were we wrong not to interview a volunteer for a paid job?

by Alison Green on March 25, 2025

A reader writes:

I would really love your opinion on how we handled this hiring process — and on the subsequent fallout.

I work for a public library that has a very large volunteer base and a small paid staff. When we have a job opening, which is rare, volunteers are welcome to apply. We traditionally grant them a phone interview (i.e., they make the first cut) as a courtesy, though that is not official policy. A few volunteers have been hired over the years, most recently about three years ago.

One volunteer, Stephanie, has applied twice (two years apart) and made it to an in-person interview (second round) both times. Enough time had passed after the first rejection that we gave her the second opportunity, and to her credit, she does have an impressive resume of high-level administrative work and did well in the short phone screenings. However, in both in-person interviews, we found that she was rambling and unfocused despite our best efforts, and she expressed hesitations about performing some key parts of the job (working under pressure, multi-tasking). She also made some offhand comments that came off as elitist and lacking compassion, and we really don’t feel she’s a fit for our community-focused, fast-paced environment, nor would any of us particularly look forward to working with her.

The reason we gave for rejecting her both times was the standard “there were candidates whose skills and experience were a better fit,” though we took extra care with the wording due to our ongoing relationship.

Stephanie just applied for a third time (nine months after the last rejection). A volunteer has never applied more than once, so we have no precedent for this. We (hiring committee of three) already knew she was a “no” and did not invite her to a phone interview this time. We felt that continuing to interview her would send the wrong message.

As the hiring manager, I sent her a kind, personalized rejection that she had not made it to the interview round this time, citing the large and competitive applicant pool (true), and reiterated that we value her and her volunteer work. Although she had told the volunteer supervisor there would be no hard feelings if she didn’t get the job, Stephanie did NOT take it well.

Long story short, over the course of four weeks, she has approached our director in public expressing her shock and disappointment at not being interviewed, sent an angry and accusatory email directed at me for being “unfair,” made passive-aggressive comments about our new hire, and accosted the director at work with an angry diatribe about how she “can do the job” and had been owed a courtesy interview. Along the way, she made a racist comment about a previous hire (“I know you hired her because she’s Black, but I think that’s great”), claimed to be more qualified than any of our recent hires, and “threatened” to stop going above and beyond in her volunteer work (okay?).

I’ve never seen anyone lose their cool like this over a hiring decision. At least she has validated for us that we made the right call, I suppose.

We truly want to learn from this and regret that there are hard feelings that might have been avoided. Were we wrong in not granting Stephanie a courtesy interview a third time, as she believes? Should we have been more direct about the reasons when we rejected her the last time (or this time)? And if she were to apply again down the road, as she said she still plans to do, what do we do?

It doesn’t sound like you did anything wrong. You’ve interviewed her twice and knew she wasn’t going to be a competitive candidate, so chose not to lead her on or misuse her time. She’s not owed repeated shots at a job just because she volunteers, and a lot of people in her shoes would prefer not to have their time wasted or their hopes raised if you already knew you wouldn’t hire them.

If you could go back and redo anything, I’d say it would have been better to have a conversation with her where you provided some feedback on why you weren’t going to interview her, in recognition of the fact that she volunteers with you and has shown a long-running interest in being hired. But the fact that you didn’t do that in no way warrants her response! (And it sounds like you did send a personalized note, not just a form rejection.)

Can you have a conversation with her about it now? Given the way she’s been acting since, it sounds like you’ve got to do that to address both her frustration and the fact that she can’t go on being so disruptive about it. Ideally in doing that, you’d give her some feedback about why you don’t think she’s the right fit for the job. “Rambling and unfocused” can be tough to give feedback to a candidate on (although not impossible), but “hesitations about performing key parts of the job” is much easier — as is the part about making comments that aren’t aligned with your community-focused culture. You’re not looking to debate any of this with her, of course, but because she’s a long-time volunteer, it would be respectful to share those concerns with her so that she has a better understanding of why she was passed over.

Depending on how that conversation goes, you might also need to tell her point-blank that she can’t keep accosting people about the decision and to ask whether she wants to continue volunteering, knowing that that behavior can’t continue.

You may also like:
{ 194 comments }

{ 194 comments… read them below or add one }

  1. Saint Elmo*

    It’s unfortunate for her, but ultimately if you were to interview her again it would be a waste of both your time and hers. You did something very kind by offering a personalized rejection, so don’t feel like you’re in the wrong here LW.

    Reply ↓
    1. Consonance*

      I come across a surprising number of people who are under the impression that being able to do the job means that they should get the job. I very much understand as an individual, but as someone who hires people, most of the people who apply (not all!) could do the job. But I have 20 applicants and one position, so…. most don’t get the job.

      And as a librarian, there are a good number of people who think they can do library work who aren’t right for the job or aren’t qualified for the job, but they can’t see that because they aren’t actually sufficiently familiar with what the work entails or how skilled it may be.

      I can see both of those things coming into play when it comes to a volunteer, who thinks she has an edge on other candidates and also sees *just* enough of the work to think “I can do that!” Take that alongside clearly being a bit unrealistic, and we find ourselves in this situation.

      But yes, this may have soured the volunteer relationship, and that’s perfectly okay.

      Reply ↓
  2. Anon (and on and on)*

    Yeah, you need to be prepared to lose her as a volunteer. She’s proven that she’ll act out in inappropriate ways.

    Reply ↓
    1. Some IT Guy*

      After this, it may be best to end her volunteering proactively. If she made one racist comment, she will make another, and it may be sometime when patrons can hear.

      Reply ↓
      1. Willis*

        Yeah, I think the right answer is to end her volunteer role as well, and tell her she won’t be considered for future roles.

        Reply ↓
      2. Pine Tree*

        This was my first reaction to all of this – she should be let go of her volunteer position. “Acting out” is one thing, but the racist comment is a fatal strike against her being part of the org in any way.

        Reply ↓
        1. Crencestre*

          “Acting out” can be dangerous of itself, especially in a culture in which it’s about as easy to get hold of a gun as it is to get a pack of chewing gum.

          My vote would be against engaging in a discussion with Stephanie at all – there’s too much potential for that to escalate, and she’s already shown that she’s willing to do just that. Thank her for her volunteer service, take her off the volunteer schedule, let her know that her last day was today and show her the door. Do NOT prolong the interaction with her – thanks, goodbye, and that’s it.

          Harsh? Maybe! But a lot better than allowing her to become more agitated and start spewing racist insults within earshot of the public.

          Reply ↓
      3. Box of Rain*

        Agreed. With the way she’s bene behaving, I don’t think you can afford to continue having her represent the organization. In my experience, letting things like this go never, ever goes well.

        Signed, a Former Volunteer Coordinator

        Reply ↓
    2. Annony*

      I don’t think they should simply be prepared to lose her as a volunteer. They should insist on it. They already determined she wasn’t a culture fit and now she is being disruptive and racist on top of it. She can’t stay in any capacity.

      Reply ↓
    3. Dido*

      It’s pretty shocking that the LW would continue to allow someone that they describe as racist, elitist, and lacking compassion to volunteer at a public library. Especially since they already have a large volunteer base, so it’s not like they rely on her

      Reply ↓
      1. Magnolia Clyde*

        Exactly! Your first point alone is spot-on, and that would be enough to make it clear that she needs to be relieved of her volunteer duties.

        It sounds like they aren’t hurting for (presumably more capable) volunteers, so it seems like there’s not any reason to have her continue volunteering.

        Reply ↓
      2. RunShaker*

        I can’t get past the racist comment she made and then add her other disruptive actions, I too think she shouldn’t be a volunteer. If you decided to end her volunteer status, it would be good to list some of the bigger issues. I doubt she will respond well but you can document the file that you had the conversation. It’s all on Stephanie.

        Reply ↓
        1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          The organization has a responsibility to protect racialized staff, volunteers, and patrons from this type of thing.

          Reply ↓
    4. Reality.Bites*

      I actually think it’s getting very close to or even past where she needs to be fired from the volunteer position

      Reply ↓
    5. Hyaline*

      I would absolutely not waste any more time placating or attempting to smooth things over with her, that’s for sure.

      Reply ↓
    6. I Have RBF*

      Sometimes you need to fire volunteers.

      Managing volunteers is often harder than managing paid employees because there is no “stick” of writeups and PIPs. But if a volunteer is being problematic, you absolutely can and should “fire” them.

      Source: Me, having managed volunteers and had to fire one.

      Reply ↓
    1. Venus*

      It’s hard to say that, because “we thought you’d be likely to fall apart and behave badly” looks really bad, but that was my first thought too. Though if Stephanie has reacted badly in the past, prior to applying, then I would definitely mention it as part of feedback.

      Reply ↓
        2. Velawciraptor*

          100%. That’s the one thing I’d add to Alison’s already excellent advice: letting this woman know that publicly accosting people, racist fits (!), and general tantruming about not getting her way has killed any willingness of anyone to reconsider her in the future because she’s demonstrated several concerning traits and behaviors that indicate she does not have the professional judgment or temperament needed in your office.

          I’d be prepared to lose her as a volunteer, but it sounds like she’s so in her feelings, there’s diminishing returns on keeping her around even in that position.

          Reply ↓
          1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

            Yeah, she wasn’t a good candidate before this, hence the two rejections. But she really put on her bananapants when she was declined for the third interview, and you clearly dodged a huge bullet.

            Reply ↓
    2. Ellis Bell*

      OP had some idea they weren’t up to snuff, but they say this reaction is a total surprise. I think it’s actually stronger to go in to the discussion saying this behaviour is shocking and out of character.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        I don’t know. Maybe it’s more obvious in hindsight, but they say they had concerns based on the interviews that Stephanie’s soft skills weren’t up to par, and, well…

        Reply ↓
        2. Ellis Bell*

          This is true. Maybe a two prong approach. “While this is shocking…there were signs in your interview”. But that would probably make her go off like a Catherine Wheel.

          Reply ↓
          1. MsM*

            Honestly, I think the message can just be “At this point, the interviews are irrelevant, because this is not behavior we can accept from someone we’re comfortable having represent us in any capacity.”

            Reply ↓
              1. Reality.Bites*

                I was thinking that there’s a good chance she ended up not only relived of volunteering, but banned from the premises as well.

                Reply ↓
    3. Artemesia*

      Reasons to someone like this are just fodder to further pick a fight. I’d encourage her to volunteer elsewhere.

      Reply ↓
      2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        True that. Though there’s an argument for at least trying and being willing to just end the conversation if it becomes clear that it’s not going to be useful or productive.

        Reply ↓
  4. ladyhouseoflove*

    If there’s one thing I don’t miss working as a public librarian, it’s the volunteers with entitlement issues. Now most of the volunteers were great but the 5% we had were the stuff of nightmares.

    I wouldn’t trust her around the hire she is so sure was hired due to her race. If you lose her as a volunteer, don’t ruminate too long over it. In fact, I wouldn’t be too shocked if more stuff came out about her. It feels like it was a mask-off moment for her, her anger and that racist comment she made.

    Reply ↓
    1. Madame Desmortes*

      Yes, please check in with your Black colleague, OP, and let them know that if Stephanie hassles them, Stephanie will be out the door.

      I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that Stephanie has already done so, in fact, in which case Stephanie needs to be out the door.

      Reply ↓
      2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        I think if Stephanie is already telling other people that the reason the employee was hired is that they’re Black, we’re past checking in. The employee shouldn’t have to tell LW “yes, it bothers me that she thinks I’m an affirmative action hire.” That’s an unfair burden on them when they might not be comfortable rocking the boat on discrimination issues.

        Stephanie needs to be out the door for making racist comments whether or not that employee complains. It’s unacceptable anywhere, but especially a community-focused public space like a library.

        Reply ↓
        4. The Unspeakable Queen Lisa*

          I know! I don’t understand why the answer isn’t, “Fire her as a volunteer.” Why is everyone like, “Oh, she might leave if you tell her to stop” – good? But why are we passively waiting for her to flounce out?

          Reply ↓
          1. JSPA*

            If you’ll excuse “possible answers to what’s maybe a rhetorical question”:

            She muddied the waters sufficiently by saying she’s in favor of affirmative action?

            People find her incidental racism to be part and parcel of her general poor grasp of how to behave?

            Some of the people who’d make the firing decision are unclear that “not in our institution!” is enough of a reason to draw some of the exact same line(s) for volunteers as for paid staff?

            Some of them have had similar thoughts inside their heads, and are therefore too ready to cut slack for someone who says the thing out loud?

            Her family include many volunteers or donors, and they’re worried about losing them?

            So many possible reasons.

            Reply ↓
            1. Reality.Bites*

              I’ll add to all of your very good answers, the possibility that they’ve never had to consider firing a volunteer before, and/or perhaps thinking of it like a termination of a paid employee, and whatever legal and institutional steps and rules there are around that.

              Reply ↓
          2. Dawbs*

            firing volunteers is fraught.

            I’ve done it; I’ll do it again, but in many ways it’s harder than an employee. with employees, you’re ending a mural benefit (labor is traded for money, everybody wins) . With volunteers there isn’t mutual benefit- labor is given for hard to articulate public good.

            When you end that, they hear you saying the cost of dealing with them at all is higher than the benefit they bring you. And if someone is fired, it’s often a ‘layoff”, you can spin that as lack of work. A volunteer firing can’t be spun that way- which often leads to the volunteer creating a story that is very different than the reality, and announcing it from the rooftops (which puts the org in a bad spot with how to address it).

            I’m not saying she shouldn’t be fired as a volunteer, but it does mean it’s be looping in higher ups and deciding how to deal with the firing and subsequent fallout before i did.
            (i hate firing volunteers. hate. which, FTR, has made me more careful in volunteer interviews! most of them still get offered the position, but i spell out expectations and the cruddy parts really clearly. I love our org, but we are not for everyone!)

            Reply ↓
            1. RedinSC*

              Yes, “firing” a volunteer is absolutely terrible. It’s so fraught. Like you, I’ve done it, but it’s really rough.

              Reply ↓
              1. I Have RBF*

                Yes, it sucks to have to fire a volunteer. But in many cases, the fallout from NOT firing them could be way worse. Like the racist bit affecting paid staff.

                Reply ↓
        5. goddessoftransitory*

          1000% this.

          Even if Stephanie hasn’t said anything yet, hearing “Oh, BTW, Steph’s been expressing her disappointment through racist cracks” isn’t going to bolster this new employee’s confidence in the library as a workplace, especially if Stephanie is permitted to keep volunteering.

          Reply ↓
    2. pally*

      I wouldn’t be very comfortable with Stephanie around the patrons either.

      (assuming the volunteers interact with patrons)

      Reply ↓
    3. Mouse named Anon*

      Honestly regarding the racist remarks and her harassing the employees…I think it’s time Stephanie was dismissed as volunteer.

      Reply ↓
    4. OP Here*

      This is irrelevant to the real issue at hand, but for informational purposes the staff member she made the racist/DEI comment about is no longer with us (left due to a significant life change/family reasons), and as far as I know never met Stephanie. Yes, this was definitely a “mask-off” moment. I was picking up on something in the interviews, but it was intangible, and now I see what was brewing beneath. For context, Stephanie is a white woman, retiree from an impressive university career, aligns herself with being very socially/politically liberal. I plan to reiterate this elsewhere – but to be clear I hear everyone loud and clear about terminating the relationship with Stephanie, and I appreciate the reality check.

      Reply ↓
  5. Ellis Bell*

    I feel like the interview scratched below the polite veneer of this person’s surface and came up with “elitist”. The rejection scratched the surface further and came up with “racist” and “entitled”. I could absolutely understand see her being very disappointed, but hitting out aggressively at people when things go south is not what any of you want in a colleague. I’m honestly surprised you’re all still open to her volunteering.

    Reply ↓
    2. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, I’ve been disappointed about stuff but my knee-jerk response never went to racist and elitist. Be glad you got a peek at this without hiring her.

      Reply ↓
    3. Starbuck*

      Right, even if she is gonna overreact and be inappropriate… there are so many ways you can do that without being racist. Like, so many examples in the letters here of people being bitter at not getting promotions (basically how she sees this) but the racism on top is a whole extra step and isn’t just “attitude.” In my org, we would fire a volunteer who made these comments.

      Reply ↓
      1. StarTrek Nutcase*

        I’ve worked several jobs where Affirmative Action was in force and resulted in hiring a less experienced or skilled applicant. HR would insist the “most appropriate” applicant was to be hired, not necessarily the most qualified. Most times the hire turned out fine but as someone required to acclimate and train new hires, I admit I resented having to spend my limited availability teaching hard &/or soft skill that other applicants already demonstrably knew. BUT I definitely agree the LW’s volunteer had several red flags that should result in being barred as a volunteer.

        Reply ↓
    4. learnedthehardway*

      Agreed – it would have been one thing if she had expressed disappointment to the Executive Director and if she had requested feedback. As a volunteer – even one interviewed and passed over twice before – it would have been reasonable for her to think she would be interviewed this time, or at least have been provided specific feedback on why she was not interviewed BEFORE a hiring decision was made. Just saying “In our prior interviews with you for this role, you were not willing to take on X and Y functions. These are part of the position, so we cannot move forward” – that would have been enough.

      I tend to think that she should have been courtesy interviewed, and provided some developmental feedback when she wasn’t chosen for the role. That’s a good practice with volunteers so they can feel engaged, respected, and retained.

      At this point, though, harassing the successful candidate, tirades, accusing other candidates of being affirmative action hires (and implying they were not qualified) – now it is time to part ways with her. I suspect you will find out later that other volunteers and staff have had negative experiences with her, and that they will be relieved she is gone.

      Reply ↓
    5. OP Here*

      This is exactly how it felt like it unfolded. The comments section has been a very good wake up call about Stephanie’s volunteer status. The last outburst was last week and we are still a little shellshocked.

      Reply ↓
  6. Aphrodite*

    I wonder if any of her feelings, statements, or actions came out even in subtle ways even when she was volunteering .Did staff or other volunteers find her unpleasant to work with, or did she ever cause friction with her unhappiness over something? It doesn’t matter as far as your hiring decision but was her reaction to the rejection a surprise or not?

    Reply ↓
    1. OP Here*

      Stephanie’s volunteer work involves processing books before the library opens or occasionally behind the scenes. She does not interact with patrons. She is “nicey nice” and very outwardly friendly and a little airheaded-seeming. No friction. It would have been hard to pick up on these things given that kind of work and relatively few interactions. She used the phrase “those kinds of people” in one of her interviews which was a red flag for me… that’s the kind of elitism I was picking up on. Her reaction was a huge surprise, as she’d handled the last two well and had even approached the volunteer coordinator in advance to specifically tell her there would be no hard feelings if she didn’t get it.

      Reply ↓
  7. I'm just here for the cats!!*

    I think the company needs to take a hard look to see if she should even continue being a volunteer. S

    Reply ↓
  8. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

    Okay, is it just me? Because I saw “I know you hired her because she’s Black, but I think that’s great” and thought, you need to cut this woman loose as a volunteer. She’s calling one of your employees a diversity hire in the presence of other volunteers/employees (and who knows, maybe patrons), in a way that is a really passive-aggressive and backhanded (“aw, it’s so nice you gave the black person a chance). I was about to call that a micro aggression, but it’s pretty macro, honestly, and I would not trust that it’s her only bigoted moment. And this is public library serving presumably at least a somewhat diverse community. What else is she saying, and to whom?

    I feel like you need to protect your POC employee and patrons/other volunteers.

    Reply ↓
    1. MsM*

      Definitely not just you. I understand if OP needs to do some prep work with anyone Stephanie does have a good relationship with so Stephanie can’t poison the well with them, but I don’t think she can continue with the org.

      Reply ↓
      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Yeah, I honestly expected the response to cover how to transition her out, because that’s pretty frankly racist and condescending, and if LW has heard it, I imagine so have other people. It’s extremely undermining to the other employee.

        Reply ↓
        1. Kyrielle*

          And if somehow other people haven’t heard it and this was her first time trotting that line out…it won’t be the last, and she needs to go. If she feels she “got away with” or “was okay” saying that it will probably be said again.

          Reply ↓
    2. Hlao-roo*

      Not just you. I read through the other stuff (expressing her shock and disappointment at not being interviewed, sending an angry email, making passive-aggressive comments) and thought that all is all worthy of a conversation, and Stephanie could stay on as a volunteer if she stopped those behaviors. But when I got to “I know you hired her because she’s Black, but I think that’s great” I also went right to thinking “just cut her loose!”

      Reply ↓
    3. juliebulie*

      Yeah no it’s not just you. That line jumped out at me. What a thing to say. Stephanie has much to learn about professional behavior and I don’t think a library full of people is the place to do it. Not as an employee, and not as a volunteer.

      Reply ↓
      1. goddessoftransitory*

        What’s worse is, she’s apparently a retired person from a big career, which makes me think she sees the library work as “not worth” her most professional behavior, and that the patrons should cluster about like Dickensian orphans grateful for ha’pennies and gruel.

        And that’s not even touching the racism.

        Reply ↓
    8. Not Tom, Just Petty*

      I think years in the library has left OP inured to off the wall people. There are many “not quite right” people who are welcome to the library, because everyone* is welcome in the library. If you think the world is flat, if you think jelly beans are a super food, if you don’t know what the heck to think…please visit your local library…as a patron. As a volunteer, you represent the library and have to welcome everyone, because, see above.

      *abusive patrons that librarians were forced to tolerate is a thread for a Friday.

      Reply ↓
    9. OP Here*

      It’s not just you. Passive-aggression has shown to be one of Stephanie’s superpowers in this whole thing. I hear you loud and clear about severing the relationship. We’ve been so blindsided and perplexed by it all, and we need to focus back up on our values. Thank you to everyone for steering us to the very important issues at play here.

      Reply ↓
  9. commensally*

    It sounds like your system may be like mine, where hiring is centralized and may not involve the same people who are involved in a current employee/volunteer’s day-to-day. If that’s the case, my main advice in a situation like this – based on previous experience at my workplace, both as someone hired as a volunteer and as someone who supervised them – is to work more closely with the volunteer’s direct supervisor in a situation like this. Not necessarily after a first application but once it becomes clear that paid employment with you is a long-term goal for her, that’s something where you need to make sure that the messages she’s getting from her supervisor line up with what your system is actually going to do. It doesn’t sound like you’ve been in communication with her supervisor at all, and it’s entirely possible she’s being directly mentored into continuing to apply (it certainly seems *extremely* likely that she had every reason to believe she’d get another courtesy interview, if you’ve always done them before.)

    I do kind of side-eye the idea that you’ve never had a volunteer apply twice before! Have you always hired them before? We’ve had multiple volunteers apply for every opening for years until they finally either get employment elsewhere or manage to achieve the qualifications to be hired. Even if they have basically no chance of being hired, the repeated interviews and feedback after is a valuable way of helping them find their feet in the workforce.

    It’s a pretty common expectation in a situation like that that long-term volunteers will get a leg up in the hiring process – certainly not hiring them over more qualified candidates or against the hiring committee’s wishes! But extra mentorship from supervisors about how to maximize their chances and improve their skills, and a willingness to ask for and value the supervisor’s recommendation, is pretty standard. Have you talked to her supervisor at all about whether the supervisor thought she would be a good fit in the job, or what the supervisor could work with her on improving?

    At this point what you need to talk to the supervisor about is making it clear that after her blow-ups last time, she’s got basically no chance in this round of hiring, and needs to keep her head down and show a clear willingness to improve if she wants any chance. But if you’d checked in after the first interview you might have had a very different result.

    (Also at the point a volunteer was accosting the director making racist comments, *somebody* up the chain should be checking in with the supervisor anyway to figure out how this needs to be handled with her on the ground. If your volunteers aren’t set up such that there is someone filling that role, you should look into reorganizing that! But many volunteer supervisors/coordinators at branch level are thrown in with no training or experience in supervision and may need guidance dealing with a problem person, especially if there’s no clear procedure on firing a volunteer.)

    Reply ↓
    1. Academic Physics*

      I think you make an excellent point. I’d hope that this is a moment where the library re-evaluates their volunteer process.

      And good catch on the supervisor maybe saying something different about employment. So often I see that the advice for high-demand, low opportunity jobs is to volunteer until they have a position. It even worked for my father, and he does not technically have the right degree to be doing what he is doing (he was 1/2 way through when they hired him).

      Reply ↓
      1. commensally*

        Yeah, I feel pretty strongly about that because I was hired into my first library job after several years’ volunteering (while patchily employed and dealing with mental health issues).

        And then in my second day on the job (first full-time job at all, not supervisor level, not in the job description) I got told “Great! We’ve scheduled you tomorrow to interview some of the new volunteers you’ll be supervising!!” So… yeah. Keep an eye on what you’re doing with your volunteer supervisors.

        Reply ↓
  10. Chairman of the Bored*

    I suspect anything the library does with relation to Stephanie from this point forward will be judged (by her) to be “wrong” and used to justify further freak-outs.

    Reply ↓
  11. SSSSSSSSSS*

    Volunteering at an organization does not equal preferential treatment in the job interview process nor should it. Volunteering is often only available to folks who have the privilege of having extra time, reliable transportation, and enough income elsewhere to volunteer their time.

    I would handle this the same way I would a performance issue. Sit them down and explain that volunteering there does not give them any extra “leg up” in the application process and that their volunteering is not an exchange for preferential treatment. But then also set boundaries/expectations of their behavior going forward and if they continue to publicly criticize, they will be asked to no longer volunteer.

    Reply ↓
    1. commensally*

      Volunteering is often openly recommended in libraries as a way to improve your chances of hiring. We can argue about equity here, there are certainly many issues with that model, but often library volunteers who are applying for jobs are people who have time to volunteer because they are heavily struggling with finding employment for an assortment of reasons. Or people who are so passionate about breaking into the career that they’re willing to sacrifice for a way to get those 3+ years of experience for the entry level job.

      Regardless of anything else that may be customary in a system, volunteering gets you experience in related skills, networking with current employees, and (should get you!) familiarity with with the hiring process and standards. You shouldn’t be skipping volunteers ahead of qualified applicants elsewhere, but you should at minimum be respecting the work they’ve put in for you to the extent of treating them like any other internal applicant. If you don’t, you will lose all of your most qualified and committed volunteers.

      Reply ↓
      1. Cthulhu's Librarian*

        Volunteering is recommended to a certain subset of MLIS holders that failed to get practical experience during or before seeking the degree. It is almost never recommended as a way to get your foot in the door for non-professionals, except by a small subset of librarians who think its acceptable to use volunteers to perform work they ought to be paying for.

        Those exploitative members of my profession will never actually hire a volunteer into a non-professional role, so usually you volunteer at an institution you don’t want to permanently work for.

        Reply ↓
        1. commensally*

          It is heavily recommended in my system for people who are interested in our entry-level no-degree-required jobs, including the min-wage part-time ones, and we regularly hire former volunteers into them.

          (How do you expect the MLS seekers to get that practical experience before or during the degree when it’s often just as difficult to get the non-MLS library jobs without experience?)

          Reply ↓
    2. iglwif*

      I’m really sceptical that Stephanie doesn’t also have issues as a volunteer. “I know you hired her because she’s Black”?! Nope.

      It doesn’t sound like OP has anything to do with managing Stephanie as a volunteer, but it does sound like enough people have had negative experiences with her recently that it makes sense to rethink having her around.

      … around that new hire, in particular.

      Reply ↓
    3. Wendy Darling*

      Ideally the “leg up” working as a volunteer would give you is that the people interviewing you would have already seen you do similar work so they have a better idea of how you’d perform than they would an external applicant.

      However, that only works out if how you perform is… well. If you’ve been a pain in the butt as a volunteer nobody is gonna be hyped about hiring you.

      Reply ↓
      1. MigraineMonth*

        Yeah, Alison has said in the past that interviewing as an internal candidate means that the hiring committee often has more direct knowledge of your work. Which can be a good thing *or* a very bad thing.

        Reply ↓
  12. Curious Cat*

    I rarely say this but I would love to hear Stephanie’s POV on this. Your letter reads to me like you have built a case against her generally and had never planned to hire her (in the past, present or future). I think you should have been up front about that in the last round.

    I can see why she’s upset: in her eyes she’s good enough to work for free and go above and beyond expectations (her words according to this) even though you say… “She also made some offhand comments that came off as elitist and lacking compassion, and we really don’t feel she’s a fit for our community-focused, fast-paced environment, nor would any of us particularly look forward to working with her…” If this is the environment, why is she still there even as a volunteer if she is such a bad fit?

    I also think the racist comment should have been dealt with when it happened as it is highly inappropriate. But instead you’ve allowed her to continue to volunteer and keep her hopes up that she could be possibly hired in the future?

    It doesn’t sound like anyone likes her or her work so why is she still there? I mean that as gently as possible because I truly believe you are focused on the wrong issue of hiring when it should be about telling Stephanie that perhaps your entire organization isn’t good fit even for volunteering positions based on what you’ve written above.

    Reply ↓
    1. Chairman of the Bored*

      My standards are much lower for free labor than they are for somebody I am paying to do a job.

      Reply ↓
        1. CityMouse*

          Where I live library volunteering is competitive and highly desired, so it’s hard to keep someone with red flags on when many people would love the volunteer position.

          Reply ↓
    2. Saturday*

      The case against her was that she didn’t perform well during the interview. Standards are higher for paid work than for volunteer work.

      A lot of volunteers don’t even want to be hired, so I don’t see how allowing her to continue to volunteer somehow keeps her hopes up – she was turned down for the job twice before this.

      Reply ↓
      1. Lisa*

        Also she didn’t perform well in an interview not just once but twice, so you can’t even blame it on nerves or having a bad day. And voicing concerns about key parts of the job is also not going to help.

        Reply ↓
    3. Dust Bunny*

      Whatever she does as a volunteer might not be as affected. If she’s a shelver or something, it would be lower-contact with patrons and not involve so much multitasking.

      Reply ↓
    4. MsM*

      I’ve met a lot of Stephanies. They’re hard to fire as volunteers once they get established, because they are hardworking (often with flexible schedules), and enthusiastic about the mission…and if they are unhappy about something, it very quickly becomes A Big Problem for everyone. But they’re not good employee prospects, because they don’t have a realistic idea of what actually working for the organization would entail. Including that it can’t be A Big Problem when they’re unhappy about things.

      Reply ↓
    5. Northbayteky*

      As a former library IT person, volunteers were not allowed to do any tasks that fell in the range of paid workers. That was a union requirement. If management could get away with staffing for free, they would. So all work checking in and shelving and the like was not allowed to be done by volunteers. I’m not entirely certain what tasks they did, something along the lines of creating displays and accepting donations for the “Friends of the Library” book sales.
      As for changing their hiring process, I would start with not auto inviting volunteers unless they otherwise meet the criteria.

      Reply ↓
      1. CityMouse*

        That’s funny because I have a friend who is employed by a library and displays are one of her duties.

        Reply ↓
        1. Recovering Librarian*

          In my experience, the Friends of the Library groups were separate organizations that raised money for library programs and handled their own volunteers. They would do the book sale displays, but staff did the collection displays. We did have some direct volunteer programs, but usually only for teens.

          Reply ↓
    6. Koala*

      I think it would depend on the nature of the work involved. Maybe she’s volunteering doing something like sorting materials, while the positions she’s applied for are more public facing, for example.

      Reply ↓
    7. Sloanicota*

      My take on this is that, by not being honest about why Stephanie wasn’t hired in the past, you’ve made this feel more shady/suspicious than it is – because you’re dancing around the truth with the “many qualified applicants” boilerplate, and she can tell something’s wrong and it’s not adding up, and that makes people start wondering if something shady happened.

      Reply ↓
    8. OP Here*

      I appreciate this. I think this is how Stephanie views it. I went back and re-read my last rejection to her (9 mos ag0). Turns out I was way too nice/pandering in trying to respect her volunteer work and all the time she’d given us. I can see why she would have re-applied after all the nice things I said about her. I own that 100% and see the mistake now. The truth is the volunteer work is completely different from the paid work. She does not seem to have a good perspective on this, and it is our mistake in not making that distinction clear. Before the outbursts, she was pleasant as a volunteer interacting with the few people behind the scenes. We liked her in that role of handling books and chatting with other volunteers for a couple hours once a week. I cannot picture her trying to answer a patron’s question concisely or not freaking out under pressure, despite her assurance that she “can handle it.” The personal reasons for us not wanting to work with her (before all this) were that she rambles on and on and is hard to communicate with and has an airheaded, wishy-washy kind of demeanor (plus, for me, I had my guard up for some condescending, elitist kind of phrases that had slipped out). We are more of a decisive, quick, patron-first, problem-solving group and she would frankly drive us nuts. That’s a really hard thing to put into words, so at the time I took the easy route and just told her others were a better fit. I should have been more fair to her and found a more honest way to let her know why she wasn’t being selected.

      Reply ↓
  14. Pay no attention...*

    As Alison said, “You’re not looking to debate any of this with her…” but I think that she definitely is looking to debate this with you and that’s why she’ll keep applying. Her comments and aggressive behavior IMO are enough to end her volunteering.

    Reply ↓
  15. MicroManagered*

    she made a racist comment about a previous hire (“I know you hired her because she’s Black, but I think that’s great”),

    Sounds like she should be released from her volunteer duties as well…

    Reply ↓
    1. Wombats and Tequila*

      Right? It sounds like she thinks the new hire is unqualified based on race. Volunteer is extremely likely to undermine New Hire and inject a racist mentality into the organization, if she hasn’t already. She needs to find a new bookish hobby, such as reading thoughtful, in-depth history books written by reliable scholars.

      Reply ↓
  16. Aggretsuko*

    Unfortunately, being vague and polite as to why she didn’t get hired didn’t get through here. “There were better candidates” makes her think maybe she’ll do better on a third round. If she’s really unsuitable and would never get hired, maybe that had to be spelled out further :(

    Reply ↓
    1. Sloanicota*

      +1 this is when a failure to communicate kindly and directly comes back to bite you. Not that it would guarantee a comfortable conversation or that Stephanie would be happy about it, but by being evasive you’re making it worse.

      Reply ↓
      1. MsM*

        I truly don’t believe there’s anything OP could have said that would have mollified Stephanie other than “congratulations; when can you start?” In fact, applicants like Stephanie are exactly why hiring managers have to be so cagey in their responses: because you can never be sure when you’re going to get someone who’s going to confront the CEO and anyone else whose contact information they can get their hands on, and you don’t want to tell them anything they might try and spin into a case that they have been treated unfairly.

        Reply ↓
        1. OP Here*

          After much thought I really agree with this. I was all ready to say we messed up by not giving her the “real” reasons, but I’m not sure that would have been a good idea in the end, given her reaction. One error I do see – I went back and re-read my last rejection email (9 mos ago), and it left the door open too wide and was too complimentary (about her as a volunteer, but I see how she would have taken that as about her as a candidate). I definitely own that mistake. Now that I know how Stephanie reacted to this rejection, if we’d met with her and/or been truly honest, she would have argued every single point (as she is now after the fact), and it would have been as ugly. During the recent outburst, she admitted she stalked our past two hires on LinkedIn so she could argue how her resume is better. I think it would have blown up either way.

          Reply ↓
  17. iglwif*

    I’m really sceptical that Stephanie doesn’t also have issues as a volunteer. “I know you hired her because she’s Black”?! Nope.

    It doesn’t sound like OP has anything to do with managing Stephanie as a volunteer, but it does sound like enough people have had negative experiences with her recently that it makes sense to rethink having her around.

    … around that new hire, in particular.

    Reply ↓
    1. ladyhouseoflove*

      Oh believe me, they are. They are also the workplaces where I had to dab blood out of my sweaters and have 9-1-1 on speed dial.

      Reply ↓
        2. CityMouse*

          I can’t speak to this poster’s experience but I have a friend who works at a library and what people don’t realize is how much the library provides a haven for people who otherwise fall through the cracks. So a large number of their patrons are homeless. They actually have an on staff social worker and visits from a nurse because it’s actually one of the few places they can get resources to some people. My friend has been trained in administering narcan, for instance, and some of her colleagues have actually given it.

          There’s a whole debate about the issue of libraries filling gaps in social services and how that stresses the system, which you can read more on.

          Reply ↓
          1. Koala*

            Yes. When our downtown library remodeled a few years ago, the renovations had to be put on hold while the city patched together a day center where the homeless people who typically spent the day at the library could go.

            Reply ↓
        3. iglwif*

          I can’t speak for ladyhouseoflove’s workplace/s but where I live, public libraries aren’t just a place you go to get books, they’re also where people who don’t have a computer go to use one, where people with no access to washrooms go to use one, where people who don’t have a consistent roof over their head go to keep warm on cold days or cool on really hot days … the public library is free and open to everyone. That means anything could happen, although most of the time it doesn’t.

          Reply ↓
        4. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          If you think of it less as a library and more as a public place where literally anyone can show up, the bar to kicking them out is high, and the bar to permanently trespassing them is even higher, and that may help explain it. Like a city park in which you keep a bunch of machines that can stream porn. If you can imagine it happening in a big city park, it happens in libraries too.

          Reply ↓
        5. Hlao-roo*

          Also not ladyhouseoflove, but if you want to read more about what working in libraries is like, check out these links:

          https://www.askamanager.org/2015/10/interview-with-a-prison-librarian.html

          https://www.askamanager.org/2016/10/open-thread-october-28-29-2016.html#comment-1247214

          https://www.askamanager.org/2022/06/open-thread-june-24-25-2022.html#comment-3911570

          There’s a past letter about a letter-writer getting blood on her shirt here:

          https://www.askamanager.org/2023/08/my-employer-confiscated-my-favorite-shirt-whose-job-is-it-to-address-burn-out-and-more.html

          That letter isn’t from a library, but I can easily imagine a similar situation happening at a library.

          Reply ↓
        6. ladyhouseoflove*

          I’ve had to intervene in domestic violence, I’ve almost been assaulted, I’ve had to get help when someone passed out, etc.

          Libraries have been used often as Band-Aid when communities lack certain needed services. Unfortunately, it’s been getting to the point of people thinking a single Band-Aid can cover an entire broken dam.

          Most librarians are both underpaid and overworked. And it’s getting worse. https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/31/well/mind/librarian-trauma-homeless-drugs-mental-illness.html

          Reply ↓
        7. MigraineMonth*

          Not to mention the book bans, criminalization of events like drag readings, protesters, people who show up to film librarians and patrons as “first amendment defenders”…

          Reply ↓
          1. Anon for this*

            Yep. I’ve done dox defense training for librarians before, and I got beat up a couple of years ago protecting a library from neo-Nazis trying to attack it.

            Reply ↓
        8. Ms. Murchison*

          People OD’d in the bathrooms at the downtown public library I worked at. Usually security handled those incidents.

          Reply ↓
        9. SnookidyBoo*

          My library location is downtown in a medium sized city. Last Friday we had to call EMS for an overdose in the bathroom. It’s the fifth time in about 6 weeks.

          Depending on the location, the library can be a crazy place. Since we are so close to downtown we get a lot of down-on-their-luck kind of people which leads to a lot of… issues.
          Including: medical emergencies, breaking up physical fights, talking down conspiracy theorists who for some reason think taking out their issues on whoever is on circulation is the way to go and just…. people peopling.

          On the up side I work with some of the most compassionate, humorous amazing people I’ve ever met in a work situation.

          Reply ↓
    2. Northbayteky*

      Tell me you haven’t seen the inside of a library this century without saying you haven’t seen the inside of a library this century.

      Reply ↓
      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, libraries aren’t just people quietly reading newspapers or browsing bookshelves – my town’s library has programming for a variety of ages, a cafe, a makerspace with a 3D printer, teen programs, a small recording studio, kids’ playspace…

        Reply ↓
      3. Lady Lessa*

        It really depends upon the time of day and the location of the library. In my local branch, they had to make the restrooms opened by the librarian only, but I’ve never seen it crazy for long periods of time.

        Reply ↓
        1. Coverage Associate*

          This. I went to the public library 4 times this weekend in 3 systems. My spouse is at public libraries 5 or 6 days a week.

          My spouse knows which libraries across the 3 systems he uses regularly have a higher percentage of homeless people and something about the schedule of programs not targeted to the working adult demographic. “Busy” at the branch library of the smallest system is a line of 2 people to check out books. At the main library of the medium system, it’s no available parking, no available chairs or benches.

          We were at a pretty big library Friday that had a line before opening for its book sale, but we didn’t really register the book sale because we were reading in another room. Same with popular teen and children programs, might not register to childless adults, who aren’t allowed in the teen rooms around here .

          Reply ↓
      4. HQB*

        I think this is unfair. I have worked, volunteered, and spent a lot of time inside several different libraries this century, in three different towns, and only one of them was ever what I would call “fast-paced”, and that was only on weekends. But I’ve also spent time in larger libraries in other other municipalities that were definitely fast-paced much of the time, and had to deal with serious issues like mentally ill or drug-addicted patrons, large numbers of very rowdy high-schoolers, homeless patrons, etc. (I’ve also spent time in some that were fast-paced but didn’t have to deal with the above issues, but had a lot of young children and families so things were often kind of wild.) But the smaller, quieter, libraries definitely still exist.

        Reply ↓
    4. dulcinea47*

      that’s because library stereotypes, which are wrong, are still very persistent and widely spread. We literally *never* sit around and read.

      Reply ↓
      1. Bibliothecarial*

        I work in a calm(er) library and I barely had 2 minutes to go to the bathroom today. Some days are quieter but most days I get my steps in! Sometimes I’m at 10,000 by the end of the day.

        Reply ↓
    6. Recovering Librarian*

      Have you been at a retail checkout desk during the holidays? That was every Saturday afternoon at my library’s circulation desk.

      Programming is like event planning. You’re running a show with attendance that can be over 100 people, and all the set-up and take-down and crowd control that entails. After school and Summer Reading Game is like running a daycare but without the requisite child care staff and ratios. So yeah, “fast paced” is an understatement.

      Reply ↓
  19. 40 Years in the Hole*

    “…hesitant under stress…” Then spectacularly, unhesitatingly manifests ugly-stressing when not chosen (again) for the position…
    “When someone shows you who they really are – believe them.”

    Reply ↓
  20. mango chiffon*

    If someone is being racist about it, I think it’s time to part ways on the volunteering side as well. You don’t need that kind of person around.

    Reply ↓
  21. Hedgehug*

    Oof. Sounds like she has burned her bridge.
    Just because she’s a longtime volunteer does not mean that 1. she’s good at it, and 2. she can’t be fired.
    I work in nonprofit. You can fire volunteers!

    Reply ↓
    1. goddessoftransitory*

      Not only did she burn it, she’s now doing a performance art piece entitled “Build Me Another Bridge To Burn!”

      Reply ↓
  22. I hate naming things*

    Stephanie’s subsequent actions are inexcusable.

    I do feel for her because the rejection “there were candidates whose skills and experience were a better fit” in no way implies there is something lacking in her candidacy only that it wasn’t as strong. So of course she’d assume that if she made it round two in the past, she’d expect it to do so again. Based on the letter I’m not sure she’d get the job even if she were the only applicant and nothing in the rejection letter would indicate that.

    I admit I have a huge issue when people give reason “A” you didn’t get a job, assignment etc which while technically a true statement it was really “B” holding you back. Meaning if you had “A” you still wouldn’t get it but if “B” were met they might have made an exception for not having “A”.

    Reply ↓
  24. CJ*

    > Along the way, she made a racist comment about a previous hire (“I know you hired her because she’s Black, but I think that’s great”)

    That is, to my ears, 100% her stating that she doesn’t want to be a volunteer at your facility anymore.

    Reply ↓
  25. Dinwar*

    Honestly, sounds like you dodged a bullet.

    You can tell a lot about a person by how they deal with disappointment. Stephanie to lash out at you for not giving her a position. That says a lot about her character, and about how she’d process disagreements if she were a paid part of the company. What do you think she’d be like if a client, regulator, or other person rejected one of her ideas? Or a coworker disagreed with her?

    The thing to remember is, you didn’t take anything away from her. You didn’t owe her a job, and it wasn’t hers for the taking. Your first loyalty is to the organization, and as long as you did your best for the organization you’re fine.

    I also like the comment made above that you don’t need to debate this with her. I’ve met a lot of people like Stephanie–they think that they are right until proven wrong by their standards. So here, the view is that you are obliged to give her the job unless you can provide a reason that SHE finds satisfactory to not do so. But…that’s not the case here. Power dynamics get a bad reputation due to abuse, but in this case, there is a legitimate power dynamic here with you as the one with the power. The reasoning has to be satisfactory to YOU, not her. And until she realizes that, no discussion is going to be worth the paper it’s written on.

    Reply ↓
  26. Emily (not a bot)*

    If someone is giving you significant unpaid labor, I think you owe it to them to spend some time giving them feedback after they interview poorly–especially if it’s their second time and this is clearly important to them. This is similar to with internal candidates: you don’t owe it to them to select them, but you should tell them why you didn’t. This gives them the information they need to make better-informed choices and not invest further in your organization if it’s not actually going to have the result they want.

    I don’t think any of this is invalidated by her response.

    Reply ↓
    1. stinky film defender*

      As a library professional, I agree. I’ve been an unpaid intern and volunteer many times over, and it’s often touted as a way to get your foot in the door. It seems that is reiterated by library staff due to the usual expectation of volunteers getting interviews. Perhaps it would be worth it to restructure the way you onboard volunteers and move the focus away from volunteering being a springboard to employment opportunities. Otherwise, you may get more people who are just volunteering as a means to eventually obtain employment, and then crash out when that employment is not realistic for them.

      Reply ↓
      1. OP Here*

        I think this makes good sense. But I feel like our situation is unique because we have 130+ volunteers and almost all are retirement age, with a paid job opening up only every couple years or so (the most recent one was a fluke). Many times we’ve had no volunteers at all apply for the openings. Maybe I’m blind to it but I’ve never thought of our setup as a pipeline and didn’t expect that the volunteers do.

        Reply ↓
  27. Spicy Tuna*

    At a job a long time ago, I was doing my own job, plus covering another role’s duties while the company was interviewing people for it. I was literally doing the job and I wasn’t guaranteed an interview. I had to apply for it before my own boss would interview me for the job I was already doing!!! Part of that was due to regulatory requirements (the role was in a highly regulated area of a highly regulated industry) but seriously… you are not guaranteed anything!! Post script to the story, I did get the interview and I did get the role, but I was definitely not the first choice.

    Reply ↓
  28. A Book about Metals*

    Racist comments and angry diatribes? I don’t think you want her as a volunteer anymore, let alone an employee

    Reply ↓
  29. Penguins*

    I mean, the racist comment alone should be grounds enough to fire her. She’s a volunteer, you actually do have an easier time of turfing a volunteer than a paid employee. It’s not like you’re afraid you’re taking away her rent or health insurance by 86’ing her.

    Reply ↓
  30. dulcinea47*

    I hope her volunteer role doesn’t have any contact with the public, considering her history of racist remarks she shouldn’t be around at all.

    Reply ↓
  31. raised by broadcasters*

    Urban librarian here in a similarly “fast-paced environment.” We limit our volunteers to students between 7th and 12th grade because our local schools have a community service requirement. That said, I’ve still had to fire a few of them because they refuse to do their tasks properly. The easiest way I managed it was making all my volunteers sign a contract for behavioral and dress expectations, and spelling out the consequences if they broke those expectations. Now, granted, I’m talking about students. The most I’ve got to deal with is kids showing up after ghosting me for four months expecting to be put back on the schedule (and consistently wearing open-toed shoes). But it helps to have a paper to point to so I can say, “You signed a paper saying you understood that you can’t do X.”

    If the LW wanted to be kind, they would explain why Stephanie isn’t a good fit, and/or instate contracts or the like if their administration moves slow, like mine. But if they are tired of her nonsense, I would go straight to, “Thanks so much, but your services as a volunteer are no longer needed, due to X, Y, and referring to Belinda as a diversity hire.”

    Reply ↓
  32. WantonSeedStitch*

    Wow. After that racist remark, I’d have fired her from her volunteer role as well. I’d have said something like, “look, [reasons why you didn’t give her an interview] were enough to make me decide not to interview you again. But that remark is unacceptable from anyone here, whether an employee and a volunteer. Please do not return for another volunteer shift.”

    Reply ↓
  33. Deborah M*

    Just read a book about white feminism and hey look white feminism.

    Elitist during her interview? Thinks it’s “great” that you hired a Black candidate (and of course that’s the only reason you hired them!)? Won’t be as supportive going forward if she doesn’t get her way? This woman sounds like all the guys on the internet who “warn” feminists that if we’re not nicer to (white) men (especially the white man giving the warning), welp, (white) men (especially this one) will have no choice but to be less supportive of feminism.

    Yuck.

    Reply ↓
    1. commensally*

      I’m not sure what about this letter makes you think feminist? There are plenty of asshole entitled racist white women who aren’t feminist at all. Ask me about my relatives!

      Reply ↓
      1. Deborah M*

        Oh, sure. But white feminism is, among other things, the history of white women who wanted votes and paying jobs for “women.” Specifically white educated owning-class women. Sounds like the woman in question to me.

        Reply ↓
  34. Samwise*

    Don’t ask her if she wants to continue volunteering!

    This person should NOT be volunteering at your library. Her behavior is completely unacceptable and she needs to be gone yesterday

    Reply ↓
  35. Burnt Out Librarian*

    The entitlement that folks approach library work with never fails to surprise me. It’s a unique quality of the field, partially because of reliance on volunteer work (because of being under-funded) and partially because it’s a feminized profession (thus why it’s underfunded) and everyone seems to think they know how to do library jobs better than anyone else, including those of us with advanced degrees and decades of experience. Don’t even get me started on the failure upwards system for men in library admin.

    Stephanie is not owed a job by your library, even if she wasn’t racist and rude. If she wants to work there so badly, she could take steps to make herself a better candidate– either through education (note: I don’t recommend getting an MLS at the moment) or through *talking to you guys and finding out what would make her a better candidate.* I notice she made demands of the director but you didn’t mention her ever coming to you or other interviewers for advice. Here’s how being a volunteer puts you at an advantage: You have access to the people who make hiring decisions and get to learn from them and pick their brains! You are not guaranteed a position, but you are certainly in a better place to become a desirable candidate! Instead she’s squandering that opportunity and going mask-off and honestly? Good. It saves you having to deal with a messy incident later down the line when she lets her inner bigot out in front of other staff and/or patrons.

    But ugggghhhhh. Please cut this volunteer loose, LW. You are better off without her kind of help, considering all the strings she seems to want to attach to her “charity.”

    Reply ↓
    1. foureyedlibrarian*

      “Don’t even get me started on the failure upwards system for men in library admin.”

      Oh so you’ve met my director

      Reply ↓
    2. Recovering Librarian*

      Your first paragraph eloquently describes why I left libraries. Initially I thought it was toxicity specific to my branch or library system. Then I went to another organization and realized it was the whole industry.

      Reply ↓
    1. learnedthehardway*

      Thing is – she probably doesn’t even realize it. She’s probably quite convinced that the other employee WAS an affirmative action hire and feels she is making appropriate allowances and being “tolerant”.

      This is NOT to suggest that her attitude is appropriate. It is certainly racist.

      This should be a “teachable moment”, but things have gone too far for that.

      Reply ↓
      1. OP Here*

        Agreed. Stephanie is a white, very liberal-identifying retirement-age woman. I believe she thinks she was being “inclusive” by saying how great it was we hired a Black staff member over her. She also stalked said employee on LinkedIn and deemed herself to be more qualified as a result. And admitted it! Out loud. I can’t even.

        Reply ↓
  38. Elizabeth West*

    As someone who was interviewed three times by a company that ultimately did not hire me, if you know she’s a no-go after round one, to grant further interviews feels like just stringing her along at that point.

    The racist comment — nah, you don’t want this person as a volunteer anymore. Don’t let the door hit you where the good Lord split you, Fergusina — I mean Stephanie.

    Reply ↓
  39. Light Spinner*

    Volunteer-to-paid-staffer here: Stephanie needs to be out of that volunteer position and out of your library like, yesterday! She is unstable, out of control and possibly even dangerous as well; a mature, well-adjusted adult does NOT react to being turned down for a job by behaving that way.

    Your volunteers reflect your library’s values and attitudes; very often, they’re the first people that library-goers see and talk with. Do you want ANYONE in your community getting the idea that Stephanie represents what your library offers and what it stands for? If not, then she needs to go ASAP.

    Reply ↓
    1. OP Here*

      I agree with this. I am anxious being around her. That’s not ok. We are so used to praising and thanking the volunteers – they ARE truly invaluable – that we are ill-prepared to deal with a bad apple. Love AAM for the slap in the face (with love) when needed!

      Reply ↓
  40. Alexis Moira Rose*

    “…we found that she was rambling and unfocused despite our best efforts, and she expressed hesitations about performing some key parts of the job (working under pressure, multi-tasking)”

    The hesitation to do certain parts of the job is a concern and it would make sense to reject her on these grounds, but could it be that she got nervous during the interview and that is why she was “rambling and unfocused”? Is that really a good reason not to hire someone if their work is otherwise good and they are otherwise qualified? I don’t think so, personally.

    Reply ↓
    1. commensally*

      Yeah, those parts honestly sound more like someone who is inexperienced at interviewing (bad at talking to relative strangers under high stakes, doesn’t understand yet where to be less than 100% honest) than someone who will be bad at the job. That’s exactly the kind of issue where multiple courtesy interviews and mentoring can help a lot, tbh (and if her supervisor was coaching her after the first interview, you might have seen major improvement on the second one.)

      The values conflicts and haranguing the director are much bigger problems though.

      Reply ↓
      1. DisgruntledPelican*

        I’ve never worked at a library, but I’ve worked at many non-profits. None of our volunteers have a “supervisor” – there might be a volunteer coordinator or someone who has volunteer coordination as one of many other duties, but no supervisor. And I can’t imagine anyone having the time to coach a volunteer on professional skills on the off chance another position opens up and this same volunteer applies. That is just not a good use of time or money.

        Reply ↓
    2. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Stephanie is a retiree from an impressive university career, according to OP in a comment above.

      Reply ↓
      1. linger*

        I will note that some very successful university careers are founded on being able to script speeches well in advance, rather than on being able to react appropriately and fluently in the moment.
        But library volunteering does not lend itself so much to that strategy.

        Reply ↓
    3. fhqwhgads*

      It sounds like she was rambling in both of the first two interviews (and possibly also in the volunteer role?) so it wasn’t just a nervous during the interview thing. But also it sounds like they had plenty of candidates who were more qualified and weren’t rambling and unfocused in their interviews, so the reason they gave her sounds like it’s genuinely true? Other people were better. It’s not just the rambling that nixed her chance, and the rambling and the existence of candidates who performed better in their interviews overall.

      Reply ↓
      1. OP Here*

        This is correct. Every time we have had candidates who are better for a variety of reasons, including staying on track during interviews. I mentioned the rambling because her interviews were tedious and unfocused once we spent more time with her than the phone screen, and I can’t imagine her being decisive, focused, and quick to address patrons’ questions.

        Reply ↓
  41. Harshall*

    It’s clear that she is volunteering and going above and beyond in hopes of getting a job. You’re dishonestly giving partial feedback, leading her on to continue to get free labor. Stop it. She can already tell there’s more going on behind not being hired than you say, so give her the feedback that you do not have any pans to hire her and why, and stop wasting everyone’s time.

    Reply ↓
  42. beepboop*

    Yikes. I know it will be hard to “fire” her as a volunteer (because the library is a public space and if she’s making a stink publicly now, just wait) but it should be done. The racial comment is a bridge too far. Branch manager and volunteer supervisor need to get together and figure out how to let her go with as little drama as possible (knowing that there will still be some drama).

    Reply ↓
  43. Marc*

    W really don’t feel she’s a fit for our community-focused, fast-paced environment, nor would any of us particularly look forward to working with her.

    If this is how you feel then you should communicate it to Stephanie as clearly as you’ve communicated it to us. If she genuinely believes that volunteering will eventually lead to paid employment then, unless you clearly tell her otherwise, you (that is, the library—not necessarily you personally) are taking advantage of her naivete in return for her (unpaid) labor.

    Reply ↓
    1. OP Here*

      Just want to thank the commenters – who are, as always, so thoughtful and insightful – and who are exceptionally good at providing the wake up call that is needed sometimes. In addition to the bits of extra info I’ve added to some of the threads, I want to say here very loudly and affirmatively that I agree the racist comment cannot stand. We will be having a serious come to Jesus about Stephanie’s volunteer status asap. Alison answered my question super quickly (thank you!) – and this is still fresh as of last week, so we are still reeling. Thank you for your kindness and for highlighting how important it is that we address this attitude and behavior in a decisive manner.

      Reply ↓
    2. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Up above, the OP said “ Stephanie is a white woman, retiree from an impressive university career, aligns herself with being very socially/politically liberal”. – so she isn’t a well-meaning but socially and culturally naive volunteer who is overwhelmed by the job’s needs for multi tasking and staying focused.

      Reply ↓
  44. Raida*

    It sounds like the Library director should sit down with her and tell her straight out:
    “We appreciate everything you’ve done as a volunteer and are sad to see you go. Clearly you are unhappy, the sight of some staff make you angry, and you are escalating in snide and demanding behaviour.
    We hope that, with time and space, you’ll enjoy coming to the Library again as a member of the public and that you find the time created by no longer being a volunteer here is a great opportunity for you to explore other ways to give back.”

    Essentially – you are fired. You are being rude, we don’t want you to come back.

    Reply ↓
  45. OP Here*

    Just want to thank the commenters – who are, as always, so thoughtful and insightful – and who are exceptionally good at providing the wake up call that is needed sometimes. In addition to the bits of extra info I’ve added to some of the threads, I want to say here very loudly and affirmatively that I agree the racist comment cannot stand. We will be having a serious come to Jesus about Stephanie’s volunteer status asap. Alison answered my question super quickly (thank you!) – and this is still fresh as of last week, so we are still reeling. Thank you for your kindness and for highlighting how important it is that we address this attitude and behavior in a decisive manner.
    (Sorry for double-posting this I’m bad at navigating threads!)

    Reply ↓
    1. ladyhouseoflove*

      Hi OP,

      I’ve read the comments you provided and I am glad you’re listening. It’s not easy to handle situations like this, it never is, and I am sending you positive vibes.

      Reply ↓
    2. Polly Hedron*

      We will be having a serious come to Jesus about Stephanie’s volunteer status asap

      …which I hope results in her resignation.
      Please post an update after that talk!

      Reply ↓

Leave a Comment

Before you comment: Please be kind, stay on-topic, and follow the site's commenting rules.
You can report an ad, tech, or typo issue here.

Subscribe to all comments on this post by RSS