open thread – October 6-7, 2017

by Alison Green on October 6, 2017

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Office Wonderings*

    I think five years of office jobs since I graduated college are starting to leave me a little stircrazy. As I commute to and from my job every day, I’ve been eyeballing all the trucks that pass me with company names on the side. AC repair, pest control, mobile communications, mail/package delivery, pet invisible fence installation.

    I think about a man I met from the UK who drove trucks, or a lorry as he said. He would drive for a year with a large salary, then travel for a year, then go back to the UK and repeat the cycle. I wish I could have that kind of life, but it doesn’t seem feasible for a young female like me. Last night I was even researching office managers and veterinary assistants of pet resorts/kennels/vet postings which seem to make more money than I do, plus animals! (Obviously I know these jobs aren’t playing with cute animals 24/7 but still…)

    I can’t tell if this is a post-college/quarter life crisis hitting me or if I really do want to make a drastic career change. I know office jobs are more sustainable in the long run, which is something my parents drilled into my head, that if I wasn’t pursuing a job for passion, then I should focus on sustainability. So part of me is worried that I’d be messing up a resume that’s a solid foundation of office work for the rest of my working life. But part of me is bored out of my mind and wanting something more hands on and engaging. Shouldn’t I do this now while I’m still young and could switch back to office work later in life (my aunt went from office work to teacher to back to office work, so it is possible)? I know the blog is mostly read by office workers (that’s the idea I get based on most of the office related questions anyway) so I’m curious to hear if anyone has been able to make that transition, or if I’m just a bored employee rambling off about the grass being greener elsewhere.

    1. Specialk9*

      Dog walking. I know someone who walked dogs, and then had so much business she had to hire 4-5 people last I checked. A guy near me doesn’t take clients, he’s booked, but he walks dogs so he can primary care for his baby. I pay $30/visit for my two dogs, and most dogs need 2-3 walks a day. You could build up experience, money, and reputation and do a doggie daycare/boarding facility. Check out major cities and how much dog daycare and boarding costs.

      1. Blue*

        Really? $30 per visit?! Suddenly my career choice seems remarkably poor. Are you in a very large city?

        1. Snark*

          Deduct health insurance premiums, taxes (including both sides of the employment tax), transportation/fuel, and insurance/bonding from that, and it starts to seem a little less lavish.

          1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

            Plus, you’re just getting paid for the time you’re walking the dog. How many 30 minute walks could you reasonable schedule in a day? Like, 5, max? (Nobody needs their dog walked at 8am or 7pm; everyone wants you there in the same 11-2 time frame.)

            My high school job (bringing ponies to kids’ birthday parties) is still the best hourly rate I’ve ever made… except we only got paid for the hour we were at the party, not the time getting the pony ready, or driving to the party, or waiting for the party to start, etc. etc. etc. (Yep, we were paid under-the-table by a company with shady labor practices. But I did get to play with kids and ponies, and made more in one weekend day than my friends working retail did all week.)

          2. Manders*

            Yep, most people I know who had a dog walking or petsitting gig had at least one other source of income. It’s very, very difficult to make a living just dog walking; you need to live in or near a fairly dense and affluent area, you usually need a car to get between clients’ houses, you rarely have benefits, etc.

            There’s an app called Rover that connects dog walkers with clients, so that might be a way to try getting a few gigs, but it’s not quit-your-day-job money.

            1. Optimistic Prime*

              The only person I know who does dog-sitting as his only source of income is my own dog sitter, who I found and book through Rover.com. He is a stay at home dad who has a house with an acre of land and he watches 5-10+ dogs at the same time, so he’s running a full-on in-home dog day care as far as I’m concerned. He never travels for holidays – which is one of the reasons I patronize him consistently because he’s always available precisely when I (and most other dog owners who use sitters) would need him.

              And still, he’s pretty clear about the fact that his is the secondary income in the household.

          3. Blue*

            Fair enough. I’m sure it isn’t as lucrative as it sounds, but fuel costs around here would be negligible, and we have government health care. Not quitting my day job though!

        2. JonesyJustJonesy*

          I’m in DC and my dog walker charges about the same and has a minimum of 2 walks per week.

          $18 for 1 dog/$26 for 2 dogs/$30 for 3 dogs (30 min), $12 for 1 dog (15 minutes)

          Weekends and holidays extra.

      2. ali*

        Wow! Mine is only $15/visit for two dogs and she discounts that if she comes more than twice a week.

      4. Night Cheese*

        Yeah, a friend’s sister has a dogwalking business in Boston, and is doing really well for herself.

        1. Specialk9*

          The kennel we go to is only $50/day (the nearby boutique place with doggie massages costs $100/day, and they have lots of dogs at any given time. They are in a large big dog and a small dog room, and there is an outdoor space with climbing and chill space. They interview dogs for aggression to make sure they can handle it, and feed/medicate dogs. My dogs love it there. They need overnight staffing though.

    2. Blue Anne*

      I totally sympathize. It’s why I’m getting into real estate on the side. Eventually, it’ll be all I do, and I’ll have control over my own schedule. Or that’s the plan.

      I’m buying a powerwasher this weekend. I can’t wait to powerwash things! Way better than invoicing all day for $17/hour.

      1. persimmon*

        My landlord/former roommate did this! He started off as an accountant who bought a house in a cheap neighborhood instead of renting, and leased out all the rooms but his. Then he bought and rented out another house or two, then found an investor, hired a property manager… Four years later he has I think a few dozen properties and a whole little staff.

        1. Blue Anne*

          That’s pretty much how I’m doing it. :)

          I’m rehabbing my own house right now, so I can’t get a roommate, but I have five rental units and am closing on two more soon.

    3. HMM*

      It’s not one or the other, why not keep your office job, then volunteer elsewhere in your free time? The nice thing about vet offices and the like is that they typically have weekend hours.

      I went through the same thing you did when I was about 22-23. Went from a string of office jobs, then seriously considered extra schooling to become a nurse. But before investing the money and risk, I volunteered as a nurse’s aide in a hospital for 6 months, where I realized I enjoyed some parts of the job, but that other crucial parts of the job were not at all to my liking, so I didn’t ultimately pursue it. And I’m really happy about that decision!

      I was really fond of all or nothing thinking when I was younger, but it almost never has to be like that. There’s almost always a way to ease yourself into a decision. Good luck!

      1. memyselfandi*

        I agree with this suggestion. don’t worry about the fact that you are looking around and questioning your choices. I would be more concerned if you weren’t!

      2. Office Wonderings*

        Volunteering is definitely something I would do before taking a big leap. The trouble is just fitting it into my busy work schedule, which of course is one thing that leads to the thought of ‘Wouldn’t it be nice if I didn’t have to do Real Job and just did Volunteer Job full-time’. But yes, there are definitely volunteering opportunities at the places where I might be interested in career changing to that I would look into first. Thank you for the suggestion!

        1. Cercis*

          It was a problem I had. People would tell me “work to make money and then pursue your passion in your free time.” Except there was never any free time. With the commute and lunch break (couldn’t be changed) work took up 12.5 hours of my day – and that doesn’t include the time getting ready for work. Then I had kids and a husband. Weekends came around and I was just too exhausted to do much. Plus work was so toxic that I ended up depressed and had even less energy. I was lucky to get in one volunteer activity every few months and even then I sometimes had to cancel it for kid activities.

          1. Overeducated*

            Yeah. I feel the same way. My free time is basically 9:30-10:30 pm, which is not conducive to doing anything that takes energy and focus. I would rather not write off 40 hours a week!

      3. Moi*

        Check out the book “Designing Your Life.” It was helpful to me and I think it would be perfect for you! You do not need to do a 180-degree turn to get to a happy and fulfilled place. Start with a 15-degree turn and see how you feel . :-)

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      Plenty of people don’t find a ton of life fulfillment in their jobs. That’s okay!

      Sometimes I don’t either. I have other things that I find more interesting or fulfilling. I love history so I read a lot, I like piano and practice and volunteer with that, and volunteer with a local charity at least once a month.

      I also pursued an advanced degree to help me find a career more fulfilling. That might be another option – research something you’d like to do that is more engaging, and look at what it would take to get there.

    5. Manders*

      For what it’s worth, I’m 6 years out of college and feeling the same way. For me, the fantasies are about being in places with sunlight and plants, even though I have such a black thumb I’d kill every plant in a nursery and I know I’d be a lousy park ranger. I’ve also started daydreaming about jobs that give you passive income, like being a landlord, even though I know those involve huge legal and practical hassles.

      I don’t have any solutions, just commiseration. I think this is normal!

      1. Amber T*

        Yep, same here (5 years out for me). If you like video games at all… there’s a came called Stardew Valley where you start off as a corporate drone, clearly hating it, and you open a forgotten letter from your grandfather that magically holds the deed to a farm, so you up and quit everything to become a farmer. Now I hate the outdoors and can’t grow anything to save my life, but man did that game make me have fantasies about starting a farm. I even went as far as to look up farmland prices in random locations (apparently I can get a ton of acres in the middle of no where for the same price I paid for my too small condo). Obviously things in a video game are so much easier than in real life (I highly doubt anyone is willing to pay $50 for a single tomato), but still… the thought is nice.

        1. Office Wonderings*

          There’s a computer game that came out in the last year or two called Firewatch. It’s set during the 70s and is about a man who takes a summer job where he’s alone in a watchpost tower in the woods, keeping an eye out for fires, while he’s free to hike, camp, explore write, read, basically chill in nature and do whatever you want (actual plot does happen in the game, you’re not just kicking around the digital woods).

          Getting into this game, I was drooling over the idea of a summer spent in nature with tons of free time to do whatever I want AND be paid for it. Why can’t that still be a job today?!

          1. Corrupted by coffee*

            I loved fire watch! I found it so relaxing to wander around without a heads up display and just do whatever. Of course, it helped that I enjoyed the story. I found Kona had a similar tone somehow. After a few intense puzzlers, I’m looking for another game like this.

        2. Gingerblue*

          I adore Stardew Valley. If only my life had a soundtrack that cute, tiny adorable sheep, and a cave to hunt treasure in!

          Oh man, now I need to go play.

    6. Countess Chocula*

      What about an office-type job in a restaurant or retail setting? Before you cringe, hear me out. I worked for many years in various retail management jobs, eventually bookkeeping, then HR. I liked it because I still had professional duties, pay, and title–but sometimes it was all hands on deck to, say, unload a truck or help the sales team.

      Today I oversee a large HR department in a very corporate sort of setting. To this day, I still kind of miss the occasional breaks that would come from being able to do something away from the world of spreadsheets and PowerPoint for a moment. (Also, it was a good reminder of how hard those physical jobs were for the employees who did them all the time.)

      1. Adaline B.*

        Also Manufacturing! I’m in IT at a plant and not only is it never boring, I get to wear jeans all the time because I never know when I’ll have to be out in the plant. :)

      2. Beth Anne*

        I am actually a bookkeeper for a local restaurant. I didn’t think I’d like it but 2 years later I’m still here and LOVE IT. The pay is probably lower than elsewhere but it’s def. more interesting than a corporate job.

    7. Apollo Warbucks*

      I met a guy in Croatia who was an accountant in Australia and only left the country once before to go to New Zealand. He has spent the last three years tour guiding around Europe and has been to all but two countries in Europe, it’s tough work but he loves the life style and its been such a good experience for him.

      I’d say take a chance on something different if you get the opportunity to

    8. anna green*

      Go for it. If you are still young and are itching for a change, try something different. Be smart about it, do your research, etc. It may be that you just don’t want to do what you are doing and its not the office thats the problem. Or it could be that its just your specific office and not office work in general. Or it could be that you are built to do something that is not office related, but you’ll never know unless you try, and the longer you wait the harder it’ll be. Spend some time thinking about what you actually want to do, and dont just jump at the first thing you see. The other comment about volunteering first is a good idea. But really, your whole life is a long time to be bored.

    9. Amadeo*

      I switched tracks around 25, I started out as a CVT working in vet clinics but be aware that those kinds of jobs are extremely physical and sometimes very demanding emotionally too. I ended my last job in a vet clinic because I had an aggravated sacroiliac join issue and couldn’t lift much for a while. Boss didn’t like it, but had the sense to wait until it wasn’t much of an issue to ‘mutually part ways’. I went into graphic design and got a bachelors in that and have slowly transitioned to web over the past 8 or 9 years.

      You could see if a local clinic will allow shadowing (you can go in and see what it’s really like). You’d never lack for variety in a vet clinic, no doubt about that, but there are many more tearful goodbyes or exhausting, never-ending illnesses than there are the extreme joys of rubbing puppies awake during a c-section.

      1. Office Wonderings*

        Yeah, the emotional up’s and down’s is a big question mark for me wanting to do veterinary work, which is why I was looking at the pet resorts which seem surprisingly lucrative for the salaries that are posted. I’d definitely look into shadowing at the very least before I make a career jump.

    10. CheeryO*

      There’s a third option, which is office jobs with a major “field” component. I’m in the environmental industry on the regulatory side, and I can pretty much set my own schedule and be out in the field traveling to different project sites and facilities as often as I want. Just knowing that I’m not chained to my desk really helps make the office days bearable, even if I only end up going out a few times in a month. I still have days where I fantasize about becoming a park ranger or something, but it’s a pretty good gig.

      1. Office Wonderings*

        I did apply to several office jobs with outdoor components (including a large hiking organization, a local nature reserve/research center, environmental non-profit, etc) but didn’t luck out getting further with those jobs. I even wondered if it was because I didn’t have anything outdoors/environmental on my resume aside from volunteer gigs. I haven’t given up on something along these lines, I’m just finding them hard to come by and impossible to get into at the moment.

        1. CheeryO*

          Yeah, it’s not the easiest field to break into. Having volunteer experience is great, though! Definitely keep looking if it’s something you’re interested in.

          1. Clever Name*

            I’m in this industry too, but I have a science degree (and a master’s, as do most of my coworkers), so it’s not exactly simple to switch from say, HR, to this field. I’m not saying that this isn’t an option, but I am saying this option would require the op go to school.

      2. CheeryO*

        I guess I should clarify that I do the actual work outdoors, too – I’m not just traveling for meetings.

    11. hbc*

      Can you look for an office job at a teeny company that does…physical things? My manufacturing company isn’t even that small anymore (~45 people) but every single office person gets roped into physical things on occasion, and there are many more opportunities if you actually want to chip in. The smaller the company, the more it’s a feature that, say, you want to get trained on the forklift and fill in when the single warehouse person is out.

      But I would also say that an office manager of a vet clinic is still an office job, and will not look like a major deviation on a resume.

    12. Snark*

      Y’know, I’ve worked various “hands on” jobs like the ones you’ve mentioned – delivery driver, weed and pest control, dog walker/sitter, onsite tech support. And if you think they’re engaging, or wouldn’t bore you out of your mind, or that they provide equivalent pay, benefits, and growth potential as an office job….you’re probably a bored employee fantasizing about the grass being greener elsewhere. Because I found all of those jobs exhausting and boring, the benefits were poor to nonexistent, and they were professional dead ends with minimal growth potential past $22k.

      We all get a little bored, particularly right after college when you realize that there’s no next achievement to unlock. Find some engaging, hands-on hobbies that push different sensory, kinesthetic, and creative buttons than your office work does; mine is cooking, with the bonus that I get to do it every night. But don’t sabotage your own career.

      2. Moi*

        +1. The grass is soooo much greener elsewhere. If you’re not miserable in your job, it’s probably actually a pretty good job! ;-)

        I do think you should experiment while you are young. As soon as you have a family, your priorities will change, and a consistent, decent-paying office job will be very valuable. I’d rather be bored than over-stressed at my job any day, now that I have kids, but when I was in my 20s I would have felt differently and wanted more action and adventure.

        A side gig – be in a hobby, volunteering, or plans to start your own business – can fulfill the needs that your job isn’t fulfilling for you.

      3. Panda Bandit*

        Yep, these are the kinds of jobs where you can be run off your feet and absolutely bored at the same time.

    13. EnviroEducator*

      How old are you, and are you interested in working with national parks, or outdoor recreation in some capacity? If you’re in your early twenties still, check out AmeriCorps programs and the Student Conservation Association!

      1. The OG Anonsie*

        I would be somewhat wary of that. I did one of the environmental AmeriCorps programs and a number of other volunteers got hurt (because, you know, manual labor in parks) and were on the hook for the costs. As volunteers they weren’t eligible for worker’s comp, there’s no paid time away obviously and you have to work a certain number of hours to get your full stipend, and the health care plan provided was very flimsy. The stipend is low enough that everyone I worked with was on food stamps, so an unexpected medical bill is a big deal.

        I don’t know if they’ve changed it at all since I was there, I do know the program in general has been updated. But I would be careful about getting into it without having a big safety net.

        1. AC Alum*

          It varies by program; each state can have a couple different agencies administering slightly different programs. In my state, some AmeriCorps receive the small stipend ($1200/month) regardless of hours worked (with the expectation that they are working full time, it ends up being LESS than the federal minimum wage hourly). Some other programs are paid the state’s hourly minimum wage, which is around $10/hr. It’s worth looking into, just make sure you know the details of the specific program/position that you are applying for. You can end up doing some pretty cool stuff in the environmental positions that aren’t trail crews. Many positions also offer a $5800 education award after you serve 10.5 months, that can be applied to loans or any future education. I still need to use my award for something….

    14. Overeducated*

      Oh my goodness I am RIGHT THERE WITH YOU. I am having so much trouble figuring out what to do with my life because I am in my first full time office job and I really don’t want to sit in a sad cubicle doing paperwork for the next 40 years…but all the jobs I know of with more activity and variety either don’t pay enough, aren’t year round with benefits (outdoor ones in my field), or require insane hours and/or self employment (consulting) that are not compatible with little kids in day care. The two I know of with the right balance of professional level stability and activity away from a desk are really hard to get, geographically dispersed, and not necessarily compatible with dual career families (professor or curator). I have no idea what the answer is, honestly.

      1. Overeducated*

        PS for anyone who might take umbrage at the phrase “sad cubicle”…mine really is. No natural light gets to me.

    15. Horse Lover*

      I’ve been out of college 8 years and it’s still like this. But I’d go with the volunteering or hobby suggestions above. I know the reason why I didn’t go after some of my “dream” jobs was because like Snark said, the pay wouldn’t be enough to live off of, let alone pay student loans, there really was no ‘career’ potential, and only terrible to non existent benefits.

      I think we all start feeling this way trapped in our cubicle farms all day. That’s why my ultimate goal once I pay off the loans is to work part time in a “real job” and in a “dream job” the other part of the time. Seems like the best of both worlds to me. At least that’s what I’m holding onto right now anyway.

      1. Office Wonderings*

        I think I would be very happy to do part-time in a ‘real job’ and part-time in a ‘dream job’ but making two different part-time schedules work seemed impossible for everyone that I know who tried it. And two part-time gigs still leave you without benefits of PTO, insurance, etc. I haven’t taken it completely off the table but splitting between two part-time jobs seems daunting.

        1. Horse Lover*

          Oh, with the benefits, etc it all depends on the company. My company now provides benefits and PTO as long as you work a certain # of hours. I believe it is 30. You just don’t get as many PTO days as someone who works full time.

          My dream plan right now is that I would be turning a hobby into a job that would be me working for me and I would schedule it around the part time real job. But life never adheres to plans :)

        2. Windchime*

          I have a family member who works full-time at an animal shelter in a large city. She gets a very nice salary (around 70k) with benefits and works four ten-hour days a week plus overtime if she wants it. She used to drive around in a truck taking calls, but she found that she is actually happier working in the shelter. She gets to care for all kinds of animals every day (dogs and cats, but also reptiles, birds, rats and guinea pigs). Yes, there are sad times but it’s mostly really rewarding to care for homeless animals and match them up with their new families.

        3. Manuel*

          I volunteer at my local shelter. There are so many things shelters need and there is usually something for everyone! Personally, I help clean, socialize the animals, check donation boxes, wash/dry laundry, wash/dry dishes, run errands, transport animals to vet appointments, fundraisers and special events, and occasionally even help out in their spay/neuter/vaccination clinic. I have been volunteering there for years and it is still thrilling to add an animal’s name to the adopted board.

      2. Manders*

        This is also my long-term plan once I’m in a better place financially. I do have a hobby I’d like to turn into a job one day, but I’m trying to be realistic about keeping a second source of income around; usually people who’ve made it in my dream field don’t start making much money at it until they hit their 40s or 50s.

    16. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Oh, man, this feels familiar. When I was early in my career I felt much the same way… I remember resenting my parents for not providing me with opportunities to consider careers like carpentry. (I come from a classic middle-class story — both of my parents grew up poor and were the only members of their family to go to college or pursue white-collar work. Their expectations for my sister and I were clear — college, then stable, professional work.)

      I took rather… extreme action. I left my first-job-out-of-grad-school after four years, and spent a year living as a resident student at a Quaker retreat center (and cooking in the kitchen to partially pay my way; I covered the rest of my expenses through a scholarship, some savings, a couple thousand dollars of inheritance from a great aunt, and credit card debt). I hoped that I would leave the year with a clear, and new, sense of vocation. I did not, but nearly everything else about my life changed — including how I relate to my work, and that made all the difference.

      In the end, after I left, I needed a job and I was obviously most hireable in the field that I had education and experience. So I continue to work in (roughly) the same field.

      But, you know? Paths are long and winding. I’ve gotten clear about the story arc of my career, and I know what the threads are that draw together the work that I do best. It’s clear to me, and when I’m on the lookout for new opportunities it’s my job to make those threads clear to the people I want to hire me.

      I don’t have advice! Just commiseration and experience.

      1. Office Wonderings*

        I feel this so much! I too have had the same thoughts of ‘Why didn’t my family let me take some engineering/carpentry/hardware/etc classes’! I think it’s really impressive to have gone to a Quaker retreat, that sounds so fascinating (I did some overseas volunteering for a few months; that’s the furthest I’ve gone from my office jobs post-college). Thank you so much for sharing your story, I really appreciate hearing the experiences of others who have gone through similar things.

    17. TGIF*

      I have one friend who has forsaken all office work for a very obscure creative freelance job. She’s basically her own boss but she also has to be her own sales person too because she doesn’t get jobs, and therefore money, without marketing like crazy. She’s happy with her work but stresses on a constant basis about finances and where her next paycheck will come from. She’s keeping her head above water but she’s also getting paid very little for the work she does.

      My dream job would be a fiction writer but seeing her struggling with her freelance career, it’s not something I’m going to quit my day job to do. But I have been looking into technical writing and copy-editing as jobs. They’re still office work but it’s more in line than with my writing dreams than what I’m doing right now. And maybe it would allow me to transition to something else one day.

      I think feel like jobs are a venn diagram with sections for ‘what I enjoy doing’, ‘what I need to for a paycheck’, and ‘what I’m qualified to do’. Where all three sections meet is a very small section but it is out there.

    18. zora*

      Y’know, there are specific programs out there for young women who want to get into the trades. Do you like doing physical things? I have thought about it many times, but I have medical issues that I’m worried would make that difficult for me, so I haven’t gone through with it.

      But trades that are unionized are very sustainable, stable and well-paying! Plumbing, electrical, welding, solar power, all the green industries, etc there are tons of them! Look around your area for a ‘Women in the Trades’ program, most of them have some kind of initial orientation or open house where you can learn more about what the different options are before you have to commit to anything.

      I think you should really explore your options now, while you are young, to see if there is an option you might like better. As someone who feels stuck now that I am almost 40, I wish I’d been more proactive about looking around instead of just taking the jobs that fell in my lap.

      1. Office Wonderings*

        I actually did not know ‘Women in Trade’ programs were a thing. I’ll definitely look into that, thank you!

      3. Lissa*

        Yeah, I think it would be sad if you decided you couldn’t be a truck driver or similar just because you’re a young woman! (if you decide that’s not really for you for other reasons that makes sense but if you think you’d really like it I think you should look into it!)

    19. DevAssist*

      Even though I still have quite a bit of student loan debt, I’ve considered taking out another student loan so I can go through an esthetics program because becoming an esthetician has been really appealing to me for the past year and a half. I have a family member who works as one, and though it has been hard work to build a clientele, she now has envy-worthy flexibility in her schedule and she makes decent money!

    20. Meg*

      Can’t speak to the jumping back part, but my father was an office worker for 25 years before he was laid off. He went to being a long-distance trucker and he said he wishes he’d done it years ago. He was bored to death by the office life and loved never having to go to another meeting again.

      If you think that working in an office isn’t for you, explore what will make you more satisfied! I would hope you can always spin your experience for the positive should you wish to go back.

      1. zora*

        Oh, or most transit systems are unionized so being a transit bus driver or subway driver can be a really stable path with good pay and benefits, too! There’s a period of flexibility as you are training and kind of filling in when you are new, but drivers stick around for their entire careers because of the stability and great compensation.

    22. Bea W*

      Assume you’ll have to work at least until 65-70 years old. Plan accordingly. Can you do something you’re unhappy with that long, a minimum of 40 hours a week (plus commuting and generally arranging your life around it)? Some people can manage that, being content to see a job as a paycheck and a means to and end. Others (like me) need something more than just a paycheck.

      I do think it’s easier to switch gears when you are younger, and 5 years into a career seems like a drop in the bucket to me now that I’m nearly 20 years into mine, and at least another 20 to go.

      1. Office Wonderings*

        When you put it in terms of decades, it makes me want to jump up from my desk and run screaming down the hall and out the front door.

        This is actually a conversation I’ve had with my family and friends many times. There are many of my friends who are in jobs just to get a paycheck and then there are others who are doing things they truly enjoy. I thought I could be diligent in a job just for a paycheck but with each passing year, I feel that less and less.

        I do wonder if I’d be happier in a better setting; right now, I’m working for a company that is very much focused on profit and nothing else. Could I do office work better if I was working for a non-profit, or a university, or a library, or an organization focused less on money and more on quality or the like. It’s why I’m wondering how I’d do at that office manager job at a pet resort because there’s definitely sitting at a desk and computer stuff to do but I’d also have to help out with various things directly related to the animals and their owners.

        And it’s why I’m thinking of this now, with my 30’s still three years off, because I feel like I can still try different things (not that you can’t change tracks when you’re older, like my aunt did in my original post, but you definitely have more leeway when you’re younger).

        Thank you for your thoughts!

        1. Not So NewReader*

          You will be okay, don’t run screaming.

          I did a lot of physical jobs when I was younger. I got into my 40s and my finances tanked because of medical bills. I realized I will be working for the rest of my life. So realizing that I could not keep working like I was, I started looking for more sitting jobs. It’s okay to mix things up a bit. You might even find something that you could trade to office work later on if you need to.

          My best tidbit is to listen closely to the suggestions of people you know and respect. People who I have done volunteer work with and people who I have met through shared interests are the people who have helped the most in changing direction. Be sure to let those around you who you think highly of what you would like to do. Their inputs can be priceless.

        2. AcademiaNut*

          Setting can make a huge difference – all office jobs are not the same. You might be happier in a job where you’re working for a cause you believe in, or you have more variety in your duties, or a place that’s got a better work life balance, where you can leave at 5 and have a life outside of work.

          One other thing to consider – if you’ve been working in the same job for five years, this could easily be the longest stretch of doing the same thing in the same place you’ve ever had in your life. So part of it might be just being ready for something new. That something new could be a job – five years is a good length at an entry level office job – or it could be a new hobby, or saving and planning for some travel, or volunteering.

    23. Mo*

      No advice, but lots of commiseration! I posted a similar comment a couple months ago, and someone reminded me of this post: https://www.askamanager.org/2017/06/ask-the-readers-what-kind-of-work-can-i-do-thats-not-in-an-office.html (if you’re looking for more job ideas). It’s interesting that there are quite a few of us in our mid-late twenties already tired of working an office job. Or maybe it is a quarter-life crisis and happens to twenty-somethings of every generation.

      I, myself, just got a new job, and there are a few meetings a week and an event once a month, so hopefully that will keep me from getting bored in the office. Like you, I’m hoping to volunteer more, now that I have a steady job, and figure out what will work best for me. Good luck!

    24. Em*

      It’s worth exploring what success would look like for you here! Do you want more variety in your day to day? Do you want more time literally outdoors? Do you want an office job with more field time?

      Variety in the day to day is the only thing I can speak to. You could consider volunteering, or you could consider working at startups where you can potentially wear many hats. Retail, restaurants, etc. are also good industries for this. Have you checked your company’s remoting policy, too? Working from home a few days a week might give you a change of surroundings more often.

    25. Dorothy Lawyer*

      My boyfriend drives a truck for a large, nationally-known company, works 9-6, drives just around the city. He has a college degree but doesn’t use it. He loves it, it pays well (as good or better than most paralegals), good benefits and generous overtime pay. And he’s home every night. Office jobs are overrated.

    27. Poppy Bossyboots*

      Go for the career change! It seems like hardly anyone pursues a straight career path anymore anyway. A few years of working other jobs shouldn’t ruin your chances of office work for life.

      For example, I have several friends who left reasonably secure but unfulfilling jobs to come teach in Asia, and they’re quite happy about it. One of them is now a professor at a Korean university (as am I) and the other teaches for a good private school and loves working with kids. The adjustment isn’t always easy, but teaching in general has the benefit of being a lot more engaging and varied than standard office work. Plus, you get to travel.

      And I don’t know about office jobs being more sustainable in the long run–I feel MUCH more secure as a freelancer. My whole paycheck isn’t based on how much one boss likes me, or how successful one company is. I have 5-8 different clients at any one time. If one of them goes out of business or decides to hire someone else, so what? I can always find another. But then again, I love the business and negotiations side of freelancing; it’s not for everyone. It certainly is “hands-on” though, in its own way!

    28. Linden*

      Go for it! The office experience can help you later if you turn whatever you decide to do into your own business someday, or even just in terms of being professional and helpful to the business you join. Lots of non-office jobs with relatively low education requirements pay great, especially if you stick with them and get those years of experience! I know someone who makes $300k/year as a trucker. You might want to try something in your spare time to start off (maybe take the odd jobs or vocational classes on your nights and/or weekends) to get a feel for what you want before you quit your day job.

      On the other hand, you may be able to find something more adventurous within your current field. I was lucky enough to land an office job after college that, after the first year or so, began to involve significant international travel, with site visits to lots of different types of locations- from landfills to beaches to schools. Later, in the summer between the first and second years of my masters degree, I did an internship at a 9-to-5 government office job. The last few weeks of the internship I teleworked and that was great- but during the part in which I was at the office in person, I felt like I was just waiting for the clock to run out, and I realized sitting in an office all day just wasn’t for me. I was way more productive when I could get a change of scenery. I now just finished interviewing for a position in a rugged, remote area that would involve significant travel that I think would be a better fit for me. So maybe you can seek out jobs within your field that are just a little more adventurous than the office work you’re doing now; particularly jobs in more remote/rural areas (if you have that flexibility), or involve field work or travel. Anything to get you out of the office.

      One last thing: there are some aptitude tests that supposedly measure certain “innate” abilities and if you don’t make regular use of those you’re really good at, you’ll feel frustrated. You may want to try one of these out before you decide on your career change, because there may be a specific aptitude that is not being utilized in your office work that would be important to use in your next job. (The Johnson O’Connor Research Foundation has the “original” test; from what I can tell, the Highlands Ability Battery is very similar, but all online. I also have come across online what looks like a much more affordable option from YouScience. Not sure how the quality compares; I’ve only taken the Highlands Ability Battery.)

    29. We have cookies*

      Is it the officce work, or is it the physical exhaustion? My secnd job looked like a jump up on paper – until I sat down, about six months into it, and added up all the costs properly. Once I looked at it, I realised it was in a ‘glamorous big city’ – but it was in an ugly urban desert area that had nothing to do within walking distance at lunch or in the evenings. It took me two hours each way, so four hours a day commuting, and cost me a lot each week in fares. Once I deducted fares and added in that commuting time to my actual working hours, I was at a lower pay rate than shop staff at my local corner shop (which I could walk to in two minutes). And I realised I didn’t like anything at the job enough to stay there at that point.

      I didn’t go into shopwork – but I did make a firm choice that I was going to prioritise a proper work-life balance with plenty of free time for me, my family and friends, even if it meant quitting and taking a pay cut at the next job.

  2. ZSD*

    October is domestic violence awareness month. AAM has had some great posts here in the past about how workplaces can be supportive of employees who are DV survivors, but I wanted to add one thing to the conversation.
    There are 22 jurisdictions (at least) with statutes ensuring that employees can use their paid sick time as “safe time” to seek legal help, social services, medical care, etc., related to domestic violence, sexual assault, or stalking. In some jurisdictions, safe time only works when the employee her/himself is the target, while others also allow it when employees’ loved ones are targeted.
    Safe time means that you can, for example, go to the courthouse to file a restraining order on your abuser without losing pay or getting fired – you can use your job-protected paid sick time.
    These laws (all of them, I believe) also have provisions preventing employers from asking for documentation/certification of the need for paid sick time when the employee is absent for less than three consecutive days. For normal sick time, that means that if you’re home sick for one day with a bad cold, your employer can’t make you get a doctor’s note to prove that you needed the time. In the restraining order example above, it means that if you don’t want to disclose your situation to your employer, you can just say, “I need to use my sick time tomorrow afternoon,” and they can’t ask you for certification.
    (I posted this last October, but some new jurisdictions have passed safe time laws, so I thought I’d post it again.)
    Jurisdictions with safe time provisions:

    Arizona
    California
    Connecticut (subset of employees)
    Massachusetts
    Oregon
    Rhode Island (effective 2018?)
    Vermont
    Washington (state)

    Washington, DC
    Cook County, IL
    Montgomery County, MD

    San Francisco, CA
    San Diego, CA
    Santa Monica, CA
    Los Angeles, CA
    Chicago, IL
    Minneapolis, MN
    St. Paul, MN
    Philadelphia, PA
    Seattle, WA
    Tacoma, WA
    Spokane, WA

    Note that there may be others! These are just the ones I know about.

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      My employer has a similar policy, and a really strong in-house DV policy, both for victims to seek help and for concerned colleagues to request outreach to someone they believe may be suffering DV. I don’t have any experience with how it works in practice, but just knowing that this has been thought of and a plan put in place makes me very happy.

    3. Specialk9*

      My company doesn’t advertise it, but they provide DV support by giving people a close parking spot and walk to the car at night, and posting a photo (out of sight) at the front desk of someone of concern who shouldn’t be allowed on site, and have panic buttons available. Nobody knows, not their managers or anyone. You wouldn’t know except by asking, so ask.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        I’m interested to know why they do not advertise this, I think it’s a great policy.

        1. KellyK*

          Maybe it’s a privacy concern? If everybody knows that the super close parking spot and the escort out the door is DV support, then the rumor mill can start churning when Susie’s car is always in that spot, or Fred has someone walking him to his car.

          I do think it would be helpful to at least advertise that they support employees who are affected by DV or may be in the future, and here’s who to talk to.

          1. Naptime Enthusiast*

            Makes sense – I meant why they don’t advertise DV support at all. I read “nobody knows” as “nobody knows we do this”

    5. D.W.*

      Thank you for posting this. I don’t know if my employer has a policy on domestic violence protection, but I will sure ask HR now!

  3. Generic Administrator*

    I posted a few weeks ago about how I wanted to tell my boss how much I hate my job. You’ll be pleased to know that I took your advice and kept my mouth shut. I was in a pretty bad place that week due to their behaviour, but have had a good fortnight since then (although today almost pushed me over the edge when they almost killed me over the most trival thing, despite two apologies and offering to rectify it).

    Also- I have an interview next week! It is a bit of a stretch job but in the telephone interview they said the roles changed to be more admin-ey- so I feel like I have an even better chance. I know I shouldn’t count my blessings yet, but I’ve already drafted my glassdoor review…

    2. Fabulous*

      I had a job like this once! What I ended up doing on my “breaking point” day, after my boss said something that finally pushed me over the edge, I excused myself for a break and went down to my car and just screamed for about 5 minutes. Was tempted to just drive home, but I stayed and the rest of the day was actually a lot more bearable. Hopefully you can find something that works for you on those rough days! Good luck on your interview!!

    3. Argh!*

      Fantasizing what to say on Glassdoor.com has gotten me through many rough days! Hang in there!

  4. Maggie*

    First week at new job, I turn up wearing the same top as my manager.

    (We’re about the same age and it’s a fairly popular brand/style, but still…)

    At least I know I gauged the dress code right.

    1. NW Mossy*

      My boss and I own a couple of the same dresses, and joke that one day we’re going to have to do a “Who Wore It Better?” when we end up wearing them on the same day.

    3. Chaordic One*

      Halloween is coming up. Have you considered wearing a costume dressed as your boss? (Witch costumes don’t count.)

      1. Ian Mac Eochagáin*

        It’s like the time I came back from my summer hols to find that my boss and I now had exactly the same glasses.

      2. JustaTech*

        Once my whole group dressed up as former members of our group (who had left for bigger and better things). We even got their old badge photos from the security guy and made giant (81/2 x 11) badges to wear. Collectively we were “Ghosts of [group] Past”.

        It was a dark time.

      3. Aardvark*

        Several years ago, my team worked in an area with a bright and distinctive wall color. One day we all coincidentally wore shirts that were the same color as the wall. It was a great day.

    4. Hermione*

      My coworker and I used to plan a few annual events each year, and in our third year doing so, we came dressed nearly identically (down to the accessories) to three different events falling within a 1 month period. Same (unique-ish, not black or navy) colors, same silhouettes, same footwear – it looked like we picked a different uniform for each event. Our boss teased us endlessly about missing the memo.

      For the fourth event that year, I brought it up the day before and again we were both planning nearly the same thing, and both resolved to wear something else. The group-think was spooky.

    5. LKW*

      On a particularly intense and time consuming project the entire team came in wearing almost identical outfits. We had 7 people, four men and three women in black pants and either a red top or that chambray blue oxford color top. The eighth team member was in a red skirt (same shade red) with a black top. She was always a little fancy.

      We looked like a Gap ad.

      1. Kris*

        I’m a female attorney. Years ago I was involved in a jury trial that lasted several weeks. There were multiple parties and between all of these parties several lawyers were involved, including two other women. At the end of every court day we would discuss what colors we were wearing the next day so that we could make sure we didn’t inadvertently match!

        1. Woman of a Certain Age*

          Years ago I read that book, “Dress for Success,” like back in the 1970s. The author told about, among other things, being a consultant for people involved in court cases at the behest of their lawyers. He told of a case involving corporate malfeasance where several employees (apparently all men) were accused of embezzling and he was certain that one of the men was innocent, but they were all found guilty. He thinks it was because the innocent man was dressed just like the guilty ones and the jury just lumped them all together and in a case like that he would have advised the innocent man to dress more distinctively.

      2. Alice*

        On the day we were doing lay-offs/RIFS, the entire HR Team wore black (not on purpose). It was pretty ominus looking. I guess we were all “feeling” the same gloom.

    6. special snowflake*

      My old office was split on two floors – and everyone on my floor shopped at the same 5 places.
      We had multiple items that at least two people had, sometimes the same color, sometimes not. Coupled with the fact that we all wore pretty much the same color palate it was pretty funny.
      We had to coordinate outfit choices on staff photo days… and often threatened to come to board meetings in matching outfits
      It can be a lot of fun once you’re used to it – but it’s really jarring the first time it happens!

    7. MidwestRoads*

      I cringe a little when my boss wears his blue shirt/pinstripe pants and I wear my blue shirt/pinstripe skirt on the same day. I don’t think he notices that we “match” but I SURE DO.

      It could be that I’m hyper-attuned to similar outfits because on my former team at my former company, “Matching Moments” was a thing — and a dearly beloved thing at that!

    8. knitting fiend*

      There’s a shoe store around the corner from the library {a.k.a. easily visited at lunch}.
      Two of the library assistants and I have all bought the same {non-maintstream but very appropriate for our works} style of shoes in the same colors. It’s not at all unusual for all of us to be weearing them the same day…..

  5. Coffee Beans*

    Hi! I’d like to share something that happened to me recently and would appreciate people’s thoughts on it. After handing my three weeks’ notice to my boss, her boss asked me to come to his office. The conversation started off fine. He said he understood my desire to take on new opportunities and wished me well. Then he asked me, “Did anyone in the team know you were planning to leave?” I replied honestly and said, “No one but my references.” (I had asked two of my indirect managers.) He became visibly put off by this and said, “Oh? People gave you reference?” Because I was clueless and all, I asked whether that was an issue, and he basically said that employees shouldn’t help their fellow colleagues leave the company. He then told my boss about it, who got upset, stormed into one of the managers’ office (where a group of managers were chatting) and demanded to know “which one of you did it?!?!”

    In the end she cooled off, and no one got in trouble. My question is whether there was something I should have done differently? I’m just starting out in my career and these two indirect managers were honestly the only reasonable choices I had. They were both happy to be a reference for me, before and after the incident. However, should I have not asked them in the first place? Should I have lied and said no one knew?

    2. fposte*

      Asking them for references was fine; I’d not have directly answered his question. “I kept my plans pretty quiet, because you never know how things will turn out.” That’s your story and you’re sticking to it.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Yeah, I don’t think it was the greatest move to ‘out’ your references at your current job.

      2. Naptime Enthusiast*

        Agreed, I would not have mentioned that anyone at the company gave you a reference. But your boss’ reaction was out of line and paranoid regardless of what you said and probably would have come out in some way anyway.

      4. lulu*

        Exactly. Getting references from inside the company is like an open secret, everybody knows it’s happening, but you don’t discuss it out loud.

      5. Camellia*

        This is the best reply; love this script!

        Most companies for which I have worked forbid the giving of references, saying, at most, to verify dates of employment. But as lulu said below, if it is done you don’t talk about it.

    4. SometimesALurker*

      Your bosses crossed a line getting angry about this. And it’s not true that employees shouldn’t help colleagues leave the company — giving references is a normal thing to do under most circumstances! Maybe someone else has insight into a situation where that’s not true; perhaps it’s okay to have a rule against giving references, and that’s the case here? I don’t know whether lying would have helped you here, because it would be a fairly easy lie to get caught in. Maybe skirting the question by saying something like, “I kept my job search reasonably private” would have worked, but I don’t think that you should have known that the honest answer would cause such a problem.

    5. HR Recruiter*

      Perhaps your company has a policy that managers are not allowed to give references? Either way nothing wrong on your end. And storming in demanding information is a bit crazy.

    6. Infinity Anon*

      Your boss thinks you should be trapped at your current job forever? I can see why you would want to get out.

    7. WAnon*

      A lot of times, the employee contract will specify that you can’t inveigle existing employees away from your company – but that tends to be more if someone moves to another company and then lures you away from your current company. Acting as a reference certainly isn’t convincing you to leave the company. Your boss is being unreasonable but it is also not an uncommon viewpoint. I’d say just not mention it in the future, especially if you get the sense that your boss may not take it well.

    8. LKW*

      Everything you did is perfectly normal and reasonable. Your supervisor and boss are being ridiculous and it will make others significantly more likely to lie to them in the future. Congrats on your new job!

    9. Princess Carolyn*

      Well, I would have lied and said nobody knew, but that comes with risks of its own. Also, it’s 100% normal to ask current co-workers to be references. It would be pretty crappy for someone to refuse to be a reference just because they want you to stay at their company. You did nothing wrong, and neither did your indirect managers.

      Both bosses grossly mishandled this and their reactions are likely to discourage people from being forthcoming in the future. It also might make some people decide they want out of this company ASAP.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      While I do agree that your boss was totally inappropriate, I have seen this happen enough that I tend to keep references confidential. Some people cannot handle that information in an adult manner. Unfortunately, it’s hard to tell until we are in the moment.
      Your boss did back down, so hopefully this will not be a problem for her in the future.

    12. ha2*

      You were fine asking them. In the employment world nowadays, everyone knows that people move on, it’s a bit awkward but not a red flag at all. Clearly you judged potential references well since they were fine with it.

      The boss was acting a bit inappropriate to ask. What business purpose does it serve to know if anyone knew? To judge loyalty?

      That said, given the inappropriate question, it would have been wise to avoid answering it, if you could. I love the “I kept it pretty quiet” answer. But at the end of the day, if your boss kept pressing, you can’t be expected to lie. If your boss is controlling and would retaliate, that’s on her, not you.

  6. Wakeen's Duck Club*

    An organization I support is hiring for a position that’s “right up my alley.” I think that this position could help with expanding the organization’s donor base, although that’s not mentioned in the job description.

    I recently gave a few dollars as part of their recent fundraising campaign about a month ago (before the job was posted). In my cover letter, do you think I should mention my recent donation in the context of expanding the organization’s donor base?

      1. fish feud*

        Agree, don’t do it. It also doesn’t speak at all to what you would bring to the job. Anyone with a few dollars to spare could have similarly donated to the campaign.

      1. Artemesia*

        And if you gave mega bucks, it looks like buying the job, and if you gave a modest contribution you look totally out of touch mentioning it.

    3. Ramona Flowers*

      Nope nope nope. But do talk about the motivation you had to support them, which is presumably also part of why you want to work there.

    4. Michael Rowe the Boat Ashore*

      The problem is that you don’t want to look like you’re buying the job, as a manner of speaking. That’s why I’d be reluctant to even *apply* to the job if it’s a small organization where they know their donors. In a larger organization with multiple departments? Sure, apply (if it’s not in the development/fundraising department), but don’t mention the donation.

    5. Susan K*

      No, don’t bring that up. It would be in poor taste, almost as if you were considering the donation to be a bribe to get a job or something. It would be especially odd if the donation was very small, like you think a $10 donation is going to get you a job.

    6. Naptime Enthusiast*

      Leave your personal donation out of it and instead focus on your interest in expanding the donor base in general, as well as the responsibilities actually in the job description.

    7. paul*

      Nope, all the nope, hell nope. I’ve heard our managers mention that in a bad way when applicants have done it.

    8. KellyK*

      I think a few dollars is pretty minor and you risk looking like you think you’re a big-shot important donor when you’re not.

      I have applied for volunteer positions where they wanted to know if you were a donor to the organization, so it might be something they consider a positive, but if they want to know specifically, they’ll ask.

    9. zora*

      I wouldn’t mention a specific donation, but as someone who has worked in nonprofits, in your cover letter you should definitely say you are a supporter of the organization in a more general way. That is normal to say in nonprofits, and it is something people look for in candidates. And you should talk about wanting to help expand the donor base, talk about how you have some ideas, or how previous experience gives you connections to X community which would be a great place to start finding donors, etc.

  7. Specialk9*

    Layoffs. Advice on living under threat of layoff, or why you chose to leave? Advice from when you were laid off, and lessons learned? Advice on how to manage anxiety specific to job insecurity?

    My company got bought out, and laid off a LOT of people but only in 1 dept. It feels like there’s an axe hanging over us. (I have a “layoff list of things to do and ask” in my wallet, thanks AAM.)

    Why stick it out? I have an amazing manager, and deeply value my independence to do my job, the work/hours flexibility, and daycare subsidy benefit. Why leave? I’m in a niche industry so job listings aren’t super common, and the anxiety about layoffs. I guess I just want to have a better idea of what to plan for, because I can make plans for specifics – but not for giant crushing cloud of anxiety.

      1. Specialk9*

        But what if I burn a bridge by applying at a place I might eventually want to work for, but not take a job now?

        Or should I job hunt and just take what I can get?

        1. K.*

          You know your industry better than I do, but I don’t think that would burn a bridge. Stuff happens, people have things come up. People turn down jobs every day.

          I said before that I didn’t see my team’s layoff coming, but if I had, I absolutely would have started searching.

        2. JulieBulie*

          In most industries, the hiring process is pretty slow, and it’s possible that by the time anyone even calls you for an interview, the layoff may already have occurred. So don’t worry about having to make that decision until and unless it actually occurs.

          For the time being, apply only to places that you’re pretty sure you’d like to work for. If you get an offer and it looks good, take it and don’t look back.

          Is the daycare subsidy benefit from the old company or the new one? If it’s from the old one, it will probably disappear next year or the year after when the new company’s benefits kick in.

          I get that you don’t want to give up a good thing if you don’t have to, but unfortunately that decision may eventually be made by your employer anyway.

    2. K.*

      I didn’t see my team’s layoff coming. If you do see yours coming, get your financial ducks in as much of a row as you can. Take stock. How much savings do you have? Where can you cut back your expenses? How much unemployment are you likely to get, and how long will it last?

    3. Meh*

      I’d start job hunting. I was in a similar situations with the “threat” of layoffs hanging over and the stress was so bad that I broke out in rashes and had trouble sleeping at night. But my boss and the flexibility were good so I wasn’t tempted to leave. But I still did some light job hunting, only applying to jobs that seemed like a good fit (since I was not quite desperate yet) and one of them came through. And after I switched jobs, I felt such relief that my skin and sleep got better within days. And my timing was good because I heard there was another string of layoffs not long after I left. The boss and the benefits at the new place are good too. So I’d say job hunt, and don’t let the current benefits stop you from getting out of there.

      1. Windchime*

        Yes, I agree. I would start looking. When my old company was bought out 18 months ago, they promised “no layoffs related to buyout for x years”. They started laying off like mad almost immediately. I left there about a year ago and there have been several more rounds since I left.

        It doesn’t hurt to look and its best to be prepared.

    4. Michael Rowe the Boat Ashore*

      If there aren’t many jobs in that field, can you look into opportunities to expand or hone your skills (like job training programs)?

      1. Specialk9*

        I can always switch to project management. I have a diverse skillset, but love/am good at/have top quals for my specific industry.

        I think I’m most worried about losing flexibility because I have chronic health issues and a toddler. My current boss doesn’t care about when I show up, or go to the doctor, or whatever – he cares about getting the job done. That’s sadly rare in bosses.

    5. Aunt Vixen*

      Start looking just in case. Having the sword hanging over your head is no fun, but it can be a little less uncomfortable if you know where the lifeboats are. And take care of yourself – it’s a genuinely stressful thing. When we had impending layoffs people were alternating between an all-in-this-together sort of fatalism and a kind of everyone-for-himself snappishness, folks were getting sick more often (I don’t mean “sick days” = interviews, I mean people’s health was really suffering), couldn’t eat, it was really awful. Self-care, man.

      Good luck.

    6. Emotionally Neutral*

      My SO regrets not doing more active job searching when he was in an organization plagued by frequent layoffs, thinking that the company would not eliminate anyone on his overworked, understaffed department. That created a scramble when the chopping block finally came for his team. Put out feelers, keep your networking profiles up-to-date, etc. so you’re not doing that in between crying spells in the hours after getting sent home with a box of your stuff.

      One kind of happy story about this approach: Another person on that team got laid off four days before he put in his notice to leave for a different company. He ended up having fun with the severance and time off between jobs.

    7. it_guy*

      I would definitely start looking for something new now. Just because you are in a niche industry a wonderful new ‘forever job’ may pop up on your radar that is even better than where you are now. Plus you will have the advantage of honing your interview skills. Pretend that they are just rehearsals for your perfect job!

      But don’t take the first offer that comes along just because you feel threatened.

    8. Ms. Meow*

      My company recently went through a merger. Right after they made the announcement, they laid off a bunch of people and did some restructuring. All of us were nervous we were going to be next, or else we had the possibility of mandatory relocation from the east coast to the midwest. A lot of good people left for other jobs. Some have had success, others not so much. After all was said and done, most of my business will retain their current positions and general work location.

      What I did was I recognized that this was an agonizing shitshow that I had no control over. I started putting my feelers out: updating my resume, scoping out job postings, and networking. My idea was that I would stay put unless I found an opportunity that was equal to or better than what I have now. If things had gone sideways, I was ready, and even though things are okay now my resume is up to date and my network connections have been refreshed.

      Keep your head up. It’s going to suck, but you’ll survive.

    9. Been_there*

      Hey, I was unfortunately part of a layoff from a company that went through a few over a few years during hardships.

      I would strongly recommend that you start saving cash and be sure you are in a good place financially so if it does come to that you are financially stable enough to find the next good opportunity, not just the next opportunity.

      Having that emergency fund could help your stress level

    10. Come On Eileen*

      One thing I did when layoffs were impending was to use all of my health care benefits – get annual physical, see my dentist, order contact lenses, etc. I wasn’t sure if or when my coverage might end so I kicked use into high gear (and was glad I did, since I was included in my company’s layoffs shortly thereafter).

      1. GG*

        that is EXCELLENT advice. something i forgot to do before my insurance was running out, and scrambled to do in the end. do it now, make all those appts as soon as you can get in!

    11. LKW*

      When people have a clear sense that they are being let go because the nature of the business model is changing and there is a clearly communicated transition period, people are more likely to commit to leaving on a good note. When someone is notified of a layoff and they are escorted out of the building that day – it leaves a bad taste in everyone’s mouth.

      At one company, they did layoffs over 15 months. It was awful. Later on we discussed that if they had staffing targets then we would have preferred that they just cut the staff in a short time and let us deal with it rather than having it hang over our heads. A lot of people left who wouldn’t have been laid off because they couldn’t deal with the uncertainty.

      At another company, I got my walking papers. But the company was really generous with their severance package so most people were ok and had a nice cushion. Most people got 3 – 6 months to prepare and transition. They provided job searching support too and allowed a lot of people to take whatever time they needed to go to interviews and look for other jobs.

    12. GG*

      I had over a year’s notice for my layoff. For the first 6 months, we just knew our team would be cut, didn’t know the dates/details. (We had a large European presence and they have different laws about layoff notification periods apparently, so they let the whole company know at once.) In January, I found out my last day was 8/31. I was allowed to leave whenever I wanted, but would forfeit my severance if I didn’t work through 8/31. Because I’d been there almost 10 years, I had nearly 6 months of full pay and benefits coming to me so I chose to wait it out. I spent the first few months panicking, then the last 3 months fully overhauling my resume, networking, seeing a career counselor, reading every job posting, and then as I got closer, I really stepped it up and started applying. I ended up getting the first job I applied for and only had a week off in between jobs, but I am still so happy I spent all of that time preparing. (And because I was earning a new salary and getting 100% of my former salary as severance at the same time, I was able to buy my house the following year with a much more sizable down payment than I’d have been able to save without my layoff.) I know they don’t all turn out that way, but I’d say if you get a good severance package and are happy at your job, don’t jump ship right away – but spend a LOT of time preparing!

      2. JustaTech*

        I had a coworker who knew she was going to get laid off, so she job hunted. One day she got a job offer for a great job with better pay. The very next day she was officially laid off. I could hear her coming out of her lay-off meeting two stories up, she was giggling so hard.
        She also bought a house with her severance.

      3. Moonlight Elantra*

        Yep! My severance money financed a second honeymoon a couple of years after my layoff, after I had a new job and we knew we wouldn’t need the money to get by on.

    13. JustaTech*

      That really sucks. My company had basically annual layoffs for about 3-4 years which was pretty stressful. In addition to all the really useful advice everyone here has offered, I’ll suggest this:
      This sucks, and it sucks a lot. Acknowledge that, and don’t let new management try to convince you it’s normal or OK. Be kind to yourself and your coworkers as much as you can, because looming layoffs can really gnaw at the edges of everything.
      Since it’s everyone at your company, try to maintain camaraderie. We used a lot of gallows humor.

      Good luck!

    14. ten-four*

      I was exactly where you are in 2008, only I was pregnant. The stay/go felt really similar: I’m in a niche industry doing exactly what I want to be doing, but we’ve gone through a fair number of layoffs since the acquisition. I wound up not job hunting and was laid off when my kiddo was 6 weeks old. In retrospect, I wish I’d networked more and more aggressively searched (even with the obvious hindrance of pregnancy to cope with). I wound up being un- or underemployed for several years.

      All of which is to say that uncertainty blows, and that the best thing you can do to manage the uncertainty is to take action: network and job search. You may or may not find a job worth leaving your current one over, but the fact that you’re taking action should actually relieve the free-floating anxiety as well as set you up to cope much more effectively should the layoff occur.

    15. HR Recruiter*

      I was in the same boat this year. First thing is to bump up your networking and looking. I let people know I was looking and may be loosing my job. but I was super picky though since I had a job and did not know if I would be part of the lays offs and if I was I’d get severance. When people called me with openings and it wasn’t something I was super into. I thanked them for thinking of me but let them know my job was not eliminated so I am staying where I am. No bridges burnt.

    16. Phoenix Programmer*

      I highly recommend taking charge and looking. I had a boss I really enjoyed and a job that I loved.

      But all of a sudden we got a new CFO. He created a team with the same job descriptions as our team and despite assurances to the contrary, the wiring on the wall was that our team was going to be eliminated.

      I applied for a promotion out of that department. I worried like you that I may be doing the wrong thing. I got the promotion.

      Two years later I am making 40% more than I was in that role and I am growing in a new role that will help me advance.

      That finance team on the other hand was dissolved. While everyone kept their jobs they were moved all around so the team was broken up. Most of the managers quit and they have gone through about 3 of them and currently have no manager. As staff quit they were not replaced so those left are over worked and burning out. Everyone over there is miserable and the departments awful output is harming their professional reputations.

      In short it is always best to take charge and have options. Even if you don’t get laid off the changes stemming from layoffs often drastically change the dynamics of your working conditions.

    17. mrs__peel*

      I was living anxiously under the threat of layoffs for most of last year– I kept my job, fortunately, but it was hugely stressful. I’m afraid my advice comes from doing basically everything wrong myself (in terms of my physical and mental health).

      I did NOT take care of myself properly when all that was happening. I’d strongly advise trying to get out for regular walks (or whatever kind of exercise you like), and keeping stress-eating to a minimum. (I had some major issues with the latter, and the election didn’t help much with that…)

      I didn’t do a great job of saving money beforehand, which would have eased my mind a great deal. (I’m trying to do better with that now). So careful budgeting and saving as much as possible may help you feel slightly more in control of things.

      I also spent a lot time holed up in my house alone, being depressed, when going out and seeing friends and family would have done a lot to improve my mental health. I’d advise trying to keep in regular contact with people and doing free/inexpensive things (e.g., cooking dinner at home, going for walks, watching Netflix, etc.)

    18. Malibu Stacey*

      If your company has laid off employees leave right away, start straightening up your desk/office, and slowly bringing home, tossing, or shredding the stuff you don’t need. That way if you do get laid off, you can just pack a small bag or box and be on your way, and don’t have to worry about going through all your drawers to make sure you don’t leave anything important behind.

    19. Bess*

      Lots of good advice here already. I had one situation involving a merger and large takeover, layoffs, and culture change, and I left eventually even though I’d bet my job was pretty safe…I’ve just always been a worrier with salary/paychecks and the risk was too much for me.

      In your case, where you have a lot to keep you there, I’d just focus on future-proofing yourself and gaining a sense of control–even just the feeling of control does a lot to keep anxiety at bay.

      I’d definitely second the advice to start saving as much as you can afford to keep in the bank (plus using any health benefits). I’d also start job hunting, if only for the sense of control. Hiring can take such a long time that putting feelers out now might not get results for 6 months anyway. If you do end up getting an offer, cross that bridge when you come to it.

      It sucks, but even really good places can become dismal after layoffs. People get scared or depressed, motivation can dip, and some good people will leave. So even if there’s lots of great stuff at this job, you may want to leave eventually anyway. You could consider a job search as a favor to your future self if this is what happens at your company.

      Not to sound negative! But particularly if you decide to stick it out I’d start shoring up finances and figuring out one or two contingencies–having even a couple of months of expenses might help reduce your anxiety about it and make sure you can make decisions from a stronger position.

    20. Elizabeth West*

      If you know it’s coming or suspect it might be, then yes, I’d start looking. That’s not a commitment–it’s a search. You’re not obligated to take anything at this point. You’re just seeing what’s out there. I can’t tell you if you should apply and interview right away; you’re the only one who knows the tone of what’s going on at your company, and when the best time will be to do that.

      I’d also cut back on expenses as much as you can, just in case.

    21. Witty Nickname*

      There are so many factors to consider, but I’ll tell you my experience. My company was bought out a few months ago. They came in and laid off almost the entire first 3 layers of leadership the first day. Since then, several hundred more people were laid off (all except one other person in my location from my former team are gone. My current team, that I was moved to a couple months before we were bought out, only lost a couple people). Some of my coworkers started searching immediately, that first day. Others took a wait & see approach. What we all did try to do was find out what the severance package would be, at least look at job boards and see what types of jobs were available, and get our resumes and cover letters updated.

      People who hadn’t been here very long were more seriously looking for jobs than those who had been here for several years. Severance is tied to how long you’ve been here, so that makes sense. I took a wait and see approach, because I’ve been here long enough to get several months of severance (and I live in an area where they are required to pay out PTO, and I have a TON built up). I also had a pretty srong suspicion that I had a good chance of not being laid off, but my husband was almost definitely going to be (I was right – but he maxed out the severance, so yay!), and wanted to keep as much stability for our family as I could. I’ve had a couple companies contact me, and have followed up on jobs that interested me, but I haven’t seriously been looking. I am now in a position that isn’t really where I want my career to be in the long term, but is going to get me some really good experience that will hopefully help me get to where I want to be (I was actually transitioning into the type of role I really want to be doing before we were bought out, so I don’t love that I’m being delayed in that, but this experience should actually set me up better for it, or for moving on to whatever my next role ends up being).

      Whether or not you should just take what you can get, if you do job hunt, depends on how long you’ve been at your company (are you one of the newest, and thus probably the most likely to be laid off from your team), can you get a sense of whether the new owners already have a lot of people doing your job (and is it something that team can absorb from your company pretty easily), creating too much duplication, etc. I had one coworker who had an offer in hand and was able to postpone her start until after she was notified of her layoff here – she was honest with her new company, saying she didn’t want to leave severance money on the table, and they agreed to postpone her start a couple weeks (she did have to set a date by which she would just walk away from the severance though, and be ok with that in her mind).

  8. Assistant in Distress*

    How much should I push back on a desk move?

    I am an assistant to a trio of directors, and have been here only a few months. They’re all in offices, and I’m in a row of cubicles outside their doors. Some recent moves have come up (people left and new people hired on). I thought I was safe but when the desk right in front of their offices opened up, the directors made me move. Now I literally just moved one cubicle down from where I was, maybe a dozen feet, but it makes a huge difference to my day.

    I’m now right next to a very busy conference room that is not at all sound proof. I can hear meetings going on like they’re happening in my cube. It is so incredibly distracting. My productivity has plummeted since moving because my focus is constantly shattered by the meetings. I can’t use noise canceling headphones because I need to hear my directors when they call out to me so I’m just stuck with this noise.

    I really want to ask to move but I’m not sure they’ll let me. When I said that I wasn’t thrilled with the move initially, they just said that I’d get used to the noise and they wanted me closer. It’s so frustrating because I’m only closer to them by a dozen feet than my last desk, where I couldn’t hear the conference room at all and could still work with them just fine. Another employee has been trying to move and the directors have apparently stopped him because we’re too busy to move anyone else. I’m hoping in a week or two, they will start shuffling people around and I can ask again but I’m worried they’ll say no. How can I make my case stronger? It’s such a small move that I don’t see why it’s a big deal to them when it is a big deal to me because I feel like I can’t function when meetings are happening; I’ve even been getting pounding headaches at my new desk. I’m tempted to be bluntly honest and say to them that I get nothing done when meetings are happening so wouldn’t it make more sense to move me where I can be productive for them and not be bothered by the meetings. ‘Help me to help you’ kind of thing since I’m no use to anyone unfocused and with constant headaches.

    1. Murphy*

      Can you frame it as “Now that I’ve given it a try, I really am finding that it’s disruptive for reasons x, y, z, and it makes it difficult for me to complete a, b, c….” Be specific about how it impacts your helping them. Make sure you really have given it a try though. I’m not sure how long you’ve been at the desk, but give it at least 2 weeks.

    2. Sadsack*

      Not sure about asking for another move because someone has to sit there eventually, right? Maybe asking if a white noise machine can be installed above the conference room would make more sense, especially if they ever plan to discuss anything sensitive or confidential in that room.

      1. Jennifer Thneed*

        The person sitting there could easily be someone who *can* use headphones, though. The poster doesn’t have that option because of the nature of their job.

        Hey Assistant in Distress – talk to *one* of your managers and give them numbers. Numbers equal actual money to managers. “I’m accomplishing 30% less because of the noise and interruptions.” If they ask you to validate that number, tell them “my focus is constantly shattered by the meetings”. If you can, come up with something specific like “planning business travel usually takes me less than 1 hour but during the last 2 weeks it’s taken me at least 2 hours each time”.

        Just keep telling them that you can’t do the good job that you want to do, and you find that distressing, because you *want* to help your bosses succeed. You’ve got the right idea, in that the message you want is not “I have trouble doing my job”, but rather “I have trouble giving you the assistance you need”.

        Good luck to you! Maybe get yourself some flowers for your desk, just because.

        1. Sadsack*

          All good points. However, I am still kind of surprised that the director’s don’t care that anyone in the vicinity of the nearest desk can hear everything being said in the room. You’d think they’d would want to prevent that.

          1. Jennifer Thneed*

            So yes. I’ve worked in plenty of places where confidentiality was a real thing. I don’t get how people can have NO situational awareness about volume levels.

            Did you see the story last month about the Washington lawyers who didn’t keep their voices down? (Oh gaw, I just looked at the picture and they were sitting *outside*. Double-plus idjits.)
            https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/09/18/trump-lawyers-spill-beans-after-terrible-restaurant-choice-next-to-nyt

    3. fposte*

      It sounds like the issue is that you’re support staff for the people in the offices, and that they might have noticed a problem with the distance even if you didn’t. You can still bring it up, though.

      I would say that the couple of weeks you’d have to wait before bringing it up is probably a good interval for you anyway, because those are two weeks where you are going to try your utmost to develop focus that makes this new desk work and coach yourself out of paying attention to the conference room. If at the end of the time it’s still a problem (and your old desk is still open), I think it’s fine to go to your manager and say “I gave this a really good-faith effort and I understand that it’s useful to the directors to have me closer, but the distraction of the conference-room noise means I was actually more productive at my old desk. I’d like to move back. Is that possible, and what do I need to do to make that happen?”

      And be aware that the answer may simply be no, it’s not possible; think about what you want to do if that’s the case.

    4. FormerOP*

      Ask! There is a saying “you already have the no” that I find useful at times like this. Some folks need more noise or more quiet than others, you sound like you know yourself and your needs. A polite ask for a desk move seems completely reasonable. Just point out that it is too noisy for you, and ask for the move.

    5. AFineSpringDay*

      I’m about to move into what is our storage area – I’m losing my desk near everyone else because we need more space for a new boss. People are actually concerned I’ll be lonely, and I tell them they underestimate just how much I like being alone. So I feel your pain, that sounds unbearable.

      1. sunshyne84*

        Same. lol I’m in the old library and I love the solitude. I couldn’t stand the cubicle farm especially since I was right near the door and everyone was always looking over my shoulder.

      2. On Fire*

        Ha! I work in a storage area, too, and I *love* it. Everyone is afraid I’ll get lonely, but I do a lot of field work, so I’m rarely there anyway.

        I agree with the PP’s who said give it a couple of week, and then take your specific issues (disruptions, hard to hear on phone, whatever), and ask if it would be possible to either return to your previous desk or install soundproofing for the conference room.

    6. LCL*

      In your post you talk about the physical effects to you. But you have barely talked to your managers about this, except to mention feelings. They don’t care about your feelings, I doubt they have spent any more time thinking about this.
      When you meet with them, stick to concrete physical facts. Because this is a physical problem that has a physical solution. You did a great job of identifying these physical factors in your post. Tell them!
      ‘I can’t work well in my new cubicle because it is much noisier than my old cubicle.
      I know it’s only a move of 12 feet, but that puts me next to the conference room. I can hear every word that is said in the conference room. And noise cancelling headphones aren’t an option because I can’t do my job with them on.
      Because of the conference room noise, I get constant headaches. I never had them at my old cubicle. And my productivity has drastically dropped, because every time I hear something I lose my concentration. Between the constant headaches and the constant interruption, I can’t do the good job that I want to do.’

      My hearing was never exceptionally acute. When I was younger (premanagement days) and people would complain about background noise making their life harder, I thought they were just being high maintenance and making it up as an excuse to get out of something. Because I couldn’t hear it. You could have your bosses drop by your desk when meetings are in full cry, but the noise might not bother them like it bothers you.

    7. JulieBulie*

      If you can hear everything going on in the conference room, can you claim that you are hearing things that you probably aren’t supposed to hear? We have a cubicle that’s now used only for storage because the person sitting there was getting an earful of stuff… private conversations, verbal abuse, cunning plans, etc. in the adjacent conference room.

    8. Candy*

      Maybe you’ll have better luck asking to rearrange the cubicle walls instead, so you’re still close to them but have a bit of a noise buffer between you and the conference room.

      This isn’t a good diagram but if you’re in a three-wall cubicle, and the “door” is open towards the conference room, maybe you can move one wall 90 degrees moving the door to another side. Like this:

      CR ]

      CR | _ |

  9. intldevtprofesh*

    Happy Friday, everyone! I was wondering if AAMers have any thoughts about “Professional Masters” degrees, as opposed to conventional research-focused Master’s programs? The professional program is about practical knowledge, and the designation is slightly different- instead of M.Ed., you would receive a PME.

    I am managing an education project for a non-governmental organization and would really like to expand my knowledge of issues like learning assessment, curriculum, pedagogical methods, etc. Would employers recognize a PME as just as valuable as a conventional Masters?

    1. Angela's Back*

      I imagine the relative value of/preference for the two degrees would depend on the organization. So if you were in an NGO that primarily does policy work, I’d think the research focused master’s would be better, whereas if you’re in an organization that emphasizes front line support for teachers, the practical focused master’s might be preferable. I’m in a field (archives/records management) where the master’s is pretty much required and although the emphasis is on gaining the practical experience while you’re in school, in my program you could choose to do a final project or a final thesis, and what you want to do/where you want to end up definitely influences which of those people chose. Most people do the practicum because they want to have that big project to talk about in interview, whereas people who are wanting to go on to the PhD program are more likely to choose the thesis option. I would ask around in your field see what people who are doing what you do/manage what you do say.

      1. Grits McGee*

        Well hello there fellow archivist!

        I got a more academically-focused Public History degree over an MLIS or ALA-accredited archives degree. While I got a broader theoretical background that has at times come in handy, I do feel like I’m at a disadvantage when it comes to skill sets (esp cataloging and digital topics) compared to coworkers that came from more focused archives graduate programs. I’m also at a disadvantage when it comes to looking for jobs, as many institutions want degrees from ALA programs.

        intldevtprofesh, since you’re in education, I would look at job listings (especially if you’re paying for it yourself) to see what the field values more, especially since academics and the academia-adjacent can get a little sniffy about one variety of degree vs. another. You can always pad out the deficiencies of a degree program with one-off classes and programs.

        1. Angela's Back*

          Hey hey, go archives! And seconding the advice about looking at job postings, what people are actually hiring for is always useful information.

    2. OtterB*

      Hopefully others can speak to how it’s viewed in the education field. In many STEM fields, a Professional Masters degree is good for someone who will be working with researchers but not doing research herself – something like a lab manager or project manager role. It positions you as someone who understands the technical side of the field but also has management skills. And the wise researcher deeply values someone who supports her well. :-)

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I’d go see what people are hiring for. Do you need a terminal degree? Is the PME considered terminal? What are the requirements for the kinds of jobs you want? Are there people hiring who can speak to you about what they would prefer?

      One reason I didn’t get an archives degree and instead got an MLIS is that archives degrees aren’t considered terminal, so most universities (which require people to have terminal degrees and are judged on how many have them when they go through accreditation) want the terminal degree. I found this out by asking lots of people in the field for their advice. Most people are willing to answer your questions if you just ask politely.

    4. ArtK*

      I’m in the process of completing a professional master’s degree. It’s an MS in Engineering Management. Since I’m reaching a point in my life where software developer jobs are going to much younger people, management is my route forward. Note, that this is designated as an MS so at that level isn’t distinguished from a more academic one. You have to look at the certification to pick up the difference.

      In your case, an employer who would accept an M.Ed over a PME for the type of work you’re doing is far too focused on the degree name and not on the skills. Frankly, unless you’re being employed as a researcher, having the more academic emphasis isn’t really a plus — practical stuff is far more useful.

    5. Julianne*

      I’ve never heard of a PME before; I’m in education, but I’m a teacher (in the U.S.). Looking over some of the Google hits, all the PME descriptions sounded pretty similar to my M.Ed program, which was not a research-focused degree. I realize that doesn’t answer your actual question, but I just thought I’d offer the clarification that (at least in the U.S.), education master’s programs (MA or M.Ed) aren’t necessarily research oriented the same way other graduate degree programs are (though of course, there are those that do focus on research).

    6. Lady Kelvin*

      There are several schools in my field that offer Masters of Professional Science degrees (STEM, where you usually either get an MS with a thesis or a PhD) and they are considered a joke. Since the only places you can work with one is NGOs (in our specific field), you’ll get paid 30K if your lucky and have spent a fortune on a worthless master’s degree, because you can’t get a lab job in our field with it, you need a thesis-based MS. I work in a particularly low-paying STEM field, however, and so the difference between entry level BS pay and PhD level pay isn’t much. The PhD allows you to move up in your field, while the BS/MS has a very strong ceiling. I’d suggest asking people within your field how they are viewed, because it could be very field dependent. If someone asked me if I thought they should get one in my field I would tell them that it would only cause them lots of debt and hurt their professional reputation.

  10. Sassy AE*

    My yearly review is on Monday, pray for me. This past year has been up and down, which is kind of worrying. I’m not on a PIP or anything, but I don’t know if it’s the right time to ask for a raise.

    3. LKW*

      Prepare a review of your accomplishments and what you’d like to achieve in the next year. If you feel you deserve a raise based on merit, be prepared to discuss what you’ve done to earn the raise and what you bring to the company.

  11. Susan K*

    Several of my coworkers have really annoying habits — things that they do almost right but not quite, or low-priority things they just don’t do due to laziness. Any single one of these things is not a big deal, and most of them are not necessarily against any rules, but are just matters of common courtesy or common sense. I think I would look extremely petty if I complained about these things, but they happen over and over again, and they really add up, not only in time but in irritation.

    Part of the reason is that my job is shift work, which makes it easy for people to pass things off to the next person, but I take pride in my work and I don’t feel right passing something that I know is wrong to the next person, so I am always the one to fix things, even if they’ve gone uncorrected for 4 or 5 shifts. I know people do these things out of laziness, not because they’re too busy, because I see most of them surfing the internet for hours per day.

    I can’t really see myself going to my boss to complain that Fergus didn’t refill the stapler and Lucinda used the last of the dark chocolate chips and didn’t get another bag from the supply cabinet (oh yeah, another problem is that half the time, I don’t even know who did something, because it could have been anyone who worked the last 5 shifts), but is there a good way to address the pattern of multiple people doing many things half-assed?

    Here are some examples (there are many, many more, but I tried to stick with ones that don’t take much explanation):

    – The stapler runs out of staples, and instead of putting more staples in it, they will use a different stapler (even when there is a box of staples closer than the next-closest stapler).

    – They will fill out the last line on a form and not print another (blank) copy of the form. Or they will use the last page of a stack of forms and not print more.

    – They will add a page to a binder but are too lazy to open and close the binder rings, so they will just slip the new page between bound pages (this is especially fun when I pick up the binder and all the loose pages fall out).

    – There are some items that we need to rinse for an extended period of time before reusing them. People will put the items in the sink but not bother to turn on the water.

    – After the items are rinsed sufficiently, we have to inspect them (which takes less than 5 minutes), and if they are satisfactory, put them back on the shelf for reuse. We usually only have 1-3 items per shift to inspect, but most people are too lazy to do the inspections, so when I’m off for a couple of days, I will come back to find 10 items waiting to be inspected.

    – They will use the last of something and leave the container empty instead of going to the supply cabinet to get more.

    – Sometimes we have to run a calculation using a computer program to get a number to put on a form. Each calculation is saved by the program and can be retrieved later if needed. However, people are too lazy to type a description for the calculation (such as customer name, order number, etc.), so if we need to retrieve the calculation later, it is very difficult to figure out which calculation is the one we need.

    – When we make a handle, spout, or lid, we put it in a box and then put a sticker on the box with our initials and the date. The stickers are color-coded (red for milk chocolate, green for dark chocolate, blue for white chocolate) to make it easy to find the right type of chocolate, but some people can’t be bothered to use the correct stickers and just grab a sheet of whatever color is nearby and put that color on everything.

    – Certain types of documents are supposed to go in color-coded folders. The folders have pockets and prongs. It’s common sense that we’re supposed to punch holes in the documents and put them on the prongs, but this is too much trouble for some people so they just shove the documents in the pockets. Sometimes they can’t even be bothered to put the document in a folder and just clip it with a binder clip instead.

    1. Michelle*

      What would happen if you didn’t do these things? Would they continue to go undone?

      I understand your frustration. Many of my duties fall into the “office manager” category and it’s incredibly frustrating. Simple things like: paperclip your receipts to your credit card statement, don’t staple it because it has to be scanned or fill out your time sheet before X date at X time. Like you, many people just can’t be bothered to do it, yet they have ample time to surf the internet.

      If you can, just stop doing them. If/when someone complains, simply say “yes, that’s frustrating” and go on about your business. For me, it’s a cycle-I will tell them, they will do better and then they fall right back into the habit. If it wouldn’t hurt our company, I would stop doing them altogether, but I feel bad about holding up payroll for the whole company because someone couldn’t be bothered to fill out their time sheet.

      1. Specialk9*

        I was thinking “office manager” too.

        There’s also a tendency for people to figure things magically get done. Force yourself not to do any of these things for 2 months. It will pain you. But let them go, and let other people start doing these things.

      2. Susan K*

        Well, a lot of these things are inconvenient to me when I’m trying to do my job. It’s more convenient for me to put more staples in the nearby stapler than look around the room for another stapler that has staples in it… but it would really be nice if someone other than me could put more staples in the stapler so it’s not empty when I arrive. It’s easier for me to spend 20 seconds putting a document on the prongs of a folder than to have to pull the document out of the pocket every time I need to look at it… but it would really be nice if the person who printed it could have just put it on the prongs in the first place. If someone leaves a container of something I need empty, I have no choice but to go to the supply cabinet to get more… but I wish the person who used the last one would have the common courtesy to refill the container so it’s full for the next person who needs one.

    2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I think the key is this part of your sentence: “most of them are not necessarily against any rules”.

      Most of that is annoying, but it’s like living with bad roommates annoying. Nothing’s really going to change if you point it out, you’ll just be venting.

      I would push back on the box colors and the calculators because that impacts work. With the calculators, can you set the program to give a default date/time/user initials ID if they put nothing in? It would make it easier to track. With the box colors…hm. In theory you could put all the stickers away, but then the boxes would just be unlabeled. Maybe just a stash near the boxes? That one is for your peace of mind. You don’t have to do it, I’m just not seeing people changing. Maybe you could keep your own private stash so the mislabeled ones won’t bother you?

      Honestly, some of the stuff you are complaining about sounds similar to the admin letter earlier this week. If it’s not in your job description and no on else is doing it, let it drop, too. Otherwise you’ll spend a lot of time doing work that’s not your problem and has no impact on your bonuses/etc.

      1. Susan K*

        Does there really need to be a rule to put more staples in the stapler when it’s out of staples, or to open the binder rings and put the rings through the holes in the piece of paper? I consider that type of thing to be obviously common sense or common courtesy, and I figured that’s why there are no rules about them — because most reasonable people can figure out what they’re supposed to do in these situations.

        The calculation program does save the date and time for each calculation, but that’s not really much help because we typically do several calculations per day. If we do have to look up an old calculation, we have to try to figure out the approximate date and time it was done, and then open all of the calculations that were done around that time to try to guess which one was the one we need. In theory, we shouldn’t have to look up any old calculations because we’re supposed to enter the final result in a database (which is why most people don’t bother taking the extra 10 seconds to type in identifying information), but occasionally, people forget to enter the result in the database, and it’s often several days later when someone realizes the result is missing from the database, and that’s when we have to go back to the calculation archives.

        1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

          I’m speaking as a person who had a roommate leave dishes in the sink for 2+ weeks (when unemployed and at home >20 hours a day) and has a staff-stocked kitchen that 2 out of 12 people ever buy stuff for. I get where you are coming from, and it SHOULD be obvious. However, some people don’t notice, don’t care, or won’t change when you point it out anyway.

          So I would push back on the things that impact work in a demonstrable way (like you just described about the calculations) to your boss. And I’d use those examples. The others? Unfortunately, those are the people you work with. You can try it, but don’t be surprised when nothing changes.

          1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

            For clarity:

            The office reimburses for food/snacks–you just have to go and get them then file for the reimbursement paid out in <2 weeks. People just don't.

    3. Master Bean Counter*

      You need to go to your boss and explain that your work really needs everybody to follow basic standards, especially with the labeling. Sounds like you have management that just doesn’t pay close attention. Maybe you could document how much time you waste because things aren’t done right? That would get their attention.

    4. hbc*

      I think it’s okay to go to your manager and lead with, “Some of this stuff may be petty, and I’m okay even if you decide none of these things are worth addressing. But I think if even half the people did half the things I’ve got on my list, we’d see better productivity.”

      Put the items on your list in decreasing order of importance. (To be honest, when you lead with staplers, I was thinking you should just grumble and move on.) That calculation thing is a pretty big deal, and as a manager I would want to announce that people absolutely need to put identifying information in. I’d also want a chance to consider the colored stickers and decide whether the color coding is unnecessary (and just give one color sticker) or to start bugging the people whose initials are on the wrong color label.

      Then back off and let it be.

      1. lulu*

        Agree with this approach. And present it as a general thing, not against one person in particular, since it sounds like multiple people are doing it.

      2. nonegiven*

        Shouldn’t the needing inspection things be up pretty high, too? How many shifts left it undone while you were gone?

    5. LCL*

      This is always a challenge with shiftworkers. Things are left undone, or left for the next shift. The next shift sighs and fixes it and doesn’t say anything until someone is virtually homicidal with rage at jobs left undone. So they go in and shout at the manager about how Random is a lazy glassbowl and Brand is sleeping behind the boxes and how come you manager don’t do anything about this thing that we haven’t told you about before this?

      This falls on you to make a list of tasks. And the shortcuts people are taking and why they don’t work. Then talk to your manager and leave names out of it. Present it as too many things are getting dropped between shifts, and you are asking management to fix this communication problem because it seems like you are always finishing others’ work. Leave out all the value judgements, even though they are true.

      Management will have kind of an idea who the slackers are, but may not know to what extent. It sounds like what is really needed is someone with some authority on the other shifts, but this might not be possible. At minimum, management needs to get the word across to all shifts that, for example, completed packages must be labeled correctly and remind them what correct labeling is.

    6. LKW*

      It sounds like you work in a lab or other environment that has external oversight. Prioritize the issues in terms of impact and compliance. The stapler thing is annoying but no one who oversees your industry will write your organization up for empty staplers. However, mismanagement of files and processes can result in fines or worse. Discuss standards that would impact an inspection or audit of your workplace. Those are the ones on which to focus.

      Someone is in charge and someone is not laying out expectations. That’s the person to approach.

    7. Koko*

      I would be happy if my one colleague would stop marking every single email he sends me as Urgent/High Priority when it is never, ever either of those things.

    8. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      You know what? I just thought of something. Any people that get the “other duties” title for random stuff in your department? You could make up a general department list for daily/weekly checks of whatever is normally the problem and give that list to that person.

      We had this issue in the lab (onboarding issues with the new hires) and I ran the list by my supervisor and group before implementing. It cut down on 85-90% of the issues. Not sure if it’s an option for you.

  12. Farah*

    Someone on a social media webpage shared an article about interviewing. It advises that the point of the interview is to find out what the problems/shortfalls the company is facing (or potentially facing) and offer up solutions. This sounds a lot like the ‘pain letter’ strategy, but an in-person version. Am I right to think this is terrible advice and that interviewers are more likely to be put-off by this than be impressed?

    2. Specialk9*

      Eek. No! See yesterday’s article about know-it-alls!

      A different approach is to figure out some pain points and explain how your background enables you to come in, learn, and help problem solve. But coming in and shooting from the hip comes across as thinking they’re stupid, and that you’re arrogant, that you can know how to fix something without pausing to listen or learn about the big picture and details.

      1. Naptime Enthusiast*

        Also, “Pain letters” have been covered in past articles as a gimmicky cover letter method.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know for certain that interviewers are more likely to be put off by this than impressed by it, but I will say interviewers who are impressed with “pain letter” strategies are not the people you want to work for.

    4. Sheik Yurbooti*

      While listening to the interviewer during the interview is important (duh) and you always want to highlight your skills and experience as it pertains to the position and company, you should never leave solving their ‘pain points’ to the interview process and answer on the fly.

      Always, always research the company ahead of time (especially if it’s public — harder if private but not impossible), the position, current and former employees, industry buzz, news stories, etc. before you go in and give it some thought as how you being hired would improve their company. Great if you can pivot to addressing pain points in person, but there is no guarantee the interview will go in that direction. I’m not sure if the interviewer would be put-off, but without previous research and knowledge of the role/company you are not going to come across as a viable candidate.

    5. Master Bean Counter*

      I tend to try to dig to find out what things the company is looking to improve or where they know they currently have shortfalls. Mostly because I’d like to gauge how much of a challenge I’m going to be walking into and if it’s something I’m capable of fixing or even interested in trying to fix. But I don’t offer up solutions. I will talk about how I’ve addressed a similar problem in the past, if it’s relevant.
      But to offer up solutions, that’s short sighted.

    6. hbc*

      Hasn’t a company usually told you their relevant problems and shortfalls when they post the ad? We have a problem in that we don’t have enough people to do these things we’ve listed, and to fill that shortfall we want someone who can do those things.

      I mean, bonus points if you hear their story and walk through their shop and are like, “Uh, I can do a cost analysis on the expense of OSHA citations and workers comp versus buying welding masks. I think you might find the masks are worth the investment.” But if you find something every time, most likely you’re either pointing out something everyone there knows or you’re just wrong.

    7. Yorick*

      Off topic but I have to tell someone that I hate the term “pain point.” Why can’t we just call them the employer’s needs?

        1. Specialk9*

          I think of “need” as straightforward things – staff, staplers, the everyday things of everyday work. “Pain point” in my mind is the big picture kind of thing that far fewer people consider – this industry has seen a fundamental shift with X, which creates these systemic problems. Referencing those systemic challenges, and explaining that you have a toolset for grappling with those challenges, seems like a good way to show you get what they are facing.

          1. Koko*

            Yes, to me being asked my pain points is, “What part of your job do you dutifully do because it’s the only way to accomplish your goals, but is a horrible/tedious/inefficient/error-riddled process that you wish were better?” Something that is already working, but only kinda-sorta-not well which makes it a painful part of my job.

      2. Purple snowdrop*

        Someone in a meeting earlier this week was using “stone in shoe” as a thing. I thought I misheard at first :-/

    8. Esme Squalor*

      I agree this is terrible advice, and likely to lead to well intentioned interviewees offering the kind of shallow suggestions that are filled with gaping issues due to an unfamiliarity with the company. They may even suggest things the company has considered, but dismissed for good reason. The odds that this will make the interviewee look bad are much, much higher than the odds they’ll end up impressing a potential employer.

    9. ArtK*

      “Hi! I’ve never worked for you, but I know what’s wrong with your company!” — Hmmmm… doesn’t sound to good.

      How about this: “Can you describe the kind of problem that I would be addressing in this role?” … “Ok, here’s how I might approach that problem…” That gets the same kind of information across — an idea of how you would approach the role — without being arrogant and off-putting.

    10. HR Recruiter*

      I’ve had an interviewee do something like this. It felt like a slap in the face. The gave a really basic solution to a problem. I was one of many managers/directors sitting in the room. Like really you don’t think any of us have thought of that before? Obviously we have already been that route.

      The only time this would work is if the employer was looking to add a position to solve a problem. For example years ago we were looking to add the position communications manager to develop our social media. So I would expect them to come into the interview with ideas of how to solve our problem of lack of social media.

    11. Working Rachel*

      Don’t do it. It’s super unlikely that you are going to correctly diagnose a company’s problems from the outside, especially in a way they haven’t already thought of. Much more helpful would be to give examples of how you’ve solved problems in a current or past job, or to ask intelligent questions once you get to the interview. (“I saw that you have a strong Facebook presence, but no Instagram. Is there a reason for that?”)

      My company has a lot of problems, and I want to hire people who will help fix them, but the solutions that someone would be likely to offer in a cover letter or even at the interview stage would either make me question their judgement (“You guys need a new building!” “Great, do you have 1.2 million dollars?”) or their understanding of our mission. It’s okay not to understand our very specific mission completely, but I want someone who’s interested in understanding it, not someone who’s going to start suggesting a bunch of stuff that’s not mission-appropriate straight off the bat and then possibly get offended if their suggestions aren’t taken.

  13. Not a Real Giraffe*

    Looking for opinions on interoffice IMing etiquette:

    I am of the opinion that if you do not have an existing relationship with someone, the best way to reach out to them with a work-related question is email or (if time-sensitive) a phone call, rather than an IM. An IM feels very urgent and invasive to me – mostly because the flashing notification on my screen makes it hard to ignore it, and also because it feels disrespectful of my time/priorities.

    I’d love to hear others’ perspectives on IM use at work!

    1. Snark*

      I kind of agree, but there’s no established etiquette around these things, and someone used to using IM for daily communication with colleagues might just default to that. And I don’t think they necessarily should be faulted for doing so.

    2. Murphy*

      Yeah, I agree. We don’t use IM that often, but it’s usually a “hey quick question” while in the middle of something kind of deal.

    3. HMM*

      That has never been the norm in any office I’ve worked in that used an IM service. It doesn’t really matter if you’ve met them or not, it’s there to facilitate faster conversations, or ease of getting answers to quick questions. Sometimes it easier to answer via a phone call or video conference if the answer is complex, but I don’t think it’s rude to reach out via IM .

    4. Monsters of Men*

      If you get a lot of emails, IM can just be the better way to go. When I worked at the front desk at a community centre, there were often 5 of us on a time. There were 18 community facilities with one email list. We would get about 120 emails a day regarding shift coverage/procedural changes/general questions (what would you do if…)

      An IM was the easiest way to be like “Hey, I talked to this customer yesterday about the thing he’s talking to you now..” or “go for your break” or other things.

      But if you work in a smaller office or aren’t customer focused, I think emails are the way to go. I know they’re also easier to document.

    5. EddieSherbert*

      If it’s something I can say/get across in about 2-3 sentences or less than a paragraph, I default to IM – even if I’ve basically never met the person. If it’s longer than that, I’ll shoot them an email.

      I work in a very casual office, if that matters.

    6. NW Mossy*

      One thing you can try is poking around in the settings for your IM application and seeing if you can tinker with how notifications appear. In mine, I have them set to appear in the most unobtrusive part of my screen and to flash only initially; after that, they just minimize to my task bar and wait until I address them.

      Also, feel free to tell those asking that you can’t answer them now but will later. I often get IMs when I’m in meetings (even though my status notes that), and a short “In a meeting – catch you later!” has always been received well.

    7. Sara*

      I use IM all the time, and actually prefer it to phone calls. I rarely call people -if I need something, I’ll send an email to them and an IM as a follow up later if they haven’t responded. Though I will say, I agree that its a little more urgent and attention getting, so I’m cautious with people I don’t know well. But with people that I know have a ton of emails and I just need ask a quick clarification question, I find it helps things not get backlogged.

    8. Purplesaurus*

      For someone I don’t have an existing relationship with, I prefer email > IM > phone call. I can at least ignore the message for a moment and save my work or finish my task. But using IM does not feel disrespectful/invasive to me.

    9. Naptime Enthusiast*

      In my workplace an IM from someone you don’t actually know comes after a few emails and is more of a mildly passive aggressive reminder to answer them.

    10. Admin of Sys*

      About half out office doesn’t have phones, so IM is considered the default if there’s something that’s time critical. But folks are also really good about marking themselves busy if they don’t want interrupted. That said, I probably wouldn’t chat my director w/out knowing he was okay with it – but I also wouldn’t call them. I find phone calls more invasive than IM alerts.

    11. Anony McAnonface*

      My office uses Slack for more casual contact. An email is important, Slack is just a heads up. But I think each office is different.

      1. Misquoted*

        I work remotely, so I can’t wander over to someone’s desk to ask a question. I use IM as the remote equivalent to wandering over. I try to start with “Hello! Do you have a minute or two?” just as I would if I’d wandered over to their desk. It’s a bit more invasive, as I can’t see if they are on the phone or talking to another person or eating their breakfast/lunch, but if they don’t answer after a while, I just email them rather than sending another IM.

    12. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Heh — it’s interesting how differently people experience different forms of communications technology. For me, a phone call is far more invasive than an IM.

      I tend to think of IMs as being useful for quick questions, checking to see if someone is available for a longer conversation, giving someone a heads up that more detailed information is coming by email and that they should look for it quickly, or casual relationship building.

      1. Koko*

        Yeah, these are my channel-choosing criteria as well:

        – IM/Slack is either for something quick and uncomplicated, or to call attention to an email that is running out of time to get a response and I’m concerned they may not have seen it.
        – Email for complex topics that need documentation but most decisions have already been made so you won’t need a ton of back-and-forth.
        – Phone or in-person meetings for projects where a lot of decisions are yet to be made and a conversation is needed.

        In any case I’ll choose the channel I use based on the above without regard for how well I know the person or how closely I work with them.

      2. EH*

        Same! I currently work for a tech company that doesn’t even have phones in the cubes, but my last few in-office gigs where I did have phones, we never used them. Email for long stuff, IM for quick stuff (and for people who don’t answer their email). And IMs almost always start with something like “ping?” or “do you have a sec?”

        My current manager really likes talking over Skype (so, like a phone call), but she always pings first on IM to ask if I can take a call. (I am not a fan, though. IM/email all the way!) An IM can be left unanswered for a sec while I finish something, but a phone call says STOP EVERYTHING AND ANSWER ME! Which: stressful.

    13. Claire*

      In my experience, some people really love to use and some people don’t. If you really don’t like it, you can always respond via call and mention that you prefer not to use the IM system. Although I would advise saying that it’s because you find the notifications distracting, not that it’s disrespectful; that’ll put them on the defense, and it’s kind of illogical – a ringing phone can also feel urgent and invasive.

    14. oranges & lemons*

      My personal hierarchy of communication invasiveness is email < IM < phone call < stopping by their desk < emailing their manager (if it is impossible to get hold of them otherwise). If I don't know the person well, I usually start at the bottom and escalate if I have to.

    15. LKW*

      Depends on the person, their level of seniority and their role in the organization. If they’re attached to my project I might reach out by IM first. If they are significantly more senior I might try email than a random “Hi – Wakeen said you might have answers to my questions which are….”

      I also look to see what their status is (free, in a meeting, etc. as a guide). If they’re always in meetings, I may start with email then bug them over IM because they’re not responding.

    16. Adaline B.*

      To me, phone calls are more urgent. We use IMs occasionally but I don’t think everyone’s adapted to Hangouts vs. Communicator because our IT has the default to not keep history, so it’s theoretically possible to IM someone as them never see it. -.-

    17. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It has been so interesting to read these responses! I find phone calls easier to ignore somehow. I have no problem hitting the decline button and letting it go to voicemail until I’m ready to deal with it, but something about the IM lurking on my screen taps into a level of distraction I cannot ignore.

      1. Koko*

        I normally don’t answer my phone. 99% of the calls I get are cold sales calls, I work on a digital team so everyone I work with uses email and IM to communicate, I don’t have a public-facing phone number, and my hearing on the phone is not great so I spend a lot of time asking people to repeat themselves and feeling embarrassed/annoying for doing so.

        But if it’s coming from an internal extension I feel obligated to answer because I assume it must be super-urgent if someone is calling. An IM stays on my screen until I answer it, but a phone call is this super ephemeral thing that is happening right now and goes away if I don’t pick up, so I assume when someone calls me it’s because they need to talk to me right now.

        (It appears I currently have 27 voicemails. I will never listen to them.)

    18. Susan K*

      Just my personal opinion, but I disagree. I find IM much less intrusive than a phone call, and as long as it’s something relatively quick/simple, I don’t mind using IM instead of e-mail. The only problem with IM is that my company doesn’t allow saving IM conversations (I could copy and paste it into something else if I wanted, but I can’t save the IM conversation itself), so I prefer e-mail if it’s something I might need to refer to later. If I really didn’t want people to IM me, I could just set my status to away/busy/invisible (although I’ve never had occasion to do that).

    19. clow*

      Sending IM’s in general is pretty normal for my office. I’ve never personally found it invasive when people IM me, usually people will apologize if the IM has been sitting there for a while.

    20. Bostonian*

      How invasive I rate interactions:
      1) in-person
      2) phone
      3) IM
      4) email

      Though the flashing IM is annoying, you could ignore it for a few minutes if you were busy. Everything above that on the list requires an immediate response.

      I agree that an email is the first line when contacting someone you don’t have an exiting relationship with.

    21. Emily*

      I use IM if it is something that could potentially turn into a conversation, and I use email if it is something that I feel they might want to refer to later.

      I often IM even if I know they aren’t even there, because I know they will come back later, so I don’t know about “IMs are urgent.” I IM lots of non-urgent stuff. I assume that if it isn’t a good time to respond to me, they will wait until later. Sometimes I even say, “Hey, this isn’t urgent, but I just wanted to tell you…..”

      I like getting IMs for stuff like that because then I don’t have to delete the emails.

      Honestly, in my office, if I didn’t know someone (but could find them on Slack), that means I probably SHOULD know them, and I’d just find them and introduce myself, but I think that might be office-culture specific.

  14. Junior Dev*

    So last week I had lunch with someone I know from the code school I attended in 2015. We talked about software and my experiences working in the industry and what it was like to work for his company. He ended up being really impressed by me, did an impromptu technical interview where he asked me how to do things on the command line in a test server, and told me to send him an email.

    Today I am having lunch with a hiring manager in a different department at his company. It seems like sort of an informal interview situation–I never officially applied to a job through their site and this guy I’m having lunch with tomorrow told me I should follow so officially but “that’s not necessary for us to get coffee.” Any advice on how to handle this situation? I’m going to treat it as much as possible like I’m interviewing for the specific job in his department I want, but it also seems quite a bit more informal than your average job interview situation. (I’m probably going to wear nice jeans and a blouse–slacks would be too dressy from what I know about this scene.)

    This is for a tech company on the West Coast for what it’s worth.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I would just roll with it. Even if the company itself doesn’t hire you, it sounds as if they like you and may be able to connect you with others who may be a good fit for you.

    2. Amy*

      I’d try to fill out their online application, just because that makes things easier on their hiring end. Definitely go with your gut on attire, tech firms tend to be more casual. Treat it as a formal interview, you don’t want to come off as a teacher’s pet type scenario where you assume you’ve got the job, even though it kinda sounds like you do? Sounds like this guy wants you hired and this might just be a formality with the hiring manager depending on how much sway the guy has, or if he’s lower in the chain of command it may have been just a referral.

      Good luck tomorrow!

      1. ChemMoose*

        I’d actually pass on doing this quite yet. I didn’t fill out the application until I had accepted an offer (after 3 interviews, etc.). Also, it usually keeps you from having to fill in ALL the information because at that point, they don’t want your history etc.

    3. Emma*

      My husband got a job by going to get lunch with some people from his now-company. It sounds like you’re handling it well– meet with him, with the realization that he’ll be evaluating you. You can fill out any necessary job applications later. I don’t think my husband had to. I think as they moved on in the process they asked him for his resume, maybe? But the hiring was mostly accomplished through informal conversation.

    4. Junior Dev*

      We had lunch, I thought it went well. It sounds like they are not immediately hiring for someone at my experience level but they might need to in a few months. He asked if I wanted to have an interview (!!!) even though it might not lead to an offer right away. So I’m going to apply through their site.

      It also sounds like there’s a different hiring manager there who wants to talk to me–it’s for a position that I have less experience in, but I have a sense of what they’re looking for and can do some research.

  15. Nina*

    Question: how far back does your resume go, and how many years have you been working?

    I’m thinking of taking some items off my resume – mostly short-term jobs I’d had before getting into my first proper ‘career’ job, but that would trim my work history from 10 years to 7. Is it better to have a longer work history or a shorter but more current-career-relevant history?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I have my resume divided into two sections: “Relevant Experience” where I list my “career” positions that showcase my increasing levels of responsibility and expertise in my particular area, and then “Other Experience” where I just list out the companies/titles/dates to explain any gaps in my work history.

      Keep in mind though that when most job postings list their work history requirements, they are typically referring to relevant work history. So even if you’ve been in the job force for 10 years, but you only have 5 years of relevant work, that’s likely to be what they care about.

      1. JulieBulie*

        This is exactly how I’ve done it.

        And honestly, 7 years is pretty good, and if the other three years are not relevant to your career, they don’t need to be seen at all. I keep my “Other Experience” section to show my versatility/range of industry experience, but I don’t know that it really adds much. If I didn’t have room for it on the page, I’d delete it without a thought.

      2. EmilyG*

        I have this too. “[Profession] Experience” and “Other Experience.” The last time I job searched was (eek) 15.5 years after graduating college, so the “Other Experience” just listed my self-explanatory job titles and no details to explain what I did between college and grad school (8 years, so I didn’t think I could just leave it out altogether). This works partly because there’s a pretty clear before/after grad school gap in my job history, so you wouldn’t have to page back and forth a lot to figure out what I was doing when.

        I just turned (more eek) 40, so next time I job search, I’d definitely ax that entire section and just have an “Experience” section starting with my first post-grad-school job.

    2. Elfie*

      Nina – I’m in the UK, so norms might be different, but FWIW, my CV goes all the way back to when I started work in 1999. However, my earlier jobs I only have one or two sentences about, whereas my more recent and relevant jobs I go into more detail. My non-professional stuff (that I did in high school and university) I leave off completely, it’s not relevant.

      1. Akcipitrokulo*

        Also UK… I have 11 years in current field, so only list those usually under “recent work history”.

        Also most recent has most detail… The entry level ones have a couple of lines.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I go all the way back to my first full-time job (not directly after grad school but very shortly afterwards), because it helps to provide some context for employers, and I haven’t job-hopped all that much, so it’s not like my résumé is 3-4 pages for including everything.

      I don’t think there’s a blanket “You should do it this way” approach. In fact, if you have the mental energy for it, you may want to keep a master résumé that has all your experience, and then make a copy of it for each job you apply to and trim down items based on how it relates to the place you’re applying to.

    4. EddieSherbert*

      I think you can totally trim your resume down the way you’re thinking without worrying too much – it sounds like you just want to cut out the “oldest stuff” (which happens to be less relevant).

      If there aren’t gaps in employment, I don’t believe they’ll think anything of it.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        Related, I only have like 10 years of history to include and I haven’t moved around a tone – so I lay my resume out with “work experience” for related stuff and then “volunteer experience” because I volunteer in related fields.

        I.E. I’m in marketing, and I write the quarterly newsletter for a local non-profit and design their promo materials for events.

    5. Sara*

      Mine goes back ten years, but less detail on the older jobs. But I taught overseas for a year and I swear it gets me interviews (people love to ask about it), so I keep it on there and I have to keep the jobs that came after it :)

      1. Koko*

        Agree with this approach – I care most about recent history, but if there’s something from way back that is especially relevant to the position, it’s worth including so I know you’re “familiar with llama breeding but may be a bit rusty,” which is not as good as “Master Breeder” but will set you apart from “never seen a llama in person” candidates.

      2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        I worked at the UN for a year in 2008-2009, and I’m not looking forward to it being time for that to drop off my resume. People always have questions about it!

    6. AdAgencyChick*

      Mine goes back the 14 years I’ve been in my current industry; I started working 3 years before that.

      Any jobs from more than 8 years back get VERY brief mentions, though.

    7. Koko*

      When I screen resumes there are primarily two things I’m looking for in work history:

      1) How long have you worked in this field and in what sort of roles?
      2) Do you have a stable work history, and if not, is it explained here or in cover letter?

      If you take off your out-of-field jobs but all your career jobs were back-to-back so you have 7 years of stable work history in our field, that’s pretty much all I need to know. I’m not really interested in work you did that many years ago that’s not related to the position we’re hiring for and I don’t really make any particular assumptions about what you were doing before the first job on your resume when it’s that far back – maybe you changed careers, maybe you were fresh out of college, maybe you took some time off – but regardless of the explanation you have the same 7-year track record in your current field, so it’s all the same to me.

      If taking out the non-career jobs leaves you with holes in your history, then I’d do what NARG suggests and put the other jobs in an “Other Experience” section that comes last and just has dates and titles.

  16. What Would You Do?*

    I posted a couple of weeks ago to get advice about leaving my current job at a bad time for a job that, while not a perfect fit, is a good next step for me. I want to thank you all for the advice and thought I’d give a quick update that I accepted the job offer and gave my notice this morning. It was very difficult, and I still feel guilty, as we are only 5 weeks out form our big event and someone else gave notice yesterday and her last day is the same as mine. So now they’re losing two employees (out of 7) right before our event. My boss took it as well as could be expected, but I still feel incredibly guilty. Hopefully it gradually passes and goes away once my two weeks are up. I couldn’t have done it without your advice and Alison’s advice from the archives! Now I just have to get through the next couple of weeks- I expect I’ll be pulling some overtime…

    1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

      Please don’t feel guilty. You have to do whats right for you. I wish you much success with your new position. Please keep us posted on how its going.

  17. Guy Incognito*

    I posted a few weeks ago about the company I work for no longer giving staff free Merkats

    Well we’ve just launched a Beauty and the Beast promotion and I came in to work this morning and found this on my desk:

    https://imgur.com/a/MLGK1

    In other news I was in a different part of the building I haven’t been to before and saw these:

    https://imgur.com/a/gdsHQ

    They’re about 4ft / 120cm tall and really cool, (Its possible I’m planning a kidnapping as an office prank)

    3. oviraptor*

      My good friend and her kids and hubby are huge Disney fans! In college she worked at WDW and her second, part time fun jub is at a Disney Store. They have annual passes to WDW and have run in many, many Disney Runs at the Parks. Not sure if they are half or whole marathons (or something else). They have lots of medallions for completing the races. Oh! And for some they even dress up!

  18. Amadeo*

    I did this last Friday and decided to save it since it was so late in the day and work related. I decided I need to try something new and started paperwork for a little crafting business (supported by my FT job, oh boy). I have to admit, I am more anxious about it than excited, but I think worrying about stuff is in my genes. Anybody else do their own thing and have tips?

    1. oviraptor*

      No experience with running a crafting business, although in school I worked in a mom & pop craft store. What are you thinking of doing?

    2. Specialk9*

      My biggest recommendation is to keep your books religiously and online.

      Keep a Google doc (or such) with all your expenses, and all the purchases. I had a spreadsheet (transferred from a book I took to craft shows) of what I sold when, and taxes. (You can choose to go with a whole number and then pay taxes from there, but customers don’t usually blink at tax tacked on.)

      I filed taxes religiously, deducted part of my spare bedroom where I had a workbench set up (and had a picture of it in case of audit), and kept everything.

    4. Hope it's not too late for you to see this.*

      A friend of mine is a kind of expert in everything one needs to know about running a crafting business – she founded a kind of professional organizations for people in the crafting business call the Craft Industry Alliance. You might check it out. She thinks really hard about all the different aspects of the craft business from the individual crafter end of it.

  19. Katherine*

    At what point do you stop your job search?

    I started job-hunting back in August, and kept at it (intermittently) when I got interviewed and while reference checks were being made. Now I’ve just started my new job…should I stop? Or should I keep going until I’ve passed my probation?

    1. Generic Administrator*

      I think that it might be worth keeping an eye out in case things don’t work out during your probation for whatever reason.

    2. ThatGirl*

      I started a new job in July and generally stopped looking then – unless you’re not sure about staying in your new job, I think you can at least cut way back. I guess the question is, unless you’re unsure about the fit, what’s the benefit to continuing to look? With limited exception (truly bad fit, mostly) there’s not much benefit to job-hopping so quickly; it’s usually recommended that you stick it out at a new job for a year or two at least.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s not typical to continue looking once you’ve accepted a job, let alone once you’ve started one. Unless you have some reason to think you’re going to leave that job soon, I would stop. (If I found out a newly hired employee was still interviewing, I would be very concerned.)

      2. Shadow*

        Except when you think probation it sort of makes sense to keep your options open doesn’t it?……at least until you’re reasonably sure it’s going to work out for both of you. Because isn’t that the point of probation-a sort of trial basis

        1. Apollo Warbucks*

          I’ve never job search when I’ve been on probation and I don’t know anybody else has either.

        2. JamieS*

          Yeah probation is a time for both employee and employer to evaluate if it’s a good fit but I don’t think that means continuing to job search unless the employee determines it’s not working out.

          That is the job search should be over unless there’s an actual reason to search such as deciding this isn’t the right job or realizing termination is imminent.

        3. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Probationary periods, at least in the U.S., aren’t really a trial basis in that sense. They just mean that if the employer decides it’s not working out, they’re not binding themselves to using the whole progressive discipline policy they have in place for people who have been there longer.

    5. Lucky*

      I’ve kept my Indeed and Linked in job-search emails going since I started current job, just to see what’s out there. I don’t always read them – really depends on how BEC I am with my problem coworker on that particular day.

  20. ThatGirl*

    Here’s my annoyance/problem for the week.

    I started a new job in July and used LinkedIn fairly extensively along with other online tools, and posted publicly there when I started. Now people seem to be using my new job as an excuse to not just network (which I would be fine with) but weasel their way into doing business with my new company. I’ve gotten so many emails, straight to my personal work inbox, about marketing companies, social media related services, blah blah blah, plus staffing agencies who think I can now hire one of their candidates. And a lot of times they don’t stop at one; I’ve gotten several triple-replies that are just shy of an a-hole on Tinder who won’t take no for an answer. (“Are these not getting through? Why aren’t you replying?!”)

    I am not in marketing, I am not in a hiring position, I have no interest in passing random companies I have no connection to along to the “right person,” I am still pretty new here, I don’t know these people who are emailing me out of the blue, and it’s all just very irritating.

    How would YOU handle it?

    1. RabbitRabbit*

      I’d say ignore it and treat it like spam, basically. You have no obligation to spend your work time responding to unsolicited requests with someone you have no working relationship with.

    2. Mockingjay*

      Reply once: “Please remove me from your mailing list.”
      Then right-click their email address and select Block Sender/Junk Mail.

      You’re allowed to set communication boundaries so you can concentrate on actual work.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I’ve been ignoring any first or second-round requests, for the record. I have responded twice to two third-round guys in a fit of oh my god can’t you take silence for an answer. (I didn’t say that, but I thought it.) But yes, thank you for validating my irritation. :)

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Ugh, this is totally A Thing. “Did you receive my earlier email? When would be a good time to connect?” Never, you persistent clods!

      Ignore. Put filters on your inbox. Any sort of response will only feed the beast.

      1. ThatGirl*

        I’m so glad it’s not just me. As I said above, I have responded twice in a fit of pique (politely, but firmly) and gotten no more responses, but from here on out, straight to the trash!

      2. ArtK*

        I get this frequently. E-mail from someone’s assistant, which I ignore. A second e-mail from the salesperson, which also gets ignored. Finally a call from the salesman which gets some version of “I didn’t reply the first two times — please learn to take a hint,” expressed in varying language depending on my mood.

        The “would Tuesday at 9:00AM be ok for a call?” thing *reallly* cheeses me off — I haven’t even said I’m interested and you want a call? Sorry buddy, no.

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          Yeah, I feel like there’s some salesperson school that tells people to act like you’ve already gotten agreement to HAVE a phone call, it’s just a question of when.

          The problem is that if this tactic has even a 1% success rate, people will continue to do it. With email marketing, just getting 5% of recipients to open your email is often considered a high success rate.

          (ThatGirl and others, keep that in mind — despite how their emails are worded, they EXPECT that 90% or more of people they email are not going to respond. So you don’t need to feel the least bit guilty about being in the 90%!)

          1. KK*

            Actually I think they really do teach people that, unfortunately.

            I once worked somewhere where I had to cold call 400+ people and obtained 4 appointments = big success for my bosses.

            I hated it so much and myself for doing it…

    4. ArtK*

      I ignore all of the business solicitations. If someone tries to connect and they look like they’re offering a service that I don’t need, I just ignore them. For instance, I’ve had several connection attempts from people who manage offshore development services. I don’t use those services, for a lot of reasons, so I have no reason to connect in the first place. If someone I’m already connected to tries to sell me, I’ll give them a “thanks but no thanks.” These are the equivalent of cold calls and I don’t take those either. If I need a service, I’ll go looking for one.

  21. DaniCalifornia*

    Would you tell your boss why you are leaving your job if you’re extremely unhappy? Short story: our workplace went from a small happy family to a toxic place. There’s something going on with our owner (never here, won’t communicate, bad moods they take out on us, unfair layoffs.) I have a coworker, Morgan, from hell who won’t do work. Morgan was hired by my supervisor Taylor (Morgan’s parent) and neither Taylor nor the owner will address the issues that Morgan has. Whenever I find a new job I plan to give 2 weeks notice, even if its in the busy season. I used to think I’d be here until I finish school and switch careers. This used to be a tight knit group but the last year has been unbearable. It’s just that bad that I can’t stay here 1 minute longer than I have to. I know the owner will be surprised if I left, especially since my awesome coworker Alex is leaving in a month.

    So, would you just say the standard “Oh this job fell into my lap and I couldn’t pass it up!” (which isn’t true because I’m probably going for a lateral move in administration.) or “Honestly, this has been a bad work environment and I don’t want to be here anymore.” If I tell the owner the truth, I don’t even know how to phrase it professionally/nicely. He could double my salary and I wouldn’t stay here, that’s how bad it’s gotten.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d go for the former over the latter. If it’s that toxic, they aren’t going to be open to legitimate constructive criticism.

    2. Southernbelle*

      Your boss’s (the owner’s) behavior is already over the line. Either they know and don’t care, or they don’t know, and are they going to listen to you? They know Morgan has problems, and won’t fix it. I’d think hard about what you hope to gain by venting. You would certainly feel better, but you’re unlikely to effect change. If you want to burn the bridge behind you, go ahead! But if you ever need them again -for a reference, to verify employment, anything – you’ll be setting that on fire. Personally, I’d pass on the venting-to-ex-boss and vent elsewhere. (This sounds SUPER frustrating and I get it! I would also want to unload my feelings… but I don’t think it’s the best idea.)

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        This is good advice. I didn’t want to vent but I didn’t know if there was a one liner I could say. I just know that the owner would ask ‘Where are you going and why?’ I feel like if I give the first answer it’ll be easy to see how fake it is. I’m an admin, going to another same admin job isn’t really an opportunity I couldn’t pass up so I was unsure of that language to even use with. When I thought I was staying until I finished school, it would be easy to say “Well I graduated and am leaving because I’m switching careers.”

        I think either way I leave I will be burning bridges. The owner isn’t keen on people he doesn’t believe are loyal. And he doesn’t give references either way. I have coworkers and professionals I work with who will give me references though.

        1. Southernbelle*

          Well, I’d make my one-liner a polite evasion then. ;) “I’m looking for new opportunities in Chocolate Rice Sculpture.” “I was ready for a change.” Or, if you don’t even need them to verify employment (in which case!! Save your first and last pay stubs forever and be sure to explain in advance before your previous employers get called) “I found it so difficult to work with Morgan that I preferred to move on. I wish you all the best!”

    3. JulieBulie*

      If you had an HR department you could explain during the exit interview, but since that seems not to be the case, it’s best just to say something polite. Whatever is going on with the owner, it sounds as though the concerns of the worker bees are not a big priority, so there’s nothing to be gained by bringing it up.

    4. LKW*

      If you want to burn the bridge, go for it but know that’s what you’re doing.

      You could potentially say that the environment has changed and you don’t feel like it’s a good fit for you anymore. But I wouldn’t go farther than that. It is unlikely that anything you say will have a lasting impact on the office culture.

    5. ArtK*

      It’s always worthwhile asking yourself “what do I want to get out of this situation?” Would telling the boss off (even politely) make a difference in your life? In the life of anyone still working there? Probably not. I’d let it go and give some generic response.

    6. Astor*

      In case either of these help:
      * Given that there have been layoffs, I’d probably say something like “I’ve loved working here for x, y, and z reasons, but it felt like it was time for me to move on”.
      * If I felt like giving more information, maybe something like “in the last year, the atmosphere and communication has really changed, and it felt like it was time for me to move on.”

  22. Patricia*

    Do you list your entire employment history on LinkedIn?

    I know the advice here is generally that you don’t need to put every single job you’ve ever had (better not to in fact) on a resume, but since online profiles don’t have a ‘page limit’ as such, is it still worth trimming down, or is it not really worth the bother?

    1. Snark*

      Not worth the bother. I list the positions relevant to my current career track which I’ve held since grad school. Beyond that, they’re mostly irrelevant.

    2. JulieBulie*

      I’ve listed every “professional” job I’ve ever had. Not the root beer stand, cafeteria, Woolworth’s, etc. jobs.

    3. Beatrice*

      There’s no ‘page limit’, but a person reading it does have an attention limit, so it makes sense to pare it down to what is actually relevant to your career path. I still list all the jobs related to my current field, but the early-career ones that are a far cry from what I’m doing now just have a brief line or two on accomplishments. I removed a job I had right after college that is completely unrelated to everything else. You can’t necessarily tailor it to specific jobs the way you can a resume, though, so you’ll probably have more bullet points under your most relevant jobs.

    4. Specialk9*

      I do. I’ve had several mini-careers and cool international experiences along the way, and sometimes that’s the thing that gets a hiring manager interested. It’s all in there.

    5. Phoenix Programmer*

      My only caption on the not putting most everything is that there are definitely rigid employers out there who calculate salary as a function of years.

  23. Murphy*

    tl;dr My boss doesn’t like to tell people no, even when the answer should be no.

    I’m non-faculty staff at a university, but the “people” in question here are faculty. Without going into specifics, my job is very deadline based. When people want something from our office, or want to participate in something, I need it a) by the deadline and b) to be complete. We had a submission due yesterday and several people sent additional attachments after the deadline that my boss forwarded me to add. So I had to convert files to PDF, combine PDFs, and reupload their submission. I don’t think this should be my job, and I think if someone doesn’t have all of their materials before the deadline, then we shouldn’t enable them. We rejected one submission because it blatantly ignored one of the requirements, and now the professor is complaining because he put a lot of work into his submission, and he didn’t read the requirements, and he deserves to be able to edit and resubmit it. No, he really doesn’t. If he can’t read the requirements (which were quite clear), then I don’t think he should get to resubmit it, but my boss is letting him. It’s my boss’s call, and I will do what he says, but can I push him to tell people no sometimes? And yes, deadlines are a hill I am willing to die on, given the nature of my job.

    He once told me that I was “treating faculty like children” when someone was late with a thing that I was expecting and I send them an email along the lines of”Hey, your X is late, please send it to by noon, or we will have to move on without you.” But he’s doing the same exact thing by allowing all of these exceptions to the deadline.

    1. fposte*

      The thing is, at most universities, the job of the staff is to support, directly or indirectly, the work of the faculty. Therefore what you’re describing being asked to do seems within the realm of acceptable to me. Where it becomes unacceptable is if it loses something on the other end, like if it means you miss a final deadline for getting copy to the printer for a publication and then fall way behind your target release date. But if it’s just that there’s a lot of handholding and the deadlines aren’t always honored, that to me is pretty much par for the academic course.

      That doesn’t mean I necessarily agree with how your boss is handling things. “Treating faculty like children” seems a weird summary and isn’t usefully actionable feedback; if he meant “We don’t move on without faculty and shouldn’t suggest we do” he should have said that. But the overall deadlines/coddling thing seems within parameters to me.

      1. Murphy*

        Thanks. I wasn’t clear in the example where I quoted my boss. He was saying in that case that I should have just moved on without them. (The real problem in that kind of situation is that people drop out without telling me, which is definitely unavoidable.) Whereas now, I think he’s babying them.

        I agree that we’re here to support the faculty, and I should probably be a little less rigid than I am. I’m working on it! But I do feel like if they’re trying to get something from us (e.g. money) then it’s their responsibility to get us the needed materials completely and on time. The deadline becomes meaningless if we let people just ignore it.

        1. fposte*

          The deadline isn’t meaningless; it just doesn’t meet the technical definition of “deadline.” It’s not unreasonable of you to try to make it mean that, but it will end in tears and despair for you, so I’d encourage you not to. Deadlines in academia are the sign that the border collie will leap into action, not that the gate will be closed. The deadline means that some sheep will move smartly through the gate of their own accord, so it absolutely had a purpose there; it will never mean that there are no stragglers who need firm herding.

    2. Simone R*

      In my experience, academia as a whole is pretty lax with deadlines. There are some grant deadlines that really matter, but other than that there are plenty that no one really cares about. I’m sorry to say you may be fighting a losing battle trying to enforce these deadlines if similar ones aren’t strict in other areas.

    3. AdAgencyChick*

      Sounds a bit like advertising. You tell the clients “we need your comments by X” and they routinely blow past those dates. But…they’re the clients, and they pay our salaries, so whenever possible we have to try to accommodate them. Just like, as fposte says above, your job as non-faculty is to support the faculty, so sometimes you have to take crap from them. Their primary job function is not to meet your deadlines; it’s to teach and do research (just like my clients have many more aspects to their jobs than just giving us feedback on the projects we work on). You are not likely to have a ton of success trying to train them to do things your way.

      What you can do to help yourself is to go to your boss and lay out the issues you’re having and figure out how to resolve them in the way that involves the least tearing out of your hair. (And it sounds like based on your response below that he already does have a preferred solution for at least one of your issues, which is to move on without someone who misses a deadline, rather than reminding them.) “Boss, I’ve been getting a lot of submissions lately that don’t conform to our guidelines. What should I do when that happens?” There are probably lots of other answers besides “reject their submission,” but you won’t know until you brainstorm with your boss about it (or just hear what your boss prefers that you do). Of course, if the answer requires that you put in overtime cleaning up the mess, you can push back on that (“I won’t be able to do that unless I can take something else off my plate” is a good place to start).

      1. Moll Cutpurse*

        In terms of this (as someone who is also support staff in a University where we deal with faculty submission of materials on deadlines) we have had a multi-year challenge of enforcing deadlines more and more. It is an INCREDIBLY slow process and there will constantly be faculty who “haven’t applied in a few years and weren’t aware of these deadlines” or tell us to our face that we are nothing more than a bureaucratic hurdle to real reasearch and scholarship… etc.
        The one thing that has helped is a slow escalation of enforcing deadlines (think annually “ratcheting up” the language we use when it comes to approving late submissions) as well as ensuring we have the support of the authorities between us and the researchers – i.e. the deans and department heads. To submit late to us requires approval from the higherups which means their faculties can track repeat offenders and there seems to be an increased level of accountability when the tsk-tsk-ing comes from the people that faculty interact with more frequently?

    4. Ghost Town*

      If there’s something on the other side of the deadline (like you need all these document for a report for the dean or a big grant app/report that your department is doing), I think you have space to push back for hard (or at least harder) deadlines (like an informal final, absolute deadline). I’ve found that faculty, in particular don’t think about the time and process behind what you are doing to complete, finalize, and review the documents, that it does take time to resize, reformat, etc and that while it may be a quick effort for this one document, it is never just one document and they add up.

      Sometimes, this lack of concept for the reality of time and work behind document finalization extends to the supervisors who just assume that since it isn’t a problem for them that it isn’t a time-sucking hole of despair for you. Some respond well when the process of what happens when someone submits incorrect and/or late documentation.

      Like a lot of things, until it negatively impact the tardy faculty members or your supervisor, there’s no impetus for either of them to change.

    5. Hermione*

      Similar to what fposte and Simone R are saying, academia on the whole tends to be really lax on deadlines except with regards to grants, accreditation, and a few registrar matters (catalog publishing dates, for example), and when it comes to internal matters (getting things to the admin, especially), many faculty don’t even bother to read instructions.

      I agree that it can be majorly frustrating, but I think you need to read between the lines a bit with what your boss is telling you. If he says to accept documents even if it means extra work for you, it means that reformatting PDFs is a part of your job. He’s making value judgments on the time/effort that you would spend fixing things vs the cost of pushing back against faculty. I think you need to reframe your thinking a bit here – verbally or not, he’s saying that exceptions and this sort of occasional formatting ARE a part of your job.

      That said, when I supported an academic department, I gave a fake deadline for nearly all internal matters, especially those for which I needed to combine for a deliverable to central admin. I acted in all ways (instructions, reminder e-mails, etc.) as though the fake deadline was real, and then when faculty asked for extensions, I let them have until the real deadline (while making it seem like it wasn’t ideal). I also made submission instructions as easy as possible – they were most used to Word docs, so forward me those via e-mail, and then I would export to PDF and combine everything at once myself. I don’t know if there was a better way to do it, but because of the fake deadlines, my frustrations went down quite a bit and my deliverables were almost always on-time.

      Good luck!

    6. Dr. Doll*

      Depending upon what your office is and the services it provides, it is *very* reasonable to ask faculty to meet the deadlines and standards for completeness that are in your policies and calendars. For example, if they want to apply for a grant and all materials must be in your office 5 business days before the grant is due, there’s a reason for that — so you CAN have a buffer time for getting signatures, materials, etc. I wish our research office would enforce their 5-day deadline, it would make our grants so much more successful than our current practice of allowing people to finish a nanosecond before the submit button needs to be clicked.

      Your job is to support the faculty the best you possibly can, and if the office’s policies and deadlines are reasonable and productive, then I think your boss needs to support YOU. Sounds like you are doing a good job of reminding, cajoling, and helping.

      I do love fposte’s analogy of the border collie. Argh, so true.

    8. AnonAcademic*

      I work in academic research and this tension plays out in every department I’ve worked in. The thing is that most faculty have little to no training or aptitude in the administrative aspects of the job (grant preparation etc.) and to add to that, every conference, funding agency, or journal we submit to has a slightly different system! Keeping track of all the rules can be maddening if not impossible while also teaching and doing research. I really rely on our grants administrator to let me know the most crucial deadlines and clarify expectations, but sometimes there are miscommunications and last minute scrambling ensues. I would say that maybe 1/3 or 1/4 of my grants involve a last minute panic because so and so filled out the old version of a form and is now on sabbatical on the moon (or whatever). I’m sorry it happens so often but for me and many others, we are barely keeping our heads above water with the demands of the job and the first thing that goes for me is attention to fine detail. It’s very frustrating and definitely something I didn’t understand when I was research staff chasing people down for signatures and not getting why they were all so scattershot.

  24. Jubilance*

    So I interviewed last week for an internal role. Interview went great (and thanks to AAM community for helping me figure out what to wear).

    Got the call a little bit ago – I did NOT get the job. They gave it to an internal contractor. When I interviewed, they made it seem like the contractors (there were 3 PT contractors) weren’t interested in becoming FT employees. Now I feel like they just interviewed me to fulfill the diversity requirement :-(

    I initially interviewed because my relationship with my manager was terrible, but it’s gotten a bit better. I don’t want to be in this role though, so it’s back to looking for a new role.

    1. Snark*

      I think that take both oversells and undersells your candidacy and it’s not going to be a productive conviction to nurture.

        1. Snark*

          Your feelings aren’t immutably graven into your psyche. You can feel this way, which is making you feel resentful and put-upon and angry. Or you can feel disappointed that it didn’t work out, but remind yourself that you’re not privy to the decision-making process. You will in all likelihood never know whether you were interviewed to satisfy a diversity requirement or whether you were just a candidate they thought was strong enough to interview but ultimately went with someone else. I personally find that that line of thinking is more productive.

          I’m not telling you how to feel about this, but one way to feel about this is a lot more constructive and optimistic than the other.

          1. ThatGirl*

            Snark, I don’t know your skin color or much of anything about you, but understand that it can be very hard for women, POC and other minorities to gauge whether they’re being discriminated against; it’s not that anyone wants to see racism or sexism or homophobia everywhere, but they ARE pervasive forces. We have no way of knowing why the decision was made, but lecturing someone else on their feelings and dismissing the possibility that she’s right is frustrating.

            1. Snark*

              I’m not dismissing the possibility that she’s right; as someone also occasionally subject to discrimination, I wouldn’t dare. But what does dwelling on that possibility get her? What headspace does it put her in? How does it affect how she feels in her current position? What keeps you moving forward with your head held high?

          2. fposte*

            I get that you mean well, Snark, but that response isn’t well tuned to the post here. (And if you’ve never read Deborah Tannen’s You Just Don’t Understand, have a look–you’ll find it really interesting.)

            1. Snark*

              I don’t mean to be aggressive, but I’m finding the responses here frustrating and baffling. What response, in a context that’s explicitly all about constructive, actionable advice, would be well tuned?

              1. fposte*

                I like constructive and actionable advice, but I don’t think that that’s entirely what we’re devoted to here; there’s room for non-actionable support as well. And that means being alert to what kinds of things people do and don’t find supportive, even if they’re different from what would be useful to you in the same situation. Since you’ve asked, I presume you don’t mind some specific parsing: “it’s not going to be a productive conviction to nurture” is a negative statement about a possibility that wasn’t even presented–a fleeting feeling is very different from nurturing a conviction, and “nurturing” suggests external application rather than a justifiable belief. And since Jubilance has been posting here for years and is a reliably thoughtful and productive person in her life and career, it seemed an animadversion that was particularly ill-matched to the person.

                I don’t want to take this too far down the rabbit hole, but I do find writing and its impact a fascinating subject so it’s hard for me to resist. But writing for clarity and writing for the impact you want aren’t necessarily the same task, and the audience matters even more for the second than for the first.

          3. Yorick*

            I agree, Snark. Unless there was something they did that made it seem like a token diversity interview, we shouldn’t assume that it was. We always think we will get the job and then get crushed, but we have to remind ourselves that they always interview multiple candidates and we don’t know about them or about the hiring manager’s ultimate needs.

            We can feel the way you feel, or we can control our feelings to some degree through healthy thought processes.

            1. Emma*

              But it’s also fair to realize that discrimination/tokenism may be at play. It’s not fair to manage Jubilance’s feelings on this. She’s obviously not giving up– in her comment, she literally said that she’s looking for a new role.

              It’s fine for her to acknowledge reality, and that it sucks. And I’m sure it’s frustrating to have random internet commenters explain how it’s probably not discrimination, when they weren’t in the interview.

                1. Emma*

                  Yorick said: “Unless there was something they did that made it seem like a token diversity interview, we shouldn’t assume that it was. “

      2. LKW*

        That blows. I’m sorry. You could be right in your assessment of the situation. You have a better idea of how your company works with regard to talking the diversity talk versus walking the diversity walk. If that’s the case, they should have been up front with everyone. It is possible that something changed between when they talked to you and when they made their decision. Still, it sucks.

    2. fposte*

      Sorry, Jubilance; that sucks, especially with the contractor thing. Will you be able to be satisfied in your current job or does this mean it might be time to start looking more widely?

      1. Jubilance*

        I’m going to continue to look for an internal role. I do not want to stay in my current role, because I don’t want to completely leave my company. I have some contacts in other areas of the company that I’m interested in.

    3. NaoNao*

      Well, try not to tell a negative story unless you know it’s true.
      The PT people could have changed their mind based on some specifics of the job (such as salary or benefits, etc), or they could have misunderstood the PT people’s preferences.
      Or tbh you could have misread the comments about the PT people.
      I *totally* get the let-down, a job I felt in my *bones* was going to happen didn’t, and I was left hurt and confused.
      Best of luck with search.

        1. Anonacrip*

          I thought how you word it was fine Snark, as a minority myself I tire of hearing others blame their own differences for things like not getting a job when it is perfectly feasible that they just weren’t suited for the position or someone else was a better candidate.

    4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Another reason you might have missed out not suggested below–they could have gotten the contractors for less money.

      That sucks you didn’t get it. Put it behind you and move on to better and greater–are you looking at maybe interviewing outside now?

    6. HR Recruiter*

      Are you able to ask for feedback of why the other person was chosen? Perhaps to get a better feel of why they interviewed you? I know how frustrating it can be to feel like you wasted your time interviewing. In college a higher up came to me with this big speech about how he wanted me to apply for a supervisor position and he’d make sure I got an interview….After my interview and hours of prepping he told me he just needed one more person to meet their quote of interviewing at least 3 people before HR would let them make a decision…But I ended up using it in my favor. I knew what questions they asked. The next time I was interviewed as “one of the ppl to meet their quota” I totally blew them away and got the job over the person they were planning on giving it to.

    7. Specialk9*

      That’s disappointing, I’m sorry to hear it.

      Agreed admit keeping looking. A frustrating relationship can ebb and flow, but it’s full frustrating. It’s worth looking for a manager who you click with and thinks you’re hot potatoes.

      (Not sure why hot potatoes just became my metaphor for assume. Let’s assume there’s butter.)

        1. Specialk9*

          Swype fail!

          That’s disappointing, I’m sorry to hear it.

          Agreed about keeping looking. A frustrating relationship can ebb and flow, but it’s still frustrating. It’s worth looking for a manager who you click with and thinks you’re hot potatoes.

          (Not sure why hot potatoes just became my metaphor for awesome. Let’s assume there’s butter on the potatoes.)

  25. Nisie*

    Question- when you undergo committee interviews and no thank you cards are exchanged, is it okay to only send thank you notes to a few people? I know who in the room of 6 were with the department I interviewed for, but there are three people I just remember first names.

    1. Elfie*

      I’m amazed that people actually send thank you cards! I have never done so, and I’ve managed to get 7 jobs in my career so far! Of course, maybe this is location or industry-specific (IT in the UK) and maybe I’ve lost out on other jobs because I haven’t done this – but I literally don’t know anyone who does, or who has ever mentioned it.

        1. Elfie*

          Phew! I was beginning to think I was really rude, and somehow didn’t know something that ‘everybody knows’! Glad to know it’s not just me!

          1. Isobel*

            No, I’d never heard of the thank you note thing till I started reading AAM. It’s not the norm in the UK.

        2. Ruth (UK)*

          Omg this finally explains my confusion! I’ve generally thought aam gives good advice across the board since I started following it around 2014 but I have always been confused by the thank you note idea as no one else I know has ever even heard of doing it! I’ve never sent one (or known anyone who has) but always wondered if I should be…

        1. Call Me Crazy*

          I always sent them, and usually get the job, tho must admit they are not high-end positions. Most of the people I interviewed with thanked me and say it’s the first one they’ve ever received.

      3. fposte*

        Either we’re talking about something I haven’t heard of in the U.S. either or things are getting a little mixed up. In my experience, thank you *cards* aren’t a thing in the U.S. either, and I thought Nisie meant “no business cards are exchanged” and just typed “thank you” instead of “business.”

        Thank-you followups do seem to be a U.S. thing, but we haven’t gotten to the point of Hallmarking them up.

          1. fposte*

            No problem! I just assumed business cards but then the thank-you card notion took on a life of its own :-).

        3. Specialk9*

          I sent thank you cards for every interview I’ve been on.
          (US) Email right away, then follow up with mailing an actual brief note. Most candidates don’t do it, so it stands out in a good way.

          For one job, I had to jump right back on a plane and didn’t want anything getting lost or forgotten, so ducked into the bathroom, wrote out some cards quickly, and dropped them off at reception. Every person mentioned it, impressed, when I started, so I think it helped me get the job.

          2. Specialk9*

            I wrote the cards on the vanity part of the sink, not in the toilet stalls. Just clarifying.

      4. Akcipitrokulo*

        Us thing… I’d never heard of it before reading aam and a lot of managers I know would have reacted with “OK… that one was a bit weird… they just sent me a thank you note!?!?”

        Whereas it’s rude in Us not to from what I gather.

  26. Anon for this*

    Niche questions for electrical engineers in utilities/facilities!

    How can an electrical engineer working on a less technical side of the high voltage utility industry prepare to transition to facilities electrical engineering (lighting, fire protection, control systems, UPS, etc.)? What technical skills and knowledge are important? What are some go-to resources I can use to educate myself in these areas? Lastly, which PE license discipline is most relevant to this? I’m eligible to take the Power exam, but not sure if it would help.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      On the facilities side, if you are looking at major employers like hospitals, universities, or other companies that have campus level footprints, they would be happy to hire you right now and train you for the transition. They want people with experience and the can invest in classes and get you the certifications to work in their environments.

      1. LCL*

        Totally right! Electric utility work is considered the golden ticket. The assumption is if you get high voltage that you understand all the rest. Look around in your city at who the big contractors are and start talking to them. While the big campuses will use in house staff for hands on maintenance, they generally contract out all of the design work. Take one of the electrical crafts people to lunch and ask them which contractors they know about and who is good.

      2. Anon for this*

        Wow, really? This is good news. Even if I have next to zero AutoCad experience and no knowledge of NEC? Not to sound dubious, just self-conscious over not having these skills despite my field. :)

  27. Mazzy*

    This sounds like a first world problem, but I am frustrated from being under-titled and not knowing what my level at my job is supposed to be because of that. It actually creates real issues, because I make my own projects (not as exciting as it sounds as they are based on ad hoc business needs), and I don’t know what level I am supposed to be making decisions at on them. Then I get a project or one arises that should be handled by a Director and I do it successfully, and no one says anything, but then they get their feathers ruffled when I don’t do other things that are at a higher level because I honestly don’t think they are part of role. Then other folks with higher-level job titles step into my area and make high level decisions, and then when I point out that they should have based the decision on more information, the response is, “you should be managing that.” Ok, so if a VP steps into my area to make a VP decision, how am I supposed to know I am above him, but only in this situation?

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Do you have a job description? I wonder if it would be helpful to revisit it with your manager to clarify expectations.

      In my organization, you can also request a classification review from HR at any time, which basically means asking that they confirm that your title band is appropriate to the work you are doing. I’m not sure what your organizational structure is, but if you have multiple VPs I suspect your organization is complex enough that it likely has some kind of job classification scheme. It might be helpful to look at the titles above and below yours in the scheme to see if that helps hone in on what level of authority you’re expected to have.

    2. Anion*

      Can I just say–and this isn’t intended as any kind of slight against you, Mazzy–I HATE this “first world problems” thing? Just because you live in a first-world country doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to have dreams, goals, or hopes, and it doesn’t mean you’re not entitled to feel disappointment, irritation, or sadness when things don’t go as you’d wished them to go. It doesn’t mean your problems don’t matter or that you’re not allowed to be confused or upset about them because you have a roof over your head. This expectation that we all remind ourselves twenty-four hours a day that it could be worse, or that we should cover ourselves in sackcloth and ashes for daring to complain about an actual issue we’re actually dealing with, is annoying, and calling something a “first world problem” is so dismissive and belittling. Like you and your feelings don’t matter because you can afford coffee and take-out. You DO matter, your problems DO matter, your feelings DO matter, and you are entitled to mention them and ask about them without someone insulting you and implying that you’re shallow for thinking about a problem that affects your everyday life instead of spending all of your time worrying about Big Problems that no one person will ever solve.

      This sounds to me like something you should ask your manager about. Like, “I’ve been hesitant to make these kinds of exec-level decisions (or handling these exec-level tasks, whichever/whatever the correct thing is) because I don’t want to overstep, but it seems there’s an expectation that I should do so. Can you clarify that for me?”

      And when it comes to higher-ups making decisions that turn out to be incorrect, I suspect what they’re looking for is you to either A) present more info when asking for the decision; or B) tell them immediately what the problem with that decision is. I mean, obviously I don’t know for sure since I don’t know your job, and I’m sure others will have more useful input on that, but that’s my guess. (It’s also possible that what they want is for you to make the problem go away, so their decision “works.”) Again, this sounds to me like the kind of thing that someone above you should be clarifying for you, though.

      I hope that’s at least somewhat helpful!

      1. Camellia*

        “first world problems”
        +100000000 This grates on my nerves too! Thanks for expressing this.

  28. Justin*

    I work in a gov’t adjacent job where, essentially, my team is tasked with professional development for gov’t employees (though we are technically employees of a public university).

    When we finish designing a new course, we have to present it to the directors of said gov’t agency for their feedback. Yesterday was the first time that a course I designed was presented to directors, and they had plenty of constructive criticism, but they really liked it.

    My wife and dad are very, uh, “only celebrate if it’s truly a momentous occasion/act like you’ve been there before.” But I wanted to share it here because, with my various impostor syndrome issues that they can’t really relate to (which not everyone can), it was an affirming moment.

    4. Susan K*

      Congratulations and good job! This might be a bigger deal than it looks, because it means that you’ve figured out something new and it will pave the way towards more success. It’s definitely worth celebrating!

    5. Been there*

      Sorry.. but screw that. Celebrate all the victories! Now that doesn’t mean sparklers and champagne for everything, but a well placed ‘woohoo look at me and what I did’ is a good thing.

    6. Specialk9*

      I’d have a long conversation about what my wife needs to do to make me feel supported. That’s not cool. “Honey, get back to me when you do something impressive” would not fly with me! Your dad, whatever, my parents are gifted at saying the exact opposite of what I want to hear, but your partner should cheer on your wins.

    7. LKW*

      Pat yourself on the back. Get yourself a little reward. Maybe one day such a success will feel like “BTDT” but for now… good job!

    8. Cassandra*

      As someone who’s done a lot of course design, I say CELEBRATE!

      I sure do. The main curriculum committee where I am is notorious for requiring several rounds of syllabus revisions. Someday I will get one through them on the first try, but that day is not this…

    9. kittymommy*

      Late to the game, but YAY!!!!!!!!!
      seriously, good for you and you should definitely celebrate and be proud.

    10. ..Kat..*

      Congratulations. I believe in celebrating all sizes of accomplishments. Sometimes, I just celebrate because it is a day of the week ending in ‘y’!

  29. Jimbo*

    Job-hunting as a parent of a small child. I am am seeking advice and tips on how to ask about policies such as flexible start/end times, expected amount of work hours per day/week, telecommuting during the interview process.

    My situation: my child goes to after care after school. After care closes at 6 PM. For most jobs I am applying for, the one-way commute is 30-45 minutes to the after care center. Therefore, I cannot accept a job that will require me to routinely stay at the office beyond 5:00-5:30 PM. Also, there are multiple days in the school calendar where the school is closed or there is early dismissal. Not to mention the usual times when children get sick and need to be picked up at short notice. I need a job to be accommodating of these things in time flexibility, telecommuting and a culture where a crazy amount of work hours is not expected.

    Should I just be upfront? Or is it wiser to be subtle, and to try and find out about these things indirectly by asking questions that allude to work culture without getting specific? Some companies explicitly say these information on their websites. Most companies do not.

    I am getting interviews and am waiting at least until the second interview before I ask about these things. My natural communication style is to be direct and upfront, especially about things which are deal-breakers for me.

    But I am getting confused and thrown off my game by advice I’ve read and heard which say it is taboo to talk directly about and ask questions on work-life balance in the job interview process and which advise people to wait until an offer is secured before asking. That seems to me too late. I don’t even know if I truly want the job unless I know they can accommodate my family schedule.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      Ack, this is a question you sent to me two days ago and which I’d started writing an answer to. I’ll delete it from my queue, but please don’t do that here (per the note at the top of the page).

      1. Jimbo*

        Yikes! Sorry! I thought that this had been passed over and OK to post on the open forum. My apologies for jumping the gun! I was anxious because I have a couple of upcoming interviews next week.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Just to be clear, it was from two days ago. It’s fine to repost something here if it’s been a couple of weeks, like it says up top. Two days, no; I will almost never answer anything that quickly. (I don’t mean to belabor this, but it means I end up doing work I then can’t use.) Anyway, hopefully people will respond here.

          2. Admin Coaching*

            I think you could still use this work — I have to assume that the vast majority of your readers don’t dig into the open threads, and this is content that could be relevant and useful to a wider audience!

            (You obviously don’t need my advice on running your blog. I just hate to see you lose this work, and I don’t think it’s necessary.)

            1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

              Uh, that was me. I tend to use the “name” field as a subject line in the open threads, but it does cause me to do things like this. Whoops.

            2. Ask a Manager* Post author

              In theory I could, but I like to use questions that haven’t already had an audience here, since I get so many more questions than I have time to answer. Due to volume, only about 10% of the questions I receive these days get answered, so I try to avoid “double-dipping.” (That said, if I’m being honest, some of it is the principle of clearly stated instructions being ignored. Which is not a very compelling reason, I realize.)

              1. Muriel Heslop*

                As a teacher, I think the reason of “ignored my instructions” is incredibly compelling. It compels more of my life than I would like.

                1. Jimbo*

                  My apologies. It was not a case of ignoring her instructions on purpose. It was a case of not hearing back after a couple of days, assuming my questions have been passed over, and high anxiety levels because I had multiple job interviews the last week and have scheduled a couple more next week. It was truly being absent minded and mentally high strung on my part. Again, my apologies to AAM.

          3. Nisie*

            I’d love to see the answer. Once I had kids, I found it was harder to be a parent than it was to work two jobs.

        2. Snark*

          From the top of this page:

          “* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.”

        3. PLT*

          Jimbo, I definitely empathize with you. Anxiety tends to warp reality and create a sense of urgency. You explained your reasons adequately and apologized. I know that when I have had many things go wrong in a span of a few weeks, I don’t really expect anything to work out; if I were in your shoes during such a time, I would not expect an advice columnist to pick my question out of the hundreds they probably receive in a day and I would start seeking answers elsewhere. This is all to say – please don’t beat yourself up about this misstep (in case you are) because you don’t deserve to be continually reprimanded like a child, even by yourself. I am glad the folks here have provided some useful responses. Good luck with navigating this issue in interviews!

          2. Mouse*

            Agreed, PLT. I was a little surprised by the response here, to be honest. Especially since as far as I’m aware, there’s no set amount of time that Alison has given for a waiting period before posting in the open thread. When the issue is relevant to your immediate future and can’t wait until the next open thread, I totally understand getting anxious and posting it here. We’re usually kinder to people dealing with anxiety-inducing situations here. Good luck, Jimbo!

            1. Ask a Manager* Post author

              Just to be clear, at the top of the page, in the intro to the post, I ask people not to post questions here that they’ve submitted recently. I’m not trying to belabor this, I promise! Just wanted to clarify that. I totally understand anxiety leading people to jump the gun though. I may have overreacted to the “I didn’t think you were going to answer it” thing, since I’ve had a bunch of people lately nudge me on their questions like two or three days after submitting them and so I’m prone to being irritated by strange timeline expectations right now.

    2. anna green*

      Ugh, I’m in the same boat and this part of it sucks. I think it will depend on how big of a dealbreaker it is and how unique of a request it is. In my current job I work from home some times because its 1+ hour commute, so that was discussed in my initial interview, because it was an absolute dealbreaker. I actually just got a job offer! And I have the same thing, where I need to leave by 5pm to pick up my kids, and I didn’t say anything until they offered me the job, because I feel like asking to leave at 5pm is not so crazy. One interview a while back I asked about work/life balance (kids being sick) specifically in the first interview, and I could tell they were put off by it, which is dumb, but there you go. For what you are asking about, I would wait. Those are pretty normal things that most parents deal with. Unless your field is one where that stuff is typically not dealt with.

      1. Jimbo*

        I am curious what the response was when you asked them after the offer. Were they put off? Were they understanding? Also, when you asked, were you direct and explicit or were you more subtle and indirect? Thanks

    3. Helpful*

      I think you can ask some slant questions in the interview about culture to get a feel for it. Since you feel very strongly about it, you may be okay with bombing the interview by being direct!

      As a side note, you may need to get a babysitter to pick up the kid and bring him/her home in the evenings, and some babysitters to cover holidays, etc., especially while building up equity at your new job.

      1. Jimbo*

        One tactic I am thinking about using is to not raise the issues at all in the face to face interviews. Wait until I have had a second interview. If I come out of the second interview feeling good, to email the HR afterwards and ask directly about policies on telecommuting, flex hours, and any literature the company may have on employee benefits. The question on expected daily/weekly work hours I can ask in a third interview (if I get that far) to the hiring manager face to face or via email if an offer were extended by that point. Any folks think this can work?

        1. Meg*

          This could work, but keep in mind that at many places (especially large companies), the answer could vary widely from department to department. Working from home is commonly accepted in my department, for example, but HR certainly doesn’t know the specifics of that. So the details might be very different than what HR gives you.

          I personally am not put off by it at all — I did a first-round interview this week in which the woman asked at the end about our philosophy and policies on work-life balance, and I was happy to answer on behalf of our department. But I’m not all hiring managers. ;) And especially if this is a dealbreaker for you, I would just recommend bringing it up.

          One thing I would recommend: in almost all scenarios in which you could be awarded telecommuting, flexible start/end times, etc., your manager would want to see a pattern of demonstrated performance first. So I would make sure that your question about life/balance conveys an understanding of that, and that you’re not demanding 100% flexibility on the first day.

          1. Jimbo*

            Thank you! I like how the person you interviewed asked in terms of the company’s philosophy and policies on work-life balance. I think I will use that. Perhaps ask it to the HR and also to ask it to the hiring manager/department head of the department I am applying to. Perhaps this can naturally segue into expectations of work hours, telecommuting, flex time in the conversation.

    4. AdAgencyChick*

      Anything you can do to find a current employee who has no interest in the hiring process and ask THEM about it is good. I realize it’s not always easy to do this (my industry is small and everyone knows each other, whereas I know lots of people in other industries regularly find jobs through blind ads) but it’s invaluable if you can make it happen.

    5. Inspector Spacetime*

      If it’s a deal breaker then you shouldn’t wait until after they’ve extended their offer. You should be up front with it. I think the second interview is a good time for it.

    6. Friday*

      This is a common but tough thing to navigate. First, what’s the standard in your industry? Is it regular 40-hr weeks or is it lots of OT? Or OT only in certain times of the year? Second, are you in this solo or do you have a partner who shares the responsibilities? My story: when my husband took a 1+ hour commute job each way early last year, I was able to take over all dropoffs and pickups because my workplace was flexible and understood. I was already a high performer who had no trouble completing work in the regular 40 hours. And I had a laptop so I could work from home those few times it was critical (and when my kid was sick or school was closed for whatever reason). When I took a new job also 1+ hour away later last year, husband did pickups and I did dropoffs, as it’s usually easier in a new job to get a set start time but not as much a set end time (at least in the beginning when you’re trying to figure out the working culture). Husband also coordinated most of our move to this area, transferring daughter to her new school close by, etc. Because he had more flexibility at his established job by that point.

      As for how to get a feel for this in the interview, ask about the workplace culture and hours (probably in the 2nd+ interview though, not necessarily the first). Especially if you’re a single parent and have no back-up to manage pick-ups. Good luck!

      1. Jimbo*

        Thanks! I work in nonprofits in the DC Metro area so the standard is usually a 40 hour workweek. There are many exceptions to that, however, and I’ve known nonprofits whose cultures are more demanding as far as weekly and daily work hours. In addition to nonprofits I am also targeting (and getting interviews) with contractors who serve the Federal government. These are completely unfamiliar territory for me and I don’t know much about work cultures in for profit Federal contractors other than what I read in Glassdoor.

        I am married and my wife and I tag team on childcare duties and picking up/dropping off. My worry is if I am not explicit about my requirements, that I run the risk of being in a position of accepting or rejecting a job that I don’t know much about aspects that can affect my family life in a major way.

        I agree on waiting until the 2nd interview at least to raise these issues. But getting stuck on how to communicate these needs — be direct and upfront or be subtle and indirect?

        1. Helpful*

          I think you can be direct but not rude or presumptuous. “Can you tell me about what a typical week looks like, in regards to hours?” Or more direct: “How family-friendly would you say your office is?”

          1. Muriel Heslop*

            I think these are great questions. I was going to suggest asking about family-friendliness and see if you can get a feel for how many employees have children, if any. My husband and I have tag-teamed over the last 7 years and I went back to teaching last year just to get back on my kids’ school calendar. Even, then it hasn’t been all smooth sailing. Good luck!

            1. Jimbo*

              Thanks both! I like the questions on asking about “family friendliness” and if any other staff have young children. These provide plenty of info if the org or company are accommodating to these needs

        2. Friday*

          I’d probably be direct – because A. it’s a dealbreaker for me if they are all kinds of busy and inflexible, and B. I’ve been fortunate in my career to be leaving good companies to work for other good companies at a higher level. I would probably have to think very differently about it if I were out of work and didn’t have as much flexibility to walk away from potential jobs.

          As a hiring manager in the past, I was never put off by it either. In fact I was proud to answer the question because my team had a very consistent 40-hr week even in the busy time and we all took pride in our efficiency and ability to get the job done in that time period.

          1. Jimbo*

            Thanks! It is good to hear directly from hiring managers who don’t consider it a negative if a person asks about work-life balance. In recent weeks when I have been interviewing I’ve read plenty of advice which pretty much says asking about work life balance is taboo and even using that phrase to an interviewer can have negative connotations. I also had a negative response in an informational networking situation where I asked someone in a field I wanted to enter about expected work hours in their job. I got chastised pretty strongly for bringing up the issue! All this affected my thinking of how I should approach these questions in my upcoming interviews.

            1. zora*

              Well, just be aware, it COULD be a negative for some hiring managers/organizations. You have to do a cost-benefit for yourself, how much of a deal breaker is this for you? If you are in a secure situation right now and you don’t desperately need these jobs, then be super upfront about it! And if you get a horror-story response where they freak out, well they just told you something about themselves and you now know for sure you don’t want to work there.

              You can reframe it in your head, that by asking directly about these things in the second interview, it’s the quickest way for you to decide if you are interested in a job at this place or not.

              1. Jimbo*

                Thanks! It is a big risk to be upfront but I am realizing I may not have a choice. My family circumstances are what they are and no matter what, I can’t fit myself into a job or organization that is unable to be flexible about these things. Much better on both sides to identify earlier if it is a mutual fit rather than go through interviews all the way to an offer and find out only at that stage that it isn’t going to work out. Or worse, accepting an offer and realizing in my first week in a new job that it is not workable at all, quitting this new position and burning that bridge, and having to start the job hunt all over again.

                1. zora*

                  Totally. It’s not that it’s more of a risk, but it might take you longer to find the place that will fit with your life, you might have to look at some more places before you find it. But yes, this is the most important thing to you right now, and it’s better to get that sorted out earlier in the process than waste everyone’s time! Don’t feel guilty about prioritizing this for you in your job search!! I think you will find something, being aware of people’s family obligations is becoming more and more common these days. Good Luck!

    7. Specialk9*

      Yes!! This is a big concern for me too! I posted previously about being worried about layoffs, and losing flexibility is a big issue. I worry about this exact issue too, thanks for asking it.

  30. Database Geek*

    So I’m currently job searching – have had a few interviews which were good. Had some ones that were frustrating but perhaps not actually as bad as some of the ones in that “bad interviewers” post I found on this site! Just general poor communication and the like. I’m actually waiting to hear back from the most recent one but I’m not really expecting good news. I feel like I was cheated on that one because there were supposed to be two people doing the interview but one was busy – I am not sure how annoyed I should be with that.

    1. NaoNao*

      Well, I wouldn’t take it personally.
      Sometimes it’s actually harder to connect with two people, so it may not be a bad thing.
      When it comes to interviews, companies very, very rarely think about your needs or your situation. If someone got pulled into a last minute on-fire project or what have you, the interview will be right off their radar.
      I *might* follow up and say “I really enjoyed meeting you! Would you like to schedule an additional interview with Mr. So and So, since he wasn’t able to attend on Wednesday?” that’s only if you feel like you would have knocked it out of the park with the missing party, and the interview otherwise went well.

      1. Database Geek*

        Thank you – I’m trying not to take it personally but it’s hard! On the other hand I’m learning how many annoying things people can do at interviews! I like your idea about following up! But I’ve already sent a “thank you for the interview” note so maybe it’s best to keep it in mind if something similar happens again and I can modify the thank you note.

    2. Specialk9*

      That’s pretty common – hiring managers want input from others, but it’s pulling people from daily tasks, and sometimes there are fires to put out. I wouldn’t take this one personally, even though it feels like it’s kinda personal.

    1. fposte*

      She dialed back her presence and went through some life stuff; she has popped in to tell us that she’s fine occasionally, but hasn’t returned to full participation. I miss her too.

      1. Myrin*

        I do, too. :(
        On that note, has anyone heard of LBK lately? I know that he was crazy busy for a time last year or so but then came back to regularly commenting and now I only see him around once in a while. It’s weird how AAM feels like a bar sometimes.

        1. fposte*

          He posted in the earlier thread this morning–I noticed he’d been around less, too.

          On a not completely unrelated note, the new Firefox will not freaking autofill my forms no matter what I do to the privacy settings, so if I end up posting without my avatar that’s why.

        2. LBK*

          I’m here! In the midst of another round of the crazy project that was occupying my time last year plus an additional huge project on top of that, and to cap it off they upped our internet filters at work so it’s tougher for me to comment now. But I am around, just not getting as far into the comments as I used to.

          1. Myrin*

            Oh yay! And of course, right after I posted the above comment, I saw yours on today’s latest post – funny how that works sometimes and glad to hear you’re okay! Best wishes for your big projects!

  32. Roscoe*

    This question is specifically for people in sales or working on base + commission. When you are looking at a new jobs, and discussing compensation, what is the best way to do that? I know that they can’t guarantee you a certain salary your first year, outside of your base. So do you say, “I was making X last year and I’d like to make around there my first year”? Or is it more about what your base is going to be? Any tips would be appreciated.

    1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

      You could also ask what a new person typically makes in a year and also ask what a senior person typically makes in a year. That’s not an unfair question. I asked that when interviewing for my current job. So far Im surpassing what they told I’d make.

  33. TGIF*

    I’m at my job for 3 months now and I’ve been called into meetings for either missing folders/folders being
    moved around on the shared drive, another time for missing data in Excel. The head boss likes to point
    fingers and will ask you, “Did you do this?” Then he named other people who might do it and no one did.
    It turns out that it was someone from his team (!) moving the files. I just hate the fact that they zeroed in
    on me and my department. My boss says he’s also sick of it, but it still is upsetting.

  34. Monsters of Men*

    I am taking over the position for someone who is going back to her home country for a visit. The visit is meant to last six weeks, and she has only been with the company for two months. I have been training under her for two weeks now, her last day is next Tuesday.

    Well – it turns out they’re firing her. They haven’t told her until Tuesday, because they don’t want her to withhold information from me, but the boss is annoyed she is taking a long vacation after such minimal time on the job. The boss is a lawyer so I know he’s not running into any of the contracted vacation time issues that some people would be thinking of.

    I feel so scummy. I wish I had known, because it’s going to be harsh for her to realize she’s passed off all her tips and tricks to a fresh grad and she won’t even have a job coming out of it.

    1. Snark*

      Not to be excessively harsh, but……if she expected to have a job coming off a six-week absence when she’s only been with the company for eight weeks, she needed a little reality check anyway.

      I mean, it sucks that they approved the absence and then started to fire her, because it would have been more aboveboard to say “You’ve only been with the company for two months. We can’t have you gone for so long so soon. It would not work for us to keep you on if you do choose to go forward with this trip.” But that’s between your boss and her, not between you and her.

      And at my employer, new employees don’t even start accumulating PTO for three months. So there’s that.

      1. zora*

        But we don’t know what happened at all!! What if she brought this up at the offer stage, that this trip was already planned, and they said it would be fine. And then were pissed off behind her back?? That is entirely likely and that is pretty scummy of the company.

        1. DC*

          Yeah, that was my thought about this process- something that long was likely planned very far in advance, and if she’s only been there two months, it could have been planned while she was at her old job.

    2. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I hope there are other reasons to fire her, because unless they told her that losing her job would be a consequence of taking the trip, firing her for taking a vacation is pretty crappy. I mean, I get that they’re annoyed, but did they approve the vacation? Did they tell her it would be a bad idea? You likely don’t know the details, but this just sounds mean. Not illegal, for sure, but mean.

      1. Monsters of Men*

        The difficulty I think is what we do runs in 30 day cycles. So some cycles are ongoing while she’s gone, and some will start, and some will end. It’s very hard to leave for 6 weeks – in fact, I told him when I was interviewing I would be gone for a week, and now I have to pull overtime to make sure all my “cycles” are caught up while I’m gone.

        He seems otherwise reasonably fair… I just feel so bad. I am sure he told her, because the receptionist mentioned that it seems like she is being purposely obtuse about it.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Well, if this was discussed with her, then Snark is right– she gets what she gets. Sounds harsh, sure, but starting a new job and then leaving for such a long period shortly thereafter is not a good look.

        2. Snark*

          There’s really nothing to feel bad about, except as a sympathetic, “oh, that sucks for you” kind of thing. But she’s apparently making an informed choice. That’s on her.

      2. Amadeo*

        Yeah. On one hand, I can agree that a six week absence after having only been on the job for 2 months is not a good thing to do, I’m hoping that she was at least warned that this would cost her.

    3. Sadsack*

      That really sucks for her. This makes things awkward for you, but it isn’t your fault. Did they not know when they hired her? If not, why did they approve it?

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Yeah, this is weird. If she had this trip planned, it should have been disclosed before she was hired and if it was a problem, should have been addressed at that time. If she planned it after starting the job, why didn’t they tell her when she requested the time that she couldn’t take that much after such a short tenure?

          1. The OG Anonsie*

            I can’t really tell whether they really said no and she just blithely did it anyway, or said okay but were fidgety about it and expected her to take the negativity around the approval as a hint to decline it. Or that she already had the trip booked before starting the job and they still hired her but pressured her to cancel the trip and are upset that she didn’t. The former is one thing and the latter ones are entirely another.

            I wonder because I have actually seen people get vacation approved and then be penalized for it in various ways because, despite approving it, management still didn’t like it and expected them to just not do it no matter what. Which is nuts on the part of management– if it’s a problem then don’t approve it, and if it’s not then don’t penalize people.

  35. Promotions?*

    I manage a team of 5 full time Llama Herders. This year I was able to secure small promotions for 2 of them to Senior Llama Herders. These two are high performers who have sought out leadership opportunities and I am excited to promote them. They will have added responsibilities as well as becoming direct supervisors for 1 part time Llama Herder each. My question is, how do I deliver this news to the rest of the team? Obviously I will talk to the 2 I am promoting separately as well as the part time staff who will be reporting to them, but I’m not sure about the other 3 full time staff. Do I let them know in a team meeting or should I pull them aside separately? One of them has been with our organization the same amount of time as the two who are being promoted but is not a high performer and has never expressed interest in increased responsibilities but as we have never had Senior Llama Herders before I don’t know if she’ll be bothered by this change. Is pulling her aside separately making a bigger deal out of this than it should be? Or does it allow a more nuanced conversation that I should be having? Keep in mind she is not a terrible performer, just not excellent and not showing any leadership on the team in spite of her tenure.

    1. Snark*

      Team meeting. Light and breezy. “Hey, llama wranglers, we’ve got news. We’re creating two new Senior Llama Herder positions and promoting Llarry and Llinda. Their role will include X, Y, and Z. Congrats, camelid comrades! If anybody has any questions, let me know. ”

      If you approach this as a fraught, heavy topic that people are going to feel bad about, that’s a self-fulfilling prophecy. You don’t have to apologize or justify not promoting someone who doesn’t show any inclination to leadership.

        1. Snark*

          There’s an old Far Side comic where a llama wife is yelling “Llook out, Lloyd! It’s the llandlord!” at her llama husband. 8 year old me died.

          1. Specialk9*

            I’ve been waaaaaaay more please that I should be to have learned from fposte how to pronounce Welsh ll’s (kinda like “Thshpoon” from Mystery Men). I’ve been muttering “Llewellyn. Llewellyn.” to myself in the car, and now suddenly want to go to Wales.

            Thanks fposte!

            (And Far Side amused my 8 year old self excessively too.)

    2. This Daydreamer*

      I think I would just send an email to the whole team congratulating the two who are getting promotions.

    3. Troutwaxer*

      Have a little celebration. Bring coffee and donuts. Don’t spend more than 20-30, but make it a happy thing.

  36. Nervous Accountant*

    Posting from my phone so plz xcuse the typos
    Things have been stagnant for a while. I had an interview which didn’t work out, and I have one coming up. I decided to hold off on looking bc its getting too close to year end. I commit myself to 1 more tax season (if this upcoming one doesnt work out).
    The fury and anger I had just a few months ago….gone. Mostly bc I never talk to my boss (the one who called me stupid) and I deal with my manager (great terms).

    Until today. So I had to do a training w new hires. My partner was out so someone else stepped in. During the training he made an offhand comment–my boss said “well NA doesn’t know anything”

    I’ve done this training 5-6 times. My mgr and boss think (or I thought she thought that) I was capable of this.

    And now that I”ve decided to stay upt for another season, it just feelsl ike a fire I have to swallow.

    1. N.J.*

      Leave. Keep doing interviews. Leave. I’ve seen you post about the insults, the performance concerns, the overwork, the stress, the disrespect, going through hell to get a raise. Keep doing interviews. If you get an offer and decide you don’t want to take it and want to stay another cycle, fine. But in case I didn’t make my opinion clear: leave…leave…leave. You are worth respect and dignity and your workplace doesn’t sound like it offers that.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        Yeah, apparently she said this to the coworker so that he would be convinced to go on the training bc she thinks he needs to take a bigger role in training. So geeeee why not throw NA under the bus and make her seem incompetent.

        And add insult to injury, one of them popped in during a diff training and said “hey guys, pay attn to her, she’s one of the best accountants here.” Everyone picked up on the sarcasm and even asked me “y does everyone pick on u here.” FML

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Time to move on, NA. Basic respect is not in place. If we stay too long in a place like this we forget what basic respect looks like.

  37. De Minimis*

    Finally…

    So, as I mentioned last week, we were turned down for a major grant, and this week they let us know the plan going forward. Basically, layoffs next year, and those that remain will be worked to the bone [and many will probably have to take reductions in their work, like moving down to 80% time, 50% time, etc.] The whole nature of the organization [a nonprofit that distributes federal money to educational institutions] will be changed, and my boss told me probably in five years we’ll only have maybe a quarter of the staff we have now.

    I was kind of cagey about telling my plans to my boss, but I did admit to him that I was looking at a particular other job, but I want to tell him that I’m going to be actively looking and would only remain if I absolutely couldn’t find a job anywhere else. It’s hard to know what to do, I know they are going to make plans based on what they think we’re all going to do. I’d hate to have them think I’m absolutely staying, decide to cut other people, only to find out that I’m leaving as soon as I can—but I also don’t want them to lay me off in case I do have trouble finding something else.

    My feeling is the people laid off will probably be better off than the ones who stay. I don’t see how the organization can continue once their last large active grant ends. Just a bad situation. We’ve been around a few decades, and have weathered similar storms before, but I think this one may be the final nail in the coffin.

    It’s bad too because there are at least a few people who have been here less than year who were hired in anticipation that there would be no funding issues. I think most of them may be okay because they were part of the active grant that still has a few years remaining, but who knows what will be decided. At least the organization going to be transparent–they said they’re letting everyone know what’s happening to them over the next few weeks, even though none of the actual job actions will take place until next year.

    I was planning on leaving anyway [don’t really like the job that much] but I know a lot of other people have really thought they were going to be here until retirement. Just a sad situation.

    1. AcademiaNut*

      If your boss doesn’t realize that you’ll be actively looking for a new job, he would have to be extremely naive. They’ve told people that there will be massive layoffs in the near future, reduction in hours, and serious overworking of those who are lucky enough not to be laid off (likely to be followed by future layoffs). Your boss has also pretty much told you the organization is dying.

      And you’re right, volunteering to be laid off is not a wise move, unless you know you can support yourself through extended unemployment. Your coworkers have basically the same information you do, and should also have the sense to start actively looking for a new job, before the current one disappears. Apply for jobs, give your notice when you get one, and do your best to forward good opportunities or recommend competent coworkers when you do get a new job.

  38. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

    I’m interviewing next week for an internal promotion. It would be a bit of a stretch, but I’ve been partially doing the job since the person left last November. It reports to my current manager and I was encouraged to apply by 4 people in our department. I also have to interview with HR, just like the external candidates. If anyone has any advice on interviewing internally, I’ll take it. In other companies when I applied for internal jobs, it was always a move to new people that I hadn’t worked with. I’m kind of at a loss with interviewing with my own boss – he already knows my work!

    1. medium of ballpoint*

      I don’t have any helpful advice, but I’m always on the lookout for a good band name so I wanted to send some good vibes to someone with a rad username!

    2. RabbitRabbit*

      Been there done that! I think it’ll be like a standard interview but a little more intense – you have no wiggle room on overpromoting your achievements, etc., because the manager already knows you. Be prepared to talk very candidly about your performance in the past, how you have excelled in the partial-performance of that job, what you’ve improved, what you know you need to learn, etc.

    3. Meg*

      Recipient of an internal promotion here! Internal candidates often have an advantage over external candidates (all other things being equal) because of the amount of institutional knowledge that you have — you’re a known quantity, and you’ve already gone through at least some of the learning curve that faces anyone in a new position. So I would definitely lean on that in your answers, especially if a high amount of institutional knowledge is important in your role/industry. Talk about how you could hit the ground running, how you’ve already been working on project x and y, how you would go about learning the rest of what you need to know, and how you’re excited to further develop those projects and move into that work full-time.

      But definitely don’t relax about it! Dress up, prepare just like you would for a regular interview, and send your follow-up thank yous. Good luck!!

      1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

        I was definitely planning to dress for an interview but I don’t think I would have thought to do the thank yous for an internal spot. Good idea!

    4. Shark Whisperer*

      I had an internal interview with my own boss recently and it was really great. It was actually really nice that she already knew my work because I didn’t have to spend time explaining background for my examples. Also, for a couple of examples I used, my boss knew the results I got, but not how I got them. I ended up talking more about small achievements that my boss was less exposed to than big achievements, but I don’t think that was a bad thing.

  39. She doesn't work*

    I work with a team of three people, two of whom are half time. One of these people doesn’t seem to do any work. The full time person is constantly covering for her, finishing up her tasks (it’s an education program that’s split out into full time gets certain years and this half time gets other years, and the good half time is in charge of a specific slightly separate portfolio). I’m an admin, so they’re above me in hierarchy though I report to someone else. I just… I’m so exhausted with chasing her down for information, only to find out the FT has taken it over to finish it off. I don’t feel like it would be appropriate for me to raise it with her manager (who is covering for someone else’s leave until summer) but I’m so heckin tired of it, I’m at a BEC stage with her.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      Is this actually your problem or the FT person’s?

      It seems like the bit that’s actually your problem is not who’s doing what work, but them not telling you / giving you info?

    2. Snark*

      I think you can raise it with her manager in a side-door kind of way. “I’ve been having problems getting information from Jane, and I frequently end up discovering that Fergus has just finished up for her without my knowing. Do you have any insights into how I might work with her better to get that information quickly?”

      And Boss will be like, “Whaaaaaaaat say that part about Fergus finishing up for her again.”

  40. Antilles*

    Thought about this based on this morning’s post:
    I’ve always wondered whether we’d start to see a movement away from handshakes as a default form of greeting. People are a lot more aware of their health than they used to be and a lot of companies (particularly in trendy areas) seem to be significantly more concerned with fitness and employee wellness than ever before. And that’s not even getting into the grossness – we could legitimately do a whole thread on studies about “Did you know that (surprisingly large percentage) of Americans don’t wash their hands after (something)”.
    But I can probably count on my fingers the number of times I’ve met someone who refused to shake hands and I’ve never even heard of any sort of ‘anti-shake’ movement. Is this a custom just so ingrained that we’re stuck with it, regardless of the health/grossness issues?

        2. Specialk9*

          In Spain, at least socially, everybody does 3 cheek air kisses. It feels glamorous, and it’s impressive when even 12 year old boys do it with aplomb, but takes *forever*.

          Not sure in business what the convention is.

    2. Manders*

      It seems goofy, but I’ve been to some conferences where the organizers tried to encourage fist bumping instead of handshaking. That way you’re only touching someone’s knuckles, and you’re less likely to be spreading germs. I don’t know if it’s going to catch on.

      Bowing or nodding is another alternative, but I don’t know if it’s used at all outside of east Asia, and convincing Americans to bow to each other would definitely be an uphill battle.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Having worked for a Public Health organization, I’ll say no one tended to /offer/ handshakes, which I think is the key difference. If someone reaches out to shake your hand, it’s assumed that (unless sick or injured) the polite thing is to shake their hand. But if folks stop sticking their hand out, no one seems to feel awkward skipping that part of the ‘meet and greet’. We just exchange nods and such.

      1. JustaTech*

        I’ve had people try to shake my hand when I was wearing gloves in the lab. I just waved, but part of me felt like “Are you nuts?”

    4. LKW*

      Very ingrained although hugging does seem to be increasing (to my dismay). I was just at a conference and the standard greeting for someone you worked with at a former project or who went to a new company was a hug, but when introduced to someone for the first time – handshake.

      Although I like the idea of fist bumping – I think that being introduced to a number of people would feel too much like “One potato, two potato”

    5. HannahS*

      I really hope so. I was in elementary school in an area hit hard by SARS, and there was a whole public health campaign to get people to stop shaking hands. I’m in my mid-twenties, and I find that my peers and I largely don’t shake hands, but the divisions are along geographical/cultural/ethnic lines. People from large, multicultural urban centers tend to shake hands less. People from rural environments tend to more. Also, men do more than women.

    6. ..Kat..*

      As a nurse in a pediatric intensive care unit, I frequently say “infection control high five ” and hold my fist up for a fist bump. I am going to do this more as we approach cold and flu season.

  41. Anon for this*

    My department has hired its first person of color in at least 5 years, and she starts in two weeks. My coworkers seem excited, in a good way, about the department becoming slightly more diverse, but I’m starting to worry that they are a little too focused on that and might say something well-meaning but inappropriate. Such as, I don’t know, “Nice to meet you! I had a black friend in college. Hey, do you know him — Joe Schmoe?”

    I’m nobody’s boss, so I don’t have any authority over my coworkers, but I’m wondering what I should do in the event that somebody says something like this in front of me. I don’t want to be the PC police or anything, but I don’t want the new hire to be scared away or made uncomfortable. Maybe I’m worrying over nothing (there are employees of color in other departments and I haven’t seen or heard anyone in my department having issues with them), but I’d like to be prepared just in case.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      No specific advice, but as a minority, can I tell you how squicky it is that your co-workers are excited simply because this person is a PoC? (I think you get that, so I’m reiterating, but still). Like, if I were coming on board and someone was all, “Ooh, yay, our very first Jew!” and I found out about that? Man, I would run so far away, so fast. In your position, one thing to do is do your very best to remember that your new co-worker is a person. She might be nice, rude, loud, quiet, confident, nervous, etc. Don’t assume that she’ll react in certain ways or that some things will offend her (or that they won’t). If someone does say to you today, “Oh, I can’t wait for X to start on Monday! Our first minority!”, then I would probably tell them that such a sentiment is awfully strange.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yeah, it makes me cringe that they are commenting so much on her race, but at the same time, I don’t want to criticize them for looking at diversity as a positive thing. Nobody (except the manager who interviewed her) really knows much about her yet; we only know her name and previous employer and title, and people looked her up on Facebook and saw her photos. I’m hoping they know enough not to make comments on her race when she gets here, but the fact that they are talking about it so much now has me worried.

      2. I'm Not Phyllis*

        Yes to all of this. And as someone who is not a PoC, I can tell you that I too would run far and fast.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you should be prepared to say things like “Wow” and “You just said that out loud.” Get ready with some eye rolls and such.

      1. medium of ballpoint*

        Seconded. And since you seem pretty aware of things, make sure you’re communicating you’re a good person to chat with/vent to. It’s always to find that first person you with whom you don’t have to be on guard.

        (Unrelated, but this made me realize that similar excitement from other POCs doesn’t bother. I guess because it feels like we’re in it together that response has a different vibe. Good old in group/out group!)

      2. Jillociraptor*

        I see this a little differently. If the colleagues are saying these sorts of things with knowledge that they are offensive, I think this response is spot on. People who are trying to stir the pot should get this kind of response.

        However, it sounds like OP’s coworkers are speaking from a place of ignorance. If OP actually wants to help create a more inclusive and equitable space, she actually has to do the work of talking to colleagues so they understand the problem. This approach just teaches people that talking about race is bad, without equipping them with skills to actually assess how their behavior and choices are contributing to a workplace that’s some degree of hostile to certain identities. This will require multiple conversations, and probably some degree of managing White Feelings, but it’s the only way to do the work.

        1. Anon for this*

          I’m not sure I’m the right person to have these conversations because I’m not in a position of authority. I’d be fine with a casual, “Hey, you might not know this, but…” type of conversation, though. If I hear somebody say something inappropriate, would it be better to say something right then (in front of the new employee), or wait until I can talk to the person in private?

          1. Jillociraptor*

            I would think about this less as a performance issue and more as a being a good person issue, though. If you are in proximity to injustice I think you have an obligation to address it.

            I would actually do both, but it definitely takes a lot of feeling out. In the case you described in your original post, in the moment I would say something with a good-natured but not joking tone like, “I’m sure Jane doesn’t know all other Black people. Anyway, better get back to work.”

            Then, I’d follow up with the coworker with something like, “Hey, I wanted to follow up on what I said earlier. You might not realize this but when you suggest that someone knows everyone with their same identity, it can come across as though you view them all as a monolithic block. I know you don’t feel that way or want Jane to feel that way, so I wanted to mention it to you.”

            It’s a lot to navigate because you also don’t want to come across as Jane’s White Savior. There are definitely times when people make offensive comments about identities that I have when I just wish others would let them slide because I don’t have the energy to teach Antisemitism 101 or Feminism 101 that day. You won’t do it perfectly every time, but it’s important to do.

      3. LKW*

        It’s hard when your not in a position to provide guidance.

        Not your job to be the white angel. Not the employees responsibility to teach the others how to not be offensive. Maybe you can recommend some diversity training. People are more than their pigmentation, their religion, their gender or their disability.

        1. Anon for this*

          We’ve had diversity training! Last year, every employee had to attend a mandatory full-day diversity class. I think it’s possible that this is part of the reason for some of the comments — the training had a lot of information about the benefits of a diverse workforce. The training on how to treat people was mainly about how not to create a hostile work environment (such as not using slurs, not being mean to people because they’re a different race/religion/gender/age/sexual orientation, not making negative comments about specific groups, etc.), but I can imagine someone thinking it’s ok to say positive things about someone’s race.

          I feel like it could be condescending to the new employee if I act like I’m trying to “come to her rescue” but I’d hate to see people scare her away by making the kind of comments to/in front of her that they’ve been making to each other. Plus, I’d be embarrassed on behalf of the department!

    3. Jillociraptor*

      Frankly, even in places where people don’t get giddy about hiring a person of color (eeeepppp) these kinds of microagressions are common. It’s great that you notice them and want to help stop them.

      The most neutral way I’ve found to address these kinds of things is a “Hey, you might not know this, but…” tone to really briefly explain the issue.

      Some people, no matter how friendly you are when you point it out, will not be able to accept that their well-intentioned comment could be offensive when coming from a different perspective, so you also have to be prepared to have some uncomfortable conversations. If you’re able to avoid calling people out to feel self-righteous, which it definitely doesn’t sound like you’re planning to do, you can rest assured that if people have a bad reaction, it’s not you, it’s their sensitivity.

  42. Keladry of Mindelan*

    My boyfriend is currently job searching, and has been for awhile. It’s super annoying to go to an interview and find out that the job is 1)part time 2)involves frequent travel for a week at a time 3)is actually a contract position that would expire in a few months. None of those things were advertised in the job posting. All of which would have been very useful to know ahead of time.

    So that was our disappointing Wednesday. Hopefully his interview next Friday at a different company goes better.

    1. Chaordic One*

      I think that sometimes employers are deliberately vague in the job description details when the job includes things that are probably going to be considered negatives by prospective employees. It wastes everybody’s time and it sucks. I suppose that sometimes an prospective employee will be “roped in” because he or she was desperate or maybe just gullible.

      1. Keladry of Mindelan*

        Yeah, it’s really annoying. If they were honest in the ad, they may actually have found someone for whom that job would have been a perfect fit. As it stands, everyone’s time was wasted, including the interviewers.

    2. WAnon*

      I’m just leaving this to squee over your username since I just reread through the whole of the series (and all the Tortall series!).
      Also – Numair book is coming out soon!

      1. Keladry of Mindelan*

        Thank you! I’m so incredibly excited about more Tortall books. I’m still fangirling over the fact that Tamora Pierce signed my copies of Squire and Lady Knight at the Washington DC Smithsonian Book Festival a few years back.

        1. krysb*

          Her Trickster’s Choice and Trickster’s Queen are two of my favorite books. I would totally squee if I got them signed.

        2. Specialk9*

          I read Terrier (Beka), and wanted to like it but Decidedly Didn’t. I liked Daughter of the Lioness series though. What do you recommend?

          1. Keladry of Mindelan*

            As my username might imply, the Protector of the Small quartet is my favorite. Out of all of TP’s heroines, Keladry always felt the most real and relatable to me. In her Circle of Magic universe, may favorite book is The Will of the Empress. It’s a later one in the series, but I think it actually can stand on its own if you haven’t read any of the previous books. A quick googling of the previous books and characters might help, but it’s still great even if you haven’t read the previous 2 quartets.

            1. Specialk9*

              Thanks! I actually started First Test, now I went back and looked at it. I kept getting mad that they were being so sexist to her, giving barriers the boys didn’t have. It felt too close to 2017 to be good escapism. But it sounds like it’s worth pushing through that. Thanks!

        3. Fact & Fiction*

          I was lucky enough to meet Tamora a couple years again when she was Guest of Honor at my local SFF convention. I’m pretty much an unknown as an author and she was just lovely. I need to reread all her books again and catch up on the ones I’ve not read yet.

  43. Master Bean Counter*

    Bullet dodged this week!
    I have the opportunity to go to a training 20 minutes from the central California coast next month. Given where this is located it’s going to be a 8 hour road trip each way. The thought of being in car for 8 hours for two days with my sports obsessed coworker sounds only slightly more appealing than having my fingernails ripped off one by one.
    So I hit it early and decided to make a deal, I’ll get paid gas and actual expenses for the business days on the trip, but I can go up two days early with my husband and enjoy a couple of days at the beach before the training.

  44. Elfie*

    Okay, I need some advice and help. I am doing line management for the first time ever (been working for nearly 20 years – I guess I’m a late developer!), and gosh it’s hard! I have a graduate on a 5-month placement, and I have to come up with stuff for her to do. She’s very bright, but not technical, and she’s not going to be doing the job that I do (she’s a Llama Birthing Co-Ordinator, whilst I’m a Llama Birthing Instruments Technical Specialist, for example). I’ve got a project for her to run, but it’s not as far along as I’d have liked, so there’s not much for her to do just yet. She’s three weeks into her placement, and I’m worried that she’s getting bored and I’m not supporting her to achieve her objectives fast enough. She’s asked other people for work to do, and I’m worried that I’m failing in my line management objectives (part of my development objectives for this year). What can I do differently? I’ve asked my line manager for anything she might be able to do, as well as my colleague, but because most of our tasks are technical, it’s not like we can really delegate our tasks to her. Any advice?

      1. Elfie*

        A possibility – I’ve had her shadow me in some meetings, and she’s going to shadow an existing Llama Birthing Co-Ordinator for a day – but I want to give her something meaty and interesting to get stuck into, not just busywork. I guess it doesn’t help that she’s a grad, and this is her first professional role, as well as it being my first experience of line management – we’re both just figuring it out as we go along. I’ll have a think about whether there’s anyone else she could shadow that might help her out.

  45. Katiedid*

    Here’s a broad question: what is “leadership?” My office (as I think many do) looks to identify “leaders.” The problem is that I don’t think we know what that means and it seems to be defaulting to “this person is the loudest and pushiest in meetings” or “they’re the youngest in a department of people who are much, much older” which apparently I’m alone in thinking is not probably the best examples of “leadership,” although the second group could be (and often are) leadership material, just that that isn’t a qualification in and of itself.

    Any thoughts from the collective on what you would consider leadership qualities and how those can be identified? Maybe the problem is trying to identify “leadership potential” as an inherently inborn set of traits that can only be expanded on and not taught outright?

    1. Katie the Fed*

      Leadership to me means people who put the interests of the team/mission ahead of their own. I’m not an out-in-front leader. I like to quietly lead in the background – giving my people opportunities, encouraging them, training them, etc.

      1. Specialk9*

        Leaders paint a vision for direction, clear obstacles, and shine spotlights of glory around them (not on themselves).

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I identify leaders as individuals who will take initiative to solve problems, are respectful of their peers, and generally work toward making to organization and employees perform better.
      But it seems like these leadership hunts just pull out people who can write the best essay of why they are great, which usually includes shallow examples of volunteer work and inflation of work duties. Sigh.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Oh, and leaders take responsibility of their work and the work of their direct reports. That’s so important!

        1. Nico M*

          Seems to me based on above leadership isn’t innate, it’s a product of the organisations reward system.

    3. NW Mossy*

      In my company, one of the things we look for to assess leadership potential is identifying the people others turn to for advice. It’s partially about the person having the expertise to answer the question, but also about how approachable and collaborative that person is and their willingness to help someone else succeed. Experts that people don’t seek out generally have some more work to do before they’re ready for leadership – they might need to work on smoothing out an abrasive manner or pushing themselves to speak up more.

      Another key element is to look for people who are strong connectors – people who recognize that they don’t know an answer, but can think through who in the company would know and has the relationships to bring the questioner and the one with the answer together. Leadership is about what you can accomplish in conjunction with others much more than it is about what you can do alone, so people who demonstrate aptitude in pulling together the right minds to solve a challenge are often worth developing for leadership.

      1. Katiedid*

        This is such a good thought! I completely agree about the idea that leadership is not being the know-it-all, but rather the person who knows what they don’t know and how to tap the expertise of themselves and others to get the best result.

        I think this is piece that I believe we’re ignoring – and admittedly also the piece that can be hardest to identify, especially in new employees. I’m certainly not discounting the importance of expertise in and of itself, but it’s also an acceptance that you aren’t the only person with expertise and being able to bring all the pieces together to get the end result. We’ve accepted as an organization in theory that the current model of the workplace is no longer the “command and control” manager, but judging by some of the people we’ve identified as having “leader written all over them,” I don’t know that we’ve actually internalized it.

    4. Trout 'Waver*

      Leadership is a skill like any other. Some people have a natural proclivity, but just about anyone can be taught.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      There are formal leaders and informal leaders. A formal leader has a title. An informal leader is someone whose opinion matters for whatever reason. In your example, their opinion matters because they yell the loudest.

      Entire books have been written on what it takes to make a leader. Try thinking about it this way: If you took out the word leader and put in auto repair tech, it gets a bit easier to see.
      Not everyone is born with gift of grasping complex technical things.
      Of those who are, not all them want to work on complex technical things.
      Dwindling down even more, of those who remain some may find auto tech beyond their scope.
      And finally, some people cannot learn some of the new and higher technology.

      I think it goes in a similar vein for leaders. But no it cannot be taught to everyone. And we see it here, many of the bosses who can’t learn.

  46. Qprinter*

    Need strengthening and bucking up. Was informed verbally by my boss on Tuesday morning that it wasn’t working out and they would be ending my employment here at the end of the month. He didn’t have answers to my questions about terms (COBRA, etc.) but did know that I would be asked to officially resign. He’s pressed me again (in writing) for my resignation letter by next Tuesday, even though I’ve seen nothing in writing about my layoff/termination or there’s been nothing written down about the terms they’re offering.. He’s said he’d like to eliminate my position and bring in two people (higher level and an admin), so that could technically be a change in status/elimination of position. I’m not resigning because I’m not waiving my right to unemployment, and not going to tell potential future employers that I resigned without anything lined up. Any advice on how to stay firm or phrases to use in the conversations?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Oof, I don’t have any advice but wanted to say that sucks, I’m sorry!

      I think you’re taking the right track holding firm though; it sounds like they are handling it strangely.

    2. Sadsack*

      If he is eliminating your position, why are you expected to resign? I don’t think I would resign.

      1. Sadsack*

        Maybe you should go to HR to ask about the severance, cobra, etc. And make sure they understand that you are not resigning.

        1. Qprinter*

          I’ve heard NOTHING from HR. I emailed Wednesday afternoon and haven’t heard back since then. I’m going to see how today’s conversation with the boss goes and then follow up with a written note to HR reiterating that I am not resigning.

          1. EddieSherbert*

            Can you call or speak to someone in-person in HR? In my experience, that tends to get a prompter reply.
            And it gives you a point person you can follow up with (versus various people who can claim this is the first they’ve heard). Okay, Joe in HR knows the issue and is looking into it? Thanks Joe. Talk to you soon Joe. We’ll touch base on Monday, right, Joe?

            1. The OG Anonsie*

              Do this, and also look into what the local laws are for you with unemployment. Where I live, being required to resign is still considered termination on the part of the employer and is treated the same, but I imagine you’d have to be able to document that correctly.

      2. Rainbow Hair Chick*

        Exactly what Sadsack says!! If they are eliminating your position then they should lay you off to get unemployment. Please talk to someone at your local unemployment office and see if they can do this (I dont think they can) And if they are eliminating your position please ask for a letter of reference.

    3. NaoNao*

      Yeah, don’t sign anything like a resignation.
      Maybe tell him “I don’t actually want to resign, as that will negatively impact my future. I hope you understand.”

    4. Stop That Goat*

      I have to agree that I don’t think I’d resign. It’s too much of a risk and for what exactly? Maybe some “I’m under the impression that my position is being eliminated. Resigning isn’t an option at this point so how should we proceed?”

      Good luck!

    5. JulieBulie*

      HELL NO do not resign. If they want to get rid of you, they can take the responsibility for the decision.

      1. ThursdaysGeek*

        Yes! It really sounds like they’re trying to dodge the unemployment benefits, and you can’t be forced to go along with that!

    6. Specialk9*

      I’m so sorry this is happening to you!!

      They’re being dodgy. No you’re not resigning, you’re being laid off.

      Document the conversation in an email to your boss, bcc’ed to.your personal email: “Per our conversation X date that you are eliminating my position in order to replace my position with two other positions, I am requesting the name of an HR rep with whom I can discuss terms. Thank you.”

      Put it in writing what he said verbally, and make it clear that his phrasing was layoff/position elimination, rather than firing. But without forcing him to get defensive and start slinging mud at you.

    7. Natalie*

      I agree you should definitely not resign, especially since they are apparently eliminating the position. Don’t let them pretend it’s the same thing as getting fired, because it’s not. Plus it’s easier to explain and easier for unemployment, as you said. Maybe if they gave you a redonkulous severance package (like, 6 months + salary) but definitely not without it.

      Just for your information, COBRA kicks in at any time that you lose eligibility for your group health coverage, no matter the reason. You can wait up to 60 days to elect for COBRA and up to 45 days after that to make the first payment, and once you do it’s retroactive to the day you lost coverage. So there’s a bit of a COBRA float you can play with if you’re overall healthy but concerned about accidents, etc. Also, you won’t be penalized on your taxes for not having coverage for a short gap between jobs, so don’t worry about that either.

    8. Mike C.*

      Wait, he pressed you for a letter of resignation? Make sure you keep a copy of that for the labor boar!

  47. OkayDokay*

    Does anyone have advice on how to say you’d like to stay with a company, but in a different position? Recently moved to an area and took a temp job in a similar department to my previous job. The expectation was that I’d continue to look for a permanent job in the meantime, but I got lazy/busy and haven’t been nearly as diligent in my job search as I should have been over the summer. So, now my temp job is looking to make me permanent and I’m conflicted. I like the company and my department well enough, but the work is much more simple than my last job (which didn’t bother me as a temp position, but I don’t think it’d change appreciably as perm). There are some other positions with the company I’d be interested in, but I don’t know how to approach it with my manager. Even though we’d spoken vaguely about the possibility of internal promotions, getting a foot in the door with the company, etc, when I was hired, I haven’t really mentioned it since.
    On another note, I feel like if I’m offered perm I need to take it, but I’m mad at myself for being lazy. I feel like this move (spouse-related, but we’re now here for the long haul) has me starting over again and 7 years out of college I’m not really getting into a career and starting to fall behind. This job seems… below my abilities? And compensated thusly. Between moves for the spouse and a layoff, I’m not really progressing. This feels like one of those “lean in” opportunities my mom keeps bringing up, but I don’t know if it makes sense to take a job I can get not knowing how long it would be until I get something more in line with what I want, or if it’s too likely I’ll end up burning a bridge.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Do they post job openings anywhere?
      I think if I could find a list of their internal openings I would start applying for the ones that seem reasonable to apply to.
      In other words instead of waiting for them to tell me, or me asking approval, I would hunt down the information then notify my boss that I am interested in applying for x or y opening.

  48. Pocketofsunshine*

    Wondering what your workplaces expect in terms of energy and workload? I’ve been in the same organization since college and I’m beginning to realize our culture expects 100-150% output all the time (overtime is frowned upon, but most people do it to hit the 150% level).

    Wondering if there are places that encourage giving 70-80% daily and then kick up to 90-100% for important or urgent issues as a reasonable way to maintain work/life balance? I’m so tired (probably burned out) from years of giving it my all every single day. If I scale back to 80% I get feedback like “that’s all you are working on??” But I can’t seem to maintain the 100% effort/quality without being exhausted all the time and my personal life is being negatively effected because I don’t have the energy to tackle any of my pet projects or hobbies (it’s all I can do to keep my house clean and myself fed outside of work some weeks). Trying to figure out if this is normal or if my workplace does expect too much.

    Curious what your experiences are! Also particularly interested to hear from any managers about what your expectations are of your staff.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Sure. There’s a bunch of us hanging out here instead of working, right? ;)
      Generally speaking, unless the work comes slamming in, there’s no particular need for me to be working at 100%. As long as work gets done when it needs to.

      1. Susan K*

        Well, I never use the internet for non-work purposes while I’m on the clock. I work rotating shifts and today’s my day off.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          And I read before and after work.

          In answer to the question, I think my work expects me to be human? Sometimes it’s intensely busy and sometimes not.

    2. rosiebyanyothername*

      My office recently got a talk about how we shouldn’t call it “work-life balance,” but “work-life integration”… which sounds like we should be expected to always work late and answer emails on weekends. Ugh.

    3. Elfie*

      Well, I’m usually running at about 80% capacity, which ramps up to maybe 110% if I’m really busy, but that only happens just before a major deadline, of which there are probably 1 or 2 a year. I’ve always been in this position where everyone else around me seems super busy and I’m just … not. I did ask my manager if I was lazy or they were inefficient (or manufacturing work to seem important) – I didn’t say it just like that, but that was the gist. I got told they suspected it was the latter, so I’m not going to get too worried about it. But I reckon it’s highly industry-specific. I work in IT on projects, so the nature of the work is going to be variable anyway.

    4. Chaordic One*

      My experiences are similar to yours. I find I always start out a new job and it might go well for a couple of years and then, over time, the job description changes. The volume of work goes up and additional tasks get added into the mix and additional steps get added into the existing tasks. I don’t know what to tell you, but I sure can relate to the situation.

    5. Susan K*

      Oh wow, this hits really close to home because my workplace is the same way. I feel like I am constantly being pushed to the limit. If I kick it up once for something urgent or important, management sees that I can work at that pace and then expects me to do that all the time. I am so exhausted that I spend my days off recovering from work and I never have any energy to do the things I want to (or should) do.

      I look at it like running a marathon (not that I am a runner, haha! I certainly don’t have the energy for that). Marathon runners don’t sprint the whole 26 miles. You can’t expect them to run at their 100-yard dash pace for the whole marathon. And I don’t think management should expect people to work at their top speed all of the time, either.

      What’s really frustrating to me is that some of my coworkers, I think, have figured out that they’re better off never giving 100%. If the most they ever give is 80%, that’s all management expects from them. I guess I’m just stupid enough to push myself harder when it’s important, but then management thinks I can handle that much all the time.

    6. Specialk9*

      Yup. Lots of jobs that have reasonable work balance. Find a new company, that sounds cult-y and like questionable labor practices.

    7. Wheezy Weasel*

      Worked mostly in higher ed, so the usual caveat of a somewhat alternative universe may apply. I think it starts with how you set expectations when you first start a job and stick to the output level that you can reasonably sustain. Most companies are never going to explicitly tell you to work 80% and kick it into high gear when necessary. I’ve shot for 75-80% effort on most days with brief spurts for important projects, but frequently check in with the boss to say ‘this isn’t going to get done unless we lose these two other tasks, extend the timeline, or hire more people’. In a relatively sane environment, your workload gets adjusted accordingly. If everyone at the company works at 150% capacity and you are the outlier, it’s harder to manage and it might affect you negatively, but in my experience, individual managers are willing to keep someone onboard that can adequately manage their workload even if the rest of the team doesn’t.

      I read an interesting article about how overworking might signal the wrong thing to employers as well (please excuse the clickbait-style headline including the word Millenials)

      https://www.forbes.com/sites/carolinebeaton/2016/05/12/millennials-this-is-why-you-havent-been-promoted/#287ebc8529a7

  49. Juxtapose is Just a Pose*

    What’s the best way to ask to step out to network?

    I work for Org A, and my friend at Company B has invited me over to come meet her team, which I’m really excited about because her team is exactly the kind of place I’d love to work… in a couple years, because I like where I’m at currently. I’m hoping I can time it so that I can plausibly say I’m stepping out to get lunch with a friend, but what if I can’t? Do I just say an appointment?

    1. Susan K*

      How long do you expect it to take to “meet her team”? If it’s quick enough that you can do it over your lunch break (or if your company is flexible enough to let you take a long lunch and make it up by staying late), I think it’s fine to say you’re going out to meet a friend for lunch. If it’s going to take a few hours out of your work day, though, maybe consider using PTO. For example, if you have a week of vacation coming up, can you go to meet your friend’s team during that week? Or could you use a half-day of vacation to leave at lunch, go meet the team, and use the rest of the day for errands or something? I know it’s common to use the “appointment” excuse for an interview, but I think this is different because it’s not time-sensitive like an interview.

  50. Anonny*

    What should a man wear for an interview for a seasonal cashiering job at a major retailer specializing in outdoor equipment and apparel?

    I was thinking slacks, a buttoned shirt, no tie, and a corduroy jacket. Something like this:

    https://c.shld.net/rpx/i/s/i/spin/10040255/prod_1626873312?hei=245&wid=245&op_sharpen=1&qlt=85

    Or this (not the same material, but a similar color): https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9f/f0/7b/9ff07bff66bd8bf631c3f60c0229f4e5.jpg

    Thoughts? Ideas?

    1. Amber Rose*

      A nice collared shirt and black or dark blue pants with a belt is standard for that kind of position. The jacket is a bit too formal, in my opinion.

    2. TCO*

      If you’re interviewing for a seasonal cashiering job at the same Seattle-based major outdoor retailer I used to work at, then just slacks and a button-down would be plenty formal. A lot of interviewees will probably wear jeans, but I don’t see any harm in going one step up from that to show that you’re serious and professional. The outdoor industry is very casual, though, so a jacket would be overdressing for a cashier job.

      I really enjoyed my side gig at said retailer and worked there off and on for years. While a lot of the enjoyment is obviously based on store-level management and culture, it’s a good company to work for. Good luck!

      1. I heart Recreational Equipment*

        Heya! I work at a flagship store of that Seattle-based major outdoor retailer! I started seasonally several years ago and have continued part-time ever since! And I agree that slacks and a button-down shirt should be fine. I’m pretty sure that’s exactly what I wore.
        Best of luck! If we’re talking about the same company–it’s an AWESOME company to work for! If not… it’s a fun industry and I’m sure you’ll enjoy whichever store it is!

  51. qwertyuiop*

    I want to take some classes in either HTML/XML class or maybe a SQL class, but I’m not sure which class would be most beneficial. I’m in library science and I do have knowledge of HTML and took some basic web design classes, but it’s been a while. Any thoughts?

    1. Amadeo*

      What, specifically is your goal with the classes? Are you just wanting to make web pages or are you going to want to do development/programming or are you just exploring ideas?

      1. Admin of Sys*

        2nding Amedo’s comment – what do you want to do with the knowledge you pick up? If it’s just a ‘get more technical experience’ sort of thing, and you’re not starting to build towards a particular skill set, I’d suggest the sql. Having a good grounding in database structure and such is broadly useful in library sciences, imo. But if you specifically want to get into coding webpages, go for the xml/html.

      2. AnotherLibrarian*

        I agree with Amadeo. What do you want to do when this is all over? I think it really depends on what you want to do with the skill. They are very different skills. Also, consider if one class is going to teach you enough to really be beneficial, or would it be better to learn to use a specific program like ArchivesSpace or ContentDM. (All my examples come from archives, but there are other programs out there for other fields.)

    2. Meg*

      If you think you’d ever be interested in doing other data work, I would recommend SQL. It’s a good foundation that’s applicable to a lot of different programs. In our hiring for data positions, we often use SQL as an indicator of sorts — “well, if they know SQL, they’ll be able to pick up X and Y.”

    3. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      What do you want to do with it when you are done?

      Also, free classes or online. There are a few good ones for SQL if I remember correctly. I got a cheap book for the new HTML.

    5. Cassandra*

      Suggestions based on your possible career leanings:

      Public service (reference, instruction, etc): Information architecture, UX/usability, basic SEO, basic responsive design (like, know what it is and why it matters), project management — aside from minor page tweaks (which you can do already with the HTML you have), the major work tasks will be UX- and project-management-related, not so much bits-on-the-wire.

      Actual web development: The above, plus CSS and the basics of a web-friendly programming language (Javascript, PHP, or Ruby, probably). Maybe a CSS framework (such as Bootstrap), just to figure out how they work. Maybe get acquainted with a web CMS or two (WordPress and Drupal are common).

      Cataloging/metadata/other tech services: XML and SQL, since so many tech services jobs these days are hybrid (MARC plus whatever else). If you can learn some linked data (RDF), do it. Be aware that “XML” is a portmanteau (in the Humpty Dumpty sense) for many XML-based metadata languages; get a handle on Dublin Core (any serialization, doesn’t matter that much) and MODS at minimum.

      Digitization or digital preservation: XML and SQL. You will use them both! Linked data a plus here as well.

      I’ll try to check in if you have follow-up questions.

  52. Jake*

    Just found out 2 hours ago that today I get to work 6am to 1am and then Saturday 9am to 5pm.

    I’m in a bad mood.

    3. Construction Safety*

      Srsly? A 19h our shift? And only 8 hours off between shifts?

      I hope it’s $$ worth it.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        In NY that is legal for non-exempt also. It’s a “back to back”. Companies do not care if it takes you two hours to get home in a snow storm and then two hours to get back therefore you had four actual hours at home.

        then they wonder why health care costs go up. grr.

        1. Jake*

          Yeah, the legality isn’t in question in my situation, just the sanity.

          Surely they realize that having me work 2 19+ hour shifts a week for 3 weeks (on top of the rest of the week being 10-12 hour shifts) is the perfect way to get me to quit?

    4. Jake*

      Plus, didn’t mention I had plans to go see a friend on Saturday that is in Dental School and I haven’t seen in 3 months. Probably won’t see him for another 3 months now.

      I’ve been in this career 6 years now, and I just can’t find an employer that doesn’t run you into the ground. In the 13 calendar days ending at 11:59 on Saturday night I will have worked over 145 hours. Might be time to figure out a new career path.

      1. Jake*

        Construction Superintendent. Wouldn’t be so bad if I wasn’t Exempt, and I knew about this earlier than than 2 hours into the shift!

  53. rosiebyanyothername*

    I am fairly new to the workforce, in my first “real” job post-graduation. I want to work in the arts, and all my previous experience had been in nonprofits. I had a pretty long and grueling job search my senior year. I interviewed at many non-profits and arts-related companies, but the only position I had been offered was an unpaid internship. Then, right before graduation, I was offered a position at a for-profit company that was kind of tangentially related to the arts, but it was full-time and actually paid me in money instead of a “lunch stipend,” so I rescinded the internship offer and took the for-profit job. Now, sixth months later, I can’t shake the feeling that I made a huge mistake. Purely on the basis of money and convenience, the for-profit company is fine. The company’s objectives are in line with my interests, but the company culture is messing with my head and making me feel awful. I’m starting to feel I completely sabotaged my career by picking this job over something that, while unpaid, would have been a foot in the door to a field I actually want to work in.

    I know I’m not going to be at this job forever and I know your first job usually sucks, but it’s just hard for me to feel any purpose with my work at this company. While we work with people in the art world, I get basically no opportunities to network and build those connections for later. In my internships, I was working with young students and people who shared my weird nerdy interests in art and culture. I work with very demanding wealthy people at this company–which, granted, I would have been doing at that internship too (it was in a gallery), but I’m not building up any connections in the field. My coworkers are not passionate about their work either and it kind of all trickles down. At this job I sit in a cube and wait for the phone to ring. Management here is also kind of icky. I’ve only been at this company six months and I’m already feeling incredibly burnt out and like my work is completely pointless–I feel like I’m putting nothing good or productive into the world through this work. I’ve tried to look for arts-related positions that are only on the weekends, like being a museum docent, but so far I’ve basically found nothing that would allow me to continue working this other job full-time.

    Am I just being a whiny millennial? A salary is a salary, but I want to feel purposeful in my work.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Time to bump up your after work stuff. Can’t network on company time? See if there’s any volunteer opportunities that might connect you with people. Or look into the job you want and set up informational meetings, see if you can figure out if there’s extra classes you can be taking or other things you can be doing to improve your odds. Or just find a hobby that provides some fulfillment.

      While your first job isn’t supposed to suck, exactly, it’s pretty normal to feel a little let down. You’re on the lowest rung of a ladder. Try and take a long term view of things. If you can stick it out for at least a year* here, and put in the work, you’ll start climbing that ladder.

      *I know that a year is short and it’s not a magic number, but you’re allowed some wiggle room since you’re new to the workforce. The problem with six months is that it’s almost not long enough to be considered finished training. You want your first job to be worth listing on your resume, and if you can build rapport with your supervisor and get a good reference, even better.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +1

        My first job out of school was similar – sort of related to what I wanted to do but not really getting me experience that would obviously set me up to move into the “right” field. So, first of all, because I was nervous about that, I want to say it DID help me far more than I expected with securing my next job.

        And I also really jumped into volunteering in my field. There are some great sites out there for volunteering in all kinds of fields – remote and local stuff.

        I included “Work Experience” and “Volunteer Experience” sections on my resume, which put both right in front of any interviewers.

      2. rosiebyanyothername*

        My plan is to stick it out for a year… I’m planning to go to grad school and relocate this time next year after my boyfriend graduates. Thankfully I do really get along with my supervisor and most of my immediate coworkers, so I don’t I’ll have too bad a reputation when I’m off to my next position and need references. Volunteering is definitely something I want to get into, maybe taking some online courses too.

        1. zora*

          There’s also this thing they are calling “Social Impact” or “Social Enterprise” now that a lot more for-profits are getting into because of all the millennials in the workforce that feel like you do!

          Look around and check it out. A lot of new companies/startups are in the Social Enterprise space, where they are targeting social issues (including the arts) but with plans to make a profit, not be a nonprofit. And I just signed up for a panel on “Social Impact in Tech” hosted by a tech company, which I am attending partly to network and see what kinds of jobs are out there (as someone coming from nonprofits who is ready to ‘sell out’).

          There are lots of “Young professionals” groups focused on this area, and even some virtual groups out there you can join just online.

    2. Helpful*

      We often don’t feel purposeful at our first jobs. However, it’s not the problem with the job; purpose isn’t going to be handed to you in an entry-level job. It’s your job to find the purpose and dignity in what you do. Figure out the opportunities that you may have as a result of this job. Save up your money so you can take a pay cut to get the next job (if necessary). Look for ways you can beef up your resume for the next job you want. Change your perspective about this, so that you don’t waste the things you can do today to set you up for a better job tomorrow. Good luck to you.

      1. JulieBulie*

        It was a good three or four years before I felt “purposeful.” (And then I was practically begging for mercy!)

        Look for opportunities in this job, and look for the next job. It’ll happen.

  54. Detective Amy Santiago*

    I got my first recruiter reaching out to me on LinkedIn this week. I’m not actively looking for a job, but I figured it couldn’t hurt to talk to her and find out more about the position she was looking to fill. She said that the hiring manager was likely going to want to meet with me next week.

    If it works out, it would be a nice salary bump from where I am right now (I took a huge paycut when I switched jobs for reasons). The only thing I’m not crazy about is the location and increasing my commute. Any advice on potentially negotiating for a part time work from home schedule?

  55. AFineSpringDay*

    My colleagues and I are a bit bummed, our senior colleague thew his hat in the ring to be our new manager, and didn’t get the job. Most of the people on the committee wanted him to have it, but the Big Cheese over-ruled it, saying he wanted to “shake things up”. Funny how they want things “shaken” and then expect the exact same level of smoothness as before. Our new boss seems good on paper, but has never stayed anywhere for longer than 3 years, which for her age and our industry is a bit weird, so we’ll see how this shakes out.

  56. Definitely NOT a T-Rex*

    Within the next year, I’m seriously considering leaving my job so that I can complete full-time training that will (hopefully) allow me to pivot into a related career. Specifically, I’m looking into completing a UX bootcamp.

    The prospects look good: the training will be focused on helping me build a portfolio of real work experience (rather than hypothetical classroom exercises), the training will be shorter (a few months) but more intense, and past students who have completed the training seem to almost always be able to get jobs (sometimes before they’ve even completed the training). There’s no way I can do this and keep my current job at the same time (relocation, for one thing).

    As you can imagine, though, I’m pretty scared! If I do this and don’t end up getting a job right away, how do I explain the gap to employers? Especially if it looks like I won’t be able to make the transition and need to go back to work in my old industry to make ends meet? Does anyone have any experience or tips with this kind of strange situation?

    1. Tabby Baltimore*

      Are we talking “UX” as in “unexploded ordnance”? If I were you, then, yes, I *would* be scared! Seriously, though, I think one way to handle your concerns might be to ask about the bootcamp graduates’ job placement rates after completing the course. I realize this post will go into moderation, so you may never see it, but for those who are curious about “How do I ask about placement rates?” this URL to St. Olaf College (I have no connection to this institution) https://wp.stolaf.edu/outcomes/employment-outcomes/ provides a screen full of data that you can use to help you form nuanced questions, like “What percentage of the camp’s graduates go into private sector jobs? Non-profit jobs? Government?” and “What were the top 10 employers for the most recent graduating class?” and “What percentage of graduates got full-time employment after graduating? What percentage got part-time work? What was the range of hours for part-time work?” and “What was the average beginning salary for FT work? For PT work?” Unfortunately, a lot of this data is probably going to be self-reported from the camp’s graduates (assuming the bootcamp even collects it), so might be suspect from the beginning. I would think that a camp that is legit, though, would be collecting this data from its graduates and encouraging them to be honest, as a way to improve the camp’s offerings and raise its profile and credibility in its local business community. Placement rates, cost and location would all be deciding factors for me, but you are a different person. Best of luck. Please let us know how you made your decision, and what you decided to do.

    2. Reba*

      Is the bootcamp in the city where you want to job search? The relocating is the thing that seems to be adding risk to this plan, to my view. Is the bootcamp well-known or prestigious enough to make relocating worth it?

      Not direct experience, but a buddy of mine did transition into UX design from being an artist-professor. He was already handy with code but not in ways that were particularly relevant (like physical computing), so he did a bootcamp of some kind. Sorry, I don’t know the name of the program. He is still happily employed!

      Good luck!

  57. AMT*

    This question is for the healthcare professionals/social workers/therapists/etc. out there, particularly in NYC. Is it normal for healthcare environments to be so rigid? I’ve had a tough time transitioning from nonprofits to to a hospital setting. Previous work environments (even 0ther union shops) have been so much more flexible on things like time and leave. In my current hospital workplace and my last one, though, it’s an automatic reprimand if you clock in a minute late or use too many sick days in a given period. Things like bereavement leave, flex time (nonexistent), and comp time are handled in a way that strikes me as needlessly micromanaging, even when being flexible wouldn’t affect the day-to-day-work, or would actually improve coverage. Vacation days are doled out using a rigid, nonsensical system that has nothing to do with actual coverage needed in a particular area. They pay little attention to actual work performance. The union has been helpful with the policies that break contract rules, but can’t do much about things that aren’t in the contract — which adds to the whole rigidity thing.

    Anyone work in a more flexible healthcare environment? A hospital with sane policies? I would love to put in a year here and find a better facility, but I’m worried it’s like this everywhere. The pay is good but the administration is terrible. I’m a licensed professionals with a graduate degree and my (very skilled, high-performing) coworkers and I are constantly being treated like 16-year-old snack stand employees.

    1. anon for this*

      In my experience, hospitals are pretty rigid across the board. If you’re looking for something closer to the nonprofit world, I’d look at college counseling centers, but your pay will take a hit. Good luck!

      1. AMT*

        That’s exactly what I’m worried about, sadly! I could pretty easily get a job at an outpatient clinic (and have had several offers in the last year or so), but I’d take a $15-20k hit and lose the union benefits. For $20k a year, I might as well drown my culture fit sorrows in margaritas on vacation somewhere nice.

    2. Landlocked Thalassophile*

      Yes, hospitals do tend to be very rigid. The same policies apply across the board, from the dishwashers in the cafeteria to the pharmacist to the security officers to the nurses. It can get very frustrating! I don’t do direct patient care at all, and every five years I have to attend a full day seminar on how to safely move a patient from a bed to a wheelchair without hurting my back. Been employed there 15 years and have yet to even go into a patient room in the course of my job, much less have to move a patient. But ALL employees have to take that training.
      And I think it would not go over well if there were tiered systems with different policies, where some employees got away with clocking in late and others did not. Maybe it doesn’t affect the day-to-day in YOUR department, but in others it probably does.
      The super close attention to detail and everything-must-be-charted-because-lawsuits culture of heath care probably contributes, too.

      1. AMT*

        Yeah, I realize that a lot of this is due to safety and legal stuff. With time off, my concern was more with the fact that vacation day rules aren’t responsive to actual coverage. Social workers *used* to be able to coordinate their days off with the other staff in their individual units so that no one got too swamped. Then a senior social worker complained that some junior social worker in a totally different unit got a day that she wanted. Now there’s a rule that no more than 3 social worker in the entire hospital can be off at the same time. This means that, technically, my entire unit could take a week off if no other social workers wanted the days — even though it would throw everything into chaos because no one has the training to cover our unit — but God forbid I want to take a day off at the same time as someone in a totally different part of the hospital. Basically, none of the higher-ups like flexibility — there’s got to be some “rule” about every little thing because management doesn’t want to manage.

    3. The OG Anonsie*

      This has always been my experience in hospitals, and it’s why I decided to change careers and get the entire hell away from them.

    4. Book Lover*

      Generally, I need to arrange time off about 4-6 months in advance, and there are limits to how many people can be off at a time. If I am sick, I call out, but too many sick days result in needing to see occupational medicine to figure out why that is happening. There is no flex time, and comp time is not relevant to my particular practice. Healthcare environments are typically set up with the needs of the patients being the priority, rather than flexibility for workers. So, in other words, other than the clocking in, what you are finding seems pretty standard.

  58. CBH*

    Hi All
    I graduated college 15+ years ago. A family friend offered me a side job when I graduated. “Jake” was not the most organized person. This job involved me helping out a few times a month organizing his office and also working in the business which was indirectly related to my field. Even now years later, even though I’ve outgrown the job it was some nice pocket money on the side. Despite Jake having the reputation of getting his money’s worth, he always treated me professionally. He’s someone you want to keep on your toes. I don’t want to say watch your back but Jake’s opinion is business is business, friends are friends. Jake is good friends with my parents and has been extremely helpful to me and my husband with contacts and business questions.

    Jake recently retired and sold his business. A few of his clients asked me to help them out while searching for a new representative. Jake agreed to mentor me on the areas of the business I was not familiar with. We had a “disagreement” about my last paycheck from Jake since I was his employee one day and had my own business the next. I asked other mentors about this situation hypothetically and their responses were 50/50. It became a situation of you say potaTOE, I say poTAHto. I took the hit financially given that all Jake has done for my family and the fact that I still needed Jake’s mentoring and business advice in the future. I felt like I was (pardon my language) screwed in the deal and lost a lot of money because of it, but it is what it is.

    Before you ask we had nothing in writing during this transition. I always viewed this as a side job helping a friend and it took a while for me realize that I actually am “the boss” now
    .
    So year end is approaching. I would like to get my contacts a small something. My husband and I originally planned on getting Jake a gift certificate to a resturaunt he likes, but now I’m not so sure. On one hand, in my opinion, I lost hundreds of dollars. On the other Jake is a family friend who has been a wealth of information to me now and in the future. If I had to go outside of Jake for opinions, it would of cost me thousands of dollars. What you everyone else do.

    1. Anion*

      I’d give a really nice gift, and a letter thanking Jake for all he’d taught me and done for me. I know money is important, but it isn’t everything, and it sounds like there was a genuine disagreement/misunderstanding, not like Jake thought at the end there, “Ah, this is my chance to screw CBH! FINALLY!”

      He’s done a ton for you, by your own admission, opened doors for you that you might never have been able to open yourself, and now you have your own business. He’s mentored you for years. IMO you should focus on that and let one misunderstanding go, even if it cost you some money (which I understand the importance of, trust me, we don’t have anywhere near a lot of money ourselves…but I still think some things are more important).

      JMO, of course.

      1. CBH*

        I do think I am going to go for the gift certificate. Part of me was asking on AAM was to make sure I was doing the right thing despite it all. I don’t deny anything you say. Money is not everything and I am trying to build a business (my second one!). I agree that I owe A LOT to Jake. I guess I was just hurt when it all happened, as such a situation never crossed my mind. I’m also looking at it as a learning experience and it has helped me in figuring out future guidelines for both my businesses and my husband.

        Anion thank you for your reply and getting back to me.

        1. Anion*

          Oh, I can totally, totally understand you being hurt! I’m sorry I didn’t mention it in my reply. I’d be hurt, too, maybe even feeling a bit betrayed; I imagine it feels like he didn’t value you as much as you thought/hoped or as much as you valued him, even, and I get the sense that he was something of a mentor/father-type figure so that can be especially painful (forgive me if I’m wrong/misreading your post). But you said Jake is one of those, “Money and business are money and business; friendship and feelings are something entirely different,” types of people–the types of people who can completely separate their emotions from their finances, and put “business first” no matter what. I’ve known people like that myself, and they’re absolutely shocked when you mention that to some people money means more than that.

          I suspect he sees what happened as purely a business issue that has no bearing on your relationship with him at all. If I were you I’d try very hard to look at it the same way–not because any other way is wrong or you’re wrong to feel the way you do, but because I try to focus on the positive for my own well-being, and feel better myself when I’m able to do so (which is not all the time, heh, but I do try).

          If Jake didn’t care about you he wouldn’t have kept you around and taught you so much. That’s where I’d put my focus.

    2. TCO*

      Is there any kind of charitable donation (even, for instance, to a scholarship fund for your industry org) that Jake would find meaningful? If you donated in his name as your gift, maybe you’d feel a little better about spending the money. (This wouldn’t work for everyone–don’t do it if you know it would rub Jake the wrong way.)

      1. CBH*

        To be honest Jake supports a lot of charities dear to his heart. In addition Jake is involved in a lot of organizations and many charities where his participation is more than a monetary donation. For example he is on the board for an international charity helping the US and abroad. On his own dime he donates to this cause and is constantly having to physically go places to put out fires and reorganize things for the charity…. and that’s just 1 charity. He has other businesses where he is a silent partner, other charities and clubs/ organizations that peak his interests.

        Part of why I was going to do the resturaunt gift certificate is that he is a man that even in retirement both him and his wife never slow down. He mentioned a few weeks ago that it’s been a while since they had a nice leisurely meal.

        I do want to point out after rereading my post. I’m not angry at Jake, I just was so shocked by the situation and how it was handled. Financially it’s a lesson in life and as Anion said it truly was a misunderstanding.

        1. Specialk9*

          Are you sure you’re not angry at Jake? I would be. It sounds like you may at least be hurt by Jake’s actions. I only ask because my sister tends not to let herself have feelings, especially in business, but then gets ambushed suddenly. Emotions just are, and it seems like Jake is simultaneously a decent person who’s helped you, and someone who was callous about your losing money because of him. So if you have feelings, that’s ok.

          To the question, should you buy him a gift. Yes. That’s separate from the feeling question, that’s good business.

          1. CBH*

            You nailed it exactly. I’m hurt but not angry at Jake. Looking at the bigger picture I realize it’s just a lesson in the normal course of business. Yes I do plan on getting a gift for all he has done for me.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Right on. I have a friend who helps me with my house. Some days I felt he made out a little too well money wise on a project. then there were other days where I know for a fact that I underpaid him.

              Looking at this as an ongoing story will really help you. I felt that my friend had to have some wins also or else what is the point of him helping me? He can’t underprice everything. If he does he will probably stop helping me. If I look at any given situation I will have questions/concerns. If I look at the overall and the many problems he has fixed, I am not worried in the least.

  59. PinkElephant*

    How much overtime should I work after giving my two weeks notice?

    I recently gave my two weeks notice at a company where we work about 60-80 hours for 7 months out of the year. We are currently in this busy time and I recently gave my two weeks notice.

    During these last two weeks I am still working 10-11 hrs a day (50-55 hours a week), but my employer keeps pressuring me to also come in on the 2 weekends I have left. I’ve been working about 65 hours for about 6 weeks and want to go back to a “normal” work schedule so I can start my new job refreshed. My manager asked me to work until the 15th (a Sunday). I explained my first day is the 16th and I need to make my last day the 12th so I can recharge before starting my new job. I do feel bad about leaving at this time, but the reason we work so many hours during this time is because of poor management. I am doing the best I can without working weekends as I need time to recharge and don’t want to start my new job mentally exhausted. Should I still come in on the weekends? I don’t want to have a bad reference from them. I’ve heard talk around the office that they are bringing it up to other coworkers. My other coworkers have advised me not to come in on the weekend because management here takes advantage of the employees. They do not work as much as we do.

    Thanks and sorry for the long rant!

    1. AdAgencyChick*

      HOLD FIRM AND DO NOT GIVE REASONS. Practice your best Miss Manners-style “that will not be possible.”

      If you give reasons, your boss will try to argue you out of them. The unspoken reason of “what are you going to do, fire me?” is more than enough.

      This sort of thing happens in advertising — not all the time, but enough. It’s obnoxious. I think you probably need to work more than 4o hours a week till the end so that your boss can’t say “she totally checked out her last two weeks” when asked for a reference down the line. But I would say 50 hours, not 65, and certainly not weekends.

      It’s probably too late now, but in your shoes I’d have negotiated a start date of a week later with the new job. Not so you could work the weekend for your current place, but so you can take a detox week in between.

      1. PinkElephant*

        Yes that was my plan, but they took about a week to clear the background/drug test and I was advised not to give notice until everything clears. That would have put my start date about 5 weeks after the initial interview (4 weeks after the offer). For future reference, is this okay?

        1. AdAgencyChick*

          Yes, absolutely! You can say you’d like to start 3 weeks from the date you give notice and I can’t imagine most hiring managers would bat an eyelash.

        2. Susan K*

          Yes, that’s very normal! My background check and drug test results took a lot longer than they originally said, so I asked to push back my start date by two weeks and they were totally fine with it. There might be cases where the new job is in a hurry for you to start, but it shouldn’t hurt to ask.

      2. Snark*

        All of this. You are not obligated to work ridiculous overtime or weekend days in your notice period.

    2. LCL*

      How much overtime do you want to work? In your post you say basically none. And you already have another job lined up.
      If the answer is none, just say ‘sorry I can’t’. Be prepared for them to tell you if you feel that way to just go now. I had a job do that to me once, I had been hired to start my other job in 2 weeks. So I said OK bye and enjoyed my two weeks vacation at Christmas. It was glorious.

      1. PinkElephant*

        I am working about 55 hours still, so still quite a bit. I’m also salary so I don’t get paid extra. I am working to complete all the work that has already been assigned to me, but they want to assign more work.

        2. AdAgencyChick*

          Keep the convo to “these three things are what I can accomplish in my remaining time.” If someone wants to add another project to your plate, “Okay, which of X, Y, and Z should I drop in order to do that?” If you get a “You need to do all of it,” you can say, “I’ll do as much as I can, and I plan to prioritize it in the order of X, Y, Z, then A. But I can’t promise I’ll have all of it finished before I leave.”

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      You need to raise your elegant eyebrows, say ‘Oh, I can’t deal with that,’ and not only don’t work weekends, but quit working unpaid overtime. What are they going to do? You have the power to push back and get some rest for your new job. Yay for the new job!

    4. Student*

      None. You work overtime (assuming exempt) to impress a boss or get things done so that you can earn promotions and the like, and eventually earn more money. You won’t be working there any more, so there is no reason for you to put in extra effort, to go above and beyond. You won’t ever get more money from them. It won’t improve your references from them. No reasonable person will expect you to do it, though some will ask because they want to guilt as much work out of you as possible.

      If non-exempt, then work as many overtime hours as you want to earn more money.

      1. zora*

        Yeah, and if they are pissed, what is their bad reference going to be? “She refused to come in weekends and work extra overtime at the end of her notice period.” That sounds insane, and any reasonable new employer is going to dismiss them as crazypants.

    5. Specialk9*

      None. Work 40 hour weeks, no weekends. Them giving you extra work after you give notice is, well, obviously effective, but it’s brass balls territory. Don’t reward it.

  60. Seal*

    Question for the collective. I recently applied for a job that would essentially be a lateral transfer and have a phone interview coming up. As I work in a relatively small niche in my profession, I’m fairly confident that not many people applied and that I have a good chance of moving forward in the interview process. However, this same organization just posted an administrative position that is more in line with my career goals and would be a step up for me; the position I have the phone interview for would report to the administrative position. Based on the job description, I have the experience and qualifications necessary to be a good candidate the administrative position as well. So I’m trying to decide how to proceed. Should I apply for this new position and withdraw my application from the original position? Proceed with the phone interview and go from there? Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Rainbow Hair Chick*

      I would proceed with the phone interview for sure. I’d also apply for the job you actually want too. It shows you have a great interest in working for the company. I’d mention in the phone interview that you have also applied for “X” position too as it fits your skill set as well.

      1. clow*

        I second this. I have actually done this before and was interviewed for both positions. I ended up being asked by HR which I would prefer because both departments were interested in extending an offer. Good luck!

  61. Just Wondering*

    Can you be a judge without being a lawyer in the US? Would you just run for a judge seat?

    1. MoinMoin*

      I believe it depends on the local/state regulations, and some may require that you still have a law degree. I think it’s really too varied across the US to give a general answer, but certainly someone more knowledgeable will speak up if I’m incorrect.

    3. chickadee*

      It varies highly by state, and if it is allowed, it is typically for low level magisterial-type positions (Montana’s Justices of the Peace that hear misdemeanor criminal cases, for example, or the judges of the former Philadelphia Traffic Court). Offhand, I know there are some in Texas and New York as well. Typically there is some kind of training or certification required, but it’s in the neighborhood of hours rather than years of study.

      Most states don’t have elections for judges either, only 20 elect trial-level judges and only 8 of those elect appellate-level judges.

      1. Just Wondering*

        Cool, thanks for the info! I recall the last time I voted that I had to pick or approve judges??? I’ll look into it more as I might definitely be wrong. I live in a large County in a populous state, so all our judges have been lawyers for a minimum of 20 years it seems.

        1. Anon for this*

          I live in West Virginia. Candidates need to have practiced the law for ten years or so and meet a few other residency requirements, but they are elected by average everyday voters. The elections even used to be partisan, they changed to non-partusan in 2025 or so. Thus us for Supreme Court and circuit court judges. For magistrate style judges there are elections as well, with the qualifications bar being much lower. So there are definitely states where judges are elected, though the requirements on bring a lawyer vary.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      In NY local level judges do not have to have a law degree. And many do not. I think county level and up have more stringent requirements.

  62. Friday Night*

    Not a comment – just a vent. I had a gong show of a day-long interview this week. I feel like it went as badly as it possibly could have given that I was prepared and that no one actually had it out for me

    For starters they offered me an interview but only gave me 4-10 days lead time and they asked me to prepare 2 x 1 hour presentations as part of the process. The presentations are normal for my field, but as a result we usually get at least a month of notice.

    Day of the interview, the chair of the search committee was unexpectedly absent – the chair was a mile away waiting for a phone repair. I ended up starting my 1st presentation 1/2 an hour late when we realized he wasn’t going to make it, and they recorded it so he could watch it later. I did have a lovely interview/discussion with a man who is a big name in my field who kept me company until the chair showed up. All of my other interview panels went well but when it came time for my second presentation – a chunk of it was taken up with the chair arguing with one of my other interviewers about how to ask me questions. Then after the presentation as we walked to dinner, the two of them proceeded to yell at each other as they walked behind the main group – not quite out of ear shot.

    Now, neither of these people would actually be my boss if I worked there, but they would be senior… and man I’ve just realized that I met maybe 30 people during my interview, and the only woman I met was the administrative assistant.

    1. A girl has no name*

      Get out, get out now! Clearly they don’t have their stuff together (haven’t even decided how to interview before starting), don’t conform to industry norms (tiny window to prepare for those presentations), and are probably a toxic work environment (two senior staff members yelling at each other in public, in front of a potential new employer). The other stuff could be overlooked if the job/benefits/location/etc is otherwise excellent and you really want it…but those two yelling at each other is something I wouldn’t overlook as I doubt it was a one-time thing and will probably make your life miserable.

    2. medium of ballpoint*

      Listen to your instincts! If people can’t keep themselves together for the single day they’re interacting with you, that doesn’t bode well for what it’ll be like to work there day to day.

      (Relatedly, I think I posted here once about how it would be so nice to be able to walk away from a long interview like this. I’ve had some pretty ridiculous interviews and it’s so demoralizing knowing at hour two that you’d rather work for Satan himself than take this job, but you still have 8+ hours to go. Oof.)

    3. consultant*

      Is it consulting?

      I just finished looking for a job and had maybe 10 interviews with consulting companies in the process. Met about 30 consultants. Two of them were women (as my would-be peers, not bosses).

      The field is full of sexism unfortunately.

      1. Friday Night*

        Being the principle investigator of a lab – so academics, but it’s a pretty technical sub-specialty.

  63. Anon For This Of Course*

    I have a crush on my boss, which is bad enough. The kicker? We’re both women, and both in straight relationships. I know it’s terrible, but I can’t stop thinking about her. Any advice for how to get my brain to cut it out, or thoughts from folks who have gone through something similar before would be welcomed. Thanks, all.

    1. Elfie*

      I’m a woman, and I’ve only ever had one work crush that was also on a woman (fortunately not my boss!). I treated it like I treated all my crushes – great for fantasy fodder, but only because it is fantasy. I’ve been involved with someone I worked with before, and it didn’t end particularly well, so although I might fantasise about them, I definitely wouldn’t want to take it into reality territory. Most of my crushes don’t last all that long (some have lasted months, one lasted the entire time I spent at a job). If you’re in a relationship and you’re generally happy with your relationship (so the crush isn’t signifying anything that’s wrong, which can sometimes be the case), I’d just ride it out. Enjoy the fantasy in your own time, but try extra hard not to bring it into the office in any way. But that’s only my opinion.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +1

        I also recommend you do NOT friend/follow her on various social media (it’s too easy to start watching them a bit too closely). I had a long-lasting crush on a coworker I didn’t see very often and we were briefly FB friends and I was a bit too interested in their life, haha, whoops.

        Bonus: Captain Awkward is a good advice resource of awkward-feelings. I don’t know if this exact thing has come up, but she has a lot “getting over people” and “treat/forgive yourself” tips!

        1. Valkyrie*

          +1000 for the CA recommendation; I think there was a letter about this relatively recently!

    2. medium of ballpoint*

      One thing I’d recommend is talking to friends about this and getting support, particularly if you’re in a relationship. Something similar is happening to Coworker Friend and I know she feels better knowing that we’re looped in and can help her be accountable and ensure her work behavior is appropriate.

      I’d also encourage you not to pick up these thoughts and play with them every time they occur. “Yup, okay, there’s that thought about Boss again. Let’s get my focus back on what I was doing” is a helpful strategy. The more you engage with these thoughts the more weight they carry in your own mind, the more they crowd out other thoughts, and the more they start to feel like they’re taking over everything and turning this into A Very Big Deal. Identify the thought, let it go, and get back to what you were doing.

      Good luck!

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh gosh no, don’t tell friends you have a crush on your boss! Ack! No, that will get out so fast.

        2 people can keep a secret, so long as 1 on them is dead.

        1. Natalie*

          I think non-coworker friends would be fine / low risk. I mean, isn’t that part of the reason we have friends, so we don’t have to go through everything alone?

    3. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Are you sure it’s a crush in the romantic sense or do you just really admire her?

      1. Anion*

        Yes. I often liken forming a new friendship or work relationship with someone to falling in love–you have those moments of excitement when you find out new things about a person, you look forward to seeing them, you hope for their attention, you think about them and what you’ll say when you see them, you wonder if they like you as much as you like them, you want to know if they think about you, you admire them in many ways…you start wanting to spend more and more time with them and they become increasingly important.

        Those feelings are often romantic-feeling in nature or similar to romantic feelings, but not necessarily sexual (although they can easily be confused). It’s very easy for a person to mistake their “Gosh, Becky is so great, I wonder if she likes me, too?” for feeling romantic about Becky.

        (Lol, I once chased away a new friend by saying I thought forming a new friendship was like falling in love; she apparently thought I was coming on to her.)

        Of course, that being said, straight people do sometimes form crushes on same-sex people that are distinct romantic crushes, too. It happens. It’s not a big deal. We can’t control who we’re attracted to, even if it’s someone we normally wouldn’t be.

        1. Specialk9*

          I mean, yeah, but you’re not straight then. (Most of us aren’t.) I find the Kinsey Scale useful – all gay, all straight, and several shades of in between. Though it’s a simplification of complexity too.

          1. Fiennes*

            I don’t know that I agree a same-sex crush makes you “not straight.” It’s possible for crushes to feel romantic but not sexual; it’s also possible to feel theoretical attraction that wouldn’t carry over into the real world.

            Tl;dr – let’s just let everyone define their own preferences.

    4. Stop That Goat*

      Unfortunately, if it is a crush, I’m not sure there’s much you can do but ride it out. It will pass with some time.

        1. Stop That Goat*

          It’s tough! I had a (thankfully) short lived crush on the straight married guy that I had to share an office with. I didn’t have the boss dynamic involved but I had to be around him every day, all day. It was REALLY distracting.

          1. Specialk9*

            I often get crushes on bosses I really admire. It’s no big deal, you just watch your language and body language, and hold the metaphorical reins on yourself just a touch tighter than usual.

  64. A girl has no name*

    I’ve been very frustrated lately with my job search because I feel like I no longer have any good options for references. I have one good reference I trust from a long-term job, but it has been several years since I worked with them. My other two main references are more recent, but even though they’ve happily agreed to serve as references, I get this feeling that they aren’t portraying me in a light that matches what I’ve put on my resume because I have pretty good reason to think that they and their staff have taken credit for some of my work since I left. This leaves me in a lurch, because without those two as references I only have a few options and they are just part-time customer service jobs that have nothing to do with my field. They are good for talking about my character and work ethic, but it just looks like I am hiding something if I don’t provide references from those recent positions that are directly related to what I am applying for.

    1. Dovahkiin*

      Have you felt like you had the job after the final interview only to lose it after the reference checks?

      It might help to give your references your resume and just say something like “Thank you so much for agreeing to be a reference. I’ve attached my updated resume and I’m sure that Job X will be looking for things like A, B, and C from you.”

      1. Definitely NOT a T-Rex*

        I like this.

        Also, as much as this would suck (though I do not know your industry norms), it may be worth considering freelance/short-term/contract opportunities if you try Dovahkiin’s suggestion and still aren’t getting anywhere. Someone close to me had sent out ~400 applications before landing his first great job. Before that his most successful job search story was landing a one-year contract, but through that experience he was able to impress the people he worked with and they, in turn, were able to serve as positive, fresher, and more relevant references for him. Two applications after switching up who his references were, he landed that great job.

        Good luck!

    2. Melody Pond*

      Sorry, I know this is off-topic, but I happen to be watching season 6 of Game of Thrones right now, and I just had to say how much I love your handle and how much delight I experienced upon seeing it. :)

  65. Chilladelphia215*

    LinkedIn: in some cases, can it hurt more than it helps?

    I have experience in two different fields (human resources, and social services). I am hesitant to create a LinkedIn profile because I feel it may undermine my attempt to market myself as a good fit for each field. Currently, I’m unemployed, so my focus is on getting a job ASAP. My preference is social services, but I am also open to human resource assistant positions as well since I have experience in this area (the basic office administration side of human resources. Unfortunately, I do not have experience as an HR specialist). Whenever I apply for a human resources job, I carefully craft my resume to downplay my experience in social services and focus on my qualifications for human resources – and vice versa, for when I’m applying for social service positions. Since most hiring managers want to know where I can see myself in 5 years, I BS my way into saying “I’d really like to grow in X role and stay in the field of {human resources or social services}.” I am worried that if I create a LinkedIn profile, it will make me seem like too much of a dabbler. After all, I don’t want to make it sound like I am open to a job in social services OR human resources, since that contradicts what I am telling hiring managers. Does anyone have advice for how to handle this, if I do decide to create a LinkedIn profile? Or is it better off that I just avoid LinkedIn entirely given my situation?

    1. JulieBulie*

      I have a friend who created two different LinkedIn profiles for a similar reason. (You can put the URL of the one you prefer on your resume.) I’m not sure if this is logistically straightforward or even if it does any good, but it is one way of getting around the problem if the LinkedIn profile you have doesn’t say what you want it to say to some people.

      However, since you apparently don’t have a linkedin profile yet and have been getting along just fine without one, you really don’t need to create one for this job search.

    2. consultant*

      I was in a similar situation to yours and had the impression my profile on linkedin was actually undermining my chances. If I were you I wouldn’t create one for now.

      I currently have one, since my profile got clearer now and I know in what direction I want to go, but I still avoid adding details that can limit my flexibility when job searching.

  66. WannabeProf*

    Any advice on applying to faculty positions at a university, when you don’t have any formal teaching experience yet?

    My plan was to apply to adjunct at a local community college first, after I finished my master’s, but a position is currently open at my undergraduate uni in the exact field I want to teach. I want to go ahead and apply, in the hopes that maybe my education and publishing credits might make them consider me. I know it’s a long-shot, but I don’t want this opportunity to pass, without me at least trying.

    So, advice, tips, anything, about moving to academia?

    I do currently work in higher ed, but on the staff side — advising — so I do work with students on a daily basis, but not as a professor.

    1. Helpful*

      It’s a long shot, since there is such a glut of Master’s and Ph.D. students w/o tenure track jobs. Perhaps apply to local community colleges to try to get some teaching experience under your belt.

    2. deesse877*

      First, what you need to be able to do to adjunct is hit the ground running. Could you write a whole semester’s syllabus (and possibly choose textbooks) for the classes they have available within a matter of hours? Could you plan two weeks’ worth of classes, including many non-lecture in-class activities that clearly fulfill defined educational goals, without asking for advice? If yes, you are employable as an adjunct. This is true even if you know for a fact that they will require you to use a preset curriculum, because what it’s about is keeping all the wheels turning smoothly. Relatedly, advising would probably not strike some adjunct-hirers as relevant experience, because it’s not about imparting mastery of skills or information.

      Second, I was recently tangentially involved with hiring in an academic department, and I was frankly shocked at how poor most applications completed by people holding Masters’ degrees were. Academic applications are really, really different from regular ones (which you almost certainly know already) but it seemed apparent that most people in that pool did not achieve a full understanding of the conventions if they hadn’t done a Ph.D. To be clear, I mean basic things like including all required materials, not including random stuff, and writing the cover letter in an appropriate voice. I can’t know for certain, but it looked like a lot of people thought mandatory things were optional, and/or that creativity and personality (and guilt trips!) were good. Nope.

      Finally, don’t be an adjunct at all unless you are in a field where you are able to command a living wage, or plan to do it merely as a hobby or form of professional service. It is definitely NOT a path to permanent employment in most institutions.

      1. WannabeProf*

        Yes, I’ve been doing a lot of research on academic applications, especially the academic CV, which I’m learning is vastly different from a resume.

        Your thoughts are very helpful, thanks!

      2. Artemesia*

        I agree. Being an adjunct is likely to hurt chances for permanent employment but then permanent college faculty jobs usually go to PhDs of whom there are way too many. I am surprised any college is even considering masters degree applicants for faculty positions. (with the exceptions of MFAs in the arts or MBAs in business and even in those fields doctorates are becoming important.)

      3. Traveling Teacher*

        +1000 for all of this! As a former adjunct, you have to be willing to get by with a minimum of hand-holding and a lot of creativity. For many of my former positions, I was simply given a short, bullet point list of things that should be addressed during the semester. No budget for textbooks, I had to come up with materials myself. (These were not US positions!) I ran things by my boss and other colleagues to get a sense of whether or not I was going in the right direction, but that was about it. I did have a truly excellent boss who went to bat for us, but she didn’t have a lot of power, compared to the other, independently funded scientific departments…

        They were really fun classes to teach, but they were also the most exhausting jobs I’ve ever had, and I started to develop a couple of serious health issues as a result. When I worked out the hourly salary, I was basically making 4 euros/hour with no hope of a raise (we were only paid for 30mins prep time per class per week, which is…laughable, at best). If I would have stayed in longer, I could have probably made it into an 8-12 euro an hour job because I would not have been writing all curriculum, lessons, and tests from scratch…but even at that point, as an MFA, you’re still probably better off getting a job as a barista and using your free time to write the next great novel, teaching just one class/semester to keep your hand in! ;)

    3. HigherEdPhD*

      Is this position in the U.S.? If so, most faculty job postings have minimum degree requirements that are listed on the posting. You currently have a bachelor’s degree, which is the U.S. wouldn’t qualify you to hold a faculty position at most four-year degree granting institutions. For most faculty positions you will need the terminal degree in your field, if the master’s degree is that degree (e.g. MFA) and you are scheduled to graduate in May, you can apply for the position. If the terminal degree is a PhD, then you should not waste your time applying as you are woefully under qualified.

      Staff advising and faculty work are two entirely different fields. While there are many transferrable skills, you will need to highlight how you can be an effective faculty member with your background.

      If the position is outside the U.S., ignore my comments!

    4. GT*

      There’s no harm in applying. A lot of these jobs are about connections, once everyone has reached the bare minimum in qualifications. Can you reach out to someone in the department where you want to teach to talk with them informally?

    5. AnonAcademic*

      Others have addressed the qualification issue, but I have a different question: how do you know you want to teach undergraduates if you’ve never done it before? I’ve done it a lot, and am quite good at it, but it is EXHAUSTING and I couldn’t do it full time. I’ve mentored people who have the same experience with research – it sounds great till they’re doing it and then they realize they hate the day to day responsibilities. If I were on a search committee it would take some serious convincing to hire someone green because they think they’ll like it. Also most faculty jobs require a teaching statement that is basically your teaching style and philosophy. It’s a really hard thing to with experience, never mind speculatively.

      That said, the worst thing that happens is you are turned down for lack of experience, so if you have the time to invest in prepping your materials it’s up to you if that opportunity cost is worth it.

  68. PM-NYC*

    Any tips for staying focused & motivated while job searching?

    I was laid off in August from a job that was not a good fit but I’ve been finding it hard to be diligent with the job search now that my days have no structure.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Would changing physical location help? Deciding, for example, that a coffee shop is now your workplace (your work being “Find a job”) instead of being at home on your couch or bed “finding a job”? Sometimes compartmentalizing can help: from 8am to noon, I’m going to go to the coffee shop and do only job-search-related things. After noon, I’m going to go home and do leisurely things.

    2. Murphy*

      The last time I was job searching, I scheduled specific days/times for myself to do it. I agree with AE that a change of location along with this could help.

    3. PM-NYC*

      These are good suggestions, thanks! I think part of the issue is I feel like I have to spend 8 hours a day, every day, job searching, which maybe isn’t realistic.

      1. Trout 'Waver*

        Maybe at first. But once you’re on to the stage where you’re only looking at new, relevant postings, there are some serious diminishing returns after the first hour you put in each day job hunting.

    4. Linden*

      I have been applying to jobs for about a year now (though I was a full-time student through May, so it’s only been about 4 months of no structure). I have five tips, based on what worked for me (so feel free to take them if they’re helpful and leave them if they’re not):

      1) break down your job applications into smaller tasks that you can complete in one sitting. For example, print off a checklist of tasks in which you have “thoroughly read job description, highlighting keywords to use in my application,” “adjust resume to job description,” “draft cover letter,” “revise cover letter,” “revise resume,” and “submit application online” as separate items. In my experience, I can’t complete an entire application in one sitting, so approaching that one big item on the to-do list is overwhelming. It also helps you feel more successful because even if you don’t get everything done on the to-do list, you can at least see progress, and that sense of progress can usually fuel more progress, since (in my experience) getting demoralized is one of the biggest hurdles to overcome in the job search.

      2) On that note, I would recommend adding some non-job-search-related items to your check list, and make them a habit (that is, make them the same items every day). The reason being that looking for a job can make you feel like crap, and if you’re like most people, it takes a huge amount of time and effort before you see any results, and I honestly don’t think humans (much less other animals) were made to be motivated that way. So I think you need something else to feel good about yourself for, something where you can see progress. I think this can be anything that is important to you, and where progress will make you feel good about yourself.

      In my case, the things I added to my checklist in addition to “apply to a job” were “write down three gratitudes,” “do something kind for someone else,” “read a chapter in the Bible,” “pray for at least three people other than myself,” and “exercise,” based on aspects of myself I wanted to work on. I made a short version of this list with just the tasks, and a version with blanks to fill in each day (like a blank to write down the type of exercise I did, the chapter I read, the position/organization I applied to, the things I was grateful for, etc.). This sort of simulated a worksheet and made it feel more worklike. I also liked that I could look back and see what I had accomplished. (It may seem silly, but the feelings of failure that tend to accompany unemployment can be debilitating, and I think anything to combat that helps.) Also, as you may have noticed, these are things that are free, get me out of my own head a bit, and are generally designed to put me in a positive mindset. You might not need this yet, but after a year of job searching, I definitely did! It’s rough out there.

      3) Make an appointment to see someone (job-related). A career counselor or coach (if your alma mater still offers this service to you, or for hire if you think it would be helpful), a recruiter, networking leads (informational interviews), whatever. This brings in an element of the structure having a job- a place to be at a certain time, someone to interact with professionally, getting dressed professionally, preparing for a meeting, following up, etc.- at the same time that it moves you forward in your job search.

      4) As others mentioned, a change of scenery! I love the outdoors, so I went to gardens and the grounds of historic houses (on days and times that entry was free) to work on my applications. It’s something I could never have done while employed, so I felt like I was really taking advantage of the situation while at the same increasing my productivity. It felt great to work in a beautiful environment. It was also helpful to have a break from internet distractions for a few hours. It also adds an element of structure once again- getting up, showering, getting dressed, and getting somewhere at a certain time.

      5) Assign one day each week to be your day off from the job search and stick to it-absolutely no working on the job search that day, not even a little. I know this sounds counterintuitive, but it helped me a lot. I made Sunday my day of rest and on Mondays I always felt so refreshed and ready to jump back in, and it also helped me to gain some perspective, better evaluate what I was doing, and just see things more clearly in general.

      Unemployment can be extremely demoralizing. Don’t get discouraged. Good luck!

      2. Traveling Teacher*

        Such great ideas! I love your worksheet and will be passing that idea on to an unemployed friend who is searching for ways to get more structure into her days.

        One thing I did while temporarily unemployed (every summer basically, due to short-term contracts :/) was to spend just a half hour per day working towards a personal project. For me, that was writing, but it could be anything that you enjoy that produces a result. It made me feel less guilt for taking time “off” from the job search to give it a start/stop time, and it was also a small, achievable goal!

  69. More anonymous than usual*

    So my boss has lately been in “you get a raise” mode, and I’ve gotten many unsolicited raises in the last few years (which I’m grateful for, believe me). Now I’m at the top of the range for my title, and boss wants to lobby to get me a new title, so I can get a higher range.

    The only issue (small issue, I know) is that boss wants my new title to be Teapot Data Analyst, which is a respectable title that does command some money, but it’s absolutely not at all what I do. I’m more like Teapot Engineer (also a respectable title that can command some money). I showed boss several people’s LinkedIn profiles with Teapot Data Analyst and others with Teapot Engineer and said I believe the latter fits more what I do, but I think boss is still going to go ahead and try to change my title to Teapot Data Analyst.

    Has anyone else had this happen to them? I don’t think it’s the end of the world (or my career), just odd.

    1. TCO*

      This is where the difference between “official title in the HR system” and “working title” can help you. Alison has some great posts on how to handle this on LinkedIn and resumes. It’s pretty common and could help make sure that the outside world still has an accurate understanding of what you do. It’s possible that your boss might even be okay with you continuing to use the Engineer title in your e-mail signature, etc. if their main goal is to get you into a new pay bracket and they don’t really care about the titles.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Unless you’re an in industry where titles really matter, like academia or law, it might be moot. In my field, Associate Technician and Senior Staff Scientist III could be doing the exact same work at different companies. In my field, hiring managers understand that and ignore titles almost completely, unless they’re familiar with how titles work at a particular company.

    3. More anonymous than usual*

      Thanks for the comments. I don’t think it’ll hurt my career if I ever look for another job (not planning to leave any time soon). Some of the stuff I do is niche enough that future employers would be looking for those keywords in the description and not the title. I just find it odd, that’s all.

  70. AdAgencyChick*

    Saying a great big “Bye, Felicia” to our awful account executive, who was fired earlier this week. I feel bad for her as a person, since she’s a single parent. But she was making all our lives miserable and I’m so relieved not to have to work with her any more.

  71. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

    An update!

    I’ve posted a couple of times (possibly anonymously? But now I’m done worrying about that.) about shenanigans with a promised promotion over the past year. (Short background: last summer I was recruited internally for a new role, which was a significant promotion and included a 30% raise. I took the job but the raise and title adjustment never came. I asked to be moved back to my old job, and over this summer I was waiting for formal offers from both my old boss and current boss so I could decide between them.)

    In early September, I got the offers. One from my current boss, with the promotion I was promised a year ago, and one from my old boss, who had created a new role to bring me back to my original team but offer (close to) the raise/promotion I was getting in the new department.

    I took the offer from my old boss! It goes into effect on Monday. I’m so excited — both by the recognition and money, but also by the opportunities that now exist in my old department. I’m sad to leave behind the work I started over the past year, but in the end I’m glad to be back doing the work that I originally came to this organization to do.

    (Also, the foster dog who has been ruining my life gets adopted today, so hurrah! It will be a weekend of celebration.)

  72. librarylady*

    I recently completed an application that required me to manually input my work history and to answer two questions specific to the job (~500 words each), among the other usual application sections, but did not ask for a resume or cover letter.

    I took this as a welcome reprieve from applications where I feel like I am providing the same information twice as a formality, but am now wondering if I should have submitted a resume and cover letter in their “supplemental documents” section, even though it was not required or mentioned. Thoughts?

    1. Chaordic One*

      Yes, I think you should have probably submitted a cover letter and resume in the “supplemental documents” section, but PLEASE don’t beat yourself up about it. The cover letter and resume provide a little extra something in your favor, but they’re not the be all, end all.

      I’ve gotten to the point that I just copy and paste the same information from my resume into the application where it calls for job description information, so I don’t think that repeating that information in a resume should make a big difference. Since you say that the application called for you to provide written responses to questions, your responses should demonstrate that you can write reasonably well (which is one of the main points of providing a cover letter).

      I hope you get an interview now. If so, you can tell us about it.

  73. NaoNao*

    I didn’t get it :(
    I’m pretty crushed, but this job would have been a relo, meaning I would have to be in an LDR for almost a year waiting for my dude to join.
    The team decided to go with someone who had a more technical background, which kind of raised a lot of fears for me.
    In the last couple years, I’ve made it to the final round in 2 prestigious, “stretch” jobs in global “glamour” companies, and both times, I got de-selected due to a missing puzzle piece of a technical background (ie, data science degree or extensive experience, engineering, math or comp sci degree or experience).
    This is a little bit frustrating because I’m not actually doing work in those fields, I’m an Instructional Designer, meaning I have to understand the material well enough to work with it, but I don’t have to teach it or be a SME in it.
    I’m now getting worried that I’ve reached a ceiling on my career path because my specialty is customer care and sales/collections/retention and in class training and to be frank, the salaries and positions for those opportunities are lower than what I’m comfortable with at this point, 8 years into my career.
    I *could* get a mini MA (a ‘nano’ degree) in data science, although my boss was like “You’d really have to sell me on it, as it’s not directly related to your current work”) for free at Current Job, but honestly….I’d have to break myself to gain the “technical background” these places seek and I simply don’t have the natural aptitude I would need to truly succeed. I’m not an engineer, scientist, coder, or IT specialist, or aeronautics person while we’re at it. I don’t specialize in Data Science or Analysis, and I have very limited experience in one small niche area of technical engineering stuff.
    I’m verge of panic here because I feel I’ve pigeonholed myself into a dying field or at best, a limited field in terms of growth, jobs, and salaries.
    Help?

    1. stej*

      What about Technical Product/Program Manager roles? Those straddle very nicely between the SMEs (technical folk) and customer communications. There are obliquely technical roles which wouldn’t require a DS degree or quantitative MS/PhD, and if they do at these “glamour” companies, you might consider the role at a slightly lower tier or start-up.

    2. px*

      I would also say it’s likely to be the fact that it’s glamour companies. Smaller companies are more likely to look at what you can/have achieved than a missing degree. I would say keep trying and good luck!

  74. NotAMagicMindReader*

    I started in my first office job in late April of this year. At first, it was great – I didn’t have to deal with customers/the public anymore, I didn’t have to wear a horribly ill-fitting and unflattering uniform anymore, I would finally be treated like an adult instead of a stupid child! Now, almost six months in, I really hate my job.

    I do time and attendance for an entertainment venue – scheduling employees, making sure their hours are in the computer, writing them up, etc. I dislike write-ups because it makes the employees angry with me and less likely to cooperate with what I need from them. I dislike scheduling as I need my boss’s approval, which sometimes takes as much as two days on a schedule that needs to be sent out in one day or less. I dislike having to personally ensure that everybody’s times are in the computer, as I get blamed when employees forget their swipe card and don’t email me, or when swipes go to the wrong day and don’t get corrected in time, or when they come in three hours early and nobody told me to adjust the scheduling so they could get paid for that entire time.

    Most of all, though, my bosses only give me approximately half of the information I need to complete a task, then get upset with me for not doing the parts of the task I wasn’t told about. I do everything I’m told to the best of my ability, but I’m not magic or a mind-reader! My schedule also winds up being in this pile; my boss who does the schedule frequently forgets about creating it or sends me a temporary file that expires by the time I attempt to access it, then never remembers to print me a copy or send me a permanent file!

    She also forgets or confuses about half of what we talk about – for next week, we agreed that, while there are no events, I should come in on Thursday and Friday for practical purposes. She emailed me that instead of Wednesday (???) and Friday, it’s now Monday and Friday just in case a rarely-occurring problem comes up that needs fixed, which only requires thirty seconds of work that she could do herself without having to stretch the budget and pay me for sitting around twiddling my thumbs. Thursday would be more practical – there are regularly-occurring, necessary things to do on Thursday, and if I don’t do them on Thursday, it creates problems and extra work for Friday.

    I don’t know what to do. Our busy season starts in three weeks, and I can’t leave until that’s over without royally screwing my bosses and definitely burning bridges. I have no experience relevant to any other office-based field. The company that owns the venue where I work also owns the venue where my mother works, so we technically work for the same company, and she sort of got me the job; it might reflect badly on her for me to leave so soon, so she regularly suggests that I apply to internal job openings so I can stay under the company umbrella.

    I just want to survive our two-month-long busy season with my sanity intact, then get the hell out of Dodge. Any advice on any of this would be massively helpful.

    1. Specialk9*

      That sounds really hard. I’ve never had such an awful office job. So you’re six months in. Yeah, look now, and take it if you get another job. They’re not paying you enough to deal with that kind of stress.

    2. Linden*

      Although this job might not be ideal, it offers a lot of opportunities for learning how to deal with people (aka developing your interpersonal and communications skills); I would look at it from that perspective. Those skills will be useful in any job you have in the future. I think each of these issues is very common in some version or another, albeit maybe not all at once or to the same extent- managers only give part of the information you need to do your job; employees get mad at you for enforcing the rules; you agree on one thing with your manager and then they seem to have amnesia about it a few days later. Here are my specific suggestions on each issue, though if I were you, I would think of it as an opportunity for some trial-and-error, a challenge to see how you can effect behavior-change in other people. 1) Say something to your manager like, “it really helps me to do my job when I know X, Y, and Z.” Also, don’t be afraid to ask questions for clarification when they’re giving you orders.
      2) I think here you just have to be firm, calmly and clearly stating to your co-workers that that’s the policy and it is your job to enforce it (or whatever). You might also try to be pro-active about it, giving the whole group a reminder about it at the beginning of the week or periodically, or asking your manager to highlight the importance of this the next time they talk to the group (or in an email to the group), if you don’t feel like you have that authority.
      3) After you talk to your manager, send a follow-up email saying something along the lines of “I just wanted to summarize what we discussed today [for reference/so I don’t forget/to make sure I have the details right]:” and summarize the key points of what you discussed (such as, “we agreed that it would be most practical for me to come in on Thursdays, because there are more regularly occurring, necessary things for me to do on Thursdays.”)

  75. FriendofaTG*

    Last year, on one of the open thread days, I brought up the issue of transgender people and when a job application asks for other names you’ve used (and more specifically in the context of when an employer would not need to know the name for any practical purpose by virtue of the age of transition/name change).

    A couple of months ago I had a talk via e-mail with the California DFEH on this subject, and here’s what they said (paraphrased): An employer can ask for other names you’ve used for a pragmatic purpose like to contact a reference/former employer, verify your credentials, check your criminal history, etc. They cannot ask for example out of curiosity or as an “honesty test” (at least when discrimination is at stake with disclosing a former name).

    This basically means that if the employer would truly have no practical reason to know your former name (e.g. all of your degrees/diplomas are under and all former employers asked for on your application know you by your current name, you have no criminal history whatsoever under your old name, etc.) then an employer cannot use such an omission as an excuse to discriminate against you. However, if withholding the former name prevents the employer from being made aware of information that would be a (legally) material factor in the employment decision, then they can not hire/fire you as they would with anyone else whose background check was compromised by not disclosing all the names that relevant records were under (even if the concealment wasn’t intentional). Unfortunately, for most transgender people who transitioned much past entering adulthood, they will not be able to completely satisfy the “no practical reason to know” requirement – but for the small but growing group who transition as children or teenagers and get their names legally changed before they establish any background-check-relevant records what Alison said at the link below would apply to them as well.
    https://www.askamanager.org/2013/03/short-answer-sunday-7-short-answers-to-7-short-questions-32.html

    This would of course directly apply only in California, but I imagine it’d be similar in most other states where gender identity is legally protected (and it’s being tested in the courts as to whether the federal law applies to transgender discrimination or not). Obviously it wouldn’t apply either in special cases like security clearances where questions that usual employers should not ask can legally appear.

    Just thought I’d share what I was informed of here.

    1. FriendofaTG*

      One more disclaimer: IANAL, but rather as my posting name suggests I just know of someone who is transgender and have tried to seek out information on various TG-related subjects on their behalf.

      1. FriendofaTG*

        If you don’t know what that abbreviation is, “I am not a lawyer” is what it stands for.

        1. JulieBulie*

          Sometimes people say “I am NAL” instead. It still may require explanation once in a while, but does not cause the double-take that IANAL sometimes does.

    2. FriendofaTG*

      I also thought I’d touch on what I mean by “when discrimination is at stake with disclosing a former name”: Since the issue here is discrimination when a former name itself is indicative of a protected status, it is unclear or not whether that guidance would still apply in cases like a last name associated with an ex or other family member you don’t like, you didn’t like what your parents named you, etc. and you omit the name just because you prefer to leave it behind (in contrast for example to a transgender person trying to keep the fact they’ve changed gender private if possible* or someone whose birth name is negatively suggestive of their race/religion/ethnicity/etc. and who changed it to avoid such discrimination). *Likewise a transgender person who is out by choice to their perspective employer may be an “exception to an exception” since there is no issue there of avoiding an unwanted outing, but rather merely not bringing up an old name with an unwanted association.

    4. FriendofaTG*

      Another ambiguity I didn’t catch until now: with “can not hire/fire you” the “not” goes with “hire” and not as “cannot” (meaning that you CAN be treated adversely in such a case).

    5. Specialk9*

      Good info. Here’s to a future where discrimination against trans and genderqueer people is a non issue.

  76. Admin Coaching*

    One of the admins that I work with needs coaching on small things that I’d hoped would be self-explanatory. For example: when entering new clients into the database, I need her to make an educated guess about whether an email address is a “work” email address or “home” email address – if the email address we have for Monica who works at Balthazar is monica@balthazar.com, you should enter that in the “work email” field, not the “home email” field.

    I’m not sure how to coach her about this. I can talk with her about each issue, but the overall problem is that I need her to make smart, well-informed choices about her work, and not need to be told how to handle every little detail.

    Important context: She is an experienced admin, although only a few months into her time with my organization. Her boss is an administrative supervisor, but she supports a number of different programs and works directly with the program staff for those areas. I’m program staff for one of the areas she supports. Our relationship is as peers; we’re not at all in the same hierarchy.

    Advice? Are my expectations reasonable? What conversation do I need to have with her?

    1. Specialk9*

      Make a list of endings that are usually personal vs professional. Someone who gets it wouldn’t need more than a 3-sec explanation. Someone who doesn’t get it would need a chart.

      1. Ramona Flowers*

        Is the issue not getting how to classify emails as work or home, or just not getting that you care about the categories being right?

    2. Her Grace*

      Sounds like she has issues recognising patterns. She may have a learning disability that prevents her from intuiting this.

      A few well-asked questions might help you get to the bottom of why she had issues with something you think is common sense: “I noticed you have issues with telling the difference between work and personal email addresses. Are you familiar with how domain names work?”

      This could be a case of her simply not knowing that certain things are governed by patterns and needs to be shown once how they work. Or there could be something deeper going on, including a learning disability, that makes it difficult for her to grasp what you think is something simple. If so, you might just have to give her example-by-example coaching.

  77. Dovahkiin*

    Question on Nonprofits:
    I’m a new board member and co-chair to a nonprofit that’s almost 20 years old. There have been some quirks that to me are red flags but I’d like to know if these ring alarms for anyone who works in the nonprofit industry (I come from private sector tech).

    1) Many of the budgets I’ve seen are simply copied from other organizations without any thought or effort to make sure that the budget actually works for our finances, income, and location. (The nonprofit is working with a consultant who provides these from the other nonprofits she consults with.)

    2) The accountant struggles to provide numbers and budgets for our events and simply says “I can make the numbers say whatever you want.” I think she genuinely thinks this is helpful, but I what I really want to know is “What is the budget pool for X, and can we afford Y?”

    3) They’re generally ok with the grey area of labor practices – classifying people as contractors when they qualify as temporary hires. They have a lawyer they consult with who has advised “Yes, this is an audit risk (but the org is small enough that it probably won’t be audited), and yes, this description should X because of reasons 1, 2, and 3 so this seems like a misclassification of an employee.” This doesn’t make anyone blink and they’re pretty content to keep on keeping on.

    4) There are basic logistical issues that are business as usual for them, like buying food for 100 people and booking an event space for 100 people but inviting 19,000 people (and not capping reservations). Again, they’re pretty unphased by this. Is this normal?

    These would be huge red flags in my professional world, but I’m wondering where I should set the bar for the nonprofit sector, where it seems (again, I’m new to this), that everyone kind of plays more fast and loose/seat of their pants.

    1. Ask a Manager* Post author

      #1 is a sign of serious incompetence.

      #2 If she means “I’ll make a budget that doesn’t reflect reality,” that’s a huge problem. But maybe she just means “the budget should reflect your priorities; let me know how you want to allocate money and I’ll draw up a budget that does that.” That’s how budgets should work, so that would be normal.

      #3 should be rare but isn’t.

      #4 is a sign of pretty major incompetence and isn’t normal.

      1. Dovahkiin*

        Thank you so much for replying! For #2 – it’s more like, when planning an event to celebrate successful lobbying for new legislation, I ask “What discretionary money do we have left that’s not allocated to programs in Q4?” and she says “I can make the numbers say whatever you want.”

        When I ask to see the budget for 2017 to find the answer for myself, she just says, “I can make it anything you want.”

        I went around her and asked some of the program managers straight-up, “How much money do you have to run your program?” and they just say that they get it from the accountant.

        It worries me that we might not able to prove to funders how we’re spending their money, particularly for grants for specific programs and initiatives. Plus when we have unexpected expenses (events, stuff for programs), I want to know if we’re taking money from a surplus, from other programs, from our 2018 budget, from operations, etc.

    2. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      Those are all bad practices for the nonprofit sector, too (except, maybe, inviting 19,000 to get 100 — they could very well know their list well enough to know that that ratio isn’t as intense as it sounds).

      The key question for you is how (and, it sounds like, if) they are protecting their board. Do they have directors & officers insurance? As a board member, you are (legally) responsible for the financial obligations of the organization; if they don’t have insurance to protect you I would get off the board, even if you want to stay involved to try to help them improve their practices.

      One note: Nonprofits are as diverse as businesses. Some are expertly managed and effective. Others are passion projects run by folks who are highly skilled at their mission work, but don’t know how to operate an organization (much like many small businesses started by entrepreneurs). Some are just crappy and should go out of business. You know better than we do which category yours is in!

      1. Dovahkiin*

        This is super helpful. I don’t know if they have insurance, but I am adding this to our next meeting asap. (Yikes! Genuinely didn’t know this was a thing – I’ve only served on a government board before this that was more advisory).

        Thanks so much for this advice.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Not trying to be scary, but make this a top priority to check on board member insurance.

        I have been serving on boards for 11 years now. I would not work on this board. They are not fiscally responsible in any way shape or form.

        You comment below that this is kind of scary, yeah. I would definitely be scared. You guys get audited and it is going to rain in your life.

      3. Dovahkiin*

        Thanks again – I just wanted to update you. I stepped down from the co-chair position but stayed on the board. I had a long talk with a mentor (who advocated that I step down from the board altogether) and realized that there are a lot of ways I can take an active role in this organization without taking on the risk of being a signatory (this was my compromise. I do love this organization). I’m just not comfortable with so much organizational insouciance towards budgeting/finances and changing it would be a huge cultural shift. They do a lot of good for my community, and I hope to amplify that work in a role with lower stakes.

    3. Cloud Nine Sandra*

      Oh no, no. No. The non-profit I worked for had many problems but they always took labor laws seriously, never played games with taxes, prepared their own budgets and no one ever said “I can make the numbers work however you want.” Not everyone in the non-profit plays fast and loose, I would frankly say not most.

      1. Dovahkiin*

        Thanks so much for your reply.

        I apologize for throwing the nonprofit sector under the bus with my fast and loose comment, that was a really poor generalization on my part. There are tons of great organizations out there, and it looks like mine is more on the disorganized side. Looks like there’s a lot of work to be done.

        They have a great mission and I’ve loved volunteering from them, but now that I’m board member and I have a window into the finance and operations side…it’s pretty scary.

  78. Laura*

    So I have a question.

    Upon a position opening (after the holidays- 4 months from now at the earliest) at the location in my hometown, I intend to attempt a transfer.

    I already work for the company-still have to go in for an interview.

    My question is how do I dress up my usual work wear (blouse and a skirt/ slacks, black shoes) for that interview if/ when it comes? Or do I even need to?

    2. Sagan's Mommy*

      If I were you, I would dress as you would for an external interview, because it would show that you were serious about the position.

    3. Nanc*

      If you’re worried about being in obvious interview clothes, start upping your wardrobe now. Wear a blazer or jacket more often, more tailored trousers, carry a briefcase/folio/whatever you might carry to the interview. Bonus: you’ll get used to moving in those clothes!

      If that’s not feasible, Murphy’s suggestion of just having a blazer or jacket in your car and putting it on just before the interview works well.

  79. Anon for this*

    I have a question about a job that had a sorry end and how to address that. A couple of years ago, a (now former) friend started a company, and asked me to deal with the administrative and operations side- invoicing and payroll, that kind of thing. There were… cash flow problems, and he wasn’t the most stable person (I should have listened to my instincts but I was also desperate at the time), and I eventually walked away after he drained the company account for his drug problem, it was clear that there was no fixing any of the problems.

    I was with the company for just under a year, and there’s about six months where that was my only job. What is the best way to address that period without sounding like I’m just trashing a former employer?

    1. Amber Rose*

      “I took a few months to assist a friend with his company, however it didn’t succeed.”

      Maybe? It’s pretty normal for new companies to fail, so I don’t think anyone will find that too concerning. You don’t have to bring up WHY it failed.

      1. Anon for this*

        It’s entirely possible that I’ve been over thinking the whole thing. (That’s my go-to for a weakness on the “Strength and weakness” question.)

      2. Snark*

        Yeah. Most startups fail. I think “I was with a startup that didn’t succeed,” is about all you need to say about this.

      1. Manders*

        I think this is the way to go. People understand that startups can fail for all kinds of reasons that have nothing to do with an individual employee’s work. It might be difficult if they want a reference from the ex-friend, but if they worked with clients there may be other people available to give references.

    3. Specialk9*

      It was a startup that closed shop. I think I’ve seen notations on resumes like “Company X (Closed 2017)”. Don’t go into any of those details about drugs, friends, etc. Not relevant, and too dramatic – keep it dry and boring at this stage, except maybe the interesting new skills you learned as a result of startup understaffing and having to cover other tasks.

  80. De Minimis*

    I could definitely use people’s advice about this right now!

    I went through this during the last recession, but it was different because I was a super poor fit for the job and had been trying to leave since I got there. I ended up being fired and not laid off. This time it’s different.

    I keep thinking about the idea of how it’s easier to find a job when you have a job….so I’m starting to apply to stuff. I’m in a way better position as far as what would happen if I was laid off compared to others here, but I still find myself having early-waking anxiety in the middle of the night.

    1. De Minimis*

      Sorry, this was in response to the thread above about living under potential layoffs…don’t know why it got kicked to the bottom as a new thread.

  81. Qwerty*

    This week’s letter about the boss that internet surfed all day brought to mind my own workday internet surfing habits. When I’m trying to discreetly waste time on the internet, I usually go to AAM, mostly because of the content, but also because of the simple formatting of the site that makes it more conspicuous when coworkers walk by. I never look at sites like Facebook during the workday because the formatting of the website is too recognizable. What sites do y’all like to go to when wasting time? And are your preferences also shaped by the formatting of the site?

    1. Specialk9*

      News, yes. (Though I just can’t these days.)

      Health, yes. (Like food & exercise tracking sites, symptom look-up, recipes)

      No:
      *Facebook, no way.
      *Personal life advice columns, no.
      *Shopping, no.
      *Fashion, no.

      All of these should be done on your off time, OR on your phone (on breaks or discreetly; and don’t use the company WiFi; and either don’t Facebook friend anyone at work or lock down privacy settings so they don’t see anything you post in the day. People get fired for Facebook posting at work, even if they do it on a bathroom or lunch break.)

      Real estate or restaurants, only very occasionally.

      1. Specialk9*

        Oh, I should say that I’m more worried about keywords or URLs tripping a company monitoring software, than about people seeing what I’m doing as they walk by. (I have a privacy screen.)

        You might try reading articles in text only. Check out BareSite, TinyRead, and TextMirror.

  82. ForeignAcademic*

    A colleague just asked for advice about a particularly awkward situation. I remembered that there was an excellent AAM question about it a while back, so I did a quick web search.

    Alison, can I just apologize for potentially giving employees of the search engine company and/or any international security services who are spying on me the wrong idea about you? Because, without thinking about what I was typing, the first thing I entered into Google was “alison green body odor”.

    I hope you’ll understand that I meant this search in only the most complimentary and non-odiferous way.

      1. Friday Night*

        Man, I’ve used that twice as a template for talking to summer students with that particular problem since the article came out

        1. Captain whiskers*

          You are better than I am, I always chickened out about having the conversation (mainly because the smelly person wasn’t a report of mine and so it would have been odd).

    2. Emma*

      Haha! I just did this a week ago myself. A friend of a friend has a particularly bad smelling coworker and I was like “I have just the thing for you!” and took to google with that exact query.

    3. Drew*

      I have only had to have that conversation with a direct report once, fortunately; this employee split time between a warehouse and the office, and in the afternoons after a morning packing boxes, he was pretty ripe.

      It turned out that he was anosmic and truly didn’t know he was smelly. I suggested that he might want to buy a stronger antiperspirant and make sure to apply it every morning, and that maybe a second deodorant or antiperspirant kept in his car wouldn’t be a bad idea for a “touch up” when he was done in the warehouse for the day. It was an awkward conversation but a necessary one, and fortunately the employee took it in stride and the problem more or less went away, with only the occasional “hey, you might want to run to your car for a second” reminder needed.

      Now, how to tell your boss that HE needs to pay more attention to his axillary hygiene?

  83. peachie*

    Ugh, folks. Ugh. It’s already been a long week and I started my day with an surprise conference call that turned unexpectedly confrontational and uncomfortable. My department of two (boss and I) runs a collection of groups for professionals in various, specific niches. It’s popular, low-cost to run (read: they won’t let us hire anyone else to help), revenue-generating, and has been going strong for over a decade. Recently, we went through the higher-ups and the board to change the name and mission statement of one group, which had evolved a bit from its original intent.

    Our call was supposed to be a 15-minute quick meeting with the woman who makes most of our flyers to discuss making one for the “new name” launch. I got on the call 1 minute late and was immediately in the middle of an attack on our program as a whole. Not only did the flyer-woman refuse to help us out, the tenor of the whole conversation was “I don’t get how this is adding any value to our organization and I don’t see why it exists.” It was all very hostile and unexpected and it’s put me in a weird funk.

    I dunno, our department is under-resourced and that’s frustrating, but I can live with it as long as I feel like I’m being respected otherwise. But today, as I sit here trying to learn InDesign and make this damn flyer myself, I don’t feel that way at all.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      Ugh, that’s irritating. I’m sorry your colleague chose to be unhelpful!

      I’m sure you’re doing great with InDesign, but Canva is a web-based tool for design that is super user friendly and makes some good looking stuff. You might take a look at that too — much gentler learning curve!

      1. fposte*

        Even Microsoft Word has gotten pretty good for flyers–we’ve moved stuff off of InDesign and onto it.

      2. zora*

        My other trick is to use an old InDesign flyer from a previous thing where I only have to change the text, but everything else can stay exactly the same.

  84. Political Career Changer*

    I’m hoping for some advice on talking about political volunteering while applying for jobs.

    For the past couple of years I’ve become an active member of a political party, helping out with canvassing, delivering leaflets, etc. Earlier this year I stood unsuccessfully as a candidate in our local elections, and have also been elected to a leadership role within the local party. All this has meant I’ve gained a lot more knowledge about how local government works, how public services are administered (and where they fall down!), and experience in things like running formal meetings and managing volunteers, none of which I could get in my actual job which is very commercial.

    I’m now looking to change careers, hopefully into the non-profit sector, and I think this knowledge and experience will be helpful – but I’ve always been reluctant to mix work and politics and I’m not sure how to frame it. Should I put everything on my CV/covering letter? Should I leave it off but then use it for examples in interviews? Should I continue to keep a work/politics divide and leave it out completely?

    For context, I’m not in the US. In my area my party used to do very well but in recent years support has dropped off quite a bit and we came third in the election in which I was one of the candidates. Some people are upset about the role we played in a referendum a few years ago, and my main worry is that I’ll alienate someone from the other side. On the other hand, would I want to work with someone who felt so strongly about it they would allow it to affect a hiring decision?

    1. Specialk9*

      Ooh good question! I was taught never to mix work and politics, but those are impressive skillsets. If you don’t get an answer here by the weekend, email Alison, that might make a good column.

  85. Wendy Darling*

    Does anyone know anything about how non-compete agreements are enforced in Washington state?

    The good news is I’ve been offered a job in my field!

    The bad news is that it’s a six-month contract with the possibility of extension or permanent employment but no guarantee… and they want me to sign a 12-month non-compete that would require me to notify them if I intend to work for a competitor and let them decide whether that would be a problem.

    I work in Tea Recognition and this company does a broad range of work on various Tea Recognition topics and provides Tea Recognition services to anyone who doesn’t want to roll their own Tea Recognition system. Interpreted broadly, this non-compete could prevent me from working in my field *at all* for 12 months if they decide not to renew my contract, since EVERYONE who does Tea Recognition is either a client or competitor of this company.

    Not taking this job is not really a viable option, unfortunately, as I’ve been out of work for an extended period and other than this nonsense it is a great opportunity.

    1. Claire*

      You could talk to people in the industry to find out if this is standard practice, but if you’re looking for actual legal advice, you need to talk to a lawyer

    2. Natalie*

      A lawyer is definitely a good idea, but in the mean time you might take a look at your state AG’s website – many states have actual legislation or case law that regulates non-competes. Speaking generally – just because something is in a contract doesn’t mean it’s legal or enforceable.

      1. Wendy Darling*

        My understanding, having asked a bunch of people in the same/similar fields, is that no one bothers trying to enforce them under the director/VP level unless you are actively trying to take company secrets to a competitor in a super obvious way, and also that because I’m a contractor it’s frowned upon even HARDER because if I was so damned important they should have hired me properly.

        I ended up doing the same thing I did at my last job, which is to sign it and resolve to pay a lawyer if I leave and it becomes an issue, because it almost never seems to become an issue.

    4. Managing to get by*

      I live and work in Washington (and am NOT an attorney, but have had to sign non-competes at many companies). My understanding is that non-competes here can have repercussions for working with clients of the company you just left, but cannot restrict you from working in the industry. They also have to have a time frame, I believe 2 years may be the limit because I’ve never seen one longer than 2 years. Additionally, I have heard that they are difficult to enforce, in that the company you left needs to show significant harm from your activities.

      One company I worked for was bought by an out of state company, and we were required to sign a non-compete with the acquiring company. They had restrictive non-competes that did not allow us to work in the same industry within 250 miles of any of the company’s offices for 5 years after termination of employment. A couple weeks after the non-competes were distributed they were replaced by agreements that were more like our old agreements – cannot work for clients of the company for 2 years. Word was spread around that the original non-competes were legal in the state where the company’s home office was located, but not in Washington State, and that one of the execs involved his attorney and ended up getting them all revised.

      Again, I’m not an attorney, and this is all third-hand, but I’ve never seen anything tougher than a 2 year limit on working for the same clients as the company you just left. I’ve also never seen a company able to enforce a non-compete, even when someone left and took most of their clients with them.

  86. JustaTech*

    I want to send a huge thank you, shout out and a hundred million blessings to everyone who helped me with my Excel problem last week, especially Excel Hellion, Friday, Jane B, Jean (just Jean), paul, XL Nerd, Beancounter Eric, Five after Midnight, leah, nonegiven, That Would Be a Good Band Name, Student, Elizabeth West and Mmm Hmm.

    We had a good long talk about it at work on Monday, discovered that every computer-based system is going to do the same thing because of the way computers work at the most basic level, and decided as a group how to address it. It was a conversation we needed to have.

    So again, thank you all! You saved my butt, you saved my sanity, and you helped foster an important conversation about data. You are all awesome!

    3. paul*

      sounds like it goes beyond just Excel then? Glad y’all are recognizing it and discussing it. Do you think any professional online communities or journals or email list for your field would have ideas?

      1. JustaTech*

        Well, the computer program going “I will keep *all* the figures after the decimal point!” is pretty universal as far as I could tell (it’s not just Excel, it’s Jmp and therefore probably SAS and STATA and R and who knows maybe MiniTab and Prism and GraphPad).
        And the truth is that most of the time no one cares about significant figures, or they don’t end up actually mattering, so it’s fine.
        The meeting was more of a heads-up than a deep technical conversation. And honestly I don’t know that anyone else in the field cares. (Or they only care when they lose a Mars lander.)

        1. Southernbelle*

          My favorite Mars mishap remains that one time Lockheed Martin used IMPERIAL UNITS (!@#$!%!!) and NASA… didn’t (Mars Orbiter, 1999). Did they really lose one from rounding errors too?!?!

    4. Susan K*

      I didn’t read last week’s open thread, so I had to go back and see what your question was :). I’m kind of sad I missed it because I love Excel and I’m always happy to help people with it when I can. I’m glad there were other people reading who could help you!

  87. Cloud Nine Sandra*

    Listening to coworker who always complains about hating the job bonding with new guy about how new guy had a horrible boss here at the company. So basically “these people suck,” and “I agree, here’s how my boss sucked!” I just don’t think there’s a lot of value in that kind of bonding. (done venting)

  88. Fabulous*

    I went from having 60-80% free* time at work to about 10%. I’ve been in conference calls almost constantly from 10am-5pm all week. It’s been… interesting… trying to get my other work done!

  89. JokersandRogues*

    Hi, I’ve never asked a question before, but I’m kinda nervously waffling.

    I work in reporting in a financial services company.
    We had a re-org about three months ago, and (on purpose) management has not really clarified to the lines of business how that played out, and in fact hasn’t been clear with us. However, as a result, I was told that my manager wasn’t really my manager anymore. This was a bit of a relief as he and I do not , mmm, communicate well? Or just never really got to any kind of connection. I don’t have to be best friends or even friends with a manager, but you need some sort of working together ability. In 20 years, I’ve never had this complete absence of whatever that is. In any case, he isn’t my manager (still listed as officially but any issues go to someone else.) He’s been working on a project to work on certain systems and improve them. I agree with the aims of that and understand the purpose, but don’t quite see how my specific project(s) will fit into it and anytime I try and bring that up, he just kinda hand-waves and says it’s simple etc.

    So, anyway, last week, I was wrapping up for the afternoon. Everyone else had left for a department happy hour. He was headed out but stopped by my cube. He proceeded to inform me, a little sneeringly I felt, that obviously I should be doing more work for his projects, and that my stuff should easily fit into it, and that overseas contractors could easily do my job especially since it was an unimportant (he did actually say unimportant). And then added he was just concerned for me, since with the reorg, so much had gone to overseas.
    I was taken aback but just said I understood his redos were important but that I was concerned about how my projects would fit into it etc.
    He left. I was pretty upset and couldn’t handle going to the Happy Hour, and now I’ve been avoiding him as much as possible. i also Rage-pinged the recruiter I’ve been working with since the reorg happened just because everything has been so uncertain.

    I’m trying to think how to even bring this up with my actual boss (who ex-manager also reports to). I mean the sneery thing is just my judgment/word against his and how do I ask for reassurance? I’m inclined to think I just keep my head down and ignore this but….I don’t know. I felt attacked and am not sure how to deal with it.
    Note: if it’s relevant, my projects are used daily by a member of the Executive Suite (EVP) and several Senior Vice Presidents.

    Thanks. Sorry so long.

    1. Jillociraptor*

      I think it might be helpful to ask your current boss to walk through your projects and where you’re spending your time, with the intent of continuing to clarify things after the re-org. Starting here means that you can confirm that you’re prioritizing correctly, and that you are spending the time and energy you should be on Old Boss’s projects. Hopefully this will reassure you that you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing and that your work is valuable.

      I’m torn on how to address Old Boss’s tone with your current manager. What, specifically, is the outcome that you’re hoping to achieve? Is there something specific you want your current boss to do? If you need reassurance that your old boss is a jerk, I’m glad to give that to you right now with a high degree of certainty!

      One possible angle would be to follow up on the prioritization conversation with something like, “Thanks for clarifying this. One of the reasons I was asking was because I’ve had a bunch of difficult interactions with Old Boss about these projects and it seems like he has some different assumptions about how I should be spending my time. Do you have any advice for how I should respond?” I think a good manager would read between the lines on that one, but you might eventually have to circle back to explain if it’s becoming a pattern and a problem.

      As for actually responding to your old boss, I realize you didn’t ask this question, but it sounds like he’s dealing with his own issues of feeling like his projects aren’t important and might be taking that out on you. It might be a good situation for practicing a few standard “non-responses.” Things like, “Huh, that’s an odd thing to say.” Or “Hmm, that’s not my understanding.” Followed by neutral silence.

      1. JokersandRogues*

        Thank you for responding. Yes, I’m sure ex boss has been feeling out of place for a lot of reasons many of which aren’t his fault. I think I’m just resentful he picked me to take this out on. I’m not really sure how I would want true boss to respond, which is probably why I’ve been waffling. Not sure what can be said. However, it’s a good point that I can at least clarify my priorities.

        1. Specialk9*

          Your boss was deliberately trying to make you feel bad. He’s a jerk. So now you know that this person with whom you don’t click and to whom you don’t report is also an unprofessional jerk. He’s revealed himself. As much as possible, turn your inner feelings for him into petrified wood – he doesn’t get to upset you or take up your inner real estate.

          You can have a conversation with your new manager and share specific concerns, but be clear what you want to get out of it. Sometimes it’s helpful to tell a boss that this person is kind of a jerk (not in those words, but by asking questions about why OldBoss would say this, how should that inform my behavior) so they can dismiss any undermining that OldBoss is doing. (Which if he would do this to your face, you know he’s doing worse behind your back.)

    2. JulieBulie*

      In 1991, some sneery asshole told me that my profession would be obsoleted by computers within five years. Well, I’m still in that profession, thanks. And he lost his job less than a year later.

      I don’t know what is wrong with your sneery ex-boss, but it has way more to do with him than it does with you. And you are probably not the only person he’s been sneery with; in fact, could that even be part of why he no longer has any direct reports? Sounds like he’s miffed that he doesn’t get to boss you around any more.

      It is probably not necessary or helpful to mention this to your boss, but that depends on what kind of relationship you have. If you have questions about wht the sneery fellow told you, you can bring it up within that context. (There is no need to mention the sneery tone; I think his words speak for themselves.)

      1. JokersandRogues*

        Thank you for responding. Yeah, i don’t think he’s made friends; he’s been condescending a bit to people I think it’s unwise to be so to. Also, if I repeated what he said to my business group (which I won’t) but I can guarantee all hell would break loose. They really like me; I rebuilt the relationship after a previous person in my position was transitioned out because they wouldn’t talk to him. For good reason.
        I think I was just shocked to have someone say that to me and in that tone. I try to make a point of keeping my tone helpful no matter what, but…
        Anyway…i think i will just approach current boss (who has actually been my grand-boss for 18 months, while I’ve had a series of other bosses; they just flattened everything) and I have a good relationship with him.

  90. The Cube is Too Damn Small*

    Anyone have tips on adjusting to a major change in your physical office space? Our building is being re-done, and three floors of staff (~100 people) are getting consolidated to one floor. We have it stupidly good now – five or six people per large room, with really big (maybe 8’x12′?) “cubes” with partial dividers. We’re going down to 6’x6′ cubes in an open plan layout, and we’re losing almost all of our file storage and some amenities (extra tables for laying out plans, extra bathrooms and conference rooms, a second kitchen, and possibly the showers and locker area).

    1. Beatrice*

      If you’ll have less storage space, start aggressively culling your file archives and other stored stuff. Consider making calendars for some of your limited resources (the tables and conference rooms) to keep from stepping over each other when you use them. Even if you already have calendars – consider restricting who can book or setting some ground rules about when/how they can be used (Conference Room A can’t be booked in blocks of more than 2 hours, only admins can book conference rooms and your request needs to include the business purpose for your meeting, Table 2 can only be booked by architects). Also consider alternative options for some of the things you use your resources for today – can you get/add conference call numbers so some meetings can happen virtually instead of using a meeting room, can you rent a local reception hall for very large meetings, can you budget for more lunch interviews at restaurants, etc?

    2. Specialk9*

      At my old job, people volunteered to work from home during the 1-office-into-3-cubes-but-look-its-pretty-yay! remodel, and the new open loud layout was so off-putting that only about 10% actually came back to the office. They just kinda kept working from home. I hadn’t known that was an option, and it cracked me up, but I think the managers were just as put off. (Plus there was a loud-loud talker who never shut up.)

  91. Kelsey Logan*

    I interviewed for a job a few weeks ago. They said they would let me know last Friday, however they told me they would let me know after the phone interview within a week and it was almost three, so I’m not holding my breath. Anyway, I saw Alison mention that after a couple weeks you could “follow-up” and check in about status of the search. Does anyone have any tips on wording an email like that?

    1. NaoNao*

      I would say something like
      “Hi Recruiter or Interviewer’s Name
      I just wanted to take a quick moment to touch base with you and see where your team is in the process, and if there’s any more information you needed from me to continue.
      I’m looking forward to connecting with the team soon and do wish you the best on your search!”

      —Kelsey Logan

      1. fposte*

        I’d tweak that second sentence–you don’t care where they are in the process, you want to know when they’ll be letting people know. “…touch base with you and check to see what your time frame on the search is.”

  92. Stop That Goat*

    So, I was offered a team lead position, small raise, and better PTO/benefits at a new place this week. I’d like to run my own team one day but I don’t see that happening at my current employer without additional experience and I’ve finally got the opportunity to get me on that path. That being said, this is a pretty poor time for me to leave my current employer because we have a lot going on with a large software implementation. I expect that I may get the cold shoulder by some of the upper’s as a result. I know that this is normal but I have so much anxiety about giving my notice. I’m waiting until I receive my written offer which should arrive next week.

    Not sure why I’m posting here except to get it off my chest.

    1. JulieBulie*

      Are you fishing for some “spectacular resignation” suggestions? ;-)

      The new position sounds awesome. If your current employer reacts poorly when you give notice, just grit your teeth and think about the future.

    2. Specialk9*

      Your company wouldn’t give you loyalty if they needed to cut costs, they’d just lay you off, even if your spouse was sick or you/spouse were pregnant. It’s nice of you to think of them, but when 1-sided, it isn’t actually loyalty, it’s being a sucker.

      Give notice, they’ll figure it out.

      Good luck in the new job!

  93. Nervous*

    I gave my two weeks notice earlier this week. This is my first post-grad school job, and I’ve been trying to make it work, but the work subject is just too far out from what I went to school for (and what I was told the job would be).

    I resigned to my immediate supervisor, but her supervisor also works really closely with us, assigns us tasks, etc. (which can make things confusing). Immediate Supervisor and I talked about it and agreed it made sense for her to tell her supervisor.

    Now supervisor’s supervisor is not talking to me. To the point of walking in a room and walking right out when she sees I’m there. Immediate Supervisor also told me her supervisor wanted to talked to me about it, and I was hoping to talk to her too since we’ve worked together closely.

    Now I don’t know what to do. Do I try to bring up my leaving with her? Just let it go since I’m leaving? I don’t want to burn a bridge, and I don’t want to make anything worse.

    1. Brandy*

      I would just let it go. You were professional and resigned with enough time to the correct person. This is a her problem, not a you problem.

    2. Specialk9*

      Oh for heaven’s sake. Adults acting like children. Continue to be a good role model for your bosses and grand bosses; perhaps eventually they can grow into your level of maturity.

  94. Amber Rose*

    Signs your company is doing poorly: Switches to single ply toilet paper.
    Signs things are looking up: Switches back to two ply.

    This has been Amber’s “bathroom” theory of company financial status.

    We’ve actually hired back as many as were let go last year plus a few, so that’s a pretty good sign also. But I’m concerned about the impact the cancellation of the Energy East pipeline is gonna have on the already kind of unstable oil industry around here. I really need a job in a more stable industry.

    1. ThatGirl*

      The company I used to work for started cutting back on things like coffee in the break area and the company discount in the cafeteria and I knew we were not doing so hot.

    2. Colette*

      I once worked for a high tech company that switched out cream in the coffee rooms for powdered creamer, and pointed out you could still get cream if you bought coffee in the cafeteria. That’s when I knew the company wasn’t going to survive. (It didn’t.)

      Turns out having every engineer/software developer in the building spend 10 minutes walking to the cafeteria every time they want a cup of coffee costs a lot more than cream.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Our company has never offered cream. There’s a literal closet full of the powdered stuff. Everyone’s OK with it apparently. But then, they mostly drink Coke Zero, so I think I just work with oddballs. xD

        I was a little worried for a bit, but it looks like the company is recovering. Still, it’s stressful working in this industry.

    3. Specialk9*

      I have never ever ever worked anywhere with 2-ply toilet paper. That’s… You have 2-ply at work?!?!

  95. ConferenceCancellation*

    I was registered to attend a conference next week that is taking place AT the Mandalay Bay.
    The conference is still going on as planned, but I decided not to attend. I was able to get a refund for the conference fee and hotel, and full credit for the airfare.
    My bosses are 100% supportive, but I still am worried about whether my decision is the right choice professionally. Others from my company and professional organization are still attending. Frankly I haven’t heard of anyone else who’s changed their plans.
    Do you think my choice has the potential for a negative impact professionally?
    I wasn’t presenting or anything, just attending.

    1. Sassy AE*

      If your bosses are fine and everything was refunded I think you’re good. Were you just attending, or working a booth? Either way I think the organizers are excepting a lot of cancellations and may just want to sweep the entire conference under the rug. I’m actually surprised they didn’t cancel, but maybe they feel we’re far enough away from the shooting.

      1. ConferenceCancellation*

        no, I wasn’t working a booth or anything like that, would just have been attending sessions and learning and networking.

    2. Snark*

      Eeeeeeehhhhhh…..I mean, on the one hand, it’s kind of a fraught place right now, and it’d be creepy and sad and weird to be there. On the other, I don’t think there’s really a compelling security or safety reason not to go, and I think most would go anyway. Ultimately your bosses are being supportive, so it’s probably not going to harm you, and I wouldn’t overthink not attending it if you’re not a presenter or otherwise involved with the event beyond attendance.

      1. ConferenceCancellation*

        I didn’t cancel for safety reasons – I’m sure it’s a safe place to be right now. Essentially I couldn’t think of a compelling reason *to* go – I can network and learn without going there. And my feelings about the situation would make it difficult for me to network and learn if I went there right now.

    3. De Minimis*

      Often it costs a ton of money to cancel with the hotel, so they probably decided to just hold it anyway and do the best they could. Also a lot of vendors and other parties might have been on the hook if they’d cancelled.

      1. paul*

        Yep. We had a work conference this month and it wound up still happening despite all the hurricane crap, mostly for that reason (it wasn’t in the directly impacted areas sot he hotel itself wasn’t busted up–but I think there were still evacuees in the hotel the conference was at!).

    4. more anon again, sadly*

      I think you have to do what is right for you. I cannot imagine anyone with half a soul thinking negatively of you for deciding you don’t want to go. I also cannot imagine anyone with half a soul thinking negatively of you for deciding you do want to go. There is no easy answer and most people will respect that.

      I was supposed to go to Vegas this upcoming weekend for a girls trip. My plans changed several months ago, but I cannot stop crying over this tragedy, including at work. Fortunately, I work alone a lot. I also refuse to not talk about it (even in the office) because I believe that is a major part of the issue…. Talking about ways to prevent these tragedies is “Taboo.” Utter crap…. I don’t care if I get fired over this. Something needs to be done.

      I’m doing my best not to dwell (failing miserably), but this one really hit close to home.

      **attempting to get off soap box now**

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I don’t think it would have a negative impact with any reasonable person. Just because you haven’t heard of any others changing their plans doesn’t mean they aren’t or haven’t. Like Sassy AE said, they are probably expecting a lot of cancellations and that is probably why they were willing to give you a full refund.

    6. Meg*

      (Was this for Tableau, by any chance?) My coworkers all decided not to attend, as well, so you’re not alone! I can see both sides, but I think it’s a fine choice on your part.

      1. Meg*

        Edited to clarify: I wasn’t planning to attend this year, but I probably would have withdrawn, as well.

      2. ConferenceCancellation*

        yes indeed! I’m probably overthinking it because I feel close to the other Tableau users at my company – but I guess we have different comfort levels with these situations. I’m glad I’m not alone!

    7. Borgette*

      I’m scheduled to go to that conference. My small group has all decided to stick to the plan and go, but management checked in with everyone individually and made it clear that cancelling was 100% okay.

      If you still want to ‘attend’ remotely, Tableau conference is really good about posting videos of the seminars for free online. It’s a bit tricky to find, but they’re super helpful! Last year, a bunch of people from my department went, leaving a just handful of us in the office. There wasn’t much to do, so I watched seminars from the conference (or maybe a previous one?) most of that week. Here’s the link to last year’s videos: http://tclive.tableau.com/SignUp

  96. MI Dawn*

    Is it weird to anyone else that my boss is asking me to write a recommendation for her to attend grad school? I wrote a 2 line item: Sasha is organized and a good manager. She will be a good addition to any graduate program.

    But I feel it’s really weird. First off, I’ve never had to write a recommendation for someone before. Second, is it normal to ask your subordinates to do this? (Note: my boss, grandboss and I are all women; the rest of the team is male).

    1. NaoNao*

      It’s a little weird! But maybe go into detail about why she’s a good manager and how that relates to grad school.
      Usually in the humanities or arts, grad school is about research, writing papers, conferences, publishing, and networking. It can also be about teaching duties, or assisting in classrooms in other ways.
      For STEM schools, it could be practicums, research studies, applied program products, lab or field work, plus all the teaching or assisting duties.
      Is there a way to talk about how her current job matches those goals or duties?
      I think she probably just needed a friendly recommendation and wasn’t really thinking it through too much.

      1. fposte*

        “Not thinking it through too much” is the kiss of death in applying to any decent grad school, though, so I’m not real impressed with Manager here.

    2. fposte*

      I think in the right situation and with the right person it could be non-weird. It sounds like yours is not that situation, and that she really shouldn’t have asked you.

      1. MI Dawn*

        She’s only been my manager for 10 months and with the company itself about 2 years. So as a manager, she’s OK (not stellar) and I really don’t know her well. The MBA program is through an agreement with my company and a local university.

    3. Susan K*

      Yes, I think it’s pretty weird because of the power dynamic, and I would hope that the school would recognize that and take your recommendation with a grain of salt. If she’s currently your manager, of course you’re going to feel pressured into writing a positive recommendation for her, even if that’s not your real opinion.

      1. fposte*

        It sounds like it’ll be pretty clear from what MI Dawn writes that she has little insight into her manager’s ability to succeed, so it’ll be given appropriate weight.

  97. Felix*

    Any graphic designers out there?

    I’m thinking about going back to school to study graphic design – I (foolishly?) took everyone’s advice in my life to get an “academic” degree instead of pursuing what I was most interested in.

    So questions:
    – are you self taught or did you study? Do you feel like school was worth it?
    – is it possible to break into this line of work in your late 30s? I feel like this job may skew young or prefer young talent.
    – do you like your job? Why?
    – what don’t you like?
    – is it a liveable salary? I’ve seen jobs posted in this field anywhere from minimum wage to 80,000+
    – if you were to get schooling in this is a 4-year BA, 4-year technical program, 2-year MA, 1-year post graduate certificate or 1 to 2 year college certificate preferable? My region offers all of the above….
    – any advice?

    1. Emma*

      I’m in my late 20’s and started off in graphic design so I won’t be a ton of help but hopefully I can help a little. I attended a 4-year art school (public school, not private, no $$ for that, ha). I think the best thing I ever did was picking a program that focused on the theory of art and design and not the technical side of things. The technical stuff is always changing and it’s expected that you stay on top of that yourself.

      With that in mind, if I were you I’d start off doing some self-teaching in the software (Lynda is worth the money). I tell my student interns to find designs they admire and try to replicate them exactly. I also tell them not to turn down little side jobs from friends or family asking them to do invitations or flyers– those experiences help you learn if you enjoy working with a client to finish a design. Because once you’re in the industry you’ll find people have terrible taste, ha. Compromise and negotiation are key to working with clients and not everyone enjoys that. If doing all the things I just mentioned are exciting and stimulating for you it might be worth investing in schooling of some sort.

      My experience has been that the inter-disciplinary, theory-based education I got was well worth it. My art school didn’t offer “tracks” in painting, photography, graphic design. Instead you studied what you wanted to after you took the core classes– that allowed me to take photography, graphic design, and web design classes as well as some fine art classes. I’m primarily a “traditional” graphic designer in that I don’t do a lot of web work, mostly print. But I am constantly using things I learned in photo, web, and fine art classes. The design theory that was the focus on my education hasn’t changed and I’m grateful to the professors that were my mentors in that area.

      The other thing– coming from another field in mid-life isn’t necessarily a bad thing! You might be able to use that knowledge and tie it into a design career somehow. I have a friend from school that just got her MBA because she’s considering going out on her own and running her own creative agency. If you’re coming from a niche industry, as another example, you might be a highly valuable designer going back to your old industry in a new role with your existing knowledge.

      The other thing– generally speaking, your education matters less than your portfolio. Your portfolio trumps all. So if you can teach yourself and build a portfolio of client-work (freelance jobs, etc.) you could be just fine not returning to school. I think design theory is important and sometimes it’s easiest to get that from professors with long careers in traditional school settings, but it’s not the only way.

      Oh and salary– I’ve been working FT for about 6 years and I’m just under $50k now, started at ~$38k right after school (in the midwest). I know some friends in major urban areas that are pushing 60-65k at this point. But I think the 80k you mentioned it probably about as high as it gets unless you’re managing a huge creative team as an art/creative director. There are a lot of low-paying positions out there that are very technical in nature and not necessarily as “creative,” if that makes sense, which explains the pay disparity, in part. There are also a lot of companies that just expect profound, groundbreaking creative work from minimum wage, PT employees and are then shocked when they don’t get that, ha.

      Hope that helps!

    2. Former Graphic Designer*

      I graduated with BFA and then went back to school for an associate degree in Graphic Design from a community college. I really feel that it was worth it as far as picking up skills and experience with various graphic design programs. (However, I frequently leave the associate degree off of my resume.)

      The program that I took was primarily aimed at print work, but a lot of it carries over into website design. It didn’t cover very much to do with animation or video and often times employers seem to expect those kinds of skills. (If you take a program aimed at print work be sure it includes some experience with color separation. This was something I didn’t get and wish I had.)

      The really disappointing thing to me was that while I was able to find a job as a graphic designer, it really didn’t pay all that well. In fact, it was about the same that I was making as administrative assistant. Sometimes when I was doing typesetting work, I really felt like I was just doing “fancy” word-processing. I never really got to do very creative work. It seemed like I was always doing “production design” and working within existing design parameters. And in real life there was never very much time to do anything very creative anyway. It was always get it out the door ASAP!

      I ended up moving back to my home town to care for my parents and could never find another graphic design job, so I ended up going back to clerical and administrative type jobs for about the same rates of pay as graphic design. Over time the software has changed and evolved and I no longer feel especially competent with it to just go get a job at this point in time.

    3. Crafty*

      Yup, I have an English degree and I made the switch pretty successfully to graphic design. I also wish I had not listened to what everyone said and made the switch earlier, but oh well!

      Since I didn’t get a BFA in GD or fine arts or anything even remotely related, I started by taking a class. I liked it and kept taking more, then picking up small projects, doing lots of self-teaching too as I couldn’t afford to take as many classes as I would have liked. You can definitely get into it in your 30s. I love my job, and I do get to do super creative work. I turned down a high-paying corporate gig last year and I still wonder if it was a good idea, but I love setting my own schedule and I’m fortunate to have my husband’s salary while I freelance. It’s hard to guide you because there is SO much variety in the industry–you could sit at a computer and code all day or you could be building comps and traveling, you could make $30K or $200K/year, there’s just so much variation and so many specialties. Here’s what I don’t love: if you’re freelance, everyone is always undercutting your rate, and the high-paying gigs are more rare than schools let on.

      A few companies will care that you went to a big name design school, but overwhelmingly it’s all about your portfolio. Certificates and the like mean almost nothing in an of themselves, it’s all about the connections you make. My certificate is hardly worth the paper its on, but the people I met while taking classes were what made my career transition successful.

      1. Crafty*

        Oh, and I make about $40K in a relatively high COL city, but I started teaching right away and knew that that would mean lower salary. I’m not even 5 years in to my career, hoping to boost that $40K to about $50 by next year and $60K the year after that. Hard to plan for it though, you just have to be really really hungry for projects.

  98. Junior Dev*

    Has anyone gotten professional headshot photos taken? I need to send one for a blog I’m writing a post for, and I’ve never had them done before. What’s the process like?

    1. NaoNao*

      I have (although I cried when mine came out, because I felt like I looked much older and much less attractive than I do in real life and I was super mad at the photographer, but he was a team member who did them for free so what could I do?).

      My biggest advice:
      If you have longer hair, style it such that it’s loose and worn “down”. I wore mine pulled back and I really wish I hadn’t. It highlighted my round face and small features and I felt I looked very…mashed potatoes.
      If you have shorter hair, maybe wear it in a more “fluffy” style, unless you’re *ultra-confident* in your features and face.

      A flash or ring lights will light up and wash out your face if you’re fair–and any good photographer is going to light the place like she’s doing surgery. So wear more/heavier/more dramatic makeup than you normally would—almost to the point of discomfort (unless you have very high contrast features–sharp, large, square, highly colored features). I would wear a full face of primer, concealer, foundation, blush, eyeshadow, liner, mascara (I wore false lashes, but that’s not needed, my eyes are hooded and deep set), and a sheer but colorful lip tint. It seems like this will maybe make you look ultra femme or glamour girl but I promise it won’t. The lights of the camera will wash out your features *really a lot* unless you “color” them in and help them out a bit.

      I’d consider getting hair and makeup professionally done, honestly.

      Wear a color that flatters that is not black or white. A solid, warm, rich tone like teal, berry, olive, or creamy blue. Jewelry if any should be small and classic. A button down top may work too.

      If you’re someone who wears gender neutral clothing, a button down and blazer often works well. Blazer should be substantial and classic, and fit very well. It shouldn’t look like you borrowed it for the day for the shoot :)

      The photographer will likely sit you on a stool or stand you in front of a plain backdrop. It’s similar to “school picture day”. They’ll have you do some stuff that feel unnatural–twisting your body one way, head another, looking up with chin down, etc. They may ask some questions to get you talking and loosen you up, to get some more relaxed looking pictures.

      They’ll usually take about 15 pictures or so, and some photographers will show you the “proofs”. Some photogs will edit, some won’t, but most professionals will–edit out shine, stray blemishes of any kind (wrinkles, darker spots, etc) on skin, stray static hairs, etc.

      Best of luck!!

      1. Emi.*

        Wait, “any good photographer” would take pictures that wash the subject’s face out? I wore minimal makeup the last couple times I had my picture taken, and the photographer arranged the lighting appropriately so that I did not looked washed out.

        1. NaoNao*

          I’m sorry that was a little misleading. I meant “any good photographer” will have such strong lights that they *may* wash you out. Or maybe “washed out” isn’t the word I’m looking for—more like, your features blend together in such a way that it’s not flattering.
          I think it depends a lot on the photographer’s style, and editing. I had a colleague get pictures taken by the same guy and she looked pulled together, professional, and polished, while I felt I looked washed out and frumpy. Maybe I was just being harder on myself than anyone else would have been.

    1. Nanc*

      Gah! Is there any way to push it off? Seriously, folks are trying to get out/batten down the hatches at this point. If you must go stay as safe as possible. Bring a flashlight, get one of those hand-crank chargers for your phone, pack toilet paper . . .

      1. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Are you in NOLA? I was planning to bring all of the above, except, I have a solar charger for my phone and backup power pack. The person I spoke to at the hotel I’m due to stay at started telling me what they do to have backup there. Also, he told me their neighborhood didn’t get flooded in August.

        If you’re in the city, maybe you’ve got more details?

        1. OlympiasEpiriot*

          Btw, I do generally travel with a small survival pouch, including water purification. I have a varied level of experience with travel. ;-)

        2. Nanc*

          I’m not in NOLA but my cousins live there. They moved just a couple of weeks before Hurricane Katrina back in the day and now their response is to just head north whenever it looks like a storm. They work remotely so that’s an option. They’ve already high-tailed it out of town so I can’t really give you any details. I’m sure their advice would be to cancel the trip if at all possible, but it sounds like you’re as prepared as possible.

  100. Fishcakes*

    How do I politely, but effectively, convince my colleagues and superiors that I really need to think/ponder and other non-work seeming things in order to do my job well?

    In my current position I do a lot of researching, writing, and graphic design. Whenever anything unusual or difficult comes up, I get the task of figuring it out. (For example, I have to teach myself Access and make a database for one program area.) I like all of this sort of work, but I’ve been getting little comments and pushback about “optics” regarding my working methods. I sometimes stare into space at my desk, because I’m thinking or planning a project. I also doodle and sketch quite a bit (usually wireframes or brainstorming layout or graphic ideas for a project), and I do a ton of research on the web. Like right now I have to learn Access and JavaScript. Sometimes I watch a web tutorial on my PC while reading about the task on my phone (were not allowed to print things and I only have one monitor)..

    I explain what I’m doing when asked, but it doesn’t seem to sink in. I’m tired of talking about my “optics.” I think the quality of work that I produce should be more important than the “optics” of how I work. Any advice?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      Is it possible to get a second monitor? We appear to have similar working habits (except throw in the second monitor, but I still have the phone going, just for playlist purposes). Or they could invest in a tablet for you, which could serve as a monitor/reading screen/drawing surface.

      Good design requires thought. Otherwise it’s awful design and doesn’t function well. So if they want quality…they can deal with the staring into space. Conversely, if I know there’s an important someone in office, I will stare into space with a new design document open with some brand color shapes in it and drag those around randomly.

    2. Susan K*

      I sympathize, because I have a couple of specialized responsibilities at work that can be complicated and take some time for me to figure out. These are things that nobody else knows how to do, so although they are happy with the results, they don’t necessarily appreciate the amount of time and effort I have to put into them. Sometimes I have to spend a few hours on trial-and-error before I can get something to work, and in the meantime, I have nothing to show for it, so I’m afraid it will look like I wasn’t doing anything. I don’t know if this is possible for you, but I like to make sure I get something more optically productive done before I start working on something that’s going to take a lot of trial-and-error, so at least it doesn’t look like I did nothing.

    3. Specialk9*

      1) Get a privacy screen for your monitor.
      2) Tell your boss that you need a private office, since you get so much pushback on optics but can’t do your required tasks without.
      3) Ask your boss to give the optics busybodies a talking-to to mind their beeswax.
      4) If your boss is the one giving you flak, push back when they give you this kind of task… And find a new job.

    4. Her Grace*

      What are the optics of “doing nothing” and “thinking”? To the untrained, they look exactly alike.

      The trick is to make them look different. It also helps to train those around you to know what your ‘thinking pose’ looks like.

      A long time ago at a different job I had a coworker who had a literal ‘thinking cap’ he put on to signal he was working on something and not to be disturbed. (In my youthful naivety i assumed it was merely a quirk because he was a higher-up and they can get away with strangeness. Now I understand the wisdom.)

      Later on I had a job where I had to do lots of thinking to solve issues. I wasn’t brave enough for a thinking cap, but I still needed to look like I was thinking.

      Trick one, pace the workroom with a thoughtful frown on my face. The motion made me look ‘busy’ but also kept me somewhat unapproachable. Occasional muttering and finger-counting completed the look.

      Trick two, for when I couldn’t pace, sit or stand with a clipboard and pencil, frowning thoughtfully at whatever was in the clipboard. (Usually nothing, or a random piece of paper.)

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      I feel really annoyed on you behalf. Nobody just starts a creative thing and instantly completes it. It sounds like you work with jealous fools and I’d seriously consider hunting for a new job.

      I’m curious about who’s making the comments? Senior people who are indeed caring about optics? Or peers who may be jealous?

      1. Fishcakes*

        It’s some people senior to me, and I’ve heard that a couple of my peers have complained. In my office looking like you’re working hard is valued over what you’re producing, except in my case. If I don’t complete my projects to an extremely high standard my contract won’t be renewed. I’m working for administrators so they can’t really grasp how I work; most of them do rote tasks all day while I create/learn/test/etc.

    6. only acting normal*

      If you’re learning something can you maybe buy or borrow a textbook? For the BS “optics” you can have it open on the desk with an “appropriate” display of notes, bookmarks, post-its etc, even if you are actually mainly using online resources to learn.
      Or direct the people who criticise to a clip of Sheldon and Raj in Big Bang Theory working together with Eye of the Tiger playing in the background. (Maybe not your bosses…)
      Seriously though, what do they think cognitive work looks like?!

  101. CU*

    I’ve been told for health reasons I need to find a job that is not a desk job. (A desk job with a standing desk won’t cut it.) My background is in high school education, before I burned out, and I’m in mortgage servicing now. My education is heavy in math/stats/economics. I don’t have the personality for sales. I’d be willing to get certification or additional education on the job but can’t afford to do it ahead of time.

    I’m hoping the crowd here has some idea of where to start looking, because I don’t have the slightest. Thanks!

      2. Specialk9*

        Maybe – non warehouse floor jobs (which end up in cyclical injuries due to repetitive motions) that aren’t management (which requires warehouse floor experience) … I’m thinking of motion study experts, loss prevention, inventory control, vendor management, and trainer.

        Whereas Caffeinatedandqueer, she’d know better than I.

    3. paul*

      any shot at getting certified for trades? plumbing, welding, HVAC? It can be pricey–part of why I haven’t done it–but hey, it’s physical skilled labor. My experience with unskilled physical labor is it sucks royally, but skilled gets treated better and of course paid more.

      1. CU*

        I recently had multiple blood clots in my leg. I was lucky and had symptoms so they were caught and treated in time, but I need a more active job going forward.

    5. stej*

      Operations Engineer – esp Logistics or somesuch if you could walk around day-to-day. There are also Logistics-esque engineers and researchers that do data collection of people flow through a space. That might involve some standing and noting the flow in/out, but I’m not terribly familiar.

      Healthcare jobs tend to be very much on-your-feet, but that also tends to be on the clinician side.

      Oh! How about a dispatched IT servicer, who goes out to different buildings/offices to fulfill work orders?

    6. Airedale*

      Maybe event staff? For a public place like a convention center, hotel, banquet hall, stadium, etc.

  102. Inky*

    We’ve been having trouble hiring people, primarily because they either never call back when I try to set up an interview, or never show for the interview (despite sounding excited about it when we talk!). I think a lot of the problem is that we’re not attracting good candidates to start with – limited hours per week, all evening shifts, for just barely above min wage. My boss, however, feels that I need to be more accommodating to possible interviewees. As in, rather than setting up an interview time, tell them to stop by whenever is convenient for them and then make time for a more casual interview (since formality is scaring them off, I guess?), to show that I will value them by being ready to drop whatever I’m doing and focus on them solely. That asking them to come in at a set time on a set day is asking for too much commitment.

    As it is, I currently give people an option of two or three days, and then three to four time on their chosen day ranging from morning to evening, letting them pick the best time for themselves. This is a retail situation and I’m am often the only person in the store, and am not happy about the prospect of having to drop everything (and stop helping customers too, I guess?) to interview someone who just wanders in when they feel like it. In my opinion, someone who finds showing up for an interview at a time they chose to be too intimidating/too much of a commitment is not someone I would trust to be able to show up for scheduled shifts, and thus not someone I would want to hire anyway.

    I guess I just want a reality check here if I am just very wrong here and missing things, or is my boss is being odd.

    1. JokersandRogues*

      If they can’t commit to a particular time to interview, what makes anyone think they would commit to come in to their shift appropriately? It sounds to me like you’re giving quite sufficient options.

    3. Specialk9*

      “Well boss, we could pay better and give a better schedule –”
      “Nonsense, just let them wear jeans and drop by on a whim.”

      Hahaha that’s awesome. Deep denial centered in an unwillingness to do hard things.

  103. Kracken*

    I was recently promoted from legal assistant to paralegal. There is a lot of overlap with my previous position, but now I focus specifically on high risk and highly litigated matters with much stricter deadlines and higher stakes. I was previously part of a team of 5 legal assistants and 3 attorneys. Now it’s just me and one attorney.

    There are some daily tasks that overlap between legal assistants and paralegals. When I was still a legal assistant I took care of as many of these tasks as I could myself. I just assumed it was my responsibility because the paralegal was supposed to focus on higher stakes matters as much as possible. I know the fact that I did this was greatly appreciated.

    Now that I’m the paralegal I’ve learned I was apparently the only legal assistant who did this. All the other legal assistants pass on their work to me if they get even an inkling that it might fall under my work. I have one coworker who will email me and cc my manager on every task she wants me to take care of. Not all of them do this, by the way, and knowing my manager I don’t think she would ask for this to be done anyway. I think it’s a way to make me drop everything and take care of these tasks.

    I’m overloaded and annoyed that my coworkers haven’t even attempted to understand their own caseload. I asked my manager a few months ago about empowering them to take care of these tasks themselves and she said there’s no way they could handle it. A few other tasks are also being transferred to me because the legal assistants couldn’t handle them.

    I think this is bullshit. If I could handle these tasks as a legal assistant, so can they. It may take them a little time and review but is not an impossible task. Some legal assistants are more competent than others certainly, but I know once they are told to take care of something themselves, they do. My ability to take care of urgent tasks and billable activities is limited because I spend so much time on these tasks, but at this point I’m not really sure what to do to get the work off my plate.

    1. Cheese Sticks and Pretzels*

      I think you need to sit down with your manager again and ask her to help with prioritizing your work. It would probably help if you tracked time it takes you to do the other assistants tasks they lay on you to do so you can go in and say I spend X amount of hours per work doing other assistants tasks which takes me away from urgent tasks and billable activities.

    2. Artemesia*

      Well you got promoted which suggests you were clearly able to do higher level work.

      Can you identify a particular set of tasks that you think are clearly something that assistants could be trained to do and suggest to your manager that . you are expected to make X your priority/ billable etc and that Y tasks which could easily be done and you did as an assistant need to be handled by assistants as they are preventing your high priority/billable tasks from being done. Then say: tasks 1, 2, and 3 are routine and simple but time consuming. I suggest we train assistants to do them and provide them with a job aid chart to assist them while they are implementing. If you get buy in, then great. If not then stop doing these tasks until the more pressing tasks are done and do those you can handle during the time you have.

      Are there other paralegals doing these tasks? That will also make a difference in your strategy here.

  104. Captain whiskers*

    Hi everyone,
    I am currently reviewing applications for a position in my department and since I don’t have much experience in hiring, I am wondering how much importance I should attach to the following “odd” mentions in applications:
    – people stating a position as “current” (or with dates like “2014-present”), when the position is across the country, but their address is close to where the job is?
    – a candidate stating that they have “exceptional time management skills” because they graduated early? I kind of fail to see what that has to do with anything.
    – is anyone else bothered by cover letters that sound like they used a thesaurus on every other word?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      Relating to the address, I wouldn’t worry about that at all. They could be working remotely or they could be looking to relocate to the area.

      For the cover letter, is written communication an important component of the job? If so, then yes, I would attach some importance to their thesaurus-like ways.

    2. MechanicalPencil*

      My job technically offices out of the northeast but we can work remotely, so it may be a position like that. There are obvious exceptions to that idea.

      1. Captain whiskers*

        thanks, the resumes I am looking at are part of the “obvious exceptions” categories: line work inspector, instructor for leisure activities (think tennis), etc. i understand that they want to relocate but I feel like either the position is not current anymore, or they are misleading us as to where they live, in which case they would be better off stating their wish to relocate in the cover letter? Maybe I am reading too much into this.

    3. Amber Rose*

      When I was looking to relocate to another city, I lined up a place to stay (with family) before even looking for work so I could use their address. Basically I just wanted to indicate to employers that I wouldn’t need a month to hunt for housing.

      Yes, I’m bothered by thesaurus sounding cover letters.

    4. CCM*

      Are you using Indeed? I have noticed that the majority of candidates haven’t updated their job information through indeed when applying.

    5. The OG Anonsie*

      #1 are probably people who either are already planning to move or are going to move as soon as they find a job in your area. I wouldn’t worry about it.

    6. Student*

      You’re focusing on very small things. Instead, you should focus on big-picture things as you do hiring. Is this resume strong enough to merit a 15-minute phone conversation?

      For the first, on “current” but across country – if the job applicant is strong enough to make it to the next round, you ask about it in a phone interview. You don’t have enough information, and you can’t guess. It’s not necessarily a problem. They may work remotely. They may be moving to your area very soon, or may have used a relative’s local address on the application. They may have quit within the last 2 weeks and forgot to update this one line on their resume. Or maybe it’s a (very strange) lie. You won’t know until you ask them, so don’t speculate and assume pointlessly.

      Graduating early does take time management skills, because you have to cram more classes into a shorter period of time. It’s not a huge accomplishment, but it’s not entirely specious. It’s something you might see on resumes fresh out of college. You’ll see fresh-out-of-college people spin a lot of their college stuff positively even when it’s not necessarily that big of an accomplishment, because they have little or no work history. Don’t get hung up on it. That said, if this person has been out of school for several years, it’s at best a bit silly, and I’d hope they have more concrete stuff on their work history. But, the point is, most people have some stuff that’s a bit silly on their resume, so don’t focus laser-like on just the minor silly bits; focus on whether they have the skills you do need now. Figure out if their particular silliness is a problem in further interviews, when you get a better sense of its depth.

      The “thesaurus” crack is basically saying, “This person’s vocabulary is too big for this job.” Or, possibly, “I had to look up a word on this resume and feel bad about myself.” Is that really what you want to screen candidates on? Did the candidate do a poor job of communicating in the cover letter? That’s a legitimate reason to screen someone out. Did the candidate use a word you didn’t know (but that word isn’t jargon far outside the job you are hiring for)? Then let it go, and examine your own hang-ups about this, because really effective A-managers are not afraid to hire A-people smarter than them, but B-managers try to hire C-people who are clearly inferior to them.

      1. nosy nelly*

        Eh, your last paragraph is unnecessarily dismissive. Not liking “thesaurus-style writing” doesn’t mean one doesn’t understand the words, but could mean that the style comes off stilted and weird.

        OR

        Hmm, the final subsection in the provided response has established an attitude I perceive as overly contemptuous. Etc…

      2. Specialk9*

        “The “thesaurus” crack is basically saying, “This person’s vocabulary is too big for this job.” Or, possibly, “I had to look up a word on this resume and feel bad about myself.” ”

        Or… they’re not good writers, and of course I know all those words, and oh yeah they’re bad writers.

  105. Annie Oakley*

    So, I want to change my display picture on LinkedIn. However, I’m connected with my boss, and don’t want him to think I’m job searching if he notices the change (I’m not job searching, btw). Is my concern unwarranted? I know he gets on LinkedIn fairly often, I see him comment on different articles at least a couple times a week.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      When I did this, I put on a very nice outfit and actually asked my boss to take my picture. I explained that I wanted a new photo on LinkedIn and I wanted to where I worked. She was happy to take the pic and it never occured to her that I might be job searching. That might work for you.

    2. NaoNao*

      Hmm. I changed mine recently to show I had unnaturally colored hair as a sort of “warning” to future employees in case that was a deal breaker—my older picture was of me with natural colored hair and I felt it was genuinely misleading. Maybe you can use a similar reason? “Just got a great new picture taken, wanted to use it” or “I realized my picture is about 3 years old, and I feel I’ve changed a bit in that time frame”.

      1. EmilyG*

        These reasons sound good. You can also toggle off the “notify my network” setting, or whatever it’s called, so he’d only notice it if he proactively visited your profile. Then you probably wouldn’t need a reason.

  106. Cercis*

    2 years ago I quit a toxic job without another job lined up. Since then, I’ve been doing lots of volunteer work and some consulting (a couple of gov’t contracts). I don’t like self-employment because as an extrovert I NEED to be around people on a very regular basis, but I can’t make enough consulting to pay for a coworking space (it’s kind of a chicken/egg thing though, because if I were around people more, I’d probably be more energized and get more done and might actually be able to make money at it). I’ve stayed self employed because I can’t move from this town until my son graduates high school (this year, we hope) and there have been almost no jobs in my field here.

    A job recently re-opened. I interviewed for it last February but then they had a hiring freeze. At the time, they’d told me I was one of their top candidates and they’d fully planned to bring me in for a 2nd interview. I ran into one of the hiring panel last week at a conference and asked what had happened with the job. He told me “oh, we’re going to start interviewing again next week.” So I went and searched and found the posting (which had just been posted earlier that week). I’m trying to not be overly pessimistic that they didn’t contact me when they reposted the job, but it feels like my chances are low.

    Their system doesn’t save previous applications, so I had to do it all from scratch. I got hung up on “why did you leave this position” for both my self-employment and my last toxic job. I went ahead and submitted the app because I felt like there was a deadline based on the comment about interviewing. However, I hope to be applying for jobs soon and I’m trying to figure out the “right answer” to these questions. I usually say “to seek new challenges” but since I was only marginally successful at that, it seems like they’d say “yeah, well how’d that work our for ya?” For what it’s worth, in this 2 years I’ve gained 3 new professional qualifications, 2 of which are fairly new for our area (for one, i was part of the alpha group for development).

    The other thing is – with the exception of toxic boss, everyone I worked with has left this nonprofit, including a board member I worked with closely. The other board member I worked with cut me off as soon as I left and won’t respond to calls or emails (we’d been friends outside of the organization) and I’ve been told that the board was told some horrible things about me (but nothing concrete, it’s just rumors). I did burn the bridge when I left, I sent an email to the board outlining why I was leaving and that they could expect more staff to follow me if they didn’t make some changes. They didn’t make changes and staff left. My replacements have even left (yes, they hired two folks to replace me even though they insisted that I wasn’t working hard enough otherwise I wouldn’t need to work 50 hours each week). I don’t know whom to put as the contact for that job. Toxic Boss is going to make it sound like I was a nightmare employee, but in such a way that I can’t really refute it (she’s almost succeeded in turning another friend against me) but there’s no one else there that knows anything about me. For now, I’ve listed the board member I’m still in contact with (with his permission) with a note that there’s been full staff turnover since I left and he can speak to my job performance.

  107. Grrr*

    You know, I really hate it when retail customers complain to me about how long they’ve been waiting, or how they can’t find anyone to help. To be brutally honest, I couldn’t care less. I know that sounds terribly assholish, but retail stores are constantly cutting staff hours, and me are consistently making less money (especially since merit based pay raises aren’t done) while being expected to work harder and harder to pick up the slack of not having enough coworkers. We’re already running ourselves exhausted every shift, and then some customers want to complain because there’s nobody around to help them but me, and I already have three customers waiting, and they want to tell me hoe UNACCEPTABLE this is and I DON’T CARE ABOUT THEM. I was stressed out enough before they start going off on me. Why get all angry at me and expect me to somehow do something about the situation? I don’t write schedules, and I don’t allocate labor. Take it up with Corporate.

    1. Colette*

      Can you tell them that (nicely)? E.g. “I apologize for the wait! I know that’s frustrating. If you’d like to put in a complaint, you can do that on our website/by filling out a comment card”

      1. paul*

        that’ll just get you yelled at later for not attending to customers, at least if my retail experience (admittedly not recent) was anything to go by.

        I saw us get yelled at for not having the store zoned and faced when I was literally the only floor person for the last 4 hours of my shift, and the company didn’t want to pay any extra hours. Well, what do you expect…

        That said, there’s stores I won’t shop at anymore because you can’t get help. I’m sure it’s the same cutting hours BS, and I don’t hold it against the store level employees, but I’m also not going to put up with it as a customer.

    2. Jade*

      As a former retail employee for many years, I can relate. For one thing, on your end, your employer is going to continue to expect people to do the work of 5 people until those employees stop pushing themselves to do it. ONLY once they see that is is physically impossible to do that amount of work with that amount of people will they be forced to adjust their strategy. So stop working yourself to the bone! Now of course you’d be worried that you’d get in trouble for lack of productivity. I get that. And you will have managers on your butt for a while, but ya know what, I saw people employ the “not working any harder than I have to/than I’m getting paid for” mentality for *years* and they never got fired.

      On the customer end, these people need to realize that the only thing stores respond to is *money*, so if you’re fed up with waiting in line for 20 min to check out, don’t check out and then go up to a manger to complain. Instead, leave your cart at the register, leave your wallet in your pocket, leave the store, and don’t come back! Go to a store that has proper staffing and spend your money there. Why would you give money to a company that gives you poor service in return?!

      The best advice I can give you for how to handle customers angry about the lack of help is to call them a manager and then walk away. People above your pay grade made this mess, so let them clean it up. And as always, the best advice I can give for people stuck in retail is to make a plan to get out of it. Go to college, volunteer at a place where you can pick up valuable skills, network with people. If you can, use your current employer to help you learn new skills. Are there certifications you can learn there, like operating a forklift? Lots of factories could use a forklift driver. Can you learn how to balance the cash drawers? Bam- a skill you can put toward a new job as a bank teller. Good luck.

    3. NaoNao*

      A lot of people are under the mistaken (oh so mistaken) impression that the lowest person on the totem pole is somehow able to affect the slightest change in the store conditions.
      I wanted to scream at people who called “my” agents in the overseas call center I worked at and yelled at them for not being American “YOU DID THIS TO YOURSELF BY INSISTING ON THE CHEAPEST POSSIBLE GOODS AND SERVICES!”
      Maybe give them a rueful smile and say “I hear you. I would love some help too. We have 4 people to cover 12000 square feet and sometimes our customers fall through the cracks, unfortunately. But here’s the phone # for the corporate office if you’d like to talk to someone who might be able to change that.”

      1. Charlie Bradbury's Girlfriend*

        Yep, there were so many times when customers would complain to me about corporate policy, and I would just stand there and nod. In my head: “If I had the power to do anything about it, do you think I would be down here shooting the breeze with you?”

      2. zora*

        [HEY AMERICA,] “YOU DID THIS TO YOURSELF BY INSISTING ON THE CHEAPEST POSSIBLE GOODS AND SERVICES!”

        I edited yours a tiny bit but I completely agree. This drives me nuts on a regular basis.

    4. Jillociraptor*

      I don’t work in retail, but I do take a lot of phone calls with people who insist that “NO ONE WILL HELP ME!!!!!” This usually means, “I want something unreasonable and I’ve been escalating it through the ranks because people keep saying no.” I understand that I’m the one on the phone, so they have no one else to be angry at, but it has definitely taught me to think for two seconds about what the person I’m frustrated near is really responsible for and able to change.

      Sorry you’re experiencing this. I’m sure with the holiday season around the corner this is likely to get worse before it gets better, but I hope it does get better!

    5. Ramona Flowers*

      Tip from an ex-retail worker: you can take the wind out of their sails with a bit of empathy, even if you don’t really feel it. I’m so sorry, it’s frustrating, etc.

  108. Gail Davidson-Durst*

    I keep reflecting on that Mika chick who was so upset about cutting her hair, and it keeps making me angry! First let me say I completely acknowledge how jarring it can be to radically change your look, and it’s a major pain in the ass to grow out a short cut. BUT, I was freaking BALD for about 9 months due to chemo, and I a.) never cried at work about my hair or anything else; b.) spent about $200 total on four different cute wigs.

    I don’t believe in the Suffering Olympics, and everyone is entitled to feel upset over things less dire than cancer. But I think this demonstrates just how much of a histrionic drama llama this lady is, that she was ostentatiously grieving at her coworkers and somehow spent a vacation’s-worth of cash on a single wig! Ugh, I want to shake her!

    /rant

    (As far as we can tell, 2.5 years out, I am fine – yay science!)

    1. fposte*

      Or maybe she had cancer young and has found growing her hair out subsequently to be a comforting pushback. Or maybe she was always told the only thing pretty about her was her hair. Or maybe her husband is cheating on her and she hoped the change would keep his interest, but it didn’t.

      Sure, she’s not dealing optimally, but it’s too easy for it to seem like superficial drama when it’s just a few words on a website and we don’t know what’s driving her or what kind of grief she’s feeling.

    2. Manders*

      Hurray for science! I’m glad you’re doing well.

      I was wondering if something else was going on with Mika that the letter writer didn’t know about. That reaction was just so extreme and over the top, and it sounded like she was having some problems with stuff like her marriage and her body image that went beyond a regrettable haircut. Not that it makes her behavior acceptable, of course, and it’s not anyone else’s job to swoop in and fix whatever Mika was secretly grieving.

      1. LCL*

        Yeah, I read that letter and felt really bad for Mika because the hair thing seemed like a symptom not the problem.

        1. paul*

          Either there’s some real *something* going on, or she’s an inveterate drama llama. I mean, dang.

          To me it’s almost inconsequential though, because you can’t really tolerate that for long at work.

    3. Emma*

      Congrats on your remission! I’m almost two years cancer-free over here and was also bald due to chemo. I actually never really stopped working, I managed a combo of working from home and in the office while I was in active treatment… and yeah, I don’t blame you for getting angry about that story because I dealt with making decisions about wigs, caps, and so on in real time with coworkers. I never cried at work about my hair! And it was devastating at the time since I’ve always loved my long hair.

      I’m in my 20’s and it sometimes takes EVERYTHING in me not to suddenly yell out at friends and coworkers when they moan and groan about what seem like the easiest problems in the world now to me. I think it’s just another “benefit” of survivorship. I have good days and bad days. A friend was complaining about navigating dating recently and I was about ready to unleash a torrent of “really?? At least you don’t have to decide when you break the news that you’ve had cancer!”

      1. Not me*

        I’m a two time cancer survivor [also in my 20s] and I have never once had the thought to yell at someone who is upset about an “easy” problem they are dealing with. It’s not the Olympics and people who have suffered more don’t get medals. Other people can have problems, it has nothing to do with who had cancer or any other kind of suffering. I would be miffed and roll my eyes if I saw anyone do this. Being a cancer survivor doesn’t give you the right to decide what things other people are allowed to be upset about.

      2. Wow*

        Just wow. Doing stuff like that makes survivors look bad. Having had cancer is not an excuse to be bitter. And there are definitely others out there who have it worse than you, and I’m sure you would hate to be called out when you have a problem that feels awful to you. I can’t believe I just read that. That is a really poor attitue to have.

      3. Gail Davidson-Durst*

        I’m glad you’re doing well, and I totally get it! It can be hard to be unreservedly empathetic after being through a literal life and death situation.

        I hear what people are saying about this lady probably having some serious other stuff going on in the background, but I guess I’m not the right person to summon a lot of sympathy for barfing it all over the office. I do wish her well though.

        1. Ramona Flowers*

          I don’t understand this idea that anyone has to be unreservedly unempathetic. You don’t. You can just notice how someone is feeling and care, or not.

      4. RJ*

        Psht, really? Imagine having to decided when to tell your parents (and other relatives) that two of their children were murdered by someone they trusted and loved. That is so much worse than your problem /s

        I bet it’s not so fun when you are on the other side of the really.

    4. NaoNao*

      I get it, but there’s no scoreboard in the sky for behaving yourself. “Virtue is it’s own reward” means just that. You did the right thing, for you. And you can genuinely pat yourself on the back for that. But most people are really wrapped up in themselves and aren’t like “Well, 3 years ago my coworker lost all her hair and didn’t shed a single tear so I better keep this disaster to myself.” Nah. I agree Mika is a drama llama for sure, but it’s not a contest.
      Congrats on being cancer free though!! :)

    5. another Michelle*

      Congrats on 2.5 years!

      I agree with you, I felt annoyed on behalf of Mika’s colleagues (especially Nina). At the end of the day, Mika chose to cut her hair. No one forced her to do it and it is awful that she blamed Nina for a decision she had nothing to do with. Her decision to chop her hair was her own and no one else forced her to spend the vacation fund behind her husband’s back. Whatever is going on, Mika sounds like trouble.

  109. CoffeeLover*

    My father is a technical expert in his field, who has recently decided to pursue contracting work. He’s an engineer by training and I’m in business, so he’s come to me for some advice although I know very little about this transition (I’ve never worked as a contractor and have never had to pursue my own clients). I know some of you work as contractors with your own clients and I was hoping to get some advice from you for him. I’ve included more details and some questions below, but honestly, I would like to hear any advice you have about building your client list and developing your own contracting business.

    The details:
    My father was laid off during a serious downturn in his market, so he’s been unemployed for a while (~1yr). He’s very skilled (and I believe should rightfully call himself a subject matter expert) in his very technical field. This is both a positive and negative. The negative is that employers are unwilling to hire someone at his skill-level given the instability of the current market. The positive is that he’s well positioned to do contract work (i.e., special projects, consulting, training, etc.) He also has some great ideas for a new way of doing something that could save and make companies a lot of money. He has good connections in his field, but is having trouble converting those to paid work. I guess my question is basically this: how do you take a contact and turn that into work? How do you effectively pitch yourself? What “sales” process do you follow and what kind of material do you use? His work is also very technical so I struggle to understand how much information is too much information. If he’s talking to someone high in the chain, how do you pitch an idea that’s very technical?

    I appreciate any insight you can provide. One of the biggest struggles he’s facing is being patient, and I know that’s something some of you have spoken about before when first starting out. I’m trying to keep his hopes up (and to keep him from appearing desperate to potential clients). I would love to hear about how you dealt with this as well.

  110. Teava*

    Two months ago I got a weight loss surgery that saved my life. I kept it very private but my office-mate, overheard me quietly talking about it to a work friend in his office and mentioned it to me a little later that afternoon that he thought the surgery was BS because it’s the easiest thing you can do to lose weight because he watched his ex-sis-in-law go through the surgery and she ate McDonalds every day and still lost weight. I left for FMLA for two weeks and upon my return the entire office was buzzing about my surgery and asking me specific questions about the procedure because they have a family member who was thinking about it, etc. I was happy to answer questions but pretty miffed that it got out to everyone and I’m almost sure it was my office-mate that spread the news.

    Since then, he’s continually referred to it as “cosmetic surgery” whenever the subject comes up or makes comments that push the boundaries…”I’ve lost 2lbs this week! How much have you lost?”…”When are you going to buy new clothes?” These are things I don’t want to discuss with him and I give bland answers like “I dunno” or “Haven’t checked.” This is *definitely* not something to bring up to the boss so I want to take care of the issue myself. I’m not really a passive person but I’m struggling with ways to shut it down in the moment instead of stuttering or answering his questions. Any thoughts?

      2. Artemesia*

        +10,000. or even ‘It is really offensive to constantly focus on a co-workers body; I want to never hear another word about this.’

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      Perhaps you just need to be blunt with him and say something like, “My health is personal and I don’t want to discuss it at work.”

      If he keeps asking, I would just keep saying the same thing over and over again, “I’m not comfortable discussing my health at work.”

      I’ve used that before for my mental illness and it works pretty well. If he keeps pushing after that, I would bring it up with your manager. He’s creating a pretty unpleasant work environment for you. And it is pretty much none of his business to begin with.

      1. Snark*

        I’d be even more explicit. “I am not going to discuss matters related to my surgery, my weight, or my body with you moving forward. Please stop bringing it up or even alluding to it.”

        “Oh, yeah, no, I asked you to stop bringing this up. Please be respectful of that.”

        “I know you recall my asking you not to talk about my body, and you’re still bringing it up. Can you not?”

        1. Peter B*

          Exactly this. And, if that doesn’t work, maybe you really should tell your or his manager; as a manager, this is something I would want to know about so that I could put a stop to it.

      2. paul*

        At this stage I might skip talking to him and just talk to his boss/HR/your boss. IT’s not cool

    4. Damn it, Hardison!*

      That sucks, and he’s acting like a jerk. Shut him down with an icy stare and what Fposte said. (Not that you need me to tell you this, but weight-loss surgery is no joke and congratulations).

    5. Cheese Sticks and Pretzels*

      You can try saying “I do no wish to discuss this and my health is none of your business”. If he continues to do so, go to your manager and tell him you have asked him repeatedly not to discuss this non-work related subject yet he continues to bring it up and attempt to engage you. There is no shame in going to your boss if trying to shut down a jerk like this on your own doesn’t work.

    6. Marian the Librarian*

      Gross, I’m sorry you’re going through this. I’m a fan of the good, old fashioned, “I’d rather not talk about that.” Anyone who pushes back against that is a jerk.

    7. Parenthetically*

      Holy crap, WLS is NOT “cosmetic surgery” and it totally sucks that he’s being such a jerk about it. I agree that a bland, repeated, “Please stop commenting on my body. It’s not up for discussion,” is your best bet, but mostly I just wanted to say sympathies for having to work with someone who is so clueless about the super difficult journey you’re on, and high fives as you keep going down that path.

  111. Banana in Pajamas*

    I’m 24, and currently in a sales support/accounts payable job that I’ve been in for 2 years since graduating college. It’s fine – I’m well paid, have gotten a promotion since starting, and have pleasant coworkers.

    However, I dream of working part time at somewhere I’m passionate about, like animal shelter, and spending the rest of my time with my children (I don’t have any yet, but my husband I plan on trying in the next year!), cleaning the house, and cooking (which I love to do). It’s constantly on my mind. Is there something wrong with me for thinking this way?

    My husband graduates grad school in an in-demand field in 6 months, and will be making about $100k out of school (we live in a low cost of living area). He supports my decisions and would be happy with whatever I decide to do, but I just don’t know if it’d be a mistake to just up and quit my secure, well-paying, boring office job to pursue my passions.

    Any thoughts?

    1. fposte*

      Plenty of people work part-time or not at all and rely on a partner to be the main breadwinner. I think it’s a perfectly reasonable decision to make so long as you’re clear together about what that means to the family financially and emotionally and that you have plenty of safeguards in place (like, life and disability insurance) in case something happens to your husband and you have to support yourself and the kids on your own, and that you’re clear-eyed about what that means to you individually in terms of retirement funds (though you guys should still fund a spousal IRA for you at least) and career possibilities if you need to go full time.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      You only live once. Why waste your time on a job you don’t care for if you don’t need it for your livelihood?

    3. For real tho*

      This is where Lean In, which yes has its problems, can be really helpful. A lot of women plan on stepping back from their career for their children BEFORE they have children.

      I personally don’t think that’s wise…I’d earn all the money you can NOW, and then when/if you do have children, make your move then (if that’s still a change you want to make). Basically: why opt out now? Or why opt out ENTIRELY now? Maybe see if you have flexibility to cut down to an 80% work week, or part time.

      Also, it’s very important to note what fposte said. If you do choose to leave your job, you should ensure you have safeguards in place. Prenups, etc.

      1. Snark*

        Yep. I don’t want to get all Dave Ramsay here, but when you’re 24, you are in a magnificent position to save lots of money. My wife and I spent like 5 years before our son was born living in an apartment, driving old cars, renting (so, no home maintenance or new appliances or whatever) being pretty frugal and minimizing big expenditures….and saving her entire salary. Every cent she made, and whatever was left over of mine, went to savings and investments.

        1. Banana in Pajamas*

          This is actually exactly what we’re doing now. As I actually just responded on another comment, my husband and I are huge Dave Ramsey followers. We both drive old cars that we paid for upfront, avoid going out for dinner, buy our groceries at Aldi, live in a modest, low cost apartment, have no student loans, and no credit card debt. I also have a sister who is a CPA and constantly looking out for what we are investing in, how much we’re saving, etc (which I very much appreciate :) ).

          With that being said, I do understand that this may be a “best down the road” dream to pursue.

      2. Helpful*

        This is a good point, if a sad reality. Returning to the workforce — not by choice, but pressured by circumstances like spouse’s job loss or divorce — can be very difficult. Consider what you might do to keep one foot in, just in case you might need to come back. Might never happen, but you have the opportunity now to prepare wisely. Best of luck to you.

    4. Snark*

      Honestly? I think this is a dream you can and should nurture and eventually act on, but I think it’s a dream that should be deferred a while. I realize that a $100k household salary sounds unimaginably lavish from the other side of that line, but it’s….really not. That’s not saving much for retirement, that’s not saving much for unexpected expenses, that’s not putting much away for a down payment on a house. If you’re working part time, you’re probably into daycare alone for at least $600-800/mo. Kids are expensive. I mean, we were $11,000 out of pocket for our son’s labor and delivery alone. Cars are expensive. Home maintenance is expensive. It doesn’t go as far as you think it does, and the more you have socked away and invested, the more resistant you are to life throwing you a curveball, which will happen.

      And you’re 24. You don’t have much professional experience. Say do you need or want to go back to work – you’ve got, what, a couple years of work experience? Relaunching a career is easier when you can fall back on demonstrated experience and expertise.

      My feeling is that, like the person at the top of this thread, you’re a little bored, you’re realizing that you’re out of college and in the workforce and there’s no next goal or achievement to work towards, and there’s some part of you that’s going “but wait, is this it? Is that all there is?” And that’s understandable, particularly doing what sounds like fairly routine work that doesn’t engage much of your creativity. Eventually, it sounds like you could do what you’re dreaming of. But I think right now, a $100k salary alone makes getting a really solid financial foundation under your life harder than it needs to be.

      1. Banana in Pajamas*

        I appreciate your thoughts! Thanks!

        My husband and I are huge financial nerds and big Dave Ramsey fans. Sometimes we’re probably frugal to a fault. I do realize $100k a year isn’t as lavish as it may sound (which it does sound pretty lavish on the surface after living on my income for the past 2 years!) I will definitely take your comments into consideration. :)

        1. Snark*

          It’s just that….somehow your expenses catch up. It’s so weird. Like, you get a raise, and you’re like, let me light this cigar with a roll of benjamins! And like two months later you’re going “LITERALLY WHERE DID THAT MONEY GO”

      2. Parenthetically*

        This depends SO MUCH on where you live though. Our mortgage payment is less than $500/month in a midsize midwestern city, for example. $100k/year would be a pretty life-changing amount of money for us, particularly since we’ve been living on about 1/4 of that. We could easily throw $40-50k per year in savings, even with a pretty sizeable bump in our budget line items because it’s just so stinking cheap to live here.

    5. paul*

      Why would that be wrong? I’d love it if either my wife or myself could be a stay at home parent (I think I’d actually like being one more than she would too).

      Nothing wrong with that sort of thing.

      1. Helpful*

        Not at all– I think people are saying to make thoughtful moves, not rash ones. There’s nothing wrong with stepping out of a career track; just be informed and thoughtful.

        1. paul*

          oh, of course all major decisions should be thoughtful and not spur of the moment. But if that’s your goal, hey go for it. Work towards it.

          We’re just not in a situation were we have a shot of it; our combined household income is about 60k a year, with me making more money and her having the health insurance that’s worth a damn.

          1. fposte*

            I live in an LCOL area, and there are a lot of people raising kids here on family income under $100k, and I don’t mean just young people who haven’t hit their full earning potential. I think it’s easiest to do it if you *are* in a place like this, where the Joneses are going at a speed it’s easy to keep up with.

      2. ThatGirl*

        Nothing wrong with it. But I do think some women (and men) don’t realize how it could affect them in 10, 20 years. Once your kids are grown what are you going to do? If you’ve been out of the workforce that long, it might be hard to get back in. What if god forbid your spouse dies young or you divorce and you have to go back to work? I don’t wish those things on anyone but it’s something to think about. Like you said, thoughtful.

    6. Anion*

      I’ve been a stay-home mom for sixteen years (I’m a published writer, too, but being a stay-home mom gave me the time and freedom to start writing) and I LOVE it and have since the day I left my last job. I’m going to disagree (somewhat) with the others here; I think it’s never a bad thing or bad idea to focus on one’s family, and IMO raising children (once you decide to have them) is the most important job in the world. I am the backbone of my family. I am the one who enables my husband to focus 100% on his work, and enables my children to have a happy, secure environment to come home to every day. My husband and I are both extremely happy with this arrangement; it’s improved our marriage, which feels like a true partnership in which I handle the “support” tasks and he does the other stuff. His career has advanced in part because of what I do.

      I am, I hasten to say, in NO WAY saying that everyone’s marriage should be like mine or that mine is better or anything of that nature. What I am saying is that fulfillment and happiness are not only to be found in work that earns a paycheck. We made a lot of financial sacrifices because we both felt that having a parent stay home with the kids was the best thing, and we both agree that we wouldn’t do it any differently if we had the chance.

      Having said all of that, I agree with the others that you should stay and work as long as it’s feasible/you can stand it/until you actually get pregnant. Save as much as you can! You’ll be glad for it later.

    7. Airedale*

      Great points all around. I’ve wondered about this too, since I’ll be in a similar situation once my boyfriend finishes grad school, although older.

      I lean toward the “keep working” side, especially before your husband settles into a job, and really gives it enough time to see if he’s happy there, it’s the right fit, etc. If you quit working and HE wants to change jobs and you have a child to support, that’s so much pressure on him and stress on your family.

      But whatever works best for both of you, of course. Good luck!

  112. AnotherLibrarian*

    How do people get motivation to look for work? I’m pretty content at my job, but I am getting to the point where I’ll be doing the same thing for the next ten years if I don’t find something else. I’m struggling to find the motivation to continue looking for jobs. My field is narrow and very competitive. I love where I work, but I know there’s no promotion path here and I am far from family which I miss. So, any advice on how to do the job hunting slog when you like what you do and where you work would be appreciated.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I hate change, so I definitely feel this.

      Right now, I’m not actively looking, but I do have my settings on LinkedIn to signal recruiters that I am open to new opportunities and I take a look at the job postings they send me a few times a week to see if anything catches my fancy.

      My goal is to find something that is a good fit before I get to the point where I *need* a job. I am content where I am for now, but there’s not really any opportunity for upward mobility so I decided that I was going to keep my eyes open and not stress myself out.

  113. Anion*

    Okay, the question a few weeks ago about raffling off PTO, and the “ethics” of office raffles, contests, etc., made me think of this one.

    I worked at a large, professional call center for a major corporation. They had contests all the time. One of them was that for every whatever-it-was (I can’t remember now) you did, you got to spend X amount of time in a money box–you know, one of those glass boxes where you get in and cash blows around you, and you get to keep however much you can grab?

    So here’s what happened. We had two shifts in that office. 9am to 6pm, and noon to 9pm (evenly divided, as in, about half the floor worked one shift and half the other). The managers decided that the 9am-6pm people would go first–about fifty people in all.

    They ran out to the bak, got a bunch of cash, and got started. The cash they brought back was mostly twenties, fifties, and even some hundreds. So 9-6 shift people were walking out of the box with, in some cases, three or four hundred bucks–the average was about two-fifty.

    They finally finished the 9-6ers and realized the machine was low on cash, so they went out and got more (I bet you can see where this is going). We noon-9ers lined up for our turn, and realized that the cash in the box was mostly ones, fives, and tens, with some twenties and nothing bigger. The average “winning” for our teams ended up being around $40.

    We were, as I’m sure you can understand, pretty upset about this. It seemed pretty patently unfair. It wasn’t our fault they let the 9-5ers go first, and it wasn’t our fault the 9-5ers were better at catching flying bills than the managers thought they would be. Many of us discussed amongst ourselves how this did not seem fair at all and we were not being given the same opportunity as the earlier teams.

    The main department manager was furious about this. She called us all into a meeting the next day to yell at us for how “ungrateful” we were, and how she was so angry at our “childishness” and “selfishness” that she’d actually yelled at her kids after work the day before, because she couldn’t get over our horrible behavior. She said they didn’t *have* to do these contests for us and we should just be grateful that they did without “whining” about how much we actually won. (We were grateful, we just thought if they were going to do contests they should make sure they were fair.)

    This has actually kind of bugged me for years (it was one of many reasons I hated that job and that company); I don’t mean I’m still stewing over it, just that when I think about bad jobs or things about that job that I hated, it’s an incident I remember.

    WERE we being selfish and ungrateful? Or did we have a legit complaint? What would you do, if you were a manager or an employee in that situation? Does the fact that an office has contests mean they have no obligation to make the contests fair, and employees should just be “grateful” to have them at all?

    Honestly curious; like I said, I’ve thought about this a few times over the years, and the “raffle” question made me think of it again.

    1. Banana in Pajamas*

      If I were in your situation, I’d be upset, too. Of course, everyone should be grateful to HAVE the opportunity to be in the money box. But, with that being said, everyone should have roughly an equal shot at getting the same amount of money as the next person.

    2. Colette*

      You were being ungrateful, and you had a legitimate complaint.

      The first shift got more, which was unfair. But none of you were owed anything. The company should have planned better and distributed the money (or chances to get money) equally – but this is the kind of thing where complaining too much means they just won’t do it again, and you’d be out the little money you got.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      I see a lot of parallels between that and when you find out your co-worker, who does the exact same work as you do (and not better either), gets paid a lot more. It’s not fair, it feels lousy, but … you already knew work and life isn’t fair.

    4. JulieBulie*

      Ha, so she blamed you for making her yell at her kids? Ugh.

      Honestly, I find the money box concept really distasteful. I don’t think it’s amusing to make people scamper and claw for cash. It is not consistent with treating employees with dignity. So the whole thing seems tacky to me.

      And offering bigger bills to the people from one shift than the other shift – extra-tacky.

      There are better, fairer, and more dignified ways to have a “contest.”

    5. The Strand*

      I think it was a demeaning practice, and it was unfair to your shift. If you’re going to share resources, you share in a way that makes everyone feel equally valued. To me, this is like the “executive washroom”. I wouldn’t want to work anywhere that the people who already have a lot are given more than those who are poorer. (I only recently found out about an imbalance in my department like that and it definitely got me job-hunting. No, it wasn’t about salary.) And you have nothing to do with whether your boss yells at her kids or not.

  114. Detective Amy Santiago*

    ANONS who worked for a Scientology company!

    Was there a lot of pressure for you to take courses? Did they offer regular health insurance that included mental health coverage? What percentage of the staff were practicing Scientologists?

    2. Anons*

      “Was there a lot of pressure for you to take courses? ”

      So, no, not really. However, their entire work and management philosophy was based on works of L. Ron. Hubbard so it could be there was overlap between the work training through HR and whatever it is they offer at Scientology centers. There as a lot of jargon, but it was really just keeping detailed metrics of productivity.

      “Did they offer regular health insurance that included mental health coverage?”

      I don’t recall if the health insurance included mental health coverage though I would assume if it could have been excluded, it would have been (I don’t know if state law mandated any particular parity for mental health at the time). As an aside, members were adamantly opposed to a proposed tax law to fund mental health programs and put lawn signs in front of the parking lot opposing the law.

      “What percentage of the staff were practicing Scientologists?”

      I don’t know the exact percentage. At the staff level, it was not that high and was kind of clustered (like no one on my team, but everyone on another team, or members would not be on a team and just kind of have special positions reporting to a high level manager), but management was probably like 70% and executives, all but one.

      1. De Minimis*

        Was it a situation where a person could work there and not even be really aware of the Scientology connection?
        But it sounded like it probably would be difficult for someone to move upward if they weren’t a Scientologist.

        Having the work and management philosophy based on Scientology principles honestly doesn’t seem that different from companies that try to operate according to whatever management theory is popular at a given time.

        1. Anons*

          “Was it a situation where a person could work there and not even be really aware of the Scientology connection?”

          Nope. You could interview there and not know it (I didn’t), but once you get there, it’s clear really fast.

          “But it sounded like it probably would be difficult for someone to move upward if they weren’t a Scientologist.”

          Yep.

      2. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Thank you for answering questions! I am absolutely fascinated by Scientology.

        Were they really open about their beliefs? (I’m guessing so, since they put signs on the lawn.) Did you primarily service other Scientologists or deal with the general public?

        1. Anons*

          “Were they really open about their beliefs?”

          Yes, in the sense that some of the ways they did things were driven by their beliefs. They were big believers in taking vitamins and had a table with bottles of vitamins available to anyone who wanted them. High level execs would be gone for weeks to a couple months for religious education in Clearwater, FL. The signs, as mentioned. The link between their approach to work and management and L. Ron Hubbard was express.

          “Did you primarily service other Scientologists or deal with the general public?”

          They served organizational clients in a particular industry. The actual work was unrelated to the church.

        2. De Minimis*

          One of my favorite podcasts, Oh No! Ross and Carrie, had a series where they went “undercover” as Scientology converts [basically walking in and trying to sign up for courses. It seemed surprisingly hard to join, I think they are wary of people. The podcasters were soon found out, but it was an interesting series of episodes, and they actually got further than I thought they would.

  115. Pancakes*

    When to call about a job interview?

    I applied to a job a few weeks ago through a job posting site using an online portal. A bit later I received a response through the job site asking me to do an assessment and turn it in (again, through the job site), which I completed.

    On Wednesday, I got an email from a person at the company that was sent through this same job site saying that they would like to schedule an interview with me and they would be in touch directly to schedule it. I replied back saying that I would be happy to do an interview and I’d be on the lookout for their follow up.

    It is now Friday and I haven’t heard from this person about scheduling an interview. I realize that it hasn’t been very long, but it seems odd that they would reach out to say that they wanted to do an interview and then wait to schedule it. I’m a little bit worried that an email has gotten lost in the transition from the job site to direct email contact (my last name, which is part of my email address can be difficult to spell). I checked my spam folder and everything.

    I can’t find contact information for this person (I only have their first name from the email they sent through then job site), so it seems that my only option for following up would be by phone. I realize that that is super annoying and that most companies do not want to get calls about job openings, but I’m not sure what else to do.

    How long should I wait to call? Give it a weeek from the original email? Or longer? Does it seem normal to send an email about an interview and then wait several days to actually start to schedule it?

  116. Anon!*

    Office Space Drama!

    So a year ago I was shuffled from one kinda crappy office space to another kinda crappy office space, except this new one was slightly larger and was “designed” to accommodate two people. The second work area was tiny though, barely enough space for a laptop and chair… and it turns out that there is no plan for me to share this space with another person. So I mentioned the possibility of having the furniture rearranged (it’s bolted down) to my boss, who was receptive and gave me permission. The new arrangement would prevent people walking by from seeing my monitors, important since I sometimes work on “secret” projects.

    The furniture has been rearranged and my boss HATES it. When she saw it she called me into her office and explained that the new arrangement has “bad optics” because my office is too large for one person. I’m a little flummoxed by this because I didn’t select this office and had her explicit permission all along. The best I can think of is that a lot of bulky storage was removed from my office and now it *looks* bigger than it did before. And… my boss does have a smaller office, though she’s in a much quieter part of the building and arranged with grandboss to not switch offices during the last shuffle so she could have privacy. The rest of us are in an open-air environment.

    This is mostly a rant. It seems like things have blown over… my office is staying as-is for now. There is another shuffle happening sometime next year so I tried to patch things up by suggesting a larger, private space that will be coming available that she could move into (not that I have any authority on the matter!) and that I could move into her old office, mentioning that I thought she deserved more space than she had. That seemed to help a bit…

    … but I was just curious if anyone else has weathered this kind of office space drama before? Do people really harbor lifelong grudges over this stuff? I’d care less if it wasn’t my boss!

    1. NaoNao*

      My ex was a facilities manager and at least half his day was fielding complaints and tantrums from grown people who “needed” to have their office changed NOW. And/or people who were upset about someone else getting perceived perks. We were in a huge facility with two floors and tons of free space and free cubes, and still people spent a tremendous amount of time and energy on office arrangements.

      1. Anon!*

        Oh man, you just reminded me of how inept people seemed during the last office shuffle. I was the only person on my floor that moved all my things! I felt so terrible watching the facilities people move small boxes around all day.

    2. Enough*

      Absolutely. I was involved years ago in laying out my husband’s office when there was a bit of a reorg. The people who were moving into the office and losing their windows were almost apoplectic. These were cubicles that were along outside walls. Those who got those did so by position and seniority.

      1. Artemesia*

        People spend most of their waking hours in their workspace. Of course they are going to be miserable when already miserable space gets more miserable or new clever office designs subject them to noise and interruptions that make it hard to work or miserable conditions imposed on workers by managers who have nice soundproof offices with windows.

        1. I get that*

          Government agency and only the top two offices had offices with doors in an adjoining section. Everyone else had cubicles. But less than two years later it didn’t matter any more as there was a fire and due to environmental concerns they tore the building down and built a new one. When they moved in there were even fewer cubes next to windows. And while everything was new there was less privacy (lower walls),smaller spaces and more restrictions on personal touches.

  117. Stuart Smalley*

    So. My department recently had a staff meeting about some company administrative stuff. Everyone was expected to attend. Invites were sent out. I was not on the invite. Normally, I would assume this was just an oversight. There’s over 20 of us, so it’s not out of the realm of possibility that my name would be accidentally left off.

    However, the person organizing the meeting is someone with whom I have an awkward relationship with. (She’s senior to me though not my boss) We typically manage to hide the awkwardness when stuck in elevator together or something. (We talk about the weather or kids) But I have always gotten the impression that she’s not a fan of mine. And truthfully, I don’t trust her (I think she’s willing to throw people under the bus if it will help her advance). It feels silly to call her out on one instance where she left me off an invitation, but I’m worried it could happen again. Although I found out in time to attend the meeting, I may not be so fortunate next time.

    1. Kj*

      I’d call it to her attention in a way that assumes she forgot. Maybe have a coworker forward the email invite to you, then you email the organizer with a “hey, I think you left me off off of this! I’m coming though, as this seems really important!” That way you give her a heads up you noticed, but aren’t implying she did it on purpose. Noticing may decrease the behavior in the future. If it doesn’t, that warrants a talk with your manager. I had a co-worker who delighted in treating my poorly at my last job, but I talked to the manager about it and made it clear that I was not ok with the ways I was being treated. It mostly stopped as my manager addressed it (she didn’t want to lose me). You may need your manager on your side- if this behavior persists, call the pattern out to your manager.

  118. The Other Dawn*

    No question, just wanted to share.

    Last week we had a small panel discussion and the guest of honor was one of our executives. He was there to talk about his career path, education, current job, leadership, etc. as part of an ongoing series. One of the topics that came up was “finding your passion.” As we’ve read here many times, most people work because they need to live; they may enjoy their job, but aren’t passionate about it, or they may hate it. So, he said that he told his kids when they were young to “forget all the BS about finding your ‘passion’. It’s overrated.” He said to find a job that makes them money so they can live, and to do something they’re good at. Typically when you find something you’re good at, you tend to enjoy it.

    I have to say, it was such a breath of fresh air to hear an executive say that. I spent so many years wondering what I want to be when I “grow up,” that I spent a lot of those years being miserable at work. Everyday was a love/hate relationship with work, and the pendulum swung back and forth a lot with the same frequency. Now that I’m in my 40s, and thanks to reading AAM, I now know that most people don’t find their passion and get by just fine. And I’m OK with that.

    He also talked about joining associations, charities, etc. when he was younger in order to get ahead. Yes, he believed in the causes and did a lot of good, but he made no bones about it that mainly it was a way to get to meet people, be known in the community, learn as much as he could, etc. so he could further his career; doing good in the community was a bonus. When he talked about this aspect of his life, I could tell the people in the room were a bit taken aback by it and didn’t know what to think; it’s not often you hear someone say that they “did all this for self-serving purposes, but while I was at it we managed to get a community cleaned up.”

    It was enlightening and refreshing to hear an executive talk so openly about his life and career. I’ve heard executives talk about the same things at previous companies, but it always seemed like the same old, same old: find your passion, work hard, play hard, give back to the community, and learn as much as you can. I mean, this guy said a lot of the same things (except passion), but somehow it just rang truer.

    1. Kj*

      I know most people don’t have a passion for their jobs, but I have to admit, as someone who does and still finds work hard some days, I want people to know that passion is great, but even when you have a passion for your work, it doesn’t mean everyday is a walk in the park. I LOVE what I do. LOVE IT. It is both meaningful and fun. But some aspects of the job still are not fun. Some aspects of the job are still not joyful. But that is OK. That is normal. I have a job that makes me happy 80% of the time. That is a better ratio than most people get. But I don’t expect 100% joy and that helps too.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Yes, I have yet to meet someone who is passionate about it 100% of the time. 80% seems pretty good to me.

        I’m not passionate about my job, or my career, but I enjoy it and I’m good at it, and I’m definitely paid well for it, plus I like the company, boss and most of the people. I think even if I found something I actually love, I would still be someone who works to live. I just don’t enjoy having to be somewhere to do something for a certain amount of time five days a week. I do it because I need to eat and have a place to live.

    2. Mimmy*

      Thank you for sharing this Dawn. I’ve been racking my brains trying to figure out how to find a job/career that incorporates what I’m passionate about even though what I’m passionate about is in a very niche field that’s probably extremely difficult to break into. A definite wake-up call for me as I try to figure out if I should stay where I’m at for a bit longer or try to find something that might not fulfill my passion yet allows me to do more of what I’m good at.

  119. Help with Fellow Contractor*

    So I just started a new job. Really, I am a contractor, working at a facility with other contractors. We set our own hours and days, but get admit support from people employed by the company we contract with for appointments and general office tasks (faxing, billing, etc). One of my fellow contractors (let’s call her Amanda) is VERY negative about the office staff. She is certain the office staff is cheating her out of jobs (we get paid by the job and jobs are assigned by the admins).

    Part of the problem is she doesn’t have specialties the way many of us do AND she doesn’t always do a great job with her assigned jobs, so they tend to end earlier or get assigned on to someone else when they aren’t progressing. Amanda is very resentful whenever someone else has plentiful jobs and is doing well. I am doing well right now, as are a few others and Amanda will get very upset in the break room when she sees someone else is being assigned jobs she wanted or thinks she deserves. She then blames the office staff and talks trash about them, which isn’t fair- they just want to assign the jobs to someone who will do them well. I am caught in the middle because she is resentful of my success and I like the offie staff, who do a generally good job.

    I am trying to disengage from her, but I sit near the break room and she always wants to talk to me. I’m happy to talk to her about things other than her complaints, but we start talking about underwater basket weaving and then she veers the conversation to how mean the office staff is and how she deserves more jobs and more money. I try to walk away from that, but it is hard because we are usually talking at my desk. I’m trying bland phrases and saying “you should talk to the office staff about that concern” but it has little effect. Any better phrases to use when she starts going off about the office staff? I can use “I have to get back to work” but it doesn’t seem to work as well because she just stays near me and complains.

    1. Starley*

      I found asking them “what are you going to do about that?” was more effective than “you should talk to Arya about that.” It puts it back on them to be solution focused. I’ve also gone to asking them not to as a favor to me – basically the “it’s hard for me to get through the day when I start thinking negatively. Can you help me out by letting up on the venting?” It’s a pretty soft way of going about it, but that’s been effective for me. Only with one person did I have to resort to bluntly saying “I understand your experience with Arya hasn’t gone well, but that’s very different from mine and I can’t help you or continue listening to this. Let’s change the subject.” As a surprise to no one but her, she was fired shortly after we had that conversation.

  120. Definitely Not Mickey Mouse*

    I saw a sleeping rat by our front door as I walked in to work this morning. *shudders* Luckily I seem to be the only one who’s spotted it, and we have property management here taking care of it. Even our property manager walked right by it coming in and missed it.

    Coworker reported that when they went to remove it (we all thought it was dead), it jumped up and ran away. Ew!

    And bonus question! How early do you submit requests for vacation? I booked a room for a year from now at a very popular vacation destination (I had to book now because it will sell out soon at my price point). I know my PTO will be approved, I’m just not sure when to submit it.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      Whenever I want a day off that I feel I HAVE to have because of a special event, destination, or just because, I book it as soon as the PTO is loaded in the HR system for the new year. So usually the first week of January.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I book time off as soon as I can. Usually that’s within 6 months or so. But if you think they’ll take it now, submit it now.

    3. paul*

      It’s really weird for the rat not to have noticed y’all and scurried; usually they’re pretty sensitive to stuff like people coming and going (ones that aren’t, get eaten/killed).

      I’ve had everything from bull snakes to a coyote (!!) get into places of employment over the years, but that’s part of where we live. I usually get a kick out of the, but the ‘yote made a mess and animal control wound up shooting it and testing it for rabies.

      I submit my request ASAP if I know we want to make plans. I’ve got one in for March next year right now.

    4. Snark*

      Above and beyond the inherent grossness of rats, the fact that it was sleeping is kind of concerning – it should have been running away, not snoozing gently. Makes me wonder if it was sick.

    5. AvonLady Barksdale*

      When I worked for a big company, I would submit asap. I think we could do a year out at most, maybe 6 months? I didn’t worry about approval except around certain dates, and the one time that was an issue, I presented it to my manager before I submitted.

      At my current company, I usually just book, mark the time off, and tell my boss. If there’s a date I know I will have to have off, I mark it asap, but I usually don’t say anything more than a few weeks out. We don’t have a centralized system or anything, so it’s less formal.

    6. Overeducated*

      When I worked for a job where coverage mattered, I submitted requests as early as possible. We usually had the holiday leave negotiation conversation around September.

      Now I have work to get done but none of it is public facing, so I am a lot more lax about it as long as there arw no conflicts. I took a day off 2 weeks ago on 3 days notice (*cough* out of town interview), which would never have flown at my old job.

  121. Jenna P.*

    I need help figuring a problem out. My husband was recently laid off from a job at a small company where he worked for 13 years. Because this was a small company, he performed a wide variety of roles and has a manager title. So the upside is, he has experience doing a wide variety of things. The downside is that his boss refused to keep up with new technology. Husband has practised with software and programming and things on his own time, but no practical experience in a work environment.

    So the problem is this, he appears overqualified for jobs that contain some of the tasks that he has done before at work but are less tech heavy because he has “manager” in his title, but he is underqualified for the work that is more tech heavy, even when it relates to the tasks he has done before, and even if he has knowledge of the software/programming languages because he has no practical work experience with them.

    I have been helping him find jobs and reviewing his cover letters for him, but I am not sure how to help him structure his resume/cover letter to get around this problem.

    1. The Strand*

      I think a good solution is to have two resumes, for two different kinds of positions – unless he knows he only wants to take one path. And another thing to consider: does he want to be a generalist again? To know just enough. Those positions exist at big organizations and companies, too, usually because the skills are not somehow seen as professional. My boss’ predecessor, for example, was famous for custom building and managing unique programs that had nothing to do with the mandate of the department. He wanted to be liked and to be helpful more than he wanted to be efficient, I guess. Higher-ups valued the skills but didn’t see them as part of an actual career path. But the ones that are highly specialized want – highly specialized – and your husband will have more trouble with those types of hiring managers, who want something they can plug in, fast.

      If he wants to continue to be a highly technical contributor and not just a manager, I would join Lynda.com, watch YouTube videos, participate in Reddit’s various IT-how to communities (such as the one for people who want to be system admins), and start filling that gap.

      I think this is a good question for SusanIvanova and other IT people here to discuss, but my feeling is that most people in IT respect more whether you’ve actually accomplished something, even if it’s nontraditional in scope. So if you did a volunteer, open source project using Ruby on Rails or SQL, and you really know your stuff, you’ll be welcomed into the highly technical jobs more than if you have a “manager” job title and don’t know how to answer even the softball questions.

  122. For real tho*

    Any advice? My boss recently (like, mere weeks ago) announced his retirement for later this year. I’m his #2. It’s unclear whether I’ll be promoted into his role (our c-suite is notoriously bad at decision making). I know I’m valued here, but the fact that it’s getting more and more clear that I’m NOT being considered is really turning me off.

    I’ve been casually exploring what’s out there for about a year now, obviously well before I knew my boss was retiring. As fate would have it, a recruiter reached out literally a week before my boss’s announcement, and now I’m heading to a fourth (!) interview for a job I would be thrilled to take. (Lateral title, more money, broader industry that is exactly where I want to go!)

    I don’t like the optics of quitting for another job just as my boss has announced he’s leaving, too. I don’t want people thinking I can’t hack it here without him (though I know that’s dumb, I’ve been here for 8 years and have risen through the ranks nicely). I also don’t want people to think, “Oh, she didn’t get promoted when her boss left so she’s quitting in a huff.” Which isn’t something I can control, but it still bothers me.

    I guess I’m looking for any similar stories, commiseration, advice, reactions. I worry about the team I’d be leaving behind, since they’d have a serious leadership gap if I were to leave. (Which I will do if I get this offer.)

    The timing on this is just so incredibly weird. Any thoughts?

    1. Kj*

      I think you are OK to leave and that no one is going to think that you “couldn’t hack it” without retiring boss. I think it is also fair to say that you are turned off by not being considered for replacing boss. That isn’t leaving in a huff. Leaving in a huff would be leaving after the new boss was installed because you weren’t him or her. But leaving because you aren’t being considered is you weighing options and valuing yourself. I’ve left a company because I wasn’t going to be considered for the next job in line and everyone got that- I wasn’t being valued and I value myself. So I left and now make more money and have more freedom. Value yourself and embrace this opportunity if you want it. I don’t think anyone will think badly of you for doing so.

    2. nosy nelly*

      Honestly I think the only thing that would be universally seen as “leaving in a huff” would be if you are vocally or visibly bothered by any of the current circumstances. If you’re going off to a new job, no one knows when that process started on the back end, anyway–maybe you started looking before you knew about the retirement, for all your coworkers know! Do what is best for you and don’t let it get you down, they’ll figure out what needs to be done (as long as they all “can hack it” :) )

    3. The Strand*

      People won’t necessarily think you can’t hack it, they might think that you were seeking a different environment. I think “hacking it” comes into question more when a group of people go to another company, and even then I think “loyalty”, “excellence in working together” is a more obvious answer.

      As far as the team you’re leaving, build some turnkey solutions for them, and if you can, identify who would make the best leaders to step up.

    4. Artemesia*

      No one is going to think you can’t ‘hack it’ and most people are going to assume that you saw the handwriting on the wall of being passed over and were smart enough to take care of yourself, which it appears you are.

  123. YRH*

    Any tips for a third round/finalist interview? I’m worried about being repetitive. The interview is with two people–hiring manager and hiring manager’s boss. Hiring manager has already interviewed me (with other people from the department) but boss has not. Thanks!

  124. BookCocoon*

    Grieving this morning over my decision to find another job. I’ve been at this organization more than four years now, and I really love it. Most of my friends work here as well. However, I got a new supervisor about seven months ago and she’s just truly awful. Every interaction with her ends with me being criticized, blamed, or ordered to do something I’m already doing, and she seems to reflexively disagree with everything I say. I documented and brought my concerns to our director, and for six months he was very supportive and said he saw a lot of the same issues with her, that he was trying to find new strategies for coaching her because nothing seemed to be working, etc. Then about a month ago he must have had a realization that nothing was going to work and he didn’t want to have to do the work of actually having hard conversations and considering letting her go, so instead it turned into everything I should be doing — essentially confronting her about her behavior and telling her how it made me feel. So I tried that for a month and it went disastrously, no surprise. I reported back to him, and he said that since all the things I reported happened behind closed doors, and from his perspective she was doing her work, there was nothing he could do about it. I told him I couldn’t be in this situation indefinitely and that I would be looking for other work. I applied for one other job at the organization and was interviewed but not selected. There’s nothing else open that’s a good fit right now. So I’m going to be looking elsewhere. I’m really sad about it but I also feel some peace of knowing that nothing’s going to get better here and that at least I can make a clear choice on my own terms now rather than waiting around to hope something will magically change.

    1. Kj*

      No advise, just sympathy. I recently left a job I was really attached to, working for a cause I believed in. I left because I wasn’t being treated with respect and my time there was affecting my physical and mental health. Still, leaving was HARD. I had friends at the job. I had purpose. I have those now too, but I felt lost for a while. It is hard when we have to leave a place where we were comfortable. But it is needed sometimes too.

    2. Artemesia*

      I had a job like this and outlived the new guy, but it was hell. It is probably smart to take care of yourself here. Sometimes there is no understanding it. After one meeting where the guy lit into me publicly for a stupid idea (that he himself proposed and implemented two weeks later) one of my peers commented afterwards ‘you must remind him of his ex wife or something, that was insane.’ There is nothing you can do about here and your grandboss has let you know he doesn’t care enough to act. Good luck on a new position.

  125. Maybe Okay*

    I am having serious issues with an upcoming job change, and I don’t know if it is normal. I’m taking a position in a new industry, with a promotion in money and responsibility. I’m always on the verge of a panic attack now, and I have never had such issues before. I am always anxious about my performance though. The job is really aligned with what I want and what I do, but every inch of me is screaming RUN. I am convinced that the hiring manager made a mistake and that I will too by taking the job. Is this a normal way to react to such a large change? Will it go away? I am not generally a fearful person.

    1. Kj*

      Sounds like a case of imposter syndrome. Yes, this is normal response to change. It will likely go away. Give yourself some time to adjust and the feelings should pass. If they don’t, you might consider talking to a therapist about it for some coaching on how to handle the imposter syndrome. But I suspect the feelings will pass before it comes to that.

  126. Tris Prior*

    Just a rant. My boss went on vacation and left me in charge, despite me being the most junior member of my team. He’s been back for a week and a half now, and my co-workers are STILL coming to me instead of him with questions that he really should weigh in on (but that I had to field as best as I could while he was out and unreachable).

    I’m getting really good at “you know, I’m really not sure of the answer, but I bet Boss probably knows.” But – seriously? He’s back, he says he’s caught up, he’s very kind and approachable, he encourages us to ask him questions. Why is this still going on? Go away!!

  127. rldk*

    I’m at a point where I can’t tell if I’m at b-eating-crackers level with my manager, and I would love y’all’s insight.

    My manager has this way of making a request that drives me absolutely batty. We have a cube farm office, so normal communication is talking over the cubicle walls. When she wants a specific task done, usually an admin type ‘print out this document so i don’t have to’ thing, it is almost 100% of the time phrased:

    “Would you be so kind as to do X, if you wouldn’t mind”

    The amount of softening in that one request just irks me – it’s not a favor I’m doing for her, and no matter how she softens it, I don’t have a choice to say no. It feels condescending! I thought it was just a verbal tic but then I noticed a pause after “do x” and then “if you wouldn’t mind” added on.

    I really can’t tell if other issues I have with her are coloring this, or if I am just at the BEC stage and I need to remember that.

    1. nosy nelly*

      I have a similar irritation with coworkers (and sometimes my spouse!) saying “do we want to ______?”

      I don’t know what we collectively want! What do *you* want? Are you asking me to do it? Are you abdicating responsibility for the choice? This is not a useful turn of phrase, though I think (as your manager is doing) it’s often an attempt to soften a request.

      No advice, just chiming in while I side-eye those guys and their Triscuits ;)

      1. rldk*

        I honestly understand “do we want x” more – I have used it with my partner when it’s definitely a decision that needs to be made together and I am not overly tied to either having x or not, so I can’t come out and say “I want x, do you/are you on board with this?”

        But I commiserate with your frustration! Argh!

    2. Parenthetically*

      I wouldn’t call that BEC stage, but it may be sliiiiightly irrational since so many people have different preferences about how they prefer to be asked that it’s impossible to please everyone. Like 50% of BEC. Would there ever be an opportunity for you to say, “Hey, I really appreciate your effort to be polite, but you don’t have to go out of your way. I’m happy just to be instructed in what I need to do! *big smile*”?

  128. nep*

    Job searching.
    I keep going back and forth between ‘At this point I’ll take absolutely anything’ and ‘I’ve got to stick with my goal to spend my skills and energy on something that matters to me.’
    I’m also seeking temp jobs, which would be an answer to this dilemma.
    I hear about people sending out 400 applications before landing something (post above) and it’s all I can do not to completely lose it.

    1. Database Geek*

      I am currently in the same boat … should I go for something that is only part time / much lower pay then I was making before or keep looking for what I want to be looking for…

      1. nep*

        I’m currently leaning toward take absolutely anything that will bring in some money — I can pursue what I’m passionate about in other ways…
        I think today I’ll apply for a handful of ‘absolutely anything’ jobs.

        1. Database Geek*

          Yeah it’s probably time to start doing that myself. Better to have something than nothing after all. Good luck!

    2. Parenthetically*

      Oh ye gods, my husband is in this same boat. So hard. We are just subsisting on my part-time paycheck. It’s not great.

  129. wirving*

    I recently realized I want to move to a new city across the country for quality of life reasons. I’ve never moved this far post-college, though, and I’ve also never moved for the specific purpose of moving to a city – only moving for jobs. I don’t plan on moving for another year or two, so I know it’s still kinda far away, but it feels overwhelming to think about. Can anyone in the commentariat share their experiences with this? Notably, what it’s like to look for a job in another city when you don’t live there yet?

    Thanks y’all!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve made three cross-country moves, and I can tell you job-searching remotely stinks, and most places definitely prefer local candidates (wouldn’t you if you were hiring?). That said, if you’re persistent enough, it usually can work. First cross-country job I moved for was a total fluke… an employer took a chance on me. Second one I had the “My spouse is going to grad school” card working in my favor. Third one I had enough experience and a definite tie to that area so moving back wasn’t as difficult.

  130. Final Pam*

    No question, just wanted to say that I’m starting a new job next week after being unemployed for 6 months! I’m so grateful to all the resources on AAM, especially about cover letters and salary negotiations. It’s going to be an adjustment to not keep checking the site during business hours :P

  131. Artdrone*

    I work at a tiny and understaffed small business, and I am the only person who works on all three of sides – office, warehouse, and retail. To put it simply, it’s a constant balancing act of responsibilities. My schedule changes dramatically – sometimes I’m in at 8:30, sometimes 1pm. I’ve left as early as 3pm and as late as 10pm. This can all happen in the same week. My days off are also constantly shifting
    It doesn’t seem like it’s going to change soon and the inconsistencies are starting to affect my personal life – mainly I’ve become REALLY forgetful. Does anyone have advice about how to live with such an unpredictable schedule, or how they’ve approached a manager requesting something change?

    1. NoodleMara*

      It sounds like you need to find an organization system that works for you, like a planner or to do list or something.

      For me, I’m a sales support staff but I’m in charge of prioritizing my own schedules and my boss isn’t any of the sales team. I started tracking everything. Every single thing. Whether it’s on paper or phone is up to you. Personally, I use my phone and OneNote with a weekly to do list, because I have a lot of factors that cause things to change within a week and I don’t work in an office most of the time. I’m on the road in my truck.

      If I get a call about something, I put it on the list immediately and then go back to my tasks, unless it’s a higher priority.

      I also started tracking all of my personal life things as well. I’ve got a calendar app and OneNote to track things like appointments but also my grocery list and random thoughts I have.

      That might not work for you, but I’d definitely look into something like that. I don’t know about the manager thing, this was just the best option for everyone and it’s worked well because I am independent and decent at tracking things.

    2. Fellow Traveler*

      Definitely have a calendar. I have a schedule that changes constantly too (hours and location) and I put it in a google calendar. Bonus that I can share the calendar with my husband so he knows as much as I do. At the beginning of each week, I sit down and look at the week ahead, so I know where I need to be, when I need to be and when my day off is. I find looking at things one week at a time helps to really clarify my time for me.

  132. Venus Supreme*

    After 4 months of using a folding table as a work space (shared with a not so cleanly person) and having zero privacy, no phone, spotty internet… my company FINALLY let us move into our cubicles!!! I’M SO RELIEVED. It’s a far cry from the office with a locking door I had previously, but anything is better than that folding table. It was actually sloping from the weight of two computers on it. I don’t have to hear everyone’s conversations anymore. Given that all 30 of us were crammed into one room like this, you can imagine tensions were high and any crumb of etiquette was tossed out the window. If we had HR, they would’ve had a field day.

    But now… I have 6 feet by 8 feet that is all MINE.
    HA. LE. LU. JAH.

    1. Amber Rose*

      I’ve been dreading this myself, since we’re re-doing all our cubes and I was going to be at a small table in the middle of the production bay. I don’t know how you managed for 4 months, I’ve been terrified of a week.

      They can’t shrink my cube, at least. I have an emergency exit/fire extinguisher right at my cube wall, which enforces a certain size.

      1. Venus Supreme*

        I’ll be honest, at the end of month two I was shot. I had panic attacks about 3x/week. There was absolutely NO downtime available, and my only escape was an hour walk I committed to every day (we still have no designated lunch space…) My boss was taking her frustrations out on me, which further highlighted her preference to my associate. Things are still out of whack in the cubicles, but at least my problem (coworkers) aren’t staring at me every day. And I can post on AMM now :)

    2. Artemesia*

      See this was a crafty move on their part; now your are HAPPY to have a crappy little cube.

      When we retired we moved cities and from a huge 4 bed/4 bath house to a 1500 sqf condo. First we sublet a one bed one bath 800 foot unit while we looked. WE had soooo much room when we moved to the small two bed two bath condo where we live now. Contentment is often comparative.

  133. Green T*

    I’m wondering how others have adjusted to going from salary to hourly when the new law (that never really got passed) took effect. I for one am not enjoying being an hourly employee. Anyone here who has adjusted well? Or not so well? I’m personally finding it hard to get all my work done in 40 hours and I’m trying to get management to move me to salary.

    1. Argh!*

      One of my coworkers got a big raise so he could be exploited without overtime. It’s six of one, half dozen of the other with this situation.

  134. ThatLibTech*

    I feel in a weird place at the moment. Due to budget cuts there’s going to be an influx of permanent library staff back onto main campus, and thus people like me (new hires on project positions with little seniority) are more than likely not going to get contract extensions (which was always a less than 50% chance happening anyways). I’ve already started job hunting and even landed an interview, and it’s great to at least to know people hiring library staff who are employees here are well aware of the current situation and aren’t looking at this like a “job hopper” scenario (not assuming, I was literally told this to my face!). It’s like the worst kept secret in the world …

  135. July*

    I work as a department admin at a university. I’m in a woman in my thirties and am pretty athletic. We have a new instructor, a man in his forties who is new to academia, whose office is across the hall from our supply/copy room. I’m frequently in there either repairing the copier or unloading supplies. If New Instructor is in his office, he -always- comes in to help me out. He particularly can’t stand to see me moving boxes of copy paper around, but, really, he’s happy to move anything or to take a shot at repairing the copier. This is… really, really annoying. I’ve told him many, many times that I do not need help and that it’s my job to do these things. But he always say that he doesn’t mind and keeps on helping. It’s actually not helpful at all. Is there any hope for getting this very nice benign sexist to let me do my job?

    1. nosy nelly*

      Could you say something similar to what you told us? “I know you mean well, but I can really take care of these things myself. Plus, it’s part of my job! If there’s a case where I do need help, I will be sure to ask you. Thanks!” and then take back the box or hold open the door or whatever other physical gesture indicating ‘leave’ you can manage in the moment?

      1. nosy nelly*

        Or at the end throw in “until that time, please let me continue my work independently.”

        1. nosy nelly*

          “until and unless that happens, please let me continue my work independently. Thanks!”

          Gah it must be hard to think of something in the moment, I keep having new thoughts right after pressing “Submit”!

    2. fposte*

      Benign and possibly slightly bored sexist, I’d say. “Bob, here’s the thing; I know you mean well, but it actually suggests I’m not capable of doing my job. I hope you believe I *am* capable and will therefore honor my request that you let me perform these tasks on my own.”

        1. fposte*

          Yeah, I think that would be kosher too–that the point she needs to make is that it’s not just about how convenient it is or isn’t for Bob but that he’s causing a problem that professionally hurts her. Right now he’s feeling good when he thinks he helps her. Not to be mean, but the goal now is to stop that by making it clear he isn’t helping her and shouldn’t feel good.

    3. Amber Rose*

      “I appreciate that you want to be helpful, but actually it’s easier and faster for me to do this by myself. I have a lot of work to do, so could you please let me finish my tasks alone?”

    4. JulieBulie*

      Any chance this is an awkward attempt to be sociable? That doesn’t make it any less annoying, but if he has other opportunities to talk to you away from the supply/copy room, maybe he’ll back off while you’re working?

  136. Kate*

    I’m a public librarian. I spent a good part of today helping a patron apply for a job, and the experience just made me so angry. He came in with a hard copy of his resume, which I helped him scan and attach to the online application. And then he had to enter all of the information from his resume into the online form. He worked away at it for almost two hours before he came back to me to ask for help, saying that he’d never get finished before we close today. (We are open for a very short time on Fridays.) So I sat there and typed his entire application. (He didn’t have a digital copy of the resume.) He’s probably in his late 50s, and has worked in various maintenance types of jobs his whole life. He has almost no experience with computers. From what I could see, he’s totally qualified for the type of job he was applying for, but good Lord. What a barrier to entry. If I hadn’t been able to sit and help him for an extended period of time–and there are certainly days that I’m so busy that I wouldn’t have been able to do it–what would he have done?

    Just a general rant. I find this type of online application to be irritating for myself, but it’s fairly easy for me to manage. I didn’t really think about what a barrier to employment they’d be for people who don’t have computer skills–particularly for those jobs where computer skills aren’t required.

    1. Nanc*

      It doesn’t solve the problem–but thank you for helping this man! I volunteer at our local library and I let the staff know I would be willing to come in extra/different hours to help with this sort of thing. Do you have a volunteer program? It might be worth bringing up to see if you can set days/times when someone is available to help.

    2. July*

      I agree completely with you about the unacceptability of this hiring practice, but I’m really here to say what a hero you were to help this dude out. Librarians are the best.

    3. ThursdaysGeek*

      That reminds me of when I worked for a large corporate farm. Someone wanted to track the work more closely and wanted workers to use an application to indicate what they were working on during various times of the day. Pretty normal project tracking for a lot of us.

      An office worker at the farm showed us very clearly why that would not work in this situation by pulling a time clock card out of the stack. It didn’t have a name, just a lipstick kiss. She said “this worker does not know how to write her name: she kisses her card so she knows it is hers. How is she going to use a computer and fill out all that information that is wanted?”

    4. Chaordic One*

      I understand your frustration at being put in this position and with the potential employer. Reading about how you helped that man gave me a case of the warm fuzzies. Well done!

    5. The Strand*

      Seriously, you are an awesome person. This morning I read another installment of the Washington Post’s series on people who are on disability and not able to work, in very rural, poor counties like Appalachia. It was really dire. All I could think was, “How do we help these people?” Well, you just explained one hurdle we need to work on, and you made a positive difference for him. Thank you!

    6. Kate*

      Thanks for the kind words, everyone. :) I spend a lot of time insisting that libraries are still relevant, so the love is refreshing.

      I have thought a bit about doing a resume workshop, specifically targeted at people applying for this type of job, or for nursing assistant, retail, etc. We’re in a semi-rural, semi-suburban area that still has a lot of factories/manufacturing, and I often see people in here typing their resumes. But the idea of having a dedicated volunteer and times to work with people on the actual application stage is a good one.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Libraries were my favorite place to be when I was growing up. I will always remember the kindness of those librarians.

    7. Kate*

      Also, he offered at least twice to pay me for helping him; I said no, of course. As he left, he dropped a $10 bill into our donation box. I’m glad I was able to help him.

  137. anycat*

    how do you all handle a boss that plays favorites? my current manager puts one of our teammates on a pedestal and seems to ignore the rest of us. boss goes to lunches, takes breaks, and hangs outside of the office with this person. they report directly to boss, and i’m starting to think that there is some blatant favoritism going on. i’m pretty much ignored on a daily basis unless something random needs getting done. i don’t want to sound like a whiny worker bee, but a huge project i was supposed to take the lead on suddenly went to the favorite. others in our department have noticed and have spoken to me about it.
    any advice?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Ooh this is tough.

      If the project thing happened recently, I think you could say “Boss, based on our conversion/your email, I thought I was taking the lead on the Teapot Painting Project so I was surprised when Lucinda ended up taking the lead instead. What prompted that change?”

  138. Ruth (UK)*

    I’m having more of a vent than directly asking for advice here but any advicey suggestions are welcome…

    I’m frustrated with one of my colleagues, ‘jane’ who I occasionally end up alone with in our office (sometimes after 4 or 5pm there is only two people here and it’s sometimes me and her).

    Background: this is a very repetitive entry level (largely data entry) job in a small private company with no opportunity for advancement internally. The job is boring but can be high stress as, though the work is not complicated, there is a high volume and we are frequently running behind.

    Prior to this job, I worked a string of retail and kitchen jobs (initially part time when I was 16-21 and also a school then uni student) and then full time for the first couple years after graduating.

    Jane worked one shop job which she quit after a week and then did some temping.

    Jane frequently rants to me about how much she hates the job and how stressful/awful it is (this is where our previous jobs are mildly relevant as it’s the cushiest job I’ve had so far so I don’t really sympathise on this point).

    She also talks extensively about how unfulfilled she is and how academic she is and how she should be doing a job that shows her academic talent. One thing that frustrates me is she often makes comments or acts in a way to suggest she is saying or thinking ‘it’s ok for YOU (because you’re not academic like me)’ (she doesn’t say this outright but it comes across as heavily implied). She did her degree in a science subject and I did English and it is clear she sees herself as the higher academic achiever due to this.

    (Incidentally, on paper, I am the higher achiever. I had a 2:1 in my degree and mostly As and some Bs at A level. She has a 2:2 and lower school grades than me. To be honest, I don’t think a person’s school grades define then but she is fixated on how ‘academic’ she is (including compared to me) and it grates on me when she goes on about how this job is fine for me because I only did English but unfair for her to be stuck in. We are both in our late 20s.

    In many ways she almost seems to perfectly fit the negative stereotype of the ‘entitled millennial’ and feels she is destined for ‘greater’ things etc. However, she seems to expect these things to somehow fall in her lap as she never actually applies to any other jobs. Just rants to me about how unhappy she is.

    Incidentally, I am actively job hunting and have recently had a couple interviews but no jobs yet. She repeatedly asks me for help revising her CV but never actually applies anywhere from what I can tell…

    Things she’s said to me include telling me that I ‘don’t know what it’s like’ to be in a job that is unfulfilling and/or that doesn’t play to my strengths or show my academic talent, and also that she understands that I may not understand what it’s like to have to do a job you hate.

    She has also said that the job is so easy for me and just generally talks for the whole time we’re alone together about how much this terrible job is making her life hell… I once told her it was not exactly my dream job either and she seemed quite genuinely shocked. She said she thought it was only her who didn’t like it (because of her high academic achieving background etc etc)

    The main reason I’m not hugely looking for a solution to this is, as above, I’m in an active job hunt at the moment so hopefully it’ll be solved by me no longer working with her…

    1. Nanc*

      I know you’re not looking actively for a solution and it’s good your job hunting but you might try some of the oft-suggested by AAM commenters tactics:
      1. Wear headphones (if allowed)
      2. When she rants/makes rude comments/natters on just reply “OK.”
      3. When she starts talking interrupt her with “Sorry, Jane, but I’m really slammed and I can’t talk right now.” “Sorry, Jane, I really have to concentrate on this and I can’t focus if you keep talking to me about non-work stuff.”
      4. Every time she says anything reply loudly and enthusiastically “FISH!” (from the old joke how many existentialists does it take to change a light bulb? FISH!) Actually, that really won’t help but maybe it will reduce stress.
      Good luck with the job hunt. Let us know how it goes.

    2. fposte*

      Good luck in your job search! Honestly, I think Jane’s a garden variety bore and moaner, and in thirty years she’ll be on about “kids these days.” Tuning her out seems a fine short-term strategy; “Sounds like you want to get moving on that job search, then” might also work.

  139. Unhappy friday*

    someone deleted a bunch of info from a database today and now no one can use it until it gets restored. It was an accident but now I’m making it my mission to figure out how we can restrict that particular ability so it does not happen again.

    (Person was not trying to delete anything but managed to take 5 steps out of her way to do it, including a “are you sure you want to do this?” Message)

    1. Starley*

      Oh my gosh, I was the culprit of this one time. I got SO LUCKY because I realized what I had done immediately, and contacted IT straight away. The backups were less than five minutes old and almost everyone had been away from their desks at a big meeting, so restoring was no problem. Policy changes were made (and apology donuts for my saviors were purchased) immediately.

      1. Unhappy friday*

        It happened at 9:15 this morning and was backed up last night so hopefully few changes were lost…but it’s so frustrating to lose access to it. We do everything in the database!

    2. Database Geek*

      Yikes… sounds like permissions need to be changed in the admin area so deleting is not possible for certain users …. The last database I used you had to do this by user type and not by individual user so that might be tricky unless you can add more user types depending on what people need.

  140. Anon for anon*

    So it is coming around to that time of year when my company has the meeting talking about next year’s options and pricing for insurance. For some reason I’m super nervous about it this year? I don’t know why–the laws have not changed (yet…) but there has been so much uncertainty in the market caused by the back and forth over healthcare that I am nervous about how it will impact my insurance. It likely won’t be drastic–employer based health insurance is in some ways more insulated from the uncertainty that is affecting the individual markets–but I can’t shake the anxiety around it for some reason.

    Not trying to start a political debate here, just wondering how other people are handling potential insurance questions/issues for the upcoming year?

      1. Anon for anon*

        And…that doesn’t help my anxiety at all.

        I’ve been at Current Job for a little over 4 years and so the insurance plans offered were already ACA compliant when I arrived. Over the past 4 years our premiums have actually been super stable–maybe 2-3% increases each year. The offering has stayed the same (no changes to the deductible and out of pocket max). I am actually more nervous about changes to the deductible and out of pocket.

    2. Parenthetically*

      We do a Medical Sharing Ministry. They aren’t for everyone but they’re worth looking into. Happy to give more details but we paid nothing out-of-pocket for my emergency c-section for instance.

    3. Anonish*

      With anxiety. New Job offered single paid insurance that had less coverage of meds and would have meant switching several docs, so I declined it and stayed on Spouse’s plan. Then Spouse’s plan announced they are going to a high-deductible HSA plan, and I don’t really know what that is or what it will mean for me, so I’m just having anxious intrusive thoughts to solve the problem.

  141. Mockingjay*

    Story with a Happy Ending.

    TL/DR: It’s been over a year since I left Toxic Job of the Meeting Minutes Saga. Just wanted to say I am doing well in Present Job.

    There have been some hiccups. Current Grandboss is reactive, hot-tempered, and tends to conflate duties; work direction was non-existent or contradictory. 5 people have resigned in 4 months. The rest of the team went to HR and the company director about him, including me. Before I did so, I answered an AAM question: what did I want to get out of this? A: Clear description of my duties and work parameters. (You all know I like working in a structured environment best.)

    And here, dear Readers, is proof that Good Companies Do Exist. Grandboss received a stern lecture and promptly took action to fix the problems. He divided the group into two teams and promoted two staff to run them. He held an hour-long meeting with the entire group with HR present. (Our HR guy is terrific – really balanced at meeting needs of both employees and company.) Grandboss went over the path forward and outlined clear expectations for all. The new team supervisors hold regular meetings to stay in touch with all of us. The projects are running smoothly.

    Grandboss, having finally delegated his duties, seems a lot happier. Our interactions are more frequent, professional, and informative. And to be fair, employee disgruntlement definitely caused some of the discord. That became apparent when two particular persons left, because the work environment calmed immensely immediately after. So the problems weren’t all on Grandboss.

    I did my best to stay above the fray, although I confess I had a few moments in which I channeled all the frustrations and fury of Ex-Toxic Job. The anger altered my perception of an annoying situation to seem impossibly bad. Something to guard against! Fortunately I managed to contain my reaction.

  142. Fake old Converse shoes*

    This week has been a NIGHTMARE.
    On Monday we were summoned to a meeting with project owner on the client’s side, and we were informed that the delivery date was modified by the higher ups. Now we must deliver a working product in two weeks instead of the six that were painfully negotiated or they will rescind the contract on the spot. What’s worse, a potential new hire who was asked to attend noped out of the project as soon as we left the conference room, so now even my boss is staying up late coding like a madman. My coworkers and I are burned out, and some of them are considering their resignation.

    1. Argh!*

      Sounds like calling their bluff on rescinding would have been the best move. I hope there’s a big bonus for everyone who has to do this work!

    2. Fake old Converse shoes*

      TBH, I think it’s better if they do right now, rather than squeeze the life out of us. One of the juniors is close to burnout and volunteered to work during the weekend. I told him he should use those days to rest, but he didn’t pay me much attention. I guess I’ll covering him too in no time.

  143. a girl has no name*

    I wrote about what to expect when working with a recruiter a few weeks ago. Thanks for the help everyone. Another question. He said the hiring manager was interested after seeing my resume and wanted to set up a phone interview, but I needed to formally apply first. I formally applied one week ago exactly and emailed saying I had done so, and I haven’t heard back. Should I follow up with the recruiter on Monday if I don’t hear back today? I have already had to follow-up after he passed my resume along last time. That’s when he responded about applying online and setting up the phone interview. I just don’t want to nag or follow-up too much.

    1. DataMiner*

      Recruiters work for you. You should feel free to follow up with your recruiter (aggressively if needed) and they should be communicating with the company you’re interviewing at that you’ve already jumped through their hoops. That said, I’ve stopped working with certain recruiters because I had to follow up with them too much and they didn’t have it together. Recruiters should be making your interview process as seamless as possible in both the logistics of setting up meetings and coaching you on how to perform in the interview.

  144. Anon Mom For This*

    For those of you who have been able to use their employer’s maternity/parental leave: how difficult was it to use once the baby was born?

    Currently extremely frustrated by the lack of clear directions about whatI should be doing and their insistence on not putting this information on their web site. What little information we have been getting is inconsistent.

    I don’t understand why it has to be so hard.

    1. Book Lover*

      Hmm. I just told my boss when the baby was due, started being careful with scheduling about two weeks out, then called when I headed to the hospital to have the baby. I had 12 weeks fmla, of which 6 weeks was paid by short term disability, if I remember right. Maybe just call HR?

    2. Murphy*

      Ours was FMLA, so I completed all my paperwork well in advance. I actually had a day’s notice before going to the hospital, but all I had to do was let my unit’s HR rep know what day the baby was born and they took care of the rest. Getting the paperwork done and figuring all that out was difficult, but once the baby was born, it was all done.

    3. Sualah*

      I think that’s going to depend a lot on your employer. For the actual leave, literally all I did for mine was make a phone call to the leaves department and say, “I’m on leave now. Baby was born X date and I’ll be taking the full leave period.” But this is truly an employer leave policy, unrelated to FMLA or short term disability. When it was done through FMLA + STD pay, there were a lot more hoops to jump through, from what I’ve been told.

      Maybe your manager can help? If other people on your team have used the leave, maybe your manager has experience with how it works.

  145. Kit Cat*

    Hi all,

    I’m looking for thoughts regarding a retail appearance policy.

    My niece took a PT job this summer as a cashier, and has decided to keep the job through the year (assuming she keeps her grades up in college). She recently dyed her light brown/dark blonde hair to a very dark brown.

    Her supervisor is giving her a hard time about it, citing the employee handbook that states “natural hair colors only” for employees. My niece pointed out that her color IS a natural color. The supervisor is claiming that it has to be HER natural color, meaning that she interprets the policy to mean that people can dye to cover gray only.

    Does this policy interpretation sound reasonable to the AAM commentariat? I think this lady is on a power trip.

    1. Starley*

      It sounds like this lady is having a pretty extreme reaction! I did retail and food service for six years, and that change would have been fine everywhere I worked. “Natural” meant any color in the natural spectrum, so anything from platinum blonde to black was just fine.

    2. Murphy*

      I always assume that generally means hair colors occurring in nature, so no fire engine red, green, blue, etc. Niece’s boss is going overboard.

    3. Elisabeth*

      Wow – that strikes me as truly bonkers. Most people in their right minds would interpret “natural colors” as “anything but neon blue/green/magenta.”

    4. fposte*

      It doesn’t sound reasonable to me, and I’d be stunned if that was the intent of the policy. I don’t see why covering gray would be an exemption unless it’s explicitly stated in the policy–gray *is* your natural color when you go gray. If it’s “You can’t dye your hair” that’s what I would expect it to say.

    6. paul*

      That’s not how it’s been enforced anywhere I work with a hair dye policy (including my current non-retail job).

      It’s always been meant to be any naturally occuring colors.

    7. LCL*

      Supervisor is whack. One argument your niece could make is, her hair really is that color close to the scalp, as it grows out it gets lighter. Besides, how does supervisor know what color is her natural color? Maybe she was lightening her hair when she got hired. Please counsel your niece that if she has found one part time cashier job, she can find another.

    8. H.C.*

      I also side with your niece’s interpretation, too; it just means no hair color that falls outside the natural spectrum (electric blue or hot pink, for example).

    9. a girl has no name*

      I agree with the comments below. It seems silly and was clearly not intended to be this way. I would respectfully push back. “I interpreted that policy to mean any natural color was okay-not that I had to leave my hair is natural color. This took a lot of time and money, and I really like the change-is there a problem the new color is presenting that I could correct in some way? I don’t have the time or funds to change it right now.” If this doesn’t work, like a poster said below-retail jobs are everywhere. I agree, this lady sounds like she’s on power trip.

    10. PlantLady*

      I agree that it refers to colors in the natural spectrum. More important is the lesson that some jobs (and PT retail cashier is one) are not worth putting up with this kind of nonsense for. I recommend that she push back on the hair thing, but if it continues to be brought up, she should move along.

    1. JulieBulie*

      Well, if the baby can make copies, file, type, return phone calls, etc. then I’m all for it.

      Otherwise, a few brief appearances per year until they reach their Terrible Twos, and that’s all. The office is for employees only, and we don’t hire babies.

    3. Parenthetically*

      I bring my baby to work and it’s awesome, but A) I’m extremely part-time, and B) I have a seriously weird workplace and everyone is ecstatic for him to be there. Like my coworkers get annoyed if they don’t see the baby every day. I feel like in a traditional office or with a 9-5 schedule it wouldn’t work without so much soundproofing.

  147. Mel*

    Any business owners here? Specifically any who have purchased an existing business? My husband and I are interested in buying an existing business (what exactly that will be is still TBD, we are in the early stages of talking about this). What do you wish you would have known going in? How did you decide which business to purchase? Any other advice as we talk through everything?

  148. Billingsworth*

    I’ve been thinking a lot about my job choices and mistakes and everything and kind of just feel like venting. I don’t know if I have a question, just vent.
    I want to write. My goal is to write fiction. Up until the end of 2016, I had a great freelancing career that gave me plenty of time to write fiction on the side. It was awesome! But I had just moved to a new home and felt socially starved and I’m an impulsive person, so I applied to a few jobs. I didn’t get any bites anywhere that seemed interesting and I started exploring just expanding my freelancing options, exploring part-time work (either digitally or in-office) and joining a coworking space.
    Anyway. A federal teapot communications agency got in touch and offered me a job. I was really reluctant throughout the whole process, but it happened right at my seasonal downturn happened and it had been a bad few months for me so I wasn’t thinking clearly. But it was a regular salary and great health insurance and the agency works in an area I’m really passionate about, so I took it and told my freelance clients I was closing up shop. I figured maybe a regular worktime schedule would allow some structure I could use to work on my fiction writing without the day-to-day stress of freelance work.
    (Of course, a week after I started, one of my dream companies offered me a part-time WFH job so THANKS, UNIVERSE.)
    I knew from day one it was a bad decision. The people are nice enough, and the benefits are indeed great, but some of the clients are downright awful. It seems to be a place people go to work until they retire, and everyone is REALLY INVESTED in working ALL OF THE TIME. Whereas I find myself constantly bored, struggling to care about anything (I care about the cause but I’m doing a ton of technical and financial writing which, it turns out, I hate). The billing requirement is high and it is expected (but not required) that you be available on weekends and days off to work.
    I feel awful because it’s not like anyone loves their office job, so I should really just suck it up. And it’s not like it’s terrible! I’ve had HORRENDOUS jobs before, and this one is really not that bad. I’m just killing myself because it’s like I took a step backwards in my walk towards my dream goal (fiction) and if I’d just not made an impulsive decision I could have been making significant progress. I was doing it! I had time to write AND I paid the bills! And then I threw it all away.
    I’ve been here a year and I’m miserable. And I feel guilty because I’m miserable! On one hand, I can’t leave: I have one project / team I absolutely *adore*, and I would be broken-hearted to leave them behind, even if everything else makes me miserable. And I have a history of short-term jobs (well, I’ve been freelancing for 5 years, but everything other salaried position has been 2 years or less). To be fair, I don’t ever want an office job again, but who knows what might happen?
    Sometimes people leave here and continue contracting for one specific project, and I’ve kind of been hoping to do that. But with only one year under my belt, I think it’s way too soon to start asking for concessions.
    Despite loving the cause I work for, sometimes I hope that President Orange will cut the budget so that I’m let go, and that is sad. :(
    Signed, miserable and stuck and guilty.

    1. Helpful*

      Sounds like you should rebuild your freelancing clients to the point you can afford to quit, and do so. The project you adore will go on without you; sorry. It doesn’t seem like the pros outweigh the cons here, given where you want to end up. Good luck rebuilding!

    2. Manders*

      I’m also a fiction writer on the side, and something I had to come to terms with this year was the fact that I’ve only got so much writing energy to go around. I couldn’t spend the day writing technical pieces or web copy and come home with enough energy to work on a novel. I ended up finding a day job that didn’t suck away so much of my writing energy.

      Some people can write all day and all evening too, but if you’re not one of those people, that’s ok.

  149. Jade*

    How do you politely tell someone to butt out of your job search?

    I have a friend who’s much older than me. Usually I appreciate her sage life advice, including about jobs when I first started looking. Over time though this friend has overstepped their boundaries and started giving unsolicited opinions on the decisions I’ve been making. She is normally in the loop on jobs I’ve interviewed for because she is a former colleague who serves as a reference for me. Well, I withdrew my candidacy after a few interviews where I realized the jobs were not going to be a good fit. My friend subscribes to the theory that I should take the first thing I can get, whereas I’m sensibly trying to find a job that meets my needs and I can be happy with. It culminated at the point where this friend gave me a rudely-worded email lecture about how my career aspirations were foolish to begin with (a notion all my other friends disagree with).

    In addition to all this, my friend doesn’t really add any value to my job search. She doesn’t have anyone for me to network with, and she’s not tipping me off on unadvertised jobs. She just asks me about job postings in the paper that I’ve already seen because I check the paper every day, and then prods me about whether I’m going to apply. I used to respond honestly that most of those jobs didn’t interest me or I was wildly unqualified for them, and then she’d respond that I should apply anyway cause “you never know.”

    Lately I’ve been careful to avoid talking about my job search with her, and I plan on bringing it up only if I think she will be called as a reference. The problem is she brings it up with me often. I’ve tried ignoring texts where she asks about it, or turning the conversation onto other things, but then she asks why I’m being cagey and won’t talk with her about it. Really I just want her to butt out, but I don’t want to upset her since she’s been a good reference for me. What should I say?

    1. fposte*

      “Jane, I appreciate your help, but I spend so much time on job searching that I’d really like my personal time to be a break from that. Can you honor that?”

    2. Drew*

      “Jane, thank you so much for your help recently. I’ve been getting feedback that I need references who are more familiar with my work day-to-day, so I’m probably not going to be sending more calls your way unless they want non-work references for some reason. I’ll be sure to let you know when I get something new! In the meantime, how’s Charles?”

      If that’s a little too overt, then maybe just “Oh, Jane, I’ve been so focused on the search that I was hoping we could talk about ANYTHING else. How’s Charles these days?”

  150. ClownBaby*

    I’m struggling lately.

    I work in HR and have been pre-screening applicants by phone and then setting up interviews between them and the hiring managers. The past three interviews I have scheduled have been no-shows.

    It’s driving me crazy. The one that was supposed to show up at 2pm today was originally supposed to have her interview yesterday at 2pm. Yesterday she calls me at 1 apologizing profusely saying she can’t make it in because her pet is having surgery and it’s lasting longer than expected. I generally have little sympathy for job seekers who tell me their availability, confirm the interview time, and then need to reschedule, but since the position she was interviewing for needs filled ASAP, I agreed to reschedule for today at 2. She confirmed.

    Today. Nothing. Not even a call to say “Nevermind, I am not interested in the position any more.” I don’t get it. So there she goes into by blackballed list of applicants to never contact again.

    It’s so frustrating because this is the third candidate that has done this in a row. I can understand this happening with more entry-level positions, but this is not that kind of position.

    Is this just part of the process? Are there certain warning signs I should be on the lookout for? Have you ever no-showed a job interview? Why?

    1. voluptuousfire*

      I find that ultimately just happens, especially entry level people. They don’t always have enough professional experience to bow out of an interview.

      I have no showed for job interviews before, mainly because I ended up having the wrong address and decided to forget it once I spent 20 minutes looking for the place. That was years ago, though!

      As a seasoned recruitment coordinator, I don’t think there’s an exact way to predict a no show. You can definitely gage someone’s interest level by the tone of their emails– lots of exclamation points in messages, talking about how excited they are by the role/meeting the team, etc. If they seem not too thrilled (taking time to get back to you, emails are short, etc), that may be a better indicator.

    2. A.N.O.N.*

      You may just have to chalk this up to crazy coincidence. Especially since this isn’t an entry-level position.

      If you’re scheduling in-person interviews more than a day in advance, and you have the extra time, you can try sending a confirmation email to the person a day before the interview, and ask them to please respond to confirm. It might help, though I subscribe to the belief that you shouldn’t need to babysit candidates, and anyone who requires it shouldn’t be hired, anyway.

    3. CDN HR*

      The same thing has been happening to me lately… I think it’s a combo of time of year (people are starting to hibernate?) and the knowledge that they are in a desirable position so they have a lot of options.

    4. Ramona Flowers*

      “I generally have little sympathy for job seekers who tell me their availability, confirm the interview time”

      Is it possible this is coming across when they contact you and that’s why they’re then ghosting?

  151. Boss Treats Young Employees Like Children*

    I’ve been working in a new job for a year, and it’s mostly great. I was hired on as one of the last replacements for several people (all one step below director level) that were older and all coincidentally retired at the same time. I and all of the other “new” (ranging from one to three years) employees here are in their thirties, and, unfortunately, that’s around the same age as our director’s children.
    Our director treats us noticeably differently from older employees and isn’t shy about it. For instance, director will say in hearing of other employees, “Anon and the other new employees didn’t turn in the TPS reports on Friday, but you did, older employee. It’s because you and I are in the same generation.” In reality, director just didn’t communicate to us that they needed the TPS reports on Fridays, but older employee knew that because he had been working there for fifteen years. Director also referred to me and the others at my level as their “children” during my performance review, and has said things like “other employees think you’re intimidating because you’re young and pretty” (which felt super inappropriate). This is really just the tip of the iceberg, and one stellar employee actually resigned in large part due to director’s attitude.

    Is there any way to push back against this kind of attitude, or am I just stuck?

    1. Sled Dog Mama*

      On the being intimidating because you are young and pretty thing. I think the context of that comment makes a huge difference. I’m in a male dominated field and I have been told that some of my colleagues find me intimidating because I am young, pretty, and know what I’m doing. I have heard this from both older women in the field and my male supervisors. To me it has always come across as “be conscious that you may be perceived this way.”

      1. Anon with Ageist Boss*

        I work in a field largely dominated by women, and the coworkers we were speaking of were all women who have a track record of going over managers’ heads to speak directly with director. In fact, this was a problem that we (director and all managers) had spoken about during our very last meeting–the fact that this manager’s employees were inappropriately going over their manager’s head. When I spoke to director about them going over my head about a new issue (despite the fact that I am NOT their manager but in an entirely different department, so they certainly should have come to me), expecting her to redirect them to me, that was her response: “they find you intimidating because you are young and pretty, that is why they went over your head.”

        1. Sled dog mama*

          That’s exactly why I said the context of the comment is important, two different scenarios.

    2. JulieBulie*

      That’s horrible.
      Is there an HR person you can talk to? Considering that someone even quit over this, I think it’s something HR should know about.

      (I can’t swear that talking to HR won’t make things worse. But this is just so abnormal and inappropriate, you should consider if it’s worth taking the risk.)

      For the record, I was once a young employee around people my parents’ age, and no one ever spoke to me this way. And I now work with people young enough to be my children, and I wouldn’t dream of speaking to them this way.

      1. Anon with Ageist Boss*

        I’ve worked with people my parents’ age before, too (who had children around my age), and I’ve never had any issue with it before, either! I think this is just a weird thing with this person, unfortunately.

    3. Argh!*

      I’m currently the oldest employee who reports to my boss, but I’m not the newest hire. For the first few years I had to deal with her comments like “Those of you who remember….” which would be everyone but me. I was also treated in a very patronizing way by some of the long-timers here even though I had directly relevant job experience elsewhere.

      I have no advice, just sympathy. Silently thinking “Just retire already!” at my boss doesn’t change the way she treats people but it feels good.

  152. A*

    2 weeks ago I had a second phone interview with the hiring manager for a position I’m super excited about, with a company I have always wanted to work for. When I applied I thought it was a bit of a stretch position for me, but after talking with them and doing their skills test, I’ve realized its a way better fit than I thought. The interview went so well that at the end of the call, the hiring manager said he was looking forward to talking more, and would have the recruiter reach out to me in the next week to schedule an onsite interview. I do realize of course that this is never a guarantee, but definitely seemed promising (more promising than usual, anyway). Well, almost 3 weeks have past and of course I haven’t heard anything, so I decided to reach out to the recruiter but I received an auto-response saying that the email account was disabled. So… I guess it makes sense that I haven’t heard anything, but ugh. I don’t have contact info for anybody else there, so I just have to wait it out. Its proving impossible to just move on and forget about this one like I normally do when interviewing.

      1. JN*

        Ugh. I feel for you. I had a similar thing earlier this year when my update request to the hiring person went unanswered and it took emailing a person on the search committee to get a different person on the committee to let me know that the hiring person had left right around when I had contacted them and either their email account wasn’t being monitored (I didn’t get an undeliverable message so my email clearly went through) or whoever was monitoring overlooked it. Didn’t get the job, which I was expecting my that point.

        I know you said you don’t have anyone else’s contact information, but have you checked online to see if you can find any info on how to reach the hiring manager you’d spoken with (assuming there’s a company/organization website? A main phone number or email for the recruiter’s office (assuming they weren’t the only person)? Might take some investigative skills to try and ID someone to contact, but someone still at the company ought to be able to help you find out what the status of the hiring process for that position is right now. But that’s not an option, then yeah, letting it go (while much easier said than done) may be the only option.

        1. A*

          Aw man, sorry to hear you didn’t get the position. In my case, the recruiter’s email being terminated does explain the delay, but on the other hand, you’re probably right– if they were really interested they would have made some effort to update me and wouldn’t overlook it.

          The only info I can find is the hiring manager’s LinkedIn profile. It doesn’t have the option to message him, and adding him as a connection probably isn’t something I want to do. In an effort to move on, I did apply to a 2 other fairly similar positions with the company– if I’m lucky enough to have them reach out to me again, I will definitely mention the other position.

  153. Chindana*

    This may be listed somewhere on the website, but I can’t find it. When listing duties at a job, how do you order tasks that you’ve completed in the past and those that are ongoing? Should completed projects be listed first and then ongoing duties or vice versa? What if they overlap? For example, I created a tracking system for the department from scratch and now maintain it. I use it to track elements of departmental work.

    Any advice would be appreciated. I hate updating my resume, but I need to do it for a promotion, so I want it to be as polished as possible. In the past, I mixed the order of former and current duties.

    1. JulieBulie*

      AFAIK there is no expectation that job duties will be listed in any particular order. The ones that are old and in the past, I list last. The rest, I list in their order of importance to me – that is, the ones I want to show off go at the very top.

      1. Chindana*

        Thanks! I tend to be particularly fussy about how things are ordered when I’m putting things together (even when the order is helpful but not super important). This makes sense to me.

      1. Argh!*

        * “The ones most relevant to…” is what I meant.

        And no, I’m not a typist or copy-editor, thank goodness!

      2. Chindana*

        Thanks! Part of the struggle is that this is really me updating my resume so my boss can say, “See, this is what she does. It is well beyond what other people in her position/pay grade do and so we need to create a new position and give her a raise.” So really, it’s all relevant because it’s about adjusting my title and salary to fit what I’m already doing than to get me a promotion to an existing position.

  154. Anon Non-Profit Staffer*

    Hi everyone! Frequent lurker, infrequent commenter here, with a work question/frustration. I work at a small local branch of a national non-profit. We currently have a good team, but we really struggle with turnover in a way that’s detrimental to our cause.

    One of the biggest causes of the turnover is my former boss. She’s difficult to work with, yells at and talks down to people, dozes off in meetings, interrupts people, lingers way too long on topics in meetings, and I could go on and on about all the issues we’ve had with her. Some days she’s also completely friendly and normal, so we’re always bracing ourselves because we never know how we’re going to be treated. A lot of our volunteers have seen what she’s like and don’t want to deal with her, which is detrimental to volunteer recruitment and retention too.

    The biggest problem? She’s our *former* boss. She technically retired over a year ago, and stayed around as a volunteer to finish some projects and do some staff training/write some best practice manuals. It seems like she can’t let go of her control of our organization, and there’s always a convenient excuse (another project, an open staff position, a topic we didn’t get to at our last training) for her to stay for a couple more months. Her replacement is awesome, but it seems she’s being controlled by Former Boss when it comes to major decisions about staff. Our President (above Current and Former bosses in the hierarchy) is close with her and gives her free reign most of the time.

    So, has anyone dealt with anything like this before? Is there any way we can get her to *actually* retire? Any tips on how to deal with this while it plays out? We have a union but they can’t really force our employer to make someone retire, and Current Boss is aware of this issue but hasn’t done anything, as far as I know. I understand that it’s hard to let go of something she’s devoted her whole life to for her whole career, but something’s gotta give.

    TLDR- retired former boss won’t actually leave, is difficult to deal with in a way that’s detrimental to our staff and non-profit mission. Help!

    1. fposte*

      You know the problem is really Current Boss, right? (Unless I’m misreading the sentence about the President, in which case the problem is the President.) “Current Boss is aware of this issue but hasn’t done anything” is a pretty damning sentence for a situation that seems to be destroying morale.

      This might be one of Alison’s rare “go to your boss in a group” moments; certainly somebody there should at least try for a conversation with Current Boss that lays out the fact that not handling Former Boss is leading to Ex-Employees. It may be that nothing changes and that Former Boss is the price of admission; in that case, you’ll need to decide what you want to do, but it’s worth a clear statement about not wanting to have your work lives dominated by somebody who isn’t your boss before more of you go.

      1. Anon Non-Profit Staffer*

        I hadn’t really thought of it that way. I think Current Boss and President are both letting this happen, but Current Boss might be more helpful in changing something. President has worked with Former Boss for 15+ years and they’ve always enabled each other, from what I’ve heard – President likes being hands-off so she’s kept Former Boss around, and Former Boss likes having control so she keeps President around.

        I think many of us have individually gone to Current Boss, but you’re right – a group might be the best solution.

    2. Sadsack*

      It sounds like it is the new boss who must take control of this. I am not sure what you can do about it if new boss isn’t willing to start setting boundaries and making decisions.

  155. Anon this time*

    Had dinner with several coworkers from another team the other night and learned some things that boil down to “the dysfunction in my company is WAY worse than I thought.” We’re all united in our frustration with top management, but it turns out they’re all really annoyed with my immediate boss for exactly the things she has told me she’s annoyed with THEM for. To make it worse, I kinda agree with them about some of my boss’s faults, but I think on others she’s getting blamed for problems she didn’t create. And I think these coworkers’ manager has his own problems with organization and meeting deadlines, but I didn’t really want to set up an us-vs.-them dynamic over dinner.

    I guess it’s good to know my team isn’t the only one who’s frustrated with the way things are going at work, but we see the root causes very differently and I’m pretty sure shoving these managers into a room to duke it out won’t end well for anyone. We used to say “things will settle down once we’re through this rough patch,” but the rough patch has been going for eighteen months with no end in sight, so…

    I definitely don’t want to leave this job – it pays well and I love the work! – but wow, do I not like the day-to-day tension. Just trying to keep my head down and hit my marks for now.

    1. rosiebyanyothername*

      Dealing with some of the same stuff right now… we recently had a new employee start, and as per tradition, pairs of coworkers took him out to lunch. While me and coworker were out to lunch with New Guy, he started up this whole “wow, XYZ at this company is pretty weird” conversation and it was mildly unnerving to hear coworkers publicly disparaging the same stuff I had been unhappy about (mostly the salary, which is objectively crappy). There’s been a lot of tension in my department since our most recent departure, which was pretty mean-spirited, and from the rumors I’ve heard, a “either quit or we’ll fire you” situation. Tension in a workplace, even if people are kind of united in their displeasure.

    2. Argh!*

      On the one hand it’s validating, but on the other hand it eliminates the fantasy of everything getting better if your boss quits/retires/gets fired/dies. If the boss is the symptom, there’s no hope for change.

  156. beep*

    hopefully this is an easy one to answer!

    I wrote up some marketing copy for my company. One of the sentences included the word “comprising”. A manager crossed it out and wrote “comprised of” above it—which is incorrect! I’m… not sure what to do. What would you do?

    1. Squeeble*

      I’d switch it to “composed of” since it’s the structure that your boss seems to like, but is actually correct!

    2. fposte*

      Oh, I feel your pain on this one; I like Squeeble’s solution, since it means you neither err nor defy your boss.

    3. Drew*

      Speaking as an editor, I wouldn’t use the word “comprise” except in the most formal contexts, exactly because so many people misunderstand what it means and they’ll think you’re making a mistake when you aren’t. I recognize this is avoidance behavior that might lead to more advantage-taking down the road.

      In this case, my approach would depend on how much you care about that word and how much supervision this manager will continue to give you. If the precise word is important to the context and you don’t have the authority just to STET the change and move on, you could send the manager a quick “I don’t want to ignore your edits but I think what I wrote here is OK; can we hop on Slack and talk about it for a minute?” note and see if she’s amenable to leaving it alone.

      1. beep*

        Thanks all! I’m gonna rephrase it as suggested and try to cut “comprised” out of my work vocabulary. It does lead to confusion!

        1. Drew*

          FWIW, I hate to offer that advice, because “comprise” is a perfectly useful word for what it means, but so many people never learned it properly that it’s going to keep causing problems. I’ve given up on the correct meaning of “begs the question,” too.

          1. fposte*

            I’ve been running into people who can’t cope with “career” as a verb and keep turning it into “careen,” too. I’m okay with the modern usage of “careen,” but don’t tell me “career” is wrong, dammit!

      2. Mockingjay*

        Ah, compose, constitute, and comprise. I have to check myself on their proper usage more than any other terms.

        Would “consists of” work better?

        Quoting from “Handbook of Technical Writing, Eighth Edition;” Alred, Brusaw, and Oliu; 2006: (my frequent reference! This page is dog-eared.)

        Compose and constitute mean “make up the whole.”
        The parts compose or constitute the whole.

        Comprise means “include,” “contain,” or “consist of.”
        The whole comprises the parts.

    4. Lightly-chewed Jimmy*

      +1 to Squeeble

      A thought too: I was skimming and first saw ‘compromising’ rather than ‘comprising’…which is perhaps not what you want someone skimming your marketing copy to see? (depending on your product…and it did make me take a second look :) )

  157. Co-worker won't stop giving advice*

    I started a new job 9 months ago, I love it, Hubby and I love the area and I could see myself staying here 10 or more years (Day to day of my job is pretty much the same no matter how long you’ve been in it only thing that really changes is if someone is checking over your shoulder or you are checking over someone else’s shoulder).
    After the 14 different places we’ve lived in our 10 years of marriage we have a pretty good idea what works for us and have started working with an architect to get some rough drawings for our dream house, we put an offer in on land last week and have started interviewing builders.
    I have co-worker who will not stop telling me what to do with looking for land, which builders to talk to, what school system I should I be in, and on and on. It’s making me crazy. He’s not my supervisor but he’s the looking over my shoulder one currently. He’s a nice enough guy but he’s very opinionated and asks question that I don’t feel comfortable answering (how much we are paying for our lot, etc.)
    Anybody got advice for a script to tell him I’d like him to stop or ideas for how to let this roll off and not bother me?

    1. Anono-me*

      You could tell him you have realized that building the house will consuming your life if you let it; and that you have decided not to talk about it at work anymore.

      In cases where retribution is not a worry and someone asked a question that is none of their business; I like to respond with “Boy you are really nosy aren’t you!?”.

      Congratulations on the new job and the new home.

  158. ToledoShark*

    I have an interview tomorrow for my dream job (yay!) and the interviewers require me to bring proof of all training/education listed on my application. No problem for college and most of my work-based training however I am ‘missing’ 3 certificates – two for courses that never had certificates and one that I shredded in a blaze of glory when I left a job I hated and was convinced I would never need it again. The shredded one can’t be replaced (I checked).

    So do I Microsoft Paint the most beautiful certificates the world has ever seen or just rock up and say ‘three of the courses were not certified’. Not sure which one looks less bad…

    1. fposte*

      If you go for the Microsoft Paint option, be sure to use Comic Sans for the final touch.

      I think it’s a weird requirement, tbh. Do you have anything–credit card statement, email from course leader–to testify to your participation at least?

      1. ToledoShark*

        Sadly not – they were paid for by my employers at the time so I have no personal link to the trainers/course providers. Comic Sans sounds very convincing ;)

    2. CatCat*

      Do not doctor something up. You’re overthinking this.

      Provide what details you can about the training (when/where/who or what entity provided it/subject matter), explain that two courses did not issue certificates, and explain that the certificate for one course was irreparably damaged and that you checked on getting a replacement and replacement certificates are not available.

  159. Sandra Panda*

    How do you go about getting recognition for your work?

    I have done a lot of hard work, running a project for about 5 years. I never get recognition for it, because there are “project managers” above me who take all the credit for anything good and then slide all the blame for anything that goes wrong to me. I never get control of the project; when a project manager cycles out, some newbie cycles in (we’re on our third), expects me to do everything, coasts on that, takes the credit, and then cycles out.

    I don’t know how to break out of this cycle. People above the project manager seem to think I must be full of it when I try to get some recognition for my work, as if I couldn’t possibly be doing what I am accomplishing. I’m thinking changing jobs is the only option at this point. It happens to me on multiple projects, though, and I’m afraid of it happening on a new job.

    Do normal people regularly have to go around their bosses to get credit for their achievements? Or is this just a hallmark of a set of lousy bosses in a dysfunctional work place?

    1. JulieBulie*

      I don’t know about “normal people,” but I don’t. It sounds like lousy bosses and a dysfunctional workplace.

    2. Mirth & Merry*

      Ugh, I am a project manager and also lend my expertise to other project managers and that is the worst. Overall my group is not like that but there is one guy (looking at you Dave) who loves to point fingers and never takes responsibility but my manager and the rest of us know what’s really up.

      Do you have an opportunity around review time to at least make it clear for the year what parts were your work? Or can you proactively say “here is this great work I’ve done” throughout the duration of the project? I think short of just calling people out and making yourself look not great in the process there isn’t a ton to do sadly. I agree with JulieBulie that it sounds like you might just be on a bad team and though I wouldn’t say it’s uncommon, there are def places where that doesn’t happen.

  160. Purple snowdrop*

    When I leave my husband/get divorced, I want to change surname, not to my birth surname but something similar that I like better.

    But with my current first name, it would give me Unfortunate Initials.

    I’m considering also going for a different abbreviation of my first name. But this would mean changing both Firstname and Surname at once.

    This probably isn’t a good idea…..?

    2. JulieBulie*

      Or is it a BRILLIANT idea??
      No, seriously – why do you think it’s not a good idea?

      Alternatively, you can legally change just your last name, and informally go by your alternative first name. Lots and lots of people do that. Around the office you can sign things with your informal initials – the name most people will know you by.

      You’d still have to use your legal initials on legal forms and such, but how often do you do that?

      1. Bea W*

        All the time when you work in a regulated environment! (I don’t know if this applies to PS).

      2. Purple snowdrop*

        So not the actual names, but I’d be switching from something like Charlie Swift to Lottie Falafel. So if someone wanted to email me… they’d think i was my own replacement? No?

        I am kind of thinking of, in the example above, changing surnames and going to the long version of my first name first, so going from Charlie Swift to Charlotte Falafel, then next time I change jobs moving to Lottie Falafel.

        …. I am sometimes known to overthink things.

        It just feels like… in work, as in life, sometimes people change their surnames. But not so much their first names.

        2. JulieBulie*

          Actually, now that you mention it, that might be difficult. I had a friend who tried to change her first name (casually, not legally) and a lot of people were jerks about it and pretty much wouldn’t use her “new” name!

          Which isn’t to say that it can’t be done, but it might be difficult. OTOH if you tell people that this is part of your efforts to “move on” or get a fresh start after your marriage, they might be more supportive than people were to my friend.

        3. Reba*

          I have a pal who changed their first name legally to a variant of their given name when in the same situation (changing name ‘back’ due to divorce). I think it also helped that she totally changed careers later and was able to start fresh with the preferred name at the new place. Just at the nickname level, I have also moved from going by a variant I’ve always disliked to going by my full name, and I just started introducing as Fullname when I met new people/went into new places. I was challenging for a while when I had 2 part time jobs calling me by different names!

          I see no reason why you should not do this! I don’t think you need to use the “transitional” name if you don’t want to. With people you already know/work with, you could add into an email or whatever “I’m going by Lottie now, thanks for noting it!”

          Good luck. I hope this is giving you something to look forward to, overthinking aside. :)

        4. ..Kat..*

          Would an alternate spelling be available to avoid Unfortunate Initials ? I.e., instead of Lottie Falafel, use Lottie Phalafel?

    3. Venus Supreme*

      My nephew has Unfortunate Initials, and we really don’t think much about it. I would change the name, forget about the initials!

      2. Purple snowdrop*

        Initials get used allllllll the time in our meeting notes, have done everywhere I’ve ever worked.

        1. JulieBulie*

          You can probably convince the note-taker(s) to add/delete your middle initial (make one up if you have to).

    4. Red Reader*

      Change it all, if that’s what you want to do. :)

      Disclaimer: I just spent hours at the social security office last week undergoing my sixth legal name change process, for a variety of reasons (including both marriages and divorces, as well as a first name change). I’m a big proponent of going with what makes you happy – even if the process is fiddly, it’ll end and you’ll have your Name of Choice at the end. (And for me, at least, the only part of it that will cost any actual money will be my passport.)

      1. Purple snowdrop*

        I really want to…. but I also think it’s a really strange thing (for me) to do. I’m excited that after changing so many times you would recommend it! I may talk about it again on the free for all (minus the work part)

        1. Red Reader*

          I mean, I wouldn’t recommend changing it every couple years just for funsies. But I wouldn’t recommend avoiding it just because it’s a pain, if you’d be happier with a different name.

    5. Student*

      On the rare occasion when you need to use initials, throw in your middle initial. That’s what I do.

        2. zora*

          We also use initials for lots of things and tons of people have initials that spell something! It threw me at first, but now we’re all used to it and don’t even thing about it. I’ve worked with BS, MFA, SOL, MRI, GAP. I think you are totally overthinking your initials, and once you change your coworkers will get used to it and pretty soon they will forget they spell anything else.

    6. AnotherAlison*

      No opinion on the initial, but I love the idea of picking a new last name. I have been married for over half my life, and I have some issues with my dad and his FOO and would not want to ever go back to that name. I am not in the situation now, but it’s good we have options these days.

  161. Overeducated*

    I’m trying out an “alternate work schedule,” thinking of switching to o hours most days and every other Friday off…today is the Friday and it feels amazing. We went to a museum this morning, and I am going to get a haircut and still have time to actually cook from scratch. Would it be cruel to leave my kid in day care for an extra hour every day (going from 8 hours to 9, from being one of the first kids picked up to one of the last) so we can have a 3 day weekend every other week?

    Interviewed for another slightly depressing office job next week. It would be an upgrade in benefits and status but I am not very enthusiastic about this whole career track right now. So I’m really counting working a 40 hour week as a blessing.

    2. Nan*

      I don’t think so. How old is the kid? Can you ask how they feel/think about it? Heck, when mine was little, I’d take him to day care on my days off. I needed some me time! I paid the same whether he was there or not.

      1. Overeducated*

        Kid is not quite 3, so not really old enough to understand the question. My coworker with a kid of similar age does the 9 hour/1 day off schedule and she sends him to day care to get personal stuff done too. I might not do that because I feel more in need of kid time than me time right now, but either way it’s about what’s most fulfilling and restorative.

    3. nosy nelly*

      Do it! It’s really common in my metro area and seems like a great idea. (I have too long a commute to be willing to extend my days on such a regular basis but otherwise totally would!) And your kid is getting more time with you on the extra day off…

      1. Overeducated*

        It’s very common where I am too, it’s actually the most popular schedule in the office. I liked being one of the only ones there on the quiet Fridays until we moved into sad cubicles recently and I no longer sit near my Friday-working colleagues.

        I get what you are saying about the commute, that can make a day very long. My commute is pretty good, but the compressed schedule would probably make me more car dependent because the bike commute to day care pickup would be cutting it really close, so I would exercise less.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Sounds like you get more quality time with your kid by having those extra days off than you would by picking them up an hour earlier.

    5. Kathenus*

      Re the daycare – absolutely do it. A friend has one weekday as a regular day off, and most of the time her young kids still go to daycare. That way she can get done things that she needs to, have some personal time, and as Carolyn Hax has referred to it – be a better mom when she does have them by having some time to recharge.

  162. Argh!*

    Shoes without socks or nylons? I find it creepy looking but apparently it’s a “thing.” We don’t have much of a dress code, just to dress “appropriately” for your job.

    I hope winter will put a stop to this trend. I want to ask “Didn’t the homeless shelter have any socks to give you?”

    1. fposte*

      It’s been a thing for decades, so I don’t even notice it. It sounds like your workplace would allow sandals–does this seem different than that to you?

    2. LAI*

      Are you talking about women’s shoes? Almost every day, I wear those no-show liner socks which are designed not to be visible. In fact, if we’re talking about women’s dress shoes, I actually think it would be weird to see them WITH socks.

    5. Lady Kelvin*

      I only wear socks with tennis shoes and I’m so anti-nylons that I’d turn down a job if they required them. But guys? Sure, its weird that they wear shoes without socks.

    6. Argh!*

      Socks with sneakers or lace-up shoes or loafers. Nylons with pumps or other women’s style shoes. Sandals that are clearly outdoorsy sandals are okay without socks but only a few people in low-level back-room jobs wear that. This isn’t Texas. It’s the midwest, and it’s never so blisteringly hot that we have to dress more casually to feel more comfortable.

      1. Reba*

        I definitely wear bare feet in dressy shoes wayyyy more often than I wear any shoes with socks. Boots in winter will help you with this, but yeah. It’s really, really normal. I don’t consider the lack of socks to be more casual, although I can see how in more conservative fields or regions one would expect hose. I sometimes wear opaque tights but have not worn hose since they were required by my high school choir uniform!

      2. AvonLady Barksdale*

        I only wear hosiery with my flats if I’m wearing tights and it’s part of the outfit. Same with heels. If I’m wearing slacks or jeans, I usually go without hosiery. I don’t think I’m unusual, nor do I think I look overly casual. I think you might be way in the minority on this one.

    7. nonegiven*

      I told my sister I wasn’t wearing pantyhose to her daughter’s wedding. “Oh, honey, it is August, neither am I.”

  163. Porygon-Z*

    Hi everyone, I’ve lurked here for years but never posted a comment before. I’ve been thinking a lot about my career this week, and wanted to know how my thought process sounds to people who aren’t me.

    So, I’m a fed and I work on a small team of 5 people. Until this week, we were pretty much autonomous. We were under the deputy director of our directorate, who didn’t monitor us all that closely and didn’t really care what we did as long as the work got done (which it does). This week we got a new manager, who swears she isn’t a micromanager, but judging by her behavior in the first week, it seems like she very much is.

    It’s only been a week of this, but I’m starting to wonder if I should move to a new team. I’m in a recent graduate program that is very flexible about moving to a place that you feel utilizes your skill set. My education and skill set are very technical. I have a Master’s in Information Security and spent all of my schooling doing pretty advanced programming. Currently on my team, I’m doing web development, which still gives me the fulfillment of coding, but is a little “soft” for what I would like to be doing. I did a rotation a few months back in a much more technical team, and I was thinking of returning to them. The learning curve on their work is very steep, and at the end of my three months I only sort of understood what I was doing. But that group has the technical work that I crave, and will also look a lot better on my resume whenever I decide to look for a new job.

    I know it’s a personal decision, but the main feelings I’m grappling with are the thought of letting down my current team, who I like very much even though the work isn’t exactly what I would choose for myself, as well as the optics of leaving as soon as we get a new manager looking bad. I “graduate” from this program in 3 months, at which point it’ll be a lot harder to move around, so if I’m going to do this, it’s going to have to be soon.

    1. Colette*

      Move. It’s a better fit for your career, regardless of your new manager.

      It’s always hard to leave something that will continue on without you, but that’s not enough of a reason to stay. Your coworkers will understand.

      1. Porygon-Z*

        That’s kind of what I was thinking but my less rational side was having a hard time with it. I think I’ll go talk to the new team next week and see if they can get me on board. When I left my rotation they said I was welcome back at any time, so I’m optimistic.

        Thanks for your thoughts! It’s reassuring seeing it laid out that cut and dry.

    2. Overeducated*

      Are you in PMF? Anyway, do it. It doesn’t sound like you will get another better chance to move easily in the near future.

      1. Porygon-Z*

        I’m a Pathways Recent Grad (at least I think that’s what they’re calling them now; the name seems to change regularly). But yeah, I enjoyed my time in my current team but I think my long term career would benefit from moving.

  164. Wannabe Library Employee*

    I have a background in research and I will soon interview for a position in an academic library that will help support students and faculty in their research projects and writing. I feel qualified for the position because they need some with research experience, but I know I will be up against career librarians who might have a lot more “industry” knowledge and experience. Is there anything I should do/know to be better prepared for this interview?

    1. JN*

      You might want to be as familiar as possible with as many different databases and discovery-type platforms as possible, as there can be differences between them. Ditto with the various citation styles that the campus’ academic programs use. Might be a good idea, if you can, to look at professional librarian books on the reference search process. You probably know a good bit of it already, but if you learn the “lingo” for what you’re already doing (perhaps under a different name), then that can help the interviewers know that you know what the position needs to do.

  165. Windchime*

    Alison — Yesterday on the bus, I noticed a woman reading “Managing to Change the World”. I was so happy to recognize it and I couldn’t wait to come back and tell you.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Did you go up and introduce yourself like “OH HAI I SEE YOU ARE READING MY WEBSITE”.

    2. Jacqui*

      I just bought this book – this blog was a key reason behind me buying it. Looking forward to the next one!

  166. Laura in NJ*

    I am still having an extremely difficult time getting interviews. I have read the “do this to fix your resume and cover letter and you will get interviews” link but I’m still struggling with the accomplishments aspect. At my last permanent job, I was the only data entry clerk (no one else would do it). If I ever had any “accomplishments”, they were never told to me. My supervisors were not the “good job Jane!” type of people. You knew you were doing a good job if you still had it at the end of the day (very, very high layoff rate).

    This is what I had listed on an old resume: “Entered technician repair information from cards into company database”. How exactly am I supposed to explain this as an “accomplishment”? I am stuck and would like some help.

    1. That Would Be a Good Band Name*

      Did you do it faster than others? Did you do something that others didn’t? Were you known for catching errors? I know you said no one else would do the data entry, but they wanted you to do it so there had to be a reason. I struggle with this too. Several of my jobs have been ones where it’s not something that lends itself well to accomplishments. It’s not like I’m landing big accounts. I’m just doing a lot of stuff that boils down to data entry and questioning when the numbers don’t make sense.

    2. fposte*

      How many cards? How often? What did it mean to the company to have this in a database instead of on the cards?

    3. Camellia*

      Try using your stats and if you don’t have ones that the company gave you, calculate some yourself. How many cards an hour could you enter? How complex was the data you were entering? Did you tweak the process any to make it go faster, e.g. sort the cards into some specific order? Maybe you have a feel for how many you could enter per hour when you first started, and how many at the end, so you could say you increased your thru-put by X%. When they ask what you did to increase your thru-put, you can mention that some of it was training and experience but you also did such-and-such (tweaked the process).

      Even if you don’t THINK you did any of that, quite often we do these things almost unconsciously and/or discount what we did. Alphabetizing stuff is a good example. I automatically organize data but didn’t realize the impact until college, where a friend asked me to help her memorize a list of artists and their genre. So I put them in alphabetical order and counted them, had her learn them in that order, and then by counting as she was naming them she could tell if she had forgotten any. She was astounded at how quickly she was able to learn the material and it had never occurred to her to organize the data like that to make it easier. So you need to look for these hidden gems that you may do that helps you do your job better. Then quantify them in some way that you can easily explain.

      Statistics and number give a boost to what you are trying to convey. Just be sure you are as realistic as possible in your estimations and calculations.

    4. nep*

      Same here. It’s really tough framing what I did in ‘achievement’ bullet points.
      I’ve not gotten a single call so I know I must once again revamp my materials. I think my cover letters are pretty decent, but resume needs work. (At least it’s improving. Yesterday I looked at one I sent earlier in the year and whoa…what was I thinking?)

  168. miyeritari*

    Throat clearer was in Argentina for two weeks and it was blissful silence and I got so much done. He was back yesterday. Sigh.

    1. Argh!*

      I feel your pain. We have one and at least one person has asked to have his desk moved. I read somewhere that people with OCPD or OCD may have a throat-clearing tic that they can’t really help, like a Tourette’s type tic. I have no idea if she has a diagnosis but I made up my mind that she probably does and that makes it a bit easier to take. My desk isn’t next to hers, though!

  169. Red Reader*

    I am spectacularly lucky in that the worst complaint I can come up with about my job is that everyone’s insistence on using the word “utilize” when “use” would be perfectly suitable (and sound better) drives me buggy.

    (But ye GODS, why do they feel the need to do that.)

    2. nep*

      Ooh I can’t stand that one. I hear you.
      Also ‘in the process of’ (often in writing but sometimes in speaking). Unnecessary. Yank it out of the sentence and see whether you needed it.

  170. Ashie*

    It’s my second October at my current company. Last year I didn’t know the culture so I wore a not-a-costume costume on Halloween (white shirt, red scarf, leather jacket, tan skirt, and boots as a genderbent Negan). Nobody really noticed, and nobody else dressed up. Laaaaaame. This year I’ve decided I’m wearing spiderweb stockings under a regular skirt, the fact that nobody else celebrates Halloween be damned.

    1. Drew*

      I once dressed as a nerd, with a brown check shirt and blue tie, tan cargo shorts, red calf socks, and sandals.

      Lots of my coworkers congratulated me on my thrifting acumen. I didn’t have the heart to tell them that the entire ensemble came from my own wardrobe (admittedly, mostly from the “inactive” section). I just took it as a compliment.

  171. Route4*

    Comments on the epic resignation thread got me thinking. My better half is interested in management consulting but is not sure where to start or where to get more information. He is an engineer and got a professional MBA a few years ago, but most of his classmates are in a different field and not able to suggest what to do next. We’re looking at the upper midwest as our next place to move. Any ideas? Good websites, boards, books, things to do?

  172. Sara*

    Question!
    I work at a very small (4 employees) family-owned business as their marketing manager and in-house graphic designer. An admin is not in the budget, and they have me do my work at the front desk. This means I end up taking care of most administrative tasks because I’m the person who happens to be there. The problem is, these are beyond my actual job description and frequently take away from my actual work.

    My coworkers (one in particular, who I have frequent issues with outside of this) treat me as their admin even though that is not meant to be my responsibility. For instance, I serve as the point person for answering the phone, and in theory should just screen who the call goes to and redirect it. However, whenever I try to get my coworkers to take a call, they fight me on it and try to get me to relay messages back and forth between the client and them. This is annoying, time consuming, and has led to more than one miscommunication (which I later get reprimanded for, even though I was essentially being forced to handle their communication for them without actually knowing what I was talking about). Even when I push back and make them take the calls, it takes convincing and debating back and forth as to whether they actually need to stop what they’re doing and take the call. This debate takes away from my work time.

    I also am treated as a receptionist by any clients coming through the office, which is understandable since I’m at the front desk, but having to stop what I’m doing and tend to their questions and wrapping up the clerical duties with clients for my coworkers once again takes away from what I’m supposed to be doing. Even tasks that don’t take long do take me out of my work flow. Constantly stopping and starting isn’t great for my productivity.

    I don’t really know how to address the issue, because these are things that need to be done by someone, and as much as it doesn’t make sense for me to do these things, it doesn’t really make sense for a client to wait for the appropriate coworker to come to the front desk to have them sign paperwork.

    Anyone have any suggestions?

    1. JN*

      Maybe it will help your case (whatever you decide that to be) to the owners if you take a week to meticulously record your daily activities, so that you and they can see how much of your day is actually spent doing what’s in your job description and how much is spent doing those admin tasks. Then you could take the information to the owners with “I understood I was to focus on A, B, and C, but X, Y, and Z are taking up time. Can we discuss what tasks you want me to prioritize?” Or something like that.

      For the phones, I don’t know what your system is like, but with my office our system lets us transfer the call and we don’t have to wait for the other person to pick up, we can just hang up once it starts to ring. If yours can do the same, then it might eliminate your coworkers refusing to take the calls.

      1. Sara*

        Unfortunately, our system doesn’t allow us to actually transfer the call, we just have to use the intercom to the coworker in question and tell them to pick up the phone.

    2. Mr. Demeanor*

      I think the first step is to pinpoint your your desired outcome. Is it to stop doing the duties altogether, share the duties (i.e. a rotating schedule), hire an office manager, or additional compensation for the work? Once that’s settled you need to present your boss with a firm plan (or plans) to address this issue. Also, what if you go to the bosses and they reject your ideas? Are you okay with things continuing this way long-term?

      In regards to the debating about taking phone calls – a debate can only happen if two people participate. The simplest way to shut it down by saying you’ll take a message and do so especially since there have been instances of miscommunication.

      Best of luck!

    3. Xarcady*

      I take it you have spoken to whoever is your immediate boss about this? Because they are having you sit at the front desk, is it possible they see reception/admin duties as part of your job? I’d get clarification on this. If they do think these are part of your job, then you have to decide if you are willing to continue to do them. Because I’m wondering if the main reason they have you sit there is because no one else will do these jobs.

      Some random ideas in no particular order.

      Can you sit somewhere else? Even just for short periods of time. “I will be working in the back room for the next three hours until I get this done. Someone will need to cover the phones.”

      Stop with the back and forth between the client and your co-workers. Just stop. If you are told they won’t take the call, tell them you will take a message from the client. If they are too busy to take the call, they are too busy to relay messages back and forth. You are busy with your work, too, and don’t have time to spend 15-20 minutes per phone call relaying messages. This is a waste of your time, the client’s time and the co-workers’ time. It is also lousy customer service–which is what you should say when they push back on this.

      Keep track of the amount of time you spend on the phone and dealing with clients who walk in the door for a few weeks. Then go to your boss and point out that rather than spend $$$ for you to do this, it might be more cost-efficient to hire someone, even part-time, at a lower rate of pay to handle this sort of thing. Sometimes when bosses see the dollar cost of a particular decision, their eyes are opened.

      This is a know-your-workplace kind of thing, but if dealing with this stuff means that your own work doesn’t get done, don’t stay late/work weekends to do it. When questioned as to why things aren’t completed on time, point out exactly how much time per day/week you are spending on admin duties.

      1. Colette*

        I like the idea of giving the coworkers the choice – I.e. “are you available to take this call or should I tell her you’ll call her back?”

  173. Me---blargh. :\*

    I got two rejections this week for old applications. One was in L.A.; at least they bothered to reject. The other was in K.C. It said, blah blah we aren’t advancing you for this position (it was a tech writer job that was a slight stretch but not unreachable), and then, “However, we would like to consider you for future opportunities and will keep your application on file. If a suitable opportunity arises, we will contact you.” That’s a mighty fancy way of saying “Your resume will go in a file that we will never look at again and then purge in six months.”

    Someone said, But it could mean they will contact you for something. Well it would have to be better than an admin job. I can move ONE time. I cannot move for an admin job, especially not to stay in this state. If I do that, I will never get out of here because I can’t do that work at the executive level, and that’s the only admin job that pays enough to leave the state.

    F
    M
    L

    1. The Strand*

      What a bummer. Are you in any local groups that tie into technical writing, like STC? Maybe that would help.

    2. Stop That Goat*

      Aww…that’s no good! I’ll keep my fingers crossed. I’m quite a fan of KC myself.

      1. Me---blargh. :\*

        The job market here is very small, and I don’t want to go to St. Louis. I may have to go up there just to get a good enough job that will get me the eff out of MO. I want to move to Los Angeles. I. Do. Not. Belong. Here.

  174. Incognito*

    I start my new job on Monday! I’ve been out of work for two months since I left my toxic job at Toxic Teapots, Inc. I’m leaving the publicly traded corporate life to go back to public grant funded work at a large non-profit, which means taking a pay cut, but expect I will be much happier with that trade off. I will also not reflexively barf in my mouth a little when people ask who I work for. :D It was emotionally and mentally a little tough to let go of my fantasies of paying off my mortgage within five years, but obviously not a deal breaker. I have a real office with a real door and a real window, and I’ve been treated with nothing but respect and openness through the whole process. They also offered me a leadership position in the department as part of the job, and none of the other places I was interviewing at would be able to offer me that opportunity, and I know I won’t be happy for long being just another cog in the machine at this point in my career no matter how much they’d pay or how modern and shiny their offices are.

    One of my co-workers from Toxic Teapots, Inc. also decided to call it quits and is taking the rest of the year to recover before she puts herself back on the market. I also caught up with another former co-worker who independently validated my experience. It was a little bit of a relief to know I wasn’t just inventing this stuff out of thin air, but I feel bad things have fallen apart to this extent.

  175. JulieBulie*

    A few weeks ago, someone in my office (I don’t know who) went out and purchased four cans of air freshener, and put one can in each stall of the women’s restroom. (I know this was a personal contribution and not something from Facilities, because the other restrooms don’t have the spray cans.)

    As far as I can tell, no one is using them.

  176. Trixie*

    For those working in an academic setting, I have a question regarding prior service credit. Is this common? I’m almost at two years years in and almost eligible for tuition concession. Wondering if I’ll be starting from scratch at new University.

    1. fposte*

      In ours tuition waivers and aid are stated as university-specific (though I wonder if you could make a case if you were moving within the state system). Service credit for pension can be transferred within the state system for sure. However, I also don’t think there’s a wait period for tuition waiver eligibility at my employer, so you may not need to rely on existing credit at a new university anyway.

      1. Trixie*

        Within the state system, I think that’s what I’m looking for.
        Follow up question regarding hours within higher ed. At my organization, most of our administrative staff positions are 37.5 hours/week or 7.5 hours/day. Is this unusual?

    2. Student*

      You can transfer credits from one university to another. That’s how 2-year universities are supposed to work, for example, so credit transfers are very common. They may not accept every credit, and they may not all apply to your new program of study, but they should accept the majority of them.

      The money bit is tricky, and you’ll need to dig into specifics with the financials people at your new university.

      1. fposte*

        My read was that Trixie was asking about how long she’d have to work at a university before being eligible for tuition remission, not credits for the courses themselves.

        1. A.N.O.N.*

          That’s my reading as well.

          I think it depends on the University. My University has a one year waiting period before being eligible for tuition remission and I don’t see anywhere in the policy that says if you were eligible at a prior University, you can waive the waiting period (the way you can with the retirement plan). But you can always try asking the HR department of the school to which you are applying.

  177. S.H.*

    Advice for dealing with a coworker who is not my boss nor is she my superior, but treats me as her subordinate? I am on equal standing as her but haven’t worked here as long. We both answer directly to the owners, and there is no overlap between our duties. She often emails me lengthy directives for how I ‘should’ be doing things, and when I push back or say I will take her suggestions into consideration but make clear that they are SUGGESTIONS, she acts as though she has been instructed to me these instructions by my boss. This is certainly not true.

    Complicating things are my boss, who really wants the office to be “collaborative”, yet only instructs people to work together on my tasks, not others’. I work on social media, and I think he believes that social media is easy and something everyone can contribute to, while they do more specialized work. The funny thing is, my degree is actually in the coworker’s field. I am more qualified to contribute to her projects than she is to mine, yet I am not welcome to work on hers. This to me is not collaboration, just giving her license to tell me what to do.

    Honestly, my boss doesn’t like to manage and I think he allows her to do things so he doesn’t have to, but I am not meant to answer to her and if she were to be my boss, I would likely begin job hunting because we just don’t mesh together as people.

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      “Your boss sucks as isn’t going to change” (credit to AMA). I would start job hunting because it sounds like your boss has delegated the task to your coworker — whether it’s currently official or not it can become official in the blink of an eye. You don’t have any leverage to push back on the coworker if the boss isn’t going to tell her to knock it off.

  178. Hermione on Steriods*

    I work in the legal department of a large company that has a tuition reimbursement plan. I already have a M.S. in Organizational Leadership. I have been thinking about getting an MBA/MS in Government Contracts. I want to work as a contract manager. I do a little now, but I’d like more training. My company will only pay for a degree program so I just can’t get a certification. My director mentioned it would be good for me to get an MBA. My question is: will it be detrimental to me to have 3 master’s degrees?

  179. Student*

    Anybody around who knows a bunch about non-resident income tax and jobs that send you to other states for prolonged periods of time?

    I spent over a month working in a specific different state this year. About a dozen co-workers did similar stints there. The state’s tax law says that anyone who works there for 15+ days should have state taxes withheld through their company. If you have taxes withheld, you generally need to file a state return. Our company did not do this. When I asked a couple different people at my company about this, they said authoritatively that I didn’t need to worry about paying income tax in the other state, but they all sounded wildly ignorant about state income tax (or like they are advocating non-compliance because the odds of discovery are low…). We live in a state with no income tax, so there’s low baseline competency about it.

    I’m going to file a tax return in this different state anyway, because I want to be tax-law compliant. Is this likely to cause blow-back for my company?

    1. I get that*

      You can do this but you need to figure out how to prove and only pay taxes on the time you were in the other state.

  180. just popping in*

    Late in the day I know but this is bugging me now, what do you actually write to an acquaintance when you’re applying for a position at their firm? The opening isn’t directly with her so “hey I had some questions” seems like a stretch, but it is in a related department that she may know someone in. Is it too rude to literally say, “hey, how’s it going! I’m applying for this opening, if you know anyone in that department, can you put in a good word for me?”

    1. Kathenus*

      I think letting her know that you’re applying to a position at her firm and would love to talk to her to learn about the culture and organization would be the way to go. If she’s only an acquaintance, she doesn’t really have any standing to put in a good word for you, unless she can speak to your work history or experience that she has personal knowledge of. She might be able to let the hiring manager know that she knows one of the applicants socially or casually or whatever, but actually recommending you might not be appropriate if you’ve never worked together. Good luck.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I had good luck with just writing “Hey, I just applied for X job at your company and wanted to say hi in case we cross paths in the near future.” My acquaintance offered to put in a good word but it was completely up to him.

      Then again, i emailed a separate contact for a different job and asked if he had any general insight on the hiring process and did not get a response.

      So it might be the phrasing or it might be the relationship or the comfort level of the contact in putting in a good word. Or, it might be that the person has no way to influence the hiring process because it’s so far removed (my previous company was like that, all we could do was advise the person to go through normal channels). But I would just stick to “I’m applying to this great sounding job, yay!” And let them choose what to do with that info.

  181. Jennifer*

    I just want to say that we are so short staffed now that there is no way any of us can keep up with the demand. I have avalanches of paper that need to be mailed/processed/taken care of and I don’t have the time to do it, my assistant’s hours have been cut to about 6 a week because she went back to school and also I have to share her, and GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. I simply cannot keep up with everyone’s needs. It’s a shame our office can’t strike (I think we’d all get canned, honestly) because this is just too much and too hard and I don’t know what it would take to get anyone to hire people for public service. A suicidal nervous breakdown?

    1. Kathenus*

      Work hard, do whatever you realistically can, and let your manager know what isn’t able to be done that day/week due to staffing/time limitations. Resist the impulse to stay late, work through breaks or lunch, and ‘find a way’ to get it done, because then the organization will think that staffing is sufficient as is. Also ask your manager to help prioritize what should be done first, since there is not enough time to do everything with the current staffing.

      1. Colette*

        Totally agree. That’s what I’ve been advising my colleagues to do since our team got cut in half. Come in, do your best at a sustainable rate, and let what you can’t get done just … not get done.

  182. Jules the First*

    Things I have had this week instead of lunch:
    Monday: a meeting
    Tuesday: a research project
    Wednesday: an event (no catering!)
    Thursday: a conference call
    Friday: a project crisis

    I need a second in command…

    2. Ashie*

      This is why I always end up getting lunch at 10:30 (because I didn’t have time for breakfast and I’m starving) or like, 3.

    3. zora*

      events/meetings with no food are pure evil, and in my personal hell there is a very special level reserved for anyone who plans a meeting/event with no food.

  183. Margaret*

    I was called in to my manager about my working hours. I’ve never worked less than the 8 hour day we’re supposed to do – but come in early and leave early. We have a flexible policy so I don’t see what the problem is.

    But someone is obviously pissed with it and they’ve reported me to a higher up! The higher up didn’t tell my boss who snitched on me – but I’ve got a really good idea who it is. I want to push this further and find out 100% who snitched on me. Is this something I could take to the union to find out?

    1. LCL*

      You can ask. You won’t find out the answer to your question by any union action. Asking the union will alert them that management is scrutinizing your schedule, which will raise other questions. How official is the flexible policy? Has it been negotiated? Is it in your labor agreement? If the flexible hours policy is between your group and management, agreed to outside of the negotiation process, you all may lose the flex option and be told to work the hours in your agreement. What did your manager say?

      I have gotten very angry about employees in other work groups reporting people in our group for what was described as leaving early/coming in late/ scamming overtime, when we were a shiftwork group and working our scheduled hours. And to add insult to injury, the ‘scamming overtime’ was working scheduled straight time weekend work. Yeah, we were the only group scheduled out of that office that worked straight time on the weekends, some creepo thought we were getting something they weren’t and reported us. Nothing happened, management was wise in that case. Had I been the management, I would have tried to fire the reporter for !@#$ stirring.

      1. Margaret*

        We have set hours for the flexi policy. But I’ve been starting an hour before the official start time then leaving an hour earlier so have done the the full hours I should work. I sorted it with my team leader. My team leader said that the manager just said ‘it had come to their attention’ not who had told them.

        The snitch has screwed me over I now have to start at the appropriate flexi times so I’m gonna have to come in an hour later and leave an hour later. It’s much better starting early and finishing early.

        I am dying to find out and confirm who it was. So union won’t help?

        1. Colette*

          I don’t see how finding out who it is will help you. I mean, it might help you stay angry, but other than that, what’s in it for you?

          1. Margaret*

            Truthfully – I’d like to confirm who snitched me. I think I know who it is but want to confirm it. How can I trust someone that does something like that?

            I think if someone has said something about you you should be able to know who it is and speak directly to them about it.

            1. H.C.*

              I disagree; businesses are not the court of law where you have the right to face your accuser. In many workplaces, anonymous reporting policies are in place so employees can report their concerns without fear of retaliation.

              And I concur with Kathenus below, there’s not much to be gained from this – the issue’s already been brought up and clarified, and if the reporter follows up on it, HR or your manager will have the appropriate reply (issue’s already been investigated // we found no one at fault // etc.)

            2. Colette*

              Ideally, people should bring up issues with the person involved. But that’s not always possible.

              In your case, you don’t know that someone complained. It could easily have been a casual comment with no intent of getting you in trouble.

              But even if it was intentional, all finding gout who it was will do is ruin your relationship with your colleagues. That’s not good for you.

        2. Kathenus*

          I sympathize, but don’t think there’s a lot to gain by pursuing this. The person who said something may have done it maliciously, or may have done it innocently. Knowing who it was won’t change the result, and I’m not sure what type of positive outcome would come from finding out.

          We’ve had similar things at my workplace a number of times – where an area supervisor or manager approved a certain thing (including starting and leaving an hour before the normal shift time) – and when someone further up the food chain found out the practice was stopped. Frustrating, yes; but a reality of many workplaces. It sounds like your team lead allowed you to do something against the norm, without getting approval from upper management. Good news, you got the preferred schedule for a while. Bad news, now it ends.

          I’m not trying to minimize your unhappiness or frustration, but having dealt with this several times lately the lingering resentment and unhappiness of some on the team can be a real problem that affects morale. Since this can’t be changed now that upper management is in the loop and has made a decision, your choices are to accept it and let it go, or look for a job with hours that better fit your needs. Letting it hang on and impact your happiness when you can’t change it only hurts you.

        3. Steward Anon*

          As a union steward, the primary thing I do is hold management to the terms of the contract: filing grievances when management tries to force people to work off the clock, doesn’t allocate overtime equitably, that sort of thing.

          Finding out who snitched on you is not my job.

        4. soupmonger*

          You’ve said you come in earlier than the official flexi time. I can sympathise; I was the boss and the earlier-than-flexi was one of my staff in oldjob so it was ok, but if your situation is being played by the rules you don’t honestly have a leg to stand on. You need to abide by official flexi hours and if your early arrival and departure have been spotted, then you need to stick to official hours. And if that means starting from scratch then that means you need to suck it up.

          Confirmation of who shopped you will do – what, exactly? Let you start a hate campaign?

  184. Epsilon Delta*

    I’m considering looking for a new job because the workload at my current job has become unreasonably high. Last year the department was downsized from 10 people to 5, but the volume of project work has stayed the same – so everybody is basically doing the work of two people. Plus, I have been assigned to take over as the only vanilla teapot maker. The person previously in this role used to spend 50 hours a week just on vanilla teapots, and I’m being expected to do what he did in 20 hours a week (the other 20 hours being my previous “chocolate teapot” duties).

    Can I say either/both of those things in job interviews or does it make me sound like I have a bad work ethic? For the record, until the coworker’s promotion happened, I really enjoyed being busy!

    1. Colette*

      The closest I’d get is something like “my employer is cutting back in my area”. You don’t need to share the details (unless you really don’t want to take a job in vanilla teapots).

    2. MissDisplaced*

      Yeah, I stick with a variation of “There has been a lot of downsizing in my area.”

      But if you like the job, is there a way to set some boundaries? They can really expect the same amount of output.
      If you do take on the vanilla teapots in addition to your current duties, you need to set the expectations, not them, given your department is so stretched. As in: “Given the workforce reductions we can only make 5 vanilla teapot per week, not the 25 that were done with a dedicated vanilla teapot maker.” Is this a temporary thing? Can you bring in temp help? But if the answer is no, yes it’s time to start looking.

  185. Paris Geller*

    A few weeks ago, I posted asking for advice if I should job search because a job I love very, very quickly (we’re talking within less than two weeks), became a job I dreaded going to. There were also rumors of layoffs. Well, instead of layoffs we’re getting to hire more people, but I’m still miserable with a lot of things and have been job searching. Today I got an email for a position I applied for asking me to upload a two minute “video resume” of myself.

    I know this was a thing because I’ve seen questions here about it, but I never expected to run into one in my field! I’m going to do it, because the job does seem really great otherwise (it’s pretty much my favorite part of my current job, but as the main focus of this role), but I’m so annoyed.

  186. NoodleMara*

    I got a first interview with the research division of an Ivy League University in my area of interest!!!!! I know it might not get any further but even an interview is excellent. I have to share my excitement here because my roomie is tired of hearing about it lol.

  187. many bells down*

    I know this comes up a lot, but my husband’s recently been put in the position of managing one of our closest friends. Like, we officiated his wedding-close. “Jim” works in a different department from my husband, but that department doesn’t have a manager right now, so they put Jim under my husband as he’s a programming lead.

    They definitely know about the prior relationship, since my husband referred Jim to the company in the first place. Hopefully this is just temporary because it’s super awkward and we’re not sure what to do about it. Jim and his family live right down the road from us. His wife and I are BFFs. It’s going to be really miserable if we can’t socialize with them anymore!

  188. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    How do you relax after a an excruciatingly really hard work-filled week at work? As in 5 projects+ in 72 hours?

    Tea, book, a walk, watching movies? Need decompressing ideas X/

    2. Overeducated*

      Zoning out reading through the Friday open thread isn’t the BEST method, but its my default!

      If I have the energy, cooking is really good for me – creative, physical, with a satisfying product.

  189. Fresh Faced*

    Hitting a wall when it comes to my job search. All interviews I’ve had have ended up with the company I apply to “going with someone more experienced.” But I’m applying for Entry/Junior roles! I can’t GO any lower, what do you expect me to do?! Going through lengthy hiring processes with art test and interviews just to get to the point where I’m rejected on my lack of experience that they should have been able to discern from my CV anyway is just Argh!

    1. nep*

      So frustrating. Not much consolation, but it is a good sign that you’re getting to the interview stage, I would think. But I hear you. I wonder whether some companies just give that as a stock answer, and that in at least some cases it was not the exact reason. Perhaps a combination of things.
      In any case, good luck. Hope you’ll land one soon.

  190. CEK*

    I am currently in health policy consulting and plan to move to the UK sometime next year. If anyone local is in the industry (or even somewhat related), I’d love to connect with you! I have some general context questions that are hard for a non-UK citizen to find answers to. Thanks!

  191. another Michelle*

    The letter earlier this week about Mika and the dramatic haircut reminded me of the letter about Michelle who was always making changes to her hair (and the rest of her appearance also) in the middle of the workday. I think about that letter a lot, especially since my name is Michelle. Alison (or anyone else), was there ever an update on that letter? Out of all the letters, that’s the one I’m dying for an update on. Thanks!

  192. Stuff*

    Hey, my new job actually has a reasonable, helpful Health and Wellness that doesn’t impose on employees. We simply get double our usual employee discount if we buy a selection of healthy options, while still getting our normal discount on everything else. Just make it easier to be healthy and let everyone decide what they want to do. That’s how I ought to work.

  193. Jessen*

    Bleh. Our manager is doing this annoying “group responsibility” thing. I guess it’s supposed to make everyone work together, but I just don’t think it’s workable, at least not without significantly increasing everyone’s workload. It’s also not helping that it seems like no one can be bothered to actually train people, so things aren’t getting done because no one knows they’re supposed to get done (or some people do but they’re not the ones assigned to that area) and then we get in trouble as a team because they’re not done.

  194. Stone Tablet Resume*

    For various reasons, I haven’t needed to have a resume for almost 20 years. Now that I have occasion to update it I’ve gone through AAM’s archives dealing with the topic, but I have a (minor?) question that I can’t find mentioned. I live somewhere that does not get mail delivery to the house. It’s a tiny town in a tiny county and the USPS requires everyone to have a P.O. Box. Should I list just the P.O. Box on my resume or both the P.O. and the street address? I’m leaning toward listing just the P.O. Box, figuring that I’d list my physical address on various HR forms if I actually get the job. Thoughts?

    1. Daria Grace*

      Unless it’s the convention in your field to do something specific, I doubt it will matter. I’ve never put either on mine

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, I don’t put my full home address on my resume. I just put the city that I live in, my phone number and email.

  195. AnonForThisOne*

    Hi Alison,

    Long-time reader, first time inquirer! I have an issue I’m struggling with in networking, which is an aspect of my job that is required. I have been very active in the local Chamber of Commerce and other networking groups for several years through my company, and I like to think (and have been told) that I’m pretty good at it.

    I’ve run into this problem, however, that I have been unable to solve, even with advice from friends and family. There is a gentleman I have met several times through networking who is crossing more and more boundaries each time I see him. I’ve encountered this before; being unmarried and young has led to a few awkward networking moments when guys of varying degrees of relationship status (single, engaged, etc.) have invited me to coffee to learn more about each other’s companies [insert other generic meeting and reason here], only to reveal they’re way more interested in me physically than professionally. I have always been able to shut this down with “I have a boyfriend,” “you’re engaged, and this makes me uncomfortable,” or by being distantly polite but uninterested to the less obvious overtures. I have learned that being too direct to the less obvious overtures will label me as “rude” or “a bit of a bitch” or “full of herself” within our network which hurts me in my role as a relationship-builder for our company.

    This particular guy is actually friends with my boss. I met him by sending out invitations for an event, when I accidentally used the shortened version of his name that he doesn’t go by. I ran into him at an event shortly after, and I used that opportunity to introduce myself and apologize for the mistake. He actually mistook me for our CEO’s daughter (who is a teenager), and then made a few odd comments about how young I look when I jokingly corrected him. I just thought that he was kind of a quirky guy and thought nothing of it. Our next few interactions were completely normal up until a few weeks ago. When he came up to me to say hi at an event, instead of hugging me like most people usually do, he kissed me on the cheek barely centimeters from my mouth. I get that some people are cheek-kissers when they greet people… But he didn’t do that with anyone else, and I have yet to see him do that to anyone after.

    I think it was pretty obvious that this made me uncomfortable because I stiffened up and moved away before continuing our conversation which he excused himself from pretty quickly. I chalked it up again to him just being a little weird and maybe more than a little tipsy at the event. The next time I saw him, I gave him a distant side-hug when he said hi to me, and I kept my boss in between him and me (or tried to because he moved around my boss to talk to me).

    The following day, I saw him at a morning networking event where he asked me if I was feeling okay. I wasn’t sure what he meant, so I asked, and he said he was surprised I didn’t have a hangover from the event before. Which was weird because I didn’t drink that night, which I told him. He then asked me if I was “like that all the time” which first of all ??? rude and second of all like what? He then went on a weird spiel about how I do a great job and should start my own company, but learn from others’ mistakes, especially others’ mistakes in MARRIAGE so I don’t make my own mistakes. This man, by the way, is married WITH CHILDREN, and knows I am in a very serious relationship with someone I plan to marry.

    At this point, I was completely done with making excuses for him. He’s over the line, and I mentioned to my boss that he was making me uncomfortable, but I don’t think I did a good job making it clear how uncomfortable and how often it’s occurring.

    Flash forward a week later to the present, where we are at an all day event. This man comes up behind me, runs his hand along the back of my shoulders, and then says “I’ll see you later” on his way out during the morning portion. When I do run into him later, with a coworker trying to run interference for me, he goes around our sponsor table, stands uncomfortably close to me until I am unable to move away as I am helping others with the product we’re giving away, and then tries to get me light his cigar for him (by puffing on it myself, which no, just no), and then tries to get me to smoke some. He also tried to get me to talk to him about how my personal life is going (I originally answered just in terms of work), where he immediately lost interest and changed the subject when I mentioned my boyfriend (if only this were a long-term strategy, but alas, nothing dissuades him).

    I have tried polite, but distant. I have mentioned that I am not big on being touched and certainly don’t like it unexpectedly. How can I get this guy to back off without this becoming a huge drama in our community? I am still concerned that a lot of this is just who he is as a person and me misunderstanding/blowing this out of proportion, but that doesn’t mean I want him to continue making me uncomfortable ad infinitum.

    1. AnonForThisOne*

      Sorry!! I originally planned to send this as an email to Alison, but it got so long that I decided it would be better for the thread & with advice from everyone. I forgot to remove the beginning!

    2. Reba*

      Oof.

      I definitely do not think you are overreacting.

      But it’s hard to know what to do now. If you squarely tell this dude to back off, he will lean on a lot of plausible deniability. How will your boss react if you go to them with more concrete complaints/stating more strongly that their friend is being a messy a-hole? How will other people in your wider network react? Will they close ranks around this guy and huff at you for stirring things up when everyone was having such a nice time at happy hour? Do they all already know and expect people to deal with it, i.e. “the missing stair”?

      Who are the other women in this field? (assuming based on the situation that you are a woman.) I think you would benefit from gathering intel from other people who may have been in the same or similar position.

      1. AnonFr*

        You’re right; I am a woman. My boss has always supported me in the past, but this is the first time it was been a friend-ish of his. I feel like he would still support me, but may also err on the side of “just be blunt” without realizing how this could impact not just my reputation as an individual, but also as a representative of the company. Without wanting generalize, I don’t know if men really receive the same sort of scrutiny in this respect.

    3. Kr*

      Well a) you aren’t blowing this out of proportion at all. Just because it seems to be the norm for people to hug and be overly personal for work events doesn’t mean you have to be. I would deflect his hugs and touches with a friendly low key wave paired with a “Hi, how are you?”. If you see the guy, be prepared to have room to side step away from him. I would try to enlist some women and your boss to say, “Fergus has been kind of touchy feely recently and it’s made me feel uncomfortable.” so that at least someone knows you’re not being stuffy or a b!tch or whatever victim blaming women must be accommodating sh!t people say. If he stands close to you, say something like “Excuse me, I need some personal space right now.” He is the one acting like a jerk and it sucks you have to be the one to risk your reputation but if h continues to push you even when you clearly assert your boundaries, hopefully the people around you will see that his advances are unwelcome. Good luck..

    4. soupmonger*

      Is it at all possible he is getting you confused with someone he knows on a more personal/intimate level? This sounds like all kinds of weird and inappropriate, but it does make me wonder if you maybe look like a friend or acquaintance of his that he is mistaking you for.

  196. Jessen*

    I’ve posted this before, but I’m trying to come up with an acceptable response for “why are you leaving your job” and “why do you want this job.” The simple reason is that I think I’m slightly underpaid, and my benefits are absolutely lousy, and I want something I can actually live off of. I’ve been in my call center position for just over a year. The jobs I’m applying for are also call center positions, so I’d be doing pretty much the exact same thing I’m doing now, although probably starting over with a lower responsibility position. So I feel like talking about a “change of pace” or “new challenges” just doesn’t work when it’s pretty clear that new job is doing almost the exact same thing as old job – the scripts might be different but it’s really the same thing, and I don’t think any of it could be called a “challenge” by any stretch of the imagination (unless you’re challenged by following directions). And it’s pretty clear that what I would be applying for isn’t something that could lead to other opportunities in the field in general.

    1. Cruciatus*

      Any thoughts about not applying to other call centers? Maybe office support positions or something. But otherwise, do you know people who seem happier at these other places you’re applying? Why do those other companies seem like a better fit than your current one? Anything beyond the benefits and pay? What about something like “My friend Sansa works at Company X and said she really appreciates how the company values its employees and I feel the values Company X espouses are right up my alley”. Something like that? Just something that is supportive toward the company itself. Or maybe the type of calls would be different (I don’t know how call centers work really, but maybe old company has you cold calling people who don’t know the call is coming but new company has you calling people who are waiting to hear from you). So maybe you would prefer working with customers that way or something like that.

      1. Jessen*

        Most of them are blind applications – I don’t know anything beyond a short posting. I’m really not picky at the moment – the only objection I have is that I can’t actually support myself at my current job and I’m relying on my parents. I don’t like doing that, so I need a better job. Honestly if my benefits weren’t crap I’d be pretty happy at my current job, but high deductible plus high copays plus major health problems means I could rent an apartment around here for what I’m spending on my health a month. Most of the other jobs actually sound more stressful than what I’m currently at.

        1. Cruciatus*

          Then going back to my first question which wasn’t the question you were asking about but–why stay in that line of jobs? Could you get something even better then all of those jobs? Like I said–office support, administration, library jobs or so many other things. That’s basically my history right there! I didn’t love all of them and am still not paid a ton at a library (but paid pretty well and better than all the other jobs!), but I usually get pretty decent benefits (not amazing, but not as expensive as you’re talking now) and the jobs had stress but, again, not at the level you seem to be talking about (at least at those potential newer jobs). Maybe it’s time to expand your job horizons? I understand it may not be that simple but you’re in the right place if you need advice to do so!

          1. Jessen*

            I mean, I’d like to eventually, but I’m in a place where I feel like I pretty much have to get something ASAP and I don’t have time to worry about expanding my horizons because it’s something that could likely significantly increase the amount of time it takes to get a job. Given that I’m in the state of “what I make now is literally not enough to pay all my expenses”, the priority is to get out first, and then work on getting settled better.

  197. KatieKate*

    Hope I’m not too late!

    I’ve been on vacation this week and just fell in LOVE with a touristy town we visited (Sedona). Since we left I have been trying to justify a way to pick up and move there, but from what I can tell there is no industry aside from hospitality and tourist. Flagstaff is an hour away, but the drive through the mountains is crazy. This is part rant and part question-has anyone made a move to a small town lik this? Is it sustainable? Can I move to my red rock paradise, or do I need to wait until I retire?

    1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Are you in an industry where remote jobs are possible? I’d look into positions where you could work from home. I very much would like to move to a more rural, lower cost of living place. As soon as I figure out exactly where, I plan to ask to become a remote employee. (It’s a bit easier as my company has many remote employees, and I already work from home 2-3 days a week).

      1. Daria Grace*

        Just make sure you check that you can get high quality reliable internet access and phone service which not all small towns have. I’d be wary of remote working somewhere that takes a crazy drive through the mountains if you’ve every going to need to go to in person meetings elsewhere. Don’t want the weather trapping you in when you have a super important meeting.

      2. KatieKate*

        No chance of that with my current industry. And honestly, that would not be a good fit for me. I like being on a team too much! I did used to love hospitality work, so I wonder if that transition is feasible…

    2. Book Lover*

      Sedona is really hot in the summer, you know that, right? It is gorgeous this time of year, but not so much in July. There really isn’t anything there except for tourism, and health care options aren’t great for retirees, either.

      1. KatieKate*

        Great to know about healthcare! And honestly, the heat doesn’t bother me. If it was hot and humid I couldn’t deal, but the dry heat rolls right off of me :)

    3. H.C.*

      Perhaps a compromise might be something in Phoenix or one of his suburbs, which gives you the opp to go to Sedona on weekends & holidays.

  198. NoodleMara*

    There’s been some changes to the sales support team in the past two weeks that people are cranky about. We’ve rearranged sales support so one sales support person covers specific salesmen instead of the pool method we were doing the year before.

    My goodness, you should hear the whining. No one knows what’s going on despite it being pretty clearly explained. None of the salesmen know who to call. Why can’t they all just call sales support lead??? Despite the fact that he’s no longer the lead.

    What’s more hilarious to me, is that we did do this already and it is a success. I moved from the pool to cover one specific location’s salesmen. I fucking love it. I’m in charge of my own hours and schedule and no one cares as long as the work gets done. Like. I don’t know. I just find it ridiculous how much whining there is considering it already works and everyone else knows it works.

    Just a comment, no advice needed. I know what I’m doing.

  199. No name for this one*

    Has anyone ever had a job or working in a field where they loved the work but didn’t necessarily like the industry norms and policies?

    I work in the industry I have always wanted to work in. It is all I have ever wanted to do and I can’t imagine doing anything else. But I am on 3rd job in the industry and the norms and policies have been the same at every company I have worked at are driving me mad and I don’t know if I can take it much longer.

    Some examples:
    no flexible time or coming in late/going home early for any reason
    we start at the same time every day and go home at the same time every day
    getting spoken too for being even a few minutes late unless someone does it so rarely and because of something like an accident causing traffic (and no we aren’t an environment where clients or anyone is waiting and we need to start right on time)
    not being allowed to work from home or access things like email or our voicemail outside of work
    expected to be at our desk working unless we are on out lunch break or using the restroom
    no access to internet (intranet only) on work computers
    not being allowed to use the phone or emails for anything personal unless it is quick and relates to an extreme and rare emergency
    cell phones must be off and put away and not seen unless it is the lunch break
    a formal type dress code
    open office or cube farm with low and non-existent walls
    no headphones or music
    desktop computers only instead of tablets or laptops

    I admit that I didn’t think about stuff like this when I was going to school. All I thought about was the work and how it was what I have wanted to do my whole life. After I left my first post university job I thought it was a on off but I am at my third company and job now and it is the same and I have realized from talking to others in the industry that is the same all over. The only job I have ever had outside of the industry was at a fast food place part-time while I was in high school and university. I can’t imagine doing anything else and when I have looked at jobs in other industries I have not seen anything close that holds my interest and looks appealing. I know I can’t push back against an entire industry where everything is the same all over the country. But I hate some of those norms I listed.

    Does anyone have any advice or commiseration? Thanks all, I just needed to vent.

    1. Daria Grace*

      It’s a difficult one because the right combination of interesting work and good workplace norms is rare. Here’s a few things I suggest considering:
      – Are these things which you would likely still encounter if you changed careers? Open offices are VERY common, as are restrictions on headphones and internet use.
      – How much do these things actually matter? No personal internet use is kinda annoying but realistically the vast majority of things you’d want it for can wait to check on your phone during your break.
      – Are there possibly benefits you’re not seeing? If you can’t access email or files outside the office, it’s harder for them to dump late night “emergency” tasks on you.
      – Will your needs change? If you suspect likely changes to your future personal or family circumstances will make flex time or some other accommodation more important than they are now, that’s worth considering

    2. AnotherAlison*

      My work isn’t that restrictive (sounds like you are in something very regulated perhaps), but what I have found is that I don’t care about a lot of that type of stuff that I ranked highly when I started. I like flex time and jeans Friday, but I would rather have work I like, coworkers I like, and a chance for advancement. So, I don’t know, maybe you get used to working conditions over time. Like prisoners who can’t make it on the outside, ha.

  200. WillowSunstar*

    Update: Found out the one manager, who wasn’t even my manager, who had been mean to me at my previous job (and it happened more than once) has apparently been let go. Found out from her assistant, Sansa, who had been there this Monday. She told me an HR person was there and Cersei was cleaning out her desk. This was on really short notice, too, as everything was apparently fine on Friday.

    Sansa is still there, as is Monday, the co-worker who drove me up the wall. The good news is that Monday has apparently been too swamped to annoy me lately.

  201. dawbs*

    I’m a somewhat new (6 months or so) manager at a small nonprofit.
    We’ve had a few staff challenges (these particular employees tend to skew slightly young –which isn’t bad, but it does mean we have some ‘introduction to professional workplace norms’ come up. We also have expected turnover as young people move because of finishing degrees, internships ending, spouse’s jobs, etc) , but, all in all, we have a pretty good team.

    Today I went to grab some supplies from a cabinet and buried in a stack of paper, was one sheet that had been used–it was easy to overlook because of how it was written. on, and because i was essentially gray-on-gray.
    It had some doodles, a line or 2 of song lyrics, and then a short rant about feeling unappreciated at work and considering quitting.

    I have no idea who wrote it. Well, I have no way of KNOWING who wrote it, If I had my guesses, it’s either one current employee or one former employee–but they’re just guesses.

    I am 100% sure my manager will want to see it. I am not 100% sure it’s a good idea to pass it off to my manager. It looks like something 2 employees might have been passing back and forth while having a conversation they didn’t want overheard…and then they just missed tossing it. Might not be about this job even. But I wish I had never found it. Right now it’s in the folder on my desk (i didn’t find it until manager was out for the day, so I’ve got a reprieve until next week) and I’m just going to mentally glare at it until I figure out what to do with it, which will probably be give it to my manager. Ugh.

      1. dawbs*

        Because if my manager knew I pitched it w/o telling him, he’d be pissed as hell.

        And because everyone knows I was getting out all of the gray paper out of the cabinet today and using it for projects, I’m kinda assuming there are odds (not great odds, but odds) that someone might go “oh crap, dawbs is going to find that. We should head it off”–(which, truth be told, might not be a bad idea for them, knowing manager the little I do thus far) . Which then leads to manager asking me (because he will), and me being unable to white lie to save my life (which he already knows).

        Or maybe I can shove it all back in the gray paper box and let it be someone else’s problem if they find it.
        (But these are also people *I* am learning to manage, so figuring out if people are feeling underappreciated and looking to quit is kinda important to me too)

        1. NeverNicky*

          Whst would be achieved by showing your manager? You’ve said yourself it might not be about this job or have been written by a former employee.
          Why would your manager know if you throw it out?
          Does he go through your bins?
          Does he read every personal notebook your team keeps?
          If he is such a micro-manager no wonder the grey on grey writer was unhappy…
          It seems to be causing you some anxiety. Why is this? I would have screwed it up and thrown it away without a second thought.

          1. Cruciatus*

            All the questions I had too, NeverNicky. How would your boss know anything at all and why are you so worried he will find out? Toss/shred the paper and don’t think of it another second. Your boss sounds pretty awful to have you feeling this anxious over a piece of paper.

        2. Overeducated*

          I suspect whoever wrote it will not try to “head it off” just in case you didn’t find it! Why manufacture trouble, if they even remember putting it there? Shred it and maintain the polite fiction it never existed, I’m sure the boss won’t find out. The excuse you probably won’t need is “it seemed to be about a personal matter, I don’t have details.”

    3. Database Geek*

      I don’t understand why your manager would even care about seeing it or be mad at you for throwing it out. It’s basically just a paper with notes on it and one rant about the job. Not worth doing anything about anyway except throwing it out.

    4. dawbs*

      Y’all are making me think that I”m carrying some issues from some of the bad parts (there were some) of my last job.
      So maybe I can just toss it and make it easy.
      THanks :)

  202. many bells down*

    I posted a couple weeks ago that I met the new Education Director at the museum I volunteer at and today … I discover he’s hiring for a position in the Ed Dept that I am just baaaarely maybe qualified for. I don’t have the degree, but I have the experience. So I’ll be composing a nice cover letter this weekend!

    2. Lenora Jane*

      Good luck! I did the “excitable volunteer to ~museum professional~” transition over the past year or so and haven’t regretted it for a second (and found that my volunteer experience has been a really great asset, honestly), so I’ll send my happy-museum-work vibes your way!

  203. Just Tea For Me, Thanks*

    I got a job offer!!! I’m so excited! I will have a meeting discussing the final details and then hopefully will be able to leave my current awful job! I’m so releaved! And it was completely unexpected, I got the idea they weren’t that impressed with me during the interview, but lo and behold I got an offer! Can’t wait to send the email to my colleagues that I’ll be leaving for a new job! Enjoy your weekend everyone!

  204. Free Range Creative*

    Rough day yesterday. The property manager for the house I rent is getting increasingly nasty to me. I haven’t done anything to provoke it. He seems to have an issue with me being an artist, looking young, and having some disabilities. I’m scared of him. I need to find a new place to live or complain to the landlord, but it’s the worst possible time for that.

    In a pinch money-wise, I took a gig that I usually wouldn’t have. The client devalued my work, acted like he was doing me a huge favor just by working with me, and monologued at me for four hours. Ironically, a lot of my work is about this exact sort of thing – being treated as inferior because of the way you look.

    But I made the amount of money I needed to continue working the side job that allows me to do all of this.

    Life is rough, but I’m still surviving it.

    1. nep*

      Sorry things so rough. Glad you’re surviving. Way to persevere.
      You’re scared of the property manager? Is there a threat of harm?

      1. Free Range Creative*

        I can’t say. He just insults me and insults my intelligence constantly.

        When the roof was leaking, causing damage to the house and my belongings, he wasn’t concerned. Finally, I convinced the landlord to fix it. She had him find a contractor and arrange for the work to be done. I was given a general, “Probably this week or next,” time frame. Then one night, I got a text message saying the roof would be replaced starting early the next morning. I pushed back and asked for 24 hours notice. He got aggressive by text message. “That is not your house. It belongs to the landlord. You are renting it.”

        The other day, I got locked out. He texted, “How could you be locked out? You need your keys to lock the door.” (The locks are actually the kind with the swivel on the doorknob so you don’t need a key to lock them before leaving.)

        He’s a big guy. I’m small and I have joint problems. He’s bad with boundaries. He’ll come over for one reason and then insist on seeing another part of the house (like the bathroom, where my underwear was hanging up to dry). So he’s invasive yet unconcerned for my basic well being. He looks like he’s high on drugs half the time. And there’s just something weird about him. So, no, no tangible threat. I’m just creeped out.

        I get a lot of this kind of thing because of the way I look. I’m older, but I look young, and because of my joint problems, I’m kind of odd looking. I come across as awkward and lazy when in fact it’s a physical issue. Dealing with that all the time is exhausting.

            1. Free Range Creative*

              Thank you! I’ll post an update soon. I’m trying to find a good job so that I can buy a house. Fingers crossed. I don’t have any leads, but maybe something will come up.

              1. ..Kat..*

                Many rental contracts specify how much notice you must be given before contractors invade your home.

                Can you have a key on a lanyard hanging next to the door? And make it a habit to always slip it over your head whenever you go out?

  205. Wrench Turner*

    I was involuntarily transferred to a new territory and red flags are all over the place. “Closer to home and temporary” is the official reason, but it’s clear I was permanently poached to help un-fork the place. Turnover is about 75%, tickets are wrong, money wasted, etc. Since I got there 3 months ago the shop went from losing to making money.

    The boss goes on vacation and his bosses (remotely) manage us, giving me nothing but praise for how I work. Boss gets back, 1 on 1 heaps tons of praise on me and says he wants the rest of the techs to work the way I do. He then fires 2 (of 7), calls a meeting to chew us all out. “I’m watching your GPS, don’t slack, etc.” Recently he gets in to a shouting match with the Senior tech and sends him home -both handled a really basic thing very poorly.

    Meanwhile 1 on 1 the Senior tech is badmouthing the boss, the other techs are badmouthing him with “watch your tools” and saying he and the boss are unprofessionally buddy-buddy with work arrangements. Morale is low, gossip is rampant, and this can be a very difficult if not dangerous place to work if you don’t have a team. Yikes.

    Because of how I was hired/trained, I am still in touch with corporate HQ. When they ask, and they will, How’s it going? should I lay all what I know at their feet? Point out only the obvious ‘on paper’ stuff and leave out the toxic culture? I just want to turn wrenches, make money and go home. I’m also quietly looking for work elsewhere.

    1. fposte*

      If you had a specific and preferably actionable statement on the culture, what would it be? Could you make it without repercussions? Do you think any action would be taken? The closer it is to on-paper stuff the less risk for you, obviously, but it’s possible you could give it a little more depth; high turnover, low morale, unpredictable management would seem a pretty clear cocktail to me in addition to the stuff you mention in your first paragraph; that doesn’t outright say “Boss is a nightmare who will drive this territory into the ground” but makes the point. But if it’s going to hurt you or be ignored, not much point in your sticking your neck out.

      It also sounds like you’re pretty valuable to the company; if they knew you were going to go elsewhere rather than put up with this, would they find a way to keep you that would make you happy?

  206. NewOne*

    I’m about to change my job, I’m starting very soon.

    The new position sounds interesting, otherwise I wouldn’t have accepted it.

    However, I’m sure that after starting I would like to develop and take on new responsibilities as soon as possible. For example, I won’t be supervising anybody yet, but I would like to start doing so soon.

    It won’t be my first job and I know that I get underwhelmed easily and that in my case the more responsibility I have the more my bosses are happy with me. I’m ambitious and I have received excellent reviews throughout my professional career so far.

    This may sound preposterous, but I have now spent 2 years in a position I was super bored at from the beginning. I hated the job. And every time I needed to take over my boss’s or my boss’s boss’s responsibilities I got praised to the stars how well I did. Still I didn’t get a pay raise or got promoted during my stay with the company. Basically, I’m considering how to make people at my next job see me as a person to develop and promote as soon as possible.

    1. Ramona Flowers*

      By initially just doing what you are asked to do. Stay in your lane for a bit and prove yourself. You don’t want to seem bored at the start, you know?

      1. NewOne*

        Yeah, but how long “a bit” is? I currently work on projects and normally get excellent reviews after 3-4 months on a project, proving that I managed to “show them what I’m worth” in 3-4 months and sometimes much faster than that.

        My next role is more senior but also on projects. I would like to get promoted not later that a year after joining the company.

        1. Windy Weather*

          A year is really short in my opinion. When I hire for roles above entry level, I’m expecting 2-3 years from the hire. If someone is hoping to get promoted within their first year, I’d consider them to be really unrealistic and out of touch. And I’d worry about their judgement and their commitment.

          If you are finding you get bored and hate your job so quickly, maybe you need to look at the jobs you are applying for more carefully, explore the company culture and approach to these things carefully in the interview process, and find a job you’d be willing to commit to for a few years to begin with.

  207. nep*

    I reckon this might have been covered in past threads — Anyone here use FlexJobs? I’d be interested in hearing of people’s experience with that.

    1. nep*

      (Just now saw that there’s a fee. Believe it or not I’m at the point I can’t even afford that.)

      1. AudreyParker*

        I’ve subscribed to it for awhile now, not applied for anything I’ve seen, though. You can browse the jobs without paying, so you have an idea of what they’re listing, just not the companies or links to apply. I have found that a lot of the positions have caveats – i.e. copy editor, but with a PhD in Biology; you can telecommute but must live within 50mi of x city; project manager, with 10 years experience in clinical trials. I’m not saying it isn’t potentially useful, but don’t think you’re missing out on the motherlode by not subscribing (unless you do have some niche experience.) They’re also an aggregator, essentially, so I don’t think there’s anything there you wouldn’t find on the companies’ own sites or possibly elsewhere. I just really really want something flexible! (Although getting to the point where I really really want something that involves a paycheck…)

  208. Being Anonymous at Work*

    I wanted to know what is the best way to be anonymous at work when I need to ask something that I don’t want my other colleagues to know about?

    I worked in a face-pace environment where I have to approved fund disbursements in the software system really quickly in order to meet deadlines. I was told by my department head that all I have to do is make sure the expense is related to our organization. I am the newest employee in my department and I was assigned to approve these disbursements even though I don’t have much experience with how disbursements usually work.

    From time to time, I received disbursement requests that are for our organization–but there are coding in the software fields that seems a bit inconsistent with the documents for the disbursement. I have already approved those disbursements because everyone needed them to be approved by deadline.

    But if they come up again, I am not sure how I should bring up the inconsistent coding anonymously in my workplace.

    I know a senior manager who overseas these particular disbursement requests and he may have an explanation to the odd coding. Should I ask him about this before going to my manager? And anonymously tell my manager in case I have a problem with the senior manager’s explanation?

    I also have a not-so-friendly relationship with the clerks who help the senior managers send the disbursement requests to me, so I wanted to remain anonymous to avoid having to argue with them.

    I also feel worried that I will be seen as aloof for having approved disbursement with the odd coding that I don’t understand. And it might be hard to remain anonymous if the clerks find out I am suddenly taking a longer time approving something.

    1. Being Anonymous at Work*

      I also wanted to know if there is a way to be anonymous without using the work hotline. I am not sure if this situation warrants a hotline.

  209. Lola*

    HELP! I am looking for advice – not judgement or unkindness.

    Here are the facts:
    I have $100k+ in student loan debt for 3 degrees. a Bachelors & 2 masters.
    I just recently moved here and took the first offer I got because I needed a job.
    I have been interviewing and I am on track to make at least $85-$100k in the next job which will reflect my experience and education till now.
    I moved here from a LCOL and recently completed the second masters.
    I work in tech.
    Currently, I make $65k in San Francisco. After tax it is more like $3k a month.
    I am not in a position where I need to pay rent – (partners income)
    I do not have kids.
    My car is paid off (and very old but runs fine).
    I do not copiously shop and cook all my meals.

    I want to get rid of the loans as soon as possible. Especially since I do not have kids/mortgage/car note etc right now.
    What is the best strategy?
    Should I just throw my whole paycheck at it starting with the smallest loan?
    The loans are private loans which are broken into 3: about $70k, $16k & $7k.
    They are not from sallie mae – so I do not qualify for any sort of cancellation of the loans nor forgiveness.

    I do not regret the loans. I finally got to a place where I do not feel shame and disgusted at myself for it.I went into college at 16 yrs old and was not informed when I started out at the private university about the true cost or implications. Single parent was not and is not financially literate to this day. Please do not disparge me and make me feel stupid about all this. I did the best I could with what I knew and through the rough life that I had.

    Any advice would be so appreciate and thankful. You are all so so smart, I would love to hear from you.

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Either the smallest loan or highest interest loan first. I’d also keep an eye out for other ways to consolidate or transfer to lower interest loans or cards, etc. You want to knock principal down as fast as you can, so if you can make extra payments to that, do it.

      Just don’t forget to budget for yourself, like food, healthcare and a little fun money so you don’t go insane from just working all the time.

    2. ladydoc*

      Lola, there’s nothing in what you wrote to judge or be unkind about! You have 3 degrees, a job, and sound frugal. I wonder if maybe you are very hard on yourself?

      In terms of your question, the first thing I would recommend is building a 6 month emergency fund (at least six months of expenses). It’s great to want to pay off your loans as fast as possible, but don’t put yourself in a situation where you sacrifice stability to do it–in other words, if you got laid off tomorrow, make sure you can take care of yourself for a few months without a crisis before putting extra money into your loans.

      Once that is done, start putting extra money into your loans in order of interest rate. Pay your highest interest rate student loans off first, then the rest. Congratulations on having good money sense!

      1. Lola*

        Thank you so much for your advice, those are very good ideas! I have to agree that I am very hard on myself, and it is something I am in counseling for. I can’t stop beating myself up no matter how much success or happiness I get. I guess I feel irresponsible for taking out private loans, I feel that I should’ve have known better. I know this low self esteem has to do with my upbringing. So, I appreciate your encouragement so much. Even though we are talking online that brought a tear to my eye because it isnt something I have heard in a long long time. Thank you again.

        1. Wrench Turner*

          We’re told all our young lives that we MUST go to college if we want any chance of “success” (whatever that actually means, anyway), so no matter what, go! Borrow whatever you have to because you’ll get a good job right after, right?

          Mainline academia isn’t for everyone; I should NOT have gone, instead just gone to trade school or started working. The crushing debt kept me unstable in poverty and even homeless for a bit. It took about 20 years to come around, and it was only the death of a family member that actually paid the loans off. Why on this green earth are we letting people who aren’t old enough to legally buy booze make major financial decisions that will haunt them for the rest of their lives with zero guarantee they’ll be able to land a job to pay it back? We were misinformed at best, lied to at worst. All of us. It’s not you.

          You should be hugged a thousand times whenever you feel down about where you are and how you got here. College at 16? Holy chrome that’s amazing, really. At 16 I was too busy studying witchcraft and trying to get laid to even think seriously about future college things. I took some AP classes to get ahead on college credit but found out the tests weren’t free and couldn’t afford them at the end of the semester.

    3. ..Kat..*

      Pay the highest interest loans off first. You will save money in interest that way.

      I recommend that you don’t focus entirely on paying off the loans. Please make sure you are also putting money away for retirement. The money you save at a young age will grow the most by the time you retire. Think compound interest for example.

  211. This Daydreamer*

    I know that Alison has mentioned a job board just for nonprofits. I also know that I am way late for this week, but does anyone know the name of that job board? I’m committed to nonprofit work but I could use a few more hours a week to live on.

  212. Fiona*

    I found out through someone that my boss is talking about me to a coworker. My boss and the coworker have always got along and ‘cover’ for one another and are as thick as thieves.

    I’m livid because I’m doing jobs that I’m told to do and then she’s badmouthing me about them. I was very hurt when I found out but I should have expected this – the person doing the job before me ended up leaving because she felt bullied.

    We recently got a new Senior Manager who is above my boss who is very pleased with the work I produce so I do feel that I’ve got a bit of back up there. My boss and coworker don’t like the Senior Manager because they are making them do some work for a change.

    I want to speak to my boss about this because I think it’s totally unprofessional and is making me uncomfortable. Problem is -how do I bring it up – my friend who told me has said that if I do they will deny telling me – so I don’t even know how to broach the subject.

    It feels like high school. Do you think it’s best to leave this well alone or bring it up?

  213. IrishEm*

    Lads, I am in a quandary. I have an interview tomorrow with a direct sales company that I applied to quite randomly. So far so good. The quandary is that in my research I have found that wages are purely commission based. I need a guaranteed minimum income, lads, I just do, I need stability after 3 years out of work. I am going to have to raise the issue at the interview so I don’t waste anyone’s time, but I honestly want to get full time hours so much that I am tempted to accept if they give me an offer. I don’t know if I should just go for interview experience and plan not to accept, if I should try to negotiate a base wage and waive some commission, or what I ought to do. I want full time work, but I also need a steady income so I can pay bills and save. Anyone have any advice? I figure the work will be soul-destroying, but good enough wages will offset that aspect for me.

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