open thread – March 28, 2025

by Alison Green on March 28, 2025

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Dumpster Fire is where I work*

    I posted in the open thread last month about how my direct manager (Tom) and his boss (Jerry) won’t manage my slacker teammate Andy, who doesn’t follow basic directions, doesn’t do his basic tasks and can’t communicate professionally. While Andy is terrible, the real issue is that Tom and Jerry don’t hold Andy accountable for anything, and give vague praise when he gives careless attempts at his tasks. Another piece of context is that Tom and Jerry recently fired another person in our team (who had a much different role than Andy and me) for “poor performance”, when in reality that role was set up to fail. Tom framed it like “HR said it was performance related, and Jerry and I agreed”. I’m at a slightly higher level than Andy, but have no managerial authority over him – this is important.

    Anyway, nothing has changed since I posted. Andy still doesn’t do his tasks half the time unless Tom or Jerry remind him. In the past week alone, Andy didn’t do a weekly task he owns (that has multiple departments involved) and it came to light he didn’t finish a project that had 3 separate components from back in January. It’s almost comical at this point. In the last post, everyone recommended I say something in written about mine vs. Andy’s assignments to cover my butt (thank you for that!), so I’ve been doing that, but Tom and Jerry STILL won’t say anything to Andy.

    My newest question is that next month and this summer we’re coming into our busiest season. I manage the largest and most complex accounts, and Andy is supposed to handle the lesser accounts. However, Andy was supposed to work on a few small technical pieces that while small, are essential, and impact my larger accounts. He did not do them, and even though Tom and Jerry know that and have seen it from me in writing, I know they are going to play dumb and bring it up in meetings without calling Andy out.

    How can I say, “Andy was supposed to do that piece.” Even if I remind them, they won’t do anything. Another thing about Tom and Jerry is that I don’t think they actually care about results, they just care that everyone gets along and is “team-first”. So I can probably say something that is complete bs, and they’ll forget again eventually, until they randomly think of it again.

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      “You’re asking why XYZ didn’t get done? I’m waiting on ABC from Andy still.”

      If they try to say it was never assigned to him you can add a,
      “I can forward you the email where we discussed Andy was taking on that component.”

      Reply ↓
    2. Anima*

      Here is what I do: I don’t do the task until the other person does their part. I ping my bosses (I don’t have managers, just bosses) every time I attempt to do a task and it’s not possible because the other person didn’t do their job. Which in your case, might be daily. When the project eventually fails, I have a whole slew of e-mails as proof it was not my fault.
      Is there someone above Tom and Jerry? Maybe put them in CC after the third e-mail.

      Reply ↓
      2. Rogue Slime Mold*

        When the project eventually fails…

        And remember that you should not care more about the success of the business than the people above you.

        Reply ↓
        1. AceInPlainSight*

          How do you do that in this day and age? For the people above me (the ones that can make the changes that would fix the root cause), the business failing means they can’t build a new house. For me and my immediate coworkers, it means finding a new job/ struggling for rent in a field that’s Chaos right now. It Matters more for my life than for theirs

          Reply ↓
          1. Budgie buddy*

            I think the expression is less “it’s literally impossible for you to care more” – obviously it’s possible – and more “You will always have less power in this situation to achieve your goals. If the higher ups stonewall, there’s nothing you can do.”

            The only power is accepting that they may trash the company if they want to and channel your energy into something besides reasoning with them.

            Reply ↓
          2. Personal Best in Consecutive Days Lived*

            If the business is at risk of failure because the higher ups don’t care, immediately start a job hunt. Of course you care about your livelihood more than, well, anyone else at all. That’s completely normal. But you still don’t have the power to fix the root problems so there’s still no point caring more than those who do.
            Do whatever you have to to put food on the table (including working your ass off for useless management if that’s what it takes), but try not to care more; you’ll need that mental energy for your job search. :)

            Reply ↓
    3. Rodentia*

      If they address you directly, you can try saying “Good question/point! I’m waiting on Andy to finish X first. Andy, what’s the status on that?”

      If they don’t address you directly and make vague statements instead, what would happen if you just ignored them?

      Reply ↓
      1. Ally McBeal*

        Completely agree with this. Don’t respond to vague noises, respond only to direct questions, and come prepared with the date you last discussed this (via email! direct as much you can to email so there’s a written record!) with Tom/Jerry. “The last time we discussed this was on Monday the 17th when I let you know that I’m still waiting on Andy to send the data. Has there been any movement on his end since then?”

        Reply ↓
    4. learnedthehardway*

      Can you loop in HR at this point? Or at least talk to someone in HR about the issues and ask for some support from whoever the VP is for your functional area?

      Reply ↓
      1. Dumpster Fire is where I work*

        I’m not going to HR. Jerry is actually the VP of our department and his boss (C-level) won’t do anything. He’s just as bad as them.

        Reply ↓
    5. Juneybug*

      I would suggest an attitude change – since Tom and Jerry don’t care about results, you care less. I am not saying you are the problem because you are definitely not the problem. You should not have to manage-up as well manage your co-worker Andy. But you are taking the emotional burden of your co-worker’s slack instead of your supervisors.

      Next meeting –
      Tom/Jerry: hey, we need this report to be complete.
      You: I am missing technical pieces to complete the report.
      Then you shop talking and let your supervisors figure out who is responsible for the technical pieces. Don’t point out that you sent emails to remind your co-worker. Or it’s a known problem. Just shrug/grey rock about the situation.
      If they ask you to do it, tell them no (too busy, not the expert, etc.).

      This problem should remain on their shoulders, not yours. It is going to feel uncomfortable as you have been trying to fix this problem for your supervisors.

      It might help to remind yourself –
      They get paid to fix these problems.
      I cannot do it all.
      I cannot care more about the company than my supervisors.
      If customers get upset, I will direct them to my supervisors.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. Jeneral*

        Agree with this approach. Some of the advice above sounds great for a slightly more functional workplace, but I could see Tom and Jerry actually pushing you out instead of dealing with Andy. You would be the person making them uncomfortable and “not being a team player,” and you’ve already seen one person let go after being set up to fail. Maybe be very nice to Andy while documenting and Grey rocking.

        Reply ↓
        1. not nice, don't care*

          Definitely seen this happen in a few workplaces. Bad bosses like to keep bad employees around for cover/scapegoating.

          Reply ↓
      2. Sam I Am*

        I was told at my last job (before switching to just having clients on my own) that I really needed to care less about what was going on at work.
        I really had a hard time with it.

        Reply ↓
    6. Busy Middle Manager*

      I feel like you’re too committed to an old-school version of professionalism that doesn’t work when the other side of the transaction is not professional. Andy is making a joke out of the job and the team; dancing around it isn’t really taking the high road. Just be more direct. This is management’s problem. If you’re direct and they don’t care, then it shows nothing anyone is doing matters. There is no reason to dance around this for months.

      Reply ↓
    7. Your former password resetter*

      If they’re small tasks is it possible for you to just… take them over and do them yourself?
      It’s definitely enabling Andy and your bosses, but if it has a big impact on your work and is relatively easy to fix, it may still be worth it to save you the headaches.
      You can still use other tasks from andy to pressure your bosses of course. But im concerned doing that with anything that you have the final responsibility over.

      Reply ↓
    8. Chauncy Gardener*

      Can you look for another job? I’m just not seeing Tom and Jerry actually taking any constructive action on this. You know, like managing Andy.
      Ask me how I know….

      Reply ↓
    9. mabby*

      This reminds me a bit of being a stepparent. The rule there is don’t be more invested in the child than the parents are — you can’t fix anything if the parents don’t care. In this case the bosses don’t care so you can’t fix it and should consider disengaging. X doesn’t get done? Shrug, shame, oh well. Client unhappy? Shrug, shame, oh well. Albeit I’d be seriously job hunting as this situation won’t be sustainable for long.

      Reply ↓
    10. Office Gumby*

      If they care so much about “team”, how would they respond to being told, “When Andy doesn’t do XYZ, he’s letting the team down.”?

      Reply ↓
  2. Loopy*

    Im in a new job, hooraaaaay. But its been a while and I’m ending week 2 feelings anxious about not being useful yet. Team members are still doing tasks my role would nornally do since they picked them up during the gap where no one was in this role.

    I know this will vary, but curious for those who have been in a position coverinf tasks, how long would you expect a new person to take to start taking things back over? Ive been in this role and know the job, but its a new and very complicated system.

    Reply ↓
    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I’m two months into my new job and only just starting to feel useful! I hope your managers are as patient and helpful as mine have been in helping you get up to speed.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jamalama*

        Depending on the job it can be a while! Where I work, we say you need a YEAR to fully understand the organization and how we work together. I think two weeks is still early, but if you’re feeling antsy there’s no reason not to bring it up with your manager, or as someone who is doing those tasks to train you or let you shadow them.

        Reply ↓
      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Six months to a year is normal for learning a new job and feeling comfortable. Week 2 is way too early to worry about not making a contribution.

        Reply ↓
      3. Pam Adams*

        Higher ed- academic advising. I’m starting a new advisor on Tuesday. I expect them to be training, shadowing, reverse shadowing for 2 months.

        Reply ↓
    2. Jane Bingley*

      Two weeks is still well within the norm for a new and complicated job! I’m switching to a new role soon and expecting to spend two weeks training up my replacement and then will remain close at hand for assistance for at least another two months. You’re on track and I wouldn’t worry too much at this stage.

      Reply ↓
    4. Yes, this is a Signal Chat*

      I’m in a new role that has similar tasks but in a different way. My boss said she was very surprised at how quickly I started assuming tasks.

      This transition requires three things: Your readiness to assume the tasks, you telling them your ready to do so, and their readiness to pass the tasks over.

      2 weeks might be a bit early for some tasks, but you have to let them know when you’re ready to assume something. Obviously, start with the easier ones so you can take more time for the complicated system tasks.

      Make a plan with your boss or the team letting them know you’re prepared for a methodical approach to move tasks to you and they’re part of the process.

      Reply ↓
    5. Altered Mental Status*

      I would say they can take over ASAP – as soon as they’re settled in, comfortable or even ABLE to, since sometimes organizational issues out of an employee’s control (equipment issues, IT issues, access issues, etc), can prevent someone from actually starting their tasks.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pay no attention...*

        Same that I would expect the new person take over the tasks immediately but with a lot of expected help on questions and training. If the tasks were extremely complicated and unique to my org, I would still expect them to shadow me on all of the tasks for the first 2-3 times and then start doing it with me shadowing them for a few times.

        Reply ↓
        1. The Accidental Tourist*

          I agree, I would wonder about my bosses’ planning skills if they couldn’t identify at least a FEW easier / low level tasks I could take on almost immediately to lighten the load for everybody. How else do you feel like you’re part if the team? Six months before assuming *all* job duties independently in my field. I’m sure it varies widely, but also with people switching jobs more often, we wouldn’t want a whole year of just onboarding.

          Reply ↓
      1. Just a Pile of Oranges*

        For real. I think it was three weeks before I ventured out of my office to explore because I was afraid I wouldn’t be able to find it again.

        Reply ↓
    7. Saturday*

      At two weeks, I would be expecting that you’re still getting yourself oriented. I definitely wouldn’t expect a lot of work output by then. What I’d hope for is that you seem to be picking things up and engaged and interested in what’s going on.

      Reply ↓
    8. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      2-4 weeks is completely normal for a complicated system or really involved work products. Have you talked to them about low-hanging fruit/quick win things?

      Reply ↓
      1. Loopy*

        I’ve been encouraged to ask questions in discussions to ensure people are slowing down and considering multiple perspectives.

        So Ive been getting engaged in discussions, but not as much hands on keyboard work as I’m used to.

        Reply ↓
    9. cosmicgorilla*

      2 weeks is nothing.

      To feel more productive, are any of the tasks ones that you could shadow? You sit with the person (or on a call, if remote) and watch their screen as they do it and talk through it?

      Or, are any of the tasks ones you can do in parallel? This won’t work if you have to make entries in a system or work with something physical like supplies, but if it involves spreadsheets or other documents, co-worker could do the “official” work, but you could also do it and then check your work against theirs. This gives you the opportunity to practice, show what you know, and also show what gaps in understanding this new complicated system you have.

      But again, 2 weeks is nothing. It’s understandable to feel like you should be doing more, but transitions do typically take longer.

      Reply ↓
    10. Beth*

      I’m almost 2 months into a new job and only now starting to be useful. I’m told this is actually very speedy for this role–the product is complex and most people spend the first few months learning it. It’s great to be ramping up into contributing, but I don’t expect to be at full capacity for a while yet.

      Obviously startup time will vary a lot depending on the job, but in a role with a new and complicated system, I think you should cut yourself some slack!

      Reply ↓
    11. RagingADHD*

      Start asking them to show you where they are on X, then ask if they have time to review it if you do it. Once they see you have absorbed the house standards, they’ll probably just hand it over.

      Reply ↓
    12. Richard Hershberger*

      I think the devil is in the details. I am about eight months into my job. I didn’t have the luxury of easing in. I was hired to clean up the mess left by my predecessor. On the plus side, I, was opposed to someone else, got the job because I have the experience to know what needed to be done. This left figuring out how to do it with the new firm’s systems and procedures. This in turn was a matter of being pointed in the direction of the right people to ask about various aspects. I am still occasionally surprised, but mostly have the hang of things now. But for being actually productive? Day one, because “being productive” meant putting out fires. That was the first two to three months here, before I was able to catch my breath.

      But the devil being in the details, how this plays out varies wildly. It depends on the nature of the job and of your experience.

      Reply ↓
    13. Database Queery*

      I work in a highly complex business (global teapot manufacturing and distribution) and I didn’t start being useful for several weeks, didn’t really develop mastery of every job task for over a year, and 5 years later am still building a more complete knowledge of our many, many edge cases. Luckily, in this industry that’s considered pretty typical. Check in with your manager occasionally about whether you’re meeting their specific expectations and try not to be discouraged — the big picture will probably pop into focus sooner than you think.

      Reply ↓
    14. SansaStark*

      Congrats on the new job! At the 2-week mark, I’m expecting new people are still being heavily trained with significant hand-holding. The thing I’m looking for the most is that they’re either picking things up super quickly (fine) or asking good questions that show that they’re slowly piecing things together (also fine). I know you probably feel like a burden, but a well-run org should have a reasonable training schedule that is designed NOT to overwhelm you. You’re still learning the basics! Honestly, part of the first month or two is kind of just seeing how things run, who handles what, etc. The very fact that you’re asking this question shows me that you’re probably doing great.

      Reply ↓
    15. Honoria Lucasta*

      For my first two months on the job at a very basic receptionist position, I felt like I was working non-stop every day and barely keeping my head above water. Just learning new systems, adapting old ones to fit my own workflow, etc., took up so much time. I was doing it all myself, but it was a very basic position and even that took up my whole 8-hr day for the first two months or more.
      If your position is more complex, I can easily say that you and your coworkers should be expecting that it would take at least a couple months for you to be handling everything yourself again (and even at the 2 month mark, you will almost certainly still need help with some of the pieces you’ve only recently picked up).

      Reply ↓
    16. Amaryllis*

      2 weeks is a really short period of time! For our recent hires, it’s taken them about a week to get the computer and email set up, basic system access, etc. For one of the roles, it takes over 50 hrs of web-based learning modules before access can be granted. I guess that could be done in about a week and a half but it would make for a very miserable first impression for the new hire. They need time to get situated, learn about the dept and the org, build bonds with their coworkers.

      New hires here are sometimes just plopped down in their roles and expected to take over everything. It rarely ever turns out well – they’ll either get overwhelmed and leave quickly or they take shortcuts and never learn how to do things properly.

      Even if the person is coming from a similar position, it still takes time to figure out how this particular dept handles things. Think about NBA players – they’re all playing the same game and the rules are identical. But different teams run different systems and unless you’re a superstar that just takes over the game (thereby forcing everyone else to adapt), it might take some time to really mesh with the rest of the team.

      I would say that you do want to look ready, to the extent possible. If I delegate a task to a new employee and we’ve discussed it briefly, I expect they won’t give me a blank look when I follow up a week later and say “that doesn’t ring a bell”. Even though they already did some work on it.

      Reply ↓
  3. Elizabeth M*

    I’m looking for an app that can send me relentless reminders to do weekly tasks that I keep putting off. I want to try to so certain things more regularly so they don’t pile up, but I need something to keep bugging me to do it until I do. I’m looking for a Duolingo level of reminders. If they can be passive aggressive, even better.

    I like CARROT for my personal tasks, but I need something with recurring reminders for work. For example – every Monday I need to do Task A, Tuesday Task B, etc.

    Any suggestions? Something that works with Teams and can send me chat messages there would be preferred, but I can also do an iOS app.

    Reply ↓
    1. Shieldmaiden792*

      If you use Teams, can you use Outlook? The To Do section of Outlook allows you to create repeating tasks on whatever frequency you like.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsSolo (UK)*

        Microsoft Planner can also be set up with recurring tasks and reminders (and has a more detailed layout than To Do, which appeals to me) though I’ve mostly set mine up to turn the notifications off, so I can’t remember to what extent you can make it actively bug you through Teams. You can access it as an app in Teams, though, with nice “My Day”, “My Tasks”, “My Plans” views.

        Reply ↓
        1. Elizabeth M*

          I need something more that that. I should have specified in my post that Outlook and Planner do not have what I’m looking for.

          Reply ↓
          1. JSPA*

            You are going to have to connect more dots, I suspect, to explain why the default reminder systems can’t be used for what you need. If you ignore / silence reminders from apps you are used to (which is what you seem to be saying?) trying to outrun the familiarity of each new app to somehow game your avoidance, depends on people knowing each and every app that you’ve become avoidant towards. Would also help to know what platform(s) / OS are of interest. I see some upvotes for Recurrence, and here’s a thread for recurrent apps (probably biased towards the one named in the URL?) https://www.amplenote.com/blog/five_best_todo_list_apps_for_recurring_tasks

            But even a plain text “to do” list that you duplicate and rename weekly, and alarms on your phone to check that list, may work, if you can get your head around doing that. Precisely because there’s next to no “look and feel” to become avoidant over.

            Reply ↓
      2. Elizabeth M*

        I should have specified, but I really need it to be separate from Outlook notifications. I’ve tried that in the past, they just get snoozed into oblivion.

        Reply ↓
    2. mreasy*

      Can you set up events in Outlook calendar? They don’t have to have a time duration so they don’t block off your availability, you could literally set from 9 am to 9 am and Outlook reminders can be set to be VERY noticeable.

      Reply ↓
    3. Varthema*

      Doesn’t Carrot add functionality as you go? I thought that was one of the features you eventually get, but I could be misremembering. I miss that app! wish it were available for Android.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elizabeth M*

        I looked it up and it’s added at level 28. That’s too bad, CARROT is the type of app I’m looking for but I need that type of functionality from the start.

        Reply ↓
    4. cmdrspacebabe*

      The “Updates” function on Teams can be set to text you from a chat window on a recurring basis, but it’s more for reporting on things to a manager or stuff like that, so it may not be that useful for reminders (though you can do something like send yourself a weekly checklist on a task).

      The other main one would be the Teams Planner function, but how much use you can get out of it depends on whether your org has the premium functions/hookups with your Outlook calendar. I find it frustrating because a lot of the good stuff is behind a paywall.

      Reply ↓
      1. cmdrspacebabe*

        My other thought on this is that… for me, recurring reminders don’t work lol. Motion (a paid app that’s supposed to be great for ADHD, which I have) is pretty intrusive with them and it worked for me for about a month, but then I got used to seeing the pings and they stopped being compelling. It doesn’t matter how many there are or where they come from – once I get too used to them, they stop being compelling. The only thing that really works for me thus far is external accountability (i.e., someone else will notice if I don’t do it, thereby activating the Shame Factor).

        My team has most of our recurring tasks on a rotation now, which has helped a lot – I only need to do the thing for a few weeks every couple of months, so I don’t have time to get used to it.

        Reply ↓
    6. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I use the todo function that comes with Microsoft Outlook. I like it because you can set reminders and due dates and it will send you notification on your screen. There is also the planner function that you can make a project board and it will link to the todo list function if you assign it to yourself and set dates.

      Reply ↓
    7. Tinamedte*

      Do you have Copilot in your Microsoft environment, or some other AI application that’s allowed at your workplace, that you could set up to bug you and not let you off the hook until the task is proven to be done (whichever way you define that to the app)?

      Reply ↓
    8. Always Tired*

      Does your company have the full Microsoft 365 suite? Because if so, let me introduce you to my friend Power Automate. There are a lot of templates you can use or modify, so you don’t really need to code things. Things like “Post a daily message to Teams of Planner tasks due tomorrow” or “schedule a recurring message in a chat.” It can connect any two (or more) 365 apps.

      I have a fancy one where if I move an email to a specific folder in outlook, it uploads the attachment to a sharepoint folder, and sends a message in a teams group chat. I use it for uploading invoices we receive in the post to the remote finance team, and letting them know there are new invoices to review.

      Reply ↓
    9. Tristan*

      I use Todoist, I don’t know if it connects to Teams but it’s been really helpful for my recurring reminders! I think you can set them up to go to your email as well. I type in the task and then weekly/daily/monthly/whatever (like “Fix TPS cover sheets weekly”) and it’ll auto-repeat. You can also set priority levels, different project lists, etc. It’s been a life saver for me.

      Reply ↓
    10. CanadaGoose*

      A physical version: Buy an advent calendar. Write your tasks on sticky notes and place them over each door in the advent calendar. Prop or hang your new task calendar within your view when you’re sitting at your desk. Now you have a constant visual reminder of the task and the reward for doing the task. (Reward: toss the sticky note, open the door for a mini prize)

      Reply ↓
      1. Imprudence*

        I was going to suggest something with a reward for not ignoring reminders, since that tends to be the real problem. I ended up with a spreadsheet that recorded how many things were on that days Todo list ( I used outlook) at the start and end of the day and gave myself a score based on that (and some other things, like how many emails were in my inbox). then I tried to beat yesterday’s score, last week’s average and so on.
        I’m a bit nerdy, but it served to motivate me to finish those aggravating things that were hanging around because I didn’t fancy them.
        another thing that worked for me with large tasks like say cataloguing the tea pot store was to email someone weekly to say 25 teapots catalogued this week, only 4975 to go. just knowing I had to send the email meant I would try and do a few more. One time, I did this to a boss, another time to a peer
        I don’t know if either of these ideas would help.
        However I do think a chocolate based advent calendar for recurring tasks sounds much more fun.

        Reply ↓
    11. amdd*

      Routinery is an app for building habits. You can schedule any task to happen as frequently as you’d like. The app sends notices and alarms to remind you to do it. You can give yourself a timer for how long you want to spend on a task and the app will give you another alarm when you’re supposed to be done.

      Reply ↓
    12. Dancing Otter*

      It may not work for you, or not longterm, but maybe take a look at Habitica – iOS free app. I don’t know if it interfaces with Teams, because *I* do not. Essentially, it gamifies tasks and habits. I have mine set up for morning and evening batch reminders, but that’s my choice among various options.

      It’s got three categories: Dailies – tasks by frequency, such as every day or every Monday or every other day; Habits – things not specifically scheduled, or multiples, like so many minutes of filing, or how many flights of stairs, or things NOT to do (negative points); and ToDos – long-term or one-offs like income tax return due 4/15.

      You get points added or subtracted by doing or not doing tasks, refraining from bad habits or following good ones, knocking off ToDos. Items are worth more points if you add subtasks, or set them to higher difficulty. (I also use difficulty as a proxy for how much I dislike doing something.)

      Reply ↓
    13. Not that other person you didn't like*

      I’d like to suggest a different way to think about this problem that was a huge game changer for me. I don’t know if it will work for you too, but I’m happy to share.

      Consider that there are two categories of things you need to get done. We’ll call them tasks and todos. Tasks have a time/date that they have to get done ON. Todos have a time/date they have to be done BY. They seem similar, but they are very different.

      Imagine that you have a scheduled task like a meeting with your boss or a dentist appointment. Your reminder goes off, you go to the meeting room or hop in the car. You don’t ignore the reminder because the thing it’s reminding you of has to get done at that specific time. If it doesn’t happen at that time, it won’t happen (or your boss will be annoyed or whatever).

      Now imagine your weekly list of todos. There are ones that have to get done by end of day Monday, ones that need to be ready by mid-week, and ones that you need to finish up by the end of your work week (or for personal things, by the time you go to bed or by the end of the weekend and so forth). The reminder goes off, but you happen to be doing something else at that moment and, well, it doesn’t have to be done EXACTLY right then, so you snooze or ignore the reminder. And the more reminders go off, the better you get at ignoring them.

      This is how it worked for me (and honestly how it still works). I will manage to get to meetings and appointments on time but no amount of reminders will help me pull the trash out to the curb the night before pickup or do my TPS report by Friday or whatever. The more reminders I have the more I would train myself to ignore them (to the point that I would start to ignore reminders for tasks too and end up late for meetings or missing appointments).

      I needed a different approach. What I started to do was create todo lists and attach them to things (either literally or metaphorically) that were in my face… and I didn’t allow myself to go past the ‘by’ time until those things were done. This takes some brainstorming, but it’s nice because the brainstorming helps anchor it further. Here are some examples:

      You probably manage to get your teeth brushed in the morning, so your AM before work list should go on a post-in right in the middle of your bathroom mirror. If you have an errand on your morning commute, attach it to your steering wheel.

      The daily work list gets stuck on your monitor and you don’t get to go home until those things are done. Maybe you don’t get lunch until the AM todos are done each work day. The key is that they aren’t popping up at a certain time to be ignored… they are already there where you can’t miss them.

      Attach an evening chore list to the TV, the container of ice cream you enjoy for dessert, etc. If you have a pet, I’m guessing you don’t forget to feed them, so consider a todo list attached to the cat or dog food. You can ignore a reminder all day long, but you cannot ignore a cat who needs dinner.

      For things that repeat, what you are doing is creating habit chains, so the act of doing one thing reminds you to do the next thing. You already do this for tons of stuff, but because habits are subconscious, you don’t typically think about them. The in your face list is busting into the unconscious chain and reminding you ONCE to add todos to it. Eventually you will just remember the string of “dog out, lock doors, make and set coffee, take meds, brush teeth” or “Monday TPS report, check client tickets, do the work thing that you do, then have lunch” and you won’t need the list anymore.

      And for things that don’t repeat, the act of finding and checking the list itself becomes the habit. When I sit down to work, I have several different things that I do every morning, including checking a list of things I need to get done by EOD or EOW. I don’t let myself stop work for the weekend without having created a “what the hell was I even doing last week” list for Monday morning (because if I don’t it will be Thursday before I even get myself sorted out and that’s no way to be successful at work).

      Instead of a million reminders for a all these different things, pinging at you all the time, and honestly begging to be ignored, you present yourself list of things you have to do, in the place that you are already at when you need them to get to the next thing. And you don’t get the next thing (lunch, go home, have dessert, lounge in bed and watch carpet cleaning videos until you doze off) until you get them done.

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  4. Marem*

    TL;DR I’ve only worked in nonprofit spaces and I’m interested in perhaps looking at industry— what jobs might be a good fit for me?

    My background: I recently graduated from a liberal arts college with a humanities degree. All my internships and job experiences were in education and GLAM organizations (galleries, libraries, archives, and museums). After college I landed a program coordinator job at a university and I’ve been working there for about a year.

    My skills: I’m organized, fast on email, good with people, and an excellent writer. With my experience in higher ed, I can navigate bureaucracy like a pro. On the other hand, I struggle with numbers and budgets. I would not be happy in a role that required constantly soliciting people, whether that’s fundraising or sales.

    I have OK job security right now, but I’m wondering what else might be out there for me. Does anyone have ideas or experiences branching out into industry with these skills? Thanks all!

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    2. Goldie*

      Project Management skills can be valuable. Maybe take some project management courses to get a certificate and you might be people in industry in the classes?
      I could also help in your current career.

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    3. Laggy Lu*

      My husband works at a consulting firm, and because they do a lot of government work, they have to keep archives of everything. I was surprised that they have their own library, with librarians and everything. I think it’s so cool. So there are potentially jobs that cross your background with private.
      My sister used to work at a university, and it’s much easier to transfer once in, than getting in, or so I hear. I would also look at job openings in other departments, to see if there are jobs of interest to you (unless you are looking to get out of higher ed). She had one job where she ran the art gallery and shows/auctions for the school and the students. There are lots of interesting things that go on at universities.

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      1. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

        It’s amazing how many corporate libraries there are. I never thought about it until I got my MLIS. I had a colleague who used to work in the corporate library of an electric utility. The library had the usual collection of laws and regulations books but mostly it was a huge library of blueprints, schematics, and architectural plans going back to the 1800s. She said it was really interesting work and she would fulfill requests from contractors, government departments, regulators, etc., and she left that job with an uncanny knowledge of all sorts of interesting hidden places in the city. No soliciting on her part but it did require project management skills.

        A professor of mine used to work as an archivist for an exploration company. Their corporate archive was all core samples of every site they ever investigated. She said she had to navigate a lot of bureaucracy and coordinate with partner organizations. Sometimes the company was the only one who ever explored certain sites so they had the only record of what was underneath.

        There are also a lot of private museums out there; industry museums, corporate museums, association museums, club museums, even some run by individuals.

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          1. Paisley Park is in Your Heart, Not Chanhassen*

            Paisley Park is very poorly run/managed. One of the lawyers who oversees the Estate is a nightmare. Technically, it’s also not a museum, it’s an LLC.

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            1. Elitist Semicolon*

              Oh, bummer – I’m sorry to hear that. (But my point was less “here are places to consider working” and more “here are examples of seemingly unlikely corporate settings that hire librarians/archivists/historians.”)

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        2. NancyDrew*

          Scholastic has an amazing on-site library with a full-time librarian and 1-2 part-time librarians. It’s the coolest. Every single book they’ve ever published, and even more impressive, every single magazine (and they have something like 30 magazine brands)!

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          1. MistressOfNothing*

            A little late here, but tossing the Harpo Archives (Oprah Winfrey) into the mix. I work at a public library in Ohio which has the Toni Morrison Reading Room. We were putting together a banner display honoring Toni. I had a photo of Toni and Oprah at an event for which I had no origin information. I finally texted some terrific folks I had worked with who put me in touch with someone at Harpo corporate. Within the hour, I had the information I needed, thanks to Oprah’s corporate archive.

            For fun, a link to the digitization here https://digitalarchivegroup.com/portfolio-item/oprah-winfrey-harpo-studios-digital-archive/

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    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Corporate trainer, technical writing, grant writing, workforce development or employee experience (HR positions but focused on professional growth opportunities).

      Reply ↓
    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Project management skills are useful for all corporate jobs. You can pick up the basics by reading a few books or taking a free online class.
      I majored in English and have worked as a technical writer and proposal manager, both of which require writing and project management skills. Look for proposal coordinator roles if you want to start in that field.

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      1. Not your trauma bucket*

        I second this. I have a similar background and similar work history. Proposal development would be a great fit. (Caveat: some orgs do roll budget and text into the same role, but it’s easy enough to screen for those.)

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      2. Rational Lemming*

        Proposals was going to be my suggestion as well. At least in my industry, you don’t need an official Project Manager designation, but those skills are useful. There is a little bit of herding cats aspect (getting SMEs to do their bit on time and in the right format), but the proposals staff is invaluable in my industry (healthcare adjacent). And I would think those skills would travel between industries really well.

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    7. Yes And*

      I don’t have any tips for you. Just piping up to say that GLAM is the acronym I did not know I needed until I saw it. A+, no notes.

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    8. Miette*

      Marketing or advertising? My undergrad degree was in economics and I just sort of fell into a marketing position and found I had an affinity for it. It has since become a career I really love. Depending on the size of company, it is an area where you can really learn a lot quickly, then figure out which niche within it you would want to specialize in–or remain a generalist like I have done. I really enjoy working for small-ish orgs (200 or fewer empoloyees).

      I’ve leveraged my love of writing, being creative, and project management into this and been mostly happy (I don’t love the age-ism these days, but it’s not just in marketing I suppose.)

      A drawback is that there will always be a math component to it–results to be reported/analyzed, budgets to answer to/for, etc., but it’s do-able for me. I’m not working on national brands where extensive data modeling or testing is a factor–and even in those areas, that kind of number crunching would be done by data analysts anyway.

      Someone up thread suggested event planning, and that is also something you may enjoy. I’ve also got a bit of a side gig in event planning for corporate meetings and conferences, and they are so much fun and very rewarding too.

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    10. cmdrspacebabe*

      Writing and organization could both lend themselves well to communications roles – say, managing internal communications for a large organization. For me, that involves receiving a ton of email requests; supporting people on writing products (both the actual words of a product, and the strategic aspects that go into them); and implementing said products (sending mass emails, organizing web content, etc etc.)

      If you’re good with bureaucracy, I would usually recommend considering government roles, which tend to be very heavy on the bureaucratic elements. But if you’re in North America that may not be a great option right now. (:

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    11. Tech Support*

      Even if you’re ultimately interested in industry, looking at the job openings at your university may be useful. I come from a similar background and different areas of higher ed function much more like a business than others. There are so many different types of research, writing, and project management positions. Some higher ups have “chief of staff” roles supporting them, which can range from executive assistant to right-hand person.

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    12. Beth*

      It sounds like you have skills that would be useful in a large number of office jobs, which is great for someone 1 year into their post-college career!

      I’d suggest thinking about what tasks you really enjoy. If want to lean into your communication and organization skills, and you don’t mind a lot of meeting time, project management could be a great fit. Office admins and executive assistants often use those skills too, in different ways.

      On the other hand, if you’d rather focus on leveling up your writing and leaning into your creative side, you might be interested in marketing or communications roles. If you like writing but don’t want to be as creative with it, look into options like technical writing, grant writing, or proposal management.

      If you want your ability to navigate bureaucracy to shine, maybe consider becoming a program manager in a government or education environment, or trying out law as a paralegal. All of those fields can be prone to cumbersome red tape.

      Whatever path you pick, you’re likely to need some additional training or experience to really launch you down that path. Sometimes that can look like getting an entry-level job, but in a tight job market, that can be hard. It’s smart to think ahead, so you have time to take some courses, get a certification, or gain volunteer experience before you launch your next job hunt.

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    13. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Not industry–state government. Consider things like grantwriting (knowing that federal grants are a black hole of nothing right now depending on which state you’re in), working in program coordination for an agency with a mission you appreciate. There are state agencies for archaeology, state libraries and museums, and state agencies also have archival functions; I work in a state agency that has its own library. We also have training, so if the education piece of your experience is calling to you, you might look at acquiring more knowledge around adult learning and development of materials.

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  5. Off Plumb*

    I’m in my 40s and fortunate to have never faced the possibility of layoffs before. But the grant that funds my (government but not federal) position got DOGE’d this week and I’m about to start Day 4 of not knowing how much longer I’m going to be employed.

    For people who’ve been in similar situations – have you actually been able to get any work done while waiting to find out? Is it embarrassing and unprofessional to sometimes cry while at the office (not sobbing or making a fuss, just going somewhere private to let the tears go and take some deep breaths and blow your nose)? I know I should be doing stuff like getting my files in order just in case but I absolutely cannot focus. The first two days were actually ok, there was the adrenaline rush of panicked data gathering and contingency planning. Now that’s gone, and executive leadership has still said nothing (because they’re waiting until they have solid answers to give us, which I think is a mistake) and the bits that I’m getting from my supervisor are making me less and less optimistic.

    My coworkers (none of whom are grant-funded, I’m the only one at risk) have been lovely, but I don’t know if I’m being unprofessionally emotional with them. I have no idea what I’m doing or what’s appropriate or how this is supposed to go. How do other people manage this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      I am so sorry. It should not have to be this way.

      If I were a colleague of yours, I’d be encouraging you to do whatever you need to do and handing you boxes of tissues. But it might be more productive to round up great bullet points for your resume, including finishing current projects so you can report them as successes.

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    3. Momma Bear*

      I’m so sorry. Honestly, I think that if you need some extra long bathroom breaks, go take them. Don’t wait for leadership to tell you that it’s your last day – plan for it. Do what you can each day without burning out and leave notes in case you don’t get to finish it. I’ve been through RIFs and the not knowing is terrible. You see the train but can’t get off the tracks. Leadership wanting to not say anything is unfortunately not uncommon. Try to compartmentalize for your own mental health.

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    4. Yeah this checks out*

      My grant also got DOGEd this week and I have been giving myself a lot of patience. I think your response to the situation is totally valid and I don’t think going off somewhere private to vent is unprofessional especially the way you seem to be doing it , especially if your coworkers are being kind about it all.
      I’m definitely prepping for the worst and have been applying to as many other jobs as I can. It really sucks and I have complete solidarity with you. Having a small list of day to day tasks has been helpful especially as I am feeling like nothing I am doing will matter next week. As long as I check off 1 thing that is something

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    5. mac and cheese*

      I’m in something like week 8 of this which has been enough time to reach the stage of radical acceptance of the impending complete destruction of my life (late 40s here). There are lots and lots of people out there either in the same boat or who are friends with bigger boats looking to help. My advice is to find your people whether it is through a professional society, alumni group, or underground signal chat. Start with the societies (or just subreddits) that relate to the agency that held your grant, once you start to get in to one of these support systems you will be able to find more and more. These support networks have have two months now to percolate and they are actively providing resources from how to apply to unemployment to career workshops on zoom. Some professional societies are already dropping the membership fees or other paywalls to their resources for people who have lost their jobs.

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    6. The Accidental Tourist*

      I have been laid off after we lost grant funding. It was not totally unexpected but there was hope … until there wasn’t. I would try not to cry at work if possible. This is a good time to prove how valuable you are and finish strong. They ended up rehiring me later on a different grant program so I was glad I had kept it together as well as I could. Solidarity and good luck!

      Reply ↓
    7. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Start planning for being laid off. Gather contacts or connect with coworkers and managers on Linked In. Start saving info that you’ll need, such as HR email addresses, performance reviews, etc. Create any instructions or documents that your coworkers may need after you depart.

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    8. 2025 poopstorm*

      I went through this two months ago when my company’s foreign aid projects got terminated. While we were all waiting for the axe to fall, I’d take little breaks from work to write down things I’d done at work over the last five years that were worth remembering when I started job hunting. Not a big, all-at-once inventory, just… I’d be putting together a document and think “oh right, I’ve worked on three projects that involved X,” and I’d go put that in a draft email to myself. After a couple weeks of that I had a few LONG emails of notes to myself that would set me up well to update/tailor my resume and it gave me lots of little brain breaks when I was feeling too unpleasant to work as consistently as usual. Best of luck to you!

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    9. Lemonwhirl*

      I’ve been laid off five times in my nearly 30 year career. A couple of times, I knew it was coming, and it was very hard to focus.

      Your only responsibility right now is to yourself. Please be gentle with yourself and prioritize what you need to be do to be ready if you do get laid off. If your organization is at all reasonable, they will understand that if they can’t give your clarity or security, then you need to look after yourself. Do urgent work, quickly if possible, and let anything that can wait go while you work on building your resume, gathering whatever you need, networking, and job hunting.

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    10. Sam I Am*

      As a human you will have emotions, and if you are excusing yourself once in a while to go have your emotions in private there is nothing wrong with that.
      You may want to network even via reddit or some such place with others in the same boat, and save the connections with your colleagues for proper networking regarding your future. “Being in a bit of a fog about the funding for my position here, I’m keeping my eyes open for other opportunities in (other positions here, similar-not-grant-funded work, the private sector) and if you hear about any Y positions please share them with me. In the mean time I’m making sure that a,b,and c are up to date and available to everyone should I suddenly be asked not to come in. ” or some sort of thing.

      Reply ↓
    11. Off Plumb*

      I really appreciate everyone’s comments, although it’s awful how many people are or have been going through the exact same thing. If it were just up to my division, they’d pay to keep those of us who are grant-funded till the grants were originally set to close. But it’s being handled at the agency level, so my trust in my immediate chain of command counts for less. It’s doubly hard to focus on my job right now, because my job is, in fact, the management of this grant. I really wanted to be able to say (and put on my resume) that I successfully structured the budget so that $x million of grant money was spent with no or minimal unspent funds, and now the primary mission of the past two years has evaporated into thin air. This grant was my baby. (All the decisions being made about how to divert funding and what contracts to terminate are being made above my level – Tuesday and Wednesday I was frantically pulling data together, but I’m not part of the process anymore.)

      It’s 5pm here and there has still been no messaging from anyone in division or agency leadership – not just about staffing decisions, but about the loss of hundreds of millions of dollars. Can someone with management experience explain why anyone would think it was a good idea to keep silent for days after it’s been in the news, leaving staff to worry and speculate without even the slightest official acknowledgement that this is happening? When I was originally informed, I was told it was highly confidential; one of my coworkers is fully remote and I don’t know if she even knows. We had a team meeting in which it never came up; we’ve been getting emails from the division director with updates about internal stuff as if someone joining the leadership team is the only important thing going on.

      On the plus side, my boss and grandboss have been trying to find a way to move me to a permanent, non-grant-funded position for a couple of months already, since the grant was going to end later this year and they very much want to keep me around. And for the same reason, I had an interview on Monday for a closely-related position in the same general area of the division. The job search just needs to be sped up, not started from scratch.

      I’m not in danger of losing my life, or my housing (for a while), which is more than can be said for the people relying on the services we funded. I do understand why staff retention isn’t the highest-priority problem right now.

      Reply ↓
      1. Firefighter (Metaphorical)*

        You asked:

        Can someone with management experience explain why anyone would think it was a good idea to keep silent for days after it’s been in the news, leaving staff to worry and speculate without even the slightest official acknowledgement that this is happening?

        I haven’t been in exactly this situation, and I don’t think your management is doing the right thing, but I would imagine that they are frantically running around making plans, consulting, redoing budgets, and that the situation is changing so quickly that they don’t even really notice how much time is passing. Also, the kind of communications that are needed in this situation are super tricky to write, because they have to be clear but provisional and they will be read by multiple people through multiple lenses – and in a state of high emotions and high stakes. (Also as soon as you send comms out you will be inundated with responses, queries, nitpicks, hostile interpretations, and those all take time to reply to and are emotionally draining.) It takes time to get the comms right and while you’re doing that, the situation has changed anyway, so you have to start again.

        To be clear, I think it is your managers’ responsibility to communicate – just that these are some of the reasons why it’s easy and tempting to dodge that responsibility in the moment, from my experience in chaotic environments.

        I hope this is helpful. I am really sorry you are going through this, it’s awful, and it sounds like you’re navigating it as well as a person could. Good luck.

        Reply ↓
  6. Laggy Lu*

    I’m looking for opinions about reaching out to a former colleague, after being laid off last year.

    In July of last year I was laid off from my job for budget reasons. Our org (non-profit) had budget shortfalls for a while, and I had previously survived 2 other layoffs (I lost my only staff person during the previous one). While I was surprised (although in retrospect I shouldn’t have been), I was actually kind of relieved, and I agreed with their decision. Basically they paired down mine and another closely related staff persons positions, and merged them into one. Both the other person and I were capable of doing the new job, and were valued employees. It came down to numbers – it was more expensive to keep me on, than her.

    The woman who was my supervisor (she is senior leadership) and I had a lot in common, and I always thought she and I could be friends, outside of work. With everything going on now (the org gets like 80% of their annual revenue from Fed contracts and grants, and her husband is (was?) a Fed), I want to reach out to her to see how she’s doing. I want to stress, I am not looking for tea on the org or secretly hoping they are failing or anything. I really want to reconnect, and I think enough time has passed, that it’s OK Also, she might appreciate someone who understands how things operate, if she did want to vent.

    What do you all think? OK idea or bad idea?

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    1. MsM*

      Totally fine. Worst case, she’ll probably just say she’s too busy to chat (which, understandable) or not respond. I don’t think you’ll lose anything by it.

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    3. LadyMTL*

      I’m actually very good friends with a former colleague, and one of the reasons why the friendship got off the ground is that we were very casual about it. (She left the company, and I’m still there.) I’d go for it, but in a low-key way…send a text saying something like “Hi XYZ, this might be out of the blue but I was thinking about you yesterday / last week / when I saw a woman in the grocery store who looked like you. Just wanted to say hi, I hope things are going well! Feel free to reach out if you want to chat.”

      If she doesn’t reply, then let it go ofc. Though I’d be surprised if she doesn’t at least send a brief text back.

      Reply ↓
      2. Can't hurt to ask*

        When I got laid off, one of my direct reports sent me a text basically saying, “hey you aren’t my boss anymore, can we be friends now?” I appreciated it, and we still text several times a week.

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    4. Pixelated Penguin*

      It’s fine, unless “friends outside of work” means “I also kinda like her as more than friends,” in which case, bad idea.

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  7. UpEnded*

    Higher education colleagues — how nervous are you feeling? I’m at an elite institution (not Columbia) and generally feeling really down about the state of attack on our organizations in the U.S.. What do you think the actual risk is to higher education institutions in the age of Trump 2.0? Should we all start looking for jobs in Canada?

    Reply ↓
    1. Spacewoman Spiff*

      I’m pretty anxious but trying to push those feelings down and just focus on my work, since whatever happens is totally outside my control. I am worried it’s going to get much worse, and in ways that are so outside the norm that I can’t even imagine them at this point. In past jobs when I sensed things were getting shaky, I would start job hunting…but I really love my current job and have decided not to do any job hunting as long as I’m employed by my university.

      Reply ↓
    2. Pay no attention...*

      I feel okay so far in my department but the institution as a whole is in full panic mode and we’re a fairly small university. If the gov yanks any of the small dollars we get from grants though, whole degree programs will probably get cut. I’m much more worried about our students, both physical safety and mental health.

      Reply ↓
    3. Admin of Sys*

      Very anxious. We’ve got a hiring freeze and are looking for budget cuts, and I doubt it’s going to get any better any time soon. Additionally, the market is getting flooded with DOGE’d folks.

      Reply ↓
    4. Annika Hansen*

      I work at the flagship state U. I was just reviewing our budget to find items to cut. They are trying to avoid layoffs, but I think there will be a few. Being an R1, we do get a lot of funding through federal grants. I am hoping that I can stay employed. I am less than 5 years from being eligible for retirement. In the 2008 financial crisis, we had to take intermittent furlough days. I am cutting my spending and hoping I can ride this out. My husband works in an adjacent industry.

      Reply ↓
      1. Elitist Semicolon*

        Similar situation here. I’m in a non-STEM field so a lot of my colleagues are worried that we’ll be cut either in part or in full to recover the loss of grants in STEM. We’re getting emails from central admin with requests to curtail work travel and spending on supplies, as if not buying paperclips will help. I’m fully expecting to be furloughed at some point; we were out in I think 2012 and again in 2020. It would cool if they’d furlough the $1 million/year athletic director first, but of course it’ll be service workers and student-facing staff that are hit the hardest (or flat-out cut).

        Reply ↓
      1. Elitist Semicolon*

        This seems unnecessarily aggressive. Brain drain is real and it’s not unusual for foreign universities to pick up faculty or administrators from the U.S. when they can. University of Toronto just picked up three political scientists from Yale and I doubt they’ll be the last to go. Foreign universities that have the budgets and are trying to expand certain fields or have active hiring initiatives beyond single open positions are undoubtedly looking around to see who might be persuaded to leave. (It’s weirdly similar to the transfer window in professional sports.)

        Reply ↓
        1. Pay no attention...*

          Yeah, I think we’ll lose quite a lot of scientists in a number of fields to international universities. The U.S. is going to suffer for it.

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        2. dulcinea47*

          Considering the number of people whose jobs are in question, this isn’t realistic for most. Only the top few professors will get positions in other countries; the rest of us don’t qualify to move there for a variety of reasons. Acting like this is a solution for anyone but the tiniest percentage of people is nonsensical.

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          1. basil and thyme*

            Yes, and to add to your point, it’s not like the US is the only source of talented researchers in the world.

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          2. Kt*

            On the one hand yes, on the other hand no. Some solid players especially in science will be able to go to Directional U in Not-a-big country.

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          3. JSPA*

            Full time faculty, maybe not. Visiting researcher (semester appointment) for anyone they normally couldn’t get even as a seminar speaker, at a smaller institution? Much more likely, and that level of visa has traditionally been pretty straightforward.

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        3. fallingleavesofnovember*

          There was an article on the Guardian the other day about this – a French university already offering “academic asylum” (might have just been a catchy phrase for the article, not a technical asylum classification or anything) and the author of the opinion piece did some of the numbers on if the EU wanted to invest big in research to pull in a bunch of US academics.

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      2. Beth*

        Everyone who job hunts is going into it with an attitude of “I want X, let’s find out if they want me.” That’s true regardless of their goals–you won’t know if someone might pay you more unless you put yourself out there and get some offers, you won’t know if a university in Canada might hire you unless you apply. I’d argue that going in with a negative “I don’t think X would want me, why would they want me?” perspective would be pretty self-defeating to someone trying to make a change.

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      3. UpEnded*

        The way I read your comment, it sounds like you might be having a rough day. Hope you have a good weekend!

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    6. Warrant Officer Georgiana Breakspear-Goldfinch*

      I’m trying very hard not to worry, because there’s literally nothing I can do (outside, you know, calling my elected reps and protesting on my own time and whatnot). But we’re all pretty tense on my campus.

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    7. online millenial*

      My university just sent out their DEI rollback info. Offices closing, long-term plans cancelled. I’m in a field that’s DEI-adjacent but not as directly targeted… yet. It’s a huge public institution that can’t really afford to go without the federal money, but I also know some regents and alums have been frothing at the mouth to eliminate these programs and initiatives. It’s depressing as hell, and I’m trying not to think about how terrible my employment prospects are if certain laws get overturned.

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      1. Hanani*

        If that email went out yesterday we might be at the same institution.

        It’s awful. There’s fear about my job, fear about what’s next (because it sure as hell won’t stop with “don’t say DEI”, this is the authoritarian playbook), fear for my colleagues and students, on and on.

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    8. Charley*

      Does your campus have a union? I’m a full-time grad worker at a state school (so in an admittedly different position from faculty or staff, in that I never expected to be here long term), and I think things will be Bad, but I’ve found my union to be a better source of information on what’s going on as a result of cuts within our institution vs. the university admin, which has been pretty tight lipped.

      Reply ↓
    9. CzechMate*

      Very. But I was on a webinar yesterday where an attorney said, “You’re going to remember this period for the rest of your lives. But if you take appropriate actions, you can look back on it as a time when you helped a lot of people.”

      So, I’m trying to keep that in mind as I trudge forward.

      Reply ↓
    10. Ally McBeal*

      I used to work at Columbia and I am so damn glad I quit during the pandemic. I am absolutely furious and ashamed – but not surprised – by the CU administration’s ongoing capitulation, and if our most influential & wealthy institutions won’t stand up when it matters (see also what’s going on in Big Law right now) then what is the point of their existence in the first place?

      That said, Canada isn’t the answer. You might consider switching to a different field if you can’t bear the stress and grief of staying in higher ed for the next four years… but my time in higher ed reminded me how short 4 years actually is. Assuming we continue having free & fair elections, we may be able to start rebuilding in less than 4 years, and the rebuilding phase COULD be really productive and emotionally restorative, even if the ground has been salted and burned.

      Reply ↓
      2. Academic Physics*

        I’m at a Columbia – esq university right now and I agree, the ‘big name’ universities won’t do squat to help out even their graduate students is my pessimistic take. Makes me very sorry, but also my job prospects are so slim that leaving where I am seems more foolhardy than helpful.

        That said, if anyone has any advice or resources on how to support my grad students who are international that would be very appreciated!

        Reply ↓
        1. Sam I Am*

          If you can buy everyone a pizza every third Thursday or something like that… maybe make cookies at home and have a coffee hour? In addition to actual resistance, building community right now, giving people a space to get together with fellow humans is an important act. It’s why they tell you to build in pot luck dinners to your organizing schedule.

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        2. CzechMate*

          I work in an international student office at a Columbia-eque university.

          1. Don’t give immigration advice. Direct your students to the international student office.
          2. You CAN give your students ACLU Red Cards, which let them know their rights if they encounter ICE officials.
          3. Ask your department what the protocol is if ICE comes to your campus.

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        3. Not an academic anymore*

          For your students who are international – do your absolute best to offer them flexibility. Learn what resources your university has for international students and make sure your students are connected to them. Be an easy person to ask if they need help–make sure they know they can come to you.

          Maybe most importantly, think about what flexibility your department can offer. If a student has visa issues, can you offer graduate seminars on a remote basis so they can join from their home country? Can students finish writing their graduate thesis or dissertation from abroad? If a leave of absence is needed, can you help them through the bureaucracy of that process? Graduating students who want to stay in the US might struggle to find visa-sponsoring jobs right now; can you allow them to stay enrolled in the program for another semester or year to give them more job hunting time? (If you can, are you able to offer funding to cover that? Some might want it even if you can’t–just make sure they know what’s possible.)

          If all else fails, think about your international colleagues in your field. If one of your students can’t continue in your program due to this, maybe you can help them connect with a potential advisor at a university in their home country, with the goal of transferring and completing their degree there.

          Reply ↓
        4. Yet Another Academic*

          All of this is good advice– I’ll add a tiny bit more. Are you a member of the AAUP? If not, I highly recommend joining; they’re currently suing the Trump administration over research cuts and crackdowns on free speech. Whether you join or not, at least check out their website for lots of very good info on navigating these things (including lots of immigration-related know-your-rights info), plus help in banding together with your colleagues to build more collective power.

          Reply ↓
      3. anon for this*

        Columbia is my alma mater & I worked there for seven years. I had a lot of emotions about how poorly they treated staff during the pandemic, and I’m beyond-words appalled at the choices they’ve been making lately. I have communicated my displeasure (including informing them they have lost my donations forever), but I am so glad I’m not there any more.

        Reply ↓
    11. RA*

      Over the last few weeks, I’ve become less worried about myself as an individual and my job. If I’m laid off, it’ll be bad but I’ll figure it out. I’m now much more worried about academia/research as a whole and very scared for the students and researchers being targeted for their activism.

      For me, moving to Canada is not an option. I wish that those around me wouldn’t joke about it and instead redirect their energy into protecting what we value in the US.

      Reply ↓
    12. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      I’m at a state flagship R1, and I manage a research program. I’m nervous. Close colleagues just lost a HUGE grant that was simply terminated, because one of the projects involved LGBTQ+ populations. FFS. We may lose our NIH-funded training program due to the trainees’ focus being very health equity centric, which would hugely suck for our trainees, but since no one but the trainees gets any actual support from that I think the second hit would be losing the indirects. And I anticipate there will be cuts to those at some point also.

      My program has other funding from the state, but I’m mostly nervous about what happens when the institution and the center I work for start looking for ways to stop the bleeding as grants disappear and the F&A rates get lower. My program’s funding may be on the table at that point.

      I don’t have any plans to look around since I’m ~10 years from retirement and want my state benefits. But it is pretty terrible all around. We are all wondering how to mentally and emotionally (and physically and financially!) survive the rest of the year, much less 4 years. I feel you!!

      Reply ↓
    13. Blue Pen*

      How the endowment tax ends up is going to be what makes or breaks us. If they raise it significantly and it passes through Congress, we’re in big trouble. If it stays where it is or only goes a few percentage points higher, we should be OK for the most part.

      Reply ↓
    14. Alex*

      I’m also at a non-Columbia yet still elite institution, as staff. Generally fairly nervous and just angry at the BS. I’m hoping my job is OK for now, but don’t really feel super safe.

      Canada is not really in less trouble than we are, though. There’s no were to go that is not F’d.

      Reply ↓
    15. VetHelpingVets*

      Whoo buddy, is it an interesting time to be in student services at a podunk community college.

      So much of our student body relies on Pell, and between the students not knowing for sure that it’ll be there for the 25-26 year and us not knowing if DeptEd money is going to get pushed in a lump to a state-level fund (in a red state) as rumored vs. administered at the Federal level…

      The only people who are seeing job security right now are the counseling staff.

      Reply ↓
    16. R1 Prof with Fingers Crossed*

      I’m faculty at one of the universities on the regime’s hit list. We expect to lose going on $2 billion in federal income (between research grants and financial aid to students). Hiring freeze has been announced. All merit raises have been frozen (again– they were frozen during the pandemic, too).

      We haven’t gotten rid of DEI, but we have purged the words “diversity,” “equity,” and “inclusion” from pretty much everything, changing job titles, department names, etc. (Haven’t changed course titles yet, but it’s coming, I expect.)

      My specific field gets next to nothing from grants, so we aren’t directly affected. But everyone is nervous. And also pissed about the freezes.

      I talked to a dean in my school yesterday, and they told me our administration expects us to move out of crisis mode in 2026, with funding on its way back up again. I don’t know if this is wishful thinking, a plan to tap into our endowment at that time, or just happy talk to keep people from pure panic.

      Reply ↓
  8. No Tribble At All*

    Inspired by #1 on this morning’s post — what are some work travel stories of things that were/weren’t expensed?

    I have one. For my first job, I did a transatlantic work trip during the summer, so hotels and flights were very expensive. My boss had to buy the business-class plane tickets for me as the company didn’t have a travel booking system yet. They also promised they would use the company card for the hotel bill, as my credit limit wasn’t very high. And yet, I had to put my credit card down for incidentals, and when I went to check out — boom, maxed my credit card. Had to call the local boss’s personal cell phone to get him to read his card number over the phone because they never pre-arranged to use the company card (:

    Reply ↓
    1. Laggy Lu*

      Before my previous job, all my travel was expensed for what I paid (no per diem) – I just had to keep all receipts.
      At my last job, we had a per diem, and it sucks. It’s like $50 a day (and changes where you are), which barely covers 3 meals out. And if a meal is provided, you have to declare it and so you don’t get that portion. It’s like $12 for breakfast, $15 for lunch, and $20-25 for dinner. Where can you get dinner for $25?

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        $25 for dinner is bonkers. Heck, when I was down in LA (and not a fancy part of LA but a regular people part of LA) my (admittedly nice) take out coffee and avocado toast was $20.

        Maybe if you’re only eating fast food you could eat that cheap, but that’s going to catch up with you.

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      2. PotatoRock*

        for everywhere in the US, ours is…$11 breakfast, $13 lunch, $17 dinner
        I remember being on a trip, standing in a McDonald’s SO HUNGRY trying to calculate the best calories-to-dollars ratio (it’s milkshakes.), when my rational brain has to remind my lizard brain “hey, you have other money. You can afford food” – and I went to a grocery store and bought a bunch of snacks. Not an excuse for the company being stingy though!

        Reply ↓
        1. Sam I Am*

          When I had a sales gig I figured out the best nutrition for the money on the road at gas station was those tubes of nuts.

          Reply ↓
          1. Wolf*

            I had several business trips in Switzerland. I figured out that the supermarket next to the hotel had a “50% off for foods that need to sell today” deal in the last half hour before closing for the evening. So I got fresh bread, cheese and (sometimes slightly mushy) grapes every evening – which is pretty good nutrition on a budget.

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    2. Chocolate Teapot*

      I once had to attend a meeting and all attendees were staying in the same posh 5 star hotel. I had budgeted to pay for my room but had little money left over.

      When checking in, I was asked for my credit card. It was swiped by the receptionist and I was promptly informed it had been declined. Apparently the hotel always put a block of a thousand euros on a guest’s credit card, but I had not been informed of this in advance.

      Fortunately my boss was able to use her company credit card for the guarantee but it was embarrassing.

      Reply ↓
        1. Chocolate Teapot*

          It was the classic case of Big Boss having a company credit card, ordinary employees had to pay for themselves and submit a claim for reimbursement. And equally it would take a while to be reimbursed, which isn’t great when you don’t have a spare thousand euros floating around.

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          1. JustaTech*

            Yes! Just before I got my work travel card I had a last-minute-ish trip to Europe (last minute because the Powers that Be wouldn’t decide on who was going or when). Because of our rules about flights, I ended up having to float a $10,000 plane ticket until I got back and could get reimbursed. (Plus train tickets, hotel and food.)

            Thankfully my credit card limit could take that, and I was happy for the points, but it’s not my job as an IC to be giving my company interest-free loans.

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          2. Strive to Excel*

            I’ve got a cash-back card & not a lot of spending so I don’t mind doing this within reason on my own card. But it should always be the employee’s option, not something required.

            Reply ↓
          3. Wolf*

            Been there, done that. With plane tickets and hotel, it was up to 3 months’ wages and it took 2-3 months to get reimbursed. The things we put up with in academia…

            Reply ↓
    3. Jane 2*

      A literary agency I used to work for sent me to their New York office and I slept on an air mattress at the foot of a friend’s bed :) They told me I was embarrassing myself by asking for a meal stipend because when their agents traveled they covered all of their own expenses (I was 22, the office manager, and had graduated college literally a month ago). They did agree to the meal stipend but I didn’t even consider asking them to put me up overnight.

      Reply ↓
      1. Jane 2*

        The nightmare of a woman I worked for is no longer there after running off 5 assistants in 8 years (longest tenure-5 years, shortest- 3months) but everyone who knew she was a problem and didn’t care still is.

        Reply ↓
      2. The OG Sleepless*

        Embarrassing yourself, omg. As a new grad being sent to a super high COL city? They should be embarrassed.

        Reply ↓
  9. Emac*

    Is it too disingenuous to put on my resume “10+ years of experience” when I have about 19 years of experience? I’m doing this to try to avoid age-related discrimination. Or do I just not put anything about years of experience on my resume? Do I just take the profile section off all together?

    Reply ↓
    1. Coffeemate is searching the globe*

      You could have two versions of the resume – one that includes 10+ years if the JD mentions something like that. If not you could send the copy without that phrase

      Reply ↓
      1. Seashell*

        Having looked at resume samples online and discussing resumes with my spouse, who has applied for jobs in recent years, it seems like it’s common nowadays to put a summary on top. (Presumably for people who are too lazy to read beyond the first few lines.)

        Maybe that’s where it would go?

        Reply ↓
        1. Ally McBeal*

          Alison is notably anti-summary, as am I. Cover letters are where you can include summary-style language – putting it in the resume just eats up valuable space that illustrates what your experience actually IS and how your experience connects to impact.

          Reply ↓
    3. The Magician's Auntie*

      I’m interested in this too. I have this question for my whole approach, so – CV (outside US) and cover letter.

      Being able to say “10+ years of experience” sounds like a useful way to get around the issue, and I like it. But I wonder if it’s ok and if it looks ok.

      Reply ↓
    4. RagingADHD*

      You don’t need a profile section on your actual resume, but it’s fine to phrase it that way on your LinkedIn profile.

      I’ve done the same, and yes it does make a difference. I like my boss and company very much, but I am confident that I would not have my current job if they perceived me as being the same age as my teammate (which I am).

      The somewhat business related reason is that the third person at my level retired last year, and my peer is taking early retirement this year, so they want long term stability. I am 12-15 years from retirement, but if I hadn’t removed all the dates and gone in looking and sounding as “energetic” as possible, I’m pretty sure they would have passed me over in favor of someone younger.

      Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      It’s fine – I would do as you mention. It’s a good idea to match your experience to the level of the job you want, and if your resume cuts off at 2 pages (which is pretty standard), then it may not have your full work history on there.

      You may find it more helpful, though, to specify your years of experience at the seniority level you are targeting. For example, “5+ years of director level experience in llama grooming management” doesn’t give away anything about age, but does tell a recruiter that you may be suited for Sr. Director or VP roles in the llama industry.

      Of course, make sure that your current role of “Director, Llama Grooming” is quite prominent, so that your resume gets flagged as qualified, rather than passed over if someone just sees “5+ years”.

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    6. Annony*

      I wouldn’t think you would need to mention it unless you are for some reason including less than 10 years of work experience in your resume.

      Reply ↓
  10. Carrots*

    My coworker was watching a video on YouTube and it was very loud. I kindly asked if she could lower the volume. She refused and said that she couldn’t hear it at a lower volume. Then she made some remark to me like “must be nice that you can hear it all the way over by you.” (Our area isn’t that big and we sit close together.)

    A staff member came over to ask her a question and she still had the video blasting. She said that she would switch to headphones, but then told me that hers didn’t work.

    I’m surprised by the remark about how I could hear it all the way by me. Usually people apologize and turn down the volume or switch to headphones.

    This coworker has a stronger personality- the managers know this, but don’t do anything about it.

    Any tips for dealing with a situation and people like this?

    Reply ↓
    1. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      If she has a hearing impairment, headphones might be an employer-paid accommodation. See if she can be motivated by the prospect of the boss buying her new, working ones.

      Reply ↓
    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I would buy a pair of inexpensive earbuds and toss them on her desk. Sheesh, I don’t get people who play loud videos in public.

      Reply ↓
      1. JustaTech*

        I was eating breakfast at a hotel recently where the woman two tables down from me was watching some dating show. I know it was a dating show because I could hear every single word of it, even though she was at least 10 feet away.
        For the life of me I couldn’t figure out why she thought it was a reasonable thing to do, even if it was later in the morning and not super crowded.

        Reply ↓
        1. WellRed*

          At my local Applebees there is a person who at least twice now, has had dinner and drinks while on a video date(?) with his girlfriend who appeared to be at her local Applebees. Cute idea, I guess but use your fricken headphones!

          Reply ↓
      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        My dad was doing this just a few days ago as we were in an airport. He is not tech-savvy and is very hard of hearing, and was playing a very loud video on his tablet. I told him it was really loud and he was like, well, it’s loud in here anyway and I don’t actually care that I’m annoying people. (True, it was pretty loud in there but his video was still louder than all the actual humans talking.) When we were on the plane he saw folks using their phones and thought they were using the airplane wifi and wanted me to sign him in so he could watch his video. Rather than tell him that he can’t watch a video out loud on a plane (ffs) I just told him the wifi wasn’t working. I actually don’t know if it was or not – the other ppl may have been watching stuff they’d downloaded – but I sure as heck wasn’t about to have him get in a fist fight with fellow passengers because he’s too terrible of a person to realize how rude he is. He even has noise-canceling headphones, but did he think to bring them with him??? Nope.

        I do not plan to travel with him anymore.

        Reply ↓
        1. JustCuz*

          Oh is your dad my dad? I never understand it. All you have to do is NOT do something and then no one is mad. But no. They choose to cause fights. Because thats the entire thing, right? They KNOW not to do it and therefore are doing it knowing it will cause a fight.

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    4. AnonymousOctopus*

      Not that it excuses it at all but people who have recently started experiencing hearing loss are often going through the stages of grief, sometimes without even realizing it. Many are resistant to hearing aids and other accommodations for a variety of reasons, while also experiencing extra frustration and fatigue due to said hearing loss. People who point out that they are being loud or are missing/misunderstanding things spoken to them are often caught in the crossfire.

      None of that is your problem or something that you can help with, and your colleague should be reminded that she cannot disrupt others or snap at people. But I’ve been in a similar position to you and reminding myself of the social-emotional impact of hearing loss helped me not lose my cool and made me able to approach things with some more compassion.

      Reply ↓
      2. So Over It*

        I don’t think hearing loss has anything to do with it. Watching or listening to something on your phone in public without earphones is uncivilized behavior.

        Reply ↓
        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Yeah, there are plenty of people out there (see my previous comment re: my dad) who don’t realize how rude they are being and then when you point it out to them don’t even care. People really drive me nuts sometimes, which is why I’m super pleased to be living alone with my cats.

          Reply ↓
        3. bel*

          It is, but the coworker said she couldn’t hear a lower volume and made that “must be nice” comment. I think she’s both rude and having trouble with her hearing LOL.

          Reply ↓
    5. learnedthehardway*

      The “it must be nice” thing sounds like your coworker is upset by their hearing loss. Perhaps embarrassed, too.

      Not that it excuses the passive aggressiveness, of course.

      However, rather than being snippy back, I would be more focused on finding a solution that works for you both.

      Reply ↓
    6. Samwise*

      By “stronger personality”, I assume you mean “is a self-centered jerk”

      I wouldn’t respond to the snarky remark (in my head, I’m saying: of course I can hear it. The barista on the first floor can hear it, it’s so loud).

      If it happens again — you ask, she snarks, you just say, pleasantly and evenly, “It’s loud enough to disrupt my work, so could you please turn it down? Thanks”

      Escalate to your supervisor if she doesn’t respond, asking them what they suggest you do next, because it’s making it very hard to finish those TPS reports on time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Samwise*

        And before anyone flames me — I wear hearing aids, I get what it’s like to struggle with your hearing, but that in no way excuses crappy rude behavior. People with medical problems, disabilities, family difficulties etc etc etc don’t get a pass to be rude and unprofessional.

        You can be kind and pleasant in your requests, but you do get to make the request and when it’s a super reasonable one, you are completely reasonable to expect it to be fulfilled.

        Reply ↓
    7. Annie*

      If you don’t think you will get anywhere by talking to her or anyone else about it again, get earplugs. Better yet, get a little container of earplugs to share with coworkers!

      Reply ↓
  11. Stuart Foote*

    I am curious to see what others are seeing…now that business are starting to fully enforce RTO, are people seeing any big efficiency or collaboration gains? Is RTO working well for companies?

    I suspect a lot of the more vocal people online are the folks for whom WFH is better–are there a lot of others out there who are seeing good things from RTO?

    Reply ↓
    1. Valerie Loves Me*

      My unpopular opinion is that some version of RTO is good for the workforce, especially younger professionals. There is an element of learning when you get to overhear others at work or just the ability to pop into someone’s office for 5 minutes to ask a question that doesn’t really warrant scheduling a meeting.

      I fully understand the benefits of WFH, but I think the pushback on RTO is extreme at times.

      Reply ↓
      1. Laggy Lu*

        My husband’s company has struggled with this a lot. Their entire business model is built around hiring recent grads (engineers), training them, and moving them up the ranks in the company. Since it’s an engineering consulting firm, it’s very hard to cross train and know who’s doing what/where the opportunities are for the new hires with everyone virtual. And the new hires want all the flexibility of WFH and the benefits of their positions. It’s been a struggle for them.

        Reply ↓
      2. Richard Hershberger*

        My note is that some version of RTO is good for some portion of the workforce. It depends on the details of the specific job. The broad-brush discussions I see so often seem to work hard to miss this point.

        Reply ↓
      3. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

        I really think hybrid is best of both worlds. I get more done at home in terms of sheer volume of work, but the human interaction/knowledge osmosis of being in the office is also really valuable – it’s how institutional knowledge is built, IMO. I’m a manager and fully remote managing is hard. 2 days in office is plenty for all of the in-office stuff though I think. I think requiring people to be back 100% in office after the pandemic amply proved that work can be done remotely is too rigid a stance.

        Reply ↓
        1. Jill Swinburne*

          Useful info like ‘John in x never replies on Teams, Abby in xx does very responsively though and can answer most of those questions’ is generally the kind of useful information that only comes up in chit-chat.

          I like hybrid for that reason – at my new work there are no questions asked if you need to wfh for whatever reason (some roles lend themselves to it more than others) , but there are enough people in the office that you still get to organically learn about the organisation.

          Reply ↓
    2. cmdrspacebabe*

      The gains I’ve seen have been mostly in interpersonal relationships, which might have some secondary effects on collaboration. We’d been out so long that I hadn’t even met a lot of my newer coworkers, and putting names/personalities to faces has actually been more helpful than I thought – request processes with certain teams feel smoother now, for example, because I have a better read on tone and communication preferences with the key players (“X isn’t annoyed, that’s just how they talk”, “Y is probably the best person to ask about this”, that sort of thing).

      Reply ↓
      1. KB*

        On the contrary, sharing space creates a lot of interpersonal PROBLEMS. I’m a much better colleague when I don’t have to hear you crack your knuckles. I’ve done plenty of remote collaboration with folks I’ve never met in person. Frankly, working in-person is distracting and I have a lot less patience in person than online.

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    3. VoPo*

      I like being in the office. As a manager, I like having face to face time with my team. It’s so much easier to do a quick check in when you can pop by someone’s desk. Also, I have constant access to my own manager, so things I need feedback or approval for get done so much faster.

      Mentally, I like having a clear start and end to my day with a buffer in between. Of course, this is when my train is running on time! When there are delays, I definitely wish I was working from home with no commute.

      My previous job was fully remote, and I hated it. Most of that was because the company sucked. So really my biggest takeaway is that being remote or in person matters so much less to me than being in a role that I like at a company that treats me with respect.

      Reply ↓
      1. allathian*

        I hate, hate, hate people just popping in with no warning. I work so much better when I can control whether or not I allow someone to distract me or not.

        But then, I’m an experienced SME in a job where we very rarely need to drop everything to deal with an emergency, and I have a lot of autonomy. I basically never get asked for progress reports except in scheduled meetings. I mostly need my manager to intervene if my internal customers are setting unrealistic expectations.

        That said, a schedule where I meet at least some of my teammates once a week and my boss (who has to travel to visit my office) works for me far better than the total WFH during the lockdowns.

        Reply ↓
    4. Strive to Excel*

      This is a slightly different answer, but I think still fits. I was a financial auditor from 21-24, so I had several client engagements where I worked with them virtually for the first year or two and then travelled to them in person the next time. For those less familiar with audit, we try to do our work on-site as much as possible. Being on-site in-person with a client was significantly easier and faster.

      There’s a common auditing pattern where we ask the client for a round of documents, review them, and then come back with questions and/or requests for more documents. Those secondary levels of review are very painful to do virtually. It involves writing a list, sending it to the client, they answer back with clarifications, we clarify, we get some of the documents, email back for some more, etc etc etc. The process can take days or weeks since we’re playing email telephone the whole time, and that’s before any handling of sensitive data that can’t be electronically transmitted. In person? I walk over to the person’s cubicle, introduce myself, review their screen with them for 15 minutes, and we’re done.

      So I can say with some certainty that while WFH works decently for teams that have been operating together for a while, in-office is preferable if you have to work with someone you’re not so familiar with.

      Reply ↓
    5. Aneurin*

      Agree that from my perspective, the more vocal people (and not just online – I see it in our internal Slack-equivalent etc. as well) are definitely pro-WFH and anti-RTO.

      My job (I’m a team lead who works closely with the team manager) is made a lot easier when the team is all in the office, almost entirely from a collaboration perspective. It’s much easier to check in with (groups of) team members when you don’t have to keep an eye on everyone’s online status, for example.

      I really notice the difference between collaborating with the team manager, who’s in the office most of the days I am, vs collaborating with other team members who are barely in the office. The former is much much easier than the latter (even taking into account that me + team manager = 2 people and me + team = a lot more people).

      Reply ↓
    6. Jules the First*

      Nope. Not seeing the “benefits” of RTO for our people. We’ve actually seen a lot of attrition from people who decided to leave the business rather than RTO. To the point that there was a formal conversation around a month ago about unenforcing RTO (we went hard and early back in September). There are isolated teams where there’s been a short term improvement, but when our HR team ran cross-comparisons with similar teams it turns out that the difference is mostly down to manager skill – unskilled managers get better results from in person teams but there’s no difference between the performance of WFH and on-site teams where the manager has strong management skills.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tea Monk*

        I’m ok with a very limited RTO. Like touching base for a few hours is easier but I really need a lot more breaks and movement.

        Reply ↓
    7. Seashell*

      My husband works for a big corporation and has recently returned to going in to the office a few days a week. I don’t know that it’s hugely helpful for him to be in, but he sometimes chats with random people and that has lead to new connections that might help with projects at work or personal networking. It is a little more peaceful for me to not have him around all the time.

      My work is close to 100% fine with communication by online contact or phone calls, so when/if I have to return to the office, it will be fairly pointless.

      Reply ↓
    8. Fly on the Wall*

      For collaboration with people I find it easier. However my productivity has dropped by almost 50% and I am actually working more hours.

      Reply ↓
    9. Hyaline*

      So…I am in the minority in our (academic) department, but some version of in-office is IMO really helpful for collaboration and collegiality. IMO full time RTO is unnecessary in my field (and most others, probably) but being fully or almost nearly fully remote has drawbacks. Absolutely none of my job needs to be done in office; my teaching needs to be in person but I never HAVE to be in my office. Yet, a lot of connection with colleagues happens when we’re in the office at the same time, and it’s more than just friendly cohesiveness, it’s that we problem solve together, share challenges, compare notes, and generally end up understanding the whole program better. I’m noticing some issues like programatic drift, differing expectations, and generally not having much cohesiveness as a department because we’re rarely actually together. I would kinda like there to be a “prime hours” expectation where it’s the norm that you’re in office a bit more and a return to in-office meetings instead of only Zoom; most of my colleagues come to teach and then leave. (This will never happen in my department in a top-down way and I can only see it changing if more people prefer in-office and shift the culture that direction.)

      Reply ↓
    10. Kt*

      RTO is good for younger professionals. But also I just spent three days in office and didn’t get a darn thing done, so now I’m trying to cram it all in on wfh Friday!

      Reply ↓
    11. miel*

      I have a flexible, hybrid schedule and I appreciate it.

      I do like the ability to talk in-person with people. And some parts of my job can’t be done via a computer screen.

      I also firmly believe that any sort of heavy-handed micromanaging of people’s work schedules and locations is counterproductive (at least for the type of work we usually discuss on this site: professional, white-collar, exempt).

      Reply ↓
    12. An Australian in London*

      I’ve been all over the radar on this and have mellowed from my early “RTO is rubbish, and there is never any good reason for it”.

      My hopefully more nuanced view is that RTO works well when the organisation walks the walk, rather than just talking the talk. This means having enough of the right kind of physical infrastructure (hint: huge open-plan cubicle farm with low walls is not the right kind; HBR has studied this to death; this is evidence-based and I’ll die on this hill). Plenty of meeting rooms. Enough desks for permanent allocations rather than hot-desking. Quiet areas/floors where calls aren’t allowed. A work culture that actively seeks to gain value and advantage from people being in the same location, and spends enough money on it to realise those gains.

      As a freelance consultant active in multiple (Western, English-speaking) countries I see a lot of client workplaces. Maybe 1 in 50 satisfy all the criteria above. For the other 49 it seems to be some mix of face-saving for executives who committed to long office leases, satisfying obligate extraverts, and satisfying obligate micromanagers.

      My last experience with mandatory RTO involved hot desking in a huge open plan where there was so much noise that everyone yelled into their phones and meetings, and all meetings with my team were on our webcams and headsets. Not once did we use a meeting room or any breakout space. Once in 12 months did we arrange to eat lunch together. Every time I was in I never removed my mask because in that under-ventilated huge open plan floor there were at any point at least ten people non-stop coughing. I was the only one who wore a mask. They all made “jokes” about how long it would take new starters to catch COVID (apparently typically 3-4 weeks).

      I understand and agree that *when done right* (hint: spend a lot of money on it), RTO can provide benefits to org culture, transfer of implicit/institutional knowledge, and helping workmates feel like real people. The juniors I mentor are missing out on learning opportunities I had at their age by not being fulltime in the office.

      1 in 50 do it right though, and those are terrible odds.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pomodoro Sauce*

        I think this is really insightful — our organization has very few staffers remaining from before Covid so institutional knowledge is at an all-time low — but 90% of our work is quiet focus work so no one wants to go share a cubicle.

        Reply ↓
    13. Sometimes I Wonder*

      My employer is saving 35% annually on their previous lease expense by reducing the space they lease. While most of the employees are hybrid (in office either 2 or 3 days per week), about 15% are completely remote. I go into the office as needed, which has been about twice a year since I went to fully remote.

      Reply ↓
    14. A Significant Tree*

      RTO can make sense if the people you work with are collocated with you. I’m guessing any data would support higher productivity in RTO situations where people had been pushed into WFH by Covid, with varying success, and are now getting back to how things were designed to work for that org. Call that scenario 1 – people are by and large working out of the same office, so RTO does provide the benefits it is supposed to.

      Where it doesn’t make sense is if the organization hired a bunch of people specifically to be remote workers (and thus didn’t care where they were around the country), and then decided arbitrarily to force RTO on them. Call it scenario 2, where the remote workforce option allowed the orgs to hire and retain more people than they could have in a full-time in-office setup, and the work is done at least as well, if not better, remotely. In this case, all the platitudes about face time, collaboration, and efficiency are transparently false – now people have to tack on all that goes with showing up to an office (commute, office clothes, lunches) in order to … sit around in online meetings or otherwise be isolated all day.

      I also think we’ll see much greater attrition from scenario 2 organizations (disruptive RTO) than scenario 1 orgs who really are just returning to how they operated prior to Covid. Which means all that work that would have been done by the departing employees either doesn’t get done or (more likely) gets dumped on the remaining people. That’s another cost to productivity that will show up more in scenario 2, but it’ll probably be a while before the evidence is clear. In the meantime, I suspect the only metric that will matter is “is this person in their cubicle, yes/no?”

      Reply ↓
    15. Mad Scientist*

      I have been thinking about this a lot lately. My last job was almost fully WFH (technically hybrid but unenforced and very flexible), and I loved it at the time. A few months ago I started a job that was fully in-office, and I’ve discovered some surprising silver linings…

      (1) Work stays at work! I leave my laptop here at the end of the day almost every day, so I’m a lot less likely to work late at night or over the weekend unless I plan ahead for that. And when people are sick, they actually take the full day off.

      (2) Less expectation to be chained to your desk all day. People get up, walk around, and talk to each other offline. So if your Teams status goes inactive or if you’re not at your desk, people just assume you’re collaborating in person somewhere rather than simply not working. Even though I had a reputation for being reliable and productive when I was WFH, there will always be people who will assume the worst if you’re not constantly available at their convenience (especially when you’re remote), and I was surprised about how much RTO reduced that sense of mistrust and judgement, despite lower productivity.

      (3) Most of my meetings have been in person, which I did not think I would appreciate, but I do. Also fewer meetings overall – we were explicitly told by management to cut down on meetings if possible because it should be easier to collaborate outside of meetings when everyone is here in person.

      (4) Less sedentary lifestyle overall, which I realize might be the opposite for most people (if WFH allows you to go to the gym more often or whatever). But for me, it was too easy to forget to leave my house for days in a row when I was WFH. Now that I’m back in an office, I try to take the stairs sometimes etc. and I’ve noticed a difference.

      I also realized that I appreciate the consistency of working in the same place every day. I don’t need to carry my laptop, notes, reference materials, etc. back and forth, I just bring my purse and lunch and that’s it. I realize that hybrid schedules are best for most people, but personally, I think I’d rather be fully in person or fully remote.

      Reply ↓
      2. An Australian in London*

        #4:
        I hadn’t realised how much walking was involved in my public transport commutes. Because that was not part of time when I might otherwise be getting anything done it was a sneaky way to get half an hour of walking “for free” each day. It didn’t have to be scheduled; it didn’t compete with anything else I might feel I had to do, or just want to do.

        I am definitely struggling to move as much when I can in principle be at work seconds after getting out of bed. (I’ve timed it. It helps that I have a laptop that boots in 9s. :) )

        Reply ↓
    16. Ask Me How I Know*

      One of the problems with RTO is that so many teams are distributed, and in some cases, you might be the only person on your office who works on your team, so you’re commuting to spend time on Slack/Teams/Zoom, which can be especially awkward in a cubicle farm.

      Reply ↓
    17. Girasol*

      It kinda depends whether the WFH team builds in water cooler time. If the only time you meet coworkers is to get through the agenda and hang up, then the office offers team building opportunities. It takes an intentional effort to build in informal chat time for relationship building when the team is remote, but it can work. It feels like you’re wasting time not working, but “wasting time” chatting in the hall 0r at the coffee station is what makes RTO matter. With intention, people can do that online.

      Reply ↓
    18. DJ*

      I’m wondering how it’s impacting on sick leave rates! Also presentieesm as if one wakes up not well but goes in making the condition worse vs staying at home, resting then putting in a few hours during the day when feeling a little better and the condition hasn’t been made worse by travel.

      Reply ↓
    19. Nightengale*

      I’m a doctor who provides most (not all) of my patient care in person so this is a little different than “office” work. Telehealth has it’s place but so does in-person health care. It can be helpful to work in person with other staff in our office where we can look at the same document or computer screen together. I know screenshare is a thing but it is much harder for me. I also teach medical students in a way that would be virtually impossible to do tele.

      The person I have the strongest professional relationship with at work also provides patient care in person. Aha! The benefit of working in person! However, she works at a different site and I have met her in person I think twice in 4 years. We chat both about specific shared patients and broader professional topics 2-3x a week. Being co-located might be fun but I don’t see that it would improve our professional relationship or patient care in any way.

      My branch of medicine generates a ton of paperwork. There is no way I could be as productive with charting and other paperwork if I did not work from home 2 days most weeks.

      I just don’t think there is a one true way – both the nature of the work and many individual aspects come into play.

      Reply ↓
    20. KB*

      Depends on your job and on your workspace. My workspace is crowded, noisy, and not conducive to doing my job.

      If I had a private office, my opinion might be different. But on-site my productivity is very low.

      Reply ↓
  12. Cinnamon Buns-zuh*

    Is it still possible to find legitimate data entry work? My speed and accuracy are very good and I could use a side gig, but it seems like it’s all been outsourced or folded into other positions (which is how I’ve gotten my experience). Or are there similar things that I could look into? I have a high tolerance for things that other people consider unbearably tedious and it would be nice to be able use that.

    Reply ↓
      2. GreenApplePie*

        Maybe it’s just my area but medical transcribing has gotten insanely competitive/scammy, possibly even more so than regular data entry.

        There’s simply too many desperate premeds latching onto every job title that has a whiff of healthcare.

        Reply ↓
        1. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

          My roommate has 30 years medical transcription experience and she can’t figure out a reputable company to WFH for. Do you know a company that she can apply to?

          Reply ↓
    4. Xennial student*

      I never see job postings for data entry positions. I reentered the workforce a couple of years ago so I was looking for the type of entry-level office jobs I did in my youth, but they just don’t seem to exist anymore, at least not for the general public. The job I have now is data entry/clerical but it is only available to students.

      Reply ↓
    5. DotDotDot*

      Bookkeeping is essentially data entry – although you do need to take a couple of accounting courses to do it correctly. Like Accounting 101 and 102.

      Reply ↓
  13. Just a Pile of Oranges*

    I’m FREE!

    I attended my last class and handed in my last assignment, and I fully succeeded at the questionable task of working full time and taking 6 classes. My graduation paperwork will show up in June sometime. Which is all well and good, but I’m torn on what to do next.

    Option 1 is stop here. Just try to use what I got to get better jobs.

    Option 2 is to apply for the mid-level certification exam and ideally pass it. It’s apparently difficult to even qualify to take it, the exam has a low pass rate, and while it’s a valuable certification, most employers seem to want the high-level cert so it’s questionable how useful it would be. I believe if I hold it a while I can jump to the next level though.

    Option 3 is to go onto the next level of school, with the goal of taking the high-level certification exam. This is the most difficult option. I’d need another 14 classes to get my diploma. Even if I speed run it like I did with my certificate, it’s probably three semesters minimum. And the high-level cert has an extremely low pass rate so I’d probably want to take the prep course.

    I really hate school. I just want to qualify for better jobs. But is this really the best way? I’m not sure what my path forward should be or how to decide.

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      Can you “pause” school for a little while (say, 6 months or a year) and focus on trying to get a better job? If at the end of whatever timeframe you set for yourself you have a better job and don’t want to go back to school, congratulations, you made Option 1 work for you.

      On the other hand, if you don’t find any better jobs at the end of your “pause,” then you can re-evaluate if you want to pursue Option 2 or Option 3. After job-searching for a while, you’ll probably have a better idea of how helpful the mid-level cert vs the high-level cert. will be for getting a better job, and that will help you decide if Option 2 or Option 3 is the better choice for you.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        Also, congratulations on your graduation! Well done! 6 classes and working full time is a big accomplishment.

        Reply ↓
    2. pally*

      Personally, this would be a “know thyself” kind of thing. Are you one who will never return to the classroom once you’ve gotten a job?

      I know for me, I like to take a break (like a year or so) between rounds of education programs that I’ve taken. That gets me recharged to want to go back to the work-and-school thing.

      I’d take a shot at seeing what employment is out there for the cert you just earned.

      Reply ↓
    3. learnedthehardway*

      Congratulations!!!
      I don’t think you have to make a decision quite yet. Sounds like you are employed now.
      I would do a job search first and see where you get.
      If you’re not finding the opportunities that you want, then decide on option 2 or 3. Personally, if you are reasonably happy employed and can do the work and school thing at the same time, I’d go for option 3. That seems more useful in the long run.

      Reply ↓
    4. LynnP*

      Congratulations! This is a big accomplishment. If the higher level cert is what employers value I would pursue that. However, maybe don’t overload yourself trying to get done quickly, give yourself a reasonable timeline to finish. Good luck.

      Reply ↓
  14. JBS*

    Last year I had an informational interview with a Contact who works in technology in a nonprofit in my town. He was generous with his time and connected me to his company for a non-technology role. I didn’t end up moving forward with the role, but now my wife, who actually IS in technology, is actively job seeking. There’s a technology role open at his company that my wife wants to apply to — plus I think the two of them would also hit it off because they’re in the same niche field.

    Would it be weird to reach back out to the Contact and say “hey thanks again for meeting with me, now can I connect you with my wife?” Or should my wife apply to the job on her own, and I give the Contact a heads up? Or should my wife just reach out to the Contact on her own, not connected by me? Does the fact that she’s my spouse actually make it weird, or am I just getting too in my head?? If it was a colleague or friend, I probably wouldn’t hesitate to make a connection.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I think it’s fine for you to reach out and ask if you can connect them. My husband and I will talk each other up to contacts who are more focused on stuff that fits with the other person’s qualifications all the time. Just emphasize the stuff about the posting that you think fits with her skillset and/or the niche experience, so it’s clear you think there’s more of a fit here than “I know you both and she’s interested.”

      Reply ↓
      1. Cordelia*

        But why would OP emphasising “the stuff about the posting that you think fits with her skillset and/or the niche experience” be any better than their wife doing this in her application?
        It’s not even clear that Contact is the hiring manager for this post, in which case what would they be saying to the hiring manager? “I met someone once for an informational interview, now they want me to know that their wife is applying for this job – I’ve never worked with either of them however”

        Reply ↓
    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I’m not sure I understand the purpose of connecting your wife and this Contact, other than to get around the normal hiring process, which I find…not great in this particular set of circumstances, since you can’t vouch for your wife as a professional. It’d be different if:

      a) A situation of networking generally (i.e., your wife wasn’t applying for a job and was meeting people in the same niche) -OR-

      b) If your wife was someone you had worked with AND not someone you were so personally connected to, as you could vouch for their work. Even if Contact met your wife, they also couldn’t vouch for her work.

      Personally, I would find it strange if someone in my network asked for this, but wouldn’t necessarily say anything.

      Reply ↓
    4. K*

      If your wife wants to apply, I wouldn’t ask to connect them in coordination with that, it could come across as trying to get a workaround or in for the job. Alison generally suggests that information interviews (which is what it

      Reply ↓
    5. Kathenus*

      If your wife wants to apply to an open position now, I wouldn’t ask to connect them in coordination with that, it could come across as trying to get a workaround or in for the job. Alison generally suggests that information interviews that they are fine when you’re learning more about a field/career, but not when actively applying to that organization for a position. I’d see this as being that type of situation.

      I think your wife applying and you reaching out to let Contact know that she has as an FYI, which you note as an option, would be perfect. But if it was me I wouldn’t ask to connect them to your wife now.

      Reply ↓
    6. Moths*

      I think it’s fine to reach out, but I would personally do the second option you suggested. Let her apply and then I’d shoot Contact an email with her resume attached and just say something along the lines of, “Hey, I loved learning about your company last year. My wife recently saw a posting for XX and since she has lots of experience in that space, she sent in an application. I wanted to forward you her email as well just because I know you have similar backgrounds. No need to follow up on this, I just wanted to send it your way.” It may not have any impact, Contact may just delete it, but I doubt they’re going to be bothered by it. Others may not feel comfortable reaching out, but that’s probably what I’d do.

      Reply ↓
  15. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

    What are your prospects with Option 1? Will you be able to get a job you like and enjoy, and that pays you enough for now while you consider Options 2 and 3?

    Reply ↓
    2. Just a Pile of Oranges*

      Maybe. I’m guessing not though, since the best I could do on that route was the job I’m in, and I dislike it very much. The competition is fierce and most people hold more certifications than I do.

      Reply ↓
  16. Orange Crushed*

    I’m applying to a job that is requesting a letter of recommendation. I’ve reached out to a few managers, but haven’t heard back from them yet. I have some old letters of recommendation, but they’re from years ago. How many years back can you go with letters of recommendation? When should I follow up with the managers that I’ve asked for a recommendation letter?

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      I think you do want those to be relatively fresh, yeah. Did you note that it was a time-sensitive request when you reached out to your contacts?

      Reply ↓
    2. WhiskeyLeaks is not my friend*

      I would write the letter for them and ask them to put their voice in it. That’ll make it easier and more likely for them to respond.

      I would have sent this email:

      Hello Manager,

      I’m applying for this ROLE at this ORG. It fits me perfectly because ZYY.

      The ORG requests a LOR. I took the liberty of writing the letter based on our work together highlighting how that experience aligns with this role. I know you want to refine the letter and make it your own.

      I would appreciate your response by DATE so I can return it to the ORG by DATE. I will follow-up in WEEK if you have questions or comments.

      Thank you for supporting my job search and potential new opportunity.

      LETTER WRITER

      Reply ↓
      1. Nesprin*

        Don’t write the letter- but make it as easy for them as possible. Ask if they’d be willing to write a letter (and specify due date!), and attach a brief summary of accomplishments while working with letter writer + list of anything you’d want them to highlight + a recent resume.

        Reply ↓
        1. WhiskeyLeaks is not my friend*

          Of course, you write it or at least draft it. Who has time, or interest, to write from scratch an LoR for anyone, no matter how well they know one another? I would be embarrassed to come to the table asking someone to write a full letter for me.

          They’re doing you a favor – draft a letter, and you’re likely to get a return.

          Besides, a job asking for a LoR is a pain is suspect and makes me wonder what they think they’ll glean from it particularly if you’re returning it. There’s no guarantee they’ll receive an authentic letter anyway. It’s an outmoded hiring practice.

          Reply ↓
          1. linger*

            You’re probably right that it will help the recommender if the recommendation-letter-seeker prepares an initial draft. But it may matter how the seeker goes about it, and what kind of relationship they have with the recommender.
            At a former org, one mentor would usually respond to students seeking recommendation letters by directly asking them to draft their own for him to edit and sign. But even so, I think he would have been unhappy, seeing it as somehow presumptuous, if students had simply provided their own draft *before he asked for it*. (It was generally more efficient for the student to do most of the writing if they needed the letter in his second language; but he also needed to preserve at least the appearance of being able to write reasonably fluently in it himself, which made it quite a tricky dance.)
            By contrast, I needed to use a more negotiated approach with my students: I’d write up an outline while asking the student what details they thought should be included, and then adding those. (Again, this was mostly about efficiency. In my case, students wanted a letter in my first language, and were having to use their second language to communicate with me, so this approach minimised the amount of language correction needed to get the required content into the letter.)

            Reply ↓
  17. WhiskeyLeaks is not my friend*

    YEAHHHH AmeriCorps VISTA positions were posted today.

    ERGHHHH We only have a month to post, send people to apply, interview, and hopefully find people for our 3 positions.

    But if we’re successful we have three wonderful people to work with for the year.

    Reply ↓
  18. Daisy Adair*

    Anyone ever transitioned out of PR? I’ve been working in PR for about 15 years — mostly for non-profit, but also some government, community affairs kind of stuff. I’m tired of always being on-call and handling public crises inflicted by people other than myself. I feel like I’ve landed in a job where I’m always the fixer and it’s never been a role I’ve been comfortable with. (Conflict averse, introvert who has developed extroverted coping mechanisms that routinely leave me feeling drained at the end of each project). I’m an older professional and willing to take a slight pay cut for something… calmer. But unsure where to go from here.

    Reply ↓
    1. The Accidental Tourist*

      Hmm maybe there’s a media role in marketing or comms that would apply? I think larger national nonprofits sometimes have people who are mostly placing op eds and stories which would have fewer crises?

      Reply ↓
    2. Ama*

      Maybe a marketing firm that specializes in small businesses? I work in the craft industry and while it’s not immune from PR crises on occasion, for the most part the communications work is more about advising small (sometimes one person!) businesses on how to optimize their marketing and social media. There’s a few communicationand marketing firms around geared specifically at craft small businesses but I would imagine any industry that has a lot of small, independent businesses has firms like this.

      Reply ↓
    3. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Have you been in the same general topical area? You could look at turning the comms skills into an asset for a role like program manager in that sector. You’re good at dealing with things that come up unexpectedly and explaining them to people in plain talk. Not that a program manager has to do that all the time but it’s definitely a plus. With the government affairs and community affairs experience that’s a plus for working for a government agency.

      Reply ↓
  19. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

    I wish I remembered this earlier this week during the hills to die on thread, but we only just started a new project with this client yesterday and I had blissfully forgotten about it.

    Our projects use codes to organize various bits of data, usually single or double digit alphanumeric. The codes are dictated by the clients and each client has their own preferred set of codes. The client I’m working with now has the following codes for any data that doesn’t fit the standard categories:

    A – Blank
    B – Conditional
    C – Anomalous

    Every new hire has the same look on their face when we explain it to them. We have to input these codes rapidly all day long during certain phases of the projects. It drives us bananacrackers and we’ve been begging the client for years to change it to something more intuitive. If the client was originally coming from a different language, we’d understand, but this is a US-based client that uses English. They don’t see what the big deal is.

    Reply ↓
    1. is the math right ?*

      LOL. that’s simultaneously horrible and hysterical!
      I feel like someone suggested those acronyms as a joke that no one else got. and now you are all stuck with it.

      Reply ↓
    4. MsSolo (UK)*

      Can you reframe what the letters mean so it’s slightly less irritating?
      A – Empty
      B – Potentially
      C – Weird
      for example

      Reply ↓
    5. Quitting Timely*

      Could you “change” it internally to something like
      A – Absent
      B – Because (of)
      C – Contrary (to)
      Or something like that? This would drive me bonkers!

      Reply ↓
      1. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

        We tried, but we couldn’t keep consistency amongst everyone. Then it bled over into client meetings and they got really unhappy that we weren’t using the “right terminology.” So now everyone keeps a post-it on their screen as a reminder and there’s a Slack channel devoted entirely to coming up with the most ridiculous alternatives we can think of.

        My favorite suggestion today is the haiku courtesy of my co-director:

        A – An empty expanse
        B – But if it is just too much
        C – Can we run screaming?

        Reply ↓
      2. Rage*

        Now I’m over here singing “A – it’s blank. The blank is blank. B – this one really depends. C – hides it identity. D – please make it make some sense!”

        Reply ↓
        1. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

          That’s beautiful and I’m not even mad that the song is stuck in my head now XD

          Reply ↓
      1. a perfectly normal-sized space bird*

        The client is a governmental entity who probably have people who have been there forever and are still using some legacy systems. I wouldn’t be surprised if the codes were a result of someone back when organizing something that made sense at the time but not now.

        Reply ↓
    7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      That sounds miserable.

      Could you code it in an intuitive way, then Find+Replace to change it to the client’s preference?

      Reply ↓
    8. NoIWontFixYourComputer*

      That sounds like a “Whose Line” parody of “Who Wants to be a Millionaire”.

      “Is the answer:
      A. B?
      B. C?
      C. F?
      D. All of the above”

      Reply ↓
    9. Sack of Benevolent Trash Marsupials*

      Wow. That is just…the worst. I hate it so much. I love that you all are writing haiku about it rather than blowing anything up tho :-)

      Reply ↓
    10. An Australian in London*

      That almost rises to the level of the Stroop test. (Say the ink colour used to print a name of a colour that is a different colour, i.e. “blue” printed in red ink, the goal is to say “red”.)

      Reply ↓
    13. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      This is the like the test of response time in which you have to say the word for the color but it’s written in text that’s a different color.

      Reply ↓
  20. Anonymask*

    More of a vent than an ask for advice, but also a gut check on what’s happening this week.

    I’ve been sick since Tuesday morning. I left work early to finish the day WFH (and ended up working past 7pm).

    I took a sick day on Wednesday, but had to call in for a 1.5hr mandatory training, so I really only should have used 6 hours of my sick time (grandboss, who was aware of this, still assigned me work that was urgently due so I ended up working 4 hours that day; I know, never do that, but I did only put in for 4 hours sick after that).

    Yesterday (Thursday), I got the okay from my boss to WFH because I am still quite sick and it’s month end close with tasks that have to be completed. Grandboss called me to verify I was actually sick (what???) and then was surprised that I “actually sounded sick” (what???). I’m coughing so hard I swear I’ll have abs at the end of this, and I have a mild fever (I run from 96.5-97.5F, my temp is consistently reading at 99F).

    Because of that call (and another mandatory training), I am in the office today masked up and warning people away from me where I can.

    This is bananas, right? I’m barely upright and on enough cold medicine to dose a pony. I am probably still actively contagious but can’t afford to be without a job because grandboss doesn’t trust work will get done if butts are not in seats.

    (I am trying to leave, just not having any luck. I have to stay until I have something else lined up so I get to suffer, I suppose.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Juicebox Hero*

      The only possible generous interpretation is that there have been people abusing the sick leave policy in the past so grandboss is immediately suspicious of anyone who calls in sick. That said, that’s bananas, your grandboss is a complete dimbledoink, and distrusting your employees is no way to run a business.

      I hope you can at least rest up over the weekend and feel better soon.

      Reply ↓
      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        +1 for dimbledoink. Hoping I will find an opportunity to use this term in the near future. I 100% agree that the boss is a dimbledoink and I hope you feel better soon, get some rest, and a new job asap.

        Reply ↓
    2. MsM*

      FFS. Go home, tell boss and HR you are absolutely, positively not available (with doctor’s note to confirm, if necessary), and let them handle grandboss like they’re supposed to.

      Reply ↓
    3. Thin Mints didn't make me thin*

      Yes, this is bananas. Your managers should have a backup plan for handling month-end if you are out (for whatever reason).

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonymask*

        I keep saying! They don’t want to hire more people because then they’ll “miss budget” but it’s untenable to expect people to work really extended hours to complete the work.

        (I’m not talking about occasional long days, I’m talking consistent 7am-10pm days by some of the other team members because they’re short-staffed)

        (I should mention this is not a small company, it’s multi-billion and has thousands of employees across multiple states)

        Reply ↓
    4. WellRed*

      Yes it’s nuts. Did your boss actually say you yo do the training this week? Or did you just feel like you had to do that?

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonymask*

        It’s company wide mandatory training, have to attend. And this one today also has IT pushing updates to our machines so we need to be on the company wifi* to do it (either at HQ or a satellite office)

        *I don’t understand why other than something about a security risk, but as I am not an expert in this, I cannot speak to it

        Reply ↓
    5. AnonymousOctopus*

      It seems counterintuitive but I’ve found that trying to be helpful by doing some work while on a sick day just makes people think you aren’t actually that sick. When I stopped trying to power through or be available for “important” stuff and just took a full sick day, people stopped questioning how sick I was.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonymask*

        That’s a good reminder; I do need to strengthen my boundaries. It’s tough with the company pushing us to work later and later, with fewer and fewer people, and insinuating that the jobs aren’t secure if you aren’t a “team player.”

        Reply ↓
        1. AnonymousOctopus*

          I hear you, it’s sounds like you’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. I was in a similar situation, and what helped me not freak out when I had to say no to those types of things was:

          1) if they are trying to do more with less people, that means they need you more than before. This gives you more leverage, unless your boss/company is stupid and willing to tank the department by firing the few people they have left. If that’s the case, then the ship is already sinking and you’ll be out of a job sooner or later.
          2) if they do fire you for having boundaries, you’re likely to get unemployment and the ability to full-time job search. Obviously not ideal and could be devastating depending on your financial picture, but if you’re relatively okay like I was it can bring a sense of liberation to say to yourself “they’d be doing me a favor if they fired me”.

          I hope you feel better and move on to greener pastures soon!

          Reply ↓
      2. WellRed*

        I agree with this 200%. If you say you can’t function and then show up anyway? Don’t shoot yourself in the foot.

        Reply ↓
    6. Momma Bear*

      It is bananas. I used to work where the Director of HR (of all people) would come in terribly sick and coughing. It was inevitable that he would spread his plague down the hall the following week. I hated it.

      What are your company’s sick leave policies? I would also talk to my boss about cross training someone.

      In the meantime, leave the office as soon as you can today. Maybe even go to their office and say, “I’ve done all I can today. I need to go” so they can see how horrible you feel.

      Reply ↓
    7. Anon for This*

      Yesterday was opening day of the baseball season – a popular day for people to take off. Boss might have been checking up to be sure you weren’t at the game.

      Reply ↓
    8. I didn't say banana*

      This is basic behaviourism – they are going to keep expecting you to work while sick because you keep working while sick

      Reply ↓
    9. KB*

      First: it’s nuts that the employer-supplied equipment is bad.
      Second: don’t you have desk drawers that lock? If not, that is also nuts.
      Finally: they can try to fire you for not lending your personal property to Jane, but would losing you be more costly to them than losing or upsetting Jane? Sounds like firing Jane is an option if firing you is an option.

      Reply ↓
  21. Fed up with borrowers*

    My office is having an issue with a chronic borrower, Jane. People in the office don’t mind lending their stuff to each other, but the problem is Jane only asks to borrow people’s things about half the time, and just takes things off peoples desks the rest of the time. She also doesn’t return people’s stuff. You have to chase her down and ask multiple times to get your items returned and occasionally you get your stuff returned in much worse condition than it was before. She then jokes that she forgot she had borrowed the item.

    This came to a head a couple weeks ago when she borrowed a pair of really nice noise canceling headphones from the desk of a coworker who was out sick. When she finally gave our coworker the headphones back, they were broken. Jane claimed they were already broken, but no one buys it, and everyone is sick of her. So for the past week everyone has been taking anything they bring into work to home with them, headphones, their personal pens and notebooks, even personal keyboards.

    This led to her complaining to our boss, small company, no HR or managers, that we were bullying her by not leaving our personal things at work, presumably so she can borrow them at will. Our boss, who is usually great, but I think doesn’t want to deal with this, sent out an email telling us that we either have to leave all personal equipment at the office or not bring in anything and only use company provided equipment.

    Everyone is obviously upset, we bring in so much of our own stuff because the company provided stuff is pretty basic and not always nice to use. But no one wants to have their stuff broken by Jane. A couple people are talking about putting in notice because of this. Myself and another person have talked about pushing back as a group, and pointing out Jane’s bad behavior. No one has really ever complained about Jane to the boss, so I think there is a possibility that he is reacting to the first person to lodge a complaint without having all the facts. What does the commentariat say?

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Yeah, y’all need to go to the boss and HR and get an official complaint on record. The solution may still end up being that no one should bring any personal stuff in unless they’re okay with it potentially getting fiddled with or damaged, but I don’t know why Jane’s the first person who even thought to escalate this. (Unless past experience has taught the ones who are thinking about leaving that leadership is useless, but this is still giving big “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas” vibes.)

      Reply ↓
      1. Abogado Avocado*

        The boss can’t compel you to leave personally paid for stuff at the office for Jane to use or break. Jane needs to be redirected to the office administrator to have them buy what she needs.

        And if I were in this situation, I’d “decorate” my personal stuff so that it’s clear when Jane has it that it’s not hers. E.g., I’d use a glue gun to put glitter, pipe cleaners or spikes on the top band of my headset, I’d decorate my stapler to look like a dinosaur, and write “Urine Test Recorder” on all my pens and pencils in indelible ink, etc. And when Jane breaks anything, I’d put it in writing to whoever is in charge of ordering equipment that they need to buy me a new one because Jane has broken it.

        And if THAT doesn’t work, I’d start “borrowing” stuff from Jane. More than one can play this game.

        Reply ↓
        1. Kelsi*

          No, but they can ban personal stuff entirely, or fire you for not complying with the “don’t bring it unless you’re going to leave it” policy (because it has the out of ‘just don’t bring it’).

          And I doubt Jane brings anything personal in to be borrowed. Why would she? She just uses other people’s.

          Reply ↓
      1. Fed up with borrowers*

        People have told her no, they won’t lend her stuff anymore. But she just takes what she wants off the desks of people who aren’t in the office.

        Reply ↓
    3. Shieldmaiden792*

      It’s been a while since I’ve seen such an obvious Broken Stair situation. The decree that people must leave their personal items in the office is laughably absurd.
      Don’t put in notice (in this economy??). Go to the boss as a group with a list of items Jane has stolen or ruined, and ask that the boss deal with Jane directly about not taking items that don’t belong to her.
      I’m sorry you have to work in a kindergarten.

      Reply ↓
    4. Juicebox Hero*

      I’d say it’s worth going to the boss as a group, since you’ve tried talking to Jane with no luck and when you took reasonable steps to protect your property she started her wounded fawn routine.

      Everyone should document everything Jane has taken and broken or never given back which will hopefully impress on your boss that this isn’t a one-off or just inexpensive objects she’s been *stealing*.

      Reply ↓
    5. WellRed*

      Your boss is trying to dictate what you do with your personal stuff: think about that. Also, I’d be writer out by someone borrowing my personal items, but especially something like headphones. Push back as a group.

      Reply ↓
      1. Christmas Carol*

        I think the only thing that would squick me out more than someone using my headphones would be someone “borrowing” my underwear.

        Reply ↓
      2. Shirley Keeldar*

        I think I’d just….quietly take my nice stuff home and act entirely bewildered if told to stop. But these are my own headphones; I need them this evening. But this is my own notebook; I’m going to write in it this weekend. Or leave them at work but get a small box that locks for stuff I couldn’t bear to lose, I suppose…but the idea of someone telling me I can’t take my own personal property home with me is bananas, and I think I’d act as if the boss couldn’t possibly have meant to say that.

        Reply ↓
    6. WorkerDrone*

      I think that an email response laying out the issue clearly to Boss is the right way to go.

      Right now, Boss doesn’t want to deal with it and Jane is a squeaky wheel. If you don’t start squeaking yourself, then the easiest way for Boss to move forward is to acquiesce to Jane.

      Make that the hardest way for Boss to move forward. Obviously stay within professional boundaries, and of course you know your workplace and what you can get away with, but don’t let Jane be the loudest squeaker.

      Reply ↓
    7. Yankees fans are awesome!*

      “This led to her complaining to our boss, small company, no HR or managers, that we were bullying her by not leaving our personal things at work…”
      ——

      I will need every flashlight in the world to light my way through this BS.

      I mean…

      Reply ↓
    8. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      “This led to her complaining to our boss, small company, no HR or managers, that we were bullying her by not leaving our personal things at work, presumably so she can borrow them at will.”

      Two, or rather everyone else, can play this game if this is what the boss responds to. Each person who has been impacted can start lodging complaints that Jane is bullying them by taking and using their personal things even though they told her not to.

      Reply ↓
      1. A Significant Tree*

        Yes – this is the way. Every single person needs to make the complaint that Jane is “bullying” them by stealing their stuff and not returning it until cornered and stuff’s usually broken. Your boss had a real lapse here, if they’re otherwise reasonable and just got ambushed by Jane this time, a flood of “Jane is the problem” messages should help.

        I admit I did laugh at “boss told us we had to leave our personal stuff at work” because yeah, no, that’s not how that works.

        Reply ↓
    9. Fluff*

      Ouch – this is so weird.

      On a malicious compliance route, you could bring a few lock boxes and everyone locks up their stuff before leaving. Following the instructions to the letter.

      When Jane complains, play dumb, and suggest she get a locked box for her things.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ginger Cat Lady*

        Yes, and that’s how it should be reported to the boss. Jane stole my charging cable and won’t return it. Jane stole my headphones and broke them.
        Not borrowed. Stole.

        Reply ↓
    11. Zona the Great*

      I just wouldn’t follow his edict. It’s a stupid thing for him to even consider let alone try to enforce. Homegirl really complained that she’s not able to steal from her coworkers. My gawd.

      Reply ↓
      1. SallyAnn*

        How are they going to know if you take your personal stuff home at night? Are they inspecting your bags at the exit?

        Reply ↓
    12. JSPA*

      As well as talking to the boss and HR…Bring in a way to lock your desk drawer. That way all your stuff “stays at work.” And don’t gossip about Jane, cast blame at Jane, or treat it as being in any way Jane-related. And maybe dial down the borrowing more generally, so she isn’t being singled out.

      Reply ↓
    14. Who_Is_Dat_Is*

      I agree with the others that you need to push back on the boss as a group.

      If this doesn’t work, I suggest locking your things in a drawer at the end of the day.

      Reply ↓
    15. Head Sheep Counter*

      You work in a weird environment. Basically, stealing is encouraged… if you are Jane. And crappy office supplies are you only option. Nonsense. Have the boss figure out how to provide nicer supplies for all and then get label makers to label everything… chair, pencil, keyboard, pants, shoes, door … label it all. Plus points if you label it… “Not Jane’s”

      Reply ↓
    16. Kay*

      I would start reporting anything “missing” as stolen, immediately, before you go check Jane’s desk. Every. Single. Time. I would do it all wide eyed doe innocent and be so very very elevated voice distraught and dramatic about it – like, scary criminals obviously invaded the building and we need to call the police right now! because we could all be in danger level of nonsense.

      Okay, maybe that is a bit over the top, but your boss’s response was so bizarrely over the top I felt like I had to keep up I guess.

      But seriously, you cannot accept this, neither from your boss nor from Jane.

      Reply ↓
  22. The Accidental Tourist*

    I struggle so much with business expenses while traveling and what is legitimate or not. I tend to be extremely conservative about it since I work for a nonprofit. But work travel does end up costing me my own money as a result. I think this is not uncommon – “dang, I left my jacket in a cab and have to buy a new one, I can’t expense that parking ticket I got because I was unfamiliar with get system, work will only book me this less convenient thing so I’m going to pay for the easy one myself.” How much more salary would you add for a job that requires a lot of travel?

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      I think the question you should be asking is, What’s appropriate to expense and, how can I manage travel better so I’m not incurring additional unreimbursable expenses. I’ve been there, had all my conference tops ready to pack and forget them, requiring a fast and expensive cab dash to the local Macy’s. I would absolutely have expensed that parking ticket, FYI.

      Reply ↓
    2. Momma Bear*

      Have you calculated these expenses to see what the average personal cost to you is? That would be a starting point. Maybe the extra $500/year (for example) is worth it, and maybe it’s not. Remember to include taxes when considering salary. You might not end up much ahead if you’re in a different tax bracket.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pay no attention...*

      This is going to be so org dependent because I would expense anything that is allowed including fines or fees incurred because of parking. The jacket is maybe a personal expense if I could ultimately get my original coat back from the cab company but I chose to buy a new one; but if I couldn’t get it back I would at least try to be reimbursed. Same would apply for lost luggage or any extra fees for a courier to get a misdirected bag to the hotel or home, etc. An upgrade might be reimbursed if it’s more than jsut a preference — e.g. you can’t stay at the cheap hotel because they don’t have an elevator and you have mobility issues, or the org thinks it’s a walkable distance from hotel to meeting but you need a cab; the org reserved a compact car but when you went to pick it up, the rental car company didn’t have the right car available and you were forced to upgrade to a sedan in order to get to the conference, etc.

      Reply ↓
    4. Cordelia*

      I’d be pretty unhappy if the money I donated to a non-profit was used by a member of staff to buy a new jacket because they left theirs in a cab – that’s not a work expense at all.

      Reply ↓
      1. OP*

        ha yes although by that standard anything but the most punishingly stringent travel standards wouldn’t hold up. My nonprofit does have non-donor funds for expenses no individual would be thrilled to cover

        Reply ↓
    5. Coffeemate is searching the globe*

      Agree it can sometimes be difficult to know what is an isn’t an expense you can submit, but I don’t think buying a jacket that you left in a cab qualifies

      Reply ↓
      1. OP*

        Right, Sorry if my question was unclear, I know i can’t expense any of these travel mishaps, but since I might end up needing to buy a new jacket just for this trip, my point is that jobs with lots of travel end up costing me more and I would want a higher salary to undertake one. Maybe it sounds like most people don’t deal with this.

        Reply ↓
    6. An Australian in London*

      I had one memorable business trip where somehow half of what I meant to pack didn’t get packed, and the power went out during the night so the alarm I set on the hotel clock radio was wiped. (I do many things differently now; this was 20+ years ago.)

      Paying for a taxi to the client for a trip I’d planned to catch a bus for? I expensed that.
      Buying a couple more business shirts and ties? Paid for that out of pocket.
      Buying some expensive to-go breakfast food from the hotel cafe to eat in the taxi (with taxi driver’s permission), instead of eating near the client as I’d planned? I expensed that.

      I was relatively junior at the time. That seemed an intuitive and obvious way to do things. I viewed it as I was doing my employer a favour going to some time and trouble to save them money, but it wasn’t required. Admittedly I would feel that more strongly in a NFP.

      Reply ↓
      1. Not that other person you didn't like*

        I once somehow forgot to pack any socks (!) so I ended up buying what became my “London socks” and I realized that socks are the ultimate practical souvenirs. They are small, inexpensive, and can be quite creative and location specific. I have Tokyo socks, Frankfurt socks, Ottawa socks, etc.

        Reply ↓
    7. Hyaline*

      Hmm….as to your last question…I feel like the “more salary for a job requiring travel” would have more to do, for me, with the longer hours/feeling like you’re on 24/7 and the lifestyle stressors of travel than of the bits and bobs here and there that can add up traveling. Like I’m not thinking about buying a second bottle of Advil or needing to have travel-size hair products when I’m thinking salary–I’d be thinking “how much is not being home X days a month worth to me? How much more am I paying in childcare, how much more work is my spouse taking on at home with me gone, and how much extra aggravation am I shouldering?”

      Reply ↓
    8. European*

      I travel a lot in business (mostly in Europe). I expense all business-related costs. Parking during a business meeting, hotel stay, train tickets to the meeting venue, etc. Clothes if I forgot to pack – no. Laundry cost of my clothes when I was sick during a bumpy airplane landing when arriving to the hotel – yes. The regulation of my home country is that I get daily allowance and that is why I do not expense my meals. (But if it a business lunch meeting with a customer, then I can expense both the customer’s and my meal). If the luggage doesn’t arrive and I need to purchase clothes and cosmetics, I need to pay it out of pocket and get reimbursement from the business travel insurance.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tio*

        Yeah, same here. I expense any need, and needs include food and transportation. I definitely would not expense a lost jacket – you didn’t lose your jacket because you were traveling, you lost your jacket because you made an error. That one’s on you. It would be different if, say, a client spilled red wine or spaghetti sauce on your clothes, then that’s a business expense.

        The parking ticket can be a bit of a grey area – some companies would say that’s on you for not reading the signs or whatever more closely, some would say that’s just a cost of doing business.

        Reply ↓
        1. OP*

          sorry my question was unclear, I was never intending to expense the jacket, just noting that all the costs I end up eating can add up.

          Reply ↓
    9. Rara Avis*

      Our contract requires a week-long trip chaperoning students. We get a small stipend to cover incidental expenses such as extra childcare, petcare, equipment for the trip, etc. (All travel /food/rooming is already covered.)

      Reply ↓
  23. Meep*

    I need encouragement here.

    I have been rather… bored and unfulfilled at my job for the past year and a half. I work for a start-up so while I do not expect regular raises, it has been four years without even a COLA. However, I decided to stick around as I am a female engineer and I was pregnant. Finding another job in a frankly very sexist field (even when women make up 20% of our discipline – average is 15%) didn’t really appeal to me.

    Well, she is now here and as cute as a button!

    I did a quick maternity leave before coming back full-time two months after she was born. It was unpaid, ofc, as I am literally the only married woman (and one of two women) in my company. I came back full time on February 17th, while working part time since January 21st. I will get to that in a moment.

    Three weeks ago on Thursday at 4pm, we were informed that we would not be getting paid and were being furloughed. Apparently the company had no money and the president hadn’t been paid in 3 pay periods to ensure we would be paid. Kind in theory, I suppose, but honestly? It would’ve been better if he had been somewhat selfish here instead of burying the financial issues of the company. (It wasn’t that we weren’t having income come in, it was that the Book of Face – our biggest client – wasn’t paying us in a timely manner.)

    Well, we at AAM know that even in the states, they are required to pay salaried workers on time, so I decided to give it a week and they did ultimately figure it out (and he got in trouble with the board for not paying himself). 

    We have since been paid in full for those three weeks owed (while sorta, apparently I was never switched back to salaried so they still owe me some money will get into that in a second) and there is funding for Q2.

    This means, I basically have three months to find another job. By then, we will probably have more funding. But frankly I am done.

    My last two performance evaluations were spent with him raving about how great a past employee was. There were no notes or feedback directly for me. Even when asked.

    He tries to “mentor” me, but it is usually just scolding me for things he thinks I am going to do wrong, so when I do it right (often having already done the thing), he takes credit for making me do it the right way. I feel like my achievements can never actually be my own because he doesn’t “see” me. 

    I think I have been praised a grand total of twice in the past three years he has been here (100% related to that update from earlier).

    And then the fact I have to fight to get paid properly for my work when it is literally just a button to click is just icing on the cake. (Not to mention makes me nervous on his funding calculations…)

    He is overall a nice guy (minus being a Musk fanboy) and means well. He really does try to do the right thing – even if he stumbles. But he isn’t utilizing me properly and it really feels like there is no growth potential for me OR this company. (I found out in the middle of this that he hasn’t been pursuing potential customers/sales, but mostly focusing on getting us to be sold – which come on, if we aren’t stable, who is going to want to buy us???)

    I have eight years of experience of both engineering and managing the employees and instead I am relegated to grunt work and being treated like an intern.

    So please tell me I got this and while my resume needs some work, I can kick the proverbial interview butt. 

    Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Congratulations on your daughter!

      Eight years of engineering and management experience? You are definitely ready to dust off the resume and start kicking proverbial interview butt.

      The “need help finding a job? start here” post from May 8, 2024 has a lot of helpful links all in one place. I will link to that post in a follow-up comment.

      Good luck with the job search!

      Reply ↓
    3. Laggy Lu*

      Get out of there. You can do it. My husband is a VP at an engineering firm and they have the hardest time attracting a retaining women (not for lack of trying, but for lack of experience. They are improving). Your skills are in demand, so go for it.

      Reply ↓
    4. Drop those zeros and get with a hero!*

      You got this! You are worth so much more an deserve to work someplace that recognizes all you bring to the table. I hope you get to choose a great new job soon!

      Reply ↓
    5. Wanderer*

      You absolutely got it. You obviously know what you are capable of and what your market worth is.
      If you present yourself even half as good in an interview as you did here, you have nothing to worry about.
      Your daughter is lucky to have you as a role model.

      Reply ↓
    6. ElastiGirl*

      Honestly, if he’s a Musk fanboy, he’s probably only cosplaying as a nice guy. He certainly has been a nice guy where his treatment of you is concerned!

      You deserve better. And now you will be able to get something better! Hooray for you! You got this.

      Reply ↓
    7. Office Gumby*

      You totally got this, girl! You’re legendary. You bring extra skills to the table that others don’t. Your skills will be welcome elsewhere and they’ll be happy to have you.

      Reply ↓
  24. HomebodyHouseplant*

    im just here for a petty vent- I have a work trip i have to fly for next month. I’ll be gone for 5 days. I am a vegetarian- very open about this, marked it on my accommodations forms etc. my team is having dinner out one night and picked a restaurant that I can’t actually eat at. like, they have sad salad. but nothing substantial. I’m used to that at local events and I just eat a big breakfast and pack a protein bar but considering I won’t have control of my environment or transportation at all for 5 days I’m mildly annoyed. I also know I’ll get comments about what I’m eating or not eating and it just feels bad. not worth making a stink over because I don’t want to be that person but it’s just unfortunate people don’t think about it critically. yes I can eat a salad but would you function your best if you meal after a long day of work meetings was leaves?

    Reply ↓
    1. Hlao-roo*

      I have a different food restriction and I definitely feel you on the “I also know I’ll get comments about what I’m eating or not eating and it just feels bad.”

      Because the work trip is still a month away, can you contact whoever picked the restaurant and say, “I can’t eat anything at [restaurant] besides sad salad.* Is it possible to book the team dinner at a different restaurant with more vegetarian options?”

      You can also do a little research and suggest a few other restaurants that do have good vegetarian options. I have found that most people responsible for booking food in the work world respond well to “I can’t have [food]/eat at [restaurant] but I can eat [these things]/at [these restaurants].”

      *Or maybe “There are no vegetarian entrees at [restaurant]” or “I can’t eat any of the entrees at [restaurant] because I’m a vegetarian.” Whatever wording you think will go over best.

      Reply ↓
      1. CTT*

        Seconding this! They probably just looked at the menu and saw a salad and didn’t think further on how filling it would. Raising it and having another option ready to go is a good course of action.

        Reply ↓
      2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

        On top of this if they are adamant that this is the only place, could you see about getting a meal elsewhere? Like would you be able to get something (paid by the company) before hand and then just attend and eat sad salad or have a drink or whatever?

        Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      Have you pointed out there’s nothing for you to eat at that restaurant? And can you call the restaurant ahead of time and see what your options are? Yes it’s unfortunate people don’t think about these things but it’s a big deal to you because it’s your need. No one else is going to do that for you or remember it every time.

      Reply ↓
      2. Annika Hansen*

        As a long time vegetarian, I agree that you should call the restaurant. I have not had a problem being accommodated. And it’s not petty to want food that is filling. I know a lot of people think vegetarian = salad.

        Reply ↓
      3. Spacewoman Spiff*

        Yeah, I would try pointing this out to someone if there’s anyone you can direct that to. Remembering (not fondly…) a dinner a former team of mine had at a steakhouse, when there were several vegetarians on the team. I just remember two of us sitting side by side, picking at the weird bowl of pasta they cobbled together for us off-menu. Later, the organizer got reamed out by someone in management for not having thought about this, and I have wondered if I could have gotten that to happen BEFORE the dinner. Anyway, I don’t know if there’s a non-awkward way to suggest this, but a dinner where you’re stuck with a sad, protein-free salad is going to be really unpleasant for you, but it’s also going to be uncomfortable for the colleagues watching you eat that sad attempt at a vegetarian meal.

        Reply ↓
    3. Charlotte Lucas*

      I second all these suggestions and also get why you’re irritated. Even one or two vegetarian options would be better. (And if there’s no other veg options on the menu, I don’t hold out a lot of hope that the salad will be in any way good, tasty, or filling.)

      Reply ↓
    4. Fluffy Fish*

      i think you can address it without making it into big thing.

      “hey guys Chez Moo wont work for my dietary restrictions so we will need to decide on a different restaurant. House of Options sounds good as does Variety Palace.”

      Reply ↓
    5. JSPA*

      People have mentioned restaurants being open to people ordering in from outside restaurants, if it means they get group business they would not otherwise get. Might be most productive to act as if “of course” someone has checked into this, and ask your team who spoke to them about it…or call the restaurant and ask what the protocol is for ordering in from outside, and if there are sister / partner restaurants they prefer to work with.

      Reply ↓
    6. Cordelia*

      I doubt anyone’s even realised that there is only a “sad salad” for you, it’s unlikely to be a deliberate slight. Your options aren’t limited to “make a stink” or “eat leaves while seething resentfully”.
      Just say “oh, I’ve checked that restaurant and there’s really nothing I can eat. I’ve found a couple of alternatives, how about A or B?” Point it out politely with a tone of “I”m sure you didn’t notice this oversight, but now I’ve brought it to your attention of course you will want to sort it out”.
      I know it’s annoying (longterm vegan here) but it’s pretty easy to sort out.

      Reply ↓
    7. Southern Girl*

      Agree, try to suggest a different place. Vegan here. One popular steakhouse chain in our city even puts bacon bits in their Brussells sprouts. Ugh.

      Reply ↓
    8. Girasol*

      Talking the group into a better place would be best, but if you can’t, try calling the restaurant ahead and asking if they can accommodate.

      Reply ↓
  25. Jezebel*

    That is insane, and you should all go to the boss immediately and fill him in on the history with Jane. You should all have reported this long ago! Nobody should ever be using your personal items without your permission, and the coworker whose headphones were broken should have brought the issue straight to the boss at that time. Before quitting over Jane, make the boss see how serious the issue is and alert him that if he doesn’t deal with it he will be losing staff.

    Reply ↓
  26. JustaTech*

    Low stakes question from a shy person: I’m attending an industry conference in a few months and the last part of the conference is a gala.
    The gala costs extra (~$160) that I’m sure my company won’t cover, but I’m wondering if it’s worth buying the ticket myself.
    Part of me says “when else am I going to get to attend a gala?”
    Other parts of me say “You don’t know anyone and it will be awkward.” “You’re always exhausted and loopy at the end of a conference.” “You know that there is better food for less.”

    So my question is: are these things fun? Or are they only enjoyable if you already know a bunch of people?

    Reply ↓
    1. Pentapus*

      I’m relatively shy, and don’t find them fun. unless you’re seated by people you know, I don’t enjoy them. I wouldn’t pay $160 of my own money to go.

      Reply ↓
    3. CTT*

      I’m not shy, but I would probably skip; it’s likely going to be too loud to network, you’ll be tired, and you’re going out of pocket. Unless there’s going to be a fabulous musical guest or an all you can eat buffet of your favorite food, it doesn’t sound like it will be worth it to you.

      Reply ↓
    4. The Accidental Tourist*

      I don’t think they are fun, certainly if you don’t know anyone. “Gala” is generally overselling it, most people are in business casual no matter what the dress code (because everyone is packing as small a suitcase as they can) so it’s not like you get to wear a ballgown or something. If you want a gala experience I’d pick a charity one closer to home where you can at least dress up and have some friends.

      Reply ↓
      1. High School Teacher*

        I have attended my husband’s work galas as a plus one (worth it because the keynote speaker was someone whose work I love, or because I was in my 20s and free food/ drinks were exciting, or because dressing up was nice and I was curious). However– I’m slightly extroverted and a professional extrovert (teacher)!

        I had a much BETTER time at charity galas, where 1)my mom invited me to fill out a table, expecting me to be charming but not expecting me to drop a bunch of money; she was on the board and had to buy the table, and would bump me if a possible donor accepted!
        or, 2) I invited friends to a local charity annual gala as my birthday party, letting them know that I considered attending the gala to be a gift to be, and it was a fun excuse to get dressed up and hang out with people I liked while doing good.

        That gala was less “fancy” than my mom’s (cash bar, cheese tray, vs plated dinner) but also didn’t include long boring speeches during the (underwhelming) plated dinner.

        Your question has me thinking about how my birthday’s coming up and maybe that would be fun again this year! April & October tend to be charity gala “season” in my experience.

        Reply ↓
    5. Laggy Lu*

      No don’t pay your own money. They tend to be long, with speakers and/or awards from/to people you don’t know. Also, you are then a captive audience, since it’s your meal.

      Reply ↓
    6. Bonkers*

      Personally, I’d rather use a dull spoon to gauge out my own eyeballs, especially at that price point, and especially especially at the end of a conference full of socializing. But YYMV!

      Reply ↓
    8. Kimmy Schmidt*

      In my experience, conferences use the word “gala” very loosely. It’s usually a relatively normal event (same dress code, same location) with maybe slightly fancier food or some local entertainment. They can be fun, but not for that price.

      Reply ↓
    9. WestsideStory*

      Two things: first, ask your company to pay for the event ticket, as it’s part of the conference.
      Second: ask around (in your broader network or even LinkedIn) if anyone has been to this event before, if so, questions about dress code, etc. For example if it’s a standing event (cocktails) or there will be set tables (typical awards events).

      I’ve been to some crazy terrific galas where everyone dressed up and mingled and even danced, and I’ve been to some boring ones where all we did was sit at tables eating a mediocre meal while awards were handed out to other people. Many, many times I have been the only one from my company to attend, but usually by the end of the conference I had found “my people” so didn’t have to stand alone in a corner. It was always worthwhile, even if to observe how my peers acted and who the players were.

      If you are interested in networking, being seated next to other folks in your industry is always a plus, and the gala printed program (there is almost always a program) can be mined later for names and companies to connect with in your career. If you are not easily conversational, that’s not a minus: you only need to be charming and polite to fellow humans for a time.

      Reply ↓
    10. Hyaline*

      I find fancy schmancy formal events fun when I am with people I enjoy being with–even just my spouse or one friend–but I wouldn’t want to fly solo. But honestly, the fun there is in getting dressed up, being in a lovely setting, chatting with nice people around us in low stakes ways…so if those things wouldn’t be there because everyone is just in spruced up workday clothes in a hotel ballroom that’s actually just the auditorium with the screen pulled up, it doesn’t sound fun and it also doesn’t sound like a great networking/work opportunity.

      Reply ↓
    11. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      I’ve been to a number of things that are at least gala-adjacent (usually billed as banquets). I wouldn’t pay out of pocket to go, and I’m an extrovert who likes dressing up and talking with strangers. It’s not a festive fun party–it’s work.

      I really wouldn’t pay that much out of pocket. I’d find other people who say they’re not going to the gala and ask if they want to find dinner somewhere. You’ll have better conversations and make better connections.

      If it’s a sit-down dinner you’ll realistically only be able to talk with the people on your immediate right and left because it’s going to get loud and they’ll have awards, speeches, sponsor thank-yous and whatnot.

      During the socializing happy hour beforehand you might be able to make a couple of acquaintances and end up sitting with them but you’ll have to be willing to talk to other people standing around looking as if they’re not sure they want to talk with strangers.

      The one exception I might make is if it’s in an amazing venue you want to see. I got to go to a gala in New Orleans (which is a town that knows how to party) and we were in the big space that stores giant Mardi Gras parade things like a giant Elvis. It was fun just being in the space and I wouldn’t have gotten to be in there otherwise. (This one was also actually a pretty good party, and work paid for the ticket.)

      Reply ↓
    12. RagingADHD*

      There was a time in my life when I probably would have really enjoyed the opportunity to get dolled up and meet people, but I am not shy and would be looking to flirt.

      Reply ↓
    13. Loreli*

      If it’s an industry conference the gala is part of it and your company should pay. It’s a networking event. Of think of it like the company holiday party where you’re expected to go.

      Reply ↓
    2. JustaTech*

      Eee…..
      As I remember Guess Who it’s all about physical attributes (red hair, glasses) so there’s absolutely the risk of it getting weird. (“Is the person fat?” – There’s no way that goes well.)

      If there were some way to do it about their job position/ what they do for work/ things about them as people (“is the person a knitter” “does the person make graphs?”) then maybe it could be fun.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        +1.

        Guess Who is all about physical attributes. Usually it’s stuff like eye color, hair color, glasses, etc. But with coworkers it runs the risk of being weird.

        It might be funny to retexture a Candyland or Sorry board for a workplace, now that I think about it.

        Reply ↓
        1. Academic Physics*

          Even Clue would be funny with the right audience (not a murder but maybe something innocuous like a houseplant death, or didn’t wash their coffee cup and left it in the sink).

          Reply ↓
    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agree, risks being a bad idea. If this is an ice breaker, maybe something more like…submit photos of your favorite animal, plant, or mineral and we guess who’s who.

      Reply ↓
    4. The Office Vegan*

      I think it’s skewing towards bad idea — but what’s your end goal here? We have a monthly game we play in the office called “masked mystery” where we have an employee (wearing a mask, so their entire face/hair is hidden) and then we give 5 clues as to their identity, like, “what’s your go-to coffee order?” and “what’s your star sign?” and “what’s your favorite Tom Hanks movie?” and then everyone has like 2 weeks to guess and put it on a slip of paper. It means everyone is going around to each other asking one another how they take their coffee and if they liked Cast Away, lol. We pull all the correct guesses out, put them into a hat, and then draw a name and that person wins a little gift card. It’s a light-hearted, work appropriate way of getting to know each other.

      Reply ↓
  28. Quoting Confidence*

    What are your favorite quotes (from songs, poems, TV, movies, leadership books or any other source) about being confident and strong that could be applied to work?

    I am working on a book – targeted at women – about how to show up at work in a more confident way. I’d like to include quotes about being strong, having confidence, taking control, overcoming fear etc. The quotes don’t need to be work related. It would be great to get some that are unusual (like song lyrics) and from women to other women.

    Reply ↓
    1. JustaTech*

      I’m not sure if this is what you’re going for, but I really like this line from Macklemore’s “Can’t Hold Us”:
      “When the night comes before the fight’s won, some might run against the test. But those that triumph embrace the fight because fear is there to prove that courage exists.”

      (This is from the extended version in the music video and not in the standard version.)

      Reply ↓
    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I particularly like Shinedown’s “Get Up” as a sort of “no seriously you got this” —

      If you were ever in doubt
      Don’t sell yourself short
      You might be bulletproof
      Hard to move mountains when you’re paralyzed
      But you gotta try, and I’m callin’ out

      (Caveat: actually reading the lyrics, I’m not sure my interpretation is quite on the ball, but I’ma stick with it.)

      Reply ↓
    3. RagingADHD*

      Are you working with a publisher or going indie? Because you can’t just quote song lyrics without getting permission or a license. Not even as chapter epigrams.

      It is never fair use to quote any amount of copyrighted lyrics as “flair” in a commercial publication You’d have to only use songs in public domain.

      If you’re indie, be prepared to pay a fairly hefty fee, and if you’re planning to submit to publishers, clearing those quotes would be a headache for them.

      Reply ↓
    4. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      Just as an FYI, if you’re planning on publishing this (vs distributing it to friends), fair use considerations for poems and song lyrics are very complicated and often unintuitive because the source medium is so short. I bring this up only because recording companies/promoters are litigious as hell, and can and will come over small-time publishers, so do be careful!

      Reply ↓
      2. Quoting Confidence*

        Good point – maybe it will need to be a Spotify list or something similar that links to artists that have power songs. I know I could use some encouragement these days.

        Reply ↓
    6. Nilsson Schmilsson*

      “I learned a long time ago that there is something worse than missing the goal, and that’s not pulling the trigger.” ― Mia Hamm

      Reply ↓
    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      One of my favorite quotes is “A ship in a harbour is safe but that is not what ships are built for” by John Shedd.
      As a woman in very male dominated industries throughout my career, it really helped me to just go for it.

      Reply ↓
    8. Coffeemate is searching the globe*

      How about the classic Helen Reddy – I am woman. Lots of lines from that one!

      Reply ↓
    9. Rara Avis*

      “Dux femina facti” — A woman was the leader of the deed, from Vergil’s Aeneid, about Queen Dido of Carthage

      Reply ↓
  29. page 197 slaps*

    I screwed up as a volunteer and don’t know how to respond. Sorry for the word vomit.

    I’ve been volunteering remotely for this org (in a different state) for a few months now, and took on a pretty big project at the beginning of the year that’s due on 4/1. My part of the project is pretty much done, but there are also some things that the organization has to put together before we can submit, and I completely forgot to make them aware of the due date until 3AM today.

    A very small part of this is because they dragged their feet on getting me some materials I needed before I could make meaningful progress on the project, so I didn’t engage with it very much until a few weeks ago. To be honest, I still *could* have been working on it during that time and leaving blanks where needed…but my full time job is unfortunately in a field being targeted by our federal government, I’m scared about literally everything, and I just didn’t have the energy to work around the missing information at the time. The correct response at that point was probably to gracefully bow out before it became a Problem, but this volunteer work is part of my long term plan to get the eff out of this job, so I was desperate to follow through.

    Also, once I had necessary information, it became clear I’d need to ask the coordinator some awkward follow-up questions about discrepancies in the documentation, but I was really scared that she’d take it badly so I put it off. Once I did ask, she gave me a half-answer that explains *some* of the issue, but doesn’t address the most important parts. As one of the few out-of-state volunteers, I don’t have the rapport with her as my on-site counterparts. The information I’m asking for may also be common knowledge to the more local volunteers, and I don’t think the coordinator fully internalized that I only have access to the information on the org’s website (which is sparse) and in the shared Google Drive folder for my narrow slice of our operations.

    I started my email this morning with an apology for notifying her so close to the deadline, but still feel really, really crappy. Like I said, this is part of my plan to leave my current job that made it so hard for me to work on this in the first place – I really need this project to succeed and for this person to like me. My instinct when I mess up is to keep apologizing until the error is officially Behind Us (so in this case, that would be after the project is submitted and [hopefully] approved), but I know that would just be annoying and needy. Still, I’m worried that keeping it to one short apology in an email sent during the wee hours (we’re in the same time zone) will seem flippant, or like I don’t understand how important this project is.

    Reply ↓
    1. RagingADHD*

      When the coordinator responds, do 1 more “I’m so sorry for the late notice.”

      Do not unpack your head to her about all the reasons. They don’t help her get the deliverables done timely, and they don’t help you look better.

      Stay 100 percent focused in your communication on what you need from her to submit for the deadline until it is done.

      Afterward, you can ask for a post mortem on processes to go over the limitations of the info you have access to, how to validate info with discrepancies, etc. At that point, it’s not about apologizing but about problem solving.

      TL/dr: don’t be sorry, fix it. In the short term, fix it by getting the project submitted. In the long term, help fix the process.

      Reply ↓
      1. page 197 slaps*

        Thanks for responding! I definitely had no intention of unpacking my head to her (which is partly why I did that here!), and my communications have all been primarily task-oriented. Just trying to fight the impulse to start every reply with an apology until the project is approved. I’ll keep it to one more, as you suggested. I’ll try to work up the courage to ask for a post mortem once everything is done.

        Reply ↓
    2. cmdrspacebabe*

      I’m with RagingADHD! It sounds like you already lead with an apology, so don’t let guilt feature too heavily in your correspondence – that’ll just make it harder for her to respond to since she’ll feel pressure to respond to your emotions. Lead with an apology and acknowledgement of the inconvenience; drop back to facts (‘I can do X but not Y, this is the state of Z’), avoiding the instinct to justify; then maybe sign off with one more “Sorry things worked out this way, let me know if there’s anything I can clarify”.

      Reply ↓
  30. Tired Mentally and Physically*

    How do you deal with burnout when you have work but also a chronic illness? I tend to need a lot of my PTO for doctor visits or flare-ups.

    Every three day weekend feels amazing, even though it’s still not enough (I work in a typical 9-5 M-F field)

    Reply ↓
    1. Tired too*

      I’m assuming you don’t have separate vacation leave? Honestly, it’s worth looking into taking a chunk of FMLA leave if you’ve hit that point. I had to take a leave of absence in an old job and while it was a financial hit, it was absolutely necessary to recover my mental health. I had my therapist document it as depression. Would absolutely do it again.

      Reply ↓
      1. Tired Mentally and Physically*

        We really don’t have a true separation. Sick and Vacation is pooled together.

        I also can not afford short leave unless for a procedure (which I might need this year). I already need a raise to meet the high increase in cost of living as is (our salary reviews are mid year)

        Reply ↓
    3. AnonymousOctopus*

      I’m in the same boat and am seconding intermittent FMLA. It can be used to receive/manage treatment, meaning that you can save your PTO for actual vacations*. Take a look and see if you qualify: https://www.dol.gov/general/topic/benefits-leave/fmla

      In offices that prefer more notice/structure for time off so they can plan meetings etc, I’ve seen colleagues work out a system with HR and their boss to use it every two weeks to get regular recovery time. For example one week they work Monday through Friday, the next they work Monday to Thursday and take the intermittent FMLA that Friday.

      You don’t get paid while on FMLA but it does protect your job. Those absences cannot count for disciplinary actions and you have protection from retaliation.

      * The Act does allow employers to require you to use PTO/sick leave if you have any accrued, but in my anecdotal experience it seems companies tend to not require it for intermittent leave. I’ve only seen than in relation to continuous leaves like parental leave, leave to recover from surgery, etc. I also think that some short-term disability insurance policies require you to use all accrued PTO before the policy starts paying out. (Alison, correct me if I’m wrong!)

      Reply ↓
  31. How can I help my coworker?*

    I’d love some advice on how to support my coworker against our narcissist boss. My coworker is an absolute superstar who is absolutely carrying our department. She is basically doing the work of a deputy director and our incompetent, insecure boss can’t stand her… while still expecting her to do it all and more.

    So far I’ve mostly just emotionally validated my coworker in the background, and encouraged her to ramp up her job search. But her confidence is shaken from this experience.

    I’m wondering if there’s more I can do to help deflect our boss’ ire and protect my coworker in the interim? We do different things so I can’t take on her tasks or anything. I’m fine to take a bit of the heat, though, as I’m secure in my expertise and have one foot out the door.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Unless you can take responsibility for the stuff Boss is blaming her for (which seems unlikely, if your tasks don’t overlap), or are willing to go over her head about what you’re observing and trust the higher-ups/HR to handle it with more than just a wag of the finger, I don’t really know that there’s anything you can do directly without risking Boss getting mad at her for “making her look bad.” Best to just continue being supportive and helping her get out if you can.

      Reply ↓
    2. Little Miss Helpful*

      Validating her like you’re doing is the best you can offer. It’s unlikely that you’ll be able to shift the dynamic; or maybe it does change, but not how you anticipated. It could get weird and/or messy. I saw a good quote today: “Those who in quarrels interpose, Must often wipe a bloody nose” (John Gay)

      Reply ↓
  32. Mbarr*

    I never thought I’d be THAT person, but I’m at the brink of wanting to job hunt, and I’m worried about the fallout of my leaving the company.

    My question is: I’m not advertising that I’m on the brink of job hunting, but how do I start preparing the team for my eventual departure? Are there phrases or things I can do to ease them? Former Manager has made it clear that their team does not have capacity or budget to take anything off my plate. I am literally the only person who does what I do. I have no backfill.

    The background: I was recently switched to work under a new manager, but 95% of my work is still doing stuff for my former manager. (It’s a whole thing. New Manager isn’t enthralled, but there are so many politics at play.) I genuinely don’t want to leave the job/company – I like what I do. I’m fairly spoiled in my role. I’m paid a ridiculous amount of money. But I’m so tired of dealing with Former Manager. Due to the politics, I don’t think there’s an easy resolution.

    I don’t want to burn bridges. I like Former Manager (as a manager, not as a person). I get they’re stuck between a rock and a hard place. New Manager is also stuck with the politics, but she’s more passive and I don’t trust her to fight for me. Our Senior Director is a fantastic person I’ve known for almost 15 years, but again, politics mean I don’t trust her to be able to protect me.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Don’t borrow trouble from the future. The time to prepare your team is when you’ve actually accepted the new position and set a start date.

      If it would make you feel better to spend some time getting all your documentation up to date, so that somebody can pick it up and run with it, then you can do that any time. In fact, you should do that as a matter of course whether you are job-searching or not.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        I second this advice. Document the routine processes you do, document the weird edge cases you have to make special solutions for, make sure the documentation is stored in a shared location.

        You’re literally the only person who does what you do at this company, but that’s not a “you” problem, that’s a company problem and it’s up to the company to solve it when you leave. When you have a new position, give your required notice and spend your notice period working on more documentation/hand-overs/finish up tasks. Then go to your new job with a clear conscience.

        Reply ↓
    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      I don’t understand what ‘protect’ means in this context. Former Manager isn’t going to fire you. Former Manager just wants you to keep working on their stuff. I’m presuming, of course, the Former Manager can’t fire you or something.

      In that case, I’d talk to Senior Director about getting you untangled. See what they suggest about getting your workload down. I’d also talk to New Manager about timelines and how she wants to proceed. I mean, she’s not going to want you to work for Former Manager 95% of the time in say six months, right? If so, what’s the point of being on her team?

      If that doesn’t work, then you need to gradually reduce the work you do for the old team. Either that means just dropping tasks and saying you don’t have time to do it, or it means turning things in later and later. As things drop, your situation will change one way or the other.

      If you still want to leave, the best way to help your old team is by creating documentation for what you do.

      Reply ↓
    3. Busy Middle Manager*

      I feel like you’re asking the wrong question. The right question is “how do I slowly give work to the team I used to be on.”

      Also in this job market, your much bigger problem is actually getting an offer, not handling the transition part. Only industry that seems to be hiring is nursing.

      Reply ↓
    4. Somewhere in Texas*

      As someone who has left a few jobs it was hard to leave, DOCUMENT DOCUMENT DOCUMENT!

      As soon as I started applying, I just tracking what work I did and how I did it. This meant when I did give my 2 weeks, I had something tangible to hand over. Bonus for you is that you are in a place where you *should* be handing things back to your former team, so if that happens you will already be prepared.

      Reply ↓
      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        Yup. Document. Clean up and organize files. Make lists. The best thing you can do is make sure that you’re setting a successor up for a smooth transition as best you can.

        Reply ↓
  33. yikes on bikes*

    My employer is not doing well financially and I’m wondering if I can take my time looking for a new job, or if I should hurry it up as much as possible. For context, I’m located in Europe.

    What’s happened so far:
    – we’ve had significant losses every quarter for quite a few quarters now
    – an external financial consultant has been brought in
    – our wages are not officially frozen but the management has made it clear that there’s no money for any raises, even quality of life ones
    – we’ve stopped all travel and events, including the NY party (which was the one big event for morale that we’ve always had)
    – there’s a hiring freeze; all departments I work with are understaffed and underpaid
    – several people in the Accounting department have quit
    – while passing by our head administrator’s desk, I saw a notice indicating that the company has failed to pay its electricity bill.

    What’s still going well:
    – our wages are being paid regularly
    – none of the upper management have left
    – we have several big clients on multi-year contracts
    – there have been no layoffs so far.

    This is my first time in a situation like this and I know I need to get out eventually. Even before the current situation, this job was more stress than it was worth, as we don’t have enough people and no clear priorities. However, I have a ton of vacation time saved up, and the company doesn’t pay it out when you leave. I also really like my coworkers, and because I’m by far the most senior person in my team, I know they would struggle a lot if I left very suddenly (not saying I’m irreplaceable, but it’s a niche position – we’ve had a very hard time hiring juniors, let alone seniors, especially since the wages are not competitive).

    My current plan is to spend the next 6 months putting together resources for my team, taking my accrued leave, and looking for a job that would be a good fit (which will likely take a while since, like I said, my skills are fairly niche). I’m not worried about layoffs, but I am worried that the company might fall apart/be sold and stripped for parts earlier than that. I’d really love some advice from people who have been in a similar situation!

    Reply ↓
    1. Strive to Excel*

      “Company has failed to pay its electricity bill”

      This is a bad sign and you should be preparing to leave a lot earlier than 6 months. Get your job search ducks in order.
      * If you’re in the US, get anything medical you might need done now – dentist, glasses, checkups, etc
      * Savings – do you have enough to hold you over for the next 6 months? If you’re in a niche field, more than that?
      * Get your references organized as much as possible. Not just your own, but work out what you’d say for your juniors.

      Reply ↓
    2. yikes on bikes*

      I meant cost of living raise, not quality of life! This is a dead giveaway for what sector I’m in, haha.

      Reply ↓
    4. The Accidental Tourist*

      It’s fascinating how long a place can circle the drain. I just left a place that had been flashing increasing warning lights for more than a year and they hired someone after me (?!?). I would try to take your vacation and job search during it, aiming to be gone in six months. But I would be annoyed to start a new job with no vacation having lost all my old vacation unpaid.

      Reply ↓
    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      I don’t think this company will last six months. Time to take vacation as possible and job hunt. I’d give up the vacation if I found something earlier rather than later.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        I agree the company won’t last six months. I missed that the accounting team left, pay attention when the money folks get the hell out of dodge m.

        Reply ↓
    6. llama whisperer*

      I have always wondered what happens to these contracts when a company goes under. The company I work for is in a very similar situation, and I wonder what happens to those projects we are in the middle of..

      Reply ↓
      1. Dancing Otter*

        A lot of times a company goes into bankruptcy but continues to operate for the benefit of the creditors committee and/or under bankruptcy court supervision.
        Sometimes, they recapitalize and survive, or get bought as a going concern (rather than to sell off piecemeal).

        Reply ↓
    7. Chauncy Gardener*

      If the company is not paying its electric bill, you need to start looking for another job now.
      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
    8. allathian*

      Start looking now!

      Given that you’re in Europe, take a good look at your employment contract and any collective agreements that apply to you before you do anything else. If you’re a member of a union, consult their lawyer if necessary (I can get one free consult per year and any others at a great discount, although I’ve never had to consult them).

      I’m in Finland, and here the standard notice period is two weeks if you’ve been at your current employer for less than 5 years and a month after that. In some fields and positions it can be two months or even longer after 15 years. The notice periods are the same here whether you quit or are laid off. The difference is that if you quit, the employer can require you to take out any outstanding vacation days, even if it means extending your employment contract slightly to cover that period. But if you’re laid off, the employer must pay any vacation days that don’t fit in the notice period. Flexitime works the same way, you need to use up any accrued work hours before you leave.

      That said, lots of people switch jobs so that they’re officially contracted with two employers at the same time, on vacation during the notice period from the old employer while working for the new one.

      Reply ↓
  34. FD*

    I could use some advice.

    I graduated back in 2010 and struggled to find any sort of career job. I took a couple of fairly terrible ones and came out with enough accounting experience to start down the path of being a staff accountant. Now, I’m 37 and I’m at the point where I’ve got a staff accountant job and am getting occasional pings from reputable recruiters. Problem is, I don’t think my current org is going to survive (nonprofit sector and some other internal factors), so I’m slowly job-searching.

    The thing is, I’m not sure I want to stay in this field. It’s…fine. It’s aggressively fine. I can do accounting work easily; it’s not something I find particularly difficult. But I think of doing 30 more years of this and go ‘euggh’.

    Here are the major factors. I don’t think I want to manage people. I don’t mind managing teams on projects, but the hire / fire / being the boss thing really doesn’t appeal to me.

    I seem to get kind of bored in my jobs after a couple of years. I do a lot of skill development, but I tend to start finding the borders of what I can do if I’m not willing to try for a promotion, and then I get kind of bored. I suspect I would be a lot happier doing some sort of project-oriented job or perhaps being a contractor. (Though I don’t really have the sales skills for that.)

    I love programming–I do it in my free time and somewhat in my job just to make annoying stuff less annoying. My ‘if I could magic up a job’ dream job is to be able to work on the really intricate old code, the stuff that we have to keep running because too much relies on it. My dad works with various programmers, and he’s talked about the sort of people who work with assembly languages, and that sounds really appealing. That said, I know what the situation is in tech (terrible) and if I was going to do that at all,I think I’d need to go back to school, since I think I’d need a better foundation in various areas beyond what I can self teach. Also, would I love it as much as I think I would? There’s a difference between dreaming of being an artist and really being a working artist.

    I know I’m extremely good at process documentation and development, and people have consistently told me I’m extremely good at explaining technical concepts well. I’ve defacto run some projects at my current job, though they’re fairly small and it’s all informal. I’ve also discovered recently that I’m good at facilitating meetings (keeping track of who hasn’t gotten to talk, keeping things on track, etc). And I’m really good at self-teaching.

    Does anyone have any advice or recommendations for fields to look into? I’m not really even sure what to explore from here.

    Reply ↓
    1. Just a Pile of Oranges*

      Maybe technical writing? There’s a whole field out there for people who can take complex subjects and write understandable user’s manuals and documentation.

      You could also look into like, executive assistant/office manager type work.

      Reply ↓
      1. FD*

        I think I’d be amazing at technical writing, but I’ve heard it’s undervalued and difficult to get consistent work. Is that an accurate assessment.

        Reply ↓
        1. Pie Fight*

          I’m a technical writer and about 10% of my job is actual writing. When AI can herd cats, then I’m in trouble. :-)

          For FD: Contract jobs might be inconsistent but I can’t speak to that personally. Full-time work does still exist.

          Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Old code + accounting experience to me says “bank software support”. You might look for “Software Support” or “application support” jobs for banks in your area and look at what their requirements are.

      For those not aware – a ton of banks use older or legacy software, since transitioning those databases takes a metric butt-tonne of work.

      Reply ↓
      1. FD*

        I have heard about that, and it’s definitely in my interest list! The positions I’ve seen seem to want a bunch of experience I don’t have but I have it on my ‘look for networking opportunities’ list.

        Reply ↓
      2. Pocket Mouse*

        Omg, learn COBOL and position yourself to fix the systems that run on it. That’s SO needed and a minuscule number of people can do it.

        Reply ↓
    3. Parenthesis Guy*

      Project Management – specifically Product Owner. That’ll let you manage projects and lead teams without having to do the whole hire/fire bit.

      Reply ↓
      1. FD*

        I have looked into that before I have not previously gotten anywhere with getting any interviews for it, but perhaps I could try again and that could be another networking focus.

        Reply ↓
    4. Not So Little My*

      Programming for older/non-tech organizations that have a lot of legacy code can be a good place to look. The jobs are not sexy but can be very stable, and if you enjoy problem-solving, it can be fun.

      Reply ↓
      1. FD*

        I do enjoy problem solving. It’s one of the things that I like about programming. And it’s the part that I actually enjoy about accounting for that matter. I haven’t really thought about looking at non-tech industries with tech needs outside of banking, but I will look into that more.

        Reply ↓
    5. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Have you ever considered consulting? Gonna confess that I’m thinking of this for accounting because I vaguely know a couple firms that work in that area, but I thought it might help with the boredom problem you mentioned. I wound up in consulting and being able to switch on and off projects was great for me, especially because my firm worked on a partial staffing model where I’d be on 3-5 projects at a time. Different types of projects, and totally different clients and client cultures, which kept it interesting and also gave me a little chance to explore new areas. I’m no longer at that firm but I’m sort of an internal consultant in my subject area, which is working just at well at keeping me interested in my work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ama*

        Also maybe an accounting firm that has lots of different clients rather than staff accountant at one company. My dad was an accountant at a general accounting firm for the last 20 years of his career – he had many different clients with different types of needs (everything from just double checking report numbers to helping clients dig through old financial records to prepare for an audit). According to him it was never boring.

        Reply ↓
      2. FD*

        I have, but I was mostly thinking of it in terms of doing it solo, and I worry about whether I have sufficient sales ability for it.

        Ama, your suggestion regarding looking for a position at a firm that handles multiple clients is a good one. I will check into that further.

        Reply ↓
    6. keeper of the ancient code*

      Have you tried working on an open source project? If you have time, that might be a good way to get a feel for software development before you make a decision about going back to school. If you haven’t before, you can start by searching GitHub for topics you’re interested in until you find a repo with issues labeled “good first issue” or similar. It’s pretty common for those to be documentation tasks, which sounds like it would play to your skills.

      If you end up going for it, I agree with the other commenters that you could make a really nice career of doing tech work at non-tech companies. Strive to Excel mentioned banks; healthcare is another field that’s notorious for its weird old legacy systems. Maybe accounting firms would appreciate an IT staff or engineer with some domain knowledge?

      Truly, though, your dream job is a role you find at every kind of institution. And while they don’t make as much as folks at tech companies, you simply cannot beat the job security. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. FD*

        Oh, you know, I had never really thought about the fact that open source projects benefit from people who can document things as well as work on the code. Thank you for the tip. I don’t think I would have thought of that on my own.

        I appreciate the other advice too. Thank you!

        Reply ↓
    7. Kuddel Daddeldu*

      Business consulting, especially in the process/management systems/business continuity field. That’s what I do for a living now, with a side order of cyber security (my degree is in IT but that’s 35 years ago). There is a huge market especially with AI tools likely to change a lot of business processes drastically.
      The nice thing is that I get to re-invent myself every few years. I literally worked on all seven continents, six of which in a single year. Little time to get bored.

      Reply ↓
  35. Ann Onymous*

    Just wanted to share something uplifting that happened to me at work this week. I attended a presentation given by someone wrapping up their time in a competitive rotation program that our company has for early career people. I served as a mentor for this person when they first joined our company as a new grad and encouraged them when they asked my advice on applying for the program. Seeing a former mentee with a lot of potential go on to achieve big things has been a highlight of my week.

    Reply ↓
  36. MissBliss*

    How do you write your “goodbye, nice to work with you all!” mass email when you’re really sad about leaving (voluntarily)?

    Reply ↓
    1. Dita*

      The more people it’s going to, the shorter I would make it. Save the details for people you’ve worked really closely with. As Alison always says, those kinds of personal notes can be really meaningful (and I bet you’ll get several from your coworkers, too—screenshot and send them to yourself if they’re in systems you’ll lose access to!). Include your contact info if you’re genuinely interested in staying in touch and/or willing to get future networking requests from folks.

      Congrats on your next step, and may it be an even better environment than the one you’re leaving :)

      Reply ↓
  38. Omelas employee*

    For y’all who have followed me on my being stuck managing toxic employee, Linda, with no power to fire/write up/PIP my staff, she resigned! My supervisor was finally on site when more toxic stuff went down and was able to witness the BS herself. Supervisor decided to write Linda up and after we sat down and explained why, she stormed out and yelled “I resign.” It has been a learning experience for me on holding my ground with a frankly, scary employee.

    I was wondering if managing is simply not for me because I am not sure if I can have these difficult conversations regularly. My supervisor assured me Linda was a outlier case in her career and that staff usually don’t triple down on accusations that their manager has told them they investigated with 5 other staff who won’t corroborate their accusation.

    Unfortunately, my temp management contract is ending and the org is not hiring me full time, but this gives me time to reflect on what I want to do with my professional life.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I have only once in my career had to deal with anyone in that ballpark, and I’ve worked retail & alcohol. Unless you’re in a really dysfunctional industry, you won’t be having those conversations regularly

      Reply ↓
    2. RagingADHD*

      The difficult conversations get a heckova lot easier if you have actual authority to hold people accountable.

      Reply ↓
    3. MsM*

      Yeah, Linda and the circumstances surrounding her sound like a unique brand of nightmare and I would not base your managerial competency on this example. Frankly, having kept your sanity through the whole thing speaks quite highly of your ability to muster grace under pressure.

      Reply ↓
  39. M*

    Just a vent:

    I’ve posted before but my husband is going through it at work. He’s interviewed for a different team and its fairly likely that he’ll get the position (hes good at interviewing and they have many spots open), but it seems like until that happens everything at work is just terrible. I can’t do much but be supportive but anytime I get a text about how bad it is my heart just sinks. I hate getting these texts because I just feel so helpless.

    Fingers crossed that he gets the position (god, that would be nice if he was notified today, but its much more likely that it’ll be next week.)

    Reply ↓
    2. My Brain is Exploding*

      I feel this so much…but with our kids! I, too, hate getting these texts and feeling so helpless.

      Reply ↓
  40. cheese slut*

    Okay, weigh in on a silly hypothetical debate. If you had an employee coworker who showed up in a necklace with charms spelling out “CHEESE SLUT,” what would the response be like in your office? Would anyone say anything? Assume this is not customer-facing.

    Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Uh that would not fly. At all.

      A joking aside at lunch of “Yeah, I guess you could call me a cheese slut” might go by without any fallout, depending on who else was sitting at the kitchen table. But not something in writing that you’ve got to look at for 8 hours.

      Reply ↓
    3. Coffeemate is searching the globe*

      I don’t think people would really care but they might be curious if meant something specific, or is it just that they really like cheese

      Reply ↓
      1. linger*

        That’s about where I land too. I’m not entirely certain of the intended meaning, but the most likely interpretation of “extreme cheese lover” doesn’t seem problematic. So it’s not at the level of “serving c__t” where the mere mention of the word is not going to fly in most workplaces regardless of the intention. I can see where others might extract something offensive to them, but I think they’d be doing most of the work themselves.

        Reply ↓
      2. Wolf*

        I’d read it as “person who would do a lot for cheese”, and consider it a bit of an odd choice for work.

        Reply ↓
    4. RagingADHD*

      90 percent of people wouldn’t notice at all, 5 percent would laugh, and 5 percent would quietly roll their eyes and possibly ask someone else if they saw it / what they thought about it.

      Reply ↓
    5. Balanceofthemis*

      That’s actually hilarious and I low key want one. If the bosses noticed, they’d tell her it’s inappropriate for work, but no she wouldn’t get in trouble.

      Reply ↓
    6. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I wouldn’t say anything but I would definitely judge the heck out of them and it would lower my opinion of them.

      Reply ↓
    10. JustaTech*

      Would it be super obvious? Like, inch-tall letters?

      Honestly, in my lab people either wouldn’t notice or think it was funny. (It took folks 3 *years* to notice that my lunch box says “Organs for Transplant”, so we’re not always the noticing type.)
      Most of management would think it was funny, but some of them would be annoyed, but only if it was “off-site people are here” day.

      Very much a “depends on the office, industry and region” kind of thing.

      Reply ↓
    11. Shiny Monkey*

      It’s inappropriate language for work. Someone outside the team might ignore it, but it would definitely raise some eyebrows and word would go around. If a team lead noticed, the employee would definitely be told not to wear it.

      Reply ↓
    12. WantonSeedStitch*

      I would be like “WHERE the fuck do I get that necklace?!?!” But I would also simultaneously be thinking, “I would NOT wear a necklace with the word ‘slut’ on it to work. Bad call.” I think most people would be the same: approving of the necklace in general terms and perhaps even complimenting it, but also thinking it was not office-appropriate. If my employee did it? I’d take them aside and be like “you need to save that necklace for when you’re not at work.” I think most managers in my department would do the same.

      Reply ↓
    13. Tangerina Warbleworth*

      Draw my own bingo card whose squares are fellows employees and how they would react, e,g., a “Chris will laugh his head off” square, a “Joe will run to to Kathryn’s office to jump up and down yelling that she needs to be fired” square, a “Maria will go all squinty and then go pout in her office” square, etc.

      Reply ↓
  41. Nil*

    I am trying to move from academia to industry, after 4 years of postdoc. The market isn’t good in Europe, and I feel like the tarrif wars will tank the economy everywhere, not just in the US. I have been job searching for 3 months now, without even one interview invitation. I know it’s not considered too long these days, but with the dark future ahead, it is just so draining…

    Reply ↓
    1. basil and thyme*

      Good luck! I got out of academia after about 6 yrs of post-doc. (The last two were involuntary, I had an industry job lined up, and it fell through, so I jumped on another post-doc). I’ve been in industry for a while. Good times and bad times, but I sincerely wish you luck.

      Reply ↓
  42. Low Stakes Lulu*

    Do you think drinking seltzer from the can on a zoom meeting looks terribly unprofessional? I’m a consultant and my clients are pretty laid back but I’m thinking I need to just start using a glass.

    I know this is a ridiculous question but I really prefer drinking from a can and have convinced myself it’s not that bad looking but I realized this week that if I had someone working for me, I’d tell them not to do it.

    Right?

    Reply ↓
    1. Coffeemate is searching the globe*

      I don’t think it’s unprofessional at all. Why would you tell someone not to do it?

      Reply ↓
    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think this calls for the adult version of the “1-slurp rule” that you tell kids drinking something through a straw.

      You can drink from a can, but you shouldn’t go through the spectacle of doing a 180 degrees inverted with a head tilt and audible noise.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pay no attention...*

      IMO, drinking from a glass might actually be more suspect because it could be anything, but from the can it’s clear you are drinking seltzer …unless you want to be sneaky on what you’re drinking. I know you didn’t indicate you were using one, but I find giant cups — like Stanley — to be more of a distraction.

      Reply ↓
    4. The Accidental Tourist*

      Eh you can’t win because I once poured kamboucha into a glass because I felt the highly decorative can looked unprofessional and the person I was talking to was convinced I had a beer!

      Reply ↓
      1. Generic Name*

        This triggered a memory of working from home during COVID. I have these massively large stemless wine glasses I won in a raffle. They fit a whole can of pop in them, with ice. They are so large I never use them for wine. I was drinking some flavored iced tea from this enormous stemless wine glass, and most of the ice was gone, and because of the flavoring, the tea looked reddish. My coworkers were shocked and thought I was drinking wine. I saw the looks on their faces and rushed to explain it was tea and the ice had melted. I’m not sure they believed me.

        Reply ↓
    5. Wanderer*

      You are overthinking it. A can is fine, as would be a glass. Most people would assume you have seltzer instead of… anything, really.
      Formal meetings with people high up in the ranks would be different, but I believe that isn’t the situation you are thinking about.

      Reply ↓
    6. Antilles*

      If your clients are “pretty laid back”, I don’t think it matters. People regularly drink from all cans of soda, bottles of water, glasses, or reusable cups like Yetis/Stanleys in meetings and it’s all pretty whatever. Maybe if you’re in a situation which demands top-level polish or something, then I’d probably pour it into a glass, but for just regular occurrences, you’re totally fine with whatever works best for you.
      The only exception is that I would never drink anything from a dark glass bottle, because far and away the most common type of bottle of that ilk is a beer bottle. Even if you’re drinking Coca-Cola or non-alcoholic beer or whatever, the shape/style of the bottle is so intuitively linked with “beer bottle”, that it would probably raise some eyebrows.

      Reply ↓
    7. Hard of hearing*

      You are over thinking it. I work for a fortune 100 company and even our CEO drinks from cans and bottled soda on video calls. Unless you have a very odd company culture (or work for a competitor of the specifically branded soda you are drinking) nobody will care.

      Reply ↓
    8. Blue Pen*

      I mean, maybe if you’re chugging and burping and sloppily wiping your face afterward, it’s unprofessional. But simply taking a sip from a can is not unprofessional at all.

      Reply ↓
  43. Staying organized and feeling accomplished without external structure*

    Tl;dr: how do I feel accomplished when I don’t have anything concrete to show for it? How do i stay organized when everything is nebulous?

    I recently switched roles (within the same company) from one with a lot of structure and short-term tasks, to something less structured and more long-term oriented (except when it’s reactive). Basically instead of putting information into the database* and shuffling papers around, I’m in charge of the information in database itself – creating and running reports, watching for and cleaning up bad entries, and responding to issues. I like the job and my boss says I’m doing great, but I miss the easy satisfaction of data entry, and I miss being able to turn off my brain a bit! And without the set structure of having to get everything entered by the end of the day, I feel a bit lost and I’m worried that I’ll lose track of all the different things I’m supposed to look at or follow up on. Does anyone have any suggestions for how I can feel more organized and achieve-y?

    (* Loosely speaking – it’s our ERP system)

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Here’s a mental model that might work for you.

      Before, you had a bunch of small tasks to do and a deadline of 5:00 pm today.

      Now you have a bunch of bigger tasks to do, and the deadlines are a mix of immediately when somebody requests it, once a week, once a quarter, any time the automated alerts flag something.

      In the before times, you didn’t need a work planner or a system for triaging – you just handled things as they came in. Now, you do.

      So think about what you’re doing, ask your boss for suggestions, see if you can get info on what the previous person was doing in their job, and start to lay out your own priorities.

      Book the last 3 days in the quarter with an appointment of, eg, “Review audit logs, run DB compaction, update alert thresholds.” Book the first 2 days in every month for “Run monthly reports”. Etc.

      You’re still responsible for your own workload and schedule – it’s just a lot more obvious now that you’re the one who has to monitor and surveil it.

      Reply ↓
  44. Database Queery*

    I misspoke at work and offended someone, but I thought what I said was clear — I welcome other folks’ input on my phrasing. Background: I’m on the autism spectrum and have mild difficulty spotting ambiguity in language.

    I met with the head of another department to discuss me helping her team on a major document review. I’ve got a reputation for being extremely detail oriented and I tend to catch very small errors that others miss. She explained her team would do the initial screening to ensure macro-level accuracy, then give to me for a final review (grammar, formatting inconsistencies, etc). I said, “Okay, so you will confirm the primary data and then pass to me to pick up any remaining slack?” I thought this was neutral but later she mentioned that she was irritated, saying, “My team are definitely not slackers”. I apologized and clarified, but does the verb phrase “picking up slack” imply the noun “slacker” to the average American English speaker? I’d like input on whether this is a phrase I should eliminate from business communications.

    Reply ↓
    1. The Accidental Tourist*

      She sounds over the top, I’m as neurotypical as they come and wouldn’t find any offense in what you said.

      Reply ↓
    2. Balanceofthemis*

      I wouldn’t take offense, to me it’s a pretty innocuous phrase. Don’t use it with that person, but I wouldn’t think it’s a problem phrase in general.

      Reply ↓
    3. M*

      I’d say that slack has a definite negative connotation to it. Not world ending, but I could see why the other person was a bit miffed by your phrasing.

      Reply ↓
    4. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      “Picking up the slack” implies the team isn’t doing their job (so they’re slackers) and you’re have to do their jobs for them.

      Reply ↓
    5. Abogado Avocado*

      “Picking up slack” does not mean you’re calling anyone a slacker. It’s saying you’ll deal with small details that might get lost in the overall project. Your co-worker is being an ass.

      Reply ↓
      1. TerrorCotta*

        It doesn’t mean you’re calling anyone a slacker, but it also doesn’t mean “I’ll take care of the fine details.”

        In this case it means “I’ll clean up what your team missed,” which could definitely have been expressed in a better way. Co-worker might have been overly touchy about it, but she wasn’t an ass for being taken aback.

        Reply ↓
    6. WorkerDrone*

      Ah, I see both why you said it and why she bristled at it.

      “Picking up slack” to me does absolutely imply someone was slacking off. That is, as far as I understand the phrase, the whole point of it. ‘Slack’ implies inactivity, not being busy. “Cut me some slack” means basically, give me a break, so if you’re picking up slack, you’re taking on work that someone else had a “break” on.

      Or, think of it more literally. A taut rope means effort is being made to hold it taut. A slack rope means no one is making effort. Slack = no effort.

      So when you say you’re picking up slack, you’re saying you’re picking up the work someone else isn’t doing. That isn’t true of what you described. Others are doing the work, but a final review is needed after the work.

      Now, all that having been said, this probably wouldn’t register as more than mild annoyance for me. BUT if I were a manager, I would want to kind of protect my employees by being clear that you were not picking up slack because my employees aren’t working.

      Reply ↓
    7. Parenthesis Guy*

      ” I apologized and clarified, but does the verb phrase “picking up slack” imply the noun “slacker” to the average American English speaker?”

      No. Your co-worker is being ridiculous.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        Eh. It does imply the word slacker. However, absent any other context suggesting that OP thinks the team is not doing their jobs, it’s an overreaction to be irritated by it.

        Agree that coworker is being ridiculous.

        Reply ↓
    8. Spencer Hastings*

      Neurotypical US English speaker here. I’d say it means something different than “slackers”, so her objection was not totally apt. However, the way I understand it, it means something like “doing more than one’s fair share to cover for someone else”. So I can understand why she would be annoyed. But I think I would have just assumed the other person misspoke (like maybe they meant to say “pick up any extra”), if someone said this to me in this context.

      Reply ↓
    9. Chaos Farmer*

      Perhaps there’s a different meaning closer to “tighten up”, in the context of gears or motors. But that might not be an average english speaker’s first thought.

      Reply ↓
    10. TerrorCotta*

      You’re correct that “Picking up slack” does not mean “the other team members are slackers (lazy).”

      BUT for this task, it does imply sloppiness, or carelessness on their part – which is presumably what the manager was bristling at, even though she should have accepted the apology once you clarified.

      I don’t think “pick up the slack” would be perceived negatively if you were stepping in to do a task that hadn’t been previously assigned to anyone, or if YOU were asking for volunteers to assist you in something. “I haven’t been able to finish this report/get to the donut store, I could really use someone to help pick up the slack.”

      The difference here is that there’s an implication that they failed/will fail at their initial task, requiring you to…y’know.

      “I’ll review it, give it a final pass, take a look, give one more read-through” would all probably go over better in the future, either way.

      Reply ↓
    11. PotatoRock*

      I don’t think “picking up slack” necessarily implies the other team are slackers, but I also don’t think it quite fits the way you used it (west coast raised American English speaker). So I would just say something like: “can you confirm the primary data, and then I’ll do a fine tooth comb read” or “careful copy edit” or “pass it to my team for a fresh set of eyes on P’s and Q’s”

      Reply ↓
    12. Kt*

      To me pick up the slack does mean that the other team will not finish their jobs, that they will hand off something half done. A better phrase would be “finish the remainder” or “finish what remains”. It seems to me that this person is taking offense too easily but yes, there is to me a definite implication of “not doing your job” to “pick up the slack”. In a literal sense, it makes me feel the other team is not “pulling on the same rope” in your opinion.

      Reply ↓
    13. tabloidtainted*

      By definition, picking up the slack means stepping in for someone who isn’t doing work that needs to get done. There isn’t an inherent negative connotation, but you also would not pick up the slack for someone on top of their work.

      Reply ↓
    14. Hyaline*

      Eh, “pick up the slack” can have a negative connotation–because it implies that there is slack being left to pick up. It doesn’t necessarily imply that others are overt slackers, but it’s not the best phrasing if what you mean isn’t “there is unfinished work, either from understaffing or people not doing their share.” It’s also not really what you seem to mean here? I would use “pick up the slack” to mean doing work that was slipping or not getting finished, especially due to inadequate manpower: “Yes, while Jim is gone Bianca has me picking up the slack in her department” or “Those rush orders are going to be a nightmare, so Susan wants our team to help her pick up the slack.” Here, you’re not picking up slack, you’re doing a final pass and proofreading polish on the work: “Okay, so you will confirm the primary data and then pass to me to proof and polish.”

      Long answer: Yes, drop this phrase as it’s a little fraught and I’m not sure you’re using it the way others would use it.

      Reply ↓
    15. fhqwhgads*

      It doesn’t imply the word slacker but it is definitely not neutral. Picking up the slack implies they left something undone that needed doing. If you’re familiar with the expression “drop the ball”, it’s not quite the same but it’s like you pre-emptively suggested they’re about to drop the ball and you will then pick it up.

      Reply ↓
    16. Karstmama*

      I think she was being a bit oversensitive, yes. The phrase I use for this type of thing is ‘back stopping’, meaning ‘trying to catch anything others have missed’, but I like Hyaline’s ‘proof and polish’ a lot.

      Reply ↓
    17. JelloStapler*

      That’s a stretch even for this neurotypical gal. She sounds excessively defensive about her team.

      Reply ↓
  45. A Good Egg*

    I hate the word “mentee.” There was a perfectly good word (protégé) that could be used instead, but the current evolution of American English prefers the combination mentor/mentee. My guess is the m/m alliteration is attractive, but other relationships like boss/subordinate, teacher/student, coach/player don’t start with the same letter. Any one have thoughts?

    Reply ↓
    1. The Accidental Tourist*

      Oh haha words are so funny I would be QUITE upset to be referred to as a protege. That sounds a bit too intimate to me, like they formed my whole being from a young age or something.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I think “protégé” carries a connotation that you’ve shaped this person and are responsible for their success to a degree that “mentee” doesn’t. I’d strongly prefer the latter, if I’d just been assigned this person as part of a company program and they were only doing the bare minimum check-ins.

        Reply ↓
        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          Protégé implies a somewhat unequal power balance to me (where the more senior person has a degree of control over the other person’s career) whereas mentor/mentee sounds more equal, with more give and take – maybe just because the words are similar.

          It might be just because I’ve heard of situations in the arts world where someone has been described as the protégé of a well-known leader and the relationship has turned out to be abusive or inappropriate, whereas I don’t have those associations with mentor/mentee. Though of course not everyone associates those words with the same things.

          Reply ↓
        2. Agree*

          ““protégé” carries a connotation that you’ve shaped this person and are responsible for their success to a degree that “mentee” doesn’t.”

          I agree. After all, it its French for “protected”, so one person is actively looking after the (career) development and wellbeing of the less experienced other and is helping them succeed, either through connections, opportunities or pulling strings. It’s different from coaching, teaching or mentoring.

          Reply ↓
      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        Protege is a VERY different term than mentee. Carries completely different connotations, and not exactly positive ones in a business environment.

        Reply ↓
    2. M*

      I think protege implies super-smarts? to me at least. I tend to not think of it as a “relationship” term, personally. Whereas mentor/mentee I think defines the relationship better.

      Reply ↓
    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Protege has too many connotations of favoritism for me (it comes from the French for “protected” after all). I’m quite happy to see that one hit the trashcan.

      Reply ↓
      1. mreasy*

        Protege feels both old-fashioned and like a much closer relationship than mentor/mentee to me, and it seems like there is only one per person – like, my protege is going to take over for me when I retire type thing. I can act as a mentor for many people and none of them are going to be the heir to a fortune.

        Reply ↓
        2. Annony*

          Yes. To me it implies much more involvement and investment in that person’s career. Mentor can be much more casual, someone you can go to for advice but isn’t necessarily super invested in the choices you make.

          Reply ↓
    4. Kimmy Schmidt*

      A protégé and mentee are not the same thing in my head. Someone could have multiple mentees that they help navigate professional norms, build a network, learn about the field, and explore career development. A protégé implies a much more intimate (and longer) relationship – more like an apprentice.

      Reply ↓
    5. Charlotte Lucas*

      I hate it, too! Mentor is a name from Greek mythology. I prefer protege, but I really would love to get some traction for “Telemachus.”

      Reply ↓
    6. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I think you have a quirk in hating a perfectly acceptable word that is half of the pair. The language isn’t going to change because of your pet peeve.

      Reply ↓
      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        It’s a back formation that makes me think of the word “demented,” and I am perfectly comfortable hating it.

        I never use it, but I also think “mentor” gets a bit overused myself. (Mentors are great, don’t get me wrong, but I think the term is sometimes used when it isn’t really warranted.)

        Reply ↓
        1. linger*

          Nothing wrong with back-formations, we use them all the time without being aware of them. E.g. “edit” is historically a back-formation from “editor”. As native speakers, we do not carry around any reliable word histories in our heads, and any connections we do make between existing words are about as likely to be entirely fictitious folk-etymology based on personal feelings as they are to be historically accurate. Nevertheless, the false connections have their function too; they still help to organise your lexicon.
          As it happens, mentor is not a back-formation; it is the original Greek form. If you connect it to other words with a ment morph, that’s up to you.
          Ultimately, you can hate a word, but it’s really for little other reason than that you hate it (or the people you last heard using it).

          Reply ↓
          1. linger*

            … Ah, you mean <i<mentee is a back-formation from mentor. True, though see above, that’s not in itself a reason to hate it.

            Reply ↓
      2. A Good Egg*

        This is a fair point. Language evolves. Look at good vs well and less vs. fewer. Words come in and out of fashion. However, I don’t have to like all the changes.

        Reply ↓
    7. A Book about Metals*

      Did you notice how this started to shift once the Mentos candy started getting very popular? I don’t think that’s by accident

      Reply ↓
    8. Strive to Excel*

      Protege, to me, implies that you have a senior person training up a specific individual as their star student/replacement/showpiece. Mentor/mentee implies a teaching relationship, but one that is less exclusive and formal.

      Reply ↓
    9. Hyaline*

      I’m not sure they mean quite the same thing–mentee implies a purely mentorship relationship, while protege literally means “protected.” The relationship feels less formalized with protege than with mentee. I’ve absolutely seen more negative uses, too, used in more of the sense of a perhaps unfairly favored junior employee, a nepo baby-by-association, or a sort of lapdog. It doesn’t have to have these connotations, but I think the term is broader and less focused than mentee. Which I don’t love as a word, FWIW, but the meaning is more precise.

      Reply ↓
    11. Head Sheep Counter*

      More seriously I don’t like the word because it seems made up. I don’t know that it is. But like kidlet, littles and nibblins it is irksome.

      Reply ↓
      1. Rose is a rose is a rose*

        All words are made up, by someone at some point in time. Nibling is a perfectly cromulent word, and quite useful.

        Reply ↓
    12. Silly Mentee*

      I am over here giggling at boss/bossee, teacher/teacheree, coach/coachee…parent/parentee…

      It’s the -tor/-tee thing but even then there are other choices.
      Captor/captive, predator/prey, denigrator/denigrated

      mentor/mentive
      mentor/mentey?
      mentor/mented??

      Reply ↓
      1. linger*

        (Latinate) base verb:agent -or:patient -ee is a reasonable analogy to use: compare abduct(or/ee), address(ee), advis(e)(or/ee), appoint(ee) … but it’s not a perfect one by any means. Partly because English is not Latin (and has other competing verb base forms), partly because some verb meanings make one of the derivatives practically impossible.
        E.g. accelerator, actor, calculator and many others have no patient equivalent;
        ambassador, ancestor have no corresponding verb (and so no derived patient form);
        amputee doesn’t have the same formal connection to its verb;
        committee is currently used in the meaning of a group agent rather than a patient (because the focus of meaning has shifted from the task to the people).
        Where mentee is interesting is that it’s formed directly from the (functional) agent mentor, with no corresponding base verb in use. However, there is an unrelated (French-derived) morph -ment with a meaning element of “mind” which is similar to the “care for” meaning element of mentor, and there are other (historically unrelated) Latinate verbs ending in -ment that do follow the formal pattern, e.g. torment(or/ee). So there are still enough parallels of both meaning and form to draw on in our word network.

        Reply ↓
        1. allathian*

          I’ve also seen the pairing mentor/actor, which implies that the mentor gives advice and the actor does something with it, and that the actor is the active partner of the relationship. Unlike protege, where the mentor is the active party.

          Reply ↓
    14. Karstmama*

      Nursing uses ‘Preceptor/Preceptee’ a lot. I’m fine with that. To me, protégé is more like My Fair Lady, like being picked up out of the slum and molded into something acceptable.

      Reply ↓
  46. Sulcata Turtle*

    Any state or university employees out there? I just started a new job in academia (staff doing IT, not faculty). We are required to select a retirement option, either SERS or TIAA. SERS is the pension plan (guaranteed payments once you’re vested), but it requires 10 years of service and the retirement age is 67, and the required contribution is 8.25% per month. TIAA is basically a 401K. It does not have a pension, but only requires 5% input and employer matches 10%.

    Honestly, I’m not planning to stay here for 10 years, or even 5! I just want 2 or 3 years of a break from start ups, then I’m leaving again. I don’t think the pension makes any sense for me because of that. What do you all suggest?

    Reply ↓
    1. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Sounds very similar to my university options. I also went with the 401k because I didn’t want to tie myself to anything where I was stuck for a long time.

      Reply ↓
    2. M*

      do the 401k alternative, 10% match would be great for even just 2 or 3 years. If something changes and you think the long term is in your future you can always adjust (usually).

      Reply ↓
    3. Thoughts?*

      Have lots of family and friends who used TIAAA and benefited greatly (and almost all were originally “I’m not going to be here for years” folks who—surprise surprise, were!)

      Reply ↓
    4. UnCivilServant*

      If you need a deciding factor, investigate whether the ERS fund is fully funded. A lot of them have been raided by the respective legislatures and are full of IOUs, meaning they might not be able to actually pay out.

      Reply ↓
    5. Hard of hearing*

      If you do not plan to stay for at least 10 years, go with the TIAA (401(b) which is similar to a traditional 401(k)).

      Reply ↓
    6. Cynthia*

      At my university, if you opt for the pension and leave within a certain amount of time (maybe five years?) you’re cashed out of the pension fund and you take the investment with you the same as if you had chosen the 401k instead. Sounds like your 401k is the better option anyhow, but double check what happens if you leave before vesting in the pension, just in case

      Reply ↓
    7. Indolent Libertine*

      Definitely the 401k, the employer match is free money that you won’t get any other way and all the growth on the match contributions is also tax free. That sounds like the employer will match whatever you put in up to 10% of your salary, so if you can afford to contribute 10% then absolutely do it. If, say, your salary is $100K, if you contribute $10K your employer will add another $10K. If you’re there for 3 years that’s $30,000 you would otherwise not have had, plus all the untaxed growth on that money from now until the day you need to withdraw it.

      Reply ↓
  47. Unpaid Onboarding Prior to Start?*

    I just accepted a job offer — they’re asking me to come in prior to my start date to complete onboarding paperwork (shortly before the start date, so during my two weeks’ notice at my current job). I understand this to be unpaid time and am trying to work around my current work schedule but, you know, it’s tough. Weird? Worse than weird? Totally normal and I’m the weird one?

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If its an hour of doing I-9, W-4, security acknowledgement, etc. then I think that’s pretty normal for a professional position. If it’s a half day, then I’d call it weird.

      Reply ↓
      1. Antilles*

        It’s normal to get such paperwork ahead of time, but I’ve never had to actually come in person ahead of time to fill them out. I’ve always just gotten some PDFs to email back, a link to their website to fill out electronically, or been asked to simply print them out and bring with me on Day 1.

        Reply ↓
        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          I’ve done it in-person half the time (mostly pre-Covid), especially if they had to take my picture for a badge.

          Reply ↓
    2. The Accidental Tourist*

      I’ve never been asked to come in, but this new job they sent me a BUNCH of forms and emails before I started (so much that I asked about it here) and did ask for some to be submitted complete on day one. I guess if it’s just one day I’d make it work but I’d be annoyed and would definitely ask if they’re sure I can’t do it on my own from home.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        Yeah, I’m used to being sent paperwork in advance, but I do think it’s a bit weird that they’re making you come in. I get it if there’s some kind of screening involved or something else it might help for them to get rolling on so you don’t need to wait until that’s completed before being able to do some important function of your job. But if being able to come in early’s really an obstacle, I feel like you ought to be able to say that and have them accept they’re just going to have to wait until your first day.

        Reply ↓
    3. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Just say that you’d be happy to, but you are working out your notice period for your previous employer so you won’t be able to come in. Ask about doing it online, or on your first day.
      IMO this should 100% be paid time. My opinion is “if my employer is requiring it, they need to pay me for it.” – so all meetings, paperwork, etc I expect to be paid for.

      Reply ↓
    4. appo*

      This is normal, all of those forms need to clear before you can actually be on their payroll. It shouldn’t take long but I think you can reasonably ask for some schedule accommodation

      Reply ↓
      1. Piper*

        Do you know if they can simply do it all electronically? There are a number of good, e-signature vendors out there (DocuSign, etc.) And many places have a secure website for people to upload proof of eligibility to work (talking about U.S. Form I-9).

        Timing wise, it could well be that they can’t have an employee’s computer and other things set up until at least some (or all) on-boarding has happened.

        Reply ↓
        1. Piper*

          Adding, that I’d be wary of giving them a “no”. They can have very legitimate reasons for needing this done before your official start date. Is the convenience of your current job more important than completing initial set-up for the new job?

          And if, for example, your new position is one where you would work as an employee of an agency assigned to work at one on their clients, then having you do the on-boarding before your first official start (and beginning of being paid) is standard in the U.S. based on my experience.

          Reply ↓
      2. Roland*

        Every job I started before covid had me do I9 onsite on the first day. Then during covid there were rule changes to do I9 online and places started doing it early, but at least electronically – early AND onsite seems really silly and unnecessary.

        Reply ↓
  48. Ellis Bell*

    How can you quickly suss out the culture of a potential new job; what would you ask? I’ve got a big interview coming up, and as is common with teaching interviews (in the UK at least), the job gets offered to you on the day of the interview and you’re expected to be ready to accept or decline right away. So, it’s an all day event with the other candidates; there’s a teaching demonstration you need to have have prepared that you do with some of their students, coffee, meeting the department you’d work with, observation of some teaching in your subject, tour of facilities, lunch, and then a panel interview. Depending on how you do in your teaching demonstration, you might not be asked to stay for the afternoon interview. So, shortlisting happens throughout the day and you’ll know if you’ve got an offer (subject to references) around about mid afternoon. It’s a lot more money, and a good direction for my career, but I actually love the culture of where I am and would stay if there was room for progression. I’m happy to wait for a better offer if I’m not impressed. What kind of questions would you ask a potential employer?

    Reply ↓
    1. The Accidental Tourist*

      Well … what about the culture where you are do you particularly like? I feel like that covers a lot of ground. Can you do some back channeling via social media to ask current and former contacts about those things? Ask the managers and then separately ask staff who didn’t hear what the managers said.

      Reply ↓
      1. Ellis Bell*

        Great point. It’s a really kind school where we speak gently to the students and have zero tolerance for bullies and anyone being a miseryguts. People help each other out, and cheer each other up. We have a ton of pastoral staff who work with our families and do anything to help, from picking up students who can’t get to school, to providing furniture for struggling families. We have the best SEND department I’ve ever seen, where students know how to ask for help and special accommodations.

        Reply ↓
        2. Mid*

          I’d ask about the school’s retention rates of staff (how long people stay on average and/or why this role is currently open), their SEND department policies/structure/utilization, their discipline policy and practices, what their community involvement/engagement is like, and what support resources they have for students and families.

          Reply ↓
    2. RagingADHD*

      I keep a list of yellow flags / points of potential concern while I’m applying or interviewing, and ask about them – glassdoor reviews, odd responses from panelists, or clusters of questions from interviewers that show they are screening for culture issues in a way that might indicate ongoing problems.

      For a glaring example, in one interview I was asked three or four times for “tell me about a time” stories related to working with difficult people and managing conflict with managers or between team members. When they asked me for my questions, I pointed this out as an unusual degree of focus and asked if it reflected current issues on the team.

      Their mouths said “Oh, no, not at all,” but their body language said “yes, completely, and we were really hoping you wouldn’t notice that.”

      In another interview, I brought up the repeated insistence that my role would support execs who were working 14 hours a day, six days a week (as a badge of honor, apparently). I asked whether that was the expectation of workload / working hours for this role, since it was not reflected in the job description or frankly, the pay.

      This time it was “Well…..”

      So I think it’s important to go in with healthy skepticism and take a lot of notes.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hard of hearing*

      Carefully watch how people work together. Do you see people chatting in the halls or is everyone busy working with not talking? Is everyone behind closed doors all day? Simple things like seeing if people hold doors open for each other or smile and acknowledge people they pass tell you a lot about culture.

      Reply ↓
  49. Wanderer*

    To the other escapees from toxic workplaces: How long did it take for you to leave the old place behind?
    My last job turned out to be a bad place. I was managing a small team in a small-ish non-profit and leadership as well as higher management were… incredible. Their main tactic to appeal to the board was to always make big promised, than overwork the staff and bully every critical voice in line.
    For me, it simply meant more mid- and longterm projects than me and my team could handle while still getting the day-to-day business done. Objections and proposals to either downgrade our projects or increase the work hours – we were all parttimers we’re at best ignored and at worst would get me yelled at by my grandboss.
    One might wonder if I was the problem – I certainly did – but in retrospect there is evidence to the contrairy.
    Some examples:
    – the manager of an adjacent non-profit told me shortly before I quit: “We see what you have to deal with and me and my coworkers are impressed that you still tough it out.”
    – the manager of another department we worked closely with, who reported directly to the director, commented “everyone in their right mind must see this isn’t feasable” after we discussed my latest Orders
    – not one but two other departments quit almost down to the last woman / man after grandboss “talked” to them about efficency and their workload.

    Well, it has been a couple of months and the situation is way more present in my mind than it should be. I still have ti remind myself that obviously, the problem lay with my bosses, though I think did not always handle myself well.
    Back to my initial question: How long did it take for you to mental leave the old place?

    Reply ↓
    1. The Accidental Tourist*

      It’s been a month and a half and I’m still pretty deep in the mindset of my last job: everything is a crisis but nothing really matters and there’s NO money and no time to do anything right. Gonna be rough to crawl out, I wish I could have taken more time off between jobs.

      Reply ↓
    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Why do you think the situation should be forgotten so quick? You’re not a robot

      One job did take me months to get over, because a lot of the slights were personal and there was no justice/logic to decisions at the end, so they sort of hurt my brain. I think age/experience also played a part, since I was younger and many of the events there were “firsts” for me so were sort of shocking

      On the flip side, I forgot about the last job I left in like five minutes, since I wasn’t leaving with a litany of grievances/wrongs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Wanderer*

        Yeah, well, I don’t know. It’s been months and it ist still so very present with me.
        But you are right. It was my first position as a manager and I was very enthusiastic about it.

        Maybe there was too much other stuff going on for me to properly process it yet.

        Reply ↓
    3. Dr. Anonymous.*

      I still think about my residency faculty and I’ve been in practice for 12 years. But it’s less and less and I can stop myself now and see that it’s not serving me. I just had a talk with myself about it LAST NIGHT and praised myself for becoming very good at what I do and reminding myself no one in the program is still thinking about ME.

      You left. You WON. You had the strength to stick it out in insane circumstances and also the strength to get the heck out. I like to look around my life now and see what’s good or great and what I could make even better. Onward and upward and if you sometimes look back to see where you’ve been, make sure you survey the journey since then and take a moment to decide what you’d like in your future. Your past isn’t you. It’s just where you’ve been.

      Reply ↓
    4. Aggretsuko*

      I don’t think I’ll ever mentally leave the old place entirely, to be honest with you. But I had to put up with bad things for over ten years before I could finally find a way out.

      Reply ↓
    6. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      It took a year, or just under, for it to stop being really present in my life. But every day was a little better!

      Reply ↓
    7. cncx*

      It hasn’t been linear. I am three months out and Okay but still have bad days. Like I have intellectualized that I am out of the Bad Place and my anxiety is essentially under control but a coworker triggered me the other day acting like my former coworker and I was right back there.

      The last time I had a bad job it took a couple years to feel totally in control and not reactive. I am giving myself grace for about six months.

      Reply ↓
    9. a trans person*

      It’s been more than five years since I was forced out of a very high paying and otherwise fun job due to transphobic discrimination. I don’t ever expect to be “over” it, but the rage only flares up every six months or so now. (Rage about that job, I mean. I’m pretty much full-time rage these days.)

      Reply ↓
    10. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      This would be a great question for ‘I WORKED ON A HELLMOUTH’ to weigh in on, unless they are busy writing a book about their experiences- wouldn’t want to interrupt that!

      Reply ↓
    11. Things Get Better*

      I’ve found that it gets better with time, especially if you can find a way to talk about it in therapy, but some thinking patterns stick with you long term. They might resurface at times when you’re under pressure and you revert to negative reactions to workplace experiences and find yourself ruminating over bad memories. Something that helps me a lot is reading books and blogs about positive, constructive management, and looking for opportunities to use those techniques to make my current employment situation even more amazing than it already is. Taking positive action to succeed sort of neutralizes some of the sting from things that happened in the past and helps me feel more in control over what happens next. Another strategy I used was writing: I spent three or four days writing down the entire series of events that I experienced before leaving the toxic job and afterwards I felt like I’d put down a 10-ton weight. The intrusive thoughts stopped taking up space in my head and I suddenly had room to step into the new role 100%. I hope these suggestions are helpful, wishing you luck in the journey.

      Reply ↓
  50. Pine Tree*

    Just venting – Hiring managers – please, please, please do not insist on talking to an applicant’s current supervisor unless you are really serious about hiring them! I mean, ideally it would be great if you waited to ask for all references until you are serious, but especially a current supervisory.

    I had a great interview 1.5 weeks ago (went well but I know not to get too excited). They said they wanted to move somewhat quickly. Then earlier this week they asked to contact my references, and said one of them definitely had to be my current supervisor. My references are all great, and I know my current supervisor will give me a good reference, but it’s always risky putting the current supervisor down.

    So I let all of my references know that they will be contacted. And then….crickets all week! I’m getting worried that I alerted my current supervisor that I’m seriously looking, and now they might not even call them.

    I really wish that I had said they can call everyone else, and then please wait for current supervisor until an offer is absolutely contingent just upon supervisor not saying I’m horrible.

    So, if you are in a position to hire people, for goodness sake, please think about the implications of what you are doing when you willy nilly ask for references and then potentially ghost references and applicants!

    /end rant

    Reply ↓
    1. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      I was hot in the running for a position with a state agency that handles unemployment insurance claim appeals, and they *insisted* on current supervisor.

      BANANAS! None too self-aware there.

      Reply ↓
    2. Spacewoman Spiff*

      Yeah, this is a horrible practice. If it happens to you again, I’d ask them if you can provide your references from previous jobs and provide your current supervisor only after a verbal offer. I did this once and they were willing, and gave me the formal written offer only after speaking w/ my supervisor. I think any reasonable person would understand the request. I was still incredibly anxious bringing it to my then-current supervisor with just a verbal offer, but at least I knew the new company was serious and that the offer was good enough for me to accept.

      I’m sorry they’ve left you hanging now. Fingers crossed for good news soon!

      Reply ↓
    3. Bast*

      Some hiring managers are so clueless. I’ve worked in jobs where if they even suspected you were looking, you got fired. Something as innocent as maintaining a Linked In page after you were hired could be construed that you were “still looking” even if you hadn’t updated it in 10 years.

      Reply ↓
    4. LaminarFlow*

      To avoid the anxiety of this situation in the future, provide references who aren’t your current manager when you are actively interviewing. Most companies and hiring managers understand that candidates don’t want to tip-off their job search to their current workplace. With some application systems, candidates can indicate “this is my current workplace” which helps to flag it for the person who will be contacting references.

      The only exception to this is if the role you are interviewing for is an internal role, as you would notify your manager that you are interviewing for it.

      And, I seriously doubt that any of your references are annoyed with you for a hiring manager not contacting the for a reference within the specified timeframe.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pine Tree*

        I did provide 4 references that were not my current supervisor, including a previous supervisor. But they insisted on my current supervisor….I’ll never do that again. In my 20 year career, the only other times I’ve been asked for a current supervisor, I was offered the job within 24hrs.

        I’m only mildly annoyed about alerting the other 4 that they would be contacted (mainly because I really like them all, and some of them have even pinged me saying they haven’t heard from the reference checker and asking me what’s happening, because they care about me!), but it’s the fact that they insisted that my current supervisor be called, and then I had to give him the heads up, that really peeves me. I’m a federal contractor, and I know this contract is on thin ice. I’m sure I’m now first on the chopping block within my group.

        Reply ↓
  51. At My Wits End*

    I have been in my role for a year. I had high hopes for the job, but over the past year, its gone from bad to worse. To make a long story short – I work for an internal client who resembles a cartoon villain – lies, gaslights, constantly changes their mind, and is passive aggressive. Its truly a no win situation.

    Multiple people have told me i have the worst job in the company and I believe it. Others who have had my role were either fired, or transferred to another team to get away from them.

    On top of this, we found recently that our team is being disbanded. No word on if we get to keep our jobs or if we will be moved to the new team. The company is small, so its highly unlikely that I could find a different internal role.

    My mental and physical health has suffered so much since beginning this job. My partner is begging me to quit. I am so burned out and would love to take a few months off to get myself lined out – but I am struggling to actually quit. We have savings and we live frugally by design, but its still hard to allow myself to walk away. Part of it is pride and not wanting my internal client to feel like they got the best of me and forced me to walk away. I am really struggling.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Oh, please please please mentally reframe that last thought.

      If you quit, your internal client isn’t going to “win” anything. They are going to lose. They are going to be responsible for the company no longer being able to do your job, they are going to be responsible for not being able to do THEIR job because they won’t have your outputs.

      Reply ↓
      1. At My Wits End*

        Thank you for saying this – I really needed to hear this. My partner tells me all the time that the company/client has much more to lose than I do.

        Reply ↓
        1. Hlao-roo*

          I’ll add on to the reframe advice–how do you win? You win by living your best life. Would your life be better if you quit this job? If yes, then quitting in the right move for you, and don’t give two figs about your (soon-to-be-former?) internal client.

          Reply ↓
          1. At My Wits End*

            Thank you. My life would be better without these people (and company in general) in my life, without question.

            Reply ↓
    2. Wanderer*

      May I appeal to your pride?
      You are good at your job and you care about it.
      That is why you held out for one year with the worst job in you company.
      Put your skills to use. Go someplace where your talent can shine and don’t waste it on an unpleasable jerk.

      Reply ↓
      1. At My Wits End*

        Thank you for your kind words. That means more to me than you know. You’re right. I am so tired of wasting my time, energy and talents on people that dont appreciate me.

        Reply ↓
        1. Wanderer*

          Yeah, I’ve been there.
          Look ahead, give yourself time to recollect.
          Your partner is right. No job is worth sacrificing your health.

          Reply ↓
    3. Annie G*

      Living well is the best revenge, so quit and rejoice every day that you no longer work there! Also, if you quit, your nemesis hasn’t “won”—they’re winning right now because they’re playing a different game (with different goals and different rules) than you are. You don’t want to win the rat race!

      Reply ↓
    4. Dr. Anonymous.*

      If winning for them is driving away the people who are trying to help them, let them win. That is a fine example of, “Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.” It doesn’t even matter if they never, ever see the light and feel victorious about your departure until they day they all die.

      What you have on the line in terms of your peace and sanity are much more worthwhile prizes. Be sure to skip out the door on your last day.

      Reply ↓
  52. I AM a Lawyer*

    I’m relatively new to management, and I’ve noticed an uptick in employees asking for promotions pretty early into their tenure or early into a position they were promoted into (less than a year). Is this common? We’re not super small, but are not large enough to have vacancies to promote a significant number of people into so it’s been difficult, though we try our best to give people a path toward growth in the organization. Turnover is what it is, but I feel like the expectation to be promoted so soon isn’t necessarily reasonable, but I could be wrong so doing a check here.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Are they asking for new titles & more responsibility, or just for more money? I’d try to separate those two if possible. Unless your firm has rigid pay levels for junior associate, senior associate, etc…

      Reply ↓
      2. I AM a Lawyer*

        Good question. They’re asking for new titles and more responsibility. They all certainly also want more money and that might be driving a good amount of it (we’re a non-profit and our pay is fair but not top of the market. We give raises every year and bonuses most years), but they usually express that they want more responsibility, a higher title, to move toward being in management, etc.

        Reply ↓
      3. Blue Pen*

        Also, are they actually asking for a promotion or what would be considered the path to promotion in the company.

        Reply ↓
    2. Parenthesis Guy*

      Depends on their performance. If they’re killing it in their current role, I don’t think it’s unreasonable. However, most people aren’t killing it, especially if they’ve just been promoted into a role. If so, it suggests a lack of awareness and judgement about their true performance.

      Reply ↓
      1. I AM a Lawyer*

        Thank you! A lot of them are doing well, so they’re not totally coming out of left field, but it’s not to the point of forcing our hand, if that makes sense.

        Reply ↓
        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          Makes a lot of sense.

          I think you just need to explain to them what you expect from them to move to the next level. If you can give them some stretch goals that’s also a good thing.

          Reply ↓
    3. Lady Dedlock*

      When I’ve done this, it’s because the role I was hired into turned out to be more junior than I expected. Is it possible something like that is going on, based on the way roles are framed during the hiring process?

      Reply ↓
  53. Mimmy*

    Fellow readers, please help me talk through some job or career change ideas in light of the current environment. The upshot: I do not want to leave the world of disability and accessibility, and I want a situation where my strengths will shine through.

    I’ve been at my job for 8 years and have been looking for a change for a few years now. Recent changes at my current job have made me more anxious to leave. I work in a vocational rehabilitation program for people who are blind or visually impaired. I have been trying to get into postsecondary disability / accessibility services but have had no luck, likely because of the competitive nature of that field and my less-than-stellar interview skills (yes, I know I need to practice). I’ve also been thinking of doing freelancing or consulting (which I asked about last year) but have been wary because what I’m interested in requires a lot of technical skills I don’t have and I don’t have steady employment experience to support my qualifications.

    As has been my lifelong pattern, I am constantly trying to figure out what type of work I will be most successful at. I identify as neurodivergent and one of the things I’ve been struggling with at work lately is my executive function skills. This has made me question what I can and can’t handle. I have come with and dismissed so many cool ideas :(

    What I know I’ve done well with:
    – Establishing a rapport with the students I work with – I work best when I’m 1:1 and I have a meaningful conversation with the student.
    – Analyzing / evaluating (just need a lot of focus time)
    – Wide-ranging knowledge related to disabilities and accessibility
    – I also enjoy doing small group presentations, but my classroom management skills aren’t great (and I’m not interested in developing this).

    Where I’m struggling
    – I tend to need more guidance than the average person; I ask a lot of questions and sometimes am not clear on what’s expected of me.
    – Juggling multiple priorities, so doing any sort of case management would be challenging.
    – Following discussions either in person or online – I use closed captions and an assistive listening device but that’s not always effective

    ^^ There’s a lot more to these lists, but I don’t want to turn this into a novel :)

    I’ve been tempted to go a more concrete, technical route, like evaluating college course materials for accessibility or teaching assistive technology; I am learning, but I’d still have a steep learning curve. I also worry about the current climate with all of the funding cuts, DEI bans, and layoffs at the federal level.

    Always appreciate your insights!

    Reply ↓
    2. RagingADHD*

      What about private sector accessibility / accommodations as part of corporate HR? Regardless of the political environment around DEI advocacy or school funding, companies still have employees who need adaptive gear and systems, and large companies devote significant resources to it.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hard of hearing*

      Just a thought, but you you might want to explore volunteering in this area first to see if it is a good fit and to refine your skills.

      Reply ↓
    4. Melody Powers*

      I’m not sure where you were working before so maybe this isn’t actually a change, but I wonder if you could work for some kind of medical facility that also offers vocational services. I work at a mental health clinic and we have an employment counselor to help clients navigate job applications and things like that. There may be similar roles in other facilities.

      Reply ↓
    5. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Tough time due to the federal assault on fundamental rights, including ones related to disability, so first some sympathy for the challenges in this sector.

      Have you considered the transportation sector? Positions related to access include mobility manager and other things that might take advantage of your knowledge. I’m not sure how much the challenges to follow discussions might be a factor here and how much it would involve the case management juggling you say isn’t a strength, so someone who knows more about it than me might weigh in. Your local or regional transit agency and then nonprofits with contracts to provide those services are possibilities.

      If you don’t like classroom management then the teaching route doesn’t sound like a fit. I’d cross that off to simplify the set of things you’re considering.

      Continuing to learn about assistive technology seems like something that fits with your current job and also might set you up for a role in an agency or firm that helps small organizations meet ADA requirements for employees and clients.

      Absolutely don’t try to start a consulting or freelance thing. Your list of challenges is pretty much the list of things you’d need to be good at to go out, find clients, negotiate contracts with them, track and report on deliverables, discuss problems with them, and other elements of starting and running a small business.

      Reply ↓
  54. Invisible fish*

    I just want praise for not making the department printer a hill to die on. I was soooooo close to putting up a sign telling people to use the expensive printer ink to make a good, clear original and then make copies on the copier machine… then crusading about it via email ….

    So I thought back to all the stories about hills to die on, and I reflected ….
    Why would I do this to myself? Why would I bring that stress into my life?

    Back to minding my own business!

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I always try to do these things based on money.

      Your salary pro-rated across the time you’d spend making the sign, emailing people, etc. would probably pay for years of toner.

      Reply ↓
    3. Antilles*

      Why would that even be a hill to die on? Are you paying for the office printer ink out of your own pocket? If so, why are you paying for it rather than it being a business expense from the company?
      Also, do people even know about the cost difference? Until this exact thread, I have literally never thought about whether it would be cheaper to print 1 copy, grab it from the machine, then copy the other 9 rather than simply printing 10 copies directly when I’m clicking Print in Word/PDF/etc. I’m still not convinced it is (it’s a combined copier/printer/scanner, how in the world would one mode be meaningfully cheaper than the other?), but I can certainly assure you I would have been with your co-workers just blindly using the print 10 copies button.

      Reply ↓
        1. Antilles*

          Ah that makes sense. I was unconsciously assuming something more like a regular office where there’s not much competition for the printer and they can often go quiet for minutes or even hours at a time.

          Reply ↓
  55. Any Given Fergus*

    My company notified me last month that I would be getting laid off at the beginning of May. With everything going on in the US right now, I’ve been nervously preparing for a long period of unemployment. Except I just got a new job! Great! The downside is it’s a more junior role and comes with a pretty significant pay cut. However, it is still more than enough to pay my bills which means I won’t have to touch my severance, I can just tuck that away into savings. I figure I can stay in this role for a year or two, learn about my new company’s processes, establish a good network, and start moving up the ranks again. But I still find myself second guessing my decision to take this role instead of continuing to search for a higher level role. Has anyone been in a similar situation? Did taking a more junior role work out for you?

    Reply ↓
      1. Hard of hearing*

        Agreed. It is always easier to find a job when you have a job! Congratulations on finding something and good for you to be able to sock away your severance pay.

        Reply ↓
      2. EMP*

        this

        And, if this job is a mental break that you need right now, there’s nothing wrong with sitting back for a few months before deciding to keep searching or not

        Reply ↓
    2. My Brain is Exploding*

      One of the kids did this and the junior role was SO MUCH LESS STRESSFUL. They are enjoying the decompression time and beginning to work their way up again.

      Reply ↓
  56. Nonprofit ED*

    Does anyone have any suggestions for good data analysis software for people with little to no experience? I have a lot of data to review which is in Excel. I am pretty good with Excel and their data analysis provides some good information but not everything I need. I have been trying to find something that would not be too hard to learn but I could upload the Excel spreadsheets and see what information it provides. I tried Tableau but that has a learning curve. I am evaluating a program that focuses on hospital utilization and length of time between hospitalizations. Also looking at other factors liked did the person see their doctor before they went back to the hospital, length of time between seeing their doctor and the re-hospitalization etc.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      There are lighter-weight products than Tableau. Amazon QuickSite, for example. You may be able to get a free or very-low-cost license since you work for a nonprofit.

      Reply ↓
    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Is the data/math already completely worked? Meaning, is the “gap between hospital stays” and “gap between doctor visit and hospital stay, if doctor visited or not” already calculated, or are you looking to upload raw data of visits/stays and for the software to calculate it?

      IME as a data analyst I did that math in SQL and then put that code into Tableau or PowerBI.

      Not sure there is a software that does the thinking for you and just makes charts. I already see multiple groups here that I would code in at my former jobs and separate them onto multiple tabs in PowerBI or Tableau but that math/work would be in SQL or another coding/query language first

      I mean, you need some math to find gaps in days between events, then need to give meaning to them and isolate groups that are problematic or not. Maybe a tab with 2+ hospitalizations and <2 doctor visits. Or multiple visits of any kind. And then add in more data to quantify why these are problems (costs? Not following doctor orders? SPecific diseases? Can any of the costs be controlled or is it the cost of doing business?). Then maybe another set of tabs of what services these people use/overuse/underuse and the associated costs + labor hours. If labor is the issue.

      You got my data brain working. I think you're trying to simplify this too much, like it doesn't require skill. There is a reason people pay hundreds of thousands for enterprise software or palantir

      Reply ↓
      1. Nonprofit ED*

        It is different types of data. Some of the math is done i.e., number of days between hospitalizations. Other data is not such as we have a date for hospitalization and a date for follow up appointment scheduled. We have “Yes” or “No” answers for if an appointment was kept or not did the person have an appointment scheduled before they were re-hospitalized. With Excel you can just hit the “analyze” button and it shows you different things mostly easy stuff which I get. I was wonder if there were other tools that I could play around with and see what it tells me without but isn’t hard to learn. I’m not trying simplify what is in the data. I am trying to find a program that isn’t hard to learn to I can try using something other than excel. I have large amounts of data I want review that span the course of 10 years.

        Reply ↓
        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          Sorry I can’t help! I can’t think of any program that is super easy. Even the “click and drag” programs like Tableau have issues/errors. I have spent 2-3 hours trying to figure out basic errors in powerbi, and that’s an easy program, not a coding language. And you need to have parameters about what you want to measure anyways, like “cost waste per patient on preventable visits” for example, but you’d need to set the parameters first, on what you consider avg./acceptable cost per patient and what you consider “unecessary,” using this example. Even Palantir AI won’t just tell you that

          Reply ↓
    3. Strive to Excel*

      Unfortunately you’ve named two of the most common industry standard programs for data analysis already. PowerBI is another common one, but if you’re having a hard time with Tableau I doubt you’ll find PowerBi more intuitive. PowerQuery is also native to Excel; it’s more of a data manipulation & cleaning software than a data visualization one, but you might find it helpful. Oz du Soleil on YouTube has some good PQ tutorials available. Don’t be put off by the janky thumbnails; dude knows his stuff.

      One thing that might be helpful is doing all your data cleaning in Excel first, so that once you hit Tableau/your visualization software of choice you have to do less work there.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nonprofit ED*

        Thanks for the suggestions. I am trying to clean up the data in Excel. One issue is that for someone reason some dates are downloaded as text and not numbers. I am not sure why the developer did it that way but it is making clean up hard. I found this out because I wanted to convert birthdates to age and Excel would not do it because the date format was showing as text instead of numbers. I’m trying to learn Tableau more but I have a lot on my plate so it is hard to make time to go through the tutorials. I was hoping to find something that might be easier for me to learn.

        Reply ↓
        1. Another Kristin*

          I’m a fan of PowerBI myself, but no matter what tool you use there will be a learning curve. Excel Pivot Tables and Pivot Charts can be pretty useful and will leverage your Excel skills as well.

          IME, storing dates in text format should be illegal.

          Reply ↓
        2. Strive to Excel*

          Blaaagh.

          Professional recommendation: when you’re cleaning your dates, in addition to giving yourself a full date column, give yourself month, day, and year columns. Much easier to parse later.

          Reply ↓
        3. I Heart Spreadsheets*

          There are several solutions to clean up this issue en masse (the VALUE function for starters.) Definitely google it.

          Reply ↓
    4. miel*

      Minitab does statistical analysis and does a pretty good job of walking you through it, in my opinion. I think the license is expensive, but there is a 2 week free trial.

      I also wonder if you could find a volunteer to help with data analysis. Maybe a professional or student in engineering, data science, statistics, or similar would be interested? That might be more work, though!

      Reply ↓
      1. Nonprofit ED*

        I have looked at the Minitab website. I was thinking about doing the trial just to see if I could figure it out. Definitely looking into getting a student intern to help me but in the past students have said they know programs better than they actually do and it hasn’t worked out well. I am hoping to find an intern that is good with statistics. Thanks!

        Reply ↓
    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      How good are you with Pivot Tables and the like? Excel does have a lot of power that isn’t well known.

      I think I’d stick with Tableau in your shoes, but I’d try to use ChatGPT or another AI to help me figure out how to do things. Otherwise, I’d look into taking a data analytics course.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nonprofit ED*

        Very little experience with Pivot Tables. I never thought about using ChatGPT to help me. Definitely don’t have time to take a data analytics course. I run a small nonprofit and non of my staff have the skills needed to take this on but using an outside evaluation expert could be very expensive!

        Reply ↓
        1. Parenthesis Guy*

          Got it. Based on this answer and your answers above, Quicksight, Tableau and PowerBI aren’t where you want to start. You want to take a short course teaching Intermediate and Advanced Excel. ChatGPT is your friend here also.

          Reply ↓
          1. Nonprofit ED*

            Thanks! I will look into short course teaching Intermedia and Advanced Excel. That might help me get a little futher than I am not with what I already know how to do in Excel. I think I am intermediate level now.

            Reply ↓
          2. Data Doug*

            +1 to this. If you aren’t using pivot tables and slicers, you have not even begun to use the analytic capacity in Excel. Start there.

            Reply ↓
        1. Nonprofit ED*

          No sensitive data. It really is primarily dates and general demographics. I have spreadsheets prepared where I have removed names and reasons for hospital admissions. I am not using anything that would tie back to a specific patient. I wont even let interns see that kind of stuff.

          Reply ↓
    6. Cimorene-turned-Morwen*

      What is your time worth, and how accurate does your analysis need to be? I ask because evaluation is much more than just the software you use. With hospital data especially there are HIPAA concerns, confounding, data cleaning, etc. It might be easier, faster, and cheaper to hire someone, like a grad student or consultant, to do this project for you. And if it’s something that might need to be repeated, you can get someone to set up Tableau, R, or Python so that you can re-run the analysis in the future.

      Reply ↓
      1. Nonprofit ED*

        We have used consultants in the past and they are very expensive. I also wasn’t happy with the overall product. The problem is when you are in healthcare everyone thinks you have money because you are tied to clinics and hospital and that is not true. I am also in California so it is even more expensive. I am definitely open to having a consultant work on this with me I just haven’t found one that has a reasonable cost so I am trying to keep moving forward as much as possible. I haven’t the best luck with Grad Students, they usually don’t know the software well enough to get things done during the time frame needed and most of them want to design the evaluation and not do the actual analysis.

        Reply ↓
        1. Cimorene-turned-Morwen*

          As someone who used to be in the same sector, I totally hear you about costs. If you’re near a university with an MPH program I’d suggest looking for an MPH or PhD student in Epidemiology or Health Sciences who needs a thesis project or practicum.

          Reply ↓
        2. Karstmama*

          I’m a Health Informatics and Information Management grad student, and what you’re talking about setting up could definitely be something for an internship. We’re learning PostgreSQL, Python, and Tableau and could totally do what you’re asking about.

          Reply ↓
    7. Nesprin*

      If you don’t have access to something like graph pad, you need a couple tutorials on R (which is the absolute field standard for statistics).

      Reply ↓
      1. Nonprofit ED*

        Never heard of graph pad. I will look into it. There are so many things out there on the web it is hard to know what is good. These are all good suggestions. Thanks!

        Reply ↓
  57. Honoria Lucasta*

    Online dating horror story incoming!
    1) I almost never get calls on my work phone, and if I do I’m usually expecting them.
    2) On Wednesday, my desk phone rang. I picked it up, and a voice said “Hi, beautiful.” I was thoroughly nonplussed, said “excuse me” and the reply came “We matched on facebook.” I don’t remember the rest of the conversation verbatim, but I did express shock that this person would call me at work and he said he didn’t realize it was my work number. I eventually got his name (which he didn’t provide at first), said “please don’t call me at work” and hung up.
    3) I immediately went to the app to block him, and he had already unmatched from me. I found the deactivated conversation and hit the button to report him for offline harassment. He had sent four invitations to dinner in the space of an hour and a half, while I was teaching and couldn’t reply!

    The question: should I do anything else? My best guess is that he googled my name and city and came up with my faculty directory page, which has my desk phone number included. It’s been two days and he hasn’t made any further attempts at contact. Some friends said I should tell my colleagues, but I’m in an academic department and it’s not like we know much about each other or transfer calls to each other. The only person who might be useful to know would be the office administrator? But it’s not like he dialed a switchboard to reach me, and if he couldn’t tell by looking at my *faculty page* that it was my work phone number, I’m not even sure he could figure out how to try to get to me by any other method. And, like I said, he unmatched right away and hasn’t tried calling since so I think he was properly embarrassed.

    Anyway, any suggestions/tips?

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      You told him not to call you, ended the call, reported him for harassment and found he’d already, on his own, unmatched you. What more do you want? Let it go.

      Reply ↓
      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        Dating app etiquette is *NEVER* to google someone’s phone number on your own. That’s why OP reacted. Generally you exchange a few messages, agree *mutually* to go off the app and then exchange numbers or socials like snapchat or insta. Skipping the “can I get your number” and just tracking down her work phone number is unhinged.

        Reply ↓
    2. Strive to Excel*

      Wat.

      No suggestions, really, unless you want to take the trouble of finding where he works and letting them know about his monumental lapse of judgement.

      Reply ↓
    3. Hlao-roo*

      Oof, I’m sorry that happened to you!

      You have the best sense of the situation (because it happened to you) and hopefully he doesn’t try to contact you again, but if you think it’s possible that this man might call again and/or show up at your workplace I think it’s worth giving your colleagues and/or office administrator a heads up. There are some past posts that have advice about dealing with workplace stalkers. I recommend reading through them so you have an action plan in case this guy escalates:

      “I think my coworker may be stalking me” from March 6, 2012

      “receiving calls from a coworker’s stalker” from March 14, 2012

      “how do I handle changing my name and job because of a stalker?” from June 19, 2018

      I’ll put links in a reply to this comment.

      Reply ↓
  58. bereaved*

    I’m the PhD student with the dead brother who posted ~1 month ago. I’m wondering if I’m overreacting to a meeting all the grad students had together this week, because to me it felt borderline hazing.

    For context: we have a body of ~30 grad students. We are supposed to have a president who is responsible for a) attending faculty meetings and b) relaying anything from the faculty that grad students need to know. Our current president has held it for two years and it has been a position full of drama (she got involved in many faculty/student disputes, to the extent I don’t think her position involved). The president also is asked to do administrative things sometimes (collect feedback about faculty candidates, plan dinner for interviewees)

    We had an all hands meeting yesterday. At the end of it, the current president announced we had to pick a new president. She had everybody who wasn’t a rising 3rd or 4th year pull their chairs out from the conference table, and told the remaining 6 students to figure it out between us. The current president started talking about how much drama with the faculty the position involves but “one of you has to do it”.

    It pretty quickly devolved into the current 4th/5th/6th years giving commentary to the group about “x person shouldn’t have to because advisor is too hard on them” or “y person, why can’t you?”. I found it to be pretty hurtful when one of the older students suggested we have to go around and state why we can’t take on more stress so the other students could decide who “deserved” it most. They all know my brother died last month (and largely have been unsupportive/insensitive. Only 2 students came by my office to ask how I was, and one texted me, and that’s it). I found the idea that we have some kind of anti-election really upsetting. I was also critiqued during and after the meeting for “not stepping up”.
    This went on for ~10 minutes at minimum, and ended when the older students suggested we “sacrifice” a rising 3rd year who wasn’t there (he had forgotten). the 3rd year was called in, he uncomfortably agreed to do it, and the meeting ended.

    In previous years, this meeting took place in May, after quals/defenses/exams. As of right now, the rising 3rd years are two/three weeks from quals. I feel like the meeting really devolved into older students taking out their stress on us. The winding up about how bad the position is, the comments about who “deserves” to have to do it, the circle of chairs of ~20 grad students around us, it was very upsetting. I honestly feel it was borderline hazing and cried afterwards in my office alone.

    There’s 4 rising 3rd years. We talked together afterwards and agreed that a) the one who got forced into it has the option to go back on it and we decided who would step up in that case and b) the president would go to faculty meetings, and the remaining 3 of us will share the admin things the president is asked to do (ie. I’m committed to organizing anything the president is asked to do for our prospective student weekend). I feel good about this resolution.

    What I’m struggling with is: was the set up of this meeting out of line, or am I too sensitive still? Should this be brought to somebody’s attention, or is this just…the way it is? I don’t want to make a big deal out of something that isn’t a big deal, and next year this meeting will NOT be run this way. Bare minimum I feel that if we had to decide amongst ourselves, the other students should have been asked to leave, and the current president should have just outlined the official duties.

    Reply ↓
    1. Tea Monk*

      I’m not a PHD student so take this with a grain of salt: what the hell is up with these people? That’s not a great way to allocate work

      Reply ↓
    2. Nesprin*

      I hope you’re hanging in there- sorry again about your loss.

      This all sounds a bit far out of what I’d consider normal for PhD programs but academia attracts some absolute weirdos. I ended up in charge of the grad student society by simple dint of volunteering- being volunteered and critiqued in the process is abnormal. I’m guessing that your dept lacks support staff – most of the listed tasks would fall on them, not on a student.

      That said, you’re going to leave this program exceedingly well trained for managing faculty politics. Since you’ve learned that your program is run by the unstable, I’d suggest keeping your head down whenever possible- don’t go to meetings that aren’t explicitly required by your advisor and don’t volunteer for things that aren’t necessary.

      Reply ↓
    3. Coffee*

      oh dear. very not normal and not good but also…PhD students academia…so I can totally see this happening…
      oof – I would have found that very stressful and very unpleasant. and I think it would have been even harder had I just been dealing with the trauma that you have been dealing with.

      my only advice is to do your best to engage only as much as necessary to survive the program. and if you end up staying in Academia vow to try and prevent this kind of crap from continuing.

      sending you well wishes and hope your quals go well!

      Reply ↓
    4. Hyaline*

      Yeah so. This is why academic departments are so dysfunctional–they often don’t graduate from this level of management, negotiation, and collaboration. This is bananacakes and ridiculous, and someone should recommend tabling this entire nonsense until there is some kind of process or policy in place for selecting this position and there’s an actual list of duties–preferably approved by someone with some authority, like the department chair, or run past a grad student org or office on your campus.

      Reply ↓
    5. Charley*

      That nuts! We have a similar position in my department and we solicit nominations and have an election. You are right to be weirded out – that sounds like a horrible process (and not a good way to get an effective leader in place.) Your colleagues are full of bees.

      Reply ↓
    6. Indolent Libertine*

      I am so sorry about your brother and your super weird and immune-to-normal-human-feelings cohort. This does kind of smack of the “eating its young” way academia can work to me, though, in the “don’t be late to the faculty meeting or you’ll wind up department chair next year” sense. Ugh. In normal human terms, hoo boy the setup of this meeting was definitely out of line, and it’s entirely reasonable for you to still be feeling raw and sensitive, and it sucks that your fellow students seem to be looking for ways to pounce on that (and any other perceived “weakness” on the part of anyone else) and exploit it to their own advantage.

      I really like the way that the four of you rising 3rd years came together and agreed to share the load. These people seem to have your back even if the rest of them only have knives out. Keep sticking together!

      Reply ↓
    7. Brevity*

      First: I am sorry about your brother. I lost a sibling when I was a child and it was *rough*.
      Second: I’m with Tea Monk: what the hell is wrong with these people?
      Third: I think what’s wrong with these people is the current president, who sounds like a total drama seeker. There was absolutely no reason to set up the meeting in such a confrontational way. No wonder she involves herself in prof-grad student issues.

      I worked in a graduate school for six years. I don’t think you personally should do this, because you have enough on your plate already; but at least one of your fellow grad students should contact the Graduate School that works with your department, lay out the situation, and ask for an ombudsman. You need a third party to sort through this bullshit and help you elect a president, then possibly point that new president to some helpful guides on How To Lead.

      Good LORD, what a lot of unnecessary drama.

      Reply ↓
  59. Anon for this*

    My company is throwing an event next week and two of the sessions include a prayer. One of them is nonsectarian, but the other is explicitly Christian. The Christian prayer is also followed by the Pledge of Allegiance.

    This is weird, right? I’m in my mid 40s and I can’t remember a time when I was asked to listen to a prayer in a professional setting. This in combination with the Pledge strikes me as wildly out of touch with current professional norms.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Sounds like the owner is pushing his brand of religion, patriotism, and politics on his employees. If this is a publicly-held company, I’d go screaming to the board of directors. This is definitely weird.

      I’ve worked for defense contractors for about 1/3 of my career. We didn’t say the pledge; we didn’t need to. Half of us were retired military, who’d sworn serious oaths, and the rest of us knew that what we were doing every single day was really important to the country – we didn’t need to put on a show about it.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for this*

        It’s a small nonprofit. The top-ranking employee helped me push back a bit this year but the board doesn’t seem very receptive…it’s possible they are more conservative than our clients at large.

        Reply ↓
      2. WFH4VR*

        I would stand up and walk out if anyone started praying out loud in a meeting. This is absolutely unacceptable/offensive/unprofessional.

        Reply ↓
    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      Very weird! And the Pledge of Allegiance? I don’t think I’ve recited that since grade school. (FTR – I am solidly GenX, so that’s decades ago.)

      Does your company have or is it going after any government contracts? Sounds performative to me.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anon for this*

        It’s a small nonprofit that isn’t going after any government funding. They’ve removed the phrase “DEI” from a couple of things but have continued everything they were doing previously and are involved in some lobbying that doesn’t support the current administration.

        Reply ↓
      2. NotSoRecentlyRetired*

        The service club I belong to says the Pledge of Allegiance at the start of each meeting, including board meetings.

        Reply ↓
    3. Head Sheep Counter*

      I suspect… you’ve got a company that appreciates the current moment in history we are at.

      It should be out of touch with current norms… but sadly…

      Reply ↓
    4. miel*

      This is weird.

      Even if you worked for a Catholic hospital or university or something, this would be weird.

      Reply ↓
    6. Anon for this*

      The current company leaders have made it clear they are NOT appreciative of our current moment in history, which makes it even weirder. The rest of the event includes panels on things like racial disparities and gender-affirming care (among many other things), so it’s not like the whole event is wall-to-wall conservative dog whistles. It’s a national organization with no particular ties to the South and the industry is not known for being conservative. Honestly, I think it’s just really poorly managed and the people at the top are not deep thinkers, so they just go along year after year with what seemed appropriate in whatever year this was instituted. I don’t have the authority to push back more than I already have, so on it goes another year!

      Reply ↓
      1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

        Alison often mentions the power of acting with a group. Are there enough people who agree with you that you could go collectively to say something like this? “These really aren’t work-related actions and they don’t reflect a welcoming culture of belonging that respects everyone’s right to their personal beliefs. We’re asking that you take them off the agenda. We could use that time to reaffirm our mission, vision and values.” (assuming that last statement is true because they aren’t already doing it somewhere else on the agenda.)

        If you’re stuck with the pledge I find the phrase “one nation under law” reassuring, although there’s less evidence these days that it’s actually true.

        Lump them together so you aren’t giving them an opening to talk about patriotism while letting go of religious discrimination, if they try to drop the prayer and keep the pledge.

        Reply ↓
    7. Always Tired*

      The Christofacism is coming from inside the house.

      It is wildly out of touch with professional norms, but is a reflection of the growing evangelical right wing that feels empowered right now because of the current political situation. I would push back and make A Thing about it, but you have to decide if that’s worth your job, and how bad that place has to get for the scales to tip.

      Reply ↓
    8. Zona the Great*

      Very weird and I personally do not perform either of those things so I’d just stand there, eyes open, head level, until they’re done.

      Reply ↓
    9. Educator*

      I have to deal with the Pledge all the time in professional settings (education and municipal government), often while on stage in front of a lot of people. I’m an atheist, and there is no way I am saying those words. I always just keep my hands at my sides, my mouth closed, and my eyes forward. If I can stay seated, I do. I’ve never gotten any flack for it, but I am also in a part of the country where the whole prayer thing would be seen as horrifying. I think quietly not participating is a perfectly valid option–when you are working within a broken system to fix it, you have to pick your battles.

      But I think this is a bit of a wake up call to look at your company as a whole–how do they treat minorities, women, and LGBTQ+ folks? How is your health insurance? Do you feel ethically aligned with the impact your work is making on the community?

      Reply ↓
  60. Not My Circus...And Yet...*

    Hey all! I am pretty confident the responses will be “move on with your life and leave this alone,” but here’s the thing:

    I had this terrible coworker. No, worse than you’re thinking: a narcissist, a bully (just to the women of course!), refused to do his job, and a literal criminal in his personal life. He has been showing up in some publications lately, where he’s presented as this easygoing visionary you should listen to. But fellow commenters, you should NOT listen to him. No one should. Not only was he literally the worst person I’ve ever worked with, the crimes he committed, and continues to commit, are among the most heinous ones a person can do.

    I really am so tempted to message the publications like “hey give this guy a Google, you probably don’t want to be promoting him” but like, I shouldn’t, right? I should just go touch grass and purge this turd from my memory? Gosh do I want to though.

    Reply ↓
    1. RagingADHD*

      I don’t see why not. Best case scenario, they do a follow up / retraction. Worst case scenario, they ignore you. If it’s publicly available information, it’s not as if he can do anything about it.

      Reply ↓
    2. A Book about Metals*

      I can’t tell if you’re exaggerating, but if he’s really continuing to commit the most heinous crimes people can do, maybe a call to the police is warranted?

      Reply ↓
      1. RagingADHD*

        Good point – OP, if you have evidence of literal crimes that he isn’t being charged with, reach out to law enforcement.

        Reply ↓
      2. Ginger Cat Lady*

        My thoughts exactly. If they are aware he continues to commit the “most heinous” crimes, why is it the magazines they want to report it to?
        If they don’t have enough evidence for the police, they don’t have enough evidence for character assassination.

        Reply ↓
    4. Kay*

      As someone who has benefited a few times from the tidbits of warnings from people – I say go for it! You don’t know what you don’t know sometimes, and the push to investigate further (with enough information so you can do so successfully) can be very helpful.

      Reply ↓
  61. Anon question*

    For the federal workers who got the buyout offer—
    I was wondering what happened after the deadline? Did they send you home? Are they paying your salary?

    (Not a political question! I was just wondering what happened to the people involved.)

    Reply ↓
  62. GreenApplePie*

    I live in an area that has a lot of federal workers and the entire neighborhood has been noticeably quieter in the past month. Restaurants are emptier, there’s fewer people walking around, and the stores are mostly empty aside from retirees or the occasional kid dropping by after school.

    I can’t imagine that this is good for business.

    Reply ↓
    2. Panicked*

      It’s not good for business, for the country, for the organizations involved, anyone. That’s the point. There are no redeeming qualities of this witch hunt and the people salivating over the purge of this supposed “waste of money” are in for an extremely rude awakening when they need the services those orgs provide.

      Reply ↓
    3. Pine Tree*

      Within my circle of friends, almost all of us are federal employees, federal contractors, or rely on federal grants for our work. We have all scaled waaaayyyy back on any spending. I know that’s just our anecdotal data, but I can’t imagine it’s just us. Our state also has one of the highest per capita rates of federal employees (and also one of the most reliant on federal dollars). I expect our economy to collapse and it’s only a matter of how quickly.

      Reply ↓
      1. cathy*

        Most of my friends are not federal workers, and they are all hunkering down and saving for an uncertain future.

        Reply ↓
    4. mac and cheese*

      My immediate neighborhood is nearly 50% federal employees and that doesn’t include contractors. The local dentist office is already considering if they will have to close if too many people lose their jobs.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        This. And think about say, DC. If your customer base was federal employees, they are not going to need your food, coffee, drycleaning, tchotchkes, newspapers, gas, haircuts etc. this is far and wide.

        Reply ↓
  63. Tinamedte*

    How to deal with shame at work?

    I brought my kiddo (9 yo) to our very relaxed an welcoming office the other day when school was out. In hindsight, I realize this was not a good idea. Of course I need to find childcare for days like these! But I just didn’t think, I guess.

    Our CEO, who’s great and fair and approachable, took me aside and told me that I can’t do it again. Kiddo here for two hours when all else fails and I need to fix something at the office, absolutely fine. But not a whole day. She did it in a good and compassionate way and I have nothing to complain about regarding how she delivered it. She won’t hold this against me or dwell on it or anything.

    But the shame! I feel so incredibly ashamed by having displayed such terrible judgement. I cringe just thinking about it. I regularly get great & constructive feedback, and feel very appreciated at work, so I’m very much not used to scr*wing up. Probably an overreaction, but here we are…

    Do you have any tips about handling deep shame at work? Or any funny stories? :-) This is eating at me. Thank you!

    Reply ↓
    1. Honoria Lucasta*

      First: I don’t think you should feel ashamed! It’s not like you were flaunting previously established rules. You thought something was OK, and then had your misunderstanding corrected. That was an intellectual error, like getting a math problem wrong on the first try.

      So the first step is to reassure yourself that this was not actually a failing! But next, maybe just embrace the feeling for a few minutes and let your body acclimate to the emotion? This is the pot speaking to the kettle (or whatever metaphor is appropriate for “I’m telling you the message that I need to remember myself a lot of the time”), but really I have found that if I’m feeling a negative emotion sometimes the way to put it to rest is to let the full wave crest and wash over me rather than running away from it or trying to control it somehow.

      Reply ↓
    2. Antilles*

      The fact your CEO did it compassionately and isn’t holding it against you means you have nothing to feel ashamed about. You didn’t understand the rules around that sort of thing, it’s done and over with, you made a mistake, roll onwards. Everybody’s made mistakes.
      I mean, reading your post, it very clearly seems like the CEO has already mentally moved on. If she’s not still worrying about it, you shouldn’t be worrying about it either.
      For the last part, if you’re looking for stories of people making big screw-ups, search this site for “Mortification Week” and you’ll see plenty plenty plenty of people who’ve done things far more embarrassing than this and survived just fine.

      Reply ↓
    3. Fluffy Fish*

      It’s really not terrible judgement! Really really! You had every reason to think it would be fine. And just because you know now it’s not a thing that’s done, that STILL doesn’t mean it was some wildly inappropriate crazy thing to do that you should be looking back on and think omg what a terrible idea, why would I do that?

      Unless you work with a bunch of a-holes, none of them are thinking that either. I would assume that my colleague was in a bind, which happens, and wouldn’t spend a moment more thinking about it.

      Reply ↓
    5. Girasol*

      CEO probably isn’t as concerned about what you did as the specter of what the office will be like if everyone else decides to do the same and somebody’s kid(s) get out of hand. Don’t do it again but don’t worry about it.

      Reply ↓
    6. Kay*

      I think the more useful thing would be to think about why you had this lapse in judgement and work to not repeat that. For now just focus on being the most professional version of you and this will be fine.

      Reply ↓
    7. Glazed Donut*

      Shame is different from guilt. Shame is I am bad. Guilt or embarrassment is I did something bad. Try to reframe it in your mind, as you have clearly stated that it was a one off and you would have done it differently if you had time to do it over.
      I’ve definitely felt this way before – so embarrassed, how could I not know, etc. After a week or so passes, though, I can feel my ears no longer turning pink at the thought, and after about a month I’ve moved on. Of course, everyone else has moved on much more quickly and that helps too!

      Reply ↓
  64. Help with pot stirrer*

    Tips for handling a pot stirrer who is winning in the optics division?

    I have a new coworker “Jason” who is the kind of person who jumps in and announces a huge issue he has found and “fixed” even though it was a known issue and he didn’t do a damn thing to address it besides the email. Everyone in my department and the department I work with hates him.

    I’ve tried to be open minded but I admit he grates on me because of his approach. Instead of saying “Hey next time you send me the report please only send me columns A,B, and C” he’ll instead call you and be like. ” Now please please don’t take offense. Because I don’t mean this negatively. But your report is too big and complicated and you only really need A,B, and C”.

    Unfortunately he has the ear of the higher ups. He has been promoted. We have had a complete leadership change over at my site at the upper echelon. Our new leader “Jeff” seems to get along really great with Jason and worked with him briefly before.

    Jason also does a lot of stuff that sends up red flags to me. He only sends corrections or changes via teams or phone calls. He will send out emails claiming we have aligned to all the higher ups, then complain to my boss if I reply with “I disagree we have aligned. Your proposal would cause X, Y, and Z issues. I suggest we meet about alignment.”

    Since then he has started complaining about my interpersonal skills, mainly around things like who I cc. He’s even gone as far as to ask me not to copy my boss on stuff, which I have ignored.

    Any tips for dealing with someone who seems hell bent on appearing like he does your job for you when he’s more senior and seems ingratiated to the new leaders? My boss loves me. I love this company and have been here for several years. I have never had any issues with anyone working here. He is the only one. I don’t want to leave the company or my team over him. I am hoping to find a way to CYA without upsetting Jason too much. Ideally I will just fall off his radar.

    Reply ↓
    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      Why can’t you just have a sitdown with the boss? That’s why they’re there! Worth a meeting.

      – Jeff has emailed about things to give the illusion he worked on them. He did not
      – Jeff gives you the impression we met and worked on things. He did not

      Typical behavior of someone who wants to climb the ladder but do no work

      Not sure how requesting edits via text is bad, so I’d skip that one.

      But you definitely have a case to at least complain and be heard. Also why are you concerned about upsetting Jason? Maybe I’m not as nice of a person as I thought :-) but a common theme I notice here is people like “my coworker is a jerk, how do I fix it without any impact.” Well you can’t. But don’t feel bad at all, Jason started all of this.

      Reply ↓
      1. Help with pot stirrer*

        His boss is higher in the org chart then my boss.

        I have wanted to complain to her about his communication, especially with the alignment thing, but my boss asked me to hold off.

        As for the text thing I wouldn’t complain to anyone about it, but it’s a flag for me because our system deletes these after 14 days. There have also been times he’s called me and said “I’m doing X” then when I’m on a public meeting showing data I am like I am doing X to align with Jason” he says things like ” I don’t do X where did you get that idea?”

        Very few items have been ” big actionable” things from him though.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

          Confirming emails are your friends here. When he sends a text or Teams chat or calls, respond with an email to get that into the record. “To confirm, then, I’ll be doing X to align with what you said you’re doing in the text you just sent. Making sure we’re on the same page.” Yes, it’s a pain, but it creates the record he’s avoiding creating. then in the meeting your response can be, “You sent me that text and I confirmed via email, remember?”

          Reply ↓
    2. RagingADHD*

      Have you tried “talking” over him without really addressing his behavior directly at all?

      If he takes credit for other people’s work, reply all, pretend he’s shouting out the people who actually did it, and say something like, “Thanks for highlighting the important work done by Sally and Ash in identifying and fixing this issue.”

      If he says your report is “too big,” the response might be “Of course I’m not offended, I don’t expect you to understand the functions of groups X and Y, or how they use that data. It’s not really feasible for me to run custom extracts for each area, but if you hide the other tabs it might be easier for you to navigate. Do you need me to show you how to do that?”

      On alignment, “Hey, I hate to say this, but did I miss a meeting where we discussed alignment? There have not been any discussions I’m aware of, and there are some glaring issues with X and Y that really need to be addressed before moving forward. Jason, let’s get together and discuss.”

      Cheerfully (and purposefully) oblivious.

      Reply ↓
    3. Mockingjay*

      Always, always go back to process. Bludgeon him with the policy manual or best practices. And do it in an email as much as possible so there’s a record.

      “Jason, the report format is approved and contains D,E, and F purposefully. Hide the columns you don’t need, but the report is not changing; other people/projects use that data.”

      “Jason, I copy all stakeholders, including Boss, per his direction. He’ll let me know if he doesn’t want to be kept up on something.”

      “Jason, I don’t understand what you mean by ‘alignment.’ The project milestones and tasks have already been set. Has anything changed since the kickoff meeting? I checked the project schedule and the tasks are on track.”

      “Jason, per the approved SOP, please address all corrections on the master copy on the server. The system is set up to capture all edits and changes in one central location, for ease of access and version management.”

      Use calm, neutral language and cite the rule or process every single time. While it won’t change him, you’ll have proof of your professionalism. Note he’s attacking behavior, because he has no grounds for complaint on any of your work.

      Reply ↓
      1. Help with pot stirrer*

        That is how I have been handling it so far, but it seems that has pissed him off and, like I said, he’s gotten promoted and is well connected with new leaders who don’t know me.

        I’m less interested in proving him wrong and moreso looking to CYA for myself. I’ve noticed the new leadership don’t seem to trust my boss, and my skip boss has started doing things like calling me and him out in meetings to “look stern” even if what he calls out to do is the exact opposite of what we just agreed too.

        There is just a lot of pressure and unease with new leadership and I am hoping to skate through without rocking the boat but I own a contentious and expensive expense item so there will always be a need to work with Jason who is the Manager responsible for that expense across multiple sites.

        Reply ↓
        1. WellRed*

          If Jason is the new Golden Child with the new management and your boss is being a lame ass, I’d start looking around before you get pushed out.

          Reply ↓
  65. Anonymoss*

    What organizational/project management tools do you guys use with PC/Microsoft? I’m using Microsoft To-Do but I don’t love it.

    Reply ↓
    1. Tinamedte*

      I flag emails in Outlook to remember closing the loop, and seeing the tasks in the task list in Outlookwork OK, but I agree that ToDo is not good.

      We use Planner for some stuff. But our web developer uses Trello, which is similar but soooo much better than Planner (yes I’d like to easily include screen shots and other pictures in my cards, pretty please with sugar on top, Planner, please…? Ok, no.) And so I’m also not thrilled about Planner :-) But it’s still fine for our not very complicated needs.

      I can see I’m not helping very much, haha, so here’s to hoping someone else has better ideas.

      Reply ↓
    3. Another Kristin*

      Planner is not bad, you can set it up Kanban board-style, by category, by date, etc. It also plays well with Power Automate, so you can set up bots to add tasks based on form responses, emails, etc, if you have experience with the tool.

      Reply ↓
    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      For a transition from Microsoft To-do, I second the recommendation for Trello.

      I have setup and used several platforms over th (Trello, Planner, Podio, Asana, Monday.com). The conclusion I’ve landed on is that the overlap between all of them is very high. Each does one or two things better, but what works best is:

      1) Decide what you want the platform to do.

      2) Wrangle your chosen platform into doing what you want it to do.

      Reply ↓
  66. WellRed*

    There was a work advice question elsewhere from some poor fool who is owed $15k in reimbursement from their company because they float purchases for them. All told, thus person gas frinted$70k and opened something like 11 credit cards to pay for all this. And if I recall correctly, the company is a retailer that just filed for bankruptcy. I will never need a job that badly.

    Reply ↓
    1. A Book about Metals*

      I don’t remember that one, but there was one from a guy who had used his corporate card for personal things and owed $20k or so

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        The letter about the guy who owed $20k in personal expenses is here:
        https://www.askamanager.org/2015/06/i-racked-up-20000-in-personal-charges-on-my-company-credit-card.html

        There have been a few letters about people fronting business expenses on their personal cards here before:
        https://www.askamanager.org/2020/09/my-company-makes-me-front-thousands-of-dollars-on-my-personal-credit-card.html

        https://www.askamanager.org/2023/09/i-have-10000-in-unsubmitted-business-expenses-salad-dressing-conundrum-and-more.html

        I don’t know if either of those if the letter WellRed is referencing, or if they’re talking about a question from outside AAM.

        Reply ↓
          1. WellRed*

            Yes, I have think it was in WaPo. It just startled me some one would think opening 11 credit cards to juggle that much debt for a company was going to end in any way other than disaster.

            Reply ↓
  67. Annie Edison*

    Can we talk about warm weather work fashion?
    I run warm and my skin turns awkwardly pink and splotchy when it’s hot.

    In the fall and winter, I usually do slacks or a skirt, t or tank top, and a cardigan or duster sweater. I like this combo because I can get a lot of varied looks and silhouettes by mix and matching a few good pieces and I feel like I’ve put together an actual outfit.

    Now that it’s too warm for sweaters, my outfits are reading more casual since a lot of my tops are cotton. I end up feeling like I’m repeating the same basic thing, just in different colors, every day without the option to add a sweater or blazer on top for variety.

    Suggestions for clothes to wear that still look cute and varied but won’t lead to me overheating?

    Reply ↓
    1. Rainy*

      What about adding scarves or little openwork short sleeve cardigans that won’t be too hot but will make your outfit feel more finished? Also: add a hat! You’ll take it off when you get there, but if you walk in and walk out with a hat on (that’s not a ball cap), it will give it a definite “this is an outfit” vibe. Another way to dress up a casual outfit is to add some statement jewelry or a fancier shoe.

      Reply ↓
    2. Charlotte Lucas*

      I, too, run hot and blotchy. I have found cotton-linen blends to be comfortable and worth the price. But I also just try to find airy, breathable blouses and dresses. I have some trapeze dresses that I love. They are flattering for a loose fit (I am curvy), look good with or without a cardigan, and very comfortable.

      Reply ↓
    3. Thoughts?*

      I have the same issue. My solution has been sleeveless dresses (with a cardigan or blazer on the back of my chair for super-duper air conditioning— which I never use but people see). Another standard is the same a-line skirt in different colors that go with the sleeveless tops I already own. Most of my sleeveless tops are not cotton—a bit o shine to the fabric adds a sense of dressings. Biggest cooling agent was when I decided to always go bare legged!

      Finally I remind myself that—like it was in middle and high school—few people pay as much attention to how I look. They’re more focused on their own actions/looks than on mine

      Reply ↓
    4. WellRed*

      Would a lightweight blouse worn as a sweater or jacket work or still be too warm? I also gave sweaters that barely weigh anything, fabric wise.

      Reply ↓
    5. miel*

      I wear a lot of short sleeve button ups and those dress tops that are made of shimmery silky material (sorry I don’t know the word!)

      Reply ↓
    6. Roy G. Biv*

      My recommendation: When I used to go into the office I had two Eddie Bauer wrinkle free button down shirts with elbow length sleeves. They stayed cool, never looked rumpled, and required no ironing at all. I would wear them with a contrasting cotton tank top underneath so I could have an extra button undone. I also had a cotton/linen camp shirt, which did end up a bit rumpled at the end of the day, but it worked on the hottest humid days of August. Yes, it became a uniform of sorts, but I also turn pink and splotchy, so I was trying to look put together and not this close to having a heat stroke.

      Reply ↓
      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        Is seersucker still a thing in women’s wear? I (a guy) loved my seersucker shirts when I had to be schlepping around a large campus in August.

        Reply ↓
        1. Seven If You Count Bad John*

          It’s around some seasons, but it tends to date really fast, I’ve always seen it cut in weird up-to-the-minute ways that just don’t age well. Pity, it’s a great fabric!

          Reply ↓
    7. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      I have a very similar problem. I’ve invested in lightweight top layers (they’re sometimes literally called “toppers” in the fashion catalogues nowadays, and come in a variety of lengths) in linen, cotton, silk, etc. I thrift a lot so I’m always on the lookout for dusters, “oversize” shirts, shirt-dresses I can wear open over jeans or slacks, etc. Basically you can find your same cardigan/duster item but in breathable fabrics.

      You can also lean heavily on jewelry, shoes, and other accessories, for times when your uniform has to be “business T-shirt and slacks”. Switching up the length of your tops can also give you some variety–I like a tunic!

      Reply ↓
    8. Six Feldspar*

      I’ve bought four linen shirts and three pairs of linen pants (in different colours) and rotate them with different sets of earrings – nice and cool, fully covered if needed (I burn faster than an oil soaked rag) and will last a few seasons. Linen creases very easily so I hang all of them up as soon as I take them off and leave them in the shower after I’ve washed to let the steamy air unwrinkle them, but I’m in a pretty laid back office.

      Reply ↓
    9. Teal Tshirt*

      I have decided that wearing the same thing in different colors, and not having much variation, is OK. I have more than five sets, so the rotation is different from week to week. I realized I couldn’t pinpoint what would be so terrible if colleagues recognize a shirt/set.

      So that may be an option – although if you’ve thought this through, then please disregard and have a ball shopping for accessories!

      Reply ↓
    10. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Dresses are cooler for me than an outfit of multiple pieces where my waist is constrained. I like the suggestion of having a jacket, cardigan, or overblouse kind of thing on the back of the chair that you don’t necessarily wear. A couple of sleeveless or short-sleeved dresses in summery colors or neutrals, changes of toppers, jewelry, lightweight scarves.

      Let yourself off the hook of thinking you need to wear very different outfits every day. You might find it entertaining to look at the Wool& challenge of wearing the same dress every day for 100 days. It’s to make a point about wool not being stinky, and it’s also inspiration for making the same basic piece look very different with accessories. (I love their dresses; they have pockets!)

      For toppers, cardigans that have a really open, loose weave and very light fiber will be cooler than formal jackets.

      You probably already do other cooling techniques such as having a cold wet rag to wipe the back of your neck once in a while (if you can’t actually wear an ice bag), having a tiny fan circulate the air for evaporative cooling when you have damp skin, those kinds of things.

      Reply ↓
  68. Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge on Seattle*

    I need a gut check. Is it possible to recover when you have reached the bitch eating crackers stage with your boss?

    I am, in general, an incredibly patient and diplomatic person, and I am good at maintaining positive relationships with difficult people (thanks, childhood trauma and its legacy of people pleasing tendencies!)

    However, I have finally crashed into the Wall of Nope. The Wall of Nope tells that my boss, while well-meaning and competent in a variety of ways, has been pushing my buttons for months and isn’t going to change. I don’t necessarily think my emotional reaction is proportional to her behavior (see trauma above), but I still hate it and I want it to end.

    This has happened to me twice before in my working life, and I found new jobs both times. No regrets! But there are big incentives to stay at my current job for a while longer. I know I might need to start job hunting soon, but I feel like I should be able to make this work! I’m usually such a chill person at work, but now that the Wall of Nope has become visible through the mist, the desire to run for the hills, or possibly berate my boss to her face(!!), is hard to shake.

    Yes, I do have a therapist. But I would be grateful for insights from people who have had this experience – a mediocre boss who provokes an outsized emotional reaction, and how you honored that feeling and protected yourself without tanking your career.

    Reply ↓
    2. Put the Blame on Edamame*

      My sympathies, this sounds really aggravating. In the past I’ve found it sometimes useful to adopt the anthropological approach – observing La Boss like a zoo creature, dispassionately noting her quirks. Or affect that she is a sitcom character, annoying but no more than a poorly written trope. Anything to zoom out from the situation. Remember that life is long, the world is big,this is just a blip.

      Reply ↓
    3. MissBliss*

      Having just resigned from a situation similar to what you described, what I’d encourage you to explore is the feeling that you ought to be able to work through it. What is the “ought”? Is it “I ought to be capable of this”? Or a sense of obligation?

      Reply ↓
      1. Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge on Seattle*

        That’s a really helpful & productive question to ask. It’s a resume building role and pays well. And there’s ego/self-image as well. But I’m also in a helping career, and I have direct reports that I want to shield from the chaos. It’s hard to know when it’s time to step back.

        Reply ↓
        1. Rainy*

          I just left a job that sounds pretty similar. My immediate supervisor was a nice person and asked constantly “what can I do that will help you do your job better?” but the answer was honestly “hire more people, because I’m doing the work of at least three people” and she was getting sick of me asking and it showed. But I’d already asked what of my workload was highest priority and what could slide, and nothing could slide and everything was high priority, so the only logical remedy was more staff. I did the best I could to keep all the plates spinning, and then I found another job. I worked at that institution for almost ten years, and was in my final role there for several years, and role creep was definitely a factor in my irritation with leadership. I also have noticed, over my entire career in a helping profession, that role creep is maybe particularly bad in these types of professions.

          Sorry about the rambling, but basically once you start feeling burnout and anger, I doubt you are actually shielding your direct reports from that chaos as much as you want to and intend to do, and even if you were, that’s the definition of setting yourself on fire to keep other people warm.

          Reply ↓
    4. Also bad at names for these things*

      Reminding myself that I am choosing this for a reason makes it somewhat more bearable.

      Reply ↓
      1. Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge on Seattle*

        Thank you. I think that sense of agency is part of what I’m missing. Weirdly, being at the point where leaving is an option might help it feel like a true choice rather than a prison sentence.

        Reply ↓
  69. My Home is a Fort*

    Any tips or advice for managing a direct report who doesn’t do work for you directly? I oversee a team of specialists that do work that I oversee and I’m getting a new team member who will do similar work as my current team, but for other teams that are quite a bit different from mine. Think a shared services type role. It totally makes sense for them to be under me, but this is a different situation for me as a manager. I’ll have strong feedback loops with the other teams and a dashboard to see what they’re working on.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Make sure that this person feels connected to their peers. Professional development, company standards and best practices, somebody else who can sanity-check their ideas, etc.

      In the long run, it would be good if you could turn this into a rotating secondment position.

      Reply ↓
  70. Filosofickle*

    Stories of Women’s History Month fails?

    Last week my former company put out a “vote for your favorite female coworker” contest with categories such as Miss Perfect and Miss Congeniality. There are leaderboards.

    And…..go!

    Reply ↓
    2. Roy G. Biv*

      Nominate a woman in leadership for a company wide award. So I checked out the top 3 layers of leadership in my company….. no women! Huh!

      Reply ↓
    3. Decidedly Me*

      There was a webinar with a panel of women at the company. It was hosted by a man, rather than any of a number of women that could have done the hosting. It was awkward…

      Reply ↓
    4. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      So not my job, but on a professional admin assistant board someone posted that at their company they took all the women to lunch and then had a surprise trip to a shop to make your own candles/lotions/body butter. Me and a few people commented that this seemed very gendered.

      Reply ↓
      1. Anonymous Cat*

        Whenever I see posts anywhere about this kind of thing, I’m reminded of the holiday gift bag story where they were planning to give the men mini-multi-tool gadgets (and something girly to the women)—and women were piping up that they’d like that too!

        Side note: I once worked in an office that wasn’t the greatest at picking out gifts but once they gave EVERYONE one of these and I still use it! One of the best gifts ever!

        Reply ↓
    5. Always Tired*

      I did not organize the women in construction happy hour and told the bosses they should do it, because the optics of having one of the few women do it is…. not amazing. So they consulted their calendars and picked a day only 3 of the 6 women at the company could make, because that’s what worked best for the two of them. A++ work, gentlemen.

      Reply ↓
  71. Justin Just Plain at a Loss*

    Posting in the right open thread this time :D

    I’m in my thirties with my first exempt job ever, and it’s had its ups and downs but one consistent is the strange working relationship with my boss

    Our team is unusual; less than 10 staff in this Marketing department but over half have the title of Manager. I only answer to my supervisor on paper, but often have to pick up slack from associates or even take orders from other department heads with zero input or affect from my manager. Disorganization and sporadic communication is the norm. My work specifically centers around engagement with organizations outside our own, ie charity work, grants, etc

    My big issue is that when my boss seeks my opinion on damn near anything, his response (and decision for what I need to do next) is almost always oppositional. He complains about cost for swag products, I cut back on swag, then he says we should’ve gotten even more than year before. But f I suggest similar expenditures for other outreach, I’m told that’s way out of budget (it’s not, I see the budget and all the missed line items that we plan for, get approved, but never fulfill). I’ve been lambasted for going $50 over a couple hundred budget but he vocally supports another manager going hundreds over and completely off brand.

    He’s even personally changed my copy to things grammatically awkward or entirely incorrect, and then implied that I don’t know grammar. He’s a big fan of ChatGPT. When he solicits opinions, everything has to go thru his filter of being incorrect, but of course he fixes it!

    I know my ultimate decision is take it or leave it. But do any of you have short term survival strategies, at least until I can increase the time on my resume? I’m not in a place to move for my career, financially. And the economic outlook is …. well yeah. I refuse to do what feels obvious and just tell him the opposite of what I want, because I believe in the integrity and transparency of my work and I won’t intentionally mislead anyone on my team.

    Any advice or input is appreciated

    Reply ↓
    1. miel*

      Gosh, I’m sorry!

      1) Keep looking for other jobs.
      2) Do you have any trusted colleagues or mentors you could ask for advice?
      3) Emotionally disconnect from work somewhat. If Boss is paying you to make poor quality products, that’s his own bad decision…
      4) Are there any ways you can continue to develop and use your skills outside of work? Does a local charity need someone to do comms & marketing?

      PS one short-term job is not a problem. Only a habit of short-term jobs is. Don’t stay solely because of some imaginary required length of time.

      Reply ↓
      1. Hlao-roo*

        Expanding on (3):

        Some people find it helpful to run an inner monologue like a nature documentary to help them emotionally detach. Instead of “My boss complained about the cost of swag products, so I cut back on the amount of swag products, and now he’s complaining that we didn’t have enough swag and I should have ordered more swag than last year” you can think along the lines of “Yesterday, I observed Bossicus oppositionus complain about the cost of swag products. Today, in response to ordering less swag, Bossicus complains about not having enough swag. What does Bossicus want more, money or swag? Will he have enough swag to survive the winter conference season?”

        Another approach (if “nature documentary narrator” doesn’t work for you) is a work bingo card. This should be in your head or a physical copy not at work, where you put various annoying/oppositional things your boss does. When you get to five “squares” in a row, you buy yourself a small treat. If your boss does enough things to cover the whole board, you buy yourself a bigger treat. When your boss changes your copy or when your boss complains about your grammar (that’s actually his bad grammar), you’ll be thinking about your bingo board, and that can help distract from the annoyance and unfairness of what’s happening.

        Reply ↓
    2. FISH*

      Something I did at a dysfunctional company with a micromanager boss who often wanted me to do things that were A Bad Idea was offer up three options: the absolutely perfect solution that would cost way too much, the doable but not great option that would be cheap but not solve everything, and the middle solution which would cost more but not terribly and still might miss some ideal solves. I’d make sure that none do the solitons were actually Bad (even if some were better), and tell him I wasn’t sure which one to go forward with and then let him chose one. This let him feel like he was still making the Big Decisions but kept me from being asked to do something illegal. Obviously your mileage may vary, but it worked for me.

      But also get out of there as soon as you can.

      Reply ↓
  72. Pink Flamingo*

    I could use some advice about negotiating when moving from a contract role to a full-time hire.

    My husband was hired in a contract-to-FTE role, and at the time, he was told he’d be converted to FTE after 3 months. After some stalling, and then some more stalling, and couple of contract renewals, I think the conversion to FTE is finally going to happen (fingers crossed). When he first signed on with this company, he was asked what salary he’d want when he was converted to FTE, and he said the same as he accepted for the duration of the contract. Now that he’s been in the role for more than a year, how would he go about asking for a higher number? Or would that be bad form?

    The reason I’m hesitant is that the reason for negotiating isn’t about the role itself – it hasn’t changed, and it wasn’t different than he understood it to be when he first joined. It’s more that he was kept as a contract worker for longer than we were told would be the case, and as a result, he’s missed out financially. In the extra time he’s spent as a contract worker, he’s had to take time off unpaid because he doesn’t get PTO; he isn’t eligible for retirement plan matching; he wasn’t eligible for a COL increase or bonus for 2024 like all FTE employees at his title level are, and there was also a cash-out of stock options that he missed out on. In addition to that, he now has a track record of success in the role and is a valued member of the team. So to reflect that and to “make up” for some of the financial hit we have been taking while he’s on a contract, I was wondering if it makes sense to ask for an increased salary. On the other hand, we both knew when he accepted this role that their promise of hiring him on full-time wasn’t a guarantee and that there was a risk that the conversion would be pushed back or wouldn’t happen at all. He accepted the role knowing full well he wouldn’t be eligible for PTO or options as a contract worker. So I know we missed out on some financial benefits of an FTE role, but it’s not like the we didn’t know that was a risk going into it.

    I apologize for the rambling, but I’d love to hear some thoughts on (1) if it makes sense to negotiate a bit of a salary bump in this set of circumstances, and (2) how to do so successfully. I’m worried it will sound like sour grapes if he doesn’t phrase it carefully.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      If he’s been paid as a contractor (a real contractor, not just a short term employee), getting hired on would mean you’re no longer paying self-employment taxes, so at the same salary, you would still end up with more money.

      Reply ↓
    2. Notmorningper*

      I take your point about the unpaid time off and missed raises, but I’m not sure I d negotiate based on that. As you say, he knew that going in. I think he could say ‘when I was hired on contract a year ago the going rate was x; if I were coming in fresh today the rate would be x plus 5%’ or whatever’s realistic. Or he could say ‘as contract I wasn’t eligible for COLA, so my salary is behind the normal rate; I’d like to discuss starting as FTE at the current salary of x’. The point is not the hit that your family took – but the market rate for the job which has grown since he came on.

      Reply ↓
  73. New Non-Birthing Parent*

    My wife and I are expecting our first kid in August and we are both a few weeks away from telling our jobs (ahh). Which makes this feel even more real, since really only our close families know at the moment.
    Thankfully we live in a state that has paid family leave so while I would love more leave, it is a great benefit. I wear a lot of hats at my job (nonprofit) and will be on leave right before a huge event that I run. Any suggestions on how to tell my boss/team without stressing everyone out? I have some ideas for a plan, but not sure how detailed I should be in the announcement.
    I am the first one in my office to have a kid while working here so no examples to go off of.

    Reply ↓
    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      What do you mean by you have some fun ideas for a plan? do you mean te plan for the benefit or a plan on how to tell your coworkers? Because if its a plan to tell your coworkers that could go south. Don’t do anything extravagant. Talk to your boss first before you announce it to everyone else. If its anything more than bringing in a treat and saying your family is expecting its going to be too much. Especially since you are the first person expecting at your company, you don’t want to set some sort of weird precedent for baby announcements.

      Reply ↓
      1. New Non-Birthing Parent*

        Oops, sorry I meant I have a plan for coverage while I am out! Telling my boss and coworkers will be very straightforward. I just know my boss can become micromanage-y when she is stressed which this might cause. So not sure if I should come in with a detailed plan that she may disagree with.

        Reply ↓
    2. Coffee*

      start with your boss and be a matter of fact. emphasize how much time you have and that you have some ideas for making sure things go smoothly and your absence and then engage with the conversation for how to move forward

      I wouldn’t get too detailed because otherwise you’re going to put energy into a plan that may not be what your boss wants

      the more matter of fact and clear that you look forward to doing everything you can to make things go smoothly and not exuding stress yourself the better it will go

      Reply ↓
    3. Pomodoro Sauce*

      Congratulations!

      I’d tell your boss first, and then if she gets real anxious you can redirect towards the bones of your plan. Let your team know after your boss knows, when there’s the start of a plan in place.

      Reply ↓
  74. DisneyChannelThis*

    Advice for asking boss about his paternity leave? Boss is expecting a kid due in 3 weeks, no one has said anything re if he’s taking time off, will we have contact or no contact etc. Academia adjacent. I have a meeting next Tuesday with him, planning to ask him then but need some help on phrasing – “Yo boss how long will you be out with the new guy”

    Reply ↓
    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I’d be just matter of fact. Just say “will you be taking time for the baby?” and then ask what plans are for him being gone. When and if you can contact him, etc. Keep in mind some places have strict rules about parental leave where they are not allowed to contact or do any work, including emails.

      Reply ↓
      1. DisneyChannelThis*

        Thanks! Yes, exactly, in corporate we weren’t allowed to contact while they were on parental leave, like 0 emails, 0 slacks. Im not sure what the situation is here

        Reply ↓
        1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

          That’s kind of an annoying policy, I would say! If I were out on leave, I would want to come back and be able to read a record of what had been going on in my absence.

          Reply ↓
    2. EMP*

      I think “Are you planning to take any leave after the baby comes?” is fine – it’s asking for some factual information and you can go from there. If you have a big event coming up that he could conceivably miss, you could also mention that. “If you’re planning to take leave, will it overlap with the gala?”

      Reply ↓
    3. Hlao-roo*

      In my workplace, I’d probably ask “hey, [boss name], are you taking paternity leave when the baby arrives?” A little more formal than “Yo boss how long will you be out with the new guy” but not by a lot :)

      And then maybe one or two questions along the lines of “how long do you think you’ll be gone for?” and “who should I contact about XYZ while you’re out?” and then end the conversation with something along the lines of “I’m excited for you/your family!”

      Reply ↓
  75. Physical Therapist Career Change*

    I’m a mid-career software engineer and I’ve been interested in Physical Therapy as a career option for a while, but always in a “in another life I’d have…” way. Recent job stress has made me look harder at if this is realistic for me. My friend who’s a medical doctor at a hospital says healthcare sucks right now and she’d never advise getting into it unless you’re working for yourself and charging cash. I’ve looked at job postings in my area and they advertise 40hr/week schedules with benefits, it seems a lot more chill than what my friend deals with in a hospital, but I can see that a job posting will paint a rosy picture of the job.
    It is a 3 yera full time degree but I need a lot of pre requisits since my degree is so old. Am I crazy to start dipping my toes in by taking the pre req classes now? Is healthcare really that thankless, even outside a hospital system? Sorry if this is an’t a very well thought out question.

    Reply ↓
    1. basil and thyme*

      if you’re interested, you should start taking the prereq’s; I presume it would take a couple of years to finish them. Maybe, before you commit to the full degree, you can shadow/volunteer at a phyio’s office. My physio had students who did this. That would give you access to the physios and a chance to see what it’s like.

      Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      I would think a doctor in a hospital has a special level of stress a PT wouldn’t. Helping patients get their mobility or whatever back can be rewarding and it has standard hours. (Not a PT or medical professional).

      Reply ↓
    3. Lewis*

      I have extended family who are physiotherapists. Satisfaction really depends on your energy levels and client demographics. It can be a physically demanding and draining job as if you are doing say, workplace injury rehab, you are dealing with people in pain and who very often do not want to do your exercises because the exercises are causing them more pain. (I know – it’s good for them long term, but people can be irrational).
      You have to be empathetic but not sensitive.

      Some physios I know have switched to working with sports teams which can have more of a proactive/preventative rest and recovery aspect.

      Reply ↓
    4. Karstmama*

      Another thought could be PT Assistant. They make less but it’s a quicker (community college) degree and could get you started in the area with less money and time commitment. PT school is hella competitive.

      Reply ↓
  76. Lisa*

    Hi everyone,

    Just wondering if anyone has any tips to make sure the job hunt doesn’t completely eat you alive (especially if you deal with anxiety). I’ve been unemployed for the past 3 years and while I’m making some progress, it’s still not enough. Plus I got a job rejection email from a phone screen earlier this week which stings a little more since it’s my birthday. Sigh. TIA

    Reply ↓
    1. DisneyChannelThis*

      Happy birthday!

      Don’t keep doing the same thing over and over if it’s not leading to success. Keep trying differently. Keep getting feedback, doing mock interviews, trying out different resume options, trying out different job boards/contacts.

      Don’t spend all your time job hunting, make a regular schedule: wake dress go outside, 2 hrs on an app, 1hr chores/active stuff at home, 2hrs on another app. Burnout is real.

      Learn something new. Relevant to your field or totally random like crochet. New skills build confidence. Confidence shows in interviews as personality for success.

      Be kind to yourself. Society seems to equate job with value. You matter. You have value. Your job status does not change that. Don’t let negativity in.

      Reply ↓
    2. Six Feldspar*

      Happy birthday, despite the circumstances!

      Last couple of times I was job searching, I created a spreadsheet to list my applications and rewarded myself with takeaway dinner for every ten *rejections* I received, both to treat myself nice and to reward myself for getting past the paralysis and just get on with sending out applications.

      Reply ↓
  77. BitPerplexed*

    I’d welcome any thoughts from readers – I’m newer to managing (a couple of years experience) and started in a new role a few months ago. One of my direct reports works compressed hours, which was agreed a while before I started.
    I’ve recently realised I don’t ever come across ‘evidence’ they are working their full hours. I’m not sure why I’ve started feeling suspicious and it’s not usual for me to question this sort of stuff. We have project development-type roles, so it’s quite possible they are working ‘behind the scenes’ – rather than sending emails or other work that gets ‘time-stamped’. It’s just with other team members working different patterns, I often see the early/late times they save/update files etc in our online shared filing system or emails, and that reminds me of their different working hours.
    How would you bring this up with them?

    Reply ↓
    1. WorkerDrone*

      Well, is this person’s work getting done in the time frame you expect? Do you have any other measures of whether or not someone is working other than when their emails or files are time-stamped?

      Reply ↓
    2. Amaryllis*

      I would ask whether this person is meeting their deliverables / goals? For my work, I could spend hours trying to analyze a spreadsheet or determining the next steps for a project. And unless I’m saving the spreadsheet every 10 minutes, there might not be any evidence that I am “working”.

      Unless of course they are an hourly employee who needs to report start and stop times.

      Reply ↓
  78. PassThePeasPlease*

    Welp guess it’s happening, my partner’s job sent out the dreaded “Team All Hands” invite followed by the 1am “reduction in force” email last night/early this morning. Team all hands said contact your manager for more information but his manager had no info/seemed just as confused as the rest of the team.
    To make matters worse, I have plans to enroll full time in grad school in the fall and was planning to take a major pay reduction to focus on that and my insurance is through his job (US based).
    Going to take the weekend to decompress but if anyone has any layoff advice/commiseration/happy stories would love to hear.

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      Can you put off grad school for a year or semester? Do students qualify for some sort if insurance?( it’s been a minute since I was a student but the U offered it). Can you do school part time?

      Reply ↓
    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      This is NOT the time for anyone to take major pay reduction, even without warning of a RIF. Few jobs are totally safe and the US job market sounds grim.

      Reply ↓
  79. Blue Pen*

    No advice needed, just a vent here: I volunteered to put together an internal gathering-informal event-thing as part of a program in my office; it’s something I used to do a long time ago, but it’s all coming back to me now as to why I no longer do this kind of work (event management, basically). The logistics seem to be cursed, and I just cannot even begin to tell you how much I’m looking forward to when this is behind me at the end of next month.

    Anyways, I have so much admiration for those who run or plan events for work. The devil is in the details, and I don’t think everyone always understands or appreciates how hard it can be.

    Reply ↓
    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I had a realization about this kind of thing last year too – I end up being the one who has to do the last-minute stuff for some social groups I’m in; I live near the usual restaurants and used to work in the food/beverage industry.

      I’m refusing to do it now. The nominal organizer always shows up late. I have to introduce myself to the manager and the servers, help get tables organized, wave down the first attendees, etc. Then the organizer doesn’t bother to introduce themselves when they do show up, and they criticize the decisions I had to make in their absence. I try to make the handoff and the organizer gets deer-in-the-headlights.

      If you can do that stuff and not resent your coworkers/friends before they’ve finished their first drink, more power to you. But that’s not me.

      Reply ↓
      1. Blue Pen*

        Yes! For me, it’s the wrangling of cats while trying to keep as calm, cool, and collected as possible. Some people critical to the whole thing don’t reply or get back to you until the absolute last minute, some people respond so vaguely you might as well need a PhD in ancient Aramaic, some technical issues backfire, etc. I know it’ll be fine at the end of the day, but dang, I’m not doing this again. No sir.

        Reply ↓
    2. The Prettiest Curse*

      As an events planner, thank you. :)
      I always compare event logistics to special effects in a film – if it’s done well, you don’t even notice, but if it’s done badly, it’s glaringly obvious. Event planning can be a thankless task because people expect impossible things to just magically happen.

      In my time, I’ve planned a fair few events that turned our to either be way more complicated than originally anticipated or downright cursed, so hang in there, and good luck with your event!

      Reply ↓
    3. Amaryllis*

      Event planning is one of the tasks that I absolutely dislike with a passion. I’m ok with details and logistics, but there are just too many moving parts and things change on a dime.

      Kudos to those who enjoy it!

      Reply ↓
    4. The Prettiest Curse*

      Ha, apparently your comment about your event is cursed, because my original reply to you didn’t post!

      As an events planner, thank you for reminding people that events don’t just magically happen. I have done a fair few events in my time that turned out to be way more complicated than originally anticipated, so hang on in there and best of luck with your event.

      Reply ↓
  80. Amaryllis*

    Looking for ways to deal with a higher-up trying to use their influence to the benefit of their spouse (also an employee).

    One of the employees I work with is married to one of our C-suite individuals. We have a program where the employees can submit their case for review for a raise (and most of the time, it’ll get approved). Based on the factors of the employee’s case and limited dept budget, I suggested a specific percentage (let’s say 5%). The employee seemed okay with it.

    The C-Suite person (employee’s spouse; is in charge of approving these requests) told someone in HR that the employee’s increase should be changed to 25% (the maximum). HR told me and I thought “well, I’ll wait until the employee asks me themselves”. Then C-Suite emailed me to ask to change it to 25%.

    Obviously, C-Suite shouldn’t be approving requests related to their spouse(!), but I am not inclined to stir the pot by bringing this up. However, can I at the very least insist that I cannot discuss any details related to the employee with the employee’s spouse and if the employee wants to make any changes, they need to request it themselves? (It’s such an odd situation because clearly C-Suite will see the request later anyway).

    Reply ↓
    1. Shiny Monkey*

      Oh, this is hard. I would definitely push back — “Company policy is to speak with the employee directly regarding changes in their payroll” or however you want to phrase it. It feels silly, knowing C-Suite will see it later, but it’s the principle of the thing.

      Reply ↓
    2. WellRed*

      I’m not clear on what you’re asking with regard to who is speaking to whom. However, if word of this gets out to other employees, there’s going to be a mutiny.

      Reply ↓
    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Disgraceful abuse of power.
      You absolutely cannot give more than the 5% you thought appropriate, let alone 25%. You are the one who’d get canned if this gets out. So, you have to stand firm and state you can only discuss raises with the employee, not their family members.

      Is there anyone in HR at their level or near that whom you could express your concern at the impropriety?

      If you haven’t done so already, I would forward the EM from C-suite to your manager, your grandboss and everyone involved in HR, also your Legal Dept, saying you are concerned about the implications of this request. The idea of this is to circulate this issue to a wider audience, so it is discussed within the org, maybe higher up and gets shut down – for fear of legal implications, or a mutiny among other employees as the info spreads.

      Reply ↓
  81. Get me off this ship!*

    I’m not sure I even have a question. I just am so frustrated, at a new job for a year that turns out to be horribly dysfunctional, but the pay is great. My old job at my old company is available but doesn’t make enough to make ends meet. I don’t want to jeopardize my job because well *waves hand at US news*

    Trying to practice detaching from my job. I don’t know how to do this very well though, when we work 40-45 hours a week! I wish I could do better about framing it as just a thing that funds my lifestyle. But I really care about my team and supporting them from the fire, so I overthink outside of work. I need to detach! Throw the rope away on the weeknights and weekends!

    Reply ↓
    1. DJ*

      It’s a hard one. Can you provide more info.
      I work somewhere where the pay is good, hours flexible and at the moment mainly WFH but the workload has been horrendous since they didn’t replace someone who left. Also a difficult manager. I’m looking at a sideways move.
      I’ve also toyed with the idea of leaving the organisation but as an older worker I’ll have downtime before securing new work.
      I remind myself of the positives put in extra hours when needed to get the work done (I minimise this as much as possible) whilst continuing to look for a sideways move.
      Hopefully in time you can move onto a functional workplace that pays well.

      Reply ↓
    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      With current state of the US job market I recommend anyone keeps tight hold of a reasonably safe job with good pay. Leaving your job because it’s frustrating is the luxury of yesteryear and normal times, not something to do in the current dystopia.

      Just regard your job as what you do to fund your “real life” and invest all your emotions in what you do outside work.

      Reply ↓
  82. juliebulie*

    Phooey. Inspired by a letter writer earlier this week, I spite-checked Indeed and found something good to apply to. But Indeed sent me to the employer’s website, where I was screened out by a bot who didn’t want to hear from me if I didn’t have a master’s degree. They don’t care about my 35+ years of experience. Does this happen to people a lot?

    Reading the expanded requirements for the job, I noticed that they mentioned Google and Facebook as their standard, and I’m not sure if it was sour grapes or what, but when I read that I said “ugh, never mind.”

    Reply ↓
    1. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      Do you mean you had to chat with a bot in order to get to the application itself? I have encountered this many times, but not been specifically asked about my education as a qualification to even get to the application link. I’ve been asked if I have X years doing a thing or managing people for X years and then was sent the link to apply or shown a button to apply. I say you can always clear your cookies/cache and try again with the bot if that’s the only way to get to the application. Good luck!

      Reply ↓
  83. DobbysSock*

    Anyone have any advice on how crucial a credit check is part of a background check? I received the offer for a position (pending background check) that “collaborates with the director” on office budget, but would not oversee the budget myself. I have meh credit, a little below average due to a high amount of debt and a few late payments. Think high 500s/low 600s due to some poor financial decisions in my early 20s and school loans. This is the first background check I’ve ever had that has also had a credit check. I have 3 years experience of managing a $1.5 million financial aid budget, so I could hopefully reference that if there were any red flags or concerns. I just wasn’t sure HOW important the credit check is going to be and if anyone has any insights. Thanks in advance!

    Reply ↓
    1. juliebulie*

      I asked a recruiter once and they said it didn’t matter much unless I was going to be handling money and the credit check showed that I was really bad at that or might be tempted to steal. Think bankruptcies, foreclosures, etc. Of course no situation is ever that straightforward (I really don’t know what they look for), but your credit issues sound fairly typical and not like big red flags.

      Reply ↓
      1. DobbysSock*

        That has calmed me down a lot, thank you! I felt like I was in a pretty standard place with credit issues, but had never experienced a credit check and started working myself up with worry. If there is any issue, I hope they’ll also talk to me first and ask any questions versus just pulling the offer.

        Reply ↓
    2. Always Tired*

      I got a job as an admin assistant at a bank with a credit score like yours in my 20s with recent late payments on medical debt. It’s really checking for Very Low scores(think sub-550), defaults, etc. the kind of stuff that says “we shouldn’t trust this person with access to a company card or client accounts.”

      you should be fine.

      Reply ↓
    3. Kay*

      It is really going to depend on the company and their policies, but to give you an example I’ve seen people with bankruptcy and poor credit get jobs in heavily financially related sectors where they are authorized signers on accounts with access to LOTS of millions. I personally wouldn’t worry too much about it.

      Reply ↓
  84. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    I need a script for an extremely simple request, but I’m too wrapped up in the situation to put the words together, even though it’s obvious. I have a team member (below me jn the hierarchy, so there’s a power imbalance) who will randomly call me on Teams without a message. I need to ask her to ask me, via a teams message, if she can call beforehand/check that i am free to talk. How can I put this together? Yes this is daft I know.

    Reply ↓
    1. Shiny Monkey*

      I would use something like,
      “Hi Jane, in the future can you message me on Teams to see if I’m available before calling me? This way I can wrap up what I’m doing and make sure I dedicate my full attention to you.”

      I feel like the first sentence on its own is fine, but the second sentence might soften it a bit if that’s what you’re after. Not daft at all to get a second opinion!

      Reply ↓
    2. juliebulie*

      It’s not daft, but have you tried ignoring the random “hello”? Because it is not actionable. And, perhaps next time you do speak to that person, ask them to just explain what they want instead of pinging you like that. You might not answer right away but at least you’ll know what they want and you can figure out whether it’s something you can take care of now or later.

      Of course, for the Teams pinger, that’s similar to writing an email and waiting for a response. Which is maybe what they should do, haha. But seriously I mostly ignore those “hey are you there” pings unless they are from my boss or someone I need to hear from. Most people, after a pause without my response, actually do end up sending me an email, or else they ask their question in Teams and I answer it when I see it.

      I rarely use Teams to approach people, because I know it can be an interruption and things are rarely that urgent. But if I do, I make sure to ask my actual question before I send the message so they don’t have to wait for it after being distracted.

      Reply ↓
      1. Strive to Excel*

        Yup, I’d just not pick it up next time and say then “I’m currently occupied but can get back to you at X. It works best to ping me before calling”.

        Reply ↓
    3. RagingADHD*

      There’s a cohort of people – we have a lot in my org – who use Teams calls as a substitute for phone calls as if it would roll to voicemail. She probably just needs a redirect.

      “Hi Betty, please ping me before calling – I am not always free to talk. Thanks!”

      And of course, do not ever pick up. Can you mute her?

      Reply ↓
    4. Zona the Great*

      Does it bother you if colleagues call on the phone without leaving a message? I’d treat it the same way. If they need something, they can leave a message. If I can’t answer, I don’t.

      Reply ↓
  85. Manicure Maria*

    Thanks to the kind resumé advice I received here last week I have an interview scheduled for a job I’m pretty interested in! My last position was in a horribly toxic company that was dysfunctional as a structure and that dysfunction trickled down into every crevice making daily life tough going and at times miserable….and I’m very keen to avoid that again. I know we can never really know what we’re getting into until it’s too late with a new job but do you have any examples of questions to ask at interview to gauge the management culture? Not so much whether we play ping pong and sip virgin martinis on Fridays but more how the management function as a unit within the organisation. The role is pretty senior and sits within the management team.

    Reply ↓
    1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Maybe questions about their culture around feedback and how you’ll know you and the team reporting to you are on track for expectations, how they handle it when you aren’t. That’s a specific aspect of culture, not culture in general which can be easy to shake off with “it’s great!”. Do they expect mistakes because they’re a natural side effect of trying new things and learning so they take the lessons and move on, or do they convey an air of punishment and failure?

      Depends a bit on which types of dysfunctions your last place had, too. How about a good scenario question: “If something along the lines of XYZ [terrible thing you don’t want to live through again that doesn’t give away too much] happened, how would that be handled?”

      Reply ↓
  86. Captain Kidding*

    Applying for new nonprofit comms leadership roles and I keep getting rejected. The feedback? I don’t have the experience necessary.

    Except…I’ve only been applying to roles that pretty much perfectly match my experience. I get results. I’m one of the top performers on my team.

    It’s shattered a lot of my confidence. And I’m wondering if it’s because I’m trans and somewhat open professionally (I don’t advertise it but I have given public presentations on trans inclusion in the workplace). Frankly, I feel a bit gaslit by client/supervisor/colleague feedback: am I also just not as good as everyone says? Do I suck at interviews?

    The most blatant rejection was a queer/trans organization looking for someone with my exact qualifications. I had what felt like a great interview. Rejected before interview 2. I looked at the team I would have been hired onto and nearly every single person in leadership is not transgender.

    What gives?

    Reply ↓
    1. Maryn*

      Our daughter is trans and assures me that what gives in these situations is that plenty of business entities talk the talk but cannot, do not, and will not walk the walk.

      The bias against anybody different is more subtle and hidden than it used to be, but it’s still strong. In the current sociopolitical climate it may be more acceptable, too. (Sigh.) I’m so sorry this is happening to you.

      Reply ↓
      1. a trans person*

        It’s not subtle or hidden. Cis people just don’t believe it even when they see it happening right in front of them.

        Reply ↓
    2. Manicure Maria*

      I can’t speak to the trans element as I don’t have any experience of it but I will say that the job market is incredibly tough right now in the non-profit space. Probably most industries to be fair but I’m only looking in non-profits so that’s my reference point. I think there are a lot of ‘overqualified’ people willing to take anything, meaning that those with the ‘right’ level of experience are losing out when they’d have excelled 2-3 years ago. It is soul destroying to be on the wrong side of it and I’ve taken more than one break from job hunting because of it.

      I recently acquired a disability and applied for a role with one of the major organisations that represents my type of disability. I met all the job requirements and exceeded some, performed well at interview and had a really engaging discussion with the panel around the disability itself as part of the interview. It’s not the kind of disability that would make you question my employability or reliability and I could have done the job very well – it was a perfect fit based on my skills and the position/employer I would have been coming from. I didn’t get the job. It sticks in my throat for sure (and I won’t be supporting that organisation in the future!).

      Reply ↓
    3. Decidedly Me*

      When I was job searching last year, I was rejected for multiple roles where I met or exceeded all of the requirements, including the nice to have/bonus qualifications. I think it’s just the market, but it definitely hurt my confidence. I did end up finding a role, though!

      Reply ↓
    4. Bennie*

      I’m very sorry! I can’t speak to the gender aspect (I’m cis), but in my only-recently-ended, long search, I had multiple cases of being rejected from jobs that I was absolutely well-qualified for on paper, and it stung. The worst was after making it through three interviews. >.<

      It’s a really, really hard market right now, which sucks. I sincerely hope that you’re “only” experiencing that, and not discrimination on top of it. Best of luck to you! May your interviews be rich and your offers forthcoming!

      Reply ↓
    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agree with the other commenters and adding, “don’t have the experience necessary” is the job search equivalent of “it was nice to meet you, but I wasn’t feeling the spark” in dating.

      It’s another generic variant of “we had many highly qualified candidates.”

      Sorry it’s so rough. I’m also job searching in the non-profit space but at a much lower level. And echoing the sentiment that I hope you’re “only” experiencing a tough job market.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pickles*

        This completely. In my org we use “we can’t offer you a position” because the other feedback isn’t always on point.

        Keep in mind many orgs already have someone in mind when they are recruiting. Especially in communications since it’s such a networking focused role. I always say this here but network is really important in the job search.
        I’m sorry you are dealing with this and o hope your luck turns around.

        Reply ↓
    6. good gouda*

      Are you sure you’re conveying your experience in ways that the people doing the hiring can readily pick up on? I don’t doubt your perception of the situation, and I know queer-serving orgs can be especially oblivious to their LGB-before-the-T biases, but it might be worth getting some trusted eyes on your resume and mock interview to make sure you’re really giving your skills the showcase they deserve.

      Reply ↓
  87. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

    My workplace recently had free portrait sessions for new employees, and as a new employee I signed up to get one. They sent the photo back to me this week, and it’s really bad. None of the flaws are so major on their own, but they add up: unflattering angle, lighting makes me look like I’ve broken out in hives (when I looked fine in the mirror), one eye looks more open than the other, etc. If I had paid for this, I would definitely complain about the quality, but I’m not sure that would do me much good here — not like I can demand a redo of a free photo.

    Since starting my job I’ve been using an older photo (not a head shot, but still professional appearance) on our webpage, and I absolutely will not be replacing it at this time. But my boss knows I went to the portrait session, and I’m not sure what to say if she asks for an updated picture for the website. Is it okay to just say “it turned out bad and I would be embarrassed to have it on a purely internal site, let alone a public facing one” or is there something else I can say to save face?

    Reply ↓
    1. Admin of Sys*

      Assuming the previous photo isn’t like 20 years out of date and no longer looks like you, I think it’s fine to just say ‘I like the older photo better, so I’m going to keep using it’. I wouldn’t explain that you think the new one sucks, but it’s fine to have a preference for the original.

      Reply ↓
      1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        It’s about 3 years old now, I think, but it still definitely looks like me! I think that wording sounds better than saying what’s in my head right now — thank you!

        Reply ↓
    2. cathy*

      I don’t see anything wrong with saying it’s very unflattering so you’ll be sticking with the old one. (Show the boss the picture- maybe boss will be like oooooooh you’re right that’s bad)

      Reply ↓
      1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        Thank you! I think my fear in showing the picture is that nobody else will think it’s as bad as I do, and my mind will leap to “oh so they think I just look that bad all the time” even if that’s not really fair. I will keep that as an option, though!

        Reply ↓
    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      Is there any way you could ask for the contact sheet from the photographer? They must have taken more than one picture, so there might be another one in there that you like better.

      Reply ↓
        1. The Prettiest Curse*

          They live on in digital format! We just got headshots re-done and our photographer sent a selection of photos (by email) and referred to them as a contact sheet. So you can still choose from alternative photos even if they’re not printed out.

          Reply ↓
        2. Lore*

          They’re presented in a different format but they absolutely still exist! It’s more likely to be a link to a Dropbox than an actual grid but the photographer almost certainly took multiple shots and selected from them.

          Reply ↓
      2. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        I thought about asking, but truthfully some of the biggest problems are going to remain constant across all photos. (For instance, the splotchy looking skin is definitely going to remain in all the pictures because the lighting stays the same.)

        Reply ↓
    4. Manicure Maria*

      All the answers given already are perfect and I’ve done something similar in the past – when it came up I just said ‘you know what the new photo isn’t very flattering so I’m just going to keep the one I have’ and not an eyelid was batted. It’d be different if your original photo was years old, or you weren’t wearing the uniform they wanted you to etc. but I really wouldn’t worry about it. I also supply my own photo for my ID badge because the ones HR takes are atrocious!

      Reply ↓
      1. Mx. Snuffleupagus*

        Thank you! I think it helps to know that other people have done the same and people accepted that answer. I actually also supplied my own photo for my ID but that’s because they told me to — and the photo my dad took of me in front of the only white wall in the house at 6:00am was actually more flattering than the professional shot.

        Reply ↓
  88. Flash*

    Does anyone have tips for places to find/download for printing/buy an at-a-glance paper calendar that has enough space to write and mark multiple things on? I want one to put on my wall so I can mark time off, appointments, important meetings to prepare for, deadlines, etc. I always forget to turn the month on the standard wall calendars and by the time I remember it’s been three months, haha.

    Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        Or order directly from at a glance. We put in our calendar orders every fall back in the old days in the office.

        Reply ↓
    2. Flash*

      Head in hands. Naturally I forgot to say that I’d like one that shows the whole year at once. I’ll take a look at the at a glance website- office supply stores in my area fail me.

      Reply ↓
      1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

        It was common in some offices I visited to have 3 of the month-at-a-glance calendars displayed one above the other. They bought them loose-leaf and had a board with 3 sets of hooks, so they were always seeing at least 2 months into the future but also had the past & deep future easily accessible.

        Reply ↓
  89. Hopefully Negotiating Offer Soon*

    What are some salary negotiation scripts? I used Alison’s “Can we do X amount?”-and-then-shut-up technique and it worked in that I did get more than the initial offer. But not much, only 5%. Any other scripts?

    Reply ↓
  90. theinone*

    This might be a dumb question, but is it weird to bring a water bottle to an in person interview? I get really thirsty when I talk a lot and taking a sip also really helps when my audio-proccessing-disordered self needs another second or two to parse the question. (I can make it through without one alright with a little discomfort, but it would be really helpful.) All the interviews I’ve had before have been for college jobs where the main question is “what hours can you work” so they were very quick zoom interviews that aren’t a great representation of real interviews. Obviously I’d bring the one that isn’t covered in stickers, but is bringing on in at all unprofessional?

    Reply ↓
    1. Cordelia*

      That would be absolutely fine. You might well find that there is a glass of water provided for you anyway, I think there has been for every interview I’ve had, and we always provide one when we are interviewing

      Reply ↓
    3. Aggretsuko*

      I’d have one in my bag and pull it out if I needed it, but mostly places have provided me with a water bottle.

      Reply ↓
  91. WellRed*

    I…wouldn’t. People are carting water bottles everywhere (almost like an obsession) but it reads too casual to me (like you’re headed to a workout). Plus, will you be unscrewing or popping open the cap as you take multiple sips. Distracting. They may very well offer you water. I’m curious to hear what others think, though.

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      I disagree. It’s fine to carry a water bottle, but I’d keep it solid colored and sticker free. No hello kitty or travelogue of stickers.

      Reply ↓
      1. WellRed*

        I’m definitely out of alignment with other commenters it I still think it would be distracting to interview someone who took a drink to gather their thoughts before every question.

        Reply ↓
        1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

          I wasn’t reading OP as saying it would be before every question. I agree that would be distracting, but an occasional sip makes sense to me. I’d be on the other side of the table with my water bottle too.

          We’d offer water for an in-person interview. Now all our interviews are virtual and I find it perfectly normal for someone to take an occasional sip of water or whatever. We’re asking them to talk a lot–more than people usually would in a given time block.

          I like the suggestion of having it with you and not bringing it out unless they don’t offer you something to drink.

          I also don’t find it at all unusual for someone to pause before answering a question. You might be making notes as we ask the question so you can organize your response, you might want to collect your thoughts to make sure you don’t miss a point you want to make. If it went on a long time it would feel a trifle awkward but I wouldn’t stress over your need to take a deep breath and a beat before replying. Especially the case if you’re interviewing straight out of college–they’ll know you’re not a highly experienced interviewee. We do know people are nervous! (I’ve done a fair amount of hiring over the years, with a burst of adding a dozen people in 2023-24.)

          Reply ↓
      1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

        Not weird, but I’d keep it professional. Not a giant gallon jug, nothing that cries “gym”. Solid color, metal or plastic, smallish (I use a nice dark blue metal one, about 330ml/12 oz) that fits into my leather bag. Too large ones would look overly casual to me and would also entice me to drink so often to be distracting.

        Reply ↓
    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I agree that I find it inappropriate for a formal meeting, more behaviour for the gym or with friends.
      Anyway, an interview or outside meeting (longer than 30 minutes) should offer you coffee and I’ve asked for water instead with no problem.

      Reply ↓
  92. ABC123*

    A few resume questions:

    I know your resume should focus on accomplishments rather than duties, but how would that work for jobs in the emergency services? Anything I can think of would be really weird to try to claim credit for on a resume
    “Reduced response time by 10%” – More likely to be caused by your shift/assigned station than anything you did
    “Top X% in CPR save rate” – Sorry to say, more likely random chance and patient population in your area than anything you did
    “Reduced crime/traffic/fire incidents by X” – Heavily influenced by demographic/socioeconomic factors outside of your direct control

    The best things I can think of for a resume would be like:
    “Created new extreme-sports injury prevention program to present to middle schoolers”
    ” Conducted research evaluation of X resulting in Y cost savings to the department” etc

    The problem with those are that they don’t say anything about your capability to do your primary job fuction, only specialized/collateral details

    Reply ↓
    1. Ginger Cat Lady*

      Some jobs just don’t work like that, I am in one as well.
      I do community education for a hospital. I’m already doing as many events as we can schedule, most of them are company lunch & learn events and attendance is not something I have any influence on. So numbers reached has been stable year after year. They’re not trainings where we could measure outcomes or anything, so there are no KPIs. My budget is realistic and I stay within it, but I can’t really change what we spend it on.
      When people talk about achievement based resumes I never know what to put on mine. And honestly, I wouldn’t WANT this job to become about higher and higher numbers all the time. I wouldn’t be able to do the connecting, networking and relationship building that is key to what I do if I had to scramble for numbers.
      I hope the achievements thing dies the way resume objectives did. I’m sure it’s awesome for people who are in sales, marketing, etc. but it doesn’t – cannot – work for all types of jobs.

      Reply ↓
      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Absolutely. For some fields, achievements don’t work, or you are not allowed to quote them, e.g. my career was in R&D Engineering and I was not really allowed to specify what I’d achieved, just the areas of my experience and expertise, where I’d worked, job title and general responsibilities, no project names. Same for all the resumes I’ve read.

        Reply ↓
    2. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      I don’t work in this field but recently did a fair amount of research on the interactions between emergency response and street design so I’ve been thinking about it and about community risk reduction.

      I get that your response time, incidents etc. are out of your control, although as someone not working in this area I’d rather see a top X% in save rate than the middle or bottom! And that set of things beyond your control is going to be true for everyone in your line of work. If you think others are doing something like this when they apply then you should too without apologizing for the variables, then be prepared to speak to those if it comes up in the interview.

      Does it help to think in terms of inputs and outputs (within your control) more than outcomes (variables beyond your control)? The injury prevention program is an input, the number of students who went through it is an output. If the injury rate actually fell over a time period, that’s an outcome. An intermediate output/outcome might be results on a test of their knowledge, demonstrating that the program was effective in the short term if you don’t have longer-term data. If you can name specific things you did that contributed to the reduced response time, you do own some of it. Or “My team achieved X% reduction…” so it’s not a claim of individual accomplishment and yet the measurement is named.

      Good luck!

      Reply ↓
      1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

        Oh, and I’d think the specific duties are still relevant! And certifications. If you don’t tell them your responsibilities does the title tell them enough about what someone in that role does?

        Reply ↓
  93. Andy Bernard*

    I have a second-round interview this Monday, but don’t know if this is the last. When asked for a range, I gave one that was higher than my current salary, which I’ll assume they’re willing to work with.

    At the same time, I have been trying to leave my current employer for some time but haven’t been successful. They also told me yesterday that they had a plan for me to have a direct report in order to give me management experience. There was no definitive timeline, but this person would be filling a position that is expected to become vacant at the end of April. The expectation is that the new person will be ready to start by the end of June. This would be the first time in my career that I would have any direct reports.

    I still plan on going to the interview on Monday, but I’m not sure what I would do if the new company gave me an offer with a higher salary. I don’t know how interested I am in this job yet but am keeping an open mind. In this case, it would ultimately come down to whether I’d be willing to sacrifice earnings to gain management experience, as I don’t think this other job would have direct reports.

    I was wondering if anyone could give me any thoughts about this.

    Reply ↓
    1. WellRed*

      Well why did you start looking for another job in the first place? Surely not because you had no direct reports ( and they are only maybe giving you one m. One.). Will current job increase salary or title? Ate there other advancement opportunities? What is the company offering in salary and opportunity? I wouldn’t stay at a job just for the chance to manage one while direct reports. Would consider staying I was promoted and mana is small even tiny team.

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      1. Andy Bernard*

        Well why did you start looking for another job in the first place?

        There are other reasons, not related to not having direct reports, that I would take into consideration if offered this other job.

        Will current job increase salary or title?

        No, but I don’t want to underestimate the value of management experience. I just had a phone interview today that ended early because I told them I didn’t have management experience. Granted, I think I needed a few years, but it would be nice to be able to say “yes” if asked this question in future interviews.

        Are there other advancement opportunities?

        Assuming you’re referring to the current company, it’s a large company, so there could be some that come up.

        What is the company offering in salary and opportunity?

        If you’re referring to the new company, I don’t know what they offer, but I told them what I was looking for in salary and they moved me to the next stage, so I’d assume they could pay me within the range I named.

        Reply ↓
        1. WellRed*

          That last question applies to both companies. Long term thinking, which might offer you the career path you seek? Also, please reconsider the value you are placing on expert to manage one person. Your company doesn’t even think it’s worth a token raise. However, after your next interview ideally you’ll have more clarity on all this.

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        2. linger*

          Ask the new company what they see as the typical mid-to-long-term career progression for this role at this company. Maybe there isn’t one; maybe it could involve management experience; you don’t know until you ask. (Of course, do explicitly state this is taking a longer view; you don’t want to give the impression you’re already looking to move out of the role they’re hiring for!)

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    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I’d never hhave considered sacrificing money for experience, only maybe for much fewer hours, much shorter commute. wfh/hybrid written into your contract.
      Advancing in salary IS career progression imo, or at least promotion without more pay means they don’t really value you.

      Also, that single report sounds both very little and very nebulous – may never happen.

      You could ask the interviewers how they see the person in this role developing. However, I’d accept an offer with higher pay because it doesn’t sound like your current job is that enthusiastic about giving you opportunities – or pay.

      Reply ↓
      1. Andy Bernard*

        much shorter commute. wfh/hybrid written into your contract.

        My current job is mostly work from home. I am looking for something with a little more of an in-office presence. My ideal environment is hybrid (2-3 days a week in the office with the rest at home) but with assigned desks and a specific type of culture. I think they said the new role could be hybrid but I don’t remember the specifics- that’s something I plan to ask about tomorrow. However, the commute to the new office is definitely workable for me. That said, I admit that it would be a bit of an adjustment to actually have to be in an office regularly again, but I would be able to adapt.

        For the new job, I know the company has five employees but is under a parent company that they work very closely with. This could be a good or bad thing.

        Also, that single report sounds both very little and very nebulous – may never happen.

        I know that we have an employee who is transferring to a different department at the end of April and that upper management has approved the backfilling of the position. I also don’t think they would tell me they planned to have this person report to me if there was any doubt. It could theoretically fall through but I’m taking them at their word. I can certainly understand not waiting around for it to happen, though.

        Reply ↓
  94. BellStell*

    I would like to thank commenters Brevity and Educator for supportive comments on my post last week asking for advice on dealing with management moving a bully to my new team (was part of the reason I was moved as the bullies were quite bad on other team).

    In the end Educator noted being passive and waiting to see is going to be my plan.

    I spoke to HR asking them WTF basically and we agreed there will be no real interactions with her, all interactions go thru my line manager, I document and share anything that crosses a line with HR, and I keep positive (which easier said than done).

    As it stands she is likely to mess up sooner rather than later so I can sit back and wait. And reduce time in office when she is there etc to work at home.

    Reply ↓
  95. OutOfMyDepth*

    I’m joining the work world after being a SAHM for most of 8 years. My previous experience is almost exclusively childcare but I have a B.A. in English. Is there any advice for getting into grant writing? A specific degree or certification? Courses? Thanks!

    Reply ↓
    1. brilliant brie*

      I know my local university has some nonprofit-specific writing classes, including grant proposal writing, through the Continuing Education department. It might be worth checking your local institutions for something similar.

      Reply ↓
      1. Pickles*

        Do you have any experience at all? If not take some classes and find someone in the class or somewhere else in a nonprofit you like and volunteer to help.

        Usually you need some experience in the field you are writing about to be successful when you are starting.

        It’s a hard field to break into when you aren’t already working in it and you don’t have a track record. It’s high stakes for whoever you are writing for.

        You might get exposure working in a support role in a fundraising department too

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    2. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Fellow B.A. English grad here (long ago, with an MPA later). Brace yourself for a bit of cold water: I want to suggest that you consider other roles that would also tap into your writing skills and not focus only on grantwriting.

      I’m basing that on the huge whacking federal grants are taking right now. Agencies and nonprofits that would have been applying for those grants now have to seriously reconsider whether it’s worth the effort. The nonprofits that were getting those grants will be scrambling for resources, yes, but it’s a precarious time overall for anyone whose bottom line relies on obtaining competitive grants. People who already have skills in that arena will be competing for openings.

      The flip side is that because organizations might not be hiring full-time grantwriters they might be contracting out for the ones they do go for. You might look around for nonprofit consultants in your area in case any of them are hiring. Include PR firms that contract with public agencies in that search. Some of them may offer grantwriting support as one of their services.

      Think about what topics or areas of life you’re most passionate about so you can bring that energy into interviews, and look for the entities working in those areas. It will help you write your cover letter. “I’ve always cared about child development and making sure every child has a strong start in life. That’s why I’m interested in your opening for a grantwriter who will help bring in the resources it takes to make that possible.” (Or whatever)

      Sidebar advice: Make sure your technical skills are up to par for MS Office suite. You’ll spend a lot of time with word processing and spreadsheets and you’ll need to be proficient at online searches, for starters.

      Reply ↓
  96. Sagegreen is still jobless.*

    Hi, anyone have any advice for me? I lost my job of 21 years working at a call center in January and am trying to find another job at the age of 57. Unfortunately I don’t have many skills and its so difficult now. With what is going on in the country, I am so depressed, all I want to do is sleep. The main thing is, I don’t feel like I have anything to tempt someone to want to give me a job. I read all of the posts here, and you are all so intelligent and can do so much.
    Any advice for those of without many job skills and who can’t go back to school, but just need a job? One where I can sit as I am disabled as well.

    — sad sagegreen

    Reply ↓
    1. Student*

      I think it would take a special kind of skill to work for 21 years in a call center. I know those kinds of skills are not valued or compensated well in our society. Have you been applying for other call center positions? I would think that your track record would make you a desirable candidate in a position that often has a lot of turnover.

      Reply ↓
    2. Scrimp*

      I assume there are no other call centre jobs you could do?

      If you left your old on good terms, maybe you could semd an email to your previous manager to ask her for help or advice?

      I am sorry, I don’t have many ideas. I am semdimg you hope, and luck, stength.

      Reply ↓
    3. Cordelia*

      This does sound like depression talking, as the facts from what I can see are that you do have skills – you have worked in a call centre for 21 years. Lots of people, including me, wouldn’t be any good at that kind of job. Are you applying for other call centre jobs? Is there someone you can get to help you take an objective look at your resume and applications? Because it sounds like your depression is stopping you from seeing the positives, and you are underselling yourself. I’m sorry it’s so hard, I wish you the best.

      Reply ↓
    4. Pickles*

      Just here to say-I know you say you can’t do school . Don’t write off low cost short term community college programs.

      Reply ↓
    5. pally*

      I would think that 21 years of call center work means you have exceptional people skills.

      Receptionist type jobs come to mind. As does other people-facing work (sales maybe?).

      When I was buying a home, I dealt with a big real estate company. The receptionist there was an older woman- I’m sure she was well past retirement age. And she ranks up there with some of the most exceptional people I’ve ever met. Warm, kind, caring, genuinely concerned with whatever I needed. No issue too small. She was there to make sure I got all I needed.

      She listened to my worries, was a font of useful information, and made sure the RE agent understood what I needed. Never experienced anything like it.

      She was like that with every single person that walked in. And with the RE agents too!

      And she never left her desk in the lobby.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

        I was also going to suggest reception work. I work for a state agency that gets a lot of calls from people who don’t know who else to call. The front desk person fields all of those and refers them to someone who can help. I’m sure they have a giant notebook of resources developed by the people who’ve held the job over time so it’s not that they have to carry it all in their head.

        The people who call are sometimes very unhappy, worried, lost and hoping someone will be kind and helpful. 21 years of being able to deal with people on the phone is a serious amount of experience to bring to a role like that. And as a public agency we’re set up for any accommodations people might request. Utilities, cable companies, places people have to deal with whether they want to or not could all have a potential need like this.

        Reply ↓
  97. Scrimp*

    How do you deal with it when a coworker is fired suddenly?

    I am on a small team in a relatively new business, and a coworker was fired completely out of the blue. It must have been a very serious offense, as that coworker was also trespassed from the premises.

    The management team has said they can’t really tell us anything about it (which is good of course) but I still have questions! I don’t necessarily even want the answers, I just want to ask the questions.

    I am feeling pretty anxious about it all I guess.

    So far I made up a story where it makes sense why the coworker (well, former coworker) was fired, and I don’t have to change the way I feel about them. While my nice little story seems pretty unlikely, so does every other not-so-nice story I can come up with. I just can’t reconcile what happened with what I know of the coworker.

    Reply ↓
    1. Scrimp*

      Update for anyone who reads this far: I found out what Coworker did. It was just boring, humdrum, run-of-the-mill stealing shitloads of product. Disappointing for many reasons, really.

      Reply ↓
      1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

        Sorry to hear that about your co-worker. I understand how destabilizing it feels when someone is “exited” suddenly. Probably will be something that takes awhile to process.

        Reply ↓
  98. Blackness*

    Hoping it’s not too late for this to be noticed. I have a job interview on Tuesday. Yesterday I woke up and one of my eyes was noticibly red. I went to the doctor and she said it is almost certainly some kind of allergy and definitely not contagious. She gave me some drops to try but so far they haven’t helped too much. My question is, should I reassure the people in the interview that it’s not contagious? I know one of them has small children so she might be worried about pink eye if I don’t say anything. Or is it better to not say anything unless someone asks about it?

    Reply ↓
    1. Rainy*

      See how it does on Monday, and if it’s the same or worse, I’d think about reaching out to your contact. I’d say something like, “Just fyi, I currently have a mild allergic reaction that is making one of my eyes super red. I’ve been to the doctor and it’s not pinkeye and I don’t feel ill at all, but I wanted to give you a heads up in case the committee would prefer to reschedule.” They may feel like it’s not worth the risk and prefer to put it off a few days, or they may feel fine about it, but I’d give them a choice that’s not an in the moment kind of thing.

      Reply ↓
    2. Educator*

      I once had someone come into an interview with what looked like a bad rash all over her arms. When we were greeting each other, she smiled and said “sorry I look like I have a rash–if I had known how bad the bugs were right now, I would never have gone camping the weekend before a job interview.” Her tone of self-depreciation and humor was really charming. She did reassure me, but without making a production out of it.

      Reply ↓
    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      I wouldn’t say something in advance – putting off an interview can mean losing that chance for ever.

      I’d wait until you meet them and then say:
      “Please excuse my eye – I’ve been to the doctor and he’s confirmed it’s an allergy, not anything infectious

      Reply ↓
  99. Chirpy*

    Not sure if my previous comment will show up, but long story short, it’s been a rough day with absolutely zero support or help from my manager. I would really appreciate some stories about good managers who are supportive and actually listen to requests for help, because I’ve never had one.

    Reply ↓
    1. Blackness*

      I’m really sorry to hear that you’re not being supported. I’ve been there (my previous supervisor was both a terrible manager and an awful human being) and I know how rough it is.

      My current supervisor is highly supportive and has always made it clear that I can come to her at anytime for help. Last year my mom was in a bad car accident, and my supervisor pulled me aside and said feel free to take off whatever time you need to take care of your mom. I don’t always feel like I have the best relationship with my supervisor, but a lot of that is due to having to unlearn old behaviors and thought patterns that I learned while I was working under the Wicked Witch of the West. So I’m working on learning better communication skills and better ways of coping when I’m frustrated, etc.

      Reply ↓
    2. Grateful4this*

      My boss, who is normally pretty stuck on his own agenda, took the time to a) remember that we had colleagues traveling to/from London during the fire at Heathrow, and b) write to them to check in and assure them that they should put whatever (reasonable) expenses they needed on the company card. That coverage would have been true regardless, but it was so thoughtful of him to reach out during what must have been a stressful time!

      Reply ↓
  100. KM*

    Hoping I’m not too late for someone to see this. I’d just like some outside perspective.

    I work for a nonprofit that provides services for several local businesses. Most of my coworkers use these ‘friends of the org’ in their personal lives as well. I’ve always been a bit uneasy with it. One of our main clients is a veterinarian who’s very well liked by management. Recently, my dog has been experiencing a pretty serious health issue and it’s heartbreaking but I’m starting to have quality of life conversations with my current (different) vet. Thing is, I’m experiencing A LOT of pressure to take him to the vet the org has a relationship with. I’d honestly rather not because I don’t want to worry about how medical decisions I’m making for my beloved pet are impacting my career trajectory and my coworkers are acting like I’m being unsociable and needlessly distant for it. Am I? Because this feels like a reasonable boundary to set to me.

    Reply ↓
    1. Enough*

      It’s one thing to consider one of these ‘friends’ when you are looking for someone but it makes no sense to change when you have a good existing relationship. I also wouldn’t be likely to use one of these people. I wouldn’t go to the drug store that my neighbor was the pharmacist for. And it seemed a little weird when my dentist and I ended up with kids in the same preschool. I had been going to his practice for about 7 years by then and fortunately our kids were not the same age.

      Reply ↓
    2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      It is very intrusive and outrageous to pressure you to change vets. I’d be surprised if those pushy coworkers have dogs or cats themselves (that they actually love rather than merely have as a lifestyle accessory)

      I understand you don’t feel able to bluntly tell them to MYOB, so I’d say something like:
      “DogName and I have a longstanding relationship with our vet which is a great comfort to me now that DogName is so poorly and may need to be put to sleep. Please understand this is such an emotional time for me and I just can’t cope with discussing this any more”

      Try to stay sociable in other office chitchat, just shut this topic down if they raise it again:
      “Sorry, I’ve told you why I won’t change vets. Please stop asking because it is upsetting when DogName is so ill”

      Also, if they are just coworkers, does this really impact your career? If it’s just worry about being coldshouldered, then they are not a social group worth keeping in with.
      Any remotely decent manager should not penalise you for this, so if one of them is a manager then explain as above.

      If anyone is callous enough to still persist, then I’d just ignore them and prioritise my pet and my emotional wellbeing.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bike Walk Bake Books*

        This is a great script. People develop professional relationships with service providers for all kinds of reasons. Being involved with your workplace is one way, yes, but not the only way.

        You might add a comment about how you’re sure they’re a great vet and if someone were to ask for a recommendation you would have an opportunity to mention that this vet supports the organization you work for. (Having such an opportunity and actually acting on it are two separate things and this statement doesn’t put you under any obligation.)

        I wonder if they’d get it if you compared this suggestion to changing a doctor you trust to someone who seems nice but has no track record with you personally. You have no reason to change on the chance that it might be better, especially midstream with treatments.

        Reply ↓
    4. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Thinking about this some more, maybe unpack why this ongoing habit of interactions makes you uneasy. Do you feel as if there’s a quid pro quo understanding, that these businesses won’t continue to use your organization’s services if staff don’t become customers? Is that something you worry about on your own or something that’s being said explicitly? That’s a serious concern to discuss with your manager.

      Turning this around to test thinking about individual and organizational interests interacting, I used to run a nonprofit and definitely bought wine for my personal use from the winery that donated a bunch of wine to our big annual fundraiser. They didn’t know I did this; I was buying at a store. I did it out of appreciation for their generosity. We’d have multiple donors in the same business categories so I couldn’t have done that for every donor–wouldn’t have multiple lawyers, for example. If your organization provides services for multiple businesses of the same type you’d have the same dilemma if you did want to take your personal transactions to business partners–which one?

      And what if a business stops using your organization’s services? Do your coworkers all plan to pull their personal business as some sort of punishment? If one of your coworkers has a bad experience as a customer or client will that affect how they do their job to support that business’s needs? They may not have thought through the downside of being so enmeshed.

      Reply ↓

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