open thread – July 21-22, 2017

by Alison Green on July 21, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue :)

You may also like:
{ 1,665 comments }

{ 1,665 comments… read them below }

  1. hermit crab*

    Does anyone have recommendations for highly percussive music to listen to at work, to help drown out the sound of typing?

    I have an annoying misophonia-type response to the noise of typing – especially extended periods of fast, continuous typing. The noise makes me intensely irritable and anxious, my heart races, I feel like I can’t think or breathe, etc. etc. I know it’s all irrational/psychosomatic, but the symptoms are hard to ignore. I’ve had this issue for 10+ years, but it kind of comes in waves, and it’s particularly inconvenient at the moment because I’m sitting in an open office environment across from someone who types at full force pretty much all day long and her keyboard is about 18 inches from my ear. I am truly in awe of her typing abilities but they make me crazy!

    I’d prefer to avoid noise-cancelling headphones because I need to retain some awareness of what’s going on around me and look reasonably approachable. But my usual solution (playing white noise and pop music on my earbuds, at the same time) isn’t cutting it. I think a different kind of music might help, though. Sometimes a really percussion-heavy song comes on my radio stream and it’s pretty effective.

    Any suggestions (either for music or other strategies)?

    1. LucyUK*

      I find fast electronic stuff good for this – Venetian Snares are great, and I really like Tiasu as a producer at the moment. Techno/ambient techno might be good search terms if you’re using a streaming site like Spotify.

      1. Janine Willcall*

        I use getworkdonemusic.com– it’s just a stream of fast techno that blocks noise really well.

        1. NewBoss2016*

          Janine, you are my new favorite person today. I’ve been listening to the getworkdone website all day and it is working really well to drown out the loud office chats.

      2. hermit crab*

        Whoops, I should have specified that both Pandora and Spotify are blocked on our work network, for bandwidth reasons. (I usually listen to the livestream of a particular radio station.) But I like the idea of using Pandora or Spotify at home to identify things that might work!

        1. H.C.*

          How about personal mobile phone? A few carriers have data exemptions on streaming music (i.e. it won’t eat up your data usage, if you don’t have an unlimited plan), so it may be worthwhile to check with your plan.

          1. hermit crab*

            I actually still have an old-school cell that only does calls and texts. That’s a great suggestion for when I eventually get a smartphone, though, thanks!

              1. hermit crab*

                I have the kind with a slide-out keyboard and my dad refers to it as a “typewriter phone”!

          2. MashaKasha*

            Adding to H.C.’s comment – though it won’t work on an old-school cellphone, but thought I’d throw this out – I have setup playlists on Spotify that I can access when using Spotify in offline mode. Mostly I play them in my car, both on my work commute and road trips. They do not use up any data when accessed offline. Sadly, I cannot concentrate on my work with music in my headphones, so that’s not an option for drowning out undesired office noises for me personally.

      3. Anonomnomnom*

        Of all the blogs I read, this was the LAST one I expected to see someone mention Venetian Snares. +1 for VS being great work music if you need to block stuff out! Also Squarepusher is pretty all right as well.

      4. gingerblue*

        Digitally Imported is my go-to streaming service for work music. They have a large lineup of electronica styles, some of which are perfect for exactly this. (I can’t stand typing noise, either.) They’re niche-y enough that they might not be blocked?

    2. Alice Ulf*

      I’m not sure what sort of music you generally enjoy, but there’s a Scottish band called Albannach that relies pretty heavily on drums (er, warning for obligatory bagpipes, as well). You can find them on youtube.

    3. KellyK*

      I’m a big fan of gothic and symphonic metal, bands like Nightwish, Epica, and Delain. (Epica has a really awesome cover of the Imperial March that’s extremely percussion-heavy.) And Pandora is good for finding new music. (Blind Guardian just came up on my Pandora Nightwish station. I haven’t heard a ton of their stuff, but the song I heard seems to fit the bill.)

      As far as other strategies, could you talk to your boss about moving somewhere else, or whether you could snag a conference room or some other kind of space for an hour or two when you need a break?

      1. Jadelyn*

        Hey, fellow goth/symphonic metal fan here – I’d also recommend Within Temptation for that kind of thing, they’re my favorite of the genre.

      2. voluptuousfire*

        + 1

        @KellyK, As an aside, check out Tarot, Marco Hietala’s (Nightwish bassist) other band. More of a classic heavy metal sound. I’m a huge fan of Finnish metal–just went to my first Tuska open air metal festival a few weeks back in Helsinki.

    4. Stephanie*

      If lyrics don’t bother you, I’d say any mixes geared as a workout mix. Those are usually pretty beat/percussive heavy.

    5. leaf on the wind*

      I have no strategies, but I am personally a fan of Albannach, a Scottish pipe and drums band.

    7. Foreign Octopus*

      I’m not a fan of percussion heavy music but Spotify seems to have playlists for everything so it might be worth checking there.

    8. Falling Diphthong*

      Have you test-driven any noise cancelling headphones? I ask because I borrowed my husband’s on a plane trip and was really impressed–and the one thing they didn’t drown out was voices. I could hear words said nearby, not only on the loudspeaker, but the dull roar of the plane was gone.

      1. JustaTech*

        Agreed! On a flight I can still hear the flight attendant and some of the announcements, but the roar of the engines just goes away. Noise-canceling doesn’t really impact the range of human voices (so you’ll still need music or something to negate talking or crying babies).
        I don’t know if it would eliminate the tap-tap-tap of a keyboard. Since good noise-canceling headphones are expensive, maybe try to borrow a pair from a friend for a day before investing, to make sure they’d work for you?

    9. FDCA In Canada*

      There are a few websites that specialize in white noise that you can mix yourself to create the sound blend or background noise you are most interested in. I’m pretty sure you could find one that would be highly percussive! I will link a few in comments. Also, searching Youtube has a huge number of white noise loops in up to 10 or 12-hour videos, and a little digging might find you one that works.

        1. hermit crab*

          Oh, these look great, thank you! I have been using Simply Noise but that doesn’t have a lot of features.

        2. JulieBulie*

          mynoise.net is especially great because you can mix something you really like, customize it, and then buy like a one-hour mp3 of it.

    10. Jadelyn*

      If you like any kind of rock or metal, that would probably do it. Disturbed, The Birthday Massacre (which is more electronica-rock hybrid? I guess I’d call it?), Linkin Park, Nightwish, The Rasmus, Rise Against, Within Temptation. Just from a quick run through my faves playlist sorted by artist. You could also try dubstep, or you might like Lindsey Stirling, who does instrumental/techno with some really great beats to them.

      1. Lady Bug*

        Yep, if you like it metal is a great source of drumming. Search for thrash metal bands, Korn, Slipknot, Dream Theater in addition to the above suggestions.

    12. Admin of Sys*

      taiko drumming? Though that may be too similar to the typing sounds. Symphonic metal is nice, KellyK mentioned Epica, and there’s also symphonic covers of Metalica and such.

    13. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      With my misophonia, I’ve found that if I’m engaged in the music it’s more helpful than the type/volume of music. My own typing can drive me nuts and it would be hard to block that out so if my brain is following along with the music, I do better. Right now, I’m listening to the Harry Potter soundtrack which is one of my favorites for work but it takes time to find a few that work for you. Good luck!

      1. Anon today...and tomorrow*

        Agreed! I listen to a lot of Broadway cast albums and I find myself focusing on that rather than the person typing behind me. I’ve become so incredibly focused on the music that I completely tune out everything else. One of the women who works in the office here passed out due to the heat. I missed it all: the passing out, the call to 911, the arrival of the EMT’s and her removal from the building. It happened about 3 hours into my shift and I never heard a thing! I didn’t even know she was gone until the end of the day. (I sit in a far corner of the office so wouldn’t have been able to see any of the goings on, but despite the cubical farm we can hear everything!!!)

    16. Ryan Porter*

      For people who don’t know electronic music, they think “techno” to be a catch-all term. In actuality, techno is genre of electronic music that very percussive in nature with hardly any melody. That being said, there are tons of sub-genres and variations.

      I’d recommend going to Soundcloud where you’ll find infinite hours of techno tracks and dj mixes, where you can just click play and keep it in the background. Also look into the genre called “drum ‘n bass.”

    18. Purplesaurus*

      Lots of 80s music works surprisingly well for me (especially 80s punk like Joy Division, The Ramones, Talking Heads, etc.).

    19. Mike C.*

      Big name trance/house DJs often have 1-2 hour weekly podcasts. Above & Beyond, Paul van Dyk, Tiesto have them, as do several labels. You can easily have more music to listen to than you have time. That way you can fill up at home and have a constantly rotating set of music.

      If any of these sound good to you, I can direct you to others depending on your tastes.

    20. Cube Ninja*

      To add one I didn’t see in the comments, Digitally Imported (di.fm) is fantastic if you like electronic music in general. Agree that it’s super easy to drown out other unwanted sounds with a good beat, but I know it’s not everyone’s cup of tea. :)

    21. Lurker who knits*

      OP, you might have already tried these suggestions, so please ignore if this is nothing new.

      I don’t have first-hand experience with misophonia but do have pretty bad tinnitus. I recently went to an speech and hearing clinic, and they found a good treatment option. While I was there, I noticed that they also treat misophonia and auditory processing disorders. So, maybe a clinic could help you find some long-term options.

      If you go this route, ask in advance if they take your health insurance. This one didn’t, but since I’d already exhausted all my other options, I was willing to pay out of pocket for relief.

      There are also biofeedback options using breathing techniques to slow the heart rate, which, in turn, eases the anxiety (these are done as daily exercises and as situations arise). Biofeedback might not be the solution for you, but there are plenty of free and low-cost apps.

    23. Audiology Help*

      Go to see an audiologist! Try to find one with experience with noise plugs. If you explain what the bothersome noises are, they should be able to design a noise plug that de-emphasises the sounds that are bothering you. Some can even help you tackle the root cause of the misophonia-type reaction. Normally, we don’t like removing bothersome noises entirely since it can result in the annoying sounds becoming unbearable if you don’t wear the plugs, which is not great. However, this situation is pretty specific so the plugs should be fine as long as you only wear them at work. Cheers!

      1. Mike C.*

        Yeah, I know there are plugs out there that orchestra musicians wear to block out loud brass/percussion while being able to hear the rest of the group.

        1. Lurker who knits*

          I just got some! They are awesome. They drop all frequencies across the spectrum so balance is still accurate. I’m using the highest reduction (25 db), and it would be hard to hear soft speaking voices in an office environment. Smaller reduction amounts are available (9, 15) though.

      2. Marisol*

        how do you find an audiologist? Just a google search? and would these earplugs also help with annoying upstairs neighbors who stomp around?

        1. MillersSpring*

          Yes, you can find an audiologist through a Google search, or a referral from your doctor, or from an ear-nose-throat doctor (otolaryngologist). Audiologists fit and adjust hearing aids, so most communities have one.

        2. LabTech*

          and would these earplugs also help with annoying upstairs neighbors who stomp around?

          This was the bane of my existence until I moved to a top-level floor. (Why do people have to be so … clompy?) I didn’t know an audiologist recommended/custom ear plugs were even an option, so I’m glad you pointed out this potential application.

    25. Queen of the File*

      In case you want a break from heavier stuff, I love listening to classic samba and batucada. I’ve never tried to block out typing sounds with it but it’s normally very rhythmic and percussion-heavy. “Batucada: The Sound of the Favelas” is available on Spotify as a decent taster if you’re curious. Partyyyyy!

      1. N.J.*

        To Peggy back on those recommendations, reggaeton is a fairly repetitive percussive type of music experience and one of my favorites. If you don’t like repetitive OP I wouldn’t recommend it but I like it for darkening out work noise.

    26. NonProfit Anon*

      I didn’t know this was a thing! It can send me into pure rage when I hear someone loudly chewing. Usually I need to leave the room.

    28. kiwidg1*

      See if brain.fm is blocked. It does have a subscription fee, but I think it’s worth it.

    29. hermit crab*

      Thank you all so much for these suggestions! I will check them out when I get home. My tastes in music tend to run to quiet acoustic stuff so I didn’t even know where to start with this.

    33. Vandergaard*

      I’d recommend Noisli- it’s an app and a website (plus a chrome extension) and you can mix and match a variety of noises to get the affect you need. I use it religiously (my current fave is a mix of train sounds and rain) and it helps to drowns out noise (I suffer the annoyance of a coworker who is LOUD on the phone) but the best part is it also helps me focus my attention.

    34. Lauren*

      I’ve been listening to the Acts I-V albums by The Dear Hunter (II, IV, and V are my favorites) and they’ve been effective at helping me ignore all the jackhammering that is going on at the building site next door :p.

    35. afiendishthingy*

      I’m going to type every word I know! Rectangle! America! Megaphone! Monday! Butthole.

      All I have is that Ron Swanson quote and sympathy. I have inattentive ADD, anxiety, and apparently very good hearing. Typing noises don’t bother me too much luckily, but ticking clocks, this weird intermittent rattling noise the light fixture makes when the ac kicks on, and if people have the keypad sounds turned on while they’re texting (ahhhh!) make me want to scream.

    36. frog*

      I was a percussionist in middle school and high school, so unfortunately most of my percussion heavy music knowledge dates from the 90’s, and I’m not sure how easy it will be to track down some of these, but:

      Bakra Bata – Seattle-based steel drum group

      Oladum – Brazillian-based group, their 1993 album Movimento is fantastic, though your coworkers may be confused when you are spontaneously moved to get up and dance. It’s a risk worth taking.

      Mickey Hart – Planet Drum, featuring, among other artists, legendary Nigerian drummer Baba Olatunji. Any of his solo stuff is excellent too.

      Paul Simon – Rhythm of the Saints

      Moby – Play – an oldy but a goody, as well as many of his other albums.

    37. GreyNerdShark*

      Something completely different… Wauking songs. In Gaelic so the words don’t take over your head, with a strong repetitive beat. No idea if it will beat the typing, but this is my usual “clean the house” music. The songs are Gaelic women’s working songs for beating tweed. Call and response, apparently some very scurrilous verses about the local blokes. https://youtu.be/veMfxEEJ9VM

    40. OlympiasEpiriot*

      Well. I don’t know what it is like to have misophoonia, but I’ll offer some music ideas.

      In my spare time (yeah, right, like I have that) I am a drummer and I have a long list of music I like and my tastes are somewhat eclectic. So, here is a list of songs/pieces that come to my mind, take a listen to bits of them and see if you can make up a playslist for yourself. If there is a media player on your work computer (no internet needed for this), you can just have all of this on a thumb drive. Or burnt onto a cd/dvd if you have that. Or an ipod? Those are still floating around and I know people who put their own mp3s on them and didn’t buy from Apple.

      Gene Krupa (if he had been born 40 years later, he’d have been John Bonham,which of course leads to Led Zepplin) — w/ the Benny Goodman Band — “Sing, Sing, Sing” is a good example with clips on the web but it was a long song, like 8 minutes, but he was playing for decades and there’s a lot of work out there with him. He had his own band for a while in the 40’s.

      Glenn Branca’s “Ascension”. He is a composer (this is his first, you might check out 13th Symphony Hallucination City) who focuses on huge numbers of electric guitars, but there is always a percussionist and it is a focus. Be warned, the live stuff on YouTube is not a good format to listen, sounds get distorted beyond his planned distortion.

      Drum ‘battles’ between Buddy Rich and Max Roach, or Rich and Krupa, there’s whole albums, very rhythmic and musical.

      KMFDM, pretty much anything by them, but apropos of your question, see their album “Adios”.

      Runrig, a scottish band that can be a little cheesy, but when they are good, they are (to me) transcendent. Listen to “Alba” (pronounced aal-a-ba, gaelic for Scotland). They often sing in scottish gaelic, btw. (In fact, lots of Scottish bands might fit your needs, even Franz Ferdinand.)

      Delhi2Dublin, a canadian electronica band of Desi and Irish Diaspora musicians. So, Celtic and Bhangra…which means LOTS of drums. They are definitely high energy.

      Gente De Zona, from Cuba, reggaeton (“cubaton”, in their case), they were the collaborators on Enrique Iglesia’s huge hit “Bailando” with a fantastic video — worth watching even if not your usual music. Reggaeton as a genre might be good for you, lyrics in Spanish and Spanglish as a rule.

      Cumbia, as a genre. There’s an electronica cumbia artist called The Colombian Drum Cartel being a good example. It has a long history as a kind of music, might lead you to other things you like.

      Cosmic Baby, a German “Grandpa of Trance” artist from the mid 90’s.

      Olodum, an amazing Brazilian batucada band. You actually have probably heard them as they’ve collaborated internationally over the years. There’s also Timbalada, another fantastic group. Both of those would lead you to other performers.

      Best of luck.

  2. Amber T*

    I talked to both my boss and grandboss regarding adjusting my salary this week, and I’m sort of nervous about what the next step should be. I’m hoping you awesome people might give some advice!

    Basically, there are 15 layers of people to get through before I get to the people who actually make the decision about my salary (boss and grandboss can and will of course give input, but they don’t get the final say).
    – Boss is 100% on board (he also isn’t privy to my salary information – he just believes me when I say I feel underpaid).
    – I’m pretty sure grandboss is on board as well, but he holds his cards closer to his chest than boss does. Either way, he’s fair and reasonable, and I made a strong case to him. I came out of that meeting feeling really good.
    – Next is great-grand boss, who is also reasonable and fair, but I’m a bit more nervous about him. Grandboss gave me a lot of good insight on how to approach him, what to say, what to bring up, etc.
    – Once I talk to great-grand boss, and if he approves, he has to bring it to all of the partners, which will be tricky. One, I’m not sure if I’d even be a part of that meeting, and two, trying to get them all together is pretty much impossible. They set aside time every year in early December to talk about everyone’s salaries, raises, and bonuses. Grandboss also said he’s never seen anyone get a salary adjustment mid year. It’s not out of the question, and if I feel super strongly about it I should try, but it might not happen until December anyway. In any case, he said I should definitely try to have a meeting with great-grandboss end of October/beginning of November to make my case if I don’t want to do it now.

    So, I’m kind of torn. On the one hand, we just finished a huuuuge project that I played an important part in and I got a lot of positive feedback from internal and external sources, which is awesome, so I feel like I have strong momentum. On the other hand, it’s never been done before mid year, and while no one is saying it *can’t* happen, most of our upper members are pretty set in their ways with their routine. Regardless, I’m definitely bringing up the conversation at some point. The question is just, when?

    I should also say that my company is very generous and I’ve been mostly happy with it. My job title changed last year, along with a crazy amount of responsibilities (and I became ineligible for overtime), but my salary really didn’t change. After talking with grandboss, it seems it may have been an oversight sort of? Also, other than Glassdoor, where should I look for comparable salaries? I’ve checked out numerous job postings of the same or similar job titles at similar institutions, and literally none of them are posting salaries.

    1. EleonoraUK*

      Just something that stood out to me – it seems kind of unusual that you’re having to make your case all the way up the chain. In the companies I’ve worked at, it was normal to make the case with your manager and maybe your manager’s manager, who would then take it up the chain for sign off (or not) if they agreed with you. It also strikes me as unusual that your boss and his/her boss don’t know what your salary is. Your company seems to have a very different process to what I’ve seen. (For what it’s worth, my experience is in the UK, so perhaps this is perfectly normal in the US, but thought it worth mentioning.)

      1. Amber T*

        Don’t I know it. For the most part, my division is pretty lateral – everyone reports directly to my grandboss. While I refer to him as my boss (and he’s the one who delegates my work to me, who I check in with regarding vacation/sick days, etc.), he doesn’t hold all of the boss functions. The partners decide the compensation for everyone, from the admins to the higher levels (including, I’m guessing, themselves?). Going to my boss and grandboss was “unnecessary” in the sense that they don’t get a say and presumably I could have gone straight to great-grandboss (who is one of the partners), but this is only my second job out of college and my first corporate job (and the first time I wanted to bring up/discuss a raise), so I wanted their perspective as to what should be done.

        But yes, I’ve come to realize my company is kind of bizarre in its hierarchy.

    2. Emily S.*

      For salary comparison research, Payscale.com seems very good. I’ve used it in the past and it seemed like the information was good.

      Re: your larger question about when to approach the higher-ups — sorry I can’t help much here. I’m super-non-confrontational, so I would probably wait until October. But I don’t know, it may be worth trying before that, since it does seem like an oversight.

      1. Amber T*

        Thanks for the recommendation! I’ll definitely check it out.

        I’m super non-confrontational too… it took a lot of work for me to even broach the topic with boss/grandboss. I need to do more research, but because of the oversight and the fact that I seem to be making FAR below the standard compensation, that’s why I’m contemplating doing it now. There’s a part of me that says just wait for October/November, but I can’t tell if that’s my logical voice or my anxiety voice talking.

      2. Natasha*

        I like pay scale. Their estimate was 20% more than glassdoor. But maybe I just have one of those titles with more variation than usual.

    4. Zinnia*

      For some fields there are salary surveys put out by recruiters. Take it with a grain of salt and all, but I’ve found the Robert Half accounting/finance one to be in the ball park in my region. They also do one for IT fields.

    5. Thinking Outside the Boss*

      Your office sounds like a typical law firm structure, and for the partner meeting, I would be shocked if you were part of the discussion. At most they would have you make a quick presentation and then leave. Once you talk to your great grand boss, your raise is no longer your water to carry.

      For meeting with the great grand boss, if you can get access to salary information to see where you are in the market, and if you’re at the low end of the market, then you’ll have a lot stronger argument then it you don’t. If you can’t find any useful salary information, all is not lost.

      You mentioned that after the title change, your salary “really didn’t change” but you took on a “crazy amount of responsibilities.” I take this to mean that you did get a raise but the raise was nominal in comparison to all the other duties they required you to do. For your meeting, you need to be very specific in making your pitch, such as “you increased my salary by $2,000 a year but you gave me 7 new duties that now take up 24% of my workweek [or cause me to work an extra 15 hours per week].” Something to that effect. And if they really didn’t give you a raise, you need to be that specific too.

      I’m assuming that your old job title came with pay that was at mid-market rates or below market. Because if your old job’s salary was above market, then getting new duties wouldn’t really justify a raise, it would justify the amount they’re currently paying you. It would be helpful to know how your old job compared to the market.

      Also, your request may fall victim to office politics. From what you posted, you definitely have earned a raise now instead of in 6 months or so when annual salaries are discussed. But the other partners may be thinking that if they do it for you, everyone else will want a raise too so they will deny it for that reason. Or if the partner earnings operate on a percentage of profits, I’ve seen partners reject a raise for an employee just to get an extra $400 from the profit pool, regardless of the fact that $400 is pocket change to the partner. Not all people in charge do what’s best for their employees.

      Best of luck to you and definitely keep us posted on the results!

      1. Amber T*

        Thank you so much for your response!

        From what I understand, raises are pretty much always given every year (even during the recession, which was before my time here, everyone still got something). The raise I received right before my promotion (I was promoted in Feb, raise hit in Jan right before) was the same amount that I had been raised the year before. I had (very timidly) asked if my promotion also included a raise in salary, and was told my raise had already been given in January. Because I was still relatively new to the work force (4 years in) and this was my first promotion ever, I didn’t push back and just accepted it.

        To be honest, I was in a weird limbo between job responsibilities for a few months before and after my official promotion, and I think that’s why I sort of just accepted it. But now I’ve fully embraced my new role and have been good at it. So I feel like I should have pushed back a bit more last December/January regarding my raise, but I’ll chalk it up to inexperience. I was also pretty well paid in my previous position, so I think that was part of the “oversight.”

        I also just briefly spoke to my boss and mentioned that I had spoken to grandboss and was considering setting up a time for great-grandboss and all of us to speak. While he fully agreed, he mentioned waiting until September at least to bring it up. So… I guess I’ll be waiting.

      2. Amber T*

        Also to clarify – the role changed drastically. I started off as reception/admin, and I was promoted into a specialized field. I had been working with my now-boss in an unofficial capacity (my job duties were phone, filing, general admin, then the footnote “other duties as required” – sort of fell under there). So I used to do maybe 75% reception/admin and 25% this field under my old title, but once I was promoted, it changed to 90% this field/10% reception, and now at 0% reception (they had been telling me they’d promote me for quite a while once they hired someone into my old position, which took months). Looking back it all seems very complicated.

        1. MillersSpring*

          To me, one of your main arguments should be that when they made you ineligible for overtime but kept your salary at roughly the same level, that means they decreased your overall compensation and quality of life.

          1. Thinking Outside the Boss*

            Great point! I missed that on the first read.

            My sister just had this same experience. She converted from hourly employee to salaried at a higher pay level. However, once she calculated her prior overtime into the mix, she’s making about the same. And now that the company doesn’t have to pay her for additional hours worked, she works an extra 10-15 hours a week.

    6. Coming Up Milhouse*

      If it cannot be decided until December, you may have better luck asking for an increase retro to the day you started the process of asking for an increase.

      It provides a nice little bonus check too!

    7. designbot*

      I’m in a similar situation–I got a promotion last year (actually two, because we have two different axis for titles here, think Director of Teapot Handles plus Associate), but only a cost of living raise, explained as being a result of low profits last year. My strategy is to wait until the next cycle and pitch it as hey, I was understanding last year, but I cannot go two years of being uncompensated for this increase in responsibility so it’s time to do what you couldn’t do last year. I can only cross my fingers that I’m going about it the right way, but my company seems to have a culture of promoting after you show you can do the work, so I’m trying to acknowledge and roll with that.

    8. Chaordic One*

      I’ve previously used a website called “Compensation Cafe.” It seemed accurate when I used it, but I can’t say if it is still any good.

  3. not so super-visor*

    Looking for some input to help me put thins in perspective: a direct report recently came to vent to me. Her daughter (works for a totally different company) was recently let go from her job. The reason: she had filed for FMLA due to severe complications with her pregnancy, but she learned (while being fired) that her OB/GYN office had never completed the forms. I’m not in HR or work with FMLA in any way, but I think that she was just looking for a sympathetic ear. Oddly enough, I had a similar issue with our HR over another employee’s (DR2) FMLA request. That story is that HR notified me that I would need to let go DR2 on Monday due to her FMLA forms not being completed. Upon probing with our FMLA admin, I discovered that the Dr’s office had sent in incomplete forms. The admin was somewhat evasive when I asked if she had followed up with the employee, so I assumed that she hadn’t. (Maybe overstepping here but I hated to lose this employee) I reached out to DR2, and she said that no one had notified her that the forms were incomplete. She reached out to her Dr’s office, and we had the completed forms in 1 hour. The HR decision was over-turned, and she kept her job.

    My question: is this normal? Do HR or FMLA admins normally not reach out to employees who are filig for FMLA to let them know that they don’t have complete documentation? At my employer at least, they have to fill out a form with the FMLA admin prior to asking the Dr’s office to send in paperwork. That way the FMLA manager can approve or deny whether the claim is even valid and HR is aware that someone is filing. I just don’t understand the lack of follow-up, especially when people’s jobs are on the line. Am I misunderstanding the employee’s responsibility in this? Am I way off base?

    1. BadPlanning*

      Yeah, that either sounds fishy (backdoor to getting rid of someone) or a misinterpretation of don’t ask employees invasive medical question.

    2. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I would think it’s ultimately the employee’s responsibility to confirm with HR that everything is in order, but it’s a jerk move for HR not to give them a heads-up if they’re missing something.

      2. Artemesia*

        She didn’t know until she was fired that it was incomplete. I know in any job I have every done I don’t want people nagging me to ‘confirm’ something was complete when it had been filed. If it wasn’t, it was up to me to indicate I couldn’t proceed without form Z being completed.

        Really a jerk move and with a pregnant woman where the obvious conclusion would be they are trying to fire her for being pregnant. What other conclusion would a rational person draw?

        1. Pineapple Incident*

          Yeah, I feel like daughter would have a nice case against the doctor or the company for a law suit, considering she lost wages here with their negligence (both parties). Someone should have told her that there was an issue, and the company should have mentioned that her FLMA paperwork was never received

        2. Katie the Fed*

          And when you’re dealing with FMLA you’re usually overwhelmed with dealing with dozens of insurance companies and all that fun too. It’s easy to lose track of things.

      3. Anony*

        It seems like denying FMLA due to incomplete forms might be reasonable (jerk move but I can see it happening) but firing them because the doctor filled out the paperwork wrong? That’s terrible!

        1. L Dub*

          But she should have at least received a denial of FMLA due to incomplete forms. (I’m certainly not saying she did receive them, but that the employer or TPA should have issued them.)

    3. Murphy*

      My HR office kept me appraised of the situation along the way. I received notification that I was approved PENDING completed forms from my doctor (there was a deadline for this). Then I received notification that the doctor’s forms were received. Then I received notification that they doctor’s forms were processed and that I was officially approved. I can only assume that I would have been notified had the forms not been received on time or if they’d been incomplete.

      1. Aitch Arr*

        Yup.

        This has been my experience both as an employee taking/requesting FMLA and an HRBP.

      2. One of the Annes*

        This was my experience too. The HR departments you (OP) describe sound totally incompetent.

    4. Eppie*

      My office let me know when the forms were not completed in time. Let me know, as in “We are denying your claim” and told me why when I probed. So not exactly forthcoming, but not hiding it when questioned.

    5. neverjaunty*

      No, that is not normal, and at best the HR people involved are lazy. Obviously the employee doesn’t know what the doctor’s office is sending over; how hard is it to say “Hi, we need you to get us X and Y by Friday because your doctor’s office did not send the complete information”?

      1. RVA Cat*

        Yes, but that doesn’t make sense if it’s more work to fire somebody than to follow up on the paperwork….

        1. neverjaunty*

          We all know people who will make more work for themselves later rather than do work now….

          But my money would be on wanting to push the employee out and using paperwork as an excuse. I wonder if the doctor’s submission was even incomplete.

          1. paul*

            but why would HR want to push this person out? it sounds like they’re not-so-super’s direct report, and not-so-super says they’re good. Do office politics get that cutthroat?

              1. blackcat*

                +1
                Almost the exact same thing happened to a friend. She successfully proved she did everything right, got FLMA for maternity leave approved. Then projects were reassigned/not given to her upon her return. Then she was fired for not doing enough billable hours. This happened in 2014, in Seattle.

                I also have a friend who worked in state government for a liberal female politician who was fired “for losing paperwork” as soon as she started appearing pregnant (she is tiny, had a history of loss, and showed early, so was waiting to tell.) This happened last year.

            2. Mike C.*

              Yeah, lots of neanderthals see pregnant women as little more than a burden and a flight risk in the work place.

              If I were that young woman, I would consider a legal consultation. This is incredibly sketchy.

            3. Paul*

              well, those are depressing answers. TGIF, and TG for whiskey.

              Man :/ maybe my wife and I have been luckier than I realize in the working world

    6. LCL*

      Wow, the two examples you gave are displays of either incompetence or evil. Here, if you don’t get all of your FMLA paperwork in, the person at HR in charge of it keeps hounding you until you do. They keep management out of it as much as possible, only contacting management when they can’t reach the employee. Our HR is very skilled at these types of leave compliance issues.

        1. Alli525*

          I used to think that was an oxymoron, but the last 6 months have been a touch exhausting…

          1. KellyK*

            To make a Dungeons & Dragons analogy (because everything can be explained in terms of geeky RPGs), your alignment has no impact on your skill modifiers, and vice versa.

            1. RVA Cat*

              This. But is it their INT or their WIS that’s the dump stat?
              Pretty sure morale reflects their low CHA though….

    7. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      I cannot imagine how HR didn’t notify the employee that the forms were incomplete. It seems like such a typical part of the process. Sure, the employee should confirm as well, but if the employee asks if the document was received and HR says yes, how is the employee to know that the form was insufficient? I never saw the documents my doctor sent to my HR when I used FMLA. It was an electronic transfer and I simply confirmed that they had been received.

      1. Stranger than fiction*

        Yes, it’s like if one employee complained about another employee and then they fired him or her without even asking their side of it. Only here, I would think there’s some possible legal issue the employer is at risk for? Like wouldn’t it be wrongful termination if it was investigated? Or discrimination?

        2. Jessie the First (or second)*

          It violates the law to NOT notify an employee that the medical certification is not complete and to NOT give them a chance to fix it (they need to have 7 calendar days to fix).

          So, yeah, just firing them without ever telling them there is a problem? Major issue there.And the employer would absolutely have pretty significant legal risk.

          1. Kinsley M.*

            This was what I was coming to say. As the HR person who does the FMLA administration at my company, this makes no sense to me. It’s not even like it’s hard. The Federal Government literally supplies the forms that you have to send.

    8. Malibu Stacey*

      My company outsources the FMLA & disability and that company sent me *triplicate* notices by mail when my claim was received, accepted pending dr. paperwork, accepted, & when I returned to work.

      1. Nicole T.*

        +1 to this. Our company uses Unum, and you can do it all online or over the phone. They keep calling you and the dr. to get info as needed. I have used them twice (for two related surgeries) and it was easy peasy.

    9. Jadelyn*

      No, this is not normal – maybe more common than it should be, but not *normal* and definitely shouldn’t be normalized. The HR people in these cases were being lazy jerks and just not bothering to do their damn jobs. Our HR manager handles LOAs and I’ve seen her hound the hell out of people who haven’t gotten completed paperwork back in.

      Ideally, the employee should also be following up with both HR and doctor’s offices to make sure stuff is all settled, but if they don’t, HR staff absolutely should be stepping in to follow up on it.

    10. Nan*

      We have a due date, but if the doctor is being slow, they employee can ask for an extension. It’s up to the employee. HR is not going to chase paperwork to help you. If the paperwork is incorrect/incomplete, HR will let the employee know, and there is a time limit to fix it. Usually 3 days.

      I think HR should let the employee know if something is missing/incorrect/incomplete. Employees generally don’t fill out the forms on a regular basis and won’t know if something is wrong.

      1. Benefit...AND MORE!*

        This. And after those 3 days ( I’ve administered FMLA in companies that allowed up to 7 days), if the paperwork is still missing or incomplete, the absences can be classified as unexcused and then the termination process begins.

        FMLA is 100% employee burden of proof.

        1. Duncan*

          The law allows 7 days for the employee to have incomplete forms corrected. The key is the employee has to be notified that they are incomplete.

    11. Observer*

      I can’t speak to how normal this is, but it sounds to me that in your org, it’s normal to reach out. I say this because if no one ever is expected to reach out the admin would have been far less likely to be evasive as she has nothing to hide, from her perspective.

    12. Anna*

      This might be worth your DR daughter following up with the labor board. It sounds fishy AF and it’s worth getting absolute clarification on it just to be sure.

    13. paul*

      My wife’s HR reached out to her when she did FMLA stuff for pregnancy both times because her OBGYN messed up the forms.

      Is there someone you can talk to about your HR doing that? It isn’t like the person screwed up their own form even. It’s been a few years since we filed for FMLA (thank goodness) but I don’t think I ever saw those forms after giving themt o the doctor; the doctor filled them out then faxed them to our office when I had to take FMLA for surgery and I think my wife’s went the same way. It seems amazingly crappy to fire someone because their doctor didn’t cross the t’s and dot the i’s.

    14. Jessie the First (or second)*

      So, that is sketchy and best and actually not legal at worst. There are regulations about how employers have to handle incomplete paperwork, and other regulations about what notices employers have to give employees who apply for FMLA leave. And just… firing someone without first telling that that the person’s FMLA is incomplete or denied (because that’s what they are doing, basically – denying the leave because of incomplete forms and then firing because the person isn’t at work) is a problem.

      The employer HAS to tell the employee the paperwork is incomplete. (Link to follow)

      So no, that is not normal and not okay. And you should talk to your FMLA admin to make sure she gets a Whole Lot Better about communicating problems with FMLA paperwork!!

      2. Jessie the First (or second)*

        Okay, well, the link didn’t make it out of moderation. But – search for the Dept of Labor fact sheet on this. The DOL states explicitly that employers *have to* notify an employee in writing if the FMLA paperwork is incomplete. There is real exposure to liability for not following the regulations here. (I mean, sure, they may never get investigated by DOL, and they may never get sued by an angry fired employee – but it is a real risk, and the legal requirements for FMLA are pretty specific here.)

    15. Really*

      Not normal or abnormal. But becoming very common place. Everyone involved failed. Too often it’s I’ve done my part (made the request) and it’s forgotten till there’s a problem. You can not assume everyone/anyone has done what they should have.

      1. Springsteen is My Favorite Boss*

        I’m now on FMLA while recovering from a major surgery two weeks ago. When I gave my surgeon my company’s FMLA and short-term disability leave forms last month, I asked his office to send me a copy. Sure enough, the forms were incomplete. I quickly called both my company’s disability administrator and doctors office to make sure the forms were completed. On Monday the company disability administrator sent me another form for my doctor to complete and send to them. I need to call the surgeon about that one soon. I understand doctors may not always have complete information for FMLA forms — for instance, my doctors and I were waiting for biopsy results which finally came through yesterday.

        But to make an incomplete FMLA form a fireable offense? SMH.

    16. Managing to get by*

      It’s very common for doctor’s to not fill out the paperwork, or to take forever to get it done. It is the employee’s responsibility to ensure the proper documentation is submitted. Our FMLA administrator will send out a notice when the claim is filed and state a due date for documentation, and will send out a notice a few days ahead of the due date stating if the documentation had been received. I also remind my employees it is their responsibility to be sure the doctor completes the forms. Employees usually have to call their doctor a few times. If a claim gets denied due to lack of documentation, it can also get reopened once the documentation is received.

      I’d never fire someone for a doctor not completing the forms on time. I can see my company possibly firing someone if the documentation received from the doctor indicated the employee was not being honest about their condition however (I have heard of people lying about having a surgery to get time off work for instance), but not for a paperwork delay.

    17. The Rat-Catcher*

      I work for state government and this would be really crappy. I don’t think HR would get in trouble per se, but word would get around and probably some kind of official follow-up policy would be instituted for the HR folks. Especially if your doctor’s office is insisting on communicating directly with HR as some of them do – then it really would be on them to communicate with you if something were missing.

  4. BRR*

    I wanted to get a feel for how common this is. I work in a development department of around 14. We’re hiring for what will basically be a second in command and are using a search firm. The search firm and our VP of development conducted first round interviews at the firm’s office and I found out recently that the firm recommended second/final round interviews happen at their office as well and candidates would only meet the department if they ask. This is only a recommendation and there is no plan in place yet.

    This would mean that the candidates will not meet anybody in the department they’re working with, the people they would be managing, or see our office. I told our VP that I would prefer to meet the candidates and think that the candidates should get to meet us so they know if this job is a good match. I’m not sure exactly the reasoning behind us not interviewing the candidates and was told that they know what we’re looking for because we have all met with the VP about what our department needs and that we all provided input for the job description (which is true).

    Is this common? I’ve never heard of this before and feel like it could be a potential disaster (my organization is toxic and this position is going to have a huge impact on my work life).

    1. Attractive Nuisance*

      It does sound off to me for a FTE hire — would you really want to hire an director of development who didn’t insist on meeting some of the people this person would be managing?

    2. Lora*

      It’s common at organizations that have crappy senior management. ExJob used to do this and ended up hiring and promoting a couple of guys who, if they had bothered to ask the worker bees who were to be managed by these ding-dongs, could have told them a laundry list of Why This Is A Terrible Idea. Good senior management generally wants people to know what they are getting into and wants to make sure most people will be happy-ish.

    3. k.k*

      I can’t speak to how common it is, but I can tell you that I would never accept a job where I hadn’t met anyone I’d be working with. There is no way to tell if it’s going to be a good fit for you that way. There are likely so great candidates you’re missing out on because they see this as a red flag.

    4. NPOQueen*

      It seems like you have a pretty small shop, but I wouldn’t be too worried. When we replaced our head of Advancement, we didn’t get to meet the candidates either, we only met the final candidate. I do want to say that I think we met the candidates for Provost before they were hired, but that’s a much bigger role at a university.

      Now, if your organization is toxic, that’s another story. I wouldn’t worry about not meeting the candidate, but I would worry about the VP’s choices (if they have proved unreliable in the past). Is the new person going to be your direct supervisor? I’ve interviewed those types before, but my experience is that the higher up they are, the less visible they are. In my area, it was because they didn’t want it to get back that the candidate was interviewing, but I can’t speak to your specific situation. All you can do now is welcome the new person with an open mind, and see how it goes.

    5. bleh*

      I work for a fairly large institution in development and when we have done searches for very high level positions (unit directors and now we are in the middle of searching for the equivalent of a VP of Advancement) they’ve all been held very close to the chest with direct staff not knowing much before the entire organization reveal. One group I work with recently hired a director this way and my colleague there told me all the upper managers got to do a group session where they asked questions, but I think this may have been after he was selected (before the announcement), not during the interview process. It is weird as you say and I don’t think it’s great practice but I think it’s common at a high level.

      1. kittymommy*

        I don’t think I’ve worked anywhere that candidates have been introduced to staff.

    6. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      My last job let it be pretty-much manager/department dependent. My first boss made sure to walk the candidates around or group-interview, the second didn’t do it nearly as much.

    7. Annabelle Lee*

      My current company does this. We hire senior (director level) managers who never meet their potential staff unless they ask to. My current manager was hired like this. While it’s turned out fine, we’ve all lost alot of respect for his manager and the Human Resources director who also though this was a good idea.

    8. sarakg*

      We are also in the process of hiring a developer manager, who would be the direct boss of all the developers, and direct report of our current boss (CTO). Once they were pretty close to being decided, we all got to meet the candidate, ask lots of questions, have a good chat about process etc.

      It wasn’t so much an officially open position, but through some various circumstances, a good candidate came up and they were open to creating the position. The position’s needed (my current boss wears way to many hats around here, he needed someone to take at least 1 hat away), and the candidate is a good fit for a bunch of reasons.

      However, we all found out that they made an offer before hearing all of our feedback. Which is a bit frustrating, but not surprising… Offer hasn’t been accepted yet, but we’ll see.

    9. Optimistic Prime*

      I wouldn’t even want that as a junior FTE; meeting some of my future coworkers was one of the major factors in my decision to work here. I can’t imagine a good, competent VP signing on to manage an organization whose people they haven’t met or space they haven’t seen AT ALL.

  5. Sunflower*

    I received mixed reviews during my performance review. Everything from ‘I don’t trust Sunflower to do my events’ to ‘Sunflower is an amazing worker and is very knowledgeable’.

    My director then acknowledged that she thinks a lot of the reviews were based on my former boss who, while being a nice person, was not good at her job and it caused me to suffer. This has now left me in a state of feeling like I need to relearn everything I’ve been taught in the past 2 years that I’ve been here. A manager in the same role, who manages a different region and actually does the job right, is going to go through my questions with me but it feels impossible to query about everything.

    I also am feeling anger at both my old boss and grandboss. Grandboss told boss to give me more high-level work as early as 4 months into my job and my boss for over a year until grandboss told her to do it or else. Angry with grandboss for letting me spend 2 years here doing my job incorrect and not having the chance to be corrected. I’m a people pleaser and have a fear ppl dislike working with me so this review is tough to deal with.

    Overall, grandboss thinks I have a ton of potential and that this year could be a great year for me. She barely spent any time discussing the negative comments and the company is going to pay for additional training and certs for me. Many of the comments also instructed me to take more of a leadership role (my boss made me believe I was more so assisting her as opposed to leading)

    I should feel confident going forward but I can’t shake the feeling that everyone dislikes working with me. I’m still not even sure how to interpret the review. Any advice on anything I touched on in this post?

    1. not so super-visor*

      That stinks. You have every right to be ticked at old boss. I think that the best thing that you can do is to just focus on what you can do going forward since you can’t change the past. Did the director give you any suggestions on what they’d like you to improve on or what you can focus on?

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      The best bosses, when presenting peer review feedback, will tell you things like:
      * “Several of your peers mentioned X. I don’t see this as an issue with your work at all, but there’s an easy fix of Y that will help how you’re perceived with regard to X.”
      * “Several of your peers mentioned X. This is clearly a problem that was caused by the way OldBoss managed you. We won’t worry about that moving forward.”

      Or they’ll tell you “this is a real issue that you need to work on.”

      And at the end of the review, they should have an overall conclusion, like “We’ll work on X, Y, and Z in the coming year, but you’re doing a great job overall and you’re on track for a promotion by next August,” or “you’re doing a satisfactory job overall, but these things need to be worked on in order for you to advance any further in the organization.”

    3. Jadelyn*

      That is so awful, I’m sorry you got sabotaged like that. The good news is, your grandboss is helping you to move forward from it!

      And honestly, at worst, people might be frustrated and a bit wary about working with you, not disliking you personally. The best way to help assuage that wariness is with a ton of communication. It’ll take some time to fix your reputation, which sadly was damaged by your crappy old boss, but it can be done! Be scrupulously conscientious with things going forward, communicate frequently with the people you’re working with so they know and can see for themselves that you’re on top of things, and just give it time. And, people aren’t entirely ignorant – if they see a big difference between Sunflower-with-old-boss, versus Sunflower-on-their-own, they’ll probably reach the conclusion that the boss was the problem.

    4. NPOQueen*

      On the one hand, this review has obviously shaken you and left you without much direction. On the other hand, they are offering valuable training and certifications, so your company is saying they like you enough to invest in you.

      Who is your boss now, the director? What will help know is clarity and consistency, because mixed reviews are indicating that you did very well on some events and not so well on others. Can your boss give you any advice on what you did right over the last year? If you’re heading you should take more leadership and you’re in event planning, that might mean that people want you to come more fully prepared to their meetings. It’s hard for me to say more without knowing more of what you do, but when I was in event planning, every event had a form to fill out to determine the overall goals and direction. If your coworkers see you working hard, their opinions will change, but someone likes what you’re doing. Concentrate on that.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      For a bad situation, you are in a pretty good spot. You have the support of your new boss and your grandboss is paying closer attention.

      I have told people, “We are going to fix this and it will be okay.” Getting the person to stay with me is HARDER than the actual fix. And that is because it requires the person to have some blind faith in my words. Once the person buys into fixing things, life gets much simpler.

      My vote is give them a chance. I don’t know, maybe 6 months? Let’s say give it six months and see if it still appears as bad as it does right now.
      To your advantage, you sound like a sincere person who is trustworthy and wants to do a good job. If I can pick up on that from a post then probably your bosses are picking up on this also.
      So yes, it will be a bit rocky at first. With each week that goes by it should get a little better. Maybe you can psych yourself up to doing one week at a time, “Well, let me see how this week goes and what I think on Friday.”

      As far as what the problems are and to what degree, decide to remain calm. People with a bigger picture view have decided that you will probably get through this. This is not much different than a doc telling you that your broken arm will indeed heal, but, dang! that arm sure hurts right now.

      Where to start. Start with known problems. Fix the stuff you know about. Typically what happens is on the way to fixing Known Problem A, you will realize, “Oh I need to fix this and this also.” So fix those two additional things then move to Known Problem B. And then, “Oh crap, I also need to fix that and that over here.” Okay this is getting annoying. The answer is to ride it out. Go fix those two other things then move to Known Problem C. Keep going. Consider getting extra rest at night because this does get tiring, but you can win this one.

      As far as other people’s complaints. You may have opportunities to apologize, if you feel an apology would be appropriate/helpful. But sometimes just changing what you are doing is enough to satisfy some folks. They are so happy that you changed that in their minds the issue is over, it’s in the past.
      Annnd sometimes I tend to believe that if X was such a problem why didn’t Bob just come over and tell me X is a problem. I don’t buy into helplessness very well. You may find that you will have opportunities to say, “Is this everything you need on this?”, or similar question as an effort to open up conversation.

      I am optimistic for you. I hope you can kick Negative Nancy out of your brain and give this a shot.

    6. Anon for This*

      I’m in a somewhat similar situation, although I haven’t actually gotten any negative feedback (yet?). I was promoted last year to report to an incompetent VP. She left, and our CEO is serving as interim VP for our area. We keep discovering things I was supposed to be doing but was never told about, or goals that were set for me that were never communicated, and so on. Fortunately, I think it’s clear to our CEO that the problems lie with the former VP but ugh. Every meeting ends up being all about how I (and the VP’s other direct reports) aren’t doing what we are supposed to be doing.

    7. Mme Marie*

      I recently went through a (mostly anonymous) 360 style review with my coworkers on my team, in my business line, managers, and 2 up managers – people on my own team scored me 1 (bad) and 5 (great) regarding the same topic. It was really tough to figure out how to deal with those 1 scores.
      For me it’s impossible to completely dismiss negative feedback, but with a lot of positive feedback on the same topics as the negative – I’ve just had to realize that there are people who’ve had different experiences with me & my work. They might be wrong about my abilities, or we had a bad interaction at some point, but the only thing you can really do is take it with a grain of salt, figure out if there’s anything that could be improved there & do it, remind yourself that work is work and the outside world is way more meaningful, and continue to do your job to the best of your abilities.

      1. Jesca*

        Uhg I hate 360 reviews. They are just the worst. We would all like to believe that most people are objective, free thinking individuals capable of providing feedback sand personal feelings in regards to your work, but I have not personally meant many who are willing. You don’t have to like someone to respect their roles, abilities, and contributions, but a lot of the time people cannot see past themselves far enough to be objective on this front. “Oh Sally likes to laugh and joke, and that is just sooooo not professional to me!” thought process is definitely going to come out in a review if the person is not objective in their thinking. I would never put much credence on these things as its call contextually based interactions with people who can be pretty flippant about how they feel about you, your work, and your contributions on any given day. Not everyone is cut out to manage and provide constructive feedback, and should not even be given the opportunity to have a *vote* in someone’s review. I mean a manager can ask employees how they feel, but it is up to the manager to give context and determine how much credence to put on the peer assessment. That’s my rant. And honestly I would move forward on this and keep this in mind.

        1. Jesca*

          To clarify: my above comments are in regards to peer assessments and scoring during a review.

  6. all aboard the anon train*

    I’ve only ever worked in big, corporate companies. A small digital firm, Teapots Digital, has been trying to recruit me recently. Teapots Digital has about 20 people in the company. I’m used to 20 people in a a department.

    The pros are that Teapot Digital is a new industry, which is one I’ve been trying to get into. It’d be a $30K pay raise and I think I can negotiate for either another $5-10K or extra vacation time based on the benefits they don’t offer that I’d be losing if I went to work for them. Everyone seems nice and the office is in a good location that’s close to my apartment.

    The cons are that I worry a small firm means less opportunity for promotion. I know big companies don’t mean promotions either since I always get stuck in departments that have hiring/promotion/transfer freezes. But the job asked for 2+ years experience and I have 7, so it’s a lateral move, but just to a new industry. Teapots Inc is also very into company celebrations and outings, which I can deal with as long as they’re not every week, which they don’t seem to be (more like every month). The majority of the Teapot Digital office is also much older than me. I’m 31 and most people are at least 10 to 20 years older than me. Interns and assistants are all 10 years younger than me so I feel like I’m in a solo age group.

    The money is the biggest motivating factor right now. I currently make a decent amount of money for my area, but I also have amazing flexibility (I work 10-6) and can WFH two days a week. I’d give all that up for a $30K increase, though, since that would help me pay off my outstanding debt in a few months. And if I stayed for even two years, I’d finally have enough to consider buying in my HCOL.

    My biggest issue is that I don’t actually know if I’d like a small office. I’m so used to large, corporate offices that I worry that I’ll take a job in a small environment and then hate it. Has anyone made this switch before? What did/didn’t you like?

    1. The Other Dawn*

      In my experience, I’ve found small offices to have MORE opportunity. I started my career in a very small office–a startup bank–and I found it easy to gain a ton of experience and move around and up quickly. Mainly because there are less people to Do All The Things, so you end up taking on more. Lots of task diversity in a small office typically because of that.

      I made the move to a much bigger office a few years ago and found it very difficult. It was so hard to figure out who handled what because everyone handled only a specific portion of one larger task. Having people spread out made it hard to get a handle on that. Plus, I felt like a number for a long time.

      I then moved to a larger company and it wasn’t nearly as difficult. Probably because I’d already gone through the initial shock of becoming a small fish in a large pond; at my first company I was a pretty big fish in a very small pond.

      1. Kim Possible*

        I’ve also found astronomically more opportunity with the smaller company I’m at now, as opposed to the huge corporation I used to work for, for many reasons:

        -There are less people, so my superiors have seen my good work firsthand. At the corporation, I felt like I got lost in the shuffle. There was little feedback, period, and I didn’t feel like anyone cared about my success or noticed what I did or didn’t do.
        -I’ve gotten two significant raises and one promotion in my almost two year tenure at my small company. Again, less people, so the people who I approached for a raise (supervisor & boss) could speak firsthand to the higher ups about my quality of work. The promotion – my boss approached me about because he had noticed and been impressed by my work.

        I know for a fact I wouldn’t have had these opportunities at the corporation at worked with. You had to shmooze with the right people and work with the company for 10-15 years to even be CONSIDERED for any type of promotion (or raise, even – raises were rarely given).

        1. Kim Possible*

          Benefits are important to consider, too of course, but in my experience, I’ve had great benefits at both companies.

        2. Jesca*

          The caveat here is that advancement and perks are heavily based on your experience level when you start. If you have the opportunity there to learn and gain new skills to put you in a position for advancement, then yes it is a good move. The downside is though that the company does not experience any growth and you are stuck where you are. I mean maybe that could even be the determing factor? Taking a pay bump of $30,000 being no worse off than where you are now?

          One specific point though, many times in small companies you are expected to pick up work your role normally would not do as there aren’t full departments to do them. I would heavily keep that in mind as it has happened over and over in my experience (the upside is that you get to hone these new skills as well which can make you more rounded as a prospective employee elsewhere).

          Damn, I think I just talked myself into taking your small business job!
          (for context, I just left a small company to work for a massive global company. I like the global company better!)

        3. all aboard the anon train*

          Oh, your second bullet is a good point. One of my biggest frustrations with corporate is that I’ve always been told I’m one of the top performers, but promotions have always been by seniority and raises have always been standard rate for everyone, regardless of performance.

      2. My name is Inigo Montoya*

        I jumped from big to small and I really struggled with it. I moved back to big in under a year.

        YMMV – but all the “office housekeeping” really got under my skin. I liked that in larger offices there was an office manager for ordering paper, keeping the kitchen clean, greeting visitors, etc. The kitchen cleaning schedules, not having onsite database support, troubleshooting my own phone past the point of reason, etc all really got under my skin for whatever reason. While I understand that’s necessary for people to wear more hats in smaller organizations, I learned I need to look for roles where I wear the “hat” I’m good at more the majority of the time for my job satisfaction.

      3. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

        Totally agree. I love working for small organizations for all of these reasons.

      4. Natalie*

        I think it’s really true that one can gain more experience, but, in my experience with smaller orgs that additional experience & duties doesn’t necessarily come with more money or a different title. Which isn’t automatically a bad thing, just something to be aware of.

    2. Coming Up Milhouse*

      In the same boat as you. I left corporate america for a small, local company. Same salary and I wanted the closest commute but I really wish I didnt leave. There’s zero room for advancement, salaries are known to stay stagnant and the benefits I had under prior employer were 100 times better than the “competitive package” they offer here.

      The culture is different-it’s warm and welcoming until it is your third week and you’ve noticed all of the cliques.

      I would really weigh the pros and cons of both companies before moving.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        I’m looking to leave my current company for a lot of reasons, but the advancement and stagnant salary is what I’m most worried about. I worry that such a small company means there’s no advancement unless someone leaves, and I don’t want to get stuck in a dead-end position where I’m bored after two years.

        1. Natalie*

          Given that you say below that you really need to leave your current position, I wouldn’t worry too much about this now. I’m not saying jump at the first opportunity, but it sounds like there are a lot of compelling reasons to take this job that outweigh the risk that it will stagnate. If you find yourself bored in a few years, you can move on.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I went from large (20,000+) companies to one that has less than 100 employees. I liked the change because I had more involvement in the organization. I wear many hats, as they say.
      After being here for 6 years, I interviewed at a few large organizations and I was amazed at how little those roles accomplished. In my current role, I do x, y, z everyday and sometimes a,b, and c if it is necessary. But the roles I interviewed for only did y and they were so structured that the position shouldn’t even think of doing b or c! When I reflected on it, I was a cog in a machine when I was at a big corporation, but I have much more independence and room to grow at my small company. All my contributions are big contributions.
      I don’t get title changes and literal promotions, but my job has grown exponentially since I have been here. I have learned so much, and I can drive the organization in new directions because we are small, adaptable, and flexible.
      It’s not for everyone, but working for a small company fit my personality much better than a large organization.

    4. neverjaunty*

      Look at your benefits, too. Sometimes smaller companies have a hard time providing the same benefits (like health insurance) that a big company can offer.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        The health insurance is on par to what I currently have. The dental is a little less coverage, but not a large enough amount to make me reconsider (the salary would be enough to cover anything).

        The benefits I’d be losing out on are commuter expenses, tuition reimbursement, gym membership, and I’d be going down to a 3% 401K match instead of 6%. There are other small benefits I have at my current company that I’d be losing out on, but I think I have a good chance of negotiating more vacation time or another $5K-10K in salary.

          1. all aboard the anon train*

            Oh, yeah, that’s there. I just sort of lump them under health insurance in my mind.

        2. Kimberlee, Esq.*

          FYI! As someone who used to administer transit benefits, it’s typically pretty easy to get them set up for companies of any size, even if it’s only pre-tax instead of employer paid. It sounds like you’d also have a shorter commute, which I imagine helps!

        3. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

          Would you be losing that much on the 401K if your salary goes up by $30k?

          I’ve worked for small businesses, and currently work for a government agency with thousands of employees. I’ve enjoyed lots of things about both.

          What I would consider is: At the large company, how long would it take you to get your salary raised the $30k that the small company is offering now? If you think it’s more than a couple of years (which it sounds like), then you could work for the small company for a year, or two, or three, and then move back to a large company, and still be on par, or ahead of where you’d be, salary-wise, if you stayed put.

      2. CrazyEngineerGirl*

        It’s also possible that the ‘benefits’ can be more flexible at a small company. I work for a ~20 employee company and the owners can be really flexible when they want to be. For example, we only get 2 weeks of PTO a year. That’s it. Not a lot and that kind of sucks. But, and it’s a big but… when my mother was in the hospital and then passed away last month my bosses were amazing. I was gone for over 3 weeks, no questions asked, and the owner decided to just pay me my regular salary anyway without taking any of the PTO I had. So with limited PTO and no official bereavement leave, I still had 3+ weeks of paid time to deal with everything. The owner just wanted to do it and is in the position to make that decision and follow through. I think what a lot of it comes down to in a small company, is the owners/people in charge and how they run the company. That can make for a bad experience or an amazing one.

    5. JustaCPA*

      Ive just done a similar transition from working for a Fortune 5 company to an international company with locations worldwide and thousands of employees. I’m now at a small company with 50 or less and I’m loving it. There are definitely some cultural differences to adjust to but I’m managing. I think there’s more opportunity for sure in the smaller offices.

    6. Emily S.*

      I don’t have much to add here, other than this:

      Sometimes it can be beneficial to be a bigger fish in a smaller pond. More opportunities sometimes, depending on the situation. Of course there’s always a flip side to that, which you’ll have to consider seriously.

    7. anna green*

      I’ve only ever worked for small companies, so I can’t really compare. But I agree small companies do usually have less opportunities for promotions and possibly worse benefits like someone else said. However, you usually can also get a lot more varied experience because in a smaller company everyone tends to do a little bit of everything. You also can have more flexibility in salaries/hours/tasks, etc, because they don’t have to fit you into the same box as everyone else. I would think about what you like about the big corporate culture and see if it’ll fit in any way into your day to day at the new place. A lot can depend on the specific culture at the small company. But for more money and getting experience in a new industry, those are important. And as long as you go in understanding there’ll be differences and think of it as a learning experience, that’ll help.

    8. Objects don't argue back*

      I’ve pretty much only worked in small offices and on small teams; I suspect I’d do very poorly dealing with a larger place.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about age stuff — you may be surprised at how much you have in common with people both much older and much younger than you are! You will find plenty to chat about.

      I agree that I’ve found it easier to move up/around in small offices; because of the lack of personnel, it’s very easy to learn more duties, and the smallness of the office means it can be rather more agile. This could also be a downside; you can wind up doing a lot of varied stuff that isn’t in the job description! I love that, but ymmv.

      The bottom line, I’d say, is that smaller employers have mostly meant that the culture of the workplace is strongly defined. A lot will depend on how well you get on with the ‘personality’ of wherever you’re working.

    9. edj3*

      I’ve worked at both large and small companies. If you end up with a loon at a small company, the crazy doesn’t get diluted. Something to consider.

      1. good luck*

        ^ Oh yes, this! I work in a 30 person office and you can get mighty tired of the same people all the time – and the weird small office situations. Such as the AC wars that go on between the floors, the all-staff kitchen cleanliness meetings, etc. PLUS if you are losing two days of WFH, you will be with this group of people in this environment every.single.day.

        I would go to a larger company in a heartbeat.

    10. Paige Turner*

      I’ve worked for small and big companies and the main issue I had with the really small (like less then ten people) companies was with taking time off, because there was no coverage. I’d ask (either in a final interview or once you have an offer) about coverage for time off, as well as all the details of benefits (health insurance has been more expensive, when they offer it at all, with small companies, IME). But in your case, I’d take the job for the extra money and the opportunity to move into the new industry. You don’t have to stay there forever and the experience and pay increase would likely help when you look for your next position after that.

    11. TheAssistant*

      I made the switch from a 50-person department in a 4k+ person non-profit to a tiny nonprofit startup of 10 people, total. Everything, everything was different.

      I was not dealing with an awesome raise (small bump) but I found that I really do thrive in a small setting. There’s no bureaucracy within the company, you know? For instance, I wanted to move cities, just because I wanted to change. The process was: asking my boss, thinking through issues, telling our Ops Manager, and now moving. I’ve gotten to set up policies and implement change and take the lead on the vision for the company’s data systems.

      Now, big caveat, mine just isn’t a small company but a small, new (read: opportunity to put a stamp on it) company with no concern about where people live. It’s also a company that genuinely cares about its employees’ well-being. Significant others are encouraged on business travel and invited to group dinners. Work from home is liberally given. Clothing just needs to exist on your body and cover the normal things that need to be covered, and that’s the extent of the dress code. The Executive Director really set the tone for how he wanted this company to be run, and that’s probably what I’m attracted to most (instead of just “small”).

      I’m also impressed by the opportunity for advancement – basically from day 1 my boss and Executive Director were focused on making sure I enjoyed what I did and had opportunities to grow professionally. There aren’t obvious positions advertised for promotions, but the Executive Director intentionally groomed our Admin into a role she helped design (it wasn’t ever advertised – always intended for her). And though I’ve only been here a year, my boss is thinking about next steps for me to take more ownership and eventually move me into a higher-level position. So, in my small company, growth is strategic in terms of scaling expansion and leveraging talent. I’m thrilled.

      So I would encourage you to ask a lot of questions about culture and assess the vibe to see how well you’ll do. Honestly, even without a good vibe, I would absolutely jump at the chance to increase my salary by 30k. But the vibe can really make a difference of whether you’re thinking about just the paycheck or enjoying your work, especially when the company is very small. No hiding, no seeking other allies or departments if things go south.

      1. Oryx*

        The bureaucracy is what is the biggest difference for me. In the past, I’ve worked at what were basically branch libraries of much larger organizations and there was so much red tape. Where I am now, it’s just us and I find they are far more flexible because there isn’t so much hierarchy oversight and there’s lots of room for growth and advancement and they really encourage new ideas (because, again, there’s no team higher up that has to approve everything. We can just do it and trying and failing and trying again are always supported).

    12. Not So NewReader*

      I am leaning toward taking the job.
      But if it were me, I would make extra sure that I stayed on target with my financial goals. There is no point to giving up some things that you really like and then abandoning your goals at the same time. Not only is it self-defeating but it becomes a morale breaker over time.

      I had an okay paying job, it was the first one that paid me something decent. I made a list of goals. It took time but I hit all my major goals. Here’s the kicker, the job was awful. It was because I kept hitting my long term goals that I rode out the awfulness. I was willing to hold a laser focus on my goals and that focus carried me through the bad days.

      The two things I would say about a smaller place:
      1) I agree you get more opportunities to learn things and try things than you would in a larger place.
      2) Every time you speak pretend that everyone in the place can hear everything you say. This will carry you through so much and help you out a lot of times.

      1. all aboard the anon train*

        I’m in a pretty awful situation now (I’ve written before about my boss punishing me for going on vacation and management is so averse to hearing concerns that some serious issues have occurred – think sexual harassment that’s swept under the rug).

        My financial goals are pretty on track with my current salary, but the new one would get the most pressing ones (medical debt) out of the way quickly, which would be nice. It’s a difference of paying off debt in another year to two years and paying it off in two to three months.

        1. JulieBulie*

          Just based on the fact that you’re in an awful situation now, I think you should take the chance. I’ve gotten a lot more resume material out of smaller companies than I have at bigger ones, so even if this turns out not to be such a great experience, odds are it will still be better than where you are now AND it will beef up your resume big time.

    13. Epsilon Delta*

      The thing I really liked about working at a small company was that you could actually accomplish things. You tell the boss your idea, boss likes the idea and says “go for it,” and then you do it. At the big company I’m at now, there’s like 20 layers of approvals you need to go through so you don’t get anything done except things that fit in the narrowly defined window that you’re assigned.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      You might have certain opportunities to grow with the smaller company, true. However be prepared to give up other things. In my experience the smaller companies will work you much, much harder without regard for work/life balance. Also be prepared to give up things like pension plans and cushy 3 or 4 week vacation time and health benefits that are not quite as good.

      I say this as someone whose company was a small division of a giant company. When we divested, we lost the pension and the healthcare is not as good as it was because they don’t have the purchasing power being a small entity. So, it just depends on what you’re looking for.

  7. ZSD*

    Tips on being university staff reporting to a faculty member?

    I’ve just accepted a staff position at a university. I’ve had staff positions before, but they’ve always reported to other staff members – people who work regular office hours and so forth. This time, I’m reporting to a faculty member, and I’m a little anxious about how I’ll know when it’s okay to call her with a question, coordinating work, etc. Have any of you been in this position? Any tips?

    Thanks!

    1. Anonygoose*

      I’m an assistant to about 12 different faculty members (probably a bit lower down the totem pole than you, but it’s the same idea!). The one thing I’ve learned in the last year is there is no hard-and-fast rules for what faculty will expect. Some want me to figure everything out myself and won’t respond, or will respond incredibly slowly, to questions. Others like to be kept in the loop at all times. It all depends on your specific faculty member, and what your role is, and that’s something you’ll figure out in time just like you would with any other boss.

      That said, the one bit of advice: Don’t be intimidated by them! They are just people and, although they might be smart in one (or several) academic areas, they don’t know everything. That’s why they need you and your expertise! So don’t be afraid to point out that something doesn’t make sense or might be better a different way, because sometimes faculty can be so absorbed in their research and teaching that they can be very narrow minded.

    2. Another bureaucrat*

      I made that transition myself a couple years ago. I think those are valid questions and appropriate to ask! If she doesn’t tell you , for example, whether she’s teaching a semester, or whether she’ll be actually in her office on campus x days a week, you can ask how she’d like to handle communication. Does she prefer to meet in person on a regular basis to review work? How does she prefer to handle email? If you need to reach her urgently, or get a response within 24 hours, how would she prefer you contact her? It took me a bit to figure that out with my boss, but after some things were missed because she hadn’t responded to my emails or follow up emails, she told me to text her if I needed a response that day.

    3. Murphy*

      Just ask them how they’d like you to handle it! My boss is currently staff, but former faculty, and is the type of person who works all hours and will often send me emails at weird times, so we had a conversation about how he wanted me to handle that. (I was coming at it more from a “do you want me to be responding at all these weird times” more than a “when is it ok to contact you” perspective, but still.)

    4. Amadeo*

      I used email a lot when I reported to faculty in my previous university job. They were able to answer in their own time or poke their head in my office as they were passing.

    6. Hannah*

      I used to work with a lot of faculty, and really, it depends on the faculty member! Personalities in academia are varied.

      One important thing can be getting your questions answered from other faculty assistants. If you have a question about how something works administratively, or who the correct person to send X form is, or how to do Y, seasoned, experienced assistants can be a much better resource than the person you’re assisting. Just make sure you seek out someone who really knows their stuff.

      Of course, direct questions about what your faculty person wants to meant should be directed to them, but often they want you to do some footwork to figure out how things work at your university…because often they don’t care or know themselves.

    7. over educated*

      Congrats! I think I remember you posting that you were close to the end of a contract, so it’s great that you’ve found something.

      No advice though. I’ve done contract and RA/TA work for faculty, and in that context I figured contacting them during normal businesses hours was fair game. The tricky part that I didn’t experience, where you might need to have more explicit guidelines, would be over breaks in the academic year where staff still report to work but the faculty member could be…anywhere, really.

      1. Bibliovore*

        As a faculty member with staff reporting to me, direct questions by email are best. My time is not consistent except for class schedule. Second the “I might know the answer but could probably point you to the person who can” Understand that just because I am not 9-5, I am probably working most waking hours because of service, publication, and leadership responsibilities. I do however to expect my staff to be present during scheduled work hours and give reasonable notice if they are unable to meet those expectations. Ask if I need to be ccd on emails going out of the department. I am learning not to be a micromanager and have discovered that makes me a bit of an absent minded professor- oh I have a class today at 3:00? Yes, and second the do a little legwork on things like “how do I FedX a package?” “the computer isn’t connecting to the internet”

      2. ZSD*

        Thanks for remembering! Yes, I just finished my last job. This new one is in my fallback field, not my first choice, but it’s much better than unemployment!

    8. Blue*

      Email is usually best since their schedules are usually pretty unpredictable, but you really just need to figure out what works with this particular faculty member. I’ve reported to faculty a couple of times, and I’ve generally had a LOT of autonomy and independence. Like, I could go weeks without seeing them in person, and I only emailed them with a question when I had exhausted all options for answering it myself. This worked because I’m good at problem solving and tend to work well on my own, and also because the professors in question were very predictable in their decision making, respect of policy, etc. Once I figured out where they stood, I could operate within their expectations pretty smoothly. Good luck!

  8. eager*

    happy friday!

    I made it through the final round of interviews for a higher ed admin job, and then was contacted for my references. the new job spoke to all my references this monday and mentioned to two that I’m their choice and they hope I accept their offer. it is now friday and I haven’t heard anything. is it worth following up or should I just sit tight?

    I was warned that HR can take a long time at this particular university and that there are rules that the new job can’t notify me themselves, that they must wait for HR… but of course I’m so anxious to know that I’m running through worst-case scenarios in my head.

    1. Bigglesworth*

      My previous job was in higher ed and they take forever! They’ve been trying to hire a new HR Director since January and even lower level position like mine could take anywhere from 2 weeks to 3 months (I was an admin). I wouldn’t worry about it. A few days or even a week doesn’t seem like that long to me. If you don’t hear back in a week or two from the time your references were checked, I would send a brief email asking about the status of your application. Other than that, this could be a glimpse into how long it takes to get something done at this particular university.

    2. Not Penny*

      I had a similar experience when applying for my current role in Higher Ed admin. It was really frustrating at the time but just how it goes here! I try to always let candidates know now that even after they have contacted references they can still be slow to confirm. Hang in there – I hope you get good news.

    3. Murphy*

      They can definitely be slow with paperwork. I got a verbal “you’re our first choice” probably about 2 weeks before I got an actual written offer at my university. They had me fill out the background check paperwork in the meantime though.

    4. Ophelia Bumblesmoop*

      They do take forever. At my current position, I transferred from another department. It was not a lateral move; I went from entry level to mid-level with a change in hours. There was a tremendous amount of internal politics and 3 weeks after the dept chair told me I was his choice and would be receiving a formal offer, I had to follow up with HR. My start date was 4 months after I submitted my application. That was a month faster than my initial hire!

    5. Airedale*

      Just another vote that hiring in Higher Ed takes forever. (But I like the work itself!) Hang in there.

    6. Lia*

      For my current position, it took two weeks from the verbal offer to the offer letter. There are a lot of moving parts that must align at a university, so it can take a while for them to happen!

      Our most recent searches were 4 months, 5 months, and 5 months from posting to start date. We’re getting faster, although the 4 month one was an internal hire.

    7. eager*

      thanks everyone! I think I’d feel better if I had a verbal offer, but only my references were told that I was the top choice. fingers crossed!

      p.s. I’m new to this community and I don’t know what took me so long to engage!

      1. Beckie*

        My experience is slightly different from others in this thread: in my experience universities are slow at hiring (especially in the summer), but I have always gotten a verbal offer and the offer letter on the same business day. I think even the time I negotiated a little bit on salary I got the offer letter by the end of the same business day on which I’d gotten the verbal offer.

        I think I actually prefer that set-up; I think I’d go nuts if I had to wait weeks (!!!) between the verbal offer and the offer letter.

    8. IvyGirl*

      Depending on the role and the department, this is a suuuuuuper slow time for a lot of higher ed.

      Lots of big financial-impact cycles have most likely just completed (fiscal year end, budgets, fall term bills just sent, etc.) so now is a prime time for vacations to be taken.

      They also might have summer staff hours, which can mean on Mondays & Fridays there is skeleton staff present.

      You should hear something really soon, and the feedback from your references is a good sign. Good luck – be sure to get everything in writing!

    9. Lemon Zinger*

      I work in higher ed and it will take time! Be patient. My hiring process took three months from start to finish!

    10. Ghost Town*

      There’s a whole slew of bureaucratic hurdles that they have to go through to even get the offer letter out the door. At the very least, there’s probably a school level and a university level of HR to approve the offer and letter. If you are already or have ever been an employee of the university, that adds in another layer of stuff they have to do.

      Congrats!

    11. Marillenbaum*

      They definitely take a while. When I worked in higher ed, we were hiring for a position around the end of the fall semester, which means HR moves slooooow. They had interviewed a friend of mine, and my boss asked me to tell the friend that not hearing anything just meant the HR was being HR, and he was still very much their top candidate.

    12. Ama*

      If this is a university whose academic year starts in late August/early September, I can guarantee at least one person who needs to sign off on something in HR will be on vacation right now. It was a perennial source of frustration when I was working in academic admin in a department that was doing a lot of hiring that you needed to get new people onboarded before the school year started — but because of the way our vacation policy worked everyone in HR, IT, and all the other offices we needed help from went on vacation in late July and August.

    13. Meg*

      I know it’s fruitless to tell you not to worry, but try not to worry. :) I work in higher ed, and basically everyone is on vacation right now…late July/early August is the sweet spot, between the end of the fiscal year and the ramp up to the fall semester. Hiring takes a while and a lot of people in HR will need to sign off on it.

      Good luck!!

    14. NonProfit Anon*

      So nice to see a few higher ed folks here. It can take forever in HE. I now work at a non profit but still in higher ed and have recently started a new job search. I had one I thought I had a good chance at but its either higher ed “doing its thing” or they’ve gone another direction and haven’t told me (and I work closely with them already).

  9. Nervous Accountant*

    Training advice!

    Part of my job includes training new hires on different things like our tax software, the company’s products etc. Lately my mgr has asked me to train on soft skills as well bc he likes how I write and communicate. He’s praised my emails in the past and I think i’m pretty good at this when I’ve had time to flesh things out and not caught off guard.

    I’m kind of at a loss though bc aside from saying.. be warm, professional, concise, I’m not sure what else to say to new people? A lot of what I learned was common sense (i.e, being very nice, professional etc), practice (concise but not rude tone), talent (I’m pretty good with writing) and through specific situations.

    As a manager/leader, what would you emphasize? As a new person, whether new to a company or new to working world, what would you like to hear?

    1. hermit crab*

      What kind of training is this — an informal one-on-one session, or a more formal session where a group of people are together? If it’s more formal, it might be useful to go through some exercises, e.g., to practice responding to a common situation, and then discuss the results. Either way, you might consider providing some examples of good communication pieces and going over why they are good — it’s easy to say “be professional and concise” but what does that really mean, in practice, at your company?

      Also, don’t forget about company-specific culture/practices/unspoken rules — for example, where I work, pretty much every email begins with “Hi RecipientFirstName,” and ends with “Thanks, SenderFirstName.” It’s a simple thing but might not be something new hires will figure out for themselves right away.

    2. Neosmom*

      I had a boss tell me my emails were “too harsh” but gave no examples or guidance to fix. So I developed my own strategy. First, I draft the “harsh” email that communicates the point(s) I need to make. Then, I reread it and add the words that will adjust the tone desired for that particular message (conversation, facts delivery, urgency, etc.).

    3. SansaStark*

      In the past, I’ve created email templates for the most commonly asked questions so that the new hires/temps can get a sense of the style of email that we send. It seems like common sense to you but if someone’s never held a particularly public-facing job, it probably wouldn’t occur to them to start an email with something like “Thank you for your interest in our chocolate tea pot program” or whatever introductory sentence makes sense for you. I’ve also encouraged the new hire to read old archives of sent email, again to get a sense of the types of questions asked and how we respond.

    4. De Minimis*

      I’d just give examples, and maybe point out how the e-mails are constructed. Talk about what the goal was for a particular e-mail and how that is carried out. If there’s a difference between internal and external audiences maybe show the differences in how the communications work.

      We had a whole workshop on writing at one of my previous jobs.

    5. EleonoraUK*

      I’ve only done this in the past where I’ve been looking to improve certain aspects of their communication that they’d received feedback about. This included pointing out when they’d implemented the feedback really well, to show them an example of their own working hitting the target. It would also be things like feedback when emails were too curt/long/what have you, with an example of how I might have gone about phrasing it instead; or the feedback that this particular email was a good example of when their communication was too curt/long and a “if you want to have another go I’d be happy to take a look at it”, with feedback on the new draft.

    6. Observer*

      Go through specific scenarios. What does it mean “be professional” when X happens? Does “be nice” mean x or is Y ok? Share the things that went well AND the things that did not go so well. Just make sure you don’t share sensitive information that’s not yours to share.

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      Okay so I think it would help to stop viewing this stuff as common sense. It should be but sometimes it’s not.

      Use examples of good AND bad and practical exercises – don’t just tell people, they need to try it out.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        I think some where in the archives is a post on email communication, what to do and what not to do.

        I do agree that you are taking for granted what you are doing right.
        Some of it you will have to catch the problem in action, there is no way to anticipate that a person will do weird X or strange Y. So this leaves just general rules.
        You may find it easier to write guidelines for emails and guidelines for phone calls and use your guidelines as a starting point.
        You can encourage people to tell you when they have hit a unique situation or a complex situation to talk to you first before responding.
        Never underestimate the power of role-modeling. Some people can catch on faster if they can watch you talk to a client or answer an email.
        With the job I have now there is a list of Do Not Do’s EVER. If you can write that up so the person can see it before they start interacting that would be very good. This is a list of foreseeable conversations that are known traps/pitfalls and should be avoided. For example, if someone calls me and says, “My son has X problem will you help me?” I look and see the son is of adult age, I have to tell the person “No, I have to talk to your son because he is considered an adult.”

      2. Parenthetically*

        Yes yes yes to using good and bad examples! And then talk through why the bad examples are bad, what can be done to fix them, why those “soft” communication skills matter.

    8. Turkletina*

      One thing that I’m working on as a new hire is knowing the audience for my emails. This week, for example, we were supposed to launch a project on Thursday, but a technical problem pushed the launch back a day. I don’t work on Fridays, and the email I sent to my project manager basically said “I won’t be able to do this because I don’t work on Friday.” My manager took me aside and said “PM doesn’t care when you work; he cares about delivering to the client on time. So my advice is to frame your message in terms of impact on the project timeline.” I ended up writing back to the PM with “Sorry, I should have provided more context. We think we can still meet the delivery deadline because of X Y and Z even if we delay the launch until Monday.”

      The point is, it didn’t immediately occur to me to think about the addressee’s job and priorities when writing an email.

    9. Toph*

      This is what I’ve found when asked to “train” colleagues on things that to me are common sense. To some people, it’s still not intuitive. They can probably tell, for example, looking at you emails, or how you approach certain situations that you’re Good At That (regardless of whether they recognize they might be Bad at That or even Medium at That). So modeling behaviour is great. Especially if the employees are new, you can literally set the tone. If someone seems to need more explicit instruction, with some things it might mean needing to figure out what The Voice is. You don’t want to get to the point where you’re nitpicking everyone’s turns of phrase, but sometimes if there is a particular piece of information someone seems to omit, you’re letting them know they have to always include that. If it’s more of a tone issue, it can be helpful to provide a few “this not that” type examples, but with communication styles, I’ve learned the hard way not to over-example, because some people will get stuck in the template and be unable to adapt into their own words. Or they’ll think they’re not allowed to say anything off-template. So being clear about what examples are intended for them to learn from and maybe mimic but not cling to is important. Or if there is something where you the company has an official statement or official format or standards, and you need them to not deviate from that, also make sure that’s clear. Anything that is official should be documented too, like always hyphenate this Department’s Name or always address clients by Prefix.Surname, or always by FirstName or always have X salutation in official communications, or don’t use this abbreviation, etc.

    10. Thlayli*

      Is he just asking you to train people how to write emails? Or is he asking you to teach people soft skills in general? If it’s the latter That’s really vague, and I think hunk you need to ask for clarification. Soft skills covers such a wide range of stuff.

      For me, the things I’ve found hardest to deal with in jobs are figuring out the unwritten rules. Explain a bit about the culture. What sort of behaviour is really bad (will get you a warning) what is not against the rules but will make you look bad, what is ok, what is actually desired. This is from a cultural perspective too not just manners. Make it clear what is specific to your office and what’s standard in your industry.
      Eg is it ok to ask someone how their work is going or will they think you are spying on them/checking up on them. Is this a culture where asking anything g about anyone’s home life is considered weird or is it ok to ask about people’s kids etc. Imagine how you would explain desired behaviour to someone from a totally different planet. Make a list of possible topics and then go to your boss and say this is just some of the stuff that falls under soft skills. What sort of thing were you thinking of?

  10. Cass*

    I’ve accepted a new job! Thanks in large part to Alison’s wonderful advice. I’m so excited/scared. I’ll be moving from Texas to Seattle. My wife and I are looking at renting a house in the Ballard area. I’d appreciate so much if anyone who lives in or is familiar with the Seattle area would be open to given me their opinion of the neighborhood. Thanks!

    2. not so super-visor*

      Congrats! No advise in living in Seattle, but it’s a great city. I have a lot relatives who live outside the city. All I know is that the COL is pretty high. My cousin was just telling me about their house-hunting escpades: $450,00 for an 860 square foot house that was 45 minutes outside of the city.

      1. Bigglesworth*

        That just made me twitchy. I just moved to the D.C./Northern Virginia area and I’ve seen better prices than that for homes here. Nothing like Oklahoma (where I’m from), but still. Wow.

        1. An Inspector of Gadgets*

          You have seen better prices than that in the DMV? Where?? I live 45 min drive/1.5 hr commute away from my DC office and cannot for the life of me find such prices on detached single family houses for sale.

          uh, sorry Alison. End derail.

          2. KellyK*

            Charles County, maybe? Waldorf is supposedly 45 minutes from DC, and the $400,000 homes are huge (3000+ square feet). I didn’t see normal-sized houses on Zillow, but they must exist.

            St. Mary’s might be an option too, although it’s even further south. I know people commute to DC from Mechanicsville, since there’s a commuter bus from Charlotte Hall. It’s also pretty rural. Which is awful if you don’t like rural, but housing prices aren’t as crazy as the more suburban and urban areas.

          3. Ell the Bell*

            I live in the DMV (on the northern part) a 45 minute metro ride from my office (it’s about 7 mi as the crow flies). There are detached single family houses in my neighborhood that are ~1100 sq ft for $500k or less. It’s possible depending on where you look.

              1. An Inspector of Gadgets*

                Oh no I was just generally curious about DMV. I’m on the northern part as well. Must be more granular than I had thought! I assumed distance-from-downtown was directly proportional to cost, and I’m 20 crow-flying miles from my office so clearly that assumption was incorrect. Thanks for the info!

                1. Peggy-O*

                  MoCo resident. Last weekend I wanted to get out of the house, but didn’t want to sweat (so no pool) and didn’t want to spend money so I went to open houses in Germantown. I only looked at townhomes and they were all in $375K-$400K range. Depending on time of day it would be a 20-30 minute drive/bus ride to the nearest metro (Shady Grove) and then however long into the city (~35 minutes to Metro Center).

                2. An Inspector of Gadgets*

                  Yep, that’s the stuff I’m familiar with. Detached homes (like I assumed not-so-super visor meant by saying “houses”) are generally higher than $450k from what I’ve seen of northern MoCo. Seems I need to keep my eyes more peeled!

                3. An Inspector of Gadgets*

                  (also my commute is more complicated due to office location, most coworkers live in VA but we have a 2-body situation that makes crossing the state line less ideal)

                4. Bigglesworth*

                  It looks like others beat me to the punch. :) I’ve also been looking a REO/Hud homes as well as normal homes and townhouses, which are even less depending on where you’re looking.

    4. Maswaki*

      Aww……….congratulations, that’s good news. I hope the move goes well for you on all levels.

    6. Research Assistant*

      congrats! Think you’ll have to wait to ask for the general open thread, though :)

    7. Umvue*

      A friend grew up there and recently told me that (1) it’s currently one of the hottest neighborhoods in the city; I think he said median house prices are something like $750K, and (2) when he was a kid, it was a working-class neighborhood full of Scandinavian seamen. So it sounds like it’s possibly awesome, but maybe don’t expect to find a cheap rental?

      1. Managing to get by*

        I lived in Ballard 20 years ago and loved it. Don’t like it now so much that it’s become gentrified. The Seattle neighborhoods are losing their individuality. Ballard is pretty convenient to downtown, but it can take a long time to get to the freeways if you need to get out of the city on a regular basis.
        Housing prices within the city limits are high, and so are rents, even in outlying areas.
        I have heard great things about using the Sounder train to commute, especially if your office is walking distance from the train station. If I were newer to the area and looking to buy a house, I’d pick one of the towns along the train routes and buy something close to the station.

        1. Chameleon*

          Be aware Sounder has very limited hours. Good for standard 9-5s, but if you have to stay late you may get stuck taking a bus.

    8. Die Forelle*

      I live in Seattle! Ballard is a nice neighborhood, I used to work there and still visit pretty regularly. Lots of restaurant and nightlife options, but also some quiet neighborhood areas too. They have an awesome year-round farmer’s market on Sundays. I don’t live there because it’s a little tech bro-ish and expensive for my taste, but there are plenty of quieter areas, too, I think. Neighborhood recommendations in Seattle are tough without details on where you work and how you’re commuting, because traffic can be a nightmare. Ballard is a bit cut off from the interstate highways, but pretty good if you’re working in downtown Seattle or a neighborhood near Ballard. There are some other Seattle commenters around who might have feedback, and I’ll check back later to answer questions if you have any!

      1. My Two Cents*

        I’ve lived in Seattle for about 20 years and agree. Where you work in Seattle really can determine where you live. If you work in the north end, Ballard can be great. I work downtown and live in the north end (Green Lake) and never drive to work. It’s just traffic hell. So I always make sure I live near an express bus route. Ballard has three – the 28X, 26X and D Line – plus you can ride your bike to work on the bike path to downtown. Regardless, expect about a 30-45 minute commute from Ballard to downtown – longer if you’re going to South Lake Union. You can also look for neighborhoods north and south on the light rail lines, which are easy and get you to downtown quickly. Another poster mentioned locations much farther north and south (Montlake Terrace, Burien). If you’re buying, that could make sense, because Ballard is super expensive, but personally, I choose to pay for the convenience of location.

        1. Windchime*

          Yeah, this sounds about right. My boss lives in Ballard and our office is downtown. It takes her at least 30 minutes to get to work on the bus.

          Ballard is a cool place. Lots of the residential areas have tiny, narrow little streets so that’s something you might have to deal with. I would love, love, love to live in Ballard.

    9. LCL*

      Don’t look in Ballard, it’s pricey as h—. Don’t look in downtown or Capitol Hill or South Lake Union, either.
      Go either north-Lake City to Shoreline to Lake Forest Park and Mountlake Terrace and Kenmore and Lynnwood, or south-Burien, Des Moines, Tukwila. There’s a Seattle reddit that is really good with these questions, I’m not going to link to reddit on a work computer…

      Try and figure out how close the light rail will be to where you want to live, and when it will actually built. Light rail is more a future reality than a present reality, unless you are going to the U District or Capitol Hill.

        1. periwinkle*

          I never understood The Oatmeal’s obsession with teriyaki… until I moved here, where no strip mall is complete without a teriyaki place, drive-through espresso kiosk, and recreational pot store with a pun-y name. My preference is teriyaki pork with a side of yakisoba, and later a double-shot latte with two Splenda. I’m not allowed to indulge in the third option.

          Cass, post in the weekend thread and we’ll discuss the Seattle quirks!

          2. Mike C.*

            It’s weird to me how everyone else associates the Seattle area with salmon when there are more teriyaki joints than hamburger places.

            1. Retro*

              I never noticed that when I lived there, but then again, I hate teriyaki so perhaps I had my blinders on. Ha!

      2. Nerfmobile*

        Oh heavens. I grew up in Federal Way (just south of Tukwila/Burien/Des Moines) and all of that area is suburban hell. If living in Ballard interests you, don’t go south of Seattle proper by any means.

      3. Optimistic Prime*

        I wouldn’t live in Cap Hill or SLU either, but I would totally look in Ballard.

        Those other places you suggested are great for someone who wants a cheaper rental/home and doesn’t mind driving, but they’re not urban and if you want the conveniences of city life you’ll be disappointed.

    10. Emily S.*

      Good luck! Seattle seems like an amazing place to live. I have an acquaintance who lives there and loves it (and actually is based in Ballard and likes it). Washington State is naturally beautiful also, lots to do for outdoorsy types if you’re interested.

    11. Franzia Spritzer*

      I’m a natural born Seattlite, I went to Ballard High School, my grandparents lived in Ballard my whole life, (my g-pops was the funeral director at Bonny-Watson… you’ll see it), and I consider Ballard to be the Land of My People. Most of the cute older houses are turn of the century or post war, smallish and very expensive. Housing in Seattle is bonkers. Full disclosure, I do not presently live in Seattle, but I lived there for 42 years until I split for grad school. I’m desperately trying to get back and I can’t quite wrap my head around skyrocketing housing costs. It’s disconcerting.

      What part of town you are working in matters a lot. South Lake Union and downtown are accessible by transit, and there are north-south express busses depending on how deep into Ballard you are, 15th has a bus, 8th has a bus, but 3rd does not. If you’re going to SLU or downtown, you CAN go over the Ballard Bridge, down 15th to 1st, to Denny, but holy cats that’ll take forever! Sure you can go through Fremont to Westlake (Dexter is better) because on paper it looks more direct and it is, if you’re on a bicycle. Getting to Aurora from Ballard is a nightmare, legitimately horrible, you can go up and over Phinney Ridge and skirt around south Green Lake to take 50th (faster than 45th) but it’s slow, you might as well try 80th, 85th, hell 145th would be quicker! If you’re on the Hill or First Hill and trying to get home during the day or on a weekend, planning your route is a little like folding space.

      If you’re going to the Eastside from Ballard, plan on spending an ungodly amount of time commuting. You might be traveling a total of 8 miles, but it’ll take actual ages. If your company has their own commuter buses, you’re golden.

      Ballard is cute, but it’s removed from the city center in the same ways Magnolia and West Seattle are. I think access to all points are better from West Seattle. If you’re working Downtown, living in Bremerton is a seriously good option, it’s slightly less expensive and they’re starting a super fast (30 min) passenger only ferry this summer.

      As someone said upthread, consider looking around the margins of Seattle to find slightly better rentals. Skyway (las time I checked) was lovely, Tukwilla, South Park, Burien seem removed, but they’re pretty accessible to the city and the Eastside (if you must).

      If you’re working Downtown, living in Bremerton is a seriously good option, it’s slightly less expensive and they’re starting a super fast (30 min) passenger only ferry this summer.

      Another very real option, depending on where you work, one could COMFORTABLY live in Tacoma and take the Sounder up, it actually take less time to take the train to King St. Station from Tacoma, than it does to drive across town in and out f Ballard. Another full disclosure, I have lived in Tacoma as well, and I loved it. The city is investing in arts and culture, the history is rich and interesting and there’s plenty of cute neighborhoods and hip things to do around town, you wouldn’t be missing out on anything by living in Tacoma.

      Congratulations and good luck!

      1. Windchime*

        I have a couple of coworkers who ride the Sounder (train) up from Tacoma and they love it. I live about 30 miles north of Seattle and have the option of taking either the Sounder or an express bus, both of which take about an hour. Lots of people drive back and forth to Seattle, but it would take at least twice as long for me to drive, and then I’d have to pay $17 to park.

      2. Chameleon*

        Second Tacoma– downtown is pretty nice. Although it’s getting to be not so affordable now.

    12. LCL*

      …one last thing. Seattle has just ‘passed’ a city income tax. The state doesn’t have income tax. Everyone expects the income tax to be thrown out in court. But it might be a very costly economic decision to buy a house within the city limits instead of just outside them. Ballard is within the city limits.

      2. Mike C.*

        It’s only 2.25% on single income over $250,000 or married income over $500,000 so I have a hard time seeing it as a very costly economic decision.

    13. JustaTech*

      Welcome! I have friends who live in Ballard who complain they never see me because I live on the other side of the city (east of Capitol hill) and it can take a surprisingly long time to get there. Also, very pricey (everything in Seattle is wicked expensive right now, sadly). Ballard is a nice liveable neighborhood (more than one level of grocery store, restaurants, shops, coffee shops, a movie theater) with a smidge of light industrial left over from days of yore.
      If you’re ever stuck on the Ballard Bridge when it goes up (Seattle is full of drawbridges) you can occupy yourself by checking to see if any of the Deadliest Catch boats are in the docks.

      A weird thing about homes and apartments in Seattle; there’s a lot of turn-of-the-last-century stuff around that isn’t fancy, so be sure to check for things like up-to-date electrical and if the walls are drywall or plaster. (You can’t hang anything on a plaster wall.)
      Oh, and don’t expect AC in anything but the very newest buildings. It’s just not something we do up here.

      1. Retro*

        So much YES about the A/C. Decide how much you appreciate it before you pick a place. I didn’t even think about it, and once I realized everyone told me “No worries, it’s Seattle, it never get’s hot!” right before a summer where it was week after week of upper 80s/lower 90s and at least one day where it reached almost 100. A/C was a priority when I shopped for my next place. If a few weeks of hot weather won’t bother you though, you’re good!

        1. Saturnalia*

          Similar experience, in Boston. Didn’t even realize the place lacked air conditioning until the first heat wave, at which point it became quite obvious and also quite urgent to fix :-)

      2. Cass*

        Oh gawd, yes. I finally started noticing apartments and some houses advertising AC, and I’m thinking to myself, “Why are you telling me this? Of course you have AC.” Nope. Fine with me, it’s currently just over 100 here in Texas. I’ll happily trade AC for Seattle weather.

      3. Optimistic Prime*

        No AC, but I wouldn’t worry about it too much because it only gets hot enough to need it maybe 1-3 weeks out of the summer. Depends on the kind of summer we have :D

    14. Chameleon*

      Ballard is a great neighborhood! A bit hipster, and it has changed pretty drastically over the last decade or so, so you may run in to some resentment. Depending on where you work, commute may be tricky. I was in South Lake Union, and my friend from Ballard often had to wait for 2- 3 buses to pass before there was room to get on.

      But be aware that Seattle is *expensive*, and Ballard particularly so. The further from downtown the cheaper, but the worse the commute. I would actually recommend checking out places like Georgetown or Columbia city – – much of the ambiance of Ballard with a lower rent.

    15. Green*

      Congratulations on the new job! My husband and I moved here to Seattle about a year ago, and we love it! Ballard is an awesome neighborhood, and, as many have mentioned, very expensive — but pretty much everywhere is expensive, so take that with a grain of salt. Living farther north/south and taking the train will be a very different experience. Ballard is also huge, so while there are a ton of restaurants and bars closer to the water, along Market, etc., there are lots and lots of streets with sweet older houses that are also considered Ballard, but probably wouldn’t be what people would consider walking-distance to that bustling “downtown” Ballard area. Fremont and Wallingford are also cool areas nearby with their own distinctive business districts.

    16. Optimistic Prime*

      Woooooot! Welcome to the PNW! I live in the greater Seattle area, although I live in the ‘burbs (known here as the Eastside).

      Ballard is great! A bit pricy, but if it’s in your price range it’s really nice. Lots of cute restaurants and bars.

    17. mreasy*

      Ballard is my favorite Seattle neighborhood! I don’t live there but have visited and have a lot of friends out there. It’s lovely.

  11. Hectora*

    Does anyone have any experience with doing business travel with aviophobia? I have medium level aviophobia so I can fly but it’s also completely noticeable to those I fly with. I had a surprise business trip coming up in the next few weeks with a few supervisor level folks and we’ll be taking the same flights. I don’t want to explain it, I’m younger than everyone else by a lot so I feel like it could infantalize me (I had to explain an allergy recently when ordering food and now it comes up all the time…) nor do I want to get excluded from future business trips, but I also don’t want to seem randomly cranky, twitchy and nauseous. Any tips? Should I get some sort of anti-anxiety medication? Has anyone had any experience with using an anti-anxiety medication and then having to do business later that day?

    1. paul*

      How much later? and are you currently taking/on anti anxiety meds? This is really a doctor discussion, but keep in mind meds impact people differently, so you probably don’t want to try a new medication out right before business stuff. The one time I did that I wound up having to call a friend for a ride home….

      1. Hectora*

        I’m not currently on medication. I’ve tried Xanax before, not for flights, and it didn’t really seem to affect me much. I mostly was wondering if anyone knew from experience if medication is the only fast option for dealing with flight anxiety? I’d love to avoid medication or even asking for medication (my insurance is garbage) if possible but with it being such short notice I don’t exactly have time to do exposure therapy like most websites I’ve read so far suggest.

        1. ThatGirl*

          My husband has some travel anxiety (I wouldn’t say it’s full blown aviophobia) and has taken Ativan. Same idea as Xanax but a little stronger. He said he felt a little dazed during the flight but it wore off enough for him to be functional the rest of the day.

          Honestly, it probably is your best/fastest option, although I also don’t think “I’m a nervous flyer, bear with me” would infantilize you, many people are.

          1. Hectora*

            Thanks! Do you know if your husband saw a regular doctor for discussing the travel anxiety or did he see a psychiatrist/therapist? I’ve honestly never had to discuss my travel anxiety with any sort of doctor before so I don’t even know who you speak to!

            Normally I’d agree about the infantilizing thing but my coworkers are older woman who tend to unintentionally (I think) go into mom mode with me since I’m a younger woman with no kids. I think if they knew I had aviophobia they’d ask why I even agreed to go this time and then avoid offering me business travel going forward…

            1. ThatGirl*

              While he does have a therapist, he got that prescription from his regular doctor – this is a totally normal thing to mention, honestly. Just say “I have a business trip coming up and I am feeling really anxious/worried about my aviphobia/[fill in the blank] and was hoping you could prescribe something.” The doc may ask a few questions or just offer you something. You may want to try taking one on a random evening to see how you feel if possible?

              I hear you, obviously you know your whole coworker dynamic better than I do. :) Good luck!

              1. Hectora*

                Thank you! I appreciate the advice it’s really helpful. I was really clueless before on what normal procedure for this was!

                1. Parenthetically*

                  Yes, same — my doctor was happy to prescribe just a pill or two for flights.

          2. Amy*

            I’ve taken both Ativan and Xanax and Ativan did have way more of an effect on me as far as the spacey out of it aspect goes. Antihistamines will amplify the effect of Ativan so you have to be careful with that.

    2. allergies*

      I have food allergies, too, and can sympathize with how you feel about them.

      I’d like to ditto the tip on asking your doctor about ativan. in my experience, it really takes the edge off while flying but doesn’t incapacitate me. in other words, I think you’d be fine a few hours later. I’d also say (though I am NOT A DOCTOR) that it’s mild enough you might be able to try one (with your doctor’s permission) one night, while home, before flying to see how it affects you.

        1. blackcat*

          If you get any meds, definitely try them out beforehand!

          I had a terrible valium experience. I asked for it before a medical procedure where I knew I couldn’t get the usual anesthesia. Valium came as 2 pills, which I thought was odd. I only took the one right before the procedure and HOLY SHIT IT DID NOT DO WHAT IT WAS SUPPOSED TO!!! Not only did that suck, it was super embarrassing. And I was surrounded by medical professionals, not coworkers!

          On the off chance you have odd biochemistry and do not respond to a drug in a standard way, you want to know that before you are relying on the drug to work.

      2. Hectora*

        I wanted to add about the food allergies thing that I’m glad someone else knows what I mean. I mentioned my allergy a a few months ago and since then I get well meaning! but unnecessary comments asking about food I’m eating like “Oh does that have X in it?” I’m glad y’all are concerned but I’ve had food allergies my entire life! I of course check ingredients in my food and don’t eat food I’m not sure about especially when eating at work where it would be a hassle to have a reaction.

      3. AcademiaNut*

        I would absolutely try it out *before* getting on the plane – plane trips are not the time to discover that you’re one of the rare people who gets weird side effects from a drug.

    3. CatCat*

      I used to have it pretty badly though it’s gotten a lot better over the years. I hear you on not wanting to be excluded on future business trips. I told a high level person I was traveling with about it when it was more severe for me (to explain why I was acting so nervous) and ended up being excluded after that. Is it possible not to sit with your supervisors?

      Things that helped me deal with my phobia about flying:
      – Anti-anxiety medication. Definitely helped me relax, but made me “spacey” for much of the day so I didn’t like it for business travel. Worth discussing with a doctor for sure though.
      – Alcohol. Maybe controversial to suggest this and may not be possible given your business context, but I find a drink at the airport bar or on board helps calm me down without the spacey-ness I get from the anti-anxiety pills (I do NOT do both the medication and alcohol. One or the other. Not safe to mix!!)
      – Educating myself about flight. I took an online course and read a book about overcoming fear of flying. I learned coping mechanisms and also about why certain things happen during the flight (especially about turbulence, how to think about it (I learned to think of it like when a car goes on an unpaved country road: not unsafe, but bumpy), and when it is more likely to occur (going through clouds! Now I just always expect it and it’s normal).
      – Deep breathing. Check out “One Moment Meditation” to quickly calm your mind. I was a skeptic, but it actually works.
      – Talking to my neighbors. I *LOVE* getting a chatty seat neighbor (and I’m not normally a very chatty person with strangers) because having a conversation is a fantastic distraction.
      – Just observe the people around you, especially the flight crew. Are other people seeming just fine on the airplane. Well, you’re all on the same plane so you are fine too.

      It took a long time, but I would now describe myself as a “nervous flyer” rather than being phobic. The education on flight and non-chemical coping mechanisms (especially deep breathing) were the most effective to get me to that place.

      1. Hectora*

        Thank you! My fear is usually controllable enough I white knuckle it when I do occasionally fly but it’s very noticeable. I’ll will check out the One Moment Meditation; anything would help over grinding my teeth and moving my legs all over while I try not to get naseaous!

      2. Hectora*

        Thank you! My phobia is controllable enough normally I white knuckle it but people I’m flying with or random seat/aisle neighbors almost always make a comment on my obvious anxiety. I’ll definitely try some of your suggestions; anything is better than grinding my teeth and wiggling in my seat with my eyes closed the entire flight!

        I’m hoping if I get to book the flight I can get my seat in a different aisle but I’m not sure if I’ll be booking the seats or not that would be the easiest solution!

      3. CatCat*

        Oh, also, I did try therapy and it was completely ineffective for the phobia. Not saying it isn’t worth trying since maybe you can find a therapist with expertise in this area. (The therapist was actually really helpful with other stuff, but not the phobia, which was my primary reason for going to see her.)

        1. Hectora*

          Thanks! I haven’t tried therapy because I fly at most once a year but often more like once every two years because it’s cheaper to drive and I’m on the East Coast so a lot of stuff I need to get to is fairly accessible by car or train so when I do fly I just white knuckle it but it’s very noticeable. My travel partner or even seat mate/aisle mates a lot of times make comments on it. I’ll definitely try and check out some of your suggestions! Anything it better than grinding my teeth, breathing heavy and wiggling in my seat with my eyes closed the entire flight!

          I do hope I can book the tickets and put myself in a different aisle then my supervisors but I don’t know who is going to buy the plane tickets yet.

          1. Mephyle*

            If you can arrange things so that you’re consulted about seat selection, you ask for a preferred seat without even bringing up the subject of anxiety. For example, you can express a preference for a window seat, or for an aisle seat (doesn’t everybody?) As a consequence you might get a different row, instead of being in a middle seat between two colleagues.

            1. Hectora*

              Oh that’s a great idea! I have very very long legs so requesting I’d like to receive an aisle seat would be completely normal thing to do I wouldn’t normally think of.

              1. Natalie*

                You could also look at the extra-legroom seats if the airplane has them. You’d probably have to eat the extra cost, but it’s often a small fee if you’re flying domestic and your colleagues probably wouldn’t do the same thing, so you’d be sitting in different rows.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      Definitely talk to a doctor, but if you can’t get a short-term dose of anti-anxiety medicine, I have a friend who swears by Dramamine as a stop-gap. She gets nauseous from anxiety and the dramamine stops that, which keeps the upset stomach from intensifying the anxiety and stops the feedback loop where the physiological reactions cause stress which causes physiological reactions, etc. (mind you, I’d test if you react well to dramamine first, since some people have weird side effects)

      1. Hectora*

        That’s a great idea! I hadn’t thought of it but stopping the anxiety induced nauseous would definitely help with the ramping up of anxiety through out the flight. And I don’t know a lot about dramamine, so this could be totally off, but I wonder if it would help the way the nauseous/anxiety combo sometimes makes my head swim like I’m sea sick. I’ll absolutely be looking into it and try it out ahead of time!

        1. SM*

          With dramamine and any other antihistamine you might try, I’d suggest giving them a try beforehand as well, like you want to for the anti-anxiety meds :). I have very different reactions to different antihistamines, so it always helps to check. I fortunately don’t get a phobia, but I do get motion sick including nausea and dizziness on flights. Two things that have helped me greatly with those symptoms are ginger pills, and somewhat counter-intuitively, making sure I eat well – low blood sugar makes the symptoms worse for me. I hope you find something that makes flying tolerable for you!

          1. Hectora*

            Thank you that’s great advice! I’ll admit sometimes with the anxiety I’ll forgo meals before flights which is definitely like your saying only generally going to make things worse for most people!

        2. Jess R.*

          The other possible advantage of Dramamine is that it might make you sleepy! I’ve taken Benadryl specifically to make myself sleepy before a flight I’m nervous about, and then I just conk out 15 minutes in and sleep the whole flight.

          1. Hectora*

            I’ll definitely have to try it out at home before I go. Benadryl and some meds like benadryl actually make me very hyper active like I’ve had 11 shots of espresso (something my parents found out the hard way when I was really little)! Less horrible than nauseous for sure but definitely a reaction that would be good to know to expect ahead of time!

    5. LKW*

      Try out different meds if you can. I tried Xanax and it made me jumpy – not the result I was looking for.

      1. Hectora*

        Thanks! It’s in a few weeks so hopefully I can try one or two options before I leave if I go to a doctor this weekend. I tried Xanax once before for something else and it didn’t seem to do much of anything besides make me slightly tired but it’s been a while and I haven’t been on anxiety medication since I tried it so I’d definitely want to try it again before dealing with an airport and my coworkers!

    6. Sunshine on a cloudy day*

      I don’t have experience with aviophobia, but I do have experience mixing business and anti-anxiety meds. First – everyone reacts differently, so this is just my experience. Second if you go this route, absolutely try to test the medication before your flight so you can see how you react. If that’s not possible – maybe try a very small dosage and adjust as needed throughout the flight so you can see how you react.

      For me, anti-anxiety meds do not effect my cognitive abilities at all. I’ve tried Ativan, Xanax and Klonopin. They all feel slightly different, but to me it feels like sort of like a blanket being wrapped around my brain and core – which then slows down/calms my physical reactions (heart rate, nausea, breathing), but I remain completely mentally alert. Klonopin seemed to maybe blunt my emotions a bit, but I remained alert and capable of work functions. I actually find that anti-axiety meds help me perform much better (or at the very least does not effect my ability to conduct business).

      Again – everyone reacts differently, but just wanted you to know that there are some people that do not experience the groggy/sleepy/confused side effect that others do.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, my husband told me that for him taking ativan, “I was still kind of anxious, but I didn’t care”.

      2. Hectora*

        Thank you for the advice! That seems logical to me, I know a lot of people who take anti-anxiety medicine regularly and function during normal work and life things but at the same time my mind was already anxious thinking about the flight and convinced that despite it being logical to find something that works for me personally that it meds would different somehow for one time/occasional use.

        1. Ms. Frizzle*

          If you do try meds, remember that you don’t have to take the whole thing! My mother is a really nervous flyer and has Xanax for trips. She’s on the smaller side (5′, size small or medium in clothes) and will usually only take 1/4 or 1/3 of a pill, make it through, and be fine to drive even after a very short flight. I’ve also had Ativan prescribed before medical procedures and felt okay to work later in the day but pretty calm during the procedure so anecdotally at least, it can work.

          Good luck!

    7. Zip Silver*

      I usually pound back a few beers before flying for work. 100% acceptable with my boss and company. I’m a nervous wreck otherwise.

      1. Hectora*

        I think if we weren’t meeting with clients later that day my supervisors would be open to the idea of a beer or two over lunch before we left since we’re from a pretty laid back industry when it comes to that sort of thing! Too bad it’s such a short meetings packed trip!

    8. V of Taco Trucks*

      One thing that helped me was assiduously avoiding caffeine the night before or day of a flight. I never thought about it before, since I have coffee every morning, but it really affected my ability to stay calm during a flight. Long-term, your GP can prescribe an anti-anxiety med like Celexa, which will take some time to build up in your system.

      The other thing that really helped me was learning that it is really, really hard to stop a plane from flying once it gets started. You are in no danger.

  12. snowflake*

    Quick question for those who track time for work – do you have any favorite systems for keeping track of what you are working on? I need to track which external client, the type of task, and for how long – think accounting or legal work. I’ve been doing it for 2 months and definitely need help in implementing a better system.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I’m tremendously fond of Trello for project tracking, and there are a few time tracking add-ons for it (I use the Plus for Trello chrome add-on). I’ve also used TimeCatcher on my phone, when I needed to log hours for clients.

    2. Purplesaurus*

      I’ve been using Podio for years and would recommend it. Though, you might have to look into the security since you’re dealing with more sensitive things than I am.

    3. OtterB*

      I like Toggl. I’m using the free version which has tasks associated with projects. I think you can also have clients in the paid version, but for your purposes you might be able to have the task and then each client as a “project.”

    6. Actuarial Octagon*

      We use Harvest at work. I really enjoy it. I believe you’d have to pay for it, but if you’re doing this kind of work a lot it may be worth the investment.

    7. LDP*

      Every job I’ve ever had requires time tracking, and for me the easiest thing is to literally write it down manually. At my current job, I have a section of my work notebook where I track how long I worked on different projects. You can also find planners, such as the Simplified Planner that break your day down hour by hour. I would chop those hours up into 15 minute increments (since that was the base number of time spent at a past job) and would track it that way.

      I know some people would think this would take up way too much time, but it’s the best way I’ve found for myself, personally. Hope this helped!

      1. hermit crab*

        I also write things down on paper, but I’m the kind of person who uses a paper calendar and doesn’t have a smartphone. That said, my direct report does it too, despite being a tech-savvy 23-year-old! :)

        Recently I have been working on tasks where I tend to send an email when I’m done with something (like, “here is the draft” or whatever) so I’ve actually just been using my sent-mail box instead of writing things down. I take a few minutes at the end of each day to sort my incoming and outgoing email into folders, and fill out my timesheet at the same time. However, I usually bill in half-hour increments, so there is less pressure to time things to the minute.

    8. Epsilon Delta*

      I like using digital notebooks (OneNote, Evernote, etc). I have also been experimenting with using a bullet journal, but so far I’ve gotten mixed feelings on it. Works really well for converting my emails into a to-do list, not so well for tracking ongoing projects.

    9. SMT*

      I have a Google spreadsheet that I use to track my time/activities throughout the day, along with the business it was for and the category of work it was.

    10. Thlayli*

      I’ve always just done it in excel. I had it set up so I had a start time at the top, a row for each job (and a row for lunch/breaks) and an end time at the bottom. Then at the very bottom is a calculation (end time – start time – sum of all jobs). As I went through the day I put the current time in the “end time” box each time I finish a task and the calculation spits out how long I spent on that task. I type that in to the relevant job and the calculation goes back to zero. Repeat each time I finish a task. A column for each day, and sum it all over the week (or however you report it).

      Simples.

    11. Julia Gulia*

      We use Liquid Planner, which is exhaustively detailed. It’s been a steep learning curve, since it’s basically about teaching every staff member to think like a lawyer (accounting for your time in small increments and billing it to a project), but hopefully it will be worthwhile in the long term.

    12. snowflake*

      thanks! I should have been more clear that we have a program to enter the time, it’s just coming up with a personal system to keep track of what I am working on before I enter in my time at the end of the day. Sometimes there’s a 4-hour block of time that I lost – my system right now is to write what I worked on down with the time it took. This doesn’t work if you forget to write things down. I am going through sent emails for a record but sometimes I do one thing and promptly forget that I completed it.

      It doesn’t help that the nature of my position means that I could work on a lot of clients doing a number of different things in the course of a day – I get excited when I realize I have an entry that accounts for more than one hour!

  13. The Other Dawn*

    Is anyone out there a personal trainer? Or has a friend, relative, etc. who is a trainer?

    It’s something I’ve been thinking about doing. Not now, but maybe in a couple years. I use a personal trainer and I’ve been helping my friend and niece to get started working out, and I find it to be rewarding. If I were to be a trainer someday, I think I’d like to focus on people that have had weight loss surgery or are looking to lose a lot of weight, rather than athletes or people already in good shape. I’ve gone the weight loss surgery route and had to lose more than 100 lbs, so I feel like that could be useful.

    I’m curious to know what it’s really like, education and training involved, salary, etc.

    Like I said, it’s not something I’d do now, but I’m kicking it around a bit for the future. Maybe as a side job or something.

    1. Shamy*

      I have two sisters that work in fitness, one is a personal trainer and one is a fitness instructor at a gym. The personal trainer has her own business. She had to study and take an exam for her certification. The other had to certify for her specific fitness classes she was teaching. I am not sure how much the personal training exam was, but the fitness class certifications may have been a hundred dollars or so and I believe she has to do them every year. I have kicked around the idea of teaching myself, but haven’t gotten too far with it. I am not sure what my personal training sister makes, but it is likely more than those at a gym since she goes to her clients’ homes. The fitness instructor teaches 2-3 classes a week and if I recall correctly, it adds up to about $400 extra a month for her.

      Also, congrats on your weight loss. I think that would be such a great niche because I know sometimes people feel like they can’t relate to people like my sisters who while they have worked hard to be in the shape they are have never truly had to struggle the way many obese people do. So please do consider something like that if you would enjoy it! Fun sidenote, my personal trainer sister says some of her physically strongest clients were the ones that had a large weight loss because they were so strong from carrying all the extra weight!

      1. The Other Dawn*

        “…they were so strong from carrying all the extra weight”

        Definitely! I carried around an extra 130 lbs. I still have about 20 to go, but it’s just to lose a little flab I gained after the excess skin removal/tummy tuck earlier this year. I’m getting back into shape, though.

        I won’t say I eat, sleep and breathe working out, but I do enjoy and find I look forward to it now. But, yeah, it’s rewarding to be able to help someone else who has no idea where to start. And I think overweight people are generally scared of the gym, of being “on display”, so to speak. I was, for sure. I spent my whole life being made fun of by all types of people for my weight AND height, so why would i want to go somewhere that has a ton of in-shape, beautiful bodies? And what would THEY say about me? Also, it’s so hard to know where to start and what one should be doing to start on the path to fitness.

        1. Shamy*

          Maybe just teaching classes would be a good foot in the door. The other posters are right about the exam. There is a lot more anatomy and physiology than one would expect. You aren’t even relegated to a gym for classes, my mom took classes at a senior center with a woman who arranged her own spaces. Her people loved her so much, they pretty much followed her everywhere. Maybe looking into fitness certifications and seeing whats out there and what you might like. Don’t forget more unusual fitness classes too. I would kill for some kangoo classes in my area. Just a few things to give thought to.

          I do want to throw out there too for people struggling with their weight that there are those of us that don’t struggle that have a great deal of compassion. I am actually a dietitian and would tell clients and friends regularly they have one of the most difficult addictions to cope with. I don’t mean to minimize other addictions at all, but the unique aspect is that with many other addictions, you have the option to not partake at all. With food, you have to confront that every single day. You don’t have the option to just not eat. So I hope others in that situation right now reading this will feel empowered to know that there are those of us rooting for you. I don’t want to derail your thread, just wanted to throw out some happy vibes to those battling what is often a difficult and not supported enough issue.

          1. The Other Dawn*

            Oh, yes! I didn’t mean that people who aren’t or weren’t overweight aren’t compassionate and don’t understand. I just meant that it’s not always the case. Plus, we can get all up in our heads about it and really self-conscious, which can make people–overweight or not–just not want to even attempt the gym or any workout in general. That was me for my whole life.

          2. Anon For This*

            Can I just say thank you so much for this? I have struggled my entire life and am surrounded by people who are fit, thin and have never had to think twice about what they eat (my family) and coworkers and friends who are all thin and active. Many of these people care for me but none of them understand. Their advice is always “eat healthier” or “exercise more” which … I know they are trying to help but it is not helpful. Why don’t you just tell a heroin addict to use less heroin.

    2. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      I had two friends who were PTs and both left it as a career. One became a HCA, another went into teaching.
      If you’re good, and get a good position somewhere with set hours/clients then it can be good, but competition for them is high. They worked at various gyms, and I’m not sure of the specifics, but they had to provide their own clients and pay a fee to the gym.

      The loved it, and found it rewarding, but they couldn’t get by on the salary and couldn’t find a more stable place to work at. As a side job it’d work quite well I think, but again it’d depend on the location. ie if you had your own gym or if you’d be renting (some gyms charge a flat fee to be a PT, others by session)

    3. Zzz*

      I was a personal trainer for several years and am still certified.

      Education: Ideally, you’d have a background in exercise science or physiology. At the very least, you should take a class before going for your certification. The certification tests (at least the ones that are legit, like ACSM), are shockingly difficult. It’s not just about knowing different types of exercises, there is a lot of anatomy and physiology involved, as well as psychology (knowing what motivates people, how to get people to change habits). As a trainer, you are not allowed to give nutrition advice, unless you are also a nutritionist. This means a lot of your clients will not lose weight, since most weight loss is dependent upon diet, not exercise.

      Salary: Depends on where you work. Most trainers work out of gym but are not employed by the gym. Some gyms have a set fee you can charge, others you can set your own price. You will need to purchase insurance as well. Salaries are not very high, and you may struggle to find full-time work as a personal trainer. Many people train part-time to supplement their income. You have to pay for continuing education classes as well, in order to maintain your certification.

      Day-to-day: It’s a pretty exhausting job. You have to keep your enthusiasm up all day, and if you’re not with a client then you’re not getting paid. You also typically have to recruit your own clients, so there is advertising and sales involved as well. Even though you’re not exercising with the client, you are constantly picking up heavy weights, demonstrating exercises, and on your feet all day. I lost all my motivation to work out when I was a trainer, because I was so exhausted from the job.

      Overall, would not recommend unless you are looking for a side hustle. Even then, you have to be pretty dedicated to sales and advertising and willing to learn a lot more about the science behind exercise. You also have to love being around people and be able to keep up your enthusiasm all day, every day.

      1. NW Mossy*

        My trainer is a former family counselor, and I think it makes her a lot more effective – she’s got that warm, patient, understanding vibe that people really respond to. She got started doing training for big corporate clients that run on-site gyms, and has since opened her own studio.

    4. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Not helpful, but I would LOVE this kind of service. I was just thinking that I’d like to start using a trainer, but I specifically would want someone experienced in working with bodies like mine.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Aside from the weight loss surgery, it’s really the best thing I ever did for myself. It’s awesome for learning the right way to workout, what you need specifically for what you want to accomplish, and definitely (and the biggest for me!) accountability. And it was really (happily) surprising to find out that I don’t need to (and really shouldn’t) spend an hour on the treadmill to get a good workout; it’s not all about cardio. You need to develop muscle to burn more calories and make the body more efficient. Just need my body weight and some solid correctly-performed moves, really.

        I say go for it, but shop around to see who’s right for you. I found mine through a Groupon for the studio I go to. I got five sessions for 100.00 total (astronomically low price!). I learned enough to realize I really need a trainer and was able to determine he was right for me: he’s not a screamer, he’s encouraging, asks me about my nutrition but doesn’t hound me, and listens. Plus, he works with others like me.

        Good luck!

    5. JLo*

      I was a personal trainer for over a decade. I have a degree in Exercise Science, and was certified (cost $600, but is now closer to $1,200). I left because I was burnt out. You work off-cycle hours since most people will want to work out when they are not working, which means 5:30am-9am busy, maybe 10, or 11 am (if you have a retired person, or stay at home spouse as a client); and then it picks back up at 4:30 pm-9:00 pm. You also work on Saturday and/or Sundays. It is similar to consulting as you never know how much money you will have coming in every month, and there are ebbs and flows with the work load. January is obviously really busy, but summer and Christmas are so slow.

    6. Former Retail Manager*

      My husband’s best friend became a personal trainer, and after several years, quit and has now gone back to a regular 9-5. Zzz’s post pretty much hits the nail on the head and my husband’s friend had the same experience as Zzz.

      Salary is crap (friend never made more than $20k in his best year. He would have paychecks as low as $75 sometimes), hours are not great unless you like working really early/late, and people are fickle. When times are tight, you are one of the first “bills” to go. The position depends solely upon the discretionary income of clients not to mention relationships with said clients. Upset one client and you risk losing not only that client, but also any others they may have referred to you. As Zzz said, it’s not bad as a side hustle, but as your only source of income, it isn’t advisable.

  14. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    I work for a UK based Gov Org, a large division split into various teams and sub teams. I’m on a young team My boss and co-workers are under all under 21. I’m 29 and my boss boss is 35. We’re all enthusiastic about doing a good job, positive and willing to learn and change to make stuff better. We are unusual as most other teams are negative and stuck in the ‘but this is how we’ve always done it’ rut ie ‘Lifers’. Anyway, our team was given a big Process. This Process was done by Betty, (and her boss Wilma) but it was taken off her (and Wilma) and given to our team. Aside from a few hiccups, we’ve had excellent feedback on us handling the process, and we’ve changed and improved the process. The Problem? Betty and Wilma (who still do the tail end of the Process and are both lifers) keep finding ‘errors’ and ‘problems’ with our handling of the Process. Except they aren’t, it’s just that we have changed the Process and do it differently. We’re told them the Process change, but they keep going by the old Process.
    After an incident this week, Wilma has invited me, Betty and my boss (Dino) to a meeting for a ‘Catch Up’ next week. Dino is off today so I set the meeting up, (even though don’t think it’s a good idea). Dino had my back 100% during the incident, but she’s also a new manager. So I am concerned we’re going to get side swiped with a list of major issues that we haven’t been told about/ it’s going to become a Tit for Tat ‘You did this wrong’ ‘Well you did this wrong’. Wilma even said after the incident that I would have been avoided if we had printed out the Document (old way), but we don’t need to print the Document as we have it filed electronically (new way).
    TL:DR
    How do I handle an antagonistic team who think we’re doing their Process wrong?
    I’ve been asked by Dino to track future issues with Betty (there were small things before the Incident, but hadn’t crossed the line) I 100% don’t want to tone police her, but I’m not sure where the line between ‘Brusque email – I’m busy’ and ‘Caustic email – I think a poop emoji could do a better job than you’ lies? How to a distinguish them??

    1. Silver Radicand*

      That’s rough. Honestly, this something you need to get clear with your boss on. I assume she is wanting to track those and potentially bring them to her boss since her boss is the manager of Wilma and Betty. Regardless, if things do go downhill, it sound like Dino is probably going to need to get with her boss about what processes the team(s) need to use to interact with each other.

    2. LKW*

      My advice is to prepare for this meeting internally. Compile a list of all of the potential arguments or known “issues” and have a clear response to each with a short reason of why that element was changed.

      For example, the printing of a document – well, storing it electronically makes it more easily accessible to a larger audience and saves on printing/paper costs. Thus the decision to not print crap.

    3. IvyGirl*

      Do not attend or hold any meetings with these staff without your own staff (or preferably your boss present).

      This is ripe for things being “misheard” i.e. heard how they want to hear them/how it benefits them.

      Use some of the verbiage that Alison has used before – “I need you to do X, as Y is no longer part of the process. Can you do that?”

      1. ZenJen*

        In my dept, when we have important mtgs that someone might miss, we RECORD them (through WebEx)! Redundant, if your boss can’t come, RECORD this meeting–if not, I fear that your bad scenario will happen.
        Also, if it’s your meeting, YOU run it. YOU let people speak, but you do NOT let them derail the meeting’s activity.

    4. Lora*

      Ugh. Been there.

      -Listen to them vent. It will be annoying. Thank them for their feedback if you can do so with a straight face.
      -Explain why the new process was done the way it was and ask how they would have approached these issues (in other words, there WERE issues that needed addressed, the old way was not fit for purpose). Like, “the old method of printing the document meant that revisions to the document got passed around to various people and some revisions were lost in different copies of the drafts, we couldn’t tell who wanted to make what changes, and our paper purchasing bill was $$$$/month. How would you have ensured that everyone was able to see everyone else’s changes and reduced the cost?”
      -Ask if the implementation of the new process needed more training, more help learning it, how are they struggling with adopting it? Why can’t they use the new way? What do they need to start using the new way consistently?
      -Acknowledge that change is hard for everyone. Say something like hopefully once everyone has adjusted we will all be a lot more efficient, everyone’s work will be a little bit easier, something like that.

      At least, that’s my sort of standard method for the I Don’t Wanna people. It seems to work. There’s always some grumbling but people mostly get over it after a while. I give any new thing about 90 days of adjustment period, longer if it’s for something you don’t do often (like only once a month), it takes a while for people to change their habits.

    1. Alastair*

      I am mostly a huge fan!

      For every jerk posting racist crap who may now get through there are at least 10 diff religion or political or sexual orientation or gender identity who won’t have to worry that their social media is keeping them from getting a job.

  16. Faith*

    So, this week I’ve learned that apparently the state of Texas has introduced pay equity bill earlier this year, which puts restrictions on the employer’s ability to ask about applicant’s compensation history.

    “The proposed bill would make it illegal for an employer to include a question regarding an applicant’s wage history information on an employment application, inquire into or consider an applicant’s wage history information, or obtain an applicant’s wage history information from his or her previous employer. However, the bill does provide that an applicant may provide written authorization to a prospective employer to confirm his or her wage history, but only after the prospective employer has made a written offer of employment to the applicant that includes the applicant’s wage and benefit information for the position.”

    The company I worked for has already revised their employment application template to remove any questions about compensation history. Even if the bill doesn’t ultimately go anywhere, it’s good to know that my employer has made a decision to move in the right direction regardless.

    1. k.k*

      I love that more and more states are introducing legislation like this. It’s an issue that I’ve come to feel very strongly about, and has become a bit of a hill to die on now that I’m job hunting. Even if my state doesn’t it, the fact that it’s becoming more well known can influence how individual employers hire.

    2. Zip Silver*

      The lege is already out of session, though. It’ll be at least 2 years until anything happens.

      1. hermit crab*

        But companies are still making changes, regardless! I think that part is really interesting. The company where I work did something similar with that DOL overtime rule, which may or may not ever go into effect — our entry-level consulting staff have all been classified as non-exempt and receiving overtime since last fall.

    3. JustaTech*

      San Francisco passed a law like this yesterday. Yay not being chained to old low pay!

  17. Nervous Accountant*

    Developments:

    I met with a recruiter.

    He reached out to me a few months ago but I turned him down because I wasn’t ready to leave, and I referred a coworker. So coworker and I have talked at length about career and work and stuff. and I’ve generally talked with other (close) cws about career goals. The CW I referred has more experience at other firms so has a better idea of what’s normal and not normal. Those conversations, along with the client review I talked about last week planted the seed so to speak.

    I guess I”m having something of an internal crisis about this. I’m scared to leave because 1) I do like working here (aside from the low pay and heavy social media emphasis), and 2) I don’t know if this is more of a work or nonwork thread topic but I feel like if I leave, I’m “abandoning” the baby plans now . I’ve been working so hard for months/years to be healthy and now i just feeling like giving up.

    Even worse, I came to the realization that I never really developed long term career goals.
    -I never thought I’d be good at anything or achieve anything so when I went to college, I just really wanted to get married and have kids and be a housewife.
    -I got married, graduated college, and one month of housewife life later I decided that hated that life.
    -The goal then became “to get a FT job in an office” w whatever credentials I had. I was OK with starting at 30s or 40s, I just really wanted something in an office. Going back to school wasn’t an option so I did whatever I could to achieve that goal within those limits. At that time, I had a lot of other personal issues and I thought getting a job would help with that.
    -I got this job. And slowly, life got better and things fell in to place. I’m definitely better off now than I was 5 years ago so i can’t say I’ve any regrets.

    Honestly, the thought of starting over anywhere freaks me out. New commute, new gym, new coworkers, new systems, new bosses, waiting for benefits etc. New coworkers esp is the most daunting part. I just finally started feeling comfortable with the people around me.

    My CWs talk about ultimately wanting to start their own firm, or work at a certain type of company. When I think about it, I have no idea what I want. I always knew I’d stay home for the first few years with kids and then go back to work but aside from that, I don’t know. I was never interested in having my own business and side stuff I never considered bc I either had no experience so wasn’t comfortable or I was already putting all my time and energy during tax season at work.

    I like my career & job but the environment/fit is SO imp. I’ve worked w toxic people in small companies and I truly don’t want that again. I don’t want to work for a small office ever again, and big 4 isn’t for me.

    I know I’m all over the place here. For a while I was so very firm in my plans and now….not so much.

    1. Hibiscus*

      Not to sound harsh, but the place you work has done a number on you for YEARS. You’ve complained about people not liking you, your boss writing you up, the inconsistent and mixed messages regarding your work, personality, skills, the low pay…honestly, it sounds like you should leave simply because it’s a poorly managed and maddening firm with people who play games.

      I think it sounds like you are uncomfortable with change. But that’s no reason to stay in a bad place. Overall, it sounds like talking to a therapist would be good for you,to devise some ways to increase your resilience and learn about yourself and firm up your view of your life. Because maybe you won’t like staying home with little kids. Maybe your husband will die. Maybe an amazing opportunity will fall into your lap. You can’t plan for everything. As for the overwhelming new–yeah, it’s different and it might be harder. But you also might feel it’s easier to deal with when you don’t constantly feel like you are standing on eroding sand.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        oh wow, I guess when it’s put that way it does sound pretty bad. I mean….didn’t mean to paint a rosy picture or romanticize it. I’ve had rough days/weeks but it got better I guess? I’d say aside from the few work things that happened this year, for hte most part it’s been pretty good, socially and work wise.

    2. Emily S.*

      This is tough.

      One thing I would suggest doing first: Set aside some time when you can really focus, and not be distracted. Take a notepad, and start to write down things that you want in a career. Then keep writing, and keep thinking about the different various things you want in a job, etc. This will help your process of starting to write out a list of goals (best to start with 3 – 5 year goals, nothing too big), and figure out what is most important to you.

      (It may also be helpful to write on a separate sheet about your personal / life goals in parallel. Such as taking a break to have a child after X number of years, etc.)

      It’ll probably be good to also have some serious talks with your partner, about both lists, AFTER you personally are able to write out substantial lists.

      Next, I’d recommend assigning each item with a priority. (You may want to rewrite things out at this point, in order to line things up more clearly, and also, write out more details, where appropriate.)

      I think that once you’re able to really sketch out your goals, you will have a much better idea of where you want to go from here.

      Other questions to consider:

      -How willing are you to take the risks and deal with stresses (etc.) of a new job?

      -How important is money / salary to you, when the chips are down?

      -If you don’t already have a mentor, how could you begin the process of finding one?
      (Perhaps look at LeanIn.org for this, or your local LinkedIn groups for your industry.)

      I think these processes should help you figure out what your priorities are, because it seems like you really need to clarify those, before making a big decision like a job change.

      And by the way, PLEASE do not give up (on the taking care of yourself/ goal of having a child, or anything else). You have a lot going for you and you CAN be strong, and take control of your career. Believe in yourself!

    3. anna green*

      It’s okay not to know! Really. Most people go through this. I can’t quite tell if you have kids or not? or if you are planning to have a baby? Basically, if it makes sense to stay in a job you don’t particularly love because it makes sense for the rest of your life (kids, family, etc.) that’s okay!
      I am going through the same thing where I don’t like my job anymore, but at the same time I am so comfortable here, so its scary to think of moving. But I am looking for something new anyway, and I am waiting to find the right thing. Take your time and think things through and do what feels right, but don’t be so afraid to make a change that you get stagnant. You would get comfortable in a new place soon enough.

      1. amy l*

        I am mid-40’s. I have two college degrees and three kids. I have no idea what I want to be when I grow up. For now, I’m happy to be a “worker-bee” in an accounting dept.

    4. Michael Scarn, CPA*

      What things do you like most about your current job and what do you like least?

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      It’s okay to be a lifer, if you like where you work. If you plan on having a family soon, staying put is probably a good idea from a benefits standpoint. Also from a post-baby back to work standpoint having a long stable work history before taking a few years off is a good thing.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        That’s exactly why I’ve considered staying, plus I feel like 3 years isn’t enough to build a stable history esp since all I have prior to this are temp jobs.

      2. Former Retail Manager*

        Seconding Master Bean Counter’s suggestion. And as I’ve heard said more than once, if you don’t know what to do, do nothing. If you’ve ironed out the wrinkles where you are, believe that your job is secure, and things are going well, just stay put for a while longer. If children are in the future, you definitely don’t want to leave, start a new job, and then say “surprise, I’m pregnant” six months later. That would be a lot of change all at once and may not set you up for success in the long term.

        And as for the “no career plan” issue…..if you like what you do and are good at it and really don’t have the drive to do anything else, that’s fine. Everyone doesn’t need to become a partner, venture out and start their own firm, or accomplish whatever else would be considered to be “successful” in your industry. If you’re happy where you are, there’s nothing wrong with continuing on as is. Plenty of people do.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Lots of stuff here.
      1) Being scared to move is not a reason to stay in place. Conversely, talking to a recruiter is not a reason to change jobs. What is missing here are facts. It’s fine to look around and see what is out there, it’s fine to collect up more facts so you can better decide. Which ever way you decide find a good strong reason for that choice.

      2) I agree with the poster who said your job and work place sound horrid, I don’t think I would have stayed. But you have made it and you sound like things might be falling in place. How’s the nervousness? Has it gone down or are you just better able to cope with the same level of nervousness? I ask this because the first few jobs I had made me nervous. I blamed myself, if I had confidence or if I had whatever then I would not be nervous. Looking back on it the truth is if I had a decent workplace I would have calmed down and settled in.

      3) Nervous about moving on. The learning curve will not be so steep. You will know some things and you will be better able to recognize situations for what they actually are. It will not be the same nerve-wracking thing it was years ago. You can also borrow questions from AAM and ask Qs about the culture of the place when you interview.

      4) New job vs. Baby. I think if you look at this carefully and think it through logically you will realize it is not an either/or situation. It’s about building a map through the process of both additions to your life. I think that plenty of readers here can tell you how they mapped out their processes. If you have a general idea of where you are going that can relieve some concerns. Not the same, but my husband and I both had bad jobs and yet we wanted a house. We realized that we could leverage our longevity at the jobs to assist with our mortgage process. This made sense because the next job would probably pay better so we could look forward to being in a better after we got the house. We found a modest home and bought it. His job was a lot more toxic to him than mine was to me. His job was killing him but mine was just making me sick. So he changed jobs first. Then a while later I went back to school. It was a plan that we roughed out and we guessed at the sequence. It worked, well, we found ways to make it work. It’s good to realize that nothing is certain and we all are just making our best guess as to where to go next.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Thank you for weighing in, I always appreciate your comments and I know you’ve been following since the beginning :-)

        Re #2–I’m really not nervous anymore at work. :) I’m more confident in my work and what I do. I would say, yes, things are falling in to place here. I’m on good terms with my manager, boss is….meh.

        I guess my “block” so to speak is knowing how difficult it was being un/underemployed and just not wanting to go through that again, the uncertainty and all that. I know logically it may not be bc I’m more experienced and mature but I guess this is my thing to get over.

    7. Thlayli*

      Are you actively trying for a baby or planning to start trying in next year or two? If so I think benefits are your number 1 priority. And it can be very hard to find out what those are before you actually start working somewhere.

      However this is coming from an EU perspective where work maternity benefit could he up to 6 months paid leave. If you are US and you are only potentially losing 6 weeks of paid leave that’s a much smaller thing to lose out on.

      If you’re an accountant I’m sure you can quickly calculate the cost benefit analysis of staying and getting whatever maternity benefits you have now versus leaving and getting no maternity benefit at all. Include both maternity pay and health insurance etc. Work it out sum total over the months till the earliest you expect to give birth and see what salary you need to chase to break even.

      That doesn’t help with the emotional side but it might make it easier to see in black and white what the financial implication of leaving might be.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I’m actively trying. Unfortunately I have more complications in regards to getting pregnant and having a healthy pregnancy, so it’s hard to even estimate when I could give birth (right before tax season begins is a dream but that window is closed lol).

        1. Thlayli*

          It sounds like health insurance is a key factor for you then – I know in America that’s often linked to jobs so if that’s the case for you you need to make sure any new job has equal or better health insurance, and also you need to make sure maternity will be covered for you.

          If you could take ages to have a baby then I think you should “hope for the best, plan for the worst”. Ie keep trying and make sure you have health insurance etc as I said above in case you get lucky, but also keep moving forward in your life as if you won’t have a baby for a Long time – in this case by not delaying your job search until you have a baby.

          That’s my 2c anyway good luck whatever u decide. As they say on ttc fora: sticky baby dust!

    8. Thlayli*

      Are you actively trying for a baby or planning to start trying in next year or two? If so I think benefits are your number 1 priority. And it can be very hard to find out what those are before you actually start working somewhere.

      However this is coming from an EU perspective where work maternity benefit could he up to 6 months paid leave. If you are US and you are only potentially losing 6 weeks of paid leave that’s a much smaller thing to lose out on.

      If you’re an accountant I’m sure you can quickly calculate the cost benefit analysis of staying and getting whatever maternity benefits you have now versus leaving and getting no maternity benefit at all. Include both maternity pay and health insurance etc. Work it out sum total over the months till the earliest you expect to give birth and see what salary you need to chase to break even.

      That doesn’t help with the emotional side but it might make it easier to see in black and white what the financial implication of leaving might be.

      Also – this seems really obvious to me but just in case – you don’t have to choose between a new job and a baby. You can have both.

  18. Maswaki*

    Help! Please help anyone and everyone. I will be 35 this August, there’s a constant and nagging feeling of dissatisfaction with my entire life.

    When I finished school in 2008, I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do, but I knew I needed to work to make a living and pay my bills. That pretty much set the tone/path of my work life, but I’m tired of this pattern – the pattern of just doing honest work so the bills can be paid (there’s nothing wrong with that I know)

    However, I feel unfulfilled, stuck in a rut and stagnant. I feel like I haven’t grown or developed much professionally or personally, since leaving school.

    Most days I’m not even sure what I am doing with my life/time here on earth. I wake up demoralize with a zero sense of motivation. I drag myself off to work though because the bills need to be paid.

    Presently, I work as a personal assistant to a senior executive, I don’t like or enjoy it very much, I am looking to get out of my current role, change career paths and basically just start over in my life.

    I think I’m having a mid-life crisis as a single woman trying to figure out what I really want to do with my life. Making a fresh start in life appeals to me but I’m not sure where to begin from or how best to navigate this.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation? What did you do? How did you turn things around to create the life you want? Are there any helpful resources you can point me to?

    1. ZSD*

      I think this is common enough. Maybe you could start by doing some informational interviews with people in fields that you think might interest you.
      I’m sorry you’re feeling that you’re stagnating. I really do think it’s pretty common.
      Oh, in addition to looking for a new career field, try volunteering with a group that works on an issue you care about!

    2. silvertech*

      I have been in a somewhat similar situation. The one thing that helped me out the most was therapy: getting to the roots of my problems was the thing I needed the most. I got much needed clarity and also a diagnosis for an illness that was contributing to my poor quality of life (this might or might not be the case with you).
      I started reading Captain Awkward, she has a lot of posts dealing with the issues you describes. She has plenty of good advice and resources you could find useful.
      I know how it feels to be in your shoes, so I wish you the best of luck. Things can get better!

    3. LL*

      Seconding therapy and informational interviews, but I also had good experiences working with a job coach (after doing a few free phone consultations to find one that was a good fit). There are coaches who specialize in helping with career changes and unearthing your interests and strengths.

      On the strengths note (and much cheaper than getting a coach!), I recommend the StrengthsFinder test from Gallup. If you buy the e-book on amazon, you also get a link to take the test. It made me look at my work style and potential jobs much differently than I had. This is actually a test that has real research backing it up.

    4. La Revancha del Tango*

      If you want to make a fresh start I say do it! I used to feel the same way as you but then I realized I don’t really care about growing professionally. I’m an assistant and am overpaid for a job that maybe has an hour of work to do per day. I don’t like to work and have never had a job where I’ve been passionate about. I only do it so I can save money to retire early and move to Central America (and by early I mean REALLY early… I’m turning 30 soon and would like to do it within the next 7 years).

      I also realized that work is work and you shouldn’t be defined by what you do in your job. Do you have fun hobbies outside of work? Do you have goals in other areas of your life? This is what usually helps me and realizing that I could have a crappy paying job or a crappy boss or a job that I work 12 hours a day – all of which sound way worse than my boring 8-5.

      1. Kim Possible*

        I really like your take! I’m a 24 year old woman, working for a good company, and am very well paid. I’m not super passionate about my job my any means, but I do a good job while I’m there. Similarly to you, I only have about an hour of work to do every day, in an 8-5 job.

        I completely agree with you that you shouldn’t be defined by your job.When I graduated college a few years ago, I tried to put on a “career driven woman” facade for a while. I wanted to move up in my company, and make good money because that’s what I felt like I was expected to do as a woman in today’s society. Eventually, I realized that’s just not who I am. I’m content with my boring 8-5 job for the time being.

        My husband will be done with graduate school in less than a year, and will be making very good money once he lands a job. At that point, I’d like to work part-time doing something I’m passionate about (perhaps working for an animal shelter, or even just volunteering.) I’d love to have the flexibility to travel, and spend more time with family. I’m happy that my husband supports this decision, and doesn’t want me to do something I hate just because it “looks good” to everyone else.

        1. La Revancha del Tango*

          That sounds awesome!! I would love to work part time or volunteer one day. My husband makes about double what I make and is a pro investor. We are lucky!

      2. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

        I’m working on developing a similar attitude. I’m also in a job with very little work to do, but it’s been hard for me to appreciate that. However, I’m definitely a work-to-live person, not a career woman at all.

    5. Fawn*

      First off, not a doctor but I recognize what you’re describing as the symptoms I experience when I’m in an episode of depression. If you haven’t, you might want to get screened. I found CBT had a huge positive impact on my thought process. We focussed a lot in my program on setting small goals on the way to larger ones and identifying spiralling thought processes – both tools that help me get on track when things start to feel bleak.

      In terms of career development, could you find a (good) career counsellor to help you complete a skills and strengths inventory?

      1. Manders*

        Yes, this is definitely something to consider. Depression isn’t just extreme sadness, it can also show up as numbness or constant dissatisfaction and irritation.

        That said, working as a personal assistant can be a very difficult career path, and it’s worth it to try to change things up to see if that fixes the problem. Also, if you don’t have a hobby you’re really passionate about or a strong circle of friends, now’s the time to start thinking about what you can do outside of your job so you’re not just living to work.

    6. Coming Up Milhouse*

      Same. I’ll be 35 next month and I realize that I hate the industry that I’m in. I’m married but no kids and I just feel so deeply unsatisfied with my professional life that it’s why I’ve left jobs at the first opportunity presented to me.

    7. Channel Z*

      What did I do? I’m still doing it! I do change-ups/shake-ups, moving country, changing jobs, going back to school. BUT… the change works for a while, then the newness wears off and its same old, same old. The problem is me! So, I am soon to interview at a company in the industry I started out in. I have more realistic expectations this time around, and don’t expect it to bring me lifetime fulfilment. Since I still crave newness, I think I will try to channel that desire to trying new hobbies instead. Not sure what yet, but I’m fantasizing about water sports. I do wish I had an adventurous partner to share that with, but my husband resists change. Opposites attract, maybe?

      1. Marillenbaum*

        Sounds excellent! You do the watersports, and he can chill on the beach with a cocktail with a little umbrella in it.

      2. Emily S.*

        Trying new hobbies can be really fun.

        I recommend things like cycling and other sports (definitely go for the watersports, and try it out!), but also give baking a try. It can be really therapeutic, and you get delightful results with (often) not that much effort. It can be really fun to share with friends/family etc.

        These days, even if you have __x__ issue with diet (e.g. gluten-sensitive, diabetic etc.), there are cookbooks and reputable food blogs out there with lots of great recipes to try out.

        I also recommend gardening. Nurturing plants (even just a container garden indoors) can be therapeutic also, and fun.

      3. Product person*

        “I do change-ups/shake-ups, moving country, changing jobs, going back to school. BUT… the change works for a while, then the newness wears off and its same old, same old. The problem is me! So, I am soon to interview at a company in the industry I started out in. I have more realistic expectations this time around, and don’t expect it to bring me lifetime fulfilment.”

        Here’s a book that can help: So Good They Can’t Ignore You. It shows how jumping around may actually preven you from falling in love with the work you do, because it takes time to develop “career capital” and become valuable enough to start doing more interesting work. In the beginning, most jobs will be boring / lose their appeal after some time. But if you stick to it, you start to get better, and earn the right to do less repetitive work (which goes to the more junior people). And because you’re getting better and better at it and taking more challenging projects, you start to like your job more and more.

        Of course, this requires first being in a job that allows for expanding your horizons, which may not be the case for Maswaki. I was in this situation at some point, and ended up becoming a business analyst in the software space. Not for everyone, but I know tons of BAs who love what they do because of the variety of projects they tackle. If anyone here wants to check it out, this page: http://contentpicker.com/BA/ has some useful (and realistic) information about the field.

    8. Seal*

      Been there, done that. I got stuck for almost 13 years in a deadend job I took while finishing school. For years it supported my outside activities, but once I gave those up I realized I was in a very bad place. Worst, because I was very good at my job with little effort, I was the constant target of bullies. Needless to say, I was absolutely miserable all the time.

      Finally, at age 37 I’d had enough and started formulating an exit plan. I was able to come up with enough money to quit my job and take the summer off. It was alternatively terrifying and very freeing. I had a few vague ideas of what I was going to do next, but nothing concrete. So I spend the first few months doing very little, then by the end of the year needed to take a temporary job. That job and industry turned out to be far, FAR worse than the one I’d left. But the combination of that job and my time off gave me some much-needed clarity. After a few months of temping I managed to get a far better job in the industry I’d left, which I’d come to realize wasn’t as bad as I thought it was. A few years later I went to graduate school while working full-time, which ultimately lead to my current position.

      Reckless though it may have been, quitting my job with no prospects and taking the summer off was a turning point for me. I don’t know that I’d be able to do the same thing at this point in my life, but 15 years ago it was the best thing I could have done for myself. Right now I’m a middle manager who is on track to move into administration. Had I not jumped without a net 15 years ago, who knows where I’d be?

      My advice is if you can’t just walk away from your job and start over, you can still take steps to change your career path. If your employer has a tuition reimbursement program, take advantage of it. There are plenty of people – myself included – that have gotten additional degrees while working full time. Or just take classes for fun. Start volunteering. Start talking to the people you work with or even your boss about career alternatives. It really doesn’t matter what you do, so long as you do SOMETHING. You never know when you’ll find the one thing that will change your career path.

    9. Iris Eyes*

      I went through some similar issues a few years ago. I jumped hard and far and landed in a place I definitely didn’t want to be, personally or financially. A new hobby, taking a vacation to somewhere you have always dreamed about,
      The most helpful book that I read as far as attitude toward work and thinking about work was Every Good Endeavor by Tim Keller (he’s a pastor just FYI)

    10. ZenJen*

      My experience: I’m 44, divorced, and LOVE my life! I figured out what I wanted after the divorce was final, and I’m living it: I have a career-ish job, amazing friends and family, fun hobbies (writing, traveling, kayaking), and I am happy no matter what time of day it is.
      1–your job does NOT need to define your life or success. I’m successful, but I’d feel fulfilled if I sucked at work.
      2–figure out what you dreams are and how to achieve them. I do :-)

    11. Foreign Octopus*

      This is definitely a normal feeling. Everyone feels this.

      I felt this two years (although about ten years younger than you then) and what I did might not be helpful because I quit my job, moved to Spain, and began teaching English. It’s been the best decision I’ve ever made because I realise how much I love languages (not so much the teaching of it though) and that’s put me on a path towards a career in languages in the future. Before moving to Spain, I only spoke English but now I’m making strides in Spanish and the plan is eventually Chile in the next couple of years after Brexit becomes official (if it ever does).

      One resource I did find interesting and inspiration was Career Shifters (http://www.careershifters.org/). They’re based in the UK and offer careers counselling but proper counselling for people who want to change careers. There are also a large number of interviews with people who have done just that. You might be able to find other resources from there as well.

      For now though, do something that relaxes you and remember that life is a marathon and you don’t have to have everything sorted straight away.

      (Bit sickly sweet at the end but the point stands).

      Good luck.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        I’ve actually been on a Careershifters course here in the UK and found it very helpful to discover I really DO like what I am doing and I am in the right area for my skills and capabilities, the problem is that I am just not applying it in a way that I find satisfying. They do have some really good resources on the website, that’s for sure.

        I am also in a current career limbo but I know the ultimate goal and we are now trying to fill in the backwards path. It was one of my goals this year to sit back and explore new things (within a certain grouping I had already determined) and see what sticks. As part of that I was able to take a role that pays well but is a bit too “small” for me, so it gives me a lot of free time to think of things with little outside pressure. Finding a “bridge job” like that can be helpful as well, if you can’t outright quit.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Just my opinion but I believe we are supposed to have that naggy little voice that says, “Some thing needs to change here.” But the naggy little voice is annoying because it never identifies WHAT needs to change.

      From what I read here your top concern in life is paying the bills. It’s such a concern that you forego having developed a career because of it.
      I have a stupid question: What are you doing to help ease your concern with paying the bills? Do you write a budget? Do you stick to your budget? Does your budget allow you fun money? Do you routinely look for ways to reduce costs so that you worry less about paying the bills? In short when we have any concern of any type we need to develop an action plan to meet that concern.

      Next. What do you do to recharge you? Starting with the basics there is rest, exercise, healthy diet and water. On any given day are you hitting at least two of these things? Jobs will drain us without mercy. It’s important to realize that jobs can be very draining and it’s important to put good things into ourselves. No one tells us this when we start out. It would have been helpful to me to know that jobs can be an endurance contest. You wouldn’t run a 5k without prepping right? Same deal here, we gotta prep so we can endure.

      I’d recommend life coaching, this is someone who will sit down with you and help you set up goals. We need goals the way we need food and water. It’s absolutely necessary for life. The people that I see struggling the most are the folks who have no goals. Life coaching should help you look around you with fresh eyes for opportunities that you have been ignoring or blocked from seeing.

    13. sarakg*

      I was definitely in the same situation, except my old career was one that lots of people think of as their ‘dream job’. I hated it, and was so bored and just generally frustrated with my life. I started doing some casual web development work on the side, mostly for fun. I taught myself how to use WordPress, and then did some online code learning (Code Academy, Treehouse, etc.). I liked it so much that I started trying to figure out how to make that my career.

      I found a local short course that I could take in web development. The one I took was a really good fit for me (there’s others in town that weren’t, so definitely do your research!). I quit my job in April 2016, finished my 12 week course at the end of June and had a great full-time job in September (I did some freelancing/temping/vacationing last summer). I’m still in that job, and it’s going great.

      Nothing’s perfect, but I don’t hate going to work everyday, I’m making nearly 2x what I was making at my last job), and there’s a lot of room for growth and development in my new job (both at this company and if I decide to change jobs).

      Everyone says I was so brave, but really, I hated so much about my life back then, that it just sort of stopped feeling optional at a certain point. I still struggle with depression and anxiety, changing jobs wasn’t a magic fix for that, but I can at least focus on dealing with that more actively.

      Good luck!

    14. ..Kat..*

      Well, the fact that you don’t have a lot to do is in your favor. You can pay for your current lifestyle while exploring alternatives. Many people have suggested therapy, and that can be very helpful.

      When you say you finished school, do you mean college? If so, and if you still live near your college, their career center can give you an aptitude test that may be able to point you to general career areas that would suit you. I did this and it helped me.

      What also helped me was to just get out there and volunteer and take junior college night classes.

      I was a computer programmer, but didn’t feel really engaged with my work. So, I lived in a very tiny apartment and kept my expenses low. I had taken American Red Cross first aid courses as a child (about 8 hours of instruction), but always wanted to know more. Flipping through the adult classes brochure from my local community college, I saw an Emergency Medical Technician (EMT) class. Took the class, volunteered with my local volunteer fire department, decided I preferred healthcare to computer programming, went to nursing school. Now I have a career I love (except for my current, temporary manager- see post below).

      So my advice is to cut your expenses, save money, and take community college night classes that catch your fancy. Or perhaps volunteer in fields that interest you.

      Good luck.

    15. Ramona Flowers*

      I burned out in my old career and realised I felt like I was stuck in it – but that’s how my dad had felt about his career. He never switched fields even when he had a long period of unemployment as he thought he had to use his degree and couldn’t do anything else, he believed he had no practical skills and he wasn’t willing to try retraining.

      I wrote out all the beliefs about work that were making me feel stuck and was absolutely shocked to discover they were all my dad’s beliefs. Under those, I found my own real beliefs. I discovered that I wanted to switch fields, and that I was desperate to retrain but had been thinking ‘one day’. I told myself: okay, time to pick a day.

      I was already in therapy at this point which helped me do this figuring out of stuff.

      From there, I thought about what I liked to do and what I never wanted to do again – must haves and must not haves for my next profession. Went back to grad school as I managed to get a funding award. Worked a part-time job and volunteered to get relevant experience and references. Lived with a much reduced budget. Read a lot of careers articles on sites like The Muse. Nosed in a lot of people’s LinkedIn profiles. Found AAM and read the hell out of it.

      Therapy would be a wise place to start as it can help you get to know what you want and what’s driving your feelings. I went into therapy thinking I was there because I felt crappy for no reason. Turned out I was there because my family were abusive and I hated my job.

      1. Maswaki*

        Sorry this is coming late I have been off the grid, but better late than never.
        Thanks everyone for weighing in on this. I really appreciate the feedback and I am taking it to heart.
        Cheers

  19. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

    Has anyone had experience managing out a “bad fit”? We hired a plant manager who seemed to be exactly what we were looking for, and he’s turned out to…not. He has no inclination (ability?) to manage people, and is absolutely not the strong leader he made himself out to be (which his references confirmed). In addition, he is not proactive at all in identifying problems, but waits for them to blow up. The relevant managers are meeting with him today to go over a PIP plan, but we all view it as a bit of a formality before the inevitable firing. Do you see that as a reasonable way to approach it? This is the first time we’ve been in this situation.

    1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      ETA: The PIP plan does identify specific things that he needs to improve, but we really don’t feel like it’s going to happen.

    2. neverjaunty*

      That is reasonable. You are making the expectations clear and giving him the information he needs to improve, if he chooses to.

      Do you mean that his references confirmed he’s not a good manager?

        1. Jadelyn*

          …which makes me wonder if they were full of it, or if he’s just checked out on this job for whatever reason. If it’s the latter, maybe the PIP will snap him out of it.

          1. Really*

            Could be a case of great guy, does his work well but had little to no experience at this level of management so no way for any reference to be able to tell you how he would do.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      We had a situation where the manager wasn’t good at managing, he knew it and his superiors knew it. So they offered him a staff position and he accepted it. You have to have a really unique individual to handle this kind of transition, but he was OK explaining to his co-workers that he just wasn’t a good manager and wanted to contribute on the staff level.

    4. The Resource for all Things Human*

      I think that’s the best approach. We had a similar situation where we hired a guy that did some embellishing on his resume and he was a total nightmare. Luckily for us he quit two weeks into his PIP which saved us a few months of headache. Hope your bad fit sees the writing on the wall and saves you the trouble.

    5. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

      Well, we met with him a few minutes ago, and his supervisor was very direct that this was make-or-break for him. He took it very well, and asked to think it over over the weekend before he signed. I’ll be curious if he’s going to come in and tender his resignation on Monday or sign off to postpone the inevitable a couple of weeks.

  20. Sydney Bristow*

    I’m in the beginning stages of job searching and I’m wondering how to find people to ask for references. I’ve been in the same job for over nine years since college. I don’t want my superiors or co-workers to know that I’m looking. I have great relationships with a few current clients, but they would be upset to know I’m leaving my job, and would likely need to tell my bosses, since this will affect them and our projects. Even former clients that I can think of are still tight with my company and bosses, so I’m having trouble thinking of who to turn to. I’m not close with any college professors. I have a former boss who likes me and could be an option, but I owe her a favor, and she may also may not be thrilled to be a reference because if I leave my current job, I’m less likely to be able to repay the favor any time soon.

    Any thoughts or advice from those of you who have been in a similar situation?

    1. LL*

      Do you have people you worked closely with who left the organization during your time there? Are there people working at your level on the same projects who you might let in on you job-searching?

      Since you need three and their a former boss, you should definitely use them if you can. Just write a very nice request and say you’re searching again. You may owe them a favor but it’s not like you should make it feel like you’re “pay someone back” for a reference.

      1. Sydney Bristow*

        To be clear — this former boss left my company to go somewhere else — I’ve been only at this company in my professional life. I will definitely give more consideration to reaching out to her.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I second asking the former boss you mentioned and any other former supervisor or mentor you’ve had. Usually if they have a good opinion of you, they’d be happy to do it even if you hadn’t been in touch in a few years because they want you to do well. I just asked someone from 12 years ago if he could provide a reference if needed (for a particular case where the value of his reference > the recency of the information) and he was happy to.

      I’m not sure about reaching out to former clients – I would think a quick explanation that you’d love a reference from them but need to keep it private would be enough for them to agree and not spill the beans – but I don’t know enough about that kind of work culture.

    3. EnviroEducator*

      Yeah, I’ve had some times in my life where finding appropriate references stressed me out. Some ideas, in addition to the good idea of former coworkers and supervisors at your current company who now work elsewhere:
      – Do you volunteer anywhere? Could you ask some leaders at those places to act as references?
      – Are there any people at your current company who aren’t in your chain of supervision, but still familiar with your work, who you could trust to be discreet about your job search?

      Sorry, this isn’t very helpful, is it…

  21. ElCamino*

    It’s been a really stressful few weeks at work – we got word that our whole organization is going to have to restructure, and today a pretty significant amount of people were let go. The company did what they could to offer a pretty considerate severance package but I still feel so awful for everyone involved. I’m lucky in that I’m keeping my job but my department’s essentially cut in half and obviously my role will be changing moving forward.

    How do you deal with layoff survivor guilt/anxiety?

    1. LL*

      I don’t have any big solutions, but it helped me a lot to be in touch with my coworkers and not isolate myself. We would take short walks to chat or go to lunch together. It was good to be open about feeling and questions among the “survivors” and we came up with good questions for management. We tried not to get stuck in the negativity of it and drag each other down, but it was good to recognize a painful situation together.

      It’s also important to keep in touch with the people leaving even if it’s just to say “this sucks!”

      1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        At my last job they did a a bunch of layoffs, then a few more and then a few more…
        It was a pretty toxic place to work, so we dealt with the stress/tension by joking about it. ie ‘I haven’t seen Max for a while, has he been let go?’. I personally dealt with it by sharpening up my CV and cover letter. Even though everyone agreed I was ‘Safe’ ie there were two of us in my role, I was the competent one. I was not safe, so as soon as I was told they were planning to boot me I started searching fully (I’d been half searching before). They actually ended up keeping me as I went part time instead, but I kept job hunting as I knew I wasn’t safe.

        I actually ended up getting the first job I applied for after finding out the news (Which has turned out to be amazing).

    2. ThatGirl*

      I worked at my last company for 9 years. Seemed like there were at least five rounds of layoffs in that time. Often we knew it was coming, but back in March, half my department was outsourced without warning – including me.

      Try not to feel too guilty. I am not upset at anyone who kept their jobs, because it had been me previously. Do keep in touch with people you were close to, if possible, and offer to help/be a reference if applicable.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This. I’ve been on both sides of layoffs. Sometimes it’s a one-off and sometimes it’s part of a wave of RIFs, but people who stay don’t usually feel very safe and people who leave might be better off than you, or they, expected.

        What helped was having people who were staying make a point of talking to me about it. I’m a little miffed that a few people I thought would say something just … seemed to avoid me, which made me feel like they didn’t care whether I was there or not. Two minutes of “sorry to see you go, what do you think you might do next?” means a lot. Sincere and relatively brief, letting the laid off person kind of guide the conversation (if they’re excited about new opportunities, be happy for them; if they’re bitter and unhappy, commiserate in a low key way). Big puppy eyes and lots of sympathy was not particularly helpful to me because it made me feel like I had to go overboard explaining how this was really a good thing for me (it was).

    3. JustaTech*

      The first time my work had big layoffs (which they handled pretty poorly) we:
      1) went way far away for lunch (so we didn’t have to watch the people leaving in tears)
      2) en-mass left early and went to the first open bar we found (with our boss’s blessing) (it was a Friday, and no one got wasted)
      3) Waited a week or two to get in touch with the people who’d been laid off to offer to be references and tell them specifically why we’d enjoyed working with them
      4) brushed up our resumes
      5) were pretty pissed about the whole thing
      6) worked our collective butts off

      So, survivor guilt: make genuine offers to help the people who got laid off and don’t complain about work if you see them socially.
      Anxiety: polish your resume and try to make sure the people making the cuts know you’re a “value add” (don’t actually know how to do that).

    4. Chaordic One*

      In my case, the survivor guilt didn’t last very long.

      Following the layoffs I had way too much work dumped on me and I was so stressed out myself that I didn’t have a second to think about anything else. My supervisors were no help in establishing priorities and bluntly refused to take anything off of my plate.

      If I had been thinking more clearly I would have spent more time dusting off my resume and making more of an effort to apply for a new job, rather than wasting my effort at job that had devolved into a soul-crushing toxic cess pool.

  22. Mouse*

    Question about applying to multiple jobs at the same company! I’m looking for entry-level jobs, and a company I’d really like to work for just posted a bunch. They’re really, really similar- essentially the same function in different departments (think: Teapot Assistant: Chocolate, Teapot Assistant: Vanilla, Teapot Assistant: Mint, etc). I know the general advice is to refrain from applying to a bunch of jobs at one company, but the descriptions are almost exactly the same! I already applied to the “teapot type” I’d like to work with most, but I’m wondering if I should apply to others, too. The apps all go to a general “recruiting” email address.

    To make things slightly more complicated, I have a contact who works for this company now, and he said he passed my materials directly on to the hiring manager as well. Does that change things? I don’t want to affect his reputation too!

    1. SansaStark*

      I did this at the company where I currently work, but it was just for 2 different jobs. I had one year experience in vanilla and chocolate teapot making, so I applied to both the advertised vanilla teapot and chocolate teapot assistant jobs. Turns out that by the time I was called in for the vanilla job, they had already filled the chocolate job…but the boss wanted to swap me for the chocolate person. The company didn’t allow that, but when that employee moved on, I was able to shift to the chocolate assistant position, which is a better fit for me long-term. Anyway, long story short, I think if you have a little background in that type of work, it would make sense for you to apply to a couple of jobs in the same department. I think having a contact would probably help in this case because it gives you some credibility that you’re not just sending a ton of resumes to every company or something.

    2. NotThatGardner*

      I don’t have a ton of experience in this but my take — if you didn’t have a contact who had already directly passed your materials onto the hiring manager, I might say go for it re: submitting multiple applications – though I’d still err on the cautious side of that, since the general recruiting address is probably combed through by the same person.

      Since you do have a contact who directly handed over and vouched for you, I think that is enough of extra “oomph” to show you’d be good for the company. I’ve definitely applied places with multiple similar openings, and after an interview been contacted with some sort of “we found a better fit for this particular TA:Chocolate department but liked you, would you be interested in talking to TA:Mint as well?” kind of thing.

    3. EA*

      I think a big company with multiple similar openings is sort of the exception to the rule.

      The point was don’t apply to anything and everything so you look unfocused. This doesn’t really apply if it is the same job.

    4. Detective Right-All-The-Time*

      If these are applications that you are emailing in to a generic email address, I would say apply to one and leave it be. You can mention your interest in the other areas in the initial interview/phone screen. This is what I lean toward since you say your resume has been passed to the hiring manager as well. Multiple emails to the same address, plus your resume in the hands of the hiring manager will be more off-putting than helpful to whoever reviews applications

      However, if these are applications in an online system/HRIS where you have a profile and you can see your applications/progress, I would say apply to a COUPLE but definitely not every single one. Whoever is reviewing applications will be able to see that you’ve applied and are interested in multiple areas.

  23. silvertech*

    Reasons why it’s important to do well while temping: I have opened my own business, and to earn some extra money I also work temp jobs on the side. I got a temp job at *very important local event* and a very easy one, they liked me so much that they asked me to work some extra weeks! And they had told me they had no budget for that, so clearly I must have done a good job, yay! I also got a bunch of contacts that are very interesting for my own business, so I’m very happy.

    The not so good note is that I can’t believe how rude some people can be: I had two clients ghost me this week, it’s the first time it happens. I have no idea why, and I stopped trying to get in touch since they are not answering anymore. There were no contracts, my job is not one where they are needed in most cases; if there were, I wouldn’t stop trying to contact them. It’s so annoying though, but I guess I have to accept it as a part of having a business…

    1. Jadelyn*

      My last temp job turned into full-time regular, which grandboss had to fight for since my current position literally didn’t exist, but they did fight for me because I contributed so much to the team, and I’m still here 3.5 years later, so I can second the importance of making a good impression while temping, lol.

    2. Gaia*

      Also: my company regularly hires temps into perm positions. We often don’t have a perm position open when we bring in a temp but at some point during their tenure one may open up. If they have done a great job, we’ll bring them on. If not, bypass and keep looking. Several of our top performers started as temps and are now happily perm.

  24. Anonymous fatty*

    Earlier this week, I was minding my own business, walking down the hall, when a guy I barely know (I’ve been in some meetings with him but never spoken with him one-on-one) walked up beside me and started telling me about his gastric bypass surgery, which he considers the best thing he’s ever done. Then he told me I should get the surgery, because our insurance pays for it and it’s only about $500 out of pocket.

    Thanks, dude. What woman doesn’t want random coworkers walking up to her and basically saying, “Hi! You’re so fat you should get weight loss surgery!”?

    3. Casper Lives*

      What a *rude words*! I can’t believe he thought it was acceptable to comment about your body to a random, non-friend coworker. I’m also fat, and I don’t know if I could avoid sharp words if a coworker did this to me. You’ve got my sympathy.

      1. Anonymous fatty*

        I wish I could say I had a snappy comeback, but I was so embarrassed that all I could say was, “Um, ok, good to know.”

        1. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

          What an a**. My PO’ed self would have probably said “have you checked if our insurance covers lobotomies, because you probably need one.”.

    6. Drew*

      If he brings it up again, give him a blank look and say, “But why would I be interested?” Return the awkward to sender!

      1. The Queen of Cans & Jars*

        Oh, I love this! This would work as a great response to all kinds of rude “advice.”

    7. motherofdragons*

      Wooooow. Wow. Don’t even know what else to say. Like, congrats dude? But also, you’re an a**hole??

    8. Channel Z*

      You could quote yourself there, “So you are saying I’m so fat I need weight loss surgery?!”
      How about, “I think I will bypass your medical advice, thanks.”

    10. Jadelyn*

      Wow. I think an icy “Excuse me?” and hard stare might be something to level on him if he does it again, that’s absolutely unacceptable.

    11. LKW*

      Consider where it’s coming from though. This is someone who has been in your shoes. It’s still rude and unwelcome but it does come from a good place.

      1. Anonymous fatty*

        Oh yeah, I know he thought he was being helpful. I actually have looked into weight loss surgery, and I am interested in other people’s first-hand experiences with it… BUT, it is a very personal thing, and not something I wish to discuss with coworkers, especially ones I barely know. I also consider it pretty rude for people to give unsolicited medical advice, particularly when it is based on an observation about my body, and for something that has a great deal of social stigma.

        1. Sassy Sally*

          Would just like to add my two cents here, as I’m going through the insurance approval process for WLS right now (psych eval, supervised diet, nutrition appointments, endoscopy). There is a HUGE community of WLS folks on instagram that are very supportive and you can learn a lot through their journeys, if that’s a route you’re considering! Wishing you the best of luck and health in whatever choice you make! <3

      2. Jadelyn*

        To be blunt, I don’t care where it’s coming from (and I disagree that “you should have this surgery to make your body conform to a social standard” is a “good place” for something to come from in the first place, but that’s my opinion and you may not share it). Why try to drum up sympathy for someone who is utterly and completely out of line in having said what he said?

        Also, someone saying this to me has NOT “been in my shoes”, because my shoes are fat-positive/body-positive and taking a HAES approach to managing my body and my health, not struggling with my weight or wanting to lose weight.

        This could, additionally, be a really triggering comment if it’s made to someone who’s got a history of eating disorders. I could see this causing a fast, ugly spiral of shame and relapse, to have someone basically walk up and say “Hey, I noticed you’re fat. You should try not being fat!”

        Like, there’s literally no part of this that is okay, and I don’t see why it matters that the comment may, possibly, maybe, if you squint at it in the right light, have come from a good place.

        1. Jadelyn*

          (To clarify, the “in my shoes” bit was not about my having experienced this scenario, but an example that just because someone is fat, doesn’t mean we’ve all got the same experience or feelings about it.)

        6. Floundering Mander*

          Thanks for this. A very good friend of mine has recently had WLS, and though we are of similar body types I know that our paths to fatness have been quite different and while surgery was what she felt was best for her I’d never consider it myself. It was a bit tricky to navigate congratulating her without inadvertently bringing my own feelings into it, but she understands my views are quite different and she’d never try to convince me to do it because I’m also fat.

      3. KellyK*

        He hasn’t necessarily been in her shoes, though. They share a body type, not necessarily a health history or similarities in anything else about their lives. Assuming that he knows enough about her by looking at the shape of her body that she should go have major surgery isn’t just rude, but wrong. Besides which, everybody has heard of gastric bypass surgery. If he talks about his own experience, then any coworkers who are interested can ask him for recommendations *if they want.*

        Fat people are expected to just suck up a lot of abuse because it’s supposedly well-intentioned, and I don’t think that’s really our obligation.

        1. Jadelyn*

          That last line in particular is so, so critical. It’s demanding that we take on emotional labor for the people around us by taking cruel comments “in the spirit they were intended”, and that’s not okay.

      4. Anon for this*

        I’m not sure why his presumed good intent excuses his unacceptable behavior. Would there be the same minimization of this if he had told her about the great deal his wife got on breast augmentation surgery? And how it helped her self-esteem so much? I think not. It is rude to comment on other people’s bodies. Period.

      5. N.J.*

        I would like to voice a strongly dissenting opinion. How is paying enough attention to a coworker’s body, female or not, to have formed an opinion on their weight, the appropriateness of their weight, the poorhealth effects of their weight and the success they would have with less drastic and dangerous methods of weight reduction (exercise, nutrition etc), as well as forming some sort of opinion on their medical fitness to undergo a major procedure….come from a good place? It comes from a disgusting, judgmental, proprietary (your body is in the public space so I have a right to judge it acceptable or not) and deeply inappropriate place. Not a place of solidarity or comradery. That’s how I would interpret an overture like that.

      6. Observer*

        No, it does NOT!

        If he’s been in her place he should know very well how horrible it is to have someone just come up to you and say something like that.

        At best, he’s concern trolling which does not come from a place of kindness.

    12. Mischa*

      What a dick! I can’t even imagine what compels you to say something like that to someone you barely know. Or someone you do know. Mind your own business, people!

    13. Not So NewReader*

      “So, you are telling me that you think I am too fat and I should have weight loss surgery?”

      I think the surgeon accidently removed this guy’s common sense.

    15. Former Retail Manager*

      So sorry….big girl here as well. I’ve been asked by a co-worker I barely know if I was pregnant (don’t even carry a disproportionate amount of weight in my stomach) and have also had co-workers extoll the virtues of various types of gastric surgery to me. I think they come from a place of trying to be helpful while also assuming that because they hated being fat/had awful health issues to the extent that they were willing to undergo life changing surgery for it, that you must feel the same/have similar health issues. I just say thanks but that I have no plans to go that route, but I’m glad they seem happy/healthy/whatever. Not much else you can do. I find it similar to people who have gotten Botox/lip fillers/etc. and love the results so much they suggest it to everyone they know for a period of time because if they had wrinkles and got Botox then if you have wrinkles you must want Botox too!

      As a side note, if you’re happy with your weight, then shrug off this guy and rock what you’re working with!

    18. ..Kat..*

      Well, I have two responses here. My first thought is to ask Elizabeth West to kick him with her skates on. But my second thought is that he is trying to be empathetic and helpful. Weight loss surgery made a positive difference in his life, so he wants other people to reap the benefits of it as well. He just didn’t think about how inappropriate it was to say this to you. He made huge assumptions. But he meant well.

      Stay true and strong on the path that works for you.

      1. Observer*

        I disagree that he meant well. Concern trolling is more like it.

        Anyone who was heavy enough to warrant weight loss surgery covered by insurance should know just how bad unsolicited comments like this are.

  25. Tara*

    My office is going paperless, and wants to call the digital folder where we store all incoming receipts and documentation the “Repository.” I hate that term, but Inbox and Waiting were not popular. Does anyone have suggestions for a better term than “Repository”?

    2. LL*

      Vault
      Company Inbox
      Archive
      Just “the server” or “the cloud”?

      …. we had a local server for a long time at my current job, and unfortunately named it after a recently-deceased celebrity, so I feel your pain.

      1. hermit crab*

        Oh no!

        Before we moved to Sharepoint, our share drives all had Greek mythology names. People would walk around grumbling about how Zeus wasn’t letting them save.

    4. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

      I have a ‘Processing’ folder, You could also use ‘In Progress’ maybe?

      Also agreed, Repository is too close to Suppository for me.

    6. AndersonDarling*

      We like using “Mall.” Report Mall, Receipt Mall, Deposit Mall…and we have pictures of malls on the folders.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Ooh! Call it Records and have a picture of a gramophone on it. Yes. Or just lean on the keyboard and use whatever your forehead produces.

    10. Ashie*

      I have to say, I sort of love “Repository.” It conjures images of a 19th century banker with a bushy moustache and a green visor in a dark wood office with iron bars.

      2. BadChildhoodMemory*

        Or Depository.
        But not Suppository, which unfortunately is the word I think of when I hear “Repository.”

      1. KellyK*

        Nope, that’s perfect. The Oubliette, where files go to be forgotten completely and die alone.

    12. Ron McDon*

      It’s called a cabinet where I work, which I like because it makes me think of nicely ordered filing cabinets.

      2. hermit crab*

        Count me as another vote for “cabinet”! Alternatively, you could go really old-school and use “depot” or even “magazine.” Or maybe you could pretend the folders are airport terminals and call them “arrivals” and (if you have a similar one for outgoing items) “departures.”

        I manage a little reporting system where we have spaces called (approximately) “Applicant Area” (for incoming stuff, because we process permit applications), “Reviewer Area” (for our internal working files), “Record Area” (for the final stuff), and “Resource Library” (for reference materials). Please be more creative than this! :)

        1. BadChildhoodMemory*

          Even without an airport (or bus/train depot) metaphor, “Arrivals” is actually a really good name, I think. Or “New Arrivals.”

          If people would like a cheekier name, I like “The Trap.” “Does anyone have that receipt we were waiting for?” “Not yet, but I’ll see what’s in The Trap.”

    13. Mephyle*

      I like Repository. It’s a good description. Also, I didn’t think of ‘suppository’ until others mentioned it, but why would this be a problem? It could be a joke that keeps on giving for years and years.

    15. Toph*

      I don’t have an alternate suggestion, and your certainly welcome to your word-preferences, but just wanted to throw out there that it is very common to call a shared drive/folder/place-for-files that are intended as a sort of “everyone start here” as the repository. If the folder you’re discussing here is more like an “incoming to be filed elsewhere once done with” then I agree with you, respository isn’t right, not because of anything inherently wrong with the term but because it carries other connotations.

    16. Boötes*

      Staging Folder, Marshalling Folder, Hot Potatoes, The Well, Purgatory, The Last Place You Look (as in, “where’s the thing?” “It should be in the last place you look”), or, more optimistically, The First Place You Look.

    17. Boötes*

      Siberia, The Moon, My Car, The Queen’s Purse, The Mind of Elon Musk (or whoever), Disarray, Hibernation, Torpor.

      Or something that goes well with the prefix in-, eg Conceivable, Advisable.

      I doubt any of those are helpful. Just daydreaming :) — and besides, I rather like Repository for reasons listed by others above.

  26. LL*

    Does anyone have any recommendations (or links to articles here!) about handling my notice period the best I can? I just let my boss know that I will be returning to school in the fall, which gives us seven weeks. It’s possible I’ll stay working part-time after this period, but that would look very different, so early September is really the end of my work as it is now.

    I’m lucky that I have a manager who wasn’t upset about the news and has already talked to me about some priorities. He even has realistic expectations about what projects can be finished! Still, I’ve been in this company, at this role, for almost five years, and any tips are helpful … from documenting things to telling co-workers and keeping goodbyes from being too awkward.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      It doesn’t have to be awkward if you don’t make it awkward. I’ve given notice months in advance before (one time it was seven months in advance). As long as you keep doing a good job and don’t slack off, and you document as much as you can, it should be fine.

      In terms of telling co-workers, I think that’s something you should figure out together with your manager. When I’ve worked at schools, we tend to keep it fairly quiet until closer to the end so as not to make it too disruptive to the students I was working with. Sounds as if you’re at more of an adults-only company, though, so I would probably just tell everyone right away.

    2. Bigglesworth*

      I wrapped up my six weeks notice in June due to the fact that I was moving across country to attend law school. One of the things I did was completely update my training binder with all of the current and upcoming processes that my desk would have to handle. I separated it out with tabs and each section had the steps written out in such a way to make the process easy to understand. I did have one of my supervisors looks through before I left in case she had any questions or needed any clarification.

      My department had a farewell party for me and that’s where I said goodbye to most of the people in my department. I’ve made a few close friends, though, and I said goodbye to them individually during my last week.

      Other than that, work just as hard as you normally would and don’t slack off. Keep an open line of communication going with your boss so that they’re updated with your priorities and projects.

      Good luck in school!

      1. LDP*

        I was coming here to suggest writing down all the steps to anything you’re responsible for! Since I’m interviewing, I’ve been in the process of doing that at my current job. I try to take screenshots when possible and explain everything to the point where even someone who had no experience with any of the programs I’m talking about could figure it out.

        I’ve also gotten the advice from my uncle that you should work at least as hard as you normally would, and make sure you leave everything in as good of a position as possible. (Apparently he’s had some employees who put in their notice and basically stopped working, and let things pile up that should have been taken care of long before they left.)

        Congrats on going back to school!

  27. KR*

    Really worried I won’t get something done and my manager will hate me and fire me. Partially anxiety and partially justified.

    1. KR*

      Also my work credit card got compromised and I’m pretty much at my credit limit. I have legitimate work expenses to pay for so it’s a waiting game until they resolve my claim.

    2. On Fire*

      Virtual internet hugs if you want them. If this is a pattern problem, it might help to develop a time budget (if time is the reason you might not get it done). Having a plan/time budget will both help keep you on track, and may help with your anxiety *because you have a plan.*

      If it’s a one-time flub, it’s less likely that you’ll be fired if your manager is reasonable. Either way, if you’re able to say, “I wasn’t able to finish because of XYZ, but here’s my plan (to correct, to make sure it doesn’t happen again, whatever)” that should go a long way toward fixing this.

      1. KR*

        I agree about the plan. I’ve just been doing what I can to make it happen. Part of it is that we need x service done before VIP visits in early September, but everyone in the area is booked and cannot do x service for us. Everyone in the close major city that does x service says they don’t travel to us to do the job (required). I just found a service provider that is willing to help us but because everyone else is busy he’s pretty much my only hope to get this done on time which leaves me at his mercy if he isn’t timely or overcharged or doesn’t pass our health and safety standards or doesn’t do a good job, ect.

      2. KR*

        Thank you for your comment too. It’s helping me feel better. My husband doesn’t really understand my work so he’s been no help what so ever.

    3. EnviroEducator*

      Be open with your boss! Explain what’s going on! Life is unpredictable and if you can realize early on that something isn’t going to happen on time, it’s much better to be up front about that immediately and work together to plan a realistic new timeline. You got this!

      1. KR*

        Thank you so much. You’re right that I just need to let him know. You’ve all helped me feel so much better.

  28. Lumen*

    I need to know if I should bring this to my supervisor (Jane) or not:

    When I came in this morning my laptop had been removed from its dock and placed in a different corner of my cubicle. I have a feeling this is someone trying to make a ‘point’ to me about leaving it on the dock when I am not in the office.

    When I first started I asked our group manager (Sally, Jane’s superior) about what I should do with my computer in the evening, and she said logging off should be fine, but didn’t say that it needed to be taken with me or locked up every night. I also have seen other people leaving their laptops docked while not in the office.

    A while ago (I’m not sure when, but several months) my coworker Alice expressed concern about this and told me that I had to lock it up or take it with me every day, and I didn’t think it was worth pushing back on at the time. However, since then I have started leaving it docked again, because it cuts off the time that I am sitting at my desk waiting for it to boot up every morning. Since I’m hourly, that’s also time that I’m at work but can’t get paid for work because I can’t clock in.

    So that’s why I think one of my coworkers came into my cube and moved my laptop, which is really frustrating. I don’t mess with my coworker’s desks and I don’t want them messing with mine. No one has talked to me about it or taken responsibility, but I’m thinking I should reach out to my supervisor and a) ask her to clarify the policy and b) maybe bring it up to the team to leave each other’s desks alone.

    What do you guys think?

    1. Allison*

      I think it’s good to clarify the policy, but it’s really crappy that someone messed with your stuff. If it was really a problem, either your boss or someone from IT should say something. Your coworker should mind her own business.

      It also could have been that someone used your cubicle when you were out, and moved your laptop so they could dock theirs. Which is also not cool, but does happen.

      1. Lumen*

        Thanks Allison. In this case I don’t think someone was using my desk. We have several nearby with docks and monitors. Also, the battery was not drained and it had not gone to sleep, so I’m fairly sure it was moved this morning.

        Sadly, the coworkers I think are responsible for this are more than a little on the passive-aggressive side. Which is why I’m not going to go around the office asking about it (which is the reward they’re looking for). Either they will eventually out themselves because they need to know if it upset me/if I “learned my lesson” or they’ll just do it again/escalate. That’s why I don’t want to ignore it, either.

        I totally agree: if this was an issue my boss or IT should have said something. It wasn’t my coworker’s business to begin with, and it’s seriously not okay to go moving stuff around on my desk.

      1. Caro in the UK*

        Yep. I was going to say to let it go, until you mentioned the clocking in.

        I’d reach out to your supervisor, mainly to clarify the policy, but you can also mention in passing that your laptop was moved and ask how you should handle that if it happens again. (Providing supervisor confirms that leaving it docked is fine.)

        1. motherofdragons*

          This is exactly what I was going to suggest. Clarify the policy with your supervisor, and if you confirm that it’s OK to leave your laptop on the dock, you can mention it was moved. That will also give you ammo if coworkers like Alice get on your case again in the future: “Actually, Boss said it’s totally fine to leave it docked, so that’s what I’m going to do!”

          I really hate people moving/using my things without asking me, so this would frustrate me so much.

          1. Lumen*

            Yeah, I’m… struggling a bit this morning. I’m even more territorial and protective of my space than most, so this has me so angry when I think about it I’m shaking a little. Not going to let this ruin my day, but I’m… yeah. I’m livid.

            1. kittymommy*

              I sympathize. This is a huge pet peeve of mine and I used to have a co worker who would rearrange my entire desk when I went on vacation because she thought it was better that way.
              I would speak with your boss, first to clarify policy and then to see what can be done about someone moving your computer, especially since it’s affecting your ability to start the day on time.

              1. Not So NewReader*

                Agreed. This is especially important because you are angry. It’s fine to have emotions, it’s what we do with the emotions that matters. Take that excess energy and build yourself a plan, OP.

                1. Lumen*

                  Thank you guys for your validating comments. It really does help to know that my anger about this is justified.

    4. Drew*

      You could certainly ask her if someone was working at your desk because things were moved around and your computer was undocked. Any decent manager would take a dim view of an employee randomly disordering someone else’s work space, so if this wasn’t authorized, hopefully she would handle it from there.

      1. Lumen*

        Sadly, no. I’ll keep ‘laptop dock lock’ in the back of my mind if this doesn’t get handled though. I just wrote an email to my supervisor explaining the background, what happened, and asking her to clarify the policy for me. I mentioned briefly that I don’t think moving things around on my desk was the right way for this to be addressed by anyone, but that I want to know if I’m doing something wrong.

        And if I’m not, then I’m going to ask her how I should handle it if this happens again. I really like working for Jane, but she sometimes doesn’t push back enough on her own staff when they act out, and I need to know that she’s going to take care of this if it escalates.

        :(

    6. Lumen*

      Quick update: my boss just used our office IM to tell me she is following up with a few people to find out if there is an actual policy and what it is, and will let me know. She also said “I don’t like that at all… no one should be touching your stuff”.

      3. knitcrazybooknut*

        I’m glad you’re getting support from your boss! A student employee readjusted my chair all to hell once, and it took me 20 minutes to get it back in line. ARGH. I know how you feel, and I hate passive agressive behavior. Say it or leave it alone forever.

        Great job coping. Good luck!

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t think it’s crappy for someone to move it if it’s genuinely a security issue, but to not say anything afterwards about it, that’s weird. I work in IT at a school, and if I see an unsecured laptop, you bet I will move it to a more secure location… but then I will email the person who owns the laptop to let her know that I’ve moved it and why.

      However, since then I have started leaving it docked again, because it cuts off the time that I am sitting at my desk waiting for it to boot up every morning.

      Is it possible to just put the laptop to sleep instead of shutting it down completely? Even older laptops will wake up fairly quickly (either instantly or within a few seconds), as opposed to a cold boot-up that can take several minutes, depending on the machine.

      1. Lumen*

        Well, if they had moved it somewhere secure because they saw it out and thought it was a risk, that would make a little more sense. But this was going from 1 corner of the cube, where it was covered, to another corner of the cube 2 feet away, uncovered. And you’re right: if someone had done this for this reason, I would have had an email or note about it. This is why I’m fairly certain someone got a bee in their bonnet and wanted to ‘make a point’.

        I think the issue this coworker takes is that it is not locked in a drawer. And if I just put it to sleep and lock it up every night, then it will be sitting there losing battery power every night.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Yeah, moving it without securing it is definitely weird. And not letting you know afterwards is extra weird.

          I know this doesn’t really help your situation, but your laptops need updating. Modern laptops boot up quickly (within seconds) and also do not lose their charge when put to sleep overnight.

          Can you ask IT about possibly creating ways for you to keep your laptop charged while laso being in a secure space?

          1. Lumen*

            If it turns out that I need to lock up every night, I will definitely grab someone from IT and ask if there’s a way to do this during the week that doesn’t involve a complete shut-down every day, because I hate losing that time every single morning. Thank you for noting that!

    8. LKW*

      I haven’t been in any office where people are allowed to leave their laptops out overnight unless locked in the docking station. That yours was de-docked and left means you’re not locking it up. I know it’s not your office’s policy, and it’s totally not cool to mess with your stuff, but I am curious what penalty would be handed out if someone came through the office and took your laptop?

      1. Lumen*

        I may be missing something about the ‘lock’. There is a lock on the side of the dock, but it’s just a slide-bar. It’s not keyed or protected in any way.

        For further context: we have the whole floor. To get into the office you need a magnetic security badge. The laptops also all have security tracking devices installed. But if there is a penalty for leaving it out and it being stolen, I don’t know what it is.

        Honestly, I’m open to learning that there is a different policy than what I was initially told and changing my habits accordingly. I am not okay with my coworkers messing with my stuff to passive-aggressively teach me a lesson.

        1. It's Business Time*

          Just go on amazon and go docking station locks – it is a cable lock that loops around and secures your laptop. I worked at a place that had the IT group supply these, as everyone knew it was too big a pain to lock away the laptops, and this way, no one had to think about it, it was always locked, unless you needed to go somewhere with the laptop

      2. CD Rep by Day, Writer by Night*

        It’s not a problem where I work. We have a department of 40 and is say 90% of us leave our laptops docked overnight. We don’t have any kind of locking mechanism, and we’re encouraged not to take our laptops home because we’re not supposed to work from home without prior approval.

    9. Lucy*

      Not cool! I used to confiscate unlocked laptops as I was generally one of the last people to leave in the evening, but that’s because we had a clear policy that everyone had to acknowledge and sign when they were onboarded. We were working on a US gov’t contract and all of the equipment was technically US gov’t property and we had to provide an annual inventory report to the gov’t. We provided laptop locks and desks with properly drilled holes. But people were always moving around the office space in order to collaborate (which I fully supported) and found it inconvenient. So I said lock them in your desk drawer at night. But that was still too much for them to handle. So I would take them in the evening and lock them in my desk drawer!

    10. Saviour Self*

      I know this isn’t what you asked, but you should be getting paid for the time it takes your computer to boot up. It is considered a “compensable pre-shift activity” so your employer would need to allow for you to adjust your time clock to account for that time.

    11. KellyK*

      I like the idea of asking your supervisor about it. It’s a huge overstep to mess with someone else’s work computer, especially when that messing around affects their ability to clock in and start work.

    12. periwinkle*

      Cable lock. It is, as the name implies, a steel cable designed specifically to secure laptops. On one end is a lock (key or combination), and the other end is a loop. Loop the cable around something secure, pop the lock bit into the slot on your laptop, lock it, and you’re good. At my org we’ll use laptops during meetings without bringing the lock but otherwise it’s standard practice to always have our laptops secured. It doesn’t matter that our building is secure and the laptops are heavily secured – we use our locks even when the laptop is docked at our desk.

      I use the company’s keyed cable lock at my docking station but bought a Kensington combination lock version ($20 at Amazon) to use when I’m elsewhere. Definitely recommend the combination version, that’s one less key to be paranoid about losing…

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This is what we had at work. We were actually required to have our laptops locked with the cable lock while docked during work hours, and then locked in a drawer or taken home every night. Security would confiscate any laptops left unsecured, regardless of time of day (signs were posted to this effect).

        A cable lock should prevent any PA “point-makers” from removing your laptop as well as satisfy potential security requirements.

        And I’d be extremely put out by someone undocking my laptop from its power source to “make a point.”

    13. Lumen*

      Final and Happy Update!

      My boss spoke to the senior director of information security (we have one of those) and, without naming any names, explained the situation and expressed to him as well that she didn’t love that someone else was messing with my computer.

      His response was: there is no set policy on where to store a computer when it is in the office. He suggested (as many readers did!) a laptop cradle lock, and I’ve reached out to IT to request that one be installed.

      The best part? This senior director also said that he does not like that someone was tampering with another person’s computer, either.

      So I’m going to get a laptop cradle lock and continue to work as befits my convenience and on-the-clock time. And if someone brings this up to me directly, I now have the knowledge to explain the real policy to them. And if someone tries to tamper with my equipment again, they won’t be able to without risking damaging company property.

      High fives all around! Thank you all for being so supportive and making so many helpful comments.

  29. stanleycupcakes*

    I have a second interview in about an hour and a half, any tips/words of advice/encouragement?
    First phone interview went really well, I worked with this nonprofit before on a huge, huge event at my last job, and I know a handful of people there as a result. So I’m pretty confident, but still… a little pre-interview jitters.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Breath. In through the nose, out through the mouth.

      Keep doing that, and remember that you’re awesome, and you’ll be just fine. :)

    3. Lumen*

      Try the Wonder Woman pose for a few minutes right before you head into the interview. There’s science behind it, but apparently standing with your feet shoulder-width apart, fists on hips, back straight/shoulders back, looking valiantly into the distance… it helps. I’ve done it before asking for a raise. Google it!

      And best of luck!!

      1. NotThatGardner*

        I used to think that this was total bull until my mom pushed me to try before an interview and it weirdly works! I find it helps to do in front of a mirror and look at myself doing it too!

        good luck! let us know :)

  30. Casper Lives*

    Thoughts on leaving soon after starting a job when you’re underpaid? I love my job, but I’m underpaid. I’m a lower-paid public defender without benefits (firm contract with the county; county too poor to hire enough public defenders). There’s been a ton of turnover at my job, where people get experience & leave for a better job in less than a year.

    My issue is that I want to be a public defender proper for the pay, benefits, and more complicated cases. I’m trying to decide whether to start applying despite only being here 2 months. I do have significantly more experience than when I started (trials & all), it usually takes a long time to get a PD job in the locations I want, and lots of people have left. I told them my goal is to be a PD in the interview. Still I feel a little guilty…

    1. Here we go again*

      You have to do what is right for you. Don’t feel guilty.

      BTW, I just found out how little public defenders make a few days ago and it made me so sad. It’s such a needed position and it’s horrible that the salary is so low.

    2. neverjaunty*

      Why feel guilty? Full-time ‘proper’ PD jobs have enormous turnover because of the low pay and burnout.

  31. the.kat*

    Just a small vent:

    We are nine days away from our 500-person, ticketed 35th-anniversary event at work. The local newspaper came out to do a feature on us, talked to the founder and then advertised the event starting a half-hour earlier than its supposed to start and open to the public. I’ve done some damage control but this is not what I had on my plate for today!

    1. Simone R*

      Oh no! When I used to sell tickets it was so common that organizers would tell us one thing and advertise the event differently so we would get people showing up thinking they could have things they couldn’t. I know your pain!

    3. DC*

      As an events person, I totally understand your frustrations today! I’m sorry this happened, and hope everything works out. Fingers crossed they’ll print a retraction for you!

    4. This Daydreamer*

      Wow, that sounds like a *great* way to start the weekend! I’ve got my fingers crossed that things go well for you.

  32. Librarian of the North*

    A few weeks ago I asked if people would leave a permanent position that had cut your pay by 30% and demoted your title (but not your job duties) after using you for your contacts, for a position that was a 6 month contract possibly leading permanent. The new company liked my Husband so much they offered him a different position than he had originally applied for with a one year contract possibly (everyone has said probably) leading permanent. Same pay as his original position, benefits that are much much better. It got stressful when the new company wanted a reference from a current manager :/ but he was able to navigate through that and starts in a few weeks!

  33. ThatGirl*

    I start a new job on Monday! I’m excited. I actually ended up with two offers within two business days, which was sort of astonishing but really just a quirk of timing. Job A I was actually a near-perfect fit for in terms of my experience and the company was a customer of my old company – but it was a big company still being run like a small one (the CEO interviewed me both on the phone and in person and gave me the offer), the pay was good but not great, and when I asked for specifics on benefits I got a one-paragraph letter that basically said “we have health insurance”.

    Job B was for a bigger, well-run nationally known company that I was really interested in working for; the job itself wasn’t a perfect fit but sounds really interesting. The offer was strong and included a sign-on bonus, extra vacation, summer hours and full info about the benefits. Plus the office itself is closer to home. So I took that one. :)

    (If I’m repeating myself from previous weeks forgive me; I wanted to flesh it out a little and I’m just so excited!)

    3. Snark*

      I feel like there’s a lot of employers who, like, haven’t gotten the memo that “good but not great” pay and “we have health insurance” isn’t how you act in an employment market with generally very low unemployment rates. This is not 2009! When unemployment is around 4.4% nationally – and between 2 and 3.5% in most hot employment markets – you actually have to make a competitive offer and get generous with the benefits and salary, not wait for the desperate to take whatever cheapjack offer you toss at them.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I mean, I would have pressed more and potentially negotiated if I didn’t have the other offer, but as it was it was just not impressive and like I said, it seemed like a big company that was still being run like a small, very informal one.

  34. Allison*

    My manager resigned earlier this week, gave his two-week notice but may not be around for all of next week. I’m really bummed, he was the one who hired me, he was a big part of why I liked this job, and while they’re keeping me around, I have no idea what’s ahead. I don’t know who I’m reporting to next, but if if their management style isn’t a fit for my work style, I could be in for a rough few months. The first time I was assigned to a new manager was in my first job, and I was so miserable I ended up getting fired for an attitude problem. Second time was in my third job, but it all worked out and I stayed for a while after.

    I’ve only been here since February and it seems like it would be bad form to leave now, and I was really hoping I’d be here long-term, get that raise next year, that vested 401k match and vacation bump and whatnot, but at this point if someone contacts me about a decent-sounding opportunity, I may chat with them and see what they have to offer.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      But if you’re leaving because you’re going to have a new manager… aren’t you going to end up with a new manager either way?

    2. ThatGirl*

      I feel like you should give the new person a chance. Is there truly nothing else you like about the job? You’re bound to have managers you don’t 100% click with down the road; learning to work with them is really valuable.

      1. Allison*

        All I said was that I’m open to talking to recruiters, not that I’m planning to pack up and leave tomorrow. The pay and location here are great, but I also know the benefits aren’t awesome and the team has had a lot of turnover recently. In the past 6 months I’ve seen quite a few people leave, the would-be coworker who interviewed me before the hiring manager did left before I even started. I’ll give the new manager a chance, I’m sorry if it sounded like I already hated them or something, but if a really great opportunity comes along that really interests me, I might take it. Might. Not definitely. Might.

        1. ThatGirl*

          It’s always fair to take a new great opportunity if one presents itself, of course. And I understand being bummed about losing a great manager. But I do feel like, all else aside, it’s worth sticking with this job for awhile and being patient.

    3. Tuckerman*

      Something I’ve learned: Managers can be equally awesome and totally different. I was really bummed out that my old manager (of 6 years) was leaving, but I’m actually quite happy with my new one. It’s a slightly different dynamic, but the change allowed me to recognize certain strengths I have that I didn’t use before.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Have you talked to your exiting boss? You can wish him the best in his new activities and work into asking his opinion on where he thinks you end up. He might have some clues. If you want you could ask him if he has any advice that he feels free to share.

  35. Emi.*

    New-to-me business lingo: “inreach” (um, okay) and “fractionated” (this seems unnecessary). Anyone else?

    1. Sled Dog Mama*

      never heard inreach but I use fractionated nearly everyday in my world it refers to the combination of how often a patient is scheduled for a treatment and the dose they receive per treatment (fraction) (As in “Dr what fractionation scheme do you what for patient X”)

      What does it mean in your industry?

      1. Emi.*

        Oh, interesting! I heard it as “fractionated support,” where one person is supporting multiple projects so each project only gets a fraction of their time.

        2. Natalie*

          I feel like “fractional support” would cover that just fine, while also being already a phrase and 1 whole syllable shorter.

    2. Snark*

      Inreach is not a word. Fractionated is a scientific term that would be appropriate in some technical fields, but I suspect it’s being tortured in this case.

    3. Teapot Librarian*

      Line of sight. As in, “I want to give you line of sight to the process for X.” (Was in the text of an email written by someone else to be sent over my name. I edited it out.)

      2. Sled Dog Mama*

        Is English the first language for that person? That sounds almost like one of those odd phrases that some ESL speakers (even those who are otherwise very fluent) use. It makes sense in their native tongue but looses something in translation.
        And I had that reaction too

  36. DeutschAnon*

    So, I got a great-paying job using my German skills for work. Problem? The open office uses long tables for desks…and I am SO cramped because I have to share with a certain lady who could easily be on “My 600 pound life.” She is so heavy she literally can’t walk, and pushes her wheeled desk chair the few feet to her powered wheelchair when she needs to get up. Being short, she’s roughly a sphere, and takes up about 3/4 of the workspace with her body and stuff…I barely have room for my coffee and two pieces of paper side by side! She can’t bend down, so all snacks/lotion/tissues etc must be crammed onto the shared space. This morning she came in after me; I had coffee, a notebook open, and one piece of paperwork next to it. She made me move stuff to make room, leaving me only about two feet or less of workspace.

    She also needs to use a lot of fans because her weight makes her hot; but I’m next to her and freezing, plus the fans take up precious desk space! And after lunch or errands, she’s sweaty; I don’t know how well she can physically clean, but either way, come afternoon, it smells like something died next to me.

    It’s a full workspace and management wants to keep me next to the rest of the foreign language team- but I can’t stand the smell or working with my shoulders almost on my ears! It’s only my second day and so I don’t know what to do. It’s so uncomfortable, but for $50+ an hour, I can put up with a lot.

    Sorry for the rant. I’m no little fairy myself, so I don’t hate large people, but this is untenable.

    2. Emi.*

      That sounds pretty untenable. How did she “make” you move your things? Did you try saying “Actually, I need this space to work; can you put your things somewhere else?”
      This is definitely something you can go to your manager about—ideally, maybe the two of you could go to the them together and say “This table just ain’t big enough for the both of us” so it doesn’t just sound like you complaining about her. I also recommend phrasing it as “This table situation is untenable,” not “This tablemate is untenable.”

        1. Emi.*

          Right! I just meant you should be extra careful that that’s clear to her and your manager. It would probably help if you start by claiming/keeping space more assertively. You do need the space too, and it’s more obvious that it’s a “the table is too small for us” problem if you’re *both* crowded.

          2. blackcat*

            Yes! I am sure coworker would rather have an appropriate amount of space to herself, too!

      2. Drew*

        I would also suggest talking to coworker first, if only so you can then say you tried to resolve the situation directly. “I don’t know if you realize this, but your things have been encroaching into my work space. Since I obviously need that space to be able to do my job, how would you like me to address this if it happens again?” Assume friendly cooperation until proven otherwise.

        I’m wondering how new this work arrangement is. If they just recently moved everyone to the long tables, she may be resenting losing a larger space and it doesn’t have anything specifically to do with you.

        1. Snark*

          Hm. I disagree somewhat – I think this should be handled when the ask to move comes. “Sorry, no, I really need at least this much space to work, and I’ve been feeling really crowded lately, so I’ll be leaving my things where they are.” And I don’t think DeutchAnon necessarily needs to be the one coming up with a solution, either – this is the coworker’s need and the coworker’s issue to resolve without unreasonably encroaching.

          1. Emi.*

            I agree, except that the need for “enough space” is both of theirs (and really, the manager’s issue to resolve).

            1. Snark*

              Yes, but the need for *extra* space is the coworker’s issue, and so she should – ideally – be the one going to the manager for assistance resolving it in a way that doesn’t impose.

              1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

                I really disagree. This isn’t a coworker problem; it’s a space problem.

                Two coworkers do not need *equal* space (and so the idea of “extra” space isn’t relevant); they each need *enough* space. That’s the problem. The coworker’s size is irrelevant. What they both need to work effectively is what matters.

                1. Snark*

                  And DeutschAnon *has* enough space until the coworker imposes on her to take some, so I maintain my point. And I think equal space is a reasonable expectation.

                  The coworker’s size is relevant in that it is the reason she can’t store some things elsewhere or on the floor.

                2. Emi.*

                  Well, I think the default assumption with a shared table is that each person gets half of it, so the person who needs more that half of it should ideally kick off the process of getting a different setup, instead of just trying to take someone else’s space (!!). But I think they should approach their manager together.

          2. Drew*

            I completely agree that handling it in the moment would be better. And it sounds like there won’t be a long wait for another moment to handle it in.

    3. CityMouse*

      I feel you, it sounds like they really aren’t providing an adequate workspace for either of you. I would focus solely on the amount of workspace issue when raising it with your boss just because, though I believe your complaints on body odor and temperature are legitimate, someone might view it as.you just hating coworker.

    4. Snark*

      I think it’s pretty ludicrous that you’re expected to move your work into a space the size of an airplane snack tray to accomodate her. If she needs additional storage space, I think she needs to make arrangements for some shelves or an additional table, not chivvy your items to the side.

    5. LisaLee*

      This sounds like a really difficult situation for both of you. I’m sure you’re coworker is really self-conscious about these issues too.

      Can you go to your manager and present it as just an issue of work habits? Something like “Both Patricia and I need a number of things on the desktop to do our work, and there’s not enough space for us to both do our jobs comfortably. Is there another workspace I could move to?” It also sounds like you do some kind of language or translation work, so you could point out you need a quiet space to concentrate on that, and it’s difficult to do so at a table with others.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      You need to make this about the space, not the person. As soon as you mention her weight, or anything you’re blaming on it, you sound like “I don’t want to work next to the fat lady” instead of “I have legitimate issues regarding workspace.”

      What I would do is, try to get there before her tomorrow, and take up exactly half the table. When she comes in and tells you to move, politely say “I’m sorry, that didn’t work for me yesterday. I really need half of our shared workspace.” Either she accepts that, she moves your stuff herself, or she goes to management. If #2 or #3 happen, then it’s time to have a calm, rational discussion that DOES NOT INVOKE THE WORDS ‘FAT’ OR ‘SMELLY’ and explain that you need half the space, so how can we work this out?

      2. DeutschAnon*

        Thanks! It’s just frustrating. Plus, the other foreign teapot workers are making fun of her- in German. They’re four thin Europeans and/or dual citizens. Being as I have to be next to her, I find my jerkbrain wanting to join in, especially as the only management who can understand us is in…Düsseldorf.

        I know Alison advises against using foreign language to gossip, though, so I keep reminding myself. It’s a really bad habit my family has always had and I’m trying to break.

        1. Emi.*

          Oh gosh, that’s awful. Good for you for resisting the temptation!

          I also think someone in management ought to be clued into their gross behavior, but I don’t know if you can bring it up without it sounding like concern-trolling. “Jane and I need more desk space because neither of us has enough room to work … also, other people think she’s fat and smelly.” That’s just not going to go well, which I think is an argument in favor of you calling them out, although I realize that’s tough when you’re new.

        2. Observer*

          I do sympathize with you. But DO DO DO resist the temptation to join the mockery. There are SO many ways it can come back to bite you.

    8. Emmie*

      I think it’s okay to have a frank and confidential conversation with your boss. It’s okay to say that she physically takes up a lot of space, the fans have you freezing, and the smell from sweating. I would ask if I could move. That’s really tough.

    9. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      How do you know she can’t walk or bend down because she’s fat? How do you know she’s hot because of her weight? You’re making an awful lot of assumptions here. She could be disabled in addition to being fat. As to your problem with space – I would talk to a supervisor, without making judgmental statements about your desk mate. Thin people can spread out their stuff, too.

      1. Snark*

        Alison has really started requesting that we not aggressively call each other out on inoccuous and justifiable assumptions and minor turns of word choice. Can we not?

        2. Hrovitnir*

          I do think it is important to note things like “just because a wheelchair user is fat doesn’t mean they’re a wheelchair user because they’re fat”, however.

          Not to attack DeutschAnon, but to bear in mind how easy it is to make harmful assumptions.

          My sympathies, DeutschAnon! I hope something better can be worked out for both of you. :/

          1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

            Yes.

            I’m overweight; I also spent 3 years needing assistive devices. While the weight probably played a factor in my recovery (you need to exercise! Oh, but not in weight bearing ways. But exercise more. On zero budget. Without putting weight on your feet. AUGH!) it was demonstrably not a factor in the reason I needed the devices in the first place. But HOO BOY did I hear it from everyone and their dog that “oh if you lose weight, you won’t need the cane/wheelchair/scooter anymore!”

    10. gladfe*

      Do you know whether she had the table to herself before you started? I ask because her asking you to move makes me wonder if she’s simultaneously thinking, “This new guy is encroaching on my work space. I don’t hate the new guy, but this is untenable.” If that’s the case, it might make it easier to ask her about approaching management together.

      1. hermit crab*

        Oh, that’s a good point. I am a small person but I have a lot of paperwork, and I used to take up more than half of the counterspace when I shared a cube with my work-BFF (she had less paperwork to deal with and I knew she didn’t care, since it was easy for us to talk about everything). Then she transferred to a different office, and it was a bit of a transition to go back to using ≤50% of the space when a new hire was assigned to her desk.

        I agree that approaching management together with a “this space isn’t sufficient for our mutual work needs” argument is the way to go. In my experience, bosses (at least, reasonable and/or conflict averse ones) take this sort of thing very well.

        Also, I’ve found that being friends/friendly with someone who has habits that get your goat can help a LOT. Especially if you can’t move right away, I recommend trying to find some common ground with your table-mate, like maybe you have some shared hobbies, or you both hate a popular TV show or something (never ever underestimate the bonding potential of shared hatred of a popular TV show). I have my own shared-space issues (cf: misphonia post above) and I’ve found that it’s way easier to reach BEC stage with someone when you don’t have any relationship outside of “they do something that annoys me.” In any case, I think the key here is to be on the same side as your coworker so you can get to a mutually acceptable solution.

  37. T3k*

    So I have another phone interview next week. After reading the glassdoor review though, I’m a little iffy if I could make this place work long term, and I really need my next job to be so as my first two jobs were a year or less (first one not my fault as I was laid off). I’m also concerned that a few reviews mentioned sexual harassment and nothing was done for them and not sure if/how any concerns could be addressed about that during the interview.

    On the upside, I’ve gotten more interviews this past month alone than the past year, so either my cover letter writing has gotten better or they’re just desperate <.<

    1. Natasha*

      It seems like sexual harassment and lack of oversight into it are symptoms of greater company dysfunction. One famous recent case is Uber, who also had an unhealthy party culture, lawsuit with Google, and competitive environment to boot. In my personal experience, a place I worked at closed down after I left because certain leaders were sexually harassing their reports, embezzling merchandise, and lying about performance to the greater corporation. I didn’t know about any of these issues while I was there, but I knew that I had been asked to work 7am – 6pm M-F and 7-12 S for months with no end in sight because these same leaders were unwilling to hire additional people. Also, the pay was low and the work stressful. For anyone, even people who don’t have the workplace disadvantage of being female, I advise treating sexual harassment rumours as a red flag.

  38. Spidersinmyattic*

    I left my last job about nine months ago – it was the most insane, unprofessional work environment I’ve ever encountered (the kind of stuff you might read on here and think…surely that can’t be real?!) and I am SO glad to be out of it. It felt like a mom and pop company but it wasn’t – it was just small and very dysfunctional. I haven’t worked since for other reasons and every job I apply to *insists* that one of your references *must* be your current or most recent employer. I wouldn’t ask these people the time let alone for a reference – I don’t trust them to be truthful and I am near sure they would either decline to give one if contacted or give a purposefully evasive and vague one to make it look, indirectly, like I’m the kinda person you don’t want to hire.

    Naturally I’m awesome and left this job because it was crazy – I wasn’t fired, didn’t steal anything or assault anyone and during my time there had no marks against me. But I know these people and what they’re capable of. So what can I do? If job applications insist on using my most recent employer and I tell them not to it looks sketchy and like I have something to hide – but I know if I use them it would be a mistake. There are no ex-colleagues there I could use either. Help!

    1. Lumen*

      I would give them your most recent appropriate reference. They probably won’t ask why, and if they do, you can explain. I’m sorry I don’t have a script to suggest for that.

      I think that some of their ‘insistence’ might be the ‘wish list’ variety. But if they really aren’t going to hire you because your last workplace was toxic, then maybe THEY are a toxic employer.

  39. Evil Balloons*

    GAH. Who is advising job applicants to arrive 20+ minutes early? WHO?

    (I’m interviewing for entry-level positions all week and this has been making me NUTS.)

    1. Snark*

      This happened to me just last week – not a new hire for my team, but I’m on the search committee. Guy arrived 30 minutes early and just sat there awkwardly.

    2. Drew*

      In my case, it was my mother. “You can never be too early!” For airports, this may be true. For job interviews and parties, not so much.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Well, I would still recommend getting the to the general area early but just not actually walking in the door that early. Usually what I’ll do is take the bus or drive to the general area and try to arrive 3o to 45 minutes earlier. But then I’ll just hang out under a tree or at a coffee shop or some other place until about 5-10 minutes before I’m supposed to arrive—then I’ll show up.

      2. katamia*

        Ugh, my dad is like that, too. Yes, dad, you can be too early for most things. You definitely can. I’m usually no more than 5-10 minutes early, though, which is about all the earliness I can tolerate after growing up with my early bird dad. His standards of time did NOT rub off on me.

    3. k.k*

      It’s the college job centers, often the parents, and lots of terrible articles. I remember hearing a lot of “If you’re on time you’re late!”, and heard to arrive no less than 15 minutes early.

      Not that you’re obligated to, but it would be a great kindness if you could gently let them know this is not normal or expected, especially for entry level positions where they are likely new to the workforce. Like if they’re invited in for a second interview, a quick “Oh and no need to arrive so early next time”.

      1. Evil Balloons*

        I did think about that in the moment, but couldn’t come up with the right way to say it that didn’t sound like “you’re in trouble!” That’s a good point, re: the 2nd interview.

        1. Paige Turner*

          Since you’re interviewing entry-level candidates who may not have a lot of experience and have possibly been getting bad advice, it might be worthwhile to give them this info when you schedule the interview. Something like, “We have limited space in our reception area, so if you arrive more than 15 minutes early, we suggest waiting in the main lobby/the Starbucks next door/etc.” That said, if it’s not really a problem, just weird, and there isn’t a good place for people to wait if they take public transportation, then it might be easier to do nothing. I meet people in my office a lot for appointments, and whenever someone messages me really early to say that they’ve arrived, I just say, “Thanks- I’m wrapping something up right now but I’ll meet you there soon.”

    4. JLK in the ATX*

      Interstingly this could backfire on the candidate. While we applaud them showing up early, too early
      1) makes everyone feel uncomfortable
      2) wonders about overall time management (do they block/tackle everything with a 20-min buffer?)
      3) does their worry about being late indicate overcompensation in other areas, too?

      Or they just could be very anxious :)

      If I arrive early, I sit in my car until 10-min. Then I get out nice and easy, put on my jack, look at myself in the car window and stroll in at 5-before. I caveat – in the military we’re taught, “5-minutes early is 10-minutes too late”

    5. HisGirlFriday*

      The same people who are advising job applicants to:

      * Call for more information
      * Call to follow-up
      * Call to express interest
      * Send LinkedIn and Facebook friend requests to other people at the company
      * Start leaving comments on the company’s FB page about how ‘I would love to work there!’

      (All things that have happened this week. All things for a part-time, 22 hr/week, entry-level job.)

      1. Evil Balloons*

        Oh my gosh, does that Linkedin and Facebook thing happen?! (I’ve had everything else on the list though …)

        The thing is, there’s nothing wrong with being super-early. But walk around the block. Chill out in Starbucks. Anything!

        1. HisGirlFriday*

          It’s happened to me twice this week. I have a work-only FB page, where I post pictures of Teapot Events and remind people of upcoming Teapot Activities and share interesting news articles about Teapot News and…y’all, if you don’t gild chocolate teapots, it’s as boring as beige paint drying.

    6. Anonymous Educator*

      Side note: this isn’t annoying only for job interviews. I’ve held various events and had people show up an hour early, and I have to tell them we’re still finishing setup, and they should come back at the actual start time.

    7. Objects don't argue back*

      OH MY GOD YES. The place I’m temping held interviews last week for the position I’m doing in the interim (very very entry-level), and the first interviewee almost beat the interviewer in!

      Not helped by the fact that we don’t really have a waiting area, so they’re kind of crammed into a corner until they can get into the conference room. I just…why???

    8. Girasol*

      I’ll cop to that. I’ve been delayed by bad weather, accidents, car problems, and poor directions, so I start for the appointment early. If everything goes well, I just ask front desk to allow me to wait in the lobby until the correct time and not alert the person I’m meeting with until then.

  40. JLK in the ATX*

    How much, if any, do employee and candidate reviews of a company influence your decision to apply?

    A recruiter notified me of a job (and there are very few recruiters for mid-level position in my industry) so I researched further. The Glassdoor reviews are 29% positive while Indeed reviews report a 4.1/5-stars. I found the person to whom the position would work for and she posted about the job, on LinkedIn, adding some personal perspective to it (helpful).

    I don’t know anyone in the organization (not that that has sseemed to matter as of late, recently being turned down for a position despite having 2 advocates in the organization – they opted to hire a volunteer instead) to reference directly and I don’t have solid 2nd LinkedIn connections.

    Thanks

    1. Spidersinmyattic*

      Not a whole lot unless there’s a common theme running through them. I would usually disregard the ones claiming it’s heaven/hell on wheels to work at and read through the middle of the road ones. If I really liked the position I’d apply irrespective of any reviews and then worry about it once I’d met the interview panel and had a look around.

    2. T3k*

      I’d say it depends on how many on glassdoor (having a handful of reviews vs. having 20+ means the latter has more weight, likely to be unbiased). I also read through the reviews to find if there’s any common problems. For instance, I’m lined up for an interview with one company and its reviews are making me second guess it because many for the local branch are complaining about the sub-par pay and benefits and unrealistic expectations in the sales dept. But since the job I’m applying for isn’t in sales, it might not be as bad, but it’s definitely given me some questions to ask during the interview.

      1. JLK in the ATX*

        @T3K good point on generating interview questions from the comments. Thank you.
        @Spidersinmyattic – good angle – go for the median and look for trends. Thanks

    3. Librarian of the North*

      My Husband’s old company has absolutely horrendous glassdoor reviews and we really wish he had read them. I think it depends on what the reviews say specifically. Usually with online reviews you assume that many people only write reviews when angry so I take them with a grain of salt. If the reviews all point to similar problems I would really think hard about the move.

      1. Bostonian*

        I agree about looking for patterns.

        Also make note of the date of the reviews: There may be 30 reviews, but if they’re all from 2015 or earlier, they’re probably not relevant.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Adding: Read the review, does it make sense, could things be happening the way it’s explained there given what you know about the company. One thing I consider a big tip off is the uniqueness or specificity of what the review thinks of to say. “Don’t work at the East Port Office, just focus on working at the West Port Office. East Port is going through some change overs due to mismanagement.” Or “TPTB are totally disconnected from the needs of middle management.”
          I tend to favor overviews like these rather than, “Bob at the East Port Office is a jerk.” Maybe other people are fine with Bob. Maybe the writer is a jerk. Maybe the writer did not understand the context for what Bob was doing and saying. Who knows.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      I give weight to reviews that give specific information. “The boss is a jerk” isn’t helpful, but it is helpful to read, “They have been docking our timecards since July and I get paid late once a month.”

    5. JulieBulie*

      It’s helpful to consider the size of the company. If it’s small and there’s a common thread through most of the reviews, that tells you something. But if it’s a huge company, you will need to read between the lines and take into account that different locations will probably have different issues.

  41. Anonfornow*

    I have been searching for a new position and while my numbers are pretty good (about 20 apps, 8 people contacted me, six phone interviews, and four in-person interviews) I am getting incredibly discouraged by the process. The main issue is that I am a manager, and I hate being a manager, and I’m looking to switch industries (although, the current industry I’m in is very niche, so I haven’t even really SEEN other jobs in my current industry). I have almost a decade of experience, and for example, I just lost out on a position that to someone who only has four months of full-time work experience and an internship. The position only required a year of experience, so it’s not like it’s crazy to go with someone else, but this is the first job I lost to someone who didn’t have much more specific related experience than I did.. so it still feels bummer-y! Then there is the issue that they all want to know how much I am paid.. I am willing to take at least a (10%) and my benefits aren’t that great, so the paycut could easily be made up for with different benefits. I feel like even though I have followed the advice for going to an individual contributor position after a manager position (explaining I am happier doing the nuts-and-bolts of the work without managing), that interviewers still seek skeptical. When I was forced to take a manager position (not asked, told) I never realized that it would be detrimental to my job search!

    1. JLK in the ATX*

      I’m feeling your pain. I’ve done the management thing and I rather be the nuts/bolts person, too. They are somewhat skeptical that I want to decrease my progress but I’ve done everything in my industry (to include the Ex Director role) and I feel free to do what I want now (boxes checked)

      I’ve moved to this phrasing and supporting statements: “After a fast paced and progressive career, I’m seeking opportunities where I can build team, service and organizational capacity.” Which seems to soften the ‘I don’t want all that responsibility and pain anymore” :)

      I lose my opportunities to volunteers as internal hires. I’ve been able to progress through my career (despite living a military life) in this way, so I’m not too hard on that practice.

      Good luck

      1. Anonfornow*

        Hmm, this is interesting — even though I’m in management, my position is actually kind of painfully slow paced. After interview #1, I learned to leave that out — don’t want anyone to think I can’t cut it — but now that you say that, I can see how it might look contradictory that I’m saying I want to move to a fast-paced position, but don’t want to be a manager. My framing has been that I’m looking to focus on Teapots Research, rather than my current all-things-Teapots role, as an individual contributor. When I’ve seen jobs noted as “fast-paced,” I usually say that I thrive in a fast-paced environment, which is true. I feel absolutely stagnant where I’m at! (Note, I don’t say THAT in interviews, either!) It’s just tough. Thank you for commiserating!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Stealing your own words:
          “I have done the management thing and found I am a nuts and bolts person. In terms of pacing, I do however enjoy a fast-paced environment.”

          Here you just break the two apart, you do not have to be a manager to work at a fast pace. You might run into question about, “Well how do you separate nuts from bolts at a fast pace and still remain accurate?” Or you could be asked how you will handle the fact that you can no longer order the nuts and bolts and you must stand aside while someone else does?

  42. paul*

    Does anyone have any experience with temp agencies? How to tell good ones from bad ones?

    We’ll be moving probably next year for my wife’s work (this is terrifying, and it’s to a city I wouldn’t choose–I hate big cities, they scare the hell out of me). I was debating just going for a temp to hire position or tempign for a bit since I haven’t job hunted in so long and I frankly want out of social services–I’m hitting empathy burnout and have been for a year or so. So it’ll be an industry switch regardless.

    1. Beth*

      If there are really large companies you are interested in, do some research to see what temp agencies they work with — many of them have exclusive contracts. It can be hard to tell the “good” ones from the “bad” ones. I had a temp assignment a decade or so ago with Manpower.. they weren’t great, but they got me a job when I couldn’t find one otherwise, and in the end.. that’s what mattered the most. I think if you go with a larger agency with more resources, that is likely to be your best bet.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I temped when I first moved to NYC and I only looked into agencies that came recommended to me by friends or other trusted individuals. The one I wound up using had a full-on interview with me to learn about my skills/experiences, as well as what kinds of jobs I wanted to be considered for. They never contacted me with anything outside of what we discussed. (So, nothing part-time when I wanted full-time, nothing that was just receptionist-type work when I wanted comprehensive administrative roles, etc.).

      1. Lore*

        If that was within the past few years, would you mind sharing what agency it is? I’ve got a friend looking for temp work who’s having a terrible time even making it onto the rosters of agencies–he’s getting the same “send resume into black hole” kinds of responses as when applying to full-time jobs.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Sure! It was back in 2011, but the name of the agency is Clarity (claritystaffing[dot]com).

    3. Malibu Stacey*

      I had a good experience with Adecco in that they found a decently-paid assignment within a couple of months for me and were responsive.

      The downside was no benefits or holiday pay which I was used to with my previous full-time job.

    4. NotThatGardner*

      Depends on the city (happy to share experiences on Boston-based ones if that’s where you’re headed!) but I have actually found Yelp to have good indicators on temp agencies in my experience.

      1. paul*

        Nope, thank goodness! I’m sure it’s a lovely city but it’s even bigger.

        DFW metroplex.

    5. Aphrodite*

      I am not sure but I think Kelly might be a franchise. If so, then my (long ago) experience wouldn’t help but I’ll add it anyway. I was sent out to a one-week job where it was puzzling. I didn’t get much assistance from others nor was it a friendly office. I didn’t expect to be included in lunch groups or such but really the atmosphere was rather icy. The second-to-last day they sent me home early and the agency called me and said that I had refused to do something. I most definitely had not; it was a flat-out lie though why I still have no idea. The agency then said “they fired us so don’t bother to call us ever again.” They refused to believe me so I moved on–but not without telling a lot of others over the years.

      1. Aphrodite*

        To add, before I got my current job I went into an Apple One office and applied. I like the fact that you could now take their skills testing (MS Office) at home using your own computer so the results were more accurate. They also had contracts with the city and the large University of California campus in my city so if you wanted to get in there you could and that’s what I originally asked for. (Fortunately, I never used them as I was hired shortly thereafter. But it might be worth finding out which agency has government or education contracts in your city if you are interested in that.)

    6. Iris Eyes*

      I’d look for somewhere that does skill tests/inventories and a full in person interview. If you get weird vibes or if they try to make you sign something that makes you essentially their property in the employment market drop them. DFW and surrounding areas have plenty of options (also there are a lot of people who live in the outer suburbs that you might find a lot less frightening) a one+ hour commute isn’t uncommon but you are probably traveling 30+ miles. So you may be able to work not in the actual big cities but around them.

      1. paul*

        We’re not sure what her exact location will be, and it seems like that matters a lot in Dallas with the traffic being as bad as it is. I’m hoping we can manage something on the western edge or the northern edge of the metroplex.

        We were *really* hoping for NM but c’est la vie :(

    7. AnonAndOn*

      Temp agencies have been hit or miss for me. I felt that I had success with the ones I used in my hometown than I do where I live now. I also have to factor in that my better luck with them was over a decade ago. Times have surely changed.

      In my hometown, AppleOne was a great one. The agent gave me lots of choices for assignments and if I felt one wasn’t a good fit she’d immediately give me another option. I tried AppleOne where I am now a few years ago and it was a different experience. One sent me on an assignment that was canceled before I set foot in the assignment’s door, and another agent was nasty and never gave me any assignments. I’ve been using Robert Half’s OfficeTeam recently and was sent on an assignment at the most unprofessional organization. I won’t get into specifics about that place since I reviewed that place on Glassdoor.

      The OfficeTeam agent assigned to me was condescending and there are so many things I can complain about here but it’d become novel length at that point. Here’s one: I was applying for food benefits and I sent her a form to fill out to submit to the services agency. I forwarded it to her and she hesitated to fill it out because she didn’t think the form “looked professional.” I told her that it was what they sent me. Days later I get an e-mail from her but the body of the e-mail was clearly meant for someone else (in the lines of “AnonAndOn needs this form filled out and submitted to social services by a certain time. Thank you for your help!”) and the incomplete form was attached. I let her know and she apologized. It was as if she was stalling. They never filled the form out and my benefits were denied at that time. I’ve since received them, but no thanks to OfficeTeam.

      Some temp agencies lie their behinds off or pull mess like I mentioned above. They’ll say that an organization is “a great place to work!” because they want their placement fee or to fill a quota and they aren’t going to tell the truth about how a place really is. There’s Glassdoor, but not all of these places have Glassdoor reviews. I’m the first and only Glassdoor review for that awful place I was sent to. But because I’m on unemployment I can’t refuse jobs or I’ll lose my benefits. If I say I need a job that’s FT, pays such and such amount per hour or per year, and that’s on public transportation because I don’t have a car, they’ll give me an assignment that’s PT, less than what I make on unemployment, that has horrible online reviews, and is only accessible with a car. But since I’m between a rock and a hard place I have to accept whatever’s thrown my way or unemployment will consider that a refusal and discontinue my benefits. That’s why I’m hoping to find something on my own merit and not be reliant on a temp agency. Temp agencies don’t really know what I need from a job. Only I know what’s best for me in a job. Temp agencies also work for the client who pays them, not the employee, regardless of if they say “if there’s a problem with an assignment give us a call!”.

      I’ve had ones that are local to where I am at the moment that were more professional and communicative with me, but they don’t have branches in Dallas/Fort Worth. I think you’d have better luck with smaller local agencies that would give more hands on service. Best of luck to you in your search!

    8. Raine*

      Most of my long-term jobs started out as or were temp assignments. One of the key lessons I learned was: if you’re not calling the agency every week to check in and say you’re available, it’s likely you won’t hear from them unless one or more of the following conditions is true: they need a warm body to fill the position (which is not always an awful thing, depending on what they ask you to do, the pay rate, and how long you’re doing the thing), they like your resume/you/your skills, they really need you because their preferred temp isn’t available, and/or they completely misread your resume and think you can do something you don’t know how to do. The big agencies are all independently operated (Kelly Services, AppleOne, Robert Half, Manpower, etc.) so every office is different, and sometimes the person answering the front desk phone or even acting as a junior recruiter is also a temp. You are likely to have better luck with a position that’s temp to hire rather than temp because usually that means the agency or the actual firm is interested in interviewing candidates, screening resumes, and basically following the standard hiring process. Temp could mean stuffing envelopes or sitting alone in an office waiting for the phone to ring/UPS to show up while the regular staff are on a retreat (both of which I’ve done) or completely not using your transferable skills in any meaningful way; set your expectations accordingly, read the description of the job, and ask questions of the recruiter. If you choose to temp long-term for one agency, you’re more likely to get the better positions, but it takes a lot of effort to get there and it can really depend on the recruiter with whom you’re working.

    9. Julia Gulia*

      I got my current job through a temp agency as a temp-to-hire, and the temp agency played games and outright lied to me about pay. They were getting a set amount, and all my negotiations on my own behalf cut into their profit. They pressured me to be secretive about the process, and after I was hired my boss was disgusted to learn about everything that had gone on. Find out exactly how your pay would work, how the temp agency gets its cut, and all the details of your contract and the in-betweens.

  43. Anonymous Pterodactyl*

    In last week’s open thread, I asked about what recourse a friend of mine had in pushing back on utterly unreasonable overtime requirements from his employer (for anyone who didn’t see it, another department was told to start working 16 hour days, 7 days a week, indefinitely, and he was worried his would be next).

    Well, his department ended up being told they’d have to work 12 hour days, also over weekends. They were initially told it would “just” be for 2 weeks, but given how far the owners let two major projects get behind, he’s pretty sure it will end up being way longer than that. That’s not something he was willing to do (for one thing, he has out of town plans over the weekend), and he decided he was going to quit the following day. I channeled my little inner Alison and suggested he resign, with 2 weeks notice, citing the new overtime requirement, and inform them that during his last 2 weeks he would be able to work his regular hours but not the requested 12-hour days. If they accepted that, cool. If they gave him any pushback, he could calmly state that he understood if that wouldn’t work for them and that it sounded like that should be his last day. He grumbled a little about having to work there any longer than absolutely necessary, but liked being able to say he wasn’t fired and didn’t quit without notice.

    And it worked! He’s working there for 2 more weeks, on his regular schedule – unsurprisingly, given how much work they have to complete, they were willing to take whatever he was willing to agree to. He already feels so much happier knowing he’s going to be done soon, plus he gets 2 more weeks of pay he was willing to walk away from, a little time to job search, and feeling good that he’s not totally screwing his one other coworker by just walking away.

    He had a *ton* of leverage in that situation, and I do think that if he’d wanted to stay at the job but not do the overtime (or do less of it, or negotiate some major benefit in exchange for some overtime, or whatnot), he would have been able to. I think he did consider it, but he already disliked the job for various reasons (terrible hours, incompetent owners/management, actual job wasn’t what he was told he’d be doing, etc) and had been sort of job searching already. He was ready to move on, and there really wouldn’t have been much point in negotiating expectations in that context.

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      I love this story. Congrats to your friend! And congrats to you for helping him! That’s always a good feeling. :)

  44. Foreign Octopus*

    Not really looking for advice (although I’ll take it if anyone has some) but I have an adult student (36) who constantly, and I mean constantly, bites her nails throughout our daily 90 minute class. I’m not sure she’s aware that she’s doing it but she constantly has a hand up to her mouth chewing away. I’ll ask her a question and she’ll drop her hand long enough to answer and then it’s back up.

    It reminds me of the letter not too long ago about someone in the office who would pick their nose in public.

    It turns my stomach to see her doing it every time and because it’s a small class (2-4 students), I can’t not look at her. Thankfully, the course ends next Wednesday and I don’t have to teach her again after that but it’s really off-putting and has actually coloured my opinion of her.

    So it made me wonder, what are some office/work habits that drive you crazy? Or that you do that is a little weird?

    1. Lumen*

      As for bizarre habits: my coworkers often bang their keyboards on the desk to get random particles out from them. It’s so bizarre, since you don’t need to use any force to tidy up your equipment. But occasionally just this sudden banging from behind me or to my side. Also I have a coworker whose ‘thoughtful’ noises at random sound… well, like something you’d hear in a bedroom. She’s quiet, but it always startles me.

      For what it’s worth: I feel your student’s pain. I’ve been a nail-biter for 30 years and even though I do a lot better than I used to, it still comes out when I’m very stressed or intensely focused. I hate it, it’s embarrassing, and the last thing I want anyone to think about me is that I’m gross. Yay for compulsive behaviors, right?

      She probably does not realize she is doing it when she’s doing it, feels deeply embarrassed when she does realize she was doing it, and might just be really, really focused while she’s in class with you.

      If you have a similar problem in the future, maybe take the student aside privately to address it as a distraction (not “ew, you’re disgusting”) and ask if they’re okay (they might not be) and if there’s any accommodations you can make in class (such as having them bring in a *silent* fidget toy to keep their hands busy). May or may not be appropriate in your situation to have this conversation, but also might help keep your very small classroom happier and healthier (since nail-biting is very unhygienic, too).

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        Oh lord, I’d never tell her it was disgusting. I’m far too British to even think of saying that. It’s just a difficult conversation to even think about having and I know that Alison tells us to have the conversation in the most polite way as possible but framing it is difficult.

        Also, we only have three lessons left so it’s not really worth the trouble.

        As for your workmates’ habit – weird. The keyboard banging would scare the hell out of me (I startle very easily) and I would probably start laughing if I heard those sounds, at least the first couple of times. It’s very peculiar!

    2. Jessica*

      I’m a college professor. Every winter, I have at least one student who straight up picks their nose during lecture. After a few years, I’m pretty sure that they don’t realize what they’re doing (along with the spectator feeling that some students have in a lecture class, where they feel like the professor can’t really see them). But it was truly shocking the first time it happened. The guy was paying attention to the lecture, so he was basically staring at me, nodding when I asked questions, making eye contact with me, all with his finger buried inside his nostril. It felt incredibly aggressive (although of course it wasn’t meant to be). I mean, we live in a society, sir.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I was just drinking some wine and nearly spat it on the cat at “we live in a society, sir.”

        I now desperately want to use that when talking to someone.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I don’t know if this helps or not, but a while ago I read of a study that found a correlation between nail biting and issues with the mother of the nail biter.
      I have also seen in my own life that people with calcium issues can be nail biters.
      So there are things in the background contributing the nail biting habit.

      I wondered why she did not run out nail to bite, it sounded like she is non-stop biting them. I did know a girl in grammar school who sucked her thumb up to 7th grade. She did it in a manner that looked like nail biting, it was weird.

    4. JulieBulie*

      I sometimes twirl my hair until I realize that I”m doing it, and then I stop… until I start again.

  45. Drew*

    I am sad because a long-time colleague gave her notice and yesterday was her last day. We’ll miss her around the office and I’m pretty sure most people weren’t aware of how many different things she was doing, so there will be balls dropped in the next few months until we settle into a new routine.

    But – our mutual boss has agreed that I can move into her space, meaning I am out of the bullpen and into an office! Woo! It’s a shared office, but I’ll be sharing with someone I work closely with anyway and we get along great and our hours aren’t totally in sync, so I’ll have the office to myself a lot of the time.

    The timing for this move is good (although the reason sucks) because it looks like my slack time is over; I’m about to start on a major new project and I’ve been asked to consult on a couple more. Time to close the door (I HAVE A DOOR) and get to work!

  46. Stephanie*

    Questions for the engineers out here. I’m about to start my last year of my MS. Plan is to graduate next May. However, I could graduate in December with some shuffling of classes–it would require dropping the research project and picking up an extra class this upcoming semester. Cost difference would be an extra semester of living expenses (my tuition is funded through a fellowship); I live in a cheap-ish city. I originally thought I wanted to do a more research-oriented job, but I don’t see myself doing that anymore nor do I see myself doing a PhD. Degree is the same (both are MSes).

    (1) Is it worth sticking around to do the thesis? Upside is I could get a writing sample, maybe a publication (if I really busted my ass this year), and probably have the reference from my advisors (again, if I really busted my ass this year), and I’d graduate more in-line with a lot of big company recruiting.

    (2) Do companies view non-thesis and thesis masters equivalently? Or is there a difference?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Cost difference is really living expenses + a half-year of salary at whatever new job you get.

      I don’t know enough about hiring masters candidates to speak intelligently on the other questions. The only thing I could see in my industry is if the thesis really helps you develop a very specific subject matter expertise, then I would say do it. For example, we have a water quality engineer with a Ph.D. who started at a higher level than other post-BS process engineers in the water department.

    2. CityMouse*

      I hate to equivocate it but it really depends on field and what you want to do. If you are going into a more research oriented field, I think the thesis wouod help. If you are going into business where you are doing things like design or review, it probably wouldn’t matter but could depend on your boss.

    3. J.B.*

      I am an engineer with a MS, and I don’t think anyone I’ve ever worked for has cared about the thesis. It would depend on your specific field of course, but if you want to work in engineering consulting I don’t think it would matter either way.

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, the research project has mostly come up as just a talking point in interviews. What I’m researching happens to relate to where I’m interning, but I think they would have hired me without the research component.

    4. Jubilance*

      So not engineering, but I had a similar experience in a physical science (chemistry). I started a PhD but decided to go MS after I passed my candidacy. I originally wanted to go the thesis route, but then I found a job and also was ready to just be done, so I went coursework only. It hasn’t been a hinderance in my career.

      In my experience, coursework-only MS in engineering is very common. Most of my friends who have an engineering MS did coursework-only; thesis was really for the ones who were thinking about doing a PhD.

    5. Liz*

      What matter the most I think is doing an internship. If you have not done one and can between now and May, do that. Otherwise, start job hunting about now and get the degree done early.

    6. Uncivil Engineer*

      I agree with CityMouse in that it depends on the field and what you want to do. A Master’s is not required for regular, civil engineering design work. When I hire, I just make note of whether an applicant has a semi-relevant MS or not. Applicants with an MS are given a little boost in the process of screening to see who gets invited to interview but, after that, it’s all about actual work experience and what design skills you bring to the team.

    7. Kvothe*

      Really depends on what industry you’re in but where I’m at an employer wouldn’t even care that you had a masters. Myself and a guy I work with were hired at the same time, he had his masters and I didn’t and we do the exact same job and my salary is actually a bit higher than his.

    8. katamia*

      How’s the flow of the hiring season for what you want to do? Will one more semester instead of two be enough time to find a job before you graduate?

      1. Stephanie*

        Yeah, honestly that’s some of the pause. There’s a huge career fair on campus in September. The majority of the recruiting is done then and I think employers try to get offers in the late fall. A lot of MegaCorp new hire stuff tends to be in the summer. There are a lot of three-semester masters programs at my university (and PhD students finish mid-year or in the summer all the time), but anecdotally speaking (yeah yeah), people who graduated in December usually do have an awkward lag between graduation and starting (as in, they have two to three months before starting) or just plan to travel or work a temp job until the summer new hire class.

    9. Saviour Self*

      To start – I am not an engineer but I hire civil engineers, specifically in the geotechnical, structural, and mechanical disciplines.

      To actually answer your question – it depends on the role and company to which you’re applying. For one of my positions, I would not care about you being published, I would not ask for a writing sample, and I would not ask whether you were a thesis or non-thesis master.

      I would care about your real-world work experience. I would ask for your transcript (company policy). and I would want to know that you understood, or were familiar with (depending on level of hire), the necessary codes and guidelines for our area of civil engineering.

      1. Stephanie*

        Ok, thanks! I actually worked for a few years before going back (a lot of my experience wasn’t the most recruiter friendly and I had a lot of trouble finding work, which was part of the impetus for going back).

    10. PX*

      I think you’re doing mechanical right? I studied and had my first job in mainland Europe so my perspective is completely different, but there you cannot graduate without a thesis at all, and most companies would absolutely want to know what your thesis was about and how you did it. Perhaps its a difference in how they are structured, but in my university (engineering only), you could do either a more research oriented thesis or a practical oriented one. I did the latter, and I worked with a company.

      It usually allows you the opportunity to showcase real world skills (think of it as a 2nd internship) where you analyse a problem, try to identify a solution, deal with real engineering problems, communicate it to various audiences (company vs academic, presentations and final written report) and are (usually) all by yourself (they are often fairly independent pieces of work) so you can demonstrate time management, self-driven type skills.

      All of which to say is that my vote is do a (useful!) thesis.

  47. SueInIT*

    I have an awkward situation that I don’t know how to deal with, if at all. I work in IT, naturally in a group of mostly men, and some of them have “colorful” language to describe IT situations. As an example, one phrase used when a system has crashed is “tits up” – you know, like it fell on its back… (. )(. ) Now this is pretty vulgar but is typical of the language used. The guy who says this is 60 years old and apparently has used this phrase since his days in the navy. I don’t think it qualifies as sexual harassment since it’s not directed at anyone, but it seems to be language that is more derogatory toward women, and just frankly, I don’t like it. What would you do about this if anything??

    1. LCL*

      When ever someone uses a colorful phrase, ask them ‘oh, do mean it’s non-functional, broken, etc?’ Substitute the correct technical phrase for the slang. People will get the idea. That particular phrase is used to mean dead, because dead things lie on their back.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you should say something, but how you say something and how often you say it will depend on what your culture is like and how ingrained the sexism is in your co-workers. Sometimes you want to do a “Wow! I can’t believe you just said that” or more of a “Why did you say that?” Other times, you may want to have a separate meta conversation (in private—not in front of the whole group) about “Hey, it’s not cool to say blah-blah-blah.”

      You will likely get pushback. You will likely get a lot of “Oh, that’s just how I talk” or “Don’t be sensitive/PC” or “Just relax.” You may not be able to change them, but you may be able to plant a seed at least.

    3. Lumen*

      How nice of you to understand that they are men and have been manly men and it was okay to use vulgar language in the workplace when they were in more manly macho man places.

      You are in a professional environment, and so are they. It doesn’t sound like it qualifies as harassment or a hostile environment, but it clearly makes you uncomfortable, it’s clearly gendered, and it will not harm them or impact their work in any shape, form, or fashion to cut this nonsense out.

      I like LCL’s suggestion to just parrot back to them appropriate language when you’re ‘in the moment’. You might also try talking to the 60 year old and simply explaining that while you understand what he’s saying isn’t meant to be offensive and isn’t personal, it makes you uncomfortable at work and you’d like the ‘colorful’ language to stop. And if he’s confused, use ‘tits up’ as an example. Maybe get him on your side; the rest of the team might fall in if they see an older man doing it.

    4. AwkwardKaterpillar*

      Sexual harassment doesn’t necessarily have to be directed at anyone. He’s making sexual comments, in general, that are making you uncomfortable and feel derogatory to your gender.. I think you are well within your rights to be upset. Do you feel you could say anything if you wanted? Or would that not be well received?

      If not, I would consider mentioning something to your manager. If it’s bothering you, it could very well be bothering others that are not speaking up either.

    5. Construction Safety*

      Well, you could respond in kind. . . , but that would probably only encourage him.

    6. Admin of Sys*

      huh – I’ve never considered that a gendered term actually, I just considered it a more rough way of saying belly up. (and have heard it referred to many non-gendered machines, though I guess if you push it, you could consider tractors and servers as female?) That said, maybe try to correct him to ‘belly up’ ?

      1. N.J.*

        I’m confused. The use with a machine isn’t the gendered thing. The phrase itself is gendered…tits is slang for breasts…the male biological gender doesn’t typically have breasts so it’s a gendered term because it refers to a typically biologically female body part. It has nothing to do with assigning gender to a machine

        1. hankypanky?*

          actually, yes, men have breasts
          maybe I’m too old to bother to be offended by trivial things like this.
          And yes, I’m female

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            maybe I’m too old to bother to be offended by trivial things like this.

            I’m not sure what the point of this line here is. Are you trying to say no concerns are valid unless they’re valid to you directly?

          2. N.J.*

            Yes, men have breasts. Biological and male presenting. All people have nipples too. The reason I didn’t go into a long screed about the difference between biologically male breasts and biologically female breasts is because I didn’t feel like it. As it seems that may have somehow caused you to devalue what I said in my comment, I can go into more details.

            Biologically male breasts are ones that are treated as socially acceptable to walk around without their shirts on, for instance. Since “female” breasts are typically more visually developed and are heavily sexualized, “tits” is used to refer mostly to female presenting breasts, at least very generally speaking. Please tell me how many male presenting individuals have gotten the compliment of “nice tits,” for instance? On my personal offense meter, tits doesn’t bother me all that much, but it is a term widely perceived to be gendered and it does (1) sexualize a work environment to use that type of terminology and (2) does offend enough people, gendered or not, to categorize as something appropriate to ask someone to stop doing at work. Microagressions, casual sexism and gendered language may or may not bother you particularly, but why would we devalue that the OP is feeling about this phrase just because you don’t care??? I said I was confused that the commenter above didn’t know it was gendered and I was, so I explained why, at least in my view, it was gendered.

            Please don’t triviliaze how gendered language can make people feel, it exists whether you are bothered by it or not.

            Is there something else in my comment that upset you that I can try to address?

    7. Serious Sam*

      Industry standard acronym:
      Total
      Inability
      To
      Support
      Usual
      Performance.
      See The Register.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Are you trying to say that this was an acronym that just came about randomly and happens to be the same as an existing idiom? Sounds more like they liked the expression and decided to make an acronym out of the it.

        2. JustaTech*

          Looks like a backronym to me. (Like saying “tips” means “to Insure Prompt Service”.)

    8. RainyKeyboard*

      Personally, when this kind of comment floats by me, I usually raise my brows and respond with something like, “Dude, we’re not in an episode of Mad Men. You totally can’t say that anymore.” Then I might smile/laugh and say, “No…Just Please No. Not cool” while shaking my head.

      It works for me, in that I don’t create a hugely awkward moment (yup, I’m conflict averse) and the person can laugh it off without losing face, but they totally get the message that I am not OK with it and it’s not socially acceptable in this day and age. I might have to repeat this kind of reaction once or twice more…but any more than that and I would probably raise the issue with my boss. It’s 2017 for pete’s sake.

      1. Starbuck*

        My preference is a simple “yikes,” a slight pause, and then moving on. I feel like it nicely balances my desire to correct such situations, with my total lack of desire for putting in the effort of explaining basic standards of decency to adults who ought to know better. I admire those who have the patience to explain further; if only I’d held on to mine longer!

    9. Not So NewReader*

      You may not want to die on this hill, it’s an individual’s call.
      Does he use these terms in front of non-coworkers? This could be customers or people in other departments. If he doesn’t then you have proof that he knows it’s not okay because he does monitor his language in front of outsiders.
      You could ask him to dial back on the body part references. Or you could say that you noticed other people aren’t using expressions like that. Your solution might be as simple as saying “How come you don’t use those expressions in front of [insert outsiders names here]?”

      If it is your hill to die on, then you can to ask him to stop. He’s not in the navy any more and the salty language does not fit the workplace. You can say that you noticed a lot of his expressions are derogatory toward women and there is no need. Or maybe you could talk to HR or your boss.

      In the 80s and early 90s I would target one or two expressions and just ask the person not to use them around me, such as the c word. It was less common then for women to speak up so I would just pick the worst of the bad and speak up about that part. Generally, people would dial it back.
      More recently a woman I was working with was using a certain term. The setting was such that I did not feel comfortable saying something (many factors were at play here) so I went to the boss. “Do we really have to say X every day? Is everyone aware of what that word actually means?” The boss squelched that problem.

      My thinking is that some people will never “get it”. You have to go instance by instance or word by word and explain why that is not cool or even why it could cause legal problems. With other people you can point out one or two things and they will figure the rest out on their own. Try to gauge what type of a person he is and that will probably help you figure out how to proceed.

      I had a coworker who cussed like very few people I know. I asked him to reduce the vulgar expressions by 50%. I said that he cussed so much I was losing the point of what he was saying, he cussed to the point of distraction. I didn’t know you could fit the f word into a sentence that many times. I said, “It bothers me when I don’t get what a person is telling me.”

      I am not there and I do not see what you see. It could be that it would be best just to go to HR or the boss.

      2. Snorks*

        Titsup means not working. Penis up is, well, the opposite meaning!
        Plus i really doubt the guy would be offended by them saying penis up.

    11. Nye*

      Is he British (or from a Commonwealth country)? I recall hearing it a lot in the UK and New Zealand. Maybe he just picked it up in his travels.

      It’s in common enough use that I’d ignore it if you can. Just another example of our rich and colorful language. If it really, really bugs you, I’d approach it with him in the “it’s not you, it’s me” way that Alison often recommends. “I’m so sorry, but that phrase really bugs me for some reason. Would you mind saying “belly-up” instead?” I think that’s the best path to having him stop without causing major office drama.

      Please don’t approach this as sexual harassment! If you’re in IT, I’m sure there are plenty of battles to fight on that front – don’t waste your ​social/political capital on this.

  48. MommaCat*

    I know there’s an entire open thread about how to get things done with ADHD (answer: LISTS) but what are your favorite types of lists? Favorite apps? I need help getting things done at work, so… I’ve recently started using Habitica and Google Keep, which seem to be working ok so far. Any other suggestions?

    1. Liz Lemon*

      Oh, man, what timing. I was just recently diagnosed with ADHD (and its like the missing piece to the puzzle of my life!).

      I cant’ use digital lists with much luck, because I pick up my phone to add something to the list, see that I have a new text message, and 25 minutes later I put my phone down, having never added The Thing to The List.

      So I’m trying to stick with a paper notebook and a regular, ongoing to-do list there. (I.e. one notebook, instead of a million scraps of paper everywhere, which is my norm.)

      I also just bought the SELF journal, which is all about achieving goals and time management. I’m curious to see how it will work, but I’m hoping it might help me to learn to plan/manage my time a bit better.

      I’ve also had good luck with the Pomodoro Method, and there are aps you can download on your desktop to use…and honestly I forget to use them most of the time. Ha! But when I do, they are really helpful.

      2. MommaCat*

        I can’t say that I was just diagnosed, but I was just referred for an evaluation for ADHD, and it totally feels like a missing piece of the puzzle! I’m exactly opposite when it comes to what lists work; my phone is like my second brain, so I’m already used to having all my meetings and appointments on the calendar. Paper lists stress me out, because I can’t format it as easily, and I’m always thinking about new to-dos that should live near another to-do because they’re similar but there isn’t enough room, I lose lists…

      3. she was a fast machine*

        Oh my goodness, are you me? I keep paper lists and phone lists but this happens to me ALL. THE. TIME.

      4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        The way I’ve managed that is to have the home screen on my phone be a to-do list. The moment I unlock my phone, there it is, staring me in the face.

    2. Jayess*

      Yeah, similar to Liz Lemon. People make fun of me for having such old fashioned technology as a notebook, but I use the (basic version! Not the crazy art project version!) bullet journal approach, and it works reallllllllly well for me. I like it versus an actual agenda book or planning journal, because I also kind of freak out if I “get behind” using the pre-printed days of the week, or the structure doesn’t work for me. A simple lined notebook, where I can write down the day, plug in my lists, doodle in the margins, or even forget to use it for a week, is excellent.

    3. Nanc*

      Sometime within the past year (or maybe 2 years?) several AAMers mentioned the Bullet Journal method. I’ve never been able to keep up with a digital list (although I use a digital calendar) and I use a modified version of Bullet Journal. I jot the basics on the page and if it’s an involved project I create a Word doc where I can go to town on the details (put the name of the Word doc on the journal page!).

    4. LDP*

      I really like EverNote! You can download it to your desktop and there’s an app. It’s great because you can add boxes that you can check off, numbers, bullets, all of it. Plus, it organizes everything into “notebooks”, so you can have one for work lists, one for personal lists, etc.

    5. Boötes*

      A friend with ADHD strongly recommends TickTick. I got Long Day (possibly because it was recommended here) but haven’t put it to use yet.

      I <3 using intervals for work as well as house chores and recommend "Interval Timer – Timing for HIIT Training and Workouts" by Deltaworks. It's free. You create your own sets: for brain-in-jar blitzes, I made one that beeps every minute for 20 minutes (for chores, say, I'll challenge myself to put 6 things away per minute). For tasks requiring cognitive engagement, I'll do perhaps 6 sets of 8 min/2 min so, with an eye to making decent progress in an hour, I have 10 minutes for each of 6 sub-tasks with a 2-minute reminder for each time chunk. Season to taste :)

  49. Liz Lemon*

    Any advice on sharing critical feedback with a manager?

    Overall, I really love my manager and we definitely have a strong relationship. But she has a history of being overly critical of the messages we write to customers (think “Newest Teapot Now Launched!”), and once every few months will tell us that she needs to approve all of these kinds of emails and/or only certain people on the team are “allowed” to do this kind of work–work that is really just a standard part of our jobs.

    Because of this many people are afraid to share the templates they write and the people who are “allowed” to do this work get resentful because they have to do everyone else’s work–and the list of who’s “allowed” to do this changes, so that’s its own anxiety. (I’m often on it, but not always, for example.) (And there’s general consensus among my team that Boss, while amazing at a lot of things, is actually bad at writing/editing these kinds of messages.)

    Recently Boss sent out an email reminding us to share these templates with one another, and it set off a lot of anxiety and drama behind the scenes (i.e. she didn’t see any of it), with some people angry that they are doing all this work for the team, and other people afraid to deal with the potential critique, etc.

    I’d like to reach out to my boss and talk with her about the ways she’s causing a lot of anxiety and slowing down productivity here, but I don’t want to overstep.

    Anyone successfully shared this kind of feedback with a manager? Or for that matter unsuccessfully?

    1. ThatGirl*

      I would not think about it as “sharing critical feedback”. I would approach it as this is a problem the team is having, and you need her help to solve it.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yep, talk about lost time, redundancy of effort, misplaced effort and endless worry so on. She could come up with a guideline for people to follow.
        She could make a collection of standardized letters that fit recurring situations. In my place I have over 500 letters to chose from. Yeah, you see the problem. It can take all day just to pick out which letter to use. But maybe if she had 10-12 standardized letters people could use them for the foundation for their situation that they need to write about.
        My own boss has been very supportive in making it clear what NOT to say. Sometimes that is the way to handle letter writing, is giving examples and guides of things you cannot say.

  50. Decima Dewey*

    I had a morning today. Yesterday my guard had put in a Building Service Request to fix some shelving in the Children’s section. Our library system has three branches on X Avenue, and our branch is one of them. Contractor came in, put in the alarm code for X Avenue Branch, which isn’t ours. So the alarm goes off, contractor’s on the phone to alarm company. They tell him the code is correct (because he thought he *was* at X Avenue Branch), alarm keeps blaring.

    So I arrive, put in the correct alarm code, the alarm is silenced, and manage not to throttle the contractor, who is apologizing every 45 seconds or so. And the shelves are fixed, so we won’t have hardbacks falling on kids.

    But what a way to start Friday morning.

  51. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

    Can I ask for advice on whether or not others think this is a red flag? I’m a trainer and educator based in the UK, and last week I applied (through a reputable job site) for an associate trainer role which sounded really exciting and interesting, and which would fit well into the portfolio of work I’m developing. The application process was very vanilla (a CV and covering letter), and the company website seems very normal and above-board.

    Today, I had an email from the CEO which read (slightly paraphrased)

    Dear NewHere

    Due to the number of applicants, and impressive quality of those applicants – we have requested video links to see you in action so that we get a flavour of your style. Many candidates have helpfully shared links to videos of them delivering training.

    If you have not yet done so – then try this… One smart applicant (whilst on holiday) stepped into the street and filmed a 2-minute to his phone and sent it to me. Fantastic idea!

    If you would like to be considered for the shortlist, then please follow suit and provide a link.
    Thanks and regards,

    PS: apologies to those who have requested a discussion/phone call. I am unable to take 50+ half hour phone calls at what is an incredibly busy time (end of term).

    Am I wrong in finding the tone of this email a little off? I don’t mind the request of sending a video to show my training style, but without any guidance, I feel at a loss as to what to submit and feel pressured by the suggestion that he basically wants something RIGHT NOW without really saying what that ‘something’ is. I also feel unsure about someone who doesn’t have time for a quick call about the role (I wasn’t one of the people who asked for a call, btw). The biggest red flag for me, I think, the reverent tone towards the guy who when told to jump said ‘how high?’ even though he was on holiday!

    Thoughts would be welcomed! Thank you!

    1. Gandalf the Nude*

      I’m put off for all the reasons you mention but also because it seems like they’ve intentionally orchestrated this pressure. It seems like they’ve found videos necessary or helpful when hiring for this position before, so why didn’t they just ask for them upfront? It would have allowed applicants the time to arrange for more flattering and informative than a video on the street and would have allowed those who weren’t up for that kind of task to opt out before wasting their time on the original application. It reads as a bit of an abuse of the power disparity between hiring manager and applicant.

    2. Caro in the UK*

      This guy sounds like he would be a nightmare to work for, with no sense that employment is a reciprocal arrangement that should be mutually beneficial to both the employer and employee. His email also reads incredibly patronisingly (to me at least), especially that bit about the “smart applicant” doing their video on holiday.

      It also seems like they don’t really know how to hire; they weren’t prepared for the number and quality of applicants, so they’ve come up with some off the cuff test to differentiate them, without actually thinking about what this video will tell them about the applicants.

      Depending on how much I wanted the job, I’d be wary of continuing with the application. If you really want it, do the video for sure, but don’t stress about it. And definitely keep your eyes peeled for more red flags!

    3. Susan*

      I’m not in education/training or the UK, so I don’t know if my opinion is at all helpful, but I totally agree that there is something off about the tone of the e-mail. It would be one thing to say, “Please send a video of yourself in action, with approximately 5 minutes of footage of you providing training on a subject of your choice.” (Or something to that effect — a clear request with guidelines on what he wants.) The way this e-mail is written, it sort of seems like he wants to pit candidates against each other for his own amusement. Also, it seems like he doesn’t want to spend time reading applications to make his short list before asking you to take the time to make a video, which is inconsiderate of candidates’ time. Finally, I detect a bit of humblebragging in that line about being too busy to take 50+ phone calls (“I’m so important and busy that I don’t have time to talk to job candidates! People are just beating down my door to work for me!’). I think you’d be justified in backing out now based on this, but if you’re still interested in the job, maybe just be on the lookout for other red flags.

      1. Snark*

        Yeah, that also strikes me oddly. The whole thing is like watching a PUA trying to pick up a chick in a hotel bar.

      2. paul*

        I’m right there with you; it seems odd as all get out and creepy, but I’m also not British and not in education.

    5. Snark*

      It’s like you’re being negged for not having proactively sent in a little video like the rock star candidates. The vibe is patronizing and coercive and weird.

      1. NewHerePleaseBeNice*

        Thank you everyone for commenting. I’m so glad it’s not just me that has massive reservations about this! As I said it’s an associate (freelance) position so it’s not the end of the world if I don’t move forward with this. I’ve decided not to progress my application, and (as I received this email mid-afternoon on Friday) I’m going to be the ‘business person’ and reply on Monday morning. I haven’t decided exactly what to say but I will be withdrawing on the basis of this email.

        Thanks again for the advice!

    6. Parenthetically*

      I have nothing smart to say, because I just got a full-body shudder at the idea of working for this dude. Ew. Pass.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      He has 50 applicants, so he has to do 50 interviews? No that is not how that works.
      This guy is unable to select a few top applicants out of the pile. He thinks he has to talk to each person, which is not true.
      Since he seems confused on how to conduct interviews, I would worry about what other confusion he has.

      You can do better than work for this place, honest.

    9. JulieBulie*

      This fellow sounds… whimsical. Working for people who are whimsical (in a bad way) is generally very frustrating because they’re always coming up with new ideas and expecting you to drop everything for a complete turn of direction.

      1. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        Which makes you also wonder if they are whimsical in their approach to pay. This guy in writing sounds like a total douchebro – I cannot imagine how he could be in person. Or what other leadership/management skills he (or the company) may be lacking if they have this sort of process and are going to make judgements based on a video.

        Type that email and keep on going!

  52. EA*

    So last week I wrote about the new employee who asked me “when I was going to figure out what to do with my life”, assumed I was her assistant and was generally rude.
    This has escalated, a lot. She takes things off my desk without asking or acknowledging me (I told her to ask first) and tried AGAIN to give me work to do (I told her that I support X and don’t schedule meeting for her). I work for her bosses boss and everyone at her level does their own admin.
    Now she is talking to me in this mocking/sarcastic tone of voice. For example, everyone was talking about summer plans and vacations. I didn’t contribute because I have nothing planned, and she said in this sarcastic tone of voice, “What about YOU ___, do you get to go away like the rest of us”. I just started laughing because I am horrible at reacting when I am shocked, and someone else snapped at her for me.
    I would go to my bosses about this, but they are conflict averse and I don’t think would do anything. They never step in when they should. (Other situations with other people kind of prove this)
    Should I just shut her down every time like I have been doing? Or is there a way to escalate my response to her or have a broader conversation with her.
    And lastly, I am very hurt by how she treats me, and it influences the environment and my experience at work. Does anyone have any suggestions not to take it so personally? I want to move toward it not influencing my day.

    1. Liz Lemon*

      It sounds like you’re dealing with a workplace bully, with power dynamics that compound the issue, and if I were you my feelings would be hurt too. I find that acknowledging that my feelings are legit actually makes it easier to not be overwhelmed by them; telling myself I should just “shrug it off,” always just makes me feel worse.

      I know you don’t think your bosses would do anything, but it’s probably worth going to them, so you can cross it off the list of “things to do” in the situation. And maybe they’ll surprise you. But if they don’t, you can consider going to HR, etc.

      1. Artemesia*

        They might not DO anything but you might poison the well a bit when she is being considered for promotion or whatever. I would think very carefully about the things your bosses value and see if you could formulate your complaint about her to hit their hobby horses. e.g. they may not care about her being a jerk to you but what about weak interpersonal skills with clients? Think strategically about how to hurt her up the chain of command. My fear would be that she would finagle a way to get you officially assigned to assist her as well as your current boss.

        1. EA*

          This is helpful.

          She is a low-level data analyst and there is no risk of me being assigned to her. I support an SVP, it isn’t allowed at her level to have an admin.

          1. Toph*

            Then I think that’s also a good angle to be approaching it from. Even if your boss is too conflict averse to do much, or might not care about the rudeness factor or the taking your stuff part, you’re spot on with the fact that you are there to support your boss, not her, and she’s supposed to do her own admin. So the thing about her trying to assign you work, or get you to do things that are effectively supporting her when she explicitly doesn’t get that at her level should have get you some traction with your boss. It’s your boss’s job to defend your time, but even if he won’t do it for you, he should be doing it for himself.

    2. neverjaunty*

      She’s an ass; you could replace yourself with a talking potted plant and she’d still be an ass. In other words, it can’t possibly be about you, so don’t take it personally :)

      I would definitely go to your bosses, even if they are conflict-averse, so if something escalates at least they can’t pretend later they would totally have done something if only they’d known.

    3. CityMouse*

      Please go to your boss. If someone was doing this to my assistant, I would want to know. I am very protective of my admin and would flip out. Her behavior is not okay.

    4. Snark*

      ““What about YOU ___, do you get to go away like the rest of us”. I just started laughing because I am horrible at reacting when I am shocked, and someone else snapped at her for me.”

      I actually think this was a beautiful response, in that it gave her no ammo and treated her like a laughable boor.

      I do think you need to go to your boss and the unpleasant new kid’s boss. Give them the benefit of the doubt. And I think being sharp with her is warranted. “Jane, we’ve discussed this in the past; I’m [grandboss’] assistant, not yours, and I don’t schedule your meetings or support your tasks.” “Jane, I’ve requested that you ask before taking my things off my desk, and that expectation stands.”

      And if she gets that mocking tone, the frosty pause followed by open-ended question is magic. ““What about YOU ___, do you get to go away like the rest of us?”

      “Why wouldn’t I?” Puzzled eyebrow lift. Or, “What an odd question.” Or, “….Yes. Of course.”

      1. Artemesia*

        I’d probably say, ‘oh no, they just unplug me and store me in the closet till Monday morning.’ And lock up your valued work tools so she can’t easily ‘borrow them’ — a bore to have to do this, but probably necessary.

        1. Havarti*

          Yes, keep only what you’re willing to lose on your desk and lock the rest up. I got real tired of replacing my scissors…

        3. Observer*

          Yes. Also, if she takes something off your desk, tell her to give it back and then reach out and take it back.

    5. Sunshine Brite*

      The gall. She is brand new; this is her best behavior. Whoever her manager is should be made aware of this immediately. I’d say your bosses too in case it escalates further. Shut her down every single time and follow-up how you’re having to ‘re-teach processes and proper support structure’ on top of things that are actually your duties.

      1. Em*

        Totally deadpan: “Wow. You are new so this is you on your best behaviour.” Look of disapproval and small head shake.

    6. paul*

      Is it OK to complain to her boss about her behavior, or do you have to go through yours?

      Personally, after repeated instances, particularly if it seems like higher ups aren’t going to be involved, I can get pretty snarky with people like that. I think shutting them down hard is acceptable (but your workplace dynamics matter here).

    7. Former Retail Manager*

      If I’m reading this correctly, you do not support her in any way and there is really no reason for her to interact with you. If that is the case, I’d simply not participate in any small talk when she’s present and, if they’re all gathering at your desk, perhaps tell them that you really need to focus to finish a task and ask them to move away. If she keeps asking you to do things, I’d just become a broken record. “As we’ve discussed on multiple previous occasions, I am GrandBoss’ EA, exclusively. I can’t assist you. Perhaps one of your co-workers can.” If she keeps up the requests for assistance or asks like you are her assistant, I’d take it to your boss at that point.

      And if it were me personally, and I had a good rapport with any of her co-workers, I might discreetly ask around to see what her own people think of her. If she has also pissed off her own co-workers, I might put a bug in their ear that she’s done it to you as well and suggest that one of them speak to their boss. I have unfortunately witnessed too many situations in which EA’s/secretaries concerns are glossed over/written off, but those same concerns expressed from another party are taken more seriously. Good luck! She’s a turd.

    8. Djuna*

      I can’t help with the shutting her down part, but I can offer some advice that may make her obnoxious behavior a little less hurtful.

      She is patently not a nice person, and if someone is a bully, or rude, or sarcastic/mocking at other people, then they aren’t someone I can respect. If I don’t respect a person, I couldn’t care less what their opinion of me is.
      I used that thought process a LOT when I was in retail, and it genuinely can make you teflon when people are slinging insults at you. It can be hard to flip that mental switch, but if you can do it around her, it could help a lot.

      Of course, this can also result in shutting her nonsense down, because she won’t get the reaction she wants from you. Continue to be polite, but don’t let her barbs land and she’ll wear herself out eventually. If this works for you, and she moves on to another target – have a quiet word with them and share the trick.

    9. Observer*

      Go to your boss – not because you expect them to do anything for you but to make sure they know the problem exists. That should help keep them from promoting her to the point where she has power. Also, you want (passive, at least) permission to shut her down as forcefully as you need to.

    10. Not So NewReader*

      “There you go again with that sarcastic tone, what is up with that?”

      “Jane, you need to return my scissors and get your own. You know how to requisition supplies, right? I cannot keep going over this with you.” (Here you are upping your game. People do not like being reminded that they have been told before. Be sure to use this technique. Remind her that you two have discussed this before and it is not news.)

      “Leave it to you, Jane. Everyone else is having a pleasant conversation about vacations and you have to throw in snark. No one else is being snarky, just you. Why is that?” (Here you twist the focus of the conversation. She never intended to talk about her snark.)

      Part of taking it personally can stem from knowing that we did not stand up for ourselves. I think once you make a concentrated effort to stand up for yourself you will feel less pain. And standing up for yourself can be a lot of things, like talking to the boss, getting ideas from others and so on.
      One thing I did was use my commute time to autopsy what happened today and how I could better respond to it. It took regular autopsies for me to develop my ability to think on my feet. I am not use to having to do verbal combat like this and I had to teach myself. Long story short, I decided that I would like comebacks that throw the remark down in a neutral place, where the other person cannot say too much. Personally, I think your laughter was perfect for the vacation remark. It fits the goal of being something the other person cannot do a lot with in response. (As an aside, try to remember who stood up for you. That person would probably be a good person to talk with.)

      Don’t forget, if things get too out of hand, you can just say, “Jane, that is really not appropriate in an office environment.” Say it in a flat, bored sounding voice.

  53. Audiophile*

    How do you deal with a colleague who’s hot and cold?

    I have a colleague who switches between the two pretty rapidly. While it’s not unbearable, it is annoying. I can notice the tone change from amiable to one of annoyance. I have to bite my tongue a bit to avoid matching his snippiness.

    1. FDCA In Canada*

      I have one of these. I end up avoiding her as much as possible. It’s a bad situation, because everyone else is forced to walk on eggshells around her mood, but all we can really do is keep our interactions as short as possible to avoid having a tantrum unleashed on us.

    2. neverjaunty*

      I favor the slightly uncomfortable pause, like he’s just made a huge social error that I’m trying to figure out how to politely ignore, before continuing on with what I was saying.

      That, and interacting with such colleagues minimally and with professional distance.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      Ignore his tone and proceed like he was a rational person anyway.
      Chances are you’ll still get what you need out of him and avoid most of the drama this way.

      1. Audiophile*

        When it happened the other day, I just broke it down and explained I was the messenger in this case. That seemed to defuse it a bit.
        He’s young, and I think that’s part of it. I also think most people laugh it off. I’m sure he only does it with people at his level.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      It’s really not appropriate to be switching like that, you never know if you have Dr. Jeckyl or Mr. Hyde.
      It can interfere with the workplace efforts over time, as no one wants to approach him.

      I can see in the future that people might be saying that, too, “Dr. Jeckyl is not approachable. You don’t know what kind of a reception you will get from one minute to the next.” Keep an eye, this is something you might be able to go to the boss about.

      It could be that you can work into conversation, “You seem upset, is something wrong?” And after a while, “I have notice several times I have asked you if something was wrong. I hope things get to a place where you are not upset so much.” Sometimes dragging a pattern out into the light of day is enough to stop the behavior. Or sometimes the person just stops doing it in front of you because you said something.

  54. Electric Hedgehog*

    I’m temporarily covering a management position for my group, to get me more experience with that type of work for a future promotion. One member of the staff that I’m overseeing is problematic. He second guesses or declines to do anything I ask of him. I also have had numerous complaints that he’s rude or inaccessible when people reach out to him for help. Frankly, I don’t like hi much myself – he doesn’t know nearly as much as he thinks he doe, and h’s protected from any real repercussions for his issues by the fact that he’s related to the usual manager. Sometimes the issues are serious, impacting production schedules or failing to comply with regulation (I think I’ve fixed all of those, though). He’s like 30 years older than me.

    I’m done with this assignment on Monday, so this is mainly just venting. But if I end up managing this team in the future, how should I proceed? The senior leadership team trusts my judgment and would have my back if I needed do anything drastic, but I’d prefer not to need to.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      Oh my gosh he sounds like my Fergus below! No specific advice at the moment, but when you get that promotion, we can brainstorm together! (Oh, but document, document, document.)

    2. Artemesia*

      I would be pre-emptive. In a tone of ‘we all understand this situation’ I would say something like ‘I realize Fergus has been somewhat untouchable because he is Jethro’s BIL but when I managed him before he created problems with clients and refused to do critical tasks he was assigned which caused deadlines to be missed. He is very resistant to direction and seems to think he cannot be held accountable. How do you suggest we proceed with this; I’d rather have a plan in place then to have to come up with something on the spurt of the moment if he continues to interfere with our client relations and productivity.’ You are part of the team with your managers confronting a known problem. (and if he seems to resent being managed by women or by people who are younger, add that to the mix)

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. Your boss should jump in and explain that he is to follow your instruction as you are (or will be at that point) his boss. Your boss should also go on to explain that failure to follow instruction will result in A, B and C happening culminating in firing if necessary.

        Loop your boss in, build a plan and work through the plan.

  55. Stephanie*

    Also, eep. My intern manager can’t make a phone call we have with a supplier today. So it’s just me and the suppliers. I don’t feel super ready. (The last meeting I did solo was ok, but still nervous.)

    1. Drew*

      My boss did that to me right before a very important meeting with a potential new client, although in his defense he got food poisoning and it was a case of “I can’t leave this hotel room, you have to take it.”

      Good news: I did fine and we landed the contract. But it was scary in the moment!

      Go over the key points of what you need to say and you’ll do fine.

    2. paul*

      2013. ACA Marketplace Rollout. We’ve been involved in marketing it, were involved in getting people signed up, etc.

      I get back from lunch, my boss calls me in. “Hey, there’s a conference call with the White House, I’ve got a meeting with our CEO then, so you’re it. It starts in 30.”

      It turns out it was a rah rah thank you thing for community partners, and we were all muted from the start, thank God, but I about damn passed out. That was NOT a nice trick my boss pulled. Hilarious in hindsight once I realized I was just expected to shut the hell up and not contribute though.

    3. Stephanie*

      It was…ok. It probably went worse in my head than it actually did. But I did have the professional version of “I want my mommy” (i.e., I want my boss to help me through this…).

    1. CityMouse*

      So glad for a happy update! I am so glad this worked out, your old advisor was definitely abusing the position.

  58. AnotherAlison*

    Annual health insurance wellness screening at work is finally in the books, and I’m clear for the “better” subsidy for another year. I celebrated with post-fasting donuts from the vending machine. . . feeling rebellious.

    1. k*

      I went wild after a recent life insurance physical by going out for pizza and beer after a couple of weeks of salads. I know two weeks of healthy eating probably didn’t impact their tests much, but I sure did feel like I was cheating the system. The insurance overlords shall never know my double life of junk food! It’s all about the small thrills in life.

  59. AnonTodayBackTomorrow*

    I came in too late to get any advice last week, so I’m trying to get in early today!

    I work for a private university, and like many higher ed institutes, we’re dealing with financial stresses. We’ve had a number of meetings this summer about the situation, and it seemed like they’d gotten everything under control through a series of early retirements/not filling vacancies/significantly increasing our health care premiums (premiums went up between $150-500 a month depending on the policy level you selected and how many people you were covering).

    Wednesday of last week they cancelled the scheduled update meeting, stating there was nothing new to relate. About an hour later, we received a mass email advising us that due to the budget issues, everyone would be taking a 2.2% pay cut. I am fortunate enough that my budget can absorb the cut, barely, but not everyone is so lucky. We pay on the bottom end of salaries for our area anyway, so this has a lot of people extremely upset. It’s been a week and a half, and everyone is still going around like they’re walking on ground up glass. Some people have jumped ship, but that’s not an option for a lot of people. So instead, everyone is irritable and overreacting to every little thing.

    Has anyone been in a similar situation? How bad of a sign is the salary cut- do I need to be looking for a new job? I love this job and this university, so I really want to stay- but right now I feel like everyone around me is losing it and it’s driving me crazy. Help!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I was in that situation once around 2008-2009. It was a temporary pay cut, and it affected only most employees (I was being paid so little, they didn’t even bother cutting mine). There wasn’t much to do. Our only choices were to try to find a new job (not in that economy) or just stick it out. Most people would rather have a job than not. That sucks, though.

    2. Artemesia*

      I worked for a small private university that had been around forever; I ignored things like that and one day woke up to a headline in the local paper that we were disappearing from the face of the earth. I had moved my husband out of a great partnership track job into a city where he had trouble breaking in and disrupted my family to take this job; the place blew up 3 years later. (it was pre-internet and I did ask the right questions, they just lied) I would be seeing the signs; all sorts of small colleges have closed in the last 40 years and more will in the future. Time to get out ahead of this and find something else if you can; at least you will be prepared to pivot before your peers if and when the hammer drops.

      1. blackcat*

        +1

        If you are at a small-ish school with a bad endowment to debt ratio, aim to get out. Be a good reference for coworkers. My guess is they are no longer communicating because they know it is bad, and it will be easier to leave now than in 2-3 years when the place actually goes belly up.

    3. Shirl*

      I can’t speak for a university environment, but I used to work for a non-profit that sprung a similar “We’re all taking a pay cut” move, and it was just the tip of the iceberg. (This was in 2008 at a regional non-profit which employed about 40 full-time and 15 part-time employees, for context.) I forget what the exact amount of the cut was, but I think it was right around 5%. This was followed by the announcement that two people who were soon to retire would not be replaced after retirement, and about three month later by lay offs of about 8 full time staff (so a total reduction of 10 full time positions). They also stopped giving raises, but I don’t know how long that lasted because I left about 6 months after lay offs – though I made the decision to leave when they cut our pay, because I was worried things would get worse. My advice is to at least be open to looking!

  60. mismatch woes*

    A very belated thanks to the people who commented about my team’s struggle to find a person with development experience last week. It’s helpful to know we aren’t the only ones with this trouble – and I’ve mentioned re-writing the description to emphasize the years of experience in the area we need them to my boss.

  61. Junior Dev*

    I talked to my boss yesterday about how people are not writing code in a standard way, are doing things that go against best practices, etc. I’m in the strange position where I know more about the web development framework than anyone else on the team even though I’ve been here the least time. Other people are carrying over bad habits from the legacy system and it shows. It’s causing real problems in that it often takes several times as long to complete a ticket than it would if people had done past work consistently. The old system is notorious for taking way too long to make simple changes or fixes and I really want to avoid recreating its problems.

    Anyone have advice or resources, reading material, etc. ? My boss said we will have a review of the project after a big deadline is met next month but it sounds like he wants to just sit down for an hour and not much longer, whereas I think we need an ongoing effort to develop and enforce coding standards. He has given me the go-ahead to start researching some automated ways to flag bad code but obviously that’s only so much help because a computer can’t tell if something is clear or concise.

    I’m worried in part because I think people are seeing this false dichotomy between doing things correctly and doing them quickly, whereas the methods I want people to use will take some initial setup and training but will save SO MUCH TIME going forward.

    1. Here we go again*

      Can you put together a formalized training for everyone? Focus on why writing good code like this is so important and pass along any advice that you may have.

      1. Junior Dev*

        My concern is that if I write up something people won’t read it, or they will skim it without understanding. I guess I could give a presentation, that might be more effective, but I worry people would see it as a waste of time. How would I sell something like this?

        1. Here we go again*

          Yeah, I meant an in-person training. I agree that just a write-up won’t work.

          I would start by getting their managers on board. Explain how the method your colleagues are quick in the short term, this comes at a cost for long term results… It’s going to take you guys longer to make changes in the future, lack of consistency leads to errors, makes it more difficult to debug, etc. Once you get them on board, they can require the team attends. I would also have a couple different sessions – this often makes people feel it is more important and they **have** to choose one.

    2. dr_silverware*

      The way I see it, you have two prongs you can’t ignore. You need people to start writing better code in the future, which means more robust code review/pull requests with actual teeth, if that’s not happening yet, and you need some time to talk to people about what better code looks like. That might be through a coursera, or through you doing some presentations. I wouldn’t recommend anything without structure.

      Then, you actually have to have time to commit to refactoring old code, and that’s really something your boss has to build into whatever timelines/release cycle you have. It’s pretty natural to look at other sections of the same codebase to find examples of whatever thing you want to do when you’re trying to fix a bug–so having refactored code is a real gift for best-practices programming in the future.

      I think strong best-practices reviews will be the easiest thing to ask for at the beginning, but you’ll probably have to do most of the work and continually fight an uphill battle to get people to revise their code.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      A situation I am in now, is not the same arena but the net result is the same. People learned their jobs years ago and they are still using the techniques they used years ago. Meanwhile the world is changing, for example we use email now and don’t use the phone as much. So now people must take classes to learn to email.
      Additionally, there is talk of adding continuing ed classes as a necessity for keeping their jobs. This sounds like where you are going in your company. People need to have a way to stay up to date. I think the task is too large for you to do yourself and I think it requires a system of training updates. If people are not writing code in up to date methods, then that could cause problems down the line, so additional training is really not optional.

  62. anon for this*

    I need help, and I thought I’d try here.

    I am tired of my job. I’ve worked here through college for the last 5 years, moving forward and advancing. Now, I’ve become an account manager. I can’t really go any higher, and I know what the pay caps are like. I work hourly at a small company, and I’m not going to earn much more than what I’m getting.

    My boss, despite all the promoting and inability to pay me more, knows I want/need to move on. She encourages it; she’s taken on a mentor role to me, and in fact was a major factor in my return and graduation from college.

    My dilemma: what do I do next? Do you have any advice? I have a political science degree (graduated in May) and I currently work at a sales/lead generation firm. I have done all types of roles here, currently, besides being an account manager, I am in charge of all associate development and hiring/scheduling, and work closely with operations. I am finding that my passion is definitely not sales, but I have loved working in operations at my company. I majored in political science because A. it was easy for me to excel and B. I’d love to work in advocacy for an association or organization I believe in (dream job would be one at Planned Parenthood, as an example). But, at this point, I’m more focused on getting out of here and into a job where I make enough money and can start my career.

    Any and all advice would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance!!!!

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      What is holding you back from looking at open positions at organizations/associations that you’ve already identified as ones you’d like to work at?

      1. anon for this*

        I do check some organizations regularly, but there aren’t a lot of jobs posted there. When they are, the salaries (if it’s posted) are typically less than what I’m earning now (which is about 32k). Many also involve a relocation to the DC area, which I cannot do on that salary. I’m not really interested in taking a paycut at this stage, as I’m underpaid for what I do now. Also, I worry I’m simply unqualified for them! I have no real “nonprofit” experience.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Gotcha. Yeah, DC on that salary would be hard (I used to live and do nonprofit work there, so I know how challenging it can be!). While those roles would be competitive, don’t discount the skills you’ve developed over the last 5 years. Just because you haven’t previously worked in a nonprofit doesn’t mean you wouldn’t have something valuable to bring to the table – especially if you’re early in your career and would be up against loads of other people still trying to figure out what they want to do and where they want to do it.

          1. Kerry*

            Thanks so much for your input! I think you’re right – I’ll be less choosy when it comes to applying to jobs than I have been based on my qualifications. I have always heard/understood that nonprofit is a tough field to break into, therefore I haven’t wanted to apply for something I may be good at, feeling as if I wouldn’t be considered.

    2. Airedale*

      I used to have the goal of working for a nonprofit, and have also worked in sales. I was a Public Relations major, though. Now I work in Higher Education (recruiting, administrative, advising) and I love it and have worked at two large universities. You could leverage your sales experience into many of those roles, I think.

    3. Silver Radicand*

      Look for HR/Management/operations jobs at non-profits then. They exist. Management and HR are their own beast and only somewhat related to what you have done, I suppose, but there are definitely jobs involved in operations at say, Planned Parenthood. Think about what parts of your job you liked the best and look for those jobs.
      Start now, because it may take a while to find a great fit. Remember that if you are starting entry level, it may not be a perfect fit, but that is fine as you will be breaking into the field.

      Best of luck!

  63. Amber Rose*

    I have a ton of work to do… and I haven’t done any of it.
    I have a nasty case of bronchitis and a persistent low grade fever, and the little bit of work I have tried has been full of errors, so I’m basically just sitting here wishing I could breathe and that pain wasn’t a thing.

    I also wish sick time was as flexible as vacation time.

  64. peanutbutter*

    I’m moderating a career panel next week for an organization. We’ll be hosting some high school students and talking with technologists. Any recommendations for good questions to ask the panel?

    1. Emi.*

      * What do you actually do all day?
      * What would I need to do in the future (major, courses, internships, skills) to get your kind of job?
      * What do you wish you’d done differently in your career?
      * What’s the best/worst thing about your field/job?

      2. HannahS*

        Practicalities, too. What kind of hours do they work? How much flexibility is there? Are there different stages to it as a career? Money can be really hard to understand in high school (as in, a teenager heard about my just-above-minimum wage job and went, “wow, that’s so much money!”), but don’t shy away from it as a topic. Mentioning salary ranges is fine, but couching it in terms that high schoolers can understand is really helpful. At what age, can most people in these positions own property and a car? How does that compare to the lifestyles of people these kids likely know, like doctors and teachers? Can they afford (both in time and money) to take a nice vacation once a year? What age do people usually retire?

    2. brainstorming*

      maybe something like “what could someone do in high school/shortly after high school to prepare for your career?”

    3. Midwest Maven*

      How has your field evolved over the last five years, what do you see changing in the next five?

    4. Gloucesterina*

      Exciting! Maybe something along the lines of:
      – What’s most surprised you about your career path and/or field? What prior assumptions (if any) about work in general or about your field specifically have you seen challenged, enriched, or changed in the course of your career?
      – Are there any parts of your general background (education, hobbies, etc.) that play into your work that people might not typically consider?
      – What kinds of advisors or mentors or experiences helped you identify what you value in a career or job?
      – If you experienced any challenges job searching, how did you cope?

  65. Cece*

    Update: as of yesterday, I have another 6 months of work (I’ve seen the paperwork and everything). It’s not full-time, but I’ve got a side gig to make up the difference. I’ve been told that my immediate management is keen to keep me on long-term, but they keep having to argue about funding.

    Thanks for the support in the open thread a couple of weeks back. It’s not the ideal result, but it’s much better than unemployment.

    (There are a couple of full-time permanent jobs going, but they’re going to be incredibly competitive and require relocation… eh.)

  66. email woes*

    This may be too technical of a question, but I need some help. My boss – director of a small non-profit – has very strong opinions. Usually, we just do what he says regardless of it being against our best judgment. I am in charge of marketing, and when I first started, I saw that they were still using an email template from 2013 that was not mobile responsive. It is standard practice to have mobile responsive emails these days. So I moved us to mobile responsive and he hated it because it didn’t look the same on his phone as it did on his computer – which is the whole point! It’s supposed to look different depending on the size of your screen so that you can read the information easily. So he made me switch back.

    Jump forward to now – I am migrating us to a new email marketing system. I want to push for a new template again. After all, the appearance and success of these emails reflect on me. I’m 5 years into my career and do not want to have bad work examples for the future. However, I know he is going to push back. What do I do? He is one of the least receptive people to input I’ve ever met in my entire life. Can I just tell him that there is no way to do it the old way in this system even though that’s not exactly true?

    1. Attractive Nuisance*

      Can you show him some examples of other organizations’ responsive emails, and stress that you run the risk of seeming technologically un-savvy if you don’t do this? If he’s still like “I don’t care, I want everything to take my personal pet peeve into account” then it’s not like you didn’t tell him.

      1. email woes*

        That’s a good idea. I also just realized by typing it out that perhaps it’s that he just didn’t like the first design I did and shot down the whole project rather than give direct feedback about what he didn’t like which is his usual way of working but now I know how to deal with that. (This happened about 2 months into my start here, and now that I’ve been here about 7 months, I have a better idea of how to work with him).

    2. T3k*

      I have a relative that worked for someone like this. She’s not an actual designer, but because of budget constraints, she was tasked with re-doing their website which gets a lot of traffic. To say the least, it looked horrible because the head honcho refused to remove a wall of text that should have been moved to another page. Unfortunately for her, he had the final say so it remained like that until he retired and was replaced with someone who agreed with the relative’s ideas to remove the wall of text.

      That said, you have the advantage of migrating over to a new system, so you could very well say that you can’t move the old template over and instead of having one idea, maybe show him several options, as most don’t like being told “we can’t do that” without at least some idea of alternatives. Of course, he may be like my relative’s last boss and still refuse to budge.

    3. AliceBD*

      I had a similar thing in my side gig! I redid a website and she wanted to keep it looking exactly the same even though the old one was bad. I kept the colors she loves (which aren’t great) and changed the header font to the font she loves but told her there was no way for the design to be exactly the same and for the rest of the font to be the same. So now the side is on a reasonable platform that doesn’t make me want to tear out my hair every time I need to make a minor update, it’s readable on your phone, and she is satisfied.

    4. OrangeYouGlad*

      I would definitely go with “we can’t do the old way in the new system so here are 6-10 different options for you to choose from!”

      Because if you need to justify it, it’s not that you technically can’t do it the old way…it’s that from a marketing perspective you can’t do it the old way. Good luck!

    5. JustaTech*

      Does he respond to data? Could you show that by *not* having a mobile-responsive email you’re losing X responses and that results in $Y less donations (or volunteers, or whatever metric you have for engagement)?

  67. Jayess*

    I’ve noticed in my extensive lurking that there is a large contingent of librarians and library workers that read AAM. Great! I just started at a large regional library system in Canada, and need to ask some advice/insight. My role is not titled “info staff,” but is effectively, “info staff.” However, the system that hired me is trying to move to a more flattened hierarchy, which is fine by me, but holy moly is not fine with the tenured staff. That’s an aside. My problem is, I’m really flipping bored. Because I’m “info,” front-desk, but not really circulation staff, I kind of feel like I just stand around twiddling my thumbs. This is anathema to me; I just came from being a supervisor at a retail store, and if *I* couldn’t find something to do there (for myself, or for staff), there truly was nothing to do there. I’m new, so I thought it was probably just that I didn’t know the system/workplace well enough yet to find jobs, but friends that have been there longer than me in the same role confirm: it’s boring.
    So, library-minded folks: how do I distinguish myself (and also save my screaming mind) by being someone who doesn’t let herself get bored at work? What sort of questions should I ask my supervisors to get projects, training, etc. sent my way? What do you wish someone would just flipping do without being asked or told? It’s a public library, if that helps.

    1. Liz*

      I cannot tell if this is actually a library role, as in a library assistant, or if it is a more admin role? At my library, library assistants staff the reference/info desk and we rotate off the desk like 2 hours on, one or two hours off the desk. We were not often given tasks during the time off the desk. I used the time to shelf read the reference books, clean the reference shelves or workroom, sort and weed newspapers, etc. Those were all areas that were part of my department. Over time I found more things that are part of our department, like pathfinders/research guides that guide patrons to books and other resources on a topic, etc. I even started writing up a training manual when I realized they did not have one. Give it time, ask what tasks they want you to do and if they can give you more, and look around for ideas. I know you said you have but maybe you have not been there long enough to see them yet.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Since it doesn’t sound like you have a background in librarianship, I would look into learning as much as you can about the field. Are there professional journals/magazines/whatever that you should be/could be reading?

      Next up, I would learn the collection. Learning what a library collection holds can take years, but spending time walking around, looking a titles, shelving, shelf reading, all of these things will help you learn what the collection contains and that helps you help your patrons.

      Lastly, I think I might ask your own supervisor, if there is a “desk” project you can take on. In my world, a desk project is any project you can do at the desk and can walk away from easily if you need to help a patron. Are there books that need labels? Weeding to be completed? Books that need to go to storage?

      I’d also give it time. I think it takes at least six months to figure out the lay of the land at a new job.

    3. Librarian of the North*

      I came to libraries after middle management retail too! First, give yourself some time to settle in. If it’s been a few weeks and you start complaining of boredom that could be off putting. However I will confirm that frontline desk work is ssssoooooooo boooorrriinnnngggg if that’s all you have the opportunity to do. What I did was really dig into the processes. I asked a lot of questions about why we do what we do the way we do and found some areas of concern. To be clear, I didn’t do this obnoxiously and it was over a period of a year. I developed a reputation for having excellent customer service and being a problem solver. Then I got promoted into programming and things were never boring lol. I guess it isn’t really revolutionary advice but put your head down and be a trustworthy worker and responsibility and the fun stuff will come to you.

      1. Jayess*

        you would not believe how intensely relieving it is just to hear that sometimes it’s boring. I’m meant to be doing programming eventually, and that was why I applied, but it’s summer, so we’re programming lite. As far as customer service goes, I think that’s why I was hired; the organization is trying to move towards customer service in a big way, and that’s definitely my wheelhouse. I think they wanted to get someone on that they didn’t have to get to “drink the kool-aid,” so to speak.

    4. Candy*

      When you say you’re front desk info staff do you mean you’re on the Info or Reference desk answering questions from patrons? In a quiet library I agree this can be boring if there isn’t anyone coming up to ask you questions, but all libraries I’ve worked in (both public and private in Canada) give us something to do while we’re on the desk, ie. there’s ALWAYS weeding to do, usually there’s a new book display to make or existing ones to fill, you could do more roving where you’re more likely to have patrons stop and ask you questions instead of sitting and waiting for them to come to you.

      Have you straight up asked what you should be doing? I’m on-call so every time I go to a new branch I do a quick rove to see what the branch is like while asking the supervisor the specifics of what they expect me to do, am I on the desk all shift or rotating? When I’m on the desk do you want me to just answer questions? Weeding? Checking the publishers’ catalogues? Updating booklists? Public libraries in Canada are unionized so it’s strange that you don’t have specific duties to do.

      Also, I would not recommend doing jobs that aren’t yours just to fill your time — ie. if it’s the shelvers’ job to shelve and shelf-read, don’t do that; if the librarians generally do the displays, don’t take that over; etc. That will just cause a lot of internal discord.

      1. Jayess*

        You’ve got it in one – Info/Reference desk, although my organization has eschewed using that terminology. I’m actually hesitant to write too much about it, as it is quite a large organization, and I am very new to it. For those above looking for clarification, I have a Library Tech diploma, and would normally be called a library technician; I am, in fact, called that in my other job for a local school district.

        I have straight-up asked what I should be doing, as well as my favourite go-to, which is to ask if it would be helpful to [insert suggestion]. I am both on-call and in a temp, so part of the problem is moving goalposts as I go from location to location, as well as knowing that I am just learning the job now.

        Upon reflection, I’ve realized I have two problems: 1. I’m used to being about 3x as active, as evidenced by my activity tracker. It’s making me feel yucky and I have to figure that one out on my own steam. Don’t worry about suggestions on that front. 2. It’s summer, and a lot of programming is on pause. My role will be including programming, but since it’s summer there’s a lot of things NOT happening, which means some of that desk work is non-existent.

        It is a massive culture change for me, and I think I’m scared that I worked my butt off to get here and am not liking it/am not a good fit. No one is more stubborn than me, so when I identified that feeling I wanted to figure out achievable tasks that would help me feel useful, busy, and like I have a future. I prefer to work hard, and I find that I’m… just not. And I mean, I prefer to work really, really hard. It’s part of my professional reputation, and also probably not super healthy for me. I’m considering being honest about feeling culture shock when I talk to my supervisor at the end of my training period; not telling her that I’m bored, but identifying that I came from a job that required me to move 3x as much, talk to customers probably 2x as much, and included massive display set up and take down. I’d let her know that I’m feeling comparatively useless, and perhaps ask if there are any projects that I can take on during the relative quiet of summer/during my weekly off-desk time.

  68. Teapot Librarian*

    I could use some help with language for a conversation I need to have with one of my employees, Fergus. I’ve mentioned him before on open threads so if you are a religious reader, you might remember him. He is a hoarder (if not clinically a Hoarder, he does hoard things) and last week expressed his disgust that I had thrown away some old newspapers from over a decade ago.
    My predecessor, who was Fergus’s best friend, taught a class at a local university. A major assignment for the class was to create a journal on the history of teapots. He and Fergus decided that these journals would be appropriate for our Teapot Library. They are not. (Among other reasons, we don’t have permission to make them public, and there are laws about student records.) I asked about these in an open thread about eight months ago and got some really good advice on what to do with them. At someone here’s suggestion, I have worked out with the university to return the projects to the university archives.
    What I *want* to do is just deliver the projects to the university without telling Fergus. He won’t miss them. But I know that’s a terrible way to manage. I’d love some help scripting out this conversation, or at least the beginning of it. He is going to push back both because he holds on to everything but also because keeping them in the first place was a decision he made with my predecessor, his best friend, who is now deceased. (His predecessor left the job and I was hired to replace him before he passed away.)
    Any help will be much appreciated!

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Is it possible to just explain that in keeping with said law, the only course of action you have in being able to preserve the projects is to return them to the university? I would hope that would mollify Fergus’s need to hold on to things to some degree but probably not enough.

    2. Drew*

      Oh, wow, this is tough. I think the best approach is to hide behind the law: “I asked about where we could keep these and was told that because they are class product, they’re technically student records and we can’t have them public. I had to return them to the university once I knew that. I’m so sorry; I know you wanted to have them here as a memento of Fritz.”

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        Thanks to you and MechanicalPencil for the suggestion to “blame” FERPA. I think that’s the approach I’ll likely take.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          I was about to suggest blaming FERPA. I’d also offer to maybe make it clear that there will be a link on your website/guide to Teapots that will direct people looking for them to the Uni Archives. Really sell the idea that this is all about patrons accessing this wonderful information that these students worked so hard on, rather than getting rid of junk.

    3. ExcitedAndTerrified*

      Ooh! I was always curious how this was going to work itself out for you. I found the link to the original comment for others: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/01/open-thread-january-6-7-2017.html#comment-1319476

      My suggestion for the conversation, is to make sure Fergus understands it isn’t one. Be crystal clear at the outset: “Fergus, I just wanted to tell you what is happening with the student collection. I’ve contacted the college, and those materials are being returned to the university archives later today.”

      Ideally, Fergus will understand from this statement that the decision has been made, all steps taken, and his input is NOT required… but rather that you’re doing him a favor by keeping him in the loop. If he starts to push back, you may find yourself in the position of needing to actually state these things to him, though.

  69. FDCA In Canada*

    I interviewed for a job about three weeks ago. Went fantastically well! Had a second phone screen with a higher-up a few days later, also went well. They called my references later that week and the week after, and I know the hiring manager immediately went on vacation and didn’t return til this Monday. I shot her a quick email Monday just touching base and hoping her vacation went well and hoping the process was going smoothly, but I didn’t hear anything back from her at all. I know she’s probably super swamped returning from vacation, and I know it’s a good sign she called references of mine even while on vacation, but I’m stressing pretty hard about not having heard back from her.

    1. Channel Z*

      It’s hard not to stress, but it doesn’t do you any good. It is out of your control now.

  70. More anonymous than usual*

    My boss’s boss asked if I’d be interested in cat sitting. I gave a non-committal answer leaning toward no. Am I the only one who thinks that’s a weird power dynamic? I mean, I’d do a good job. It’s not like I’d kill the cat, but if something did go wrong, that’d put me in an awkward position at work, right?

    1. Isben Takes Tea*

      I fully endorse your thought process. I house/cat-sat for my favorite professor right out of college and one of the (outdoor) cats got hit by a truck and died. He was soooo understanding and our relationship was fine, but it would have been so amazingly more awkward/uncomfortable if I had still been his/a student.

      1. Artemesia*

        I’d never do this as an employee and would make it clear to the grandboss that you don’t feel you can mix employment with side work for people in the organization; it is just your policy.

        I used to have grad students live in my house rent free for a semester when I traveled for months in the summer. Their main deal in addition to the house being lived in was caring for the cat. Our cat was pretty old so part of the discussion was what to do if the cat became ill and that they had permission to authorize putting her down if the vet recommended that. Luckily no one had to be in that position but I really wanted to forestall any guilt feelings if it came to pass.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          That’s what I did when I went abroad and got a pet sitter for my cat–my mum was the emergency contact and she was authorized to talk to the vet and make the decision. I put it in writing so the pet sitter knew who to call, and I also told the vet just in case.

    2. Paige Turner*

      Do you do pet sitting often/as a side job that your boss’s boss/coworkers know about, or is this just an out-of-the-blue request? Do you have cats of your own? If you’ve previously done pet sitting for coworkers, you might need to say that you considered it but would prefer to keep your two jobs separate going forward to avoid any conflict of interest or awkwardness if anything didn’t go as planned. But if it’s a random request on their part, I’d just decline without offering a big explanation (if you say you’re busy this time, that might leave the door open for boss’s boss to ask another time). I’m allergic to cats so that’s what I’d say :)

  71. snuggery*

    Hey, wondering is someone could confirm that I’m taking the correct course of action…

    My colleague sent a message to our team yesterday after work, stating that they’re coming out as genderfluid (to us only) and which pronouns they’d like us to use. Thing is, from what I know about this rather enigmatic person, it COULD be a horrendously offensive joke… Or it could be 100% serious. I don’t know enough about them and speculating whether they meant it is probably not helpful here (since none of the commenters will know any better than me).

    IF they think they’re being funny, I’d like to shout at them. But also, if they’re being serious, I’d like to make it clear that I’m 100% cool with it.

    My plan is to assume they’re being serious and refer to them with their (maybe) preferred pronouns, and if they state that “it was a joke” my plan is to lose my shit with them. Is this the way to go? Usually I like to be direct and ask, but in this case I feel that’s a poor idea. If they were serious it would probably make them uncomfortable. And we’re not terribly close.

    (Was also considering messaging them with “considering you’re not out to the rest of the company, what pronouns should I use outside of the team?” but it seems weirdly sneaky, if you know what I mean?)

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        Agreed. I think there is a way to get your point across without losing your shit.

      2. Caro in the UK*

        Yeah, no matter how egregious their behaviours (and this would be AWFUL), losing your shit will reflect badly on you too. I’d go for an icy cold demeanour that makes it perfectly clear how unamused you are, without actually losing control in any visible way.

        The fact that you think this might be a joke also gives you a chance to practice some pithy put downs for the “it was just a joke, chill bro” conversation if it does end up happening, so you’re not caught off guard and end up spluttering in rage (totally what I would end up doing).

        1. Artemesia*

          If it is a joke, it is a joke that is more than offensive, it is potentially damaging to co-workers who might have any issues around gender, or discrimination for other reasons. I would escalate this to some kind of discipline if it is a joke.

    2. Manders*

      I would take the high road and treat it as a 100% serious request.

      If they later declare that it was a joke, act puzzled and keep saying, “I don’t understand, what was supposed to be funny about it? Could you explain why you think that’s funny? I still don’t understand, what is funny about someone choosing a pronoun?” Just take the wind out of their sails by acting like an adult.

      1. AwkwardKaterpillar*

        Agreed. Take it seriously, ask about how they want to be addressed outside of the team (because that is an entirely appropriate question). If it does turn out to be some kind of prank – expressing confusion about what the joke could possibly be is appropriate.

    3. Murphy*

      I think you can be firm about how that kind of joke is in no way funny, but I’d keep your shit intact.

    4. neverjaunty*

      I would say nothing and just assume it’s true – in other words, *be* cool with it, but don’t say anything to announce how cool with it you are. If this person is genuinely coming out, then you’re just being accepting and making it not-a-big-deal, which is correct. If they think this is a funny joke, then you’re depriving them of their punchline.

    5. two cents*

      my two cents is to assume the person is being sincere. and then maybe don’t go as far as losing your shit if it was a joke, but make it clear you find it an offensive, inappropriate joke.

    6. LCL*

      Address people the way they want to be addressed. It’s fun to speculate on people’s reasons for doing things, but it shouldn’t affect how you act toward them. Don’t go any deeper than that. If they say it was just a joke, say huh, I don’t get the joke and let it go.

    7. Ramona Flowers*

      I’d take it seriously.

      Even if they then say it’s a joke, it could be that it was true and they freaked out and got cold feet. You just cannot know.

    8. snuggery*

      Thanks for the replies, y’all!

      I probably should have specified that by “lose my shit” I meant “lose my shit [within level acceptable levels for my office]”.

      But yes, stone-faced silence sounds better regardless. I’m arming myself with some good replies, as today’s developments point to “horrendously offensive joke”, sadly…

      1. Not So NewReader*

        It’s helped me a lot to use seriousness as my default. Let the person explain it was a joke. There have been too many times where I was the only serious one, everyone else was laughing and it was NOT a joke. Whoops.
        The bigger mistake is to laugh when someone was serious. It’s a lesser mistake not to laugh when someone is joking.

  72. Pepper*

    So, I posted a few weeks ago about how I’d had a meeting with my manager in which she gave me some feedback (namely, about showing up on time, being more of a team player/having a nicer tone, and productivity). I believe a good portion of the feedback about being a team player stemmed from interactions with one coworker in particular. Coworker has been here for about a year and from the start, she’s resisted following the processes our office uses. Things have been a little tense from the start, in that I (and another coworker) frequently had to chase her to get data necessary to do my job.

    Come to find out, a third coworker told me a couple days ago that Coworker does not like me. She thinks I’m “unhelpful”. And her reasoning as to why I’m not helpful is, IMO, because I don’t act like her personal assistant. She thinks that all administrative tasks are beneath her and that she should be able to foist them off on me. Well, our office does not work that way. Even though I’m an admin, I have other tasks and responsibilities on my plate in addition to supporting people so everyone has to do some administrative tasks. At least one person has explained this to her, but because it was done differently where she worked before, it falls on deaf ears.

    All this to say, my manager had said to me (before she went on vacation) that she wanted me and Coworker to sit down and discuss process together (stating that Coworker needs more training). Another coworker pointed out to me that it might be a good idea to have our manager sit in on the conversation, given the apparently tense nature of things between us (which I didn’t really register as a Problem before). I agree with this. But I’m also typing up a process document, which details all the areas where Coworker’s and my work interacts, and then lists who does what. I.e., if we’re talking about a new teapot, Coworker does x, y, z and then hands it off to me to do a, b, c. I want to show this document to my manager before the meeting for a couple reasons: a) I want her to know I’m taking this seriously, and b) I want Coworker to know once and for all where things stand, and having my manager’s approval on that would help, I think.

    Does anyone else have any suggestions on ways to handle this? I’m going to try to limit my interactions with Coworker in person and stick to emails which I can cc our manager on, as I’ve been having difficulties with getting Coworker to answer my emails and/or respond to (time sensitive!) requests in a timely matter. Now that I’ve had some distance and time to put my thoughts together, I also want to tell my manager that when I show her the process document, like, “I want you to know I’m taking the feedback you gave me seriously. That day, you asked if I had any concerns and I said no. But now I realize that I have been having a few problems with Coworker. She does not answer my emails when it’s time sensitive (example) or update our tables (example).”

    But does anyone else have any suggestions for things I could/should be doing?

      1. Pepper*

        It was part of a larger, overall conversation about the coworker I’m having problems with (Third Coworker is also having a lot of problems with her). While it could be construed as (cruel) gossip, I’m actually grateful for the heads up as I had no idea Coworker disliked me/was tarnishing my reputation with our manager. I feel like now I can be a little more pro-active in how the situation is handled.

    2. Toph*

      Sounds like you have a pretty good handle on it to me. Meeting to discuss Official Process, with Documentation of Process signed onto by Manager is a really good way to go. If Manager is asking you to train the person on Process it adds weight to the notion that whatever she’s irked with you about your not doing is in fact her minunderstanding of protocol and no fault of your own. If your manager already agreed to be in the meeting, great, because they can overrule resistance. However if they’ve not already agreed to be present, if you’re approaching the meeting from the standpoint of “Manager asked me to meet with you to go over this because you’ve not been following protocol and it’s important that you do so” blah blah blah otherwise implication of “not only do you need to start doing it right, but Boss sent me here to tell you that” and having that weight on it will either: get the point across OR get the person tagged insubordinate. So you’re just making absolutely clear that this Process is not optional and it’s coming not from you personally, but from above that she’s got to get with it.

  73. Shellesbelles*

    So, a really odd thing happened last week. My coworker redid a bunch of my designs on the weekend without consulting anyone. She used my already designed images (jpegs) as a base and then added stuff to them/altered them. Then she sent them in as alternates/for feedback from our managers on the weekend. They ended up going with my designs for all but one image and they haven’t reprimanded her for this behaviour! She’s not the one responsible for the design, so what gives? How could this possibly be appropriate behaviour? I really don’t want to have anything to do with the design if it means I have to audition my work every time. Any advice on how to deal with this when it comes up again?

    Background: she has a history of sending bullying or passive aggressive emails, often using technical language to try to show up others or intimidate them. However, she’s often pulling out dated, irrelevant, or just plain wrong information when she does this. She’s pretty consistently negative about my design work, but everyone else seems to really like what I do. I would say that her skills and style are both dated.

    1. AnonGraphicDesigner*

      Is it possible that your managers didn’t realize that she had used your work, or that they might have thought you collaborated together? It strikes me as odd that you were completely blindsided by this and that they seem to be ignoring this. I would definitely talk to the appropriate manager about it, maybe phrase it as “I didn’t realize that Jane was also assigned to work on ‘x’ project, that came as a surprise to me and was upsetting because I thought I was the only designer working on ‘x’, can we have more clarity about who has been assigned to what projects in the future?”

      At least I’m assuming that going to your coworker and professionally approaching her first would do no good!

      1. Shellesbelles*

        Yeah, I think I will bring it up with my manager. Thanks so much for the script! We’re a tiny company, so the design team consists of me and any contractors we bring in. Design isn’t part of her job at all. It felt like a bit of a power grab/passive-aggressive move on her part, especially as she did it over a weekend when I wouldn’t be on email.

        1. AnonGraphicDesigner*

          Definitely sounds fishy– if I had to guess the managers are somehow out of the loop– I think phrasing it as “didn’t realize you gave her that work” will prompt “No we didn’t!” and then you can hopefully address the issue from there without having come to them in an accusatory fashion. I’ve worked as a designer in a small company before and dealt with a person that felt they were an aspiring designer– I did end up having to have a talk with my manager about it which helped a lot because she was completely unaware of how I felt.

  74. AnonCanFed*

    Since we had a Canadian federal compensation advisor in the letters this week, I thought I would ask if there are any more out there?

    I work in the Canadian federal government, and I am stuck in the Phoenix fiasco (same as everyone else, it seems). Are there any HR compensation advisors who have any insight or perspectives on this ongoing issue, that they can share? Or, any tips and tricks?

    1. Canadian fed*

      Not a compensation advisor, but here’s my take (based on info from a variety of sources both internal and external). I suspect it will take at least another year to fully fix. There’s too big a backlog with too many complexities for it to be otherwise. I understand they’re prioritizing transactions that involve paying money to employees over things like transferring pay files between departments.

      That said, I’ve seen encouraging signs. I got acting pay during the same pay period I worked it recently (that *never* happens). So there’s progress.

      For pay issues, I’d suggest using the Phoenix Feedback Form (google it, it’s available online). My understanding is that the Phoenix call centre people don’t have access to the system, so skip them and go straight to the written form. Keep written records of each time you contact the pay centre.

      Your department may also have an escalation process. At mine, we have a dedicated email address to send issues (and it seems to work for some of the issues!). Finally, your union can probably also provide some advice and help. I believe all the unions have been pushing pretty hard on this issue, so don’t hesitate to raise it with them.

      Good luck. It really sucks, but I do see signs of improvement.

      1. Observer*

        Are you serious about the call center people not having access to the system? The whole thing is a mess, riddled with bad decisions. But at this point, you would have thought that they had figured SOME things out. I guess not, but I feel really bad for the people working there – unable to do much of anything useful but probably catching a LOT of flack from legitimately upset people.

        1. AnonCanFed*

          Every time I talk to the pay centre, you can tell they’re trying to stay calm; lots of apologies, with a tone of “well, you know how it is, but we’re still sorry”. They just take the info, and tell me they’ll create a ticket number, and that I can call back and use that ticket number to get status updates.

          I’ve only had one experience where the person sent me on a wild goose chase, which ended with me calling them back and having the next person say “I don’t know why they sent you over there, that’s not the right thing to do”.

      2. AnonCanFed*

        Thanks for all this info – I’m glad to hear that there is progress! I’ll check out the Phoenix Feedback Form, and see about my union.

        I’ve tried talking with my department’s Phoenix Response Team; after writing to them 4 times, I finally heard back from them, just for them to tell me that they have 2600 employees to deal with, and that since I was getting a paycheque (even though it’s the wrong amount, and my acting pay since May 2016 hasn’t been entered in), my case isn’t a priority and they’ll get to me when they can.

        Thanks!

  75. Dear Theodosia*

    Is there any good way to respond when your husband’s boss FB messages you about his work? The boss is an acquaintance of mine, we play on the same sports team. I introduced Husband and Boss at a party because I knew they had similar interests and worked in the same field. It turned out that Boss’ company was hiring, Husband was looking for a new job, and it fell into place.

    At first the FB messages were things like pictures of Husband at company outings or in his lab gear. I would respond with stuff like “Cute!” or “Thanks for sharing” because I didn’t mind. But now his boss will message me at 8 pm asking why Husband isn’t responding to his emails or texts. I get these sorts of messages 2-3x a week. I usually ignore them and then the next morning respond with “Sorry, just saw this” but I can’t keep that up forever. Husband has told Boss that the best way to contact him is directly but then Boss says he never answers so he’s gonna keep trying to get in touch with him.

    Any suggestions for shutting this down?

    1. neverjaunty*

      Is Husband supposed to be answering Boss’s texts (because they’re work-related), or are these just social texts?

      If the latter, then Husband needs to be more direct instead of hinting with ‘the best way to contact me is directly’. He should politely explain to Boss that if Boss needs him to be more responsive (to work things! not FB posts!) then of course he’ll do that, but you aren’t an employee and you’re not comfortable relaying messages or being bothered to get Husband to respond.

      1. Dear Theodosia*

        They are work related texts. My husband does not respond to them because he is an hourly employee and has capped hours, so if he responds to these texts he’ll be going over his approved hours. And also because he doesn’t want to deal with work stuff after hours.

        1. neverjaunty*

          Oh wow, Boss is completely out of line, then. Husband needs to be clear that you can’t respond for him because he’s exceed his approved hours.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I would be direct next time you get these messages, “Sorry Fergus. you’ll have to talk directly to Husband relating to work matters.” And then see if you can set FB up so that Fergus is no longer able to message you.

      1. Dear Theodosia*

        Thanks for the script advice. Though I need for Fergus/Boss to be able to FB message me about sport related things. That’s mainly how the sports team communicates.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Ah, gotcha. In that case, I’d send the script above and feel free to ignore any non sports team-related messages in the future.

    3. Snark*

      Oh, this is a whole bunch of hell no. I’d send a message like, “I’m really uncomfortable with you treating me as an intermediary between you and Husband. Please stop sending me these messages.” And I think you’re on solid ground ignoring all future messages from him.

    4. Natalie*

      Oof.

      Exactly how you proceed probably depends on how reasonable the boss is , your own comfort with being direct, husband’s comfort with being direct, etc. The direct option would be something like “Boss, I’m not comfortable passing work messages on for you, so I’m going to ignore these from now on.” Even if he accepts this, he won’t stop right away. So it’s super annoying, but you’ll need to ignore the message for ever. No “I’m sorry” response, no telling your husband about the messages, nothing. Delete them and move on. If you absolutely must, block him on Facebook.

      If the boss is a semi-reasonable person, he’ll eventually stop because he’s not getting any kind of response/action from this. If he’s unreasonable… well, you have bigger problems.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      It sounds like Husband is sending mixed messages – he tells Boss to contact him directly, but then he apparently doesn’t respond to those contacts because it would put him on the clock. He needs to tell Boss that he’s just not available to answer messages, unless they want to increase the number of hours he can work.

      1. Artemesia*

        This. A couple of ‘you need to deal with husband directly; I am not his secretary’ messages and then ignore the rest. But your husband needs to respond and clarify; he is sending competing messages. He needs to say ‘If I respond to emails after hours, they need to be on the clock and I am capped. How do you want me to handle this? Do you want me to be putting in for overtime or wait until I am on duty?’

        1. Bostonian*

          Yeah, Boss is out of line and it’s really Husband’s responsibility to shut this down. I would just ignore any work-related messages from Husband’s Boss in the future.

    6. Liz*

      As you and the others said, he would have to be paid if he answers wotk related stuff. There is a script somewhere in AAM for this. Something like: Fergus, I know you have been trying to reach me outside work hours, how do you want me to record those hours so we don’t fall afoul of the overtime laws on this?

  76. Mallory Janis Ian*

    Yesterday’s post about checking references (or references not being available) reminded me of something I’ve been wondering about with a hire that I made that hasn’t turned out well, and whether I could have avoided it.

    This concerns my direct report, who is an ass. He interviewed very well and the whole committee was impressed with his responses to our questions; he was personable and seemed to have an understanding of customer service and respect for faculty and students in an academic setting. This was for an admin/receptionist position in a higher ed department.

    He is in his mid-twenties and had been working in our university bookstore while completing a masters degree. His reference from the bookstore was very good. His other references were a professor from a student group that he’d led in college and a supervisor from a Verizon call center. I took the professor’s glowing reference with a grain of salt, because students can be different in a social/academic club setting than they are in a real job. She did say that he had tended to wear his heart on his sleeve and that he’d had to learn not to do that, but I thought that was probably pretty typical of students in a club that they care deeply about; lots of young people have to learn how to separate their personal sense of being from their work product.

    I was really interested to speak to his boss at Verizon, but when I called there they said that it is policy not to give references for anybody other than employment dates. I asked if he was eligible for rehire, and they restated that it is their policy not to give references other than employment dates. So, knowing what I do now, this seems like it could have been a red flag to me? But at the time, I just thought, “Oh, giant corporation, bureaucratic rules . . .” and didn’t think too much more of it.

    He has turned out to be such an ass! He has emotional meltdowns in the face of any kind of ambiguity. He makes disrespectful remarks to faculty and other staff. I have coached him on his tone when dealing with people; I’ve called him out in the moment and had multiple private conversations with him. When called out in the moment, he would lash out and then emotionally shut down for the rest of the day. After a private conversation, he would improve for about two (or a maximum of three) weeks and then go back to his old ways. I finally had the department head speak to him as a last attempt to line him out before putting him on probation.

    He behaved himself for about three weeks and then escalated his bad behavior again (emotional meltdowns, insulting comments to and about faculty and other staff, etc.). So finally I put him on probation, and he successfully completed it. He was mostly pleasant, and the few things that he did were kind of odd in a low-key way but didn’t rise to the level of failing probation. Since he has completed probation, it has been the same: he occasionally does things that are odd and off-putting, but don’t rise to the level of putting him back on probation.

    I keep asking myself if there was something in his references that I should have paid more attention to. In retrospect, the professor telling me that he wore his heart on his sleeve was woefully understated and boy, did she put a positive spin on it. How about, “he sinks into the depths of despair at the slightest ambiguity and then lashes out angrily at other people because he can only handle things that are spelled out for him in black and white”.

    1. Liz*

      I am thinking that asking for other references like from coworkers might have helped. When all you can get from Verizon is “we only give dates,” that might be the time to ask the manager or the applicant for other people you can talk to?

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      If you call HR at a company and they say they will only verify hire dates and job title, that’s not necessarily a red flag, just a sign that you need to talk to someone else.

      If it was *his former boss* who said that, I would indeed take that as a red flag. Most managers are willing to gush about good employees even if there’s an official policy at their company to verify dates/title only. The only time I have ever said that to a reference checker was about someone I had fired in large part due to his belligerent attitude, and I said it because I was afraid he would sue me if he found out I was saying anything negative about him. (He also obviously knew I wouldn’t give him a good reference, because the reference checker said that he had been very reluctant to provide my name but they’d insisted on it. They pressed me to say more but I wouldn’t do it, and I’m not sure what they did with what was, IMO, a very telling piece of information.)

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        Yeah, it was his former boss who said that, and I didn’t know if it was a red flag or if he really was prohibited from giving a reference. It clearly seems like a red flag in retrospect, but at the time it was more like a possibly-yellow flag to me. Now I know. bleh

    3. Tuesday*

      My former employer had a no references policy, too, although I think people did get around it by giving their non-work contact info. So, if you’d called the company, they only would have given you work dates, but if I’d given you my manager’s info, she would give you a detailed reference. Although technically we weren’t supposed to do that, either.

      I think Liz is right. When you couldn’t get a reference from that company, asking for another reference contact from him probably would have been the way to go.

    4. Artemesia*

      I think that is a cue to probe further. When someone says ‘well she can be quite direct’ that is also a cue to probe further to discover that ‘yes, she has burned bridges with every department we interact with because she is an abrasive ass’. Wish I had done that. When someone volunteers something slightly negative, that is the clue to get that amplified. (high moral standards for example turns out to mean ‘judgmental prig’ who will be a pain to all.)

      1. Mallory Janis Ian*

        So when I find myself brushing something off (“oh, most young people have to learn to moderate their emotions regarding work”; “well, I guess some big corporations are officious sticklers about their reference rules”), that impulse is my signal to look closer.

        I may soon have the opportunity to put this new knowledge to use. My direct report is a finalist for another position at the university; he’s had a phone screen, a panel interview, and an interview with the dean team for an admin position one level above his current position (admin III vs admin II). I’m surprised that they haven’t called me for a reference yet, although they may do so only if they’re preparing to make an offer. BUT the reason I’m surprised is that the position he’s applying for is with the academic unit that I worked in for eight years, and I still have monthly after-work dinners with two of the people who are on his search committee. They haven’t heard me complain about him because I don’t bring my work gossip to dinner; we use the work gossip from their side instead. :-) I’m still not sure what-all I’ll say to them about him if they call me as a reference. I’m pretty sure I owe it to them to at least briefly outline the nature of the problems I’ve had with him. I’m not willing to stake my reputation on him.

  77. Dr. Doll*

    FMLA question: I have someone on intermittent FMLA. I have been asked to specify in my attendance reporting when leave is FMLA. But this person does not tell me if it should be considered FMLA when they are out sick (I have asked directly, it happens once or twice, then we go back to “Im sick wont be in” texts). Is it *within the rules* to assume that if they are out sick, it should be designated FMLA? Instead of me having to text back “FMLA?”

    [I’m trying to make my life easier here, so I don’t need advice about holding the person accountable to doing the very simple thing I’ve asked for.]

    1. Murphy*

      I would tell them that you’re going to assume all sick absences are FMLA unless you’re told otherwise. Document it accordingly if they or anyone else comes back to you about it.

      1. Murphy*

        *”Document it accordingly so you have it if they or anyone else comes back to you about it.” is what I meant to say.

    2. LCL*

      Gotta ask them each time. FMLA is limited to a hard number. If you don’t ask and they run out you both will have more problems.

  78. ruff orpington*

    Advice on social media etiquette?

    I just left a great job to go to grad school (PhD). The people I worked with were supportive and wonderful, and I became very friendly with them (all within a work context). Would it be appropriate to add them on social media (facebook) now that I’ve left? I’d love to stay in contact with them (many have mentioned stopping by/staying with me in my new city)

      1. An Inspector of Gadgets*

        This will also make it easier to stay in touch with them if you need references in the future.

        1. ruff orpington*

          I guess that this is the only reason why I’m hesitant to ‘friend’ them now– I’m likely going to need another few letters or reference from my previous supervisor for fellowships ( he’s the person that I’m most likely to maintain a friendship), and I feel weird breaking into just plain old regular friendship while those still need to be done.

          But realistically, it’s really not that big of a deal.

    2. Tuesday*

      I say do it. Everyone uses social media a bit differently, but I use Facebook to keep an easy line of contact open with friends and acquaintances. I don’t friend current coworkers on Facebook, but after I left my last job I added the colleagues I worked most closely with.

      They may not all accept your friend request since some people really do keep their network restricted to close friends and family, but there’s certainly nothing wrong with sending the request.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, this is exactly what I do… not with grad school but with work. I usually don’t friend co-workers while I’m working there (I like to have a good separation of “church” and “state”), but once I leave, I’m friending left and right to stay in touch.

    4. Hiring Mgr*

      Absolutely…hundreds of thousands of people are freinds on FB with their CURRENT colleages let alone past ones..

  79. Liz*

    I could use advice please. From reading AAM I can see that my supervisor sucks and is not going to change. I have decided that since she is not preventing me from doing my job (maybe from doing new and interesting projects but not from doing my job) there is no real cause to go to her supervisor. And I have decided that I am going to stick to this job (though I do read the area job postings just in case). I am learning not to take things personally or to let the day to day stress me out, but it is not always easy. Does anyone have advice about how to let things roll off my back better?

    2. Hiring Mgr*

      I don’t have advice on how to let things roll better, but if you’re that stressed and unhappy just curious why you’re so determined to stick it out?

      1. Liz*

        For me I am sticking it out bc I think managers could be like this elsewhere, she is not preventing me from doing my job, I just don’t like how she does things, I can bike to work, I am paid a few more dollars per hour than similar jobs that are a 40+ minute commute in traffic, they are going to cover tuition for me starting next year, etc. But I do read the want ads and am working on my resume and wording for cover letters based on this site. So I am open to something else, I just have not found it. And I think I need to learn how to put up with or learn not to feel I am putting up with stuff.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I hear you – especially on the tuition reimbursement – but I would try not to make ‘managers could be the same elsewhere’ one of your reasons. That will warp your thinking in the long run.

    3. tw*

      This might not be what you’re looking for, but I find that having my own mini projects outside of work (learning to cook, volunteering, etc) helps keep perspective that work is just one part of my life
      More in this article: http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/a-better-kind-of-happiness
      “One of his consistent findings is that, in order to bring us happiness, a project must have two qualities: it must be meaningful in some way, and we must have efficacy over it. (That is, there’s little use trying to be the fastest human in the world if you’re an overweight, agoraphobic retiree.) “

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      I’ve seen a great tip from other AAMers – can’t take credit for it- about pretending they’re a weird bitey animal and narrating to yourself, nature documentary style.

      Also, have pitying thoughts. How sad and pathetic to be a person who does things like ___. I’m so glad I don’t say things like ___.

    5. Situational anon*

      I have a situation in my job that’s not exactly the same, but has some parallels, so I’ll tell you how I’m handling it. I basically have three main groups that I work with – the team that I manage, my peer group (other managers who oversee similar groups in other areas of the business), and the greater organization as a whole. Within my team, I’m given a great deal of latitude so I’m embracing that freedom to work with the team on some innovative programs and initiatives. Our organization is working hard on improving it’s culture, and through a variety of activities I’m able to be involved in a positive way and am taking advantage of these opportunities. With my peer group, there’s a pretty hierarchical pecking order and for a variety of reasons mostly out of my control I have relatively small influence in this group and am careful about how much I try to do in order to not ruffle feathers or rock the boat.

      With the peer group, it has been very stressful at times dealing with the particular culture and frustrating to not be able to work and interact within this team as I’d like, but I’ve recently changed my focus to the two areas where I do have a lot of freedom and ability to work together on great things. Letting go, for the most part anyway, of focusing on the limitations I have in the peer group has been very freeing and has reduced my stress level notably. I can’t change it now, it will change over time through future staffing changes, and stopping trying to swim upstream has been one of the best things I could do for myself right now.

  80. Jennifer*

    I’m not at work today–I’m leaving to go to a festival soon–but I just wanted to post a brief rant about how I am so sick of hearing about how my customer service sucks and it’s obvious that I’m stressed out when people are asking me questions every 15 seconds for hours at a time. Which is still happening (it’s the season, this isn’t an all year thing but summer here is hell and I am unfortunately the public gatekeeper for an in demand thing) even though I am not officially on the public service team any more. At least they’re asking me things I know, so there’s that, and nobody’s reported on me in a few months so yay there, but I am feeling really, really overloaded and overwhelmed with needy humans demanding things out of me immediately that I can’t give. I just wish I could say STOP, I CAN’T TAKE ANY MORE, YOU CAN’T ASK ME ANYTHING ELSE TODAY I NEED TO BREATHE, but of course I can’t do that when I have hit my limit of needy humans by 2:15 p.m. and they are still calling me from the Far East to want to know where their mail is. I have no control over the mail, hell if I know.

    YOU KNOW WHAT? I did not get originally hired to do customer service here. My options for this that you gave me were to do it or get laid off. I have taken every single class this place offers in customer service and human interaction, both in person and online. I go to therapy. I paid a thousand bucks to go to a vocal coach because half the world hates my voice. YOU KNOW WHAT? NONE OF THIS HAS APPARENTLY MADE ME ANY BETTER AT HANDLING IT IN THE WAY YOU WANT. At some point, can’t someone just go, “Okay, fine, she’s not the world’s best, but we know she is constantly trying and it’s still not going to be 100% pleasing to me no matter what she tries, so we’re just going to deal with it and stop nagging her any more?” I’m just sick of hearing about it. I just cannot do what they want no matter what. It’s like they’re asking me to be six foot two and I’m wearing 4 inch heels every day and walking on stilts and they’re complaining that I still trip and fall down.

    Yesterday’s letter about the girl who doesn’t want to do customer service/heavy people interaction jobs was right on the money. Don’t do it unless you absolutely have to. Unfortunately there’s not a lot out there where you can avoid people

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect that your company will be okay with you not being able to do the job they asked you to do at the standard they want — *even if it’s not the job you signed up for*. They have the right to change the terms.

      You, on the other hand, have the right to look for something that is more like what you wanted in the first place. In your shoes I’d be job hunting.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Counterpoint: I don’t think it’s fair for a company to dramatically change the terms of a job and expect the person to still excel. If I interview and say I’m good at X and Y and weak with Z, and then suddenly they land Z on me and I struggle, then it’s really on the company to have picked a better person if it’s that important. I think it’s reasonable to expect a company to understand that not everybody is good at every task.

        Job hunting can take a very long time, and if every company just randomly changes the terms on you because it’s reasonable to do so, how are you ever supposed to get a decent job?

        1. Natalie*

          Fairness aside, it’s just idiotic. It’s exceedingly unlikely that your repair technician has any sales skills, or that your accountant will be a competent receptionist.

          1. AdAgencyChick*

            True, just because they CAN do it doesn’t mean it’s smart.

            Depending on Jennifer’s relationship to her boss, she might be able to have a conversation about how the job has changed significantly from how it was when she was hired, and she wants to get back to a role more like the one she was hired for.

            Whether I would do this depends on how likely I thought it would be that the boss would try to help me remake the role (or find a different role in the company that’s a better fit), or if I thought the boss would use this information to try and push me out of the organization before I’m ready.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Boy, I hope you can get the heck out of there SOON.
      Come back and let us know how you are doing with planning your escape from this prison.

  81. Tuesday*

    How did you find and land your current/most recent job?

    I often joke that applying through the online forms that most companies seem to be using is like throwing your resume into a black hole. They rarely seem to result in anything more than an auto-generated confirmation email at best.

    When I got my last job about a decade ago, I’d sent a resume and cover letter to the HR department in the mail (printed on expensive resume paper, natch.) For the job before that, I got into it through a temp agency and was then hired as a regular employee. The job before that, which started out as my college summer job, was one I found because I knew someone who knew someone.

    I’ve been job hunting for almost a year now and I’m starting to feel like most of the applications I send are a total waste of time. I know that’s (probably) not true, but when the process is so impersonal and there’s so little feedback, it feels like I might as well be printing off my resume and running it immediately through the shredder.

    I’m hoping for lots of stories about how people landed great jobs at companies where they had no personal connection just by applying through the online system so that I can have some faith that the system does work.

    1. Murphy*

      I felt the same way when I was job searching last. Definitely felt like I was throwing my resume into the wind.

      I found my current job on Indeed and applied online with no personal connection. I’ve been here 2 years.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Hi, that’s me. I just sent an online application into the void and got called in for an interview. But, for every interview request I got, there were probably nearly 2 dozen ignored applications.

    3. Kim Possible*

      I found my current job on Indeed.com.

      I applied on a Thursday, was contacted for an interview the following Tuesday, and landed the job the very next day – it was a quick turnaround to say the least! I think I had a couple advantages on other candidates that made their decision to hire me so quickly a bit easier:

      -I went to college in the city where the company’s corporate office is (and it’s very well known/well respected in that city), so I already knew a lot about the company that others may not have known
      -I was interviewing for primarily a customer service role, but previously worked in accounting (and have a bachelor’s degree in accounting). Turns out, they were looking for a customer service rep who could also handle some AP/AR work (which made it easier to negotiate the salary!)

    4. Snark*

      So my parents’ old friends, who they knew from when they both worked in the furniture industry, ran into my current grand-grandboss at Wal-Mart and mentioned that their friend’s son is an ecologist and looking for a job. Then I sent them a resume, and then nothing for three weeks, and then a very friendly conversation with my old boss Jim that I didn’t realize was an interview until like 20 minutes in, and then a job offer.

    5. CatCat*

      I got my current job by applying through the org’s online system (I found out the org was hiring by seeing and ad on craigslist, which is used a lot more in org HQ’s geographic area than in mine). Got called for a first interview. Then a second interview. And then got hired. Been here 11 months and overall, it’s been a really good fit :-)

    6. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Found: Through the local industry job posting board (there’s a clear “this is where these jobs are always posted” board for my field in my region).

      Landed: I applied through the online system, but had also met the hiring manager (once) in an information session about a program that he ran. I sent an email to him with my application materials and a quick note. I had enough context (about the culture of my field and the specific organization, which is large and well known in my region) to know that sending the note wouldn’t be perceived negatively, but I didn’t have any actual connection to the hiring manager or the organization.

      This has been true for all of my jobs, actually. My three other significant professional roles have all come from finding the opening on a job board and submitting a resume into the “black hole” (which, until this job, has always been an email address rather than an applicant tracking system).

    7. ThatGirl*

      I recently got two offers and I got one through sheer luck and an Indeed application – although I was a near-perfect fit for their requirements and wants. The other one came through a combination of networking (someone made sure my resume got seen, he didn’t formally recommend me, though) and applying online with a great cover letter.

      LinkedIn can be really helpful too, I got a few interviews that way.

    8. Susan*

      I got my current job by applying through the company’s online system. I felt a lot like you during my first real job search — as though my applications were just getting sent straight to the trash — but I had a much better response rate the next time around because my job search was much more targeted and I was only applying for positions for which I had directly relevant experience. I know it’s frustrating, but keep trying!

    9. Sled Dog Mama*

      Found out about my current position through an industry list serv. Applied through the corporate portal and got a call a few days later to interview the next week.

      Previous job, I had been interning for company A and they created a position for me, company A was acquired by company B (became a division of company B) and my position was eliminated but there was an open position in another division that I was actually much better suited for and was asked to transfer to that division.

    10. KR*

      I was unemployed in a rural area in Southern California (so still a high COL) for 3 months after moving. My husband has a job but we are in a bit of debt and weren’t able to make any real progress on our debt or savings with just his paycheck and had no wiggle room for vet visits, vehicle repairs, ect. So the pressure was on. I had a lot of customer service experience and I couldn’t get any retail or fast food places to even call me back. When I applied for my position I was on the verge of giving into an hour plus commute one way for jobs in the closest city when I saw my job listed as a temporary office job. It’s so much more than that. I’m so glad I found it. I got hired within a week.

    11. H.C.*

      Same here, my current job (local gov’t) was a standard application I submitted online, w no personal connections. However, it did take me 3 tries with 3 departments; thankfully the application system did save my information so I don’t need to resubmit and it also alerted me whenever a position similar to what I initially applied for opened up & ask if I’d like to throw my hat in that ring too.

    12. Anonymous Educator*

      I used to look on Craigslist, and I do occasionally peak at various job boards now just to see what’s out there. But I’ve found the most success going to the actual employment pages of the places I’d like to work and seeing what they have. That’s how I got my current position.

    13. Ramona Flowers*

      I landed a job with no personal connection by applying through an online form. For a charity I had always wanted to work for. Personal connections wouldn’t have helped as we have a blind recruitment system – hiring panels do not get people’s names until after they confirm attendance at interview and it is categorically not possible to refer someone.

    14. LadyKelvin*

      I applied to close to 100 jobs with no connections in a field where connections are the way you get jobs. I eventually got 4 interviews and one job offer. So its possible, but it might take you applying to a lot more jobs than you think.

    15. Alex*

      I found a listing on my organizations website and applied with no connections or insider information. The process took a lot longer than I would have liked, but it worked out in the end. At my previous job, I was an intern there before I got hired for a full time position.

    16. potatoes*

      I applied to my current job by sending my resume/CV to HR (which was what was instructed) and didn’t know anyone at the company. I’d also gotten several interviews applying through online systems for giant companies, without any personal connections to them, so there’s hope!

    17. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I got my current job through applying on Indeed. I’ve been here for about 9 months. The only times I’ve been offered interviews after applying online (and not having any connections at the company I was applying to) was through Indeed and Craigslist. But those Craigslist jobs were…not good. They were legitimate companies, but it was very clear only a few minutes into those interviews why they didn’t list the company name in the posting. Holy dysfunction, Batman!

    18. MissDisplaced*

      I found my current job via LinkedIn 3+ years ago.
      I found all but 1 of my former 6 jobs in the last 15 years by the big job boards (Indeed, CareerBuilder, Monster, HigherEdJobs, Craigslist, etc.) and didn’t know anyone or have any connections to the companies! The one where I didn’t was through a friend who was working part time at the company and recommended me. These have been both big giant companies and small startups.

      So, no, you’re not throwing your resume into a black hole, but it may also depend a lot on your industry and your location. In bigger cities the job boards rule.
      I can say that if you use the job board/application process to make sure your resume and cover letter match words in their job description. Last week I applied for 12 jobs on Sunday on Indeed and got 5 callbacks. So they CAN work!

    19. Detective Amy Santiago*

      My current job found me! I had posted my resume on Monster and Careerbuilder. My boss did a search and my resume popped up as someone with the skills/experience she was looking for. When she realized I lived two miles from the office, she immediately called me.

      I wasn’t initially super excited about the job and had a second interview for a position that I was more excited about the day after my first meeting with her, but the 2nd interview left me feeling kind of meh about that position and I decided to give boss a shot. I’ve been there for a year now.

    20. Not So NewReader*

      A group I belong to (vague- sorry) just hired a person from a job posting on a professional site. Person lived 8 hours away from here. They rocked the interview and got the job.

    21. MissGirl*

      Applied on LinkedIn with no connections. Got a call back within two weeks and accepted the offer within four weeks.. Three separate companies reached out to me from online applications during my search.

    22. This Daydreamer*

      I got mine by volunteering for the organization that hired me. When I started as a volunteer, I was a complete stranger with no link to the shelter and I doubt very much that I would have gotten the job without that start; not only would I not have gotten the job, I would have never believed I could do it.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I found out about my present position at a national conference catching up with colleague from this city. At the time I had no interest in a new job, didn’t think I had the qualifications for the position, and was not interested in relocating from major east coast city to small city midwest. That said, applied anyway.

  82. ThatLibraryChick*

    We have a couple of substitute workers that fill in whenever we are super busy or someone calls out, on vacation, etc. Because most subs are here not on a regular basis they aren’t always aware of what we’ve been doing lately or if policy has changed. Some of them however are here on a regular basis, 2-3 times a week. I know that whenever I’m in charge I do fill in the sub with everything that’s been going on and that’s perfectly fine. My problem is that, I still think some of the subs aren’t doing things correctly and since they move around different branches, they don’t have a boss and no one is in charge of them and they don’t get evaluated. They don’t even really get fired, they just stop getting calls to come in. I’ve noticed one sub who despite being here on a regular basis (at least 2x a week), frequently forgets basic tasks that we do on a normal basis even though it is something they do every week when they are here. I don’t mind explaining new things or giving refresher courses if you haven’t been to our branch in a while, but lately I’ve been noticing that this sub needs a refresher course for many things every time they come here. I’ve brought this up several times with our boss because it takes up our time to keep re-explaining/reteaching but nothing gets done and they keep calling the same sub to come. In fact they are scheduled to be here every week for the rest of the year. Then again, my boss is never here when this sub is here so they’ve never experienced this first hand. I don’t know what I’m supposed to do. Give up and accept this is what it is?

    1. Sled Dog Mama*

      As someone who started out their career doing vacation coverage for 17 people across 6 locations with 5 sets of policies and procedures, some people are just really bad at keeping these things straight, I was. The one thing that helped me was having notebook with all the sites in it and a list of important stuff for each site and a do each time you are at this site list.
      Maybe your organization could develop an electronic notebook for the subs so that at all sites the procedure is check the notebook for that site.

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        At my job, doctors have to access a ton of outside networks to read studies. Their passwords change ALL the time and the directions to sign in/sign off on a study are vastly different from hospital to hospital I set up a OneNote document for them that has sections for each hospital. That way, anyone who has editing rights can change it, others can be set to read-only if need be, we can see who made what changes, and it can be accessed anywhere — online or through an app. I know it’s been helpful. It’s definitely an option.

    2. Liz*

      At our library we have work instructions/directions that have long versions (100 pages) and Quick Guide versions with the basic, everyday tasks we do. We all refer to these from time to time. I think something like that at each branch would help.

      We also don’t use subs, we have part time employees who move between branches. I think that helps.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I did subbing for exactly three months early in my library job, before I quit out of frustration. Being a sub is really really tough, because you go to multiple library branches and half the time, those branches all have different rules and different unspoken rules.

      If there is no manual or other documentation, and they are only working on day a week, chances are that they may simply not remember what you told them. I won’t schedule my own student assistants for only one shift a week, because I know they won’t get trained that way. So, I would start by seeing what can you do to try to support this person in their need for further guidance. Can you make a manual? Are there clear policies?

      Also, have you spoken to them directly? The library I worked out was notorious for sending out vague general emails. They would say things like, “People need to remember to do X.”

      Well, I never knew if I was one of the people not doing X or what? So, have you actually spoken to them about what they need to improve, directly?

      Lastly, this maybe one of those things you just have to deal with if your boss isn’t going to help you solve it.

    4. Erin*

      I was a substitute teacher for four years. K-12 all subjects 5 different school districts. It’s impossible to keep track of every teachers individual rules, forget remembering every students name. If the sub is doing a different type of job everyday, it all becomes a blur, to cope I just focused on the really important school rules and keeping student on task. I think maybe your sub is trying to focus on the big picture.

    5. Kathenus*

      I echo the other comments about having notebooks with procedures in each area, whenever possible, as a resource. I used to manage both a permanent and relief staff in an area, and one thing we started doing was having a section at the front of each area’s manual that listed the dates of all recent updates. So if a relief person came to work, they could easily find the updates since their last shift. Plus the overall manual was also available if they wanted to refresh on any other areas even if there had been no changes or updates.

  83. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

    So, I filled out a job application last night and came to the page about voluntary disability disclosure. I have dealt with some mental illness that certainly qualifies under ADA, but it’s under control and not likely to affect my work in any way. However, the suggestion was to disclose if I’ve EVER experienced anything like that — past or present. I went ahead and marked “yes”.

    Now I’m wondering if this is somehow going to hurt my chances with this position. Do recruiters even see this data or is it truly, as they state, just for government demographics? I know that it’s TECHNICALLY illegal to be discriminated against, but that doesn’t mean it’s IMPOSSIBLE. So…who sees that data? Is it associated with specific applicants or is it just a bulk number? Does anyone know?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I’ve wondered about this as well — what actually constitutes a disability in this situation? Is it self-defined?

      1. Beautiful, talented, brilliant, powerful musk ox*

        They provided a partial list and reference ADA standards which is essentially any condition that causes massive issues with one or more major life activities. So, anything from being paralyzed to having major depression qualifies. Like, I’ve been dealing with an eating disorder which, when it was bad, affected virtually every part of my life. I’ve been doing well, but the question was whether I’ve EVER experienced a disability. I could have chosen to not disclose, but now that I did, I’m concerned it will affect my chance negatively.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t know. I’ve been very upfront this time around about my dyscalculia, because it does affect how I do certain things at work. And I do not want a situation to come up where an employer gives me a task I can’t do or for which I would need accommodation or assistance and then thinks I’m just making it up because I don’t want to do it.

      The only problem is that nobody knows what the f*ck it is and they never look it up. But I can’t say it has affected anything; most of the jobs I’ve been interviewing for I didn’t really want anyway.

    3. Toph*

      I imagine this probably varies a ton depending on who is doing it, so my answer may not be at all helpful. However, in situations where I’ve been involved with (on the asking side) any sort of form that say “this part is just for demographics”, the response to that bit is stored separately and cannot be tied back to the rest of the stuff. So, for example, all your info from the rest of your application goes into your account and is associated with you. But having ticked that box yes, just ups a counter of how many yeses there were. That’s a simplified example.
      I have no idea how common that is. So it’s totally possible in your case they can actually see that you specifically said yes, and you just have to trust them that they’re not holding it against you. There’s no way to know which it is really.

  84. x*

    For a job that requires a degree that I don’t have, at what point can I go to my manager and say “I have too much work” without looking like I’m not qualified for the job?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Focus on the quantity and not what the work is. You’re qualified to do the work, just not that much of it.

      1. x*

        Perhaps my concern is that I’m not working as fast as someone with a degree? I don’t know this for a fact, I always work with the assumption that I’m not good enough.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Do you have a colleague who does the same amount of work as you in a shorter amount of time? Also, are you new to the job? I’m a fairly efficient worker in a general, but when I’m new to a job, it still sometimes takes me a while to get an efficient workflow for that particular workplace.

        2. Ramona Flowers*

          Why don’t you start by asking how long things should be taking you?

          FYI, I don’t believe having a degree makes someone a faster worker.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Yeah, I know way too many people with master’s degrees or even doctoral ones who are super inefficient.

            By the way, I do have a degree but not in what I do now. I’ve had no formal training in my current career, but I’m still efficient in it.

            Sounds more like imposter syndrome than anything else.

  85. Your Weird Uncle*

    I posted a couple of weeks ago about my request for a title change (to be equal to annoying coworker’s) and how it evolved into my boss, since retired, recommending I apply for her job. Update!

    Since I was dusting off my resume anyway, I decided to apply for two other jobs as well as the managerial role. I got called in for interviews for all three! No word yet, and I may have just bombed the management role post-interview (eep), but I’m keeping my fingers crossed. I’m not sure I want my old boss’s job as it comes with a LOT of baggage, but it’s a lot more money and would be a great career step. The one I really want looks promising, but I’m not sure it’ll happen as I might be up against other folks with a lot more experience in my field than I have. And finally, I have an interview this afternoon for the third job, which doesn’t pay as well as the other two but looks interesting and would still be a good career step. So much has happened as a result of that one conversation, I’m having a hard time keeping up with the changes!

    1. Chaordic One*

      This is wonderful! I guess you just have to sit back and see how things play out for now, but it sounds like you have options. If one of these jobs isn’t the right on, don’t give up and please apply for some other things.

  86. Lizzard*

    How does one go about obtaining an informational interview? I’ve been thinking about switching to a field that’s different, but still related to what I do currently. The thing is I have almost no connections in that field. I can think of two, but they’re tenuous at best. I’d like to learn more about what working in that field is like, preferably from someone who will be candid me about the pros and cons. Do you have to personally know someone to ask them for an informational interview?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      No, but it helps to at least have a mutual connection who can introduce you to the person with whom you’d conduct the informational interview, vouch for your interest, and provide a little context.

    2. linkedin*

      if you use linkedin and are an alum of a university, you can use their alum feature to make connections. I’ve done a fair bit of “cold calling” for informational interviews but I do think I’ve had more success when there is some connection – however tenuous – I can make.

    3. T3k*

      The one informational interview I had, I didn’t know them personally. It was actually one of those “spouse of someone who works with relative” type deals. But they were able to introduce me and gave me a few hours to talk to different people in their dept. about what they did, what I’d have to know if I wanted to go into that field, how they got there, etc.

      I probably put a dampener on that bridge (long story short: don’t send emails when pissed off at someone else. It didn’t come off as mad in the email, but probably childish because I said something like “Can you let me know about such and such so I can tell my mom to stop hassling me about this?”). But the look on my mom’s face was priceless and she stopped bugging me about following up when applying to places after that.

    4. CatCat*

      You don’t have to personally know someone to ask, but you may be more likely to get them to agree to talk to you if you have some connection. Being alumni of the same college or advanced degree program works well. Members of the same social circles, civic clubs, volunteer groups also works well.

    5. Here we go again*

      If there is a professional association related to that field, start there. I had a lot of luck cold-emailing when I was researching other career opportunities.

    6. JulieBulie*

      I didn’t know the person I called at all. I read an article about something I was interested in, and the person who was quoted turned out to be from a local company, so I called the place, talked to him, met with him and his sister and brother (small, family-owned company), and pretty much got what I needed and then some. Plus they gave me lunch.

  87. Margali*

    So, anyone here who has done hiring — have you ever offered referral bonuses to your employees? Did it end up being a good use of money? We’re having trouble filling some of our open positions. I think a big problem is that these are lower-paid positions in a high cost of living area. In order for the salary range to be raised, the managers/CEO would have to give the entire department a raise, in order to prevent salary inequity between new and long-term employees. It may possibly come down to that, but they wan to try some other things instead. We are a small company, just over 100 people.

    1. My name is Inigo Montoya*

      We made the switch from referral bonuses to extra PTO days. You have to tax bonuses at a higher rate, so people were disappointed that their $500 bonus was only $200ish dollars in their pocket. But 2 extra days of PTO is 2 extra days of PTO. It also equates the bonus regardless of level (entry-level, manager, etc). I think that people are inherently likely to refer people when its a good environment, but a referral bonus is a nice thing to do, because it’s about the culture of the company more than the “value” of the bonus.

      1. Here we go again*

        Just to be clear, bonuses are not taxed at a higher rate…. They are WITHHELD at a higher rate and it evens out when you do your taxes the next year. That’s a major difference and as someone who would rather take the money, it irks me that people don’t get that, and that the company changed their policy because people can’t understand.

        1. Natalie*

          Plus, assuming this is the US, there’s no way that a bonus gets withheld by 60% unless there’s some state out there with 35% supplemental withholding, which I rather doubt.

      2. krysb*

        I don’t know about referral bonuses specifically (for example, I made $6,000 in total bonuses last year, but on average my bonuses were $300 before taxes, about $250 after taxes), but I get monthly bonuses and yearly bonuses where I work, and the withholding is the same as my general taxes. I have to note that we don’t have state taxes here, just federal withholdings.

      3. Kathenus*

        I love the PTO idea! I only worked one place with referral bonuses, and there was frequently this weird dynamic where you felt like you should share the bonus with the applicant if they were a friend. PTO takes that potential out of it and the tax issue is definitely a problem – so great idea.

  88. Language Lover*

    Have you ever gone ‘against’ references before?

    Here’s the situation. We’ve been hiring for a PT position that we keep having to fill due to the fact that people are getting full time jobs. Good for them but it puts us back into hiring mode more than we’re used to.

    We recently went through an interview process, selected our top candidate (although we had a 2nd choice who was pretty much equal). We did reference checks on both and the references for our topic candidate confirmed a lot of what we liked about them–got along with people (it’s public-facing so this is important), seemed committed…etc. But they all references mentioned the same weaknesses. Some of the weaknesses would not matter given the flexibility of our position and the candidate had a somewhat decent explanation for the one that concerned us the most but we ultimately chose our 2nd choice–who took another opportunity almost as soon as they began.

    So now we’re back in hiring mode. We liked the person we hired but we were wistful about not hiring our first choice. So we’re debating whether or not taking a risk is worth it. Has anyone done this?

    1. Language Lover*

      And just in case it’s not clear, the hiring process we just completed was still recent enough where we are just using the previous candidate pool to start. We are debating going with that first choice or interviewing some people whose applications came in after we had started the interview process.

    2. Mephyle*

      It sounds like you’re fairly satisfied that the weaknesses probably won’t keep them from doing well in the job. I wouldn’t exactly call that “going against references.” It’s more a case of taking the information the references gave you and critically evaluating what it tells you about the candidate’s likely performance in this job.
      But you still have some doubts. You mentioned that some of the weaknesses won’t apply in your situation. Of the remaining ones, the candidate had an explanation for the one that concerned you most. That still leaves some weaknesses of lesser concern that could still have an impact. What about those?

      1. Language Lover*

        The smaller weaknesses don’t bother me because we’re a similar environment but not as busy as where this candidate likely came from. So things like talking too long with customers when there’s other work to be done is not normally an issue.

        I’m working with HR to see if I can contact the references to try to get more context. They seemed reluctant for some reason, during our first round but seeing the other open thread comment and the main page comment is making me feel like this really needs to happen.

        For instance, let’s say one of the critiques was “sometimes uses unprofessional language.” I’d want to know what unprofessional is to them. Is it a swear word every now and then with peers or is it all the time with customers? For some offices, the first situation would not fly. For other places, it’d be no big deal. Or is it just a lot of slang which I know would be okay with our culture. Or is it swearing all the time which would not be okay.

        But it’s really hard to know without more specifics.

        1. Kathenus*

          Since you’ve already talked with the candidate about the one issue, and gotten their feedback, what about a follow up conversation before making a decision with the realities of the position related to the potential areas of concern. For example, “In the past you’ve had a tendency to talk too long with customers, creating wait times for others. In this position you’ll need to be able to keep people moving through the queue at a brisk pace – do you feel that you can adapt to this work style?”

          This way you’re both getting answers straight from them to help you analyze how their past performance might impact their success in the new job, and you’re also giving them advance information about what the job will be like so they can make an informed decision about whether it’s right for them. They’ll also have some idea of the expectations for the job, so if later they need to be coached on them it’ll be easier to reference “as we discussed in the interview process, you need to be able to keep the line moving”.

  89. katamia*

    Another “when to tell my boss I’m leaving” question, with a side of “all scripts for how to tell them I’m going to grad school and kept it a secret for way too long (yes, I feel super awkward about this) welcome.”

    So I’m planning to move for grad school in mid-September. I want to give my employer (part-time retail job but for a small org) more than 2 weeks notice. I’m confident that they’re going to want me to keep working there as long as I can, and I want to give them time to hire someone to replace me before I leave because everyone’s totally swamped there.

    But the visa process is taking a really long time. Worst-case scenario depending on how paperwork shakes out is I might not get it until September (as in I might be leaving in less than two weeks and . I’m really anxious about this and worried it might be denied (realistically, everything’s in order and I’m sure it’ll be fine, but I’m not going to be 100% sure until I actually have it). No visa, no grad school and I’ll want to stay at my job for now.

    So if I tell them too soon, they might not need me if they hire someone else, but I don’t want to leave them shorthanded either.

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      I think I’d just lay all my cards on the table. “Hey boss, I’m planning to go to grad school out of the country starting in September. I want to give you as much notice as possible, but I’m hitting snags with my visa, and if I’m not able to begin school this fall because of it, I’ll want to stay here. I wish I could be more definitive, but I will keep you abreast as the situation plays out.”

  90. Mrs. Psmith*

    I know there are a lot of librarians on here so I’m looking for some advice particularly from Texas librarians. I have library experience in academic, public and for the last decade in a special library (research/corporate). I’ve been the head of that department since I started (more of a project manager as I have no direct reports. I provide services and research/content to the rest of the local branch and occasionally for other branches and corporate). I do not have my masters, but have essentially functioned as a librarian.
    But my favorite parts of the job have slowly been eliminated, outsourced or automated over the last few years and my workload replaced with administrative work (as they’ve eliminated admins and other support roles). Plus the pay is stagnant and the benefits so-so. The only real positives are I love (most) of my coworkers and I have a decent amount of flexibility with my schedule. So I’m looking at a slight career move. I also have a preschooler and a toddler, so I’ve started envying my friends and relatives who work in school environments and have longer breaks, especially summer and winter breaks. (My industry is notorious for working long hard hours with few paid holidays off.)
    That leads me to wanting to look into school librarianship and going back to get my masters. Any advice for people who have gone back and gotten their masters? Was it worth it? I already know it is difficult, but not impossible to get into the local school districts in my area (there are several to choose from, I’m in a good-sized city). And I know I will not be able to hammer out the degree super quickly since I work full time and have small kids. One stumbling block I’ve run into so far is that Texas apparently makes you teach for two years before you can get the school librarian certification, which makes me balk a bit. I do not want to run a classroom, I want to run a library!
    So basically, any advice, wisdom, encouragement, “here’s how I pulled it off” stories? Thank you!

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I am not a school librarian, but my two best friends from library school are. Both of them have told me the same thing, “If you don’t want to teach and run a classroom, than do not become a school librarian.”

      They do a lot more teaching and classroom management, than they do librarianship. Just something to think about. As I said, I’m not one, so other school librarians may have other opinions. One is in Washington state and the other is in Arkansas.

        1. AnotherLibrarian*

          Yeah. There’s a reason I once had three friends who were school librarians and I now have 2 friends and one of them is looking for another job. Is there a local Texas library association that might have some folks who could give you more insight in your local area? Some states have School Librarian round tables as part of their statewide associations.

          Also, a lot of school librarians are also school IT support.

        2. Oryx*

          Also, I can’t speak for Texas but I work in the field and in my state, school librarians are spread very, very thin. They are not a required position so a lot of schools have just gotten rid of the position altogether and those librarians lucky enough to have a job usually work multiple buildings of a single district so you might see the second graders for two hours a week and that’s it.

      2. Language Lover*

        That’s what I was coming to say too. And that applies to many academic librarians as well depending on what kind of positions they hold. In many ways it is a lot better than having my own class (although many librarians do have their own classes) because I really don’t have to grade students but that comes with its own set of challenges as well. Overall, though, it’s the best of both worlds for me.

        1. Bibliovore*

          I was a school librarian for 15 years. Because of the perception that the librarian is “non essential” be prepared to spend a good portion of your work life in “pr” Working with the PTO, team meetings with teachers, early morning IAP meetings. Fixed schedules with class blocks and no prep time. Remember that summers off is good in theory but…there is a lot of admin and physical work with the library at the end of the year.You might end up spending a week after teachers leave with cleanup. Budgets for materials are low and you might find yourself short of current tech as well as materials to support curriculum.

          1. Bibliovore*

            oh and you will probably need certification if you do not have ed/ teaching credits in addition to your library degree.

    2. FatAshes*

      This is a little late, but most of the school librarians I know here in Texas started out as teachers and then went back for a library certification. In many districts, you actually don’t need the MLS, just the School Librarian Certification– which makes it attractive for teachers who want to get out of the classroom, but don’t want to go back for a masters degree, or 2nd masters degree. From what I’ve heard getting a school library job can be tough, with preference frequently going to veteran teachers in that district.

      As far as I know there is no way around the teaching for two years bit, unless you take a look at private schools. If you check the TLA website those jobs do come up from from time to time, but the pay is never great.

      I’d suggest public libraries, but there is really no way around nights and weekends unless you’re in administration, and in my experience there isn’t a ton of flexibility.

    3. ModernHypatia*

      Depending where you are, independent schools might be an option (they’ll want the MLIS but don’t care about teaching certification.) However, that only works if there’s enough schools in your area you might be willing to work with that might be hiring any time soon.

      Another option, if you’re comfortable with technology, and like the idea of working one on one, is instructional design. This isn’t necessarily a school year position, but it’s usually more flexible about scheduling than what you have now. Community colleges, universities, and some school districts are likely to have them, plus there’s corporate training options.

      Usually, the instructional designer is the one designing the course materials and making the technical parts go into whatever system is used, but other people are actually teaching the course content. Your background in academic libraries would be a benefit.

  91. Manders*

    Does anyone have any advice about reducing crankiness caused by a lousy commute? I recently bought a condo knowing that the bus commute would be kind of a mess for a few years until the city finishes its new light rail system. I used to walk to work (about an hour’s brisk walk round trip daily) and the sudden transition to stressing about my never-on-time bus and fighting my way onto an overcrowded bus daily is making me cranky.

    I know a lot of people go through this, I’m just struggling to adjust.

    1. Volunteer Coordinator in NOVA*

      I think trying to embrace it and find ways to reduce the awfulness of it all is all you can really do. I commute in a car so a little bit different but even when I used public transport, I would listen to lots of podcasts while I was commuting. It was a great way to use the time as I often wouldn’t listen to them to at home as other things would come up and I need something to distract me. Audiobooks are also great for this. I also use time stuck commuting as a way to unwind before I get home so hopefully by the time I get home from work, all the stuff that I let bother me or annoy me is in the background.

      1. My name is Inigo Montoya*

        It’s about re-framing it in your mind. My commute is my “me time” – and yes I know that sometimes sounds sad. But it depends on what I need that day. Sometimes I’m on the metro catching up on Buzzfeed (it’s very important) or sometimes I’m emailing a friend. Some days all I want is music or a novel or to stare into space. But I’ve decided that my commute is my time to recharge and not stress because I can’t control the train.

        Some days I still get grumpy – nothing is more frustrating than a hot car on the metro that randomly stops in a tunnel. But lots of days, I like knowing that I have 20-40 minutes to turn off my brain and reset before I get home.

        1. Manders*

          The thing I’m really struggling with is that it’s not the time on the bus that’s so bad, it’s the time spent waiting for the bus, worrying about whether it’s going to be on time or show up at all (sometimes a problem on this route!), trying to see if my bus has arrived when I’m 5 feet tall and there’s a crowd I can’t see over, worrying about whether the bus will be so full they’re not letting anyone on, etc. There’s something about not knowing whether I have a reliable route home that stresses me out. 90% of the time it’s fine, but that 10% uncertainty is really getting to me.

    2. paperfiend*

      My normally-fine bus commute is really bad right now because of summer road construction (I’m spending an extra hour on the bus each day).

      I splurged and upgraded my data plan to unlimited and now I’m watching through Dr Who during my commute. I also switched to a different route that takes 10 minutes longer but doesn’t require me catching a connection. I’m much less cranky! It helps that I have a spouse who doesn’t complain when I’m unexpectedly delayed as long as I let him know.

      1. paperfiend*

        Oh, and it also helps that I arranged with my spouse that I get the car (we only have one) at least once a week during this season. Knowing I get a break from the bus commute — even though it means dealing with *driving* through the construction — really helps. The parking fee is worth it!

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      This may not work for you, but when I had a long commute I used to knit hats and listen to podcasts. That helped a little.

    4. Foreign Octopus*

      A book! I know you said the bus is overcrowded so maybe an audiobook downloaded onto a smart device. I have a 30 minute commute (walk) to my language academy and I use that time to listen to downloaded radio shows in Spanish so that the time isn’t wasted. Something like that might help.

    5. Manders*

      Just to clarify: I’ve got plenty to entertain me on the bus, it’s the time spent waiting for the bus and the uncertainty and stress caused by a bus that’s unreliable that’s getting to me. I’m also very short and have a hard time with getting overlooked and pushed around in crowded areas, although I’m not sure there’s a solution for that.

    6. Here we go again*

      Is the bus the only option? I switched from the bus to biking as my primary commute method and figured out that it was faster and easier for me. I hate standing around waiting for something… I need to be moving to not get antsy.

      Some cities are also starting vanpooling/carpooling systems, so it might be worth researching.

      1. Manders*

        Biking’s not an option, unfortunately. I’ll look into vanpooling–do you know if vanpools will take people who don’t drive and just want to be passengers?

        1. Here we go again*

          I know some of them are becoming very sophisticated. I **think** some cities have ones where you have a driver working for the local transportation group who just drives the same group of people along the same routes on a regular basis. None of the passengers are actually drivers, from what I understand… Sort of like an UberShare, except pre-scheduled and no surge fares.

    7. Trillian*

      Hello fellow sufferer of light-rail construction blues! Are the buses in your city GPS-equipped, by any chance? My iPhone’s transit app does wonders for my patience. Rather than waiting in limbo, I check it and see that my A bus is 20 minutes behind schedule and about to turn into the local parking strip, so it’ll be faster to catch the B bus and make a connection.

      1. Bibliovore*

        I feel your pain. At stint with a nightmare commute, I arranged to have flextime so that I got there really early so that I didn’t have to deal with the anxiety of the crowded bus/waiting crowd part of the commute. In another although I had to start my shift at their time, I went super early, had my breakfast at work, read the paper, caught up on personal stuff then was ready for work. The less stress on the commute was worth getting there an hour early.

    8. Mahna Mahna*

      I know this is a really late response but on the off chance you see it –

      Is there any possibility of changing where you get on the bus? Many buses have busier bus stops and a five minute walk down the block will get you on before people pack on it. Or even take a bus in the other direction and get on a bit earlier.

      Depending on just how bad it is, grab a coffee one day and spend an hour watching the buses go by. Commuter traffic can be fairly reliable when the weather is consistent and you can see if there are emptier buses or a twenty minute period where it just makes sense to not touch transit.

  92. over educated*

    How do you know when it’s time to make a career switch when you still like your work?

    I’m in a field I would stay in given the choice, but I’m not in a permanent position, and it looks likely that due to budget issues there will be no likelihood of hiring when I need a new job. Positions in my field are pretty rare and niche, they often require moving cross-country, and on the non-profit side they don’t always pay enough, while on the government side…budget issues. Though I care about the work and do it well, I simply may not be financially or personally able to move to some random place a year from now.

    I’ve been putting out just a few slow feelers in the last month, and it looks like moving to the for-profit sector would require gaining some new skill sets and making some emotional choices, like moving from artisanal teapot marketing to technical writing for dishwashers. Right now I am pretty much at capacity between working full time, parenting, and regular life stuff, so I don’t have the time or energy to enroll in a certificate program. I also just don’t want to spend all my evenings and weekends working on career 2 while still working at career 1, I want to hang out with my family. Is it completely stupid to just try to stick it out in career 1 until I hit the end of the road, or is the time when you’re employed really the time to suck it up and put the effort into making yourself even more employable?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I think I would spend my limited time looking for Option 3. It sounds like you don’t love the idea of writing for dishwashers anyway, so I’m not sure I would want to put in time to get education in that area just to have a j-o-b that you may hate. You’ve probably thought about it some already, but is there a career option with more local options that uses the skills you already have? Can you focus on meeting with other dishwasher writers & network your way into the position? Or at least confirm that the skill sets you think you would need are needed (reality vs. the job ads)?

      Personally, I am in a similar situation where I’m locked in by 17 years of experience to a specific job that pays well. I waffle between figuring out how to make myself qualified for other things and just making the best of this for as long as I can (knowing I will be able to afford a pay cut in 5-10 years). I don’t mind what I’m doing, but I have a hard time seeing this particular work situation lasting 15-20 more years when I’ve already worked here for 12.

      1. over educated*

        Dishwashers is option 3! It’s the most interesting sounding option I’ve identified from trying to talk to people about what different options are open to someone with my skill set, and I’m trying to expand the number of people I talk to in the field. The things I could do outside of my field without expanding my skill set sectors or shifting would probably revolve more around the areas I dislike most about my current job, and I think I’d rather do tasks I prefer in a different area than tasks I hate in an area I like. The salary ceiling is higher in dishwashers, too. I just am not that excited about it because I’ve put 10 years of schooling and work into trying to have a career in artisanal teapots, so it’s hard to feel forced out by circumstance and timing.

        It is probably much harder to figure out whether to shift when you actually are in a job that pays well – it’s almost the reverse in a way, where you have the stability but don’t want to stay in the job! Knowing how much effort to put into preparing for other things when you already have a full life is tough.

  93. My name is Inigo Montoya*

    So… I know that one of the people on my team is job hunting. I shouldn’t know this, but she has a bad habit of leaving her personal email open on her screen and walking away from her desk. Since I sit two feet away, it’s impossible not to notice.

    The hard part is, she directly supports me so her leaving would impact me more than anyone else. But I’m not her boss. We both report to the same offsite manager, so I only oversee her day-to-day. She does great work and I want her to stay, but I don’t have any way to directly incentive her (pay increase, etc). The assignments are what they are – admin and clerical. I can bring her into so higher level stuff – but with the volume of admin work required in the role, it quickly becomes a capacity issue. I don’t expect people to stick around forever, but a year+ would be nice.

    Do I tell her I know she’s job hunting and ask what I can do to make her stay? Do I keep ignoring it? Do I have any moral obligation to tell my boss so he can try to incentive her to stay (before it’s too late)?

    1. Kim Possible*

      Ignore it. Even thought she leaves her personal email about and sits two feet away, it’s still not your business.

      Please don’t tell her boss – it could really hurt her standing in your current company, as well as influence her chances with prospective employees. If you like her, you’ll let her do what’s best for HER – remember, she’s job searching for a reason. There are always growing pains when an employee leaves and has to be replaced – you run that risk being in any position. Anyone could leave at any given time without you knowing about it beforehand.

    2. Spidersinmyattic*

      I wouldn’t address it directly as you don’t know what her reasons might be for looking and also how seriously she is actually looking for something else. I would have a more general conversation about how she’s finding things (environment, type of work etc.) to see if there is anything she mentions for improvement that you could help with.

      1. My name is Inigo Montoya*

        ugg… I was afraid people would tell me to ignore it… She’s just awesome and I don’t want to loose her and train someone again in less than six months. But I don’t want to cause any drama between her and my boss either. Any tips for keeping someone happy in an admin role that can never be more than an admin role?

          1. HannahS*

            Back when I was looking for admin work in medical settings, I saw many postings that said stuff like, “We are looking for an long-term employee building a career in administration. This job is not appropriate for students applying to medical or graduate school.” In interviews, too, if you’re involved, you can ask things like, “Where do you see your career going in the long term? Where do you plan to wind up?” People can still lie, of course, or become unhappy in a position, but those kinds of things definitely weeded me (and many other honest applicants) out.

    4. Snark*

      “Do I tell her I know she’s job hunting and ask what I can do to make her stay? Do I keep ignoring it? Do I have any moral obligation to tell my boss so he can try to incentive her to stay (before it’s too late)?”

      No, yes, and absolutely not.

  94. Bird*

    Vent/Question:
    I’m a PhD student currently working for a different school within my university part time (i.e., I study “history of teapot making” while working for the “School of Rice Sculpture”) . I’ve been working there for a long time, so I have gained more and more responsibilities for complex projects. One of them is to create/lay out/edit a series of instruction manuals for a research-based community program on “Rice Sculpture Ergonomics” – a participant, leader, and trainer manual. The trainer manual is the last one, meant to be used to train new instructors in rice sculpture ergonomics, and so far I have created almost 80 pages of instructional content as well as the structure of an entire one-day training course. I’m now at the point where I need specific information on the research history of the project, as well as input from the PI of the project on the content/training schedule so far, but I can’t get it. I’ve been asking for this feedback and information since March. We have weekly meetings scheduled, most of which end up cancelled. She does not respond to email. Other project members cannot sign off on the content. This is not my field at all, and I’ve worked extremely hard to make sure the the information I’m giving is accurate, safe, and appropriate for this program, but I’ve reached the end of my knowledge. The grant that funds this project is ending in August, and I’m worried that my name will be on an unfinished project. It is entirely possible that I will be an easy target for blame, and because I have never been directly involved in meeting with the administrators of the grant, I will have no way to explain why the trainer manual isn’t done. What more can I do here? This is not the only project I’m struggling with under this PI, and because I can’t get the support I need, I’m having a hard time getting all my work done (because it takes much longer than it should as I scramble to find information from other sources) and motivating myself to deal with the other issues of mismanagement of my time (i.e., expecting me to spend all my contracted hours on one project when I’m required to split my time between seven separate projects on four different funding streams).

    1. over educated*

      I’ve run into this a lot. It’s a symptom of needing to work with busy people above your pay grade or outside your line of command – sometimes they just ignore you. You need heavier hitters to intervene to get the information. Talk to your management about who is someone higher up who could get the PI’s attention and tell her WHY she should care – requirement of the grant, highly visible project supported by university administration, her name will be on it, whatever. The problem isn’t the message itself, it’s that you are not in a position to deliver the message successfully.

    2. Channel Z*

      I have similar situation with a PI dragging her feet to organize samples for shipping that need to be finished end of August, it’s been dragging for over a year. I got advice from a long-term staffer, put Deadline: July 31st in the email subject, then a one sentence email saying Teapot samples need to be sent by NO LATER THAN JULY 31st in order to be complete for the project. If that didn’t work, phone to follow up or knock on her office door. I did get an email reply, and I followed up in person too. We will see if I get the shipment notice on Monday.

    3. TL -*

      You’re a PhD student? Is this your PI you’re struggling with or just one you’re working with? If it’s the latter, it’s your PI’s job to step in at this point and put the pressure on. Your PI is supposed to spend their political capital on their head students, so tell them everything you’ve done and let them know you need them to step in.
      If it’s your PI, send the deadline email, talk to their admin assist about needing to get and stay on their calendar, and ask other grad students what they’ve done. If there’s any other PIs who are waiting on your work, let them know the hold up, and look into your grad student office to see what support they can provide.

  95. Batshua*

    No news on the R”H front besides a suggestion from regional Union Guy: “Have you tried switching with your coworkers?”

    Uh, yes, I asked the person who I thought was most sympathetic and was told that their time off was already approved. So… No progress so far?

        1. Teapot Librarian*

          I was thinking more of finding relevant laws and going to the employer’s attorneys, but that works too :-)

  96. Rebecca*

    I share an office with other people. It’s a small area, and I always tell them when I’m on a conference call. I wear a headset and mute my end, until I have to speak, then quickly hit the mute button again. My office mates are quiet in the background for about 1 minute, then they start to chat. Other people come in. They chat too. I’ve started to put a noise canceling earbud in my free ear, but it’s so hard to concentrate. I turn around and say “hey guys, I’m on a call, can we hold it down?” This makes me a killjoy. Today I heard someone behind me say “is she STILL on that call?” and someone else said “yeah, I don’t give a sh** if they hear me or not”. You might have guessed the reason for the muting – the constant swearing in the background. This morning, I was just about to speak, and one of them started swearing about “effing” this and “effing” that, and I was terrified that this would bleed over into the call. I’ve gotten many comments from other participants about noise in the background, as in “what’s all that commotion in the background” and these comments are from VP level.

    I brought this up to my manager, the constant swearing, complaining, etc. and asked if I could be moved in with other people, but that was turned down. So, I have to deal with it. I’ve pointed out that we have several empty offices, and asked that one be set up with a computer and phone so we can participate in online meetings in a quiet place. Keeping fingers crossed this happens sooner than later.

    I like my job otherwise. But really, there’s no reason to swear like that at work. Save it for later.

    1. KR*

      I would think this sounds really necessary seeing as there’s swearing and people have commented on the background noise. Can you use your cell phone and duck into the empty rooms, or step outside and enjoy the summer during your call?

      1. Rebecca*

        Cell phone would be a good idea if I just had to listen, except I need to be able to see the meeting screen as we discuss things that are being shown by the presenter, and I need to make notes and comments along the way. I am hopeful for a “meeting room” so I can just leave my desk and get away from it.

    2. T3k*

      I don’t have any input to give, just sorry you have such crappy coworkers. It almost sounds like you’re working with some of my past floormates in college (I swear, the “is she still on that call?” brought back flashbacks of hearing one go “is she still studying?” when I asked them to be quiet for the hundredth time at 1am).

    3. Toph*

      This does not make you a killjoy. This makes you a professional, while your officemates are unfortunately not. I know they don’t seem receptive and in the moment, and are clearly very rude, but have you told them directly after one of these calls “hey, there were VPs on that call and they’re asking me why you’re swearing in the background? You’re making us all look bad” ? If the appeal to common courtesy failed, I’d head toward trying to mortify them.

      1. Rebecca*

        And I did just that. After a call, I said, hey, El Presidente was on the call, and he could have heard you using the “F” word…and I was about to ask her to keep it down, and she said “He knows how I am, after all these years, so what the “f” ever.”

        And I try to be professional. I have regular calls with the president of my division, vice presidents, and other lead people because I am the support person for providing data, call outs with data analysis, that type of thing, so I need to be involved. Plus, this is an opportunity for me to learn new things and grow. My mates whine about is it Friday yet on Monday morning. I’m really not a good fit with them.

        1. JulieBulie*

          I wonder, if these are senior management people on the call, they hear all the ruckus, would one of them possibly be inclined to interfere on your behalf in some way?

          1. Kathenus*

            Agreed. Maybe stop trying so hard to block out the coworkers on internal calls (meaning those from your company versus external customers). Warn the coworkers in advance of the conference call, maybe have a sign you hang that says ‘on conference call’ for the duration so no one can say they weren’t aware, and then if the VP’s and higher ups hear the language and have a problem with it, they can help become part of the solution. Basically stop jumping through hoops to protect your coworkers if they’re not willing to meet you halfway.

            For calls that might involve those outside your business, I agree with your current plan to minimize the exposure to the offensive language; but for internal audiences just participate in the call as you want and need to and let the senior management address the problem if they would like.

  97. Bigglesworth*

    I have some good news to share with everyone. My husband and I moved to Virginia so I could attend law school (GMU), but that meant he had to leave his job. He’s an electrical apprentice, so that meant transferring schools, finding new employment, etc. He not only found a job within a week of applying, it’s at a company that pays the most in the region and has the highest safety rating. He wrapped up his first week this week and is loving it!

    In other news, I start class on Monday night and am a nervous wreck. I know I’ll make it through, but I haven’t been in class for 4 years and hope that I figure out how to succeed in law school quickly!

  98. KatieKate*

    One week until my program and I am kind of falling apart. We just noticed that we don’t have enough supplies, one of my locations won’t get back to me about confirmation, and my timing is A LOT tighter than it was supposed to be. These are all things I should have caught a while ago, but din’t. ARG

    Plus I got hit with a big medical bill today, so I am stresssssssing.

  99. Spills*

    Looking for people’s take on promoting yourself at work:

    I work on an events team at a hotel, and lately, especially after the last few difficult clients, the clients have sent emails thanking me for doing an amazing job, saying the event wouldn’t have been the same without me, etc etc, and also praising the rest of the team and the hotel more generally. I have been forwarding along the emails to my boss and the sales manager who also works with the clients to book the events prior to passing them along to me for servicing, and frame the emails in the context of “hey, here’s great feedback on our team/hotel from another client!” and it was truly something that I thought the team would like to know, that another client left our hotel happy. However, in the majority, it is clear that they are mostly praising me. Thoughts on whether it is braggadocious or warranted for me to forward along emails like that?

    2. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

      I would definitely keep forwarding them! I keep an email folder of messages where my work was praised. I open it on difficult days, and use it when I’m job searching and I need concrete examples of work accomplishments. Keep rockin’ it!

  100. swala*

    How soon is too early to ask about maternity leave, flexibility, work from home, etc. in the interview process? I see a lot of recommendations to wait until the offer stage, but I’m not sure that works for me. I really like my job it has great maternity leave, really flexible and I get one work from home day a week, but I’m sick of my 3 hour round trip commute. So I’m applying to places closer to home.

    But if these benefits aren’t comparable to the ones I have now, I wouldn’t want to continue on with the process. These benefits are probably more important to me than most anything else so I feel like I want to ask about them when I get a phone interview. Is that too soon? I wouldn’t want to waste their time or mine by going through the whole process, only to turn the job down becuase their benefits aren’t good.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      It’s a balancing act. By asking about maternity leave benefits, they may assume that you plan to take that leave soon and (either deliberately or subconsciously) discriminate against you.

      But it sounds like you’re clear that you wouldn’t want to be somewhere that doesn’t offer strong benefits and a culture of family friendliness, so that may be a risk you’re willing to take in exchange for the benefit of not wasting your time.

      If that’s true, I think you can do that during a phone interview. When they are for your questions (or, if they don’t, at the end of their structured conversation), you can just ask directly: “Can I ask about some of your benefits? I want to make sure that this could be a good fit for both of us before we move forward with any next steps. I’m particularly interested in your maternity leave, flex hours, and work from home policies.”

    2. Murphy*

      I think flexibility/work from home is probably appropriate to ask during the interview stage. (My first “real” job was somewhere with REALLY strict come and go times, and now I’m someplace that’s really flexible, so that kind of thing is probably a question I’d ask if I was ever changing jobs.) I might not ask about maternity leave specifically, but maybe ask about benefits in general.” I’d probably wait for an in person interview to ask about benefits though.

    3. Emilitron*

      In all many of my interviews, I got a packet of paper materials from HR about their benefits, or a link to an HR website with more information. Maybe you can just ask for a copy of their documents, which will answer all your questions?

  101. Stop That Goat*

    So, what are the thoughts on providing a couple years of performance reviews for your current job when you are interviewing? Mine aren’t marked confidential and I do have physical copies of all of them. I am not comfortable enough to let my boss or director know that I’m job hunting/interviewing until I have an offer. I’d be willing to share them as a reference once an offer was on the table though.

    Thoughts on providing current performance reviews prior to offer?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Unsolicited? No, don’t do that.

      I suppose you could offer them if they push you for a reference from your current employer (“My current employer doesn’t know I’m interviewing, and I’m concerned that they would move me out if they knew I was looking elsewhere. Here are some other references you can contact. I’m also happy to share copies of my performance reviews from my current role, if that’s helpful.”)

    2. Graciosa*

      Please don’t.

      I have only ever seen this (twice in a long career) from *very* poor candidates.

      This is Not Done in the U.S. (I can’t speak for other countries). It signals that you lack confidence in something important (whether it’s the likelihood that any past employer will speak positively about you or your ability to present yourself professionally and explain your work in a normal interview). It suggests that you think you need printouts (which are ridiculously easy to alter or forge) to support your candidacy.

      I do not recommend it.

      1. Stop That Goat*

        It’s more of a ‘I have other references from previous employers, but I can’t give you a current reference with my current manager until an offer is on the table. However, if it helps, I have these performance reviews in the meantime.’

        I’m confident that my current manager would give a great reference but I’m not willing to make myself more vulnerable than necessary.

        1. Graciosa*

          Reference checking is typically done when there is an offer, and hiring managers generally understand the protocol for dealing with current employers. There is still no reason to present performance reviews, and it would read as someone either not confident (as I described above) or lacking an understanding of professional norms.

          I really advise against this, but this is your career and you have to live with your decision.

          1. Stop That Goat*

            I guess I’m genuinely curious how it would come across as a lack of confidence. It’s just another piece in addition to my references (not in place of). I got 3 hard No’s from here though, so I’m not going to offer unless they are specifically asking about a current manager reference before an offer is made.

            Of course it’s my career and I have to live with the decision. Thanks for your opinion though.

    3. PB*

      Honestly, I would be very put off by if an applicant did this. Yes, a positive performance review is good, but it’s not the same as a positive reference. It’s only one person’s perspective (I’m assuming), and I haven’t had an opportunity to ask questions. In addition, this is part of your personnel file. Even if it’s not confidential, it’s not common to share, even when it is positive.

      1. Stop That Goat*

        How often are you able to get references for current managers though? I have plenty of references from previous employers.

        1. PB*

          As long as you have references from former employers, I think that would be fine. Plenty of our finalists don’t want us contacting their current manager, for obvious reasons. I think this is common enough that most hiring managers wouldn’t bat an eye at it.

          Are the companies you’re interviewing with asking for or requiring a reference from your current manager? If so, I can see why you’d be tempted to use performance reviews. This thing might vary by field, but in mine, it would come across oddly. Not an instant rejection, but it would raise a few eyebrows. Even if they’re not marked “Confidential,” performance are generally considered to be internal business communications.

  102. Beth*

    I have noticed that some jobs that were posted a while ago by local companies (I didn’t apply, I was on the fence) are now being posted by a recruiting company. What does this usually mean? Would I be better off trying to hunt down the original company if I wanted to apply, or go through the recruiter?

  103. Kim Possible*

    What is the most embarrassing thing that you’ve said during a job interview?

    For me, it was a job that I interviewed for just before I graduated college, so I was pretty inexperienced with interviewing!

    The interviewer asked me “how did you find out about this job?” I answered “oh, my dad emailed me the link to the application, he thought that it’d be a good job for me.” I was immediately mortified, feeling like I gave a baby-ish answer that screamed, “mommy and daddy do my job searching for me.” I tried to make it better and justify my answer by following it up with “you know, since I’m new to applying for real jobs, my parents are kind of helping me out with the process.” The interviewer (shockingly! :)) was not impressed.

    Needless to say, I didn’t get the job. I’m still mortified to this day thinking back on it!

    1. Here we go again*

      This goes back to the question a few days ago about a younger employee being “immature” because she was single and talked about her parents instead of her spouse and kids. Why should your dad be seen differently than a friend or other relative? I know that they are seen differently, but it’s frustrating that something so innocuous can make people feel this way.

      1. Kim Possible*

        Very valid point!

        I never saw anything wrong with my parents referring me to job postings. But as you mentioned, parents are seen differently than a friend or relative in this context (which I knew, and which is why I was embarrassed by my answer!)

        1. Artemesia*

          If you say a friend referred you to the ad or whatever, this sounds like the normal networking we all do. To say your parents did so, creates the image of over controlling parents managing the job search and also a candidate who is not independent. It doesn’t matter if Mom is the best connected networker in the universe and passed along a tip she came across in her own work ‘Mommy’ should not show in the interview.

    2. Anon for this*

      When I was in college, I had an internship in an analytical laboratory where they used an instrument called ICP. I wasn’t familiar with it so I asked, “What does ICP stand for?” and one of the employees jokingly told me, “Insane Clown Posse.” We all had a good laugh and then he told me it really stands for inductively coupled plasma spectrometer.

      Fast forward to post-graduation when I had an interview for a full-time job at the same lab. The supervisor conducting the interview had a list of instruments and was asking, “Are you familiar with gas chromatography? Ion chromatography? FTIR?” etc., and when he asked if I was familiar with ICP, I replied, “Insane Clown Posse? Of course, I have all their albums.” I totally thought the supervisor would be impressed by my amazing sense of humor, but he was not amused. I actually got the job, but I still cringe when I think about saying that in the interview!

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      To my dying day I’ll never understand why I thought the best answer to the question “Why do you think you’ll succeed in this [customer service] role?” was “Because I like to be liked.”

      Amazingly, I got the job but I left two weeks later because of a horrific culture of drugs that was prevalent at all levels (I’m talking cocaine, not weed).

      I still cringe at the thought of those words actually leaving my mouth.

      1. Kim Possible*

        Oh my! Sounds like you would have dodged a bullet had that answer prevented you from getting the job!

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          I really, really wished I had but they weren’t good judges at life, let alone hiring idiots who say the above!

    4. anonasaurus*

      I burst into tears. Not just tearing, full ugly cry sobbing*. The interviewers were so lovely and compassionate in their response which only made it worse.

      *I (of course) did not get the job.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      I should have been more embarrassed, but in one interview years ago, I was asked where I see myself in 5 years. I responded with “Working for Famous Agency” (I was not interviewing with Famous Agency at the time and they were in very different fields).

      The weird thing is, it worked for me. Turns out that the group I was interviewing with had someone leave to go work at Famous Agency 10 or 12 years earlier and had became pretty well-known in certain circles, so they were proud of that connection. I had lunch with the team and almost the whole time was spent talking about that. Afterwards, I got a kind-of offer (no budget now, but maybe in two months), but I turned it down.

    6. Moose O'Leenie*

      Many years ago, when I was quite young, I interviewed for a low-level retail manager position at a chain bookstore (remember those). I was asked what was my management style. I was completely unprepared to answer the question and before I knew it I had said, “I’m a benevolent dictator!”

      I didn’t get the job.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        Oh God, that reminds me of a telephone interview I had once.

        I was asked my leadership style and I answered “Well, a mix between the Doctor and Captain Picard, I suppose.”

        My friends and I agreed that I was probably sub-consciously sabotaging that interview because I didn’t want the job.

    7. JulieBulie*

      I called one of my interviewers a dirtbag.

      My father had worked with him, years ago, and they used to call one another a dirtbag. In the moment, I thought it would be funny to resurrect this ancient joke between two people who weren’t me.

      The next morning, I came to my senses and wrote a very good apology, but he had understood what I was trying to do, so everything was cool.

    8. Former fish chucker*

      This didn’t happen to me, and I don’t know if the applicant was embarrassed, but they should have been. I worked at Sea World about 25 years ago and there was a story of an applicant in the final meeting of her interview, with the VP of animal training. Everyone had loved her and they were planning to offer her a job. During this last meeting, she was asked why she thought she was the right candidate for the job. Her reply was that she was a dolphin in a former life and therefore she knew better than others how to work with them. She did not get the job.

  104. Is this Odd?*

    Is it odd that I can’t find a company’s website? I just got an email from someone at a company I’ve never heard of (Xyant?) and Google turns up things like Indeed and Glass Door but I can’t find a company website.

    1. ThatGirl*

      It’s unusual, but they seem to actually exist. And their LinkedIn page has a website (xyant.com) looks like their SEO is just terrible.

      1. Manders*

        Yowza, that’s some bad SEO. They haven’t even claimed their own business with Google so it’s listed as permanently closed when you try to search for it.

        That alone isn’t a dealbreaker in many fields. Lots of small businesses have lousy SEO. But the fact that they’re emailing prospective candidates out of the blue is kind of weird. Did the email come from someone with a xyant.com address?

        1. Is this Odd?*

          It did, and if I had to guess it’s from an office in India. I’m torn between not replying at all and replying with a request for much more information about the job. I didn’t plan to leave DC until next spring when my current project ends and it would take something really impressive to pull me away early.
          Thoughts on reply/don’t reply?

          1. Manders*

            They claim to offer “Recruitment Process Outsourcing & Branding,” so if their own recruiting process is that bad, that’s a pretty big red flag. I also see some pretty bad reviews of their hiring process on Glassdoor, so while they do seem to be a real company, I’d give them a miss.

        2. Observer*

          Seriously. I mean, we don’t have a good site, and have never formally tried to do seo but if you google our name, we come up as the first item, even though our address is not the full organization name. (And, yes, we’re working on a total revamp with SEO built in.) How do you manage to not be found when your name is your web address?! It’s almost like they don’t WANT to be found.

    2. Beth*

      I clicked around on their LinkedIn, and it says their site is just xyant.com. I went there and it looks normal (if not.. great). I would have some concern about the fact that it’s not GREAT, especially considering they seem to be some sort of tech company. And also, they appear to not be great at SEO!

      1. Is this Odd?*

        Yeah, there were red flags in the email too. 1) I didn’t contact them/apply for anything, 2) the email was basically, “We need a technical writer in Nashville, (lists three SUPER basic criteria like ‘SOPs’), please send me your updated resume and your salary requirements”. I’m gainfully employed at a great company but I am looking to move to Nashville next year and have been lightly searching for jobs.

        1. JulieBulie*

          Sometimes, if one recruiter approaches me about a technical writing position, I’ll hear about it from another recruiter the next day.

          And I suspect that some of the “recruiters” I heard from didn’t actually have any positions at all… were just trying to build a database of contact info that they could sell. ICBW, but that’s what some of them smelled like.

  105. Nancy*

    I’m about to go to an interview today that I’m very interested in the job (and the pay is great), but there was no mention of benefits in the ad. I applied anyway and got the interview. I’ve already looked up what ACA would cost me if I had to do it and its pretty close to triple my currently monthly cost for my current job. If would pretty much eat the extra money I would get for the new job. I’m going to ask about if they don’t bring it up first. But, I just wonder if the fact that companies don’t mention benefits in the ads suggest that there are none and I can avoid wasting my time and theirs in the future? I guess, moreso for non-profits. I can’t see not listing that you provide health benefits, that should be a +.

    1. ThatGirl*

      In my experience nonprofits usually have better benefits, because they don’t pay as much. But I suppose that’s not always the case. Definitely ask.

      1. Nancy*

        I definitely will. But I think this one will be backwards. Offering more money because they don’t have benefits. Thanks

      2. SL #2*

        Yeah, my non-profit’s benefits are really great compared to what my friends at corporate institutions are getting, even though they’re making anywhere from $10k-$20k more than I do.

        1. Nancy*

          They actually ended up have health insurance (they pay 65%, which is less than what I get now), but I’m not sure I’m a strong candidate for the position. Talking with them more about their expectations has me questioning whether I have what they need. But I will wait and see if they offer and then take some time to consider, if they do. At this point, realistically, don’t think they will make an offer. With my doubts, I’m okay with that…………onto the next application.

  106. NoodleMara*

    Any advice on dealing with the guilt of job searching?

    I knows there’s an anxiety component to it (and writing this reminded me to make a doctor’s appt for it). I know my workplace is somewhat dysfunctional but it has been a slow realization as I’ve gotten more responsibility and got involved with higher level projects. This is my first job out of college. I interned for two years and have been working here for three full time. They really have invested in me as an employee. But I figured out a month or so ago that I don’t want to work here anymore. I’ve only put out one job application so far but every conversation I have with coworkers just fills me with anxiety that I’m leaving. I’m going to step up my job searching and talk to my doctor but how else can I manage it?

    1. Eric*

      Working with a mental health professional is important here.

      But aside that, remember that a 2 year stint at a job is perfectly acceptable!

    2. Catalin*

      Please remember, you are not betraying your company by leaving. They’re not your children, you’re not their child, it is COMPLETELY OKAY AND NORMAL to leave and I highly recommend it if you don’t want to work there anymore.

    3. k.k*

      The best advice I’ve ever gotten, which is often echoed here: People leaving is a normal part of business and nothing to feel guilty about. You have to stop thinking about it as being so personal.

      I know it’s hard not to feel like you’re personally betraying everyone by trying to leave. If you’re working full time, you basically spend more time with your coworkers than anyone else in your life, so of course it seems personal! But at the end of the day, it’s a job. People come and go all the time. Do your coworkers ever mention previous employees? It’s probably more like “That project was completed by Fergus before he left” and not “That project was completed by the traitor who shall not be named before he bailed on us.” People may miss you when you leave, but no one (who is reasonable) will hold it against you.

  107. AnonGraphicDesigner*

    Intern advice, please!

    I have a student intern returning to our office at the beginning of the upcoming school year, her senior year. I am the FT graphic designer and also intern manager, she is a design intern. Things started off well enough, but toward the end of the year she seemed to have a hard time with receiving feedback and began wearing clothes that were inappropriate for our office. Is this something that I should have a conversation with her about as soon as she returns or should I wait and see if these things are a continuing issue? Outside of the behavioral/dress code issues she does do good work, is skilled, and definitely smart.

    To expand slightly on the issues: she often sighed (and once rolled her eyes!) when I would relay changes that came back from coworkers she worked on projects for. But if the changes were my own or from my (creative director) boss, she would behave just fine. I’m gathering she doesn’t find feedback from coworkers that aren’t graphic designers to be “valid” which will be an issue for her not just here, but anywhere she works. In terms of her clothing, we had a couple FT staff that started wearing workout clothing in the office– the people that had that issue have left and an office reorganization this summer has elevated the level of dress on our floor slightly as the team we share a floor with does outside sales. The intern had started showing up wearing her workout clothing toward the end of the year, I suspect because she saw others doing it. It would now look VERY out of place, worse than last year.

    I’m still fairly new to management and some of these things feel obvious to me and therefore awkward to discuss with her, I’m not sure the best way to frame them or broach the subjects. I know I did her a disservice to not address these things last year when I first noticed them. I’m considering taking the approach that as a returning intern and a senior, it’s important that she model good behavior and dress in front of the new, younger interns. But any guidance is appreciated!

    1. Snark*

      I think it’d be a good idea, both as her manager and as someone serving as a mentor. Designers often get snotty about feedback from outside, and the more that gets nipped in the bud the better.

      “Brunhilde, I wanted to bring up something I noticed when we were working together at the end of last year, which is that you got irritated with design feedback from people outside the design group. That’s problematic, because we’re providing support for their projects, and their input is important and valid. Moving forward, I’d like you to be openminded to feedback from non-designers. That’s a good thing to keep in mind anywhere you work, too.”

      “Brunhilde, just so you know, after we reorganized this summer, our office has adopted a little more professional dress code than you got used to last year, and workout clothing is not an option anymore. It was pretty borderline before, but now it’s really not a good look.”

      1. AnonGraphicDesigner*

        Thank you! I really appreciate the scripts. It’s so helpful. Yes! Any designer that tells you that we can’t be snotty is in denial, ha. I do often see myself in her, just a little bit, but I figured out very quickly in my first job that my attitude was incorrect. It helped that I was the only designer and all my feedback was coming from people in other roles. That might not be the case with her so I definitely want to correct her.

    2. Murphy*

      I’d definitely give her a heads up on the clothing in a “Hey! Things have changed since you were here last!” kind of way.

      Anything else you have to mention, I think you can bring up in the context that you mentioned: That as a senior, a returning intern, someone about to enter the workforce, you expect more from her. She is there to learn after all.

    3. Graciosa*

      For any feedback, the earlier the better should be the rule. Waiting is not a strategy. It sounds like you’re hoping she’ll figure this out on your own. First, this rarely happens, and second, this is abdicating your responsibility as her manager.

      On your messaging, it should be crystal clear and very direct, but you don’t have to make it a big deal until she does. I’ve had to say very simply, “Hey, you know jeans are not allowed other than Fridays, don’t you?” and it got the job done. You let the person respond and take it from there.

      If you get pushback or whining, you deal with it (possibly both the clothing issue and the proper way to respond to direction from your manager). Trying to put the blame on her senior status also incorrectly implies that her clothing is okay for some people in the workplace (which other than the CEO, should not be the case!) and seems to be trying to excuse your failure to address it last year. You may have to own that, but do so if needed.

      A response to complaints about changing standards can be met with, “You’re right, I should have mentioned something about it then. I did you a disservice by not giving you clear feedback immediately, but I’m changing that now because giving you clear direction so that there are no misunderstandings is too important. And what I’m telling you clearly now is X.”

      The good news is that this is a low risk way to practice having potentially sensitive conversations. As you move up through the ranks, your jobs will require ever-increasing levels of this skill. I promise that it gets easier with practice! :-)

      Best wishes

      1. AnonGraphicDesigner*

        Thank you! I think this was the tough love that I needed to hear. The script for the potential push back is perfect. I think that’s what I’m most afraid of, now that you say it, that she might question why I’m suddenly picking on her (which is valid since I did drop the ball!).

    4. Language Lover*

      I hope I’m not responding to this too late but what you don’t realize is that I think you’re in a pretty decent position here since it’s your job to educate her about the working world AND it sounds like you’ve had a summer break between Year 1 of her internship and Year 2. You may have dropped the ball at the end of last year but it doesn’t matter since you have a new starting point.

      That break serves as a natural way to ‘reboot’ the internship since I’d imagine she may not be picking up old projects but rather diving into new ones. Even if that’s not the case, the break gives you a great excuse to hold a reorientation of sorts.

      One of the first things I’d do when she gets back in schedule a meeting consisting of about three parts. I’d spent the first part discussing how she spent her summer break as an ice breaker.

      I’d spend the second part reviewing her first year. I’d talk about projects she completed and things she did well. I’d ask her to evaluate her first year as well. In fact, I might email her to give her a notice that it’ll be part of the “planning for next year” process before she shows up so she can think about it. They’d be simple questions like “what do you think you did well/are most proud of?” “Is there anything you wish you could do better?” “Is there anything you wish you could have learned?” “Was there any time you were confused about something but felt too nervous to ask because you were afraid to look stupid?”

      The final part is where I’d say that you hope to use the second year of her internship as both an opportunity to increase her skills but also to continuing to focus on her professional polish. This is where I’d talk about projects I’d like her to do. I’d try and think of ways I could help her learn at least one or two skills she would have liked to learn if it’s possible. And then I’d say something like this “Over the summer, I’ve thought a lot about your first year. And while I’m pleased with your work overall, I saw some areas where you didn’t come across as professional as I think you can be. For instance, I got the sense that you were frustrated when receiving feedback from non-graphic designers…..” At which point you could empathize with how frustrating it could be as a fellow graphic designer but then give her the reasons why it’s not a good attitude to have and even cases where feedback from non-designers helped you see something differently. Then you could discuss how she may have felt she could just mimic the office wear of other workers but that there is a higher standard for interns since they don’t have the same amount of work collateral as a regular employee may have. Plus, there’s the office redesign. I’d let her know that she should feel free to ask any “is this cool in a work place?” type questions she wants with no judgment since that’s part of an internship. You can be her own personal ask a manager even with “it is here but not everywhere” type answers.

      Basically, I’d come up with a few bullet points of what I’d like her to get out of her final year. She could add to it if she’d like. If anything comes up that you didn’t expect, like how she started dressing more casually, I’d just nip it in the bud. If she rolls her eyes, point it out to her right then and there in case she doesn’t realize she’s doing it. And I’d considering doing a mid-year review and end-of-year review as well if it makes sense to look over the more long-term goals.

    5. HannahS*

      Well, I think you can send her a heads-up about workout clothing in a “Hey Jane, I just wanted to let you know that the dress-code expectations have been firmed up since you were last here, and it’s now business-casual.” But I’d wait to give the other feedback until you see the behaviour again. I think it’s important advice to give someone who’s learning professional norms but it’s not like she was running around cursing at people or hurling racial epithets. It would come off as a major over-flexing of managerial muscles to welcome someone back after a four month break with, “Last year, you sighed when given feedback and I noticed that you rolled your eyes once. That’s not acceptable.” Pretend it never happened, and if/when she does it again, give her the whole “Jane, it’s very important that you receive criticism from your coworkers with respect and an open mind, so no sighing or rolling eyes etc.”

    6. Observer*

      Bring up the clothing immediately, as things have changed and she needs to be informed. But, the behavior, wait and see. But the first time she does it, you need to deal with it.

  108. Eric*

    Has anyone heard of Lernsys?

    Apparently they’re an online teaching company. It sounds interesting, and I’m definitely up for a side gig to make more money. But there’s something that just sounds “off” about the emails they send. Shades of that “Make $8000 a month working from home part time!” type of scam language in them.

    Any first hand knowledge would be appreciated. Thanks.

    2. she was a fast machine*

      I’ve heard quite a bit about various money-from-home things but not of them. Are they on the BB?

    4. HannahS*

      I don’t know about Learnys, but I did do online English tutoring to students in China (about $20-$25 an hour, maybe 15 hours a week, 20 if you were devoted) and there were many legit companies.

  109. NoOneToday*

    Just hopping in here for moral support – I’m sending in an application this weekend for a job that would be a great next step for me based on the interesting juxtaposition of duties I’m currently doing. It feels like a stretch, but I think I’d bring a lot to the position and that I could do it well — with a longer than usual time to get up to speed based on some specific technical skills that I’d need to learn. The industry the job is in is often flexible with the “required skills” if people show a demonstrated ability to learn. I’ve got a cover letter that I think explains pretty well why they should consider me.

    I’m feeling a mix of “it doesn’t hurt to apply”, “I’m excited”, and “they’re going to throw my application in the trash because I’ve no formal training in X, even though I’ve done a decent amount of X self-taught.”

    So… cross your fingers for me?

    1. lost/floundering.*

      Sending moral support!

      Absolutely apply! Sounds like you’ve thought it through and are still excited for the opportunity, so it could be a great match. Asking a bit about their training materials/processes with the technical skills you want to grow might give you some insight into how they work with those they want to be flexible with.
      (my post after yours is full of questions about being thrust into a role you’re not ready for, so I’m resonating with your worry on this one – however, I’m noticing more and more people who don’t seem to have been perfectly manicured for their current positions, so I guess at some point you just have to jump in and do your best.)

      Be confident, enjoy your weekend, and lots of good luck!!

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      My rule is to make someone else tell you no.

      Make sure your resume/cover letter are *flawless*– have someone else look it over for those grammar/punctuation things. Skim back through Allison’s posts, and go out there and apply.

  110. lost/floundering.*

    Sorry guys – tried to make this short:

    MAIN QUESTION – Can a company decide to change your job overnight, without getting your explicit ok?

    What if you said you were interested, but didn’t verbally accept? In addition, the role you get “transferred” to has no job description, no parameters for success or failure, however **should be** (more on this below) a significant promotion in both responsibility and compensation? As opposed to your old role, you will be occasionally on-call, will eventually get take-home electronic equipment, and should receive almost a quarter-percent raise.

    Is it reasonable that they won’t have a sit-down conversation with you about transition from your old role and duties? Even if a lot of those processes are getting ignored in the transition, and that’s creating issues? What if you independently created those processes, *are proud of them*, know from 1 1/2 years of experience in the role that they work, and don’t want to see them trampled/rewritten without explanation of how they work? Is that really a crazy thing to ask, especially when “winging it” without you has proven to cause more problems?
    *I mention the pride not because I think the company should feel bad for me, but because it’s just another thing that stings. I was really looking forward to leaving this job and being able to point to significant advances I made in the role, like instituting a working inventory system. Now we’re ordering one thing at a time with no future outlook, and thus not getting discounts that we pay for as members of a “premium” supplies service. And etc.*

    One more – is it ever reasonable that the company refuses to talk about compensation until “maybe 2 weeks or 30 days out”, and then is not sure if they will back-pay for the promotion?
    What if the company knows your living situation is tough (living in a single sweltering room with a cat and SO, and sharing one vehicle)? I get they don’t “owe” me anything as far as that goes, but it seems like a huge red flag that no one will speak to me about the money/benefits side of things, and feels like a slap in the face on top of everything else.

    For reference, I work for a General Construction Contractor, for the last 1 1/2 years as a receptionist, and for the last 2 weeks have performed in these capacities (since I have no relevant title):
    *Administrative Assistant – this is my actual title, but I’m not in the admin dept, and because of the complexity of the client/projects I support, my duties do not mirror theirs at all. I am also not being trained by any of the admins.
    *Project Manager’s Assistant
    *Personal Assistant to a specific Account Manager

    1. Anony*

      Unless you have a contract, they can change your job description whenever they want. A reasonable employer would want you on board with the change, but essentially they can give your a “take it or leave it” type of offer. If you have sufficient capital, you can try to push for a discussion about changes in salary and benefits right away, but from your description of your living situation, it sounds like you would not be willing to risk this job.

      As far as the transition goes, they may not value a smooth transition as much as you do. If they need someone in the new role fast, that might outweigh the benefits of having you train someone to take over for you. Alternatively, they may not see the benefit in the new system as much as you do and are willing to let that go (even if it creates problems later).

      Not being willing to even talk about salary and compensation is not reasonable, but they are allowed to do it.

      1. Natalie*

        It is worth noting that in some states, radically changing the job, pay, working conditions, or hours can be considered “constructive dismissal” and would qualify you for unemployment, at least.

        1. lost/floundering.*

          Oh interesting.. any advice on how you might talk about “reasons for leaving” the last job?

      2. lost/floundering.*

        Thanks! I know the situation isn’t ideal; an impartial reality-check was much appreciated. And everything you say makes a lot of sense.

        So, I didn’t mention this for the sake of brevity, but… Probably important – after I’d taken the night to think about the offer, I was headed back into the office to turn it down. Yes, I had expressed interest (and that’s as far as it went), but the disorganization of the company in general really turned me off, and I didn’t think I wanted to continue trying to advance my career with them. That’s when I found out they’d already replaced me. One of the main reasons I was declining was this: new role has a 6 month “commitment” – of course not meaning I CAN’T leave, but I think the more they come to depend on me in my new role, the harder it will be to replace me. Not impossible to replace, but I think I’d be ruining the (previously) good references I had by failing horribly or leaving before the 6 months is up.

        Another problem is that the living situation wasn’t unplanned.. my SO and I ended our lease (on-time) and are planning to move to another part of the country. In fact, we’ve been planning for over a year…. we’ve been together for 10 years, were from different states, met out of those states, and now have decided where we want to live – the pacific NW (sorry Portland, stop being so awesome). Of course, no one at my work knows this, and can’t find out because my SO works with a husband of one of my bosses, and I don’t want to ruin his prospects for looking for work (unfortunately, I know the people involved, and that’s exactly what would happen).

        It extra sucks because this is my first post-grad job, and I am not trying to enter the field of my degree. So, I am worried about how this looks on my resume (I quit right after being promoted?) and what this will do to my references (I have anxiety issues, which no one at work knows about, and I know I have dropped a lot of balls lately in the transition).

        1. Infinity anon*

          It sucks that they replaced you without actually knowing you would take the other position. I thought that they simply changed the job description so your previous position ceased to exist. After you move, it will be relatively easy to explain why you quit by just citing the move. Promotion or not, you obviously can’t stay in that position if you are moving across the country! If you really don’t want to take the new job, you could consider signing up with a temp agency to fill the gap until the move. If you think you will be staying for the six months (or close to it), you may want to take the new position and remind yourself you will be leaving soon. I’m sorry you are in this position.

  111. Master Bean Counter*

    At my work place I’ve noticed a trend lately. I tend to come prepared to help and get things done in meetings. Which lately means I’m the only one bringing in my laptop to the meeting. I’m the only who’s laptop actually hooks up to the projector.
    There is one manager that has absolutely taken advantage of this. He’s also the manager I’ve had to ride the hardest and hold his hand while going through the budget. To the point I’ve done half his work because he’s either playing dumb about the process, or he really doesn’t get it. Either way, it’s a huge problem that will repeat next year.
    So yesterday I decided I’m done with this nonsense. The budget is done, hand holding is officially over. The manager in question called a meeting. I walked in with only my notebook and a pen into the meeting yesterday. He looked over at me and asked where my laptop was. I looked right back at him and said, “It’s your meeting, where’s yours?” The CEO and my boss both chimed in and backed me up. The meeting only got worse for him form there.
    Sometimes letting people fail can work out really well.

      1. Snark*

        Also….

        “Either way, it’s a huge problem that will repeat next year.”

        My feeling is that next year, you can safely assume that he will be much more self-sufficient and will not need your assistance and computer during meetings, as you provided him so many opportunities to learn this year.

        *evil chuckle*

        1. Master Bean Counter*

          I love your optimism. But we’ve done this two years in a row now and he acts like its a brand. new. thing.

          1. Snark*

            Oh, I’m sure he will. I just think he needs to be given more rope, not more help. >:)

            1. Pineapple Incident*

              Totes agree with this. People like this will take and take until you have nothing left and are doing 2 jobs. Better you’ve done this now, and he can tank himself.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      You didn’t mess around. Brilliant!

      Well done and enjoy your well-earned weekend.

  112. ningyo*

    Two part-time positions will soon become available in my department. Among potential candidates are (1) someone that department director recommended; and (2) a former part-time worker from another department. He no longer works there because the appointment was temporary.

    Should I check references for these two candidates? I am familiar with candidate #2 because he helped with some projects in our department and was impressed with his work.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Always check references!

      There are so many warnings on here that it’s best to check just to tick all of the boxes.

      1. Ningyo*

        Thanks for your response. I will treat these the same as other candidates to be on the safe side.

  113. PizzaParty*

    Question about references: I’m trying to leave my current job and I don’t feel comfortable alerting them to my job search just yet, so I don’t want to use anyone here as a reference.

    However, my last company, where I worked for 5 years and was frequently promoted, was highly dysfunctional. I thrived there because I actually wanted to work and often took on extra projects, did things that needed to be done without being asked, and just generally kept a lot of really important things afloat. I’m really proud of the work I did, and have many of my strongest achievements listed on my resume.

    But I’m worried about using any of my old supervisors as references – they all loved me and we worked great together, but they don’t know the full scope of work I’ve done. If a potential new employer asks about the metrics I’ve listed for some of my projects, it’s very likely my last boss will say he has no idea what they’re talking about.

    I have two coworkers who I think can speak more clearly about the actual work that I did, but even then, not the full scope since I intermingled with a lot of different departments doing little odds and ends they needed. Plus, I know it’ll look strange to not list any previous bosses.

    Not sure how to address this? Do I talk to the recruiter? My references? I’m afraid anything I tell them to help “remind them” of the work I did is going to come across as insulting.

    1. H.C.*

      I would say list the previous bosses and co-workers, especially the co-workers are senior to you.

      I have done this too and explained the reasoning during the interivew (my job roles/duties have changed considerably at OldCompany during my time there, coworkers W and X can provide better insight into specific duties Y and Z that I’ve done.)

  114. Passiflora*

    Any advice on how to ask for a raise when my salary is the market average?

    My department just went through a restructure and implemented a new strategy, and it looks as though my day-to-day workload will almost double within the year. I’m sort of floating on the org chart, though I directly report to someone two pay bands above me.

    All the new hires, almost everyone I work closely with and about 90% of the people whose work I sign off on are on the band above mine and make up to 10k more than I do.

    I’ve been here a year and my title is unique to the huge institution – though my position isn’t rare in general. I’d make the same anywhere else, but I have as much responsibility and education as everyone else here, and a good part of their work has to go by me before it goes public, yet they’re all making way more bank. I also have skills that happen to be unique to the department and have come in super handy in specific recent projects.

    Anyway, I want to be bumped up to the next pay band to officially be a peer of almost every single person I work alongside, but what should I do if/when I’m asked to look into market rates?

    1. NoodleMara*

      I think this is the case that you are being paid base level now, but your workload is doubling in the next year. In that case you should be paid more. I think that’s more the way you would want to frame, rather than just being at the same pay level as the people you work with. You can point out all the things you do in the second to last paragraph, that you have unique skills, that you’ve done an excellent job on recent projects, etc.

    2. Mephyle*

      Make a case for why you should be paid above market rates? (skills that happen to be unique to the department and have come in super handy in specific recent projects [and can be expected to add value to future projects, if applicable])

  115. bad w/ boundary setting*

    just had to send an awkward boundary-setting email and i hope it wasn’t rude or anything?

    a coworker who’s a peer keeps including me in emails where she’s asking supervisors for work b/c she doesn’t have enough, but i DO have enough. it’s happened 3-5 times. today she sent one. i replied to her privately and said: “Jane, I appreciate the sentiment but I am managing my own workload and I don’t need to be cc’d on emails requesting work unless I, [Supervisor A], or [Supervisor B] requests it. Thank you.” she replied apologizing & saying she’ll stop.

    was that email okay? am i good??

      1. bad w/ boundary setting*

        no, she emailed Supervisor A, cc me, basically saying (I’m paraphrasing, she was polite) “Hi Supervisor, I have nothing to do right now, do you have any projects for me?”

        but I have a bunch of stuff I’m working on right now, so it seemed like she assumed I was in the same boat as her and also needed work. but the point being, even if I *do* need work, I can handle that on my own.

        2. Anony*

          Do you have work that you can off-load to her? Even if she was assuming that you were in a similar boat, it seems like offering her some of the work may be a win-win if you are overloaded.

          1. bad w/ boundary setting*

            i should have clarified – we are paralegals who share 1 big case (so we work together on that) but each have a few other cases that don’t overlap. so i cannot offload work from my cases onto her, if that makes sense. i definitely would if i could though :) thank you!

    2. Kim Possible*

      I think your email sounds perfectly fine. It needed to be addressed, and it sounds like you addressed it in a respectful manner.

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      I’d say that that was a perfectly professional email. She apologised. Said she’d stop. If she does it again, send her another private email that reiterates the point you’ve already made.

      I’m not sure why she was including you in the first place. Weird.

      But you’re good.

  116. Walruss*

    I’m currently unemployed – job searching, but unemployed – and I think I’m going to have to take a retail job in the meantime to make ends meet and to help get myself back on a schedule. Will this be a huge red flag for future career employers? I’m only 3 years into my career and am out of a job because a contract ended earlier than I expected, but the job market in my field is just not moving very quickly right now. Is it better to have an interim retail job, or is it going to be a huge deterrent for hiring?

    1. Lumen*

      If they’re a decent employer, no. A LOT of people work retail for intermittent income when they’re between jobs, and you can learn a lot from those experiences that you can leverage in interviews.

      Plus: you’re out of work. At the end of the day, having income is more important than a potential future employer’s “ew, retail” snobbery.

    2. Murphy*

      It’s going to depend on the organization. I had employment not in my field (not exactly retail, but not far off) for a while. My current workplace did not care at all, and focused on my relevant experience. But I had a phone interview while I was looking where the interviewer point blank asked me “Why are you working in [job] instead of in [field of study]?” and was not at all moved by the need to eat and keep a roof over my head. (I also think she only called me as a courtesy because I was referred by an employee, because she seemed unimpressed with me before the interview even started.)

    3. Graciosa*

      Retail is fine at this point in your career. It’s a good answer to the question of what you’ve been doing since your job ended, and everyone understands it’s a transitory situation.

      At top executive levels, you are expected to have saved enough or have sufficient other assets not to have to take a retail job in between executive positions.

      Mid-career, either works, but I have heard positive reactions to candidates sharing that they had been financially prudent enough to not have to worry about bills just yet as they were searching for a job that was a really good fit for the next stage of your career. You might think about this as you move up (I know 3 years out is very early), not just because having savings is always a good idea but also because it can preserve your options after a layoff.

      But I assure you no hiring manager I work with would blink at this.

      Best wishes

    4. JulieBulie*

      I took two (very brief) interim jobs during a year-long unemployment. I left them out of the “work history” section of my resume (whatever I called that section), but did include them as single-line items in a section called “unrelated experience.” So my resume showed a year-long gap, but the experience was still reflected in a short list of other types of jobs I’d had, to show that I also knew something about retail, commission sales, broadcasting, etc. and wasn’t totally idle in between jobs.

  117. she was a fast machine*

    My SO recently got an internship in an engineering department at our city, and it’s been going great for him; he’s bonded with the staff there and his boss(senior engineer in his 50s) loves him and has even offered to provide connections to my SO for when he graduates. Things went so well that he got pranked last week by a couple of co-workers(we’re talking small stuff, like hiding his hard hat), nothing too big, not that uncommon in a laid back office like this one. Well. He went out and bought some of that “fart in a spray” stuff and took it to work with him and sprayed it in the prankster’s area (thankfully not an office, but more open). Naturally, everyone was wondering where it was coming from and they even called maintenance to have a look at the A/C. Maintenance arrived and he gleefully texts me that nobody has any idea what’s causing it. I hadn’t known his plan until now, and, being a regular reader of AAM, I see a million red flags waving in my vision and promptly warn him to fess up and hope they don’t fire him for wasting maintenance’s time/resources. Suddenly he is very sober and realizes his error, and goes to his boss. Who promptly laughs and tells him not to tell anyone about it so they can prank another co-worker the same way.

    I am completely agog at the whole chain of events; the immaturity from my SO I’m not surprised by, as he’s not super good with social cues and has a strong need to do better than everyone else, but the letting maintenance be called, and then his boss laughing with him just made my jaw drop. Maybe it’s because I’m in a different type of office setting, but I would imagine city engineering being pretty conservative…and yet.

    I just wanted to share with everyone and kinda get a feel for if it’s really as…surprising, I guess, as I think it is?

    1. LCL*

      It’s only surprising to you because you are unfamiliar with city engineers. The whole thing sounds normal to me. (Deliberately not saying anything about maturity, you asked was it normal…)

      1. she was a fast machine*

        That does make me feel a lot better; I’m planning on being an engineer but I’m not at the same stage as my SO yet so I don’t have much actual experience with real life engineers in any capacity. I would expect them to be rather typical of male-dominated workforces, but I guess I was expecting more law office and less start-up.

        Or I’m just very young and over-concerned.

    2. Catalin*

      Bwahahahahaha that’s a great story.
      Was SO irresponsible and childish? Yes!
      Should he EVER do it again? NO! Beyond the whoopy-cushion issues, sprays like that can really trigger serious health symptoms (with or without asthma). It’s all fun and games until someone pukes or can’t breathe.

      1. she was a fast machine*

        Yes! That was exactly my thought when he told me. At my last job I had a lady like that who could not breathe if people used too strong perfumes, so I can’t imagine how she’d suffer in a situation like that.

  118. Interviewee*

    Happy Friday, All. Has anyone ever done a Video Interview? if so, about how much time are you given to answer each question? and How should I answer the “tell us about your work experience” question? (incidentally, I have an extensive administrative assistant background). Thanks

    1. LDP*

      I had an interview to work for an airline a while back that was a video interview. For the program I used, I know it gave you different time limits for different questions. It also gave you a few practice rounds to get used to looking at the camera the right way, and finding the right volume/pitch for your voice. So, hopefully yours gives you that opportunity!

      For the “work experience” question, try coming up with an “elevator pitch”, summing up what you want to highlight of your experience that you could convey in about a minute or less.

      And this may not be relevant, but I had a mentor recently tell me an interview strategy that I LOVE, and I have to share! It’s called the “shark cage”. The idea is that you come up with four or five points that you want to highlight in the interview, and no matter what question they ask, make sure to tie it back to one of those points. Because as long as you stay within the cage, you’ll be safe!

  119. Samantha*

    I left a company a few years back but still keep in touch with some of my coworkers or people I worked very closely with. One of those ex-colleagues is a good friend-I always admired her work ethic. She’s a really dedicated and hard worker and she got promoted two years ago and we often meet for lunch now and then and keep in touch on Facebook. I met her last summer and she raved about the assistant she just hired. I just met with her this month-how things have changed.

    The assistant appears to be slacking, comes in late, and has been venting a lot to her boss, my friend, despite my boss trying to address boundaries. My friend has talked to her about her behavior here and there, though infrequent and in an informal kind of way, but is now beginning to keep notes on the worker and will share them with her at the end of year evaluation. I trust her judgement but she is a new manager…having been both an assistant and manager, I know how it seems like things are going fine and then BAM. You’re hit with things in your evaluation that you didn’t expect and were never addressed in a direct manner. I don’t think there should be many surprises in a yearly eval, but that’s just me and that’s what I’ve gained reading AAM and many of the commenter feedback. I tried talking with her, saying it is her decision but that some of the things that she hasn’t mentioned to the assistant and is now writing down probably should be discussed now. If anything, it will make her case stronger in the eval if the worker was told these things and they didn’t improve. She states she doesn’t want to tell her now as the worker is dealing with health issues and she has been told to handle her with kid gloves. Not sure what advice I can give to my friend but I just feel like if I was a manager, I would want to be able to address this in a way that seems helpful. From what I heard, I feel like this has the possibility to backfire terribly!

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think it’ll backfire terribly, but I’m with you that it’s not likely go great, either. Your friend doesn’t seem to see any middle ground between “infrequent and formal” and cumulative documentation for an end of year evaluation. If it’s important enough to write it down, it’s important enough to talk to your employee before waiting for five months to elapse. I think your friend hasn’t grasped that as a manager it is her obligation to create formal opportunities to share feedback; instead she’s waiting for a default structure to make her something in five months that she should do now. So probably there will be a parting of the ways not long after that and they will both be relieved.

      I don’t think you can change your friend, since she seems pretty set on this course, but you could always say “As a new manager I find the Ask a Manager blog really helpful in framing my thinking–let me send you the link.”

    2. Mephyle*

      If the assistant is dealing with health issues, the surprise hit at evaluation time could be even more traumatic for her because of that. Is there a way you can frame it to your friend that can lead her to understand this?
      Also, possibly the friend could consider picking one major problem and telling her assistant that normally she would ask her to X but she is giving her a little bit of leeway on this because of her issues; however when the issue resolves/lets up, she expects to see more X instead of Y.

  120. Ayla*

    I’m moving into a more technical field and meeting with a recruiter for the first time. What should I expect for a first conversation over coffee? What should I ask about? Anything I should know about going through recruiters?

  121. Dee-Nice*

    How do you deal with being a +1 in your big-shot partner’s work life?

    My spouse is a pretty big deal in his industry. When he was on his way up, sometimes he’d get together with peers in a friendly way, and I would occasionally join him, but found out quickly that the industry talk made it a really boring time for outsiders. Then, as he climbed the ranks, I stopped making new friends in his business because of one situation where he was very close to having to fire someone we had interacted with socially, and I didn’t want to ever have to deal with that again. I also have a very non-flashy personality (I’m interesting, but you have to get to know me a bit) and his industry is full of very flashy, ambitious people, and it’s overwhelming to be with all of them sometimes, because you can feel the thirst in the room. Yeah, that’s judge-y of me, I know, but I hate the feeling that people are trying to get to know me not for myself, but because I’m “OMG, Ay-Ay-Ron’s wife!”

    These days, he gets invited to events where spouses are welcome, and though he knows I hate that stuff and it’s never seemed to bother him, from things he says it seems like my absence is periodically conspicuous. I’m not going to change and I don’t think he cares if I do, so it’s not much of an issue, but every once in a while for one reason or another I wonder if I SHOULD be “wife-ing” more for him in terms of being his +1 at Work Things.

    Not looking for advice so much as corroborating experiences, opinions, etc. Is this all in my head or have other people experienced this?

    1. Lumen*

      I’ve experienced this and it’s silly. When I didn’t “wife” conspicuously enough, people commented, but they were the same sort of comments you might get from idiots in the break room who want to mention how fatty your lunch is. It didn’t impact my then-husband’s career or work relationships at all, perhaps because he wasn’t concerned with the people who are stuck in the 1950s.

      There will apparently always be people, of all ages, who watch Mad Men and think “yeah! that’s how it should be!” but, uh… yeah. This shouldn’t matter. You’re a person, not The Wife.

    2. beanie beans*

      I have a friend who was in a similar situation and they ended up agreeing to some limits or “times when it would be nice to have you there.” Like I’ll go once a month, or only for super-important-thing, or events that won’t involve xyz things that make me crazy. Seems totally reasonable to say no as often as you want. But also “should” is more between you and him.

    3. Halls of Montezuma*

      If he’s happy and you’re happy, you’re good. There are a few places still where it’s important ( though I am the plus one and I suck at it).

      My experience is all DoD, where the CO’s spouse is expected to be present, involved, welcoming, approachable, etc because she’s got to make a bunch of people stuck somewhere DoD sent them feel like a close knit community who can help each other through a deployment. Fortunately, Mr. Montezuma and I are on the acquisition side, where this is not really a thing and it’s just us not being terribly traditional when I skip an event.

  122. 1.0*

    I’m in my first job after college and am thinking of moving on. I’ve had 2 managers here, who are still managing me, and I am not comfortable asking for references from profs due to untreated depression really screwing me in college.

    In my situation, how would you get references at all? I’m good at my job and committed, but I’m a consultant and my hours make it difficult to volunteer or any other activity that could reasonably get me a reference.

  123. New manager*

    I’m a new manager and one of my direct reports is moving from very prescriptive job duties to a position with much more freedom in terms of setting priorities and due dates and with work much broader and less defined in scope. She’s struggling a bit with that open endedness but is capable of the work. Any tips on how I can help her with this transition?

    1. fposte*

      Regular check-ins, like weekly 1 to 1s, with her setting out goals for the subsequent time period? Use of Trello or other workflow apps to track the various projects? Extensive calendaring about project phases and mid-point deadlines?

    2. Ashie*

      Maybe check in regularly and ask her to define her immediate projects and tell you what she thinks her goals & deadlines should be. You can tweak as necessary but she still gets the deadlines like she’s used to but she’s getting used to setting them for herself and changing her way of thinking.

  124. John*

    Allison, it’s your site and you’re obviously free to moderate it however you like. But if you are going to remove comments with no explanation because they disagree with your niece, at least give a warning about it. It’s very disappointing to spend the time composing a post only to see it disappear a half hour later for no apparent reason.

    1. Graciosa*

      I think the “warning” Alison gives is in the site guidelines for commenting. If she sent individual messages or explanations to every individual who ignored them, we would probably get many fewer letters.

      If this really troubles you, you might consider composing your comments in another application so you can save them and then copy and paste. Then if you have questions, you can compare your comment to the guidelines yourself to help you identify the issue. If that fails, you could try emailing it to her to ask for further guidance.

      For what it’s worth, I have never seen her delete a comment simply for disagreeing with her (which I have done myself). I have seen her delete comments on either side of a position that were rude, overly harsh in tone, inappropriately critical of the letter writer or other commentators, or strayed off topic (for example, today she is asking that comments are kept to the question asked on cramps rather than straying into medical advice on how to treat them).

      If you can avoid the issues she identifies in her guidelines, you should have no trouble politely expressing a contrary viewpoint.

      1. fposte*

        I think also comments will get deleted when they’re a child comment of something that violates guidelines, and it’s possible that that commenter won’t connect a note from Alison on the parent comment with their own post. I have digression issues and will lose a comment when it was in a deleted off-topic string sometimes. Which, as you say, is a clear breach of guidelines so it’s perfectly appropriate–it just sometimes takes me a minute to connect the upthread deletion with my comment.

      2. Ask a Manager* Post author

        Yes, this. And as I noted in the comments on that niece post (which John is talking about), she was reading those, and so I was pretty committed to people talking about her with kindness and respect.

        1. Bibliovore*

          And as always, I appreciate your insistence that all original posters and commenters be treated with kindness and respect.

  125. SL #2*

    My performance review is next week! I am considerably less nervous about it this year than I was last year (my first year on the job), but… I made a mistake recently that will cost us about $4k. My boss was visibly frustrated with me when I let her know, and we are still dealing with some of the (external) consequences from my mistake.

    Between when it happened and now (2 months) I’ve been more careful about checking in with her before committing to certain things. But if it comes up in our review, I’m trying to formulate a script, so I’ll be prepared to respond with something that both acknowledges the mistake I made and what I’m doing to prevent it from happening again. Any thoughts or advice?

  126. Blue Anne*

    I seem to be having a lot of trouble with colleagues talking over me and saying exactly what I was going to say, while I’m in conversation with them. For example, I was talking to my boss and trying to say that I’ve learned a lot about a software conversion, and I’ll print up the conversion guide and also write up my own notes to go along with it for everyone – but before I could get past the part about printing up the guide, he talked over me to say he wants me to also write up my own notes for everyone. Or a colleague is asking me about a discrepancy on a reconciliation I did, and while explain where the notes are and what account I think it should be charged to, she talks over me to say that this type of thing should be charged to exactly the account I was going to say.

    It’s happened enough in the last couple of days that I’m starting to think it must be me, not them, but it’s immensely frustrating. I’m not a slow talker or anything, and I’ve never had this problem before. I’m not the “20 minutes to answer a yes/no question” type – some of the colleagues who are doing this are, though. It sucks to be interrupted, and I also feel like I’m not getting any credit for actually knowing these things or already having these ideas. From my boss’ point of view in that conversation, he told me to do something I hadn’t thought of. But I was already planning to do it anyway!

    Does anyone have any advice? I’ve tried waiting until they are done talking, saying “What I was saying was,” and putting the same thing in slightly different words to try to convey that I was already going there, but I feel like that can only be done a few times.

    1. fposte*

      What you can do with your boss or senior people will depend a bit on your relationship, but otherwise I wouldn’t wait until they were done talking–I wouldn’t even falter with what I was saying and just talk right through ’em. Then when you’re done you can say “Did you have a question?”

      We’ve discussed this on AAM a few times; some people think interrupting is the rudest, most boundary stomping thing ever and some people think that’s the sign of a lively and engaged conversation. Since it hasn’t been a thing for you before, it’s probably not your manner but that you’ve stepped into an interrupting culture. That’s also one of the most useful ways to frame it if you do want to take it up with somebody senior–“I know this is a thing people do around here but it tends to throw me; is there a way I can alert you that I’ve got more stuff to say and am trying to finish?”

      1. Lily Rowan*

        In my experience with cross-talk cultures, as soon as the person started describing the thing I was about to say, I would say, “Yes, exactly! What I’m planning is ….” right over them.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, that’s a good one (and I love the phrase “cross-talk culture”–if it’s yours, it’s brilliant). Think the “Yes, and” of improv–stopping and waiting will grind things to a halt, but this keeps the flow going while making your point.

        2. Blue Anne*

          This is good! I’ll try that.

          Thank you both for pointing out cross-talk culture. Now that it’s been pointed out I realize that it’s a Thing I’ve dealt with before. I’m in the “this is incredibly rude” camp – but my ex-husband’s family were all cross-talkers and it was just how they functioned. Gotta get out of my comfort zone, I guess.

        3. Ann O.*

          Yes, this is perfect advice. I grew up in cross-talk culture and am very comfortable with it. What you do is exactly what cross-talkers want. The engagement comes from layering onto each other’s ideas.

          I love cross-talk because it does feel high engagement to me. I feel like I’m collaboratively building something with the other people I talk to. I think I’ve been very lucky not to have been perceived as rude in my work life because it’s only through AAM that I’ve understood high engagement as a cultural communication style that can conflict with a high consideration cultural communication style. I’m not sure I could adapt if I needed to because I’m middle aged, but at least I would understand what’s going on!

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Do you need credit? Does it matter?

      Don’t get me wrong – it sounds annoying. But if all you need is to establish that you are all on the same page, do you really need to worry about who said the words?

      1. Blue Anne*

        It’s not exactly that I need the credit… it’s more that I don’t want to seem like an idiot. It’s happening often enough and the things are basic enough (I mean, these are things where both of us are on exactly the same page) that I don’t want my colleagues to get the impression they’re always suggesting these things I wouldn’t have thought of.

        It’s as though I’m trying to say what temperature I’m going to bake the teapot handles at, and my boss is talking over me to tell me to bake the handles. I know the teapot handles can’t be soft clay, I promise!

        1. fposte*

          If it helps to hear this viewpoint–as a manager I’m often running through my mental list to my staff, and it’s really not about assuming that they haven’t done it or wouldn’t think about it, it’s just about getting to the check-it-off-the-list stage.

    3. Eppie*

      It helps me, as a listener, to hear the conclusion first. That might help here. So in the example about the reconciliation discrepancy above – if you tell me what account you think it should be charge to first, then your reasoning and documentation – it helps me listen better and also cuts off opportunities for interrupting.

    4. Anonymous Prostate*

      Can you re-phrase your words so that the ‘punchline’ is in the first sentence or two? Maybe it’s not possible – but (for instance) in the two examples above, if you had started with “I’m printing up my notes on conversion” or “I charged that reconciliation to account XYZ”, those interrupters might have been left without anything to say. Heh – if you had a printed copy of your notes with you, it would have been sweet to hand them to that fellow, saying “Way ahead of you, Chuck.” (Actually, maybe that’s not a good thing to say).

      I don’t mean “learn to be psychic”. But if you’re discussing a topic with people, there are probably 2 or 3 Important Facts associated with it: stuff like “account number” and/or “when will it be done?” and/or “how much will it cost?” The trick is to try to mention these in the first sentence or two or three.

      This suggestion comes from experience: I would often discuss a topic as if it were a joke: there was a wind-up, and then a punchline. I wasn’t trying to be funny – but I would find myself using that kind of structure, and it didn’t work well. So I made a conscious decision to try to converse with more of a “news reporter” style, and lead with the Who, What, When, Where, and How. I’m far from perfect at it – but it seems to help.

  127. Ashie*

    I was just part of a conference call to discuss the future of our industry and I’m not feeling great about it. I didn’t agree with the rest of the group and I feel like I just came off as that annoying person that nobody wants to hear from.

  128. Migraine Girl*

    Do you guys ever wonder who got the job you applied for, and why? I do. And I had this (prob ridiculous) idea of a blog called Why They Got The Job, where I would interview managers/recruiters and winning candidates after they were hired for popular positions (in tech startups) to understand what made them stand out (or be perceived as the best fit). How bad is this idea ? :)

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I think the only problem you’ll run into is they may want to stay mum about why they hired the candidate they did. They may not want to give away too much information… or potentially open themselves up to an unwarranted lawsuit.

    2. fposte*

      I love stories like this, so I would probably read that blog! The one thing I wonder about, though, is that often the person in the job isn’t the one who knows why they got it. What might be cool is to do a tandem interview with the person and somebody involved in their hiring to get both dimensions. It would be fascinating to have, for instance, the hired person say “I think it was my strong data background” and the hirer say “She was absolutely fearless in the face of people who scared every other candidate.”

      1. fposte*

        Oh, wow, did I completely miss that that was your main point! I’m going to blame it on an eye doctor appointment this morning–sorry!

    3. Alex*

      Depending on the industry or organization, it can be pretty easy to look up the staff list or contact information after the fact. I’ve looked up people on LinkedIn who got jobs I applied for. It can be enlightening to see their experiences/credentials, but it can also make you feel bad about yourself.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Looking on LinkedIn is a good idea but you still aren’t going to have the whole picture.

        I think this blog is the kind of thing people would be keen to read but not to be in.

    4. Not Penny*

      I listened to a podcast today where the presenter interviewed people she had formerly dated to ask why they stopped. I was on my way back from an interview and it made me think of just what you’ve suggested!

  129. Me - Blargh*

    Adding Blargh to my semi-anon tag so I can search it easier later, LOL. Also because blargh.

    Last week I mentioned I had an interview on Monday for a dead-end job with a payroll company; it really was a dead end. I would learn nothing new, the hiring manager said they sometimes gave that person payrolls to process (oh hell to the no), and the only way to get off the front desk is to become an account rep. I figured that last, but still. Plus, it wasn’t even 40 hours because the owner valued “work-life balance” and that to make up to 40 hours they did let people take 30-minute lunches. Great. Exactly what I wanted–to work non-stop all week just to make enough hours to live on. For a year, because no paid vacation until then. I got rejected via email the next day, but whatever.

    The police agency job I applied for closed on the 17th. So I got it in on time. I’m trying not to think about it because there has been NOTHING to apply to this week. The only contract jobs I can do (that don’t require six million software certifications) don’t pay anything. I’m trying to stay positive, but it’s getting harder and harder.

    2. Kiwi*

      You do realise your user name’s a link to your blog and your photo shows up beside it? It’s not very anon at all!
      And good luck with your job hunt, I keep checking every week and sending good wishes your way.

      1. Me - Blargh*

        Yes, I’m aware of that! I just don’t want it to be searchable under my name but you all know it’s me anyway. Thanks for the good wishes. It’s just that where I am, there aren’t many good jobs available that I can do.

  130. Oolb*

    So I work in a teapot laboratory and our work is often done in pairs. I frequently end up paired with a woman named Jane who literally no one on my team can stand. Jane is lazy, whiny, and bossy all at once. My team leader always schedules me with Jane because she won’t schedule herself or her friends to be paired with Jane.

    After being paired with Jane for 4 days in a row, I am at my wit’s end! I am honestly afraid I’m going to loose my cool and end up yelling at her. Yesterday her behavior was so disruptive to my workflow that I ended up having to stay late to finish up. I was so angry driving home that my hands were shaking. I’m going to talk to our boss on Monday when he comes back to the office, but I’m not totally sure what to say.

  131. Caledonia*

    I passed my degree! I can now officially use the letters Caledonia, BA (Hons) Hum(anities) after my name!

    So happy although a long wait until my official graduation ceremony in the autumn.

    1. Ashie*

      Congrats! My dad told me when I graduated, no matter what happens for the rest of your life, from here on out you will always be a college graduate. =)

  132. Nels*

    I have ADHD, and I recently (6 months ago) told my boss that I have it after a feedback meeting during which she mentioned (among an otherwise glowing review) that I occasionally interrupt people in meetings and that some people could be offended by that. I thanked her for the feedback and mentioned I was aware that I do that sometimes, that I know it comes across as disrespectful, and that it’s something I struggle with because I have ADHD. I then said that I don’t think that ADHD an excuse, though, and let her know what strategies I use to try and manage it (for example, I count to three after someone appears to be done talking in meetings to be sure they aren’t simply pausing). I mentioned that I would do my best to make sure I’m even more careful about it in the future.

    But since then she’s turned into what I can only describe as my self-taught ADHD coach. Shortly after I told her I had it, she told me she has been doing a lot of research on ADHD online and that I was right, people with ADHD do accidentally interrupt people a lot. And since then she seems to be “coaching” me on every little thing–it feels like she no longer believes I have any social/professional skills. For example, just this morning I sent her an email which was short and to the point (i.e., “please call me when you get the chance, I have information on X”), and she just called me in for an hour long meeting about how it’s fine to send her an email that’s informal and direct, but that I can’t do that to customers. I’ve NEVER sent anything less than a formal email to customers. I asked if she was bothered by my emails to customers (she is always cc’d on them) and she said no, it hasn’t been a problem yet but just wanted to be sure that it wasn’t in the future. Another example: after a meeting, she called me into her office to say that sometimes I talk too fast in meetings and she’s not sure everyone can understand. I said I’d keep it in mind to slow down in the future. I never got the impression that people were having a hard time following me in the meeting (I did not say that to her, though), but have made it a point to try and speak more slowly.

    I’ve been doing this job for 4 years, and it’s only in the past 6 months (since I’ve told her I had ADHD) that I’ve received all this “coaching.” I was never trying to hide my ADHD, it just had never really come up before until she mentioned the interrupting. But all this makes me feel like she doesn’t think very much of me anymore (especially since she diagnosed Trump with ADHD when he came up in an office lunch conversation, and neither she nor I care for him). I just feel like I’m suddenly under a microscope and that she no longer thinks that I can handle anything, even though I’ve received glowing performance reviews in all of my years here. Can I push back on this at all? I mean, I struggle a little bit with self-confidence with ADHD as it is, and this really isn’t helping.

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      Push back.

      Alison has great advice about pushing back but I’m not sure what it would be filed under. If you search for ‘work mom’ or something similar that might help. I remember reading something about a woman who had boundaries issue with an older co-worker who friended her mum on Facebook and complained about her being rude when she tried to assert her boundaries but I can’t find it. There’s a good script there and in the comments.

      In your case, any time she starts talking about you ADHD, cut her off.

      “Oh, thanks, but I have it under control.”

      “You don’t need to worry about that. I’ve got it covered.”

      “It’s not necessary for you to do that. I’m on top of it.”

      Make it very clear that you don’t need her help and you’ve got it under control. If she keeps pushing, change tactics and tell her outright that it makes you uncomfortable (difficult, I know). If you have a HR department, then go there if it continues.

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with this. Just know that she’s the one being rude and you reasserting boundaries in a response to that rudeness isn’t rude.

      Remember that you have four years of a solid work history to fall back on and these last six months are just a blip on the radar.

      Good luck!

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I am so sorry you are dealing with this!

      Foreign Octopus’s advice is superb.

  133. Jinx*

    Any advice for providing feedback to an employee who doesn’t seem to retain feedback well?

    In her mid-year performance review last week, one of my direct reports asked for “more detailed feedback.” I am very much an ‘in the moment’ sort of feedback-giver (i.e., when I hear her on the phone describing something incorrectly, I speak with her about it once she’s done with the call, as just one example), and when I asked her about this, she said she does appreciate the in the moment feedback, but also would like to be able to review them during her one-on-ones every other week, along with reviewing questions she might have had during that time. And she asks A LOT of questions, a lot of which fall into a category of “I think I know the answer to this but have to have reassurance that it is completely correct before doing ANYTHING”. I have no problems being reassuring that she does indeed know the answer she’s looking for if that is the case, but in instances where she doesn’t actually know, the solutions don’t seem to stick – she doesn’t write anything down to remind herself of the next steps to be taken (though I’ve asked her to do so before), and if she doesn’t immediately go and do the thing I told her to do, she forgets and then we have the same conversation again two hours later or even the next day.

    What this is turning out to mean though is that I am creating an ongoing list of things we’ve discussed to revisit during the one-on-one (a list that seems to be growing on a daily basis), but I really don’t see this as a viable long-term solution – jotting down these sorts of things every time it happens is not always going to be possible, not to mention taking time away from the things that are being newly-delegated to me. I’d really like to be able to find a way to have her take on some of the responsibility for keeping track of feedback-related things, since this is also for her benefit, but I’m not entirely certain how to go about this.

    Thoughts and advice would be greatly appreciated!

      1. Kim Possible*

        Jinx mentioned that she’s asked her to write down her corrections, but she doesn’t do it (which is a problem in itself that she’s explicitly not doing what she’s told).

        I agree with Liz that her writing it down in the moment is the best solution. That way, she can reference her notes the next time she has a similar question. If she writes down your correction and still asks the same question, I would tell her to start by looking back at her notes before having you clarify. And, if need be, you could tell her that you have no problem addressing her questions if she’s demonstrated that she’s already referenced her notes and still needs assistance.

        1. fposte*

          Oh, I missed that having her write it down was already requested. Wow, I should probably wait until my eyes undilate to read today.

          In that case, I think you can push back–this is somebody who’s trying to get you to compensate for a not-tiny performance deficit. I also think it’s worth having a conversation about what happens to her writing it down–does she think you meant it was optional, does she get distracted, what’s her take on why this doesn’t happen? I do think there’s a possibility that this is reassurance-seeking and/or a variant of the non-problem-solver who’d rather ask the person than figure out how to load the printer paper; neither of those, however, are sufficient reason to take your time before hers, so I think going a little deeper, putting the guidelines down more firmly, and saying explicitly that in-person feedback isn’t appropriate when there’s a more efficient way for her to guide herself on regular stuff, so she does need to adapt to that.

          1. Jinx*

            There is a lot of reassurance-seeking in many of her questions – she’s shown a distinct lack of confidence in herself and her knowledge/ability to handle some of these things – which I think is probably part of the problem with the recurring questions.

            Thanks for all of your very solid advice! I will definitely be putting it into practice.

            1. TL -*

              I had a trainee that didn’t write things down and I got to the point where if I said something instructive, I would follow it with, “you need to be writing this down.” And if he asked me the same question twice (or 6 times), I would ask him to check his notes.
              It helped somewhat. I would suggest something similar.

          2. Kathenus*

            Agree with fposte, and suggest being very clear that you are instructing her to write things down, not asking her to. And if you think it would help, after your conversations tell her to write down her corrections and email the information to you so you can confirm that she hit all of the areas that were discussed.

    2. fposte*

      I think the redirection you’re talking about is absolutely appropriate. First off, I think you can talk about this more broadly–“I’m happy to provide feedback; it’s my job. But one of my goals, Jane, is to have you grow in your responsibility and confidence for guiding yourself in areas we’ve discussed and move away from relying on me.” Then perhaps you can make listing the actionable items *her* task and not yours, and instruct her to use those as an ongoing checklist; at your 1-1s she can discuss how she’s been dealing with these noted challeges. This is the behavioral version of giving people who won’t problem-solve steps they’re supposed to follow before they come to you.

    3. Susan*

      Would it be feasible for you to give her the feedback by e-mail rather than verbally? She may retain the information better by reading it, and she could also keep the e-mails (maybe put them in a designated folder) for review later.

    4. Anony*

      Maybe the main feedback she needs is that you need her to be more independent and not rely on you as much for guidance and that a part of that is keeping track of and retaining the feedback you give her.

      1. Snark*

        Was just going to say. I think the fact that she’s not being accountable for her own feedback is itself a bit of feedback, and paints a picture of someone who is overly reliant on specific, in the moment guidance and hand-holding.

        1. Jinx*

          “reliant on specific, in the moment guidance and hand-holding.”

          You hit the nail on the head – as I mentioned above to fposte, she’s shown a definite lack of confidence that I think is contributing to this, so that’s something else to work on as well.

          Thank you so much!

          1. Toph*

            I think at a certain point also you can just push back directly on the request for more feedback. So, say you corrected something in the moment, and then she wants to talk about it more in the weekly meeting, and then maybe it comes up again the following week, you may get into “Jane, we went over this last week. When I provide this feedback to you, I need you to retain that. Do you understand?” or maybe not quite that harsh depending on the thing, but clearly drawing a line that she does not get to ask you the same question over and over and over. You explain, and then the responsibility is on her.

  134. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Contemplating moving from a “super serious” teapot quasi-legal policy rule-type arena to a “style design fashion artsy” teapot arena work-wise. I’m dreaming of a place I can creatively use my editing skills–not in a suit-wearing serious place, but in a free-flowing creative pinterest-y office. (Or maybe it’s just travel wanderlust rerouting itself since I haven’t had a vacation in forever X/

    Has anybody ever left a super serious workplace for a creative artsy studio one?

  135. Science!*

    I had an interesting work social issue pop up and I was hoping to get some feedback about how I handled it and how to handle it in the future.

    My department has three big bosses: Anna, Bob and Cathy. I am a direct report to Bob, Bob and Anna are good friends so our two groups often do out of office social events together (we combine our christmas parties, we share office and lab space, frequent collaborations). This week someone decided to organize a happy hour last minute to start at 4:30pm. Bob couldn’t make it but Anna came. I went at the start but I have two small children so I couldn’t stay late. Normally I bring cash to these events because it’s easier to just throw a $10 bill on the table when I leave, but this time I forgot and I felt weird about charging a $4 beer. Anna was sitting next to me and told me that she planned on throwing in $20 no matter what but she was sure her 2 beers would be much less than $20 so she’d cover my beer as well. I said I’d pay her back or buy her coffee later and left.

    The next day I got cash, grabbed my coffee and took the $4 in change to Anna’s office. She said I didn’t have to pay her back, but I gave her the money anyway with a big thank you.

    So here’s where I am not sure if I did the right thing. Did I make the situation weird by paying her back for my beer? If Bob had been there and covered my beer I would have accepted it because he’s my boss, but Anna is not so I felt weirder about letting her cover for me. On the other hand, since our groups are so closely intertwined, the two bosses cover for each other all the time. And I think in hindsight I should have just accepted the free beer and not given her the money, that made a simple situation weirder.

    *this isn’t a big deal anyway, I’m not upset and Anna isn’t upset. It’s more about the future and if this happens again should I accept the free beer? I get nervous about social interactions sometimes and want to do the right thing.

    1. Graciosa*

      It’s fine.

      If it makes you feel better, think of it as messaging that you presented yourself in a (at least somewhat) social situation as a person who takes care of his or her obligations.

      Don’t give it another thought.

    2. Amanda2*

      I don’t quite understand why you didn’t just use your card and avoid this situation altogether?

      1. Channel Z*

        Sometimes there is a minimum charge of $10. I think it can be extra hassle for wait staff too?

      2. SL #2*

        There’s a bar here that has a 2-drink minimum that I always forget about until I’ve handed over the card and the bartender reminds me.

        I’m also the type of person that doesn’t like to use a card for anything less than $10, and Science! might be the same type of person?

      3. Science!*

        It’s a combination of it was a small charge, and there was a largish group of us but we didn’t set up separate checks ahead of time. My husband used to work in the restaurant industry and I know that it can be really annoying to deal with separate checks after everything’s been put in the system. I actually did take my card out and was trying to decide between asking for a check for just my drink, or walking over to the closest ATM to get cash when Anna offered to take care of it. Since I was running late it seemed easiest to take her up on the offer and pay her back. It was the next day when I tried to pay her back and she said it was fine. I made a joke about how the bosses always need coffee and gave her the money anyways.

        I over think things a lot which is why I asked about it here.

  136. Longtime reader/lurker*

    Any advice or anecdotes about moving to a new city to find work, without a job already lined up?

    AaM has some great suggestions about language/wording to use when applying for non-local jobs, and I’ve seen a few open thread topics on apartment searching in a new city, but don’t remember seeing much about this particular scenario.
    This is something I’ve been giving some serious consideration, but for the sake of brevity I won’t delve into too many details for now. (Would be glad to clarify any points that might help the discussion, though!)

    Hopefully any responses will be helpful to others who might be in a similar situation too.
    Thanks in advance for any thoughts, and thanks also for being such a great community!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Usually, it’s helped me to have a narrative: spouse going to grad school there, wanting to move to be closer to family, etc. If you just say “Hey, I want to try something new and like your city,” that may work, but it’ll be less compelling.

      1. Longtime reader/lurker*

        That’s a good point! I guess I’m fortunate in the sense that it’s not uncommon for people to relocate to the target area to pursue jobs, since said jobs are concentrated in the area. Although I can see how it’d be nice to have family in the area as a legitimate reason for moving!

    2. Lily Rowan*

      I’ve never been able to get a new job in the new city before I moved there, and I’ve done it several times. It sucks financially, but does mean that you’re available to start immediately, which people like. In the best scenario, the last time I did it, I was able to keep on as a remote contractor with my old job in the old place, while they looked for my replacement and I looked for a new job, and it all worked out perfectly.

      Interviewers will probably want to confirm that you have actually moved (because your past jobs will be elsewhere), but as long as you address that in the cover letter, you should be fine. And I don’t think you need to give a reason, really, just say, “I’ve recently relocated to City, and here’s why I’m super excited about this opening.”

      1. Longtime reader/lurker*

        Agreed on the finances and availability counts! I’ve been scrutinizing financial and logistical stuff in a lot more detail to make sure I won’t be shooting myself in the foot. Emphasizing the immediate availability part sounds like a really good approach too.
        It’s great to hear how that old job let you continue working remotely during the transition. I’m hoping to arrange something similar with my current job, if only to maintain some semblance of income while things get figured out. It’s gratifying to know that these things are possible!

    3. Tuckerman*

      I think a lot of success depends on the supply/demand of candidates with a particular skill set. I had trouble finding entry level jobs. You may want to get in touch with a temp agency, since a temp position can lead to something permanent. It can be tricky to move without a job unless you know somebody you can stay with, since to get housing you usually need proof of income.

      1. Longtime reader/lurker*

        Definitely am looking into local temp agencies. I hope I’ll be prepared if/when the job search doesn’t go as well as planned. Also hear you on the proof of income issue and staying with someone temporarily — that’s a conversation I’ll need to have with some local friends the next time I visit. Thanks for the reminder!

    4. LDP*

      I did this about a year ago, and I agree it does help to have a reason for the move that doesn’t sound like you’re not committed. Thankfully, I have family in the area, but also I moved to a place where lots of companies are currently moving. so that also helped.

      Temp agencies are great, and once you get there, try to find ways to get involved around your new city. It will occupy your time, and people with common interests may help in your job hunt!

      But aside from everything else, really make sure moving is the right choice, and it’s to the right area for you. I almost moved to a completely different place, and I went to visit and hated it. I love where I am now, and I can’t imagine my life anywhere else. It’s done wonders for my mental health being here! Hopefully that will be the case for you, too!

      Good luck!

      1. Anna Held*

        Temping is great, and if you’ve got the time, volunteer as well. Do something so the city is on your resume prominently. Use an address in the new city, and if you don’t have one, invent one or leave the address off your resume (no one sends snail mail anymore). Mention it in your letter too. I was surprised at how NOT careful people were at reading my materials — missing something that was clearly spelled out in my letter, misreading my resume (or confusing me with someone else), etc. This even in interviews with good people who I now work with, and know they’re competent. So make it blatant you’re now local, and don’t sweat it too much if you’re worried about some minor flaw or odd wording!

        It did take me a loooong time to find something, but a city is a better place than a smaller town. Create a network as quickly as possible — reach out to contacts, temp, volunteer, join a social activity. It’s hard when you’re just getting your bearings but you’ll get your bearings faster if you do.

        I got my job, btw, by applying cold — no network involved. That can happen too!

        1. Longtime reader/lurker*

          Thanks for these suggestions! Will definitely be aiming to get something local on the resume ASAP, and blatantly emphasizing the “being local” bit. :]
          Also appreciate the way you described the upsides of networking – it’s definitely a goal to become a known quantity among local contacts (and their contacts, etc.). And like you say, that’ll also help create a sense of belonging in the new place.
          I’m not counting on too much from cold applications right now, but I don’t doubt it can happen! It’d be a pleasant surprise if something did work out!

      2. Longtime reader/lurker*

        Thanks for the story about visiting the place beforehand! I did this a while ago with the intended area and actually found a number of things to be better than I expected. Hopefully I can do some more due diligence before taking any major action.
        It’s so good to hear that your current location turned out to be the right choice! An outcome like that would definitely make all the current uncertainty worth it. Here’s hoping, at any rate!
        Thanks again!

  137. Coffee Addict*

    Should you write back to your recruiter after you’ve been rejected for a job? I’m talking about situations where I’ve had in-person interviews, not just submitted an application for a position. I haven’t been doing this, but maybe I should start?

    1. Kim Possible*

      You could write back thanking them for the opportunity, and then ask for pointers on what you could improve on (whether it be your skill set, or your interviewing ability.)

      However, it would be a courtesy on the interviewer’s part to give you feedback, so they may or may not respond.

      1. Coffee Addict*

        Funny, my recent rejection letters have already included the reason I wasn’t chosen (they went with a more experienced candidate). That’s probably the main reason I don’t write back and honestly, it stings a bit to write people back immediately after a rejection. I think that’s why I’ve shied away from responding, but maybe I’m missing out on an opportunity?

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Yes! Search the AAM archives – there are some examples of how to do this well.

  138. Imaginary Number*

    I’m trying to figure out if I totally flubbed an interaction at work or if the person just overreacted. It pissed me off quite a bit, so I’d appreciate an outside perspective on it.

    The team I’m on has been working to finish up a major project. I just joined the team a few months ago. One of my coworkers, Ned (more senior but not my manager) asked me to contact a former team-member, Arya, to get help expediting something with an outside vendor. I’d met Arya before but we hadn’t interacted much since she was leaving the team right when I was arriving. So she knew who I was and my role. She was online so I messaged her: “Hi. I’m trying to get X from vendor Y for project Z and Ned said you might be able to help us.” In hindsight I should have been more specific what I was asking from her and I also should have asked Ned for more details about what she could help with.

    Arya never responded to my message. Fifteen minutes later, she messaged Ned. I knew this because he happened to be sitting right next to me with his laptop at the moment and was like “Oh, Arya’s messaging me.” She then proceeds to tell him that I was being very rude and “need to learn how to ask someone for a favor.”

    Apparently what I was asking her for was something that wasn’t really in her job description anymore and Ned knew this, but she had continued to help in that area. I know this because her next message was “I’ll help only because I like you.”

    I was pretty peeved that, instead of responding to me, the person who had reached out to her, she turned around and responded to the more senior person. I wouldn’t have minded if she’d responded back to me directly saying “That’s not really my job anymore and I don’t have time at the moment” or something like that. The way she went on to insult me behind my back (someone she didn’t really know at all outside of this one message) rubbed me the wrong way. Like I wasn’t worth talking to.

    1. LCL*

      Arya was being a bit of a jerk about it. You don’t know her history, she may be sick up to here with requests she can’t fulfill, but she wasn’t professional. Here at big bureaucracy I get requests once a week for something I can’t help the person with-these requests are usually a product of name or job duty confusion. I try to find out who can answer the question, and tell the questioner that in my response.

      2. Imaginary Number*

        I definitely think that may be the case (that’s she’s been getting a lot of requests to do her old job.)

    2. Murphy*

      Your request doesn’t seem rude. I think she overreacted, and that it was rude not to respond to you. If she has concerns about being asked to do things no longer in her job description (which is valid), I think she could address that with Ned separately, but she shouldn’t ignore you.

    3. fposte*

      I’m not crazy about Ned here either, tbh; it’s quite possible Arya’s been asked for more than she should be, and she actually didn’t expect him to show you her message. So I don’t think you were rude, but I think it’s quite possible that she’s legitimately frustrated with the situation and it came out in a way that hit you hardest because you were closest.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        He didn’t do it intentionally. We both happened to be looking at his screen when the message(s) popped up.

        1. fposte*

          Okay, but she didn’t do it intentionally either, right? She didn’t send it to you or expect you to read it. So I don’t think it’s quite fair to tag her as rude–she was venting to somebody else. I’d still consider this something that wasn’t really about you.

      2. Brogrammer*

        I’m not crazy about Ned either. He’s the one who instructed Imaginary Number to contact Arya about something that isn’t her job anymore without giving Imaginary Number any background into the situation. Then, when Arya messaged him to complain, it doesn’t sound like he explained that it was his idea and Imaginary Number didn’t realize this was a favor rather than a routine work request.

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, Imaginary Number is kind of stuck between the two of them; Ned knows it, and Arya doesn’t.

    4. Chaordic One*

      You don’t really say what, if anything, Ned did next. It seems like Ned is happy to let you take the blame for doing things that he asks you to do.

  139. DJ*

    Anyone here familiar with hiring in the biotech industry. I was recently told by that I needed an “Executive Summery” for my resume. It sounded like an Objective, only focused on your skills not the job you’re applying for. I wanted more input since Objectives are now frowned upon.

    1. moss*

      I’m a statistician in pharma. I just checked my CV and there is a “Summary” section that says “statistical programmer at all-phase CRO” (so my CV is out of date, haha). Anyway, if you’re a lab person put something labby there etc.

    2. TL -*

      What’s your education level? If you have lab skills and are applying to a bench position it can be helpful but it’s not necessary. If you have a PhD and are looking for a project running position it’s more common and can be more helpful.

  140. Tina*

    I work in a department of seven people in a large municipal agency in a large urban city. We are a small team, but do a lot of valuable work. However, it is a time of downsizing for said agency and everything is under scrutiny, so what we do must be done well. No department can afford do to anything wrong, that negatively impacts the agency, etc.

    Our department is organized completely horizontally with each one of us reporting directly to Boss. One team member, ThisGuy, continues to rely on the team to carry him at all times. It is a pattern of behavior. It goes like this…ThisGuy knows he has a vacation planned, none of us know until the day he is out (while approved by Boss, it was neither shared verbally nor on his calendar). This first vacation day coincides with Fancy Meeting where he is on the agenda to lead a discussion. ThisGuy never contacts Fancy Meeting organizer, nor does he ask one of us to handle in his absence. He continually is out of the office (“off site meetings,” says This Guy or on these vacation days) and work is left undone that the rest of us need to blindly figure out where things are and then how to address them – and we feel especially compelled to (see above: layoffs, scrutiny, no one can afford screwups).

    This has happened so frequently that Boss knows about it; he sees it happening. Boss acknowledges that ThisGuy is limited in his abilities. Boss also constantly tells us to “come together” to “figure it out” and generally doesn’t want to hear it. Even when we thoughtfully let Boss know that having to deal with ThisGuy’s undone work (which many times blossoms into crisis-level responses on our part) of which we have limited background and up-to-date information requires us to put our own work aside, he waves us off. We have to “make it work” and “figure it out together.”

    Obviously, Boss needs to shut down ThisGuy and could put a number of plans in place to correct his action or get rid of him, but until that happens (if at all!), what are some good strategies that (a) allow us to keep a distance from work that takes us away from our own tasks and priorities; and (b) allows us to ensure that we as a department continue to do good on behalf of our agency? Any and all suggestions welcome…Yes, on the side and not in a very active way I am looking at positions at other agencies.

    1. LCL*

      Boss asked you come together and figure it out. I think you all have figured out that none of you have the time to do ThisGuy’s work. Whenever Boss asks you to, tell him you can’t because you are doing X. That makes the problem boss’ each time. Of course if Boss tells you to drop what you are working on and do ThisGuy’s work, do it. Also, only use this tactic if you are doing legitimate work.

    2. Mephyle*

      One of the issues is that Boss knows when ThisGuy is going on vacation yet he doesn’t tell you. You could come together and figure out that you have to take a hard line with Boss to insist that he tell you from now on.

  141. A mouse anon!*

    Suggestions for work from home on your own time type gigs? My boyfriend is looking to supplement his very low income from his part time job. I mentioned rev.com to him after reading about it on another comment thread here. He applied, was rejected, and wants/needs to expand his search. He types pretty fast (75 wpm) and is open to data entry or really anything flexible. What say you, commentariat?

    1. CM*

      There’s a user testing website (user testing dot com, I think there are other similar ones too), where you get paid for doing user testing of software or websites at home. You need to have a headset with microphone and narrate your experiences as you’re using the site. You can pick up jobs when they become available and have to complete them quickly after picking them up, but there’s no obligation to do a certain amount.

  142. Bl0ssy*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for keeping multiple priorities organized? I’m a one-woman marketing department. In addition to my primary duties, I also support several departments and committees. I always thought of myself as a organized, but this is a whole new level of multitasking.

    I am open to apps and software, but I admit that I remember better when I’ve written something out by hand and I LOVE the feeling of crossing things off of a list.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I have a bunch of different priorities and I’m the most organised person I know. Here is what works for me.

      I have one document with everything in. Doesn’t matter whether you do this digitally or on paper – whatever works. At the top I have a list of projects and deadlines. Long-term stuff with no deadline also goes in there with ‘ongoing’ as the deadline. Basically this is for things that are important/urgent and important/not urgent (as per the important/urgent matrix – worth a Google).

      Next I have a daily to-do list which contains individual actions.

      Next I have individual task lists by project – each project is broken into actionable steps which get moved into my daily to-do list.

      Key mokest

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Hit send by mistake!

        Key milestones go in my calendar. When to start certain things and when they should be done.

        I think this may be vaguely based on the GTD methodology but I’m not sure. The really key thing for me was finding a method that doesn’t stress me out.

    2. Manders*

      Trello! I’m a visual organizer and Trello helps me keep track of all the big priorities. Then I hand-write daily and weekly checklists for the pleasure of crossing things off the list.

      1. SL #2*

        So, I and several others on my team use Asana, but I’m not a fan. What’s the difference between Asana and Trello? Different interfaces, of course, but is there something in the core functionality that’s different?

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Oh and I schedule time in for planning and organisation. If you are busy it’s tempting to skip that. Don’t. I have a standing Monday morning appointment with myself in which I plan my week, and I schedule a few check-ins on other days to review how it’s going.

  143. MammaLlama*

    Hi all! What’s your take on job titles that hold a TON of responsibility (like I get special projects assigned to me by our Board members) but have a job title that is, well, not as prestigious (for lack of a better word) as the responsibilities include. Think “Marketing Coordinator” or “Marketing Specialist” where other companies would have that be a “Manager” or “Director”-level position.

    I’m not picky about the job title personally, but I want to ask for a raise based on the work I do. However, I know that when the company looks to do a salary comparison with comparable jobs, I think the title is holding me back. It seems to be descriptive of entry level positions. I’ve looked on salary.com, etc. and “coordinator” and “specialist” seem to have 1-3 or 3-5 years of experience.

    Thoughts? Thanx!

  144. beanie beans*

    Any advice on how to apply to two different job openings at the same organization?

    It’s a small group, and the closing dates are the same, so I’m assuming they’ll notice that I applied to both. I’ve been thinking I’d just focus on making each cover letter unique on why I’m experienced for that particular job, but I feel like it will come off as insincere or desperate.

    Any ideas?

  145. Watermelon*

    This is my first position where I am part of a management team. I’m struck by attitudes of utter lack of respect for some lower-level employees and their opinions. I’m guessing this is par for the course, but I always hoped it wasn’t the case. Other managers – is this normal behavior that I should get used to as part of a management team, or am I offbase for thinking this isn’t okay?

    1. Halls of Montezuma*

      Probably not normal. Everywhere I have worked has had a Steve, who gets exceptionally upset at small strange things and picks inappropriate times to bring it up (ex. Complaining about dumpster not being emptied often enough at a meeting announcing layoffs). Great management teams will recognize that the Steves should still be talked about respectfully, but everyone is going to roll their eyes at his company-wide email about printer paper brands. At least for me, the biggest test for whether it’s a place I can live with is how they treat the average minions – the ones who aren’t superstars but also aren’t Steves.

    2. periwinkle*

      It’s not okay but that doesn’t mean it’s not common. I used to be the HR coordinator in a very large clinical department. I reported to one of the department leads and worked a lot with both management and staff, which meant living in that weird no-man’s-land in between. There was a lack of respect and trust on both sides, and I got to hear it all the time! Granted, not everyone on staff expressed opinions which were constructive or even rational (every team has its “Steve”!), but most people spoke up because they wanted to do their work well and provide the best customer care possible.

      Our lead administrator was particularly dismissive of those without a college degree, which was a bit of a problem since the majority of positions which didn’t require a clinical license also didn’t require (or need) a degree. Her leadership gave me lots and lots of material for the papers on How Not To Manage that I wrote during my master’s program… Don’t be her.

    3. Observer*

      It’s too common, but it’s stupid, and the best managers don’t have that attitude. So, I would say to you that you should NOT “get used to it.”

  146. frustrated & stuck*

    Two years ago, I started working at a new job and was doing pretty well until about a year in, when I got a concussion that lasted 6+ months as well as ensuing anxiety and depression (currently in therapy btw) that have lingered after the concussion had healed. All of this has made me into a much worse worker (slower, more mistakes, worse at following processes, less detail-oriented) and also a less pleasant/easygoing person to be around. (These aren’t just my impressions, I know from my boss and coworkers.) Boss etc are aware of the concussion but not the mh stuff, though I don’t think they were willing to understand just how bad it was. And I can tell I’m improving but the improvements at this point are so slow.

    Is it worth it to try to and redeem myself or should I be trying to jump ship asap? fwiw I am in tech so the norm is to move around every few years, I just don’t know if I have any possibility of getting out of this with a good reference if I stay & prove myself or if I’ve left such a permanently bad impression that I should just start fresh somewhere new.

    1. Emily*

      This is a tough question.

      Do you like your job? Is your day-t0-day work environment mostly okay, or are your boss/coworkers frequently reminding you of how you fail to measure up to pre-concussion standards? Is your current job performance bad, or just less good than it was before? Do you think that you’d do better/be happier at a different company?

      I’d say that whether or not you should jump ship depends on how badly you’re performing in the role (e.g. not fulfilling the essential job duties vs. adequate but slower than before) and how unpleasant the work environment is for you.

      1. frustrated & stuck*

        Day to day my coworkers are ok but my anxiety is through the roof, and my boss has privately called me out on missing deadlines — it’s affected clients, which is awful.

        I assume that the process of getting a new job will take a few months, by which time the concussion should be 100% gone and the mh hopefully resolved, so I think I would make a good impression, but I would like to leave this place with OK references as well if that is remotely possible.

  147. Emily*

    Tips on getting work done when you’re tired or have otherwise lowered focus? Preferably not caffeine-related? (I’m not a coffee drinker; I do drink tea sometimes but would rather not become dependent on it.)

    On days when I haven’t slept well the night before, I find it hard to focus or be productive. Obviously, I can try to minimize the frequency of these sorts of days by working on my sleep hygiene, etc., but I’m looking more for advice on how to manage my productivity once the tiredness/not enough sleep has already happened.

    1. Language Student*

      I study to video game/action movie soundtracks when I’m tired, it’s a really small thing but it helped me.

    2. MammaLlama*

      Are you hydrated? When I’m dragging at work, many times a huge sippy of water will help a ton!

      1. Emi.*

        And I find that drinking ice water wakes me up, like splashing cold water on my face but less messy.

    3. Murphy*

      Get up and walk around. Just stretching my legs and taking a quick lap around the office helps me sometimes.

    4. Coffee Addict*

      I agree with Murray and what I also want to add is going for outside. Just being in fresh air really wakes me up, even if it’s for 5 minutes.

    5. T3k*

      I don’t know if you’re allowed or not, but during breaks can you play some simple games or look online at stuff for a bit? Sometimes when I absolutely can’t concentrate, I find playing a quick game (15 mins. or less) gets me re-focused on my work.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I find I function better when the office is slightly cool in temperature. My office has one of those fake thermostats that doesn’t do anything, but I also have an electric fan by my desk that helps.

      Also the bit about keeping hydrated and getting up from your desk for a quick walk around the building every hour or so.

    7. Emily*

      Thanks for the tips, everyone! Sometimes I listen to music, which helps, but I can only pair music with certain tasks and not others.

      Next time I’m tired, I’ll try to be conscious of my water intake/stretch breaks. (Unfortunately, while games/internet browsing sometimes help me refocus, I’m not always great at switching back to doing work afterwards, so I have to be pretty careful with that strategy.)

        1. Aealias*

          Seconding this! My body will often accept food in lieu of sleep. Also, cold keeps me alert. Cold environment, cold drink, ice packs in my socks (not really) or whatever. As much physical movement as feasible. Walk to the printer more often, get several small cups of water during the day instead of one big one. Etc.

    8. A Person*

      On a bad day, I write up a list of small tasks I need to do when I hit my desk and check them off as they get done. For me, when I’m not on my A game I get more done focusing on small steps rather than trying to hold the ‘wholeness’ of a project in my head. I usually have to do some tidying up when I’m feeling better to make sure everything flows smoothly but it’s better than a whole day lost.

  148. Saviour Self*

    Thank you to everyone that offered up options and suggestions last week for people staring into my office as they walked by. I’ve adjusted my monitors somewhat to block it a bit more and am trying to not let my attention get drawn over. Fingers crossed it will go away in time or at least that I’ll notice it less.

  149. Language Student*

    So I’ve been volunteering as an ESOL tutor with a charity. I think I want to teach professionally, but I’ve only just finished my first year of Uni. I’m planning to stick with this charity as long as I can, but I don’t have much oversight there and other than that I don’t know how to get input on my professional skills before I get a teaching qualification after graduating. I’ve been reading up on the theory, but I struggle to apply it in practice and I don’t know how to measure how successful my attempts to apply something to an actual lesson are.
    Often I can identify problems – I lecture too much when lessons should be more student-focused, for example. But I don’t know how to fix them, and I want to do a good job for my students. Does anyone have any advice?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Is there someone at the charity who has been volunteering for a long time that you could work with as a mentor? She could maybe shadow you and off more personalized tips. Also, since you’re a university student, you might consider working at your university’s writing center (if they have one) — generally lots of international students use that as a resource.

      1. Language Student*

        Possibly! I can certainly ask, anyway. We have quite a few tutors who mostly cover other peoples’ classes, so it seems like something that could work in practice. Unfortunately my Uni doesn’t have any kind of writing/study centre (accredited distance learning Uni) but I live near a high school, so there might be tutoring opportunities. I’ll look into it, thanks!

    2. saffytaffy*

      Reading up on the theory is excellent. Are you studying education at uni, or are there pedagogy classes related to your major? That will help, so if you’re not scheduled to take any I recommend looking for them. You may also want to research TESL certificates- I earned mine during 4 weeks of intense, 8am-7PM study and it made a big difference.
      Also, ask other teachers to sit in on your classes and give you feedback. You might not agree with all of it, and that’s okay.

      I stopped myself lecturing so much by practicing what I would say beforehand and treating my time at the front of the class like a performance. And you know not to narrate your movements, right? “I’m just gonna write this down…” A lot of people do that, and it just takes conscious effort to stop.

      1. Language Student*

        I’m just studying Language Studies, no teaching attached to it. There’s some modules available about working with young people that could be helpful, so that might be a possibility (though I’d have to take them as extras outside of my degree pathway).
        4 weeks of intense study sounds like the CELTA – is that right? I’m hoping to take the CELTA before I graduate – ideally in the next couple of years and hopefully in a country where my target language is spoken, so I can get more exposure and stay for longer more easily.
        I think getting feedback would be really helpful, and practicing beforehand seems invaluable. I do the narration thing a little, and it’s definitely difficult to stop! I’m trying to get really familiar with planned processes for what I’ll do in different situations, which I’m hoping will help with the narration!
        Thanks for all your input! :)

    3. Foreign Octopus*

      Teaching English is a hit and miss game during the first year. I really struggled in the first three months and was just so discouraged. It was only towards the end of my first year that I felt as though I was making strides as I tried different things to find my own style of teaching.

      Reading theory is excellent but teaching is all about finding your own style. You’ll incorporate various methods until you create the LanguageStudent method. Also, all students are different and learn in different ways so what may work for one class, won’t work for another.

      One resource that I’ve found useful is this – http://www.tesl-ej.org/books/lomb-2nd-Ed.pdf

      It’s a book written by the renowned polyglot Kató Lomb. It’s half a memoir and half methods of language learning. It’s worth a read.

      Another resource is the British Council website and the ESL Library – the latter gives you lesson plans, although it does require a subscription (cheap though; 18€ for three months).

      Do you use a textbook whilst teaching or do you have to create your own lesson plans? Textbooks are easier to use because they give you the structure and it brings questions to the fore from the students when they know what is coming. If you plan your own lessons, tell your students what you’ll cover and ask them to bring any questions they have to class so you can focus on their problems rather than the problems you predict they might have.

      Keep a teacher’s diary. At the end of each class, write down how it went and what you can improve (reflective learning).

      Recording yourself teaching is also a great way to see what to improve. It also allows you to send the video to people rather than having them sit in on the class as that changes the dynamic.

      Finally, don’t forget that language learning is fun! Make it exciting. Get your students excited. In my own language learning (Spanish), I’m excited about the language and it takes me down the strangest paths. Encourage your students to do that. Also, if you haven’t already, learn a language yourself. It is the single most useful thing that I have done as a language teacher because the problems that I encounter as a student are the same problems that my students come across and I can use my own solutions to help them avoid my mistakes.

      Good luck!

      1. Language Student*

        I’ve definitely found that it’s much harder than I expected! I have good ideas but executing them well takes time and practice – I’m just lucky that I have the chance to practice in a safe environment.

        Yeah, I keep finding that my ideas are okay, but they’d work better with a different class – a more competitive one, or a bigger one, or a more outgoing one, usually. I’ll keep that in mind as I get more experience!

        Thanks for the resources! I’ll check those out. :)

        I’m teaching with any resources I want to use this month (Summer School) but when term time starts again I’ll be using a textbook. I’ve been telling students what I’ll be covering regardless of what resource I use, but didn’t make the link between getting them to think up questions so I’ll definitely be using that, thank you!

        I love the recording and teacher’s diary idea, I’ll start both of those right away. I have a few teacher friends outside of the school so I can maximise my feedback that way, too. :)

        Yes to the language learning! I’m studying German and Danish (at Uni and for fun, respectively) and it definitely makes a difference. As well as better knowing what problems they’re likely to struggle with, I can share resources that I personally know are great resources or great tricks as a language learner.

        Thanks for all your advice, I really appreciate it! :)

    4. HannahS*

      Can you ask the charity either for a a couple of supervised lessons or, better, if you can shadow some more experienced teachers for a bit? They’ll likely want to help you, given that you’re giving them free labour, especially since letting you shadow someone doesn’t make more work for them.

      1. Language Student*

        I’ll check and see – we have quite a few tutors who mostly just cover classes, and we have different times for classes (morning and night) so it seems like something that’d be possible. Thanks!

    5. Anna Held*

      Stop regularly to ask for questions. Really pause, look up and make eye contact, sip water, and give them a chance to ask. Suggest a problem they might be having and ask them about it, say “a student asked me after class last time, someone said they’re having trouble with X…” even though no one did. Get them talking.

      Ask them questions, constantly. Get them talking! It’s time consuming, but it helps them. You have to use a language! Games can be GREAT. They get engaged so much more. Do silly prizes like candy or stickers. Jeopardy is simply; bingo can work too. The internet is your friend.

      Dtraw connections. How does X in their language connect to X in yours? How is it like math if they’re math students? Did you see a funny usage of your language in their country? Talk a bit about how it all works.

      Plan a fun lesson on idioms. (Idiots, we used to call them). They’re the hardest, weirdest part of any language. How would you translate something literally, as opposed to what it really means?

      Get to know your students! This should be number one. Make flash cards with their names, photos if you have them, language level, and reason for taking the language, plus other background info. Figure out why your students are there individually. Then you can plan a lesson or 3 around these needs or interests. Also, it’ll help you connect to the students personally. Use the flash cards to make sure you’re calling on everyone.

      1. Language Student*

        Thank you for all your great suggestions! I struggle to get students to talk enough, so asking more questions, playing more games and getting them to make connections should be really helpful.

        Someone else suggested a teacher diary, so I’ll work the flashcard thing into that as well. I only have a week left with my current class, but I’ll hopefully be taking the same class for the academic year from the start of next term so I’ll work that in then. Thank you again!

  150. Kat*

    I just discovered that a new co-worker uses chewing tobacco. I discovered this because, during a conversation we were having (just small talk at lunch, not business related if that makes a difference), he spat his tobacco juice into a bottle he was keeping under his desk. I find this totally gross and unprofessional but we also have an anti-tobacco clause in our employee handbook. Smoking is strongly discouraged by my company but interestingly it only addresses smoking, not other tobacco products. Culturally we don’t live in an area where dip is prevalent.

    I am unsure if I should say something to my boss (the person who handles all the HR stuff) or just let him notice on his own. We’re a very small group in an open office so it’s likely this would happen eventually. But at the same time it is grossing me out to the point where I don’t want to venture near this coworker’s desk.

    What would you do, AAM readers?

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      It’s a gross habit, but it doesn’t really affect anyone. I’d leave it alone unless he’s in a customer facing role.

    3. Emi.*

      I don’t think you should report him just because you think it’s unprofessional, only if it’s impacting your work. And if it is, you should address it with him first.

      What grosses you out, specifically? Can you smell it? (If you didn’t know about this until you saw him spit, it sounds like not.) If you’re grossed out by the sound/sight of the actual spitting, just say “Hey, can you not do that around me? It really bothers me” or something like that. If you’re so grossed out just by the concept that you don’t want to go near his desk … you need to chill.

      1. Kat*

        it grosses me out to see it, for sure. I’ll definitely have to ask him not to if he does it in front of me again.
        I wouldn’t care if he did it at home on his own time but it seems off to me that he’s going against the tobacco policy so obviously (in my opinion). It does sound like consensus is it’s a MYOB situation.

        1. Emi.*

          I mean, it is kind of off that he’s going against the policy (unless it’s just a no-smoking policy?); it’s just not your off to deal with. You do have standing not to ask him to spit around you, though!

    4. saffytaffy*

      I find the smell of smokeless tobacco obnoxious enough that I’d have cause to complain about that.

  151. ann perkins*

    My last day at OldJob was over a month ago but today I got a direct deposit from them for a not insignificant amount of money. I called the employee service center and it turns out it was their error so they are taking it back. I know I did the right thing, no question, but it is always nice to think you have extra money!

    1. Coffee Addict*

      Good for you for reporting it! I read about a similar situation and the employee spend the money instead of reporting it. The old company found out and demanded the money be returned months later and the employee couldn’t pay it back. You averted an awkward situation!

    2. Rincat*

      I know how you feel! My husband got an “extra” paycheck due to a payroll error earlier this year, and suddenly we found ourselves with an extra 2k. I immediately contact HR since I knew it was an error, and they took it back, but yeah, I had some things I wanted to do with that!

  152. Pennywise*

    One of our senior managers routinely bemoans her money issues at the office, and it’s making things really awkward. She’ll say things like “oh, I ran out of money already for the month, and can’t afford X $20 item–I know, you’ll say I shouldn’t have bought a new phone” or “I had to borrow money from my mom and my sister again.” I am at a loss as to how to respond to when she says these things to me, but when she says them to her direct reports or our paraprofessional staff (and she makes 2-3x as much as they do), it gets really uncomfortable and they feel compelled to let her borrow whatever item she can’t afford (most recently, it was a suitcase) or solve whatever problem she’s experiencing. Anyone have suggestions on constructive alternative responses? Our boss has declined to address the issue unless she does it in his presence, which is unlikely to happen.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      In the moment- “That’s too bad what about X project?”
      In a private conversation to end it- “You’re really showing your butt talking about money woes the people that earn less than half of what you do.” -But only if you’re comfortable with this kind of conversation.
      Cleaned up version – “Susan I appreciate that you have money issues. But currently you are sharing them with people who earn less than half of what you do. Can you please not do this in the future, you’re making it uncomfortable for everybody.”
      Short version- ‘Susan, it’s not polite to talk about money issues in the office.”

      1. AdAgencyChick*

        To clarify…that’s what I would do if I were in the shoes of her direct reports, since they have no power to make her stop.

        If I were her boss, I’d tell her she needs to stop mentioning money issues to coworkers, especially to junior employees who might feel pressured to lend her money or items.

        If I were a peer, depending on how annoying I found it personally and how often I saw her doing it to her direct reports, I would either do the “sorry to hear that” and change the subject or approach her and say, “I don’t know whether you realize this, but it puts pressure on me and especially on your direct reports to help you out with a loan when you say things like that. That’s really uncomfortable for me, and it would be worse if you were my boss.”

    3. Observer*

      Do you have an HR department? Will / can they do anything if your boss doesn’t direct them to? What this woman is doing is appalling, and really should be stopped, if at all possible.

  153. Stephern*

    Is anyone out there in publishing, copyediting, or other related positions? I’d be really interested in knowing what you do, how you started in your position, what you enjoy about it, etc.

    Thank you!

    1. ThatGirl*

      I was a newspaper copy editor for four years, then transitioned into B2B writing and editing/content development, does that qualify? I worked at my high school and college papers, did a few internships, and landed at a small-town paper fresh out of college. How I got into more corporate stuff is a little more complicated. But I’m happy to answer questions!

    2. fposte*

      I edit a journal (that I also write for) and I love it. It’s associated with a university so I got connected with it first as a grad student. It’s like conducting music–I can bring the beauty of the score out by moving my hands. I’ve been doing it long enough that it’s second nature, and it’s always fun for me to have somebody bring material they know isn’t working right to me and to do a few snips and grafts to unblock it. Plus I have a lot of writers I’ve worked with for a long time and it’s cool to know people’s voices so well.

    3. Stacy*

      I’ve been writing and editing for about twelve years–worked in educational publishing the majority of that time. I fell into it when I moved to Chicago and got a freelance job writing for a music textbook project. While publishing’s pay is lower than other industries, it still seemed like a lot to someone who had made less than $30K a year as a musician in Dallas.

      The positions are competitive, but for the most part, the people are great, and you can build a repeat client list if you stay on top of your game and do good work. Learn the AP Stylebook and invest in the Chicago Manual of Style. Study, study, study.

      In my experience in corporate environments, being a copy editor limits your ability to move up the chain. If you do developmental editing or content editing, you’d be better positioned to move into a senior editing role. Fact-checkers and copy editors tend to stay in the same place. I’m not sure how it works in trade publishing, but I imagine it works similarly to educational publishing. Good luck!

    4. Lore*

      I’m a production editor at a Big 5 publisher–so I do and/or supervise copyediting, proofreading, etc. It’s basically stage managing books. I had a series of part-time or summer jobs in grad school that taught me some of the skills (I think you do have to have a natural aptitude for proofreading, but I learned how to mark proofs at one job and got some experience copy editing at another working for a Difficult Author directly). Then when I moved to NYC, I did some freelance proofreading and also worked through a (now defunct) temp agency that did a lot of publishing placements. I was in the Publishing Operations department, which was a good overview of how things worked and taught me some stuff about database management, publishing contracts, etc. When I was ready to apply for fulltime jobs, I had enough core skills that I was able to get a junior production editor position at a university press, and then really, really fortunate to have a friend from my temping days refer me to a trade publishing position that was a big step up but needed someone with both data management and copyediting/proofreading skills.

      My favorite parts of the job are A) that I work surrounded by smart, book-loving people. We have frequent debates in the cube farm about the tiniest minutiae of language and usage. B) it’s very concrete problem-solving and very project-based, so it’s never boring and there’s a different toolkit of skills and knowledge being used every time. C) the free books. On the downside, publishing doesn’t pay particularly well, and my side of it doesn’t get most of the glamorous perks–we don’t get to take authors to lunch or go to the parties or go on book tours. (Sometimes we get to meet them, but not always.) There’s also a very skewed responsibility/authority quotient to being a production editor–lots of the former and almost none of the latter. I can’t make authors meet deadlines but it’s my problem to solve when they don’t.

    5. saffytaffy*

      I used to work in academic publishing. An author would send me a book chapter (or we’d revisit the chapter from the previous edition) and I’d copyedit for tone and to make the layout match whatever our pedagogical goals were. If it was for a new edition of something I’d already worked on, I’d do research into the subject and then write new information myself and have another team member copyedit for tone. Then the work would go to a proofreader, then layout, and then the printer.
      I started there by knowing someone who already worked at the company, and I met her through a writer’s group. Since I’ve always enjoyed writing, I publish in local journals, attend open mics, and I publish my own zines.
      I enjoyed the job because it got me learning about diverse topics, and because it looked good on my resume, but it was very lonesome and ultimately not a good fit.

    6. SophieChotek*

      I do a fair amount of editing/proof-reading for my company’s product brochures, as well as external correspondence (i.e. mass letter sent to all their vendors, sort of thing.) I also have to write some content-on-demand. I enjoy it okay, and I’ve learned the desired “house style” as I’ve gone along, which means I am better at hitting the right tone/ideas for the on-demand-content than I was 2 years ago. I think I’d enjoy being an editor for something more academic (perhaps), but I don’t know that this job would get my into the “real” publishing world. I got into this position as sort of a “jack-of-all-trades” – I do a little bit of everything, but my writing abilities were a major point when they hired me so I knew some editing would be part of the job.

    7. Liane*

      Editing/QA for medical transcriptions: An acquaintance (sister of a friend) who knew I had a science degree and was job searching told me about the opening at her job.

      Copyediting (games industry): I volunteered to do the proofreading for the blog I was writing for. Unpaid for a month or 2 and then their Patreon started doing well enough for them to pay me a small stipend as editor in addition to the staff writer stipend.

  154. Timesphere*

    Maybe someone can explain this.

    I have a full-time, 40-hour per week job, but I only have enough work to fill 5-10 hours most weeks. When I told my boss that my job can be done just fine by a bunch of PowerShell and VBA scripts, macros and mail merges, his response was “Stop writing scripts, and don’t tell anyone else you did. We’ll lose headcount. You can use the free time to do whatever.” I told him I’m using scripts to free up time to do real work, but he says it doesn’t work that way in this organization.

    Why would an organization NOT want to get work done faster?

    I can’t easily change jobs because I have obvious disabilities, and this job is paying about triple what SSI pays. Am I stuck in a “job” where 80% of my time is spent working on personal projects and browsing the web?

    1. frustrated & stuck*

      can you use the free time for professional development & work towards a promotion?

      1. SophieChotek*

        +1 here.
        And if there’s no room for promotion – I guess just learn new software, etc., in case needed later, etc.
        I’m glad they are keeping your position and not reducing it to the hours you can get it done it! That’s great (for you). And I do know sometimes companies want to keep that budget, because once they lose it, it’s gone.

    2. Stacy*

      I have the same problem–no one’s fault. Just a huge company stuck with a project that keeps reanimating itself due to compliance issues. I use my “free” time to look for work online and improve my coding skills.

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      Because if they eliminate the position they lose the budget associated with it completely, then would have a hard time getting it back if they needed more staff in the future. It also may reflect poorly on them as a department and lead to other repercussions.

  155. Erin*

    How often is being called on your scheduled days off too much? I’m hourly and full and I get a phone call at least once a day when it’s my day off. Most of the time it’s where is this file, did you do this. Not important things. Yesterday was a requested day off, one of my two for the week,so I could take my stepdaughter to an amusement park and I got a call. I didn’t answer it because I was unavailable, I also didn’t return it because there wasn’t a voicemail or follow up text. But
    It’s starting to effect my home life it’s really frustrating when I’m having dinner with my family and I get a phone call about where X is. Especially when I’m not paid for them.
    Also how should I bring it up to boss and probably my grand boss?

        1. Snark*

          I’d recommend asking your bosses how they’d like to handle paying you for the time, which I suspect will dry those calls right up. Your coworkers you can just tell you won’t be taking nonemergency calls to resolve issues they or someone else at work could take care of, and then stop picking up the phone when they do.

          1. Erin*

            I’ve stopped answering my phone when it’s work, but it’s the texts too. I can’t just turn off my phone for family reasons,and I’m jobsearching.

            1. Observer*

              Turn notifications for texts off. This way you don’t get disturbed. And don’t “see” those texts till you are back at work.

      1. Erin*

        Would it be unprofessional to set my phone to just put work and my co workers personal number directly to voicemail? So everytime it rings I’m not interrupted.

        1. Snark*

          Nope, totally reasonable. I’d tell them first that you’re not taking any more non-emergency calls when you’re off the clock, and then I’d hold them to that.

        2. Trout 'Waver*

          Not at all unprofessional unless you’re an exempt person whose manager has directly told them it was a job requirement to answer calls off hours. Since you’re clearly not in that category, you’re perfectly fine.

    3. Observer*

      Unless it’s your boss calling, just stop answering the phone. If you have reason to think that people will complain to your boss and your boss will then give you a hard time, ask him how he wants you to charge your time. You’re hourly, which means you need to be paid for your time.

  156. saffytaffy*

    How ‘C’ is the CIO at your company? Where I work, he’s the only C who doesn’t have an office in the C-Suite. His office is next door to his team and there’s a sense of approachability that’s more like a manager. Is that typical for the position?

    1. H.C.*

      In my former & current workplaces, CIO reported to the COO rather than the CEO – so I consider the C more of a title technicality.

    2. Stop That Goat*

      At my last company, the CIO was in the same building as the IT team and not with the rest of the C’s. She was approachable but most of the C folks were just as approachable honestly.

  157. Mimmy*

    Being good at a job but not liking it –

    This is more of a “thinking out loud” post, but any help is appreciated.

    I work directly with adults with visual impairments, many of whom have additional disabilities (mainly cognitive and hearing). Everyone at my job tells me I’m doing very well. However, I’m not even sure I like it. I often feel like I end up in jobs that I become very good at, but not really liking. I’m just not sure if the problem is A) the job itself or B) that I don’t like working with individuals at all.

    A is possible: Everyone has tried to be supportive. Many staff are also visually impaired, so accommodations are pretty much ingrained (large print materials, adaptive computer software). Plus, I’m discovering that working in the realm of visual impairment (and other sensory disabilities) is a good niche for me. It’s all quite fascinating. Finally, my supervisor has been gracious enough to offer an open door, so to speak, if I ever need help from her or other staff with any frustrations with students or other issues. However, it is a state-run facility, so you have all the bureaucracy that comes with working for government agencies. Also, I was not prepared for the types of disabilities that have presented in the last few months. Given my prior lack of experience in ANY teaching–let alone such a challenging population–I am (pleasantly) surprised at the positive reviews, though I’m nowhere near comfortable.

    B) I have had other jobs where I work directly with people, either by phone or in person. Sometimes it does feel natural–I think it depends on the individual. However, working with people can cause me great anxiety. Describing my reasons would turn this post into a dissertation, lol, but suffice it to say that it has led me to shy away from many good opportunities. I’d also really like to use the other skills I’ve been developing in the last few years that don’t involve direct client contact.

    Based on conversations I’ve had with various people, it’d behoove me to stay put. But I’m sure sure I can last before I hit a breaking point.

    1. Stacy*

      It sounds like, at the very least, you should start thinking about what you really want to do and then start formulating an exit plan. I’ve found that, in jobs that make me nervous or uncomfortable, just starting a plan can help alleviate the anxiety. Good luck.

    2. fposte*

      There are a few things I can’t remember for sure about your current work situation that are relevant to my thoughts. Is this full-time or part-time, contract or not? How long you’ve been in this position, and am I correctly remembering that you had a work gap (paid work) prior to that (and if so, can you remind me of how long it is)? And are you talking about looking for other work or leaving this job whether you’ve got something else lined up or not?

      Obviously a breaking point is a bad thing and if you mean it in health terms you have to take care of you before anything. But if you had a notable work gap before this job, you’re going to want to look at the longer-term impact here and do some career math. For instance, a job left under a year after a career gap of over a year means some question marks; are you okay with those question marks? They’re mitigated somewhat if this isn’t your only job (didn’t you have a couple of part-time gigs at one point?) and if you’re looking while employed rather than looking after you quit, so that’s worth factoring in as well.

      What I think might make sense for you is some window-shopping, jobwise; you’re focused on a specific field and your access challenges make your search even harder, so a search might be on the slow side anyway. Transitioning directly to a new job after 18 months, say, is a different resume look than walking away from a job for nothing after 8; you’ll probably preserve a few more options if you do something more like the former than the latter.

      1. Mimmy*

        Thanks so much for your input – you always have sound advice. I am definitely mindful that leaving without having anything else lined up, especially if it’s after just a short period and after a long gap, are unwise.

        To answer your questions:

        Is this full-time or part-time, contract or not?

        This is technically a temp position – it’s a classification my state uses (at least this particular state agency) in that you are allotted so many hours per fiscal year (below 1,000) and it is without benefits. I don’t have to reapply each year, I just have to make sure I don’t use up my hours too quickly during each given SFY.

        My co-instructor is still on leave, so I’ve been covering for her, thus working extra hours. Once she returns (probably late August), things hopefully will ease up and free my time to get involved in a project my supervisor has been wanting to do for ages but couldn’t due to staffing shortages and a 2-week high school program that starts on Monday.

        How long you’ve been in this position, and am I correctly remembering that you had a work gap (paid work) prior to that (and if so, can you remind me of how long it is)?

        Today marks 4 months. And yes–this is my first paid position since late 2010.

        And are you talking about looking for other work or leaving this job whether you’ve got something else lined up or not?

        Once my schedule stabilizes later in August, I hope to at least look for opportunities (paid or unpaid) that will fit with my interests and future goals. While I hadn’t had a paid job for awhile prior to my current job, I’d been involved in various councils and committees; I plan to re-evaluate those as well.

        1. Mimmy*

          Just to clarify – If I do find other opportunities, I won’t automatically jump ship at my current job. I will be sure to carefully evaluate everything, promise :)

  158. Stacy*

    Hi all. Been a lurker for a while. I think this is my first time commenting. First off, let me just say how much I adore this group. Really helpful, nuanced advice. Also, Allison’s free interview guide has really helped me conquer my nerves in interviews.

    I have two questions:
    1. I recently had an interview for a Content Analyst position. To be honest, I had no idea what the job was, but it seemed to fit my skills when I read the email from the recruiter. It turns out, the job entails a lot of work in Dreamweaver (something I didn’t know ahead of time–the recruiter’s email didn’t specify the software). I have no experience in Dreamweaver. BUT I do a lot of off-the-job training in Lynda.com and the like (Codecademy, FreeCodeCamp, etc.) and will add Dreamweaver to the mix, and I asked the interviewer for his email address to let him know how my training is going (once I’m far enough along to warrant another talk about hiring).

    This was totally off the cuff–something I hadn’t thought of before the interview and it just kind fell out of my mouth. Wrong move? He didn’t seem weirded out by that at all–in fact, he was a lot friendlier and warmer by the end of the interview than at the beginning. I don’t think I’ll get the position, but… what say the AAM community? Should I not have asked that? If I do get hired at a later date, I plan to go through the recruiter who recommended me, of course.

    2. This experience made me wonder: What kinds of tech jobs are out there other than straight developer jobs? I have experience managing client content management systems, but I’ve not been able to find a lot of those positions on Indeed (at least not for my city). I guess I’m looking for those jobs that are sort of “in-between” that would allow me to grow my tech skills without immediately throwing me into the deep end of the pool. I wouldn’t even know where to begin to look in terms of job titles.

    Thanks, all!

    2. NZ Muse*

      With CMS skills, I’d definitely look for anything with the word ‘content’ in the position title – content specialist/producer/manager/editor as a starting point!

      Sitting in digital content roles within a marketing team over the past few years has given me more exposure to both marketing but also technical skills, working with devs, designers etc. I’ve had the joy of doing testing (internally), running user testing (external), supporting colleagues on all things techy as well as external users, and learned tons in the process.

  159. Jessen*

    Asking this earlier this time: How do you focus on a boring job? My job’s a mix of answering phone calls and very basic quality control. Much of my work is very repetitive. I am not allowed to switch tasks during the day – you have your task for the day and that’s what you do all day. My schedule is scripted so I can take breaks only at my scheduled break times (about every 2h). I am not allowed to wear headphones or have any music, and I can’t have any food at my workstation. But if I’m doing anything other than the job in front of me I’m wasting time on the clock.

    As you can imagine, it’s hardly my ideal job, but it’s about the best thing I’m going to be able to get right now.

    1. saffytaffy*

      I used to make up word games that I could play with myself and that would look like notes. Like i’d write a long word, then write all the words i could make using letters from the first word. Or I’d work to turn one word into another by changing one letter at a time.
      If I wasn’t allowed to have paper and a pen, I’d use my fingers and toes to count kinds of fruit, animals, actors, movies, or elements of the periodic table. I’d also count muscle contractions, starting by arching my toes, heels, clenching my calves, and so on up 10 or 50 times each, and then back down.

      1. Jessen*

        The worry is that if I’m seen not working, it looks bad on me. And it’s pretty obvious from my job that there would be no need to take notes.

        1. saffytaffy*

          I hear you- it may be that the company has written those policies to make it as difficult as possible for you to do anything except work for your entire shift. That’s not moral or normal, but you know that.
          I’ve been thinking about this a lot. You need to stay focused, right? So maybe training yourself to need less stimulation will help you feel less bored. That might mean meditation/embroidery/unplugging during nonwork time, and your brain may start to feel satisfied with less to do.

          1. Jessen*

            Most of it isn’t even policies, it’s just kind of the nature of the beast. My job is to do the same 30-90 second task all day. Since you’re in the open, if you’re not working, that means someone else is doing your work and they know that.

            There’s probably some of it though. I think in low-level jobs like this there’s a suspicion that if you don’t control employees enough they’ll just spend all their day goofing off. Welcome to call center – it’s not the best, but it pays a heck of a lot better than retail.

          2. Jessen*

            I should add, I’m not looking to get too used to it because I do want a different job. But right now I’m obviously not getting a different field unless I get a different education because I can’t convince anyone my “academic” degree is good for anything.

    2. k.k*

      Is your workstation or computer screen private at all? I read articles when I’m bored. Windows can be minimized quickly, and a block of text isn’t very conspicuous. Try to find some blogs or publications related to the industry your company is in. Even if you don’t love the industry, there may still be a few articles that can catch your interest, and you can spin it as work related if caught.

      1. Jessen*

        Screen isn’t private. Even if it was, the fact that I was spending time reading articles and not doing my job would be noticeable because my stats would fall – they’re built around the expectation that I’m 100% doing work any time I’m not on break.

  160. R.*

    Looking for any and all advice on performance reviews in a weird setting.

    Backstory: I’ve been here for just over a year and a half. My first review was great, I have since managed to put together a large portfolio of praise and thanks from people I worked with all year. I have just finished being one of a two-man team completing something that should have been 8-12 people, and doing so almost-flawlessly (flaws not being my fault, and having higher-ups acknowledge that fact). The problem is, that other person was my boss.

    Boss has since begun doing what feels like icing me out. Not telling me about projects, springing things on me last minute, and treating me as less of the “team” we were before. My performance review is at the end of the month, and where I was fairly confident, I am now very hesitant about how to approach it.

    The kicker: I tried to schedule it for before my week-long vacation, and she very specifically scheduled it for the very day I get back.

    Help?

  161. Anon Librarian*

    I have my MSLIS and it’s tough to find a library job near me. (They’re mostly part-time.) I’m applying to positions in different fields, but they see that MSLIS degree and my library experience and are hesitant. They either think I’ll leave once I get a library job or question why I don’t want to be in library.

    I’ve tried saying that I want to switch fields or say how my library experience would benefit them, but
    it’s frustrating. Why do they even bother calling me?

    1. fposte*

      Because they like some of what they see. They just don’t know if it weighs more than what they’re not sure about.

      Can you go back to your school for some networking and transferability guidance? It’s a pretty common question.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      No one calls you for an interview unless they want to potentially hire you. I know it doesn’t feel like it now, but this is actually a great sign.

      So, I would work on deciding how to answer the question. Sometimes the best answers are the most honest ones, “I don’t want to move, because all my family is here and I have realized that maybe librarianship isn’t for me. But since I have my MLIS and I studied (X and Y), I really think I can bring (X and Y) to this job.”

  162. Fabulous*

    My company is merging with a sister company.

    There’s been chatter for a while; acquisition from the parent company happened 2 years ago, and one of our offices already closed down earlier this year because the sister company had an office in the same state doing better than ours. I just heard this week from a reputable co-worker that a date has officially been set for the merger in early August. A few sales reps in our western office have already started using their database system on a beta-trial basis. The merger has not yet been confirmed from my boss and probably won’t be general knowledge until it actually happens, because of course that’s how they do things around here.

    Since I do shared services for both the companies, my job probably won’t be compromised. And since our office in the Midwest is essentially a hub, most everyone else should *hopefully* be fine. But there’s still a whole lot of uncertainty and possibly overlap in a few key areas.

    Who here has survived a merger, and how did everything roll out?

    1. BulieBelle*

      I’ve been in acquisitions, but not mergers. I’ve always been on the small-company side of an acquisition several times.

      USUALLY, nothing happens for at least six months, and then at some point after that, there’s a reorg and layoffs, some of which affected me and some which didn’t.

      Things do not always work out the way you would expect them to. My first experience with this, the company that bought us had no experience in software development. but had lots of opinions about it. They canned a lot of our managers and brought in new people who really made a mess of things. Then many of the remaining employees, including me, left.

      More recently, my large international employer got bought by a ginormous international company. There have been a lot of high-level reorgs that are totally irrelevant to me, a handful of layoffs that IMO were not terrible, and a highly annoying cluster of “initiatives” and bad enterprise-level software tools and feeble efforts to impose a particular type of “culture” that most of us find irritating. Also a steady decline in the quality of our benefits.

      Interestingly, when the ginormous company took over, one of our coworkers quit. His previous employer had been taken over by the same company, and he said he couldn’t bear to go through that again. He said it was like getting sold for scrap.

      So it’s hard to say – a particular company might be great to merge with or horrible, depending on the value they see in your company. (Not necessarily the value that exists – just the value that they see.) I would think that a merger would be much more equitable than an acquisition, and I would expect the fallout to be gentler and occur over a longer period of time.

  163. Anon Here*

    Has anyone had any luck posting their resume to job boards? They always advertise “Let employers find you”. I know Linkedin is probably the main one, but has anyone ever found it helpful to post their resume on Indeed or other job boards?

    1. JulieBulie*

      My suspicion is that the only “employers” who look for (or at) these are the ones you don’t want to be found by. Like MLM people.

      1. CAA*

        Not true! I actively search for and contact people who have skills we need that are difficult to find. I’ve also been contacted numerous times by in-house and external recruiters for reputable companies, though none of those have actually resulted in a job.

    2. CAA*

      For individual contributor positions in tech, both LinkedIn and Indeed can be useful. I’ve personally hired people I found in both places. Once I got into a management role, I’ve never found a job by posting my resume online. It’s always been by direct application and/or networking.

    4. Stacy*

      No. My resume is posted to Careerbuilder and the only replies I get are from insurance companies looking for commission-only sales people.

    5. Fabulous*

      I’ve gotten legit calls from being posted on Monster. Mainly jobs through temp agencies, but the two most recent ones I took and the last one actually turned into something permanent.

    6. Laura*

      I avoid Linkedin (don’t care what anyone says about it; I’m NEVER joining) like the plague and have my resume on a number of sites. Haven’t heard back from anyone.

      1. TL -*

        I have – haven’t gotten a job but have had leads that I didn’t pursue. I think it’s very skills-based, honestly.

  164. Underpaid Bookkeeper*

    I need to ask for a raise but I’m so scared! I’ve never done this before. I always just get a raise once a year but I never got one this year and I can’t decide if it’s because they don’t like my performance or just forgot or don’t want to raise salaries.

    Also my boss is always SO BUSY it’s hard to find the time to bring it up. I found a report from payscale.com that shows how underpaid I am but I’m not sure if I should show it to her or if I should just say, “I did some research and for what I am doing I should be paid this amount?” My boss is on vacation this week so I’m trying to gain the courage to ask her when she comes back.

    I was trying to wait because a family member talked to their CPA about interviewing me in July. They said that after the 4th of July they’d call me. And since then every time we contact them they just say, “Oh she hasn’t forgotten she’s just really busy.” So I can’t decide if they really are busy and they’ll get around to it or if that is their version of saying I don’t have any work for her to do/I don’t need to hire anyone right now…which is fine but I can’t wait around for new opportunities forever.

    Blah. I just don’t know what to do anymore.

  165. Traveller*

    The discussion about unpaid time off earlier this week made me curious about what’s normal or typical policy for voluntary unpaid time off. I’m in a white-collar industry (engineering) in the US. My company has a fairly generous PTO policy, but I like to travel and I’m fortunate to be in a position where I can afford to extend my vacations by taking a few (5 – 10) unpaid days per year. (My company doesn’t have a formal policy on unpaid time off. When I’ve asked, HR tells me to check with my supervisor, and my supervisor tells me to check with HR. Other than that, no one has said a word about it.)

    I understand that the primary concern under discussion was coverage, and that isn’t an issue with me. I plan my time off months in advance and work out a leave plan with my supervisor and coworkers (who don’t mind covering for me because I return the favor when they are out). I’m just curious because I was surprised that the general tone in the comments seemed to be that even one unpaid day off was kind of a big deal. Is that normal?

    1. Uncivil Engineer*

      It’s normal for the government agency where I work. We have a formal program for taking unpaid time off. We sign up at the beginning of the year to say how many unpaid days we want to take (there is a maximum) and, once approved, taking the time off is not a big deal as long as you have someone covering for you.

  166. Tee*

    In the fall I’ll be starting grad school and still working part-time. I was wondering if I could get some advice on how to have some semblance of a work/school/life balance during this time? My grad program is course based, so I think that should let me be a bit more organized, but I’m not sure what else I need to do. I’m already getting nervous about everything!

    1. SophieChotek*

      When I was in grad school and working part-time, I think just making a schedule and sticking to it was very helpful. (It’s also an asset if your part-time job has some semblance of a normal schedule, so you can factor that in.) For me, that helps my productivity and keeping my life as balanced and sane as possible as I navigated grad school, work-study/off-campus jobs, getting my coursework complete, and having some semblance of a personal life apart from both.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      Check when big projects or papers might be due. Start things early. As long as you keep your eye on what’s coming up, it can be done! (Speaking from experience!)

    3. katamia*

      Know how you work best. I’m not in grad school (actually starting in the fall, too), but I freelance and can completely set my own schedule and also work retail part time, so my situation is similar. For example, I’m not very good at switching between tasks, so it’s better for me to, say, go to work and then do errands or clean or make meals for the week or do something else that doesn’t take a lot of mental energy and then devote the days when I’m not scheduled to work completely to freelancing (will be studying when grad school starts). Certainly if I feel up to working/future studying after my job I’ll do some, but I try to never put myself in a situation where I’m required to both work and freelance/future study on the same day because I just. can’t.

      I don’t know how you work best, but if you’re not sure, then try a few systems out and see which ones seem to work best for you.

  167. ExcitedAndTerrified*

    So, it’s been an interesting week here… lots of good news and bad news intermixed, and it’s creating all sorts of questions for me.

    On the good news side of things, I arranged to partner with a local Tea Ceremony club and bring them into my library on a regular basis, for using our meeting spaces and materials. In doing so, I agreed to offer them classes on the subject matter (about which I know just enough to make myself useful), so that has suddenly created another program I’m responsible for running… bring me up to running 4 different programs every week (8 hours worth, not including any prep time).

    On the really good news side of thing, working with a team of my coworkers, I just landed a $100k grant. This is pretty awesome, but it involved a lot of work (I spent almost 60 hours on the grant work and meetings related to it over the last three months, and the rest of the team did likewise). The expectations of the grant are that each person on the team will run 6 programs over the next few months, which wouldn’t be insane if I didn’t already have 4 running each week.

    On the bad news side of the equation, I found out that my wages are being paid by another grant. Which makes me worried about what will happen if we don’t get that grant again next year. And we’ve had a couple of physical threats against the facility recently. Combined, stress is causing me a bit of sleeping problems.

    On the really bad news side of the equation, I found out that my part time assistant is NOT one of the (multiple) positions we’re going to try and fill this fiscal year.

    So, questions for folks:
    -How do I avoid burning out, under a frankly ludicrous workload? I have a desk that is in the busiest part of the building, so I’m always ‘on call’ to our patrons (which, to be fair, I knew would be the case when I took this position), which makes it hard to even plan or prep a program without getting interrupted for a question.
    -How do I explain to my bosses that this arrangement is not sustainable in the long term? I’m doing 4 (soon to be 5) distinct programs a week, as a one person department. That’s as many programs as any other department, but they all have between 4 and 8 times the staff I do.
    -How can I ask my bosses about what the plan is, if they don’t get another grant to pay for me?
    -In the event that I need to move on from this position (which I really love, except for the lack of backup), due to stress or burnout or getting laid off, how would I put having gotten that large grant down on a future resume? I feel awkward saying I got it, because it was definitely a team of staff working on the grant.

    1. Anna Held*

      I’d lay it out the way you do here. Have it all in writing. There’s new programming coming, let’s figure out how we can get it all done, and you clearly can’t do it all. Be matter-of-fact; you’re working together to figure out a work problem, not whining that life is unfair, or you’re sooooo over worked. You can’t handle this level of activity, and you shouldn’t have to!

      Hey, you helped get a huge grant. Surely they can hire some help out of that or reallocate resources, or at least move you. If you burn out you leave or your work suffers. Not a good outcome for anyone.

  168. Temporarily Anonymous*

    Question for any executive assistants (or similar) especially in Canada:

    I’m currently employed as a government administrative assistant in a field where the only options for growth are not appealing to me: supervisor/middle management or a different kind of admin (that involves long hours of sitting and recording with frequent missed breaks and a lot of unpredictable overtime). I don’t want to remain in this current position for the long term so I’m considering other options, namely, finding a position in a different sector as an executive assistant. However I don’t think my current experience is going to be sufficient when applying as an EA.

    Some of what I currently bring to the table: High accuracy and speed in data entry, dealing professionally and calmly with the public and with people in various levels of authority- often in high stress and time sensitive situations- in person and by phone or email, some accounting-related training, some appointment booking and scheduling experience, creation of and regulating communications regarding confidential info and docs, production of clear and detailed instructions (for new processes and the like), and demonstrating​ initiative in preemptive problem solving in my specific area.

    I don’t have a university degree but I do have close to a decade of experience in this field.

    Do you have any recommendations for key/unique skills, training, or education that would be helpful in becoming an executive assistant?

    1. Temporarily Anonymous*

      To add to this: I’m finding it rather difficult to get a clear idea of what I need to do to get from entry level admin to executive assistant level. There don’t seem to be- or I haven’t managed to identify- much in the way of intermediate level jobs (but this may be a lack of insight due to my current limited-opportunity field). So I suspect I will need to do any further training or skills development on my own time.

      Any and all input would be very welcome!

  169. Joa*

    As part of a larger life change, my mother (in her mid-50’s) is contemplating job hunting for the first time in 18 years.

    She’s been a lead employee at a small family-run outdoor clothing store since 1999, and prior to that had her own home-based business making and selling a specialty item to retail stores. She has a high school education. She’s stellar at her job, but is not as strong at writing (undiagnosed dyslexia, I suspect.) I’m not sure that she’s ever made a resume before and isn’t really job market saavy, so she asked me for help. She’s asked me for help, but her experience is pretty different from my own and the hiring I do in my industry. I worry a lot about her since she’s not had any sort of employee-provided benefits for that entire time (retirement, etc.)

    Any advice for someone making a major life change? How someone can move from a long-term retail position into something else? Or how I can be a helpful and useful daughter through the process.

    1. Fabulous*

      I’ve done this for my aunts who needed to make resumes from scratch. Start by having her write down everything she can think of that she’s ever done at a job in list form, with dates and as much information as possible. Since she’s been at the same place for many years and presumably doesn’t have a ton of other positions (or out of date) I’d format like this:

      Name
      Contact Info
      Summary
      Skills       – List computer programs, cash handling, sales, and other types of hard skills
      Work Experience
      >Clothing Store (1999-Present) – Accomplishments
      >Independent Retail Distribution (xxxx-1999) – Describe specialty item and bullets about accomplishments for both making and selling
      Training (do not include this section if it would only include a high school diploma)

      As for formatting, keep the white space well balanced. To help fill a sparse page, you can use separate lines for dates and titles rather than keeping info on the same line to condense space. Also, you can center everything vertically so that the bottom isn’t totally blank.

      As for changing career paths, be sure to tailor the summary and skills section to highlight her transferrable skills. For example, my aunt had been out of work for a few years doing odds and end jobs here and there, but had a fairly substantial career as a hairstylist. In her summary, I wrote, “Motivated and experienced worker looking to transition from a long-time career as a salon hairstylist to a new environment and focus more on utilizing superior scheduling ability, exceptional customer service skills, and creativity.”

      Hope this helps! Good luck to your mom!

  170. breadandbutterfly*

    After being laid off five months ago, I have finally been offered a contract job (CJ1). However, the client has a terrible reputation for mistreating contractors. I witnessed this first hand- the contracting company has been really shady and dishonest in their dealings with me. Still, I’m desperate and accepted. Given Client’s known record of abusing and rapidly firing contractors, my plan is to keep looking for my next opportunity, and be the one to quit.

    I’m a week out from my start date and I JUST LEARNED I am in the running for another contracting offer (CJ2). CJ2 pays better than CJ1, is closer to my home, and is an overall better company. Not to mention, it’s a better situation for me and my family hands down.

    My question: how do I manage the situation with minimal damage to my reputation? Should I tell the CJ2 recruiter I have already accepted a contract opportunity, but I would back out immediately if they extend an offer? Should I move forward with CJ1 and resign if I’m given an offer with CJ2? If that happens, what do I say to CJ1 (“I’m sorry for the inconvenience, but an opportunity popped up that was just too good to refuse”?). FWIW, I live in a strange market- I’ve been contracting for a couple years now and have found the employers expect more loyalty from temps then from their full-time employees.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Based on what I’ve read here, you need to reach out to CJ2 and say you have an offer and ask them their time frame for making a decision. (In the meantime, I guess you try to stall a few days with CJ1, “thinking over the offer” which is legitimate, and hope to hear back from CJ2).

  171. MuseumMusings*

    So in addition to my museum job, I have a M-F job that pays the bills. At that job, I am an admin assistant and with the resignation of our Accounting Manager (my supervisor), Sales Coordinator, and main Marketing person, I’ve been shoehorned into taking on some of their duties (including HR). I’m excited about the growth potential, but also a bit unnerved because I have my original work on top of this. It’s been about a month so far, but I’m staying afloat.

    Recently, I’ve been taking on duties to assist the CEO such as coordinating his scheduling, reading his email to him, and acting as the main point of contact if people want to reach him due to a medical injury. It’s the first time I’ve ever had this kind of role and I’d appreciate any insight into how I can do the best work possible.

    Lately, I’ve been noticing that he’s been actively avoiding me – scheduling meetings over the ones we have planned or taking longer lunches and texting me about it 30 minutes after we were supposed to start, leaving in the middle of conversations (?!), and has even stopped dumping his stuff on my desk in the mornings when he comes in (I’m not too sad about that happening, but it’s part of a bigger distancing trend that I’ve noticed). In addition to this, he’s also started texting me with stuff late at night (one of them was at 9pm) and on my days off and has, on occasion, hunted me down at my museum job to ask me about work questions on the weekend. At this point, I’ve been responding to his questions at normal hours and doing what I can during my museum work, but it’s starting to stress me out! We don’t have an official HR, though we are working with a limited-hours consultant. Is there a way to politely nail down my boss and ask him what’s going on and ask him if my job duties and availability have changed?

    He’s very bad at communicating things to me (I didn’t know that I had been given a raise until a week later – and I’m the one currently coordinating this type of information with Payroll) but expects me to read his mind and I worry that if I don’t have an understanding of what he wants from me that he’ll write me off as a failure. Several times I have been chided for not picking up the phone when he calls, but I’ve been in the bathroom. Any scripts on getting clearer communication or advice on being an executive assistant in general would be much appreciated, thank you!

    1. fposte*

      I was like eh, avoidance happens and it’s not personal, distracted boss, annoying but it happens, and then I hit “has, on occasion, hunted me down at my museum job to ask me about work questions on the weekend.” (Then I hit the fact that he chides you for not answering when you are in the bathroom.) Nope, nope, nope, nope.

      I think that this is a bad sign that you are working with somebody unable to be reasonable. Your question boils down to “I feel like I’m not pleasing my unreasonable boss.” Your position also sounds non-exempt, so he’s probably stretching the law to breakage here, and that may help you push back; “I’m concerned about the legal issues of my doing work off the clock as a non-exempt employee.”

      Ultimately, you may need to choose between pleasing the unreasonable boss and performing the job in a reasonable manner, which is a sucky choice. I might give it one gallant try for a discussion that boils down to “If you return to giving me work during our scheduled times that will be more effective than continuing to try to contact me for illegal unpaid work,” but a guy who’s annoyed that you were in the bathroom probably isn’t going to change his behavior.

      1. MuseumMusings*

        Thank you! I’ve actually been logging my time whenever I’m doing something outside of normal office hours and nobody’s complained yet, so at least I’m getting paid for my time. There’s also the fact that I’m the only hourly worker in the entire company, which I think my boss forgets sometime.

        The thing is, he’s never had an executive assistant, I’ve never been an executive assistant, and I think the both of us are floundering a little with what exactly is expected. All the articles I look at for working with a boss that’s never had an EA are all like “wow her with your talents that you’ve practiced” and most of the articles on being an EA are like “pay attention to your boss and do things without her asking” but it’s hard to do when you have no experience and your boss won’t even talk to you about expectations. This is my first non-temping office job and I really don’t want to mess up.

        What do you do when bosses are avoiding even acknowledging that there’s a problem? Is there a way to address this, even?

        1. Anna Held*

          I’d say meet and say that you’ve noticed that your communication styles are out of sync. Frame it that it’s not a personality conflict, it’s just an adjustment for both of you. Figure out how you both want it to work. (I’d remind him that you have a lot of different new duties, and check in that everything’s getting covered, too, while you have his attention.) This may not work with this guy, but at least you tried. Write up what you’ve agreed on and email it to him, asking “do I have this right?” so you have confirmation as to how you’ll move forward. He might be relieved to work this out too.

          And in this meeting, do remind him that you’re the only one who’s hourly! With your new duties he might want to change that. Push back against getting called on your time off, too, especially at another job (if that’s bothering you sufficiently).

          Hey, you got a raise, and they’re trusting you with new duties. You’re doing something right!

  172. Nonprofit face palm*

    I had a horrendous interview last night and it was completely my fault. I’m usually very good in interviews to the point where I have previously received job offers on the first interview. BUT – for some reason last night I just froze on a question, gave a completely inappropriate answer, and internally flipped out as my mouth just kept going with a word salad so complex and nonsensical that it was painful. And I’m not even exaggerating – it was literally “why do you think the business our non-profit is in is important”- and what came out of my mouth started with “It’s not” and kept going. Seriously. Can’t recover. Can’t even fathom where this came from or where I was going with it. It was HORRIBLE. And then it got WORSE with the next couple of questions – I couldn’t regroup myself at all. So – interview blown.

    Having never tanked so badly, I don’t even know what to say on the thank you email I haven’t sent yet. I’m so embarrassed and humiliated. I’ve been in non-profit for decades, I’m not new to working or this business. I should have easily handled these questions. At best I look like a total flake, at worst – completely incompetent. But be that as it may, hopefully I’ll never see these folks again. But still, I need to send a thank you today, right? But what the heck do I say?

    1. Camellia*

      Hmm. You might consider just thanking them for their time and then withdrawing your candidacy, maybe say it isn’t a good fit? Not necessarily true when you started the interview but now it sort of is?

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Don’t withdraw if you want the job!

        Source: thought I tanked in the interview for my current job.

        1. Nonprofit face palm*

          I’m not going to withdraw, that’s too formal for this situation, it’s a small community organization. I just honestly don’t know what to say in my email. Normally I would thank them for the meeting and have a few sentences about something that came up in the discussion. But this? Do I apologize? Try to double down on my comment with something like this particular sector (religious education) isn’t important for many people and the development challenge is to focus first on support from the natural stakeholders and build within that community before even trying to move outward? Or after this complete meltdown just say thank you, it was nice meeting you and learning more about your organization, period?

          Wow, I feel like such a fool. It was laughably bad.

    2. Lily Rowan*

      It’s not a bad idea to “reiterate” why you think their business is so important in your thank-you note, but in general you never know how you came across! It might not have been as bad as you think.

    3. Fabulous*

      Hmm… Maybe something like this?

      “Thank you for taking the time to interview me. I wanted to expand on my answer to your question on why religious education is important. I’ve been thinking about the answer I gave, and I fear I came across that I didn’t believe in your mission – which is not the case at all! I understand that nowadays there is a focus more on non-secular education. Therefore, there is a development challenge to focus first on support from the natural stakeholders and build within that community before even trying to move outward.” Etc….

      1. N*

        Thanks for the advice, everyone. Your wording was great and I used some of that for my late thank you. I spent the weekend agonizing over the whole thing instead of just sending it, but I finally got it over with and can now move on and try to forget it. The thoughtfulness of everyone on this site is wonderful and much appreciated!

  173. JulieBulie*

    I’m mostly venting, but I’m open to commiseration and advice as well…

    Among our benefits, my employer offers discounted auto insurance with the Snoopy company. I don’t want it. In fact, if it was on our open enrollment form, then I explicitly turned it down.) Nevertheless, every couple of months I get a mailing from them.

    I get lots of junk mail, and although it’s annoying and wasteful, most of it is easy to identify, and it’s easy to send it directly to the recycle bin. Unfortunately, I can’t identify these mailings from SnoopyLife Insurance because it doesn’t say Snoopy on the envelope. It says Teapots Inc. (That’s my employer!) It even has the teapot logo!

    (To clarify, I’m not sure if it’s my employer that’s sending the stuff on behalf of Snoopy, or if my employer has given Snoopy permission to use their name.)

    That really pisses me off. I resent being tricked into processing junk mail because it’s disguised as a legitimate employer communication.

    (Just for the record – my employer does do at-home mailings from time to time, so I really can’t ignore these. And they’re not always the same kind of envelope, etc., so there’s no way to guess what’s inside.)

    On another note, one of my coworkers said that he could see Friday in my face. I *think* that was a compliment! :-)

    1. Here we go again*

      Is your end goal to get the communications to stop or do you want them to just identify the SnoopyCompany on the envelope? It’s possible your employer has some kind of solicitation agreement with them and then there may not be much you can do. It doesn’t hurt to call SnoopyCompany and ask that they stop sending you these mailings.

      1. SophieChotek*

        I agree. Once you open the mailing, and get the corporate number from Snoopy I think you should be able to end communications. My credit union and my university’s alumni association had similar programs; I called both insurance companies and got off both lists in the typical 8-12 week fashion.

      2. JulieBulie*

        Yeah, I’m sure they have an agreement. Our STD and/or LTD and/or AD&D is through Snoopy too.

        My end goal would be to EITHER get them to stop, or have them put Snoopy on the envelope; I don’t care which.

        More to the point, I would have preferred that my employer had not shared employee info with vendors for marketing purposes. (Then again, I have STD/LTD/AD&D, so maybe Snoopy already had all the employee info they needed.) It would be nice if they offered a simple way to opt out.

        I guess I will call Snoopy.
        (I really wish the company hadn’t used Snoopy as their mascot.)

  174. Anon Again*

    What is the point of a recruiter? I’ve had contact with some and yet I’ve never received a call about a job. Some of them are really pushy and are all, “You need to get this to me today!Hurry! Hurry!” Some I’ve talked to and then they disappear and I never hear from them again. What’s the deal?

    I admire people who can magically transition form job to job, with no or little gap. Been looking for a job for almost a year now and it stinks. My field doesn’t help either, but man, it’s tough.

  175. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

    What do you do when your lunch group slowly morphs into the “table of gossips and mean people”? We’ve had some new hires who have completely changed the dynamic of my lunch table. It’s clique-y, gossipy, mean spirited, etc. I’m not sure if I should say something in the moment or just try to avoid them at lunch time. Anyone have any suggestions?

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      As someone who always needed to leave the office and not be around people at lunch, I recommend slowly easing yourself and eating lunch elsewhere. Those who feel the same will follow you and the Mean Girls will be left at the table.

      Or, anytime someone says something mean spirited, act confused.

      “I don’t understand. Alba is always extremely helpful.”

      “I haven’t found that to be the case.”

      “That’s a little unfair, don’t you think?”

      People generally push back against that, although reading this website lets me know that some people do, so it’s up to you how you want to deal with it.

      Good luck though.

    2. Manders*

      This is the nuclear option, but a friend of mine once shocked our group out of our nasty streak just by saying bluntly, “Hey, we make fun of X a lot, and it’s getting pretty mean. Can we stop that?”

      We were on study abroad and had an end date on how long we’d all be living and working in such close proximity, so he didn’t have much to lose just by putting it all on the table. If you do need to preserve your reputation in the office, I agree with Foreign Octopus that it might be better to just fade away from the toxic people.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I like the nuclear option though!

        It must have been fiercely uncomfortable after that was said.

        1. Manders*

          It was! But sometimes making people uncomfortable is just putting the discomfort back where it belongs. I’m glad he did it and it did make me reconsider about how I was behaving.

  176. EnviroEducator*

    I occasionally lead international travel programs for groups of high school or college students, as the co-leader and chaperone with a second primary leader. The trips are 8-14 days, and involve volunteer work, conservation education, and activities like zip-lining, horseback riding, swimming and beach or hot springs visits, etc. Everybody bonds, and I often end up going to the kids’ grad parties, acting as references for them later, etc. I’m in my late twenties and female. The question: can I wear my normal bathing suit (bikini, but as non-skimpy as bikinis get) during said beach/hot spring/pool visits, or should I purchase a more discreet one-piece?

    1. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

      I think it depends entirely on your area’s/schools’ culture. I have two immediate family members who teach in public schools; neither of them would wear a bikini while in a position of being associated with the school.
      But, honestly, I think I’d get a more conservative suit, and bring the bikini as well, so then after the first trip, you may see that your bikini wouldn’t be a big deal. Or ask the co-leader, or someone with more experience going on these trips, if that’s an option.

  177. De Minimis*

    I’m having my usual summer stress dealing with a temp that I didn’t really want to hire. As usual, there’s not enough work, so they are idle much of the time and I have to work on finding things for them to do. They are nice and are capable, but I know they are bored and may sometimes be frustrated. Our work tends to be sporadic, and summer can be a slow time. We get behind in one area primarily, and once that is mostly caught up I really struggle to keep the person occupied for the rest of the summer. I’ve tried getting them involved in doing a lot of the work I normally do, but then that gives me less to do.

    Assuming I’m still working here next year [looking like a safe assumption] I’m going to push back next summer and really try to avoid hiring anyone, or failing that, try to hire someone to only come in part-time. This has happened the last two summers. My boss tells me to hire a temp but leaves it on me to find work for them to do, he rarely provides anything for them.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Part-time temp seems like a good solution to me, if possible, if you must hire someone. (Would it be too much if you did not hire anyone at all–would you get stuck with everything?)

      1. De Minimis*

        I think if we could not get so behind during the rest of the year, it would be okay if I did all of it [I’m technically the only employee in the department other than my manager.]

        The issue is that we normally hire student workers during the school year to take on the role of the temp—mainly helping with clerical stuff, stuffing envelopes, and doing credit card reconciliation. We’re a non-profit and our finance manager has an extremely convoluted system for credit card reconciliation–that along with a couple of key employees who do not turn in receipts on a timely basis often means the reconciliations are at least 6 months behind by the time we reach summer. We’ve also had difficulty retaining student employees over the past school year which hasn’t helped. I’m hopeful that we may have consistent coverage this next school year. If we can avoid getting behind, hopefully we can do without having anyone here next summer, or maybe hire a part-time temp.

        We can’t do much about the people not turning stuff in, they are both in senior management. They eventually do turn things in, but they see nothing wrong with going several months without doing so.

        I think my boss does not like that I can’t utilize people more, but there’s only so much work and so much that they are able to do.

  178. CheckCasher*

    I have scenario I’d like to run past the community since I’ve been running it through my head thinking if I should have done something different. This all happened about a month ago, so its less “what should I do?” and more of a “should I have done something else?’

    I work at a grocery store as a bookkeeper. One of my tasks is processing checks. Employees are allowed to cash their paycheck with us each week, and with manager approval may also cash personal checks. One of the store managers however, was taking this to an extreme. Every Saturday night he would come and cash multiple checks written out for about $3,000 in total. The questionable part is instead of cashing them immediately, as is policy, he would instruct me to give him the $3k in cash that night, and to put the checks in the safe without running them though the machine. The checks were written out for several days later. The morning/head bookkeeper helped out in this arrangement and would take the checks and then cash them on the days written out. So in other words, he was taking $3k in cash every Saturday, but not “paying” for it until a few days later.

    Being my first job, I was hesitant to bring this up with anyone. My direct manager (the head bookkeeper) was clearly OK with the arrangement, so the only person I could report this to was the head store manager. I let it go and did as I was told for several months but felt dirty being a part of it. Eventually, one night I messed up and cashed the checks that night. I apologized to him, but the gig was up. A week later he was on an involuntary vacation as they investigated. The head bookkeeper even called me at home and instructed me that, should I be interviewed, to lie and claim I never held a check for him. Luckily, the interrogations happened on my day off and I slipped through the cracks by chance. A few days later he quietly moved to another location and replaced with no official statement, and a new policy capping personal checks to $200.

    Should I have spoken up sooner? The manager was already making me feel uncomfortable at work (racist comments, overly personal jokes, etc), and was the type to happily brag about how he makes work difficult to people he had petty grudges against, so I was very afraid of retaliation. I had considered trying to make an anonymous report to HR, but since only a few people were in on it, I would have been found out immediately.

    What would some of you have done?

    1. Beth Anne*

      Oh man that is so fishy! As a bookkeeper myself I don’t know what I would have done b/c I’m also non-confrontational..especially if it involved going over your direct bosses head. But I would know what was going on was wrong.

      The weird thing is that obviously something must have been out of balance in the deposits if he had taken the cash but the checks hadn’t been deposited. I think changing the personal check cashing at $200 was a good move on the company.

    2. JulieBulie*

      Wow. It was pretty stupid of the head bookkeeper to play along with this, but I guess he and the store manager were in it together?

      I’ve never been a bookkeeper, nor worked for a grocery store, so I can’t say for sure what I would have done in your shoes. But if I knew the store’s owners and felt comfortable approaching them, I’d probably do that (and only later realize that I may have exposed myself to retaliation). Otherwise, if I could gather some evidence, I’d send it to the owners.

      But I wouldn’t do it anonymously; if I’m a bookkeeper too, I might come under suspicion if this thing gets caught by someone else. Might as well be the one to blow the whistle.

      If I were too afraid to tell the owners or anyone at all (sounds like HR might not have been a helpful option), I’d try to get out of there ASAP while also taking pains to keep my hands clean so as not to be accused of anything. Actually, I’d be trying to get out of there anyway, because I couldn’t stand being around a manager like that.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      This sounds incredibly dodgy. I would like to think I would have refused to do it – told them to either run it now or come back for the cash in a few days – but I know it isn’t necessarily that easy in reality.

    4. Rebecca*

      This sounds like some sort of money laundering scheme to me, and I can’t think of any legit reasons he’d need to do this week in and week out. It’s like he’s trying to show he’s writing checks to the grocery store, but getting the cash back for himself. Inquiring minds want to know! I wonder if he’s getting a divorce and is trying to hide money, but seriously, $3K a week to a grocery store?

      1. Natalie*

        Probably not money laundering. When laundering money, you’re trying to disguise the *source* of illicitly obtained wealth, by pushed it through some kind of less trackable cash based business (such as, amusingly, a laundromat). This little technique of his wouldn’t accomplish that.

        Assuming “personal check” means a check written to the grocery store against the manager’s own account, this is a type of fraud called kiting. Basically, he’s counting the same $3,000 twice – it’s in his hands, in cash, and it’s still sitting in his checking account because the check hasn’t been cashed yet. A few days later, some other money has deposited into his account (such as his paycheck) and the checks he’s written are covered by that deposit. It’s essentially using a checking account as a short term loan, when it’s actually a negotiable instrument and not credit.

        As to why, the most likely reason is that he’s basically terrible at managing his money and can’t wait a couple of days until his paycheck gets deposited. But he could also be gambling or something with the cash, and hoping he’ll win enough to make good on the checks he’s written.

        1. Rebecca*

          Thanks for explaining, that makes sense. Even so, that’s a lot of expenses to float on a weekly basis! I vote for gambling.

    5. Natalie*

      The head bookkeeper even called me at home and instructed me that, should I be interviewed, to lie and claim I never held a check for him. Luckily, the interrogations happened on my day off and I slipped through the cracks by chance.

      You say this is your first job so I hope this doesn’t sound to scolding or anything like that, but: particularly if you continue in any kind of financial or accounting field, you have to be willing to run shady shit like this up the chain to higher level bosses. The minute someone is directly telling you to lie is the point when you do the exact opposite.

      It’s not just ethics, although that’s not unimportant. But participating in these kinds of schemes puts you directly at risk, too, even if your just doing what your boss tells you to.

    6. CheckCasher*

      Thanks for the responses everyone. It felt good just to get it off my chest and hear others takes on it.
      Unfortunately we may never find out what all that money was being used for since management is keeping quiet. (one explanation I heard was that he was depositing it in his son’s account to use while away at college, but that seemed more like speculation or a cover.)

      Natalie, thanks for the advice. Its a pretty good rule of thumb to remember in case I ever end up in a similar situation. Although I should mention that had I actually been brought in for questioning, I was gonna sing like a canary. I had no intention of letting him get away with it or implicating myself by covering for him.

      At the very least I can now happily say the store is now a much better environment and actually pleasant to be at. I used to dread going to work, but I’ve found it is much more enjoyable without his negativity draining everyone. Thank you all again.

      1. Observer*

        It’s not even a matter of letting him get away with it. Odds are that you would get punished along with the perpetrator if you had lied.

  179. MiloSpiral*

    I have a question about recommendation etiquette, sparked by this question (askamanager(DOT)org/2017/02/my-friend-tried-to-strong-arm-her-way-into-a-promotion(DOT)html). In the question, Sansa doesn’t let Arya know that she turned down the position that Arya recommended her for. (By the way, if you haven’t read that question, *please* do–it’s intense!) I get why Arya would feel upset and used seeing as Sansa used the job offer as leverage at her current workplace, but I don’t understand why it’s important to let the person who recommended you know that you didn’t take the job. Based on how Alison and commenters reacted to it, it seems like it was a big faux pas–why? Like Sansa, I am young and very new to the working world; it would be good to get some feedback on this so I don’t make a similar mistake!

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      In the case you’re talking about, it wasn’t so much that Sansa didn’t take the job, it was the manner in how she handled it. Sansa deliberately used Arya as a way to leverage a better deal at her current job without any intention of taking the other job. It was a crappy way to use someone who you asked to risk their professional reputation, and any recommendation is a risk, even if it’s a small one.

      As for your question about informing the person who recommended you about not taking the job, it falls into the category of good manners and not burning bridges.

      This person has gone to the trouble of recommending you for a job and putting you before a hiring manager. Typically, they’ll talk well about you and give you a foot in the door that other candidates don’t have. It’s effort and time on their part. I’m always disinclined to recommend people because I’ve seen it backfire first hand, although I’ll give my opinion if I’m asked.

      The point is that if you’ve gone through all of that trouble and then learn that the job was offered and refused and then heard nothing from the person, it feels cold and rude. It also means that they won’t recommend you again. However, if you reach out, say thank, and explain why you didn’t take the job (it was different to what I expected, the salary was too low, etc) then they’ll appreciate that and will feel less used.

      Hope that helps.

      Also, unless you’re the Sansa type (which I doubt), I really don’t think you’ll be making that mistake.

      1. MiloSpiral*

        Thanks, that makes a lot of sense! When I read your description of how it might have felt on Arya’s end, I made a sympathetic “hmm” sound; you can save a lot of face by explaining why, and it seems weird if you find out that someone didn’t take a job you recommended them for and you have no idea why! Like, “why would you ask me to personally recommend you if you didn’t really care about getting an offer in the first place?”

        And, thanks for that last bit :) I certainly hope not!

        1. Foreign Octopus*

          Exactly!

          Good luck with your career. You sound like you’re going to be great.

  180. Hakky Chan*

    Long time reader, second time commenter!

    I’ve been looking to leave my current admin position for something for more growth opportunities. I’ve been searching for about two years, but haven’t had any bites in more than a year. Now, this week, two interviews!

    Just finished the second one, now to play the waiting game.

    Thanks to everyone Alison, and everyone that comments here. I’ve learned so much about good workplace practices from you all.

  181. CM*

    For years, the women in my group have been going out for lunches once every month or two, mainly to celebrate birthdays. There are mostly women and a few men in my group, but the men are much more senior except one. I feel weird about him being left out. I mentioned it to a couple of the other women and was told that the men can organize their own lunches if they want. I’m not sure if he’s aware of the lunches. I’ve thought about just inviting him along to the next one but that might annoy people. In general, I’m not crazy about single-gender activities at work but this has been happening since long before I arrived. So maybe I should just leave it alone. What would you do?

    1. MiloSpiral*

      Ugh, what a weird, annoying practice! It would be one thing if this were a designated safe space for women to talk about women’s issues, but a birthday lunch? Seems weird. And few things feel worse than being arbitrarily left out!

      Seeing as you already tried the, “Hey, maybe we should invite Lawrence” tactic and they were unwilling to do so, so it seems like it’s up to you to decide whether you want to participate in these lunches or not. Inviting him without telling anyone could invite some resentment and blowback, especially if they have a good reason for not inviting him (e.g., his behavior towards one of the women makes them all uncomfortable, or they tried inviting him once and he drank too much and made it a bad and embarrassing time). If you’re not sure he’s aware of the lunches, definitely don’t *make* him aware, but decide whether or not your uncomfortable feelings weigh out the positive interactions you may have at birthday lunches.

      If you *do* decide to opt out, you can also decide how direct you want to be about your decision. “I’ve actually already eaten, but thanks for inviting me!” “I’m all set, but thanks anyway!” are good options, or if you really want you can say, “It makes me pretty uncomfortable that we don’t invite Lawrence to these lunches, so I’ve decided not to go.” Of course, that may come off as unnecessarily moralistic, and I’m not sure of what benefit would come from being so direct, but it’s the risk you run.

      Good luck!

    2. JulieBulie*

      Are you saying that the men have lunches, but exclude Wakeen, and that’s why you’re worried about him feeling left out?

      Or do you mean the men don’t do lunches at all?

      Either way, it sounds like Wakeen has no one to go to lunch with because all of his coworkers are either women or senior men.

      It would be a nice gesture to invite him to the women’s lunch, but it sounds like they’re not open to the idea, and the other men might tease him about it.

      If you know and like him and it wouldn’t be weird, you could go to lunch with him yourself, maybe with a couple of other people. That’s probably what I would do. But keep in mind that he might be okay with lunching alone, too, and don’t be offended if he doesn’t want to join you.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Yeah, it’s a bit weird. If I were you I’d ask Wakeen if he’d like to go, and if he does want to go, then I’d bring him along with the group. It might be just a bit awkward at first, but as long as Wakeen behaves (and I don’t see any reason why he wouldn’t) then there shouldn’t be any problem. Over time, there will probably be other men at lower levels in your group. You might as well start embracing the change now.

  182. ..Kat..*

    Hi AAMers.
    TL;DR – just received a really crappy yearly evaluation from a new manager who was not my manager during the period I am being evaluated for. WTF?

    Longer version: I currently have a temporary “travelling manager.” This is a manager who fills in short term for a unit’s manager who has left for another position. These travelling managers work at a place for a few months, but definitely less than a year. So, my previous manager left as of the end of December 2016. A wonderful opportunity fell in her lap and she did not want to pass it up. But, my old manager was not able to finish my evaluation for 2016 before she left. As such, my travelling manager has done my evaluation. It does not help that she has barely said five sentences to me in the 5 months she has been here before she did my evaluation.

    Most of the feedback is untrue. I have not had feedback alleging these things before. But, I don’t want to be that jerk that can’t listen and take feedback. After all, I am not perfect. And if I can improve, I definitely want to do so. Because, she is getting this stuff from somewhere (at least I assume so. My husband says maybe not). Seriously, she is telling me in my evaluation that “..Kat.. thinks…” She does not know what I think. She is not a mind reader. And neither is anyone else that I work with. She also says I never tell anyone thank you. This is just not true; I appreciate and thank my coworkers multiple times a day. And the “..Kat.. thinks…” seems to me to be a crap way to give feedback. Do good managers actually give feedback this way? Anyway, in my response, I am asking for clarification and examples “so that I can better understand the feedback and improve.” Is this a good way to word this?

    After I showed my evaluation and my response to my husband, he gave me the feedback that I was not pushing back against this hard enough. I asked for his thoughts because I grew up in a toxic family and have a couple of toxic bosses in my past. And as a member of the AAM conglomerate, I realize that this has screwed up my thinking as to what is an appropriate response/pushback. I often question myself. So I added the following:
    “Finally, I think this is an inappropriate evaluation:
    -it does not give examples.
    -no feedback was given to me in the months before my manager wrote the evaluation. None of this has been brought to my attention before. A good manager gives feedback not long after a problem happens, not as a surprise in a yearly evaluation.
    -with the comment “..Kat… thinks…” she has made this a personal attack that indicates animosity towards me. This colors the rest of her feedback. A subjective statement such as this is simply inappropriate in an evaluation.”

    And finally, this is very discouraging to me. To assume that at least one person I work with thinks such awful things about me and my character. I work hard to do a good job, get along well with my co-workers, and help others with their tasks as I am able.

    It does help to know that she has not singled me out – she has done this to other nurses that I work with.

    I have not officially replied to my evaluation yet. What are AAMers thoughts?

    Thank you for reading this long post. Thank you in advance for your advice.

    1. Kim Possible*

      Sorry to hear about your evaluation. Ideally, you would have pushed back at the time of the review, but I understand that you were probably caught off guard.

      Actually, now that I’m reading your post again – was this review even done in person? Or, was it sent to you via email? For instance you mention that you added the following:

      “Finally, I think this is an inappropriate evaluation:
      -it does not give examples.
      -no feedback was given to me in the months before my manager wrote the evaluation. None of this has been brought to my attention before. A good manager gives feedback not long after a problem happens, not as a surprise in a yearly evaluation.
      -with the comment “..Kat… thinks…” she has made this a personal attack that indicates animosity towards me. This colors the rest of her feedback. A subjective statement such as this is simply inappropriate in an evaluation.”

      Are these things that you are discussing with her in person, or sending to her in an email or letter? Either way, I would suggest requesting to meet with her again for clarification – you could even bring a note sheet with you so that you don’t forget anything that you’re wanting to discuss further with her.

      Anyway, I think you’re points are all perfectly valid (however, I wouldn’t specifically say that “a good manager gives feedback soon after the problem happens”, even though it’s true. I would say “ideally, I would have liked more immediate feedback so I could actively work on improving any issues.” That way, it doesn’t sound like you’re attacking her management skills.) I would also make sure to begin the conversation by saying that you are receptive to feedback and want to actively improve, but that you have several questions regarding some of the feedback that she gave you.

      I definitely understanding feeling discouraged by the feedback. I once worked remotely in an office that was a thousand miles from my manager. She was very hands off, deflected any questions I had, and was usually unreachable. However, when it came time for reviews, she gave me an awful review. One thing she pointed out in my review is that I had “poor Microsoft Excel skills.” I’m actually very good in Excel, and was given no indication as to why she would think that. The whole review was demeaning and I felt like my character was being questioned. Sometimes, managers are just really, really crappy. It seems like this may be the case with your manager based on the fact that you say she’s done this to other nurses. Keep your head up, and don’t be afraid to push back in a respectful way.

      1. Imaginary Number*

        I second asking for a meeting and I think your phrasing of “I’d like to understand the feedback better and improve” is a very safe way to go at it.

        Be prepared for her to do everything to avoid that meeting. If she couldn’t even give you these comments in person, there’s probably a reason. I would be specific about the timeline in your request. If you’re in the sort of workplace where you can put yourself on other people’s calendars, do that. If she keeps refusing to hold the meeting or cancels at the last minute, that would be a sign it’s time to take it higher.

      2. ..Kat..*

        Thank you KP. I like your wording. This evaluation has been done by computer. When I talk about my response, I am talking about typing up a response in a Word document that I will cut and paste into the reply spaces of the evaluation once I am happy with my response. I want my response to be measured and well-thought-out.

    2. Imaginary Number*

      I agree with you that “Kat thinks” is an odd construct for an evaluation, although it’s hard to say for sure without the specific thing she’s accusing you of. For example “Kat thinks she’s better than everyone else” is a hugely inappropriate subjective statement while something like “Kat thinks she can leave early when no one else does” is more along the lines of an oddly worded statement about a particular observed behavior.

      “Kat never tells anyone thank you” is also a weird statement. First of all, it doesn’t sound like she’s around enough to observe whether or not you thank people. Secondly, I agree with your comment that a lack of specifics makes that a strange conclusion. It could be made up. Or it could be she’s the sort of person who assumes that one instance where you didn’t say thank you when she thought you should makes for “never.”

      The one thing I don’t think is a problem is the fact that she’s doing your evaluation after only 5 months. That’s nearly half the year and in my experience that happens a lot. However, it sounds like she hasn’t been a particularly involved manager. Either because that’s her style or she’s really taken a dislike to you for some reason.

      Other than the “she thinks you’re ungrateful” bit, what can you summarize about what she thinks of you from the other comments she made?

      1. ..Kat..*

        She says I think I am better than everyone else and I think horrible things about my coworkers. Which could not be farther from the truth!

        1. Imaginary Number*

          Wow …

          Can you please submit this to AAM as a question? Because I can’t imagine any situation where it’s appropriate for a manager to say that “Kat thinks horrible thinks about her coworkers.” That’s just … no.

    3. Imaginary Number*

      Btw … I really wish this was a separate AAM comment because I’m very curious about how this turns out!

      2. ..Kat..*

        I will update in a later Friday post. I am hesitant to meet with her one on one. Another nurse (who is a wonderful nurse- and well loved by patients and their families) pushed back in person, and this manager has reigned down retribution on her. The only reason this nurse didn’t transfer to another unit is because we know the temporary manager will be gone in another month and a half.

    4. JulieBulie*

      I am requesting clarification and examples so that I can better understand the feedback and improve. This wording is perfect.

      Some unsolicited comments on your other remarks:

      For A good manager gives feedback not long after
      I would say “It is helpful to give feedback soon after”

      Do NOT say “good manager” or “bad manager”! (You said in another remark that you don’t want “subjective” statements – but “good” and “bad” are subjective.)

      Statements that begin “..Kat.. thinks…” are speculative and inaccurate. We have not discussed my thoughts. These comments suggest that she has made assumptions about my [character/work ethic/competence/whatever]. These assumptions color the rest of her feedback.

      Do not accuse her of animosity even if it drips from every word of your review. The animosity should be clear enough to anyone else who reads the review, even if you don’t point it out. Accusing her of animosity is very similar to saying “JudgyBoss thinks…”, so let her have that one all to herself.

      Also don’t say that subjective statements are inappropriate for an evaluation, because most reviews are by necessity very subjective. Honestly, it sounds as though your boss’s statements are more like prejudicial, but there’s no need to use that word either. The fact that she’s telling people what you supposedly think is a clear indication.

      I had a jerk boss who personally disliked me. He wrote a really horrifying review. I had to (or thought I had to) sign it with my comments on the day that I received it. All I wrote was “I disagree.” I’ve been mentally rewriting that one ever since.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Thank you. I like your wording. I can struggle with wording sometimes. She definitely does not like me. Although she does not talk to me directly, she says snarky stuff under her breath around me.

    5. Mephyle*

      I just want to add to the good advice above that you can be explicit about which things contained in the evaluation are simply not true. For example, She also says I never tell anyone thank you. This is just not true; I appreciate and thank my coworkers multiple times a day. And other examples, if there are more. In fact, I think this is a more powerful rebuttal than the third point you mention.

    6. JulieBulie*

      I was thinking about this in the car, and it occurred to me that if she writes a lot of her employee evaluations like this, you and your coworkers will not be the ones who look bad. She will.

      Statements like the ones you quoted are indicative of an immature and/or inexperienced manager. “..Kat.. thinks” is really inappropriate speculation; “..Kat..’s behavior indicates that she may believe” would come across as an observation (if she gave examples of the behavior).

      And “never thanks anyone” is ridiculously petty for an annual review. If you had a record of insulting people or snubbing them when they helped you, THAT would be annual review material.

      All of what you mention sounds like stuff that should not have waited for an annual review. Give the reply that you feel is prudent, but my personal instinct would be to keep it brief, pointed, and rather mild. Let her own words speak for themselves. If her managers are any good and if they care about this stuff, they will see that her words reveal more about her than they do about her staff.

      PLEASE keep us posted!

        1. Anna Held*

          I’d definitely push back. And read the employee manual on stuff like retaliation and whether you have an ombudsman. This is strange and bad for a variety of reasons. I agree that you should try to find out other coworkers’ experience; maybe go above her head. Retaliation is pretty horrifying!

  183. AliceBD*

    Thank you to Alison and all of the commenters! Today was my last day (left early, which is common) at the company I’ve been at for 4.5 years. In two weeks I’ll be starting at a new company that will give me the ability to grow my skills, learn a new industry that is more stable long-term, and get a 19% raise. In the meantime I’ll be moving 300 miles which will put me in the same city as relatives and friends and an easy day trip to my parents rather than hours away from anyone I have a history with. I couldn’t have done it without your excellent advice and encouragement!

  184. Fluffer Nutter*

    Is it standard for salaried jobs now to send you hiring paperwork, etc. to do unpaid before you start? I negotiated a few days off between jobs to take care of some things and go camping (no internet). Today I got an email to the effect that they have some forms and activities for me to do in the days before I start, and my first couple weeks. I don’t mind doing hiring ppwk beforehand for a hour, (although I don’t love the precedent) and I don’t want to get off on the wrong foot, but I’m not going to be able to dedicate a lot of time before I start. I rarely check my job search email once I have a job so it’s a fluke I even saw it. How would people handle this?

    1. anon24*

      My last hourly job made me do all that ahead of time, unpaid. Took me about 2 hours. I was p-o’d when I got there my first day and they said yeah we actually don’t have access to that, only corporate does, and so I had to redo most of it!!!

    2. Halls of Montezuma*

      For us, definitely, but all things that are required to get your security clearance and initial computer access moving so that you can actually do work before week 4.

      1. over educated*

        Yeah, same for my place of work, and the security clearance paperwork was extensive and time-consuming…but necessary.

        I would just be very clear with them that “between x dates, I will be away without internet or phone access,” get what you can done when you’re not camping, and check your job search email regularly until you start.

  185. Viridian*

    Does anyone have any advice for job hunters dealing with anxiety and thinking that they’re being a bit too picky with their applications?

    I’ve been unemployed for 6 months now and trying to look for work outside of customer service (I’ve been working in that area for 7 years). The two things I won’t budge on are: (1) my commute on public transit can’t be more than an hour one way and (2) no retail jobs (I’ve had a really bad experience working in this area and would prefer not to go back into that field). I’ve had few problems finding opportunities with the latter but the former seems to be a problem, often times being contract jobs. I’m getting really frustrated because my job search buddy just told me she found a job yesterday and I feel like I’m not doing enough even though I’ve been networking, meeting with a guide for career resources and applying for jobs (along with looking for volunteer opportunities). I think my anxiety around writing cover letters is a hurdle but I’m feeling really hopeless and want to give up at this point since I feel like I’ll be stuck in contract land forever. :/ Any advice?

    1. JulieBulie*

      No advice as such, but an anecdote.

      I was unemployed for six months. I made it a personal goal to apply to two legitimate jobs per week. Some weeks that was easy; other weeks it was virtually impossible. I labored and agonized over every word of my cover letters, even though most of my cover letters ended up being nearly identical.

      It was 4 pm Friday on a bad week when I found my second opportunity on Craigslist. I had somewhere to go and it didn’t seem likely I’d get the job anyway, so the entire text of my “cover letter” was “I have no experience in aviation, but I am interested in it. My resume is attached.”

      That’s the job I ended up getting. It sucked. So, maybe not a great example. But it taught me that sometimes it doesn’t pay to stress out. I’ve been told that I “try too hard,” and that might have been holding me back.

      1. JulieBulie*

        Oh sorry – that was all meant to address your anxiety over cover letters. But the other stuff – the one-hour commute and the no retail – that seems reasonable to me. It’s very good to have solid criteria for picking/rejecting things. It’s up to you if you think you need to cast a wider net, but if you do, you should still be firm about your boundaries.

        Are you also dismissing all customer service jobs? Is it possible that you wouldn’t hate customer service in a slightly different industry? Or perhaps there’s something that includes customer service, but has other duties/competencies as well so that you can add the other stuff to your resume?

        1. Viridian*

          Hi Julie,

          Yeah, I’m becoming more open to positions that have a customer service component but I don’t want that to be the *only* part of my position if that makes any sense.

          I also don’t feel too bad about having off weeks now since you mentioned it and I’m not alone in dealing with those roadblocks.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      One thing to remember is that just because you apply for a job and have an interview for a job, doesn’t mean you have to accept the job. Sometimes Anxiety-Brain tells us that we are committing to this huge thing and it would be a big deal, but people turn down jobs all the time.

      I wouldn’t commit to something you know for sure you wouldn’t accept, but applying to a few things where you are not sure is not a failure. It’s just a compromise. That’s okay.

      Good luck! Anxiety-Brain has a way of getting in the way of these things, but sometimes we have to just push through.

      1. JulieBulie*

        Ooh! That’s a good point. Also, is there any chance that the kind of work you do could be done from home, at least part time? If so, you can expand your search to places that are more than an hour away, and if you interview with them/get an offer, find out if you can work from home on some of those days. (Assuming the longer commute isn’t a problem if you don’thave to do it every day)

        1. Viridian*

          I’m willing to do a longer commute if it’s a part time position otherwise, I don’t know how to cope. Honestly, the ideal situation is to find something part time, have a day for my bi-weekly appointments along with finding a new hobby (my counsellor recommended this) and maybe volunteering/taking a course since I honestly don’t know what I want my career path to look like 5 years from now.

      2. Viridian*

        Yeah, I think the main problem for me is my brain interprets everything related to the job hunt as make-it-or-break it territory and it makes everything more scary for me. I’m going to try and work on at least one application this weekend and then try to apply to one job per day and We’ll see how it goes. I’m just frustrated because I know I’m need of money and I could apply to a customer service job and have more to choose from but the last CSR/seasonal job I had was awful. Like, there were two days I came home crying from a shift and I was tired all the time which is why I want an office job (the last contract was a physical job) but there’s not much entry level work in my city for now. I guess I’m also worried about the gap on my resume even though I have positions listed by year. :/

  186. I'd rather be blue*

    I just finished my yearly performance review. I knew that I was getting a raise, but did not expect that I would be getting a title bump as well. However, the title they proposed has me a bit worried. They’re framing it as a bump up (and the responsibilities reflect that), but they’re moving me from Marketing and Communications Coordinator to Marketing and Communications Associate. Is it just me, or does Associate sound more junior? I’m worried about the title I have not representing my duties, which are basically to lead all design and communications, as well as execute everything marketing-related. Any thoughts? I’m worried that this will look like a downgrade on my resume.

    1. Kim Possible*

      I would tend to agree that Marketing and Communications Associate sounds more junior than Marketing Communications Coordinator.

      I suggest being upfront with your boss(es) and express your concern about the title not accurately representing your duties. Congrats on the raise and promotion!

      1. Lily Rowan*

        Places I’ve worked have gone Assistant-Coordinator-Associate, so there’s not a universal rule on that, and people should know it.

    2. Manders*

      Maybe my experience is with a weird subset of the marketing field, but people seem more concerned about what I accomplished and my skillset than my title. I moved from a position with “manager” in the title (in which I wasn’t managing people, I was handling web content) to one with “associate” in the title (which was a bump up in responsibility and pay, and while I don’t manage people I get to delegate a lot of grunt work to freelancers and a remote team).

    3. Rincat*

      To me, “coordinator” sounds more junior but I’m coming from the higher education world, where “coordinator” is typically one of the lowest positions. But still I’m surprised to find a few random “coordinators” across campus who have tons of responsibilities and make big paychecks.

      For what you’re describing though, I’d aim for “manager” or “director” since it sounds like you are leading things. If they won’t go for full-on director or something, maybe try “associate manager” or “associate director”?

    4. SL #2*

      To me, coordinator sounds like the more junior position (similar to “assistant”) but this varies between companies, not just industries.

    5. Toph*

      I’ve worked with companies that go Assistant, then Associate, as well as the reverse. I’ve seen coordinator equivalent to Associate. I’ve seen coordinator above Associate. It’s not at all consistent.

  187. Shayland*

    My dad thinks I should try to gain commissions of paintings of people’s pets by talking to the local animal shelters and my vet’s office. We’ve talked a bit about how this would work, but it has me really nervous. I’d love to know what people think of the idea.

    I could paint some of the pet’s in the shelter to be given away / sold upon the pet’s adoption, or I could just have flyer’s of my work. I’d want to give a cut to the shelter and vet’s office (which is part of a vet school) but yeah, the whole thing is really over whelming for me.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      What about having postcards or flyers to leave at your vet’s? I’d pick one up especially if I got a discount. My cat would never sit still for you though, you’d have to work from a photo!

      1. Shayland*

        That is the rout I was thinking for the vet’s office. And they do already have a wide mix of flyer’s and stuff in the waiting room so it doesn’t seem like it would be some sort of fopaux to pursue it.

        I’m glad to know at least one person in the world would be interested. :P

        1. Coffee Addict*

          Start an Instagram account with your pet art! I love looking at people’s pet portraits and I’m thinking about having one done of my sweethearts (just had a pet photo session so selling my partner on a pet portrait is going to take some time….), but it helps to see the artist’s style and examples of their work.

    2. atexit8*

      Make sure the local animal shelter is no-kill, or you will find that the nice dog you painted was euthanized for lack of space.

      1. Chaordic One*

        I disagree with this advice and I would not let it stop me from attempting to drum up business at a shelter.

        If, by chance, you paint a portrait of a nice animal that, unfortunately, ends up being euthanized and if people know about it, the painting might well stand as a poignant reminder of the importance of animal adoption.

  188. ginkgo*

    I just had a final phone interview with the CEO that was super fucking weird:

    -I waited until about 20 minutes after our scheduled time, emailed him (slightly nerve-wracking since the interview was set up by someone else and I hadn’t actually communicated with him) to see if we needed to reschedule, and he called me 30 seconds later
    -He asked me to tell him about myself, I did, then he asked if I had any questions for him, so I did and he answered it.
    -Then he rushed me off the phone saying he just liked to do a “pulse check”, and saying to contact him if I had any questions (I had more, but ok)

    Is this normal?! All my other communications with this company have been super professional and respectful of my time, so to me this doesn’t scream “crazy person” so much as “extremely busy person who can’t quite let go of being a part of the hiring process” (and the calendar invite was for an hourlong block of time, which makes me think his assistant knew he’d be busy and figured he would just call me anywhere within that timeframe)… but it was still a bit of a jolt! I’ve never done a founder or CEO interview before, so I have no idea how those usually go. I just want to do a gut check and make sure I’m not talking myself out of seeing any red flags…

    1. JulieBulie*

      I did a CEO interview once, and it was “extremely busy person who can’t quite let go of being a part of the hiring process”. Like he basically just wanted to see for himself that I didn’t have horns and a tail.

    2. Rincat*

      I had a short interview with my CIO as the last part of the process for my current job. He said he likes to do these for the final candidate just to make sure you would fit in with the culture. He asked me more about my overall career goals and interests rather than specific experience and skills. I think it’s fairly normal, they seem to just like to do a final check to make sure you’re not bonkers.

    3. atexit8*

      I once interviewed at a family-owned company of about 100 employees,
      and I was told that the final step in the process was an interview with the owner.

      I did not make it to the final step. :-/

    4. periwinkle*

      Weird, perhaps, but if that’s the only red flag it’s probably just a quirk of the company. For a few years, the VP in charge of my division insisted on doing a 15-minute phone interview with every candidate for every position. During my interview she immediately launched into critiquing my background and questioning if I could manage working in HugeCorporation since my most recent jobs had been with very small companies. Luckily she mentioned a pet initiative which was one of my specializations so I grabbed onto that thread and we had a positive conversation about that. And that was the first and last time I ever spoke with her. I have no idea what impact she actually had in the hiring decisions, but I got the job!

      Thankfully for everyone involved, she eventually decided to stop doing those interviews.

  189. Jack the Accessibility Guy*

    I’ve been asked to temporarily manage a contractor who is 20 years older than me and making about five times my (already quite good) annual salary. He hasn’t really been doing much that warrants his fee and his project is going slow as molasses. I’ve only ever managed interns before and I need to get this guy back on track. Any advice?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Well I’d stop thinking about his salary, because being a contractor is different to being staff.

      Set SMART goals. And try not to get so personal…

      1. CAA*

        Ramona’s right. Take his fee out of the equation. As a contractor he has much higher tax rates than you do and he also has to pay for all his own benefits.

        Have a meeting with him. Talk about the project and get his plan for the next steps. Set some milestones and deadlines that you both agree to. Then hold him to them. If he misses the dates he agrees to without giving you a lot of warning and valid explanations, then start talking to your higher ups about replacing him.

  190. This is me*

    I had two phone interviews with a company last week. It began with the internal recruiter on Tuesday. Then I had a phone interview with the hiring manager last Friday a.m. The internal recruiter called me at 6 PM Friday ( I flipped! My boyfriend’s workplace was having an event including a group outing to watch the local MLB team play and I was already 2 beers in) Anyway, we set up for a face to face meeting with the hiring manager this past Tuesday. Turns out I also met with her boss, the COO. I felt good, but still tried to set it aside. It’s not mine till the offer it. Late last evening, I had an email from hiring manager requesting my references and a work sample.

    So now I am a wreck waiting for my references to let me know they got called.

    1. Emma*

      Hang in there! It’s not yours yet, but you’re for sure a finalist. We often do reference checks for 2ppl.

  191. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

    So I’m curious about this. I’m not new to the working world; I didn’t go to college, and I got my first full-time job at 19 (15 years ago! Didn’t even realize that till just now). But here’s something I’m still unsure of: how do you know when it’s better to use your own judgment and simply solve the issue at hand, versus when you need to ask your supervisor for guidance? For example, I’m currently a buyer; I write contracts, and I essentially commit my agency to spending money (sometimes lots of money). Because of that, I’ve been under the mind of asking versus just doing. I.e. For one contract, I wasn’t sure about a specific part of it that the end user wanted in there. So I told my supervisor the question, told her what I thought was the right answer, and asked if that was the right way to go.
    I realize this is going to be different for pretty much every single boss out there, but I guess I’m concerned about having a future boss be of the “figure everything out yourself” category, but not knowing it. And the only way to really find out is to ask, right? But then I’m asking Boss whether or not to ask about things, and it seems like a supervisor who doesn’t like questions, and wants employees to do things on their own, would get frustrated by an employee asking what they should ask about. Maybe I’m overthinking this? I’ve just read a lot of posts and comments on AAM, and it seems like there are a lot of crazy bosses, and having one be annoyed, that I have to ask what to ask about, seems possible. Any input welcome!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I mean, I think this is something we all struggle with. We use our best judgments and sometimes make mistakes. The problem only arises when your boss expects you to be independent but then penalizes you later for using your best judgment. The best thing a boss can do for you is say “I trust you to make good decisions” and then to later say “How you handled that was fine, and I understand why you did it. In the future, though, I probably would have done X.” That’s training and correcting, not scolding.

      1. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

        Thanks for the response! It makes me feel better that you say this is something everyone struggles with. I was legitimately thinking that I was in the minority of people who simply didn’t have a good enough “read” of the boss. Ultimately, I know that it’s going to come down to experience with the individual supervisor, just wondering if there were some tips or ideas on how to avoid being that annoying employee to a hands-off manager :)

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I’d look at the impact of getting it wrong. That can help you determine whether to loop your boss in.

      1. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

        I guess that’s kind of my thinking right now; I don’t mind making decisions on the spot that will cost a few thousand dollars, tops, especially since I generally have a good feel of what my supervisor would do anyway (now that I’ve worked with her for 3 yrs). But many thousands of dollars, I will wait and ask about it. Thanks for the reply and the advice, Ramona!

    3. NW Mossy*

      I manage a team of analysts, and independent judgment is a huge part of what they’re expected to do. That doesn’t mean that I don’t want them to ask questions, but I get concerned if I start seeing a pattern of “I’ve never seen this before – can you walk me through it step by step?” instead of the “here’s what I’m planning on – sound good?” approach you went with. If I can’t see your thinking, I can’t assess how you’re doing on it.

      You have to do at least some of your own thinking to develop judgment. As you’re learning or are dealing with novel situations, it’s totally reasonable to double-check your thinking with someone else before taking action (time permitting). But if you’re always looking to others to develop the plan and you just execute the orders, you put a hard ceiling on your ability to grow.

  192. K*

    I have been training a new employee at my work place this week. She is to shadow me for her first two weeks to get a feel for the job, as it is done independently in the field. She asked me today how vacation accrues, and I was surprised to discover that she was given 3 weeks vacation to start in her contract. I have been in the same role for 2 years and have 2 weeks vacation, and was told I am not eligible for 3 weeks until I have completed 5 years of service. This feels wrong to me but I am unsure how to approach this with managment. Do I have any right to complain? I would like equal treatment.

    1. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

      I would start by asking, either HR, or your boss, or checking your employee benefits info if you have that somewhere. I wouldn’t start with “New Employee has 3 weeks and I don’t”, but rather, I’d ask about the policy. Then, if appropriate, I’d also ask if the policy has any flexibility.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Bare in mind, that this maybe something she negotiated during her hiring process.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      Sounds as if she negotiated for that. She may have done so in lieu of a higher salary. Or she may have had something else going on. I wouldn’t presume that it’s not equal treatment, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t inquire. Just go in with more of a “Help me understand this” attitude than a “This is an injustice” attitude.

    4. fposte*

      I wouldn’t complain, but rather I would inquire about the possibility of parity here. “I was surprised to hear that a new employee is starting out at three weeks’ vacation; I’m still getting only two weeks. Is it possible to even that out?” If they say no, ask them if they can give you their thinking on that. Since you mention a contract it’s vaguely possible there’s some sort of exceptional arrangement that’s been hammered out. Then at least you have an idea if they’re prepared to regularize things or if this is something you have to choose whether or not to live with. Good luck!

  193. Witness Protection*

    I’ve been waffling on posting this for several weeks. Finally deciding to post, but with anonymity instead of my regular handle.

    I’m burning out. I don’t think I’m all the way “burnt out” but I’m close.

    There are some benefits to my current position that make it difficult-enough to leave right now that, while I am on the lookout, I’m also not actively looking. My husband suggested switching to actively looking but honestly, right now, I don’t even have the energy for that.

    Does anyone have any advice on:
    1) How to counteract Burnt Out while still staying in the same position (for whatever reason)?
    2) Deciding what positions to look for when the only career you can really think of you’d enjoy is “Lottery Winner”?

    1. JulieBulie*

      Can you try just sticking your toe in? Like peek on Craigslist or something like that. No commitment or anything, just look around on there for a couple of minutes till it gets boring. Maybe that will break the ice?

      I don’t have good advice for burnout. My “strategy” was to watch the clock every day and think about how great it would be to go home.

    2. CAA*

      This may not help, but I found the best thing for burn out was to start actively searching for a new job. Feeling like I was really doing something to end the current situation made me more able to cope with it.

      1. Anna Held*

        Can you take a couple random days off? The first one, do something that will relieve some stress and let you recharge — take a hike, clean the house, update your resume, go to the spa. Literally, whatever will make you more relaxed.

        Second day off, get up early and sit down to work on applications. Update your materials, research your field(s), send out apps. Putting a new job hunting system in place and getting a strong start will make you feel better. I agree with CAA, just the process can help you. Quit at your normal end of workday, and spend your commute time relaxing!

  194. Sam Vega*

    My current plan is to go back to school and finish my degree. If that turns out not to be possible for some reason, my backup plan is to work for the same university. I’d really like to leave my current job soon either way.

    There’s a position I’m interested in at the university (even though it would mean taking about a 30% pay cut; yes, I want out of my current job that much) that has a closing date for next Friday. I’m waiting from some additional information from admissions that probably won’t come back before then. If I can’t be readmitted at this time, I don’t want to miss the chance at this job.

    Questions for university staff:

    1) Is it at all likely that HR would know or care that I’m also in process for possibly being readmitted? Or that admissions would know or care that I’m submitting applications for employment?

    2) If so, does it matter? Should I pass on this job prospect for now and hope that I’m readmitted? I might not get final word on readmission until December and wouldn’t resume classes until January at the earliest.

    3) Since state universities are technically government employers, are they also typically overly rigid and weird in their hiring processes? Do they expect unreasonable things like references from your current supervisor? How do they handle official company policies that forbid anything other than confirming employment dates? My former supervisor (still with my current company) has offered a glowing reference for whatever I need it for, which should help. I hope.

    1. Paul*

      Hey, I reached out to a man I know from my failed attempt at undergrad; he’s a higher up muckety muck in a state school system here. We’re not super close but he’s one of the kindest and most honest persons I’ve been honored to meet so I trust him pretty well when he says this.

      1: Highly unlikely-certainly not at (system he’s with)

      2: how’s the scheduling look? Can you take night classes (if it’s a day job) or do p/t night classes and progress in your degree?

      3: They can be, particularly for external applicants, but if you’re not in our state, he’s not sure how much he can speak to that. From what he can remember they don’t require a reference from the current employer but they do require references. and they run background checks.

      1. Sam Vega*

        Thanks so much! It’s been over 15 years since my (first) failed attempt at undergrad and I’ve never stopped wanting to finish (and continue beyond).

        I’ve been lucky and successful enough even without it, but have never enjoyed any of the work I’ve done. It has taken a formerly tolerable workplace going quickly and irrevocably bad while living in a low-wage area to make me seriously consider taking a risk and giving it one more go.

        I didn’t think it was very likely these things would be an issue, but didn’t want to appear like I didn’t know what I wanted to do. I definitely do! I’m just not sure yet that everything will work out and wanted to keep my options open. Too early to say for sure about scheduling, but I don’t think night classes will work out. Thanks again!

        1. Paul*

          I hear you. tried going back a couple of years before we had kids and bombed out hard. I’m trying to make peace with being dumb after that. Thank god my wife’s the brains of the outfit :)

    2. Emma*

      Higher ed person here!

      1) HR will most likely not know you’re applying as a student. If you’re applying for a job in admissions or with a department that handles your admissions (for example, our school’s admissions for undergrads are centralized, but grad admissions are handled by the grad departments), then they may notice. But otherwise you’re probably fine.

      3) one thing to know is that state hiring can take a long time, especially at this time of the year, since various key players may be on vacation. For example, I’m on a search committee right now, and we reviewed apps individually and met last Friday to rank ppl for phone interviews. This Thursday we held phone interviews. And we’re planning to bring ppl in for on campus interviews in 2 weeks, due to vacation schedules. Then probably at least a week of reference checking/other stuff.

  195. Rincat*

    State university employee here!

    1. Probably not, in both departments. In my school those systems are kept pretty separate.

    2. Even if they know, go ahead and apply! There’s no telling if you’ll get the job or not. If you do, they often have tuition reimbursement as a benefit. And typically schools are happy to have their staff enroll as long as it doesn’t interfere with your work duties (though they can be pretty flexible with your schedule, and are more likely to grant that flexibility if you’re a student of that university instead of elsewhere).

    3. Yes but it depends on how weird they are. My university does not require a reference from your current employer – in fact you can tell them not to contact your boss. It varies wildly in methods, but the common thing amongst all higher ed hiring is that it’s SLOW. Slow as molasses.

    Apply now!! Good luck!!

      1. Sam Vega*

        Thanks so much! I’m fully expecting slowness and in this case, I think it might actually be beneficial to me. I’m aware of the tuition reimbursement on offer, but assumed based on the posted work hours that it wouldn’t be useful in my situation. I should be able to finish in another 2-3 semesters if the scheduling works out, so I think I’ll probably just work PT so that this doesn’t drag out another 15 years!

  196. Anonymous Prostate*

    I am 56 years old and have 30+ years experience at my (very large) company. I’ve been considered a very good employee for most of that time.

    This year has not been a good year:

    – I started a new job with a new boss and new co-workers. I get along well with all of them, but there has been a steep learning curve for the work.

    – I’ve been slammed by multiple medical issues. I’ve been feeling unusually fatigued since January, so I went to the doctor and discovered that I have serious sleep apnea, I’m diabetic, I have a vitamin D deficiency, and prostate cancer – this last being diagnosed around the end of May 2017. I’ve been healthy all my life – but suddenly all this stuff comes home to roost.

    – I dislike sharing these kinds of issues with my boss and co-workers, but I felt obligated to inform my boss about my health problems. Especially since it has gotten in the way of my work and productivity. I’ve got good insurance and a good sick leave policy, but I’ve had to take time off for various tests, not to mention that it is difficult to pay attention in a scrum meeting while awaiting word of whether or not my cancer has metastasized.

    – I’ve had a number of meetings with my boss about these issues. It’s been awkward. My boss is not an evil guy, but he doesn’t have great people skills, and he doesn’t want to deal with my health BS. I can’t blame him – I don’t want to deal with my health BS, either!

    – My boss has been great about any time off I need. But he seems to be struggling with my productivity issues. For instance, the last several times we’ve talked, he’s somewhat pointedly brought up how he really hopes to see me back soon as a high performer, and that he doesn’t want to put me on a Performance Plan, etc. I’m not overly certain how to take these kinds of statements. I’ve flat-out asked “are you going to put me on a plan?” And he says “no” – but then we have another meeting and he brings it up again.

    – These meetings invariably push me into a defensive attitude where I’m saying stuff like “yes, I missed that meeting because I had a biopsy”. I hate this more than I can express in mere words.

    – My gut feeling is that a) my boss has ‘typecast’ me as a poor performer and that his opinion won’t change, even if I do something amazing; and b) my boss thinks prostate cancer is like a bad cold: a few weeks and I’ll be back on the job and everything will be right as rain.

    – So far, my interactions with management have all been ‘informal’ and ‘friendly’: HR hasn’t been pulled in, no-one has mentioned the ADA, no lawyers or threats of lawsuits, no-one has been asked to sign any intimidating paperwork. But I have the sense that this will not last forever.

    – To further complicate matters: shortly before the prostate cancer diagnosis, my company extended a ‘retirement bridge’ offer to a number of employees around my age – essentially: work one last year (July 2017 to June 2018) at 60% time for 70% wages. I took the offer. In theory, the retirement bridge says I cannot be laid off during my last year. But there’s a loophole: I can still be fired.

    I tried to boil things down to the basics, but it’s still awful complicated. If you made it to here, I thank you.

    All that said: my goal is to try to get healthy and work my final 11+ months at my job and then retire. My question is: what should I be doing to help make this happen? Again: so far, everything has been “friendly”. But I’m not convinced that this will last, especially given how my boss keeps saying “now, I really don’t want to have to put you on a performance plan.”

    If it makes any difference, I live in Texas.

    —

    Oh – a few words about prostate cancer: prostate cancer has somehow developed a kind of reputation that it’s an “easy” cancer, and I guess it’s true that modern medicine has developed a number of fairly successful treatments for it. But it’s still freaking *cancer*. It’s the 3rd leading cause of cancer death in men in the USA. It’s not the equivalent of a bad cold, that will pass in 2 or 3 weeks. I try to be optimistic, but I still lose sleep over it. My doctor is fairly sure we caught it before it metastasized – but he cautions me that the technology used for scanning is surprisingly low-rez, so there’s a significant margin of error in all of this stuff. I’ve yet to undergo treatment – and current treatment options are all extremely unpleasant. This stuff is going to be an unpleasant reality for me for the rest of my life.

    I don’t want anyone’s pity. But I’ve been surprised at some of the reactions I’ve received from the limited number of people I’ve opened up to about my ‘condition’. Like: “oh, that sucks! But at least it’s just prostate cancer!”

    1. Paul*

      Yikes. Any chance at all of FMLA?

      I’ve not had prostate cancer, thank God, but I wound having a scare with it this year myself (just some gastro issues flaring up).

      You have a year left; if ADA/HR/FMLA get invoked, do you have enough credibilityy to drag out the process that far? I mean absolute worst case scenario?

      Ideally you’d be able to be “on” when you’re at work but I know how distracting health crap can be; my youngest son spent a wee bit in the hospital earlier this year and frankly I was a pseudo-zombie during that, even when at work.

    2. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

      People who say it’s “just” or “only” prostate cancer are morons. You have had a horrible start to the year. I would take the performance plan comments seriously, since he doesn’t sound like a good manager, and thus, the fact that he’s mentioning them to you at all leads me to believe that he has you associated with one.
      You’re in Texas: are you covered by the FMLA? It seems like you probably are, I just wanted to make sure. If so, have you and your doctor completed paperwork allowing you to take the family and medical leave the act allows for? Even if you haven’t yet, you can have it going forward, so that can cover at least 12 weeks of leave you have to take related to your health issues.
      Keep in mind that you have an end in sight. You are, in my opinion, a victim of health circumstances here. You are *not* a poor performer. You are *not* looking for a free ride or easy way out. You’re trying to deal with a shit hand of cards in the best way you can.

      1. Yzma, Put Your Hands In The Air!*

        If you feel like it, I’d also consider talking to HR about your health issues, and maybe even specifically mention how you hate how your current state of health has been preventing you from being the high performer you usually are, and even that you’ve been concerned about the potential of a performance plan because you’ve missed so much time for your health-related appointments.

    3. ThatGirl*

      My dad had prostate cancer. He ended up having surgery, was out of the hospital in ~24 hours and pretty fully recovered in 4-6 weeks. It’s still scary, I get it.

      But the honest truth is that more men die *with* prostate cancer than *of* it. There’s definitely this idea of a “hierarchy” of cancer, that some are “better” than others. Yes, aggressive or metastasized prostate cancer can be deadly. I don’t want to minimize that. And even with successful treatment there’s still recovery time and side effects. So people saying “just” prostate cancer are obnoxious. But it reflects more on them than you.

      I’m sorry you’re having a rough year. Can you take FMLA intermittently? I’m pretty sure this would qualify?

      1. TL -*

        Yes but without knowing his diagnosis and without the ability to see the future, it’s impossible to tell if his prostate cancer is the “wait and see” type or the “aggressive castration-resistant” type.
        Statistically, it’s much more likely to be easily treatable, sure, but you can’t know that and it’s okay to be terrified by the chance. People shouldn’t minimize that.

    4. OldMom*

      This might not help but you may need to keep your job or get another one to keep health insurance, depending on if our elected representatives screw the pooch. I am similarly aged and retired early with the assumption that I would be able to get insurance. If that changes or if you can’t get apreexisting condition covered, keeping a job might be your best option. Or maybe marry a Canadian?
      You might find a support group useful with people handling similar issues and I hope they have better ideas!
      Sympathies, and good luck!

    5. Sam Vega*

      Everything about this sucks. I’m sorry you’re having to deal with it.

      If your company is very large, then they’re covered by FMLA. If you work within 75 miles of an office with at least 50 employees, then you’re eligible to take protected leave. You’re almost certainly covered by ADA as well. These things are there for you, so please talk to someone in HR if you need to take leave related to your condition or need accommodations to do your job. Your supervisor probably has no idea the risk he’s putting the company at…’FMLA interference’ is a thing if everyone stops being ‘friendly’.

      You also shouldn’t have to share any details beyond the fact that you’re dealing with a medical issue. It’s no one’s business and something well-trained supervisors and HR staff know to steer clear of.

      Here’s hoping the best for you–please take care.

      1. Anonymous Prostate*

        Thanks Sam, and the others who commented. I believe I have the option of FMLA. Plus my company has some kind of Short Term Disability and Long Term Disability.

        I think my big concern is: do I really want to go to HR and get them involved? It’s a tough call So far, everything has been informal: I could be wrong, but I don’t think my boss has told anyone in HR that he’s got an employee with a problematic illness. And I’m not sure how HR is going to react to the situation. I’ve read many stories about how HR is working for the benefit of the company. They’re not necessarily going to be on my side.

        1. Mehkitty84*

          It is sad that HR has a negative outlook for some employees. They are legally required to provide FMLA paperwork if an employee requests it. You can also be under FMLA while taking a STD. Typically, you start with STD and then move in to LTD if your doctor identifies it to be needed. It is better to loop HR as they can assist you with these protected leaves and right now they only have your manager’s side. They are there for the benefit of the company, but they also try to do what is in the best interest of the employee as well. (At least I do as an HR Manager).

  197. Mehkitty84*

    I am so sorry that you’re dealing with this. My father became quite ill and was a high performer. He tried to ignore it, but it got worse and he went from Short term to long term disability. It sounds like you just started this job and if you haven’t been there a year yet FMLA wouldn’t be available to you. If you have been there a year you could inform HR that you need FMLA and you have an option to take FMLA days intermittently for management of your condition. Your doctor would just have to sign off. I would also recommend seeing if you company as an Employee Assistance Program. This would give you a third party to talk to such as counseling and it is completely free as well as anonymous. Look over your employee handbook as well. Sometimes you can take a personal leave, but it may be unpaid. I am not sure if it helps talking to your manager also about your concerns with your performance and whether he has the same concerns. Keep us updated on how this goes for sure and if you need any other advice!

  198. CmdrShepard4ever*

    Would it be okay to ask during job negotiation to push back start date due being in the middle of closing on a mortgage/home? Should it just be made as a request with out mentioning the specifics of why? Our banker told us if my partner changes jobs before the closing date it would push it back another 30 days until she can establish 30 days of work history. The bank will call to verify employment a few days before the closing.

    1. Natalie*

      Depends on how long you would need to wait, but if it’s less than a week or two I can’t imagine it being a big deal to ask. That’s not a guarantee that the company would agree, but if they act unreasonably put out by the request or something, that’s valuable information about who they are.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you can ask for a later start date, but you don’t need to volunteer why unless pressed. That said, there’s nothing to be ashamed of here—dealing with closing on a home is a big deal, and anyone (including your future boss) should recognize that.

  199. Golda*

    I was working in an extremely toxic environment the management was sexist and treated mt male co-worker and I differently giving him more opportunities, higher raises, and promotions. When we had new people come in, they started treated me differently as well making fun of me behind my back with #’s because management treated me as a second class they did as well. I brought the issue to management after multiple attempts to resolve it on my own and was told to get thicker skin. I was able to get a better job paying $15,000 more a year! When I gave my notice, I was asked to leave, and I was fine with that. I was more than prepared to learn from this experience and let it go; then I talked via text to an old co-worker an old friend of mine. It turns our I was turned down for the most recent promotion because one of my bullies complained about me on the anonymous survey, and based on the survey I didn’t deserve it. I’m struggling a bit with this information I saved the communication just in case I need it. How would any of you handle this situation?

    1. Snark*

      I think Plan A,”learn from this experience and let it go,” is still your best one. There’s nothing to handle. You’re not the first person whose crappy coworkers bullied them out of a job, you’re not going to be the last, and while it really sucks and is heinously unfair, you have basically no recourse. Count yourself lucky that you peaced out with a good raise and that you’re well rid of them.

      1. Chaordic One*

        If it were me I think I’d leave your former employer a lousy review on “Glassdoor”. Don’t exaggerate, but if you have to be a bit vague to make it look like the criticism is not coming from you, then be vague. Just the facts.

    2. Paul*

      A stiff drink and being glad I’m nto there anymore. I mean, I know alcohol isn’t a great coping strategy but if you want an honest answer there’s mine. You’re gone, you ain’t dealing that bullshit anymore. If anything view it as validation of your abilities since *someone* was recognizing what you were good at even if other peopel weren’t.

    3. Channel Z*

      Light it on fire and do a happy dance around it, chanting a la the song Milkshake “My new job is much better than yours, damn right, it’s betta than yours.” Though if you didn’t print it, lighting a text message on fire isn’t a good idea.

    4. Natalie*

      Maybe don’t talk to your ex-coworkers for a while? Or at least don’t talk to them about the workplace you shared. They’re keeping you sucked into some nonsense for absolutely no benefit to you.

    5. The Other Dawn*

      What would you want the outcome to be? (I’m asking that as a serious question, no sarcasm.)

      I agree with everyone else. Just let it go and be happy you’re no longer there.

  200. Laura*

    Are there any sites that have advice for the long-term unemployed? This blog only seems to only help people who already have a job and nothing for those us struggling to find work.

    2. Paul*

      Temp agencies: it can be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff ther ethough (see my earlier post!). But they can be helpful.

  201. Bored and Confused*

    I’m having a bit of a problem with interviewers asking me about job hopping. I’m only a year out of university and because of the job market in my field (mainly because you need at least a masters degree to get hired) I have been working in retail. During university I worked a lot of temporary seasonal positions in retail stores. On my resume I have those jobs clearly marked as seasonal right next to my dates of employment. Yet I still get interviewers asking me why I’ve had so many jobs and asking me why I didn’t stay at jobs for very long. I try to explain that I had a very hectic class schedule, as in lots of three or four hour lectures and labs that started anywhere between 9am and 3pm, so I was not able to work during school. I even worked for nearly a year and a half at a major retail chain because of one year my classes were all miraculously in the mornings. However I’m still being treated like a job hopper. Any advise on how to handle this?

    1. Simone R*

      Could you just leave those jobs off? Especially if they are not in your field and you were in school at the time it seems like it wouldn’t look too odd.

      1. Kimberlee, Esq.*

        Yeah, I kinda agree with this. I think that you can communicate that you were working in retail while going to school in a way that doesn’t list out all those individual places and dates. Especially if the retail work is unrelated to what you’re applying to, it’s not really useful for your employer to know every single store you worked at and for how long. You can probably use that resume space much better, and lose all the job-hopping questions to boot.

    2. CAA*

      It’s probably just that the interviewer hasn’t read every word on your resume, or else the temporary nature of the jobs isn’t highlighted as clearly as you think it is on your resume. If you’re asked why you didn’t stay at these jobs very long, just say something like “These were part-time, summer, and holiday jobs that I worked while I was a full-time student. They were all temporary jobs that were designed to end after the employer’s busy season when I went back to school.”

      Don’t explain about hectic class schedules and long lectures. Just say the jobs ended because they were supposed to end.

    3. Reba*

      If you are looking for work in your field, i.e. not in retail, leave the jobs off and only include the current one, if that. If there are reasons you want more of them on there, lump them together. So you would have:

      Current Job (reasonable length of time)

      [optional] The year-and-a-half job (dates)

      Seasonal retail associate during school breaks
      -Company (dates)
      -Company (dates)
      etc. etc.

    4. Bored and Confused (and hopeless)*

      Ya…. I haven’t been able to find a job in the last year that wasn’t a seasonal position. It’s a vicious job market right now. I get turned away for being over qualified or for not having enough experience. What used to be entry level office jobs now require an office administration certificate (that costs around $7000 between tuition and books) and five or more years experience. I’m kind of beaten down because as much as I don’t want to be stuck in retail it feels like there’s no way for me to break free. I can’t afford to go back to school. Even if I could find a full time job, I would barely be able to cover rent for a room and food. At this point I’m regretting every bothering to get a bachelor’s degree as it means nothing and my depression is becoming crippling. I just have no options and don’t know what to do.
      I guess for the meantime I’ll have to try and get hired at a few part time jobs and get those schedules to work. I just want to give up.

  202. AnonAndOn*

    Going anonymous here. Yesterday I applied for a county government position. When I’ve applied for positions for this county government in the past all I had to do was submit a resume, fill out contact information, and fill out the optional demographics. Yesterday I had to fill out ranking factors before the typical part of the resume. Those are where it asks about a certain skill, gives options that fit one’s level in that skill and one has to be selected, and then specify how one’s used that skill at their past job. I’ve done those before for other government jobs, but this one did that had no progress bar and no way of saving what I’ve done to continue on another day.

    After an hour of filling out these ranking factors I push submit and it booted me out of the system. I tried to log back in but it kept giving me error messages. I then logged into Chrome’s incognito mode and had no problems finishing the application. The ranking factors had been finished which was a sigh of relief. All I had to do was confirm the pre-filled out contact and demographic information and submit the resume.

    It was so irritating though. Had those answers not been saved there was no way I was going to spend another hour filling it out over again. What makes things easier for employers makes it harder for us applicants.

    1. Paul*

      I have applied to a couple of local county jobs over the years; my experience echoes yours. It gets worse with the more rural counties too; holy hell. I know counties here that don’t really list employment options online despite the state giving them easy ways to do so. Ugh.

      Good luck.

      1. AnonAndOn*

        Thanks! This specific county government is slow in their hiring process as well. It takes on average three months to find out if I’m qualified after their application rating process, and being considered qualified doesn’t mean I’ll be contacted for an interview. It’ll be another three months after the application’s been reviewed and rated to find out if I’ve been rejected.

        At least it’s not like the post office. I applied to a job with USPS in November 2016, took a clerical test and a typing test and passed both, and just found out a few days ago that I was rejected. Someone could’ve had a baby in the amount of time USPS’s hiring process takes.

  203. DietCokeHead*

    I posted last week about my frustration with having to provide regular front desk coverage when it was not listed as part of my job duties. There are three of us in the office who provide coverage during breaks when the regular receptionist is out. Myself and a rotating cast of two other ladies (always ladies in the 2.5 years I’ve been here). I requested off for August 11th and my manager emailed me asking if I could reschedule my day off because I am covering the front desk for 15 minutes in the morning. Not please find someone else to cover that shift, which I had been planning to do if my request was approved. It took all I had to politely email back asking if it would be possible for me to ask one of the other ladies to cover that time and not add this at the end. “If not, I will edit my request to be for 7 hours and 45 minutes and I will come in that day only to work those 15 minutes.”

  204. Sparkly Librarian*

    On the topic of gendered bathrooms at work… I accidentally used the “wrong” one last week. I was at an office I don’t frequently visit, and I borrowed someone’s bathroom key (another woman) and went off down the hall to the staff bathroom. Well, I came down the opposite direction that I normally would (when I’ve been in the building before, and have used the staff bathroom maybe twice), and it turns out that the men’s toilets are on the opposite side of the hall from the women’s. I turned the wrong way, there wasn’t any distinctive signage, and the key apparently works in both doors! I had an odd moment of “Wait, aren’t the mirrors on the OTHER side of the room?” until I caught sight of the urinals and realized what must have happened. But there wasn’t anyone in there (so no one to discomfit), and I didn’t think it was really so embarrassing as to go out and across the hall… so I just used the bathroom. Nothing blew up. The world did not end. Although I may have confused a coworker who met me in the hall just before I went in the wrong door!

    1. Anonymous Prostate*

      I once had this happen to me at a truck stop, after I’d been driving for hours. I’ll leave out the boring details, but the room was deserted and it felt ‘odd’. As I was leaving, it hit me: no urinals! Ack! I made haste to depart. It was an innocent mistake – but I’m glad I didn’t have to try to explain it to a cop!

  205. Mimmy*

    On a more concrete note: What’s the best way to track hours when you have to stay below a certain number of hours in a given period?

    As I mentioned in my post above (I think I describe in my response to fposte’s reply), I am allotted a certain number of hours per fiscal year, which in my state, runs July 1 to June 30. My supervisor knows I have to be careful (I am paid directly by the state, not a temp agency) and I would hope they will be mindful of that. However, I’d like to be proactive too.

    I’m thinking of creating a spreadsheet with a running tab of weekly hours (the timesheet program also shows the cumulative number of hours), but I’m wondering if there’s a way to calculate everything in such a way that I can ensure that I don’t use up my hours too quickly.

    Please tell me I’m overthinking this and that I should leave it up to my supervisor and HR, lol.

    1. Emma*

      I would calculate how many hours you should work per week (taking into account any weeks that you’d have vacation or holidays), and then set a schedule where you stay below your max weekly amount. Like if I plan to work 50 weeks, and am limited to 1000 hours, I should aim for 20 hours per week. Tracking in an excel also sounds like a great idea.

  206. New Seeker*

    I have been with my current company for many years. Due to various reasons, I feel I should at least start looking to see whatever jobs are out there. I’ve looked at so many applicant resumes over the years, but now that I have to update my own, I’m taking a long time to figure what to write.

    I haven’t updated the resume in about 8 years. What I have barely scratches the surface of what I do.

    Anyone have any suggestions on where to start?

  207. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

    So in a post earlier, there was a rather lively discussion of differences between the Great Recession and the current (arguably) post-Recession.

    I get the heebie jeebies when I apply for stuff, because I’m new to this game and I still remember the bad days of “needs 5 yrs experience for entry level position,” or employers who abuse automated resume screening systems, or every other job-hunting horror story ever told from that era.

    In fact, until reading this week’s post, I honestly thought things were still really bad for applicants.

    In what ways have things improved for job seekers since 2008? Stayed the same? Gotten worse?

    1. overeducated*

      I’m curious, what post was that? I missed the discussion and would like to read.

      I feel like it’s just as hard to job search now, but a) my field never truly recovered in some ways, like funding for positions and b) I’m looking for far more specialized roles now.

      1. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

        It was a question (don’t remember the date :( ) about how to get nosy relatives to butt out of a young daughter’s job search.

    2. CityMouse*

      I think it depends on the field. While certain industries have improved for sure, a lot of cuts instituted after the recession caused some pretty long lasting damage to arts and research programs, for instance. In the legal field, it’s widely viewed that the old firm culture that existed before the crash is probably permanently dead (which is probably a good thing, there was a lot of waste).

      Right now I have a friend who is an attorney at EPA and things are bad there, while other friends who are agency attorneys have had different experiences but are less worried about their jobs.

      1. Don't turn this name into a hyperlink*

        As someone who isn’t trained in law, I’m just curious, what did the “old firm culture” entail, and what made it undesirable?

  208. Michael C.*

    I was recently promoted to a newly created position in a department that works closely with the department where I used to work. I was kind of glad because my old boss was very good at a particular aspect of teapot production, but she is frequently overwhelmed by her job. She is disorganized, doesn’t delegate well, doesn’t have very good communication skills and isn’t very interested in certain parts of teapot production. She was (and is) a PITA. I am thrilled to have been promoted and excited about my new job (which builds on skills I learned in my old job). I was planning to leave the company if I had to continue to work with ex-boss.

    Anyway, in addition to starting my new job, I have to train my replacement in my old position. The first applicant quit before ever starting and so they defaulted to applicant number two, who seemed O.K. to me. He may have exaggerated some of his qualifications, but what he didn’t know he seemed to pick up quickly and I think he would have had everything down in another couple of weeks or so. I thought everything was fine, but on Friday of last week he came to me on Friday afternoon to say that he’d been let go and that his boss (my ex-boss) didn’t think he had the necessary skills to do the job. He thanked me for my help with training and then he left.

    Now I’m stuck doing my old job again, as well as my new one. I accessed the files that my replacement was working on before he was let go, and they seemed fine to me. I’m going to turn them in without making any changes to them, but I do have to create some new files because he didn’t have time to get to all of the work and create new files himself.

    I feel bad because I sort of wonder if I could have done a better job of training him. But I’m also a bit annoyed that they let him go after not really giving him much of a chance and because I have to come back and resume my old job. I’m also annoyed because no one has said anything about this to me, other than asking me to come in and do his work.

    My department is now advertising for someone who has even higher level skills and management experience. The new job being advertised offers significantly more pay, although it seems like this is to replace the guy who was just let go. It’s a weird situation.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      First off, congratulations on the new position. It means there is hope on the horizon and you shouldn’t be stuck with the old stuff forever.

      Who asked you to do his work and to take these responsibilities back? I would start by talking to your new boss about priorities and about which parts of your old job you think someone else could do. I don’t think you should have to cover both. You are one person! And if you’d given two weeks notice and left, they couldn’t get you to do any of it now.

      It sounds like the problem is your old boss and nothing to do with how you trained him. If your new boss is decent and approachable, talk to them.

      1. Michael C.*

        It is my new boss who has told me that I’ll have to be doing some (not all) of my old job duties again. I don’t think my new boss is exactly happy about the situation either, but new boss doesn’t have as much seniority or influence as old boss.

        Old boss has taken over some of my old tasks, although they’re not done as well as if I still did them. I just won’t be able to do everything that I should be doing in my new job for a while. My new boss understands the situation and has done a good job of establishing priorities until we get a new person in my old job, though that looks like it won’t be happening for a while yet.

    2. Anonymous Prostate*

      It is bogus that no-one even told you they weren’t happy with the person you were training.

      If it were me, I would try to get people to give me some actual dates and durations regarding finding a new person and what they expect from you in the meantime. And keep pushing. The nightmare scenario here is that you do the work of two people so well that mgmt forgets that they need to hire a replacement.

      It might be more than you want to offer, but it wouldn’t hurt if you could get involved in the hiring process. I suspect that a good case could be made for you to interview candidates.

  209. Regularly Distracted*

    So my PIP that (according to my signed paperwork) officially ended on Monday has not been reviewed yet by my boss and her boss because they were “to busy” to get to it this week. I thought I was going to be able to know this week how I had done, but now it’s been pushed back until Monday at least, but even then, I doubt they will meet about it before Tuesday. This is really not helping my stress levels.

    On a related note, I am hourly and my boss required that I take some classes through our companies web portal as part of my PIP. I was told not to list time spent on those classes on my time sheet. I’m employed in florida so does anyone know if this was legal or what?

    1. Rebecca*

      I don’t think so. I found this by searching “Florida Labor Law”.

      Meeting, lecture, and training time

      Florida has adopted the regulations set forth pursuant to the federal Fair Labor Standards Act regarding when employers must count employee time spent at meetings, lectures, and training as hours worked for purposes of minimum wage and overtime requirements. FL Constitution, Art. X, Sec. 24(b); FL Stat. 448.110(3).

      1. Anna Held*

        You can’t be doing too badly if they delayed the meeting a week. If they wanted to fire you, they would have done it.

        Even if it does go badly, that sort of thing shows you that whatever your faults, it’s not just you. That’s a long time to delay something so important! There could be a dysfunction feedback loop.

  210. Laura*

    I work as a Sales associate at a store for a regional Teapot company. They’re opening a store in my town. I had a friend already ask me when they’ll be hiring for the new location. I don’t know the answer. And I told them as much and not only did they keep asking but… they asked me to let them know even after I gave them instructions on how to get to the openings page and to look there periodically. I also gave them the general timeframe when seasonal positions open up retail wide.

    I know I shouldn’t let the request to keep an eye out bother me, but it really does- prolly cause I might be incorrectly assuming that they’re relying on me as a sole source of that info.

    (I’m planning on attempting a transfer myself so I’m eager for the info too.)

  211. Emma*

    I’ve been reading through the pdf and video on preparing for a job interview that came along with registering for the mailing list here at ask a manager. My question is – does any of the advice in that document change depending on whether a person is applying for a job internally versus a job at a different company?

  212. Ex-Academic, Future Accountant*

    I’m going to be starting in a Masters program in accounting this fall. Having been a grad student in the social sciences for the past several years, I don’t have a good sense of what’s acceptable as “business casual” wear. But it’s fancier than anything I’ve ever been in the habit of wearing before — all my non-jeans pants are American Eagle khakis. (I’ve never enjoyed getting dressed up, honestly, so the whole thing is a bit intimidating.) So far, I only need to dress up for business school-specific events, like orientation — as long as I’m still taking classes, this isn’t an everyday thing yet.

    I’ve looked at a few websites giving examples (though I get the sense that different people have different definitions). Also, reading AAM for the past few months has been helpful — I recently ordered some things from ThredUp, and I’m going to my local dance supply store to shop for character shoes tomorrow (thanks to something I recently read here).

    I can’t wear button-down shirts, because of gapping. I wear a lot of polo shirts in everyday life, but dress shirts unfortunately tend to button all the way down. So that limits my options somewhat. Also, I really dislike pencil skirts — they too are not right for my body shape, and I find them uncomfortable to walk in.

    My specific questions right now are these:

    •Colors. I have some plain, solid-colored shirts from Ann Taylor Loft. (For a sense of their level of formality or at least dressupability: I recently wore one to the opera under a cardigan with a skirt.) One of them is a kind of reddish-pink color. Is there such a thing as “too bright” for a shirt, if it’s worn under a black blazer/as part of an outfit that’s otherwise all black? It’s not hot pink; I believe it qualifies as a “jewel tone”, but I don’t speak Fashion. (I have a pair of tights of the same color — am I right that non-neutral colors aren’t appropriate for tights?)

    •Alice bands. I got into the habit of wearing these at some point in grad school, to keep my unruly curls out of my face. By this point, I have a whole bunch of them in various colors. I’m guessing one with a bright color or pattern wouldn’t be appropriate, but a plain black one would blend into my hair. Or is that no good?

    •Warmer-weather options. My orientation is at the end of August, so the weather might be kind of hot. I have this black knee-length A-line skirt, also from Loft, and a plain black short-sleeved (not button-down) blouse. If I were to wear those, along with a short-sleeved cardigan of a lighter-weight material (which is, you guessed it, from Loft) and black tights, would I be underdressed for a business casual event? (Also, I wonder about the knee-length skirt. As a classical musician, I wouldn’t wear a skirt that short onstage, but the longer skirts I’m used to wearing are very…”drapey”, in a way that business wear is generally not. Augh, my instincts. It’s like that XKCD: “My normal approach is useless here.”)

  213. My Sharona*

    I just read the cupcake article posted a few days ago and now I’m worried that I committed a first week faux pas! I am in my first week as being a new manager of a department I used to be a part of. There are some new people and some familiar people, and I have actually been out of the area for the past few years so it’s sort of a really happy homecoming.

    Anyway, I usually avoid being the “office mom” cause it’s not really my style (I participate in work parties and stuff but don’t really bake or anything) but on my first day they surprised me with a whole spread of delicious treats! I thought about it all week and on Friday decided to bring in something to share with the team. I sent out a “thanks for letting me shadow all of you all week and also there are some things in the break room, feel free to have some”. Was this out of line for week 1? It wasn’t at all a gesture to get people to like me, more of a “I really appreciate the welcome back”. Anyone have an opinion?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I think it’s different because they gave you treats first and because you did it at the end of the week rather than turning up with cupcakes before you got to know any of them. It sounds totally fine!

      Plus all of this is ‘know your office’ stuff, really.

    2. Foreign Octopus*

      I agree with Ramona. They surprised you first and you waited until the end of the week.

      It’s different if you go in on your first morning, not having met the team, bearing a tray of treats.

    3. Paul*

      IDK< I think in your case it is a bit different because A: they initiated and did it first and B: you have a prior relationship. and C: it wasn't the first day.

      This is why relational advice is hard, so many variables

  214. Cascading carrots*

    I might get offered 1-2 jobs next week. If I get offered both, I’m not sure which one to take.
    Job A seems very interesting, and in a great team in an otherwise poor-average culture.
    Job B seems a bit less interesting but still ok, and in a pretty good team in an organisation with generally pretty good culture.

    Same commute. One has better pay, but they’re both decent so I don’t want that to be the deciding factor.

    Any advice?

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      When I was deciding between two jobs, I saw a comment on another blog which said: “I made a list of pros and cons, then threw it away and went with my heart.”

      What matters to you? On the face of it, I’d take A, because for me a generally good culture is just not going to compensate for a less interesting job and a less great team. I am one of those people who need to really love their job and I care more about my immediate everyday experience (what I do, who I do it for and with) than the wider culture so long as that doesn’t completely suck.

      But that’s me. What matters to you? What do these concepts mean to you? For example:
      – What’s more interesting about job A? Would it sustain your interest over time? Could job B become more interesting?
      – What makes the team better in job A? How might having a great team affect your experience of the culture?
      – What makes the culture better in job B? What do you mean by culture – what’s your focus there? Is it stuff you can improve on in job A?
      – Which job will you wonder about more if you don’t take it?

      Or just toss a coin and see how you react to the answer.

      1. Emma*

        It probably also depends on how long you plan to stay, and what turnover’s like. A danger with place A is that if people leave or you try to advance, your good team won’t be a factor anymore. But with place b, if people stay forever cuz it’s a good place, you could be stuck with a mediocre team but maybe eventually able to transfer to a better part of the company. But if you’re not planning on staying there long, that would make less sense.

        1. Cascading carrots*

          Job A would be a one year contract (which is all I’d be comfortable with because I left my last job because of culture and I’m not sure how much I’ll feel the poir culture in a great team) and Job B is permanent.

          Both are essentially new teams so I think it’d be the same people around for at least a couple of years…

      2. Cascading carrots*

        Good questions!!
        They’re similar roles/responsibilities, but job A just seems like a more interesting topic in general but maybe it wouldn’t be in practice. And it sounds a bit more problem-solving (which I love) than the other

        With the job A culture, I’m just not sure how much it would affect the day to day. It seems to be focused around poor communication, silos and people “doing what they’ve always done” as opposed to actual lack of respect/kindness. But I think it’s too broad to be able to affect it.
        I’ve just left somewhere which started as a great team in a very bad culture and as good people/protectors left, the daily feel got worse and worse

        The team in job B could be just as good but I don’t know as much about it

    2. Mephyle*

      Everyone else has mentioned A, so I’ll chime in that on the basis of the information you gave us, I’d take B. Because I’m cautious, and I’d rather have a slightly less interesting (and permanent) job in a good environment. Perhaps that’s a factor of age (mine is advanced).
      What this says is not that you should consider B, but that it’s very subjective, and we’re each judging on what matters most to us individually. So you need to think about what matters most to you.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Exactly. I’d probably take A because having an interesting job really matters to me.

        I originally missed that you’re still waiting on the offers. I’d see how you feel when you get them. I chose a job that paid less, with a longer commute. On paper it was because I’d wanted to work there for ages, the job is a great fit, vacancies in this area don’t come up very often – as my husband pointed out I would always wonder what if.

        But really it was because I couldn’t bear to let this job go to someone else. It wasn’t logical. It was the one that made my heart leap. Now maybe that’s no reason to accept a job but you know what? I’ve never regretted it.

        1. Cascading carrots*

          Neither of them are that for me. They’re both just reasonable opportunities with some downsides but all jobs have downsides.

  215. ReadItWithSpanishAccent*

    I have some questions for you who are living in USA or know USA’s working environment. How good is 25 days (5 weeks) paid holidays? Also, what constitutes a “good benefit package”? In Europe pensions and healthcare are free, so I really don’t know how good is “good”.
    If you were to apply, what would matter most for you? Salary, benefits or holidays?

    1. Emma*

      5 weeks in the US is a lot! It’s more common in academic settings. For corporate jobs, it’s much less, maybe 3 weeks max (sometimes including sick time.) I come from an academic setting, but my husband is more corporate, so that’s just what I’ve observed from him. Other perspectives will be interesting!

      Typically the balance I’ve seen is that public sector & higher education jobs have better benefits (including time off) with lower pay, where private sector has worse health benefits & less time off but substantially higher pay. My husband’s job has really good retirement matching.

      Since you’re used to a pension system, that’s very rare here. Some state jobs have something akin to that , but it also depends on the state’s future financial health, as sometimes there are cut. A good benefit is retirement matching. You put x dollars into a retirement fund, and your company matches part or all of that. Or sometimes it means that they’ll automatically contribute a percentage of your salary to a retirement fund. For example, my state higher education job has a super high contribution rate of 10%. My husband has a more normal rate of 6%, which is actually really good. When they contribute to your retirement account, it’s unlike a pension in that often that $$ is just yours in the future, once you reach a certain age. But pay close attention to vesting- that’s where a company or organization may wait X years before their contributions are permanent. So if you leave before you’re fully vested, you lose some or all of those retirement contributions. Often you’ll become vested on a schedule (for my husband it’s 20% a year), or sometimes all at once (like after 5 years).

      1. ReadItWithSpanishAccent*

        Thanks! We are a privately-held business (I guessed academia was quite different, too). I knew – thanks to AAM- that USA did not have a federal law for holidays, but my bosses didn’t and were quite surprised.
        This is just for holidays, sick days won’t be deducted from it. I had the feeling it was very good, for what I read here, but I wanted to be sure :)

    2. Toph*

      Where I work the phrase “benefits” includes paid holidays/vacation time/PTO in general as well as health/dental/vision insurance, as well as retirement plan, and certain other perks like transportation reimbursement, medical flexible spending account, tuition reimbursement, all of that stuff. So to me it’s not a matter of salary vs benefits. What matters is them in combination. That said, if you had a spouse with great insurance that you could be on, then a job offering tons of PTO and high salary, but not-great-insurance or good-but-super-expensive insurance wouldn’t necessarily be bad. Whereas if you have medical conditions and cannot be on a spouse’s plan, then the insurance might be a dealbreaker unless the salary were so high that it’d offset.
      But yeah fives weeks in the US is a ton. I’d have to be at my company 10 years to get to that much.

  216. Chocolate Teapot*

    I am back at work on Monday after a fortnight’s holiday, so dreading all the emails which will have built up in my absence. Anyone else feel the same?

    1. Rebecca*

      First, 2 whole weeks off at a time? That’s wonderful. I could only dream of that, and it would only happen if I was really sick or injured…and it wouldn’t be fun then.

      Did any of your coworkers help to monitor your email when you were gone? We do that where I work, so when people come back to the office, they don’t have to spend the better part of a day trying to sort things out.

  217. Turtledove*

    My sister and I chatted about a job offer she got, yesterday. The offer looks really good – benefits, pension, salaried with reasonable hours, and she’d be making a bit more than she does now (for the same amount of work, too!), but it would require a massive move and she wouldn’t be near any of her support network afterwards. We talked about what the pros and cons of accepting the offer and moving would be, and I think I gave her some pretty good advice that I learned from reading AAM! (She hadn’t asked about what the employer would be able to offer in terms of relocation assistance, for example.)

    She decided to accept the offer, and she’s going to be taking a look at the area soon to figure out the logistics of moving there. (She’s also going “well, if I decide that moving there wouldn’t be a good idea for me, as long as I withdraw my acceptance before the start date, it’s fine”, which I’m a little more ‘eh’ on but I’m not gonna say anything about it to her; I don’t want to pressure her into sticking with a decision that’d make her miserable, on top of being very costly in a number of ways.)

  218. WittyOne*

    I missed posting yesterday, ugh…

    My whole department is stressed and overworked. People on all levels are unhappy but don’t leave due to having great benefits. A few have tried speaking up to our manager but she basically tells people they need to delegate more and that no one else is telling her they are overwhelmed. She wants people to do more with less, instead of hiring she wants to take people from one department and give them to another and when she’s told that people will then not be able to meet the turn around times she keeps decreasing she feels they just need to work harder. No one is driving her to be so metric focused, she does this on her own and never let’s up. People are generally having a hard time coming in to work.

    Now there is talk of a new strategic plan for us that’s coming from our Board to “really WORK the next two years”. Our department has BEEN working full steam for 3 years, since this new manager arrived. I don’t know how much more people can take.

    I’ve been considering sending an anonymous email to the CEO or HR. Is that ever effective? I’m not sure what else we can do, our manager only has two people above her, the CAO and CEO and approaching them directly doesn’t feel like the smart move. Our CEO travels more than he’s in the office so he’s externally focused and no one has a relationship with him really.

    Appreciate any thoughts.
    Thanks in advance.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m sorry, that sounds dreadful. I don’t see what an anonymous email would achieve though.

      1. WittyOne*

        Thanks, people seem afraid to speak up. We had a new manager say something in a meeting about being speak too thin but my manager just confronted him ‘well what are you working on?’ and it didn’t change a thing.

        1. WittyOne*

          *spread too thin

          I guess I feel (hope?), since the whole company isn’t like this, that if we made others aware they could do something. Perhaps it’s wishful thinking…

    3. Saturday*

      I’ll let you know how it goes, because I just did something similar. After a lengthy talk between the CEO, an upper level manager, and myself, it was determined that 1) women should not be forced to be alone with male clients (as in situations where only the 2 people were in the building) and 2) one particular woman in the office would not have to be left to deal with a particular male client who has made her uneasy, for several reasons, from the get-go. The woman had been honestly vocal with me, in front of the upper level manager, that she did not feel comfortable around this particular man and would prefer not to have to deal with him alone. She also made it clear that it was not all men who made her feel uneasy, just this particular one.

      The very next day, the client called to request an appointment and the upper level manager went straight to the woman and asked her to meet him in the office on a day when no one else would be there.

      This is after the woman had re-expressed her concern to me and I told her that it was decided she would not have to deal with him.

      I went straight to the CEO to complain that what was done was wrong. How can I give my staff certain assurances if upper management is only giving us lip service? Why make rules meant to guarantee personal safety and then break them the day after?

      1. WittyOne*

        That sounds like a very serious situation. I can’t believe they aren’t taking an employee’s personal safety seriously. I hope it all works out for the best.

        1. ReadItWithSpanishAccent*

          This cannot even be legal. This is not “Fergus said I won’t be managing the inventory and requesting the office supplies anymore”, this is “I fear for my safety if I am alone with Ramsay”

          At least in my country, companies are responsible of protecting their employees from sexual harassment, BOTH by co-workers and/or clients. Talk to HR or check the legislation, because you really need to push on that. This is serious stuff.

      2. Saturday*

        1st just want to say that all went well with the client meeting, which was a great relief to me.

        There were 2 parts to the lady’s argument as to why she didn’t want to be alone with the guy. Apparently the upper manager only paid attention to the 2nd, less serious part, which is why she was requested to attend the meeting after all.

        My request for more detail to be paid attention to personal safety, is being listened to. This is good. Will have to see how long it goes on. I’m used to being temporarily placated only to have things change later.

        Witty One, I wish you luck in whatever you decide. Based on my results, I can’t make a recommendation.

  219. Audiophile*

    A more important question popped into my head just now, as I’m waking up. Since it’s late, I’ll probably post again next week.

    I work for an org that is getting more political. A number of staff have been arrested for peacefully protesting recently.

    While no one has asked me yet to join them, one of the things that makes me pause, besides the unwanted publicity, is having an arrest on my record and how it might affect my job prospects going forward.

    1. Paul*

      I’d have to have extreme buy in to risk getting arrested for a job, and I’d have to trust the organization to really have my back if I got busted on the clock. Like, I’d have to think they’d do things like let time in jail be “on the clock” and that they’d throw my bail.

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I worked for an advocacy organization where civil disobedience was part of the job, and was arrested several times as part of various protests. No decent organization will pressure you to do that unless you genuinely want to. If you don’t want to, it’s fine to say no. Lots of people will say no. It shouldn’t be a problem.

      That said, if you believe strongly in their cause and you want to commit civil disobedience, doing it as part of your job is a great way to do it. My employer trained me in handling arrests and police, made sure my cat was taken care of, bailed me out, provided a lawyer, and considered all time spent while detained and in subsequent legal proceedings to be work time. It’s a pretty easy way to do it if it’s something you’re interested in doing.

      But again, only do it if you want to, not because you feel any pressure. I worked for an organization where civil disobedience arrests were routine, and there were still loads of people who didn’t do it.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        This sounds fascinating!

        Have you spoken about this before on this site? If not, I’d love to hear more about the type of work you were doing and how you got into it.

      2. Audiophile*

        I’m glad you saw this.

        While there’s a history of civil disobedience in the organization, it’s been a long time since they did this. They’ve been taking a position on the ongoing health care debate and a number of staff have gone to DC and been arrested. I’m pretty sure the organization has bailed them out, it’s been discussed at length and a lot of thought and care has been put into it.

        While I have no pets, I’m worried about the more trivial things – like having my car get towed, if I wind up there for a few days. I also don’t know if they’re staff on how to deal with police, although so far there haven’t been any issues.

        I absolutely believe in their cause, they’re a community based services organization that’s been around for 35 years. What we’re fighting for is really important and I’m becoming more and more proud to be working for them.

        That said, having been through long stretches of job searching and less than stellar employers, I’m concerned that it might make the next job search difficult.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Those are all things you should be able to talk about with whoever there is coordinating this stuff. If they don’t have answers that make you feel reassured, you should feel perfectly fine about not volunteering for it.

          As for job searches, it depends on what kind of work you do, but it’s never been an issue for me. Explaining that you have an arrest for political protest is very different than explaining you were arrested for a crime against a person or property. But again, it will depend on what kinds of jobs you want. (But I’ll add that I have a friend with a longer arrest history than mine — same cause — who now works as a teacher.)

  220. Kali*

    In a past job – call centre work – a group of us were pulled into a large meeting where we were encouraged to ask questions. As we’d just had a few new managers start, I asked if managers also had a probation period like we did and the room gasped. I still can’t fully articulate to myself why that question wasn’t appropriate – can anyone have a go at explaining to me?

    A lot of the time in that role I got a vibe that the call centre was seen as beneath other departments, and that this was accepted and normal. I thought I was probably imagining that, because reasonable adults don’t think that way, do they? Is it possible that they do?

    It takes me a while to pick-up on social norms, so I’ll probably have a few questions about weird little things from past jobs that I didn’t quite get or that I could have handled better. Luckily, I’m now a full-time student, so even though I’m older than most, I’m more relaxed knowing that I’m supposed to be learning this stuff now!

    1. Queen of Cans & Jars*

      I’m currently in a workplace where certain departments are considered “above” others. Kind of ridiculous because if any one department left, we’d be up s*** creek. Everybody’s got a vital role in keeping the place running.

      1. Kali*

        Thank you! It was especially frustrating when I helped out in the correspondence department and witnessed someone watch a phone ring, say “oh, it’s only the call centre” and ignore it.>< The call centre are the people with a customer on the phone right that second, but that was never taken seriously at all.

    2. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m surprised they reacted that way. Our managers have the same probation periods we do. I wonder if it sounded like you were implying the management sucked but I think it should be ok to ask this.

  221. Lucy*

    I’m in the process of applying to jobs internally at the company I work at. When I applied to an internal position in the past, I set up meetings with the people who would be reporting to me (they happened to be acquaintances of mine) to get a sense of what the job was like and what my potential new leader’s management style was like. At the interview, when I casually mentioned this (oh, I met with Alice and Bob last week to chat about the role) my potential leader seemed impressed with my initiative in doing this, etc., and I think it looked good. I’m interviewing for another role in the company and I contacted a few people who reported to the person who would be my new leader, again, to ask about the person’s management style. When I get the opportunity to ask questions during the interview, I wanted to ask something like “I spoke to a few people who report to you. Can you tell me how you think they would describe your management style?” I can’t tell if that’s a good question to ask or if it’s too wordy and kind of weird? I think I just want a way to mention that I’d taken initiative in contacting others during the interview, but not sure if there’s an easy way to say it that doesn’t feel forced.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      It sounds a bit odd as it’s like you want them to guess what was said to you. Why not just ask how they would describe it? Predicting what other people would say is not an exact science.

      1. Lucy*

        Yeah. That’s how I was worried it would sound. It’s more like I wanted to see how their perception of their own management style matched what their reports actually said about them. I also wanted to kind of work it into the interview that I had taken the initiative to reach out to others but I don’t know how to do that in a non-forced kind of way.

  222. Queen of Cans & Jars*

    I hope people make it to the bottom of the thread! Have you found a way to turn a “disability” into a strength, at work or in life in general? I have anxiety (don’t consider it a disability in the actual sense, just using the word because I can’t think of a better descriptor at this time), and have a super-honed ability to identify (and worry about) every possible result of an action, no matter how remote. For every possible event, I pretty much have a plan A-Z on how I’d handle it. So I realized yesterday that it’s actually working *for* me at my job right now. We have an employee that we have realized is a bad fit and had to start on a PIP (see above question from me), and I was able to direct the team to several possible ways it could go down so that we could determine what our course of action would be, AND I’ve figured out how we can fill his position with some current staff should he ultimately decide to quit or we end up terminating him.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I remember reading about some problem on the Eurostar that wouldn’t have happened if anyone on the staff had had claustrophobia and thought to prepare for this particular situation.

      I have anxiety and OCD. The way my OCD works means I never, ever lose anything. I have locked myself out only twice in my life and both times were because someone else put my keys in the wrong place. So I guess that’s a strength.

  223. Anon for this*

    I’ve been interviewing with a great conpany and last week they made me a really good offer, which I want to accept. My challenge is this: based on the start date they have indicated (1 September, which is also the earliest I can start based on my notice period) I will need to take 12 days of leave in my first two months. This is for religious holidays and for a week long trip that I planned a year ago. I could wriggle out of the trip, but really don’t want to – I will probably not have the opportunity again (for a number of reasons). So neither of these are things I can really push out to a more convenient time.

    I’m aware this is not trivial, that it impacts them in quite a big way (and me, because I’ll have no leave accrued) and I’m prepared to be flexible around how we deal with it. Although I’m not sure what options there are, besides to move my start date out by 2 months and I don’t think that will benefit them or me.

    I won’t need anyone to fill in for me while I’m away. We’d just need to plan the work around my absences.

    Any thoughts on how I should raise this with the hiring manager before I accept? I know that they are extremely keen to have me on board. I’m not concerned about them retracting the offer – that sort of thing doesn’t happen in my country, especially not with large, reputable companies.

    I don’t feel it will be constructive to mention the fact that if their HR department was more efficient I’d be starting a month sooner :-/

    I’m also trying to get away from the feeling that I’m asking for something completely unreasonable because after all, people do have lives outside of looking for a new job and this trip was planned a year in advance.

    Ultimately I’m trying to avoid a situation where I get my leave but it creates negativity at my new workplace, or I feel pushed into cancelling my trip.

    1. Observer*

      If this is the only issue bring it up along with your acceptance. Something like “I’m really happy to accept the job. I do need to tell you that I’m going to need x, y and z dates off for religious holiday observance, and dates a – b off for an event that was planned a year ago, and which would difficult to cancel. How can we work this out?”

      1. Anon for this*

        Thanks! Yes, this is pretty much the only issue, and your suggestion makes a lot of sense.

        I think my anxiety about resigning from my current job is clouding the issue for me.

        Thanks for reading this far down :-)

  224. Anna Held*

    This is a normal thing to ask for. People have plans, and of course you need the religious holidays off (and they’ll need to know that sooner or later). Just give them the dates and ask how they want to work this. I’d go with a simple “I wanted to let you know as soon as possible that I had X trip booked, and we are also running into the High Holidays and I will need certain dates off for religious reasons. I’m sorry to have this all coming up right at the start. Of course I’ll do whatever I can to help minimize the impact. I’m very excited to start working with you”, blah, blah, blah.

  225. Anna Held*

    Just wanted to add that you don’t need to take the word of a random internet commenter — if you search, Alison has mentioned this several times. This should not be a problem.

    1. Anon for this*

      Hi, thanks for replying to my post. I have read Alison’s messages on this topic, and I’ve been in this position before, but what made this challenging for me is the number of days. When I ran into this previously I only needed 5 days. I’m glad to have your feedback that this is not a weird or unreasonable thing to ask for, and your wording will help as well.

  226. Ted Striker*

    I have a really weird question. But I’d appreciate any advice I could get.

    Lately I’ve been trying to reconnect with old coworkers. It’s partly self interest in maintaining my network, but I’m also genuinely interested in how these people are doing.

    But from one of my jobs, I haven’t heard anything back from anyone.

    I left this job very weirdly. Basically, my former boss physically assaulted me, in front of a couple of colleagues. I ended up getting a severance agreement with positive reference from management.

    This was about 2 years ago. I’ve tried reaching out to a couple of them on LinkedIn. One of them even blocked me.

    So basically, what do I do in order to rebuild/maintain these connections? I am a younger guy and I’m worried about making enemies. Or what happens when the current HR leaves and our “agreement” is forgotten, but I need a reference for a bank or a government job.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      I’m sorry but I can’t help wondering if they’ve been told a version of the story that isn’t true.

      There could also be some kind of weird groupthink at work. Sadly it’s not unusual for people to turn on the victim in a situation like this, as horrible as that sounds.

      Was this agreement in writing? It ideally shouldn’t be dependent on who’s actually working there.

      1. Ted Striker*

        I’m sorry but I can’t help wondering if they’ve been told a version of the story that isn’t true.

        Exactly what I’m thinking. The day this happened was the last day I was in the office. My boss was an older guy and a lifer with ~30 years at the company. So they could’ve kept him on due to that, because I agreed to not press charges or disparage him. Or they could’ve cut a deal where he’d get to retire immediately with his pension. Or he could’ve told everyone else a different story in between the incident and HR talking to him.

        Was this agreement in writing? It ideally shouldn’t be dependent on who’s actually working there.

        Yes, I have correspondence including it. But I worry a bit about it not being honored by future management and HR, after all the stories about petty management and HR staff. I may read this site too much.

Comments are closed.