the head of the nonprofit I volunteer for doesn’t know what a budget is

by Alison Green on April 2, 2025

A reader writes:

I’ve been doing some remote volunteer grant writing as part of a long-term plan to break out of my current job family (also nonprofit-centric). The nonprofit I’m currently working with is only a few years old, in another state, and very small, with no paid staff. My main contact is the executive director, Helena.

The deadline for the biggest grant of the year is tonight. I’ve finished the actual writing and have all the required documents, except the FY25 budget. We can’t submit if any fields are empty. I’ve requested the budget a few times; each time, Helena has responded with FY24’s revenue/expense report. It’s basically that scene in “The Good Place” where Michael repeatedly requests Eleanor’s file and gets cacti in return. Neither of the two volunteer bookkeepers has been very responsive. Q1 ended yesterday.

Last night, I had the following text exchange with Helena:

Me: Have we heard from Natalie about the budget?
Helena: No
Me: Definitely don’t want to stress her (or you!) out, but I want to submit within the next few hours — would the senior bookkeeper know anything?
Helena: They are very slow on returning emails. Do we need the 2025 budget since we’re only in month 3?
Me: Yeah, they require a budget for the current fiscal year. It doesn’t have to be exact since grants, etc are uncertain. Just needs to make logical sense based on last year’s financials
Helena: Do you have last year’s budget I sent you?
Me: I have the revenue/expenses spreadsheet. I think that’s technically different from a budget?
Helena: I don’t think we have a budget for any year then. I thought the revenue/expenses was the budget.
Me: Last year’s application [which was rejected for incompleteness] had one — basically our expectation for how much we’ll bring in vs allocate to different line items. The revenue/expenses is for what’s already happened.
Helena: Then I think Devon who did the grant came up with it.
Me: Hm. I don’t feel at all qualified to do that.
Helena: Then we’ll have to wait on Natalie.

Email from Helena an hour later: “See attachment for 2024 budget.” (It was a cactus the revenue/expense report.)

My final reply: “Hi Helena, I believe I already have this — just waiting on the projected budget for 2025 (rough estimate is fine). Thanks!”

I’ve left it there for now. But holy shit, Alison. That exchange seemed so beyond the realm of possibility that I started to think I must not know what a budget is. I even texted my uncle, an accounting professor, for a sanity check. I think Helena is hoping I’ll cave and throw together a budget like Devon did last year, but I have to draw the line somewhere.

I’ve invested considerable time and energy in this grant, enduring other displays of incompetence that could justify their own letters. It would be one thing to be rejected on the merits; that’s an unavoidable part of this work. I just can’t believe it might all come to nothing for such an inane, preventable reason.

I’m definitely not expecting an answer before the deadline, but I’d appreciate knowing how you would have handled this. Should I wash my hands of this unless/until I get a real budget? If so, should I explicitly tell Helena that the ball is 100% in her court? Should I make one last overture to ask if I should submit the “budget” she sent, be told “yes”, and watch her FAAFO? Some other option? Whatever I choose, how should I deal with the fallout?

So, the deal with tiny new nonprofits with no paid staff (and sometimes tiny nonprofits with staff, too, but it’s especially likely when they have none) is that they are very, very often learning as they go, and things may be in chaos.

Nonprofits are often founded by someone who’s really passionate about the work they’ve set out to do (like helping a vulnerable population, changing an unjust law, or whatever it is) but who don’t currently have the skills to build and run an effective organization. Typically one of two things happens:

1. They build those skills along the way, figuring it out as they go, often with some bumpy early years, but in the end successfully professionalizing their operations.

Or…

2. They don’t build those skills and things stay in chaos, meaning their impact remains very limited and they have trouble keeping staff and volunteers. (And in fact, the worst version of this is when they’re good at attracting funding but bad at the rest of it, because then those resources get squandered and more people are affected.)

Organizations in the first category can be great to volunteer with in their early stages, because there’s room for you to have a significant impact (which translates into accomplishments for your resume if you’re using the work to try to move into a new field). But organizations in the second category are pretty much always going to be an exercise in frustration and not a good use of your time or energy.

I don’t know which one you’re dealing with, but it’s possible that it’s the first one, and that Helena just needs help moving the organization in that direction. If you keep observing, you’ll know soon enough if that’s the case or not.

Either way, though, it sounds like you’re dancing around the budget issue too much. You need to just come out and say, “Most grant-giving foundations will not consider applications without a budget for the current fiscal year. We cannot apply without having that. Once we have a current year budget, we can use it for multiple applications, but it’s a prerequisite to be seriously considered for funding and it doesn’t make sense to submit applications until there’s one I can include.” Feel free to add, “That is not something I can create myself; it would need to come from the organization’s leadership.” You could also attach a few very basic samples from other small organizations as templates so that it’s clear what you’re talking about.

If we could go back in time, I’d say that ideally you would have laid that out earlier on so they weren’t scrambling at the last minute … but it’s also completely understandable that you figured a budget would already exist.

That said … if it were just this confusion over a budget, I’d be more inclined to think, “Okay, they’re at the very start of learning about all this, let’s see how they do once the requirements are spelled out.” But you mentioned other displays of incompetence that could justify their own letters, so it’s worth questioning whether this organization is the right one for you to invest time and energy into. Volunteer grant writing can be a great way to get the experience to move in that direction professionally, but you’ll need successes from the work to point to. If your efforts are all for naught because Helena is a disaster, it’s not going to be a good use of your time.

One thing to look at in particular: aside from the budget situation, what results is this organization getting? Is Helena actually good at the core of the work she’s set out to do, and can the organization point to concrete results it’s achieved? If so, and if Helena is open to getting some basic support as the org professionalizes, I’d be more inclined to give that support a chance to pay off.

But otherwise, I’d think hard about whether this is the right situation to give you grant-writing experience. If you conclude that it’s not, don’t view it as “it all coming to nothing.” View it as learning a very useful lesson about things to screen an organization on before you invest time helping them!

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{ 224 comments }

{ 224 comments… read them below }

  1. callMusk!*

    i’d suggest not applying for the grant. if only because a charity that doesn’t know how to do a budget REALLY should not be trusted with grant money.

    2. iglwif*

      I mean, if the application comes in without a budget, the org is definitely not going to get the grant.

      If by some oversight they did get it, it’s likely they would then also fail to adequately report on how they spent the money, and would not get the grant a second time.

    3. CommanderBanana*

      Yeah, please, on behalf of me and everyone else who donates time and money to nonprofit organizations.

    5. Jana Busby*

      I really wanted to comment as a Grant Writer for 8 years, 3 of which were volunteer. My advice is to take your expertise to a well-run organization. One of the first things I learned in my volunteer years was to call the funder(s) first to see if the grant was a good fit for your organization. Also, I would advise to research any non-profit before you volunteer. So I eventually met with a Grant Writer to ask to volunteer on a grant that would definitely get funded so I could put it on my resume.

      I have been in your shoes. Budgets are simple. I am surprised there was no actual budget, for example that included the CEO’s salary. Not okay especially since this happened the year before.

      1. LW*

        LW here- No one at this org is paid, including the ED. I’m sure they would have learned what a budget is pretty early on (but perhaps the hard way) if they had to worry about salaries.

        I submitted a much longer update but it’s trapped in moderation. But tl;dr Helena came through and the grant was submitted!

        1. Heidi*

          Congratulations on getting the grant in! When grant deadlines roll around, I often think of Marty McFly in Back to the Future III, who says, “Why do we have to cut these things so damn close?”

          1. Sashaa*

            I think that’s almost the law with grant applications isn’t it? Certainly every application I’ve been involved in has ended up being submitted within 24 hrs of the closing date, regardless of when we started writing it.

        2. Who Gets Grace?*

          I am glad you succeeded.

          I am a member of a non-profit org that is still learning. I am appreciative of Allison’s response because some of the comments were…something else.

        4. Jana Busby*

          Can you update us when you know the outcome and what you are doing in your volunteering?

    6. Sloanicota*

      There is an evaluation for “grant readiness” and OP can look into lots of learning on that (I’ve seen webinars etc). It’s a process of helping you, the grant writer, as well as the organization itself determine if they’re ready to write *and manage* grants. It’s a waste of time if you won’t be competitive. Some of those check lists probably do have “do you have a current fiscal year budget approved” and things like are you correctly registered with the state, do you have an audit, etc. etc. The problem is that in general an organization isn’t going to listen to you if you say they’re not ready.

      1. mw*

        What Sloanicota said!

        As a nonprofit development director, I would add:
        If the organization isn’t grant ready to provide these very basic materials, the organization will not be good stewards of funds they receive and will be unlikely to receive funding, so it ends up being an exercise in futility for all involved. Additionally, showing up *repeatedly* in the grant making process without meeting basic requirements is not going to make the organization look good.

    8. Semiresponsive*

      The reality is that the reporting requirements that come with federal money might be too complex for an organization that can’t prepare a budget to handle. When you’re new to grants, it’s not easy to navigate even *with* budget experience.

  2. Frances*

    Don’t know how these people got far in the non profit world. A budget is an estimate/ projection on what is going to be for the year. This should have been done months ago.

    1. Antilles*

      It’s especially baffling with the statement of “do we need it since we’re only in Month 3”. Almost as though she expects the 2025 budget isn’t due for months, rather than being a planning item you prepare ahead of time.

      1. darlingpants*

        It sounds like she doesn’t understand the difference between a budget (a forward looking plan) and a revenue/expense report (a backwards looking record). Of course the revenue/expense report for 2025 aren’t done yet, it’s only Q1!

        1. Paint N Drip*

          Totally agree with this assessment! Many people confused by the concept of a budget because it is theoretical.. but it’s based on factors and figures you DO know, and no one is going to kill ya if the budget doesn’t match the EOY reports. I fear Helena is not going to find much grant money until she can unwind those elements in her mind.

          1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

            Our CFO always says “the budget has been approved by the board…the budget is now wrong.” Even at a well-run, established organization, it’s always a bit of a wild-ass guess. But you still need to submit something.

            I’m glad you hit your deadline, OP. But this is no way to work!

          2. MigraineMonth*

            I wonder if this is because, in personal budgeting, you often do use last month’s/year’s expenses as a starting point for your budget. (How much am I going to spend on rent/groceries/car/etc this month? Probably similar to last month, unless there are planned upcoming expenses, and then plan to save if possible for unplanned future expenses).

            Helena may have thought they could just change the dates and submitted the 2024 expenses as the planned 2025 expenses. Unfortunately, this isn’t a good argument for receiving the grant. “We’re going to do exactly what we did last year, but with money from you” isn’t terribly persuasive.

      2. Peanut Hamper*

        Yep, I think this is it. One of these is a document that looks forward (the budget) and the other is a document that looks backward (did we meet that budget?).

        I used to work in a bank for a short period of time and it’s amazing how many people don’t understand how these things work. Helena is not an isolated example, to be sure!

    2. some dude*

      They have no paid staff, and I’m assuming very little overhead (no rent, etc.). It is possible a lot of their work is done by volunteers and thus is pro-bono and doesn’t cost money, so their budget might be teeny. They are thinking, give us $10,000 so that we can buy $10,000 in groceries to distribute to needy families, or $10,000 in books to give to local schools, or pay a teacher $10,000 to do a training. I used to fund the arts, and their budget would be how much money they got. The space was $3,000, and anything over that would go to paying performers. If they got alot, the performers would get a lot. If they didn’t the performers would get less.

      1. Really?*

        … but they should at least have some idea as to what they hope to raise, who they plan to help and where they are spending their funds!

      2. Sloanicota*

        Haha yes I’ve had my boss say this to me. “Well, our budget depends on how much you’re able to raise!” Sigh.

    5. Lydia*

      It’s not that hard to get far in the nonprofit world or business world, really. And for a lot of start-up nonprofits, it is learning on the fly and figuring it out as you go. And after time, you get better and nothing explodes, and everything keeps on going. I helped found and sit on the board of one of what used to be a network of tiny nonprofits across the country that all had a common goal. That goal was set in 2006. Our organization may be the only one left in existence because we learned, figured things out, and got better. Still 100% volunteer run. Granted, we don’t have lofty goals or a huge budget, but we’re scrappy and we’re able to support causes we believe in.

    6. Tiger Snake*

      And this is exactly why I can function as a team lead, but not a director. Boy, was it an experience when I was able to first glance that next level up and realise how it’s a completely different world.
      Given the size of the non-profit in question; I imagine that Helena’s always been able to operate at the team level rather than as an organisation too.

  3. higheredadminalumna*

    Also, many, many small businesses that never fully incorporate or lapse within a couple of years, operate with the same lack of structure. I’m sure some CPAs can chime in on how clients have wanted taxes done for individuals who don’t have things set up properly and/or don’t track things properly. As a lawyer, I’ve seen my own family members do some both truly shady stuff and also just sometimes they don’t know better. Let’s not act like this is just non-profits!!

    1. CTT*

      Corporate lawyer seconding this. I’ve dealt with so many single-site small businesses that are doing at most what their lender requires of them on the financials side, and even that can be a struggle.

      1. GTG*

        Lawyer turned grants/nonprofit/small biz consultant here, can confirm this happens everywhere. People really just be winging it out there lol. I was also stunned the first few times I encountered this, so I laughed to myself when I saw the title of the post, then cracked up at the opening line seeing it’s from a grant writer. It really can be so rough dealing with people like this! The absurdity of it makes your head spin.

        OP – I could have written this myself so many times over. I can’t count how many times I’ve been asked/told to just “make up” a budget myself, and wondered how these people ever thought they could even apply for a grant without so much as contemplating a budget? Do they know what a grant is? Actually, no, they don’t! (hint: not a gift! lol)

        Alison’s advice is spot on – this is why it’s important to go over these things in the beginning, before starting to work on something; it’s ok to tell them you can’t apply without it, and that you won’t get any grants without a real budget; it’s ok to tell them it’s something the org has to create and approve and provide to you; if you do continue working with this org or similar, you will be most successful if you assume some “client education” is part of the work. I wish you aaaall the luck with them! :D

        PS. The Good Place is my fav show ever so we are twins twice over :)

        1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

          I’m also an ex-lawyer now in nonprofit development, and it is sooooo frustrating when nonprofit leadership believes that their org should get grant funding because the need they meet is so acute, or because their ED’s speech made someone cry at the gala. Like, it doesn’t matter if we don’t submit a complete proposal, people are suffering! This is not how it works, people.

          1. Lydia*

            I’m on the other side as someone who receives grant applications. One of my grants is very small and I’m willing to work with organizations to get things sorted. The other one is larger, and I am less willing to follow up for missing documentation. If you don’t get it all in on time and complete, I have too much to do to chase an org down for what I need.

            1. Ostrich Herder*

              And I have to imagine that, when the grant is for a larger amount of money, the documentation is sort of a litmus test. If an organization isn’t, if you’ll forgive me, *organized* enough to submit a grant application with all the necessary information, are they going to be organized enough to use the funds to their fullest potential?

          2. Strive to Excel*

            Unfortunately the reality of having a massive country-spanning system is that if something isn’t written down it doesn’t exist for purposes of sending money to it.

          3. some dude*

            The need out there is so much greater than the amount of money grantmaking organizations have. The worst part of working in philanthropy is saying “no” to projects that are vital, but just outside of our funding area. Even when I was at an organization giving out $100M a year, there was always far more amazing things we just didn’t have the money to fund.

    3. Strive to Excel*

      CPA, former auditor. I avoid the tech sector like the actual plague because it is stuffed to bursting with Extremely Smart Engineers who couldn’t figure out their own finances if you wrapped a fish with them and smacked them in the face. The amount of times I’ve had to explain to grown-ass adults who make more revenue in a month than I earn in a year that yes, if you want to pass an audit, you should have signed contracts for your leases rather than handshake agreements is more than once and that is worrying. My current business is in the growing out of a small business phase and the boss has eyes on getting into govt contracts. We are so woefully unprepared for govt accounting requirements it’s not even funny. Luckily my current boss has good sense in spades so we don’t have to worry about that yet

      1. Sloanicota*

        Even before the pandemic I was constantly trying to warn my org that we were not ready for a government contract. At all. I could only *hope* we weren’t selected because we would have been in deep crap if that ever happened.

        1. MigraineMonth*

          My coworkers and I had a (quiet) celebration when my company wasn’t selected for a major government contract. There was no way we could have successfully fulfilled it without 100% of the employees burning out.

      2. Engineering Degree Holder*

        I haven’t decided if I am amused or offended because that is not uncommon. LOL

        1. MigraineMonth*

          Intelligence is domain specific.

          Also context specific. I am a pretty competent person most days, but when the electricity goes out I fail at most tasks of daily life.

        2. Strive to Excel*

          I’ve met plenty of extremely lovely engineers who are either very good at finances or acknowledge that they are bad at it. Unfortunately the tech startup field in my area is rife with arrogance. I think it comes with the sort of mindset that decides to create a startup in the first place around here; nerve and skill in spades do not often accompany humility.

          1. Hannah Lee*

            My public school education was not the greatest, and I sometimes think the only way I acquired any knowledge throughout was hanging out with other curious kids, sharing information and egging each other on to learn more, plus listening to music, ready and building my vocabulary and studying for college admittance tests (that those last ones sometimes overlapped, like thank you Paul McCartney for using ‘perambulate’ and ‘proscenium arch’ in song lyrics so I knew what those meant when they showed up on my SATs)

            But then I remember my 3rd grade teacher, who taught us that learning and being intelligent isn’t about what you know, it’s instead all about 3 things
            1) being curious,
            2) being open to the fact that you DON’T know stuff and
            3) having an idea of where you might go to learn about the things you don’t know and find out more about what you DO know
            All from was a lesson about visiting the public library.

            The lovely engineers who are willing to acknowledge that they are bad at finances are so much preferable to the ‘smart’ engineers (or others) who will not

  4. some dude*

    Yes to all Allison has said, and also, if the grant program is highly competitive, you may not get the grant anyways. I work in philanthropy, and our open applications have anywhere from a 50-70% denial rate. Hopefully this isn’t the case for the program you are applying for funding for, but it can be tough.

    Some questions I’d ask myself:
    is what they are doing necessary (e.g., is it addressing an actual need that is not being addressed by other organizations?) Do they know the other players in the space and do they collaborate with them? Do they have a clear plan for success? Are their short-term goals realistic given their structure and resources?

    The big concern I’ve had with small grassroots orgs is that either they are trying to address and issue in a vacuum that 50 local organizations are also working on, or they have a tiny budget and 15 different programs they are trying to stand up. But a lot of times those orgs are led by folks from the impacted community who have insights into solutions that larger organizations don’t have, and they just need some help to right size their approach and beef up their capacity and management.

    1. TCO*

      Yes–so many people dream of starting their own nonprofit without any sense of whether or not a new nonprofit is actually the best way to accomplish their goals. There is often an existing, experienced, better-resourced organization already working on the same thing, or better equipped to expand their work into that area if they had community support and donations.

      Directing time and money to help an existing nonprofit grow is often so much more effective than starting another one. Just administering a nonprofit (the board, financials, legal paperwork, etc.) takes up so much time that it doesn’t always leave a small, volunteer-dependent organization with much time left over to actually accomplish the mission. Larger organizations already have all of that in place and can grow more easily.

      And frankly, a lot of nonprofits are started by people with more passion for the cause than experience in the management tasks they’ll need to do to be successful. OP, you’ll build more skills by working with and being mentored by people who actually know how to run a nonprofit. Right now, it sounds like your supervisor doesn’t have enough experience to give you useful feedback or set up structures that keep you from just flailing around on your own.

      1. LW*

        LW here – from working on the grant, I know that this org was actually created to fulfill an unmet need in their service area. All of my full-time work experience has been at nonprofits, so I 100% understand what you’re saying – I’ve definitely seen some wasteful duplication of resources in my time. But that’s not applicable in this case.

        1. some dude*

          That is great to hear. Are there any local training programs for nonprofit executives? I know the management center used to offer trainings. We have one in the Bay Area (CompassPoint) and so many of our grantees use their services because they are people with lived experience who want to help their community and don’t have a formal background in management/finance/running an org.

          Again, it is very common for small orgs to not get how to create a budget.

  5. NothingIsLittle*

    I can’t help but wonder who failed Helena that her understanding of a budget is so far off. Did she come from money and just never have to worry about it, or is she the type of person who is constantly scrambling because she’s spending too much and doesn’t have a clue how to fix it (if you know her well enough)? I ask because I think you approach those differently, if you decide you want to take that on.

    Being so rich she doesn’t understand money (I had many friends in college like this) means you have to focus on the budget being a tool that is required to secure funding and (if you want to take it on) maybe providing a brief walkthrough on what elements a budget needs to be attractive for grants.

    Just being bad with money overall probably means helping her find someone else to be in charge of that element, unless you passionately desire to train her on budgets (which does not sound like the case). Or, possibly, if you would be comfortable, having her determine guidelines based on last year’s expenditures that would allow one of the accountants to prepare a budget that she’d rubber stamp.

    1. NothingIsLittle*

      Formatting failure! Please read the emphasis as being on just “if” where the italics start and “required” where the italics end. And again, this is only if the OP desires to take action! I don’t think there’s any moral imperative to do anything further than alert Helena of the problem and possibly flag the issue for the board since you’re unable to apply for grants.

    2. I'm just here for the cats!!*

      to be a fair a personal budget is much different than a budget for a non-profit or a business

      1. iglwif*

        True!

        For example I know of an organization that fundraised to pay off its mortgage because the person in charge at the time treated the org’s budget like his household budget and thus decided the most important thing was to be out of debt … not, say, to have low-interest credit available for when it was needed or to start building a reserve fund. That was not a good decision, and the organization is still dealing with the results.

        Also lots of people are bad at personal budgeting not because they’re so rich they’ve never had to worry about money but because they’re just bad at it, were never taught how to do it, have executive dysfunction … all kinds of reasons.

        1. NothingIsLittle*

          I totally agree! I thought I was addressing that with the “spending too much and doesn’t have a clue how to fix it,” and, “who failed Helena.”

          But I maintain that if they’re just bad at numbers or have executive dysfunction, that’s well beyond most people’s capacity to address as a volunteer grant writer. I have trouble budgeting due to executive dysfunction (I have ADHD), and that’s definitely not something someone who sees me an hour a week is going to fix.

        2. Jackalope*

          I still remember joining a small nonprofit and 2-3 months later being asked to create a budget for one of the teams I was on. I had no clue what an appropriate budget would be, and neither did my teammate. We threw some numbers together that we pulled out of our rears and turned them in. Not that it mattered too much, since our bosses completely ignored everything we gave them (an ongoing issue with that organization but that’s another story). I remember that I was fine with my own personal budget but had no clue what was needed for a whole department.

        3. Branch*

          And I think lots of people manage their household’s money with strategies that are effective for them work but couldn’t be used as the foundation for a grant application. The options aren’t a) rich to the point of frivolity b) bad with money c) problems with executive function or d) can deliver a budget for a non-profit.

          1. iglwif*

            Right, a personal budget is not an organization’s budget and even if you know how to do the first you won’t necessarily be able to do the second (or do it effectively).

            I was specifically trying to address the idea that people only don’t know how to budget when they are too rich to worry about money.

      2. NothingIsLittle*

        Oh yes, absolutely! It’s entirely possible that this is only a business budget problem, but that she doesn’t even understand what does and does not constitute a budget makes me lean towards it being a larger issue. I could be wrong.

      3. amoeba*

        It is! But it still has the same general definition (“money I’m planning/have available to spend on things”), so it should be kind of an easy mental transfer to what it could potentially mean in a business context? Like, at least it should enable them to understand it after the first or second time LW asked for what they needed?

        1. Branch*

          It might have been easy if the LW had been more explicit/specific about what needed to change. But asking the same thing with increasing incredulity wasn’t going to make them get there.

          In other words, I think that the idea that knowing what a non-profit’s budget looks like is obvious or something that should come with life experience is what got the LW in trouble. Recognizing quickly that they needed a template or example would have been a gift.

    3. Grumpy Funder*

      Helena failed Helena. When you start a new NGO there are lots, LOTS of resources available to help figure out what you don’t know, because regardless of whether you got good financial training from your family or school or wherever, you have never run a non-profit before.
      The failure is Helena not LOOKING for resources on what executive directors of non-profits need to know. Or even what start up business owners need!
      And then they had the grant denied for incompleteness last year and she didn’t dig into it. AND got into a back and forth with her grant writer this year and never went “maybe I need to Google “budget resources for non-profits.”
      This is, I say as a funder, a fairly common failing of people starting up whatever venture and, as Allison says, some learn and some don’t.
      But if this isn’t the only indication that Helena isn’t proactive about knowing what the organization needs to do, this organization is going to stay this way.

      There are a lot of systemic barriers to starting up a new non-profit, there are a lot of things it may not be obvious you need to know, but this is 101.

    4. Richard Hershberger*

      I don’t think most people have to deal with a formal budget, with line items and revenue and expenditures all laid out on paper. Honestly, my main exposure to this comes from church, as I belong to a tradition where the membership is the corporate entity that owns the building and pays the staff and the like. This means an annual meeting to discuss and vote on the budget. And if I am being really honest, we mostly are grateful to the accounting types who prepare it, simply hoping that it ends up in the black, or not too far in the red. Except for the little old church ladies who stand up at the meeting and ask why we are spending so much on postage. This does not, however, encourage the rest of us to get more involved in the process.

    5. cncx*

      My first thought was that she was so rich she doesn’t get it (have also worked for people that rich and it is disconcerting)

    1. Antilles*

      I did too and it feels like a very on-point comparison because it doesn’t feel like they’re trying to be obtuse or obnoxious, just that Janet/Helena legitimately doesn’t understand that she’s providing the wrong thing.

    2. Peanut Hamper*

      I’ve never watched that show, but given how many times I’ve been handed a cactus when what I really needed was the TPS report, I think I need to check out the DVDs from the library and watch it.

  7. Moose*

    I think sending Helena an example budget and/or template is the best path forward, since it will help her understand what you need/how it should be formatted. If she still can’t give you a budget and/or volunteering is proving to be more trouble than it’s worth, then it’s time to cut ties.

    1. nnn*

      That’s what I was thinking.

      If they have a budget and Helena just doesn’t know what you’re asking for, showing her an example or template would lead her to “Oh, THAT thingy!” If they don’t have one but have the ability to put one together, that would clarify what they need to put together.

      (For context, I’m but a random internet stranger who doesn’t know the difference between a revenue/expense report and a budget, and I came away from the original letter with no insight into what OP actually needs. But if we’re Monday-morning quarterbacking, I think it would have been useful both for OP to say “No, what I need is something like [example],” and also for Helena to say “Okay, so if this isn’t a budget, what exactly are you looking for? Can you give me an example?”)

        1. Heidi*

          I was just thinking that the OP needs to tell Helena to Google, “How is a budget different from an expense report?”

          What I don’t get is what role Natalie has in all this. If she is in charge of putting together the budget and also the reason they’re missing grant deadlines, why are they just talking about it behind her back and not asking her about it directly?

          1. MsM*

            I mean, it sounds like the problem is that no one actually is in charge of putting together the budget. But since it’s an all-volunteer organization, I assume Natalie is focused on her actual job and there’s only so much they can do to get her to set that aside and address this.

        2. Someone Online*

          But a non-profit budget with an all-volunteer staff that is used for a grant application is going to be miles different than a personal household budget, a small business budget, budgeting for vacation, etc.

      3. Junior Assistant Peon*

        Yes – please do this. Repeating “BUDGET” louder and angrier to someone who obviously doesn’t understand the request is something my grad school advisor would have done.

        1. amoeba*

          She did tell them it means the projection for 2025 though, that’s a least a start, I’d say? I mean, at least it should be very clear that it’s not the 2024 report they keep sending…

        2. LW*

          Just to put this to rest, because I’ve seen a few people assume this is what I was doing – all of these communications were via email/text, and I was very careful to make sure there was no hint of anger/frustration in my tone before sending. I thought the text exchange made that clear (other commenters are saying I was too deferential!), but I was definitely not about to talk down to the person supervising me.

          And yes, it probably would have been better to just call after a certain point. But much of this was during my work hours, and as I mentioned elsewhere, I would never have even considered that she didn’t know what a budget *was*. This is also addressed elsewhere, but I WOULD have felt like I was talking down to her if I explained that very basic part of her job to her. Others have provided great scripts for how to thread that needle, which I will definitely use going forward.

    2. Paint N Drip*

      While I find this totally logical, I don’t think it is reasonable
      OP is a grant writer, and they should know some basic finances but they aren’t the finance person. Bookkeepers organize the numbers, so they have the retroactive figures BUT they aren’t the ones designing the organization’s goals with a forward-looking budget. Helena is the person in charge of the org’s plan of action, Helena needs to generate the budget that aligns with that.

      1. NothingIsLittle*

        I think it could be reasonable for OP to send something (that is not proprietary/protected) that would indicate what, in their experience, most grant organizations are looking for in budget submissions. To be clear, not an example with this organization’s numbers, but moreso, “how much money we expect from these sources in particular, what we expect to spend in these categories, and organized in this way.”

        I’ve never been directly involved with grants, so I may be misunderstanding the process, but I would expect you could create something that communicates what you as a grant writer need in 15-30 minutes if you kept it basic/sourced templates you agreed with from the internet.

        I don’t think this is required for OP. They’ve done their duty to this organization by flagging the issue and if they’re done, that’s fine. But I do think this is a reasonable time investment if they would like to take further action.

      2. blood orange*

        Yes, those two roles do not typically have a hand in creating a budget. Reading one, perhaps, but Helena is responsible for creating the budget if she doesn’t have a separate person responsible for the finance function of the organization. That’s typically distinctly separate from the bookkeeper, although it’s very possible that the senior bookkeeper OP references might have that experience.

    3. xylocopa*

      Yes.

      A person might have valuable nonprofit skills and just not be familiar with budgeting in the professional sense. I wouldn’t be able to easily draw up a budget that would pass muster for a grant application. It would take me a little while to learn (luckily that’s not my job).

      But she needs to learn it quickly–like, yes, give this org a chance, give Helena a template, spend a little bit of time explaining that this is the kind of document that’s required for serious grants, but if it’s not sinking in quickly, this org really might not be worth trying to fix.

    4. GammaGirl1908*

      I agree. Telling her “this isn’t what I need” is fine, but clearly these are the only money-based documents Helena has, she doesn’t really understand these documents she has, and she has no clue how this is different from what LW needs or how to get what LW needs. Like, this is the money paperwork, so, here you go.

      She’s sending all she’s got that has to do with money, and hoping the problem will fix itself (since it did before). She does not know how to go three steps further, and, most likely, is afraid to try to do it and screw it up, precisely because she doesn’t know how to organize / budget / manage the money of a business.

      In LW’s shoes, I would send her a couple of samples and, most importantly, a very basic template she can use. That’s nicer than you need to be — presumably Helena also has access to Google — but it will point her in the right direction.

      1. Allonge*

        Also agreed.

        OP can of course also decide they want nothing to do with an org whose leadership does not know what this issue is about. But as things are, this is the situation and repeatedly saying I need a budget, bud-get, b-u-d-g-e-t will not fix it.

        And sure, Google is a thing. If someone works for ‘my’ nonprofit and seems to understand something essential about our operations which I obviously don’t, I would appreciate some specific guidance (template, sample etc.) instead of repeatedly pointing out the issue. If this was so basic, Helena would already know. She obviously does not. Either help or don’t.

      2. LW*

        I totally get this, and in most circumstances would do something similar to what you’re suggesting. But it never occurred to me that she might not understand what I was asking for. In my mind (at least at the time), “nonprofit ED” + “asking for money” = “some general idea of the financial processes that go into running a nonprofit.”

        She’s so busy managing the on-the-ground stuff, and her emails are usually so off-the-cuff, that I assumed she was replying on the fly and sending me the first financial-looking document that came up when she was adding the attachment. Or (more worryingly) that she somehow didn’t have access to the budget, which is why we were waiting on Natalie. Never in a million years would I have even considered that the budget didn’t exist, let alone that the ED might not know what one was.

        1. LW*

          I guess what I’m trying to say is that her knowing what a budget is was so ingrained in my mind that doing what you were suggesting would have felt passive-aggressive and/or insulting.

          1. GammaGirl1908*

            I hear you. And yes, she SHOULD know how to do this. But there’s a way to tactfully give her some guidance that does not have to be passive-aggressive or insulting.

            Once it became clear that, indeed, she is lacking this knowledge, you could have said something like, “I found a shell with blanks for the information they’ll want. You can just throw some figures in here if it’s easier than trying to find old documents or piece together something from scratch. In fact, would it be helpful if I found a couple of completed sample budgets from similar organizations?”

          2. EventPlannerGal*

            A few things to consider:

            – never underestimate people’s capacity for weird, unexpected blind spots. Including, if not especially, otherwise smart/accomplished/high-performing people. If you find yourself thinking ‘but there’s NO WAY that a person who does X doesn’t know about Y!’, yes way! They might not! I have seen this so often over the most bizarre things.
            – weighing up consequences: you might come across as condescending by sending samples, yes, but if the grant application didn’t get submitted and then she was like ‘oh you wanted THAT? why didn’t you just SHOW me?’ that would come across a lot worse.
            – you can reframe the situation: you are not the condescending Money Person asking if she even knows what a budget it, you are the helpful colleague saving her valuable time by sending across a sample/template.
            – everything is more stressful and looks worse up against a deadline. It’s not your fault this all got drawn out for as long as it did, but it could be that what looks like unforgiveable ignorance when you need the file right now!! by midnight!! or nobody gets any money!! might reveal itself to be a misunderstanding or miscommunication in the light of day.

            1. LW*

              Yeah, I agree. Definitely a lesson learned – I think this exposed one of MY blind spots. No one likes having their own job explained to them, but my job family in particular is a magnet for ‘splainers, man and otherwise. It’s become a real sore spot for me, but I guess at least some of those people have met one or more Helenas and are just covering their bases. Still don’t love it, but I understand now that sometimes people really don’t know!

        2. Moose*

          Small nonprofits can be a bit funky in terms of what experience the ED has + what they have time to do. I work for a nonprofit, although not as an ED, and one of the core services we offer is technical support for smaller nonprofits, including helping them set up timesheets etc.

          To be clear, the people running the smaller nonprofits are smart, hard working people with extensive local knowledge! That’s why we’re helping them! But they lack time, staff, and experience, so sometimes they have weird blind spots – like understanding the difference between a budget and an expense report. Personally I like sending people excel templates because I can phrase it in terms of “oh this is the specific format I need” and not “this is what a budget is,” which helps save face. (And a lot of the time I *do* need it in a specific format, so the template saves me the hassle of reformatting the data later.)

  8. Kittens*

    I’m a nonprofit grant writer, and I’ve worked with some small, young organizations. It’s pretty normal in my experience to pull together a budget as a grant writer for a proposal. Now building the budget for the fiscal year is an actual part of my job. So many grants require specific unique formatting that sometimes you have to make something new (using real data of course). I agree overall with the letter writer and Allison that the org SHOULD have a budget, but also I think they could have figured it out for the proposal. I think the director was trying to say, we are planning for 2025 to look like 2024. Not the height of competence or professionalism, but also… not that abnormal.

    1. Lily Rowan*

      It would definitely be to the LW’s benefit to be able to write a budget. For sure, grant writers are often expected to be able to draft project budgets. If it were me, I would have taken the FY24 actuals and turned them into a FY25 budget with not much changed (assuming I didn’t have any additional information) and sent it back saying, is this what you expect to spend in FY25?

      Just something for the LW to consider as they move forward with grant writing.

      1. TCO*

        Budget development is absolutely an important skill for grantwriters, but I can understand why OP didn’t feel able to write a budget for an organization whose financials she doesn’t seem to know much about. They might be nervous about having their name attached to something that they essentially made up.

        I agree that OP could put the 2024 statement into a draft 2025 budget, incorporating the anticipated grant revenue and expenses, and ask the director to review it. In this case, I’m not sure I’d have much confidence that Helena has the experience she needs to review it properly, but that’s not really OP’s responsibility to fix.

        1. LW*

          It was basically what you said – I had access to their financials because 1) the grant needed them and 2) she kept sending them to me, but I did not feel up to turning them into a budget with confidence. I’m 950 miles away from their on-the-ground operation, which I know doesn’t have to be disqualifying in itself (or remote bookkeepers/accounting jobs wouldn’t exist) but very much felt that way in this case. It’s hard to explain, since I had to learn a decent amount about the organization and their plans to write the grant – but it’s all still pretty abstract for me, and I’d want to be more familiar with the actual work before deciding where/how their funds should be allocated for the year.

          1. ShanShan*

            This is the teacher in me talking, but my biggest recommendation is that next time, you tell them the actual difference between what they are giving you and what a budget would be.

            Like, they obviously don’t know what a budget is. Saying the word “budget” a bunch more times isn’t going to add anything to their understanding. And telling them it’s okay to estimate isn’t helpful if they don’t understand what they’re supposed to be estimating.

            Tell them the specific items and numbers that you need to include but don’t have.

          2. e271828*

            A volunteer grant writer should not be putting together a budget for any organization.

      2. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Agreed. It’s also okay to say “this isn’t in the scope I agreed to for this particular job”, but having the skill itself would be a big asset.

      3. HonorBox*

        I don’t disagree. But I think the expectation that a volunteer grant writer is going to throw together a budget that is going to be viewed seriously by a granting organization is a lot, especially when one would expect that the organization itself would have at least a rudimentary budget in place.

      4. Can't pass again*

        I strongly disagree with this. Budgets are often approved by non-profit boards, usually required in the by-laws. To present an annual budget that was not created and approved by the appropriate forms of governance would to me be the same as falsifying narrative accomplishments as an organization in the grant reporting. While I do agree that project budgeting could fall under the scope of some grant writers, I can’t think of a world in which a grant writer would come up with the annual budget.

    2. Jennifer*

      That’s also what I was thinking. They have their expenditures from 2024, so the exec director must just be assuming that 2025 budget would be similar? I mean, it isn’t accurate but it would explain what she thinks it is. I wonder if she even realizes that increases to expenses would need to be taken into account or is she that lost. Also, why the heck can’t the bookkeeper say something useful? So many problems lol.

      1. Kittens*

        That’s fair. I’ve worked with some pretty scrappy and small organizations. I freelance for a year with an org with an actual finance team, and of course I never had to touch that budget at all. In my current job, our actual, approved-by-the-board budget has way too much detail for a grant app, so I will reformat depending on the grant. Since I also work on the budget, I do have more info/access than a freelance grant writer would. I think people in this comment section are really overestimating the standards in small nonprofits though, and that does not mean that they are mismanaging funds

    4. Carrie as in Caraway*

      I am also a grant writer. I think it’s important to distinguish between the program budget (what the grant would fund) with the organizational budget (all anticipated revenue and expenses). It is very normal and expected for me, as the grant writer, to pull together the program/ grant budget. What I don’t do is make up the organization’s budget, which typically should be approved by the board. OP, if this nonprofit does not have a board of directors and the director is not familiar with the concept of a budget… this is not a grant-ready organization, and you are going to struggle to develop strong proposals, let alone receive awards. I’d direct your volunteer efforts elsewhere.

      1. LW*

        Yeah, they were asking for the organizational budget. In writing the grant, I probably set up enough building blocks for a program budget that I could have put one together.

  9. Slide*

    *screams in professional orchestra employee* @_@

    (to be fair, you don’t know what you don’t know… but yeah wow)

  10. CubeFarmer*

    I work with a lot of NFPs like yours. And yes, sometimes they don’t project a budget, because they have no money to project.

    In those instances I tell the organizations to just give me something based on your prior year’s expenses and income. This is what the ED could do here.

  11. The Devil Wears Talbots*

    I cosign with all the other people who are saying that this lack of fiscal responsibility should not be rewarded with grant money, which it appears the organization is not capable of handling. I am not a business-owner, but I have a very detailed household budget which details all expected income and expenses for the year that I hand-create in Excel. I even categorize which are necessary expenses and which are discretionary! It is not pretty and it is not professional, but it sounds like it is more thorough than what this nonprofit has. Yikes on bikes.

    1. Kittens*

      so overall I agree, but I think for an organization that is so small that it has no paid staff or contractors (no payroll), and potentially may be using donated space (no rent), they may actually be OK to manage a grant without a budget. if they truly only incur program expenses when there is direct funding received, they may still be using the funding responsibly – or at least, just as responsibly as any average midsized org. In addition to all the other reasons mentioned in this thread, they really can’t grow without a budget.

      1. Strive to Excel*

        There’s a difference between “we are small enough that we don’t have expenses” and “we aren’t competent enough to put a budget together” and this sounds like it’s falling squarely in the latter category.

        1. Kittens*

          Fair, I agree this sounds like a wildly frustrating exchange with the ED. I guess in my time in nonprofits, I’ve found that sometimes the professionalism covers up some more iffy practices, and I’ve met founders of small orgs who maybe don’t have all the skills/knowledge yet but are so idealistic that they would never misappropriate grant funds…

  12. CV*

    I wasn’t sure what a business budget should look like, never having been at that level, and it looks there are a LOT of examples online.

    So anyone that really wanted to know what one was, could easily find that information, or at least a good start. For free.

  13. MsM*

    It won’t help for this grant application, but if you want to try and save this org from themselves, I’d consider talking to Helena about looking into finding a fiscal sponsor willing to take them on as a supporting organization. It might be tricky, since fiscal sponsorship’s typically intended as a stopgap for nonprofits that are so new they don’t have 501c3 status yet. But if this one’s not in a place where they can handle regular budgeting (let alone auditing) yet, handing that off to a more established organization – especially if that organization also offers mentorship services – might be the wiser move.

    As for how to handle this situation, I’d have taken Helena’s repeated insistence on using the 2024 budget as permission to just submit those same numbers for the current year, and let the reviewer(s) flag that as strange. But it is a huge problem that we’re already months into the current fiscal year and apparently no one has any idea what the fundraising goals are or what they need to cover. Is the board aware they have fiduciary responsibilities? Is anyone even prepared to track spending on these grants if they get them?

  14. iglwif*

    I want to not believe this but I very much do believe it, because I have 100% met people who definitely needed to know what a budget was and how to do one, but appeared to understand neither of those things.

    I am not confident that I myself could create a budget for a whole organization. (That is just one of the many reasons I am not in charge of a whole organization.) But I do at least know the difference between a budget and a P&L. Given a budget, I do at least know how to manage to it and report how my team is doing in relation to it.

  15. ZSD*

    I hope the LW gives us an update tomorrow, once the application deadline has passed! Did you ever get the budget or something reasonably resembling one?

    1. Hlao-roo*

      The LW did update below in a top-level comment, at 3:12 pm!

      TL;DR is that the LW did get a budget (or close enough) and submitted the grant.

      1. Indigo a la mode*

        I just want to say THANK YOU for providing the time; I crtl+f”d “LW” but sifting through 56 of those is rather a long process.

  16. SB*

    This exchange made me realize that I, too, do not know what a budget is and would hand you a cactus.

    I am not an executive director a non-profit though….

      1. supply closet badger*

        Same! Luckily my job has nothing to do with planning or implementing budgets and financial stuff, haha.

        If you had asked me before today what the definition of ‘budget’ was, I would have said something along the lines of ‘the amount of money you have available to spend on something’. Would never have known that it actually meant a document with that information *and* how you intend to spend it.

        1. supply closet badger*

          Well okay, maybe not *never* … but I fear the LW still would have ended up frustrated with me!

        2. LW*

          That is a correct use of the word “budget,” though – it doesn’t only refer to a formal document! The issue was that a budget is about planning (or ‘the amount of money you have available to spend’) and a revenue/expense report is about spending that’s already happened.

          1. SB*

            AH. Thank you, LW. The “already happened” part was what I needed. I was assuming the revenue was the money you had available to spend.

        3. metadata minion*

          There are two main definitions — a budget can be a projected financial plan for an organization, or it can be the amount of money you have to spend on a project (and in the case of large projects, this might also come with a detailed list of exactly what you’re spending the money on).

    2. Myrin*

      I thought I know what a budget is but reading the letter and, even moreso, the replies, I’m suddenly not sure anymore…

      1. Nightengale*

        I have never been involved with writing a budget for a non-profit but I have been involved pretty closely with a small local non-profit, specifically a disability self advocacy group. I would expect the budget would be itemized planned expenses for the year (or those expenses the grant is expected to cover)

        Something like (all numbers very broad estimates)

        General:
        tent for tabling at outdoor events: $200
        office supplies: $100
        portable wheelchair ramp: (this was an actual expense for the group one year): $150

        Event 1:
        fee for venue: $200
        fliers and programs: $50

        Event 2:
        snacks: $200
        fidget giveaways: $100

        Event 3:
        venue fee: $200
        hotel and transportation for guest speaker: $1000
        honoraria: $200

        leadership course for executive director: %500

        etc

    3. Jana Busby*

      I have an MBA and googled the difference. Google confirmed what I thought I knew which a 2025 budget forecasts revenue and expenses in a different form called a budget. So the budget would include CEO’s salary, finer details of what’s coming in, what’s going out. Very simple and not complicated but undoable at the last minute. Usually budgets are balanced, so revenue coming in should match expenses going out. Therefore funding agency will be able to assess whether the organization is fiscally responsible. CEO here is unlikely to be successful if she/he does not know how to create a current year fiscal budget, even a lot like a detailed personal financial budget. Example, grant requested for $10000 will serve X people in the community based area for Y amount of time.

    4. Ann O'Nemity*

      In a nonprofit, the budget is a forward-looking plan that outlines *expected* income and expenses for the year, while the revenue/expense report (or income statement as we usually called it) shows what *actually* happened financially during a specific time period. Expected vs. actuals.

      The budget helps set goals and guide decisions; the income statement tracks progress and reveals your current financial position. It’s common to use last year’s income statement as the starting point for building the next year’s budget (a method known as incremental budgeting.) By comparing the two, nonprofits can monitor financial health and adjust plans as needed.

      It can be helpful for grant writers to share templates and examples of both when requesting this stuff, even if you just pull them from online resources and best practices.

  17. Arrietty*

    I run a non-profit and I have an EXCELLENT handle on budgeting, aka making a plan for the money I already have.

    What you’re actually talking about is a cash flow forecast, which is a guess of how much money is likely to come in and what we’ll do if it does – and I found/find it incredibly hard to make one of those because I’ve spent so many years budgeting actual money only.

    I sympathise with both the LW and the director in this situation, because it’s like a cat trying to explain something to a snail.

    Being told that it was not only not dishonest but actively encouraged to include hypothetical income that I have no clue whether we’ll get or not was very helpful, but what was even more useful was the rule of thumb that it’s reasonable to estimate a ⅓ success rate for grants, so include that rate of income in the forecast.

    1. Fíriel*

      I wish I could upvote this – writing budgets for theoretical money is so counterintuitive and is very different from what people are thinking of when they say they write their own household budget.

      1. Eldritch Office Worker*

        Absolutely! And it’s not a skill that is inherent – not all EDs have gotten accounting/finance training. It definitely requires putting yourself in a new mindset.

        1. Strive to Excel*

          I’d personally argue that if you are stepping into the role of ED at a very small organization, it is irresponsible to not have a basic understanding of accounting and finance training. I’m not saying you should be an expert. But as ED you are going to be dealing with the organization’s finances. Having a budget is an extremely basic concept. I’m not talking about building out a precise number – if you need precise tax projections or project revenue, that’s what specialists are for. But knowing what a budget is and the basics of how to read it should be basic knowledge.

          1. Eldritch Office Worker*

            I’m not disagreeing, but in practice it’s very common for that not to be the case. You don’t know what you don’t know, and EDs aren’t necessarily prepped for the scope of their responsibilities before they step into the role.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      Similar, but cash flow forecasts are not the same as budgets.

      A budget is a big-picture financial plan. It outlines your expected income and expenses for the year, often broken down by category (like grants, salaries, program costs, etc.). It’s about what you plan to spend and receive, not when the money actually moves.

      A cash flow forecast, on the other hand, is a timing tool. It estimates when cash will come in and go out (usually month by month) so you can anticipate if and when you might run short on available cash. It’s especially helpful for nonprofits with irregular income (like grants or donations that arrive in chunks) and ongoing expenses.

    3. Peter*

      And in cases like this as an accountant I could write several different scenarios for the budget – it can be easier to do if you write a version showing what you expect with what you know is certain, aligned with a version for what you will do if you win this grant, alongside what you will do if you win all the grants you have applied for.
      And listing out what the money you receive will change about the service you offer is basically putting financial numbers behind the grant application.
      In this case I don’t know whether all these options would be submitted with the application – I’ll defer to the experts for the presentation – but for teaching people budgeting this is the long but clear way to do it.

  18. Lazy Cat's Mom*

    I think many states require non-profits to file some kind of report annually on expenditures, etc. Assuming the group is organized to do this, maybe OP can get budget information from the state.

    1. MsM*

      Yeah, but that’s also backward-looking. Also not always detailed in the way that a foundation’s going to be looking for.

    2. Ann O'Nemity*

      I bet this varies a lot by state. Mine only requires sharing the 990 filed with the IRS, not the budget. There are some additional reporting requirements for certain types of gifts, but that’s getting really in the weeds.

  20. BellStell*

    I see your Helena and raise you 2 senior program managers, one in the job for eight months now who came from a development bank job of many years in finance and can neither build a budget or a project work plan or understand how to put the budget into our systems…and the other who has been the 15 year missing stair now as a senior pm who gets his intern to do this stuff cuz he cannot read or build a budget etc either and no I am not kidding.

    So these people are everywhere – it is the Peter Principle. This woman Helene and the two I have to work with are just part of the ‘observe them like you are an anthropologist’ group of coworkers who are not adding value at all.

  21. small NGOs need help*

    Just take last year’s profit/loss that you already have, multiply by federal COLA for 2025, and show the result to director, along with explanation of what you did. Get her OK to use that as the budget (which is probably the budget in her head, even if she doesn’t call it that) and you’re good to go.

  22. JustaTech*

    There is a whole sub-series in the “For Dummies” books on Nonprofits and non-profit management, including *just* budgeting.
    Perhaps Helena would be well served by checking them out of the library?

  23. CL*

    Yes, this lack of organization knowledge and skill is common in small non-profits. That doesn’t mean it’s anywhere close to acceptable. Even the local PTAs I’m involved in have budgets that are approved at the start of the year, reported on to membership on a regular basis, and reconciled at the end of the year.

  24. Recently Promoted Cog*

    LOVE the cactus references!

    I’ve been part of multiple grantwriting teams. I don’t do the budget, its not my job to know the budget. But I know what one looks like! I could probably put together a blank table and get someone who knows the actual item lines to fill it in.

    OP: For future reference for Helena – most of the grants we go for have examples in the grant package OR they often will have a webinar for new applicants that reviews the parts of a grant and what needs to be included to be successful. Even though we’ve been successful in the past, we always attend those meetings — and are often surprised by how few other organizations attend.

  25. Adventures in Grad School*

    Unpopular opinion…

    Maybe I’m misunderstanding (or my view is totally warped by working with students and with small non-profits)…but this seems like an easy fix with a 15 minute zoom call and screen share. Perhaps there are some other logistical hurdles we’re just not aware of. Like Alison mentioned, new non profits often have passionate people with limited training. It can lead to all sorts of @!+-ery. As a contractor and team member, I would expect to hold their hand a lot more. I feel for the author because they did take the time to send examples and the client just…didn’t read them. Hence, a zoom.

    1. Sloanicota*

      Yeah. Half the grants I submit, no matter what I do, it’s like I’m the only one who remembers what’s in them and you get sucked into managing the actual work itself. Doing whatever you have to do to get the grant over the finish line is just the start TBH. How many times have I said to project people “are you sure you don’t want to … look at this workplan? That I wrote? For you?”

  26. LW*

    Hi! I’m the LW. I actually submitted this yesterday (so the grant was due last night) and wasn’t expecting an answer for a good while, if at all. Thanks for the quick turnaround!!

    Helena called/texted me yesterday while I was at work, so I couldn’t respond until about 2 hours before the deadline. I wasn’t sure what to expect and was ready to have to set a boundary, but she just asked me if the budget HAD to be a chart or could just be a couple of sentences. I said I’d never seen one that wasn’t a chart, which is the truth. I very much doubt that a grantor would accept a couple of sentences, but if anyone can weigh in I’d love to know for sure!

    Devon (last year’s grant writer) had come up with a single-column budget for the whole year, not broken down by month. At Helena’s request, I re-sent her that document so she could see the format and put something together, which she did! I honestly don’t know if a whole-year budget is acceptable – last year’s grant was rejected due to a missing document, so we never got to find out if they had an issue with it (again, if anyone more experienced can weigh in I’d appreciate it!). But we had something to present and got everything submitted 15 minutes before the deadline. The grantor confirmed that all documents were “in order” (which I took to mean “they exist,” but maybe the budget format was in fact fine?), so they will be reviewing the application, which is farther than we got last year!

    I admit I was in a pretty bad place Sunday night/yesterday and was not feeling particularly charitable toward Helena. The other displays of incompetence I referenced are indeed alarming, but looked even worse in the context of the ED not knowing what a budget is. I think the organization is very much still in the “bumpy early years” that Alison referenced in option 1, which hopefully means this is all just a product of inexperience rather than impending failure. I really do want them to succeed, which is why I was emotionally affected enough to write to AAM in the first place – I actually broke down crying from frustration on Sunday night because I thought they were going to squander their chance at this grant for the second year in a row.

    I’m 950 miles away from the organization so I haven’t seen their on-the-ground operation, but from writing the grant I 100% believe they’re good at what they do. As for whether they “should” be getting grants at all or would steward the funds well, all I can say is that I believe they would make a genuine effort. As Alison said, I think it’s a case of a very passionate founder (Helena) who is skilled at the “doing” part of the mission, but didn’t familiarize herself with the many administrative obligations that come with a nonprofit before she decided to start one.

    1. HonorBox*

      Thank you for the update, LW!
      I’m glad you got the grant submitted. Fingers crossed for two outcomes:
      1. Positive response for the grant.
      2. Helena to have others around her (closer in proximity) who can provide some positive influence and development in areas like this. If the organization is doing good work and is going to grow, she’s going to need board members and other volunteers who can help her upskill in important areas that are necessary to run a non-profit successfully.

    2. MsM*

      …Okay, now I’m not sure I’m on the same page in terms of what kind of budget you were expecting, because I wouldn’t describe the typical format as a chart, and I’ve never dealt with one broken down by month: it’s either the full grant period, or divided up into yearly chunks. Very occasionally someone will request a cash flow statement, but that’s always for reporting purposes, not projections.

      But no, if the grant application calls for an attached budget, you can’t just give them a written summary. They may want a budget narrative in addition to the financial document, but they won’t take it in lieu of one.

      1. LW*

        And this is why I’m not qualified to write the budget! I don’t know if “chart” was the right word to use, but would it not be some kind of row/column arrangement?

        Either way, I knew enough to say that they were expecting a plan for this year, not last year’s actuals (which were requested separately, so that should have been another clue?). In most circumstances I would agree with everyone saying to tweak last year’s actuals and call it a day, but they’re likely to bring in a lot more money this year (not just from grants) so I don’t think it would have been that helpful.

        1. Venus*

          I would typically think of a budget in a table, and I think of a chart as a graph or diagram, yet a quick search says that chart is “a sheet of information in the form of a table, graph, or diagram” so based on that I think you’re correct.

          1. LW*

            Come to think of it, I probably wouldn’t have used “chart” either if she hadn’t used it first.

            1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

              It can certainly be a spreadsheet; I have a coworker who always refers to spreadsheets as charts even if they don’t contain any. A few sentences (budget narrative) is also sometimes required and can be helpful for explanation, but I’ve only ever seen it as in addition to — not instead of — a spreadsheet type thing.

        2. MsM*

          Yes, I’d probably say spreadsheet, but row/column arrangement is accurate enough. ;)

          For what it’s worth, as long as you’re not in the red, foundations are generally less concerned with the revenue side of things than the expenses. They do often want to know if you have any other asks out or grants already in hand, and they may ask for some kind of narrative explanation of how you plan to keep the project going without being entirely dependent on them forever, but mostly they’re focused on what you’re asking them to cover. So if you’re a small, growing organization, and you have a way more successful year than you told them you expected to, they’re not going to hold that against you as long as you did spend down their money the way you said you would.

        3. OG Grant Writer*

          As a former grant writer with 25 years of experience, it would be to your benefit to learn how to write budgets and read financials if you don’t already know how to do it. Even if it is something you don’t plan on doing. It will help you catch errors they make and/or give you an opportunity to point out things they may be leaving out on the budget that you discussed in the grant. As an example, you said clients will receive 2 bags of food but you don’t see a line item for that actual food on the budget or staff will be driving to locations but you don’t see a line item for mileage. Sometimes the grant writer wears many hats especially when they work with small nonprofits just starting out.

        4. Middle Managing Cog*

          For our grants, the “budget” is not what some of these people are talking about either.
          it’s essentially a table of “how much we’re asking for and how we would spend it.” So we include that the $X from this proposed grant would cover the following people’s salaries and activities for a specified number of hours, including fringe costs on the salaries, and then a rundown of activities. A grant to put on an educational event would include the FTE of personnel plus fringe on that FTE, and then the actual costs of renting the space, travel and transportation, honoraria, food, printing, publicity, etc.
          It’s not our entire organizational budget, its just the projection for how the requested money would get spent.

      2. Grumpy Elder Millennial*

        In this context, I read “chart” as “spreadsheet.” Mostly because it sounded like the other option was just a short paragraph. And also because senior leadership where I work calls all sorts of things “charts” that technically aren’t.

    3. Someone Online*

      It has been well over a decade since I wrote a grant for a non-profit organization but I currently write grants for our state government – we generally do an annual budget and don’t break down by month, but our grants span over several years, rather than a shorter time period.

      I really like the resources at The Community Toolbox, for anyone who wants to dig around on non-profit administrative stuff.

      1. xylocopa*

        Ooh, thanks for the rec for the Community Toolbox. I’m on the minimal staff of a tiny nonprofit and I’m learning a lot as I go. I’ll check it out.

        (Luckily I do NOT have anything to do with budgets and finances!)

    4. Sloanicota*

      As a grantwriter of over a decade, I’d say you handled this as well as possible. I’m at a good org now and I’m still surprised how often people are f@ffing around right up until basically the minute of a deadline – in fact I had a blowout with my (very good, very successful) boss yesterday about how much time it was reasonable to block out for me to get the application into the actual portal, meaning everyone else needs to be hands-off the shared documents. She tried to say about 20 minutes before the deadline was all that should be required – I stood firm on 12 hours so when I say we were not aligned …

      The confirmation of documents does not mean they approved the format of the budget, just that you had all the boxes checked in their system. A written statement would have been VERY out of place so good job on that. A fallback option is usually to include a “draft budget” and last year’s budget with a note that this year’s is provisional or that you can provide an update after board approval. But … It’s not your job to misrepresent how organized this org is so what you submitted is likely the best option – if it has flaws, they are genuine and belong to the org, and it’s not your fault. Grantmakers can decide how hardcore they want to be about professional organizations – USDA is going to have a different standard vs NFWF vs a small family foundation. You actually WANT to find your funder people.

      Since you want to go into grantwriting, this is probably good experience in the need to draw boundaries, including emotional boundaries, around the work. It’s not your fault if they’re funded or not, and it’s not your fault if they can’t get you what is required by a reasonable deadline. Over time, you won’t want to cry, you’ll just accept it and move on to the next one.

      1. Venus*

        Your point lines up with a thought that I had about the budget, which is to open up Spending 2024 and ask Helena how she plans to spend differently this year compared to last year. This might not work with some budgets, but many of them are reasonably repetitive from year to year with small changes.

      2. Bird names*

        I hear you on the mismatched expectations around timelines. I have seen an application fail with such a short timeframe, because there were unexpected last-minute technical issues with the portal. My colleague was devastated, but we only got things working after the cut-off. After that our team was uncompromising about having everything ready a day beforehand.

      3. Red*

        I’m a chronic procrastinator in a field full of them (academia) but 20 mins before the deadline for *sending* them to the person who needs to submit them is unthinkable. That’s genuinely ridiculous.

    6. Sam I Am*

      Glad you got it submitted in the end! It sounds like a good learning experience, but definitely keep an eye on whether grants are actually being won, otherwise you won’t have quantifiable accomplishments to put on your resume.

      PS. Love the Severance references! The budget is indeed mysterious and important.

    7. Strive to Excel*

      I’m going to preface this by saying OP, it sounds like you’re doing an amazing job and I salute you.

      As far as the foundation goes, while their actual work may be solid (which I believe!), I don’t think they have the financial sense God gave geese. I shudder to imagine what their tax forms look like (yes, not for profit, I know, but you have to file forms to have that status). Without someone who can actually pull this information together I do not have high hopes.

    8. LW*

      Ok wow I just realized that today is Wednesday, and the crying/frustration happened on Monday, not Sunday. Glass houses, etc etc.

    9. AnonforThis*

      1. Congrats on getting everything submitted!

      2. I see your “15 minutes before the deadline” and raise you a “no more than 3 minutes before the deadline” which is when my company submitted a multi-year, multi-million dollar, scientific research and development proposal on Monday.

      3. We did not have to give the company’s 2025 budget, though we do have one, but did have to give the *project* budget while handling conflicting requirements like “you must use our template which requires you to break out costs using your fiscal year” and “you must present the costs by government fiscal year” – but our company uses a calendar year for our fiscal year so… (Why, yes, I *am* the person who is responsible for the cost part of the proposals. Would you like to hear the rest of my 30 minute rant about the inadequacies of the spreadsheet template that they require us to use? No?)

      4. There is never a guarantee, but it is possible to ask for further feedback on rejected proposals and you sometimes hear back something useful. In my experience the letter / email that let you know you were not selected also gives the contact person to whom such requests should go. However, it’s too late for last year’s and hopefully you don’t need that info for this year’s proposal.

    10. Kittens*

      Hey, I just wanted to say, it sounds like you did the best you could, and kudos on meeting the deadline. I’m a grant writer and I also have a big role in building/ updating my non profit’s budget. It sounds like you submitted the right thing: Org budgets for grant proposals are basically never required/expected to be broken down by month, and it’s usually just a two column spreadsheet with totals for all your income and expenses. At your org, you could also have a section for In-Kind Support since you rely so heavily on volunteers, and that would be impressive to funders and indicate greater stability.

      I also wanted to say, I think the people in this thread are leaning a little harsh on whether your org “should” get the grant — I think that it’s possible that really great work is being done, and since the org is so small without payroll or high operating costs, they’re scraping by without a projected budget and it doesn’t mean they’d necessarily mismanage the funds. Good luck! I hope you get the grant and I hope the ED catches up on some of the professional admin tasks she needs to learn.

    11. Anonymous Demi ISFJ*

      If it makes you feel any better, LW, I used to work for a tiny nonprofit (which started in the 50s!) which managed to not finish a federal grant application twice in one year because the staff member responsible for the financial section and actual submission “didn’t have the capacity” to do his part and didn’t tell anyone until it was too late for us to jump in to help. Somehow, he still works there…

  27. what even*

    I once spent so much time working on a USDA grant with an ‘executive director’ of a farmers market association. I was maybe 23… She was 40ish. I had all of our ducks in a row, ready to submit. The letters of support, the budget, the supporting documentation, etc. Her responsibility had been to write the narrative. I showed up to the coworking space at 8AM the morning the grant was due, ready to put the finishing touches on it and press submit. She waltzed in around 10AM with none of the narrative written.

    I basically begged her to let me help with it, but she declined. So instead, I sat there (dumb young person decision) while she tootled along for hours accomplishing nothing. At 3pm, I sent a note to my boss who had written one of the letters of support that the grant was unlikely to go through. At 4:55pm, she was entering ‘narrative’ into the required fields on the form. At 5pm, the submission deadline passed, and she had not yet hit submit.

    I left around 5:05pm while she was on the phone with someone at the USDA trying to tell them their form was messed up and that’s why we couldn’t submit the grant.

    A few years later, she submitted another grant application to the USDA with my name listed as a board member, of which I definitely was not. Not interested in being financially responsible for her absolute inability to function, I had to call the USDA myself to ensure I was not being included in the proposal and that, to the best of my knowledge, all the other board members she had listed on the website and in the application were also not on the board of the association.

    Some small non-profits are freaking insane. Cut and run, OP. Cut and run.

    1. MsM*

      I don’t know, I think not insisting on letting you help her throw something together in a matter of hours that takes weeks if not months to put together properly was a very wise decision on your part. (Unless you meant you should’ve just gone home instead of watching the madness play out, which, debatable.)

      1. what even*

        I should have gone home! Honestly, we had already done the work to be able to write the narrative, she had just never put it down on paper. And then… Continued to not put it down on paper.

        Looking back, there were some clear mental health issues, but being young and dumb, I thought she was just busy. It never occurred to me that she would just… not… do the work. And then calling the poor technical assistance people at the USDA like getting an exception/extension on a federal grant deadline was something they could do was just…. Honestly, I am still shocked by the audacity.

    2. TGMC*

      OMG are you me? lol…I left my (strikingly similar) story below. I ended up writing all the narrative though, it was the budget and financials that I literally had no insight nor ability to guess at, and that’s what drug us past the 5pm deadline.

      Fistbump of solidarity!!

    4. Insert Clever Name Here*

      Hahaha, I am in supply chain management and have been on the receiving end of that “there’s a problem with your system, it kicked me out at 3:00” call when the RFP (with multiple question sections that have to be answered in the system) was due at 3:00 and automatically closes at that time.
      Me: yes, it was due at 3:00. When did you start entering your response?
      Them: 2:50

  28. tired designer*

    My god… she sounds EXACTLY like my boss. Also tiny nonprofit she started a couple years ago, with (almost) no staff. Literally the only way I know this isn’t about my boss is because I’m the only staff member, so only I could’ve written it lol.

  30. Sloanicota*

    I want to be real with you … I, a grantwriter, would put together that budget at this point. Just update the 2024 budget with a new year, plus or minus anything anyone has mentioned to you. Sad to say it, but with tiny nonprofits the sky is the limit in terms of dysfunction and if you want to gain traction as a grantwriter, you need to get things submitted.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      When I was reading the part where the ED sent the profit and loss equivalent when asked for the budget, I thought that was what the ED expected, that OP would just remake it as a budget if the only reason the organization needed a written budget was for grant applications.

      I mean, maybe every organization “needs” a written budget, but I can see some very small organizations where it would be pro forma or almost pro forma.

  32. Sigh.*

    If I’ve learned anything from AAM it’s that nonprofits are by and large full of bees.

    (I’m sure there’s good ones out there and we’re just not hearing about them because of the nature of this site! But still,)

    2. Strive to Excel*

      Nah, we just hear about the ones full of bees because they cause more of a buzz.

  33. TGMC*

    GACK – I lived through this as a volunteer for a tiny tiny brand new nonprofit in my community, and I wanted to help them with a FEDERAL grant. I navigated SAM.gov, got their DUNS number, etc etc…and couldn’t get them to, like, provide a budget. For either the org or the grant itself! It was painful.

    Said nonprofit is no longer functional, and while the mission was so worthwhile, it’s probably for the best. Even though they retained possession of several hundred dollars worth of goods I’d consigned, but that’s a separate issue…

  34. Sloanicota*

    In conclusion, OP, it sounds like this was a really great learning experience. You will know a lot better the kinds of questions to ask, and the timeline you’ll need, next time. Small nonprofits are great for learning things the hard way.

  35. Dawn*

    I just want to say that the comparison to the cactus scene was brilliant, I immediately knew exactly what you meant.

  36. OG Grant Writer*

    As a former grant writer with 25 years of experience, it would be to your benefit to learn how to write budgets and read financials if you don’t already know how to do it. Even if it is something you don’t plan on doing. It will help you catch errors they make and/or give you an opportunity to point out things they may be leaving out on the budget that you discussed in the grant. As an example, you said clients will receive 2 bags of food but you don’t see a line item for that actual food on the budget or staff will be driving to locations but you don’t see a line item for mileage. Sometimes the grant writer wears many hats especially when they work with small nonprofits just starting out.

    1. Georgia Carolyn Mason*

      Yes, this for sure. I don’t have as much experience as you, but I have plenty, and the truth is that a lot of times the grant writer/grants manager/etc. winds up working on all parts of the proposal because the deadline is looming and no one else is doing it. You can manage this to some extent by telling people the deadline is before it is (if you don’t think they’re reading the RFP, which most of them are not). In terms of training, I mostly learned on the job but was fortunate to work in functional nonprofits in general, where I could sit with a finance person or program lead to understand their budget. But, there are definitely templates and trainings online.

      1. Coverage Associate*

        At times reading the post, I thought maybe this is what the ED expected OP to do, to turn the profit and loss equivalent for the prior year into the budget for the current year. I see later communications negate that interpretation, but if the organization didn’t have a separate bookkeeper, and depending on how oversight is set up, I can see this being the case at some very small organizations where the budget is just needed for grant applications.

    2. Strive to Excel*

      I second the advice to get some financial experience! Please! BUT. Do not be the only person in the org who knows their financial debits from their credits. Don’t do it unless you want to be the accountant as well as the grant writer. It’s one thing to be capable enough to spot errors, it’s another to be the only capable one in the org. Because then if something goes wrong – guess what, you were the one who knew what everything said, you’re going to get stuck with the responsibility.

  37. law*

    And some tiny, well-meaning nonprofits start out as number 2, try very hard to be number 1, maybe achieve number 1 status for like 30 seconds– but then crash and burn as number 2 because that’s what they were always were all along :-/
    (I’m thinking of a specific non-profit that has had a very spectacular crash and burn over the last like, 24 months and now finally has pulled the plug. And blaming everyone but their own damn selves. And said crash and burn was honestly building up for years).

  38. Dido*

    a non-profit with no budget doesn’t deserve a grant. cut your losses and let the money go to a more competent organization.

  39. Alice*

    I wasn’t clear for your comment if the application was for project funding or for organizational funding, and therefore whether the required budget was for the activities being described in the proposal, or a budget for all operations and other funding sources.

    If it’s a project budget, I would say working with the ED on developing this budget is definitely in scope for a proposal writer. If you’ve been describing particular activities that will be done with the proposed funds, you want to make sure those are clearly captured in the budget. As someone who works primarily on project-based grant proposals I often tell people that the budget IS the project. Whatever is itemized in the budget needs to be justified in the narrative, and anything described in the narrative needs to be able to be tied back to the budget. I would have made budgeting the first step of proposal drafting.

    If the latter — e.g. it’s a $50k/year budget and you’re applying for 5k in general funding — then more of an organizational revenue and expense budget does make sense. In which case, I would have taken that first revenue and expense report the ED sent you (the “cactus”) and worked with her into translating it into a budget for this year. Put the whole thing into a new budget spreadsheet then meet with her to get her to talk you through what she thinks will be different this year. Are there any major donations that came in last year that they know won’t come again this year? Are they setting any specific goals like increasing individual donations by 10%? Are there any expenditures they know will change, like an activity that’s increased in scope or been cut out?

    I actually think the process of working on grant applications can be a great way for small orgs to improve their professionalism — and these are concrete ways a proposal-writing consultant can support that capacity development.

  40. Stephany*

    I’ve been in this exact position and feel your pain. Your important takeaway is to request required attachments (e.g. the org budget, 990, IRS determination) as the first step of the writing process and set a deadline for receipt at least one week prior to the deadline. I’ve worked with small organizations to build a current FY budget projection out of the previous year’s expense/revenue report, but it’s a labor intensive process. It is not something I would take on as a volunteer. Good luck!

  41. Coverage Associate*

    I haven’t read all the comments, but could OP have taken the P&L equivalent and asked the bookkeeper to turn it into a budget? Maybe that would be not how this org works interpersonally in terms of who interacts with the bookkeeper for what, but it sounds like that is most of what needed to happen as a practical matter. Hopefully at least the bookkeeper understands the difference between a P&L and a budget!

  42. Eek*

    I once was the overall admin for a very, very, very small nonprofit that was, among other things, using its accounts payable check stubs as scratch paper.

  43. Raida*

    Honestly… Start being the Subject Matter Expert here and not the “oh if I could just have a moment of your time, if it isn’t a bother, I think, I think, perhaps…”
    You can’t *make* people care, *make* them understand.
    Accept this early on, especially with volunteer work mate.

    You *can* do the best work you can, clearly state outcomes based on parameters, provide clear and concise guidance, and allow people to fail. You will still have done a good job. You do not run this non-profit, you will not be getting professional kudos for tying yourself in knots over other people not knowing – let’s be clear here – What The Bloody Hell They Are Doing.

    The head doesn’t know WHAT A BUDGET IS. And when asked – no doubt clearly by the last person – they clearly palmed it off to them… and never learnt, never put in the work, just drifting forwards. They are not going to be successful, they are not going to get funds to afford to bring on board even part time a CFO to get everything ship shape.

    ****************************
    My version of this:
    Me: Have we heard from Natalie about the budget?
    Helena: No
    Me: The 2025 Budget is required by 6pm for this grant.
    Helena: They are very slow on returning emails. Do we need the 2025 budget since we’re only in month 3?
    Me: Yes.
    Helena: Do you have last year’s budget I sent you?
    Me: I have the revenue/expenses spreadsheet. I do not have any budget for 2024 or 2025.
    Helena: I don’t think we have a budget for any year then. I thought the revenue/expenses was the budget.
    Me: The revenue/expenses is for what’s already happened. The budget is your forecast. Last year’s application did have one.
    Helena: Then I think Devon who did the grant came up with it.
    Me: Well is Devon creating your 2025 Budget or is Natalie?
    Helena: Then we’ll have to wait on Natalie.
    Me: Alrighty, just confirming: If I do not receive a 2025 Budget by 6pm this grant application will not be submitted.
    Email from Helena an hour later: “See attachment for 2024 budget.” (It was a cactus the revenue/expense report.)

    My final reply: Hi Helena, this is not a 2024 Budget, this is the same file you’ve already provided me. Do you have a 2025 Budget?
    ****************************

  44. Anon Fundraising Marketer*

    I worked for a major US nonprofit for four years, and they were definitely in category #2. Without identifying the organization: I was there for their 40th anniversary, and only during my employment did they implement – for the first time – an actual formal written budget. I was shocked to learn that this was a new thing. There’s a reason that the majority of their funding came through individual donors, and not through grants.

    And did they have trouble keeping staff? Oh, you betcha! Most people didn’t make it 3 years, with the exception of a handful of “good ol’ boys” who traded their positions about every 5 years or so.

    The tenured employees tended to be holdovers from the nonprofit’s past life as a faith-based organization, and as a result there was a solid undercurrent of discrimination against anyone who dared to publicly be anything other than Christian. This place had a prayer room (signed as such) full of religious books, and the employee manual even explicitly banned outside-of-work conduct “incompatible with Christian morality”.
    I didn’t realize how bananapants the place was until years after I left.

    I still support their mission, but I have lost most confidence in their ability to execute it effectively.

  45. jess*

    I think you were overly deferential and indirect.
    “Me: I have the revenue/expenses spreadsheet. I think that’s technically different from a budget?”
    When you phrase it that way, then they come back and tell you “no, this is the budget”, then you have undermined yourself and created more confusion and can’t really ask again for the budget.

    Instead you can either take charge (presumably that’s what Devon did last year– estimated a budget based on info from the previous year’s revenue/expenses spreadsheet), or you can directly say “The budget needs to look like this [provide example] and I don’t feel that I have the authority to make such decisions for your organization, so you’ll need to do that to attach to the application. Please provide it by Time/Date so that we can submit the full package.”

    My job is environmental consulting on behalf of Native American tribes, and often when we help them apply for funding, they are small organizations who do want us to take initiative and at least provide them a first draft of such things (budget, scope of work) that they can then review and edit.
    That said, you’re a volunteer, so you can certainly decide you’re taking on less of an active role if you want.

  46. Epsilon*

    I am the treasurer on the board of a non-profit with an extremely charismatic driver person who attracts attention and funds with consummate ease. They are not good at recording where money came from, nor letting the rest of the board know that it has come in and that it is eartagged for a particular project. Doing an end of year financial report is a nightmare! We get money in donations and from grants. We have an amazing volunteer grant applications person, and after a couple of conversations between that person and myself, we decided that our grants application person would just do the projected budgets. We do them on a case by case / grant by grant basis because grants are for very specific projects. We would love to have our money attractor person more involved in setting budgets, processing the money and managing it, but we have both realised that is not going to happen. Our main focus has to be on the organisation goals, rather than training a person to do something they have never had to do, never want to do and can’t see the point of doing!!

  47. Vanny Hall*

    I took a part-time job at a nonprofit that has been in existence *since the 1870s.” In my first week I asked the only other employee, the director (later, belatedly, fired for incompetence) if I had a budget line. He referred me to an elderly volunteer who “handled the finances.”

    The elderly volunteer had been a small business-owner back in the day. He assured me that “if there was money in the till at the end of the day, we were okay,” implying that the same principle applied. Who needs a budget??

    Reader, we needed one.

    A year later, I partnered with a wonderful new director to create *the organization’s first-ever budget.* The exercise made it very clear that the organization could in no way afford two part-time staff. I quit a few months later.

  48. Tony Rodriguez*

    As a CPA who has done dozens of budgets in my career, I would just take the current year information (revenues and expenses), increase each line item by 3-5%, send it back to Helen as your proposed 2025 Draft Budget. If she approves it, send it in; if she doesn’t, tell her you are unable to complete the grant application without it.

    1. Names are Hard*

      I was literally coming to say the same thing, except for the part about being a CPA! I am in the finance department of a non-profit and we always start the next years budget by looking at the detail for current year and factoring in expected growth and expense increases. Then we get to the “big picture” items. Does our facility need a major repair, do we need any new expensive equipment, etc.

  49. Librarian*

    I work with many small non- profit orgs (mostly Friends of Library orgs) that do not actually do a budget. they manage by Bill or need against bank account balance, and dinner make enough for the IRS to care. if this org wants to apply for grants, then that is a separate conversation, they will often need to do a budget, formally passed by the Board, and potentially pay for an audit to apply for some grants. What do the minutes of the Board meetings tell you, and has the Board had that initial conversation yet?

  50. WestsideStory*

    One thing I’m not seeing mentioned…and perhaps can help? I do grant writing for a local nonprofit, and like most it is incorporated as a nonprofit, which means it has to have officers like a a Treasurer. Our Treasurer puts together a budget for the Board, and that’s what I use when applying. Some funders are fine if you just copy the budget from the previous year.
    My advice would be to go directly to the Treasurer for anything financial. That is the person who has fiduciary responsibility for the organization. The one I work with has to be prodded a lot, too, she’s retired and mostly living in a different state, but I nag her mercilessly until I get the info.
    Our Organization also share key documents via Google Drive, I highly recommend that so you can keep a file of applications and key docs accessible (Charter, IRS letter, current Board of Director bios, etc.)

  51. Metal Gru*

    I could understand if she didn’t know how to create a budget, although obviously that is bad for someone running an organization, but how does she not even know what a budget is by extrapolation from her personal life! Everyone has a “budget” for their own finances, maybe it isn’t directly tracked by line item if you are financially comfortable, but you have the concept of “income $5000, rent $2000, car payment $1000” etc.

    I think I would have just tactfully tried to explain what a budget is (gritting my teeth while doing so as this is really frustrating) and suggested the 2024 numbers in budget format as a starting point.

    If LW is doing this as volunteer work in order to put it on their resume, this budget incident is potentially a useful bit of experience (if resolved by LW) to talk about.

  52. Judge Judy and Executioner*

    When I became treasurer of a non-profit, I discovered our PayPal account had an amount larger than a new teacher’s annual salary. I had previously been part of the finance committee, but no detailed statements were ever shared that included that. Every time I tried to put our money somewhere better—a bank, a mutual fund, or literally anywhere other than PayPal—I was met with resistance. Eventually, I just started transferring it to our bank account over time. The only reason we had statements and a budget is because I put it all together, reviewed it with them, and was then able to provide it for grant submissions.

    Non-profit finance is a wild ride.

    The board had a scarcity mindset and could not understand why we would put a portion of our cash into an investment that would take a couple of days to access if we needed it. They would not accept putting our money somewhere else and insisted on instant access to all 6 figures of our funds all of the time. I also continuously recommended expanding our services since we had plenty of funds. All they wanted to do was have parties. I eventually resigned when I was frustrated we were growing our bank balance without investing back into our cause.

  53. Heffalump*

    I’ve had my share of experiences where I asked someone a question, their response showed that they didn’t remotely understand the question, and I had to say, “That wasn’t the question.” I’m going to start calling that kind of response a verbal cactus.

  54. Lily Potter*

    LW, a suggestion for next time (whether with this organization or another):
    You’ve already figured out that you shouldn’t cut things so close to a deadline (been there, done that, no shade!) In addition, if something like this were to happen again, please pick up the phone and TALK with Helena/Helena-equivalent. My reading of your letter is that your communication this past time was done via text and that just doesn’t always work well. In this case, you could have more easily explained the difference between a budget and a revenue/expense sheet. You could have been more explicit about why having a budget is important and that if you didn’t get it in the format requested, the grant money probably wouldn’t come through. These are things that would have taken a few minutes to explain and might have resulted in some good Q & A followup – none of which could be easily done via text or email.

  55. Anon Grant Proposal Writer*

    Experienced grant proposal writer for multiple organizations here. One of the the skills I continually need to build is communicating with and explaining to other players exactly what I need and why. I have a very experienced CFO currently and sometimes I just don’t give him the right guidance of what I need for a grant budget and we need to go back and forth a bit.

    I’m not saying this is your fault, or that Helena or the bookkeepers do know what they’re doing; however, it is important to remember that grant proposal writing is a niche skill and every funder requires different things for financials, so it’s not inherently a sign of incompetence if Helena didn’t understand what you needed.

  56. Rajacat*

    As a funder, I worry that you shrouded the reason they were rejected from the grant last year — incompleteness. Not being able to produce a budget IS part of the work is not inane. Assessing capacity is one of the functions of grant-making.

    Grants never get magically better when they go out the door and giving folks more than they can manage is not a kindness.

    If you’re an independent grant writer, I wonder about building your network to include part-time CEO firms. That could be a useful, reciprocal relationship for you both.

    2. Heffalump*

      I think the OP is saying that Helena’s failure to give her a budget is inane, not that the funder’s requirement for a budget is inane.

  57. It doesn't have to be hard*

    I don’t think this is what Helena meant exactly, but using last year’s actuals as the next year’s budget is not a crazy strategy for budgeting for small organizations. Basically doing this says “our goal is to match last year’s performance.” Or you could apply a small percentage increase.

  58. Texan in Exile*

    The managing director at the nonprofit where I worked was so excited to get a new account – “That revenue will get us to our numbers for this year!” he said.

    I answered that no, it wouldn’t, because even though we had already gotten the check, we couldn’t recognize the revenue until the (monthly) services were delivered. He would not believe me until I got a CPA from Accounting to tell him that I was right and the MD was wrong.

    (I never could get him to understand that Slovenia and Slovakia were different places.)

    (Why yes he made $250K and I made only $50K.)

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