open thread – March 7, 2025

by Alison Green on March 7, 2025

It’s the Friday open thread!

The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on any work-related questions that you want to talk about (that includes school). If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to take your questions to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. A Simple Narwhal*

    My company uses hot-desking, and you’re required to book a desk each day using the online reservation system (available in any browser or an app everyone’s company phone has). And yet I keep walking up to my reserved desk to see someone sitting at it. It’s mostly the same guy, and if he sees me he looks apologetic and usually makes some offer to move. But he doesn’t always see me, and there’s always been an available desk nearby so I don’t say anything or take him up on his offer to move. And yet it frustrates me to a level I’m not proud of.

    What can I do to not be mad about it? It’s only ~once a week (I’m in the office three days) and I always find a different seat, so why does it bother me this much? If it was every single time or if I was unable to find another desk I would definitely say something to him – but for what it is now saying something to him feels petty and not worth the effort. My annoyance usually disappates by the time I finish setting up my desk, I’d just love to not feel it at all and just shrug it off.

    (Fwiw I am arriving on time, he apparently just arrives earlier. I also commute by a train that comes only once an hour, so I’m not able to get in any earlier without the transit system changing.)

    1. geek5508*

      has it occurred to you that when he displaces you from your assigned desk and you go elsewhere, you could be displacing someone else?

        1. Audrey Puffins*

          Possibly helpful actually, if it helps shift Narwhal’s mindset from “I feel petty to be annoyed by this” to “actually that’s a great point, it’s to EVERYONE’S benefit if I speak up”

        2. PFW*

          OP could use that as an argument to push back on this guy, though. It’s not petty to say something if there’s a concern it’s causing issues for others.

          1. Justme, The OG*

            That’s true, but that doesn’t really seem like geek5508 commented as they did.

                1. Caller 2*

                  Same here. But for the record I don’t think it’s petty to expect the guy to move from the booked desk even if there isn’t a risk of displacing someone else from their assigned desk.

          1. Yankees fans are awesome!*

            It could be phrased differently. The tome is as though the OP is the problem and not the guy displacing OP in the first place.

            Also, speaking of policing…

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        I use the reservation system to find another open desk, so I’m definitely not stealing anyone else’s seat!

        1. Phony Genius*

          Since you can book a desk once you are in the office, and you’re asking how not to be mad about it, could you wait to get to the office and book a desk that you know is actually vacant?

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            Oh that might a good thing to try! If a good seat is open ahead of time I’ll book that because it’s worth reserving, but if only bad seats are available I’ll just wait until I get in because it’s not worth getting annoyed over a desk I don’t even like sitting in.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              Also, from your description, he sounds like he’s deliberately taking your desk, specifically. Whether he’s mentally in fifth grade and thinks this is flirting or he’s a petty jerk, who knows, but that’s how it seems.

              So if you wait until you get to the office, then book, he’ll either be standing around waiting or have given up and booked his own desk. Either way, the game’s over.

              1. Board Member*

                I would be intrigued to know why he wants that specific seat, so much so that I might have to ask him. “Is there some reason you always want this seat but never reserve it?” I would just want to know!

                1. fhqwhgads*

                  Yeah. If the process is “reserve it” then, even if it’s easy for you to find a new one, it’s worth telling him, yo, I reserved that. Did you forget to use the reservation system? Like it doesn’t need to be making a big deal out of it when you can easily sit somewhere else. But just asking him in a puzzled “they asked us to do this thing, I did the thing, why are you not doing the thing?”

        2. Observer*

          How long does it take you to find another seat? If it’s only a minute or two, then maybe @Phony Genius’ suggestion would be the best way to deal with it.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Well, it’s rude — he’s ignoring the system, and he’s apparently chosen you as his patsy. I’d be pretty annoyed by it too. Just to clarify, are you booking the desk before he arrives at the office? And, he doesn’t have to log that he’s taken that desk? I’d ask him “hey, does your phone not update? I’ve reserved the desk, but apparently it didn’t show up for you” to give him the benefit of the doubt once. But… those are the rules of the office, and he should follow them, especially when it’s at your expense!

      1. WheresMyPen*

        I wouldn’t even give him that excuse; to me it sounds a bit passive-aggressive or patronising. I’ve had this happen to me, so I go up to them and say ‘hey, I’ve got this desk reserved’ and normally that’s enough to make them move.

        1. gyrfalcon17*

          Exactly this. It’s not petty to want the reservation system to be respected. The system keeps people from having to scrounge around for a desk first thing every time they arrive at the office. By plopping down at whatever desk he wants, he is acting like his comfort and convenience are the only things that matter, which is wrong (rude, inconsiderate, entitled, oblivious, …)

          A Simple Narwhal, do you struggle to stand up for yourself in other situations? Do you tend to be a people pleaser? This seems like a perfect situation to start practicing asserting yourself.

          What are you afraid could happen if you start (a) (milder) accepting his offer to move every time? or (b) (more assertive) having him move every time, whether or not he sees you first and/or offers?

        2. Grenelda Thurber*

          Same here. I’d just make him move. I’d guess after, say, 3-10 times, you probably wouldn’t have to deal with him anymore. You’re rewarding him for this bad behavior. Maybe his goal is to get some of your attention however he can?

        3. Clisby*

          Yeah, I don’t see the quandary. OP reserved the desk, somebody is sitting there, tell them they need to move. There’s nothing petty about this.

          1. I didn't say banana*

            and the third or fourth time you have to ask him to move, it would be reasonable to say “really? again?”

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        I either book the desk the night before or days before, so it’s definitely before he’s in the office. He’s definitely not logging that he has that desk because when I have to book a second desk in that moment my original reservation is still in place and you can’t double book an area.

        I suppose there’s the chance that he’s booking the desk for a time earlier than my reservation (the default “full day” reservation is 8:30-5:30) so it appears open at 8am (or whenever he arrives, I don’t know his schedule) and he’s just unaware that his reservation ends at 8:30, but if so then he wouldn’t look apologetic when I come to claim the desk, right? I could try booking the desk for an earlier time than I use it and see if that changes anything.

        1. Rainy*

          I think he’s probably just not reserving a desk period and expecting everyone else to accommodate him. Take him up on his offer to move sometime and see what he says.

          1. Ann O'Nemity*

            Yes, this. I’d just say something like, “Hey [Name], I actually reserved this desk in advance. Would you mind relocating so I can get set up? I appreciate it.”

            If you want to address the pattern, something like, “I’ve noticed this has happened a few times, and it’s been a bit disruptive. I’d really appreciate it if you could check your reservations before setting up in the future.”

          2. Frank Doyle*

            Right, why don’t you just take him up on it? Maybe once he’s inconvenienced a few times by having to pack up all his stuff, he’ll start booking the desks properly. You’re not making it inconvenient to him, so he’s not going to change his behavior.

          3. HoundMom*

            This happened to me recently. I am rarely in the office but had followed the rules and booked the desk. The Office Manager was walking me to the station and found someone there. He is there regularly. He was not interested in moving and honestly, I did not care. The OM though told him to MOVE NOW. She says the reservation system is part of their back-up in case of an emergency situation and how they track the utilization of the desks and equipment. She was adamant that everyone must use the system. He moved and I was in awe.

        2. shrinking violet*

          That might work. But wouldn’t it be simpler to just tell him you had reserved that desk? Looking apologetic tells me he knows perfectly well that he didn’t reserve it.

      3. Mallory Janis Ian*

        We had to deal with that in relation to reserved conference rooms at a previous office. Enough people complained about finding squatters in their reserved spaces at the reserved time that those of us in charge of maintaining the reservations took it upon ourselves to introduce a strict “no squatting” rule (“Yes, even if you think it’s just going to be for a moment.” “Yes, even if you don’t see anyone else in there at the time.” “Yes, even if your class needs to split into small discussion groups and the room is empty.” . . . ). We made ourselves responsible for watching the rooms and if the occupant didn’t match the reservation, we would run them out and make them make a reservation.

        If this is a self-monitored reservation system, unfortunately you will have to be your own bouncer. But if there is a staff member or group of staff who oversee the system, they might adore to enact a general rousting policy (I know we did once we finally became fed up with the squatters).

        You can’t have a nice system if everyone acts like they’re the exception to everything (can you tell I’m still aggravated all these years later Lol).

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          The phrase “This is why we can’t have nice things!” definitely comes to mind!

    3. Colette*

      Ask him to move. “Hey, I’ve got that desk booked, can you move please?”

      Or book a different desk.

      1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

        Yep, this. He’s offering to move, take him up on it. He keeps taking your deal because he knows he can.

        1. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

          eta: That last line was not meant to be blame-y towards you; he’s being an ass

        2. Mallory Janis Ian*

          That’s what I’m on the side of — make it inconvenient for him to inconvenience you and aggravating for him to aggravate you.

    4. Bookworm*

      I don’t have to hot desk (in the office 5 days), but it seems to me this is like booking a plane seat. You want the one you booked! Is he booking another desk and just prefers this one?

      1. LadyMTL*

        This, exactly! The whole point of booking a desk is to get that specific desk. I’d definitely be asking him to change desks, and if he keeps doing it I’d maybe talk to the boss / manager about it.

        1. Bookworm*

          It’s just like when I booked an aisle seat and got there to find my seat occupied by the middle seat’s girlfriend. They wanted me to take HER *middle* seat in the next row. Heck, no when I PAID for the aisle seat. Had to get flight attendants involved. Sharp elbows on the arm rest during the flight stopped the middle seat guy complaining. To the OP, definitely get management involved if this guy either isn’t booking a seat or doesn’t use the one he booked.

    5. All cats*

      It bothers you because you’re doing what you’re supposed to and he isn’t. If it happens again, I would ask him if he’s having any trouble with the reservation system. That will either open up a dialogue in which he says, yes, actually, I could never figure out XYZ, do you know how to do it? Or it will embarrass him enough that he will stop taking your desk.

    6. Magdalena*

      Why not tell him to move?
      He’s breaking a social contract and you’re letting him go away with it.
      You obviously do mind or you wouldn’t be irritated.
      Allow yourself to say, Excuse me but this is a desk I booked, please find a different one.

      1. Poise 'n Pen*

        “Where is your reserved seat? Because I reserved this one.” And I’d wait til he pulled up the app.

    7. Audrey Puffins*

      I’d be frustrated by it, to the point that I would be plastering on a bright smile and “apologetically” explaining that this is my reserved desk, so I’ll go and make a cup of tea while he moves his stuff. I’m conflict avoidant, but I’m apparently more of a stickler for people sitting in their correct seats (I’m a *joy* at the cinema) so I would just speak up as often as I needed to. If that specific desk is that important to him, why doesn’t he simply book it first?

      1. i like hound dogs*

        Okay, thank you for confirming that I’m not the only one. My husband always wants to do the “book nosebleeds then move up” strategy and I HATE worrying that I’m taking someone’s seats. The number of times I’ve had to be apologize and move is way too many. I’m going to start standing my ground to just sit where we booked.

      2. Clisby*

        Why apologetically? I don’t mean yell at him, just tell him matter-of-factly that he’s at the wrong desk.

      3. ashie*

        This would be my strategy too, though I wouldn’t walk away. I’d just do the kindly brontosaurus hover while he collects his stuff and leaves.

      4. Workerbee*

        I wouldn’t even do the faux-apologetic tone. This guy _knows_ what he’s doing or he wouldn’t be apologetic / offer to move (without intending to follow through).

        Also, I’m just an internet stranger, but I was struck by your sarcastic emphasis on how you’re a joy at the cinema. It’s entirely appropriate to expect to sit in the seats you paid for. Let the seat-stealers be the ones feeling awkward.

    8. CherryBlossom*

      Part of the reason it might be bothering you is because you’re doing things by the book, and he’s just plopping down wherever he wants. That’s why it would bother me, at any rate.

      As for what you can do about it; start taking him up on his offer to move. You can be as warm and polite as you’d like in tone, but be firm in that you did reserve that desk so you do, in fact, need it. He knows what he’s doing is wrong, so make him correct it. After a while, the message should stick.

    9. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Is this always happening with a particular desk that lots of people like for some reason? Such as closest to the kitchen, quietest, is extra large, no glare, window view, etc?

      Since you don’t want to make the effort of doing the airplane/sports stadium/theater move of “Hey, I think you’re in my seat, lets compare tickets”, ask yourself which is more annoying: (a) just booking a less desirable desk in the first place, or (b) booking the good desk and then having to take that less desirable desk because of a squatter.

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        I’ll have to keep tabs on if this only happens with a particular desk, but the most recent occurrence wasn’t at a particularly “good” desk. It was probably just the first one he saw as it’s in a more exposed location, but honestly it’s one of my least favorite spots! It just happened to be the only one in the area available when I booked it earlier in the week. (Others had opened up when I had to rebook a different desk in the moment.)

        Actually now that I think of it this may only be happening at desks in a certain location, because I have asked people to move when my booked good desk gets stolen, but I’m less willing to ask someone to move from a crappy desk. Like how I’d be less inclined to fight over a reserved middle seat on a plane but I’d absolutely ask someone to move out of my reserved aisle or window seat.

        1. gyrfalcon17*

          It sounds elsewhere that you’ve found a solution you like: book good desks in advance, where you’re willing to speak up and claim your desk; but if there’s only bad desks, wait to book until you get to the office, because you don’t like having to speak up to claim a bad desk.

          Independently though, on airplanes, do you check with the middle-seat stealer so that you go sit in *their* abandoned seat? Because if you don’t then you’re just bumping the problem down to someone who has the seat you move to: e.g. maybe they’re traveling with someone and actually want their pre-booked middle seat?

          1. A Simple Narwhal*

            The airplane scenario is more of a hypothetical, I honestly can’t remember the last time someone took my seat on an airplane. I suppose in this imaginary scenario I would have them confirm what their real seat was, and if the other seat was right nearby, and I wasn’t traveling with anyone I wanted to sit near, otherwise I would ask them to move.

            Oh and if they weren’t a dick about it lol. Soooo it’s really not a perfect comparison ha.

            1. UStransplant*

              Actually, it is a perfect comparison. Show up, someone is in your booked seat -“oh hey, I think you’re in my booked seat. Which seat did you book?” The only difference is, in your case, not everyone is arriving at once, so you have to presume that all those other desks are taken or you need to go rebook your seat. Not calling him on “taking your seat” is actually making you do that work twice.

    10. cmdrspacebabe*

      I’m also having this problem semi-regularly and while I have not quite gotten there yet, I’m working my way up to an “Oh, are we double-booked? I thought I had this one today!”

    11. Not A Manager*

      Why do you reserve the desk you do? Is there anything favorable about the location or setup of the desk? What happens when you sit at a desk you didn’t reserve? Is it more inconvenient for you in some way? Does it inconvenience other people?

      If your response is JUST “there are rules and this guy isn’t following them,” I sympathize. I have a really strong reaction to petty rule-breaking. But I would try to let that go. I’d just assume that you can, completely cost-free, sit somewhere else and avoid nannying him.

      But if there’s ANY other reason you prefer the desk you reserved (convenience to you, not inconveniencing someone else, whatever), then I’d just walk up to the desk and pleasantly say, “Sorry, there’s been a mixup. I think I reserved this desk today.” I wouldn’t apologize or explain beyond that.

      1. Not A Manager*

        Now I see that you need to take the time to cancel your current reservation and book a new desk. In my mind, this is not only an inconvenience, but it’s explicitly work you need to undertake on his behalf, because he can’t be assed to book his own desk. I’d definitely ask him to move.

      2. A Simple Narwhal*

        I don’t reserve the same desk each time, and at least in this case the desk I had booked I would consider a “bad” location – it’s more exposed, so I’m guessing that it was just the first open one he saw when he walked in. I think if it’s a bad desk I’m not really interested in “fighting” for it, but I have asked people who’ve stolen my reserved desk in a “good” location to move. And even though they’re usually ok about moving, you can definitely tell they’re annoyed.

        There’s not really a cost involved with finding a new desk, but it is annoying. I have a long commute that involves public transportation and walking, so by the time I make it to the office all I want to do is put my bag down, take off my coat, and sit. But if someone’s at my desk that means I either have to wait for them to gather all of their stuff and move, or I have to find another open desk, check the online system to make sure that it’s free (which isn’t hard but the login has been finicky for me lately), and book it before I can sit down. And maybe it’s only a few minutes, but it’s just one more thing that makes my mornings harder. Like it makes his morning easier to not have to use the reservation system, but he’s sloughing that responsibility off on me, who now has to use it twice.

        This is not the end of the world, nor is it my biggest problem at work, but I am glad to hear that I am not just a petty jerk to be frustrated by this!

        1. gyrfalcon17*

          Being annoyed *is* a cost. Having to wait to get settled after your commute *is* a cost. This is *not* a cost-free situation for you. And it’s entirely fair to ask him to bear *his* fair share of the costs of the hot-decking/reservation system by, y’know, actually using it.

          You’ve mentioned that if it’s a “good” seat you will ask the person to move. So I would just start asking a seat-poacher (Bob, or anyone else), to move *every* *single* *time*. That makes your life easier because you don’t have to decide “is this seat good enough to ask for?” Instead, you just have a standard procedure that you follow every single time, without having to spend mental effort on if it’s ok to claim your seat or not. It’s always ok.

        2. goddessoftransitory*

          Somebody’s petty here, but it’s not you, who are using the system as required and intended!

        3. RC*

          How about: if there’s a good desk (you’re willing to speak up about) in advance, then book it days earlier, but if it’s only bad desks at that time then wait until your commute to see if a better one opened up (presuming you have signal on the train), since it sounds like that happens not-infrequently? Not sure if that would help or not since the main problem seems to be people not using the system, period, but could maybe raise your chance of a good desk at the end of it?

    12. Annony*

      Is he always taking the same desk? If so you basically have two options:
      1. Ask him to move every time. You get your desk and hopefully it eventually gets inconvenient enough for him that he stops trying to steal your desk.
      2. Book a different desk. Accept that he is going to squat at that desk regardless of who books it and avoid the issue.

      If it is a different desk each time:
      1. Option 1 is still valid.
      2. Ask him why he keeps sitting at the desk you reserve. This lets you figure out the root of the problem and lets him know that it is a problem.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Is this fight worth having, is what occurs to me here. He’s a guy, they have that entitlement thing going on, and he seems determined to take that desk regardless of the booking system. I’d personally avoid booking the desk because it’s not worth fighting over. Of course, that’s assuming it’s the same desk.

        If he’s taking every desk that YOU use….well, that’s worse and he’s picking a fight :/

    13. HannahS*

      If you’ve reserved the desk, interrupt what they’re doing and ask them to move every single time. Over time it’ll stop happening.

      2. Zona the Great*

        Yep! And honestly, after this many times, I’d probably just gesture with my thumb while saying, “beat it”.

    14. The Pet from the Resume*

      I assume the system exists for a reason (limited desks) and if you “follow the rules” then you book the desk you switch to before you sit down. You have every right to be annoyed.

      The solution is to walk up to him, ask him to move because you booked this desk in advance every single time it happens. And then you can add, “do you not understand how to use the desk booking system?”

      If you do it every time it happens it becomes worth his while start booking the desk or at least stop picking the one you usually book.

    15. umami*

      Maybe just reserve a different desk? That way you don’t have to feel anything about what he’s doing, and you can be sure that no one has booked the desk you move to.

      1. Monotonal Chairs*

        Two theories that I haven’t seen mentioned yet:

        1) He’s flirting with, stalking, or hiding from someone who sits near that desk and does not want his name listed on the reservation list.

        2) He doesn’t know how to use the system and at this point, is afraid to ask.
        2b) He is not in the system yet or at all. perhaps he is a corporate spy?@

        1. Names are Hard*

          To go along with your point 2, I wondered if he was reserving a desk and just couldn’t figure out where that desk actually was located or didn’t realize that a reservation was tied to a specific location. I’m assuming that’s not it or he wouldn’t offer to move with the OP showed up, but I know lots of people that are horrible with directions of all types and trying to figure out on a floor plan which spot they were supposed to be in would just not happen.

      2. gyrfalcon17*

        A Simple Narwhal has said it’s different desks.

        There’s no reason for A Simple Narwhal to change what they do for someone who can’t be bothered to use the reservation system.

    16. Mornington Crescent*

      What system/app are you using to reserve desks? I’m looking into a system like this for a new office and want to find something that can let us book desk space, and there has to be a more elegant solution than a spreadsheet!

      1. Anon82*

        Where I work we use an app/site called Tactic. It can connect to Teams, or you can just use the site to make reservations, plus it shows the floorplan.

    17. NothingIsLittle*

      Hey, Narwhal, I’m going to recommend Alison’s patented “treat this like a legitimate problem strategy.” Next time this happens, “Oh, did you also book this desk? We should contact whoever about that! You didn’t? Oh, did someone take the desk you booked? Oh you just didn’t book at all? This has happened a lot, can I help you book a desk? The system can be confusing.” You have to shift the discomfort of the situation to him or he isn’t going to meaningfully understand that he’s causing a problem.

    18. Ms. Whatsit*

      We all get frustrated over things like this, sometimes disproportionately. But I think you need to address it with him or else find a way to let it go. Right now you mind, but not enough to say anything to him in the moment, so for him it’s a non-issue while for you it’s snowballing. That’s actually not fair to either of you (I wouldn’t love to find out that someone resented me for something that they never told me bothered them).

      I’d really suggest politely letting him know you’ve booked the desk, and then you can observe that you book it regularly, but haven’t asked him to move, but that you’d like to be able to rely on being able to use the desk you booked. Then see what happens. Maybe he’ll start using the online booking system and scoop you, maybe he’ll move, maybe if it’s a great spot you can come to an agreement to alternate weeks.

      If you don’t want to do that, and assuming it’s the same desk every time, then I’d suggest booking a different desk, so your expectations are already adjusted and are more likely to be fulfilled. I think that would be easier to adjust to and help you let go of it. Good luck!

      1. Workerbee*

        Eh, the majority of this advice is putting a whole lot on the OP to not only do extra work, but to manage someone else’s feelings for them.

        In this specific case, this guy has chosen to sit at a desk that isn’t his. That is why, when he sees OP, he acts apologetic and murmurs about moving without following through with the actual moving.

        So the whole “They never told me explicitly that it bothered them, how could I possibly be expected to divine this” argument does not apply. Let the devil lose this advocacy.

        This guy is depending on OP being “nice” and not cause what a misguided society would deem a fuss.

    19. OctoChicken*

      What incentive is there for him to change his behavior if no one calls him on it? It isn’t a one-time occurrence and is a pattern, so it likely would be worth the effort to speak up.

    20. RagingADHD*

      Why should you have to reserve twice to enable him to avoid reserving at all?

      You will be less mad if you just take the desk you reserved and let his behavior be his own problem. You aren’t “making” him move. He is setting himself up to have to move by not using the system the way it was intended.

      There’s no need to be mad – just let him be the one inconvenienced, and he can solve the problem he created for himself.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Exactly! You’re doing the right thing twice so he doesn’t have to, Narwhal! He’s making your first task, every single time, accommodating him. That is not cool.

    21. Lemon*

      OMG I would literally quit a job that required me to both hot desk AND book a desk DAILY? Hard pass! I don’t understand why companies don’t realize this sort of thing is really disruptive…you could be like, making the company money instead of worrying over this guy if they just made a dang schedule and assigned you a seat.

      2. Mutually Supportive*

        We hot desk and book daily and it’s really not a big deal. You can book a whole month in advance and people who are in often usually book the same desks, everyone else takes the gaps. As long as people remember to un-book if their plans change, everything is fine. A pre set schedule wouldn’t work for us because we have complete flexibility of which days we go in, depending on where else we need to be for work or which days we’d prefer to be at home.

    23. Workerbee*

      You’re approaching this from the wrong angle.

      This situation has ZERO to do with you “being petty”.

      This guy is CHOOSING to bypass the system and displace a colleague – you. He wouldn’t look apologetic or make his half-assed offer to move if he wasn’t fully cognizant of his CHOICE. Instead, he expects you to just let him sit there since he’s already there, depending on the age-old trope of people not wanting to cause a fuss.

      You then add to your workload every time you reset your expectations, find another seat, and spend time thinking you have no right to be frustrated. All the while he keeps sitting there and keeps doing it.

      So yeah: Every time this guy does this, walk up to him, state that you reserved it, say Yes when he offers to move, wait until he does it.

      Return frustration and awkward to sender.

      2. Chauncy Gardener*

        This 100%! Put all the effort back on him. You should not be rebooking a desk because this guy is an ass.

    24. Admin of Sys*

      I’d frame it as a problem with the tool. I assume the system is pretty easy to use – hopefully getting called out as to being incapable of using it will get him to stop. Definitely bring it up though.
      Something like : I reserved that desk yesterday – is it not showing on the reservation system?
      It shows on my app – are you having trouble with the desk reservation system? I’ve noticed you’re often in my reserved seat when I come in. If the app isn’t working on your system for some reason, I can walk you through it, or we can talk to IT!
      ie Don’t frame it as him being inconsiderate, frame it as a skill (or technology) issue. Obviously, he’d not be so rude as to avoid using the documented system, so either he can’t follow the directions or there’s something wrong and it should get looked at. But either way, it lets him know he’s getting caught without framing it as a personal choice. Which hopefully will spur change on his part.

    25. Quinalla*

      I would just ask him to move every time, that is likely the only way he might actually start using the reservation system. Just say, Oh hey, I did reserve the desk so can you find another?

      I think you are getting made because you are not having him move even though he is offering. Stop doing that and you won’t feel angry about it.

    26. No desk*

      Can he see who booked the desk or just see that it’s been booked? Is it personal or is he just not checking the system?
      Tell him you’ve got the desk booked and have him move. You could try “are we doubled book, lets compare schedules.” But you’ll sound more confident if you state you’ve booked the desk.

      If he has too move enough he’ll check the schedule.

    27. Wednesday Wishing*

      I’ve got to know- are you booking the same desk all the time? There is something about this desk that he likes. What happens if you books a different desk? What I’m trying to figure out is, is he taking THAT PARTICULAR desk or is he taking YOUR particular desk, the one in your name, no matter where it is? So if you book a different desk will he take that one or not?

    28. appo*

      Speak to him like the adult you are and tell him to move. Sorry if harsh but that’s the literal first and only step to take

    29. Susie and Elaine Problem*

      At least this is just a work station. I’ve had problems at work with reserving a conference room, only to find a colleague has taken it for their own meeting. Sure, go ahead and use the BIG conference room for interviewing a single job candidate, I will move to the SMALL conference room and cram my team of eight into six spots.

      /yes, there is a power/rank differential in play.

      1. Workerbee*

        Ohhh yes. This and the people with offices that have, you know, walls and a door, using up an entire big conference room to make their calls in.

    30. Apex Mountain*

      Does the specific desk matter or is just the principle? If there are plenty of other desks and it doesn’t matter where you sit, I wouldn’t even bother booking in advance, or just book a differnet one

    31. Indolent Libertine*

      If it’s “mostly the same guy,” I actually wonder whether this is explicitly targeted at A Simple Narwhal, as in the guy looks into the system to see which desk Narwhal has booked and then sits at it. Kind of a grown-up version of “pulling your hair means he likes you” (ugh) or “accidentally” winding up by your locker when you’re going to be there.

    32. Debby*

      Narwhal, I think it bothers you because it is no accident-you said this is usually the same guy. In my mind, I would see it as I have to bear the consequences of this guy not preparing by reserving a desk. Have you tried telling him that you would like your desk? You can say it kindly, and I suspect that once he have him move to another desk, then he will stop doing it to you. You have to ask yourself why does it seem petty to you? Your job REQUIRES you to reserve a desk, so it is not petty to ask him to please move.
      I have paid for my seat reservation on a plane, and always ask the person to move! I try to be polite by phrasing is as the person simply made an understandable mistake :) And they have always complied. This guy is going to continue to do this, so long as you let him.

    33. CL*

      I had a similar issue. Same guy was always in whatever desk I had booked, regardless of where it was. Every time it would come up over the course of least a year, he would ask where to go to book a desk. I stopped being accommodating after a while and I would just tell him that I had reserved the desk and he would move.

    34. Caller 2*

      Is the desk you book superior (or at least preferable to you) than the empty desk that you move to when Squatter Guy is in your spot? If yes, then I’d advise you ask the guy to move whenever you get there and he’s occupying your booked desk.

      If there is no difference, why not just book the other desk in the first place? Guy is still in the wrong but if the desks are equally good why make an issue?

      I suspect since you keep booking the same desk you prefer it for some reason, or else why would you keep booking it? If that’s the case, it’s not at all petty to ask Squatter Guy to move.

      I would also add that even if you reason you prefer that desk is tiny, don’t diminish it to yourself. If Squatter Guy also prefers that desk, he can book it himself!

      1. A Simple Narwhal*

        It’s not the same desk every time, the desks are in a grid and when it happens it’s usually a first row desk. I prefer a desk at the back (it’s quieter with lower foot traffic) but sometimes a front row desk is all that’s available when I’m booking ahead of time. My guess is that he walks in and takes the first desk he sees that is open, and sometimes that’s the desk I’ve booked.

        Or maybe he actually likes the front row, we’re a bunch of different roles all crammed into one shared space so I’m sure different people appreciate different things for their workspace. I don’t actually even know his name or what he does! If we had any sort of a working relationship it would be way easier to approach him about this, but outside of this interaction I wouldn’t even know he existed.

    35. Momma Bear*

      Since it keeps happening, talk to him. Find out if it’s a system failure or if he’s not using it and if he’s not using it, why? You should be able to sit in the seat you reserved. It bothers you because you’re doing what you’re supposed to and have a reasonable expectation of sitting in that spot. If he’s not using it and ending up in your spot, hopefully the discussion will make him move on. Best-case scenario is he keeps thinking he’s reserving Seat 6 and it’s Seat 8 and will learn to be more mindful. Next time he makes noises about moving, let him move. Don’t assume the discomfort for him. Return that awkward to sender.

    36. Wellie*

      Have you tried talking to him?
      “You know I always reserve this desk, and you are always sitting here. Why is that?”
      …
      “Well, use the reservation system instead of taking the first desk you see.”

    37. DJ*

      Happens at my workplace too. Not a problem when there were available desks but with a mandate to go in more could become a problem when that starts. Then we will have to ask ppl to move desks if there are none available. Is it something you can raise with your manager/up the chain?

    38. Catherine*

      I’ve found this more and more on planes recently, has anyone else? I always make them move though cos as far as I’m aware it’s a safety thing,
      Plus like, I make the effort to reserve my seat online as soon as check in opens.
      Of course if they have little kids or difficult mobility or something I’d chat to them about what’s easiest. But general public nah that seat is mine.

    39. A Simple Narwhal*

      Thanks everyone for your feedback, it’s good to hear I’m not just a petty jerk!

      Some people think he’s doing it on purpose, but I genuinely think this is a convenience thing, and not targeted or intentionally nefarious. The desks are in a grid, and the issue usually happens when I’ve booked a front row desk. I prefer a back row desk but sometimes a front row is all that’s available when booking ahead of time. My impression is that he just picks the first desk he sees open, and sometimes it’s the desk I’ve booked.

      I don’t know his name or what job he does – there are a bunch of different roles all crammed into one space, and outside this interaction I wouldn’t know he existed. If I had any sort of working relationship (or even knew his name) it would be a lot easier to bring this up. But he’s essentially a stranger to me, so that’s just one more layer to the situation.

      Either way, I really appreciate all of the feedback and advice, I think I’ve got some good ideas on what to do in the future!

  2. Kimmy Schmidt*

    Question for those in higher ed. How is your institution dealing with AI at a broad policy/institutional level? My university keeps saying that we’re “behind” and need to fast track our institutional training, policies, and use. I’ve been getting the message that AI use is the expected norm now at universities. As I have a lot of ethical concerns related to AI, I’m wondering how much room for discussion and pushback I have.

      1. Pay no attention...*

        Same, no policy, but a ton of workshops for faculty and staff on how to use it effectively for different things.

    2. HR Exec Popping In*

      Instead of thinking of it as an either/or, put energy into how AI will be used. You can’t stop the adoption of AI (it has actually been around for decades) but you can help ensure your organization has the right guardrails. For example, we are providing guidance on how and when to use it (for example, not just copy and paste output, not to put highly confidential info in a public AI tool, etc.) and offer training on how to use prompts, how to test it for bias, etc.

    3. Tuckerman*

      Faculty should have AI policies in their syllabi by now. IT should have information out about safety/security/supported systems (like Co-Pilot) and offer trainings.
      Students are using AI. Staff and faculty should be able to instruct them on effective ways to use it to support learning, and how to know what is allowed/not allowed.

    4. Kelly Kapoor*

      My ethical concerns were outright dismissed and I am supposed to fall in line that it’s the next great thing we need to teach our students.

      1. Bumblebee*

        I tried to ask our trainers a question about the environmental impacts and they just said, “Well, that is a thing you could think about.”

        1. Alice*

          Here they are very proud that you can see the number of tokens consumed by any prompt (after the fact). OK, fine, how does the number of tokens convert to energy, water, carbon emissions? Or indeed dollars? Crickets.
          And don’t bother asking about the working conditions of the people who labeled the training data.

        2. topical*

          I don’t think you’ll get very far with this line of thinking. It’s way, way down below ethical issues of plagiarism and making human creativity obsolete.

      2. Tired*

        Yup same here. Thankfully many of my students (on environmental studies type programmes) are also having various levels of doubt about AI and their voices matter more than mine…

    5. NothingIsLittle*

      We have been having a lot of training about integrating AI, but I have not yet been personally suggested that I use it. I also have serious ethical issues around AI, but I’m new enough that I’m not sure I’d feel comfortable pushing back if asked.

    6. 'nother prof*

      Overarching university policy on student use for assignments + explicit direction not to use Chinese AI (unless you’re in comp sci, but they have to get permission/work with ITS/use special computers to ensure data security) + regular email updates + regular workshops/discussions/etc. sponsored by assorted academic sub-units.

      All told, I’m pretty pleased with how attentive and thoughtful they’ve been.

      1. Nesprin*

        Research institution (not a university)- we have a policy on AI/data management, some internal investment in how to use AI safely and effectively, and an internal chatbot for proprietary data.
        I’m pretty happy with our approach as well.

    8. Strict Extension*

      I’m not in higher ed, but a friend who is just told me that she’s introduced assignments where students plug prompts into ChatGPT, then analyze what it’s done well and what it’s gotten wrong. It still gets them engaging with the material in the fashion of the original assignment it replaced, but also educates them on the fact that you can’t always trust what AI is giving you.

      1. Nesprin*

        That’s pretty sharp! I’ve got an academic friend who is using chatGPT for making wrong answers for multiple choice tests.

      3. Sylvia Fisher*

        I did an assignment exactly like this with my students, and also asked them to reflect on pros and cons of using AI. I was really impressed with how thoughtful their answers were.

    9. YNWA*

      I’m at a STEM institution so we’re going all in with AI, but not necessarily GenAI, more AI in general. We’re building an AI Integration Center and we already have a super computer so there’s that. I agree with you that there are so many issues that need to be addressed and figured out. Not just student cheating but also not infringing on the faculty’s academic freedom. So far the administration is maintaining the position that they will not dictate how faculty use it nor demand that faculty use it.

      As far as GenAI goes, our institutional policy is that it’s up to each individual faculty member to establish their own policies. So for some faculty use of GenAI is encouraged, others allow it in narrow contexts (such as Grammerly or Microsoft Editor or even Chat GPT for grammar/spelling check), and some outright ban it and treat it as cheating. The administration so far has backed whatever the faculty member has decided.

    10. CzechMate*

      Yeah, I think part of the issue is you have to think, AI policy in terms of what?

      At my institution, some of the individual schools (ex. School of Engineering, School of Arts & Sciences) have their own policies on AI and academic integrity, but some other departments have said things like, “If you use AI for a project, you need to document how it is used and part of the academic discussion will be about the results you generated and how it compares to old-fashioned pen and paper work.”

      The truth is that much of what we say about AI now is like what we said about search engines 20 years ago. Could it lead to students not doing their own work, and is that an issue? Of course. But we’re also just starting to figure out all the other ways that it can make our work better, so how to we allow room for that?

    11. Green Goose*

      Can you start a committee to have an official policy around it? I went to a conference late last year for people working in education, and we did a day long session on AI, and the presenter recommended that having the policy is important. I think only like 30% of the participants did.

    12. Admin of Sys*

      No idea on the faculty side, but on the IT side, our uni is all-in. But they’re trying hard to make a home grown instance so we can direct students at /our/ model instead of relying on external ones.

    13. Observer*

      I’m wondering how much room for discussion and pushback I have.

      The more fact based and nuanced you are, the better off you will be if your faculty is any good. Because AI is not one thing, nor are the issues related to AI. That’s true of both the ethical and pragmatic issues.

      As a practical matter, if you want to push forward, you are probably best off looking at one or two areas that affect your domain, do some research and then come back to your administration. This way you have something that you can get your arms around, and moving forward in one area is better than not moving forward at all. And since you’ll be coming with some hopefully useful information, you’ll be in a good position to have a place at that discussion.

    14. HailRobonia*

      My org has an AI team/advisory committee. Much of it is focused on vetting tools for security, not necessarily effectiveness (we don’t want AI tools that are sharing data to who-knows who…)

    15. HigherEdQueer*

      I both work in higher Ed at a small private liberal arts college, and am a grad student at another nearby public institution. In my work, we are making decisions about how we as an office are willing to use it; I do career advising (I promise we’re one of the good colleges for this) and we advise against using it to write resumes or cover letters, but do recognize its value in interview prep, like generating possible questions to practice responding to, and in brainstorming—like how to structure your personal statement for grad school, but not actual writing content. My work involves FERPA protection—students have confidentiality when speaking with me, so we have rules against using ai for note-taking in appointments or other confidential interactions. I will say it is a huge challenge to get students to stop using it for resumes and cover letters, especially with students whose area of study is more focused on tech, stem, and business—my colleagues who work with those students are fighting an uphill battle there; I have fewer issues with my cohort, which is lucky. Overall we as a team are approaching this as similar to the calculator/cellphone/laptop discussions. They’re gonna use it; telling them not to and pretending it doesn’t exist isn’t gonna work. The best we can do is teach them how to use it responsibly. There’s also a case to be made for it as a tool for accessibility, which is often how we approach it. The functions I described above are often very useful for neurodivergent folks or people with executive dysfunction, and help scaffold things in a way that makes it more accessible.

      As a grad student at a public university, my faculty members are each kinda making their own policy. I have 1 professor who is generally ok with it if you let her know in the bibliography or source list how and when you used AI, with the understanding that it’s not generating the actual text of your assignment. Spell check, grammarly, using it for brainstorming and outlining, even using it to cite your sources in a particular format is fine, just don’t ask it to write your paper. I have another professor who is pretty old school and says absolutely no AI ever. Not sure how well she’s able to enforce that, though.

      I’d be interested to see what institutions outside of the U.S. say, though, given how completely differently they perceive plagiarism and copyright issues.

      1. Observer*

        I have another professor who is pretty old school and says absolutely no AI ever. Not sure how well she’s able to enforce that, though.

        I know I’m late to this, but just in case someone is still looking at the threads…

        If history is any guide, it’s just not possible for her to enforce such a rule and what she is doing is simply counterproductive. It’s like the folks who made rules that students are not allowed to use spell check. It was a joke and really (and I think to some extent legitimately) damaged the credibility of people who made and tried to enforce such rules.

        And that’s before you even get to the issue of how to define AI. I mean, is spell check AI? What about one the uses the LLMs to *finally* recognize the difference between “spell check” and “spill chuck”?

        Grammarly makes a big to do about using AI to check for things like “tone and voice”. Well, guess what, this is not a new function. Maybe they are doing it better than the old versions of this, but where do you draw the line? How do you even try to draw it?

    16. NonnyMouse*

      Our university policy on AI is that individual departments/schools can have their own policies OR individual instructors can have their own policies. The policies outline appropriate/acceptable AI use in the course/department.

      Violation of a course or department specific AI policy is a violation of the honor code/academic integrity policy and instructors can being integrity charges if AI is misused.

      I like this policy as it allows us to define appropriate AI usage in a course based on the needs of our course design. I don’t allow AI except for grammar checking, but I have colleagues who allow/encourage students to use AI for more technical assignments.

    17. Hyaline*

      Our overall university policy defers to individual departments and/or instructors. So–departments may set their own policies, and individual instructors are required to address AI use in a syllabus policy (several are provided as suggestions, including prohibited, restricted, and allowed options, but the final decision is up to us). Not following that policy means the same system kicks in as for any academic dishonesty/misconduct, and follows a pre-existing system and protocol. I fully agree with the requirement to have a syllabus statement addressing it, as it’s part of clear communication of expectations to students.

      So far–the university has seemed to “push” using/incorporating AI, and is getting a lot of pushback and plain old getting ignored by most departments. So no, it is not the expected norm, and most instructors I know personally are not permitting it in their courses or are heavily restricting its use. The plain fact is that we are, especially in entry-level courses, teaching the fundamentals of a subject and how to THINK in that subject, and you simply cannot outsource that to AI. AI produces a PRODUCT, not learning. The majority of our faculty all get this, the administration see something shiny and do not get why it’s unhelpful–but fortunately, we are winning at this point.

      1. Tired*

        Students can’t use GenAI/LLM well or judge the output for research & writing tasks unless they know themselves how to do the tasks – it’s the same issue as “if companies stop hiring junior engineers because one senior engineer plus a ChatGPT assistant can do the work of a larger team, where will new senior engineers come from?” Writ large

    18. Higher Ed Support Staff*

      We’re a major US public university and it’s largely been left up to the depts to decide whether to have their own policy. I was told by a senior copyright officer that I shouldn’t worry about contravening any university-wide stances because we do not have an official stance, just resources that we’ve developed.

      Leadership is very bullish on AI, and the way we’re sidestepping ethical concerns about copyright/confidentiality (but not, of course, environmental impact) is by creating an in-house LLM. I don’t love that as a solution, and it’s probably not the route I’d have advised, but at least it’s more stable and controllable than encouraging people to use ChatGPT or another third-party app.

      Personally, I have been taking a pretty soft, relationship-focused approach. I ran an info session (very basic “what is AI and how does it work”) at a departmental staff meeting and tried to present concerns in an even-handed way, with the takeaway that “AI” is a term that covers a really wide variety of technologies, it’s not literal magic or anywhere even remotely near human intelligence despite the hype, and it’s important to understand the technical basics of how it works in order to make your own informed choices. I included a full bibliography with reputable research, articles, etc. for reference. The discussion went pretty well; only about 10% of the office admitted to using generative AI/ChatGPT in their work, and I feel more confident that if they have uncertainties or questions in the future, they at least have the tools to learn more or feel comfortable coming to me.

      I don’t know your institution, but I’m pretty confident that it’s simply not going to be feasible or reasonable to push for a blanket ban or an anti-(gen)AI official stance. As a middle manager and an individual, I see my role as providing context, resources, and support–plus putting myself out there as a friendly, nonjudgmental human they can ask “stupid” questions about AI and talk concerns through with. That might not be the role you want to play, but for me, I thought about my background and capacity, and decided that this is the way I felt most ethically comfortable proceeding.

    19. Shepherd Moon*

      Our institution is merely holding many many sessions about AI, but no movement on policy guideleines. “Crafting Policy for Student Use of Artificial Intelligence” at Ohio State University seems to do a good overview.

    20. Rock Prof*

      We’ve had a lot of talking sessions about AI but nothing formal at all from administration or IT. The message has basically been that faculty can do whatever they want in their classes. I might appreciate that stance from an academic freedom angle, but it’s really not very helpful in real life.

    21. Alice*

      You may want to read up on what ICMJE or other professional societies/journals in your area say about using AI and disclosing AI use. (Not that “rules” and “ethics” are the same thing, but it’s good context to have.)

    22. School stuff*

      I’m at the high school level. We’re working on crafting appropriate-use policies for students & staff/faculty.

      AI is in use NOW in the working world. Education ignores that reality at its peril.

      Higher ed especially has a duty to its students to teach responsible use.

      Otherwise we’re doing the SE equivalent of teaching abstinence, which is going to result in the exact opposite positive outcomes we want.

    23. BlueberryGirl*

      We do not have an institution-wide policy on AI. AI is the expected norm now at universities, especially among students. So, every professor needs to be familiar and ideally able to address it, because every semester I’ve taught, at least one student (usually more) is using AI inappropriately. So, we have a whole unit on it.

  3. Audrey Puffins*

    Alison always says that your resume is a marketing document and there’s no point keeping roles on there that aren’t relevant to the job that you’ve applied to. Is this an American viewpoint, or is it more universal? As an office worker in the UK, should I no longer have my early retail roles on my CV, or do the majority of employers expect to see a complete history as opposed to a relevant history?

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      IMWO, it’s all situational. More art than science.

      If it’s germane to your current job search and recent (5 years), it can go.

      If it explains a significant gap (>6 or >12 months, etc), then it should probably stay, even if it’s just a single bullet point, to show “yea, I worked.”

    2. NothingIsLittle*

      FWIW my dad has held many international positions and his resume has always been selective as opposed to exhaustive. I think this may depend on industry: he’s been in consulting.

    3. MsSolo (UK)*

      I’ve mostly worked in the public sector, so I can’t speak to the private sector, but generally if they want the whole history they’ll make that clear (I think most of the roles I’ve applied for since this became a consideration for me have asked for the whole shebang). What I tend to do with older or irrelevant jobs is list the title, employer and the dates, but leave off any other information – depending on the nature of the application method, sometimes I’ll dump them all at the bottom as well. It means there are no gaps in employment, but I’m not wasting space I could put to better use.

    4. Green Goose*

      I want to keep my resume to 2 pages or less so I often omit earlier jobs. For example, I was an English teacher in South Korea for three years but that experience was 16-12 years ago so depending on what I’m applying for, it doesn’t always make the cut. If I’m applying to a job where teaching experience is a helpful skill, then I’d trim down what I put in about my more recent roles and then include the teaching.

    5. Double A*

      It really depends on your field, too. I was poking around teaching job boards and there’s now a notice that if you don’t list every single teaching job you’ve ever had and that’s discovered after you’re hired, you could be fired. Because more barriers for teachers seems like a really swell idea right now.

      Granted that’s for the application system and not your resume, but I just keep them all on my resume so I don’t forget one and then get fired because of it.

    6. Kalros, the mother of all thresher maws*

      I’ll let someone else speak to expectations and norms for the UK market, but my American take on this question is that a resume and a CV are different things and I would not assume that advice for one should necessarily apply to the other.

      1. Hyaline*

        This is my instinct, too–CV implies a more full record and in some cases can run multiple pages; a resume is a highlight reel.

      2. Pay no attention...*

        I this my take as well. I usually hear CV used in academic settings so it would also include sections for speaking engagements, poster presentations, publications including smaller contributions like a chapter in a book, awards, fellowships and professional affiliations, etc.

      3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        I’m a Brit and I think we use the term “CV” where you would say “resume” for most jobs – I don’t know about academia though.

        I used to have a 2-page CV, although some people recommend 1-page only.
        I never included the non-professional jobs I had during the Uni vacations as that was before I started my career and they were not relevant. I was never asked about my ancient history

      4. Rock Prof*

        I think cv and resume are more synonymous in non-US places. In the US, my cv is an all-inclusive document I’ve only used for academic positions.

    7. Lady Lessa*

      When I was job hunting, and working with a recruiter as well, he wanted both a shorter one and a complete one.

      If you are approaching age discrimination, I’d for sure use a shorter one, possibly without dates on education

    8. Annony*

      I think it is more the difference between a CV and a resume. A resume is a shorter document that highlights the relevant part of your work/educational history. A CV is a more comprehensive document.

      1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Audrey Puffins is in the UK, so her CV almost certainly means a US resume, i.e. normally 1 or 2 pages.

    10. kukuru*

      I’m an American, I only keep my resume as one page as I assume that if more work details are needed, the recruiter is probably just going to look me up on Linked.

    11. Storm in a teacup*

      I’m in the UK.
      When I worked in the NHS our application had us list all roles. Once I had been qualified beyond 10 years I stopped listing experience prior to my degree ending as they didn’t make sense to include.
      Now I’m in a corporate environment my most recent CV I just listed my job history as places of work, job title and dates from when I qualified.
      I then had different sections for different types of experience where I listed key examples from across my career eg people management, service development, professional experience, teaching and research experience. I tailor the types of experience based on the role I’m applying for.

  4. Anonymous for this*

    If your manager makes their calendar and all details publicly available and you happen to view information that should probably be confidential who’s fault is that?

      1. BellStell*

        And for an example:
        My former team Head has a calendar that is open because she is ‘so so busy’ and travels unnecessarily so she can brag about being in Japan or wherever, but gets away with a lot of crap. Her medical appts incl the company doctor mandated appt for a work doctor she set up due to her being out on ‘sick’ leave (to verify) are public too because she does not know how to use Outlook.

        1. WeirdChemist*

          She’s the patient in this case, yes? If she shared it herself (or allowed it to be released due to carelessness) then it’s not in violation of anything. Patients are allowed to share their own medical information how they see fit (or on accident in this case). If the medical provider or the company maintaining the medical records allowed the info to be released through their own carelessness, then it’s a HIIPA problem

          2. CeeDoo*

            This happened when a coworker left information regarding her breast cancer diagnosis on our department printer. I debated taking it to her discreetly, but in the end, I just turned that page face down and left it alone.

        2. Mad Scientist*

          Very confused about what you’re trying to say here. Is it a problem that her calendar is public? Are you trying to say her calendar shows where she’s traveling to rather than simply “out of office”? And if so… why does that matter?

    3. Colette*

      Why is fault what you’re focusing on?

      Your manager should safeguard confidential information, and you shouldn’t go looking for information you shouldn’t have. If you were in their calendar for a legitimate reason, you could say something like “Hey, I just wanted to let you know that your calendar is publicly available, when I was booking the teapot meeting I noticed I can see some stuff that should probably be private.”

      1. umami*

        This is where I land. If you have access to your manager’s calendar and you see something you think should be confidential, then you should let them know that you can see it.

      2. Helewise*

        This is where I land. It’s not my business what’s on my boss’ calendar. Sometimes there are medical appointments or similar on there; I treat that confidentially. It’s only relevant because I know that we definitely won’t be able to meet at that time.

      3. Quinalla*

        This! Fault isn’t what is important here, letting someone know that their calendar isn’t private when they likely think it is is the important thing to focus on here.

      4. LingNerd*

        Pretty much exactly how I handled it with someone from HR who was new to the company. I let her know her calendar was public and showed her where the menu options were to change that setting. And then I deliberately did not snoop. It turned out to be a tech issue I think? She had to get IT involved, in any case.

        Thankfully she was in a recruiter role so at a glance the entire thing was basically just “interview with so-and-so” and not any confidential details about current employees

    4. CalendarThinker*

      I’d say very confidential information probably shouldn’t go in calendars (be it the meeting name or descriptions), so if I were to ascribe “fault” (not sure if that’s key here) I’d be thinking of it that way.

    5. Not A Manager*

      I feel there is a backstory here. If you simply “happen to view” that information, that’s their “fault.” If you “happen to discuss” that information with other people, or act on it or refer to it in any way, that’s on you.

    6. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      Theirs if you happen to view it. yours if you see an appointment and open it up to see the details.

    7. NothingIsLittle*

      Because of the way you asked the question, I feel compelled to clarify whether “happened to see” means, “I was trying to schedule a meeting and didn’t need to click into anything to view the confidential details,” “I was trying to see if a particular meeting could be moved, and saw confidential details after opening the window to check,” or “I was snooping in my boss’s calendar and saw something I shouldn’t.”

      Confidential details should never be public-view, but if you were looking at something you had no business to, you’re also at fault. Far more important than fault is letting your boss know so the info can be removed or protected (unless you fear backlash as the messenger).

    8. RagingADHD*

      If you view confidential information and nobody knows you saw it because you keep it to yourself and don’t do anything in response to it, then “fault” doesn’t exist. Like the sound of one hand clapping.

      If you view confidential information and keep it to yourself other than to privately give your manager a heads-up that “Hey, did you realize this is set to public view?” then consideration exists instead of fault.

      If you view information that the manager probably didn’t want to be public but is a matter of whistleblowing / labor action / pay equity, then you can discreetly help others, and if the manager gets in trouble for the leak, that’s their own problem.

    9. Admin of Sys*

      Theirs, but you should likely give them a head’s up that something is more public than they may realize.

    10. HonorBox*

      It is your manager’s fault. But I’d suggest reframing it a bit. While it is their “fault” that you might see something, it would be a helpful thing to tell them that anyone with permission to view their calendar can easily see everything.

    11. Worky Workerson*

      Once long ago, at the start of my career, I was interning for an obviously busy director who had shared their full calendar with all details with me. It even emailed me versions of their calendar invites which I would ignore because the director would accept or decline. On a regular, random Thursday, I see an invite come through with the title “Wine and Cuddles with my Boo” … bahahahahahahahaha. From their spouse, not anyone at work, it wasn’t like that. But I had a good laugh to myself (my desk was away from theirs; they didn’t hear me).
      That’s on the calendar owner on how much to share or not. My current manager has full access to calendars of our whole team, but none of us have access to our manager’s calendar.

    13. DJ*

      The manager should really mark confidential items as private or limit how much details staff can see. There are settings that would enable them to do that.

    14. SMP*

      Focusing on fault is weird. My manager didn’t realize that I could see everything on her calendar. I went to see when she was free for a meeting and saw who she was interviewing for an open position which is confidential in our organization. I messaged her admin to let her know and they changed it so I can see when she’s free or busy only. No fault but I also didn’t spread the interview information around or say anything about what I saw.

      1. Bart*

        I tried to schedule a meeting with my university president and realized I could see details of their meetings. I immediately contacted their assistant to alert them. They were grateful. They were new to the university and didn’t realize the default was to share everything with everyone in the organization. I discovered this with a few other members of the leadership team and then notified IT that they needed to review the calendar settings. No one chose to share everything, so I think it would be unfair to blame them for the situation. But it was my duty to alert them once I saw the problem.

    15. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      Be grateful that it wasn’t a Google Doc with candid assessments of all the employees, including yourself…

      …and don’t ask me why I gave such a specific example.

  5. Kesnit*

    I am the former-public-defender-turned-prosecutor who works in a jurisdiction with an incompetent public defender, Bill. There has been a development in the issue that. . . made things worse.

    Late February, we found out Bill is no longer with the local public defender. We knew this would happen and we all hoped Bill found a job that suited him better. About a week later, we found out what he was doing now. He hung out his own shingle. (It is not uncommon for people who leave the public defender to open their own firm.) My coworkers and I are horrified. It was one thing to try to work with him when we knew he had the experienced PDs backing him up and watching him. Now it feels like watching the start of a car crash. There is no backstop, no back channel conversations we can have with other attorneys. So far, we haven’t seen him working solo in court (since it takes time for cases to work through and obviously he could not take his cases with him). But we believe he is running full-speed towards a Bar complaint, and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Worse, since he is now private, there is nothing stopping him from taking a case that is outside his skill set if he doesn’t realize it it outside his skills.

    He’s a nice guy… Why can’t he go do something that doesn’t involve going to court? Lobbying for prison reform… (A friend of mine and fellow former-PD does that now.) Negotiation. First Amendment work (he used to be a reporter)…

    1. Apex Mountain*

      It doesn’t sound like it’s your problem to deal with. Unless he’s a good friend which it doesnt’ seem like from the post.

      1. Palmer*

        I imagine given Kesnit used to be a public defender, it is not particularly out of concern for Bill. I expect the care is partially out of concern over who Bill inevitably harms by incompetently defending them, effectively denying them a fair trial with a competent defender.

    2. MsM*

      I forget, is Bill good at convincing non-lawyers he knows what he’s doing? If not, the problem may solve itself.

    3. juliebulie*

      This might indeed be the start of a car crash, but I don’t see what you can do except… don’t look if you don’t want to see it? (And be glad he’s not a public defender anymore!) I’m sure you will hear all about it when it finally happens, whether you want to or not. I wish there was a better answer to this, but some people have to make their own mistakes in order to learn.

      1. Kesnit*

        He’s still practicing in my jurisdiction, so there is no way to look away. I’ll be sitting there, watching it in real time.

    4. Rage*

      Yeah, I’m not sure this is anything you need to be worried about…yet. I mean, it’s awful that some clients might wind up harmed because of his actions – but if you don’t have enough to raise a Bar complaint NOW, then the only thing you can do is let it play out until there is enough.

      It’s sort of like when Alison suggests to writers that they stop covering for an ineffective colleague. As long as they keep doing that, in order to keep their project from tanking or the organization taking a hit in the reputation, then as far as management is concerned, there is no problem. Sometimes you have to let things (or people) fail in order to force a response.

    5. allx*

      I’m not familiar with your story so don’t know the reasons why the guy is incompetent at his job, but maybe you could ask for help (for him) from your state’s Lawyers Assistance Program? Most state bars have such programs and while they often are used for substance use/abuse issues, they also provide support for mental health issues. Inquiries/referrals are confidential and preserve anonymity. If that doesn’t seem quite right, perhaps reaching out to your city’s criminal bar section for mentorship/guidance? IDK.

      Presumably, if the guy passed the bar he is compentent to practice law. And to people who wonder whether he can attract clients, the answer is invariably yes, because the public can’t really tell if someone is a bad lawyer unless/until they have experience with one. And in criminal matters, people are in vulnerable positions to start and hope they are hiring someone who can do better for them then they can do thermselves pro se.

      There are so many rules that are easy to run afoul of if you are a bad lawyer (not keeping clients informed; not responding to clients; ineffective assistance; general incompetence; handling matters without appropriate expertise and on and on). If he is a terrible lawyer, he will eventually find himself on the wrong end of an ethics complaint by one or more clients (or reamed out and reported by judges) and possibly suspended or disbarred. Too bad people have to suffer the bad results of his incompetence. It seems like something that the PD should have addressed while he was working there.

      1. Kesnit*

        Bill is a nice guy. When talking to him outside court (even about cases), he’s fine. But as soon as he gets in front of the judge, he cannot run a case. I’ve seen him throw his clients under the bus and make admissions he should not have made. He cannot make a coherent argument. In short, he is a “ineffective assistance of counsel” waiting to happen.

        The local public defender’s office did not leave him out to dry. I know they tried everything they could to make him a competent attorney. Towards the end, he was always sent to court with another PD as his “babysitter.” (My word) This attorney did nothing but watch him and prepare to step in if Bill started going too far off the rails.

        1. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

          Is he a bad courtroom lawyer? Or a bad lawyer period? Because it seems to me like the first problem is somewhat easier to solve.

          1. Kesnit*

            Bad courtroom lawyer. Which is why I mentioned other options that would still let him practice law, but keep him out of the courtroom.

            1. goddessoftransitory*

              I would bet he or somebody close to him has a strong attachment to the notion that “real” lawyers argue cases like Perry Mason or whatever.

            2. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

              Sorry, skimming on my end.

              Yeah, I definitely wouldn’t want to end up hiring him without knowing all this, so if there’s a way of discreetly notifying the bar association…I’d do it. A bad lawyer can just do a lot of damage.

        2. allx*

          Oof. Sound like he has no self-awareness. Courtroom appearance work is not for everyone (esp including me). It is generally considered stressful, and when stressed, people don’t think well on their feet. Maybe check in with LAP wondering if he is experiencing anxiety that interferes with the ability to be effective counsel? IDK. Does he have any friends/colleagues who could honestly critique/question his choice of discipline? There’s no good answers here if there isn’t anyone with (and willing to spend) the social capital to tell him he is in the wrong discipline. But also, he should have figured it out for himself by now after the PD office experience.

          1. Kesnit*

            “But also, he should have figured it out for himself by now after the PD office experience.”

            Yeah, I was really surprised when I saw him in the courthouse, putting himself on the court appointed list. I had hoped that when he left the public defender*, one of the attorneys there would have directed him away from private criminal defense.

            * I do not know if he was fired, if he resigned to avoid being fired, or if he was “talked out” of the office.

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Best to mind your own business at this point. With any luck Bill will find the administrative overhead irritating and/or will fail to generate enough business as a self-employed lawyer to keep himself going for long.

    7. RagingADHD*

      In your position, I would probably find a legal aid / nonprofit group to volunteer with or donate to that could potentially help Bill’s clients after he screws them over.

    8. CzechMate*

      Not an attorney, but my uncle was a private defense attorney turned prosecutor turned consultant who sometimes did public defender work as a favor to the DA.

      Not sure about the district where you are, but in my uncle’s case it seemed like the legal community was small and everyone talked. It could be that a bar complaint is all that will ultimately stop Bill, but in the meantime, it seems like the rest of the legal community could subtly spread the word, “Oh, Bill? Yeah, he’s very knowledgeable about filing paperwork for post-conviction appeals…” or quietly let area social services agencies and community organizations know “you should steer your clients towards these defense attorneys if they’re going to court…”

      1. CzechMate*

        Also good on you for saying, “I’m worried these defendants will have ineffective counsel” as opposed to “Hooray, looks like a these cases are all going to be slam-dunks for the prosecution!”

    9. Strive to Excel*

      Unfortunately from what you’ve described it sounds like having a bar complaint happen is kinda best case scenario. The faster it happens the less of a muddle he’ll end up in.

      I’m sorry. Watching someone slowly crash is always painful.

      1. RLC*

        I’ve seen this with engineers. The best scenario is an official complaint to the engineers’ licensing board. The board will investigate and go from there. Bar Association likely same.

    10. Kez*

      Maybe a fringe opinion, and definitely one that depends on what kind of “running full speed toward a Bar complaint” he’s doing, but… Is there some kind of ethics line/tip-off that you can use to hopefully get him shut down/make his ineptitude public so that clients won’t put their money and freedom on the line with this guy?

      Like, I understand this isn’t your circus and monkeys, and I don’t think that there’s any legal imperative here. There may even be a legal imperative not to intervene. But if there isn’t, I think that there’s a reasonably ambiguous ethical question as to whether you are obligated to try and prevent someone whose circumstances would be harmed by an incompetent defender from walking blindly into that harm and paying for the privilege.

      Does the Bar have any recourse prior to an official complaint? Could a local journalist with some public-records-savvy reasonably find enough evidence to publish once they were anonymously pointed in the right direction? I get that he’s a nice guy, but when we’re talking about vulnerable people handing over cash to receive help, this kind of “whisper network” thing just perpetuates harm to people who aren’t already “in the know” about local lawyer gossip.

    11. me*

      Out of curiosity, is he continuing to do criminal defense work or has he moved on to a different area of law?

      1. Kesnit*

        Still doing criminal defense. When I ran into him in the courthouse, he was in the process of going to each of the Court Clerk’s offices and dropping off notice that he is available for court appointed cases.

        1. Yuck*

          Is this not at the court’s discretion? For instance, my husband can defend everything except Capital Murder and mini-cap cases(Texas). But some attorneys in our county aren’t allowed to do murder cases because the court decided they don’t have the qualifications or experience(they have to set second chair a few times first). In addition, if the Court Administrator sees that John Doe is about to get appointed to a case he can’t handle, she skips John Doe and moves on to the next person in line.

          1. Kesnit*

            Bill was never certified to take juvenile cases, so there is no chance he will be appointed to those. He is certified for misdemeanors and (I presume) felonies, so could go on the court appointed list for those. The way it typically works is that the public defender’s office is automatically appointed when a defendant qualifies for court appointed counsel. If the PD files a Motion to Withdraw (for conflict), the Clerk appoints the next name on the list. In theory, the judges can tell their clerks to alert them when Bill’s name comes up to allow the judge to skip Bill if the case exceeds what the judge feels Bill can do.

            The two problems are that (1) there is no check on any retained cases Bill accepts (though hopefully he is smart enough to decline those he should not handle), and (2) we have a new judge taking the bench in May who has never seen Bill practice and so would not know how bad he is. (That said, the new judge is working with another judge who has seen Bill in action. I would hope the experienced judge would give the new judge a heads up.)

    12. Lissa Landon*

      I mean, it doesn’t sound like he could ever be a threat to your career in any way, so it would be a kindness to potential clients whose lives could be ruined to tell this guy he is a terrible trial lawyer, and he really should look for a new direction.

    13. Yuck*

      My husband is a defense attorney (also a former prosecutor and is the court appointment wheel; we don’t have public defenders). It’s not your responsibility to stop it or try to help. Let him get a few grievances, and he’ll either do better or do something else. I’m not sure why he doesn’t do something else, but my husband LOVES defense work. He’s had a patent law firm try to get him, but he thinks that kind of law is “not important.” In his mind, nothing is more important than defending people, but he’s good at it, so there is that.

    14. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Another thought: what does your jurisdiction’s code of professional conduct say about your duty to report incompetent representation? ABA Model Rule 8.3(a) states:

      A lawyer who knows that another lawyer has committed a violation of the Rules of Professional Conduct that raises a substantial question as to that lawyer’s honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer in other respects, shall inform the appropriate professional authority.

      Looking at the comments below the rule in my jurisdiction, our guidance appears to be that you need to actually know of the violation, and the possible violation has to be somewhat serious. Your report won’t necessarily trigger a proceeding against the lawyer or even an investigation. But the report would be available if others file a complaint, whether other lawyers or Bill’s clients, and it may inform any proceedings that do end up happening.

    15. goddessoftransitory*

      There’s not thing one you can do, it sounds like. It’s always hard to watch somebody run towards a cliff wearing crepe paper wings, but it’s their life. If I had to guess, Bill is probably heavily in debt from school, and/or is fulfilling a dream, either of his own or his family’s, and thus cannot admit that this was a huge mistake and it’s not going to get better.

      And frankly, once we’re adults and have invested in specialized schooling and interning and who knows what to get going in our lives, it CAN be impossible to go oh, I guess this isn’t for me. It can be simply too hard, or humiliating, or expensive to do something else.

      What’s really worrying is the people who will be trusting Bill with their court cases. Bringing a case to court is traumatic, expensive, and a huge investment in time and mental resources. It doesn’t seem fair that someone might get their chances ruined through no fault of their own. But that’s what Bar complaints are for.

  6. AnonyMouse*

    I work at a toxic work place, and I’m at the end of my rope. I could financially survive a very long job search. I’m just terrified of quitting without something lined up! Does anyone have success stories? Or should I just keep suffering? :(

    1. Bookworm*

      Years ago I quit a very toxic workplace with no notice. I had $400 in the bank. I had a new job in a few days (called some contacts).

    2. Bad Janet*

      Honestly leave! I gave notice at a super toxic job that was making cry on the drive home at least once a week. I had several interviews lined up but no guaranteed job yet and I gave three weeks notice. Before the three weeks were up, I had signed the paperwork for a new job and even managed to arrange that I had a week off between leaving the toxic job and starting the new job. Oh man, did that week off feel good!

      So please, I fully recommend leaving! Staying in a toxic job messes with all aspects of your life, especially job searching. I struggled with searching because I was exhausted and upset when I got home from my toxic job. I honestly think I got a new job so quickly because I felt relaxed after giving notice and knowing I was on my way out; my interviews after felt more solid than any I’d given before.

      1. BellStell*

        Agree! Leave!

        Between now and when Jan started, 4 of the mid senior managers where I work have resigned. Out of 110 staff. All 4 are women. None had another job lined up.

        No HR does not care nor does senior management.

      2. Board Member*

        Although honestly, I wouldn’t recommend anyone quit right now expecting this outcome – I think the economy here in the US is going to be troubled for a while. Leave if you can hang on for six months to a year unpaid, or are willing to take other stopgap work happily if it means getting out. Don’t leave expecting you’ll have a new job in three days.

      3. Laser99*

        Yes, please get out. I have CPTSD partially from workplace bullying aged 19-22. I am now 56. Don’t be me.

    3. AnonymousOctopus*

      I’ve been there with a horrible job that was killing me. I desperately wished I could have quit without something else in the works but I couldn’t risk a gap in health insurance. I eventually found a job and got out but I’m still dealing with burnout from the last place and it’s impacting how I show up at the new place. If you can swing it financially, I say quit.

      One last caveat: with so many federal workers being fired/quitting to look for more stability, some industries are experiencing an influx of qualified candidates that is making everything more competitive. If you aren’t seeing that in your field, then I’d say you’re pretty safe. But if you are, I’d hesitate. I know you said you can float a very long search, but just something to think about.

    4. juliebulie*

      I get the temptation, I really do. But the timing could not be worse. I mean, it’s bad now and going to get worse. Unless you have very special skills that give you a real advantage in this job market, you will probably burn through your savings.

      Instead, invest as much time/mental energy as you can into a job search while you are still employed. Do the minimum you have to to keep your job. (If you’re terminated you’ll probably get unemployment and maybe a little severance, vs. nothing if you quit.)

      Save your savings for your old age, or a serious emergency, or a cruise around the world.

      1. Board Member*

        “Save your savings for your old age, or a serious emergency, or a cruise around the world.” – I think this is an interesting perspective. I don’t think I agree, for me personally, but I know plenty of people do. If OP is as miserable in their toxic job as I have been in past jobs, they are literally killing themselves every day that they stay, so IMO a better retirement is not more important than getting out – and a cruise around the world someday is unlikely to bring them more joy than not having this terrible job anymore. I know a lot of people who are happy to sacrifice now because they want a gold-standard retirement, and I always find it a bit funny … I mean, you’ll likely be sick, and unable to do the things you dream of, even if you are lucky enough to actually get the retirement your planned (rather than getting a Scary Diagnosis in your 60s or God forbid not making it to 60 at all). It’s a balance, I think. Don’t deliberately suffer now for a non-guarenteed payoff later; try to be reasonably happy now and reasonably well prepared for the future. Just my two cents though.

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I have to agree. Obviously a person needs long term planning, and if travel or other specific things are important to them, wanting to plan around them is a good idea.

          But everyone’s heard the grim joke of the guy who slaved all his life, scrimping and saving, and drops dead at his retirement party. And working horrible jobs for decades isn’t going to contribute to health and well being, either mental or physical.

    5. Radioactive Cyborg Llama*

      I would normally say leave but right now I fear our economy is going to get a lot worse. I’d try to stay and look as much as possible. I consider job hunting in this circumstance to be a mental health issue and this sick leave is warranted.

    6. Hlao-roo*

      Is there something a bit more specific that you’re terrified of than just “quitting without something lined up”? If so, come up with a plan to mitigate that particular thing (if possible).

      Some examples of more specific things that could be driving the fear (and example solutions):

      – afraid of not having a routine — get dressed and go for a walk every morning before diving into your job search, sign up for free classes/events at your local library to get yourself out of the house on a regular schedule, etc.

      – afraid of being without health insurance — crunch the numbers on how much COBRA would cost, how much an insurance plan from your marketplace would cost, if you would be eligible for Medicaid or low-income state-level health insurance, etc.

      – afraid of having a gap on your resume — is freelancing a possibility in your field? or is there an organization you can volunteer for that you could put in a “volunteer” section of your resume?

      1. AnonyMouse*

        No, I’m mostly just afraid of not being able to find another job. I’ve intentionally situated myself so I could get by for a very long time, and I’m sure I’d be happier without the drastic toll on my mental health – but the job market is so bad and probably getting worse, what if I’m never able to get another position?

        1. Board Member*

          This is a smart question, and I encourage you to keep thinking about how realistic it is for you to find another job – not just with fear, but with curiosity. How badly are the current issues likely to affect your field and which roles are safest / most transferable to a safer field? How did the field do in the 08 recession and what could be different this time? What’s the longest you’ve ever looked for a job in the past? How could you make your resume look as good as possible if you go? Can you network your way into anything? What would freelancing look like in your field? What’s your emergency plan B and how can you make it as good as possible if the economy is crappy?

        2. Hlao-roo*

          If you haven’t already, you can follow the advice of Green Goose, Board Member, and Jules the 3rd and start job searching now, before you quit. That way you already have a current resume and some submitted job applications when you leave this job. Not as good as having another job lines up, but it gives you a bit of a head-start.

          Good luck with the search!

    7. Lemon*

      You should leave. Toxic workplaces can really screw up your perceptions, as well as damage your physical and mental health. It sounds like you can afford it, so I’d start to make an exit plan.

      While you’re still there, make sure to protect yourself. Stop volunteering, stop making company chaos your problem, stop caring about the success of the business. I’d wager none of those are your responsibility anyway, but toxic workplaces always make you think they are.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        i always tell myself my job isn’t *that bad*, and I’m sure it’s not as bad as horror stories here, but you’re absolutely right – those are all problems! Thank you for saying that, it means a lot.

    8. Green Goose*

      When I was really burnt out at my old job, I was too tired to apply for jobs even though I needed to get out. Would it be possible for you to start taking more PTO/Sick Days and use those days for applying to roles?

      1. Board Member*

        Yes a while ago I took a vacation, went somewhere sunny, sat by the pool, and applied for new jobs all day with a drink in my hand.* Best PTO I’ve ever spent.

        * just one drink though, don’t go nuts

    9. appo*

      Do not leave in this economy without something lined up (assuming you’re American). Hundreds of thousands of incredibly qualified people are unemployed and there’s only more coming

    10. techie*

      This is a really personal decision and it also depends on what your work/field is, what you imagine a “long job search” is, and the details of your finances.

      For me: I have about 5-6 months of savings in my emergency fund, mostly for use if I was out of a job. Even with that, I would not feel comfortable quitting without something lined up in this current market.

      It’s not a good market currently for most fields, and as others have pointed out, it’s probably going to get worse in the coming months. So I would definitely try to get a new job, but I think it is taking many people up to a year to find new gigs, so bear that in mind.

    11. Almost Jobless*

      I can’t be very helpful, but I’m in a similar situation, so maybe we can be a support group for each other. I just posted that I’m in the process of getting fired. My boss is a narcissist (and I believe she’s a bully, but she hides it very well).

      My advice is to get out of there as soon as you can, and if you feel like it’s really bad for your health, maybe it would be okay to quit before you find another job. Are there other things you can do for income so the money lasts longer? I’m thinking about make adorable tiny clothes for Jellycat plushies and selling them on Etsy. :-)

      2. AnonyMouse*

        Solidarity, sorry you’re in a similar situation! It’s absolutely very bad for my health – I’ve really started to fall apart this week.

        I have thought about selling things on Etsy as well, maybe we can setup a joint store, hah! I’m really trying to think outside the box in terms of my next steps.

    12. Ama*

      If you can survive it, leave. BUT if you have not crunched the actual numbers yet sit down and do that. Before I left my nearly-gave-me-a-breakdown job to go freelance in a different industry I set some benchmarks for myself which were:

      – How long I could afford to be in relax and recover mode (as in not trying particularly hard to get a lot of freelance clients — I did take a few but wasn’t pushing myself)

      – When I would really start pushing to ramp up to an equivalent to full time workload as a freelancer and how long I anticipated that to take (I’m still in this phase now)

      -If I found myself struggling to get to full time, how long would I give myself before I started supplementing with either temp work or looking for retail shifts just so I could have some regular income. I’m hopeful it won’t come to that since the ramping up phase is going pretty well (last month, seven months from my quit date, was my highest grossing month thus far), but having a back up plan and knowing when I need to trigger it makes me feel a lot less anxiety.

      I think you could probably adapt this with “looking for a new job” replacing “freelancing.” One thing that happened to me is that I felt so much better not being stressed out about work all the time that I didn’t end up needing as much recovery time as I initially thought.

      1. Board Member*

        Yes! I made a business plan for my life and it was very reassuring (and gave me full confidence when it was time to go back to work because we did not achieve my Q4 goals lol).

      2. nonprofit manager*

        +1 to this! For me, given that I’m financially stable enough to sustain a very long search if necessary, having the numbers and running concrete scenarios (what if it takes me two years to get a job, what if I can’t pick up any freelance work, what if I get sick and have X medical bills, what if inflation skyrockets) gives me some perspective and makes me feel more in control.

        It makes me feel like staying in my job is an active choice that I’m regularly evaluating, rather than something I’m doing out of inertia or helplessness. So when some nonsense goes down at work and the little voice in my head says “do I really NEED to deal with this?” I can answer that voice: no, but I’m choosing to do this because it still has X benefit for me. If that changes, or if my priorities change, I can make a different choice.

        That said, my partner thinks my system of elaborate spreadsheets sounds super stressful and would never work for her, so YMMV. :)

    13. Defying Gravity*

      Are you seeing any clinician (therapist, psych, etc.) who will support an FMLA application for mental health reasons related to the workplace? If so, apply for FMLA. Your health insurance will continue and you’ll have job security, plus you’ll have full time availability for 12 weeks to job hunt a get a taste of the market. If it’s worse than you thought, you can return to toxic job with a leg up on your job search and keep hunting. Good luck.

    14. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      Yes. I did it with a tentative job offer lined up, which then fell apart. I went ahead with leaving, didn’t regret it, found something much better.

      You will not believe how much better you feel.

    15. Jules the 3rd*

      I got laid off last April, 3 months severance, 6mo subsidized COBRA.
      I was *very* picky about jobs, and I got hired at a job I like, in a path I want, in September. I took a 10% pay cut so that I could switch industries. At 50+ years old and my family’s main breadwinner, the whole process was nerve wracking.

      That said, the first four months were extra anxious – 80+ applications, 0 interviews. It got better after that, but I think I only had five interviews through the whole process.

      From what I’m hearing, the job market is very weird right now, and a lot depends on your field. For my hunt, I’ve got an MBA but worked on more technical stuff (computer manufacturing supply chain), and all anyone wanted was banking experience. Computer programmers are struggling, unless they are building AI.

      My recommendation to you is to test the waters before you jump. Spend a weekend putting together a resume, the next weekend search for jobs that interest you and submit a couple of applications. See how many jobs are listed in your field.

      If you do wait to jump, protect yourself by cutting your time and energy at work to the minimum viable product. If they try to call you outside the office, don’t answer; if they yell in the office, say “I am not being paid to be yelled at” or “I’ll come back when you are ready for a professional conversation” and leave. Invest that time in something you really like.

      If you go ahead and jump, make sure you limit how much you spend as much as possible. We did no summer trips, no eating out, deferred all gifts and some routine medical stuff. Six months with no income wiped out our emergency savings, so we’re still on a relatively lean entertainment budget until that gets back up.

    16. SweetCider*

      Leave! You say you can survive a long job search financially. As others have said, it’s not a great time, but your mental health matters a lot.

      One of my bigger career regrets is that I didn’t leave the toxic job the 2nd or 3rd time I considered it. I thought I was protecting my team and couldn’t envision what the next step for me might be career wise.

      And then I got fired. And it took awhile to find the next thing. With a little time and some therapy I’ve realized just how damaging that whole experience was.

    17. Momma Bear*

      I once had a job where the boss was so bad I had both a physician and a therapist tell me to quit for my own health and well-being. I was in a position to absorb the loss of income so I quit and did freelance for several years. If you have options (and that includes healthcare) then I would quit. My only big regret from when I did it was that I didn’t do it sooner. Next time a toxic boss came up I had my resume ready and was out within a few months with a better job. Don’t stay where it’s toxic if you don’t have to.

    18. PokemonGoToThePolls*

      Leave!!
      Having the funds to do so is such a privilege, please take advantage of it. It might give a hint to the workplace, too, that they need to figure themselves out

      1. AnonyMouse*

        I don’t think anything will change this place – turnover is horrendous, and no one is willing to acknowledge it’s because this place is miserable.

    19. Been There, Done That*

      It really depends on which would be worse for you: suffering the mental health effects of a toxic job while job searching, or suffering through the mental health effects of a (potentially long-term) job search while unemployed.

      I have left a couple of jobs without having anything lined up, and doing so allowed me to connect with my network, set up informational interviews, travel for job interviews, etc. much more freely, which was great. I credit a successful career pivot to having a lot of freedom to explore possibilities and leads while job-free. But the last time, a few years ago, took a big toll on me. 17 months of unemployment, traveling far and wide for interviews, feeling overlooked and un-respected by hiring committees, getting further and further away from who I am as a professional, with an important role to play in my field. I have never been so low, even in my most toxic jobs, and I wouldn’t do it again. But I’m also solidly middle-aged and scared of ageism, so that may have something to do with it.

      If you decide to leave, make sure you have a strong professional network willing to help, that you talk to anyone and everyone about what you’re looking for, that you find a group of other job searchers who feel your pain and share funny stories, and that you don’t burn any bridges (many places will want to contact your most recent manager). I wish you the very best!!

    20. Banana Pyjamas*

      Because you say it’s already affecting your health, I think you need to leave in spite of the economy. I left a job in 2016 because the boss was constantly trying to do things that were unethical or even illegal. The job market for my field in Chicago was horrible, and I ended up relocating. I think relocating might need to be on your radar given the current job market. It’s also a good idea to consider a temporary move if it would significantly reduce your living expenses and let you stretch longer.

      After about 2 months I was ready to start looking and took a man unrelated seasonal gig that payed the bills. It’s amazing what you can do when you aren’t constantly stressed.

    21. Roland*

      Have you been looking? How’s that been going? You should at least try for a bit before quitting imo unless it’s very dire, so you have a better understanding of the choice you have to make.

    22. Ally McBeal*

      If you can survive financially, quit and don’t look back. I burned out real bad in 2020 and quit at the end of the year with nothing else lined up. I took 6 months fully off, not job searching or anything, and landed a job 3 months after I started looking again. The job market is tougher now, especially since it looks like we’re heading toward a nasty recession and tons of federal employees are looking for work all at once, so I wouldn’t recommend taking a 6-month hiatus like I did, but life is too short to waste it at a job that kills your soul.

    23. Seal*

      I left a toxic job without anything lined up 25 years ago and it changed my life for the better. The job was one I fell into as an undergraduate that gave me enough financial stability to pursue arts-related activities I was passionate about at the time. While I did my job well it was obviously not my first priority, which most of my coworkers resented. By the time I drifted away from my outside activities and started focusing on my career, the organization itself was a mess due to a bungled reorganization. So I started making plans to leave. As it turned out I stayed on a few months longer than intended because my boss gave me a special project that was supposed to lead to a promotion. The day after the project was completed, my boss left me a voicemail telling me that the promotion was going to someone else; I quit on the spot.

      The thought of quitting without having another job lined up was terrifying, but once I did it the sense of relief was almost overwhelming. I took some time off and started job hunting a few months later, then landed a better job in the same field less than a year later. From there, my career took off. As I moved up the ladder, I ran into former colleagues from my first job at conferences and events. The conversations with those who’d bullied me were always hilariously awkward, but I was pleasantly surprised to learn I had far more people rooting for me from that job than I realized.

      In theory, had I stayed at my first job I could have retired early by now, as many of my peers there did, but I would have been miserable. Too many people stay in toxic work places because they’re afraid the next place will be worse. I decided that wasn’t going to me and it made all the difference.

    24. goddessoftransitory*

      Suffering takes so much out of us, more than we know when we’re in the middle of it. A toxic workplace distorts our thinking, to the point where it seems pointless to try to leave.

      If you can afford it and there’s any chance of getting another job, I would say leave. That’s not advice I give lightly given our country’s current state, but suffering isn’t helping you–it’s trapping you.

      1. allx*

        “Suffering takes so much out of us, more than we know when we’re in the middle of it.”

        This is so true.

    25. Mid*

      I’d look at your industry for sure—if it’s something currently being hard-hit by *waves hand at world ongoings,* I’d probably hold off for a bit, while starting the job hunt immediately. It doesn’t have to be a lot of added work, you could do one small step a day or 20 minutes a day.

      That said, is there a middle ground? Could you switch to something that is always hiring, like retail or fast food, so you aren’t going to zero income, but also aren’t stuck in your toxic job? Could you freelance for a client or two while you recover from the toxic job and start job hunting? Look for jobs outside of your industry that are slightly more economically stable, even if you don’t love the work?

      Could you also reach out to any recruiters you know in your industry? Or temp agencies that work in your field?

    26. Palmer*

      This isn’t a success story as much as a hopefully helpful perspective. I don’t think you should keep suffering this environment.

      By sticking in a toxic environment, you’re letting yourself be harmed further. That can make it harder for you to have a successful transition back into a healthy work environment (example: the various stories of folks flinching prepared to be yelled at at work, or walking on eggshells).

      Rather than thinking: “I’m holding out until I have to make a switch”
      Frame it as: “By staying, I’m making it HARDER to make a switch.”

      You’ll have a VASTLY easier time fully dedicating yourself to job hunting, developing skills for future jobs and decompressing after surviving the poison swamp of your current workplace.
      What if you got a tech test and flub it because you’re overworked and underappreciated. Or if in an interview you’re overly stressed from your current job and you come across as high strung or not your authentic self.

      If you have a lot of runway, figure out your flight plan.

      You also have another option: Completely coast and phone it in. Do the absolute minimum (or less). If your work decides to fire you, you might be able to get unemployment. If they don’t care, great, use this time to get your flight plan going. You could also talk to a labor lawyer about your toxic workplace and if you have anything actionable that might let you either negotiate non contested unemployment to avoid a lawsuit.

      1. AnonyMouse*

        Either way, I think this is the type of thinking I need to use! So helpful, thank you. It’s so hard when it’s between paycheck and no paycheck, when no paycheck has less tangible benefits (… like my happiness).

        And more directly – you’re absolutely correct, I can’t imagine have to do some a difficult technical interview under these circumstances.

        1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

          Hi Anonymouse, it’s great that you have been able to create a safety net for yourself so that you could be out of the workforce for a fair while if necessary. I imagine that took self discipline and planning, and that ‘needless extravagance’ is not your style. It is a good thing to use a safety net to save your life, your health, your future.
          The longer we stay in toxic environments, the more thresholds we cross in terms of becoming more and more affected, and the harder it will be to get back to any kind of normal. Sometimes if we won’t or can’t listen to our brain saying ‘get me out of here’, our body makes us do it by breaking down in some way.
          My suggestion is that you make a plan to have left by a month from now. And as part of that plan, you check out what is available at local community centres, libraries, etc in the way of classes or short courses in anything creative – and book yourself in. Mixing with other adults doing creative things will help restore you. Check if there are any parks or gardens nearby that you could spend time in each day, even if it’s just long enough to eat an apple. If you have public transport handy, are there any museums or art galleries within reach so that you can look at stuff people have created or collected and been curious about.
          Use your safety net. Rest and recover.

          1. AnonyMouse*

            Thank you, this is very kind! I have situated myself very intentionally in this situation, but funny enough am still having trouble “pulling the cord”, despite how much I’ve scrimped to do it… which is funny and not lost on me. I wanted to have the ability to leave this situation, but I’m still not doing it! Hah.

    27. Catherine*

      Are you in the US? I’m not from there but would you be worries about health insurance if you quit? Also, just from the outside, it looks like a rather volatile time for you guys – depending on what field you’re in, do you think the current context will help or hinder a job search?
      (For example, I guess you don’t work in like, public health).

    28. Ten lizards in a raincoat*

      Leave!!!

      Idk about how “successful” I am, but my mind soul and body exhaled a huge sigh of relief when I quit my toxic job. you will feel better than you imagine. and then I needed a lot of time to recover from trauma that was much more than I had allowed myself to fully take in while it was happening. you can give yourself attention and time to care for you. then when you’re ready and able you can actually job search effectively and try to look for a good match for you instead of just grabbing the first opportunity to get out of there. if you have the means, it’s absolutely worth it. :)

    29. Office Gumby*

      Oh my quivery little flower, leave! Please do not let the fear of something unknown prevent you from acting in what you know is your best interests.

      Yes, it can be terrifying to leave a regular paycheque, but your mental health is worth much more than that.

      I needed to leave my last place for the benefit of my mental health. Once that day job was no longer taking over my days, finding a job became my full-time job, and I never felt so free. (I wasn’t unemployed for long as I have some highly-desirable skillz.)

      But I didn’t feel that freedom until after I made the jump. The good thing was, I felt that glorious freedom before I found another job, and it made all the difference in the world.

      For me, it was worth it. If your work place is toxic and you’re financially okay without the salary, make the jump!

  7. Bad Janet*

    Super minor question, just curious. I have a co-worker who is on the same level as me but in a different department and different building. I walked over to her office recently for the first time and saw her set up. She sits in a room with a huge floor-to-ceiling window that gets great sunlight but she is in a cubicle area with two other people. My office has no window to the outside but I have it all to myself with a door I can close. I get so many comments from people who stop in that I’m in a closet with no sunlight but I much prefer it to sharing with other people in cubicles. My coworker, who had an office similar to mine before moving, says how much she loves the window.

    So just a would you rather question: your own private office but no window, or a shared cubicle office with a window?

      2. Charlotte Lucas*

        This. But it is based on my role, which often requires me to have uninterrupted blocks of time.

        When I worked as a trainer, I would prefer the window. People were often in and out based on training needs, and we often saw time when people were in the office as a chance to collaborate or just use each other as a sounding board.

        1. Charlotte Lucas*

          To be honest, though, I am spoiled right now. I am one of the few hybrid workers in my area (most are remote). Until we move to a different building, I have a cube far from most people and a fantastic view from my window.

          I get unreasonably angry when we have in-person days and people start finding me.

        1. Clisby*

          I did a big career change back in the 1980s. I had worked for years at newspapers, then got a degree in computer science (while working nights as a copy editor), and then got a computer programming job. When I realized I, entry level, would have a private office (no window, but a door I could close) I practically kissed the floor. That company had good benefits, but the best one was a private office where I could close the door.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      When my group moved buildings once, I was on a long-term assignment elsewhere, so I didn’t get to pick one of the nicer offices (no cubicles for us at that time) – I got an interior office on an interior hallway. I consoled myself with (a) the climate control was much better, (b) I was closer to the kitchen, (c) there were fewer distractions from passers-by.

      So I’d probably take the private without window again. But look for other factors too if you find yourself gnawing on it.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        I love my window but if I had the choice between an awesome view and perfect climate control, I’d pick climate control.

    4. Rick Tq*

      I had a private office for years and loved it. It allowed me to close the door and really focus when I needed to.

      I had a window into the hallway but no outside windows, which was a good thing IMO. Our suite was on the south side of the building so offices with windows got a LOT of solar heating.

    6. Manders*

      I’d love a private office. I’m currently in a shared office with no window, so I have the worst of both worlds :)

    7. HugeTractsofLand*

      Private office, because I’m the kind of hermit who finds small spaces cozy and not claustrophobic. Warm lighting can work wonders in the absence of windows!

    9. LuckyPurpleSocks*

      Window. At a previous job I had a small private office with no window and it felt claustrophobic and depressing to me. I set up one of my monitors to a live-stream of a beach or public park so I wouldn’t go totally crazy. Mentally I do much better when I have some form of natural light. But that’s just my personal preference; my sister LOVES to work with all of the shades drawn and the lights off because it helps her focus.

    10. Cynthia*

      Ha, I literally switched jobs and moved across the country to get out of a shared cubicle office with a nice view and tons of sunlight. That’s how much I’d rather have a private office with no window.

    11. geek5508*

      Private Office. My desk is in a basement store room, I Maybe see two or three people a day

    13. Rage*

      Private office. I had that setup for my previous role at my employer: no window, but a door, and that helped me focus SO MUCH.

      I’m in a cube now, in an open area, and OMG my executive dysfunction so very, very obvious.

    14. juliebulie*

      Many people hate windows! Sun in their eyes, glare on the screen…

      I liked having a window cube. I don’t mind a lot of sunshine. But people sitting nearby were always asking me to close the blinds (or sometimes, closing them before I arrived) because the sun was in THEIR eyes…

      So if we’re talking a shared window cubicle, what are the odds that my cubemate would want the blinds open as much as I do?

      TBH I’m not claustrophobic at all, and I would love a little closet to myself, as long as I could have a very bright light.

    15. Anon (and on and on)*

      Window 1000x over! I would happily sit in a shared office or row of cubes if I had some sunlight and a view. In fact, a few years back I went from a shared office to a private one, both with windows, and it bummed me out because I went to a much lower floor with a worse view.

    16. OctoChicken*

      I’ve been in both setups and prefer my own office over having a window with cubicles.

    17. Emily Byrd Starr*

      I’d prefer a private office. In the past, I shared a corner office with two other people, and as I have ADHD, I found it very distracting whenever someone came into the office to talk with one or both of them. It was a hindrance to my productivity.

      1. Caller 2*

        Funny, I have ADHD and I think I’m the opposite! I don’t think I’ve ever had a private office in my life, and the one time I was offered a private space to work I turned it down because I didn’t think my ADHD would let me work very well if I didn’t have others working nearby in the same space.

    18. Call Me Wheels*

      I currently sit next to a window in a little office room of 5 people and consider myself the luckiest of our whole department! Our boss shares an office a similar size but with 1 other person and I would hate to be cooped up in there all day. On the other hand, my boss and me both go all over campus a lot of days, so it’s not like either of us would never see sunlight regardless of where we sat.

    19. Dinwar*

      Private office, no windows.

      First, privacy in many roles is very important. No one should be hearing a one-on-one meeting or the like. And I do a lot of confidential work, so having a door is useful.

      Second, I have migraines, so the Sun and I don’t get along terribly well. People routinely comment that where I am is like a cave, and I’ve literally turned closets into offices to take advantage of the reduction in light. If I could go nocturnal I absolutely would!

      It’s one of the things I gave up in my transition. I had an office with a door and very small, easily blocked up windows. Now I’m going Cubicle Land. Not even MY cubicle, it’s shared desk spaces. Irksome, but I actually get to see my kids, which renders that consideration inconsequential.

    20. Daisy*

      I had to choose between staying in a cubicle with a window overlooking a greenspace on campus or moving to a private office with a window into a hallway. It was a tough decision. I ended up choosing the office. The deciding factor for me was that I wanted to be able to see when people approached me and not be surprised by them coming up behind me. The cubicle had a great exterior view but my back was to the entrance of the cubicle so I didn’t realize anyone was there until they started talking to me. The office was set up so that I could see my office door from my desk.

      1. Dinwar*

        Back when we had assigned office spaces I had a convex mirror up in my cubicle to prevent people coming up behind me.

    23. LizW*

      PTB have repeatedly asked if I want my cubby closed off (in the lab with a huge window) or if I want to move to an interior office so I can have a door (no window).
      No to both because I want to keep the window and if they close off my cubby the lab will have no natural light which is not fair to my coworkers.
      So I just borrow a conference room or WFH if need quiet.

    24. bananners*

      I’ve had a variety of offices over the years, some really amazing, some horrible, and I can confidently say I would prefer windows. (By shared cubes you mean there are cube walls between me and the next person, right? Really important distinction).

    25. Admin of Sys*

      Window, assuming the cubical mates don’t have very annoying habits. But I hate rooms without windows, and I don’t need privacy much.

      But fwiw, you can alleviate a lot of the closet feel with a floor or desk lamp that has a grow light bulb in it. It’s /amazing/ what proper sunlight shading does to a room. Throw in a plant or two and it can even be refreshing

    27. Can't Sit Still*

      I’ve had both. Private office wins. I can add sunlight range lighting and hang pretty posters and pictures on the walls to prevent claustrophobia and migraines.

      I have had some stunning views in shared cubes and open offices, but nothing beats a door you can close. I would definitely go into the office more often if I had access to a private office, rather than sitting in our open office setup.

      1. Dinwar*

        For my part, I prefer maps, diagrams, checklists, and the like on the walls than any view I’ve seen in an office building. Nothing–and I mean nothing–in a city can match the view of snow-covered mountaintops poking above the clouds, or seeing ancient stream beds as they moved through time, or springs so crystal-clear that you can see the fish 30 feet down, or some of the other views I’ve had on jobsites. And maps are useful. I can’t count the number of times a discussion got pulled into my office because I had a map that showed the situation in detail. Can’t do that with a park (or worse, parking lot or other buildings).

        1. RLC*

          Have we worked on the same jobsites??? (I’d add centuries-old petroglyphs and pictographs, and watching bald eagles soar, to that list.)
          My office walls were covered with maps, aerial photographs, and historic photographs.

    29. Friday Person*

      Window, easily. This is somewhat influenced by the fact that I can usually WFH when I really need quiet, but I actually like open plan seating for the most part and going without any natural light eight hours a day would immiserate me.

    30. Lady Lessa*

      Window, I turned down an offer to move to the lab office with a smaller window. I share a cubical, whose barriers are low enough that co-workers can come up and talk to me face to face across them. My cubical mate is often traveling.

      Grin, one of my favorite jokes is someone coming into the lab, asking for me, and I respond, “I’m not here”. Even after 5 years, it still produces a grin.

    31. Jules the 3rd*

      Shared with window, as long as sharers are courteous.
      Current set up: 3 people who always use headphones and are only in office together maybe one day / week. HUGE window. LOVE it.

      Last set up? Shared space with wrap around windows, 20 seats, usually 8 – 10 people. All good except for that one person who you can hear from inside the soundproofed conference room, who was on calls 4+ hrs / day. Hated it.

    32. Elizabeth West*

      I’ve only had an office once. It had no window, although there was a glass panel near the door that looked out into the hallway.

      Right now, I have a desk near a giant window (it’s not on the booking system). They were very kind in giving me this desk as an accommodation, and I like looking out the window, but the person who sits behind me is on calls all the time and he doesn’t make much effort to lower his voice. Even the white noise things don’t drown him out — I have to have my noise-canceling headphones on with music playing.

      I would prefer being able to close out everyone if I have to concentrate, but no one at my level would have an office. Fortunately, I can work from home some days.

    33. Box of Kittens*

      Window over all. I’ve worked in completely closed offices and it was horrendous for my mental health. I need the SUN

    34. Artemesia*

      Private office and I would then hang big Hopper prints like ‘room by the sea’ so I had ‘windows’.

    35. Reba*

      I’ve had a few permutations: Open cube No Window, Open cube Window, Closed office window.
      Recently there was a chance I would have to move into Closed Office No Window (“equivalent” because closed office), I went and looked in the space and my heart just sank. Happily I am moving into a different office with a window instead — it’s a window kind of into a courtyard but I’m happy.

    37. Plaidless*

      Private office. I’m basically transparent and prone to migraines. Having to shovel on sunscreen and squint through the glare on my monitor does not appeal.

    38. The Dude Abides*

      I have a window facing east, and I keep the shutters closed. I occasionally have migraines, and don’t like the glare on my monitors.

      I get fresh air/sunlight traveling to/from the gym on my lunch.

    39. allathian*

      Window. I’m in Finland and here it’s illegal to require office workers to work without access to natural light, given that for several months out of the year it’s dark when you go to work and dark when you go home. There are some exceptions, like top security jobs, and office space in warehouses and factories.

    40. HSE Compliance*

      Because of what I do, I’d have to have the private office w/no window.
      However…. I really, really like having windows. So if it was sharing with also someone in HSE that would be on the same type of calls that I would be in, I’d go for the window & shared. It’s just not typical that there’s another me at a site.

    42. GoryDetails*

      Interesting question! I spent my entire career (software engineering) in cube-farms with no windows, and actually liked it; when I was into my tasks I’d be grinding away happily for hours, with no interest in windows, and when I was taking a break I could amble over to the more window-y spaces like the long hallways or the cafeteria. I should note that as we were all working on software we didn’t have a lot of interruptions – no loud phone calls, very few people walking by who didn’t already work here, etc. So I never felt the need for a private office – but if I’d worked in a place with lots of loud conversations in the hallways or the next cube over, I’d have longed for privacy (or at least for noise-cancelling headphones).

    43. goddessoftransitory*

      As somebody sitting in a noisy room with very big windows–I’m torn. I really enjoy watching the gulls and crows, and the pigeons when they lay flat and look like little Dutch baby pancakes made of feathers. But on the other hand, never having to listen to a certain colleague rant on about his plans for Comic-Con to a bewildered stranger on the phone who was just trying to place their dinner order? Ahhh, heaven…

    44. fhqwhgads*

      Private, no window. I actually had such a thing for 5 years back in the day, the last time I worked in an office. It was a literal closet. Probably 6ftx6ft. No windows to the outside or in the door. I got so much more done when I got to go in there vs being in the cubicle floor.

    45. STEM Admin*

      I’ve had a private office since the early 2000s, but I (happily) gave up an office with a great view for an interior office with no windows that’s in a MUCH BETTER location. No regrets.

    46. ElastiGirl*

      Window window window window!

      I’m in a private office right now, and I rarely use it because it’s so claustrophobic and depressing. Even when I’m meeting with students, I’ll suggest we go get coffee just to get away from it.

      Oh what I’d give for a window! But I’m at the bottom of the hierarchy, so that isn’t happening any time soon.

  8. so over it*

    When giving notice, is it ever appropriate to tell the real reason you are leaving? I do not want to burn bridges with some of the upper management team who will one day see the light and move on, and I would want to work with them again. If so, any advice on how to structure the comments constructively? Or do I accept things are never going to change, which is exactly why I’m leaving, and say its just time to move on?

    I knew I would not be a lifer at my company when management did nothing about the low performer on my team. My team is not the only one with a low performer, so it seems like its just how they roll here. As long as you show up, at least for some of the day, you can be employed. As a high performer, I don’t expect most coworkers to work at my level or pace, but shouldn’t there be a standard? Its very demotivating to work hard and watch coworkers showing up to meetings late if at all, using all the supplies and not ordering more (*this is a paradox, since they don’t get a lot done, but they use up all the supplies- how?), and most importantly they continuously have a really light workload and need lots of help from the manager and anyone foolish enough to help (there is no accomodation situation going on that would explain this). There is other dysfunction at my company and better reasons to leave that have popped up since last year, but this is the straw that broke me after 5 years(!) of telling my managers every time this coworker affected my work.

    PSA: people managers out there, keeping poor performers on your team will do you no favors in the long run and you risk losing your high performers if you don’t address the issue.

    1. Antilles*

      Not in your case.
      This is happening on a bunch of teams and you’ve mentioned this to various people for five years and nobody has cared? Yeah, no, they aren’t going to suddenly give a crap now that you’re leaving.
      The best case scenario is that they nod politely, thank you for your input, don’t punish you for it, and promptly forget about it. Zero upside to anybody here. But there are plenty of scenarios where they blame the messenger or argue with you or come away angry at you or etc.
      Just be pleasant, tell them you’ve got an amazing opportunity, vague platitudes about how much you enjoyed working on X and learning Y, and maybe we’ll work together again in the future.

      1. Hyaline*

        Yeah, it’s less of a “is this the appropriate context” and more of a “is there any point” in this circumstance. I’d say that hypothetically, yes, saying that one of your reasons for leaving is difficulty with low-performing colleagues can be fair…but here they’ve been made aware of the problem multiple times and have shown no interest. Just leave and move on, their inability to manage their employees is no longer your problem!

        1. goddessoftransitory*

          I agree. At this point, telling them in your exit interview “working with Fergus is no longer tenable in any way, shape or form” is simply giving them ammunition to use against you–“not a team player” or whatever they tell themselves. It seems ridiculous but hey, they can stay at the circus and toss peanuts to the monkeys all they want.

          I would watch out about working with these people in future positions, though; they’ve shown that getting rid of low performers isn’t a priority here, and that attitude might carry over. It could be they’re great and hamstrung by this particular company…or it might not.

    2. Rage*

      Question: if there are upper management you may want to work for in the future, should they “see the light” – how will informing them harm you? If they are reasonable, effective managers, then being informed of a problem shouldn’t cause issue for you (assuming you do it diplomatically). However, if they would hold that truth against you, are you sure they are the type of person you would want to work for again?

    3. No bad people at work!*

      It depends! If you have a great relationship with your managers, I’d say go ahead and be frank about the real reason. If you don’t, just give a generic reason such as “I found a place to develop my career further.”

      I once left a job because I was 100% opposed to a hiring and was in the dark. I told my manager, who I worked for several years, about my rationale. Then I found a new job. He kind of knew the reason by then.

    4. juliebulie*

      Agree with Antilles. It’s one thing to speak up if you think it will matter. When you have ample evidence that it won’t, there’s no benefit to anyone.

      I did speak up once in an exit interview, and my boss was double-demoted as a result (reporting to someone who used to report to him), because I was the third person to say that he shouldn’t be in a position of authority unless he does something about his “rage issues.”

      At another job, I really wanted to tell my bosses all my grievances, but that would have taken hours when I just wanted to go home. And the truth was, they already knew how effed up their organization was. The problems went way beyond just them. So there would have been no point.

      1. Former academic*

        When I left my university, I had an exit interview with a Dean (my grandboss), in which I specifically called out the department members whose toxic bullying had prompted me to leave, in hopes that over time, having explicit evidence that N faculty members had left because of them might eventually lead to something being done. But there were no real professional ramifications for me (because of the way academic leadership works, it’s as if I was an accountant but my grandboss was the chief mechanic– unless I wanted to go back to my former university, our professional paths would never cross again.)

        I think saying something like “I think you’re aware of my concerns about the dynamic with Xavier, and to be totally frank, that did play a role in my decision to take on a new opportunity” is probably sufficient, and is not super bridge-burning if they are reasonable people.

    5. officinalis*

      If you’ve been bringing the issues up for 5 years, then there really is no need provide feedback. your managers know why you are leaving and have chosen to not address the issues. Providing the feedback one more time on your way out will not make a difference.

      If you think it will matter in some way, then you could leave constructive feedback about your experience and how it informed your decision to leave. I would just have low expectations about that, personally.

    6. Quinalla*

      I think it is always appropriate. The real questions are (1) will it hurt you in any way if you talk about and (2) will it make any difference? You can’t always know (2) – or even (1) – but if there seems no worries of (1) and you are willing, go ahead and tell them that like you’ve said in the past, low performers…

      I told at least part of the reasons why I left my first job, I didn’t go into all the details and there was some stuff I didn’t talk about because I thought it could damage me if my boss was asked for a reference in a future job hunt, but I did talk about an employee who had a pattern of unprofessional behavior when he didn’t get his way and he final did it one too many times and that was a big reason I started looking for a new job. There were other things I did and didn’t talk about, but it was a final straw moment for me and it wasn’t the one thing it was the accumulation over years that I finally was DONE. There were things about my boss that I didn’t say because I knew he wasn’t going to change and it could sour him on me for future references.

      Anyway, you have zero obligation to say the real reason if you don’t want to, but if no harm will come to you, it’s fine to say as it might matter. Folks often take exit interview feedback in a different light because folks generally have little to lose and are often very candid. They also sometimes can get a little overzealous when they have little to lose too.

    7. goddessoftransitory*

      About the supplies: I doubt they’re using them up so much as simply “liberating” them.

      1. The Coolest Clown Around*

        Others have discussed the pros and cons of saying anything, but I’ll add that if you DO decide to say anything, it will be received better the more reasonable and professional you sound. A long rant about your coworkers many flaws, or any kind of detailed breakdown of recent grievances is likely to come off petty or bitter. I’d advise aiming for something like “It was really frustrating that [work impact x], and also demoralizing to see that my effort/investment wasn’t rewarded despite you being happy with my work, while [name specific recurring issue] was allowed to continue. It’s hard to stay invested in that kind of environment.”

  9. Lady Elaine*

    In the mid-aughts – so about 20 years ago now – I taught English in Japan on the JET Program for a few days. I’ve had an eclectic “career” since then. Last fall I went back to school to study IT and plan to have an AAS degree by December. (I already have a Bachelor’s in an unrelated field.) I know Alison’s advice is to drop anything from your resume that’s over 10 years old, but I’ve found that some hiring managers are a little more impressed with my Japan job than I think they ought to be.

    I kept it on my resume for my most recent job in a help desk role – my first IT-related job – because it spoke to a pattern of teaching/training that was relevant to that role. It probably won’t be relevant to any IT jobs I apply to in the near future. Should I keep it on under “Other Experience,” or drop it entirely?

    2. WheresMyPen*

      Did you mean to write ‘for a few days’? That doesn’t seem long enough to really hold much weight on a job application

      1. Lady Elaine*

        Ah you’re right, I added a last-minute edit and didn’t proof it. I was in Japan for three years.

    3. Hlao-roo*

      I taught English in Japan on the JET Program for a few days.

      Where you only teaching for a few days, or did you mis-type something there? If it was only a few days of teaching experience 20 years ago, I don’t think that belongs on a resume.

      More generally (and this applies if you taught for more than just a few days), I’m a big fan of having a “master resume” document that has all of your work experience on it, and then whittling the “master resume” down in different ways to individualize the resume you send into each job application. If your JET teaching experience isn’t relevant for the roles you’re applying to, probably best to drop it off of the resumes you send out. If there is an occasional job you apply to where it might be relevant (perhaps a Japanese parent company?), you can leave it on.

      1. Lady Elaine*

        Yes, a few years, sorry for the confusing typo. Good point about keeping it handy if I apply to a Japan-affiliated company. I don’t have a master resume, but I keep all my old resume copies in case I need to pull something from them.

    4. CherryBlossom*

      I say keep it on under “other experience” if it’s garnering attention for you, even if you don’t think it’s particularly relevant.

      I worked at a very well-known and beloved company over a decade ago, and my job applications tend to get more responses when I keep it on my resume, even if it’s no longer as relevant to my job search. People like things that are familiar, and in this job market, any point in your favor is worth it.

    5. Elitist Semicolon*

      Keep it on, because cultural competence is an asset in the job market. Teaching abroad demonstrates that because it shows that you can confidently navigate international/unfamiliar professional cultures and effectively interact with and teach people whose first language is not English. These traits are hard to demonstrate through most jobs, whereas they’re inherent in teaching in the JET program, and besides, it’s still relatively uncommon for folks from countries where English is the dominant language to have spent considerable time in Japan. (In the U.S., at least, it’s more common for people to have spent time in other English-speaking countries, or at least in those with Roman-based alphabets.)

      1. Lady Elaine*

        Good points – thank you for pointing out the continued relevance of that experience.

      2. cncx*

        I agree with this, I work on a multilingual help desk where we are expected to cover four languages. I keep anything that speaks to my ability to do stuff in multiple languages on my cv.

    6. nnn*

      I don’t think her advice is to drop anything older than 10 years. The first column I found said “only needs to go back about 10-15 years” so I don’t think it’s a hard cut off or anything.

        1. Roland*

          Agreed. It’s “only include things that strengthen your resume”, and most most things don’t do that after 15 years, but no reason a specific one can’t strengthen your resume.

      2. Ally McBeal*

        Agree – “your resume is a marketing document” outweighs (IMO) the general guidance about 10-15 years being a good cut-off for including jobs.

    7. FashionablyEvil*

      Honestly, I’d keep it. It stands out and it demonstrates that you can be comfortable and thrive in very different environment. Those are good skills regardless of the job.

      1. Lady Elaine*

        Thanks! Honestly I expected more “drop it” suggestions, but I’m glad to keep it.

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      Keep it on, because it speaks to willingness to experiment / explore, and because it may speak to experience in translating things for people. SO many IT people can only speak their jargon and can not switch to plain English for laypeople.

    9. Rekha3.14*

      Fellow JET alum from about the same time period! 2003-2006; I was up in Aomori.

      I have enough very field specific experience now, but JET was actually really great (if you had the right kind of placement) for transferrable skills. If I were changing fields, I’d put it back on my resume.

      My company actually expanded to Japan about 5 years ago now and I got to be part of the project (small part, but still part, for our department) because my employers/managers knew about it as it was on my resume for this job. I’m still our department’s primary contact. And I don’t need Japanese, the team there is thankfully all bilingual, but having the cultural experience and understanding has been helpful.

      So, I’m team Keep It On. :) Good luck with the job search and applications.

    10. Artemesia*

      It is something that differentiates you and makes you interesting — I’d keep it on for that reason.

  10. Career changer*

    Hi all — would love some advice on this stage of my career (which has been a mess so far).

    A few months after graduating in 2023, I got a job that I left after six months because I thought I had found my dream job. I just got laid off from that after ten months.

    The (good?) problem is that I’ve finally realized what I actually want to do (accounting), so I’ll be starting community college classes soon to finish pre-requisites before applying to grad school… but I don’t know what to do along with taking classes. Technically I can afford to not work and wouldn’t mind some “time off” before I work for 40+ years.

    At the same time, I don’t love the idea of having a 2 year resume gap (but is it really a gap if I’m taking classes and then grad school?). But grad school (Jun. 2026 – May 2027) will be too intense to even work part-time, so if I got a job now I’d just have to quit in a year anyway, which can’t be great for my resume either.

    Maybe I’ll try to get some temp work. Does anyone have any thoughts?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      From my experience, grad school is actually much more powerful when you are also working. It give you real life current examples to pull from and apply your learnings. Additionally, it looks good to employers to see that you were able to balance both working (even if just temp part time jobs) plus school.

      1. OrdinaryJoe*

        Yes, I’d second this. I’d say the majority of people balance grad school and working at least part time. I went to school full time and worked full time. I had no life but … LOL Unless your program requires hands on internships or something that literally prevents you from working, I’d strongly encourage you to start to work now and keep that job while in school.

      2. Random Reader*

        Some grad programs are pretty intensive to allow students to graduate in a year. I’ve seen some programs that are equivalent to 40 hours week of classes, not counting homework or projects and don’t accept students who plan to work while enrolled

    2. CherryBlossom*

      Going back to school, especially when it’s specifically for career-reasons, is one of the more universally accepted reasons for having a multi-year gap on your resume. If you don’t need to work, don’t stress about it and focus on your studies. Good luck!

      1. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

        Seconding this. It’s a very different scenario when it’s clear that you’re gaining workplace-relevant skills.

      2. HonorBox*

        Yep. Focus on your studies and remove the stress of juggling work and school work. The gap in work isn’t really a gap either. While you’re not working at a job, you’re working at getting your degree. Especially because you’ll be applying for accounting jobs, your degree will carry more weight than having some temp work during that time.

      3. Jules the 3rd*

        THIS. I did an MBA full-time, no one blinked at the resume gap.

        I would look for something part-time for the next year, though. There’s great things that are accounting related, like a short term job with one of the tax prep people, or be a treasurer for a non-profit / political group (usually volunteer, 5hrs/week). From my experience, you could keep doing a treasurer role during grad school.

        Unlike HR Exec, I did not see significant advantage to working during grad school *if you’re changing careers*. For the people trying to move up in their current careers, yeah, but the rest of us, not so much. All the hiring people looked at for me was my GPA.

        1. Rage*

          I’m changing careers, and I have been doing Masters part-time and continuing to work full-time. I couldn’t afford to NOT work.

          In any case, my new degree will lead to a state license, which is a requirement, so I doubt my GPA will matter as much as that. (It’s a 4.0 anyway so either way I’m not concerned).

    3. Beth**

      As a hiring manager, I would not consider a period of study a “gap”. I guess it depends on whether you can make the first year look “full-time”. That said, the usual rules against a series of short contracts are more malleable for students. People recognise that there may be reasons why students don’t stay in a role long-term that are not about their reliability.
      So I would say go for a job even if you know it’s going to be short term if you like it and it won’t interfere with your studies. But don’t worry overly about resume gaps if you have something else going on (and education to train in a new field is one of the best things you can have).

    4. LuckyPurpleSocks*

      Look for student jobs at your community college and also at your grad school, something related to your program/degree if possible. You might be able to get a tuition waiver or discount, and it will give you some of the “previous experience” a lot of businesses request on job postings.

    5. UncleFrank*

      First, if you’re in school, it’s not a gap, so I certainly wouldn’t worry about that. But also, if you found a job you liked and quit after a year to go to school, I don’t think that would hurt your resume either!

      My personal opinion is that unless a really interesting opportunity comes along, just focus on your coursework. Or maybe add in some volunteer work if you’re bored?

    6. Jeneral*

      I would get a job, maybe a part time job. Personally I would hate to spend down my savings for a year, even if I could afford it, particularly given the current climate. And what if something happens to delay grad school? Some people have had graduate school admissions rescinded. Plus you might find a job doing taxes part time, or something else relevant to accounting.

      1. Juanita*

        I agree with this. I did this early on in my career and now, 15 years later, I really, really wish I had those funds to, you know, afford a house with a spare bedroom, or even just take a vacation or fix my car without worrying about eating up emergency savings. (I get paid fairly well for my industry, but expenses are high in my big city and getting higher.) Not to mention the money would be worth a LOT more now, 15 years later, if it had been invested in mutual funds.

        So while you can technically afford it, don’t do it if it means burning through all your savings. You don’t have to work a full-time office job while taking classes, but temping could be a good option as you suggested, especially since it could give you exposure to different types of industries and help you figure out where you want to land once you graduate.

    7. Wednesday Wishing*

      Try a part time / temp job in an accounting firm, scanning documents or whatever help they need. And you can probably get a job like this just for tax season, which would be from about February through April. Its possible they could keep you on one day a week after tax season while in school- but the real benefit is the experience in the field you want to work in.

      1. Wednesday Wishing*

        and the advantages to this are you also make connections into the accounting world when you’re ready for full time career.

    8. Lady Elaine*

      In the next 40+ years you probably won’t think, “I’m sure glad I took some time off before working for another 40+ years.” But if you know that you will struggle to balance school and work, then that’s reason enough to push pause on working. I’m in community college now, in my mid-40s, for a career change. When I gave my notice at work, my boss offered to reduce my hours. But I know myself – I know I need all the time I can get to focus on schoolwork and not feel frazzled, because my stress response is to avoid the thing that’s stressing me out.

    9. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      Put it this way: the formal term for people who are excluded from the workforce is NEET, or Not in Education, Employment or Training. If you aren’t in this category, it’s not really a career gap at all.

    10. Former Non Traditional Accounting Student*

      I’ve been where you are, although I was in my first career for several years before I went back to school. If you have a specific school you would like to attend, reach out now to verify that they will accept the pre-req classes from your community college. The university I attended would not accept pre-reqs from the community college where I was taking refresher accounting classes. I ended up pushing to get into the summer courses at that university and took Intermediate Accounting 1 and 2 over the 5 week summer terms in order to make it into the Grad program in time for Fall (this also meant cramming in the GMAT exam for my year). Are you planning to pursue a CPA license? If so, your schedule may not be so empty. The best time to take the exam sections is while you are still in school, and studying for that is a full time job (seriously, treat it like one). Those who had even 1 section passed during fall recruiting season had a leg up against those who had none, particularly with the larger accounting firms if you were considering going the route. I actually extended my program so I could take my final elective in the subsequent Fall and I could go through recruiting season again (no classes completed yet the first time I went through it; 4.0GPA, 2 exam sections passed, and 1 pending test results when I went through again). The US was still recovering from the effects of the Great Recession when I went back to school, and my area of the country was still a bit competitive as far as open roles at the time. I was the only one from my university to get an offer from the public accounting firm I signed on with, and I know having those exams passed played a big role. I also know you really don’t want to try and study for FAR through your first audit busy season (guess how I know). Best of luck with your goals. 12yrs later I have no regrets about going into the accounting field.

      1. Career changer*

        This is so helpful, thank you so much!
        (1) Thankfully all the programs I’m looking at just require pre-requisites to be taken at a degree-granting, accredited institution (but I might reach out anyway to double-check)
        (2) yes, I’d like to pursue a CPA license! I actually imagined myself studying for the exams the summer after graduation (before starting in public, if I’m lucky enough to have a job lined up) – but I’m going to look into the possibility of completing them alongside school.
        (3) Would you recommend taking the GMAT? All the programs say it’s optional, but maybe it would be worth it to show that I’m capable of grad school coursework (I did complete undergrad with a 3.9, but it was a social sciences major and the most quantitative thing I did was an A- in statistics)

        1. Former Non Traditional Accounting Student*

          (2) Some states have rules on how frequently you can take sections on the test, and it is quite common not to pass all the sections the first time. For example, in my state the pass rate for Audit last quarter was 48%, Reg was 60%, and Far was $34% (CPAs get a monthly newsletter here) . Your chances of passing them at a higher rate are definitely greater while you are in school taking the classes and using the study materials. You should be able to find out more about your state’s rules by googling your state name and something like “CPA Board of Examiners” to find the site for your state board. I remember having to file for permission with the state board to sit for the exams before I could start scheduling them.
          (3) If they are truly giving you the option of skipping the GMAT I would skip it without a second thought. Of all the standardized tests I’ve taken in my life that one had to be the most useless and irrelevant. That being said, it is worth asking the admissions advisor of the school what the stats are on the current groups of students being accepted. My university had their pick of people trying to get in the year I went back as demand for the program was high, so the admissions advisor said that even though the standard minimum was xx, they were really looking at xx+100pts at the time. Therefore, the school may say that the test is optional, but if they have too many applicants they may start weighting for those who have taken it.

    11. Bitte Meddler*

      I went back to school in my late 40’s to get a degree in Accounting (and then a Master’s). I got an internship for the summer before my final year, then a part-time internship for my final semester. I got a job offer from the company I was part-time at. (They ended up being awful but it was a good stepping stone).

      I decided to become an internal auditor partway through my Bachelor’s and, luckily, my school is an IIA Internal Audit Center of Excellence, so I got “minor” in Internal Audit. The internships were invaluable to me for fully understanding the nuances of internal auditing.

      I also want to make a plug for a career in internal audit. Unlike corporate accounting, we don’t have crunch times every month, quarter, and year; and unlike tax accounting, we don’t have a months-long busy season. It’s a steady pace all year long. And, so far, my pay is higher and my promotion track faster than my friends who became accountants.

      1. Career changer*

        So I actually ended up doing a lot of internal audit-related work at my old job… and I liked it so much better than my actual job, which is why I’ve decided to change careers :) I’m so glad you’ve enjoyed working in that sub-field! My top choice for grad school is also recognized by the IIA.

        1. Bitte Meddler*

          Yay!! I [bleeping] love internal audit! If you’re the kind of person who gets bored once they’ve mastered a thing, then IA is the way to go. One month you’re learning everything about inventory, then the next month you’re deep in the weeds of payroll, followed by a fast jaunt through treasury, then you’re off to operations.

          Stay with one company long enough (in industry, not public accounting / consulting) and you’ll eventually become a valued hub of information. If the Controller in a factory several states away has an obscure question, they’ll message you because, while you might not immediately have the answer, you’ll know where to go to get it.

    12. Response Junkie*

      I don’t think it’s a gap at all, so I wouldn’t be worried about that at all. If you think school is going to be that intense and you can afford it, just focus on school. If you don’t like the idea of not earning something or “keeping in touch” with the professional world I’ve heard that bookkeeping can be an easy side gig and since you’d be working for yourself you could just do a few hours a week if you wanted?

      Full disclosure I’ve never tried it, but I’ve been in life circumstances that had me looking hard at side gigs and other jobs.

    13. RM*

      I think intro accounting classes + part time entry level job in an accounting department splits the difference in a way that’s helpful to your career and learning. Working an entry level AP, billing, or B2B collections for a year+ before quitting for grad school will look very normal on your resume. I can’t overstate how much even basic real world experience (medium sized business AP) helped my understanding in my more advanced classes such as audit. If your interested in doing tax, find the VITA tax centers in your area and sign up to volunteer in the fall. They will train you! And it’s a resume item that’s relatively low time commitment. You could do a ton of hours Jan-April 2026 and the minimum # of hours during grad school.

    14. Pickles*

      Do something totally amazing. Travel on the cheap. Or throw yourself into a hobby. Volunteer. No one will care what you do with this 6 months. But once you are done with your degree you will have to work for the next 40 years or so. Have some fun.

  11. Board Member*

    I’m struggling a new WFH job that is more boring than I expected and I need ideas for making my days blur together less. Some of my ideas are like, give yourself a casual Friday or take a specific walk on Thursdays. Go out for lunch on Tuesdays. Any suggestions? Even my weekends are sort of blurring together at this point but maybe I’ll ask about that in the weekend thread

    1. HugeTractsofLand*

      During the pandemic I would change locations in my house at the “end” of the work day, and/or do something different like working out or taking a walk to change my mindset. I’m guessing that you’ve been doing personal tasks/browsing sites for fun since the job is boring, so I’m sure that’s contributing to the blurred boundaries. Your ideas sound good, and I have some friends who swear by a Mr. Rogers routine of dressing up for work and dressing down again afterwards. Good luck!

      1. North Wind*

        More daily routines than different things to do on different days, but…

        I’ve been out of the office for about 10 years now and have done different things at different times. For awhile I drove to a park every morning with my coffee for a walk (while listening to favorite podcasts). Getting out of the house and coming back just helped set my mood to work-mode.

        Or if not leaving the house in the morning, I’ll put on a podcast and walk (yes, small laps inside my home) for 20 minutes or so.

        And for awhile I had a habit at the end of the workday of changing into sweats/shorts and getting on an elliptical (that I have at home). It just changes the tone of the day.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Can you book regular time slots on different days for you to do overhead-ish kinds of things, instead of scattering those through the week.

      Monday 10:00-10:30 read the trade press
      Wednesday 3:00-3:30 review customer feedback and take notes
      etc

      Bonus – this also helps with improving your attention span and focus.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Those are good suggestions. I also have a laundry routine– every Thursday I wash the towels. It’s pretty mundane but it’s always a nice reminder that the week is almost over. If there’s a show you like that releases one episode every week, pick a day to watch during lunch.

    5. Emily Byrd Starr*

      I’ll share an idea that I read about during the pandemic. After you’re showered and dressed, go to your local Dunkin’s or Starbucks or Tim Horton’s or similar place and get a cup of coffee. Then go home and start work. This takes the place of the “commute time” separating home life from work life. Or, if possible, take your laptop to the library or aforementioned coffee shop and work there. Just be mindful of other people there.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Similarly, when I was working from home during the pandemic I used the advice of “walk around the block clockwise before starting work and counter-clockwise after finishing work for the day.” Throwing this variation out there for any non-coffee drinkers.

    6. Dinwar*

      When I work from home I have a personal laptop set up that I play podcasts and the like on. Nothing NSFW–things like crochet videos, or podcasts dealing with my religion, audiobooks (Librivox.org is a fantastic site!), or other areas of interest. I do a lot of data manipulation, which requires a style of attention that I’ve found is improved with some background noise.

      I also have certain tasks I do on certain days. Schedule stuff is on Mondays, financial stuff is on Fridays, that sort of thing. This not only lets me separate my days, but also builds expectations on the part of others–they’re not going to harass me on a Tuesday about an invoice, that’s a Friday thing.

      1. Charlotte Lucas*

        Seconding podcasts. Also, I take short breaks for quick chores. And sometimes meal prep for dinner, which can be broken down throughout the day.

        My job isn’t boring, but there’s a danger of getting chained to my laptop without getting away from it.

      2. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

        I did this as well with writing (my job at the time was somehow both a dead end and at the cutting edge in our field at once, and I had a lot of time). Finished an entire terrible fan fiction novel.

    7. Geek5508*

      Set goals – “ if I finish this TPS report, I can take a 15 minute walk”, plan a midday meal that takes a small amount of prep time, erc

    8. Distractinator*

      When my mom retired, she set a breakfast menu that lined up with days of the week. Cereal Monday, cheese toast Tuesday, fruit yogurt Wednesday, eggy muffin Thursday, different cereal Friday, then cooking omelette and pancakes on the weekend. Visiting her is a riot, especially when she changes the menu because she has company and then forgets what day it is. My point being to establish a routine (any routine!) that makes the days specific.

    9. Cheap ass rolling with it*

      I like making bread. I put together the ingredients in the morning, and then have to check in every couple of hours to see if the dough is raised, punch it down, let it rise again.

      It gives a few 15 minute breaks and the bread is forgiving on timing.

      And of course, dinner is freshly baked bread.

  12. HugeTractsofLand*

    I need help handling a resignation meeting! I have a temperamental boss who will make a great reference, but is likely to take my resignation personally. How do I handle myself in the meeting so that I don’t overextend emotional support and/or offers to help out but also preserve the relationship? I want to be emotionally detached without coming off as cold. Are there any lines or approaches that have helped you?

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      I would encourage you to quickly shift the convo from your resignation to thanking the manager for everything you have learned from them (or something along those lines). Basically, you are shifting attention from you and why you are leaving to how great they are and how they prepared you for new great opportunities.

      1. HonorBox*

        And while this is good, don’t spend too much time with the thanks, either. Get into your transition planning too. You’re showing appreciation and you’re showing that you’re intent on leaving on good terms.

        1. HugeTractsofLand*

          I like this, it’s basically a skinny emotion sandwich: resignation- THANK YOU YOU’VE BEEN GREAT- transition plans

      2. Lemon*

        Also, shift the convo into handoff planning, bring materials with you to assist in this, like a project list, documentation etc. Having all that stuff immediately ready also helps convey you are serious and they shouldn’t bother putting a counter offer together.

        1. HugeTractsofLand*

          Good point, I’ve had past bosses try and “work things out” mid-meeting. I think the tough part about resigning is that the other person always has to process on the fly whereas I’ve had loads of time to mentally prepare, which is why I worry about coming off cold.

    2. Hyaline*

      Are you leaving for another opportunity? That might make things easier, if you can emphasize why you’re making the move to detract from any “why are you leaving” questions–you are going TOWARD something, not AWAY from your current org. Like if you can point to “You know how I’ve always wanted to work in hamster habitrail restoration, and that isn’t something I could pursue here at AlpacasRUs.” And if you can focus on the positives of your experience with the organization and/or your boss, and then dig into transition plans, that could help as it’s giving you something focused to work on together. I actually think super-detached may not be your best bet, unless we’re thinking about that word differently–I would show continued investment in the organization by engaging fully on planning for transition.

      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        In my case it’s an internal transfer, which is why I want to be extra careful to preserve the relationship and set boundaries on what I offer to do to support their team. But yeah, I’ve been planning to use positive framing around the move (even though I’m really switching due to the negatives), so your advice resonates! When I said “detached,” I meant that there’s a fair chance my boss will cry or spiral into how hard this will be on her, so I don’t want to get sucked into that emotional mess (overly comforting her, overly matching her energy) unless I have to.

        1. State Gov Folk, Let's Talk About Words*

          If it’s actual crying that almost feels like a moment to say, “I know I’ve had time to prepare for this and you haven’t, and we need to talk about the transition so everything goes smoothly for you and the team. I’ll schedule a time to follow up with you on that and give you your space right now.” or something along those lines and seriously just scoot for the door.

          1. State Gov Folk, Let's Talk About Words*

            Don’t you hate it when you changed your screen name for one post and forget to change it back? Oh well, I yam who I yam.

          2. goddessoftransitory*

            I think this is a very good script! As Allison so often recommends, frame it as a “this is a temporary glitch that both of us want to handle totally professionally! I’ll book a meeting about transitioning my duties for Friday, unless you’d like it on another date” or whatever swings the focus to the future.

  13. Emily Byrd Starr*

    I know this question has been asked before, but when is it appropriate to put hobbies on your resume? I know some people like to be safe and say, “never,” but are there situations where it could possibly be an asset? For instance, if I’m applying to be an historic tour guide, it makes sense to say that I perform in community theater, right? It’s appropriate, I think, because it shows that I have experience and skills relevant to the position. However, I would leave community theater off my resume if I’m applying for an administrative office job that has no connection to theater or performing. And there are obviously hobbies that are never appropriate to put on your resume, such as sex parties.

    1. HR Exec Popping In*

      I agree with your logic. I have seen hobbies actually be a plus on a resume when they also tie to an organization’s purpose. For example: hiking when applying to an organization that sell outdoors equipment.

    2. MsM*

      Yeah, you got it. Although you could also just mention community theatre in your cover letter in that particular case.

    3. Cynthia*

      I think putting relevant hobbies on the resume is fine, though personally I prefer to talk about them in the cover letter instead. That way I’m not just repeating the contents of my resume and noodling on about how their mission really resonates with my values or whatever.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Actually relevant stuff belongs on a resume, the problem is when people are reeeeeeeallly stretching the definition of relevant. Being a historic tour guide is public speaking, and community theater is very relevant. Though as other point out, the cover letter is always a good opportunity, too.

      Also, IME there is a huge overlap between the group of folks in a community who do theater, and the folks who work in museums and historic associations anyway – so it may also be a point of networking / connection with the hiring panel. Even for an admin job at an arts / culture organization, I’d leave community theater on for that reason.

    5. HonorBox*

      I think the tour guide and community theater connection makes sense. While you might list that on a resume, I wouldn’t call it a hobby. I would list it under “other involvement” or “volunteer activities” or something like that. And I’d suggest highlighting it in a cover letter because you’ll be able to connect the dots rather than hope someone looks at all the items on your resume.

      1. Distractinator*

        Agreed! You’d list your other interests not because you’re hoping the interviewer would think it’s cool that you do thing X, but because it’s helping you bring relevant skills. “hobbies” = hiking, knitting, folk dancing, cosplay, volunteer in a soup kitchen. (things you wouldn’t list because it’s just small talk) “relevant activities outside of work” = managing the folk dance club accounts, roles in community theater, etc – but only if they’re actually relevant. I don’t interact with budgets professionally, so nobody cares if I’m club treasurer (unless I was fresh out of school and the point was that I was organized enough to keep the 501c(3) paperwork up to date) And I don’t do public speaking, so it would be hard to sell community theater roles as relevant. But involvement as a high school robotics team mentor is tech-adjacent enough, and about teamwork, and I can leverage to help me talk about teaching skills to younger employees and finding appropriate tasks and delegation levels for a team (though that’s more cover-letter or interview topics, all that fits on the resume is a bullet)

    6. Pay no attention...*

      I think it depends on your level of hobby though — if you are in community theater but had never had a speaking part for instance, it probably wouldn’t be appropriate to add. I guess you could ask yourself, “would a director recommend me for a job in this?” even if a reference wouldn’t ever be requested. The problem with listing hobbies is that just doing a thing doesn’t mean you have measurable skill or knowledge. I’m an enthusiastic gardener that kills about 50% of my plants. I shouldn’t probably work at a botanical garden.

    7. Teacher Lady*

      I think only if it’s likely to highlight something that could be relevant to the role – but even then, I think it’s rare that it’s actually going to have an impact. For example: I’m in K-12 education, and if someone lists hobbies for which we offer/would like to offer a club for, we’re definitely going to bring that up in the interview. (Think stuff like team sports, arts and crafts, hobbies that utilize specific technology.) However: I have never even once seen that play into the decision to interview or the final hiring decision – it’s really just a hypothetical interview talking point. This is something that likely varies by field, though.

  14. Strict Extension*

    Has anyone had any success discussing moving your organization away from purchasing from Amazon? Working at a non-profit that values DEI, it feels like “fiscal responsibility” and ease of purchase always wins this battle, and I’d love to have more ammo on the side of ethical consumerism. I’m thinking the pitch is a concerted and publicized effort to support small local business as well as women- and minority-owned, but I’d love to hear other ideas.

    1. Cabbagepants*

      I think any company is going to care first about time and money. Are you prepared to research the time and cost associated with switching from Amazon to local businesses?

      1. Grenelda Thurber*

        The choice isn’t limited to Amazon or local businesses. Many other companies have thriving mail order options. Home Depot, Lowe’s, Walmart, Target, Office Depot, even Costco have mail order options. I’m not saying the alternatives are perfect, but they do exist.

        1. Cabbagepants*

          The point stands that most companies are going to expect a quantitative comparison of time and cost associated with switching vendors.

    2. Elsewise*

      I haven’t had this conversation at my workplace, but I think your instinct is good- it’s almost always better to start with replacing rather than just cutting something out. Aside from prices, Amazon is appealing because it’s easy to get a large variety of things at the same place and it’s often easier to find things there rather than searching the entire internet or hoping somewhere local to you carries it. So if you approach it from the standpoint of “let’s stop using Amazon,” you’re likely to get pushback from people who don’t know where else to buy things these days or don’t want to drive to three stores to try to find the special pens the boss likes.

      On the other hand, if you say “hey, I think we should make an effort to buy from more small businesses and support the local economy. I know of a Black-owned coffee shop that’s selling bulk now- maybe we could put in our next order with them?”, you’re more likely to get some traction. That might mean you’re buying coffee locally but still getting your office supplies from Amazon, but it’s still progress. And if you come back in six months with a suggestion to get your office supplies somewhere else, and someone else has a suggestion for a local printer, then it’ll be much easier to say “hey, we don’t need to be buying tissues at Amazon, let’s just get them at the grocery store” when that’s the only thing you’re still getting there.

    3. Anon4this*

      My partners company did this by making orders prioritized to local/smaller owned businesses. They were not a non-profit. Spouse didn’t make orders, but a team member did and they had long standing relationships with other companies (not Amazon).

      Honestly, some of the new stuff was awful and way more $$. One of the products they got the “same” two years in a row and the first year with the company they had long standing relationship was MUCH better. Quality was better, color and writing was better. The next year I can’t even explain it was so cheap, writing was off, color was way off. And the second year the items were more expensive and it was so cheap. It was difficult to also get reimbursed or items fixed because the businesses were smaller and I think did not have the capacity to do that type of order. This wasn’t a one-off thing either. They eventually did not have to give priority to those companies and could go back to the ones who produced better products.

      This is to say do your research. For non-profits you usually have to go with the cheapest or middle of the road price, but if it is the exact same item (pens, paper, etc) there really is not a strong argument for a non profit to go with a more expensive company imho. Can you look at companies that aren’t Amazon or see if you can get a discount for larger orders or signing a contract with them?

    4. FricketyFrack*

      I haven’t tried to get everyone on board, because there are too many and some of them would buy MORE from Amazon if I mentioned it, but I have stopped using them myself. I already tried to avoid them – their Amazon Basics paper is AWFUL and the better brand is twice as much as Office Depot charges us, they’ve sent us knock offs of Dymo labels that won’t work with the printers (and Dymo’s nonsense is a whole other thing), etc, but now I just straight up refuse to purchase from them if there is literally any other reasonable option.

    5. Wednesday Wishing*

      I would start by suggesting that the company join the local Chamber of Commerce, and then attend the meetings. This fosters ties with the local business people and then transitioning to doing business with those people takes on a more community based feel.

    6. Kay*

      The short answer is yes, I’ve had success. The strategy is going to vary greatly on your organization, what kind of capital you have, the budget and how inclined others are to join the cause if you aren’t a decision maker. The great thing about Amazon (or not great) is that they are horrible on pretty much every front so making a case against them is relatively easy outside a few niche things if you have the budget for it. You can often mitigate the cost factor as well by buying in bulk/on sale or getting creative.

      I would put some feelers out to people in your organization with influence and tailor your approach.

    7. Hyaline*

      I think it’s less about the pitch and more about doing the legwork yourself for something you believe is worth it. IMO you have to come armed to that conversation with hard numbers and clear alternatives, otherwise you’re highlighting a problem without proposing a solution–and even then, really consider if it’s the hill you want to die on.

      “Fiscal responsibility” means more money in the budget for the org’s mission–and that may, for many people, outweigh the downsides of doing business with Amazon. While some will look at “that’s great how they pivoted toward a Black-owned office supply company!” others might see “so they’re buying niche office supplies instead of letting that money go to feed hungry orphan penguins (or whatever the primary mission is).” So I think you have to prove that it doesn’t grossly affect the budget before a lot of people are going to listen.

      You’re also citing “ease of purchase”–are you doing the purchasing? If not, you may be ultimately suggesting that other people do more work, and that can come across as inconsiderate or even tone-deaf (especially if there are lower-paid staff doing this kind of work). So again, research an option that proves equally accessible, reliable, and easy to use (it might just not ship overnight). But again, if your option is “buy from these 25 vendors that are more ethical instead of one stop shopping at Amazon” but YOU aren’t doing the purchasing, be sensitive that you’re asking other people (who may be paid less than you) to do more work.

    8. Apex Mountain*

      Amazon’s cloud storage is where they apparently make a good deal of their money these days. Maybe you can have some luck in that area if your co uses them for this.

    9. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Whatever you can do to lower barriers to the other purchasing options will help, with the information about how it’s aligned with the organization’s values.

      Online ordering and delivery are undeniably convenient. Can you or someone you collaborate with develop the list of the kinds of purchases most easily moved to a local vendor, or a different online vendor clearly in line with the value statements?

      Then it becomes “we need to walk the talk and spending money with the businesses that share our values keeps us consistent and is a good message for our donors. I’ve identified alternatives that we can use.”

      This also kind of depends on how much they really mean it when you say they value DEI.

    10. Rex Libris*

      There is also the problem with unreliability or misrepresentation from 3rd party marketplace sellers, the variability in their pricing (today the widget is $10, tomorrow it’s $25) and their high damage rates due to poor (or occasionally nonexistent) packaging.

      I also find that quite often their prices aren’t much better, or sometimes worse than when using an industry specific vendor if you’re in an industry that has those, especially if they offer business discounts.

    11. allathian*

      I was the first to mention to our social media team that I think we should stop using Twitter/X, a few months after Musk bought it.

      I kept mentioning it every now and then in our departmental meetings when the comms strategy was on the agenda. At first the response was neutral (we see no need to change now, still have followers, but we’ll keep an eye on it).

      After the US presidential election the idea to leave X gained more traction, especially as ever increasing numbers of people have left the platform. At our last departmental meeting the comms director announced that we’ve officially left X and that there’s an announcement to that effect on our account, which we’re keeping to ensure that nobody else posts in our name.

      I have to say I was very happy to hear that news.

  15. MigraineMonth*

    I’d really love advice from trans folks in the US, if you’re willing. I work with medical records, and I recently finished a project to let patients specify their pronouns, which just appears after the patient’s name at the top of the page in the software so that all staff know how to respectfully address or refer to the patient.

    Unfortunately, it’s a pretty crappy time to be asking folks to do anything that might identify one as trans, particularly since the record doesn’t have any official indicators. (Our gender categories are set by the state and therefore, embarrassingly, “male”, “female” and “unknown”.) I’ve done what I can to make data-scraping difficult (text field rather than categories, no easy way to compare to gender, etc), but the data is automatically backed up and therefore couldn’t easily be destroyed even if a patient changed their mind and wanted to remove it later (or if the government/law enforcement demanded it).

    I’ve been going back and forth on whether to torpedo this whole project (my manager would let me, if I said I felt strongly about it), or to make the possible risks extremely clear, and I think I’m coming down on the side of letting trans patients make their own choice but including this info blurb:

    “Pronouns are only for display in the Client Header so patients are addressed respectfully, not for reporting. However, this information is backed up as part of the patient record, and with rapidly changing regulations we cannot guarantee it will not be used in the future to attempt to identify trans patients.”

    I could really use your advice both on the project and on the wording of the info blurb. Thank you, and I hope you are safe and well.

    1. Fluff*

      I helped develop something similar in our medical record for requested names and pronouns.

      Your point is VALID. I like the info blurb. Even with HIPAA, many situations allow for “de-identified” data. In the world of data science, you know how easy it can be to take a bunch of de-identified data and slap it in with data from other sources (credit, fb, etc.) and re-identify it. It saddens me to say that.

      Kudos to you for thinking broadly. Please keep the warning.

    2. Cabbagepants*

      I don’t know your software but having an image rather than text would, at least, seriously impede datamining. Would it be possible to have the database link an image file that is saved is a separate, easy-to-delete folder?

    3. peter b*

      As a patient, I would appreciate the blurb you gave so I could manage my own risk. You may want to keep an eye out on changes to the NCQA Health Equity Accreditation requirements, which historically have included gender identity data collection; due to the impact on e.g. health plans with that accreditation who are dealing with interpreting the recent EOs, I believe they’re updating the guidelines and potentially removing the SOGI collection requirements. I’m not necessarily convinced they should be what you emulate – your proposed idea seems best and I don’t know how NCQA will land – but it may give you more information and potential leads on how other patient-facing organizations are handling the increased risk to patients of storing gender identity information.

    4. AnonymousOctopus*

      As a nonbinary person who recently found a new PCP and was asked my pronouns, keep it with the warning. That would engender a TON of trust/appreciation for me; offering the option to specify pronouns and including the warning tells me that the organization supports and respects trans people while also understanding our experiences/fears about the current political climate.

      As an aside, the reason I was leaving my last PCP was because she worked for a religiously-affiliated organization who has been walking back their token DEI and “respecting people with uteruses to make their own decisions” policies. So seeing that my new doctor asked my pronouns and made sure they were recorded correctly in my record was a welcome change.

    5. Pocket Mouse*

      Thank you for being so thoughtful about this!

      I can’t speak from personal experience, but I imagine something like “If you prefer not to add your pronouns to your patient record, please feel free to inform reception of your pronouns when you arrive for your visit” would be additionally welcome. And then make sure a) reception has a way to make sure staff and clinicians the patient sees in that visit are aware (sticky notes?), and b) neither staff nor clinicians enter the patient’s pronouns into the software without the patient’s explicit permission.

      And a quick note – people aren’t usually “addressed” by their pronouns, they’re “referred to” by them. If honorifics are part of the software, please apply the same care around patient safety with that field as well.

      1. some dude*

        “people aren’t usually “addressed” by their pronouns, they’re “referred to” by them”

        This is a good point – using “patient” would forgo any misgendering or having people give up sensitive information. I do like your disclaimer.

        What a nightmare situation, that trying to be respectful to people might be weaponized against them.

        My org has done similar things with undocumented communities – we don’t engage with those communities directly, but we are being very cautious about what information we track and how we talk about them so that we can continue to support those communities without inadvertantly hurting them.

    6. Jigglypuff*

      I am glad you are making an effort to be inclusive, and a space for pronouns will be helpful!

      Something that might be more helpful, however, would be a preferred name slot. When I am in a medical office, it’s pretty rare for anyone to use any pronouns other than you/your when they are speaking with me, and tbh I won’t hear the pronouns they use when I am not in the room, etc.

      Preferred name slots are also useful for people who go by their middle names or a shortened version of their first name, etc. etc.

      As far as the blurb is concerned, it isn’t strictly necessary. Trans folk in the US already know how dangerous it is just to Exist As Trans, so any time we enforce our name or pronouns, etc, we run the risk of someone taking it poorly.

      1. Branch*

        The blurb also demonstrates how deeply the office is thinking about those risks, which would be good information to have.

      2. MigraineMonth*

        We already have a way to specify the name the patient uses (distinct from the legal name). This was an additional request from trans patients and their therapists. We never explicitly ask, “Are you nonbinary or trans?” but the pronouns field isn’t the only hint as to a patient’s gender identity in the record.

        I think one of the reasons I’ve been struggling so much with the decision of whether to proceed with this project is that we need to have an org-level conversation (and loop in legal!) about the data we collect and how we can best serve our patients while protecting them against governmental/legal persecution.

    7. Expectations*

      The problem with this is that pronouns are part of a version of USCDI which at some point will be mandated for medical-related data exchange without the need for patient consent (sexual orientation and gender identity as well as race, ethnicity, disability status, SDOH, and quite a few other potentially sensitive data elements are all part of existing versions of USCDI. So if someone supplies any of this information it almost certainly will be sent to all sorts of other medically related people and organizations if not now then in the future.

  16. Conference Attendee*

    TL;DR: The more annoying and pushy you are, the less likely I would connect to you.

    I am a woman in tech. I stated a strict LinkedIn connection policy on my profile: If we haven’t spoken to or worked with each other before, the requests will be ignored. Since I work for a company that is recognized in my field, too many people asked me for favours including job referrals. This policy respectfully cut down on lots of noise.

    I attended conference recently. I met a few folks during lunches and talks. Some asked me to add them on LinkedIn, which I agreed. After the conference, there’s a connection request with a note saying something along the line like “I sat right next to you during a talk but I was afraid to reach out”. I deleted the request without thinking.

    A few days later, someone from high school that I haven’t spoken to in 10 years emailed me out of the blue saying someone (cc in the email) saw me during a conference and would like to connect. I restated my LinkedIn policy and said the name did not ring a bell. Lastly, I reprimanded her not to give out my email without my permission. She apologized.

    My other social networks are exclusively for my personal friends and are private by default. This person sent follow requests to my social networks. I deleted those requests. Gosh, this person has my email address and could search in other places!

    1. Apex Mountain*

      I’m not sure if you had a question or just telling a story, but people use LinkedIn in different ways. It’s completely fine for you to have those boundaries, but connecting with people you met at a conference is very typical.

      1. Tristan*

        If I read correctly, this isn’t even a person Conference Attendee spoke to during the conference, just someone who sat next to them and has been spamming them with connection requests since.

        2. Conference Attendee*

          Yes, I believe the same person has spammed me with connection requests.

          When people requests me to add them to LinkedIn, we use the QR code from the LinkedIn mobile app. This way we both make sure that we don’t add someone who happen with a similar or the same name but different person.

      2. Antilles*

        Really? It’s typical to connect with people you met at a conference, true, but the rest of the behavior is way way outside the norm.
        Connecting with someone with a message saying “I was sitting next you but too afraid to even politely say hello” is laughably ridiculous. Reaching out to a (distant) mutual connection to have them ask for you is even more ridiculous. This is literally middle school behavior, where a boy is too shy to talk to his crush in person, so he instead leaves a note on your locker and asks a friend to ask you to dance with him.
        Also, afterwards sending follow requests on your other non-LinkedIn social media channels after you’ve ignored them is abnormal too.

          1. goddessoftransitory*

            That first one, the “I was too shy to say hi” thing? Sounds like a bot, honestly. That’s the kind of tease a lot of them use to pique interest.

        2. Conference Attendee*

          Even more ridiculous details: The mutual connection used to be in sales, but no longer work in the field. The person was one of her clients many years ago! Such info even weirded me out more than before!

      3. Whfhc*

        I get your point, but “we sat next to each other and didn’t talk” is a rather wide interpretation of “we met at the conference”.

    2. just a small town girl*

      This is sorta reminding me of the letter from a few weeks ago about the person who developed a crush on someone they met once and proceeded to nearly stalk them over the next couple of weeks. I’d be pretty PO’d at my former classmate for putting me in the position of having to keep an eye out for this person’s random connection requests.

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Ohhhh, yes, that one. I really wish a blanket policy of “If You Saw It In A Rom-Com, Do Not Try It In Real Life” could be laid down sometimes.

    3. Lady Lessa*

      Ironically, some relatives of mine with whom I had lost contact, found me via Linkedin, contacted my employer who gave them permission to reach out to me. My stephalf brother had died. We met up several times, but no true connection. (Perhaps, if it had been done when we were going up, but too many years and too many miles now.)

      1. Conference Attendee*

        I had former co-workers and high school friends who lost contact reached out to me on Facebook and LinkedIn. I’m happy to (re)connect with most of them indeed. There’s one odd person who sent me connection requests that I was comfortable to ignore.

        1. the cat's pajamas*

          I use a completely unique throwaway email for linkedin. I really hate it for many reasons, but it’s kind of a necessary evil in my industry.

          I used to have the setting on that only shows your firstname and last initial. Then, someone tagged me in a public post and my full, unique, and easily findable last name showed up. Since then I officially changed my last name to just my last initial and my profile is as locked down as possible.

    4. PotatoRock*

      You are totally within your rights to ignore these requests; and to not have social media followers you don’t know; but “no one ever asks to connect with me that doesn’t follow my boundaries” is not a realistic thing to expect (not saying it /shouldn’t/ be; rather that is /isn’t/). Just delete and move on

    5. Bitte Meddler*

      I don’t have the same policy as you do about receiving LinkedIn requests, but “I sat right next to you during a talk but I was afraid to reach out” would make me automatically decline them.

      If they were sitting right next to me, they could open their mouth and make small talk. The fact that they’re afraid (??) to talk to me face-to-face has “online creeper” vibes.

      1. WellRed*

        With all of the varying levels we see here of everything from social anxiety to spectrum disorders to language and cultural barriers, THIS is where you land? Creeper? I say that as someone who wouldn’t have been afraid to say hello.

      2. Conference Attendee*

        I’m creeped out for sure! I am not tall. For someone who could peeked my name tag hanging from the lanyard without alerting me is….sus! In addition, some of the talks weren’t very packed. The attendees could sit in every other seats at those times. Peeking at my name tag with this amount of distance is…extra sus!

  17. ghostlight*

    Today is my last day at the job I’ve been at for three years (hurray!). I’m really excited about leaving and my new job, but one thing has been really bugging me. My current boss’s boss is a woman that I have known for over 7 years and previously worked under at another company. I thought we were on really good terms (I was at her wedding last year), and I’ve always looked up to her and thought of her as a kinda-mentor for a long time.

    That being said, she has hardly said anything to me about leaving. She acknowledged it in a meeting earlier this week– ‘This is Ghostlight’s last meeting with us! They’ll be missed!’–but nothing has been said personally to me, and it really stings. Other people in the company that I haven’t known as long or don’t work as closely with have come by my desk to wish me well, and it feels weird that she has not addressed it with me. Frankly, prior to that comment in the meeting, it felt like she was icing me out. I guess I’m not sure if I should say anything to her about it or just say goodbye at the end of the day normally? Any advice is welcome!

    1. Charly*

      I can see how this would be really disappointing, but if I were you I would do my best not to take it personally. Maybe she’s preoccupied with something this week or has a lot going on at home and isn’t as present as she would otherwise be, for reasons that have nothing to do with icing you out. Even if this isn’t the case, try acting as though it is and give this person a cordial goodbye + express whatever appreciation you’d otherwise be inclined to. If you’re afraid the conversation will be awkward, perhaps you could leave a card instead.

    2. juliebulie*

      It’s most likely about her and not about you.
      Just say goodbye at the end of the day. Maybe she’ll gush at you and maybe she won’t. Some people dread goodbyes and try to avoid them.

    3. Not A Manager*

      I wouldn’t say anything “about it” in terms of her response to your leaving. Why don’t you take the time to specifically thank her for her mentorship/guidance/whatever and express that you’ll miss working with her?

    4. Ostrich Herder*

      Some people suck at goodbyes, and some managers get capital-w Weird about people leaving. That sucks, and I’m especially sorry it’s happening with someone you’ve seen as a mentor, I’m sure it really does sting!

      I wouldn’t say anything to her about her conduct, for fear of leaving things on a sour note if she doesn’t take it well. But it may be a good idea to be a little extra warm with her when you leave – tell her that you’ve looked up to her, learned a lot from her, and have really enjoyed getting to know her as well as working with her. Be prepared for her to be a little frosty with you, as she has been so far. Rehearse how you’ll handle it beforehand so, if it happens, you’re prepared to handle it with grace.

      But for the record, she’s the one being weird about this. Unfortunately, that means it’s probably not within your ability to change the situation, so I’d say take the high road on your way out!

    5. techie*

      I personally would let it go.

      It could be that she’s being petty or holding a grudge, or it could just be that she’s not being as conscientious as she should be because she’s busy. I know I’ve personally been in a position where someone leaving was something I didn’t have a lot of bandwidth to focus on.

    6. Chauncy Gardener*

      Just swing by her desk and tell her that you’ve enjoyed working with her and will miss that. Or whatever. That way you control the exit tone.

  18. Wilbur*

    Talked to a few coworkers this week and there was an interaction about expensing dinners/business entertainment that’s stuck in my mind. We’re on the engineering side of things. Coworker A had gone to a conference and saw the difference between travel expectations for engineers vs commercial/sales/marketing folks and was talking to Coworker B, who is also an engineer but on the commercial/customer facing side. Coworker A was focused on wildly expensive dinners/entertainment the commercial team engages on and asked Coworker B about it. Coworker B said he thought the commercial team was too capricious and extravagant with their spending, didn’t engage seriously with customers during these dinners/pro sports games/etc., and didn’t focus on things that actually would make a difference to customers. Coworker A asked if B was allowed to have the same kind spending limits (far beyond what engineers are normally allowed to spend). B said he didn’t engage with that and preferred to focus on the product and customer experience, and shared info on how he spent very conservatively on business meals (probably too conservative since he mentioned grabbing gas station food for dinner). A pushed a few more times on the spending limits question until B essentially said %$&*(&$# those guys, I can’t engage in that kind of waste when I see you guys working late getting cost savings. Throughout the whole thing it was pretty clear to me that B could spend a lot more but chose not to for ethical reasons. My question is how do you interpret Coworker A’s intent? He’s not a new college grad, he’s got at least 15 years of experience. Is A just oblivious and not picking up social cues or is he trying to scout out a role where he can spend big money?

    1. not spring yet*

      Or the other option that A is seething about the money and really needed an audience to vent at. It’s really hard to know without being there & knowing the people involved.

      1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

        This is what I immediately thought…A feels that engineers aren’t valued highly enough and wants more fodder to feed his resentment.

    2. WellRed*

      Outside of the c suite or similar, I don’t think spending levels should differ for different employees. I also think Bs a stuck in the mud.

    3. Reba*

      So B is a sales engineer or similar, and they get more exposure to sales than most people in the company. Maybe there is something else that bugs B about the work, and so the behavior of the sales team just grates that much more? Like, sales people repeatedly overpromise before looping in engineers, leaving engineers to say no sorry we can’t do that to new customers? I don’t think his critique is totally fair (I also don’t think being parsimonious on travel meals is particularly ethical???), but I get it.
      Sounds like A may have typical envy of sales, no matter how misplaced, it’s fascinating because it is pretty different from most kinds of work and it can look like just a parade of perks. Not all companies will have the same sales culture so it might be new to him even if he’s been working a while.

  19. Turducken In March*

    How can I manage being remote while part of the company is in-office? I’m starting a new remote role, but my boss, her boss, and a handful of team members are hybrid or totally in the office. It’s not an option for me to come into the office occasionally (that would require a plane). I’m nervous because not only am I new, but the position is new, too, so people may not know I even exist! I want to do well, just not be forgotten or not collaborative.

    1. Apex Mountain*

      One suggestion is in your first few weeks, schedule phone/Zoom intro calls with as many of your colleagues who you’ll be working with as you can. I would do this proactively – they’ll appreciate it and it will help with the remoteness

    2. LaminarFlow*

      Be active in your team’s slack channel, and use meetings as a time to be on camera, or at least participate heavily in the written and spoken chat. Also, since your position is new, you could start a newsletter that goes out to the team/org that talks about what you do. Over time, this can evolve into highlighting all of the cool projects you collaborated with A & B on, and all of the problems you solved with C on. Put in a blurb about how you would love for teammates to contact you for collaboration on projects, or just to say hi.

      1. cat herder*

        +1 for this newsletter suggestion!!

        Example of this working extremely well:
        At my old job, the new CISO (Chief Information Security Officer) as very remote (2 time zones away) from the office AND the position was newly created. He sent out regular company-wide newsletters about information security s that were good intel for *everyone* (i.e. how to spot phishing attempts). After his first year or so, he’d had a third party assess the company for security risks, and shared those results with everyone in an optional Zoom call (and emailed the results as well).

        Overall, very much applauded his level of effort with not only enthusiasm for his role, but enthusiastically staying connected with everyone, even though we only saw him in person twice a year.

    3. Toxic Workplace Survivor*

      I always suggest this one too. Ask your manager to help point out a few people on the team who would be good people for you to ask questions of when the manager isn’t available. She should have a good idea of “Josh would be good for xyz and Marie knows everything about abc.” That way you don’t get stuck in a situation where there’s a lower-stakes question you need an answer to but wouldn’t necessarily want to poke your manager.

      It’s a good way to set yourself up for success with the team, too — as well as 1:1s with each of them, asking something about TPS report protocol starts to build rapport in the early days before you know each other too well.

    4. Cabbagepants*

      Find a way to make a week-long visit some time in the next few months. I know not every company pays for this but some would and you should certainly ask and advocate for it.

  20. Binky*

    How do you, politely, address your managers when you feel like they’re lying to you about comp/promotion.

    When I was interviewing, I was told I could expect promotion in 2 years, assuming I’m doing fine, and that I could expect at least an X% bonus every year. I’ve been here a few years, all my annual reviews have been meeting expectations, and my bonus has not ever hit X% and I have not been promoted.

    I’ve asked a few times what the promotional criteria are, and gotten one answer from my boss and a different answer from my grand boss. But looking at the people who have been promoted since I got here (many who were hired around when I was), the criteria they’re laying out are inaccurate. We don’t have a published criteria to check, which has been asked for. I get the feeling that different managers are using completely different criteria. It doesn’t feel like my boss/grand boss are acting in bad faith, but I do feel like they aren’t particularly supportive either. The whole thing makes me feel gaslit and devalued.

    I know my concerns are shared by others at my level, and I hate confrontation, but I’m just really upset by this, to the point that I’m looking elsewhere and I’d rather not leave. So any advice would be appreciated.

    1. Goddess47*

      If you really want to stay at this job, then you need to do some work, I would think.

      Find someone who has been promoted to a position similar to what you are looking for. Flat out ask them what they did to get promoted. Prepare a couple of questions, if it helps. “Look, congratulations on your promotion. Can you tell me how that happened?”

      Other than that, since both your boss and grandboss don’t seem to be forthcoming, see if there are other positions in the company you might try for. Go out on a limb… can’t hurt to try.

      Good luck!

    2. RagingADHD*

      I think one of the things to find out is whether your company promotes and gives merit raises above COL increases based on “meets expectations”? Mine does not. That is the category at my job that indicates “you aren’t at risk of being put on a PIP, but you aren’t advancing either.”

      It is pretty normal for different managers to cite different criteria for advancement, particularly because people at different levels of the organization (like boss and grandboss) have different perspectives on the strategic goals of the team or department.

      Has your immediate manager, the one who gives you your performance review, explained what it would take for you to be rated “exceeds expectations” or “outstanding impact”?

    3. JustMyImagination*

      I’d stop asking what the promotion criteria is and switch to asking “what do you need to see from me for a promotion?” You know the criteria are not well-defined, documented and may vary from manager to manager so instead of asking a broad question they can’t answer switch to asking about your development and what you need to do to be promoted. That might be easier for them to answer.

    4. Hyaline*

      Well…to some degree, promotions may be more about the needs of the COMPANY, not just the merits of employees. If in your promotion line, you’re a gerbil feeder, and the next position in line is gerbil nutrition supervisor, but they’re full up on those…why would you believe you’re going to get promoted? So I might pivot to looking at not “what checkmarks to complete to be promoted” and more “what is my path for growth/my career ladder/my prospects here” and get some insight about that. Find mentorship in the company if you can to help you understand where you need to focus your career development and what opportunities might be open to you.

      The bonus question–is anyone getting bonuses at x%? The economy has been slow and volatile for years now, and that number may no longer be accurate.

    5. Scarlet ribbons in her hair*

      “When I was interviewing, I was told I could expect promotion in 2 years, assuming I’m doing fine, and that I could expect at least an X% bonus every year. I’ve been here a few years, all my annual reviews have been meeting expectations, and my bonus has not ever hit X% and I have not been promoted.”

      It sounds like bait and switch to me. My advice is to look for a job elsewhere.

  21. Beth**

    I have a new manager as of this week and it’s actually two people working part-time doing a job share. They have been job share partners for a number of years and even got promoted as a job share, so they know what they’re doing. They have reassured me that they have good mechanisms for handover etc.

    But does anyone who been in this situation have any tips or things to be aware of?

    1. EllenD*

      I’ve twice worked for bosses who were job-sharing. One pair split the work with each one dealing with specific work streams and managing the people leading on them. The other pair split it by the days they were working. So I’d suggesting asking for clarity about how they want to split the work and will they be covering for each other if a crisis emerges, while the usual lead is out. In both cases, they had a joint e-mail account, so could see all e-mails sent to them. So it was important to ensure e-mails go to the joint account and not their personal work accounts [only used by their boss for management matters, etc].

      1. Beth**

        They definitely split by days, but they also have part of the week where they overlap (and half a day where neither works). They have already told me that they don’t have a shared inbox (which is something that is a pain in the neck to arrange with our IT department, so I can’t blame them for avoiding the hassle).

  22. Nila*

    To people working in France, how do you deal with questions about your age, marital status, etc?

    I have recently moved here from US, and I know in the US, employers stay away from these questions. If I remember correctly it is not illegal to ask them in an interview but it is illegal to discriminate based on the answers. Most employers, therefore, stay away from asking these to avoid potential lawsuits.

    In Franec, it looks like many employers ask these and they do discriminate based on the answers, although technically it’s illegal. I searched a bit and many expats living in France say at the end of the day, you should answer if you want the job. I am a 35 yo woman with no kids (planning to have one at some point), and I am afraid these info may make me undesirable for employers.

    I had an informational interview with a seasoned expert in my field (White French man in his 60s), and he said “I only have two questions: do you like to work in *adjacent field*? and how old are you?”. He then spent 15 minutes talking about how I am too old and most people enter the field when they are 30-31. the fact that he even asked this question was very weird to me. He mentioned that my age *is* relevant in France and I may be missing opportunities because of it.

    I am looking for jobs here and it’s been an uphill battle :(

    2. Thanks guys!*

      Mid-40s career change? I’m in my mid-40s and in grad school, doing an MA out of interest rather than with a direct career path. I don’t want to go back to my old profession, and I do have several options, but sometimes I think about the fact that I’m old enough that age discrimination legislation applies in some jurisdictions. I don’t need advice, but some encouraging stories about folks who changed careers in their 40s or later would help me a lot!

    3. Artemesia*

      I don’t know that the French are MORE sexist than Americans in business but they are more openly sexist according to my French friends. i have heard so many horror stories.

    4. Joron Twiner*

      I work outside the US where I’ve gotten similar comments and age is regularly used as a synonym for experience.

      I’ve had more luck in international companies and in company cultures where there is naturally more churn. People were more forgiving of an unusual or unexpected background than companies where people joined straight after college and never change jobs.

      I would also not trust anything at face value said by a majority-for-that-area older man high up in the company. In my experience this group is the most used to being respected, getting the benefit of the doubt, and having their opinions and worldview unchallenged. They haven’t had to show deference or swallow their pride in a long time, and they’re not hungry for change. So when he says “you may be missing opportunities because of your age” he is saying “*I* think you’re too old, and *I* wouldn’t hire you as a result”. Someone who has had to struggle to get where they are, demographically or otherwise, might tell you a different story.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I will say that I have found the French to be very ageist, sexist and racist, and I’ve worked with the French a LOT. And if you’re female, they’re even more ageist.
      No advice, I’m afraid, but it’s not in your head.

  23. Middle Manager in the Middle*

    I work for a small, volunteer-based program that’s under the umbrella of a much larger nonprofit. Our program has five staff members. I’m in charge of day-to-day operations and I manage our three front-line/administrative staff members, April, May, and June. I report to our director, who reports to the division director.

    Autumn, our previous director, was promoted to division director and we hired Kyle to be our director. (Note: I turned the job down, so nothing about this issue is because I wanted that job.) The transition has been very, very rough. Everyone involved, including me, should have done some things differently.

    Autumn is in a different building and wasn’t aware for a while of how bad the conflict between Kyle and our other staff (primarily May and June – April was hired after Kyle had been there for a while and the issues already started) was until recently. Some of it is personality/working style conflicts and some of it is that Kyle wants to do things differently and people are resistant to it (sometimes for very good reasons and sometimes not). Autumn is now involved in trying to solve it. I thought things were getting better. However, in a meeting Autumn had with me this week, I learned that it very much is not: To get to the printer, which is closest to April’s desk, Kyle has to walk past May and June’s desks, and he will not acknowledge or say hello to them and then chit-chat with April, which is making things uncomfortable for everyone. The way our physical space is set up, I am not in a place to see/hear this when it happens.

    Autumn said April, May, and June “probably need to vent” and she thought it would be a good idea if I had a meeting with the three of them and said to them that Autumn is working with Kyle and I am here to listen. I have in the past heard some of their issues and taken them to Kyle without success. I don’t think it’s a good idea to have a meeting for the team to complain about our director, but I do need to do and say something, and I could use some advice on how to go about this.

    Do I have a team meeting? Do I address this in our weekly individual one-on-ones? What’s a good script? I want to acknowledge the issues and that they are being worked on, and let them know I will help if they need to get something from Kyle and that I will go to bat for some things (I have talked him out of some ideas that would be bad for our program), but I’m not his boss and don’t have control over him, and don’t know exactly how to handle this with my staff.

    1. MsM*

      I do think the fact you weren’t aware more stuff had happened warrants letting April, May, and June know in your one-on-ones that you’ve heard there’s still stuff going on, and that you want to be aware of these things and be supportive if and how you can.

      Other than that, though, this sounds like a Kyle problem. Which means Autumn needs to do the work with Kyle, and then Kyle either needs to let April, May, and June that he’s fixed the issues or just demonstrate that he has by not pulling weird “I’m not talking to you” games any more. Or Autumn can set up the meeting herself to tell the department as a whole that it’s being handled at higher levels if she wants that message communicated at this stage. I guess maybe she wants to try and give you the credit for being on top of it, but this game of telephone she’s proposing just feels weird and not particularly helpful.

    2. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      A group venting doesn’t sound at all constructive. People will build on each other’s energy and it will feel worse than it actually is. They could also go away unsatisfied (because you definitely aren’t going to be solving things in the moment) and end up with a groupthink us/them mentality, viewing you as part of “the Kyle problem” rather than as their supervisor doing the best you can to address issues.

      I’d handle in 1/1 meetings. Let them know all the things you’ve outlined in the last paragraph. “I’ve learned more about how it’s not going smoothly for you and others on the team with Kyle. I’d like to understand what effects this is having on you and your work and I’ll be talking with each of you. I’m discussing this with Autumn and I need to know what’s most problematic so I can prioritize how we might approach this. ”

      In other words, you’re trying to frame it so it isn’t absolutely everything everywhere all at once that they unload on you. You want the most important issues so you can put energy there. The not-talking grade-school stuff might be the worst or it might not, if they’re asked to say what’s most problematic.

      It has to be hard on April if Kyle is talking with her and not May and June so this is a conversation with each of them. Being a favorite is an insecure seat that causes its own kinds of stress.

      I’d also try to sort out on the fly, or better yet later in a follow-up, which items are ones they’re just going to have to accept as part of the job. Help them identify that changes aren’t uniformly bad just because they come from Kyle. If they’re putting rocks in their own pack by framing everything as a problem instead of a situation you may be able to help them recognize they can alleviate some of the stress themselves.

      1. Middle Manager in the Middle*

        Thank you. This is very helpful advice and perspective! The us/them dynamic you’re describing is something that has happened at some times as I’ve been trying to navigate it, so I appreciate the thinking about how to avoid that.

  24. Ally*

    I work in a department of about 50 people spread amongst several teams. This week an internal transfer started in one of the other teams in the department. I had heard the person speak at an all-company meeting last month about their experience of being non-binary, so I know they are out at work as NB. They present as female looking. A couple of questions:

    1. I have heard other members of their team refer to them as “she” when they are not around. Should I say something?

    2. There are two all-gender bathrooms on our floor. One is very obvious (you would pass it getting from the lobby to where our department sits) but nor super convenient for where our seats are. However, the other one is in a corner very close to where the person sits and no less convenient than the women’s bathroom I saw them using. Because of the corner location, I think it’s extremely likely they don’t know it’s there. I am tempted to say something like “I just wanted to let you know there’s an all-gender bathroom right over there. Obviously, the bathroom you use is your own choice, but I wanted you to know it was there so you could use it if it makes you more comfortable.” Or is that over-stepping?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      For question 1, do you know what pronouns your coworker uses? Some non-binary people do use she/her or he/his pronouns. If you know for sure that she/her pronouns are misgendering (for example, if they talked about their pronouns during the all-company meeting or if they have only they/them pronouns in their email signature), I think you should say something when other people misgender your coworker. A quick “oh, Alex uses they/them pronouns” interjection should do the trick.

    2. Emily Byrd Starr*

      I don’t think it’s overstepping as they are both all gender bathrooms. Now, if you told them that they couldn’t go to the ladies’ bathroom because they don’t identify as a woman, THAT would be overstepping.

    3. Alex*

      Yes, if you know that they use they/them and never use she/her, quickly correct people that you hear using the wrong pronouns.

      I’d leave the bathroom thing alone. You don’t want to make them feel like their bathroom habits are being monitored.

    4. peter b*

      I use they/them pronouns at work and look rather feminine. If a coworker messaged me to say “I noticed people using she/her for you, but what pronouns do you use? Wanted to make sure I had it right,” it would be a really nice thing. Correcting people’s pronoun usage for myself gets really old really quick, so I tolerate a lot of she/her-ing because gender is complicated and I use she in some contexts voluntarily, it’s not worth it for me a lot of the time. But it means the world when other people check with me and practice correcting others in a casual, non-disruptive way. Similarly, I don’t think your plan to mention the bathroom that’s closer would be weird at all!

    5. Ally*

      I should add that my desk is right next to the bathroom doors for the men’s and women’s rooms, so although I’m not the bathroom monitor, it’s hard not to notice sometimes.

    6. ThatGirl*

      You should definitely correct pronouns when you feel comfortable, but do so casually like “hey, Wren uses they/them pronouns”.

      *note that I am cis but have nonbinary coworkers I’ve had to do this for

    7. Mesquito*

      I am nb and when asked my official pronouns I say they but I don’t use any particular one in real life. My nb sibling doesn’t use “they” at all, only “he” or “she.” I prefer that no one correct anyone about my pronouns unless they’ve had like, a full blown private convo w me about it, but I also know it’s coming from a good place so I’m not offended by that overstep either.

    8. cmdrspacebabe*

      As a non-binary person: If you know they use “they” and are being misgendered, I might correct people softly – “I think X has ‘they’ in their signature, actually!”. My first move is generally just to very prominently refer to people by the correct pronoun, though – go out of my way to use it in sentences so they get used to associating it with the name (also this way I don’t have to listen to any “Oh no I didn’t mean it I’m so sorry” speeches).

      I wouldn’t bring up the gendered bathroom thing that way unless they mention it first, though – even when clearly well-meaning, it would feel like too much. If bathrooms ever happen to come up in some other way, though, I would totally say something like “Oh, I usually use the all-gender one in the corner over there – it’s [more convenient/more private/nicer selfie lighting/some other non-gender reason].” Then you get the information across without making them feel like you’ve been Having Thoughts about their use of gendered facilities, which would feel weird to me even if said Thoughts were well-intended.

    9. EMP*

      Don’t bring up the bathroom, that’s invasive and honestly sort of patronizing. I’m sure if they cared, and are “talk to the whole company” levels of out, they can ask someone about bathroom options.

    10. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      Did someone show them around the space when they started and introduce them to people? If not, you could volunteer to do this. Introduce them and the pronoun use is easy to add: “Alex just started and they’re going to be sitting in the far corner when they’re in the office.”

      You can walk them around the floor and show them where things are without highlighting the bathroom as a standalone “hey look here”. Otherwise the bathroom comment feels like an invasion of privacy. You don’t know whether they’re perfectly happy using the women’s room and someone noticing which bathroom I use would feel weird even if you sit right by it. It means you’re also noticing which bathroom I don’t use and that’s way too into my business.

      Very kind of you to be thinking about their comfort, truly. You could also just *ask them* what they’d like you to do when you hear them being referred to as she/her.

      1. Beth**

        They aren’t on my team, so I’m not quite sure what induction they had to the building when they started. It’s also possible that no one on their team has noticed the bathroom in the corner. It’s rarely used. (You can hear the hand dryer from outside the bathroom when it’s in use and it’s always a bit of a shock to hear it — only a couple of times a month.)

    11. Hyaline*

      I’ll dissent a little on the bathrooms–the “hey new person, there’s a thing you might have missed because it’s sorta hidden” element makes it more normal to me to point it out, in the same way you might say “Oh, there’s a microwave in the break room, but it’s in the cabinet” or “they keep the training manuals in a really weird, obscure place, let me show you.” So the first half of your statement–“By the way, we also have an all-gender bathroom, but it’s hard to see, just an FYI”–if part of a normal, natural “how’s things going getting settled” kind of conversation feels like normal welcome to the team info, but leave off all the couching that could make it weird and presumptive or prescriptive.

  25. Lucky*

    I am a woman in a leadership role in a mid-sized corporate environment. Over the years I’ve occasionally been accused of being ‘harsh’ or ‘hostile’ in my email communication, which when read by other women, I’m told are totally reasonable and neutral. I received this criticism from a colleague yesterday, in response to an email that contained step-by-step instructions to complete a task with each requested step starting with ‘please.’ Believe me, the email is entirely neutral-to-friendly in tone.

    How do I respond to this kind of critique? What action can I take, even if just to document “My dude, you say I was harsh, point me to the words that hurt you?”

    1. Eleri*

      That is exactly what I would do – have them explicitly name what they consider “harsh” or “hostile”. I have done this in various situations, and every time the person who made the comment has dropped it and not bothered me again. If they were truly acting in good faith and wanted to give you feedback, they would have an actual example ready. Sometimes I can be a little blunt in my communications, and if the person I was dealing with was not a bigot, they had real, actionable, concrete feedback. The bigots just threw around things like “harsh” and “hostile” and then would clam up and not be able to explain themselves.

      I approach it, “I’m surprised by that, other people have said it was fine. Can you point out to me what sounded harsh or hostile?” You can bring it up in a friendly way, but the act of calling them out on it usually takes care of it.

      1. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        I support this comment. If it’s a legit complaint, he can back it up. I also believe you, Lucky.

        Not a fan of the other commenters working so hard to justify random dude’s sexism and how you should do so much more work to coddle him.

        1. allathian*

          Yeah this. A “would you think this email was harsh if it was written by a man?” Might be a bit nuclear, but tempting.

        2. Porque answer*

          Here, we have a case where a man accused a woman of something that she has been accused of many times. Who said she didn’t do it? Other women.

          There is definitely a pattern on this site for many commenters to jump to describing the other person as sexist. I’ve seen it many times where people jumped to sexism even when both parties were women.

          Sexism is real on both sides. It’s very popular because it’s very satisfying to just claim sexism — it means you did nothing wrong and the entire onus is on the other person to change. Who wouldn’t want that answer? But that’s not how interacting with people works.

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      When I’ve heard people say the sort of criticism you are receiving, it is because the person in your position is not answering the real question being asked, is missing the key issue from a meeting or question, or is assuming something is easy/possible when it is not

      So having someone rereading the email wouldn’t help, since any given email in isolation will technically seem fine. It’s the background and subtext that is missing. It’s not literal hurtful words.

      For example, two jobs ago, they’d sometimes try to launch services that lower level people knew would not be popular. So we’d ask “are you sure you want us to launch X.” And get “just make a brochure, price it with your director, and see if your customers want it.” And we’d be frustrated like, yes, that’s the physical process of launching a product, but not really the gist of the email

      So the emails would feel harsh because they were putting responsibility down to lower levels to clean up messes the higher ups didn’t want to deal with

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        I suspect in Lucky’s case though, it’s more a gendered thing. It’s not uncommon for women to be judged as being harsh or hostile when a man could send the exact same e-mail without anybody thinking anything of it.

        And of course some people just are unreasonable or “shoot the messenger” and decide a message was hostile because it asked them to do something they didn’t want to.

        Of course, it is possible that Lucky didn’t give all the information or was otherwise unhelpful, but I wouldn’t assume it.

    3. LaminarFlow*

      I went through this several years ago. I asked my manager to weigh in on the tone of my communication, and he didn’t understand how/why my communication was perceived by some as harsh. So, I decided to try a couple of different things to see what might resonate, and change perceptions. For a month, I used more adjectives when explaining something in an email or document. The next month, I reverted to my normal communication, but I added an emoticon here and there (this was pre-emoji).

      The few emoticons somehow solved it for me. I still giggle that a smiley face changed so much for how some people perceive my communication, but who cares – it worked :)

    4. Anon4this*

      I am a woman and I feel your tone in the comment a little much. Ask them respectfully what they felt was harsh and what they think you might work on.

      Did you write “please” on each step or just once? The former I would find patronizing.

      Also, why did you give step-by-step instructions? Did the person do it incorrect the first time? Is this a new task? Does this person usually forget a step or make mistakes?
      Usually you don’t need to give step-by-step instructions unless it is one of the above or you’re a micromanager. If the task is new maybe take the time to speak with them about it or see how they would like to communicate?

      Do certain people also say they feel this when you speak in person or is it over emails? When others say the emails are fine are they on your level? Below? Above? I think we all should really think about if you act/treat people different based on job/level. My partner can be very to the point and sometimes they ask me to read emails and I try and soften them depending on the recipient. Maybe have someone who is completely separate read them and see what they think.

      I have never once been told I am ‘harsh’ or ‘hostile’, but if I were I would take a deep dive. I would ask multiple people (not just women) their thoughts and try to make some changes in future.

      I think it also matters your intent. Your intent in the message and your intent going forward and it sounds like your intent is not necessarily positive by your last sentence. Try and learn something from what happened, don’t negate this person’s feelings and use it as a learning experience.

        1. Porque answer*

          Anon4this’s comment is not harsh in any way whatsoever. It was thoughtful and helpful, if OP is looking for advice and not just unconditional support.

          FWIW, your comment hit me as harsher than hers.

      2. Jobbyjob*

        As someone with a more blunt style of communication I disagree that we should always be the ones tying ourselves up in pretzels to seem nice enough. Sure, keep an open mind that the feedback might have merit and approach this area with a growth mindset, but the sensitive recipient ought to do the same.

  26. Cissy Cobol*

    We recently hired a new manager at work who uses terminology around meetings I’ve never heard before: When he cancels a meeting, he says he’s “pulling down” the meeting, or this or that meeting needs to be “pulled down” if we don’t have quorum. I don’t know much about the guy, including where he’s from or where he’s worked before, but I’ve lived/worked in corporate offices in New York, California, Washington, D.C., and Louisiana and never heard this term.

    Anybody else????

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      People use “pull down” for things like blog postings, advertising campaigns, etc. Does he come from a PR/marketing/advertising background?

      1. techie*

        Idk, I’m in marketing and I would also find it weird that this guy is saying that in this context.

        1. Cissy Cobol*

          Ironically, our department IS marketing. I might say “take down” a blog post and wouldn’t blink at “pull down” a blog post but I’d never apply it to a meeting

    2. Wednesday Wishing*

      (ehh is he old enough to remember when stuff like this was posted up on a bulletin board, which them had to be physically taken down after)?
      But really-
      I feel like maybe he just heard someone use this term and thought it sounded cool so he keeps using it.

      1. Cissy Cobol*

        He’s definitely not any older than I am (40) and could be as much as a decade younger!

    4. Sparkle*

      DC-based fed here. I have heard this frequently and didn’t know it was considered odd!

  27. Eli*

    Hi everyone. I’m wondering if anyone has experience with preliminary job interviews that happen over chat/ instant messaging. My partner was once targeted in an employment scam, and what alerted us to the scam was that all of the interview process happened over chat. (Thankfully, it never went further than that because my partner refuse to give out his personal information.) Now he has another preliminary interview over chat, and I’m wondering if chat interviews are always a sign of a scam or if there are certain industries where first interviews normally happen over chat. My partner was also recently interviewed by an AI chat bot, and I’m wondering if others have seen something like this before. It just feels a little weird.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I never respond to any kind of job communication that begins over chat or text. My guess is that they’re all scams. Every time I get a text from an unknown number asking me if I’m interested in a job, I ignore it. If a recruiter wants to reach out to me cold they can do it on LinkedIn or Indeed, and if for some reason they have my resume with my number, they can call me.

      If I got an email or phone call requesting to set up a first interview via text or chat, I would ask for a different platform or I would decline. My field just doesn’t do text or chat interviews, so maybe I’m behind the times, but I find that method very strange and impersonal. And yes, I just go straight to “scam”.

      Tell your partner to get a company name and the name/phone number of the person he’s chatting with. If they won’t share that, run far away. If they do share it, look it up before he speaks to anyone to make sure it’s legit.

  28. Green Goose*

    Background: My company, like many others, will be required to be in-office four days a week starting in about two months. When I first started, slightly over a year ago, the requirement was two days but during the summer it was only one for our team. The summer was lovely!
    Then it got upped to three days in the Fall and I’ve been pretty exhausted since then, and I’m really dreading the four days in. I accepted this job because the pay was quite a bit better than other similar roles, and even though the commute was rough (70-80 minutes each way), I justified it because it was “only two days” and it was a good financial choice for our family. The three days have been challenging because we have two young children that require different drop-offs and pick-ups so my partner is taking on the lion’s share of that while also working FT.
    I’m in a role that is part of one of the recent mass layoffs industries so every job application I see gets flooded with inquiries and I’m seeing companies taking postings down after a day or two.

    Question: Are there things that others have asked for when their company upped the in-person days to make it more manageable for your family? I’m thinking of asking if on one of the days I can come in late so that I can still drop the kids off. I’m not expecting to work less hours, it’s just really hard on our family for me to be gone 10-11 hours a day four days a week. Let me know if there are asks I can make that I’m not thinking of.

    1. Wednesday Wishing*

      You don’t get what you don’t ask for, so by all means ask to shift your schedule a bit if that works. The situation can only 1) improve or 2) stay the same.

    2. HannahS*

      My partner and I juggle my job (in person 5-6 days a week) and my husband’s (in person 2 days a week.) Here’s what we do:
      -both of us get permission to come in late or leave early on certain days so we can take turns on drop-off and pickup
      -he occasionally asks to flex time so that he can work through lunch and leave an hour early
      -my work is sometimes more task-based, so on those days I can power through and finish my tasks, leave and then do all the paperwork late at night

    3. Anon4this*

      If you’re a strong performer you should be able to have flex-time.

      My partner manages a large team and allows flexibilty if they get their work done/ don’t do it every day and are there for important meetings and core hours. You always have your people who don’t MYOB who then complain that X and Y got to leave at 3PM while everyone else has to stay until 5pM not realizing X and Y worked until 11 PM the night before/are high performers/etc.

      My partner has been 4 days RTO since 2022 but is allowed flexibility because they are high performing and their team gets that too. If someone doesn’t do the work on time/holds people up/doesn’t do good work the flexibility isn’t usually extended.

      I have allowed people to leave early but then ask they be available by phone if an emergency comes up and check their email at least once that evening.

      That is a long commute. Do you have a network? Use it and tell people you are looking. Apply for roles early, once they come online. Can you pivot and do something else? Maybe apply for roles that hit some of your qualifications, but not all and see what happens.

  29. Omelas employee*

    New manager here, I have a small team with one employee, Linda, that is pretty miserable. Linda in turn is making everyone else miserable by making comments with a passive aggressive tone, continuously threatening to report them to HR for small things, and unsubtly bringing up her coworker’s performance at staff meetings in front of everyone. Linda has reported her coworker Jane to HR over 3 times and every time her previous manager or I has investigated, we cannot find evidence to back her claims. We have also noticed her misrepresenting the truth even in one on one coaching sessions and pushed back on it. Needless to say, she is not a reliable source due to all these inaccurate claims and escalation to HR over petty things. I don’t have the authority to do any firing/disciplinary action yet (probationary period), and my company is very slow to fire anyone.
    How do I talk to Linda about her attidude?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “Linda, you seem really unhappy here. Part of my job is to see to it that my team members have the resources they need to do their work. If there’s something here that’s making it difficult for you to do your job, I need to know about it.”

      If there’s an objective issue she mentions, you can address it. But if all she has in response is a complaint about Jane, which doesn’t actually impinge her job performance, you come back with “Another part of my job is to see to it that my team members can work together respectfully and productively. And we need to address that – you’ve not been treating Jane respectfully. You don’t have to like her personally, but you have to treat her professionally **in the workplace** so we can all do our jobs.”

      Also, don’t discount the possibility that Linda is a chronic complainer. There is literally nothing that anybody can do to make her happy, because if you fixed all her “problems”, she would find something new to complain about.

      1. MsM*

        All of this. Also, talk to HR about what you can do once the probationary period ends to either immediately get Linda on a robust improvement plan that will result in termination if she doesn’t shape up, or get the company to agree this just isn’t working out.

        1. Mockingjay*

          You may not be able to fire during your probationary period, but can you put Linda on a PIP now? That way you have information to make a solid decision when you are permitted to do so.

          If not, have the conversation @Alton Brown’s Evil Twin recommends. I would also make it clear that any complaints Linda has, especially regarding a coworker, need to be made to you, not HR. You will escalate to HR if warranted.

          1. Omelas employee*

            I’ve never put someone on a PIP before, but what would be the thing that needs improvement from Linda? Would this fall under the category of “collaboration and culture,” or “problem solving,” etc.?
            HR has warned me to not close doors for her but you are absolutely correct that she is escalating inappropriately and problems with a coworker start with your manager.

      2. WellRed*

        If I were Jane I’d be raising hell right about now that you managers keep investigating her on one known grumps complaints and for fun, I might make a report right back! I like all of Alton’s advice but would probably try to add something like “maybe this isn’t the right fit for you.”

        1. Omelas employee*

          That’s the thing, Jane has approached this with a head-down-get-work-done attitude and has not made her own complaints. She honestly should but I can’t be the person to tell her that.
          Jane, in my opinion, totally has a case against Linda for targeted harassment.

          1. Storm in a teacup*

            But if you are Jane’s line manager I think you have the authority to do something about it

    2. Polly Hedron*

      I don’t have the authority to do any firing/disciplinary action yet (probationary period)

      I don’t understand this policy. Most places make it easier to fire probationary employees.

      Anyway, please try Alton Brown’s Evil Twin’s script.

      1. allathian*

        I understood that as the OP being a new manager in their probationary period. I think it makes sense not to allow managers to make unilateral firing decisions in their first few months on the job.

  30. JustaTech*

    Thank you everyone for the advice on how to survive a week on the night shift! It went really well; I learned a lot of stuff, answered a lot of questions (if not as many as I wanted), and got to put faces to names.

    And boy howdy do I hope I don’t have to do that again any time soon.

    1. SicktomyStomach*

      Cheers to you! In my days as a law firm technical trainer, I had to work the overnight shift to train the night staff. I did it, but it was exhausting and I never wanted to do that again.

  31. Almost Jobless*

    I’m in the process of being fired. In a way, it’s good, because my boss is horrible. She thinks everything I do is bad, which sounds like an exaggeration but it’s really not. HR has not been helpful, and I have been called insubordinate for asking what we can do in a situation where my boss is asking for things that are not reasonable and would make me unable to do my job. It’s bad because I have some health issues that make me unable to work full time, and disability doesn’t even pay enough to cover my rent. So I’m stressed and terrified about the future, but it’s nice to think that soon she’ll be out of my life and I’ll never have to see her again.

    1. Mockingjay*

      If you haven’t been formally fired yet, is it feasible for you to resign? I ask this with caution. Check your state’s unemployment qualifications – most voluntary resignations do not qualify for benefits. (I’d check the quals anyway, better to be prepared and know benefits you can apply for and what info you’ll need to submit.)

      Otherwise, during the firing discussion, be candid about circumstances. Acknowledge that this role was probably not the best fit for you (this phrasing assigns no blame to either side) and ask if a neutral reference can be offered – perhaps ExCompany simply confirm your employment during a reference check.

      Firings are emotional events. Taking the high road of being polite and nonconfrontational might incline HR to be more reasonable and ensure your record isn’t quite so tarnished.

      1. Almost Jobless*

        I have been trying to hang in as long as possible because I don’t have enough money saved to last more than a few months. My state is very stingy with unemployment, so if I could get that it won’t help much. I think it will take a long time for me to find a job if I find some resolution for my health issues (it’s undiagnosed, so I’m not getting better any time soon).

      2. AndersonDarling*

        I’d ask HR if you could negotiate a departure.
        “I’m sure you are aware that Boss and I are not working to the best of our abilities together. I’ve been trying my best to meet her expectations, but I have a feeling that she would prefer that I was gone. If that’s the case, I’d like to discuss a stress free departure.”
        The key things you would want are 1.) a reasonable reference, 2.) Health Insurance coverage for a month of two, 3.) And possibly some severance. You should at least get two weeks of pay.
        HR will likely be thrilled to have a reasonable discussion rather than dealing with your boss’s drama.

    2. Isabel Archer*

      I’m sorry, Almost Jobless. That sounds really stressful. I hope better circumstances come to you soon.

  32. J*

    I’m a PhD student in my first year.

    There’s a third year PhD student in my department who continuously fondles his own chest while presenting. If he isn’t doing that, he is scratching the back of his head.

    It’s really distracting from his presentation. If I were caressing my boob while talking it would probably look weirder, but it isn’t suddenly normal if you’re a man doing it, right?
    Or am I weird that I find it distracting?

    His supervisor is remote so I think he doesn’t see how this PhD candidate moves while presenting.

    Should I say something?
    Somebody in the past 3 years will surely already have pointed it out to him?

    1. CommanderBanana*

      He probably doesn’t realize he’s doing it. I had a coworker who had long, straight hair, and CONSTANTLY yanked it over her shoulder and twirled/pulled/ran her fingers through it. Her job also required a lot of public speaking, and it was very distracting.

      When she started appearing regularly on our org’s webinars that I moderated, I did say something to her, and she started wearing her hair in a braid or bun when she spoke. It was so unconscious to her that she literally didn’t realize she would spend an entire presentation pulling on her hair.

      If he’s asking for feedback or you’re being asked to give feedback on his presenting style, I think you can say something. I tend to talk with my hands and have gotten presentation critiques that mention it and have tried to tone it down.

      If he’s not asking for feedback, file this under not your thing to fix.

      1. MsM*

        I feel like you could ask if he’s open to feedback, and be clear that you’re sharing because you don’t want a few unconscious tics to distract from some really great content if he agrees, but don’t push if he’s not interested.

    2. JustaTech*

      If it seems to be an unconscious thing, I wouldn’t say anything about it (which is probably what everyone else has decided as well). I have a friend from college who will suddenly and sharply jerk her head to one side (like she’s trying to crack her neck) and when I commented on it to some of our other friends they had literally never noticed that she does it. So you’d be amazed at the habitual motions people make that they aren’t even aware of.

      Now, if it looked like this grad student was doing the chest-rubbing deliberately to try and get a rise out of people, or to make them uncomfortable, then that’s a different thing, and it might be worth asking some of the other grad students about (I wouldn’t start with your advisor).
      But if he just seems to be an itchy person (or still uncomfortable while giving presentations) then do your best to ignore it.

      1. Grenelda Thurber*

        “I have a friend from college who will suddenly and sharply jerk her head to one side” – My dad and grandmother both performed movements similar to this all their lives. My dad was eventually diagnosed with Tourette Syndrome. I assume grandma would have received a similar diagnosis if she had pursued it.

    3. appo*

      I think most people recognize it for the nervous tic it is. If feedback is typically welcome or asked for I think you can mention the fidgeting but otherwise leave it alone

    4. Hyaline*

      “Somebody in the past three years will surely have already…”

      Oh, sweet summer child, no. No, someone has almost certainly NOT pointed it out to him because the average academic is not great about having difficult or uncomfortable conversations. Sorry, not sorry, but the reality is…academics are often very awkward people who you could even say lack a backbone when it comes to this kind of thing and often avoid hard conversations. So no. No one has said anything, and it’s really not your job to do so. If there’s an opportunity to give “peer feedback” on presentations or teaching demos or anything, you could certainly tactfully mention that you found his hand movement distracting and perhaps suggest holding a clipboard until he learns to control his hands while speaking, but if no opportunity is provided and you have no rapport with this person, I’m not sure what your “in” is to tell him even though SOMEONE doing so would be a kindness.

      1. Nesprin*

        +1 academia is full of awkward people and giving feedback can be fraught. I had to ask a fellow grad student to shower daily and after going to the gym when I was about your age.

        The advice about peer feedback when practice talks come up is good. I’d add that I’d give this feedback to someone in my lab group or someone who I’m friendly with, but probably wouldn’t for someone I’m less well connected with.

      2. Conference Attendee*

        “the reality is…academics are often very awkward people who you could even say lack a backbone when it comes to this kind of thing and often avoid hard conversations.”

        +1. When I worked at the university, I pointed out some “uncivilized behaviour” at work but was backfired. I got gaslighted and eventually left. To this day, I still stand by what I told my supervisor but I was the one who suffered from bad consequences. I can’t fathom how the public money is spent on post-secondary schools that put those scummy people under the rug.

  33. Tea Monk*

    My boss will be out for a month and I’ll be switching to a new team. I’m a little nervous. I worked with the team lead before but I’m not sure about sussing out team dynamics and everything

  34. M*

    My partner is going through it at work. His boss recently transferred teams and now my partner is taking the brunt of what use to be his bosses job and its very stressful. The grandboss says that they’re going to hire someone, but it looks like that will take time. My partner is looking at other positions, but that too, takes time, and I can tell he’s losing patience/hope with it all.

    I just feel really helpless in this situation and wish I could do anything to help.

    1. Almost Jobless*

      Can he ask for a temporary pay raise because he’s doing the extra work? A decent workplace will do that.

    2. Wednesday Wishing*

      Does HE want the job? Maybe he should let the boss know he is open to it, and that they can replace his current job instead.

    3. Mockingjay*

      Have him go to Grandboss and ask for priorities. He should be matter-of-fact: He can do some of ExBoss’s work, but it’s not feasible to do it all, so which 2 or 3 things are essential to cover? Also note the impact on his own role: while he can cover the 3 essential Boss tasks, this means some of his own tasks will not be completed. Treat it as a scheduling meeting, because that’s what it is.

    4. Goddess47*

      What Mockingjay said.

      When it’s especially bad, think of it as ‘malicious compliance’ and only do what is outlined and the rest is ‘sorry, you need to ask Grandboss’ — to everyone. The more your partner does, the slower the hiring process will be. Push as much up and they can and let Grandboss feel the pain.

      Good luck!

      1. goddessoftransitory*

        Agree with this! Grandboss will take as much time to hire on a new employee as is comfortable FOR HIM. So if it gets to be more trouble than it’s worth to not have that person hired, action will be spurred.

    5. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      You can’t do anything for his work stuff, but you can certainly help at home. Tell him you see how hard it is for him. Ask him what he wants from you!

      Does he need you to take on more chores while he’s handling such a hard job? Or maybe opposite, and he wants to do more stuff around the house to take his mind off work? You can be his vent board for 15 minutes each night, but then he has to stop so that it doesn’t take over all parts of his life (and yours). Maybe schedule more fun stuff out of the house so he forgets the work angst. Go on a weekend trip. Make sure he uses some PTO since this will not be over soon. Remember, this is a marathon, not a sprint.

      1. Emac*

        But what if I have questions that haven’t been answered or the answers are old and might not apply anymore? There has to be somewhere that is also good, though maybe not completely as good.

    2. Kimmy Schmidt*

      Try Corporette. It’s largely a fashion/work lifestyle blog, but the comments are open (provided you play nice and don’t feed the trolls) so you can ask questions or respond to other folks about various things. The comments are usually a mix of personal and work discussions.

    3. Paris Geller*

      There’s some decent work-related subreddits that seem to have active moderators and good advice from what I’ve seen, though I don’t follow any closely.

    4. Magdalena*

      1. Email Alison (as in, submit your own question).
      2. I love ask metafilter dot com for very thoughtful, nuanced answers, great moderation and knowledgeable members. You have to create an account to ask questions but the overall vibe is close to this blog. You don’t need an account to read and their main site metafilter dot com has great informative threads on many current topics – including The Current Mess.

  36. basicpumpkinbeotch*

    I just got laid off. This is the first time in my entire life (20+ years of professional jobs) that I have lost a job. I was not happy there and was looking to get out, but this still came as a hit. I have no idea how to feel and am scared to death about the job market.

    1. techie*

      I’m really sorry! Layoffs are so hard.

      A story to give you hope: My spouse lost their job as a software engineer in early February. They had only been in the field for 3 years as a full-time employee (was a former teacher) and I was really really scared about them finding something new since I know it’s a TERRIBLE market for devs right now. But within a month, they had a full-time offer (not super lucrative, mind you, but not a big step down!) and a 6-month contract-to-hire offer (similar hourly pay).

      They’re overall in a net better position, so while there are a lot of stories out there right now about job searches taking years and folks having to take big pay cuts, it’s not ALL like that, so I hope you have a similarly good situation <3

    2. SophieChotek*

      Wishing you well.
      I was laid off in the middle of the pandemic – working in corporate retail.
      I found a FT job within 6 months that I like much better, but I know not everyone was /is as lucky.
      I gave myself a 2-3 weeks to grieve/relax/recover, then hit the job market hard, leaned on contacts, went to every job fair/local connection group I could find, read and re-read Ms. Greene’s books and every applicable post here on resumes/cover letters/interviews, got everyone I could to give me mock interviews, etc.

    3. Lady Lessa*

      First, allow yourself to mourn and grieve.

      Perhaps, if you are a reader, even some standard books about grief might help. You are experiencing a death, the death of a job, and it hurts.

    4. Roland*

      There’s no correct way to feel! When I was laid off, it was a weird numbness with anger and sadness peeking in and out constantly.

      Sorry this happened to you, it sucks.

    5. Chauncy Gardener*

      I’ve been working for decades and I think I can accurately say that in these situations, everything works out for the best. Please read all the job hunting, resume writing and interviewing advice here at AAM and you will come out on top!
      Good luck!

  37. The Office Vegan*

    Some context: A little over a year ago I started a monthly, internal company newsletter. It goes out the first week of the month. A big prior complaint among our staff was lack of communication between departments. We have 70 employees, all working in one building, and some have never even spoken to one another even after years of working together. So, I made it my goal to improve that and it’s gone really, really well, and I’ve had great feedback from the staff. They like to see their accomplishments acknowledged and know what’s going on in other departments, and it’s fun. Anyway, I also send one to the owner of the company, who lives out of state but visits us every other month or so. This is the email he sent me regarding my newsletter:

    “Once again (My Name), the monthly newsletter is intelligently written, informative, and charming… Thank you. It’s like having Maureen Dowd on our staff!”

    Having my coworkers and staff happy about it has been wonderful, but getting that from the owner really meant a lot to me. (teary-eye smiley face emoji)

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Bookmark, print, cross-stitch, and engrave that comment. Fantastic thing to go in your annual review or resume.

    2. JustaTech*

      Oh wow! That’s an amazing compliment! Congratulations for having your excellent work appreciated!

      And to second AB’s Evil Twin, get that engraved on a plaque to keep forever. Put it on a pillow to take out and hug on the bad days.

    3. Isabel Archer*

      That’s great! Curious how it’s possible for such a small number of people to work in the same building for years without everyone knowing each other? You don’t work for Lumon Industries, do you?

  38. Dreading Documents*

    Maybe someone can give me some ideas for dealing with this situation. I handle very time sensitive tasks. I require documents from our customers to do my tasks. I am not supposed to contact the customers directly. We have a customer service type person who is the direct customer contact and they are supposed to be the ones to get me needed documents from customers. One of the CSRs has essentially stopped handling her customers and doesn’t get me needed docs. I email her daily with my manager and her manager in copy, but nothing happens. Her manager shouldn’t be one. Ignores all attempts by MY manager to solve the situation. My tasks are not meeting deadline because the CSR isn’t getting me docs. For our top customer, I quietly contacted someone I dealt with for years when I used to do the CSR tasks sometimes. Contact got me what I needed. Someone else at customer found out I had contacted them, not CSR, and it was a massive dust up. I got the documents I needed and deadlines were met. That’s the important part. The stuff about my department not contacting customer is stupid, especially when CSR is not doing her job. Hundreds of thousand, if not millions of dollars, could be at stake if these deadlines are not met. No one is addressing the CSR who has refused to do her job. She’s also doing this with other customers.

    1. Strive to Excel*

      You need to know why you’re not supposed to contact them. It’s a fair chance that you’re bypassing a security restriction or control, in which case whether or not you are doing what moves the business forwards you may be putting yourself, your company, and your customers at risk.

      Additionally, it’s an unfortunate reality that people pay more attention to failing systems than to successful systems. By contacting the customer directly, you didn’t allow the system to fail – so now your company doesn’t have any reason to fix the problem.

      When you have another deadline coming up, let your manager know. Let the person above your manager know too, if possible. Then let it fail. Your company has shown that’s the only thing they’ll let affect them. So it needs to fail.

      1. Dreading Documents*

        The reason has nothing to do with security. The customers only want to deal with one person at my company. However, the customers are often not sending their documents in a timely manner so you have to chase them. CSR is supposed to request them when we don’t have the documents a fixed number of days before deadline, but that’s not happening. Guess I’ll just have to miss the deadlines going forward when I don’t have documents.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          Then they need to decide which consequences they like less: dealing with more than one person, or missing their deadlines. If they’re putting up a big fuss when you prevented their issues, they’ve earned failing a deadline or two.

    2. RagingADHD*

      Have you directly asked your manager what alternatives you have to letting a million-dollar deadline fail? What do they suggest?

    3. Wednesday Wishing*

      Document this in emails every time-
      “CSR- I am missing these docs and I need them by this date in order to meet the deadline”
      and always copy CSRs manager. Sens a second reminder on the day they are due- then let the deadline get missed. As long as its only your problem people will be willing to let it be only your problem.

      1. Dreading Documents*

        I am already doing that. I’m also adding 2nd request, 3rd request, whatever is appropriate to the specific situation. I’m cc’ing my manager and hers. I will start adding my grand boss.

  39. Anax*

    Apologies, no way to avoid the politics in this one. I’m just… scared and furious.

    So Gavin Newsom just had the head of Turning Point USA on his podcast, and he’s scapegoating trans athletes. Earlier this week, he bumped the mandatory in-office days per week from 2 to 4. Dude is obviously pivoting toward the right and toward business to try to seek the national stage.

    And… look, I didn’t think Newsom was trustworthy. I lost my last job DIRECTLY because he personally pushed RTO policies and my need for a disability-related accommodation was ignored. I burned some serious bridges to try to push for systemic change, and nothing has budged.

    But… I live near enough to the capitol that state work is by far the biggest local employer. My current job, which I love, is federal-adjacent, and if our contract doesn’t get re-signed, I’m losing it in three weeks.

    I’m trans, and I’m mostly housebound – I CAN’T work even a hybrid position.

    So… gosh. I’m so stressed out, you guys. I really wish my mortgage and my health weren’t dependent on the ethics of a small handful of old white guys.

    1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

      I have nothing to add or advice to give, but I can offer a ton of support. I am so sorry you’re going through this, that anyone is going through something like this. It sucks and I can’t believe this is happening (but also I can, given who is in power).

      1. Anax*

        Thanks. It really sucks, and the speed of disruption is… a lot. We’re still hoping this contract will get signed, but… I’m so tired of having to fight all the time just to be allowed in society. COVID really brought to light a nasty eugenicist element in our culture, and the repercussions of that are still very real.

    2. GERDQueen*

      I really feel you. Last year, I delt with terrible team dynamics and a boss who did not have my back. But I stuck it out and worked on an internal transfer because I need to work remotely and HR has been amazing at helping me through intermittent FMLA as a disability accommodation. I work in the private sector, so the stakes are lower, but that feeling of precarity is very hard to live with.

      1. Anax*

        It’s so hard. I’m glad HR has been helpful for you, though! That’s a huge help. Hope things have gotten better for you now.

        The ADA might theoretically offer a lot of protection, but the enforcement is just not there, especially now; if HR isn’t on your side, it’s… much harder. Speaking from experience. EEOC complaint has been pending for 11 months now, and while I was planning to sue privately in superior court… well. It might not be a good time for it.

    3. The Prettiest Curse*

      I’m sorry, and I have nothing to offer you except my virtual support. It might be helpful to look for jobs in county government if remote work is an option there.
      Also, if it cheers you up at all, I once drunkenly heckled Gavin Newsom (back when he was SF mayor) for having stupid hair and he heard me. It was pretty hilarious.

      1. Anax*

        Mostly not an option, unfortunately. I’m digging into my options.

        But honestly? Yeah, that cheers me up quite a bit. I really like that mental image.

    4. Always Tired*

      I have never liked Governor Haircut. I am not at all surprised by his heel-turn. I am so sorry this has happened to you, though. Have you tried applying to the UC system (assuming you work on the west side of Sac)? I can’t say they’re always amazing about accommodations either, but they usually do the minimum, at least, and you’d get state benefits like decent healthcare and a pension plan.

      1. Anax*

        That’s a really good thought; thank you.

        I’ll see what I can dig up, if we don’t get our contract renewed at work. I had a couple of bites at UC Davis when I was last job-hunting – it just took a LONG time, so I’d accepted my current gig by then.

        Even places which are pretty good about accommodations can be… less good, when they hear about a medical need to work completely remote, but… it’s worth a try.

        (Dysautonomia is pretty miserable in this climate; I don’t thermoregulate properly, so I’ll rapidly get heat exhaustion and faint any time it’s above about 72F. So if it’s not winter, I can’t leave my house.)

    5. Warm wishes from Virginia*

      As a state worker in a purple state, I think you can do good, ethical work under a crappy governor, but whether you feel respected and supported depends on the individual agency’s culture (as well as how hostile HR policies are – we also went through RTO nonsense).

      Of course, I’m anxiously waiting to see if that changes – I often find myself mentally playing the game of “who goes fascist” these days. I’m sorry, it’s such a hard time to be working in and around the public sector these days.

      1. Anax*

        Nothing to do with ethics – everything to do with Newsom personally pushing policies which detrimentally affect me. I used to work public sector in a purple state, and it was fine; sometimes transparency and ethical work matters even more in that climate.

        The problem is that I personally cannot take a job which requires RTO, and Newsom isn’t just not backtracking on that policy, he’s making it worse. I did everything in my power to get WFH as a reasonable accommodation last time, after being promised it on hiring, and with a supportive hiring manager. No dice. I got cripplingly sick from being in-office and had to quit before I ended up hospitalized.

        CalHR, the department, and the state regulatory agencies, are backing him that he can claim in-office work as an “essential function”, even when it’s clearly not meeting the ADA definition. That’s statewide, and it means unless I can get a manager and department willing to seriously go to bat for me, I can’t work public sector – and even if I do find a job there, it may well be a matter of time before they’re pressured to force me into the office.

        Not to mention just the general … not-great of being trans, disabled, queer, poly, GNC, and my partners being immigrants. I was really hoping that California would have a bit more protection against whatever is going on federally, but… well.

    6. California nightmare*

      I know how you feel. I’ve been completely wrecked this week. I’ve spent the last year working towards full-time state employment as a student assistant; I’m one class away from meeting the MQs for the entry-level professional position. And now it looks like it’s not a viable option anymore. I can do two days, maybe three, but four is a deal breaker.

      Not only is my whole future turned upside down, but it’s heartbreaking to see how our politicians and our state government (which has a ⅙ target for disability employment) play lip service to DEI and “California values” while actively working against us, overturning the policies that make our employment possible while denying reasonable accommodations.

      I’ve contacted the governor’s office and my state legislators and plan to go to the protest next week. The unions are suing. So I want to be hopeful that something could change in the next few months.

      1. Anax*

        I’m so sorry. Yeah. It’s awful. I’ve known dozens of people who have lost their jobs because of these policies, or who are suffering horrible health consequences as they try to make it work.

        Don’t trust Newsom. There’s a reason the rate of disabled employees in state service has dropped from 14.1% to 8.1% under his watch. There is a systemic culture of disability discrimination, and it’s coming from the top. I don’t say that lightly; I was very involved in things last year.

        I recommend hitting up Bobby Dutta at ACSED. He’s very good and has his finger on the pulse of what’s going on, and a lot of experience with working the system, although he has very limited power to change things. Still, a really good contact to get in touch with.

        I hate saying this though, but I wouldn’t put a lot of hope in things changing. I contacted the governor’s office and my legislators, filed complaints with CRD and SPB and the EEOC, got in touch with CalHR and DOR, did a lot with SEIU, Disability Rights California, and ACSED, was even in the local newspaper. Nothing has budged. Given that … I’m not super hopeful that things will change unless there’s a strong push at the federal level.

        If you want to get into the legal side, relevant precedent is in Ravel v. Hewlett-Packard Enter (2017 E.D. CA) 228 F. Supp. 3d 1086, and the cases it cites. Circuit court precedent is on our side and has held that telework can be a reasonable accommodation (including in cases where the disability is related to commuting rather than the office environment) since the NINETIES… But getting anyone to care is hard, and CalHR/CRD/SPB are very misinformed on their legal obligations and the existing legal precedent. (I cannot count how many times I’ve been told that commute-related issues don’t count, even though they DEFINITELY DO per Ninth Circuit precedent.)

        Sorry. That’s all very depressing. I hope you’re able to make things work where I couldn’t.

        1. California nightmare*

          I did contact ACSED through the website and their Facebook group but haven’t heard anything back yet.

    7. Wfh4vr*

      I’m so sorry. The country is burning down and I have no advice, but I’m on your side.

    8. RemoteWorks*

      My sympathies. I, too, have to be 100% remote for medical reasons and I’m dreading my next job search. Hybrid has been normal here at most companies for many decades and needing to be fully remote just wasn’t a big deal pre-pandemic (which is to say most places were totally fine with it without even bothering to go through a formal accommodations process, and it was rare to have a place say no can do when I brought it up) but I know it’s going to be different now and so, so hard to navigate.

      No practical advice, unfortunately. Just a it sucks and I’m sorry.

  40. Hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

    Hi y’all!

    Is it bad to quit two jobs in a row without something lined up? Will it look bad to employers?

    Job 1: I was moved to a different team than I was hired for, which didn’t work out. I was remote from most of my team, struggled to learn in that setup, and was put on a PIP right after a good performance review. Management was difficult, and turnover was high company-wide. My mental health also really suffered, and I left after unexpectedly making it to phase 2 of my PIP, before being fired.

    Current Job: It’s more administrative than I expected, and I’ve struggled with some of it. My boss has been spreading false claims about me to the other clerk (this is also something I’ve seen her do with others, involve them in her lies, however small they are). This environment is also negative in general in regards to her (she has to get some kind of dig or comment or insult in about almost everyone if they make any kind of a mistake), though several coworkers have been supportive. While my mental health thankfully isn’t as bad as in my last job, thanks to the support and my liking all my other coworkers, I also don’t exactly enjoy going to work. My co-clerk also said something about our boss saying we had one clerk before covid (but also we had a receptionist). I don’t know if she’s trying to go back down to just one, but this job is a lot for one person. When I was hired I was told they needed tow people just for phones, and that’s something the last two clerks I worked with were told. We are moving in a couple months tho so things might be different. But if my boss had to pick one, I don’t think it would be me (new clerk has a ton of admin experience).

    It took me about four months to find my current job because I was selective. I of course wouldn’t tell employers the full story—just that I want a more project-based role. But both times, management has been a major factor in leaving. I will say, not having to fit interviews around PTO was a major relief, especially as I made it to the second round.

    I know I’m fortunate to even consider quitting without another job, but I don’t want to be fired. I know being fired means severance, but I don’t know if I could mentally handle that and I also would struggle to explain that to future employers.

    I will probably wait to see if my position is being eliminated or get some kind of answer, but I also can’t help but consider just leaving. Had I not done that with my last job, it would be different.

    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      Yes it will look bad, I would try to come up with a more specific reason why I was leaving. Waiting for a physical move at your current job sounds like the perfect reason. “Moved me to a different team” could be a great reason for your first job

      Your reason for leaving can’t be something most people deal with at some point. “Too much admin work” is something I would not mention. Most people do some admin work now, as admin roles have been gutted and most paperwork automated. So complaining about it seems a tad out of touch, the director you’re interviewing with may think “hey I do admin work!”

      I also wouldn’t mention trouble learning remotely unless I were sure the job was never going to have WFH

      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        I guess I’d mention the admin work because it’s not the TYPE of work I want to be doing for a majority of my day. I don’t mind doing it at all, I just thought I’d be getting more projects when I was interviewing.

        but yes that is the reason I gave in my last job search, that they moved me to a new team that was very different than the one I was hired for – and I didn’t have a choice or say in said move. but I won’t mention having trouble with exclusively remote work. I did classes in grad school that were totally online and that was fine, so I think it was the (lack of) training that was the problem.

        anyway, thank you for the response. looks like I’m staying put for now!

        1. Saturday*

          Yeah, I don’t think it would look out of touch to say that you’re looking for a position where you can do more X work rather than doing admin work the majority of the time. I don’t think anyone would take that to mean you don’t expect to do ANY admin work.

          1. Saturday*

            I don’t have any advice about the bigger question of when to leave because I tend to stay in jobs way too long because I’m too much of a coward to leave… so I can’t be helpful there, but best wishes on finding a better match!

          2. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

            yes thank you, that is exactly the vibe I am going for! I don’t expect to not do any admin work, and I don’t mind doing it. I just don’t want it to be the bulk of what I do every single day.

            and thank you for the good vibes!

    2. A*

      At nearly any other time I would probably say it’s fine to have two short stints on a resume and suggest you quit and throw yourself into job searching again.

      At this specific point in time, unless your job is causing severe mental or physical health impacts, keep it while you job search.

      1. hypoglycemic rage (she/her)*

        I mean, not gonna lie, my mental health is being impacted. BUT unlike with my last job (where I was for about a year and a half total), I am at the very least not crying at my desk multiple times a week, so there is that. so it’s definitely not “severe” and I have other coworkers who I love and understand (on some level) and sympathize.

        however, given (gestures)….. the world, it would probably be wise to keep this job while I can. if my role somehow gets eliminated, that would be totally different. but for now, I should do what I can to stay.

  41. Goes On Anon*

    Being extra anonymous just in case. I took the morning off for an “appointment.” I went to an interview. I think it went well, although it was a bit awkward to explain why I’m leaving this job so soon. I changed clothes in a coffee shop. I came to work right when I said I would. The perfect crime.

    I said the job was a bad fit, because based on the work I’ve been given and the questions I’ve been asked, they need someone with a background in Birds, and my experience is only in Whales. That’s a reasonable answer, right?

  42. Elle*

    I have a Linda and it sucks. We document everything and her manager has addresses her complaints in their weekly meetings. She acknowledges her issues but doesn’t change her ways. She’s missed out on two promotions because of her attitude and actions (also a frequent HR visitor). We’ve been blunt about why she hasn’t gotten promoted. She’s even been told our office doesn’t seem to be the right place for her. What is keeping her employed is that she does her job.

  43. Allornone*

    What’s the temperature in an office supposed to be?
    I live in Miami, FL (relevant because we love our air-conditioning, and central air is very common). I recently started a new job and tend to start working earlier than everyone here, so after about a month, they gave me keys so I could open up the office. When I come in, I’m to turn off the alarm and set the thermostat. My boss said to “just turn it down a few degrees.” The thing is, I really don’t have a good sense of temperature. I’ve lived with people who loved the heat and others who have loved it super cold, so I really can just adjust to anything. When I come in, the thermostat is set on 76 (high enough this time of a year (for now- give it a week) to keep it from turning on to an empty building every night). I’ve been turning it to 72. Is this good practice?

    1. Admin of Sys*

      72-74 is what I consider correct – It’s warmer than my preference, but I like it on the cooler side. I know folks who swear anything under 75 is freezing. 72 / 73 is right at the spot where most everyone can live with it, even if no one is really happy – the mark of a true compromise.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Probably reasonable. But what’s the dress code like? If people are in shorts, t-shirts, and sundresses, 72 might be too cold.

      1. JustaTech*

        Yes, if everyone is shivering, wearing obviously outdoor clothing (gloves, parkas), or complaining a LOT, then try setting to 73 or 74. But if everyone is comfortable then 72 seems reasonable.

        (Some of the stuff about “office temperatures” were set back when all the guys wore suits and were more likely to be too hot.)

      2. Allornone*

        The dress code is pretty casual. We’re a non-profit that provides music education, and my CEO and COO are musicians (COO has won Grammys!) and look as such. Jeans are pretty normal, though I haven’t seen shorts yet (we’ll see what summer brings). I personally dress business casual, though I might throw in a pair of jeans or a spaghetti-strap shirt (which does make me cold) into the mix and fit in. Maybe I’ll put it at 74.

    3. Lemon*

      First: There is no temperature everyone will be happy with. I’ve read studies that say 74º is peak for productivity, but there are plenty of run-hot people for which that will be miserable. I’m a run-cold and every office I’ve ever worked in has been pure misery. Like, blue fingernails even with a space heater pointed at my face misery.

      I think 72º is a good compromise temperature, even though it’s personally much too cold for me (78º is where it’s at, baby!).

    4. Antilles*

      For what it’s worth, OSHA suggests (*not* a regulation/requirement just a suggestion) between 68 and 76 degrees F. My experience is that around 72 is most common.

    6. there is no one right answer*

      I used to be in charge of running down complaints about the temperature in the buildings in our campus and it was common to visit an office where Jack was wearing a winter coat, gloves, and running a space heater under his desk … sitting next to Jill, who wore shorts and a light blouse in front a desk fan.

    7. Mockingjay*

      Have there been any complaints about or requests to change the temp?
      No? Congrats, you found the elusive Holy Grail Cup of Temps – for this particular office, anyway. (Sorry, watched Monty Python last week.)

      No one temp will suit all. Most of us manage anyway, with the ubiquitous office sweater. (You know, the shabby, shapeless mass draped over the chair that doubles as a claiming device.)

      1. Nightengale*

        If only my sweater, turtleneck, long wool skirt and knee socks were enough to keep my nose, ears and fingers warm at work.

    9. Temperature*

      FWIW, every lease I’ve ever had required you to keep the thermostat between 68-72. 72 is on the warm side of what I can tolerate without feeling sick. However, I have worked in offices that kept it at 74-76 before. 76 is high enough that I almost certainly will be sick from the heat if I stay in the space all day. If they set it to 76 overnight and tell you to turn it down, then presumably you should turn it down. 72 is the highest I would consider reasonable in those circumstances.

  44. Valerie Loves Me*

    It’s possible that my boss might move to my neighborhood. I don’t dislike my boss, but I also don’t want them to live in my neighborhood! Any pointers I should keep in mind should this happen?

    1. RagingADHD*

      How big is your neighborhood? Are they moving onto your street, or just within a 2 – 3
      mile radius?

    2. Hlao-roo*

      There have been a few letters about this in the past that might have good advice:

      “my boss is my new next-door neighbor” from March 12, 2019 (and update on December 9, 2019)

      Letter #2 on “should I try to get my HR rep fired, new boss lives on my street, and more” from March 9, 2021 (and update on December 15, 2021).

      I’ll link to the letters in a follow-up comment.

    3. Valerie Loves Me*

      Thank you! It’s not a big neighborhood… 3/4 streets big. They could easily move across the street or around the corner.

      1. Isabel Archer*

        I think you’re missing an antidote to your anxiety: Are any of your immediate neighbors selling? Your boss can’t move in across the street if that house isn’t for sale. Zillow is your friend here.

    4. The Pet from the Resume*

      Never notice they move there?

      I don’t know any of my neighbors; I don’t speak to my neighbors. Obviously it would have no impact on me.

      It might be different if you’re super friendly and there are block parties and daily walks where you chat with people.

  45. Commuter*

    How much of a raise do you need to move on from one job to another? Do you think in these terms? My partner and I were discussing it and our needed increase was drastically different, so I’m wondering what others think.

    1. Alex*

      I think it is highly dependent on how much you like your job! I really like my job and I would need something very substantial to switch. But I would have taken this job for the same pay from my other job, because I wasn’t happy there. Fortunately for me it was a pretty good raise anyway!

    2. techie*

      For me it depends on:

      1) Total comp (including bonus and benefits) of current job vs new job
      2) How happy I am in current job, generally
      3) How appealing the ROLE at new job is
      4) How appealing the COMPANY at new job is

      I work in B2B SaaS marketing, currently in a role that I like, but the industry and the company itself I feel pretty lukewarm about. So to move on, I’d either need to be getting a decent comp increase (at least 5-10%) or I’d make more of a lateral move if I felt more excitement around the company/industry.

    3. Dinwar*

      I took a pay cut for an internal transfer once. Ended up in my favor–the reduction in cost of living more than made up for the reduction in the paycheck!

      There’s also the question of which job I’m transferring to. I like my job. If the job was similar, it probably wouldn’t require a huge pay increase. If it was a job that wasn’t as good–easy to do in my field–I’d need to be paid a LOT more. We’re talking adding a zero to my paycheck minimum, possibly two (jail time for other people’s screwups is a real possibility in my job). And frankly the odds are any job I take would be a less-good job; I’ve looked.

    4. Jiffy #6*

      I just took a higher title, slightly lower paying job to move to a new city. I also took a pay cut when I changed the industry I worked in. And for another job, I would have taken the same pay (even a little less) to leave a truly toxic environment (though, I ended up getting around 10K more, so it was a very easy decision)

      So, I think it’s a YMMV situation.

    5. WellRed*

      All other things like benefits and commute being similar probably 10%, which is barely more than 5k for me.

    6. Board Member*

      It would have to be a lot for me if money was the main reason for the switch, because I’ve often been a bit surprised by the actual take-home pay from position to position – I mean, I shouldn’t be, but so often it seems like there’s little differences here or there whether that’s insurance, different covered medications within that, commuter benefits, whatever. So I wouldn’t jump for something like $5K because sometimes that just gets eaten up in ways I didn’t anticipate (a prior job had a paid parking lot, for example, and no easy transit alternatives – another one had an on-site cafeteria that cost money and a really inconvenient fridge system, so I ended up buying more lunches than I had – another one had a great 401K match that I wanted to get so I ended up having to lock up a lot of my paycheck to attain that, and it wasn’t vested so when I was laid off the next year I only got “my” money back).

    7. Laura*

      It would take a BIG raise and an improved commute (or at least equivalent). I like my job, I like my coworkers, I have supportive management that is very happy with me and the work itself is interesting. My only real complaint is that I spend ~2 hours a day commuting but there are some company benefits that make it more tolerable. I would need a large incentive to jump to a new team/manager and risk ending up in a situation where I was unhappy.

    8. Wordybird*

      I currently make enough to pay all of our bills + have a small amount for savings/fun. My husband’s job is hourly and seasonal so we don’t rely on his income to cover anything essential.

      If those circumstances remained the same, I would, at minimum, need a job that pays at least what I make now but I would be unlikely to leave for anything that wasn’t at least $10K more than what I make now. I could, however, be persuaded to consider a job making about the same that I make now if the job either completely covered their employees’ & their employees’ dependents insurance (I pay over $500/month now for insurance) OR if they worked a 4-day workweek.

      If those circumstances changed and my husband had a long-term salaried position, I would consider jobs making $10K less than what I make now if it was a “dream” position or for a cause that I really cared about.

    9. Bast*

      For me personally, it depends on a lot more than just the money. Job stability is an important one, as well as the company environment. I will never go back to a bust your butt, super late hours, calls at all hours, yelling bosses type of job again; I don’t care what it pays. I also will not work somewhere that expects me to frequently stay late or give up my weekends. I will gladly sacrifice some pay for that, because I have learned my mental health and ability to disconnect is more important. Assuming the job is a similar, decent environment with similar or slightly better benefits, I’d say it would take about 15k-20k to get me to consider it. I like my current job.

      1. Bast*

        All other things considered, commute is also a factor. My commute is currently around 45 minutes. If by some miracle I found something that was only 15 minutes away, that would also carry some serious weight, although I live in a nowhere zone, so this is unlikely to happen.

    10. Lissa Landon*

      I took a small decrease to come to my current job and haven’t ever regretted it. That said, I was returning to a previous workplace, and I think the salary I got was higher than it would have been if I stayed and just promoted into the job rather than leaving and coming back.

      I withdrew from a recent job process because even with a much higher salary, the cost of living and housing was still way out of reach.

      So, for me, I would need: a job I really wanted, a salary that would give me probably at least a 5% raise AFTER taking the cost of living into account, and a commute of 30 minutes or less.

    11. Annony*

      I don’t really think in those terms. If I could get a job in my desired city, I would be willing to accept a pay cut. But I am “highly compensated” so even with a pay cut I would be making very good money.

  46. Lumos*

    Is it ever appropriate to ask for a raise not because you’ve gone above and beyond but because you’re woefully underpaid? I keep my department running pretty much single handedly and have always gone above so I can’t point to an exact thing that’s changed, but raises have not kept up with market and external hires start with a hiring salary higher than I make after having been here over 3 years. And the difference is significant, they’re making more than 10% over what I do.

    1. techie*

      Yes, if new hires that are at the same level as you doing the same type of work as you are being hired for 10% more, you definitely can take it up with your manager. The only caveat would be making sure that you are at least performing at expectations.

    2. Busy Middle Manager*

      Your comment says you have not gone above and beyond then that you have always “gone above.”

      If you keep the department running, you can surely find something to include in a raise request. Maybe ask boss about it to get you up to market rate, but if you have an HR department/multiple layers, they’ll most likely want to keep up the charade of it being a performance-based raise (a la typical corporate America) so make some bullet points about accomplishments or “new duties,” even if its stuff you already do

      1. Lumos*

        My normal is above. I was sort of thrown into the fire with this role, covered for my manager after only having been there two months when she was suddenly out. I do literally all of the same things my manager does and that’s the direction we were given. My normal is more than I was initially told about the role but three years in I’m doing pretty much everything and that’s what’s expected of me. I can’t exactly point to that because that’s just what my role has been for years now and not exactly a compelling argument for HR.

        1. Busy Middle Manager*

          Can you come up with some sort of faux achievement even if it’s nothing earth-shattering. I mean, you can’t just mindlessly be processing paperwork all day. I’m sure there is something there.

          Any customers you built relationships with, anything you upsold, and reports you automated, are you training new people, covering shifts when others are out, helping launch new products. There’s gotta be something

          Also this response you left is very defeatist. If you have this attitude with a stranger online who wants you to get a raise…..be more confident when you go to management! This is not their person money. No reason to be this meek. The ball has already been in their court since new hires make so much more.

        2. Hyaline*

          What does your actual job description say? If there are significant upgrades between what you’re actually doing vs what the description says, it might help make your case. You might be able to leverage differences in what you were hired to do (at that rate) and what you’re ACTUALLY doing (and the difference in pay that comes with all the extra skill, expertise, and labor you provide).

          Just because it’s your “normal” doesn’t mean you’re not going “above and beyond” what the scope and pay of the job is on paper, and the employer should be interested in compensating (and potentially titling) you fairly. It can help them, too–if you were hit by a bus tomorrow, they’d want to hire to replace what you DO not what your possibly outdated job description says.

    3. Hiring Manager*

      If raises at your employer are not keeping up with the market, and external hires are starting at a salary higher than yours, why aren’t you applying for jobs at employers that pay more?

      It would totally appropriate to go to your boss and say that you want a ten per cent raise because your value to the organization is greater than your current salary. But it might be easier to get a ten per cent pay increase by changing jobs. Good luck!

      1. Lumos*

        I am, I have been the second choice candidate three times now. Believe me, I have been searching for over a year.

    4. RagingADHD*

      Yes, pay equity amd cost of living are important and worth bringing up for their own sake.

    5. Board Member*

      It sounds like your mindset is a bit off here – based on what you’re saying you should absolutely be able to go to your boss and make a strong case that your value to the company is such that you deserve a much higher salary. And you can ask for a salary review for equity (but be aware that sometimes they do this for everybody and that makes them reluctant to give you a big jump – they just do like 5% across the board for certain groups of workers or whatever. Hopefully that doesn’t happen to you).

    6. Goddess47*

      Depending on how you want to approach it, start by asking for the raise, pointing out the differences between you and new hires.

      If you’re told ‘no’ then you could tell your supervisor that it is not illegal to discuss pay among coworkers and that you may exercise that right.

      Also, depending on your gender and the gender of the new employees, you might be able to point out that there is a difference in pay based on gender that HR should address.

      If that fails, your only option is to look for a new job. Sorry.

  47. Aurion*

    Is there such a thing as “LinkedIn influencers”?

    A friend of mine coined the term during her job hunt, whereby she reported that there are a lot of people on LinkedIn with deeply bad/gimmicky takes and yet have a lot of engagement with their posts. Do they get anything out of that engagement? As far as I know LinkedIn doesn’t pay people like Youtube/Tiktok/etc for driving high engagement, so…what do these people get out of it?

    Maybe they do genuinely believe their takes and the engagement is just incidental, but the tone of some of those posts do make me think they are trying to get eyeballs for…whatever reason or benefit.

    2. Antilles*

      I assume it’s because they’re selling something else. They aren’t getting paid per view like YouTube does, but instead they’re getting the traffic for their own purposes.
      So like they have a high-engagement takes on how important it is for your resume to be optimized to stand out to AI resume review services and hey what a coincidence, I happen to know an expert who solves that exact problem…

    3. Anon for this*

      I‘ve called myself that before, and it’s had a huge impact on my standing in my professional community (HE sector). I don’t make any money off it though – but if I were to start a business instead of being an employee I’d use this to advertise my services.
      People with actual viral „hot takes“ I have seen were running coaching businesses, selling consultations with their companies for exorbitant prices.
      I don’t have hot takes, just useful content for the people in my profession. And through carefully selecting who I follow it put me on the map in certain countries and circles.

    4. NancyDrew*

      Yes, of course there’s such a thing as LI influencers. A colleague of mine (she’s a consultant for us) gets paid by LI for her posts. She has an annual contract that lists how many posts per week she should make, etc.

      Obviously there are wannabe influencers too, who do NOT get paid by LI. But the LI influencer network is legit.

  48. puzzled*

    I have a medical issue that requires me to inject a med once a week. I do so Friday evenings. Usually, I have no or minor side effects that pass before I need to return to work on Monday. But sometimes/say 25% of the time, the SEs are bad, and I can’t work on Monday or even Tuesday. I cannot predict when or if I will have problems. I have plenty of sick leave, but our HR tends to get snifty if most of your sick leave usage abuts a weekend. I haven’t talked about my issues at work, but I wonder if it makes sense to mention the issues…

    1. Goddess47*

      Since it’s HR and, assumedly your immediate supervisor does not care, then I’d wait for them to ask but to be prepared with the ‘ongoing medical issue that needs no other accommodations’ response.

      If they get ‘snifty’ (nice word!) then point out that your supervisor has no problems with your work output. Although at that point you may want to loop in your supervisor to the same ‘ongoing but mostly managed medical issue’ so they know to back you up.

      Good luck!

    2. Can't Sit Still*

      If you are in the US, this is what intermittent FMLA is for. This stops, or should stop, HR or anyone else getting annoyed and changes the perception from “always out on Monday” to “excused medical absence.” It shouldn’t make a difference, but it does.

      If your company is too small for FMLA to apply, then put some thought into who would be the best person to inform, whoever will be helpful and not cause drama over it.

    3. EMP*

      If you think HR is getting sniffy, I’d say something like “I manage a recurring medical issue which involves treatment every Friday; sometimes because of this I need to take time off on Monday. I understand why you’ve asked me about the pattern and I hope this clears it up.”

    4. Hyaline*

      If you’re comfortable sharing something , I think matter of factly sharing the basics of the situation with your manager and/or HR could head off any scrutiny about the weekend-abutting time off. They don’t need to know details, but maybe just:

      “I take a once-weekly medication that occasionally has unpredictable side effects [no further details need to be shared IMO]. I take on Friday to minimize potential impact on work [important to point out IMO that you’re ALREADY managing this situation with as much respect for work as you can], but once in a while this means Monday or Tuesday I’m still under the weather. Thanks for understanding! [Or another “this is not negotiable” but “pleasant” conversation ender]”

    6. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

      Eye roll. “Days abutting the weekend” are literally 40% of the workweek. By random chance, people will often be out on those days. If you have the time off, HR can stuff it.

      1. allathian*

        That’s true. But even in my org people who often call in sick on a Monday/first workday after a holiday, will get questioned on these because the assumption is that they’re nursing a hangover. I’m in Finland, and here employers have a duty of care to their employees and mandatory rehab for alcohol or drug addiction is a statutory condition of employment. The vast majority of “problem users” of alcohol are employed. In a population of 5.6 million, of whom 3 million are either employed, full-time students, or actively looking for work (rather than children too young to work, retired, or disabled enough to be unable to work), it’s been estimated that about 250k consume enough alcohol for it to have a detrimental effect on their ability to work. That’s nearly 10% of the working population! And that’s not counting recreational drug users.

        So yes, my employer would ask some questions if I suddenly started to call in sick every Monday.

  49. Board Member*

    I did a training on discrimination this week and the trainer was clear that age discrimination is only illegal against people over 40. Is there a reason it’s totally legal to refuse to promote a young person solely because of their age, or pay them less or refuse to hire them? Is this just one of those “old people make the rules” things?

    1. Strive to Excel*

      It’s more that rules are usually made to combat immediate problems. When the age discrimination laws were being made it was to prevent people from being pushed out of the workforce before they had the funds and ability to retire, so the rules were made to protect people over 40.

      1. Board Member*

        Yet the other categories they went out of their way to make broader – like, it’s not like women are a protected class, discrimination based on sex is illegal, even though I’m not sure they were super worried about men not being hired or promoted at the time. Ditto religion and race. Yet this one carves out only same ages.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          I don’t know! I’d guess they assumed that either a) it’s unlikely to happen or b) it would be incredibly hard to sort out the “you’re too young” claims from the “you don’t have enough experience” claims. But you’d have to ask the EEOC for certain.

    2. Jiffy #6*

      When applying for positions, older candidates are sometimes passed over for younger ones in a belief that they might be more energetic or creative or stay with the company longer.

      I can’t speak to why 40 is the determining age. But, I would imagine the reason a young person may not get promoted or might receive less pay or not get hired is because they lack the professional experience the company is looking for.

      While that may be considered a justification for discriminating against younger people… I offer up myself as an example. I haven’t put my age or college dates on a resume in years. If I wanted to make myself younger, it’s not hard to do. I could limit the number of jobs I include to make myself seem younger. But, it would be harder to finagle having more experience if one doesn’t have it.

      1. Irish Teacher.*

        To be fair, I don’t think it’s likely to be at all unusual for a young person to be passed over for promotion just because they “don’t have the right gravitas” or “you have to pay your dues” or “our other employees wouldn’t like having to take orders from somebody half their age” or because “young people are so irresponsible. I wouldn’t trust a 25 year old kid with this role” or even “kids these days are so sensitive. They’d probably need a safe space before they could take a tough decision.”

        I agree that it would be difficult to tell whether it was because of lacking the professional experience or for a more discriminatory reason but I don’t think it’s unusual for employers to have prejudices against young people.

        1. Board Member*

          Yeah what’s weird to me is apparently that would be totally legal to do. Unless I misunderstand the situation.

    3. Irish Teacher.*

      I’m not American and certainly no expert on this, but I am guessing it’s because there can sometimes perhaps be valid reasons to discriminate against younger people on grounds of age. Like obviously, under 18s often have different working rules than adults and in Ireland, there are different minimum wages for under 18s, 18 year olds and 19 year old than for adults 20+, both on the assumption that people under 20 often don’t need their income to live on, are usually living at home, etc, so they don’t have the same need for a minimum wage meant to cover somebody’s living expenses and because they aren’t usually very experienced. At most, a 19 year old can have been working full-time for three years. And of course, in both Ireland and the US, you have to be 35 to be president, presumably both because you want somebody experienced and somebody who has some…standing. Somebody people look up to.

      And it would be hard to determine whether a young person was passed over specifically for their age or for having less work or life experience which…might overlap with being young but is a more valid reason for not employing or promoting somebody.

      1. Board Member*

        Wow, I’d be super annoyed if they were able to create a special lower wage here for younger people, which I didn’t *think* was a thing (?) in the US. I think there is one for children under 14, because I used to earn it when I first started out, but I’d be immediately suspicious the people who really wanted to underpay would be our military (you can enroll, or be drafted, at 18). Also, how unfair for young people with poor family support or who are kicked out at a young age. Although I guess technically there’s nothing illegal about doing so based on my understanding of the law.

        1. Board Member*

          I had to do more research on this, apparently there IS a special youth minimum wage and it’s $4.25/hr but only for the first 90 calendar days of employment and only when the employee is under 20. That’s really brutal, IMO. I’m so glad none of my jobs as a teenager did that to me. And if the youth changes jobs, the new job also gets to pay them that for the first three months at the new job :(

    4. Wellie*

      I’m guessing it’s bc it’s a one way problem. I have seen young people get opportunities over middle aged people just bc they were young. I have only seen middle aged people get opportunities over young people bc they were experienced.

      1. Board Member*

        Really? I’ve never seen “younger” but I’ve seen “cheaper” as the reason. Then again I don’t work in tech or an industry that would be particularly pro-youth. And FWIW I’m 40 myself, so I don’t actually have a dog in this fight.

    5. Roland*

      My guess is that it’s because “less experience” is actually a pretty valid reason in many situations and it would be too difficult to separate “less experience” and “younger” cleanly. Just s guess.

      I don’t think it’s “old people make the rules”. White men also make the rules after all and it’s only unbalanced around the age issue.

      1. Board Member*

        I did think this at first, but then I remembered “more experience” is also generally “more expensive” so in both cases it seems like there’s two sides of the coin – you can still get rid of all the most expensive people as long as you can’t make a bright line to JUST the oldest, right?

        And I would guess women and other groups were better positioned to advocate for themselves than young people are. But that might be changing since there are several youth advocates I can think of in the current generation.

    6. Let’s Make Things Better*

      It is most certainly not one of those “old people make the rules” things. Ageism is real and very harmful. You might consider looking at research on the shockingly high number of older workers who are targeted for layoffs and firings and otherwise forced out of the workforce and into early retirement because of ageism. The great majority experience irrecoverable financial damage. Taking a huge financial hit like that in one’s fifties or sixties affects quality of post-retirement life in very painful ways, like the ability to afford basics such as housing, medical care and medication because people end up living off less than they’d planned to have and for a longer period of time. My sense from your comments is that you’re coming from a good place and that your motivation is about looking out for young people and that’s admirable. I also want to respectfully encourage you to reflect on what you took away from the training you attended and whether there is an opportunity for you to learn and grow in your thinking about ageism. In wording your question – is this an “old people” make the rules thing – you have used language that is othering and offensive. That kind of language itself perpetuates ageism. Would you use pejorative language like that to describe a person’s race, gender or religion, and in a public forum like this? You seem like someone who is trying hard to be an ally and so I encourage you to do some thinking about this. Ageism is really the last acceptable “-ism” in the workplace; those workers deserve your support and respect too. We all benefit from a workplace that is fair and just. It’s up to us to make it so, and that includes reflecting on and addressing our own unconscious bias.

  50. Correct Battery Horse Staple*

    I have a boss who’s a bit of a missing stair. Many people in our office feel like she calls them out for doing the wrong thing, when really they’ve been working without direction for years, or working under different assumptions or information. Often she doesn’t have the whole picture or understanding of a situation, and will send out directives on this (that she has to walk back later). This grates on me as I try to double check dotted i’s and crossed t’s. I also feel that she is often unnecessarily combative when bringing up policy changes or clarifications.

    I just got a request for a stay interview with HR and was wondering if anyone else had been in this situation and how you handled it. I don’t think there’s anything I could say that would result in consequences to her above a concerned meeting – she has a valuable knowledge base and skill set that are important for us. There are more issues than mentioned above, but she also has redeeming qualities.

    The questions they prepped me with involved general experience/satisfaction, relationship with boss/team, and personal growth.

  51. Working under my down comforter*

    The new head of the Department of Education has a building named for her at my alma mater. I don’t know if she’s a major donor but should I express my concerns to my university about this?

    2. Goddess47*

      It’s not clear if the alma mater and your current employer are the same. If they are, then I would think someone would have asked about the name… “Are you the Mary Smith the building is named after?” That would have been an off-line discussion at the executive level.

      If it’s not the same university, then, well, ‘is it important’ is the question I would have for you. Maybe your university hired her in hopes of soliciting future donations (I’m hoping she is at least marginally qualified for the position she was hired for.)

      The bottom line is ‘can she do the job?’ and not anything else.

    3. RagingADHD*

      If it will make you feel better, you can. But it is unlikely to have any impact. Donations of that scale come with binding commitments, and are more likely to be paid out over time, or through a bequest or life insurance, than to be paid in cash up front.

      If you want to amplify the message, you might reach out to different campus groups and see whether any of them are planning a protest or petition.

    4. Yes And*

      It’s funny, just this morning I had a conversation with my boss about my concerns about the optics of self-dealing with a candidate for a leadership position. His response was basically, “We already thought about that and we decided we don’t care, so drop it.”

      As for your situation, here are my questions: What exactly are your concerns? How will they impact your work or people’s perceptions of you? What outcome would you want out of expressing your concerns, given that this person has already been hired and (it seems) started? If you have specific answers to those questions, you might go to your university about this. If not, I wouldn’t.

      1. Yes And*

        I read the other comments on this thread and I take back everything I said. I thought you were referring to your university’s Department of Education, not the federal Department of Education. I don’t think what I wrote is at all relevant to your situation. My apologies.

        1. Grenelda Thurber*

          I assumed they were talking about the Department of Energy. I worked for one of their contractors back in the day, and that (DoE) is what we called it.

    5. Jenn*

      Considering that part of her job is to try and shut down the Departmrnt of Education (which only Congress can do despite what certain people want you to believe) those are terrible optics and should probably be brought to someone’s attention. Or maybe a call to reporter is needed…

    7. Hyaline*

      I don’t want to be snarky here, but I’m guessing they’re already aware. And by that I mean that the PR people are already on this and are probably investigating every legal avenue they might take and what the repercussions could be of changing the name, leaving the name, renaming the building after someone else, etc. I’d wait until there’s some movement or statement in one way or another and then lend your support or dissent.

  52. Put the Blame on Edamame*

    In incredibly low stakes regrets: I wish that I hadn’t WFH today because I missed out on both a free lunch (they even had decent veggie options) and a colleague showing up to the office in a short see-through dress. Not see-through like a thin fabric that if caught by the light it was revealing, I mean a sheer mesh outfit. I didn’t want to get an eyeful of her but I have heard the chattering and wish I was there for the raised eyebrows!

    1. Apex Mountain*

      it might be better that you missed it – you don’t want to get caught up in unkind gossip

      1. Live and let live*

        Agreed. This type of catty sniping is what makes people hate RTO (return to office). The folks at work should let her live her life, it’s not affecting them.

    4. Shipbuilding Techniques*

      What is up with all the see-through fashion right now! I thought it was limited to awards shows, but now at work too???! 100% also would have been sorry to miss this surprising choice.

  53. Annie Blue*

    Weird (but happy) thing happened…I signed off on the approval to start the search for my replacement…because I’m retiring! It was a bit odd but also very liberating. I’ve been in this industry for decades…so many changes have happened and more to come…it’s definitely time to go.

    4. Anon soon to join you*

      Congratulations! I’ll be giving my retirement notice soon, it’s going to likely be quite a shock as I’m doing early retirement. So looking forward to it though. Enjoy – you’ve earned it!

    6. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      My retirement years have been the best of my life.
      Welcome to the club!

  54. Meow*

    So I worked in, say, the teapot manufacturing industry doing logistics for 7 years. That company was horribly toxic and disfunctional, but even so, I suspected I just wasn’t very good at logistics, despite it being my area of expertise. There were too many projects with unclear goals and I had trouble keeping everything organized. Apart from that, it was a completely thankless job – no one really understood what I did or why it was important.

    A couple years ago I got a job in tea pot manufacturing instead, and it has been a much better fit. Unfortunately, a salesperson at the biggest tea pot supplier in town mentioned to another manager here that I used to be in logistics. Management then assigned me to a logistics related project, excited that someone was already an expert in this area. During my performance review at the end of last year, my manager asked me if I’d consider doing logistics for this group. I said I would be willing to help here and there and would be more than willing to help anyone else on the team if they needed help doing logistics, but I was burnt out and also didnt want to get pigeon-holed doing nothing but logistics. He assured me that wouldn’t happen.

    Then I came back from my maternity leave and pretty much all my assigned projects are logistics now, even ones other coworkers were leading before. I’m struggling hard to get these projects completed just as before, and I’m afraid it’s starting to reflect poorly on me. Do I go back and tell my manager, “hey, the real reason I don’t do logistics anymore is because I frankly just suck at it?” I’m afraid that would look bad, since they already assigned me to all these stupid logistics projects, I wouldn’t have anything to do if I said I didn’t want to do any of them. But it’s partially my fault for not being clear that I didn’t want to do it anymore.

    1. Busy Middle Manager*

      I am curious about this situation, but was wondering first, what is the difference between your existing “manufacturing” tasks and logistics one. Logistics covers so many items, I don’t want to guess.

      1. Meow*

        I am just using these as examples, but the difference is like, manufacturing would be like designing and building teapots, while “logistics” would be like configuring software to manage teapot inventory, monitor the manufacturing equipment to make sure they are maintained and replaced regularly, stuff like that.

    2. Response Junkie*

      Depends on your relationship with your boss, but I’d consider a conversation around something like “Hey boss – I’ve noticed that a lot/most/all of my projects are now logistics. I’m happy to lend a hand but one of the reasons that I was so excited for this manufacturing role was because logistics weren’t a good fit for my skillset. I’d hate to see projects suffer because I’m better at manufacturing than logistics, but would love to consult or be a sounding board for other people to lead these projects since I’m at least familiar with the area.”

  55. Turingtested*

    Just a weird circumstance at work.

    one of my younger coworkers kept calling a customer of ours “Dahmer” as in Jeffrey. I basically said that’s no way to talk about customers whatever you feel. Then he showed me “Dahmer’s” professional picture. Same glasses, hairstyle, vintage clothing. Dude is leaning into looking like Dahmer!

    Never have I gone so fast from “Quit being unprofessional” to “Oh my, don’t you ever be alone with this person! But seriously stop calling him Dahmer.”

    Why oh why must people do things like this?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Dahmer died more than 30 years ago, and I don’t watch crime documentaries.

      If you showed me a picture of Dahmer, I probably wouldn’t recognize him. For all you know, your client wouldn’t recognized Dahmer either. Or might have seen a picture of him decades ago and just remembered the vintage look and nothing else.

      1. Turingtested*

        That’s a good point that I hadn’t considered. At least I stuck with the message of don’t call customers serial killers.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I DO watch crime documentaries – a lot of them – and I wouldn’t recognize Dahmer to pick him out of a lineup.

  56. Baunilha*

    Hi everyone! There have been some layoffs at my company recently, and I’m worried I could be next. I’m looking for a new job, but in the mean time, do you have any advice about how to calm my anxiety about being unemployed?
    It’s really not a good time to lose my job (I mean, is it ever?), so any tips you have will be appreciated.
    Have a great weekend, everyone!

    1. been there*

      You are already doing the one thing that has always soothed my worried mind when I’ve been in your situation: Looking for other jobs has always reduced my anxiety about the one I’m in.

    2. Bookworm*

      I would go over your budget and savings. Cut back anything you don’t absolutely need, cancel subscriptions, etc.

      1. Colette*

        Agreed. Be really clear with yourself about what you need to live and what is nice to have.

        And if you can do so, increase how much you’re putting into savings.

      2. Board Member*

        Along these lines, as an anxious person, it actually helps me to think through the worst-cases scenario. I’m not sure if it works so well for everyone, but I find it helps. So like, let’s say I was laid off. How much savings would I have if that happened tomorrow? How long could I live on that? What would I do once I ran out? In my case, the ultimate “worst case scenario” is having to sell my house in about six months if I can’t find any kind of job in that time, and having to live with family for a while. I don’t know, but that’s actually better than the vague “death under a bridge the next day after I’m fired” scenario that my crappy brain dreams up. And if I really had six months, what would I do to earn money to make it last longer? Okay, now we’re in planning mode.

  57. Jenny Islander*

    I could use a little pep talk.

    I have several chronic lifelong problems, some diagnosed, some not. They add up to pain and trouble walking and lifting heavy things. This is relevant.

    After finally (!!!!!!!) getting authorized for testing that got me a diagnosis, I have begun treatment, which bids fair to increase my mobility and decrease my pain. However, this is going to take a long time.

    So I was offered a promotion at work. More money, yay! The catch is that it’s upstairs. I work in a historic structure that has no elevator.

    If I take it, I will have to go up and down stairs numerous times per day, and until my treatment progresses this will make me unable to do much after work. Lots and lots of pain is in the offing. I will also have to put on my big girl shoes and request an accommodation, i.e., get somebody else to schlep stuff. These are temporary issues; however, they are issues.

    I also suspect that my position is going away soon, because economy.

    So I know I can do this, and I need to do this. I just don’t wannnaaaaaa.

    1. Board Member*

      Aw, I’m sorry you’re having to think about this at what should be a happy time. I hope you find a way to make it work without adding to your pain.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Is it possible for you to get a medical accommodation to sit downstairs instead of upstairs at the new job? Maybe it’s not possible, but if it’s something like “the office for [job title] has always been upstairs and we don’t like change,” that’s something where your work should be able to accommodate you having an office/cubicle/desk downstairs.

      I’m glad you’re already planning on getting an accommodation to have someone else schlep stuff. That’s what accommodations are there for!

      Congrats on the promotion!

      1. Hyaline*

        Yes, was going to say–any possibility that the spot where this position works could change to accommodate you? The fact that the building can’t be modified to be more accessible should, ideally, mean that they’re willing to modify how the space is used instead!

    3. Nesprin*

      Take the job!!!! and ask for accommodation due to your limited mobility- you’ve done the hard work of getting a diagnosis so getting a dr letter should be not super hard!

    4. Nightengale*

      It sounds like your employer is covered under the ADA – would asking to keep your workspace downstairs be a reasonable accommodation? Or at least minimizing trips upstairs to once a day and cohort everything you have to do up there? Obviously depends on the nature of your work.

  58. Confused*

    My department has a new manager. She transferred from a different office (in another location). She has a habit of being maddeningly non-specific when she asks for something. For example, we do stoneware, porcelain, and silver teapots. They all have different reports. Manager will ask for the teapot report to be redone with a bunch of new info. When we ask her which specific teapot report she wants, she gets pissy. All requests and our answers are documented in email. We’re told we should know which one she wants and it’s bad to ask for clarification. We’re asking so we don’t waste our time as the revisions requested are extensive. Everyone is having this issue. She’s only been here about two weeks. Previous manager retired suddenly due to medical issues. We’ve had a department wide meeting to discuss our concerns and she’s said we were ganging up on her. Do we need to go above her? This is really affecting our work.

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      “we should know which one she wants and it’s bad to ask for clarification” is the set-up for a stale marriage joke. It’s not how people work in an office.

      I don’t know if it’ll be worthwhile or not, but the next time she says “You should know which one”, can you just respond “How?”. Maybe there are some language patterns she uses that you just haven’t picked up on that she could explain. Maybe in her old office, she always had to ask for the silver teapot reports to include a geography breakdown and the porcelain teapot reports to always include breakage estimates, and it’s just a habit with her and she never stopped to think that in the new office that stuff isn’t obvious.

    2. Pay no attention...*

      If you can, yes, go above her unless you think this will blow back on you.

      A work around might be to confirm rather than ask… maybe. It’s a dumb game and I’m not suggesting it’s the right way to manage at all … but when she gives extensive changes to an unspecified report or vague instructions, confirm that you will make these changes to the *silver teapot report* and have them ready by *9:00 am Friday*, for example. Hopefully if that is incorrect, she will take great pleasure in correcting you. It might be an ego thing for her to correct you rather than be questioned by you. Good luck.

    3. RagingADHD*

      I mean, the literal answer to “you should know which one” is “and yet, I do not.”

      Followed by complete silence and a neutral expression.

      Whether it’s on purpose or just because she’s incompetent, she is in effect playing mind games. Once it hits that point, you’re better off not even trying to play. Sometimes the best thing to do is just stare quietly at them until they come up with a reasonable response.

    4. Sweet Tea*

      It sounds like you really need to find more collaborative ways of working together with her. Is it possible to create a form listing all the types of reports that she could complete and submit? Is there a standard operating procedure documented somewhere you could show her so she’s better informed about how your reporting process works? Do you have project planning tools like Asana you could use so she can assign a specific report type to be completed by a certain person by a particular date? You’ve said she’s new, so she isn’t familiar with How Things Work at your office and part of your job is to help her learn those workflows. You have also said she’s your boss, which means your job is to help her succeed. It isn’t clear if the department meeting about the workflow problems you mentioned was held without her, but if it was that’s really bad – she’s absolutely right that people are ganging up on her. Even if the meeting included her and the tone was “boss you’re doing everything wrong”, she’s still correct that people are ganging up on her. The focus should be 1) supporting the new boss with learning how the new team works and 2) creating constructive solutions that make it easier for her to get what she needs to effectively run your department. Look for opportunities to put new ideas and solutions forward in a positive way and see if that helps.

  59. Can't Sit Still*

    I’m curious: If you work for a company that gives substantial annual bonuses or profit-sharing payouts, does work stop on payout day? As in, virtually all work comes to a stop, there’s no one in the office, no emails or IMs, no meetings or calls, just total silence?

    Back in the day when they were physical checks that had to be deposited, and you didn’t find out until you opened the envelope how much you received, that made sense, but now, it seems…odd?

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      Are these payouts surprises? Everywhere I’ve worked, they let us know in advance what the payouts would be – like a week or more – before the direct deposit hit.

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        Nope, no surprises. We are supposed to know a minimum of 2 weeks in advance, but it should never be a surprise on payout day.

        1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

          Weird.

          So is everybody out daydrinking or what? Early on management encouraged everybody to take the day off to celebrate, and now it’s part of the culture but not explicitly stated?

          I’ve never seen that kind of thing myself.

          1. Can't Sit Still*

            We have tens of thousands of employees, so it’s not like we are small shop that shuts down for the day. Management turns a blind eye to it, so I guess it’s just an unspoken cultural thing.

            In previous jobs, the annual bonus has ranged from the ever-popular $0 to $25 gift cards to Target or a free turkey or something to maybe $200 or so. Not something you’d need to take the day off to spend!

        1. former recruiter*

          I mean, I assume everyone still has work to do that day and beyond, so there would be no reason for work to stop. Are you thinking that people are so excited (or disappointed) to receive their bonus that they are too distracted to work?

    3. EMP*

      I’ve been at places with substantial annual bonus, and besides a few hushed watercooler convos comparing numbers, I’ve never seen it impact work the way you describe here.

    4. RivahGal*

      Yeah….no. We are all getting our annual performance bonuses next week; ahead of that we will have individual feedback meetings with our supervisors, but work goes on as usual. What you are describing would not happen here. We don’t even stop working when the fire alarms go off unless the FD shows up and forces us out. (Yes, it’s a little bit toxic here).

    5. Apex Mountain*

      Do you mean the company gives you the day off? Or everyone gets the bonus then goes out to celebrate?

      Sounds good to me either way!

      1. Can't Sit Still*

        It’s not an official day off, but it’s very apparent that it IS an unofficial day off. I was just curious if this was something specific to my company or not. Apparently, it is!

    6. Stop Looking Over My Shoulder*

      No. Granted, we don’t all get money. We have a choice between time and money. I always take the time award. It’s usually an extra week of vacation.

      The idea that all work would stop is odd. But, then again, I discovered my award about a month after it was given because I just didn’t look.

    7. Rick Tq*

      Nothing changes at our company of 80 people. Commissions and incentives are paid out on the 2nd payday after the quarter closes so annual bonuses are paid on January 31st. It is a normal work day for just about everyone.

      The profit sharing distribution is done after the final audits are complete but that goes to our individual 401(k) accounts directly and there is no change in activity or who is in the office.

    8. David*

      …what? :-P I mean, if that works for y’all at your company, that’s great, enjoy your non-working day, but honestly I would also find that extremely weird.

      My company gives a bonus of about 25% of our annual salary (the exact percentage varies a bit depending on company and individual performance), but nothing special happens at work on the day the bonus is awarded. In fact I don’t even know what day it gets awarded, until I see it show up in my bank account. I don’t know if it’s the same day for everyone, either.

  60. BellStell*

    So this happened to me at work last week and would love some perspective. I moved teams internally in January but still work on Project A of other team. Project A needs zoom to do webinars and workshops for clients in Africa, Asia, etc with interpretation channels as we usually have four languages going on. Teams does not allow for this and our org only uses one or other.

    I had a zoom on former team paid for from Project A for last 3 years. Used it in December all good. Went to login last week and the account No Longer Exists. So I start asking, IT, old team, Project A project manager etc.

    Turns out the former team boss lady shut it off to save money (it was pre paid on annual subscriptions until 2026. So we lost money as that last invoice was paid out then it was closed.)

    So I say to the PM ok either let me have access to the team account as this project is your team’s project or I will need to charge a new year and add to project A. She said no, i could not do that, so i said ok which is it? No costs are incurred by giving me zoom of team, so password and login please or invoice because what the fooooo?

    This whole transfer has been fraught with this kind of petty bull crap that I need to combat to do my damn job. Good news is project is over in June. Bad news is I will still have these kinds of messed up interactions at least a few more times before then I bet. Any idea what I can do to keep my sanity?

    1. Wednesday Wishing*

      Is there an option to just not worry that you can’t join the zoom and then- don’t?

      1. BellStell*

        I run these workshops for partners and clients so, nope. It will only be maybe two more from now til June so I hope to be away from this morass and in the team I moved too 100% then.

        1. Skytext*

          So, if you got hit by a bus and were laying in the hospital, so you couldn’t do the Zoom workshop, who would you call into and tell? The PM? A different manager? Because THAT is the person you need to tell “I need Zoom log in info, or I can’t do the workshop and you will need to find someone else.” Because it’s not that you “won’t” do, you literally can’t until they find a way to get you Zoom access.

  61. Thanks guys!*

    Mid-40s career change? I’m in my mid-40s and in grad school, doing an MA out of interest rather than with a direct career path. I don’t want to go back to my old profession, and I do have several options, but sometimes I think about the fact that I’m old enough that age discrimination legislation applies in some jurisdictions. I don’t need advice, but some encouraging stories about folks who changed careers in their 40s or later would help me a lot!

    1. Lifelong student*

      I was in my late 40’s when I got a BS in accounting and became a CPA. I was in my mid-fifties when I added an MBA and began teaching – first part time and later full time- as an instructor at post secondary institutions. I live in a relatively small city far from metropolitian areas and did just fine!

    2. Xennial student*

      You are not alone! I’m also a mid-40s career change student. A lot of people change careers in mid-life. And 40 isn’t as old as when that law was written ;)

    3. Storm in a teacup*

      Hi!
      I moved front frontline healthcare where I was a senior manager and service lead to working in the pharmaceutical industry at aged 43.
      Whilst I’ve used some of my experience and skills in the new role, it is a complete career change.
      Mostly it’s been liberating and I’ve loved learning and developing new skills and having time to do so.
      Sometimes I have found no longer being ‘the expert’ hard and sometimes when I realise those senior to me are a good 5 or 10 years younger it reminds me I’ve had to restart. But I remind myself I have a different background to them that’s equally valid.
      I’ve just had my 3rd promotion since I moved – which for my company is considered a fairly fast rise up the chain. Definitely my depth of experience is why.
      After 5 years I’ve started to miss being a manager so I’m getting more involved in mentoring others. So think about what in your current profession you enjoy and how you can capture those elements in your future career choice.

  62. Goose*

    I will be more than likely rushing off of a Greyhound bus to find a place to take a interview from on Monday. Just looking for thoughts and prayers and well wishes.

    2. Apex Mountain*

      Will there be a bus terminal? Not ideal but maybe if you have good headphones and it’s empty it could work

      1. Goose*

        I am arriving to a hotel–if I have enough time, I may be able to find a quiet place there. That’s the goal, at least!

        1. Caller 2*

          Can you contact the hotel ahead of time and ask them about your options? Fingers crossed for you!

  63. Update: Should I talk to HR?*

    In the February 21 open thread, I asked for guidance about talking to HR about our department head who is my interim boss while my manager’s position is vacant. I mentioned that while she’s good in her role overall, the issue is that she’s a micromanager. My peers and I understand that she has needed to immerse herself in our work to learn and we’ve of course involved her in everything. But after six months, she told me she needs to be in every meeting I have with another member of the executive team. She wants to be copied on any emails I send to any of them. She wants to review my emails to donors before I send them after many years of doing this on my own. And this is slowing our work down.

    I appreciated the feedback here, and went to HR with the goal of getting advice on how I could talk to our department head about the issue. It’s a good thing I did, because HR shared that multiple people on my team had already gone to them about this and similar issues. So while I was seeking advice to handle what was going on myself, my conversation in fact reinforced our leadership’s plan to talk to her themselves and coach her on her people skills. HR also scheduled a follow-up with me in a month to see if the situation was better.

    The outcome is so much better than trying to resolve the issue with the department head myself. Instead, I’m part of an anonymous group who spoke up and the resolution will come from the executive level of the organization.

    Thanks for everyone’s comments about what to do! And yes, I feel really lucky to work with such a great HR and executive team after reading here about how often that isn’t the case.

    1. Almost Jobless*

      You are so lucky! I’m in a similar situation (in the process of being fired–I posted earlier with more details). My soon to be former boss is a micromanager, and is unaware of how little she knows about how my job is done. She has ordered me to do things that will make it impossible for me to do my job, so I can’t succeed if I do what she asks, and if I don’t, then I’m insubordinate. I have asked HR what to do in that situation, and they have been spectacularly unhelpful.

      I hope your new permanent boss is much better than this.

    3. STEM Admin*

      The last time I had to deal with that sort of thing, the person policing access to leadership was doing it to control the narrative because she was shady as hell. It finally all came out, but only after a whole department fell apart. I’m watching new leadership trend down this same road and I’m really concerned. I guess we’ll see how everything plays out.

  64. Your friendly academic advisor*

    Does anyone else have to pay to park at their place of work? I work at a very large public university and everyone, employee or not, has to pay to park there. I pay $250 per year to park at 25 minute/1 mile walk from my office. There aren’t really any better off campus parking options, either. I’ve been paying this every year for the last five years and it’s getting old.

    1. not spring yet*

      when I worked at a university, this was true. There were different rates and lots for faculty/staff, grad students and undergrad students. It seems not unusual.

    2. GigglyPuff*

      That’s pretty normal and yours is a very low rate. University I worked at was ~$75/month and that was over ten years ago so probably more now. One place I interviewed, I was warned it was like $950/year but obviously I’d already been paying close to that. Right now I pay $5/day to park in metro parking, luckily metro is covered by work.

    3. Alex*

      Yes, that is par for the course in big cities. At my university it is something like $2500 per year!

    4. Anon soon to join you*

      Years back I worked in the Inner Harbor in Baltimore – we got a stipend for either transit or parking (not enough to cover, just to help), and then we had to find our own way to either get to work or park. I think it covered about half of my parking fees and the garage I found was about 6-7 blocks away. It was certainly inconvenient, and as the pay there was very low definitely a hit on an already limited paycheck, but it was a known thing from the time of the interview so people could be aware and decide if the situation was acceptable or not for them.

    5. resist 50JJ*

      Woof, yes I do. Also at a very large public university, but I pay about $117 a month to park on main campus. If I want cheaper parking (I think it’s $30 a month), I can pay to park on the secondary campus and take campus bus to main campus, but that adds 1.5 hours to my commute every day and has the added bonus of making me incredibly carsick twice a day.

      I’ve paid the more expensive price for the last 5 years so I don’t barf twice a day.

      1. resist 50JJ*

        Should also add, even parking on main campus is still a 10 minute walk to my workplace.

    6. It's Thursday!*

      my husband (at a university in the city) pays – though there are range of options and prices
      I (at a community college in the county) do not pay – we have lots of parking

    7. Justme, The OG*

      I work at a public university and pay more than $1000 a year to park. It is garage parking and it’s about a 10 minute walk to my building. It’s also by far the closest parking to my building.

    8. A*

      Occasionally paid parking is offered as an employee benefit but by and large it is up to the employee to pay it.

      A monthly parking garage pass here hardly ever goes for less than $150 per month.

    9. Charly*

      This is the case at my institution as well, although our union has been lobbying for many years for exemptions or at least better rates for staff

    10. HannahS*

      Hospitals, and yes. Your cost is quite low by comparison. You’re paying about a dollar a day, if you work five days a week and have two weeks off a year. I pay the equivalent of 5$ USD a day, which I consider a bargain in the very expensive city where I live. In my region, if you live in a big city at a major employer, you’re paying for parking.

    11. WantonSeedStitch*

      I don’t drive, but I also work at a large university in a major city, and everyone who wants to park on campus has to pay for a parking pass. OTOH, we also all automatically get free public transit passes for the subway and bus systems.

    12. Bike Walk Bake Books*

      As your friendly transportation policy advisor I’ll point you to the late lamented Donald Shoup’s work “The High Cost of Free Parking.” Yes, you need to pay for it because parking development is quite expensive and I can pretty much guarantee that nondrivers are subsidizing that spot for you through other fees, costs built into tuition, etc.

    13. Another Academic Librarian*

      I’m also at a large public university, and I pay $150/month to park behind the building I work in. I think that’s a lot, but worth it if I don’t have to walk a mile. (I’m 72.)

    14. Momma Bear*

      I have had to pay in the past and it was my choice to pick a garage or take transit. Getting a stipend was nice, but didn’t always happen. I’ve had jobs where FTEs had parking and contractors (me) did not. Does the campus have a rideshare board? Would you consider splitting the commute and the cost with someone? While $250 is not fun it’s also way less than the going rate for a lot of parking garages so maybe take some solace in that.

    15. Hyaline*

      Yes, (also at a university) and it’s IMO ridiculous. At least I pay less than that and have a garage near my building, but still! It’s not like I have any other option but to drive to work and park if I want to work? If we had other options–being able to take public transit to work, or parking further away or less convenient–I’d accept paying a premium to park, but as it stands…I can’t do anything else.

    16. Roland*

      That sounds extremely cheap tbh. I just checked faculty parking rates at my alma mater (large urban campus) and it’s around 2000 a year – a little more for better (more central) lots and a little less for worse (more remote) lots. I think even the “value” lots have options that are closer than a mile to most buildings, so that definitely sucks, but I’d take the 10x savings.

    17. Rara Avis*

      My husband worked downtown. Lightrail went right in front of his place of employment, and all employees got free transit passes for the bus/lightrail sustem. If you didn’t use public transportation, you had to pay public parking rates in downtown lots.

    18. BlueberryGirl*

      Every Uni I’ve ever worked at, staff and faculty paid for parking. Our lots cost between 25 a month for the worst one (which is doing three flights of stairs which ice over in the winter and are miserable to hike up) to the closest in lots which are about 60 dollars per month.

    19. Wfh4vr*

      Yup, higher ed, pay for hourly parking. Hate it, esp as my dept is one day a week in office. Cheap b&@:rds won’t even give us one free day.

    20. Xennial student*

      I pay $120 per MONTH and I am a part-time student who was hired on at minimum wage. Contractors are charged the public rate; the employee rate is significantly cheaper. I know one of the other students parks on the street but options are extremely limited. The garage is safer and more convenient.

    21. STEM Admin*

      I pay around $100/month. I could ride the bus for free, but decided it was more important to have immediate access to my car when I need it.

  65. Benefits Admin*

    I work for a medium non-profit and we’re exploring ways to expand our employee benefits to be a more competitive employer. Our regular benefits are pretty robust already (20 vacation days + 12 holidays + 12 sick days, fully paid employee health insurance, fully paid transit pass, monthly cell phone stipend, 5% retirement matching, hybrid work policy), and we’ve recently invested in bringing employee salaries up to market with the work of some outside salary consultants.

    What other benefits would be compelling to you as an employee?

    1. Alex*

      This isn’t super usual, but I fantasize about working at a company that gives a sabbatical after a certain number of years of service. I’ve heard of some companies having this–like after 10 years, you get a 3 month sabbatical that you can use for whatever you want.

      1. Colette*

        Yeah, I worked for a place that had sabbaticals – I think it was an extra 3 weeks at 5 years, 4 at 10, 5 at 15? That was in addition to the vacation you got, and you had to take your entire sabbatical at once. (I did not make it to 5 years, though.)

    2. A*

      Your org sounds really generous already so think of these two suggestions as a wish list:

      (1) employer match (or partial match) tuition expenses for further education. Even 20% would be nice.

      (2) pet insurance as part of the benefits package.

    4. HannahS*

      Wow, that’s incredible. I agree with allowing sabbaticals. I know local employer that allows a 2/3 sabbatical: you can get two years’ salary paid over three years (so you make 2/3 of your income for three years) and the third year you don’t work.

      Also: flexible working hours, WFH, robust parental leave. If you’re in the US, you’ve probably heard a bajillion times how different things are in other places–consider offering a year of paid leave.

      1. Momma Bear*

        You’re already doing a lot!

        A Sabbatical would be amazing, even just a few weeks’ worth.

        What do you offer folks who don’t need the transit pass? Old job paid for people’s parking but would not give someone who took the bus the equivalent in transit benefits. She quit. Do drivers get anything or just transit users?

        Is the retirement only matching? If I did absolutely nothing at my company, I’d still get 3% of my salary in a retirement account. Would you be willing to make a % a safe harbor contribution?

        Does your healthcare cover domestic partnerships and if not, could that become an option? Also, longterm healthcare coverage aka assisted living insurance as an option, even if not fully paid by the company. Being old is not cheap.

        What’s your family leave like? I had it “good” and I still only had 12 weeks with my newborn. That’s not enough. General support for families – private pumping space, flexibility to take care of children or aging parents or anyone you need to be a caregiver for, etc. That seems to be what a lot of people need mid-career.

    5. HonorBox*

      I’d say your benefits sound really robust and very generous. But if you’re looking to beef things up, what would be compelling to me are the following:
      1. Any sort of paid gym membership
      2. Paid tuition for advanced degree
      3. A generous parental leave policy, applied to both parents, and that includes adoption
      4. Robust technology upgrades for the organization
      Non-profits I know are usually holding onto computers, etc. until they completely just stop functioning.
      5. Cover a percentage of family member health insurance so the employee isn’t paying 100% for dependents

    6. Melody Powers*

      Do you have dental coverage in addition to health insurance? That was a big thing for my current job.

    7. Strive to Excel*

      From my perspective, you’ve covered a lot of the major needs and it would come down to smaller pain points for me.

      * Tech and supplies – how much of a pain is it to get a replacement keyboard? Or an ergonomic keyboard?

      * Office furniture – do you have standing desks? Double monitors? Desk chairs from this millenia? If you don’t have good light or sound insulation, upping some of the general comfort items can be very solid. If you’re working in a non-office environment there’s always similar points of comfort to consider.

      * If you’re in an environment with a bunch of parents – some form of emergency daycare? I recall a prior workplace had 10 childcare coverage days available. Maybe through Bright Horizons? Really useful for parents if you have an kid at home unexpectedly.

      Beyond that, I’d turn the focus less to the $ benefits and more towards preventing disfunction. Vacation days are no good to someone who feels pressured to always be available. I’m not assuming that’s the case – just that it’s a good next step to check.

    8. Defective Jedi*

      Sounds like a great place to work already! There were some excellent suggestions in the “ask the readers” post from Oct 13, 2022 here on AAM. Search for “how can we make our benefits more inclusive” to check it out.

      1. Benefits Admin*

        thanks for pointing me towards this! I didn’t remember that there was a post about this question.

    9. Mid*

      Paid volunteer days maybe? Like every employee can get a day or two per year that they can use to volunteer for whatever cause they want to?

      Tuition/education help would be great, especially if it could 1. Be applied to dependents or 2. Be applied without being directly tied to their current role. (Eg allowing an accountant to use the education stipend for art classes, instead of only further accounting or business classes.)

      Making sure your employee health plan costs are affordable for spouses and dependents. I’ve seen companies that offer no-cost insurance for employees, but then spouse benefits are unreasonably expensive, and family plans are worse.

      Childcare support/stipends, or emergency childcare coverage.

      Collaborate with local small businesses to provide local products/services? Theater tickets, local sports teams, especially small businesses or organizations that could really benefit from your sponsorship/support.

      Also sabbaticals are a *dream* and I would love if that was offered.

    10. Little Miss Helpful*

      One perk we once had was access to a child care service for mildly sick kids. The agency would send a nanny to your house if your kid was too sick for school but not sick-sick. (The parent paid the cost of the babysitter)

    11. Perks*

      Vision and dental insurance if you don’t already have it. Transportation vouchers/reimbursement for people who use transit and have to stay late, fully remote for jobs that allow it, parking fee help for those who drive, flexible work hours as job demands permit, lunch delivery service (can be paid for by employees- thinking something like Peach), discounted or free vending machines or other source if snacks/drinks, schedule of company paid breakfast or lunch in office (one place I worked the company had free snacks + drinks, brought in bagels on Wednesdays and had a catered company lunch every Friday; another company kept snacks + bagels + yogurt + cream cheese + more available all the time; another company had free snacks, free drinks, and a monthly lunch – if you want more RTO or hybrid folks to prioritize the same fats in office this can help a lot too)

  66. Open Office Goodnight*

    For folks in an open office, hot desk situation – who do you say goodbye or goodnight to when you leave for the day? Do you find all of the folks in your department/team, wherever they may be sitting, and say goodbye/goodnight? Just the team members you can see from your desk that day? Do you just pack up and quietly leave, saying goodbye to anyone who happens to notice? Does it make a difference if you’re in the office for just part of the day, say leaving at noon and WFH in the afternoon, vs staying in the office a full day? What do you want your boss to do when they leave?

    We have flex schedules and come and go at different times, and we’re only in the office 3 days per week. It feels weird to just walk out, like I’m ignoring people. But it also feels weird to wander around with my backpack on looking for people to say goodbye to in-person.

    1. Rick Tq*

      I’d just post a sign-off message on Teams or whatever chat system you use and say goodbye to whoever is in the immediate vicinity. No need to circulate to personally tell your teammates you are leaving for the day.

      No difference for half day or full day.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I’ve never thought about the social dynamics of this at all. For me, it’s just a matter of eye contact/line of sight, and whether I’ve been closely working with someone throughout the day and particularly need to let them know that I’m out.

      If you consider the old days of 100% in person, private offices, you wouldn’t stick your head in everyone’s door to say goodbye, but you’d nod or talk to people you met in the hallway or the elevator lobby, and you might seek out one or two people in particular.

    3. Colette*

      Yeah, I think you say goodbye to anyone who notices you leaving, or anyone who might need to know (i.e. if you’ve been waiting for someone to get back to you with info, I’d tell them as well, even if it’s not in person). But I wouldn’t hunt people down.

    4. Momma Bear*

      Not necessarily – Teams will tell people I’m offline. At a prior job we also set our messages to show what site we were at so I already didn’t expect a message from Paul if I knew he was out with the client. If I’m actively communicating with someone that afternoon, I’ll say something about heading out, have a nice day, we’ll regroup on this Monday. It also kind of depends on the office. If you physically share desk space with people, then you won’t be able to sneak out and I’d say good night to those in the room. I have no idea when my boss arrives/departs. When I was in the open office it was nice to know if the boss was going to be offline and unreachable but it kind of didn’t matter if he was done for the day or not.

      In your case, make sure Teams says your status and say a quick “bye, all” to anyone in the room at the time.

    5. allathian*

      I’ll just tell my close coworkers on Teams, and on in-office days I’ll say goodbye, have a good weekend or whatever to everyone I meet, but it’s very rare for me to search someone out to say goodbye in person.

  67. E.*

    Question for the masses: Whenever I get contacted by a recruiter, I ask them a couple things just to make sure we’re not wildly out of sync. Just salary range and whether the role they’re trying to fill is remote, hybrid, or on-site 5 days a week; nothing strange or super in depth IMO, but I’ve never worked as a recruiter, so I freely admit my ignorance. But over the last week or two I’ve had a few recruiters push back on that and want to only discuss that on a call.

    From where I’m sitting these questions make sense, because relocation, 100% remote, and 100% on-site and are no-gos for me (massive legacy companies I worked at 12+ years ago had flex work policies back then). I’ve had a number of calls with recruiters recently where we had to set up a time, and within like a minute or two the recruiter tells me they’re only hiring on the opposite coast, or it’s 5 days a week in office, no exceptions. Each time I think that if I’d known that ahead of time I would’ve passed on it and saved us both time. I’ve also been in my industry for ~15 years now and have a pretty decent resume, so I figure I’m not being a diva or anything by asking. But I’ve had a few responses like “I’d really rather discuss that on the phone so you can ask any other questions too :)”

    Am I being unreasonable here? Thanks!

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I’m not a recruiter either, so I’m answering this in ignorance.

      Because you know your deal-breakers, maybe it would help to tell them to recruiters vs. asking open-endedly what the remote/hybrid/on-site situation is? For example:

      I am only looking for hybrid roles at this time. Is this a hybrid role (100% remote and 100% on-site are both dealbreakers for me)?

      I am not looking to relocate. Is this role located in the [city metropolitan area]?

      If the answers to both the above questions are “yes,” I’m happy to set up a time to talk more about this role.

      Hopefully recruiters don’t want to waste their own time so they won’t bother to set up a call if they’re recruiting for a job on the opposite coast, a job that’s on-site 5 days a week, etc.

      1. Hlao-roo*

        Also, to answer your actual question:

        I think your questions are reasonable, but your expectations of recruiters might be too high. I think recruiters (in general) have a very strong preference for phone calls so I am not surprised that they mostly don’t answer your (reasonable!) questions in an email.

    2. EMP*

      You’re not being unreasonable. The recruiters are just trying to get you on the phone in the hopes that they’ll have a relatively captive audience to pitch to.

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      They know that there are a lot of people who say they are non-negotiable about relocation, in-person, etc. but hope that you’re one of those that they can schmooze. Just by buying up-front and honest, you’re not a diva. I think you can safely assume that “I want to talk about that over the phone” = it doesn’t meet your requirements.

    4. Response Junkie*

      You’re not being unreasonable, IMO. I’ve had it happen a couple of times too. I agree with the others that it’s probably because they think they can talk you into it once you’re having a conversation, but I also suspect that “screening phone calls” is a metric that some staffing agencies have, which means that there’s an incentive to have a phone call even if it doesn’t go anywhere. Just a guess – I don’t work in the field.

      1. E.*

        Yeah, I agree that’s most reasonable. I get why agencies would like that, but on this current job hunt I’ve seen this from internal recruiters at some big companies too. Using number of calls as a KPI for internal recruiters makes no sense from where I’m sitting.

        Then again, TBH, upper management is totally out of touch at a few of the big name tech companies. So what do I know.

    5. Parenthesis Guy*

      You’re being reasonable. They just want to get a candidate on the phone if things are quiet.

    6. Kay*

      You aren’t being unreasonable but I think it might help to think of recruiters like car salespeople, their business just happens to be jobs vs cars. I think the more specific you get the better your results will be. If I got that kind of response from a recruiter I would say something like “I’m only looking for a salary over X/between X and Z and hybrid work in the B area – if that lines up with the position I would love to talk”. If they don’t confirm, well, you have your answer.

  68. Banananaan*

    What is a professional, polite way to say, “you’ve misunderstood my email?” Or, “you didn’t read my email, please go back and review it?”

    This week I’ve been engaged in a quick-turnaround, high priority proposal, and it’s clear the coordinator is skimming emails. I’m in the same boat so I sympathize, but it’s happening so often that it’s becoming an issue. It’s not so terrible or normal that I think I should go to her supervisor–I think it’s just situational–yet I want to gently flag her to this behavior.

    I said, “I’m sorry, but I think you’ve misunderstood what we are asking about tea pot structure. We’re asking for the specific type of design requested by the client, not our capabilities.” Plus follow up description clarifying what we’re asking for and what we can provide.

    Any suggestions?

    1. A*

      I think saying “you’ve misunderstood my email” or “please re-read my email and respond accordingly” are professional and polite.

      I think people use the word “gently” a lot. The implication when this is used feels like if there is a magic way to say things the other party won’t get upset. This isn’t possible a good deal of the time. Nobody wants it pointed out that they are skimming and missing but sometimes that needs to be pointed out anyway.

      If you switch your mindset from “I need to be gentle” to “I need to be tactful and professional” I think you will realize you know exactly what to say.

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      If this is happening a lot, you might want to reconsider how you are communicating. You may get better results by changing what you are doing, rather than hoping that the coordinator changes their behavior.

      Should this be in the body text or the comments of a shared document instead of an email? Should it be in a start-of-the-day assignments message – bullet point list without any prose? What about phone call, Slack, etc? Should you be writing to this person using a different style of email – bottom line up front (BLUF), for example?

      1. WantonSeedStitch*

        This. It could be helpful to ask her whether these things could help her get to the important details of your emails quickly. You could even frame it as “I feel like we’ve had to go back and forth a few times to clarify things. Would this help?”

      2. Banananaan*

        That’s a great point about changing how we communicate. I think that we’re OVERcommunicating on this proposal–there are so many email chains and meetings that it’s difficult to keep up. Another twist is that the coordinator is from the company that acquired mine, and they are acting as prime on this proposal. We are acting as subcontractors. So there’s the wrinkle of different proposal procedures.

        Since I wrote my original comment, the PM on my team suggested to the coordinator that they work on their side of the proposal in their style, and we’ll work on ours, and we’ll come together at the end. Trying to throw everything into the pot and sort it out later is giving everyone a headache.

    3. Nesprin*

      Give her a call and apologize/pump for information on how she misunderstood/give next steps & corrections- if she missed the info in the first email, it may not have been clear enough and if she’s caused problems as a result you’ll want to raise that with her.

    4. cmdrspacebabe*

      My email style is generally pretty casual and I tend to lean on ‘we’ statements to avoid any potential defensiveness. Something like, “I’m not sure we’re on the same page here – I’m wondering specifically about the request from Client X. Do you have any info on these items?
      -Question 1
      -Question 2”

      I do tend to be ‘gentler’ in my phrasing than a lot of folks, though, and I default to a lot of the ‘face-saving’ phrasing Allison often mentions. It’s entirely possible I overcorrect and it’s not really necessary… but I also have a demonstrably easier time working with ‘prickly’ people than a lot of my teammates (including teammates in my demographic, so it’s not a matter of race/gender/etc.). I don’t know if my ingratiating phrasing is a factor, but I do strongly suspect it is. :P

      1. Banananaan*

        I love the language you’ve suggested! I’m in the same boat–I tend to be very go with the flow, “everyone makes mistakes sometimes” attitude at work. I often default to face-saving.

    5. Hyaline*

      I usually default to, “I’m so sorry, I wasn’t clear [even if I was crystal clear]! I was asking about the chicken egg colors, not the colors of the chicken plumage.” And that’s because not infrequently, well, the other person did misread and it is on them, but I probably could have been clearer (maybe). That’s written communication for you!

      But if it’s happening so frequently that it’s definitely bordering on carelessness on her part, not just the occasional ooops, I think I’d probably start to edge my replies a bit firmer, though still tactful and professional, onto “I’m sorry, but that wasn’t my question–as I mentioned, we’re looking for information about chicken egg colors” or “I’m afraid you’ve misunderstood the problem–we’re trying to find out X” kinds of emails. (I don’t tend to prefer “re-read my previous email” as I do think that can come off a little snarky and instead I’ll copy and paste it with a “I’ve copied my question below” if it’s too long or complex to just re-ask.)

      1. BlueberryGirl*

        Yeah, I think these suggestions for language are really good. I’d also look at your own emails, as someone else suggested, to make sure they are easy to read quickly. I do have one coworker who does this and I used the phaseing “I don’t think you understood my question. So, let me rephrase in case I wasn’t clear.
        Question 1
        Question 2
        Thanks.”
        And then occasionally I have to repeat this process when she gives me a “yes/no” answer to a question that wasn’t really a “yes/no” question.

      2. Banananaan*

        Thank you for the language suggestions! Yes, I agree about “re-read my previous email”. If it wasn’t clear then, it probably won’t be clearer the second time.

  69. Accidental car salesman*

    I was doing a 1:1 meeting with one of my direct reports when “Sarah” mentioned she was planning to buy a car but was hesitant because it’s such a big purchase. I shared that I have no current advice to give because I last bought a car 20 years ago. She asked what I had, so I told her and explained why I really loved it and was super happy with it. I guess I really talked it up, because a few days later Sarah told me that she went out and bought the car I recommended, and said that my endorsement is what clinched it for her. Now I’m wondering if I overstepped, especially as her grandboss. I did not mean for her to go buy the car I recommended, as I don’t know her exact financial situation. But she said she was already thinking about that car anyway, so maybe it’s fine?

    1. Bella Ridley*

      It’s her lookout. If she was already thinking about it and she got an iron-clad recommendation from someone she trusted, sounds fine.

    2. Better Plum*

      If I was feeling decision fatigue and someone told me that their car was running well at TWENTY years old, I’d feel like that–if I had to spend money on a car in this economy–I’d want one that held its value and be grateful for the recommendation!

    3. HonorBox*

      You’re fine. You provided a real human’s perspective that probably helped her wade through all of the details on various websites. Especially if she had never gone through the car buying experience before, she was probably overwhelmed. She got solid data from someone she trusts.

    4. Turingtested*

      I asked an old boss who I trusted for advice buying a car. he recommended certified pre owned vs just used because (like me) he doesn’t work on cars.

      it worked out beautifully. I wouldn’t have over extended myself on his advice.

  70. Anonanon*

    We have a new HR leader who keeps using the phrase “work life integration” and saying that they disagree with “work life balance” because work you love should be a valued part of your life. One example they gave was going to a doctor’s appointment during the weekdays, but then signing onto a business call while on vacation. I…have many problems with this idea. Namely, what if you don’t love your job and it’s just a job? Also, never being truly “off” seems like a recipe for toxicity and burnout. I have been known to lurk email when on PTO (without responding) so that I know what I’m coming back to, but I don’t want my reports doing that OR for that the be the expectation.

    Is this “work life integration” a new corporate buzzword? What the heck does it mean?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      I think I have heard “work life integration” as far back as 7 or 8 years ago, so it may not be ~new~ but it is definitely a corporate buzzword. It basically means the same as “work life balance.”

      I also do not like the example of signing on to a business call while on vacation. Because you have reports, it’s probably worthwhile to reiterate to them that their vacation time is theirs, you expect them to disengage and relax, not to log on to work calls during their vacation time.

      1. Accrual World*

        >> It basically means the same as “work life balance.”<<

        No, it means the opposite of work life balance, at least if you understand "work life balance" to mean actually having a life. A student asked a panel of CPAs about work life balance and was told that question was a "red flag." One of the women responded, "It's not about work life balance, it's about work life integration." An example another firm manager gave is she gets to go to her kid's games, but she's working before they get up and after they go to bed. "Work life integration" is a term that normalizes long hours and never being "off."

    2. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think it means exactly what your new HR person says. You should love your work, and it should be central to your identity, therefore it should take over other parts of your life.

      Never heard it before, but there are lots of weird work/motivation/pseudo-philosophy subcultures where something like this could have come from.

    3. cmdrspacebabe*

      I’ve run into it in my workplaces as well. I have mixed feelings about it. I much prefer to be able to sign off completely, but the folks I’ve seen supporting it are generally using the argument that that’s not an option for them. I’ve seen it most from upper-level executives whose work involves being a lot more ‘on call’, or occasionally from people (usually women, tbh) who have a lot of outside obligations like caregiving and need very flexible hours. Actually, come to think of it, I think I may mostly have seen it from women in general, which would be……. interesting.

      I’m not WHOLLY against it – I think it’s a valid option for some people, and plenty probably find it rewarding – but I do think that it could be a dangerous precedent, if that kind of structure becomes a cultural expectation for people who don’t want to work that way (and especially with that “hmmmm, seems like it’s mostly women” thing in the back of my mind). Like many such things, I think it’s easy for employers to twist into a format where staff are expected to be always available without getting the same consideration in return.

      1. cmdrspacebabe*

        Also, I feel like this is the kind of philosophy that makes a lot more sense if you’re an entrepreneur who has chosen to run your own business/non-profit/etc. If it’s being pushed top-down by a management team as a wellness initiative or something in a regular corporate job, I’d be suspicious.

      2. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

        I prefer work/life integration to work/life balance. I’m someone who relaxes better if I can check in for 5 minutes on vacation now and again and know that nothing’s going terribly wrong (and experience has taught me that it’s not idle insanity; things have gone off the rails where I could be the voice of reason, or would be served by the voice of reason, in the past).

        Balance, in my experience, is rigid and inflexible. I know a lot of people who like that, because it means the Life part is supposed to get its time. I find integration more flexible, but it requires more bidirectional trust and has more potential for abuse.

    4. No Tribble At All*

      Bleuuuuugh, I’d be furious if a leader! And an HR one, at that! said we should sign onto a call on vacation. The only time I did that was (a) it was a staycation and (b) it was an all-hands, and they tend to announce things with no warning then.

    5. HonorBox*

      To answer your questions: I’ve never heard it, but I think the HR leader’s definition seems right because they defined it the way they see it.

      And to be clear and fair… I think the idea sucks. While many people LOVE what they do, many work because they have to in order to pay bills, and to afford the opportunity to do things they love. That doesn’t have to mean taking a monthly cruise. It might be that you love to crochet and have some additional funds to pay for your yarn.

      While work life balance is a fraught concept and can be used as a weapon, I think balance is what we should strive for, both for ourselves and for our employees. Yes, it is true that there may be no way around taking a work call while you’re on vacation and that can be balanced with a trip to the dentist for which you’re still paid. But people should be able to get away. And people should be able to feel like their work isn’t the only thing that defines them.

    6. Caller 2*

      Your new HR leader sucks. I’d personally love a job that didn’t expect me to do things like call in on my vacation. That sort of thing would make me love a job.

    7. Turingtested*

      I worked at a company where on of the founders was big on work life integration though I forget his term for it.

      We were in fine foods, and it had been 20 years since he worked the retail aspect of the business. He traveled the world hunting excellent food, writing articles, and giving business lectures. He seemed to not understand why a clerk or a line cook might not find it so easy to seamlessly integrate their work and life.

      I think this line of thinking is way out of touch for most professions/positions.

    8. Momma Bear*

      It means they don’t want you to have any kind of work life balance. I can’t help that the dentist is only available M-F during business hours but I for sure would not be dialing into a call on my well-earned PTO days. I would keep boundaries so that work doesn’t bleed into life. I do not have a job where I need to be on 24/7 for a reason.

    9. HR Exec Popping In*

      It is a buzz word and basically is an acknowledgement that what one person finds as balance can be very different than what another person needs. I disagree with your HR person. Not everyone “loves” their work. And that is ok. Ideally people find a job that is fall somewhere between not hating it and loving it. For me, it moves along that continuum regularly. And my sense of “a healthy work/life balance” also changes. So I don’t mind the term integration – basically figuring out how to live a full life that includes both work and non-work stuff. Sometimes my personal life takes priority and sometimes my work life does. That doesn’t mean anything is wrong or “out of balance”. I do what I need to do and have gives and takes.

      1. Unpleased*

        I am here, too. I happen to love the job I have now but everybody doesn’t have to love their work. I also don’t have routine work days because activities and pace can change a lot. Thinking about integration feels like a better match for my situation. Balance, especially over a longer term, doesn’t capture how I have to adjust make these things fit together.

  71. Reading Thread*

    What professional books are you currently reading? Also, if you care to share, what do you think of it and why did you choose it? I am reading Managing Up by Melody Wilding. I read a review about it and discussed it with one of the kids, and they thought it would be useful at this point in their career (just got a new boss and can’t quite figure them out) but felt too swamped to read it. So I said I’d read it and give my opinion on it, but I’m only in the first chapter.

    1. JustMyImagination*

      I enjoyed and have applied the concepts of “speed-reading people” and “the first 90 days”. I appreciate you wanting to help your son, but the greatest value of these books is reading the passages about issues that resonate with you and learning the strategies to address those issues. Someone else reading it and trying to pull what’s important to you isn’t going to be nearly as impactful.

      1. Reading Thread*

        I agree…the kiddo has to read it on their own…I’m just reading some of it to give an opinion on if it’s worth their while. Like a second book review! Plus I do enjoy reading that sort of thing even if it isn’t applicable to my own career right now. (I may be weird.)

  72. No Tribble At All*

    What does a career trajectory for mediocre people look like? Manager and I were going over some notes about my performance review, and he mentioned what I’d need to do to move up in seniority. What I didn’t want to say is— dude I don’t know if I want to move up? I see people my age or even younger taking on huge amounts of responsibility, and I just… don’t want that? I have a 1yr old I’d rather focus on. At my position, there doesn’t seem to be a promotion track that *isnt* people manager. Can’t I just continue to be good at what I’m doing? (Or, since I got “doing fine” on my performance review, can’t I focus on trying to get Great at what I’m doing?)

    I have 10 years experience. My company is still pretty startup-y, so we have a lot of people with either 5 years or 35 years experience. I just don’t know what it looks like to continue on in a role. I don’t really know what I’m asking, but… what does one *do* for the rest of your career once you’re no longer “early career”?

    1. Cheezmouser*

      First, I’d reframe it from “what do mediocre people do?” to “what do people who have other priorities besides work do?” Just because you don’t want to move up doesn’t mean you’re mediocre. You can be a stellar performer *and* have no interest in moving up. Maybe you’re happy with where you are and the level of responsibility you currently have, so it’s more “what do people who are satisfied with their current position do?”

      You mention that your performance review was “doing fine” but you want to get to “great,” so that’s one thing to focus on. Another thing is to keep building your skills and learning new things related to your job, especially as technology and best practices keep changing. If your job is fairly static/unchanging, then maybe you can set goals for yourself like “I’m going to increase by output by X%” or “I’m going to shorten my response time by Y.” You can stay in your current position for a long time if you want and still not get bored/stagnant if you take it upon yourself to make improvements.

    2. I only do fancy girl math!*

      Employers often assume people want to move up, so you could say that you’re enjoying growing in your current role for the time being.

      But your current employer may not be the best place to do that if it’s relatively start-upy. It’s common in my field and many others to have mechanisms for giving promotions for people who have more experience. Like junior and senior cat minder. Senior cat minders make more because they’re even more skilled and accomplished than the best junior cat minders.

    3. Caller 2*

      Does moving up necessarily mean more stress and time and energy in all jobs and professions? Because I don’t want stress and to spend more time and energy on work either, but surely my years of experience would sometimes mean that stepping up into a new role isn’t actually requiring all that much more of me? At least sometimes?

    4. cmdrspacebabe*

      I’d go with ‘get better and better at what you’re doing’. I’m in the same boat – similar length of experience and the next promotion up from my current position involves management/personnel work, which I have absolutely 0 interest in. I have developed a ton in my role as an individual contributor, though. For me, that looks like:

      – Vast repertoire of institutional knowledge, history, and best practices – I’m a go-to on tons of subjects
      – Strong and intuitive understanding of common issues and how to proactively address them in my org’s specific context
      – Longstanding relationships with senior leaders and key partners who know me and trust my work
      – And other stuff that’s hard to describe in generalities, but I’m sure you get the gist. :P

    5. Momma Bear*

      Not everyone wants to be in management. We’ve had people take on managerial roles and ask to be demoted, basically. Or maybe you’ll take on a Project Lead role, but don’t want to do Manager Stuff full time. I agree to state you are not interested in a manger role at this time and you see value in your skills x, y, and z. At a former job we had a guy who was very senior but made it clear he only wanted to code and not manage and the big boss wisely realized he was more valuable doing work he liked.

    6. Parenthesis Guy*

      It depends on how high up you are.

      People don’t stay entry-level their entire life. If you say you want to remain entry level, they’re going to look at you funny. Realistically, you probably have two or three promotions before you get to a point where you have to choose whether you want to be a people manager or not.

      At that point, many companies have a track where you can do harder and harder individual level work. Some don’t though, and if you want to be paid as an “expert”, you’ll need to leave.

      In addition, the higher up you get, the less likely you can move up and the more understandable it is if you say you don’t want to move up. If you’re a Director for example, people will understand that you don’t want to be a VP.

    7. SansaStark*

      I was like this for a long time and just concentrated on getting really, really good at my job and learning about the industry. But I clocked out at 4:30pm on the dot and didn’t think about work for a second more than they paid me to. Several years later, I realized that I did actually want to move up, have more responsibility, etc. and it was much easier because I had a lot of knowledge from becoming very good at my entry-levelish job. What I’m saying is that it’s fine to be in the chapter of your life where your personal life is far more important than your work life (and maybe that’s how you’ll always feel, which is also fine!), but becoming “great” as you say at your job now will help keep keep a door cracked open just in case you do change your mind later.

    8. Achiever*

      I totally feel you. I recently took a job that was, quite honestly, a step back career wise because I was 1000% burnt out from taking a couple of promotions in quick succession. My current boss is really ambitious (not in a toxic way) and I just reiterate to her that my work life balance and what I have going on outside is most important to me right now. I still do high quality work, but I’m not going to take every stretch project that’s offered anymore.

    9. Be the Change*

      Just be aware that in many orgs, there will not be a pathway to good raises without moving “up,” no matter how fantastic you get at your area. Make that choice with your eyes open and don’t resent the result.

  73. Better Plum*

    Does anyone feel like work only gets done on Tu/Wed/Thurs in their lines of work? I am finding it increasingly difficult to get ahold of anyone on a Friday, internally or with any of my external partners. If I don’t hear from someone by noon on a Friday, I might as well wait until Monday. But in my company, Monday is a common day off as well! And then the work that is happening on Tues/Wed/Thurs is extremely fractured because everyone has a different concept of when to reply to someone via phone or email and god forbid we actually use Teams as a company because some of the luddites in charge “don’t get it.” So, I get to Friday, with a million loose threads, knowing none will get resolved until next week and I get resentful because I don’t want to be a capitalist goon, whining about how work isn’t getting done! But come Friday, I feel that way!

    1. The Pet from the Resume*

      No. But many of us work a compressed schedule and most people are off every other Friday so Fridays are quiet. Sometimes after a long week it’s hard to stay focused on work on Friday when I’m not running from meeting to meeting. But today I made significant progress on catching up on email. I feel I was very productive. I was briefly down to ZERO unread emails.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      Sometimes! I tend to plan around it knowing who is going to be in and out. I tend to send anything that needs external communications Tues-Thurs and then saving internal work for Monday/Friday

    3. Fridays*

      Fridays are often the only day I can do actual work, so I try to keep other people’s paws off it (it’s also the only day it can be relatively straightforward to take off, so I do take some as PTO). When I don’t succeed I don’t get my work done – but I appear more available to others because they claimed my “actually get stuff done” time. Just an alternate perspective.

  74. LadyKelvin*

    I have a question along the lines of the resume post the other day. I am a federal employee and a scientist and am applying for private sector jobs, many of which are outside of my specific field but would still use my analytical skills. I can reduce my resume pretty easily because I worked in non-science fields before I did my PhD, but what do I do with my publications record? I feel like part of my “proof” that I am an expert in this quantitative skill that is transferable is in the fact that I’ve published a bunch of papers on it and am considered an expert, but it is several pages long. Do I just note at the end that I can provide the list, do I add it as an unofficial third page. Do I just leave it off completely?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      How google-able is your name on a scale of Jane Smith (too common to give good search results) to Tangerina Wablesworth (all of your papers will show up on the first page of a google search)? If you’re on the Tangerina Wablesworth end of the spectrum, I think you can leave your publications record off entirely. You could add a bullet point to one/some of your jobs that says “published [number] of papers on [topic].”

      Some options if you’re more on the “Jane Smith” side of the name scale:
      – include the name of one of your papers in a bullet point on your resume (“published A New Method for Cooking Oatmeal in the Journal of Breakfast foods”)
      – include a link to your LinkedIn profile on your resume, and have your publications record posted on your LinkedIn profile

      Overall, I wouldn’t worry too much about including “proof” on your resume. The “proof” will come during your interviews, when you can provide good examples of doing XYZ and writing about ABC that show you know what you’re talking about.

    2. BellStell*

      Can you put it in a section called publications and write it like this:

      Publications
      • ResearchGate/website etc list of publications (link)
      • Lead Author on xx number of publications
      • impact metrics
      • Publications relevant to this role (links of maybe 5?)

      1. the cat's pajamas*

        You could make an online document, such as Google docs that is public, then make a tiny url with bitly or a similar service, then add a line at the end like “See full list of publications at *link*.”

        If you use LinkedIn publicly, you could list them there and point to that instead.

        1. AFac*

          If you’ve got an ORCID, you could just put your number. It’s a little shorter than a link to Google Scholar, and prevents being mistaken for someone with the same name.

    3. Pentapus*

      scientist, in the private sector. I do something like
      Publications: X number of publications. Full list available on request.

      no one has ever requested it, but I have a unique name, so google scholar will find most of them.

      1. Mad Scientist*

        This was going to be my recommendation as well! Maybe if there are a couple that are particularly relevant or impressive, including a short list could make sense, depending on the job. But it’s kinda like references. If they want to know, they’ll ask. No need to include it on a resume.

        1. Storm in a teacup*

          This is what I’ve done!
          I have section on my CV called ‘research experience’ where I have single sentence summary of the type of research experience I have (including having been a peer reviewer for a couple industry medical journals) and then state ‘a list of publications is available on request’. If relevant to the role I may list 1-2 key ones.
          I like the idea of using a link to something like research gate

        2. noncommitally anonymous*

          What I did recently was put “over 30 invited seminars, highlighting 3” and then list those as being the most impactful.

    4. HR Exec Popping In*

      I recommend including it as a separate document. Employers hiring someone like you would want to see the list of publications. They are the equivalent of a marketing candidate’s brand portfolio. Good luck!

    5. Wellie*

      You should probably leave it off entirely. You will need to develop some judgement around job descriptions and employers to determine who will care and who won’t, but 9 times out of 10, nobody will care.
      Source: am a science PhD in the private sector

      1. Mercury*

        I’m a science PhD in the private sector as well and the kind of jobs I have done (and will continue to do) will never care about my publication record. 9 times out of 10 sounds too low LOL!

        There are some private sector jobs that do care about that stuff, like lab or R&D jobs, I know people in those jobs. Some value academic contacts even. Even if you never work in the lab because you’re a department director or something, these jobs might expect at least a summary of publication record (and obviously any patents).

    6. A Significant Tree*

      I had a section at the end of my resume called “Selected Publications” and just listed my top 4 (peer-reviewed, first author, different topics to show range), but I was able to fit the whole resume on 2 pages. I don’t know how useful it was generally, but I did have at least one colleague from my interview panel who mentioned reading one of my listed papers.

      I’d also say, check the language of the job description. If the JD mentions publishing/presenting/communicating findings, esp. to external audiences or stakeholders, then I would definitely highlight your publications in a bigger way (not the whole list, maybe, but a bigger mention).

  75. schweetie*

    I’m an e-resources/systems librarian and I’m feeling pretty overwhelmed with what feels like untenably fractured attention span due to having to constantly filter, pivot, monitor online information updates in my field, while ALSO resisting temptation to avoid random internet browsing when I get bored/frustrated. Are there any jobs that pay decently (e.g., at least $60k with health insurance benefits) that don’t require any or hardly any time on the internet? I want a job where I can settle in to states of flow and not be constantly jumping to check and refresh my inbox.

    1. Anon for this One*

      I’m currently working as a contractor in HR for a major bank and am blocked from almost all websites outside the bank’s own infrastructure. It’s the sort of BS job David Graeber describes in his famous article, so no vocational awe whatsoever but would almost certainly pay more than $60k.

  76. Eggstra Anonymous*

    I sell baby chickens.

    Our weekly shipment of 300 birds usually takes 4-5 days to sell.

    We are almost sold out in *two hours*

    This is only the second shipment, the hatchery is already limiting orders, and our competitors’ supplier is rumored to have cut off orders completely because they got a big industrial order.

    send help

      1. Eggstra Anonymous*

        People are freaking out about the price of eggs, not realizing that it’s way more expensive (and difficult) to raise chickens…

        We sold out of egg layers completely shortly after I posted, but only one person all day bought any meat birds.

    3. Hyaline*

      Oh noooo that sounds like a LOT! I raise chickens and ordered my usual chick refresh ages ago…and when I perused the hatchery website today for funsies saw that they’re sold out until summer now. My chickiebabies are still supposed to arrive tomorrow, but if they don’t I’m going to have to break out my incubator and hatch out little backyard mongrels myself!

      1. Eggstra Anonymous*

        One good thing about selling out so fast is there’s less time for people to impulse buy “because they’re so cute”. I think today there was only one person who had never had chickens before and wasn’t super prepared.

        But I have a feeling that chick day is only going to get more like the Hunger Games as people get frustrated (and still refuse to special order so they’re guaranteed birds)

  77. learnedthehardway*

    Recruiter here – I’m seeing an odd trend of people putting only their first name on their resume. What on earth is up with this?!??!

    Sometimes, the last name is included in the email address – making it utterly pointless to omit it from the document.

    Other times, the last name is entirely absent. This is a) irritating for me, and b) difficult for HRIS systems to handle. And c) hiring managers think the candidate is a bit precious. So, definitely counter-productive if the candidate wants to be seriously considered for the role.

    PSA – unless you are Madonna, Adele, Beyonce, or some other one-named celebrity, use your first AND last name on your resume.

    1. Momma Bear*

      I had someone not put any contact info but never had a resume with half a name. Honestly that’s so basic I wouldn’t take their application seriously.

    2. HonorBox*

      I can’t even imagine getting a resume with just a first name. Agree with your PSA wholeheartedly.

    3. Ann O'Nemity*

      I’ve come across this “advice” as a strategy to mitigate potential discrimination or unconscious bias during the initial screening process—similar to how some ATS remove names before hiring managers review applications. While I understand the reasoning behind it, I find it hard to see how this would work effectively in practice.

    4. Generic Name*

      Ironically, I could probably get away with this. I have a fairly unique first name, and am very well known in my industry in my metro area. I actually changed my last name a while ago, and almost nobody noticed, ha ha.

  78. yet another anonymous academic*

    My boss has been our interim leader and didn’t get the job.

    We are being reorged to boot, and it isn’t being handled well. The new administrator who oversees us now dismisses our input and doesn’t fully understand our work. It’s been demoralizing, this is taking it to the next level.

    I think they are trying to push the current leader out. They chose someone from the outside who seems like a good fit personality wise but has no direct experience in what we do. I’m going to wait and see how it goes, and it’s depressing to witness. My boss is one of the best supervisors I’ve ever had, and I’m expecting them to leave.

    If the new person turns out to be awful, I don’t expect to be able to leave anytime soon anyways, given the state of the world… “waves hands at everything”
    I’m not sure higher ed will still be viable in the near future and not sure what kinds of jobs I could pivot to. Ideas and comiseration welcome.

    1. Momma Bear*

      1. Take a look at your resume, not just roles but skills.
      2. Be ready to start applying.
      3. Keep in touch with that manager and follow them if you can if they leave.

  79. Sarah K*

    Okay so I’m a proofreader, and I’ve absolutely had it with this VP, Ed. Everyone waits and waits for the documents we need from his team (Ed is not my manager). Finally, they’re sent to me like a hour before the project needs to be off to the client. These are dense, long documents, many thousands of words with complicated formatting. I’ll be working on them for literally 10 minutes, and then this guy will start shouting at me from his cubicle that I need to speed up. Or come over to my desk and passive aggressively tell me what time it is (I know what time it is, there’s a clock on my computer). Or sending general “Folks, project deadline is in X minutes, please hurry up” messages to the Slack that are very obviously directed at me and my team. He doesnt shout or order around the researchers or the software developers or any of the more “professional” people on our staff—it’s only ever us proofreaders he treats this way. And what’s more, a few of the people on his team have seen him doing this all the time and gotten the impression that they can/should be doing it too, so even when Ed is out I sometimes now have his random junior employees coming over and ordering me to speed up my work.

    Any advice for how to respond to this guy? My manager is very hands-off, works remotely and never talks to our team, so I’m not sure he would be any help (plus I’ve heard he’s buddies with Ed, so…), and we don’t have real HR. I’m honestly so tempted to just quit every time this happens, and I am starting to look at other jobs but it’s slow going and I can’t afford to go unemployed right now.

    1. Rick Tq*

      Start job hunting, Ed is an ass and isn’t going to change.

      If the project manager doesn’t make the internal deadline at least one day before the actual due date you will never be given enough time to do a proper and thorough review and edit.

      If Ed is the project manager too get out as quickly as you can.

      1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

        Yeah, they are setting their own projects up for failure. I’ve seen this kind of contempt for language skills in tech before and it’s so weird. None of that precious coding is worth a bean if the documentation and UX don’t use effective communication.

        Finding a new job will take time, but maybe you can use the fact that you’re looking to soothe yourself through the moments when people are behaving badly?

    2. PinkBanana*

      could you not raise it with your boss anyway?

      also what are you saying when they come try to rush you? I would reply with something like “It arrived 10 minutes ago so we only just started it. It requires time to be completed. If you want it sooner than you should have sent it sooner. Your interrupting is not speeding it up.” And something similar when they send slack messages.

      or could you get approval from your manager to say something before they do? like the day before send a message saying deadline on this is x and it still hasn’t been received to us.

      It sounds like at the moment you are letting them wait until the last minute and then it looks bad on you. If you draw attention to it more or give people timeline context than any reasonable person would know it is them and not your team that’s the issue.

      1. Board Member*

        I would absolutely raise and document it with my boss (“11,000 word 90 page document was sent to me at 5:50 with a 6PM due date.”) Even if they’re hands off, they need to understand when a department they oversee is being set up to fail. And this isn’t something you have the ability to fix on your own since it sounds like Ed is much more senior to you. Also I find documenting it will make you feel better on its own as this kind of situation can quickly make you feel like *you’re* the crazy one.

    3. The Pet from the Resume*

      Tell Ed or whoever that I just got this document 10 minutes ago; I need X minute to proofread.

      Set up standard turn around times. You need X hours for X words/pages. And then tell everyone of your turnaround times.

  80. Accounting Resumes*

    I had a Robert Half recruiter tell me to change my resume to be much more job-description-like and list every type of accounting/bookkeeping task I’ve ever done, rather than summarizing the tasks and trying to describe accomplishments. I can see the upside to this for a staff accountant with just a few years of experience. Am I/this recruiter correct in thinking that the “Alison”/accomplishments-based resume is less of a thing in the earlier years of an accounting career?

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Not that I’m aware of, though as an accountant you do need to provide enough to identify what your experience is in (AP, receivables, auidit, tax, etc). Robert Half does a lot of temping, so they may be trying to make it easier for them to get you temp roles. I’ve never much liked working with them. Source: am cpa.

    2. Mid*

      I think a lot of companies want very specific duties or experience with very specific programs sometimes, so listing that can be helpful. Like, if they need someone who can handle international tax filings, they don’t want someone who has only done personal finance. It’s a broad field!

      I wouldn’t change your resume for what you submit to companies on your own, but I would amend your resume for this recruiter.

  81. Be the Change*

    My org is doing some extremely clumsy personnel-cutting that has led to one of my team members being personally hurt. Not financially damaged, but personally insulted, embittered, enraged, etc. They burst into a stream of cussing, slammed the door, and walked out still cussing. I’m not angry at the team member, I just…wish it hadn’t gone down this way. In an environment of enormous budget cuts and lots of stress, our org has a pattern of having long-term people leave on very very sour notes. It’s extra bad this year, seems like. Any ideas for, I don’t know, finishing the day? I should probably move some work along but if my team isn’t “that important” maybe not?

    1. WellRed*

      Your last sentence changes the whole tone of this for me. Without more context, sounds like you’re taking it personally as well. Take what’s left of the day and leave work.

  82. anonymous for this*

    Here’s a literally academic question about how to finesse something on my CV:

    I am neither ABD nor PhD because I successfully defended (and published) my dissertation but never claimed my PhD, initially due to inability to pay outstanding debt to university, then because I shifted out of academia and didn’t need it, and now because it’s been 15 years, my committee chair has died, and I have no idea where to begin or if it would be worth it.

    I’ve published a couple of books with non-academic presses, at least a dozen chapters in edited volumes published by academic presses, and numerous journal articles. Now I’m working on a proposal for an academic press, which I have to accompany with a CV. No problem, except that I cannot figure out the wording to put where that degree (or lack thereof) would be listed in the education section. The last time I needed a CV, I had just defended and still expected to claim the degree. Now, I can’t say PhD because I never claimed it. I can’t say ABD because I did, in fact, finish and defend the dissertation. A CV is not the place for a lengthy explanation. Any ideas?

    1. Rick Tq*

      Is the debt still outstanding? If you’ve paid it off over the years I’d think you would be able to claim your diploma.

    3. Reba*

      maybe “dissertation accepted” or “passed” or something? I worry that anything odd around it will make readers suspect you failed the defense or something went wrong otherwise.

      Since you say published, are you in Europe or the UK? maybe disregard my advice if so, I’m not sure how it would read in contexts outside north america.

      so it could look like
      2009 – PhD dissertation accepted, Fried Rice University
      2004 – MA, Fried Rice University
      2002 – BA, Glass Noodle College

      I agree with contacting the university. If it’s not too difficult, I think it would be worth resolving this, just to deal with this particular issue!

  83. good luck spinning all that straw into gold, doris*

    Nearly a year into my honestly pretty toxic job (yes, I know, but I have a big resume gap and my only reference outside of my current workplace died suddenly a few weeks before they hired me here) and I have, I think???? weathered an insane office politics situation where a task I had been doing was repeatedly disrupted over the course of 2 months and then abruptly taken away from me and given to someone else while the whole time no one would give me actionable feedback about what was wrong with my performance beyond “not fast enough.” To cut a long story as short as possible:

    My predecessor Doris and her new supervisor Carol are work besties. I have gotten very behind on a task my boss hasn’t been letting me do, and for the past few months whenever Doris and Carol and I are at lunch Carol asks me pointed questions about the task and Doris brags about how much better she was at this task than I am and how she would never let this happen while I sit there awkwardly and try to make polite conversation.

    Since mid-January, roughly every two weeks, Carol and the mostly-absent head of this department have abruptly announced that this task is being divided up and the workflow is being restructured. Nothing we do is enough to pacify Carol, who seemed especially taken aback this Monday, when at our weekly meeting I gave hard numbers showing how much better we were doing, and that if we were allowed to continue this way we could probably be caught up soon, with the exception of the stuff having to do with nonresponsive/disappeared/dead clients. I expressed gratitude for the help I had received and tried to give credit where it was due and she just looked nonplussed. What I didn’t put together until recently was how much better the numbers were WITHOUT Doris helping, and how much worse they got every time Carol tried to shove Doris into the picture.

    Well, the next day the task was, piece by agonizing piece, taken away from me and the others and transferred over to Doris. At first all three higher-ups behind this and Doris claimed she was just going to help me with a part of it she’s good at for a few weeks (while Doris criticized everything we’d been doing that had helped us work faster and said it was slowing us down) but over the course of Wednesday and yesterday Doris kept asking me to give her more and more of it “just for organizational purposes,” until she finally emailed my direct supervisor, asking him to confirm he wanted the task to be entirely transferred over to her, and he said “yes, just like we talked about.”

    I was really terrified I was going to lose my job at this point, since all three of my superiors AND DORIS had apparently been lying to me about Doris “just helping with part of it” for a while, and many of my other tasks have been taken away from me to work on this one specifically. In general feedback about me has been pretty glowing except for this one task, but I worried that Carol thought I was dangerously incompetent or something. I also found out through the grapevine that allegedly my most helpful coworker in clearing out the backlog is someone Carol has actively been trying to get fired!

    Anyway, several of my coworkers noticed how distressed I was (I hate this, I really tried to avoid it, but I was mildly weepy all day) and they were like “oh, that’s just Carol. Every now and then she does this kind of thing so that Doris can look like a hero. Don’t worry about it. You work harder than Doris and people like you a lot more; we’re not sure why Carol is like this.” So that’s. fun. My fellow support staff have been universally like “yeah, it’s super weird but what are you going to do, that’s just Carol,” and my superiors have expressed puzzlement that I might ever be concerned about any of this.

    I am absolutely furious that I’ve been jerked around like this. (I am leaving stuff out — I’ve had external/family stress going on too during this time, and there are things Doris and Carol did that were really hurtful that I haven’t gone into.) Doris and Carol are going to get CYA emails after every work conversation from now on, and Doris (who was, I think in earnest, trying to be friends with me outside of work) is going to get a regular old “no” now instead of half a dozen soft nos when she tries to engage with me outside of work.

    (I feel a little sorry for Doris, because for reasons I haven’t gone into, I genuinely think she’s just socially incompetent, but I’m still furious with her and she burned that bridge to the ground whether she meant to or not. I also feel sorry for Doris because it’s come out that apparently she’s not just supposed to do this task alone for a few weeks — she has a deadline to FINISH all of it in that time, including the stuff with the dead/disappeared/nonresponsive clients.)

    1. good luck spinning all that straw into gold, doris*

      Aaand I just realized I forgot to ask the actual questions, which are:
      1. if jobsearching right now isn’t feasible, what should I be doing to keep this from happening to me again?
      2. specifically, the idea of getting handed back the project from Doris and then having to do this all over again the next time Carol decides she needs a project is honestly making me want to cry. I don’t want to cry at the meeting where inevitably Doris doesn’t get this all done in a week, becomes busy once more, and they tell her to hand it back to me. is this leadership just hopelessly horrible? they have higher-ups (this is a firm structure, and the guy in charge of this division is a partner, but not a head partner) but I have already had to talk to them this year about something my boss was doing with the billing that was CLEARLY incorrect, could have gotten us in trouble, and he wouldn’t listen to me about it. They were supportive then but I don’t want to be the person who’s always bringing a problem to them, and their communication was ALSO absolutely awful and made my life worse even though they were trying to fix the problem.

      1. Mid*

        1. I’d try to stop blaming Doris, it sounds like she’s just as much a pawn in the office games as you are. It also sounds like she wasn’t trying to take this project away from you, and she might have even been trying to see if she could only take part of it and was being forced to take it all. I also wouldn’t say you need to socialize with her outside of the office, but it actually might help to be warmer and friendlier with her in the office at least, away from Carol. Try to separate the two in your head.
        2. Try to take it less personally. I know it feels personal! It’s your job, of course it’s going to feel personal. But, all evidence points towards this not being about you at all, it’s about Carol’s desire to apparently sow chaos, not your abilities. Everyone has assured you it’s just the way Carol is, so believe them.
        3. Can you get a list of background projects you can work on? Like little things that are low priority but need to be done sometime that you can use to fill out your time when things are slower, so if your workload eases, you have things to do? Are there trainings or other development things you can do? Other teams you can work with? Process documentation? Try to find other things that are fulfilling at work so you don’t feel so tied up in this one project.

  84. poplar*

    I’m looking for advice on how to prevent a difficult co-worker from getting to me. This co-worker, Spike, was briefly acting as the head of my group, after our boss took a promotion. It went very very badly, and due to the nature of my position I bore the brunt of Spike’s bad behavior. I’m trying not to turn this into a rant but some highlights: trying to take over products he didn’t understand and didn’t have authority over, refusing to admit to mistakes or not knowing something to the extent that he’d outright lie instead, becoming aggressive when people disagree with him. On paper Spike was by far the most obvious candidate to become the new boss, but it went to someone quite unexpected instead ( the only other applicant). Spike’s bad behavior has never been acknowledged by him, or senior management and my attempts to discuss it with him go nowhere as he’s singularly interested in winning the argument, rather than resolving issues. His behavior is improved, although he still has no tolerance for my disagreeing with him (even on the most inconsequential things) and is still trying to throw weight around that he doesn’t have. I’m finding it really hard to get past the way he treated me when he was group lead, and the fact that no one in management has ever acknowledged how out of line he was. How can I get to the point where I can just roll my eyes like most other people do when he says something uninformed about my work, or is just generally rude?

    1. Roland*

      > Spike’s bad behavior has never been acknowledged by him, or senior management

      I wouldn’t be so sure that’s true. They didn’t give him the promotion that you thought would be obviously granted, and his behavior has improved. Both could be the result of someone telling him “you aren’t getting the job and here’s why”.

      I’d just tell yourself that, even though they’s no way to verify it. His bad behavior literally cost him a job – he already lost! Feel free to metaphorically roll your eyes along with everyone else instead of wasting brain space on him.

  85. Robert Oster Fire and Ice*

    How often do you use external data analytics consultants at work? I’ve heard conflicting info on whether the field is non-existent or vibrant, and traditional applications are coming up dry where I’d normally only need to apply to 3-5 jobs to get 1-2 to the offer stage. I’d also be appreciative for info on fields needing skilled analytics folks!

  86. Make It Make Sense*

    I need help in making something make sense.

    My manager allowed me the opportunity to figure out the schedules of llama trainings. The llamas get these schedules every day, but they don’t get the same schedule each day. It’s a lot of coordinating between many llamas and a lot goes into the planning of this. If you like puzzles then this task is for you. But it’s very useful to know if you want to climb upward in your career in the llama world.

    My manager gave me all the parameters to work with. Winter training offerings for the llamas, the number of llamas, etc. You name it, it’s in there.

    I made it. I edited it. I cried. I cursed. But it all came out….only for my manager not to use it at all! She claimed she didn’t have the time to give it to the llama trainers to review so she made her own and had them do a quick run through.

    But here’s what I don’t get – I gave her those schedules nearly a month out from when they were needed. She had told me in an email that she wasn’t going to finish the ones she had started because we were going to use mine. And yet what happened? They used hers. She completed hers without telling me and after telling me mine would be used. She told me it wasn’t anything to do with me. She shouldered the blame for the lack of time. But how? If you had time to do that, then didn’t you technically have time to forward mine?

    So when it comes to moving upward, I can say I know the mechanics but I don’t know if my mechanics would actually work.

    Please someone make it make sense so I can trust my manager again.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First advice, then analysis (if you want it).

      Advice part 1: Compare your plan and your manager’s plan. What’s different and what’s the same? Can you figure out why your manager did things differently?

      Advice part 2: Ask your manager. Internet strangers can’t make it make sense. “I know you said that it was because you ran out of time, so did you need more than a month? I noticed [top three major differences], is that part of why the plan I submitted wouldn’t work?” If your manager dodges again, you need to let this go.

      Analysis: It’s rather strange to frame this as “I can’t trust my manager” anymore. You sound overinvested in this work product and work decision. It might be beneficial for you to take some time to step back and re-evaluate why you’re feeling betrayed.

      1. Make It Make Sense*

        Her plan came out flawed and had to be adjusted once the flaws came to light with real people in real time. I’m not saying mine wouldn’t have been flawed. There were differences because two people following the same parameters are still going to have to two different outcomes. One was not necessarily better than the other. Just different.

        Other eyes had seen mine and nothing stood out to them that couldn’t be fixed.

        She repeated the same thing to me in person. Didn’t offer up anything different from the notice I got via the first message. Reason I find this untrustworthy is due to how she went radio silent from when I sent it to her to when she announced they were using hers. Before that any changes were conveyed to me to adjust. Then suddenly nothing. No feedback. Nothing. And it’s not the first time where follow through lapsed. It was just disheartening to have a professional development opportunity in which I was led to believe that I would develop the project to the end and then nothing.

        And just a side note – this happened last year. It still stings. Yes I know that’s on me. But when I want to move upward in my career how do I explain getting this experience without knowing results? I did more than shadow, but my end product was not used.

    2. RagingADHD*

      I think saying you can’t trust your manager is a bit of an overreaction.

      This sounds like a situation where the document was quite complicated and, because it was your first time preparing it, she wanted to go over it with a fine-tooth comb before sending it to the team for their feedback. Maybe that’s what she ran out of time for – a detailed review to her comfort level.

      Not knowing the industry or the team dynamics, it’s also possible that there are nuances or “hot button” issues she did not remember to explain to you and that aren’t documented. Like, if Trainer B always complains and pouts about having to follow Trainer D, so everyone is happier if they’re kept apart – stuff like that.

      If these schedules have to be done regularly, surely you’re going to get another opportunity. In terms of advancement, being able to say you’d done scheduling exactly one time isn’t that much stronger than saying you had assisted with developing the schedule.

      1. Make It Make Sense*

        Without divulging more, follow through isn’t her strong suit and this was a huge one for me to have her drop the ball – for whatever reason. I can see why you’d think it’s an overreaction, but there’s been a build up.

        The team is not allowed to refuse who they follow, and they may not follow the same person each day as they may not have the same routine each day. So that wouldn’t be an answer for here.

        1. Mid*

          It sounds like it might be time for you to leave this team, actually! This event took place a year ago, and it’s still upsetting you. You’d said that there’s a build up, and I think it’s of resentment. You don’t think your manager follows through and that you can’t trust her. It sounds like you should start looking to move on—either to a different team, or a different company.

        2. RagingADHD*

          I didn’t mean the example to be so literal. Just that there may be factors to consider that go beyond the documented parameters, and she could have realized after the fact that she needed to check for them.

          Even if she did drop the ball in some way, I still think characterizing it as a breach of trust is attributing deliberate deception or malice where it’s unlikely that was the case.

          Offering you the opportunity to work on the schedule isn’t actually some kind of blood oath to use your work product. It’s a growth opportunity for you to learn and practice — which you still got the benefit of, regardless of whether it was used.

          I didn’t see your comment that it was a year ago at the time I posted. Has there not been an opportunity to do the schedule again? Have you asked about doing it again?

    3. Brevity*

      This is twenty-six years of work experience talking: it’s not worth tying yourself into knot trying to understand, because there might not be any understandable logic to it.

      Boy, does THAT suck to hear. Sorry. I get where you’re coming from, I really do. You did a task really well, you did it better than she did, therefore your effort should be used, and it’s not. It defies logic.

      That’s the lesson: sometimes people do things that defy logic. It’s not so much that they’re untrustworthy — I doubt your manager is actively trying to hurt your work or get you fired — but they will make decisions that make no sense, no matter how much context you have. There’s nothing else to say.

      “BUT….” believe me, I get it. It’s tough to accept. And it’s very easy to then start thinking, well, then why should I EVER make ANY effort AT ALL if she’s just going to IGNORE it…. but don’t let yourself go down that road. There is value in what you accomplished, even if it wasn’t used. Keep that knowledge in mind, and let go of the rest. You won’t face this situation very often, but it will happen again. Better to learn how to recognize and accept totally illogical situations now, than waste all kinds of time and mental effort on something that will never fit a logical path.

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Your long resentment and complete loss of trust seems way out of proportion to what happened:
      She made a decision, probably a poor one, but managers make hundreds of decisions and some will be mistakes. She took the blame and likely didn’t realise it was such a big deal to you then – and certainly wouldn’t dream you’d still be stewing a year later.

      If your concern is how to advance in your career, ask her in your next 1-1 what you need to do to be considered for promotion, or to get bigger projects (if you want to use them on your resume), whatever you want.

      Unless/ until you get another job, you need to work with her to develop your career, so do draw a line under this episode and move on. Try not to get emotional about work; it’s just what you do to pay the bills, not a holy cause.

    5. Jen*

      It does suck when your work doesn’t get used. Of course, if this becomes a pattern it’s probably not a job you want to stay in for your own morale. But if it’s one time, I think the reason could possibly have been that your manager had some requirements around the schedules that she didn’t put into words before you did all the work. And then she saw what you’d spent all your time on and realized she hadn’t let you know something vital about how they were supposed to be set up. So she didn’t want to bother you and did it herself. But she still values your work.

      About moving upward, ask her about it, then put into practice what she suggests.

    6. STEM Admin*

      I often give my staff high-level guidance, then massively modify their efforts before sending the work out to our clients. 1) they don’t usually have all the background info – not deliberately, but I often don’t think to tell them random details because the end product in my head wouldn’t impinge on that factor anyway. 2) it’s still helpful to me for them to come do a first pass – even if it’s to help me clarify what I DON’T want. 3) the staff member who is most likely to work on a project and have me majorly edit has taken to approaching it as a first draft to help me clarify the scope and outline, and taught other staff to take that approach as well. It’s helped all of us to have a better perspective on what we’re doing when we’re working on new projects.

    7. Expectations*

      this happens all the time. whine, scream, etc for a short time then get over it. or change to a role where you’re not creating content. I’ve had bosses not tell folks they assigned a task to me, those other folks make a plan, and the first I hear about it is being told this is the plan for X even though I spent the last X days/weeks working on a plan for the same thing. My current boss has a two step process he sometimes uses – this is great, I love it, great job followed some time later by I decided we didn’t want to explain all that after all do I cut it/cut it down to a few lines/made it a single slide. That’s life. And if someone feels like they’ve been put on the spot if/when you point out what happened they usually get defensive.

  87. Robin*

    So, I’m applying for pretty much my dream job with my dream company. A few years ago I applied for not-quite-my-dream-job with the same company. Should I mention my previous application in my cover letter this time, along with why I think I’m better for THIS job NOW than I was for THAT job THEN, in terms of both why I’m a better match for this particular position, and what relevant skills I’ve improved since?

    1. Robin*

      (Argh. Apologies for the duplicate comment, Alison; this belongs as a reply to my comment above here. Feel free to delete the top-level one posted at 6:54pm.)

      Relevant, but I forgot to mention: last time, I got to the final five interviewees out of high-triple-figures applicants, apparently. (But this time there will be a lot more applicants—the industry has been laying off people in this field like crazy, and the company got so many applications in the first few days that they’ve already moved the closing date up by a week—so that’s far from a guarantee I’ll get that far again.)

    3. Storm in a teacup*

      No don’t mention it. It’s definitely something you will have thought about than they will.

  88. Robin*

    Relevant, but I forgot to mention: last time, I got to the final five interviewees out of high-triple-figures applicants, apparently. (But this time there will be a lot more applicants—the industry has been laying off people in this field like crazy, and the company got so many applications in the first few days that they’ve already moved the closing date up by a week—so that’s far from a guarantee I’ll get that far again.)

  89. Faye*

    Has anyone had any experience “managing” people who are technically in a higher position with more seniority than you? Is this normal?

    By some strange circumstances surrounding layoffs and budgeting, the people I work with have been shifted around, and as a result, I am now the person with the most knowledge of XYZ product.

    The recently joined coworkers are above me in both title and pay–for example, job level III vs my job level II–and are not familiar with XYZ. I am being tasked with not only onboarding them to the project but also in continuing with the management of it. To be vague, this means organizing our tasks, deciding our priorities, being the point of contact for questions, attending different levels of meetings, etc.

    I spoke with *my* manager, and she’s fine with this arrangement. She says it makes the most sense and knows I can do it. I agree with her.

    However, I can’t help but feel like I’m second guessing myself a lot lately. I don’t know if it’s because I’m young compared to a lot of the people at this company in general, or what, but I worry my coworkers are thinking I’m not fit for the role somehow. I also worry that they find the arrangement strange?

    2. Storm in a teacup*

      Correct me if I’m wrong but it sounds like you’re managing the project not the actual new employees? If so, completely normal and you can stop over thinking it :)

    3. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      My first job was a DC engineering/consulting company that was matrix managed. And we hired 2 kinds of people – fresh grads and retired colonels. So it was completely normal for me, 25 years old with 18 months of experience under my belt, to manage the retired Green Beret who contributed 15 hours a week as a subject-matter expert on my project.

      Stop looking at everything as linear. My former colonel knew a lot about how to interact with the customer, the history of a particular DoD program, etc. But he didn’t know how to program in the language that the customer asked for, whereas I did. Etc.

  90. Jake Peralta*

    I have an interview on Monday for a job that I’ve been discussing with an external recruiter from a staffing firm. Until a few years ago (way too late in my opinion), I would default to wearing a suit and tie to every interview, because that’s what I was taught to do. Since then, I’ve made it a habit to ask how to dress for in-person interviews when I was working with an internal or external recruiter, or anyone else not directly involved in the hiring process. I’d say most of the time, I’m told to dress business casual, which I interpret as slacks and a button-up. I’ve also been steered wrong before when being advised to wear a suit (for example: on one occasion, the external recruiter told me to wear a suit and, when I got to the interview, one of them asked me why I was wearing a suit).

    Going back to the interview on Monday, I asked the external recruiter what to wear and he said he’d ask his manager and let me know. He later said, “he (assuming this is his manager) said suit and tie.” I considered asking who the advice came from but ultimately decided not to push the issue with the recruiter. That said, I am considering taking it down a notch- either going suit with no tie or tie with no coat. I haven’t worn a tie in years and wore a suit with no tie for the first time in years to an interview, at the advice of the company’s internal recruiter, last week and didn’t feel particularly comfortable in it. I also researched the company that I’m interviewing with and, from what I’ve seen, their dress code seems pretty casual.

    I’m wondering what anyone’s thoughts are on taking it down a notch. If an internal recruiter had given me this advice, I would feel more inclined to go with it. The position that I’m interviewing for is a step up from my current position but not at all a C-suite executive position.

    I would love to hear people’s thoughts on this.

    1. Wfh4vr*

      Wear a suit or a jacket and tie. If people are so hung up on how you dress then you’ve dodged a bullet.

      1. Jake Peralta*

        If people are so hung up on how you dress then you’ve dodged a bullet.

        Yeah, I tend to think that people who think I should wear a suit and tie to an interview when I wouldn’t be required to do so when working there, only think this because of some rule from 20+ years ago. I’m also admittedly skeptical that the advice is coming from a person who doesn’t work there, assuming the person who told my recruiter that is his manager. I don’t expect that, if I was wearing a suit when arriving at the interview, I would be questioned about it, but that’s only because most interviewers will keep those thoughts to themselves.

    2. Accrual World*

      I had an external recruiter tell me, emphatically, to dress business professional. I showed up in a suit and the whole office was in jeans and hoodies. The typical advice is that it’s better to be overdressed than underdressed, but I’ve had interviewers make a point of emphasizing how casual they are when I’ve been overdressed, so I typically aim for business casual.

      1. InterviewDressCode*

        This seems normal to me? I’ve worked at places where people wear shorts and a tank top to work in the summer but would look strangely at someone who showed up for an interview not wearing at least a jacket/dress slacks/tie or dress/blouse and skirt/formal pant suit.

        I once got a job over several other qualified candidates because, as my boss phrased it, I was the only one who cared enough to wear a suit. If you showed up to interview at any place I’ve worked wearing only business casual it may not be disqualifying but it would be noticed.

        I work in very technical roles, often at the techiest of tech companies.

        Wear a suit or something suit-adjacent regardless of what their day to day dress norms are.

    3. Jen*

      Probably industry dependent but I don’t think you can go wrong wearing a suit and no tie to an interview. Everyone knows you wear a suit to an interview. Unless explicitly told not to by the interviewer.

      Even if everyone else is wearing jeans on casual Friday, I don’t see why people would think it was odd to be wearing a suit. I think this happened to me once actually and someone commented that they felt bad I was wearing a suit, but I got the offer and I didn’t feel strange at all.

      A suit and a tie is probably overkill.

      1. Jake Peralta*

        Everyone knows you wear a suit to an interview. Unless explicitly told not to by the interviewer.

        I both agree and disagree. When dealing with a recruiter, HR person, or someone else not directly involved in making the hiring decision, I think it doesn’t hurt to ask, though I’m not sure if your statement is meant to imply that I shouldn’t. Also, while it’s true that it was the standard at one time to wear a suit to an interview, that standard isn’t universal anymore. Until my interview last week where I wore a suit, it had been about three years since I had done that, though I don’t have a large sample size of in-person interviews from that time period.

        That said, if dealing directly with the hiring manager, I don’t ask. In that case, I typically assume it’s suit and tie unless I find something out that makes me think otherwise.

        I don’t see why people would think it was odd to be wearing a suit.

        That’s what I thought until I was questioned about it by an interviewer, in a place where everyone I saw was dressed business casual. I don’t think this had any part in me not getting the offer, but it’s not something I want to experience again.

        1. Jen*

          It’s possible (very very possible) the interviewer was the weird person for caring about it and most people think a suit is best. Everyone’s POV is just their own POV and some people have unusual ones.

          Again, maybe this is industry dependent so in your industry you’re not supposed to wear a suit, but in that case a good recruiter would know this (and it would also be something that comes up in google searches).

          Heck, Trump just withdrew Ukraine aid partially because of not wearing a suit, I’ll bet.

          1. Jake Peralta*

            My profession is different in that I’m not confined to any one industry. I’ve also had at least one recruiter tell me (not during the interview but before it) that he thought a suit wasn’t appropriate for an interview, but it could have been just for that particular company. There was actually a post on this blog from about two years ago where Alison stated that the convention around suits at interviews changed, though it seemed to be geared towards women. That said, I don’t think most recruiters would be telling me to dress business casual for interviews if most people thought a suit was best.

    4. Bart*

      I am curious why you asked the recruiter if you already knew how formally you wanted to dress.

      1. Jake Peralta*

        I asked because it doesn’t matter what my preference is. But in this case, the recruiter got the response from his manager (unless he meant to say it came from someone else, but I doubt that), so I don’t know if he was going on actual knowledge, his own personal preference, or something else. For what it’s worth, I’m not under the impression that wearing a suit and tie to this interview would be the worst thing in the world, but I would prefer not to wear a suit and tie if it’s not 100% expected.

  91. Wfh4vr*

    I don’t understand the problem. Ask the person how they want to be addressed, and do so.

  92. I can’t think of a fun name*

    I am updating my resume and need some input. I am a middle school teacher and plan to leave my current school at the end of the year: For anonymity sake, let’s say I teach art. I teach art at a private middle school during the regular school year, and then over the summer I teach art for a summer program. The program is not connected to the school. It runs all summer, and each week has a different theme. There is usually enough overlap in the themes that I end up working 2-4 weeks every summer. For example, I might teach painting during the fine arts week, set painting for the theatre week, and then teach painting again for the general creative arts week. (Again, I’m just using art here as a placeholder.) They also have weeks focused around things like sports, creative writing, science, etc. that I don’t participate in. I have never worked more than 4 weeks in one summer.

    My issue is that these weeks are not consistent from one year to the next. Before the schedule is made, all the teachers provide their availability for the summer, and the schedule is made to best accommodate everyone. This is great, but it makes it hard to list the dates on my resume. I can’t just list something like “First 3 weeks of July: 2021-2024” since the exact weeks AND the number of weeks changes from year to year. I also can’t list it like “July 1-5, 8-12, and August 2-6 2021; June 23-27 and July 20-24 2022; etc” because that is confusing and chaotic.
    I love the work I’ve done for this program, and think the accomplishments I’ve had really add to my resume, but I have no idea how to include it correctly. Thanks for any help you can give!

    1. Not That Jane*

      I would honestly just say summer 2020, summer 2021, summer 2022, etc. or even “summers 2020-2024.” I don’t think the exact # of days or weeks is as important as giving a general sense of time frames and length of tenure with the same program. Assuming you’re applying to teaching roles, I think principals will generally get the gist of that :)

  94. Carrot Cake*

    I work in a restaurant as a supervisor (or low level manager). The role is basically running the day-to-day. All the supervisors have some sort of additional duty, mine for example is interviewing and hiring. Some of the other supervisors do liquor ordering, inventory, scheduling, etc.

    Recently, one of our servers, Kayla, approached our manager about becoming a supervisor as well. However, all current supervisors got their positions because management saw managerial and leadership qualities in us when we were servers, gave us training, and when we proved successful officially gave us the role and pay raise.
    Kayla is an overall really good server and does her job well. I hang out with her outside of work and she a good person and friend. But there are a few reasons that she was never really considered for a supervisory role:
    -She tends to complain a lot at work. About customers, co-workers, politics, etc.
    -She’s had a couple negative reviews written about her service. We also get mystery shoppers and she’s had a couple bad scores before.
    -She is a single mom, so she can’t work any evenings or weekends, which are the busiest times for a restaurant.
    -All the mentioned extra duties that come with the role needs to sometimes do a bit of work outside of working hours. For example: I might reply to interviewees or new hires off the clock when they message me with questions. Kayla is a busy mom and has no time or interest doing anything work related outside of her work hours.

    Kayla told our manager that if she is offered the position and title, she will work hard when she’s on the job, which I believe she will do. But a part of me also believes that she should already be behaving or acting in a way a leader should in order to be considered for the job. She said she needs the title change and pay raise first in order to do any training or act any differently.

    My manager asked me my opinion, and I told her what I said here. But at the same time I don’t want to deny her a promotion because of a few bad reviews and her inflexible schedule which could be discriminatory since she is a parent. But I just don’t see that “it” factor that would make a good manager. I feel torn as she is not only a colleague, but a friend.

    1. Indolent Libertine*

      It’s not discriminatory to not consider someone for a promotion if they have made it clear already that they are unwilling or unable to do some of the essential duties of the job. Complaining about coworkers shows a lack of discretion that a supervisor has to have, and that alone would make her a definite no for me. The off the clock work is a little problematic- nobody, including you, should be putting in any unpaid hours unless you’re exempt which I doubt. But if the nature of the job is that it requires some availability apart from your on site hours, and she’s made clear that she won’t do that, again that’s kind of a declaration of being unwilling to do some of the job, it seems to me.

    2. Magdalena*

      If she’s constantly complaining about her coworkers she should not be given any power over other people. Please don’t to it to her coworkers. She won’t magically change when she’s promoted. Right now she wants something from y’all (promotion and a raise) and this is most likely her best behavior. If she’s promoted her incentive to impress management is partly gone, and seeing like you’re considering promoting her despite so many problems your management might not have the spine to hold her accountable when she turns out to be difficult to work for.

    3. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      if she is offered the position and title, she will work hard when she’s on the job….. She said she needs the title change and pay raise first in order to do any training or act any differently.

      She doesn’t sound a particularly good employee, considering also the negative reviews, the secret shopper scores and the complaining.
      Seems like she is putting in the minimum effort she can get away with and this is unlikely to change with a promotion.
      You shouldn’t pay someone more just because you want to help a single mum.

      she can’t work any evenings or weekends, which are the busiest times for a restaurant.

      It’s not discriminatory to rule out someone for this, because a supervisor should be available at the busiest times if need be. Nor is it discriminatory to require someone does more than the bare minimum and for a sustained period before being considered.

      1. Newboomsall*

        She must be a great server to keep her on giving all these challenges. If I had someone with negative reviews from mystery shoppers and who complained all the time I don’t know that being a great server would make up for it.

    4. HonorBox*

      I’m not discounting the fact that she may be a great person outside of work, but promotions tend to happen for those whose actions put them in a position to grow. Nothing you highlight about Kayla shows she’s ready for that. She’s a middle of the road employee. And she’s told you that she can’t be available at times when she might be needed. I’m not even talking about the outside of work hours stuff. Understandably, she can’t work nights or weekends. That doesn’t give your manager much flexibility in making the schedule unless another supervisor only wants to work nights and weekends.

      Telling someone that you’ll work hard when you get the promotion isn’t a good negotiation tactic. As I said above, promotions usually come for those who are already showing that they work hard and do good work.

  95. maimie*

    So, how many final-round interview rejections in a row is… normal? I’ve had five interviews in two years now where I made it to the final round, and didn’t get the job. It wasn’t until this last round of interviewing, where I was an applicant and a finalist for two different positions in the same office, and I didn’t get either one, that I started to think it might be more than a string of bad luck.
    But it’s clearly not my qualifications, because I’m getting interviews every time, and it’s not my interview performance overall, since I’ve been getting to second round! I can’t really tie my individual interview performance to the outcomes, either, like I’m getting nervous or tongue-tied due to the pressure of the final round… in fact, I feel like more often than the second-round interview has gone better!
    And my references aren’t really a common denominator, either. Only two of the interviews got to the reference-checking stage, and as they were two years apart they were mostly a different list!
    I have been in the same job for nearly ten years now, and it’s the first job I’ve held in my field after getting my master’s. That is a bit unusual for my field – usually people are quick to jump at new more prestigious jobs when they’re early-career, so a normal stay is 2-3 years right out of grad school. But I’ve been working hard to specialize in a niche part of the job I’m really passionate about, and I’ve become extremely knowledgeable and relatively well-known. The only reason I’m looking to leave is that I’ve reached the limit on what I can do with my knowledge and ideas within my under-resourced institution, and I’m looking to apply my expertise to greater impact.
    If you made it this far, thanks for reading! I’d appreciate any insights into what I’m doing wrong here, and am happy to elaborate if needed. Also, if this IS normal, I’d love to hear some commiseration… I’m just so exhausted and demoralized!

    1. Alton Brown's Evil Twin*

      I think if you plotted this info from a few thousand people on a graph, it would be so full of noise that ‘normal’ just isn’t a meaningful question. Especially given the time frame you’re looking at.

      A final-round loss 3 years ago has no relation to a final-round loss last month. You’re a different person, the companies you are interviewing with are different, the industry has changed.

  96. RegretGifting*

    I should have posted this on Friday, but was too busy at work.

    As a way to show appreciation for my team of 10’s hard work during last month’s challenging deadlines, I sent each member a $45 DoorDash gift card, paid for personally. I’m honestly bummed that not a single person thanked me. I know gifts are generally given from management to employees, but this lack of response is disheartening, particularly since it was a personal expense. Is it common now for employees not to thank their boss for a gift?

    I always make a point to express my gratitude when I receive a gift from my supervisor. This makes me not want to get gifts again for my team.

    1. Seashell*

      Do you know they actually got them? Do you know they came from you and not some unknown person at the company?

      1. RegretGifting*

        It was sent electronically with a thank you message personalized from me. And I was able to see who received the email.

    2. fhqwhgads*

      Unless you somehow told them it was from you personally – and not the company – they have no reason to know that’s the case.

      1. RegretGifting*

        I checked for that and the service I used has an option to send a thank you back to the sender and listed my name and email address. But it’s possible that they didn’t see that option, though the email that contained the gift card also contained a message thanking them with my name in the signature.

        1. Branch*

          The cues you’re describing wouldn’t make me think my manager paid for them from her personal money; I’d think she used a company budget for them but placed the order herself.

          I’d be delighted to get a meal delivery gift card! It’s imperfect — like most gifts — but I like that it would ease my day rather than adding clutter to my life or just disappearing into a practical need.

    3. Rick Tq*

      Are you sure they even wanted a Door Dash gift certificate? Even when I lived in town I preferred to pick up my food directly from the restaurant, paying for delivery didn’t make sense. Now I live farther out and those deliver services aren’t even an option.

      When my company offers to send out DD gift cards I push back and request an Amazon one so I have something I can use.

      1. RegretGifting*

        That’s a good point. It could have been a gift that wasn’t wanted, but it just feels weird to not even get a thank you etiquette wise.

      2. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

        Most unlikely that none of them could use DoorDash and even those who couldn’t should have thanked you, as it is a reasonable gift to send.
        imo just bad manners

    4. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Bad manners not to thank someone for a gift – and it sounds like they received and realised it was from you personally.

      Gifts were never a thing anywhere I worked, except that when we’d have a team Christmas meal at a restaurant the manager would pay for the first round of drinks (we got separate bills apart from this).
      I think everyone said a brief thanks as soon as he said the round was on him and that would be maybe Eur3 per person, not $45 – you were generous!

    5. Kay*

      Most employees will assume, even if you personalize the note (and you really can’t gracefully say I used my own personal money for this in normal circumstances), that the company is paying for the gift, as the company should. I think this is especially true for something like an emailed gift card. As a side note I personally hate gift cards, especially any that limit me to one place. They are more of a hassle because often you can’t use more than one form of payment and therefore are restricted on what you can actually do with it. Adding to that, depending on just how hard they worked and other factors, to them they may be thinking “I slaved away for a month and that was only worth $45!?”

      You are equating a business transaction with a personal one and you shouldn’t. If you had hand delivered something more personal to each of them (you baked them their favorite banana bread kind of thing) and none of them even said thank you in the moment I can understand it stinging more, but this was an emailed gift card.

      1. Mercury*

        Unfortunately I agree. It would sting if I were LW, but I would assume it was given by my manager on behalf of the company, and that maybe all of the managers were doing it for morale. Think about it: if it was actually from the company (via the manager), thanking the manager would come off as kind of weird.

        Like others, I have never used DoorDash. I live in the city and I love takeout but I usually walk to get it. Also because I’m in a big city, $45 wouldn’t cover takeout for me and my spouse, usually our order is $60 and these are just regular neighborhood places. Tacos might be $45, and sandwiches for lunch might be, but not dinner.

        That said I would definitely be grateful for the gift card, but I would regift it (if it’s a code I could share with someone) to someone who uses DoorDash regularly to make their day :)

    6. Jen*

      If you’re not getting much of a response then it does make sense not to do this kind of thing as much… but it was nice of you to get that. I would have liked it.

    7. SunnyShine*

      That was very nice of you and they should have said thanks.

      With saying that, most people assume gifts come from the company. My boss give me gift cards to local cafes, but I have dietary needs and can’t use them.

      In my field, some want their work to be appreciated in other ways, like bonuses, a day of vacation, or pay increases. If your team isn’t paid that well but you just brought them gift cards, it can give the appearance that bosses are overpaid while workers are underpaid. Culture can be a tricky thing.

    8. HonorBox*

      Jumping in late, but I think saying thank you, regardless of where the funds for the gift came from, is appropriate.

      You were very thoughtful in sending the gifts and showing that appreciation. And you spent a heck of a lot of money in doing so. I wouldn’t blame you one bit if this changed how you showed appreciation going forward. I think it is nice to recognize hard work, but maybe next time it is a quick email or hand-written note instead of something with your money attached.

  97. SicktomyStomach*

    Word games!

    I do several crossword puzzles every day, along with other online work games. I do all of the NY Times games – Strands, Wordle, the mini crossword, the daily crossword, Connections, and the Spelling Bee. I also do the Washington Post crossword, and my local paper, Newsday. Anyone have any other word games they like? I am not a Sudoku person, but I love all kinds of word puzzles.

  98. bathroom wars*

    This is one of those, how do I say something/should this be something that I should even bring up?

    A new hire (he’s been here roughly a year and a half) tends to take long bathroom trips daily. This isn’t a problem, I don’t want to police bathroom useage and it doesn’t impact his work. The problems start here: he’s in there he’s on the phone 95% of the time. We know this because we can usually hear him chatting if you walk outside into the hallway. He often walks out of the bathroom still on the phone and hangs up whe he sits at his desk.

    Staff can be on thier phones at thier desk, cell phones or work phones, as long as they aren’t just chatting for hours and get their work done, so I’m not sure if he goes in there just to chat or if it’s just how he … goes to the bathroom?

    In any case, that alone isn’t annoying but we have two single stall bathrooms for our floor and we share it with 2 other departments, so often he’s in there on his phone and there’s a wait to use them (other toliets are not like miles away or anything but I think people don’t want to take a trip to another floor). I think because he’s on his phone, people think he’s just sitting around talking and not using the bathroom. And he might be! But I don’t want to ask him about it. But a few people have made comments about how this is a 10 to 15 minute bathroom phone call break, once a day type of deal (sometimes twice) and it’s taking up prime bathroom useage.

    To be honest, if he’s just going in there to talk, I would like to tell him hey, you can go in the stairwell, or outside if it needs to be private but please don’t occupy a bathroom that people need. But then again… there are other bathrooms? His work gets done, it is sometimes annoying to have to wait for him to return if there’s a question, but I wouldn’t put it on a review or anything. And there is no okay let’s build another bathroom type thing either. No one has “offically” complained about it, mostly like in passing but I don’t want it to become a point of contention later on.

    Any advice?

    1. Retired Vulcan Raises 1 Grey Eyebrow*

      Tell him you don’t police how long anyone uses the phone or the loo, but ask him not to make phone calls there because it is damaging his reputation – explain that people waiting for the loo think the 15 minutes are for the calls.

    2. Jen*

      He’s taking a 15 minute break once or twice a day doesn’t sound like is a big deal. And you have no complaints about his work. If I had a hire that I was happy with their work I would be more than happy to give 15 minute breaks that often, probably more, and anyway there may be some legal requirement to allow these? So the only thing is that other people are making comments about taking a bathroom. I probably would just casually mention to him that a good place to take personal calls on break is the stairwell and see if he picks that up. He may not even realize that’s an option. If not and you get a couple more comments, you can be more direct.

    3. SunnyShine*

      The problem is that there isn’t enough stalls. A 10 to 15 min break isn’t outrageous in a bathroom. While I don’t take that long, a lot do. I also find is concerning that you said it’s annoying to wait until he gets back to ask a question. Everyone deserves breaks, regardless of local laws.

      I don’t think this warrants talking to him about anything. I think it’s more important to escalate to your superiors that the bathrooms need to be expanded or to add on more.

      If you do talk to him, it’s just going to see you in a worse light, especially if you don’t know if he has medical conditions.

    4. Ten lizards in a raincoat*

      I might be unique in this but I feel like it is appropriate to tell him not to take phone calls in the bathroom because it disrupts other people’s bathroom usage. I agree with mentioning a couple other places you can take calls. just be prepared for the possibility his break times will increase rather than decrease.

  99. A Taxing Person*

    The last month has been horrible. The stress, the uncertainty. Two coworkers quit, just from the stress of everything. When we are in the office people start crying for no apparent reason, or for seemingly minor trivial things. Last week we were told that starting tomorrow on Monday, March 10, 2025, we were to all return to the office and that WFH was over. Only there isn’t enough room for everyone to be there all at the same time. We were told that some people might have to work in conference rooms, only there really isn’t all that much room available in the conference rooms either. I’m not sure if they have enough parking spaces for everyone to be there all at once.

    My supervisor just phoned me (a few minutes after noon on Sunday, March 9) to tell me that RTO has been postponed, at least for tomorrow and we will WFH on Monday. Kind of a relief to have the can kicked down the road, even if it is only for a day.

  100. Toulon*

    “people start crying for no apparent reason, or for seemingly minor trivial things“ <— these people are so fragile that they should never have been hired to begin with. Companies want some resiliency.

    1. Jen*

      If this is the federal government, it’s probably not that they’re fragile but that there is the imminent threat of layoffs.

      1. A Taxing Person*

        Thank you, Jen. Unfortunately, we’re not robots. Some the people are a bit fragile, but they do a difficult already stressful job and they don’t need all of the extra stress, drama and disrespect. We have comparatively high rates of turnover, backlogs of work that needs to be done, not enough people to do all the work and in the face of that they are laying people off. I feel like they are lucky when they can get a competent (if emotionally fragile) person who can actually do the work and now they’re getting rid of the people we do have. It doesn’t make any sense and it certainly isn’t improving efficiency.

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