open thread – April 29-30, 2016

by Alison Green on April 29, 2016

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

{ 1,260 comments }

{ 1,260 comments… read them below }

  1. Ella*

    I started a new job about 7 months ago. This company is nonprofit and is connected to both the academic and healthcare industries, which are pretty new to me.

    I work for a manager who is new-ish herself, having been here less than a year when I joined. She has made many changes, which aren’t always well received as she hasn’t taken much time to learn how things are done, but instead has forged ahead with making things work the way she feels they should. She came from working in a hospital which this isn’t but she keeps trying to impose the way a hospital works, here. She’s not the best communicator and is consistently in meetings, back to back, every day so her staff have limited access, are frustrated and confused.

    But people have been here for several years! Many folks over 20 years and the company has truly generous benefits so they aren’t inclined to leave. Even one person in another department has told me that even if she were to find another job it would be approx. 60-80K less than what she makes here… she’s unhappy, not treated well by her manager but how can she give that up? Another person told me they figure they can hold on another 5 years, which will give them 30 years in, and then maybe retire. But he’s so miserable. Nice people but it’s hard to be surrounded by so many unhappy, listless people.

    I’m not sure how you motivate a workforce that is just kinda holding on in an environment where there isn’t a lot of accountability. It’s not like people don’t do their jobs but there’s no real drive to excel. My manager has come in wanting metrics, showing people change models, talking about a vision and an employee recognition program but she’s causing so much chaos in practical terms that I’m surprised most people don’t just roll their eyes at all of it.

    I am not incredibly happy myself, the work I’m doing now I did over 10 years ago and my manager doesn’t allow me to do the work we discussed I would do when she hired me. She does that work herself. In a way I feel useless in a role that has ended up being somewhat junior for me. But I feel I too am getting wooed into staying and making the best of it… I’m concerned in 10-15 years that’ll be me, unhappy, wishing I had left now.

    So my question is, has anyone else been in this kind of position and what did you do? Have you seen a workplace like this (I never have) improve and if so, how?

    Thanks!

    1. Sunflower*

      Why do you think people are unhappy? Personally it sounds a bit to me like people have been there a long time, are happy to keep doing things the way they are done and don’t like change. Is there anything about your bosses ideas that are bad besides the fact that it’s not how it’s done there?

      As for your duties, talk to your manager! You’re only 7 months in so it’s possible those duties could be coming your way. I think it’s too soon to tell if you’ll like working there or not. Unless you’re totally miserable, talk to you boss and stick it out for a few more months. With time you should know if you can see yourself there long term.

      1. Ella*

        Their unhappiness seems to stem from changes that are being made without a full understanding of the current processes. They aren’t as resistant to change as I had thought they would be, for a place with so many people who’ve been here longterm. But there is a very high level decision making process that is taking place that isn’t taking a lot of end user’s and staff member’s work into account. It’s causing problems but when they are brought up they are usually not paid much attention to. When a big problem comes up and things have escalated then the attitude my manager has is ‘why didn’t you tell me sooner?’ But the thing is they did…….

        1. Kathy*

          I feel ya! I’m in a unique position in that I have been at my company for 26 years, but have recently taken over as office manager (about a year and a half). About half the staff have been there 20+ years doing the same job. They don’t particularly like change, but I’ve had a rapport with them for years, so I can get a title more cooperation. I think they know that I am listening and try to take their feelings into account. I will also commiserate with them about the pains of change, and help counsel them through it. Some of them will never change and will always complain, but others will want to cooperate if they feel you are listening to them. However, having been here for so long, my advice to you is not to get too comfortable. The longer you stay, the harder it is to leave, and you’ll end up just like them. Give it a few years to build up experience, but you will grow more by moving on.

    2. Glasskey*

      Yep, been there. More than once. No, it did NOT improve. I asked myself whether these people actually started out that way and decided that the answer was no, they didn’t, and that over the years they had made the same excuses–money, benefits, job security, whatever–to stay put. That was a revelation. Don’t get me wrong, these are all completely valid reasons at certain times in life-but over several years they can also become excuses for fear of the unknown. I have no problem with someone staying in the same position for 30 years as long as they are content–good for them, I say! What I couldn’t handle was the bitterness, cynicism, and apathy that went along with it in too many cases. And that’s often a reflection of the job culture itself.

      Now having said that, you’re talking about people who have been at your office for YEARS. You’ve been there a matter of months. So while I understand your concern about the contagion of creeping zombification (is that a word?), I wouldn’t worry about it too much at this point. Ask yourself: What positive thing do I want to get out of this experience that will help me in the future–a new skill set, a certain amount of $ saved up, a predictable schedule that allows me to take care of other priorities in life–and then constantly check in on how that’s going. As you get nearer to that goal, start making plans to get out. And then: GET OUT.

    3. DB*

      This sounds very like a situation where I work (academic and science associated). The CEO was new when I was hired and while I really loved her ideas, she had zero communication skills and no abilities to motivate any of the staff. It was a hard place to be for the first year just because I couldn’t see a future for myself in the position and the CEO was constantly changing her mind about what my role would be. About half of the administration moved to different jobs and the other half tried to hunker down and gut it out. She ended up being fired three years in. While the board also loved her ideas and tried to give her the time to implement they just could not support the chaos and drama. Since you have only been there 7 months, you have time to wait (unless your life is miserable, no job is worth that). You never know what is going to happen down the road. Give yourself the time to see what happens with the organization and build your resume. Take a deep breath and remember that you don’t have to be there 20 years when two will suffice.

      1. ActualName*

        I just got flash backs to when I changed my name. So much paper work and stress, and since I was a minor it wasn’t even my problem since my dad was actually the one doing it. But yeah, for about six months he’d just say, “Oh, right we need to update your name on X, too.” Because there was just. so. many. things.

    4. Donna*

      I had a boss like that in my last job. She would make plans without thinking things through or asking for input, and if we brought it to her attention that something wasn’t working, in her mind it was because we weren’t doing it right.

      As a result, we only involved her in our work if it was absolutely necessary. It was much better to feign misunderstanding or ask forgiveness instead of permission, because if you asked permission the answer would usually be “no” (or your plan would be changed to something so unworkable that you’d be sorry you asked).
      Another thing that worked was to (stealthily) encourage the customers to complain. (We were union, so this was fairly safe. Also, despite her faults, our boss was quick to recognize if we were faulted for following her procedures.) She was very conscious of what the public and the higher-ups thought of her department, so customer opinions held a lot of weight.

      I worked there for six years, and her attitude towards employee opinions never changed. This irritated everyone, but most people still stayed on. The work culture wasn’t terrible, it was just a dictatorship.

      I didn’t stay on because she had me doing a lot of things that were not in line with my career—sometimes this is fine, but in my case, it was menial stuff, not an opportunity for growth.
      It took away my time and resources, so that I ended up doing less of what I was hired to do (and what the public expected of me). I realized that my skills were becoming outdated and if I didn’t get out of there soon, I’d be unhireable in a couple of years.

  2. hermit crab*

    How much vacation (and other leave) do you actually take?

    We’ve had a few recent threads talking about how much leave everyone gets, and they’ve been really interesting. But how much of that do people actually use?

    The company I work for just changed the rules about how much vacation you can roll over, so today I got about 40 hours’ worth of vacation cashout money along with my normal paycheck. The cash is nice and I’m certainly thankful that we do cashouts instead of use-it-or-lose it, but it makes me feel like I should take more vacation!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I use the max, because all of the office jobs I’ve had have been stingy (two weeks). When I was a teacher, I used everything, including the summers. I’ve never been in danger of hitting my maximum accrual.

    2. ExceptionToTheRule*

      Every minute they give me (which is currently 22 days). We’re use it or lose it & I’m not giving back my benefits.

      1. Shishimai*

        This. If I have vacation left unplanned around, oh, September, I start looking for places to use it. I give my employer enough of my time; I’m not leaving paid vacation on the table, because I can’t roll it into the next calendar year.

      2. Lucky*

        I moved to a job this year that is use-it-or-lose-it. People actually take vacations here and management expects people to take vacations and it’s a whole new world for me. Even with a few trips already planned, I’ll have 3-4 days left at the end of the year, so I’d better start looking for another interesting place to visit.

      3. Rabbit*

        Wow. I am truly envious of your 22 days! My company “generously” gives 5 days per year, but makes it hard for anyone other than The Big Bosses to use them. I got chewed out for being out one day for an all-day dental appointment. :/

    3. EE Lady*

      I was in the Air Force for 10 years and I got 30 days of paid leave each year (but you had to use it on weekends too if you were taking a Friday-Monday off, so 4 days instead of 2 in that situation). Anyway, most people would use all 30 days every year, but there were rare people who would let it build up.

      1. Ack Ack*

        I use every single minute of my vacation time, every year. It’s part of my compensation, and I love to travel.

      2. Chris*

        Unless you are saving up for that sweet terminal leave!!! When I hit 400 days left in the Navy, I had enough time saved up and that i was going to accrue before I got out that over 25% of my time left was going to be on leave. Felt good.

        1. Girasol*

          I’m with Chris. 15 PTO days a year but can’t alway use them. 1000 hours of endless carryover. So now I can have 50 days off at end of career or cash out at fifty cents on the dollar. Woo hoo!

    4. Sassy AAE*

      I’m at my very first job with PTO/vacation, and I’m for sure trying to use it all. We’re on a use it or lose it system, which is a bummer, but that just means that everyone’s fine with people leaving for 2+ weeks at a time.

      Last winter, while I was still an intern, only I and another person worked from the office for the last week in December! Kinda crazy.

    5. EA*

      I get a month, I take around 2-3 weeks. I cash out 1 week (which is a nice policy they allow). When I worked in a law firm, I got 3 weeks, but would never dare to take more then a week, if I did, passive aggression would ensue.

    6. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Everything that doesn’t roll over — I usually try to keep a week banked for just in case situations, but I need to be out of the office!

      1. Karowen*

        Ditto! So I always wind up using my full 4 weeks, but it’s 1 week from the previous year and 3 from this year.

    7. Kristine*

      My company rolls PTO over up to a certain maximum, which I think I’m close to hitting. Last year I took 3 of my 15 PTO days because that’s all I could get approved to take. But I did get approved for 4 days off next month so I’m excited about that.

    8. Charlotte Collins*

      I am currently hoarding my vacation time. I’m looking for a new job and using it for interviews. But I get paid out for any time I have left when I leave.

      On the other hand, I want to try to use up my sick time.

    9. Amy M in HR*

      All of it, every year. I am a firm believer that everyone should use their PTO and recharge.

    10. ThatGirl*

      We get 18 days (16 PTO + 2 float) at 0-5 years of service, and it’s use it or lose it — so I use it!

    11. Sadsack*

      I get 4 weeks (started with 2 and earned additional with years served at my co). I use every single minute of it. I don’t recall what our policy is regarding use-it-or-lose-it but I think that is it. I don’t think I would get cash back unless I were leaving the company. I’d rather have my time off anyway. I can’t take extended vacations during a large portion of the year due to my work but I make up for that in the off months.

    12. J*

      I take it all! All 4 weeks’ vacation and 1 week personal time. We also get 12 sick days which accrue through the year. The other two banks are front-loaded and we get that time January 1st. I work in a public library. One time I rolled a week over because we were hoping to have a baby in the next calendar year and we don’t have paid family leave. She’s 6 months old now, so it worked out! ;)

    13. SirTechSpec*

      My org does combined time off, so getting sick a lot means not much vacation accrual for me. The amount is otherwise generous, though; most of my co-workers have been here a while and have to go out of their way to use up their accumulated time before they hit the use-it-or-lose-it maximum.

    14. Tau*

      I use all of mine, since we’ve got use-it-or-lose-it and no rollover. This gets interesting near the end of the year, since I like to squirrel away a few days PTO in case of emergencies – I think I ended up taking Wednesday or Thursday afternoon off for over a month straight late last year in order to burn through those.

      FWIW, I’m in the UK and get 30 days holiday, but no bank holidays.

    15. LawCat*

      I’ve started taking more vacation. This summer, I’m taking two weeks. I’m planning to take a few days in October. I’ll probably take another week at Christmas.

    17. BRR*

      I get 22 days and will use most of it. We can roll some over (not sure how much) but we have to use the roll over days by April 30th of the following year. At my last job we got 26 days and over the course of two years I banked 15 days when I left without feeling like I sacrificed anything to save that amount.

      1. BRR*

        We also get 12 sick days but I WFH mondays and fridays and my company is VERY flexible so I can just go if it’s one dr appointment.

    19. LSCO*

      I get 33 days, of those 8 are bank holidays which I have to take off as the office is closed. So 25 days (5 full mon-fri weeks) to take in a year, and I use it all. There is no roll-over allowed, so if I didn’t taek it I’d lose it. I’m really bad at spacing it all out though, and so this year in March I was practically working part time, taking off random days for no reason other than burning through the PTO. It was good in one sense, I got to take the car to the garage and attend dentist appointments and catch up with friends over brunch – stuff that you just can’t schedule in a full working week, but felt a bit wasteful. I should really start looking to space my PTO out a bit better this year.

    20. Juli G.*

      Most vacation days I use. Our PTO policy is extremely loose though and I don’t need to use any prescribed bucket of time for appointments, kid stuff, etc. so if I leave a day or two on the table, I don’t feel like I’m losing out.

      1. Meg Murry*

        Yes, this is where I am too. I try to schedule to use all of my days, but if I leave 1 or 1.5 days on the table but I was able to flex my time throughout the year so that didn’t have to burn PTO to occasionally cut out early or come in late, I’m ok with that.

        If I started getting nickeled and dimed about using PTO instead of taking that hour or two here or there though, you’d bet I’d use every single hour allotted to me.

        This year I have more vacation days than I’ve ever had before (4 weeks, plus generous additional sick and personal days) and for once I don’t have a big medical procedure or family wedding, etc to burn up a bunch of them, so I’m trying to figure out how in the world to schedule them all. It’s a wonderful problem to have, after so many years of scrimping and saving my meager 5-8 days.

    21. Chris*

      My salary band just got lumped into unlimited vacation time. As long as you and your manager agree, you can take as much as you want or need. Great perk, but it makes it difficult to tell family “I can’t travel to see you this year because I have already used all my vacation.”

      2. SL #2*

        I’m not gonna lie, I miss unlimited vacation! I had it at my previous job and not having to count hours/days when I felt the need to take a long weekend was so nice.

      3. Total Rando*

        I’m curious – how does unlimited vacation work with an extended absence like maternity leave?

        I’m going on maternity leave and have to be very conscious with my vacation between now and then so that I have enough to be paid for the few extra weeks I want to take. I would love to not have to think about it too much.

    23. NacSacJack*

      I use it because we can only carry over 5 days and we can only carry that over if we didn’t buy any days or we sold those days back. The one year I bought vacation I wound up technically losing 3 days because my director freaked when I asked to take the last week of the year off even thought the PM said no problem. I have 30 days now and no desire to pay for 6 more days at XXX out of my check per week (at my rate it is almost XXX).

    24. LCL*

      I keep a lot of vacation on the books. I have been here a long time, so get 30 days a year. I am also dealing with an elderly relative, and want to have a lot of paid leave available if I need it.
      My job allows us to cash in vac, and I do from time to time. Last time I bought a guitar, this time (maybe this weekend! I’m seriously considering buying a full suspension mountain bike.
      I take a lot of long weekends. I also take a lot of random middle of the week days off. I am fortunate to live in a sorta metropolitan area, so I don’t have to travel for recreation.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        In with you. I like to keep some on reserve for emergencies. I’ve got a sick father and a kid with epilepsy so it would give me a lot of anxiety if I ran my pto down to nothing or nearly nothing like a lot of my coworkers do. Mine constantly accrues each pay period and I take small increments more than I do longer blocks of time, but I still manage to take one full week off a year, plus tack on an extra day to long holidays throughout the year and still have enough in my bank. (We get about three weeks a year.)

    25. another IT manager*

      I usually take 2 weeks (out of 3 accumulated), because getting coverage is a pain. But I have a new boss who doesn’t (seem to want) weird OTT coverage shenanigans, so I’m arranging two weeks now and will probably take a week this winter around NYE.

    26. Leah the designer*

      The company I work for now is kind of stingy. I get a week of PTO per year until I’ve been here three years. After that it’s two weeks PTO. It slowly (think ten years) builds up to the max of a month. Paid sick time is accrued at a rate of a half day a month. Cashouts are only for those leaving the company.

    27. Jadelyn*

      My employer does separate buckets for sick/vacation – I use my sick time pretty liberally, and previously had been taking my vacation days one or two at a time and timing them around long weekends and holidays, to give myself extended weekends for local-ish vacations (driving there and back, rather than flying). But right now I’m saving up my vacation, because I would like to actually *go* somewhere this year, and be gone from work for a full week or more. Not sure where yet, though.

    28. SL #2*

      I’m entry-level, so I get the company standard of 10 days/year. I do get rollover, but I’m not near maximum accrual yet, so I’m just hoarding the time for now. It’s really easy because I tend to take shorter vacations, plus I work a 9/80 schedule so I plan travel for weekends that I have the extra Friday off so I can use one less day. I’m also a huge music fan and I’ve been known to travel far and wide for certain bands, or take an afternoon off so I can make sure I get a front-row spot if the show is local. Can’t do that if I don’t have some time banked up!

    29. CMT*

      We have to use 2 weeks worth during a calendar year, or at least cash out enough to get us to 2 weeks. I’d say I normally take around 2 1/2 – 3 weeks in a year (spread out). Although I’m about to go on a 3 week vacation and I just recently took a week off for medical reasons. And I’m sure some other little things will pop up before the end of the year. I wouldn’t try to do this every year, though, I think I’d get some side eye.

    30. pnw*

      I get just over eight weeks of PTO per year (324 hours) but that includes holidays and sick time. On our anniversary date anything over 160 hours rolls over into our disability bank which we can use for long term illnesses or FMLA. We can cash out some of our PTO but only at 50%. I sometimes roll over 10-20 hours but I use most of my leave. The company I work for also contributes about 20+ hours per year to our disability and I have dipped into that leave bank when I’ve been on FMLA.

    31. Oryx*

      Old Job was 10 days PTO — Sick and Vacay combined in one bucket, use it or lose it by end of fiscal year (June). I used all of it, with 75% being used for vacation since I thankfully don’t get sick often. (If I did call off sick, it was more of the mental healthy day variety.) I’d usually save it for around Christmas and maximize paid holidays to take a week or two off.

      Current Job is 10 days Vacay (sick is separate) and all of it can rollover up to some ridiculously high limit. For some weird reason I feel less inclined/pressured to take time off because it rolls over so I’m taking some a couple of days this summer and might in December but most of it I’m just kind of sitting on for 2017 trips.

    32. LQ*

      Sick and vacation are separate.
      I take a lot of my vacation time as small chunks here and there. I’ll do a few weeks of taking Wednesdays off when it isn’t super busy for me. I love 2 Fridays a week. I’m not a big traveler and a Wednesday lets me get stuff done and then feel like I have all weekend to bask.

    33. Chris*

      I get 20 vacation days, 11 holidays, and 12 sick days/year. I can bank up to 40 vacation days before I stop accruing, but it’s never gotten to that point as I use it all.

      1. NASAcat*

        I’m similar. 3 weeks, 11 holidays, 2 floating, 12 sick days.

        I use at least 2 weeks and I like to go big! International/epic/I save a lot of money so I can go guilt free and enjoy myself vacations.

        I always like to have some vacation days banked just in case.

    34. Danae*

      I use most of my PTO to cover the time at the end of the year when I’m part of the skeleton crew who has to be online/available in case something breaks, but there’s no actual billable work coming in for 3+ weeks because everyone who is responsible for getting work to us is out.

      I’ll end up taking all of it, but I won’t be traveling or actually taking off any time except for actual holidays. I take a day or two off during the year, but I save most of it for December.

      1. hermit crab*

        Yeah, that’s closer to my situation. Taking vacation without it affecting your billable hours/utilization numbers (which are tied to bonuses/raises/promotions, at our company) sounds like a magical paradise to me!

    35. S0phieChotek*

      I’ll use mine, because we can only roll over 40 hours, otherwise I lose it.
      I’ll probably save it towards the last quarter of the year if I can, in case a true emergency arises before then, but otherwise use it or lose it.
      (Don’t remember if PTO gets paid out if we get laid off/fired. I should ask.)

    36. Sparkly Librarian*

      I’m used to taking long weekends here and there instead of longer vacations, and I was on new-hire probation most of last year. I’m used to having about 40 hours vacation accrued at any one time. Sometimes it’s more, before I take a planned vacation. (When I left my last long-term job, I had about 8 weeks paid out: just under the cap of 2x annual leave.) Right now I’m making adoption plans, so any unused vacation will be beneficial when I have to go out on leave. Same for sick time, although I’ve been taken ill unexpectedly TWICE in the last week and have had to go home early. I’m glad I have it for when I need it, anyway.

    37. ACA*

      As much as I can to stay under the (24 day) cap! I’ll probably take more going forward, but I’ve been in my current job less than a year, so I’ve been trying to keep my absences to a minimum.

    38. Liana*

      3 weeks vacation, plus pretty decent sick time (I can’t remember the exact amount and I’m too lazy to check, but it’s pretty good). At my last job, I ended up not using a bunch of it and I took it as a cash payout when I left, which is the law in my state. At this job, I’m making a point of using it all. I’ve been really focusing on travelling internationally more and being better at work-life balance.

    39. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Since I have been at this job (2 weeks vacation, 6 sick/personal days), I have taken all of my vacation days but usually don’t take all of the sick/personal days, of which we can roll over 3. I’m always afraid I’ll get sick and need it, but then by the end of the calendar year I have only used a couple. And then of course since it’s December, I can’t really take any of it because most people are taking time off for the holidays.

      This year I have an extra week of vacation plus an extra “float” day and I’m not sure when I’m going to take it! I took a week off in March for a trip and then I’m taking the week of Christmas/New Years’ off. Maybe just a random week in the summer? And I’ll try to actually use some of my personal days for some random Fridays or Mondays off.

      My last company was a total stickler about our hours (even though I was salaried) and honestly my current company isn’t. If I’ve had to go home early because I didn’t feel well or had a doctor’s appointment in the middle of the day, nobody cares. So I think that’s why I have such a hard time justifying using all of my time off, since I’ve been able to be so flexible!

      1. LC*

        It might be useful to consider your time off together and to think about how many days you’d keep in your back pocket as sick days in that case. It may be six…but it may also be more like three, in which case you shouldn’t feel too bad taking three personal days.

    40. Noah*

      We have unlimited PTO for managers, directors, and VPs. I generally take two full weeks a year and a few days a month. Unless I’m in a foreign country though my cell phone is always close by. Luckily, everyone here makes an effort to not call you while you are on vacation unless it is an emergency.

    41. accidental diva*

      Where I am now we get 12 days (1/2 day per paycheck) and as of now I’m using most of it – between vacation and my brother’s wedding coming up I’ll have about one and a half days left after the wedding – and then accrue another 4 through the year.

      I’m hoping to use most if not all of it – we also get separate sick leave at the same rate which is awesome (I don’t feel angst calling in over a migraine or a doctors appointment.)

    42. Elizabeth West*

      We only get to roll over 40 hours. I’ve been taking small bits here and there (but still accruing). When we get close to year-end, people go oops, I forgot to take my PTO and the office gets really empty. I will be taking a few days around my birthday, which falls right on Memorial Day weekend. Though I am sadly not going anywhere, unless a small miracle happens between now and then. :(

    43. Hattie McDoogal*

      I’m surprised at how many of you can’t roll your vacation over. How does that work for places that really don’t allow you to take time off? Are you just SOL?

      I’m in Canada so it’s a bit different here — employers are supposed to withhold a certain amount of your paycheque as vacation time, and it gets paid out when you leave if you don’t use it. I’m in one of those places that doesn’t really allow me time off, even though I officially have 2 weeks of vacation, so whenever I leave I’ll get a nice lump sum. Last year I took one day of vacation (tacked on to a holiday, to go see my dad) and the year before I took 2 days (to move).

      1. I'm Not Phyllis*

        I’ve never heard of that (I’m in Canada as well). The norm where I’ve worked seems to be that if you’re full time you get a vacation allowance, and if you’re not you get 4% in lieu (which either gets added to your pay, or gets paid out once or twice per year).

        I get 3 week’s vacation plus float days – I use all the float ones (use ’em or lose ’em!) but I try to keep 5 vacation days in the bank (which is our max allowable) “just in case.”

        1. Hattie McDoogal*

          Yeah, I shouldn’t be making generalizations since it probably varies from province to province. Every job I’ve ever had has either paid the vacation pay on every cheque (which I don’t like) or paid it out all at once on the final paycheque. I’ve never gotten a year-end payout.

      2. Ad Astra*

        Yeah, with “use it or lose it,” you’re just SOL if you can’t find time to actually use your vacation. At a lot of my companies, people would take vacation and then *work* on vacation. Gross.

      3. Crystal Vu*

        Well, *some* use-it-or-lose-it organizations may still make a provision for allowing cashing out or selling back vacation leave. I live in California so by law, my employer has to pay out my vacation balance if I leave. My employer also allows vacation leave to be cashed out at employee request.

        But yeah, many American employees are SOL. :(

    44. ModernHypatia*

      Tidily, just at my anniversary in my current job (been here a year next week): I get just over 4 weeks, and I’ve taken just over 2. (two week-long trips). I’m thinking about taking another week sometime this summer to work on projects.

      I like to build up a bit of a buffer in case something comes up (need for paid leave, or job loss), so I’ve tended to take less the first year or two in a new job until I’ve got 3-4 weeks saved and then take a bit more leave.

    45. Beaker*

      I get 2 weeks of paid vacation and 6 days unpaid personal/medical time. It’s a use it or lose it system so I use ALL of my vacation and sit on my personal time for as long as possible. At the end of the year we get half the personal time we have left paid out. The worst part about this, however, is that I’ve had this for the 9 years I’ve been here. Once I hit 10 years, I’ll finally be up to 3 weeks vacation then at 20 years, I get 4 weeks.

    46. HRChick*

      I get 10 hours of vacation a month. I haven’t taken any in a while because we’re TTC and I need to save up vacation leave for maternity leave.

      For sick leave, I’ve been trying to get better about my health, so I’ve been using a lot for appointments.

    47. LargishMargish*

      I get 28.5 days of vacation/personal time. This is separate from legal holidays and sick leave. I have now been here long enough that I can get a payout of up to a week vacation. We can also carryover a week and save a week in sabbatical. I usually use most of my vacation, but save a few couple days for payout and a day to carryover to the new year. I like to carryover a day to the new year in case we have a bad weather day at the of the calendar year. I live where it snows so I like to have that cushion.

      I haven’t been sick so I haven’t used any sick leave in over a year. I don’t come into work when I sick either. I don’t have kids and they don’t let me use sick leave for my dog’s vet appointments.

    48. Ad Astra*

      I’m on my fourth job in five years (I know, I know), which is part of why I’ve only once taken a full 10 days of vacation in a calendar year.

      – In 2011, I was only eligible for 5 days of vacation (prorated because of my start date), and used all of it at once.
      – In 2012, I used all of my 10 days of vacation, but since my schedule was Thursday-Monday or Friday-Tuesday, I spent most of it on one-off Saturday activities like bridal showers and graduations.
      – In 2013, I resigned sometime in April and my remaining vacation was paid out. I used that money/time to move to a different state for my next job.
      – Also in 2013, I was eligible for 5 days at my new job and used 3 of them on my wedding.
      – In 2014, I got laid off and my remaining vacation was paid out. I used that time/money to move to a different state where my in-laws would take us in.
      – In 2015, I got a new job that offered only 5 days of vacation per year. I quit within 8 months, and had a day or so paid out to me.

      This year, I’ve used like 1.5 days so far and I don’t even know what to do with the remaining 69 hours. Our office also closes for a week after Christmas, so I might take like a 5-day vacation this summer? I don’t know. This is uncharted territory.

    49. Kittymommy*

      It’s is graduated based on how long you’ve been with the company. Right now I earn 120 hours a year. And I think I have somewhere around 240 built up. We also get a bonus of hours if w don’t use sick leave. I’m really bad about never taking time off.

    50. Witty Nickname*

      I get 27 days per year. I probably take ~3 weeks each year; I have to keep an eye on my accrual though, because I stop accruing more PTO once I hit 1.5 x my annual rate in the bank, so I make sure I take enough time each year to stay below that (but I live in a state where they have to pay out any time I have if I leave the company, so I try to keep as much banked as possible).

      1. Witty Nickname*

        To clarify: the 27 days is just PTO. I get 10 paid holidays, and unlimited sick time since I’m an exempt employee. I rarely take any sick time though – maybe a day every few years (I’m rarely sick enough that I can’t at least work from home).

    51. Anna*

      I try to roll over two or three days each year so I’m not totally bereft at the beginning of the new year, so I don’t use ALL of it, but I take at least ten days off a year.

    52. Person of Interest*

      I get two weeks, plus our office is closed the week between Christmas and New Years. I actually hate this kind of arrangement because it means I have to use at least a couple of my 10 vacation days for the Jewish holidays (more if I want to travel and spend them with my family), and the office closure is during a time I would actually get a lot of work done (I used to love this at my old job when everyone was gone for Christmas and I got so much done!). Here there’s no switching it up (trading December days for my holidays) because we aren’t allowed to do flex time backward that way. We can carry over 5 days, but they must be used by June 30 – so I can’t even bank last year’s vacation toward next year’s High Holidays. Sigh.

    53. Crystal Vu*

      I pretty much use all of my vacation leave…eventually. Sometimes I save it so I can take a week off, other times I take it a day here or there so I can deal with car repairs or the plumber or whatever. I get 15 days a year of vacation leave, plus two floating holidays. The floating holidays are use-it-or-lose it so I try to burn them earlier in the year. The vacation leave rolls over, no problem, but it is capped at twice my yearly accrual. I don’t think I will ever hit the cap, not in my current tier. Even the next tier, I probably will be able to burn it fast enough to keep from capping out.

      A lot of my coworkers tend not to use much of it, then cash it out once or twice a year. Twice yearly is the maximum allowed, but I guess there’s no limit on the amount except you can’t cash out more than what you have. I don’t know; I’ve never attempted to cash out.

      1. Crystal Vu*

        Crud, forgot to address my sick leave. I get one day a month of sick leave, and I’m trying to keep a minimum reserve of 10 days. I’ll lose it if I leave my job but I can use it for kin care (thank you, California) as well as for my own illnesses and my aging mother is winding up in the hospital a lot more these days. It’ll be nice to have a bank if I have to go take care of her for a week or something like that.

    54. GOG11*

      I get 13 days per year plus a flex day and I take it all because I lose it if I don’t. It’s really hard to take time off most times of the year, but when the slow period rolls around, I take it all in one giant chunk, which is completely and totally fine by me.

    56. Laura*

      All of it! I’m already out of sick time (strep immediately after I started, then wisdom teeth removal scheduled next week). I’m going to need a fat vacation at some point…

    57. Elliot*

      I’m currently hoarding PTO. We can accumulate up to 120 hours, I am expecting to need medical leave next year, and I want to have as much of it paid as possible.

      1. Elliot*

        Also, even though I’m oddly classified as hourly, I make my own schedule and work whatever hours I want as long as I work a certain number of evenings and weekends a month. If I want want a day off I can simply schedule to work a different day that week when I make my monthly calendar, and if I need a sick day I can usually come in on a day off (and usually to) to make it up. Having such a flexible schedule as well as being required to weekdays off makes it easy to take time off without using PTO. I took four days off to travel out of state and simply put forty hours in before I left and forty when i got back. And schedule my first day back in the evening to recover in the morning!

    58. Audiophile*

      In the last few years, I’ve taken a few of my vacation days, I only got 40 hours for the last four years. I couldn’t roll any over and whatever I didn’t take was cashed out, usually in the first check in December. Kind of a pain, because that meant my other check was short since I’d already requested time off.

    59. Lowercase holly*

      we also get a vacation time cash-out when we leave (but not for unused rollover vacation if we’re still an employee) so i try to use as much as allowed (151 hrs/yr). we also have a separate bucket for personal days and the time stops accruing when it hits two days so i always use those as well. i never use as much sick time as i have because it actually accrues at a high rate. probably set up that way in case someone has a serious illness.

    60. CE*

      I get 20 days per year of vacation leave. Company policy is that everyone uses a block of at least ten days, and uses up the rest of their leave in whatever way. I think it can roll over indefinitely, though there’s also a policy to have a talk to direct reports if their accrual gets up to 30 days (I think). I only took about eight days in my first year, but took a full month in one go last year, and this year I’ve been taking a few days here or there to make up long weekends. Those are all acceptable culturally.

      As for sick leave, I get 15 days a year and have used maybe 4-5 over two years. I need to get better at actually not coming into the office when I’m feeling under the weather rather than doing the martyr mustn’t-miss-meetings thing.

    61. Bob*

      I’ve been at my job for 3 years. I get 15 days and I’ve never taken a single vacation day

  3. SunnyD*

    Reg poster but going anon(ish) for this. I work in events. I found out we are getting an assistant in our dept(I’m a level above that) and I feel weirdly not okay with it. This person already has worked in our company part-time in a different role so I know she’s a good worker and I like her as a person so this is driving me nuts trying to understand why I’m feeling this way. I think I might have pinpointed it though.

    My boss has said we are 2 people doing the work of 3.5 so obviously we need help. Since I’m non-exempt, I am working quite a bit of overtime but my boss really takes on the majority of the core work and I pick up the little things. I started about 7 months ago and I feel like I should have more responsibilities and that I should be taking the lead on events more. I know my boss really wants this too as she has told me many times she wants us each to take on our own events and she’ll oversee major decisions. We are just so busy that it’s a lot of ‘you’ll learn this at some point but we need to get through this first so I’ll just do it for now’. I feel like this new person is going to be taking away chances and opportunities to learn from me since now my boss has more people to distribute the work to. Maybe I’m also feeling a little like she took this job because she needed one and I’m questioning if she has any actual interest in it. I know people need to eat and pay rent but I’m more wondering if she’ll just bail when something more in line with her interests comes up.

    This sounds so ridiculous when I write it out but it feels so real to me. Has anyone else ever dealt with similar feelings? How do I try to get past it? I tried searching AAM archives but I’m not sure how to describe this situation. I really don’t want to end up resenting this person!

    1. Dangerfield*

      I understand what you’re saying, but if your boss is really too busy to train you and is just constantly fighting fires, AND there genuinely is enough work for three people, then the chances are that this will let you do more. Before she comes on board, can you sit down with your boss and ask about how the allocation of work will be once your new person’s on board? You aren’t at the same level so you shouldn’t be doing exactly the same work, and that might help your boss to think about how she will distribute things.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        This will also be your opportunity to express interest in particular areas that you want to fall under the auspices of your position. As you discuss with your boss the potential duties for the new position, you have the opportunity to weigh in with your preferences.

    2. Sassy AAE*

      So! I recently got “promoted” and now work salary. To replace me the company decided to hire an intern. At first I felt really… displaced? Even though it was fine. Now that she’s working here it’s kind of clear how much we needed her. She’s able to take away little tasks that just took up too much of my time. Now I can devote myself to even more indepth and interesting work for a variety of our clients, instead of doing small-time busy work for one or two.

      When you have more time thanks to this assistant your opportunities to grow will multiply, not diminish. And trust me, I do events too, if she doesn’t have an interest she’ll leave, fast. Planning events is literally the most stressful thing about my job. I love it, because I love logistics. But, if you can’t hack it it become apparent SUPER fast.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I wonder if part of it for you, Sassy, and maybe for SunnyD as well, is that when you are doing all those lower-level things that are nonetheless important (the stuff admins are supposed to do), you sort of feel like a superhero. They’re easy to see, easy to define, and success if easily identified. You feel important and indispensable. (Because a good admin IS important and indispensable.)

        Once those go away, and they’re done by the new admin, it’s harder to identify how you’ll excel.

        Efficiency experts always point out that the low-priority (C-level) tasks are seductive because they’re so easily identified, and easily done. But they’re not as important. (Admins have their own versions of C-level tasks to beware of, btw; don’t mean to diss them and their work as less important overall.)

        So things are being redefined, which is unsettling in general. But your job is also going to get intellectually harder, because you won’t be able to fall back on those easily identified, easily accomplished tasks as a source for accomplishment satisfaction.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Makes me wonder if New Person is supposed to do what SunnyD is doing and SunnyD is going to get more of the nuts and bolts type stuff.

    3. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      Feelings are valid. You have every right to be concerned, worried, bothered, annoyed. I also think it’s great that you understand that you’re feeling threatened that this person may cost you opportunities.

      What you have to do now if acknowledge those feelings and move forward. If this person takes over some of the assistant tasks and frees up your boss a bit, she’ll have time to train you!

      Also, I am *horrible* with the “it’s just quicker to do it myself” mentality. I had a lead who finally said, “but how will I ever learn to do it” and it really was the kick in the pants I needed to let go. This is one of the times to be insistent without being aggressive!

    4. BRR*

      Not sure what the reason is but some thoughts:
      -Maybe she’ll take over your little things and you can finally get your own events.
      -Are you not happy about losing overtime? Some people don’t mind working more if they’re getting paid more.

      It doesn’t sound like they would take away big opportunities from you as that isn’t what their role is.

    5. CM*

      It’s not ridiculous. I’ve been in a similar situation where I knew I shouldn’t, but still felt threatened by a coworker. I really wanted to work on a certain project, and when he expressed an interest in doing the same thing, our boss went from agreeing that I would work on the project to saying that maybe we could split it up or he could take this project and I’d take one in the future. In my case, I tried to position myself to get the opportunity I wanted by laying the groundwork (doing background research, making connections with people involved in that project, talking to my boss about future plans for the project and bringing up issues that I had identified). In the end everyone kind of assumed that I was the person in charge of that project. For you I think it’s easier since this person is a level below you. If you can identify things you want to work on and things you think the new person should work on, and talk to your boss about the strategy for allocating work, this could be good for you. You could give work to the new assistant that doesn’t require a lot of training, and that could free up some of your time to lead an event.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Some action steps I have used in the past:

      Preemptive strikes. I know the boss will need A. So I got it prepped without her mentioning it.

      I know that Big Project X is starting. Rather than wait to be told my part– because I KNEW pigs will fly first- I went to the boss and said, “If you need someone to do B and C for project X, I have done that before/know how/other reason and I can do that for you if you want.”

      Boss is in the middle of task E. I know she is going to have a problem because she is lacking something. something is broken, or something is just a huge time suck. I would try to pull that together into a workable thing before she needs it.

      I have been where you are. Once I have been at a job for six months it seemed like I should be doing more by now, or I should be further along. Reality is that it can take up to a year to really see what is involved in doing a job.

      Worrying about the new hire, might be valid. But it is also a waste of precious time and energy. It’s much better use of time and energy to look around to find ways to beef up your own thing that you are doing. All the while, you still can be helping the new hire acclimate to the workplace. The unseen benefits in helping the new hire here are that it reinforces what you have learned so far, because of the repetition of teaching it; it makes you look like more of a leader/established employee; and it will help deal with some of these mixed feelings that you have because it will give you a practical activity to do.

      Not easy answers to read, I am sure. But it’s long been my thought that it’s what we do when the chips are down that make us or break us. Work places are tough in this regard, I do agree, but we are not powerless in these situations, either.

      Personally, when I have hit one of these situations in the past, I made sure I got extra rest at night. Especially in the middle of the week where I could really feel myself starting to tank. It’s a big effort to work through this stuff.

  4. Visitor*

    What do you do when your manager tells you something (to have everyone in at 8 am on Friday) and you ask him if you need to put it on their calendar and they say ‘no’. Friday comes and the manager is late, saying he never said that. When you try to remind him what was agreed to (calmly, in private) he says ‘uh let me give you same advice, don’t argue with higher ups’. You’re told no need to confirm, you were told you were wrong to send an email to the team coming in… what do you do next week?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      So by “everyone,” your manager meant everyone including him? Is the issue that everyone usually comes in later (8:30 or 9:00), and he wanted them especially to come in early on Friday, and everyone else made the special effort to come in early?

      I was going to let him off the hook for maybe meaning that he wants you all to be early, with him strolling in whenever he wants, but the “saying he never said that” bit means he really either forgot (unlikely but possible) or changed his mind but didn’t want to admit it… or is making some kind of power play (you do whatever I tell you, even if it’s unreasonable).

      I hope what bothers you the most about this is that he told you to do something and then says he never said that. The not arguing with higher-ups is obnoxious but also true. Coming in at 8am isn’t wholly unreasonable (devoid of any context), nor is the boss coming in a little later than the other employees.

      1. Visitor*

        We have a regular meeting at 8 am with the techs and managers who work in the field, twice a week. This manager usually doesn’t attend. Friday is a usual day for my team, I run the meeting but my manager decided he wanted to run the meeting and so I sent everyone an email to make sure they were all in before 8 am, given he gets annoyed when people come in after the meeting started. Most days a team has an early morning meeting, different teams on different days, but he’s usually not involved.

        He left early yesterday so I guess he forgot but the whole ‘let me give you some advice’ thing threw me… first he implied I was lying and then he just wanted to shut the whole thing down be being nasty. I want to avoid this next time cause he does this, he flips and if you don’t just go along with what he is saying NOW it’s a real problem.

        1. Jadelyn*

          The “let me give you some advice” is honestly really pissy of him. Assuming you were keeping your disagreement polite and sticking to facts, a good boss would be willing to listen and hear you out, even if they’re not going to change whatever decision or action you disagree with. He’s not entirely wrong in that knowing when to *stop* pushing back against something from higher-ups is a critical survival skill for the workplace, but a blanket “don’t argue with people higher than you” is BS. Being higher on the corporate ladder does not make someone infallible.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      “Bossman, I’m trying really hard to follow your instructions, but sometimes I get conflicting guidance from you and I’m not sure how to handle it. You also seem to think I’m just being argumentative when I bring you issues like that, but I need your guidance to understand exactly what you want. Can you help me figure out a way to avoid situations like this in the future?”

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        This is absolutely the most professional way to approach the situation, but given his past behavior, I wouldn’t be surprised if he responded badly to even Katie the Fed’s awesome phrasing.

        1. Rabbit*

          My boss is similarly terrible, and when I said something to that effect, he snapped, “You need to communicate more!” and stalked off. Ohhhkay!

        2. neverjaunty*

          Yes. Katie the Fed’s phrasing is as good as it is possible to be, but gaslighting jerks don’t respond to ‘good’ and ‘sensible’.

          There is nothing you can do except get out from under this boss, ultimately, either by leaving the company or a lateral transfer.

    3. KG*

      I think you take these situations as ‘from now on I will always put it in the calendar, I will always confirm’. Basically, you’re learning CYA (covering your ass) techniques to avoid this going forward. If he’s someone that won’t say, oh right I forgot sorry, and will instead blame you, you have to start documenting things in emails, and simply doing that extra step even if it’s ‘not required’.

      1. Visitor*

        That’s what I was figuring. Knowing him he may get mad at that, since he told me not to confirm in this instance but I think it’s better than doing nothing. Thanks.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Never ask if he wants you to confirm. Just do it. If he gets pissy about that, tell him the confirmation is helpful FOR YOU to make sure YOU understood his directive clearly.

    4. BRR*

      In the future for this specific situation I would just say “Will do. I’ll add you to the meeting.”

      The second part is slightly concerning. If this is their typical behavior I might go so far as to consider looking for another job.

    5. CM*

      Next time, don’t ask, just put it on his calendar.
      Similarly, if there’s some other followup action that you think makes sense, just do it without asking for permission.

    6. Catalin*

      Yikes, this is a tough one. There are two problems here: your boss dislikes that he is forgetful and either there’s a communication breakdown or he doesn’t trust you.

      1) Busy people forget things. It’s just true. It helped me to get a notebook and write EVERYTHING important in it, but at the executive level, people are often too busy to properly mentally process. If your boss was okay with this, he wouldn’t mind (and would likely welcome) appointment notes, invitations, emails to confirm, whatever floats his boat. It might help you if you used phrases like, “I must have misunderstood, I thought …” or “When we discussed this Thursday, you mentioned X, are we doing something different/did something change?” DON’T use phrases like, “You said X.” It could be perceived as confrontational and your boss appears to be easily irritated by challenges to his memory (cough, or competency, cough).

      2) Communication is everything and no two people in an office setting communicate exactly alike. Something that works for one person doesn’t always work for another. Techniques that can help: make notes when he’s giving you directions and read them back to him to ensure you’ve got his intended message; once you’ve confirmed the message with him, use an appointment/reminder/whatever written. Don’t stop and ask if he wants the email: he’s going to see that as a small challenge/invitation to argue (remember, he doesn’t like his bad memory and will deny at all cost).

      Now, if your boss were comfortable with his bad memory, that leaves one other possible problem: the trust issue. If he perceives past miscommunications/failures to follow directions, he’s unlikely to give you more control over his schedule. That requires trust. If increasing confident communication can build his trust in you to cover the weakness he’s not comfortable with, then you’ll be on the right track.

      Serving the king is all about adjusting your patterns to accommodate your bosses’ needs. In a great working relationship, the “higher-up” honestly communicates what they need help with and the helper works to meet those needs. Great working relationships involve respect and trust and right now it doesn’t sound like there’s a lot of either of those two going on in either direction.

      I don’t blame you; it sounds like your boss is a bit of an ass but you work for him. Watch your back and approach him with all this in mind. Do not (even passively) ‘confront’ him; it won’t go well for you.

    7. TootsNYC*

      I think next time manager said, “have everyone in at 8am,” I wouldn’t be asking him about emails and calendars; I’d just send them, cc-ing him. And if the purpose was for the manager to meet with the staff, I’d put it on his calendar without asking him.

      as for this time: What was the purpose of 8am? Just for everyone to be there? In which case, nobody should be saying to him, “hey, you made all of us be here, why weren’t you here?” Just show up and do your jobs. Managers get to do that sort of thing; sorry and all that. It’s sort of unfair, but we do.

      If the manager were the one w/ the keys, and you’d all been standing outside, that’s a little different, of course.

      In the follow-up, you say he wanted to run that meeting. I don’t know what was damaged by him forgetting–it’s a normal meeting, right? And it happened without him, so it really doesn’t matter.
      I think I’d be saying, “I thought you’d wanted to run this meeting. Do you want to run the next one, to make up for it?”
      In other words, be sure my comments weren’t seen as criticism or contradiction; let him save some face. I know what actually happened, and I assume that deep down, he does know.

    8. Karowen*

      I would go with not asking about putting it on his calendar, and instead just do an email CYA. So you have the talk, go back to your desk and write an email saying “Per our discussion, I’m going to have everyone be here at 8am on Friday. Let me know if this changes so I can pass it on!”

    9. Not So NewReader*

      Every conversation can be some how contorted into “arguing with the higher ups”.

      I think this is a weak statement at best. In most cases bosses will end up with employees that just “yes” them to death.

      I am agreeing with others who say to just do it without asking. And I’d like to add one thing that worked for me with a boss like this. In the moment, I would repeat back to him what he just said. “Okay so you want everyone here at 8 on Friday, right?” And he will say yes.
      In my case it would be the next day, “WHAT THE HELL did you do that for?!” Clearly, my boss thought of me as an idiot. Standing firm, I said, “You told me to do it, I repeated it back to you and you said ‘yes, this is what I want you to do’ “. I went on to explain, “It does not matter to me if we do X or do Y. I just want to be on the correct page and doing the correct thing. I want to be a good employee.”

      This worked very well. My coworkers who did not stand firm, did not make out as well. YMMV, use your best judgement.

    10. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I think so far everyone has missed the main point. Next week, no today, *start looking for a new job*! If this behavior is typical, then you need to get the heck out of there if possible.

      I know it will take more than a week to find a job so follow the other peoples’ advice on how the handle the situation if it comes up again. However, please do try and get the heck out of there!

  5. EE Lady*

    I had a manager in the past who wasn’t as hands-on as I would have liked him to be, given my experience level and comfort with the job. Often I would get told to complete a project with little to no supporting information – just a perfunctory “Hey make a rice sculpture of a bridge,” and he runs off to meetings all day. And I’m left to wonder, “Does he want a suspension bridge or more like an arch bridge? Where should I build it? Am I sculpting this out of one grain of rice or thousands? When do I need to do it?” So I was thinking about how to prevent that going forward. (Aside- I think one way to mitigate that is to try to get a firmer handle on what the department’s goals are, which is something I should have made sure I understood at the outset. Let’s pretend I did that.) I would love to see us brainstorm some kind of template of questions to ask to orient yourself any time you get a task handed down without any guidance. There have to be like 4-5 magic questions that will take away 90% of the ambiguity.

    1. Rowan*

      A couple of suggestions:
      “What will this sculpture be used for?” (Is is a demo? A deliverable for a customer?)
      “What goals are we trying to achieve with this sculpture?” (Similar to the above — is it to just prove to ourselves we can do it? Or to show another dept an example of what we can produce? Or is it a learning exercise?)

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think this may have to be a larger discussion you have with him instead of one in the moment. If he really is just running off to meetings right after giving you a project, he’s not going to want to talk about it in the moment. So I would schedule a meeting with him (we know he knows how to go to those) and say “I know you’re in meetings a lot of the time. Sometimes you give me a project to do, and I have follow-up clarification questions. Do you want me to ask you in that moment? Could email you, and would you be able to answer during the meetings you’re in? Do you just trust my judgment?”

      Just be mindful that he may say he trusts your judgment, because he doesn’t want to be bothered (i.e., he may be a terrible manager) but then may later say “Why did you do such-and-such? It obviously should have been this other way!”

      1. LabTech*

        Just be mindful that he may say he trusts your judgment, because he doesn’t want to be bothered (i.e., he may be a terrible manager) but then may later say “Why did you do such-and-such? It obviously should have been this other way!”

        This is what drove me from my last job. I gave my reasoning for using brown rice instead of white rice, both verbally and in our documentation, but I somehow always seemed to choose wrong. Even when I was specifically told to use brown rice the last week, only to be told I should have used white rice this week for reasons that were never given at the start.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yes, it’s infuriating behavior.

          The only other thing is if he really doesn’t want to discuss it, I’d recommend EE Lady just send periodic updates. “I had the choice between white rice and brown rice, and I figure I’ll go with brown rice because X, Y, and Z. If you would prefer white rice, let me know before 3pm today.”

    3. Roman Holiday*

      I had exactly this experience at OldJob! My boss would give me some vague assignment with zero context, then disappear and not respond to emails/questions, then show up and be like, “why haven’t you finished project x?”

      I eventually started asking other colleagues, always with the precursor, “Cersei wants me to do X, but hasn’t specified A, B or C. Do you have any guidance?” It was half looking for help, half CYA, because when she came back, I could say (obviously in more polite, professional terms), “You didn’t answer any of my follow-up questions, and Jon, Robb and Arya don’t know what the H-E-double hockey sticks you were talking about either”. It took me a while to realize that place was toxic, but hey, it was my first job out of college and I learned how to handle a boss like that.

    4. CM*

      1. What is the project and why are we doing it?
      2. What deliverables do you need me to produce? (Insert specific details — for a document, you’d want to know about how long it should be, and whether it’s a formal memo or bullet points)
      3. Who will be using the deliverables and for what purpose?
      4. How should I deliver them to you?
      5. When do you need them and how urgent is it?
      6. Is there anybody else I should talk to or loop in?
      7. Is there any background information that would be useful?
      8. Do you want me to check in with you before finishing this?

      And after you get your questions answered, repeat back, “So you need me to produce a short bullet-point memo about our revenue projections for next quarter. I’ll aim to email a draft to you by Friday, and if I need help I’ll ask Alice in accounting.”

    5. SirTechSpec*

      I think it’s important to have a written spec for anything significant. Set a threshold beyond which you won’t do a project until you have the requestor sign off on the requirements. (Maybe 8 hours of work, or a certain financial cost, or whatever.) This should be standard practice at an organized company, but if not, you’ll have to do it on your own. Generalizing from your questions above, I would say the minimum points to cover are:
      -Justification (“Why are we doing this?” Not because your boss has to justify herself to you, but because that’s key to understanding how to do it correctly.)
      -Goals/Outcome (“What exactly will we have when we’re done that we don’t have now?”)
      -Budget/Resources (“How much should I put into this?” If there’s a financial cost I dearly, dearly hope that’s already given to you, but you also don’t want to spend a week on something if your boss wanted a 1-hour mockup.)
      -Timeline (“When do you need it by?”)

      Note that while this sounds extreme, it can be a way to do most of the work for them – if your boss is vague, draw up your best guess. It also doesn’t have to be called a Project Plan if that’s not your style – it can just be an e-mail saying “Okay, I can spend the next three days making a 5′ arch bridge to go in the atrium, to make it more welcoming in time for the architect’s convention next week. It’ll probably take about $100 worth of rice, and be sturdy enough to last out the week. Can you confirm that this is what you had in mind, or is there anything I should do differently?” The smaller the request, the shorter and more informal the requirements can be, but you need to know what you need to know.

      1. Honeybee*

        Yes, and that spec can be the “something done” I mean in my comment below. Sometimes my manager will ask me to do something with very few guidelines, and I’ll write a one-pager or an outline framing the project and bring it to her for feedback before I do anything significant.

    6. Honeybee*

      I think it depends on the job and your relationship with your manager – I agree that asking all of the questions that people specified already are the best way to go, but honestly, if you don’t have time or your manager dashes out before you can answer them, I just start on the project and get something done. Like if I’m asked to write a description of X for the website and I have no idea what the website looks like, who it’s intended for, or how long the description is supposed to be…I write something and show it to my manager. Then she gives me feedback on whether she wants more, less, what she wants to change, etc. Sure, it probably would’ve saved time if I had had that information up front, but…*shrug* I don’t!

  6. Motivation slipping*

    Last month both I and a colleague on my team were offered promotions by our manager (director of the department we work for), which we accepted. Then last week, the director told us our promotions were being revoked because the C-level of our department is going to promote a different coworker to a senior leadership position. When we asked if our promotions would be available again, we were told not this year. I asked about a raise and was told that all of the raise money allotted to our team was going towards this coworker’s senior leadership promotion.

    The person being promoted to senior leadership has been a problem for everyone else on the team. He disappears for hours at a time and misses key meetings during his disappearance (like our weekly team status meeting), then sends long rambling emails to the whole department about how we keep him in the dark. He’s been rude and condescending to all of us at some point. He does not complete a majority of his work, which has left the team in a lurch countless times. Both the director and C-level were aware of the issues we had with him.

    My colleague and I are feeling demoralized. She and I have been asked to work through the weekend for the next 3 weeks on a high-profile project, but we’re having trouble staying motivated to go above and beyond like we used to. She says if the company promotes low performers then there’s no reason for us to bust our asses for them. She suggests asking for a bonus and then refusing to work through the weekends if they say no. This doesn’t seem like a smart move, but at the same time, I am bitter about how this is turning out and not happy about the prospect of losing my weekends when it won’t benefit me in the long run.

    1. Muriel Heslop*

      Okay, this sounds awful. I’m so sorry. It’s so frustrating to work with a poor performer, but to see him promoted would demoralize me, too! I wish I had some good advice (other than job hunting and making the best of the situation while you are in it.)

      1. Honeybee*

        Not only to see him promoted over you but ALSO to find out that your ENTIRE team’s raise pot has been used to give him a promotion. That is some really terrible management right there.

    2. Ann Furthermore*

      Man, that really sucks. In your position I would start looking for a new job. They have made it pretty clear how much they value you.

    3. Temperance*

      Are both you and your coworker female?

      I would absolutely start looking for a new job, ASAP. Your coworker is right that they aren’t going to reward you. I would talk to your boss, together, about the revocation.

      1. Motivation slipping*

        Yes, we are both female. And both have been in our jobs longer than the newly promoted coworker, who was at the same level as us before the promotion. I didn’t want to turn it into a gendered thing but it might play a part.

        1. Temperance*

          And he didn’t put in all this extra time that you did, and didn’t try very hard, and yet still received a promotion over you both? That’s … absolute sexist BS.

          Maybe I’m petty, but I would make it a Thing that since Lazy is a manager now, he needs to do that weekend work. Something SUDDENLY came up.

        2. neverjaunty*

          If it walks like a boys’ club, talks like a boys’ club, and promotes incompetent jerks like your co-worker like a boys club…. then you’re not the one turning it into a gendered thing.

          I mean, look, this isn’t a situation where you just feel like you work harder than Fergus, or higher-ups have no idea what a pain he is. If they know about his problems AND they’re promoting him, then it’s because they irrationally favor him for some reason. You cannot get ahead at a company like this, period, full stop. You can only get out.

          See how well they do with their buddy Fergus when you aren’t there covering for him.

          1. Doriana Gray*

            So much this. Not to mention, even if they hadn’t promoted this guy, revoking two employees’s promotions at the last minute is a really shitty thing to do to people. I wouldn’t want to work for people like that.

      2. ThursdaysGeek*

        That’s my question too. If so, it reminds me of a previous job, although my male co-worker was a really good worker and certainly deserved the promotion. But it was clear to us all that they wanted the male coworkers and didn’t want me. I got my revenge, however: I asked them if they wanted to be working for a company that would treat people like that, and then we all found new jobs.

    4. Isben Takes Tea*

      This sucks. I can’t believe they would pull offered promotions and then tell you it’s because of another employee. That just seems like horrendous management.

      In a recent letter, Alison pointed out the unprofessionalism of refusing to do work (even “above and beyond”) if a requested bonus is turned down. If you’re not going to go the extra mile, that’s one thing, but you can’t use a denied bonus as a reason.

      Of course, if this is how the company acts, then you have the reasonable choice of not going the extra mile or looking for another job.

      1. Tex*

        If you are demotivated, then you two can certainly use a passive aggressive move by claiming to be burnt out and not able to work on the weekends.

        The point will be made. Unsaid, but definitely made.

    5. LawCat*

      Time to start job searching. Your company has communicated to you loud and clear just how much they really value you. And it isn’t much.

    6. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      This is a time when I would put my head down, do what needs to be done…all while telling my contacts that I am actively looking for a new position.

      Hopefully you can find motivation in finishing out strong and moving on to a new position.

    7. Sunflower*

      Ouch this Sucks. What does your director say about your issues with this guy? How did she seem when she told you about the promotions being revoked? Did she seem sorry or blase about it? I think anything you do is just putting a band aid on a bullet hole and while that might be the solution for right now, I don’t think you can long term work here.

      I would tell her that you have plans for these weekends and see what happens. Stick firm to it. If she presses you, I would ask for comp time or PTO. And I would 100000% be looking for a new job. I’m so sorry. This really really realllyyy sucks

      1. Motivation slipping*

        Director seemed sorry and I don’t think she agrees with this other coworker getting promoted but her hands are tied.

    8. BRR*

      Your company or manager or c-level person sucks. Promotions should be finalized before being announced broadly. I wouldn’t either ask for a raise or refuse to work. But I would definitely point out how working three weeks straight is extreme. If it’s not too late, I’d try and say you have plans for something.

      I hope they realize that not only did they just lose two employees, they lost two employees were who doing well enough for a promotion.

      1. Observer*

        I’d say all three stink. Even the manager’s hands are really tied about the promotion, she still didn’t handle the situation well.

        As for the rest, I agree completely.

    10. TootsNYC*

      That’s shitty

      It’s especially shitty that they told you why–though, if the message had just been, “The company has changed its mind about how to structure this,” you’ve probably still resent the guy.

      Time to job hunt! And I hope you find something else good really, really soon, so the cause-and-effect is clearly visible. Plus, this is a cause-and-effect that you ought to feel comfortable sharing with your manager and w/ HR in any exit interview opportunities.

      And when you have those conversations, point out that you were a good enough employee to be promoted, so they have truly lost someone good–someone who -would- have stayed and been freshly energized by the promotion.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. I understand. This is like going through the work day with concrete blocks strapped to your ankles.
      Try, try, try to remember that you are still you. And they cannot take that away from you. No matter what crappy thing they think of next, you still have you, a creative, resourceful individual. That creativity, resourcefulness is still there, it’s just napping right now. Wake it up and tell it “let’s go!”
      I call it a form of grace under fire. What do we do when the company craps on us? One thing that has helped me is to picture myself writing my resume. What cool thing can I do at work that would look good on my resume? This kind of makes me get into action regardless of what others are doing.
      Another thing is I think about the fact that I have to live with myself. I have to know that UNLIKE the company, I was fair/reasonable. I stop being fair/reasonable, then the company wins, not me, because I lost a part of myself.
      It’s a one in a million long shot, but someone could be watching you now to see how you handle things. In ten years, you could find out, “I saw you handle that unfair situation and I saw how you carried yourself. I want you to work here with me.” Then you find yourself with a fancy job in a good company.

      The problem in these settings is that we tend to look down in discouragement. And what we need to do is look up and look around. I had one job where I went to work with my notice typed out and in my purse for WEEKS. I kept it in my computer and changed the dates every morning. Yesss, I did this. But it really helped me to think about a bigger picture rather than the little cruddy corner I was in at the moment. Knowing that I could just reach in my purse and hand that notice in caused to me really think things through and be strategic in as many ways as possible.

      1. Temporarily anonymous*

        Not So NewReader, that’s really useful for me right now. Thank you!

        And Motivation Slipping, you have my sympathy. I hope you and your colleague both start searching for new jobs and find much better ones!

      2. Someone Else*

        This is such a timely comment for me. In the last six months, I’ve been misled into accepting a demotion (they said I would remain mid-range, but instead I’m now topped out for salary), had plum assignments dangled in front of me as bait but then been stuck with assignments that set me back to where I was five years ago on my career trajectory, and now I’m 3 months late on my review and it looks like I won’t get one at all. I’ve been going back and forth for weeks — should I quit? Should I hang in there? I love my coworkers! But the bosses have (apparently) gone bonkers! I’ve been working on my resume but just can’t decide whether or not to move on. Is this malevolence, or simply managerial incompetence? I wish I knew. I’ve gone from being a senior level person who was well respected to persona non grata and I’m not sure why.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Ugh. You know sometimes when we feel painted into a corner, we have the most freedom, as in “nothing left to lose. it cannot get worse”. I would whip myself up to either find out what is wrong or just plain make a plan to leave. Do one or the other. Out of respect for yourself do not allow yourself to languish.

          Do you have a trusted cohort that you can talk with? Do you see others around you have large difficulties also?

          I worked one place where your setting would be described as “off the radar”. Once a person was off the radar, they were stuck where they were at for the duration of their employment. You could fall off the radar for wearing the wrong color socks or similar error.

          I am not sure that loving your coworkers is a strong enough reason for staying at a job. I tend to vote in favor of not allowing yourself to stagnant. They wanted you there, now they seem to NOT want you there. That probably stands alone as a good reason to move forward with your life/career.

    12. Anon Accountant*

      This is so awful. I recommend start looking for a new job, complete the project as it adds value to your résumé, and get a great job offer.

      This is such a cluster of poor management and their actions don’t make sense.

    13. Observer*

      So there are a lot of idiots here. The person in the C-Suite, for one. Your manager for another. But you don’t need anyone to tell you that. But, you’re instinct about your co-worker’s idea is right on. It’s a REALLY bad idea, and could get you fired.

      Your company has told you a lot about itself and how it rewards good behavior with this mess. Your best bet is to start looking for a new job. Make that your motivation to to excellent work – you want anyone a prospective employer talks to, to speak about you in the most glowing terms.

  7. Anon for this*

    Does accepting a promotion mean you have to stay on a certain amount of time? How would a healthy work environment handle such a discussion?

    I’ve been at my company for several years. During my performance review in January, my boss noted that due the company’s changing needs and my great performance they would like to retool my current job description and promote me into a higher level role, but that I need to decide if I really want to stay in the organization for another two years or if I think I’d want to leave before they’d move forward. He did not ask for an answer on the spot, but I’ve felt panicked ever since.

    Since the role will be new, I am not sure if I’d want it (I really don’t have enough information on responsibilities, pay, etc.), but I’m not sure how to handle this situation. I would love to be honest with my manager and say, if it’s the case, that I’m ready to move on or even that I’m not sure, but we do not have that kind of culture. My boss can be very vindictive and takes everything personally. I’ve seen him treat other staff poorly when they leave the organization. The only person I’ve seen leave on good terms (according to my boss) gave 3+ months notice and was leaving for grad school and therefore wasn’t seen as choosing another employer over my boss.

    If I say that I’m thinking of leaving, I fear I would be totally marginalized, but I don’t want to have to lie either. How can I protect my reputation and do right by my employer without screwing myself over? Beyond forgoing the title/salary bump for as long as I’d still be in my current job, I fear I would end up doing a lot the same things this new job entails anyway (I am more or less the only person in my area and the work needs to get done). Perhaps that’s the other reason I’m upset. My organization does not offer much professional development (we all just learn on the fly/are self taught) and does not have a well-thought out system for advancement or recognizing contributions, so we end up taking on huge new responsibilities for months and months before ever getting more pay or a better title. Promotions are granted as if our employer is doing us a huge favor and it’s almost irrespective of how much we are doing for the company.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Does accepting a promotion mean you have to stay on a certain amount of time? How would a healthy work environment handle such a discussion?

      No, it doesn’t mean you’re committing to anything. Are you in the U.S.? If so, almost every state has at-will employment. You aren’t legally committing to anything.

      I need to decide if I really want to stay in the organization for another two years or if I think I’d want to leave before they’d move forward.

      My boss can be very vindictive and takes everything personally. I’ve seen him treat other staff poorly when they leave the organization.

      You’ve got your answer right here. No matter how ethical you try to be, your boss is never going to take well your leaving, even if you leave after two years. You’re not planning to leave right now, right? So just say you’re committed to staying for two years. If a better opportunity comes up before the two years is up… well, you didn’t know about that better opportunity at the time. For all you knew, you were going to stay for two years. This isn’t a legally binding contract or a marriage commitment. And your boss is a jerk, so what does it matter?

      1. TootsNYC*

        “You’re not planning to leave right now, right? So just say you’re committed to staying for two years.”

        I might not say I was “committed to staying for another two years.”

        I’d say, “I’m very happy here and have no thought of leaving. The idea of taking on a greater role is really rewarding, and this vote of confidence would be a reason to stay.”

        Same message, but you don’t have a number attached to the word “committed.” Boss may not remember the parsing of the semantics, but he also might remember a number attached to the word “committed.”

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I don’t know. This boss sounds like a jerk, so I don’t think it will really matter what phrasing you use. I can totally see him, even if you phrase it correctly, yelling “Anon for this said she’d be here for two years at least! She promised!”

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      That’s not how a healthy company works. Investment in training, promotions, or task reassignment is par for the course for any role at any time, and they should be prepared for people to come and go.

      As long as you are not signing a contract, you are under no legal or moral obligation to remain in the role any longer than you choose. You can’t ask them to commit to not firing or further changing your role for the next two years, and it is unreasonable for them to do the same to you.

      If what is necessary to get the promotion is to verbally commit, then do it without guilt, and accept that you will need to cope ahead for a short (two-week max, don’t get suckered in for longer) notice period with a vindictive boss if you do leave. If he’s mad about it, it’s his own fault.

    3. Sunflower*

      Take the promotion. You have to. If you reject it, you’re basically saying ‘I quit’ with no job lined up- esp based off the previous reactions of people moving on from your company. Unless you sign a contract, there is nothing legally binding you to do anything.

      No one can predict the future. You might start job searching today and not find something for 2 years(believe me it happens) Your job could not even be there in 2 years(not saying there is any indication this will happy but you never know!) It sounds like even if you finished out the 2 years, your company would not take you leaving well.

      Even in healthy orgs, I feel this is still a loaded topic. Even if you want to stay and are just not interested in more work, it can still cast a shadow over you. The idea of letting your boss know your job searching is an ideal but only happens in pretty rare cases from what I’ve seen. Take the promotion and keep job searching.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think that part of deciding to stay on for two years is deciding to make a go of it no matter what happens. I have been in jobs where I could do this. And I have been in jobs where I knew for a fact that my determination was NOT working at all.

        It sounds like your boss is going to be jerk no matter what you do and no matter how you play your cards. I think I would be inclined to take the promotion and job hunt like crazy.
        He goes on a rant when you give notice, it’s the last rant you will ever have to listen to from him. If it’s a given that he will rant no matter what, then you have to pick what works best for you.

  8. Katie the Fed*

    Oh boy! I’ve been really excited for this week’s open thread!

    So…got to have a little karmic justice yesterday. Years ago when I was a young peon, I had a boss two level’s up who was just a jerk and a buffoon. He made decisions capriciously that negatively impacted my career (in the way he went about giving out promotions in a very dodgy way), and said/did things that I should have reported him for. Like….very sexist things. But I was young and didn’t know how to stand up for myself. If he had just treated me with basic decency I wouldn’t have minded about the promotions. But he was such a jerk.

    He ended up going off to an organization for a while, as I moved up and became confident and more respected. Well, my current boss is leaving and this guy apparently applied for his job. So current boss and HIS boss asked me if knew him and what I thought. And I gave them a very detailed description of the things he said and did, and my professional but unvarnished opinion on the effect he would have if he came to our organization. And it pretty much tanked his prospects.

    I normally wouldn’t feel good about this, but he’s such an awful person and we dodged a major bullet on him. But it just goes to show that even the low level peons you mistreat might come back some day and get a vote on YOUR career, so it’s probably best to treat everyone with respect.

    4. Cube Farmer*

      Well done!

      I had a very similar situation with a boss that, among many other things, screamed, slammed doors, and fired me for giving notice of resignation. My lack of recommendation was key to him not getting a job at a job I had years later.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      But it just goes to show that even the low level peons you mistreat might come back some day and get a vote on YOUR career, so it’s probably best to treat everyone with respect.

      I’m so glad this worked out. I wouldn’t even call it karma necessarily as natural consequences. I really hope all annoying people get to feel those natural consequences. One of my biggest work pet peeves is people who kiss up to their work superiors and treat their work subordinates (or peers) like dirt.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        YES! He was like that too, and then the person he was sucking up to retired. That’s how he ended up leaving for a while. Oh god, what an asshole. I just wish he knew it was me that did it!

          1. Emmie*

            Congrats, @Katie the Fed! Although the experience was awful, you did a great service to your organization by avoiding this man.
            @Tex: I have an old boss who – if she ever applied for a job at my org – I would call her in for an interview at 11 am, so she’d have to use up an entire day of PTO. I would never actually do that, but it was a fun joke when her short-comings were fresh.

    8. Mimmy*

      LOVE this!! Not the same, but for some reason, it makes me think of the letter a week or two ago about the Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde employee. I hope HE gets his karma! :)

        2. hermit crab*

          Hufflepuff unite! And by unite, I mean, let’s go sit quietly somewhere and have some cocoa, shall we? 10 points to Hufflepuff!

    10. Florida*

      Great story. The only thing that would make this story more satisfying is if the jerk somehow found out that his past actions are what ruined it for him.

    15. Undine*

      Ooh, I have a karmic justice story. I am a teapot pourer and a while ago we were hiring for another teapot pourer on my team. We got a resume from someone who a few years earlier had been director of teapot pouring at Cloud Teapots and who wanted to go back to an individual contributor (this is common in teapot pouring). Right before she came in, I was looking over her resume and thought — wait, I know a couple people who’d worked at Cloud Teapots, and they really hated their director — could it be her? So I emailed my contacts and got back a response from one that said something like “She is a racist manipulative creep. Run the other way when you see her.” My contact then went into details. By the time I heard this, the candidate was literally in the office, so my boss said to go ahead and interview her, but there was no way she was getting the job. And we eventually hired someone we really like.

      So karma can be visited at a distance as well. If you’re bad enough that people complain about you, word does get around.

      1. Katie the Fed*

        It started that way. Didn’t end that way. I tried to be diplomatic and then just let it all out!

    18. neverjaunty*

      Personal dislike aside, you did a good thing. He’s a bad boss, he’s a bigot, and nobody needs that kind of grief in management.

  9. Folklorist*

    ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!! What have you been putting off? I dare you–DARE YOU, I say–to go do it and report back.

    1. ExceptionToTheRule*

      I’m putting off writing up a proposal for a new job description for myself that would be a promotion. No idea why except that the idea of detailing everything I do all day and trying to expand on it is exhausting…

    2. Bunny Purler*

      Uhhhh… this is so weirdly appropriate that I read it and just flinched slightly. I am putting off a couple of fairly chunky things which need to be finished before the end of the day, and I am… well, I’m on AAM. You’re right! I will go and get cracking, then report back!!

    4. Mallory Janis Ian*

      I’m backed up on processing some purchasing paperwork, so I’m going to spend the morning working through my “To Be Processed” folder instead of reading on AAM. I’ll be back after lunch!

      1. Catalin*

        New open thread idea: things we should have been doing instead of being here during the work day. Soooo guilty!

    5. Adam*

      I just moved a week ago. I still need to change my address on nearly everything. It’s my goal to do today and if I get it done I get to buy a new chair for my TV room.

    6. Me2*

      Closed my business two weeks ago (for a good reason) and have to be out of my leased space by tomorrow. I have 99.5% of it cleared out and I’m totally procrastinating the last 0.5%.

    7. Tau*

      The fact that 50% of the time I see these when I’m on the train really works against me here…

    8. Ellie the EA*

      Need to call online cheap flights site to finish the “fight” about why I shouldn’t have to pay the change fee to rebook our tickets (husband needed emergency heart surgery for goodness sake!) But we need to use them now to fly for his father’s funeral… (sigh, yeah it’s been a rough 9-months)

      Wish me luck.

    9. SL #2*

      I have several legal-type things to be working on… I’ve template-tized everything already so it’s just a matter of copy/paste, but I’m still putting it off!

    10. Shishimai*

      I imported a rice sculpture design into the notoriously difficult and unstable RiceCAD tool that we haven’t yet managed to replace.

      It goofed it up, because of course it did. But it gave me enough to pull into the less difficult and unstable internal tool; and that’s all I need in the first place.

      Today is going to be a whole lot of manually moving rice grains around.

    11. White Mage*

      Creating landing pages for some of our products. I’ll work on it for like 5-10 minutes, get bored and do something else, then maybe get back to it. I don’t have a deadline (and even if I did it wouldn’t matter if I didn’t meet it) so I have no motivation.

    12. TeaCozy*

      Ugh, it’s my last day and I’m procrastinating on the one phone call I HAVE to make, because I’m so tired of phone calls…

      (I don’t even make that many, I just have issues with phones and I avoid using them whenever possible.)

    14. JJtheDoc*

      Woot! Just successfully booked 3 different appointments for my Mom, who just moved to my area. She’s elderly, no longer drives, and it is dang difficult to find medical providers who will accept Medicare patients. But..challenge accepted and done!!

    15. Elizabeth West*

      Hey, I’m eating lunch! :)

      I got caught up when I came in this morning–I had stuff from yesterday because I was at an administrative assistants’ conference all day. But I do have to write a blog post.

    16. ActualName*

      I started doing my laundry. Funnily enough I had the second pair of jeans in my hands when my text to speech got to this comment in the thread. :)

      I’ll also hopefully write some today, or work on sketching out a little comic story.

    18. BananaKarenina*

      Writing cover letters for high school teaching positions – and trying to revise my resume for non-educator jobs. Burnout from the last couple of teaching assignments is a huge factor. But, it’s tough to transition into other sectors or fields after being in the classroom. Trying to do it alone (not by choice) has set me further back.

  10. Ack Ack*

    So I’ve had 3 interviews, all very positive, at an organization I’m really interested in. They asked for references yesterday. Do you think it’s ok to ask what the salary range is at this point? They’ve been great throughout the process in all other respects. I’ve never negotiated salary before because I’ve worked in the public sector/been desperate the other times I’ve gotten job offers. I’m definitely going to negotiate, but should I wait for an offer or can I ask now?

    1. Amy*

      I’d definitely wait for an offer – at that point you have the bargaining power because 1) you know what their initial number is and 2) you know they want you. The exception would be if they bring it up first, or if you have non-negotiable salary requirements that they might not meet, and you don’t want to waste your references time if it’s not a good fit. But if it doesn’t seem like they’ll bring it up to the offer, then yes, go ahead and wait. Once you know their number you can come back with a “Thank you for the offer, I’m really excited about this opportunity because X, but I was hoping compensation would be more like $Z. Is there any way we can get closer to that?” Where Z is what you want + some percentage, since you know they’ll negotiate down. Good luck, hope you get the offer!

      1. Ack Ack*

        I do have a lower floor for salary, and I am a little concerned they might not meet it, so I think I will ask for the ballpark range. After 3 interviews they must know I’m curious, right?? Their glassdoor reviews say that the pay is low, although I think they are talking about positions very different from what mine would be. I’m also not desperate. I’d happily stay in my current job if that’s how it worked out.

    2. KR*

      I think it’s definitely okay to ask for the salary range at least. You have to know if it’s worth it for you to continue with the application. They should be okay with this – people work for money.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Well for starters, asking for the salary range and negotiating are two separate things. Yes, ask for the range now. You want to make sure you’re in roughly the same ballpark before either party continues to spend time engaging the interview process — and before you ask your references to spend their time, as well.

      If the range is something makes you still interested in the job, you can negotiate it at the offer stage.

    4. Fabulous*

      If the salary range isn’t listed in the job posting and they haven’t asked what range you’re looking for, I’d recommend mentioning it in the first interview. That way you know if it’s even worth it for you to continue with the process.

      2. Audiophile*

        The job I currently have didn’t list a salary and didn’t mention during my interview. (I was only interviewed once.) I didn’t get any indication until an offer was made. It was low and so I eventually negotiated up.

  11. Zahra*

    I need your insights! I’m starting a new job on Monday and I’m a little bit afraid: I lost my last two jobs (one last August and one this February) because of symptoms tied to ADHD (procrastination, errors due to inattention and the like). I’m in a field where you are expected to work autonomously, with deliverables that may be weeks in the future. However, with ADHD, it’s hard for me to do work that requires effort over a longer period of time. Add in the fact that I never had to work to get very good grades pre-college, and I’m really in a bad position. I NEED to get to that level of autonomy and organization.

    I started back on medication last summer (I had stopped while pregnant 5 years ago and didn’t realize how much ADHD affected me at work). I also started using more tools to help me out (StayFocusd is really great to stop me from procrastinating on the internet). And, just this week, I started seeing a professional to get a better handle on this. I should start to see results fairly quickly (as in, within a month).

    I don’t want to lose my job, but I don’t want to disclose my ADHD to my new boss right now if I can avoid it. I’m afraid it would impact his opinion of me (as a professional) negatively. I know I have the law on my side, to a point.
    Anyone got tips on how to manage the situation? Hopefully, I’ll have better strategies to mitigate the (negative) symptoms of ADHD soon, the psychologist said 2-3 months of CBT (once a week) usually yielded the kind of results I’m looking for.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Hopefully you’ll have a discussion with your boss about his expectations when you start. At that point I think you could tell him a little about how you work best, and maybe include some insights that will help him communicate with and manage you best. Like “I’ll definitely work around the culture here, but I do really well with weekly check-ins with my supervisor” or something like that.

      Congratulations on the new job!

    2. Willow*

      That depends what you’re looking for from your boss. Do you just want him to cut you slack while you’re adjusting to your new job? Or are there specific accommodations that would be helpful to you?

      1. Zahra*

        I’d like a little bit of slack while I’m adjusting to the new job and getting the help I need. Not sure if it’s a realistic expectation.
        As far as specific accommodations go, I think regular check-ins would be good, and maybe some way of checking I’m still on track (time and/or content) partway through a project.

    3. my two cents*

      I was finally diagnosed with mild add last year, at 31. I had apparently managed it for years, but when something still wasn’t right I made the call and the Dr. put me on non-stimulant Straterra. It’s freaking life-changing having that last 20% of the symptoms addressed.

      In dealing with the not-yet-diagnosed symptoms, I had come up with a number of personal work-arounds to help minimize impact as I had become quite the plate-spinner to appease my wandering focus.
      1. List any to-do items on a giant whiteboard, and cross them off (not erase) as you complete them. I always kept a running list of whatever projects I was trying to juggle to satiate my compulsion to jump around. Leaving the items crossed-off helped keep me from panicking about not remembering if I had completed something.
      2. Flag emails in your inbox if you need to follow-up on it later. This was another way of creating a ‘list’ to work from each day. It’s easy to forget to follow-up if you don’t receive a response to signal moving forward or it doesn’t otherwise wouldn’t impact your other tasks and wouldn’t come up.
      3. Remember to not interrupt people, even if they’re talking waaaay tooooo sloooow. I inhale very slowly through my nose while someone is talking to help me concentrate and listen, and keep me from jumping in too soon.
      4. Emotional outbursts can be a problem. AAM’s advice about remembering that most people aren’t mean, they’re just thoughtless, really helped me frame-up irritating situations that would happen. Actively work on keeping your face and body language neutral with a close friend or SO who will be willing to tell you when you still ‘look’ like a particular emotion.
      5. Be sure you have a good contact (SO, close friend, Dr.) that will let you walk-through and vocalize your feelings or concerns. One of my biggest personal add symptoms was compulsory empathy – I needed to know how everyone else felt, and in turn felt that everyone should know how I felt. It’s OK to feel anxious, worried, or frustrated – but the tendency for add/adhd folks is to over-share with others, which isn’t right for the work place.

      1. Zahra*

        1- To-do list: I do it, but I’m not consistent in doing it. I’m getting better at it, though.
        2- Inbox: I file away everything that’s been done and keep the to-dos and current FYIs in my inbox. I clean it up regularly.
        3- Interruptions: yup, and I’m working on listening to understand instead of listening to answer. Basically, being present and attentive to what the other person is saying.
        4- Emotional outbursts: Yup, not much of a poker face here. My verbal language is good, but my non-verbal may need some work.
        5- Having an outlet: I think this will be the psychiatrist for now. Would having a journal help (as teenage-sounding as it is)?

        1. my two cents*

          A journal certainly help between your Dr. visits, if for nothing more than to be able to recall the other specifics around the event – as opposed to only remembering how you felt or only the negative details when recalling it later. I find it really useful to force myself to think of the root cause for why I’m reacting emotionally, instead of focusing on the isolated event – Is it a pattern of them using a bad tone, and it sours whenever they talk to me even if the request is reasonable? Do I know they should be able to do this themselves? Am I irritated that our boss didn’t plan this correctly to begin with, and now I bristle whenever it comes up? Is there stuff at home that’s causing an emotional or anxious undertow?

          I also keep a large notebook near my phone so I can jot notes as someone else is speaking over the phone. It keeps my hands busy, which in turn helps me listen more effectively. Also, should they call again or if the issue crops up for someone else, you now have a chronological log and you can just flip back until you find it. I’ll also often stand while on a call to keep from fidgeting with stuff around my desk or browsing the internet while someone yammers on.

    5. Juli G.*

      I’m inclined to say that if there are specific accommodations you need, ask for them. If I understand the timeline right, you’ve lost two jobs in less than a year because of your symptoms. That’s a lot of job change. If there are reasonable requests you can make, you should.

      I understand your worries and they’re fair if you have an unreasonable/unethical boss. However, your other bosses presumably did not know about your ADHD and they didn’t view as professional enough to keep you on.

      Use your legal rights and gain some stability!

      1. Zahra*

        I forgot to say: it’s a 6-month contract, with a possibility of renewal. After the renewal, there’s a good chance the position will become permanent. I feel quite a bit more pressure to perform at a high level since it’s a temporary position.

    6. BRR*

      Hopefully I can provide some tips as I have ADD and lost the two and only professional jobs I’ve had.
      -Get treatment. Nothing was going to change without getting some help (and you’re already doing this)
      -To do lists. My list is to the point where it can feel overwhelming but it’s really just that everything is written down. It’s not enough to write it in a notebook because I will not find everything in the archives of the notebook.
      -Reminder alarms
      -For bigger/longer projects, I break it up into small projects.
      -Keep some tasks for when I need a break from something else

    7. Not So NewReader*

      It sounds like a number of tools in the tool box are necessary here.
      Can you tell yourself that tasks are not optional and if they appear optional that is only an illusion. Then use what happened at your previous jobs as proof that tasks are not optional.

      I do not have ADD, but I have been through times where I was tired and just. did. not. wanna do. anything. Sometimes I had to scare the crap out of myself to get myself on track. “This is due on Tuesday and if I do not have it done, the ceiling will fall in on me and it will totally rain on me.”

      It’s not a tool to be used all the time. I used it when nothing else was working on that day.

      Does getting stuff done give you a sense of accomplishment? Some people feel very good about completing something. Or maybe a reward system such as you finish x and then you can have that candy/fruit/whatever stashed in your desk drawer.

      1. Zahra*

        Scaring myself silly will work, when used very sparingly. It’s good to remember it’s an option.

        Getting things done does give me a sense of accomplishment. Having a to-do list full of checked off or crossed off items is great. A reward system can be good too. I just need to figure out a reward that will work (I tend to eat the candy when I’m low on energy, but maybe a “you can order that thing you wanted to buy” reward could work.)

    8. Ad Astra*

      I have ADHD too and have never formally disclosed it to my companies because I’ve never needed to request any accommodations. CBT is supposed to work wonders, and honestly I should really look into it myself. A lot of my success has been finding an environment/position that fit my work style best, which is quite a bit of trial and error. Now I have a job where each assignment as a short deadline, anywhere from 1 hour to 1 day, and that works best for me. That may not be possible in your industry, and it may not even be your preferred work style.

      You may have already seen these tips, but here they are just in case:
      1. Set aside time each morning and afternoon to get organized, make your to-do lists, etc.
      2. Set reminders on your Outlook calendar or on your phone. Anything I’m supposed to do at a given time (take medicine, talk to Cindy about rice bridges, make copies) goes on the calendar with an alert. If there’s no specific time tied to it, I assign a time to it for my own sanity.
      3. Set your own personal/internal deadlines for smaller chunks of each project.
      4. Use a desk calendar (or planner, or whatever works for you) to keep track of all due dates.

      1. katamia*

        I have ADD, too, and reminders have saved me. I also have anxiety issues, and to-do lists increase my anxiety to the point where I actually get less done, but calendar reminders are good for keeping me on track. I set mine up so I get emails, depending on what it is, weeks or days in advance and then also the day before and the day of. I used to constantly forget to submit invoices before I realized I could use calendar reminders, and I haven’t forgotten one since.

        I also agree with finding how you work best. I like having multiple discrete projects at once; if I can’t focus on one, then I can redirect my energy toward working on another. When I only have one thing to do at a time, I waste much more time when I’m having bad focus days because there’s nothing productive I can redirect my energy toward.

        1. BananaKarenina*

          I agree with all of these as well. Having been diagnosed with ADD (and depression-anxiety) within the last couple of years, much later in life, I can now see why some of my jobs have been far more difficult for me than “ordinary” colleagues. These strategies should be helpful to a point for you. Disclosing to my administrators would not work in my favor – yet, ironically, many of my students have 504 plans for their ADHD. And, I echo the #5 item from my two cents. Creating an outside support system (whether CBT, peer support group, Facebook private group, etc.) can also be VERY helpful in alleviating some of the on-the-job challenges. It sucks to go this alone. Please keep us posted.

          *”And, no, Mom, it’s not just ‘job stress’. This is real.”

        2. Zahra*

          Oh, how do you set up reminder emails? I find that simple reminders from Outlook don’t always work for me.

    9. Dynamic Beige*

      While not strictly work related (and maybe better suited to tomorrow), I have been wondering for the past few months if I have some kind of ADD. Largely because when people who have been diagnosed talk about things like procrastination, under achieving in school and other stuff, it sounds way too familiar in a “oh, I thought that was just me” kind of way. One of the things about my work is that it’s really deadline driven. But I find when it comes to doing personal projects, even important ones for my business, I just kind of derpy-derp around. I’ve always put it down to lack of willpower or being lazy or whatever, but I can’t help wondering if that’s not the whole story.

      How do you know you’ve got it? Is there a special test you have to take or something? I’ve been meaning to book an appointment with my GP and ask, but maybe you people have “better” insight as people who have it, what it looks like from the inside.

      1. katamia*

        My psych (who I was seeing for other things) diagnosed me using the DSM-5. They have a list, and if you have enough of the symptoms, you’re considered to have it. That psych diagnosis was enough for me to be able to get an Adderall prescription (from my GP because my psych is an ologist), which helps a lot even though I don’t take it every day.

        Funnily enough, this site was actually what made me bring it up with my psych in the first place. I don’t remember what the comment was, but it was a comment on a post that made me go “Wait, that thing I’ve always had problems with is a sign of ADD? And so is this other thing I’ve always struggled with? Maybe I should bring this up with my psych.” So I did.

        1. Jules the First*

          Can I just say, as someone managing an employee with ADD, that a good manager will want to know? My team member waited three months to disclose it, and I wish he’d told me sooner because it gave me much needed insight into why he does things the way he does. I’m now managing him with slightly different techniques than the rest of the team (everyone else works autonomously, unless they feel they need me; but I check in with Wakeen each morning to help prioritise his to-do list for the day, and he checks in with me at the end of the day because reporting back on what he’s achieved today makes it easier for him to be aware of his distractions).

          He’s also given me a heads up on his personal avoidance habits (ie the things he gravitates to doing when he’s not focused) so I can query him if I spot him drifting off-task.

    10. catsAreCool*

      A couple of things that help me stay off the internet at work – when I’m at work, I only use the internet for work stuff, like googling how to do something for work. And when I’m tempted to do something that’s not about work, I remind myself that the IT staff can probably tell every time I do that.
      I try to save internet fun stuff, like this blog, for lunch and after work.

      I’m not sure why, but making it a 100% stay off fun internet stuff at work seems to work for me.

  12. AcademiaDataNerd*

    This past month, I’ve been in meetings every week to plan other meetings – and those meetings have started this week and will last for THREE MONTHS. Please shoot me.

    On the plus side, it’s for a major application implementation and the technical team has been great to work with. At least they’re providing cookies at these meetings?…

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      I dream of working somewhere that provides… anything… at meetings. Unless someone from the C-suite is involved, you only get that kind of stuff on your first day where I work.

      Enjoy your free donuts, New Hires, you won’t see that again…

      1. AcademiaDataNerd*

        There are many VIPs at these meetings, hence the cookies. Otherwise, no food for the peons!!

      2. Wendy Darling*

        One time a bunch of my colleagues went to a 3-hour meeting that overlapped with lunch with a bunch of directors and VPs. The VPs and directors had their assistants order them lunch and bring it to the meeting… but did not provide food for anyone else.

        I know this because I got really, really angry “OH NO THEY DIDN’T” IMs from multiple people sitting in the meeting when it happened.

      3. Noah*

        My company is the same way. I love when I teach new hire training classes because it means there are bagels in the morning and sandwiches at lunch.

    2. Brett*

      That actually sounds pretty normal for application implementation.
      We have daily 15 minute standup, biweekly demo days, and biweekly sprint planning (including meeting planning), for each major implementation.

    3. hermit crab*

      Cookies for meetings sounds great! I will gladly trade cookies for some of my time. And really, I like meetings because they are hours that I get paid for (and can bill to the client) but don’t have to think during. :)

  13. NASAcat*

    Has anyone seen that deodorant commercial where the young woman is in the bathroom pumping herself up to ask her boss for a raise?

    The first time it was cute, but the second time I saw it I was like, “WTF, why didn’t they at least use a semi-decent pep talk? A powerful pep talk! Doesn’t this hypothetical person read AAM?”

    And why are you bringing up Todd (who has only been there for two years and makes more money than you)? F Todd! Girrrrl, get yourself together! No wonder you need extra strength clinical deodorant. I know it’s just a commercial, but way to portray young women as nervous, bumbling idiots.

    Side note, I got a 12.5% raise a few months ago and this site totally helped with my phrasing. Yay! Thanks, AAM.

    1. Charlotte Collins*

      +10000

      This is exactly what I thought the first time I saw this commercial. And more so every time.

    2. Lily in NYC*

      haha! Although I have to admit, every time I know of that one of my coworkers has asked for a raise by bringing up a coworker who makes more, it works. And not just at this employer; everywhere I’ve worked.

      I do get a kick out of a commercial I’ve seen that implies the reason there were fewer women in high-level roles in the 80s is because of all the hairspray they wore. There’s a scene of two women in a bathroom discussing a great business idea, and then they spray aqua net everywhere and forget what they were talking about. It’s silly but makes me laugh.

    3. Hey Nonny Nonny*

      Yes! My reactions went something like “Woo, reduce pay gap!….waaaait a minute….”

    4. ThursdaysGeek*

      Did you get the raise during a job change or promotion? Or did you manage to convince them your current job was worth more pay?

      1. NASAcat*

        My coworker calls it a promotion, but I think of it more as a internal job change. The skill set is slightly higher. When I got the job offer the manager asked me what my salary expectations were. Our salaries are public (with 6-12 mo delay), so I knew exactly how much Person A and Person B made in the same role. Person A is very experienced and made 30% more than my then current salary. Person B made about 15% less! Ah! I gave a range of 15-25% knowing that my skills were valuable but I was realistic. I was expecting something along the lines of 3-5%. My company says they do up to 25%, but I feel like that is baloney and it has never happened.
        Anyway, the manager said that I couldn’t make more than Person B (uh, okay?) and offered 12.5%. I would have never gotten a raise in Old Position because they felt that everyone in that role should make the same amount of money despite varying qualifications and performance reviews. Glad to know the 1 year experience person with “rarely meets expectations” makes the same as the 5 years + “consistently exceeds”. Great for moral.
        That was long winded. Sorry. Anyway, I know the circumstances (new job/promotion/I deserve it damnit) definitely play into how a raise can come about.

    5. AnotherTeacher*

      I was just talking about this yesterday, but on a different angle. The character looked so young to me, that I thought she was supposed to embody the insecurity of the older woman next to her! Ah…getting older…

  14. VideogamePrincess*

    On Tuesday, I had an amazing second job interview, but I just heard that they will have the answer by next week. But I keep thinking, what’s the hold-up!? Don’t they know I’m amazing?

    1. CM*

      That’s funny… and it reminds me of my recent diet, because I keep thinking “I’ve been eating salad for two weeks straight. Shouldn’t I have lost, like, ten pounds by now?”

      Anyway, I’m sure you are amazing! But, you know, they need to be fair to all the much less amazing people that they had already scheduled before they met you.

      1. VideogamePrincess*

        Haha! :D That’s definitely it. It couldn’t POSSIBLY be because they have to, you know, make a serious decision taking into consideration all the strengths and weaknesses of all their candidates.

    2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      I know the feeling. I had my interview on the 12th. The person who did the interview called my references the following week. When speaking to my references, he spoke me up more than my references did! On April 20th, HR emailed me to do a background check. I am still waiting!

      I know I am on the very short list and I think I am the top candidate. I just don’t know why they haven’t called yet!

      1. VideogamePrincess*

        It turns out that I am competing with an *internal* candidate. :/ So I am one of two top choices, but for reasons of my sanity I am going to pretend like the internal candidate got the job. Assuming that is the case, how can I use the fact that I got really far in a job process, for a position I really like, and use that to get more opportunities? Should I simply take this as an indicator of what jobs I really like? Can I ask the people who gave me the interview to recommend me for similar companies/positions?

    3. VideogamePrincess*

      Oh no, panic is starting to set in. I know they said something about how if they hired me, they’d have to go through a temp agency. What if it’s a money thing!? Should I call Mark and suggest we submit a lower salary? What if it was something my references said? AAAAAH!!!

  15. AnonymousMarketer*

    I just wanted to thank Alison and all the other commenters for all the great advice; I just signed my offer letter for my new job where I successfully negotiated an additional $3k and an extra week of vacation. I don’t think I could have done it without reading through all the negotiation threads. I also am cutting my commute from 2+ hours each way to just 30 minutes so I’m very excited.

    3. AMT 2*

      Congrats!!!! that sounds like a fantastic deal for you (personally, if my commute were over 2 hours each way I’d take a dramatic pay CUT to get down to 30 minutes – but sitting in traffic makes me want to scream after 20 minutes so that’s just how I prioritize…)

    5. hermit crab*

      Whoa, that’s fantastic! Congrats! What are you going to do with all the free time that you are no longer using for commuting?

  16. Amy*

    Did you guys see this article? What are your thoughts? I agree with the main point (hiring practices for software are not optimal) but the whole thing seemed tone deaf to me. Complaining about the 6 recruiting offers & interviews in 4 months and deciding you should just stay unemployed because you can… I think a LOT of people would be ecstatic to have so many recruiters, so many interviews, so many 2nd/3rd interviews, etc.

    https://medium.com/@evnowandforever/f-you-i-quit-hiring-is-broken-bb8f3a48d324#.th2he68mt

    1. VideogamePrincess*

      I know what this guy is feeling. Someone was telling me the other day that actually being able to program is waaaaaaaay down on the list of what you need to get a good job. Looking like you can program is an entirely different skill. But yes, he does come across as slightly tone-deaf, and that may contribute more to his lack of success than he realizes.

      1. VideogamePrincess*

        Also, part of me hopes that such a smart programmer complaining will help the rest of us, so someone like me, with an econ degree, has a better shot at being taken seriously.

    2. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I think looking like you can do anything is key to getting an offer vs actually being able to do whatever it is they want. How many of us have coworkers that could not do what ever it was that needed to be done but said they could in the interview process. That said, I only understood about 1/2 of the words in this post. I’m def not a programmer.

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        I worked with someone who was very skilled in sounding confident and knowledgeable about things that she only had very cursory knowledge of. I mean, she sounded more knowledgeable about things she didn’t know than I ever do about things that I do know. I always wonder how people do that.

    3. Jinx*

      This makes me appreciative of the interview for my current developer role, which consisted of zero technical questions. After being here a couple years, I personally think they could stand to do some technical filtering, but certainly not to the extreme described in the article.

      I don’t think I could write a BFS algorithm off the top of my head anymore – I recall all those tree diagrams from Intro to CS when I was a freshman, but that was six years ago!

    4. Brett*

      The writer does not understand that the goal is not to get the right algorithm, but to be creative and methodical.

      Come up with an algorithm, test it, recognize what is wrong with it (doesn’t work, has memory or speed bottlenecks, etc), tweak the algorithm or try a different one, etc. It sounds like he didn’t even bother to ask why he is implementing an algorithm or what the eventual goal of the algorithm is in the scenario. The closest he came was when he corrected the premise of one of the questions, but apparently did it in a completely confrontational way (I suspect the incorrect premise was built into the question).

      He _thinks_ the goal is to regurgitate textbook “correct” algorithms. He thinks these are college quizzes (almost literally thinks that way given some of the passages in the post), and not an examination into his problem-solving and collaborative workflow.

      In all fairness, this is what you are taught in much of college comp sci. Learn the material, pass the exam, screw communication. There is little enforcement of collaboration in most programs. I actually learned (early on fortunately), that all of the people at the top of the grade lists routinely collaborated anyway and that was a big part of why they were the best performers.

      1. VideogamePrincess*

        I just re-read the part that you mentioned. And looking underneath, he says:
        “Interviews shouldn’t be one-sided battles where a candidate must “prove” themselves in order to get hired.”

        I HAVE heard that the process is flawed, so I sided with him at first, but what is so wrong about having to prove yourself before someone commits to spending thousands of dollars on you? Now it sounds more like he’s a smart man with a communication issue, and that issue is what’s causing him trouble.

        1. Anna*

          I know absolutely nothing about interviewing for a developer job or anything in that realm, so I didn’t understand a lot of what he said about the questions he was asked; however, I definitely know a lot about interviewing and got a really good feel for why he wasn’t getting any offers…

    6. CMT*

      If any hiring managers who rejected him see this, I bet they’re going to be happy they dodged a bullet.

  17. Amy M in HR*

    I’m in early! I posted a few weeks back about revamping my resume and writing a great cover letter thanks to AAM’s advice and applying for a position with a company across the country. I am very pleased to say I was offered an interview! The position has been open for several months and they stated they are waiting for the right person to fill the position, so they are interviewing me in two months, which is when I will happen to be out there on vacation. Beyond excited, it is an amazing company, and although it would mean relocating without my husband (he would follow next year) I am definitely up for moving if they happen to offer me a position there.
    Early days yet…I realize I haven’t even had the interview yet, but I am so thankful for all the great advice AAM offers.

  18. Mensa Pilar*

    I started a new job that is more team oriented than previous jobs I have held. However, I am starting to wonder what the idea of a team really is. The staff on the team are all efficient and hard workers, but my boss seems to have a lot on her plate and is behind quite frequently on projects. At our staff meetings, and even larger organization meetings, she keeps saying WE are behind on XYZ when really she’s the only one that’s behind. It makes us look bad. And..the worst part is, when she’s behind, she asks us to stay late until she’s caught up. She keeps using the excuse that we are behind to justify our staying late. Yet, we sit there browsing the internet until she is done with her her, sometimes until 9pm at night. How can this be dealt with?

    1. Over Development*

      Can you ask what you should accomplish while you are staying? Or what the purpose to you being there was?

      I used to work for someone who was disorganized, constantly late, and always wanted to have meetings — which usually meant me goofing off on my phone while she finally read through the information she was sent weeks previously and worked on projects. It reminded me of having to sit with a child while they did their homework.

      She also used to what until well after the deadline to do her part of projects, which forced me to operate in last minute mode.

      The only thing that ever worked for me was giving her if/then statements, like “if I work on this, then that can’t get done” or “if you miss your deadlin, then…”

    2. Sadsack*

      Are you getting paid for the extra hours? I think it is weird that she does it. Next time, can you ask what specifically she needs you to work on? I’d start the conversation that way and see how it goes. I’d make her explain exactly what she expects me to do, nicely, of course — especially if I am not getting additional pay for those late hours. Maybe she’ll realize that she is being ridiculous asking everyone to stay late.

    3. TootsNYC*

      Can you ask, “What, specifically, can I do to move this forward? Is there some part of this that I can take off your plate for you? Maybe like a sous-chef?”

      And if you can think of anything to suggest, suggest it.

      It sounds like she doesn’t “get” delegating.

  19. EA*

    Hello all –

    I have a question for my closest coworker. She is an EA (woman, early 30s), and supports a VP, who is older (60s) and male. Our office is business casual, and she dresses appropriately, similar to how everyone else dresses. She has been here for 3 years, and always dressed like this. Her boss dresses up more then everyone else, and does not like that the office is business causal. Her boss has requested that she also dress business formal from now on. He says she represents him, and needs to be more dressed up. We have a dress code, and she is meeting it. She tried to go to our boss (admin manager), who just said when your boss wants you to do something you do.

    She is very against this, a new wardrobe would be expensive, and she took this job under the assumption she would be dressing in business causal. I did some googling, and came across some things on the internet (workplace fairness. com under dress and grooming) that say dress codes need to be applied fairly or it is discrimination. I know “Is this legal” gets old around here, but I wanted anyone thoughts? Is this something that our HR dept would be wary of if she went to them? And yes, she is looking for a new job for this (and other reasons).

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think it’s reasonable. She’s an executive assistant – they’re often expected to be a little more polished than the rest of us unwashed masses.

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Yup, this. The EA in our corporate office dresses very formally even though the office, and our company as a whole, has a business casual dress code.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Also – on the discrimination thing. It’s discrimination in the dictionary sense, but not legal. Unless it was due to your coworker being in a protected class, it’s not illegal.

      1. LQ*

        Yes, if the boss had said, “You’re a __protected class__ so you have to dress more formally.” then it would be a problem. But it sounds like he just wants everyone to be more formal so he’s imposing it on the people he easily can.

        1. neverjaunty*

          If the dress code is being applied more harshly to women, or just so happens to be applied more harshly to jobs that are primarly done by women, then the boss might be treading a line.

    3. KR*

      Unless they’re saying that she needs to dress differently because she’s one of 7 protected classes – race, color, religion, national origin, sex, disability, and familial status – it’s not discrimination. The only way I could see this being discrimination is if the boss is mandating that she wear skirts every day because she’s a woman when she wants to wear a pantsuit or something like that. Different employees can be held to different standards. If it were me, I probably wouldn’t be looking for a new job over dress code, but different strokes for different folks.

    4. lulu*

      I don’t think there’s any discrimination going on. It sucks that she wasn’t informed before taking the job though.

      1. EA*

        I mean, I believe it from what I have read on here. It is just that I came across websites saying dress codes need to be applied to all employees evenly, but I guess there is misinformation on the internet.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          If they were enforcing the dress code by sex, race, religion, etc., that would be illegal discrimination. But that doesn’t sound like the case here.

          1. OhNo*

            Out of curiosity – does it become illegal discrimination if they are requiring certain gendered clothing? Like if women are required to wear skirts, pantyhose, or heels, when men are not? Or is there some leeway in the law to allow for things like that?

            (I’m sure the laws differ somewhat based on whether the state or city also protects gender identity/gender presentation and not just sex, but in general I’m curious where the line is)

            1. Over Development*

              IANAL, but I have consulted for clients (colleges & universities) who have these dress codes — I had to be onsite at a college where women were not allowed to wear pants, so I’m pretty sure it’s legal.

              I also have a friend who works for a state university where pantyhose are required if they are wearing a skirt or dress.

              1. Anon On This One*

                I don’t know if I’d assume that. I think even at private schools saying a woman HAS to wear a skirt is probably worth investigating as far as legality gos.

              2. Elizabeth West*

                The giant church headquarters here with the ultra-conservative hiring requirements (e.g. no dancing, cursing, fornicating, etc.) does make women wear dresses or skirts. I know because one of my college classmates was a member and also worked there. As far as I know, in this case it’s totally legal. Since they prefer to hire members, I would imagine most of the employees wear them anyway. I don’t think I ever saw her wearing trousers.

              3. Doriana Gray*

                I also have a friend who works for a state university where pantyhose are required if they are wearing a skirt or dress.

                My mom works at an insurance company that has this rule.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Generally courts have found that you can have a different dress code for men than women, which I think is rooted in the idea that society still has different ideas about appearance for men vs. women. Let me see if I can find something on a legal site that explains this better than I am doing.

                1. neverjaunty*

                  Though that article is talking about federal courts, and broad trends – and those cases tend to be in areas where there are strongly differentiated dress codes (like casinos). I wouldn’t fall back on that article if, say, a tech employer were letting the guys show up in T-shirts and jeans but wanted women to wear blouses and skirts.

              2. HRChick*

                What about Waterhouse vs. Hopkins?
                Or does that only say if she lost her job because she wasn’t dressing to gender norms, it’s illegal?

        2. Katie the Fed*

          There’s a difference between what should be done and what legally MUST be done. So it’s a good idea to treat employees fairly in general. But legally you don’t have to – as long as your unfair treatment isn’t for legally protected reasons. This is where deciding that hijabs aren’t allowed in a dress code can get you in legal hot water – it’s discriminatory on the basis of religion.

    5. all aboard the anon train*

      If I was supporting a mid-level manager, I’d be annoyed, but I totally understand why a VP wants his EA to dress a bit more business formal rather than business casual. If he’s telling her that she needs to dress in dresses and skirts all the time, that would be a problem.

      Can she tell him that getting a new wardrobe would be expensive? And what exactly is he asking? Business slacks instead of jeans? A blazer over a blouse? Closed toe shoes instead of open toed? Does she really have to buy an entirely new wardrobe or can she just update a few pieces?

      1. EA*

        Suits and heels. She doesn’t have those clothes so its expensive. The biggest problem I think is that she wasn’t told when she took the job. She wears khaki/sweaters.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Suits are an ok requirement. I hate them too, but I think it’s ok to require them. Heels though? No way. I don’t think he can demand that.

          1. Isben Takes Tea*

            Yeah, I think heels can’t be reinforced, because you wouldn’t ask a man to wear heels. I’m not a lawyer, but I’d contact one if my boss told me about the heels.

            1. Katie the Fed*

              I think they can in some cases where it’s a part of the image of the company (like with flight attendants). But if I was the only one in a company who was being told to wear heels because my male boss wanted it, I’d think that was really inappropriate.

              I also really hate heels.

              1. Elizabeth West*

                Me too–they kill my back. A better option would be closed-toe shoes. This could apply to either flats or heels or any shoe that’s appropriate to wear with a suit. But I would balk at being forced to wear a skirt suit. I very rarely wear dresses, sorry.

          2. Sadsack*

            Yeah, I’d go for dressier flats. If they are dress shoes, I doubt he’d say no it must be high heels.

          3. ThursdaysGeek*

            My neighbor mostly works from home, but she’s said that when her boss visits, she insists that my neighbor dress up, including wearing heels. I wouldn’t be able to work at a job where I was required to wear heels, even if it was only a few days a year.

          4. Pontoon Pirate*

            So how would you suggest the EA approach this additional expense? A few good suits (even suit separates, like slacks and blazers) will run at least a few hundred dollars.

            1. E*

              Could she get some basics from the local thrift store? I know that the local Goodwill here is in a upscale part of town so I can sometimes find good quality brands. A basic black or navy suit would be pairable with a few nice tops to get her through a week. Not sure what area you are in, but here I could get a suit or blazer/skirt with a handful of tops for under $50 total.

              1. Pontoon Pirate*

                I guess that’s too much of a crapshoot for me. I like clothes that fit my body, not “okay enough because that’s what the thrift store had.” If the reason she has to buy suits is because she’s representing the VP, then by inference those clothes need to be well-fitted and not look “off.”

                1. VideogamePrincess*

                  I have gotten some of my best outfits at thrift stores, though, including all of my dress clothes. And most of those both fit well and look pretty snazzy! Although I don’t know the rules about wearing bright colors like purple, blue, and orange.

                2. Pontoon Pirate*

                  @VGP
                  I concede it’s probably easier for other people not me to find things at thrift stores. I love finding a good deal, but the sheer volume and chaos overwhelms me and it’s a rare day I find an item in my size and in good condition and in this decade’s style.

                  I also hate “antique” “shoppes.”

              2. Dynamic Beige*

                If not the thrift store, she could check and see what there is in the way of consignment shops. The next town over has an upscale (from what I’ve heard) resale store where people donate and the money goes to their charity. It’s a tony city so I would imagine there’s good stuff there.

                I think that the EA should have a conversation with her boss that she was unaware that he required his EA to dress more formally and that she’s willing to do so, but it will take her a while to purchase enough clothes. That’s what I did when I was in a similar situation, I was very matter of fact about how much money I had at the end of my pay cheque — I wasn’t dressing down on purpose, it was what I had to wear. Considering what the other employee wore, I wasn’t that bad, I thought.

                So IMO, she should start small. A black jacket and matching pants. I would also look for suits/jackets that are machine washable, most of mine are because I find dry cleaning to be expensive and annoying. She could wear the black jacket over top of different shirts every day if she needed to. Then buy extra pieces as she finds them, can afford them.

        2. Student*

          Suggest that she ask for a clothing allocation. Come up with a reasonable number and propose it as a way to make compliance possible.

          1. Troutwaxer*

            I was thinking the same thing. I might even say, or even write, “To buy what you want new will cost X dollars. If you can give me a clothing allowance, even just once so I can get started, I can be dressed the way you’d like beginning next Monday. On the other hand, if no clothing allowance is offered, I will either need to shop at Goodwill/similar for the clothing you’d like me to wear, with obvious effects on my appearance, or I will have to make the change slowly over a period of months because business clothing is expensive. Please let me know which alternative you’d like me to follow.”

            X dollars should probably be qualified as “3-months rent” or “more than my total food budget for the next six months.”

            Lastly, if I took a job that wanted expensive suits and other office-formal kinds of clothing, I would be thinking about that with regard to my pay package. In other words, “I will be needing 3-4,000 dollars of suits in the next year, does my salary allow me to cover that?”

        3. TootsNYC*

          Were I her, I’d be going to him to say, “Dressing more formally, sure, but suits are really expensive. I’ll dress up more. But if you really want me to purchase suits, that’s going to change the economics of my job here in a negative way.”

          And then I’d wear fancy shoes w/ my khakis, and add a scarf or a top with some other top layer (like a cardigan or a dressy jacket).
          And I’d go buy me 3 pairs of nice pants that would look dressed up w/ dress shoes under them.

          1. Sadsack*

            Yeah, your suggestions are what I was thinking, too. I wouldn’t wear the khakis any more, but a couple of pairs of slacks with scarves and dress shoes will probably make a big difference. These do not have to be expensive either.

    6. Guinness*

      We have a dress code but it also says that exceptions can be made depending on the type of work you’re doing.

    7. Judy*

      Recently, it seems that “business casual” can mean khakis and polos, while when I started, it meant dress pants and nice blouse, shirt and tie for men, but not suits. I’m not sure the last time I’ve seen a man in a tie at a place I’ve worked except for interviewees and people going to funerals later in the day. Is there a way for her to dress more formally, but not in business formal (suits)?

      At this office, it’s fairly rare for any of the men to be wearing anything but jeans, although they’re usually wearing polos or buttondown shirts.

      1. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

        Oh…the joy of business casual…we actually had to add examples to our dress code because it is such a broad term.

        Our c-suite and VPs interpreted business casual as shirt and tie, while some of our staff took business casual as black jeans.

      2. Lily Rowan*

        Yeah, in my experience, it used to mean a step down from a suit, and now it means a step up from jeans. I think our culture has gotten a lot more casual overall in the last 20 years.

    8. pieces of flair*

      It sucks, but I do think this falls under “when your boss wants you to do something you do.”

    9. Lily in NYC*

      Sorry, she’s wrong. I am also an EA and my wardrobe varies depending on my boss. My first boss here wanted me to wear suits, pantyhose and heels every day, so I did. Another boss here wouldn’t have noticed if I showed up in a bathrobe so I dressed pretty casually. Now it’s somewhere in between and I wear business casual. This is all at the same job.

      And yes, it will be an expense, but there are plenty of places one can buy discounted work clothes. She should not go to HR about this. But maybe she can ask for a stipend to buy some clothes if it’s truly a hardship?

      1. Lily in NYC*

        Meant to say that even though she should suck it up, I still think it sucks considering she is meeting the dress code.

    10. Pwyll*

      Does she have a good enough relationship with her boss to enable her to communicate the budget issues related to this?

      “Boss, when I accepted this job I did so with the understanding that this was a business casual workplace. I can respect that you would like to change my dresscode, but the reality is that I don’t own en entire wardrobe of business professional clothes, and I don’t have the budget to replace my wardrobe with such little notice. Can we work out a compromise on this issue?”

      Granted, if she doesn’t WANT to buy new clothing at all this isn’t helpful, but if she can drag out the process so that it is not immediate (AKA, starting Monday you must wear all new clothes), it could at least give her some time to search for a new job while showing her boss she’s making an effort to comply with his request.

      1. Tex*

        Piggy backing on this… does the boss know there a couple of steps between khakis and suits? He might be looking for something a bit more formal, but can’t define it so he said suits and heels.

        She can offer to look more polished without going to suits. Slacks (not khakis), accessories and the occasional blazer can elevate her look without investing in several suits. Let him know that she is working on it, but it might take some time as a well fitting suit (for women) is difficult to find and expensive.

      2. Tex*

        Piggy backing on this… does the boss know there a couple of steps between khakis and suits? He might be looking for something a bit more formal, but can’t define it so he said suits and heels.

        She can offer to look more polished without going to suits. Slacks (not khakis), accessories and the occasional blazer can elevate her look without investing in several suits. Let him know that she is working on it, but it might take some time as a well fitting woman’s suit (no matter the price range) is difficult to find.

    11. Nico m*

      The VP is a prick. The President wants business casual, why isnt he doing what the Boss wants?

      1. Ask a Manager* Post author

        That’s pretty harsh! The VP presumably has the autonomy to run his division the way he thinks most effective, and it’s unlikely the president has strong feelings about it.

          1. Ask a Manager* Post author

            It may if they deal with clients who expect a certain image. Regardless, it’s generally considered something within a manager’s purview.

          2. Florida*

            Actually, there is plenty of research that show that people behave differently depending on how they are dressed. Also, customers respond to people differently depending on how they are dressed. Dress matters and it matters a lot.

          3. Emmie*

            There may also be departmental differences at play. Would your opinion be different if she was a corporate finance or accounting employee (i.e. more conservative dress common) verses a marketing employee (where more creative types are)?

    12. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I’m going to say that it really depends on how much she’s getting paid. EA can mean anything from $10/hour to six figures a year, even when supporting a VP. If she’s closer to $10/hour than six figures, I agree with her, otherwise, I’d say she has to suck it up and dress up.

    13. Marvel*

      It really sucks that she wasn’t told before taking the job. I personally HATE dressing formally; it makes me uncomfortable and self-conscious and distracts me from what’s important (i.e., the work), and a workplace/position that required very formal dress might be a dealbreaker for me. I know I’m not the only one who thinks that way, so I think employers should think seriously about whether it’s worth it to spring this on someone once they’ve already been hired.

      That said, though, I don’t actually think it’s an unreasonable request. If I may make a recommendation, thrift stores are great for this type of thing–you can find formal wear incredibly cheap there, and if she shops around in multiple stores, she’s bound to find something that fits.

    14. Joey*

      If I were her I’d ask for some money toward a clothing allowance if I were expected to buy an entirely new, expensive wardrobe. I’ve seen this kind of thing granted before, and it’s not unreasonable to request it.

    15. Jean*

      I’m also a reader of the corporette web site. Although it certainly covers high-priced women’s clothing, I’ve also learned about more affordable options. Some ideas below. Sorry if they seem hopelessly obvious:
      – When the Corporette site owner presents an expensive item (e.g. blazer at $600) she also discusses something comparable but with an affordable price.
      – The site owner announces online sales (for set calendar dates such as Memorial Day or Labor Day, but also at more random times) and gives links. Commenters will also share information about unexpected sales by specific designers or retailers.
      – The owner and the commenters often share online shopping discount codes.
      – People trade tips about sources of affordable clothing. I remember JCPenney being cited as a good place for suit separates that could be purchased without triggering personal bankruptcy.
      – If credit card temptation is not a problem, the coworker can open a department store charge account (discount!) at the same time that the store has a sale (additional discount!) … and then pay off the reasonble balance over the next several months (“reasonable” being “whatever you can manage without stiffing your landlord, inducing heart failure, or triggering an unrestrained shopping binge”). Ordinarily I’d suggest that the coworker save up for one or two months before incurring the debt, but it sounds as if her boss wants her to dress up her work wardrobe as soon as possible.
      – I second the suggestion of thrift & consignment stores. Secondhand clothes are available online via eBay and other sites. (Browse the Corporette archives to find names of other online thrift/consignment vendors.)
      – There’s always sewing one’s own clothes–if one has the requisite combination of skill, equipment, determination, workspace, accessible and acceptable supplies, and free time! (Me, I dream about this. In real life it takes me months if not years to hem a new pair of pants.)

      Finally, let me mention several sites not always mentioned on Corporette: hanes (dot) com for discount pantyhose & tights; barenecessities (dot) com for discount lingerie (sometimes you need very specific underthings for underneath business formal clothing); and llbean(dot)com, landsend(dot)com, 6pm(dot)com, zappos(dot)com, and marylandsquare(dot)com for business formal suit elements, blouses, accessories, and/or shoes–especially when they have sales! Most online vendors maintain at least one ongoing Sale section as well as offering seasonal sales or discounts.

      Good luck to your EA coworker.

    16. NaoNao*

      I really second the thrift store advice, but also: ebay or other second hand online resources for Ann Taylor, Banana Republic, J. Crew, Nordstroms, Dana Buchman, or other similar less expensive business wear that could straddle the line between “3 piece suit and spike heels” and “khakis and a polo”. Check out consignment stores too–they often have Chicos, St. Johns, or actual designer brands for 50% or less!

      Oftentimes women almost have an advantage in the business world since fashionable stuff like wide legged dress pants in wool or suiting material that are lined, and embellished flats with a cashmere sweater, a blazer on top, and a silk scarf could read as “formal” and still be quite comfortable.

      Another outfit could be a simple sheath dress, a silk scarf, “major jewelry”, again embellished or patent leather flats with a pointy toe (key to looking formal–no ballet flats), a blazer on top.

      I think she might be able to get away with a button down, a pencil skirt, a blazer, flats, and “major jewelry” as well as long as everything is bandbox fresh and relatively high quality as a third possible.

      Major jewelry would be something that is fashionable, not too sparkly, and high-end costume (like Napier, or 1928) or “real” such as Tiffany, David Yurman, Elsa Perretti, etc.) Also it’s bold and has gravitas–no dainty chains, dangling earrings, or “stacker” birthstone rings.

      If the concerned party is on the petite side, vintage clothing (like vintage suits) can be quite affordable and very flattering, while being just about as formal as you can get (knee length, suiting material, fitted, button down jackets, etc).

      The keys to looking polished are hair, grooming (like nails), bag, shoes, and accessories. She might be able to get away with less expensive items like simple button downs and knee length pencil skirts if the “key items” are in top flight condition and are expensive/statement items/very well cared for classics.

      Good luck—maybe it would help to think of it as a chance to play with fashion and update/upgrade her look? (If she decides to keep the job and it’s something she can/wants to!)

    17. Observer*

      Dress codes need to be applied FAIRLY then EQUALLY. He’s also clearly not asking her to dress up because she’s a woman and “women need to look good” or anything like that. I can’t see any HR department taking her seriously if she comes up with a discrimination complaint.

      That said, could she talk to her boss about the additional expense involved? She was under the impression that this was not going to be an issue when she took the job, so there might be some help there.

  20. New Girl*

    Okay, so I have a second job I’m a server. In all the years I’ve been doing it, I’ve never been able to find a good response for this situation. When asking a customer how their food and I get the occasionally person that says it’s terrible, or they don’t like it. I’m never sure what to say. I have tried offering them something different or having the kitchen cook it to their liking but 9 times out of 10, they say no! They’ll continue on with their meal. I still charge them because they ate it after I tried to remedy the situation. Is there a better option?

    1. Not Karen*

      Sounds like you’re doing things right. If they still eat it, it clearly can’t be that bad!

    2. Dang*

      No. You offered a solution, they declined. It’s on them. Why would you continue eating something that terrible anyway? People.

    3. ZSD*

      I think that what you’re currently doing – offering to either fix or replace the food – is the right first step. If they refuse, then I guess I’d assure them that you’ll let the kitchen know about the problem so that it doesn’t happen again.
      (I think there’s a difference, though, between the people saying the food is terrible and the people who just say they don’t like it. If they’re in the latter group, they might not really be complaining, but rather just answering your question honestly and saying that the meal just isn’t their thing. I wouldn’t fret too much over those people.)

      1. TL -*

        Yeah! Sometimes I order something I know I might not like because, you know, trying new things.

        And then generally I don’t like it, but if you offered to replace it, I’d say no because I knew the risk when I ordered it.

      2. Crystal Vu*

        I ordered something once because I wanted to try a new entree. I just didn’t like it so I ate only about a third of it. I could tell the ingredients were good and fresh and the entree seemed to be prepared appropriately. Still, it was icky to my palate. I asked to order something else because I was still hungry. The server wanted to take off the price of my first choice. I said please don’t, I took a chance, it just wasn’t my thing and I’ll eat the cost. She still took it off the bill. I hope she didn’t get dinged for it, and I tipped 30% just in case, but really, if a customer says they’re willing to pay for it, please take them at their word.

    5. KR*

      I work in customer service. If I get a comment like that I usually apologize sincerely – it can be as simple as, “Well I’m very sorry to hear that.”, acknowledge how frustrating/upsetting/disappointing it must be, and then offer them a solution to the problem. If they don’t take the solution, I then say something to the effect of, “Well again, I’m sorry about , please let me know if there’s anything else I can do to make this right for you.” That way, the customer knows that you understand that they’re frustrated/upset/unhappy, knows that there is a solution should they choose to take it, and that the line of communication is open in case they want something else to accommodate them, even if they don’t take it.

    6. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      So… I do this. And up front, I don’t expect anything, truly. If it was something I wanted to bother with being fixed, I would have said so right away. Most of the time the problem is a steak that’s overcooked. You can’t uncook it and I don’t want to wait for a new one so I’ll just deal with it. One time that happened at Red Lobster. I don’t like seafood but my husband does, so I usually get steak there. I don’t expect it to be fantastic, it’s Red Lobster after all. But one time the manager said he thought that their steak was one of the best in town and he was sorry I felt different. I think we got a free dessert. I really didn’t expect anything. Honestly the best thing a server or manager could do in that instance is tell the cooks to stop overcooking steaks. Grey is not medium rare.

        1. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

          Yeah I don’t know what kind of delusional world that guy lives in. I mean, we’re in Omaha for crying out loud. The best in town? Maybe the best in a 100 foot radius.

    7. White Mage*

      On the flip side of this, I almost never say I don’t like something when asked because I always feel bad asking for something new to be cooked. I feel like because I ordered it and if I don’t like it then that’s on me (unless something is wrong with the dish). Or I don’t want to wait for a new dish to be cooked.

      1. Rat in the Sugar*

        Don’t feel bad! I worked in a restaurant for years and recooks were very normal for me; they just happen when you serve so many people every day. Not everyone likes all the food on the menu, after all. The kitchen does not generally mind at all to remake something; they’ve probably done it for 10 different people that day already who were way ruder about it than you! As long as you ask nicely it should never be a big deal (though you’re right that you have to wait sometimes.)

      2. New Girl*

        Please don’t feel bad! I would rather have someone say something to me so I can try and fix the situation. It’s my job to make you happy and serve you to the best of my ability.

    8. Rat in the Sugar*

      Nope, you’re doing right. If they say don’t like it, offer a new plate of the same food or something different (whichever will take less time to cook so they don’t have to wait) and remember to reassure them that the replacement food will be free (some people think they will be charged) and that it is no trouble and you replace food with different options all the time (so they know it’s not a big deal and won’t worry about pissed-off cooks spitting in it). If they still say no and they look okay with it, just leave it alone or maybe apologize one more time when you bring the check and say you hope it will be better next time. If they say no but look unhappy, have your manager come by the table or take the drinks/dessert/appetizer off the tab or something like that.

      1. Brett*

        You just made me wonder about a situation I ran into last week as a customer…
        I was part of a large group eating at a restaurant on a fixed menu. There were three entree options, a shrimp dish, a steak dish, and a diet-oriented chicken breast dish.
        The steak came with bacon jam on it, and I asked if the bacon jam could be left off because I am allergic to pork. Server immediately gave me a firm no, that the dishes could not be changed. I have a strong personal dislike for shrimp, so I went with the relatively bland chicken dish.

        Should I have handled that a different way? I didn’t really ask about alternatives beyond the three dishes either (I considered asking for a vegetarian option, which is what I do a lot to avoid bacon, but decided to just go for the chicken and avoid holding up the waitress who had 50+ orders to take).

        1. Anna*

          Is the jam injected in to the steak before it’s cooked? Because that’s the only reason a firm no would be warranted in my opinion.

        2. Granite*

          I just wanted to say I get not wanting special orders for large groups, but I would expect an exception for an allergy.

        3. New girl*

          I find it very odd that they wouldn’t be more accommodating for an allergy? I think your allergy trumps all in this situation because typically it can be life or death for allergies. I think it would have been reasonable to ask the waitress for a vegetarian dish.

        4. Cristina in England*

          Ok, two guesses:
          1. This is a restaurant policy for large groups for their own convenience regardless of customer service.
          2. The steak is prepared in advance. If it is a chain it might be prepared off-site and just delivered ready to put on the grill.

    9. S0phieChotek*

      I agree. Having worked in service for years also–I think you’re on the right track.
      You’ve acknowledged the issue, offered a solution, there is nothing more you can do.
      I would think it would be up to the manager to offer free dessert; I guess you could ask the manager if they have an opinion about bringing it to their attention, if they decline other options.
      Others already posted good additional suggestions and ideas.

      Otherwise, like others said, it’s also a pain to wait while others have food for kitchen to remake something.
      I’ve done it, but only once or twice in my life when it was a pretty big issue. But I felt really guilty, even though I knew I was paying for food and the kitchen really did mess up my order.

    10. CMT*

      I think sometimes people will tell you when things are bad because they genuinely want the kitchen to know.

    11. Cristina in England*

      I have been a server in a chain restaurant and I would comp drinks or offer free dessert or something like that if the customer didn’t want a different meal or to have it recooked.

      Now, as a customer, I get very annoyed when my meal is terrible and I am only offered a different meal because I do not want to wait around while my dining companion eats their food, only to have them wait around while I eat mine. The most annoying thing is when a server says “tell me what I can do to make this right” when they are only willing to offer a coupon for another meal at another time. Why ask if there is only one answer?

      TL;DR: offer money off if you are allowed to.

      1. New Girl*

        I’m not really allowed to offer money or a discount unless they are willing to give up the rest of their meal in exchange. Basically, the thinking is that if it is that bad and they won’t eat any of it or take it home.

        1. Cristina in England*

          Comparing it to other businesses, the food is the product and if you want your money back, you give the remainder of the product back. A customer is kind of captive, however. They’ve already sat down, maybe had a first course and a drink, and are a few bites into a meal that is (for whatever reason) unacceptable. Any option other than giving money off creates additional inconvenience for the customer beyond the unsatisfactory food, mostly in time spent waiting without a meal. It’s adding insult to injury.

          The most recent time I had a meal this bad was when I saw the cook put the chicken breast on the grill and go take a 20 minute break. That thing was beyond overcooked. I knew exactly what had happened, and that it wasn’t my fault. Did I want to wait another 15-20 minutes for another meal made by this person? No, no I did not. I could not leave and go somewhere else because I was with other people (whose meals legitimately took longer to cook and were fine). All I wanted was my money back, not to spend more time in a place I was growing to dislike and to eat more food from a cook I didn’t trust.

          I understand the thinking behind why they won’t give money back but I disagree with it. By the time I have started actually eating my meal I am a bit stuck in my situation, and having to wait for a second meal is just making things even worse.

    12. Rebecca in Dallas*

      As far as replacing their meal, you offered and they declined so I think you’re doing the right thing.

      Maybe ask your manager if you can offer them a free dessert? A lot of restaurants will do a free birthday dessert, so if yours does you can just code it that way. That way if they’re declining the new meal because of a time crunch or something, they can still enjoy the dessert (or take it home with them).

      But yeah, sometimes people are just weird. I’d never tell the server that my food was terrible without expecting them to do something about it. (i.e. it’s different than what I ordered, something wasn’t cooked correctly, etc)

      1. New Girl*

        I work at a breakfast restaurant in the early mornings so dessert is typically out of the question for most people.

        1. Rebecca in Dallas*

          Ah, I see. (I mean, I’ll take a good dessert any time of day, but to each their own!) Maybe ask your manager if there’s a way they would prefer that situation handled, but it sounds like you’re doing what you can!

    13. 3D Queen*

      I like to offer them an exchange, but if they turn it down, I said “Ok! Offer stands” – pretty much always does the trick and leaves people with a positive reflection on me as their server.

      I’ve waited tables for 10 years, from cafe to white table, full time to side gig, and I find that sometimes people are just honest but don’t really want to go through the hassle of waiting for new food or don’t hate it thaaaat much, etc. etc.. To be honest, it still always kills me a little inside because I honestly truly want people to like their dining experience, but it’s just one of those things to get used to.

    14. SMT*

      You can pull a manager in – they can comp a dessert or talk to the guest (and they should be aware of dissastisfied customers).

    15. Anxa*

      I’m pretty sure management should have a some sort of policy about this.

      Also, how are you asking them? “Is everything alright?” is much different from “how is everything?” and some restaurants will encourage the former so that issues don’t arise over slightly disappointing food, but there’s a chance to please an upset customer.

    16. Diluted_TortoiseShell*

      Yeah – I have been that customer. I went out on a limb and tried something new – but it turns out I didn’t like it. When the waitress asks, “Did you like the food?” I am honest and say I personally didn’t like the dish. They usually offer to replace the dish and I decline – since it is not the kitchens fault that I don’t like it.

      However I would pay attention to what dishes you get this on. If there is a new app that is really divided – people love it or hate it – maybe keep that in mind and ask what people didn’t like about it. I’ve found that really helpful when a waitstaff can provide some idea of why people have loved or hated a dish.

  21. Charlotte Collins*

    I had a job interview yesterday for a position I’m really interested in. Wish me luck!

    Also, I’d like to give a plug for Alison’s book. It was really helpful in preparing for the interview and dealing with my pre-interview nerves.

  23. The Cosmic Avenger*

    So remember those jobs I didn’t get? It didn’t bother me much, as I wasn’t sure they could offer me enough to make me want to leave, as I was fairly happy here, but feeling like I was underpaid. Well, early this week I told my boss that I wanted to be able to feel like I didn’t need to look, but that my salary wasn’t competitive, and today I was told that I’ll be getting a 10% mid-cycle raise!

    I owe a lot of it to Alison for showing me how to argue for it, and simply that it’s OK to ask for it.

    2. CM*

      That’s great — you stood up for yourself, you get to stay in a job that you like, and it’s clear that they value you and want you to stay. Congratulations!

  24. always anon*

    I got three job rejections between this week and last week, all of them after interviews. I really need to get out of my current job (everyone is abandoning ship here), and while I’m trying to stay positive about getting interviews, three rejections in the span of two weeks is not doing much for my positive outlook. I know it should be a good sign I’m even getting interviews, but it’s getting harder and harder to come into work each morning.

    1. Fabulous*

      Same issue, except with barely getting any interviews. I started applying in Nov 2014, have sent out over 100 targeted applications in addition to numerous Quick Applies on job websites, and I’ve been on less than 10 interviews since then, with no offers. I had 4 interviews one week a couple months back and got rejections from all of them. :(

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Sending you both great vibes! I hope you find something new soon. I don’t have much more to say other than keep going and at least know that some silly gal in CA is thinking about you and wishing you luck!

  25. Not Karen*

    When presenting your case for a promotion (like senior vs. junior, not managerial), should you already be performing 100% of the responsibilities of the higher position? Some of these responsibilities I haven’t done simply because there hasn’t been the opportunity.

    1. Lefty*

      You can’t reasonably be expected to perform those other duties if they’re already (only?) assigned to senior employees. Maybe just showing interest in taking them on- asking for training or to watch the process- would be enough to show that you’re ready to be considered for the promotion. Have you been shadowing someone or trying to be involved in those other responsibilities? That might help your stance by showing initiative even if you haven’t been able to complete the work yourself. “I’ve been watching Lucinda complete the Spout Output Reports over the last 3 months and I’d really enjoy having the opportunity to do them as well. She’s shown me the general requirements and it was very interesting to learn that the ‘Pour Ratio’ was such an important factor in the reporting.”

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      No, definitely not. It’s helpful if you’ve been doing some similar stuff, but expecting you to have been doing most or all of it would be really odd.

  26. Confused Publisher*

    What do you do when a freelancer who has a good reputation turns in a project that is a complete and absolute mess, to the point where I wish I’d been left to do the work rather than correcting theirs? Obviously, I will be feeding back in a polite, factual way: I spotted this, and this needs to be done that way. But, what else, if anything? I don’t know them well enough to know whether this is out-of-character enough that I need to be concerned about what else is going on, or they just dropped the ball on this project. But I’m frustrated, and behind … and I guess I just needed to vent a bit?

    1. Cambridge Comma*

      In similar situations, I’ve used the pretext of checking I had the been sent the correct file because of [mentioning a couple of the bigger issues, e.g. This isn’t our reference style]. I try and do it before a weekend so that if the freelancer wants to, they can fix it and pretend on Monday morning they sent the wrong file. It sometimes works.

      1. Nanc*

        Yes, do this right away. We did have a situation once where our contract writer accidentally sent their first draft instead of their final draft. She was mortified but it turned out not to be a big deal since we had the right draft within a few minutes.

    2. Not the Droid You are Looking For*

      I would be honest and say, “this project is well below the quality I expected.” I think it’s one of the times to be straightforward (but still kind).

    3. NarrowDoorways*

      I have been dealing with this SO much lately.

      Sometimes, if you feel it’s appropriate, you can mention the issues and then transition into a discussion about health with a good dose of flattery. Like, “I noticed these things, which is so unusual for you because you’re an amazing writer. Is everything OK on your end? I know allergy season is hitting everyone particularly hard. Looking forward to your next piece!”

      Really, the big thing to me is mentioning the problem. Then she knows you noticed and will hopefully not lapse again.

  27. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    I’m getting recruited for a temp to perm job with a large contracting firm (think: top 5 in the nation). How often do these gigs go perm? The salary is nearly 40% more than what I make, matches well with my credentials, and the client base is phenomenal.

    Tl;dr: do temp to perm gigs go perm most of the time? Or should I skip this (lucrative for now) opportunity?

    1. RKB*

      Hmmmm. I’m speaking from a government standpoint, but it’s rather difficult to make perm if there’s a lot of employees in the organization. Especially for the first two years. My partner works for the city (as do I) and has for four years — he just got perm this year. I started with the city 8 months ago and wouldn’t even dream of applying for perm positions.

      BUT, the caveat here is that we are unionized, and the union requires that perm positions go in order of seniority to applicants being considered. (For example: Harry and Ron have the same qualifications, started at the same time, do the same work — but Harry once held a previous position with the city, and therefore has seniority, so he gets perm.)

      Then again, with a private organization, it may be totally different.

        1. RKB*

          It does. They have internal perm postings and once you apply you become perm part time or perm full time. Since it’s only been a year, I wouldn’t apply to a perm posting. They have to make them public for a week or so because of the union but they’re really for internal candidates.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      How long is the temp contract for, before they decide if it will go permanent? How much of a risk are you willing to take?

      I was a temp-to-perm for a Big 4 firm. It was a 3-month temp contract, and both the Big 4 hiring manager and the temp firm told me that 95% of all temp contracts turned permanent after the 3-month period. I was otherwise unemployed, so there was little risk in me accepting the opportunity.

      On the flipside: I was offered a 6-month temp contract, which had a lower chance of going permanent (but could potentially – maybe even likely – be renewed). I currently had a decent job, so decided it wasn’t worth the risk.

      Can you ask the contracting firm what their temp-to-perm rate is?

    3. LawCat*

      I don’t know how often and certainly there is a risk that they won’t (RKB makes a good point that it gets more challenging when there is a union involved), but I wouldn’t skip an opportunity that’s a good match, the possibility of a move to permanent, and 40% higher pay (!). I’m not clear why you’d skip it.

    4. Lily in NYC*

      To me, temp to perm means that it’s a trial run and that the job is yours after the trial period if you do a good job. Otherwise it would be a pure temp job or contract role. We would never call a position “temp to perm” here if the job wasn’t planning to be made permanent. But I’m starting to think it might not be a term that’s universally applied.

      1. Carmen Sandiego JD*

        This is what it sounds like. No exact #s given, but they said a lot of temp to perms go perm at the end. Its 6 months temp then convert over to perm with the top 5 company, working for client and making 40% more.

        The 40% more in and of itself is very tempting, but I want to go in for the right reasons. Plus the gig I have, while contract, is a multi-year one that lasts long…(ie. less salary but a sure thing)

    5. Sunflower*

      Depends on the place you’re working at and the job you’re doing. Did you ask the recruiter? My friend recruits for finance temp to perm jobs and almost all go perm unless you are a terrible employee. There are definitely some slimy firms who will tell you something is temp to perm when it’s really just temp. Have you tried researching online? That might help.

  28. Jayne*

    I have a general discussion question:

    Do any of you do anything special for each day of the week (I use “special” lightly)? For example, you have a certain chocolate bar you eat on Mondays, on Fridays you order take-out…stuff like that. Just curious if anybody did that sort of thing, and what you do.

    1. Lucy*

      My husband and I go out for coffee on Friday mornings before work! It’s a really nice way to usher in the weekend.

      2. Laura*

        That’s a great idea. I wish my boyfriend and I could meet up for a Starbucks date at some point on Fridays! I just went by myself today during a break. :)

    2. RKB*

      On Thursdays my coworkers and I try new candies and all their flavours. We finished Maynard’s and Skittles during our winter schedule! Next up is Hershey brand chocolates.

    3. KR*

      On Wednesdays I visit my grandmother. We either eat in if none of us have cash or order delivery. Monday mornings I visit my friend at a coffee shop she works at before work. My treat for working through the weekend.

    4. insert name here*

      I get the expensive orange juice on Monday mornings :) It makes me happy it’s Monday.

    5. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Once a week, I order an omelet from our office cafeteria instead of bringing in breakfast once a week (usually happens on Fridays).

    6. Lily in NYC*

      I like to live dangerously. I have underpants with a day of the week on each one and I am such a rebel that I’m wearing Monday’s undies today.
      (but no, I don’t do anything like you mention even though it sounds nice)

      1. Sarah Nicole*

        Same! I try to bring my lunch all week (sometimes I fail at this), but like to give myself a treat on Fridays by buying lunch.

    8. SL #2*

      I tend to go out for lunch on Fridays. We do it as a team; there’s lots of great local options around here, plus our usual lunch spot is closed on Fridays, so half of it is out of necessity. But I do bring my lunch most days of the week, so for me, this is a treat.

    9. Dawn*

      I don’t, but my husband and his work friends go out to eat at a different lunch place every Wednesday. He’s found some awesome places that way!

    10. TheLazyB*

      When I went back to full time I decided I would need a treat to get me through the week if we were all to survive. So on Wednesdays I buy my DH and I a cream cake and my DS a kinder egg for after our tea. My DS has also declared Friday Pizza Day so I make pita bread pizzas for tea that night. I like rituals :)

    11. TootsNYC*

      In college I always dressed up (skirt & heels, etc.) on Mondays.

      I may try to go back to something like that.
      And my son and I used to get nuts from the Nuts Man (candied cashews from the cart) every Tuesday (and only Tuesday; it was a way to manage his preschooler request). And we got a Nuts Man friend out of it, who gave him a stuffed alligator when he graduated from that preschool.

    12. another IT manager*

      One of my offices does Doughnut Thursday–people take turns bringing in an assortment from various local doughnut shops and try slices of each.

    13. JJtheDoc*

      I have a couple: a customized cup of chai on Monday, to start the week and home-made pizza for dinner on Fridays. Oh, and on Sunday the SO and I indulge in gluten free English muffins with ham and cheese (SO) or mashed avocado (JJ) for breakfast.

      1. Laura*

        What brand of GF English muffins do you buy? I miss English muffins so much and I’ve seen some GF ones at Sprouts. Would love to get some!

    14. MsMaryMary*

      I was doing Meatless Mondays for a while in an effort to eat more vegetables. Then I decided that Mondays are already rough, I don’t need to make them worse. Now I try to eat vegetarian one day a week, but which day it is varies.

      I also realized that I’m replacing the meat in many of my meals with cheese, which may not be any healthier.

    15. Bryson*

      I have “fast food Friday.” I bring my lunch to work each day except most Fridays, when I have fast food. This allows me to have more time in the morning (don’t have to worry about making my lunch) and it’s a nice, greasy treat.

    16. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

      I try to bring lunch most days, but Friday is Burrito Day at work and a group of us will hike up the road to the good place 15 minutes away rather than the crappy boring place 5 minutes up the road. Sometimes the team will go to the Indian Buffet on the corner for a really excellent set lunch that is pretty quick.

      Sunday is Coffee Morning with significant other – we get out the fancy coffee and the Aeropress and some nice muffins (home made by me) or hell make scrambled eggs and stuff and we lounge in jamys reading the paper etc.

    17. Jayne*

      I bring my lunch most days, then go out on Fridays, too.

      I also tend to get certain songs stuck in my head. On Mondays, I’ll get “Monday, Monday” by The Mama’s and the Papa’s stuck in my head, and then of course, Rebecca Black on Fridays

    18. Elizabeth West*

      Just Taco Tuesday–sometimes I bring the leftovers to work for lunch on Wednesday. Or sometimes I make my Monday night meal a taco/nacho/burrito thing so I can have Taco Tuesday at work.

      My rituals tend to be daily. Stair climbs at preset times, my cuppa with breakfast in the morning and in the afternoon, etc.

    19. Dr. Johnny Fever*

      I don’t have a regular day of the week, but any morning that I gas up, I treat myself to a large coffee and a chocolate-glazed donut.

      Nice treat for me, and indulges my sweet tooth while not derailing my weight loss success. Funny how such a little thing can change one’s start to one’s day.

      1. Jules the First*

        Sundays are my day – I spend an extra hour in bed with a book, bake something lovely for breakfast (scones or muffins or pancakes), make a pot of tea, and eat on the sofa with an episode of Dr Who (if it’s raining) or a book (if it’s sunny – my apartment has no blinds yet, so if it’s sunny, I can’t see the screen!)

    20. hermit crab*

      I buy myself a muffin once per week, but the day doesn’t matter. The “morning glory” (bran/carrot/raisin/etc.) muffins at my neighborhood coffee shop are AMAZING. And if you have one with a latte then you don’t have to eat again until like 3pm.

      For a while, some of my coworkers at another location did “formal Fridays” (said location is pretty casual the rest of the time, so it’s like the opposite of casual Fridays). And some other coworkers wore matching clothes on Thursdays — this was ages ago — blue shirt and pinstripe pants Thursdays! (hi y’all, if I’ve outed myself with that!)

    21. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I usually treat myself to coffee on my way home from work on Mondays, since that’s the one day where I consistently bring work home with me to work on in the afternoon/evening.

    22. Lindsay J*

      I work Sunday-Wednesday.

      Sunday is my dress down day because management isn’t really around.

      Wednesday I don’t bring lunch and go eat out somewhere.

  29. Adam*

    I’m looking to be educated this week.

    I was watching this independent web series on youtube recently where one plot line had a male advertising executive interacting with his female assistant. I don’t know what his assistant’s official job title was, but he always referred to her as “his secretary”.

    At one point, the ad exec. was meeting with a potential client but it didn’t go weel. The client declined the agency’s business citing that their ideas were old fashioned and boring, and he specifically told the exec that he didn’t like the way he treated his assistant. Calling her “his secretary” was an old fashioned phrase and he all but said outright that he found it demeaning.

    Now, the truth is the ad exec. wasn’t treating his assistant very well. He was in fact a jerk and condescending to her, but on the lower key end of the jerk boss spectrum. If she were to write into AskaManager looking for advice, most commenters would roll their eyes, say he was a tool, and she should look for a better job, but it definitely would not be “worst boss of the year” material.

    But here’s the thing, the disatisfied client didn’t know any of this. He was very pointedly stuck on the word “secretary”, pointing out many times how he didn’t like the title and as a major reason why he chose not to do business with the exec.

    This struck me as kind of odd. I’m a millenial, and after thinking about it while I always knew what a secretary was, in my adult working life the only time I’ve heard the word actively used is in regards to political positions (Secretary of State, etc.) and people who would have been called secretaries years ago now have titles like Administrative Assistant, Executive Assistant, and the like.

    So I recognize that this is a convention that has changed and that the title Secretary is old fashioned and generally not used anymore, but has it reached the point that referring to someone as such is now demeaning? I honestly don’t know so I wanted to see what others thought.

    1. J*

      I don’t know… I’m a Millenial and the school I grew up going to used the title of “secretaries”

    2. super anon*

      Huh, this is an interesting question. I’m also a millennial and I don’t know if I would say the title of Secretary is demeaning, but I don’t really like it and never used it. I prefer receptionist because it is (i think anyway?) less gendered than Secretary. I also correct people who call our receptionist our secretary, because that isn’t the position title. I would be put off by someone in this day and age who called their assistant their Secretary, because it seems very old fashioned and seems to imply an odd balance of power, or possibly that the person doesn’t respect their assistant’s position and what they do? I feel like I’m not wording this correctly to really express what I’m trying to get – maybe someone who is more eloquent than me can jump in and save me!

      The other thought I had is that when I talk about the work my grandmother did back in the 1950s & 60s I called her a Secretary and would not call her a receptionist. Is that demeaning? Or that properly explaining her title & what she did in a time long past?

      This is interesting – I look forward to see the other comments!

      1. Lily in NYC*

        A receptionist is not a secretary or an administrative assistant. It’s “lower” on the totem pole.

        1. super anon*

          Really? Maybe it’s a regional difference in how the terms are used/or are used at all? In my org the term secretary isn’t used, and it’s very much a faux pas to refer to people with receptionist or assistant roles with that title. Receptionist is used for anyone who works in some sort of front desk capacity – our front desk position was called a secretary once upon a time, but the title was changed a lot time ago.

          I would consider an EA or an AA an entirely different job than a receptionist, so I would think it was very strange if someone referred to either as a secretary or a receptionist, because the roles are different I guess?

          1. Lily in NYC*

            A receptionist is the person who sits at the front desk, greets visitors, answers phones, and usually has a few additional duties. I have never seen that title used for any other sort of position. It is generally the most entry-level position in the administrative field. Then you have administrative assistant, then executive assistant (of course the titles vary).

            Secretary is generally interchangeable with administrative assistant. But I have never seen a situation where a receptionist is higher level than a secretary (I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but it’s not common). My office still used the term secretary when I started – I was hired as an executive secretary. But we’ve since changed out titles.

            Ugh, I am having lots of issues trying to type this comment – it’s been a glitchy week on this site!

            1. brightstar*

              One of my first jobs out of college was a weird hybrid. I was moved to the front desk and answered phones, while continuing with my original duties. But it was more the sign of a dysfunctional workplace than anything. They refused to promote me, I left, and they had to parcel my duties out to four people. My replacement was a true receptionist who just answered phones.

            2. super anon*

              Interesting! I had no idea that Secretary is interchangeable with AA. Honestly, I have never heard the term used in my entire working life, and I had been told by other people that receptionist = secretary.

              I feel like the world makes a little more sense now.

              1. Charlotte Collins*

                At one time, secretaries were expected to have quite a bit of specialized training. My mom was a secretary back in the 60s, 70s, and 80s. In order to work for a downtown office in a large city, she was expected to be able to know shorthand, type 80+ WPM, take dictation, proofread memos and letters, present a professional appearance, and do a lot of what a PA now does (booking trips, arranging her boss’ schedule, running work-related errands, handling some of her boss’ other communications).

                All a receptionist had to do in comparison was look nice, greet visitors, answer phones, direct calls, and take messages and deliveries.

                1. TootsNYC*

                  And WAY before that, a secretary was more like an executive assistant–they might actually act in lieu of their boss. It was a very prestigious position, indicating an absolute level of trust and authority. But that was long ago.

    3. HRChick*

      We have secretaries and Administrative Assistants and they’re different levels of work.

      Secretaries: Under general direction and following general procedures, incumbents in a secretarial capacity receive and screen telephone calls and visitors, use considerable judgment in providing factual information in response to numerous inquiries; establish and maintain confidential and administrative files and prepare summaries of data pertinent to the work of the supervisor or the office. The work typically requires a detailed knowledge of the programs, policies and activities of the employing unit.

      Admin Asst: Employees in this class are responsible for relieving an administrator of assigned administrative detail, for carrying out assignments on their own initiative without detailed instructions, and for obtaining facts on which decisions or recommendations may be based. They serve to increase the capacity of an administrator to carry out the duties and responsibilities of his/her position and are to be considered as an augmentation of the administrator rather than a separate entity in the organization of the agency. The level of this work is determined by the fact that the problems and activities dealt with either are of a moderate degree of difficulty or involve preliminary research on problems of major consequence. Recommendations made are concerned chiefly with specific cases.

      1. Sunflower*

        We have both too and this is pretty spot on. In a law firm, legal secretaries are called legal secretaries. They answer phones for their principals, do expenses, record their time, make travel arrangements, file/send things. Generally their work is fairly autonomous.

        We also have admins who do similar things like expenses and travel plans but they don’t answer phones for the people they support. They also tend to have projects or other ongoing things to work on.

        These are all different from receptionists who handle all incoming company calls and greet visitors. They also handle making sure meeting rooms are empty and occupied when they are scheduled to be.

        1. Charlotte Collins*

          I’ve had to explain to people that a paralegal/legal assistant is definitely different from a legal secretary… (It doesn’t help that this is one of those roles that can really vary from state to state. The paralegal I know is in a state where they have four-year degrees or other advanced training.)

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think it’s demeaning at all. Old-fashioned perhaps. I would definitely be more concerned about how he was treating her than his calling her his secretary.

      1. TootsNYC*

        It’s possible that, were this real life, the tone of voice the guy used when speaking of her would have been dismissive and demeaning. And that the client picked up on that but didn’t quite parse it out.

        And I’ll say that in my world, I haven’t heard “secretary” for a LONG time; I share a sense that it’s kind of an old-fashioned term, and slightly demeaning or dismissive. And that people who want to make their administrative/support staffers feel valued don’t use it.

        It’s a script, so…

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I think the last time I heard it was with Maggie Gyllenhaal and James Spader… and that was many years ago…

        2. TootsNYC*

          wanted to say: the term “secretary” with a modifier (e.g. “legal secretary” or “medical secretary”) gives the term more prestige and is the only place I hear it nowadays.

    5. HeyNonnyNonny*

      I think it would bug me, even if I couldn’t put a finger on why. Maybe because it’s part of that Mad-Men constellation of old-fashioned terrible work environments for women, and I’d half expect the guy to start slapping my bottom and calling me ‘Sugar.’ Or I’d worry that if someone’s so out of touch to use that title, what else is he not getting? I dunno, I’m a millennial too, and I’m just spitballing here.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      I’m an executive assistant and it really depends on how it’s being used. My former boss called me his secretary, but he was old and was used to the term. He was a sweetheart so I didn’t care. The ass that came here after him only used the word secretary when he was mad about something (he was always mad). He was purposely trying to piss me off so I pretended I didn’t notice. My current boss would never call me any other than her executive assistant. She’s much younger than my former bosses. AND, I sometimes call myself a secretary when I’m feeling unappreciated or annoyed. Like Wednesday! I hate administrative professional’s day and refuse to call it anything other than Secretary’s Day.

      The term can be demeaning because it’s obsolete and old-fashioned and has the connotation of women in the 60s who took dictation and typed all day. Admin roles are rarely like that now and I am at the same level on our org chart as a non-managerial AVP.

    7. Isben Takes Tea*

      It’s definitely not used in the general/causal way it was, in large part because of its gendered history. Unless it was part of a very specific job title, I would look askance at its usage because it at best it’s way behind the times and at worst it’s condescending.

      1. Charlotte Collins*

        And it’s one of those terms that shows how sexism affects status of language terms. (When men were secretaries, it was seem more as a PA-type role with a certain amount of status and prestige. Once it became more common for women to become secretaries, suddenly it was “women’s work” that wasn’t worth much.)

        1. TootsNYC*

          yep! Though, in one of the english mysteries (Agatha?) where I first ran across the term as being someone who was essentially a proxy for the boss, with great knowledge and actual authority delegated from the boss, the character was a woman, and nobody in the (fictional) story expressed any surprise.

        2. Isben Takes Tea*

          Right. There’s nothing inherently wrong with being a “secretary,” it’s just the word has cultural baggage now.

    8. EALeslie*

      I’m a millennial, and I’ve had specific experiences that have shown me that “secretary” is demeaning, or at the very least seen as much lesser than. I was working as an admin assistant in a 2-person department (I had a department-specific title, like public relations assistant or development assistant, etc.). As such my supervisor often gave me projects to handle for her. I was very much her assistant and not a secretary – I didn’t handle her calendar so much as we shared calendars to be aware of who’s on first, I didn’t do her correspondence for her, I handled meeting logistics but wasn’t fetching coffee or running errands. I helped her do her job, and often handled big clients and contracts mostly solo. Our director (also a woman), however, did NOT like this arrangement, and in 1-on-1’s with my boss would tell her straight up, “she’s an ‘assistant’ only because we can’t call them secretaries anymore. She should be acting like a secretary, and shouldn’t be handling so much.” At first this was all done behind closed doors, and my boss always stood up for me, but “secretary” was thrown around as an insult. Eventually the director would say these things about me in meetings with others, and it graduated into her saying these things openly in the office and to me directly. To her (she was in her 70s) the switch to administrative assistant was a PC move, and she was letting me know exactly how she saw me.

      1. TootsNYC*

        “(she was in her 70s)”

        This is why I think someone would assume that anybody who used that term was an old fuddy-duddy and wouldn’t be able to submit up-to-the-date work. (which was the client’s concern; he wanted of-the-moment vibe to the work he was asking for)
        Not the age; the insistence on that term.

        it would indicate a lack of flexibility, and also a lack of keeping up with today’s norms.
        I can’t say I

    9. Pwyll*

      I agree with you that it seems kind of odd what hold people have over the word. I spent about 10 years in admin/executive roles as a male, and I spent a big chunk of that time bemused by other people’s hangups over the word Secretary. I had one boss who would tie himself into a pretzel to call me anything but “Assistant” or “Secretary”. He even chewed me out once for calling myself his Secretary on the phone with our biggest client’s “Director of Executive Office Operations” AKA Secretary (which I did to blame myself for Boss’s mistake, to allow him to save face with Big Time Executive Client).

      Alternatively, I had a boss who would call me her Secretary all the time, when I was the Office Manager, and it was beyond clear she intended it to convey my status as “lesser” than the other staff in the office.

      So, I agree with Lily in NYC, it really depends on the user’s intention/tone/situation more than anything.

    10. SusanIvanova*

      Sounds like the client believes in the rule that you can tell a lot about a person by how they treat people subordinate to them. Maybe the other things were hard to pin down, but “secretary” was a specific thing the client could point at?

    11. Doriana Gray*

      I don’t think the title’s demeaning, but then I work with lawyers and have dealt with various legal secretaries of either gender.

  30. Jennifer M.*

    Okay, I had an experience last week. I’m starting a new job week after next. I had to stop by the new office last week for some paperwork for my security clearance. I was speaking with the woman who was dealing with it and there was someone else in the office with us. She’s looking at my address and says “Oh, you live in G? I live in D!” (both are very far away from the office, but D is north of G and the city of which both are suburbs is south of both). Then she says, “About 20 years ago, my husband and I lived over by L (a tiny bit south of G). Looks like we got out just in time right?”

    I was shocked and didn’t say anything. As soon as I got back to my current office, I verified with some coworkers that I wasn’t crazy. The woman had been making a coded statement about the current racial make up of L. She was saying, isn’t it great that she and her husband (both white, well, I’m guessing on the husband) moved before all of the people of color, including immigrants showed up. And the kicker? I’m not white. I’m mixed, but if you look at me, you are not going to think Caucasian you are going to think mixed (mixed with what, enh that’s harder to tell). So A) why would she think it is okay to say that out loud? and B) why would she say it to someone who looks more like the people she was trying to flee than her?

    The most generous spin I could put on her comments was that it was classist and referring to the economic status of the residents, but I know what L was like 20 years ago and it was rural lower income white, just a lot fewer apartment buildings than there are now.

    1. Laurel Gray*

      I read it as both classist and racist. But then again I was born and raised and currently reside in a city where people do exactly this when speaking of certain parts of this city or the residents of specific towns in the metro area.

    2. Temperance*

      That sounds really awkward. I wonder if she meant something about declining property values – which is also very classist and Not Great. I grew up in a place that was white and lower-income/blue collar, but had wonderful, highly-rated schools in some parts. As good blue collar jobs were outsourced, our property values declined greatly, so a more diverse group of people looking to leave New York/New Jersey descended upon our area, because it was cheap and the schools were decent and the crime rate was hella low. It’s not like that now.

      It’s more diverse, which is great, but we now unfortunately have a higher property crime rate and the neighborhood feel is gone, because they don’t have years and years of history and knowing each other’s grandparents etc. For example, growing up, one of my neighbors had broken into a few cars and siphoned gas. We all knew him and his family, and reported him to the police. He went to juvie for a period of time, came back, and never did it again.

      Unfortunately, there are people who blame the POC for the decline in the region when it’s mostly the lack of jobs and flight of all the educated, younger folks that are part of the decline.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Yeah, “declining property values” is a dogwhistle for “Those People moved in and ruined the neighborhood.”

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I bet she’s probably also one of those people who claims not to “see” race. Ugh.

    4. AnotherFed*

      I think you’re in the best position to judge subtext and know your area best, but I’ll offer one other explanation that fits my location. Around here, there is a major growing metropolitan area about 2 hours away that is swallowing up rural areas, turning them into bedroom communities, and knocking down the historical houses and barns to put up townhouses. Some lovely, tight-knit communities have had lower income people pushed out and so many new people who spend so little time not commuting have moved in that they feel like giant hotels rather than communities now. I’d have interpreted this person’s statement to mean that she’s happy to avoid some of the traffic/congestion/insanity of the bedroom community takeover. I’d personally go completely nuts if I had to hear the constant sounds of people (and that’s why I live on ~100 acres in the middle of nowhere).

    5. Roman Holiday*

      Yikes! It’s always surprising when people say stuff like that to complete strangers – you have to assume their opinions are so ingrained they can’t imagine anyone would disagree. I can’t remember if I heard it here on AAM or somewhere else, but someone suggested a response I’d love to use, “I hope you’re not saying that because you think I agree with you.” Or there’s always the Miss Manners’ classic of a blank stare and “wow”. Of course, since this is a new co-worker, it’s almost certainly easier to just let it go, but I’m sorry this happened to you!

    6. OhNo*

      First: Ugh, that comment sounds like 100% coded racism. I’m sorry you had to deal with that. It sounds like you aren’t the only one who interpreted it that way, so I’m guessing your reading of the situation was pretty accurate. Blegh.

      My city also has a couple areas (parts of the city, mostly) that are often used as code for both race and class. I’m white, and I live in an area that has a strong reputation for being a poor black and immigrant community. I have to say, when people make jokes to me about X part of the city, the fastest way to shut them up and make sure they never make a joke like that in my presence again is to look them in the eye and say, deadpan, “I live in X.”

      If you should ever have the energy and desire to call her out on this nonsense, perhaps you could make up a relative that lives in L? Next time she makes a comment about getting out of L ‘just in time’ (blegh), you could respond, “I don’t know what you mean, my brother/sister/aunt lives in L, and they love it there.”

    7. Florida*

      If she said, “Looks like we got out at the right time,” I might have responded, “Why do you say that?” (said in a curious manner). Then let her squirm while she tries to explain her racism in a way that makes her look non-racist.
      My feeling is that if you are going to be racist, classicist, or any other -ist, you need to do it out in the open and not in code. I’m not going to allow you the comfort of hiding behind your code.

    8. ginger ale for all*

      My aunt lived in another country for a while and says that phrase but for her, it’s true. Less than six months after she left, the country broke out in a civil war. It might be one of the few times that you can use that phrase without being called out for it in some manner.

      1. TootsNYC*

        well, there are these things (though some of them can be linked w/ racial changes)
        -drop in real estate prices
        -rise in overdevelopment
        -drop in livability (due to traffic, crime, pollution, change in economy)

        I’m trusting the OP that her knowledge of what’s happened in that region means her assessment of the coded message is real.

    9. neverjaunty*

      I’d be very concerned that the answer to A) is “because a lot of bigoted idiots work at this company and so she feels comfortable saying those things”.

    10. Laura*

      Whoa. Does she work in HR? If an HR rep said something like that to me in onboarding, you bet I’d tell my boss about it on Day 1. That’s classist and racist, and neither of those things belong in a professional workplace.

  31. super anon*

    has anyone ever been gaslighted by a coworker as a bullying tactic? i had an absolutely baffling conversation with a coworker yesterday that turned incredibly hostile on her part and it made me realize she has been gaslighting me for months and slowly undermining me without me realizing it. i thought i had been going crazy and that something was wrong with me so it feels good to put a name to her behaviour.

    anyway, is there anyway to overcome or deal this while i look for another job? dealing with her is beginning to seriously impact my mental health, but i need to stick this out while i look for something else so any coping techniques would be appreciated. i can’t no-contact her because she’s made herself the single contact point for everything in the office & access to our bosses (who are off site), so i can’t even tell anyone else about what has been happening to me.

    thanks!

    1. Prismatic Professional*

      I am so, super sorry that this is happening to you! When you say she’s made herself the single point of contact (even for your bosses) what do you mean? Are you unable to call or e-mail your *actual* boss? What would happen if you did that?

      One thing someone in a previous thread suggested was pretending you are an alien anthropologist studying this bizarre species before the End Of Their World. This has been super helpful to me.

      Also, check out Captain Awkward’s advice and rev up Team You! Sorry I don’t have more suggestions, just remember – it isn’t about you at all. Her behavior is all about her (obviously re: single point of contact). Good luck!

      1. super anon*

        When I call or email my actual bosses they more often than not don’t answer me, and I am incapable of booking any meetings or phone calls without her doing it for me. When I have asked or when she has booked a meeting for me, every single time she cancels it for something else.

        She’s done a very good job of isolating me from everyone and I hadn’t even realized it until now. I feel so stupid that I didn’t see what she was doing prior to yesterday.

        1. OhNo*

          Oh no, that’s a really rough situation, I’m so sorry that you’re dealing with that.

          Would it help at all to make a strong effort to contact other people directly, before looping her in on things? By which I mean, instead of just going through her (even though experience tells you that’s what will work), perhaps you can try on your own once or twice first, and only then go through her? Or is that something that you’re already doing?

          I mention it only because it’s possible other people in the office don’t realize what’s happening either. If they are getting the reverse of your situation (e.g.: “In order to contact Super Anon, you have to first contact Terrible Coworker”), they might need a nudge or twelve to realize that they don’t have to go through your coworker, either.

          1. super anon*

            I have been doing that – and it’s what prompted the conversation yesterday that made me realize she’s been gaslighting and isolating me. I had gone directly to my boss to ask permission to buy equipment with my budget that I needed after I had asked her multiple times and then told her what I was going to do. She was away (and didn’t tell me) for 3 days this week and the purchase was time sensitive, so I went ahead with the ordering process using the financial processes that had been described to me before. She then came to me yesterday to tell me that I am not allowed to do anything with finances, that I don’t have the authority to make purchases or sign for things (even though I do, I have multiple company credit cards and she was the one who did the paperwork to get me that authority months ago) and that everything to do with finances absolutely had to go through her, rather than the process I had been told before. When I asked for documentation of our policies so I could make sure I am following them properly she got very hostile with me, and then when I asked what I should do when she is away. she answered me with “oh you mean this week? yeah, my aunt died.”. When I asked her if we could have the conversation because I felt uncomfortable with the tone it had taken, she told me that she felt attacked by me and unsafe.

            It was just… utterly bizarre and a complete overreaction to my questions. I was very respectful in my interaction with her. She’s done this to me multiple times too, but I didn’t realize how out of line she was.

            1. E*

              Would it be possible for you to discuss the problems with your boss at your next meeting? Without directly pointing to her as the problem, explain that you are confused about the company policies and are having difficulties completing your duties because meetings keep being cancelled or unavailable. The bosses may need specific examples, at which point you can explain and mention that coworker’s involvement often slows down your progress. Perhaps offering the suggestion to improve the process by always directly going to bosses?

              1. super anon*

                I don’t have regular meetings with my bosses – I actually have never met with them alone without the problem coworker present for the 11 months I have worked here. I am the only one at my level who doesn’t have regular meetings and I can’t get them. If I have an issue I need to speak about with my bosses, my coworker will take it from me to present to them at her regular meetings and I am never involved. When I ask for regular meetings I don’t get them, because I have to go through the problem coworker because when I email my bosses directly they don’t respond to me.

                It’s all very frustrating.

                1. E*

                  Wow, I can understand that. And since you don’t meet with the bosses regularly, you can’t explain that you aren’t able to complete the tasks without their approval. I’d still suggest that whenever you are able to get that next meeting that you bring this up, although I see that it might be quite some time. The setup of this reporting structure sucks.

            2. Anna*

              I think in this specific incidence you need to talk to HR. She has said two words that mean she can now go to HR and complain: You have made her feel attacked and, especially, unsafe. That last one is the scariest because it implies she is being very calculating in the words she uses. This is definitely one of those times when the word “documentation” should be used. Started CC’ing your boss on emails about meetings, save emails from her, if she sends you something, CC your boss and ask for clarification. The only way gaslighting stops is by shining light on it. Manipulative people rely on your sense of embarrassment that you misunderstood or don’t realize what’s happening. Now that you do, it’s time to bring it out in the open.

              1. Anna*

                PS It’s also entirely possible the boss isn’t responding because of things your toxic coworker has told them. It’s time to put a stop to her controlling your interactions with your boss.

        2. Sadsack*

          Maybe next time she cancels email her and your boss explaining that you have been scheduling a meeting about X for the past however many months and ask what can be done to get it to stay in the calendar next time? You have to know your boss for this, I guess. But bringing the repeated cancellations to your boss’ attention may help.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I haven’t been gaslighted by a particular co-worker, but I’ve been gaslighted by an entire cult-like workplace. I got out of there as fast as I could.

      1. Anna*

        Omg! I am going through this now and it is absolutely horrible! I feel like I’m going insane and have visions of quitting! Can you share more about your experience and what happened?

    3. SusanIvanova*

      Coffeecup got fired, not for doing less work in one day than I could’ve done just by having an extra cup of coffee, but for gaslighting our remote coworker. I don’t know the details but it was along the lines of implying that Coffeecup was highly valued by the rest of the local team (ha! I think every one of us had refused to work with him because he simply did not get the things we relied on done!) and that we *didn’t* think highly of RemoteCW’s work – which is pretty much the opposite of the truth. I’d guess he was trying to make RemoteCW think he was the only one having a problem with Coffeecup, and since RemoteCW was isolated it worked for a while.

      It got to the point it was affecting his health, and that’s what made it easy for our manager to get rid of Coffeecup. If you can’t get to your boss, can you get to HR? This is the sort of thing they will take notice of.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, gaslighters thrive by isolating people. The more OP can loop other people in, the better off she will be.
        OP, never underestimate even the power of little things. Be seen by Gaslighter talking with other people, even if it’s briefly. Say hi/good morning to as many people as you can. Yes, the mailman/other visitors do count in this exercise.

        Actually start an on-going conversation with your boss, but also be seen talking to your boss more.

        The more you spread yourself out, the less power this person has. And try to keep in mind, she covertly believes she has no REAL skills, if she had real skills she would not need to bully/marginalize someone else.

    4. Julie Noted*

      Yep, been there. It’s not rare, unfortunately.

      I had a colleague whose continuing employment on the public purse is morally scandalous, she is that incompetent and abusive. Gaslighting was one of her favourite tactics to cover her deficiencies. She uses it against people at her level and slightly lower; people above were sucked up to and fed lies; people several levels below were just openly shouted at. She works in a coordinating area that the rest of the organisation depends on, and regularly fails to complete tasks given to her, follow through on actions agreed to in meetings, or stick to documented procedures. When called on it, she flat out denies that said discussion/agreement ever happened as described, despite multiple witnesses to the contrary.

      I was running major projects that needed the buy-in of the area she (for want of a better word) ‘led’. My tactic to deal with her crap was document everything – e.g. after each discussion or meeting, send an email setting out what we’d each agreed. She either ignored the email or said “no, that’s not what happened’. I ask (again, in writing) for her to provide her understanding of events and she wouldn’t respond. Never committed to any position, just that whatever I said was wrong. Eventually she accused me of harrassment, the substance of her claim being that I communicated by email rather than over the phone. That brought things to a head. The charge was dropped, but my boss was livid (on my behalf) and told the CEO that we would no longer work on any projects involving this person’s area while she was in the job. Her manager and the CEO were too pissweak to deal with the toxin in their midst (her manager admitted to mine that she’d consciously decided not to performance manage this woman out of fear of being accused of harrassment herself) so nothing happened.

      My boss and I left the organisation not long afterwards to bigger and better things. Another half a dozen staff have left the area concerned. (A similar number had quit in the 2-3 years beforehand rather than continue to work for this person). Toxin remains and the organisation carries on with one of its key areas barely functional.

      Take home points: documentation helped make clear who the problem was, both to the gaslighted victims and outside observers; however, if you find yourself in a cowardly workplace where managers won’t deal with bullies, get out. It’s so much better outside. Take care of yourself, and good luck.

  32. RKB*

    My coworker has been gone since mid-February. We haven’t been given a definite reason why, but on our schedule her shifts have been labelled as sick days.

    We got our new schedule and it appeared she’d be back for the spring, but nope. All her shifts were just given away and she’s still labelled as sick.

    Because I don’t know what’s going on, I feel it may be inappropriate to send her a get well soon card or something like that. I tried to ask my supervisors but they weirdly ignored my email, which makes me wonder if something else is going on. I just know that if I was ill for that long of a time, I’d appreciate that kind of gesture.

    Should I try asking my supervisors again?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      No, just leave it be. There could be a lot of things going on like admin leave, criminal issues, illness, etc but they clearly don’t think it’s any of your business.

      1. RKB*

        True. I guess I forgot to mention that she does have lupus (I have Crohn’s, so it came up once when we were discussing chronic illness) so I was assuming she was in a flare up. But it’s also very true I should MMOB. :-)

        1. OhNo*

          It is a nice thought, though. Perhaps instead, you could plan on doing something nice for her if/when she returns, to express that you’re glad she’s back and feeling better?

    2. PollyQ*

      I vote sending a Get Well card. I was on disability a few years ago, and was kind of hurt not to receive any kind of get-well card from any of my co-workers, even the ones I considered friends. Your bosses may be limiting information out of respect for your coworkers privacy, but if she’s listed on the schedule as sick, I think it’s safe enough to assume there’s a health issue and to send a card. Worst-case scenario is you’re wishing someone a specific kind of good thoughts that they don’t actually need.

      1. Sadsack*

        Sorry, I agree with Katie. You don’t know she is sick, they are just putting that in the schedule. She may be sick, but they may just be using that to indicate she is not in.

      2. Emilia Bedelia*

        Maybe just a “thinking of you” card as opposed to a “get well” specifically- even if it is another sort of issue that’s keeping her out, I think “miss you around work, keeping you in my thoughts, hope to see you soon,etc” would be nice.

        1. TootsNYC*

          this is my vote. Whatever way you have to contact her (Facebook message, which i think you can send even if you’re not “friends,” but it may go into some supersecret inbox, so maybe not; whatever).

          Say, “Hey, I was thinking about you just today while I was doing [some thing she taught you/whatever]. I hope you’re well. Miss you!”

          And leave it at that.

        2. Liza*

          Don’t do a “Get well” card! But a “Thinking of you” card would be fine. Here’s my reasoning: if she has any kind of illness that one doesn’t recover from, a “get well” card will just rub her nose in the fact that she’ll never be fully well again.

    3. Guinness*

      Although it could be a lot of things, my first thought was super-secret jury duty. I had a friend that was out for months but couldn’t really talk about it and because HR didn’t really have a classification for that, it ended up being coded as sick leave internally.

    4. it happens*

      If you miss her, send her a note and tell her you’re thinking of her. You can make some comment on the note that the schedule says out sick.

    5. Rebecca*

      Twice over the years we had a disappearing coworker. One was for a bad drug test, off work for mandatory classes or whatever she did during that time (sadly, when she got back, she tested positive again and was let go), and the other time someone went to jail for shoplifting.

  33. Dangerfield*

    I just lost three days of work due to a computer error, and it is not recoverable. Happy Friday! At least it’s a long weekend.

    1. insert name here*

      Oh man, I wish I still lived somewhere where May 1 was a holiday. Enjoy the long weekend!

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Are you absolutely sure it’s not recoverable? Is it a file you saved over or a file you just accidentally deleted? If it’s a deletion or reformat or unbootable operating system, you can probably still save the document(s).

      1. Dangerfield*

        Absolutely certain, unfortunately. Ah well. Worse things happen at sea, and it is partly my own stupid fault for having not backed it up adequately.

  34. ThankYouAAMCommunity!*

    I’m staying anonymous and I hope that’s okay, but I have some great news to share: I got a new job!

    I signed the offer a week ago and my boss has announced the hire to the rest of the team today. I’ve been working on contract with this company for over a year, so when an in-house posting came up for the work that I was doing, I applied, had the interview, and got the job offer about a week and a half later!

    I have a feeling that they were keeping this posting open for me since I was, in a sense, an internal hire. However, AAM’s posts (and its commenters) have been invaluable in landing this job:
    – AAM’s advice on how to prepare for an internal interview was great
    – AAM’s understanding of the job offer and salary negotiation process was helpful in calming my nerves
    – A fellow commenter’s recommendation of the book “Women Don’t Ask” really helped me get over my fear of salary negotiation.

    When I got the job offer, they offered the salary at the very top of my requested range, but when I asked if there was “some flexibility” on the salary, they bumped it up by another $2.5k the following day!

    Thanks so much to AAM and all you commenters for helping me prepare for this!

    3. Shell*

      Well done!

      Out of curiosity, how did you justify the “some flexibility” request? I usually feel like if you name a range and the offer was within that range, then the onus is on you to justify why you want it higher (whether “higher” means higher in the range or higher out of the range). I always feel awkward about the justification part :D

    4. CM*

      Congratulations! And nice job getting an extra $2500 a year by just asking for “flexibility!”

      1. ThankYouAAMCommunity!*

        @Shell

        When it came for the salary negotiation I did have some justifications prepared, but the HR person on the other end didn’t ask – he just said “Ok, I’ll see what I can do” once I brought the subject up and came back next day with the revise offer.

        I was working off of what other commenters have said here that often there’s more money in the budget, but that the money is only available if candidates ask. Luckily, the HR rep was of the same mindset that “it doesn’t hurt to ask”.

  35. Gov't Career Counselor*

    I would love to be able to serve my IT clients better, but other than learning Python for fun (omg, so many cool things! Look what I can do with the data!), I don’t know much about tech. What would you advise a non-tech person to do to help a tech person find a job?

    1. I would like to be able to help them get at least good entry level jobs in software dev, programming, web dev, IT security, networking, etc. (NOT technical support for Big Computer Company).
    2. I know technical resumes are different and emphasized skills, tools, languages, platforms, etc. But how to make them excellent?
    3. Are cover letters even a thing? I don’t want them wasting their time.

    I would really appreciate any help! Thanks!

    1. LQ*

      IT friends I’ve had seem nearly universally shocked when I mention following up a good job interview with a thank you email. And at least 2 of them have gotten jobs because of it. I’ve also had many conversations about not being so swooned by the arcade room that you miss the fact that everyone is working 80 hours a week and then you’ll never be home in time to raid.

      1. Gov't Career Counselor*

        Oooh yes! The raid thing!

        Seriously though, I really appreciate your suggestions!

        1. LQ*

          Yes, absolutely the raid thing. :)
          I don’t want to imply that they got those jobs directly because of thank you’s but that helped build relationships and keep them in mind. One person got offer the job months later when the guy who had initially had taken it was shown the door, they decided they needed someone who was more of a cultural fit even if they didn’t have quite enough experience, hence my friend, who was remembered for a great interview and a very professional thank you note. Who has done fantastically there.
          The other ended up with a hey this guy might be a good fit for a consulting gig which was really more in line with what he wanted any way.

    2. RG*

      Cover letters are a thing. Also, I’d applying for jobs that are primarily programming, they should have built something small at some point. Even if it’s a silly project for school, or something super simple like a text based calculator, they should do something that isn’t just a tutorial. While the manager may never look at the actual project, they still get experience in actually building stuff, learning new aspects of the language and general concepts, and the problem solving approach needed for programming.

      2. Dawn*

        THIS! Programmers need to be submitting stuff to GitHub or solving challenges on HackerRank or Coderbyte or something. If they’re web devs, they NEED to have a snappy looking website with examples of their work.

        There are so many IT people around that hiring all looks pretty homogenous, so anything they can do to stand out by showing examples of their work will put them ahead.

        Also, definitely emphasise soft skills like communicating well, speaking clearly, being professional, following up with interviewers, etc. IT employees tend to skew more towards “The IT Crowd” than “Mad Men” so that’s another way to differentiate themselves from the competition.

  36. lionelrichiesclayhead*

    What are everyone’s thoughts on a couple working for the same company? Main concern is the “all eggs in one basket” issue. Company is large (350,000 employees) and while we would likely be on the same campus with about 7,000 other people, we would be in different buildings so the closeness is not an issue for me. Company is fine with employee couples as long as they work in different departments. I’m just wondering if, financially, we should really stay away from this if possible.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Spouse and I work for the same place– the caveat is that it’s govt, which is notorious for stability. I think any other field I’d probably try to steer clear.

    2. J*

      It’s pretty common in my area (company town). I wouldn’t worry too much about it but I would save a hefty rainy day fund just in case.

      1. Judy*

        Most couples with both of them working at the same company in my experience have structured their lives in case the company has RIFs, closes a location, etc. Of course, I’m talking about engineers, so pay is generally fairly high. Like taking a 30 year mortgage instead of a 15 you can afford, but paying on the 15 schedule, so that you can reduce expenses fairly quickly. Like working to get to a situation where you can buy cars for cash rather than loans, so that there are not ongoing payments.

        My husband and I are both engineers, of our 20 years of marriage, we’ve worked at the same large companies for 15 of those. It feels much freer now that we aren’t.

    3. BeeBee*

      My workplace has several couples working. The couples are in different departments.
      But same as the person above, it’s the government.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I think there can be challenges, but some of that depends on the company and on you two. I’ve worked with my spouse a couple of times, and I think the most difficult thing is if your spouse gets treated badly by someone that you know—you don’t want to be the annoying overly protective spouse who says “Hey! You can’t treat my spouse that way!” but it’s also super-awkward to have to interact with someone who treats you well and your spouse not so well. Since it’s a large company, that may be less of an issue, especially if you work in different departments.

    5. Roman Holiday*

      My (fabulous) boss and her husband work for the same company, but in very different capacities and business units. Downsizing/layoffs are a real threat in my industry right now, but it’s unlikely they’d both be targeted since they’re in such different areas. Incidentally, they are a perfect example of a married couple working well together – they arrive and leave together and consult with each other occasionally on their respective areas of expertise, but if you didn’t know, you’d never realize they’re a couple. With a company of the size you mentioned, and the provision that you’d already be in different departments, I don’t think it should be a major concern.

    6. Lily in NYC*

      I think it’s fine! We have a few married couples here and we are much smaller than that (400 people).

    7. Colette*

      There were many couples working at the formerly-large, currently non-existent high tech company I started at. If you can keep your work/professional lives separate from work, I think it’s ok, but I would prioritize making sure you have a healthy emergency fund in case of downsizing, and don’t keep retirement funds in company stock.

    8. ThursdaysGeek*

      I worked at the same place as my spouse and it was fine. Well, it was fine until the company was no longer stable. It was much smaller, and we decided we didn’t want to be unemployed at the same time, so I moved elsewhere. But for a company that large, it seems like it could be safe enough.

    9. KS*

      Husband and I worked on different teams in the same 20 person work site for 3 years. Never caused any issues for us.

    10. BRR*

      I think there are times when it’s ok but I would try to not do it. My best friend is an auditor at a big four firm and her husband was a consultant at the same firm. It’s stable as a company and the departments are different enough that I think that was ok but still uncomfortable in the back of my mind.

  37. Mockingjay*

    Meeting Minutes Saga – not so much anymore. Thank all the Powers that Be!

    We’ve had a number of small improvements, reducing stress immensely.

    1) Intrepid Colleague and I aren’t doing as many minutes. We began to refuse minute taking requests, citing ongoing work. Amazingly, people were okay with it.

    2) My remote manager (another state) recognized the difficulty we have on our contract with a demanding customer onsite and no corporate presence to facilitate issues. Two weeks ago he reorganized us into 3 teams and designated leads – I am one. We now have a structure and limited authority to deal with local issues. I am reading extensively in Alison’s archives on how to be a good supervisor for my new reports. [In response to one of my posts last week, Alison provided links to The Management Center. Great resource!]

    3) Several of us have created a voluntary working group to improve things in our local office. We have agreed to stay focused and work on one concrete item at time, since our time is limited.

    We still have lots of problems, but for the first time in a long while, I don’t dread going to work.

    1. misspiggy*

      Hooray! I’m so glad to hear this. It had seemed like your work problems were utterly intractable.

    2. Jean*

      >We still have lots of problems, but for the first time in a long while, I don’t dread going to work.

      Great to read this! Enjoy your new and improved situation, and kudos on using the links Alison posted to expand your skills and knowledge.

  38. Confused Fed*

    OK, I have a question about how Feds are supposed to treat time off (of course the official websites are as useful as a pile of goo)– I am salaried and exempt, with a set schedule. I am not allowed to work extra/’overtime’ hours, but if I leave work, say, an hour early, I have to take that out of my PTO. Both of these things seem to be against what being ‘exempt’ means, right? So do we just do things differently here (I’m fairly new), or is my department doing it wrong? Any resources that are actually helpful for this?

    Thanks, all!

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Each agency has its own standards for how they do this.

      What you might want to ask about are credit hours – I think those are pretty common across different agencies. They’re different than comp time or overtime – both of which can be paid out. Credit hours are little more informal – for example we can accrue up to 24 by working extra hours, and then use them if we need to take off for an appointment during the day.

      You can also check into flexible work schedules. I’m on a flexible schedule where I have to work 80 hours in a two week pay period, with flexibility. So I might get stuck in traffic one day and then stay late the next to make up for it. Or if I miss a day but don’t want to burn sick leave, I can work extra hours for the rest of the pay period.

      Ask your manager what options are out there. A good one will work with you to use the system to help you maximize your work/life balance.

      1. Confused Fed*

        Apparently we might be moving to a flexible schedule soon, so that’s good– but that means it’s kosher to require PTO if I need to leave an hour early even if I’ve worked the rest of the week? Maybe I’ve just got some crazy cognitive dissonance going on since that doesn’t match the definitions that I’ve learned here!

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Yes it’s allowed. We’re salaried but there’s some weirdness with federal employees in that we also have to work 40 hours a week in general. I mean, I’m fairly senior and still do a timesheet for crying out loud!

          1. Confused Fed*

            Huh, OK. Ha, I think I just needed someone who speaks fluent AAM and Fed to explain it to me! Thanks Katie the Fed, should have known you’d come through!

        2. AnotherFed*

          FYI – the government definition of flexible schedule is probably not what you think of when you hear flexible. Check the OPM definitions of the alternative work schedules so you understand what you are getting into – gliding is probably what you mean, not flexitour.

          1. Lefty*

            Came here something similar- “flexible schedule” is a flexible term for the government! :)

            Since we are public-facing and require customer service during certain hours, our supervisor does not allow use of a flexible schedule. It’s a major point of contention when some “field” offices get to do it and ours doesn’t, but that’s another gripe for another thread.

    2. BRR*

      Other comments are more thorough and helpful but with PTO because it’s not legally required companies can make whatever rules they want about it. You might be classified as exempt because it’s the government and they are more strict about people being appropriately classified but also follow other rules. It’s also common for company’s to unofficially define exempt as 40+ hours a week. Where you never get to take an hour if you need to (and they suck).

  39. Emilia Bedelia*

    Silly survey of the day: When you receive an email about free food up for grabs somewhere, do you wait before going to get some, and if so, how long? My personal tendency is to finish whatever I’m doing at the time, then “wander” over (usually 5-20 minutes after) but I’m curious what other people do.
    Today I received a “donuts next to the copy room” email and was the first to take any 15 minutes after the original email, but yesterday there were lunch leftovers next to my desk and people showed up seconds after the email. If I had more time and food on my hands I’d be interested in a study investigating what kind of food draws people, and how quickly, but alas, I have a real job to do :(

    1. Bowserkitty*

      It depends on the workplace. We have 25+ hungry residents here and food doesn’t last long so I’ll walk down to the breakroom as soon as something is announced. I have a coworker who does the same thing, and I just saw a pie chart on Buzzfeed called “Times it is acceptable to run” and “When food is announced in the office break room” took up 70% or so of the chart. XD I had to send it to her.

    2. ZSD*

      I wait until my cup of water is empty and then head to the kitchen, so I can refill my water cup and just happen to pick up the food while I’m there.

      3. Rebecca in Dallas*

        Haha, that’s what I do, too! It depends on what the food is of course, but most of the time there are a bunch of people who show up seconds after the email goes out. I don’t like to hover around waiting, so I’ll wait and then go to get some tea and be like, “Oh, there’s cake! Well, while I’m here…”

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Like Bowserkitty, if I don’t go right away, it’s gone. I tend to go right away only for healthy food though, because that way if I wait to get doughnuts and they’re already gone then oh well, I guess I’ll be healthier today :)

    4. super anon*

      i go as soon as i get the notification because if i don’t everything will be gone in a matter of minutes. my coworker and i on different floors also look out for each other and alert the other to food on our respective floors, which is kind of fun.

    5. Katie the Fed*

      Where I work, if you send out an email about free food, it’s like dropping a sugar cube next to an ant hill.

    6. Jen RO*

      If I really want the food, I go there straight away, because there are ~150 people on my floor and treats never last long!

    7. CM*

      I think about going right away, but then my social anxiety kicks in and I avoid the vicinity of the break room for at least half an hour… then when I think everybody is gone, I poke my head in to see if there is anything left.

    8. Violet04*

      It depends on what I’m doing. If I’m on a call, I’ll wait until I’m done. Otherwise I’ll go over in about 5-10 minutes.

    9. LCL*

      Where is this mythical workplace that free food is around long enough for someone to send out an email notification?

    10. Kristine*

      I full sprint for the kitchen as soon as I open the email. There’s about 300 people in my office but the food is never enough for all of us, so if I don’t get there right away then it’ll be gone before I have the chance.

    11. 'Nonymous*

      I do the same – I finish what I’m working on and “wander” over about 10-15 min later. I’m usually the first one to take food, though sometimes being the first makes me feel self-conscious.

    12. SL #2*

      Our free food lasts all day and sometimes into the next day too. There’s food so regularly that we’re all very picky about what we’ll get up to eat (treats and snacks, not so much, but if there’s free lunch, watch out). Which probably makes our entire office a little spoiled. Whoops.

    13. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I do… but mostly because I’m overweight and I don’t want people chuckling over the fat girl being the first one at the donuts. So if I go at all, I usually wait a bit.

    14. Sarah Nicole*

      If there’s something I want, I’m not shy about going right away if I’m able to take a short break. But I also work in a place where we have people of different cultures bringing in things to share and regularly offer, so I got over being shy. I love it! However, as the admin, if I order and set up lunch for the entire clinic during a meeting day or something like that, I wait until everyone else has made a plate. I don’t know why, but it just seems right to me.

    15. Not Karen*

      In my office if you don’t get up as soon as the e-mail goes out, you miss it, so it depends on how hungry I am. :) I think a better approach is to NOT announce food via e-mail and just let the people who happen to wander into the breakroom have first dibs (which is what I do when I bring food in).

    16. Emilia Bedelia*

      Update: I stopped by after lunch again and there are STILL donuts left. I like my job, but I don’t know if I can trust a bunch of people who leave half a dozen donuts on a Friday morning.
      (There was a BOSTON CREAM left, people. What??)

    17. Mallory Janis Ian*

      If I’m hungry, I go as soon as the email comes, or otherwise it will be gone. If I’m not very hungry or don’t care much about what they’ve announced is being offered, I’ll take a little longer to mosey on over there. Usually within about a minute of an email being sent, though, you can see a dozen or more plate-carrying people converging on the location. We’re in a 4-building complex, so you’ll see people from three buildings coming down the sidewalks carrying plates.

    18. Lily Evans*

      I used to joke that the best way to get me into a room was to send a free food email announcement because I was always one of the first ones there. I would usually wait at least a few minutes though, so as to not seem too eager (and at my old job people would sometimes sent the email, then put the food in the staff room, which led to me awkwardly pretending I was just there to use the bathroom while they were still setting the food up).

    19. Laura*

      It depends on the food/event. I was recently invited to a retirement potluck for a woman I’ve never met. Obviously I didn’t go. But if it involved chili (like a recent event we had!) I would have been there. I am so down for a chili cook-off.

  40. all aboard the anon train*

    Can I get advice on whether my work history looks like job hopping?

    I graduated in May 2008 and couldn’t find a job in my industry, so I took an admin job (which was really more of a secretarial job) that turned out to be toxic – small doctor’s office that paid me $15K before taxes, no vacation or sick days, no health insurance, made to do personal errands and in small town that was was so dead end I had to quit or I knew I’d be stuck there forever.

    I didn’t get a job in the industry I went to school for until 2.5 years after I graduated (which means I’m basically 2.5 years behind in terms of work experience for my field). I’m looking for a new job after I hit the 2 year mark at my current company in June, but I’ve had friends say that I should stick it out here for another year to pad my resume.

    Graduated May 2008
    Company 1 – Admin job (non-industry) 01/2009 – 09/2010 (Quit job, total 1 year, 9 months)
    Company 2 – Industry job 12/2010 – 11/2011
    Promoted 11/2011 – 11/2013
    Promoted 11/2013 – 06/2014 (total 3 years, 6 months)
    Company 3 – Industry job – 06/2014 – Present (almost 2 years)

    1. ZSD*

      I don’t think it looks job hoppy at all. And you got two promotions in three years! That shows you do great work.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      If you are listing your total time at Company 2 as Dec 2010-June 2014, with sublistings for each position/promotion, then I don’t get a job-hoppery vibe at all.

      1. 'Nonymous*

        Agreed. And I would list the total company time and the sublist each position/promotion. (With the way it’s currently listed, it took me a moment to figure out those were all for the same company.)

    3. Graciosa*

      What is your industry?

      In mine, we tend to look for longer runs than two years (three is acceptable, five is better) but I recognize that this is tied to the nature of the work and the nature of my profession.

      What have you accomplished in your current role?

      I look for people who moved on because they truly, legitimately outgrew their roles and the potential for growth with their then-current employers. Again, in my role, this tends to take at least a few years, and frequently much longer.

      I’m not evaluating tenure, however, as much as I am looking for signs that the person has mastered a role. So the real question is what evidence do I have in your resume of that kind of mastery.

      Promotions and significant achievements are the benchmark for this in my mind.

      If your resume says All Aboard did her job for two years (even a fairly good job), that doesn’t impress me much.

      If your resume says All Aboard did a phenomenal job for two years (with fantastic achievements), I’m likely to believe you needed to move on to continue growing in your career. That impresses me.

      In early stages of someone’s career, I’m looking for evidence that they are focused on building skills that will be the foundation for their later career. The reason job hopping is an issue is not because there is a problem with changing jobs in and of itself. The reason is that there tends to be a correlation between a pattern of job hopping and a pattern of thinking that overlooks the importance of developing critical skills that generally require a certain time in role to master.

      If more senior people in your industry would say you have mastered your current role, and you can demonstrate this with a good record of achievement, don’t worry too much about two years versus three.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you’re fine. It basically looks like 1 year, 3.5 years, 2 years. You’re fine. But at your next job, I would stay for at least 3 years.

    5. BRR*

      It depends on your industry and what the jobs you’re going to be applying for are asking for. Overall I don’t think it looks like job hopping at all. Promotions mostly don’t count as hopping. You can even leave the admin job off your resume if you’re short on room and don’t feel like it adds anything.

  41. Mimmy*

    Any policy analysts in the house?

    I was talking with a couple of colleagues the other day and one woman said she thought policy would be a good avenue for me. Others have made similar suggestions. It’s probably a ways off for me because I’d probably have to go back to school for that (the Law & Policy course I’m in now is heavy on the law side, not much about policy) and I’m still considering other possibilities. So my questions:

    – Typical tasks / projects
    – Skills and characteristics of successful analysts
    – Education

    I recognize that policy is probably a very broad field and that it probably ranges from regulations promulgated by federal agencies (such as the Department of Health & Human Services) all the way down to procedures for determining eligibility for a program at a human services nonprofit.

    I’d probably be most interested the affect of federal or state policies on programs and services for certain populations, e.g. people with disabilities.

    1. anon for this*

      I’m a policy analyst at a nonprofit advocacy organization.

      Projects tend to include writing briefs outlining problems and positions, writing blog posts, and generally trying to make others in the advocacy world and legislators aware of our issues and proposed solutions. Once in a while I talk directly to legislative staff and/or legislators.
      We also have senior policy analysts, who do the things I mentioned plus talk to the media, get interviewed by journalists, write op-eds, etc.
      We’re all also responsible for brainstorming solutions to policy problems.
      We work a LOT with people in other organizations; there’s a lot of coalition work.
      We do some event planning for when we’re hosting meetings, webinars, and conferences.

      Skills:
      Ability to analyze well
      Writing well and quickly
      Managing politics within and between organizations

      Education:
      This really varies by the organization. If you’re in law school, that’s definitely adequate preparation. My boss has a PhD in political science. My education is in a completely different field; my organization is kind of willing to get people up to speed once they start the job.

      1. Mimmy*

        Thank you, this helps!

        I always forget that “policy” is related to “politics” and can entail working with government officials and possibly legislators. That might scare me off. I did meet with my town’s mayor with a volunteer advocacy group; it wasn’t near as intimidating as I’d expected.

        1. Mimmy*

          Forgot to add: I’m not in law school; I’m pursuing a graduate certificate in disability studies; the course I’m taking is an elective. I already have an MSW.

        2. anon for this*

          Well, I’ve only worked directly with legislators a couple times. It’s not that common, and I’m sure there are organizations where it doesn’t happen at all. (I’m in DC, by the way. If you were based in a less politics-focused city, you might never do the political stuff.)

          1. 'Nonymous*

            Forgive me for butting in (and don’t feel obligated to reply), but do you have any advice for an aspiring policy analyst who is DC-based?

            I really want to lobby Congress, and ideally for a non-profit in my field (although I’m not against working for a lobbying firm either), but it seems like all the job listings I’ve looked at want people who already have 5+ years of Hill experience and have established Hill contacts. It feels like I’m in a catch-22 where I can’t get hired without experience and can’t get enough experience where I am now.

            My current entry-level job involves advocacy messaging–primarily drafting action alerts and blog posts, and managing our coalition list-serv, but I also carry-out the google/research tasks of our policy team (comparing bill text when it comes out, analyzing policy changes in the bills, etc.). Are there any skill sets that I should be developing if I want to move up?

            1. anon for this*

              I wish I could help, but I’ve been at this for less than a year myself! I guess we both need to set up some information interviews. :)
              You might be using the term “lobby” loosely, but keep in mind that 501(c)3 nonprofits can’t do much lobbying. They have to have a 501(c)4 set up, which I think most don’t. So saying you want to “lobby Congress…for a non-profit” might be a contradiction in terms, if you mean that you want to spend more than 10% of your time lobbying.

            2. Jean*

              If you’re in the DC area, check out RespectAbility(dot)org. I think they’re hiring for summer interns in policy (and several other areas).

              I have no idea whether experience lobbying local or state-level elected officials can help you get hired on the Hill, but Annapolis (capitol of Maryland) is close to DC, and there are lots of MD & VA counties in which special needs activists have been advocating with Boards of Education.

              Reply to my comment if you want me to give you an offline email address. I’m no expert but I’ve been around activist special needs/special ed parents for several years.

            3. Laura*

              I’m in DC, and started out as a policy analyst, and worked my way from that to lobbying (internal move in my org when a junior lobbying position opened up–since they knew me and trusted my work and knew I was a good cultural fit, I was able to skip the customary “Hill experience required” crap). I’ve since worked my way up after changing orgs to running the entire federal shop of a fairly large association. So it’s possible without Hill experience! My one advantage is that I came to DC to the policy analyst position as a subjet matter expert (for something technical).

              I’d say your current role is a great start. Drafting action alerts that I presume summarize your policy positions is a valuable skill, and were I hiring, I would recognize as “counting”. As of course is the policy analysis you’re doing on bill text, etc. I’d say as a next step, if there’s any way you can start covering external briefings or coalition meetings (volunteer when staffing is short, or others who normally go have conflicts, etc), even if just to take notes, you’ll be able to start developing external relationships in your organization’s industry. That can help with networking and eventually possible lead to some Hill contacts. Before I moved to DC, I hated the idea of networking, and was sort of baffled by it. But the nice thing about this being such a relationship-driven town is that it’s really, really easy to network. No one will bat an eye at being asked for their card, most folks will take you up on a request to have coffee, where you can pick their brains, ask for advice (they will likely be flattered), and build your network. Heck, you might even make some new friends.

              So yeah, all those things. And really, even if there are no briefings that need coverage, start looking for them related to your org’s subject areas, and see if you can go. If it’s an 8 am one where you can go before work hours, then all the better, no need to ask anyone. DC has tons of briefings, whether on the Hill or at a think tank, so it’s a good way to meet more people (go early if there’s coffee or snacks, and network). Good luck!

            4. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Honestly, that’s a job you won’t get early in your career (at least for anything other than a tiny organization). To lobby well, you’ve got to have some degree of gravitas and most people don’t have it a few years out of school. Five years experience is when you’re just maybe beginning to have it, and for many people it takes longer. So don’t get discouraged by the job listings you’re seeing — just use this time to do work that helps to build your understanding of congressional politics, how legislation works, and how policy advocacy works, as well as — just like others have said — your network of hill contacts. Then you’ll be really well positioned when it is a more appropriate time to start going for those jobs.

            5. EW*

              Another DC-based policy analyst here! To Mimmy’s original question, I’ve found that people in this field have a pretty wide range of backgrounds. Masters and/or PhDs are common (especially in econ), but I also know several people with backgrounds in law, social work, direct service, etc. So I wouldn’t assume that you have to go back to school for this.

              I’m currently working in the policy department of a large federal agency, but previously worked as a policy analyst at a small nonprofit/think-tank. (And I’m considering a public policy master’s degree, but currently am doing pretty well with just a BA.) My area of focus overlaps some with disability policy, so it sounds fairly close to what Mimmy is interested in. A few other disability-related organizations to check out: National Academy of Social Insurance (offers paid internships including in disability policy), The Arc, and the Consortium of Citizens with Disabilities; and both of those last two are coalitions so you could also look at their lists of member organizations.

              “Anon for this” described the tasks/skills of policy analysts really well. Basically, you want to develop a deep expertise in your given area so you are extremely well versed in the issues, the problems that need to be solved, the potential solutions, their pros/cons, who and which organizations take different stands on them, etc. Then it’s a lot of reading, writing, staying current on the issue, developing or fine-tuning proposed solutions, analyzing their effects, finding new & different ways to describe your (or your organization’s) position and cite facts to back it up. And then – very critically – disseminating that info, whether through writing or events or speaking to the media or becoming a go-to resource for other researchers/advocates/legislative staff. Also, depending on the organization, if you’re in a nonprofit you’re likely to work on a lot of grant proposals and grant reports. At its most basic level, that comes down to making a convincing pitch for why your issue and your work on it are important.

              I did a good bit of working with legislators (in my prior job), but not “lobbying” per se – as many here have explained, it’s not all the same. To a large degree it depends on your particular organization or company. Mine was nonprofit so we weren’t lobbying or even advocating, so much as sharing the facts and helping educate people on our issues. There’s a very fine line between education and advocacy, and probably a fine line as well between advocacy and lobbying.

              ‘Nonymous, your current job sounds like a great springboard for this! Writing blog posts, helping manage a coalition, and researching bills are all important and very relevant tasks. Other things to consider: if possible, see if the other researchers or writers on your team will let you work with them on a publication (a policy brief or report), especially if you can get your name on it as a co-author. Or make a pitch to turn a blog post that you wrote into a short publication. Also, networking! Becoming familiar with the major players in your field is huge: organizations, people, coalitions, etc. – and what types of ideas they typically propose. If you can do any public speaking or presentations, that’s great experience too.

  42. Bowserkitty*

    The woman who decided/announced my layoff (along with the several dozen others last year) was either fired or let go herself yesterday.

    There’s something ironic about this but I’m so happy where I am now and I had a lot of respect for the woman. It’s jarring that somebody with her CXO title could be let go, however.

  43. Sydney Bristow*

    I need advice for dealing with a semi-direct report that I don’t like. He’s been with my company a little over a year and has worked with me about half the time. In summary, I find him insincere and I don’t respect him, but his work is good. At various points throughout his time here, he has told me in a totally insincere way that he wants to do “whatever it is that I’ve done to be so successful,” actively undermined me (and when I discussed it with him, he said he was very stressed and started crying), and lied about various things that aren’t important enough to merit a serious discussion or PIP, but which are enough for me to lose respect for him.

    When we have scheduled meetings, I can usually prepare myself to have a poker face, but I’m concerned that my dislike is showing in our unscheduled interactions. I’m also concerned that I’m evaluating his performance too harshly because of my dislike. Overall, as I mentioned, his work is good, and he will likely be reporting to me for the foreseeable future. So–any advice or tactics that I can employ to try to become more neutral to him?

    1. The Bread Burglar*

      If its enough for you to lose respect for him, then it should be enough to warrant a discussion. Ideally I would have brought it up with him at the time. Or in the future if he lies about various things then I would raise it at the time. It might not be worthy of a PIP but several are. Plus in the moment saying “Freddie, you said that we were at y with this project but we are actually still at x. I am sure you didn’t mean to lie but as your manager I need to know where the projects are specifically even if that means telling me its behind schedule, etc.” Whatever he is lying about.

    2. Cristina in England*

      I feel like past AAM OPs have asked similar questions that also boil down to “this employee violates the social contract and/or is unethical but has some basic competence so I feel like I have to give them a pass on a technicality”. No. You’re right to dislike him and you’re right to have that colour your view of him professionally. Lying and undermining can surely fit into a professional evaluation somewhere along with positive professional interactions, courtesy, and integrity.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Not real advice I am afraid, but I have found that no matter how neutral I have been the behaviors got worse. If this does happen (maybe it won’t) don’t be second guessing yourself. If you catch yourself thinking “gee, this is getting worse” you are probably right.

      Focus on the work itself. This has helped me a lot even with coworkers. Years ago, I worked with a woman who was the total opposite of me, like day and night. We were so opposite that when we sat down to break there was nothing to talk about. But we worked okay together, the boss said he could put the two of us on, or he could bring in four people. We both agreed to focus on the work and we agreed that it was important for the other person to have a job/income. That was the best we could do.

      Next step. We develop personal opinions of the people we work with. That is just human nature. Sometimes you can make yourself use an evidenced based approach and that might help you to remain objective. If you don’t see hard evidence of a possible problem then let it go. I have also asked myself if one of my fav people did this, would I get ticked?
      By the way, some of the group told my boss that they KNEW for a fact I did not have favorites in the group. Of course, I had favorites, but I constantly asked myself, “I want to tell Bob x or tell Jane y, would I talk to everyone in the group this way?” I found that I could be candid, but I was careful about how I expressed my concerns. I made sure I was explaining things where necessary.

      It sounds like he is lying to you in casual conversation, not work conversation. If this is the case the next time you find proof of his lying, you could say something like, “You know, Bob, you told me that you wanted to do whatever I have done to be successful. One thing that is really important is integrity. This means in non-business conversations as well as work conversations. People pick up on little discrepancies as we speak. If they find too many they begin to wonder about our integrity. And in turn, they begin to wonder about us as professionals. Little discrepancies can erode our reputations as professionals over time. This is something that we have to make sure we are not doing if we want to be successful.”

  44. ThatGirl*

    My annoyance for the week: a co-worker dumped a bunch of work on my team, which is fine, it’s the sort of thing we’re supposed to do but we’re doing an extra step to help take a load off him, basically. Except then he’s called in sick the last two days (looks like today too) so we can’t quite finish all of it because we need him to answer some questions. The list of questions has now gotten quite long.

    (I know he can’t help it if he’s really sick, it’s just irritating.)

    1. Laura*

      That’s so tough. One of my coworkers has been out for weeks (today I found out that she has some kind of autoimmune disease). Her work has been distributed among various staff, but it’s really hard to pick up projects that she’s been personally involved with.

  45. SaraV*

    Anyone else loathe the day you see the pop-up “Your password will expire in x days. Would you like to change your password now?”

    No, it feels like my fingers JUST got the “muscle memory” down to put in my password without really thinking, and now you want me to come up with a new one that fits your crazy parameters?

    *sigh*

    1. LQ*

      I always aim to change on a Monday. And I have a strategy for making sure it fits in the parameters so I don’t have to flail around at what was the password now… I go…oh it’s April that means my password structure is blahblahblah….

    3. Lore*

      Yes! Especially since we start getting the warnings two weeks before the password expires, and it was only good for three months to begin with, and they’ve gone from “you cannot repeat any of your last six passwords” to eight and now twelve.

    4. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Urgh, yes. I use a sandwich method, where the first and last parts of the password stay the same and the center part changes, and I cycle through something memorable, like characters from a show or sports teams. Not sure if it would work with your system, but it’s my workaround for the muscle memory issue!

    5. Tennessee*

      Oh, wow, yes. I HATE having to change my password, just after I’ve gotten down to muscle memory. We get 3 reminders during about 6 weeks before we get locked out and I never change until that 3rd reminder.

      1. TootsNYC*

        Ours change every 3 months. And at 2 months, we get a reminder every single day.

        I do know other people who use the season (like, PassWordFall2016) and change just the season. Makes it easy to remember what changes.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it depends on how often it comes up. If you’re in an organization that forces you to change your password every 30 or 90 days, yes, that’s really annoying. Once or twice a year, though, nope—not annoying.

    7. Kelly L.*

      Yes! I’m running out of things I can remember without thinking! LOL. At least I’ve finally been here long enough that I think I can start recycling them.

    8. Total Rando*

      This literally popped up this morning. I’ve got 14 days and I intend to use as many of them as possible…

    9. Sarah Nicole*

      Yes, I’m currently putting off one of these at the moment. I think I have until next Friday, which means I might complain about it on next Friday’s thread as well. Lol

    10. SusanIvanova*

      Once our password rules got to the point where you needed upper, lower, symbol, and number, I went to a scheme where the first half is with the shift key down, second half up, and then swap which half is shifted when it’s time to change: ABC!def2 becomes abc1DEF@. That gives me twice as much time with the muscle memory I’ve built up.

    11. Fleur*

      My co-workers and I cycle using dates. So the first part would be the password we’re used to and then we tack on the month it was changed at the end.

    12. NotASalesperson*

      I have to change mine every month and I get 7 days of warning…and those 7 days include weekends. It’s getting more than a little tiresome.

    13. CollegeAdmin*

      I had one system that used to make me change the password every 60 days – super frustrating. I ended up using colors and changing the vowels into characters or numbers. I knew my vowel replacements by heart (e.g., a = 4 or whatever), and then I’d just stick a post-it note somewhere innocuous that said “pink” or “purple” or “orange.”

    14. TootsNYC*

      since I have to have a numeral in my password, i just change that, and only that, each time.

      Usually you can’t use any of the previous 6 or 8 passwords, so I just cycle through 0 to 9.

      I know an IT guy who would simply change his password 6 times that very day until he had cycled through 6 of them.
      Like, maybe his password was:
      Angus1910, and you can’t use any of the last 6.
      So when it was time, he’d change it to Angus1911, then immediately to Angus 1912, etc., until he could go back to “1910.”

      I thought it was mildly brilliant

      i have passwords at lots of places, so I made a list of all of them, and when I have to change my network password, I go change it to match at all the other places. One of them requires a symbol, and I didn’t realize that so didn’t work it into my basic password. For them, I just use the same password and add the same symbol to the end of it (like, I always use * or !).

      If I were to do it over again, I’d put a symbol in, and I wouldn’t repeat letters (which I did for a personal password I have).

      It means I use much the same muscle memory. And if I forget which number I’m on now, I don’t have that many to cycle through.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I had a boss that used a similar system. I called it a counting system for the lack of a better term. We all had to know the password and use it at random times, when he may not have been there or forgot to tell us the new password. So we could guess if it was not xxxxx1 then it was xxxxx2. We never had a problem with being locked out of the system when we needed to get into the system.

  46. Athletic Event*

    Weird or not weird?

    It turns out my boss and I have competed in the same (athletic event) for 5 years in a row. We’ve finished only a few minutes apart sometimes.

    She has never mentioned doing these AEs even though we would talk about them up in our weekly meetings. We both compete in them so it’s a natural topic of conversation that comes up quite a bit.

    I would say we have a warm relationship, while she is generally known to be a cold, apathetic person.

    Not going to lie, it irritated me that she didn’t say anything. Like, why do you pretend to not participate in the same sh-t as me? I wasn’t going to pace with you; I wouldn’t train with you…I respect professional boundaries and we are not friends. I would have *maybe* waved from afar had I seen you or maybe ignored you. I don’t want to see people outside of work either! At the end of the day, it’s just another one of the many weird things she does.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Eh, I’m going to go with not weird. From what you’ve said, she doesn’t seem to place that much value on personal relationships in the workplace, so might not automatically look to her hobbies as a way to connect with others. I could imagine an activity like this being what she does to really disconnect from work. And even though YOU know that you wouldn’t be pestering her to do the events together, she maybe doesn’t; or she trusts you, but not others in the office who might find out if she’s more open about it.

      On the whole I’d say it’s pretty unlikely that she’s aggressively avoiding sharing something in common with you out of some malicious purpose.

    2. Jen RO*

      A bit weird, but there’s no way she could realistically know that you *wouldn’t* want to interact with her. I mean, I don’t agree with her approach, but I can understand it.

    3. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It could be due to what I would call a corollary of Hanlon’s Razor…let’s call it Cosmic Avenger’s Axiom: never assume malice when awkwardness will suffice.

      In other words, you said she’s kind of cold, so maybe she just doesn’t want to share, or is a bit….overzealous in trying to keep things professional. Alison has warned about being too chummy or collegial with direct reports, so maybe she just hasn’t found the right balance yet.

      Or maybe she didn’t get to mention that she was at that particular AE the first time you brought up being there, and after that it felt weird to mention it. (Like in many a sitcom plot.)

      1. Anna*

        Yes to the last sentence. That’s what I was thinking. She failed to mention it the first time and now it just seems weird to bring it up.

      2. Athletic Event*

        I like it. Sitcom plot indeed.

        I’m moving on from this place shortly (but will still work with her occasionally) so, oh well.

    4. CM*

      Weird, but, meh. Further evidence that she’s just weird about interpersonal stuff with coworkers.

    5. ginger ale for all*

      She just might want to keep her personal and work lives separate. Just wave hello if you ever see her at one of these events.

      1. Athletic Event*

        Other than going to bars with the interns, I’d say that she would keeps the two separate :)

    7. Athletic Event*

      Thank everyone!

      I’ll chalk this up as being a little odd but move on from it mentally.

  47. Nobody Here By That Name*

    How do you best advocate for yourself after a horrible boss leaves?

    For context: my boss of the past few years told me he’s about to take another position. This is likely to result in the restructuring of my department (as opposed to finding someone to replace him). He recommended that I go to the head of HR to say what my preferences for the restructuring would be.

    My history with this boss is that he has been awful. I’m not the only one in our department who feels this way. He is a micromanager in the extreme, belittling and abusive to those who work for him, and has no spine when it comes to trying to advocate for our department. Part of this has resulted in a stunting of my career growth, where any progress of mine co-workers has either not been announced to the company or flat out not allowed because he didn’t want to “make waves.” Again, he’s done the same to my co-workers who are of different ages and backgrounds than me, so it’s not a matter of me not getting the hint that I’m not qualified for progress. The one time I WAS promoted I was told not to tell anyone.

    Naturally I’ve been looking for another job, but with him leaving I feel I have at least some chance to speak up and try to improve my current situation. I’m not hoping for the moon – this company is too dysfunctional for that – but for a fair hearing of my status and what I’d like my career growth to be.

    What I wonder is what is the balance, if any, of talking about what I currently do and have done and why that means this restructuring should include a promotion for me, and clarifying how much of what I and my co-workers have dealt with in terms of our stunted progress? My concern is that my boss may have given his opinion that none of us are qualified for more responsibilities or promotions when that’s more about his issues than ours.

    Moreover, is it even worth mentioning that my view of stunted career growth is an issue for me as I look at my future with the company? Not in terms of issuing an ultimatum, but saying that as I look at the situation now I don’t see opportunities for me to grow and that that’s a concern for me?

    Thanks in advance for any advice.

    1. The Bread Burglar*

      I wouldn’t bring up your boss or the stunted growth issue. While true and unfair, it to me falls into the realm of never talk badly about a previous place in a job interview. It could be true but the potential for people to look badly on you is too high. Especially if HR or higher up see him in a better light than you do (which is sometimes the case in these situations).

      I would stick to giving your recommendation as well as a strong compelling argument about why you think you (or a colleague) is a good fit to take over by presenting your experience (with them and others), education, soft skills/qualities, etc.

      I wouldn’t raise the stunted growth issue now. It runs the risk of appearing like you either are trying to get them to give you the position because you haven’t been promoted much there or that you are a flight risk. Which if its as dysfunctional as you say it is might mean they look/try to replace you sooner than you’d like, etc. Instead try to sell why you would be good at it. And you could always ask your boss what he thinks of you applying. If you don’t get it then speak to your new manager about the progress you have made while there and where you would like to go and see if the new manager can help you plan more training, experience, etc.

      1. Nobody Here By That Name*

        Thank you! Good point about the problem of how it could come off like speaking badly about a former employer. Especially since my soon to be former boss will still be working for the company.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I think you can bring up your desire for career growth in the future. You don’t have to blame boss for the fact that it hasn’t happened, but I don’t think you need to hide it either. Just be focused ont he future, and what you want, but don’t let bitterness creep in.

      “I know that things will be different in lots of ways now, with possible restructuring. One thing I hope will be different is, I would like to have a forward-moving, upward-moving career path. I’ve wanted a promotion, particularly into this area, and feel that I’ve deserved it because I have these accomplishments and skills, and can do these things for the department/company. I hope that will be a part of my job here now.”

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, don’t be the first person to say Old Boss was an idiot. But if asked directly, I would answer the question asked.

      As far as your concern about Old Boss telling people that you all are not qualified to promote, I am sure that anyone hearing that would think, “wtf”. If everyone is not qualified to promote then that has nothing to do with the group and EVERYTHING to do with their immediate leader. Why didn’t he develop them? Why didn’t he work with them more? Why did he allow this situation to continue on and on with no attempt to remedy it?

      In short when he tells people that you guys are not qualified for more responsibilities or promotions then he has just told volumes about his abilities as a boss. And most people realize that.

      For the short term, tell your new boss that you have been with the company for x time and you want to take on more responsibilities and be of more value to the company. Then settle back and wait for the new boss’ response.

      1. Nobody Here By That Name*

        That’s one of those things where it’s part and parcel of the dysfunction of this company. A good company absolutely would look at a situation like this and realize my boss is to blame. But this company is being run by somebody who doesn’t think that way. The head of the company is all about the bottom line and numbers and doesn’t care about the human element.

        Give you an example, there’s someone who’s even worse than my boss is – so bad that people who work for him average about a year and a half before they quit – and this guy is given nothing but promotions.

        That’s also why I’m keeping up with my job search. My hope here is simply to see if I can make the situation I’m stuck in be a tiny bit more palatable until I can make my escape.

        But the comments here have been very helpful. I’ll keep the frustration out of it and focus on what I’ve done and would like to do now that the opportunity for restructuring has arisen.

  48. Anon On This One*

    I applied for a job that I think I’m perfect for and now I wait to hear from them. I got in early, so the wait is long. Job doesn’t close for a couple more weeks. As weird as it is, the position does almost the same exact thing I do now, but for a lot more money and for the city. Anyway, I wait with baited breath.

    1. The Bread Burglar*

      Good luck! But yeah try to put it out of your mind or think that you didn’t get it. As AAM says its better to assume you didn’t and then get a lovely surprise call then wait and drive yourself crazy (that last bit might be paraphrasing but I think thats the jist of it).

  49. TotesMaGoats*

    Going in an hour to have a probably uncomfortable conversation with a colleague and her boss. I’m supposed to get an apology for her being so unprofessional (and “mean girl” style bully) to me. We’ll see. Good thoughts desired.

    Applying for a job at OldJob. Completely different department. Much better atmosphere. Really hoping to get back there but scared that the less than a year at NewJob will taint things.

    1. CMT*

      Oof, that sounds from the outside like the kind of conversation that only serves one party. She’ll feel better for apologizing but it might not help you any. Good luck.

      1. TotesMaGoats*

        And I shouldn’t have had such high hopes. I should’ve known that divas don’t live in the land of reality. One of the most half-a##ed and insincere apologies that was caveated by her basically saying that I don’t have experience doing this and should bow to her experience. Except I do. I’ve got almost 10 years of graduate school recruitment experience and close to 15 with adult students. This is the 3rd day this week that I’ve gotten upset and cried at work. Not around anyone though.

        Added to that, my boss barely knows what I do because she’s the next head honcho down from the president and has much bigger issues on her plate. (it’s not a normal reporting structure and is sort of temporary) She also doesn’t have a nurturing bone in her body. So, I don’t feel at all comfortable going to her upset about this. Thankfully, there are 2 or 3 or 7 mojitos with my name on them tonight. And some xanax in the cabinet.

        And I still have to give up 2 hours of my saturday to do a recruitment table at a large local festival. I need a hug and a drink.

        2. TootsNYC*

          The one thing I might think is that if i were the person who said, “You need to apologize” to her, I would want to see that apology, and I would want to know that you don’t feel it qualifies, and you don’t feel apologized to.

          So if you came to me and said, not in a way that asks for nuturing but in an informative way, “I thought you might want to see this apology, since you were the one who gave her the directive to apologize. I don’t think it is much of an apology, and I’m not accepting it, really. I’m willing to not continue to make waves over this, but I’m still mad. And I don’t think she followed your orders well,” I’d want to know that.

          Maybe it would be best to not say, “I’m not accepting her apology,” but I think if you gave it to me, I’d know you didn’t like it.

      2. TootsNYC*

        I’m not so sure she’ll feel better for apologizing. Someone who needs to be made to apologize, who doesn’t come forth with that apology all on her own, is not going to feel good about apologizing.

        I’ve been in a position in which I absolutely owed someone an apology, and you better believe I didn’t need anybody pressuring me about it.

  50. Dom - Pre Employment Testing Question*

    I have a quick question. I applied to a HR Assistant position and was called in to do some pre employment testing. I was told that there would be 4 written timed tests and that there was really no way to prepare. But since I am really interested in this position I would like to try to do some preparation. Any ideas on what would be on the tests? Or thoughts on how to prepare? Thanks for any advice and feedback.

    1. Dangerfield*

      You could look at the exercises temp agencies give their staff before they sign them up? Excel, inbox/task prioritisation, diary management?

    2. LQ*

      If it is a temp agency or you think they will be computer testing, I’d make sure you know how to navigate the stupid ribbon in stupid office. Some of those tests don’t let you do things the actually efficient way of key-binds or right clicks but limit you to stupid ribbons.

      I’d also make sure you have a good handle on current terms for the industry. If you know the thing and do the thing but don’t know what the thing you are doing is called it can be sort of a problem.

    3. Crystal Vu*

      I’ve taken some of these tests for related positions. Things I’ve seen:
      1) Questions about general HR topics like FMLA, CFRA, ADA, exempt/nonexempt, CBAs.
      2) Alphabetizing and grammar (yes really!)
      3) Microsoft Word, Excel, and even Powerpoint (and LQ’s right about knowing how to use the stupid ribbon)
      4) Payroll questions, looking up salary bands and calculating next appropriate wage increase, other fairly basic math calculation-type questions
      5) Paragraph-long questions that have to be answered by looking at a sample page from a reference manual and using its info to answer the question correctly

  51. SJ*

    I work in higher ed in a sort of weird and specialized role — essentially, I’m a jack of all trades and a master of none. It’s a small school and very understaffed, so I end up fielding a lot of work that isn’t in my job description, and I’m happy to do it, but I think it makes my role a little hard to understand. (Even trying to describe it to people is difficult. “Well, I do A and B and C and also D, mainly, but also X and Y and Z sometimes…”)

    It’s also the sort of position that’s unique to where I work, and most universities and colleges don’t have it (or if they have the same job title, the position is often wildly different from what I do in particular), so I also don’t fall neatly into any of the overarching offices common in higher ed (such as Admissions, Student Life, Alumni Relations, what have you).

    When I started the job several years ago, I was sold by my boss on this job being great BECAUSE I get to do so much and I work in an important office on campus, and that it would let me go anywhere I wanted — but now that I’m job-searching outside of my school (there’s no room for advancement here), I’m honestly finding that having so much experience doing so many different things is working against me, namely because I don’t fit into any neat higher ed “box.” I can’t just search for the same sort of job, but in an advanced role, at other schools because the same sort of job doesn’t really exist. But when I write great cover letters (thanks to AAM!) explaining how my experience would translate to a role in, say, Alumni Relations (just using as an example; I’m not married to wanting to work in AR), I never get called for interviews. I can’t help but feel that it’s exactly because I don’t come from a background in Alumni Relations or whatever particular office I applied to — and I don’t blame anyone looking at resumes. If you have a stack of resumes to get through for an Alumni Relations role, of course you’re going to probably narrow it down to people who actually come from Alumni Relations, you know?

    Another big problem is that a big part of my experience is writing-based, but I don’t want to work in Marketing or Communications. I want to work in a role that’s managerial and relationship-focused and lets you get out of the office instead of sitting in front of the computer all day writing stuff, and I have a TON of experience with that (I’ve worked with basically everyone on my campus at this point), but like I said, I’m not going to compete with someone who has that same experience but also comes from an Alumni Relations background.

    I feel stuck. I think it would be easier if there were a particular office I wanted to work in, and I could focus on how to build experience to fit that office in particular, but there isn’t. I work in a city with lots of higher ed schools, and I’ve seen so many interesting jobs in a number of different offices I’d be great for — I know the TYPE of job I want, and that type of job doesn’t exist in just one place. I don’t want to limit my options by only applying for jobs in Alumni Relations or what have you when there are so many great jobs in different offices that I’d be good for. I just don’t know how to get my foot in the door. I’m taking on all the extra responsibility that I can at my current job that will hopefully make me look more attractive on my resume. The thought of having to start all over in an entry-level job in a different office just to get the experience that will help me advance makes me want to cry, honestly. I HAVE the experience I need to excel in these jobs, and my resume and cover letters are honestly really good, but I just don’t have the right offices under my belt, I guess.

    I don’t know. I guess I just wanted to vent.

    1. Caledonia*

      Ooh interesting. I was a Clerical Assistant for a uni dept and assisted various teams (under/post grad, school website and some others).

      You can definitely answer the conflicting deadlines/communication question. Your asset here is managing to work with so many different teams on a daily (or weekly or whatever) basis and how you communicate your capacity/workload to others.

      Another thing I’ve noticed when applying for other uni jobs is highlighting my experience in that area. You used Alumni Relations – so if you applied for an AR job, have your application/interview answers highlight your experience in the role you’re doing for that job.

      Good luck!

    2. Dawn*

      I’m a little bit in this boat myself, tho not in academics. What I do is look at the job posting for the company I want to work for, then do some research on the company itself to glean some insight into what’s important for them (via the company website, Glassdoor, that kind of thing), and then cherry-pick my experience on my resume. So if I’m applying for a job that emphasises Project Management at a company that puts a lot of emphasis on working as a team, I highlight all of my accomplishments that show that I’m great at PM and great at working as a team. Continue in that vein for positions that emphasise writing, vendor management, presentations, etc.

      I’ve done a LOT of stuff in previous jobs but really, a resume is a “highlight reel”- so it’s important to have the highlights be extra intriguing to hiring managers by making them as relevant as possible. Then when you get into the interview you can start pulling on all of the other experiences you’ve had to answer interview questions.

    3. fposte*

      Yeah, I’m pretty unsuited to any other job at this point.

      Can you use the university network to talk to people who are currently in roles you might want to move up to? That might give you an idea of how best to pitch a generalist background toward a specialist direction.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        I think this is smart. A lot of lateral hiring in my institution happens because someone works with Jane on a project, thinks Jane is generally awesome, and would rather hire a known-awesome person who could gain the content knowledge, than an unknown with the content knowledge already but no guarantee of awesomeness.

        I really relate to your question, SJ, because every job I’ve ever had more or less comes down to “My boss needs some random thing to get done, and I figure out how to get it done.” I’ve lost out on some neat opportunities because I don’t have the depth of knowledge that other candidates might have in a specific area, but having relationships and people who are willing to vouch for you as someone who can marshal their diverse skills in any direction has been key in finding new opportunities.

    4. College Career Counselor*

      Maybe it’s been said already (I’m late to Open Thread), but how about University Community Relations? Civic Engagement? Community/Volunteer Service? I agree that you shouldn’t have to start over, and it’s hard to compete with candidates who “look like” what they’re looking for. Keep trying, however, because you never know exactly what the hiring committee is looking for (even if the job description seems fairly clear). My own experience on the job market has taught me that the hidden/internal pressures sometimes weigh against the looks-good-on-paper candidate.

    5. Steph*

      I’m in a similar situation, and it blows. I work in higher-ed fundraising, and while I have the title of someone who is frontline, what I really do is mass marketing communications (which I love!). However, the growth opportunities for me here are super limited. I really want to pivot out of non-profit work and into a true marketing role at a private company or agency… and I get some interviews but nothing has stuck. I’m six years out of school and bring “sell” my employer well enough to bring in over $2MM a year in gifts… but I keep getting passed over for roles in industry that I know are at the same level as my role here. I don’t want to be a coordinator, my skills are better than that.

      It’s super frustrating and you aren’t in the only one in this boat.

  52. F.*

    Good, Bad & Ugly of my workweek:
    Good: Took yesterday off for a little medical appointment and some personal financial business. My husband and I relaxed and enjoyed ourselves and even ordered pizza for supper (a rare treat for us!)
    Bad: The largest project in our area, on which we have been working for a number of clients, has announced that, due to falling oil prices, nearly all construction will be going on hiatus until oil prices rise. This is not what our already beleaguered company needed right now. The region is already being hurt by the shale industry drying up, and jobs are getting scarce.
    Ugly: A very promising job lead vanished into thin air. I got hit with that and the other bad news above this morning. I was fighting a panic attack because I was thinking that I will never get out of this cesspool of dysfunction. However, I told myself that I must take it one day (hour – moment) at a time. So, back to work (sigh). TGIF.

    1. Emilia Bedelia*

      Bad: my landlord told me the wrong address for my house (it’s a weird situation with different units and such). So, all my new employee stuff, including my first paychecks, health insurance info, 401k info, etc was sent to an invalid address. :|
      Good: Payroll was AMAZING about it! They cancelled the check, waived the direct deposit waiting period, and direct deposited my first 2 paychecks for me. So helpful! Also, there were donuts today and they’ve had my favorite salad dressing at lunch all week. It’s the little things!

    2. Jules the First*

      Good: one of my senior colleagues introduced me to her girlfriend today (already a milestone, because she’s a great believer in keeping work and life separate), and even better said I’m awesome at what I do.

      Bad: useless boss came by this morning to let me know that he’s not ignoring my request to replace my Chinese-speaking team member, he’s just ignoring me right now. And yes, he actually said that.

  53. Ann Furthermore*

    I’ve had my resume up on Career Builder for about a month, with quite a bit of activity. I’ve had a number of people reach out to me for consulting work, which I’m not willing to get back into at this point — it would have to be an “in case of emergency break glass” situation for me to return to that. Last week I also posted my resume on Monster, and as part of the sign up you can have your resume reviewed by one of their experts. So I figured, why not, and signed up.

    A day or 2 later I got an email saying I have a very impressive skill set and work history, but my resume does not pass the “30 second test.” Then of course there were some offers to pay for having my resume revamped, starting at $99.

    Has anyone done this? Is it a scam? I’ve never had trouble landing interviews with resumes I wrote myself. I’m not the world’s most prolific writer, but I’m pretty good. On the other hand, last time I was in the job market was before companies started using applicant tracking systems, so maybe these services know of some tricks that I’m not aware of.

    2. Graciosa*

      Yes, it’s a scam.

      A really lousy one as it preys on people who are frequently desperate for work, fearful, and short of money.

      Follow Alison’s free advice available on the site (or seek a consultation with her rather than a resume mill scam if you are willing and able to spend the money).

      I’m sorry you’re getting these.

      1. Ann Furthermore*

        Yeah, my first thought was also “scam” but since Monster is a known name I wondered if they had expanded their business to include resume services as well. I know they’re not as big as they used to be though. It’s been awhile since I’ve been looking for a job…it’s a whole new world.

        This is disappointing. I landed a great job through Monster about 15 years ago.

      2. Ann Furthermore*

        I just did a bit of searching on Google, and ran across an article about this. The author said that the service actually used to be legit, and that Monster partnered with another company to offer this service a few years ago. The company was well-respected and had an “A+” rating with the BBB. But then that company was acquired by another company that’s pretty shady and their BBB rating is an F. So he could no longer recommend using the service.

  54. Jillociraptor*

    My area at work is going through a rough time. Huge budget cuts, layoffs, general perception that the higher-ups don’t understand or value what we do. I really want to be supportive and I feel really sad that the people around me are hurting but…

    Every meeting has become a catastrophizing mess about how everything is SO UNFAIR and SO CRAPPY and EVERYTHING SUCKS. It’s a huge downer to constantly be stuck in negative emotions, and I’m feeling so frustrated that my colleagues won’t move to action. I understand that people process things like this at different speeds, and that it’s important to have space to vent and share your feelings. But some people seem actively hostile to strategizing about where to go next, and extremely committed to feeling sorry for themselves. It’s exhausting!

    Any advice for both adjusting my mindset to continue to have patience and grace for my colleagues, AND helping to nudge them to break out of the victim mentality?

    1. Talent Management*

      Look into the Bridges model of transitions. You can find it in the book by William Bridges called Managing Transitions. It is all about how people react to change and stressful situations in different ways. It has recommendations for getting people through the tough times (ending and neutral zone) into a more positive place (beginnings). There is a lot of information about it online as well.

      1. Jillociraptor*

        Thank you, this is really helpful! It’s very illuminating to be able to read about what others might be feeling when I don’t exactly share the feelings. I appreciate the rec!

      2. PollyQ*

        Am I a terrible person for immediately thinking/hoping that the Bridges model might involve chucking people off of actual bridges?

  55. Colorado CrazyCatLady*

    I’m looking for a free online course in Business Statistics. I found a bunch but was wondering if any of you have personal experience with one that you’d recommend? I’ve never taken a statistics class in my life.

    1. Jade*

      I don’t know about courses, but when I took statistics, we used a textbook called “Statistics for People Who (Think They) Hate Statistics” by Neil Salkind. I’m terrible at math, but that book was pretty helpful. It had lots of plain English explanations and visuals to help you out. Also there were all these terrible “dad jokes” about statistics in it, which I mention only to convey exactly what kind of book you’re getting into here

    2. Lady Kelvin*

      I could recommend looking at Coursera. I haven’t taken any statistics courses there because I’m a professional statistician but I have taken some of their other courses and they seem to be pretty good. Many of them are “pay” but you can audit them for free, which means that you don’t get a certificate for participating (seriously, that’s all you get). Some of them are taught on a schedule so you can participate in forums/have work graded, etc with the instructor.

  56. Nervous Accountant*

    Tax season ended last week, and I would have posted on Friday but I took a much needed/ much welcome 3 day vacation….3 days on a chilly beach. :-)

    A year ago this time, I was utterly freaked out when my CEO joked “NA drinks a lot of water” (bc I pass by his office when I use the restroom.

    This year, I told him straight up to “pay us more.”

    That’s all. No serious issues, no problems, no drama, no questions.

  57. Allison*

    I seem to hate our open office more than usual this week. Our workstations are arranged in island with one row facing one way and one row facing the opposite direction, and the young woman across from me on our “island” of workstations constantly has people coming to her to confer on this and that thing, but rather than walk around to her side they just stand at my desk, right next to me, and talk to her over the desks. Right next to me! It’s very distracting. Some of them have a habit of tapping on my desk as they talk to her. Is there a polite way to tell people this is distracting and I’d prefer people go around to her workstation?

    And it’s distracting in general when people have conversations right behind me, which happen all the time as they guy who works behind me is a popular guy. When this happens, it’s hard to be productive, but I can’t slack off lest they see my screen and see I’m not working hard enough.

    AND for some reason everyone seems extra chatty. I get the flurry of work-related activity and conversations because we have a company meeting next week, but there seems to be a lot more socializing in addition to that. I’m really tempted to leave early and work from home this afternoon so I can actually focus.

    On a slightly unrelated note, my workstation seems to be treated like public domain when I’m not in the office. Sometimes I come in to find random stuff has been left on my desk, or my chair settings were messed with. Rude.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I am in the EXACT same situation, and this week was particularly vexing. I’m THISCLOSE to telling the guy across from me to stop chewing with his mouth open all day. Ugh.

      But yes, I think it’s totally ok to tell people who are hovering to talk to someone else that they need to move. I usually say very nicely “Hey, I’m actually in the middle of a big project and this is really distracting – would you mind not standing right here while you talk? Thanks so much!”

      Open cubicles are just torture for introverts.

      1. Allison*

        Tell me about it. And I feel bad when I have to put in headphones and use my music to block people out, instead of “being a part of things,” but when the conversation is completely irrelevant to my life, when people talk about weddings, do I really want to waste time smiling and nodding? No, I want to get my stuff done.

      2. Tau*

        I’m usually okay with my open office but today the person across from me had a USB fan going all day and it was making noise and it was so annoying aaaaaah.

        …we’ve also been asked not to use headphones. :(

      3. Jules the First*

        It could always be worse…there’s not quite enough space to walk between my desk chair and the desk behind me, but because we’re on an end, his colleagues often confer at his desk. Which wouldn’t be so bad except that they end up kicking my chair every.single.time they go by.

    2. CMT*

      I think just asking them to move when they’re standing right behind you is all you need to do. It’s not unreasonable or rude. They should be more considerate, but they’re probably totally unaware that they’re in your space.

    3. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Story of my life! I hate the open office plans. I used to vent regularly about my former cube neighbor who was the WORST! My work life got so much better when I was able to move.

  58. Temperance*

    Yesterday, I received an email thanking me for taking Terrible Intern on for this summer, and advising me of my duties as her boss and her schedule.

    I did *not* invite her back, nor did she make arrangements to rejoin us. After a flurry of phone calls and emails to her father (one of our clients), it came out that she actually just put my information down in case her other potential summer internship did not come through. As in, she was going to contact me and give me two weeks or less to put together a school credit internship for her.

    When I call her Terrible Intern, I am not even touching the surface of how awful she was. I’d also like to mention that i work at a fairly prestigious firm, and it shows how over-privileged and clueless Terrible Intern is that she thougth this would be a good idea. (Did I mention that she asked me for HOMEWORK HELP last fall?)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Wait, what? She was the one who emailed you?

      Did you respond definitively and tell her that you want to clear up any confusion and there is no place for her there this summer?

      1. Temperance*

        This is the bizarre part – SHE didn’t email me, her internship coordinator from her school did! She didn’t even call me or send me an email to ask to come back or to let me know she wanted to come here as backup.

        Because I work at a place with Very Important Clients, and Terrible Intern’s dad is one … I am not sorry to say that I involved the attorney who works with TI’s dad and the attorney confirmed it in writing for me. Under any other circumstance I would ABSOLUTELY have handled on my own, but politics and all that.

        1. Prismatic Professional*

          The attorney confirmed that you do not have a place for TI this summer? If so, YAY!!!! If not, what?!?

          1. Temperance*

            He did! FWIW I’m also an attorney, but not as high-ranking and TI’s dad is this man’s client. I’m really pleased that he handled it.

        2. Lefty*

          Wow. Would you think it appropriate to write back to the coordinator at the school and say something about, “It appears there has been an error in the dates regarding this internship. It took place Month-Month of 2015. Our firm is unable to offer internships this Summer.”? That way you get to point out that it’s NOT HAPPENING, but in the AAM style of addressing it as a simple oversight before escalating if necessary.

          1. Temperance*

            Because of office politics, I had to take it to the person who brought her here last summer, and ask him to reach out to her dad (who is our client). He’s taking care of it. Believe me, I wanted to send back a scathing missive.

    2. Prismatic Professional*

      OMG what?! Clear this up right away! With the SCHOOL! (And tell her she does NOT have an internship with your company.)*

      *Keeping in mind I do not know the politics of this situation.

    3. Kelly L.*

      You’re probably in a database or Excel spreadsheet somewhere and this is probably a form letter. It’s worth a call to the internship coordinator, but my first guess is simple mistake in mail merge, rather than genuinely thinking you were taking her back.

      1. Kelly L.*

        (I say this because I actually just mail-merged a bunch of letters just like this for my boss, who is an internship coordinator, and so it’s super fresh in my mind. I could see an alternate-me screwing this up once in a blue moon.)

      2. Temperance*

        Oh no, TI actually was planning on coming here as a backup plan if her other internship fell through. Nice of her to let me know, huh? ;)

        2. S0phieChotek*

          Yikes. Bullet dodged. At least she didn’t just show up with “I’m here”…
          Glad you got it cleared up!

  59. It's Your Job*

    I work for a small company. We all have similar-ish office jobs and are mostly trained completely in all the others. Like the marketing person can do some shipping as needed, the office manager knows how to print the checks, and the book keeper can send the marketing emails type stuff. We have a younger employee who has been complaining about fairness in the office lately. This person feels like they shouldn’t have to always be the one to do things that are traditionally their roles responsiblities. While other people technically can do them and have while someone is sick etc. it isn’t really a fairness issue.

    How do we explain fairness has no real place when discussing job duties? This person came from a strictly retail environment to more office and I think everyone there having the same job is throwing this person off.

    1. Dawn*

      “This person feels like they shouldn’t have to always be the one to do things that are traditionally their roles responsibilities.”

      O_o

      So… they shouldn’t always have to do the stuff that they were hired to do? How…..??? The mind boggles.

      OK if I were in that situation I’d explain that in the corporate world you’re hired and trained to do A Job, and that ensuring that Job gets done is your Responsibility and yours alone. So while other people are cross-trained so that stuff won’t not get done if someone’s on vacation or whatever, they are all doing Their Jobs while you are doing Your Job. I mean… I guess maybe she just doesn’t get how working in an office works and needs it explained to her?

      1. CMT*

        To be fair, it sounds exactly like she doesn’t get how working in office works and does need it to be explained to her. Hopefully just once it a firm, but polite, way.

    2. CMT*

      I would start with a conversation about how Young Employee’s job description includes Task A and she needs to be able to do that task regularly without complaint to fulfill her duties. Explain that other people perform this task only occasionally as needed. Ask her if she understands and then if it comes up again just say that it’s a necessary part of the job.

    3. Marina*

      I’ve seen that a lot in entry-level admin employees who have come from other work environments. A lot of times they haven’t been told that, say, cleaning the kitchen is their responsibility, other people just assume it is because it’s “traditionally” the responsibility of that role. That person’s supervisor may just need to straightforwardly tell them that task is part of their job, rather than assuming they know it should be.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Added- work places vary widely. For example, I have had retail jobs where I never cleaned the bathroom, there was a specific person who was assigned. Conversely other businesses had a rotation schedule, we all took turns.

        Nothing wrong with telling a new hire, that every business handles things differently and the expectation here is that you will do x. If later on the complaints continue, then you can say “This is what the job is. I am not sure what you were told it would be, but this is what it is.”

  60. Funeral Question*

    An unusual situation occurred this week and I am wondering about others’ take on it:
    I work within a ~40 person work group. A coworker’s mother died over the weekend after a brief but obviously quite serious illness. We knew that she was ill and had entered into hospice care last week and were notified on Monday via a flyer posted in a common area that she died over the weekend. I interact with this person professionally on a regular basis but am not personally close with her — in fact we only occasionally even have a non-work related conversation. Usually when a coworker’s family dies, someone will coordinate a sympathy card +/- a money collection depending on the circumstances and a card was circulated for this person Monday-Tuesday.
    On Tuesday morning she came to work for some pre-scheduled training and I was able to offer my condolences in person. The unusual thing was she asked me specifically to come to her mom’s wake and/or funeral. Not knowing her mom or family at all and not being very close to her, it felt weird. I didn’t answer specifically but just expressed my condolences again. I truly was not able to go because of commitments to my own family but I was really left feeling guilty about it. I did get her a personal sympathy card but am wondering if I should have made arrangements to attend. Thoughts?

    1. KR*

      I think as long as you’re really upfront that you truly weren’t able to make it but wish you could have, she will understand. Funerals mean different things to different people. She’s going through a lot right now, and she might not have meant to make you feel like you had to go, or maybe she always really liked you and never had a chance to get close to you.

    2. Glasskey*

      Do you think maybe she was just asking you out of politeness? I don’t think you need to feel bad about this.

    3. CM*

      I don’t think you did anything wrong. I would write in the card that you’re sorry you couldn’t attend the funeral, but have been thinking of her.

    4. BRR*

      Don’t feel guilty. Different people operate different ways for funerals but it should be ok to say you had a prior arrangement, even if that arrangement is netflix.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Optionally, if it would help either you or her, why not invite her to go get a cup of tea together? You don’t have to do this of course, but if the idea rings with you, then maybe that is something you could do.

  61. Confused anon*

    I had something of a confusing interaction with a coworker. But it’s not related to work, more of a personal thing.

    Do I post here, or in the non work open thread?

  62. Headachey*

    A local businessman received some press recently when he was revealed as the anonymous sender of postcards alerting residents in the community where his business is located of plans to build a mosque. He has since said that the only thing he regrets about this is sending them anonymously.

    Well. Of course there’s more. Today there’s a lengthy article detailing the extent to which he shares his “forceful personality and controversial views” in the workplace (link in follow-up comment). I’m not sure at which point my jaw dropped completely open, but I think my AAM bad-boss bingo card is well on its way to a bingo!

    The high points:
    – Compares himself to Donald Trump, saying he’s not a robot and says what he thinks.
    – Thinks of his employees as family (FAAAAMILY!).
    – Told an employee who requested that she be removed from an offensive, racist joke email group, “Time for you to leave.”
    – If employees are unhappy, “there are other companies to work for.”
    – Launched a “mosque watch group” that meets on the company campus
    – Gives extra profit-sharing income to employees with children, because they have extra expenses.

    3. Dawn*

      Uh…. pretty sure at least one of those things is illegal. If I was an employment lawyer I’d absolutely be sending promotional material to the employees.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      And none of these employees have written to Alison yet?

      I am thinking a link to AAM needs to be posted in the comments section for the article.

  63. Coffee Ninja*

    I am so frustrated with my boss. Lately, she has been prying for details into how I spend my free time outside of work when it’s really none of her business. We had an in-house charity event a couple months ago that I was voluntold for, and we have another one coming up soon. It’s on a Saturday and I have plans with friends, so during a planning meeting I mentioned I couldn’t volunteer at the actual event. Later that night, I got a text from her – “Meant to ask, what are you doing on [date]?

    She did the same thing about a month ago, when we had to travel to a work conference (our whole office went). It was a couple hours away and Big Boss (her boss, who also partially supervises me – long story) said feel free to book a hotel the night before the conference, or come down in the AM – your choice. I went in the morning, as I had plans the night before. Most people went in the morning, my boss chose to go the night before. She asked me 3 times to go down the night before – “we can go out to dinner!” “don’t leave me alone with Big Boss!” – and I kept reiterating sorry, I have plans and I don’t mind driving there in the AM. A couple days before the conference, I got the same text message – “meant to ask you, what are your plans for [night]?”

    It’s really getting old, especially because it’s exasperated by the fact that in the 2.5 years I’ve worked with her, she’s frequently insinuated that I must have loads of free time and lots of money because I am single without children (i.e., Coffee Ninja can stay late/come early for that meeting, etc. or letting my coworkers work from home because their kids are off from school but not giving me the same ability). I don’t see how my marital status or childbearing status has any bearing on my attendance at non-work events. How can I deflect her? It feels difficult to address because her comments are so insidious and I don’t want to come off as being difficult.

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Unless I’m misreading this, I don’t think it’s insidious. People are different in how much they want to know their coworkers. I like to at least know the basics about the people who work for me – we’re a pretty tight knit group and it’s nice to know if they’re married, have kids, etc. It’s not that I’m prying, but they’re people I spend a lot of time with and it’s nice to know the basics.

      I get that you’re on a different part of that spectrum, which is fine. But I think you should consider your boss’s questions as well-meaning, if misguided. You can just say something vague like “oh, just have some plans with friends.”

      1. Coffee Ninja*

        That’s the thing, though – no matter how many times I say I have plans, she keeps pushing for specifics. And it’s only when my plans conflict with “work” events (they aren’t even work events, they’re tangentially related things she wants me to be at). When we talk about weekends or things, she doesn’t seem to be interested in talking about my life – and I try to! Usually I like my boss :)

        1. Not So NewReader*

          “Boss, just curious, I am wondering why you want specifics of my personal life when there is a work event that I cannot attend.”

          She may not even realize how many times she has done this. Or she may not realize that she is automatically saying this each time. Or she may be a fixer, “oh you can’t go? Here let me fix that for you.”

          Going back to my rule of three, I see something three times then it is time to deal with it. Sounds like you have heard this more than three times. Definitely ask her. Start out low key, just in case you find out the answer is that she really likes having you specifically join her at work events. Of course, this does not up the ante, you do not have to go. But at least you understand why and you can give her a gentler version of your NO answer.

    2. 'Nonymous*

      It sounds like your boss wants to be your friend outside of work and that you don’t want to. I think you should nicely say that you like to keep your personal life private. It also sounds like she is scatterbrained (or has a learning disability like ADHD) and can’t remember that she’s asked you the same question multiple times. You might casually point that out in your replies if it fits the context and doesn’t sound too aggressive. It might also mean that you have to reiterate the fact that you like to keep your personal life private multiple times. What is your company’s policy about working from home and are you entitled to it? You should base your argument on that, and not what your co-workers are allowed/not allowed to do.

    3. Ragnelle*

      Is it possible that she is trying to get more details from you so she can find a way to “fix the problem” of you not being able to do whatever it is she wants you to? I ask because my mother is notorious for doing this, especially around holiday planning. She wants all of the details for my plans so she can rearrange them and make terrible “helpful suggestions” about how I can realign my plans with what she wants to do. (An example: “Well, if you came the night before instead of the morning of and stayed at your little sister’s house, you could bring her with you in your vehicle and then we could take her back while you drive to your mother-in-law’s…”) Now, it’s my mother, so it’s a different dynamic, but the similar behavior makes me wonder (especially since you clarified she doesn’t seem very interested in your plans when there isn’t a manufactured work conflict).

      If you think this is the case, the best thing to do is keep giving short, non-descript answers that do not give her ammunition to rearrange things to her liking. “So sorry, but I have plans.” “I won’t be able to do that this weekend.” etc. I know she is your boss, but I also don’t think you are required to respond (especially by text) to repeated iterations of the same inquiry. To appease her, you might decide how many of these extracurricular-ish, voluntold things you are willing to do per year. Or you can be more direct with her and say you don’t mind pitching in for some of this stuff, but you need at least a month’s notice (or whatever makes sense for you) beforehand.

      As for the being married/having kids stuff, I’d just ignore it as much as possible. People’s attitudes around this can be annoying, and you’re unlikely to change them. Just stick to the short, non-descript reasons you’ve been giving and ignore the blowback. If your boss is a reasonable person, she’ll eventually just have to accept this as part of your personality and work preferences.

      1. S0phieChotek*

        Yes I wondered this too, since you wrote that And it’s only when my plans conflict with “work” events (they aren’t even work events, they’re tangentially related things she wants me to be at).

        Maybe she wants to be friends outside of work, like others said, but then I would think she’s just straight out ask to meet for coffee or something after work one day.

      2. CMT*

        I think that’s exactly what she’s doing. I wouldn’t offer any specifics because she’ll probably try to convince you to change your plans. If she keeps asking for details a really pointed “Why do you ask?” might help.

    4. CM*

      Can you just ignore the texts and not respond? And then if she asks you in person, you can say something vague like “I have a pre-existing commitment,” and if pressed on what exactly it is, “It’s a personal matter.”

      And do you think it’s possible for you to openly bring up how unfair it is to treat you differently from coworkers with kids? Like, “I’ve attended every early meeting for the past two months, while you’ve excused Jane because of her childcare responsibilities. I realize I don’t have kids and she does, but I feel that it’s unfair to treat us differently because of our family status. I’d like all of us to share those duties.” Or if you don’t feel comfortable bringing it up that directly, I’d at least address it in the moment — when she insinuates that you have so much more free time than coworkers with kids, you can say something like, “That’s not necessarily true. I have personal commitments too.”

    5. ginger ale for all*

      I hate when people assume that if you are single with no kids that you have no life and can drop everything to do what they want you to do. I had one intense year three years ago where I literally had plans for every night and day (martial arts classes twice a week, dance classes twice a week, training for a 5k, and two book clubs) except for Sunday and then Sunday turned into my errands and laundry day. My sympathies – there is no getting through to some people. When people asked me if I could do something with them during that time period, I would just tell them which class/event I would be at and that they were welcome to sign up for the class.

    6. Marvel*

      I am a super private person who is uncomfortable answering questions about my personal life in general, so I run into this sort of situation a lot! My recommendation would to mix deflection with turning the question back on her. For instance:

      Her: What are your plans on [date]?
      You: Personal stuff. Why do you ask?

      I find that saying “personal stuff” seems to work well for this sort of thing because it carries the automatic implication of “I do not want to talk about this at work” and/or “we are not close enough for me to feel comfortable talking about this.” Once someone has outright said their plans are personal, it takes a pretty rude person to keep pushing them. By asking the question afterwards, you stand to gain two things. One, you might find out why she’s actually asking you this so often. Two, it puts her on the spot instead of you, which with any luck will make her stop asking you.

      Become a broken record: just keep repeating “personal stuff, why?” every time she asks. If she asks what kind of personal stuff (which, again, takes a REALLY pushy person) just say “oh, it’s personal” + work-related subject change.

      Other useful lines:
      “I’m uncomfortable discussing personal stuff at work.”
      “I like to keep my personal life and my work life separate.”
      “I made personal plans that day.”
      “I’m sorry, I really can’t attend. Anyway, about Fergus’s email…”
      “I have a personal appointment.” (your personal appointment can be sitting on the couch in your PJs watching Netflix; it’s none of their business and they don’t need to know)

  64. justsomeone*

    I know I’m not the first to feel this way, but man does it suck when you’re always the bridesmaid but never the bride. I’ve been actively job hunting since November and have made it to late-stage interviews three times, all for positions that would have really interested me at companies I’d have liked working for. All three times I’ve gotten “you’d be a great fit for the company, but not this specific role. Keep looking at our website for openings!” It’s hard to judge how sincere those are – one of them I’m preeeetttty sure is sincere, but the other two…. I just don’t know. And I’m having a really hard time of it because I reeaaaallly want to move on from my position now. It’s a decent job that I’ve kind of outgrown, but it pays pretty well (and I just got a better than expected raise yesterday in my annual review, right before the latest rejection), it’s just the culture is weighing me down. Continuing to search just makes me feel overwhelmed though. All three of the interview processes have been multi-step. One had three phone interviews and I met with six people on site. It’s exhausting!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think if you had three phone interviews and an on-site multiple-interview visit, theyr’e pretty serious when they say you’d be a good fit but….

      If, however, it’s just a phone interview, probably not so much.

      Companies (and schools and organizations) don’t like to waste time on hiring, so if they bring you in to meet multiple people, they’re serious. Of course, that’s small consolation if you don’t actually get the job. I’m just addressing this part of your comment:
      It’s hard to judge how sincere those are

      1. justsomeone*

        All three were way past phone interview. All three had on-sites, so I guess I can take them as more or less sincere.

  65. AlternativeAnswer*

    Like my posting name here suggests, has anyone used the tactic of providing an “alternative” response when a prospective employer asks an inappropriate question? (Some call them “illegal” questions, but since they’re not actually illegal – but rather something that could be used against the company in a discrimination lawsuit – I call them “inappropriate” or “taboo” questions.) This is also known as “answering the intent” of the question – providing a response that answers what they have a legitimate interest in knowing without either divulging sensitive information or lying.

    Examples might be an interviewer asks about your family or your nationality – you can respond by saying something like “I can meet the requisite work schedule” or “I am authorized to work in the U.S.” (since direct questions about your family or national origin are off-limits, but they can ask if you can work the provided schedule or are eligible to work in the country).

    Another example is a job application that asks for certain information in a dicey way – an example would be if they want you to list all organizations that you’re a member of without further qualification. Such a broad inquiry could elicit sensitive information about their religion or other protected class – but they do want to know about job-related organizations (which a properly-designed application should phrase it along those lines). Therefore someone who is a member of an off-topic organization that they do not want to divulge for discrimination reasons can put down a response like “none that are job related” (or if they are a member of a (some) job-related organization(s) list it/them and then put “no others that are job related” – “job related” can also be substituted with “relevant” and other minor changes if more appropriate). If they’re worried that a technical omission may be used against them if discovered that gives the applicant the best of both worlds as described at the end of the first paragraph.

    Sometimes these gray-area inquiries are done with malicious intent, but others may be done because the designer of the application or the interviewer is not aware that for some people the question as worded could be problematic and put them in a dilemma between lying/technically omitting something and divulging irrelevant information that may be used against them (unless an “alternative answer” is possible and they use one). I’m drafting a post for Alison to consider featuring in the near future that talks about one such group and situation where this tactic can help, and I’m using this post here as a “warm-up” for that.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Just a quick note on that last piece — I don’t typically run guest posts (except in very rare cases where I’ve solicited one) but feel free to submit a question!

      1. AlternativeAnswer*

        No problem – it’s not really a guest post, but I’ll e-mail you it as a question and if you want to respond to it or feature it on your site that’ll work (I don’t want to give more details here so I don’t “spoil” the discussion).

  66. Jen RO*

    Really looking forward to this 3-day weekend (Orthodox Easter)… this is going to be a long summer. The official date of our big release was finally decided and we’ve only got 3 months to go (with 1 of those being busy with other things)… but at least now I know when I can book my holiday! I will definitely need after the amount of overtime I will put in.

  67. Sunshine Girl*

    Started a new job as an inside sales rep for a company, this is what I previous did as well, but got a 50% bump so I left a job with coworkers I loved who were awesome rockstars. Unfortunately, I am now in a division with a senior sales rep who is insane. She is not my direct report, but I have been asked to help for for the first couple months while I understand some of our products more while performing a PM type function until then.

    The problem is all the woman does is talk down to me like I am an idiot, she’s about 18 months from retirement, and I am 29 for reference. She just has me checking her work for part #’s and when I do if I fix a problem, she gets mad about it. Otherwise, all she keeps asking me to do is how to delete a column in excel which she doesn’t understand at all. Also anytime I help her, I explain it slowly step by step and she’s always going “YES I KNOW!!!” and getting angry. Two of the HR ladies mentioned that she has complained about them previously to HR manager to me before and to warm me she will act like a child and not let me know when there is a problem just complain about me to management.

    She is also very worried about details, and instead of paying attention in customer meetings she will spend all the time not listening / looking for the answer to the first question they ask, then flip flop back and forth on the answer 20 times and eventually send a follow up email basically blaming the customer for any understanding. It’s insane!

    I am a bit worried. I am supposed to be off site most of the time come a couple months training which will be good (at our partner company) but I am really looking for advice on how to get through the next few months (and 18 until she retires) because the rest of the company is great! My design engineers are the easiest to work with that I have ever worked with etc! It’s a great fit other then that.

    If it matters, she and I both report to the Sales Director, however he has only been in the country at our location for a few weeks and I don’t think he has any idea how she is, she comes across as a sweet old lady to him.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you get to talk to the new director?

      I think I would start by saying to her, “If you have a problem with me, I prefer that you come to me first and give me a chance to work on it with you.”

      If she gets angry with you for explaining to her what SHE asked you to explain, have some calming things lined up to say to her. “I am not trying to tick you off, I am trying to help you. There’s no need to get upset, we will get this.” Or you could start writing the directions down if possible and telling her to keep them handy so she can do it on her own.

      If you have copies of her emails you might want to show your boss.

      Who asked you to help? Can you talk to that person?
      Can you redefine what help looks like? Such as finding third party sources to help her. For example with Excel you could say, “Oh, have you googled to see if you can find the instructions for that?”

  68. Ghost Pepper*

    What is a “standard raise”? 3%? 5%?

    What is a “good raise”?

    Just wondering how much to ask for at my next review. Consistent, positive performance feedback and expanded responsibilities, thus far.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      It really depends on the industry, the company, and your particular project/area/business line. In places where raises are standard (and that’s not a sure thing by any means), I’d say that in the work I’ve done, 2-3% is a typical cost of living/you’re doing a decent job raise.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d say 2-3% isn’t a raise but a cost-of-living increase. 5% is a small raise. 10-20% is a huge raise. Anything above that is probably more like a promotion.

      1. Not Karen*

        Agreed. Personally I consider anything <=3% a cost-of-living increase, not a raise. A raise is supposed to put you in a better financial position, not just offset inflation.

        1. ThatGirl*

          In general this makes sense, but right now inflation is almost nonexistent, so my 3% raise (which was above the general ceiling) feels like a real, if small, raise.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            I don’t know if general inflation is flat, but my rent certainly increases at least 2% each year, so I don’t consider a 3% “raise” to be a real raise.

    3. CollegeAdmin*

      In my current organization:

      2013: 1.5%
      2014: one-time payout of 1.5% (so more like a bonus, but they called it a raise)
      2015: 2% raise

      These would be examples of “not good” raises in my opinion. (And just for the record – it’s not because I’m a terrible employee. This was the raise percentage for all staff.)

    4. nerfmobile*

      I got a “good raise” for my company this spring – I know I’m in the top quarter or so of performers at my company and I am also in the lower section of the pay band for my grade, which my manager is trying to move me up in, so I know it was on the higher percentage end of raises. It was about 4.3% (which rounded the end result up to a nice even number).

  69. Little Teapot*

    Hi all! I’ve posted off and on – I am doing a MSW and in my second/final year. I am considering doing a PhD in social work, focusing on leaving care or foster care/child protection. Any other SWers done at PhD? Or people with a PhD in general, any tips? I’m not so much interested in a career in research/academics as I am interested in my topic area and want to immerse myself. After my Masters I have to do two research subjects as my MSW is by coursework not research so I’m looking at July 2018 entry, so between Jan 2017-July 2018 work full time. I don’t want to loose practice and as such thinking of the PhD part time. I’ve been organizing meetings with faculty and have met with a current PhD SW student – trying to information gather. Any advice welcome! Thanks.

    1. fposte*

      I’m not in SW, but in general, PhDs are for research and not immersion–a PhD is supposed to be doing work that enhances the department/school, which is why they get funding. Usually also you’d be expected to know who you might work with at that school when you apply, which could be challenging if you’re geographically limited. These are competitive spots, so you want to make yourself a strong candidate.

      Another possibility that you might want to consider is an MPH–there’s a lot of interesting work done in child protection in that field (Michigan is a great example) and wouldn’t have the same research expectations.

      1. Mimmy*

        I didn’t even think about immersion in a topic vs. doing work that enhances the department/school – I wonder if that’s a common misconception of prospective doctoral students. As I mentioned below, immersion was a motivator for me too.

        In addition to your suggestion, perhaps an MPP or MPA are also possible options.

    2. Mimmy*

      Ohhh can I relate to this!! I have an MSW and was contemplating a PhD for the very same reason – immersing myself in my topic area of interest (disability policy, accessibility, programs, etc). I met with the program director and talked with one current student, but ended up holding off because I didn’t feel ready and unsure of my long-term goals.

      So far you are doing the right things by meeting with faculty and students and gathering information (better than me, that’s for sure–I didn’t even think of contacting faculty). Pursuing a PhD, from what I know, is very demanding and potentially costly.

      Two things:
      1. Think carefully about doing the PhD part-time. That’s what I was thinking, and the student I spoke with said that this isn’t always a good idea: since you’d be spreading out the coursework over a longer period of time, it may make studying for your Comprehensive exam (or whatever it’s called at your school of choice) harder. I made this mistake in doing my MSW – it’s 2 years full-time at my school, but I did it part time over 4+ years. That made it extremely difficult to integrate everything I learned. Since you’d be working it might be better, but I’d still be a bit wary.

      2. It’s not clear from your post – rather than research/academia, are you hoping to continue working directly in foster care or child protection agencies, i.e. working with children and families? If that’s the case, then a better route might be the DSW. At my school, this is an advanced clinical degree. Every program is different, but the one at my school is very writing-intensive.

      I hope this helps!

  70. Renny90*

    I was just offered a new job in NYC! This is extra awesome because I’ve been dying to move back to the city and I can finally get out of my awful work environment. Please remind me that it’s a bad idea to just quit on the spot. I

  71. GLBT Anon*

    Regular poster, anon for this!

    Today I had to inadvertently come out at work. I’ve been here seven years in a casual role, look ‘straight’ (i.e. not a stereotypical butch lesbian) and never mention my private life. Today everything collided together due to a customer who is an ex’s ex. This could have conceivably been my ‘male’ ex with his female ex – ergo, ‘straight’ – but said female ex is now F2M transitioning. It’s complicated but basically I was forced to out myself.

    Surprisingly it went better than expected. I told my department manager (who generally speaking is the best manager I’ve ever had, she’s supportive and knowledgable and gives me lots of extra opportunities and I just adore her to bits) in a private meeting while trying to put out of the fire that emerged due to the situation and she was 100% cool. I’m not surprised per se as she’s so awesome but it’s been such a long time and they all just assumed (like most people do) that I’m straight. She even jokingly told me that when she was my age I would have been called a ‘lipstick queen’ haha.

    Has anyone else had to come out at work? (I say ‘had’ to be different to you just chose to come out, I mean more when circumstances dictated it versus when you felt ready on your own.) How did it go?

    Major shout out to my beyond awesome manager!

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I’m glad it went well! I’m honestly still surprised something like this is noteworthy – around here if one of my workers came out I’d be like “ok…so?” Ha. It’s just not a big thing here anymore, which I think is a great sign of the times :)

      1. Shell*

        Somewhat similarly: I once had a roommate confide in me that she’d had an abortion. We weren’t close (in fact, grated each other’s nerves very regularly), but as she put it, she had to tell someone. I suppose she told me because she thought her closer friends would be more judging?

        I wasn’t judging, I just blinked at her and asked her point-blank why she was telling me this. It was very much an “okay, so?” situation for me. (No one has ever accused me of being socially graceful.) Many months/years afterward it gelled that perhaps she had wanted some comforting, but we hadn’t been close for me to help her with that kind of emotional support/intimacy. I think I said something along the lines of “why would I think badly of you for this? Your choice, your body” and went back to washing dishes.

        ^^;;

        OP of the thread, glad it worked out for you!

    2. Menacia*

      I’m kind of surprised that you “had” to come out and that it just was not something that was brought up naturally through the course of interactions with your manager or coworkers over the last 7 years. I guess it all depends on the person and the environment, I know where I work, which is very family-oriented, not many would even bat an eye to someone coming out. I don’t know, it makes me feel closer to my coworkers when they trust me enough to share something personal. Glad it worked out well for you! :)

      1. Jadelyn*

        A lot of us feel unsafe re coming out – considering that sexual orientation is NOT a protected class on the Federal level and there are still over a dozen states where you can literally be fired for being queer (of whichever variety), it’s not necessarily unreasonable fear, either. A lot of us have a lot of practice at carefully playing it close to the vest so as not to inadvertently out ourselves, so I (sadly) don’t find it at all surprising regardless of the length of time they’ve been at that company.

        1. Ad Astra*

          I think those of us who work at LGBT-friendly companies (or live in particularly LGBT-friendly areas) sometimes forget how risky coming out can be for many people. And being cishet myself, I am especially guilty of taking that security for granted.

    3. Bowserkitty*

      That’s amazing. I’m really feminine-looking too; I don’t think I ever really have come out to anyone since working office jobs except to maybe one coworker. I’m really happy it worked out so well :)

      Come to think of it, when marriage equality was passed I attended a rally downtown to celebrate, and I ran into a woman who I would do occasional work with. I already got along with her because she’s a fellow cat lady, and we hugged and did the “I had no idea you were… oh yeah, me too” awkward song and dance. Turns out she and her wife are big in the local humane society. It was nice knowing someone else knew about me, though.

      1. Ghost Pepper*

        Bowserkitty – Just curious, how did either of you know the other was gay vs. an ally by being at the rally? Were both of you with your significant others?

        1. Bowserkitty*

          She mentioned she was with her wife, at which point I said “Oh, if I had a wife she’d be here too but I just have the cats still!” …which to me implied it? Either way, in our conversations after that she knew.

          and this is why I’m still single because I hardly ever have these conversations. booo

          1. Bowserkitty*

            actually it’s probably the social awkwardness and desire to be a homebody with my cats more than actual humans, but I’ll make what excuses I can.

    4. New Girl*

      It’s been 12 years of marriage equality in my state, and still sometimes I have to actively banish the old social script about people coming out from my brain. I’m old enough it used to be Very Special Episode stuff, like, there’s going to be a violin somewhere in the distance at a bare minimum, possibly a whole string quartet. But it’s really nice to see it just elided into regular social scripts as no big deal.

      I saw a local TV profile show a couple nights back, showcasing new restaurants about the city: “Chef de cuisine Bitsy and her tropical horticulturalist wife, Betsy, decided that what this city really needs is a place where you can eat bananas drizzled in beef stroganoff. And here it is!”

      I think it takes work on everyone’s part to create that sense of no big deal, but I’m very pleased to see it increasing over the years.

    5. Granite*

      I’m glad it went well. I’ve made it a point to be out, both because I no longer have the patience to watch my pronouns, and because I know I have the privilege of being secure in my job. Especially now I’m in a management position, I know it makes a difference to our more vulnerable (job security wise) employees to know I’m here and have been promoted while out.

  72. Aella*

    I have just received a whole raft of rejections for applications, and am trying to psych myself up to a) follow the CV advisor’s recs on updating mine* and b) apply for the damn internship which I’m interested in. It pays! It pays reasonably well! I could do it, and I have the organisation’s ethos and I would benefit! Also, I know where it is and know that the people who run it are Good People because my father and my aunt used to be involved with a different area.

    At least I now have an actual draft of My Feelings On Controversial Topic to put into my application for A Large Charity Working With Said Controversial Topic.

    I need to kick my depression inna teef.

    *UK people: interests on CVs? Yes, No, Only under very specific circumstances?

  73. Lady Dedlock*

    Is it usual to have a manager who offers no career/professional development guidance?

    Background: I’ve worked at my current organization for six years, in which time I’ve been promoted twice. Both times, it was because I had, of my own initiative, taken on challenging projects and expanded the scope of my job duties. My manager has never offered me any guidance on how to develop my career, though I’ve asked him explicitly how I might do so. In performance reviews, I’ve asked what skills I might develop that would allow me to contribute more, and he basically just shrugs his shoulders and says I’m doing great.

    As a result, I’m feeling conflicted about whether or how long I ought to remain in my current position. On the one hand, I’ve had success growing my career here, but on the other hand, I suspect the lack of mentorship is stunting my career development, and I’ve likely been promoted as high as I can go here. Is it worth it to jump ship in hopes of finding a place that will do more to support my career growth, and a manager who’s more interested in developing talent? Or is it unreasonable to expect to find those things at most workplaces?

    1. Mockingjay*

      Career development is a very reasonable expectation. I’ve had managers who were quite good at it. I’ve had others who did nothing.

      I think there are a number of factors:

      1) Company culture. Some companies are really good at providing clear career paths. These are the ones with clear, hierarchical job descriptions and a matrix of paths. Others are focused on individual development while you remain in your role. (Send you to a class.) Others don’t address it all. The size of the company hasn’t mattered in my experience. In my early years I worked for a small company that bent over backwards to move you up. I also worked for a very large corporation which wanted to keep me in the same slot to maximize profit on the contract.

      2) Managerial training. Manager training can be sporadic. Managers get trained on immediate needs of their direct reports: time cards, leave approval, task assignment. Career development is often left off the list. They might not have knowledge of the process.

      3) Self-promotion. The squeaky wheel gets the grease. You have to advocate why you deserve the title change or promotion. Which it sounds like you have already done successfully, twice. Good for you!

      4) Nowhere else to go. Sometimes, there just isn’t anything open. Staffing is adequate for the current workload – so no openings there. Manager Bob won’t retire for another 5 years, so his office isn’t available. The annual contract is up for renewal, which means that promotions may make the labor cost too high to remain competitive, and the work being bid doesn’t call for someone at a high level, so no room there.

      Sometimes you do have to change jobs to get to the next level. Before doing that, if your company is large enough, can you transfer into a lateral role in another department with better chances for advancement?

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Thanks for weighing in on this, Mockingjay! (Great handle, btw.) I appreciate your thoughts.

        There’s no chance of a lateral move in my current organization. I work in a small editorial department at a research center, so the bulk of the jobs here are naturally in research, and I’m not qualified for them. Unless my boss left (not happening), I would have to move out to move up.

        My last promotion was less than a year and a half ago, so it’s not like my career trajectory has flattened out, but I’m feeling frustrated because (1) I’d like to be developing skills that will help me get to the next level when I am ready to move on, and (2) I feel more motivated at work when I know my efforts are ultimately helping my self-advancement. Without career development, I feel kind of like I’m just marking time here.

        I guess I’m just trying to get a sense of whether my frustration is reasonable, or whether I’m being entitled/impatient. I’ve only worked for two employers, and both of my direct supervisors have been very hands-off in terms of career development. I don’t have a good sense of whether that’s the norm, or if I’d really benefit from moving sooner rather than later because I’d be more likely to have access to mentoring and resources if I did.

    2. Thyri*

      Do we work at the same place? I could have written this. It’s one of the reasons I’m trying to leave. He’s too busy for even a weekly one-on-one but wants us at his beck and call “in case” he needs us. Which is next to never.

      1. Lady Dedlock*

        Yeah, that’s no good. My situation is slightly different in that my manager is very available for talks about work assignments, and he’s generally just a nice, mild-mannered guy, but he doesn’t seem to think about his staff much outside of their ability to perform particular tasks. For instance, someone else on our team left a few months ago, after working here for about eight years (most of that time under his supervision). She didn’t want a big farewell party, so I suggested to my boss that just our team go out for lunch. His response was, “Really, you think we should? I never would have thought of that. To be honest, I’m not particularly close with [departing team member].” (Seriously? How is this a normal manager’s response to something like that?)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      To me it’s normal to have a boss that does not care one iota about career/development/etc. I have had a couple of bosses care over the decades but they were rare. My personal belief is that you have to figure out what you want and stay on track for it. Most of the time the employee has to start the conversation or it will just not happen.

  74. TeaCozy*

    Hey, first comment here!

    I had a silly hypothetical question for discussion:

    I have several friends who make extra cash doing tarot readings online (not scamming people or claiming to predict the future; both parties involved know the limits of advice coming from a deck of pretty cards). Since it’s just a side job they do in their free time, they probably don’t put it on their resume (also lots of people would just think it was a bunch of woo and not take them seriously).

    But, if you were a professional tarot reader, would you list that on a resume, and how?

    1. Kelly L.*

      Hmm.

      Not for most jobs. I might use it if the job were either in the New Age field in some way (like a New Age shop), or if it were in the performing arts, as professional reading is a performance of a sort.

    2. Pontoon Pirate*

      Unless there’s some sort of professional association for tarot readers, it would be hard to put that down on a resume and have it taken seriously. “Lifestyle consultant” or “Personal coach”, on the other hand, might be easier to parlay into the nuts and bolts of why the job has transferable skills.

    3. LQ*

      I’d go with no. I think Kelly is right that there might be a time for it, but I think that would be the exception. You had to tell us that it wasn’t scamming people. How do you say that on a resume? I don’t think you can.

      1. Kelly L.*

        Right–I think most people will assume that you’re either a scammer or a true believer in your own psychic powers–and whether anyone really has psychic powers or not, it’s probably not going to be perceived well by most people, if that makes sense.

  75. A.J.*

    I quit my job earlier this week, and today is my last day! Granted it was only a contract position, but it still feels good. I have had lots of contract positions over the years (I’m in IT), and this was by far the worst. I won’t go into details because I’ve ranted about it here in depth in the past. Thankfully I was able to get another contract job with a group similar to one that I used to work with (and know for sure is better than the place I am leaving), but I’m getting so tired of jumping around from contract to contract. I just want a full time job where I can actually feel like I’m making an impact, and not just feel like some temporary fill-in they can simply get rid of without a second thought. Its frustrating because so many jobs in my specific narrow field are becoming contract, but the field really isn’t suited for it. Unfortunately its only going to get worse in my field so perhaps its time for a career change…

  76. Eudaemonia*

    I’m thinking of having a conversation with my manager/CEO about leaving my job (without having anything else lined up).

    Pros: I could offer a notice period as long as necessary to make the transition smooth (maybe even find a replacement). I need to get away soon in order not to completely lose my confidence in being able to do anything right, which is a very strong feeling I have at this job, due to many factors. My relationship with my other CEO is horrible, not for lack of me trying to make it better, and that won’t change. I would be able to job hunt in the open which might open up possibilities not available otherwise. Not having the comforts of this job would push me to look harder for new opportunities.

    Cons: General wisdom is that it’s just not a smart thing to do and I’m well aware of the reasons why that is so. There are not that many job opportunities in my field (I’m not even sure what I would really like to do) and my salary here is pretty good, so leaving without an alternative might be foolish (although I do have savings).

    If you’ve ever done something like that, what has been your experience? What would you consider as the most important things to take into account?

    1. T3k*

      I just recently quit mine without anything lined up, but for me, it was the fact that I was gaining nothing from my job but just work experience to put on a resume. My pay sucked (half the amount for those in my field with same years of experience), the commute was long, no benefits, no PTO, no room to grow, and I wasn’t even gaining skills in the areas I needed to get the job I wanted, so while I was gaining work experience, it wasn’t helping me grow. In the end, I calculated how much I had saved away, debated if I wouldn’t mind part time temp work just to get away from this one, and if I could really dedicate myself to learning new skills within that time period to make myself stand out. I decided I had to go for it and at least say I tried, rather than stick it out another year in a dead end job and getting nowhere in my career.

    2. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I quit my job last year with nothing lined up and it turned out to be a wonderful decision for me. My biggest piece of advice is to double and triple check your finances to make sure you will be OK for longer than you think you’ll be out of work and to factor in surprise expenses like car repairs and the like. My only surprise bill was COBRA insurance. My HR person quoted me a price much lower than what it actually ended up being so I ended up getting a cheap, emergency-level Obamacare plan which was fine for me since I’m single with no kids and no pre-existing conditions.

      Outside of finances, the break allowed me to recover from working in a very toxic environment for five years and also figure out what it was that I actually wanted to do. I was previously in finance and wanted to move out of that industry and also do something more like project management but I had no idea what industry I wanted to be in. I took a couple months off completely and then started working with a mentor who guided me through the job search and hooked me up with contacts for interviews. One of them worked out and I’m now incredibly happy at work, doing something i enjoy, and I received an almost 25% pay increase.

      I live in a large city that is home to a lot of company headquarters so there are plenty of job opportunities here. If your industry is very small or you live in a town with limited job availability, I would definitely take that into consideration as well as that could really extend your job search.

      Let me know if you have any other questions! My situation certainly turned out to be all rainbows and lollipops but I know it doesn’t always turn out that way. I think the size of your savings makes a big difference here and also if you have any people depending on you (children, family members).

      1. lionelrichiesclayhead*

        Also wanted to mention that it will be good if you can leave and still get a good recommendation from your boss or from some higher ups who you worked for. When I quit my job I had recommendations from the president of the company and my manager because I left in a way that there were no hard feelings. (They promoted me into a position that I was really not ready for, into a group that was angry about losing their old boss and I think everyone felt horrible about how it turned out. They wanted to simply move me into a better fitting position but I decided it was the right time to look outside of finance and they were sad but understanding). This really helped during my job search because I didn’t have to worry about employers wondering what really happened that caused me to quit. Was she about to be fired? (or something like that) Since I was able to get good recommendations from the job I quit, this helped to alleviate any red flags a future employer might see in my choice to quit.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I have quit with nothing lined up. Health is my top consideration. If I feel my health tanking then it’s time to get out.
      I guess my other consideration would be to say figure finding a job will take longer than you expect and start right away trimming your monthly bills where you can. If you do get a new job very soon, you will have the added benefit of reduced bills, too.

  77. Mica*

    Ugh last week in the weekend thread I mentioned that my father might be diagnosed with cancer, and well, he has lung cancer and not an early stage. I honestly don’t know what to do. I’m in my late 20s and still live with my parents (they live really close to where I work, so it just worked out that I moved back in after graduation) and I just…. want to die?? I know I’m so selfish, but I haven’t even spoken to my parents since I got home from work yesterday. I just, ugh, WHY IS THIS HAPPENING? I can’t deal with the fact that my dad is going to DIE. Every day from here on out is going to get worse and I can’t cope with it. I know I sound like an awful person, but I honestly don’t think I can get through this.

    1. Talent Management*

      Hang in there! My Dad got a stage 4 lung cancer diagnosis last July. Treatment has gone better than expected and he is holding his own. It will be a roller coaster, but make the most of the time you have.

    3. lionelrichiesclayhead*

      I really, really encourage you to seek out a therapist who can help you to deal with this. You absolutely CAN get through this. I think you just don’t have the correct tools right now to do so. A therapist or even a good self help book can help you figure out how to grieve and still get up in the morning. We all have to say goodbye to the important people in our life at some point and while it’s a terrifying process, there are things you can do to help you make it through the day. It doesn’t mean it won’t hurt but it’s dangerous to focus on thinking that you can’t get through it.

      If you can’t get to a therapist, I would call a trusted friend TODAY and tell them how you are feeling and ask for their help. Depending on how seriously you mean that you want to die (I know people sometimes say this without meaning it literally) you can also call 1 (800) 273-8255 to reach the suicide prevention hotline. It’s good that you posted here because it means that you do want to try to figure out what to do but don’t be afraid to reach out for help!

    4. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I’m sorry. :( I second the recommendation to find a therapist. You’ll have a whole range of emotions, but you can definitely get through it.

    5. Catherine from Canada*

      Oh, I am so sorry. This is so hard, I know.
      My father died of cancer when I was 27. It sucks. I had four kids under the age of 7, my husband’s job was horrible and abusive, I was the only child still living nearby, my mom went to pieces and everything was on my shoulders.
      The main thing that helped me was something someone said when they heard that my dad was sick. This was the co-worker of a friend, someone I barely knew, which made his advice even more touching because, well, why would he care about me and my dad?
      Not “I’m so sorry.” Not “You’ll get through this.” He said, “Tell her that when my dad died, I was rat-shit for a year.”
      In other words, it’s okay to feel like you can’t cope.
      It’s okay to think, “I’m going to lose all the stories I haven’t heard yet.” (This was my (selfish?) first regret.)
      It’s okay to sit in your living room and hate the Christmas tree, and the damned happy singing on TV.
      It’s okay to think about yourself. You’re not going to stop thinking about your dad and your mom of course, and how you can help to get everyone through whatever is coming, but it’s okay to think about yourself too.
      It’s okay to scream in the car on the way to work, or to buy a box of china from the Salvation Army and throw it piece by piece against a wall, or do whatever you need to rage against this stupid thing that’s happening.
      It’s okay that you can’t think clearly right now.
      Give yourself time to get adjusted to this news, give yourself time to figure out how to live this new normal, and never ever think you’re alone.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Echoing the rat shit part. I don’t know… losing a parent is so hard. It’s a portal in life, you go through and you just know life will never be the same ever again.

        I lost my mother when I was 23 and my father when I was 34 and my husband when I was 45. The toughest loss was my father. I hear some folks say the same thing, the loss of their father just hit them HARD. I was messy, it took me a couple years to get my health back. I am not saying that to scare you, but rather in the context of “Yeah, this is super hard stuff.”

        One day at a time, okay? Do what you can today and worry about tomorrow, tomorrow.

        Try to get yourself a couple people to talk with. This can be anyone who you respect and you are willing to listen to. It could be family, friends, neighbors, a minister, a support group, a therapist. Build that little group and keep going back to them.

        My dad died 21 years ago this month and I can still see him clearly in my memories. And probably you will too. And that is okay. People pass but love does not pass. Yes, it changed me and I’d like to think that somehow I am a better person. Don’t be afraid of changes in yourself, this is one of those life changing events.

        Remind yourself that he is still here now and tell him you love him. And take care of you. It was in my father’s final illness that I learned the importance of self-care. (One of many things I learned.) Unfortunately or fortunately, depends on how you think about it, that self-care helped me to get through other things also, because I finally understood that I had to take care of me.

    6. Jade*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you. Is he going to go through treatment? There’s so much new stuff coming out all the time, hopefully there is something that can help him. You’re going to be in shock mode for a while. Once that wears off hopefully you can process through how to handle these feelings. I also recommend a therapist or at least a support group.

    7. Analyst*

      I’m so sorry. I lost my dad to cancer when I was 33. I was definitely Not Myself at work… not cheery, not interactive. But thankfully my boss had been down the same road before and my coworkers (those who knew) were supportive as well. Best of luck to you and your family, and I hope your dad has a peaceful rest of his life, however long that will be. Pallative care is good care.

  78. T3k*

    Last day of this job!!! Nervous and part of mind is thinking I’m messing up, but the other part is saying it can’t get much worse anyways (I quit without anything lined up, but my job has too many points that sucks and nothing to make it worth staying). I’m going to not focus on job hunting for the next 2 weeks because I want to use that time to use a trial period for one learning site and go to a conference/summit. Then after that I’ll start on applying to temp agencies in the area to find part time work while I focus on learning the skills I need to get where I want to be. This is probably the most risky thing I’ve done in my life, but I’m tired of playing safe because it’s never gotten me anywhere so far.

    1. AnxiouslyAnon*

      Good luck! I was literally there at the end of last month! Take a deep breath, zen out as much as you can, and then tackle the problem! You got this!

    2. Kristine*

      Sounds like you have a good short term plan as you build up a long term one. Good luck! I hope you end up where you want to be.

    3. Glasskey*

      I’m putting in my notice next week! Same situation–too much dysfunction to go into, have gone as far as I can there, no job lined up and yes, it’s scary despite planning and saving up for this possibility. What. If. I. Never. Get. Hired. Again. In my case, one of my kids decided a few months ago to transfer to a college that charges a fraction of the tuition the first college did while the other decided to enroll in a program offering simultaneous high school/college credit with no tuition fee, meaning we will have 2 kids in college next year for less than 5000 bucks. That is the cosmos telling me now is the time. So yes, scary/crazy but I am excited to retool some skills, recover physically and emotionally from years of burnout, help care for my aging parents, and give my family a much deserved end to all my complaining and moodiness. Can’t believe I am actually going to do this and yet–the inner voice says that I am going to look back on this as one of the best decisions I’ve ever made. T3k, rock on!!

  79. Oh Fed*

    One of the often cited complaints of federal employment is the concept of “Impossible to Fire.” Whether it is the attitude of a worker who believes he can get away with a poor work ethic because of it or a manager who doesn’t work through the disciplinary process, the belief that it is impossible to fire an employee is a morale-killer around here.
    This week, an employee who has been seriously problematic for years did something so egregious that a manager actually initiated a write up within minutes of the occurrence. This was a serious safety issue to a vulnerable client & the employee lied about it to cover up her negligence. The fact that the manager loudly discussed the write up and disparaged the person in a publically gives you some idea how inept this manager is and how miserable the culture is around here. The problem employee doesn’t just have a poor work ethic, she also regularly has conflicts with clients and coworkers and is just a source of frustration because of unreliable time and attendance. In the days since the situation, the talk has turned to “how bad” everyone feels that now she is going to get fired! That she “doesn’t deserve to be fired.” And people have actually lobbied the grand-boss to “just transfer her” to another department.
    What-the what?!? Is everyone brainwashed around here???

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Report the coworker to the inspector general. Time and attendance fraud is a serious thing, as is breaking safety regulations. We can ignore lots of things but IG complaints are a whole different kettle of fish.

      1. Oh Fed*

        Oh, it isn’t fraud-level abuse KtFed–it’s like chronically 10 min late, long breaks, calling in sick as soon as leave earned, etc. And she is now actually going to be fired because of the safety issue and the attitude of coworkers is to defend her!

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Oh ok – I read it as they were backtracking from firing her. Agreed it does sound ridiculous – and your boss shouldn’t be talking to you guys about this stuff until it’s done.

        2. Anna*

          I think when coworkers rally around someone they know should be fired and is terrible, it’s because everyone has even more animosity toward the management. I think that’s what’s happening here. People are fed up with both, but probably MORE fed up with the manager so they’re defending a clearly terrible coworker.

          1. Oh fed*

            Wow! I really never thought of it from that perspective. I’ve been a fed for 20+years but am still occasionally astounded by the dysfunctional thinking. Thanks for your thoughts!

        3. fposte*

          I think it’s human to feel more for the vulnerable person in the situation. Then groupthink does the rest.

  80. NacSacJack*

    What do you do when you want to look for another job externally and the last three bosses you’ve worked for (covering the last 9 years) not only still work for your company but still work in your dept?

    My situation is this – although I am well-liked by some, respected by others and good at my job, I cannot get a promotion. Let this be a warning to you all – do not ever be anything but professional – the article this past week reads like a ‘NacSacJack, this is what you did wrong and don’t do it in your next job’. I need to find it and read it. It was too painful. Anyways, back 10 years or so, we’d reorg and spin through managers about every 18 months. I’ve been with my current manager for 3 years now and he’s encouraging me to look elsewhere, but in the last 10-12 years, I’ve had 5-7 managers, 3 of the most recent still work here and the rest are scattered to the winds. What do I do? Out myself when looking for a job exteranally?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Take calculated risks? Ask for confidentiality?
      I am not too sure why you would be heavily concerned since your boss is encouraging you to look around. You pretty much have his blessing. I would start looking and see where things go from there.

  81. AnxiouslyAnon*

    I should have written this here last week, but meh, better late than never.

    So after dealing with my hellhole of a job that gave me anxiety attacks just by getting in my car to drive to it, I finally quit. I more or less lucked out into an amazing opportunity (both in terms of being able to grow and have an incredibly set of network connections), which offered me the job the day before my last day at the Anxiety Place. I accepted, had my last day there, and then took a vacation.

    I started the job last week with a half week (yay, start ups and bungled paperwork!), but this week has been my first full week. And I can say that I’m pretty much loving it. I’m getting to read so many interesting papers, the skills I am getting trained on are things I’ve been hoping to do for ages, and even though I’m the low rung on the totem pole (there are 5 people in the company, two scientists, and I’m the only bench scientist), I’ve already felt so much more in-the-loop and positive about things than I have in years. On top of that, I keep getting complimented on my ability to get things organized and stable before things get going, so we have a good skeleton of when things start ramping up to work around.

    We just had our first full-blown team meeting, and I felt right. I spent this week working a great deal (doesn’t hurt that I’m hourly), but I haven’t really felt stressed about it. I work as much as needed, and for the most part I’m no longer watching the clock wondering when I can leave. It’s great. I missed this feeling.

    Huzzah life!

  82. Nervous Accountant*

    I do have one question though; I’ve been tossing around this idea in my head since last fall, but after this tax season, it’s starting to get more cemented. I did come up with a goal, where I want to be a reviewer (review tax returns) and/or eventually team leader/manager.

    I know one of hte ways to be successful here, so i’m trying my best at that, but I want to kno whow can I bring up the other two points to my mgr/supervisor? My timeline goals are: review next season, and team lead in 3-4 seasons.

    Any guidance? Our annual review comes up in the summertime, so I’ve been keeping notes on what I want to emphasize (IF I get to that point, God willling).

    1. Not So NewReader*

      “Boss, I am really interested in taking on more responsibility/work here. Can we talk about actual steps I can take to make myself more of an asset here?”

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        and I can bring this up whenever? not have to wait until the review?

  83. Manders*

    I have an unusual clothing problem: I’m not the most stylish lady, and most of my work-appropriate clothing is grey or black because dark colors are easy to match and more durable than light colors. It’s starting to look like I’m at a funeral all the time!

    People in my industry dress conservatively, but my city is known for its casual work attire. Regular attire in my office would be business casual on the east coast: no suits, but no jeans either.

    I’d love some tips for getting more color in my wardrobe in a work-appropriate way. I’ve got lots of pretty scarves but I’m not sure how to wear them at the office. I have some colorful tights too, but they don’t seem appropriate for office attire.

    1. Kelly L.*

      My wardrobe is mostly “black and something else,” so I have a few ideas!

      A lot of tunic-type shirts come in patterns that have black and other colors interspersed in them. I’m very, very often wearing a top that’s, like, black and purple and blue abstract swirls, or black and red and gray flowers, or something. Similarly, some skirts come in the same kinds of patterns, and you can wear those with the solid dark tops.

      Also, I think really bright solids look great with black, so like a bright yellow blouse or bright red or bright purple or whatever.

    2. Jadelyn*

      Re the tights – why not? Pair a black or grey dress with brightly-colored leggings or tights, and it basically just “glams up” an otherwise-sober outfit. My boss – HR Manager for a 500+ employee nonprofit – just did that literally yesterday, in a black and white colorblock dress with mustard yellow leggings.

      That aside, I also tend to be pretty monochrome dark in my outfits, to the point where people will go out of their way to comment when I do wear something other than black pants and a dark top. My go-to for a business casual outfit with a little hit of color is black pants or skirt, bright-colored cami or tank top, and dark cardigan (usually an open-front style) over it. The overall outfit is very sober and respectable, but with a splash of color right in the middle.

    3. Total Rando*

      I’m also east coast, my work attire is probably a step closer to suits, but I definitely have days that are more casual.

      My wardrobe consists of a lot of “shell” blouses (meaning sleeveless) and cardigans. I never wear these sleeveless tops without a sweater or a blazer (including in my personal life, personal preference), but I find that it’s a lot easier to have a pop of color under a sweater (or as a sweater) to match with black/grey pants. Stick with solids or patterns that you find easy to match to your existing wardrobe. I probably have three solids to every pattern in my closet. Make sure you have a good stock of neutral sweaters.

    4. Headachey*

      I went through the all black all the time to all the colors! transition quite a few years ago. I still think an all black outfit can look sleek and sophisticated, but like you, it’s not how I want to dress all the time anymore.

      (Fun side story: I took several graduate-level courses after finishing undergrad while deciding if I wanted to go to grad school. One of my professors suggested a well known program at UCSD and I said “Oh, no, I couldn’t live in California – too sunny!” He blinked and then said,”Oh, so you don’t just dress like a vampire?”)

      I started adding color gradually by substituting one non-black piece per outfit, like grey pants with black top, skirt, and shoes, or a burgundy sweater with black skirt. Colorful tights are a great way to add a pop of color – think burgundy or dark green tights with a dress and boots.

      Next level: add prints! Take the burgundy sweater and change the black skirt for a black and burgundy patterned skirt, or wear a print dress with colored tights.

      Advanced: multiple colors with no black at all. Start with your grey clothes and add color – wear grey trousers with a grey top and colored jacket or print scarf. Try some colorful shoes. Try patterned shoes! You’ll know you’re there when you treat leopard-print as a neutral :)

      1. Laurel Gray*

        This is great advice here by Headachey! Start slow and build so your closet has brighter pieces but also pieces you like. If it takes you a while before you step away from black or brown shoes, go with a pop of color work bag like a red. For this clothing mission I highly recommend Ann Taylor (great sale right now too) as one of the stores to explore.

        And +$1M on leopard being neutral. Especially if you invest in a great leopard print flat (I’ve seen good ones from Kate Spade, Sam Edelman, and Tory Burch) you can still have your all black days without feeling boring or funeral-ish.

      2. Doriana Gray*

        I just wore leopard print flats today with black leggings and a hunter green mesh sweater (and my jacket was a bright green trench with white piping). Leopard print is totally a neutral – people barely noticed the shoes, they kept commenting on how cute the jacket is.

      1. Manders*

        Oh man, I’ve been going back and forth on a new hair color for ages. I loved blue and pink and fire engine red in high school and college, but that would be a bit much for my office.

    6. fposte*

      How do you feel about big chunky necklaces? They’re in, you can get perfectly serviceable ones quite inexpensively (Target has tons), and there’s not a lot of ambiguity about how you wear them.

      1. Manders*

        I don’t usually wear necklaces at work because I’m bad about fidgeting with jewelry, but I checked Target’s website and they do have some cute stuff. Maybe it’s time to invest in a fidget ring too so I’m not tugging at my necklace all the time.

    7. Emilia Bedelia*

      Scarves are really easy to wear, in my opinion: right now I am currently wearing a “nice”gray T-shirt,a blue/silver scarf (just looped around my neck), a navy cardigan, and khakis in my also BC East coast office. I wear a lot of neutrals in various combinations, and I feel like I look pretty put together. Khakis or grey or light blue pants might be a good way for you to branch out into lighter colors, or at least introduce variety. Scarves are really easy- if they bother you during the day, i suggest a brooch or pin to keep them in place (or a secret safety pin!) I also suggest a nice black/white patterned skirt. I have 2 skirts with different black/white patterns and I swear I wear them every week- they go with any color top and are interesting without being flashy. Cheap camisoles/tank tops are also great for adding just enough color under a sweater or cardigan. I love the Target “favorite tank” especially- they come in a billion colors and they’re on sale all the time.

      1. CM*

        Google “how to wear a scarf” and tons of ideas come up, including videos and diagrams explaining different ways to tie them.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          A couple years ago, I think, someone posted a link on how to tie a scarf. It had dozens of ways to wear them.

    8. CheeryO*

      My work uniform is basically black jeans/slacks with a gray cardigan and jewel toned shell/blouse or grey jeans/slacks with a black cardigan and jewel toned shell/blouse. Stupid easy to mix and match. FWIW, I don’t think there is anything wrong with wearing a lot of dark colors. I would just avoid doing black on top and bottom as it’s harder to pull off.

    9. Nanc*

      Have you seen the YouTube video on 25 ways to tie a scarf (I love her warm up prior to demo!)? https://youtu.be/5LYAEz777AU

      I also fasten lots of my scarves with pretty, colorful pins. I have a bunch of Coro pins from my Grandma as well as fun pins I just pick up here and there.

      I do tend to stick to blacks, greys and navy blue but I have lots of colorful purses and shoes!

    10. MsMaryMary*

      Try colorful shoes or a bag in a fun color. I switched to non-black purses about a year ago and it’s so much fun. Currently I’m switching between a bright blue bag and a black cherry colored one. Shoes are trickier because It’s difficult for me to find professional, comfortable shoes as it is, but there are lots of brightly colored pumps out here if you can wear them.

    11. Anna*

      I had to do this myself and it led to adding more color. I started with a cardigan (pretty bright green) worn with gray pants and a dark shirt, or a brightly colored top with a dark sweater and pants. The cardigan felt doable because it’s a conservative piece of clothing to start. Now I wear bright colors frequently, but my standard is one bright basic piece with neutral other pieces.

  84. Sabrina the Middle Aged Witch*

    I’m feeling super discouraged these days. I’ve been applying for jobs steadily (four to six a week) for more than a year, and have gotten exactly two interviews. I have had my resume reviewed and have followed the advice in Alison’s books.

    I’m trying to leave academia (I have a Ph.D.) and I’m just not able to break in to the entry-level jobs that I would need to be able to make the shift. I’ve got a low level academic administration job at the moment, but I haven’t been able to progress there either, primarily due to a lack of funding. (I have absolutely excellent reviews, although I will admit my work has slipped in the past few months as I’ve become rather depressed over my lack of options.)

    How do I keep my head up?

    1. Anon Moose*

      Get a job search buddy? I don’t know if you have anyone in your life who could fit that bill, but this helped me immensely.

    2. Jan*

      I hear you! I was in a similar situation a few years ago, and I know the feedback loop quite well: The fastest way to pull out of the depression is to get another job, but you can’t get another job, so you feel even more depressed, which in turn saps your motivation to keep applying for jobs…

      There’s no magic trick to stop the depression – you just have to force yourself through this, and keep your eyes on the end goal. You are smart, and you are skilled, and there are better jobs out there that will appreciate your smarts and your skills. The trick is finding them.

      It’s hard to know what actions to recommend without more information, but it’s pretty clear that if your current approach hasn’t been working, it’s time to try another angle. Maybe you need to cast your net a little wider when applying, consider a different set of industries and rework your resume to target something other than what you’ve been looking at. Maybe now’s the time to pick up new certifications or take new training classes, especially if your university will reimburse some of the cost. Or maybe it’s time to consider a temp agency, or consulting, or hiring a headhunter to market you to other companies.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreeing. But. It’s not easy to do. The best advice I have heard is to change one thing that you are doing. You can be strategic and try to change something about your job search method or you can go off on a tangent and get a new hair cut. It does not matter what you change, anything is fair game. Change that one thing. See where it puts you. Then look around target a second thing and change that. Keep doing small incremental changes until your setting changes. Check it out- the changes you make are small. But you collect up a few changes and suddenly bigger things start to change.

  85. Jadelyn*

    Does anyone have advice on how to give a reference for someone you’ve only worked with for a short period of time? (Or on giving a reference at all? I’ve never done this before tbh.)

    The context is, we have a file clerk temp who started here about three weeks ago. I’m not his supervisor officially, but because of the nature of the tasks (being things I used to do and haven’t had time for lately as my position has developed beyond its original scope) and simple proximity of an adjoining office versus our supervisor who is located elsewhere in the building, I’ve been the one directing his work and keeping an eye on things in general. Being a temp, he’s also looking for non-temp jobs, and he asked me yesterday if I would be okay with him listing me as one of his references.

    I really want to help him out – he seems to be a good guy, he’s efficient and hardworking and after a rough couple days at the start has developed a good sense of when to use his own judgment and when to ask for guidance, and besides, I used to be a temp not too long ago and I remember how much it sucks so I’d like to help him get out of that even if it means having to bring in someone new for our office. But I’ve never been someone’s reference before, and I’m not sure how to walk the line between overly-effusive (He’s great, we all love him! without mentioning he’s only been here a short time) and unintentionally cautionary (He’s only been here a couple weeks, but he’s been good so far).

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Just say exactly what you said here. You didn’t work with him for too long, but from your limited experience with him he struck you as efficient and hardworking and with good judgment.

  86. I have all the questions*

    How do you feel about timed tasks in the workplace? We are a warehouse mostly and they are starting to time people down to the second about how long it takes to complete an order. There are some tasks they want down to 8 or 9 seconds. I understand wanting to use time wisely but I feel like it’s getting to be too much. They’ve also asked half the building to not talk at all unless it is work related and the other half of the building can do as they please.

    It used to be an amazing workplace but now I’m feeling like there are signs to leave. I would definitely appreciate some advice. I’m middle manager level so I am getting pushed on both sides and not enjoying it.

    1. Jadelyn*

      That’s some overly-restrictive BS that is absolutely going to kill morale and probably increase turnover. You don’t treat people like machines (timed down to the second? No talking at all???) if you want them to actually care about and stay at their job. If you feel like you can, maybe you should approach someone higher up and voice concerns. Let them know that your employees are coming to you and telling you how unhappy they are, and you’re concerned about employee retention and longevity if they continue to pursue this course of action.

      And honestly…yeah, I’d start looking, unless they decide to reverse their current trend, because a workplace like that is only going to get worse once corporate/executive management sees “productivity gains” that resulted from treating employees like crap.

      1. I have all the questions*

        Our turnover is insane right now. We’ve lost about 12 people within 2 months and about to have 2 more.

        I’ve attempted to speak to my supervisor, who is in the upper management area, and there seems to be no issue. My review was a few months ago and they didn’t address any of my goals (which were not metric related at all) that I wanted to try out. They just hemmed and hawed in a way that was like ‘oh, you, young person. With your silly ideas.’

        They see the “productivity gains” like you said. They are replacing one manager with one who is all about metrics (the one who started it all) and I just see it going downhill. I’m really not comfortable with how things are going and once people hear about the transfer, there will be even more turnover. That manager is not popular at all.

        These timed things are all across the board too. There’s not you’ve been here for 2 years, try and meet this goal but once you are here for your first full month, you are expected to hit the goals.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Wow yeah, okay, there’s like a dozen big red “GET OUT WHILE YOU CAN” flags there. They don’t care about their employees, they are literally treating them like disposable cogs in a machine that can be replaced so who cares if you break a bunch of them?, they obviously aren’t interested in your development (and it sounds like they were pretty patronizing about it, too), and it looks like it’s only going to get worse. I would absolutely start looking for something else. :(

    2. Judy*

      My guess would be they’re trying to do some sort of study. How I would respond to that would be to understand what they’re using it for. If it’s for process improvements, looking for training opportunities, increasing headcount, then great. If it’s to compare an individual or team to others, and not just comparing year to year, it’s problematic.

      1. I have all the questions*

        It’s not for comparison purposes, we’ve had it for about 4 years now and I’ve never heard that we’ve increased productivity by _ percent. We just move the numbers down when the average becomes lower and we hold new hires to it like they’ve been here as long as our employees who have been here for 2 years. We’ve terminated people because they couldn’t hit the times before.

    3. alice*

      They’ve asked you not to talk at all and they are timing you down to the second? That sounds horribly oppressive. Maybe this is what warehouse work is like, but I see those as two major red flags.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It kind of sounds like normal warehouse stuff. Production lines are like this and they have tried to make warehouses into production lines. I won’t start talking about meat packers.

        Anyway, this sounds like a good recipe for burning out. This is who they are. A good paying job is useless if you are in the hospital.

        I don’t know if you want to get deeply involved but you could check with your department of labor to see if the time studies they are using are legal. I don’t see how they can be legal.

  87. Loblaw*

    I love this site but wondering if there is something similar but for lawyers/law jobs? I am starting to think about moving from my first associate position but want to really get a good grasp of what I want to do next before moving and am trying to find resources that are better than, say Above the Law.

    1. CM*

      I don’t know of a website, but my law school alumni network was a great help for this. I also did tons of networking and asked to have coffee with anybody whose job was remotely interesting to me.

    2. Charlotte*

      Not quite the same thing as AAM for lawyers like you asked, but I like Associate’s Mind. He recently updated his online resources guide for new lawyers, which has a really good list of resources for new and not-so-new lawyers.

  88. Brett*

    So, I went to what might be my last conference for a while (booked it before I started new job and new job does not send people at my grade to conferences on company time), and had some interesting things happen. I taught 2 days of workshops, and had the usual problem of too wide of an experience level so that some people felt too much material was over their heads. I was feeling bummed about this until I went through the rest of the conference.

    In three different presentations, people recognized me for inspiring their project after taking the same workshops from me two years ago (it is a biennial conference). One person actually created a significant open source project that his company now markets, and pointed me out to the audience saying, “Two years ago Brett showed me that this was possible. Before then, I did not even know you could do something like this.” It felt great to find out that I am having real impact on our industry.
    Towards the end, a group of people from a neighboring state talked to me about coming there next December and presenting a week long workshop at my alma mater!

    1. fposte*

      Oh, that sounds wonderful! And what a nice note on which to make your transition to your new job.

  89. Amber Rose*

    My finished accomplishments for the week include:

    Designing, ordering and having delivered the t-shirts, hoodies and flyers on time for this weekend’s convention for my non-profit. Also finalizing script edits for my talk/narration/whatever.

    Completing a massive pre-qualification application for selling to the UAE for my paying job. 20 pages. Over 100 documents. Zero errors.

    And also: not just dying in my chair despite not sleeping and consuming too much coffee for the last 72 hours.

    I’m so tired. I want more than anything for someone to pat me on the back, tell me “great job!” And send me to bed. But the reward for a job well done is, of course, more work. I won’t sleep until Monday night.

    Given all that, would it be unethical to call in and use a sick day next week? I’m not sick, but as like a mental health/preventative measures day.

    1. Caledonia*

      You’re doing a great job! And definitely use a mental health day – sounds like you need it.

    2. Is it spring yet?*

      If you have not/will not have had adequate sleep for what appears at least a week I would consider you sick. Take the day off. Your body needs to get back into good working order.

    3. fposte*

      I would take it as a personal day myself, especially since a lot of that is from volunteer stuff and not from the job. But I also don’t inquire deeply into how my staff categorize their days off.

  90. Crylo Ren*

    Does anyone have any tips for diplomatically shifting ownership of responsibilities?

    I recently joined an org that grew very quickly from a startup, so the majority of people on the team are used to wearing many hats. I will be managing a specific channel, which means that anything to do with my channel from strategy to execution and even administrative stuff like billing/invoicing for recurring expenses. But there are so many different people that have their hands in parts of the channel, with varying degrees of willingness to reduce their involvement.

    I’d really like to maintain good relationships with these stakeholders because I’ll still have to lean heavily on them for other things that are important to my success in the role, but at the same time, I’m already seeing cases where people are basically just saying “whatever, I do what I want!”

    How can I be firm, yet diplomatic when I need to say, “hey, I know you’ve done this in the past and I know you like doing it, but that’s MY job now, and you need to focus on other things”?

  91. Colette*

    So I’m off work for two weeks due to my broken foot, and my manager has been awesome. I’m not surprised – he is generally a good manager – but I know this is a pain for him, especially since we already have someone off sick.

  92. Total Rando*

    How do you maintain a level, professional emotional front without letting it explode all over your personal life when you’re having a stressful week?

    I’ve had a rough couple of weeks. Nothing personally about my work, just some extra difficult politics and a busy time (and a boss who isn’t dealing with it too well). I’ve also had several very stressful “work-like” activities in my personal life – church duties, family property management, etc – that have taken an extra toll this week.

    I believe (and a coworker confirmed) that I’ve been handling myself very well at the office. But I basically go home and explode my emotions all over my poor husband. (It certainly doesn’t help that I’m 4.5 months pregnant and hormonal and cry at the drop of a hat – so far, not at the office yet).

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Can you take a day off? I’m at about the same point right now – just close to losing it with a lot of stress in my work and personal life and I’m taking a little time for myself.

      1. Total Rando*

        Sadly probably not for a few weeks. I do have a trip scheduled for the end of May to France, so that’ll be a good reset. I already have more PTO on the schedule than I would’ve liked (see church duties above :/ ), and I’m trying to save PTO for my maternity leave in the fall.

        1. Katie the Fed*

          Ugh, I’m doing the saving my PTO thing right now too, and it sucks. I did recently have the revelation that if I didn’t take a little time off to relax, we’d never even HAVE a baby because I’d probably choke my husband. So I tried to take some time for myself to lighten up :D

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Also, I’m really sorry you’re having such a bad week. I’d love to invite you over for some mac and cheese and commiseration.

      1. Total Rando*

        Gurl, YESS!!
        But it’s okay, I get to take out my frustration tonight hitting some golf balls while eating all the yummies at Top Golf.

      2. Brett*

        Someone working for federal government during election season inviting you over for commiseration, baited with mac n cheese?

        “IT’S A TRAP!”

        (I only dealt with countywide elections, but I will never miss working for government during elections.)

    3. HeyNonnyNonny*

      Oh hey, this sounds like me! First, I warn my spouse when it’s been a bad time at work, so he knows that if I snap at him over something stupid, I’m just stressed. Second, I have a list of things that he and I can do to make me feel better– watch Family Feud, drink chocolate milk, exercise, etc. Having a few quick emotional band-aids up your sleeve can help so much! Good luck, hope it gets better for you soon!

        1. HeyNonnyNonny*

          Those are great!

          And (as long as your husband is on board with this, of course) don’t beat yourself up too much about taking it out on him– I tend to snap when I’m cranky, but it evens out once spouse starts to feel under the weather and I get a turn being the caretaker. I think ‘fair’ kinda happens automatically :)

    4. Jillociraptor*

      Oof, sorry to hear that so many things are piling up for you right now. I wonder if there are any ways you could take a few sustained breaks throughout the day to just BE, if an actual day off isn’t really in the cards right now.

      One thing that we tried when my work was going crazy so that I didn’t dump everything on my partner was to designate 15-30 minutes of “complaining time” when we got home. When that time was up, I redirected, and we could spend more pleasant time together, but I still got my few minutes of “THIS IS A MESS AND EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE!” (You know it’s bad when every sentence starts with “AND ANOTHER THING!”)

      I really hope you get a moment to catch your breath soon!

    5. AnonAcademic*

      This is a little silly but right now my spouse and I both have stressful jobs where some days we come home and rant. We’ve agreed that on “rant days” we put money in a jar ($1-5 depending on how bad it was) and then on a particularly bad day, either of us can make the call to spend the money on some kind of treat (ice cream, movies, fancy cocktails, etc.). Just last night we decided to spend it on ice cream but then my husband decided his day wasn’t THAT terrible so we continue to save it to get something bigger. It’s one of those little things that reminds us we support each other, and that for every crap day we do our best to have a fun adventure together to compensate.

  93. Caledonia*

    (formerly Carrie in Scotland – I wanted to change my name for more anonymity)

    I’m applying for a bit of a stretch position – one of the essential reqs is minute taking and setting agendas. Can anyone help me as to how to take minutes or set agendas for meetings or any online resources? Thanks

    1. Jillociraptor*

      There have been lots of great and terrible discussions of minutes on these threads, so hopefully you’ll get some good advice! The biggest thing I try to do is match my minutes to what they need to be used for: if we need to document decisions, I mostly keep the notes to what we decided. If they’re so that people can catch up if they missed the meeting, I take more extensive notes. One thing that’s often helpful is to put action items and next steps at the top, followed by the notes.

      As for setting agendas:
      – For each item, make sure it’s clear who’s leading that part of the discussion, what the outcome should be and who will be responsible for moving forward after the fact (e.g. “Manager leads. Team provides input on new sales strategy; manager makes ultimate decision”)
      – Assign a reasonable amount of time for each item; if you don’t have time for all of them, prioritize the things that need to get talked about versus the things that someone could read and follow up 1:1 with a colleague to ask questions about
      – Try to build in different modalities for engagement. Adults can really only pay attention in the same way for about 20 minutes, so it’s ideal to switch from more “lecture” or information sharing to discussion to quiet individual reflection to sharing with a neighbor to writing and so on about that often
      – Build systems for tracking agenda items. My boss will regularly shout out a potential topic for a meeting three weeks from now on her way out the door, so I have a OneNote notebook with just a list of topics we’ve discussed that I then prompt her with a week or so before the relevant meeting.

      Good luck with your application!

      1. Caledonia*

        Thank you Jillociraptor – there’s lots here I didn’t consider/know about so it’s very helpful.

    2. SL #2*

      I don’t know if there’s an “official” way to take minutes during meetings, but when I had to send out formal notes, I had an “action items” system. Divide the document in half; meeting topics and notes go on the left, and then any action items needed to be taken care of go on the right side, right next to the topic itself.

      Left side: Cersei: Consider an outside recruiting agency to help with our CEO search?
      Right side: Cersei to reach out to local executive recruiter Ned Stark to schedule a meeting.

      Basically, anyone skimming the notes would immediately see what action items need to be taken care of, with more details and context on the left side. I hope that helps!

    4. Cristina in England*

      I don’t know much about minutes, I am just saying hello to you under your new name. :-) (I saw one of your replies up thread first and thought ‘another person in Scotland!’)

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Setting an agenda: The groups I have been in has a person who requests agenda items to set the agenda for the meeting. This looks like, “I am setting the agenda for May’s meeting. Does anyone have agenda items they need to add?”

      When I write up an agenda, I like to make sure the date is at the top and there is room for random notes under/ beside each topic.

  94. Almost a Fed*

    Just gave my notice at my current job…. transition pro tips? I’m putting together a binder of processes, products, work, deliverables, etc. But that all I’ve got. Whoever comes in after me will not have access to my electronic files.

    1. Jadelyn*

      Can you transfer your electronic files to a shared drive or somewhere that they can get to them? For example, I use a lot of tracking spreadsheets that would be a huge PITA for a new person in my position to recreate from scratch, so if I were leaving I’d make sure those templates were somewhere the new person could get to them. (Conversely, I’ve deliberately deleted templates I created out of spite when one particularly nasty and toxic boss set me up to fail and then fired me for it.)

      Also – PASSWORDS. If you have any shared accounts on external services – like for me, the recruiting Craigslist account, or our Monster account – make sure the usernames and passwords are included in that binder.

      1. Almost a Fed*

        I wish – but I’ve been here 20 months without Share Drive access so I don’t see that changing! I can burn anything critical to CDs.

        1. Jadelyn*

          CDs, or maybe a cheap thumb drive – you can get 4GB ones for like $10 these days, or someone in your IT group might have one you can use.

          1. Almost a Fed*

            I am a military contractor, and thumb drives are extremely Not Okay here – sadly. Even getting an external drives requires paperwork, pulling teeth and the blood of the father, forcefully taken.

            If I ask nicely I can get a DVD. :-)

    2. Marina*

      I’d ask your supervisor what they want in terms of transitioning your electronic files. Do they prefer a CD, printouts, not care?

      1. Almost a Fed*

        The give a shit level is nonexistent. So it’s kind of up to me. I want to do everything I can to have a smooth transition and leave a positive reputation, though. If they muck it up, that’s on them.

  95. Beezus*

    I got a new work assignment this week, that starts full time next week, and I’m kind of terrified!

    I’m being reassigned to work on a prep team for a major transition we’re making next year – my job is making sure my team is ready for the transition, that the transition team covers all my team’s needs, and that my team is trained on the new way of doing things. It’s a great opportunity for me, but:

    -It means I won’t get to do ANY of the projects I was really excited to do the rest of this year. I had a lot of cool stuff lined up, and it’s all either going to be deprioritized or worked by someone who isn’t going to be as passionate about it as I was going to be, and I’m bummed.
    -I’ve spent all year hashing out some career development stuff with my boss, and that is also out of the question now. Managing our team’s interns was a big one – I have a lot of leadership stuff on my resume, but directly managing people isn’t part of it, and I really want to fix tha, and he agreed that I’ve earned the opportunity. I won’t have time now, someone else gets to do it, and this project won’t give me that opportunity, either.
    -My work conditions are changing and no one asked me if I was okay with that. I haven’t had to travel much ever, and not at all the last couple of years. I know this project will involve travel, I have no idea how much – people involved in this project are doing anything from an overnight here and there to weeks on end and I have no idea where in that spectrum I fall, but I need to be close to the “occasional overnight” end.
    -I will still technically have the same boss, but my time will be managed by someone on the project team, and I don’t know who yet.
    -I have vacation plans and family plans that line up really inconveniently with the project timeline I’ve seen, and nobody can reassure me that I don’t need to replan those things. The job I left for this one had really crappy work-life balance issues and my family and I have just started relaxing with the knowledge that I can take time off here and there and I can commit to family plans outside my work hours without worrying about work interruptions, and I really, really don’t want to undo that.

    This change is a really good career opportunity for me, and I’m uniquely qualified for it, so I understand that I’m a no-brainer candidate for it, but I’d feel so much better about it if someone answered my questions and acknowledged, even briefly, that I might have feelings other than TOTAL EXCITEMENT YAY! about it. I have a meeting with my boss on Monday to sort out which of my projects and duties are going where, and hopefully I can get some answers there, and maybe they’ll have figured out who I’m dotted-line reporting to on the project team to get the rest of the answers from.

  96. WS*

    How do you recover from a period of bad attendance at work? In my case, it’s a combination of previously-agreed vacations, one last-minute trip (that my boss was gracious enough to give me time off for), and several emergencies (death in the family, severe illness, etc.). I know the obvious answer is “don’t miss any time off going forward!” but should I talk to my boss and let him know that I’m aware of how poor my attendance has been and that I’m going to actively make sure that that changes? Or would it be weird to have that conversation randomly one day? He hasn’t said anything to me about missing so many days so I can’t tell if he’s annoyed by it or not.

    (Also, as a sidenote, this is one of two part-time jobs I’m working at the moment. Both bosses know about the other job. I’ll be quitting the other part-time job to take on more hours here in about a month or so, since this job pays better and I’ll be moving closer to this job anyway. Would it be too drastic to put in my notice at the other job earlier, so I can start working more hours here sooner, or is that a good way to show my commitment to this job?)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I know the obvious answer is “don’t miss any time off going forward!” but should I talk to my boss and let him know that I’m aware of how poor my attendance has been and that I’m going to actively make sure that that changes?

      I would do both. Yes, talk is cheap, but it doesn’t hurt to acknowledge that you’re aware of the past and hoping to make up for it in the future… just be sure to follow through.

    2. Marina*

      Personally I would wait to show improved attendance before quitting your other job. If you do talk to your boss about it, I would focus on what you’re going to do in the future to improve your attendance, rather than just apologizing.

      1. CM*

        I think in this case, WS didn’t do anything wrong and several of the absences were emergencies. Rather than apologizing, I’d just say something to the boss like, “I really appreciate how flexible you’ve been about my schedule, since it was bad timing to have planned vacations right around the same time as all those family emergencies. I want you to know that going forward, I’m going to consistently be at work as scheduled.” (Or something better than that last sentence. The point is, “thank you” rather than “sorry.”)

        1. AnxiouslyAnon*

          I would honestly leave that last sentence of “I want you to know that going forward, I’m going to consistently be at work as scheduled” out. Vacations were planned (with the one short notice one being an exception), and the rest is life. Emergencies happen. If the boss isn’t saying anything about it, I wouldn’t worry, unless you are getting signals from him that he IS annoyed. But yes, acknowledging how thankful you are for them being flexible wouldn’t hurt.

  97. EE Lady*

    I just applied to work at Tony Stark’s space teapot company, so everyone please wish me luck! Too bad Alison’s guide can’t prepare me for the technical parts of the interview and the brain teaser questions :-) I feel really good about doing well in the interviews apart from that though!

  98. Anonymous Educator*

    Not really a problem, but has anyone else had this happen to them?

    I have a co-worker I don’t work with regularly, but we’re on friendly terms. We take the same bus into work but get on at different stops. When I get on the bus, I don’t sit near him, and I don’t say “Hi” to him, and he doesn’t say “Hi” to me either, and I love this. But at work, we’re friendly. We’re not best buddies, but we’re not cold professional either.

    I’m totally fine with this, and he seems fine with it too. Is that weird? Has anyone else experienced this? When I’m on the bus, I’m just not in work mode and don’t want to interact with co-workers.

    1. HeyNonnyNonny*

      This seems normal. I read on my commute in to work, so 1. I wouldn’t notice a coworker anyway, and 2. Sometimes I tear up at emotional parts in books and I’d be super embarrassed if anyone tried to talk to me during that!

    2. Isben Takes Tea*

      Yes, totally normal. Someone in my office ended up taking the exact same commute train from the same station/time as I did–even our preferred car was the same–and even though we were friendly at work, we politely ignored each other or occasionally smiled (if we happened to make eye contact). It was fine, because it helped reinforce work/life boundaries.

    3. Jadelyn*

      My experience on public transit has generally been that everyone tries to politely ignore everyone else anyway, so no, it’s not weird. You’re not on the clock, so while you’re on that bus, you’re not coworkers – just two people sharing a mass transit system.

    4. SL #2*

      I used to live 1 stop away from a coworker. He wasn’t my manager, but we worked closely on lots of projects and I was the junior position. We rarely left at the same time, but in the mornings, sometimes he’d already be on my train when I got on. The first time it happened, it was my first or second week at the job, so he invited me to sit with him and chat, and it was really great for us to get to know each other. After that, we just did the head-nod and went to our separate seats.

      Whenever we worked late, though, we always shared an Uber because we literally lived along the same major street. Very convenient!

    5. Not Karen*

      Sounds like what I do. I take the same bus as a coworker. We don’t interact on the bus unless something crazy happens (like that one time the bus got hit by a car). When in the office or at events, we interact normally and pleasantly.

    7. Cristina in England*

      Does it mean I don’t have good boundaries if I would say hello to this coworker? I would find it really awkward to ride the bus together and not at least smile and nod.

      2. Betty (the other Betty)*

        I’d say hello but sit far enough away to not feel like we had to have a conversation. If I had to sit closer, I’d toss in something about, “Have a good evening. I’m going to read my book/listen to this podcast/try to nap now” to make it clear that I wasn’t interested in chatting.

    8. Tris Prior*

      Not weird. Most everywhere I have worked, many co-workers all take the same train and we all do that urban politely-ignoring thing

    9. Rob Lowe can't read*

      Totally normal. When I used to commute on public transit, my morning commute was MY time, and I guarded it fiercely. I had two coworkers who took the same bus as I did for the final leg of our commute, and after one of them commented on this I was honest about the fact that I preferred to be alone with my music/podcasts/thoughts in the morning. We did often ride together and chat on the way home, though – but to me that felt more natural, since we’d just spent a couple of hours working together and there were always events of the day to talk about.

  99. alice*

    Why do people refer to their employers as teams? I have been working at the same place for 2.5 years. We’re a small company (five employees), and we each have completely different roles. A newer employee recently started calling us a “team” and suggesting that we hold weekly staff meetings. This all seems really unnecessary. He seems to want us all to be buddies, which I also find unnecessary.

    So I’m curious – do you think you are part of a “team” with your coworkers? Is that a necessary aspect of work life?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I like it – it emphasizes that we’re all supporting the same big goals and working together on it.

      As far as being buddies – cut the kid a little slack :) He’s new – he probably just wants to get to know the people he’s working with a little.

    2. LQ*

      I think it depends. I am definitely part of 1 team, maybe 2. The team frequently works together on stuff, has team meetings to divvy up work and check in to see where everyone is at. I work for a government that has thousands of staff on the big scale. Thousands on the my big department scale. Hundreds on the who I’d tell you I work for scale. And about 5 on my team.

      At my former job I was one of 2 employees, we had a handful of consultants as well. I would have never called that a team. There wasn’t a need for a smaller group within that group. We would meet when we were working on something together or needed to. But team meetings or staff meetings weren’t exactly necessary.
      (I hope that helps.)

    3. The Bread Burglar*

      I have always considered a team a group of people who work in the same department doing the same or similar roles. I don’t work in finance so I wouldn’t consider anyone who works in the finance department to be part of my “team.”

      I can kind of see where he is coming from that the 5 of you are a team because you don’t have the divide of large departments. The weekly staff meetings seems odd. Is this new employee a manager/director? While I like staff meetings whether or not they are necessary really depends on the business/industry and what is happening within it. And I don’t think they are necessary to be weekly unless there are major changes happening which ideally need discussing/reporting updates. It sounds to me like your new employee wants to know more of who does what and wants more involvement in the company itself. But thats just my guess.

    4. fposte*

      Yes. We’re working together toward a common goal, and we benefit from cohesion.

      That doesn’t mean we have to all hang out together, and maybe your company was happy the way it was (except for 20% of your company, of course); in a very small company it’s possible you’re already up on what everybody’s doing. But periodic meetings to know what’s going on with everybody are really advantageous in most workplaces.

    5. ThatGirl*

      I work for a large company, about 1000 people in this building, 5,000 or so across the country. My department is about 50 people. I work closely with 7 others, writers and editors. So I call them my team. And we are a team – our work directly feeds each other and we have similar responsibilities.

    6. SL #2*

      My coworkers and I are definitely a team. We’re working together towards a common goal and we complement each other’s skills and weaknesses. I don’t know what else we could call ourselves!

    7. Not Karen*

      We have actual project teams as part of our organizational structure, so that’s how I think of work “teams.” I don’t think of it in terms of “buddies” or “Go team!” kind of thing.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      So clearly it is ME. I kind of give an eye roll to the use of the word “team(s)”. It rings hollow for me, because usually when I hear it, it is in a forced/contrived context. Usually the group is anything but a cohesive unit and usually the person using the word is the one who is least likely to want to build group cohesion. I guess it’s on a par with the way other people feel about “but we are faaaamily”.

      Of course, on the outside I show no reaction. But the frequent use of the word “team” throws up an internal flag for me.

      I chose to refer to our immediate cluster of people as “our group”. It must be that I have moved “team” to the category of “Overused Business Buzzwords”.

  100. PeachTea*

    I work in the corporate office of a local chain restaurant. There’s only about 14 of us in the office which includes the CEO/Owner, the Executive VP, and the other members of the senior executive team. While we’re all considered part of the ‘executive’ team, there’s 6 of us that aren’t considered part of the ‘senior executive team.’ On Wednesday, the 6 of us not considered senior executives received a very generous (over $100) gift card to a local spa for Administrative Professional’s Day from the CEO and Executive VP.

    My question is… how do I thank them? The gift card was handed out by our direct managers since the CEO and EVP weren’t in the office that day so I couldn’t thank them as it was given. Do I write thank you notes? Is that appropriate in a professional setting? Or is the gift card itself a ‘thank you’ to me so it’d be like thanking a thank you? I’m lost on what is the proper course here. TIA!

    1. Jadelyn*

      I might send a group email to everyone involved – your manager, the CEO and EVP, and anyone else who was part of that – just a quick note saying “I feel so appreciated, thank you all so much!” or something like that.

    2. Marina*

      Yes, a brief thank you note is always appropriate. If there’s anything in particular you appreciate about working there or about the CEO and VP, you could include a sentence about that as well. But definitely keep it short and simple.

  101. Chris*

    I got an exciting job offer yesterday! It is within the same organization on a different team. The salary they offered is 10% above my current salary. The job is a substantive increase in responsibility. I’m a proponent of always negotiating, but in my field it can be really difficult to figure out market value. I am in non-profit environmental conservation. Because my org is one of the larger ones, I already get paid quite a bit more than most comparable jobs I’m finding in the various salary resources. It would be really the most helpful if I could find comp salaries WITHIN my org, but those are hard to come by it seems, even on glassdoor. Any advise on how to proceed with requesting a larger increase in this instance?

    The salary is below the mid-point of the salary range, so that is something to bring up, but honestly every one of my employees could make that case.

    I’d l some ideas!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Cost of living in your area?
      Show the differences in levels of responsibilities? (ie: 10% pay increase vs 30% responsibility increase)

  102. Anonymous Educator*

    I’m not currently looking for a job, but I don’t think I’ll be where I am for the rest of my life. I sort of stumbled into tech (no related degree, no formal training, no certifications), and I’ve managed to get tech jobs peripherally related to schools (either in schools or in companies that serves chools) and excel at those. If I were to ever look in the private sector, how much would it matter that I have no related degrees (think humanities instead of information systems or computer science) or any certifications?

  103. Mirilla*

    I am so close to walking out of this dysfunctional, unfair, poorly managed company that I could cry. I’ve been looking for almost 6 months and feel trapped here. My mother in law quit her toxic job the other day but she’s retired so has back up income. I wish I could follow in her shoes but don’t have that option right now. I’ve been patient but tired of seeing people treated like dirt (myself included.) I’m having “I quit. You are the worst person I have ever worked for'” fantasies daily. ** sigh **

    1. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      Oh I am SO in this boat with you. I know someone that recently did quit her job. She had a terrible boss and a string of coworkers who were idiots that the boss would defend. She finally told him where to go and how to get there. She just walked out. I’m not sure what she’s going to do now but I admire her courage. She was recently widowed so there’s no second income to rely on. I think she just got to the point where life is too short.

    2. Shannon*

      I did this once. It was beyond worth it because my mental and physical health were suffering. My boss was a habitual liar, bordering on sociopath. I left with no job, but I just had enough confidence that something else would work out. It did. Sometimes you need a leap of faith.

  104. Applesauced*

    Did anyone else see the article in the NY Post about “MEternity leave”? (link to follow)

      1. Chris*

        Just read it based on the link – thanks! Interesting. Honestly, I feel this a lot. As a childless woman it often seems that the personal time of my colleagues with children is more valuable. It’s not so much the maternity leave itself as the fact that when they don’t get their work done it seems more acceptable. I always feel like a terrible person expressing this because we all have a right to set boundaries at work, but it seems like (at least my organization) those with children have a bit more latitude. I have never been able to tell if it is a societal issue or prevalent within my field. I also dislike that the author completely leaves men out of the article.

        1. CM*

          You have a very valid point, and workplaces need to stop valuing certain types of people/families over others. EVERYBODY needs to have a life outside of work.

          That said, MEternity…ugh. I wasn’t relaxing and having lots of “me” time, I was recovering from major abdominal surgery that left me unable to walk more than a block for nearly a month, barely sleeping, and… well, I’ll spare you the litany of other medical horrors that were happening during that time.

        2. Student*

          The flip side is that, generally speaking, women with children get less promotions and are taken less seriously than women without children. This is the soft bigotry of low expectations in action. It’s wrong, but it is prevalent. They are let off the hook for more work, but it comes with a major downside that isn’t as visible as the low-expectations side.

          Do you really want to be held less accountable and taken less seriously (and make less money) like the women with children, or held more accountable and taken more seriously at work?

      1. Katie the Fed*

        I’ll add that I like the idea of taking a sabbatical or a longer vacation – I’ve often dreamt of taking 2-3 months off to just focus on some hobbies or writing or whatever. But calling it “Meternity” is shamelessly mommy war-baiting.

        1. Chris*

          Totally agree with the “mommy war-baiting” comment! Even though I struggle with this (my comment above) I really don’t like the tone of further separating moms from others.

      2. CMT*

        That’s what I thought when I saw the headline. I don’t need to waste my time on that kind of stuff.

    3. AMT 2*

      I was both intrigued and appalled – for one thing, for most people ‘maternity leave’ is not a time for YOU – its’ a time to lose sleep realizing how much you suck at juggling a billion things and not even getting to shower much less become more sure and confident of yourself through introspection! So I think a sabbatical is a vastly different thing. I get the perspective from her side though – parents have ready-built excuses that cant be ignored: “Daycare closes at 6 pm I cant stay late” gets a different reaction than “I have dinner plans with a friend at 6”. So I get that but the whole thing felt really…. odd to me.

  105. NewDoc*

    I got a post-residency job! Just signed the contract this week! Thanks to this website for the advice on negotiations — I got a signing bonus just by asking for it! (me: “and can we talk about a signing bonus?” Boss: “how about $10000?”)

    Incidentally, I did want to mention that I think my field is an exception to the cold-calling directive, at least in primary care positions (I had posted a question about this on the open thread a few months ago). I ended up following my mentor’s advice and making calls and got around 5 interviews that way, though the position I ended up accepting was via networking.

    1. Lucie*

      Congratulations! Hope the job is everything you’re hoping for and more :-) I just accepted a job offer myself, yay us? I chickened out of negotiating though, but I am pretty sure the offer was not negotiable anyway.

  106. We all fall down the you get back up*

    After 3 phone interviews for a vendor sales position with a small family company, I was flown out of state for a face-to-face meeting with the owners.
    All was great, we talked for hours. Then one owner spoke of some duties that were really not do-able, only because they are associated with a completely different role, that of the distributor (In my industry the distributor hires the vendor). They are absolutely aligned with the goals and success of the role I applied for, and I’ve previously worked as a distributor, so I know that’s a different job all together. I kept saying “I must be misunderstanding you” and “do you mean ABC instead of XYZ?”…they meant every word. I just can’t do both roles, that’s why a vendor hires a distributor.
    So I don’t think I’ll get called back! That said, I am unemployed, and I don’t want to take the first position that comes along. But I wonder if I should have lied and said, “Sure I can do that”, and then lose my job when I miss those goals in 6 months. Any thoughts?

    1. The Bread Burglar*

      I think you were smart to question it. If its a role you know you can’t do (and nobody should really as they are definitely two different jobs!) than you already know you won’t succeed in the role. You aren’t likely to be happy in this role and/or stay in it. While the paycheck is not to be scoffed at, its also not a great idea if you think its something you would be fired/not pass probation about 6 months down the road.

      Personally if I were in your shoes I would prefer to job hunt for longer now rather than having to job hunt later on with a short term role on my CV and potentially a bad reference or leave it off the CV and have an even larger unemployment gap.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You did the right thing. Never put yourself where you know you will fail- it’s more of that self respect thing. These things are always much clearer if we think of a friend. Would you advise a friend to take a job when the friend says to you, “I know I will fail.”?

  107. S0phieChotek*

    Katie the Fed’s post reminded me that I have been thinking about this anyway…so there are often letters/threads about Toxic Bosses, Toxic Coworkers, etc.

    What are some of your stories of “karma” — when it seems like the Toxic Boss/Toxic Coworkers that seems to get away with everything, etc. finally sees the return of “karma”?

    1. Wendy Darling*

      When I was a temp I had a difficult coworker who was also a temp. She was rude, abrasive, pushy, bossy, and would connive to steal work out from under people and claim the credit, or just claim sole credit for a group effort. She insulted me to my face on a few occasions. She told multiple people who were hired for full time jobs that SHE should have gotten their job because she was more qualified. Unfortunately our mutual manager was a lovely and nurturing person who felt it was her job to coach Difficult Coworker into not being horrible. This did not work but Difficult Coworker was not dismissed despite bringing team morale to shocking lows.

      Finally her contract expired and was not renewed. She had applied for multiple internal full-time positions and got none of them, I assume because she was as arrogant and condescending in interviews as she was everywhere else.

      We’re connected on Linkedin. It’s been almost two years. She still doesn’t have a job. She’s incredibly smart and well-qualified but she’s such a horrorshow to work with or even be in a room with that she cannot get anyone to hire her. Last I saw she’d started her own consulting firm, which has no paid projects and no employees because no one wants to work with her.

    3. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I had one coworker who was just mean and didn’t want to do her job. My second to last day she literally cursed me out in the office while other coworkers and her boss looked on and did nothing. I had a friend who still worked there though (she wasn’t present during the cursing incident). A couple of months later she put in her notice and said she’d taken a job elsewhere. Two weeks go by and it’s her last day. She confesses that she doesn’t have another job lined up, that she faked it because she wanted a raise and thought that if the company thought she was leaving, they would try to counter the pay. And they didn’t. They said sorry, we already replaced you. So she was out of a job.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        We had one guy on a project I was on pull that stunt. I wasn’t his manager but I did a lot of the coordination for the project and worked super closely with his manager, and he’d been a pain in our butts from day one. He kept claiming exorbitant amounts of overtime for tasks that shouldn’t have taken that long, and complaining about how haaaaaaaard it was to do things that were just, you know, his job. And not terribly hard.

        Right around the time we discovered he’d been bullying his direct reports and lying to us, he asked to meet with his manager and told her it wasn’t working out so he was giving his two weeks’ notice. Her response was “Okay.”

        He’d actually been gunning for a raise and was horrified when she didn’t try to convince him to stay. His behavior was so appalling in the first week of his notice period that we told him to turn in his stuff and stop coming to work and paid him to gtfo for the second week.

    4. Dawn*

      The Senior VP at my last job (software company with a TON of Fortune 1000 customers) who was responsible for completely, utterly, and totally screwing up the IT department to the point where half the department quit and everyone had way too much work to do was unceremoniously perp-walked out the door once the CXO’s took their heads out of the sand.

      Also, same job, two of the most toxic CXO level execs who were scheming to consolidate more and more power (and screwing up pretty much everything in the process) were fired post haste, with the CEO sending an email to the whole company that said (and I quote) “I will be taking on the responsibilities of This and also That effective immediately. Since John was responsible for This and Xavier was responsible for That, their services are no longer required at Company.” Coldest thing I’d seen in a long time!

    5. ACA*

      My first job was in a specialized in-bound call center – very specialized; I had three weeks of full-time training before I ever got on the phones, and another three weeks before I was allowed on the phones without someone listening in. About a year after I started, I had a Terrible Management Consultant who fired all our managers, completely reorganized our department, brought in one of her friends to be our new manager (she was a Terrible Boss in her own right), and completely killed morale even before she told us that they were outsourcing the call center (locally, not internationally) and we were all being let go at the end of the summer unless we wanted to transition to the outsource team at like a 50% pay cut.

      Less than a month after my last day, someone from the new call center called me to beg me to come temp for them, as many hours as I wanted, for $13/hr (a high rate for temping, but significantly less than I’d been paid as an employee). Why? Well, it turns out that when you only give your employees three days of training instead of three weeks, they are shockingly ineffective at their jobs. I had already found a new job, and I took great delight in a) turning her down, and b) knowing that Terrible Management Consultant’s grand plan was crashing and burning.

      And just recently, one of my former coworkers told me that Terrible Management Consultant had been unceremoniously fired, just like she’d done to our old managers. Sweet, sweet justice.

    6. Ann Furthermore*

      I had a horrible boss once who rained misery into my life for 6 dreadful months before I was able to move to another department. His chief conniving minion, who worked for me, cozied up to him and weaseled her way into a promotion that resulted in about half of my team (to their horror) being assigned to work under her. They were both nasty, awful individuals, and treated people absolutely horribly.

      Then he left, and took her with him to his next job. About a year later I heard they were both miserable because the CEO of the company they’d gone to was…wait for it…a nasty, awful individual that treated people absolutely horribly, including them.

      HA HA HA.

    7. Jen RO*

      Coworker #1 was bitter for years after Coworker #2 was promoted to team lead. Coworker #1 was the type of person to never make a decision without checking with 3 people, “that’s not my area” was her mantra, and she felt like her age and seniority entitled her to the job (she had only been hired 6 months earlier than coworker #2 and both were new to the industry; their age was, obviously, irrelevant). Fast forward 3 years, Coworker #1 finally got a team lead position on a new team… and is hating it, because, surprise! she needs to make decisions by herself and everything has to be “her area” because her only report is very new. She is incredibly bad at seeing her own faults and, in my meanest moments, I wish I could see her first epic failure.

    8. Jade*

      Well it hasn’t happened yet but I’m still holding onto hope- it looks like my toxic former boss’ financially flailing company may be heading out of business in the next few months. I really hope so, if for no other reason than to spare future employees from having to put up with his crap.

    9. Ann Cognito*

      A former boss was VP of our department and she was way under-qualified for the role (prior to this role, she’d always been an individual contributor), although she herself thought she was awesome. She’d been in the job about a year.

      She was way overpaid for what she did, given that she didn’t have the experience, and she was also a bully, who ‘worked from home’ two days a week, but was strangely never available when you tried to reach her during those times. When in the office, she would yell, put you down in front of others, send berating emails in all caps, send IMs late at night and at weekends demanding a response immediately, deny she had told you to do something one way and yell because you’d done it ‘wrong’. Basically, anything she could do to make life miserable, she would do. I could go on, but after four months I’d had enough so I applied for a few jobs one night, and luckily one of them panned out, so I was able to quit within a few weeks of applying for the new jobs.

      I was so relieved to be away from her. I would sometimes wonder about karma, but didn’t really think it would work, at least not for a long time. Then, about six months later I heard that she was fired, although she got a 12-month severance deal. Because of that, she didn’t look for a new job right away (up to that point, she’d always found new jobs quickly). When the severance ran out she started looking, but the economy had tanked (this was 2008/2009), so she eventually ended-up working as a waitress once unemployment ran out, and she’s still doing last I heard (nothing wrong with waitressing; just it makes me smile grimy when I think of her doing it as she was so conceited, and was actually rude and condescending to wait staff). A friend of a friend knows her, so I hear what’s happening that way!

      She’s never managed to get back into the field, I think because she was in a VP-level position, when her entire experience prior to that was individual contributor, so employers for individual contributor positions probably think she’ll leave as soon as something better comes along, and she’s not qualified for the higher level jobs.

    10. Anon for this*

      One of my vendors enjoys telling the guy who fired me how much he (the vendor) misses working with me. Rumor through the grapevine says the person who replaced me is not pleasant.

    11. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I have a few former fellow interns who were terrible in varied ways who have not been able to get jobs in our field (2 years after graduation) because of how awful they were during their internships and school. One in particular altered her internship schedule pretty drastically, in a way that was very much Not Allowed (licensing in our field mandates at least X weeks and Y hours of internship, and our school required slightly more), and would tell different lies about her schedule to different parties (one lie to fellow interns, another to her site-based supervisor, another to our university-based supervisor, etc.). What really pissed me off was that eventually both supervisors started asking me about Terrible Intern’s lies (not my job to mind her, first of all), and when I told them the facts as they had been presented to me they both responded that it was clear Terrible Intern was lying, this was unacceptable, and there would be consequences (which could/probably should have led to dismissal from the program)…and then there was never, ever evidence of those consequences. Terrible Intern was also really rude to our professors, again with no apparent consequences for her actions, not even as simple as being called out for her rudeness and bold-faced lies. (You really can’t argue that you were never told that X was a required assignment when there are 9 other people in the room who recall being told so, and also it was in the syllabus, and also why did you think we’d been spending all of our class time for the last 6 weeks working on X if X wasn’t required?) Although I know that the lack of critical recommendations was ultimately her consequence, it was so frustrating to go through a year of school and interning with this woman who seemed to get away with everything, and to hear her professors and supervisors decrying her bad behavior to everyone but her.

      Terrible Intern is apparently busing tables at a swanky downtown restaurant and still complaining about how the “connections” she made during her internships haven’t panned out and led to job offers.

  108. Lucie*

    I don’t have a work query buuuut….using this website’s tips on interviewing, I finally got a job offer!! That is, if the background/references check doesn’t somehow make them rescind their offer. And if the cringeworthy, obnoxious email I sent back (hindsight = 100%) doesn’t rub them the wrong way to the point that they pull the offer. Anyways. I’m so excited!! It was really starting to keep meup at night as I’m literally a week away from my final college exams and after that I had nothing lined up.

  109. Wendy Darling*

    At my new job I am THE data analyst. The only data analyst. No one else does any kind of analysis more complicated than Excel pivot tables. There are a few people who code but they’re in a different part of the org chart AND not physically near me.

    Also everyone works remote. There’s an office that some people, including me, live near, but it’s actually kind of terrible to work in (crappy chairs, not enough desks, the entire office shares one plug strip, no power outlets convenient to the conference tables you have to sit at, limited options for food/coffee nearby, ultra-thin walls so even if you’re in an office with a door closed EVERYONE can hear EVERYTHING) so people mostly don’t go there.

    The upshot of this is I am SO LONELY! I’m sitting at home or in a coffee shop doing my work, which I don’t get to discuss in any depth with anyone because no one understands it. If I struggle with something I don’t have anyone to discuss it with or bounce ideas off of. I actually had a dream last night that I was at my previous employer and they asked me to come back (I was laid off) and I was SO HAPPY because they had their issues but I had a huge support system and tons of people to talk shop with.

    I’m test-driving a co-working office next week (gonna do a few days as a drop-in and then decide whether to sign up for a full month) and also starting attending a local women’s programming usergroup for one of the languages I use. I’m hoping those things will help, but I’m interested in any suggestions anyone else has.

    It’s possible this job is just not an awesome fit for me but even if that’s the case I need to suck it up for at least a year unless it gets really catastrophic, because I’m early in my career and the longest I’ve spent anywhere is 2 years at my last job. :/

    1. Dawn*

      Co-working and professional groups were the two recommendations I had! I think those both will help a lot with the feelings of isolation. Professional groups especially!

      1. Wendy Darling*

        A lot of the professional groups for my field are sort of… huge and focused on networking and getting a head, which isn’t what I want. So I’ve zeroed in on a local Pyladies chapter, which is a user group for women who use Python, and it’s pretty small and seems less focused on OMG LET’S NETWORK and OMG LET’S WATCH A PRESENTATION ABOUT SOME PRODUCT and more about sitting down and getting help with stuff you’re doing.

        I can’t necessarily get help with directly work-related stuff, but just having people to talk to who understand what I’m talking about sounds amazing right now.

        1. JuniorDev*

          Glad you found that!

          I kind of lucked into this, but do you have any friends who also work from home that would enjoy co-working regularly? I and another work-from-home friend hang out to work together at his house a few days a week.

          If you don’t know anyone like this you could make a meetup group or similar that works at a cafe at the same time each week, and see if you get to know anyone well enough you’d want to have a coworking arrangement with them.

    2. S0phieChotek*

      I hear you. I feel the same way. The one person I could call on the telephone and bounce ideas off got laid off, so now I am by myself.

      Sorry…maybe just finding good non-work groups (around an interest) can make up?

  110. Aella*

    Etiquette question! You have taken the last jammy dodger. Do you a) bin the packet or b) leave the packet to taunt those in search of biscuits, then react with complete bafflement when said person returns, and mentions that it’s so annoying when people do that, and that they’ve binned it. Just…actual “you binned it?!?” bafflement

    1. Caledonia*

      There is nothing worse than thinking there is a treat – or milk – going to grab one only to grab air. It’s mean. If you take the last one, you bin the empty packet or go out for milk if you finish it.

    2. Sadsack*

      Not sure I understand– what is the argument for leaving the empty container out, besides briefly fooling people? Throw away the empty container and move on.

    3. Cristina in England*

      You should bin the packet and go out in your lunch hour to buy more. In my last office, the rule was that you cannot have a biscuit shelf with no biscuits on it! I loved that place. The first thing they showed me on my first day was the biscuit shelf.

    4. Mockingjay*

      My children do b), take the last treat and leave the package.

      They are punished.
      (Not really, they are grown now. :) )

      Rule: If you take the last one, throw away/recycle the package and then PUT THE ITEM ON THE LIST.

      Similar Rule for Coworkers: If you take the last one, dispose of the package, and leave a thank you note.

  111. Marina*

    I had a job interview last week and they called my references Tuesday, and now I am both trying to pretend they won’t call so I can let it go, and prepare for a potential salary negotiation. They say the ability to keep two conflicting ideas in mind at once is a sign of intelligence, right?

    I need some salary negotiation advice. This job (and my background) is in the nonprofit field, and I’ve seen salaries for similar jobs range from $35k to $50k. How do I make a case that I should be towards the top of that range when “market value” is over such a huge range? A lot of the skills they’re looking for are “soft skills” that I worry will be difficult for me to quantify their value when it comes to salary. I’d love any help/encouragement I can get. :)

  112. Tattooed*

    I’ve been offered a new job (yay!) and they have sent me the paperwork to sign and a bunch of policy stuff to read before my first day. I’ve looked over their general employee handbook and the dresscode and it says “tattoos must be covered where possible.”

    I have 1 tattoo (and only the one) on my arm about 4-5″ below my wrist on my inner arm. Its in memory of my sister who committed suicide 4 years ago. Its a small tasteful flower. I wear a lot of 3/4″ tops and the tattoo just barely peeks out of that. It is just a basic black tattoo with no colour. I’ve never had a problem with it in the workplace before and have been complemented by previous bosses on it.

    The thing is I don’t want to cover it. It has a huge emotional attachment for me and the idea of covering it up (especially with makeup or a bandage) feels wrong. The policy at the new place appears to be a blanket policy for all employees regardless of if they are public facing or not (I wouldn’t be). How would you recommend navigating this? Should I just wait and ask my manager about it once I start? I don’t mind wearing longer sleeves now but come mid-summer? The only thing I can think of if they have a problem is finding somewhere else or investing in a lot of lightweight cardigans and running the risk I accidentally roll them up too high.

    1. Lucie*

      Hi, I also have a smallish visible tattoo (script). It’s inside my wrist and what I did was that since I started an internship in the winter, I kept it covered with a watch/ sleeves and when the summer came, I started wearing short sleeves and people started noticing it but didn’t really care because I had been there for long enough – I think it I had shown it off when they met me their impression of my work ethic, etc. could have been tainted (conservative office) but since I’d shown myself to be reliable for enough time, they knew I wouldn’t show it in front of clients, etc. so didn’t care if it was visible when sitting at my desk :) Hope this helps!

      1. 1stTimeSupervisor*

        I would speak with my supervisor about it. You don’t need to go into too much personal detail (i.e. can say “it’s a deeply personal tattoo that I got in memory of my sister who is no longer with us and the thought of covering it with makeup, bandages, is a hard one for me. What do you recommend?”

        If I had an employee say something of the sort to me, it would be helpful in navigating the situation. If she can bend the rules or not is really based on different factors, but allowing her the chance to (potentially) assist you with something that matters to you would likely mean a lot to her!

    2. Liana*

      I have multiple tattoos and my organization has a similar policy, but they’ve never really enforced it for me – I don’t work in a patient-facing role, so it may just not be a big deal to them. Honestly, I’d suggest wearing longer sleeves for now, and once you’re a bit more established, casually bring it up with your manager.

      1. Chris*

        Agree! I have a lot of tattoos and have good, yet mixed responses. I would cover it up until you get a feel for the office culture.

    3. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Wear sleeves for now and try to scope things out there. Unless it’s a really conservative workplace, I doubt it will be an issue.

      I believe our dress code says the same thing, but I sometimes see people with wrist or ankle tattoos and nobody cares. Honestly, as long as it’s nothing offensive, I doubt anyone would say anything. The inside of your arm won’t be that noticeable anyway.

      1. AnotherTeacher*

        +1 on this

        A small, single color tattoo that may or may not be visible during casual interaction is not likely to catch anyone’s attention.

    4. 3D Queen*

      I used to work at an upscale, old-fashioned skin care company as front desk, and meticulously covered up my ink. I have pretty significant and noticeable tattoos on my arms that are just long enough that a short sleeve won’t cover them but a mid-length top will. One day, a part of it peaked out and one of the estheticians noticed and complimented them, and in talking to her I realized that that part of the dress code was 100% unenforced and that an old manager even had full sleeves.

      Moral of the story is that I kicked myself for spending so much time, money, and emotional effort on something that wasn’t necessary. It probably seems silly to people who don’t have tattoos, but having to cover them up really stings! It might help to check with a co-worker you trust?

  113. Shannon*

    In talking about vacation/sick days. Does anyone use sick days for “mental health days”? Do you plan them in advance – like, you know a project/family thing/etc. is wrapping up next week and you’re going to need a mental health day? As a manager, I wouldn’t mind if my team used sick days for mental health, and I personally believe in it. I wonder how other managers or employers feel about this…

    1. The Alias Gloria Is Living Under, A.A., B.S.*

      I took Monday as a planned PTO day. I called it a preemptive mental health day. I don’t get sick days, just PTO, it’s one large pool. When I did get sick days I figured well, I am sick. Sick of my job. :)

    2. CM*

      No… but if I knew my manager was cool with this, I would do it in a heartbeat, and would appreciate it so much. I tend to just be less productive at work (not on purpose) for a couple of days after going through an intense period.

    3. Wendy Darling*

      My previous manager would literally put “Mental Health Day” on her calendar. Our employer didn’t differentiate sick days and vacation days — we just had PTO generally.

      Best practice was not to take a mental health day if it was going to leave people in the lurch unless you were genuinely nonfunctional for mental health reasons, but it was totally encouraged to take a mental health day to decompress after an onerous project. I also totally took mental health days when my “illness” was “when I think about going to work today I burst into tears” and would just say I wasn’t feeling well.

    5. Liana*

      I just took one on Wednesday! I tend to plan mine out in advance. It was glorious – I got a massage, walked around the nearby park, and generally enjoyed the beautiful weather. I didn’t tell everyone that’s what it was for, but some of my coworkers knew and one of the doctors I work for also knew, and they were all fine with it. In fact, the doctor even texted me that morning to tell me to “have a restorative day off :)”

    6. anon for reasons*

      I don’t typically get sick very often, so I have used sick days for mental health days – maybe two a year, at the absolute most three – and only when I’ve got most of my work completed, no one will be left in the lurch, etc… We have a separate vacation and sick days at my work.

    7. Rebecca in Dallas*

      I do, but I plan them out in advance. I’ve never just woken up and decided I wasn’t going into work that day unless I was actually physically ill.

    8. MsMaryMary*

      Sort of. That no-holiday stretch between New Year’s and Memorial Day always gets to me, so I purposely scheduled a PTO on a couple of Fridays to give myself a short week and a long weekend. Those days are basically mental health days, but I didn’t call them that.

    9. Manders*

      I really ought to start planning mine out more than I do. I usually wait until I’m at my limit and leave partway through the day when I’m already in the middle of a panic attack, which is not ideal.

    10. Rebecca*

      I do, especially now since the company changed our PTO and vacation to use it or lose it, then said we really needed to be sick to take our 5 days PTO. We used to have 7 days PTO, and we were paid 1 week’s pay in December if we didn’t use any of it, or if we had used some, half of what was left. I consider stress from overwork as a legitimate use of PTO.

  114. 1stTimeSupervisor*

    Hi I just started a new role this week where I will be supervising staff. I interestingly came into the organization at an interesting time, one of my direct reports is transitioning out of the role so we are going to be hiring her replacement as soon as possible.

    As a first time supervisor, I need some advice on easing into this position: For one, it is only my second full time job outside of college and grad school and in my first job i was there for less than 2 years.

    The remaining direct report that I have has been in his role for 2 years, I believe has 2o years work experience and appears to be much older than I am. I will begin officially supervising him within the next week or so (the program director will begin backing off and handing me the reins). Does anyone have any tips on how to gel into the role of supervisor, how to hire efficiently, etc.

    Note: I purchased and will begin reading Alison’s “Managing to Change the World” book, but any other top-of the head advice you all have will be helpful!

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Congrats on your new role!

      I think one of the best things you can do as a new manager is just get to know your employee. What does he like and dislike about his job, what are his big goals/strengths/areas for growth, what is he an expert in? In a previous position, we actually had a “working styles” worksheet for managers and their direct reports to use to talk about how they prefer to work and interact. That had questions about things like: when are you most productive, how do you like to be recognized, what do you do when you’re stressed? Those conversations were SO helpful, both as an employee and as a manager so we could start our professional relationship off right.

      For hiring efficiently, the best tip I can give you is to have a really clear idea of the skills the person needs to be successful, and what are nice to haves. Both of those things might look very different in different candidates, but you want to know what’s nonnegotiable or once you meet the candidates you’re kind of out adrift.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      My favorite question is to ask them what they need to do their jobs that they do not have. If they have everything, then ask about recurring problems. Do they have recurring issues that could be resolved? If yes, what are those issues?

      You might want to check out Alison’s interview guide, but read it from the perspective of the interviewer.

  115. FMLA Q?*

    Are any of you knowledgable about FMLA? Is there a specific type of care you need to be providing to qualify? I was told that if a qualified family member is in the hospital, then it isn’t covered because you’re not the one providing care. Is this true? I missed some important information from a doctor because my family member was on pain medication and didn’t understand what he was being told, and I was told I had to be at work. He will be hospitalized again soon and I want to make sure I can be there with no potential repercussions. This just doesn’t seem right to me.

    1. LCL*

      Not particularly knowledgable, but I know who to call. You were told wrong information. Sounds like intermittent FMLA. I’m sure if you do a google search you will find it explained somewhere.

      1. FMLA Q?*

        That’s what I thought, thank you for your answer. The whole situation was approved for intermittent FMLA but when they turn around and tell me my absences aren’t covered because of things like that it seems like there was no point requesting it. The next hospitalization will be in a city a hundred miles away and I don’t want them telling me that being there for an extended time won’t qualify as sick leave (any FMLA absences do under our policy) or be protected by FMLA. This has been so frustrating.

    2. Liana*

      That’s not correct. I’m by no means an expert, but I’ve been working in healthcare for awhile now and at my previous job, I was responsible for helping patients figure out and apply for FMLA, so I know a decent amount. If you’re applying for FMLA as a caregiver, you can say that you’re needed for a variety of reasons – driving him to and from the hospital, providing emotional support, etc. Who did you hear this information from?

      1. FMLA Q?*

        Our HR director. My boss has not questioned any of my absences. My SO has anxiety in addition to this problem, and has told me many times he can only relax while I’m there. He really only sleeps when I’m in the room with him. I’m there with him as much as I can be, but I have a limited amount of vacation time to use. Any FMLA absence is covered by sick leave under our policy and I have hundreds of hours of it (I’ve been here for a very long time), and I can’t afford to burn through my vacation time and start taking the time off without pay.

        1. LCL*

          Aw, FFS. The restrictions on FMLA are for the amount of time, and who qualifies. (Basically, parent, spouse, child, with a couple of interesting exceptions.) See if you can find some on line information from the government and print it and show the HR person. It doesn’t matter what you are using it for, I was using intermittent to do shopping and housecleaning for my relative.

        2. PeachTea*

          Here’s the rub. FMLA does not guarantee paid leave. From what you’ve written, it doesn’t seem like they are denying you from taking the time, they are just denying that you can use your accrued sick time to do it. It 100% sucks, but it’s also quite legal.

          If they are denying that you can take the time at all, that’s different. However, just not letting you use sick time is something that is up to their discretion.

          1. Zahra*

            However, I think they cannot treat benefits any different during FMLA than not. It’s a weird disconnect when continuous FMLA can be used with paid leave, but intermittent cannot.

          2. FMLA Q?*

            They aren’t denying that I can take the time, they are saying it’s not covered under FMLA and I think it is. I found a government website confirming emotional support is covered. It’s an internal policy saying sick leave can be used for any FMLA absences, including care for a qualified family member. I realize they could change the policy if they wanted to, but I don’t think they would. Our HR director has always been quite rude to me, telling me to my face that he thinks I’m overpaid and too young to hold the position I do. This feels kind of personal. A coworker is also taking care of a spouse under similar circumstances and he hasn’t been told anything like this.

            1. PeachTea*

              In this case, it sounds like it’s time to get a lawyer involved or possibly the EEOC.

              1. FMLA Q?*

                I’m going to print the info I found that confirms it’s covered and see what he says. I have a great relationship with our CEO, so as much as I hate it when I can’t resolve things directly, that’s where I’m going if we can’t reach an agreement. That should take care of it but if not I’ll explore my other options. Everyone here is so helpful, I really appreciate all the advice from everyone!

  116. LL*

    Does anyone actually believe the excuse that an email got sent to the Junk folder? It happened to me and it feels like such a dumb explanation, as though a dog literally ate my homework.

    1. Kristine*

      It really does happen sometimes. I just found out this morning that an email I was waiting on for a week had been sent to me on time but somehow ended up in the Clutter folder.

        1. LCL*

          I renamed my clutter folder to low priority, because Microsoft isn’t the boss of me. Can’t figure out how to change the parameters, so maybe they really are in charge…
          I would totally believe it if someone told me an email I had sent went to their junk folder. I check the junk folder when I am looking for things.

          1. LL*

            I have Windows 10 and disabled it by right-clicking the folder in Outlook, opening “Manage Clutter,” and un-checking the “Separate items identified as clutter” box. Now there is just a passive-aggressive note letting me know how much time Clutter would have saved me over the past week.

      2. Rebecca*

        I disabled that stupid Clutter folder, and sent a nastygram to Microsoft when they asked for input about it. Oh, and as a bonus, emails started disappearing and I didn’t know why, until someone mentioned the Clutter folder. Guess where the email from Microsoft announcing it in the first place? You guessed it. Clutter. Talk about a circular reference.

        So, yes, it really happens, along with the junk mail thing. At least 2 or 3x per week, an email from someone I’ve corresponded with at work for a very long time ends up in junk mail. Who knows why. I always keep an eye on that folder for just this reason.

      3. Forget T-Bone Steal, Let's Eat T-Rex Steak*

        Clutter is the worst. Literally the only things that it filtered (before I disabled) were spam and emails from my boss’ boss. I guess it was nice that it caught the spammy ones, but isn’t that what the Junk folder is for?

    2. The Bread Burglar*

      Depends who the excuse is from/context. If its someone I have never emailed before and its from my personal email address… MAYBE. But if I have emailed them before, or its via my work email address…. Nope not at all.

      1. Research Assistant*

        I actually had this happen to me last year with emails from my boss. I have several Gmail accounts that redirect to one inbox. My “professional” email address automatically forwards everything to my main inbox. However, anything that goes into the spam folder in the secondary address doesn’t show up in the spam folder for the main address. Out of the blue Gmail decided that email from my boss was spam, and so I missed several messages from her. She’s normally very uncommunicative, so I just assumed she wasn’t replying when I would write to her. She thought I was ignoring her. (Why??? I’d always respond to her emails quickly before this.) Eventually we figured out the problem, but I promise it really does happen.

      1. Dynamic Beige*

        Me too. I just switched to using Outlook (ugh) and there’s been a few that have wound up in there. One client, if I replied to any of her e-mails, it was fine. If I sent a new e-mail, it always went into Junk/Spam, even though she said she had whitelisted my address.

    4. GOG11*

      I’ve had a couple of emails that shouldn’t have go to spam/junk folder. It doesn’t happen very often, but it does happen sometimes.

    5. Nanc*

      We’ve all been there! I actually have a task reminder in my Outlook that pops up at 8:15 a.m. saying “Review Junk Folder.” I do get a ton of junk mail but once I see something that is wrongly flagged, I can just white list the sender so it doesn’t happen again.

    6. Cristina in England*

      This has even happened to me with my own parents, whom I email every single day, so their email should “know” me by now. It is so common though that it is an easy and believable excuse if you just forgot to reply.

    7. MsMaryMary*

      Our IT keeps messing around with our security settings (because people keep opening dubious attachments) and we have a terrible time with important messages going to junk mail. Clients I have emailed repeatedly will magically no longer appear in my inbox. One of my coworkers had all her internal emails going to junk for a while.

      To make matters worse, we currently have a junk mail folder, a clutter folder, and messages can be “quarantined” if they are suspicious. In effect that’s three junk mail folders, and I’m only notified if I have quarantined messages once a day. At 1am.

      1. MsMaryMary*

        And I just found an email FROM MYSELF in my junk mail (I responded to an email on a vendor’s secure site and ended up cc-ed on my own response).

    9. S0phieChotek*

      also depends on who uses it; it is someone who is always disorganized or lazy or not pulling their weight, I’d be less likely to believe them, whereas if it is someone that responds promptly, etc. I would assume it really is true. But it happens enough to me, I would believe it could happen.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      Not only do they go into spam, but sometimes they just disappear. My aunt and I used to email twice a day. I called her to check on her a couple times because her email was MIA. This was a couple of emails over a three year period, but we were emailing twice a day during that time.

      I have also had emails take three days to get here, thanks Yahoo. (Note to self, get a new email address asap.)

      If the person is otherwise thorough/attentive/etc I do believe them when they say it went to the spam folder. And I believe them when they say it’s missing entirely.

  117. Lady Kelvin*

    My husband works in a field in which there is a significant gender imbalance and generally lots of trouble with sexism, mysogny, etc. Thankfully it does not seem to be much of a problem. In his office as all the technical staff tend to be young and more accepting of women in their field. Not to say that older people aren’t accepting, but it tends to be a field of old white men and many don’t think anyone but white men should be doing it. Anyways, Marsha works closely with a colleague, Sam, who tends to mansplain everything she says, although he does not appear to do so maliciously. If Marsha answers a question, Sam will immediately repeat her answer verbatim. While Sam does this with most people, it looks particularly bad because they work very closely together and there is the male vs female scientist dynamic. My husband noticed Sam doing this to Marsha when they were taking questions after a joint presentation to the group and after Sam repeated Marsha’s answer verbatim, Lord Kelvin said, “that’s what she said,” joking of course but pointing out that Marsha had just given the answer in full. Afterwards, Marsha came up to my husband and thanked him for noticing that this was happening, so even she is annoyed with it and is not sure what to do about it. My husband was upset/concerned enough by what is at minimum the appearance of Sam’s lack of respect for Marsha that he came home and asked me what he could do to help, he believes that this behavoir is unconscious on the part of Sam, who does come from a different country with very different cultural norms concerning the treatment of women. I told him that Marsha needs to call Sam out on his behavior whenever it happens. My husband would like to speak to Sam about his behavior and how it is inappropriate. My husband is concerned that if he doesn’t say something to Sam, Sam may end up in a management position and be subject to discrimination complaints for behaviors these behaviors. Basically, my husband wants to pyllSam aside and say something like, “I don’t know if you realize you are doing x,y, and z to Marsha, but it’s not acceptable in the workplace, so make sure if you add to the conversation you are not just repeating what she says, etc.” Can anyone offer some suggestions for the wording or if my husband should even bother doing this? For what it is worth, all three are at the same level and it might be better to hear coming from another guy rather than from the female manager (who is not really a great manager and would pro ably address such a complaint with a general email to the group).

    1. fposte*

      I think that’s a reasonable thing for LK to do. I would suggest picking a couple of specific things–the repeating what she said looks like an excellent one–that he does to women and not to men. And I think your husband’s pretty much got the approach–you don’t realize you’re doing this, but it discourages good scientists, which isn’t good for the lab, and it could suggest a pattern that would get the org in trouble.

    2. The Bread Burglar*

      Marsha needs to have a talk with Sam about it. Otherwise it might look like Marsha needs your husband to stand up for her when she should be addressing it directly.

      But if he wants to Lord Kelvin could speak to Sam directly and just tell him something like “I’ve noticed you often repeat things Marsha says when she makes statements or answers questions. I’m not sure if you are aware of this but it can be viewed as sexist and really isn’t a helpful thing to do. Marsha is incredibly knowledgeable and doesn’t need you to repeat her. It really isn’t adding anything to the discussion at all and in fact can make you both look bad.”

      I would also advise that he continues to point out when Sam is repeating stuff by saying “she just said that.” Hopefully this will help drive home to him that he isn’t adding anything by repeating it as everyone can already hear her and will discourage this behaviour.

      1. fposte*

        I think that in front of Sam, it’s Marsha’s move to make. But I think it’s great for colleagues at other times to say “What you’re doing isn’t cool, and it’s bad for us all” even if they’re not the ones it’s directed at.

    3. Dawn*

      That’s AWESOME of your husband! I think that wording is just fine- he’s just pointing it out and leaving the other guy to figure out how to proceed.

    4. Zahra*

      I think your husband can’t tell Sam what is or is not appropriate in the workplace, especially if Sam has more experience.* I also think that Marsha cannot wage this battle alone: Lord Kelvin, as sad and infuriating as it is, is more likely to be heard than she is. What Lord Kelvin could do is reinforce the fact that Marsha has already answered the question. “That’s what she said.”; “Thanks, I got it the first time.”; “Hey, I noticed that you often repeat what Marsha just said, what gives?”

      *Exception: Lord Kelvin and Sam have a good relationship, Sam is open to/has asked for guidance on differing cultural norms, Sam is relatively new to the (I assume) US workforce.

      1. CM*

        Agreed! I don’t think your husband is in a position to have a serious talk with Sam, but he would be a great ally to Marsha if every time this happened, he called it out. He could also make an effort to give Marsha credit when it’s due — for example, “I agree with Marsha’s proposal that we should move forward with plan X, and here’s how I think we should do it…” Or after Sam repeats something Marsha just said, turn to Marsha and say, “Yes, I believe that’s what Marsha was just saying; Marsha, can you explain how we would do that?”

      2. Not So NewReader*

        I love these one liners. Sometimes you can cover something with one sentence and there is no need to have that bigger talk. As a short term strategy maybe your husband could use these single sentences each time he sees the behavior. If he does not see improvement, then he could consider having a chat with his coworker.

    5. Hillary*

      I’m with fposte – I think this is something Lord Kelvin can certainly do. Sometimes a peer can pull someone aside for just that kind of coaching, particularly in a technical environment where there are people with different cultural contexts. Lord Kelvin will know how direct he can be with Sam (probably very). It’s a gentler way to get kicked in the teeth by the world than some of the other options.

      I’d focus on specific situations and take the time to explain why they could be issues in the future.

    6. Ultraviolet*

      I’ve spent grad school in the Marsha role, so my opinion is very biased.

      It sounds like Marsha appreciated Lord K saying something to Sam in the moment, so I don’t think he needs to avoid calling Sam out for fear of looking like Marsha’s defender. Bear in mind he doesn’t have to do it every time to make an impact. I’m just picturing once or twice a month here. He could also point it out when Sam’s doing it to someone other than Marsha.

      Maybe Lord K could talk to Marsha about it and ask how she’d feel about him calling Sam out more often? He could also mention that he thinks it would be completely reasonable for her to call him out herself–sometimes it’s hard for the Marsha to tell whether this will come across as oversensitive or too aggressive.

      If Lord K wants to help Sam out, I think it’d actually work better to tell him that it’s bad when he does this to anyone, and not emphasize the extra badness of doing it to Marsha. Point out that it comes across as disrespectful and probably rubs people the wrong way. If it happens that after this conversation, Sam stops doing this thing to men but continues to do it to Marsha, then Lord K can bring that up as a problem. I’m a little iffy on whether talking to Sam is more likely to result in Sam changing his behavior or just changing his opinion of Lord K, but I don’t think it’s out of line to try.

  118. Maxine of Arc*

    There’s a good chance I’ll be offered a new position soon, and I’m eager to accept. I also have a two-week trip planned for May (from the 8th until the 21st) that cannot be moved. Obviously, if and when I do get an offer, I plan to give two weeks’ (ten working days’) notice at my current position—but depending on when the offer comes, the notice period will either be split before and after my vacation, or will come immediately after it. (As a side note, the person two levels above me—was my manager’s manager before my manager was let go and not (yet) replaced—at the current job already isn’t particularly happy about my taking this vacation; it’s during one of our busier times, though not the busiest, and I don’t have 10 full days PTO accrued yet for the year. In a perfect world, I wouldn’t have requested two full weeks at a time, much less in this part of the year, but it’s just how things turned out when the availability of my family and friends [and my ability to get Hamilton tickets] got factored in. For the record, my team lead and the department’s ops manager are both fine with my taking the trip.)

    What’s the most graceful way to handle this? If an offer comes next week, I’ll give notice before I leave town (so it’ll be clear as soon as possible that any days off beyond what I’ve accrued should be unpaid, rather than compensated for by pushing my vacation time into the negative). But if I get an offer during my vacation (at least, during the week of it when I’ll have regular internet access), should I let my current job know before I get back? It seems tacky to come back from a two-week vacation and immediately give notice, but if there’s a better way for me to handle the situation, I’m not sure what it is.

    Any advice for how to do this as gracefully as possible?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Well first of all, any and all decisions should hinge on your ability to see Hamilton. It’s worth it.

      If the notice comes in while you’re on leave – tell them then so they can start moving on trying to fill your position.

      Good luck, and don’t blow your shot!

  119. HDL*

    This is a comment not a question, but I just needed to share! I am in my second year of a full-time position in academia, which I landed thanks to lucky timing, networking, and the advice on this site. I have already moved into a supervisory position and I am, for the first time, on a hiring committee for another full-time teaching position outside of my division. This position, which was posted for only about two weeks, received upwards of 60 applications (and I’ve heard this is a lower number than usual). And many of them (I might even say the majority) are terrible. I know Alison is the advice-giver here, but I’ve learned a bit about how the hiring process works specifically for academic institutions and as a public service announcement, I’d like to mention a few pointers:
    If the job ad asks for skills with specific types of software, you must mention that you have experience with that type of software or it is assumed that you have no experience.
    If the job ad asks for specific educational degrees and types of coursework, you must list your degrees, where they came from, and the date you graduated. An unofficial transcript would also be useful. You may be able to get an offer without submitting transcripts, but you can’t be officially hired until the HR office has official transcripts confirming your degree(s).
    If the position you are applying for is primarily devoted to teaching rather than research, you should focus on describing your teaching experience and limit your publication list to “selected publications” or a brief description of your “main research interests.” We don’t need a copy of your dissertation.
    If the job ad requests a teaching statement, do some research to find out what you should include. Spend time thinking about it and use real examples of things you do when you teach and why those things are helpful for students. Do not begin a teaching statement with sentences that include typos and nonsensical grammar.

    Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.

  120. Sparkly Librarian*

    In the past week or so I’ve twice left work midday without any prior preparation, because I was suddenly ill. [Wrote and deleted detailed narration of what happened, how I notified my boss, what his response was. 1st: diarrhea. 2nd: menstrual cramps bad enough that I thought I was going to puke or pass out and had to keep from crying. I wasn’t specific about any reason other than “I really don’t feel well and need to go home.”]

    At my old job, this would have been unfortunate and I would’ve been busy the next day catching up, but the type of work we did wouldn’t have been materially affected and my coworkers wouldn’t have minded. This job is different, in that we have a limited number of staff running programs and minding desks, and if someone calls out or has to leave unexpectedly it falls to the rest of us to carry out their duties. Essentially, I screwed up the whole afternoon (twice) for the other 4 people who work at my location and with whom I work closely every day. I feel really bad about that. I worry that they think I’m slacking off, because I didn’t have anything concrete like a broken arm and I didn’t discuss the gory details.

    I did apologize to my boss, the scheduling staffer, and my officemate for leaving them in the lurch, but they’ve been kind of cold since the second incident. I didn’t feel this way when I (and two other staff) were all taking weekly PT appointments in the same month late last year. These weren’t predictable absences (which is part of the problem) and although I’m keeping track of symptoms as part of an ongoing discussion with my doctor about the possibility of fibroids, etc., visiting the doctor would not magically resolve the issue. Is there anything I can do to restore my credibility?

    1. Sadsack*

      I wouldn’t say anything else about it. Just try to avoid it happening again anytime soon, if you can. You don’t have to apologize more than once, or at least you shouldn’t be expected to for something that couldnt be helped and that you have already sincerely apologized for. Let it go, they will get over it, if in fact they are still bothered by it.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      tell your boss you’re dealing with a chronic health condition but are having trouble getting it properly diagnosed, but are trying to minimize the disruption to the team and will do your best to make sure it doesn’t happen anymore.

    3. fposte*

      I think you mostly just give them time; they shouldn’t be sulking, but whether you had a reason or not, they still had to do the work at the last minute, which is no fun. But I also think there’s a happy medium between not discussing the gory details and giving your co-workers enough info to know that you really aren’t well. “Sorry, there’s a bad gyno thing we haven’t gotten to the bottom of yet.”

      Hope you feel better soon!

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I do agree that giving them a little more to hang their hat on might help. I was thinking of, “I have a random recurring problem. But I am working with a doctor to resolve it as quickly as possible.”

    4. Rebecca in Dallas*

      Don’t even worry about it. Things happen! I had to leave work early a couple of times due to migraines that came on without warning and at least one of those times I really put my boss in a bad position. But I couldn’t help it and she was annoyed that day but she got over it.

    5. Ultraviolet*

      If this is at all likely to happen again, I think you might need to tell your boss that you’re dealing with a health issue that is occasionally making you debilitatingly ill, and suggest to them some ways to mitigate the impact it’ll have on your team until it’s sorted out. I know that really sucks, but I have the impression from your description of that impact that it’ll seem pretty naive/tone-deaf and thoughtless not to have such a conversation.

      That conversation will probably naturally lead to you talking to your coworkers about this. (Like, “I have an ongoing health issue that sometimes results in me getting violently ill very suddenly and needing to leave, like last week. So I have written up these notes that will always be on my desk in case you have a client question about X…” or whatever’s appropriate.)

  121. Liana*

    So … I bit the bullet and sent in an application to teach English abroad in Thailand. It’s something I’ve wanted to do for awhile now, but I had always held off for a variety of excuses – I had just bought a car, I’m still getting caught up on my student loans, I want to stay at my job a bit longer so I don’t look like a job hopper, etc. Well, my car is paid off, my loans are in great shape, and as for the job … I’ve been here for 15 months and I just don’t think it’s for me. It’s not a bad job by any means, but I can’t see myself doing it any longer than 2 years. So I have a Skype interview in May, and we’ll see how it goes! I alternate between being terrified and being SO EXCITED and wanting to move RIGHT THIS SECOND. I still worry that people will judge my resume for having a relatively short stint at a job, but I have a pretty solid work history besides that, so I think I can spin this into a positive. I’ve never had a Skype interview before, so if anyone has any tips I’d be grateful!

    1. anon for reasons*

      Congrats! I think for a Skype interview, make sure you’re in a quiet environment with no distractions. Unplug your phone, cats or dogs locked in a different room, etc… Also Skype over wireless can be sketchy, so I would plug your computer into a router if at all possible. Make sure you dress professionally, too (at least from the waist up).

      As an aside, the nice thing about Skype interviews is that you can keep notes handy to quickly glance at if you feel the need to. Just remember eye contact is still important!

      1. fposte*

        Remember eye contact is *camera* contact, though–locking eyes with the images of people you see on the screen isn’t eye contact at the other end. (The famous tip is to put googly eyes on either side of the camera.)

        Don’t get too comfortable just because you’re at home–sit like you’re at an interview.

    2. EEK! The Manager*

      I interview folks over Skype and Google Hangout all the time and the worst thing about it is technical difficulties. I would recommend re-starting your computer before your interview and make sure you have minimal applications open. Anything that refreshes automatically, like email, or uses lots of data, like Spotify, should be closed.

      Also, I would dress professional from head to toe, not just from the waist up! You never know if they will ask you to demonstrate something where you would need to stand up. Good luck!

  122. ActualName*

    Update on the girl scout thing. The talk I had for reasonable accommodations seemed to go okay. They never sent the paper work over to my house, and even if they had the doctor they want to hear from was unavailable until recently (being out of the country and then busy with other patients) so I missed the deadline that they had given me in this letter, which, again, I didn’t see until recently when I asked for it to be sent electronically.

    Looking over it, the questions seem very invasive. I mean of course I accepted some level of invasiveness… And it asks for my “level of impairment” which varies wildly, especally without the help of the service dog. I’m worried that they will either find me too disabled to give accommodation to, and will rescind my employment, or that they will find me not disabled enough for the accommodation.

    It’s all very stressful and the further into this process I’ve gone the less and less communicative and empathetic my employer has been.

    1. JuniorDev*

      That sounds really stressful! I don’t have any advice but I hope things work out for you.

      1. ActualName*

        Thank you for your support!

        It is really stressful, and I was dealing with this in addition to finals, AND my housing breaking the law.

    2. Judy*

      To be the devil’s advocate, in my experience, camp staff positions are some form of care giving for young kids, unless you’re in the dining hall. You’ve got to have the ratios to properly care for the kids. Kids that may or may not have allergies or phobias to dogs. I’d certainly be concerned about a service dog that isn’t fully trained being around a bunch of kids.

      I’m not 100% convinced that a service dog is a reasonable accommodation at a camp facility.

      1. ActualName*

        This isn’t really unhelpful.

        Since my service dog doesn’t do alerts or similar tasks / work I really just need her boarded so that I can visit her during my breaks, the weekends, and during my flares ups to have her preform her tasks / work. And even if I did need her with me it wouldn’t be difficult to put me with a group of girls who aren’t allergic to dogs. I’ll be working with an older (late middle to highschool) age group anyway so I expect to have clear communication with them about what is and is not appropriate to do to or around my dog.

        And besides, the dog not being reasonable would really put me in a lurch. I have no idea what I’d do then, as I don’t know how else they could accommodate my disability (since the service dog in combination with medication was the only work around I’d found to work). Am I allowed to back out at this stage? I had signed up for this months ago and hadn’t been told that housing the service dog would be an issue at all. I turned down other internship and opportunities because I really wanted to work here.

        And if even if I could work with other accomidationis I would have to board my service dog at a kennel that would coast more half or more of my salary. And boarding a dog at the wrong day care or kennel could result in an incident (such as another dog attacking my service dog) that means my service dog can’t work anymore do to her own mental or physical health.

        I’m tired of hearing from everyone around me that people are allergic or afraid of dogs. I know. Trust me, I know. I’ve had people across a room start screaming and flailing when I entered, Branka at a perfect heel beside me, because they were afraid. And, you know, that does wonders for my panic disorder. / sarcasm. I’ve been harassed for using the medical equipment I need by people who are allergic but won’t take any steps to allow us to co-exist, such as working out a system where we avoid each other to the best of our abilities. No, they felt entitled to the public space (I’m thinking specifically of a common room in my dorm room) and wanted to bare me from it completely when I pay my rent and live there too.

        I know it might not be reasonable, that’s what the paper works about. But if they say I don’t need her, then what? If they say I’m too disabled to work there, then what?

      2. LizB*

        Yeah, I’ve attended and worked at camps where there were dogs present, but it was always just a pet dog that belonged to the camp director or someone else who lived on the property. This meant that a) the dog could be played with/petted/cuddled by any interested campers, and b) no campers were ever required to be in close proximity to the dog. With a service dog for a counselor, that’s a very different situation. You have to teach ALL the campers the “vest on = working dog = no petting” rule (which they need to learn sometime in life, but I can imagine the first few days of each session being stressful as everyone adjusts). You also have to screen all campers for dog allergies or fears so you know who can be assigned to that counselor’s cabin; those questions probably weren’t on anyone’s registration paperwork, so at this point in the year you now have to check back with dozens of families for extra info, and it adds an extra layer of complexity to the always-difficult camper placement vs. staff scheduling procedures. Plus, liability! Camp already has a ton of liability, but animals are a whole ‘nother can of worms, particularly working animals that are still in training for their roles.

        I don’t know. I’m sure it’s been done somewhere in the past, but based on my experience it sounds like a pretty difficult accommodation for a camp to pull off. I hope they can work something out, though.

        1. ActualName*

          Please see me responce to Judy.

          I do not need the service dog with me while I work, only while I am on break.

          1. LizB*

            Sorry, I didn’t know that. I’ve missed discussions from previous threads, and was going off the assumption that you’d need her all the time — my mistake.

            From a camp-admin perspective, that does make having the dog seem more doable, so I now have extra hope this will all work out. And I’m sorry that you’ve had bad experiences with people being jerks about accommodations — the people in your dorm sound really out of line. As for the super invasive questionnaire, I think that’s something that can happen when working with kids, whether or not there’s a disability involved; when you’re responsible for the safety of other people, even teens who can likely handle some things themselves, employers want to be really, totally, 100% sure you have the ability to fulfill your job duties, and put you under a LOT of scrutiny. Some of the most grueling interviews I’ve ever had have been for camp counselor positions. As stressful as all this red tape is, it’s actually kind of a good sign that your employers are trying to get a detailed picture of what you need and what obstacles you might face — it means they’re taking your needs and those of your campers very seriously. I hope everything turns out well!

  123. anon for reasons*

    I have this friend and I’m not really sure if I can do anything to convince her she’s making a bad decision. Basically, she was let go from this bank last year. After several weeks/months of unemployment (sending out resumes, etc..) she was re-hired by the same bank. But for the past few weeks she’s repeatedly said that she hates the place because there’s a lot of change and uncertainty and lay offs are still happening. Which is understandable, but now she’s talking about quitting without having anything lined up.

    She says that’s she sent out a few resumes and has an outstanding application at a consulting company, and that she has also talked to a [different] consulting company about a temp job (I think with the hopes that she would get in the door permanently). Her plan C is to use the money she’s saved to go travelling… which I pointed out was not a good idea, as that burns through money fast, but she said she’s seen other people do it.

    She is in a different country (think Europe) so maybe my concern is unfounded… but I would hate for her to quit and then be left unemployed for several months. I’ve worked in toxic jobs in the past and they were terrible, so I do understand her desire to be free… but at the same time, it just seems like a plain all around bad idea. I feel like she might not understand just how hard it is to find jobs, but maybe that’s my own struggle with unemployment talking.

    1. The Bread Burglar*

      If she already did several weeks/months of unemployment before going back to the Bank then she should know what unemployment is like.

      She should definitely line something up before quitting. I’d be curious how this will look on her CV as well as it should show the Bank name, the date she restarted to present, then below that the dates before she was let go last year. It might look suspicious if she has start and end dates twice with no new job to replace it especially if she ends up with a lengthy unemployment.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

      I am thinking from the angle of preserving the friendship first. I say let it go. The most you can do is say, “when you get back from your travels, do you have a plan if you do not find a job immediately?”

      Here is a thought to ponder: People play their cards differently. I could never, ever do what your friend is proposing. It would not go well for me, at all. I would take the trip and be jobless beyond the life expectancy of my savings. Other people, however, seem to do this and make out okay. I have no clue why. I can only assume that part of the reason is that I am not a very good risk taker and I could improve at finding hidden opportunities. But that is me. If you look at your own setting you might be able to see differences in yourself and your friend that could be enough so she would be okay doing this.

      So my thinking is, take one more shot at making sure she thinks she will be okay, then let it go.

  124. ActualName*

    Good new is that I finished filling out this very intensive scholarship application. It had ten separate parts to it, including asking for a resume, and is geographically isolated to my city, so I hope I get it.

    Finals are finally over and I’m at home now, recovering.

  125. WorkingFromCafeInCA*

    Any tips on how to help kick off a new mentoring relationship, when I’m not the person’s manager and we work in different time zones?

    My small company is starting a formal mentorship program, and they’ve asked me if I want to be a mentor! I’m nervous but excited. We just hired a few new people (we only hire once every year or two), and they’re going to give the newbies the option to join if they want. My mentee will have just finished her undergraduate degree.

    I read AAM’s link on how to be a good mentor (https://www.askamanager.org/2008/07/how-to-mentor-someone.html), but I won’t have any managerial influence on her. She will have her own manager (who happens to be my own manager). I haven’t met her yet, and I know it will take time for both of us to trust someone, but does anyone have tips on how to help this get rolling?

    (Note: We are a distributed team, so she’ll be in a different time zone than me, and we’ll probably see each other for work events once a month or so).

    1. MsMaryMary*

      I really like a standing touchbase (weekly? Biweekly) as both a mentor and mentee. As the mentee, it’s helpful for me to have dedicated time to go to my mentor with a problem, or ask for an explanation or “big picture” perspective on something. As a mentor, it’s helps to have the time blocked off so mentoring doesn’t get lost in the rest of my to-do list. I think ad-hoc discussions are great too, but especially if you’re not in the same location scheduling something would be helpful.

      If your mentee doesn’t have questions right off the bat, think about what you would have wanted to know early in your career, or what skills or concepts less experienced people in your industry seem to struggle with.

      Good luck! And thanks for volunteering to be a mentor, I think it’s so important.

  126. Doriana Gray*

    No question this week. I just came by to say how much I love the people I work with. We had a two hour division-wide lunch today where we broke into teams and played Family Feud. The answers people came up with were hilarious. One of the feud prompts was, “Name some things that are buried.”One of my teammates answered, “Dreams” in the most somber tone and I died. Like, what happened to you in life that that’s the first thing you think of?! LOL. And then the game got dirty midway through, and my uber-competitive colleagues (and the Division’s Sr. VP) started cheating, and it was a loud, rowdy mess. I loved it (even though my team came in second because we were robbed).

    Monday night, one of our vendors is taking us to a baseball game in one of the suites, so that should be equally loud and rowdy. I hope it doesn’t rain because if it does, I may have to skip the festivities, and the last time I went with these guys (two years ago, before I was officially out of my training program and, thus, wasn’t one of their employees), I had a blast – and I don’t even like sports.

    1. overeducated*

      Haha, I would totally answer something like “dreams.” Feeling a bit melodramatic about the direction my career is taking!

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Aww :( I’ve been there, and it sucks.

        Sending you positive vibes ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    2. Catherine from Canada*

      Good one!
      If anyone here knows the CBC radio show “The Debaters” – in a recent episode, one of the questions was, “In Ottawa, half the workers are under __?__”
      One of the debaters/comedians answered, in a very deep dry tone, “Unappreciated. And the other half are under-paid.”

    3. Audiophile*

      I’ve had that feeling for a while. I would probably say “dreams” too. My dreams have changed over the last few years, those some are still a work in progress and important to me.

  127. Dawn*

    Hopefully not too late for this:

    How do I find a recruiter for my company to work with for a specialized position (Masters or Ph.D. in Social Policy, specifically housing)? All my prelim Google searching is only turning up resources for job seekers, not for employers.

    1. Policy degree*

      I’m late on reading this thread, and disappointed that you didn’t get an answer. I have a policy degree (masters) and any time that I get frustrated through the other channels and try to look for a recruiter, it doesn’t seem like they have any suitable jobs for me. I don’t know anyone who found a job through a recruiter either, so I figure I’m just going to have to keep networking and sending out resumes. I’m sure it’s frustrating on your end as I imagine by posting on the big sites you are going to get a lot of unsuitable applications to weed through in order to find a few candidates to interview.

  128. GOG11*

    Any tips on professional ways to tell someone to please go away I have work to do? One of my coworkers in a different building and area of work has come to both of my offices (my time is split between two) to ask questions that aren’t necessary and then hangs around for a while trying to keep talking. I’ve tried shifting back to work and not engaging and I’ve tried having my assistant call me (I IM’ed her and asked her to call me) because I thought a phone call might signal that I was getting back to work and that the conversation was over, but he just hangs around instead of leaving. I don’t feel threatened or anything, but it’s awkward and really annoying.

    2. NotASalesperson*

      “Sorry, I’d love to talk, but I need to get this done.”
      “That sounds interesting and I’d be interested in hearing more over lunch, but for now I need to get back to work.” (only say that if you actually want to hear it over lunch)
      “That’s great/glad I could help. Thanks for stopping by, but I need to get back to work.”

      And, if them stopping by is really disruptive: “If you have this kind of question in the future, can you email me? Stopping by in person is great if it’s an urgent issue, but I tend to get in the zone and it’s hard for me to get focused again if someone stops to chat. Thanks!”

    4. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Yes to what everyone else suggested, but also to solve the issue of someone hanging around after you’ve answered your phone — you cover the mouthpiece and say to the hanger-around, “This is going to be a while — I’ll talk to you later.” It’s “get out” but more politely stated.

      You can also do it before you pick up the phone, by saying, “I need to take this; I’ll see you later.”

      But no need for covertly-arranged phone calls with this guy — just say you need to get back to work.

    5. GOG11*

      Thanks, all! These are great :)

      I can’t tell if he’s lonely or romantically interested or what, but I don’t want to be watched while I work until he gives up and goes away. It’s just too weird.

      1. Audiophile*

        I will say I’ve “watched” someone do work, but this is usually preceded by me asking what they’re doing and suggesting ways to fix the problem they’re having. If they make it clear they really want me to go, I’m happy to leave. Certainly if they pick up the phone, I will leave, unless they say otherwise.

        And I’m not saying you’re doing this, but I’ve walked in and said I have a quick question, only to be told to sit down. They’re engrossed in their work, maybe throwing in a sentence or two about what they wanted. And so I continue to sit there, because “sit down” to me means a longer conversation is planned or coming. Until the person says “we’re good” I’m assuming that I need to sit there.

        It sounds like he’s coming in to start and using these questions as a lead up to a longer conversation.

        1. GOG11*

          With the positions we’re both in, there is next to no overlap (he’s not in IT or anything) and his questions haven’t ever led into anything work related. Rather, he tries to bring up personal topics, so I don’t think it’s that he’s waiting until there’s an opening to talk about or work on anything to do with our jobs. I think he’s just trying to chat.

          I’m nowhere near senior enough to tell anyone to sit down, but I will keep that in mind if I ever am as I do tend to get a bit fixated on my work at times.

  129. anon for this*

    So, I just found out my entire team went out to lunch without me. Another coworker saw them there (small town) and texted me to ask why I hadn’t joined them. They didn’t invite me. This is not the first time this has happened and it makes me feel so terrible. I thought we were close-knit and they’ve never invited me. I feel so sad. :(

    1. Pontoon Pirate*

      Aw, I’m sorry. That’s rotten. I’ve been left out before and it stings so freakin’ much, doesn’t it? Best thing we can do is keep on keepin’ on and try not to give it anymore mental energy. They don’t deserve any more of your thoughts.

    2. Doriana Gray*

      That sucks. :(

      I know you’re entitled to feel the way you do, but try not to feel terrible about something that probably has nothing to do with you.

    3. Zahra*

      That sucks and it’s rude. I’d say that if your boss was in the group and didn’t say anything to you, it’s especially rotten. Part of a team can go for lunch together. But, the whole team minus 1? Not a good thing.

    4. Bea W*

      :( There are certainly times when someone who has sent out a calendar invite for lunch inadvertently misses someone, but we always do a body check before we head out. It’s still possible they thought you had been invited and just chose not to join them when in reality the invitation never reached your inbox. Is there anyone on the team you feel okay just casually asking? “Wakeen mentioned he saw the team out having lunch on Wednesday. Did I inadvertently miss (forget about) a team lunch?”

      1. Doriana Gray*

        Something similar just happened to me. Two teams in my division were invited by one of our vendors to a baseball game, and the invite went out a couple of weeks ago, but I never got it. People kept talking about it, and I kept waiting for the invite, and it never came. So I asked the organizer what happened, and she was so embarrassed and apologized profusely saying that with all of the new people that just started, and with the number of teams who weren’t invited, she simply forgot to add me. She added me when I mentioned it and my manager said it should be no problem for me to attend Monday night, so we’ll see. (And the organizer just confirmed the vendor will have a ticket for me, so I’m excited to go booze it up with my coworkers.)

  130. Bea W*

    More move drama! I came back from vacation a week later, unpacked my things and settled in. This past Monday (10 days post move?) a woman shows up unannounced at my cubicle saying she had left “a bunch of personal stuff” in the file cabinet. She had security with her.

    WTH?!

    Yes, there was a file cabinet, that had been locked and without a key. I had to request a new key from security because the cube was vacant, and the previous occupant left none of the keys behind for either file cabinet, and had left the small one locked. Okay, this is highly annoying but it happens. That’s why there’s a process in place for requesting a new key.

    When I got the key a couple days before the move, I opened the cabinet, found the usual abandonded bunch of office supplies, but the previous occupant had also left behind an iPhone, iPad, and hot spot. This cube had been vacant at least one month prior if not longer, and everything else had been cleaned out of it. I assumed this was company property (and I still feel certain about this!), and sometimes when people leave, they shove company devices in a drawer because they don’t know what else to do with them. I notified the move coordinator about these items as soon as I found them, and let her know I was leaving them locked up in the cabinet while I would be off work for a week.

    Fast forward 1 week, I come back and unpack my things. There’s no further word on who the devices belonged to. So I did exactly what I am supposed to do, returned them to IT. These aren’t my things, and I’m not going to be liable for storing them in what is now my file cabinet that I need to use for my own things. The previous user has clearly abandoned them, and in all likelihood no longer works for the company (which is why they would have been left there).

    Then it’s Monday afternoon, and someone I have never seen, has not contacted me, and does not even bother to introduce herself, pays me a surprise visit with company security to collect the things she abandoned in the file cabinet at least a month earlier? She was not happy to hear I had returned the equipment to IT. I explained, I had only just returned it the prior workday, and if she would go straight down there, they likely still had it on site.

    She said she was told it would all be moved. The rest of the cubicle and the other file cabinet had been cleaned out, except for the locked cabinet, and I’m guessing that is because it was locked and no one could get into it, and it obviously wasn’t that important because it’s easy enough to get security to open it or order a new key.

    Well, what in the heck was I supposed to do? Hold it indefinately? Who even leaves “a bunch of personal stuff” behind for at least a month and then shows up unannounced looking for it? I didn’t even get a call from the front/security desk first! I’m certain these were company devices. I can’t imagine anyone would have left behind their personal iPhone in a desk and not retrieved it or notified someone to retrieve it in that time.

    It was just so bizarre, and a bit unsettling. In all likelihood security was with her either to open the cabinet or possibly if she was no longer an employee (and asked them very nicely), but it made me question if I had done something wrong!

    1. Student*

      She made a stupid mistake (left a cabinet locked when people were packing for her). She didn’t notice the mistake for a while.

      You noticed the mistake and did the right thing – notifying the move coordinator, then turning over the items to the appropriate company contact when that didn’t solve the problem.

      She’s angry about her mistake and taking it out on you inappropriately if she got upset over your actions. You did everything right. Don’t let her make her mistakes into your problem.

      1. GOG11*

        I agree with all of this. A few of my coworkers are moving offices in the near future and the attitude can be “well, someone will handle X, Y, and Z” and if too many people do that, things end up in no man’s land not getting done, which is in no way the next occupant’s problem. You did the right thing.

        1. Bea W*

          So true. Abandoned equipment and office supplies were the most benign finds on this move. It’s amazing what gets forgotten!

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Shrug it off. She needs to have a conversation with herself about how she is responsible for her own neglect. If that had been me, I would have been thanking you up and down for covering my stupidity by putting the devices in a safer place. And I would have apologized that I made extra work for you.

    2. NotQuippyToday*

      We had someone who did something similar – he phoned in one day to say he wasn’t coming in to the office again because he was starting university the next Monday. He left all his stuff, and about three months later his mom came in to collect it! So these people are out there, and you did the sensible thing.

  131. Guinness*

    In light of the controlling your emotions discussion last week, what are people’s thoughts on the Kelly Ripa saga? Apparently she made a dig at Michael Strahan on the air this morning. I feel like she’s taking it way too far.

  132. Regina 2*

    This is weird, but – I am compensated very well for my position. Almost double what the market rate is for this job in my city. The initial offer I received was higher than market rate, but I turned them down because I wasn’t sure of culture fit. Then they came back with an offer of $20k more and I felt like an idiot to decline, so I took it.

    Fast forward two years, and the company is dysfunctional and all my gut instincts bore out. But I’m paid a lot. And I just got a big raise, and a huge bonus.

    My problem is I just don’t feel like I deserve it. I have a lot of self-esteem issues, but setting that aside, how can the business justify spending so much on me, when similar roles in the company in our own office pay much less? (I work in the division that’s more high profile and where the sales come from, but I’m not directly responsible for sales; just closer.) I have a manager title in my role but think I get paid the same as a director level in the same functional area in my own office.

    How do I stop dwelling on this? I feel guilty and that I don’t deserve it. I’ve even been looking at jobs that pay less so I won’t have this anxiety about feeling unworthy. But! My last job was one of those that paid half, and the stress of living paycheck-to-paycheck was awful too. I want to stay in this job for as long as I can because the money is so good, but I need to figure out ways to be a better employee and convince myself I’m worth it. I know they wouldn’t just pay me if they weren’t getting results, but my argument is the pay disparity is so high between myself and others, that I should be doing way more.

    Anyone else have a similar story? Am I just crazy?

    1. Zahra*

      I think that it’s one way for your employer to keep people from leaving their position. They get paid more than anywhere else, they change their expenses (take on more debts, get a larger data plan, go to the restaurant more often, etc.) and then they feel trapped where they are.

      So, you’re worth that amount of money: otherwise, they’d find someone else. And just because you don’t feel like you’re working hard doesn’t mean that the work you do isn’t more valuable/done more efficiently than the work others do.

      You don’t want to live paycheck to paycheck: figure out what you would need to remove from your expenses to remove that stress: are there some debts that you could focus on paying off so you have more disposable income? I like You Need a Budget, but, really, any type of budget would work, as long as you check it back during the month to adjust it according to your spending and income, so it reflects an accurate picture of your current finances. You don’t want to get to the end of the month and say “Oh my gosh, I spent too much on restaurants!”. You want to be able to say, mid-month “Okay, at the rate I’m going, I’ll be over my restaurant budget before the end of the month. Time to change strategies or adjust the budget.” Also, depending on your experience, you wouldn’t go back to your previous level of compensation. It would be lower than the current level, but your experience counts for something too.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      No, you are not crazy. It’s fairly common for people to have discomfort if they privately feel they are overpaid. Sometimes that discomfort manifests with ego trips, nastiness and so on. However, for you, your discomfort is going the opposite direction- you are turning your discomfort inward.

      Hold your own feet to the fire. On the home front, make sure your debts are getting paid off and work on your savings/retirement accounts like it’s your religion to do so.

      On the work front, start looking for ways to take on more responsibility and/or develop yourself. If the best you can think of is to take an online class on a particular thing than do that. Continuously seek ways to grow yourself.

      In short your company is not challenging you. That means build your own challenges, both at home and at work. If you are having problems setting these goals, then talk with people you respect about various ideas you have or ask them for ideas.

  133. jenm*

    All I want to wear to work is a tailored shift dress and a matching blazer. Why doesn’t suiting for women come with a shift dress option instead of just pants and skirts?!? Unfortunately, I’m very short so it has to be petite too. bonus if there is a capped sleeve instead of sleeveless.

    Please tell me that someone has figured this out and can point me to them? I was just about to blow $300 on another jacket/skirt combo that I know I don’t really want but I need something to wear to work. Then I remembered that it is Friday and I’m hoping that someone here can help.

    1. Pontoon Pirate*

      I don’t remember where I saw this combo, but I think it was either on the JCrew site or the LOFT site.

    2. Nanc*

      Chadwicks of Boston (I know!). Believe it or not, the quality is pretty good despite how inexpensive it is.

      And if you sew, sheath dresses and simple blazers are easy to make and adjust.

    3. MsMaryMary*

      Talbots has dress/blazer options. The shift dress is not flattering on me (too square) but YMMV.

    4. ladyb*

      Hobbs (a UK brand, but I think it ships worldwide and definately ships to the US), does a lot of these and makes up a huge part of my work wardrobe. A bit spend, but they are great quality and last a long time so cost per wear is great.

    5. Policy degree*

      When I was looking for petite suits last year I saw the exact combination you describe by Tahari at a large Macy’s. It was winter, though. I’m not sure what their spring/summer options might be, but you could keep your eyes open for Tahari dress and jacket separates.

  134. Ad Astra*

    So, this week I had the first positive performance review of my career! The format at my company is extremely informal, but I could still tell it was actuall a good review for once. My managers and I were on the same page about my overall “rating.” I had planned to suggest that I attend more internal meetings to get a better feel for how our company/industry works, and my managers came up with the same suggestion independently. There were no critical comments at all (at least in my interpretation).

    It just feels good to know I’ve finally found the right fit, you know?

  135. TootsNYC*

    I am reading a book on workflow and work organization, and I am SO JAZZED ABOUT IT!!

    It’s Work Clean: What Great Chefs Can Teach Us About Organization, by Dan Charnas. The overline is: “The life-changing power of mise-en-place to organize your life, work, and mind.”

    It’s such an easy and captivating read.

    But even better, the author is really clear and thoughtful about how to translate the discipline of the restaurant kitchen–a place that’s concrete, tactile, measurable, bounded–and translate it to the modern office, which is more fluid.

    He has a great mixture of stories, philosophy and exercises for application.

    I’m only partway through it. I keep thinking I should slow down and savor it more, think about it more, but then I just keep reading (more, more, more, now, now, now!–as if it’s potato chips or ice cream).

    I realize that I do some of the things he talks about; I set up my computer screen and shortcuts much the way a chef sets up his workstation/mise-en-place.

    But he takes the mise-en-place beyond the cook’s workstation to be a philosophy for work in general. And he’s got greaet, clear examples of how it works in non-cooking situations.

    Oh, read it!

  136. Anon for this*

    A lot of the time when someone emails me with a request they CC my boss – usually this is okay because I’m not always in the office and if I have it I can just tell boss I have it handled. Recently someone CC’d my boss with a request that is totally and completely my job to do and I responded that I would take care of it, but didn’t realize he was CC’d because I was on mobile. I went on to do it and saw boss had already done it. Did it terribly – not according to specific guidelines that I follow because I’m the only one that works on it. I fixed it and emailed that one person that in the future they can just email me so we don’t duplicate efforts but now I have to mention it to boss that we should have an agreement that unless I’m off for the day I can handle all responsibilities with this specific task.

    1. TootsNYC*

      I might make it less, “we should have an agreement,” bcs somehow that implies that you’re bossing him around, but instead make it, “I want you to not have to worry, and to know that I’m on top of these things even though I’m mobile.” And also: “I’m finding that sometimes I have info or forms that aren’t available to you, so it’s actually less confusing if you leave them for me. I promise I’ll get to them. But if you’re nervous, maybe do a reply-all and say, ‘Let me know if you can’t get to it’? And if I can’t, I’ll certainly alert you.”

      So it’s about reassuring him, defining response time, making his life easier by leaving those things off his plate?

      1. Anon for this*

        yeah, this seems like a good idea. He probably did it because he figured I was busy with something, but I’m kind of a stickler on how I want this specific task done.

  137. Ashleigh*

    I graduated from college five years ago in film studies, but couldn’t find a full-time position in my field. I did a few internships and contract jobs (that lasted a month or two), but that was several years ago. I ended up working in the medical field doing clerical work for the past couple of years. I applied for entertainment jobs but couldn’t get anything. I showed someone who works in the film industry my resume, and they said it seemed like I was interested in doing medical secretary work because of the huge gaps of unemployment I have with any entertainment-related jobs. I recently went back to school to do a certificate program in entertainment studies (to show I’m truly interested), in the hopes it could lead to an internship and eventually a job. How do I address this transition in my cover letter – (1) my lack of experience of what I went to school for originally to (2) what I ended up doing, to (3) what I want to do now? I’m really struggling with this. Thanks!

    TL;DR: Need help addressing an unemployment gap in my resume. Originally went to school for film, but ended up working in the medical industry. Now back in school for film to re-enter the field.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think it’s tough when you’re into art/music/film/theater, because it’s hard to find full-time and paying-enough employment in those fields, so if you want to keep up with it all, you usually need to find a day job (restaurant server / office worker) to pay the bills and insurance, but then you also need to work a second “job” of doing your art evenings and weekends. It can be draining. But I think that’s what that person was looking for: Are you making YouTube videos, independent low-budget films, freelance commercial videos? Are you volunteering doing something with film? In other words, “Why aren’t you working two full-time jobs?”

    2. Anon Moose*

      I too have varied experiences and always use a resume that has a “Relevant experience” section and an “Other experience” section. That way the most relevant experience for whatever job/field floats to the top even if it was two jobs ago.
      In your cover letter, I’d try to do something more skills based- i.e. write it based on the skills they ask for in the job description instead of telling your life story. Address what skills you learned in your certificate program and your previous entertainment examples. Address any skills on the job descriptions that you may have gotten while in the medical field. See Alison’s cover letter examples.

    3. TootsNYC*

      I would think that you don’t even need to put your medical industry experience on your resumé.

      And I’d say look for any non-professional ways to use those skills, if you can’t get professional or part-time.

  138. katamia*

    I had my first informational interview this week, and it went well. I was curious about one thing the person I met with said, though. She said she had an EIN even though she didn’t need one so she didn’t have to give her SSN for everything, which I hadn’t realized was an option–I thought it was EINs for actual businesses (like if I started a company or LLC for my freelance/contracting work) and SSN was for if you’re just a person doing contracting work. So for all you contractors/freelancers/consultants out there: do you have an EIN? If so, do you feel like it was worth it? The logic in favor of getting one seems pretty solid to me, but all the info on EINs that I’ve been finding is directed toward whether you need one for your business, not whether you should have one if you don’t need one (and legally I’m not required to have one).

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      I process invoices for a bunch of independent contractors, and they’ve said it’s totally worth it. You can get one in under 10 minutes online, and then you don’t have your SSN number floating around.

      HOWEVER, I don’t know how how that relates to paying taxes. I would check with a CPA.

      1. Evan Þ*

        I’ve done volunteer tax prep with the VITA program, and there’s a space on top of the Schedule C (or C-EZ) to put an EIN next to your SSN. So, if you’re an independent contractor or otherwise self-employed, having an EIN won’t complicate your taxes at all.

  139. Caledonia*

    Just started an application for a job. And then I see this:
    Please give details of ALL full and part-time work including particulars of ALL paid and unpaid employment or experience after the age of 18, for example: commercial experience; raising family; youth work; voluntary work; VSO; work overseas. Work backwards from the present. If you have had breaks in employment, input ‘Break’ where the form says ‘Name of Employer’ and provide details in the ‘Outline of duties’ section.
    *headdesk* I’ve been working for 12 years, with plenty of “breaks”. WHY IS ALL THIS NECESSARY!?

    1. Cristina in England*

      Ugh, that is so annoying! Is it a public sector job? Why you do they always want to know too much sh** that doesn’t matter? I have a really good memory but I cannot tell you the exact month and day that I left my summer restaurant job in 2002! Total sympathy.

    2. Anon Moose*

      Unless its for a security clearance or a govenment job, that is waaaaay more than anyone really needs to know. Is it worth it?

    3. Charlotte*

      I had to compile a list like this and kept a spreadsheet on my computer (or word doc) with all the info saved. That way, once you’ve done it, you can save the info in your own files, and you can copy/paste in the future when needed. Really saves yourself future headaches. So at least think of it as something you should hopefully just do once and add to it as time goes by.

      1. Caledonia*

        Why have I never thought of this before!?? I will do this, although it’s a bit less helpful for application systems as they tend to be different. But at least the info will be there. Thanks :)

      2. Lindsay J*

        Yup, this is what I do (pretty much every job in my field requires a 10 year job and address history).

        I’ve got Google docs with all that info on in, and now I just have to add to it when necessary rather than trying to conjure up all the details every time I apply for a new position. It makes the process so much easier.

    4. TootsNYC*

      I bet what’s happening is that they’ve been burned by hiring people who turned out to be lousy, and then they found out that they got fired by one of their short-term previous jobs.

  140. JuniorDev*

    I applied for a job that has the weirdest application process I’ve ever seen. I’m wondering if anyone can give me a reality check and help me navigate this.

    Their site was in this over-the-top style (“are you hardcore enough to work here?!?!?” Not a literal quote but that kind of thing.) The application instructions said to send a “cover letter in bullet style” and no resume.

    I sent a bulleted list of reasons I thought I’d be good for the job. They replied by asking me to take an online personality test and come to an “info session” at a particular date and time a few weeks out.

    Is this weird? I feel like it’s weird, I hate personality tests but it’s not the first one I’ve taken, but the “info session” rather than an interview is weirding me out. From their website it seems like something multiple people will be at and that feels too much like a group interview for me.

    I don’t even really understand what the job is, because the posting is kind of unclear. Anyone been in a situation like this? Am I right to be put off or am I overthinking things? How should I proceed?

    1. Sadsack*

      Sounds kind if scammy. I wouldn’t give up a vacation day to attend without more detail. Can you contact the employer to find out more? I wonder if it is a MLM org.

    2. katamia*

      It’s weird. The flip side of the general “rule” (not an official rule, obviously) about following the application guidelines for any given job is that a company’s application process should be reasonable (e.g., it’s okay to say “Send your resume as .doc rather than .docx,” it’s unreasonable to say “Write a song about how much you want to work here, put it on YouTube, and we’ll hire the person whose song gets the most likes”). This makes the company seem really high-maintenance, and I’m going to assume there’ll be more of the same if you actually work there. I’d go to the info session if you’re open to having your mind changed about them, but if you’re just not feeling it, you might want to withdraw now just to save time and energy for jobs that are more what you want.

      1. katamia*

        Oh, hah. I think I assumed from your name that it was some sort of programming job. If not, yeah, probably a scam, or at least something so sketchy that you probably wouldn’t want to be associated with.

        1. JuniorDev*

          It is a programming job but they said some stuff about “everyone here is cross trained to do different things” and “we don’t hire people who think they only have to do strictly one thing” or something. It was weird.

          I think I’m going to ask specifically about those lines in the posting and make clear I want to do programming only, and if they seem to take issue with that I’ll be done.

      2. JuniorDev*

        Ahahaha it’s (supposedly) a web development job. That much is clear from the posting. It’s just not clear how or what or with whom I’d be working. But yeah I guess I wouldn’t be terribly surprised if they tacked “selling knives” onto the web dev duties somehow.

        I’m probably going to email back and ask for 1) some specifics on the job and 2) what the info session will be like.

        Do you think this is 100% scam my or more like “could be a scam, could be a company that doesn’t know how to communicate”?

      3. Snork Maiden*

        Me too. Is there some sort of way we can set up an Ask A Manager foundation and give people grants to go check out what may be ridiculous interviews? So people don’t have to give up their PTO on top of being asked to cook for 20 people.

        1. Isben Takes Tea*

          The flag that flies for me is the “info session.” It’s not even masquerading as an informational interview. They’re going to spend their time and resources investing in selling themselves/the company to people who haven’t even communicated their skills/experience (no resume)?

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I am assuming you did a google search for some of their better ad lines to see what you can find?
      It sounds like the ad has the desired result you are supposed to be thinking, “Am I overthinking this?”

      If you think you can go and get a laugh out of it, then go. If you feel yourself wanting to just deal with serious jobs, then skip it.

  141. Leena Wants Cake*

    Does anyone else have days where the mere presence/existence of your co-workers feels annoying? I work in an open office, and all of my co-workers are super quiet and respectful–they never have loud unnecessary conversations, disrupt you needlessly, or really do anything annoying at all. Maybe it is the extreme introvert in me, but some days I feel like I just cannot concentrate on my work because they are THERE (and I really really really prefer being alone). People moving about or shuffling paper is the worst, but even if they are silently working at their own desks, I can become fixated on the fact that they are THERE. I can become very agitated by it (silently and only to myself, of course). Am I the only one that does this? If this happens to you, do you have tips/tricks for remaining focused on your work in the presence of others? Am I just super neurotic?

    1. katamia*

      I WFH now, but when I was in an office: yes. Constantly. This is one of the reasons why I WFH, so I can control my environment more. It was a really quiet office, but every chair squeak or (work-related) conversation made me want to murder the perpetrator (not really), and sometimes it’s just really exhausting to be in a space with other people. Can you wear headphones? Also, if there’s a spot in your office that you think might be quieter (like if the main noise makers tend to cluster on one side or in one corner), could you ask if you could move to another, quieter desk?

    2. TootsNYC*

      I think a cognitive behavioral therapist (or similar) could help you find some techniques that would work.

      Because while it’s y our reality, it isn’t something that’s appropriate. People have every right to exist around you.

      Maybe you’d find it easier to cope if they actually made more noise.

      1. katamia*

        I can’t speak for Leena Wants Cake, but this is true for me. I don’t actually like quiet. I like a low, constant level of background noise that blocks out all the little noises that distract me. In college I never understood (and still don’t) how people could get any work done in those silent study rooms they had because people would still noisily turn pages, chairs would squeak, someone would cough, etc. And every single one of those sounds would distract me from whatever I was supposed to be working on.

    3. AnotherFed*

      I totally get this some days! It usually only happens to me when I’ve had too many meetings or interruptions to get anything at all done, my concentration just gets totally shot, and I’m stuck in a loop of being unable to focus on anything except the distractions. I try to do anything that will let my brain ‘reset’ – I take a walk around the outside of the building, go to the restroom and wash my face, run out and get a snack, etc. and if that doesn’t cut it I just take the rest of the day off or try to WFH because I’m not getting any work done anyway.

    4. Schnapps*

      I cannot say enough about the free white noise app and really good headphones I have. I tape a sign on the back of my chair in bright red saying “Working. Wearing headphones. Do not disturb unless I am on fire and don’t notice” and plug in with the sound of a cat purring, or rain falling. Or any number of other “white” noises that that drown out general office sounds.

      My side of the office is 8 of us arranged in 4 pods of two each. There are four of us in 2-corner pods (similar to a horseshoe) The four people on either end have no one behind them. I’m in a particularly annoying corner that has someone behind me and a walkway in front of me and to the side (and we have low dividers). The person across the walkway in front of me in great. The walkway to the side intersects the walkway in front and for some reason, people tend to have their business meetings there. That gets annoying since we have low dividers (that you can prairie dog on, but that’s another matter entirely).

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Things I have found increased my levels of agitation:
      Lack of sleep. Towards the end of the week even missing a few hours of sleep could make me grumpy.
      Poor diet/low hydration
      I hated the job
      I hated the particular task
      The particular task was beyond my abilities
      The task was tedious
      BEC stage with a coworker or boss
      That time of the month
      Bad lighting/ bad chair (back and neck pain grating on me)
      Too many things going on at home, dying parent, etc.

      I am sure I missed a few. I went one item at a time and tried to figure out how to reduce the impact. For things like a tedious task, I told myself to learn to suck it up. I am not recommending this technique to you. My point is some things you cannot change and you have to tell yourself a little tough love, such as, “I need food on my table.” One thing that I told myself was that keeping the job was based on my ability to find coping tools for the hard parts of the job.

      I work with a woman now who MAKES herself get up and go to the bathroom every two hours or so. It’s one of her coping tools. My work is pretty much self-paced. I will do a tedious, time consuming task then do a brief fun (to me) task. It’s a coping tool and the boss thinks I get a lot done. (Well actually I do get a good amount of stuff covered.)

      If none of this works or none of it fits your setting, it could possibly be that you are in the wrong work place or the wrong work. Some of the worst jobs I have had brought out the worst parts of my personality- my impatience, agitation, frustration, etc. I have been at my current job for four years with wonderful boss and what a big difference. I do not have to figure out how to deal with constant annoyances because I am not annoyed. It’s been an eye opening experience.

  142. Catalyst*

    I have just been offered a job back in my (small) home town across the country, it would be a huge move, but one that I am excited to make to be closer to my family again (I have nothing keeping me in this city anymore). The offer is everything that I asked for, and I am ready to accept it, although I admit, really nervous about such a big change!!
    My question is, I asked the new company to give me two months to move because there is a major change happening at the company I am leaving (which they were really great about and said yes to) and I do not want to leave them hanging as I am a senior employee and have been here for over 6 years: do I give my old company two months notice? I would prefer to, as then they can hire someone and I can give them a couple weeks training and they won’t be blind sided. However, on the other hand I am really nervous that they will get huffy about it despite the fact that I am leaving for personal reasons and ask me to leave sooner, leaving me without a job for two months.
    I could probably move sooner, but it would be hard to wrap everything up sooner, I have a class I am taking, a lease to get out of, things to sell, etc.

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      I’d say go back to the new employer and ask whether they can start you sooner if your current employer declines your notice period. If they say yes, give the two months. If they say no, wait and give two weeks. (This is assuming that you have good reason to believe your current employer would ask you to leave immediately, which I’m assuming based on you being really nervous about it.)

    2. Temperance*

      I would give them a month. That way, you have some time to get your ducks in a row. You should give yourself a week or two of a break, if you can financially swing it.

      1. TootsNYC*

        I think a month is probably enough, to be honest. Once someone is leaving, I think everybody starts mentally moving toward that direction.

        But I like Gandalf the Nude’s idea of seeing if New Company would take you earlier.

        another option is to start the new job in 2 months, and wait 2 weeks to a month to give a one-month notice. And use that “secret notice” weeks/month to do surreptitious wrap up. But I think a clear 2-month or 1-month would be better.

  143. Jade*

    Reference questions: 1) How far back in your work history do employers check? I recently left two very toxic jobs and have started a new job, and will return to yet another one soon. One is only temp and the other part time, so both new managers know I will be looking for permanent, full time work (in addition to the PT job), and are fine with giving me a reference. I just want to know if there’s a chance potential employers will want to speak with my last two former bosses at some point. To make a long story short, many people have told me I had valid reasons for leaving those toxic jobs, but I still don’t want employers talking to these bosses if I can help it. I fear the last boss in particular is underhanded enough to drag me through the mud.

    2) How do I handle a situation if an employer wants a reference from my former boss but that company goes out of business before then (which it looks like it might do in the next year)?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      How far back in your work history do employers check?

      How far do they check? I suppose they can check back as far as they want. Alison frequently says that employers have the right to contact references that you don’t list.

      That said, I think most employers aren’t going to check more than five references, and many have you list only three.

    2. AnotherFed*

      Employers are going to want to check references they think will give them valuable info, so there are plenty of reasons they might want prior bosses. It sounds like you’re fairly new to both current jobs, so those references won’t have as much weight/evidence for why you rock – someone who has only supervised you for a couple months probably won’t have specific examples of your contributions, which thorough reference checkers will want. If the old jobs used skills or were types of work more in line with what you want to be doing in the next job, you’ll want those references (especially when your current jobs don’t require those things).

      If a company goes out of business, give the reference checker whatever info you have from former boss and explain that the company is no longer in business – can you connect on LinkedIn or get a personal email address for this person? If not, just give former boss’ name, explain that you have kept in touch, offer other references, and let them decide if they want to dig up your old boss or go with the other references.

    3. Graciosa*

      I have also seen this handled by time rather than by number of previous jobs. I’ve had checks that go back 5, 7, or 10 years, and also one that covered by entire adult life. It is possible to have background and reference checks combined, which can produce additional information.

      If it is truly only a reference check, you should be able to provide other references that can speak to your performance during that time period. It doesn’t guarantee that new prospective employers won’t ever speak to the bad references, but it can improve your chances or at least give you an opportunity to explain or counteract a negative reference.

      Good luck.

  144. LawCat*

    I got a message from a place I interviewed with a few weeks ago wanting to schedule a second interview. I’ve actually been thinking about it a lot since the first interview and am going to withdraw my application. They do not allow flexible schedules, which I have now, and that’s the deal breaker. Even with the things that I don’t like where I work, I have realized having the schedule is super important to me. It would be a lateral move in a government job so there isn’t a chance of higher pay or anything like that.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Tell them why! If employers start hearing this from withdrawing candidates, it will create real pressure on them to change those policies.

      1. LawCat*

        I certainly would if they asked, but they couldn’t get me off the phone fast enough when I withdrew. It was actually kind of a weird call. When I said I was withdrawing, the person said, “Perfect. Thanks for calling back” and that was it, good-bye. Perfect?

  145. Anon Moose*

    So we hired someone late last year for an admin position and they recently put in their notice. It was a bit surprising since it is only six months in. I can’t exactly blame them because they are going for a similar position at a large company (whereas we work at a nonprofit). And on top of that, in recent weeks I’ve seen an uptick of this person calling in sick for illnesses and doctors appointments and today notified us they were using a personal day. The org gives ample sick time and 4 personal days a year on top of accrued vacation, but I find it a bit odd to use a personal day a few days after giving your two weeks notice? It makes me think they are trying to spend down all of their benefits (which were meant to be used over an entire year) before leaving for a corporate culture where they may not have nearly as much flexibility. Idk, is this normal or appropriate? The way the position is designed I give work to this person but am not their manager.

      1. Bea W*

        And not in government as well. My state requires that unused vacation time get paid out to a person when they leave, but it does not include personal days. It’s pretty normal for people to try to use any time they have that they won’t be paid out if they leave. The doctor’s appointments make sense to if there’s going to be a change or gap in insurance coverage or the employee has any unused money in an FSA/HSA that will be lost if it’s not spent before their last day. I know that was something I was very careful about when leaving my last two jobs, checking my FSA to make sure I neither went over my actual contribution to date or left a heap of unused money behind.

    2. Delyssia*

      I would think the increase in calling in sick is because they were interviewing, unless your company has some verification method in place to make people “prove” they were sick or seeing the doctor.

      Taking a personal day after turning in notice isn’t exactly the way to leave people with a great impression, but, well, this person was there for 6 months–realistically, were they ever going to have a really good reference from anyone there?

    3. LisaD*

      Maybe they won’t have health insurance for a while and are taking care of things that built up over the last 6 months before leaving.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I have worked for a few companies that clearly stated, notice period is for days actually worked, not for PTO days. In reality, people did whatever. No one really wanted to enforce that policy, they want to leave then let them leave.

  146. JBean*

    This week I’ve been working out details with my boss on a promotion (yay!) and in the next couple of weeks we’ll be announcing the new position to the rest of the team. I’ll be managing the people who are currently my peers and I think the transition will be easy for the most part because I have great relationships with almost all of them. The one that worries me is the one low performer, and how I will deal with that in my new role. My boss is aware of the issues with this employee and has said he will help me to deal with them (and quickly, as we both know she needs to be removed).

    What I’m wondering about, is when I do become her manager, would it be appropriate for me to address any of her performance issues that I know of from being a peer? There are several things that she does that I only know about because I work beside her currently, and our manager works across the country. They are mostly related to her work ethic – things like bringing her personal phone to meetings and texting her friends the whole time, coming in to work late and putting on her makeup at her desk, taking long breaks at rigid times each day even when she’s on a deadline and not getting work done, lots of personal calls at her desk (not sure what she does on her long breaks!), etc. I’m fairly certain she wouldn’t do this in front of our current manager. Can I address this right off the bat?

    1. Marina*

      I think it’d be awkward to try and retroactively address things that you saw before you were her official manager, but you can absolutely state your expectations that in the future she will be at work on time, pay attention in meetings, and meet all her deadlines.

    2. TootsNYC*

      I disagree; I think you can talk about those problems once you’re her manager. Just acknowledge that you saw them earlier (did the manager not see them?)

      I wouldn’t make them the focus of the PIP, but they could be the thing that frames a conversation about “Going forward, I’m going to need to see some efficiency and work ethic from you. In the past, I know that you have taken your phone to meetings, put on your makeup at your desk, and take a lot of personal calls at your desk instead of during breaks. These are things I’m not going to be able to look past now that I’m the manager.”
      Sort of “I can’t have the same attitude toward you that I used to have, so things are different now.” You start counting from zero on the timeline, but you give an alert from -50. (Does that make sense?)

      For the rigid breaks, I’d ASK about those–there may be health things that you weren’t aware of.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I love this, it makes so much sense. Make sure you check in with your boss. It’s also important to get off on good footing with the boss. If Toots’ idea sounds good to you, run it by your boss and let him know this is how you were thinking of starting. He may have a plan already and he may appreciate your check-in first before you do anything.
        This is something that you want to coordinate well on, you do not want this to go on forever and ever.

    3. LCL*

      Do you want to bother with a PIP, or do you just want her gone? If big boss wants to remove her, give her decent notice and a severance package and fire her.

  147. Mimmy*

    Alison – Just checking to see if you’ve made any headway with that ad thingie; it crashed my browser just now :(

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Nope — I’m at their mercy for timing. I’m not clear on what the timeline for their fix will be, but I’ll let people know when it happens (next week at the earliest).

  148. A Cita*

    Question: How weird would it be for me to pass on a name/potential candidate for a job I’m currently in the running (ish) for?

    Background: Friend A recommended me for a position in her company. I’ve been chatting off and on with the hiring manager. It’s a tech start up, so super casual. Job has never been posted–their trying to recruit based on word of mouth/recommendations. I’m not actually actively on the job market (am employed). We’re not sure we’re the right fit for each other, thus talks haven’t really progressed. It’s all good. Neither of us are worried about it or panicked about it. Both feel it’s great to connect no matter the outcome–seems unlikely I’ll join their team.

    Friend B would be a much better fit, both experience and culture-wise, and is currently looking for a position. Weird or inappropriate to put them in touch?

    Realize this post is late on a long list of comments, so figure many won’t see, but would be glad for any response.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I don’t think it would be super weird, but you’d probably put yourself out of the running. If you’re okay with that, it sounds like they’re trying to get the word out by word of mouth anyway, sp I think you have an easy opening to say, “As we’ve discussed this role, I don’t think it’s the right fit for me, but I have a friend who would be phenomenal because… If you’re open, I’d love to make the connection.”

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think it’s weird or inappropriate at all. “It’s been great chatting with you. Your company looks super impressive. I’m pretty happy where I am, but I know someone who might be a great fit for your company. Let me know if you want me to forward her résumé on to you.”

    3. TootsNYC*

      If you pass on the name, I think there’s a strong subtext that you don’t want this particular job. As long as you’re happy with that sub-message, I think it would be great to pass on someone else.
      That would say, “I wish your company well, and I’d like to work there in some OTHER job.” I think it would move you to the top of the list for any opening that did fit your skills.

    4. A Cita*

      Thank you all for your late Friday replies. This is helpful. I’m happy to put them in touch and bow out. But just wanted to make sure my thinking on this wasn’t super weird. Thanks much!

  149. Schnapps*

    Step one: your work email dies; there’s no server connection.
    Step 2: call IT. IT message says, “Due to unforseen circumstances, no help centre specialists are available to help you. Please leave a message.”

    I went to my manager to ask if we could go home for the day. It’s 2:30, on a Friday, it’s a gorgeous day out and the office is mostly empty anyways. She looked like she was considering it.

    1. Bea W*

      Too late now, but this is when I catch up on backlog filing or some other things that pile up that don’t require email. However, if there really is nothing you can do without email, may as well leave early rather than sit around doing nothing.

  150. InternSupervisor*

    I’m a new supervisor for our hourly intern. We don’t pay for the intern’s one hour lunch break, but in reviewing her time sheet this week I realized she has not been taking a lunch break so she can get to 40 hours without working 8-5. If she’s choosing not to take a lunch break, is that legally ok? Other than reinforce that we want her to take a break – does she have to take a break?

    1. CAA*

      It depends on your state law. In California, it is not ok for a non-exempt employee to work more than 5 hours without a 30 minute break. (There are very specific exceptions which are unlikely to apply to an intern.)

      1. Bea W*

        Massachusetts requires a 30 meal break for anyone working 6 or more hours (yes it specifically says “meal break”). We were reminded of this repeatedly at one place where I worked, because of people not taking the mandatory 30 minute break (at least on paper). This is also a problem with our hourly workers at my current workplace. They think by not taking a break for lunch that allows them to get their 8 hours/day without adding time to their workday. This is actually illegal in MA and can get the company in a lot of trouble. I suspect the one company where that started requiring managers to constantly remind us about it did get in trouble.

        I also recall at my first job as a teenager (nearly 30 years ago), my manager explaining she was required by law to give us 15 minute breaks for every 4 hours worked, and saw that we complied.

        Potential legal issues aside, there are good reasons to not work 8 hours straight without any kind of break. Even if it is not mandatory, if I were a manger I would strongly encourage people to break during the day and take time for at least a small meal at some point.

    2. Kerr*

      California only requires a 1/2 hour break, I believe. Maybe this would be an option for your intern?
      And may I say thank you for emphasizing that you want her to be able to take a break? Younger me really appreciated hearing that from various bosses/supervisors!

    3. SusanIvanova*

      Insist on the break – one of the things interns often need to learn is how to balance work and breaks. They come in all enthusiastic and get caught up in what they’re doing. Sure, that project is awesome, and you’ve only got the summer to do it, but we are all going to the beer bash and you *are* coming with us, and you are not going to stay late afterwards (this was software, they weren’t hourly).

    4. Not So NewReader*

      In NY this is a huge no-no. It involves fines and other unhappy stuff. Ask your boss how the company wants this handled. Personally, I would just push her out the door to break. I think it’s a poor/unhealthy work habit and she should not be starting it this early in her career.

  151. Kat M*

    I’ve committed to staying at my job until I move in July, but we just got May’s schedule and it appears that four of my coworkers have put in their notice. I’m jealous. Partly because I want out now, and partly because everything stinks more when we’re shortstaffed.

    And hardly anybody qualified wants these jobs, since they could make more as a manager at Taco Cabana.

    :P

  152. LisaD*

    Anyone have brilliant tips on focus + time management while dealing with grief? :(

    (Already doing the see a professional part, my emotional health is important to me and I take care of it with the proper medical professional – but still having trouble with giving a shit at work right now, where the environment has been very political and stressful. I want to run away and start my own company.)

    1. Katie the Fed*

      I think it’s ok to not give a shit. Can you just go through the motions of doing the tasks, without really giving that much of a shit? Do a few tasks, take a break. Do a few more, etc.

      1. Bea W*

        Second this! Sometimes we just run out of f*cks to give, and that’s totally normal when you are going through a difficult time personally and have bigger things on your mind and heart. Take short breaks as needed. If you find you are just sitting at your desk unable to do anything or focus on work, take 5 or 10 min and come back to it. Switch up tasks. If you are getting nowhere on something boring, switch to something you find more interesting for a bit, and come back to the boring task.

        If you can somehow just mentally tune out the office politics, that helps me a lot. I just keep my head down and do my job and deliberately not pay attention to the politics as much as I can get away with doing so.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I put myself in robot mode. I told myself that in a few months or whatever time frame, I would start caring again and I had best not screw up the job right now. So I robotically went through my days, doing what I was supposed to be doing and waiting for the caring to return.

      Moving about and doing normal tasks does help to process grief. Although it can feel very painful right now. It will gradually hurt a little less in time.

      When I was home, I would set aside some cry time. I deliberately made myself cry with sad music or whatever it took to push some tears out. After a bit I noticed that I did actually feel better the next day. But relief did not come the same day I did my cry time.

      Reading books on how the grief process works really helped me, too. For example, it’s pretty normal to not remember even ordinary things. You go to work and realize you forgot your glasses. Normal stuff. This made me realize I needed extra time to get ready to go some where. I needed to leave notes to myself for some things. If I needed to bring something to work, I would put it on the front seat of my car the night before.

      People in grief are more apt to have accidents, because they are not focusing on what they are doing right now. Drive with caution. If you are walking around be aware of where you are putting your feet. I have started to fall on steps in the house a couple of times. But each time I was holding on to the hand rail. Just taking that extra second to put exercise a little more care, can be so helpful.

      And last, maybe you are supposed to run away and start your own company. Realize that this is how many things get started. It starts with a person who has experienced a loss and concludes, “Damn. Life is too short. I gotta beef up what I am doing here before life passes me by.” It’s a pretty common occurrence that people’s grief leads them to making major life changes. And this is yet another way of processing grief- go get the life you want, make a mark on this world.

  153. Anon For This*

    So I’m struggling with something at work and would welcome advice/suggestions. Apologies for the length – I thought of emailing AAM directly, but there’s some identifying details in my post below that I’d feel more comfortable with buried in the comments.

    Let me preface this by saying that I’ve been in my position for a year, after leaving 5 years of hell working for a toxic boss and where my skills were underutilized and under appreciated. In my current job, I have the best manager of my career, a path to advancement in the future, and I get to do a lot of things I love and am good at. I’m somewhat underpaid for the type of job, but there’s a lot of flexibility, perks and benefits that mostly make up for it. The problem I’m having is that when it comes to the service we provide (a highly specialized type of warehouse), our quality is awful. Employees on the production floor routinely make mistakes that result in us losing tens of thousands of dollars (sometimes more) of our client’s product. As the person responsible for maintaining the client relationship, this puts me in a very uncomfortable and embarrassing position a good chunk of my time. I came from a manufacturing background where errors could cause trains to crash and planes to fall out of the sky, so the total tack of quality is absolutely apalling.

    You may be wondering how we stay in business. Like I said, we’re in a very specialized industry, and there are literally only 4 other companies in the U.S. that do what we do and a lot of companies that need us to do it. Sadly, we are considered one of the best, because unlike some of our competitors we give clients a lot of visibility to our metrics, admitting when we screw up and repaying the client in many cases. There used to be a lot more competition, but there was acquisition after acquisition until only the 5 were left.

    Recently new leadership was brought in, and I was really hoping that it would make a difference. But there’s enough bad apples left that it’s not as effective a move as I’d hoped, combined with the fact the the new management is facing insurmountable issues to resolve. It’s as if they need to shut the whole place down and start over from scratch to figure out how to operate quickly, accurately, with enormous volume and a production staff that’s never held been accountable because we can’t keep staff adequately as it as. Fiscally, I don’t see that as being a valid option that anyone who could make that call would want to explore.

    Although I love so many things about my job, it’s extremely demoralizing to be in a customer facing role under these circumstances. I work very hard, long hours and as meticulously as possible to not add my own errors to the mess. I’ve built a great relationship with my client, and lately have felt like it’s morally wrong for my company to keep taking their money for such shoddy service when there’s so few options. Part of me wants to look for another job where I can be proud of the company I represent, but then I’m terrified of losing the good things I already have.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Have you spoken to your boss about this?
      Do you have a QC person?
      Is the annual income up/down or flat compared to other years?
      Do you keep clients or do they just keep rotating through the four competing companies?

      Would you have to go work for one of the competitors or could you break away from this arena entirely?

      To me ethics issues are deal breakers. BUT. I have seen major ethics issues in most places. Some of them rankle me more than others. I would be pretty upset with shoddy service/product. So for me, I would push to find out when improvements will be starting. Listen to their answer.
      I have worked production a lot myself. So I understand the sentiment that the whole line needs to be shut down and redone. But sometimes a few areas of the line can be fixed and major concerns can be resolved. It may take a specialist to figure out strategic changes.

      I believe that high turn over is related to crappy service/product. They found ethics issues too so they left. I would argue that if your company beefs up it’s quality, the employee retention will increase.

      The problem remains is that most of this is beyond your control. So the best you can do is ask them what their plan is and closely listen to their answer. Their answer will be your guide as to what you should do next.

  154. anononetime*

    Anyone else dislike office fundraisers? How do you deal?

    We had a repeat offender come round again today asking for sponsorship. If it was a one off for a big event I wouldn’t mind chipping in a few dollars but she does several events a year and we’re not talking marathons, but short distance events. I really feel like she should send out an email and leave a sponsorship form somewhere prominent and let people make their own minds up but instead she goes individually to each person’s desk. I’m sure she generates more money that way but it makes it very awkward, how do you explain that you don’t have the money to put $10 down multiple times a year for multiple people and just don’t want to sponsor her when the whole office is joining in.

    1. Nanc*

      My standard line is I’ve already committed my charity dollars so I wish you luck but I ask that you stop soliciting me for these fundraisers/charity things. Yeah, some people get offended but really, it’s my money and I have my pet causes.

      I’m also a grump who thinks you shouldn’t solicit for this stuff at work unless you’re in the break room, and even then you don’t pout when someone turns you down.

    2. Katie the Fed*

      Does your office have a policy about them? Many do, so I’d go back to that and say that you don’t want her to get in trouble for soliciting donations.

      Otherwise, I’d just say that you’re not able to, but thanks.

      I get pretty sick of these things too. Especially if it’s just someone wanting to do the race, with no personal connection or passion for the cause.

    3. LisaD*

      Honesty may be the best policy here. “I’ve decided to stop pitching in for office fundraisers, because I feel like if I give to one, I have to give to all of them and then nothing is left over in my pocket for the charities I personally support.”

  155. overeducated*

    Very late here. The past three weeks have been quite a marathon of job interviews, mostly by phone but a few in person; a few seem like they wouldn’t be good fits for me, but there are a few I’m hopeful for. Fingers crossed. I think I’m going to leave my seasonal job this summer, to catch a breath if I get a chance and maintain flexibility to interview for year-round positions, but I haven’t had the nerve to actually cut the cord yet because I’m scared I’ll wind up long term unemployed. Is taking a couple months off a terrible idea?

    The main thing I’ve learned this week is to be prepared for dumb questions. I prep hard for interviews, reviewing the organizations, writing lots of notes about how my skills and experiences match their openings, and coming up with questions, because I’m used to interviews asking me specifics about my qualifications and approach. But then I completely blew a quick phone screen on Monday when I was taken by surprise by questions like “tell me about yourself…outside of what’s on your resume” and “what is one word your friends would use to describe you,” both of which I interpreted too literally. I was thinking “but I’m here to tell you about my professional life!” and “I can’t know if I don’t ask them, and it’s not honest to say what I’d WANT them to say,” so I had trouble answering. I know these are pretty general HR type questions but they have not come up for me in a long time because of the level of position I’m interviewing for. Well, now I have a list of professionally flattering words that I would *hope* my friends and colleagues would use to describe me, and a life narrative that coincidentally leads up to my excitement about X position, both of which I got to use in another phone interview today. You live, you learn.

    1. Rob Lowe can't read*

      I had this happen in an interview once. He said, “Tell me about yourself,” so I started doing my quick rundown (“I graduated from University of X in May, and before that…”). He cuts me off and goes, “No! Tell me about yourself! Who you are. Imagine you’re on a date, tell me what you would tell him.” The interview consisted entirely of “fun” questions, such as “Describe your perfect birthday party,” and “What kind of tree would you be?” It was awful. I came in prepared to talk about, you know, my qualifications for the position, and there were zero questions about work.

      At the time, I went with it – I was desperately in need of a job, and there was a skills test right after the interview that I knew I was going to nail. (And I did.) But I think if I had another one like that now (this was two years ago), I would excuse myself from the process.

      1. overeducated*

        So frustrating! The worst part, for me, was that the “personality” questions must have been some attempt to judge cultural fit, but because I was taken aback and had to think, I am sure I didn’t come across as a super engaging personality. Especially since less than ten minutes is not enough time to establish rapport or get into a discussion, really.

  156. Jessen*

    I really really hate online application systems. They just encourage making stupid fields mandatory. Why yes, we really need the info on every job you’ve ever worked, someone to contact at that job, and your starting and ending pay.

  157. The People's Couch*

    Your thoughts please.

    DH recently transferred departments. Were talking along the lines of going from Design to Accounting. I switched departments recently too, going from Communications to IS. Both seemingly unrelated, but now we do job B knowing all the things we know from Job A. We both stayed with our respective employers.

    We’ve had some lively conversation over this: I feel like DH needs to cut the cord with the design team (full disclosure, I don’t like them for various reasons). You don’t work with them anymore. You are now in accounting. Make work friends in accounting. Focus on accounting. I’m exaggerating, but it feels like he goes over to the design department every chance he gets. He doesn’t even like these people! Aaaahhhh. It’s just something familiar. I say he needs to move on. I’m not saying cut the design team off cold turkey or avoid them or anything drastic – projects still overlap, but at the end of the day you are on a new team in a completely different division. What if he had gotten an accounting job at another company? You would literally never see these people again.

    Maybe it’s our personalities, but I am literally going through the same thing right now. I still work with my old communications team maybe one instance a month. I will say hello to my old team at meetings we have every other month and we are friendly, but I’m on a new team now. Meh.

    I don’t think it will affect him professionally or anything (do you? would managers think its odd? if you were on the design or accounting team what would you think?). My feelings on the situation are definitely clouded by the fact that the design team people are not my favorite people.

    Advice to myself: this too shall pass. It will take time, but it’s been months. I don’t have patience for this type of thing.

    1. Colette*

      Why do you care? If it’s bothering him, I think you can say that – ” you seem to feel like you’re caught in the middle”- but other than that, it’s his to handle. He can stay in closer touch with his old team than you would.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Yeah, it is your personalities, differences in people.
      It don’t think anyone will think it’s odd. Maybe they will think it’s a PITA, but not odd.

      Sometimes we have to let the people at work convince our spouses, because our spouses can’t hear us. I remember the first time I did this- let the people at work handle it. My husband was diagnosed diabetic and he followed his diet therefore he lost some weight. He clothes looked frumpy on him. Well, they never looked that great when they fit right and now it was worse. He was happy to get new clothes that fit. But, he said he was going to keep wearing the old clothes as they still had wear left in them. (The clothes were 15 years old. I cringed to myself.) Then it dawned on me that the people at work would handle this. And that they did. My husband quickly noticed how many compliments he got on his new clothes. Pretty soon the old clothes went to the back of the closet. Then after a bit he was willing to toss them out. I remained the “good guy” in this story because I let nature run its course and did not make a big deal out of it. (My husband was a techie type person who paid no attention to clothes. Not his own or anyone else’s.)

      Say your part that you want to say and then let it go. The people at work will tell him or he will get tired of it and stop doing it.

  158. jumpyjane*

    I work in a small family-owned business where most of the staff have been here almost 15 to 20 years. I’m making slightly above-average for my industry and area but I haven’t had a raise for 2 years. we recently expanded a little and while my duties and position stays the same, it feels like I’m doing more work lately. How do I ask for a raise when the business owners don’t give out even cost-of-living increases? I think that some of the long-timers have had the same pay for even longer.
    Our manager is so overworked that we don’t get annual reviews, so how do I approach her? Any help would be appreciated. I don’t want to leave because I think I’m getting paid better than what I would working a larger business, but certifying up to the next level takes at least two years. I’m worried that they’ve capped my pay and I don’t have any room for growth that won’t take two years. I would be okay with the standard cost-of-living if it happened every year.

    1. Colette*

      If you’re making more than you would elsewhere, why should you get a raise? If you believe you could make more elsewhere, Alison has suggestions on how to ask for a raise, but there is no guarantee you’ll get a raise every year, particularly if you’re overpaid.

    2. CAA*

      You need to make a case that the value of the work you’re doing for your employer is more than they are currently paying you. Talk to your manager about how you’ve taken on additional responsibility and increased your output and give examples, then say you’d like to talk about an increase in salary that reflects the increase in responsibility. Do your research and have numbers in mind.

      Do not mention “standard cost-of-living” increases. Even if your personal expenses have gone up, cost of living overall has not (social security’s adjustment for 2016 was zero). Your argument has to be about the value you bring to the business. If you cannot make that argument because other companies pay less for the same work you do, then it is going to be very difficult to get a raise. You might have to bite the bullet and stay there for two years while you do the certification that will earn you more money.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Maybe it is the cynic in me, but you have all the ingredients for NO raises, EVER: small family biz, old staff, no COL raise, over-worked boss, no annual reviews.

      It might be a stereotype thing to say but your pay probably is capped given these givens. Expect to keep having more work added to your responsibilities.

      If I were you, I would start working on my certification in preparation to move on.

  159. Schnapps*

    Ok, it’s late in the day but fingers, toes and eyes crossed for husband-type. He is three reference calls away from a job after being laid off over a year ago.

  160. OH NO ANON*

    Hi,

    I worked in a office where I recently discovered that almost everyone has their own rules for doing things. Almost everyone follow a different set of rules, including my manager and her boss.

    My manager, let’s call her Edith, and her boss, let’s call him Gerald, have given me different direction on many things, including who can sign-off, where files can be stored, how to write descriptions, etc.

    I did not tell Gerald about Edith’s different directions. I once told Edith that Gerald said a different person was to sign-off on making changes, but Edith just told me that she can sign-off on it. I let her sign, since I was afraid to raise the issue with my manager again. I am not sure how Gerald will feel if Edith signs it.

    I am afraid that telling either one of them about each other’s different set of directions might lead to conflict and it might ruin other people’s autonomy of doing their work, which they had been doing for a long time, by forcing them all to follow one way of doing things.

    I have heard that it is best to only ask your direct manager on issues related to your work. However, my work is a little bit different from the rest of the people in my department. My department is split into Unit A and Unit B. My manager is part of Unit B and teaches me everything that has to do with Unit B work. My data entries contains both data from Unit A and Unit B. I have been assigned to work on both Units. Whenever I have questions regarding Unit A, I have to ask another senior management staff for help.Gerald oversees the entire department and sometimes he assigns me data and corrections to input, which contains mostly Unit A material, but can contain Unit B material sometimes. As I worked with Gerald, I sometimes asked him preferences about how he wants certain projects done, and while he explained them, he actually has a different set of rules than Edith and he seems to assume that all Unit A and Unit B work should follow these rules. He mentioned things such as “worried that some files might be placed in a different drawer than the one he designates.”

    So far I have only filed Gerald’s projects I have done. I haven’t file things Edith have signed off on, for I am not sure how he would feel if he sees that I used Edith as a sign-off.

    Right now my manager is currently on a weeks long vacation and Gerald is still in the office. I do not have much idea on what to do at this point and I am not sure if I am brave enough to do it. I am afraid what I say might upset my manager, might make Gerald be upset with Edith, Gerald to be upset with me, etc.

    I also wanted to add that my work is subject to audit by external auditors.

    1. Colette*

      You need to bring this up. You can as Edith about unit b, but you have to ask Gerald about unit a, and you have to be clear that they are asks you to do things differently.

    2. it happens*

      Your last sentence is the most important – if there are auditors, there should be written procedures that they are auditing against. Ask for them. No need to talk about the differing instructions at first; you should just be able to say that you want to make sure that your work will pass audit and want to study the process. If pushed, you can mention the confusion caused by two different procedures. You may even be able to go to a central department to get the instructions… good luck

      1. OH NO ANON*

        I am not really sure if there is a single written rule from my company on how files are stored. I believe my department is the only one that has a say in how their files should be stored.

        If I ask either Gerald or Edith about it they might be confused or bothered by why I am asking them something that they gave clearly givien me insturctions for? I have also done files soley in Edith’s way and done some files solely in Gerald’s way. I am afraid of how they might respond if they saw these.

        There is also something else that makes this situation agonizing: I do not really know who is truly my main boss.
        Gerald is more likely the one to have hired me. He email me that I am hired, with Edith knowing about it of course. Edith trained me on most of the procedures and does my annual performance review, with Gerald being aware and agreeing to her input. Gerald makes sure that I am done with my monthly projects on time, and he is also in charge of whether I can get promoted or not. They both can verified my time schedule. Edith is mostly listed as my manger in employee database systems. I seemed to have an equal stake on pleasing both people. They both assign me projects to do.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “I am afraid that telling either one of them about each other’s different set of directions might lead to conflict and it might ruin other people’s autonomy of doing their work, which they had been doing for a long time, by forcing them all to follow one way of doing things.”

      You can’t have both. You can either have the two bosses being consistent in what they tell you OR you can have everyone doing what they feel like doing. You have to pick.

      I would leave this job. Seriously, before it messes up your thinking any further. The fact that some work is done one way and some work is done another way and this worries YOU, is very telling about how much off track this company is. You were following the instructions of your bosses and somehow you feel you must hide the differences from each boss. Leave. Get out. This is not your problem. Meanwhile, you could be in a professional business growing your skills. The skills you are growing here are the wrong kind, they are the kind that will not help you in your next work place because these skills are not necessary in healthy work places.

  161. newreader*

    I was recently assigned to be on a hiring committee. Even though it’s a really busy time, I committed to spending extra time to do a thorough job with the committee. It now appears the whole committee is a sham, that we’re just a beard to give respectability to the hiring of a predetermined person. Grrrr!

  162. Rebecca*

    I’d like to know how to stop this silly Administrative Professional’s day, or whatever it is. I am not an Admin, but my manager always insists on taking us to lunch on this day because it’s on the calendar, and to show appreciation. We haven’t received cost of living increases in over 5 years, and the trend will continue based on the new owner’s track record, so a paltry lunch at a chain restaurant once per year just doesn’t cut it.

    Oh, and I heard her make a statement about how much fun we were having, and wouldn’t it be great if we could organize fun group activities after work! Oh, no, not going to happen. Once I escape at quitting time, my time is my time…no thanks.

    1. Just Say No*

      To me it’s like Valentine’s Day – shouldn’t I appreciate my spouse/partner/sweetie all year long and not just once a year? Admins should be appreciated year-round, not just one day in April.

  163. Gareth Keenan Investigates*

    What are your thoughts on teaching at a for profit college? I’ve already agreed to take a course for this semester and I’m definitely aware of the problems with for profit schools. Just wondering if this is an ok way to get teaching experience or if it’ll reflect poorly on me professionally. I do have a great job in my field, this is a side gig bc I love teaching and hope to do more someday.

    1. fposte*

      I think it has the potential to hurt you, certainly. You doubt you could teach English at UofP and then expect to get an adjunct hire at UCLA. It might be less true if you’re talking about a spinoff professional course (small business administration if you’re a business owner, that kind of thing) or a course where it’s mostly practicality (photography comes to mind), and if your nonprofit hopes are aimed at community colleges or lower-profile and less competitive schools. But that’s a guess.

      1. fposte*

        Sorry, that’s “*I* doubt” in the second sentence. Failed to complete a revision properly.

  164. Mimmy*

    I know I’m buried under 1100+ comments, but I just thought of a question:

    When my Law & Policy professor assigns papers, he provides very little guidance. For example, he’ll just give a one or two sentence directive: A 2-3 page analysis on the potential impact of X on Y. I’m all for flexibility but I tend to prefer having more guidance than that, particularly given that the topic is pretty broad – I don’t know how I’m going to keep this to 2-3 pages.

    Anyway – Is this a realistic view of what it might be like to do writing projects for an employer, such as a policy or issue brief? Is it unreasonable to expect specific guidelines on a writing assignment as an employee?

    1. Colette*

      I can’t think of an example of a writing assignment as an employee. Sure, there are things you need to write, but writing is the process, not the goal. For example, you might need to write documentation on how a process works, or fill out an application for a program, or send an email explaining X, but your assignment would be to document the process, for example, not to write something. In other words, the goal is typically more of the focus than the writing.

      But yes, sometimes the instructions can be vague. In a lot of cases, you’re expected to look at what has been done in the past and adapt to that style or level of detail, or to ask questions to make sure you’re on the same page as your manager.

      (Having said that, I have no idea about what is involved in policy or issue briefs specifically._

    2. Felicia*

      Whenever my boss tells me to write something it’s just like “You should write a web story on X topic” or “Can you write me a speech for Y event? Here’s my topic.” It has been my experience in this job in particular, but in my work experience in general the kind of instruction I get at work is closer to what your Law & Policy professor gives and asking for specific guidelines (depending on how specific you mean) would make my boss think I need too much hand holding and would negatively affect my job. Now this is just my experience in communications jobs at small non profits but my work experience has been most similar to what your professor does.

      1. Mimmy*

        Heh. It sure seems like my professor is emulating a real-world experience. Which is fine, but I would think that school is the time to provide that sort of hand-holding so that I can write these kinds of papers should I decide to eventually pursue such jobs, such as in a research institution, communications, nonprofit advocacy, etc.

        Thank you and Colette. This is why I’m asking questions now, to decide whether these types of roles would be a good fit or not. Everyone says I’m a good writer, but I have to decide if I can function without the level of guidance I’d probably seek.

        1. EW*

          In the realm of policy analysis, no, this is not how you’d receive a writing assignment. Sure, you might have a general direction about length, but generally you’ll go into it knowing your organization’s general framing or position on this legislation or regulation or issue. Also, policy work tends to be very collegial – in most organizations you’d probably have a few people bouncing ideas off one another, or at least have a short conversation about what you think about the legislation before starting to write about it.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You might need to write a policy brief or an analysis of how a piece of legislation or a new regulation would affect Thing X. And yeah, it would be normal to be told to keep it to 2-3 pages and not to be given a ton more guidance than “impact of X on Y” … but you’d have the advantage of knowing your organization’s context and what it will care about, etc.

      1. Bibliovore*

        As someone who teaches in a grad program. Please keep it to the assigned length. Not only will that hone your written communication skills for clarity and precision, I am never happy to see more than I had assigned.

  165. Emily M*

    I’ve been at my job for two weeks now and I’m having two issues which I’m not sure how to deal with. I would appreciate any advice. 1. I work with a manager who is located in a different city. He constantly acts like the sky is falling on every project and says things like “It sure doesn’t seem like you’ve made much progress”. The problem is that I have no idea what I’m supposed to be doing. I have told him this during every call. I’ve tried listing what I think I should be doing. I’ve tried asking explicitly for a list of steps. He always replies, “Just what we’ve been doing.” “Check your notes.” (which I’ve done, but we never covered certain tasks). How do I politely but firmly convey that I have no idea what to do.

    2. My managers have a habit of telling me they have a task for me in the morning, but then not finding time to tell me about it until it’s almost time to leave. I can tell they expect me to stay late to work on it, but this annoys me because I’ll have been sitting bored all day waiting for instructions. I don’t think it’s deliberate, but it feels like a lack of respect for my time. How do I communicate about this without seeming like I’m not a team player?

    Thanks for any help!

    1. EW*

      Have a big-picture conversation with your boss. Tell him what’s going on, along the lines of what you wrote here – describing the trends, not the particulars of one specific instance where this is happening. Basically, it sounds like you needs some more hands-on training and specific instructions for the projects you’re working on. Perfectly reasonable since you’re new. If he says “check your notes,” and you know you haven’t covered this topic, say so right then.

      And for your second question about timing: when you get the instructions late in the day, right then confirm that you’ve got it and are eager to get started, but will have to get it to you tomorrow since it’s already so late. Also, in the “big-picture” conversation, you should ask to get some ongoing projects that you can use to fill in your time in between these specific requests. Your boss may not realize that you have this kind of down time, for example.

      Good luck!

      1. Emily M*

        Thank you for the advice! I think I needed reaffirmation that it’s okay to need more detailed instructions. The ongoing projects suggestion is great, too! I won’t be as bored and they’ll know I’m ready for a bit more work.

  166. OnwardUpward*

    I work in a high school as a certified Teaching Assistant. When I was hired my job description was that I was to provide instructional support. Unbeknownst to me and several of my coworkers, our school district changed our job description and now Teaching Assistants are mainly supposed to provide behavioral and intervention support. Besides not getting any advance notice of this, the student population I am required to work with are Emotionally disturbed. These are students who really should be in a day treatment or mental health institution, or even jail to be frank. When I approached my superior about the lack of support from administration/change in job description she threatened to fire me.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      OMG. Behavior interventions have rules that must be followed. Will there be training in these rules? I guess I would say” we will need training because we would not want to be out of compliance with state regs”.

      Ugh. Knowing what I know of human service jobs, I would take the firing over jail time any day.

  167. BBBizAnalyst*

    Does anyone have any advice on how to deal with “mean girls” in the workplace? I started a new job at the start of this year. For the most part, I’m generally liked by nearly everyone in the office, praised for getting up to speed in a very short time and I’ve quickly become a point person on the client base I’m on. All sounds good right? Except there is an admin and two women who quasi-work with the team I’m on who treat me like CRAP! I find them to be very catty and after having lunch with them in my first few weeks, only to find that they say nasty things about everyone in the office, I immediately distanced myself. I came from a toxic workplace previously so that is a major HECK NO for me. I also found out that one of the girls (who I suspect is the ring leader) applied for the role that I was hired into but of course, did not get the job. (We posted for another opening on our team and she didn’t get it again). I did not know the former until I started so no clue what kind of dynamic I was getting into.

    Since I’ve distanced myself, they’ll leave me off of team meeting invites, go to my manager to ask him questions that they should be asking me (he redirects them back to me anyway) or the new thing that they do is they’re too busy to work on projects that I have been told to delegate to them. They don’t directly report to me but the work that they do is important to our team as we use it for client deliverables and in meetings with our Head Teapots.

    Normally, I wouldn’t pay mean girls any mind but we have to work together and when they pull stunts like saying they’re too busy to work on a project, I end up having to do it which creates a backlog of work for me. The good thing (?) is that my manager is typically copied on these emails (they copy him) so he does get a glimpse of their behavior but do you all think it’s worth bringing up? If I do, how on earth do I have this conversation? Do you all think it’s worth logging every time they do this? I like my job but my tolerance level for this behavior is very low after dealing with last job. I don’t want to let these women push me out of a great opportunity but I also recognize that my mental wellbeing is important and I simply do not want to engage.

    I cannot foresee continuing to pick up the work that they don’t want to do.. I end up having to staying late as they waltz in at 9:30am and waltz out at 4:30pm everyday. I feel like I’m in middle school and I’m about to be 30 dealing with this crap again.

    1. CAA*

      With regard to keeping a log of their behavior — definitely not. What would you do with it? If you go to your manager with “here’s a list of all the times these women picked on me”, you are going to look a bit obsessive and crazy.

      What you can do is the next time your manager asks you to delegate something to them, say something like “As you know from the emails they’ve sent us, they’re too busy to take on this work. Is there someone else I could delegate it to?” If the answer is no, then “I understand, but then I won’t be able to finish the project by the deadline. How would you like me to handle that?” Hopefully once he understands that they’re refusing all work from you, and not just occasionally, he’ll get involved in fixing the issue.

      Also, please stop calling them “mean girls”. Their behavior is unprofessional whether they are men or women, and honestly, I’ve seen plenty of men behaving badly in very similar ways. This mean girls stereotype hurts all the adult professional women in the workplace, including you.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Quit doing their work for them. Every time you do you reinforce their bad behaviors.
      Yes, it is worth bringing up. These people are work place bullies and they are undermining the business with their bullying.

      You bring it up by saying you have seen the behavior before and you are familiar with the characteristics. The behaviors that happen more than once are the easiest to identify and show examples of, so start with those behaviors.
      And it’s not that you have a low tolerance, it’s that you know what this is and where it goes.

      I would not log anything yet. See what the boss says. If you get no support from him then yes, start keeping a log so you can better describe what is happening.

    3. TootsNYC*

      I agree, quit doing their work for them. When they reply that they’re too busy, take it to your manager and say, “I really don’t have time to do this; can you step in here, and evaluate their workload? That’s beyond me, to adjust things to make space on their schedule for this, it needs you.”

      Or, “Boss, this is the third time they’ve left me off a team-meeting email. This is a loss of time and attention for me, it’s impacting productivity. Three times is not an accident. Would you speak with them? I have asked them nicely to be sure to include me, and it hasn’t been effective.”

      “Have you noticed that these people consistently interrupt you when they must be perfectly aware that I’m the one to ask. It’s a loss of your time and focus to have to just send them back to me, especially when they surely know they should come to me first. It’s happened several times, actually.”

      i.e., point out the pattern.

      And then say, “Are you seeing the same pattern I am?” And maybe, “I’m at a loss for how to handle this; I don’t have a full manager’s authority here.”

  168. Banking Greeters*

    This isn’t related to my work, but I’m hoping someone who works in banking can help me understand if this is actually a useful business practice: My bank (Chase) now has lobby staff (one or two people at a time) at my local branches who ask people in line what they’re there for, clearly so they can direct them to use the ATMs instead of talking to a teller. Every time I’ve encountered this, there is only one open teller and at most one person in line (out of 3-6) who can do what they need to do at an ATM. (I would love to use an ATM instead, but I’m only ever in the bank when I need rolls of quarters.) For anyone in banking, is this actually proving to be a useful/cost-saving practice? Is there a reason the staff doing this can’t move into the teller role when the line gets long?

    1. Marina*

      My bank does that as well, but to direct people to personal bankers rather than the ATM. For instance when I wanted to open an account for my kid, the teller wouldn’t have been able to do that for me and I would have been redirected anyway.

  170. Anon1234*

    May repost on Monday since it’s already getting buried here. We kind of covered this a few days ago. But how do you say in a job interview I left a job because I was being expected to do things (lie) that I was not comfortable with. Can I say “I was expected to lie and I felt uncomfortable?”

    I really, really loved the organization I was working for and the program, but my boss was toxic and poisoned EVERYTHING.

    (I won’t go into the whole long story. But my boss expected me to lie to cover her ass for a very inappropriate affair she was having. We’re talking naked pictures texted to her work cell phone, which I was often in possession of, because she gave it to me. I went to HR because it sqwicked me out so much, and I was basically told deal with it and keep lying)

    1. CAA*

      You have to give enough detail for the interviewer to know that this wasn’t a normal business practice. Sometimes people think things are wrong when they’re not. You could say something like “my manager wanted me to lie to her husband about an affair she was having with a co-worker and I wasn’t comfortable doing that.”

      1. Nobody Here By That Name*

        I don’t know if I’d get that far into the details. Revealing that it was about an affair means revealing personal information about the former boss. So it runs the chance of looking like OP is a gossip.

        If it was me I’d keep it more neutral. “My former employer asked me to lie about personal details and I wasn’t comfortable with that.”

        (Assuming you don’t feel comfortable with a more job interview style white lie, like saying the company’s future plans didn’t align with your career path, or some such.)

  171. new job anon*

    i recently accepted a new job (org1) and was interviewing right up until the offer and my background check cleared. i had 3 interviews with another place (org2), 1 phone, 2 skype. when i notified org2 that i was bowing out, i think they were disappointed. after asking if my decision was final and if there was anything that would change my mind, they asked if i would tell them what the position was that i accepted. i wasn’t sure this was a weird question so i asked around to some other people (because i wanted a really quick answer) and did end up telling them. but i was curious if the broader community thought this was an ok question. i didn’t hear back again from org2 after telling them.

    1. CAA*

      Yes, it’s pretty normal for them to ask. Some candidates decline to answer, but there’s usually no harm in providing the information. It can help them understand that they need to make better job offers or speed up their process.

  172. Tiffany*

    When an employer asks for a short letter about yourself, how do you approach it without going the route of a long cover letter?

    1. Marina*

      Sounds like a pretty standard cover letter to me? I’d go with 2-3 sentences summarizing your resume, a paragraph going a little more in depth about 1 or 2 of your most recent accomplishments, and a paragraph about how that relates to the job you’re applying for. I think Alison has mentioned this in the context of interviews, but usually when an employer asks you to tell them about yourself, they mean, “Tell me about your professional history” rather than your life story. :)

  173. Rick*

    Ooh, old open thread. No biggie, just want to talk about a little thing that bugs me.

    Is anyone else annoyed when recruiters ask you to pass them your friends/colleagues contact info?

    Now, don’t get me wrong. About 90% of the recruiters and agencies in my area are nice and professional. I just happen to be a software developer with both startup and financial experience, who lives in NYC. So I get tons of recruiter contacts. Usually 1-4 every workday. I reply to each of them cordially whether or not I’m interested.

    It just bugs me when they ask me to pass on my friends contact info. I’m fine doing that for recruiters I’ve established a professional relationship with, but when someone cold calls/emails me, I send off a polite “thanks but I’m not interested, best of luck on your candidate search” type of reply, and they ask me to please pass on any names/emails/numbers of anyone who has experience with X Y and Z, I get a little irked. Isn’t sourcing/finding candidates part of the recruiter’s job?

    I just find it annoying when someone asks me to do their job for them, during my workday (I pick up any calls I get as long as I’m not in a meeting, since I help look after some elderly relatives and want to make sure they’re okay just in case). Does that make me weird or no?

    1. Rick*

      Professional relationship being that I’ve had a pleasant experience working with them before. If I got an interview through a recruiter and didn’t get/take the offer, that counts as a positive relationship if we both handled everything well. If someone’s sent me on an interview and the position turns out to be completely outside my skill set (which I represent very accurately on my resume — I have no interest in wasting any vacation hours interviewing for a job I’m totally not suited/interested for), then they text me two months later asking me to please please apply for this job out in CT, even though they know I live deeeeeeep in Brooklyn, then nope.

      Sorry, I’m kvetching right now. My bad.

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