updates: the star employee, HR not keeping up with the law, and more

by Alison Green on March 12, 2025

Here are four updates from past letter-writers.

1. An employee is out to get my star performer, and no one else cares (first update)

I thought it could be good for the folks who were predicting catastrophe with Dave to hear what actually happened. Sometimes situations aren’t ideal but that doesn’t mean doom either.

I respected Tina’s wishes and did not go to HR. Given some of the vehement responses, I did extra legwork with Maria and HR contacts at previous companies in the same industry before making my final decision. Quoting one HR professional when I asked about noting it in Dave’s record in case there is a pattern: “That is not a thing. We aren’t school admins keeping a permanent record in that way. We handle illegal behavior, or actionable behaviors against internal policies. […] That’s it!” Given that Maria and every professional I talked to agreed HR would not do anything with this information and Tina did not want it shared, I did not reach out to HR. I know some folks will probably still disagree, but I’m comfortable I did my due diligence.

Dave is still here and has been a model employee. I had no authority to fire Dave and agree he should have been!

Jen is improving all the time. I think today’s Jen would have fired Dave. Small consolation but I try to see the silver linings. I’m still cautious, but hopeful we can continue to work well together in the coming years.

My team has grown and is doing well. There have been no issues with Dave or anyone else but I also make sure to ask if they are having any issues with staff in our one-on-ones. I’m also getting an award for an idea Tina gave me before this all went down. I offered to have her receive the award instead, but she understandably wanted nothing to do with this department.

Tina is doing amazing! This year she got a max raise, max bonus, 5/5, and got a special bonus as well. Her manager is getting a prestigious global leadership award for the problem Tina solved as well.

Sadly for the company but happily for Tina, she left and moved across the country to live closer to family. She was able to leverage her new salary and recent accomplishments to land a similar high level role at her new company. She seems excited about transitioning to that industry and I’ve let her know I’m happy to be a reference whenever she needs me.

In the end, all the nasty stuff that Dave, Jen, and Sally pulled launched Tina into a higher paying career track. I’m grateful to have worked with her and hope for nothing but the best for her. She deserves to work at a good place with better people than our company offered her.

2. Returning to an office where an estranged friend works (#3 at the link)

I wrote in last fall regarding my return to an office where a former friend, Ashley, with whom I had had a falling out, still worked. You suggested doing nothing and remaining pleasant and professional. I did follow that advice, although I’m not sure any course of action I took or didn’t take would have changed much.

Unfortunately, it started off on the wrong foot from the very first day. I came into the office and started walking down the hallway. Ashley was walking down the hallway from the other end, towards me. She saw me, stopped, turned around, and walked back the way she came. Later that same day, we passed each other in the hall and she didn’t acknowledge me in any way. She just passed me by like she didn’t know me.

I can’t really say that our interactions have been bad because there haven’t been any. We are in the office once per week and she ignores me. We have a Teams group chat and she never reacts to anything I say.

I had hoped that things might change in the new year. But I was recently asked to give a presentation during an in-person meeting about my experience overseas. The meeting agenda was distributed in advance. She came to the meeting. When it was my turn to present, she left.

So I’ve given up any chance of reviving the friendship. We are moving to two days per week in office in March and three days per week in September. Not sure what impact that will have.

As for Stephanie, everything is good there. We talk every day and it’s like I never left.

Thank you for giving me a chance to put some of my thoughts and feelings on paper and be heard. Even though this situation is my fault, it’s still incredibly frustrating.

3. Invited to be a guest speaker and then blown off (#4 at the link)

I did somewhat take your advice (in combination with some advice from a friend of mine)! I ended up emailing that professor the next day to very politely share my feelings. I know you said I didn’t owe him anything, but I’m the kind of person that needs to speak up when I’ve been impacted by someone else. I basically told him that I was disappointed when the tech issue arose and no time was taken to try to resolve it as I had spent time preparing the dialogue and stepped away from work to be present (this event was in the middle of the workday). I informed him that alum do not have access to authorized school Zoom accounts and that it would be helpful to test out meeting connections to avoid this happening to guest speakers in the future.

The prof was very apologetic in his response and explained that he hadn’t anticipated alum having trouble accessing the meeting. I got the impression he thought the tech issue was on my end and didn’t think my absence was a big deal until I had said something. He offered to have me speak at his next scheduled class, but I kindly declined. I knew that he had initially only scheduled one class for speakers and that he was accommodating me with a second class to make up for the inconvenience. I didn’t feel right taking away from the students’ regular scheduled content and thought it would be weird for me to show up as the only speaker for that second day. At that point, I had also lost the excitement I initially had about being a speaker. The email chain ended on a positive note and I said we could keep in touch, but I do think it has impacted my opinion of this professor a little bit.

4. HR hasn’t kept up with local employment regulations (#4 at the link)

Thanks so much for answering my question! I read the comments with a great deal of interest — there were widely varying perspectives, and I was surprised to find some folks more concerned about making HR look bad (not my intention — they manage to do that all by themselves) than making sure my coworkers know about the new benefit to which they’re now legally entitled.

An update: Once the employment policies intranet page had been updated by HR in early February, I did share the information with all of my New York colleagues and all of the early-career staff in my department (which is spread across the U.S.) via two Teams messages/posts. My intent in sharing it beyond the New York office is to see whether we can collectively encourage the company to match the benefit in all the locations where it operates. I kept an excited “how cool is this new benefit” tone throughout those Teams messages/posts. As some commenters rightly surmised, it’s very difficult to know that there are updates to our online employment policies page, since they’re neither announced nor tracked.

I’m glad to know my instincts were closely aligned with your advice.

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{ 164 comments }

{ 164 comments… read them below }

    2. Throwaway Account*

      Right!?!
      My internal compass is waffling so much I’m uncomfortable! Happy – Livid – Happy – Livid – which is it!?

      I need a full HEA and that means Dave and Jen and everyone have some kind of moment where they realize what they did!

      1. MsM*

        Eh, I’m willing to buy OP’s account of Jen’s redemption arc. If she keeps improving, looking back on her mistakes will be punishment enough.

        1. AlsoADHD*

          A ways back, I had a boss who pulled a Dave on me once and his boss (who later became my very great boss) was a Jen, and she handled it poorly for the first 7 months. Eventually, because I went into stubborn mode, and dug in until it went to the VP. Most people probably would’ve quit, and I had options. I just really loved the potential of the team and company and wanted to figure out what was happening too (I didn’t know all he was doing at first or that he was putting mistakes in my work and lying to other folks about my work, not inviting me to meetings and saying I no-showed or refused to meet at certain times I definitely never said anything about, etc).

          I had already impressed another VP and several C-Suite members, so my VP did see something was fishy. They finally unraveled it, demoted (sort of in a face saving way) and moved him, and I was happy there for awhile. My Jen apologized many times for believing him and not stepping in on her own sooner. She felt very guilty.

          I was happy he wasn’t fired, though, because he genuinely was not qualified for the job he had and would not land a similar one anywhere else, particularly a remote one with good healthcare and flexibility to deal with his family needs (he fell into that one and they hired me in part because they needed someone to compensate, so he had a reason to feel threatened even though it was supposed to be and could’ve been a symbiotic relationship where he was growing in his role and learning). But he’d been going through a legitimate bad time personally (major death of his father and a new second kid both the year before and then, wife diagnosed with cancer right after I started). Suddenly he hated all the reasons I was hired and got this sense I was “replacing” him and he needed to “make me look human” — I can’t pretend to understand it but I didn’t want his health care and living in jeopardy since he had kids and a sick wife (facts I knew were true). I’m not sure if he felt guilty as I avoided him and had no reason to work with him further. But I wasn’t looking for him to be “brought down” just to get my issues fixed and they were.

          I don’t understand people who need to tear down others, but it does usually come from feeling threatened, I guess. I imagine Tina is okay for the same reason I was (though maybe there’s less reason to pity Dave than my old boss). It worked out okay for her in the long run. And people can see perspective and learn to be better—my Jen would never fall for such shenanigans again or tolerate anyone making someone small to feel big, she realized that wasn’t okay no matter the circumstances.

    3. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      Everything good that happened to Tina would have happened anyway. She earned it by working for it. Dave and Jen set her career back and had NO repercussions for that. As OP said in the first letter, Dave got exactly what he wanted.
      Now Dave is a model employee, after a hate campaign that forced a stellar employee to either be held back or leave. Shout out for being a gracious winner?
      Today’s Jen would have fired Dave. OK, she’s embarrassed that as a manager she forced a stellar employee to be held back or leave because she chose “us v them” mentality when she transitioned into “them.”
      I’m happy OP is at peace with this.
      I’m happy stellar employee left it all behind.
      I understand that OP is not going to quit in some quixotic gesture.
      And I love ALL the updates.
      With that, I’d love to hear about “today’s Jen” in five years!

      1. Sloanicota*

        I also don’t think Dave could be cured after what we know. The next bright, high accomplishment woman who he feels threatens his position will likely set him off again.

        1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

          “Don’t speculate on what isn’t in the letter.”
          Yeah, well, I can extrapolate.
          Dave got “that woman” out of there. He’s happy.
          Jen is doing well.
          Yes, because she served Dave well in his mission. He is not threatened by her.
          Of course they are getting along. And again, Jen may have woken up from her “Dave-mania” and become more well rounded, or she may well fall on her sword for her next friend from the trenches.

          1. tangerineRose*

            Yeah, Dave should have been fired. Falsifying information like that and trying to mess with someone else’s career – awful things to do. He’s probably the same jerk underneath, just hasn’t had what he thinks is a good enough reason to do something like that again. Or hasn’t been caught lately.

        2. MigraineMonth*

          I think it is possible for someone to realize they have done terrible things and completely turn their life around. However, they usually don’t get there without first experiencing consequences and taking accountability.

          Please keep a close watch on Dave’s behavior. The lessons he’s learned from this fiasco are that he can target, harass, falsify data, spread rumors, try to harass online, and will be rewarded with everything he wants.

        3. Ellis Bell*

          I don’t think he’s suddenly going to turn into a resilient character who isn’t threatened by others, but circumstances may have changed even if his essential nature hasn’t. His personal circumstances may have changed, but mostly he doesn’t have weak management any more. The opportunity to do mischief has been greatly reduced and he probably has enough self interest to sense that.

    4. Elbe*

      Agreed. I’m so happy she’s doing well, but her success doesn’t take away how poorly she was treated by so many people at this company.

      The LW treated Tina fairly and did a lot of things right, and I have a lot of respect for the way that they handled this. The framing of the letter has a “see? it actually wasn’t so bad!” tone that makes we worried that the LW’s standards are being warped by being in such a dysfunctional environment. A company allowing a young employee to be bullied so badly that they leave would be a catastrophe in a lot of cases.

      I feel happy for the LW that their day-to-day is better now, but I really hope that they can find a better job at a new company, too.

      2. Kay*

        I too was concerned by the seeming lighthearted nature in which the LW painted the situation. Yes Tina got out but none of this was okay! is the thought that kept screaming in my head as I read.

    5. Ms. Eleanous*

      Yep .. happy and Livid.
      Dave really should have been fired.

      I don’t agree with that living well is the best revenge saying — because it really only operates if the bad guys Know how well their victim is living.

      I might not become Tina’s unofficial press rep, but it would be tempting.

      And I would be ever vigilant with regards to Dave – he is a back stabber if there ever was one.

      1. Generic Name*

        Thanks for the reminder to go on linkedin and brag about my recent raise and promotion and how cool the projects I’m working on are…. ;)

    6. Stipes*

      All the stuff about “no further problems with Dave”…

      As I said in the comments to the previous update, “someone willing to lie like that might do so again, much more carefully”.

      The whole idea of lying is that the person being deceived doesn’t realize it. After you happen to catch someone in a lie that egregious, you don’t know what you don’t see, but you do know that person is willing to manipulate what you see.

      Dave engaged in serious manipulation of evidence to deceive his workplace, was caught, and is still around with people putting trust in him. Just because he hasn’t been caught again doesn’t make that trust wise.

    7. OMG, Bees!*

      All said, I think it’s the best update that will do. I could see firing Dave, (as much as he deserves it!) might send him on a vendetta against Tina. But instead, Tina got promoted out of the company entirely and is far away from him and the toxic managers (aside from LW)

      I do still wish that Dave would be given a low performance review for a mistake he did when he first started at the company, only fair

  2. Kevin Sours*

    #2. What Ashley is doing is not okay. It’s one thing to be cool and avoid friendly chatter. But freezing you out is a step beyond that (though given the context I don’t think I’d press that point). But walking out of a work presentation and what sounds like avoiding work interaction? If this rises to the level of impacting your ability to do work you have standing to raise that with your manager (and may need to).

    1. Amber Rose*

      That was my thought too. This is way beyond being professionally cold and has rolled straight into childish and petty.

    2. Hlao-roo*

      Yes, I thought the same thing. The (small) silver lining here is that Ashley is mostly making herself look bad by acting this way, not making the LW look bad.

      1. LavaLamp (she/her)*

        Yeah i agree. I am curious as to what caused the falling out, but there comes a point where you need to behave professionally. You don’t have to be besties, but you do need to be able to ask about work without getting this attitude.

    3. Meow*

      I wonder what LW2 did that warrants Ashley basically making a public stand against her. She doesn’t deny she’s at fault or say that she thinks Ashley is overreacting… not trying to stir up speculation, just saying, it might be possible she really did do something *that bad*.

      1. sarahkka*

        Yeah, if for example one of my best friends had an affair with my boyfriend it would take A LOT for me to ever talk with them again unless absolutely necessary for work reasons. No matter how unprofessional that would make me look (but I would also be looking for a new job).

        Not saying that this is what happened of course, we don’t know that! But there are loads of things that might have happened that would not be easy to forgive and would make it extremely difficult to even say hi when passing.

        1. Elle*

          Honestly, even with that in mind, you have to be a grownup. My former spouse is now in a relationship with my former boss, and I know that when (not if- we’re in the same industry in a not huge city) I run into the latter, I will have to expend some energy to be reasonably personable. But I feel that’s my responsibility

          2. MigraineMonth*

            No matter how much they hurt you, your professional dignity is something they can’t take away from you. It’s not about being “the bigger person”, it’s about showing them how strong you are.

        2. Kevin Sours*

          “unless absolutely necessary for work reasons”

          The behavior describe appears to be stepping into necessary for work reasons. Walking out of a meeting? Not engaging on work chat? That’s going beyond even a pointed “we’re not friends” behavior.

          1. Antilles*

            I agree overall, though I’ll note that depending on the company/department culture, “not reacting to our group Teams chat” could be completely trivial. If a department group chat is mostly used socially, it’s quite common to have someone(s) in the group who rarely/never post or even flat out ignore the chat entirely.

            1. fhqwhgads*

              I read that bit of the letter as saying they’re both in the group teams chat, and Ashley participates in the chat, just never responds to anything OP says, only what other people say.

          2. RagingADHD*

            It sounded to me like the “not engaging on work chat” meant Ashley doesn’t add emoji reactions to LW’s comments, not that she is failing to provide requested information.

            1. Not Tom, Just Petty*

              I read it differently. I read work chat as messages about work, not “chit chat.” Funny how we read things differently. I felt this way because why would Ashley be in a group chat with the OP? If Ashley is willing to walk out of a room rather than her OP speak about work, I was sure she’d ignore any comments in chat about work things as well.
              I really imagine it like:
              Coworker A: when do we ship the llama’s?
              OP: June 3 at noon unless there is an issue.
              No comment from Ashley.
              Ashley contacts Coworker A separately to say it will be 12:30…
              I am really curious.

              1. Shipbuilding Techniques*

                In my office we have a whole-team chat of about 12 people where we ad-hoc knowledge-share, say funny things, vent, ask questions and send reminders constantly. Some say a lot, some say almost nothing. So that is what I was picturing.

      2. Dawn*

        Even so, you can’t bring that with you to work. Regardless of your personal feelings you must still remain professional with your colleagues; you cannot simply leave a meeting whenever they’re speaking, for example.

        1. I'm great at doing stuff*

          Agreed. She is under no obligation to be friends or even friendly with the OP, but she does need to be professional. She is free to doodle hateful things in a notebook if it helps. She really might get in trouble if this continues.

        2. Grizabella the Glamour Cat*

          I almost hope she DOES get in trouble, because she’s behaving pretty badly.

        3. amoeba*

          Yeah, I mean, in more extreme circumstances, I might resort to “icily polite” or even quite brusque (only engage when absolutely necessary for work, only giving a nod in reply to a “Good morning!”, not engaging in small talk, whatever), but ignoring somebody completely is just not something that would ever be appropriate in a workplace. Or, honestly, in the vast majority of personal life/social settings, either!

      3. toolegittoresign*

        I don’t think anything warrants Ashley standing up and leaving the room when it was LW’s turn to present. I can understand not wanting to talk to someone casually, but I assume that if LW was presenting and Ashley was scheduled to be there, that the content of the presentation is relevant to work. It’s very childish behavior.

        1. Dasein9 (he/him)*

          I agree.

          LW2, you said your falling out with Ashley was your fault.
          It sounds like you think that Ashley’s current behavior is therefore also your fault.

          It’s not.

          Ashley has the same responsibility to be professional as anyone else. It may be too much to ask that she be pleasant, but she needs to be, at least, not-unpleasant.

      4. WeirdChemist*

        Even if the LW did something horrendous, Ashley still either needs to maintain a baseline of polite professionalism, or go to HR to work out a solution where she and the LW will be kept away from each other. Her current actions are unprofessional and immature, and to an uninformed outsider, Ashley will be the one coming off badly

        (My nosey-ness also desperately wants to know what happened lol)

        1. daffodil*

          My drama llama is desperate for the deets even though the more reasonable side of me respects LW’s right to keep it private!

      5. lalaw*

        Yeah, I agree with you. Realistically, there’s not much that would warrant Ashley’s behavior toward LW2, but if it was something like starting an affair with a husband or saying something discriminatory, I can see it being difficult to interact with her at all.

        2. Seashell*

          It could be relevant. If the other friend didn’t freeze out LW, I’m guessing it’s more in the territory of saying something bad about Ashley in the course of gossiping. However, if the misdeed was criminal, then I could see her wanting to completely stay away. If it was a “fooled around with Ashley’s boyfriend” type of thing, I could understand the anger, but she needs to be able to hide the anger better.

          1. Polaris*

            That’s where I fall too. Sure, it could be irrelevant, but we’re all human. Should Ashley hide it better to be professional? Absolutely. Are there cases where there is no way I could hide an issue? Again, absolutely.

            1. Dawn*

              The thing is that if you can’t, your manager needs to step in and tell you that your choice is either to continue to be professional towards your coworker, or find a new job. There’s no room in this for “oh well I really can’t so you all have to put up with my unprofessional response.”

          2. Mamma Mia!*

            Yes, this. There was a letter some years back from someone who was going to manage an employee who had been horribly harmed by the letter writer’s family member. Obviously there were major differences in that scenario, but if, for example, the person who had done the harm had been writing in (and not been a manager), I wouldn’t fault the employee for quietly walking out of their presentation.

            Of course, I’m guessing/hoping it’s something much less intense! In which case, yes, Ashley needs to be professional.

            1. fhqwhgads*

              If I recall that situation correctly, there was also a restraining order involved in that one.

          3. ferrina*

            Remember the guy who ghosted his fiance? He waited until she left the country, then completely moved out of their shared apartment with no note. Years later she was hired to be principal of the school he was teaching in, and he was wondering what to do.

            There are a handful of situations that warrant not being able to be in the same room as someone/not wanting to ever see them or hear their voice. The number of situations are very, very few, but they are out there. We have no way of knowing if this is one of them.

            1. Dawn*

              But if you literally cannot, then you need to move on and find a new job, and your manager should be telling you as much.

              1. amoeba*

                Yup, or figure something out with your boss/HR (internal transfer, whatever). If you do keep working together, you *have* to be professional. If you cannot, you can’t work together, full stop.

            2. Kevin Sours*

              In which case Ashley needs to take it management/HR to a permanent resolution. You can’t freeze out a coworker.

    4. Dawn*

      Came to say this. No matter what the fight was about, it’s still on Ashley to work politely and professionally with you. Leaving when you’re giving a presentation she’s expected to listen to, for example, is really something her manager should be dealing with.

    5. Aggretsuko*

      I dunno, I was frozen out by coworkers, but I also didn’t have to depend on them to help me with my work either. If Ashley doesn’t have to cooperate with LW or work with her directly and all she’s doing is the cut direct, that beats the alternative of Ashley being openly hostile or campaigning to get rid of LW. Frankly, could be worse :/

      1. CherryBlossom*

        Yeah, I agree that if their work doesn’t overlap much, what Ashley’s doing isn’t great, but it’s not as egregious as some people are making it out to be.

        Not replying/reacting to messages in the office chat? Honestly I do that with coworkers I do like; if there’s no overlap, I have nothing to say or react to! Leaving when OP3 is presenting? Unless Ashley is making a big show of leaving exactly when OP3 is getting up, or the presentation is vital to Ashley’s job, I really don’t see the harm in her quietly excusing herself.

        (I may be biased because I’ve recently iced out a coworker I couldn’t stand and who couldn’t stand me. We sniped at each other, got sick of dealing with each other, and have come to the silent agreement to pretend the other doesn’t exist unless necessary. Also not ideal, but not Awful.)

        2. Starbuck*

          Yea, LW giving a recap of their experience overseas sounds like maybe interesting but probably mostly fluff and not something full of info Ashley needs to do her job. It doesn’t sound like there are any actual work impacts, or even behavior anyone would notice without knowing the context between them.

          1. Dawn*

            The thing is though that whether it was vital information or not (and we can’t know that,) it seems like Ashley was still expected to attend that meeting, which typically includes staying through all of it.

            We also can’t know if she worked out another arrangement of course, but it’s likely not really up to her to decide what’s important for her to attend and what’s not.

            1. Insert Clever Name Here*

              Sure, but we (and the OP) also can’t know if Ashley left because she had overlapping meetings, and OP’s presentation happened to be when Ashley had to leave to make her next meeting. If Ashley’s doing it because she’s mad, that’s not professional but being mad at the presenter is not the only reason to leave a meeting.

            2. Morgan*

              Very much depends on the workplace. In mine there are lots of meetings where many invitees are marked “optional” and you may drop in if you think it’d be beneficial, but aren’t required to attend; you may also dip out discreetly if you have a conflict or something comes up (or just if you realize that, wait, this is actually much less relevant to you than you’d thought). Leaving early, especially if it’s disruptive, might be rude, but in many cases it absolutely is up to individual employees to decide what’s important for them to attend.

      2. ferrina*

        I agree with this. It doesn’t sound like it’s impacting OP’s ability to do their job, so I don’t really see it as a work issue. If someone hates you, then having them avoid you is really the best option (again, assuming it doesn’t impact work at all).

        I’m a little disappointed to see that OP said they had had hopes of reviving the friendship- in the original letter, OP says that the falling out is completely their fault. Ashley gets to decide if she wants a friendship with OP again. And without knowing the background of the falling out, it’s impossible to know if Ashley is overreacting or reacting appropriately.

    6. Allegra*

      Walking out of the room for LW’s presentation made me blink a few times.

      It feels extremely juvenile to me, because my college ex did exactly this after we broke up. We were in a very active sorority and needed to be vaguely collegial, and she would not speak a word to me. One time she accidentally backed into me in a crowded room at a public event our sorority was hosting–she started to automatically apologize, looked around and saw it was me, and stopped talking literally in the middle of the word “sorry.” Just turned back around and acted like I wasn’t there. It was exhausting, and that was just social–this is a workplace! Going out of your way to avoid someone like this does not feel like the grownup thing to do.

    7. biobotb*

      I would hope the LW would have mentioned if Ashley’s behavior is impacting her work. She didn’t, so I’m assuming it’s not, as that would be a bizarrely large thing to leave out.

      Ashley’s being rude, but she’s not freezing the LW out. She’s not blocking the LW from doing her work, attending or presenting at meetings or interacting with other coworkers. LW does not describe any way her work has been impacted.

      1. Greenwalker*

        I agree. A lot of folks on here are adding details/ assumptions, that I don’t see stated in the letter, that add up to Ashley’s behavior impacting work issues, when that just isn’t clear (ie, what kind of meeting did Ashley walk out of- a casual lunch and learn, or a department wide mandatory meeting?). In the end of the letter LW states that she has given up “reviving the friendship” which seems to be the actual issue here. There’s nothing to be done about that- sometimes our actions have consequences and people DON’T “get over it” and everybody goes back to being friends. I think that’s what’s difficult for her to accept, because she seemingly had that expectation.The thing is we can think we’ve “taken responsibility for our actions”, but also have a secret timeline we expect the harmed person to get over it, to move on, and think things will go back the way they were. But that’s not the way things work sometimes.

    8. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I think this shows badly on Ashley and not on OP. I don’t thing the OP should say anything until it truly causes an issue. If she walked out when OP started (especially if that’s unusual for the company) people are going to think Ashley is the one with the issue. OP should only tell the manager if she refuses to do any work with her. Then of course do not go into details. OP can explain they used to be friends at work, but they had a falling out shortly before she left for overseas.
      Based on how Ashley is acting, I kind of wonder if the whole incident to begin with was overblown by Ashley to begin with. She seems very dramatic.

    9. sofar*

      Yep. In the workplace, you’re getting paid for being baseline polite and professionally cordial to ALL coworkers, whether you like them or not. You don’t have to go out of your way to be chummy with someone, but you also should not go out of your way to avoid someone. Turning the other way in the hallway and walking out of a presentation is unprofessional, no matter what LW did.

      This letter is was almost relevant to me, because someone I had a falling out with interviewed at my company some months ago. She ended up turning down the offer in the end, but I was really worried about having to see her in person.

      1. ferrina*

        I’ve had to work with people who hate me before. It really sucked. (we didn’t have a falling out- in one case, the person just decided one day that they didn’t like my personality, and in another case, the person got mad because I wasn’t able to do them a favor that they thought I should have done).

        I think avoiding someone is the least bad option. That doesn’t mean it’s a good option, but this might be the best way for Ashley to cope. And it will definitely reflect more on Ashley than OP. If this is a pattern with Ashley- to have a big reaction to a coworker- then that will come to light sooner or later. There is a slight chance that OP did a serious wrong to Ashley that warrants this strong of a reaction- all OP says about the falling out is that it was OP’s fault.

    10. I'm great at doing stuff*

      Agreed. She is under no obligation to be friends or even friendly with the OP, but she does need to be professional. Leaving while the OP presents is just really lame and childish. She is free to doodle hateful things in a notebook if it helps. She really might get in trouble if this continues.

    11. Tiger Snake*

      It sounds like what Ashley is doing is the Cut Direct.

      And given LW says that the falling out was her fault and Ashley is right to be upset with her – I have to wonder what the heck LW did. The Cut Direct is severe, and its so difficult to actually pull off consistently – its also uncomfortable for Ashley – that you don’t usually try it unless its worth it. You especially don’t risk a work impact unless it was huge.

      What I’m saying is, Ashley would have a reason for this if someone asked her. I’m not worried about LW making up with Ashley. I am starting to get concerned about the gossip LW is going to have to suffer.

  3. Antilles*

    #1: I’m sorry, did HR say that there’s no such thing as tracking patterns in employees? That seems like a really bad (and odd) thing to believe when part of your job is protecting the company from liability.

    1. Bananapants*

      I literally just finished my workplace sexual and psychological harassment training today and so much of what happened to Tina would be grounds to take a complaint to the labour commission where I live, if management and HR didn’t stop it.

      1. Upside down Question Mark*

        this! adding her with fake accounts on social media? it’s so creepy!

    2. NotARealManager*

      I work HR adjacent and we definitely track incidents, actionable or not. That is part of HR’s function and protects both the employees and the company if there IS an actionable incident later on.

      1. ferrina*

        Seconding. Also work HR adjacent, and we definitely keep an eye on certain people or situations. The patterns are important.

    3. A*

      Yeah that’s bananas

      The one guy I know has gotten fired for cause (not performance related, but shenanigans) it was a pattern and HR had been monitoring it, and I don’t know what the exact incident that got him fired was but I would bet a dollar that if I had done that one thing I wouldn’t be fired. But it was the last straw in a pattern where he had been warned before. (He didn’t make good choices around substances and had been an idiot at office parties or sent inappropriate group messages after hours while intoxicated… his job was probably saved for a year by the fact that the pandemic stopped company get together and parties though, making it easier to behave..)

    4. MigraineMonth*

      Seriously! Isn’t that the point of having an employment record? That it tracks the employee’s history, including past performance and incidents?

      What ludicrousness does this lead to? We don’t track who’s been put on a PIP? Jacob has been using a boxcutter to destroy his office chair every week, but a chair only costs $200 so even though he’s cost the company $10,000 we’ll never bring it up with him? Jane, Sally, Latisha and Maria all reported the same employee for sexual harassment, but since they reported the incidents on different days we’re considering them all “first strikes” in our policy?

    5. Tina LW*

      Yes multiple HR professionals I talked to in different companies said they do not keep track of complaints that aren’t proven in anyway. They all confirmed they would do nothing if I reported that “We suspect Dave was sending sock puppet accounts on her social media” despite the fact that he had a prior incident with the employee on file.

      It was at such odds with what most people were saying here

      1. Sara K*

        I think there’s a difference between random allegation with no substance or random allegation about something extremely petty and the kinds of things that Dave was doing. I am not HR but am legally responsible and have a duty of care to people in my organisation and while we would not place on file the former kinds of reports, we would absolutely place the latter on Dave’s personnel file. When you consulted with the HR folk did you get into the details of Dave’s behaviours? Because if you did I’m kind of appalled at the numbers of people working in HR who seem to have no understanding of their actual jobs.

        1. Tina LW*

          Yes I explained all the context. :)

          I explained the the false allegations, but that his boss agreed with his assessment. I explained the report and how that was something HR was looped in with.

          Then I explained the timing of the rumour and the random social media requests. The two HR people I spoke with from my prior company said they would not do anything with those suspicions since I never even saw Dave participating in the rumour.

          As for my HR. I never consulted with them like I explained. I respected Tina’s wishes.

          1. Your former password resetter*

            I would understand if they don’t want to start formal discipline based on suspicions, but ths warrants an investigation at the very least!

      2. Mid*

        I mean, specifically the sock puppet social media accounts would be hard to report unless there was a reasonable amount of evidence (like every profile had a name similar to Dave, or they all used the same profile picture, or they all had him as a mutual friend and no one else) and even then, that might not be enough without a really clear pattern of stalking behavior. However, all of his other conduct should have been reported as well! Starting rumors, targeting a coworker, etc. There are a lot of little things that should have been reported, not just the social media thing.

  4. Fluffy Fish*

    “That is not a thing. We aren’t school admins keeping a permanent record in that way. We handle illegal behavior, or actionable behaviors against internal policies. […] That’s it!” ”

    Strongly strongly disagree. There’s a lot of behavior that isn’t usually explicitly prohibited but absolutely can and should be handled. Someone’s track record/pattern of behavior absolutely matters. If that’s your companies HR or you are the HR and that’s your attitude it’s….not great. It’s exactly how office bullies thrive as evidenced by OP1.

    1. Selina Luna*

      I wonder what they think of as a “permanent record,” anyway. I work in a high school, and a kid who is a jerk in elementary school doesn’t have that follow him to other schools. It’s just not a thing. If they do something illegal, they have a police record. Expulsions are put on transcripts, which can matter if the student is in high school, but the “permanent record” as shown in cartoons about kids (Doug and Hey, Arnold! come to mind), where the principal can add petty bull, doesn’t exist.

      1. Selina Luna*

        I want to add, because I realized how what I said could be construed, that I don’t think Dan was doing petty stuff. I think he should have been fired then, and I’m side-eyeing OP now for being willing to let his previous behavior go, since there is surely more than one potential “Tina” in the world and he could do all of this over again.
        My point was just that school records are rarely permanent in the way TV shows portray them.

        1. Fluffy Fish*

          I got what you were saying! It’s also an even weirder example when you factor in that a child who has some behavioral issues wont have some weird list of every infraction, but they absolutely will have a record in that people will be aware from year to year and class to class that hey this kid is disruptive or needs extra supports, etc, etc.

    2. Orora*

      Yeah, some stuff on its own is not enough to be considered a violation of policy, but as a pattern it becomes a problem. It’s like tardiness: It’s not ideal but once in a while it’s forgivable. When it becomes a recognizable pattern it needs to be addressed. If you don’t have the information to recognize it, how are you going to see that it’s a pattern?

      1. Fluffy Fish*

        Exactly. We don’t have a hard start time and there’s no policy but if I started rolling in at 11 everyday cause I feel like it, it sure is going to be an issue thats addressed.

    3. Inflatable Unicorn*

      We handle illegal behavior, or actionable behaviors against internal policies.

      Introducing a major error into a very important report ISN’T actionable behavior against internal policies?

      1. Fluffy Fish*

        I mean few places are going to have a policy that explicitly says “Do not intentionally insert errors into work products” but yes I agree common sense unwritten policy of normal functioning workplaces it would be a violation of don’t sabotage people and do good work.

        The HR person OP spoke to is clearly ill-informed on what a good HR should be handling and sounds exactly like the bad kind that do say “well its not against policy so nothing we can do”.

      2. Clara*

        Yeah, we had a case where we found out someone was tampering with a colleague’s project and we absolutely fired him for that.

        1. RetiredAcademicLibrarian*

          Good for your company! In a research ethics course I took, one egregious example was a grad student who sabotaged another grad student. He got told not to do it again but no other consequences and she was told to keep quiet even though the evidence included video of him poisoning her research animals. She didn’t keep quiet and the lab retaliated against her and she ended up suing the university and winning.

            1. Chas*

              That University is lucky she didn’t go straight to an Animal Rights charity with that video!

      3. Tina LW*

        The report incident was handled with HR. They are aware of that. He was not fired because Jen went to bat for him.

        It’s only the suspicions that I did not go to my company’s HR with because of what I learned speaking to some of my contacts in HR from prior companies.

        1. AD*

          Handled how? Your first update and this one has a lot of he said/she said but no mention of Dave being sanctioned for purposefully introducing a major error with the express intention of getting a colleague dismissed (!). His manager “went to bat for him” and all was forgotten?

          Glad to hear Tina has moved on — and your power, of course, is limited. But your company and your colleagues are terrible.

    4. Starbuck*

      Also very weird that they don’t have internal policies about Dave lying and intentionally falsifying a report… surely that should have been actionable. Oh well!

    5. Elbe*

      Yeah, this company’s HR is full of bees.

      The finding of a hostile work environment often hinges on behavior repeated over time. Asking someone to coffee isn’t a reportable offense. Asking someone out repeatedly after they said no is, and it would require documentation to prove that.

    6. Sloanicota*

      It’s weird how “you can be fired for (almost) any reason or no reason at all” is only ever used as a cudgel, never a shield.

  5. HugeTractsofLand*

    #1: I’m sorry, but your company is a mess. Leadership was already rotten and this just proves that HR is rotten as well. I hope you’re able to get out of there before your sense of work norms completely atrophies.

    #2: Someone needs to tell *Ashley* to be polite and professional. This is honestly worthy of raising with a manager, because she might be actively badmouthing you around the dept.

    1. Elle*

      I think the fact that the LW is totally cool with Jen now and their statement about how the bad behavior “launched” Tina into a higher paying career track indicates they’re ready pretty warped.

      1. HugeTractsofLand*

        Yeah, that’s exactly what stuck out to me, as well as Dan being a “model employee” now. LW has some appropriate moves peppered in (offering the award to Tina, being cautious about Jen, their last sentence), but this reads as someone who’s halfway into the quicksand. I think this situation forced them to confront how their company is broken and they’re mostly relieved that it’s “back to normal,” which is why I want to point out that what went down is NOT normal!

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I don’t really disagree with your overall point, but I read the “model employee” thing differently. I don’t think LW is saying he’s genuinely reformed or good now. I read that as meaning something more like, he got caught, spoken to, not fired, and is now behaving by the book as a result.
          Like, either he got 1000x sneakier with his shenanigans, or he stopped the shenanigans because he knows management is actually paying attention now, but it’s impossible to know which.

        3. Tina LW*

          I don’t know how many ways I can say it I don’t like Dave. I think Dave should have been fired. If I could fire Dave right now I would.

          I do not think Dave is a model employee! He has simply acted beyond reproach since my last update. I am diligent about a relapse and check in with my staff regularly.

          1. AD*

            Well….that’s literally how you phrased it in your letter. Glad things seem to have worked out (although Tina deserved none of this) but your company is still awful and Dave is still a liar who made up stuff to get a colleague fired.

      2. NotARealManager*

        Yeah. Dave and Jen are now behaving better because they successfully bullied the person they didn’t like out of their workplace. That’s not good!

        Glad for Tina that she’s gone and doing well.

      4. M*

        They also don’t seem to have spoken to HR at their *own company*, just their newer boss and some industry contacts on the HR side at *other* companies.

        I would be… resoundingly unimpressed with the professionalism of OP’s department, if I were senior there and found out it had been handled this way.

      5. Tina LW*

        I’ve stated repeatedly that with Jen I am cautiously optimistic. That’s far from “cool”.

        Also it was Tina herself who said that. She laughed and said if it weren’t for Dave and Sally tanking her raise she would not have looked for a new job. And would have never had that elevator chat with her manager after the LGBT committee.

        Obviously I think very highly of her skill set and I think her performance speaks for itself.

    2. Alicent*

      OP said the falling out was justified on Ashley’s part, but didn’t say what they did to her. If OP had an affair with her partner or stole money from her I could completely understand cutting her out entirely. I wouldn’t push it AT ALL if I was OP because what they did to her getting out might be career suicide at this job.

    3. bamcheeks*

      Your policies are very weird if this is NOT actionable behaviour against policies. I mean, you probably don’t have “Rule 6: don’t insert mistakes into other people’s work”, but if you don’t have some kind of generic “operate at the highest standards of professional behaviour” or “treat all colleagues with respect”, wyd

  6. Bird names*

    Thanks for the updates and once again glad that Tina got out.
    Not sure about this sentiment:
    “In the end, all the nasty stuff that Dave, Jen, and Sally pulled launched Tina into a higher paying career track.”
    Tina launched herself and I hope she can now look at the unkindness and backstabbing she went through for no reason other than jealousy from a very comfortable distance.

    1. Trillian*

      Posters have noted the damage that bullying did them, in their confidence and willingnes to trust, even if they did objectively benefit.

    2. Zona the Great*

      Yes, this takes the credit away from Tina who persevered in a shitty situation. She did it in spite of a pretty tough campaign against her. I’m not pleased at all the Dave was allowed to remain especially considering he was continuing what sounded like something near slander or libel. He should have been fired.

      Don’t give any credit to the jerks at your workplace. Even if backhanded.

      1. Bird names*

        Basically this, yeah. It creates a relation where there is none. Tina would have flourished even more in a respectful and supportive environment and likely still would have climbed the ladder steadily. The behavior of these three just meant she had to do it all while trying to swim uphill.

        Still glad of course that LW did her best to affirm Tina and try to push back against Dave as much as her position allowed.

    3. blood orange*

      I came here to say this. Tina’s career launched forward DESPITE the actions of her coworkers and leadership. This statement seems to give them some kind of credit. Many people in Tina’s circumstance would have seen short- and long-term negative effects of the incompetence and targeted attacks around her.

      1. MigraineMonth*

        She may very well still be experiencing long-term negative effects apart from her career trajectory. Can you imagine how stressful it would be to be targeted by a bully who was protected by *three levels* of management after he framed you for making an error in a major report, and who then continued spreading rumors and trying to contact/harass you after you moved departments?

        I wouldn’t be surprised if her work would have been better, she develops trust issues or she burns out because of all the shit piled on her.

      2. fhqwhgads*

        Tina’s career was going to launch forward no matter what, because Tina’s kickass and too good. Without the shenanigans, it would’ve launched forward sooner.

    4. Elbe*

      It seems like every time someone succeeds after a hardship, people always jump to credit the hardship for that chain of events. It’s a pet peeve of mine because it’s so often completely unfounded.

      1. Elle*

        It makes people who did not act to prevent the hardship or downplayed the hardship feel better about themselves.

  7. Sparkles McFadden*

    #1 – This is actually a good update. You did your due diligence in a difficult situation and you’re all doing OK. That company still sounds like a mess, though. Please remind yourself of that every once in awhile.

    There is a weird upside of being targeted like Tina was. Non-crazy people see how you handle yourself in the midst of lunatics and you get a kind of sideways positive exposure that leads to more opportunities. It’s still not a great situation to be in.

  8. AngryOwl*

    #1 is so frustrating. I’m glad Tina got away from, frankly, *everyone* at that company.

    “Quoting one HR professional when I asked about noting it in Dave’s record in case there is a pattern: “That is not a thing. We aren’t school admins keeping a permanent record in that way. We handle illegal behavior, or actionable behaviors against internal policies. […] That’s it!””

    That’s…not true. Of course HR keeps an eye on patterns. Unless you were asking if they did official writeups or something..?

    1. Happy meal with extra happy*

      Okay, and? Would OP have to quit in order to be redeemed in your eyes? What more do you want them to do.

      The self righteousness and projections that sometimes appears in these comments can get so over the top.

      1. AngryOwl*

        I don’t believe I said anything about OP quitting? If you have an issue with that, go find someone who did suggest it.

        In terms of what I’d rather the OP do, there’s not really anything at this point since the matter is settled. I hope that in the future if something like this happens, they dig in more (such as getting accurate HR information) for their employee. Or, at the very least, don’t justify it as this treatment “launching” someone into something better so alls well that ends well.

        As far as being redeemed, I honestly don’t know what you mean by that. There’s no redemption necessary. The OP isn’t some terrible person, just someone who did things I disagree with. Your reaction to my comment is baffling to me but I hope you find peace.

      3. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

        Do you see yourself in this letter or something? Your self righteousness seems to be what’s OTT here.

      4. NotARealManager*

        I don’t think anyone is suggesting OP quit or that they’re a bad person. They’re trying to help by pointing out:

        1) Their company still sucks and OP might not notice because of a frog in boiling water situation happening.

        2) Whatever HR they spoke to that said HR doesn’t track incidents is not the norm for the larger HR professional community.

        3) Tina did not grow because she was bullied, but in spite of it.

        It’s important to recognize what is normal and what is not otherwise work culture everywhere begins to suffer. We might not all work union jobs, but we still can affect how employees are treated when we can point to something and say “hey, that isn’t right.” And if not for the sake of all workers everywhere, we at least want OP to recognize it for themselves.

  9. Seashell*

    Tina’s former workplace sounds pretty wacky in general. If my supervisor was going around saying my co-worker was a genius and the co-worker wasn’t a modern-day Einstein, I would find that odd. If LW had to be told that Tina wasn’t perfect, it sounds like the Tina love might have been excessive.

    Anyway, good for Tina for moving on and upward.

    1. Tina LW*

      It’s ironic you mention Einstein. That is what the call staff called her when she worked in my department.

      Honestly? I think this was the source of the friction with Dave. I learned that before she came along the call staff called him The Professor. But just a few days after she started they started calling her Einstein and stopped going to him about anything. I don’t think Tina even knew this had happened. I only found out when he tried to rekindle the old nickname and fell flat.

      Is it weird? Yeah sure. But it’s pretty common in this field in my experience since we deal with the most angry customers day in and day out. People bond on that and do things to make the rest of the day more entertaining.

  10. Hlao-roo*

    OP3 – Thanks for the update! I’m glad you reached out the professor and that he apologized.

  11. CubeFarmer*

    I think it’s somewhat relevant what OP did to Ashley to cause the friendship to end. It almost makes me wonder if Ashley is looking for that confrontation to happen, and is passively encouraging it by her behavior. OP, don’t bite!

    That said, this is another reason why, in mid career, I’ve moved away from having “work friends.” Like, I will be friendly and chatty with my colleagues, but I’m not going to encourage social interactions outside of work. My last gang of work friends broke up when two people moved to new jobs (we’re still in touch) and one became a raging anti-vaxxer (and also eventually left.) It made me realize that I want to keep my work and private lives mostly separate.

    1. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      I agree that Ashley seems to be dramatic here. Who turns and goes the other way when they see someone walking down the hallway? OP just needs to shut up, keep treating Ashley professionally and nicely. I have a feeling at some point we will get an update that Ashley started some sort of drama. If OP is good she will not take any bate and let Ashley dig her own hole.
      I also wish we knew more about what happened.

      1. Mid*

        I think leaving in the middle of a meeting is the far more egregious behavior, actually! Even if LW was the last speaker on the agenda, that’s pretty extreme and noticeable. It does make me wonder what happened between those two. If LW intentionally burnt down Ashley’s house, slept with her husband, and stole her dog, maybe that reaction is reasonable. But unless LW’s actions were fairly extreme (which I’m guessing they weren’t given that Stephanie and LW have made up), Ashley is looking like a bit of a loon here. And if I were LW, I’d keep my distance (professionally and respectfully.)

  13. Alan*

    Maybe others will think this is irrelevant, but I wonder if LW #2 ever apologized for whatever it was that they did. It might be too little too late now, and Ashley is being juvenile either way, but maybe an apology (albeit late) would take some of the bite out of the relationship.

    1. MigraineMonth*

      Not if Ashley has refused contact. The desire to apologize/make amends for something one did wrong needs to come second place to respecting the other person’s boundaries.

      LW is doing the right thing already: they have taken responsibility and are trying to treat Ashley as a distant acquaintance, which is necessary to be coworkers. The ball is in Ashley’s court, and it has to be her decision where to take the play from here.

  14. Aelswitha*

    I’d be mentioning Tina’s awards, new high level role and higher pay at every meeting Dave attended, and every time I spoke to Dave for ever. Hell, I’d make stuff up: “Did you hear? Tina got another promotion and a huge raise! Isn’t that wonderful?” And also, possibly: “Poor Tina was being harassed by some creepy little loser incel on social media, but the police are very close to wrapping that up!”

    1. MigraineMonth*

      Lol, yes. “You know, I was just looking over the report from 2022, and our reports used to have so much more polish. Tina did amazing work, it’s a real shame she moved on to bigger and better things… then I remembered an idea she had that might really turn the department around, I think you expressed interest at the time, *Dave*…”

    2. Ms. Eleanous*

      Aelswitha … hee hee hee.
      I am especially fond of the Police close to ID-ing the social media troll.

      Kudos.

  15. RagingADHD*

    LW2, does every person at your company normally speak to each other when they pass in the hallway? Do you have a work-related reason why you need responses to your comments on work chat from everyone who sees them, or are you actively counting “likes” to see whether she clicked? Was she disruptive when she left the presentation, or might an uninformed observer think she had to go to the bathroom or another meeting?

    I’m just wondering whether Ashley is actively “icing you out” as some are imagining, or whether she has simply defaulted to the way most colleagues behave with people they don’t know well or aren’t close to. For example, when I’ve worked with smaller orgs, the staff tends to be tight-knit and it would be very strange to pass someone without at least a smile and a nod. While at larger companies, people may or may not do that based on their relationship, and may frequently pass people they don’t know at all.

    Similarly, if you were presenting in a small conference room with seven people and Ashley jumped up and climbed over people to get out, that’s one thing. If there were thirty or forty people attending and she showed up for the announcements and project updates but slipped out the back when the less-relevant presentations started, that’s not uncommon even for people who have no personal beef.

    I get the impression that you are expecting Ashley to act like a friend, rather than a random coworker that you aren’t directly engaged with on a project. If so, you’ll be a lot less frustrated if you stop monitoring her and treat her like a brand-new coworker that you don’t know, and if you wind up needing to work with her directly on something, you’ll need to rebuild that professional connection from scratch.

    1. MsM*

      If she’d truly slipped out the back, OP might not have noticed. Also, it doesn’t sound like there was a natural break in the program at that point, or that anyone else took the opportunity to bail, so…yeah, I’m sticking with just objectively weird.

      1. Starbuck*

        We don’t know that either way. It sounds to me like LW is paying very close attention to Ashley’s actions though. My assumption is that a presentation on “here’s what my time abroad was like” is an interesting for-fun kin of thing and not info essential to anyone’s job. I agree that she should try to pay less attention to Ashley if she doesn’t need to work directly with her on something.

    2. Silver Robin*

      Expecting that Ashley: 1) sits through LW’s presentation when it is part of the meeting Ashley is attending; 2) does not turn around to walk the other direction upon spotting LW; 3) manages to acknowledge LW’s presence when they do bump into each other is not expecting somebody to “act like a friend”. That is expecting pretty widespread professional norms. I think we can trust LW enough that Ashley’s behavior is weird; LW might be more attuned to it due to their history, but that does not mean LW is overinterpreting or misunderstanding their own company’s norms.

      To take your advice about treating Ashley like a brand new coworker: if a brand new coworker did that to me, I would absolutely think they are behaving oddly, bordering on rude. Avoiding me in the hallways could be shyness, but exiting the room without a reason when I am presenting is unprofessional. It does not matter how obvious it is or not. All of that together? They definitely have an issue, whether it is with me or with work in general would remain to be seen, but absolutely not okay and something I would bring up with my manager to ask about navigating.

      1. RagingADHD*

        Maybe it is totally weird and obvious behavior – as you see, I included examples of pretty pronounced weirdness in my original comment. But it is also possible that Ashley’s behavior is totally professional in context, and LW is still smarting over the sting of the lost friendship and hyperfixating a bit. I have worked places where it is totally normal to pass by people — even people you know — without a greeting if you’re clearly on the way somewhere, looking at papers, checking your phone, etc. The hallways are more like a public street.

        Similarly, I’ve been in plenty of large departmental meetings where there are “official business” portions where it is important to take notes or at least show your face to TPTB, followed by teambuilding or culture presentations (like “here’s an update on my experience working overseas”) where it is not uncommon for a few people to opt out because they have another meeting.

        Clearly in this case Ashley is deliberately avoiding LW, but if it is so subtle that nobody else could perceive the snub without having the entire history explained to them, then it’s debatable whether it’s worth taking to management, or if there’s anything management could or would do about it. And the manager probably doesn’t want to know whatever LW did in the first place to cause the end of the friendship. I can’t imagine that having Ashley make a point of greeting LW in the hallway or making sure to respond to every single one of LW’s Slack messages because she was ordered to “make nice” would really feel better.

        LW doesn’t seem to be intending to go to management anyway, so I just think it’s worth considering how a change in LW’s mindset might help them be less frustrated about the whole situation.

        1. Silver Robin*

          My issue is that you said LW is looking for Ashley to “act like a friend” and I think that is really unfair; LW is looking for what is normal in a lot of different workplaces.

          If Ashley acts like this with other coworkers, fine, LW can learn to let it go and readjust to new normal. But it is just as likely that this is not usual for their workplace and LW feels iced out for valid reasons.

          1. RagingADHD*

            The LW themselves said they were hoping to re-establish the friendship until *after* Ashley made it abundantly clear that was not an option.

            I didn’t make that up. It’s in the letter.

            LW said they hoped working together in office would allow opportunity for the friendship to resume / rebuild. Ashley remained distant, and now LW is frustrated but accepts that the friendship is definitely over.

            I don’t think it’s at all farfetched that this misplaced hope may have made Ashley’s distance seem particularly pointed to LW, while it might not have been noticeable to anyone else.

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I think it’s worthwhile for LW’s to step back and try to assess if Ashley’s avoidance is extremely conspicuous in general – or just conspicuous to LW because they know their own history and were worried about what would happen at work.
          LW’s telling of it reads like Ashley is very obviously avoiding LW in a way that is clear to other coworkers also. But taking the events without LW’s background info, it’s possible what Ashley’s doing is unremarkable to everyone else.
          If it’s the former, Ashley’s being unprofessional. If it’s the latter, LW would be well-served to try to ignore it.

      2. Starbuck*

        “exiting the room without a reason when I am presenting is unprofessional.”

        Is it? If I’m sitting through a coworker’s “here’s what my time abroad was like” session, I’m going to leave without interrupting if I need the bathroom, or have an overlapping meeting, or someone is trying to call me, or lots of other valid reasons. But I’m not going to announce that. I think LW is right that Ashley was leaving to avoid her of course, but probably no one else would think it was all that strange.

        I think the advice to bring this behavior to a manager if

        1. Silver Robin*

          Is Ashley doing that to other people? If it is the bathroom, why did she not come back? If it is a phone call, there should be other examples. If she is so important that she has multiple overlapping meetings, there should also be other examples.

          My point is that I think it is entirely reasonable to trust LW that this is weird behavior and it is a little unfair to characterize LW as seeking “friendship behavior” rather than “baseline normal professional behavior”

          1. KC*

            OP literally said she was sad about not being able to rekindle the friendship, so it’s reasonable to see this as OP looking for friendship behavior.

            If it weren’t OP wouldn’t be fixating on something as miniscule as *not liking a post*.

  16. No Achoo for You*

    I was Tina at my last job. Unfortunately I never got my redemption arc. In fact, I was fired last week for attendance policy violations because I had severe flu and ended up in the emergency room, where they accidentally found some severe health conditions. So now instead of success I’m behind on every bill and desperately trying to find a new job while getting all kinds of urgent medical testing done and trying to figure out if I will even be able to work, all while worrying I will be homeless with my son soon.

    Attendance policy was 2 – 5 minutes late was 2 points, 5 – 15 minutes late was 5 points, anything after 15 minutes was 10 points. If you called off, you had to call the store at least 2 hours before your shift and speak to a manager. Then you had to post your shift on our scheduling app, THEN message the group chat with the shift as well unless you had already found your own coverage. If you didn’t get your shift covered yourself, it was automatically 10 points. To get your shift covered you had to go to the daily schedule and see who wasn’t scheduled that day and call or message everyone to ask if they would take your shift. Half the crew only speaks Spanish so if like me, you do not, then you also would have to use Google translate for half of these conversations.

    30 points was a 1 week suspension, 40 points automatic termination. Also, if you clocked in late because the opening manager was late you still got points even if you were at the store on time. And if you were an opener and woke up sick, you couldn’t call the store 2 hours before your shift because nobody was there, and the phones didn’t turn on until 2 hours after the openers arrived for the day. But corporate wouldn’t fix that.

    Anyways, I got severe flu, and had 19 points already (should have been 10 but they always magically forgot to adjust mine) and of course nobody would take my shifts and I was simply too sick to continue calling and messaging people and translating conversations. I could barely stay awake to check on my son who was also sick. Then I was given the option of swapping shifts with someone to keep my job, but I was unable to work on the shift I swapped for because I WAS IN THE HOSPITAL. I got secondary bronchitis from the flu and was on an IV, breathing treatments, IV steroids, and getting X-rays and CT scans to make sure it wasn’t pneumonia. I was so sick the Dr said I couldn’t work for 10 days and wrote me a note. Also the CT and blood scans found my thyroid is massively enlarged and compressing basically all my pipes in my throat, and full of possibly cancerous nodules, my liver is failing probably due to untreated thyroid disease, I have osteoporosis, coronary hardening (also probably from untreated thyroid) AND my spine is collapsing in on my spinal cord in 3 places and one of the places it’s compressing the cord so much I’m at risk of paralysis!

    I sent all this to my boss and the response was to suspend me for a week, then after my suspension to try and get me to come in for a “chat” which when I pressed for clarification, the chat was actually going to be a public firing. I at least avoided that and didn’t have to be publicly humiliated.

    At that job, I was the oldest person there (I’m 43 and the next oldest employee was 37) and I also was the only very fat person there. So I think a lot of the mistreatment I got was due to those two things. Some of the things that happened:

    1) I initially applied for a management job starting at $17 an hour. (team member was advertised as starting at $15 an hour) I have 7 years of restaurant management experience but was told in my interview they don’t hire anyone in as managers everyone starts as a team member which is $12 an hour. I desperately needed a job and so I was able to negotiate $13 an hour. BUT

    2) on my first day I was told since I started at a higher wage than what they usually start team members at, I OWED them the difference. So for every benchmark I would meet for the first 5 benchmarks I would not get the corresponding raise (0.20 cent raises per benchmark)

    3) even after I “paid back” the difference I still did not get a raise. My benchmarks were always much higher than anyone else and they would change every time I met them.

    4) 2 months after I started they hired 3 people with way less experience than me as managers… But would not even promote me to keyholder.

    5) people would complain about my performance constantly and when I would prove the complaints had no merit nothing would be done about the complainer and I would still be treated like I made a mistake. (Example: a manager complained I did not wash my prep dishes before I left. I did not even work that day, it was a completely different person. But for the rest of the time I was there I got constant reminders about cleaning up after myself while the actual person who left the mess never even got one reminder)

    6) I got a verbal warning once because I was scheduled 9 – 4 and worked 9 – 4. The manager in charge that day felt that I should have been done sooner even though that manager had never done prep and had no idea how long it actually takes. They also did not say anything to me, and I had no idea they had complained until a week later when I got the verbal warning.

    7) immediately after getting the verbal warning for basically working my scheduled shift, I got another verbal warning because on a different day I had less prep and finished early so the manager in charge that day told me to go home when I was done. (So I got a verbal warning for working my full scheduled shift then the boss took a breath and gave me another verbal warning for leaving early on a different shift because I was done and a manager told me to.)

    8) I was the fastest at prep and was good enough to train everyone else but somehow I was never fast enough.

    9) Everyone else got acknowledgements on their yearly anniversary and got a cake and a certificate and announcement. Guess what I got? If you guessed NOTHING you would be correct.

    Now with being fired because other people wouldn’t take my shifts even though I was sick I am just so disheartened and have major anxiety about what to even say to new potential employers about why I was fired, because I worry it’s going to look like I was a problem the whole time I worked there.

    1. PhD survivor*

      I’m so sorry to hear you got fired for being sick. I don’t know if others can weigh in, but is it legal to fire someone for being in the hospital? Is it possible you have some protections under the ADA? It might be worth checking with a lawyer. If you can’t afford it, there may be a legal aid organization in your area that could provide advice. Hope you will be feeling better soon!

      1. No Achoo for You*

        it’s totally legal and my unemployment claim is probably going to be denied because I technically was fired for attendance policy violations. flu and bronchitis aren’t covered by ADA. I’ve spoken to unemployment and my labor board. I’m in Ohio and we have almost zero employee rights.

        1. Neutral Janet*

          This is so awful, and I’m so sorry it’s happening to you. I know you said bronchitis and flu aren’t covered by ADA but what about the more serious spinal and thyroid issues? I hope you find some resources that can help you, this just sounds like such a horribly stressful and scary situation. Also enraging! I’m so mad on your behalf at your employer (and the state of Ohio for not having better worker protections!)

    2. Mid*

      Like an earlier letter this week, you can say that you were fired due to health complications which are now managed. You don’t have to say performance/attendance issues directly.

      You’ll also want to master a way of talking about your previous job without sounding bitter/angry/upset/emotional at all (even though you are very right to be upset about how you were treated!) You’ll need to make sure you can discuss it very neutrally and professionally.

      If you want to move away from retail/food, temp agencies can help get you office experience. It’s not great pay, but some agencies do offer benefits if you’ve worked with them for a while, and even just a few months at a temp gig in an office setting can get your foot in the door for regular office work. I’m not sure if you have any sort of post-secondary degree, but temping also usually doesn’t require it, and once you have any experience at all, most offices don’t need it either (even though they’ll often ask for it in job ads.) And in general, office jobs won’t have such penalizing attendance and sick policies. (Sure, some offices will, but those are outliers and not the norm, and are not good places to work. Policies like you listed are far too common in service industry jobs.)

    3. Anonymous Demi ISFJ*

      That place was full of bees in bananapants!!
      There’s a script in today’s five questions/five answers post for someone with a similar question about talking to interviewers about getting fired – I hope that might be helpful to you.

    4. Tina LW*

      I am sorry you went through that.

      Having this experience has taught me that managing a superstar is it’s own challenge since people like to tear down a tall poppy.

      1. AD*

        Well, no — in a healthy company with normal colleagues, people don’t lie and create rumors to sabotage a star employee. I’m sorry to keep harping on this, but your company sounds like a toxic environment with some awful people. This isn’t normal, LW!

  17. Colorado*

    Yeah, I don’t think all the nasty stuff that was done to Tina launched her into a higher career track. Tina would have done that regardless but it’s a shame she had to endure harassment in the process. And Dave is not a model employee. He’s a bully and deranged person. OP – I think your thoughts are skewed from staying in this toxic environment. Glad to hear the update for Tina’s sake and that she’s still thriving.

  18. Southern Violet*

    Just a note on 1. NO the nasty stuff did NOT launch Tina into a better track..Ot almost destroyed her career, and OP 1 was part of that mess. TINA got Tina on a better track DESPITE the horribly unfair actions of everyone involved, including OP. OP isnt off the hook and shouldn’t console herself with nice falsehoods over their part of harming Tina. Every good thing that happened to her was because of HER. Every bad thing is due to OP and company.

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