mentee was fired for using a vulgar term, asking candidates which position in a band they’d choose, and more

by Alison Green on March 25, 2025

It’s five answers to five questions. Here we go…

1. My mentee was fired for using a vulgar term

I work in a regulated industry and there are specific education and license requirements to work here. My company has a mentorship program for those who are new to the industry. I am one of those with the highest non-management title at my company, and my manager encouraged me sign up for the program. I was assigned an entry-level employee from my company, “Wendy.”

I thought things were going well. Wendy was bright and on the ball. But Wendy was let go from her job and I’m wondering if I should have done more to advocate for her. I think this was a misunderstanding. Wendy had (to me) expressed her admiration for one of the managers at our company. This manager, “Caitlin,” is several levels above my own manager and is well-known in our industry. The misunderstanding happened over something Wendy said that was meant to be a compliment, but Caitlin felt it was an insult. Wendy said Caitlin was “serving C-word” (not abbreviated when she said it). She meant this as a compliment. (I’m almost 50, and I am not on social media so I have never heard this saying but apparently it is supposed to be complimentary).

Caitlin didn’t see it that way. She thought Wendy was insulting her. Caitlin felt Wendy was calling her a name to other people, clients, and online when she found out Wendy had been saying it. (Wendy never used the phrase in front of me.) I understand both sides. I completely understand why Caitlin thought it was an insult. I also see Wendy’s point of view and have never known her to be malicious. In fact, Wendy has always shown the opposite. My question isn’t about who was right, but whether I should have done more to advocate for Wendy. I feel guilty for not pushing back to my manager when Wendy was let go over this. I feel like I could have spoken up about this being a misunderstanding and how Wendy was bright, did good work, and was nice to everyone around her — basically how out of character it would be for Wendy to insult anyone, especially someone she admired. No one blames me for what happened and I was asked to participate in the mentorship program again. But I am afraid I did a disservice by not pushing back on Wendy being let go, and I’m afraid of making the same mistake again. What do you think? I would appreciate hearing what you think.

First, for people who don’t know the expression, it basically means “unapologetically feminine and powerfully badass.” It is intended to be complimentary — and it very much would not sound that way to anyone who didn’t know the meaning.

Anyway, this isn’t on you. You really weren’t in a position to intervene; mentors don’t typically have that power (unless they have significant influence and authority in general, but that would be something that existed independently of their mentor role). Yes, you could have explained where Wendy was coming from, but I imagine Wendy did that herself anyway. The issue is that she displayed pretty terrible judgment! It would be one thing for her to have said that about Caitlin once, but saying it repeatedly was just tremendously bad judgment in a work context, where lots of people won’t know the meaning of a very vulgar and insulting-sounding slang phrase. Her intentions matter, but the outcome matters too, and the outcome in this case was that she was going around using a wildly vulgar phrase about a well-known woman in your industry without contemplating that it might be misunderstood or otherwise become an issue. I wouldn’t have fired her for it (to me it’s a coaching moment, not a firing one) but I’m also not surprised that someone did.

There was no real room for you to do anything differently. If you’d heard Wendy use the phrase, you could have corrected her, but you didn’t. Your job as a mentor is to support your mentee’s growth, give advice, and be a sounding board, but the role isn’t that of a manager or a mediator. You were well-positioned to be a sort of character witness, yes, but I’m not sure it would have mattered in this case. This was Wendy’s mistake, not yours.

2. Interview question: which position in a band would you choose?

I was driving around listening to Crosby, Stills, Nash, and sometimes Young and started pondering a theoretical interview question: if given a choice, which member would you choose to be? I realize far too few people know that band so I started pondering a different question: assuming you would play any position, which position in a band would you choose (lead singer, lead guitar, bass, or drums)? The idea is that question could potentially give somebody an idea of just how confident in themselves a person is. A person who picks drums is someone who can keep a project moving and is reliable but is not necessarily out front leading, for example.

I am not in any danger of conducting interviews any time soon, but since I spend quite a lot of my working day on the road, I think of things like this. I’m curious what you think!

Well … it could be something to ponder outside of a work setting, but I would recommend against it as an interview question! Too many people don’t know enough about music to know how to even begin thinking about which position they’d choose. And even if they do have a well-informed answer, it won’t tell you the kinds of things you need to learn to make a good hire. You don’t want to ask candidates questions just for the sake of asking questions, or because a question seems fun — you want to get really clear on what’s needed to excel in that position and then ask questions specifically designed to get at those things. Unless you are putting together a new prefab boy band, this question won’t do that.

A boring answer to a fun question, sorry.

3. I think my manager wants me to be a different person

I am a middle school teacher. I recently started at a new school with a very corporate culture.

I received an employee evaluation from my principal. Evaluations from principals are pretty normal, but this was a very lengthy evaluation with a lot of corporate jargon, which I’m not used to. Reading the evaluation made me feel like the principal dislikes me personally and wants me to change my personality. One of the things it said was that I “did not contribute to a collegial environment.” This might just mean that she doesn’t think I speak up enough at meetings, since she mentioned that when we met to discuss the evaluation, but the language makes it sound like people find me actively unpleasant. I don’t know what I could have done to make people feel this way.

I asked a friend who works in the corporate world what she thought, and she said not to ask for clarification and not to disagree — she said all they want to hear in response to these evaluations is “yes, I’ll do that.”

It’s true that I’m not very talkative or bubbly, but I don’t think I’m unpleasant. I resent being expected to pretend to be someone I’m not. This has me feeling like they don’t really want me here and I should leave this school and possibly education altogether. Am I misreading this?

Whoa, wait — that’s a big leap that isn’t warranted by what’s happened.

Your friend’s advice was bad and you should disregard it. No good manager just wants to hear “yes, I’ll do that” in response to feedback if you don’t understand what it means. They want you to implement the feedback, yes — but you can’t do that if you don’t understand it, and in that case you need to ask questions so that you do. Ideally you’d go back to your principal, say you’re taking the feedback seriously, and ask for more information so you can make sure you’re both on the same page. Ask for more specifics about what she’s asking you to do differently. You can’t evaluate the feedback without that.

After learning more, if you still think you’re being asked to change your entire personality, you can think about whether it’s a role you want to stay in. But there’s no way to assess this without getting more information — and jumping to possibly leaving the entire field over one person’s unclear feedback would be recklessly premature.

4. Interviewer wants me to tell them my current salary

During an initial job interview, the interviewer disclosed that they were originally looking for someone more junior than my experience, but they were reconsidering the experience needed to be successful in the role and believed that it may need to be a more senior position. Fast forward multiple interviews — I’ve asked for the salary range they would pay for the role, and the HR manager says they don’t know and that the team has not discussed it. They would like me to disclose my salary.

I am hesitant to share because my cash requirements would differ based on the equity package and its structure, and I don’t think this can be adequately explained with a simple number.

I likely have one more interview before we get to an offer. In this scenario, is there any advantage to me being a first mover and disclosing my salary range with the caveat that it’s flexible based on equity package?

There’s no reason you need to disclose your salary. Instead, you should tell them the range you’re looking for — the range that would make you seriously consider leaving your current job for this one, along with whatever caveats you have about the structure of the equity package. That’s the part that’s relevant to them, not what you’re making now.

5. I was fired for something my boss said was OK to do

I asked my boss if it was okay to drive a company vehicle home. He said it was okay. His boss told him to write me up and fire me, so he did. Is this legal? Also, should my boss had been fired as well for telling me that I was allowed to? What can I do? Is suing the company a possibility? If I do sue, would I win, or would I just be losing more money and wasting time?

It’s not illegal to fire you for an unfair reason (and this definitely sounds unfair). Most employees in the U.S. are at-will, meaning that you can be fired for any reason at all, as long as it’s not based on illegal discrimination (i.e., firing you because of your race, gender, religion, disability, or other protected class) or retaliation for engaging in legally protected conduct (like firing you for making a good faith complaint of sexual harassment or discrimination). There are two exceptions to this: (1) if you have a contract, which most U.S. workers don’t, or (2) if your company has an employee manual that commits to always using specific disciplinary procedures before firing someone; if it does, they’re usually obligated to follow those procedures first. But aside from that, it’s generally legal to fire someone for any reason, even if the reason is unfair or illogical.

People often hear the term “wrongful termination” and assume it means that there’s legal recourse if you were fired for a wrong or unfair reason, but it really just means that you were fired for one of the illegal reasons above.

However, you can file for unemployment, and if you explain you were fired for doing something your manager specifically gave you permission to do, your chances of getting benefits are good. I’m sorry this happened.

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{ 846 comments }

{ 846 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. JustaThought*

    I feel like LW1 should be more informed if going to serve as mentor going forward. Felt like lots of waffling and ‘whatever could I do’ going on in letter that made me very uncomfortable.

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    1. nnn*

      Huh, I thought the opposite–that LW was giving themselves too much responsibility for fixing a situation that wasn’t in their scope to fix.

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      2. Laminar Flow*

        Same. I also didn’t know the definition to C+ until now.

        Additionally, I can’t imagine using Urban Dictionary type slang with a highly respected person who I have just met. Maybe if they drop an equally slangy term, I would feel comfortable, but I generally err on the side of formality in these situations.

        Like Alison said, this shows bad judgement. I also agree that it’s a coaching moment, and not a firing moment.

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        1. TassieTiger*

          Your user name! Do you do compounding and would you be open to chat in this weeks Friday open thread?

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          1. ThatGirl*

            Not to digress too much but I work for a plumbing manufacturer and laminar flow makes me think of our bottle filling stations.

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          2. LaminarFlow*

            LOL and thank you! My name is misleading – I am a lowly tech worker (and laminar flow enthusiast, apparently!) and I am only familiar with “compounding” in terms of making tiny changes to something over time to increase overall efficiency!

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        2. Ally McBeal*

          I think you mean “the definition of ‘serving c—‘”? Surely you already knew what c–t meant. The term has been appropriated by the same TikTok idiots who recommend dressing like a “corporate siren,” aka people who’ve never worked a single day in an office.

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          1. Nodramalama*

            Well to be fair, like most tik tok culture it’s been appropriated from Queer, usually Black culture

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            2. Lily Rowan*

              Like most slang/lots of “youth culture” for the past several decades. “Cool” came out of black jazz clubs in the 1930s or 40s.

              Just saying, this is not a tik tok phenomenon.

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              1. Kevin Sours*

                I stumbled across a reference to “Cool” being used in the modern slang sense in a diary entry by a Union soldier at the siege of Vicksburg.

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        3. MarginallyGoodBacon*

          I only know of the term “serving C-word” or any phrasing to complement someone by saying they’re “serving XYZ” from popularized slang from queer culture. Mostly from the show Ru Paul Drag Race and adjacent media. I don’t know how much or how little it’s actually used outside of media and social media, but it’s never came across as something you’d use in a professional business setting anyway. Unless your job is in those spaces where they’d know what the terminology means.

          So agreed bad judgement to use it even though it’s meant to be complementary.

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          1. Eurovision Fan*

            Oh! I now get the reference in Malta’s Eurovisison entry — had no idea what the phrase meant before.

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            1. sarahkka*

              Malta was of course saying tongue in cheek that they weren’t talking about C-word, they were “serving kant”, which means singing in Maltese.

              And still EBU made them take the word out of the song. If it was way too crude for the Eurovision Song Contest where almost anything goes every year, it’s no wonder it’s too crude for almost every workplace :)

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          2. Dust Bunny*

            I have never heard this phrase before now.

            I know we’re going to get some debate about how bad it is, but in the US it’s vulgar enough that even if you intended it as a compliment it wouldn’t go over well in a lot of workplaces (mine included). It’s easy enough to give a compliment that doesn’t use it.

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            1. Gayle Smith*

              I hadn’t either, but here’s the thing. While it is a mistake that cost that mentee, the reality is that many people new to professional environments don’t know that some words/slang shouldn’t be used in professional settings. Especially people who grew up without a lot of interaction with dominant culture folks or professionals. I actually did but there was a lot of workplace etiquette and cultural habits that I didn’t know when I started out and was blessed with having mentors who did show me the ropes and helped me navigate around any faux pas I unintentionally made. While no mentor is obligated to do so, those who get it, are a blessing. And we would have better, more diverse workplaces for it.

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              1. MigraineMonth*

                If the employee had said the phrase to LW, that would have been a great teaching moment.

                Unfortunately, the employee didn’t say the phrase to her mentor, she said it around other people (repeatedly!), and those people decided to fire instead of coach. If the LW had been the employee’s manager, maybe they could have intervened, but an employee’s mentor doesn’t have actual power in that situation.

                LW, you did what you could, but unfortunately your mentee had really, really bad judgement (assuming this is the US, using the c-word at work is *very* out of touch with professional norms) and there wasn’t anything you could have done.

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                1. The Petson from the Resume*

                  I think the fact Wendy did not say it to her mentor (the LW) may possibly mean she was saying it only to peers she assumed would understand.

                  But it was not work appropriate.

              2. spiffi*

                Whenever I hear people saying something like this – that people new to professional environments don’t know how to behave – I am so confused?

                Did they not go to school? If you wouldn’t have said it to your teacher/professor/principal – don’t say it to your boss?

                Did they go to super laid back elementary and high schools where you didn’t show any respect to adults?

                It’s so weird to me – that anyone would walk into their first job and *not* start out with being polite and respectful and watch and see how other people interact? Doesn’t seem like you would need someone to explicitly tell you how to act?

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                1. RunShaker*

                  Alison has addressed this before, unfortunately, I don’t recall which letters. But not all of us have had the privilege of being exposed to professional norms or other “polite” behavior you are referencing. This affects more people of minority status. Many young people that haven’t been exposed are out there trying to navigate a new environment and I think that’s part of the reason why Alison advised it’s more of a coachable moment. I’m white female and I even struggled in my late teen years at times. My parents weren’t the best when it came to teaching professional norms.

                2. Kevin Sours*

                  “Polite and respectful” are culturally dependent, not universal norms. It’s easy enough to come out of one subculture into a corporate culture with very different ideas of respectful and get blindsided. Especially when people not only don’t see a need to teach people about the differences but actively denigrate the idea that there might be a need.

                3. Eukomos*

                  I went to a very nice public high school and there were kids there who STRUGGLED with code switching between formal and informal speech, no matter how many times the teachers tried to catch it and get them to stop swearing. And they were lucky to get sent to the district magnet school, I’m sure plenty of kids back in their home neighborhoods didn’t have teachers who could spend that kind of time trying to help them.

                  And yes, they were minorities and were probably coming from cultures where formal speech was something different, or not something their parents modeled much. They weren’t trying to be difficult, and I don’t think their parents were bad parents, school just seemed to be the only place anyone asked them to practice this particular skill. I’m sure some of them were still tripping up occasionally by the time they got to the workplace.

          3. Lemons*

            There are still MANY spaces where the c-word is the worst thing you can call a woman (American perspective), and it’s not a new workplace thing to avoid referencing genitalia either. It would be extremely easy for someone not familiar with the slang to interpret the phrase as “ACTING like a c—t” or “IS a c—t” which is a great way to get yourself fired. Wendy was a bonehead about this; hopefully this is a good ‘don’t bring your whole self to work’ teaching moment for her.

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            1. Susannah*

              Exactly.
              I don’t know how this very offensive and vulgar word got appropriated into someone’s idea of a “compliment.” But it’s a very offensive term, and you’d have to be pretty clueless not to know that.
              It isn’t about “privilege” or some secret society of people who speak a certain way. Nor is it racist or homophobic to expect people not to use a vulgar word that in the US, at least, is an extremely offensive term to describe a woman.
              Imagine if someone at the office used the n-word to describe a Black colleague, on the theory that rappers use it in their songs?
              I thinking firing Wendy was an overreaction, but wow, does she have awful judgment.

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              1. MarginallyGoodBacon*

                It’s used in Queer/LGBT plus spaces as a positive compliment usually that the person is giving a strong and confident energy or vibe. On the same level as saying someone Boss B*. I referenced it in comment elsewhere but mainstream media, specifically Ru Paul Drag Race, has popularized the term so people are hearing it outside the spaces it’s normally heard and used in. And on Ru Paul Drag Race they added an extra level to make it a positive term by making it an acronym for Charisma, Uniqueness, Nerve, and Talent.

                Young people not knowledgeable about things and consuming this media don’t realize the C-word is bad. I’d even go because it’s not treated to be tip-toed around like the N-Word so there’s less discussions around that specific slang term. It’s still not regarded as good but I can see how someone might never know it’s not something to say until someone tells them or they get a reality check in real time.

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              2. Pixel*

                It’s not being appropriated, it’s being reclaimed. The idea is that female genitalia shouldn’t be an insult, it should symbolize power. It’s a big thing in the queer community where we often challenge and subvert the dominant social views on what gender “should” be.

                It really isn’t appropriate in most work settings, though, and it can be easily offensive instead of empowering if used about someone unfamiliar with the phrase (like in this instance).

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        4. umami*

          Same! I have never heard that phrase, and I feel like Wendy didn’t just use the term on multiple occasions, but double-downed when being corrected about it. That’s the main reason I would think it elevated to firing. If someone insists on doing something, or pushes back on the correction because they don’t agree with it, that is problematic behavior. LW didn’t need to intervene and likely doesn’t have all the information anyway.

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          1. Baunilha*

            My understanding is that Wendy not only said it more than once, but also did it in front of clients. That’s really, really bad judgement.
            But also, if she did say it multiple times, did no one coach her about it? Assuming her manager heard Wendy say it, they were the ones who should’ve talked to her about it and maybe push back on the termination.

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            1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

              The groups LW mentioned were “clients and online,” which aren’t really groups in a position (or with any obligation) to mentor. That’s part of the extremely poor judgment.

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          2. Barbara Manatee*

            Exactly! I misjudged my audience recently when I referred to a very stylish, competent coworker as a “bad bitch.” Fortunately I wasn’t disciplined or fired (the people I was talking to were more midwesternly confused) BUT it made me recalibrate what slang is appropriate in what setting.

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            1. Endangered Love*

              You are the one for meeeeee, sent from up above, you are the one I love
              (Barbara, oh Barbara!)

              Sorry for hijacking but your username started it haha. Thanks for the earworm

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          3. Susannah*

            Yeah – if she was corrected on it and KEPT DOING IT, I’d wonder what else she’d do to embarrass the company.

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        5. Presea*

          C–t isn’t just slang though, it’s one of the most vulgar words in many vernaculars of English, particularly US American English. Weirdly, it seems to be more ‘kinda vulgar but not that bad’ in places like Australia. So unless Wendy was from a region where it’s extremely less vulgar than it is in the region where she’s working, I’d say it still shows questionable-at-best judgement for her to decide to use it in a professional setting, at all, period, even in a complimentary way. (I still also agree that this was a coaching moment instead of a firing moment unless there was more to this situation, and honestly I don’t think the word deserves to be treated as the intense vulgarity bomb that it is)

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          1. Nodramalama*

            Its not weird that it’s not as offensive in Australia it’s just different. Many things are less offensive in Australia than they are in America.

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            1. MigraineMonth*

              In the opposite direction, there are also a lot of curse words from the commonwealth that Americans seem to think are quaint and thus not that offensive. When the Harry Potter books first got popular, we had ten-year-olds who weren’t allowed to say “shit” or “ass” calling each other arseholes and bloody wankers.

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              1. 52girl*

                I don’t think Harry Potter even used arsehole or wanker, maybe “git” or “prat” or “Ron made a rude hand gesture” but I see what you’re saying.

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              2. Zephy*

                Different Englishes be Englishing differently. The most common American term for a small zippered pouch attached to a belt, worn either around the waist or slung across the chest, will make the average British person blush the first time they hear it. Americans are taken aback when a Brit asks them for a cigarette. Et cetera. But “c**t” hasn’t quite fallen off the euphemism treadmill yet and is still pretty offensive to most English-speaking ears – and the subversiveness is the point. “Serving c**t” and “c**ty” as a positively-intended descriptor are still not mainstream terms and there are ways to express the idea that “she is both feminine and powerful, not in spite of her femininity but because of it,” without running the risk that someone will think you’re calling your boss a rude name.

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          2. Nomic*

            That’s also generational though. As noted above, Ru Paul’s Drag Race and drag society in general have popularized the phrase.

            Remember there was a time not that long ago when “queer” was a very vulgar term, but gay culture fought to reclaim the term and now people proudly identify as “queer”.

            I don’t know if that’s what’s going on with this slang in general, or in this specific case, though it’s worth considering for both.

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            1. Teach*

              My job and stage of parenting have me surrounded by high school/college/new adult culture, and I can confirm that this is a compliment! Very RuPaul coded, very “Yasss, Queen.”
              There is also a phenomena of reclaiming words by in-groups; for example, youth culture hears a difference between the n-word with different ending sounds. The hard R at the end = slur. An -ah sound at the end = in group, not offensive term.
              In the case of the C word, it has been *so* vulgar in the mainstream American lingo *and* exclusively used against women, that the shock value of using it exuberantly and positively is considered powerful and confident.
              The above message is endorsed as accurate by my 23 year old offspring, who is a self-described queer icon, and also says most folks would know not to use that term around us olds who might not get it.

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          3. Nat20*

            Agreed that the level of shocking vulgarity it connotes in the US is overblown to me (as an American myself), but I know that others will be deeply offended even if I’m not, and Wendy should’ve too. Especially at work, and even as a compliment.

            Also it’s not just Australia; seems like it’s also far less offensive in the UK. Like you said, vulgar but not bad; seems like it’s basically on the same level as “a**hole”. I had a British friend once who had no idea how bad it was considered when he first moved here, and got into some (social, not professional) hot water a couple times using “c**t” jokingly/colloquially without thinking. But like Wendy, I do think those were learning moments, not friendship-ending (or fire-able) moments.

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            1. Sir Nose d'Voidoffunk*

              I always loved the viral tweet that I believe was intended to be British:

              MATE YOU’RE AN ABSOLUTE (C-WORD)
              AND A PROPER LEGEND

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          4. Beth*

            It’s not weird that a word is more vulgar to some people than others. Vulgarity is cultural.

            Speaking to within the US – some people definitely see it as a “never use this word” level insult. But that’s not universal. Looking specifically at the phrase “serving c***”, this comes out of the queer community (where we’re no strangers to reclaiming insults for our own positive use!), and we use it to praise strong, powerful femininity. It’s been popularized through the spread of queer culture into the mainstream–RuPaul kicked that off, but it’s not just drag fans that know and use it these days, it’s pretty widespread.

            I wouldn’t use it at work because I wouldn’t expect all of my coworkers to be familiar with it, and I’m old enough to know it was a super fraught word not that long ago. But it’s an understandable mistake for a new hire just out of school. OP couldn’t have done anything about it, but I feel bad for Wendy.

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        6. Emily Byrd Starr*

          I never heard the C word in this context either, and I also would have found it offensive. However, due to Wendy’s youth and inexperience, she probably thought that it was the equivalent of saying that Caitlin was “kicking ass” or “bad-ass;” that is, a phrase that uses a word that is usually offensive, but in this particular context, it’s not offensive, but a compliment. I wonder if our parents and grandparents ever got in trouble at work for using the word “ass” in those ways, because the older generations didn’t know it wasn’t offensive in that context. Maybe someday, “serving C” will be seen as inoffensive as “kicking ass.”

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          1. Susannah*

            Not to me. The second word is very, very specifically meant to degrade and diminish women. How Wendy didn’t get that is baffling.
            Also, Wendy doesn’t have the right to expect that everyone else must adopt her idea of a “compliment.” And being corrected on its – and continuing to do it? A bad omen…

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            1. Parakeet*

              It’s not “her idea of a ‘compliment’,” it’s an existing compliment from some specific communities that got mainstreamed by RuPaul’s mainstream prominence. I agree with everyone that she showed terrible judgment. Having been called the word in question myself a number of times (mostly either as a bike commuter dealing with drivers or an activist dealing with counterprotesters), I get what you are saying. She shouldn’t have said what she said. It was terribly oblivious at best. But let’s not act like she made up this phrase, or the idea that it’s supposed to be a compliment, herself.

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            2. ThisIshRightHere*

              I’ll tell you the God’s honest truth: I was grown before I heard the c word for the first time. Even in this letter, I had to pause for a beat to remember what the c- even stood for. I grew up (80s and 90s) and went to undergrad (early 2000s) in majority-Black inner city areas, and while I was exposed to plenty of swear words, that one just wasn’t used. I saw it online occasionally and realized it was meant to be an insult, but I had no concept of it being a more serious swear words than the others. For me, the strongest cuss word had always begun with F (potentially with a maternal prefix). The first human I heard say it was a Black queer fashion stylist on a reality show in the shocking compliment context. For me, it is very very conceivable that someone could be unaware of the degrading gendered history of the term.

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              1. Rebelx*

                Yeah I am a millennial and from the US and I recall that the “c-word” is one that I learned somewhat later than other swears (possibly late teens? I don’t remember exactly). When I did eventually learn of it, I learned that it was highly offensive, since in the US that was the mainstream interpretation of the word (and probably still is the most common interpretation, even though the “serving” expression is becoming increasingly widespread). But it’s definitely a word that I had rarely heard used “in the wild”. So I could definitely imagine a young person nowadays having only ever encountered this word in the “serving” context, and not being aware that (a) that particular expression is not yet widespread among everyone, especially older people, and (b) that many people would have a very severely negative interpretation of the c-word. I personally think firing her over this is a bit harsh (unless maybe there were additional concerns they had about Wendy that the LW was not privy to), and Wendy’s boss should have had a very serious discussion with her regarding being careful about the language one uses in a professional setting, and given her a chance to demonstrate that she has taken the lesson to heart.

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            3. Nodramalama*

              She didn’t make up the compliment. It IS a compliment. The fact that you haven’t heard the word in that context and don’t like it, doesn’t mean that its not a compliment.

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          2. 40 Years in the Hole*

            Thinking back to the Mary Tyler Moore episode (early 70s), when her landlady Phyllis was “reduced to making a damned pie” to reign in her philandering husband. My father was shocked – shocked I tell you – that “such language” was on tv, and stormed out of the living room.

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          3. Teacher, Here*

            I’ll fess up to having said something was “badass” in front of some high school students and watched their eyes get sooooo big.

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        7. TGIF*

          We need to stop using ridiculous language, like corporate speak and slang. Just talk like normal adults pleeeeeeeaaaaaaaaase.

          Reply ↓
              1. RobinR*

                Those 14 year olds are using language they learn from Black and queer communities, you’re not just excluding them by policing their language. You’re marking Black and queer people as “unprofessional” for using their cultural dialects.

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                1. Kt*

                  The Black and/or queer professionals I know are very conscious of what language they’re using and in what space, more so than most white straight professionals who do not know what code switching is. It’s not fair, but it is true.

                  Young people and people new to the workforce regardless of ethnicity, color, sexuality, gender expression have to create for themselves a professional presentation of self.

                2. Susannah*

                  Insulting women in the most crass and vulgar way we have in the English language isn’t defensible because of “culture.”
                  Professional environments are by definition different from casual ones. We all say things, share things, dress ourselves, in different ways around our friends, as opposed to what we do at work.

                3. Saturday*

                  In a workplace, they are unprofessional – along with a lot of other words and phrases from other culturally-specific dialects.

            2. RobinR*

              This, thank you!

              Language changes! Ask any linguist and they will tell you that it’s all constantly changing and shifting as cultures and people interact. I’m not surprised that a young, new-to-the-workforce person used language that’s out of line with professional norms, and fully agree it was a good coaching opportunity. Just like jeans were seen as unprofessional in basically office-based professions decades ago but are now totally normalized, professional language norms change and it’s the responsibility of managers to both understand and coach around that.

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          2. RobinR*

            Putting “slang” in the same category as corporate speak is a slippery slope to all kinds of exclusionary and bigoted policies. A lot of slang is based in Black and/or queer culture and gets incorporated into mainstream American English over time. It’s also most heavily used by young women, and is used to tone police all three groups (women, people of color esp Black people, and queer people) in corporate environments to reinforce whiteness/maleness as the norm.

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            1. Jackalope*

              So a number of other people have commented on this, but the c word is still an insult to women, and a very derogatory term at that. Are people trying to reclaim it? Good for them. But as a woman who has spent my whole life dealing with people insulting me for being a woman, I’m 0% interested in having someone call me terms that are originally insulting. And my desire as a woman (and a queer woman at that) not to be called by any slang that uses terms like this outweighs someone else’s right to use edgy slang, at least in reference to me.

              (Also, you’ve mentioned a few times that the phrase isn’t gendered, but many of the other people stating what it means have said that it’s an admiring way to being a fierce, feminine energy. So even if it’s used *about* people of all genders, it’s still using a highly insulting slang for female genitalia to describe something that’s considered “feminine”.)

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              1. Nodramalama*

                And I think that it’s misogynistic to say that a term referring to a woman’s anatomy is beyond the pale but dick and balls aren’t offensive at all.

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          3. MigraineMonth*

            I think corporate speak breaks down into two categories: terms of art (domain-specific terms) and obfuscating language. The first is absolutely critical for detailed technical discussion in any area; I agree that the latter could go jump in a lake. (An example of idiomatic language that doubtless started as slang.)

            Slang is amazingly multifaceted and I couldn’t possibly do it justice, but among other things it allows for group identification, political messaging, double-entendres, poetic and colorful language, language invention, and so many more things. It’s no coincidence that so much of our language has been invented by disempowered groups such as young women, black people, queer communities and particularly their overlaps; that’s where slang is created.

            Take the phrase in question. It’s a powerful political statement, reclaiming a slur targeted against women, it sounds like sex work but is presented as empowering rather than degrading, and if it comes from the drag scene of the 1930s and 40s it was coined by (likely black) queer AMAB individuals subverting gender expectations by dressing as women in a performance celebrating art and transgression.

            But sure. Let’s “talk like *normal* adults” and ignore all that.

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          4. Kevin Sours*

            We’d first need to come to a consensus on what language is ridiculous and what is not. Good luck with that.

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          5. Parakeet*

            Every generation, including adult generations, has slang. This has been true for centuries. Chaucer used slang. It just changes over time.

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        8. Observer*

          I also agree that it’s a coaching moment, and not a firing moment.

          Which makes me wonder how she responded when she was called on it. Because I would have expected that if she recognized what she had done wrong and promised to at least take down the ones she could, it would have ended differently.

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          1. Beth*

            It sounds to me like Caitlin took serious offense and wasn’t open to hearing that it wasn’t meant as an insult, and the company unsurprisingly sided with their senior professional over their new hire. I don’t think there’s any reason, based on the letter, to assume that Wendy doubled down or refused to apologize.

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      3. MK*

        I think she is giving herself responsibility for the wrong issue. If OP fell short in her mentor role at all, it’s that she failed to convey to her mentee what language it is appropriate to use in the workplace. I am not sure that is the case, because it would depend on how mentorship is supposed to work (is it work-specific, or is it a more general role), and also whether Wendy did exhibit similar behaviour I front of OP (I know she didn’t use this specific phrase, but I have a hard time believing someone who repeatedly used this description for a superior didn’t have any other tonal issues).

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        1. Pastor Petty Labelle*

          Definitely something to raise to future mentees. Not talking about Wendy as a cautionary tale, but realizing that mentees are new to workplace norms, of which language is one of them. So as part of helping the mentee learn about the difference between school and work life, they can bring up being careful about using slang. Not to say slang is never appropriate, but just realizing that slang can be misunderstood so rather than use slang, the non-slang term might be preferable.

          For instance if Wendy had called the person a Bad$ss, that’s still slang, but better understood as a compliment.

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          1. Bubbly*

            True, young people definitely need guidance. I cringe to think of some of the things I did my first years in the workplace. But this particular phrase is so extreme that I think a lot of young people entering the workplace would probably be a little insulted if warning about language isn’t approached carefully. It’s a bit like the “don’t use on clothes while wearing” on an iron – it’s there because someone did it, but it’s also so obvious to most people that it would be insulting if someone actually thought you’d do it.

            TLDR: yeah youngsters need calibration, but you’ve got to balance guidance so it’s not so obvious as to be insulting.

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            1. wordswords*

              To some it’s extreme; to others, in this fixed phrase form, it’s no worse than a “hell yeah.” Which also might not be appropriate to use at work, depending on your workplace, but is the kind of mistake some people make without thinking before they learn to code-switch and get a sense for the work culture before using profanity or vulgarity. (I don’t use it, and it’s one of several phrases that make my eyebrows shoot up even in contexts where I encounter them in common parlance, but I’m well into middle age at this point. I see plenty of people to whom it’s enthusiastic slang rather than extreme, is my point.)

              I think in general for mentorship, it’s safer to err on the side of “I know you may already know this, but I want to make sure I say it, because I/we have encountered early career employees who didn’t.” But I don’t blame OP — it’s worth taking the mental note for the next time OP is in a mentorship position, sure, but sometimes you have to run into the problem before you realize it might be one.

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          2. Observer*

            but realizing that mentees are new to workplace norms, of which language is one of them. So as part of helping the mentee learn about the difference between school and work life, they can bring up being careful about using slang

            I think that this is a very useful point. LW, if these mentorships are structured for this, then I would definitely make sure to have there conversations.

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        2. Turquoisecow*

          Yeah the big issue here is that apparently no one taught Wendy how to code-switch and that phrases like that might be fine with friends but not in the workplace, especially with someone higher on the food chain than her. I know some women, especially outside the US, think of the C-word as empowering and thus I have no doubt Wendy *intended* it as a compliment, but that word is viscerally unpleasant to me (and many other people!) so while I might not insist on firing someone over it (unless she doubled down after being told why it was wrong), I would be upset by it.

          Teaching a mentee what sort of language is and isn’t appropriate in the workplace is a good sort of soft skill for a mentor to teach, so I’d definitely advise OP to think about that for future mentees. Some may not need this coaching, but some people don’t automatically realize that certain words and phrases and even cadence is more appropriate with some people than others.

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          1. Turquoisecow*

            That said, I also find it hard to believe that Wendy wouldn’t have realized that the C word is so polarizing and offensive to some that using it with a supervisor might come across differently than she intended.

            I don’t like the b-word but I’d someone called me a badass b** it would still not ping alarm bells as much as the c word.

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            1. Butterfly Counter*

              Right. I also think it’s not so easy as one generation simply reclaiming a word that has hurt so many other (in this case) women before. It feels icky.

              For one, someone doesn’t know another person’s experience or issue with being called a bad word. Someone young just coming in and tossing it around could bring up very negative feelings.

              Second, as has been described above, it’s appropriating AAVE, especially queer AAVE speech, which isn’t a good look.

              Third, it’s obviously slang. Until you know a professional environment, don’t introduce slang into that environment for just these reasons. It makes you look young and, as the kids say, like you’re not “reading the room.”

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              1. HQetc*

                Agreed on having an awareness that different folks, particularly of different generations, may have really different experiences of a word. I was listening to a podcast (You’re Dead To Me) where a historian who teaches queer history was talking about tensions in using the word “queer.” On one hand, it is really useful in a historical context because it provides a way to talk about people who don’t fit into modern frameworks like gay or trans because those were not terms that were used in their time, so they wouldn’t necessarily have thought about their identities that way (or we don’t know how they identified and we don’t want to assign identities to them). But n the other, there are still a lot of people who had the word used against them as a slur and who have really traumatic associations with it. The fact that it has been fairly effectively reclaimed doesn’t mean those people’s experiences are not still very valid and deserving of respect and care. We can’t just say “well I don’t mean it like that.” Which is not to say we can’t reclaim words, but it’s possible this wasn’t seen just an issue of unprofessionalism. I understand Wendy didn’t mean it like that, but Caitlin may very well have received it as a slur.

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            2. sulky-anne*

              I actually think there is a huge cultural divide here. The c word is SO commonly used in queer contexts (especially in drag culture) that I wouldn’t be surprised if Wendy didn’t realize that it can still be super offensive to people outside that context.

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              1. JSPA*

                I’m not surprised it’s in her lexicon. I am surprised that she didn’t realize it was (along with not-very-offensive words like poopy, pee-pee, pie-hole, butt-floss for thong underwear, camel-toe, tucking, nip-slip etc) in the part of her lexicon that is too body part or body-function based to be broadly office-appropriate.

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              2. The Petson from the Resume*

                I’m an old queer. A lesbian. My friends do not call each other the C word or say we’re “Serving C-word.”

                I had never heard that this might be a compliment but if you that about me I would not view it as such.

                So we may be out of touch, but this is not yet even universal queer culture.

                LW should not go to bat for Wendy. Windy screwed up and told multiple people about Caitlin serving C-word and it got back to Caitlin who was understandably offended by appearing to be called one of the most vulgar slurs you can call a woman in the US.

                It’s either very poor judgement or very bad luck that Wendy was so clueless to make that mistake.

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            3. Lisa*

              Regardless of whether it’s inherently offensive “c-” is NSFW. I wouldn’t be offended by being called a “baddass b-” but I definitely wouldn’t say it at work!

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          2. I own one tenacious plant*

            I totally agree with you. I’m a similar age to LW1, I know the phrase and as I was reading the letter my reaction was – face palm- . What LW can do is reach out and volunteer to be a reference. Wendy learned a very hard lesson. Poor Wendy.

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          3. a bright young reporter with a point of view*

            Yeah, I hate it, and I hate it when Billy says it on The Boys, and I hate it when Aussies say it, and I hate it when people use it in a positive way. It’s not just “ooh, naughty word!” It is, in any dialect, an insult specifically derived from its gendered nature. It is specifically demeaning because of its literal definition. I’ve heard people say stuff like “oh I call men that all the time,” but like, right. It’s an insult because you’re calling them women. You cannot avoid the implication that women are lesser when you use it. Even if people mean it as a reclamation, you can’t “reclaim” something if you don’t know what it’s saying in the first place.

            I find it very surprising that Wendy did not know, or acted like she did not know, that it is an incredibly fraught term. I agree it’s a coaching moment, but yeesh.

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            1. bleh*

              Thank you a bright young reporter! It’s so frustrating to have young women say “but I’m not offended by it.” That is because you are trying to be cool and make nice with the dominant group. It just is an insult based on gender, and no amount of reclamation will change that. Language changes but origins and the trace remain.

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              1. AngryOctopus*

                That is not true at all. You are 100% allowed to feel that way, but you can’t tell someone “you only say that word because you are trying to be cool” when in fact, that’s not what is happening, because language does change and words do get reclaimed.

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            2. Flor*

              “It’s an insult because you’re calling them women.”

              I disagree; it’s no more calling a person a woman than calling someone a dick is calling them a man. It’s a term for a part of female anatomy and was historically the common term for women’s genitalia, until some men decided that the Latin word for sheath was a better term. Women are far more than just our reproductive organs, after all.

              There are plenty of insults derived from men’s reproductive organs, as well as words like “arse”. They’re insults and vulgar because they refer to body parts that are considered private.

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            3. Mentally Spicy*

              In the UK and Aus/NZ it’s very much not a gendered word. In these countries if you say it to a man you’re not “calling him a woman”. It exists on its own terms as a general insult devoid of gendered baggage. It can even be a term of endearment!

              (But also note that, contrary to popular belief, it is by no means an “acceptable” word to say and it doesn’t get thrown around anywhere near as much as some Americans seem to think.)

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              1. Wendy Darling*

                I think compared to the US — where some people (see: this comments section) consider it a linguistic third rail for which the only acceptable response is total ostracism from polite company, possibly forever — having the status of f-bomb-level insult counts as “acceptable”.

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          4. Pay no attention...*

            Yes, even calling someone a bad$ss would be problematic in a lot of offices even if it were completely understood to be a compliment; so it’s more than just using slang that can be misunderstood, it’s about choosing appropriate words and that’s how it could have or should have been explained to Wendy not “slang can be misunderstood.” Even the OP keeps describing this incident as a misunderstanding about the meaning of the words rather than the words themselves should not have been used. I would definitely get strongly coached in my office—maybe even a PIP if I kept doing it—if I went around telling my coworkers they are “$ucking killing it” or “this project is a cluster$uck” because that’s just inappropriate and unprofessional.

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            1. PegS*

              Totally agree. You really need to know your audience before using those terms in a company setting. This was a costly lesson for Wendy, but it’s an overall useful lesson in general for professional communications in general — not just for this particular phrase.

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        3. Leenie*

          Well, the LW said that Wendy never used the term in front of her, so it’s hard to hold LW responsible for not anticipating that she’d start throwing the C-word around to all and sundry. That said, if Wendy was using a ton of slang and very-online-speak, LW could have advised caution with that. So maybe that’s the lesson to take forward for next time. But I don’t think there’s evidence that LW actually did anything wrong here.

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        4. Beth*

          I think you might be thinking of this phrase as rarer/more intense/generally more ‘off’ than it is! It’s definitely one I’d avoid at work, but that’s mostly because it’s strongly generational (as slang can be). I wouldn’t expect someone a decade older than me to know it, and I would expect someone who doesn’t know it to be taken aback by it.

          With someone my age (mid 30s) or younger, though, I’d expect most people to take it in the same vein as “badass” or “boss bitch.” It’s not professional language, sure, but it’s a common and familiar phrase that’s known to be complimentary. I wouldn’t expect someone using it to have broader tonal issues beyond maybe using a lot of slang.

          Since OP didn’t hear Wendy use the phrase, it seems likely to me that there weren’t any signs of a problem for OP to notice and mentor Wendy on. It’s unfortunate that apparently no one who heard Wendy use the phrase told her that it’s not work appropriate, and also that Caitlin/the company wasn’t willing to let Wendy take correction and have another chance, but there’s not much OP could have done about it.

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          1. MK*

            Going by this thread alone, it’s obvious that your own perception of how “off” this phrase is, isn’t universal. But even you admit it’s not professional language; I don’t think it’s a stretch to think that someone who repeatedly used a non-professional phrase to describe a superior, apparently in front of clients and online, didn’t use professional language in general. Frankly, it would be even more weird if Wendy’s only ever deviation from professional language was to do this.

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          2. Midwest Manager*

            Wow, generational is right. I’m 60, have been a manager for 30 yrs. I have never ever heard this phrase used anywhere, and if one of my direct reports used the C word in ANY context in the workplace, I would be dumbstruck and (at least in my office culture) it would be an immediate written discipline, and likely a “one more time= you’re fired” offense. I get it, I’m 60, I’m white, I’m a cis-woman, but I cannot wrap my head around anyone not knowing that word is absolutely 1000% NSFW. (Interestingly, my first husband was Scots and when he first came to the US, didn’t realize how aggressive and inciting the word was considered in teh US, since in the UK it’s casually used to mean friend/mate. One casual use in a bar one night led to him bar fight, a black eye, and a swift recalibration on word usage vs culture.

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            1. Indigo a la mode*

              As a counterpoint, I’m 32 (white, cis woman) and “serving c—” is definitely not in my lexicon. Maybe I’ve heard it on Drag Race (maybe?), but 1) the Drag Race peeps say a LOT of offensive things in silly ways for shock and comedy value, and 2) even if I did think I could pull off saying it without feeling appropriative, I certainly wouldn’t do it at work. I probably would have understood the mentee’s intent based on context clues after a sec, and I like the intent, but my kneejerk reaction would have been shock.

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      4. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        Particularly because her protege never said it in front of her. There was no chance for input.

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    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      I think the waffling is because they don’t have power, but they thought they should have somehow come up with some to “fix” the situation. Also… they wrote Alison to be better informed, so they’ve already met your requirement.

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      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, I’d *much* prefer a mentor who was unsure and asked for advice than one who was confidently wrong.

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    3. biobotb*

      Informed about what? They wrote in to AAM to figure out if there was something they could have done; why does the LW seeking advice make you uncomfortable?

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  2. Bruce*

    LW2: For CSNY, weren’t all four of them male-acoustic-guitar-playing-singer-songwriters with a back-up band? I guess you could pick which one is coolest to you, I’d probably pick Stephen Stills since he had a sailboat and wrote Southern Cross :-)

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      1. Too Fat for Work Pants*

        Stage tech sounds kinda cool for being in the action and solving problems rapidly but staying out of the limelight

        Reply ↓
      2. The OG Sleepless*

        My daughter is a sound engineer so I’d love to hear her answer to this. She might just take it literally and say “none? I’ll just do the mixing.”

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      4. HayHayHay*

        I’d be selling merch. Keeping track of the inventory, making the band money, don’t have to touch an instrument.

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      5. Lenora Rose*

        My answer would depend if I have to go with the music ability I have or if I can magically acquire enough skill to cope.

        The first: Backing vocals and harmony, and if you give me a couple of months of lead time and a lot of sheet music or lyrics and chords, I could try and cope on mandolin.

        Magically get the skill: backing vocals and harmony (but better), mandolin (but with all the bits I haven’t learned yet) and cello. (One of my favourite bands swapped the bass player role in their music with a cellist and it’s excellent. Their first cellist, who also plays mandolin — and guitar, harmonica and piano — also has a solo career I’m enjoying mightily. However, I’d have more the stage presence of the next cellist, who mostly sits back and does his job.)

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      6. AnonInCanada*

        My response would be, “producer.” Because I make the band sound good and I don’t have to be in the spotlight. Win-win!

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    2. GammaGirl1908*

      I passed by a social media post recently saying the ideal level of famous is to be anyone in Maroon 5 who isn’t Adam Levine >D

      Whatever your feelings about Maroon 5 or Adam Levine, the fact is that the rest of them are rich, are talented musicians, get to travel the world, get to play the Super Bowl, and yet can still go to Starbucks and not get accosted.

      So I guess that’s my answer: the least famous member of a fairly famous band.

      I also quibble with this as an interview question because every part of a band is important. Percussion serves a purpose. Melody serves a purpose. Vocals serve a purpose. The drummer isn’t in front, but is holding down the rhythm. The bass guitarist isn’t in front, but is holding down the structure. Et cetera. I’m not even a musician and I know this. I dislike this question because every place is critical, but the wrong person would make the wrong assumption if the answer isn’t lead vocals.

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      1. bamcheeks*

        Ha, I feel like the opposite— my answer is definitely lead singer and I feel like that’s going to be read as “I take all the credit for doing the least work”.

        Reply ↓
        1. D*

          “Willing to be the one person people will notice fastest if swapped out and take the brunt of everyone’s opinion even if you had nothing to do with the choice, and everyone will complain about your role even if they dislike something else.”

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            1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

              Right, so even if you happen to know enough about band positions to form an opinion (which many – maybe most – people don’t), two rational people could form completely different opinions.
              This is almost “what kind of tree would you be” level of bad interview question.

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              1. Reba*

                ITA. (I realize we are having fun here in the comments)
                The equation of band positions to work personality traits just doesn’t go anywhere. Like, the best you could hope for is something trite like OP came up with, like a drummer keeps things going steadily. Incidentally this is not the reputation drummers have, lol.

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                1. Margaret Cavendish*

                  Exactly. What if you say drums because you aspire to the lifestyle of Tommy Lee? I mean, he’s a great musician, but would you want him on your team in corporate accounting?

              2. MusicWithRocksIn*

                Yes – this is just too influenced by what people think is ‘cool’ and not on any idea of how a band actually works. Like, since I was young, I thought it would be cool to play drums, but I have zero idea if I would actually be good at it, it’s just a thing that stuck in my head. I also hate the sound of my own voice when recorded and think i’m a lousy singer, so wouldn’t want to be a lead singer of any kind. That’s just random stuff about me that has no influence in how I work or am to work with. There is too much stuff mixed up in our individual opinions about music for it to be a helpful source of information. It sounds like someone is going to use their collage phycology class to make some wild opinions about what I’d be like to work with that wouldn’t come remotely close to ‘once someone tried to hit me with a guitar so I wouldn’t want to play one’.

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            2. MassMatt*

              Which is one of the many reasons this is a terrible interview question!

              I get the feeling that the LW wants to extrapolate all sorts of assumptions about someone’s choice, as people do with “personality tests” but with even less basis, if that’s possible.

              The comment about your choice saying something about your level of confidence and someone choosing drums could “drive a project forward” is pretty silly.

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          2. bamcheeks*

            Right, I’m fine with all of that. I just feel like it’s cheating because for me, all that seems easier and way more fun than learning to play an instrument properly. :)

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            1. Professional Staff*

              Uh, speaking as a voice teacher–singers still need to learn how to play an instrument properly. (If for no other reason than so you don’t hurt yourself doing it.)

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              1. bamcheeks*

                Ahh sorry, my point is not coming across here, because I haven’t included the information that I can already sing well and play a couple of instruments badly. :) Basically, being a lead singer would play to my strengths, the things I enjoy doing and find easy. I do technically recognise those things as strengths that not everyone can do, but I also tend to think that I’m cheating by just doing the “easy” stuff and admire people doing what I consider real work, aka the stuff that is hard for me.

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                1. Professional Staff*

                  Ah, that makes more sense, thanks for the clarification :-) I do encounter people who assume that singing rock/pop music is just something that comes naturally and not a skill that needs to be learned & practiced, so I probably overreacted a bit!

                2. iglwif*

                  This!

                  I mean I don’t know enough about pop music to step into a lead singer role in a rock band or something, but I could certainly manage it if the band were, say, doing folk music or klezmer. I already sing regularly at a pretty demanding level, and although solo singing is very much not my preference, I’ve had enough training to do it when I need to. Just give me some sheet music (or some recordings and some lyrics) and a few days to learn it, and I’m there. I will not be an Andrews Sister, but I will be in tune and you will understand ALL the words.

                  Whereas getting back to a “good enough” level on piano or B-flat clarinet or treble recorder, never mind learning a whole new instrument, is absolutely more effort than I am willing to put in at this middle-aged point in my life.

        2. Mentally Spicy*

          Having played in lots of bands my definition of lead singer is “always late, never helps, doesn’t even own their own microphone and wouldn’t know how to plug it in even if they did.” I’m immensely bitter!

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        3. Yorick*

          My answer would be singer because I don’t play any of those instruments, not because I want to be in front and more famous, etc. That’s what’s wrong with this as an interview question.

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          1. MigraineMonth*

            Whereas many people would choose anything *but* singer because they know they can’t carry a tune in a bucket, and at least you can tune a guitar beforehand and it stays on the same note.

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        4. Auntie-Sis*

          I mean… I’d say singer because I’m a trained singer.

          If the interviewer is asking for funsies, their interpretation of my answer will have zero relevance to how I perform in an office environment. But FTR it’s 20 years of training, disciplined practice and keeping cool under pressure/having to improvise live on stage to solve problems, if the person interviewing me doesn’t know what’s involved in becoming a competent musician, they should not ask me that question.

          And if they do understand what goes into trained musicianship, the answer is still irrelevant, because it’s the same for any of the positions. Except bass player. Never hire a bass player.

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      2. Storm in a teacup*

        Had a discussion with friends a few months ago and we all concluded being anyone in Coldplay who’s not Chris Martin!

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          1. Lenora Rose*

            Yes, there’s the other part of trying to figure it out; you pick a band you like as the basis for your idea, and someone else will immediately pop up and say this. (I only know like 3 Coldplay songs, though I like all of them.)

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      3. Audrey Puffins*

        The comedian Nish Kumar has a nice bit about the ideal job being the drummer in Coldplay, because you have the same level of artistic and financial success as everyone else in the band, and the same level of anonymity as everyone else in the band who isn’t Chris Martin, but crucially the drummer gets all these benefits while also getting to sit down

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        1. iglwif*

          Oh that is a very good point. (I don’t know that I’ve ever heard or seen Coldplay, but I have seen a lot of other bands where even the keyboard player has to stand up the whole time, so that is def a benefit mostly unique to drummers.)

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        2. former band girlfriend*

          I had a boyfriend decades ago who was a drummer in a band. Even though he sat the entire time, he was the only one dripping with sweat at the end of the show.

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          2. Grenelda Thurber*

            Indeed. I don’t really think about drumming being a “sitting down” thing. It’s more like having your butt supported while coordinating the individual operation of both arms and both legs.

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      4. Turquoisecow*

        I saw someone once answer the question of fame with Bernie Taupin, who is a long time songwriter most often partnered with Elton John. He’s likely quite well off financially after having written many many hits, but most people wouldn’t recognize him on the street, so he can live life like a normal rich person and go to parties with the stars and then duck into Starbucks on the way home and no one bats an eye.

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      5. Not Tom, Just Petty*

        Reading the drummer opinion in the letter, my mind went straight to Levon Helm, then Phil Collins, Mick Fleetwood, Ringo Starr, Peter Rivera. It’s not that clear cut. Personality and talent change a seemingly simple dynamic.

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      6. Spreadsheet Queen*

        Technically, a lead singer can also play an instrument, and many do. Heck, the lead singer for Cowboy Mouth IS THE DRUMMER! (I just showed my age). I’d pick “lead singer”, not because I’m some supremely confident being, but because I love to sing and always have. Or maybe harmony/backup singer would be fun. I did take guitar lessons for a few years way back, but I just couldn’t picture getting good enough to do what I wanted to be able to do with it (plus I was working way too many hours and it got too hard to schedule) so I quit.

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        1. Indigo a la mode*

          Right? As a millennial who became familiar with Phil Collins through the Tarzan soundtrack, I always forget he was the DRUMMER for Genesis!

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    3. amoeba*

      I mean, my answer would be “well, I don’t play drums or guitar or bass, I can sing OK, so it would have to be the lead singer, I guess? Although I do play the piano, so if you need a keyboarder, I’m in!”

      Basically, growing up with musicians would make me take that way to literally, lol.

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      1. Bass In The Rhythm*

        I would also take the question literally and say drums because I’ve played orchestral percussion for the past decade. I’d assume it was a light hearted, getting to know you question in order to ascertain my baseline style for the rest of the interview. It would never occur to me that answering drums would mean the interviewer assumed I was unsuitable for leadership positions.

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        1. Verity Kindle*

          I had a similar reaction! If an interviewer asked me this question they’d learn an awful lot about my musical background and how I hear and engage with music, but absolutely nothing about my working style. I expect a lot of people would reply similarly and talk about what instruments or musicians they like, not about how they function in a work team.

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          1. Tau*

            And someone’s musical background is often going to be highly influenced by their cultural and socioeconomic background – like, someone saying “keyboard!” because they had piano lessons as a kid tells you nothing about their working style, but it tells you much more about their class background. So this is just a terrible question in all sorts of ways.

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            1. amoeba*

              Eh, it might – but I, for once, started playing the piano when I was 3 or so, and not because I was middle class but because my dad was a (pretty poor) piano teacher. So, not that that makes the question better, but the correlation with class is definitely not perfect, either!

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        2. Snow Globe*

          Regarding drums, I would think just the opposite of what the LW assumed. The drummer is the leader in terms of getting everyone started with the right timing. The drummer keeps the entire band working together and in sync. Which is why these types of questions are terrible in interviews; you can draw really wrong conclusions based on someone’s answer.

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          1. holdonloosely*

            A few years ago, I edited a book about being a recording engineer (focused on rock) and one of the most interesting things I learned was how noticeably a song can change if you switch out the drummer. I’m a pretty big music fan, and I ostensibly understood that drummers have their own styles the same way singers and guitarists do, but it hadn’t really clicked that those styles could be so audibly different.

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        4. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          Oh, man. I should have waited to reply under yours. Above I started a list of bands pretty much lead by the drummer. It’s not such a rare (earth) thing.

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        5. I own one tenacious plant*

          But it also depends on your leadership style. Keeping everyone together and moving in the same direction is also leadership, as is being in the front and taking the brunt of first impressions etc. Also, if you are the drummer you can see everyone and what they are doing. So yeah, I disagree that drummer equals not a leader. I would totally be part of the crew though. No people don’t see me but I don’t show up there will be problems!

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      2. Rogue Slime Mold*

        As someone with no musical talent, I would just be at a loss. I could play triangle? But if the job isn’t being in a band because the band is a metaphor, then people’s lack of knowledge about both the literal thing in the metaphor, and how it’s being applied as a metaphor, is going to make this… as much of a stew as any other “What trilobite would you be?” interview question.

        (Like asking about the color of the chairs in reception to measure attention to detail, in a job that has nothing to do with interior design.)

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        1. Margaret Cavendish*

          Yeah, I have no musical talent, and also no musical knowledge – I had a long conversation with a friend recently where it became obvious that I don’t know the difference between lead guitar and lead bass. So the metaphor would be entirely lost on me, and I can’t imagine the interviewer would get anything useful out of my answer!

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        2. Observer*

          as much of a stew as any other “What trilobite would you be?” interview question.

          Yeah, if people actually need to look up information in order to be able to answer your question, it tells you nothing.

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      3. bleh*

        Learning guitar late in life, and I will never be good enough for even rhythm background player. I still love it though.

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      4. Baunilha*

        I would also take it literally, so I’d just say drums and leave it at that, not realizing that the interviewer would have a deeper and metaphorical interpretation of my answer.

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      5. a trans person*

        Yeah, my answer would be, “it depends on what instrument I was interested in, because that’s the reason I would be joining a band.” If I played something now then I’d say that. I don’t think I *could* give an answer like the OP is thinking of.

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        1. a trans person*

          ETA: I would probably walk out of the interview if pressed. Sorry, OP. This kind of question in a work context just makes me hate everybody who doesn’t see how stupid and useless it is.

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    4. Never the Twain*

      I’d love to be able to say (but sadly couldn’t) ‘Actually, I’m already principal conductor of the Chicago Philharmonic, so I don’t feel I could really take on any further roles.’

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      1. Richard Hershberger*

        I was going to go with concert master. The pay is good, the work is steady, and you don’t age into being an embarrassment, playing to ever-smaller venues. Also, the concert master’s duties (supposedly) include leaping onto the podium to take over if the conductor drops dead. How cool is that?

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        1. MigraineMonth*

          Look, if the conductor suddenly needs to go to the bathroom or faints, I guess having a back-up on hand for an instantaneous switchover could be important. I do think that it’s okay to interrupt the concert for an actual death, though. At least long enough to call in paramedics, move the body and for the concert master to ascend the podium in a dignified manner.

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        2. AngryOctopus*

          Plus if you’re concertmaster and you have a string break, you immediately swap violins with the player next to you and they fix the string for you! (source: saw this happen during a concert).

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    6. HannahS*

      I like–and studied–classical music and I don’t actually know what I’d answer. I’ve never heard of that band, and TBH while I can name some bands my partner likes, I don’t know much about them. I guess I’d take it literally? I have the best chance of being a lead singer, but I’m very much not a front-and-center, leadership-seeking person, and I’m no fan of attention. So the question wouldn’t tell you much about what kind of worker I am.

      In my experience while there are stereotypes about different kinds of classical musicians, they’re about as valid as a high school description (e.g. jocks are all like THIS, computer nerds are all like THAT.) At a professional level, everyone’s a professional.

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    7. The OG Sleepless*

      I would probably pick the bass guitarist (and I’m not sure which member of CSNY played what instrument, I’m a little fuzzy on 70s music) only because I’m fascinated with the underrated bass guitar. You can barely hear it (with the exception of U2; their bass lines are lovely and I will play them over and over), but take it away and nothing will sound the same. I do end up being the underrated steady hand in a lot of organizations, though I can’t say I really love that role.

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      1. Really?*

        Actually, all four played guitar on stage. Stephen Stills was a multi instrumentalist, and played several parts on the albums,but on stage usually lead guitar. Neil Young ditto, but tended to be a free spirit and was in and out. Crosby and Nash also both played piano, I think, but not usually on stage. They had backing musicians that played in their concerts and on the albums. One of the major features their music is known for is incredible harmonies…

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      2. Chirpy*

        Bass is such an underrated instrument. It’s so important for driving the music, and yet, everyone thinks bassists are some kind of passive followers because, I don’t know, maybe they’re thinking George Harrison wasn’t as flashy as John Lennon and Paul McCartney? Or as goofy as Ringo?

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      3. Nightengale*

        ok but on the other hand they are too contemporary for me – I know more folk, Big Band, the golden age of Broadway and some classical. I made a list one time of the songs I knew. I got to nearly 1000, and only about 10% were written in my lifetime, mostly showtunes. So not knowing this group could be knowing only more contemporary stuff OR knowing only even older stuff.

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    9. Cease and D6*

      Also, if we’re taking the band-office analogy seriously, CSNY are one of the most dysfunctional workplaces you could possibly come up with

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    10. Roy G. Biv*

      This is a question I could answer – being an enthusiastic music fan. I can also imagine many people being unable to answer it, because while they like music well enough, they know or care little about the parts of a band.

      Now if you asked them which position they would play on a baseball team, or basketball (being March Madness, everywhere, all the time, here in the US) they absolutely would have an answer/analogy. And I would be the one staring blankly … “Uh, the guy who does the thing and then, uh, makes the points.”

      Cute question, but probably not too useful

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    11. Turquoisecow*

      Yeah I love CSNY but their strength as a group is their harmony rather than one of them being a singer, one being a drummer, or whatever. Something like the Beatles might be a better example band since they’re more well known but also younger people might not be familiar with their public personalities.

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    12. TGIF*

      For the record I know exactly who Crosby Stills and Nash are and grew up loving them. As for position, I would say bass or drums because I like being the backbone, the driving force.

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    13. iglwif*

      I don’t know anything about this group except their name, but I do know that “band” and “musical group” can mean all sorts of things! If you asked me, specifically, what position I would play in a band, I would probably say “first chair second clarinet”, because the last time I was in a band (in high school, in the early 1990s), that’s what I played. (Second clarinet in a concert band or wind ensemble is like second violin in an orchestra, except that bands have third clarinets but orchestras have violas.) Then I would say, “I don’t play in bands anymore, but I still sing,” and tell them the (locally very recognizable) name of the choir I sing in.

      I would be quite puzzled by the question, but I love talking about music, so …

      I’m afraid it simply would not occur to me that the interviewer was asking a hypothetical question about a pop music group as some sort of personality quiz. Even if this were explained to me, I wouldn’t know the available positions to choose from — I know that most such bands have guitars and singers and a drum kit, but the number and type of guitars and singers varies, and some bands also have a keyboard player, and often (but not always!) the instrumentalists also sing, and often (but not always!) the singers sometimes play some kind of handheld percussion instrument, and some groups have other instruments (e.g., violin/fiddle, accordion, trumpet, sax, double bass, sitar, tabla … ) — so I fear the result of my attempt to answer would be a 20-minute dive down a rabbit hole of possibilities that would totally derail the interview and make the interviewer regret their life choices.

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    14. Another Folk DJ*

      I think this would be a fun icebreaker question for a retreat or casual meeting! Reading through this comment thread it is fun to see the different ways that everyone is interpreting it.

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  3. WS*

    “Not collegial” can mean anything from “rudely ignores other staff” to “doesn’t instantly offer to work hours and hours of unpaid overtime the moment the manager so much as thinks about needing it.” In “vocational” jobs like teaching and healthcare, it very often means the latter.

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    1. Artemesia*

      Or it could mean does not collaborate professionally which is how I would understand it since it isn’t so much about friendship as about colleagueship. Of course what the principal actually meant isn’t clear without asking for examples of what should be done differently.

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      1. Elsa*

        Eh, I know of some schools where “not collegial” could mean “doesn’t fit in with the in-crowd in the teachers room.” In my school it would mean “never agrees to sub (for pay) when another teacher is out”. Schools are weird places and there are so many possibilities.

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      2. displaythisname*

        I agree with Artemesia. You need more clarity, as this feedback was a bit vague. I disagree with commenters suggesting that this is useless corporate jargon or an unreasonable skill set; schools work best when teachers and school administrators support each other and collaborate effectively, and when people feel largely positive coming to work. It is desirable to work in a workplace where people are encouraged to be collegial with each other!

        For what it’s worth, early in my career I was a deeply passionate, hardworking, fairly effective teacher who also clashed with some of my colleagues. A few years later, I changed jobs and became a deeply passionate, hardworking, fairly effective NGO professional who also clashed with some of my colleagues. When I got feedback that I wasn’t sufficiently collegial, my first response was to feel defensive and assume I was largely in the right, as a lot of commenters seem to be suggesting. However, once I started to see the pattern in my interactions, I realized that this was really valuable feedback to me on how to improve my effectiveness as a team member and eventual team leader, as well as how to improve my relationships and enjoy work more. Today, I’m a much better professional and colleague as a result of self-reflection and work on this skill set, even though it was initially hard to hear the feedback.

        This sort of feedback (ideally with more specifics on what it means to be collegial in your setting) can be an incredibly valuable inflection point in a career, if you’re willing to listen to the details, reflect on whether there is truth to any of the points, and look for ways to grow as a colleague. Caveat that of course this is my experience and your manager may have been getting at something different; however, if your first instinct on hearing critical feedback is to think that you might need to leave the school and even the profession, it should be a flag to you that you may have a tendency to react strongly to critique, which may be related to any issues you could be having with your colleagues.

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      3. MigraineMonth*

        LW3, I think the most important thing is that when you ask for clarification and examples of what to do differently, you have to lead with curiosity. If you go in with a defensive attitude, and mentally dismiss each of their examples, you can’t actually hear what they’re saying. (And might get fired, like I did.)

        Start with curiosity, ask follow-up questions, make sure you understand what they want, and *don’t argue* (even when you really want to). *Then* sit with the feedback, evaluate it, bounce it off other people, and decide which parts of it are true/worthwhile and what changes you’re willing to make in response to it. Maybe it’s true that the principal wants a lot more extroversion (or overtime) than you’re willing to put out and you want to find another position, but make sure that’s what the feedback actually is first.

        Good luck!

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    2. Ellis Bell*

      It could mean literally anything, and whatever it is doesn’t seem to be important enough to spell out. But then, I’d leave over the use of jargon alone. I agree with WS that when schools start to talk about your teamwork, or social involvement, they’re usually angling for you to volunteer more, but at least most schools put that in plain English.

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      1. KateM*

        Yeah, I would say that that guy in our book club who never brought anything for coffee break and left his dirty cup on table after it was definitely not collegial.

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    4. Rebecca*

      I’ve worked in schools, and yeah, this can mean so many different things. I’ve been called ‘difficult to work with’ because I turned down a 6th weekly meeting or said no to the colleague who wanted to add another difficult complicated activity to a week that was already too full, and I’ve also worked with people who are not collegial because they are rude or not performing the minimum of their actual job duties. I have experienced more cliques and toxic competition in schools in the teacher’s lounge than when I was a student, and I’ve also worked in really great, professional schools.

      Without more information about the culture of the school, it’s impossible to know which this is, and asking for specific actionable details from the Principal is the only way to know which this is.

      Either way – I managed to work in schools where the principal wanted me to be bubbly and social and I wasn’t. Even if that does end up being the case, “have leave education altogether'” is a wild overreaction from a single vague piece of jargon-filled feedback.

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      1. Seth M.*

        I, too, feel I have been unfairly tarred with a similar brush. I have been a devoted member of the management team at my current employer, arranging for numerous team-building experiences for my staff, including a quite enjoyable event involving the production of freshly-prepared breakfast treats. I had been given no reason to suspect my managerial oversight of this team was of concern to our corporate governors until my own recent employee evaluation, where I was accused of availing myself of the large vocabulary I have curated for myself in addition to the misapplication of common office equipment. And this after I had personally overseen the near-completion of the very challenging “Cold Harbor” project!

        At any rate, I would encourage OP to seek further elucidation from this principal, lest they do something regrettable. In fact, to my chagrin, I am obliged to share a similar recent occurrence as illustration: I, under extreme stress and I dare say duress, encouraged my manager to “devour feculance”–a not-at-all-warranted reaction in spite of what had been a very stressful week’s work. Alas, I am hopeful my subsequent work with the Choreography and Merriment department will help me overcome this grievous error.

        I remain
        Yours sincerely,
        Seth M.

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    5. Hyaline*

      Yeah in my area it would be “is never around, doesn’t attend meetings regularly or participate in committees, doesn’t offer help, advice, or collaboration.” Such a widely vague phrase—LW really shouldn’t make assumptions without getting clarification!

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    6. Wombats and Tequila*

      I’m inclined to think that LW#3 should be looking at other schools, If their principal thinks that corporate culture is the bestbfit for middle schoolers, then that is the person who is in the wrong profession.

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      1. Strive to Excel*

        OP didn’t say corporate culture – they said that their review feels like it’s full of corporate jargon. If “does not contribute to collegial culture” is an example, I understand why they might be struggling but would want more context as to the whole review to know if it’s actually a jargon-fest or not. That could be the prelude to “needs to synergize energies for greater efficiencies” or “needs to commit to having specific blocks of time available for meetings with others”.

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        1. Hroethvitnir*

          OP said corporate culture in the first paragraph (please take this with a less admonishing tone than it has :/):

          I am a middle school teacher. I recently started at a new school with a very corporate culture.

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    7. Lisa*

      I once got peer feedback that I didn’t stay late and work extra time unless I was specifically asked to. It was meant to be constructive but I chose to take it as a compliment.

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    8. Momma Bear*

      I do think that before LW punts this career they need to ask the Principal to clarify. You can’t fix what you don’t understand. Sometimes you aren’t a good fit for a team, but sometimes it’s not that deep. There’s not getting along with your coworkers and then there’s not staying late when you had to rush home to a sick kid (or whatever). LW needs to know what that means to figure out next steps. I tend to go the , “Thank you for your feedback. I’m confused about…” route, rather than being full on defensive to start. See what the other person says.

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      1. Pomodoro Sauce*

        I was thinking the same!

        If this were the case, Alison’s advice would be perfect — getting the principal to explain the evaluation should determine whether this is a factor.

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  4. Teapot Connoisseuse*

    The thing about band roles is that it very much depends on the band. There are plenty of high-profile singing drummers and bass players. So all this question is likely to reveal is the candidate’s musical preferences/knowledge (personally, I’m a fan of the singing bassists, à la Lemmy and Phil Lynott).

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    1. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

      And there’s also Paul McCartney, surely the most famous singing bassist of all time! 8-D

      On the other hand, maybe ignore me, because I’m admittedly a little biased (okay, a lot biased, lol)! The Beatles were my all time favorite band, Paul was my favorite Beatle, and I love his post Beatles work, too, so yeah, feel free to ignore me. I just couldn’t read the words “singing bassist” without immediately thinking of Paul and couldn’t resist mentioning him. :-)

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      1. Allonge*

        But you are reinforcing an important point nonetheless: OP’s concept of who does what in a band is not going to be the same as everyone else’s because – even if we ignore people who don’t think about band roles – there are many, many different band setups. So it’s not true that drummer or bassist = background, shy, no confidence.

        OP, I think the issue with your question is that you think there are static types of people and their personalities will determine how they perform. But just as MBTI, horoscopes and whatever, this is way oversimplifying life.

        Someone who has a moderate preference for quiet background work can do amazing in a face-of-the company job that matchess what they need in other ways – e.g. they enjoy the subject matter, they like the occasional travel that comes with it, the planning and risk-taking attitude in the company works for them, there is still background work they need to do and the compensation is good. But that is like 20 additional factors in the setting, and you cannot measure all this on a single scale.

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        1. Anne of Green Gables*

          Yes, this sums up well my thoughts on the question. LW assumes that people they are interviewing will have the same assumptions about what each role in the band means in terms of leadership on a team, and the reality is that everyone will form their own assumptions that will differ wildly.

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      2. Seashell*

        If I were going to be in a band, I might have to be Linda McCartney in Wings. I kind of sing and play the piano, but if I’m married to the cute lead singer/band leader, I can’t get fired. ;-). Probably not the answer to give in a job interview though.

        I would put Sting up there as second most famous singing bassist.

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        1. GammaGirl1908*

          This reminded me of the episode of Gilmore Girls where Zack gets jealous because Brian wrote a song for Lane, and Zack has a tantrum at a record company showcase and ruins their big shot. “The only reason to have a tambourine is if it’s being played by a hot chick! No offense, Joel, but you’re not a hot chick.”

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      3. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        Being a Deep Purple fan (Roger Glover, Glenn Hughes) and a McCartney fan, the idea of a bassist who sings being anything but normal is kind of odd.

        LW2 does seem to disrespect dummers. Where would Deep Purple be without Ian Paice? Billy Joel was going nowhere before Liberty DeVitto. Think of Genesis without Phil Collins or the Eagles without Don Henley. Or the Electric Mayhem without Animal.

        The idea breaks down fast and hard as soon as one applies some context and reality to it. I guess Live and Let Die.

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        1. Christmas Carol*

          Don’t forget Mickey Dolenz of the Monkees as a singing drummer. But Davy Jones was such a sexy tambourine player.

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          2. Phlox*

            I would be most familiar with the members and roles of Rush. Not that there is any back ground member of a 3 man band, but the drummer (Neil Peart) was certainly not one. If any of them are, I’d almost have to say the guitarist (Alex Liefson) is, at least compared to the lead singer/ bassist (Geddy Lee)!

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        2. Lego Girl*

          The Foo Fighters without Dave Grohl (although he wasn’t the drummer as a Foo Fighter, so maybe a bad example).

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          1. Annie*

            And their drummer was fantastic, really high profile compared to the rest of the band (along with Grohl, of course) until his passing. But yeah, I couldn’t identify any of them in a lineup, or just in a list of names.

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    2. Your former password resetter*

      It’s the kind of fun gimmicky question that’s best reserved for online “which band member are you?” tests or breakroom banter. In an interview it’s going to be confusing and look like OP ran out of real questions to ask.

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      1. Crencestre*

        And, as Alison pointed out, it will exclude and annoy people (like me!) who don’t follow rock/pop music bands and who aren’t familiar with the roles played by the different band members. If I’d gotten an interview question like that, I’d have wondered why the interviewer was wasting their time and mine with gimmicky questions that had absolutely nothing to do with my ability to actually do the job.

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        1. Observer*

          And, as Alison pointed out, it will exclude and annoy people (like me!) who don’t follow rock/pop music bands and who aren’t familiar with the roles played by the different band members.

          Yeah. If I got that as a serious question from someone who might be my boss, or in a position of influence, that’s absolutely going into my negatives list. Because it speaks to a set of expectations and assumptions that can get pretty problematic quite quickly.

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      2. Annie*

        As long as you give the “reason” why you want to be a certain member I think it’d be okay, even if the answer isn’t true for all bands (like the Beatles), such as “the bassist, because she’s the backbone of the band but doesn’t get all the attention, so just can do her work without worrying about being the focus of the fans.”

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    3. Not Australian*

      Quick shout-out for John Lodge, another singing bassist: he’s definitely the one I’d want to be!

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    4. Tommy Lee*

      I mean, you don’t even have to sing to steal the spotlight! Pretty sure the first time a rotating/upside down drumkit got used it was all anyone talked about after the concert…

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    5. Snarky McSnarkerson*

      I totally went to marching band instead. I was thinking “first chair,” “second chair,” etc.

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        1. Selina Luna*

          They were 20 years ago, when I was in marching band. Though first chair was most often called Section Leader, that was also a very different task. The first chair in an orchestra isn’t also placed in charge of the rest of the other members of their instrument. I was usually first chair oboe, but I was never once section leader in marching band.

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    6. The Body Is Round*

      That was my thought. I don’t play any of those but if I had to pick up and learn one it would be bass. I love what it contributes to music and I bet it would feel nice in my hands.

      People who ask these sorts of questions and think “the answer they give will mean This about them” are not considering all the ways different people’s minds might interpret the question.

      (For what it’s worth, if there’s any position in the band I think of as critically important and also really difficult to get right, it’s drums.)

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    7. metadata minion*

      And plenty of people are into music that isn’t lead-guitar-bass-drums-singer bands! I am aware of that kind of music, and have happily listened to it when it comes up on the radio, but I have only a vague cultural-osmosis understanding of each person’s role in the band. If you want to ask me about classical orchestras, I’m much more fluent, and what I actually listen to is usually variations on “weird folk music, probably political”.

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      1. Great Frogs of Literature*

        If you come back to this, what do you like in weird folk music that is probably political?

        (I like Melrose Quartet’s Rudolph Variations, although more the other songs on that album than that particular one. And I like learning about the history of songs like “The Preacher and the Slave” or “Brother, Can You Spare A Dime?”)

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        1. Strive to Excel*

          Leslie Fish, definitely.

          She’s more of a filk-folk writer but her entire career is political commentary on various social movements.

          Reply ↓
      2. Corrupted User Name*

        I’m a fan of “weird folk, probably political”, yay!
        But I bleed synthpop and electronic music…so if you asked me this, I’d say “um, I’m the member of Kraftwerk who stands at the far right console!”

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    9. Beans*

      Yes. And there are more types of band members than listed here!

      I’d go for the literal – I’m a pianist, so, that. If the interviewer says no, you have to pick one of the four listed types, well, I sing and I can also play guitar, so either of those? But I’ve never played in A Band (except for French horn, classically), so the mapping of personality types into instruments doesn’t speak to me. I haven’t been embedded in popular band communities, so the culture and stereotypes don’t translate.

      Reply ↓
    10. Ace in the Hole*

      Depending on musical preferences/background, people might have completely different ideas of what a band even is. For example I’d answer either piccolo player or color guard.

      Reply ↓
    11. Pixel*

      And also… my ability/interest in taking the lead in a performance setting is completely different from my ability/interest in taking the lead in my actual field!

      Reply ↓
  5. Ginger Cat Lady*

    I am quite possibly the least musical person on the planet. I would have no clue how to answer that question about the band.
    And since I wouldn’t be looking for a job in the music industry, it would be utterly irrelevant.
    This is such a bad idea that it’s up there with “what kind of tree would you be?” and “If someone gave you an elephant you can’t sell or give away, what would you do with it?”
    No. Just no.

    Reply ↓
      1. learnedthehardway*

        Or “Make it into a tent with a periscope” – seriously bad question deserves a seriously bad answer…..

        Reply ↓
        1. KateM*

          Sell the ivory to pay those who make you a tent with periscope out of its skin and also for meat storage solution.

          Reply ↓
      2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Name it Shep and play fetch with it.

        But only if the position you’re interviewing for is Ruler of the Jungle.

        Reply ↓
      3. amoeba*

        I’d be so excited about having an elephant. They’d either find me really weird or be happy about my enthusiasm if I ever got that question!

        Reply ↓
        1. MusicWithRocksIn*

          But so expensive! Even feeding an normal elephant is a whole white elephant problem. I would get too caught up in the fact that I can’t get rid of it. Why can’t I get rid of it? Is there a law? Am I living in a society that forces pets on you? If so will the government forcing me to keep this elephant help me pay for the elephant? Tell me the rules!!!!

          Reply ↓
          1. Mentally Spicy*

            Hello fellow over-thinker! My response would be along those lines. Who gave me an elephant?Why did they give me an elephant? Why did I LET them give me an elephant?! What’s the reason I can’t sell it or give it away? Can I drive it somewhere deserted and abandon it? Can I eat it? Why am I in this bizarre situation?!

            I loathe hypothetical questions and especially the ones that come with ridiculous made up rules. “You must do X but you can’t do Y..” Why? Says who? What would be the consequences if I ignored the rules of this bizarre scenario?

            I hate that stuff. Luckily I’ve never been asked that sort of question in an interview. Either I would spend 20 minutes overthinking it from all angles or I’d immediately stand up and say “thanks but no thanks”.

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          2. Ace in the Hole*

            How much trouble will I get in for owning an unpermitted, endangered wild animal? If not, why can’t I get rid of the elephant? Who/what is forcing me to keep it? HOW are they forcing me to keep it? Can I report the person who “gave” me the elephant to the authorities? Or at least sue them for the upkeep of the elephant? Does permanently loaning it to a zoo count as giving it away if I technically remain the legal owner? Since I’m incapable of humanely caring for an elephant, can I euthanize the elephant? What about releasing it into the wild – with a fundraiser to get it back to an appropriate natural habitat?

            Reply ↓
        2. Allonge*

          Me too! My own elephant! Best day ever!

          I would keep it in a very elephant-friendly environment, with lots of other elephants. I am not giving it away, not selling it, it’s my elephant. In that forest or whatever, right next to the three dozen other elephants. But mine. Awww.

          Reply ↓
      4. niknik*

        I have neither the means nor the knowledge, let alone the skills to care for such an animal. I am an animal friend by all means, but giving an elephant to me would be just plain cruelty, really.

        Reply ↓
      5. Dinwar*

        “I would explore opportunities within the mammoth re-aliving space to donate the elephant, in part or in whole. I would also try to sell its genetic material to grow lab-grown meat and, if possible, lab-grown ivory.”

        Anyone disturbed by either option, or unaware of these activities, doesn’t know enough about my field to be interviewing me!

        (The lab-grown ivory thing would be an attempt to create an ethically-sourced ivory to destroy the market on wild stuff and thus limit poaching. There are a variety of such efforts in place, some of which have been more successful than others. I think the rhino horn effort has been the most successful.)

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        1. Allonge*

          Wait, it’s a dead elephant we are getting? Or can you do these things while the elephant is living its best life? (Maybe not the ‘donate in part’ part though)

          Reply ↓
          1. Dinwar*

            Depending on the technology used you can use a live elephant. In most cases it’d be preferred (live elephants produce cells constantly), and in the case of cloning a mammoth it’s required.

            Cloning methods for mammoths involve implanting a fetus with mammoth DNA into an elephant, as it’s the closest thing we have to a mammoth. Further, you need a certain amount of elephant DNA to fix the damage to mammoth DNA (“Jurassic Park” got that part right). The first bit is normal animal husbandry and requires the elephant be alive, the second is pretty standard genetics and can be done by drawing blood or other fluids while the animal is alive.

            Growing lab-grown meat can also be done while the elephant is alive. The DNA coding for muscles is in all cells, and can be spliced into various things to produce meat. You can also get stem cells from adult elephants, from a variety of sources (some more problematic than others, of course). Same with ivory–a tusk is just a tooth, and the genetic code for that is in the DNA of every cell, though obviously triggering that specific suite of genes is going to be the trick. But that’s all after the cells get into the petri dish; to get them there, you just need to do a routine blood draw, a pretty simple dental procedure, or the like. I think hair is also an option (the follicle, specifically). Bone marrow is good, but difficult and painful to get at; hair, blood tooth pulp, and the like can be obtained with relative ease and without undue risk to the animal. Any zoo would be equipped to do these.

            I know we’ve done partial cloning like this before. Scientists have cloned mammoth DNA related to blood, and discovered the antifreeze mammoths naturally produced to keep from freezing to death. And the technique for making lab-grown meat is pretty standardized at this point, it’s just too expensive to compete with farm-grown meat currently.

            The alternative is to breed the elephant and use the resulting fetal tissue to produce the genetic material necessary. Not a great option, and we’re definitely veering into mad scientist territory here, but it IS an option. I think certain cancer cells can also be used, as long as the altered DNA isn’t related to the part of the body you’re trying to deal with. And biopsies and removal of tumors are not merely possible on a living animal, but necessary medical procedures.

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    2. Artemesia*

      I had the same thought and I do know a lot about music. but to me it is the silly ‘what animal would you be?’ question.

      Reply ↓
      1. WoodswomanWrites*

        I’m now remembering when a colleague on our interview panel asked that specific question to candidates. Ugh. Thank goodness all the rest of the questions were specific to the role. The person we hired, who was amazing and stayed for many years, eventually shared with me how annoyed they were by that question.

        Reply ↓
        1. NotAnotherManager!*

          Not asking stupid questions like what animal or tree would you be is one of my requirements to be able to interview on our teams for exactly this reason – it doesn’t come off well to the candidate you most likely want to hire (nor does it tell you anything useful about the candidate’s qualifications for the types of jobs we have).

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        2. Mentally Spicy*

          My answer to that question: I am an animal. I’m a human being, part of the order of primates, in the kingdom of animalia. I could not and will not ever be a different animal. It’s not possible. Moreover, I don’t WANT to be another animal. Being human is fine. I refuse to answer that question in any other way.

          Is that a smart-arse way to answer? Yes! Do I care? No!

          Reply ↓
      2. D*

        I once answered that question with “I’d like to be a cat, because you can do whatever you want and people will still think you’re cute and feed you for some reason.”

        A terrible answer (I was just out of college), but to be fair…the question was stupid.

        Reply ↓
          1. KateM*

            And if the interviewer is not a cat lover, they think “that’s how you get an employee who thinks they can do anything at work because as long as they are cute it is enough to get paid”.

            Reply ↓
            1. Lavalas*

              The point of this question is not to reveal what kind of animal you would want to be. It is to suss out how you view your career and role in the company.

              If you are a leader and a strategic thinker, you answer an eagle. If you are in sales and are generating a lot of revenue, you answer a lion or tiger. The point is that for ambitious roles you need to answer something that is powerful and dominant.

              This question is absolutely NOT the time to bring up how cats are cute.

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              1. Lab Boss*

                I agree that’s what hiring managers mean when they ask the question, but that’s why it’s a terrible interview question. The way I aspirationally view myself at work is already not a 1:1 equivalent of how I actually am at work, and neither of those has the slightest correlation to what kind of animal I would be. The question ends up screening for candidates who have the same symbolic interpretations of animals that you do, and (even worse) candidates who answer a question with what they think you want to hear instead of the actual answer.

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              2. metadata minion*

                And it’s also apparently testing your knowledge of animal metaphor! I get why someone would say “eagle” for “leader”, but as someone who knows basically anything about actual eagles, I would never answer that because they’re not leaders. They’re solitary and as animals go not particularly intelligent. And I honestly have no idea why big cats are good for sales. Wouldn’t you want something clever and good at communicating like a corvid or a monkey?

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                1. Lab Boss*

                  “I want to be an Eagle because I want to surprise people with how well I swim and to always have people comment that I almost lost out on this position to a turkey.”

                2. Czhorat*

                  Throwback to Ben Franklin wanting a Turkey as the US national bird, rather than the ill-mannered eagle.

                3. metadata minion*

                  @Lab Boss — also, I sound much more amusing than I look!

                  (Seriously, anyone else reading this, if you don’t know what sounds eagles make, do yourself a favor and go look it up. That iconic primal-sounding scream that you hear for basically any raptor in the movies? That’s a red-tailed hawk. Eagles sound like a squeaky dog toy.)

              3. Fluffy Fish*

                Arguably there is no actual point to the question people just think there is. It’s a fluff question that someone thinks has some deep meaning, but it’s about as valid as a personality test.

                Reply ↓
              4. Emmy Noether*

                Oh, so it’s a code? And it’s testing whether you know the same code as the interviewer (which is likely actually testing whether you have a similar cultural background, socio-economic class and education as the interviewer)? That seems ill-advised.

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              5. umami*

                I had a colleague who would always ask this question (which I HATE, he also asked it when I was the one being interviewed but I knew how to play the game and made it about the role), and I was shocked at how many people would answer things like ‘dog, because then I could be lazy and sleep all day’. Um, this is still an interview, even if the question is dumb.

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                1. AngryOctopus*

                  Okay, but if you’re asking me what animal I want to be, I’m clearly not going to have a job, because most animals don’t have jobs, so yeah, I am going to be a cat who can nap all day and get treats by being cute around my owners, because it’s a very dumb question.

              6. Someone Online*

                I spent the weekend watching bald eagles try to steal fish from ospreys. It’s a metaphor, just maybe not a good one.

                Reply ↓
              7. Really?*

                I think you’re giving too much credit to the interviewer. It’s a really stupid job interview question – save it for a “break the ice” exercise…

                Reply ↓
              8. Emily Byrd Starr*

                I mean, lions and tigers are members of the cat family. It’s just that with those cats, we are the mice.

                Reply ↓
              9. Hyaline*

                Then ask the question you want the answer to–ask open-ended questions, get open-ended answers.

                Eagles aren’t even strategic thinkers. They’re carrion eaters who will nosh on a roadkilled raccoon–is that really what employers want? Does answering “eagle” mean “I’m opportunistic and not discerning”? Any kind of “code” here is shortsighted and restrictive.

                Reply ↓
              10. Observer*

                The point of this question is not to reveal what kind of animal you would want to be. It is to suss out how you view your career and role in the company.

                So even assuming that everyone understands that and is ready to play that game, it *still* doesn’t work. Because your metaphors are highly specific rather than universal. The fact that they are, as others have noted, also factually incorrect just makes it worse.

                What is worse about questions like this is that they are not actually about getting to know who you are but about “secret tests” that are looking for how well you adhere to codes. At least if you asked “If you chose an animal to represent your work persona, what would it be?” that would clarify what you are getting at. But you would still be left with all of the other issues.

                Reply ↓
              11. Irish Teacher.*

                Yeah, that’s sort of the problem with the question as it assumes the interviewee has the same associations as the interviewer. What one considers to be powerful and dominant, the other might not.

                Plus, it only tells you how the interviewee wants to be seen and you’d get that from asking what traits they have. And it’s not very helpful anyway as not everybody is particularly self-aware, plus people will say what they think suits the role.

                Not quite the same but my sister once did this online quiz about what word she associated with a dog, a cat and a rat. The results said that the word you associate with the dog is how you see yourself, with the cat is how you see your loved one and with the rat is how you see your worst enemy.

                The problem was my sister hates cats and likes rats so she said something like “ewwww” for cat and “cute” for rat.

                The animal and band position questions aren’t as obscure as that and allow for giving your reason, but…it still allows for different interpretations and if it’s the reason the interviewer is focusing on, they could just get that by asking “what role do you usually fill in a team?” or something similar.

                Reply ↓
              12. Dinwar*

                “If you are a leader and a strategic thinker, you answer an eagle.”

                Eagles look pretty but are fairly stupid. They are prey driven to a fault. For strategic thinkers that aren’t primates, look at ants–they developed agriculture and war, both of which require long-range planning.

                “If you are in sales and are generating a lot of revenue, you answer a lion or tiger.”

                Tigers are solitary animals, whereas sales folks need to be gregarious. And lions have one of the most over-sold reputations in the animal kingdom. Mostly they steal kills from other animals (such as hyaenas); whether that’s what you want on your sales team is up to you, but the word “sleezy” is not a compliment. They also engage in pretty horrible treatment of females, even by animal standards. They are right up there with ducks in that regard.

                “The point is that for ambitious roles you need to answer something that is powerful and dominant.”

                Given the options you’ve chosen “power” means “violence”. Which isn’t a great way to handle most business situations. And why is “dominant” a good thing? If you look at the organisms that actually accomplish things, what you rapidly find is that COOPERATION is the key to success. Bees, termites, and ants build tremendously complex structures precisely because they cooperate rather than wasting energy fighting one another.

                Ironically, predators are the last place I’d look for power or dominance. Predators are, by and large, cowards. Makes sense, too–they fight to eat, and generally have a success rate below 20% (dragonflies being the notable exception). It’s always a cost/benefit analysis, and generally it doesn’t take much to convince a predator you’re more effort than you’re worth. The prey, on the other hand, fight to live, and most do it astonishingly well. Look at lists of most dangerous animals and you’ll see things like hippos, cows, various deer, etc. People hunted wild boars in the past to train for combat, because the boars were more dangerous than running at a shield wall bristling with spears. Turns out when your ancestors for the past 50 million years died if they couldn’t fight off predators, you are really, really good at fighting.

                Maybe this won’t matter in 99% of jobs. But I work with a lot of biologists and paleontologists. Any that presented the logic you’re presenting here would thereby demonstrate their own incompetence and complete failure to learn basic information about the animals they ostensibly study.

                A really, really good answer would be “Part of a walking bryozoan colony.” Each organism in those colonies have a job, and the colony only survives if they all do their jobs. Every job is important, and while every individual is replaceable (same as every cell in your body is) you still need those roles filled. Plus, it’d show knowledge of the field I’d be hiring you for, which is a plus.

                Reply ↓
                1. MigraineMonth*

                  YES!

                  Hippos kill *vastly* more people than lions. Also beware zebras, they will one-kick murder you, lions, hyenas, and anything else that comes near the herd.

        2. Jaydee*

          I had a former boss who loved asking an icebreaker in team meetings. One time it was what animal you’d be and why. I said a cat so I could sleep all day and do whatever I want.

          I was…not fresh out of college. More like 15 years into my career. But I like to think my boss and coworkers understood the existential exhaustion behind that answer. I work hard both at work and in my personal life. I want to be a cat so I don’t have to.

          Reply ↓
              1. Bubbly*

                I choose to reject personal branding on the basis that most people are not brands. The very thought gives me the shuddering icks.

                Reply ↓
              2. JustCuz*

                Yeah … and a weird hill to die on to try keep in interviews. You are asking people to be creative when 95% of jobs you just need someone to mostly follow the rules. And the other 3% involves creative problem-solving, and there are sooo many more appropriate questions ask to gauge the candidate on that. The rest I guess could need a personal brand, and sure, ask away to those candidates?

                Reply ↓
            2. Ace in the Hole*

              Branding is, quite literally, a painful and dehumanizing process that marks an individual as property for consumption.

              It has no place being applied to people.

              Reply ↓
            3. Fluffy Fish*

              It’s not. But it is a sign of someone I don’t want to work for.

              It’s silly and absolutely pointless. If you personally want to envision yourself as a lion because that gives you some kind of purpose to your career – knock yourself out.

              Applying that kind of a metric to others is pure garbage.

              Reply ↓
        1. Potatohead*

          “I can’t wait to be famous
          Do I have talent – well, no
          These days you don’t really need it
          Thanks to reality shows”
          -Brad Paisley, ‘Celebrity’

          Reply ↓
        2. Good Enough For Government Work*

          Since the days of Bob Dylan, Jimi Hendrix and ESPECIALLY Lou ‘Can Sing Up A Bit And Down A Bit’ Reed, singing ability has never actually been a qualification for lead singer…

          Reply ↓
        3. Czhorat*

          Could Bob Dylan sing? Madonna? Even Kris Kristofferson didn’t have the greatest voice.

          I could be the kind of singer who doesn’t sing all that well.

          Reply ↓
          1. Margaret Cavendish*

            Yeah, Gene Simmons is kind of a terrible singer. It’s definitely not a key criteria for that band!

            Reply ↓
    4. Earlk*

      It’s probably like the biscuit question- the one you choose to be isn’t important but the reason you choose it is, however everyone has a biscuit they can try to justify in work terms but it’d be harder for most people to choose a band member and apply that to being a good team member.

      Reply ↓
      1. metadata minion*

        Biscuits like…cookies? The baked good? This might be a cultural thing because I have zero clue how I would apply any type of snack food to my job. I mean, I’m a creative person, I could do it given a little lead time, but I’m baffled at the idea that I should be able to think of an obvious choice.

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    6. Audrey Puffins*

      I think the only sensible response you can ever give to these questions is “what an interesting question! What information are you hoping to get from the way I answer it? Can we speak to that more directly instead?”

      Reply ↓
    7. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Agreed. I love music, and I would be stuck on that question and what the interviewer was trying to learn from me. I had an interview once where I was asked what position I would play on a football team, which was horrible in what feels like the same way as this question. All I know about football I learned from Friday Night Lights, so I just said I’d be the quarterback…because it was the only position I kind of understood. I was interviewing for an admin role, so this was not the answer they wanted, but luckily I also didn’t want the job after spending about 5 minutes in the interview!

      Reply ↓
      1. Seashell*

        That question seems problematic, aside from being a silly question. I’m a woman who has watched a lot of football, but I’ve never played it or any other team sports outside of gym class. People who have never played football or people from other countries where American football is not played or not that well known are at a likely disadvantage with that question.

        Reply ↓
      2. MigraineMonth*

        Um… coach?

        I feel like that’s the least likely to involve dying of heat stroke, broken bones or getting Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE).

        Reply ↓
    8. Saw Palmetto*

      May I add for your consideration: “you have a bag of rice and you’re at the top of an apartment building. Explain how you would distribute the rice most efficiently.”

      Reply ↓
  6. Pipe Organ Guy*

    Which position in a band? Nope. I’m a classical organist. I’ll work (maybe; I’m retired these days) as a church organist in a congenial environment; that would be leading the hymns as only a trained organist can, being the accompanist for the choir and soloists, playing organ solos as part of a church service. I’ll play collaboratively with other soloists, emphasis on collaboration. And I’ll tie this in with question #3: I’ve had employers who decided they wanted me to be a different person. No, they didn’t put it that way; they wanted me to play a whole different kind of music that they wanted but wasn’t what I was educated for and wasn’t my voice.

    Reply ↓
    2. honeygrim*

      Comedy option for you: you pick Mike Score in the music video for “I ran.” Just holding down that one key and dramatically switching to another one when the chord changes.

      Reply ↓
  7. nnn*

    #2: Apart from the fact that too many people don’t know enough about music to know how to even begin thinking about which position they’d choose, some people know a lot about music and would choose a position for reasons unrelated to what you’re trying to evaluate.

    For example, here’s where my train of thought instantly went: “Well, definitely not drums because I don’t have a car, unless we’re somehow successful enough to have roadies? Whether I should sing depends on the genre of the band, because audiences are not going to willingly pay to hear me sing in genres that aren’t a good fit. Probably also depends on the length of performance, because even when I can provide good-quality vocals, my endurance is lacking. Right now my eczema is flaring and I might have to wrap my fingers, so bass would probably be better than lead guitar since it broadly and generally requires less dexterity, although that does depend on the overall repertoire.”

    Which in no way answers the question OP is trying to answer!

    Reply ↓
      1. Lab Boss*

        Or conversely, “drums, because then everyone has to come to my place for practice” to quote the thought process of a high school friend in a garage band.

        Reply ↓
    2. many bells down*

      And then there’s me, who after 48 years of a life in which I never played an instrument, decided to learn the bagpipes.

      Bagpipes are my answer. 99.99% sure that’s not the one they’d be looking for!

      Reply ↓
        1. Scout Finch*

          It’s A Long Way To The Top If You Wanna Rock & Roll – Robin Zander , Lizzy Hale, Gilby Clarke, Matt Sorum & others did a great version of this as (DE)TOUR.

          Reply ↓
        1. Too Fat for Work Pants*

          Yeah, but that is how you make 11 albums that sound exactly the same! We here at abc corp are looking for people ready to piviot into the unknown!

          Reply ↓
          1. Annie*

            You missed Angus’s response to that!

            “I’m sick and tired of people saying that we put out 11 albums that sound exactly the same. In fact, we’ve put out 12 albums that sound exactly the same.”

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    3. Aardvark*

      It also assumes that LW2’s view of instrument stereotypes is both true and shared by interviewee. As someone who has played multiple instruments in multiple groups there just isn’t enough consistency in the stereotypes (like any stereotypes really) for them to be applied at individual level.
      I’d actually be put off by what LW might assume about me based on the instruments I play. Especially if the would use those assumptions to decide on whether to employ me, rather than my relevant experience.

      Reply ↓
      1. HigherEd Boundaries*

        I also think that LW view highlights a very specific view of leadership, which isn’t always true. I would have answered drummer because my job as a leader is to lay the foundation so my team can do their jobs well and flourish. A lead singer can be a leader, especially if they’re doing a lot of the behind-the-scenes work with writing, producing, and creating a collaborative team environment (looking at you, Dave Grohl), but that’s not always the case.

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      2. Kes*

        Yeah. Also, I am in a lead position at work, which I like, and to me that is very different from being the center of attention on stage, which I would be a lot less interested in doing. So not necessarily wanting to be lead singer (or guitarist, or whatever), doesn’t necessarily accurately infer work leadership interest or ability in a non-musical context

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    4. Seal*

      I was a musician from elementary school into my mid-30s and have been in ensembles of all shapes and sizes, including marching bands, drum corps, jazz ensembles, wind ensembles, orchestras, pit orchestras, and many more. So my first thought was “what kind of band and what genre of music?”, followed by “what is the rehearsal schedule?” and “would this be a paying gig?” and “how much travel would be involved?”. By that point, the interviewer would be wishing they asked me about elephants or trees instead.

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    5. amoeba*

      Hah, yeah – “obviously keyboard and/or singer, because those are the only ones I have any proficiency in!”

      Although that might possibly tell the interviewer something about my way to approach problems, now that I think of it… I’m a scientist, so I guess it fits, haha!

      Reply ↓
    6. Constance Lloyd*

      “Clarinetist. Because that’s the only instrument I know how to play and jazz bands exist.”

      Reply ↓
        1. Lab Boss*

          Well, given that modern country music is really not all that different than rock music with a fiddle… there’s a tuba solo in “Online” by Brad Paisley? Or, having cheated and checked Google, there’s “Boom Pam,” an “Israeli surf-rock band featuring a lineup of two guitars, a tuba, and drums.” They’re actually pretty good?

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        2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

          Billy and the Boingers?

          (“I prefer ‘weighty brass'” – Opus the penguin)

          (Yes, I’m definitely dating myself with this reference)

          Reply ↓
      1. One Duck In A Row*

        How does a candidate’s answer to the question say anything about whether they are a leader or follower at work?

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      2. Antilles*

        That doesn’t convey at all in the question though. For a lot of people, they would get tripped up by it as actual instruments and give you responses (like you can see a ton in these comments) about “well I can’t play an instrument so vocals I guess” or “I played X growing up so that”.
        And in any case, even if you modify the question to better clarify that you mean it as how someone sees themselves, what instrument actually means that?
        The guitar player in many rock bands would be the lead, but wait, plenty of bands have a pure vocalist who is the leader and the guitarist is a follower. Oh so vocals would imply leadership, but wait what if we’re thinking about a choir where there are like 20 people in vocals, in which case the vocalists are all followers and the conductor is actually the leader. But what about songs with an iconic drum intro, because in that case the drummer is really the leader since he’s setting the tone for the entire performance.

        Reply ↓
      3. xylocopa*

        Yes, but interpreting the question in that specific way requires someone to be very familiar with the tropes of a specific subset of music.

        Reply ↓
      4. NotAnotherManager!*

        Not really, it’s about whether you ascribe the same leadership value to the roles in a bad as LW2 does (and I think they’re totally wrong about the role of the drummer). It’s a question that requires both parties share specific assumptions about what a leadership role is and who holds them in the band and is rife for misinterpretation.

        It also ignores that there are different ways to lead. The person holding the mic in the front is not always the one leading the way, sometimes they’re just yelling in a way that is distracting from the real work being done in the back.

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      5. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

        And those roles don’t map neatly onto the question being asked, which is why it’s a bad question for an interview. Great question for a first date or low-stakes icebreaker at a conference roundtable or something.

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      6. Margaret Cavendish*

        Yes, and that’s exactly the problem! Not everyone will recognize this as a metaphor – lots of people will try to answer the question literally. Then there will be people who recognize it as a metaphor but don’t know enough about music to come up with a meaningful answer. And finally, people who recognize it as a metaphor and have plenty of musical knowledge, but have different cultural assumptions than the interviewer.

        It’s just not a useful question. If you want to know if a person would prefer to be a visible leader vs keeping things going in the background vs adding creativity to an established structure, or whatever – then you can just say that. Using a metaphor doesn’t add anything to the question, and comes with too much risk of misinterpreting the answers.

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      7. New Jack Karyn*

        “Tell me about a time when you took on a leadership role.”

        “How would you react if you were given a mandate you disagreed with? Not a legal or ethical issue, but your leadership wants you to back a plan that you have reservations about.”

        You can ask directly what you want to know about a candidate’s leadership/following along abilities.

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      8. Someone Online*

        Then just ask that? “Do you prefer to create your own goals and objectives and workplans or do you prefer to work collaboratively in a team with more defined objectives?”

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      9. AdminGirl*

        Then just ask about that directly! Asking questions that rely on everyone understanding that there’s actually another question being asked under the surface disadvantages interviewees (like me) who have a hard time “reading” the undertones in the question.

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      10. Observer*

        this is not about music. It is about whether you see yourself as a leader or a follower.

        And again, people are telling you that if you want an answer to a question ask the question rather than a proxy. And if you MUST use a proxy for some reason, use something that actually has a real chance of mapping to the issue you are looking at.

        Simply put, even if you ignore the competence based parts of the question, the answers will only be a semi-meaningful proxy *if* (and ONLY if) the interviewee shares the same exact not even accurate set of stereotype based assumptions as the interviewer. Which is just not likely.

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      11. Retired lawyer*

        But the question has no relationship to leadership. Who is “leading” a band can vary significantly based on the band, to the point where the instrument someone plays has nothing to do with leadership. In jazz, for example, bandleaders include: Buddy Rich (drummer), John Scofield and Molly Miller (guitar), Oscar Peterson (piano), John Coltrane (sax), etc. In rock: drums — Phil Collins (Genesis); bass — Johnette Napolitano (Concrete Blonde), Phil Lynott (Thin Lizzy); guitar — Carlos Santana and Prince. You can’t even really make a lead versus rhythm guitar distinction — look at Black Francis of the Pixies, for example, or Malcolm Young of AC/DC.

        All of which is also leaving out the numerous bands where there are collaborations with no obvious leaders. Who, exactly, was the leader of the Beatles? What about Rush? I put Malcolm Young in above, but I’m not sure if there really was a single leader of AC/DC.

        Also, what I’ve written above is just about how things look from the outside. Ultimately, the real question here is what does leadership in a band even look like? Who is the leader? The one who writes the songs? The one who sets the tours and handles logistics? The person who keeps everyone on track as they are playing live?

        Even in the live situation, if you have a band that improvises at all, the question of who is leading and who is following can change multiple times. There’s a great video out there of Ulysses Owens, Jr. and his jazz band coming into the studio and making a cover of Nirvana’s “In Bloom”; a song that most of the band is hearing for the first time in that video. If you want to talk about leadership, that video is fascinating. Ulysses is definitely the overall leader of the band, but in that context, labelling the other band members as “followers” is a gross misrepresentation of what they are doing. They are directing the creation of the cover as much as he is.

        I love music, and like to talk about it (obviously, lol). Even so, I would still be put off if someone asked me this question in the context of a job interview, unless that interview was for a position that involved music or was related to music. As someone above noted it is very much like the “what kind of animal would you be” questions. I doubt I’d walk upon being asked it or turn down the job solely because of that question, but it would definitely raise questions about the judgment of the interviewer.

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    8. MigraineMonth*

      Definitely not drums. I get migraines.

      Actually, anywhere near the band sounds like a bad idea. Can I run the social media?

      Reply ↓
    9. tiny moon*

      I immediately thought “not drums because they get so sweaty and I’m already sweaty.” I also have a terrible sense of rhythm. But I’m great at keeping a project going!

      Reply ↓
  8. SamiLou*

    For OP #3: I’m guessing you’re in a charter school with the mentions of it being more businesslike and corporate.
    In any case, for every teacher evaluation form I’ve seen, only one had much more 35% useful feedback for the teacher. The whole process is generally not worth the time and effort.

    It sounds like the principal is either possibly not an educator, or has no advanced/additional education and experience, or a number of other factors contributing to your evaluation.

    My advice: to what you need to do to make it until June.
    But – right now – start looking into different districts and schools. No reason to stay where you are.

    Reply ↓
    1. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

      Yes, LW3 might want to consider leaving the job, but there’s no reason to seriously consider leaving the profession based on one bad review.

      Reply ↓
    2. Alicent*

      I completely agree. I’ve worked under a couple of lunatic bosses in my career who unfortunately owned the very small businesses. If you listened to them I was either a show-off who abandoned their clients (quit because there was so much illegal and unethical activity I was worried about my own license) or couldn’t communicate with clients to save my own life and was lazy (had a couple wildly out of touch clients who would complain about being correctly billed per company policy and I didn’t want to work 80 hours every week to cover my coworkers who just coincidentally scheduled themselves to be hours away when they were supposed to cover on call).

      These places both had massive management problems and drove off excellent staff that had worked very successfully and with his praise at other jobs. I did end up leaving my area of the industry, but pivoted to another that paid better with normal hours and bosses who appreciate me.

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    3. Anon for this*

      Go to a different school.

      It might mean exactly what you think it does. You should be prepared to here that critique from a looooot of people in the education field. Bubbly extroverts in education often seem unable to believe that any other type of person exists or can possibly form connections or succeed with students. I’ve always got the ” you must be super bubbly and always available, etc.” worst from other teachers. I guess I get the last laugh as I’m still in the career, while those teachers have all gorwn resentful that everyone doesn’t see how utterly wonderful they are and acquiesce to their teaching models. (This harrasment was occuring as I was writing and distributing materials for what equates to the entire state school system, because I needed them and why not share.)

      This teacher also felt the need to tell me I would be a terrible special needs teacher because I was just too strict, exacting and not “nice or fun” enough. This ignored that I had helped a range of special needs students (including moderate to relatively severe developmental issues) in the classroom and they passed their standardized exams at the grade 10 level.

      It is all nonsense. If you are talking evenly to your colleagues, helping with material prep, attending PD, being polite, you are fine. In education there will almost always be a martyr who NEEDS to be the BEST teacher in the room.

      TL:DR
      Ask for clarification, change schools, but stay inthe profession.

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      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Do…those people think all students are bubbly extroverts? I am an introverted, nerdy, possibly autistic teacher and I…actually get on well with most kids (except maybe the kids who only respect the really strict teacher because…that’s not me), but in particular, I get on really well with the introverted, nerdy and autistic kids. Or the kids with anxiety.

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  9. PDB*

    LW2: I’d pick the one I actually chose: roadie/sound mixer. Later I became a major label recording engineer. And yes, if you listened to rock and roll in the 60s, 70s, 80s, and 90s you’ve heard my work.

    Reply ↓
    1. The OG Sleepless*

      Nice! My daughter is just starting off as a sound engineer. Right now she’s working in live sound, but she loves studio mixing too.

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    2. TGIF*

      I always wanted to be a recording engineer but I never made it sadly. I did work in radio for a bit as a board engineer but not quite the same thing. I am a huge fan of Jim Messina who started as a recording engineer and then became his calling which is a singer/songwriter.

      Reply ↓
  10. Touch Of The 'Tism*

    I feel for Wendy. i, too, would look at a manager i admire and be like “wow, she’s serving c–t.” thing is I’d do it to a friend, or maybe (maybe) a work friend around my age that I’m on the same level with and have a good relationship with. not for anyone to hear. I feel like they should have given Wendy a warning “Hey, you didn’t mean that offensively, but some things just shouldn’t be said” and give her a chance to correct.

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    1. Sunny*

      It’s possible she was given a warning, or there may have been more to the story we don’t know and her relationship with Caitlin. OP doesn’t give much detail about the firing itself – or the office culture. It also shows really poor judgment since that’s a term that MANY people would find horribly offensive. I worked in the same place for 15 years, knew my coworkers really well and was close with many, but I’d still never use that term in the workplace where I want to be seen as a professional.

      Or maybe the role requires tact, judgement or sensitivity and Wendy just veered so far from that, the company couldn’t keep her? Or maybe she used it in front of a client who complained.

      I agree it’s probably more a coaching moment, but we just don’t know enough of the surrounding details.

      Reply ↓
      2. EventPlannerGal*

        I feel like this sentence is probably the key part and raises a lot of questions: “Caitlin felt Wendy was calling her a name to other people, clients, and online when she found out Wendy had been saying it.” Other people, clients AND ONLINE? Who exactly did she say this to? Was she saying this repeatedly? Did she say it on social media or something? I don’t know how much it would change the answer but I’m just so curious lol.

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    2. Artemesia*

      The thing is that word, the c word is about as crude and verbotten as it gets in the US. I know it is used casually in the UK, but in the workplace here it would be wildly inappropriate. I am old and out of touch and not familiar with the phrase and would have been shocked hearing it in the workplace. I do think as a mentor knowing the phrase and its meaning, I might have stepped in to explain it to the boss. But wow. there is a lesson learned.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jill Swinburne*

        In New Zealand it’s used pretty casually too (very common for someone to describe another person, for instance, as a “G.C.”, the g standing for ‘good’) – but you absolutely, positively would NOT use it at work. Unless you worked on something like a construction site or power pylons in the middle of nowhere. In 99% of offices, no.

        I haven’t heard that phrase (I am not down with the kids), and while given a moment or two to think about it I’d probably decide it was complimentary, I’d still be surprised at the lack of professional judgment at saying it at all when there are plenty of SFW sayings (yes, even from an entry-level hire – there’s a time and place).

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        1. UKDancer*

          I’d say in the UK it’s definitely not used casually in the workplace. It would be most inappropriate here. I mean there are some places where it’s more common in social and informal conversation (parts of Scotland I think for one) but if anyone used it in the workplace I’d wonder about their grasp of appropriate behaviour.

          I’d also not heard this particular phrase but then I’m also not down with the kids. So I’d assume a reasonable level of unfamiliarity with it.

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          1. Ellis Bell*

            Yeah, I’d be deeply shocked if I heard this at work, UK or not. Apparently I am also not down with the kids! However you can usually tell from context and tone what someone actually “means” and I think there’s always room for curiosity about what someone was thinking when they say something shocking. I would hope that someone at least gave her a chance to course correct.

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            1. Sashaa*

              Yep sounds like it means they are serving up their c* to people, implying some kind of sex worker?

              Or serving is an adjective, like “serving wench”. And so not only do you have the c word, which is bad, but you are calling them some kind of medieval servant too. Probably a few rungs on the ladder below a wench, as you are also calling them a c*.

              Really not good on any level.

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              1. sookie st james*

                “serving” in this context is just slang for what someone looks or acts like, and is almost always used in a complimentary context. it is tied to phrases like “you ate that” (you did well/pulled it off/look amazing) and using “a snack” or “a whole meal” as synonyms for looking attractive/wearing an amazing outfit. you may have heard the word “giving” being used similarly (“her outfit is giving [insert complimentary adjective or description]”) – “she’s giving face” and “she’s serving face” both mean her face and/or makeup looks great.

                we could argue about whether there are misogynistic undertones or problematic etymology behind these phrases, but they’re so ubiquitously used among young people and people online that it’s not intended to be received as anything other than a compliment. it’s definitely not meant to imply servitude or sex work!

                obligatory disclaimer that of course Wendy shouldn’t have used it (repeatedly) at work, especially in reference to someone she should have known wouldn’t understand or appreciate it

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                1. amoeba*

                  Wow, I’ve never felt less down with the kids than reading this, lol. (OK, I’m also not a native speaker, but I guess my online hangouts are also aging nowadays!)

                2. Beany*

                  Not familiar with the phrase at all (Gen X here), but I’d assume the “serving” part means roughly what you’re saying. The c*** part, though, is so toxic, I’d still assume the phrase meant something along the lines of “acting like a belligerent a**h***”. The idea that it could be a positive meaning overall is just weird to me.

              2. Nodramalama*

                Thats not what serving refers to. It comes from ballroom culture where you “serve” a look. It actually comes from being very femme.

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                2. riverofmolecules*

                  Yeah, the comments I keep seeing keep referring this as a youth thing or an age gap thing, but it’s specifically ball culture slang! It’s Black queer language that became popularized by things like Ru Paul’s Drag Race. Like most “gen z” slang people talk about, it’s (queer) AAVE that got adopted by non-Black people.

                  I can’t really speculate as to the identities of the LW’s mentee, but the lack of cognizance to code switch here is weird.

              3. doreen*

                I thought the same thing. Which is why I don’t think that Wendy’s mistake was so much in using a vulgar word as much as not realizing that slang is different in different subcultures and no one is familiar with all of it. A lot of people are not going to understand what this phrase means at all, much less that it’s a compliment – I didn’t even understand the explanations given below as I never heard of “ballroom culture” nor “serving” used to mean the way someone looks or acts . It’s somewhat worse because of the particular word used – but if someone outside of this conversation had used “giving face”, I would have assumed it was a variation on a particular slang term for a sex act , not that someone’s face looks great. And there would have been a similar misunderstanding even though there isn’t any individual vulgar word involved.

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                1. Observer*

                  Which is why I don’t think that Wendy’s mistake was so much in using a vulgar word as much as not realizing that slang is different in different subcultures and no one is familiar with all of it.

                  I think that *both* are true. And I suspect that that’s at least part of the reason that it went to firing. Like “uses really crude language” = bad. “Uses edgy slang that a lot of people won’t understand” = bad. Does *both*, repeatedly? Just way too much.

                  You are right about the rest of it as well. There are so many extremely particular pieces to this that it’s really a lot to expect that the general public / most of a business audience is going to understand the references here.

                  And I get that it can be hard to realize that something that looks like “general culture” is actually not that broad based. But let’s get real. Anything that requires reference to “ballroom culture” to understand is *absolutely* niche and cannot be considered something that “most people in the general world” will understand.

              4. Jackalope*

                Yeah, I’ve never heard this expression before, and if I’d been going to guess based solely on a coworker using it in the wild, I would have guessed that it was more along the lines of, “She earned her promotion on her back.” Which several people have now explained that it’s something different, but just to say that this is the sort of thing one should only use when in a casual setting where you’re certain that the people around you will understand what you mean. NOT at work.

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              5. Dahlia*

                The phrase has an origin in AAVE and queer culture, and it has a definition. I don’t think we need to invent a totally different one if we’re unfamiliar with it.

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                1. Usually-an-AAM-lurker*

                  But how would anyone not familiar with those cultures know that? That’s the issue.

                2. Parakeet*

                  Yep, and it’s also not a US vs UK difference like the standalone word is (judging by the comments, I’m getting the impression that some people, used to that cultural difference, think that’s what’s going on here). And it’s only sort of a generational difference – I expect there’s an age correlation for RuPaul viewership, but it isn’t strict, and I’d also be unsurprised to hear it from ballroom culture elders.

                  I absolutely agree with the consensus that it was a really, really bad idea for Wendy to say this and that someone who doesn’t know the phrase is highly likely to think it means something very very different than it does. I don’t say it myself and would be uncomfortable doing so for multiple reasons. But as you said, it means what it means!

            2. londonedit*

              It’s a word I (UK) will semi-routinely use among close friends, but I would never use it at work. I’ve never heard the phrase ‘serving c***’ before and I wouldn’t have a clue what it meant. I do use the c-word in a sort of hyperbolic way (in the same way as we in Britain will say ‘oh it was a total nightmare’ if something’s mildly inconvenienced us, my most common use of the c-word would be in a situation like ‘…and I realised I was being a total c***’ when in fact I’d just done something a bit silly, or I might say someone was ‘acting like a complete c***’ or something like that), but even so, I’d never use it at work, and the phrase ‘serving c***’ is one that I’d never trust other people to understand the meaning of, so I particularly wouldn’t use it unless I knew I was with a group of people who definitely would understand.

              I mean, I think getting fired for simply using the c-word is a bit much – I think here that would be something that would be dealt with in more of a ‘serious chat about workplace expectations’ way, but I can see why people were shocked when Wendy said it. Even in places like the UK and Australia you don’t just throw the c-word around in a professional environment.

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              1. Great Frogs of Literature*

                Whereas in the US, it’s one of the three most offensive words I know. And it might be in the top two of those. (Upon reflection, I can probably come up with additional racial slurs that are similarly offensive, but I haven’t ever actually heard those USED towards someone, so they don’t carry quite the same punch for me.)

                I don’t think I’d jump to immediate firing unless it was a very particular context, but it would make me SERIOUSLY question someone’s judgement and they’d be on very thin ice afterwards.

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                1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

                  Yes. It’s one of a *very* small subset of words that are so offensive that people won’t even say them when discussing the words as words, alongside the n-word. And like the n-word, if you’re going to reclaim it, you need to be really, REALLY sure that other individuals who were historically targets of the slur are on board with it being used that way before you use it to or about them specifically.

          2. Michigander*

            I work in Scotland, in an office, and know what the phrase means, and I would be SHOCKED to hear someone say this at work. Definitely sounds like a case of someone who is still learning the difference between the work world and social world, and unfortunately messing it up in a big way.

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            1. Thistle*

              Scot here. no matter the context, its pretty shocking to hear. It’s never acceptable in “polite company.

              It’s the worst word I know in the English language.

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            2. EventPlannerGal*

              Scottish, working in Scotland, and I agree. IMO this is one of those things that we (Scottish people) like to play up to a bit, especially in front of an English audience, like ‘oh you’re shocked by that? we say it all the time, literally all the time, nobody would ever take offence because it’s so mild here!’, when in fact there are still pretty clear boundaries about when it is and is not OK to say.

              Reply ↓
        2. ScruffyInternHerder*

          I cannot speak to NZ but at least in the USA, in all the time I’ve spent at and on jobsites, the “c word” is basically the ONLY thing I’ve never heard. Every other colorful variation on curse words and foul language in multiple languages, but never that one.

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      2. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

        Absolutely. I had actually never heard that expression before. I realized what it was supposed to mean right away, but I still cringed a little. I am an American, and I find that word very offensivel as well as distastefully misogynistic. I am no prude; I can cuss like a sailor (in contexts where that is accceptable), and don’t usually bat an eye when someone else does. (The F bomb is my favorite; I love the multiplicity of meanings it can convey, especially which added endings such as -er and -ing.)

        But the C word is beyond the pale as far as I’m concerned, especially in a work place. To any Brits reading this, what Artmesia said is correct: the C word has a drastically different impact this side of the pond, and if you ever visit the U.S., I recommend leaving it at home. Unless you actually enjoy shocking and offending people (hey, to each their own!), in which case, calling someone a C word will definitely do that for you!

        Reply ↓
        1. Everdene*

          As UKDancer said, in areas of Scotland it is used more widely* but no-one would use it in a work context. I work in a very sweary field and can recall two workplace uses in the last decade, both proceeded by ‘I don’t like this word but…’

          *More widely but definitely only within some groups and contexts.

          Reply ↓
          1. UKDancer*

            Definitely very contextual in Scotland but it’s too early in the morning for me to be able to parse how this works and I’m not Scottish so may miss some nuances.

            Reply ↓
            1. Weegie*

              I’m Scottish. It’s an insult. And in my part of Scotland it’s used in contexts where violence is being threatened and/or for shock value. Definitely not for use at work, or in any context where people want to be perceived well.

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              1. Lexi Vipond*

                Also in Scotland and there are wider uses than that – as someone said below, it’s used positively between close (often male) friends, and there’s a fairly neutral use (‘and then some c*** comes along and tells us…’) where it’s probably being used for someone who told you something that displeased or inconvenienced you, but it’s more a reflection of that than any kind of comment on their character.

                I’d still be surprised to hear it in most offices, though – in certain settings or between close colleagues, maybe, but not more widely.

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            2. Media Monkey*

              i am scottish and i wouldn’t use it personally, although i wouldn’t be surprised to hear someone use it socially. however never ever in the workplace (and i work in places where swearing in general is pretty fine, but swearing *at* people would very much not be fine!)

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              1. Emily Byrd Starr*

                “and i work in places where swearing in general is pretty fine, but swearing *at* people would very much not be fine!”

                As in, spilling your cup of water and saying “oh, F***,” is fine; but telling someone to F off is not okay.

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            3. bamcheeks*

              In my understanding, the big difference between how it’s used in the UK, Australia and New Zealand from North America is that we use it ambigenderously. If you’re calling someone a c***, you’re naming their behaviour– and that can range from being actually angry at someone to playfully or jokingly calling them out. It’s more likely to be used for men, and most of the time when it’s used for women it’s more like a synonym of “arse” than “bitch”, so it’s still about behaviour/attitude rather than gender. In North America, as far as I can tell, it’s way more likely to be used for women, with a much more misogynist intent behind it.

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              1. DJ Abbott*

                I’m American and that’s how I understand it too. I’ve rarely heard it used but the times I have, it was definitely misogynistic – a way for a hateful man to insult a woman who had turned him down, for example.

                Reply ↓
              2. Great Frogs of Literature*

                Agreed — I can’t imagine hearing it used for a man, and it’s definitely the ultra-misogynistic version of the (already usually misogynistic) “bitch.”

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                1. londonedit*

                  And that’s interesting because I find it much more difficult to imagine someone using it about a woman – definitely about a man, though!

                2. Ellis Bell*

                  In some places of the UK it’s affectionate bantering between men, a bit like men elsewhere might call each other a “pussy”. For that reason it would actually be pretty odd to use it about a woman. Still super inappropriate for work.

        2. StarTrek Nutcase*

          I have always viewed the c word as extremely derogatory toward women – on the same level as the n word (for Blacks) or s word (for Mexicans). To me, these three are simply NEVER acceptable to say (and I don’t subscribe to the belief a group can remake the word for that group). And while I certainly curse both in my personal and work life, there are distinct differences and also at work company specific. There is NO way Wendy was oblivious to the widespread objections to the c word itself – bet she wouldn’t call her mom that.

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        3. Nodramalama*

          I 100% think that Wendy should never used the phrase at work. But just for clarity, the phrase is very common in queer U.S. Culture. And the c-word in general is used positively in a lot of queer space- e.g to win RuPauls drag race you must serve Charisma Uniqueness Nerve and Talent

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          1. sb51*

            Yeah, it’s widely used in queer culture—I’m not a youth and I really don’t like the expression but I’m used to hearing it enough it no longer shocks me. It’s very common and very positively meant. And I’ve pretty certain I’ve heard it alluded to by people at the work queer group, always just as “serving….ahem” or something, never uncensored.

            I think the only takeaway for the LW is to keep an eye on future mentees and let them know that slang is just a bad idea at work; even if it’s not offensive it can be unclear. And that social media can and will get linked back to you.

            They could, if they feel close enough, drop a line to Wendy that they can serve as a reference.

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          2. Czhorat*

            THis is where the idea of code-switching comes in. Some things are very appropriate in one setting and not in others; part of professionalism is recognizing this and adjusting ones expression accordingly.

            The one place LW *might* have had space to see this is if Wendy had used other equally casual but less inappropriate idioms in work settings; “You ate” for example. If that had been caught it could have lead to the kind of coaching that would have stopped Wendy from using inappropriate language overall.

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          3. Smithy*

            I’m in the US and as a long time RuPaul’s Drag Race watcher – very familiar with the phrase. And in the workplace, it would still be jarring to hear.

            I’m an older millennial – so even if I’m familiar with the phrase, seeing it move over into wider and wider social circles is something I feel like I’m watching as opposed to being apart of. It’s that case of being familiar with different slang phrases, but they’re not part of my lexicon. If anything it more so reminds me of “my n**”. The in-group positivity and bonding that the phrase can carry does not mean it’s made it into general audience language. And the fact that it includes a word many people do find uncomfortable makes it even more heightened than other slang phrases. Especially at work.

            This letter does remind me of another online discussion of the moment around “office siren” dress. And I think a reality for any group newly entering the workforce can be either a desire or belief to see decisions as open for conversation or debate. If someone says “don’t use that phrase at work, it can be offensive” – and the response is to strongly defend why it’s actually not offensive, I think that’s a short road to those quicker terminations.

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          4. Touchofthe'Tism*

            Yeah, that may be where a lot of the differing opinions in my comments are, too. As someone steeped in queer culture I’m more like “Yeah, it can sound offensive if you don’t know, but I’ve heard it so much it’s not really phasing as offensive.”

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          5. Great Frogs of Literature*

            I’m queer and reasonably active in certain queer culture spheres (though admittedly not at all active in others) and had literally never heard the phrase before.

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          6. Insulindian Phasmid*

            Yea, I was in a Discord group a couple months ago when someone used the term C–ty” and I was like…exCUSE me? And they had to explain to me that it was a queer culture term and meant positively. I’m only 35 but I’d missed that evolution completely and I was so uncomfortable.

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          7. NotTheFunKind*

            So because the men using the misogynistic phrase for a woman’s body part are gay and supposedly mean it positively, women should be okay with it and accept it as “queer culture”?

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        4. TechWorker*

          There’s plenty of places in the U.K. where the c word is absolutely not used casually even socially, let alone AT WORK…

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      3. Tata*

        I had the same thought. I’m wondering if OP#1 is located in the British Isles where that word is used very casually and often?

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        1. UKDancer*

          I’m not sure whether you’re in the UK but I am and it really isn’t used very casually and often. Yes some people in some contexts may say that. But it remains offensive profanity and I’d not expect to hear it in the workplace or in common parlance. I’ve had work done in my house and the sparks told the tiler off for using that language for his ex wife as it offended his ears. And tradies aren’t known for being offended by bad language. I know profanity is perhaps more common in the UK but not that particular one

          Down the pub after several drinks by drunken yobs but really not common elsewhere.

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          1. Lily Rowan*

            Yeah, I mean, we’re still at work. I’m in the US, people say fuck all the time in lots of contexts, but I went around the office saying my boss was “fucking awesome!!!” it would still be clearly inappropriate.

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        2. londonedit*

          It’s not. Yes it’s used slightly more casually than in the US (where I gather it’s almost universally the most shocking thing you can say) but you cannot come to Britain and start throwing the c-word around and expect people to be fine with it.

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        3. Nebula*

          ‘Serving c***’ is more of a US thing though. Either way, as many people have said, it’s still not a word you’d use in a professional setting in the UK.

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        4. Nodramalama*

          I suspect not. The phrase is common in certain U.S spaces, so they might be used to that or more likely its proliferated into mainstream online culture, like “the tea” or “shade” “

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        5. EventPlannerGal*

          We might use it *more* casually and often than people in the US, but we do not use it as often as people seem to think. The specific phrasing OP mentions is something heavily linked to queer/drag culture, and from there has spread into online, pop-culture-y spaces via things like Drag Race and TikTok, so I would guess that this is something Wendy has picked up that way regardless of where they’re located.

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        6. No name username*

          I don’t know where you read that but as a Brit this is definitely not something I hear often and in everyday conversation. And it would be men not women saying it.

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      4. Arrietty*

        I’d be shocked and pretty offended if someone used that word about me, and I’m in the UK. I’ve only ever heard it as an insult.

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        1. Calanthea*

          I’m in the UK, and I’ve heard/seen this used a lot. I am in a lot of social groups that are either queer or mixed ages (or both), so perhaps that is part of it.

          FWIW, I wouldn’t expect someone to use this about a colleague, because it’s more associated with someone having a certain attitude or aesthetic that isn’t exactly “professional corporate highly regulated industry.” If one of my team used the phrase, I think it would be more likely that they would say “she served” rather than “she served c—,” and if that was in an informal office conversation I think that would be ok. If it were written down, or used in a formal setting, then yeah, I would mention it wasn’t appropriate in the way that most slang is not appropriate at work. I wouldn’t be offended.

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      5. Lady Knittington*

        The C word isn’t used casually in the UK at all. I work in construction where you hear the F word countless times a day (sometimes two or three times in one sentence). I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I’ve heard the C word.

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      6. Nodramalama*

        It’s fascinating to me how many of these comments are distinguishing between the use of the word in the U.S vs the UK or NZ or Australia, when the actual PHRASE is an American one. It really shows how subcultures can be so divorced from each other

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        1. londonedit*

          I think that’s mainly because a few people are saying ‘well the c word is fine in the UK and Australia’ and so we’re coming along from those countries to say no, actually, the c word generally isn’t just fine in the UK and Australia, and even in those countries you absolutely have to know your audience.

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          1. Nodramalama*

            Well an australian I would say that generally a lot of people DO think it’s a fine word to use in general conversation. But it’s not usually work appropriate.

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      7. Goosielou*

        It’s super common with the college students I teach in the US, even in a pretty conservative area, as well as derivatives – describing something as “c**ty” when they mean stylish, etc.
        It’s still bad form in an office, but for younger folks it doesn’t carry the weight it does for older people.

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        1. Three Flowers*

          I teach at a college in a liberal area with students who are Extremely Online even by Z/A standards, and I’ve never even heard of this, let alone heard a student say it in the presence of adults. Which goes to show that Wendy should absolutely have known better than to use it in any context related to work.

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      8. RagingADHD*

        In the US, c-t is also intensely misogynistic outside of this new (and still quite niche) usage.

        Reclaiming a slur doesn’t happen that fast, and until there’s a critical mass of people who at least know conceptually that a word is being reclaimed, it is bound to give offense.

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      9. RobinR*

        I want to offer that the word might be considered crude and verbotten *in your social circles and dialect* because it is used commonly, casually, and frequently in other cultures and dialects. This is one of those things where expecting everyone to have the same cultural norms and expecting everyone to obey a singular set of professional norms is setting up a lot of people to fail (including Wendy, who I also assume missed out on a lot of professional norms training due to her age/covid).

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        1. Three Flowers*

          That’s true in some cases, but not in this one. This is a slur being used in a non-slur way (ish—in the letter’s context it reads like “girlboss” which I would not consider a compliment to a serious adult) to an audience in which 98% of people are just going to hear the slur. It’s not AAVE or a culture clash due to immigration or saying “ain’t” because you’re southern. Wendy needs to learn. It’s unfortunate for her that she had to learn this way, but far from unjustified.

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          1. RobinR*

            It’s a slur *to you*. Slurs are not universal! And that 98% number is not based in any fact or scientific study. There are plenty of words that are offensive to my grandmother that are not to my mother and plenty of words that are offensive to my mother that are not to me. Being offended or upset by a word does not automatically make it a slur. Slurs are contextual to power and culture. Please please please read some linguistic work on stuff like this because language prescriptivism is one of many roots of bigotry.

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            1. Three Flowers*

              Uh, no, that’s a slur. 98% is of course a colloquial estimate.

              Please don’t lecture me. I literally have a terminal degree that, while not in sociolinguistics, is about how people communicate linguistically and in performance. In-group language is, as you say, complicated. But saying a word that is, in LW’s context, nearly always a slur *is in fact a slur* is not a root of bigotry.

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      10. Three Flowers*

        Yeah, also in the US and an old Millennial. I do not see any problem with any use of c—- EVER being an instant firing offense.

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      11. Editrix*

        Yes. In the US, it’s a word that many otherwise very foulmouthed people do not use. I worked for years among radio people, whose off-the-air language tends to be extremely raw, and I never heard that one. It would’ve dropped jaws even in that workplace.

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    3. Starbuck*

      If whoever hears the phrase has no clue of the context, they’re not going to assume theres anything potentially exculpatory that some googling would uncover. they’re going to react just to the word cnt, which is a pretty unjustifiable word to use in a work setting. Pass it through any layer of someone not in the know and it’s going to be “Wendy called her boss a cnt” and Wendy is going to be gone.

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      1. mango trees*

        This is actually the first time I’ve ever seen that phrase in my life, and I’m extremely chronically online…

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          1. bamcheeks*

            There is also a Eurovision song this year called Serving Kant, pronounced the way we’re discussing here, which is a bilingual pun on the Maltese word for music.

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            2. amoeba*

              Oh my god, this thread explains so much! I’d heard about the Kant controversy (I think they had to change the name in the end?) but had no idea what the deeper meaning was…

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            4. Smithy*

              Didn’t she have to change the lyrics for the Eurovision semi-finals/finals?

              If anything, it’s definitely a fascinating view of the word itself moreso in the mainstream lexicon that still hasn’t found exactly where it falls in terms of being titillating vs offensive. I do find Serving Kant needing to change itself particularly amusing when the songs from Finland and Australia have very clear sexual innuendo, but more so within the realm of what popular audiences are used to.

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              1. nekosan*

                Yeah, the song is just called “Serving” now, instead of “Kant”. And the lyrics are just “Serving… ah”. There are bets the audience will fill in the missing word during the live shows.

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          2. D*

            Yeah, I’ve heard it a lot despite not using it myself (the word just does not fit coming out of my mouth). But this whole situation does remind me of a terribly unprofessional coworker I had who refused to learn any workplace norms and claimed everything was just “We’re gen Z!”

            Girl, stop going to meetings you don’t need to be in and don’t contribute to. Don’t you have your own job?

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            3. queer tok anthropologist*

              It’s mainly used by queer* people to describe fierceness. For queer women it’s a bit of a reclamation, for queer men/the trans community it’s been a part of drag and similar subcultures (ballroom etc) for years and years and years. I have found it’s gotten more and more popular in the TikTok circles, and there it seems to be picked up by not just queer women but straight (seeming**) women in larger numbers to self-refer to a specific kind of style/attitude. In those contexts it’s seen as positive/subversively positive.

              *As someone who prefers the big-tent identity of queer myself I’m using that terms here, though I know in certain circles that itself is worthy of debate.
              **Of course, just because someone reads as straight in a minute-long video does not mean one can assume their alphabet, in the wise words of Who Weekly.

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            4. Flor*

              I’m not sure where you got the idea that “queer circles” are men seeing as the term “queer” is inherently an umbrella term that can apply to people of any gender…

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        3. Ally McBeal*

          Oooh, then please let me be the one to introduce you to the pop artist Chappell Roan! She uses the term with some frequency (she’s queer and her aesthetic is modeled off drag queens) in the bridges of her songs when she’s performing live, but thankfully not in the studio versions of her songs. Check out her performance on Colbert, her Coachella or Governor’s Ball sets from last year, and her NPR Tiny Desk set.

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      2. CityMouse*

        I’m US based and work in a workplace where the f-bomb is dropped occasionally, but the c word would be unacceptable. I am a mid millennial and pretty online (though not on certain apps) and haven’t heard this phrase.

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    4. AcademiaNut*

      What I’ve noted from a lot of letters about stuff like this is that often the difference between firing and reprimand is 1) whether the person doubles down on it not being a big deal and 2) how public the mistake is.

      If a relatively junior person doubles down on insisting that inappropriate or unethical behaviour is not that big a deal, it’s often easier to just let them go, rather than going through the effort to try to train them when they are resistant to learning. And if they messed up in a very public fashion, sometimes firing them is done to appease the people who witnessed it, particularly clients or higher ups.

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      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        The “public” bit is particularly important, I think, given this:

        “Caitlin didn’t see it that way. She thought Wendy was insulting her. Caitlin felt Wendy was calling her a name to other people, clients, and online when she found out Wendy had been saying it. (Wendy never used the phrase in front of me.)”

        It sounds like Wendy used the term multiple times, including in contexts that were or could become very public (clients, online). If Caitlin heard out about this via the grapevine, and it had already escaped confinement so to speak, that’s going to be extra bad.

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        1. Metal Gru*

          Apart from the expression itself, I was wondering (because it’s clear to me also that Wendy has been saying it repeatedly) why she’s saying things online and to clients about her assessment of Caitlin, even if it’s positive? Replace it with any other compliment, even a totally professional one, and it still seems odd to be repeatedly saying to clients etc that a senior manager of the company is amazing / badass / whatever.

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          1. sookie st james*

            it-s also odd bc I’m pretty sure Ive only ever seen “serving c–” being used in reference to how someone looks, so I think it’s weird Wendy was repeatedly using it to refer to someone she supposedly admires for professional reasons. to the extent that I would expect Wendy to use it at all, I would assume it would be in response to Caitlin being all dressed up for a fancy event, or a specific occasion where she did something with aplomb, it’s a bit odd to use it as a general description of someone’s work and personhood

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            1. bamcheeks*

              Yes, I was thinking that. The ur-use of serving cunt is drag queens complimenting each other, which got picked up by queer youth complimenting each other and then started to go mainstream. But it’s still primarily, “you look fabulous, and your attitude is fierce”. Even when I thought things like that about senior women I admired, I wouldn’t have said it to clients!

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            2. ecnaseener*

              This! I’ve heard it in the context of performance, and generally to compliment people’s looks/outfits. I’ve always taken it to include “hot” in its meaning.

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            3. Hroethvitnir*

              I’ve definitely seen it used as an extension to a woman just being really impressive – including being hypercompetent.

              Absolutely wild to not only say it at work without apparent hesitation, let alone multiple times, to be clear!

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          2. Smithy*

            Thinking about some people I see on LinkedIn…..I have seen a number of women I’m connected to on LinkedIn (mostly Millennial, but some younger Gen X) describing the work efforts of other women they know as “badass”.

            I do think this could potentially be a forum where inevitably some people post all the time, others who still use LinkedIn never post. So the perception of someone doing this “a lot” could be really elastic.

            As sookie noted, the phrase is so focused on vibe and look – that I think in the work context it’s still dubious as being the most appropriate. I do get that by saying “serving c” as opposed to “looking fierce”, it indicates the effort someone has intentionally put into not only their appearance but their overall aura and vibe. But in addition to the in-group slang nature, I do think it’s still fairly dubious in how appropriate because of the focus on looks.

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          3. Hosta*

            I could see someone saying online “my boss is an amazing powerful woman” with their friends or potentially in like a chat room where folks are talking about their jobs.

            I’m in my 40s, very not cool, and occasionally say ” is awesome ” to folks at work or friends. Maybe that’s not appropriate, but I really respect my boss and as a woman in a male dominated field having role models is nice.

            Clients…harder to put that story together. Maybe in response to “what do you think of the company/job?”

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        2. CityMouse*

          Yes, there’s also a big difference between saying something internally and saying it to clients and the public. If she’d said it more privately maybe it could have been a teaching moment. But if Wendy had already been liberal with that use of language multiple times to clients? That’s a lot harder to fix.

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    5. Media Monkey*

      i literally cannot imagine a point whether i would use the c-word about anyone i didn’t completely detest. and i’m from Scotland, home of calling your best mates the C-word! however (and this is probably a take coming from a place of internalised misogyny) i would be surprised to hear a woman use it in that sort of positive way, and absolutely never at work (for any gender). but i’m probably just old as i’ve never heard of “serving c-“, even from my 16 year old who is all about the tiktok.

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    6. MK*

      From the mention of “to other people, clients, and online”, I am guessing Wendy didn’t say it once or twice, but repeatedly used the phase I many inappropriate contacts. I agree that maybe firing was an overreaction, but I also think your employer shouldn’t have to teach you not to use phrases referring to genitalia in front of clients. Also, it’s not clear to me if Wendy was working for/with OP or not; if not, it’s possible there were other issues with her behaviour OP isn’t aware of.

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      1. Light Spinner*

        Boomer here: I’m constantly amazed by the number of digital natives who do. not. realize. that ANYTHING you post online can be accessed by ANYONE at ANY time. No, those tossed-off comments do not disappear just because you forget about having posted them or later on think better of them and delete them! By that time, people have read them and quite possibly saved or forwarded them. Whatever you put online takes on a life of its own – a life you no longer control. Please, people of all ages – remember this before hitting “send” or posting anything.

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        1. Andromeda Carr*

          This comment should be moved to the top of the discussion as one of the two morals of WEndy’s story.

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    7. Tea for Two*

      It’s esssentially a reclamation being used in queer spaces. You can hear people using “that’s so gay” the same way–as a way to describd it being awesome, instead of terrible.

      I feel weird about the reclamation of cunt. But I am also aware that many people, especially of the generation above mine, feel intensely uncomfortable with the reclamation of the word queer which they rightly associate with violent treatment. I still identify as queer, though.

      As far as evolutions of the slang go, I strongly prefer cunty to fishy. It’s difficult to read the latter without a derogatory conotation toward female genitalia. The use of cunt as positive seems to have increased alongside an uptick in more respectful treatment of women, gender queer people, and trans women.

      Wendy misread her audience. Probably, she thought the word had been reclaimed in more spaces than it has. (And failed to understand that it remains controversial in those spaces as well, perhaps outside of her social group.)

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    8. Pierrot*

      I am US based and at the tail end of millennial, I work at a progressive nonprofit, most of my peers are millennials, and the office environment is generally pretty casual and I would never dream of saying the c-word to/about anyone there, even if I meant it as a compliment. This is a relatively new slang expression (though I have heard of the c word being reclaimed/read a whole book about it in the 2010s) and there is a high likelihood that it would be misunderstood. I think in the US, many associate that word with violent misogyny, more so than bitch. Even if the delivery made it seem like a compliment, I think it would come across as inappropriate and kind of othering of women.

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      1. WellRed*

        Honestly despite all the explanations here this morning, I still can’t wrap my head around what it’s supposed to mean. My US translation would be self serving b****. Definitely not nice

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        1. londonedit*

          I’m learning too, but the ‘serving’ bit isn’t ‘self-serving’. It’s more like the modern use of the word ‘giving’ – like ‘that outfit is giving seriously cool vibes’ or whatever. meaning ‘that outfit is giving off seriously cool vibes’ or ‘that outfit is seriously cool’. As a good thing. So the phrase means something more like ‘that person is really giving off some seriously badass attitude, woo yeah, go them!!!’

          I’d never heard it before today, but I can picture the sort of meaning it’s meant to have. Still not in any way appropriate for general use in the workplace unless you’re speaking to a very small and close-knit team who would all be guaranteed to understand exactly what you meant, but it’s intended to be positive.

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        2. Nodramalama*

          The phrase comes from the u.s but it comes from Ballroom culture. You serve femme, you serve p****y, you serve c****t

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        3. Opaline*

          It’s not an insulting phrase at all. It’s from queer ballroom culture and expresses admiration of a person’s appearance, presentation or attitude. It’s more like:

          Serving = Presenting [something about yourself] to observers or an audience
          C*** = Powerful femininity (could be used for appearance or vibes)

          But while you could describe a high-status woman you respect as ‘serving c***’, it’s still not a good idea to say that to someone who doesn’t have context for what you mean!

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          1. metadata minion*

            It’s also clearly *very* gendered, which is not something you want in a complement for a colleague or boss unless you know them well enough to know they’d appreciate it. Plenty of women, even if they’re femme in appearance, don’t want to be complemented on their gender in a work context.

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            1. UKDancer*

              I think you’ve hit on something. I don’t like being praised for my looks at work. It annoys me and reminds me I’m a woman working in a male dominated sector. So I’m other.

              Praise me for my abilities, my leadership and how I’ve improved the company all you like. But don’t praise how I look.

              And certainly not in those worlds which feel too much like a slur.

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            2. Emily Byrd Starr*

              So, it’s like calling someone a babe or a chick? A compliment in certain contexts, but definitely not at work?

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              1. RobinR*

                No, not at all. It’s not gendered like that. Men, women, nonbinary folks, anybody can “serve c—” in ballroom culture. It’s about confidence, your outfit, your performance, everything, regardless of your gender expression. Drag Race has made it *seem* to be about feminine features and power, but even in drag circles people would say it to drag kings and people in attendance at queer events.

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              2. 123*

                I would say it’s more in line with calling someone a “badass bitch”, it’s a “clear” compliment in so far as it has no negative conotation for the person saying it but it’s still not appropriate for work and it is clearly gendered which some women may not be confortable with, especially in professional strings.

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            3. RobinR*

              It’s not gendered in the original context. It’s just not.

              In the original ballroom and queer meaning it’s not inherently tied to any one gender or presentation. Much of ballroom culture includes aspect of gender exploration in all its expansive possibilities.

              Wendy may have incorrectly used the term (not a surprise) because of exposure to drag race, but it’s not a phrase “just for women”.

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              1. metadata minion*

                Oh, fascinating; thanks! I think this is a phrase that really doesn’t work well outside of its original context.

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          2. Ann O'Nemity*

            Thank you! This is the best definition I’ve seen here.

            I’ll add that black queer ballroom culture is trying to reappropriate and reclaim terms like c*** and p***y to change them from a pejorative to a positive.

            The term has been around at least 10 years, dating back to black drag. It’s become more mainstream in the last couple years, which is probably why “Wendy” thinks it’s cool now.

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        5. Beth*

          A better translation would be something like “Giving off a vibe of powerful, confident femme-ness”. It makes me think of someone who is deeply confident, powerful, competent, etc. and presents in a way that leans into their femininity. (I know this is hard to wrap your head around if you’ve only ever encountered the c-word as an insult or slur, but it truly is a praise word in this specific context!)

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    9. L-squared*

      I mean… there is kind of common sense at play, which Wendy seems to lack.

      I’ll probably come off like an old man here, but whatever. I’m in my 40s. I’ve seen the term online. I get it. I’m also a guy. BUT, there are things you just don’t say in the workplace. I’d put the C-word squarely in the top 3. No matter how you are saying it. That is a word where, even when cursing is common, it’s going to stand out.

      So intentions aside, it’s just not smart. And yes, at 22 in my first job, I understood that I should err on the side of being more professional, not less.

      Even a term like “boss ass b-tch” is a term that gets thrown around that I’d think is bad, but what Wendy said was worse. I wouldn’t call my CEO a “Bad ASS M-F” out loud, even though most people would know its meant to be a compliment.

      To me, I think the firing was deserved just for such bad judgment in the workplace.

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    10. GrumpyLawyer*

      Same here, Touch of the ‘Tism, and I’m a Xennial. I wouldn’t be comfortable using the c-word that way myself, and it will probably always give me a slight jolt to hear it, but language evolves and that’s fine. So do professional norms. Maybe in 10 years, “serving c+” will sound as innocuous to most ears as “girl boss” or whatever. I’m a lawyer and hear F-bombs getting dropped all day long in “professional” settings like law offices, which is something I grew up understanding to be totally “unprofessional.” Firing someone for a miscommunication grounded in a culture/generation gap is seriously harsh (especially someone new to workplace norms) and I would have stuck up for Wendy whether I was in a position of power or not.

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      1. Sashaa*

        If it was just said to her boss or peers, I agree just a teaching moment/reprimand. But she said it to a client! And apparently then repeated it online and in some other undefined public spheres as well.

        Saying “I think Judge Smith is a fucking legend” to your colleagues in the office is probably ok. Junior counsel yelling “you’re a fucking ledge, mate!” across a courtroom when Judge Smith is summing up, is probably going to cause some ripples. Do it multiple times and you’ll be heading for the door.

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      2. Qwerty*

        Using the c-word at work has resulted in immediate firing in each of the (few) cases I’ve heard of, regardless of it was as a sexist insult or someone throwing it around in casual conversation.

        If you are going to “reclaim” a word, you have know the impact it has on others. People have been “reclaiming” b—h for decades but if you use the word to describe your boss with clients, you are most likely going to be fired. Every online community that uses this phrase (except this site) shows a lot of awareness of how that slang will sound to other people. On most sites the people using it “positively” are even still censoring it!

        Impact matters more than intent. Every dude who has harassed me at work claims it that they were being positive/friendly/complimentary – so according to you that’s just a culture gap?

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        1. RobinR*

          The specific phrase Wendy used has roots in queer and Black communities so yes, in this specific instance it is 100% a culture gap.

          That is not the same thing as someone intentionally using a word to harm/harass and then claiming it’s just a misunderstanding. Ballroom culture (where the term originated from) has it’s own dialect.

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          1. Strive to Excel*

            I’m a woman. I have only been called a c*** affectionally/positively once, and it was with a reasonably close friend. I have been called c*** several times by either men attempting to make sexual advances or when I’ve irritated them. Random strangers in public. Whether or not Wendy meant it to harass or harm, it is still used in contexts of harassment and harm.

            A person can decide to reclaim a word for themselves or join with a group of others to reclaim it in a space. But you can’t do it for someone else, and definitely not to someone else without their consent.

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            1. RobinR*

              1000% agree!

              But, and also: saying that someone using a phrase from a cultural dialect is the same thing as someone using a word with the intent to harm and/or offend is not true! A man intending to harm/offend someone is not the same thing as a person using a phrase in a positive way. The person being addressed is *still allowed to decide they don’t want that phrase aimed at them* that is perfectly valid and totally true!

              But they are not at all the same thing, which is a conflation I’m seeing a *lot* of here.

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    11. Smurfette*

      I’ve heard the phrase, but only because I have a 16yo kid who uses it with their friends and has occasionally said it in front of me.

      I just asked them if they would use this term at their workplace (if they had a workplace – they do not), and they said, no, absolutely not; it’s totally inappropriate for work.

      It sucks that someone who is nice and does good work has lost their job, but it does seem like incredibly poor judgement – saying it discretely to a similar aged friend is one thing, saying it to clients and *posting it online* seems really clueless. And highly regulated industries are often more conservative, and less likely to be forgiving of this type of thing.

      I’m not in the US, UK, or anywhere else mentioned by other commenters, but for context – c*nt is considered incredibly vulgar and offensive in my country. And when it is used as an insult, it’s directed at both men and women.

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    13. Hosta*

      I feel for her. But the c word is one of the “worst words” in the English language in the US. I work in a field where the F word is dropped pretty casually. I would never in a million years say the C word at work. I’ve heard it a few times but always as a quote of what someone else said and always when that someone else was from a culture where it carried less baggage and also when the person who said the word was being painted in a bad light.

      I wasn’t even willing to Google that phrase on my work laptop.

      I find it better to stay away from all but the most common slang at work. There’s the risk of offending someone, but more practically a lot of teams these days are multicultural and slang often doesn’t translate directly so there’s more miscommunications.

      Reply ↓
  11. noachooforyou*

    For the last letter writer, you can file unemployment but depending on your state and if your previous employer appeals it, you won’t get it. I’m in Ohio and got fired for attendance points because I had the flu then got secondary bronchitis and ended up in the emergency room getting all kinds of testing and treatments. I had a doctors note keeping me out of work for 10 more days but because I had been too sick to find my own coverage on the 3 days I called out, I first was suspended for a week then once I gave them the doctors note they ghosted me for 8 days then fired me the day I was supposed to be put back on the schedule for the following week.

    I am fighting to get unemployment. Which is also only $133 a week because Ohio thinks people can live off of that. What makes this even worse is 1) I got sick with the flu because people came to work sick all the time because we did not have enough people to cover shifts and people were scared to get fired and 2) The testing at the emergency room found some serious health conditions and possible cancer and since I got fired from my low wage job where I lived paycheck to paycheck and unemployment is saying I don’t qualify I’m about to be homeless with my child while facing possible paralysis due to severe spinal issues and possible thyroid cancer.

    Reply ↓
    1. Meat Oatmeal*

      Oh my god. I’m so sorry about that. I don’t know anything about housing options in Ohio, and I fervently hope you don’t have cancer, but if you do end up having cancer, I recommend contacting https://www.cancersupportcommunity.org/get-support
      It won’t be everything you need, far from it, but they do offer some free stuff that I found helpful, and there are locations in Ohio.

      Reply ↓
      1. noachooforyou*

        Thank you!! I too, fervently hope I do not have cancer. :D Seriously though, thank you for the link. If I don’t need it for myself I will share it with others.

        Reply ↓
        1. hopeItsNotCancer*

          A bit off topic, but I, too, hope you don’t have cancer. But if you *do* have Thyroid cancer, you should know that it’s one of the more treatable ones. Thyca.org has information. And good luck with your other health issues.

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          1. Irish Teacher.*

            Yep, I had thyroid cancer and assuming it is papillary or follicular cancer noachooforyou may have, it…isn’t really at all what one thinks of when one hears the word “cancer.” That’s not to play down the seriousness of this. Given everything else they are dealing with, they definitely don’t need any kind of cancer, but just to say that it is unlikely to be life-threatening and usually doesn’t require ongoing treatment.

            Still not fun, but…more on a par with something like needing an appendix removed or something like that than with some of the more life-threatening cancers. Still worse than that because of the ongoing risk of recurrence, but…mostly a matter of having the thyroid removed and then dealing with life without a thyroid, which might mean no change beyond taking medication once a day (pretty much my experience) or might mean a fair bit of adjustment.

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          2. Insulindian Phasmid*

            I know two separate people who have had complete recoveries from thyroid cancer and neither even had to do chemo. Not that it makes it any less scary.

            Reply ↓
    3. TGIF*

      Wow I’m really sorry, I also hope you don’t have cancer good lord! But I would look into suing that company, employment lawyers work on contingency and this sounds it borders on illegal, since technically with all that you are disabled and I think fall under that protected class. And I would do it sooner rather than later because pretty soon none of these previous protected classes will be protected anymore if the current administration keeps on going with their shenanigans.

      Reply ↓
    4. Jen MaHRtini*

      In addition to consulting with an employment lawyer you could reach out to a human interest reporter at a local newspaper or TV station. Sometimes getting bad publicity and losing business will push employers to do the right thing.

      Reply ↓
    5. I went to school with only 1 Jennifer*

      I’m very sorry about your health challenges.

      But I have to disagree with “and if your previous employer appeals it, you won’t get it”. This probably depends a lot on what state you’re in. I was denied UI once because the employer mixed up SSN’s when they responded to the state. I appealed that and won. The judge was extremely reasonable and very much on the employee’s side.

      Reply ↓
      1. No Achoo for You*

        I’m in Ohio and it’s really hard to get unemployment. we have almost zero workers rights. I was officially fired for using all my attendance points and even though the attendance policy isn’t fair, it’s the policy so they can fire me for it. It’s unfortunately the law.

        Reply ↓
  12. learnedthehardway*

    OP#2 – that’s a truly terrible interview question, UNLESS you are hiring for a music group.

    Any candidate asked is going to think you are out to lunch for asking the question. It would raise real concerns about whether you know your business or are a decent manager.

    How someone answers is far more likely to reflect what instrument they feel they could play or if they feel they have a good singing voice, rather than anything to do with their actual confidence. Even if they say that they would be the lead singer, it will likely because they saw through your question, and expect you want to gauge their confidence – eg. if it is a sales job, they’ll KNOW you’re looking for that.

    Ask for examples of how people have displayed the qualities you want to measure – you’ll get a better read on their capabilities.

    Reply ↓
    2. lanfy*

      Absolutely. My response would be ‘singer’, but it’s not because I have any level of social confidence. I’m a nerdy ADHD introvert and if you tried to put me in any customer-facing role *everyone* would be unhappy. Possibly including bystanders ten miles away.

      It’s because I can’t play any instruments, but although I’m not a singer I have a decent voice and can make a good fist of songs from genres from folk to rap (I’ve memorised most of ‘Hamilton’ and can do Lafayette’s part in ‘Guns and Ships’, accent and all). So with a bit of training I reckon I could hold up my end there. And nowhere else.

      Reply ↓
      1. Irish Teacher.*

        Honestly, I’d probably want to be a singer because…I have no real interest in music as music. The songs I like, I like them for the stories they tell and I have no interest in learning to read music or anything like that. (Really, I’d want to be the songwriter and just let other people do everything except write the lyrics.) But to me, the importance of a song is the meaning of the words and I would want to be the one putting emphasis on the significant words, etc.

        Admittedly, that might say something about me, but…probably not what others might immediately assume.

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    3. Nightengale*

      well and if you are hiring for a music group – the specific genre of music group that includes guitars, percussion and vocals – your candidate probably already has a musical specialty which you know before bringing them in for an audition/interview.

      I haven’t played violin since high school but if I were being assessed for an orchestra it wouldn’t be “what instrument would you play?” it would be “can you play violin well enough for our orchestra.”

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    4. Sashaa*

      Yep this is a “happy hour/training day icebreaker” question, not an interview question!

      It also assumes everyone likes rock music, and lots of people don’t. I like techno, which is generally written and produced by one person on a synthesiser/drum machine. Which says nothing about my personality at all! I don’t like to work alone, don’t like being my own boss, or any other thing you might infer from it. I just like dancing to techno, and don’t really like most guitar music.

      Reply ↓
  13. Guitarist*

    “A person who picks drums is someone who can keep a project moving and is reliable but is not necessarily out front leading, for example.”

    A reliable drummer? Where do I find one?

    Reply ↓
    2. el l*

      Yeah, as with any interview question, it’s important to think carefully and first about what you’re trying to get.

      Because confidence is a terrible thing to test for here. Think about if you use this question and hire all lead singers. Nothing good will ever get done.

      Reply ↓
    4. Sharon*

      A perfect example of why this is a terrible question. One person may be thinking the drummer shows reliability while another person thinks of Animal from the Muppets.

      Reply ↓
    5. Office Plant Queen*

      My mind definitely didn’t go to any kind of metaphor with the instruments lol. I was thinking that I wouldn’t pick drummer because I’m not coordinated enough to play drums! I can keep a beat, but doing different things with each of my hands would probably be a mess. And I know from singing in choirs that I’m very prone to getting pulled off key by another section right next to me, so I wouldn’t have high hopes of not being swayed by the other instruments. And even though I’ve been a singer before, I have zero interest in signing solo because it’s very hard to control my breath when I’m nervous, and also my voice is super airy and not well suited to most styles of contemporary music. I guess if I had to pick I’d choose one of the guitars? Between the two I have no idea what the practical (or metaphorical) differences are, but I’d probably pick bass because my brother knows how to play it and could help me learn

      Reply ↓
  14. Viki*

    I’m not sure how much advocating you could do on Wendy. There are some things, and I hire and train co-op students (so age 19-24), that you really shouldn’t have to explain. C**** is still a charged word that not all of her friends or people her age would appreciate getting called.

    I’m thinking of it as telling someone they have to wear pants in the office. Would I fire someone first time? Probably not. But if they were doing it multiple times and in front of the CEO? Yeah.

    Wendy called Caitlin a c****, several times. Even if she meant it as a compliment, she cannot possibly be that naive to know that there is a vast population where it’s not one.

    (For what it’s worth, I’m 32 and also would not find it a compliment.)

    Reply ↓
    1. renata ricotta*

      Im 36 and although I am familiar with the jargon and know what she means, I still really wouldn’t appreciate it; my visceral reaction to the c-word is too ingrained. And even if I didn’t have that reaction personally, it would be a good indication that she doesn’t have the first clue about implementing a verbal filter in the professional workplace (and perhaps isn’t interested in acquiring one).

      Reply ↓
      1. Starbuck*

        Even as someone who likes and uses and hears the phrase – I would not appreciate someone telling me I am doing that in the workplace! Honestly even the sentiment, swear word aside, is not one that is really germane. I do not want to be told how hot I am looking at work.

        Reply ↓
        1. Knope Knope Knope*

          Does it mean hot? I’m old and genuinely don’t understand this term, so thank you for enlightening me.

          Reply ↓
          1. Mutually Supportive*

            I don’t think it does mean hot – or at least, that’s not the explanation that Alison gave.

            Reply ↓
            1. Starbuck*

              Alison gave an ok definition but it’s missing a bit of nuance. It’s definitely an appearance/sexuality focused compliment, not just about ~attitude~

              Reply ↓
          4. bamcheeks*

            It’s not really “hot” — the ur-use is drag queens telling each other, “You look amazing and your attitude is fierce”. So it’s a compliment for your general presence and attitude rather than “you are sexually attractive to me”, but like, it should not take much imagination to realise that even if you admire a senior woman at work and would tell your friend she’s serving c***, you don’t repeat it round the office and especially not to clients, good heavens.

            Reply ↓
        2. MassMatt*

          Yeah, sexually and politically charged terminology from drag culture is really not a good basis for compliments and don’t belong in most workplaces.

          The terms have very specific meanings, and are likely to be misused by people outside the subculture and especially misunderstood by people hearing them, as was the case here.

          Reply ↓
          1. Andromeda Carr*

            This is the other comment which I would put at the top of the discussion as one of the two morals of Wendy’s story.

            It’s interesting to read this discussion, where some people are saying “this is where the term comes from” and others are expressing visceral and even universal horror with it. I don’t think anyone is actually defending Wendy’s huge and compounded errors in judgement in using the term at work, but it’s interesting how explanation can be seen as defense.

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      2. Nancy*

        Agreed. To me it’s kind of like how some people argue that the N-word said by certain people in certain situation’s is perfectly acceptable. I don’t know about that.

        Reply ↓
        1. Account*

          That’s a pretty good analogy actually. Because people can use it all they want in their social life, but it is definitely conceivable that someone would be fired the first time they used it at work. Even if it was a compliment.

          Reply ↓
      3. Tea for Two*

        I have mixed feelings about reclamation in general, but I do think it’s interesting how this conversation mirrors conversatioms about the word “queer.” And especially how there remains a substantial population of people for whom that term can’t ever be reclaimed from violent associatoons—and how that population’s opinion has largely become socially obsolete as younger generations freely identify themselves as queer (as I do, too).

        I don’t know whether “the c-word” (God, I hate that variety of self-censorship, but I guess the filter likes it) will be successfully reclaimed or not. Nor do I know whether, if it is, I’ll be stuck in the position of the oldef generation who continues to dislike modern uses of “queer”–uncomfortable and overlooked. Could be I’ll get used to it if it becomes socially prominent, who knows.

        But ultimately, while Wendy misjudged badly, she’s really not in a unique position. Words get reclaimed; semantics get bleached. The insinuations from various commenters that this is uniquely shocking — or an imposition solely from cis men on cis women — feel unsettling. Being on the edge of a semantic shift is often uncomfortable. Her error is surprising in its extreme overreach (I am personally surprised there are any social groups that don’t parse the word is shocking to outsiders), but normal in type.

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        2. Time for a nap*

          I think one difference from the reclamation of the word “queer” is the size and interconnectedness of the communities involved. (Ok, two differences.) The C-word has historically been a misogynistic term directed at a full 50% of the population, orders of magnitude larger than the (out) queer population, and while there’s plenty of lip service to sisterhood, women gotta stick together, etc., we are just not as interlinked on the whole as the queer community is. Any effort to reclaim the C-word might take root in smaller female/femme subcommunities or pockets of women, but I have a really hard time imagining that you could get even a large percentage of the world’s ~675 million English-speaking women onboard. If there’s any semantic shift, it’ll be part of (almost) every curse word’s long-term downward trend in shock value, not because a particular subcommunity made it acceptable to the rest of the population.

          Reply ↓
    2. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Yeah, it’s not like the word isn’t still being used derogatorily. And like, Wendy, come on! You are in corporate now, you should know not to bring casual slang to the office.

      Reply ↓
      1. The Prettiest Curse*

        Hopefully, Wendy will look back on this 10 years from now and wonder what on earth was I thinking?” It’s definitely better to learn a lesson like this early in your career.

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    3. Tokei*

      I know what it means and WOULD take it as a compliment if directed at me… but would still tell a junior employee who said it “wow, thanks, but you can’t say that at work.” The lack of good judgement is mind-boggling!

      Reply ↓
      1. londonedit*

        I’m feeling very old because this is the first time I’ve ever encountered this phrase…but yeah, however it’s intended, definitely poor judgement to use it at work. I said further up but I do think firing Wendy just for using the word was OTT – I know you can be fired for just about anything in the US, so maybe it’s not surprising, but I think here in the UK it would definitely be more of an HR-led investigation, find out what Wendy actually meant by the phrase, then a frank conversation about workplace norms and acceptable language. Possibly a formal warning not to use the c-word in the workplace again. It would be a serious matter here, I think, but you couldn’t/wouldn’t fire someone on the spot. It’d be a disciplinary thing and a ‘don’t do that again, it’s not acceptable language for the workplace’.

        Reply ↓
        1. bamcheeks*

          Technically, I’m pretty sure you could fire someone on the spot for this– both because Wendy is probably in her first two years of employment and therefore has very few rights, and also because I think an employer could quite legitimately argue that calling someone a c*** at work was gross misconduct. Wendy could potentially take that to tribunal, and I frankly would be fascinated to see which way “she called someone a c***” / “no I meant it as a compliment” would go!

          Reply ↓
          1. londonedit*

            Yeah, I was back-and-forth about it! I do think my own industry is slightly more relaxed about these things and I can’t imagine someone being fired on the spot – we’re a bit more touchy-feely and I think it’d be dealt with as more of a ‘let’s find out why this happened and make sure it doesn’t happen again’ thing. But in more formal industries I can imagine it might rise to gross misconduct (though I’d expect Wendy to at least have a chance to try to explain herself).

            Reply ↓
          2. londonedit*

            I seem to have a response that’s taking ages to get through moderation for some reason, but I was going to say that I was wavering a bit about whether to say you couldn’t/wouldn’t fire someone for this, because of the point about them being there less than two years etc. I also think it’s an industry thing – publishing is quite touchy-feely and I think this would definitely be dealt with as a serious conversation and maybe a formal warning, rather than as gross misconduct. I also think Wendy would definitely be given a chance to explain and apologise. But in a more formal industry I can totally imagine someone being fired straight off.

            Reply ↓
            1. Sashaa*

              See, working in advertising, if you said this in the office people might roll their eyes. Say it to a client though? You’d be gone.

              Because what the heck might you come out with next, if you think calling your boss a c* in front of a client is ok?

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              1. londonedit*

                Yeah, I think a lot of this depends on the part that was slightly unclear – I don’t know what the OP means when they say that Caitlin was upset because Wendy was saying it to people including ‘clients and online’. Online?? I can’t imagine what sort of scenario it would be where Wendy was a) using this phrase more than once and b) using it with clients and online. But also, if Wendy was routinely saying this, why did no one take it up with her? This is why I’m saying someone wouldn’t be fired on the spot where I work, because what would have happened would be that Wendy, in a general meeting including clients, said ‘Oh yeah, Caitlin’s amazing, she’s totally serving c***!’, everyone exchanged raised eyebrows, and someone – anyone – immediately after the meeting said to Wendy ‘Look, I get that you were trying to compliment Caitlin, but you cannot ever use the c-word in a meeting again. Especially not in a meeting where clients are present’. And then that would have been that. If you then discovered Wendy was continuing to use the phrase, you’d sit down for a formal disciplinary meeting with her. And if she still continued, then yes, you’d probably fire her. I just can’t imagine firing her straight off the bat without a ‘Hey, we don’t use that language here’ discussion. But then I also can’t imagine how or why Wendy would be using the phrase multiple times across multiple platforms.

                Reply ↓
                1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

                  That presumes no one spoke to Wendy. If someone did and she continued to use the phrase, that would be an immediate firing in most industries.

    4. Nebula*

      I’m familiar with the phrase and if someone said it about me or anyone else at work I’d be really disconcerted, even knowing that it’s a compliment. Since I know what it means, I’d probably take them aside and tell them not to say it and why not, but I’d be really surprised to even have to tell someone no, you should not be using the c-word at work, let alone using it to refer to someone else.

      Reply ↓
    5. Velawciraptor*

      To be clear: Wendy didn’t call Caitlyn the C word. She said she was serving C word. I understand that’s not how it was taken, but misquoting the letter writer and mischaracterizing Wendy’s actual words is unfair

      Reply ↓
    6. Ann O'Nemity*

      “I’m not sure how much advocating you could do on Wendy.”

      Eh, you could explain that the phrase in question is actually a popular meme 100% meant as a compliment, and that Gen Z intern “Wendy” needs coaching on professional norms and how to transition from college to career.

      Speaking from experience, as I work year-round with a team of 5–8 interns, memes and slang spread incredibly fast, especially the edgier ones. These students (and yes, they’re still kids in many ways!) often need some guidance when it comes to professionalism.

      There’s also a tendency among college students to reclaim words or expressions with a sense of empowerment, without always recognizing that context is everything. I could easily imagine a well-meaning but naive Wendy saying something like, “I’m a feminist, yes queen, serve c***!” without realizing how out of place that language can be in a professional environment.

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      1. Alan*

        Yeah, having spent the last couple years mentoring fresh-outs, it’s really interesting how they can go from being brilliant beyond their years to completely clueless in the blink of an eye. The momentum is on their side though. I know so many bright and capable and really inspiring millenials and Gen-Zers. We oldsters are leaving the world in good (arguably much better) hands.

        Reply ↓
        1. londonedit*

          As an ancient Millennial, thanks (I suppose) – but some of us are in our mid-40s and well beyond the ‘bright and capable’ phase of our careers. Bit patronising.

          Reply ↓
          1. Alan*

            Sorry about that. Most of the ones I know are at the opposite end (i.e., 28+). Part of this is in response to all the boomers and GenXers complaining about millennials.

            Reply ↓
      2. Fíriel*

        I think this is pretty much exactly what should be said – and I’d add, for the record, that while I would never have said it in a professional context(!) I am really shocked as a queer woman a few years older than Wendy by how many people here apparently have never encountered this slang before. I definitely would have assumed it was relatively well understood, even if inappropriate. I guess it must be really generational.

        Reply ↓
        1. Angstrom*

          Generational, social media use, TV watching preferences, do/do not have or work with kids, subculture affiliations…. To know slang you have to be exposed to it.

          “Everyone I know” is actually a tiny fraction of the population. :-)

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        2. I Have RBF*

          Yeah, this was the first I’d heard it, but I can’t stand TikTok anyway (I’m not into whacky video.) While I am in queer and alternative spaces, I don’t attend drag shows or burlesque, and don’t instantly adopt slang. I finally have adopted “yeet” as a valid “casual word.”

          I think about my great-grandboss, a very sharp, technically savvy woman. I might, in private conversation, refer to her as a “Badass B*tch”, but I would never do it in a meeting or to customers.

          I am a white enby, but even I “code switch”. There is no way I would use some of my in-group slang at work. (Example: we have a way of saying “woodchipper” that is both humorous and menacing, and not work appropriate.)

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        3. RussianInTexas*

          I am a Xennial in the US, pretty online (although I refuse TikTok) and literally, today was the first time ever I have encountered it. I sort of understood what it meant from the context, but it would be extremely jarring to hear IRL. Not a single person in my environment uses the phrase. And no, my environment is not all cis white people.
          I have never watched Ru Paul nor listen to Chappell Roan, so there is that.

          Reply ↓
    7. Emily Byrd Starr*

      Now I’m just curious: when you say “telling someone they need to wear pants,” are you saying that the person was wearing a dress or skirt instead of pants, or that they were nude from the waist down? The former doesn’t sound like such a terrible thing, but the latter is just SO inappropriate and something that everyone has known was inappropriate since preschool. If someone came to work with no clothing below the waist, or even with just underpants but nothing over them, that should be grounds for termination immediately!

      Reply ↓
    8. Atalanta0jess*

      maybe this is silly to bother pointing out, but NO, she didn’t CALL her a c***. She said she was SERVING c***. It’s really really different, and I get that’s the point of this whole convo, but it’s itneresting to see people persisting in saying things like this (“she called her a c*** several times”) when in fact she called her that zero times.

      Reply ↓
      1. Angstrom*

        What Caitlin heard and processed is all that really matters. If the only context someone has is that the word is a vile insult, that is what they are going to hear.

        Reply ↓
        1. Saw Palmetto*

          Similarly, saying “he’s a N-word” isn’t quite the same as “he’s my N-word”. They will come across the same way, and neither ends well.
          Please note that I do not say either!

          Reply ↓
  15. learnedthehardway*

    OP#4 – if you don’t want to discuss your current salary, tell the what you would be comfortable with making (and perhaps let them know you have flexibility for the right opportunity). The recruiter / HR person likely won’t be able to move forward without some indication that you’re going to be affordable.

    If you’re significantly more senior than the role, also tell the recruiter why you are interested – and make sure it is because you want to do the role at the level/mandate that is being hired. I’ve had candidates tell me reasons that made me immediately reject them, because it was clear that they did not actually want the role on offer or were not actually going to accept the compensation range for the role.

    Personally, as a recruiter, I ask these questions (where it is legal) because I don’t want to waste the candidate’s or the hiring manager’s time if there is a compensation mismatch. I also want to know whether the company is offering a realistic salary range – I recently was able to report back (based on actual interviews) that my client was offering $50K less than they should be – they ended up reclassifying the position.

    If you want to be seriously considered for the role, you’re going to have to have a conversation about compensation before the recruiter will present you to the hiring manager.

    Reply ↓
    1. Velawciraptor*

      If you don’t want to waste anyone’s time, why wouldn’t you just divulge the employer’s salary range? I work for the state so all of our salary ranges are public information and I do not understand the corporate tendency to play hide the ball with this. I don’t understand how the employer this letter writer is talking to doesn’t know what their salary range is. You have a budget, so you have to have some idea of what you are planning on paying. Why is it so hard to just be upfront about things rather than putting everything on the candidate?

      Reply ↓
      1. learnedthehardway*

        There are several reasons for this – one is that the company doesn’t want to pay more than they have to. That’s a bad reason, but it’s a reason.

        Better reasons include the following:
        – the company doesn’t want to divulge details of their compensation to the competition. That can be strategic information that the company feels is important to recruitment, and also to the business overall.
        – telling candidates that the range is $X to $Y sets the expectation in candidates’ minds that the compensation will be $Y. Not realistic, but it happens. Then you run into issues when you make an offer – even if the candidate’s qualifications and experience align with the salary you offer. Unless the offered salary is at the top of the band, they feel short-changed.
        – a candidate who requests a much lower or higher compensation than they should be asking for – that tells me something about them. It’s not a clear indicator of anything, but someone who tells they expect a salary that is wildly out of alignment with their qualifications is an indicator for me to probe further.

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        1. Ginger Cat Lady*

          None of those are good reasons.
          – Pay market rates, don’t try to use salaries strategically. That’s silly, word gets out and it’s illegal to tell employees they cannot discuss it. It’s not *possible* for salary information to be proprietary.
          – Again, if you’re not actually going to pay people $Y don’t put it in the salary range. Your salary range needs to be as realistic as you think employee’s expectations should be.
          – If it’s not a “clear indicator” then it tells you NOTHING.
          Stop playing guessing games.

          Reply ↓
          1. 2 Cents*

            It’s usually only a “clear indicator” that the person is a woman or a minority, since those groups routinely are penalized for negotiating or asking for salaries that white men do.

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      2. State worker*

        I came here to say the same thing. I’m also in a state with pay transparency laws so even in the private sector salary ranges are posted up front. I don’t believe an organization is really going through multiple interview rounds without considering what they are willing to pay for the position. It sounds like they are trying to get the LW’s experience for the least possible amount. To me, that’s an indication that they don’t value their employees.

        Reply ↓
  16. slay serve survive*

    #1: Gen-Z here and I genuinely jaw dropped. There’s no way I’d ever consider using “serving c-” in a professional setting.

    I do feel for Wendy though. Once, in a social bar setting, I told somebody “I like your fit” and the person thought I was commenting on her physique. It’s definitely made me think twice about using slang and thankfully it wasn’t anything as bad.

    Reply ↓
    1. UKDancer*

      Yeah I would have made the same assumption in the bar situation as well. I don’t know what “fit” means in that context. I am not Gen-Z and am not down with the kids but it’s not an expression that has made it to my knowledge. So I’m not surprised the person you talked to didn’t know what you meant. I must google the expression.

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        1. Sashaa*

          Just very unfortunate that in the UK “you’re fit” means “you are hot”. And that is likely what they heard: “blah blah blah your fit”….

          Reply ↓
          2. Emily Byrd Starr*

            I’m in the US, and I’ve only ever heard “fit” to mean “hot” or “in good physical shape.”

            Reply ↓
            1. Emily Byrd Starr*

              P.S. I’m also Gen X and not hip with the kids today. It’s only recently that I learned what “riz” means (it’s short for charisma, for those of you who don’t know).

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    2. Knope Knope Knope*

      What does like your fit mean? I also would have assumed it meant complimenting someone’s looks.

      Reply ↓
      2. cornelia street*

        In this context “fit” is short for outfit. It’s pretty common slang for millennials and younger, a related phrase is “fit check” which is an outfit-focused online post.

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        1. Geriatric Millennial*

          Maybe younger Millennials (apparently they’re now calling themselves Zillennials along with the older Gen Zs). I’ve never heard it.

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    3. CityMouse*

      I learned there’s also a risk in making a reference as one time I once joked “Looked like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffing glue” at work. I’m a millennial but I was actually referring a movie that’s almost a decade older than I am (“Airplane”). But the person I was talking to didn’t get the reference and it was a bit of an awkward moment.

      So point is, don’t assume people will get your references.

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      1. Petty Officer*

        Hah! I’ve been using “Looked like I picked the wrong week to quit amphetamines” a lot at work recently myself!

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    4. Rebecca*

      Millennial here, I know the phrase, know it’s not an insult, and have used it with my girlfriends, usually after a few glasses of wine. I would be wildly uncomfortable if anybody used it in a work context – or any context really other than close friends or irreverent tiktok videos.

      Wendy’s problem is not understanding that context matters. There’s a reason we code switch and use different tones and communication styles with different people and situations. The same girlfriend howling with me over using that phrase would absolutely stop using it if, say, one of my clients happened to walk into the same bar.

      My concern with Wendy wouldn’t be the phrase itself, it would be about her judgement and ability to use appropriate communication and predict when there might be problems. There are probably people out there who really believe that she was calling her boss a C, and the optics and results of that are way more important than whether her boss knows it was intended as an insult or not.

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      1. Alan*

        Yeah, I’m often surprised at my millenial daughter’s ability to code switch. She’s the one who taught me “serving c—” and a few other things, some of which I use at work to amuse the new hires and baffle my peers, but I’ve heard her at work and she turns all that off for her job; she’s incredibly professional and sounds much older than her years. I’ve observed the same thing about other young people at work. They’re very, very guarded in what they say at work, bordering on boring, when I know that in person they’re fun, lively people. You’ve got to know your audience. I still feel bad for Wendy.

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      2. CityMouse*

        I’m a lawyer and we’re a very sweary bunch in private but you never swear outside of an internal meeting and never, ever, in front of a judge or client. You have to learn to code switch.

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      3. Observer*

        My concern with Wendy wouldn’t be the phrase itself, it would be about her judgement and ability to use appropriate communication and predict when there might be problems. There are probably people out there who really believe that she was calling her boss a C, and the optics and results of that are way more important than whether her boss knows it was intended as an insult or not

        This is an excellent summary of the problem. LW, *this* is a key lesson that you could take forward with your future mentees. People *need* to think about how the things they say will be taken. *Especially* when you are talking about other people who are likely to bear the brunt of your statements.

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    5. Lab Boss*

      I volunteer with college students so I get exposed to the waves of slang. I liked “fit.” I showed up in a suit and one said “I love the fit” and I said “Thanks.”

      Now, when one of them complimented my “drip” I had to ask what the sweet hell that was supposed to mean (it means outfit also, but is just more confusing).

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    6. TeaMonk*

      Yea if I don’t understand what someone said I just ask. I wouldn’t say serving c at work but I’m not shocked that slang and words used by subcultures exist unlike many here. Professional language can be a monster to learn for some and there’s no one professional language that works for everywhere . I’m 40, but I can still learn things

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    7. Mamma Mia!*

      Thanks for weighing in, Gen-Zer! I’m a millennial and was fascinated by whether or not the word had managed to completely shed its previous mainstream US definition within one generation.

      For what it’s worth, I was a sheltered child of Asian immigrants and encountered this word for the first time in middle school, when I was asking my friend about an album review I’d read in the newspaper for Liz Phair’s then-new CD — It had referred to one of the tracks as “Hot White C-” and I didn’t know any words that began with C that would warrant censoring. I asked my friend what this word was and he could barely even say it because it was SO bad (though Google tells me now that this is actually a different c-word, and we’ve been mistaken all this time!). Over two decades letter, I still remember him stammering to say it. Because of that particular moment, I understood the word to be very offensive, but I heard it so rarely in my life before the past decade or so that I’m not sure I would’ve gathered just how vulgar it is (or was) had it not been for that moment. (I probably would have at some point inferred it’s not a word you say in polite company, though — Thanks, 30 Rock!)

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      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        LOL! I also know about that Liz Phair song, and no, it’s not the C word that rhymes with “hunt.” It’s the C word that rhymes with “rum.”

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      2. Cacofonix*

        Thank goodness for Gen Z readers. C- has such an abhorrent misogynist during most of our living generations that even knowing now that “Serving C-“ is intended to be complimentary, I’d still be deeply offended if someone used it with me, even a close friend or younger family member, never mind at work. At least now, I’d know to take a breath, coach and listen to an apology first. I have a poor opinion of women “reclaiming” words like this that were never appropriate to apply to women – ever – in English. It just highlights inequality of women in society and at work and degrades them even more.

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    8. Elbe*

      Yeah, I agree that this was a Wendy problem. I feel bad for her because her intentions were good, but this is really unacceptable in a work environment. It’s a harsh lesson, but she needs to realize that work isn’t TikTok. Hopefully she’ll develop the self-awareness to understand how things like that can be perceived by others.

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  17. Raida*

    3. I think my manager wants me to be a different person

    Set up a time for a coffee with them and go through each thing, bullet point style.

    Tell them directly “I worked through the feedback and these are the ones that I either am unclear on the meaning, unclear on the purpose, or actually do not know what they mean.”

    And keep going, looking for specifics – “For this, is that to mean that I have negatively impacted the collegiate environment, or that I have not actively improved it? If the former, how and when? If the latter, what specific tasks or actions do you define as adding to the collegiate environment?”
    If they don’t like it, you just keep being *super clear* that the purpose of the reviews is surely to clarify the current performance, to allow improvement and acknowledgement of good work. So, you *need* to understand the feedback and yo u*need* to know what improvement looks like in order to raise the performance review in the future.

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    1. Arrietty*

      This sounds like it’s bordering on malicious compliance. Yes, asking for feedback and clarification is a good idea, but you’re suggesting labouring the point in a way that makes me think your goal is to imply the review was ridiculous, not actually to get more information.

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  18. Pumpkin cat*

    I actually kinda like the band question. I mean, most people in America have a general concept of what a rock band consists of? Lead singer, lead guitar, bass, and drums? You could include the four positions and a brief description if they seemed totally lost, or just rephrase it if they don’t get it at all. People should know they’re in an interview so not to give answers based on what they actually would do in real life.

    Like if a very junior guy says “lead singer!” with a ton of gusto, and we really need a good junior team player, maybe that’s not great. Or if someone says “bass player because I like to be in the background”, and the role really needs a star, not great. I would probably say lead guitarist, because I like to be the technical, virtuoso brains behind the operation, who gets to have ample time to show off (but doesn’t have to be the “lead”) which says a lot about me actually!

    There are some industries where it could be expected you know what a band is I bet, and could ask this question. But I do admit I know a lot about music (and honestly about so many things, I’m pretty well-rounded).

    Reply ↓
    1. But what to call me?*

      I would be completely lost about what roles are involved in a band, let alone what the implications of picking those roles might be. The best I might be able to come up with is ‘Um… drums? Because I like how they sound?’ Which probably wouldn’t get at what the interviewer wanted to know but would leave me spending days worrying that I’d missed the hidden meaning in an interview question and accidentally implied something terrible about myself.

      Reply ↓
    2. judyjudyjudy*

      This is a dreadful question, because you are making (probably nonsense) inferences about what their answer to a ridiculous hypothetical means about their ability to do a job that is not being a lead singer or drummer or whatever. It’s like deciding who would be the best baby sitter for your children based on the applicants’ favorite ice cream flavor.

      If you want a star, don’t ask them this sand trap of a question. Ask them about their skills, drive, leadership qualities, etc.

      Also, I play bass (strictly amateur) and manage a team of ten. Does playing bass mean I necessarily must be a bad leader, since “I like to be in the background”? Or does being a manager mean I must not be suited to playing bass?

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      1. Rogue Slime Mold*

        My examples of keeping a project moving for the family drummer involve his taking on a leadership role–which is apparently the opposite of drumming in this analogy?

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    3. Peregrine*

      But if you know anything about music, you wouldn’t infer that anyone but the singer wouldn’t be a leader. Often the drummer, bassist, or guitarist is the real leader, and the singer doesn’t do anything but sing! Sometimes everyone writes music and lyrics, other times one person takes the lead. Sometimes the person who sits in the back also manages all the day to day. I’d find the assumptions of the person asking the question very odd. A lot of the drummers I know are the most flamboyant people in their bands!

      Reply ↓
      1. UKDancer*

        Yes I read an interview with Roger Taylor from Queen and he said John Deacon the bass player was the one who kept them on track financially, worked out what they could afford ensured they filed accounts etc. Just because he was quieter didn’t mean he wasn’t powerful in the group.

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      2. Never the Twain*

        Karen Carpenter was a drummer and lead vocalist, but she was still only the third most important member of a duo.

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    4. Allonge*

      How does this help with hiring e.g. a good stage manager though? If you are interested in people’s approach to work or preferences on being in the spotlight or not, ask about that directly, not something that may or may not mean the same thing to them as you.

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    5. AcademiaNut*

      It’d make a good Cosmo or Buzzfeed quiz (or wherever people are doing silly personality quizzes these days). Not for actually hiring people who are good at their job.

      Even if, hypothetically, someone’s choice of instrument mapped one to one with their career goals and self image, people’s self image can be wildly out of wack, and it would be about as useful as describing yourself as “detail oriented” or “good with people” – easy to state, hard to evaluate.

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      1. Antilles*

        The last paragraph is especially true if you-the-interviewer describes the band roles before asking someone to pick. Why? Because the respondent is going to listen to your descriptions and pick an answer that they think you want to hear based on the way you phrase it and their understanding of the role, regardless of whether “lead vocals” really would represent their working style or not.

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    7. Mobie's Mom*

      Yeah, it’s not a great interview question, but I think people here are being unnecessarily harsh to the letter-writer who sounds like s/he’s got a lot of thinking time and thought it was something fun to share in this forum! We can agree it’s not actually a good interview question, but still a fun exercise! I, myself, would be the bassist, I think – kinda background, but keeping things solid, and you’d miss it if it weren’t there. I also saw that someone had answered “roadie”, which would also describe me – behind-the-scenes, doing the necessary but typically unglamorous, unseen, unappreciated things!

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      1. WellRed*

        I agree. It’s not really worse than questions about trees or animals. At least it’s about people in a collaborative working group.

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      2. Ex-Teacher*

        >We can agree it’s not actually a good interview question, but still a fun exercise!

        It might be fun to think about but it really doesn’t actually tell you anything meaningful about the professional environment. On stage the bassist may not traditionally be the person front and center, but they could very well be the primary songwriter, or the publicity person, or the primary person who books gigs and interfaces with clients.

        What a person does in a performance doesn’t do anything to enlighten their actual skillset.

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        1. Allonge*

          Not to mention, if anyone thinks ‘bass guitarist in a band’ counts as a background position, they never met a shy person.

          My actual shy person colleague would faint at the thought of being on stage unless to set up the sound equipment before the concert starts.

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    8. Greige*

      “People should know they’re in an interview so not to give answers based on what they actually would do in real life.”

      As the hiring manager, understanding what a candidate will do in real life is actually the point. That’s why behavioral questions are so widely used. It’s also why it’s important to have questions whose purpose is as clear as possible to everyone in the room. The only place for gotcha questions is a skills test, which needs to be a clearly defined part of the process. It’s not a game show.

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    9. MsM*

      Given the decline of rock music in recent decades, I’m not sure younger Americans do have that much knowledge of how bands with instruments work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Antilles*

        In terms of listening to music, Younger Americans are far more familiar with classic rock bands than you’d think. Spotify broke down listener data a couple years back and a strong majority of Gen Z users regularly listen to rock bands. It might not be their top-top tier favorite music like it was for, idk, a kid in 1975, but they do listen to it regularly enough.

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    10. Ex-Teacher*

      >I mean, most people in America have a general concept of what a rock band consists of? Lead singer, lead guitar, bass, and drums? You could include the four positions and a brief description if they seemed totally lost, or just rephrase it if they don’t get it at all. People should know they’re in an interview so not to give answers based on what they actually would do in real life.

      The thing is, the positions in a rock band don’t have any meaningful correlation to things in an office/professional setting. What people do in a performance is very different from the day-to-day operations in a band. I’m someone who is very organized, biased for action, and takes charge of things. In most bands, I would (and actually do) play bass/drums. But off stage I’m someone who books gigs, directly interfaces with clients, runs rehearsals, and so much more.

      It’s really a terrible question based on laypeople’s misunderstandings of what it means to be a musician. It won’t tell you anything meaningful about their ability to work. Someone might say they like being a lead singer because they like to be out in front and take charge, when in reality that person is always the last to arrive at the gig (an hour late) and couldn’t be a guitarist because they would always forget their equipment. Someone’s ability to be compelling in a performance doesn’t correlate with their skill or professionalism off stage.

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    11. Andromeda Carr*

      Like if a very junior guy says “lead singer!” with a ton of gusto, and we really need a good junior team player, maybe that’s not great. Or if someone says “bass player because I like to be in the background”, and the role really needs a star, not great.

      I think with these examples you’ve demonstrated the problems with the question. To take myself as an example my strengths are in support and being a team player, but in a band I would choose lead singer because my high school instrument was voice (which is a real instrument, with training and so on). And then you’d disqualify me for that.

      Reply ↓
      1. biobotb*

        Plus apparently if pumpkin cat’s hiring for a junior role, they’re going to hold it against candidates if they are confident and answer the question as someone who may one day expect to progress in their career.

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    12. learnedthehardway*

      That’s another reason it is a bad question – it assumes that the candidate shares the same cultural understanding as the interviewer, while the cultural bits in question are irrelevant to the job.

      It’s like when standardized testing used to include mathematics questions based around sports knowledge – fine for someone who plays football, but not for anyone who doesn’t.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ex-Teacher*

        There’s not, although often times laypeople think there is.

        Which continues to illustrate why this is such a horrible question.

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    14. Irish Teacher.*

      Yeah, I think most people would realise it is asking “which of these roles most matches your work style?” and not “what instrument would you most like to play?” but…well, firstly, there are people who wouldn’t, especially those with autism or perhaps other disabilities and possibly people from other cultures.

      But also, even if people know it means the first, they are still going to answer it based on their associations with the role and those may be completely different from the interviewers. I mentioned above how my sister did a quiz thing where the word you associated with a cat was meant to indicate how you saw the person you love most and the word you associated with a rat was meant to indicate how you saw your worst enemy. Except…my sister hates cats and likes rats, so it ended up indicating she saw her worst enemy as adorable and was horrified by the person she most loved!

      And yes, you could ask for reasons, which would clarify, but…at that point what is the part about the band adding? Seems to me that “what is your work style?” or “what role do you prefer in a team?” “I tend to be a leader” gets clearer information than “based on your work style, what role would you most like to have in a four person band?” “Well, I’d like to be the lead singer because I tend to be a leader.”

      And the former also gives a wider range of possibilities.

      Not that I think that’s a great question either. I think it would be better to ask about how they contributed to a team in the past because people don’t always self-evaluate accurately. Not that they are always absolutely accurate about their past experience either, but there is less ambiguity.

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    15. biobotb*

      This is just highlighting how unhelpful this question would be. I could see using the rock band analogy to explain what kind of function the role plays on your team, but expecting someone to intuit that based on this question is… sneaky?

      Many people would probably say “lead singer” because you’re supposed to project confidence at work, regardless of your role, right? But now you’re holding that against them because you didn’t let them know you need a backup position and you’re taking this super literally.

      What if they say “drummer” because they like to keep projects on track, but you hold it against them because you’ve decided it’s not a creative role and you want to hire someone creative.

      Just explain what the role entails, for Pete’s sake. Don’t play head games.

      Reply ↓
  19. restrained zillennial*

    LW1 reminds me of all the tiktoks recently of all the “office vixen” aesthetic trends and the videos of young women who wear plunging necklines and shorts skirts who then get dress coded/are surprised to have gotten in trouble. Yikes!

    Reply ↓
      1. Media Monkey*

        my 16 year old would say office siren but she would mean a cute pair of wide leg trousers and a v neck jumper, not “sexy secretary”

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      2. Lab Boss*

        “Office Siren” sounds like someone who would announce there’s free pizza in the break room, but when you walk in you are tripped up by jagged rocks and they drown you in the sea. Modern problems require modern folklore solutions.

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        2. Buni*

          Office Scylla & Charybdis…wait, no, lots of offices feel like trying to navigate between two opposing forces, both of whom want you dead…

          Reply ↓
          1. Lab Boss*

            I was once, very breifly, forced to spend a significant amount of work time in an office immediately between a C-suite member’s office and a conference room that was doing loud social-engagement training for the sales team. That’s Office Scylla and Charybdis… or possibly just the literal, Judeo-Christian Hell.

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        3. Sashaa*

          I was thinking “fire alarm siren”, or maybe “security system siren”. What could be hotter than a blaring high-decibel alarm going off in your ear?

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    1. HonorBox*

      In this case, I think that advice isn’t totally helpful. First, because “you’re absolutely OK to drive the company vehicle home” doesn’t seem like something you’d need to clear via email. If the OP hypothetically was out of town and home was closer than going back to the office when they got home late at night, they might have just asked quickly before they left. Second, because I’m not sure it would even have helped because the boss gave the go ahead and was still told to fire the OP. An email confirmation wouldn’t protect them. Maybe it gives them evidence when they file for unemployment. But it wouldn’t necessarily have saved their job.

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    2. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      Getting it in writing wouldn’t have helped me at all. I had worked for a CPA firm for four years. It was a very small company, too small for FMLA. My father became very sick, and I arranged with a couple of the owners to take off one week, unpaid, to take care of him. During that week, I was sent an email from that company telling me that I was fired, and that I should mail them my office keys. I had forgotten that I had found out after I was working there for a few months that the owners’ agreement was that if one of them wanted to fire an employee, that employee was immediately fired. There was no discussion, no vote, no anything – that employee was GONE. I was fired by the owner who wasn’t in the office the day I got permission to take off one unpaid week.

      I was able to collect unemployment, but I had a very difficult time getting them to mail me COBRA forms. They kept forgetting to do so. But they did eventually, after they got tired of my nagging them, and I got COBRA.

      Reply ↓
  21. Yoli*

    As a former vice principal if I gave someone feedback about their collegiality it’d probably refer to:
    – shutting down others’ ideas — every school I’ve worked at has been big on collaboration and being open to doing new things for the good of the students
    – checking out when other people are talking contributing — same rationale as above
    – gaps in cultural competence — this can cover a lot of things, like modes of address, greeting people, or being able to speak to how patterns of privilege and marginalization, including within one’s own identity, impact our work (we also screen for this specifically though when hiring)

    Caveat: If one of the above were my feedback I’d name the specific example(s) rather than lump it under a vague term, but like Alison said, the best way to understand the feedback is to ask. If you don’t want to start with your principal (especially if you suspect it’s something in the vein of my third example), ask a colleague who will be honest with you. It’s a big overreaction to jump straight to leaving the school/education, and even if that does end up being the right move it will help your career in any field to practice following up on feedback and increasing your self-awareness.

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  22. Rosa*

    #4 I agree with Wendy. Your current salary might not be relevant at all to the one you’re interviewing for unless it’s an identical role. Give a range that you feel the role is worth to someone with your experience – and then of course if this is in the US you’ve got the excuse of needing to understand the whole package.

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    1. Nice cup of tea*

      I get what people are saying about stupid interview questions.

      But this is an example of how a stupid question gets people chatting and you learn something about them.

      I love the “not the drummer no car” answer. Suggests to me immediately someone who can organise practicalities and think logically.

      I imagine there are jobs where you want “a lead singer” and jobs where “a lead singer” would be a good way of screening out people who would be too much.

      I’m not really convinced that I’d be impressed if I was asked this in an interview though. Feels like an icebreaker question to me not an interview question.

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      1. Allonge*

        Getting people chatting on an online board and getting people chatting in an interview are different beasts though.

        My thing is: I interviewed for a dozen or so positions, so I don’t have a very wide experience but some. The relevant points:

        1. There is never, ever enough time. You don’t waste time with random metaphorical questions when you have 30-60 minutes to get people to somewhat relax (at least restart breathing), tell them some things about the job and the hiring process, share some info on themselves, demonstrate a few skills like ‘speaks in full sentences’, answer a few technical and a few behavioral questions and ask questions themselves. After an hour lots of people cannot pay attention, so making it longer helps very little. So adding a long discussion on clarification of our understanding of band roles and what they really mean is a no-go for that reason. If you want to know if someone prefers a background or lead role, ask that.

        2. It’s difficult enough to design and ask questions that are going to get useful answers in plain language. I had this discussion dozens of times – how do we best ask about X experience or Z preference – and no matter how carefully we ask, always, always there is an interviewee who answers a completely different question, even after we clarify. Building in a step that almost by definition will add confusion is just a waste of time.

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      2. Nightengale*

        I don’t know contemporary music (by which I define anything from around the last 50 years, roughly my lifetime) but. . . does “lead singer” have anything to do with any sort of leadership potential or capabilities otherwise? I would have assumed the lead singer was a person well able to carry a melody tune as opposed to well able to carry the harmony.

        I sing reasonably well in the genres I know (show tunes, some folk and classical) and would be comfortable singing a solo in many situations. This doesn’t really say anything about my ability to take the lead or initiative at work, or how well I work with others or anything else.

        And in this case, trying to talk about it all at a job interview would mostly mark me as someone who doesn’t understand contemporary music rather than tell you anything about me as a potential employee. I think the tree question is also terrible but I think more of us have a common frame of reference for trees than for music.

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        1. londonedit*

          Well, traditionally (obviously not true in all cases, but still) the lead singer is the ‘talent’ – they’re the show-off at the front, they’re going to be the most famous, they’re the one everyone’s meant to fancy. They often also write the songs. So to me a ‘lead singer’ would be the person driving the whole thing, but they’d also potentially be quite arrogant.

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  23. tabloidtainted*

    1: When you reclaim sexist slurs/derogatory language, the rule of thumb should be to use them for yourself, and not to assume that every woman will be comfortable being called b**** or c***, even if it’s intended to be “complimentary.” And certainly never use them in a professional setting!

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    2. HonorBox*

      I think you still need to be careful in using some of that language, though, because even if you’re calling yourself something, there are those who hear it who might still be uncomfortable.

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    3. Emily Byrd Starr*

      And never, never use those words unless you are part of the group they were used to insult. For instance, don’t use the C word if you’re male, don’t use the N word if you’re not Black, and so on.

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      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        One complicating factor there I think is that “serving cunt” came out of drag culture, and many (although obviously not all) drag performers identify as cis men. Sort of like the history of “fishy.” It gets very intersectionality complicated.

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  24. Lady Knittington*

    LW2, why restrict it to just guitars, drums, bass and vocals? What about the keyboard or synth player? Or the trumpet player? Heck, my two favourite bands as a teenager both had violinists!

    Personally I’d want to be the recorder player. Goodness only knows what that says about me though.

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    1. WS*

      The Corrs had a penny whistle player (because as a child she kept losing her instruments so in the end her parents made her choose something cheap!) so you could fit right in there, if your surname is Corr, at least!

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    2. Metal Gru*

      Yes and saying “actually I’d play the trumpet (or whatever) because….” in response to would you provide voice/guitar/bass/drums is a characteristic answer in itself. I wouldn’t hesitate to challenge the “official” list of options and say a different option that wasn’t on the list fitted me better and exactly why that was. I suppose that is a sort of test of ‘willingness to consider alternatives” or something.

      The reasoning given is also significant, maybe more so than the choice of instrument itself. So if someone says “I’d be a drummer”. The reasoning given for that could be any of these, or others:

      The drummer is the steady one that keeps the other band members in line

      The drummer provides the backbone and foundation of the music

      Bands always struggle to find a good drummer so I’d have a lot of opportunities

      It is quite physical but can also be cerebral

      … etc.

      Reply ↓
        1. Lab Boss*

          If I was forced to use this question in an interview, I guess I would assume you’re straightforward and practical. The kind of person who probably needs relatively clear instructions about what’s expected of you, but can also follow those instructions without me worrying whether you’re going to wander off script. Possibly needing a bit of extra hand-holding early on as you may struggle to extrapolate how to deal with new situations based on previous ones, but as you built expertise I’d look for you to grow into the kind of person I could point at a large project and say “Do this by the book” and then let you cook without having to worry.

          I mean that’s if I had to read the tea leaves on this kind of question, anyway.

          Reply ↓
      2. Percysowner*

        I’ve seen the live version of Fleetwood Mac’s Silver Springs. Stevie Nicks is looking directly at Lindsey Buckingham telling him what a jerk he was, as he has to play and listen to it*. Everyone looks a little uncomfortable except Mick Fleetwood who is on the drums, lost in his job and looking like he’s having a blast. I’d want to be THAT kind drummer. The guy who gets into his job and avoids the drama.

        *To be fair, early in the band’s career LB wrote Go Your Own Way blaming Nicks for the breakup and she had to sing along to a song that said “shacking up’s all you want to do”. Payback can be a b**ch.

        Reply ↓
        1. MsM*

          See, that’s also my problem with the Crosby Stills & Nash inspiration. I’m too hung up on “those guys all seem like they’re miserable and constantly arguing.”

          Reply ↓
      3. Chirpy*

        See, sometimes instruments have awkward cultural associations, though. Ask any high school flute player just after American Pie came out…

        Reply ↓
    3. KateM*

      Ages ago when I was young the lead of my then-favourite band announced at one of their concerts that “our advertised position for a saxophone player was won by the violin player X” who then proceeded to play all saxophone solos for their songs on that concert on his violin.

      Reply ↓
    4. juliebulie*

      Rock-and-Roll Flute for the win!
      Lizzo or Moody Blues or… I don’t know, I feel like there was a fair amount of flute in the 70s.

      Reply ↓
  25. Varthema*

    Not to add to the “boring” (accurate) answer to the interview question question, but this is exactly the kind of interview question that leads to unconscious bias affecting your interview and leading to you hiring people who think like you.

    If you have a pet question like this, it’s likely that some people who are also interested in music will respond really well – maybe someone references one of your favorite bands and you bond over that a bit. On the other hand, another person who isn’t into music in that way just goes, “Ummm… I’m not sure, I don’t really listen to rock music”. As a human, it’s highly likely that you’ll leave with a more favorable feeling about the first and a neutral to negative feeling about the second, which will permeate your judgement – but as Alison said, their respective abilities to answer this question well has NOTHING to do with their suitability for the job, just their familiarity with rock band dynamics (irrelevant) and their ability to handle metaphor on the fly (something that ends up ruling out certain flavors of neurodivergence). And if you’re not conscious of this bias, you end up hiring people just like you, which isn’t good for business because you lose the breadth of perspective that you might gain otherwise.

    So while this kind of “fun” question seems harmless, it actually can really harm your hiring process.

    And THAT, friends, is what DEI training is (should be) really about.

    Reply ↓
    1. Other Alice*

      That was my first thought as well. If the person asking the question was the hiring manager, I would seriously consider withdrawing from the hiring process because it does not bode well for their ability to evaluate candidates, or the employees that they manage, in an objective way.

      In addition, I’m surprised at the number of people in the comments making assumptions about what “everyone knows” about music. I know nothing about music and even less about classical rock. I have no idea what the difference is between a guitar and a bass, aside from the fact that they’re both string instruments. I wouldn’t be able to answer the question in any meaningful way, and I wouldn’t be able to demonstrate reasoning either, unless you want my reasoning to be “I can’t carry a tune and I can’t play any instruments, so I shouldn’t be in a band”. This question is worse than the one about animals, because at least that question is random, while here you would select people with a background and interests similar to yours. Ick.

      Reply ↓
  26. Irish Teacher.*

    LW2, I really don’t think these type of questions test for what they are intended to because they work on the assumption that everybody has the same associations with each position and that those associations are the only reason somebody chooses a particular option.

    In reality, it is very likely somebody might say drummer because they used to play the drums as a kid or because they always wanted to learn the drums or because they aren’t very musical and drums look easier that something like a guitar or because they like the way drums sound or something. There’s not always a deep reason for these choices.

    Now, I guess you could add “and why?” to the end of the question to get more insight, but at that point, it’s probably easier to just ask what role in a team they prefer, because the relevant part is going to be the reason and you could get that without bringing the band thing into it.

    Reply ↓
    1. UKDancer*

      Yes, I’ve bern thinking this. I can’t sing well (I mean I like my voice but I’m only good fir singing in the shower. I tried to learn guitar as a child but that was hard. So I’d probably say drummer because it looks easier.

      None of which is very helpful when considering me for jobs really. As it’s more to do with my lack of musical talent.

      Reply ↓
    2. TeaMonk*

      Not to mention a lot of people don’t listen to classic rock. People from other countries or cultures within the US, many younger people, people who just don’t like it. I listen to some but I have no idea what the positions mean.

      Reply ↓
      1. londonedit*

        Whereas I’m a little surprised that you’re imagining ‘classic rock’ as the only genre with what I’d see as a traditional band setup – lead singer, bassist, guitarist or two, drummer. Pretty much every band I loved in the 90s (mainly the indie/Britpop genre) was exactly that, and definitely not ‘classic rock’ (even if The Kids think Blur and Pulp are ‘vintage’ bands these days!)

        Reply ↓
      2. Hyaline*

        Yeah, the very notion of “what is meant by ‘a band’ anyway” is absolutely at play! Rock band? Mariachi band? Marching band? Symphony orchestra?

        Reply ↓
  27. WoodswomanWrites*

    For #2, I would use Crosby Stills Nash and Young as the example of the band.

    First, I’d say that as a child I named my three little pet turtles Crosby Stills and Nash. Back then we didn’t know that having baby turtles was not a good thing for them, but I did get advice from my city’s zookeepers on how to care for them properly. (Alas, Stills got grabbed by a bird when sunning outside and Nash died from something else.) Crosby lived long enough to start growing but by then we realized the turtle needed a real home and the zoo graciously let me release her/him into their artificial pond (native red eared slider). Young didn’t make it into the turtle names because I only had three and everyone knows that Young didn’t join the band until later anyway.

    What was the question again?

    Reply ↓
  28. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

    #2 – I’m a bass player, so I’d say “the one that does stuff most people don’t really notice, but without me it all falls apart :-)”

    Reply ↓
    2. Count Basie*

      Right on! Or, “I can improvise something that supports the entire operation with a minimum of information and resources, and understand I will never get any credit or recognition for the skill that this takes. “

      Reply ↓
  29. talented but not good*

    I’m a flutist who has played in town bands, my instinctive answer to number 2 would have been second or third flutist depending on the quality of your other flute players.

    Reply ↓
  30. Nodramalama*

    LW1 I am Australian and I know and use the phrase. WITH MY FRIENDS. even as an Australian when I read that I thought, oh nauh cleo. Bad idea.

    Reply ↓
  31. Percysowner*

    #1 Yeah, current slang is great among friends who understand it. On the job is not the place, especially in a professional position. Often swearing in any form is seen as not acceptable and using a (still considered) huge slur is really NOT DONE.

    #2 What a bad question. My ex was tone deaf, so he could never say lead singer. I had a good voice but honestly couldn’t tell you the difference between lead guitar and bass. I would be force to pick drums, although I have little interest in them.

    Reply ↓
  32. Ferret*

    I’m familiar with the phrase and it’s use as a compliment but it still isn’t appropriate as something to say about a colleague or your boss.

    For people who want more context it comes from queer slang and is most well known coming from examples such as the ballroom seen and drag race etc. There was a short-lived tv vogueing competition called Legendary which had a whole explanation for it so that the audience would know they hadn’t suddenly started shouting slurs at the competitors

    Reply ↓
    1. UKDancer*

      Yeah I think if understanding that a word isn’t an insult depends on having watched particular programmes or knowing a particular subculture, I’d not use it in a workplace.

      Most workplaces I’ve been in have a wide range of people with very diverse knowledge bases and interests. So it’s best to avoid assuming people will recognise cultural references unless they’re very wide and mainstream.

      Reply ↓
      1. Angstrom*

        Yup. I work with non-native English speakers and have learned to be careful about slang, expressions and cultural references. Clear and simple is mandatory, colorful is optional.

        I feel the same way about emojis more complex than smily and frowny faces. What the heck does broccoli mean, and are they using it seriously or sarcastically? i don’t want to have to puzzle that out at work.

        Reply ↓
        1. londonedit*

          I remember a whole conversation here a while back to do with a letter from someone whose colleague was using a ‘steam coming out of nostrils’ emoji, and there was a HUGE difference in opinion about how people would take that. Apparently the youth use it to mean ‘really working hard and getting stuff done’, but people my age (mid-40s) would almost universally interpret it as ‘so angry I’ve got steam coming out of my nostrils’ or ‘incredibly frustrated’ or similar. And that was the problem the OP of that letter was having – they couldn’t work out what their colleague meant by it, and it was coming across to them as ‘OMG I’m so frustrated about this’. So yeah, it’s really important to make sure everyone’s on the same page before you start using emojis or words or phrases that you might think ‘everyone knows’ – maybe your circle of friends all know, but that doesn’t mean ‘everyone’ will!

          Reply ↓
      2. Observer*

        Yeah I think if understanding that a word isn’t an insult depends on having watched particular programmes or knowing a particular subculture, I’d not use it in a workplace.

        Such a simple formulation! LOL

        But also very, very useful.

        Reply ↓
  33. Turingtested*

    I occasionally swear at work, but I’m very careful never to swear at or about someone. I had no idea of the positive meaning of that phrase but if someone called me the c word I wouldn’t like it, no matter how it was intended. If I made that clear and it happened again, I’d be very offended.

    I know of a 10 year employee who got fired for using that word. It wasn’t so much that he said it, but that he didn’t care he offended a coworker and defended his use of the word.

    I’d guess that’s what going on with your mentee.

    Reply ↓
  34. NN*

    I’m not from the USA and.. did I read right that when you need to file for employment, you need to justify it to get the benefits??

    Reply ↓
    2. Rogue Slime Mold*

      Yes, you must file for it–it’s not automatic. And it’s only granted in certain circumstances. (Roughly “You didn’t choose to be unemployed; you were unlucky and got laid off, but didn’t quit or get fired for cause.”)

      Reply ↓
      1. doreen*

        A lot of times you are eligible even if you are fired for cause – it’s only misconduct that makes you ineligible , not performance issues.

        Reply ↓
    3. Constance Lloyd*

      Yes, being terminated for misconduct is one reason unemployment benefits may be denied. LW’s company may (and likely would) argue taking the rental car home was misconduct, which is why LW would want to make it clear their manager granted permission first.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mavis*

        But some (many?) companies will dispute all claims on principle and the onus is on the claimant to prove otherwise. Claimants may not understand they have the right to argue their case so they simply accept the decision and receive no benefits. Or if they do know, they may not have the time or resources to fight for what’s rightfully theirs. (Years ago, I had to fight for $2000, paid retroactively a few months after I was fired. I had all sorts of support/knowledge and it was still really hard. I remain furious on behalf of everyone ever unfairly denied unemployment benefits. That $2k likely didn’t even cover the hourly rate the three higher ups they sent to my hearing to try to defend their stance.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Constance Lloyd*

          Yes, many companies dispute unemployment claims as standard practice. All the more reason for LW to include upfront that she was fired for something she had been given permission to do.

          Reply ↓
          1. doreen*

            The LW should absolutely include the information – but I disagree with Alison. I don’t agree that explaining it will make the chances of getting unemployment good if the company contests it ( if they don’t contest it, it doesn’t matter). Because I find it very difficult to believe that a company that fired the LW for taking the car home was just fine with the manager giving permission so my guess is the manager denied giving permission.

            Reply ↓
    4. Chirpy*

      Yes, I didn’t get unemployment because I couldn’t meet the requirement to apply for two jobs per week. I was way too depressed after losing my job, had no support, I knew I had had the only job of its kind in my city so I didn’t know where else to apply, and gave up. Spent all of my savings instead and have never recovered.

      Reply ↓
  35. Despachito*

    I wonder how I would be judged for OP 2’s question because I know neither of those bands and am not interested in this kind of music. And wouldn’t the part in a band someone would want to play be possibly influenced by the fact that they know how to play drums/guitar/ sing rather than by anything significant to their role at work?

    I agree with Allison that this would not be a good question for a work interview (and for me not even a fun one).

    Reply ↓
  36. Galaxiid*

    LW3: As someone whose partner teaches in a school with truly toxic admin, I kind of agree with the friend. The admin at my partner’s school are notorious for criticizing teachers in all sorts of ways that may or may not be useful or actionable. (They evaluate teachers way more often than normal, give teaching advice that is out-of-touch, once said that a teacher was being “too enthusiastic” when they couldn’t find anything else to address, etc.) Definitely take a look at your behavior and see if there are ways in which you can improve, and ask for clarification if needed, but you may also need to let some of their “advice” roll off your back. Unfortunately there’s no way in advance to know what you can/should ignore, but if there’s something that really continues to be a problem, hopefully they’ll let you know. My partner felt like admin hated him at first, and he did have to learn to play their game and, unfortunately, kind of become a yes man. In his school, admin forgets about most of their negative comments by the next eval, even if he hasn’t addressed them. Not saying my advice is ideal, applicable to a normal workplace, or will work at a different school, but idk, you do what you can to survive (and yes, my partner is looking for a new job).

    Reply ↓
  38. A Book about Metals*

    I’ve never heard the expression in #1, but is it similar to calling a guy, a Big Swinging D___ ? It could be seen as a compliment but is vulgar.

    I feel bad for the mentee but at least she’ll have a unique answer to “why did you leave your last job?” when interviewing

    Reply ↓
    1. nodramalama*

      that’s not really a correct analogy. It’s like Alison said- it means amazing, badass, feminine. It doesn’t really have anything to do with the anatomy except that it refers to a femininity. It comes from LGBT+ and particuarly ballroom culture, where traditionally people are emoting and portraying a particular kind of aspiration and vibe.

      Reply ↓
      1. Angstrom*

        My understanding of a Big Swinging D___ is that it refers to a type of swaggering masculinity, and can be used as term of admiration or respect.

        Once again, highlighting how expressions land differently with different listeners…..

        Reply ↓
      1. juliebulie*

        I disagree. The See You Next Tuesday word is much worse than “Dick.” You are describing a woman not even as a part of her body, but as a hole.

        Reply ↓
        1. Andromeda Carr*

          I think the two-word term “serving ****” is being compared to “big swinging ****”, not just the latter word on its own. I also don’t think you need to universally prove that everyone all the way back to queer ballroom sceners is wrong to use the term to state that it absolutely was not an appropriate term for the workplace.

          Reply ↓
          1. Lab Boss*

            This is what I meant when I said the right ballpark- it’s a phrase being used as a compliment, but the phrase itself could be taken as an insult by someone who didn’t know the emerging complimentary slang meaning, and it includes a single word that is widely considered not work appropriate regardless of the context it’s used in.

            Reply ↓
            1. A Book about Metals*

              Thanks – that’s what I was getting at. What’s funny is the phrase BSD, at least as far as I know, came from a Michael Lewis book about ’80s Wall Street and it was definitely used at work!

              Reply ↓
  39. Account*

    I’m confused about letter 1. Wendy was saying it a lot?— “to other people, clients, and online.” It seems like if she said it in person to someone, she would immediately either hear “What??!” Or “Omg yes Caitlin’s great but you can’t use that phrase.” My point being, it seems like something she would only say ONCE. So, was she saying it a lot? Were people responding negatively and she just carried on? I need details.

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      I’m guessing people were shocked and didn’t know what to say but I also think constantly admiring some and announcing that admiration everywhere all the time is also weird and a little unprofessional (too gushing).

      Reply ↓
    2. Nodramalama*

      Maybe they all work at a costume jewellery show and Caitlin is actually out of step with the culture!

      Reply ↓
  40. Yorkshire Tea Lady*

    I’m in the UK, and the c-word is generally beyond the pale, and still isn’t used on TV, even after the 9pm watershed. One of the reasons Trainspotting (the novel mainly, they toned it down for the film) was so shocking was its casual and frequent use of the word.

    I think that it’s great that some words have been reclaimed from their derogatory origins by the groups they were used against, but this – for my cultural background – is probably one too far. And I can – and sometime do – swear like a trooper!

    Reply ↓
    1. London Calling*

      I used to tell the ex off for using the f-word (usually when he was driving). Starting from lockdown I don’t think there’s a day when I haven’t used it myself in various forms. Even if I do use the c-word, it’s very much under my breath, and I don’t admire myself for resorting to it. I agree with what people said upthread, it’s not casually and widely used in the UK.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nebula*

        Yes, it seems to me that sometimes Americans think that because it doesn’t quite have the same connotations as it does in the US, and it is used more often, that it’s seen as non-offensive or minimally offensive here (or in Australia, which also comes up a lot in discussions of that word). It’s definitely not as bad – I use it in conversation with friends – but it’s not nothing either.

        Reply ↓
  41. A*

    2: I think this is a really easy interview question to answer as long as you know it’s not about music at all.

    The LW’s aside that “not enough” people know about Crosby, Stills, and Nash says a lot about the LW. The LW doesn’t want to discuss music generally, how bands are formed, the specific skills different band members bring to ensemble, etc. If somebody responded enthusiastically using the working relationship between Kendrick Lamar and DJ Mustard as an example I would bet any amount of money the LW wouldn’t be into it. Because the LW doesn’t want to discuss music generally, they want to discuss this very specific era of music.

    With this question, the LW wants a reflecting pool. To be fair to the LW, a lot of interviews like this if they are aware of it or not. It’s also why alumni connections help in interviewing. If somebody asked me this question in an interview just like the LW asked it here, I would consider it to be an easy question to ask. I know absolutely nothing about music but it would be really easy to play into the LW’s hands that this era of music is objectively the best. It would be very easy to bring up tropes about the music industry.

    The interview question isn’t bad because it requires people to know things about music. It’s bad because it would be so easy to play into the LW’s hand.

    Reply ↓
    1. metadata minion*

      “I know absolutely nothing about music but it would be really easy to play into the LW’s hands that this era of music is objectively the best. It would be very easy to bring up tropes about the music industry.”

      You know enough about music to discuss tropes about the music industry and to know what era of music the LW’s band belongs to! Which as you note isn’t particularly unusual, but there really are plenty of people who don’t even know that much, or who know tons of stuff about completely different genres of music.

      Reply ↓
    2. Andromeda Carr*

      This is not universal knowledge, though. The more I think about this question the more it seems to me that it would be very useful for weeding out candidates without specific similarities to the interviewer’s background and/or tastes.

      Reply ↓
    3. A Book about Metals*

      I would love to see a collaboration between CSNY and DJ Mustard, with Kendrick Lamar taking David Crosby’s place like John Mayer/Jerry Garcia

      Reply ↓
  42. Ethan*

    The generation gap on the c word is intense. I’m a millennial so I remember it basically being second only to the n word on “things you absolutely do not say” (especially if you’re a man). I recognize that it’s been normalized by Generation Z but I’d need to force myself to even say it in front of people, let alone at work.

    Reply ↓
    1. Iris Eyes*

      It was so unspoken in my millennial experience that it has zero impact on me, someone once tried to use it as an insult and it just didn’t land at all which was kinda funny because they really though they were bringing out the ultimate insult but I just didn’t care. I suspect that’s why its been “reclaimed” by GenZ. It was so forbidden most people stopped having any sort of emotional response to it and so it felt safe to use. Does make me wonder what it replacing it, what is the final boss misogynistic insult these days?

      Reply ↓
    2. Hroethvitnir*

      Heh, I had a friend from NYC who swore plenty, but the way he would *wince* if we (NZers) used the word!

      I get somewhat irritated at the lack of nuance in these discussions about what weight the word carries – I’m old enough to know it was absolutely a strong, misogynistic insult used for women as recently as the 80s here, and a lot of women that were adults at that age hate it.

      I knew people who were reclaiming it – as a neutral, if not positive, word for the anatomy in the early 2000s. Even as a s-x toy rep it wasn’t OK to use with clients.

      It’s pretty defanged to me – I’m actually way more uncomfortable with b–ch these days. It feels more consistently misogynistic in my cultural context.

      Ultimately, while it *is* funny how Americans can be so sensitised to the word/swearing in general sometimes, there is no misogynistic curse that’s not still weaponised against women. So even if it can be a compliment, it’s complicated!

      Reply ↓
  43. A*

    1: Wendy learned a lesson about slang and reclaiming slurs the hard way.

    There isn’t much you can do about people who learn lessons the hard way.

    Reply ↓
    1. learnedthehardway*

      I WANT to think it is very unfortunate that the business did not treat this as a teachable moment, and address the issue with Wendy, give her guidelines on professionalism, as well as judgment, etc. Base the firing/retention decision on how well she responds to the redirection.

      But then, I think this is more about judgment than the word itself.

      I feel badly for Wendy, but at the same time, exasperated. I think the OP can assuage their feelings of guilt for not speaking up by offering to be a reference – Wendy could probably use that right now, and her work and work ethic were good.

      I always ask about weaknesses in my reference interviews, and that’s a good example – Wendy needs to learn that a casual way of speaking with friends doesn’t translate well to a professional setting. The OP can explain that Wendy was let go when she accidentally offended someone, but that they have coached her on that. I’d say that you thought the firing was an over-reaction, as well.

      Reply ↓
  44. CityMouse*

    The band question sounds like something that would be fine for game night or out with your friends but inappropriate for a job interview. Don’t play weird games with applicants.

    Reply ↓
    1. Rogue Slime Mold*

      I think you’ve hit on an important aspect of these sorts of questions, as to whether they are being tossed around within an opt-in group of equals as a way to get conversation rolling (where detouring off into the history of the theramin would be a plus, conversation segueing into diverse topics), versus posed by a gatekeeper with more power. The latter is a very popular scene in film, and never in a positive way re how reasonable and open to an unexpected answer the gatekeeper is.

      As with #1, something that is fine and fun in one context doesn’t map onto all other contexts.

      Reply ↓
  45. HonorBox*

    OP2 – Not for nothing but throw me a bass or a pair of drum sticks if I’m going to join a band. There’s a lot of baseline support (did not intend the pun) the rhythm section provides for the rest of the band, and every now and then they get a really cool 15-minute solo while the rest of the band steps off stage.

    Reply ↓
  46. Lacey*

    LW1: In my 20s a friend made a mistake that was totally understandable for someone to make early in their career. But also, still a pretty big mistake.

    My employer wouldn’t have fired me for it. Hers did.

    But she’s a brilliant person, she learned from it, moved on, and did lots of cool stuff with her career after that.

    I think Wendy will be alright.

    Reply ↓
  47. Mismatched socks*

    For #3, the friend’s advice seems pretty accurate. Good managers may not want people to agree and move on, but at least in my own experience, not a lot of managers are good.

    I’ve only had a couple bosses who would want questions and discussion. The rest (including some in the education field!) wanted me to smile, say yes, and then drop off their radar. Any request for clarification would be seen as hostile or disrespectful.

    Reply ↓
  48. One Duck In A Row*

    If asked which position in a band I’d choose, I’m saying clarinet or bassoon. So… just be warned that there may be former symphonic band or marching band geeks who give you left field answers that probably aren’t what you are looking for. Literally wouldn’t occur to me to think of a rock band position, and honestly, none of them.

    Reply ↓
  49. A Book about Metals*

    LW1’s next mentee has an easy bar to clear, and now you have a good “here’s what not to do” story to tell :) Also for Wendy, people get fired for much worse and bounce back, especially someone so young in their career.

    I don’t think there was anything you could or should have done, but one thing if you want to help her now is maybe help polish her resume or linkedin, give her some networking pointers, jobs that might be a fit, etc

    Reply ↓
    1. HonorBox*

      And mentee or not, LW has the opportunity to give some friendly advice to anyone they encounter who might use a word or phrase, make a joke, use sarcasm, etc. in places where it might not land well.

      Reply ↓
  50. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

    #1: Wendy exhibited some pretty poor judgement, regardless of her intentions. And I’m not sure which part is worse:
    1) using vulgar slang in a professional setting
    2) using slang without considering whether it’s niche and obscure, and therefore likely to be misunderstood.
    3) using vulgar slang about somebody else without knowing whether they would understand it, let alone be flattered by it.

    Reply ↓
    1. I Feel Stupid*

      I grew up knowing there were “bad” words. So I know the c-word is a bad word, but…how did it get to be a bad word? Was it always a bad word? This is not a thing I want to google.

      Reply ↓
      1. juliebulie*

        My understanding, which might be muddied or clouded by time, is that a lot of vulgar words in English were originally the “proper” (or at least not disrespectful) words until the Normans came along and turned things upside-down.

        Reply ↓
  51. Landry*

    I wonder when LW #1 first knew Wendy was using that term. It sounds like Wendy said it more than once (!!!!) and perhaps in different situations. Did LW #1 only hear about it when Wendy got fired? Or had they gotten wind of it before then?

    In any case, this is the first time I’ve ever heard “serving c—.” I’m in my late 30s and relatively online. I also work with many 20-somethings. Is this really a thing? Maybe it’s generational and Wendy was desensitized to it. Just horribly bad judgment though. She couldn’t have been that bright if she thought using “c—” in ANY work context was okay.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I’m a little surprised how unfamiliar so many people are with it, but I guess I have a disproportionate number of friends who are super-into Drag Race. (And no, they wouldn’t use it at work.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Nodramalama*

        Yeah to be honest I forget how much cultural references can be siloed. I said to someone the other day “you ate that!” and they looked at me like I had two heads

        Reply ↓
        1. UKDancer*

          Yeah I would too. No clue where that’s from I’m afraid

          People have massively varying cultural and societal lenses.

          Reply ↓
          1. Nodramalama*

            Just like serving c***t it’s from u.s queer culture, specifically Ballroom. To eat is like to pull something off, like to devour something.

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        2. metadata minion*

          Yeah, I’m kind of sociologically fascinated at the silos in this particular case, because I would have said I was pretty in touch with — indeed a part of — queer culture and I have never heard this phrase. But I’m not into drag, and sufficiently not into ballroom that I hadn’t been aware that it *was* a queer thing.

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      2. UKDancer*

        I think if you’re not into that particular subculture you won’t cone across it. I don’t watch Drag Race and don’t think many of my colleagues do judging from what is discussed at the teapoint.

        I mean I’m massively into tango and there are a whole range of terms and words to describe peopke and their dance styles but I don’t expect my colleagues to know them

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    2. Jules the 3rd*

      I haven’t heard that particular one, but it makes sense to me given recent patterns, like ‘slut walks’ as a way to validate female sexuality. I would not use either term at work, tho

      Reply ↓
      1. Emily Byrd Starr*

        “Slut walks” are actually to protest sexual violence against women, particularly the notion that if women dress “slutty,” they are more likely to get SA’d.

        Reply ↓
    3. mango chiffon*

      The phrase originated in queer Black spaces (ballroom) and now has been used by the wider queer community thanks to drag race. And then eventually it becomes “internet/gen z slang” because that’s what happens to a lot of queer Black slang. It’s definitely not a phrase I would use outside of the queer context, so I might use it online or with my friends, but definitely not in the workplace. Like I’ve said stuff like “she’s the grand enc–tress of X” or “that’s so c–ty of you!” in a very positive way, but I don’t use c— outside of these specific spaces.

      Reply ↓
    4. Czhorat*

      Agreed. Part of professional judgment is knowing what level of speech is appropriate in which situation.

      There are plenty of vulgar or otherwise slang expressions I’d use socially but not at work, nor even on social media when talking about professional things. That’s the other part of professional judgement – knowing when you need to be using your worksona.

      If she’s young I wish Wendy had gotten this as a teachable moment, but I can understand the fear that she might say the wrong thing to a client, the public, or someone else who could hurt the company.

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  52. Jules the 3rd*

    LW3: Leaving the industry because of one mediocre review is such a huge reaction that it makes me wonder if there’s more going on with you than just this. Are you worried about other things in the short term, like whether you still want to be a teacher, or whether you can afford to stay a teacher? Or is this part of a pattern where you take the worst possible interpretation of any reaction or feedback?

    It seems to me that your real question should be why your reaction included ‘leaving the entire career’. Don’t make any major changes until you understand that.

    If the answer to the critique is just ‘participate more’, then you don’t have to go all out ‘bubbly’. Talk a little more during staff meetings, and also talk to your co-workers one-on-one, at lunch or in brief (5 minute) after school check ins. Share lesson plans if appropriate, or lesson plan sources. Ask your co-workers if anything interesting happened that day. Being a good listener isn’t bubbly and is very collegial.

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  53. Czhorat*

    The rock band thing feels more like a (possibly bad) first date question than an interview question (I’ve been married over two decades. It’s been a long time since I had a first date).

    This seems to fit loosely into the old trend of “clever” interview questions, like the legendary Google brainteasers. It’s trying to find a shortcut to the real work of determining who would be the best fit for the role.

    Some days I feel we’re one step away from having the candidate draw a card from a tarot deck as the first step in the interview process. “Oh, you got the fool? That shows initiative and openness to new beginnings, but our risk tolerance isn’t high enough to dance on the precipice”

    Reply ↓
    1. RagingADHD*

      It does indeed feel like a date question, because it’s not far removed from “what’s your sign” – an attempt to reveal someone’s personality traits through an arbitrary system, with the added bonus that the asker has a whole idiosyncratic mental classification system that the answerer isn’t privy to.

      Reply ↓
    2. Roadie*

      I was thinking that #2 was confusing interview questions with ice-breakers. It definitely generated some discussion here, and it gives people the option to share a little work-appropriate personal history (or not).

      Reply ↓
  54. Reed*

    As a professional musician, your question doesn’t even totally make sense. What part someone “wants” isn’t always what they’re best suited for. I would love to always play principal/lead, but the fact is I am a far better low woodwind section player than lead alto or principal clarinetist. I learned that about my skills early in my career, and have since carved out a nice job doing my best work. All that said, and without any resentment or regret, it’s hardly what I would have said I “wished for” at 17 entering school, nor does it sound all kinds of glamorous if I talked about my role to people outside music.

    Reply ↓
    1. ecnaseener*

      Yeah, I think if LW actually tried to use this question they’d quickly realize that they need to actually say “not literally, just which archetype do you identify with?” if they don’t want literal answers about musical skills.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lana Kane*

        I understood the question to be looking for archetypes as well, rather than what you would be able to do. I’m kind of baffled at the level of specificity I’m seeing in the critical comments, but it just goes to show how we all come at conversations from different starting points.

        Reply ↓
        1. ecnaseener*

          Oh to be clear, I did NOT take it that way just from the one-sentence question. It was only LW’s explanation that made it clear to me what they’re trying to ask.

          Reply ↓
        2. Reed*

          This is a pretty good reason why it’s a terrible interview question: the people actually qualified/educated to understand the complexities of it aren’t going to give you the information you want, and everyone else is going to be answering based of incomplete stereotypes.

          Reply ↓
        3. biobotb*

          Saying “but it’s about archetypes!” doesn’t really make it better, since there are no universally agreed-upon “archetypes” that align with different band roles.

          Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There all also the stereotypes/jokes about different musicians (especially in rock bands) that have nothing to do with business demeanor.
      The bassist is quiet, aloof, and cool.
      The drummer is crazy and a little dumb.
      Etc.

      This reminds me of “Are you a John, a Paul, a Ringo, or a George?” Or any other ‘personality’ quiz from Buzzfeed.

      Maybe fun, but not in any way useful in business.

      Reply ↓
      1. bananners*

        Completely unrelated but at my daughter’s small high school, the kids DO choose what voice part they want to sing instead of any sort of range testing and it hurts every part of my soul.

        Reply ↓
        1. Nightengale*

          I got to my small high school knowing I was an alto from my large middle school chorus, and the director told me to “try soprano.” Unsurprisingly, it does not work like that. I think I made it through about half the practice before breaking down in tears and begging to switch to the part where I could actually, you know, sing the notes.

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    4. Slide*

      As another professional musician, I completely agree. Plus, think about how misleading the personality=instrument tropes can be. Trombonists are often chill, laid back, funny, soothing, a bit rowdy. One of the greatest current living trombone players has a very no-nonsense persona that doesn’t fit that at all.

      Tuba rarely gets to lead, right? But I know of a tuba professor who formed an entire brass band from scratch and conducts it with stunning vigor. So if someone said they wanted to play the tuba in an interview and the interviewer interpreted that as “doesn’t lead” they’d be off….

      Reply ↓
  55. pomme de terre*

    I’m in my mid-40s and I work in higher ed, so I have a better-than-average understand of current slang and youthful missteps, and I would NOT appreciate Wendy’s compliment in a professional setting, especially repeated over and over. I would shut it down on first reference. Agree with Alison that it’s more of a coaching moment than a firing offense, but I am not surprised someone thought differently.

    First of all, even if I know what it means, not everyone does and there’s too great a chance of misunderstanding. If a person unfamiliar with the slang hears, “Caitlin is serving C-word” as “Caitlin is a C-word,” well, now Caitlin has an undeserved reputation as a real C-word, which is about as bad as it gets.

    Also, I think it’s completely fine boundary to have people not refer or allude to genitals in any way in the workplace. I work in Student Health and we use anatomical terms all the time when appropriat,e but I would never use them to pay a professional compliment, like “Hey Tom, you really brought some BDE into the budget meeting!”

    From an HR POV, you’d also get into weird territory about who can say what. Assuming from the names that all the players in OP’s story are women; what happens when an even greener male intern takes Wendy’s lead and tells Caitlin (or Wendy or OP) she’s serving C-word?

    Reply ↓
    1. Landry*

      It sounds like Caitlin has much more respect and capital built up than Wendy, so I don’t think hers would be the reputation to suffer if someone misheard or misunderstood the term. Not so much for Wendy, on the other hand. If I heard a young newbie saying anything c-word about a person I had worked with and respected for a long time, I would never automatically switch my thinking to, “Caitlin must be a c— because Wendy says so.” It would be more like, “WTF is up with Wendy?”

      Reply ↓
      1. Cacofonix*

        You would. Not everyone would. Maybe not jumping directly to “C-“ but maybe the beginnings of “Caitlin is not resonating with younger generations and so is not forward thinking.” Even while thinking your WTF is up with Wendy at the same time. Look to heads of certain countries to get countless examples of this.

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  56. Do You Hear The People Sing?*

    LW #2, as an applicant I’d feel toyed with by that question. It doesn’t respect my expertise, and suggests the interviewer is just amusing themselves at my expense.

    I’m sure that’s not your intent at all, but being interviewed is a stressful and vulnerable position.

    Reply ↓
  57. Mamma Mia!*

    LW4: Gosh I’m happy I live in a US state where it’s now illegal to ask for current salary. I know this is still very much an in-progress thing in terms of how people feel about it, as is anything that’s a significant change from the status quo, but I love and appreciate it as a woman who’s been overtly burned by gender wage gap before (was making $30,000 less than my male colleague in a similar role — he was Lllama Groomer III and I was Llama Groomer IV — even though he had a lower title, less experience, lower productivity, less tenure, and less education). As Allison said, name the range you’re expecting/would leave for!

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      There are some good contenders in these two past posts:

      “stupid interview questions (and win a free office chair!)” from July 9, 2009
      “how to deal with weird interview questions” from May 19, 2017

      I am also impressed that there have been two elephant-based interview questions in the past five years (that both make better party conversation topics than interview questions):

      “Interviewer asked what I’d do with a live elephant in the parking lot” from December 24, 2020
      “My boss wants to ask interviewees how to transport an elephant” from November 7, 2024

      I also submit these two questions into the Don’t Use In Any Situation (interview or party) category:

      “my interviewer asked about my personal finances” from May 27, 2021
      “the weirdest interview question ever?” from December 22, 2009 (where the interviewer asked “Can I look in your purse?”)

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  59. Parenthesis Guy*

    #4: They probably want your current salary because they’re not sure what’s reasonable to offer. It gives them another data point. Unless you don’t want an increase in salary, you may not want to provide it. Maybe they say that they’ll pay you your current salary plus an extra 20%.

    You don’t want to find out at the end of the process that you’re off on salary/equity requirements. In addition, it also sounds like you’re applying to a startup or to a really high level position because you’re talking about equity demands. If so, this is more difficult than your standard salary negotiation.

    I’d set up a call with the recruiter and start by discussing equity compensation. I’d think about all the things I want in my offer and try to come up with a few different pay packages that I’d be happy with. I’d focus one package on the salary that I’d like with low equity, one package that’s a mix of the two and one package that’s maybe low salary but high equity. If there’s one package I prefer greatly over the other two, maybe I just mention that one.

    Reply ↓
    1. Snarky McSnarkerson*

      It’s a recruiter. They ought to already have their own data points. They certainly have more access to salary bands than the average worker

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  60. That Library Lady*

    Ooh, yeah, it definitely sounds like Wendy is young and not yet fully aware of workplace norms. You should never use a vulgar term to describe someone even as a compliment. I’d never say someone is “The Sh-t” even though it’s positive.

    Maybe roll back the general Gen Z/Gen Alpha slang a bit too since us poor older farts likely won’t know what you’re talking about! If you need a phrase, “The GOAT” seems to work across all generations.

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    3. Not Gen Z*

      It’s not Gen Z/Gen Alpha slang – it’s been around since before Gen Alphas were even born! it’s queer – and specifically BLACK queer – slang. I don’t think it’s just about age. Gen Z has coopted a lot of AAVE but referring to it like it was just invented and hadn’t been part of a subculture for many years is just not correct.

      I agree it probably still shouldn’t be said at work though!

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      2. ThisIshRightHere*

        And this is exactly why people shouldn’t use terms they don’t fully understand just to sound cool. Years ago, a white colleague stopped Black me outside a conference room to inform me that I was “looking very ghetto fabulous today.” I considered reporting her to HR even after she claimed to have meant it as a compliment. I would’ve had the same reaction to “bad b–” or any other compound phrase comprised of a slur. People, regardless of generation, have no right to victimize people in order to test drive the Urban Dictionary for Dummies terminology they learned on the clock app.

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    4. Phony Genius*

      In my generation, the goat was a sports term meaning the guy who lost the game. In other words, the opposite of the hero.

      Reply ↓
    5. Just Another Cog in the Machine*

      According to an interview with Jennifer Lawrence, they were calling Meryl Streep “the goat” on a movie set. It was a while before Meryl said something that made them all realize she didn’t know what that meant and the closest thing she was aware of was “old goat,” which isn’t complimentary.

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  61. Judy*

    #3. “I’m not very talkative or bubbly”. I’m noticing a lot more new, young employees like this. And when you don’t speak (especially unless spoken to!) you’re seen as not collegial and wanting to be part of the group. Sorry.

    Reply ↓
    1. Seashell*

      I’m neither young or nor new, but I’m introverted and somewhat shy. Small talk with people I barely know is not my strength. I’m not mean to anyone, and I’ll chat appropriately when needed, but I’m never going to be the most verbose person in any office. The world is not set up to reward people like me, but that’s life, I guess.

      Trying to be part of the group or most popular seems like behavior I’d expect from the kids being taught rather than the teacher.

      Reply ↓
    2. Hyaline*

      I think a lot of younger people have always struggled to realize that sometimes you have to do uncomfortable things or things that aren’t part of your natural skillset or personality to thrive at work. I think the difference is that for a lot of younger people today, the cushion of an online world and social media let them coast without realizing this longer than previous generations.

      You don’t have to be an extroverted bubbly people-person to make the necessary connections and contribute at work, but that’s a hard lesson for a lot of people to learn.

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      1. Lana Kane*

        I think the difference is that for a lot of younger people today, the cushion of an online world and social media let them coast without realizing this longer than previous generations.

        And nowadays we have the online echo chambers where you can easily find people who will tell you what you want to hear. So you can have enough people telling you that you shouldn’t have to adapt, this is just who you are, etc.

        You don’t have to be an extroverted bubbly people-person to make the necessary connections and contribute at work, but that’s a hard lesson for a lot of people to learn.

        Agreed! I’m not especially extroverted and can sometimes hang back and listen more than talk, but I’ve learned over the years that it’s to my benefit to speak up and contribute to discussions/conversations. Even if it’s just a couple of remarks, it puts my face and voice out there.

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  62. A Book about Metals*

    I agree with the advice on #4, but I’d also suggest in the future getting the salary info FAR earlier in the process. Personally I wouldn’t proceed past a phone screen without at least a range. You don’t want to have wasted a lot of time and energy only to find out that you were off entirely

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  63. Andromeda Carr*

    Wendy needs for someone to take her out for coffee and explain code switching to her, but that doesn’t have to be LW.

    Reply ↓
  64. CubeFarmer*

    Welp, I think Wendy learned an important lesson about using appropriate language in the appropriate setting. Work isn’t the clurb.

    Reply ↓
    1. ThisIshRightHere*

      Right. Even if she didn’t know the term could be perceived as offensive, I wish she at least had known that both internet slang and uninvited commentary on someone’s appearance are not appropriate for the office.

      Reply ↓
  65. Hyaline*

    I feel like the only usefulness in “creative” interview questions is if the interviewer is actually interested in what the interviewee has to say—how they approach the question, how they think, how they articulate what will be certainly a less canned response. If the interviewer is willing to be surprised, maybe there’s some value to asking and listening. It has very little use if the interviewer has already assigned any kind of value to potential answers, like some kind of code an interviewee might crack or a secret rating system.

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  66. Observer*

    #1 – Mentee got fired.

    This has the potential to be a learning opportunity for you and anyone you mentor going forward.

    I see several things here that are useful to keep in mind going forward.

    Do NOT try to “reclaim” insults in a professional context. To take an example of B****. It’s an offensive word for a number of reasons. Some women want to reclaim it, and that’s their right. But not everyone is aware of that, and many who are disagree. Which means that you only get to use the word in that way about yourself and to / around others who understand the context and basically are on board. Social media is not great for that. In a *professional* context? Terrible, terrible idea. Social media linked to your professional life? That’s just toxic. In fact, if you are still in contact with Wendy and want to do her a favor, advise her to take this stuff down. Because that last thing she needs it evidence for all to see with a casual search of her very bad judgement.

    Which goes to a second pair of issues. On the one hand it’s *really* important to keep in mind that intent does not generally over-ride impact. She repeatedly said something that is extremely vulgar, offensive to her object, and would be seen as offensive by a *lot* of people. “I didn’t mean to insult her” is not good enough. *Especially* given the issue that *other people* can see this.

    Which is the other piece of this. When thinking about what you say and do you need to get out of your own head. Understanding how things are going to land with others is a *crucial* skill. The fact that she never seemed to realize that a lot of people are going to read this *very* differently than she meant it does not seem to have occurred to her. And in some ways that is an even worse problem than the fact that she said what she did.

    Think about it. You had never heard the term before and needed to have someone explain to you that it was intended as a compliment rather than a slur. Which is nice. But what about all of the other “ignorant” people who saw that same line and did NOT have their own “Wendy” to explain how much of a compliment this is supposed to be?

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    1. Cacofonix*

      These are all excellent points in professional settings and in life.
      1) Do NOT try to “reclaim” insults in a professional context. – I’d argue any context especially where the words never had a positive connotation with women, like “b***” or “c***”
      2) intent does not generally over-ride impact
      3) Understanding how things are going to land with others is a *crucial* skill.

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  67. Serious Pillowfight*

    Wow, I guess I’m out of the loop because if I heard someone was saying I’m “serving C***,” I would take it as them calling me a major bitch (and not in the Babe In Total Control of Herself way). It’s my understanding that women do NOT want to be called c-words under any circumstances.

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    1. Alan*

      Depends on the women. My daughter and her friends love the term (although it might be going out of fashion — haven’t heard her use it lately). She’s 28. It’s not calling the woman a c— though. And my daughter completely code switches at work.

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    2. MerrilyWeScrollAlong*

      This term comes from gay/drag culture, where queens would say it to someone who looked especially strong/feminine, so that’s part of it. However, it’s definitely used outside of that sphere now to mean the same thing about women who aren’t in drag.

      But also the C word is used differently in other countries/cultures, and it’s mainly America where it’s seen as such a horrible word. In the UK and Australia, for example, it’s used playfully among friends and it’s not taken offensively or very seriously.

      All that being said, I would never use this term at work even if I knew for certain the person I was saying it about understood what I meant by it. It’s not necessary to use words like that at work, mainly because it eliminates the possibility that someone who doesn’t understand might overhear and get the wrong idea.

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      1. UKDancer*

        Are you in the UK because that’s not an accurate comment. As UK posters have said there are a lot of places where it’s still considered very offensive. In most workplaces I’ve bern in in the UK you would get into a lot of trouble.

        What people may say in friend groups notwithstanding, this comment would be seriously problematic in a white collar office.

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        1. MerrilyWeScrollAlong*

          I am not in the UK but have family members who live there and I’ve previously lived in Australia.

          You’ll notice I never said “it’s ok to talk this way in offices in the UK”, I just said the attitude toward the word is different. I actually specifically said I would never use this word in the office because it can too easily be misunderstood even if your intentions are good.

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    4. Nodramalama*

      You really can’t make blanket statements like “women don’t like being called that” when you are discussing slang

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  68. Observer*

    #2- What band position would you choose.

    What Alison said is 100% true. But also, you are depending on a *lot* of assumptions.

    Like, everyone has the same band configuration in their mind as you do, which is actually no a reasonable starting place. But also, that the answers are not only about personality, but also about stuff that’s relevant to work.

    You mention a person choosing the drum position, for example and assume that it means that they are a person who keeps things moving but stays somewhat to the background. Which . . . Maybe the person chooses drums because they love rhythm, which is beyond irrelevant for most jobs. And maybe they see themselves as the drummer who is actually in the front, that people see and talk about. That’s the opposite of your assessment, but how would you even begin to pick out which it is?

    Skip the kind of question that requires a LOT of translation between what you are asking to typical employment. Sure, in some cases people have non-employment experiences that are relevant. But let *them* lead that discussion, because you simply have no way to even know if there could be a connection.

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  69. Purple Stapler*

    @Alison, I wonder if it might be time for another post soliciting reader advise on “what not to do in your early career” with regards to workplace norms and the like

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  70. Cookie Monster*

    #1 – I wish I knew more about Wendy, because this feels like what happens when LGBTQ+ culture infiltrates the mainstream and non-queer people don’t know how to use it properly.

    #2 – “A person who picks drums is someone who can keep a project moving and is reliable…”

    They obviously don’t know any drummers, haha. This is the exact opposite of every stereotype about drummers.

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  71. Morgan*

    I’ve asked for the salary range they would pay for the role, and the HR manager says they don’t know and that the team has not discussed it. They would like me to disclose my salary.

    Is that as implausible as it seems to me? I’d take that as either a straight-up lie, or a clear sign they hadn’t done their most basic groundwork before trying to fill a role.

    “We don’t know how much this work is worth to us, but why don’t you go ahead and offer the lowest price we can pay for you” is pretty blatant.

    Reply ↓
    1. leeapeea*

      The LW found out during the initial interview that the company had re-assessed the experience level for the role, so it’s very possible they haven’t created a new salary band for it, especially if there’s not an existing, equivalent role in the organization.

      Reply ↓
      1. fhqwhgads*

        If they’re at the point of interviewing, they should have some idea of the range, even if it’s just “the new bottom is what the top was before we reclassed it”. Not having 100% sureness of the exact range they’re willing to offer is reasonable. Not being able to give a ballpark at all is sus.

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    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      The question to ask is whether this is a small company like a start-up, a medium-sized company branching out into something new or an established company.

      If it’s an established company, then that’s bizarre. But if it’s a company with say fifty or less people, or a company with two hundred people moving into new work? It would be reasonable for them not to be sure.

      That’s something the LW should know by this point. I’d just say that I don’t know many large companies that offer equity to people unless they’re really senior.

      Reply ↓
  72. Kelly*

    I had a discussion on a subreddit a few years ago with a scenario along the lines of #5. The scenario involved a young transgender person (I’ll use they/them pronouns here) who had their name legally changed young enough (with the help of their parents) that all of their work history, education from high school on, professional references, etc. would be under their legally-changed chosen name. Given that and not wanting to “out” themselves when an employer asks about previous names unless it was truly necessary, I suggested asking someone in an appropriate position (in a written method) before completing the application if a name changed at said age without any relevant records under the original name (without disclosing the birth name itself) needs to be disclosed or not. My justification was that if they said “no” and then change their tune if/when they learn about the old name and/or why it was changed (since most employers, unless it’s for a security clearance or something similar, in practice wouldn’t care about a name changed at the same age not being disclosed if the name change was for a non-transgender-related reason) there would be proof of discrimination. Another poster then claimed that tactic wouldn’t work for the same reasons Alison mentioned to LW5 here. I then suggested the “at-will” argument wouldn’t apply here, because this involves a protected status (this was after SCOTUS applied the federal anti-discrimination law to sexual orientation and gender identity) and the applicant had a justification of not wanting to disclose their transgender status as a reason for not disclosing a former name.

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    1. Kelly*

      I also want to note that if you go and try to find that post on Reddit, it’s long since been deleted (but I remember the gist of the discussion).

      Reply ↓
  74. fhqwhgads*

    I see two problems with #2.
    1) People who don’t know about bands would not choose in a way that necessarily reflects the archetypes OP2 ascribes to the roles (as Alison indicated).
    2) People who do know about bands, are in bands, sing or play instruments are likely to choose not based on some archetype associated with the roles, but based on their actual skills and interests.
    I know how to play the drums. Do I fit the personality type generally associated with drummers? I have no idea. But if asked, I’d answer “drums” because I know how to do that. I’m not sure if I’d have the quick wit to pause in an interview and think “oh don’t answer this literally, answer this in the way where it is a stand-in for business roles”. I know some amount of mental gymnastics for “well how do I make this question that isn’t a work thing fit as a work thing” is to be expected in interviews but the simpler the literal answer, the less likely I am to remember to try to bend it.

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  75. Lisa*

    LW3, “I’ve asked for the salary range they would pay for the role, and the HR manager says they don’t know and that the team has not discussed it” either they’re lying or this is a big red flag for the position. They want to hire someone but they don’t know how it’s going to fit into the budget? What? When a company opens a position they should have an idea what the range is they are hoping to pay.

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  76. Anon 4 this*

    LW 5, I manage fleet and this is bananapants to me. I don’t understand why someone would be directed to A) write someone up AND B) terminate them. B would negate A so why even bother with that step if you felt this strongly about it? I also write policy around this and driving a vehicle home falls well within our norms.

    I’m so sorry.

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    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      You write someone up 5 minutes before you fire them so you can claim you followed progressive discipline and process instead of acting rashly.

      It’s a farce, but c’est la vie.

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      1. fhqwhgads*

        Yeah it’s basically the thing Alison mentioned about having a documented process you have to follow before terminating someone. So they do the whole process in the span of 10 minutes, and they are compliant with their own rules. Insert Futurama “technically correct” gif here.

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  78. Homeburger*

    The band question is fun but, yeah, not for an interview. We have a whiteboard where people pose random lighthearted questions – favorite pizza toppings, must-see movies, etc – and I could see your question in that context. One of those questions (what instrument do you play) actually prompted some of us to start planning a casual weekly jam session over the summer. Didn’t realize before that we had so many musicians in the office!

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  79. Chirpy*

    re: #2 band:

    I sing and play guitar, bass and drums…so I’d answer that question as singer or rhythm guitar, because those are my best *musical skills*. It doesn’t mean I’m not “confident enough” to be a lead guitarist, or “driven enough” to be a drummer, I just happen to know where my music abilities are best used. A lot of the pseudopsychology about what positions in a band are “supposed” to mean is just complete bunk. The leader of the band isn’t necessarily the lead singer or lead guitarist, and the bassist isn’t just a follower in the background.

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  80. Wombats and Tequila*

    I’m inclined to think that LW#3 should be looking at other schools, If their principal thinks that corporate culture is the bestbfit for middle schoolers, then that is the person who is in the wrong profession.

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  81. Lemons*

    #2 There actually is an interesting interview question buried in there! Bands that operate democratically have to learn to cooperate and navigate situations where some members may feel very strongly, such as someone who comes up with a song or riff that another member isn’t feeling. How to proceed, stay cooperative and productive?

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  83. MerrilyWeScrollAlong*

    LW2, the problem with that question is people are just going to pick the part of the band they’re most interested in and not think about what that says about their work style. I’d pick singer because I love to sing, but by your logic I should pick drummer because I’m someone who can keep a project moving forward and is reliable but isn’t necessarily out front leading.

    This is one of those weird trick questions where the interviewer thinks it’s obvious what each position says about someone but the person answering is just picking what they’re most interested in without work related subtext.

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    1. Kevin Sours*

      With any interview question you have to ask yourself “what is this really testing?”. In the case of the band question you are testing the ability of the candidate to correctly guess what stereotypes the interviewer subscribes to about people in bands. That’s probably not super relevant to the job.

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  84. Susannah*

    I do think Wendy’s use of an extremely vulgar and misogynistic word is not grounds for dismissal – a serious talking-to, to be sure. But on what planet did she not get how incredibly offensive she was being? This is not a swear word (I swear like a sailor, endeavoring to keep it to a minimum among folks I know would not like it). But this is a slur so offensive that even I react physically when someone says it out loud. This is not reclaiming a slur as your own – and I wonder what the reaction would have been from mentor had Wendy called a Black person a badass n-word, on the theory that it’s meant to be a compliment.
    Reminds me of the remarks – ranging from the inappropriate to the crude – men make about women’s bodies at work, followed by “what! it’s a compliment!”
    Yes, intent matters. But you don’t get to go around using words that are offensive and defend it by saying YOU meant it as a compliment – regardless of what the recipient of said verbiage thought.

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    1. MerrilyWeScrollAlong*

      Well, you find that word offensive, but a lot of younger people don’t. There’s a bit of a reclamation of that word happening where women are using it among themselves to portray all of the qualities men used to say were negative about women but are actually strengths.

      It’s also important to note that basically every other English-speaking culture doesn’t find the C-word nearly as offensive as Americans do, and as the world becomes more globalized, those cultures influence one another.

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    2. Nodramalama*

      Because, as it has been discussed in this thread, language adapts and evolves. And among certain countries it’s not nearly as vulgar and taboo, and around certain sub cultures in tbe U. S it’s a compliment.

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  85. Kt*

    2 – don’t be the interviewer people hate. These ‘fun’ ‘cutesy’ questions are NEVER fun for the person on the other side.

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  86. Casey Case Case*

    For the second letter: I’ve always been on the cool, quiet, reflective side myself. The bass player wearing sunglasses, who keeps up a steady rhythm with just a hint of grin on my face. Who is is just as important as the guitarist who’s jumping all over the stage.

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  87. Anti-Corporate Recruiter*

    Re: LW 4, if the HR manager is telling the truth that “they don’t know [the salary range] and that the team has not discussed it,” they are not ready to fill the position, and they need to stop wasting applicants’ time.

    Companies that don’t have pay ranges for non-exec positions raise a red flag for me as an executive recruiter, and it should be illegal in every state (vs the current handful) to advertise a position without that information. In my opinion, LW4 needs to cut their losses and walk away.

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  88. Ladycrim*

    I’d answer #2 more literally than it sounds like LW would want. Personality-wise, I’d absolutely pick lead singer. Talent-wise, though, nobody wants to hear me try to sing!

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  89. YoungTen*

    LW1, the best you can do moving forward is to coach mentees coming through the door that its best to keep most slag out of the workplace. At least until they get a better feel for the work environment and culture.

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  90. Penguins*

    The idea is that question could potentially give somebody an idea of just how confident in themselves a person is. A person who picks drums is someone who can keep a project moving and is reliable but is not necessarily out front leading, for example

    Ehh, I don’t know that this would really work. I wouldn’t necessarily think, “drum player=project manager but doesn’t want to be in spotlight,” for example. When I think “drum player,” I might think of the movie Whiplash (maybe not the type of personalities you want in a workplace!), for starters. Or–to move away from drum players– that one should never date a bass player unless they love heartbreak and contracting the clap, for example. So making this an interview question maybe wouldn’t work that well.

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  91. Hedgehug*

    #1
    oh my…wow.
    I have never heard that expression and would be wildly offended if anyone ever said that in my presence. there is no amount of “but it’s a compliment!” that would placate it to my ears, and that your “mentor” showed such egregious judgement would have me questioning everything she taught you.

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  92. Another Kristin*

    This might make me a bad person but I find the situation LW #1 describes hilarious. I have a direct report in her early 20s, if she tells me I’m “serving C-word”, at least I know now not to be offended!

    seriously, what was Wendy thinking!

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    1. Kevin Sours*

      There is an element of “does a fish know it’s wet”. I know when I came out of college I had to retrain my vocabulary to avoid being incomprehensible. Fortunately I got read as “supersmart nerd” rather than “widely inappropriate” but it was still an impediment. But it never occurred to me that the language I had spent the prior for years steeping in wasn’t how everybody talked.

      What what Wendy was probably thinking was that this was a perfectly normal thing to say.

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  93. Spandana*

    I am a trained singer and if an interviewer asked me the band question without any context, my answer would be obvious. It only says about the confidence I have in my singing talent, nothing about my professional abilities. It is a stupid question.

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  94. Daffy*

    Even people who are marinated in trendy online/newish slang know that c*** is still, at baseline, a high-level swear and that “serving c***” is only very newly in the sassy lexicon. I know a lot of terms that bubble up from the drag millieu have been around for longer than whenever the general public starts using them, but I guarantee you Wendy had never heard that compliment two years ago (even though now it’s everywhere).

    To use it at work, at all, and not expect a strong negative response is bonkers, and this is a lesson it seems Wendy very much needed. Nothing OP should have done differently.

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  95. Office Plant Queen*

    I’ve never heard the phrase in the first letter before! I think if I heard the tone/context I’d interpret it as a compliment but still be really uncomfortable hearing it at work. Or really at all. I think with any slang, especially if it’s vulgar, keep in mind that the literal meaning (or close to it) will be highly salient for anyone who isn’t familiar. This particular phrase is either going to read as an insult or as a sexually charged compliment. Neither of those is remotely appropriate for work!

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  96. Coverage Associate*

    Re #2 and different areas of knowledge about music. I don’t work in an industry that has anything to do with music.

    I once went to Venice between jobs. I had been able to be in Venice for one of the big city festivals when lots of music by Venetian composers is played. Including by composers who wrote for boys’ orphanages. IYKYK.

    With all this in mind, I went into my first day of work. My new manager introduces me to a new coworker, and explains that the coworker knows a lot about music. I respond something like, “That’s great. I just had a good time learning about cast——i music in Venice.”

    I later learned that this coworker knew contemporary or popular music, not classical and baroque music.

    And thus even the softball “what kind of music do you like” is a dangerous interview question.

    Reply ↓

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