coworker doesn’t want to report our boss for harassment, I accidentally let a contact think my dad is still alive, and more

by Alison Green on March 26, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My coworker doesn’t want to report our boss for harassment

Recently a coworker shared information with me about some pretty egregious sexual comments our mutual boss made. My personal feeling is that she needs to share this with HR and/or our company leadership team (we are a small startup with less than 50 employees, going to leadership would be fine). She has said she’ll consider it but she just needed to tell someone. Then she asked that I tell no one.

I want to tell our HR anyway because there should be an investigation and/or consequences. What are my obligations in this scenario? If I make an “anonymous” tip, it will be easy to figure out it came from me since (I believe) I am the only person she told. And if it comes out and I don’t tell, am I in trouble for knowing but not reporting (I am not in any sort of legal mandated reporting situation)? Basically, what do I do here?

If you’re a manager, you’re legally obligated to report it; not reporting it would expose your company to legal liability. But if you’re not a manager, that doesn’t apply — and in that case I’d argue that you should respect your coworker’s wishes. While it shouldn’t be this way, the reality is that reporting harassment can have real repercussions for the victim. Hopefully that won’t be the case at your company, but there’s a risk that your coworker’s life at work would get worse, not better, and/or that she’ll be put in (further) uncomfortable situations she doesn’t want to be in, miss out on professional opportunities, or even be pushed out. That’s not a decision you should make on her behalf. I understand the impulse to report your boss, but your coworker is the person who will be most affected if you do, and you should err on the side of respecting her wishes.

2. I accidentally let a contact think my dad is still alive

My dad was born and grew up in another country, let’s say Narnia. After moving here, he continued a very deep interest in and connection with it all his life and made sure it was part of my life growing up.

Flash forward to today: I work in sales and am developing a relationship with a very prominent Narnian company, and in the course of chitchat with my contact it came up that my dad was born in Narnia. He was delighted and now mentions it often when introducing me to other Narnians as a kind of fun fact, and says things like “you’ll have to show X to your dad” or “your dad must be proud you’re working with Narnians” and so on.

The problem: my dad is in fact dead. He passed away about a month before I first met my contact, and I did (and still sometimes do!) habitually refer to him in the present tense, and it simply didn’t occur to me until after the meeting. I realize that sounds sociopathic, but I just … forgot. My contact is so pleased about this Narnian connection and is generally such a lovely man that I don’t know how to clear up this misunderstanding — which has now been going on for about four months — without actually saying, “I forgot that my dad died.” Help!

(For what it’s worth, I think my dad would indeed be very proud that I’m working with Narnians, and would also find this situation extremely funny.)

The next time it comes up and your contact refers to your dad in the present tense, just say, “I should have mentioned — my dad died last year. But you’re absolutely right that he’d be so happy that I’m working with other Narnians!”

There may be a brief moment of awkwardness, which is okay — but it’s likely to just seem like something that got misunderstood in the past, not like you were purposefully hiding anything from him. It’s also possible that he won’t even think about the fact that the previous conversations had been in present tense and will just think there hadn’t been an opportunity for it to come up yet. Mostly he’s likely to be focused on telling you he’s sorry to hear it. And then it will be handled and you won’t have to feel weird about it anymore!

3. My coworker got angry that I gave her time-sensitive info at the start of her shift

Today at work we had a few call-outs. This meant last-second game plan changes. Everyone adjusted just fine, except my coworker Elizabeth.

Elizabeth came into work and started small-talking with people right away. As soon as a supervisor spoke up (after giving her time to finish her conversation) to let her know about workflow changes for the day, she became incredibly frustrated and seemed to be holding back from saying something. I joined in the conversation and let her know I had taken care of some extra work to so she wouldn’t have to adjust from her normal workflow and gave her some follow-up info to make her workday easier. In the middle of us talking to her, she stormed off.

I figured she might be having a hard day so I gave her time to cool off and half an hour later checked in on her. She was still angry and said she couldn’t handle talking about work that early in the day. Her shift just started. This seems unreasonable to me. We work in medical care and if we drop the ball, patients can suffer. We have plenty of time to chat once we get our work done, but much of the work we do is very time-sensitive.

How can I adjust to Elizabeth’s responses in the future? I would like to be compassionate and try to understand where she’s coming from. However, at the moment I plan on not keeping her informed and letting her figure things out on her own, as it’s not my job to manage her emotional responses when I’m just sharing information like I would with anyone else in the workplace. I’d love your feedback on adjustments I could make or if I am being unreasonable with how to handle her.

Elizabeth is being unreasonable; you are not. “Can’t handle talking about work during work time” is a little bananas — I mean, she might feel that way, but that’s something for her to manage on her own, not to make others manage for her. And being visibly frustrated and storming off because you’re trying to update her on time-sensitive work?!

Your instinct that it’s not your job to manage her emotional responses is the right one. But your plan to not keep her informed and let her figure things out on her own might not be; that one depends on whether you have a responsibility to impart info to her and whether patients will be harmed if you don’t. If either of those things are the case and you’re finding yourself hesitant to talk to her because of her volatility, that’s a sign to bring in your manager to help.

4. Can I thank my spouse’s boss for being awesome?

After 20-odd years of retail hell that did their damndest to beat my husband’s self-esteem and sense of worth in the workplace into the dirt, he finally landed in a job that not only pays the bills (and keeps up with inflation), but has him feeling like the extremely experienced and valued employee that he really is. This is mostly thanks to his absolute rockstar of a boss.

She takes care of all of her employees, her unit is the best and most well-liked in the entire state and has won awards from the huge corporate offices, she goes to bat without hesitation for her crew, has open communication, encourages and respects healthy work/home boundaries, and is genuinely a funny and cool person! My husband has witnessed her go above and beyond for her team consistently, both in the every day and when emergencies strike.

Everyone he meets is happy with my husband’s work, and his boss in particular is very pleased, but is there an appropriate way I could pass on thanks for, well, putting an end to literal decades of toxic workplaces that my husband has had to work to make ends meet? It’d probably be weird to pass on a card that says, “Thanks for making a great workplace that I haven’t directly joined but have benefitted from!”

Nope, don’t do it. This is your husband’s relationship to manage, not yours, and it would be overstepping for you to do that (and potentially even a little undermining to your husband, depending on exactly what you shared). Enjoy and appreciate the situation from a remove.

5. Employers that ask for too much info in doctor’s notes

I’m a nurse practitioner working in primary care. I see patients for their annual physicals, maintenance of chronic conditions, and for same-day sick visits.

My question is about doctor’s notes for patients who have called out sick from work. My usual template is as follows (can be edited as needed, obviously): “Please be advised that the above named patient was seen in our office today (date) for an acute condition. They may return to work without restrictions on (date). Please excuse their absence (date range).”

I like it because it says “yes, this person had a medical thing, they’re allowed to work again on this date, their absence was legitimate” but doesn’t get into any unnecessary detail.

But I have been running into situations more often lately where an employer requires very specific things in their sick note — “diagnosis and prognosis” as one example, so they ask me to write that they had the flu and that a complete recovery is expected. I don’t have much of a problem with this in the case of common viral illnesses, but what about anxiety? Or chronic knee pain that’s flared up? I feel this violates the privacy that patients should expect when they visit their doctor. Not to mention when some employers require FMLA paperwork to be completed for any absence three days or longer … this is a huge waste of time for most situations for both the employee and their doctor.

Is there any way to push back on these kind of requirements? Should employees push back? Or should we all just do what HR has decided it likes best?

You’re absolutely right. Doctor’s notes aren’t supposed to contain specific diagnoses, details of medical treatment, or any other private medical info that isn’t directly related to the employee’s ability to perform their job. Legally, notes should be kept to the minimum necessary to fulfill their purpose: a confirmation that the person was seen on a particular date, the need for time off, and any other work-related restrictions. Anything more detailed than that puts the employer at risk of violating the Americans with Disabilities Act, which prohibits them from requesting information beyond what’s “job-related and consistent with business necessity.”

When an employer asks for more info than they’re entitled to, you don’t need to comply. You can provide the info you and the employee are comfortable with and ignore inappropriately invasive questions (or employ vague terms like “temporary condition” or “illness”).

Related:
what’s your boss allowed to ask when you call in sick?

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{ 369 comments }

{ 369 comments… read them below }

  1. Katherine*

    LW2: My dad passed away a year and a half ago and I still accidentally speak of him in the present tense. The longer you have known someone, the longer it takes your brain to change linguisitc habits. I think it’s normal to accidentally say ‘my dad is [from narnia]’ etc instead of ‘my dad was [from narnia]’ for some time. Alison gives good advice on how to word your correction.

    1. Massive Dynamic*

      My dad’s been gone ten years now and I still do this sometimes. I don’t think the LW has anything to worry about here; people understand this. Our parents are actively a part of us even after they pass on.

      1. Kristin*

        I still do it, too – after 11 years. I’m glad I’m not the only one, and OP sure isn’t alone in this.
        Alive in our hearts, right?

        1. Eff Walsingham*

          Co-signing. My Mum died in 2016, and I still hear myself saying “she always says” instead of “she always used to say” and so on. Especially in reference to her favourite sayings / music / jokes… things that were really woven into our shared experiences.

        2. Spider Plant Mom*

          Jumping on this bandwagon! Mine has been gone 25 years and I definitely catch myself referring to him in present tense, just because he’s gone doesn’t mean he stopped being a comp sci grad or having been born in the small town up north.

    2. KayDeeAye*

      Sorry about your dad, Katherine. My dad died in 1990, and it took me at least two years before I quit referring to him in the present tense. My mother died last May, and it will probably take me at least that long to quit referring to her in the present tense. (I mean, I sometimes still think things like, “Oh, I need to call Mom”!)
      Anyway, OP, you say this man is a good person, so he really will understand. I like Alison’s wording, but if you wanted to, you could add something like “I’m sorry – I can’t get out of the habit of referring to him in the present tense.) Honestly, he’ll get it!

    3. Lime green Pacer*

      This can crop up in other contexts too. My daughter is transgender and we started using her current name five years ago. Every once in a while, I catch myself using (or almost using) her deadname despite using her current name on a repeated, daily basis. Totally unintentional, but still a faux pas.

      1. Mid*

        Many of my friends are trans (and myself, though I haven’t changed my name) and even they’ll sometimes use their own deadname when referring to things that happened in the past. It happens! (Doesn’t mean everyone gets a free pass to misname people all the time, but everyone slips up sometimes, and trust me, trans folks know when it’s malicious instead of accidental.)

        I also refer to my grandmother, who passed 16 years ago, in present tense sometimes. It’s no big deal.

    4. Reluctant Mezzo*

      My husband passed almost three years ago, and I still do this, “my husband loves pillars of flame in his chemistry class’, oh wait…

  2. RCB*

    #5, to reiterate what Alison said, and to apply it to other situations, you are rarely required to supply all of the information that an employer asks for. In this case they were asking for invasive medical information that ethically (and likely legally) you shouldn’t share, so they aren’t entitled to it.

    In my HR role we did employment verifications all the time and of course they always ask for the salary of the former employee and I refused to answer, because that’s no one else’s business and is used to hold back women and other minorities in the workplace. Never once did I get pushback, they just accepted what I gave them, because all they needed was confirmation of the name, dates, and title, everything else is just bonus.

    The exception to this is Federal Government background checks, they often can legally require information that you couldn’t give out to anyone else, it’s pretty creepy.

    1. Alma*

      I’m not in the US, but here there are situations where that information is required.

      For instance, my employer has guaranteed 2 year long paid medical leaves. You must however have specific medical forms that specify a diagnosis and treatment. This is seperate from the government forms if you get hurt at work, which are similiar in scope. Also, for the union supplied long-term disability insurance it requires quite detailed information. Leaving the country while on these leaves can also require a medical note explaining why travelling is possible, but working is not.

      In all thise cases none of that information is disclosed to the persons “boss”. It’s handled by specific personel in HR and help comes from the union office.

      1. fhqwhgads*

        Sure but that’s a pretty giant difference than the situation in the letter, which is about 3-day illnesses, even if you did want to compare/contrast US vs other countries.

        1. Momma Bear*

          I think it’s bonkers that any company is requiring FMLA paperwork for an absence over 3 days. Three weeks? Sure. Three *days*? That’s just a bad cold and what sick leave should be for.

          1. Government Condition*

            Many government jobs require this after 3 days. Different agencies have different rules for how long the threshold is.

        2. Eeeeka*

          It’s not FMLA paperwork, just They-were-out-of-the-office-and-the-boss-doesn’t-accept-it-without-a-doctor’s-note paperwork.

    2. I GAF about the Oxford Comma*

      But also: for background checks and security clearances (in the US), the applicant signs waivers permitting the government access to otherwise sensitive/non-public data (i.e., protected health information).

  3. Not A Manager*

    LW2 – “It’s so hard for me to accept that my father has passed away; he feels near to me all the time. I’m sorry that I implied that he’s still with us.”

    1. AnotherSarah*

      That’s lovely wording! Or even just the second part of the first sentence, and then the second, which seems to put less emotional stuff on the boss.

    2. Guinea pigs are the best*

      LW 1, you can report any of your own personally observed stories without affecting your coworker or even referring to their experiences. Eg if Boss makes an inappropriate comment in your hearing, you can (and according to my company’s sexual harassment policy, should) report that, even if it’s not directed to you. If boss is only being inappropriate in private there’s nothing you can do but if you witness it, it’s your experience to report (or let go of).

    3. JayNay*

      I don’t think LW2 needs to apologize at all! It would be obvious why it’s hard to mention that your parent has passed. They could even say that, like „there’s never a good time to mention this but my dad has actually passed recently.“
      I like the second part of the first sentence though.

      1. Not on board*

        Yeah, agree that they should keep the apology out of it. I like Alison’s script but they could add that they often forget that he’s passed away, in case the contact thinks they deliberately mislead them.

      2. Smithy*

        I agree with this. My father passed over five years ago, and while I believe that folks being sympathetic to learning that is polite and appropriate – at work it ends up being a bit odd. These are cases where it’s relevant my main point, but the condolence pause is inevitable and understandable why someone might be looking to avoid. Particularly at work and particularly when mourning is newer.

        I do think that correcting it is a kindness, but I don’t think so much apologizing is required.

      3. Insert Clever Name Here*

        Yeah, I think the way to handle it is when contact says “you’ll have to tell your dad you met a Cair Paravel native” or whatever is to say “aw, Dad would have loved to hear that.” If they for some reason ask directly about him, “Dad passed late last year” would be sufficient.

        I don’t think apologizing is necessary either — in all likelihood, the contact probably won’t remember what tense you used about your dad in your first conversation — but I’m not a salesperson so it’s possible I’m missing a norm about relationships in that context.

        1. Anon for this*

          I think in this case, saying “I’m sorry” is less an apology and more one of those social niceties to smooth over any awkardness. It’s not necessary at all but may help the OP and the contact feel less weird about it.

        2. CalypsoSummer*

          “aw, Dad would have loved to hear that. He always said that Cair Paravel natives were the best!”

    4. JelloStapler*

      This. It’s normal to slip up in this way. It took me a while to get used to using past tense when my Dad passed too.

    5. Earlk*

      Nice wording but super weird thing to say. “oh he’s no longer with us” is plenty, there’s no apology needed, people tend to assume parents you mention are alive and it’d be weirder to repeatedly say “My dead dad loved Narnia” than just speaking about him normally.

      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        Honestly, in that situation I might just say something like, “Yeah, he would have been really proud,” which gives the minimal information that past tense is correct, without going into specifics of timing.

    6. Constance Lloyd*

      In LW’s shoes, I would honestly just use the phrase they wrote in this letter- Out of habit, they still sometimes refer to their father in the present tense. That’s a tough transition to make!

      1. Mamma Mia!*

        Yes, my thoughts exactly! Especially because he passed only a month before she met this contact — I think it totally makes sense to say he hadn’t passed long before they met and that she’s still adjusting.

      2. So Tired Of God's Specialest Princesses*

        Exactly! “There’s never really a good time or way to say this, but my father passed last year. I’m still learning to speak of him in the past tense.”

    7. RIP Pillowfort*

      There’s no need to say that you’re sorry you implied anything. This was a new contact and for most people it’s perfectly normal they wouldn’t share something so heavy right away!

      I’d just bring it up. “I wanted to tell you that I met you very shortly after my dad died actually. It’s awkward having to bring it up. Also I still slip up because it’s very recent loss. I hope you understand why I didn’t bring it up sooner in our conversations.”

      1. Another freelancer*

        This is great wording. Maybe the OP can then pivot to talking about the city or region where the company is located? Like “Dad always loved visiting (city where company is based)” or “Dad went to school in (region where company is located) and had many happy memories there.” Just so it’s circling back to the OPs contact.

      2. Daisy-dog*

        And really, we don’t know if LW actually slipped up by using present tense (which is understandable regardless, but they seem to just think it happened) or if the contact just assumed LW’s father was still alive. Many people do tend to assume that and it’s possible contact may believe that happened, not remember exact wording of conversations.

    8. Reba*

      It’s interesting to read the different reactions to this situation. To me this script is very overly emotional for the situation, where it’s clients/work colleagues. OP may want to insert a quick “sorry” to smooth over the awkwardness but definitely does not owe an apology for “implying” anything!

    9. Fluffy Fish*

      This is lovely but too much for a professional relationship.

      Simple and direct is more appropriate.

    10. Jamjari*

      This. LW2, it’s not weird to still refer to a dear loved one in the present tense, especially so soon after they passed. I still have vivid dreams where my mom is still very much alive two years later.

    11. PhyllisB*

      Yes, my son has been gone a few months now and I still occasionally refer to him as if he’s still with us. Luckily, people are understanding when you explain it like that.

    13. Nancy*

      That is way too much for a professional relationship. There is no need to apologize for using the present tense. I sometimes do with people I’ve lost because I like it.

      Just say something like “my father passed away in 2024, but he would have loved to see this.”

  4. RCB*

    #1, just the fact that you know is already helping, so take that as your solace. If the issue ever does come up in the future and they try to make it seem like she’s just bringing it up now for some reason, you’d be able to verify that this was actually an ongoing issue and not something she’s just creating now to get out of some issue. That would be a huge help that only you can provide to her, so even if you can’t talk to HR now, you do have the ability to help in the future.

    1. Artemesia*

      Might make sense to document it in some way in case it is needed for future reference. Email to self? or?

      2. Cease and D6*

        But only email to self if you’re either using a personal email or know that your supervisors/IT people aren’t reading your work email! If you’re not sure, best not take the risk.

        1. Bluenyx*

          This- I also think it’s fine to note it down in a way that doesn’t have a timestamp if you’re not comfortable with email. Just because it’s not “proof” doesn’t make having notes useless! It’s important that if a pattern emerges you’re able to remember all the details to contribute your account of this at that time. (Plus this isn’t a court case, you don’t need perfect proof of everything for HR to act.)

        2. Observer*

          either using a personal email or know that your supervisors/IT people aren’t reading your work email! If you’re not sure, best not take the risk

          I mean it’s not a bad idea to use a personal email. But in general, I don’t see any risk here. In fact if anyone comes to the LW to complain that they emailed themselves about this, they have just created a paper trail that they *knew* about the complaint and targeted the LW over it rather than do something about the problem.

          1. Sloanicota*

            I was thinking about this on a different thread. I would like to have detailed notes and a time stamp. I would probably proceed as if there might be a lawsuit and files/notes can be requested. So I wouldn’t put it in my diary if I didn’t want the court to want to read my whole diary. I might put it in a work-related notebook with a date or an email. I’ve also seen people log repeated incidents in a spreadsheet, with a date column, notes, other witnesses etc.

        3. AnonAndOnAndOn*

          I have a separate, dedicated personal email for documenting work stuff. This might be overkill for the OP – I’m in a kind of unfortunate situation where there’s a lot to document right now – but it keeps everything completely separate, time-stamped, unconnected to work, and not mingled with anything personal.

          1. Sloanicota*

            Wow jinx. You can tell who has been involved in litigation before haha. I hope it doesn’t come to that for OP and their colleague but it’s always good to proceed as if you’ll be giving evidence in court TBH.

    2. Boof*

      Yes – the only reason to go to HR/outside over the wishes of the victim/reporter is if you think others are in active danger (I mean more as a matter of personal policy, not always legality). Crappy comments are crappy and worth keeping an internal log of but unless LW1 is mandated to report or in some kind of position of authority where it’s their responsibility to more proactively protect the employee, they probably shouldn’t go outside of the wishes of the person sharing things.
      I’d say something different if someone was physically assaulted or overtly threatened with material harm though.

      1. Anonymoose*

        Even with physical assaults there is more push to have the victim decide what they want to disclose, and to whom. “While the Duty to Report was designed to promote good order and discipline among CAF members by requiring them to report misconduct to the proper authorities, it has created unintended negative consequences for survivors by taking away their agency and control in the reporting process.”

        2. Boof*

          I’m sorry but if I knew a coworker was actively dangerous I would report them for my own safety – at a certain point it’s also about your whole environment. I’d do my best to protect the victim and I’m not talking about going to the police, more about the work administration because at a certain point ignorance is dangerous

      2. MigraineMonth*

        So, this is a tricky one because the way the system *should* work and the way the system *actually* works are so different. If you are a person for whom systems have always worked the way they should (e.g. store management responds to your complaints, police believe you when you make reports), the right thing to do seems very straightforward: just follow the system, trust in the system, and everything will work out the way it’s supposed to. The victim will be protected and empowered, the bad guy will be punished and prevented from hurting others, justice will be served.

        Unfortunately, the system does *not* work much of the time when it comes to reporting sexual harassment (or assault). Reporting it is a large risk for the victim, and *even if* everything goes right it often means retraumatizing the victim and only a slap on the wrist for the abuser. (Even if the boss is fired for sexual harassment, it’s likely they’ll just find a job elsewhere with a clean slate.) Whenever possible you should not take that decision away from the victim or, worse, imply that if they don’t report they are somehow responsible for their abuser’s future victims.

        1. Boof*

          So, for example, weinstein; the system failed, but also I think if I knew about something that bad I would really think about reporting it, even if I get the victims were (udnerstandably) afraid; the question is “Report to who” well that’s the rub I don’t know, it depends a lot on the situation (the police? T he press? The upper management? IDK depends on a lot of details on the exact situation) there’s no good answers but at a certain point I’d potentially try to protect myself and others if I knew someone was actively dangerous and I thought i had a path to stop them.
          I’m well aware systems dont always work but also there are many systems and ways to try to stop someone who is dangerous and there’s a balance there

          1. MigraineMonth*

            Unfortunately, the most effective way to protect others from serial harassers is often just the whisper network. The police aren’t going to act on “made sexual comments”. The press aren’t going to publish unless it’s a celebrity/prominent politician. HR might handle it well or might–as we have seen many times–make your life a living hell and fail to protect you from retaliation. Upper management honestly doesn’t have the training or sensitivity to handle it well and is even more likely to close ranks around the abuser than HR. Even in the ideal situation where you report to HR, they investigate and find evidence of a pattern of sexual harassment and fire the creep, that creep doesn’t have some sort of “permanent record” or scarlet letter that follows them to the next job, so they start over again with a blank slate.

            Passing on the warning to “Watch out for Bob” or “Don’t ever be in a room alone with Sheryl” feels like so little, but it’s one of the few ways to *warn others* about the danger that 1) doesn’t require a pattern or witnesses; 2) doesn’t retraumatize the harassed person; 3) can go across companies/states/countries and hopefully reach new people before their harassed. It’s a truly shitty system for working around a missing stair, but in far too many cases it’s the best we’ve got.

    3. ILoveLlamas*

      I agree with the comments in this thread — she needs someone to know and she needs that person to know on a specific date close to the incident. You are her witness. Please support her by being available and open to listening. You can help her by documenting (where you feel safe keeping this information) the date, time and other specific details of the conversation. If this ever bubbles up, you will be a huge resource for her. That is what it sounds like she needs right now. I work in a misogynistic industry with horrible HR, so when I have incidents of this nature, I tell my other female coworkers specifically to have time-dated witnesses. They do the same. Blessed be the fruit.

  5. Not your typical admin*

    Number 1 – as hard as this is, unless you’re her supervisor, there is nothing you can do. Be aware of who your boss is, and protect yourself. You can’t report information you have no direct knowledge of. If you do, things could get worse for your coworker, of even you. What will happen if you do report and your coworker and boss deny everything? All you can do is keep yourself safe, and be a support for your coworker when and if she is ready to report. I’m so sorry you’re facing this.

    1. bamcheeks*

      You can’t report information you have no direct knowledge of.

      You actually can! Whether or not it’s a good idea and helpful to your co-worker is another matter, but there is no convention or rule stopping you reporting egregious comments or harassment that you were told about secondhand.

    2. Observer*

      You can’t report information you have no direct knowledge of.

      This is not correct. The LW most definitely can report what they were told. And the company’s HR can investigate.

      I do agree that the LW needs the victim’s agreement unless the LW is a supervisor, which it doesn’t sound like it applies, or there is a real risk to others. But that’s more because otherwise the primary risk of reporting falls on the victim and they get to decide how they want to navigate this.

  6. noachooforyou*

    For the last letter writer, I am going against what Alison said. Please whatever information the patients job is requesting, give it. There is a HUGE shift recently and employers are firing people for not being sick “enough” or for trying to negotiate promotions, job offers are being rescinded for wage negotiations, people are suspended for calling out for things like flu or c-Diff (YES C-DIFF, and the person worked in a restaurant!!) Employers are doing things to make this perfectly legal, and setting horrifyingly restrictive and almost impossible to navigate call off procedures and then setting extremely high attendance points for not being able to jump through every hoop, then FIRING people for “violating the attendance policy”.

    I’m in Ohio and got fired for attendance points because I had the flu then got secondary bronchitis and ended up in the emergency room getting all kinds of testing and treatments. I had a doctors note keeping me out of work for 10 more days but because there was no details and no information from the doctor about how sick I really was they did not believe I had been too sick to find my own coverage on the 3 days I called out. I first was suspended for a week then once I gave them the doctors note, they ghosted me for 8 days then fired me the day I was supposed to be put back on the schedule for the following week. If I had thought to file FLMA for a 3 day absence I may have been legally protected. But I did not think the emergency room would fill out the paperwork for a yearly virus.

    I am fighting to get unemployment. Which is also only $133 a week because Ohio thinks people can live off of that. What makes this even worse is 1) I got sick with the flu because people came to work sick all the time because we did not have enough people to cover shifts and people were scared to get fired and 2) The testing at the emergency room found some serious health conditions and possible cancer and since I got fired from my low wage job where I lived paycheck to paycheck and unemployment is saying I don’t qualify I’m about to be homeless with my child while facing possible paralysis due to severe spinal issues and possible thyroid cancer.

    1. Ruh roh*

      I’m so sorry about your situation, but I’m pretty sure this would violate HIPAA for the doctor’s office to share details are you suggest, unless the employee has specifically allowed them to share medical details with the employer on their intake disclosure form. Good luck <3

      1. WillowSunstar*

        Yes and what happens if the person has cancer? Or AIDS? I guess this is me being a Gen-Xer but I still remember the fear about AIDS in the 1980’s. It took Princess Diana to reduce the stigma around that. Some employers fire people if they find out the person has an expensive medical condition like cancer, or put them on the next mass layoff list. (They’re not supposed to, but they do.)

    2. Cacofonix*

      What you’re going through is awful, absolutely. But understand that no matter what details your doctor might have provided, none would have been enough to make your employer reasonable. Your employer was horrible, full stop. As are other employers doing this. Doctors can’t fix it with a privacy violating note. I hope you land a better job with employers who treat you with integrity.

    3. Emily Byrd Starr*

      Wow, that is just horrible! You have my sympathies. I hope you get the help you need. You could always make a GoFundMe page. If you link to it here, I’ll contribute (it will be a small contribution because I’m not making much right now).

      1. nnn*

        Wanted to say before the OP goes through the trouble of creating a Gofundme that AAM doesn’t allow them here (for good reasons, I think).

    5. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Medical providers are not going to violate HIPAA just because employers are awful, and they should not.
      Instead, we should all be standing up against this hellscape and NOT letting employers act like this.
      What you are going through sucks, but let’s be clear: a HIPAA violation would not have change the fact that your former employer is awful.
      Your care provider followed the law and is not to blame for what happened to you.

      1. Tired*

        It only violates HIPAA if it’s unauthorized. You can tell your provider to put it on a billboard in Times Square if you want.

        1. fhqwhgads*

          Then it turns into a sketchy there where “does the fact that the patient handed me the form that asks for these things constitute authorization”? I mean, yeah you can add the extra step of “I wouldn’t normally give your employer detail X or Y, but they asked for it, do you want me to?” but it’s reasonable for the medical pro to start from the standpoint of “they asked but have no right so unless the patient explicitly tells me they want it shared”…why the hell would they share it.

          1. Boof*

            It can be pretty straightforward; especially now with more open medical records (in the USA at least) the info actually belongs to the patient. So, forms get to and from the health team through the patient; patient always okays what is sent to work. We can’t stop work from being unreasonable but differ to the patient what helps them the most with that.

    6. I Have RBF*

      No.

      I don’t GAF that they are demanding things that they have no right to.

      You employer was wrong, and probably would have fired you even if the doctor sent them your entire medical file.

      This is not a problem with the doctor’s office; it is a problem with an abusive employer possibly crossing over the boundaries of employment law.

      I’m sorry for you that they suck.

    7. fhqwhgads*

      Horrible employers are horrible, and HIPAA exists for a reason. The NP should absolutely refuse to disclose medical details to the employer who have no valid need for them. The employer should absolutely take “no, that’s a HIPAA violation I will not be including those things” as an answer. If they don’t, it’s even more evidence of their horribleness, not an indication medical professionals should violate laws that apply to them and skirt ethics that would get the medical professionals themselves fired.

    8. Niles "the Coyote" Crane*

      This is such a horrifying story, I’m sorry. Is that in America? It feels like it should be illegal but I’m constantly shocked by things that are legal in America.

      (Not that we don’t have plenty of issues in other countries! Workers are treated terribly in different ways everywhere.)

    9. Phony Genius*

      If LW1 follows your advice, they could face a huge fine, not covered by their employer.

      2. Mid*

        Not if the patient signs a release allowing the information to be shared. If they don’t have that release, that can cause issues, but you can release any of your own medical information to anyone you desire.

        That said, I don’t like that employers are allowed to push for this and I think it’s going to come up against ADA violations among other things, and it shouldn’t be the practice. But, people also need to be employed and so they don’t always have the ability to push back.

    10. Boof*

      That is awful. I’m going to agree with others I’m not sure a more elaborate doctors note would have made a difference; I’d hope more could have been provided on your request, but it sounds like your employer might not have bothered? It is terrible I’m sorry they treated you like that.

  7. Innie*

    I’ve been in a similar situation as LW#1. I agree with Alison on not speaking up if your coworker asked you to. The traumatic thing about abuse is loss of control, and by reporting when she asked you not to you’d be taking control away too. Respect her decision. It’s hard to not help but it is her choice.
    In my case the harasser was a colleague, not a boss. I coached her on how to stand up for herself (yes I’m a woman too) because she kept saying she couldn’t do that, but I knew she could. She tried it just like she practiced and it worked. Not only did the harassment stop but she was rightly proud of herself for handling it in her own and grew in confidence. Much harder when it’s your boss, I know!

    1. Aggretsuko*

      Imagine how LW1 would feel if the coworker gets fired because of this, and it’s because LW chose to disclose and it really backfired on the coworker. Coworker would be taking a HUGE RISK to her life/career to speak up, and it’s up to her if she wants to risk her job over this. Not LW1.

  8. Jinni*

    LW#1 – maybe write down everything that she said and email yourself. Outcry witnesses are invaluable, but one with something contemporaneous may be gold for someone somewhere down the line.

    1. Observer*

      I think that this is an excellent idea. Maybe send yourself an email to an outside address. Or just make a record somewhere that is not your office, but that has a time stamp.

      1. Magical Vegan*

        Yessss — IANAL but my spouse is going through something involving contemporaneous notes, and I could not agree with this point more.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      Yeah, someone once told me about harassment as a witness when she wasn’t planning to do anything then, but wanted to have the backup just in case. I wish I had taken some dated notes or something, but it was a long time ago and none of us thought of it.

    4. Sloanicota*

      Yes, although I would say do this on your personal computer/personal email or just write it down on paper if you’re concerned that your work email may not be secure from your boss or HR.

    5. anon for this*

      Was about to comment this. If you’re not required to report, then respect your coworker’s wishes – but definitely document.

  9. CanRelate*

    For #4, I think theres a totally appropriate way to pass on this sort of thanks. If his company ever does corporate events where they do +1’s, thats the time to shake the bosses hand, say its a pleasure to meet them, and say “this has been a great job for husband and he seems to enjoy working with you. Thanks for being cool”

    Its simple, sincere and generally appropriate in those situations where the intention is to have people network a little, in my opinion. Thats only if they do this sort of event, but I don’t think its out of line, personally.

    1. Seashell*

      I agree. I was thinking something like that at a company party or if LW happens to meet her.

    2. Artemesia*

      No still too motherly and inappropriate and undermining. Something like ‘So happy to meet you I have heard such great things about you and Workplace.’ You don’t want to be ‘reporting on’ your husband or seem to be condescending about him and his work.

        1. CityMouse*

          I think “Thanks for being cool” is the line that’s just a little bit over the line. It does come across as something you might say to a kid.

        2. MK*

          Not really. I think there is a difference between a compliment (your workplace sounds awesome, my husband loves it) and gratitude (thank you for making a great workplace for my husband).

    3. SarcasmBeforeAnger*

      Came here to say something similar! At my husband’s company Christmas party (his first year with the company) his bosses, including the president of the company, told me repeatedly how happy they are to have him as part of the team. I responded that it is such a great fit and I am happy to see him so happy in his work. It was a warm and genuine positive interaction.

    4. Salty Caramel*

      That’s exactly what I was thinking. Handshake and, “Pleased to meet you, I’ve heard great things.”

      The only other time I think it would be appropriate for a spouse to be in touch with a boss is if the employee is too sick to call out on their out. Like unconscious.

      1. Ms. Whatsit*

        This is probably the best variation here. You could add in “He really enjoys working at Company,” but it’s extra.

        I also think LW is quite likely to have the sort of interaction SarcasmbeforeAnger describes above, which is also a good model. “Husband does great work with us” “He really enjoys working with you” and other variations.

    5. LaminarFlow*

      I have been on the receiving end of this feedback two times in my career. TBH, it was wonderful feedback to get, and totally unexpected.

      Both of my experiences happened at company social events where each employee could bring a +1, and the interactions were pretty fast and casual. They each said something along the lines of “I have heard so much about you, and wife/girlfriend/husband/boyfriend/partner loves being on your team!” I was genuinely surprised and touched by the sentiments.

      After realizing the impact that those quick and lovely interactions had on me, I committed to giving compliments and positive feedback whenever possible – at work, socially, at a restaurant or hotel, etc.

      There’s a lot of negativity in the universe. Why not spread a little non-toxic positivity? However, LW definitely should not email the husband’s boss to give this feedback. Let it happen organically, and without an audience.

      1. Annie*

        Yes to all of this, Laminar Flow. That’s the appropriate place to do things and a simple comment like you mention is perfect.

    7. Delta Delta*

      This is sort of what I was thinking, as well. If OP ever meets the boss, it seems like she could say something like, “so glad to meet you, Fergus is really happy in his new job!” and leave it at that.

    8. Laura*

      I came here to suggest something similar.

      My wording in person would be something like, “I’m so glad to finally meet you! It has been so important for [husband] to work with you – I know he feels really valued and that means so much.”

      I just think that good managers don’t always get a lot of positive feedback, and as mentioned above this could have such a big impact for her.

      The other suggestion I have is to encourage your husband to give her that feedback directly, if he hasn’t already! “I just want you to know what a good boss you are. Working here has really helped me recognize my own worth, and that’s in large part due to your supportive management style.”

      People just don’t always think to say these things out loud, so if he’s comfortable voicing it somehow, that could be really helpful for her to hear!

  10. Observer*

    #3 – Angry coworker.

    Your coworker is being rather odd. What on earth does she mean that she can’t handle talking about work at the beginning of the work day?

    Given that she was already showing such a high level of frustration with *her manager* who was giving her information that was *absolutely and immediately necessary* for her to function, it sounds like she’s a real potential problem.

    You are right that it’s not your job to manage her emotions. But you do need to pass information that she needs (and you have) on to her. If that causes problems, I agree that you should loop in your manager and ask for direction in how to handle these things going forward.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Yeah Elizabeth is totally in the wrong and OP wouldn’t be off base to say, “when you clock in, that’s the time work starts and you need to be in a mental state to immediately jump in. If you need some time to socialize/get situated, that’s something you should handle privately. Maybe you need to show up and get mentally situated on your own time.” I know past offices of mine have said “start time” is when you turn on your computer and start working, not when you are walking to your cube chatting / putting your coat away / getting coffee in the break room.

      1. Sloanicota*

        But also – it sounds like OP had bad news to deliver (we’re going to be short-staffed this shift so you’ll need to do more) and Elizabeth probably didn’t want to hear that, so it may not really be about the timing of the announcement even if that’s what she’s saying.

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          I’m sure she didn’t want to hear bad news OR hear anything first thing in the morning that disrupted her small talk! I’m totally fascinated by these people who just brazenly insist that they don’t have to work at work. There seem to be more and more, at least on this site.

        2. Observer*

          t sounds like OP had bad news to deliver (we’re going to be short-staffed this shift so you’ll need to do more) and Elizabeth probably didn’t want to hear that

          Except that it was not the OP who had bad news to share, it was the supervisor. And the OP actually had *good* news, relative to the situation!

          And “I don’t want to hear bad news” is even *worse* than “I don’t want to hear stuff first thing in the morning.” Which is to say that if you are right, then Elizabeth is being beyond unreasonable.

    2. Annie*

      Yes, the coworker is being incredibly odd and overly sensitive for no good reason.

      I think LW can just avoid the situation and email the coworker and therefore not have to hear the coworker whining about not being able to handle work at the beginning of the workday (bizarre!)

    3. Slow Gin Lizz*

      My first thought when reading the letter was, “Wow, Elizabeth sure is being ridiculous, not wanting to talk about work when she’s AT WORK,” and then I saw that it’s health care and I was like, “They work in HEALTH CARE and she was mad because some kind of emergency had come up and they have to deal with it?” Elizabeth doesn’t sound like she’s cut out to work in health care if she can’t handle change. Maybe she could train to be some kind of technician where all she does all day every day is mammograms or ultrasounds or take people’s vital signs or whatever, but if she gets this upset about schedule changes, it doesn’t sound like this particular job is the right one for her.

      (NGL, I’m kind of disappointed at how she’s giving the rest of us Elizabeths a bad name….)

  11. Cmdrshprd*

    “You can provide the info you and the employee are comfortable with.”

    I would add that similar to LW1, you need to take the patients wishes much more into account over your own desire to do good and push back on employers.

    You might want to push back on the unreasonable requests, but the employees may not care or decide they would rather provide the requested information rather than risk their job. Things can be illegal, but also hard to prove it take a while to resolve. That is on the employee to decide for themselves not for you to decide.

    So if am employee asks you to put in details requested you should do it. (Assuming it’s accurate.) You can say I normally only put vague ABC info, but if the employee asks you to put in accurate detailed XYZ info you should do it. The goal is protecting a patients privacy but if they don’t want it you can’t force them to.

    1. TheBunny*

      I agree with this.

      Is it illegal to ask this info? Yes. But employers do illegal things all the time. I’m not excusing it, but not everyone is in the position of rocking the boat and risking their job.

      Yes you can sue… but that takes a while.

      Truth be told, I’d be annoyed at an NP who continued to refuse to put reasons on paperwork.

      1. MK*

        No. Confidentiality laws prohibit doctors providing their patients medical information to third parties directly. There is nothing illegal about a patient asking their doctor to provide a document with details about their medical condition, or an employer asking an employee to provide specific medical information about themselves to justify an absence (usually). It’s invasive and unnecessary, but generally not illegal.

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          Not exactly. We are not allowed to provide identifiable health information to anyone except other people involved in the patient’s care and the insurance company unless we have the patient’s written permission. So yes, it would be illegal for me to provide a diagnosis to an employer without a release and when I worked in primary care I did exactly what the LW describes. If the patient wanted me to be more specific, I had them sign a release.

          FMLA paperwork includes the release as part of the form. Same for disability.

          2. doreen*

            I think you are misunderstanding MK. They seem to be talking about the most common way medical notes are provided in my experience – I ask my provider for a note, I tell the provider what I need to have in the note and the note is handed to me, not sent to my employer. As far as I know , you don’t need written permission to provide my medical information to me even if you know I am going to give it to my employer, my school ,etc – and if you do, every medical provider I have ever asked for a note has violated it. And maybe my employer can’t legally ask for my diagnosis/prognosis – but it’s not illegal for the provider to include it if I ask for it and it’s really not the provider’s place to decide my employer shouldn’t ask for it.

            1. Boof*

              Yeah I’m not calling up the patient’s employer to tell them anything directly; or handing anything over to the third party that hasn’t been cleared through the patient. But any medical info the patient has a right to and they can tell me if they want it sent somewhere.
              I think only once have I ever spoken directly to a third party and again, after talking to the patient and our legal team that I had permission – they had a lawyer doing something for them and needed a letter about their diagnosis limitations prognosis etc and ultimately okayed me talking to the lawyer about what sort of letter/details would be helpful and then that got sent to the patient to pass along to their lawyer.

        2. Observer*

          It’s invasive and unnecessary, but generally not illegal.

          In the context of FMLA, the fact that it is invasive an unnecessary does make it illegal, though. Because the company is not legally allowed to make taking leave more difficult than necessary.

    2. Tired*

      I agree with you wholeheartedly. The number of complaints I see about employers not accepting sick notes, FMLA, or RA requests because doctors won’t fill out the paperwork as needed is frustrating.
      People need their jobs and need this paperwork. Your personal crusade doesn’t hurt the company at all, it hurts your patients.

      1. Pocket Mouse*

        Not filling out the paperwork is different from declining to offer unnecessary and protected health information in that paperwork. “As needed” is by the law, not by the employer’s request.

      2. Boof*

        The number one thing patients can do is fill out as much of the paperwork as possible themselves (ideally after identifying the provider who will support it). It’s so frustrating to get a blank form where me/my team is expected to fill in things like home address and multiple pages of “how long can the person sit for; how long can they stand for” etc etc when sometimes I’d be willing to look it over and sign off if it matches what I know but I think you can imagine if you have hundreds of patients and 3 people the faster/easier folks can make the paperwork/requests the more we can actually do.

      3. Observer*

        The number of complaints I see about employers not accepting sick notes, FMLA, or RA requests because doctors won’t fill out the paperwork as needed is frustrating.

        Yes. But the problem is usually the company, not the medical provider. Because the company is asking for information that they are not legally entitled to. And the medical provider is *legally prohibited* from providing that information without a written release. And the company is actually, in case of something like FMLA, prohibited from making provision of this information a condition of providing leave.

        So, you are pointing your frustration at the wrong party.

        1. Cmdrshprd*

          “And the medical provider is *legally prohibited* from providing that information without a written release.”
          But I think that depends on if the provider is providing the info directly to the employer or to the patient.

          I’m not excusing the company, but the company being legally prohibited from asking for X information is different from the provider giving X information to the patient and the patient turning around. if the form is requested directly by the employer that is different.

          If I am getting the form the information is being provided to me not the employer, what I do with the paperwork after if I post it online or put it up on the town notice board is on me. Presumably I already have a signed authorization request on file to release records to myself.

        2. Tired*

          You can authorize your provider to release anything you want. This is YOUR information and if you authorize your provider to include it in the note no law is broken.
          This is the most misunderstood and misquoted law in America.

          1. Observer*

            Sure, but most of the time there is no written authorization, and smart doctors won’t act without it. And the company may not legally require the patient to sign that waiver as a condition of the leave.

    3. Boof*

      Yep. As a physician I try to run any letters past patients – in fact the letters always go to the patients to distribute – and my priority is to /help and protect my patients/ (within the scope of my practice). That means both putting the minimal amount needed (ie, sometimes all they need is “cleared to return to work with no restrictions” and nothing else), vs sometimes they are asking for a lot more (diagnosis, prognosis, etc) because they’re applying for some kind of patient assistance foundation etc. (i think it should go without saying but of course it also needs to be true to the best of my knowledge so if someone’s asking for something that seems outlandish I’m clear I won’t sign off on things that don’t match up with what I understand )

      1. Nightengale*

        I always ask what letters are for because the letter I write to try to get a patient supplemental medicaid coverage is going to be different than the letter I write trying to get a patient funding for a therapeutic summer camp, even if both letters document the same diagnoses.

    4. Dawbs*

      yes, I’m going to vehemently disagree with Alison here, please please PLEASE do what the PATIENT wants.

      it’s scummy and obnoxious… but my husband’s union, in lieu of having the employer give them health screens with their preferred fictitious every year, agreed to have diagnostic info on letters.
      it’s obnoxious, but when a medical professional refuses to honor this, it causes us SO MUCH trouble. The last time, after the vague note we hoped would be good enough, it wasn’t. And a sick human spent a few days trying to chase things down and eventually gave up and took it as an unexcused absence.

      And if course, this came with a 3 day suspension so my family, between the sick time and the suspension time and the subsequent fuckery with overtime, list more than a week’s party.

      it’s obnoxious, I hate it, but please listen to the patient.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        This is not about “listening to the patient”. This is not the doctor’s fault. If the union or employer is being obnoxious, take that up with them. Put the responsibility where it belongs.

        Pressuring healthcare providers to break the law or ethical code and complaining when they won’t is not right. If a medical professional “honored” an illegal request, that would also cause SO MUCH trouble. They could end up in jail or disqualified from working.

        1. Cmdrshprd*

          An employer making an illegal request is different from it being illegal to provide that information to the employer.

          Medical professionals do not have any responsibilities to manage employers risks.

          If I ask for my entire medical file because my employer asked for it, and the medical professional gives it to me and I give it to my employer does not mean the medical professional violated disclosure laws.
          Or even if I asked the medical professional to provide the records directly to the employer as long as I sign a release it’s fine, even if it’s illegal for the employer to ask for it.

        2. dawbs*

          Except if the patients ask for it it is NOT an illegal request.

          And the doctor can push against the employer, an employee can’t always do so. I mean, I could, and end up unemployed.
          So lets be clear, it is not an “illegal” request if it has been agreed to by the employee. Employees are agreeing, for reasons (and, I’ll admit, the job in question has legitimate public safety reasons to verify that employees are healthy enough to work in a way that isn’t true at all jobs), and the medical professional, by ignoring the wishes of the patient, are creating hardship for patients…

          For the love of little green apples, just please listen to patients. If the medical professional wants to have that fight, find a way NOT to screw over sick patients.
          Because by refusing to honor a LEGAL request by the patient (yes, if the patient asks for it, it is legal. The employer asking the doc for it is illegal, the patient asking is legal) all the medical professional is doing is fucking over sick patients)

        3. New Jack Karyn*

          It’s not illegal for a doctor to write down and sign accurate medical information about me, and give that paper to me. It just isn’t.

          Employees can be in a vulnerable position. If you don’t honor their legal request, they might lost their job, or have their pay docked.

          If that happens, who have you helped?

  12. Higher-ed Jessica*

    LW2, best anonymizing ever. I am enjoying the mere thought of your awesome Narnian heritage!

  13. Epsilon*

    #5 – I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the employer was unaware of what they are legally allowed to ask for. I used to be in a similar situation and provided the bare basics of the situation. When employers received the note, they would ask if that was all the information I was going to provide. Employees were visibly relieved when I confirmed that the employer (usually a manager) had all they needed to meet regulatory requirements.

    1. The Body Is Round*

      Yeah, if LW5 is in the US, there are some pretty strict laws about what can and can’t be divulged by a medical professional to someone other than the patient. You don’t have to wing it, it’s spelled out for you in law and likely in your own clinic’s policy documents.

      1. Just Another Techie*

        But those laws provide a mechanism for the patient to waive confidentiality. The whole point is to give the patient control over their sensitive data, so if the patient signs a release and asks you to please play along so they don’t get fired, that is one thousand percent legal

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          As long as they actually sign the release. I need the documentation. “Please fill it out” in conversation won’t cut it.

        2. Sarah With an H*

          At the same time, having a health care provider be the one to push back on giving sensitive data takes pressure off the employee to give info they aren’t comfortable giving (which definitely goes against the spirit of “patients having control over their data”)

        3. Observer*

          But those laws provide a mechanism for the patient to waive confidentiality

          Yes, but the company *may not* require the patient to waive confidentiality.

        4. Lenora Rose*

          But if the health provider is the one saying “Your boss doesn’t need this information legally; I can provide it if you want but I can also include a basic note and have them call me if they’re unsatisfied”, then the employee who doesn’t want to give the permission but is feeling pressured has a way out that won’t result in their firing.

          Sometimes the employee would rather include the info, and the doctor shouldn’t override them when that happens, and should provide the detail the patient requests. But sometimes they would rather not but don’t feel comfortable pushing back alone, or don’t even know they can; they might appreciate having the clinic on their side, and the chance to make an informed choice.

          1. Anonym*

            All of this, and particularly the point about the employer being able to call if they want more info. Many won’t take the extra step. You can make this a mild pain in the neck for them and protect your patients a little further.

          2. Annie*

            Right. the problem is that the more that employees give in to these demands, the more likely it is that employees that don’t want to give in to those demands and are not legally required to do so, will get punished because they aren’t providing that detailed information. Even though it’s illegal for the company to require it.

    2. HannahS*

      OP5, I’m in Canada so I can’t comment on anything legal, but my notes are generally vague as well. I wouldn’t even specify that it’s an acute condition, because sometimes it’s not, and anyway an acute flare of a chronic condition…eh, the terminology gets complicated and ultimately doesn’t matter to the employer.

      I say: To whom it may concern, John Doe was admitted to City General Hospital from March 21-26, 2025. Kindly allow their return to work on March 31 2025. Thanks, [etc.]” If I need to, I’ll add something like, “No lifting objects above 20 pounds until April 28” or “Please allow a graduated return to work for one week.” But usually if a formal accommodation plan needs to be in place, there’s more paperwork involved.

      I tell the patient to contact me if the employer makes a fuss. If I’m getting a sense that the patient is very nervous, I’ve sometimes said that I’ll happily talk with employer with the patient present to basically reiterate exactly what’s in the note. And politely/firmly reminded the employer of their legal obligations. But it’s actually never been needed.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I’m in Ireland and when I had my thyroidectomy, the hospital assured me that all they would write was that I’d been treated in the hospital and needed at least two weeks off. I didn’t care who knew I’d had my thyroid removed and had actually told my principal, but I can see that for some procedures, confidentiality would be more important.

        1. HannahS*

          Yeah, often my patients do feel comfortable sharing information with their employer, and I’ve sometimes done the same in my own workplace (though not always.) My experience has been that most employers are pretty reasonable and willing to accommodate, especially when it’s something like a 2-week absence or a brief recovery time. I’m often surprised how much my patients will text their supervisor and keep them posted. It’s nice to hear that a lot of workplaces are relatively supportive. So often I just hear about the opposite.

    3. ILoveLlamas*

      Since employers can be ignorant of the restrictions around medical disclosures, could you add a disclaimer paragraph at the bottom of the letter that cites why you are only divulging bare minimum information? Maybe that will nip the problem in the bud….

      1. Pickles*

        I think this is smart. I’m the receiver of these notes and don’t ask for details-just a note. Usually the notes are very detailed. I can imagine that some employers just expect the details.

  14. TheBunny*

    #1

    As hard as this is to hear, Alison is correct. Unless you are her manager, you say nothing.

    I understand the desire to report it. And I know you are certain it’s true…but here’s the problem: you weren’t part of the conversation or a witness. In order for any sort of investigation to happen you’re HR team won’t be able to only use your word. They are going to have to involve your coworker. And the boss.

    That’s going to be awkward and uncomfortable for everyone. It’s only going to be made worse by the fact that you’re coworker wasn’t ready or emotionally prepared for that eventuality.

    This absolutely sucks…but it’s not just a quick report and done. The person who was the actual victim of the harassment deserves the chance to handle it as they see fit.

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      You now knowing will be helpful in the future. If you ever observe anything yourself you can bring it a complaint forward and can reference this conversation as well. Or if your colleague changes their mind and makes a complaint she will likely share that she told you previously and that contemporaneous evidence is actually very powerful.

  15. Seashell*

    #5 is giving me flashbacks to childhood when I had to miss school once every 2-3 months for check ups of an ongoing medical condition. My mom would write a note for the school saying what the condition was, and I asked her to stop since I felt embarrassed by it. She said the school required that because it was a regular occurrence that I missed school. I still think it was kind of unnecessary, since I otherwise attended school with a typical amount of absences.

    Anyway, I wonder if part of the employers’ concerns are whether or not the condition is contagious.

  16. Alison but not that Alison*

    LW5- I am in total agreement that employers shouldn’t feel entitled to medical information…but in my field we often have people with injuries which stop them doing their main job but they can still do other things (they have a twisted ankle so can’t do physical work but they can sit in the office with their foot up to do the pile of data entry paperwork). Often the person doesn’t want to burn through their leave/use unpaid time off so it is actually mutually beneficial to have them in the office but, if they hand me a sick note that says they can’t work with no detail then there is no way I am letting them stay.
    I’m not sure how you manage it so you share that information on the restrictions without sharing the private stuff but, just an explanation for why a company might be asking that doesn’t mean they are prying and potentially being evil on purpose.

  17. TheBunny*

    #5

    And now it’s my turn to disagree with Alison.

    For a few reasons honestly. Yes these requests aren’t legal. But you aren’t the one risking your job when you refuse to be specific on a medical note. If the employee, for whatever reason, wants specifics on the note and say so… do it. Your desire to protect them is admirable but it’s not your PHI, it’s theirs.

    Also there are situations where the specifics are necessary. If a person is on intermittent FMLA for example, they need specifics on the note so they can be certain it’s handled correctly and charged/not charged to their FMLA bank.

    Your desire to protect is admirable. Please just make sure it’s protection your patients actually want.

    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      There’s nothing in the letter to indicate the patient had signed a HIPAA waiver. Which is what would be needed for a specific note.
      And employers are not allowed to require employees to waive HIPAA, either.
      Everyone needs to push back on employer overreach!

    2. LW5*

      FMLA is a completely different scenario – I really was just talking about “sick notes” to excuse an absence here or there.

      And I should have been clearer in my letter that I do always collaborate with patients on what’s in the letters I give them, and if they’re fine with including all the requested info I’ll absolutely go ahead and do it. I’m never out to cost anyone a job! But when they aren’t comfortable disclosing all of this (or occasionally, when the employer’s demands are completely disrespectful of my time)… it’s good to know what options exist.

      1. TheBunny*

        I take back most of my comment, LOL. I totally agree the employer is often being intrusive, but I love that you say this and then collaborate with the patient. You’re one of the good ones!

    3. I Have RBF*

      If the patient wants PHI disclosed to a third party like their employer, they need to fill out a HIPAA waiver saying how much can be disclosed. That covers the doc/practice, and gets the employer what they (irrationally) demand. FMLA requires that level of disclosure, but they have the waiver as part of the forms, IIRC.

      Both parties need to CYA

      1. TheBunny*

        No they don’t. Doctor provides note to patient. If patient wants to share info…good to go.

  18. Dead parent conundrums*

    To LW2: My dad has been dead for 12 years and I randomly referred to him in the present tense today when talking to someone and had to correct myself. It happens! I’m sure anyone who’s lost someone close to them has made that “mistake.”

    1. English Teacher*

      came here to say this. lw2, I hope you give yourself some grace, because if doing this is sociopathic then everyone in the world is sociopathic. hell, my mom has been dead for almost 15 years, and I still do this sometimes. sometimes on purpose! if someone is just saying, for example, their mom loves this TV show, I might just say “my mom loves it too!” using the past tense in that context or saying “my deceased mom” feels like putting too much emotional pressure on the person I’m talking to.

    2. CheesePlease*

      Yes, this happens to me too. “My grandmother’s name is Jane. Wait was Jane? I mean she’s dead but also that is still her name?” is an internal though I have a lot.

    3. 1-800-BrownCow*

      I just lost my mom in January, so this is all new territory for me. I find it hard and awkward to refer to her in the past tense. Or when I talk about the house I grew up in that my dad still lives in, I can’t just call it my dad’s house as that doesn’t sound right, I still say my parent’s house. Or I say, “my parents live in [town name]”. Which feels really awkward after I say it because my mom isn’t living, but also just saying my dad lives there, and not include my mom, doesn’t sound right either.

  19. Anon for now*

    LW 2, don’t feel bad. Anybody who’s lost a family member – especially suddenly – has been there. Sometimes it’s easy to forget that the person is deceased and not just on a long trip.

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Yeah, my mum died a week and a half ago and my brother put it as “it feels like any day, we’ll walk in and she’ll be just sitting there and we’ll be able to laugh about this: ‘remember that time you died!'” It sounds ridiculous but it is how it feels.

      3. Myrin*

        I’m so incredibly sorry to hear that, Irish. All the best to you, your family, and all of your other loved ones.

      4. Silver Robin*

        may her memory be a blessing (sounds like it certainly is). hugs from afar if you want them

      5. Media Monkey*

        So sorry Irish Teacher. My mum died over 3 years ago and i still find myself thinking that i must tell her about x or y! I don’t know how long it takes to override 40-odd years of them always being there, but it’s clearly longer than 3 years of them not being there.

        1. PhyllisB*

          Yes!! My mother passed away a year ago and I still want to call her and tell her about my day, ask advice, or let her know I returned home safe from a trip.

      6. Jackalope*

        I’m so sorry for your loss. And it’s so weird how the brain works and doesn’t know how to accept for awhile that someone is gone and things have changed.

      7. Observer*

        My father has been gone for close to 30 years, and some days it still feels that way.

        I don’t make that verbal mistake anymore, but in the early days? “Forgot” is not quite the right word for that particular brain blip.

      8. PhyllisB*

        Sorry for your loss, Irish Teacher. And you are so right; at times I still feel that way about my mother and my son.

    2. RIP Pillowfort*

      My dad will have been gone 10 years next year and I still slip up. I’ve even had to have this exact conversation with people!

      I didn’t realize they thought my dad was still living until they had said something like “you should send X to your dad/invite him to lunch/etc.” Then I have to bring up that no I can’t anymore. Also it’s only been 4 months! Lean into that the loss is still fresh and you didn’t want to bring up something uncomfortable with a new contact!

    3. Constance Lloyd*

      My husband caught himself drafting a text to his mom to let her know her friend was going to sing at her funeral. You spend decades building these habits, of course it takes a while for the instinct to catch up to the logic.

  20. Thepuppiesareok*

    OP5 I think you’re putting in too much information. I wouldn’t accept a note like that. Because it’s none of my employer’s information what I had. The fact that it’s a condition or acute isn’t needed. Just Person’s name was seen on X date. S/he may return to work on Y date with (list restrictions or no restrictions). Please excuse him/her for Z (number of days) days. This is what every medical professional I’ve seen has put on my notes and I’ve never had pushback. It does sound like those employers don’t know what can/can’t be asked for. Don’t give more information than needed. Tell them you’ve provided the needed information and anything more risks violating patient privacy.

    1. learnedthehardway*

      Agreeing – the word “acute” may conjure up concerns about the employee’s health that aren’t necessarily warranted. From a medical professional’s point of view, it may mean one thing, but the general world will think it means “serious”.

      I’m always very careful about what information I give my clients about my health, having seen one of them choose me over someone who they perceived to be in poor health, once. (Ironically, I had cancer at the time, which meant I was much sicker than the person they had passed over. I’d have liked to have said something sharp about it, but couldn’t afford to not take the work.)

        1. Silver Robin*

          It is not esoteric, but in lay terms it means “very” like “acutely painful”. Some folks might remember acute vs obtuse from geometry as well, but I think you might be overestimating how widely understood that term is in a medical context. I say this as a Smart Person Who Knows Lots of Words, and it took me a second to remember that. Someone hearing “acute condition” might very well think “serious” or “intense” rather than “one off”.

          1. Clisby*

            Similarly, I’ve been surprised at the number of people who apparently think “elective surgery” means surgery that’s just done at the whim of the patient, instead of meaning non-emergency surgery. I would guess that most cancer surgeries are elective.

            1. Annie*

              I’ve worked in surgical practices and have seen heart bypass surgery categorized as “elective” because while it needed to happen it didn’t have to be right now.

            2. londonedit*

              And the other way – in the vast majority of cases ’emergency caesarian’ just means ‘caesarian that wasn’t planned in advance’. But people are always saying ‘…and she had to have an EMERGENCY caesarian’, as if it was a life-or-death situation. The word ’emergency’ just makes people think ‘about to die’.

              1. Observer*

                But people are always saying ‘…and she had to have an EMERGENCY caesarian’, as if it was a life-or-death situation.

                Well, as it happens, most “unplanned” c-sections actually are genuine emergencies that are life-or-death or quite close to it. So that’s not quite the mistake you seem to think it is. This is especially true if the team is both competent and does not push the procedure unless *actually* necessary.

        2. Ellis Bell*

          That’s what learnedthehardway is talking about; that is the general misunderstanding of the word, yes.

        3. ScruffyInternHerder*

          But when you’re not in a medical field….there’s at best confusion as to what this means! (I suspect that the most likely to catch it in my workplace would be our corporate safety officer, who is not going to be reviewing any doctors notes. Thankfully my workplace does not required doctors notes unless you actually require FMLA or other leave.)

    2. metadata minion*

      I’m a bit confused by your objection to “condition”. Basically everything that you could go to a doctor for is a condition of some kind. Or is there some narrower medical definition I’m not aware of?

      2. doreen*

        I think the objection to “condition” is that outside of a medical context a lot of short term illnesses wouldn’t normally be referred to as a condition. There are all sorts of ways a person might describe an upset stomach but ” I have an acute medical condition” isn’t one of them.

    3. Susan*

      The form that you describe is what I would expect to see in Canada, and no one would expect to get more than that. It was good that you included return to work restrictions, which aren’t in the form that the LW uses, but are really necessary.

    4. Michelle*

      Family member had an employer that wanted that additional information. Cue the doctors “malicious compliance”- he wrote a half-page extremely detailed summation that my family member was experiencing dysentery, went on to describe the graphic symptoms, and even included that they should toilet tissue with aloe. This was about 10 years ago. The employer apologized to my family member, stated the minimal note would be fine for the future and even sent an apology note to the doctor.

      1. Joana*

        I sort of hope they included a “You died from dysentary” screenshot from The Oregon Trail. But the practical part of me realizes that employers could take that wrong. Oh well.

  21. Meaningful hats*

    OP 5 – A few years ago I had a surgery that required two weeks of recovery, during which I was unable to work. It was a job that required in-person attendance and heavy lifting. My boss asked for a note from my surgeon outlining the name of the procedure, how the surgery and recovery specifically impacted my ability to do my job, and an explanation for why the recovery time was as long as it was. My surgeon refused to write the note and said my boss could call her if she had a problem with it. My boss griped about not getting the note she wanted but she did let me take the two weeks off. I was secretly pleased that my surgeon pushed back, because it showed my boss that people outside the organization thought she was being ridiculous.

    1. TGIF*

      I would certainly hope she would “let” you take the time off needed for recovery good lord. And no your employer doesn’t need to know all that sheesh.

    2. 1-800-BrownCow*

      Good for your surgeon!!

      When I had my youngest child, I was working for a different employer than when I had my first 2 kids. I was quite surprised when the HR manager at my job gave me an 8-page packet that needed filled out by the OB/GYN office before I could return to work at the end of my FMLA (which was only 5 weeks because timing of when I had my baby, and the company rule about using up any PTO time for FMLA leave meant that when I received my PTO for the calendar year, if I took the full 12 weeks of FMLA, I would have returned in mid-February with no PTO time for the rest of the year!) The HR manager insisted the packet needed to be completely filled out for “legal requirements for FMLA” and it was full of questions about the birth, my child’s care needs, my own personal care needs, how long was I expected to care for my child (um, 18 years???), and all sorts of other probing questions. The woman at the OB/GYN office that handled paperwork said she’d been doing her job for almost 30 years and had never had a patient need paperwork like that completed. I told her what the HR manager had said about legal requirements for FMLA, and she informed me that my HR manager didn’t know squat about FMLA. She did complete it for me, but I kinda wish she pushed back.

      Thankfully, my company sold to a larger company, HR Manager butted heads with some of the new management (she could no longer make her own rules to suit her) and was pushed out the door. It’s been 10 years since I had my last child, and we have a couple young, pregnant employees now. I’m happy that they don’t have to deal with the HR nightmare I went through during my pregnancy and FMLA leave (this story was only 1 of the many things I dealt with). The only thing I wish was different is that I knew about this website at the time and could have gotten some advice from Alison on how to handle things.

  22. I didn't say banana*

    LW3 Yes, Elizabeth was wholly unreasonable. However, if someone has immediately become frustrated about something, that’s not the time to join the conversation and give them more information about the thing that annoyed them. You’re not responsible for her emotions, but a little tact might have helped.

    1. Annie*

      LW said she gave Elizabeth 30 minutes to cool off. Was that enough to show tact? If not, how much time after the initial outburst must one wait to count as showing tact?

      Also, it’s possible Elizabeth just doesn’t take last-minute changes well. It’s not clear that the LW is actually Elizabeth’s manager, but if the LW is, it might be helpful to game-plan alternate workflow scenarios in advance, so Elizabeth and other affected coworkers can eventually just be told, “Today is a Workflow B day,” or other shorthand that is less likely to cause an outburst.

      1. Annie*

        I re-read and realize you were talking about the LW’s response after the supervisor spoke up, but my question of how much cooling off time counts as “showing tact” for rule-of-thumb purposes remains.

    2. Tokei*

      ” I joined in the conversation and let her know I had taken care of some extra work to so she wouldn’t have to adjust from her normal workflow and gave her some follow-up info to make her workday easier.”

      All of the info the LW shared was valuable information to REDUCE Elizabeth’s stress in the moment. I don’t think there’s anything tactless about that, or anything tactful about withholding information and letting a coworker build up a head of steam because they think a situation is more stressful than it actually is.

      2. Joana*

        Exactly. I work in fast food. If I came in one day to see half my coworkers called off that day, I’d be rightfully upset. But then if someone approached me and said “Hey Joana, we finished the dishes and other side work that usually isn’t done until later in the day so you don’t have to worry about that” I’d be pretty grateful. It seems like Elizabeth was determined to stay mad.

      3. Another Kristin*

        Yeah, if I were the LW I’d think twice before I did extra work to help Elizabeth out again, since she bit my head off about it last time I did!

    3. learnedthehardway*

      Considering that LW3 had DONE some of the work, it was important for her to tell Elizabeth before Elizabeth went and started to do the same work.

    4. Allonge*

      It’s work, not a group of friends hanging out.

      In some workplaces – like healthcare – work needs to happen and take precedence over the emotional states of the employees. Especially if the emotional state is about ‘it’s too early in the day’.

      1. Tokei*

        Yeah, my comments in this thread so far have all been about how silly it is to say that it’s tactless for LW to not somehow magically mindread that Elizabeth is the one person on Earth who would prefer to be stressed about incorrect information for longer rather than be told helpful information immediately, but also… it’s healthcare. There’s not always going to be a better moment to go over the information.

        (So much of my day working in hospitals is chasing people down so we can find literally three overlapping minutes to talk about what we need to talk about! Start of shift is the best time to have those conversations because people haven’t scattered to the four corners of the earth yet!)

        1. Jay (no, the other one)*

          Yup. A lot of institutions do huddles at the start of shift explicitly to share that kind of info – it’s been shown to improve patient safety (when it’s done right). And start of shift is *start of shift.* If I need to put my coat away before the huddle, I need to get there a few minutes early.

          1. Nightengale*

            Yup my outpatient team’s huddle will start in about 10 minutes. It’s often the only time we have a chance to check in about the day except in snatched moments between patients.

      2. Melody Powers*

        She would fit right in at an old workplace of mine. Everyone would come in and sit around the breakroom for half an hour. I would have preferred to go right to work but they were quick to see passive aggressive slights were none were intended and would see it as a silent rebuke if I didn’t join them no matter how cheerful and/or matter-of-fact I was about it, so I stayed and talked to them each morning. Maybe Elizabeth needs to find a field where that’s more feasible and a group that’s happy to do that.

    5. I didn't say banana*

      Yes, the LW should have been able to give this information to Elizabeth and it is Elizabeth’s fault that they couldn’t. That being said, an angry brain is not a logical one and people get more annoyed if they are given more information while trying to calm themselves. Even if the information is helpful. As you can see by the fact that Elizabeth stormed off to get away from it.

      A more helpful response in the moment might have been “come talk to me when you’re ready to talk about plans for the day” (said in a genuine, kind tone, not condescending).

      1. Tokei*

        Some people react to anger that way. But if I was feeling super frustrated and anxious about all the extra work I suddenly had to do and all the ways I had to rearrange my day’s workflow to fit it in, and someone popped in like “but don’t worry! I already did XYZ, so all you have to handle is ABC during the timeslot you would normally XYZ!,” I would offer them my firstborn.

        Meanwhile, if someone saw that I was getting frustrated and they for some reason chose not to give me the information that would stop my frustration spiral in its tracks? And instead told me to come find them “when I was ready” (read: after you have already processed all the needless emotions that this incomplete information is causing you,) only to reveal that they knew that information all along? That would piss me off. I would not only think that was a singularly unhelpful response, but an outright insensitive one.

        1. I didn't say banana*

          The point is that Elizabeth reacted this way. As she got more annoyed, not less, LW should have stopped.

          1. Tokei*

            Your initial statement was that the LW shouldn’t have joined the conversation to offer the information in that moment because Elizabeth was already annoyed. That is what I was responding to. LW did nothing wrong or tactless by offering the information in that moment, and I would bet very strongly that the vast majority of people would prefer to get helpful information sooner rather than later and would have responded to the LW in that spirit.

            If you are changing the conversation to “LW should have disengaged from the conversation after seeing that their helpful information was just making Elizabeth more upset,” then, like, sure.

            1. I didn't say banana*

              I guess my point is that, seeing that someone is annoyed, butting into the conversation with lots of info could potentially make the person more annoyed. A simple “your workday is unchanged” could have done the trick.

              And then my second point, when people said that they would want the information, is that Elizabeth clearly didn’t. So there were two missed opportunities for the LW to not add to Elizabeth’s annoyance. Hence my suggestion that a little tact could have gone a long way.

              I still think Elizabeth is completely in the wrong, but maybe the LW could read the room better next time.

              1. Tokei*

                My point is that your definition of “read the room” seems to be “preemptively intuit how Elizabeth specifically would want this information delivered to her and in what specific words, despite that being totally opposite to what most people would prefer.”

              2. CityMouse*

                I’m sorry but I think that’s absurd. The comment was meant to reduce stress and giving minimal info seems more like coyly hiding the ball and unhelpful. LW did absolutely bithjbg wrong here and coworker throwing a tantrum about being given work info when she starts at work is totally and completely unreasonable.

                1. I didn't say banana*

                  OK, fair, I clearly feel differently about this than other people. When I read the letter, I got to the point where the writer saw Elizabeth was annoyed and started giving her lots of info, and I could feel my teenage self getting more and more annoyed with my mother who would not shut up when I just needed a few seconds of silence to calm myself.

                  So, I would have intuited not to approach Elizabeth in that moment. My immature self would have stormed off too (thankfully I’m an adult now).

                  I know that Elizabeth was wrong to get so annoyed, especially in a workplace setting. But I also understand why she did.

                2. Allonge*

                  @I didn’t say banana

                  Well, Elizabeth is also supposed to be an adult, an adult at work responsible for other people’s health no less.

                  Part of which is arriving to work ready to work – no problem to need time to compose / prep yourself but that needs to happen, on most days, before work starts.

                  Storming off for getting too much information too early in the day also needs to be reserved for days when you have an actual, serious problem (family sick, accident etc.) and not for start of shift.

                  And if someone needs a few minutes to compose themselves, that too is on an adult to handle by walking away.

                  There is nothing wrong with taking note of someone else’s state and not approaching them unless necessary, of course, that is kind. But at work kindness gets overridden by the job all the time.

                3. Mentally Spicy*

                  I think you’re completely right, but I also want to say that “bithjbg” is one of the finest typos I’ve ever seen!

                4. Observer*

                  and I could feel my teenage self getting more and more annoyed with my mother who would not shut up when I just needed a few seconds of silence to calm myself.

                  And that right there is the signal you should be heeding. Simply put, an adult in the workplace should generally absolutely NOT be reacting like their “teenage self”. And what the LW was providing was not just “blather”, but necessary information about the work they share.

                  But I also understand why she did.

                  It’s fine to *understand*. What is *not* fine is to then out the burden of Elizabeth’s immature reaction on the LW. As Alison notes, it is not their job to manage her outsize and frankly inappropriate emotional response. You (generic you) get to feel how you feel. You don’t always get to *act* on those feelings, though.

              3. Irish Teacher.*

                I think the fact that it’s healthcare changes that a little. If the LW needs to give Elizabeth important information about a patient’s care, then it has to be done regardless of how Elizabeth feels about it.

                Elizabeth’s annoyance cannot be prioritised over patients’ needs.

                3. Dust Bunny*

                  Yeah, this. I could ask someone to give me a minute at my job, but I’m not in patient-facing healthcare. I’ve worked jobs before where I could not reasonably ask this and it was on me to be ready to work when my shift started no matter how I was feeling personally.

              4. Ellis Bell*

                This is an approach that would I would use with a dysregulated student (I work in SEN education), not with a colleague. I say that as someone who hates an info dump, and hates getting a lot of verbal information when I am stressed; however this was literally a ‘don’t worry about it’ memo. I think there’s always room for reading people’s moods, and for allowing people to not be perfect, but it really is Elizabeth’s responsibility for setting ground rules on how to give her the information she needs; anything else, with people tiptoeing around her, is too patronising. Also, the approaches she requires have to work for everyone. I think Elizabeth messed up here (and understandably so, people mess up and are human).

              5. Observer*

                butting into the conversation

                That assumes a personal conversation which did not relate to the LW. But that’s not true.

                A simple “your workday is unchanged” could have done the trick.

                Maybe, and maybe not. Because it sounds like it was not *just* that the workflow had not changed, but there was also some specific information involved.

            2. Too Fat for Work Pants*

              I think we would have just had the same letter from the opposite problem if OP did not offer the issue with Elizabeth being mad she was not told the info; it seems she is very annoyed at the situation and wants to find issue in how OP handled it either way. The major difference is OP would be in the wrong there for not communicating.

              1. CityMouse*

                I mean also, to some extent no, I don’t care about someone’s inappropriate emotional reaction when I need to communicate important work information they’re going to need during the day. Especially in something like healthcare. It’s not LW’S job to cater to walk on eggshells around someone who’s apparently upset that they’re expected to do their job while at work.

              2. Tokei*

                Right, exactly. It’s very obvious that the issue is that Elizabeth was frustrated about the situation and was just taking it out on the LW, and there was no perfect set of words or perfect discussion timing that was going to make her happier about it being a short-staffed day. (She was upset to hear that LW helped her; are we really buying that she would’ve been less upset to think she was shouldering the work alone?)

                LW gave her what 99.9% of us would want in that situation– “things have had to move around, but here’s the stuff I took off your plate to make it easier”– and it’s bonkers to argue that they were somehow lacking in tact for doing that.

          2. Ginger Cat Lady*

            Time critical information in healthcare cannot wait for Elizabeth’s fee-fees.
            If you’re the patient who has needs not being met because Elizabeth is having a tantrum, would you say the same thing?

      2. Arrietty*

        It’s Elizabeth’s job to work when her shift starts. Whether she feels ready is irrelevant. What if she doesn’t feel ready for another two hours? It’s already been half an hour.

        Handover time in healthcare is an absolutely frantic time, you can’t just stand around chatting for an hour to ease into it.

        1. CityMouse*

          Handover is also an absolutely crucial time in patient care and is recognized as the most common time when error is introduced.

        2. No Tribble At All*

          Right? I’m appalled. You think I want to miss being seen because the nurse is off having emotions somewhere due to…. being given her handover instructions?

        3. Not on board*

          A Plus to everything you said. I would add that if Elizabeth needs time to settle before she actually starts working, then she should come in early, get settled, and be ready to go when her shift starts.

        4. Guacamole Bob*

          Agreed.

          I work in an office setting, not healthcare, and people start at different times in the morning. It sometimes happens that a person feels kind of accosted by being approached to talk about something time-sensitive when they are just walking in the door, but the appropriate response is a simple “let me take off my coat and then I’ll swing by your office to discuss”, not storming off in a huff.

      3. Turquoisecow*

        But like, “talk about plans for the day,” is a thing that needs to happen before the day starts. I get that she’s annoyed to walk into work and be bombarded immediately with “actually here’s a bunch of information and changes you have to make,” but that’s stuff that you have to do at a job, it can’t be like “have a seat and drink some coffee, read some email, ease into things,” especially if we’re talking about patient care. If Elizabeth can’t handle that sort of environment then maybe this isn’t the job for her.

        1. Antilles*

          especially if we’re talking about patient care. If Elizabeth can’t handle that sort of environment then maybe this isn’t the job for her.
          This. The fact it’s patient care is extremely relevant.
          In many industries, it wouldn’t be a big deal to ask someone to come back in a few minutes once you’ve gotten going. Nothing is going wrong if I tell a co-worker to come back with marketing strategy notes at 9:30 AM rather than exactly at 9:00 sharp. Some office workers even have a specific strategy to block out the first few minutes of their day and use that time for paperwork or planning or etc.
          But not in patient care; the patient has to come first and Elizabeth needs to find a way to make sure she’s ready to roll when her shift starts.

      4. Observer*

        A more helpful response in the moment might have been “come talk to me when you’re ready to talk about plans for the day”

        Helpful to who, though?

        On the one hand, this means that the LW is going to have to interrupt their work at some unplanned time, which is not all that reasonable especially in a context like this. On the other hand, it means that Elizabeth might inappropriately change her work flow or do extra work before she comes to talk to the LW. That’s not exactly helpful to anyone.

        Elizabeth should have been apologizing for her reaction and she needs to be working on how she deals with her start of shift.

    6. Lenora Rose*

      A little tact is exactly why you give the extra info as soon as is feasible.

      I’m in a job where I DO often have time to make my coffee, drink it, get settled in… and it has still happened that I met my boss coming in and we ended up talking over some important plans for the day before I had turned off the music on my headset or climbed the stairs to our department, much less taken off my coat or made my coffee. It happens.

      You compared her reaction to your teenaged self, and that’s the thing; we expect most adults to have a better handle on emotional regulation and a better capacity to speak up with what they need.

      If Elizabeth had said, “Hey, let me take off my coat and come back to you in a minute when I can focus”, there would be a place to say the LW was in the wrong for telling her everything at once, because then Elizabeth would have expressed a need and LW would be ignoring it.

      But looking at someone stressing out at being told they’re short staffed, the LOGICAL way to interpret her reaction is that she’s stressing because of all the work she’s envisioning, and if so, the cure for that stress is to say “Actually, it won’t be as bad because A&B are handled and off your plate”, not to let her stew in her feelings.

  23. Filthy Vulgar Mercenary*

    LW3! My dear! My suggestion is to stop walking on eggshells around her.

    Please take this completely overstepping comment that I’m about to make, from the sincerest and most genuine-hearted space I can possibly muster. A lot of this comment is a response to myself, as well.

    Everyone seems afraid of her from what you describe. I am thinking of captain awkward missing stair concept and the geek social fallacies if you’re not already familiar.

    Everyone knows how she is so they tiptoe and pre-accommodate and be extra compassionate, and it never works because she loses respect for whoever does that.

    Because she IS treating people disrespectfully, and if you let her, then with the way cognitive dissonance works, it’s easier for her to confirm in her mind that you are acting that way because you deserved it, rather than you are acting that way because you’re legit nervous around her because of a way she is (and all the implications and self reflection and secure attachment that would be needed to help someone who is just discovering that sometimes they’re actually a real jerk…and without abandoning themselves in the process… yeah that would require a LOT of support and highly resourced time) – so yeah, she’s not going to do it. And so each time you do pre-appeasement, it is going to end up working against you because she’s going to confirm in her mind that you deserved it.

    Sounds counterintuitive maybe, but if someone is not operating in good faith, then they’re not going to be swayed by you being nice to them – because they’ll just hear you implicitly asking them if this offering is enough for them to not get mad anymore, and that puts them back into having to answer the question „are they talking to me like that because they think I’m abusive?” and the cognitive dissonance is off to the races again. It comes up as a shield before they can even let the thought form in their minds that they may be in the wrong here.

    So I’d say, back way off and don’t manage her responses. If she makes a group meeting awkward, let her fix it. Don’t act like she didn’t just shit the bed; she did. But, this isn’t your circus to fix, it sounds like (since you’re not her manager) so just go about your day doing the hard work of being at peace with yourself if someone is mad at/around/about you or others.

    Here is what I’m looking at to show you why I made those conclusions; honestly it makes me wonder if you grew up scared because this seems pretty automatic behavior, it really rings something in me to read this. If I’m off please disregard!

    „Elizabeth came into work and started small-talking with people right away. As soon as a supervisor spoke up (after giving her time to finish her conversation) **making a point of showing the supervisor is being respectful**to let her know about workflow changes for the day, she became incredibly frustrated and seemed to be holding back from saying something **you picking up on her internal state, monitoring her**

    I joined in the conversation **you weren’t part of it initially** and let her know I had taken care of some extra work **did you feel worried about her reaction when you thought to take care of it** to so she wouldn’t have to adjust from her normal workflow and gave her some follow-up info to make her workday easier **lots of soothing of her**. In the middle of us talking to her, she stormed off **this is controlling as fuck**

    I figured she might be having a hard day **making excuses for her** so I gave her time to cool off and half an hour later checked in on her **still following up after she stormed off**. She was still angry and said she couldn’t handle talking about work that early in the day. Her shift just started. **she is avoiding apologizing; refer also to cognitive dissonance**)

    *How can I adjust to Elizabeth’s responses in the future?**you are adjusting yourself again, after she shit the bed three times without acknowledgment or apology?**

    I would like to be compassionate and try to understand where she’s coming from **honey, this makes me so sad to read**

    I would recommend getting very clear in your own mind why you deserve to be here. Imagine the situation you described but instead of joining the conversation, you just stand there and feel the pull on your body drawing you in to the convo. So just notice. Imagine what it’s like to NOT lean in and pre-appease someone’s obvious and deliberately passive aggressive anger. What do you feel?

    Do you feel dread or fear? Are you imagining being asked a lot of questions and feeling confused and slow and frozen and thinking of so many different things? Are you remembering anything that reminds you of her from your past?

    Are you running through different scenarios like ‚what if she says…” and then you don’t know how to respond authentically, and instead you are trying to prevent her anger?

    If you are imagining some ‚what if’ scenarios and you get stuck in any of them, I recommend actually going through all the scenarios, so that she can’t influence you by catching you off guard. Answer the questions that you come up with until they feel true to you and you’re able to do them. Captain awkward and Reddit and of course this site would be good places to post stuff you were stuck on.

    Finally, may I remind all of us that these grown ass humans are just as responsible for their own emotions as you are being with yours AND theirs; and if you keep traveling down this road you end up talking yourself out of your unalienable right to not like being mistreated, or not having someone try to influence your behavior in sneaky ways, to not be around people inflicting their anger on others.

    1. I Have RBF*

      Yeah, quit coddling Elizabeth’s feefees. She pulling passive-aggressive manipulation on you, and you need to at the very least grey rock it, and preferably judo it back to her.

  24. Annie*

    I wonder if customer service job standards give some employees unrealistic expectations re:ability to influence other people’s reactions to stuff they don’t want to hear.

    I once worked a customer service job where reps were dinged for every dissatisfied survey even if the gist of the bad review was, “Rep told me no because of policy and left me in this bad situation”. Management expected reps to be able to sweet talk virtually every case of having to tell a customer something they didn’t want to hear out of giving a bad review when we were required to let them down.

    That’s not to mention stuff that often happens in other dealings with humans!

    1. Too Fat for Work Pants*

      Arep doing that excessively would just annoy me- if nothing can be done and no exception made, that is it. I don’t need to be consoled by a stranger.

    2. Curious*

      They’re customer service reps, not diplomats (who are supposed to be able to tell you to go to hell but make you look forward to the trip).

      1. Ex-Teacher*

        It gives the MBAs a way to quantify something that’s not really quantifiable, in a way that requires no human thought or discretion, so they can show they’re doing important things without actually expending effort and money.

        Because profits are more important than humans, after all.

        1. Joana*

          It also gives them an excuse to not give workers raises or promotions. “Oh we were going to give you a $2/hr raise but you got a four instead of five on this survey so we can’t, sorry.”

      2. metadata minion*

        Yep. At this point I’m not the only person I know who gives the maximum value on everything unless the employee actually stabs me, because I know they’re going to get penalized unfairly for anything less that perfect scores.

        1. Joana*

          Having worked in food service for over eight years now, I still might give them a full score if they stabbed me. There are extenuating circumstances.

          Jokes aside, yeah, the only thing I can think of that would make me give a score of anything less than perfect is, like, they went on a racist/misogynistic/anti-LGBT rant. I don’t like customers doing it when I’m working and I don’t like workers doing it when I’m shopping. Most other things I can chalk up to a bad day.

        2. SophieChotek*

          Same
          Worked in food service most of my life and we got dinged for anything less than a perfect score

  25. Rebecca*

    LW2: not sociopathic! My dad died 7 years ago and I still forget and use the present tense. I’ve stopped worrying about it and just let it go.

    To your contact – ‘It’s new, I haven’t gotten used to using the last tense yet.’ If they judge you instead of sympathising and moving on, they’re the sociopaths, not you.

    1. OwnedByCats*

      Same here! He’s been gone 6 years and I still tend to refer to him in present tense because I think about him a lot. LW2, you were close to him, you lost him just a short time ago, and it’s entirely normal – especially in this specific context of Narnia heritage – to have been thinking of him and not past-tensing him. Rebecca’s quick sentence & Alison’s framing are perfectly fine, and in my experience most people will understand. It’s a giant hole in your life!

    2. Ellis Bell*

      Yeah, I’m still using the present tense several years on for my dad too. Sometimes I even do it right after I’ve let people know he’s gone! “Yeah, my dad’s funeral was pretty big. He’s the kind of person who loves a party.” I don’t police it any more. Weirdly enough, it’s never as awkward as you think to correct people who think he’s still alive (although you do get in the habit of letting people know sooner after it happening once or twice). There’s something about your speech making him a part of your present day, (and being very aware that he would be proud of your work!) which defuses the awkwardness; hard to explain, but true. Alison’s phrasing is perfect.

    3. Mentally Spicy*

      I wanted to say that too. It’s completely normal and very human to mix up tenses when someone dies. You’ve lived your whole life referring to them in the present tense and it’s only natural to take some time to get used to using the part tense. My dad died ten years ago and it still brings me up short sometimes when I remember he’s not around.

    4. umami*

      My dad died about … 14 years ago, I think? On occasion I will have a very realistic dream about him and wake up actually confused about whether he is really dead. I know that sounds weird, but in the dreams I always feel like I dreamt that my dad died, but here he is, doing stuff with us! But that’s the dream! The brain can do some weird things. It takes me a little time when I wake up to adjust to the reality.

  26. Greyhound*

    LW 5: this makes me so mad. Employers have no right to this information. One of the best bosses I had said once, if I trust you, I don’t need it. If I don’t trust you you shouldn’t be working for me anyway (he trusted everyone until proved otherwise). However people may legitimately prefer to keep their job and be able to feed their family however unfair that is. I’d go with informing them they are not obliged to provide this information but then doing what they need if they want you to.

  27. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

    LW3 – when I read that Elizabeth was still angry “and said she couldn’t handle talking about work that early in the day”, it made me laugh. So when is the best time to talk about work, when you are at work? On alternative Wednesdays perhaps?

    1. Irish Teacher.*

      Yup, reading the title, I assumed it was going to be a case of Elizabeth getting annoyed that the LW waited until the start of her shift and didn’t contact then in advance as the information was time-sensitive. It didn’t even occur to me that she would be annoyed the LW gave her the information quickly, because…that is just a bananapants reaction.

      It’s nice of the LW to want to accommodate her but honestly, some requests are too unreasonable to adapt to.

    2. CityMouse*

      Seriously if Elizabeth needs time to be at work but not be working she needs to show up early so she can stand outside and drink coffee or something became it’s completely bananapants to not want to get work info when you’re working. That’s not how it works at any place I have ever worked, at any level.

    4. DJ Abbott*

      I am Not a Morning Person in a job where I need to be awake, articulate, and cheerful at 8:30 AM.
      I don’t expect the job to accommodate my non-morningness and allow me to just sit around and rest until after lunch. I get up two hours before leaving the house to have a good breakfast, put on comfortable but good looking clothes, and go to work awake and in a good mood.
      Elizabeth needs to do the same. She needs to manage herself and her life so that she can show up to work ready to work. I’m a little shocked that I sound like an authority figure here, but that’s how it is.

    5. Turquoisecow*

      Yeah I don’t work in anything nearly as important or urgent as patient care but I’ve had days where I walked into work and my boss came over right away and threw a bunch of stuff at me that needed to be taken care of quickly. Did I like having urgent stuff thrown at me at 8:30 AM when I was still half asleep? No. Did I get mad and storm off and make him come back later? No, because then I probably would have gotten fired. I was at work, therefore it was the time to talk about work. Sometimes I’d tell him to hang on while I put my stuff down and sometimes he could see I needed a minute so he’d go to his office and tell me to find him once I’d at least turned on my computer. But “I don’t want to talk about work,” is a ridiculous thing to say when you’re AT work.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Exactly.

        Even now, if I need a moment to get logged in to handle something, it’s “Hang on, let me get logged in to the system that I access that from” not “I don’t want to talk about it.”

    6. I Have RBF*

      Yeah, Elizabeth is being a special snowflake.

      I have to be ready to talk about and do work when I log on in the morning, even if I haven’t finished my coffee. I may be slower, but that doesn’t mean I can tell the person “Don’t talk to me about my job while I’m on the job.” That’s not how any of this works. Sure, some days I’m not thrilled that my plans for the day got pre-empted, but that’s my problem, not my coworkers’.

      The first thing I do is check in and then read my email for urgent stuff/changes, because that’s the nature of my work. Even when I worked on an assembly line, I had to be able to handle changes each day, because what parts were needed or unavailable changed from day to day.

      The only constant is change. Elizabeth needs to get over herself.

  28. MrsThePlague*

    LW with the spouse with an awesome boss:

    It’s so, so great that your hubby finally has a great and supportive boss, and so sad that this has been so uncommon in his life, that you’re wanting to reach out to thank the supportive boss for being awesome (not that it’s sad to want to thank someone, just sad it’s been so hard for you/him). I totally understand the urge, and also totally understand and agree with Alison’s point.

    I wonder if there’s something small you could do ‘in her honour’, but without involving her, as a way to express gratitude and pass along the good vibes she inadvertently gave to you – like, buy a small piece of art from a local artist when you might not normally, or donate an old suit to an organization that helps women get work clothes; something maybe slightly work related since the good things are coming from a work context.

    Obviously you wouldn’t tell her about this, it would just be a place for you to ‘send’ the good feelings, and maybe be part of inspiring similarly good feelings in someone else.

    May be a little to ‘woo-woo’ (hopefully not too weird!), but I sometimes find exercises like that give me an outlet for my feelings while not needing to involve anyone or cross any boundaries.

  29. bamcheeks*

    LW2, this is NIT sociopathic, it’s completely normal. My mum died 15 years ago next month and I still sometimes use the present tense or talk about my parents’ house rather than my dad’s house. It’s just completely normal, and please don’t feel you’ve done anything wrong. You can just switch to past tense, or say something like, “oh, I wish I could tell him, he’d love this!” It is really, really normal, especially when it’s so new.

    1. CityMouse*

      It’s also A) kind of hard to say it out loud and B) hard to deal with someone’s reaction to it while at work. There’s nothing wrong with not wanting to have that conversation with a professional contact while at work.

    2. Numbat*

      And particularly when LW was talking about her Dad’s country of origin – it might naturally come out “My Narnian Dad always said…” or whatever, that is technically correct but with room to misinterpret. Definitely not sociopathic, definitely not a big deal!

      1. CityMouse*

        My kid just the other day was talking about his grandparents’ trip to a friend and he didn’t add the detail that his granddad had since died. My kindergartener is definitely not a sociopath, he just wanted to tell a funny story about his granddad.

        Sometimes when someone has died, esprcially when it’s more recent, the fact that they’re gone can be the dominating part of all conversations and sometimes that just gets kind of sad. Sometimes you get tired of having the same sad conversation over and over you just want to tell a funny story about them without going through it again.

      2. londonedit*

        Yeah, especially if you say something like ‘Oh, my dad was born in Narnia…’ and then carry on the conversation – you might not think it’s relevant, or have space in the story, to say ‘…but he’s no longer with us’. You just tell the story. And then I think it’d be totally fine to say ‘Oh, I know I didn’t say before, but my dad passed away just over a year ago. I still feel like he’s here! He really would have loved the fact that I’m working with Narnian clients now’.

      3. Lexi Vipond*

        It’s so easy to talk about a dead person in a present tense sentence (‘You’ve got an office in Beruna? All my dad’s family are from around there.’) or a living person in the past tense (‘My dad used to spend all his holidays near Cair Paravel when he was a kid, he loved it.’) that it seems very unlikely the other person will think the OP has been lying or acting strangely and not that they misunderstood. (Especially if one of them is having the conversations in a second language, maybe.)

    3. Your Local Password Resetter*

      Yeah, humans are really bad at processing huge, sudden changes like this. Unless it’s staring you in the face every day, it takes a long time for the new normal to really sink in.

      This person has been a part of your life since you were born, and even after you moved out they’re always still around and available. It’s been a basic fact of life since the day you were born.
      And now that suddenly changed. But your brain still has all those mental grooves that were created and deepened for decades. It’s only natural that you’d fall back into them from time to time, that’s just how human brains work.

  30. Inkognyto*

    LW 5: Also you should not be disclosing Medical information because of HIPAA.

    You don’t share medical information about patients to anyone that isn’t authorized when you work in healthcare.

    1. Arrietty*

      I’m not in the US so not hugely familiar with HIPAA but writing a doctor’s note at the patient’s request doesn’t sound like something that would be prohibited.

      1. Lady Lessa*

        Not in the medical field, but the line is probably between being sick and needing a certain amount of time (acceptable) BECAUSE of a knee replacement due to congenital malformation of the joint (unacceptable from the word because)

        1. ecnaseener*

          No, Arietty is right. You can disclose whatever you want to the patient, it’s their info. Once the patient is in possession of the note, it’s no longer protected by HIPAA — HIPAA only protects information held by a “covered entity” (aka medical provider or etc).

          If you were going to send the note directly to the patient’s employer for them, then yeah HIPAA would apply and you’d need a release – for any info, including that the patient had a visit on X date.

          1. Somehow I Manage*

            While you’re right about the sharing process, I think the question about HIPAA might come up if the note had more detail than necessary. It would just be in the patient’s best interest to ensure the note gives just enough detail for the employer to be get what they need without oversharing about anything they don’t want shared.

            1. ecnaseener*

              The question might come up, because people don’t understand what HIPAA does and doesn’t cover, but the answer to the question would remain “your doctor can disclose whatever info you want to you, and you can disclose whatever info you want to your employer.” I certainly agree it’s in the patient’s best interest to limit those disclosures to necessary information, but it’s still not a HIPAA issue. The amount of information requested by the employer could be an ADA issue, but that’s entirely separate.

  31. A Book about Metals*

    I realize this isn’t the point of the letter but why do companies require a doctor’s note for missing just a day or two from work? It’s so infantilizing, plus there are many occasions where you may be sick enough to not work but not enough to see a doctor.

    1. Wembem*

      I don’t know about the US, but in the UK it would be literally illegal for them to ask.

    2. CityMouse*

      It’s also a waste of the doctor’s time, as most couple day illnesses are just viruses that make you feel terrible but don’t require a doctor’s care.

      1. Tea Rocket*

        Exactly—there’s a level of illness that merits time off work, but which does not require seeing a doctor. Most doctors don’t even want you to come in until you’ve been ill for a few days without any improvement, are in a very bad state (where hospitalization is conceivably on the table), or unless you have an underlying condition that requires close monitoring.

        Requiring a note for a bug that the person’s immune system will fight off is a waste of everyone’s time and forces the patient to drag themselves out of bed to sit in a waiting room, potentially spreading the illness even further.

      2. londonedit*

        Yep, this is why we can self-certify for up to 7 calendar days here in the UK. No need to go to the doctor if you’ve got a cold or the flu or a stomach upset (I’m sure doctors would prefer you didn’t go to see them in those situations anyway!) You only need a doctor’s note if you’re off for more than that (and even then you don’t get a ‘sick note’ anymore, you get a ‘fit note’, which says whether you’re fit to work, or whether you may be fit to work with some accommodations (like reduced workload or adjusted hours or whatever).

    3. metadata minion*

      Seriously! I could hypothetically go to a doctor for a migraine, but a) this will directly make the situation worse since now I’ll be in bright noisy places, b) there’s not really anything the doctor can do given that my pain isn’t usually bad enough to warrant prescribing anything fancy, and c) they can’t actually even *diagnose* the migraine other than by believing me when I describe my symptoms. (Well, I assume they could with a CT scan or something, but that would be an impressively silly waste of resources.)

    4. RosiePosie*

      Totally agree. My job only requires a doctor’s note for absences of three days or more. It makes it so much easier to say “hey, I’m feeling under the weather and can’t come in today” without needing to find an urgent care clinic to confirm I had a cold.

    5. That Crazy Cat Lady*

      Yep, I hate it too. I caught strep throat last Christmas and used 2 days of my sick leave (which I have plenty of because I hardly ever take time off). I still had to bring in a doctor’s note.

      It makes me feel so crappy and reminds me of when I had to bring doctor’s notes to my teacher after missing a day of school. I’m an adult now, plus my fever is at 105 and my voice is almost completely gone. Can’t you just believe me when I say I’m sick and need a couple days to recover? Ugh.

    6. umami*

      I think often the confusion is when policies say an employer ‘may’ request a doctor’s note for missing more than 3 days, which doesn’t mean it’s a requirement to get a doctor’s note. But a lot of bosses think they HAVE to have a note that says the employee is well enough to return to work. I have counseled managers and even sick employees on this because they thought it was a requirement and that they needed the note for the employee to come back to work.

    7. Swix*

      It also encourages people to go to the doctor’s while contagious, when they otherwise wouldn’t have. Which isn’t what you want when you have other patients with cancer or chronic illnesses also visiting.

      1. I Have RBF*

        Of course, universal masking while in health care facilities would reduce this issue immensely. Seriously, even if all I had was a broken finger that I needed set, I would mask in an urgent care or ER setting, because other people with potentially contagious illnesses come there to get treatment.

    8. Observer*

      why do companies require a doctor’s note for missing just a day or two from work?

      That’s an *excellent* question. And it’s such a big deal that there are localities that have made this illegal. No, you cannot require a doctor’s note for a single days of sick leave, even if it happens on Monday or Friday (ie because OF COURSE everyone who ever gets “sick” on those days is just trying to get a long weekend/sarc)

    9. Lenora Rose*

      We still seem to require it for anything that’s more than 3 days, which I still think is silly, but better than requiring it for any illness.

      (I almost ran afoul of that for my last common illness, but because it came in 2 waves, I’d masked up and come in for one day right in the middle when I thought I was feeling up to it, before crashing again the next day.)

    11. TiffIf*

      I’m in the US and I have never been required to have a doctor’s note for needing a day or two off. The requirement is generally one of the symptoms on the sliding scale of how bad your manager/employer is.

    12. Joana*

      I experienced the unfairness of this firsthand. I have chronic acid reflux and had an awful attack of it on a Saturday morning I was supposed to work. Even if I was feeling better later, I work fast food so needed to wait at least 24 hours from the last time I vomited to go back to work. There’s really nothing to do about these episodes other than wait them out. They’re not bad enough that I end up dehydrated or anything. But they still made me get a note, and because it was the weekend, the local walk-in clinic was closed and I had to go to the ER.

      Luckily with covid my work dropped that stupid practice and only asks for notes if you’re going to miss more than like, two days for the same condition. To be fair (not really) that is far from the only way retail and service workers are infantilized and made to feel like they’re still children in school.

    13. Lyudie*

      My company requires us to use short term disability for sick leave over three days. Completely ridiculous.

    14. Allonge*

      In general a good question, but e.g where I work you can miss 13 days / year self-certifying, so without a doctor’s note.

      Day 14 and onwards, you need a doctor’s note or it comes out of your PTO. So while there is a reasonable number of days you don’t need it for, it’s not wildly out of imagination that you get to the point where you do.

  32. Wembem*

    #4 Keep in mind that one thing you could do is just be pleasant to them if you ever meet them at work gatherings or such. The best way to show gratitude for a good person is to reflect it. But don’t go out of your way otherwise.

  33. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

    Depending on company culture (and size of the team), OP4 could make brownies, or a small treat for an all-hands team meeting. My great-great grandboss’s wife made cookies for every all hands (over 200 people!). She had been making them for his teams since he was a grandboss in other parts of the org, steadily increasing the amount of cookies as he became more important. It was always fun to pass around the cookie basket in the auditorium and little things like that help morale, even when its already high.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Noooooo, don’t make cookies for your husband’s team. That wouldn’t get the message across and it has weirdly sexist overtones. Would you advise a man to make brownies for his wife’s team?

        1. metadata minion*

          Because it’s weird and people shouldn’t be expected to be involved at all in their spouses’ jobs outside of very specific high-level positions (and even then it annoys me). Bringing in some cookies because your spouse is on a baking kick is one thing, but nobody should have to make stuff *for* their partner’s workplace.

      2. Acronyms Are Life (AAL)*

        Honestly, yes. I guess I’m just spoiled because the culture of the office I’m in, a lot of the guys bake and bring in stuff for team meetings. And they bake things for their wives offices because they do talk about how their wives co-workers specifically request certain items. Like one guy make these amazing raspberry jam cookies that I could only dream of figuring out how to make.

        This to me a is low stakes way that OP can be involved in their husband’s work and get him literal and figurative brownie points when it comes to his coworkers (again, depends on culture, but my team, 100% all in on liking the person with the food).

        Also, tbh, we don’t know if OP is male or female, just because they said husband, doesn’t automatically mean OP is a woman.

    3. umami*

      Yeah, no. I’m never a fan of a woman providing treats for either their own workplace or their spouse’s. Why do people always assume women are bakers?? And that they want to bake for their husband’s coworkers?? Just … Ugh.

    4. A Book about Metals*

      I agree that in certain orgs or teams this could work – say a tight knit group that has worked together for years where everyone already knows each other and have met spouses etc

      But I would definitely not recommend it in this example

    5. Chocoholic*

      OP4, I wonder if the company has a holiday party where you would be talking with the supervisor in a more casual setting, and if it came up organically in the conversation, you could just say how much he enjoys working there, its a great culture, etc.

  34. Audrey Puffins*

    Elizabeth needs to suck it up, frankly. I’m not at my best first thing in the morning, and my co-workers are aware of this and don’t mind waiting until I’ve had my morning cup of tea before we start talking about full-on work stuff. The flip side of this is I know that if they do start a full-on work conversation first thing in the morning, they are doing so because it can’t wait and therefore I just have to get over myself and deal with it when it does happen.

  35. JSPA*

    LW3: “Hi! lovely day, isn’t it? I know you don’t like a broadside of info when you walk in the door, so check your email before you start digging in. There have been some last minute changes, and I’ve helped where I could.” Chances are she’s not averse to some modifications, she just takes a while to get up to full speed, where she can take in a verbal info dump.

    1. Lester*

      Finally, actual advice instead of 1984 Two Minutes Hate.

      Your script and insight are perfect, and I hope LW3 adopts both pieces.

    2. Hroethvitnir*

      This is not an office job. “Check your emails when you are ready” is not how it works.

      You start work, you are briefed on your patients, which is *important*, then you care for your patients as appropriate based on the information provided. Elizabeth needs to get herself together.

      If you can’t deal with a constantly changing environment that you must be able to respond to, direct care is not for you.

      It’s extra funny to me because my most recent procedure had a scheduling/staffing mess at check in. As someone with experience in patient care, I was very impressed by how well everyone was dealing with juggling patients and rooms. No one has time to baby one coworker.

  36. Nightengale*

    I’m an autistic health care provider who hates change. Hates it. Change in health care settings is often unavoidable. The best you can do is communicate it as early as possible.

    This is how come I can’t cope with a meeting that was cancelled 3 weeks ago but no one told me. . . but cope just fine with a staff member calling out sick or an actual patient emergency.

    In this case, it doesn’t sound like “letting them figure it out” as the shift progressed would have been feasible and may have compromised care. Would communicating a change in writing to this person be feasible in the future? Direct the person to a whiteboard or put in on a post-it (Room assignment change since A is out – B has 1-3 and 8, you have 4-6 and I’ll pick up 7)

  37. Iusemymiddlename*

    #5 – I work for a large retail company, and their leave of absence requests are handled through a third party. This third party is notorious for requiring more information and denying leaves because paperwork is not filled out to their satisfaction. If they deny the leave, the employee’s job is usually in jeopardy. So please understand if you have an employee requesting additional information. May not be right, but I’m not sure the average employee can do anything about it.

    1. ScruffyInternHerder*

      To me it seems there are parallels between #1 and #5 – even when an employer is completely in the wrong, sometimes you can’t do a thing about it if you want to retain employment (and in the USA, this often also means – keep your medical insurance/care availability). And it sucks.

    2. OldHat*

      LW3 was timely with LW5 is in the health care providers role is to treat the patient and not manage the patient’s life and the affect of an illness on their daily lives. It sucks for patients, but employers do this because enough doctors office have accommodated these requests for additional info or haven’t pushed back.

      It might also be a problem for the provider if they do accommodate requests beyond what the LW outlined. Granting exceptions because of push back, makes an impression on the LW’s ability to follow processes and could jeopardize their job or have negative effects in the case of audits.

  38. Tea Rocket*

    LW3: I don’t think the LW did anything wrong and shouldn’t take Elizabeth’s reaction personally. It sounds to me like there’s something going on behind the scenes with Elizabeth and her attitude towards work that likely has nothing to do with the LW.

    For the scenarios like the one the LW described, I’d keep providing information to her that might be useful, but in a way that doesn’t necessitate a reply: “Just so you know, in the A – F list of things to do, I’ve already taken care of B, C, and E,” and then if she responds she can’t talk about work, you can say something neutral like, “No worries—I don’t think there’s anything further to discuss anyway.” It’s trickier for stuff that does require a discussion for coordination purposes, but keeping in mind that her reaction is almost certainly not about the LW might help them weather whatever negative response Elizabeth gives.

  39. Someone Online*

    LW #1 – The next time you get a chance, tell your coworker to keep notes on what is happening. What was said, who was there, the date and the time. A log will 1) help protect her; 2) build a case against the manager; 3) perhaps give her confidence to move forward when she has evidence that she is not overreacting.

  40. OCE*

    LW #1

    Does your employer have EAP services that you can refer your co-worker to use? It sounds like your co-worker needs to talk to a therapist since she said she “needed to tell someone.” Regardless of whether you are her manager or co-worker, you are not a therapist and she shouldn’t be approaching you like you are one (though it’s likely the trauma and she’s not thinking straight).

  41. WantonSeedStitch*

    LW #1: if you ARE a manager and obliged to report this information, I would give your coworker a heads up so it doesn’t seem like you’re doing it behind her back. I’d say something like, “I wasn’t aware of this when you told me about what Fergus did, but as a manager, I’m obliged to report harassment like that. I wanted to tell you before I did it so it doesn’t take you by surprise.”

  42. Lurker*

    #5 my work requires staff to write a reason why they took sick time on PTO slips, I have had to push back that they are violating the law by insisting on having this information.

  43. roann*

    Ooh, I’ll have to try “I can’t handle talking about work this early in the day” in my weekly dept. meeting!

  44. A Book about Metals*

    On #2 I think you are totally fine! It’s normal to talk about a loved one like that after they’ve passed away, and they seem to really like you already!

    Plus you are still half Narnian – depending on the regulations of the particular real country, you could always look into dual citizenship

  45. Medium Sized Manager*

    LW2, my dad passed away in 2011, and I still refer to him in the present sense on occasion. In my family (and a lot of Jewish families and I am sure other cultures), sharing stories and talking about them is how we honor their memory, so it’s really easy to have a language slip like that. I wouldn’t beat yourself up about it because it is so incredibly common!

    I’m sorry for your loss – I hope working with his fellow Narnians brings you some comfort and that his memory is a blessing.

  46. Somehow I Manage*

    OP3 – You’re not being at all unreasonable to talk to someone about work while at work. Also, it doesn’t seem like you or your boss jumped in and bombarded Elizabeth with a task list as she was walking in and hadn’t even made it to her desk yet. She joined in a conversation. At the right time, boss provided time-sensitive and important information. You gave additional info that made her day easier, given the circumstances. And she got upset. If she didn’t to face the potential for work conversation before she was ready, she should have gone to her desk and not engaged with anyone first. If you need time to ready yourself for WORK, then you need to find a way to do that before work is supposed to begin. Maybe that means arriving 15 minutes early. Maybe that means sitting in your car for 5 minutes longer. At the very least, that probably means not directly jumping into any conversation with any coworkers before you’re ready because there’s a greater than 0% chance that someone will mention work stuff.

  47. mango chiffon*

    I feel like if you’re in medical care and can’t handle last minute changes in the morning, you’re in the wrong field, no?

    1. bamcheeks*

      I think there’s two things here— “not until after I’ve had my coffee” is a perfectly legit expectation in many fields but typically NOT direct patient care; and getting arsey with your colleagues because they didn’t respect that is unacceptable anywhere.

      1. umami*

        Honestly, this kind of bugs me. I had a direct report who always made this comment, somewhat jokingly, and I finally pulled her aside to say that as a leader, it’s not a good look to be joking about coming to work not ready to deal with the work day and basically signaling to your staff that they can’t approach you too early in the work day. I get that it’s a common refrain, but I do find it problematic for those reasons.

        1. bamcheeks*

          Hmm, let me rephrase that. I think there are lots of jobs where it’s perfectly legitimate to have boundaries around your time and not be open to interruptions. “Not until after I’ve had my coffee” is a flippant way of doing it, but “I use the first hour of the day to catch up on email / deep-focussed work / in a morning briefing with leadership, but I’m available after that” would be reasonable in many roles. I just don’t think direct patient care is one of them!

          1. Allonge*

            I would say even this is limited.

            If you are in a meeting, sure, you are not available.

            And everyone can have a preference for not being interrupted at certain times – I for sure pointedly said ‘can I take my coat off first?’ when I came in to the office and was more or less ambushed by a brainstorming session on something not even a little urgent. But this is a preference and has its limits. Just as ‘deep focus’ blocks on a calendar will have no use if your manager needs to talk to you about something urgent.

            But the ‘not before my coffee’ phrasing implies even more to me – that the person is not available for work at all, or only reluctantly, before they decide it’s late enough in the day for them. This is inadvisable for most jobs I would say!

          2. umami*

            Oh, agreed! It’s the ‘hehe, not before my coffee’ stuff that triggers me! But your sentiment I tend to agree with, and where it could/could not be appropriate.

      2. Observer*

        “not until after I’ve had my coffee” is a perfectly legit expectation in many fields

        Not really. Sure, you can get away with it in some fields, but in most functional workplaces if you “storm away” when someone is trying to fill you in on issues that actually affect you because you have not had your morning coffee yet, it’s not going to be great for you. You might not get into trouble, but for the most part it is going to have a negative effect on how people view you.

        getting arsey with your colleagues because they didn’t respect that is unacceptable anywhere

        100% Even if they are giving you information that is not that important.

        1. I Have RBF*

          I kind of agree here. Yes, I will tell people “hang on, I’m still logging in and reviewing the day’s email while I work on my coffee.” But if their thing is urgent? I will put off the email and log in where I need to be while joining the emergency Zoom meeting. Hell, some days I have to log in a little bit early because I have a meeting first thing, and I hate being late.

          I would want to be told of changes ASAP, and what had already been done. Because that’s part of work, and my shift has started, therefore I am there to work.

          Elizabeth is being precious.

  48. Frosty*

    LW#4 – maybe there is something you could do for the office/workgroup. It’s not the “wife’s responsibility” to bake cookies but maybe there is something like that the two of you could make/buy that your husband could bring as a “thank you” to the group in general.

    It doesn’t have to be sweets (or food) necessarily, but I work in a multi-cultural area and it’s just as common for people to bring in a bag of hot samosas or spring rolls to give out, as it is to get cookies!

    You’d have to see what is appropriate for that particular work culture, but where I am, people bring in stuff like that semi-regularly and it’s always welcome.

    That would give you an avenue to express your gratitude that your husband finally has a job that he enjoys, but without undermining him or seeming a bit “off”.

  49. dude, who moved my cheese?*

    LW1- Assuming you’re not a manager and don’t have a legal obligation to report- please consider that your coworker told you this because you feel like a safe person, and disregarding her wishes to do what you think is best about her situation will make you an unsafe person and will actively harm her.

    1. HonorBox*

      This is a terrific point. As a safe person, you can be in her corner and perhaps give her the support she needs at the time she’s ready to make a report. She needs your support now, and taking this information and running with it yourself will cause that wall to fall.

  50. Salty Caramel*

    I copied this from the Department of Labor’s Site:

    The employer may require an employee to obtain a certification that includes the following information:

    –Contact information for the certifying health care provider,
    –The date the serious health condition began and how long it will last,
    –Appropriate medical facts about the condition such as symptoms, hospitalization, or doctor’s visits,
    –For leave for the employee’s own serious health condition, information showing that the employee cannot perform the essential functions of the job,
    –For leave to care for a family member, a statement establishing the family member needs care, and an estimate of when and how long the leave is needed, or
    –For leave that needs to be taken in short blocks of time, an estimate of how much time will be needed for each absence, how often absences may occur, and information establishing the medical necessity for taking such intermittent leave.

    The certification should not contain information about genetic tests, genetic services, or evidence of disease among the employee’s family members. The health care provider may, but is not required to, provide a diagnosis.
    —

    This is an awful lot. I don’t think my employer requires this much.

    1. umami*

      This goes to my comment above, which is the word ‘may’. Often, that word gets overlooked, and people think it’s truly required.

    2. Amber Rose*

      It seems like a lot but what it mostly boils down to is: employers need to know if a person can safely do their job in consideration of their health.

      If someone is off for the flu or whatever I don’t need to know much beyond that a doctor told them to recover at home for a few days. But if a person is going to return to work with limitations, I do need to know what those limitations are and how long they’re expected to last, because it’s my obligation and responsibility to not assign work tasks that will aggravate or worsen an existing health condition. Which I can’t do without some basic knowledge around that condition.

      That’s why the word “may” is there, because in some situations I don’t need to know much and in some situations I do. But some people in my position (or related) are nosy and want all the info all the time.

  51. ThisIsNotADuplicateComment*

    LW4 – While you shouldn’t contact your husband’s boss there’s no reason you can’t help him write up a nice card for her (only signed by him though) saying how awesome of a boss she is and how much he enjoys working with her. He can give it to her around his one-year anniversary or New Year’s.

    1. umami*

      I like this – I’ve always appreciated getting thank you cards from staff, even bosses appreciate affirmation!

  52. CzechMate*

    LW 5 – I’m an admin at a university working with international students. For immigration reasons, we can ONLY permit a student to take a medical leave of absence if they provide a medical note with VERY specific info. I think it’s dumb, but it’s a US federal policy. I often find myself calling hospitals and talking to 15 different people (who often push back and say, “I don’t have to give them this,” and I have to say, “Um if you don’t they are going to have to take a 24 hour flight back to Malaysia”) until I finally get something that is permissible to allow the kid to drop some classes.

    I know it’s extra time, and employers/HR offices SHOULD consider asking for the bare minimum necessary, but I would urge you to consider that when this happens, the patient is the one who gets stuck in the middle and doesn’t get any benefit. If an NP doesn’t want to give the kid a letter that meets our requirements, I can’t just roll with it–I need to make them go back to the hospital or I need to call myself to beg for something more specific. As much as possible, I would respectfully suggest you provide exactly what the patient asks for.

    1. LW5*

      To be clear, I do. The only times I actually refuse are if (a) it’s ridiculous and the patient and I both know it (and even then I’ll usually write something that addresses this immediate concern, but with an agreement in writing that they know this isn’t happening again without some conditions being met), or (b) if it’s information that should definitely come from some other provider (like very specific activity restrictions and they’re also seeing ortho about this situation, who will be in a better position to recommend these specifics).

      I always try to be collaborative about what I’m including, and if at all possible I’ll write the letter with the patient still in the room so we both agree on what’s going in it. I appreciate all the suggestions here for options when the patient and I agree their employers are asking for more than is necessary / appropriate.

  53. umami*

    This goes to my comment above, which is the word ‘may’. Often, that word gets overlooked, and people think it’s truly required.

  54. Ann Onymous*

    LW 1: Maybe you already did this, but please make sure your coworker knows that your employer has a legal obligation to stop harassment and to stop any retaliation that occurs if they report. If a coworker told me about something like this, I’d respect their decision to report or not but I’d want to make sure they had the info above when they made that decision.

  55. Jennifer Strange*

    LW2 – You’re overthinking this! If I found out that someone’s family member who I had thought was still alive was actually deceased I wouldn’t think of that person as a sociopath or in any negative light, I would just assume I had misread the situation and would offer my sympathies. It sounds like your dad passed away five months ago, and that’s still a pretty short amount of time to make an adjustment (especially if you met this person only one month after it happened!) Please give yourself some grace.

    LW4 – I’m in a similar situation, so I get the urge, but I agree with Alison that you run the risk of patronizing your husband with a note. That said, if you ever meet his boss I don’t think it would be out of line to let her know you’ve heard wonderful things about her and that you’re happy to meet her.

  56. Anon21*

    I would say that if LW4 crosses path with the partner’s boss at an occasion like an office holiday dinner or the like, they could probably say something nice to the partner’s boss without it being overstepping, framed around what the partner has said about working on this team. But reaching out proactively would be a bit off.

    1. RagingADHD*

      Yes, I was going to say the same thing. If you meet in person, it would be appropriate and very nice to say how highly your husband speaks of working with her, and what a difference it has made to him to be part of a positive team, etc.

  57. Alicent*

    #1 I once reported a colleague and my boss for sexual harassment with the main victim. Unfortunately the way it worked out was bullying from both of them and the other victim freezing me out and lying to our boss about things to get the heat off of them. Reporting harassment doesn’t always end well for the accuser and I ended up transferring locations due to the serious issues it caused. Please tread lightly.

  58. MicroManagered*

    and I did (and still sometimes do!) habitually refer to him in the present tense, and it simply didn’t occur to me until after the meeting. I realize that sounds sociopathic, but I just … forgot.

    OP2 this is something I would do, not because I’m a sociopath, but because I have late-diagnosed ADHD so I have all kinds of little quirks that I’m just now figuring out are super-normal for the condition I have. I’m not diagnosing YOU — just saying where it comes from, for me.

    Anyway, I would just say some version of Alison’s script the next time it comes up. When it gets awkward, I would just take the blame. “I’m so sorry! I slip and refer to him in present-tense sometimes.” Again, not sociopathic… people will understand :)

    Sorry for your loss!

  59. jayellekay*

    LW2, I switched jobs a couple of years after my mom died, so while everyone in my old office knew (I got the news at work), it didn’t exactly come up naturally with my new coworkers. I had told a story about my mom making a joke when I was younger that led to my coworker saying “[commentor], if I ever meet your mom, I’m not going to be able to keep a straight face.” My response was “If you ever meet my mom, something wild will be happening because she passed in 2018.” We still laugh about it to this day. Losing a family member is strange and surreal and we talk about them in different tenses all the time. Nothing sociopathic about it <3

  60. Coffeemate is searching the globe*

    Regarding #1, there was another letter recently from a manager about an employee who didn’t want to file a complaint but the boss asked if they should anyway, and the answer included this:

    “In fact, in some cases (like discrimination or sexual harassment), the company is legally obligated to act even if the person doesn’t want you to.”

    I know there’s a difference between a boss and another employee in terms of their responsibility, but then what does “the company is legally obligated to act” mean? (obv not a lawyer)

    1. Observer*

      then what does “the company is legally obligated to act” mean?

      It means that if the company knows or should know they need to act. Like if someone does things in view of a manager. Or someone comes to a manager with an issue. Because in that case, even if the manager does not have the direct authority to stop the harasser, they have an obligation to bring it to whoever does have that authority.

      Higher up in the thread someone mentioned the possibility that IT might see if the LW sent themselves an email about this problem. And I pointed out that if IT *did* see it and let management know, that would absolutely trigger that obligation on the part of the company.

  61. ArtK*

    #5 Unless the employee has *specifically* authorized the nurse practitioner to release that information to the employer, doing so would be a HIPAA violation. The employer can ask all they want (that’s not a violation), but as the great philosopher said “you can’t always get what you want.”

  62. EventPlannerGal aka LW2*

    Commenting as an LW for once: thank you all (and especially thank you Alison!) for your advice and kind words – I’ve definitely been overthinking this and will try to clear this up the next time I have an opportunity to. My contact really is lovely and I’m sure he will understand!

    (And thank you all also for the reassurance that I’m not a sociopath, lol – I’m not a very emotionally expressive person and I think I just worry about appearing like I don’t care or could somehow have forgotten about my dad, who I love very much and was/is tremedously influential on my life. Again, overthinking!)

  63. JMU*

    LW#1: do not report it yourself, but document (see other comments), and push your colleague _very_ hard to report it.

    The question is not “is there a downside to reporting it?”. The answer to that is obviously yes, and your colleague knows it. The real question is “is the downside of reporting it _larger_ than the downside of not reporting it?”

    The answer to that, in my experience, is no. As a point of reference, I am a former workplace representative (I _legally could not_ report even if I wanted to). I have not handled any serious case of sexual harassment (the only one I heard of was promptly handled by HR before it escalated beyond sexist comments), but I handled a dozen or so serious cases of workplace harassment where HR was actively stonewalling.

    The fact pattern is always the same. The victim does not want to raise a fuss at first. The behavior continues and escalates. When a breaking point is reached, HR pretends to discover the whole thing, and delays resolution long enough (to make a proper inquiry, you see) that the victim leaves of their own accord.

    The point of reporting is not only to make HR (or top management) act. If they do, great. If they do not, the breaking point is reached at a lower threshold of pain, and with a better hand in case of litigation. (Only two people followed my advice to report early. Both left with significantly better compensation and less psychic damage than the others.) (I quit the company because it was taking a toll on my mental health; not only did I acquire ample grounds to not trust HR or top management, I also hated seeing different people do the same mistakes over and over again and suffering dearly.)

    Now, all of the people I advised could afford to be unemployed for a few months and were reasonably likely to find another job. If your colleague is in a different position, the advice above may not apply.

  64. DisgruntledPelican*

    OP #2 – it sounds like your dad’s death is quite recent (five months ago, if I read the letter correctly). Honestly, I probably wouldn’t even try to clear up the confusion. I would just say “actually, he recently passed” the next time they mention him and leave it at that.

  65. Just Another Anonymoose*

    #5:
    I’m overseas in a country that also has laws about confidentiality.
    Employees in the company that were honest (or foolish) enough to mention their diagnosis faced a risk of being pushed out.

  66. Blondesense*

    Regarding #5
    I think it’s important to understand there are two separate “legal” issues in this situation.
    First, what the provider can legally release.
    Second, what the employer can legally ask for.
    These are two very different issues.
    I think there is confusion here.

Comments are closed.