10 years old, so that’s where the age gap comes from.

For those asking why my brother can’t just stay at home like most teens: He usually does, but given my brother’s recent trouble in school, my mother wanted some adult supervision over him. Also, he could take the bus to my job or to my mom’s house but not to my mom’s job.

For those concerned about whether my brother has been a victim of abuse: I absolutely hope not, but nothing has indicated that as of now. His teacher, principal, and school counselor broached the subject, but my brother had repeatedly denied anything nefarious. A commenter brought up unsupervised Internet use, and I think that’s the likely culprit. My brother has his own dumbphone, but my mother lets him on her smartphone all the time. (A point of contention is that my brother will whine to my mom if I don’t let him use mine, and I’ve been practicing standing my ground with mom on that front.)

As for the actual update:

On the day after you published my letter, I decided to reach out to my manager with a quick warning with the script you suggested. He was very understanding and said that it wouldn’t be a problem. He asked if he should reach out to CPS, and I said maybe not on the first time my brother might show up. Calling CPS still feels like a nuclear option.

My manager also asked the receptionist if she had recalled any conversation about “single mothers” allowing their kids in the office. She said that there was a job candidate who had called the other day asking about it. The receptionist said that she kept repeating that she couldn’t disclose childcare policies to candidates but gave a short comment that single mothers sometimes brought children just to get her to stop. (When I pressed my mother about this, she confirmed that she was the “job candidate.”)

That was a Thursday. For everyone saying that my brother would have a surprise visit to my workplace, you had predicted my Friday afternoon.

I had gotten a call from the receptionist that a boy was sitting on the bench outside the front door. My brother argued that our mom said that he could stay at my job. I made him march to the bus stop to go home, and I stayed outside until the bus came.

Later that day, I ran into a different coworker who said that she ran into my brother on her smoke break. She said that he said something “weird” to her that she couldn’t actually make out, so we both went to my manager to talk about it.

We decided to pull up the security footage from the front door. When my coworker approached, my brother made an obscene comment to her, out of nowhere. (Note from Alison: I’m censoring the comment because it’s obscene, as well as very weird.)

My coworker just stood there and asked, “What?”

After some silence, he slouched in his seat and mumbled something. We couldn’t hear it on the feed, but my coworker said she could maybe make out “never mind.” I apologized to her and affirmed that he was not coming to the office again. She told my manager and me that she didn’t want to press the issue as she was more confused than anything when he said it.

My phone call with my mother about this was loud and angry, but I did my best to stand my ground. I said that I had already made my “no” clear enough, and if my brother shows up at my job again, my manager will call CPS.

She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself, especially since everything she said is objectively true — that I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood, that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault, that there is nobody else in her life who can help her, that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her, and that I never hang out enough with him anyway.

But I told her that I can’t do my job with him there and, conversely, that I also can’t watch him while I do my job. That he was only there for 20 minutes and already harassed a coworker, and that it wasn’t going to be any better for her or my brother if he got in more trouble.

I had to hang up on my mother in the middle of talking to her because I was just repeating myself, and I just felt like a bratty teen for doing it, no different from my brother. I realized halfway through talking to her that I was trying to give her that “perfect” argument a commenter mentioned to show that I understood where she was coming from, especially since, as many commenters had noticed, that our family situation has been really strenuous since my dad died.

I do want to thank you and the commenters for your advice. Sometimes I get frustrated when people tout about boundaries on the Internet as if it’s trendy and easy, but I still feel like my boundaries don’t help my mother or my brother. My only substantial argument was that having my brother at my job would’ve helped my brother less, and I’ve been holding onto it for personal reassurance. There’s not much else for me to say with this response already so long, so thanks again.

I don’t normally provide additional advice when I publish updates, but this is important to say: the main goal of setting boundaries is to help you. As it happens, your boundaries are likely to help your mom and your brother in the long run, too, by modeling healthy interactions and being clear about what you will and won’t accept so they can make their own choices accordingly … but the measure of success in setting boundaries isn’t “does the other person accept this / feel good about it?” or “am I bettering the other person’s situation by maintaining this boundary?” Boundaries are about keeping you in a healthy and sustainable place. The fact that your mom doesn’t want that for you is a mark of the dysfunction in your family dynamics, but it’s not selfish to create a separation between yourself and that dysfunction. (In fact, that’s often the only way to escape it.) You can still love your mom and brother while declining to engage in that dysfunction with them.

Frankly, I’d argue setting boundaries is a loving gesture toward them, because it’s an investment in having a healthy relationship with them in the long-term — but that’s not the main driver of why you set boundaries, and whether they perceive them that way or not isn’t the mark of whether boundaries are working.

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{ 299 comments }

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  1. Resident Catholicville, U.S.A.*

    “that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault”

    No. It. Would. Not. Be. Your. Fault.

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    1. Here for the updates.*

      Exactly! That whole paragraph is not things that are objectively true, except maybe not understanding the stresses of motherhood if OP isn’t a parent. Even then, OP seems to fully understand the stresses of dealing with their brother in this situation.

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      1. Christina*

        I’m so glad this was the first thing people noticed. These things are not objectively true, and they are not your responsibility.

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        1. NotBatman*

          Yes! It’s straight from the abusive parent rationalizations playbook. Making OP out as unfeeling, while also making it all about the mom’s feelings, all to try to manipulate OP into doing something against everyone’s best interests to make the mom feel better. My heart goes out to you, OP, and I hope you have friends on Team You that you can lean on right now.

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    2. Reba*

      I actually gasped at that. Far from being objective, it’s a horrible, wildly untrue thing for the mother to say.

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      1. Falling Diphthong*

        Also gasped.

        OP, please break this down:
        Brother can take bus from school to your work or to his home: No danger of kidnapping.
        Brother can sit outside your work saying weird obscenities to whoever comes by: No danger of kidnapping.
        You put him on a bus to his home: Suddenly kidnappers seep from the woodwork.

        This is not logical.

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        2. ferrina*

          Exactly this.

          Brother wasn’t in danger of kidnapping despite taking the bus and being unsupervised. But when OP refused to let him be at OP’s office, suddenly there were kidnappers.
          Catastrophizing like this is a manipulation tactic. Mother is trying to use a worst-case scenario (that is incredibly unlikely, and wouldn’t be remotely OP’s fault if it did happen) to force OP to do what she wants. Note that her part in preventing this so-called scenario is absolutely absent (and even if she were doing every single anti-kidnapper technique, OP still wouldn’t be obliged to follow her practices, and especially not for someone OP isn’t responsible for!)

          For the record- if the brother does get kidnapped, my condolences to the kidnappers.

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            3. AAM Enjoyer*

              You have unlocked a lovely memory from my middle school English class! I hope they’re still teaching this story in schools, because I vividly remember the long tiring speech the kid made to his kidnappers that included, “I LOVE ORANGES!”

              Very much an early version of that Simpsons meme that says “my kidnappers returning me after I talk nonstop about ____.”

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          2. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            You mean how mom had no issues with kidnappers No concern about kidnappers between the boy’s home and school and then between the school building and OP’s office? So the objective truth is if the boy gets kidnapped on his way to the bus to OP’s office it’s on the mom, but on the way home from the office, it’s on OP.
            If moms gets fired because of the boy’s issues, like having to leave work or something worse, that’s the OP’s fault. If OP gets fired because her brother thinks saying dirty words to women walking by is cool, it’s not brother’s fault.
            OP’s moms needs help, yes, but not anything OP can give her. OP’s brother needs help, but again, not anything OP can give him.

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      2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        A big part of this type of conversational grenade is that it’s an attempt to get you to argue over something else. When you’re arguing about the actual risk level of a teenage boy getting kidnapped and whose fault that would be, the breadth of her support network, etc., you’re not talking about how the brother absolutely cannot hang out at your workplace. Presumably because if they distract you, they can argue you didn’t *really* give a clear, unambiguous no. Admiral Akbar knows – it’s a trap. Everything she said is entirely irrelevant to the fact that he cannot hang out at your workplace.

        One thing Captain Awkward has recommended is just agreeing with unreasonable people if they call you selfish or whatever. Like “yup, super selfish daughter here. He still can’t come to my workplace.” They expect an emotional reaction from you at being called selfish / having your character called into question. When they don’t get it, they get confused.

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          1. Selina Luna*

            Grey rock. She escalates, and you become an emotionless robot.
            That’s what I do when my grandmother is being unreasonable.

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          2. Liz T*

            Here to comment along the same lines.
            “She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself, especially since everything she said is objectively true” I saw this in play last month when my mother was interacting with my brother and I could instantly feel my mindset shifting into that warped space where she’d get under my skin and I’d be questioning whether *I* was the crazy one. But in this case, as the target of her one-directional “conversation” was with my brother and not me, so I could see it from a more outside perspective.
            It was a conversation where she was not open to being convinced of anything other than her perspective. It was not a conversation my brother was going to “win”

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        2. Soon to be ex wife*

          And this is how I got divorced
          Signed
          Super selfish narcissist wife and the only person in the entire world who thinks like I do, according to soon-to-be-ex husband

          Reply ↓
      3. Worldwalker*

        The mother has trained the OP her whole life to believe that anything the mother says is true, and to find ways of rationalizing it into truth, instead of the self-serving BS it really is.

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        1. Justcuz*

          And that the care and upbringing of her little brother is her responsibility. It is not. This kid could turn out to be an absolute banana crackers monster face and it would never ever be OP’s fault.

          Parents are responsible for their children. Period. If they cannot, then they lose those children.

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      4. Midwest Manager too!*

        This gave me flashbacks to arguments with my own toxic parent. Misdirection, gaslighting, blame-shifting, and a complete twisting of the facts to fit the desired narrative.

        OP, I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. Your mother is incorrectly making you responsible for her decisions and your brother’s actions. PLEASE, please, do not cave to this. Even a little. She will continue to press you. Hold the line. Do. Not. Budge.

        You have worked hard to get where you are, and you deserve to live your life without the stresses that they are trying to hand off to you. You are not required to accept crap behavior from people “because they’re family”. You don’t owe them anything, nor are you required to have any specific feelings for or about them. You are allowed to feel what you feel, have your own opinions, and set your own boundaries to live your adult life the way you choose without your relations putting your livelihood at risk.

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        1. ferrina*

          Yeah, I was also getting flashbacks. It’s all stuff that sounds vaguely reasonable in the moment, but when you take a step back, it’s patchwork. But it’s stuff that you’ve been hearing since you were a kid, and you were conditioned to normalize that. It’s hard to get back.

          Also seconding what Alison said- those boundaries are for you, not the other person. The unreasonable person is going to be unreasonable. The boundary is for you to give yourself distance from them. I’m proud of OP hanging up the phone when the mother was making the conversation go in circles (also a technique my mom does- press your point until you exhaust the other person. It’s not about using logic, it’s purely about wearing them down until they do what you want.)

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        2. susan*

          I also suggest OP would do well, longer-term, to move away from the city in which she currently lives, which will allow her to spread her wings and get away from the toxic mother.

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    3. RCB*

      Came here to say exactly this! It would be YOUR MOTHER’S fault, she knows this, and she was being manipulative even saying it to you. This is all the proof you need that she is toxic and that your boundaries are justified.

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    4. Pastor Petty Labelle*

      Exactly. I missed that point in my post.

      If your brother was kidnapped — a highly unlikely situation btw — it would have been her fault for sending your brother to where he was told he cannot be.

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    6. Chris*

      Classic abuser behavior. If he was kidnapped, the kidnapper would be the only one at fault, but mom would have created the situation entirely on her own by placing brother in a situation where she was already told he would not be supervised.

      You may need more therapy than you can find on a website to get through this, and you definitely need to hold your ground, no matter what guilt trips your mother puts on you (even if that means a temporary or permanent end to your relationship with her).

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      1. susan*

        OP should read the book TOXIC PARENTS by Susan Forward.

        (I am not the Susan in question – I picked my username as a tip of the hat to the book!)

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    7. Funko Pops Day*

      OP, I am so proud of you for what you did here. But the things you list your mom saying as “objectively true” simply are not valid criticisms:
      I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood You can understand this and also not be able to have a troubled teen in your workplace. This would be a valid thing to say to dissuade you from embarking on solo parenting if you seemed cavalier about it, but is not relevant here.
      that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault Abso-freaking-lutely NO.
      that there is nobody else in her life who can help her, This may be true, but that also does not make it your job to do it.
      that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her Yes, this is the difference between being a parent and a sibling.
      that I never hang out enough with him anyway. Having him in your office while you’re AT WORK is not quality bonding time.

      The fact that your mom has made you think that these are reasonable arguments means she’s really warped your sense of your obligations and role. Therapy would be really, really valuable in helping understand the funhouse mirror that you’re currently seeing this situation through. Even if something long term isn’t feasible for you right now, I hope you might call an EAP for st least a few conversations. We are rooting for you.

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      2. AnotherSarah*

        Yes, that’s correct! I came here to say this. Also–not understanding the stresses of motherhood is good, because you aren’t a mother. There are lots of stresses you only understand when you’re in a particular role and that’s OKAY and NORMAL. I sometimes feel frustrated that people don’t understand me/my life but that’s on me to deal with, and sometimes a few limited others, but decidedly not my kids.

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        1. Ginger Baker*

          Right, like, I don’t understand how stressful it is to work in the ER and how much worse it was in 2020/2021, but it’s not expected that I understand because I don’t work in healthcare and am not choosing to start working in healthcare. OP, you’re not a parent and do NOT need to opt in to being a second parent for your brother. If your mom doesn’t have other support, that sucks for her, but she’s a fully grown adult who is more than capable of working to address that issue on her own without subjecting her CHILD to PARENTING DUTIES you did not even remotely opt in to. Absolutely not. I’d like to remind you that you were *ten* when your brother was born. You are not his mom.

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        2. MigraineMonth*

          From these two letters, it seems as if OP understands the stresses of motherhood far more than an older sister should. OP, your mother is trying to abdicate responsibility for raising your brother and make you do it (then undermine you). If you want resources for dealing with it, this is called parentification and is a recognized form of child abuse. The statement that you have it so easy because you can “just give your brother to your mom” is an objectively batshit statement for this situation. That complaint would make sense if you were the primary parent or at least a co-parent, but *you have zero legal or social responsibility to take care of your brother*, no matter what your mother says.

          You are not your brother’s keeper, you are not your brother’s caretakers, and you are *not* your brother’s mother.

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        3. Worldwalker*

          I’m sure the mother doesn’t understand the stresses of, say, skydiving. That doesn’t mean that she suddenly becomes responsible for what someone who’s into skydiving says or does.

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      3. iglwif*

        Yes, yes, all of this.

        Alison has written a number of times about how a toxic work environment not only makes you miserable when you’re in it but can also warp your sense of what’s normal and acceptable at work, thus sabotaging you at future workplaces also.

        That’s what your mom has done, too. (This is not entirely uncommon for oldest kids and especially oldest daughters, alas.)

        Reply ↓
      4. Totally Minnie*

        I want to talk about the “there’s no one else I can turn to for help” part of this.

        LW, in a lot of cases, the person saying this has already burned a LOT of bridges. They don’t have anyone else to turn to because they’ve already taken advantage of everyone else in their social circle to the point that those people have already cut ties. I can’t be sure that’s what happened with your mom, but her insistence that *her* son is *your* responsibility is giving me that impression. It’s a sad situation for your mom and brother to be in, for sure, but it’s not your fault and it’s not your job to fix it.

        You can’t fix things for your brother right now. It sounds like you have ideas for how you might make his situation better, but your mom won’t allow you to do those things, and at the end of the day she’s his parent and it’s her decision. I know that sitting by the sidelines and watching this happen is really hard for you. I know you love your mom and your brother and you want what’s best for them, but your mom’s choices are her choices and you can’t change them. All you can do is hold the line and be there for them in the ways that are right and healthy for you, not in the ways they want you to.

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        1. Helen Waite*

          I noticed “there’s no one else I can turn to for help”, too. Sounds to me like the OP’s mother has driven away everyone who would be likely to help.

          It’s not uncommon for people who take and never give to do exactly that, and anyone remaining is there out of obligation. The takers take advantage of the sense of obligation and bring it up any time the last one left tries to set any sort of boundary. It’s happened in my friend group in which the last friend standing ended up having the taker owing them a lot of money that won’t ever get paid back.

          OP, stand strong. Don’t give in.

          Reply ↓
        2. ubotie*

          That;s a very good point. This kid is 13 and the LW is 23. The father has been deceased for about a year now, right? But this situation with the brother’s behavior sure as heck didn’t just spring up overnight. And yet the mom has “no one” at all to help her???? She’s been a mom since 2002, had their dad as a partner up until recently, and yet has no village at all now to help??? Suuuuuuure, Jan.

          If that really is the case, do you know why? Because something is rotten in the house of Denmark and it sure as heck ain’t the OP’s “unwillingness” to “help.”

          By the way, on the one hand it is great that there is apparently no abuse reported. On the other hand–okay I kind of don’t buy that. Just based on how the mom is acting. I’m sorry but there we are.

          Reply ↓
          1. Venus*

            A lot of people think that abuse is only physical, or that an abusive parent is normal because they have always had that parent. I have two people in my circle who were older adults (in their 40s) when they finally admitted to themselves that they were emotionally and/or verbally abused as children. Talking to a therapist was positively life-changing for both of them.

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          2. Nonsense pt2*

            No sexual abuse reported, which was the concern. Their mother’s lassitude and lack of any enforcement with her son should be considered a form of abuse, but that’s a hell of a harder one to prove in a court.

            Add in unsupervised internet access and you’ve got a pressure cooker of a situation waiting to explode.

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        3. HonorBox*

          Maybe mom has burned a lot of bridges. Or she’s just unwilling to put in the work necessary to get help. I know for a fact that sometimes that help comes with a cost. Money, time, added stress, etc. Maybe all of them combined. But when you’re a parent part of your job is finding ways to make it work.

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        4. pally*

          The mother may also have “no one I can turn to for help” because she CHOOSES not to pursue avenues of help (other than to unload bro on the OP).

          I would posit that even if the mother has ‘burned all her bridges’ there are professionals she can turn to (the kid’s physician, the school, social services) for referrals to help her.

          It’s just easier for the mother to gaslight the OP.

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        1. Worldwalker*

          And should not be forced to be a mother against her will.

          The obscene 13-year-old’s mother is the person who chose to have a child, not the sibling of that child.

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      6. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Yes. All of this.
        Your mom is spouting nonsense. And regardless, none of it has any bearing on the fact that your brother cannot come hang out at your workplace after school.

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      9. metadata minion*

        that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her

        Yes, this is the difference between being a parent and a sibling.
        ___

        BOOSTING THIS. You are not your brother’s parent and should not be expected to parent him.

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      10. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        “that there is nobody else in her life who can help her,” there are far more resources (meaning even one) for parents of teens with serious behavioral issues, for widowed parents, for teens who’ve lost a parent.
        She needs to find professional help, through the doctor, through the school, through a widow/er support group. She has options that are not you.
        As much as she’s trying to make out like she is the only person in this situation in the world ever, she is not.

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    8. Laser99*

      No, it wouldn’t. However, even if it was something less dramatic—say, he tripped in your office and broke his wrist—her mom would hold it over her forever. Stand firm, OP.

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    10. Csethiro Ceredin*

      Thank you! I came here to say this. OP is not the brother’s guardian, and she is not the prospective kidnapper.

      OP, your mother sounds very good at guilt trips and I’m glad you’re starting to question her perspectives on all this.

      Reply ↓
    11. iglwif*

      It absolutely would not be your fault!!!

      You said no, he couldn’t be there. She sent him there anyway. You put him on a bus home.

      (Also, stranger kidnappings are extremely rare.)

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    12. Upside down Question Mark*

      this. I’m the oldest of six and when I was eight my dad told me that if my siblings ever did anything bad he would blame me because I was their example. well, they sure did a lot of things I couldn’t manage and that because I was ALSO my dad’s child but he was outsourcing his parental responsibilities to me. it was his choice to have the children and HIS responsibility to parent them. even once I became and adult it was not my responsibility to suddenly parent them, that was still on him. OPs mom is flailing and failing as a parent and it’s on HER to seek professional resources. Not to force sibling watch that will do absolutely nothing for his behavior. He needs intervention.

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    13. Whomever*

      (NOTE: Non custodial kidnapping is actually very rare. The chances of him being kidnapped were pretty low. Custodial kidnapping is a whole separate thing but not relative in this case)

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      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        100%. This is not something that merits much concern.
        Plus, if the brother got kidnapped, odds are the kidnapper would let him go within a couple hours for being unpleasant.

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      2. Worldwalker*

        This is true. The overwhelming majority of kidnappings are the results of custody disputes. When we think “kidnapping” we think of a creepy guy in a white van, snatching a kid off the streets, not a parent not returning the child after visitation, a non-custodial parent inducing the child to flee with them, that kind of thing. But the latter is orders of magnitude more common.

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      3. Irish Teacher.*

        And a non-custodial kidnapping, presumably by a stranger, of a 13 year old, old enough to fight back or shout out “this is not my dad” or otherwise draw attention to the situation, from a bus that the kid was not even expected to be on, so it couldn’t be a planned kidnapping, at a time of day when presumably there would be a reasonable number of people around is just…ridiculously unlikely.

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        1. Kevin Sours*

          I don’t know when we got the idea that 13 year old needs to be directly supervised by an adult every single minute of the day or catastrophe will result. But this kid should be able to take care of himself for a few hours. And if he can’t that’s… not OP’s responsibility.

          I mean, yes bad things can happen. They can happen to adults wandering about by themselves. But this isn’t a helpless toddler.

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    14. Lemons*

      Yes, OP, please hear us all when we say EVERYTHING your mom said was wrong and/or manipulative. Google parentification if you haven’t already!

      “I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood” of course you do, she’s been attempting to make you a second mom to this kid for how long? Plus, you can be empathetic to her struggle without giving in to her unreasonable demands.

      “that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault” nope, you’re not the one who left a kid on a bench and drove away.

      “that there is nobody else in her life who can help her” I highly doubt this, you’re just the most convenient/easy for her to manipulate.

      “it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her” uh yeah, because he is her responsibility.

      “I never hang out enough with him anyway.” Here, she is chipping away at your independence. It’s normal for adult siblings to not see their kid siblings as much anymore.

      OP, I’m sending you a thousand hugs. Maybe hop over to Captain Awkward for more advice about the family dynamic part of all this. Stay strong and good luck! You’re not an uncaring monster just because you don’t want to become a de facto mom.

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      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Maybe she *is* the only person in her mother’s life because she’s pushed everyone else away with her shenanigans. Still doesn’t make it the LW’s job to step in!

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      2. Antilles*

        It’s normal for adult siblings to not see their kid siblings as much anymore.
        Especially when we’re talking about a ten-year gap from 13 to early 20’s. You’re in a totally different stage of life, with different interests, a different day-to-day lifestyle, different stressors, different mindsets, etc. You’re not going to hang out as much any more because your stage of life is just so different.
        Later in life that 10 year gap loses relevance, but when one of you is barely entering middle school and the other is a college-graduated adult working full time? That age gap might as well be the Grand Canyon.

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    15. Worldwalker*

      Crime is the fault of the criminal. Period. End of sentence.

      Just because there is something you could do to reduce the risk of that crime doesn’t mean it’s your fault if you don’t do it.

      For example, I could reduce the chance of my car being stolen if it never left my house. That does not, however, mean that if someone (who can drive a stick shift and wants a Honda Civic that’s old enough to run for office) steals it from the Walmart parking lot, it’s somehow “my fault.” It’s not. Crime is the fault of the criminal, not the victim. Or the victim’s older sister.

      You’re agreeing with your mother because she’s raised you to agree with her. As the saying goes, your mother knows how to push your buttons because she installed them. But she’s wrong here.

      If your bother were to be kidnapped, it would be the fault of the kidnapper. One might argue that your mother had some liability, too, since she — the parent of a minor — deliberately put your brother in a situation that left him vulnerable. But no how, no way, would it be your fault.

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    16. Christmas Carol*

      Anybody remember the O. Henry story, The Ransom of Red Chief? I think anybody who would kidnap your brother would quickly try to bring him back.

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    17. boof*

      Right. What if the bus had crashed before it got to work; would that be mom’s fault? No, the “lightning strike” unpredictable bad thing happening scenario is the fault of whoever did the bad thing (if it is a thing that is done rather than a random accident), not the fault of everyone who did a reasonable thing but then something unpredictable happened (ie, butterfly effect stuff). I understand that one might feel guilty because “if only I knew I would have done something different” but the point is that you don’t know/control the future and there’d be no reason to think the bad thing would happen (and it obviously didn’t / could just as easily happen anywhere else anyway)

      Reply ↓
    18. HB*

      Sometimes when I suspect that my way of thinking has been twisted such that I’ll start believing things as “objectively true” even though I feel like they aren’t… I’ll try to imagine how I’d respond if a good friend was describing the same thing to me. This can be crucial in situations involving family because no matter how old you get, you can’t shake the power dynamic that developed when you were a kid.

      Your mother can’t magically shift her negligence onto you like a hot potato. You told her no, and she ignored you. She created the situation, not you. She’s responsible for the consequences of her actions, not you.

      Responsibility requires either affirmative action, or complete and utter lack of action in response to knowledge.

      If upon being alerted to your brother’s presence you shrugged and said “Eh, he’ll live”, then continued on with your day and never checked on him again then you would have taken on *some* responsibility, but the majority of the negligence still belongs with your mother.
      He’s her child, not yours. He’s her responsibility, not yours.

      The stresses of motherhood are *her* stresses, not yours.

      If and when you decide to help your mother, that is an act of kindness. It’s a favor, not an obligation. It sounds like your mother has you thinking it’s the latter and she’s wrong. As I said, family stuff can get weird because there is sometimes the *social* obligation to help your parents, but just like any social contract, it’s not one sided. The reason that setting boundaries really isn’t easy. Your mother has been violating her side of the social contract, and therefore putting the barrier in place requires pushing back/refusing to do things you’d previously done. It’s a bit like that expression about how when you’ve been experiencing privilege, equality can feel like oppression. Your mother has been running all over you and it doesn’t matter if she did it intentionally or with malice or anything like that. What’s important is re-establishing an equilibrium where you can be an *equal party* in the relationship.

      Reply ↓
  2. Pippi's mom*

    Great job, OP! Seconding Alison’s statement that boundaries are for you. You can’t control what other people do, just what you do.

    Also, one thing your mother said was not objectively true–if your brother had gotten kidnapped, it would not have been your fault. You are not his guardian, it is not your responsibility to take care of him AND you were clear with your mother from the start that he couldn’t show up.

    Reply ↓
    1. Old Med Tech*

      OPs brother verbally harassed a co-worker the short time he was sitting outside the door. If he stayed he might have done more of the same and ended up in trouble. That would have been bad for OP and her family. OP this is not your problem. I am sorry you are going through this.

      Reply ↓
  3. Project Manager*

    My mom is a narcissist too – talking about it in therapy and reading books (I recommend Will I Ever Be Good Enough by Dr. Karyl McBride) has really helped me in reconciling my feelings about setting boundaries. Your mother might be in a tight spot, but you need to look out for you (and my God it would NOT have been your fault if he was kidnapped, sheesh). Good for you for standing your ground, and good for your boss and coworkers in supporting you.

    Reply ↓
    1. Cat*

      I’d like to add to the book recs, if that’s okay. Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson can be really helpful for people with… parents like ours.

      I also really wanna second Alison’s excellent advice that your boundaries are intended to help YOU! When you said it didn’t help your mom or brother I was briefly confused, because of course it didn’t! I’m sure what would help them the most is to have full control over your every movement, but that’s not what’s gonna happen. Hang in there & keep being great!~

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonym*

        This book was very helpful to a close friend, and helped me understand their experiences better. Definitely a good read.

        Reply ↓
    2. Good Enough Now*

      I enjoyed some parts of Dr. McBride’s book and have recommended it to others as well. Just wanted to flag for OP that while it’s a good read, I found much of the advice geared toward older women whose mothers have perhaps already passed away and are now reconciling current impacts of past experiences. It took therapy to help me navigate narcissistic abuse I was experiencing in real time and I recommend that for OP, too.

      Reply ↓
    3. ferrina*

      I went the YouTube route and recommend Dr. Ramani’s YouTube channel, and Patrick Tehan (his channel is about childhood trauma, which can overlap with the narcissistic parent)

      Reply ↓
  4. Bitte Meddler*

    This is NOT objectively true!

    ” … that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault, that there is nobody else in her life who can help her, that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her, and that I never hang out enough with him anyway.”

    Holy smokes!

    Your brother isn’t your child or your responsibility. He’s your mother’s child and responsibility!

    You aren’t “giving him to her” he already ‘belongs’ to her! He is her responsibility!!

    It’s not your role or your responsibility to hang out with your brother! Your mother is trying very, very hard to push her parenting role off onto you, and you seem to be buying it.

    STOP!

    Please, for the love of yourself and your brother, do not let your mother convince you that you are responsible for him. That’s 100% her job as HIS MOTHER.

    Reply ↓
    1. ThatGirl*

      While I think this is a bit harsh on a young person who’s clearly struggling with internalized guilt, it’s also true. OP, your brother is not your responsibility; he is your mother’s. You are not obligated to spend time with him simply because he’s your brother. And you definitely can’t and shouldn’t be his parent.

      Reply ↓
    2. Reba*

      LW even though you are grown, you might find it interesting to read about parentification.

      Clearly your brother is acting out and your whole family is struggling and grieving. But it’s not on you alone to fix. It’s not a requirement, nor can you.

      Keep building on your own strength and healing. We are rooting for you!

      Reply ↓
      1. Worldwalker*

        So much this.

        “Refusing to take” is not the same as “giving.”

        If someone refuses to take a thing from me, whatever that thing is (including custody of a child) that’s a very different thing than them giving me that thing.

        Reply ↓
        1. ferrina*

          “Refusing to take” is not the same as “giving.”
          Yes yes yes! I hadn’t thought of it in these terms, and I love this.

          “You refused to take this grenade” is very different from “you gave me a grenade”

          Reply ↓
      1. Bette Middler*

        100%. Instead of doing the thing parents are supposed to do — act like an adult and find resources for your child — she has pushed everything onto her daughter (“Whew! Daughter can just do all the things I don’t want to do.”)

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      2. Where’s the Orchestra?*

        Former teacher driven out of teaching by parents like this mom……

        SAY THIS LOUDER, This MOM is the reason she doesn’t have help because she’s not showing to anyone that’s she’s taking her sons creepy and inappropriate behavior seriously. (Based on what we know from these posts.)

        Reply ↓
    5. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      100%. And if the brother wants to spend more time with the LW, he has choices about how he behaves and how he treats her.

      Reply ↓
    6. Two-Faced Big-Haired Food Critic*

      1. OP doesn’t understand the stresses of motherhood. Perhaps that’s all the more reason why she shouldn’t be in a parental role.

      2. Someone could have kidnapped Brother. Who would he **let** kidnap him?

      3. Mom has no one else in her life to help. Perhaps there’s a reason for that, that mom sees every time she looks in the mirror.

      4. It’s easy for OP not to care because she can “give” brother to mom. Already covered; mom is the one doing the “giving”. Or “dumping”.

      5. OP never hangs out with Brother enough anyway. Any changes in their relationship will have to come from Brother.

      Anyway, well done, OP!

      Reply ↓
  5. Pastor Petty Labelle*

    Let me repeat the advice – Boundaries are for you.

    Not your brother, not your mother, you. If they cross your boundaries, then you have to act. You can’t just ask them to respect your boundaries. Boundaries are about what you will do if crossed. Such as CPS will be called.

    There is no point in discussing this with your mother and trying to get her to understand your boundaries. She’s gonna do what she’s gonna do. You can’t change her, you can only change your reaction to her. Which in this case — Stating I am not discussing this, I am telling you that brother is not coming to my office.

    Not your job to figure out the parenting for your mom. It’s rough since your dad died I am sure. But your mom’s solution to then offload all the parenting to you is not a workable solution.

    Finally, your brother needs some serious help if he is making comments so bad they can’t be printed to complete strangers.

    Reply ↓
    1. Putting the Dys in Dysfunction*

      Mother is a master manipulator. OP, always keep that in mind whenever you to her about your brother (and about many other things!). She knows you’re responsible, she knows you care, and exploits those for her own ends.

      She’s exploiting your care for her (you don’t know how difficult it is to be a mother). She’s exploiting your concern for a brother (he could be kidnapped).

      If you’re a Tolkien fan, think of Wormtongue. Or think of the Facebook postings from Russian bots, or anyone else with an agenda that they’re willing to push any and all buttons to achieve.

      Don’t fall for it.

      Reply ↓
    2. Observer*

      You can’t change her, you can only change your reaction to her. Which in this case — Stating I am not discussing this, I am telling you that brother is not coming to my office.

      Exactly.

      In a perfect world you would be able to get her to see reason. In the world we live in, you will save yourself a LOT of grief if you don’t even try. Just come up with a clear and unambiguous response such as “No, brother cannot come to my office” and just keep repeating that. And if your mother pushes, hang up the phone or leave the house.

      Finally, your brother needs some serious help if he is making comments so bad they can’t be printed to complete strangers.

      Yup. To the point, where calling CPS might not be the worst thing. SOMETHING is well and truly wrong, whether it’s abuse at school, abuse at home, too much of the ugliest part of the internet, or something else. And CPS might be the only way to figure out what’s going on.

      Reply ↓
      1. ferrina*

        In a perfect world you would be able to get her to see reason. In the world we live in, you will save yourself a LOT of grief if you don’t even try.

        Captain Awkward has a great line for this-
        “Reasons are for reasonable people.”

        A reasonable person hears your no. They might try to find a workable compromise, but they ultimately respect your autonomy and right to make your own decisions.
        An unreasonable person will change reality to find a reason why you absolutely must do thing their way. Giving them reasons means giving them ammunition- they will try to minimize your reasons, or see them as obstacles to be overcome (like the mom calling the workplace). For these people, the answer is “no” then end of discussion. (Or if you are in the mood for a fight- “Nope. Cuz I don’t want to. Yep, I’m selfish. Totally a terrible person, and I’m sure I’ll die alone. Cool. Have a nice day”*click*)

        Reply ↓
    3. Calyx*

      I wish we had “like” ability in this chat (no shade, Alison, you’re amazing), because this comment and the reply are both 100% on.

      OP, decide what your boundaries are and start enforcing them. Like: “we’ve discussed this and I am not going to talk about it any more. If he comes to work, I call CPS. If he harasses my coworkers, it’ll be the police.” Then hang up. If she calls back, mute her. When she tries every way to get in touch with you, don’t respond.

      Your job could be on the line here. It’s great that they’re supporting you, but if it puts your coworkers at risk, then they might have to make tough decisions.

      Reply ↓
  6. Zona the Great*

    More than getting kidnapped, I’m worried this kid will get himself slapped across the face or worse. If it is something so bad that Alison wouldn’t even print it here, I assume it would be bad enough that he faces scary consequences beyond just CPS.

    Reply ↓
    1. Dahlia*

      Stranger kidnappings of (I’m presuming here) white able-bodied heterosexual teenaged boys are so extremely rare that I doubt most people could name two.

      Being maced because you said something extremely offensive to someone who thought you were going to hurt them, is not as rare.

      Reply ↓
      1. RabbitRabbit*

        Agreed. I kept forgetting that he’s 13. He’s not a little tyke, he’s a (young) teenager with a foul mouth.

        Reply ↓
      2. AJ*

        I can only name ones that happened in movies or TV shows. (Maybe we can blame CSI and Law&Order for the Gen X certainty that every kid is about to be kidnapped the instant they walk down the street alone. Me, personally, I am more worried about bears than kidnappers.)

        Reply ↓
      3. Someone Else's Boss*

        I had the same thought. This child is not in danger of being kidnapped, he’s in danger of being assaulted.

        Reply ↓
    2. Mango-mama*

      I’m also concerned about this comment to an adult woman as well as the allegation of assault in the first letter that the brother needs some serious therapy and intervention of his own. Those are problems for him and his mom to figure out of course but this is where I so wish there was a better mental health option that would be affordable for a single mother. I could definitely see this situation to CPS or the cops, neither of which are well equipped and resourced to handle a struggling teen. The path from misogyny to violence is well documented.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        It sounds like his school is already involved and taking things seriously; hopefully they will be able to connect him to the mental health resources he needs before the cops get involved.

        Reply ↓
      2. Worldwalker*

        I’m far less concerned about the “struggling” teen than I am about his potential (and possibly past and current) victims.

        Reply ↓
        1. Mango-mama*

          I am very concerned about his victims and his well being to prevent any further victimization and escalation.

          Reply ↓
    3. TayLovesTacos*

      Right? This kid is a walking lawsuit. Rather than deal with him and try to correct his behavior, the mother is pawning him off and absolving herself of all parental responsibility. One day, he will go too far, get expelled, arrested, sued, what have you.

      Reply ↓
      1. Zona the Great*

        We need to bring back the Beavis and Butthead warning. “Some of these things can get you hurt, expelled, arrested, or possibly deported. To put it another way, don’t try this at home”.

        Reply ↓
    4. hillia*

      This. If he’s that prone to making weird obscene remarks to total strangers, the most likely outcomes are a) physical retaliation from the recipient b) physical retaliation from the recipient’s friend/partner/indignant bystander or c) law enforcement involvement. The third option could go terribly, terribly wrong. This is not OP’s problem to handle, it’s Mom’s, and she needs to handle it.

      Reply ↓
    5. Paint N Drip*

      Totally agree – sounds like brother is more likely to get his teeth bashed in saying weird stuff to people than to be kidnapped. And he has a phone!
      It seems like OP’s mom is kinda narcissist-coded, and I find it interesting that mom is using a threat/risk that’s really more applicable to a small child than a preteen/teenager (because they’re easier to tug at the heartstrings, or because mom really doesn’t have a grasp on brother’s development?)

      Reply ↓
      1. Karo*

        I think some moms just forget that their child is *their* baby, not *a* baby. My mother once called my brother to warn him about a white van driving around our town supposedly snatching kids…my brother was in his mid-20s; he was not the demographic for this threat.

        Reply ↓
    6. Elbe*

      I wouldn’t be surprised at all if adulthood hits this kid hard. His behavior is likely to lose friends, get him fired from jobs, get him kicked out of places, and probably even get him arrested.

      If he’s not receiving any discipline or guidance for this behavior at 13, when he’s a minor and his behavior can be controlled to some extent, he’s probably going to be blindsided by how severe the consequences can be the second he turns 18.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Kulprit*

        I hope that he doesn’t become a further danger to others, or get himself hurt. He’s rapidly leaving the “obnoxious child” years where he might be given some grace.

        Reply ↓
        1. Elbe*

          Agreed. He’s already approaching tried-as-an-adult territory for certain offenses.

          I find his behavior very concerning. I am genuinely worried for the girls in his class. If this is how he’s acting to a grown woman, what is he doing to his peers when there are no adults around? If what happened was bad enough to get him banned from activities, what happens when he targets someone vulnerable who doesn’t feel able to report him? 13 is still a child, but it’s an age where kids can do serious psychological damage to others.

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          1. pope suburban*

            I agree, this has the potential to have the police involved, and quite rightly. I think this kid needs professional help, but I also think it’s not on OP to get that for him – nor do I know if she’d even be able to, as she is not a parent or legal guardian. I’ve seen far, far too many kids, especially young boys, fall down some awful rabbit holes due to neglect and unsupervised internet access. If this kid keeps on down that path, he’s a risk to his classmates and others. That makes me sad, but I know I cannot do anything about it personally, and that OP is limited in her ability to do things too. I can only hope that if he has such a run-in with the law, they get him into some kind of diversion program that actually helps. That’s about the best I can envision in that scenario, and I hope that if things go that way, he does get connected with resources before he can do real harm.

            Reply ↓
      2. ferrina*

        It sounds like he’s getting some discipline- the school is involved, and OP is calling out the behavior. It sounds like the mom is the one turning a blind eye. This situation could go either way- either the brother grows some common sense (he’s 13, so he could hit that mental growth spurt) or he ends up in a lot of trouble

        Reply ↓
  7. Kippu*

    OP, you do not owe your mother or your brother anything. You do not owe your brother care and you do not owe your mother obedience. Frankly, parents foisting their younger children on their older children is abusive for all the children involved.

    Reply ↓
  8. KeyokeDiacherus*

    OP, you were fine and not a bratty teenager. We are often our own worst critics, and your mother knows all the buttons to press to make you second guess yourself. Good job on standing up for yourself and setting boundaries.

    Reply ↓
    1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      There were so many misconceptions in this letter, but this one is important. OP, you are not a teenager. You are not a brat. You are an adult with adult responsibilities and adult control. That means you can choose not to engage with someone who isn’t listening or is being unreasonable. Even your mom.

      You were totally reasonable to end the call. It was your mother who was being demanding and unreasonable, not you. Ending an unproductive conversation is a sign of maturity and allows you both to try again later when maybe things will be calmer.

      Try to imagine if someone else was arguing with you that way. You wouldn’t feel like you were a bratty teenager if a pushy salesperson wouldn’t take no for an answer and you hung up on them.

      You’re doing a great job learning how to stand up for yourself. Keep going!

      Reply ↓
      2. MigraineMonth*

        So true. Your mother *is* a salesperson, trying to sell you on taking sole caretaking responsibility for *her* troubled son (though of course she will also undermine you if you try to enforce any restrictions or consequences).

        Use the same tactics you would use with a pushy salesperson: You can say no and not give any reasons to argue with. You can hang up. You can mute or block the number (temporarily or permanently).

        It’s not bratty or immature. Please believe all of us that your mother’s behavior is outrageous, bratty and immature. It’s also pushy and manipulative. Holding firm with “No” and hanging up or cutting contact is the mature, adult, responsible way to handle unreasonable people.

        Reply ↓
    2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Yes, this. Choosing to hang up a call rather than continue to suffer her abuse is not childish or bratty. You’re choosing to take care of your own well-being. You do not owe her access to you to be abused.

      Reply ↓
  9. Stuart Foote*

    I don’t think there is much chance of salvaging this relationship–I think the only question is whether OP will get pulled down in her mother’s dysfunctionality.

    Reply ↓
    1. Antilles*

      I agree, because “salvaging this relationship” would require the mom to care about OP and that relationship, acknowledge OP’s perspective, and respect OP’s boundaries.

      Reply ↓
  10. PegS*

    Thanks for the update, and I applaud you for standing your ground. I also have a mom who never takes “no” for an answer, and it took a long time for me to be comfortable with setting strong boundaries. Good job!

    Reply ↓
  11. Jam on Toast*

    I’m so sorry to hear that your mom escalated this and ignored your clear and reasonable instructions about not caring for your brother at your workplace. Looping in your manager was the right thing to do and I’m glad they were supportive.

    And while your brother’s offensive comments were certainly upsetting and you might be worried about how your brother’s verbal harassment of your co-worker might affect how you are perceived at work, it may be helpful to reframe this incident as one more independent data point that supports his need for significant and immediate intervention by a specialist. Ultimately, your mom may continue to ignore these behaviours but you can reassure yourself that your concerns are valid and your perception of this difficult situation is reasonable and accurate. I know that doesn’t make what sounds like a really tough family situation easier, but I hope that offers you some small modicum of comfort and reassurance.

    Reply ↓
  12. Mystik Spiral*

    To the LW re: boundaries: I have an example from my life… My younger sister was my best friend for YEARS. She was kind of a turdy little kid, but once she got to be about 17, she was just very cool. Fast forward several years, and I am an alcoholic (sober now for years). SHE finally set a boundary that she would not see me or talk to me (outside of family functions, where she noted it would be nothing more than a polite hello) until I got myself into recovery. She was tired of watching me hurt myself and decided she would no longer do it, for her own sake.

    Did this boundary make me happy? Hell no. Did it help me in the long run? Yes! I missed my relationship with her so much. It’s not THE thing that made me finally get sober, but it most definitely contributed. I think what Alison says about your boundaries is spot on… Boundaries are for YOU, but in many cases, can be positive for the boundary-settee in some circumstances.

    Congrats on sticking to your guns! He is not your kid and not your responsibility to be a supplemental parent when you just cannot.

    Reply ↓
    1. Silver Robin*

      thank you so much for providing a positive example from “the other side” of the boundary, so to speak, and many many congratulations on getting and staying sober. <3

      Reply ↓
    2. Csethiro Ceredin*

      That’s a great example. It wouldn’t be good for OP’s brother to hang around an office unsupervised and being inappropriate with people, any more than it would be good for OP.

      Congratulations on your sobriety and self-reflection, Mystik Spiral!

      Reply ↓
  13. Angstrom*

    Your mother called your workplace and lied about being a job applicant so she would have ammunition to use for arguing with you.

    That is NOT normal.

    Reply ↓
    1. Laser99*

      Yes. It also bolsters my opinion that this boy is more troubled than even OP realizes. Her mother seems desperate to unload him.

      Reply ↓
      1. A. Lab Rabbit*

        It could be that he is troubled simply because his mother is a terrible parent. That trouble doesn’t just come out of thin air most of the time.

        Reply ↓
        1. Starbuck*

          Mom is definitely not doing what needs to be done here, clearly, but also not every unsupervised teen boy is going to turn into a serial sexual harasser. I wish I could think of examples of teens showing this level of behavior that were successfully turned around, and what it took to make that happen, but I can’t. Sadly it seems this is how predators are made – no one holds them accountable to change or manages to treat whatever the underlying issue is until it’s too late.

          Reply ↓
          1. bamcheeks*

            I can think of quite a few examples. He is obnoxious and he probably needs more support than he’s currently getting, but I do not think we need to start imagining terrible awful futures for LW’s brother because he’s acting out as an eighth-grader who lost his dad a year ago.

            Reply ↓
            1. Observer*

              It’s more than a year ago.

              Also, he’s not just “acting out”. He’s been kicked out of extra-curriculars for harassing girls. If you think that schools take such a harsh approach lightly, think again. Which means that his behavior was *bad* and also *sustained*. He also randomly accosted a strange woman with a comment that was so bad that Alison censored it. And Alison is the furthest thing I could think from a prude. When she calls something obscene and bizarre, I believe her!

              I mean, yes, it’s obvious that the kid is not getting the support he needs but he is waaaay past the point of some support to deal with normal struggles.

              Reply ↓
              1. bamcheeks*

                I’m not saying it’s normal cool behaviour, I’m saying we shouldn’t be talk about how he’s obviously going to grow into a predator and that it’s impossible that he could be “successfully turned around”. That’s a horrendous way to talk about a kid.

                Reply ↓
          2. Observer*

            Mom is definitely not doing what needs to be done here, clearly, but also not every unsupervised teen boy is going to turn into a serial sexual harasser.

            Mom is not just “not doing what she needs to.” She is actively mishandling the situation. She is also modeling *terrible* behavior. I mean lying to find information that she can twist to cudgel the LW with?

            Which leads me to another thought. LW, do *not* take your mother’s word about *anything* related to your brother. I don’t know what your mother has to say about possible abuse, but I would not trust it at all. So even if she claims that all is well at home, you really have no way to know.

            Reply ↓
        2. JB*

          I’m wondering if he got therapy after losing his father, and how his relationship with his mother was after that. His smartphone addiction doesn’t help as he’s being shaped by what are clearly bad influences and both he and his mother need outside, professional help to address the issues present.

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    2. Ellis Bell*

      The thing that can be seen from space is that Mum is not as delusional as she makes out. She lied about it being a situation affecting a potential single mother employee, because she knows no one would agree to pin this on a sibling. She knows she has the sole responsibility for her own child! She didn’t call up and say “Hey, I’m Sara’s mother and in a bit of a childcare fix; is it ever okay for siblings to look after their kid brother for a few hours after school?” That would have been an obvious overstep, but an oblivious one. Whereas lying and twisting the facts of the situation, and pressuring the receptionist to say whatever she needed her to say, to pressure her daughter, shows she knows exactly what she’s doing; fundamentally neglecting her son by pushing him into untenable situations with unwilling people, failing to teach him proper rules, and pushing him into a position where he can’t possibly get the attention he needs; his mother’s support towards him having any kind of trusted independence. Not to mention the totally uncaring stance, and parentifying of OP! That’s a type of abuse that really keeps on giving. OP it was very difficult, I’m sure, to pull away from all this. This internet stranger thinks you rock.

      Reply ↓
      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        This is a great point. On some level, she knows she’s not being reasonable. Otherwise, there would be no need to lie about any of it.

        Reply ↓
  14. Meaningful hats*

    Hi, OP. Oldest daughter/child in a dysfunctional family here. I became my younger sibling’s primary caregiver at age 8.

    It’s normal and natural to feel bad for your mother and brother for the situation they’re in and it’s understandable you feel guilty for not being able to help them in the way they’re requesting. But please, please, PLEASE remember that you are not responsible for them. You are responsible for you and looking out for your own well-being. Putting yourself first in this situation is NOT selfishness, it’s survival.

    Keep surviving, keep thriving, keep holding your boundaries (it’s so hard!). You’re doing amazing. I’m rooting for you.

    Reply ↓
  15. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself, especially since everything she said is objectively true

    But everything she said is not objectively true. Certainly not that it would have been “your fault” if your brother had been kidnapped (!!). My goodness.

    I hope you can hold to your boundary. Your mom will keep pushing on it and trying to undermine your confidence around it. She’s unreasonable and will pretend you’re the one who is bananas. You are NOT the one who is bananas here.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, “you don’t understand the pressures of motherhood” is said to someone who isn’t a mother, in the context of “so volunteer to be his after-school carer with your lack of understanding” which just makes no sense. While OP might not have ever been a mother, she understands who’s responsibility this is and has a better handle on things. I’d argue OP’s mother is projecting.

      Reply ↓
      2. Archi-detect*

        yeah I have always hated the “you don’t understand ___” as a trump card- it can be helpful to gain understanding of someone else’s situation, but when it is said like that they don’t want you to understand, they want you to yield to their trump card

        Reply ↓
  16. Guest*

    LW, your mom is the bratty teen in this situation, not you! You are a self-sufficient adult and have to look out for yourself, which includes not letting anyone undermine your standing at work. Do not cave to your mom’s unreasonable demands. Cut off contact completely if she persists.

    Reply ↓
    1. Kay Tee*

      Right?! Mom saying nobody understands me and nobody else can help… THAT’S the kind of all-or-nothing catastrophizing that an immature teen engages in.

      Reply ↓
  17. Persephone Mulberry*

    Hear, hear to Alison’s reminder that boundaries are about protecting your peace.

    See also: reasons are for reasonable people. Your mother is not being reasonable.

    especially since everything she said is objectively true — that I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood, that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault, that there is nobody else in her life who can help her, that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her, and that I never hang out enough with him anyway.

    The message that you need to internalize so that you can continue to hold the boundary that you’ve established is: You are not [Brother’s] parent. None of those things that your mother is laying at your doorstep obligate you to parent your sibling so that your mother doesn’t have to.

    Reply ↓
    2. merula*

      I’ll echo it: reasons are for reasonable people.

      “No, Mom, Brother can’t come to work. My manager will call CPS.”
      “He cannot be here.”
      “No, that’s not possible.”
      “I can’t help you with this.”
      “No.”

      These are all complete sentences. They’re going to feel incredibly mean if you say them out loud to your mom, but they are reasonable and fair, which she is not.

      Maybe get a friend to role-play practicing this? Stay strong, we’re rooting for you.

      Reply ↓
  18. Orange Cat Energy*

    LW, you’re mom saying your brother could have been kidnapped and it would have been your fault…No, it wouldn’t. You’re not his parent or guardian. Yes, you did turn him away, but he’s old enough to go home on his own and you waited until the bus came. I guess the only other things you could have done different were 1) watch him get on the bus (but he could get off anytime before getting home), and 2) calling your mom and telling her to pick him up (giving her the chance to correct her actions, even though you know she won’t). But even though you didn’t do these things, you aren’t your brother’s parent/guardian and you wouldn’t be responsible for anything that happens to him.

    Reply ↓
    1. Worldwalker*

      The mother did, after all, tell him to go from school to the LW’s workplace. So if he’d been kidnapped on that trip, it would be the mother’s fault? Somehow her “logic” doesn’t seem to extend to that; the risk of kidnapping apparently only exists when the LW doesn’t obey her orders.

      Reply ↓
  19. Bruce*

    OP thanks for the update. I’m so sorry that after losing your father that you have this to deal with now. It is good your manager and coworker have your back. I feel bad for your brother too, he is clearly one troubled child, but letting him act out at your office will not help anyone! Best wishes to you…

    Reply ↓
    1. Freddy*

      Yes, I think the brother is crying out for help. Doesn’t change anything for OP but I do feel for the brother.

      Reply ↓
  20. Falling Diphthong*

    It’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her.
    OP, literally this is what one signs up for when one has a kid.

    There’s this whole trope where the fun sib/aunt/etc who babysat a lot, even for a week-long stretch, has their own kid and: No one comes to take the kid away! It used to be you had to be on until 10 pm, or until Sunday around 4, and now no one relieves you. The trope being that you recognize that your brain had apparently internalized that the In Charge Person would eventually come and take the baby, and is slow to adapt to the truth that you are now the In Charge Person.

    (I was the cool aunt. My sister-in-law was the fun older sibling. We both experienced this. We then powered on and raised our kids into adulthood, which is what people do.)

    Reply ↓
    1. iglwif*

      THIS.

      (I remember that feeling vividly — my spouse was at work and my visiting mom was 18 storeys down doing laundry and there I was, in the middle of the living room with this brand-new person, trying to absorb the reality of being the In-Charge Person for her for the next 18-ish years.)

      OP, your mom is clearly having a hard time, and so is your brother. I was the older sibling in a single-parent household myself and i know how much all of this feels like yours to manage and fix, but it is not! You didn’t create the situation. You are not your mom’s co-parent. You are allowed to live your own life.

      Reply ↓
  21. Tammy 2*

    Not one single thing that happens with your brother is your fault. You are not his parent. He is not your responsibility.

    Reply ↓
  22. INeedANap*

    OP, this would obviously drop a bomb in your family dynamics, but it may be time to point out her own parenting issues and how they negatively affect your brother — namely, her permissiveness and passivity. She wants you to have responsibility over him but no authority. That’s untenable. She either needs to let you discipline him, or she needs to change the way she parents. I am sure that her life is hard right now, but dumping her problems on you is not the right way to deal with it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Andie Begins*

      I found myself thinking it is profoundly sad that this kid who lost his dad is obviously acting out for attention and his mom is putting your job at risk to make that your problem instead of hers, and guilt tripping *you* about her dereliction of duty!

      Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      I half agree. OPs mother needs to find her own parenting course/therapist/help with his extreme behaviour and put her permissiveness and passivity etc to pasture. However OP shouldn’t weigh in with any discipline, acceptance of responsibility or even voice her own take and opinions though; that would simply enmesh her more, and make her an enabler every time mum throws up her hands. I’d tell her to get appropriate professional help and leave it there.

      Reply ↓
      1. Venus*

        Yes, the OP has said previously that they’ve talked to their mother about needing to set better boundaries with her son and that hasn’t worked. At this point they shouldn’t try again as it will only enmesh them more.

        Reply ↓
        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          This. Opening any discussion about the brother will probably cause more problems and solve none of them.

          Reply ↓
          1. anon here today*

            Correct. I can hear the “Oh, so you think you know everything about being a parent?…” rant beginning from here.

            Reply ↓
  23. jay*

    Poor LW, that’s a tough situation :( Alison is 100% right that it’s ok to set boundaries for your own good, but I understand that you might not be able to adopt that line of thinking overnight, so if it helps: you know the safety videos they play on airplanes, “put your own oxygen mask on first before assisting others, even children”? That’s where you are right now. Your mom and brother have complicated problems that are not going to be quickly or easily solved. If you want to help them, the best thing you can do is get *yourself* to safety first, even if that makes your mom feel abandoned.

    Babysitting your brother at work won’t fix whatever’s going on with him, but it will get you fired, and then your family will be exactly where it is now except that you’ll be unemployed. That’s not fair to you, but it’s also just not an effective strategy.

    Reply ↓
    1. Worldwalker*

      So totally this. There is nothing the LW can do to fix what’s wrong with the brother — that is, that can only be, all on the mother. Having the situation continue exactly as it is except with the LW unemployed would not change anything for the mother (or make it worse; it wouldn’t surprise me if she bums money off the LW) or the brother. And if the LW had to move back into that dysfunctional household because she’s lost her income, it will be 10x harder to get a new job … “you can’t go to that interview, you need to stay home to watch your brother.”

      Reply ↓
  25. Nonprofit Lifer*

    Oh my word I’m so sorry for the OP. That’s a tough situation, but yes, please keep working on boundaries for your own sanity.

    And I hope you can prevail upon your mother to get your brother into (more?) therapy. This is a very young teen boy who can’t encounter a female stranger without making horrible comments; something has gone very, very wrong here. He needs help from an expert to get on the right track and he also needs to be wholly restricted from access to the internet.

    If your mother resists, please find for her the many, many articles on how toxic the internet is for young men and how quickly and easily they can fall down a rabbit hole into truly vile content. Many parents, particularly of boys, don’t realize how bad it is for young men and how many predators are out there looking for them. Sexual predators are better known, but the ones hawking nihilism, extremism, misogyny, and self-loathing are just as effective at ruining a young life. I hope he gets the help he needs.

    Reply ↓
    1. Sugarholic*

      Seconded! This kid needs help with social boundaries and probably also processing dad’s death. Hopefully mom doesn’t pull the wool over her eyes.

      Reply ↓
  26. Another Ashley*

    I’m am so sorry you are going through this. Many families expect that older children, especially the eldest daughter, to become their co-parent and it’s completely unfair. Being the eldest daughter and second oldest cousin, I spent half my childhood babysitting kids that were 2-12 years younger than me.

    I also have a strong willed mom and have learned that for most issues no argument will convince her. So I just say no and give the most vague response I can come up with:
    “No. I’m not interested it”
    “No. I can’t take that on”
    “No. I don’t want to discuss it”
    “No. I already explained why”

    When I can I stop at the no.

    Reply ↓
    1. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      LOL, are you me???

      All of this, seriously. “Sorry, I can’t” has become a very important refrain for me.

      Reply ↓
  27. Alex*

    Well done OP. As a child of another narcissistic parent, I know how hard it is to set limits on what you will put up with from your mother, even when your limits are *totally reasonable*.

    I think one myth about setting boundaries is that once you set them, you will feel good about them. Sometimes it still doesn’t feel good! Someone shouting at you and telling you you are being selfish for not doing what they want doesn’t feel good, but it is necessary in order to keep your own sense of self (as well as keep yourself behaving professionally in your job, in this case!). But that guilty feeling doesn’t mean you are doing something wrong, it means you have been conditioned by your parent to feel this way. Keep strong!

    Reply ↓
  28. caro*

    Piling onto what many others have already said in hopes that sheer volume of comments will help counterbalance the dysfunction your mom is causing here.

    Everything that you said is objectively true, is actually objectively UNTRUE (other than you not understanding the stress of being a mother, which does not in any way justify anything that your mom is doing here). Your brother is your mom’s responsibility, full stop. She is stomping all over your boundaries, putting you in an impossible situation, and jeopardizing your source of income.

    You seem to have a good heart and she is using that to try and manipulate you. Don’t let her.

    Reply ↓
  29. Elizabeth West*

    She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself, especially since everything she said is objectively true

    No, they’re really not true. She said those things to manipulate you into doing what she wants you to do. I mean, could someone kidnap your brother? Sure. Is that likely to happen? No, it’s really not. Would it be your fault? Hell no. This is Drama Llama 101. Been there with a dramatic parent, done that, got the t-shirt. If you’re on the phone with her and she starts up, it’s perfectly fine to say, “Okay, Mom. Gotta go now, later,” and end the call.

    And keep in mind, you’re also modeling how to set boundaries for your brother. I hope they both get the help they clearly need, but that doesn’t have to come from you disrupting your peace or risking your job.

    You did well in holding your ground, OP. And good for your work for having your back.

    Reply ↓
  30. Sparkletoots the Pink*

    LW, I’m not going to tell you what your boundaries are, because only you can do that, but I find it very distressing how much of the parenting work your mother is trying to put on you (“it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her” sounds almost like she’s graciously caring for *your* child).
    I’m glad that your manager seems to have your back! Hopefully all of you can figure out a solution that lets you actually do your job in peace and allows your brother to thrive as well.

    Reply ↓
    1. Irish Teacher.*

      I didn’t think of it until you said it, but yeah, that sentence really sounds like the LW had a child at a young age and the mother was helping out and was complaining that the daughter was not taking full responsibility but was relying too much on her own parents.

      If anything, the opposite is true here, it seems like the LW’s mother is not taking full responsibility for her son because she can “give him” to the LW.

      Reply ↓
  31. Heffalump*

    When the receptionist said single mothers sometimes brought children, no doubt the subtext was “in a pinch.” I’m sure the LW’s mother heard what she wanted to hear.

    Apropos of the original post about brother being kicked out of extracurriculars for sexual harassment: Would he actually have to have groped girls to be kicked out, or would merely sexual remarks do the trick?

    LW, congratulations of how you handled this!

    Reply ↓
    1. bamcheeks*

      It really depends how on-it the school is regarding sexual harassment, with possibly a side helping of which girls have the popularity/credibility/privilege to get a teacher to take them seriously. There’s no way of guessing at the details, and it’s not something LW can do anything about either way.

      Reply ↓
  32. Another Ashley*

    One more thing. It may not help but I would still point out that your brother’s behavior problems may at least be partly related to your mom’s behavior. She won’t take no for an answer. Tried to whine and bully you to get her way. Kids don’t do what you say they do what you do.

    Reply ↓
  33. Falling Diphthong*

    I get frustrated when people tout about boundaries on the Internet as if it’s trendy and easy, but I still feel like my boundaries don’t help my mother or my brother.

    First, I absolutely get what you are saying about the instant “Cut all contact!” advice. And you should consider that the spaces where it is flung about are populated by youngsters like your brother, pretending to be 40 year old NYT best-selling authors who set a hard boundary every time someone in their life looks at them funny, because that is a really appealing fantasy when you are 13.

    The boundary is for you. Because you can only fix so much–some things are not in your power to fix, and some things are not your job to fix.

    Sometimes your boundaries help other people because that person finds that “I broke it, now you fix it” no longer works, and they have to mature into being a person who doesn’t break things, and if those things break anyhow can fix them.

    I feel for your brother, but you have neither the all-powerful mind control nor the legal power to cause him (or your mom) to behave differently. You set boundaries to protect yourself, in part so that you will have some reserves to help when you think that is warranted. (I think both your Mom and your brother figured “What’s OP going to do, say no?” and now they have learned that you will, in fact, say no, and are not an eternal pushover.)

    Reply ↓
  34. Ms. Yvonne*

    I know we don’t do therapy around here, but were i to be asked to recommend a book, it is Lindsay Gibson’s “Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents: How to Heal from Distant, Rejecting, Or Self-Involved Parents”. … then a bunch of other therapy-y things (that I’ll surely hold back on, I don’t want to fall into the armchair therapist role here).

    Reply ↓
    1. Cookie Monster*

      At first I was confused by your comment because I’ve seen a lot of commenters mention their therapists. But you mean commenters shouldn’t try to be the LW’s therapist so now I get it. I’ve seen that book recommended a lot – I might give it a try too.

      Reply ↓
  35. Miss Kitty*

    I wonder if there’s a Big Brothers/Big Sisters program he could go to. It really sounds like he needs some kind of mentor or outside adult to help reinforce that his behavior is not okay. OP handled the situation well, and honestly hanging up the phone was the right thing to do.

    Reply ↓
    1. Judge Judy and Executioner*

      I’m a former big sister, and her little brother would be excluded from the Big Brothers/Big Sisters program due to his history of sexual harassment and inappropriate behavior.

      Reply ↓
    2. iglwif*

      Given what OP has told us, I strongly suspect this is exactly the kind of program he’s already been excluded from.

      Reply ↓
    3. Starbuck*

      Mentoring seems like a good idea to keep him on track once he’s behaving more reasonably, but I don’t think intervening in sexual harassment is within the scope of that program – that’s a therapy-level issue I fear.

      Reply ↓
      1. JB*

        He’d benefit from a counsellor too. He’s clearly got a mindset that needs to be unpicked before it can be healthy, and knowing the cause is the first step to working a solution for everyone’s benefit.

        Reply ↓
  36. Allegra*

    It is an incredibly hard thing you are doing and you are doing it extremely well, LW. I’m sorry you’re dealing with this from your family, but you’re doing the right thing for yourself and your brother (and your colleagues, if that helps to hold on to as well; they deserve a workplace free of harassment and distraction and you are giving them that). I was the emotional load-bearing wall for my family for a long time, and when I finally set some boundaries, it was a hard adjustment and it felt like I was being cruel to them by doing it, but it was great for us in the long run. I can’t promise that will be the case for you, but I CAN promise that you’re not being cold or insensitive. You’re doing something hard and necessary for your well-being, and you’ll get through this. What your mother said to you was not objectively true–it would not have been your fault if something happened to him, and from your letters it is very clear that you care about your brother and want the best for him, and your mother as well. Wishing you all the best.

    Reply ↓
  39. Sam I Am*

    “I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood”

    I wanted to call this out specifically because it may be the one true thing your mom said, but that’s how it should be! Why should you understand the stresses of motherhood? You’re not a mother! Your mom is responsible for her son, not you. Is being a working widowed mom stressful? I am absolutely certain that it is. Does that mean it’s your responsibility to supervise your brother at your job? No. One does not follow from the other, no matter what your mom thinks. Her consent is not required for you to assert boundaries, and you are doing amazingly for a young person in a very, very tough situation. Sending good wishes for a bright future!

    Reply ↓
    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Agreed. I’m a mother, and yes I’m sure there are folks who don’t understand how stressful it can be. But that doesn’t mean I get to foist my child off on them!

      Reply ↓
    2. Beth*

      Echoing Sam I Am’s great point!
      “Her consent is not required for you to assert boundaries.”
      Keep this in your mind daily!
      We’re all cheering for you.

      Reply ↓
    3. Starbuck*

      “Her consent is not required for you to assert boundaries, ”

      Totally! LW realizing it was futile and hanging up the phone is a great example of this. More of that. The difference between “you can’t talk to me that way and I’m going to try to explain why to justify my boundary and convince you why you should treat me better” vs “because you spoke to me in this way, I’m ending the conversation. bye”

      Reply ↓
      1. Worldwalker*

        Exactly.

        Boundaries aren’t something you persuade other people to respect — they’re actions you take when certain conditions occur. IF-THEN. “IF you tell me X, THEN I will leave the conversation.”

        Reply ↓
  40. Middle Aged Lady*

    I applaud yoy, OP. It is so hard to set boundaries with family, especially when you know they are in a bind. Your brother obviously needs professional help that is beyond your expertise and whatever help you provide, it absolutely cannot happen at your workplace.
    No matter how stressed your mom is, she lied to someone at your work, badgered them, went against your express wishes, blamed you, talked ugly to you, and put your brother in a bad situation by dumping him at your work, where he made a coworker uncomfortable, and causing stress for you.
    I know this is hard, but you have to save yourself. What can you realistically do in this situation? If this were your best friend, how would you advise them? A whole life of putting up with your mom has primed you not yo see how outrageous she is acting. And when we are people who care, it’s hard! But yoy must care for yourself more. Good luck!

    Reply ↓
  41. Knitting Cat Lady*

    I have a suspicion that brother is hanging out in the manosphere. Maybe listening to Andrew Tate. DO NOT google him if you don’t already know who he is.

    Brother needs a therapist, an internet diet, and role models to counter act the drivel he’s learned online.

    LW, your mother’s parenting problems are NOT your problems.

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      Brother needs a good firm consequence or three. Pretty sure if I’d pulled anything like that on my parents I would be cutting the 3 acre lawn with a push mower for the rest of the summer.

      Coworker’s non-reaction to what he said might was probably the best thing that could have happened. I bet he’s used to getting a ton of reactions either from people he’s offending or cronies he’s hanging out with and a “what?” is not on his list.

      Reply ↓
  42. Juicebox Hero*

    No, it would NOT be your fault if anything happened to your brother.

    You’re not unquestioningly obeying your mother, so she’s going to try every tactic there is to make you feel lower than whale crap so that you’ll cave in. That’s a game my mother played on me until she day she died and you get full kudos from me for getting out and establishing the boundaries you already have.

    Reply ↓
  43. BigLawEx*

    LW I’m so sorry that you’re going through this. I have my own dysfunctional family and it took me years of therapy to see the dysfunction, then set boundaries, then help myself. It’s not an overnight process.

    Nothing that’s happening is your fault. Also, what’s going on is not yours to fix.

    Reply ↓
  44. Jennifer Juniper*

    OP, your mother is a grown woman. She can Google solutions for troubled teens. She can stand her ground and not let Brother Dear use her phone.

    This mess is on her. Not you. Her.

    Reply ↓
    1. Vipsania Agrippina*

      She could also have not parentified OP and made her the scapegoat, so she could have some adequate help from OP now.

      Reply ↓
  45. Mouse named Anon*

    I am so sorry you are going through this OP. I think you did a great job of standing up for yourself and setting boundaries.

    I am sure it has been addressed with your Mother regarding your brother, but it sounds like to me he needs some counseling to help with some things he is going through.

    I hope you also seek some counseling too, if you feel like it could help.

    Best Wishes to you.

    Reply ↓
  46. Mie*

    This internet stranger just wants to say that I am so proud of you for saying no to your mother and ending the call. That was brave.

    Reply ↓
    1. Worldwalker*

      I think pretty much this whole comment section full of Internet strangers (and the roughly, from my own past experience as a forum mod, the 10x number who just lurk, not comment) would agree with you.

      Reply ↓
  47. Seashell*

    A 13 year old boy may have worse judgment, but they’d probably be more likely to be able to fight off a kidnapper than me (a short adult woman.)

    If Mom needs a babysitter, she should pay for one. Her fake phone call to the office is completely off the wall.

    Reply ↓
  48. Anna*

    First, seconding all the people telling you that your mom is manipulative and wrong about pretty much everything, and that you would deeply benefit from therapy to help you untangle all of it.

    Your mother, quite clearly, does not care about either your well-being or your brother’s well-being, either in the short run or the long run. She cares about controlling you, and she cares about arranging things with him so that she has the least effort possible. She also cares that everything bad can be blamed on someone else (regardless of truth or fairness). She does not want to be fair, true, just, or kind, unless it directly benefits her and helps her arrange the world to her liking. You cannot change this about her. You cannot fix the things that are wrong with her. You have exactly one choice: how much you’re going to let her destroy/control your life through her selfish manipulations. That is what boundaries are about.

    Second, you might find it interesting and helpful to read Captain Awkward’s blog. They run a general advice blog that deals with a lot of people who are in unhealthy relationships (romantic, friend, family, etc.). Your relationship with your mother and brother DEFINITELY counts. I suggest that the “Boundaries” and “Parents” categories will be most helpful, but just in general, you are not alone, lots of other people have problems similar to your problem with your mother, and seeing things from other perspectives and in other circumstances might be helpful.

    Third, there’s an old blog post by issendai called “Sick Systems: How to Keep Someone With You Forever” that’s really good, that might also be helpful or interesting.

    Reply ↓
  49. Lisa D*

    I’m so glad you found this community for some validation and backup, OP. My sister is similar to your mother in making her adult child a forced parent to her younger child. My young adult nephew ultimately had to move out of state to get out of the situation. That may be the only option for you eventually as well, so I suggest starting a secret move fund and exploring a contingency plan even if you have no desire to move anytime soon—just to know what your options are in case you reach a breaking point where you need to make absolutely clear you are not your brother’s other parent by being thousands of miles away.

    Good luck and I’m going to repeat one more time in case it helps to hear it from another stranger that parentifying a child against their will is a form of abuse. It is not your fault and it is not a normal response to the death of a coparent. Plenty of single and widowed parents raise children of different ages without forcing one child to take on a parental role for the other. Siblings are siblings, not parents. Healthy families may make older siblings babysit (at HOME) and help out, but they do not turn siblings into parents.

    Your mother asking about your brother coming to your workplace by asking about “single moms,” not siblings, really says it all. She has decided YOU are the parent in the family—not even alongside her but INSTEAD of her. This is abusive, cruel, and unfair to you. Your brother will hopefully grow up and get some serious therapy one day, but for now I wish you all the best with creating some very firm boundaries and getting much more distance from this exceptionally unhealthy relationship.

    Reply ↓
    1. Worldwalker*

      The brother will grow up, but whether he gets some serious therapy or gets his teeth knocked out by the boyfriend of the woman he just dissed in a bar is entirely another story. Frankly, I can see a lot more potential bad endings for the brother than good ones, unless the mother wakes up and starts doing her duty as a parent.

      Reply ↓
    2. Jaunty Banana Hat I*

      Yes, this. Particularly the part about how this is not the normal response to the death of a coparent. My father died when my brother and I were still kids. Yes, my mom definitely relied on me as the eldest more than she should’ve, but even so, she never, ever reached the point of trying to argue that I should be the person taking care of my brother, or that I was entirely responsible for watching him, or that she wasn’t ultimately the one responsible for him (and me).

      I had to babysit more than I would’ve liked, and I was expected to include him in a lot more activities than was ideal to a teenager, and she definitely pulled some “because FAMILY” on me, but she understood that A) I couldn’t watch him every single time she needed, B) I had work and responsibilities that did not allow me to take care of him whenever she wanted, C) it was up to her to figure out how to juggle those situations, not me, because SHE was the Mom. Not me (I also got paid for babysitting if I had to give something up/had conflicting plans I had to forego–so not every time, but at least my help and time was acknowledged as something valuable). Also, D) that it was good for him to not always get what he wanted in terms of tagging along.

      Like, there is a huge difference between watching your brother who is too young to be by himself so your mom can make a grocery run vs. watching your brother who is old enough to ride the bus alone but who can’t control his impulses enough to be in spaces with other people without being supervised. The first is a reasonable helpful thing if you are available. The second is NOT your responsibility, especially not when you are otherwise busy. If he is that troubled, it’s definitely on your mom to figure out how to get him the help he needs, and expecting you to contain that is just not fair to you OR him.

      Reply ↓
  50. Maleficent2026*

    OP, it is not your job to raise other people’s children. The fact that it’s your brother is completely beside the point. You are not responsible for him in any way. This is entirely their problem to handle, not yours. Boundaries are hard, I agree, especially with your family. But you get to say no. If they can’t handle that, then it’s their problem. You may need to limit contact and communication with them for awhile, because they have to figure out how to handle things without you being the go to “fixer”. You are in no way responsible for bailing them out of situations of their own making.

    Reply ↓
  51. C4TL4DY*

    I also came to comment about the narcissistic mother, as I recently came to the realization that I have a narc mom and this is their behavior.

    I’d like to add that the brother really needs some mental health therapy and possibly evaluations for his behavior.

    Reply ↓
    1. Elbe*

      100% agree. Hopefully these behaviors are his misguided attempts at getting attention, and he’ll learn better habits. He’s still young and capable of change.

      But change doesn’t always happen on its own. He needs therapy ASAP, both for his sake and the sake of everyone around him. It’s completely unacceptable that his mother thinks that dropping him off at his sister’s workplace is an adequate solution to behavior so bad he’s banned from school activities.

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      1. Starbuck*

        The fact that he’s making immediate obscene comments to strange adults is seriously concerning. LW, I’m so sorry – it’s got to be painful to see your family member clearly in need of serious help and not be able to do anything about it. Not that I’m saying you should try – truly I don’t think there’s anything they can do other than say how clearly unacceptable this behavior is and so she can’t have him around because of it.

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        1. anon here today*

          Yes, honestly, this was the part that jumped out. Frankly, anything the mother said to me at this point would be met with a “Yo, he needs serious interventions. He was sitting on the bench for all of five minutes when he said [insane thing]. Let me know if you want me to help find a therapist.” And then wash your hands of it.

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  52. Moonday blues*

    I think something very important gets glossed over when discussing boundary-setting: consequences.

    LW, you get to decide what your boundaries are, and you get to decide what YOU will do if those lines are crossed. Brother shows up at work again? You send him home or ask your manager to call CPS. Mother tries to argue with you on the phone? You calmly state you can’t talk about this anymore and end the call. Perhaps there are different things you can think of to do if/when Brother shows up again or Mom tries to bully you again.

    Having a plan ahead of time can help you enforce your boundaries when others push them. Practice saying a script when you are feeling calm, and you will be able to deliver that script calmly when it’s needed.

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  53. Irish Teacher.*

    She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself, especially since everything she said is objectively true — that I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood, that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault, that there is nobody else in her life who can help her, that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her, and that I never hang out enough with him anyway.

    Just because you said some of this made you second-guess yourself, I want to highlight that it is highly unlikely, to the point of being a ridiculous suggestion that a 13 year old boy would be kidnapped because he left your workplace. I mean, anything could possibly happen, but the risk of kidnap to a 13 year old boy in broad daylight, at least from a stranger, is extremely low. Like, there would probably be a higher chance of somebody kidnapping you.

    And if he were kidnapped, it would not be your fault. For one thing, if we use the yardstick that is used with regards to people like teachers, at least in Ireland, that of a reasonably responsible parent, it would be fair to say that a “reasonably responsible parent” would not be able to predict kidnap in these circumstances. You acted perfectly reasonably and would not be responsible if something utterly bizarre and unlikely happened.

    And even if the situation were a little more probable, it would be more her fault than yours. She is the one who lied to him and sent him somewhere she knew he could not stay and would not be supervised. She is the one responsible for his welfare, not you.

    And this also makes her comment about how it’s “easy for you to not care about him” ludicrous. For one thing, from everything you have said in both letters, it is obvious you do deeply care about him. Honestly, I assumed you lived at home. Given your level of knowledge about his life and involvement in it, I assumed you were living with him because I wouldn’t expect most young adults living outside the home to have that level of involvement. I started college when my sister was 14. I was home at weekends and for holidays, was home more than half the year, and I wouldn’t have known as much about my sister’s life as you do about his.

    But even if you did “not care about him because it was easy to give him to her,” well, that’s her job, not yours. Sure, it’s nice to care about people, but…that sentence makes it sound as if you are a non-custodial parent who has the “easy part because they aren’t living with the child.” He is not your responsibility in any way. You aren’t “giving him to her”. He is her child, not yours.

    Your job, to the extent you have any “job” in relation to him, is to be a sibling. To be a good example and perhaps to give him some life advice or be there to support him. It’s not to parent him or supervise him each evening.

    For what it’s worth, I think your mum has a point that he might need more supervision, but that is not your responsibility.

    Boundaries aren’t there to help your mother or brother, but I do think they will help your brother in the sense I mentioned about being a good example. Your mother will probably put the same pressures on him when he grows up as she is now putting on you and lay some of the same guilt trips and if he sees you giving in to them, it will be harder for him to say “no,” as he will have learnt that you are supposed to drop everything and accommodate mom. If he sees you saying “no” and making it clear that for example, mom cannot give him permission to go to your workplace, that he needs your permission for that, it teaches him that mom isn’t the centre of the world and can be disagreed with.

    As a teacher, I have fairly recently started to see kids coming into secondary school, about the age your brother is now, believing their parents can dictate anything to anybody and are shocked when “but my mam/dad says I can break such a school rule” doesn’t get the teacher to let them do it.

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  54. Falling Diphthong*

    OP, my husband is close to his much older siblings. His childhood best friend is close to his much younger sibling. Those relationships were built over time, with probably the least interaction happening when one was 13 and the other 26.

    The older would probably make a point to hang out when visiting home from college or first job–but that visit happened once or twice a year and involved an airplane. And the younger person was up for it and actively contributed. And no one had the sort of way-off behavior your brother exhibits.

    We tell stories about the One Magic Adult, who by taking an interest in a young person Magically Turned Their Life Around. Those resonate with us. “Eight different people tried to help Bob, and he just kept blowing things up” is also a common one, though not nearly as satisfying.

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    1. Irish Teacher.*

      I will also add that the “One Magic Adult” is allowed to have boundaries too and in this case, it may be by having boundaries that the LW will help her brother to “turn his life around,” as it will help to show him that their mother’s behaviour is not normal and that once he is an adult, he too, like his sister, will be able to walk away.

      And it might also help him to see where his behaviour is unacceptable.

      I agree that it is not the LW’s job to magically turn his life around and may not be possible, but I just wanted to add that outside of those “inspiring” TV shows and books, it usually isn’t by taking an almost parental role that the “one good adult” helps a teen to turn their life around anyway. Positive role models/mentors usually have a more subtle role and in the case of older siblings, just making a good life for themselves and giving the younger sibling and example of somebody who came through the same things they did and still succeeded in life can be a positive influence.

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  55. Her My Own Knee*

    Setting boundries is incredibly tough, especially when it comes to family. We have to do it for ourselves though, or we’ll never get peace.

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  56. Vipsania Agrippina*

    You might want to search information on parentification. It’s about making children act as adults so that the adults don’t have to, and it’s a form of abuse you can find in dysfunctional families. It seems that you mother made you the scapegoat in the family dynamic.

    You might want to scroll through Captain Awkward’s blog. She has some nice articles about how to deal with difficult parents.

    Also your mother sounds very over-dramatic.

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  57. Anita Brake*

    What in the “expert manipulation tactics??” I have some choice words for your mother. 1. Are you crazy? 2. My brother is YOUR child, not mine. 3. You need to parent YOUR child, not me. 4. It would NEVER be my fault, in any case, if something bad happened to my brother, unless I actively caused something bad to happen. 5. It would ESPECIALLY not be my fault if you sent him to my office after I explicitly asked you not to!

    Good wavy gravy. OP, as so many others have said, none of this will ever be your fault. Your mom is asking too much of you. I know it’s rough because your dad passed away, and I’m so sorry about that. But as difficult as it is, she needs to be the parent to both of you. A suggestion, if you’d like: Big Brothers. They may be able to spend some quality time with your brother (and I’m not saying your mom isn’t spending time with him; I’m sure she’s grieving and swamped) and help him find some appropriate direction. I’m sorry for all you’re going through. I hope it gets a little easier for everyone very soon!

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  58. shar*

    Boundaries can be so hard and you did great. Just want to add that you deserve that care you gave yourself. You deserve to have a private life and a workplace on your own terms.

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  59. ThisIsNotADuplicateComment*

    LW – if your mother rented a billboard and put her credit card number on it for everyone to see it wouldn’t be your fault her card number was stolen because you didn’t get that billboard taken down.

    I’m sure that feels like a silly metaphor, but the same is true for your brother. Your mother – his mother – is the one creating this situation. If something bad happened it would be because she created the situation, not because you didn’t work yourself to death trying to clean it up.

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  60. Dawn*

    “…that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her…”

    Caring about him is not your job. “Having” him is not your job. (You can “give him” to her? Looking after him is her responsibility!)

    This is pretty classic DARVO, which I recommend you read up on. Don’t give the guilt trip another thought; your mother keeps trying to make out that caring for your brother is your responsibility, when it’s just not. Period. End of conversation. You are not the boy’s mother, and you have no intention of being the boy’s mother, so don’t let her make out that you should be.

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  61. Testing*

    OP, you’re doing great! Keep on keeping those boundaries, you’ll get used to it (and hopefully, so will your mom).

    Also, your boss is great! Good sleuthing on the what the receptionist had actually said… And I can only imagine that you being a responsible staff member and communicating well about this whole issue will make you look good in the eyes of your boss and colleague.

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  62. Aerin*

    Captain Awkward is another excellent advice columnist (who I found through this site!) and she’s talked a lot about dealing with difficult parents and setting boundaries.

    Enforcing your boundaries is always hard, because if you didn’t have someone gleefully trotting all over those boundaries, *you wouldn’t need to enforce them in the first place.* Someone being unhappy about that does not mean that you’re doing it wrong or that it’s not worth doing.

    The thing is, your needs are your needs, and even if you’re suppressing or ignoring them to keep someone else happy, they don’t go away. You just get more and more exhausted, and the resentment grows even if you never acknowledge it (hell, especially then). So it reaches the point that you’re always simmering with that anger even if you don’t recognize that’s what it is, and you associate that feeling with the person. Eventually it boils over into a toxic sludge that pretty much eliminates the chance of the relationship ever recovering; the good memories get swept away and buried under all that festering pain. (Ask me how I know!)

    You’ve got to put on your own oxygen mask and recognize that it is not your responsibility to make your mother’s life easier. She has options here. She may not like those options, as they are no doubt much more difficult than just letting you fix it. But she still has choices about how to handle your brother, and she has choices about how to treat you. Hopefully she can start to make better choices–but that’s just not gonna happen until the choices she’s making now stop working in her favor. That’s the part that you can and must control. It’s not gonna be an easy road, but I think you can do it. And I promise that it is possible to build a solid relationship with a difficult parent, and it’s also possible to reach the point that you have to let the relationship go and make your peace with that. I’ve experienced both.

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  63. Elbe*

    I come from a family of boundary-stompers, and this pattern of behavior is very familiar to me. The LW handled everything here very well, and this was the best outcome possible here, given the unreasonableness of everyone involved.

    it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her
    This is epic, epic levels of projection. SHE is the one trying to foist her responsibilities off on the LW, not the other way around. She’s operating as though the LW is his parent (even referring to a “single mother” in the phone call to the office), even though she was the one who chose to have this child.

    I say this gently, because I wish someone had said it to me when I was 21: unreasonable people don’t magically become reasonable when they get older. You are not the first person to point out your mother’s illogical, entitled, immature, and unrealistic perspective. The reason that she remains this way at her age is because she is actively resistant to changing for the better. It is incredibly sad, but this is unlikely to change with time. Your best bet is to put your emotional effort into creating distance (physical and mental) between you and her, not trying to fix her. Save yourself, because you are worth saving. I’m sorry that you are in this situation. Good luck with everything.

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    1. Elbe*

      * Was supposed to say everyone else involved . Just wanted to be clear that I think the LW and her coworkers are doing a great job of managing this.

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  64. Kermit's Bookkeepers*

    Manipulative people are really, *really* good at figuring out what your weak points are and exploiting them to win an argument. When your mother said “lot of things that made [you] second-guess [yourself], especially since everything she said is objectively true,” it’s notable that every argument she made was not designed just to prove an objective point, but designed to make you feel guilty. Those are not the actions of someone capable of a reasoned discussion with you, because they are not using fair tactics to win the argument.

    I’m really, really proud of you LW. Setting boundaries is difficult in any circumstance, but setting them against your parents is uniquely difficult and terrible. You’re doing a great job.

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  65. Jennifer @unchartedworlds*

    Oh, OP, my heart goes out to you.

    My attention particularly snagged on “it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her”.

    “Give him to her” is a loaded framing. It implies he was your responsibility in the first place. If she weren’t trying to “give him to” you, then the question of you “giving him to her” wouldn’t even arise.

    Often in a sibling relationship there is some practical caring in the mix (esp older to younger), along with feelings of love and feelings of annoyance :-) But it isn’t the same thing as being a co-parent, which feels to me like the position she’s trying to push you into.

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  66. Now a boundary setter*

    The update we were all hoping for! Keep up the good work OP! it’s not easy but you are doing it. Some reframing could really help you, especially since your mother is trying to present a version of reality that is unfamiliar to everyone else.

    Your boundaries are not a choice between helping yourself or helping your mother/brother. They are a choice between remaining in the disfunction your mother is perpetuating or getting out of it. You can’t change their lives because they don’t want that.

    Your work place has become a place where you can interact appropriately and live a life you deserve. Your professionalism in this difficulty will no doubt make you stand out positively to your manager. Here’s hoping you can spend your time at work focused on your own professional goals and personal development. As a fellow survivor of questionable parenting, I’ve found I’m often calmer in a crisis and able to manage an emergency. I’d rather not have gained these skills the way I did, but I’m using it to my advantage.

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  67. ShazamIT*

    Boundaries are self centric, not other people. They’re actions you take. Example,

    “Don’t call me 6 times in a row while I am at work” Versus “If you call me six times in a row I will block your number”. See the nuance??

    “If you send my brother to my office again I will call CPS” is a great boundary! It’s an action you can take, it’s direct, and it avoids offering any excuses or softening language.

    “Mom if you keep arguing with me about this I will hang up. This is not negotiable, brother cannot come to work with me” and then hang up.

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  68. Molly Millions*

    I can understand how this burden must be weighing on you, but please don’t let guilt trips make you question yourself. None of your mother’s arguments are “objectively true,” under any scrutiny.

    1. This has nothing to do with you “not understanding” motherhood. The vast majority of mothers, if polled, would not consider this a reasonable childcare solution.
    2. There’s no reason to believe your 12-year-old brother was at risk of being kidnapped. Lots of kids his age take the bus alone without incident. If he can’t be unsupervised for any length of time without endangering himself, that just underscores why he can’t be left at your office while you’re busy working.
    3. You simply can’t help her with this, no matter how much you care. What she is asking you to do is impossible.
    4. You don’t have the option to “hang out” with him while you’re at work. Spending more time with him wouldn’t alleviate the need for supervision during the workday, which you cannot provide.

    You’re not being selfish, LW, because there isn’t even a choice here. This is a problem you can’t possibly solve without risking your livelihood, housing, and independence. I hope there is an avenue available to your mother to get your brother support- I think he needs more help than either of you can give.

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  69. Starbuck*

    Sorry LW :( it’s wild that your mom can’t accept that your brother is clearly banned from your workplace because he immediately sexually harassed your coworker. That she thinks it could possibly still be an option shows she’s unable and unwilling to be reasonable. Guilt trips suck, sounds like she’s pushing every button she can think of to make this your problem when it’s not.

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  70. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    OP you did everything right. You are not being a brat to your mom. She is treating you like a child and expecting you to do what she wants.

    I know it’s not your job, but could there be an after school program, especially for troubled teens, that you could refer her to? I’m thinking something like boy’s and girl’s club. That way he would get the adult supervision he needs, plus some good role models and such.

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    1. Worldwalker*

      Apparently he’s been banned from some type of afterschool program because of his behavior, and given that he immediately said something so vile Alison couldn’t repeat it here between the time he was dumped at the LW’s workplace and the time she got him on the bus out of there, it’s very likely that he’d be likewise banned from any other program he could find.

      He needs professional therapy.

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  71. Rex Libris*

    “She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself…”

    My guess is she’s spent years training you to second guess yourself and accept her judgment over your own, and blaming you for situations that she created. That is, by definition, what manipulative abusive people do.

    Trust all of us random people from the internet… Your mom is much more toxic than you’re seeing, because you’ve gotten used to it. If it were me, I’d go low or no contact, and find a therapist ASAP.

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  72. RiparianLibrarian*

    While I second all the advice about setting boundaries and recognizing your mother’s dysfunctional behavior, I want to add a cautionary note: You don’t have to justify your actions or positions. Your boundaries are not up for negotiation or discussion – that is your cue to turn off the phone and get back to your life.

    You don’t have to give a reason for any of your decisions.

    Your decisions are yours, and your mother is not entitled to get inside your decision process and attempt to invalidate them. Argument and persuasion aren’t ways that you will influence your mother, and your mother isn’t entitled to use argument or persuasion on you.

    Setting boundaries is tough, and can be wearying. But the fastest return on your effort is that your head belongs to you – you don’t have to host an avatar of your mother in there. Your head, your boundaries, your peace.

    For what it’s worth, a BS in Psychology.
    Would you like fries with that?

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  73. Sharon*

    OP, there’s probably no magical argument that will make your mom stop flipping out and say “Oh yeah, got it, that makes sense” so stop trying to find it. You aren’t responsible for her feelings. You can just state your decision and leave it. Hanging up and declining to continue to argue isn’t bratty, assuming you’ve first calmly stated that your decision is final and you don’t want to argue about it.

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  74. ubotie*

    that I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood, that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault, that there is nobody else in her life who can help her,

    NONE of that is “objectively true,” OP, at all, fullstop. I don’t mean to pile on but if that’s what it to takes to override your mom’s brainwashing (and I’m sorry but it is brainwashing). You don’t need to understand the stresses of motherhood because YOU are NOT a mom–and most certainly not of your BROTHER.
    If your brother had been kidnapped, it would NOT have been your fault. It honestly wouldn’t have even been the fault of your useless mother (although her actions would have made it easier to provide opportunity for the kidnapper). Do you know whose fault it would have been? THE KIDNAPPER. Also, unlike 1980s “stranger danger” PSAs, it’s extremely rare that some rando kidnapper would be hiding in the bushes outside your office 24/7 just waiting for a rando 13 year old to be sitting there, unattended. And even if that were true, and someone did get kidnapped? It’s still the SOLE FAULT OF THE KIDNAPPER.

    Your mother has people in her life who can help her but refuses to avail herself of those resources–counselors, therapists, and yes even CPS.
    NONE of the resources available to her are “verbally and emotionally abuse my 23 year old daughter, ruin her current job, parentify her, get her to parentify her 13 year old delinquent brother, completely abscond all maternal duty so that said daughter can raise my 2nd child for me, ruin any future jobs she’ll have, etc.”

    So again: none of that BS she laid on you was true, at all, ever, anywhere. If she wants that signed, sealed, and delivered, I’ll gladly do so. I’m sorry she’s grieving the loss of your dad (as are you by the way!), I’m sorry she’s going through some stuff viz a viz your brother (as you are you by the way!), and I’m sorry that life just really sucks for her right now (as it does for you too as far as this situation is concerned). But I’m more sorry that you are being made to feel like this is all your responsibility when it is so not, at all.

    Do you know what else I’d be happy to sign, seal, and deliver to your mom? The (very correct) prediction that your brother is going to keep writing ever bigger checks his butt can’t cash and that a *judge* is not going to accept “but his adult sister won’t just take over as his mom!!!” as an acceptable defense or excuse. Your brother’s actions have already brought some pretty serious consequences for him at school. Now he’s disobeyed you by showing up at work, then lied to the receptionist, then disobeyed you again and came back to the worksite. THEN he mouthed off to your coworker and it’s only the fact that she:
    A) apparently didn’t catch what he said
    B) felt bad for your whole situation

    that things didn’t spiral into far worse consequences. The next time he mouths off to someone–including a coworker of yours–he might not be nearly so lucky. Heck, the next time he mouths off like that to an adult or peer at school, or does something physical, he could wind up expelled– or in jail, or the hospital. All it takes is saying or doing the wrong thing to the wrong person at the wrong time. What’s your mom gonna do then? I hope she’s saving up now for a decent defense attorney who’s good at plea bargains for juvenile offenders.

    I’m sorry to be so strident about this and I don’t have a great answer for “make your mom do her GD job as a parent, FFS.” I wish I did. I really things do get better from here,without you having to set yourself on fire to keep your family warm (do NOT do that, please. They are absolutely capable of finding their own matches, heating sources, etc).

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  76. pally*

    Stick firm to your boundaries, OP.

    Your mother has options. Clearly, she chooses not to explore them. That’s not on you.

    Just some examples: She can ask the school for help or referrals for help. She can get your bro a babysitter (yeah, that won’t go over well with bro… too bad). Maybe there’s relatives that can come stay with him. Or she can send him to them maybe? Maybe ask a neighbor to look after him. She can ask your bro’s doctor for help or education or referrals. Seems to me he’s either being an immature 13-year-old or he has need of counseling for acting out. Which is entirely something your mother needs to deal with. Not you.

    See there’s lots of things she can do. She chooses not to do any of these things.

    Protect yourself. Keep to those boundaries.

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  77. Saturday*

    Hi OP – I have a really, really hard time standing up to controlling family members, so I’m full of admiration for how you stood up to your mom on this one.

    As other people have said, she’s presenting you with a distorted view of what’s going on. She’s trying to make you feel guilty for being your brother’s sister instead of his mother, but that’s not a situation you created.

    And though you can help out your single-parent mom, having your brother come to work with you is really way outside the norm for a workplace. She’s behaving as though you’re being awful for saying no, but you owe it to your employer and your coworkers (and yourself!) not to do this.

    Stay strong!

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  78. Lola*

    [i]My only substantial argument was that having my brother at my job would’ve helped my brother less, and I’ve been holding onto it for personal reassurance. [/i]

    Let me add at least one other argument: having your brother at your job would also drag you down, at no real advantage to anyone.

    You did a good job enforcing your boundaries! It takes a lot of effort to start doing that. And I’d like to repeat what Alison said: the boundaries are for you. They may benefit them in the long run, but that’s a positive side effect, not the main reason for them existing.

    Being able to prioritize yourself (which is akin to having a good sense of self worth) isn’t selfish, it’s a basic human psychological need. Don’t let your mother convince you that’s selfish!

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  79. Debby*

    LW, a lot of great things have been said already, I just want to point out one thing for you to take away from this-THE FACT THAT YOUR BROTHER SAID SOMETHING AWFUL TO A CO-WORKER OF YOURS IS ENOUGH VALIDATION THAT YOU DID THE CORRECT THING. Don’t let your Mom say anything to make you doubt that fact.
    That incident was seen by others, so it wasn’t your imagination, or just your opinion. And they thought it was horrible as well. So no need to doubt yourself.
    Take care, and we all wish you the best.

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    1. HonorBox*

      Great point. All of the nonsense about what could have happened is just nonsense. I’d point out to mom that within 20 minutes of the brother’s arrival, he was saying something inappropriate to an adult. Rather than spin out hypotheticals about what could have happened, a good parent would have been embarrassed, angry, and apologetic about that situation.

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  80. Unpleased*

    OP, I just want to encourage you to keep putting up those boundaries. This came up before, but if she were to cause so many problems for you that you lost your job, I suspect that would be a feature of her manipulation, not a bug. One of the most important things you can do is preserve your independence from her. Keep building strength. Can you also ask your boss to forbid brother and mom from being on the premises? That’s a boundary you can set without any notice to your mom.

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  81. Not A Manager*

    My heart goes out to you. Please get some good support for yourself. Your norms and sense of appropriate family behavior have been so warped that you are tying yourself in knots for things that are absolutely not your fault and not your responsibility. Your internal dialogue is heartbreaking.

    “She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself, especially since everything she said is objectively true.” No, all of it is objectively false, or completely irrelevant.

    “I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood.” True, but irrelevant. You’re not your brother’s mother, and you’re not your mother’s mother. My guess is that you have a pretty good sense of your mother’s stresses anyway, since she reminds you about them all the time. Understanding someone else’s stress doesn’t make it your job to relieve it.

    “Someone could’ve kidnapped my brother” – WOW! – “and it would’ve been my fault.” OH MY GOD.

    “That there is nobody else in her life who can help her.” If this is true, one might ask why. If she treats other people the way she treats you, this is not a surprise.

    “That it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother” – WOW – “because I can give him to her” – because he is her child and not your child?

    “That I never hang out enough with him anyway.” I can’t imagine why. Dealing with a difficult teen is hard enough. Dealing with a difficult teen and a co-dependent parent who undermines you at every turn is impossible.

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    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      What sticks out about the kidnapped thing is it sounds like the brother takes the city bus. So he can take the bus home or to OP’s work and not be worried about being kidnapped but because she sent him home now he’s at risk of being kidnapped?

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      1. Longwing*

        Also, who sent them there? Did OP send her brother to her work?

        Nope.

        So if there were a risk (there’s not) who’d be the one who exposed him to that risk?

        Oh. Right.

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      2. Elbe*

        This stood out to me, too. Why is the ride home dangerous but the ride to the LW’s work fine? When something is that illogical, it’s pretty safe to assume it’s a manipulation tactic.

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  82. HonorBox*

    OP, thank you for the update. Good on you for standing your ground. You handled this perfectly!

    I do want to address something, in hopes that it can give you some peace. You wrote several things your mother pointed out that you say are objectively true and made you second guess yourself. The only thing that is objectively true and fair is that you don’t understand the stresses of motherhood. Yes. The rest of the things that she said are inflammatory and manipulative. She is the parent and cannot expect you, the sibling, to be the parent for your brother. She has options. They’re probably not easy or simple options. But they’re options. That’s parenting. Sometimes we have to make adjustments that are not easy for us. You told your mom that your brother can’t show up at your office and he did anyway. She put those wheels in motion and is trying to manipulate your feelings because, for whatever reason, she’s not able to find another solution.

    Not only did he show up at your office, going against what you had said, but he also said something awful to your coworker. This situation could have put YOU in peril, too, and clearly your mom is not willing to appreciate the impact all of this is having on you.

    I’m sorry this is happening, but give yourself grace because you’ve done everything right.

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  83. Nonsense pt2*

    Just to add on to everyone’s great advice, once you start setting and enforcing your boundaries, be prepared for the “extinction burst.” You got a taste of it with that call from your mother – you enforced your boundary and she immediately began berating you and break you down. There will be more of that, probably louder and longer and with all kinds of verbal abuse thrown in too for good measure. You might end up caving in. That’s normal and okay. You’re dealing with family, which is always complicated, and you’re dealing with someone who has been using you as a scapegoat for a long time now. It takes time to unlearn the behaviors they trained into you, and that will most likely mean some failed boundaries. The key thing is to recognize that it happened, forgive yourself for it, and then try again. And again, and again, and again, until you survive the extinction burst.

    It might just be the hardest thing you ever have to do. It won’t feel good. It’ll be so tempting to just cave. But it’s the best thing you can do for yourself.

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  84. Aggretsuko*

    OP, sometimes I have to scream and/or hang up on my mother too. Mine also will not listen to me or take no for an answer when she wants what she wants. And people lecture me about boundaries too and it makes me insane. This is because they come from families where you say no and the other person listens, rather than ups their assault. I seriously feel like I have to set off a nuclear weapon to get my mother to stoooooooooooooooop, and then we have screams and hangups and even more fights.

    Your “boundary issues” are not normal people’s boundary issues, and most people just don’t understand having to act like a bratty teen, or a complete asshole, or worse, when saying no.
    I bet in your mom’s case she won’t stop until CPS/police are called on him, because they won’t listen to anything YOU say but they might if a higher authority does.

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    1. anon here today*

      Unfortunately I have also noticed that my difficult parent acts much better when I lose my mind at them in a way that I do with no one else in my life because I’m no longer a rageball hormonal adolescent. Behaving reasonably only elicits worse and worse misbehavior, but fully hollering has been effective to an unfortunate degree.

      The worst part is that my kids have seen me lose it on said parent, but it is honestly such a sea change in effectiveness that I’m loath to take it out of the arsenal.

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    2. Bette Middler*

      If you don’t live with your mother then your boundary is literally “hang up the phone”. That’s it.

      Your boundary isn’t “I must convince my mother that what she’s asking me to do is crazy and would be mentally / physically / financially / emotionally detrimental to me.”

      Just say, “I’ve already given you my answer and that’s not going to change. I’ll talk to you later,” and hang up the phone. And don’t answer when she immediately calls or texts you. That’s a boundary. That’s an action *you* take.

      If she escalates by coming to your house unannounced and starts pounding on the door, call the police and tell them there’s someone banging on your door and yelling and you’re scared. [Source: I had to do this with my mother.] That’s a boundary. That’s an action *you* take.

      If she has keys to your house / apartment, change the locks so she can’t let herself in. That’s a boundary. That’s an action *you* take.

      A boundary isn’t “where you say no and the other person listens”. That’s a request that a reasonable person respects.

      Boundaries are for unreasonable people. You cannot change them. But you *can* change your responses to them.

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    3. Worldwalker*

      Boundaries aren’t something you try to persuade other people to respect. Boundaries are what YOU will do in certain circumstances.

      For example, one I set with my mother: “If you insist on talking about something after I say I don’t want to discuss it, I will hang up.”

      So I didn’t try to persuade her to respect my decision. I didn’t try to persuade her to do anything, in fact. She could talk about anything she wanted to. But if she chose to ignore my request to not talk about something (yes, this generally involved politics) then I would leave the conversation. It wasn’t about what she should or could or would do — it was about what I would do. IF-THEN. “IF you keep talking about something I’ve asked you not to, THEN I will hang up.”

      Boundaries are exactly for people who don’t “come from families where you say no and the other person listens” — they’re for people who come from families where the other person “ups their assault.” If you say no and the other person listens, you don’t need to set boundaries. But if they don’t listen, then you have to do something: Walk out. Hang up. Whatever. That’s what boundaries are all about.

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  85. ReallyBadPerson*

    Your mother is gaslighting you. Please get yourself a book–any book–on adult children of a narcissistic parent. You will gain insights like you’ve never had before. These will help you to establish solid boundaries. You may have to get therapy to do this, or even go low contact with your mother for a while.
    But for now, recognize that your brother is in no way your responsibility and that your mother has way bigger problems that you can solve.

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  86. Somehow I Manage*

    This is obviously a different scenario, but the situation is kind of similar, so here goes. OP, I’m reminded of something Dan Savage says when a child has parents who react poorly when they come out. If they react poorly but ultimately come around and are accepting, great. If not, your presence is something you control, so you don’t have to put yourself in a position to feel bad. Your mom has shown you something. You don’t have to put yourself in a position to feel bad. You don’t have to put yourself in a position to be manipulated. You don’t owe her your presence if she is going to treat you poorly.

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  87. Longwing*

    I’m so sorry you have to go through all of this OP, but I really need to call out some things you said:

    “She said a lot of things that made me second-guess myself, especially since everything she said is objectively true” – No. They’re manipulative statements to make you doubt yourself. There is no “objectivity” to them. Your mother is being emotionally abusive.

    Your mother is a liar. “She called your work and they said it would be fine”. Is that what she did? No. She lied. She lied to your receptionist and then she lied to you. Nothing she says is objective. Everything she says is designed to get her what she wants without respecting you in the process. That’s abuse.

    “that I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood” – Correct, because you’re not a mother. She is, and her son is her responsibility.

    “that someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault” – Did you send your son to a location where he’d been expressly forbidden to be? No? I seem to recall that you laid out specific boundaries on this and had those boundaries violated. The fault lies with your mother. What she did is incredibly irresponsible. Any harm that came to the kid would be 100% her fault.

    “that there is nobody else in her life who can help her” – This is true, and unfair, and a reflection on the terrible nature of our society and it’s social nets… it’s also not your problem. She’s responsible for her son. Not you. He’s a teenager. He can go home on his own.

    “that it’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her” – You’re. Not. His. Mother. You’re not “giving” him to anyone because he’s not your problem to solve.

    “I never hang out enough with him anyway.” – You’re a full-grown adult with a job and an apartment. He’s a teenage kid who’s being suckered in to the wrong parts of the internet and who’s lashing out because your mother is emotionally abusive (you can be sure he gets a fair measure of the same treatment you do). Even if he were well-adjusted (which he’s not) you’re at two totally different places in your life. It doesn’t make any sense that you’d spend time with someone so much younger than you. Teenagers need friends their own age. This is just one more example of her twisting things around to make you feel guilty.

    As for your comment about boundaries being “easy”, they’re not.

    You have someone who’s ignoring your needs, to the point where they SENT YOUR BROTHER TO YOUR WORKPLACE AFTER YOU SPECIFICALLY TOLD THEM NOT TO. Your mother doesn’t see you as a family member or a partner. She sees you as a useful tool to complete an objective. She’s happy when you do what she wants, she’s angry when you don’t.

    Your mother will never see this from your perspective, because your perspective doesn’t serve her goals. Setting boundaries isn’t easy happy fluffy funtimes. It’s saying “This is a line I’m not crossing. You don’t have to understand or agree. If you cross this line there will be consequences.”

    “Send him here again and I’ll call CPS” is a boundary. Was that fun? No. It’s horrid. It’s awful that you have to do that, but if you didn’t set a clear stop point with a consequence to back it up… then he’d be on that bench on Monday morning.

    In your previous letter and now in the update, you’ve repeatedly talked about how you want her to understand, how you want to craft that “perfect argument” that will show her your side of the situation. You’re approaching this from a position of empathy, which is admirable, but it’s also being taken advantage of.

    Stop trying to get her to understand. You do not need her permission or approval to live your own life. It’s hard and it’s REALLY not fun, but it’s time to set boundaries.

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    1. HonorBox*

      The “perfect argument” point is something that is important here. This isn’t high school debate. You aren’t going to get points for a well-crafted argument, nor do you need someone else to concede that you’ve made a good point.

      OP, the “perfect argument” here is the one that establishes the boundary you need to establish. For you. That’s it. She doesn’t get input into whether that works.

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  88. WoodswomanWrites*

    You’re getting lots of great feedback here.

    I want to add that I’m really impressed by everyone at your workplace. Your manager, the receptionist, your co-worker–all of this is great to read. Remember that you have that committed support no matter what your mother tries to pull on workdays.

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  89. CzechMate*

    You’ve done nothing wrong, OP. Honestly, it DOES sound like your brother needs Help with a capital H, but that’s not on you to figure out. If anything, it means you can feel less bad if your company does end up calling CPS.

    This story is creepy on so many levels. What kind of parent sends their disturbed child to a workplace after they’ve explicitly been told the child cannot be there? And then *calls the office pretending to be a job applicant to trick them into saying it’s okay for him to be there*?

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  90. Sneaky Squirrel*

    These are not objectively true by any means. These are manipulation tactics that your mother is using to guilt you so that she can defer her responsibilities onto other. An objective truth is a fact that can be proven. The objective truth here is you are not your brother’s mother.

    LW, you don’t need to understand motherhood to care about your brother. You aren’t the one raising a 13 year old child. At no point in her deciding to make and raise a child does that obligate you to a life of being a back up mother when she’s unavailable.

    It would not have been your fault if your brother was kidnapped. For that matter, it likely wouldn’t have been your mother’s fault either. However, your mother is responsible for child care for your brother; not you. It sounds like she has a solid reason to believe he needs more supervision. That’s her responsibility to make that call. The minute she chose to send him to your office when you already told her no, she chose to absolve herself from the situation.

    It’s normal to look to our families for support, but there are times you are not going to be available. While you’re working a full time job would be one of them. What she asked you to do was to drop all of your responsibilities to pick up hers. But even if you were just sitting at home alone and doing absolutely nothing, you’re still not obligated to drop your life for her responsibilities.

    Your brother is not your child to “give” away to others. He’s already hers.

    Whether or not there is a truth that you don’t hang out with your brother enough, the way to remedy that isn’t by dumping him on your work’s doorstep unexpectedly and letting him sit there and stare at you while you do your job.

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  91. ubotie*

    Has it occured to your mom that your brother’s smart-a** remark to your coworker could have very well gotten *you* disciplined at work, OP? To the point of being fired? Which would absolutely negate your mom’s “foolproof” plan to have you babysit your brother at your workplace???

    No, it probably didn’t occur to her. I won’t say why because I’m trying very hard to be kind.

    Look, having a problem child is not a crime, but doing eff-all about certainly can be.

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  92. Nice cup of tea*

    Your brother is not your responsibility.

    Its Its highly unlikely he would get kidnapped on the bus.

    If he keeps harassing women and girls I imagine the police will be involved as well as CPS.

    Do not back down. Your mother and your brother are both making bad choices. Your job is to keep yourself safe and happy. Do not let them drag you into their issues.

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  93. NotMyNormalName*

    I don’t think anyone meant to imply Boundaries are easy, boundaries are hard especially when you are new to setting them, but also the best thing you could ever do for yourself. If you have not had a lot of practice with them they are terrifying. Therapy can help you learn how to set and maintain boundaries.

    Boundaries do not require your mother to agree or approve. They are the rules you set for what YOU will do. You will never get your mother to agree with you, which is why you have to stop trying. “No I will not watch my brother while working”. No reasons, no excuses, no discussion.

    OP – do please consider therapy – both letters have a layer of misplaced guilt and responsibility.

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    1. HonorBox*

      Setting a boundary is as easy as saying “no.” But holding onto them is challenging, especially in the face of manipulation, neediness, guilt, etc. I hope the OP reads your second paragraph because that’s the thing that needs to be said. This is not an agreement. This doesn’t have to be mutual. The boundary doesn’t require anyone else’s authorization. “No” is a complete sentence, and the phone calls, texts, emails, etc. don’t have to be answered.

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    2. Elbe*

      Yes! Understanding the concept of boundaries is easy, but enforcing them with loved ones is notoriously hard.

      One of the reasons that boundaries are helpful is because of how clearly they illustrate how little to be done in some situations. When you’re doing the work to outline reasonable expectations and limits and the person still isn’t responding well to that, it becomes really clear that there’s no way to move forward with this person in a healthy way.

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  94. Observer*

    especially since everything she said is objectively true

    Oh dear! Actually *none* of that is “objectively true. Except *MAYBE* the bit about not really understanding the stress of motherhood. But, that doesn’t matter because it is *utterly irrelevant*.

    I hate to say this, but your mother is absolutely toxic. Limit your contact with her, and do NOT ever get into a discussion with her. She doesn’t tell the truth and she does not care about you in the least bit. Not in “she doesn’t love you as much as your brother” but as in “She doesn’t care what happens to you as long as things are a little easier for her in the short term.”

    That really, really stinks! But that’s on her. It is absolutely not your fault.

    but I still feel like my boundaries don’t help my mother or my brother.

    I disagree. In the long run, holding your ground is the only thing that can force the issue.

    More importantly, it does not matter! It is not your job to fix your mother or brother. Those boundaries are there for *you*. You need to hold those boundaries to keep your life from getting exploded by a manipulative parent and an out of control younger brother. Even if it does absolutely *nothing* for them, it’s fine. You still need to hold those boundaries.

    And, yes, it is totally true that it is not easy. Especially when one of the people who you are dealing with is someone who would normally have some call on you, and who also happens to be a dishonest maser manipulator. But it’s still very important *for you*. And it’s OK for you to think about yourself and do what you need to do! It is *not* “selfish or anything like that.

    “No is a complete sentence” gets thrown around a lot, and it often annoys me. But *this* is absolutely the kind of situation that this line is meant for. So it “reasons are for reasonable people.” Your mom is not reasonable.

    Two acronyms you might want to keep in mind:
    JADE – which is something you should stop doing with your mother. It stands for “Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain”. Don’t even try. She is either not listening, or listening for ways to twist what you say to make you give in.
    DARVO – That’s what your mother was doing with her supposedly “true” statements. It stands for “Deny, Attack, Reverse Victim and Offender”.

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  95. Head Sheep Counter*

    I am glad your boss and co-workers are so generous. You are lucky in that regard. That the lad was there for minutes before saying something so gross it needed to be redacted is seriously career limiting for you. You can not stick your neck out for him and keep a job. Your work would be right to bar this kid from the building.

    The readers have been great with their advice and Alison as well. Reflect on the fact that your first letter sounded so bad that we all imagined you still lived at home. I’m glad you do not… but the dynamic in your family has impacted your view of normal. I’m sorry for the grief and the stress you have all been through.

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  96. Tai*

    this reminded me of when my mom was crying about how nobody was helping her with my brother and I had to say “mom, he’s almost 40…”

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  97. Jules the 3rd*

    Internet hugs if you want them. This stuff is *haaaaaarrrrrrd*.

    Boundaries are all over the internet, but they are *not* easy. The boundary pushers will continue to test, to see if *this* is enough pressure to get you to give in.

    Hold this one hard, because you’re right: you can’t work, and he won’t be well supervised, at your job. If you want to help out your mom, maybe research whether the school has after-care or tutoring. There may also be local non-profits that have after-school homework time. I googled “after school tutoring programs” for my city and found several ones where you pay a lot for individual attention, but also YMCA and Boys and Girls Club, and there’s even a specific ‘computer lab and tutoring for low-income kids’ program.

    But this is *if* you want to help out your mom. You do not have to. Yes, it’s hard to be a single parent, and yes, your brother and mom are struggling after his dad died, but you are not in a position to give them the help they are asking for. For your own peace, you can try to divert them, but don’t give in. Good luck.

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  98. BellStell*

    OP can you block your mother on your phone and email? Read ip on narcissists and DARVO as others mention too. Good luck!

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  99. Managing to get by*

    OP, I just want to let you know that you are a worthy human being, and you can set boundaries to protect yourself even if it makes things more difficult for other people.

    You do not need to come in second (or third) to your mother and your brother. You do not need to sacrifice yourself so that they, or anyone else, is more comfortable.

    You are doing an amazing job breaking away from an unhealthy family and doing well for yourself on your own.

    Hopefully your brother will also be able to break away from an unhealthy dynamic with your mother and grow up and be self sufficient. But if he is not, that is not your fault, nor is it your responsibility.

    You deserve a good life. You deserve to be able to take care of yourself first and set boundaries with how much you help others, to be able to preserve your ability to take care of yourself. For example, setting a boundary that you will not jeopardize your employment by having your mis-behaving brother come to your workplace is a perfectly acceptable boundary to have, even if it makes your mother have to go to some effort to find someone else to help, or to find an appropriate after school program for your brother.

    There are other options, and it is your mother’s responsibility to find them. It is also a reflection on your mother as a person that she does not have any friends to help out. You do not need to fill that gap. Your primary responsibility is to take care of yourself, now that you are an adult. If, or when, you have children then you will be responsible for them. You are not responsible for parenting your mother’s son.

    Sending you much love, and just remember, you are worthy. You deserve a good life. You can set limits with others to protect your self.

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  100. Pocket Mouse*

    As someone who also reads Dear Prudie, I have to say: this situation, where your mom pressures you to be the solution to her problems with your brother, is unlikely to end anytime soon. There are a slew of letters over there where a parent begs and harangues an adult child to let a difficult adult sibling live with them, give the sibling money or a job, you name it, always at the expense of the letter writer’s personal and/or professional peace. Unless something changes and your brother’s behavior improves—dramatically—you will need to set this exact kind of boundary with her in the future, perhaps on numerous occasions. Kudos for you for standing strong now, and wishing you the best.

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  101. boof*

    Oh op wow, good for you.
    Stay strong #1 own oxygen mask first; it’s OK to take care of yourself/your job as a priority! No amount of “but it’s easier for you than it’s easier for me” means you have to take on something that just isn’t your responsibility.
    #2 You had no say in having a brother nor are you sharing a roof/home resources anymore – if you want to help when you can that’s nice but it’s absolutely ok not to take that on. You’re an independent adult now
    3# wow your brother did something gross again; he’s so young I’m more sad about that than angry, I’d keep harping to your mom that his behavior needs to be addressed.
    4# FWIW sounds like with his behavior problems you might quickly find yourself out of a job if you did take this on anyway; not that that means 1-3 doesn’t apply but yeah, keep firm with your mom. Including hanging up if you are talking in circles. It sucks and it’s not easy but you are not being a bratty teen by doing this – you are being a responsible adult. Consider reading captain awkward or if possible finding someone you can talk to for you about how navigate boundaries and ongoing relationships with people who aren’t really reasonable and know how to push your buttons.

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  102. Expoential Vee*

    OP, as someone with similar family, one approach to take is to call her bluff.

    She can’t cope and you won’t support her = Yes. So foster care/ CPS would be ideal – does she want you to call them now?

    This is controlling and manipulative, and puts your job at risk. How DARE she call your work and lie to your colleague!

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  103. Owl-a-roo*

    As the adult (38f) child of parents in an extremely difficult childcare situation, I deeply empathize with your desire to make your family’s lives easier…but fixing things is not your job. Whether she’s doing it intentionally or not, your mother is emotionally manipulating you to do what she wants. This does not mean that she is a bad person or bad parent. It means that in this particular situation, she believes that you can solve a problem for her and is willing to do whatever it takes to convince you of this belief.

    Objectively, it’s obvious that you cannot fulfill your mother’s wish. You have a job and a life, and you cannot be your brother’s caretaker for the reasons that you have already stated. It is OK to say no. Your mother will not be happy with this. You might feel bad about your mother’s unhappiness, and that is normal and OK. If it helps, try imagining what it would be like if you lived far away from your family – your mother would be forced to find a different solution and wouldn’t think to involve you at all (unless she’s the kind of parent that would guilt-trip you into moving back home).

    It is also OK to decide that your mother and brother’s unhappiness are very important to you! Based on your letters’ contents, I don’t think you want to do this, but you could change your life in a way that would accommodate your mother and brother. It’s already been established that you cannot fulfill your mother’s request at your current job; however, it might be a nice thought exercise to imagine exactly what you would have to do AND exactly how you would feel if you changed your life in a way to suit your mother’s request.

    For what it’s worth…it has taken me twenty years (and a fair amount of therapy) to untangle myself from my parents’ guilt, but it has been well worth the effort.

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  104. Jules the 3rd*

    BTW, OP: the harassment and stuff? If your mom can afford it, your brother could use a therapist *whether or not* there’s been some kind of abuse. Your brother is crying out for attention – a therapist can help him figure out healthy ways to get it.

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  105. Kevin Sours*

    Mother isn’t the only one with problems with boundaries. Brother needs serious counseling. Like yesterday.

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  106. epicdemiologist*

    Adding my kudos to both OP and her colleagues. I’d just like to add that OP getting in trouble and losing her job MIGHT be seen as a positive outcome by her mom. “Oh good, now you have plenty of time to take care of your brother! You can move back in!”

    (Can I get a NOPE!!!)

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  107. Nat20*

    Just want to add to the chorus of comments seconding Alison’s reply. We call them boundaries because they’re about establishing the limits and conditions of what YOU are willing and able to do.

    You’re right that maintaining them is often easier said than done, but do try to be kind to yourself about how hard it is. And remember that you can only control you. Your mom will feel how she feels about your boundaries — you can care, but you can’t control that, and you shouldn’t sacrifice your well-being for the sake of trying to manage her feelings.

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  109. T.N.H*

    I think all this talk of boundaries is important, but for the specific situation only two things matter: The brother is now presumably banned from the workplace and if he shows up again, OP’s manager will call CPS. Setting new expectations or getting guilt tripped are irrelevant. He can’t come to OP’s work ever again even if she did cave.

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  110. Fotze*

    Just to counter some of these things…which are not objectively true…

    “I don’t understand the stresses of motherhood” Maybe not, but she is his mother, not you.

    “Someone could’ve kidnapped my brother and it would’ve been my fault.” This is ridiculous. It wouldn’t be your fault! She’s fine with him riding the bus, until it inconveniences her.

    “There is nobody else in her life who can help her.” This may be objectively true. It’s unfortunate, but it does not make it your responsibility to do something. She is the mother, you are her (adult) child. Being your brother’s parent is NOT your job.

    “It’s so easy for me to not care about my brother because I can give him to her, and that I never hang out enough with him anyway.” Sure, maybe…but as I said, you’re not his mother. And frankly, this is an emotionally manipulative argument, and does not change that you cannot help in this scenario.

    I truly fear for your brother’s future.

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  111. Brain sparkles*

    Just adding my voice to the chorus – a boundary is for you. When dealing with a boundary-crossing person, it can help to always think about boundary-and-consequence.
    – Don’t talk over my on the phone… OR I will hang up on you.
    – Don’t insult me… OR I will walk away
    – Don’t tell Brother to go to my workplace… OR I will call CPS.

    Thats what people mean when they talk about enforcing a boundary. It’s not just continually stating the boundary and expecting the other person to magically respect it. It’s about enforcing the CONSEQUENCE for crossing your boundary. And by clearly stating it in advance, you both know what it is, and you can ignore any comments like ‘BUT I DIDN’T KNOW!!!!’

    And by being really consistent in following through on any consequence, the boundary crosser will hopefully stop crossing your boundaries, purely because it’s easier for THEM.

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  112. DramaQ*

    LW pretty sure if your brother got kidnapped he’d be thrown back if he couldn’t make it even 20 minutes before saying something so gross to your peer that it had to be redacted from the letter.

    No you don’t know how to be a mom because you aren’t one and it is not your place to have to put yourself into your mother’s shoes. You are his sister. It is his mom’s job to parent him and face the consequences of allowing his behavior to get to the point where she has no after school care for him.

    There is no one else to help her because it sounds like your brother has set fire to every bridge within his reach and so has she. It is not up to you to be her savior. She could have nipped this in the bud LONG before it got to this point. She chose not to.

    Please please repeat all this to yourself when you sit there starting to think your mother is right. They FAFO’d. It is not your job to save them from themselves. He couldn’t make it TWENTY MINUTES without saying something awful to someone. 20 minutes! You are so lucky that your peer and your company took that in stride. That is something that could end up having serious career implications for you.

    And the fact neither him or your mom are counting their lucky stars he wasn’t charged and/or curb stomped should highlight for you how abnormal and dysfunctional this situation is. Stop letting them try to take you down with the ship.

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  113. Definitely not a cat...*

    I want to throw out that CPS is not always the safety net people think it is. I had a pretty bad situation involving abuse and it took them 6 months to follow up. All they did was make everything worse. I do not blame the individual workers at all, they are horribly underpaid and overworked, but the system is broken. In this scenario, I understand that getting CPS involved is more for boundary setting, but keep in mind they may not react at all. Or they may show up 6 months later and make a mess for the OP. (Side note: I would never tell someone not to reach out if a child needs help, but there are other resources I’d use in addition to CPS. RAINN or a children’s advocacy center may be better in those scenarios.)

    However, OP, the things you listed as objectively true are objectively NOT true. This is NOT on you, and it’s wildly unfair for your mother to put this on you. I hope seeing all the other comments help provide some perspective. And yes, boundary setting can be very very hard, sometimes impossible. Sometimes cutting people out of your life is literally the only way to make it stop. I’m not advocating for that necessarily, but to your point, some people can hear the “perfect” argument and it still does nothing. You did and are doing the best you can. Internet hugs to you (only if you want them).

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