I manage a terrible slob — how can I convince her upset coworker that I’m handling it?

by Alison Green on April 9, 2025

A reader writes:

I supervise a team of seven, split between two offices. Sally is an employee in her early 20s working in the opposite office as myself.

Sally is a slob. This is not typical workplace clutter. She leaves work and personal items all over the office — moldy food containers, piles of work items, boxes, etc. Her messes have taken up to an hour to clean up. Her own office is such a mess that she spreads her work out to all of the common areas in the office, and then leaves the common areas a mess. She has not responded to typical feedback or formal warnings, and the issue has been escalated to HR. Sally will be placed on a PIP next week.

The other team members in that office, especially Susie, are understandably frustrated. The other two people on the team feel like they are stuck cleaning up Sally’s messes because they want the office to be presentable when clients visit. I have asked them several times to please not clean up after Sally. Instead, I have asked them to notify me, and I will drive in from the other office (a 15-minute drive) and address it with Sally directly. If Sally is out that day, I have told them that I will drive to the office and clean it myself. This has rarely happened — often, Susie will clean up the mess, and then call me frustrated.

The HR process has been extremely slow, but the PIP is finally in progress and will be shared with Sally next week.

I’m stuck on how I address this with Susie. She calls me almost daily, often in tears, to complain about Sally’s messes. Susie is rightfully frustrated that Sally’s mess impacts her own work. I always reiterate that I could be there within 15 minutes to have it cleaned up so it wasn’t Susie’s problem, but she always cleans it herself regardless. I always repeat to Susie that I am aware of the situation and it is being addressed. I am not willing to share much more than “it has been addressed” to protect Sally’s privacy.

Susie has questioned me on if I have even talked to Sally about the issue. Because she isn’t seeing any changes in Sally’s behavior, she doesn’t believe it’s been addressed at all. I keep repeating “it has been addressed” or “I am working with my supervisor on a solution” hoping she will get the idea that HR has gotten involved. Furthermore, she continues to clean up Sally’s messes instead of calling me, which is making it hard for me to hold Sally accountable.

How do I convince Susie that I am addressing the issue? I get the feeling she thinks I am ignoring the issue and losing trust in me, which is obviously not the case. She is becoming resentful of doing all of the cleaning, even though I have asked her outright multiple times to not.

Aside from outright telling Susie that Sally is being put on a PIP (which I obviously wouldn’t do), how do I get her to trust me that this is being addressed? I’m at my wits’ end here.

Well, first, I wouldn’t recommend using a PIP for something like this that’s so black and white. This isn’t a situation where Sally needs to build her skills or get better at follow-through on projects, or needs time to demonstrate that her work has changed. This is a very clear, “You cannot leave messes all over the office, period.” It’s closer to a conduct issue than a performance issue, and PIPs aren’t well-suited for those. Instead, you’re better off making your expectations clear, laying out the consequences if they’re not met, and then sticking to that.

But it sounds like you’re being stymied by your organization’s HR, which is requiring a PIP, so here we are.

The language you need to use with Susie is: “Every time you clean up Sally’s mess, it makes it harder for me to address the problem. The way to help get this resolved as quickly as possible is to alert me that it has happened and then leave it alone. Your cleaning it up is actively interfering with my ability to resolve it, so I need you to stop — that’s not negotiable. You cannot clean on Sally’s behalf anymore.”

But you really, really need to pair that with something like, “I can promise you that I’m only asking this of you for a month and no longer.” Because if you’re asking Susie to work in messy chaos for months on end and not do anything about it herself, that’s unreasonable.

Frankly, I might also pair it with, “I know it must seem like this should have been fixed by now. Our organization has policies that managers have to follow when there are issues like this. The only way I can take the action necessary is by allowing the messes to stay long enough that I personally can document them.” Because that’s the truth, and by trying to avoid spelling it out, you’re letting her think you’re just not taking any real action. It is not a violation of Sally’s privacy to spell this out for Susie.

That said … Susie’s reaction to Sally’s messes sounds really intense. Calling you daily in tears? Unless there’s some missing context that makes that make sense (like that Sally’s mess is literally preventing Susie from being able to do her own job), that makes me wonder what more is going on, either with Susie personally or with the broader situation.

I’m also curious how long this has been happening! If it’s dragged out for a year and Susie has been hearing “it has been addressed” for a year when it clearly hasn’t been addressed in a sufficient way, it’s understandable that she’s frustrated.

Can you just move Sally to the office you’re in? Or work out of the office she’s in yourself for a while? Given the way HR seems to be tying your hands, you’re going to be able to deal with this a lot more effectively if you’re regularly in the same space that she is.

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  1. Plath*

    Do you have to wait for Susie to tell you that there’s a mess before you drive over there? Seems like it would be easier on everyone if you just… drove the 15 minutes every day or every other day to the office to document it/clean it.

    1. NerdyKris*

      Or is it possible to just work in that office for a while so LW can be there as it happens?

      1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        Came here to agree with this. It’d be ideal if the LW could work out of this office more often and, whenever necessary, tell Sally to clean up after herself. I’m sure that Sally wouldn’t enjoy being told multiple times a day to tidy up. Ideally, she’ll dislike it enough to start being more mindful about the shared space.

      3. Dust Bunny*

        Good lord, this–the LW needs to work on-site and call Sally out quicker/in the cat. Susie seems like a bit much but when you’re working with moldy food every day and you have to wait for someone else to come clean it up, it’s going to wear on you.

          1. HappyPenguin*

            I thought that was a new phrase I wasn’t aware of! Thanks for the smile…and I agree with you totally.

            1. Dancing Otter*

              Yes, if the cat were responsible, the mess would be on the floor. I’ve never had a cat that didn’t believe everything belonged on the floor except them.

                2. lanfy*

                  My cat looks me dead in the eye to make sure I can see him making the mess, because it’s all about letting me know that he’s starving.

                  Does Sally need some Dreamies?

                3. amoeba*

                  Hah. Maybe that’s what’s missing from the letter – Sally is, in fact, actually a cat?

          2. Oniya*

            I was thinking you meant ‘Call in the cat’ – which (if anything like my cat) would start trying to bury the offending substance.

            I once dripped a bit of water on the carpet and she tried to bury it until I managed to get a towel over it.

    2. Aggretsuko*

      Having anyone drive into the office all the time is ridiculous anyway, but yes, it sounds like there’s a mess EVERY DAY.

      1. Perihelion*

        The letter says that they see customers in the office. Being there in person may actually be a key part of the job. Not every job is suited to being remote, and it’s pointless to pretend that it is.

        1. Kal*

          It doesn’t sound like anyone is working remote here – just that LW works in a different office location from Sally and Susie.

      2. Out of office, out of mind*

        People coming into the office “all the time” is a normal state of affairs, one that most companies — to say nothing of organizations like the federal government — are returning to, and wisely so.

        1. amoeba*

          Yes, but in this case, they are working from one office and would spend 30 mins driving every day plus the actual time spent on site to drive to a different location! I’d argue that’s *not* standard for most businesses (seems like quite the waste of resources,,,)

          But sure, if it’s necessary in this case, I’d consider it. However, working regularly from Sally’s office or have Sally move in LW’s office as Alison suggested seems more efficient…

        2. Hastily Blessed Fritos*

          You really don’t want to mention the federal government as an example of a wise RTO, unless think ” working from chairs in the hallway ” is good practice. Those were jobs that not only could be done from home, but which the real estate strategy planned on being at least hybrid.

        3. FYI*

          Um. Wisely so? There’s a wide difference of opinion on that, esp regarding the federal government.

    3. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      This is what I would suggest too. If you’re just fifteen minutes away, and you know Sally is like this, don’t make your employees call to tell you there’s a mess. You know there’s a mess. Put it on your schedule to come over daily to document and clean it. Tell Susie that that’s what you’re doing. You don’t need your other employees to notify you that it’s a problem; you know it’s a problem.

      Obviously this is ridiculous. You should be able to fire Sally for leaving enormous messes and not cleaning them up or changing her behavior. But since you apparently can’t, it’s better for you as the boss to take initiative in keeping the environment tolerable for your employees who aren’t the problem.

      1. Bruce (not that Bruce the other Bruce)*

        Yes! OP should be camping there and make it clear to Sally that every time she leaves a mess it is another strike on her PIP. Like Alison says, having a PIP for this is nuts.

      2. Roland*

        Yeah, if there’s time for mold (!!!) to come into play then there is absolutely no reason to wait for a call. You’ll see something literally any time you dropped by.

      3. Ganymede II*

        It must be exhausting for Susie to have to tell on Sally all the time too. No reasonable adult like to be reporting on the cleanliness of their office, or reporting their colleagues to the manager on a regular basis.

    4. Lemons*

      Yes, LW you need to be proactively going over there regularly until Sally is let go.

      I think LW is wrong for cleaning up after Sally as well! Neither LW or Susie should be doing this, Sally should: it’s not clear from the letter whether you’re making her clean. Sally obviously has trouble understanding what’s appropriate, and even perhaps what ‘clean workspace’ means. It could be something like hoarding disorder messing with her abilities and perceptions. I would require her to work from her office ONLY (no spreading to common areas) and also require her to clean up after herself every day.

      1. Kevin Sours*

        How exactly do you propose to require that? (From the letter: “She has not responded to typical feedback or formal warnings”). Susie either has to clean or sit in the filth until LW comes over to clean or comes over to make Sally do it. That’s the problem.

        1. Lemons*

          My solution is to make Sally sit in her office filth, and make Sally do 100% of the cleaning. Feedback and warnings can be soft sometimes, I’m proposing a daily “clean this up now, it’s a condition of staying in your job.”

          Susie also has the option to dump all the garbage in Sally’s office, which I would encourage, though I’m still a proponent of Sally having to handle 100% of the mess.

          1. sparkle emoji*

            Just speculation, but it sounds possible that Sally has some sort of hoarding-adjacent situation that would make her attempts at cleaning unsatisfactory for Susie. I absolutely don’t think LW should be lenient with Sally even if this is the case, just pointing out that this sounds like its fallen to others because Sally won’t clean well enough(or at all). It sounds as if the only options are LW cleaning, Susie cleaning, or no cleaning.

            1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

              i thought that too. and this sounds like a lot worse that “frustration” for Susie. MOLD? Personal mess spilling out into the common areas? I’d be downright pissed off. it is difficult to work around filth even if you have your own clean spot around you. and i wonder about health and safety issues as well, tripping hazards, clear pathways through and out of the building in case of emergency. sounds to me like susie has put up with a hell of a lot for a long time.

            2. Kevin Sours*

              Susie doesn’t have the authority to *make* Sally clean and even if she did it’s going to be less work to do it. LW isn’t on site. And really nothing is going to magically stop Susie from spreading mess to the common areas.

              1. Boof*

                She could, possibly, attempt to micromanage Sally’s cleanup if Sally isn’t actively refusing to do things – I suppose if this is some kind of wild comprehension + extreme social background issue that could possibly retrain Sally into understanding what is required. This sounds well beyond what most orgs should attempt to take on tho it’s essentially not being able to do a pretty basic job requirement

          2. Dogmomma*

            there’s no way I’m touching someone else’s moldy food with or without gloves. if Susie has to do a thorough clean every day after Sally, who’s spreading filth outside her own office on a regular basis, I’d be frustrated and upset ( and probably cry at least once) too. That’s beyond gross& sounds like she can’t get her own work done bc of this…is it spreading onto Susie’s work area as well, bc it sounds it. Do you have clients come in to the office? I don’t understand why you’d come in on a daily basis to clean up after Sally? that’s ridiculous. I’ve always said ,” if you want to live in filth have at it, but don’t drag me, your kids or any animals in along with you. “

    5. SprawledOut*

      Also, are you SURE that it only takes you 15 minutes? Like, really super sure?

      Or is it a case where Susie calls, you’re on the phone with her for 5 minutes, and then you do just one more quick thing, then pack up your laptop, grab your lunch from the fridge, get out to your car, and THEN it’s a 15 minute drive, PLUS the time it takes to get out of your car, get into the new office, set up your laptop, and start cleaning?

      Because if that happened even once, I would 100% be on Susie’s side here. It is impossibly frustrating to know you have a client coming in 30 minutes, see a mess that will take 30 minutes (or more!) to clean, and hear from your boss “don’t touch it, I’ll be right there” when you know they won’t make it in time to actually solve the problem before the client arrives.

      1. Yup*

        I’m confused as to how you can say this has been “addressed” when it clearly has not been addressed. At a certain point appealing to a corporate non-answer is just disrespecting the complainant.

        Your policies and practices are failing what is a very straightforward issue: tell the person who is making the mess that maintaining the workspace in a sanitary condition is a requirement for their continued employment. HR and anyone else needs step up and support that decision.

        1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

          I would be assuming, given the “this has been addressed” wording, that “call the boss to clean it every single time and otherwise just live with it” was the way it had been addressed. Like, that the current status quo was the endpoint and they thought that was sufficient.

        2. WheresMyPen*

          It sounds to me like “it is being addressed” is more accurate than “it has been addressed”. The problem is still there so it hasn’t been addressed. OP clearly thinks the PIP and her offering to clean are addressing the issue, but I’m sceptical that will actually address the problem.

    6. Boof*

      Yes – if this is a DAILY issue why isn’t OP going over there daily to document/corral it until Susie is either better or dismissed?

    8. Limm*

      Yeah I’m deeply sceptical of the whole “but it would only take me 15 mins to get there!!”

      Really? You’re the boss but you’re never busy? Never have meetings? Your job is so light and undemanding that you’re free as a bird 24/7 to drop whatever you’re doing to go play maid? You live in an area with no traffic? No possible circumstances that could delay you?

      Considering Susie is having to meet clients in a filthy, unsafe environment (MOULDY FOOD??) it’s not a surprise she’s not willing to nag her boss to come clean all the time.

      1. Nack*

        Yes, this. It sounds like this is an office where clients are coming and going. Even if the boss said she was willing to come clean up, there’s no way I’d call her if I knew clients were going to walk in and see the filth. I have too much pride in my work! I’d be mortified to say to a client “Excuse the mess, my boss hasn’t come to clean up after my coworker yet.” OP, have you thought about how Susie feels welcoming clients into this space?

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Has LW ever asked why Susie keeps cleaning the mess up? It seems like there a bunch of practical reasons such as “we had clients coming in” or “I wanted to eat lunch in the kitchen but it was gross” that someone might not want to wait for someone to come in from another office to clean.

        2. KJC*

          Yes, this. It’s not reasonable to ask one employee to have to be the daily tattle tale on the other, and meanwhile clients are showing up regularly. This is a weird way to handle it for sure, and I don’t blame Susie for being mad.

    9. Greenbeans2U*

      I agree. Why should Susie be responsible for reporting an ongoing occurrence when the supervisor can be proactive and take 15-minutes to show up in person to address Sally? The supervisor is avoiding her managerial responsibilities and hiding behind the HR process.

    10. DJ*

      Perhaps add to the convo with Sally “I will arrange to provide a tub for you to put the messes/stray items in”

  2. I should really pick a name*

    I’d like to know what forms typical feedback and formal warnings take in this case.

    Maybe it’s just word choice, but “feedback” sounds pretty gentle for something like this. It sounds more like coaching when a blunt “this cannot continue” is more appropriate in this situation.

    1. Disappointed with the Staff*

      I get the impression it’s like the pointless parenting we see “Sally darling, do stop stabbing Michael, we’ve discussed before that stabbing is not being nice”.

      It’s not entirely clear to me who (if anyone) has firing authority here but we’re way past the stage where I think a “clean this. Now. I’ll wait. Do it again and I will walk you off the property right then and you will be fired for cause. I will give you a bad reference. Describe your plan and the consequences for failing to carry out”.

    2. Artemesia*

      This. She gets two warnings and is fired at three. A really screwed up HR that doesn’t see this as behavior. Do workers there get to create fire hazards for months? Ignore wearing hard hats? Fail to record time sheets accurately? This should have been handled in two weeks.

      1. Limm*

        Yeah I’m astonished at the answer that Susie is overreacting, considering she’s being forced to work in extreme filth and conditions which are actively harmful to health. Working around a hoarder with mould everywhere is hardly the same as a few files.

        Sally needs to be fired asap.

  3. juliebulie*

    Sally’s nonsense can get you in trouble with OSHA and the local health department. Any chance you can get her to work from home? If not, I think you need to pursue termination before mice and ants show up.

    I don’t know about Susie. Seems to me that cleaning up Sally’s mess (even if she didn’t complain about it in tears) is directly disobeying OP’s orders. If her horror at the mess is so acute that she can’t keep her hands off of it, that’s another problem.

    1. Andromeda Carr*

      I wonder if Susie needs to be explicitly told that she is not responsible for Sally’s mess. At an early job of mine I was blamed for coworkers’ messes, mostly for demographic reasons, and so I (resentfully) cleaned them up rather than be written up again (yes, they wrote me up for other people’s messes). If I’d had messy coworkers in my next job I probably would have continued the habit.

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Especially with clients apparently visiting(!!). There is no way I wouldn’t feel responsible for it if I had clients coming into an office with piles of garbage, because if the client has a bad experience, that may reflect on me even if I’m not the cause of it.

        1. WheresMyPen*

          Reminds me of living in halls of residence at university. My flatmates were disgusting and never did the washing up. It would sit there for weeks until we got fined, the cleaners would put it in a box to clear the sink and my flatmates would eventually wash it up, then the cycle would repeat. In the meantime, I would need to cook my own meals, or have friends over, and rather than having to exist with a pile of mouldy dishes, I would sometimes do them to get rid of the problem. I totally understand Susie’s distress and need to clean herself rather than experience the embarrassment of hosting clients surrounded by mess.

          1. NotBatman*

            Agreed! I think I cleaned 85% of the dishes that 6 people generated in my college apartment the year I lived there. Not because I wanted to, but because I needed clean plates to eat my food and had no other way to get them. If there was a manager who was meant to be dealing with that situation, you bet I’d be putting all my frustration on them until it got resolved.

      2. Kevin Sours*

        The problem is that telling Sally that’s she’s not responsible for cleanup up Susie’s mess doesn’t get the mess cleaned up. I don’t know what her reluctance to call OP as directed is, but when faced with the choice of cleaning up the mess or sitting in it people are going to clean it up and resent having to do it.

        1. GrooveBat*

          You mean telling *Susie* that she’s not responsible for cleaning up *Sally’s* mess, right?

        2. Andromeda Carr*

          I agree with you here — frankly I think it’s unreasonable to require someone to sit in a filthy workplace full of rotting garbage when dealing with garbage is not the job and PPE has not been provided. In my comment above I’m just musing on if it would help Susie to explicitly know that at least she’s not being blamed for someone else’s filth. That might take enough edge off her upset to help her endure, especially if combined with a time limit.

      3. Jennifer Strange*

        Reminds me of when I was younger (maybe 13 or so). My brother would leave a mess somewhere. My mom would get home from work and yell at me for the mess. I’d say it wasn’t mine and get told, “I don’t care whose it is!”. So basically I had to either clean up after my older brother or get yelled at.

    2. DramaQ*

      I don’t know about Susie. Seems to me that cleaning up Sally’s mess (even if she didn’t complain about it in tears) is directly disobeying OP’s orders. If her horror at the mess is so acute that she can’t keep her hands off of it, that’s another problem.

      We have the LW saying it takes them 15 minutes to get to the office. Does it really? Or do they think it takes 15 minutes but between getting ready, the commute, getting into the building it takes more? Meanwhile the clock is ticking and it’s a race between them getting their first vs clients?

      I can absolutely understand why Susie would feel pressured to clean and not wait. Do you want to risk losing your company a client after they see that mess? Somehow I don’t think HR and the higher ups are going to have it dawn on them that their assine system of putting Sally on a PIP with ridiculous requirements (the LW having to drive down and document it every time) is what caused them to lose a client.

      The LW doesn’t have to sit in all of it waiting for someone to show up to clean it either. I would go absolutely INSANE having to sit in that level of junk/filth until someone else drove in to clean it up. I can imagine how hard it gets to do your job while moldy/stinky food smells waft in the breeze. How cluttered is she making shared spaces? Can Susie find a space to work without having to clean off a bazillion take out containers every time?

      And it sounds like the mess moves right back in. Should Susie reasonably be expected to sit there and wait for the LW every.single.time.

      This isn’t a Susie problem. It is a Sally problem but honestly at this point it isn’t totally a Sally problem either. This is a company/management problem that it requires this level of babysitting and PIPs to fire someone who has made the office into an A&E episode.

      LW as management’s hands are tied but there are ways they could make this easier on everyone. Like being in that office so they are right there to clean up the moment Sally starts migrating rather than expecting everyone else to sit in it until they arrive.

      1. FYI*

        Hm. This is the second or third comment that uses the phrase “disobeying orders.” I guess I don’t approach work that way. I don’t think of it as military-style compliance. If my boss is putting me in a terrible position (as is the case here, imo), I am going to look out for my own well-being. The idea of submitting to the boss as some kind of authority figure honestly does not cross my mind. I’m not a prisoner or a private first-class.

    4. Tiger Snake*

      The other side of the problem not really been talked about here, is that leaving the mess is also affecting Susie and their other colleagues. The mess is in common areas, and in areas they are expected to receive clients. It’s affecting their ability to work and their ability to be comfortable in the workplace.

      Waiting for someone else to get there and clean affects Susie’s ability to work, affects what clients think of her and harm her professional reputation, and then also affect whether she even enjoys working.

      I don’t see Susie refusing to NOT clean as her disregarding LW’s authority. I see it as; LW has allowed this to go on for so long without change, and thereby without considering how it really affects Susie, that Susie no longer trusts her manager to do something about it, either in the moment or to address the underlying issue. That LW has become a “Your boss sucks and isn’t going to change” boss for her, and now she’s just trying to deal with that reality.

    5. Limm*

      But Sally is forced to see clients in an environment of filth that is harmful to health, and the LW is refusing to do anything about it. What client wouldn’t walk straight out the door?

      I think people should go back and read the letters from people forced to share offices with hoarders, or the one about the person in the office full of rotting mouldy food. If Sally had written it, everyone would be on her side.

  4. Peanut Hamper*

    Moldy food containers? Messes that take an hour (AN HOUR?!?) to clean up. An office so messy even she can’t work in it? This is more than your usual level of messiness. This is bordering on health code/OSHA issues.

    No, no, no. I understand Susie’s frustration. Sally should have been gone a long time ago.

    And don’t be surprised when Susie puts in her two-week notice.

    1. StressedButOkay*

      Yeah, I can clearly see why Susie would be calling in tears. The idea of how filthy things are just makes want to gag and it’s just text/my imagination.

      1. Antilles*

        Especially when Susie is being told that the preferred solution is, apparently “suck it up and just live with the rotting food mess until I have the time to drive over there”.

    2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      I’d be near tears too if I had to work amidst moldy food for months and just kept being told “it’s being addressed, call me to come clean it up.” And I’m far from a neatnik.

      Also, are there ants? Because that’s how you get ants.

            1. Elizabeth West*

              I don’t know where OP lives, but in a larger city (and probably smaller ones too), EVERY building has rats. Every single one.

              1. Chalk Dusted Facsimile*

                I’m… not so sure about that. Steel-and-concrete high rise construction (with regular firewalls &c) isn’t exactly amenable; in downtown Chicago I see rats outside and in public transit infrastructure, but no indications indoors (past ground-floor loading dock and trash-room infrastructure).

                Now, you get out of the city center with the pretty modern buildings with full-time support staff and it’s a different matter, certainly.

      2. Aggretsuko*

        Yeah, I can’t blame Susie for thinking nothing is getting addressed, and I bet this has dragged on for quite some time. Also, having to call the boss daily to get it cleaned? Oy.

      3. Ellen N.*

        I worked in an office where someone storing food in their desk attracted cockroaches.

      4. BrunetteBubbly*

        Seriously, most people would be upset about having to work in environment where there’s bugs and a rotten smell (presumably if the food is out there long enough to get MOLD.)

        The LW should be prepared for Susie to quit if the situation doesn’t improve.

      6. A. Lab Rabbit*

        Yes, I was flashing back to that episode of The Fosters where Jude was hiding food under his bed. This can quickly go from a mess problem to a mess/pest infestation problem.

      7. Swiss Army Them*

        This is weirdly specific, but I grew up in a hoarded home, and having to work in a filthy office like that would be extremely triggering to me! Not to project all that onto Susie, of course, but if I were in her shoes, I’d be doing the exact same thing. OP doesn’t know if she has a personal history with Mess like that.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          My maternal grandmother was a level 1 hoarder, as is my dad (I get it from both sides of the family, lol) and this office would also trigger me.

      8. Dust Bunny*

        Yeah, I have a pretty high grossness tolerance but if this has been going on for weeks/months without Sally getting visibly any better about it, I would be at the end of my rope and also out of faith that my supervisor was actually doing anything about it.

        1. allathian*

          Yeah, same. But only for my own messes and never at the office. And I don’t let it get so bad there’s mold.

          1. Dust Bunny*

            Also, if I’m seeing clients in a space I want it clean. That’s just embarrassing.

      9. Audiophile*

        I’m picturing a hoarding situation in an office space. I can only imagine what Sally’s home looks like if this is what the office looks like.

        I had a colleague who kept everything. Thankfully, it didn’t extend to food, but his office was a huge mess. Actually, there were several people at that company where this was a problem. They did not get rid of anything. It came to a head when the company moved locations, and getting them to pack up their years’ worth of memories was nearly impossible.

        1. StarTrek Nutcase*

          I was an admin asst in a large research university department. Certain professors were treated as exempt from policies and rules us mere mortal had to follow. One of the dept’s professor’s (H) office was moved onto my floor and within my section. Each section had 5 offices (this one incl. mine & the chairman’s offices) and a large central area for two staff & lobby for visitors. Anyway, Prof. H’s was quickly packed full despite being 25% larger than his old one. Within days, his overflow encroached into the central area. (H never threw away old mail and saved old textbooks – some decades old, as well as hoarding acad. library books.) So after H ignored my requests to stop, So every am (I was in 30 mins before others), I started simply collecting his overflow: mail was dumped back in his office, all newspapers & any book without his name was trashed out of sight, and library books returned. A few times H asked where his overflow was, I simply said “don’t know.” H never really stopped but those 5 mins every am was a happy FU to him so I didn’t mind. (H was problematic in other ways, so yeah FU.)

          BTW I never involved the chair though I suspect he knew I was responsible. He always trusted me to handle office issues, I trusted him to support me if needed. Best boss ever. H was a legit hoarder, which is why he demanded a larger office from our dean. (H was known to have 2 adjacent large homes which were fully hoarded both.)

          1. Audiophile*

            That sounds awful! I don’t think I’d be able to deal with that without getting the chair involved.

            When the company moved, a few colleagues shared stories about our respective departments’ hoarders. It made me feel a little less alone since, for a while, it felt like I was the only one trying to corral my department’s hoarder.

      10. I didn't say banana*

        But how long does food have to sit around to go mouldy? If Susie called LW and told them “Sally has left food containers out”, then LW could come before it gets mouldy?

        Sally puts a food container down, Susie calls LW, within half an hour LW is telling Sally to throw it out and documenting this all?

        1. Peanut Hamper*

          Don’t forget that Sally has an office that is so full of rubbish even she can’t work in it. I do believe that’s where the mould is coming from. And it likely explains why Susie is so quick to get rid of messes in common areas.

    3. Abogado Avocado*

      I don’t think this is a PIP issue. I doubt that you, LW, or anyone else can coach Sally towards making fewer “messes” when the existing messes involve moldy food containers and take an hour to disassemble. Without diagnosing Sally, I doubt that this is an I-don’t-know-how-to-be-organized problem, but a problem that is beyond the scope of any workplace to train someone out of. I feel for Sally because I think she may need psychological help, but I also feel for Susie, who is having to work in conditions that, frankly, would have many of us here running for the hills.

    4. dulcinea47*

      How are moldy food containers even happening if someone is cleaning up after Sally every day, which it sounds like they are?

      1. CTT*

        I think the moldy food containers are limited to Sally’s office, and Susie is cleaning the spillover into the common areas.

        1. Ellis Bell*

          See, I can imagine Sally’s colleagues not feeling like they can clear up right inside her office like they do the common areas, but I don’t know why the office mess isn’t being tackled in a timely way by someone in authority before there’s mould. This is already a formal warning situation so I’m hoping the mould refers to the days of “before we knew” and stuff isn’t still being left to go actually rancid.

          1. Starbuck*

            The containers or whatever probably sit in Sally’s office long enough that they get nasty. Then, eventually Sally has to unbury a pile of papers covered in containers or shift stuff around to do her work, and whatever that was moldy in her office gets moved to the common area during the shuffle.

        2. Elizabeth West*

          If I were Susie, I’d be tempted to pick it up and dump everything back in Sally’s office and say “This is yours.” I can understand her frustration.

      2. Slow Gin Lizz*

        Yeah, I was wondering this too. It’s really gotten out of control if there is mold, which in general doesn’t happen overnight.

      3. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        If she’s a hoarder and not just a very messy person (which we don’t know either way), some of the trash may be things that were already trash when she brought them into the office. Some hoarders “rescue” discarded items and bring them into their space, and yes, this can and does include food.

    5. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      This is what I would suggest too. If you’re just fifteen minutes away, and you know Sally is like this, don’t make your employees call to tell you there’s a mess. You know there’s a mess. Put it on your schedule to come over daily to document and clean it. Tell Susie that that’s what you’re doing. You don’t need your other employees to notify you that it’s a problem; you know it’s a problem.

      Obviously this is ridiculous. You should be able to fire Sally for leaving enormous messes and not cleaning them up or changing her behavior. But since you apparently can’t, it’s better for you as the boss to take initiative in keeping the environment tolerable for your employees who aren’t the problem.

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        Oops, threadfail. Meant to put this under Plath’s suggestion above to just clean it up.

      2. e271828*

        Yeah, the LW insisting that Sally’s coworkers have to suffer before she does the thing she knows she needs to do is what is bringing Susie to tears. No, you can’t clean that up yourself, you have to ask mother to do it for you! Very frustrating for and disrespectful of everyone else in that office.

    7. WellRed*

      I’m confused. If other people are constantly cleaning up the mess how is stuff getting moldy?

      1. Slinky*

        It sounds like other people are cleaning up the shared areas. Moldy containers are in Sally’s office, which no one is cleaning.

        1. AlsoADHD*

          I don’t understand why LW hasn’t made Sally clean her office or addressed the health issue level mess there?

    8. NotAnotherManager!*

      All of this. I am not a particularly neat person, but I’m also not a gross person or someone who pollutes common areas of my office. (Early in my career, I was a petty person who deliberately left scatterings of paper and office supplies on my desk because my obnoxious office mate was an everything-in-it’s-place sort who would not lay off the passive-aggressive comments about cleanliness and godliness. With some distances and experience, I do not recommend this approach and know it was petty and immature.)

      Sally’s behavior is unacceptable. She’s not just cluttered, she’s creating an unsanitary situation, intruding on common spaces, and creating an unsightly office environment, which is an incredibly bad look for clients. Again, not a neat freak, but I would have a similar reaction to Susie’s – it’s gross and unacceptable, and why isn’t it resolved yet?

      OP needs to be working out of this office and dealing much more directly and immediately with Sally. It should not be on Sally’s office mates to contact OP when there is a situation, OP KNOWS there is a situation and needs to be onsite to deal with it. This is not performance coaching or skills improvement, this is telling Sally every single day (and immediately) that she cannot leave things in common areas, that she needs to throw away the moldy food, and that she must work in her own office and maintain it in a condition where that can happen. HR may not be taking it seriously because OP doesn’t seem to be. The issue here is less Susie’s reaction and that Sally has been allowed to continue this way for so long.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I do wonder what kind of feedback OP is giving Sally. OP said Sally hasn’t responded to “typical feedback” but we seasoned AAM readers know that sometimes managers will soften the message so as to not seem so harsh. OP, I apologize if you’ve already tried this, but have you actually delineated for Sally what she needs to be doing WRT cleanliness? Weird though this may seem, some people just don’t have any idea that they are slobs compared to the rest of the world, and they might also have no idea what “cleaning up” really means.

        I know, I know, I’m sure Susie and the other officemates have told her she needs to clean up, but maybe she *really* needs a specific action item list. Like, it could be really condescending to say to her “You need to keep all of your work things in your office and not in the common areas” or “You must throw away all food containers at the end of the day or take them home with you,” but it could also be that she really needs this kind of direction.

        Listen, I’m not the tidiest person in the world and I’m the last person who would say a total slob can’t also be a really diligent employee, but is this the only issue you have with Sally? Someone who appears to be ignoring direct orders to literally clean up their act also seems like the kind of employee who ignores a lot of other direct orders too.

        1. Slow Gin Lizz*

          Also possibly condescending but maybe helpful suggestion: tell Sally she needs to spend 15-30 minutes every day washing her dishes and putting her work items back in her office. Be like, hey, this counts as work time, not personal time, for you to keep the office presentable for clients, so you must take the time to do so.

          Honestly, the fact that this is an office where y’all see actual *clients* and Sally’s been doing this (for how long? OP didn’t say and I do hope it’s only been weeks or a couple of months and not a year+) is wild. Obviously someone in their early 20s hasn’t necessarily learned workplace norms yet and it’s pretty clear that Sally didn’t learn how to keep a space neat for others, but it’s still pretty wild to me that she hasn’t caught on that other people find moldy food and piles of other people’s things off-putting even after being told this multiple times. I often think that what is common sense for some people is complicated or foreign to others, depending on what is easier or harder for people to understand, but not keeping moldy food lying around is one of the few things I can say really is common sense.

    9. umami*

      I honestly don’t understand how there continue to be moldy food to clean up?? If Susie is cleaning up so regularly, how is this continuing to happen? But also, OP needs to just … go over there and observe for herself. See the mess, document it, and be very specific with Sally what the expectations are for cleanliness and order in the office. Show the pictures, set the expectations, and DEAL WITH IT.

      1. Andromeda Carr*

        I have had a couple of roommates who would continually repeat this process:
        1) let dishes and containers grow mold in their room
        2) take the containers out of their room and leave them in common spaces
        2a) often sideways so that the mold and rotten food could spill out onto shared furniture
        The step they would [purposefully] omit would be to place the dishes in the sink and the containers in the trash, thus forcing others to do so.

        I wonder if Sally is using similar methods to halfway-dispose of her moldy items.

    10. Ginger Family Med NP*

      The thing that gets me about the whole situation is that Sally makes messes that even SALLY cannot work in – and then because of it, she spreads out to the rest of the office and infests the common spaces with her messes as well!
      I don’t know about tears, but if I were Susie I’d be f***ing frustrated too.

    11. TheBunny*

      I get all of the issues with this. I do.

      But I also really feel for OP. Susie is cleaning up the mess and then calling OP once she’s done. OP needs 15 minutes to drive there and said they will…but they have to know.

      You can’t document something you don’t see. Susie is tying OP’s hands pretty dramatically here.

      Yes there are health issues and other concerns…but how is OP supposed to document if she only gets tearful reports? Susie is prolonging the problem by not following OP’s specific directions regarding handling it.

      I’m guessing HR is saying PIP because they know there is an issue but if no one sees it to address it, it’s a he said/she said situation and this is the best way to demonstrate that things need to change in the absence of the ability to document the exact issue.

      Susie needs to call OP and leave the mess. Can she call and then leave herself until OP gets there?

      1. Out of office, out of mind*

        If only everyone had a small, hand-sized device that could record images at zero cost.

      2. Limm*

        “You can’t document something you don’t see. Susie is tying OP’s hands pretty dramatically here.”

        No she’s not. LW could very easily be proactive and go to the office, considering the filth is an ongoing issue. And I don’t believe LW has zero other work commitments that they can always drop everything at a moment’s notice and be there in 15 mins.

        LW needs to do their job and stop ignoring this.

      3. FYI*

        “Susie is tying OP’s hands pretty dramatically here.”

        Hard disagree. NONE of this is Susie’s responsibility. The LW has a simple fix — work from that office for a month (at least) and manage Sally appropriately ON-SITE. Or fire Sally.

        It is LW who is tying Susie’s hands — by putting her in the middle of this dysfunctional situation.

    12. Clara*

      Yeah, I cannot express how much this manager has let Susie down. Both from a safety and general faith in the company / building a career their perspective. I hope the company gives Susie two weeks off and a spa gift card for putting up with this (the mess! and the ineffective management!) for so, so long. One day of filth is already too many days.

  5. StressedButOkay*

    I dealt with something close to this a few years ago (not the mess but the frustration that it didn’t seem like things were getting done about a problematic co-worker (PC)). The frustrated co-worker (FC) was so over it – and rightly so – that it was bleeding into their daily interactions with (PC).

    I sat FC down and said something along the lines of “I completely understand that you’re frustrated because of X and Y. It might seem like nothing is happening but I’m not just aware of these issues but actively working on them. If you run into an issue that you can’t resolve because of X and Y, please don’t hesitate to come directly to me instead of PC and I’ll make sure you get what you need in a timely fashion.”

    Basically, I addressed that I knew and understand the frustration (without showing my own!) and confirmed that things were happening behind scenes (it was coaching first, then a PIP) and then an action plan.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Yes, I like this script. A key difference for me is how you framed it as an *ongoing and present* problem you are working on.

      I’m probably overthinking this: If the OP is literally saying “it has been addressed”, as a coworker, I would be deeply frustrated because the problem is ongoing, so it certainly has NOT been addressed (i.e., fixed). From the outside, I could see OP means “addressed” as in “I’ve told Person-Making-Messes to stop”, but saying “I’m taking steps to handle it” would land a lot better.

      1. Productivity Pigeon*

        Agreed!

        If it’s taken months and months, that’s not ”addressing the issue” in my eyes.

  6. I NEED A Tea*

    I think OP needs to be at work when Sally is there. That way they don’t have to wait for a phone call from Susie, and can deal with Sally (and Susie) while the mess is being created.

    1. Antilles*

      I agree. Honestly in OP’s shoes, I’d want to be there if for no other reason than to figure out how the hell a single employee is making hour-long messes on a weekly (daily?) basis. Like, I’m legit not sure I could create an hour-long mess every day even if I was actively *trying* to do so.

      1. Heidi*

        I’m imagining the Peanuts character who walks around in a cloud of dust. I am also curious about what Sally says when this issue is addressed with her. She seems like such a non-entity in this story that is largely about her.

        1. MM*

          It really feels like OP is turning Susie into the problem in her mind rather than Sally, whether that’s because her hands have been tied in dealing with Sally or because Susie’s the one acting (rightly and out of necessity) as the squeaky wheel or both.

          1. BeyoncePadThai*

            I think the Susie part is just where OP is the most confused and needs Alison’s input. They clearly understand Sally is an issue, HR is also an issue and has *not* been helpful in addressing it, and they are abiding by their company’s bureaucracy to PIP Sally and address it. Where OP needs advice and input is how to manage Susie while all this is going on, and OP is just focusing on that more because that’s where they want Alison’s input the most. I don’t think OP actually thinks Susie is the more problematic employee than Sally.

    2. Roland*

      @I need a Tea — you are spot on! I wonder if OP softened the CleanUp with Sally? Alison in other stories indicated that Correction Softening was common.

      1. Roland*

        Hello, not sure if you’ve been commenting for a while and I’ve just missed your comments – I’ve been using “Roland” regularly for quite a while here, I don’t own it of course but it could get a bit confusing having 2 around :)

    3. Dust Bunny*

      Yeah, if these messes are happening daily/almost daily and take that long to clean up . . . that’s impressive not in a good way. That’s a tremendous amount of mess to create in a very short span of time. My office right now is messy, but nowhere near that messy, and it’s taken me two weeks and multiple ongoing projects to get there. No wonder Susie is frantic.

    4. Productivity Pigeon*

      I’d literally put her in my own room so that I could address it every single time she leaves food around or throws stuff on the floor or whatever else it is that she’s doing.

      (Honestly, I’m having a hard time understanding how she is producing that much trash and filth on a daily basis. Where does it all come from?)

      1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        If Sally is a hoarder, and not just a very slobby person, it could be anything–up to and including chicken bones found on the street outside the office, or broken umbrellas pulled out of dumpsters. I don’t know if this is to the point of mental illness, but if it is, it really could be anything. Some hoarders hoard dead animals and human waste (although I suspect if that was the case it would have been mentioned).

        1. Productivity Pigeon*

          Ah, thank you!
          I don’t know a whole lot about hoarding so I didn’t even consider that she might be brining in trash from the outside.

  7. No Achoo for You*

    These are messed that per OP, are taking an HOUR to clean up. This is happening almost daily. moldy food containers and other OSHA violations. DAILY. I would be in tears and ready to quit. and frankly having to call OP, get a hold of them, wait for the 15 minutes for OP to get there, then wait another hour for OP to clean the mess? DAILY? That is a SIGNIFICANT imposition on her ability to do her job. OP should not be surprised if very soon only Sally works out of that office at this point.

    1. Zona the Great*

      It absolutely isn’t hard to understand why Susie is near tears. This is no different than having a partner who treats the home recklessly while the other cleans up after them. Eventually, things come to a boil. It compounds and compounds until every single instance feels like the heaviest thing ever.

  9. Just a Pile of Oranges*

    Is there some way you can get Susie extra time out of the office while this process is moving? The mess is clearly stressing her out a great deal, and since you can’t get rid of the source of the mess yet, maybe you can just move Susie away from it for a bit?

    1. Ellis Bell*

      I feel like some heaven and definitely a bit more earth should be getting moved by OP while such an unsanitary situation appears to be going on unchecked. Moving people out, changing where clients visit, being closer to hand to witness how Sally is responding, having building facilities monitor the situation and send reports before cleaning up. I definitely don’t think just saying call me and I’ll come over and spend an hour cleaning up is going to cut it. I see how OP is going for “invested and helpful” with that approach but it’s not really coming across as constructive.

      1. StarTrek Nutcase*

        I think LW has failed her responsibility significantly: Susie & others by not taking stronger action, and Sally by allowing bad behavior to become habitual. LW is NOT really “invested or helpful” as she has very minimally acted. Sure HR may require documentation before termination, but LW had other options available from day 1. For example, LW could have: (1) given constant FIRM feedback, (2) arranged a set daily hourly meeting at Sally’s location so LW could react immediately, (3) insist & personally observe Sally clean her own mess each time. Instead LW shifted responsibility to Susie to “call” and continued to ignore obvious actions (see examples) and just wait for HR/PIP. LW is a perfect example of why people quit managers not jobs.

        1. Plate of Wings*

          I have to agree with this comment and your other one above. It sounds like LW is applying the wisdom “don’t share personnel issues with other staff” way, way beyond what’s reasonable because something could MAYBE tangentially hint at personnel issues.

          Also, even if my boss gave me a standing offer to call them to drive over and clean up, I would feel pretty uncomfortable taking them up on it. Especially if my boss wasn’t headed to my location anyways.

          Documenting is one thing, but driving over to clean it at my insistence? No, that would make me feel like I was the problem, and I’d just clean it because clients might arrive.

          That said, every boss I’ve ever had would probably ask that I take a photo on my phone and send it to them if they needed documentation. And they would give me a timeline without divulging truly private personnel information. Good God!

        2. FYI*

          THIS. I had a boss tell me to call every single time a persistent issue popped up. (It had been a pattern.) So, two days later, when it predictably happened again, I called. I got an eye roll and a “not now.” Awesome.

    2. Nanani*

      This. Give Susie another workspace. Have client meetings literally anywhere else. Virtually from Susie’s remote setup, a short-term rented office, LW s regular office, anything but the mold problem zone.
      This is the bare minimum while the larger picture gets addressed, IMO.

  10. constant_craving*

    I’d take the onus off of Susie here. The messes are daily. Why does Susie need to call? Sounds like LW needs to be starting the day off with a trip to the office to review the state of things as a standard thing, not only when a call is placed.

    1. Aggretsuko*

      YUP. There’s gonna be a Sally mess daily. OP needs to just start every day with cleaning it.

    2. Enai*

      Yes, good point. If that always happens, why make Susie call the boss just to report the human equivalent to “Yeah, boss, raccoons raided the unsecured garbage can. Again. Like they do every day.” Just either secure the attractive nuisance or organize cleanup (not poor Susie, though. She will quit if that goes on much longer, mark my words).

      1. But what to call me?*

        I deeply adore that unsecured garbage can comparison. Deeply.

        The problem is known. The problem is both preventable and predictable. It’s no mystery why Susie is at her wits end about having to repeatedly call and announce that the predictable, preventable problem has occurred yet again and then hope someone will come by quickly enough to return the office space to a usable condition for bringing in clients. Clients may not know or care that the mess is the fault of the raccoons and whatever policy makes it so hard to get a properly secured garbage can. Clients just know that Susie is meeting with them in an office full of garbage, which Susie either has to hope they ignore or find some way to explain to them that doesn’t make her or the company look bad. I’d be in tears, too, and definitely doing a whole lot of panicked cleaning rather than hoping my boss got there fast enough.

    3. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

      Also, I can see where Susie would hesitate to call her boss and ask the boss to come clean up. How incredibly awkward.

      1. Paint N Drip*

        I wonder how possible is it to even call OP without making it 100% obvious to Sally? Obviously in plenty of offices it is possible, but personally if I needed to call an external person to complain about something happening at my office there is NO way to make it not obvious. The interpersonal relationship HAS to have broken down btwn Sally and Susie – if I were Susie, I would both hate to be forced into snitching AND feeling awkward about doing it so obviously. Plus clients visiting the office being involved, ugghhhhhhhh. The whole thing is so wack!!

        1. Maple Cheesecake*

          This! Emphasizing on the part that contacting LW to come help clean up simply may not be feasible—especially if Sally is present in the common areas.

          When I was in a (miserable) position a while back where the onus of documenting my peer’s BS was squarely on my shoulders, it was nearly impossible to get it done without getting caught by the person in question. I got the 30 minutes she was at lunch, and that was about it. (And it was *way* more than 30min worth of documenting needed every day.)

          Like others have said, Sally herself is almost not even present in this letter, so we have no clue what her personality’s like—but I doubt she’s a sunflower. And to Susie it probably feels a heck of a lot safer to quietly clean up the mess and move on than have to bring on the drama of calling the manager, and potentially invoking wrath/passive aggression/just general ick.

          After all, manager’s clearly not present often. One of these people has to spend 40hrs a week crammed in with Sally and her mess, and it’s not LW.

          Gah, there’s just so much here that makes Susie’s impression that LW isn’t taking action carry weight. LW seems to be far more bark than bite.

      2. Kat*

        Agreed, I would actually be embarrassed to make such a call, even if I’d specifically been instructed to do it. It’s very “Moooooooommmmmmm, Billy forgot to unload the dishwasher again, why does he always get away with this?”

        1. Saturday*

          Yes, it’s very weird that Susie has to get caught up in the middle of this. If OP can’t work out of the office herself, hopefully she can at least come by regularly (ideally on a schedule) to make sure things are okay, especially before meetings with clients.
          Susie shouldn’t have to summon her.

    4. Na$ty Larry*

      Surely there’s a pattern to the time of day Susie is calling LW and LW could even just begin showing up around or before the time Susie usually calls.

      I’m also curious, since I don’t know what LW’s company is requiring for documentation, could LW ask Susie to first photograph the mess, send it to LW, and then LW can say “I’ll be there in 15 minutes to handle this” and if Susie is still determined to clean up the mess herself, then there was at least documentation of the state of things? This might even help Susie feel like more like something is being done if she can take an active role in it.

      1. I Have RBF*

        This.

        Part of why the LW needs Suzie to not clean it up is that there’s no documentation from LW for HR, just Suzie’s complaints.

        If Suzie does any cleanup, she needs to photograph the mess so that the LW has some proof of the ongoing problem.

    5. Middle Aged Lady*

      I would cry too if I were Susie. I feel like crying just reading it. I have a very sensitive nose and a horror of bugs and vermin being attracted to food waste, though I have never lived with someone who did this. But the clutter? I have lived with it to the point where it impeded my life and I feel irrationally angry when I have to be in a cluttered space where I can’t work or do things properly.

  11. Wednesday wishes*

    Geez has anyone ever just said to Sally- “please clean up your mess” ??

    1. Cookie Monster*

      Yeah, it hasn’t worked. Per the letter: “She has not responded to typical feedback or formal warnings…”

      1. WellRed*

        I wonder what these formal warnings are? Please clean up after yourself or… I’ll come do it for you?

      2. Fool's Gold*

        I’m so curious what form that “not responding to” takes. Like, did OP stand next to Sally, ask her to clean up the mess, and nothing happened? Then what? OP just walks away? Did Sally offer any explanation? I’m curious how you even go about not responding to questions about how you’re strewing filth all over the office on a daily basis.

        2. Redaktorin*

          I’ve seen someone go nonresponsive when confronted about not performing (and obviously having never learned to carry out, and lied about her abilities with regard to) a core job function. She kind of just dissociated and said “okay” repeatedly while appearing…blurry. I thought she was high, until the umpteenth time I watched her suddenly go from coherent to *unfocused* when someone tried to hold her accountable. In her weird zombie state, she’d sometimes say something untrue about everything being a random coworker’s fault. Much of the time she just said nothing at all, even when asked a direct question by her actual boss.

          Whenever the person trying to get her to take responsibility ended the conversation, she’d snap back to herself and animatedly report that she was being bullied to the grand-bosses.

          Anyway, I bet it’s something like this with Sally, a combination of what looks like mental illness and what definitely is manipulation—which is surprisingly hard to push back on in the moment, especially if HR says you’re not allowed to push back.

        3. Elsajeni*

          I read that as “not responding to” in the sense that, like, an illness might not respond to a medication — it’s not that Sally literally stands there and ignores you, it’s that the feedback/warning/plea for her to clean up doesn’t result in her making fewer messes or cleaning up the existing mess. (If I had to guess, I would put money on either: Sally says things like “okay, I know, I’m sorry, I’ll clean up” and then doesn’t, or, Sally cleans up a little bit in the short term but doesn’t make a dent in the main mess in her office or carry that forward to clean up the next mess she makes without prompting.)

    3. Great Frogs of Literature*

      I’m confused why Sally is still allowed to work out of any space other than her office. It wouldn’t fix the problem, but it would limit the damage to a confined space.

      1. Flor*

        My guess is that there’s no one to stop her because her manager is in a different location and, seemingly, she doesn’t actually listen to her manager (it’s unclear if LW has told her she must only work in her office or not, but given she’s failed to respond to other feedback, if LW has told her this I would imagine she’s just ignored it).

    4. pally*

      If Sally is anything like her counterpart here at my job, she cannot see the mess.
      I know, hard to believe.

      Over 20 years, our Sally’s ‘mess’ grew into most of the lab plus various storage rooms.

      She’s been asked time and time again to clean it all up. She will spend an entire day “cleaning”. Yet the ‘mess’ doesn’t get any smaller. If you start asking her why she is keeping outdated supplies, copies of testing or whatever, there’s always an explanation. Usually far-fetched.
      We finally just threw out about 75% of it. She was livid!
      Now the ‘mess’ is regrowing.

      1. Slow Gin Lizz*

        I read a book about hoarders about 15 years ago. They said that cleaning up a hoarder’s stuff for them doesn’t solve the problem at all, because they’ll just start hoarding again, as evidenced by your coworker. They also said that hoarding is a *very* difficult problem to solve psychologically. I know in the case of my two relatives who were/are hoarders that they grew up in times of shortage (Great Depression and similar) and certainly growing up very very poor when things were really hard to get contributed to their hoarding tendencies.

        1. Chirpy*

          This, cleaning up a hoarder’s mess without their consent actually makes the problem *worse* – hoarding is a symptom of a larger issue, and taking away the hoard makes the person feel less safe/ secure, and therefore they are compelled to recreate the hoard.

          ADHD type messes, however, cause overwhelm which makes the person freeze up and be unable to start cleaning because the task is too big/they don’t know where to put stuff. They often begin because the person was overwhelmed about something else, so the mess on top of the other issues is too much.

          1. AcademiaNut*

            Although from a work perspective the goal is to provide a workspace that is comfortable and safe for employees and customers, so cleaning up the mess without consent is a reasonable step if someone won’t clean up after themselves in the workplace. Trying to address the mental illness behind the mess is beyond the scope of the workplace (and wildly inappropriate), and reasonable accommodations don’t generally include health and safety hazards (like moldy food and fire hazards) or making every else work in chaos.

            1. Chirpy*

              Oh, definitely. I have cleaned up a hoarder’s mess at work- I had permission from management to blame them if asked by the hoarder who did it. Luckily, it was largely paper and not food trash, and not in a customer accesible area, but it was still months of sneakily straightening things when she wasn’t there, and then getting interrogated about it afterwards. But the OP’S situation where the mess explodes daily is a lot worse, my coworker’s mess was easier to at least contain.

        2. Dahlia*

          Some forms of hoarding are considered a type of OCD. Like with OCD, how it doesn’t really fix it if you say, “I cleaned that!” if a person believes that not cleaning the counter will cause them or someone else to get greviously ill.

          Mental illnesses do tend to not be rational or easily solved by changing the outside factors.

        3. Laser99*

          I think I read the same book. I remember the term “churning” which sounds like the person in pally’s comment. The hoard is moved around to make it appear as if the hoarder is cleaning.

      3. Saturday*

        Unneeded junk is one thing, but moldy food is another. ‘Clean up any and all food waste’ is a clearer direction than ‘clean up the mess,’ where one person’s mess is another person’s intentionally preserved items.

  12. Clearance Issues*

    just knowing that SOMETHING is happening helps so much. It definitely took a manager telling me to “let So-and-so fail so I can document” to stop cleaning up figurative messes.

  13. BrunetteBubbly*

    Could you ask Susie to take photos/video of the mess each time it happens and share them with you? Even if they’re superfluous to your own documentation of the issue, giving her the ability to take some kind of meaningful action instead of just “leave it until I get there” might help her feel like something is being done.

    1. NotAnotherManager!*

      Shoot, I’d also send these to HR so they fully appreciate just how gross this is and what a poor reflection it is on the organizations for clients to see such things.

      When I was a tweenager, my room was a disaster area (no food, though! my sister leveled up to that grossness). My grandma lightly suggested to my mom that she “just close the door” – in response to which my mother sent her a photo of my room. Grandma agreed that she could not ignore that either and didn’t appreciate how bad it was until she saw the photo. Maybe that would work here.

      1. Distracted Librarian*

        This. I wonder if HR is just hearing, “Sally is messy,” rather than, “Sally is growing mold cultures in her office.” Take pictures and video and send them to HR–or, better, invite HR to view the carnage themselves.

      2. allathian*

        I draw the line at rotting food items and dirty dishes.

        Our son generally eats his dinner at his computer, family dinners only happen on holidays in our family. The recommendation that family dinners are great opportunities to talk with the family we ignore, the point is that we have lots of opportunities to talk without them, and he does. (His surly teen phase lasted about two months when he was 14 and would barely say good morning, please and thank you to us.)

        It has to be said, though, that our son’s quite houseproud and his room’s often the least cluttered one in the house!

        I think it’s very important that kids, especially teens, have even a tiny space they can call their own. When my sister and I were growing up we shared a room most of the time, but we each had our side of the room and our own desks and closets that the other wasn’t allowed to touch without permission. Better than nothing but I suspect we would’ve fought less if we’d each had a room where we could get away from the other.

        I just wonder how long Sally’s been allowed to keep making this mess… It really looks as if she needs a manager to be at the same office more often, preferably every day. And Susie definitely needs to know that the LW’s taking steps to deal with Sally, but that Susie needs to stop cleaning Sally’s messes for this to go forward.

        Leaving messes at the office like Sally’s doing is far from normal or acceptable behavior. That said, Susie’s reaction is also excessive.

  14. Benihana scene stealer*

    I’m so curious what Sally’s take on all this is. Does she think it’s no big deal? Is she just absent minded? Does she have an illness of some kind..

    But I also agree Susie is overreacting here too. Weird all around

    1. H.Regalis*

      It could be so many things. I lived with someone who had some quite nasty personal hygiene (trailing shit everywhere) and he just . . . didn’t care. Told me it was my problem if I was bothered by human shit being places other than the toilet.

      Sally could be a hoarder, Sally could be a huge jerk, Sally could just be really fucking gross . . . there are so many possible explanations and we’ll never know for sure. We just know that it needs to stop.

    2. Jennifer Strange*

      I don’t think Susie is overreacting. She has to host clients (people she is cultivating or stewarding relationships with for money) in what sounds like a veritable pigsty. This is directly interfering with her doing her job and could lose her/the company clients. And that’s not even getting to the fact that she is being forced to work in an office that likely stinks/has bugs/is difficult to maneuver around. That’s not to say I don’t understand the bind the LW is in by having to go through a PIP, but I completely get Susie’s frustrations.

      1. Benihana scene stealer*

        I agree overall – for the overreacting I meant the daily calls in tears. That seems a bit much, but yeah doesn’t really change the overall situation other than further frustrating the LW.

        I mean the whole thing seems very dysfunctional…Papers and files are on thing but you can’t just leave old food lying around. Sounds like nobody seems to care that much which is very odd

        1. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

          I think her ability to cope has been worn away almost completely, and that she’ll be leaving quite soon unless things change.

          LW, I don’t know why you aren’t allowed to sack Sally. I don’t know what financial constraints and obligations you have.

          I can tell you that at this point, in your shoes, I would be getting ready to give my notice. What I read here is that you have supervisory responsibility without the power to sack people. That cannot work.

        2. Starbuck*

          If I’d been working in an office with regular moldy messes and stuff in my way in shared areas, for months, after I’d repeatedly made Boss aware of it and absolutely nothing had changed… yeah I can picture the tears happening at some point.

          It’s just such a totally unnecessary added level of stress on top of doing your actual job, it’s a HUGE morale killer. Like I just want to organize my files and call my clients and work productively with other adults, and now it’s like I have a toddler in the workplace to clean up after? Totally infuriating. Especially if I have any added pressure from the job itself, like I’m on a deadline and I just wanted to make myself a quick cup of coffee but the counter is covered in shit, for the sixth time this month? I’d lose it!

        3. Green T*

          I think the cumulative stress is what gets to you: I lived in a country that is pretty much built on cockroaches and the first time I saw one, ok, yuck. The second, third, fourth…okay, yuck. But after battling them with IGR and diatomaceous earth and rotating imported baits and keeping everything in at least three layers of sealed plastic with diatomaceous earth in each layer for three years? I was in tears every time I saw one, even though I KNEW they weren’t breeding in my place, they were breeding in my neighbor’s garden slash compost heap. Cumulative stress is no joke!

        4. Allonge*

          Just as some people have a high tolerance for messes, there are others who have a lower one (without it being a medical thing). Meeting something low-key annoying day to day is already difficult; if it’s medium-level annoying, you are obviously in the right and your employer is doing nothing, that will wear everyone down.

    3. Ellis Bell*

      She probably doesn’t see it, doesn’t agree it’s a problem or doesn’t have the habits to help her avoid making the mess. I think a lack of life skills this basic can’t really be solved by a PIP which is sad because dragging it out helps no one.

    4. Paint N Drip*

      I definitely tend towards messiness, more clutter than Sally’s flavor of biohazard. I’m not good at DESIGNING the organization process – if there is already organization in place, I can absolutely follow it and keep things neat. Part of my issue is visual=concentration – I need all the things in my line of sight, or they will be forgotten (the Getting Things Done method is a work in progress). Another part of my issue is the people that surround me tend to have a much lower threshold for mess than I do, so I’ve spent a lot of time not comprehending basic tidying because I wasn’t the one doing it (one of my biggest ‘only child’ symptoms! adulthood has cured much of this). Not an ‘all the time’ issue but sometimes when I have a project where I need space (physical or just mental), I will have too much mess where it makes sense to work and have to set up somewhere else – if I had to guess, this is the vibe that has Sally’s mess spilling out into the common areas

    5. Productivity Pigeon*

      Where is she even getting all of this trash from? I genuinely don’t understand how she can produce so much mess on a near daily basis?

  15. The Formatting Queen*

    Alison suggested the LW work in the other office for the time being, or move Sally to her office, but another option is moving *Susie* to the other office so she no longer has to work in the same space as Sally.

  16. Whoopsie*

    If you know this is a daily occurance, why aren’t you working at that location to deal with Sally before she has the chance to spread out her mess? You’re so insistent that it only takes you 15 minutes to get over there from your current location, compared to the hour it takes to clean up after her. You’ve known this is an issue, you’ve been told repeatedly it’s an issue, you’ve had a very simple way to address this issue long before this point, and yet you haven’t done it. And you staying at Sally’s location wouldn’t have needed HR involvement.

    2. Samwise*

      Because maybe OP has a full day of things to do at the other office that need to be done at the other office.

      1. Boof*

        Then it’s disingenuous to instruct Susie call constantly to have them come over and fix it when they can’t. Unless the timelines are somehow way off here (ie, messes are actually every other week, but stress about possible messes are nearly daily, IDK it’s not quite making sense to me)

        1. yvve*

          if it really is 15 minutes (like a 10 minute drive + 5 minutes other), then there might be time to go over once a day in order to get documentation, but not to spend all day there if there’s stuff they can’t do at that office.

          Also, if OP is trying to work directly with Sally to get her to clean, it would be a lot easier if they can literally point at the problem and ask her to explain it/fix it.

  17. Ellen N.*

    I disagree that Susie’s reaction to Sally’s messes is excessive.

    It takes several days for food to get moldy, so the letter writer isn’t cleaning the messes as they happen.

    Also, moldy food smells awful.

    2. But what to call me?*

      Also the likelihood that old food sitting around is attracting bugs. That alone would be enough to have me in tears if I knew the company was perfectly capable of preventing it (by firing Sally if she refused to clean up after herself) and just couldn’t be bothered to do anything about it.

      I also keep coming back to the fact that she sees clients in this place. That means she has to either frequently apologize for the mess or worry those clients assume she’s fine meeting them in an office full of moldy food.

    3. LingNerd*

      Moldy food might be weekly instead of daily – if stuff regularly gets left over the weekend, I imagine Mondays could pretty regularly have moldy food around the office

  18. The Green Lawintern*

    I wonder if Susie only discovers the messes right as clients arrive, which means 1) she has to clean it up immediately because she can’t wait for LW to drive over, and 2) there’s a heightened sense of stress because the client is right there, waiting.

    (Also y’all, can we not feed the troll please.)

    1. GoForIt*

      This is what I wanted to add! If they have clients coming in to the office soon, it is completely understandable that Susie does not have the time to call OP to come over and clean up the mess as it just needs to be done; it’s a matter of the presentability and reputation of the company when clients come in. If I walked into an attorney’s office, for example, and the common areas were filthy, that gives me information about that firm. It doesn’t matter if it’s one person causing it, it reflects poorly overall about the office/company.

      Sounds like Susie is doing her best to keep the place presentable for when clients come in, and I don’t think it’s an overreaction to be upset about the daily issues caused by her coworker’s messiness.

      1. Part time lab tech*

        True, my husband is like this. He simply can’t see past mess and feels physically on edge. Twice now, once as a potential client and a couple of times when looking at houses, he’s flat out refused to even consider something because it was very messy. I, on the other hand, hold mess as ephemeral and fixable although moldy food is disgusting.

  19. Goldenrod*

    Honestly, I find both Sally and Susie annoying in this scenario!

    It’s bewildering why Sally has been allowed to continue to do this…but I almost find it even more annoying that Susie cleans up and then cries about it. They are both being ridiculous.

      1. Zarniwoop*

        It’s a problem to complain about having done something you were specifically told not to do.

        1. Andromeda Carr*

          Susie has been put in a dilemma. Follow her boss’s dictum and sit in a pile of mess, and have every client come in, look at the mess, and *look* at her, or clean up the mess while being frustrated by what looks to her like a situation where nothing is being done. I think it’s reasonable to be frustrated by such a situation, even to the point of tears. We are people, not automata.

          1. NothingIsLittle*

            Unless there’s context we don’t have, that dichotomy is a fiction. OP explicitly states that she would do the cleaning herself (with 15 minutes driving) if Susie would alert her to the mess. So the actual options are to clean the mess my coworker has made or alert my boss that my coworker has made an unacceptable mess again and wait some amount of time. (Tears are honestly reasonable in both situations if she’s been dealing with this for so long.) Unless Suzie’s tried to have the OP clean the mess before and OP has responded unfavorably, or there are other complicating factors that the letter hasn’t illuminated, it’s just not accurate to say her options are ignoring instructions to clean it or suffering. It’s understandable that she might not trust the OP’s response after seeing no improvement from Sally, but it’s pretty tangible whether the mess gets cleaned or not.

            Suzie is being deliberately insubordinate; that is a serious problem.

            To be clear, Suzie is completely justified in being frustrated! But her response can’t be to consistently ignore instructions. Can Suzie work from home? She really should not need to be working in filth.

            1. Andromeda Carr*

              I remain unconvinced that Susie is *worse* than Sally, which is the topic of this subthread. Also being as that Suzie has to work with clients in person (” they want the office to be presentable when clients visit”) if she worked from home she’d have to work with clients in her home, which presents what I hope are obvious logistical problems.

              To be honest I think a certain subset of commenters turned on Susie once she was reported as crying. In the business world many people think that is the absolutely worst thing a woman can do and utterly unforgivable. Reasons why are also so obvious as to not need to be stated.

              1. NothingIsLittle*

                While I’m certain it’s true that mentioning Suzie crying turned a subset of commenters against her, I think you’re underestimating the impact of her choice to ignore the OP’s instructions. It seems to me that Suzie’s actions are directly preventing OP from solving the issue. (“which is making it hard for me to hold Sally accountable.” I’m not sure if the OP just means making Sally clean it or if she means documentation.) I don’t think it’s unreasonable for a hypothetical manager to find it more annoying to manage someone who’s insubordinate and not trying to listen, but otherwise does good work, than to manage someone they’re resigned to firing.

                (Context, I’m AFAB. Suzie can cry if she needs to.)

                1. Jennifer Strange*

                  OP could solve the issue by simply going to the office on her own instead of waiting for Susie to call. Asking Susie to instead sit in that mess and host clients in it is simply not a reasonable request, so I’m going to give Susie a pass on being “insubordinate” the same as I would any employee being told to do something that isn’t reasonable.

                2. NothingIsLittle*

                  Jennifer, I agree that OP should be preemptively going to the office. However, as I said above, OP is not asking Suzie to sit in the mess, she is asking Suzie to report the mess to her and OP will clean it (in 15 minutes). It’s reasonable to say, “give me half an hour to clean this so I can document it.”

                3. Jennifer Strange*

                  First, Susie has to host visitors in this space. If they’re going to be there in ten minutes and CAN’T wait. It will reflect poorly on her to greet them in this mess.

                  Second, the boss isn’t going to clean it in 15 minutes, that’s just how long it takes to drive there. What if the boss is in a meeting when Susie calls? How long will it take boss to get to their car from where they’re sitting when Susie calls? What if they hit traffic? That’s too long to expect someone to sit in something that sounds like a biohazard.

                  Has the LW asked Susie why she’s cleaning it instead of calling? I’m guessing there’s a good reason for it. If the boss can’t be bothered to simply go in and manage the problem they know exists I’m hard pressed to think poorly of Susie who is now having to manage it.

                4. NothingIsLittle*

                  Deleting a much longer comment to say that your concerns do not reflect my reading of the letter. I am not saying that it is impossible for Suzie to be acting reasonably from her position, but I am saying that it is reasonable for OP to hypothetically be more aggravated with Suzie for consistently making her job harder even though she wants to keep her on, than Sally, who OP is resigned to firing.

            2. Green T*

              But if Sally’s office is so bad that even Sally can’t work in it… there’s ALWAYS a mess then! Shouldn’t the OP be…cleaning it? There’s a weird missing stair disconnect here with the OP because they sounds very willing to clean the office but it sounds like the office (including Sally’s space) is ALWAYS dirty (apart from Susie doing common area sweeps) and the OP has…not cleaned it. So does Susie call every time Sally leaves a container? Two? A pile of papers? I feel like “monitor the level of mess and then call me” is an unreasonable, stressful ask when OP knows there is a consistent issue. if you’re willing to clean, OP, set a schedule, start with Sally’s office, and come clean daily. it sounds like that’s what is needed more than Susie to monitor the mess and call you when it reaches some state of critical that is between”we have a toxic office that cannot be used” and “I am embarrassed to entertain clients in the main area”

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Except the context doesn’t support that Susie’s behavior (being driven to tears by having to work/entertain clients in a pigsty) is worse than Sally’s (being a disgusting both in your office as well as common areas that you share with others). That’s what Andromeda was responding to.

        2. Kevin Sours*

          The context is Susie is being asked to tolerate an office full of moldy garbage while management twiddles their thumbs.

    3. Pay no attention...*

      I agree with you up to a point about them both being a problem. If Alison is correct that Susie is overreacting to the mess — crying and taking an hour of work to clean when she’s been explicitly told NOT to clean — that is also a problem…but not as much as the mess. Sally needs to go immediately, but I’m not 100% sure that Susie is going to become a model employee afterward if she is freely challenging her boss about how the situation is being handled — questioning whether Sally has been talked to and disobeying a directive. It might not be worth the trouble rebuilding Susie’s “trust.”

      1. MsM*

        I think Susie’s fully entitled to question whether anything’s being done when she’s still dealing with moldy garbage on a regular basis, and I sincerely hope she won’t be in a situation this extreme again if she stays with this employer.

        1. Roland*

          Right. OP can’t honestly reassure her because the situation is not reassuring. I hope Susie leaves for a comparable or better job.

      2. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

        What the LW is asking her to do, is not reasonable. You cannot expect someone to just sit with mold like that (sanitation workers handle it, but where it’s supposed to be).

        It isn’t possible to evaluate Susie’s performance right now, because she is trapped in a (literally) toxic work environment with no end date, or clear plan for improvement.

        1. yvve*

          but the mold, presumably, is not happening “daily”, or it wouldnt have time to grow. Whatever mess sally is making in the common areas, its unlikely to be so toxic/dangerous it cant wait 15 minutes

          1. Andromeda Carr*

            Maybe Sally has a big pile of moldy containers in her office which she keeps doling out to the rest of the workplace. As I described in another comment I’ve seen similar.

      3. Grizzled*

        If I was Susie and had to obey LW’s orders, I would be telling clients that I didn’t make the mess and that I was ordered not to clean it. I wouldn’t allow poor management to make me look bad – send that straight back to them!

    4. NotAnotherManager!*

      If you were having clients to you office, would you want them walking by Sally’s piles of crap and moldy food office decor? No. We don’t know if the client meetings impact profits/business either – Susie may be cleaning to protect her own professional reputation and income. So, since Sally won’t clean it up, Susie feels obligated to do so. She has also been letting her boss know about this for some time, and the situation is not improving. I’m sure she feels very frustrated and powerless to get out of this cycle and some people (present company included) can cry out of frustration, anger, etc.

      Frankly, I’d probably have ended up from HR from losing my shit at Sally because I just cannot with moldy/rotten food. Nope.

      1. DramaQ*

        Considering the mess keeps coming back and the LW’s solution to is to say “Call me and I will drive 15 minutes to come clean it up. Meanwhile sit in it and wait” is bonkers. I would absolutely be driven to tears as well. Putting Sally on a PIP is not solving anything.

        You cannot PIP away this type of behavior. I’ve worked with professors like this they had stuff in their offices older than I am! You could clean every single day and somehow more stuff would magically appear to take its place. PIPs are for performance issues where you can have measurable metrics to go by. Sally can’t even go ONE DAY without the mess coming back. We learned in kindergarten to clean up after ourselves. If she hasn’t figured it out by now that is not something the company can fix.

        Susie has to sit in garbage. Susie has to deal with clients, clients who do not want to sit in garbage or look at garbage either. She has nothing to give a client who sees the mess beyond a shrug and say LW will be here to clean it.

        Susie probably knows this can cost the company clients, which in turn puts her job in a precarious position.

        Susie has to daily call her boss to tattle on Sally and then sit there with her hands in her lap till LW gets there to clean it. Every day. Susie is being expected to monitor and babysit Sally without any real authority or control. What if she can’t get ahold of the LW and a client is going to be there? I can understand why Susie says screw it and cleans herself.

        I’d be in tears too. Only my tears would be of anger and I would be pouring those 15 minutes I’m waiting for the LW to come into the office and then spend an hour cleaning looking for another job. Susie shouldn’t be in the position she has been put in. If the company and LW want Sally on a PIP then the company/LW needs to either move Sally to the other office or move LW to the office so they are right there to clean and document the moment the mess happens. The way they are doing it now is dumb. Something being done means Susie shouldn’t have to sit in filth and Sally is fired not they are going to spend 60-120 having her call the LW for documentation.

    5. anglerfish*

      It’s possible the mess is spilling into Susie’s space and “sit with it” doesn’t mean “look at it” but rather “you must literally work *in* it”. I had a coworker do exactly this, she’d leave things (trash) on my desk “just for a moment” and then never come back for them (and yes I did get mean comments from coworkers and department heads about how messy my desk was, even though I was *also* under a directive not to clean her messes. You can bet I cried a few time over that, and it was ultimately a major factor in quitting that job).

      Or Susie could be walking around the entire office with a client to try and find a clean conference room when every single one has Sally’s trash scattered around it. If the OP is calling it a 15 minute drive, it could be a half-hour or more between receiving the phone call and actually getting to the part where she starts cleaning the mess.

      OP also doesn’t say how long this has been going on, if it’s more than a month *and* she’s slow to get to the mess, I can see exactly why Susie is fed up and cleaning the mess herself. She’s not crying about the mess, she’s crying because the one person with the authority to address the issue appears not to be (and if OP is really saying “it’s been addressed” while the problem is ongoing, then yeah, it looks like OP isn’t addressing it).

      You finding the crying as annoying as the mess-making is something internal to yourself that you should probably examine.

    6. USTransplant*

      I’m most annoyed at the manager. There is no way there is effective management happening here. People have come up with so many good suggestions that would be so easy to implement based on LW’s statements, but somehow this continues to be allowed to drag on. You’re messy is one thing, but this is soooo far beyond that that it needed to be addressed firmly the first time it happened. In what world is filling all common areas with filth something that receives multiple warnings, redirections and a PIP? And why is this person not stepping up and managing more actively?

  20. Justme, The OG*

    I work in higher education and we had one professor who was a hoarder, but nobody said anything because he was tenured. When he finally retired, our poor facilities people had a heck of a time cleaning it for the next occupant. There weren’t bugs (surprisingly) but it was a complete gut job otherwise. People are allowed to be like that if they don’t have accountability.

    1. AFac*

      Ugh, there’s been more than one of them.

      For our professor, there were consequences that made his life more difficult. But he always adapted to the consequences rather than change his cleanliness habits.

          1. Academic Physics*

            If you’re lucky they only hoard books that are clean(ish) that they then give away!

            1. allathian*

              That’s what my dad did! When he retired, he had not only shelves full of books and academic journals, but also stacks on the floor.

              My parents are still married and will probably remain so until one of them dies, but they live in separate apartments because my dad’s a hoarder and my mom can’t live like that. He has a labyrinth of bookshelves set up in his living room. I’d say it’s a fire hazard, but because he owns his apartment there’s little anyone can do about it. Granted, he never cooks and his biggest fire hazard’s probably his TV…

    2. Timothy (TRiG)*

      Was his name Leslie Bairstow? Did he catalogue “pieces of string 2–3 feet” and “pieces of string too small to be of use”?

    3. NotAnotherManager!*

      I worked with an attorney that had a near labyrinth in their office from piles of documents and boxes of paper (this was in the 90s when nearly everything was paper). Trying to hold a meeting in his office with him was a real challenge, especially if there was more than one attendee. The chairs were covered (“Oh, just set that on the floor for now.”), the boxes were stacked up the wall, and, at times, it genuinely felt like one of them would topple over while you were sitting there. They had to pay a special bonus to the admin and records clerk that inventoried and cleared his office when he left – we had to retain client files, so they couldn’t just toss everything.

      1. Venus*

        My one workplace had people move between teams every few years and at one point it was easier for everyone to move to the paper hoarder rather than move him to the four of us.
        Thankfully it was a similar situation to yours, all piles boxes and books, so nothing dirty. At some point they needed to replace the floors in the entire location so coworker had to clean up his piles. It took him a long time and some really big recycling bins, though he was near retirement so I think he accepted that it was necessary and did it without complaint. He was always excellent at knowing where to find a report or paper, so it was well organized and regularly referenced.

        1. Cat*

          These replies feel really uncharitable and off-topic. We aren’t here to diagnose anyone in any letters, and even if we had a diagnosis I don’t think sharing unflattering stories about other people with that diagnosis would be useful here.

            1. Cat*

              Understood, but I don’t believe “fascinating and interesting” are mutually exclusive from “cruel and off-topic”.

              I have a hoarder in my life. I would never dream of discussing their struggles (or my struggles with them) in a place like this.

          2. NotAnotherManager!*

            They are further examples that many of us have dealt with people incapable of managing their workspaces in a manner that does not impact others. I don’t believe other comments are using the term “hoarders” as a professional diagnosis, but in the colloquial sense of someone who amasses so much material that their workspace is unusual, difficult to navigate and impacts others – which is exactly what Susie is doing.

            This isn’t about being “unflattering”, it’s about the perspective that Susie is not alone, that she’s not overreacting to the situation (as LW seems to suggest), and that LW needs to realize the impact this is having on her team/the other office.

            I fail to see how this is uncharitable or off topic at all. This is simply an example of workplace behaviors that have a negative impact on coworkers, and, like most coworker-impacting behaviors, commenters have experienced them firsthand and can empathize with Susie.

  21. Elara Harper*

    I would have fired her already. It’s one thing if your private space looks like a tornado dumped every piece of paper in the office there; but it’s a complete other thing to make shared spaces unusable, draw vermin and pests, and force co-workers to use paid work time to clean up after one person. Seriously, having multiple conversations/crying sessions over the same issue, paying to clean, and suggesting a supervisor drive 15 minutes each way and spend an hour cleaning, is a HUGE waste of company resources. There is a business reason to stop this issue now, not in whatever period is planned for this PIP. What if said employee was coming in everyday and urinating on the carpet? Is there a PIP for that?

    1. Sola Lingua Bona Lingua Mortua Est*

      I wonder if this is a place where an employee goes on a PIP when they stop showing up for work every day?

  22. e271828*

    I’m with Susie, this has been going on too long and if it takes the LW 15 minutes to get there an an hour to clean up Sally’s mess, while the other occupants of the office are trying to see clients, why isn’t LW just working out of that office? Why even are they waiting another week to put Sally on a PIP, which is not going to be effective? Why is anyone else still working there?

    1. duinath*

      yeah… bottom line, actions speak louder than words, and the reason susie doesn’t buy that lw is handling this is that this should have *been* handled and done with already.

      people believe you will handle it when they see you handle it. when you fail to do that, be it because you thought that was the better option or because your company policy dictates it, they will naturally doubt you when you say you are.

      at this point, convincing susie is secondary, and actually handling sally is more important. hopefully it will restore some faith, on susie’s part, as well.

  23. An introvert in an extrovert's world*

    I’m not a neat nick by any means, but there is no way I would calmly tolerate a filthy office mate sharing a space where I need to see clients! I personally also hate overly dramatic coworkers too, but Susie’s upset is understandable and reasonable. You need to be in the office every day until this is resolved.

    1. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      And I’m a bit of a slob and would find this gross. My desk is usually chaotic, but I’m very conscientious about not expanding my mess to other areas.

      1. MsM*

        +1, and also, I confine my mess to papers. I cannot get past the fact biohazards are apparently not enough to employ a “one strike and you’re out” approach here.

        1. allathian*

          Yes, I also confine my mess to papers in my home office. At the office we hotdesk and consequently have a strict clean desk policy, and while it’s a bit sterile, at least I don’t have to look at other people’s messes!

  24. Female Engineer*

    I think working full day’s from Sally’s office or at least daily visits needs to happen until Sally if fired or completes the PIP.

    An hour to clean up the mess? Holy heck, that just isn’t one day’s worth of food containers.

    1. tired beau*

      An hour is telling me that it’s not just cleaning up and a quick wipe down, but rather they’re having to practically deep clean away the mold/mess. This is absolutely ridiculous.

  25. Fire Sally*

    If I were Susie I would cry at this too. The frustration of it seemingly not being addressed would make me cry. Working in those conditions day after day would make me cry. Feeling like it wasn’t being taken seriously…all of this combined would make me cry in frustration and anger. Her reaction is not excessive.

    2. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

      Can also be an even be a symptom of burnout, which is caused by environmental factors beyond the person’s control, such as this. I feel for Susie. She works in a pig sty.

  26. Insert Pun Here*

    I have had Problematic Coworkers in the past, though not this specific issue, and the only things that would convince me that something was being done were (a) a change in behavior or an apology, as applicable or (b) problematic coworker getting fired. Until one of those things happens, I’m seriously considering whether this is a job I want to stay in and (if it drags on long enough) starting to send out resumes. So however long it takes you to solve this problem, you want it to not be a lot longer than it would take your other employees to get a new job.

    1. FattyMPH*

      Yeah, I really am shocked that Susie still works there. I think OP is looking at a situation where she loses one or more good employees over a bad one. And hopefully it’s only employees and not clients as well.

    2. Endless TBR Pile*

      Strongly agree.

      We have a Problematic Coworker at my job (not a slob, just a B) that has had so many people make complaints against her. To be told it’s “being addressed” ad nauseum with no change is gutting. Because after a while, that stops holding weight and value. If something has been a prolonged issue, platitudes stop being meaningful.

    3. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

      I think part of the problem is saying “it has been addressed.” Past tense. I would understand that to mean that something happened and the process is done now. Basically, case closed, so shut up and go away. Whereas I think the LW actually means that she has talked to Sally and escalated the situation. She has done stuff to address it.

      This is very different from saying “it is being addressed,” meaning that there is an ongoing process to deal with it.

      I appreciate that the LW is being mindful of Sally’s right to privacy. It’s important! Though I agree with Alison that the LW could say a bit more to the other staff. Basically, acknowledge that you agree that this is a problem and can’t continue and that there are processes underway to address the issue and get things resolved.

      1. Guacamole Bob*

        Totally agreed. “It’s been addressed” is a blow off. I’d expect something more like “I hear you on how frustrating this is, and I want you to know that I am actively working to resolve this issue. Our company process has taken longer than I’d like, but I hope these messes will not continue beyond another few weeks. In the meantime, you’re welcome to work from home or out of the other office, and I’d appreciate your help in reporting and allowing me to document the issue if it recurs while you’re in the office.”

        1. Kevin Sours*

          This is the key part: “Our company process has taken longer than I’d like, but I hope these messes will not continue beyond another few weeks.”

          You need to provide information that makes it clear that you are actually working on it and to provide a timeline that you can be held accountable to. Anything else is going to sound like a blow off.

      2. juliebulie*

        I agree – if I were in Susie’s place I’d be deep into a job search by now. I don’t know that it isn’t too late already and she’s already mentally checked out of there, but just in case Susie hasn’t given up yet, it’d be very helpful (and kind) to Susie to let her know that things are in motion (assuming they really are and it isn’t just talk).

        If there must be a PIP before termination, it had better have good teeth.

        I realize some organizations are squeamish about letting people go, but they should also be squeamish about mold.

      3. Insert Clever Name Here*

        So much yes. I hope LW reads this, immediately drives to the other office, uses Alison’s script with Susie, and then tells Susie she should work from OP’s office in the other location for (the rest of this week and the duration of the PIP).

      4. Old Bag*

        I have issues with the privacy angle.
        Obviously I don’t think we should be telling other employees about another employee’s disciplinary process.
        But in situations where the problem isn’t private… where it’s actively affecting the office, or other individual employees… I struggle with feeling like “protecting privacy of the offender” is a strange goal. There is a very real part of me that feels like… if you don’t want Frank and Ralph and Fergus and Petunia to know you were put on a PIP / informed if you NCNS’d again you’ll be fired / were warned that if management did not see improvement in your personal and office hygiene you’ll be fired… then… maybe don’t do the things that resulted in those admonishments and ultimatums?

        If someone steals my roses from my garden or poisons my trees so they can get a better view or commits identity theft or fraud on me, I will be informed about the progress of the case and updated as to what punishment will be received by the offender. In fact, the whole world will because as long as you are an adult, convictions are almost never a private matter. So why is it this big huge massive deal to keep workplace discipline private? Note: I am NOT saying I think it should be wide open, and I’m sure there are good reasons… but I struggle to think of what those reasons are, honestly. I’m actually not being rhetorical here — I’m being serious. I think it’s an extremely common issue that when someone has been aggrieved in an office conflict, the “victim” (for lack of a better term, altho that description isn’t always accurate) is almost always told they will not or cannot be informed of any steps taken against the offender. No wonder people feel… unsupported / frustrated / unheard / angry.

        1. Boof*

          Yes there’s a lot of room between “publicly shame and tell everyone everyone’s business” and “don’t tell people who are suffering from a coworker’s bad behavior anything but that you are working on it” – like at least a timeline of when you’re going to take the next step if things don’t improve and a overall cutoff of “it will be resolved one way or another by X date” (ie, if there’s a plan to fire them if not resolved)

        2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

          Personally, if my boss was blabbing about other staff’s business to me, I’d be concerned about what she was saying about me to others. At work, unless you’re the CEO, there is some information you’re just not privy to. So I think it speaks well of the LW that she is thinking carefully about what she can share and what she can’t. I agree that the LW could say more than she has been – that the LW is actively working towards a solution, the process is taking longer than would be ideal, but that there will be a resolution. Most people will put two and two together to understand it’s a disciplinary process.

          I’d also point out that there’s a pretty big difference between being crappy at work and committing actual crimes.

      5. WordsMatter*

        I came here to say the exact same thing! Susie’s repeated complaints make a lot more sense when LW’s word choice is presenting this as a solved problem. Alison often advises going back to your manager if a problem they’ve said was addressed keeps recurring, and this is exactly what Susie is doing.

  27. Mesquito*

    If it takes an hour to clean, and if there is mold, it’s not getting cleaned up every day, by anyone. Food isn’t growing mold from the start of the shift until Susie calls, and an hours worth of mess or even 15 minutes worth isn’t pulling up in a single shift. Something here is inaccurate.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      I don’t think the mold thing points to things being inaccurate – I’d guess no one is barging into Sally’s office to give it a deep clean, they’re just trying to keep the lid on the mess once it becomes a more public problem. Sally could be hoarding months of old takeout in her drawers, and while it would be noticeable and horrible it seems like this office is trying to treat Sally as an adult coworker worthy of respect (for the record, I respect them for that). The hour worth of clean up has me puzzled though – messy papers can be piled and trash can be thrown, so is it files/paperwork in insane disarray or is she trailing marinara through the conference room or what??

      1. Mesquito*

        the part that seems inaccurate to me is that “and then someone cleans it and then it gets messy again.” It hasn’t been cleaned this entire time, no wonder Susie is in tears.

      2. Mesquito*

        I guess really the part that seems inaccurate more specifically is “and then Susie cleans up the mess so there is no need for me to go there and clean it up myself/literally keep eyes off Sally until it is cleaned.” The idea that Susie is cleaning it up against orders sounds like an excuse to not go over there and handle it, because…. it’s obviously not getting cleaned.

    2. Antilles*

      I was wondering that too. My working theory is that it’s a mix of these items:
      1. Susie and OP only clean the common areas, so there’s always more science experiments available for Sally to transplant all over the office.
      2. Whenever OP says to “don’t clean and I’ll address it with Sally”, what happens is that Sally doesn’t actually throw the garbage in the trash, but instead secretly sneaks it back to her own office. So that garbage can be right back the next day.
      3. Not all of the hour-cleanup is related to the food, but other things. For example, if she needs a hard-copy document from the box, rather than flipping through the folders normally, she’ll just dump the entire box on the floor, find the grab the folder she needs, then leave the rest as a mess of papers on the floor that someone now needs to actually sort.
      4. She causes all sorts of other messes too. I’ll throw my purse over here, stuff spilled out of my purse, whatever, it’s fine, get it later. It’s raining outside and rather than stopping at the entrance mat to try to clean her shoes off, she’ll just waltz right in leaving mud everywhere. Etc.

      1. Coverage Associate*

        Yes, OP mentions boxes and work items. I know OP says it’s not ordinary office clutter, but I can tell you that both my spouse and I get much more upset about his papers being everywhere than his dishes. The dishes I just wash, fair or not sometimes, but I don’t want to disturb stacks of papers that he has maybe already sorted, and he doesn’t want to move papers that are in the middle of a sorting project.

        And yes, sometimes he can be persuaded to bring everything into his office, but it doesn’t cease to exist once it gets there. It can always come back to the living room.

        If my spouse were a different kind of creative, like with drawings, instead of a writer, he could be described a lot like Sally, except he is self employed and works from home.

  28. FattyMPH*

    If I were you, I would have started going to the messy office unannounced at least once a week after the first or second time Susie called. She’s calling DAILY about this issue? And it hasn’t occurred to you to proactively go check in on the office at the beginning or end of the day? I don’t blame her for anything. I think she’d be justified in stink bombing the HR office.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      If I were Susie, I would be deep in daydreams looking longingly at the seafood counter

      1. Boing*

        Short of burning the office down and rebuilding it (maybe just the fridge), perhaps all she needs are several bottles of bleach.

      2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

        I would be considering spelling out “I QUIT” in cod somewhere in Sally’s office and waiting to see how long before they even noticed and found the source.

  29. Michelle*

    After a couple of months working in the type of mess as described, I would look for another job and put in my notice. If the food containers are moldy, there has to be a smell and there will soon be pests.

  30. Anon and on and on and on and on and on*

    OP likely does not mean it this way, but “oh no worries I’ll be right over to clean it” sounds SO SO SO dismissive of a very real problem in which OP does not have to work every day. And not proactively arriving to clean it when you and Susie KNOW it’s a shit show makes “oh just let me know, nbd, don’t touch it” sound extremely passive aggressive. Even if it’s not, it sure sounds that way.

    You KNOW it’s there. You KNOW it’s going to happen. You KNOW Susie cares far more about the space in which she works and in which the staff greets clients than you or Sally do. This is not a moral judgment. She cares more about her space, you care more about yours. Sally doesn’t sound like she’s in a place to care about anyone’s space. All very human.

    If someone walked in (client, internal person, whatever) and saw the hoarded out science fair Sally is working on, would Susie face any repercussions for the state of the office? Any “I know it’s not your mess but we’re all responsible for shared space” stuff? I sure hope not.

    1. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      The worst part about it is that a client might not be like “you’re losing my business because your office is unbearably gross.” Many people will just quietly find another organization to work with, because nobody wants to be mommy telling a bunch of adults that they need to clean up their room. So Susie and her colleagues might just be losing clients at a higher rate, or getting poor feedback that doesn’t spell out that it’s because the office reeks… and it’s almost inevitable that it will reflect on them on some way, even just subconsciously.

    2. hotg0ss*

      THIS THIS THIS. At this point, LW and other management are the problem, because Sally is still doing this very gross thing. It’s kind of shocking to me that management would let it happen once, let alone so frequently that other employees are in tears.

    3. Judge Judy and Executioner*

      Yes, this. Why on earth is OP not just going over every day to clean? It shouldn’t be a surprise, and Susie shouldn’t have to call daily. OP needs to step up and manage her people. And if HR is making things longer, start documenting for OSHA (Occupational Safety and Health Administration) because these are true health-violating safety issues, not just interpersonal issues. Sometimes you need the OSHA hammer to get things through to people.

    1. Paint N Drip*

      Me too! Doubly so if management said they were on top of it for weeks and months

    2. Alisaurus*

      Same. I’d already be out. Mold, especially regular exposure to it, can make people incredibly sick. I’m still recovering from living in a house we found out had mold in it after being there for over a year.

      1. allathian*

        I’m so sorry that happened to you, and I hope you’ll recover completely.

        My MIL had to retire on disability because she developed debilitating asthma from a moldy building. She was a teacher in a nursing school. A couple times her students had to give her first aid when she had a severe asthma attack while teaching.

        Some 20 years later her asthma’s well under control, but now she can sniff out mold like nobody’s business. Friends and family members will bring her along when they go and look at potential new homes, 15 minutes indoors and she can tell you if there’s mold.

  32. CubeFarmer*

    Seems like LW needs to be more active. Instead of waiting to be told about a mess…go over and take a look.

    I’d also ask Susie why she can’t notify you first. “Why doesn’t this plan work for you?”

  33. Leaf*

    How is it that the Sallies (and Susies, and LW-manager-of-Sallies-and-Susies) of the world have jobs while my talented, accomplished, organized, normal-adult-social-contract-following(!) sister has been interviewing without success for months? (She does read AAM, incidentally.)

    1. Andromeda Carr*

      I so hear you. I nearly wrote the same comment but about my bestie rather than a sister.

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Seriously, I think of the inconsequential things I’ve gotten absolutely skewered for in previous roles and the fact that someone can be a literal Oscar the Grouch and keep their job boggles my mind.

  34. layniek*

    I think saying “it has been addressed” makes Susie think that you believe the issue is resolved, when it’s obviously still not resolved.. I would change what you’re saying to Susie to something more like “I am actively working on addressing this.”

    1. Dust Bunny*

      Seconding this! If the LW is saying it’s been addressed but it’s not improving, her choice of words is making it worse.

    2. Productivity Pigeon*

      Absolutely!

      It’s been going on for ages, it’s been ”addressed” for ages and yet poor Susie still has to live in filth?

  35. Ari*

    Is there any way Susie and/or the other coworkers can work from home or at the other site for at least some of the time you’re going through the disciplinary process? I’d also recommend coming in proactively to their site at least once a week to document the situation and clean things out with Sally. It’s hard to trust your boss saying it’s being handled without them making concrete steps toward at least temporarily alleviating the problem, even if this is being handled on an HR level behind the scenes.

  36. ShanShan*

    OP, you could do so much just by switching to “it’s being addressed.”

    “It’s been addressed” is very much not true. No wonder Susie thinks you aren’t taking action!

    1. MsM*

      I don’t know. I don’t think “it’s being addressed” is that much of an improvement when Susie can’t see how. Having some kind of timeline, or seeing proactive steps from OP, or just having the option to not have to work in a landfill until the problem is resolved would help a lot more.

      1. Kevin Sours*

        It’s not. “It’s being addressed” is the standard response from management when they have no intention of doing anything.

        1. ShanShan*

          I mean, it wasn’t my *whole* plan for a solution. It was just Step One, which would be to avoid outright lying. Seems like a pretty key place to start.

      2. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

        Repeatedly saying “it’s been addressed” when it clearly hasn’t is borderline gaslighting.

        “It’s being addressed” may not be THAT much better, but at least it isn’t provably incorrect.

  37. Mark This Confidential And Leave It Laying Around*

    I’m wondering if anyone has flat-out said to Sally “You are a disgusting slob and I hate working with you.” Granted, not a super professional thing to say! But if there’s any chance Sally thinks her crap is cute or excusable or a quirk someone needs to say it.

    1. MsM*

      I don’t think that’s going to help anything. If Sally’s not aware this is not endearing her to her workmates, then either she needs professional help or she just doesn’t care. And giving her a reason to complain to HR that people are being mean to her is just going to complicate the disciplinary/termination process.

    2. Zona the Great*

      I wouldn’t do this but I sure as heck would loudly and firmly demand she pick up The Thing she just set down in a communal space. She sets down her cereal bowl on the counter, you immediately tell her to pick it up. She sets down her bags in the hall, demand she pick it up. Do it with every thing and every single time. Like you would have to do to a child.

    3. Starbuck*

      As satisfying as it might feel in the moment, it’s not going to help anything. Your most likely reactions to that are defensive outburst, or total meltdown. Not, like, a sudden flurry of cleaning.

    4. Artemesia*

      The LW needs to have made is crystal clear than been in that office daily until it changes. It is not tolerable that her OWN office is a pigsty — but then spreading it to the rest of the office is a bright line that should be easily documented and acted on.

  38. Pescadero*

    “How do I convince Susie that I am addressing the issue?”

    By actually addressing the issue. Up to this point – you haven’t.

  39. WorkerDrone*

    OP, I’m not sure what industry you’re in of course, but is it truly the case that you can literally drop whatever it is you’re doing immediately, drive the 15 minutes to Susie’s location, spend an hour cleaning up after Sally, and drive the 15 minutes back? That’s an hour and a half interruption in your workday, almost every day it sounds like, not counting however much time it takes to get your coat on, get to the car, get past small talk and start cleaning, etc.

    I guess I am a little dubious it is as easy as you make it sound – Susie should just give you a call and you’ll be there in 15 minutes to address it immediately regardless of what’s going on in your workday. Don’t you ever have blocks of time you couldn’t get there? Meetings? Days off? What is Susie supposed to do if you’re unreachable and she has a client coming, and Sally has left a mess?

    1. ShanShan*

      Honestly, even putting the ones on Susie to report Sally’s messes is out of line. She is by definition not going to do her job as well if she’s taking on a second, unpaid job as the Sally mess police.

      2. Lexi Vipond*

        If her boss’s instruction is to report the mess, reporting the mess *is* her job. And I don’t see anything to suggest that she’s not being paid for the time it takes to make the phone call?

    2. So they all cheap-ass rolled over and one fell out*

      I noted that LW wrote “could be there in 15 minutes,” not “will be there in 15 minutes.” So 15 minutes is best case.

  40. LinesInTheSand*

    If Susie and Sally work in an office space that regularly gets clients, Susie could well be terrified of her own performance taking a hit. Are there extenuating circumstances? Sure. Are you going to remember that during performance review season? Maybe.

    At the very least, have Susie take photos of what she’s cleaning up and send them to OP.

    And above all, do not underestimate the psychological cost of not being in control of your own space, or of having to work in someone else’s mess.

    I’m willing to bet that Susie feels like she has no good options here, because right now she doesn’t. She can’t leave the mess because it impacts her work and her psyche and she can’t clean because she’s not allowed. OP, you need to work through that with her.

    1. Jennifer Strange*

      Yep, this was my thought. This is especially true if Susie’s line of work is something where she’d want to maintain these client relationships or a particular image with them, because even if her place of employment now knows that the messes weren’t her fault, the clients might not and it could affect her future career opportunities.

      1. Kevin Sours*

        Not just future opportunities. It’s not clear from the letter but a lot people who work directly with clients have commissions or bonuses that depend on how much business those clients do with them.

    2. DJ*

      Can a partition be put up to his the area from clients. Or Susie be moved to the back of the office combined with giving her a tub to put things in?

  41. Jennifer Strange*

    Based on the description of the mess, it wouldn’t surprise me is Susie literally cannot work until the mess is cleaned, not due to her being particularly precious but because she may literally have no place to actually do her work with all of that trash around. And if she’s hosting a client (someone she and you are relying on for revenue) I can understand feeling like she needs to clean it NOW rather than wait until you’re able to get there (even if it’s just fifteen minutes, that fifteen minutes of just sitting around waiting for it to be done).

  42. Jackie Daytona, Regular Human Bartender*

    It sounds like Susie is at the end of her rope dealing with the filth and possibly worrying about harm to her reputation if clients see these conditions all while probably not feeling heard. It seems to have become intolerable for her. I would be very surprised if she weren’t looking for a new job.

    HR has not put OP in a good position, which unfortunately means OP may lose people on the team.

    1. Grasshopper Relocation LLC*

      I give her a month at most until she gives notice, and it wouldn’t surprise me if she’s already quit.

  43. Scott*

    Maybe I’m misunderstanding something here or reading too much into it but part of the problem from Susie’s perspective may be in the way this is being communicated. While they say, “she has not responded to typical feedback and formal warnings”, how clear is it to Sally that this is something that will affect her future with the company? The writer says that while they the PIP has not even been delivered to Sally but they are telling Susie “this has been addressed”. What Susie and others in the office may be feeling is that if they hear this HAS BEEN addressed rather than it is BEING addressed, perhaps they are feeling that management is not taking it as seriously as they feel it deserves. It’s possible that it can be communicated better without violating Sally’s privacy.

  45. Kevin Sours*

    “How do I convince Susie that I am addressing the issue?”

    To start with don’t tell Susie the issue “has been addressed” when it self evidently hasn’t been. That looks like you are ignoring the issue and it’s reasonable that people won’t trust you when you tell them things that aren’t true. It’s true to say “it’s being addressed” but that’s inadequate.

    We are frequently too solicitous of the privacy of bad actors at the expense of people affected by their actions. Susie deserves to know that this is being treated seriously. Both for her own sake and because she it’s likely looking to solve the problem by removing herself from the environment. OP seems to realize that by dropping hints “hoping she will get the idea that HR has gotten involved”. It’s bizarre to me that OP wants Susie to have that information but somehow just saying it beyond the pale.

    You don’t need to go into details but if you want people to believe you when you say you are taking action they either need to see results or have some information about the plan. You don’t need to go over the exact details but level of seriousness “this has been escalated to HR” and more importantly timeline “we expect to resolve this in a month” are critical for credibility.

  46. TGIF*

    Ugggghhhhh I can’t stand slobs and I would be the one complaining daily. There is no reason to be like that.

  47. Jinni*

    I have so many questions. I can not stand anything out of order or out of place, so I’m really trying to understand how such messes are created in a place other than a kitchen or something. I mean food takes some time to mold.

    But I get Susie because it would drive me bonkers. (Last week I had to get up during a Zoom meeting to close a cabinet across the room that no one on Zoom could see because I couldn’t imagine sitting for an hour with an open cabinet in my periphery.)

    Susie may be more sensitive than most and unable to leave a mess. I’m a little petty, so I’d probably try to relocate myself, you know, like the posters who just take over another space without permission. But sitting in a mess…nope. With clients? Double nope.

    1. Coverage Associate*

      I’m imagining some sort of work with a creative aspect that at least Sally does physically, at least in part. Graphic design, maybe? When all the surfaces in Sally’s office are covered with ideas for projects, Sally makes up a work station somewhere else. And she works late, eating at this improvised work station and thinks “I will take care of the dishes in the morning” but…. You know the rest.

      I can admit to doing similar once in a blue moon when my work was more on paper, but just like in my office and one conference room, not throughout the office, and I was embarrassed.

    2. Ellie*

      Yes, that aspect of it didn’t seem too unusual to me either. I’m pretty chilled out myself, but I’ve got at least 4 family members who are somewhere on the OCD/anxiety/neat freak spectrum, and this would drive them crazy. They would be physically unable to work until it had been taken care of.

      Frankly, if it was me, I’d be sitting there with a eucalyptus pen, in my own work bubble, refusing to clean it up, and gleefully waiting for the day when the rodents came in to escalate. But if it was my step-sister, she would have a full mental breakdown with daily panic attacks long before that happened. So this is a really personal thing.

      I don’t suppose Suzie could work from home or from a different location until this is sorted? I don’t suppose Sally could work from home? There might be no need for a PIP at all.

    3. Nightengale*

      I can’t speak for the mold but I can tell you how messes are created, at least by me

      I pull a book down from a shelf to show someone. Then I put it on a table.
      I move some items out of a space and put them on the first surface I see.
      Someone hands me a bunch of papers and they go on my desk. I have to go through them all later and sign them and hand them to someone else to fax
      Then there are more papers that also go on my desk. At some point they will need to go into a file folder.
      Now I need to check something in another book so it comes off the shelf and then ends up on a table.
      I print out an extra copy of something by mistake and it has HIPPA information on it but I don’t have time to take it up front to the shred bin so I put it in it’s own pile
      Also the printer has been printing off these weird pages of code so I have a pile of those to use as scrap paper so it isn’t a total waste.
      It’s the end of the day and there are 4 books out and several piles of paper but also I have 5 phone calls to return and am hoping to catch the bus that gets me home by 6

      It’s a combination of not seeing messes, not being terribly bothered by mess so long as there are safe paths of travel and poor executive function to put everything back in it’s place immediately after use. And lack of minutes in the day.

  48. Head Sheep Counter*

    LW – if you were my manager I’d cry too. All of the yuck is being left to your employee whilst you are offsite. The old “out of sight out of mind” comes to mind. How many times has the – “it’s not your job to manage your coworker” been trotted out here? And yet… you are asking someone who is clearly bothered and upset to… manage via tattle tales. The solution seems straightforward. Be onsite and manage Sally. Manage her right out the door.

    1. BlueScrubs*

      I agree 100%. This story was presented as a Sally problem, but really it’s a failure to manage problem. OP needs to set clear guidelines (absolutely no mess in common areas, no clutter beyond the boundaries of an individual’s desk, no food overnight) and show up daily for surprise check-ins until it’s fixed. Write-ups every time compliance isn’t met, and termination as soon as possible. (And if daily in-person check-ins feel too cumbersome, then I’m calling your bluff on your assertion that you will be there in 15 minutes.) OP: Stop making this Susie’s problem and manage your staff.

  49. HomerJaySimpson*

    The fact that Susie is having such a strong reaction makes me wonder if there’s another factor at play. Specifically, is there any chance someone else at that work site is getting on her case about the mess? If there’s some manager who isn’t in charge of Sally or Susie, but they keep seeing the mess and yelling at Susie without knowing the context, I could see Susie being pressured into cleaning it up immediately and then being really upset because they’re getting conflicting instructions and yelled at for something that she has no control over.
    Source: this happened to me multiple times when I was in the Navy. One chief says polish your boots, one says wax the deck, both yell when they see you following instructions that aren’t theirs.

    1. Kevin Sours*

      I don’t think it’s a great mystery. Sally is leaving moldy garbage around the office in a way that interferes with Susie’s work. This includes meeting with clients in that environment — there is no way that having moldy garbage around isn’t going to reflect badly on Susie in that context. As far as Susie can tell nothing of significance is being done about this.

    2. Six for the truth over solace in lies*

      Susie is definitely in that situation. If only because part of “your job is to entertain clients” is implicitly “somewhere other than an actual trash heap.” You can’t exactly tell the client who’s stepping over the giant pile of papers on the floor, past the table covered in wrappers and crumbs and the stack of aging Chinese food boxes, “Oh sorry, that’s Sally’s fault, I’m supposed to leave it until my boss gets here. Please come into my office and ignore the stench from the next room and don’t let this affect your perception of me and the company’s services at all!” It’s going to reflect on Susie, the department, and the organization. I imagine her professional reputation is already taking a hit, and when performance reviews come along, there’s really no way to effectively mitigate “this department’s revenue went down by X percent” with “but we blame Sally for that,” right? Her position here is impossible.

      1. Ellie*

        I mean, if it was me I’d leave it out, and let the clients see it, as that’s got to be the fastest way to get this solved. I wouldn’t do a damn thing about it unless someone very high up explicitly told me it was my job to clean up after her (and then I’d be job hunting).

        But I can live with a certain amount of rubbish, so long as it isn’t in my actual home. Other people can’t. If this is mouldy food and other trash, I know people who physically couldn’t let that sit. OP can’t forget they have a duty of care to Suzie as well. Just because she hasn’t disclosed anything, doesn’t mean there isn’t something else in play which is making it harder for her to tolerate this.

        1. Kevin Sours*

          There is a real chance that client blowback is going to tank Suzie’s personal metrics. It’s one thing for OP to say that Suzie doesn’t and shouldn’t clean, but if she isn’t making sure Suzie is insulated from the consequences of that then anything she says is so much air.

  50. Bike Walk Bake Books*

    Can you and Susie swap offices for a while? I recognize you have different duties but this puts you on the scene every day and insulates Susie from Chaos Sally.

    If not that, then plan to work some portion of every day or every other day in that office. Be present.

    Whatever you do, don’t slow walk this PIP. The warnings you gave early on weren’t strong enough. This is “change this and keep it changed or you won’t continue to work here” territory.

    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      Yes. That would show that LW is taking this seriously and that they actually value Susie.

  51. Swiss Army Them*

    While it’s easy to dismiss Susie’s reaction as over-dramatic, here’s my perspective: not everyone has a good relationship with Mess. As someone who was raised by a level 4 hoarder, I would be extremely triggered by having to spend 40 hours a week working around a mess like this, and the longer it went on, the less rational I would be able to be about the situation. Not to project this on Susie, but…Mess can be a really big deal to some people.

    1. Old Bag*

      Similar childhood, and at this point I would actually be contemplating ways to report *OP* to HR — for doing nothing about the mess machine in our workspace. I’m honestly surprised that hasn’t happened already. “And she doesn’t even want me to clean it up and says me cleaning it is making it harder to discipline Sally — HOW?! There *is* no discipline! I don’t understand WHY my manager is okay with allowing Sally to subject us AND CLIENTS to this literal toxic sludge every day, but it’s absolutely not acceptable!”

      1. Swiss Army Them*

        I would, too! And I know that the lack of response or consideration from all sides would wear on my baseline mental health & completely erode my professionalism in that environment. OP’s lucky she’s *just* crying, IMO

  52. Sage is still looking for a job.*

    Sally just needs to be let go, that is disgusting. Or in the meantime, move her next to HR.

  53. Heinous Eli*

    The amount of people here who think that tears are inherently dramatic and an overreaction is alarming to me. Some of us naturally respond to incredibly frustrating situations with tears. I can go months without tearing up out of sadness but put me in what feels like an impossible situation and the tears automatically get summoned. Maybe some people can start and stop their tears like highly-trained theatre actors, but the rest of us really can’t.

    This situation is one with multiple levels of frustration and, from Susie’s perspective, no changes, let alone a resolution. There’s Sally’s seeming indifference to what is an untenable situation for her colleagues, there’s the LW’s dismissive “It has been addressed” in response (by the LW’s own version of the story, nothing has actually been addressed, just dragged along), there’s the order to not resolve the situation herself and instead call on a higher-up to do it. It’s frustration city, and it’s weird to expect someone to not react to it.

    1. Bruce (not that Bruce the other Bruce)*

      Hey, I was managing a project for more than a year with a team of people, one day my boss called us all in and announced that it had been canceled. We were all employed still, there was plenty to do, but I still broke down in tears in front of everyone. Feelings are real. Given how toxic that job was, it was nice that people were respectful about my outburst

    2. GrooveBat*

      I’m one of these people. I cry easily when I’m angry or frustrated. On the other hand, when a big tragedy happens I am a ROCK.

    3. Andromeda Carr*

      In my years-long experience of AAM there’s pretty much nothing people here hate more than women crying at work. For depressing corroboration take a glance at the archives.

  54. Loreli*

    People like Sally do not see the mess, so saying “clean up your space” or “don’t leave such a mess” won’t work.

    If HR insists on a PIP, you need to give Sally an extremely specific list of things to do, with a time frame for each: For example, “As soon as you finish your food, bring the container to the kitchenette and put it in this bin.” ( You might have to have Sally pick up the containers, walk with her to the bin and have her toss it in.). “Every morning hang your coat on THIS hook and put your boots on this mat.” “Put your tote bag HERE, not on your coworker’s floor”.
    Do the same for any work items, tell her where to put them and how often. You probably will need to observe her (follow her around) for a day to correct every instance of unacceptable behavior as it happens.

    Whether you’re willing or able to go to this level is a different question.

    1. Ellie*

      That’s quite easy to do though. We have labs and factories where I work, and its part of our KPIs to keep a clean work area, as it contributes to safety, security and efficiency, and reduces the impact of fire and other disasters. There are standards and guides available online – this shouldn’t be a hard thing to implement.

  55. Dinoweeds*

    This is a massive failing on OP’s part as well as HR. This needed to be addressed directly and clearly a LONG time ago. I agree with Alison and other commenters that a PIP is not the solution here. But here we are – OP, if you want to retain Susie and all your other staff I’d start with changing your schedule to match Sally’s, that way you can stay on top of it in the moment. This driving back and forth and asking your other staff to alert you to the mess is bananas and a terrible waste of everyone’s time. Sally is insubordinate and disrespectful to the utmost degree and it needs to stop, and you need to be there proving to your staff that you are actively taking care of it.

  56. Grizzled*

    So basically, Susie has to hold her boss accountable, by calling her boss daily to remind her to clean up a mess? Very uncomfortable for Susie, no wonder she’s avoiding it!

    1. Productivity Pigeon*

      I hope I’m wrong but given that OP is writing to ask how to deal with her annoyance with SUSIE, I get the feeling OP isn’t exactly being reassuring and supportive when speaking to Susie.

  57. ReallyBadPerson*

    If I had to work in an office space with a hoarder (which Sally clearly is, whether she is officially diagnosed or not), I would be frustrated to tears, too. This isn’t non-compliance, it’s a mental health problem. Sally needs professional help, not a PIP.

  58. that past OP with the non-masking nightmare colleague*

    I’m wondering how Susie feels about being asked to call you each time there’s a mess to pick up. Does it need to be cleaned up asap, to the point where it can’t wait for you to drop everything and drive over? Does Susie know that you *will* drop everything and be over in 15, or is there an impression that you’re too busy or not available? But also… as someone else here pointed out too, do you need to wait for Susie to call you so you can “have proof?” Can you stop by unannounced and get the proof you need?

    I have been in a sort of similar position to Susie before. In 2020, I had a colleague who (on top of consistent unrelated sexual harassment) refused to wear a mask when my office and state required it. He would seek me out so he could yell at me to stop wearing mine. I was trying to avoid him and avoid getting sick so that I could keep working my in-person job (I had no backup) but he’d follow me around the office. HR told me I had to “have proof” that he wasn’t wearing it before they could single him out and tell him to wear one. HR voluntarily worked from home. They wanted me to take photos of him and give constant reports. We had one HR staff and they lived closer to the office (15 min) than I did. I was already so overworked (on my way to burnout) and was not pleased that I was expected to take on all the responsibility of “catching” him, on top of dealing with the harassment. There were so many issues with that colleague that more than half of the things he did never made it to HR. It was just too exhausting and too much.

    That said… is it possible there’s more with Susie and Sally? Or is it possible Susie feels that asking her to call you every time Sally misbehaves with her mess (which sounds like is frequent) is an unfair amount of responsibility for her to hold as someone who doesn’t manage Sally? I can see how it might just be easier to clean it up herself rather than call you, wait, etc. It’s always possible I’m just projecting, who knows. But I don’t think I’d be terribly happy to be Susie either.

    1. Coverage Associate*

      Golly. I share your feelings about having to call to tattle on a co worker. (I know it’s not tattling and is work related, but “left out dirty dishes again” is going to feel more like tattling than anything else I have seen on AAM.) But having to take the photo of someone intent on yelling at you is just ridiculous.

  60. Landry*

    The way to convince Susie that you’re managing Sally and the problem is to ACTUALLY MANAGE THEM.

    Step one is to make Sally clean up her pigsty once and for all. Set aside time to go to that office (for a full day if you have to) and insist on a purge. Help if you want, but do not do this for her. Insist on anything that needs to be thrown away going in the trash. If there’s some trash she insists on keeping, make sure she brings it to her vehicle with explicit instructions it’s not to return. Do a deep clean. If your office has a janitorial service, time this to the day before they come and talk to them beforehand about doing some extra mopping/vacuuming/surface wipe-downs after the fact.

    Step two is to have a serious conversation with Sally that the workspace has to be kept in this condition moving forward. The fact that clients come there is a good opening to explain the importance of a clean and presentable workspace. I also wouldn’t shy away from saying her coworkers have complained multiple times. You don’t need to name names.

    Step three is to actively monitor the situation for several weeks at a minimum. Go to that office every day — different times if you can so Sally doesn’t know when to expect you and therefore do a rushed clean up ahead of time. Work from there a couple times a week if it’s feasible. I don’t think it’s wrong to be explicit that you’re there to monitor the office cleanliness.

    You also have the option of talking to Susie about options to remove her from that situation until she feels confident it’s truly been resolved. Let her work remotely if it’s feasible, at least sometimes. Is there another building she can work out of? Maybe the one you are in? The important thing is that she knows she doesn’t need to be forced into the grossness on a daily basis just to try to do her work.

    You’ve spent a lot of time in bureaucratic BS and snail’s pace communication with HR. Nothing has changed. That’s why Susie is frustrated. You need to take some tangible action that is VISIBLE and has an impact.

  61. toolegittoresign*

    Some people really can’t just leave a mess. Clutter can be distracting and this sounds like it goes beyond clutter. It sounds like it’s obstructive and, in the case of food containers, intrusive due to smells.

    I hope the PIP process urges Sally to use the EAP because this sounds like the sort of thing where really only therapy or neurological treatment is going to help.

  62. Swiftness*

    …okay why can’t the LW just go to the slob’s office every day proactively so that Susie isn’t stuck dealing with this? And/or Susie works out of the LW’s building or another space for the time being??

    I’m gonna be honest, this is a little “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas!” energy here :-/

    1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      I am puzzled too, by this. The offices are 15 minutes apart. I think OP could decide to be at Sally and Suzie’s office every day for a week when it opens in the morning, and stay for at least an hour. This will give OP some idea of what happens, and how Suzie manages her work environment to try to keep it operating professionally in the face of Sally’s behaviour, and how Sally manages her workload and perpetuates the squalor.
      Then give Suzie a paid week’s leave, to decompress a bit and to show you are taking its impact seriously. During the week she is away, OP continues to work from that office every day for several hours, and also arranges deep cleaning of the common areas, public facing areas, etc.
      We haven’t heard Sally’s voice in any of this, we only know her own office is too messy to work in. And there are other staff on that site too, who are unhappy about the situation.
      Well done for writing in, OP – time for you to step up now and actually be at that office every day until the situation is sorted out. And sorting it out will require your presence on site every day until it is sorted. Best wishes to you!

  63. tabloidtainted*

    You convince Susie by taking it off her plate, because that, coupled with your vagueness about how you’re dealing with Sally, might make it seem like you’re doing nothing to Susie. Why should she have to notify you each time? Be active! Get there before she has to worry about another mess! Take this task off her list *properly*.

  64. Boof*

    LW, this isn’t making a whole lot of sense to me – are these messes happening daily, or is Susie just calling daily without their being a new mess? Why does Susie clean it up instead of calling you/documenting it like you’ve asked? Why does HR think you have to have a PIP for “can’t stop trashing the place”? Given how many times we’ve seen HR being flat out wrong… have you gone above HR/shaken any other avenues about how this doesn’t make any sense? How long is the PIP and what happens if there’s no change in 1 week?
    If Sally is making daily messes and making Susie’s work truly miserable I do think you owe it to Susie to give more details, like at least a timeline at which things will be resolved one way or another, even if you don’t give a blow by blow account of everything you are trying with Sally.

  66. I Have RBF*

    IMO, you have two problems: Sally the slob and Suzie the drama queen. Neither are taking your instruction – Sally for leaving a mess when she’s been told not to, and Suzie for cleaning it up then “calling (you) in tears” You can’t fix the Sally problem when the Suzie problem interferes.

    Following instructions seems to be a basic requirement for any job, and neither are doing it.

    For Suzie, put your directions re Sally’s messes in writing: don’t clean it, call you immediately, but don’t clean it.

    For Sally, the same thing: Tell her what sort of thing counts as mess, and what she needs to do about it every day.

    But you can’t tell Sally what her messes are and how to deal with them if Suzie keeps making them disappear!!

    1. Peanut Hamper*

      Suzie is definitely not the problem here. Sally has moldy items in her office, which is so crammed with rubbish she can’t use it, and then she makes messses in common areas that other workers have to deal with and clients (clients! jumping Jesus on a pogo stick, that should motivate someone to deal with this but apparently hasn’t yet! WTAF?), and she creates messes that OP needs to drive over and clean up, some of which take an hour to clean up.

      Nope, I’m definitely Team Suzie here. Sally is a problem, and management has not addressed that problem in a way that shows it’s being dealt with.

      Suzie also has a job to do. Let’s not blame the victims here. OP knows this is a problem regardless of whether Suzie cleans them up or not. OP needs to get a handle on this.

      1. Guinea pig squeaking*

        Suzie stopped being a victim and started being a problem child when she chose to do what she had been told not to do.

        I’m definitely team “OP needs to prioritise this and work from the same office as Sally until it’s fixed and stays fixed or Sally’s gone”, but Suzie is part of the problem.

        1. Jennifer Strange*

          Asking someone to sit in a pigsty to work is not a reasonable request. Asking them host clients – people they need to maintain a professional relationship with! – in said pigsty is absolutely not a reasonable request. So no, Susie is not a problem child here.

    2. Laser99*

      I agree Susie is a drama queen…crying over this is a bit much. I’m guessing she also has a martyr complex, which would explain the cleaning.

      1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

        There are other unhappy staff in the office as well as Suzie. So far Suzie has been unable to get her manager to take things seriously, and it is leading to helplessness and tears.
        The person crying is not the problem. So far, the manager has failed to address the problem in a functional manner – but that can change quickly if the manager proactively attends the office every day at opening time and deals with the issues, because Suzie IS continuously advising the manager of the ongoing mess and yet the manager is not in fact going over there and dealing with it.

      2. Jennifer Strange*

        Susie has to entertain clients (possibly with commissions riding on it!) in this space which is continuously made into a pigsty. Susie is not a drama queen for wanting to work in a mold-free environment.

      3. Andromeda Carr*

        Or maybe she cleans because she finds it a non-starter to try to assist clients in the middle of a pigsty, and cries because she is fed up with the situation and is a human being. It’s really notable that people here find crying at work to be a worse sin than leaving a mess in one’s coworkers’ way.

      4. Wilbur*

        She could also be one of the many people with respiratory problems that are exacerbated by repeat exposure to mold. I could see being in tears if I’ve been spending the last few months feeling awful because my manager is mismanaging the situation.

      5. KJC*

        Or she has told her manager no fewer than 50 times that Sally left moldy food and trash out again right before clients were coming. And Susie’s manager has made it Susie’s problem by telling her she has to call the manager to report what is obviously a daily occurrence. And maybe Susie is just fed up that no one seems to listen to her and actually DO SOMETHING to fix it unless she amps up the emotions.

    3. Head Sheep Counter*

      I want to push back on Susie as the drama queen. Yes she’s cleaning when she’s been instructed not to… but… sitting in an active hazard and hosting clients because the manager doesn’t want to be onsite is… wild.

      I do not think its appropriate to manage via tattle tailing and that is what this manager wants to do. Shifting the responsibility to manage an active known hazard to an employee is wildly inappropriate.

      The manager knows. The manager is not doing their job aggressively enough.

    4. Dogmomma*

      if I were Susie and was told not to clean so I could have a clean space to work in, think I’d start meeting clients at the local Starbucks, Panera, whatever so business could get done. Otherwise, the mess continues to grow. She shouldn’t have to work in a filthy environment. She’s cleaning bc now the trash, discarded spoiled food etc is now in the common areas, probably spilling over to others desks and work areas. And nothing’s being done. These other employees have rights too. Somebody needs to call OSHA.

  67. Happy Temp*

    I think it was anglerfish above who said something that I totally agree with: LW, you are fixating on making SUSIE act differently instead of Sally. I don’t know if you’ve just sort of given up on addressing this with Sally because according to you, she ignores you, and so now you’re fixating on the fact that Susie “ignores” you. You are focused WAY on the wrong thing/person! Susie is telling you in no uncertain terms how this is impacting her work (with clients); maybe you’re embarrassed because Susie is more direct with you than you are with Sally. Whatever frustration you’re having you’re starting to take out on Susie–again, wrong person. Alison has often said that managers think “I’ve told Sally clearly X” when managers actually are couching hard boundaries in such soft terms that people like Sally just don’t hear the message at all–that’s a manager problem, not a Sally problem, honestly. And I agree with the many suggestions others have given you–namely, get over to their office and MANAGE the situation, and that means MANAGE SALLY.

  68. Coverage Associate*

    I have a few questions.

    As someone else mentioned, having to call a manager about mess is at least awkward, especially because it’s a call, so Sally might hear. I understand not all offices are tied to email and chat software, but this seems like a time that they would be especially useful.

    Also, OP mentions boxes and work items. I know OP says it’s not typical office clutter, but I wonder how much of the mess is dirty dishes kind and how much is half completed projects. What does this office do? Because it can be a lot harder to clean up projects compared to dishes, both for everyone and for the personality types that tend to have lots of projects spread out at once.

  69. Perfectly Cromulent Name*

    Is Sally a hoarder? I worked with a hoarder and it was a nightmare for the people who had to share space with him. He commandeered several supply closets, would put junk under other people’s desks, and his cube was a crammed up fire hazard. Management did nothing no matter what he did, who complained or what happened as a result of his hoard. He was still there when I left, and he stayed until he retired a few years later. I am sure I would have left that job much sooner if I had to share space with him, but I was in a different building. My friends who were still at that job said they had to hire multiple dumpsters just to get rid of all the stuff he did not take.

  70. Creative But Likes a Good Spreadsheet*

    If LW isn’t able to remedy this extreme mess/filth/hoarding situation with Sally due to HR or more senior leaders being slow to act or simply ineffective, they could anonymously contact either the Health Department or Ministry of Labour/Labor Department and file a complaint. I’m sure getting a visit or call from a government department would light a fire under HR to get this mess cleaned up.

  71. Grossed Out*

    Consider it this way: If Susie were to be writing this letter instead of LW, the answer would be “You don’t just have a Sally problem, you have a LW problem.” Because that is what this is. LW, you need to do your job! Your job as a manager is to *manage* and to *manage the problem* which means you have to be there, every day, until Sally’s problems are dealt with. You need to be responsible! I am shocked that everyone is so willing to let LW off the hook so easily for sitting back and doing nothing. Because that is what they have been doing.

    Regardless of whatever processes they are working on in the background with Sally, as far as Susie is concerned, nothing has been done, nothing has improved, and LW has just fobbed off their responsibilities onto Susie. Of course Susie isn’t relying on LW to show up (supposedly in 15 minutes but we all know that is likely far from true) and clean up Sally’s mess! LW hasn’t shown up in any other meaningful or useful way to Susie before.

    Even IF Susie were to call LW, I don’t think I am reaching very far to guess that LW probably wouldn’t even be any help if they did show up when they say they will. When LW shows up at the other office, do they know where all the cleaning supplies are? Do they know where everything needs to go? Or (and this is certainly *my* experience with offsite managers) do you rely entirely on Susie to tell you what to do and where to go and what should be done? If your showing up to “help” is actually adding more stress to Susies life, of course she isn’t relying on you! Of course she isn’t calling you! You just make her life harder.

    Unless LW can prove to be a reliable manager, you cannot blame Susie for not relying on unreliable management. LW has sat back and not done their job. If they were doing their job, they would be there every day. But they aren’t, instead, they are hoping Susie will tell them when there is a problem. A problem that is daily, ongoing, massively impacts Susie’s ability to work, and is a known daily ongoing occurrence. That has not been addressed in any way. No wonder Susie is crying on a daily basis over this!

    It is NOT Susie’s job to take responsibility for Sally. It is NOT Susie’s job to be reporting on Sally. It is NOT Susie’s job to manage Sally!

    LW, shame on you. Show up for your employees….BY ACTUALLY SHOWING UP! Do your job and MANAGE SALLY. Stop fobbing off YOUR JOB onto Susie. If YOUR JOB is to clean up the mess Sally leaves, then you need to be there, EVERY DAY, to DO YOUR JOB and clean up the DAILY, ONGOING, CONTINUING PROBLEM of Sally’s mess. You have tried to shrug off your responsibilities onto Susie, now you have to buck up, take responsibility, and DO YOUR JOB.

  72. A-Cat*

    I would interpret “It has been handled” to be basically synonymous to “it has been resolved.”

    Given that, no wonder Susie continues to be frustrated, as it very clearly has *not* been handled/resolved.

    changing the language just a little bit, to “It is being handled” or “we’re in process on handling this” could do a lot to alleviate her frustration

    1. I Have RBF*

      Yeah, I agree. It has NOT been “handled”. It is barely into the first phases of “being handled”.

      The LW needs to tell Suzie, “It is being handled, but I need you to not just clean it up without giving me a chance to see it.”

      If Suzie keeps cleaning it up without some way to document the mess, the LW can’t say “Sally, this is what I meant. Do not do X, Y, or Z.”

  73. Wellie*

    “ Instead, you’re better off making your expectations clear, laying out the consequences if they’re not met, and then sticking to that.”

    So, write a PIP, then?

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No — you don’t need to go through all the hoops of a PIP and the amount of time a PIP usually gives the person to improve. It can just be a conversation, clear warning that you document, and then fired if it continues. You don’t need to lay out all the pieces involved with a PIP — it can just be “this cannot continue, this is your final warning, if it keeps happening we will let you go.”

  74. Heather*

    When are we going to grow a backbone and tell people that certain behaviors are absolutely not allowed in the workplace?
    As a manager, it’s the letter responsibility to nip this at the very beginning of the problem and not let it grow into a month long issue.
    I’m not talking about being cruel, I’m talking about being firm.

    1. Green T*

      Yes! What on earth has made OP think she cannot come in, tell Sally today she must clean her office, and supervise her doing it? And if she refuses tell her that there will be consequences up to and including loss of job? What weird alternative universe is this company in?

  75. Sara*

    I agree with Alison, is there something missing here? Susie’s reaction seems really strong. Is Sally also behaving horribly on purpose and rubbing it in for Susie? Food containers don’t go moldy in one day, so if Susie is cleaning up every day that issue probably isn’t persistent. Maybe Sally is telling Susie she can do anything she wants, nothing will change, haha, here is another piece of trash for you to clean up!

    1. Lizzie (with the deaf cat)*

      Sally may have 50 food containers quietly mouldering in her unusable office, I dare say there’s a food container backlog as well as a paperwork piles issue!
      I had a job once where my predecessor apparently ate a tin of tuna for lunch at her desk every day and then put the (unwashed) empty tin in her desk drawer, reportedly planning to recycle them one day. The other staff thought this was funny, and had other stories of her behaviour which were worse. And this was working in the mental health field, too.
      Really there could be a never ending of questions to ask at a job interview couldn’t there- “can you give examples of your staff’s approach to personal hygiene, and how management deals with hoarders and screamers?”

      1. Dust Bunny*

        WTAF.

        I ate tuna for lunch the other day and washed the can with soap before putting it in the closed recycling wheelie bin specifically so my coworkers wouldn’t have to smell tuna all afternoon. (Before we had the bin I’d put the can in a zip-loc baggie and put it in my bag to take home.)

        What is wrong with people??

  76. 40 Years in the Hole*

    Why should Sally clean up her mess?Susie and LW are on it, and she knows it. She’ll just continue to blissfully function in her little moldyverse. Wouldn’t be surprised if she grew up not having to clean her space/contribute to family or maybe college dorm upkeep. Hate to think what her living situation is like (note: don’t accept any dinners at her place…).

  77. Tata*

    “Cleaning” should ONLY involve opening pig-pen’s office and chucking the flotsam and person inside. Close door.

  78. Bazzathedog11*

    Susie is not the problem, this mess has been happening for quite a while and she was cleaning it up for Sally. Now she’s fed up and annoyed, as Sally can’t see it or doesn’t believe it’s a problem – if you’re using your office and other space, making and creating messes there is a problem. Sally needs to be made aware of the optics in relation to clients coming in. If she can’t get onboard, time to fire her. Fancy getting fired over that!

  79. Nancy*

    You aren’t handling it and Susie’s reaction is not excessive. She should not have to call you whenever there is a mess and she should not be expected to work in a disgusting office whole she waits for someone to actually do something about it. If I were here I’d be complaining to HR and then looking for another job.

  80. Crencestre*

    Since Susie isn’t seeing any improvement on the part of Sally, she’s not likely to believe you when you say that you’re handling it. The moldy food is still lying around attracting insects and rodents, the place is still so messy that it takes an hour to clean it up (WTH?!) and Sally is still turning Susie’s workplace into a health hazard. At this point, Susie probably thinks that she needs to light a fire under you and that the only way that Sally’s behavior will stop is for Susie to nag you into realizing that it’s still going on and that it’s still a problem for Susie!

    BTW, when one employee is clearly upset by a situation like this, chances are overwhelming that a lot of other employees feel the same way but are afraid to speak up about it. LW, your own credibility and reputation are on the line here; if you want your staff to respect and trust you to keep your word, you need to slam down the lid on Sally’s behavior. (Why ARE you keeping her on, anyway? What does she do that’s extraordinary that no one else can be hired to do her job AND not turn the entire office into a garbage dump?

  81. Raida*

    Firstly, go to that office every morning and clean up.

    Then:
    “Susie. I am giving you a clear, direct instruction. Do NOT clean up Sally’s mess. Call me. Yes I know it’s faster if you do it. I will respond. I will turn up. I cannot discuss with you performance managing other staff, do you understand? You hate cleaning up her mess. And I have explicitly instructed you to not do it. So. Stop. Doing. It.
    I need to have maximum, unequivocable, evidence of the issue and you cleaning then *saying* there was a problem but it’s gone now does. not. help.
    It is my job to clean this up, I have assigned time to do it every day, and I have told you it isn’t your job.
    Once again, I cannot discuss performance management of other staff, do you understand?”

    And separately – you should have fired Sally already. But if HR *needs* you to use PIPs to do all firing, then you need to have every infraction recorded from the start so you can show *very quickly* she isn’t improving enough and there’s no need to reach the end of the PIP period to proceed with firing.

    And IN THE FUTURE you need to deal with this sh*t faster: Hey Baz, do not leave food containers around. Hey Baz, this is the third time I’ve had to tell you, I’m going to put it in writing and cc in HR for reference. Hey Baz, this meeting is to formally address the failure to maintain a reasonably clean and hygienic environment.

  82. Tg33*

    It sounds like Sally needs to get her office clean and hygenic to everyone else’s standards and then work from her office. If she keeps working from common areas then the problem is just being pushed down the road.

  83. Cheap ass rolling with it*

    If LW is only 15 minutes away, why not stop by at lunch time and before the office closes every day, and make sure there is no mess or that Sally needs to clean up? Why put the onus on Susie when it’s a known constant problem?

    LW — you’re the manager, and managing from afar hasn’t been effective. It’s “only 15 minutes” away, so it’s very odd that you’re not willing to go in and … manage. (Without someone else consistently having to remind you.)

  84. Cosmerenaut*

    $20 says if Sally was moved closer to HR’s office they’d be a lot quicker and more proactive about dealing with this.

  85. SMH*

    I started a job and learned one employee always left his dishes by the sink, in the sink, always dirty. He washes them when needed but other employees acted like they have to deal it. That’s just Bill for you. I gathered all of his dirty dishes and left them on his desk and chair off and on and suddenly he dealt with his mess.
    I hope Sally gets fired soon.

  86. Mariana Twonch*

    This level of filth would make me vomit. This person isn’t just a slob – this is disorder-level behavior that isn’t fixable with simple reminders to clean up the mess, or even disciplinary action. It requires mental health treatment which is out of your purview.

    LW, it’s inhumane to subject your other reports to this. And you saying “just call me and I’ll come deal with it when I can” is a cop out. You know it’s there. It’s never not there. You should be there every day, visibly on top of it, until it’s resolved one way or another.

    It’s your responsibility as the manager to address this, for the sake of your team. But at this point, the damage is probably already done. Every day you don’t fire the mess-maker is another day closer to losing the rest of your staff.

    1. Dogmomma*

      if I were Susie I’d take pictures of everything, call in sick and tell them I’ll come back when it’s cleaned up. I’d be willing to pay my doc $40 copay to document nobody should be working in this environment as it can seriously affect physical and mental health..and it IS affecting Susie. The rest of the staff is too afraid to back her up.

  87. Librarian*

    I had this situation with a different problem, and I also wasn’t there all the time (I had two places to manage about 20 min apart). The issue was an employee who left everything until the absolute last minute, then it was a crisis requiring everyone else to drop their work to help. They did it, then resented it. I shared with my team that them doing the work left no evidence to the employee that leaving things until the last minute was a problem, because she always got bailed out, then it wasn’t a problem she had to deal with, she just shifted the problem to them. They had to let things crash and let their colleague face the problem. It was tough love, it was a kindness or she was never going to change. Similarly, I managed a place with a small shared kitchen area and some slobs. The cleanest person would spend 15 minutes of her time cleaning up after everyone else then crying about it. I simply declared that at end of shift, anything on the counters, in the sink, or food on anyone’s desk or shared workspace was going in the trash. Anything. Took a bunch of silverware and a few coffee mugs being thrown away to get the point that I meant it, and I did it myself. The rules for the refrigerator were also enforced (dates on items, anything smelly or suspect got one warning to take it away, then it would go in the trash). I don’t have as much ick at tossing moldy food as others, but I simply refused to be their maid.

    1. DramaQ*

      But it sounds like you were there and laid down the law. Then proceeded to enforce it till the message got through.

      The LW is expecting Susie to call every day and then the LW commutes, cleans for an hour, goes back to their office away from the mess and the cycle repeats again the very next day.

      There are no consequences for Sally. She can do whatever she wants because her coworkers hands are tied. Even if Susie is forbidden to clean the LW still shows up to clean for Sally. And this has been going on for HOW LONG?!

      She should have been fired after the first time LW cleaned and it appeared again the next day.

      A good competent manager would do what you did or find a way so Susie and her peers can get their work done without being interrupted by Sally (WFH, move them to the other location, LW moves to Sally’s location). They shouldn’t be expected to sit in it hoping the LW is on her way to clean while worrying about meeting clients.

      I totally get why Susie is in tears and has decided to just clean on her own. The message sent by the LW and HR is that they don’t care about anything other than weird company policy and Sally’s “privacy”. I’m surprised Susie hasn’t walked off the job along with whoever else is having to deal with Sally for more than an hour a day.

  88. Elder Millenial*

    LW needs to have one final conversation with Sally and say “your mess that you leave daily is unacceptable. If it continues, you will be fired”. LW needs to show up at that location every morning, take pictures and send to HR so they understand what is happening. Tell Susie she cannot touch any mess before it is documented, otherwise nothing can happen to change the problem. I have a feeling if you do this, Sally will not be an employee for much longer.

  89. Looper*

    If Susie is calling you daily in tears, then you know this is a daily occurrence. Why do you need to be notified? Make the 15 minute drive every day! If Susie does call you to come clean, how long does it take you to respond? Sure, the drive is 15 minutes, but how long does it take you to even get in your car? You have 100% made this the problem of Sally’s 2 coworkers and how are blaming HR and Susie for wanting a usable workspace. Susie has a right to be frustrated by your hands off approach to this entire situation. How long has this been going on?

  90. Serious silly putty*

    It sounds like Susie is stressed because she is currently helpless; she doesn’t feel she has any agency, which leads to feelings of hopelessness.
    Could you give her some agency?
    Could you propose Susie document the messes in a shared google doc or something, with pictures?
    Or ask her to convert her phone calls to emails, so there is a paper trail? Something that helps her to feel she is contributing to getting the issue resolved.

  91. Alexis Moira Rose*

    OP #1: before your manager moves on, send an email describing your specific accommodations and ask him to send his approval for them to HR in writing and cc you so there is an HR record of the accommodations . HR may want some follow up but since he is supportive he can help you through that process if needed and note the accommodations are reasonable. Then forward any emails or docs to your personal email for safekeeping. If the next boss is less accommodating, it will be much harder for them to say something can’t be reasonably accommodated when it has been already in the past, and greater accountability if you have documentation to support it.
    For example, if you need schedule flexibility to go to doctor appts, the accommodation might be described as “accommodation to request time off for 2 hour appts, four times per month” or “additional time to complete paperwork” or “accommodation to flex hours and work at different times” , being as specific as is reasonable.

  92. L*

    I really feel some type of way about any comment on Susie calling and being frustrated, especially when she was freakin TOLD TO CALL when there is a mess. I bet Susie would be incensed to read this letter and see LW mention how often she calls right after LW details directing her to call.

    There is obviously a disgusting mess every single day, so take some initiative to go over there every day without making Susie call or arrange an office swap or something.

  93. LL*

    If Susie calls daily, I’m assuming this is being cleaned up daily, so I don’t get how there’s mold in the food containers.

  94. KJC*

    This situation is weird. If I were Susie, I would feel extremely uncomfortable calling my boss to tattle on my coworker daily, when I have already told the boss repeatedly that this is an issue. I agree with other comments that the OP should be showing up to spot check regularly and documenting it then, not putting that weight on Susie. Meanwhile, the clients are on the way. Not to mention, how is Susie going to feel when said boss shows up to do the clean up, and it becomes obvious to Sally that Susie called her to tattle yet again. This is putting Susie in an unfair position. I would not take much comfort in being told a situation “has been handled” that remains untenable. I would feel unheard.

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