making 2 job candidates have dinner together, manager eavesdrops on conversations, and more

by Alison Green on March 7, 2025

It’s four answers to four questions. Here we go…

1. CEO is making two finalist candidates have dinner with him at the same time

Wondering if you can tell me if this situation is as crazy as I think it is. My company is hiring for an executive level role for an office we are standing up in a new state. This role will report to our CEO and it’s important we get the right person in place. We’ve narrowed it down to two final candidates, they have interviewed with other C-suite employees, and the feedback is similar on both candidates (both would likely be great in the role). Our CEO wants to take them both to dinner … at same time, together.

After I pushed back on this idea, the CEO brought it up in a larger team meeting, and every person agreed this wasn’t a good idea. But our CEO is convinced this is the way to go. His reasoning is a little competition would be good for them and help him make the final decision.

Beyond being unprofessional, I think this would make the candidates question our culture and if they even want the role. I feel like this is a disaster in the making. Is there a scenario when taking two candidates to the same business dinner would be a good idea?

No, this is a terrible idea! Any decent candidate is going to wonder if your management culture pits people against each other in dysfunctional ways, and it’s going to be an awkward position for both of them. Hiring isn’t about candidates going head to head with each other at the same dinner table; it’s about the employer assessing candidates against their own set of metrics and deciding who’s the strongest match.

A lot of excellent candidates would be turned off by this and decline. That said, if they’d be taking a job with a CEO who thinks “a little competition is good for them,” it’s probably better that they find that out now.

2. My manager eavesdrops on conversations

My manager has a habit of eavesdropping: she will lurk around a corner listening to a conversation for a couple of minutes then appear, having taken a side. I find this really creepy.

Recently she took it to a whole new level. A supervisor and I were having a somewhat heated discussion about something in a room where it’s quite hard to eavesdrop (thick doors). My manager came into the room and walked over to a computer and started using it. Our discussion paused and I said something like, “Uh, do you want to be involved in this conversation, Mary-Jane?” and she said no, she was just there because someone had left a computer logged in, which is a security issue.

We stood there awkwardly as she fiddled with the computer (logging out takes two seconds), just the three of us in the room. Eventually the conversation continued and she continued to pretend she wasn’t listening. Later on I got written up for being disrespectful to the supervisor in that conversation.

There isn’t really a question here, but, your thoughts?

Well, your manager is an eavesdropper. I don’t know that it’s creepy, per se, but it’s weird — she’s your boss so she has the authority to just involve herself if she wants to, rather than pretending that she’s not listening until she’s suddenly responding.

There might be some circumstances where you can sort of call it out, by saying, “Mary-Jane, you look like you’re paying attention — do you want to give input?” In some situations, if you have a ton of capital (and I mean a really significant amount) and want to use some of it, then after she’s popped up having clearly been lurking around the corner, you could say, “It always throws me off to realize someone has been listening where we can’t see them! I would rather you just join us straight away in the future.” (But you need to be deeply valued and your job rock solid, for that to even approach being a good idea, and even then it’s probably not worth it unless you’re about to lose your mind over this.)

Beyond that, all you can really do is be aware that she does this, so if you ever don’t want her to pop up in a conversation or opine on it later, pick your locations carefully.

But I’m curious what else she’s like as a manager, because my guess is that this isn’t the only way she’s weird about how she exercises authority.

To be clear, there are times as a manager where it’s useful and legitimate to listen into conversations that you’re not an active part of — like paying attention to how an employee talks to coworkers or explains a project on a client call. But it shouldn’t be a covert thing, where people assume they have privacy and really don’t, or where it makes people feel scrutinized or micromanaged or like they don’t have any autonomy. More here:

I can hear everything my staff says — should I pretend I don’t?

3. I’m panicking in my new job

I’m a marketer with 13+ years experience in my field. Throughout my career, I’ve established a reputation for having a strong work ethic, being an expert in my role, and being a smart, dependable teammate. I was at my most recent role for four years, and in the beginning it was great. I even received a departmental award for my work. About midway through my tenure there, I got a new boss who, after a few months, made my working environment really toxic. (She constantly switched up expectations and goals, had me constantly reexplain very basic parts of the job more than a year in, and would accuse me of doing things I never did.) Fast forward to just before Christmas this past year, I got fired for a situation that was largely out of my control.

I threw myself into the job search and was lucky enough to start a new role after two months of unemployment. It’s a fully remote job in the same field (marketing) but in a wildly different industry. It’s been 2.5 weeks and I feel completely overwhelmed. Everyone has been nice and said it’ll take a while to catch up and to reach out with any questions but I can’t get a read on my boss. She’s clearly very good at her job, but is also very busy, so there hasn’t been a ton of onboarding. I’m terrified of not meeting expectations or catching up quickly enough and being fired again.

Is this a normal feeling for any new job, or is this a reflection of my fit with this company? Also, is it bad if, at the six-month mark, I start job searching again if I still feel the same way I do today?

It’s a very normal feeling. If you’re still feeling this way in six months — or better yet, eight — then sure, start looking around, but two and a half weeks is nothing and it’s really common to be feeling this way, even for a job you will master in time.

It might help to think about specifically what’s making you feel unmoored. Can you make a list of questions that you’d feel more settled/secure if you knew the answers to? Are there people with similar roles who you can ask to coffee, say you’re feeling overwhelmed, and ask for help settling in? Also, if she hasn’t already covered this, try asking your boss what she’d like to see you accomplish in one month, three months, and six months, since knowing that might help you get your bearings. Last, is there one project you can pick to dive into, asking questions of colleagues as you go? Picking just one project when you’re overwhelmed in a new position can sometimes be a good way into the job and to learn as you go.

4. Questions to ask when interviewing for my own job

I have been doing my role on a temporary basis for 2.5 years. Soon I have to interview for it on a permanent basis. What kind of question can I ask which won’t sound like I don’t understand the role or the organization?

You can ask about what goals they have for the role over the next year (or next few years) and if there’s anything they want to see the person in the job approach differently than has been historically done. If there are known challenges or changes on the horizon (or ongoing), you can ask about how those will affect the job. Plus, think about anything else that might be on your mind — are there things you wish you knew about their vision for the role/strategy/etc.? If so, think about whether you can shape those into useful questions.

Related:
how to prepare for an internal interview

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{ 267 comments }

{ 267 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Daria grace*

    #4 you might also want to ask questions about things like the development planning and performance review process. At a previous job I had where I moved from temp to perm the performance review process was quite different and more intense for permanent staff than long term temps. Permanent staff were also expected to have written development goals whereas with temps it was just less formally discussed.

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  2. Viki*

    #4 When I had to write my cover letter for my new role (all promotions technically are you applying for a new role, but as the preferred candidate, you’re the only one considered), I just wrote my game plan for what the next year was going to be, and what I would be doing to hit those metrics.

    If you already know what your department goals are for the year, build on those.

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    1. MassMatt*

      This is pretty good advice.

      All I could think of was the courtroom scene in Bananas where Woody Allen cross-examines himself.

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      1. NonnyMouse*

        I hired someone back into a role which was temporarily cut due to budgets. She had been moved to another department, so it should have been an easy transfer.

        They asked me to call one of her references – of which I was one. I had a nice little chat with myself about hiring her back and then checked that box on the form.

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        3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          I had a similar experience as a candidate. Because of stuff in our collective agreement, I had to interview for a job I had been in for a while. My current manager was one of my references and I made a joke about him having a good conversation with himself.

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    2. Mockingjay*

      I came to say something similar. OP4, do what @Viki suggests – great idea.

      Also, tout your accomplishments. After 2.5 years, while your official employment status is “temp,” you have likely been doing the work of a permanent employee. Even coming in as a temp while things are in flux is an accomplishment: “brought in to assist Project Teapot due to [reason]. Caught up backlog of reporting for compliance and auditing within 3 months.” Don’t undersell what you’ve accomplished because of “temporary” status. Work is work.

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  3. rosacolleti*

    #3 I can’t imagine trying to onboard completely remotely. If they are a fully remote company, they would have to have someone who’s role is to integrate new people, I’d speak to them.

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    1. WoodswomanWrites*

      I came here to say this also. I was hired in my current role during the pandemic when the office was completely closed. The first time I met my manager in person was when we got together outdoors so she could give me a laptop. The first time I met most of my team was at an outdoor event a month and a half later, and some people I worked with I didn’t meet offline for a year.

      But despite that, I was actively mentored. My manager set things up so that a colleague in a comparable role was available to coach me, both formally through a weekly online meeting and informally as a go-to person for questions.

      I agree with rosacolleti here. See if there’s someone whose role it is to onboard new staff.

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      1. Thegreatprevaricator*

        Yeah I was the same – joined June 2020 and org was very by the book. I didn’t actually meet colleagues in person until a year later. There was a lot done to support both existing and joining colleagues.

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        1. Carol the happy*

          My daughter also started a fully remote job during the Great Plague. They kept it fully remote until late 2023, when they had a huge meet/greet around Labor Day. Since it was a catered potluck (bring a dish you’re proud of if you want to) there were a lot of tables and signage.

          That evening, I asked her how it had gone, she hesitated, then said, “This is gonna sound stupid. You know those movies where the receptionist or bartender is just a robotic torso on a track behind the counter?

          Well– I realized that I had never thought of them as having legs or feet!”

          We will never let her live that down.

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        2. theinone*

          Reminds me of when, halfway through my sophomore year of high school when we were going back to partial in person classes, I walked into my history class and the very first thing my teacher said was “wow, you’re shorter than I thought you’d be”. He’d guessed everyone else’s height about right, but I guess I just have a tall personality!

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    2. AlsoADHD*

      I’ve onboarded remotely a few times (two of the jobs had occasional offsites and some travel but they weren’t during the onboarding period or part of bringing on new staff) and also one of those jobs was post-pandemic in a period where one of my first projects was to improve an onboarding process for other staff! Good remote onboarding relies on good SOP and knowledge bases (frankly good onboarding in person does too, but many companies slack on this and let individual’s hold too much institutional knowledge—a risky gamble that makes the quality of onboarding way too reliant on individuals and variable within the company over time). Managers will always be essential to any part of a job experience, but companies should ideally not put all of onboarding on them. Even good onboarding can leave someone ill at ease in LW’s situation since the best remote onboarding leaves breathing space that I can imagine being uncomfortable if you were fired and unemployed by a toxic management change! (In that case, you may want more contact and reassurance naturally! I would after that!) The best onboarding is slow and deliberate, involves intentional introductions to key people, and ideally has touch points to get to know the company (in smaller companies, this might be more knowledge base than live events constantly just due to resourcing) as well as at least weekly touch base with your manager.

      Personally I’ve actually never had an organized onboarding in person. Some were awful, some it was just the circumstances (standing up a new site, I taught for awhile and that’s go-go-go; I’ve worked corporate in several different functions too). The worst was my first marketing job where I was nearly fired for wanting to do stuff. My manager gave me a book to read, I read it (I’m hyperlexic and read extremely fast), and then asked for more to do, and he called me a liar and made me go sit with nothing to do (this was before Smart phones and I had no computer there, plus I have adhd and doing nothing is torture to me — except in remote where I can chill at home). We really got into it, and I filed for accommodations and started relooking for jobs. He actually wasn’t a bad boss but he had no onboarding plan and was frustrated I wasn’t keen on waiting around or just listening to people do their jobs aimlessly (like I was in marketing and he wanted me to sit and listen to the payroll admin for a week; she wasn’t interested in having me there, she wasn’t telling me anything, I was just dumped around—later this helped me build an interest in improving onboarding programs which is in the scope of my work now lol). Most of my in person onboarding wasn’t that bad, but I’ve never had a truly bad remote experience (either sort of hybrid standing up a new office or fully remote in the last few).

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      1. Snow Globe*

        I just started a new, fully remote job in February, and the remote onboarding was great! The manager had set up a training plan, and she assigned various other team members to meet with me to cover X, Y, Z…topics in how we work. She had even set up a first day 2 hour meeting with someone from IT to make sure I had access to everything I was supposed to (I didn’t, but it got fixed quickly). It took about one and a half weeks to go through everything, about 2 meetings per day, the rest of the time I read through (well-written) policies and procedures and took some online training courses. And because all of my teammates assisted in the training, I had people to call as I had follow up questions once I started actually working.

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        1. Also-ADHD*

          I think remote drives orgs to be organized and intentional with onboarding, which is what makes onboarding good in any setting!

          But good onboarding remotely can be slow because you build in time for technical needs, etc. and absorption when you can (not always possible, depending, and various cadences work for different roles as you get higher up). I design onboarding still sometimes for my org (a distributed global org) and others (fractional consulting), and the key is intention.

          That said, LW is coming in from a really tough situation previously and good, slow onboarding can also feel ominous if you just came off a toxic manager. Good to check-in, especially on expectations to self-soothe sometimes!

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      2. Uranus Wars*

        I have been onboarded twice remotely, in the very early 2010s.

        One was fantastic- sent someone in for a week to train me, assigned me a mentor outside of my manager string, I could go on and on with the support I received and how easy it was. And this was before Zoom meetings, so all phone.

        The other was…awful. And they had this remote structure since the 80s. BUT this had more to do with my manager than the org. I know this because others who started with me had totally different experiences!

        It really does boil down to the org and the management. But I also agree with ehat you said downthread about it being hard to transition when you come from environment like OP. Two weeks is not a lot of time but can also feel like you’re not doing ANYTHING when the prior expectation is out of line with any kind of norms.

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    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’ve onboarded remotely multiple times, and onboarded other folks remotely multiple times, in the last ten years – it’s not actually that difficult, if the people running the onboarding are at all competent. My in-person onboarding have always been much more convoluted and fiddly.

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    4. RemoteOnboarding*

      I’ve onboarded remotely many times and it hasn’t been a substantively different process than onboarding onsite. The first week or so is a lot of reading interrupted by some HR and IT tasks regardless. There isn’t a lot of difference between asking people questions in person vs over slack/zoom/teams/whatever. Whether it’s a good or a bad process depends on the people involved, as do most work-related things.

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    5. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I have found it helpful to volunteer early on to work on the onboarding process, documenting what I learn for the benefit of the next people to be hired.

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    6. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Great point! Things being remote probably means a more difficult adjustment period to the new job. Especially if the manager is so unavailable.

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    7. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve done this for my last two jobs. It’s fine, if everyone is responsive. If they’re not, it can be a nightmare. Your IT should get things set up quickly so you have access. It’s tough to train when you can’t see the documents or databases you’ll be working with/in.

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    8. Momma Bear*

      A lot of people don’t know how to onboard someone remotely. I would ask for a one-on-one video meeting and go over the things that you need clarification for. Your boss might indeed be busy but that doesn’t mean you can’t get on her calendar. If your team has regular meetings, make sure you are on them. You might find out a lot of what you need to know just by getting hooked into the right discussions. Please do reach out, though. Let the manager know the gaps and where you need more information. I’ve been fully remote and it’s easy to get lost so don’t let them forget about you.

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  4. See Reeves*

    I preface this story with: academia is weird.

    My friend’s partner was on the market for tenure track academia position. And the university with which he was interviewing took the top three candidates out to dinner…together. One of the candidates asked , at dinner, what the school’s policy was for dating students! And the other candidates picked up and licked their plate clean at the end of the meal! My friend’s partner was feeling pretty confident they would get the job. They offered the job to the plate licker!

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    1. MK*

      Eh, I would consider it worse if they offered it to the person who wanted to date students. I think brilliant people with no social graces are relatively common in academia, or at least it’s not as big of a drawback as in other fields, if they are brilliant enough.

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      1. Bossy*

        I am always shocked at the leeway given to so-called brilliant people. If you’re that smart read a f’ing etiquette book.

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      1. BatManDan*

        In my ideal world, both candidates realize the dinner / company / CEO for the trainwreck that it is, and decline the dinner / job, leaving the CEO to start the search over.

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        1. Edwina*

          As I was reading this, I realized the OP didn’t say if the CEO was going to tell the candidates that the other candidate would also be at the dinner. I really hope he’s not planning to surprise them.

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          1. Zombeyonce*

            I wondered about this, too. A CEO who thinks this is a good idea is someone who seems likely to not tell them and let them realize when they arrive that it’s a competition dinner, not a regular interview.

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              1. Zephy*

                Both candidates arrive a few minutes apart at Chez Fancée, where the CEO is some kind of mid-20th-century bigshot with a standing nightly reservation. The maitre’ d seats them, then takes a call from the CEO(‘s secretary) letting them know he will be late. Adorably awkward banter ensues between the candidates – or maybe it’s funnier if each of them think the other is the CEO, until the maitre’ d comes back and says Monsieur is delayed, but in the meantime may we offer you a drink? and then we’re off to the races.

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          2. Raven Mistress*

            Oohh…my wicked little heart chortles at the thought of this!

            By the way, several years ago I saw a TV movie in which a well-off lowlife man kept two women around to cater to his…whims. He’d hoped that they’d be jealous of each other and fight over him, which they did for a while – until they realized that they really liked each other more than they liked him! Off they went together, leaving him to sputter and fuss, stunned at their lack of appreciation for his magnificent self.

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          1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

            My first thought: Ugh, dinner with strangers? No thanks!

            My second thought: If I adopted that attitude, I’d probably be so relaxed as to accidentally get the job.

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        4. Andrea Doria*

          “A lot of excellent candidates would be turned off by this and decline“

          Gimme a break. A rare opportunity for a CEO role and they’re going to opt out? Never, unless they’re already in the C-suite

          This assessment is coming from someone who has spent too long as a journalist and not at actual companies

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          2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

            Not a CEO role, but presumably something else at sea level.

            > This role will report to our CEO

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          3. Susannah*

            If someone invited me to dinner WITH another job finalist, I would find it so manipulative and unprofessional that yeah, I think I’d decline.
            It would be AWFUL to work somewhere where the CEO thought it was a good idea for two job candidates engage in some Hunger Games battle for the job. Working there would be worse than the interview process.

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            1. Reluctant Mezzo*

              There was an episode of GOTHAM where Jada Pinkett had two candidates for a job physically fight each other (the economy was so bad they did so).

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          4. Not Tom, Just Petty*

            The excellent candidates with have other options or be confident/content enough about their current positions that they don’t want to play Hunger Games type BS. This is the level where candidates are wooed by the potential company, not challenged to earn the privilege of candidacy.

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        5. Lenora Rose*

          Or they have a great discussion with each other and collaborate to gang up on the boss trying to make them compete instead.

          (Which would of course lead to exactly the same end of declining the job but might lead to a useful work network contact.)

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    3. Seal*

      I also work in academia and have served on a number of search committees, so this whole scenario made me laugh out loud! Dinner with a single candidate can be awkward, but a group dinner with all of the finalists takes it to a whole new level. Good to know that there are institutions out there that don’t consider plate-licking a deal breaker, I guess.

      Academia really IS weird.

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      1. A mathematician*

        So I am an academic, and I’m not in the USA, but when I was job hunting for my current job a few years ago, two out of three jobs that invited me for interview did this – and the one that didn’t was the one that was clearly trying to save money because they wanted me to fly in, so the interviews, and fly home in one day.

        It was actually quite nice to do – it wasn’t just the head of the department and the finalists, there was someone else from the department as well, and it was fairly casual. It was a chance to ask questions about the university, and living in that city (in both cases most of not all of the finalists were from other cities of not other countries) – more candidates assessing the university than the search committee assessing us, though no doubt questions about dating students would have been judged! And the other finalists were people I might want to work with at some point, and had some good questions I hadn’t thought of. And as it turned out, for my current job the head of department really liked all three finalists and found the funding to offer us all a job (and we all accepted), so as it turned out they were my future colleagues not my competitors!

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    4. KeinName*

      Makes me wonder what your friend‘s partner did at dinner ;-)
      Or maybe they‘re a department of food enthusiasts and the plate licker fit right in. These dinners are also meant to assess social (as in leadership, team work) skills I guess. Successfully, on the part of the candidate who implied they were up for dating students. Probably licking your plate doesn’t mean you can’t effectively lead a team or be supportive of younger talent.

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      2. Phony Genius*

        We used to joke that some of our less-popular professors were reptilians. This story only reinforces the possibility.

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    5. LaminarFlow*

      LOL! I came to the comments to say that the group dinner felt like a group date on the Bachelor/Bachelorette, with the top contestants vying for the win. But, I like the plot twist of the plate licking resulting in the W!

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    7. fallingleavesofnovember*

      Part of the selection process I went through for a major graduate scholarship involved a dinner with all the candidates and the selection committee members…they said it wasn’t part of the interview, but of course they were observing how well we interacted with each other (and there were definitely a lot of those big dinner socializing and schmoozing events if you received the scholarship, so I guess it made sense)

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      1. MigraineMonth*

        My dad’s college department started specifying that yes, the dinner absolutely was part of the interview because they were interviewing a lot of post-docs from Japan who thought nomikai culture applied as soon as the wine came out at dinner. So the department had been having great full-day interviews with polite, professional and reserved candidates, who would go to dinner and get completely shit-faced.

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    8. Dr. Rebecca*

      I’m going to guess, based on over a decade in academia, that the plate licker was either well connected, or had a “more valuable” sub-specialty in their discipline. I once half-joked that every department in my discipline has a person of my sub-specialty, so I’d have to wait for someone to retire or die. I got very, very lucky, and found a person who chose a secret, almost un-academic third option: they’re happy to share. It’s like the clouds parted and the sun shone on me. Best of luck to your friend’s partner.

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      1. Lauren*

        I had a professor in undergrad that was a recent hire who only spoke a few words of English. He would write some numbers and dashes on the board, circle them, and then say “This probability”.

        Yeah, he was definitely hired for his research. Academia does not care about anything else .

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        1. Ally McBeal*

          My Econ 101 TA in college had a decent grasp of English, but his accent was so heavy that he sounded like Jar Jar Binks and was barely intelligible. It’s not his fault I didn’t do well in that class (no one told me not to take difficult classes in my first semester, and no one told me the lead professor for the class was the most difficult Econ prof at the university) but he definitely wasn’t much help either. I’m sure he was excellent at research and is doing very well for himself in private industry now.

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          1. Lauren*

            I had a Physics professor, who also happened to be the department chair, who spoke English with a heavy accent, and that was a tough year. It was also especially tough when he’d forget a word in English and then start talking in his native language to the one student in the class who spoke that language. He’d eventually realize what he was doing, laugh, and carry on like nothing had happened.

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    10. I should really pick a name*

      If the plate-licker was otherwise the better candidate, I’d talk to them about it, and based on that conversation, would make my hiring decision.

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    11. LifebeforeCorona*

      Duly noted, plate licking is acceptable. I wonder if running your fingers around the plate and licking them is still a no go? A co-worker did that during a lunch, it was a really good sauce in their defence.

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    12. Chidi has a stomachache*

      That didn’t happen to me while I was on the market for a TT position, but that is how all of the interviews for PhD admission worked. All the interviewees were invited on the same weekend and there was always a meal with all the other candidates and faculty as a part of the schedule. I did hear that changed up somewhat post-COVID, so maybe applicants are spared the awkward, now.

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    13. bananners*

      One of our AVPs is not quite a plate licker but I did witness him eat all the garnish off an appetizer with his fingers and pick a leftover piece of chicken off someone’s plate who went to the bathroom at the end of the meal. Academia…

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    14. deesse877*

      Oh my.

      I thought about chiming in with “making academic candidates compete over meals is common,” but this is ten thousand times better.

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    15. LL*

      Honestly, I can see that. Plate licking is weird and not something people normally do (in the US, at least), but I can see it just not being that important compared to whatever that candidate would bring to their role.

      Glad they didn’t give the job to the person who asked about dating students, though!

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    16. Zooey*

      A dinner with all the candidates together was standard for a long time in my academic department (it basically only died for budgetary reasons!). At my interview dinner there were three roles so it was massive. Everyone was very polite and ordering conservatively, except for one guy who had clearly either decided he didn’t want the job or he’d got no chance of getting it. He ordered the most expensive things off the menu and proceeded to get roaring drunk, even calling for more wine when he’d drunk his way through the provided bottles.

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  5. Lana*

    Lurking around pretending like you’re not involved is literally creeping- that manager IS creepy! It sounds like she either believes she’s genuinely good at this and no one knows what she’s doing, or she knows everyone knows she’s doing it but expects you to pretend like it’s not happening, ie a gaslighting power trip. Either way, if I were you, next time I’d directly involve her, “Hi there Josie, what do you think about XYZ?” and if she pretends she doesn’t want to be a part of it just continue talking with her about something else. In time she should learn that no one thinks she’s being discreet….

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    1. JJ*

      Could she just be very socially awkward? Not saying it excuses the behavior but the thing with the computer sounds like genuine cluelessness about how humans interact.

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      1. Ellis Bell*

        I always think social awkwardness lands differently from a manager than it does from a peer or a subordinate. It reminds me of the letter from the OP who wanted to be a more gracious senior leader and asked the readers for tips about all those little things in the manners of a higher up that put people at their ease.

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          1. Hlao-roo*

            The post is titled “how can I be a more gracious senior leader?” from September 19, 2024. I’ll link in a reply to this comment.

            Reply ↓
      2. Myrin*

        I don’t understand why we would need to “pathologise” her behaviour as either creepy or socially awkward when “she’s nosy and not being particularly circumspect about it” is right there.

        Reply ↓
        1. Account*

          You’re right— “nosy” is already a pejorative, and we know it applies here, so let’s use it!

          Reply ↓
        2. Bird names*

          Thanks, yeah. Describing the behavior and its impact is sufficient. Whatever personally drives her can be sorted out by her in her own time. Alison’s answer already points to how little the LW can (and should) involve herself further.

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        3. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          We don’t even have to pathologize it. She thinks lurking is a good management technique. Why she thinks that doesn’t matter. It just is not a good technique.

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          1. Angstrom*

            Well, at one point “managing by wandering around” was A Thing. But I’m pretty sure it meant “wander around and strike up conversations”, not “wander around and lurk and eavesdrop”. :-)

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            1. Smithy*

              Yeah….this strikes me almost as someone imitating that kind of management – and for whatever reason starting conversations directly isn’t how she operates. That being said, her solution isn’t appropriate.

              If the OP’s behavior in that conversation was problematic enough to warrant a write up – and the manager either has a suspicion or decided it was inappropriate after the conversation resumed – then had the manager stepped in to deescalate the conversation, and later said detailed why that approach to a conversation was inappropriate – that’s relatively normal management. No different than a manager going around the corner to join a conversation and just ask what’s up, hear what’s said, and then contribute their opinion.

              The manager could still end up being a micromanager with that style, or irksome in other ways – but it would fall under the broader umbrella of expected management.

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          1. Myrin*

            I don’t, either, that’s why I put “pathologise” in quotation marks. I meant it as a catch-all abbreviation for the inevitable “OP thinks this behaviour is creepy but I don’t think it is!” – “Yes it IS creepy!” – “No it isn’t! Being creepy means XY!” – “No it doesn’t, it needs YZ to be defined as ‘creepy’ and also this isn’t it!” because I was too lazy to think about how to structure the sentence otherwise and also to write it down like that, but I might as well have done that in the first place because now I had to, anyway.

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          2. Ellis Bell*

            Yeah, that puzzled me too, though I take the point it’s not meant literally. Creepy is people creeping around and socially awkward is just using poor social judgement? Any type of brain or level of health can do those things.

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      3. metadata minion*

        She could be, but so that’s a level of social awkwardness you really can’t have as a manager. Having a decent level of social awareness is a pretty key job qualification in that position.

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      4. Emily Byrd Starr*

        Probably not. Socially awkward people often make unintentional faux pas, but that’s usually because they don’t realize that what they’re doing is inappropriate. Sometimes it’s due to a neurological condition where they struggle to understand nonverbal communication, or they come from a culture where everyone is direct as possible, and because they were never explicitly told not to do a certain behavior, they don’t know that they’re not supposed to do it. Other people may come from a culture where the behavior is not considered a faux pas, but it is in the culture where they work.
        I highly doubt that Mary Jane doesn’t realize that she’s not supposed to be eavesdropping. Plus, the fact that she pretended to be logging out of a computer proves that she knows eavesdropping is wrong.
        The only thing that suggests social awkwardness is that her lie about logging off the computer wasn’t very believable, but she clearly knows she shouldn’t be eavesdropping.

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      5. Workerbee*

        No, because she is doing it with intent to catch people out, as is evidenced by the outcomes (taking a side, writing people up).

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    2. LaminarFlow*

      I had a manager that did this, and it was so strange. I decided to involve her in things when she creeped. Something like “Laurie, did you want to weigh in on XYZ? Or, is there something that you need from me/us?” and she would usually make up some fake excuse about what she was up to whilst lurking. She had some very strange ways, but her fake excuses were rarely something simple or plausible. I mean, did she really need to share a soup recipe with me that I expressed interest in months ago, and had forgotten about, right at that moment??

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    3. Hyaline*

      Objectively creepy and/or meeting a strict definition of creepy or not, if the OP feels creeped out, the OP feels creeped out.

      Reply ↓
    4. Potatohead*

      If she isn’t listening to the conversation, how would she know that OP was being disrespectful?

      (It doesn’t technically say who issued the writeup, but it would be an irrelevant detail if the manager didn’t.)

      Reply ↓
      2. CreepManagerLW*

        Hi, I’m the LW with the creepy manager. The write-up came from HR so I don’t 100% know, but I’m assuming it came from the creeper.

        I mean, I was kind of disrespectful, no denying it, because the person was accusing me of dishonesty and I was shocked and hurt. I could have reacted better.

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  6. Bruce*

    LW1 reminds me of a funny story about my marriage: I met my late wife and went on a few dates with her when we were in college, but I was going to school out of town so could only see her once in a while (she also had a boyfriend at different times). One time I came into town, called her up for a date and we met for dinner… only there was another guy! She sheepishly admitted she had accidentally double booked for that evening. So we had an awkward dinner for the three of us, then politely split up and went our separate ways. It was a couple more years before I graduated, we had a few more dates in the mean time and got together as a couple when I moved back. I think the fact that I did not freak out counted in my favor, the other guy was visibly peeved and as far as I know he did not get back in touch :-)

    Reply ↓
    1. MassMatt*

      But your wife in this story made a mistake. A embarrassing mistake, but it happens.

      The CEO here is doing this deliberately, and moreover is sticking to his plan despite basically everyone telling him it’s a terrible idea. This puts him solidly in jerk territory.

      If this is how he treats highly-regarded final candidates, how does he treat employees? My mind reels.

      Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      That’s a cute story. It’s funny you should draw a romantic comparison; my reaction to the headline was that competing job candidates being forced to have dinner together would be a great premise for a romantic comedy. There’s no version where the character of the boss isn’t a complete crackpot, though.

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      1. Burpees are evil*

        They used to do this on The Bachelor (Aus- not sure about other countries). The Bachelor or Bachelorette would go on a super awkward date with two of their hopefuls and dump one of them on it.

        Reply ↓
          1. Jill Swinburne*

            Nah, they’ve got an on/off thing already, or maybe one ghosted the other at some point previously, then they both apply for the job and of course the dinner is a big surprise to each of them but they try to style it out. Cue hijinks as they try to sabotage each other’s chances of getting the job, which get more and more ludicrous, but in the end they decide that they can’t compete against each other, the company hires both of them, and happily ever after.

            Reply ↓
            1. amoeba*

              They’re old-time rivals (who may or may not have had one drunk night together years ago) who end up having to compete against each other but unexpectedly fall in love in the process – they also then end up going into business together, while ditching the company!

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      2. Beany*

        The first thing I thought of when reading the letter was the Family Ties episode when Alex Keaton accidentally (I think?) invites two girls to a prom. He has to keep swapping out corsages as he crosses the room, and of course that doesn’t work for long.

        Reply ↓
            1. KayDeeAye*

              Apex is making a Family Ties joke. Alex always or almost always introduced himself as “Alex P. Keaton.”

              Reply ↓
            2. AngryOctopus*

              But it’s also a direct reference to how the character refers to himself, so quite apt and necessary.

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      1. EvilQueenRegina*

        There was actually something very similar in Sweet Valley High – Jessica was dating two guys and using different names, and she’d ended up with two dates on the same night because she’d given one of them Lila’s number to call her on after Alice took a call and said “Magenta Galaxy?! Sorry, wrong number!” Lila then couldn’t get hold of Jessica in time to give her a message from that guy about a date, and by the time she did speak to her, Jessica had a date with the other guy at the same time and same place. She ended up making Elizabeth go and pretend to be her, and they kept swapping dates across the room (teenage me thought “Why don’t they just stick to one twin on one date, might be a bit easier?”)

        Reply ↓
        1. Apex Mountain*

          It may have been here on AAM (not positive) but a couple of years ago there was an interview with one of the writers of those books – pretty interesting !

          Reply ↓
      2. LifebeforeCorona*

        Or almost any sitcom or rom-com movie. IIRC there was even a comedy? movie about a man who had two women giving birth at the same time and he was rushing room to room, hilarity ensued except it was painfully unfunny.

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      3. me*

        It was also a plotline on an episode of The Great North where all the teenagers set up multiple dates with other teenagers. It’s a cute way to incorporate the trope and also a cute resolution to the dilemma

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    4. Syzygy*

      That story makes me like your wife very much! It’s funny and sweet. I hope your marriage holds many happy memories

      Reply ↓
  7. Viette*

    Eavesdropping Boss LW: “Eventually the conversation continued and she continued to pretend she wasn’t listening. Later on I got written up for being disrespectful to the supervisor in that conversation.”

    I do wonder at this. In these settings, is there buy-in from colleagues to exit or end situations where she’s obviously eavesdropping? That is to say, what would have happened if you’d dialed it down considerably, or changed the topic? “Maybe we can table this for later; my general point is [sedate version of main point].” Would other people pick up what you were putting down, or would they pretend she wasn’t listening and that her behavior is fine?

    Also, clearly she was listening and clearly she listens all the time. If your workplace is a space where your boss eavesdrops and acts on what she hears, unfortunately you should incorporate that into your actions (up to and including getting a different job).

    Do you think you did in fact warrant that write up? Because if you didn’t, and she both eavesdrops AND makes irrational decisions based on what she hears, that’s much worse than simply eavesdropping.

    Reply ↓
    1. Testing*

      Likewise, if your communication WAS in fact disrespectful, you should probably start by thinking about how to change that. In that case, the eavesdropping manager is not the main problem here.

      Reply ↓
      1. Smithy*

        Yeah – I will say, as someone who used to work somewhere problematic as a more junior staff member – it can become hard to take personal accountability for when we make mistakes because those more senior than us are being wildly awful so much of the time and it feels like nothing is happening to them.

        There was a case where a very well-liked middle manager was fired, and a lot of us did want to be able to really rally around how unfair it was because of that laundry list of other people’s misdeeds. But when I heard why he was fired, it was a true case of “well, you really can’t do that”.

        The OP’s manager can be largely problematic, the workplace, largely problematic – but I’ve seen it give frustrated junior employees take less and less accountability for when they do engage inappropriately.

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        1. Smithy*

          (And just in case it wasn’t clear – I’m entirely speaking about myself and my own behavior as well as others)

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    2. bamcheeks*

      Yeah, I am also confused by this. She wasn’t being sneaky in this case, she was quite visibly there in the room, and you still carried on the argument to the point you were written up for disrespect?

      What I am wondering is whether she has some concerns about oh and is deliberately trying to pay attention to how you interact with people. As a general modus operandi it is a bit weird, but if I had heard that one of my reports was pissing people off with how they interacted, “overhearing” some of the conversations would be a logical way to find out more. And you do not have an expectation of privacy if you’re in a corridor at work!

      Reply ↓
        1. Pickles*

          Do managers ignore heated discussions? They probably shouldn’t. This one sounds like it was more than heated.

          Reply ↓
      2. Bird names*

        Oh, that’s interesting, I didn’t catch that.
        I interpreted the disrespect to mean that LW pointed to the elephant in the room with her remark, i.e. the deliberate invitation to join by itself was seen as inacceptable.

        Reply ↓
        1. bamcheeks*

          It says “disrespectful to the supervisor”, which means that LW is less concerned with “was I disrespectful and was this write up fair” and more with “why did my manager come into the room when I was having this discussion, it was unfair and weird of her not to let me disrespectful in private”, which seems … an odd set of priorities.

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          1. AlsoADHD*

            It’s weird to not address something and then write someone up for it later though. That’s not good management either way.

            Reply ↓
            1. Leenie*

              Maybe the manager didn’t want to undermine the supervisor in the moment, and wanted to get the supervisor’s thoughts about what occurred before taking action.

              I’m one of the people who misread the letter as saying the write up was for disrespecting the manager/eavesdropper, which sounded like an ego trip on the manager’s part. But after these comments clarified the players involved, I am wondering more about the dynamics there, and whether there’s a pattern of behavior from the LW that seems to merit more observation from the manager, even if the manager might be going about it in an awkward way.

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              1. Saturday*

                Yeah, I could see her staying silent in the moment to avoid undermining the supervisor. It may have played out differently if the supervisor had chosen to bring her into the conversation at the time.

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            2. MigraineMonth*

              Is the fact that the manager was in the room a red herring, though? If she weren’t, and the supervisor went to the manager to report the disrespectful argument and the OP was written up for that, would that be considered normal?

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      3. CreepManagerLW*

        Hi, LW here.

        Not in a corridor, in a room off to the side with thick doors which had been closed. Hence creeper’s need to enter the room. She couldn’t eavesdrop in her normal way.

        My interaction with the supervisor was a problem, I’ll admit that. It can be a very aggressive, toxic workplace, and this particular supervisor manages by punishing and insinuating rather than taking a formal approach, and she was accusing me of dishonesty, which I found shocking and very hurtful.

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    3. Llama Llama*

      It makes me think of a time that a department manager and one of his employees went into a room to argue. They were very loud and my team could hear all the words they were saying. At one point the employee yelled ‘I don’t like you’ and the manager responded, ‘Well I don’t care’.

      All that to say, maybe your ‘heated’ conversation wasn’t as quiet as you think it was. And obviously your manager lurks/creeps so remember that in how you behave.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

        Yeah, if you’re having heated conversations at work, I honestly don’t blame your manager for looking for a way to get herself into the room to figure out what was going on. That said, the “writeup” was a pretty passive-aggressive way to handle this – a direct intervention and debrief with you would have been within the scope of her authority – and the habit of eavesdropping in general definitely colors it.

        Does she eavesdrop with all of her direct reports, or does this seem like uniquely a dynamic you have with her? If the latter, that’s a warning sign that she has concerns about how you’re interacting with colleagues. She’s handling it poorly – she should be addressing it directly with you – but you could try asking her for her feedback on that, try to get any concerns in the open, and then negotiate a way for her to stay aware of how that’s going without making you so uncomfortable.

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        1. Turquoisecow*

          But I also feel like as the manager, the eavesdropper doesn’t need an excuse to go into a room to eavesdrop on what’s happening. She definitely has standing to open the door and say “hey, what’s going on in here, I heard shouting?” and attempt to mediate an argument. She doesn’t need to make up some excuse about using a computer and then pretend to take five minutes to do a two second task and awkwardly sit there while the discussion continues and pretend not to listen. She’s the manager! She can intervene with her direct reports and take a stand, “actually, Bob, Jane is right here and the TPS reports do need to be stapled on the upper right, even though that looks dumb.”

          If a coworker did that it would be overstepping but a manager can directly intervene. It seems like this manager might a bit more passive, though.

          Reply ↓
      2. LifebeforeCorona*

        I’ve heard heated discussions at work and every time the conversation stayed polite and on-topic. What bothered most people was the volume of the voices. It was distracting.

        Reply ↓
    4. Mockingjay*

      I think this situation indicates a very dysfunctional office. OP2 has a heated discussion with a colleague, Boss comes in to lurk and listen, but doesn’t intervene or neutralize the discussion and instead gives OP2 a writeup.

      I think there is more going on than your letter describes. OP2, please take some time and look at how your company/department functions and your role within it. Ask yourself why the discussion became so heated. Do you and your coworker use different approaches to problem solving? Are you and/or coworkers stuck making decisions or executing work “wrongly” because of your boss’s inactions or lack of direction? Are all/most team interactions discordant?

      Please consider what’s really going on and what you can do yourself to make things better. You can’t change your boss, but you can manage your responses, especially for things you can’t change or that aren’t your purview.

      Reply ↓
      1. Smithy*

        Yes to all of this.

        Additionally, this behavior may be reasonable or necessary at this workplace. Essentially places where if you don’t yell or express other negative or aggressive emotions visibly, you’re not listened to. I used to work somewhere where my boss told me many times that when she yelled at me, I should just yell back. The reality was that because I didn’t yell back, she’d actually yell at me longer than at other colleagues.

        The fortunate reality, is that many many other workplaces – and usually workplaces where we want to stay – do not work that way. But it can be difficult to unlearn survival behaviors for one workplace when we do change jobs.

        The OP’s manager sounds difficult and irritating, but it may very well be its own survival tactic for this workplace. That it makes no sense in isolation, but has helped them navigate their path at this employer.

        Reply ↓
    5. CreepManagerLW*

      Hi, LW here. I kind of did deserve it because I was being unfairly accused of dishonesty and I was shocked and in the moment, responded intemperately. I could have handled it better. But you’ll just have to believe me on the fact that the accusation was untrue.

      I’m new and the manager and supervisor have worked together for a long time, and the creeper would always take the side of a long-term employee.

      Reply ↓
  8. Brain sparkles*

    #3 You’ve just left a toxic boss who expected you to be a mindreader and have done everything by yesterday. Your body has become accustomed to the shifting ground, and is now panicking because it doesn’t know where the next shift is coming from. Rebuilding your confidence after a toxic boss is HARD, and time consuming, and takes a lot of self-work. But keep reminding yourself of how awesome you were before all that happened, this is NOT your old workplace, and go see a therapist. YOU’VE GOT THIS, AWESOME INTERNET STRANGER!!!

    Reply ↓
    1. Amy Purralta*

      I had a ridiculously toxic boss for 3 months, I got out of there ASAP. It took me a couple of years to get my confidence back to levels before I worked for her. It can really mess with your head. I’ve had rubbish Managers before her, but nobody affected me like she did. Others also left during that period because of her and her boss gave me a glowing review. However, my stress couldn’t understand she was the problem not me.

      Good Luck OP3, I hope you feel settled soon.

      Reply ↓
      1. LifebeforeCorona*

        Me too, I was constantly apologizing and afraid to make minor decisions because of that. It takes a long time to regain your self-confidence. My mantra became you can make mistakes and if we know about them we can fix them. I never wanted my staff to be afraid to approach me about anything. We hired someone who came from a culture where you did not deviate from set practices because every procedure was written down and followed to the letter. We were much smaller and more flexible and it took a long time for them to lose the mindset they would be written up for not ensuring 3 olives were on every salad when we had no olives.

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    2. Your former password resetter*

      That jumped out at me too. This sounds like they’re still in the same frame of mind as under the old dysfuncfional boss.

      Which is to be expected of course. They had to deal with these warped expectations and undermining behaviour for two years, while it’s only been a few weeks at the new job.
      And getting up to speed in a remote team is generally harder than an office job , which provides lots of opportunities for those thougts to resurface.

      Reply ↓
    3. londonedit*

      Yes, I was going to say the same. It’s incredible how much of an impact a toxic work environment and/or a terrible boss can have, and how long that impact can last. It’s really not surprising that the OP is still feeling wobbly – especially after only a couple of weeks! Starting a new job is nerve-wracking at the best of times, let alone when you’ve got that toxic voice in your head from a bad previous experience.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        I spent 7 years in an environment where any mistake you made had to immediately be reported to your manager or you could be fired. It’s 7 years later, I’m in a completely different environment, but every time I make a mistake I have to take a few breaths and remind myself I’m fine and my job isn’t on the line. When it’s a particularly egregious mistake, I still report it to my manager, which results in this conversation:

        Me: I made X mistake. It has had Y consequences, and potentially might result in Z. I’ve fixed the issue and taken steps A and B to remedy the situation. I’m currently doing a root-cause analysis to figure out what caused the mistake and how we could catch similar ones in the future.

        Manager: Uh… sounds good. Did you need something from me?

        Me: No. I just wanted you to know.

        Manger: Ok. Carry on.

        Reply ↓
        1. higheredadmin*

          100%! I had a toxic boss after 15 years of stellar work. (Jerk was internally promoted – my first clue should have been when my lovely manager immediately put in her resignation.) I made it for two years before I gave up and left a job and career I loved. I ended up at another position in the same org (different department) and was shocked at how long it took me to recover my confidence, and this was in a structure where I already knew people and generally how my new area worked (hint – measure in years). Toxic boss was also one of those who made any small mistake into WWIII and therefore lots of hiding and nervous behavior. OP – give yourself grace and know that in addition to learning the new job you have to heal.

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    4. Paint N Drip*

      So so true. Even if you logically know not every job is like that, not every boss is like that, and you are competent… creeping fears are inherently illogical and can definitely sabotage you! You’ve got this OP!

      Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed – I want to point out that part of the panic is undoubtedly a reaction to the work conditions the OP had before at the old job. It’s going to take some time to recover.

      I had a similar situation early in my career – ended up having to do temping jobs afterwards to get back on my (metaphorical) feet and re-learn what a normal work environment should be like. Actually took me a couple of years to recover my confidence and not feel like I was about to get (metaphorically) attacked out of nowhere at any point.

      The good news is that I did recover, and so will you, OP. Give yourself some grace. If you’re feeling very lost in your role, ask for time with your colleagues to get more familiar with the way the department does things.

      Reply ↓
    6. AngryOwl*

      This is so, so true. I had years of this at two different companies and I’m still healing even though I’m at an awesome place now.

      Reply ↓
    7. Goldenrod*

      OP 3 – I completely agree (and identify with) all the comments about how a toxic boss can affect you for YEARS afterwards.

      I have a really nice boss now, and whenever he says, “Hey, can we talk about something?” my stomach gives a little lurch and I brace myself for criticism…and then it’s always, ALWAYS something like, “Have you seen such-and-such movie?” or something ridiculously innocuous like that.

      I want to also say that, apart from that issue, starting new jobs is always hard, especially if you’ve been in a role for a long time. You’re used to knowing everything…suddenly, you don’t know ANYTHING and it’s rough. In my experience, it does take a while to get your “sea legs.” All you can do in the meantime, is just know that those feelings are totally normal.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  9. But Of Course*

    LW 3, I don’t know if this will help or hurt, but you might want to talk to some of your closer coworkers about the cycle of the business. My job has a two-year cycle – once you’ve done two years, you’ve done everything we expect to do, including our biennial convention and a legislative biennium. It sounds daunting but a year is fine for most of it, it’s just those two things are big speed bumps in their years. That might help you assess when to start worrying, but I agree with Alison that you’re a long ways from needing to worry; 2.5 weeks is nothing at all.

    Reply ↓
  10. MassMatt*

    Eavesdropping boss is creepy but is the boss. Now you know. Rather than expect her to change, or consider confronting her, I would basically treat the entire workplace the same way as company email: Don’t say anything at work you wouldn’t be comfortable having her hear. She probably snoops in other ways—does she have access to employee email?

    Reply ↓
  11. IainC*

    #1 Did the boys watch the Hunger Games recently and took the title too literally?

    (Yes, this is a terrible idea. Though I world slay be quite curious how it goes. Will they be out-politing each other?)

    Reply ↓
    1. Jen*

      Yeah, I’ve heard of taking a candidate out to lunch or dinner in part to see how they treat the waitstaff. Doing this for both candidates in the same outing might be more cost effective, I guess.

      Reply ↓
    2. juliebulie*

      I had a job where the boss took our two star candidates to lunch with us and we ended up hiring them both.

      This was during the 90s when you could sometimes, rarely, turn one req into two.

      Ultimately, one of those people had to be fired because he was a pain in the ass and totally incompetent. So the net gain was one.

      Reply ↓
      1. juliebulie*

        …not saying it was a good idea to take them to lunch together, but it was a chance for the rest of the team to meet both candidates. Anyway, since we overwhelmingly agreed to hire both, it was fine. But I can imagine how it must have looked to them.

        That boss was a jerk in a lot of ways that I couldn’t see until it was too late. I like to think I’m smarter now!

        Reply ↓
  12. Grand Bargain*

    #1 Just heard on MSNBC… “five cats in a bag management style.” As political commentary, it’s funny and/or tragic. If it’s the approach a CEO embraces or that underlies an employer’s culture, “no thanks.”

    Reply ↓
    2. MigraineMonth*

      Is it a good idea? Hell no!

      Will it tell your candidates a lot about your CEO’s management style? Yes.

      Reply ↓
  13. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

    #3 You were fired from a job which used to be great then turned toxic. This experience would have made you very nervous at the start of any new job, no matter how great the onboarding and coworkers.

    Your manager should carve out sufficient time for a new employee, but she is unaware that your recent job history has made you feel so insecure and hence doesn’t realise you likely need more time & reassurance than the typical new starter.
    Remote onboarding is probably increasing your anxiety, because you are missing out on body language and it is slower & takes more deliberate work to form new relationships.

    I suggest you EM her and say you’d love a 1-1 to get feedback on how you are doing and ask some questions. During the 1-1 you could also ask for say a monthly checkin with her.

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      I agree that the previous experience is coloring your impression of what’s happening now. That doesn’t mean that your boss couldn’t be doing a much better job of onboarding, though.

      But to add a little context: I’m in the 36th year of my career and have been with my current employer for 12 years in more or less the same role. I still find myself having to ask a lot of questions (mostly people questions, who is the SME for this or that, but sometimes product or project questions) that I feel I should know the answers to by now, but the fact is that things change quickly, I will always be unsure of something. That’s not my fault, not the boss’s fault, just the nature of things. But sometimes I still feel a twinge of “duh” when I ask.

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  14. Sarah*

    You could just stop talking when the manager comes in or move to a different room. Maybe hse will get the point.

    Reply ↓
    1. Myrin*

      Yeah, it doesn’t change the overall situation but I don’t really get why in this instance, the OP resumed the conversation instead of tabling it for later (or even just waiting until manager was “done”), especially when she knows that that’s manager’s MO.

      Reply ↓
    2. MassMatt*

      Or… don’t say things you’re not comfortable with the manager hearing? If you keep your conversations professional, it doesn’t matter who’s listening for the most part.

      Reply ↓
    3. Emily Byrd Starr*

      Or switch the conversation to something so off-putting and disgusting that she will have no choice but to leave. Say that you have a yeast infection or genital warts or jock itch or some other issue down there, and describe it. Talk about your bowel movements in great detail: color, shape, smell, etc. Guaranteed that Mary Jane will quickly leave the room, at which point you can resume your previous conversation.
      )Just kidding. Don’t really do that.)

      Reply ↓
      1. LifebeforeCorona*

        Something less divisive like ending of a TV show like The Sopranos or eggs in potato salad. No eggs, period.

        Reply ↓
  15. Glen*

    odds on both candidates in #1 deciding that, actually, they don’t want the job any more? Which would also be extremely funny.

    Reply ↓
    2. Paint N Drip*

      executive-level applicants? I think the odds are comedically high, good luck to OP’s boss lol

      Reply ↓
    3. learnedthehardway*

      I think there are pretty good odds that neither will agree to the meeting. Both will be insulted, in fact.

      Beyond the implication that this is a cattle call, candidates will be very upset that the CEO is this cavalier about candidate confidentiality.

      This situation has the potential to negatively affect the CEO’s reputation and the recruitment brand of the organization. I would definitely be making some disparaging remarks to my network, if I were a candidate in this process.

      Reply ↓
  16. amoeba*

    I once had a (whole day) job interview where they decided to have me and the other finalist interview at the same time, just switching rooms/panels, basically. Everybody had lunch and the site tour together. It was definitely weird but not as awkward as I’d have expected, haha! But definitely not something I’d recommend to any hiring manager. The one in that case was, errr, on the chaotic side for sure… (heard the stories from friends working there).
    I’d have still taken the job but it got cancelled later – maybe for the best!

    Dinner doesn’t actually seem *that* weird to me, it happens sometimes in my field if the interviews are more “assessment centre” style. I was once invited to a final round where they invited five candidates for a two-day thing (I guess including group things as well as individual interviews?) for two free positions… didn’t end up going as I’d already accepted another job, but would have been fine with it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Elsa*

      Yup, my current job did an “assessment center” thing where they brought in eight candidates for a four-hour thing, involving group tasks and individual tasks. It was actually fine – we all generally liked each other and had a pretty good time. I still have no idea why they offered me the job at the end, though – everyone seemed very qualified.

      Reply ↓
          1. InterviewProjects*

            If you’re producing usable work product (like a sample project) you should get paid (I’ve gotten small consulting fees from a couple of companies that gave me time boxed homework projects between interviews). Otherwise, not so much. So it depends on what tasks they’re doing and how the results will be used.

            Reply ↓
          2. amoeba*

            Yeah, I mean, the assassment centres I’ve seen were definitely not about producing any actual work, it was more like group excercises, discussions, etc. So nothing you’d get paid for, no more than for a “normal” interview.

            As “normal” final round interviews are generally a full day in my field as well, this really wasn’t unusual in that respect.

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  17. also this*

    What about the privacy of the two candidates in question #1? I’d want the fact that I’ve applied for the job to be shared only on a need-to-know basis — HR, hiring committee, my references — so that my current employer doesn’t hear through the grapevine that I’m considering leaving. Along with it being awkward to have dinner with the other candidate, it also unnecessarily increases the number of people who could potentially “out” my job search.

    Reply ↓
  18. Myrin*

    #1, I find the CEO’s “a little competition” verbiage both off-putting and just really strange on a… practical level? IDK if that’s the right word but for me personally, even if I’m competing with that other person for a job, I have no beef with them. I would make polite and friendly talk and feel awfully weird about trying to obviously and visibly one-up another person I’m having dinner with, which seems to be what the CEO is expecting.

    Or really, now that I’m thinking about it, I guess that is my question at the core of all this: how does the CEO expect this to go? Because I can’t get a read on that at all – are the candidates supposed to pretend like this is just a normal get-together among colleagues? Is he going to favour the person who seems more relaxed about the whole thing? Or on the contrary, the one who is trying to be more dominant/forceful? Is he trying to orchestrate a round of fisticuffs? What outcome is he envisioning which he would count as “positive”?

    Reply ↓
    1. Thomas*

      My ultimate view is the CEO should listen to *his* team telling him this is a really bad idea, and indeed the fact that he’s not willing to listen to such advice says a lot about him as a CEO.

      But I do think there’s some merit. You’ll get to see how each candidate interacts with someone they consider a rival in that social setting. Rude and disrespectful? Outwardly polite but undermining? Ignoring them? Etc.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

        The fact that the team all said no and the CEO is still but its the greatest idea ever says a lot about CEO. In what other ways does this management style show up? Is this someplace OP still wants to consider working given how bull headed the CEO is.

        Reply ↓
    2. Richard Hershberger*

      The scenario in my brain canon is Candidate A is gracious and engaging throughout the meal, while Candidate B has the knives out to skewer Candidate A. While would the CEO favor?

      Reply ↓
        1. Heidi*

          I could also see it going the other way. The competitive one will be gunning for the CEO’s job, like how the Sith apprentice overthrows the master.

          Reply ↓
    3. Hyaline*

      Yeah it’s like…applying for a job is by nature competitive. I’m not sure what the CEO thinks he’s adding here by seeing who “wins dinner”?

      Reply ↓
      1. Ama*

        Part of me is starting to wonder if this is really about the CEO not wanting to have to take two candidates to two separate dinners (whether for cost reasons or time reasons) so he’s made up this rationale for why it’s okay to host both at the same time.

        Reply ↓
    4. HonorBox*

      If the CEO is dead set that dinner is a good idea, which I can support, because if they’re going to be working closely with the person they select for this position, you may be able to get a better sense of how you’d function together in a more casual setting. But trying to get that sense with two candidates is going to put the CEO on their heels a bit because they can’t really focus as well.

      Reply ↓
    5. a trans person*

      I can imagine accepting this dinner invitation. As somebody mentioned above, sometimes there’s a possibility of hiring both people, etc.

      If the CEO mentioned “competition” to us, or tried to create some? Even once? I’m pretty sure I would walk out on the spot. I strongly agree with your feeling about that wording; it’s just *wrong* for how I (and I suspect most AAM people) think about hiring.

      Reply ↓
  19. Just Me*

    I’ve actually had a lot of interviews pre-covid that included a meal with another interviewee – to me that’s pretty normal. Of course post-covid I never encountered an interview that included a meal, so maybe the times have changed and a meal is more about single interviewee thing, but taking both at the same time really wouldn’t phase me…the only time I ever found it awkward to be with another interviewee was the time that person turned the conversation to what other jobs I had applied to in the past and why I didn’t get them…but the rest of the time it never felt weird.

    Reply ↓
    1. amoeba*

      I just realised that I was also once invited to an interview that would have included dinner together with the other candidate(s?) That was in academia though, so I guess different norms. I ended up not being able to go to the dinner for scheduling reasons and was actually a bit worried that would hurt my chances, but from what they told me the other candidates ended up cancelling as well, so the dinner never happened.

      Of course, they then also decided that none of us were the ideal candidate and to keep searching… so who knows, maybe if we’d gone to the dinner? (JK, I realised I wasn’t the right person for the job when I was there!)

      Reply ↓
    2. gwenjones*

      That’s interesting! Can I ask what field? I wonder if it’s more common in some types of jobs than others. I’m also wondering if your interviews were at the executive c-suite level. In my field (nonprofit work), I could honestly see a dinner with multiple candidates for some of our roles, but it would be very, very strange to get a good high level exec this way.

      Reply ↓
  20. Not-so-interim*

    #4: Solidarity! I have been doing my role on a temporary basis for 3+ years, and I’m now interviewing to do it permanently. It’s a bizarre and unsettling process. It’s strangely comforting to know that someone else out there is doing the same thing. I’m 2 out of three rounds through the interview process. I’ve asked similar questions to the suggestions above. If I have any extra time (and because I know the people I’m talking to really well), I’ve asked what people would most like to change about the organization, if they could change one thing. The answers have been illuminating, running the gamut from pay equity to the parking garage.

    Good luck with your interview! I hope we are both on the other side of this soon, with our new (permanent!) jobs secured.

    Reply ↓
    1. Nameo*

      Thank you for sharing! I’m interviewing for an internal role today :)

      Good luck with your last interview!!!

      Reply ↓
  21. Ganymede II*

    LW3 – I started a new job less than a year ago after my previous one ended badly. The bad feelings from the previous job threw my confidence enormously, and I was actually shocked when during my performance review, my manager sang my praises. I thought I was going to walk into a PIP warning, and had prepared the meeting with a mental list of steps I was ready to take to improve, etc.

    In hindsight, what would have helped me feel more confidence:
    – writing down, after my 1:1s, the feedback from my new manager. She had never hinted at very bad performance, I made it up in my head, forcing myself to write it down might have helped me see that more clearly;
    – talking to someone who gets it a bit, but not too close to the situation. Do you have a mentor? A friend who does not BS? see if they’re available for you to chat with a couple times a month;
    – talking plainly with my new manager: explain that a bad ending to a previous job might mess with your perception, and you would appreciate direct feedback on your performance, good or bad, to help understand how you’re doing (your mileage may vary here! It depends on what kind of person they are!).

    Best of luck!

    Reply ↓
    1. 100%*

      These are great tips! It’s super helpful to write things out objectively and get feedback from someone you trust so you can give yourself validation. Going through a similar experience, it’s been eye opening and helping to build trust back in my own instincts and now what is average behaviour. Toxic boss before didn’t display average behaviour and people adapt out of fear. I jokingly call asking out people for feedback “sanity checks” cuz it keeps me sane

      Reply ↓
      1. 100%*

        can’t figure out how to edit… meant *know what average behaviour and *asking flat out people for feedback

        Reply ↓
  22. Falling Diphthong*

    CEO1: “I have an idea!”
    OP1: “That is a terrible idea.”
    CEO1: “I will ask five other people.”
    Five Other People: “Terrible idea.”
    CEO1: “I still think this is a great idea.”

    It’s good to know Juice Guy landed on his feet and has become a CEO.

    In a movie, the obvious outcome is that the two candidates hit it off and decide to go in together to launch a competing business, which soon dominates CEO1’s business. Real life probably can’t pull that off. But the candidates may well read this as “This job is screening for desperation–with that knowledge, do I want to take it?” Interviews are a 2-way street.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Juice Guy! One of my favorite AAM letters. For anyone who hasn’t read it, the letter is #4 of the “my boss treats me like I’m not very smart, I got in trouble for taking someone’s juice, and more” from May 31, 2017. Juice Guy commented a dozen times as “Andrew” alternately owning up to being OP4 and pretending OP4 was someone else but consistently digging in his heals that because he was not a liar, he could therefore not be a thief.

      Reply ↓
  23. Keymaster of Gozer (she/her)*

    3. Get an outside opinion that you trust – which youve done! Alison and the community here have told you that you are reacting like most people would. I KNOW how much effort it takes to ask for a sanity check and you did it. Is there anyone offline you can trust too?

    Recentre yourself outside of work. This is hard to put into words but you need a foundation, a rock, somewhere. Somewhere where you know you are right, you are good, you are enough. Friends, family, community.

    When you start feeling like youve effed up take a break. 5 minutes or open a window and get some fresh air (climate permitting). You likely havent but you need time for the limbic system to get back down from overdrive.

    If you can get therapy do it. Else, I got a lot of good advice from the Captain Awkward archives – theres a lot there about recalibrating yourself after escaping abuse of any sort.

    And mate, relax. Ive made some collosal screwups in my career and Im still here.

    Reply ↓
  24. pally*

    #1 reminds me of a story about Henry Ford deciding which candidate to hire for an executive position. He took both candidates to dinner and then watched their actions.

    One treated the waitstaff rudely while the other was polite, treating all waitstaff with dignity and kindness. One salted the steak prior to tasting it. The other did not.

    At the end of the meal, Mr. Ford hired one of the candidates. He explained to the other that his rudeness and salting of the food prior to tasting it, reflected the actions of a poor manager.

    To explain: managers need to be respectful to all, regardless of station. Managers need to try something out before deciding to make changes.

    That said, I agree that the dinner idea is not a very good one.

    Reply ↓
    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      rudeness, absolutely. But what does the fact that 40+ years of experience tells me that I prefer my steak more salted than most folks eat it, and DEFINITELY saltier than any restaurant serves it, have to do with my management capacity? :P

      Reply ↓
      1. pally*

        Agree.
        I think there’s a whole lot of ridiculous ‘lore’ over “if someone exhibits X behavior, this translates into Y kind of person”.
        The idea being one can short-cut the getting to know a candidate time by heeding this ‘lore’.
        Thing is, food preferences are not a substitute for management practices. Nor is how one dresses, appears, sounds or looks translate into how one manages or what their accomplishments are or even if they will make a good employee. But that’s the way people play it.

        Reply ↓
    2. Apex Mountain*

      I once was taken to lunch by the VP at a company I worked at. It was a nice experience until his soup came, and I noticed he put the oyster crackers in before even tasting it?!

      I went home, had a long talk with my wife, and turned in my resignation the next day. There was no way I could continue to work for such a “leader”

      Reply ↓
    3. MassMatt*

      Off topic, but the notion that Henry Ford, of all people, screened job candidates for kindness is hilarious.

      Reply ↓
      2. Apex Mountain*

        “Well Candidate A was polite to the waiter and rude to all the Jewish people” – he’s our man!

        Reply ↓
      5. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Yeah, I was going to be like, “the same Henry Ford who shot protesting workers?”

        Reply ↓
  25. Cat Lady in the Mountains*

    LW3 – what you’re experiencing is super normal starting any new job in a different industry, but especially after leaving a toxic workplace.

    Re: remote onboarding, from the manager side – it always worries me when new staff don’t have a million questions about context, prioritization, expectations, etc. There’s a ton of stuff you miss from not being in an office where there’s opportunity for osmosis – so definitely ask those questions. I always try to give lots of context for new staff but my guesses about what would be helpful often don’t match what new staff actually need, and I don’t know that unless they tell me.

    You can also ask for feedback about how your onboarding is matching up with their expectations, and be explicit about how it’s going for you. But truly, any decent manager who routinely onboards staff remotely won’t fault you a couple weeks in for feeling overwhelmed. (They also probably have no idea how you’re feeling – it’s SO hard to pick up on this stuff when your only contact with someone is through screens.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      100%. I work in a field that has a pretty steep learning curve and most people (myself included) learn most of it on the job. A lot of stuff is remarkably complicated and there’s a lot of nomenclature to learn. We also have approximately one million acronyms. Most people are going to be overwhelmed when they join us, but with time and experience, they get there. By and large, we’re pretty understanding about new people needing some help to get up to speed. LW, please take your new colleagues up on their offers of help. Once you’ve built some trust, you can also ask them to let you know about any particular preferences your boss has that are helpful to know.

      I’m sure it feels scary to talk to your boss, given how crappy your last one was, but any halfway decent boss would have no problem with a discussion about ensuring you’re aligned with her priorities, meeting expectations, have a sense of the long-term plan for your work, etc. You’re just asking for information to make you as effective as possible in the role! I’d interpret this as you being a diligent, conscientious employee.

      Reply ↓
  26. Don't Call Me*

    #2 My cubicle was across from that of a former manager and they listened to every phone call I had. Afterwards, I would be interrogated. “Who were your talking to?” “What did they say?” “Why did you say that?” and so forth. I tried to only be on the phone when they were not sitting at their desk but that was impossible.

    Reply ↓
  27. Susie and Elaine Problem*

    #1: I think the only situation in which this is acceptable is if the CEO has two separate dinners at the same time for the candidates – unbeknownst to each, and needs to find excuses to switch tables throughout the dinner like in sitcoms.

    Reply ↓
    2. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      This is brilliant! And whichever candidate figures it out first wins a prize! (Maybe not the job, maybe just A New Car! or A Mink Coats!)

      Reply ↓
  28. HonorBox*

    Regarding the joint dinner, I would have a concern that the “competition” would lead to not actually getting the true picture of who the candidates actually are, how they operate, and what they think they can do. The nice thing about a dinner is you get to know someone a little better in a much more casual situation. With two people together, the CEO is not going to be able to really focus on one person and get a sense of who they are. They’re going to be playing traffic cop or air traffic controller and may miss something important. Or they may end up hearing one-upping of one another where the company is getting someone who has promised something that they really can’t deliver. Or you’re going to have two people so anxious that everything is played too close to the vest. Or, worse, you’re going to end up with two good candidates who walk away from the company because they see this as a sign of terrible management.

    What a bad idea. The CEO needs to do a better job making a decision.

    Reply ↓
  29. the Viking Diva*

    I did go to lunch once with another academic candidate! The interview day was super squirrelly, with odd gaps in the schedule and people darting out at inopportune moments. At some point I discovered someone I was meeting was supposed to go to two sequential lunches, and it turned out they were interviewing two of us on the same day, but for different positions in the same department. So I said, good heavens, if we’re both hired we’d be colleagues – we can have lunch together. The whole thing was very odd, in multiple ways – a job well dodged. But that part was funny.

    Reply ↓
  30. HonorBox*

    Apologies if this gets posted twice. My browser seemed to freeze the first time.

    Regarding the dinner: The real problem with the “competition” is that you’re likely not going to get the same sort of opportunity to evaluate who a person is, how they operate, and what you’ll be getting from them if this is done with two candidates instead of one. You’re also not going to be able to ensure the candidates get all the information and insight they need to effectively evaluate the CEO and the company. Rather than being able to have a true conversation, the CEO is going to play air traffic control or traffic cop, as the candidates potentially try to one up one another. You may find that candidates have to promise more than they can deliver, just trying to stand out. Or worse, you may find that both candidates see how bad an idea this is and decide that this is going to be management they don’t care to work for.

    CEO needs to do their job and actually spend the time evaluating each person individually.

    Reply ↓
    1. amoeba*

      Eh, tbh, I agree it’s not a great idea but I’d also expect grown-ups interviewing for a high-level position to be able to be polite and professional with their competitor! I’ve had lunch together with a second candidate once and it was a little weird, but completely fine – we got along well, nobody tried to upstage anybody. I believe if one of us had tried, it would certainly not have been a point in our favour!

      I really see the bigger problem with confidentiality – I’d rather not be outed to a random person in my field as searching for a new job. You never know who they might know, and unlike the hiring manager and the people on the committee, they might not feel obliged to keep that information confidential…

      Reply ↓
  31. Delta Delta*

    #1 – I went to a local conference with other lawyers in my area about 10-12 years ago. A lawyer-friend, Wakeen, asked me if I’d like to have lunch during the break. He was always a good colleague and I didn’t see him often, so I agreed. When we met on the sidewalk to walk to lunch, another lawyer, Tangerina, joined us. I also like her, and it seemed like it would be a friendly lunch. It turned out to be Wakeen interviewing Tangerina for a job at his firm, and I was basically there just to be a witness to the whole thing. Tangerina had no idea this was coming and had to fumble through saying no – she just thought she was going out for tacos with a couple colleagues. It was all very awkward.

    Reply ↓
  32. Juicebox Hero*

    In my headcanon, both candidates in #1 turn down the job at the same time – after the CEO has paid for the meal.

    Reply ↓
    1. Juicebox Hero*

      Oh, and the next day, LW and the entire C suite says “I told you so!” without repercussions because I love a happy ending.

      Reply ↓
    2. Phony Genius*

      Actually, I think they do run the risk of both candidates declining before the meal. Maybe raising that possibility to the CEO will change their mind.

      Reply ↓
    3. Dinwar*

      I had an interview that went that way. He turned me down–and wrote an email recommending me to the company I got hired for. I felt bad for the guy, until he pointed out that he got a really good steak dinner out of it at the company’s expense.

      I’ve also been the person paying for the meal for a candidate that rejected the job. Which was fair enough–it wasn’t what they were looking for. It happens, and the person we hired ended up being a really good fit; last I heard the interviewee was happy in the job they went with. So we all won.

      The average CEO salary in the USA is $85k, which is significantly less than I make; the big-money CEOs like Musk and Bezos are only 1-2% of CEOs, if that. Most corporations earn less than $40 million in revenue annually and have less than 100 employees (I’ve known several that had less than 10). And having a job offer rejected is part of doing business. You make the best of it, and sometimes that’s making sure that however the interview goes, you got a good meal out of it, at the company’s expense.

      Reply ↓
    4. Nightengale*

      And then the candidates start talking about their respective current jobs

      And candidate A realizes they would be happier working at workplace B
      and candidate B realizes they would be happier working at workplace A

      and they arrange to job-switch. . .

      Reply ↓
  33. Nightengale*

    Eating lunch together with other candidates is really common for medical school, residency and fellowship interviews. They typically bring in a group of candidates for an information session, tour and meal. Each candidate does typically have 1-2 individual interviews during the day as well. The lunch was usually with current students/residents/fellows rather than the high up decision makers.

    I don’t think medical interviewing practices are all that great but the group lunch is probably less of a big deal than if it were down to 2 clear finalists for an executive position, where I think it is terrible. Also what if they already know and hate each other? What if one of the candidates knows the current boss of the other and calls them to say “did you know so and so is trying to leave?”

    Actually one of my closest professional friends now is someone I met at a group fellowship interview. He got that position. I didn’t. We sort of saw each other peripherally at national meetings for probably about a decade and then started working together on initiatives a few years ago.

    Reply ↓
    1. Paint N Drip*

      I was thinking reading through the comments that there is a big networking-adjacent benefit to this process, you’re bound to get an idea of your local cohort and hopefully connect with them a bit (maybe make a new friend)

      Reply ↓
  34. Bilateralrope*

    #1

    One thing that worries me here is that if either candidate has any dietary restrictions, the dinner could reveal them. Including any that might come from a candidates religion and/or health issues.

    Reply ↓
  35. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

    I think it’d be hilarious if the two candidates from LW1’s letter realized what was going on, negotiated with each other, and colluded to raise their salary requests by 20% in tandem.

    Reply ↓
  36. Jules the 3rd*

    LW3: I just started a new job that was a huge change in September 24, so I feel you! What I did for the first two months was to send my boss an email two or three times / week with a list of what I’ve done, what I planned to work on, and what I needed his help with. It included:
    * Onboarding tasks that everyone has to do (eg benefits sign-up, company education),
    * Tasks that were unique to my general job position (eg software acquisition, system access),
    * Tasks that were specific to me (eg a project or documentation).

    I bolded anything that I needed his help with, like “Get added to meetings” . He later said it was very helpful in keeping track of what I was doing and what he could assign.

    We did also sit in-office for the first two weeks, both of us, and that was *HUGELY* helpful. If you are close enough to co-work with anyone even one day a week, it’s good for getting oriented.

    Reply ↓
    2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      Those are great ideas! With a busy manager, it can make a lot of sense to be more proactive about keeping her in the loop and giving opportunities for it to come to light if your understanding of how to prioritize things is not the same as hers.

      Reply ↓
  37. Dinwar*

    #3: Even if the transfer is a lateral move–from Role X in Company Y to Role X in Company Z–it’s naturally going to feel overwhelming. You spent years building a network, learning the processes, procedures, and people, and building a reputation, all of which make the role easier. The end-point of the last job isn’t just the job; it’s the cumulative payoff for the thousands of hours you put into the job earlier.

    Any new job is going to have none of that. Even if it’s a lateral move, you still lack the network, you still are learning new protocols and procedures, an you’re still building your reputation. So you’ve gone from a relatively streamlined process to square one.

    It’s natural to compare the two. I mean, they’re pretty close temporally, and our brains evaluate what’s happening now based on what’s happened in the past–with the immediate past being what we consider “normal”. But in this case, it’s an error. You can’t compare starting a new job with how things were when you had spent years in an old job; they are two different skillsets!

    There are two bits of actionable advice that I’ve used when I’ve felt overwhelmed in a new job:

    First, actively seek feedback on what you can do better. But do it properly. You don’t want to go up to everyone you meet and say “What can I do better in this role?” I prefer “What can I do to make things easier for you next time?” This shows that you’re trying to help, and it lets you take ownership of the changes to your process–it’s not just you responding to the new environment, but you taking action. And that helps you feel more in control. (As an aside, also consider the fact that you are an expert with fresh eyes on New Company’s processes–you may see opportunities for improvement within your sphere of influence.)

    Second, show that you’re actively learning. I keep a notebook with me in meetings, and jot down notes for things I can improve (as well as a bunch of other stuff). This helps you remember things, or have a reference if you forget. It also shows people that you’re making an effort to learn how things are done, and most people are fundamentally good; they’ll give you more leeway if they know you’re making an effort.

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  38. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

    Re: #1, in my past career as a journalist, I interviewed for an editor role at a smallish newspaper with a small group that included one of the writers in the department. Later, I found out that writer got the job. I was a little salty that my competition for the role was interviewing me, and also that I didn’t know he was a candidate at the time.

    We also went out for lunch, so I suppose I also did a version of what your CEO wants. I’m less salty about that because the lunch was very good.

    Reply ↓
  39. CommanderBanana*

    LW#1, what is your CEO planning to do, hope the candidates go after each other with the steak knives and hire whoever is left standing by dessert? I hope both candidates decline.

    Reply ↓
  40. Alan*

    #3, this is super common! I think sometimes we get to a point in one job where we feel so capable, so adept, that we think we can do everything, and then we switch to something else and find out that’s not true. That’s certainly happened to me. What I’ve also discovered though is that even when I think I’m just horrible at something new, other people aren’t seeing me that way. So give yourself a little grace and definitely a lot more time. 2.5 weeks is nothing.

    Reply ↓
  41. gwenjones*

    Am I right to think it’s odd that LW4’s org is making them interview for a role after they did it for two and half YEARS? I mean, they must know by now whether they’d do a good job in the spot. But maybe this is more common than I realize…

    Reply ↓
    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      The only circumstances where I’ve heard of it is when an organization has to perform layoffs and has no idea whom to label “expendable.”

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Some organizations get really weird about titles and positions. Big and old places get really bureaucratic, legacy from rigid union rules, etc. Often it’s because they are paralyzed by the possibility of ever having to formally demote someone.

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    3. Dr. Rebecca*

      Under the guise of fairness to outside candidates, a lot of companies re-interview internal candidates as well as a handful of outside ones. It’s nominally to ensure that the best candidate, wherever they’re currently placed, is the one that gets the job. In reality, there are two more likely outcomes: the internal candidate is the preferred one, based on already exemplary service, and the external candidates are basically being jerked around; or the internal candidate has the humiliating experience of failing to retain their current role.

      Reply ↓
    4. fhqwhgads*

      In my experience it’s more common in an acquisition to have to interview for your own job. That said, they did say it was a temp role, and now they’re interviewing to become permanent. Why this wasn’t an option, say, 1.5 years ago, who knows. But it’s not uncommon for a temporary person to be required to interview to become permanent. It is weird (other than for box checking bureaucratic reasons) to not already have enough info after 2+ years for whether this person is the one you want in the role or not.

      Reply ↓
  42. AMS*

    #3 – I felt like this when I first started my current job. Every single day the first few weeks I’d leave the office at 5 and think to myself, I am not going back in the morning! It was rough – I felt like I was trying to read ancient Greek having never learned it. But after 3-4 months I felt more confident, and frankly time can do a LOT – you may not feel like you are learning and understanding, but for me it was like I acquired knowledge by osmosis, just from frequent exposure to stuff that made no sense to me initially. I’ve been here 12 years now and wouldn’t leave unless something truly egregious happened at my job.

    Reply ↓
  44. Sometimes Maybe*

    I think its weird how many commentators are advising ways the OP should have gotten the manager to leave (like discussing bodily fluids) or how to avoid the manager listening to work conversations. If the OP and her supervisor were having a “heated” conversation I think that is exactly the kind on conversation the manager needs to be tuned into. The manager should have also just directly inserted herself into the conversation, not lurked around. But regardless of the managers eavesdropping , the OP should just assume any work related conversation her manager can be privy to.

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    1. fhqwhgads*

      Sure, but I think in that particular example, the manager made it especially weird. They asked her to join. She said no and that she was doing something she was obviously not doing, and conspicuously lingered. Of course she can be privy to any conversation, but the walking in and pretending to not want to be involved while obviously just hanging around to listen throws off the whole social contract.

      Reply ↓
      1. mlem*

        You know, that specific discussion — the manager declined to participate in the conversation but purposely remained — brings another possibility to mind: that someone (possibly the LW, possibly the supervisor) is suspected or known to mistreat coworkers in some way, so the manager is purposely remaining present as a safety measure of some kind. *In that case*, the other cases of eavesdropping could be related, the manager finding ways to observe a staff member’s alleged abuse of others, especially if the target’s behavior tends to change when the manager is present.

        As presented by the LW, yeah, the lurking seems odd. But I do think it could be a matter of a skewed perspective on a manager trying to handle a problem staff member.

        Reply ↓
    2. CreepManagerLW*

      > ways the OP should have gotten the manager to leave (like discussing bodily fluids)

      Hilariously, we’re all about the bodily fluids in my workplace and nobody would have turned a hair.

      Reply ↓
  45. Saturday*

    LW3, honestly, I would be a surprised if someone didn’t feel a bit unsteady after only 2.5 weeks in a new job. You’re likely doing just fine!

    Reply ↓
  46. Lacey*

    LW3: Getting fired – especially after dealing with a toxic boss for a while, can be really destabilizing and it’s almost certainly a big factor in how nervous you feel.

    I was incredibly anxious at the first job I had after getting fired. And I was probably feeling that way for about a month before familiarity with the people and what I was doing made me feel at ease.

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  47. fhqwhgads*

    #1’s CEO thinks hiring works like The Bachelor.
    #3 I’ve felt like that 2 weeks in to every job I’ve ever had. By 3-6 months, I’m usually baffled by what my past self was worried about. Give yourself more time.

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  48. Box of Rain*

    LW3- I have a comparison for you that might seem weird, but if you have or like animals/pets, it might help. I always try to imagine other scenarios that aren’t directly connected to me (or to people in general, in this case) for perspective.

    When a dog is rescued from a shelter, even if they’re being adopted into an incredibly loving home inhabited by people knowledgeable about animal behavior, the dog still takes a long time to adjust. If they were a perfectly well-adapted dog to begin with, we’re talking months to get comfortable. Now, if they were not in a great environment previously, maybe with humans who neglected or abused them, it’s even longer.

    I’d venture a guess you are the second kind of dog based on the description of your previous job.

    If someone told me they were worried because their dog of 2-3 weeks was feeling anxious, I’d tell them what others have said better than I could in the comments. It may take a little while to undo things and feel comfortable, but even if you were the first kind of dogs, we are still talking MONTHS to get your footing. <3

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  49. LW3*

    Hi everyone, LW3 here!

    Thank you Alison for the reality check and everyone for their kind words—it has been really helpful to read through that I’m not alone & this is normal. The rational part of my brain knows that I shouldn’t be expected to know everything at the end of week 3, but the anxiety-trauma part of my brain is essentially just saying this: AHHHFLRGRLHSKLGBV!!!! I think I’ll re-read some of these comments every time I’m feeling low, and I really do need to look into a therapist to help me work through these feelings.

    I think one thing that has been such a mindfuck with my last job + firing is, prior to this experience, I have *always* trusted my instincts and it has worked out well for me. At this last job, I knew pretty quickly into my relationship with my new boss that things weren’t great, but I shut off that voice because 1. this was my “dream job” at my “dream company” and 2. I thought my (stellar) work would speak for itself and all of her crazy wouldn’t override my work. I was very wrong! And that ended with me worrying if I was going to lose my apartment or my car because I didn’t have any income.

    I’m also learning that I don’t think I love fully remote positions and would appreciate 1-3 days in the office to connect with coworkers. Plus, I’m not really connecting with the products themselves, and I’ve always previously felt very close to the brand/product story. Maybe these things will change in time as I learn more, we’ll see.

    Again, thanks all for the support! I’ll keep checking back today and will be saving some of these comments for when I feel overwhelmed :)

    Reply ↓
    1. Juicebox Hero*

      As a fellow owner of a trauma/anxiety jerkbrain, I can confirm that therapy will be a gamechanger. You can’t excise that part of your brain, but you can learn to tell it “Yes, that is a thing. Now shut up.”

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    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      If I can offer another perspective: I have always wanted to feel out of my depth in a new job. If I can pick everything up right away, I’m going to be bored and looking to leave in 6 months. Not even knowing where to go to get what you need and having to kind of flail around for at least 3 months is a good sign that you’re learning new things.

      Until you can get a therapist, you can try talking to your anxiety. “Thanks, Anxiety, I know you’re just trying to protect me, but this is a different job with a different boss and you’re not helping right now. Please go away.”

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    3. Lily Potter*

      Your letter is a shining example of one of my huge criticisms of work-from-home. People who love WFH say things like “I’m more productive at home when no one’s bugging me all day.” That’s great for the experienced employee who’s being left alone, but what about the newbies who need guidance? They can’t just casually walk over to someone, ask a quick question, have that question morph into another question, which morphs into a conversation about something unrelated but highly valuable to the job experience. They can a) email/Slack a co-worker to ask the question (in which case they’ll get the answer to THAT question and THAT question only – no chit-chat morphing into other subjects) OR b) they can “bug” their boss or co-worker by calling them, likely interrupting their boss’ or co-workers’ focused WFH, and newbies don’t want to be that pain-in-the-butt that’s always calling on the phone. It makes it hard for newbies to really get integrated into a company.

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  50. Daisy114*

    #2 – In agreement with a lot of the advice and comments. Question RE capital though: I was surprised to see speaking up to the boss in this situation described as something that would need A TON of capital. It seems like that’s a pretty reasonable response to the situation. Is it just because the boss is presenting some otherwise odd behavior, and in a more functional environment, this would just be a normal request? Or is my understanding of what uses capital way off? (If the latter, dang, I use a lot of capital on a regular basis, whoops.)

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  51. Jane*

    LW 2 – I wonder what Alison’s advice would be for pushing back against the write up. That’s the worst part of all. It doesn’t sound like you were rude at all, just that your manager hated being called out.

    LW 3- Any chance your confidence is simply shaken by your toxic former boss? I bet you just need to recalibrate in a normal environment.

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    1. Leenie*

      Regarding the second letter, that’s what I thought at first, too. But some comments above clarified that LW was written up for being disrespectful to the supervisor that she was having the “heated” conversation with, not to the eavesdropping manager.

      That clarification really changed my perspective on the letter. Because my first read was that the eavesdropper was on an ego trip. But the clarification makes me wonder if the LW really was out of line during the heated conversation, but the manager/eavesdropper just didn’t intervene in the moment because she didn’t want to undermine the supervisor’s authority. It’s also possible that both things are true – the LW isn’t comporting herself well, and truly was disrespectful to the supervisor, and the eavesdropper/manager is handling the situation badly/has a weird management style.

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      1. CreepManagerLW*

        > the LW isn’t comporting herself well, and truly was disrespectful to the supervisor, and the eavesdropper/manager is handling the situation badly/has a weird management style.

        Happy to accept that my side of things were not great. But the creepiness of the manager pretending she wasn’t listening, then my finding my disrespectful words written out verbatim in an email from HR, is why I wrote to AAM.

        Reply ↓
  52. Greg*

    LW1: Your boss wouldn’t happen to be Logan Roy, would it? All I’ll say is that if you’re ever at a work function and you hear the phrase “Boar on the Floor”, run, don’t walk, and submit your resignation immediately

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  53. Addison DeWitt*

    “I think this would make the candidates question our culture and if they even want the role.”

    In which case it’s refreshingly honest. Hopefully they both take the appropriate lesson from it.

    Reply ↓
  54. Despachito*

    I wonder why having both candidates have dinner at the same time with the CEO would be a bad idea in general?

    Of course here it WOULD be bad because of the “little competition” remark. What does the CEO expect, candidates wrestling in the mud for the position?

    I would assume in a normal situation going and behaving just normal. If the other person tries to stab me in the back, and the CEO picks them, then bullet dodged I suppose?

    Reply ↓

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