open thread – November 9-10, 2018

by Alison Green on November 9, 2018

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Ask a Manager* Post author

    Hi! I’m putting together a holiday-themed episode of my podcast, and I’m looking for weird/funny office holiday stories — holiday party disasters, gift exchanges gone terribly wrong, decorating debacles … any weird or funny stories about the holidays at work. If you have a story that you’re willing to share on the show, here’s how to get it to me:

    1. Call the show voicemail at 855-426-9675 and record it on the voicemail there.

    2. Or even better (in terms of sound quality), you can record it on your phone and email me the sound file at podcast@askamanager.org.

    Also! If you have holiday-related questions that you want to hear answered on the show, send those in too! (Same instructions as above.)

    Because I’m recording soon, ideally send them in this weekend if you can.

    Thank you, thank you!

  2. Moths*

    TL;DR – Do I bring up issues with another employee now that they’re already on the ropes?
    Full Version – We have a Problem Employee (Regina George), who has been impossible to work with since she started two years ago. Other employees have repeatedly gone to the department head with concerns that Regina is difficult to work with, disparaging of others, confrontational, etc. But the department head liked that Regina would come and gossip with complaints about others, so would always ignore the complaints and even ended up promoting Regina (a real morale killer for everyone who had been personally victimized by Regina George). When the department head hired a friend recently, it was no longer possible to ignore the issues when they started bringing them forward too. Now the department head came to me the other day and asked if I was also having any issues with Regina, since they’ve decided to start doing some coaching with her and may have to make some decisions soon (which came off as decisions about Regina’s continued employment). I stalled and said that I would think about it and get back to them. While it’s great that Regina is finally being dealt with, I feel like the department head enabled and encouraged the bad behavior for so long that they essentially let her walk into traffic and is now looking for people to help push her in front of a bus. But I would also like to see Regina held accountable for her bad behavior and I feel like this is the first time the department head will actually listen. Should I pretend I have nothing to say or do I come forward with more issues, knowing that it may lead to Regina’s firing?

    1. carrie heffernan*

      my opinion is that you should definitely come forward – otherwise the problems will continue.

    2. Beehoppy*

      1000% come forward! Regina is responsible for her own poor behavior and must face the consequences even if they are belated.

    3. Shark Whisperer*

      If I were in your position, I would come forward with more issues. I agree that it sucks that the department head enabled this behavior for so long and now it might come as a complete surprise to Regina, but Regina also sucks and should be fired. Whether or not the department head coaches her and gives her a chance to change or just fires her really has nothing to do with you. If you give more info and the department head fires her right away, that was the department head’s decision, not yours, and it’s not really your place to try and exert control over that decision. Just be honest.

    4. Psyche*

      Bring up the issues. You don’t need to pile on, so if a specific issue is already being addressed then you don’t need to bring it forward, but they do need the full picture. However, I would agree that the department head is the real problem here. It should not take hiring a friend to believe what your employees are telling you.

    5. Lynne879*

      Regina is a poor employee, so she should be fired! Come forward otherwise the problems will get worse than they already are.

      1. Waiting At The DMV*

        Come forward but be careful – be matter of fact and focus on ways end work product has been negatively affected. Sounds like this boss is pretty bad and could just as easily keep RG, or even if RG is let go you don’t want anything to recoil negatively toward you.

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          Not only the work product, but the work flow ITSELF, which could include how your team’s professional relationships with other units inside and outside the business are being affected by her behaviors, work practices, and speech. A company’s workflow often depends on everyone, inside and outside of a team, cooperating, so if she has been as argumentative with outside unit counterparts as she is within the team, or she has made disparaging comments–verbally or in emails–about the performance level of other outside-the-team workers, explain how this behavior has affected her targets’ cooperation with you and with others on your team with respect to the workflow AND end product. (E.g., did the after-effects of her sounding off result in slower response times from other units? in “lost” requests that had to be re-sent? etc.) Coming to that meeting with specific examples of how her inappropriate behaviors and comments enabled bad outcomes (bonus points for you if her behavior cost the company extra money, so mention that if it’s true) will make you a more credible witness to the people you are speaking to.

    6. ThankYouRoman*

      Hired a friend, eh…and now Regina is being held accountable. This reeks of Friend butting heads with Regina, so now of course she’s gotta go. Despite all the nasty crud before. Ick ick ick what a bad place.

      She’s bad and seemingly hasn’t changed, so I would say don’t protect her. It’s unfair how long it’s taken but don’t cut off your nose to spite your face!

    7. neverjaunty*

      Don’t protect Regina, but do start planning your exit. Your job is not safe with this trash fire of a department head. What if Friend takes a dislike to you?

      1. Zombeyonce*

        I agree with this so much! Definitely don’t hesitate to be honest about Regina’s issues, but the department head is obviously terrible at prioritizing morale over gossip, and the whole team over their interests in a single relationship with a friend.

        They’ll continue to be a bad person to work for long after Regina’s gone and this won’t be the end of problems stemming from their lack of good managing. Start looking for another job now if you can!

      2. Matilda Jefferies*

        This. I don’t see any need to protect Regina at this point, but I also don’t trust the boss. I would give one or two data points about Regina, and immediately start getting your resume together as well. I’m sorry – it’s a crappy situation for you, either way.

      3. Moths*

        I can’t argue this point. There really are so many issues here and sometimes I lose perspective on that. See below for an update on the meeting I had with the department head, but during it they noted that they had started avoiding interactions with Regina (??? you’re her manager!!!) and that they didn’t do anything until people they “respected” started coming forward (basically, if you’re a golden child you get whatever you want and if you’re not, your opinions don’t even matter). I have considered looking for an exit at some point, but my goal is to stick it out for another three years or so, unless things get unbearable. Probably not a bad idea to have a resume ready at any time though, just to be safe!

        1. RUKiddingMe*

          “…they didn’t do anything until people they “respected” started coming forward…”

          No, not at all insulting to everyone else or anything. What a tool your boss is!

        2. tangerineRose*

          “basically, if you’re a golden child you get whatever you want and if you’re not, your opinions don’t even matter” This is really bad. You may want to look for something earlier than 3 years, maybe much earlier.

    8. LGC*

      She got herself fired, Gretchen.

      I normally HATE that framing, but it sounds like they want confirmation of her well known bad behavior. You can either lie and protect someone who’s well known to be toxic, or you can tell the truth and they can do what they should have done a while ago. It sounds like she’s on her way out anyway.

    9. designbot*

      Ideally if you have any documentation of issues being brought forward previously, I’d remind her about those. Forwarding an old email with a note like, “resending in light of our recent conversation,” or if you don’t have documentation I’d be like well, there have been the X and Y issues that we brought up a while ago… those haven’t gone away but I’d gotten the impression they weren’t of concern to you the last time we spoke about them.
      So, I’d not only bring up the Regina issues, I’d try to be really clear that they’d been previously been brought up and play a little bit dumb about why they’re a problem to the boss now when they weren’t before.

    10. Peachkins*

      Totally agree with everyone else- say something! I would just make sure you stick with the facts. I know it stinks that your boss waited this long to do something, but don’t back down now that they finally are if Regina truly deserves it.

    11. Anonymeece*

      Come forward. It sounds like you’re concerned you’d be “responsible” for Regina’s firing – but you’re not. She is.

    12. LKW*

      Bring up the issues but only in a very constructive way highlighting the impact to the organization. Loss of talent, loss of clients, slower productivity, rework. No gossip, facts only.
      Regina ignored instructions resulting in roughly three weeks of rework for 8 people and in order to make up for lost time, the next team had to work nights and weekends resulting in really bad morale.

    13. EddieSherbert*

      You should definitely be honest. And if it comes to it, remember than you’re not leading to her being fired, HER ACTIONS are.

    14. OhGee*

      Yes. In my experience, it can take a long time and many complaints before a toxic coworker is fired. If you speak up, it could be the final straw — if you don’t, they may hang on there a lot longer. It’s too bad management didn’t step in sooner (or set a good example in the first place!) but it doesn’t change the fact that this person needs to go.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        This. They are asking you, now is not the time to hold back. I would pick the three top concerning things you saw and be sure to mention those things. You can say, “There are other things but these three concerned me the most.”

        It’s nice of you to be concerned about driving the bus over her, but she walked out into traffic on her own. Think of it this way, if she had come to you one day and said, “Boy I have been such a jackass. I want to clean up my act. Will you help me by giving me advice as I go?” You probably would have agreed to this. But she never asked and she had all that time to ask.

        Don’t protect people from themselves and don’t cover for people. Helping others never involves stopping the natural consequences nor does it involve covering up.

    15. froodle*

      If Regina George is still actively being terrible, 100% it’s relevant and timely and it’s appropriate to bring it up – though I can understand not wanting to get involved based on how useless the boss has previously been

      If she’s not terrible any more and hasn’t been for an extended period,I would think about it

    16. Marthooh*

      Definitely tattle. You can’t keep Department Head from playing favorites, but you can help get rid of one toxic coworker — and Regina George may even learn a lesson from this.

      (Yeah, don’t hold your breath.)

    17. Not So Super-visor*

      Spill the beans! As someone with a large department, I often have to filter complaints from employees about their coworkers. Example: Janis has a terrible attitude about everything and thinks that no one knows as much as her, so all of her complaints have to be taken with a grain of salt. Glen and Gretchen can’t stand each other, so I have to dig into every complaint that they make about each other. I sometimes have to verify complaints or ask for details from other employees in order to get an objective picture.
      Yes, it sucks that your manager let it go on for so long and perpetuated it, but she can’t make things better if she doesn’t know the real deal.

    18. Moths*

      OP here. I was definitely surprised to see these responses; I’d been falling down on the side of just staying out of it and letting her past bad behavior slide. While I didn’t get a chance to respond earlier, I read many of these and then decided to go ahead and talk to the department head. I narrowed down two specific points that I wanted to discuss and talked about how those two (major) behaviors had impacted the ability of the department to function as a team and had specifically affected my team’s ability to do their jobs effectively. It seemed to go pretty well and afterwards I didn’t feel like I had piled on Regina, but just made the department head aware of some of her behaviors that may not have been noticed before. Thanks to everyone on here for the motivation to speak up, knowing that she did these actions and is allowed to be held accountable for them!

  3. Sunflower*

    Can anyone recommend some quality professional development conferences/courses- bonus if they are geared towards women? I’m mostly looking for ones focused towards growing leadership skills and confidence in business. I live in NYC but my company will also pay for travel elsewhere. I’m also looking at joining the Ellevate network if anyone has experience with that.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      NY Women in Communications and The Association for Women in Communications
      has some. Media Bistro also has some classes around this topic. I also suggest looking at your alumni organization. My graduate university has a whole dedicated woman’s studies program that puts on events. Maybe check local universities, such as Cornell, NYU, etc.

      Institute for Women’s Leadership
      Women’s Leadership Institute

    4. Bubble Witch*

      I used to be an Ellevate member in a midwestern city. I thought it was a waste of time/money–the leadership in my chapter only ever organized happy hours and at least 1 out of every 4 women was there to hawk their multi-level marketing nonsense. But each chapter is locally managed, so I am sure every chapter is vastly different.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      I did a great year-long program through Women Unlimited in New York, but I think they mostly work with large companies that send a cohort of participants. (I was a nonprofit scholarship participant, so can’t speak to that side of thing.)

  4. Casper*

    How does quitting usually work? Does your health insurance stop on your last day or is there a grace period? What happens to your 401k? Does the new company’s HR like, send you a “here’s what to do” or are you on your own?

    Also, how do you tell people? Do you generally tell your colleagues or does your boss break the news (especially if you’re in an open cube and your boss has a door).

    Also if you’re really good friends with your boss…tips to not potentially cry when quitting if you’re the type to not be able to control it in tough situations?

    1. Audiophile*

      When I’ve quit in a past, my insurance has carried through for a few days to a week. But be prepared for it to end day of.

      1. Autumnheart*

        In the US, leaving a job qualifies as a “life event” and you should be able to sign up with an ACA plan without having to wait for the enrollment period.

    2. Trout 'Waver*

      Health insurance usually runs through the month, but double check your plan’s documentation. You can stay on the health insurance for a period of time through the COBRA program, but you have to pay the full cost to the company.

      Your 401(k) stays in place, but you may have to pay maintenance fees. You cannot contribute to it any more. It’s best to roll it over into your own IRA after you leave the company. It’s pretty straight forward and a company like Fidelity or Vanguard will have resources to help you make that move.

      As for telling people, talk to your manager and ask them what they’re prefer.

      1. Jerry Vandesic*

        If you have a short break between jobs, you can use a loophole in the COBRA law to keep yourself covered for up to 105 days without cost (assuming you don’t end up needing any covered medical care during those 105 days).

        The loophole works like this. You have up to 60 days to elect to be covered by COBRA. Wait until the last day. Then you have 45 days to make your first payment. If you don’t have any medical services that need insurance, you simply don’t pay. On the other hand, if you do need medical care, you can send in your payment and it will be retroactive to the day you left your job.

    3. Four lights*

      401k–This account will stay as is in your name. When you start your new job, if they have a 401k plan you can work with them to roll over the old plan to the new one.

      I’ve always told my colleagues, but that’s probably something you’ll work out with your boss. Regardless of who tells them, you’ll probably have conversations with them wishing each other well, talking about your next step, anyway.

      If you’re really good friends, maybe it’s ok to cry a little

      1. Admin of Sys*

        401k does not always hang around – make sure there’s not a minimum vested amount that you had to reach before you get to keep it. I had one that required me to either cash it out (horrid taxes / penalties before retirement age) or roll into a separate retirement account. Most are not like that and carry through, but it’s not 100%.

        1. Zap Rowsdower*

          It’s a mixed bag, depending on how the plan is set up and the contract the employer has with the firm maintaining the fund. When I was laid off, I started getting nastygrams from the brokerage company before 30 days, saying I need to either move it or roll it over (if they were intending to get me to roll my account over to them, it failed). My brother on the other hand resigned from a job 3+ years ago and still has the account in place.

          I would set up a IRA at the bank/firm of your choice and roll it over to them. Then you control it, not the former employer. Whatever firm sets up the IRA should take care of all the mechanics, it pretty much just needs your signature.

        2. DCGirl*

          Vesting would apply to the company’s contributions to the 401(k), not to the employee’s contributions.

          For the overall health of the plan, employers must have “force out” language to close out small accounts. I’ve seen ranges from $1,000 to $5,000. Some retirement plan providers will role it over to an IRA automatically, some will cut you a check pretty much on the day they receive notice you’ve terminated, some will send you a letter asking what you want to do. The best thing is to roll it over into another tax-deferred retirement vehicle, such as an IRA or another 401(k) plan. You don’t want to have to pay penalties or taxes.

          1. Actuarial Octagon*

            Yes. Retirement Plan consultant here. In The US the legal maximum they can force out is $5000. Under $1000 they can cut you a check instead of rolling it into an IRA. They do have to give you 30 days notice before either option. Some plans do the force outs immediately, some quarterly or once a year, some whenever someone in HR remembers.

          2. Clisby Williams*

            Second. It can make sense to roll it over to your new job’s 401k if that’s possible, but setting up your own IRA also is good. You don’t want to end up having to keep track of 5 or 6 separate 401k accounts over the course of your working life. If you just set up your own, you can roll over this one and any accounts from future jobs into the same IRA.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      How does quitting usually work? Does your health insurance stop on your last day or is there a grace period?

      Are you in the U.S.? If so, I’ve generally found health insurance to stop at the end of the month you quit with the option to COBRA-extend coverage. If you start the new job right away, you probably won’t have a gap in coverage, and your new company may even be able to back-cover you.

      What happens to your 401k?

      I think most retirement contributions stay in their own little silos, unless you make the effort to consolidate them, and there may or may not be tax penalties for doing so.

      Does the new company’s HR like, send you a “here’s what to do” or are you on your own?

      Depends on the company. Some are great at on-boarding. Others are terrible at it. And then there’s the whole gamut in between.

      Also, how do you tell people? Do you generally tell your colleagues or does your boss break the news (especially if you’re in an open cube and your boss has a door).

      I think that’s entirely up to you. Usually I have one or two trusted colleagues I’m close to who know before my boss does. You really shouldn’t tell your boss until you are ready to give your official notice. That said, even though the standard notice is two weeks, I’ve given notice as much as 9 months in advance sometimes (I work in schools, so it may be different from your typical workplace in that respect).

      Also if you’re really good friends with your boss…tips to not potentially cry when quitting if you’re the type to not be able to control it in tough situations?

      Just cry anyway?

      1. Natalie*

        There shouldn’t be any tax affect to consolidating retirement accounts as long as you do a direct rollover.

          1. Natalie*

            I suppose their would, although I’m not sure why anyone would do that? IRAs aren’t exactly difficult to open, and there’s nothing preventing anyone from having two.

            1. kg*

              Also any company that does retirement accounts (Fidelity/Vantage/whatever) will happily walk you through this, including receiving the check directly from the company’s 401k provider and depositing it for you. They are very very happy to do it for you and have you as a customer.

          2. fposte*

            That’s not a tax penalty, though; that’s just paying tax on the untaxed money.

            You’d get a tax *penalty* if you withdrew the money from the 401k directly to yourself and didn’t roll it into an IRA or another 401k. That’s the thing you really want to avoid. Trustee-to-trustee transfer (your new 401k/IRA custodian gets the money directly from the old one) is the easy way to avoid accidentally incurring that penalty.

      2. DCGirl*

        I think most retirement contributions stay in their own little silos, unless you make the effort to consolidate them, and there may or may not be tax penalties for doing so.

        To preserve the health of the plan, all 401(k) plans must have provisions for “force out” distributions of small balances, small being defined as $5,000 or less. Many will automatically role it into an IRA for the employee. If they don’t, the employee can set up his/her own IRA or roll the funds into another 401(k) or other approved vehicle. I disagree with the recommendations here to go directly to Vanguard or Fidelity. If this is a small account, the employee should be looking at the fees that may be charged. He/she might get a better deal on an IRA at a local credit union.

    5. AdAgencyChick*

      It varies. I’ve had jobs that stop your health coverage on your last day, and some that cover you until the end of the month in which you quit. 401(k) is still yours, although you’ll lose any company contributions that you weren’t there long enough to have vested (depends on your company’s vesting policy).

      I usually tell my coworkers, but not until my boss has given me permission to do so. Sometimes they don’t want you to tell right away because they want to have a solid transition plan in place before telling people. Once, though, I had a boss who wanted me to keep it quiet for so long that I didn’t feel right about it — that my colleagues just weren’t going to have enough time to pump me for information if I didn’t tell them sooner. (I served out the first half of my two-week notice and she still didn’t want me to say anything!) I ended up telling that boss (because she was awful and I had other managers from that company whom I’d far rather use as references) that I could not in good conscience keep things a secret any longer because my team was going to need to figure out how to cover my work, and that I planned to start telling people. She backed down (and to this day I have no idea why she was being so damn secretive).

      If you’re friends with your boss, go ahead and cry a little! I’ve done that only once (because only once have I been in a situation where I liked my boss that much and STILL wanted to leave — I was stolen away by an even better former boss), and it was totally fine. If your relationship with your boss is that good, it’s not going to be worse because you had a few tears over it.

    6. Detective Amy Santiago*

      In my experience, health care ends on the last day of the month when your employment ends. So, my last day at my previous job was May 2nd and my insurance through there ended on May 31st.

      How has it worked when other people have left? This varies depending on the company. If you’re not sure, ask your boss how they want to handle it.

      Take water in with you and sip it.

    7. Lily in NYC*

      In my company, most people try to leave early in the month if possible because their insurance will go through the entire month. You tell your boss first (in person if possible) and then tell your coworkers. You do not want your boss to find out from someone else, and people talk. For 401K, you should be able to get some guidance from your new place on how to roll over your account (it’s not difficult). And finally, if you are good friends with your boss, I don’t think it will be a big deal at all if you cry. It’s not the same as crying over a petty work problem. Good luck!

    8. Beehoppy*

      Health insurance varies by company/insurer. I know at my last job it went through the end of the month that I left.
      For my 401K I got a prorated matching contribution from my employer, but the money remains with them until you take action to move it. If you start a new job with their own plan, they should be able to help you roll it over, if not, you can talk to a financial advisor who can put it in an IRA for you. In general, it’s not ideal to leave your money with the former employer too long. I told my colleagues after I told my boss, but some Bosses will prefer to do it themselves to manage the message.

    9. The Rain In Spain*

      Your employee handbook should provide information re how long benefits will last after termination. At a previous employer, it ran through the end of the month (regardless of whether your last day was the 2nd or the 29th).

      You’ll should a letter re your 401k with your options (including rolling over to your new employer).

      How you tell people depends on culture. I waited for a week so we could figure out a transition plan, but when it was clear that my boss wasn’t going to make an announcement, I went ahead and told a few people close to me that I was leaving.

      Your last question is the hardest for me to answer- I felt SO stressed going to give my notice (I liked my boss but there was no room for growth) and then a little disappointed by the response (oh, okay. followed by grandboss asking me to extend my notice period the day before my last day). I would remind yourself of the reasons you’re leaving and thank your boss for the experience you’ve had. I find something as simple as digging my nails into my hand can help me avoid tearing up. I would make sure you’re prepared for the possibility of a retention offer and to know how you’d respond to it. If anything, you can be even better friends with your boss once you’re no longer reporting to her/him!

    10. LilySparrow*

      My health insurance ran through the end of the month, which gave me time to switch over to my husband’s (which was a better plan anyway).

      I got a packet of info from HR about my 401k holdings, how much I had vested of employer contributions (of course I kept 100% of my own contributions), etc. I liked my portfolio in that account, so I let it ride a few months until I decided where I wanted to open a new IRA. Then the rep from my investment company contacted the benefits person at the old job directly to handle the rollover.

    11. londonedit*

      I can’t comment on the benefits side of things because I’m not in the US, but in my experience your new company will send you some sort of timeline of when you can expect things to happen, along with any forms you’ll need to fill in before your start date (or they’ll let you know that when you arrive on your first day, you’ll meet with HR to fill in your new starter forms or whatever). If they haven’t given you this information, it’s perfectly OK for you to ask – ‘Is there any information I need to provide before my start date? Do you have an employee handbook I can read before I join?’ etc. That’s a completely normal request.

      In terms of who tells your colleagues, again, it’s fine to ask your boss about that when you give them the news. You can just ask whether they’d be happy for you to tell your colleagues that you’re leaving. Again, in my experience, people usually have ‘the meeting’ with the boss, and then come and tell their immediate colleagues in person. If you’re not comfortable doing that in an open-plan office, you could send an email or if it’s a small team maybe ask your boss if it’s OK to invite them into the meeting once you’ve finished the official discussion.

      And I think it’s perfectly OK to cry if you get on really well with your boss and you’re upset about not working with them anymore! Resigning from a job is a nerve-wracking thing and I don’t think anyone reasonable would think any less of you for being upset about it.

    12. Sleepytime Tea*

      I’m going to say “usually” a lot because every company can do weird things, but based on what I’ve seen over the years, these are the things that are pretty standard.

      Health insurance: Usually through the last day of the calendar month of your last day of work. That means if you quit on the 1st, you would still get insurance through the end of the month, just like if you quit on the 29th. Again, this is USUALLY and it’s because your employer is paying premiums on a monthly basis.

      401k: Contributions continue through your last paycheck, and usually any matching does as well. You will then need to make a decision on if you want to roll it over, move it, etc. etc. Your employer will notify the 401k company and they will send you documentation on what your options are, and you’ll see it all on their website.

      HR: Most of the time there is a “termination” checklist of “offboarding” list that they will go through with each employee who is leaving. Some companies are better than others at this. At my last job at a decent size company HR did nothing. I just handed my laptop and badge to my supervisor. At a previous job they had exit interviews, where they also gave you a full packet on the details and timeframes of what happened with your health insurance/COBRA options, 401k, etc. It will vary. No shame in reaching out to HR to ask for those details, they usually have it all written up already, even if they’re not great about handing it out.

      Telling people: My boss has always been the one to make the announcement, and that was usually just because it was easier and everyone gets the same message at the same time and all that jazz. At my last job due to some miscommunication he thought I wanted to announce it myself but I had told him that I would prefer he do it and then… whatever. I just started telling people and sent out an e-mail to the team. Typically though, your boss will make the announcement.

      Not crying: I had one time where I was in that spot. I loved my manager SO much and I knew it was going to be super rough on her for me leaving, both because we worked great together/liked each other on a personal level but because I was the glue keeping that department from falling apart. Honestly? I just let myself cry. I gave her my notice in a closed conference room so no one else saw me, and while crying at work is not something I generally want to do, really, in that situation with someone you have a close relationship with, I don’t think it’s a HUGE deal. You’re not crying about work. You’re crying because you’re sad. It’s fine.

    13. Natalie*

      One thing I haven’t seen mentioned regarding health insurance: even if your insurance lasts through the end of the month, the funds in your flexible spending account expire on your last day of employment. You will still have a few months to submit receipts, but the services have to have been provided on or before that expiration date. So if you have an FSA you want to spend down, plan ahead.

      In general, for federally regulated benefits like health insurance and retirement plants there are required plan documents that your company (or more likely a third party administrator) will send you in the mail. So make sure they have your address and that you check your mail.

      If you are moving on to another job, you probably won’t have much of a gap in coverage. I’d recommend holding onto your COBRA notice even if you’re pretty sure you won’t need the coverage. You have 60 days from the date of the notice to opt for coverage, which is retroactive to when your insurance ended, so if anything catastrophic happens during that short gap period you could jump back onto your own insurance then and be covered.

      1. Formerly Arlington*

        Really good point about the FSA. I frantically paid for my daughter’s braces in full on my last day of work when i realized that!

    14. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      My experience has been that you will get a letter with options for your 401k. Sometimes they have you roll it into a slightly different account. There shouldn’t be tax penalties as long as you don’t ask them to cut you a check (which is generally one of the options). If they make it easy to roll into your new company’s 401k (assuming you can contribute day 1) then that’s what I’d do. I just find it easier to keep up with if it’s all in the same place, but that’s a personal preference.

      For your new employer, you need to see when your benefits start there. If you have health insurance day one of new company, and you aren’t taking time off between the two, then you shouldn’t have to worry about cobra. Cobra lets you continue your current employer’s insurance but you’ll pay the full rate (your cost plus the cost that your company had been paying on your behalf) so it can be pretty pricey.

      I recently put in my notice and I went around and told my team in person after I told my boss. Then I emailed people that I worked with, but weren’t actually on my team. Other people just send an email. And I’ve seen the announcement come from managers too. There are a lot of ways to go about it and discussing it with your manager is probably your best bet.

      Cry if you need to. I’m assuming you mean watery eyes and not full on sobbing. It will be fine. It’s an emotional thing.

    15. Casper*

      Thank you everyone! I don’t have an offer yet but it’s possible (and regardless one day I will need this advice, I suppose). I realized a lot of my anxiety about leaving was of the unknowns about the transition.

      And apologies for being unclear – I wouldn’t tell anyone before boss! And yes, in the US.

    16. Hamburke*

      Insurance – They usually carry it forward to the end of the period but your company might have a different policy, especially if they are self-insured. If you pay a portion of your premiums, they’re unlikely to reimburse you for what you’ve already paid so they usually hold you over until you’ve exhausted what you’ve paid for or what they paid for you. But there’s also COBRA continuation coverage if you’re eligible.

      401K – any money that you contributed to the 401K is entirely yours. Company matching funds “vest” over time at a stated rate (sometimes partially vesting over a few years, sometimes all at once after an anniversary). My husband STILL has not moved the money from his very first 401K to anything but that account. It’s nearly 20 years since he left that job… You don’t need to do anything with it but you may accrue account management fees over time. I’ve moved all of mine to an IRA.

      New benefits – the new company usually has a new hire packet for you that includes a bunch of stuff including (US) I-9 (work eligibility forms – this is the “one ID from column A or one from column B and one from column C” form), W-4 (federal withholdings) and your state withholding form, company handbook and benefits selection as well as any other on-boarding/training materials they require – basically, your first day is boring. Depending on the employer policy, you may not be eligible for all or some of the company benefits immediately.

      Telling Colleagues – this is specific to your company culture and I’ve always talked about it with my bosses when I’ve resigned. At one place, I told everyone. At another place, it was announced at a department meeting.

      Good luck on not crying!

      1. blackcat*

        On COBRA, you can elect it retroactively.
        So say you quit on the 20th, intending to take a break. Insurance stops on the 1st. On the 2nd, you fall down the stairs and break your arm. On the 15th, you are feeling well enough to file for COBRA. You pay 1 month of COBRA, which is likely less $$$ than a broken arm.

    17. Artemesia*

      They are required to send you the paper work for COBRA when you leave and you can choose to continue your insurance (at horrific cost) with that until you have new insurance. One great wrinkle of COBRA is that you can have it essentially for two months without paying i.e. you sign up and you have two months to pay; if you get a new job or a new insurance policy and don’t need the COBRA then you just never pay. If you should develop some medical issue during that period, then you pay. Obviously with something this delicate and important double check current policy but this is how it worked when I retired and my husband was not eligible for medicare for a couple of months after my insurance stopped.

      Check with HR on insurance. Usually it goes to the end of the month you leave BUT make sure what the rules are where you are. And shop for your own insurance options before you resign. As noted above, COBRA is a bridge, but it would be good to know how you will go forward on that.

      1. Natalie*

        The COBRA float you’re describing works a little differently, which is important because you don’t want to elect for payments you don’t need. You have 60 days to *sign up* for COBRA (from the date of the COBRA notice, which is often a couple of weeks after you’ve quit).

        Once you sign up, you have 45 days to pay for your first premium, and theoretically if you realized at that point you didn’t need the insurance, you could just stop paying and you would be dropped. But it’s not as clear in practice that you would suffer no ill effects like bill collectors or similar.

    18. HR*

      Heath insurance is plan specific. We would have no way of knowing when your heath insurance will end. Typically most plans are set up so that health insurance ends on your last day of employment OR on the last day of the month. But you would have to contact your HR department for the answer.

      Again 401k is plan specific. Some companies leave the money in your account until your request otherwise. Other companies will automatically cash out your 401k if it is under X amount if you do not contact them by X date after leaving the company. Again you will need to contact your HR department. You should be able to roll your current 401k over to a new 401k at a new job or you can create an IRA with a financial institution of your choosing. Again this is plan specific. Some companies you go through the HR department some must be done online it just really depends how your employers set it up.

    19. Earthwalker*

      My health insurance ran to the end of the month that I left but YMMV. I called the firm that held my 401K and asked them how to roll it to an IRA. It was easy and tax free to roll to an IRA with the same firm and the investment options for IRA are much broader. My next company used the same firm – Fidelity – for 401K, so at the end of my time there, I rolled its 401K into the same IRA I had rolled my old 401K into. That keeps it all the investments in one place and easier to manage.

  5. AnitaJ*

    4 months pregnant, 2 months into a new job, and I cannot handle the level of disrespect from my boss. Finding it almost impossible to keep going when I feel demeaned and demoralized every single day. And yet…not a great time to be job hunting, huh?

    Any words of advice or encouragement? Has anyone else been in the same boat?

      1. Natalie*

        It certainly doesn’t hurt to look. Worst case scenario you don’t get a new job, which is the exact same outcome as not looking.

      2. Kathleen_A*

        My company hired someone who was more than 7 months along when she started here. So yes, it can be done.

      3. Formerly Arlington*

        One of my best hires ever was 6 months pregnant and took a 14 week leave. I’d look for sure! Good luck.

    2. LadyMountaineer*

      I know lots of women who have switched jobs while pregnant. The new admin at my work said in the interview “luckily pregnancy is like a rash–it goes away.” (This is a hospital, though, so YMMV with that joke. :))

    3. Psyche*

      Definitely check out the maternity leave policies where you are applying to avoid any suprises. Some places that have paid maternity leave do not offer paid maternity leave until you have been there one year.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      1. Job hunt anyway

      2. Have you/is it possible to discuss this with your boss? I’d frame it as checking in re how you’re doing in your role and if you’re meeting expectations. That’ll give you the chance to hear if there’s something you need to be doing differently and to bring up examples in a more objective way (eg- last week when I submitted my teapot painting report you seemed dissatisfied, is there something you’d like me to do differently?)

      3. Remind yourself it’s just a job. Care less. It’s difficult but it’s a mindset that can be SO freeing. It really helped me feel less disrespected/undervalued in a past position. Of course there were days it really got to me (in which case grabbing coffee with a close work friend helped me vent that steam!), but for the most part it helped me grin and bear it. I just focused on doing my job well and focusing on other positive things in my life (like your pregnancy! congrats!).

    6. Hellola*

      Definitely go ahead and look — I got OldJob (which I loooooooved) when I was 5 months pregnant, and they were great about it. I did not mention the pregnancy during the interview process, but did before I officially accepted the offer and they didn’t even bat an eye, just congratulated me and started telling me about their maternity leave policy.

    7. theletter*

      I know someone who was able to find a new job quickly while 5 months pregnant. It was a small step down but they promoted her back up when she returned from maternity leave

    8. mrs__peel*

      If you were counting on FMLA coverage, paid maternity leave benefits from your employer, and/or using accrued PTO or vacation time at your present job (etc.) to take maternity leave, I would tread very carefully and find out as much information as you can before you take another job. Different companies have different policies about (e.g.) how long you have to work there to be eligible for maternity leave (if they offer it at all), and FMLA doesn’t apply to some employers. I’d hate to switch jobs and then find out I wasn’t eligible for *any* leave (even unpaid).

      Also, if you currently have health insurance through your employer and are looking to get it through a new employer, I’d be extremely careful about any gaps in coverage that might happen while changing jobs.

  6. Lily in NYC*

    I made a random comment in the holiday party thread yesterday about how much I hated working at Sports Illustrated and a few people asked me to come here today and elaborate. My career in publishing began at USNews & World Report, which to this day is the best job I’ve ever had. I was good at it, got promoted three times and loved my coworkers.

    However, it was the early 2000s and print media was in trouble so I was sure I was going to be in the next round of layoffs (I made it through 3 rounds and knew my luck was running out). Sports Illustrated had been trying to poach me but they pay crap and I didn’t want to move to NYC. But I finally accepted the job and moved. I knew on my first day that I had made a huge mistake – it just felt “wrong”. My boss took me aside and started telling me how she can tell who is “saved” within a few minutes and that I needed to attend her church in New Jersey with her on Sunday. I was like WHAT THE HELL??? I must have had the only fundamentalist boss in the history of media in NYC (incredibly liberal field). Even worse, none of the production people who reported to me would give me the time of day – they completely shunned me.

    Someone finally told me that a guy on the production team had been promoted into my role and couldn’t hack it so he got demoted back to his old job and they hired me. So he and his friends hated me and refused to talk to me (they did the work, but grudgingly). It was also clear that the other two young female managers were mad because they wanted their buddy at Sports Illustrated for Women (short lived title) to get the job instead of me. So they shunned me as well. It was awful because they truly acted like mean-girls and it was the first bullying experience in my life. They lied to the fundamentalist boss about me and said things like that I rolled my eyes at her (total BS but they kissed her butt and went to her stupid church with her so she loved them). I got written up for saying “wow, Terry (the top boss of SI at the time) is in a bad mood” after he had screamed at my supervisor in a meeting. Seriously, I got called into a closed door meeting and written up for saying it – Terry ended up finding out and made them back off (he actually liked me). I hated every minute of that job and the only person who was nice to me was a manager who had gotten demoted for having an affair and was also being shunned.

    I am a normal and friendly person who has always been very well-liked at my jobs so this was just so foreign and traumatizing for me. I started looking for a new job after four months. Right after I started looking, Sports Illustrated for Women got shut down and they fired me to give their friend the job (the one they wanted in the first place). They knew they were screwing me over because I got 6 months’ severance for a job that lasted 5 months. Time Warner Inc. is a strange company (parent company). I have friends at People and In Style and the hierarchy is awful and unlike any other media company. I felt like they wanted me to be a Stepford Wife. Whew, that was long. The End.

    1. fposte*

      This sounds really horrible, Lily, but it’s also fascinating to hear about (I did not see fundamentalist boss coming). I’m glad you’re on to better things.

    2. publishing anon*

      This is how I felt about Conde Nast, and then again at Random House. National Geographic was the first job I had and it was pretty good and normal for the industry. It had its quirks, but it was nothing like the bullying and BS I endured at Conde Nast and Random House. I made the switch to academic publishing after, and there was less bullying, but it was a weirder environment.

      I left publishing recently and I honestly do not regret leaving the industry. It was the worst. I feel bad for my friends who are still in it and miserable. I know a few people who work at In Style, and they really hate their jobs.

      1. Horizon Walker Ranger*

        In what ways would you say academic publishing is weird in your experience? I’ve worked for a society journal for 3 years in a city without much publishing, so I’m always curious to hear what it’s like elsewhere.

        1. publishing anon*

          I found it to be a lot of very socially awkward people who didn’t want to converse with anyone or work with anyone but themselves, and just wanted to stay in their own bubbles. Which is hard when you’re supposed to be collaborative and it’s like pulling teeth just to get people to communicate.

          There was a lot of “this is how I act and anyone who doesn’t like these things is wrong and weird”. In the last company I worked at, the marketing department had quarterly lunches at a nice restaurant and lot of the people I worked with acted like the marketing department were anathema just because they wanted to go out to lunch with their colleagues. I literally heard people say that anyone who didn’t eat by themselves at their desk was “unusual”. People would get annoyed if you asked “how’s it going?” when passing in the hall or when you were both in the kitchen getting coffee.

          There were also a lot of people who were very, very bitter that they were working in academic publishing and not trade publishing.

          It was such an opposite environment from the other publishing companies I worked with, and honestly introverted to the extreme. It was exhausting.

          1. Liet-Kinda*

            “There was a lot of “this is how I act and anyone who doesn’t like these things is wrong and weird””.

            That sounds familiar, posting here.

            1. Jen RO*

              What, you mean some people actually enjoy getting to know their coworkers as people and don’t hate socializing? Nowai!

          2. Not Paul Hollywood*

            “People would get annoyed if you asked “how’s it going?” when passing in the hall or when you were both in the kitchen getting coffee.”

            Do I need to go work in academic publishing? I also get annoyed by this.

          3. Lissa*

            Oh that’s funny. I feel like there are several commenters here who would love that environment! I’d find it as exhausting as the opposite after a time I think, but I am boringly moderate. And also never turn down food.

            1. publishing anon*

              Yeah, I’m sure there’ll be a bunch of people who think this is a great environment. I don’t need to talk to people every minute of the day, but to have people snap at you merely for saying good morning is a not worth dealing with imo.

          4. Another Publishing Anon*

            I also worked in academic publishing for a while. I had a similar experience, though maybe more positive. The culture was similar – people very much kept to themselves. Communication was very formal. People would get offended if your emails weren’t polite enough.

            Most of the people I worked with were nice, but there were some very socially awkward, bitter people on power trips and those people always got promoted for some reason.

            I’m a purple squirrel. I have one of those rare jobs where there’s one per office and no one understands what you do. So I got to see a lot while mostly staying out of it. My job was pretty peaceful and sheltered from the less pleasant stuff. Overall, it was a good job.

            But, yeah, there was that uniquely formal communication style and it was considered unusual to talk to people. Very, “Stay quiet and don’t rock the boat.” But I had my own office and the hours were very reasonable. I had good bosses. It was mostly pretty good.

          5. Jess*

            I work in academia as well (but in a more patron-service position) and yeah, I hate it. I’m introverted myself, but trying to avoid communicating with anyone ever is not how things get accomplished. The number of honest-to-god adults that seem to think otherwise, though…

            1. publishing anon*

              Yes. I’m somewhere between extroverted and introverted, but academic publishing forced me to be more extroverted because it was such an extreme introversion that I needed to actually force people into conversations otherwise I’d never know what was going on because no one wanted to talk about anything – no chats, no emails, no meetings, no conversations.

              I understand being introverted, but honestly, expecting no communication at all for eight hours a day, five days a week is exhausting. It’s a miserable way to work.

          6. Horizon Walker Ranger*

            Okay, yeah that seems to jive pretty well with my experience. I like to quietly do my own thing in my own space so it suits me well and I like that the authors and editors I work with rarely pick up the phone to call me. My department and the rest of my org is generally social so it’s a good balance.

      2. annakarina1*

        I wanted to work in publishing as an undergrad in the mid-2000s, but despite that I enjoyed writing, I found I didn’t like the publishing environment as much. I interned for Good Housekeeping and found the editors to be snobs who saw their readers to be simple-minded Midwestern housewives while they worked in a fancy Hearst building in Manhattan. I also had bad times in editorial at a film magazine that thought they were outside the mainstream Hollywood scene, but still had an elitist attitude about who was “hip” enough to be in their circle and sucked up to Hollywood-adjacent directors and actors. I switched to working to artsy nonprofits, then found my real career in archives.

        1. publishing anon*

          Oh, yes, the elitism was awful. There was a different type of elitism at Conde Nast than Random House, but I feel like publishing just has this thread of elitism running through it. Even academic publishing had it.

      3. anon for this one*

        Do you mind if I ask how you managed to transition out of publishing? I’m thinking of doing so myself but am having trouble envisioning where I’d be able to move without having to go back to an entry level job/salary.

        1. publishing anon*

          I transferred my print editorial job to digital editorial when I was still in the industry, and when I moved to academic publishing, I went for a digital project management job. This helped me get a job outside the industry because it’s a pretty easy skill to transfer.

    3. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Wow. I’m so sorry you had to go through so much crap. I hope your following job was less weird.

    5. MissDisplaced*

      “I must have had the only fundamentalist boss in the history of media in NYC”

      OMG! LOL! Long term magazine and B2B publishing alum here and yes that’s odd.
      I guess your experience wasn’t like the movie with Dennis Quaid (In Good Company).

      Magazine publishing has become extremely difficult and I also left it in the mid-2000’s.

  7. WellRed*

    When are we going to stop seeing phrases like “work bitch” used like it’s…OK? This isn’t a criticism of this morning’s LW, but that, along with the usual “I don’t see anything sexist” here comments just really irked me today.

    1. kittymommy*

      I didn’t comment in that thread but when someone says OP in a response, I think of the original poster in the comment thread, not the actual writer of the letter (and the letter being commented on). So when the response didn’t see anything sexist to the OP it was regarding the story in the comment, which if I recall didn’t have anything sexist mentioned in it (though it might have been, it just wasn’t in there).

      Just my interpretation.

    2. ThankYouRoman*

      Argh. A couple years ago we got an application for an opening for a Shop Assistant. And some unfunny jackhole filled out an app, under the “what position are you applying for” section he wrote “Shop Bitch”.

      Considering the low bar we had for hiring, we still disregarded him as an option.

      Tangent aside, I too am ready for that kind of crappy attitude and wording to be extinct.

    3. LW1*

      LW from this morning here. I do think that “work bitch” is sexist and offensive, which is why I included it in my letter. Even if he didn’t mean it in a sexist way (as others argued), the word is inherently sexist, and using it to describe a position historically held by women makes it impossible to ignore the connotations. I think my friend has some entitlement issues in general that prevent him from taking the role seriously.

      1. WellRed*

        I agree, LW. Many people don’t think of it as overtly sexist but it is. Good luck with your friend.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Of course it is–the whole purpose of using the word is that it implies that a man is subservient, “as a woman should be”. I cannot think of a single instance I’ve ever seen in which, when used in this kind of context, it wasn’t sexist. It’s just so normalized that if people don’t use it with “I’m trying to emasculate this guy” on their minds, they don’t notice it right away.

      3. strawberries and raspberries*

        Your friend’s behavior from your description reeked of toxic masculinity, but also of performance anxiety. He reminds me of some guys I’ve known in the past who internalize these (often culture-bound) family screeds about YOU’RE GOING TO BE A DOCTOR BECAUSE MEN ARE DOCTORS, and they’re pushed tremendously to be academically successful but not necessarily given any coaching on actual people skills or building self-worth. Then when they don’t really want to be a doctor or they get anxious or start to doubt themselves, they can’t tell anyone and have no outlet for it, so they do self-sabotaging things like watch TV in secret all day at their lab-based job while doubling down on the MEN ARE DOCTORS theme with everyone else in their life.

        All this to say that your friend sounds hella entitled, for sure, but inside he’s probably not feeling as cocky as he wants everyone to believe.

    4. Yay commenting on AAM!*

      I did post this in the thread over there, but I think the term “work bitch” is used as a comparison to “prison bitch”, ex: a low-ranked weakling who has to submit to everything the more powerful people want, up to and including being sexually violated.

      2. ThankYouRoman*

        And they’re equating the Weak Man to a degraded woman who’s there to cook clean and satisfy.

        1. RUKiddingMe*

          Of course it is because the person normally being violated will be a woman. In prison they have to make do by turning some male into as close as they can get to a woman.

    5. mollie*

      Terrible Confession time:
      I was interviewing for an Office Manager position with a plumbing firm and I actually, Proudly, told the recruiter that I was the office bitch at my current position.

      I worked in a 3 person office of a manufacturing plant – Male Manager, Male sales person, and myself who did anything required from assigning work, sales/reception, admin work to springing the manager’s dogs from the pound when the gas man left the back gate open and dropping his kids off at school. When I used the term in the interview, I meant it to reflect that I was firm, no-nonsense, kept the office and the manufacturing teams in line and I was the one to make sure that policies, best practices, and deadlines were adhered too. The manager wasn’t very organized and also hated the daily tasks of Supervising so left that to me. He generally settled complaints from the manufacturing plant with “Why are you in here? Do what she said” And the whole group just started calling me the office bitch. This was my first full time, permanent role and the only thing I knew about manufacturing plants was the crap you see on TV so I didn’t think anything of it and wore the name as a badge of pride that I was doing my job. I cringe and am embarrassed now but it took me way to long to figure out why I wasn’t contacted after the interview.

      1. ThankYouRoman*

        I’m horrified that you were treated like this. I’m a career Accountant/Controller/Ops/Business/Office Manager in manufacturing and it hurts to see such a crappy stereotype situation spoken about.

        I’m glad you know it’s not right after you’re removed from the unsavory setup. That’s not the norm or generally acceptable behavior in a properly ran facility.

    6. Anon Office Dog*

      I admit I used this term in relation to situations I’ve found myself and my teammates in occasionally, when we would find ourselves being bossed around by people we were not reporting to (in a most recent case an outside contractor company), who would expect us to be at their beck and call and to drop everything anytime they’d send us a question or a request.

      I now see that the term is sexist and homophobic (the “prison” part), and don’t want to use it anymore. But what do I use instead? what do you call being pushed around by random coworkers? “team player”?

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Ha. For me “treated like mushrooms” means the employer keeps you in the dark and feeds you BS.

          (I may have issues with my company, but for the most part they have avoided THIS particular sin.)

      2. Autumnheart*

        I’d say something like, “They act like I’m their personal assistant.” The position of personal assistant does formally exist, but the context makes it clear that such a position doesn’t exist in your hierarchy, and even if it did, you’re not in it.

      3. Drop Bear*

        I have an employee who said he was treated at his last job like a ‘service droid’. We all knew what he meant.

      5. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Tweak the phrase you used: “the company overlooked the way co-workers would push around the newest* employees.”
        (*Or female or black or the one from out of town or …)

      6. RUKiddingMe*

        Anything else that’s not sexist/gendered. You gotta find what works for you.

        I have been on a personal mission to eradicate the B, C, W, et al words from use…particularly my own got a while now.

        It takes conscious effort, every single time, but oh about five years on now I am pretty much cured from the social conditioning that taught me that they were not only ok, but desirable even.

        Also…Husband doesn’t use them anymore either. I made a convert!

        You can do it!

      7. Grinch*

        I thought about this and came up with:
        office gopher
        underling
        henchmen (tongue-in-cheek)
        lowly ~~

        For less of an evil-villain vibe:
        newbie
        junior rank/member
        freshman
        code monkey
        I just do the grunt work

        But as problematic as the term is, it’s hard to find a good replacement that combines the nature of the relationship (doing drudge work that higher-ups don’t want to do) and how you feel about it (strongly resentful yet resigned).

      8. SavannahMiranda*

        I always heard “chief cook and bottle washer.” In other words, the do-everything person who is supposed to superhumanly span duties ranging from leadership decision making and high-intensity, high-responsibility even supervisory tasks, all the way down to collating, coffee fetching, and general runner when someone says “jump.”

        Impossible of course, and built into the words as they describe it. “Joe at Acme Client expects me to be his chief cook and bottle washer but I can’t meet all his unreasonable demands.”

  8. Wannabe Disney Princess*

    You guys.

    I HAVE A NEW JOB!!!!!

    Better salary, better (and cheaper for me!) insurance. Plus….my commute is cut in half.

    I am so excited, I can’t stand it.

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      OMG YAY!

      Legit just asked in my own comment if you had an update! So happy for you <3

    13. Emily S.*

      So excited for you! Congratulations x1000!
      That is so awesome about the pay and commute, and everything. I know it took a very long time.

      Woohoo! Awesome way to start the weekend!

  9. Shark Whisperer*

    We are getting into review season at my company. My manager sent out emails asking if we have any feedback for our colleagues. I am not sure what to put for one particular co-worker. Full disclosure: I have only been at this job for about 3 months.

    There is one peer who’s work most closely overlaps with mine. Overall she has been fantastic about training me and answering all of my questions as I learn the ropes. But our manager also asked for things our co-workers can work on. I’m not sure if her weakness is something I should mention or not.

    She takes everythings super personally and always assumes bad intentions. Here are some examples:
    – She hates the chief of staff and thinks he’s a jerk who thinks she’s stupid because she asked him what a term meant in a meeting and he defined it for her (in my opinion, his tone was matter of fact, not condiscending)
    -There are multiple (equally valid, management approved)processes for lots of things we do here, when I don’t do something the exact way she would have done it, she just assumes that I haven’t done it at all
    -We presented together at the end of an all day meeting and people were kinda checked out (because it was an all day meeting and about half the staff had flown in from the opposite coast the day before), she believes this indicates that no one on the team respects her and is still angry about it a month later
    -Our director was out on maternity leave when I was hired. This coworker freaked me out by making me believe that the director was some sort of monster who hates everyone and doesn’t care about her employees. Well, she’s back now and is actually lovely to work for (at least for the last 2 months she has been back)

    Since I haven’t been here that long and I work more closely with her than anyone else, I am not sure how much other people are aware or how it really affects how she deals with people. Should I say something or not say something?

    1. Beehoppy*

      YMMV, but if you’ve only been there 3 months I might hold off. There may be a lot of dynamics in play that you’re just not aware of yet. At my last job I was drinking the KoolAid for the first 6-8 months and strongly disliked a coworker I thought had a bad attitude. Came to find out once the Koolaid wore off that she was right about a lot of things and had a bad attitude from putting up with their crap for ten years. Sit back and observe a little longer.

    2. Psyche*

      I probably wouldn’t give this feedback for the review. I would want to wait and see how coworker feedback gets incorporated into the reviews and how it is delivered. However, you can talk to your manager about some of the problems and ask for advice about how to handle it. In particular, I would probably mention the part where you say that if you do not do something the exact way she would have done she assumes you didn’t do it. You can phrase it as wanting to have better communication, but you don’t want her to be telling your boss that you aren’t doing tasks when that is not true.

      1. Bostonian*

        I agree that a review is not the place to provide this feedback. I would even hesitate to tell your (shared?) manager at this point.

        Are you close enough to the coworker that you can get a better feel for what’s going on? Like, go out together and grab a coffee and say something like, “you seem unhappy about X, what’s going on?”

        1. Shark Whisperer*

          It is our shared manager. I have talked to her directly before. It’s not that she seems unhappy overall, she just takes every perceived slight as an insult. She is kin of aware that she does this, but she doesn’t seem to think it affects her work relationships in any way, and maybe it doesn’t! I’m too new to know, but it definitely seems like something that could.

          1. valentine*

            It’s affected her relationship with you, including reducing the weight you put on her perspective. You can dial back on being the audience for her extreme negativity and (outside the feedback) ask your manager about the exact-process issue.

    3. ThankYouRoman*

      I agree with Beehoppy to sit back a bit.

      She may have a chip on her shoulder for very real reason! She may not, my Negative Nancy chipped AF coworker ended up being just miserable by her own hand. But prior my psycho boss took time to snap on people. I wasn’t warned. I quit and my team then ran to me all “arrrrgh he did it to you too, this is his MO.”

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      Well, one question to ask is whether or not your feedback will be anonymous, and the other question for you is how much you trust your boss to take your feedback as constructive, well meant criticism versus thinking you’re a negative person and looking at you differently because of it.

      So. Assuming your boss will be appreciative of well thought out constructive feedback and that it will be kept anonymous, I don’t see anything wrong with providing feedback that you think will be truly useful for someone. And always make sure to sing her praises if you do think she’s great but just has some things to work on. It’s too often that people harp on the negative and don’t give the positive as well (and can make you look just like them for focusing on the negative). So, something like “Lucinda has been extremely helpful, always being willing to support me and answer my questions. She’s awesome at blah blah blah. One area that she may benefit from improvement in is a more trusting attitude towards her coworker. It appears that at times she interprets people’s tones as negative when they are meant to be helpful or lack of people’s enthusiasm as an indicator that they aren’t supportive.” Something like that.

      I would leave out the piece about your director entirely, because feedback of “she trashed our director behind her back” is not actually a constructive area to work on, but does kind of roll into the “trusting attitude” idea.

    5. samiratou*

      How’s your boss?

      If your boss is the type to turn right around to Jane and and say “Shark says…” and repeat verbatim what you told her, then I wouldn’t say anything.

      If your boss is pretty well tuned-in and a good boss overall, your boss shouldn’t be surprised to hear some of these things and should be able to take the feedback to Jane in a way that doesn’t throw you under the bus. I’m not sure, as a boss, how I would have the “ya know, it’s not always about you.” conversation but that’s why she’s the boss.

    6. Elaine*

      Some places are sincere about asking for feedback and others are not. If I were in your situation only 3 months in, I would err on the side of caution and say nothing. By the next round of reviews, you will have a good idea of how your organization actually does handle this kind of thing.

    7. MissDisplaced*

      At 3 months, I would not get into her attitude. Speak to what you can speak to in hard facts about her work, such has how she has been at training you, if she did her part of the shared project/presentation, etc.

      Perhaps she does have a crappy hamper attitude, but it’s not your place (at least right now) for you to address it.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Agreed. Three months is too soon. Put down the positives that you mention here and let the rest go. She probably has one foot out the door, as a newbie you can lighten your load 9 and hers) by not ticking her off, it’s a short trip for her anyway.
        It can take a year or several years for a new person to fully understand what the long term employee is complaining about. Assume they know about her attitude but she does enough for the company that they have decided to keep her.
        Float over the top of all this, don’t get sucked in. That looks like, “Yes, problem X is happening, but it does not impact me and here is why: I am new, she is doing a good job training me, we work well together, etc.” (One of my pet things to do is use an attitude of gratitude with anyone who gives me good training.)

    8. Shark Whisperer*

      Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I shall focus on the positives in any feedback I give.

  10. Detective Amy Santiago*

    Had an amazing six month review today! So happy with my new job.

    Wannabe Disney Princess – any updates on your job search?

    1. ThankYouRoman*

      Wonderful 6 month reviews give me fuzzy feels. I remember mine, it ate at me leading up with the toxic baggage from before floating in my head and then getting the whole “you’re great, you’re even more awesome than we had hoped, etc etc.” was truly thrilling.

    2. Sally*

      :) Wannabe Disney Princess posted at the same time as you saying that she has a new job. :) It’s just a little up the page.

  11. breathing into paper bag*

    I just gotta say that this employee I’m trying to manage is as toxic an individual as I’ve ever been unable to distance myself from and it’s really starting to take a toll on me. I’ve never managed anyone until now, and it’s like someone just hot-potatoed this situation to me, and I have literally nobody to toss to, and I’m having an extremely hard time not feeling extremely resentful of my boss, who gave employee a glowing performance review despite knowing the copious issues.

    1. fposte*

      How long has the employee been there? What would happen if you made a case for termination and replacement?

      1. breathing into paper bag*

        Four years, and literally everyone knows this person is unproductive and not only unhelpful but hostile to colleagues. I’ve gotten the ball rolling on the termination process but it’s completely new to me and now that my boss agrees that this employee needs out, I’m getting pressure to get it done now-now-now. Which, like, I don’t know how to do that appropriately and I’ve never negotiated this kind of situation before, and I’m following HR’s advice to the letter, but in the meantime I’m trying to manage someone who is trying to wage psychological warfare. Not very effectively, but still.

        1. Mephyle*

          If you’re getting pressure to get it done faster, then is it possible to leverage this to ask for an increased level of guidance from the source of the pressure as to how to do it faster?

    2. neverjaunty*

      Can you sit down with boss and ask about the performance review? I mean are they old frat buddies or what?

      1. breathing into paper bag*

        Nah, not old frat buddies – boss is a very generous, gentle person, which is wonderful but in this case it screwed me over severely. I haven’t asked directly about the performance review but if I get another question about “when can we move on Employee, what’s taking so long” I might just snap and tell him it could’ve been done weeks ago if he hadn’t built a body of documentation saying everything was awesome.

        1. ThankYouRoman*

          LOUD NOISES.

          My God. This is why the rubber stamped polished nicey nicey reviews are terrible and will circle around to bite someone’s backside. I’m so sorry.

          I’m relieved termination is on the table at least. Try to focus on the light at the end of the tunnel. You will be able to have a better conversation AFTER the toxic employee is gone about how reviews can’t be so gentle and fake.

            1. ThankYouRoman*

              That’s because you’re a good person who wants to improve if necessary!

              Sadly many people in management are too afraid of confronting an issue, they ignore it and say you’re great. Even though in this situation the employee is wretched.

              An HR nightmare. And now their UI rates will increase because they didn’t document and try to fix the performance issues. Ick.

        2. neverjaunty*

          Don’t you think it’s interesting that Boss was “nice” to this employee but not at all nice to you?

          Rather than wait for him to snap, maybe sit down with him and explain (as calmly as you can manage) why this was a problem?

        3. Marthooh*

          Ugh. Figure out a professional way of saying “Your phony performance review is screwing everything up, dude, so don’t blame me” and practice saying that into a mirror until you can do it with a straight face, at normal volume.

          “Unfortunately, it will take time to build up enough documentation of poor performance to counterbalance the flopping nonsense their FORMER MANGER SAW FIT TO FOIST UPON THIS COMPANY! Er, that is to say, the overenthusiastic reviews they were given previously.”

          Gaw, that’s annoying.

    3. LKW*

      I know a couple of people who’ve been in similar shoes. Their predecessors gave reviews that would enable poor performers to transfer, had they given them the deserved review, they’d be prevented from doing so. However, the poor performers don’t transfer. They never transfer.

      What kinds of psych warfare – we might be able to give some good coping techniques. Plus, some of us are rather evil. OK, it’s me. I am rather evil.

    4. Not So Super-visor*

      oh! I have one of those employees too!! She’s a nightmare. I dread every one-on-one meeting that I have with her because she can’t take criticism, and I end up in HR because she files a complaint unless I do nothing but compliment her. Her stats are high but her customer relationship skills are terrible. My boss loves her stats and has prevented her from being terminated even after some super-shady stuff went down. I’m also really resentful of my boss, but I keep plugging away. I end up documenting every interaction that I have with her no matter how minor in case she goes to HR (and she has about some really petty stuff)

  12. Toosensitive?*

    A new twist in the messy work kitchen conundrum. Someone put up a cute photo of their baby over the sink, with funny caption and disapproving look. A few days ago photo #2 appeared alongside photo 1 with a “great that the kitchen is cleaner!” One of my direct reports–who is struggling with infertility– mentioned that this is painful during supervision. She added that she didn’t want to make trouble, and she doesn’t want to be outed to HR but … Advice, dear commentariat?

    1. MechanicalPencil*

      If you’re wanting to achieve that cutesy messaging, you can do the same with puppies and kittens. Babies down, animals up. Less offensive all around. If someone asks what happened to the baby photos, “oh, I accidentally soaked them when I was cleaning”.

      1. Toosensitive?*

        neither of the C levels has pets and they adore babies. That might be a hard sell. But I thought of that!

      2. ThankYouRoman*

        Cartoons. Not pictures of anything real if you want to really crack down on the toes being stepped on.

        You’re setting up for “my cat just died and looks exactly like that pic of Francine’s that is posted!!”

      3. Holly*

        What if someone’s dog or cat died recently? That could offend someone too. (My point being, I don’t think there’s action that can be taken here.)

        1. Anon Anon Anon*

          Yeah, pretty much everything could offend someone, but not putting personal family photos in shared spaces seems like a good idea. It might be different if it was a generic greeting card baby.

    2. AnonAnon*

      Does your report want you to take any action, or did she just want to share with you something that’s going on with her? (Does she, for example, want you to take down the signs, or give a heads up to the folks who put them up that they may not be well-received by all?)

      If she’s asking you to take action: As a woman who is also struggling with infertility (2 years, yay)… I don’t think that’s reasonable. Other people have children, and are allowed to share funny pictures of them. I shouldn’t expect other people to delicately step around the topic of children just because I’m not currently able to get pregnant. It sounds like the picture feels really personal to her — yet another reminder of something she’s really sad about — but it’s not.

      1. anon today and tomorrow*

        There’s nothing wrong with sharing pictures of your kids in your own space at work, but I’d be annoyed if it suddenly started being okay for people to post baby pictures in the cafeteria or on the break room fridge or in other work common spaces. That’s just weird to me, to be honest.

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          Yeah, whether or not you’re struggling, I think pictures of other peoples’ kids in public space is annoying, and an overstep on their part.

          1. AnonAnon*

            Wow, I really think you (and others) are overreacting. And I say this as very much not a kid person (who is nonetheless trying to get pregnant; we contain multitudes).

            Putting up a picture as a part of a snarky/joking reminder to clean the dishes is, at worst, a 15-second eyeroll (“Surprise surprise, Damon found a way to insert the baby into the conversation again”).

            1. Anon for this One*

              I disagree. Some people (myself) would just roll their eyes this if it was around for a day or two, but to have to see it every time I went into the lunch room? I personally think babies are a bit uncomfortable to look at, and I’d definitely stop using the lunch room if I had to look at them every day. Ick.

              I couldn’t imagine how painful this would be for someone who was trying to conceive.

              1. Anon Anon Anon*

                I would be annoyed that someone was sort of dominating the space. Especially if it was a more senior person or even someone on a path to become more senior. It’s kind of like saying, “This is part of my office and you have to look at my stuff while you’re here.”

            2. anon today and tomorrow*

              I don’t really think my annoyance at seeing a picture of someone’s kid in a public space where there aren’t usually personal pictures is overreacting.

              People don’t randomly put pictures of their kids or pets or hobbies up in common spaces without expecting someone to comment on it. If the coworker put up a picture of their kid in a public space, it’s intended for people to react to the picture, and a lot of people are going to be put off by that the same way they’d be put off by someone shoving the picture in their face during a conversation and expecting a response. There’s nothing wrong with feeling that way.

              1. AnonAnon*

                I could understand your annoyance if someone were, like, decorating the common office spaces with pictures of their kids (but still: that would fall into the category of weird-but-whatever colleague habits, like how Amy says “Howdy howdy!” instead of “Hello” or whatever). But this person just… used a picture of their kid as a meme. The point of the picture wasn’t “All ye who enter, admire my offspring” but “C’mon, folks, do the damn dishes.”

              3. Jule*

                “If the coworker put up a picture of their kid in a public space, it’s intended for people to react to the picture”

                This is reading so much into something that doesn’t exist. The point of the picture was to soften a request that people clean up their trash in the kitchen. In no way does that resemble “shoving” a picture in someone’s face.

                1. anon today and tomorrow*

                  The whole point of pictures is to get a reaction, even if that reaction is “look at this picture to know to throw away your trash”. I never said it resembles shoving a picture in someone’s face, just that some people will be annoyed with it the same way they’d be annoyed by someone shoving a picture in their face.

      2. TGIF*

        I’m with you. I come from a family with infertility issues, so I know it can be a struggle, but no baby pictures seems like a weird ask.

        In my office, it is normal for a mom out on maternity leave to send a photo of the new baby with the reassurance that everyone is happy and healthy. In my department, we send an email around with the photo. Another department printed the photo and taped it to their shared fridge, which stayed up for at least a month.

        I’m sure there are women in the office who struggle with this but you can’t ban all baby photos and news from the public space. That seems way too drastic.

      3. Lissa*

        Yeah…. Coming at it from the opposite place, I’m not in any way a baby person, but I think that it’s not particularly weird to put it up and like…I don’t know, if you’re going to say someone shouldn’t have a baby picture up, I really think the same rules need to apply to people’s pets or other hobbies. It’s also kind of a read the room thing. An amusing picture would go over just fine in a lot of places I work, not at all in others.

        I think that there can be a skew towards “ew babies yay cats” on the internet and even though like…that is actually my personal feelings, it isn’t really a reasonable position to take as a policy. So I think no pictures at all if there’s going to be an official policy.

    3. Celeste*

      Do you know who put up the baby photo? I would take it down and return it to them (so they don’t get offended that someone threw away their baby’s picture). Say it’s not the look we want for the kitchen, and we prefer to be sensitive in the event of staff who may be dealing with fertility problems.

      1. Doc in a Box*

        +1

        I think the fact that it’s another coworker’s child, not Random Meme Baby, that makes it hard to address. It does feel weird and overstepping to throw away a photo of someone’s kid, even if they put it up in a jokey manner.

        They might not be aware of how painful it is for people who are childless not by choice. The person with infertility now has to stare at a cute baby when they just want to wash their dishes and get back to work. I’d hope that their response to this would be “oh gosh, i don’t want to cause pain to anyone!” and not “nyah nyah it’s my right to put my kid’s photo wherever I choose”

    4. Rose Tyler*

      I would probably just take them down and discard. Neither the photo with funny caption or secondary comment seem like things that the original poster would have intended to remain up for a long time. If something gets reposted then I’d say something to my boss or office manager about being sensitive to people experiencing infertility.

      1. Holly*

        Do you not think that this is an odd thing to do? I personally would not throw away a picture of someone’s child.

        1. anon today and tomorrow*

          For me, it really depends on the type of picture. If it’s a physical picture on photo paper, it would feel weird. If it’s a picture that was printed out on computer paper, I’d have no problem with it.

        2. Rose Tyler*

          Agree with Anon – I was assuming someone made a copy on the office machine. If it’s a ‘real’ photo I’d return it to the parent.

    5. Holly*

      I think you have to find a way to make sure your report feels heard and supported, but at the same time acknowledge that it’s not reasonable to ask the entire office not to mention babies or children, including posting photos… I worry this could be a slippery slope because people can always be going through things that make it difficult to hear about family/pets/etc but it’s such a standard part of office life and life in general, you can’t really ask people to suppress it. Maybe reassure the employee that you care about her struggles and refer to any and all resources your office has?

      1. Rose Tyler*

        My last post in this thread – I think this is different since it’s being posted in the break room/common space. I’m not suggesting policing what people have in their own offices, and would only intervene in what people discuss w/coworkers if it got truly out of hand with wall-to-wall baby talk.

        2. Holly*

          I agree if something truly got out of hand, it’s worth addressing – nothing in OP’s comment made it seem like anything got out of hand. Someone put up a picture of a baby. I am really really sympathetic to the report in this situation, but you can’t erase babies from existing.

    6. AtheistReader*

      Hmm. This is complicated, because I think it would be difficult to bring up infertility without it bringing up questions of who’s infertile. It’s going to happen – if you say, “This could offend people with infertility issues”, people are going to realize that is a specific person in the office – and your report might not be okay with that. Even if people don’t talk about it, people will wonder. Regardless of whether or not it’s reasonable to take down pictures due to her infertility, I am certain that NOT everyone in your office would be supportive of that reason. Almost certainly someone would not think it’s reasonable, and that could be a mess. It seems avoiding the actual cause is best for everyone involved.

      Instead, I would return the picture and put up an actual sign about cleaning the kitchen – so it can be put forward as “we’re actually concerned about cleaning the kitchen”, even if it’s another humorous sign.

      1. Kuododi*

        Throwing in my humble opinion…..Cancer made biological parenting an impossiblity for DH and myself years ago. It’s not a state secret but . not something I’ve advertised at my places of employment bc frankly it’s noones business. I have seen plenty of pictures of colleagues new babies, grandbabies, etc and at most, if I was having a rough day about my infertility I might give the picture a quick internal eyeroll. It’s impossible to make certain that everyone’s particular issues and sensitivities can be addressed at any given time. Frankly, Id be angry if I found out someone was trying to manage my feelings about children by purging the room of pictures bc someone “might” be offended. If one is concerned about my feelings, ask me what I need!!! Hope this makes sense and helps. Best regards.

        1. Dragoning*

          Well, in this case, the report DID bring up that they found it upsetting, so….well…this example doesn’t apply well.

        2. AtheistReader*

          I agree, I don’t think it’s fair to assume anything. But frankly, her situation is not the same as yours – she brought it up to her manager, she clearly does not the feel the same way you do, and there’s no harm in trying to help her feel better at work. There’s nothing wrong with how either of you feel, but your feelings are different than OPs report, and therefore not really applicable to the situation.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Ummm. I have a hard time with this issues where someone tells me something is upsetting them and then their solution seems to be do not tell anyone.

      Because it is an infertility issue, it just makes sense that as a boss you would want to do something/anything. But sometimes as a boss there is nothing we can do.

      I think as gently as possible I would say, “I really don’t know what to do here. I value your work and I think a lot of you as a person. This means if you are upset, I am concerned. If you have any ideas on what we can do here to ease this please let me know and I will think on it also.” Be sure to let her know that you are thinking on it.

      Your solution may be to move the pictures to one side. You could say you were worried about them getting splashed by water so close to the sink. I think if the pictures were off to one side, she could chose not to look at them. However, she has to use the sink and therefore she feels stuck looking at these pictures. If they are off to the side, away from the water source, the pics would remain dry and she could more easily chose to look away.

      Every so often one of my subordinates would bring me a head scratching problem and then compound it by saying, “Don’t tell anyone.” I finally drew my line, “If you are not ready for me to tell someone, then you need to think things through a little further before you bring me the problem. One thing you can think about is what types of solutions do you want me to consider.” Notice they don’t have to find The Solution but they do have to begin to trouble shoot the issue. This actually went really well, they would come up with several ideas and we would be able to work out a little plan.

      Now. You can’t make this statement right now because of this situation. So allow time to pass and then announce this. And you can say it in the context of, “Because I do care, it’s my nature to start trying to solve things. But I need to you help me along by tossing some ideas around with me.” I think part of why this went well is that the underlying message was, “I take your concerns seriously and I will help you.”

    8. Toosensitive?*

      Chiming in to thank everybody. These are blown up photos on copy paper about 6×9 and they are right over the sink. I admit when photo #2 went up I thought of putting up a pet photo. I’ll update next week!

      1. Lissa*

        I wonder if she might be less upset it was a collection of photos of different things – if babies are OK cats are too! (going by my prior comment of if a rule against baby photos, no cat photos either). In that case maybe your pet photo would be good!

      2. valentine*

        Why do you have to sell it? Your report is in pain you can reduce it by returning the photos and telling the parent to keep same in their own workspace. (Also: maybe no more signs because this could end up a passiveaggressivenotes pileup.)

      3. Windchime*

        We have someone at my workplace who posts passive aggressive notes about people putting items in the recycling bin without cleaning them to the note-poster’s satisfaction. I am one of the first to arrive at work in the morning, and if I’m feeling particularly cranky I will yank the notes down and toss them. I would probably remove the cute* baby pictures and replace them with a more neutral sign about cleaning dishes.

        *I’m picturing a photo of a smiling baby covered in spaghetti sauce. I don’t know why parents think those are cute, but I can’t stand those types of pictures and would absolutely yank that down. I like babies and I like pictures of babies, but the spaghetti-sauce pics gross me out.

  13. ExcelJedi*

    With daylight savings, this week has been SO HARD. SAD is creeping up on me, and I’m trying to stay ahead of it despite not having access to any sunlight at work.

    No specific advice needed, but a thread for commiseration & general strategies would be nice.

    1. BeanCat*

      Ugh, I feel this so hard and I’m really sorry. It’s a rough season :(

      If you’re not able to get outside at all during the day, could you potentially get one of those little lamps or a light box specialized for SAD?

      Otherwise I’d try to have something green on my area – I might get a poinsettia once we hit December, for example.

      Solidarity jedi hugs if you want them!

      1. ExcelJedi*

        Jedi hugs are appreciated!

        I’ve been taking lunchtime walks, and it’s usually enough to help me. This year I might get a few plants, too. Fortunately my current job is in a nice area, so I’ll be able to take walks almost all winter.

        1. Gumby*

          Not sure if shorter more frequent walks would be helpful (from a time-management or ‘more doses of sunlight throughout the day’ perspective) but it’s another option. I have low vitamin D (because I burn easily and would avoid the sun even if I didn’t work entirely indoors) and set up reminders every 2 hours to go take a 5-minute walk. Which I, admittedly, ignore about 50% of the time. Sigh. And today you couldn’t pay me enough to go out and walk in the brown air around here – the Camp fire is doing a number on air quality.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            I have friends in Denmark. They suggest getting early in the morning for at least 10 minutes –no windows or glasses between you & the upcoming sunbeams. This is in addition to a longer stretch when it’s warmer & brighter.
            For me I’m finding that it’s helping to have lots of plants under bright LED lights and take the time to tend them

    2. Beehoppy*

      The struggle is real. I thought it would be easier this year since I’m working from home and not driving home in darkness, but no luck. I’m not sure if it would work for you, but are you able to get outside at all for lunch? Several friends have sun lamps and swear by them. Last year I also started taking Vitamin D supplements: they can help with SAD and also reduce your susceptibility to colds.

      1. ExcelJedi*

        Vitamin D supplements are definitely something to look into! I’m terrible at vitamins generally, but it’s worth trying.

        1. Qwerty*

          Is the problem remembering to take them? If so, what’s worked for me is to stash them in several places. If I forget to take one in the morning, then hopefully I’ll notice the pill bottle on my desk or on my kitchen counter. The idea is to make it visible – if I have to move the vitamins out of the way to get a plate/bowl for my dinner, I’m far more likely to remember that I’m supposed to be taking them. You don’t even need to buy multiple bottle, just split the main bottle into ziploc baggies or old pill bottles.

          You might get a couple of questions if the vitamin D bottle is obvious at work, but usually the outcome I’ve had from those conversations is for my coworkers to start trying it themselves.

          1. PhyllisB*

            You can always use the OLD PERSON option (my children’s words, not mine.) Get one of those pill boxes with the days of the week on them and put your pills in there. I place mine by the coffee maker and see it every morning. Another option is to set an alarm on your phone for a time that’s convenient for you. I take my BP med at 6:30 in the evening, and even my grand-children knows what it means when it goes off. If I’m in another room I’ll hear, “Gram!! Take your medicine!!” One of them will even bring it to me.

            1. Windchime*

              I use those little pill things, too. Otherwise, I would get confused about whether or not I’d already taken my medicine. I have morning medicine and nighttime medicine, so every week I just fill up my little pill containers and it’s so much easier. I don’t care if people think they are for “old people” (I guess I’m kind of old, so maybe they are? LOL).

              A doctor told me once that it’s almost impossible for anyone this far north (Washington state) to get enough vitamin D from sunlight alone; the angle of the sun simply doesn’t permit it. I don’t know if that’s true but it’s something to think about.

    3. Mimmy*

      Commiseration: I sometimes wonder if I have a little bit of SAD myself, but I react to the wild swings that comes with the change of seasons – like now it’s the fall, the leaves are falling, it’s getting gloomier, darker and colder. My mood usually improves by mid-spring when it’s brighter and greener. Also, one of my coworkers has SAD, and his work area has very little sunlight. He mentioned in the last week or so that he’s been having trouble getting up in the mornings – I hope he’ll be okay.

      1. Autumnheart*

        He may want to consider a lamp with a smart bulb, both at work and at home. Philips Hue bulbs have a function where you can set it to fade both on and off in order to emulate a sunrise or a sunset. The full-color ones can also be set to whatever color you like, so a warm yellow/orange light might be to their benefit. Philips also makes an alarm clock with a sunrise/sunset light function built into it. It’s a bit spendy (over $100) but might well be worth the money if it does the trick.

    4. Free now (and forever)*

      Thank God for light boxes! I started using mine in September. I’m now retired, so I use it when I ride my exercise bike in the morning. If I had a desk job, I’d keep it on a corner of my desk and use it first thing in the morning when I got to work. They make some relatively small ones now, so they don’t take up too much room. And frankly, I also go to bed earlier st this time of year. My brain wishes it could always be May through July.

      1. Liane*

        Do you know if the light bulbs labeled daylight are helpful at all or does it have to be the special light boxes? Husband has bad problems with SAD & he just got some GE Classic LED daylight bulbs. I have been encouraging him to ask his Veterans Administration doctors to prescribe the light boxes but who knows if they will.

        1. NotAPirate*

          I personally had more results with the actual box. I got one for $70 bucks on amazon about 5 years ago now. I can check the brand name after work tonight. The really big freestanding ones are a lot, but little ones are significantly cheaper. Maybe you’ll have more luck getting the VA to agree to prescribe the ~50$ range ones?

        2. Jordijojo*

          What matters is the intensity and spectrum of the light — 10,000 lux is the recommendation. I don’t think you’ll really find a ‘regular’ light bulb rated this high on that scale

      2. Jordijojo*

        Another vote for light boxes! I feel more energetic, especially in the morning, and I stopped gaining weight every winter like I usually do. I do it at least 3-4 times a week for 30 min to an hour in the morning.

    5. Annie Moose*

      Gonna be keeping my eye on this one… I need a better strategy to handle winter months than “try to keep a strict schedule and go outside sometimes”.

    6. Canadian Natasha*

      You can have all my commiseration! I’m afraid as a SAD newbie I’m short on any actual advice/strategies. (I’ll be watching the comments as well to see what helpful suggestions people make)

    7. Overeducated*

      Yeah, this is a hard time change, I’ve really been dragging. It’s rained most of the week here, making it even darker, but yesterday the sun was out and I went on a lunchtime walk and thought “wait, I have to do this all the time.” I have also been drinking my entire 3-cup pot of coffee by 10 or 11 am. So I’m reading to find out other people’s strategies as well….

    8. ThankYouRoman*

      *hugs*

      I’m sorry to hear this. Daylight Savings ending actually fixed my issues building up from having to wake up and leave before sunrise. So I’m extra sad it’s having a negative effect for you.

      I’m looking into a sun lamp for my mom. Have you tried one? Not saying they fix everything but they can help some folks.

      1. Dragoning*

        Personally, I’m finding waking up easier (thank God) but the lack of sun exposure is still starting to set of SAD symptoms…seeing light through my blinds helps me wake up, but it’s not giving me a lot of Vitamin D, you know?

        1. ThankYouRoman*

          I have a long enough commute that I can get a decent start on the day. My first battle is getting out of bed when the SAD starts to scratch at the door. But I totally can understand where it doesn’t increase the much needed D.

      2. Kat in VA*

        I’m in the same boat. Now that it’s actually light out when I leave, it’s easier for me to work. Driving home in the dark sucks, though. There’s a perfect month or so in summer where I get the best of both worlds…

    9. NeonFireworks*

      Ugh, I know this one! Things that have helped me: exercise, really good full-spectrum light throughout the house (the difference between getting home at 5 PM and doing four hours of work, and getting home at 5 PM and climbing into bed), a lot of vitamin D, trying to get outside even if the weather sucks, and (if you can afford it in terms of time and money) a winter trip to southern California. Something to look forward to, then drawn on, until April.

    10. Sapphire*

      Ooh yeah, this hits me so badly. I finally gave in and got a smart lightbulb kit so I could set them to turn on when I’m supposed to get up. It’s helped a lot now that it’s dark and cold in the mornings.

    11. Elaine*

      As others have commented, a light therapy box has really helped me. I have also found great success using a dawn simulator instead of an alarm clock. Some people do better with their dose of light therapy in the morning and others do better late afternoon/early evening. If you don’t respond to a morning dose, then a dawn simulator probably won’t help. You just have to experiment to find out which you are. If your employer allows a light therapy box at work, you’ll need to make sure you aren’t annoying coworkers – 10,000 lux is bright! The usual dose is for 20 minutes once a day, so you probably could work around being distracting for that short period of time.

      1. Canadian Natasha*

        I just got a dawn simulator alarm. It does the gradual brightening thing over 30 minutes and then starts playing a sound (several programmable options- I use a classical music one) at the end of the cycle. I haven’t used it long enough for a real evaluation but so far it is a nicer way to wake up then the usual horrible beeping alarm. (And anything that starts the day off better is worth it to me.) I just got a cheap version for ~$30.

      2. Ali G*

        I’ll post a link in a reply – I use a dawn simulator alarm clock, but it also doubles as a source of light therapy. Before I had this job, where I have a window, I took mine to the office for a second dose late morning.
        Mine starts lighting up 30 min before the time I set it too. then I usually snooze my alarm and either just lay there for 10 min with the light on me, or I read or something before actually getting out of bed. Then around 11 am I do another 20 min at full sunlight.

    12. OhGee*

      I’ve been forcing myself to get up early to exercise, because where I am, the sun has set by the time I leave work. It’s hard to push myself, but I ran or did a little bit of yard work 4 of 5 days this work week and it really helped to be outside for a bit – I have more energy and am going out tonight after work (I am generally pretty wishy washy about going out on a Friday, because the work week leaves me drained.) And I think the lunchtime walks you mention are a great idea.

      I also started doing winter hiking/snowshoeing last year, because I wanted to find a reason to love winter like I did when I was a kid. I’m planning to do a long hike every two weeks or so this winter.

    13. GibbsRule#18*

      Ugh, me too. I swear it gets harder every year. Didn’t help that it was/is rainy or overcast. Yesterday was the first day I felt somewhat better. Oh, and we have a puppy who just didn’t understand the time change so we’re up an hour earlier every day. My city is notorious for bad drivers and traffic has been even worse in the evening. It’s like they forget how to drive in the dark!

    14. Wishing You Well*

      Like a lot of others, I use a light box and vitamin D. I exercise and try not to stay up too late to maximize my daylight hours. Celebrate the winter solstice! I remind myself that every day after December 21 is LONGER because positive thoughts really do help. Put up holiday lights early if you feel like it. Those tiny rice lights oughta be standard year-round home decor!
      Brightest Wishes!

    15. Youth*

      I can commiserate! This year was the worst year of my life by far, so I’m being particularly diligent in trying to stay ahead of my SAD this year. I sit by a big window at work, but I’m looking into one of those natural lights for my basement apartment.

    16. Gene Parmesan*

      I started taking a DHA/EPA supplement (omega-3) for a separate health concern a couple years ago. One happy side effect I’ve noticed is that my winter blues/SAD is soooooo much better. Might be worth a try.

    18. AshK434*

      This is not work related and I don’t think a thread wallowing in commiseration is the most productive either.

    19. Raena*

      Fellow SAD sufferer here. My go to strategies are:
      -waking up an hour earlier and getting outside if possible.
      -eating a high protein breakfast and taking vitamin D supplements. I have low iron so I take that as well and it helps with energy.
      -use my trusty light box
      -take a walk at after lunch.
      -have snacks handy for energy slumps. Also drink lots of water.
      -plants!
      -lastly try to push through the periods where you get exhausted. When I first has SAD I would put my head back and literally fall asleep at my desk. (very bad obviously). This made me feel even more tired at the same time the next day. Try and keep your body and mind on a regular sleep schedule so you don’t start getting tired at the 3pm slump.

    20. Brrr*

      I finally bought a SAD lamp last fall and it made a world of difference. It was the first winter in quite a few years where I didn’t feel like I was walking through a thick dark cold haze all winter long. I found the book “Winter Blues” by Norman Rosenthal to be useful in helping me choose a light and figure out how long and when to use it.

      I want to point out that the optimal length of time under the light varies from person to person so 20 minutes a day may not be long enough for you. If after a week of using a therapy light you still don’t feel better, start increasing the time spent under it and/or change the time of day that you use it. Most people should use it as early as possible in the morning. Don’t give up on it after just a couple of uses!

      “Winter Blues” gives information on how to determine when you’re getting enough light. In the depths of December I needed a good hour under the light every morning. Since I was doing it before heading to work, that meant getting up at least an hour earlier than normal. I managed to consistently get myself out of bed before 6am all winter (even on weekends and holidays!) and I made sure to go to bed by 10pm so I wasn’t short-changing myself on sleep. I am NOT a morning person so this in itself speaks volumes about how effective and motivating I found the therapy light.

      Finally, you might want to check for used lamps as I think it’s not uncommon for people to buy one on recommendation from someone, and then just never use it (or use it a couple of times and decide it’s not for them). I bought mine new for about $240 but have seen like-new second-hand ones listed for less than $100.

  14. Marie the Chef*

    My boss laid me off and is now telling people I hate her. I told her to please stop, and now she wants to talk. How much do I need to continue this conversation?

    Back story:
    I was recently laid off from my position. No severance (though they asked me to work two more months, one of them part-time), and they ended my insurance. I’m disappointed with how this had all gone down, but frankly not surprised given everything else I’ve seen happen here (tiny, poorly managed nonprofit).

    My last day is next week, and I’ve just heard from two people that my boss (our executive director) is telling them I “hate her” because she laid me off. Honestly, I couldn’t care less about her. I’ve been very professional during this entire period – perhaps not super into chit-chat and a bit cooler than I would otherwise be, but I get my work done, am kind and helpful to my colleagues, and really just want to be out.

    After the first person told me she said this, I was going to let it go, but when I heard it again, I texted my boss to say please stop telling people I hate her, that it makes me sound unprofessional and is damaging my reputation when I have been nothing but professional. She texted me back denying she ever said this and now wants to talk (we’re mostly remote, though I do have a meeting with her next week).

    This is not the first time she’s made assumptions about how I feel, and I’ve told her multiple times that I’m not angry/upset/whatever emotion she thinks I’m having (my theory is she wants someone to make her feel better about laying me off and I’m not interested in being her therapist or alleviating her guilt).

    Did I do a stupid thing to call her out on this, and must I now continue this conversation? I’m not really interested in debating whether or not she’s said these things (I know she has), my feelings, or turning this into all about her and how she feels guilty. Or do I just need to be the grown up and get on the phone with her?

    1. neverjaunty*

      Being the grownup here means disengaging. You don’t need to follow up, you don’t need to talk to her.

      Also, what is up with the people passing on gossip about what your ex-boss is saying? Why did they tell you this?

    2. Detective Amy Santiago*

      I think you did the right thing by calling it out. I’m not sure what she hopes to accomplish with a conversation, but I’d say it’s probably in your best interest to go ahead and talk to her, just keep it brief and factual.

      Something like “Karen, I’m not interested in debating the veracity of the information I heard. If it’s not true, then you can disregard my request. I wanted to make sure I made it clear to you that I do not harbor any ill will towards you because of the layoff though.”

    3. Psyche*

      It is probably best to have a conversation with her at this point. The only way to avoid a conversation was to not call her out. It doesn’t have to be a long conversation. Pretend to believe her when she tells you that she didn’t say that and emphasize that this is obviously a tough situation for you but that you are not taking it personally (regardless of whether that is true). Don’t get drawn into a debate

      1. Cat Fan*

        The only way not to get drawn in is to not have the discussion. Maria the Chef had a right to ask her to stop and really does not owe it to her to make her feel better about it.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Pretend to believe her: Yes, this!
        You have made your point if she is back pedalling here, which it sounds like she is. All that needs to be said is a couple people told you this and somehow they are getting this impression from her, so she should be aware. The beauty of this approach is it’s irrelevant if she said it or not. All that matters is that people have this impression and you are concerned because it’s not true.

        I cannot tell you how many times I have used this technique. I’d bet my last chocolate donut that she is saying this about you. However, your willingness to walk right into that conversation with her is scaring the heck out of her and you have made your point already.

        Sometimes we can only know how effective we are by measuring how much push back we get. You won this one.

    4. LilySparrow*

      I’d respond, “I’m glad to hear that! Would you please help squash this rumor, as I am concerned that it could interfere with my future job prospects if people believe it.”

      I’ve had to deal with a lot of passive-aggresive liars, unfortunately. The most constructive tactic I’ve found is to ignore the game and be very clear that you expect them to act ethically and responsibly. You allow them their “cover story”, but don’t let them off the hook.

      2. LilySparrow*

        The follow-up to that is that you stay silent during the prepared speech about her feelings, and just wait for her to run out of steam. Know what concrete outcome/action steps you want, and when she’s done talking you just say something positive like “thanks” or “I appreciate that” and ask for the thing you want, like a letter of recommendation.

        Better yet, write the letter yourself before the conversation, and ask her to sign it right then and there.

        At no point are you obligated to reassure her, and don’t argue. Let the tension build up so when you present the very reasonable ask, it will be a relief to her.

      4. Marie the Chef*

        I actually kept your comment open on my computer while I called her just now. I said I’m glad to hear you say these things aren’t true, but since I’ve heard it from multiple people at this point, if she could help squash this rumor, I’d appreciate it. She said she’s only said good things about me, that the only thing she’s said is that it’s a sensitive situation, she’s only trying to help me land in a good place, she knows I don’t hate her, and whoever said this is just blowing whatever she said out of proportion. I said that’s great, I appreciate it, ok, bye.

        To the question of whether the people who told me this are just shit-stirring, they both used the same language without knowing what the other person said. Knowing how my boss talks, I think it’s a pretty safe bet she did say these things.

        Thanks all for the advice!

    6. MissDisplaced*

      Is it possible the two people who told you this were over-embellishing?
      Is it possible the boss made something more like a offhand comment and they “decided” to inform you it was directed at you? If so, I don’t know what their purpose would’ve been by doing that.

      But yeah, I think you were right to address/call it out. But I would not make this a huge argument either however. Continue to stress that you are remaining professional, and want to leave on good terms and you don’t “hate” anyone and understand it’s just a business decision. Some of the others have good scripts for follow up as well.

      I’m sorry this happened. I hope you find a better job and boss.

  15. Jenna Maroney*

    My manager is refusing to do anything about incompetent new hires because she doesn’t want to fire anyone when our contract is about to (not) be renewed. Is there anything at all I can do to get her to see more reasonably?

    1. Psyche*

      How soon will she hear about whether or not the contract is renewed? If it is only one or two weeks it might be worth just waiting it out unless they are causing a lot of problems and not just being unproductive. If possible, silo them away from important work in the meantime to limit their impact.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        They lobbied for it back at the beginning of October, they should be finding out any week now. And it’s our busy season, we can’t afford to have three duds on the team (not to mention how badly it’s affecting morale).

    2. Jenna Maroney*

      Just found out I’m going to get the aggressively rude and overly inquisitive one all of next week. Kill me.

    3. LKW*

      It’s very good to demonstrate your inability to manage people when trying to get a new contract. /s

    4. Kathenus*

      One thing you can do is to not cover for or pick up the slack for the new hires. Do your job, well, but don’t do theirs or fix their mistakes – kick it up to your manager if they don’t do the work or don’t do it well. If there’s a consequence for keeping poor performers that impacts her, she has more of an incentive to do something.

  16. Karen from Finance*

    I have been waiting for this post.

    I work in finance in a small company. My boss was fired yesterday. He was the overall administrative lead/coordinator. There’s going to be a CFO coming before New Year, but they will not be as involved as my boss was. I was explicitly told I am now a one-woman-department.

    I have 3 years experience in my area which is finance. I have always been complimented on being driven, creative, and smart. I am also aware I lack experience and self-confidence. I’m nervous.

    Tips?

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Make a list of everything your boss was responsible for that directly connected to your responsibilities and ask how they are going to be handled under the new management structure.

    2. Tara S.*

      Write down everything! Have other people give things to you in writing, so you can look things up later. You’ll get a lot of info and it might be hard to hold in your head. Ask for help where you can. Also, be kind to yourself when you make mistakes. It’s going to happen, but it’s probably not going to be the end of the world. Remind yourself that you are still learning (even if you are using the same skills as before, it’s different having to manage a whole department by yourself). Best of luck!

    3. ExcelJedi*

      Plan out your professional development goals for 2019 now. Even if it’s one or two specific webinars or events, and to read 2 TBD books on whatever you find out you need to improve.

      You may be in a place where you always feel a little overwhelmed and like you can’t take the time for your own development but having a solid plan and sticking to it will help you learn to manage new responsibilities.

      1. Auntie Social*

        And remember you wouldn’t be a one-woman department if they thought you were a mess and not up to the job. In my eyes it was a vote of confidence.

        1. LKW*

          Don’t be too sure. I don’t want to wreck your confidence KfF but watch your back. Someone may be putting some chess moves in place to take over your department or responsibilities. Keep an ear to the ground if possible.

          1. ThankYouRoman*

            I’m glad I’m not the only cynic right now.

            It pings bells of “why why why” with a sudden firing and downsize. Then just tossing a department to a junior employee.

              1. Marthooh*

                Ooh. If that’s what’s going on, be careful! Document everything you do, everything you are asked to do, every piece of information you’re given. If someone insists on in-person or phone contact, send a recap email the same day: “To confirm our earlier conversation…” blah blah blah, repeat what was said.

                If they try to force you out, you’ll at least get better terms if you can prove your competence.

    4. ThankYouRoman*

      You want to compile questions for the CFO and ask to form an action plan with them.

      They will need to know what you’ve been doing and what you know your boss had been doing that you’d need to pick up.

      I don’t know what you’re doing now or the size of the small business but I’ve taken on controller positions without the title and with only my street smarts to guide me. 3 years is a good deal of experience. Is there something you’re particularly concerned about? Calling the shots without a person to authorize? Or learning more? The presumed responsibility increase?

      Do you know and trust the executives? Get close to them and try to know if they need their hands held or if they’ve got a good handle on the business.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        > I don’t know what you’re doing
        Forecasting, budgeting, reporting, analysis, showing business results to the executives. Lots of ad hoc reporting and presenting. Business advisory. Annoying people from accounting a lot. Being the “you forgot to file your paperwork last night” from Monsters, Inc.

        >Is there something you’re particularly concerned about? Calling the shots without a person to authorize? Or learning more? The presumed responsibility increase?

        1. FormerBoss would say “yes” to 95% of what I proposed, but the responsability of the decision was never ultimately mine. So yes, the responsibility increase and the calling the shots.
        2. I am not personally an accountant, I’m an economist who stumbled into financial analysis via business analysis. This is not necessarily a requisite, but I’m aware without my more experienced boss I’ll need to read up a lot and fast, to make sure I don’t get any accounting concepts wrong, as there’s a big overlap.
        3. FormerBoss and I agreed on vision. He was person I personally ever worked with. And he disagreed with the Directors a lot, and aside from the fact that I think he was bad at picking his battles and office politics, I think having one too many disagreements is what got him fired. I will have to tread very lightly else I have the same fate.

        >Do you know and trust the executives? Get close to them and try to know if they need their hands held or if they’ve got a good handle on the business.
        I talk to one of the 4 executives daily. I don’t really trust him (he took 100% responsability for firing FormerBoss and maybe eventually I’ll stop holding it against him). I’ll still need to get close to him. I’m not certain of how to gauge how he prefers to be treated or if I should ask, point blank, how involved he wants to be.

        1. ThankYouRoman*

          I’m an Accidental Accountant, so I understand the preliminary fears. The CFO should be a replacement to accounting practices issues that may come up. You’re not a CPA and they’re insane if they aren’t relying on one in the end. No single person can screw up that massively.

          The differences between your old boss and the firing executive makes sense. That’s a decent reason to be let go and honestly if you can’t get on the same page as the guy in ultimate charge, it may not be ideal for you long term!

          I’m less cynical having this info. I think there was probably a lot of overlap in duties and with a 95% approval rating, you’re right on track to not need that safety net in place.

          This is a daunting event tossed at you but it may give you a huge boost into a higher position.

          Don’t fool yourself into thinking most of all of what you need to do is already programmed into the set up. A ton of it is reverse engineering the process to see where the last end result came from.

          Once you’re exercised your shot calling muscles and gotten to know the new CFO, it’ll be less like you’re in front of a firing squad.

    5. Coffee Owl*

      That sounds like a compliment on a job well done to me! Speaking as an accountant myself, here’s what I would do:

      – have a sit-down (like – next week) with whoever your current direct manager is and make sure you have a good, solid, clear idea of what is and is not your responsibility, especially if you are taking over any new tasks from FiredBoss. Also talk about what is or is not a priority between now and the arrival of New CFO so New CFO does not walk into a fire that immediately needs putting out.

      – if you have the ability and bandwidth, spend some time thinking strategically about your position/department’s tasks, processes, and reports. Is there anything that has been really bugging you about what or how you do something? This is a great opportunity to document, document, document and see if there are things that can be changed to be more effective or efficient

      – plan to have a high-level, direction of the department meeting with the new CFO when she arrives to talk about what her vision and plans for your department are and what involvement or reports she does or doesn’t want to see. This would also be a good time to talk about those changes you have been thinking about on a high level. Clarify your level of autonomy – are you REALLY in charge of your department and can make needed changes without guidance, and if not, what does getting that done look like to New CFO?

      – looking at your work, is there additional outside training or education that you could really benefit from, i.e. conferences, classes, or seminars? Do some poking around and prepare the groundwork to propose that for yourself. It is in the company’s best interest to make sure you are as equipped as you can be, and that is especially true if you do or will have responsibilities towards outside agents (hi, auditors and the IRS!).

      – remember that imposter syndrome is a thing! It’s okay to be nervous, but even if you don’t have a huge amount of experience overall, you have three years’ experience in this company specifically. That is not nothing. You will be an asset to New CFO for that reason.

      You so got this. You’re gonna rock it.

    6. Karen from Finance*

      Thank you all for your responses. The ones that I didn’t individually respond is because I’m taking them to heart.

      Honestly I feel like I just had my training wheels taken away too soon. I’m meeting one of the directors now (actually waiting for him atm). I plan to ask him what he had in mind for the restructuring, show him the things I’m currently working on that he needs to see, and hold off the rest of the points that need deeper consideration until the dust settles.

  17. Seifer*

    I posted about layoffs last week and I just wanted to say thanks to everyone that commented. We lost eight people total but tbh most of them were those that weren’t really… pulling their weight. I know that sounds horrible but it was mostly people that would come to work and chat all day and then complain about how busy they were. With the exception of one woman that was so good at her job, her boss felt threatened by her and therefore laid her off.

    But everything is okay! For now. We’re trying to move on. Thanks again! It really meant a lot.

    1. ThankYouRoman*

      That’s the norm for layoffs, it’s good that your company seems to focus on cutting dead weight first.

      I would be cautious to assume the one who you think of as good at her job but was a threat is actually the truth. You often can look good from outside sources but actually skate on your job in ways coworkers don’t see. I’ve had to fire and layoff “good” employees before. They’re good on the surface but managing them was a new story and behind closed doors.

    2. Jen RO*

      It doesn’t sound horrible, I think it’s a sign of a well-managed company. The one time a person on my team got laid off it was a huge burden off our shoulders – he was lazy, lied about getting his work done and yelled at us in meetings. The mood in the team improved the day he left.

    3. Ann Furthermore*

      My company was recently acquired by a very large software company. The announcement came in September, and the deal was finalized last week. On Monday, everyone will finally find out what’s happening with their jobs one way or another. Some people will be offered permanent positions, others will be presented with “transitional” opportunities — stay for x amount of time and then get some amount of severance and/or a retention bonus — and there will be a small group who is laid off right away.

      This has been so unbelievably stressful. I’ve only been with this company for about 6 months, and I really like it and don’t want to go anywhere. I was just starting to feel like I had settled in and was getting a good handle on everything. It’s been making everyone paranoid and irrational. I have no idea what will happen with my job. I don’t think I’ll be laid off immediately, but beyond that, I just don’t know. My boss did ask me a few weeks ago to please not go anywhere because my particular skill set is very hard to find, so that’s encouraging, but he’s been acting a little secretive and squirrelly, like he’s been putting feelers out for jobs, so who knows? I’ve told him I’m open to anything except relocation.

      The closer we’ve gotten to Monday, the slower the time has seemed to go. I’ll be relieved when I finally know what’s in store for me, good news or bad. Ugh.

  18. Bee's Knees*

    This week in a Small Town Newsroom

    Wakeen fell asleep at his desk the other afternoon. It was pretty slow, and we were just sitting around talking when Violet and I heard this noise coming from his desk. We both turned and looked, and he had his chin to his chest, sawing logs. He did wake up after a few minutes, but dear heavens.

    Sadly, I don’t have an update for this. Most of my phone conversations are very short. I had one the other day that was 10 minutes long. He talked the entire time. I finally get him my email address, a feat unto itself, and he asks my name again. I have a very girl’s popular name. It is easy to spell. He pronounced it when he repeated it back to me without one syllable, which I don’t love, but is how a lot of older people say it. I don’t love it, but ok. He then tells me it’s unusual for a lady to have that name, and he doesn’t know anyone with that name. I am unsure what he heard that sounds like my name, and very much is not.

    Everyone at the office is sick. As soon as someone leaves for the day, I descend with the Lysol. A lady in advertising saw me carrying it, and told me her husband had the flu. I did not give in to my first instinct of spraying her with the Lysol.

    Yesterday, Boss was out, so I was in charge of putting together the front. It was stressful, but I was doing ok until about ten minutes before deadline. That’s when we found out advertising hadn’t put in the right pages, and we had to change all the ads. That wasn’t fun.

    Some of the boys, though, have no idea how close they came to death. Farquad wants to be in charge, but isn’t willing to do any of the work. Fergus came and stood right behind me, while chewing his yogurt. I cannot stand to hear people chew, and he was right behind me. He was also talking to Violet about robots for… ahem, adult entertainment. I almost turned around, killed him, and went right back to work.

    Wakeen, however, was the worst. I was asking him where the pictures I needed were. He says he doesn’t know how to get there from his desktop. I told him to click on the file icon. Nope. I said the file button, which was a mistake, because he started looking at his keyboard. I finally gave up and went and glowered over his shoulder until he found it. He was then shocked that I didn’t have enough room for more than one photo.

    1. kittymommy*

      Honest to god, this update is the favorite part of Friday’s. I want a tv show of this. I want to visit this office and witness this in person. If I ever here of someone losing it a a local newspaper one day, I will totally come and support your defense. “But your honor, you don’t understand!! Fergus and Wakkeen……. they’re just the worst co-workers ever!!”

    2. Free now (and forever)*

      Chewing his yogurt? How is this even a thing? Although, truthfully, I chew my yogurt because I add slivered almonds, frozen cherries, and unsweetened coconut. Of course, you could say that I chew everything but the yogurt. But othwise, how is this possible?

      1. CDM*

        some people are more sensitive to food textures than others. I was trying to teach my teen to swallow tic-tacs as a precursor to swallowing pills, and she simply cannot do it. Putting it in applesauce just leads to chewing the applesauce and pill or substitute. I complained about her chewing applesauce and she retorted with “at least I’m not like who has to chew her water before swallowing!”

        My flabber is officially gasted. People exist who chew water.

        2. CarolineG*

          I have nothing to add except to disclose that I fully intend to steal and use “My flabber is officially gasted”.

          But, for some reason; maybe because it sounds like something he’d say………..in my head I read it in the voice of Eugene from The Walking Dead.

        3. Autumnheart*

          I can relate to the pill-swallowing issues. It took me until I was 20 to be able to swallow any pills, and even BC pills would trigger my gag reflex (and they’re half the size of a Tic-Tac). Tell her to try it with milk or OJ, and if the pill is solid, tip her head back, and if it’s a liqui-gel or capsule, tip her head forward. If she drinks a smoothie or protein shake in the morning, those work well too. (A morning smoothie is a great pill/breakfast delivery system.) And there’s no shame in buying the gummi version if it’s available.

          Now I have to take about a dozen pills a day, and those are the tricks that get me through it. But I also just tossed a bottle of vitamins that were these giant round non-coated pucks of death, because ain’t nobody got time for that.

        4. tangerineRose*

          I had a hard time swallowing pills too until I found that if I start with a piece of cheese, start chewing that, and then throw the pills in when I’m about ready to swallow pieces of the cheese, it works.

      2. What's with Today, today?*

        Yeah, my best friend always gets on to me for not adequately chewing mashed potatoes b/c “Digestion starts in the mouth!” All the time.

      3. Not So NewReader*

        I chew the strawberries in my yogurt. I get to spend long time with the good flavor if I chew them. But I am not noisy about it.

    3. What's with Today, today?*

      Our radio station has two sales guys in their 70s+(One is in actually in his 80s, but he’s not the napper). One naps on the bosses couch when he’s out of town. He naps at his own desk when the boss is in the building. This is very much a daily thing.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Our proofer who was in his eighties, and now sadly retired, would fall asleep at his desk all the time. Just a light snooze. No snoring. I always felt bad for waking him up.

    4. SJ*

      As a lab tech, I can certainly supply tips and techniques on how to hide a body (should you ever need it)! Love your updates!

    5. I Love Thrawn*

      I admire your restraint in not spraying that woman with Lysol, though I do understand the impulse. And I love reading your weekly updates.

    6. Emily S.*

      Love your updates, thanks for this!

      Honestly, I feel like slapping both Fergus and Wakeen. And I feel you on the germs going around. I’ve had a nasty cold/cough all week (viral! lovely!) and have been working, since I’m out of PTO (which is grouped to include sick time). Luckily it’s starting to get better, but I do wipe down all my area surfaces with Lysol wipes regularly.

    7. Nancie*

      I did not give in to my first instinct of spraying her with the Lysol.

      I love this line.

      Next time, maybe you could spray a circle of Lysol around her. Kind of like you’d make a circle of salt against evil spirits.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I’ve been doing that to people’s desks. Just a wall of it, after I’ve sprayed everything they might have touched. Including the handle of Fergus’s coffee cup.

  19. Nervous Accountant*

    It’s been a rough week. A lot of stupid crap both @ work and at home (will post about the home stuff tomorrow).

    Last week my boss was saying such nice glowing things. How I handled the Kevin situation really well, how I grew so much this year, and I’m doing so great in my role. I felt great and bam this week I get crapped on. The seed is planted now.

    Anyway, update on Kevin. Others are pointing out how he gets worked up so quickly. Majority of them don’t let it ruffle them. They don’t take it personally, they see it as just a personality quirk or whatever. My mgr got pissed. not at me, but at him, and having this kind of crappy atittude. I’ve been at work for an hour and I counted 10 times going off. Any feedback I have to give him now is done through email/writing with him CC’d which he 100% ignores. My mgr talked to him yesterday and I wish I’d been a part of that meeting. (I was supposed to be, but I missed his signal, and got busy with something else urgent that came up any way) but he told me all about how that talk happened. The phone thing hasn’t changed, so let’s see if anything else does. I’m skeptical, but we’re doing our part.

  20. A Nonny Nonny*

    Our office holiday party is on a weekend evening at a country club and the invitation specifically says cocktail attire. A coworker has mentioned nice slacks and a fancy shirt would be okay (we are both female). It’s been a long time since I’ve needed cocktail attire. Is she right or should I get a dress?

    1. Four lights*

      I would either check with the person coordinating, or with other women in the office. I should think you could wear slacks.

    2. SophiaB*

      Maybe ask around a little more widely? I tend to go by what other people are planning to wear more than the stated dress code – people have such varied ideas of what ‘business casual’, for example, actually means.

      Also, consider whether you and your co-worker have similar tastes. I struggle ever to look smart in jeans, so tend to opt for dresses to be safe, but I have plenty of friends who look classy in jeans and a simple shirt.

    3. Tara S.*

      Pants are always an option, no matter how fancy an event. Dresses are appropriate for a cocktail event if you want to wear one, but nice pants and a blouse will also work.

    4. DivineMissL*

      Well, I am picturing a pair of satin/velvet slacks and a spangly, holiday-ish shirt, with glittery earrings, cute shoes, hair fixed, etc. and you could get away with it. Most women’s holiday wear I see seems to be bare arms and legs, and I would be more comfortable/warm in slacks, too. You MIGHT be able to do nice wool dress pants if the top half is holiday-ish and sparkly. You don’t want to look like you wandered in from work in a plain pair of pants and shirt, but you can probably find something comfortable and appropriate that doesn’t require you going out to buy a cocktail dress.

    5. Shark Whisperer*

      This is hard because there’s such variations in slacks and shirts, but in general, yes, slack on women can be cocktail attire. My grandmother is a blue-blood English lady and I have attending more than one country club function with her. Her go-to holiday time outfit is black slacks and a cream lace blouse. If she will deign to wear slacks to a cocktail party, anyone can.

    6. Holly*

      It depends – do you enjoy wearing dresses? If so, a dress would be great. If you don’t, pants are fine but you really have to dress it up with a more fancy shirt as you say, and maybe some statement jewelry (I don’t want to assume how you dress, just giving my general opinion on what would elevate a pair of pants). You could also wear a more festive pantsuit.

    7. Can't Sit Still*

      It can also be helpful to check if the country club itself has a dress code. There are still places that won’t allow you in if you’re wearing jeans or denim, for example.

    10. Happy Hedgehog*

      Our big year-end event is often held at a country club/golf course with cocktail attire. A dress isn’t required but, I’d say 90% of the women in our office elect to wear one. Jeans are prohibited where we usually have ours but, other pants would be fine.

      If you opt for pants I’d suggest looking for a dressier version than regular work pants; something with a wider leg or some flow to the fabric would be nice. Definitely wear a nicer blouse, perhaps a sparkly or beaded one. Jewelry can definitely help dress up an outfit too.

      1. Anon From Here*

        Yeah, slinky-fabric pants and some kind of very impractical top. (I keep a black velvet V-neck shirt with stupid chiffon cuffs in my closet for just these occasions, which are infrequent enough that nobody remembers the shirt.) Dress your hair up in a style you don’t usually do, add some sparkly jewelry, and carry a handbag that won’t fit more than a piece of ID, enough dollars to get you in a taxi home, and some lipstick. Party time!

    11. The Grammarian*

      Swooshy, wide-legged pants (like culottes) in a nicer fabric and a nice sweater in a coordinating color with accents should qualify as cocktail attire.

    13. Lissa*

      I’ll riot if there’s ever an event that I need to wear a dress to just because I’m a lady! Dresses mandatory for everyone or nobody!

    14. Emily S.*

      I’d ask around. If I was really concerned, I’d wear a skirt and blouse, but if your colleague said slacks would be fine, it’s probably safe to take that at face value. I always figure I can dress things up with a nice scarf/wrap, and some jewelry.

    15. Dobermom*

      My office holiday party is also on a weekend evening at a country club with an invitation that specifically says cocktail attire. I’ve been at the company for several years, and, while most women opt for cocktail dresses, there definitely are women that wear nice slacks with fancy shirts.

    16. valentine*

      Don’t worry about it. Enough people will wear little black dresses or bluejeans that your choices won’t stand out.

  21. New Job*

    I’m on the verge of getting a job offer. They’ve told me they’re headed that way, just waiting on a verbal offer and then an offer letter. At my current job I am on intermittent FMLA. I haven’t mentioned this to my new job and I’m not sure when/how to broach the topic. I don’t want them to pull the offer and I don’t want them to think its going to be a problem. I only need time out of the office occasionally. It’s more I need flexibility, which they already told me they offer.

    Would it be bad if I didn’t say anything for now and just held off until I felt I needed to file for it again? That seems like it could come back to haunt me. But I’m just not sure how to handle it with the job change.

    1. fposte*

      I think it’s okay not to mention it if you don’t want to and don’t need to. Flexibility also seems like something that could fall under an ADA accommodation if it’s not as available as you hoped but you haven’t been there long enough for FMLA.

      1. New Job*

        Oh! I forgot that I have to be employed for a year before I can get FMLA. That actually makes it a lot easier, I guess, since I have no real choice there.

        Follow-up question: how does one seek accommodations via ADA? Do you just say you need this accommodation? I have a chronic illness. I’m not sure exactly how that works.

        1. fposte*

          It’s not a fixed protocol. It can be as simple as saying “Hey, manager, I have an old wound from the Somme that acts up on rainy days; is it okay for me to leave early those days and work longer on others?” It can also be something that goes through HR and involves getting a note from your doctor that recommends your accommodation. Plan for the second, since that’s pretty common, but see how the culture goes and what your rapport is with your manager when you get there and go from there.

        2. Pinkie Pie*

          Talk to HR after the offer letter. Pick the things that are most essential. For me, you can’t read my handwriting due to dysgraphia. I need to type things and not handwrite them. Due to diabetes, it needs to be understood that I will test my sugar occasionally and need to use the bathroom more often.

          Talk to your doctor to identify what is an accommodation for your disability, get it in writing and give it to HR.

        3. Rose Tyler*

          Typically it starts with getting a doctor’s letter that specifically states what accommodations you need and how often/long you’re expected to need them. Then you enter into an interactive process with your employer where they either 1) agree to accommodate, 2) offer alternative suggestions that they feel still meet your needs, or 3) say that they feel the accommodations are unreasonable, at which point a lawyer-y can of worms opens up. :)

        4. New Job*

          Ok. This is all great advice. I will start with the letter from my doctor so I have it on hand and causally mention it to my new manager and go from there. I *think* he will be accommodating.

    2. kelly white*

      I would think if what you need is intermittent, and they have already said they are flexible, that you should just wait until you need it. If they really are flexible you may be able to handle it without any sort of explanation at all!

      Good luck at the new job!!

      1. New Job*

        Thank you. That’s what I was wondering. I didn’t want to come out looking bad by not mentioning it. I believe they will genuinely be flexible, but I suppose there’s no way to really know until I’m there working.

        Thanks for the well wishes. :)

    3. Nervous Nellie*

      Congrats on the new job!

      If I understand the law correctly, you might not be eligible for FMLA until you have worked at the new job for one year. Maybe an HR whiz here could confirm or correct? If it is the case, it sounds like it wouldn’t be a big deal anyway since the new job is already agreed to be flexible. You may just want to check how that flexible time out of the office needs to be tracked – as PTO, maybe? Or sick leave? I hope it’s just a minor admin issue for you.

      1. New Job*

        Thank you! And you are right. I completely forgot I had to be there for a year so it doesn’t matter right now. I’m still working on the details of PTO with them but I’ve emphasized to them that I’d like to be able to work from home at least one day a week and have the flexibility to shift my schedule an hour or two earlier or later at times and they were very receptive. I have tons of flexibility in my job now so they’re aware that’s important to me and seem willing to accommodate that.

        1. Nervous Nellie*

          Wow! That sounds like an awesome job and great colleagues & company culture. Super congrats to you, and Happy Friday! :)

          1. New Job*

            It does sound great. I feel lucky. They knew how flexible my job was now and actually offered some of these things up to me as a selling point of working there.

        2. A-nony-nony*

          Did you tell them why you needed flexibility? I’m interviewing for a job, and I have an autistic son who goes to therapy two afternoons a week, on the other side of town from said job, so I’ll need WFH flexibility those afternoons (I can obviously work later in those evenings to offset). Not sure whether I’d want to get into detail about my son if/when I get an offer or not.

          1. New Job*

            I did not tell them why. I didn’t want to bring being sick into the equation. But I asked what the schedule was like and wanted to get an idea of whether I could swing things around a bit. I work globally now so it doesn’t really matter if I start at 6 am and work with he EMEA team or start at 12 pm and sync up with the APJ team.

            New job is not global, so it doesn’t work quite like that. But I expressed wanting to have the flexibility to come in late or leave early if needed. One example I gave was because I have a kid, which I know some people think is a no-no during a job interview but I could tell it would be a non-issue. Mostly I just expressed it as a comfort issue, not wanting to stray too much from what I’m used to right now.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      You have no obligation to tell them that you need an ADA accommodation prior to accepting the offer. Once you start, just look up what their protocols are for requesting an accommodation or contact the person in HR and go through whatever their process is. As someone who has had both intermittent FMLA and an ADA accommodation which centered around flexibility that’s what I’ve done. I’ve also though just started the new job and waited it out a bit to see how flexible things are. At one job I had all the flexibility I needed so I didn’t bother going through all the HR processes, but then management changed and I lost that flexibility, so I went through the process so that it would be formal and enforced.

      1. New Job*

        It’s good to hear from someone who has dealt with this specifically. Thank you for the advice.

    5. ThankYouRoman*

      Since it sounds like they’re giving you flex-time and a WFH day, you may not need to take it to an ADA or eventual intermediate FLMA situation.

      I only suggest pulling FLMA out when they’re being disagreeable about your time off needs. Pulling the law cards out prior to having your hand pushed can be overkill going into a new job.

      1. New Job*

        Yeah, that’s definitely what I am hoping for. But I wasn’t sure if I should still raise it anyway. And I agree with you about it being overkill. I didn’t want to go there and look like I was going to be a problem employee.

        1. ThankYouRoman*

          It’s a natural thing to think about given your current situation plus the nerves of going into a new job. My original comment was more blunt than I meant for it to come across.

          Congratulations, btw. I’m the worst and forgot that as well.

  22. Not Maeby but Surely*

    I posted in last week’s open thread regarding being super nervous about asking a former boss (who’s now a bigwig at another company) for a reference. I finally bit the bullet this week and asked him, and he responded later the same day with an enthusiastic “of course!” AND he said a couple of things relating to how much I helped him (training, etc.) in his early years and basically gave me the confidence boost I needed. I’ve been feeling so demoralized in my job that I had been doubting whether I was actually a good employee/teapot examiner/what-have-you, so the kind words pretty much brought tears to my eyes.

    If you’ve been pondering a similar thing, take the leap! What have you got to lose?

    1. Mina*

      That is really great news. It’s really scary how much you can end up internalizing the impact of a demoralizing job! Hope this helped you doubt yourself less overall.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      When you work for a crappy company or boss who is demoralizing, bullying or gaslighting you, it’s very easy to start believing you are the worst employee in the world. So glad your former boss (now a bigwig) says otherwise!
      Take this! Get your mojo back! Go find yourself a better job!

    4. ThankYouRoman*

      I’m happy to hear you reached out to him and got a great response.

      I’ve had a toxic jerkwad drain my confidence and remembering that every other boss thinks I’m awesome really helped heal after that ordeal.

      I hope you get a new job that appreciates you soon.

  23. confused...*

    Wondering if anyone else has been in this situation.. I’m not very close to my manager (C-level) and she’s honestly not very close to anyone here.. sadly her husband is going through cancer treatment… this has caused some issues as while she should be on leave she keeps trying to work which isn’t working quite as well and is confusing everyone on her team and outside the group…

    but my real issue is… she now keeps talking about the situation and sharing with us in a very personal way about their situation… sending pictures from the hospital, sending updates to a website they are using to keep friends and family updated… and I honestly don’t know what to do.. I feel the need to chime in with others cause… she’s the boss and I don’t want to be the only one who doesn’t reply! I wish them well of course but I’m a private person and this feels very personal to me… and very odd.. not sure how to handle as much as one on one I try to take her cues when she’s around whether she wants to talk or wants to focus on work and express support when I can… she basically a stranger but I of course would want to see everything work out for them…

    I’m really uncomfortable… I’m waiting to hear on a work matter that I pinged her about and no reply… but did get a group text with a link to a website with a treatment update… a number of folks chimed in on the text but I didn’t know what to say so I didn’t say anything…

    anyone deal with something like this and have any suggestions?

    1. Tara S.*

      The best way to be supportive is to be understanding of her late replies. Try and figure out if there’s someone else you can ask your questions to (CCing her to keep her in the loop, where appropriate). Otherwise, I don’t think it’s required for you to write a personalized email or text. Give sympathy in person if she brings the treatment up, but other than that I think you’re ok. If you really feel like doing something, maybe circulate a support/sympathy card around the office to give to her.

    2. Celeste*

      Oh, that’s so sad. I honestly think someone needs to talk to her about how confusing it is for her to be available to work in theory, but not in reality. Clearly her heart’s not in it at work. There needs to be someone else who can answer questions if she isn’t able to get back to people.

      1. Rose Tyler*

        I would separate your two issues – that she posts frequent updates vs. you not getting answers from her that you need. About the first, you and she have different styles and that’s ok. I’d offer a periodic (like, once/month) generic email like “thinking of you and X and hoping all is well” but I would not feel pressured to respond to each update she sends.

        About the responsiveness, is she truly late with her replies (as in, taking days to respond to email or otherwise causing you problems) or just not as responsive as when she’s in the office full-time? I think it’s fine to ask her who you can go to when you need an urgent response, or if it’s appropriate, to close an email with “I’d recommend we do X because of Y. I know you’re out today so I’ll plan on moving forward with that plan by Friday unless I hear from you”. If she’s truly a black hole then someone really needs to talk to management about how the company can support her while still allowing work to get done.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Many serious illnesses now are a public event because in part our medical protocols are very demanding- go here for this test, go there for that doc, go over there for that med. So it feels like everyone in the world knows what is going on anyway. And the running around is exhausting. Once fatigued people can get looser tongues and really let out a lot of information.

      As someone who had a sick spouse, I can tell you first hand she does not notice your discomfort nor your lack of comments. There is just too much going on to keep track of such things. So many people do come forward that the ones who do not are not noticed.

      Perhaps you can ask if someone can fill in for her if anyone has questions, so not everyone is bugging her. This might actually be a kind act perhaps no one else has thought to appoint a fill-in for her when she is not there.

      If you really feel you must post, then look at what others are saying and say something similar. Keep it short, briefness makes it easier on you and your message will be fine.

      FWIW, I don’t always know what to say either. I found that many people don’t. I am not sure time makes it easier, I think we just get used to feeling tongue tied during times of illness.

    4. confused...*

      Thank you folks for your comments and Not So New Reader I hope all is well with your spouse now.

      The issue here is she is not allowing others to cover for her… She’s afraid of losing her job and it drives a lot of her decisions… When people have covered when she could not do it at all she felt guilty but now that she is partially back she keeps trying to make the statement “I’m back now” in every way. Even talking on optional assignments that become complicated due to her husbands treatment schedule as he is seeking treatment at an out of state hospital.

      Because she is a senior exec there isn’t much others are empowered to do and were they to offer she likely would not accept but it’s a total chit show. She drives deadlines that she isn’t following up on and I’m not the only one who’s frustrated and confused. She missed a client call last week that she wasn’t required on, but she made a point to say she’d introduce the presenter to have me scrambling, calling and texting and finally shrugging my shoulders in front of her boss and others cause she was MIA.. later apologizing to the clients. Late that evening I got a text that it had been a bad day… And I’m frantically trying to ask about the following day’s client call so we don’t have more confusion.

      As her asst I’m doing my best to support her, even cover for her but… I guess I’m angry she is making this so much worse. We don’t have a close relationship and never have so it’s always been a challenge, working for her. I understand she’s in a tough situation, I lost both my parents to cancer so I get it… but… Working for her on her best day, before this crisis was already bad… Now… I don’t know what to say or do anymore. And her second in command is struggling too as other senior execs go to him when our manager may not be around but what can he do, he may then deal with attitude from our boss if they would have made different decisions or our boss feels out of the loop. I feel for 2nd, he’s on egg shells either way.

      Anyway, thank you, no easy answers of course. I just wish she would stop making things worse… It’s becoming unbearable.

  24. Sue*

    I have started a new position almost 2 months ago in an admin support role (and it’s great!)
    The company is experiencing rapid growth and I am beginning to help fill a gap with IT support and assistance. I have no formal IT training and would love to become more knowledgeable so I can be successful and an asset to the company. I have been watching and reading many tutorials I find online, but am interested in perhaps earning an official certification, and/or taking courses. I have been trying to search and learn about available certifications, specifically with Windows 10 troubleshooting and support and Sharepoint. Would any of you wonderful readers be able to discuss if a MCSA certification is really worth the investment for my company and/or any other resources I should look into so I can present ideas to my supervisor. This is never an area I gave much thought to before now and would greatly appreciate some input. Thank you!!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve been in a similar situation, though it was less to do with rapid growth and more to do with my own interest in IT, but I have no related degrees and no certifications. I’m sure there will be others who disagree, but I think certifications are virtually meaningless in terms of practical improvement of your skills and knowledge.

      In addition to you watching and reading tutorials, I would highly recommend joining an online forum, slack, and/or mailing list related to Windows administration.

      I’ve both given help in and gotten help from people at other companies/orgs/schools, and that has been immensely helpful to me in terms of evaluating solutions, implementing best practices, and just plain learning the day-to-day stuff.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      So I would start with some of the free training you can find online first, especially since you’re so new to the role and I am guessing you would want to ask the company to pay for the certification. They may be planning on hiring more people in that area and not interested in developing someone so new for something outside of their original plans for them and things like that since you don’t have background in that area. (I could be wildly wrong, but if you’re super interested in it then ask your boss if they would support you in spending some time learning those things.) If you’re finding the free tutorials and things helpful, as well as you’re enjoying it and would really like to continue in that area, AND you’re showing growth in that area that you can point your boss to as evidence that the investment would be worth it, then yes, an MCSA certification can definitely be worth the investment.

      1. Adaline B.*

        Agree. It also might be worth the money to start with the prep book for the MCSA exams you’re planning on taking. At the very least, they’re usually super-informative and some even have practice exercises.

        I almost have my MCSA in SQL Server and I’ve found those exams to be quite a bit more rigorous than other certification exams I’ve taken. Not sure if that’s SQL directly or just the Microsoft way, but there’s my $0.02 :)

    3. Admin of Sys*

      Windows system administrator for 15+ years – MCSA books are useful, but the actual certifications are still generally considered a ‘thing you do to get a job’ not a ‘thing you to do learn a skill’, at least in all the places I’ve worked. And a whole lot of the certification classes will teach the test, not the system.
      I would check to see if there are local groups / meetups / conferences etc for your specific tech interest, both for networking purposes and to see what the good local training options are.

    4. A Non E. Mouse*

      I’m a little biased, in that all my formal IT training came *after* I’d been in IT a decade, BUT: I agree with Admin of Sys. Certifications tend to be things you do to GET a job, rather than to DO a job.

      That said, I would do free training courses first, and then approach your boss with “I’ve done X training on my own, and have helped the business in these specific ways the last 6 months. I talked with the head of IT and these three courses (links, descriptions and cost) are ones that she feels will help the company the most. I’d like to take these courses with an eye towards helping in IT more, what do you think?” and then see where you get.

      I have never paid for a course out of pocket at any company, although I have had to front some exam fees and then be reimbursed. I would actually ask the person in charge of IT what they feel would be most beneficial – they might have a way better idea of what’s to come, and can point you in a forward-looking direction for training.

      {Also, a dirty little secret: the vast majority of the time, I’m Googling for the answer. The field is so vast you simply cannot known everything, but you *can* know how to FIND everything. That skill (knowing where to find things) is very, very valuable in IT.}

    5. Gumby*

      Is there anyone at the company that you can ask? They would know what they’d find most useful at any given time. Particularly as you are framing it in terms of being helpful to the company rather than hoping to move on to greener pastures. Plus! they might then pay for whatever training. It’s not a slam dunk since a lot of tuition reimbursement programs require it to be related to your job or a planned job move, but it’s worth finding out.

  25. Environmental Compliance*

    My office is across the room from the Big Printer/Copier. This morning I got to listen to a group of people all trying to decide what the “1–>2, 2–>1” etc buttons meant. After about 15 minutes of me trying not to laugh I went out there and helped. Apparently the meaning of the buttons was a revelation, as was the button where you can ask the printer to staple the packet for you.

    In unrelated news, we got a new management company for the facility, so we were all let go and hired within about 30 minutes time. The new management company has way better benefits, a much better HR department, and way more employee resources, so I’m pretty excited about it. They even have their own EHS resource team! I’ve already talked to the new operations coordinator about 4x more in the space of a month than the old management company’s operations coordinator.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Thanks! I’m liking the new people so far, and I’ll really be liking the better benefits in about a week.

    2. kittymommy*

      When I moved over to this job I was a little astonished my copier had a hole punch option. I went to go do it and turns out that since I don’t actually “need” to hole punch anything (and I don’t TBH), we didn’t spring for the extra option.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        A hole punch actually would be pretty awesome! I’m a little jealous….I’ve never had a job where the printer even had that option. It’s always been limited to stapling.

      1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        I’m assuming (there’s that word) that it’s for copying 1-sided documents to 2-sided copies, or copying 2-sided documents to 1-sided copies.

      3. Cristina in England*

        Pretty sure the first is “single sided originals to double sided copies” and vice versa for the second.

  26. Environmental Compliance*

    Oh, also – anyone have any good resources for VBA macro help? I’m trying to make a macro in Excel to send out an email with an attachment, and it’s not cooperating. I get the email prompts, but no attachments. No errors either. I tried MrExcel and Reddit, and nothing I can find online is helping.

    2. Nervous Nellie*

      Hiya! I posted a link to a Stackoverflow dot com help page, but with the link it has probably gone to moderation. If Alison clears it it should pop up here soon.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Thank you!!! I’ll try it out. Basically, if column H says Yes, I want the macro to send out emails to different people with different attachments, and I can get the emails but no attachments. The no errors part is flummoxing me. The emails are sent out probably 20 or more a day just for that type of attachment, which right now is just a lot of busy work dragging and typing, so I’m trying to make the process easier. Right now the process is more frustrating because the macro is smarter than me, lol.

        1. Admin of Sys*

          Can you send the spreadsheet manually to outlook, just not from the macro? It’s quite common for organizations to block macro enabled spreadsheets from being sent through mail, due to the likelihood of them containing viruses.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            What I’m sending is actually a PDF, but the emails & file location are all in the Excel spreadsheet.

    3. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

      Ron de Bruin has great Excel automation and on automating attachments from Excel. I’ve put the link in my username.

      You can also ask on the Reddit Excel forum which is extremely helpful. Post your VBA code and someone might be able to fix it.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        I tried the de Bruin one…and I get even more errors. It does not like me for some reason. So far I also haven’t gotten a lot of help from Reddit. :(

        1. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

          What version of Windows (or MacOS), Outlook and Excel are you using? (some code isn’t compatible with different versions of Windows/Outlook/Excel)

          What errors do you get?

          If you could copy/paste your code into pastebin (search for it, you can upload text for others to see) and link to it from here, I can take a look.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I have Office 2013, with Windows 7 Enterprise. All I get when I run it is the right emails popping up….but no attachments whatsoever. So I am assuming something is wrong with how I define my variable to get the file name from the cell, but since I don’t get an error, and it does it no matter what I do to define the variable…I’m stuck.

            I’ve pasted it here https://pastebin.com/zfm6AfGR and wish you many, many cookies for your help!!

            1. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

              I’ll have a look tomorrow, it’s now evening where I am, have a good one!

            2. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

              Hi! I got it working!

              The problem was with the line “getfile = Sheets(“Sheet1″).Range(rngOffset).Value”. The syntax was wrong. Because you had the line ‘On Error Resume Next’ , though, it just skipped to the next loop and didn’t show an error message.

              Replace that line with “getfile = rngOffset.Value” and it should (fingers crossed) work.

              Change .Display to .Send and it will send them all.

              I’ve dropped my new code into pastebin at : https://pastebin.com/wqjtCc9N

              Please let me know if it now works! It was interesting working on the problem.

              I’m not sure of how all the syntax of selecting ranges and setting a string to equal the contents of a cell works, but this might be useful: https://support.microsoft.com/en-gb/help/291308/how-to-select-cells-ranges-by-using-visual-basic-procedures-in-excel

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                Thank you so much for your help!!

                Now it tells me that the file name doesn’t exist, which is a step in a good direction rather than it not doing anything, lol. I’m thinking that’s a problem with the cell formatting, since if I type in what the path is with what getfile should be displaying, it works. *shrug*

  27. YRH*

    I started a new job in September and my office is having a baby shower for one of my co-workers later this month. What is typical how much to spend etiquette? The email invite said where she is registered and that she needs diapers and wipes. Although this is an office that seems very into showers, the email made it clear that gifting is optional. This co-worker sits by me and has the same position and has generally been quite helpful since I started. How would etiquette change for a co-worker I don’t work with as closely or know as well? Thanks!

    1. Tara S.*

      You can give as much or as little as you like. If you would like to give something small, a $10 grocery store gift card (or Target or somewhere she can buy diapers) would be great. If you want to give more, pick an item off her registry. But you don’t HAVE to do anything, other than probably signing the office card.

      1. Liane*

        If you decide to get her diapers (or baby clothes), get the larger sizes–say, Medium diapers, 3-6 month size clothing. Many babies are born too large for newborn sizes, or can only fit them for a few weeks. Not to mention, they tend to outgrow diapers *just*after you’ve bought a case.

    3. Rose Tyler*

      I would do $10 for someone I didn’t know well or $25 for someone I did. If that amount seems small, see if you can go in with others on a group gift. If it’s a bigger company and you truly don’t know the person (or if $ is tight) then feel free to skip.

    4. NewWorkingMama*

      My go-to gift for soon to be parents that I don’t know very well is those colorful nesting cups. Let me tell you they are about $5 and they are the greatest toy ever once they start holding things. Pick those up, add a nice car, and there ya go. I feel good because the toy is legit amazing and simple, but thoughtful.

    7. Jack Be Nimble*

      If you’re looking for more suggestions, you can’t go wrong with books! You can get board books/chewy books which are more baby-appropriate, but a copy of a picture book you loved as a kid is a thoughtful gift, especially if you write a lovely note about having enjoyed it as a kid and how you hope that the new baby will enjoy it someday, too!

    8. ThankYouRoman*

      Always give what feels comfortable to you.

      You’re never obligated to give gifts, no matter the money or how well you know someone.

      I would keep it similar regardless of your closeness. You don’t want to hurt feelings by giving June, your close work buddy, a big gift and giving Nancy from production a couple books you got from the clearance rack.

      It’s absolutely okay to give June “more” privately though. Just not a public shower.

  28. BeanCat*

    I’m learning the benefits of just being direct. I was raised to dance around issues which has led to me fighting to not end up passive aggressive like my mother.

    I was frustrated because a coworker is supposed to cover the desk and he…hasn’t. It started because I had to train him on the desk and he wasn’t ready for it. But now he is and I still wasn’t getting breaks. I was tired of it and decided I needed to just be direct.

    BeanCat: “Hey, what can we do to make it so you can cover the desk so I can take the breaks I need? You and I both get them and I’d like to be able to take mine now that you’re trained.”
    Him: “Oh, just send me a message whenever you’re ready.”

    I’m on my first break since :’)

    (this might be small but for someone who’s struggled to be direct all her life this is big for me!)

    3. Deloris Van Cartier*

      Congrats! As someone who struggles with that as well, I find every time I ask for something and someone responds in a positive manner, I feel a little more confident for the next time!

    4. female peter gibbons*

      ‘how to be assertive in any situation’ is a book that has changed my life, i would recommend it to anyone.

    5. Friday afternoon fever*

      Congratulations! I totally get building something up in your head and then once you do it, it actually wasn’t that bad.

      A bunch of people & I cover for someone’s breaks on a set schedule and frequently other people just do not actually cover. Like..???? Let him take his break!!! Just do it! It’s once a month!

  29. Michaela T*

    Wasn’t there a letter asking for ways to submit a cover letter if there isn’t a spot for it in the online application? I can’t find it – I’m normally fine skipping the cover letter, but this time around I really need for them to see one addressing my background and my last year of work.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      If there’s only one place to attach something, I combine the cover letter and resume into one document and submit that in the resume slot.

      You can avoid formatting issues by just combining them as pdfs. If you don’t have a version of adobe that lets you do that, there are free online tools that will do it for you – the one I’ve used is pdfmerge [dot] com.

    2. Beehoppy*

      Does the application allow you a spot to attach your resume? If so, just save the letter and resume as a single PDF file and attach that way.

      1. Michaela T*

        Thank you! I thought I had seen that suggestion previously but was worried that submitting both would look like I wasn’t following instructions or something. It does seem like the best way to do it!

  30. CDM*

    Happy Friday!

    We’re so fortunate to live in the US, where the federal government can compel you to serve on a jury for three months under penalty of law, and then not even pay you minimum wage for it. Where your employer legally can’t fire you or take away your benefits, but you can’t afford to pay for your health insurance or pay your bills with jury pay. (Hey, it will increase to $50/day after he’s served ten days! Woot!)
    I warned my 24 year old that he would get one chance to claim financial hardship and then he’d be stuck. But I expected he’d get a standard one-two week trial, or grand jury, which is 18 months, but only 2 days a month, so he’d still have income coming in. I in no way expected TWELVE WEEKS.
    And the courthouse requires business casual, like he can afford to go buy a new wardrobe to meet their standards.
    He can’t even get the time to talk to HR to find out exactly how bad this will be until Monday and then only because the court is closed for Veterans Day. At least that’s one more day of pay for him.

    This is so stressful not knowing how many thousands this is going to cost us to keep him out of serious financial trouble. His company will pay him for 3 or 5 days, he’s got another three of vacation, then it’s a financial cliff.

      1. CDM*

        Knowing him, he either froze or didn’t think all the way through the implications of twelve weeks at jury pay instead of his wages. And it’s too late now that he’s seated, barring some documentable disaster striking him.

        I tried to prep him. I would have worked a lot harder to prep him if I thought this would happen. The overwhelming odds were that any jury he was put on would have meant maybe two weeks without pay, or two days per month (grand jury). Not twelve weeks

    2. ArtK*

      Interesting. The Superior Court in Los Angeles asks you to tell them how many days your company will pay and they assign you priority in the pools. You can also tell the judge during voir dire and they will often dismiss you from the jury. How did he end up on a 12-week trial without someone asking those questions?

      BTW, the LA courts have records of what companies will allow, so lying on the form is a bad idea.

      1. CDM*

        My experience in federal court was that the judge asked once who had a significant hardship, and excused maybe five people. Then the first 21 seated people in the room were put on the grand jury meeting two days a month for 18 months. A chorus of “but – hardship” arose, and the judge said “too late.”

        Put my son in a similar spot, and he’s now on a jury for twelve weeks and flat broke.

      2. OlympiasEpiriot*

        Is CDM in California? NY doesn’t get into that detail. You’re asked during voir dire if there’s any hardhsips that would interfere, but, that’s it.

    3. Rebecca*

      One of my coworkers has been hijacked into our state’s grand jury pool. She has a toddler, is married, works full time, and yet she has been compelled to sit through endless testimony for one week per month for 18 months straight. Fortunately, the company we work for pays us for our standard hourly rate while we’re on jury duty, and we have to hand over any measly pay from the court, so this could be so much worse. Yet another thing working people have to deal with. And it is not fair that the government is allowed to bankrupt a citizen for the “privilege” of serving on a jury. I looked up the rate set by my state: $9.00/day for the first 3 days, and then $25/day for every day after that, plus $.17/mileage rate. Imagine if your employer didn’t pay the worker’s regular salary, and this is all they received.

      As an aside, I would not want someone on my jury who was itching to get back to work. Just saying.

    4. Holly*

      At least in my state, you’re allowed to postpone jury duty, and when you postpone, you can specifically ask to be on the regular jury duty list and not grand jury – unless you’re saying this is a 12 week trial. That is incredibly rare. I can’t think of a trial that has gone on for 3 months… unless it’s something absolutely groundbreaking?

      1. CDM*

        There are plenty that go on that long. Some have gone on over a year. I haven’t seen anything mentioned in the city news recently though, so I can’t guess what this one could be.

        Google isn’t giving me good results for long jury trials, other than one in Manhattan civil court that lasted 72 days, over a 2008 crane collapse with two fatalities.

        And apparently it’s federal court jury selection this week for the El Chapo trial (boss of a Mexican drug cartel) but we aren’t in NYC, and that jury is going to be partially sequestered. Those jurors have my sympathy!

        1. Fulana del Tal*

          Damn! I had to fill out the jury questionnaire for the federal court downtown recently and I completely forgot about the El Chapo trial.

    5. Natalie*

      Wow, I had no idea juries (or some juries) had dress codes. I understand having some minimum standards but if I was going to be out of work for weeks being able to wear jeans all the time would be a helluva perk.

      1. Admin of Sys*

        IANAL but court as a whole has dress codes, regardless of what your position is – but they’re generally imposed by the judge, rather than any specific policy. As such, a judge can require folks to wear a certain level of ‘appropriate’ clothing. That said, I don’t think a judge would be able to get a juror for contempt just for violating a dress code unless the juror was wearing slurs or obscenities or something.

        1. Arjay*

          When I reported for jury duty, there was a young man there in a pair of shorts. He was sent home before ever leaving the jury pool room and I think told to report back and try again the following Monday.

    6. Doug Judy*

      Hopefully HR will work something out with him. A long time ago I worked somewhere where they had no jury duty policy because they never had someone actually called and sit on a trial. While mine was short they did pay me for my time at my regular rate. It’s possible that they will give him more paid time because it is very unusual for a trial to last that long. If nothing else perhaps they will agree to keep covering his insurance benefits until he returns. They might stick to their policy but it would not hurt to ask they make an acceptation for this unusual circumstance.

      I wouldn’t worry too much about clothing, I think they mainly don’t want people to look like they just rolled out of bed, so dark jeans and a collared shirt should be ok.

    8. Roja*

      Yikes, yikes, yikes. Talk about the minute chance of something like this happening… although that almost happened to me too earlier this year–never called up, then called up for a long and involved district court trial. Was one of the last two cut, I think, so I just barely squeaked out–it was good, since it was an 80 minute drive each way to the courthouse.

      (random advice following, ignore if not useful/wanted)
      Anyways, I assume the courts keep roughly business hours, so any chance for your son to pick up an evening or weekend gig for the three months? It would be rough, but short-term and might be well worth it. If you have one of the charities nearby that provides business clothes to people in need that might help too. Failing that, any friends who can loan him things temporarily? And failing THAT, I would think he could get enough clothes to get through a week at a local thrift store for less than $100–still a chunk, but not horrific.

      I’m sorry things are so rough for you and him right now. I hope things get better ASAP.

      1. CDM*

        we’re an hour out of the city, but 90 minutes commute time with traffic or by train. He’s going to use the train, but I’m getting conflicting info on whether the feds will cover $7/day or his actual ticket cost which will be $205/month. Yesterday he was gone from 6 am to 6:30pm. His company does run 24 hours and he previously worked second shift (and started as PT second shift) so in theory he could put in four hours/day at work, but realistically, I don’t see him being able to sustain a 6am – 11pm day with a max of 6 hours sleep for three months.

        Someone pointed out to me that polo shirts make jeans look a lot more professional, which hadn’t yet occurred to me. So I’m going to scrounge up some from friends, and can also get them for cheap from certain stores and call it a good enough. It’s a small piece, but making that decision helps reduce the overall problem!

        1. Roja*

          Ugh, that commute just makes everything so much worse. I don’t know what state you’re in but my state does cover mileage, and rather generously, or its equivalent, so I can only hope your state is equally healthy.

          Go polo shirts! That’s at least one big piece settled. Hopefully the company will work with him for the rest. Let him know we’re all rooting for him to make it through.

    9. OperaArt*

      My experience with being on juries (3 so far, the longest was for 8 weeks) is that he may be able to work at least one full day a week, or work some partial days. It won’t be enough to cover his financial losses, but every bit helps.
      We in the jury often didn’t need to go in on Fridays, and sometimes were dismissed in the early to mid afternoons on other days.
      I’m so grateful that my workplace pays our full salaries and benefits when we’re on jury duty! My county pays its jurors $15 per day and $0.34 per mile.. one way.

    10. LKW*

      Well I don’t like this advice but I’m going to give it to you anyway, the easiest way to get out of this situation is to do something very very stupid. If he goes into the jury room the first time and tells the other jurors that he’s made up his mind, someone would likely tell the baliff and he’ll get removed. Or he can send a friend request to any of the lawyers. I mean, super stupid but great way to get tossed from a jury.

      I’ve been called for Jury Duty three times and served on three trials. But they’ve been one week (or less) deals. I can’t imagine 12 weeks. That’s for federal employees and retired people to serve.

      1. CDM*

        that’s slightly better than my idea of getting him hit by a bus. But then he can’t work, either. (but has short term disability, so hmmm….)

        I can’t come up with an injury that precludes jury duty but not warehouse work, lol. I’ve tried.

      2. ThankYouRoman*

        You can be held in contempt for that kind of behavior since it’s over the top inappropriate and makes a mockery of the system. At most you can make yourself unappealing to the lawyers who will ask for your dismissal.

      3. neverjaunty*

        That’s an easy way to get yourself into a worse situation, namely contempt of court.

        I’m still baffled this guy didn’t explain he had a financial hardship when the jurors were asked about hardships.

    11. CDM*

      And I really, really, really wanted (still want) to call HR to ask 1) how many days they pay for jury duty and 2) how the continuation of his health insurance is going to work and if we have to pay just the employee responsibility or the full COBRA premium, because he can’t ask those questions until Monday.

      But I refrained. Entirely because of AAM. He’s 24. Even though I know we’re going to end up bailing him out significantly in the end, I need to sit back and let him navigate this as much as possible and see what solutions he comes up with. But I am going to go buy him a couple of more professional-ish shirts.

      I appreciate the comments, suggestions and sympathy. You all rock.

    12. Hiring Mgr*

      I served on a jury for three months and also got paid $50/day….but that was in 1991! Not sure where you are in the US but that sounds outrageously low

      1. CDM*

        I got paid $17/day for federal jury duty in 1990, which was a big bump over CT, which paid $8. $50/day in 91 was pretty generous. (sad to say). PA currently pays $9/day for the first three days. It’s ridiculous. Especially when you have to later pay income tax on that pittance.

    13. Tris Prior*

      I actually live in terror of this. I know someone who was sequestered for weeks on a criminal trial.

      I mean…. sorry, but, are there people who WOULDN’T have financial hardship due to having to go without pay for 12 WEEKS? I guess so, I just don’t know any. I’m curious how that even works, and how you prove financial hardship – like, do you have to turn over your bank accounts and pay stubs so they can see that you don’t have the savings to cover being out of work for that long?

      1. The Gollux (Not a Mere Device)*

        That skews juries toward people who aren’t working for money–including retired people, some disabled people, and people who have run out of unemployment money (so the jury pay is better than they were getting). And a nontrivial number of retired and disabled people would have trouble with the essentially full-time hours plus commute.

        Yes, we need juries. Yes, that’s going to interrupt people’s lives. But damn it, the government/taxpayers can pay the judges, prosecuting attorneys, court reporters, and so on, we should increase jury pay.

      3. A-nony-nony*

        My company pays you your regular rate of pay for jury duty, and lets you keep any fees you receive as a juror. CDM’s son might have been dismissed if he’d claimed hardship, but he didn’t, and the court would have no way to know that it’s a hardship unless he made that explicit.

      4. CDM*

        Federal employees get paid their regular salary for jury duty without limitations.

        Some state or other government employees might, too, but I really don’t know.

        Only 8 states require employers to pay for jury duty, and five of those limit the obligation to 1-5 days. It appears that in Nebraska, Alabama and Tennessee that employers are on the hook regardless of length of jury service. I’m kind of surprised at AL and TN mandating full pay. States that lean more progressive like NY, MA CT and CO only mandate pay for 3-5 days.

    15. HR*

      This sounds like a really hard time for him. But you can’t really blame the court when he didn’t speak up and say it was a financial burden. I work in HR and our employees usually just need a simple form letter from me to get out of jury duty for financial reasons. Or depending on the level of court they are required to show up the first day and then they call from court put me on the phone and I say “yeah they would miss out on tips or x pay” and they are off the hook right then and there no paperwork needed.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        A doctor’s note would work also. I have done that twice due to back problems and family upsets.

        Maybe he won’t be there the full 12 weeks. I think they give worst case scenario so people gear up for the long haul. It might not be necessary?

    16. Aphrodite*

      The jury thing is all messed up in this country. Last summer I got called, showed up, discovered the the criminal trial (a corporation was the defendant) might last as long as four months! While my employer will pay my salary and continue my benefits for as long as I am needed, there was no way I was willing to do that kind of time. Plus, the courthouse is downtown so free parking is either far, far away or you pay for it. And my job involves just my boss and me so it’s not as if it can be farmed out.

      Many people on here might fault me but I wasn’t going to do it. Getting a postponement wasn’t something I wanted either. So I waited until the first pool was narrowed down from about 48 people to less than a dozen. They sent us back to fill out a 35-age questionnaire. In it, I was able to explain how much I hated the company and why in more than one of my answers. I let all my loathing for their actions (or rather, inactions) spill out. Five days later I was notified I was being released from jury duty.

    17. Friday afternoon fever*

      I had jury duty for 2.5 weeks and one morning heading in I tripped, landed on my hands and knees, ripped my only pair of jeans and some skin. Went to court with kinda ripped mildly bloody jeans. Nobody said a thing, not sure if they even noticed.

      The point being — I wouldn’t worry about the dress code so much. He doesn’t have to buy new clothes, he should just dress cleanly. Probably nobody will be even looking at him to evaluate his level of dress unless he’s wearing something really egregiously inappropriate.

      Plus, he has 12 other jurors to blend in with and I guarantee they won’t all be wearing slacks and button downs.

    18. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’ve only been on a jury once, years ago, and I barely remember the process. I do recall my mom making me dress up. I’m always mildly concerned that I will have a summons sent to my parents’ old house and I will miss it because I’ve forgotten to update my address somewhere. Since I actually live overseas I’m sure I could get out of it but isn’t there a penalty for ignoring a summons?

      1. nonegiven*

        Your parents should return the mail to sender.

        When my son got called while he was 1700 miles away at school, I just dropped in with the unopened envelope and told them he was away at school in [state,] “do you want his address?”

  31. carrie heffernan*

    I am not looking for a new job, but got a message on LinkedIn from a rando saying they thought I’d be qualified for their open position.

    This is one of those times where like, hi, did you even GO through my profile? The job wants 2-5+ years of experience (I have over 10), so they’d probably laugh at me when I told them my salary requirements. Also, the job is near LAX and in all caps in the job description it says NO REMOTE WORK. Yeah, like I’m going to commute 30 miles in LA rush hour every day while taking a pay cut. Sign me up.

    1. Mazzy*

      That’s the recruiters I usually get to. I make about a hundred and regularly get calls for jobs in the fifty to seventy thousand range. I really don’t get the logic. Then they act like I’d be taken a step up when it’s a lateral move or potentially slightly downwards. But I might also be under titled.

      1. irene adler*

        Yeah, I’ve received some very “out there” job messages via LinkedIn.
        I think it’s a matter of simply appearing in their search because you have the requisite buzz words. And they are too lazy to read the profile before making contact.

    2. ThankYouRoman*

      This is my reaction to recruiters trying to get me for collections jobs. Yeah, AR is listed because I’m a frigging Accountant with extensive bookkeeping skillz. I’m not taking a minimum wage job calling people about their delinquent medical bills.

  32. Washi*

    Not looking advice per se, but curious if this is normal. A very well-liked employee retired about 6 months ago, and since then she’s visited the office almost once a week. She’s often taking various people out to lunch, but will stop in first to chat for 30-60 minutes. I like, her but it feels like a lot, and it’s really distracting because she has a naturally loud voice.

    Is this typical once someone leaves?

    2. Four lights*

      It can be, depending on how long the person has worked there, how close they were to people, how bored they are at home. Once a week is definitely a lot, but when you consider that she used to see these people every day for years…

      If she’s too loud you could bring it up with a manager.

    3. fposte*

      Not really, no. It happens occasionally with somebody struggling a bit with the transition, so it’s not unheard of, but she’s treating work as her social hangout. 6 months is also a long time for it to persist.

      I think you can ask her to move the socializing to another location so you can get your work done, and I might also bring up the frequency of the distraction to your manager.

      1. LKW*

        This. If she wasn’t gleefully discussing retirement or if the company has mandatory retirement ages,she might be having a hard time moving forward. If work was a primary source of social contact it’d be tough to let it go.

        However everyone I’ve known lucky enough to retire ran away laughing and never looked back.

        1. Washi*

          I’m actually pretty surprised at the frequency, since it was only partly motivated by health issues and mainly voluntary (there’s no mandatory retirement at my organization) and because she has a very active social life outside work. However I do think our work was a huge source of meaning for her since we do social services and maybe that’s what she’s missing.

          1. LKW*

            Yeah – she might be searching for the next thing that gives her purpose. I recommend patience, if only because it’s kind of sad.

            But yeah… weird.

        2. fposte*

          We have a pretty tight-knit workplace and there are former-employee groups who meet up for regular socializing, but visits to the actual office are pretty infrequent. (I think they wisely want to make sure nobody tries to put them to work.)

    5. tink*

      My old manager has visited once or twice since she moved on, but the first was to pick something up that got sent after her last day and the second was because she happened to be in the area? Our person that retired earlier this year has not been back in the building since.

      So yes, this feels a little weird to me.

    7. ThankYouRoman*

      I’ve seen it happen when people are particularly close to their coworkers. We had plenty of old workers coming back to see my old bosses. The bosses were mentors of shorts most often. So lots of lunch time random visits.

      But these sound distracting and every week is hella frequent for any visitor.

  33. Senorita Conchita*

    What do you do when coworkers are pressuring you into dating a coworker because “you’d be so cute together!”?

    My coworkers noticed “Todd” and I acting awkward around each other. Now they’re acting like kids and go, “Oooooh” whenever Todd walks through the area or they like to tease me.

    I get nervous and awkward in general around guys, so my coworkers probably interpreted this as me liking Todd, but I get like this around *every* guy. It’s to the point where Todd seems uncomfortable around me now.

    I went to dinner with some other people and they were talking about how Todd is a good guy, etc. Other coworkers just stare or look at each other if we’re in the same room. It’s strange.

    I have bills to pay and a mortgage, so I can’t afford to lose my job over this.

    I think that Todd is funny, but he can be moody, so that’s not appealing to me.

    This whole thing is awkward, embarrassing, and uncomfortable!

    What do I do? How do I get them to stop talking about this?

    1. Four lights*

      Tell them to stop and that it’s making you uncomfortable. If it doesn’t work, go to your manager and/or HR. I think this could be sexual harassment. I’m not sure, but it’s still not good.

      1. Tara S.*

        Sometimes people think something is funny and will keep on with it if they don’t get explicit signals that you’re not ok with it. Otherwise decent people sometimes let this play on too long, so I think a quick “I don’t date at work, please stop joking about it” can let people know “oh, this thing I thought was harmless is actually making her uncomfortable, I’ll stop.” It sucks that body language hasn’t already clued them in, but I don’t think it’ll take much, unless they are actually jerks.

    2. carrie heffernan*

      ugh what are they, all middle schoolers? You can say adamantly that you don’t fish off the company pier, OR this would totally be a situation where I’d make up a fake boyfriend to try and shut it down if #1 doesn’t work.

    3. fposte*

      Be firm. “I’m not going to date Todd; please don’t talk about it any more, and please stop the sit-com stuff that makes me feel that that matters more than my work.”

    4. No Tribble At All*

      Say you have a policy against dating coworkers — too much possibility for it to blow up in your face. Sorry they’re doing that to you.

    5. Detective Amy Santiago*

      “We are not living in a rom-com or a sitcom and I have no intention of dating any coworkers. Please stop making a professional relationship awkward.”

    6. Myrin*

      “Todd certainly is a friendly guy but I’m not interested in him. Can you please stop talking about this?”, said earnestly and adjusted however strongly or lightly to suit your style/personality.

      Your coworkers are behaving like unreasonable twelve-year-olds. You don’t start dating someone just because you fit together aesthetically and because the other person is “a good guy/gal”. What utter nonsense!

    7. Psyche*

      Be very direct. “I know you think this is funny but it really isn’t to me. It is making me very uncomfortable at work, and to be honest it is making me feel uncomfortable being around you. This isn’t middle school. This isn’t a rom-com. This is my life. I have no interest in dating Todd and I need you to stop.”

    8. LJay*

      Ugh, I’ve been in this situation before.

      Right down to the moodiness.

      I just ignored it – just refused to acknowledge them making noise or comments or the implication in any way – and the guy got a new job a couple months later so then it went away on it’s own. But that’s probably not a viable solution in your case.

      I wish I had more advice, but I don’t. Just wanted to let you know that you’re not alone in this situation and it truly is crappy and uncomfortable.

      1. Senorita Conchita*

        There are some new younger women starting in his section, so I’m hoping the attention will shift to them, instead of me.

    9. Sleepytime Tea*

      “I don’t date people from work.”
      “It’s very nice of you to think so, but I’m not interested in discussing my dating life at work. I keep my personal life separate.”
      “You’re right, Todd is a lovely person, however we are just coworkers and it will stay that way.”
      “Please stop suggesting that I date Todd. It’s not funny or cute, it’s just uncomfortable. We’re not teenagers and I’m not interested in dating my professional colleagues.”

    10. LilySparrow*

      “Knock it off. That stopped being funny a long time ago.”

      “Who I date or not is none of your business. I’m done talking about this.”

      “Look, I already told you to cut it out. Why are you being so obnoxious?”

      Now, I realize that those type of comments aren’t going to foster work friendships, and you probably aren’t comfortable saying them. That’s fine. But that strong of an attitude is completely justified and appropriate in this situation.

      So if you have that subtext in your head, I’m sure you can find the wording that fits you.

      You’ve done nothing wrong and they are choosing to be giant flaming assholes. Internalize that knowledge, and even a well-placed, “Seriously???” can suck the fun right out of it for them.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      Cue the boss in on what is going on. Then add, “Here is what I plan to do. If this does not work I will be coming back in to talk to you.”
      To them you might consider saying, “Because of the awkwardness comments like that make, the government put sexual harassment laws in place. I don’t think you intend to create awkwardness, but it does. However this not only creates awkwardness for me but also for some folks who must watch this every day. I don’t date people I work with. Considering these facts I think we can agree that there is nothing to talk about here and we can stop these types of comments now.”

      If you ask them to stop and they push back, just say, “I am not comfortable with these comments. Just because others think they are funny/benign/whatever does not mean that is what *I* think also. I am asking you to stop, can you do that?”

  34. Say It Ain't So*

    I’m having a phone call this afternoon with a hiring manager who reached out to me about an open position. I don’t know her personally, but the position is at my alma mater. I love my current job and organization and am not actively looking to leave or job hunt, but said I would be willing to learn more about this position.

    Am I supposed to have my resume ready? Is this an informal interview of sorts, even though I’ve not applied or indicated any interest in applying prior to them calling me? I’m not sure what to prepare for!

    1. Rose Tyler*

      I would print out the most recent version of your resume (probably the one you used to get your current job) to refresh yourself on those highlights, plus be able to talk about your current role and recent successes. I’d also think about what questions you’d want answered to know if you’d be interested in the role, so you can ask them on the call. Beyond that I’d just roll with it as a professional phone meeting – no in-depth interview prep needed, but it’s also not a super-casual chat.

    2. Sleepytime Tea*

      Yes, have your resume ready, dress like you would for an interview, etc. If you do end up being really interested in the position, you’ll kick yourself for not making the best first impression possible. There’s no downside to being over prepared in this situation.

    3. PFC Micah Hayes*

      I know it sounds all Pollyanna and whatnot, but in all seriousness: you should *always* have your resume ready. It doesn’t need to be current – you can always say “I really need to bring this up to date” – but you should always have something ready to email or to print whenever an opportunity arises.

      In short: Resume? Yes. Informal interview: Sure sounds like it.

      All that said: be wary if they contacted you from out of the blue. Just me, but in talking with this person, the first thing I would do is nail down that they are actually a hiring manager at whatever institution they claim to represent (and that they’re not some recruiter with questionable ethics who is wasting your time).

    4. Midwest writer*

      I’m a little late, but I hope you’re still checking in, just in case.
      I just went through this about a month ago. My conversations all ended up happening by phone and she never asked to see my resume, but if you’re going in in person, yes, I’d take it.
      I ended up accepting the job, but first I made a list for myself of the things I’d need to get to leave a job I really enjoy. For me, those were not losing all paid vacation (because some jobs make you accrue and start over), not losing my ability to work remotely, not needing to move, plus more money. The interviewer ended up coming back with all of those, plus a few things I hadn’t thought about. Ask lots and lots of questions, and look to see if this job advances you to the next level in what you want to do career-wise. That can mean all sorts of things to different people, obviously, but for me it was a chance to be involved directly in managing the newspaper in a few years, on a small scale at a very small newspaper.

  35. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

    I was laid off a few weeks ago. My organization is remote and the laying off was done by senior staff and not my direct supervisor. Since then I’ve heard from other people, but not from my supervisor. Our last communication was a meeting two days before my laying off where they talked about how I did a great job and planned out future work. The termination was effective immediately, so I didn’t have the opportunity to tie loose ends or communicate anything. That’s frustrating, but the larger issue is emotional: we had what I thought was a good relationship and mutual respect. I know they didn’t have a hand in decision making, so I’m just kind of perplexed and a little hurt.

    1. Tara S.*

      I would reach out to your boss with your personal email, just a quick note along the lines of “hey, sorry I didn’t get to talk to you since all the sudden layoff stuff. I just wanted to let you know that I really enjoyed working with you and thank you for all your support! Best of luck for the future.” Now they have your personal email if they want to contact you in the future, plus who doesn’t want to get a nice note like that? Also maybe add them on LinkedIn.

  36. School Inclusion Specialist*

    Someone is stealing things from my desk/office. And I think it is a co-worker. Things have gone missing during times only adults are in the school. Most that are going missing are things that I wouldn’t think to lock up–a book (an important reference for my job), my name plate on my desk, a pack of pens inside a drawer in my desk (discovered this today–hence the rant).

    My laptop charger went missing (between the end of parent night and the next morning). So when I bought the replacement, I also bought Tile trackers and will be attaching one to the new charger.

    As a person who both is a little disorganized and works hard to see things positively, it took me a while to realize that it probably wasn’t me misplacing things and even longer to get mad. But now I’m f—ing pissed and want to set up cameras around my desk.

    1. Tara S.*

      I have no advice, only support, I would be furious about it too (it may not be a huge deal in the scheme of all things, but it’s a breach of trust! WTF!)

    2. Lil Fidget*

      A nameplate?? that is extremely odd. I’ve worked in offices where valuable things get lifted sometimes, and lots of offices where random things like office supplies or chargers might be grabbed if someone was in a pinch and desperately needed one. But your personal nameplate? That is like, there’s kleptomaniac around, or someone is deliberately messing with you.

        1. School Inclusion Specialist*

          Yeah, that was when I had my “ah ha” moment and realized I wasn’t misplacing my things and someone was taking them.

          I switch back and forth between hoping the Tile works and being horrified that it might.

          1. Windchime*

            I love Tile trackers. I have one on my keys and another on my work badge. They work great, but you do have to be within a decent proximity for them to work.

            I had someone stealing diet Coke from the case under my desk once. I finally put a note on the case, saying, “Please stop stealing my pop. It isn’t yours.” The stealing stopped. (It’s probably not always going to work like that, but I feel like the thief got called out and embarrassed, so they stopped.)

            1. Polyhymnia O'Keefe*

              Tiles can work with the larger community — if you opt in, you can anonymously use other users’ connection to find your items. (And if someone finds their item based on your connection, you get a nice little message saying so! No details, but just letting you know that your Tile account helped someone find their stuff.)

              I have a co-worker whose work keys (with a Tile on them) were stolen from her car, among other items. She pinged the Tile, which was, obviously, outside of her own range, and within about 2 days, her keys pinged back at a police station.

              Without that, she probably wouldn’t have gotten them back, because there was nothing particularly identifiable about them, but because she was able to ping back to them, she was able to go to the station and get them back.

    3. Rose Tyler*

      I would talk to your supervisor. The charger cord is $ and someone going through your drawers is a big problem.

    4. RabbitRabbit*

      They make little cameras that are as small as those USB plug adapters to charge phones/etc off of. Look on Amazon.

      I sympathize. Nothing has gone missing on our desks that I know of, but a few lunches have disappeared from the fridge, and in the off hours (so it’s either housekeeping or security) people will sit at our desks, use phones/computers, etc.

    5. The Rain In Spain*

      Have you reported this to anyone? Or just asked co-workers if anyone’s being ‘borrowing’ things from your desk because several things have gone missing?

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +1 I’d start here. Maybe someone who is a bit dense is just borrowing them and didn’t realize it’d be an issue (NO IDEA why they’d need your nameplate…)

      2. School Inclusion Specialist*

        I’ve done both.

        My supervisor offered to buy me a locked box, but none of the things that have been taken are things I would put in a box. The people who work near my space say they don’t know where anything is.

        1. female peter gibbons*

          For interest/curiosity’s sake

          1) one time coworkers set up a camera in the kitchen area to see who had been stealing food. Cut to us all watching around a monitor as the female janitor went through the fridge and happily munched on other people’s apples, bagels, and more.

          2) One time a coworker’s prized action figures went missing from his desk. Cut to, a few weeks later, another mortified coworker bringing them back the office from her house, because when her 7 and 9 year old boys visited, they took them and brought them home.

          1. WellRed*

            Oooh, that janitor one is tough! It’s totally wrong of her but then you wonder if she’s food insecure ( dislike that phrase). The other one made me laugh..yet another reason not to have your kids at work.

        2. valentine*

          If you don’t want to replace stuff, why not put everything portable in a lockbox? Or can you get a locker? If the trackers work on other items, go for it. Can you have a schoolwide silent scavenger hunt for the items? The nameplate seems like the easiest to find.

  37. Amber Rose*

    Two weeks after I started, I’m finally almost done my audit (on page 100 out of 130 of the write up). Despite my best efforts to warn people that I would NOT be available until I was done, I constantly had people bugging me about stuff we’re out of, emails they sent me, orders that needed processing, new hires, and last minute stuff they forgot about that needed to be done RIGHT NOW. To the point of walking in on interviews and threatening my vow of confidentiality that I swore before a government official. So something that should have been done last week is not going to be done until this afternoon, and I am concerned the results are not totally… good. :/

    As a result of me utterly boycotting all phone answering and non-critical order processing for these two weeks though, they are now seriously considering hiring a secretary. I think they realized just how MUCH work it is to run a department and play secretary and do sales now that they’ve had to share that task among other people, especially since we’re sickeningly busy. Like, just unbelievably overwhelmed with orders. So maybe I’ll have someone to take the edge off my volumes of work eventually. I hate answering the phone, it interrupts my train of thought every time.

    It’s amazing though, how the best way to get respect sometimes is to just stop doing things.

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Good for you–best part is no one can complain that the audit shouldn’t be your highest priority. And now that they have seen the results of you being unavailable, I’m sure they’re imagining the results of you winning PowerBall!

  38. Workerbee*

    My employee is a broken record, but also demoralized. How can I help her?

    I inherited this employee in February when I shifted departments. She’s been at the company for 20 years to my 6. She’s perhaps a little older than I am, but I really don’t know.

    I really feel for her. She’s a hard worker stuck in the kind of job that truly helps our customers and earns their gratitude. She loves helping our customers, but her role doesn’t seem to get much respect internally–and nor does she.

    When I found out I would be managing her, I spoke with her previous managers. I saw a consistent tendency toward eye-rolling, sighing, and a general sense of giving up on her, while also not really tapping into all the things she could be capable of doing. She’s in the job she’s in and nobody really seemed interested in helping her grow.

    I quickly saw that about 3/4s of the stuff she’s been doing had been dumped on her because nobody else wanted to do it, and because they could very loosely tie it to her official job description. I removed and reassigned that 3/4s, got her working on a project that appeals to her creative side (that she absolutely loves, yay!), and have been working to put other opportunities in her way that will help show people who have the budget and decision-making power that she is more than Just Employee-Name.

    So. One of the projects she’d worked on before I got to her was one she really got deep into and really liked. It then stalled for two years due to Big Boss (In)Decisions.

    I joined the department and was immediately handed this same project to oversee with my new-to-me employee on the team. We got the project all the way up to approval by my boss when a major business-direction-changing decision rocked the company. Project stalled again! It’s not forgotten, however, and will be slotted back in as we work our way through the new high-level umbrella stuff.

    My employee did not take it well at the time and months later, still isn’t. To her, this is personal. And she finds a way to bring it up at every 1:1 meeting we have. She can be pretty crafty about it, too; just when I think we’ve made it through our session without it being brought up once, there it comes.

    I’ve tried to put it into perspective for her. I clearly state that this is JUST postponed, not forgotten, and neither has her role in it. In fact, I was very recently able to share that my boss told me she’d have a stronger, more pivotal role in this and other things when we get all the other stuff well under way. And that I want her to focus on the projects she does have while we work toward shaping a career plan for her and helping show (and showcase) her skills.

    She listens and nods and says she understands…but continues to see it as “No.” She sees it as her being shot down. She sees it as yet another promise that was once again not kept. There are sometimes tears.

    And I get it. I do. I’ve seen how she’s been sat on for a long time in this company. I know that this is by far not the first time she’s been told Yes for something she was excited about, only to have it suddenly disappear.

    But I also know I can’t manage her emotions for her, and I can’t make things happen that are out of my control.
    I’d now like to stop her outright from talking about this particular project every time we meet, but I’m not sure the best way to handle it.

    Is it as simple as just telling her the subject is off the table for now, and being my own broken record until she gets it? I confess I don’t want to be seen as just another manager who hasn’t listened to her, but maybe that’s something else I’ll just have to risk.

    1. Mouse in the House*

      I think you’ve done all you can for her. Explain that you were given this project under the assumption that it was going to move forward, not be stalled, and while it’s unfortunate that it is stalled again, them’s the breaks. Heck, I’ve had a project stall twice, and have our CEO punish our department by not allowing us to hire new employees, which means I’m taking on way more work than before, but I don’t feel so demoralized that I cry about the stalled project.

      I think telling her that the subject is off the table is all that you can do. Perhaps tell her that you want to see if the higher-ups will re-open it, but until that happens, she needs to let it go and focus on other things.

      Alternatively… if she’s feeling like other managers haven’t listen to her, do you think it would be helpful to ask her to problem-solve her own situation? Like, “It sucks that you can’t work on X project, but is there another one that you’d be interested in handling? What initiatives do you propose to work on that would advance our work at ABC Teapots, Inc.?”

      1. Workerbee*

        Ugh, I’m sorry you have to put up with that kind of CEO.

        I like your problem-solving scenario! She definitely loves to research & get in the details.

    2. CDM*

      I think maybe the way to go is to acknowledge what you’ve said here.

      Jane, I know you perceive the postponement of Project X as another broken promise by management. I know that no matter how many times I assure you it’s just postponed, that you aren’t going to be secure in that belief until it actually happens. There’s really nothing more I can do to convince you that it will happen at some point, until it actually happens, and right now, trying unsuccessfully reassure you is taking time away from other things we need to focus on.

      Probably works best if you can immediately bean dip into – what’s your status update on CurrentProject?

      Oooh, on reflection, I’m changing my answer. Take control of the subject. Start every 1:1 meeting with a no-news update on project X.

      Jane, I want you to know that nothing’s happening on ProjectX but management and I are still committed to it and it’s on our radar. Now, what’s your status update on CurrentProject?

      1. CDM*

        I do think telling her the subject is off the table is just going to make her think that it’s never going to go anywhere. But a brief, matter-of-fact acknowledgement that it’s still stalled but not dead, without letting it devolve into tears or recriminations would be reassuring.

        1. Workerbee*

          I like both your suggestions! I think I can combine them, too…*noodling*

          The no-news + not stalled + redirect variant, and I can jump in with your first part if I get the “I just wish” or “Yeah but.”

          And then use something like “I need to know you can accept this at least for the purposes of our meetings so we’re using our limited time effectively.”

    3. WellRed*

      To her, this is personal. And she finds a way to bring it up at every 1:1 meeting we have. She can be pretty crafty about it, too; just when I think we’ve made it through our session without it being brought up once, there it comes.

      I think maybe there’s additional reasons why this is employee is stuck that are squarely on her shoulders. Tell her it’s off the table for now and you are through discussing it.

      1. Workerbee*

        I was thinking that she does have to meet me at least halfway with her acceptance of things, and not derailing our meetings.

    4. Emily S.*

      I really don’t know what the best course is, but I want to say that it sounds like you’re being very supportive and managing her extremely well. I would be thrilled if I had a manager like you, tbh.

      I know this would be tough, but it seems like you might just have to firmly state that because this project is on the back burner indefinitely, it needs to be off the table until you say it’s time to discuss it again. But that is so much easier said that done!

      1. Workerbee*

        Thank you for that!

        I have been trying to absorb and apply all the excellent advice I’ve read here over the years from Alison & the commentariat, as well as that over on Captain Awkward. Work can be very personal.

    5. Kathenus*

      Is it possible to get a general timeline from your boss for how/when this project might move forward? Or even schedule quarterly official updates with your boss on it, even if the update is no progress at that time? Then you share these updates with the employee? This might help by 1) keeping it on your boss’s radar so she can help keep it moving forward as soon as it can, 2) setting up open communication and transparency with your employee about the project, and 3) having scheduled check-ins on this specific topic might help keep it off her every meeting agenda approach that she has now.

      Separately, have you asked specifically what her solution is to the current situation, since neither you nor she have the authority right now to move the project forward? If she acknowledges that the only solution involves things outside of either of your control, maybe it will help reset her expectations that anything in your one on one’s is going to be able to impact this project’s status. It may not affect her unhappiness with the current situation, but maybe she’ll realize that continuing to stress over something she (and you) have no control over is only making her unhappy. A mental reset coupled with scheduled updates on this specific topic might help ratchet down her continual focus on this day to day.

      1. Workerbee*

        Oooh. I’m pondering as I type this. At risk of info-dumping here–

        The umbrella project that capsized the other project is still in its infancy. There was a big presentation on it very recently, with everything laid out from workstreams to deadline, where the presenter invited people to poke holes in it where needed. Enough holes were poked that the entire project and the deadline itself went back to committee. Last I heard, they changed the name of the project to fit the changed scope. *grinning*

        My employee is not yet part of any of this; it’s all high-level at this stage, and then eventually practically everyone in the company will be drawn in. In addition to her unhappiness over her stalled project, she believes she should be consulted with this new project right now, and so I’m trying to manage her expectations. With this albatross, though, I don’t yet have a concrete time or even a concrete plan to share with her because the higher-ups don’t yet know what they’re doing.

        My boss is closer to it than I am, so I can at least ask him when he thinks the next update will be, and I can set that as a scheduled check-in with her.

        I love your mental reset idea; I will see what she says.

        1. valentine*

          She’s way too attached to and possessive of these projects. The postponed one may stay in limbo, so, no more promises, and tell her no more bringing it up. Bringing it up yourself would just reinforce her weird relationship to it. It’s like she doesn’t agree with what is/n’t her call to make. And be wary of presenting things as us vs them. It doesn’t serve her to white-knight for her against the baddies. Are you giving her too much detail? Does she need to know who said what or just that TBTB, including you, have decided xyz? There’s no point banging on about things outside her sphere of influence.

    6. BluntBunny*

      Could you just stop her and say “I understand your feelings and have not forgotten is there anything else you would like to discuss?” Or say I do not have anything further to add/share on this or I don’t have any news I will update you when I hear something there no need to keep asking.

      1. Juniantara*

        At the risk of being too harsh, keep an eye on this behavior. If these sort of strong reaction to project setbacks, especially an emotional reaction to normal business activities, is part of her normal behavior pattern, that may explain part of her reputation inside the company.

        1. Workerbee*

          “That may explain part of her reputation inside the company.” – I believe it does. I’ve found a couple substantial projects for her to channel her caring/passion into, yet I’ve also found that these don’t seem to be enough.

          @BluntBunny, it may come down to that kind of hard stop, indeed.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      “Jane, we have a small problem here. We end up in these circular conversations where I tell you a project is on hold you say okay then later on seem to indicate that you do not believe the project will be revived.
      I am trying to help you find a path through your disbelief but I seem to be failing. What can we do to stop these circular conversations?”

      Then stop and just wait for her answer.
      It could be that no one has ever explained business norms to her. It’s normal for projects to move to the back burner as another project becomes more important. It could be that she is very burned out and her only solution is to leave the job.

      Honestly if everyone I worked with disrespected me to this degree here I would leave the job. You seem to be the only friend/advocate she has in the place. If I were in your spot I would be pointing out that I have done x,y and z for her because I DO understand the mechanics of what is wrong here. But I can’t move Mt. Everest in one day nor one week or month. It will take lots of time. And it will require her to pull herself together and override her own disbelief. You can’t do that for her, you can’t console her hard enough to make her disbelief go away. Only she can do that.

      1. Workerbee*

        “It could be that no one has ever explained business norms to her.”

        I’d not thought of that aspect at all. I’ll use some language to that effect, and hopefully it’ll start to seem far less personal.

        And yes, I do need her to either work to get past her disbelief or at least set it aside for this particular recurring meeting. Baby steps!

  39. Business Cat Is Overwhelmed*

    I recently left a full time admin job for health reasons, and took a part time job at a local non-profit. My main duties have been reception, light filing, and some special creative projects like designing posters and helping with event displays. But now I have been asked to complete a large project that I really feel is outside of my purview. My boss wants me to go back through years and years of files and pull specific documentation, and discard a lot of the remaining docs. Then she wants me to go back through the past three or so years of financial docs and scan them into the computer, creating a new filing system. This is exactly the kind of work that I specifically tried to escape by leaving my last job, and I was up late last night stressing out about it. Now I’m feeling frustrated and a bit taken advantage of, and I’m not sure how to address it, or if I should just suck it up and do the project. Any advice for how to address this with my boss would be so helpful!

    1. Tara S.*

      This is definitely the kind of thing I did as an admin, and as a boss I wouldn’t hesitate to give it to an admin, even a part time one. Is there something specific about this type of work that stresses you out?

    2. WellRed*

      This sounds normal to me. Is it that it sounds too tedious for you? Are you afraid you don’t know what to discard?

    3. Alisanora*

      Unfortunately I think you’ll probably have to do the project. If you’re an admin/receptionist then that kind of thing is generally expected. To be honest, I’m not clear on what there is to address.

      If you think you would be unable to do this for health reasons, then bring it up. If you don’t think you have the right knowledge, then ask for her guidance. But I don’t think you’re being taken advantage of.

    4. zora*

      Don’t just suck it up!!!
      If this is about health issues (that’s what I’m assuming), then be upfront with your boss and specific. “I really want to help, but there are certain things I can’t do, I can’t lift, or carry or, etc.” Be really specific about which parts of the project you can’t do and which things you can, they will probably be able to split the pieces up and have someone else help with the others. Any even marginally good boss doesn’t want you to hurt yourself or make yourself ill to do a part-time job! But they don’t know what you haven’t told them, so be upfront and advocate for yourself!

      And include language about how you definitely want to help however you can, but these are the things you can’t do. If they are mad at you for being honest about your physical limitations, they are terrible people.

    5. Kathenus*

      Following up on zora’s comment, can you parse out what parts of the project are stressing you out? If there are only one or two aspects that are causing this, there might be flexibility in those parts or getting assistance for these areas. Figure out what specifically you’re having a problem with, and it might be easier to solve than the whole project being the issue. Reading the details, the one part that I’d have a concern about is the discarding of documents. So if it was me, I’d want to separate out the ‘non-specific’ documents but have another person review them to decide if they are appropriate to be discarded or not so decision wasn’t solely on me. There might be a solution that’s somewhere between doing the project as is and not doing it at all.

  40. Goomba*

    Question: i don’t feel like going to our corporate Xmas party but I hear in past parties the corp office gave extravagant gifts like Beats headphones for all employees who attended. Would it be considered rude for me to inquire if I still get a gift even if I don’t attend party?

    1. Amber Rose*

      I think it’s fair to assume you wouldn’t. Gifts given out at parties are usually part of the entertainment for the night and also an incentive to be there, not something that just goes to employees regardless.

      I don’t think it would be rude to ask, but I also think the optics of doing so might not be a good thing.

      1. Beehoppy*

        Agreed. I’ve never heard of anyone getting a gift that didn’t go to the party, and it will read like you care more about the material rewards than building bonds with your colleagues. Don’t ask.

    2. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Ha I totally get where you’re coming from. I would subtly ask coworkers (in a casual, off-hand manner), but definitely not anyone higher up who might be offended/hold it against you.

    4. Holly*

      Not only rude, but very out of touch – clearly the gift is not just a reward for employees but an incentive to attend.

      You could always stop in for a bit and leave within the hour.

      1. Boo Hoo*

        Ya you are basically saying that you can’t be bothered to spend time with them but want the pricey gift.

    5. Workerbee*

      I don’t read this as rude; we have no idea what corp environment Goomba has to exist in or whether it’s a good fit. Spending off-hour or off-the-clock time with employees one only tolerates to pay the bills wouldn’t fill me with glee either. But here there’s the promise of something that could lighten the load a bit, however perceived as ‘material’–yet still with the cost of having to grin & bear it for an hour or more.

      Not to speak for you, Goomba! I agree it’s unlikely that the gifts will be held over for employees who don’t attend. Sometimes you get a kind office manager type who will remember you, but also you might have to be that person’s crony.

      1. Namast'ay in Bed*

        I’m with you on this one, I don’t agree with the people who are calling Goomba rude and out of touch, especially without knowing their office culture. I think there’s nothing wrong with determining whether or not receiving something nice is contingent on doing something unpleasant. I can also imagine a scenario where gifts are gifts because the company wanted to do something nice for their employees, not bribe them for their attendance. (But perhaps I am too optimistic and out of touch with that thought ;-). )

        So at face value there isn’t anything wrong with the question, but realistically some people might find the question rude, and that’s something to be aware of. I think it’s possible to present it in a way that isn’t rude, but genuinely information seeking. It sounds like this is your first holiday party with the company – I’d ask some coworkers about what these things are typically like. If it’s an after hours event (which it sounds like it is) you could frame it as a “I have a conflict that evening, is it worth rearranging my schedule/missing out on my commitment to make the party?” (sitting on your couch is a commitment enough!), that seems like a natural opening for someone to say whether or not there are attendance-contingent benefits beyond food and “fun”.

    6. Goomba*

      Thank you Workerbee! It looks like I stand to lose more than I can gain by asking. Like Amber Rose says, because of the optics and how asking may be perceived by higher ups.

      Just to give a little bit of context, the party is going to be on a Saturday evening, an hour and a half commute from where I live. I have to use public transport or Uber/Lyft because I don’t own a car, and arrange for childcare for my elementary age kid.

      I work on a client-site situation so don’t really get to mingle with most of the folks in the corporate office on a day to day basis.

      I do get it that gift = attending in most situations. Just wondering if there could have been a way around that given what it will take for me to attend (commute, childcare, etc.). Thanks all for the advice and feedback!

      1. Holly*

        I think it’s a cost benefit analysis for you. Do you want to arrange childcare and commute just for Beats headphones? It seems the real benefit is to network with people in the company that you don’t normally get to interact with. If all you’re interested in is the gift, I’m not sure it makes sense.

      2. Namast'ay in Bed*

        Oh dang, considering it will be a true hardship to attend, I think you’d definitely be able to ask if it’s worth a 3-hour commute and paying for childcare without looking rude. If it were me, I wouldn’t want to do that unless there was some serious networking opportunities or a reallllly good gift, and I think people would be understanding.

        Though I suppose you still run the chance of pearl-clutching and “how dare you not sacrifice everything for the company”, so that’s up to you to know your audience.

        1. Goomba*

          Thank you Namast’ay! Yeah, it definitely is a situation where I have to read into and know my audience.

          1. valentine*

            Don’t go. They might order enough of the gift for everyone and the difference is just where you were when you received it, or there will be extras and your supervisor will grab some for your department. See if any large shipments come in pre-party and be attuned for talk of the party planners having to transport it to the party.

      3. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Now that I’ve heard THAT part. It sounds like it’s “only” the logistics of lengthy trip + childcare keeping you from the event. So…would you consider staying at a nearby motel with your child if you could find a co-worker who lives nearby whose teen regularly babysits? Obviously some children don’t travel well…mine was colicky as an infant then went through years of getting carsick so I could not have done this. But there’s always a chance someone might say yes.

        It’s not totally crazy… We’re actually thinking of asking one of my husband’s co-workers if they want my daughter to babysit their child at our house the night of the company party. She knows where to find everything, and if anything comes up I can get Uber home.

  41. Mimmy*

    So something happened at work yesterday and I let it get to me.

    There was an incident with one of our students. I was not personally involved, but I did hear a tiny bit of the beginnings of this student’s freakout. It apparently escalated from there and the student was sent home. As I said, I did not personally deal with the situation, but I could tell that those who did were a bit frazzled, including the assistant I was helping. Maybe it was just a culmination of things (this student has been a problem as soon as they started our program), but I was alarmed at how much I let the situation get to me even though I was not directly involved. It was driving me nuts – I finally asked a coworker (in private) what the blankety-blank happened.

    I know many workplaces can have occasional crises, especially when you are dealing with vulnerable populations (our program is designed for adults with a specific disability, but some present with additional challenges), but if I’m not directly involved, why the eff am I so impacted? It’s happened to me before, and it worries me. Everyone suggests mindfulness and all that good stuff, but I’m not very good at that.

    I definitely feed off of whatever environment I’m in and the mood of those around me. If the mood is positive, I feel good. If there’s tension, then I feel tense. If there’s sadness, I feel sad.

    This is weird, right?

    1. Pinkie Pie*

      It’s called being empathic. Lots of people in social services tend to be that way. My advice, after 14 years in human services, is to work on your destressers. I also literally have a spot outside of work that I mentally left all my work related thoughts there. I drove past it going to work and picked up my thoughts there as well. I’d play audio books to block the thoughts on the way home.

      Working with people with disabilities is hardbreaking- the now you see, the future you can see for them. If you don’t have a way to drop the thoughts and turn off work at some point it will drive you crazy. My boss did judo, my coworker left work and swam, I listened to audio books.

      1. Mimmy*

        It’s partly why I’ve been questioning whether or not I really do want to continue with this type of work and transition to more project-oriented work (I’d love to be a non-lab research assistant!) Our program is instructional, not really social services (though we do have a social worker). I’ve been thinking lately about getting into higher ed disability services, but that too probably comes with its own chaotic situations.

        1. Pinky Pie*

          That’s a good thing to be thinking about. College disability services used to be a goal of mine, until I got hired in a dysfunctional office. Now, if my partner wants to move, I might be open to it in another state, in another lifetime. (It’s it own crazy with craziness wrapped in insanity in the place I worked)

      2. Teacake*

        This isn’t empathy so much as vicarious trauma and the beginnings of burnout. You can be empathetic and not carry everyone else’s stuff – but to do that you need to build up your own resources and get some support for yourself.

    2. Not Maeby but Surely*

      I don’t think it’s weird. I think it’s a personality-type thing. But I’m very much that way (my mood depends a lot on the hive mood), so maybe I just don’t want to admit I’m weird.

    3. Tara S.*

      I don’t think this is weird at all, just being empathetic, like Pinkie Pie said. This happens to me almost every time there’s something stressful happening near me, but I work in an office where it’s really rare for it to actually come up (family visits and fights, on the other hand, are…woof). I got stressed out for an hour when I heard my coworker tearily fighting with her boyfriend through our shared office wall! It’s just a reaction. You manage it and move on, but there’s nothing weird or wrong about having it.

    4. Joielle*

      I don’t think it’s weird! I’m the same way. I don’t exactly believe in empaths, in the paranormal sense, but I do think some of us are much more closely attuned to and affected by others’ moods. I used to drive my husband crazy focusing on his emotions even more than he was. I make more of a conscious effort these days to honor the fact that not everyone experiences emotions and processes them the same way I do.

    5. First Time Caller*

      I don’t think it’s weird, especially if you’re in an empathetic profession. I’m in a not-especially empathetic profession and I still get incredibly tense and stressed by my boss’s tendency to go from a 0-60 temper, even when it’s not directed at me. I end up using other sounds to block it out because it was making me so nervous.

    6. LilySparrow*

      No. This is normal. Humans are social creatures, we aren’t meant to be mentally or emotionally isolated from the people around us.

      You do need to develop routines to step back and process or let go of things, though. It doesn’t happen automatically.

      If you worked with machinery, you’d change out of your work clothes and shower to get the oil and dirt off. You can develop rituals or systems to “take off” the day’s stress, too.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      This is fairly normal in a human service environment. And it’s one of the many reasons I got out after working in it for many years. I found a lot of emotional yo-yoing and a lot of fatigue. So yes, watching the color drain out of your coworkers faces can really rattle a person. Sometimes it seemed harder on those around me than it was for me to handle these situations. The imagination is very powerful, people can take another person’s story and be terrorized by it. So people who were just hearing about what went on were in worse shape than those who dealt with the situation.

      Decide how long you can do this and what your plan is to move on.

  42. Danae*

    So I interviewed almost a month ago for a permanent job. Word is that I should be expecting an offer…but I’ve heard nothing from the recruiter. At all.

    This job would require me to relocate pretty significantly, and I’ve been anxious for the whole last month about the possibility—I don’t want to do much to get settled in my current apartment (I moved recently, before I knew that this job was a possibility) if I’m just going to be packing everything up again in a few weeks!

    I know I can’t do anything to hurry things along, and from all reports a month or two of radio silence between interview and offer is normal here. It’s just really anxiety provoking to not know!

  43. Nita*

    Question about setting up a GMail out-of-office message for a long leave… I’ve read up on how these work, and apparently GMail will send the message to the same person only once in four days, which sounds great for short vacations. For a leave of several months, though, I imagine anyone who tries to keep me in the loop about my projects will be bombarded by multiple messages. It seems a little over the top. Should I maybe turn on the message for the first month, and then turn it off? At that point, anyone I communicate with a lot will already know I’m out – and as for others, I’m planning to respond to them myself and point them to whoever can help them. If there’s some trick to set the message to only go to my contacts once, though, I’d love to hear about it!

    1. Sleepytime Tea*

      Nope, leave it on. Some people (a lot of people) will forget exactly when you’re coming back and it will be a good thing for them to get that message again (which contains your return date) in case they send you something thinking you’ll be there to handle it and when they don’t get an out of office message they may assume you have returned and think it’s off their plate.

      Outlook sends out of office messages once per day. Even for people who were out on long leaves, I never heard anyone complaining that they got too many auto reply messages during that time. Also, if you’re out for a long period, don’t log in and respond to people directing them to who to contact! That’s what your out of office message is for and if you’re on leave you SHOULD NOT BE WORKING, even if it’s just logging in and reading/redirecting e-mails. Depending on your status (exempt/non-exempt) and things like that, logging into work could be an issue. In your message, you put the dates you’re going to be out, and who to contact for different things. “If you need help with x, please contact Barry. If you need help with y, please contact Georgina. For all else, reach out to Stephan.”

    2. Seeking Second Childhood*

      If Gmail is a company-managed account, ask your IT department if it gets deactivated while you’re on leave. Our company does that, and incoming emails do not get saved. That’s been a problem for some departments–we now recommend the out of office message specify that emails should be resent to SoAndSo because this account is not monitored or archived.

  44. AnonEmu*

    Update – boss didn’t take me giving my 2 weeks notice well, but since I CCed HR on my resignation, that seems to have taken some of the teeth out of her response. She hasn’t said anything to me directly, which is fine by me. I had my surgery (yay!) and I am recovering fine. One more week till I am gone, and I have 2 possibly 3 offers on the table already!

    THANK YOU SO MUCH all the commenters here who encouraged me to get out.

  45. T3k*

    What, if anything, can one do if they’re painted with the same brush as a fired employee?

    Not to get into specifics, but I loved my last job but my contract wasn’t extended. Several months later I heard my boss there had “parted ways” (basically in their terms, was fired). I had a feeling this put them off on hiring me again because I worked under the fired employee and I talke to someone still there that insinuated this recently.

    Now I don’t know why he was fired (he was a nice boss so I’m guessing it was goal related) but is there anything I can do to salvage myself in this? I’d still love to return and work for that company again.

    1. T3k*

      I forgot to note, I was in a very junior entry position and this was my first job within a very, hard to get into, industry.

    2. ThankYouRoman*

      Sometimes nice bosses are nice to a fault. How many reports did he have? If he had a few and let people coast or wasn’t supervising well, they call his judgment into consideration. In that way, prior employees are tarnished by his lackadaisical behavior. Are his goals tied to his reports staying caught up? See how it can all feed into each other?

      I would not try to push too much. Except letting them know you’re interested in returning when there are openings. But don’t start bringing to light you know you’re tied to him. That’s presumptuous and backs people into corners,causing more harm than good.

      1. T3k*

        Well, I was his only direct report (it’s hard to explain it, but basically while he oversaw X team of 10 or so people to keep them on track but they directly reported to Y leader, he basically just made sure they were staying on track).

        But yeah, I did get the feeling his ideas conflicted with the company’s (company has a lot of perks but has the mentality of “we don’t care if you stay late, just get the job done” while my boss was “it’s 8pm, go home!” it was definitely not your 8-5 job setting).

        But yeah, I’ll just continue what I’ve been doing then thanks :) (basically just continue applying for positions there that fit, don’t mentioned ties to him).

    3. Marthooh*

      The word “insinuated” is making me suspicious. Is the person you talked with really in a position to know who’s on the “Do Not Hire” list? Some people like to pretend to be knowledgeable, and present a guess as if it were a certainty.

      If you know anyone in management or HR there, you can try telling them that you’re interested in working there again and asking what they think your chances would be. Realistically, though, you’ll probably never know for sure if the company holds your ex-boss against you, unless they do hire you back (meaning they don’t).

  46. anon report*

    I’m wondering what the commentariat would do in this situation. At my office, I have a… aunt boss (level with my boss but not over me). She doesn’t seem to like me much and she HATES my boss.

    Usually I can just ignore her since our work doesn’t overlap much. However, I recently managed an intern who emailed her a form alert we were sending to everyone who fit certain criteria. She wrote back an email telling him his email alert was unnecessary and not to bother her. He didn’t seem bothered by her response – I knew about it only because I asked him to forward all responses to me – so I didn’t address it with her. But I’m kind of wondering what I should have done if he had minded. Any advice?

    1. inoffensive nickname*

      I would ignore it either way. Even if you think she’s trying to get a reaction, ignore it, but file it away in your CYA file.

    3. Friday afternoon fever*

      I managed interns under a boss like that. When he did something mean or inappropriate, I would quietly pull the intern aside later to say “I’m sorry, you shouldn’t be treated this way and this shouldn’t be acceptable behavior at work.” Not ‘I’m sorry’ like I’m taking responsibility, just that I’m acknowledging it sucks and neither of us can do anything about it. I was also trying to GTFO and the behavior was more egregious than a rude email, but I think it’s adaptable to a situation where your intern was reasonably bothered. If you can’t do anything about her behavior, be upfront and honest with your intern and validate their feelings

  47. Nanc*

    A First World Whinge:

    My boss. I like him, I’ve worked for him for 12 years–by far the longest job I’ve ever had–and yet every time there’s a Google doodle he will shout from his office “who’s NAME/what’s THING/where’s PLACE?” Dude–click on the doodle!

    Also–best wishes and good thoughts to all of you AAMers in the Camp Fire area. Poor Paradise.

    1. Auntie Social*

      I had to stop looking at the photos. I live in San Diego and we’ve had our share of fires. That could be any of us.

      1. Nanc*

        I’m in Southern Oregon. I still have my evacuation bag in the car from this summer.

        Stay safe friends.

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Oooh, where do you live? I grew up in Ashland, and my parents and two sisters live in the Medford area now. It would be devastating if the Ashland downtown burned – there is so much history and so many beautiful buildings there.

  48. Anon in Boston*

    A cyclist was hit by a truck and killed in the intersection right in front of my office building this morning and I can’t think about anything else. They haven’t released any names yet and I’m worried it’s someone from my company. I also used to cross that intersection on foot daily when my parking situation was different and it has been wildly dangerous for years. Between this, leftover election stress, the time change, and general family Thanksgiving drama, this week has been horrendous.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Sending you good vibes. I would find it very difficult to go about my day like nothing happened in that situation.

      I hope you are doing something kind for yourself this weekend.

      1. Anon in Boston*

        I cancelled some weekend plans that would have involved 8 hours of driving, made a therapy appointment, and bought a bottle of whiskey, all of which are self-care strategies that I highly recommend to anyone.

        1. kg*

          I am also in Boston and saw this on Twitter this morning. It’s awful to be near something like that and that area is terrifying to walk and bike in. Sending you good vibes.

    3. Rebecca*

      I’m sorry that happened, it’s tough to see things like that. My commute back and forth to work is partly on a 4 lane highway we locals call “the gauntlet”, as in running the gauntlet, and there are frequent accidents, sometimes fatalities, and I have seen awful things. I am just thankful every day when I get here and when I arrive home that I’m safe. Sending good thoughts your way.

    4. Overeducated*

      I’m so sorry to hear this. I’m a bike commuter, there have been several cyclist fatalities in my city this summer, and it’s just really upsetting how senseless these accidents are. People are just trying to go about their days and shouldn’t be risking their lives. It’s right to be sad and angry.

    5. EddieSherbert*

      That’s awful! I’m sorry. I would also be anxiously awaiting updates. Sending good vibes to you and the cyclist’s family.

      PS your weekend self-care plan sounds like a good plan to me!

    6. kerlin*

      Oh, I just googled this and I used to drive through that intersection ALL the time. How awful, I am so sorry. That is one of my absolute worst fears. Be kind to yourself this weekend. <3

  49. Cressl*

    I got a job offer this week for a job that, if I were desperate, would be really good. But…I’m not desperate. I’m fine to hang out at my dead-end job with not-great boss until I find a new one I like. And that will give me more than a 3% raise when I have a master’s (and my current job doesn’t even require a bachelors, the salary reflects that).

    So I declined, via email. I figured that way I could copy both of the people that were on the phone call and make sure they both know. But I’m wondering if I should also call, since they called initially. I’ve never had to decline a job before so I don’t know the etiquette (and I figured it’s better to have it in writing…).

    jk in writing this comment I got a reply back from one of them, so at least I know they’ve seen it. Unnecessary to call now! But I’m still curious about the etiquette since I might have the opportunity to decline more.

  50. inoffensive nickname*

    Would you rather get a job rejection on a Friday or a Monday? This will be a phone call because I want to encourage her to apply for other positions within our organizations, and the only reason we didn’t hire her was because life threw me a monkey wrench and I ended up hiring someone who is a long term, highly respected employee with 20 years in our pension system who is taking about a 40% pay cut just for a better work/life balance.

    1. Detective Amy Santiago*

      Don’t call.

      Send her an email and include a note that if she is interested in feedback or other positions, you’d be happy to discuss further.

      1. fposte*

        Totally agree. You can say what you said here in an email, and it’s much less of a burden on her, which is what’s important in a rejection.

      2. RabbitRabbit*

        This. Maybe go out of your way to strongly emphasize her otherwise suitability for another role at your institution. Maybe go ahead and forward her CV to others who are hiring there and tell her you are doing that.

        She doesn’t want to have to get excited at your phone call and then try to mask her disappointment/sadness while you’re going on about other openings.

        1. CatCat*

          “Maybe go out of your way to strongly emphasize her otherwise suitability for another role at your institution.”

          A+. The rejection needs to look personalized and not canned and with specifics on the role you’d encourage her to apply for. Heck, if another role opens up that’s not open right now and you think she’d be a great candidate, you can forward that to her in the future.

          I had a kindly rejection once following what had been a strong interview, but I’d had no idea that they’d want me to consider applying for other roles. I’d pretty much just written that place off. Then a couple months later, I got a letter out of the blue from them encouraging me to apply to a specific role. I’d have been more proactive on looking for other opportunities with them if I had known about their level of interest sooner.

      3. Beehoppy*

        Agreed-don’t call-give her some space to manager her reaction privately. You could include a line in the email asking her to call you next week as you would like to discuss future opportunities or something along those lines, but let the call happen when she’s prepared.

        1. inoffensive nickname*

          Ok, here’s the unsaid part. She’s the sister of my former amazing assistant, who recommended her for the job, so I feel like I owe her a phone call. I even ran into her the other day, having lunch with my former assistant (who was promoted to work for my boss, on my recommendation).

          1. Doug Judy*

            Still don’t. I got a “we’re not hiring you” phone call and it was horrible. A very personal email with the offer to talk/meet for coffee would be so much better.

          2. Rose Tyler*

            I think the phone call you owe her is the one where you can give background on the ultimate decision (if HR is ok with that) as well as a promise to consider her for other roles. I would absolutely still email her first. Not getting a job you’d been excited about is a gut punch and it’s a million times better to process it on your own terms.

          3. The Rain In Spain*

            I would send an email and offer to set up a call to discuss other types of roles you think would be a good match, subject to her interest of course. I wouldn’t tell her re the monkey wrench- it sounds like you would’ve hired her but for that situation, and that would be a really crappy thing to hear (and your company’s HR would probably freak out if you voiced that).

          4. Kathleen_A*

            Many people are under the impression that a phone call is…I don’t know, more respectful or something. As though an email is cheating or short-changing the applicant. And I’m sure there are people who would prefer phone call.

            But I’m just as sure that *most* people prefer to get this kind of news (“You’re not getting the job”) via email so that they can process it in private. This might be even more important if you’re also telling her potential good news – she’ll have more time to process that as well.

            As I said, there are no doubt exceptions, but not that many.

          5. Someone Else*

            The second the phone rings, you’d be getting her hopes up and by being on the phone, you’ll be privy to her reaction when she might not want you to be, that’s the issue here. The personal connection won’t make the phone call go over better. If it’s a rejection, even with a “but apply to other things in the future” do it in email.
            To your day of the week question, sooner is always better, because knowing is preferable to not knowing.

          6. Sapphire*

            I cry easily, and during my job search, there were a lot of tears every time I would get a rejection email because it was such a frustrating process and I hated that no one seemed to want me. I could not imagine trying to hold it together while on the phone with someone rejecting me, especially since a phone call generally means a job offer, which stings even more when it’s actually a rejection.

            I don’t think day of the week matters as much as whether you phone or email. If you really feel you owe her a phone call, offer to follow up by phone about the other positions.

    2. DarlaMushrooms*

      I’d want it ASAP so I could regroup immediately. It’s kind of you to call – that is very rare and very appreciated.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Agreed to getting it ASAP! I’d lean towards email though – just so she react naturally in private. Maybe offer to do a followup call if you think that’s beneficial (like you have other positions to talk to her about?

    3. Mouse in the House*

      I’d rather get it on a Monday. I don’t think a call is bad, but you could say most of that in an email. I sent one out saying that although the person wasn’t a good fit for what we were looking for, we hoped that he would stay in touch with us and that there would be opportunities to collaborate in the future. He responded in kind and it seems like we both understand the situation. But, I know women interpret those emails a little differently sometimes so you could do a call.

      1. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

        I got that version of a canned response about 50 times in the last six months. It really loses its believability quickly; at this point I assume that’s the new “chose to go in a different direction” messaging and that they truly could not care less if I applied to another role.

    4. Linzava*

      I’d rather know as soon as possible, phone call or not. If I wanted to live false dreams, I’d buy a lottery ticket ;-)

    5. Cookies?*

      I’d rather get it ASAP.

      Just please don’t email her to set up a call – a recruiter recently did this to me. I knew they were close to making a decision, and she emailed me on a Friday asking if I had time for a call on Monday. Monday came and went, no call. On Tuesday she emailed again asking if I had time that day – again, no call. I finally called her Wednesday morning. By that point I was expecting a rejection, but I would have MUCH preferred an email Friday that they hired someone else, but to please give a call if I wanted feedback (she was very complimentary and I’m glad we spoke, but I’d much prefer the disappointment by email than being strung along).

    6. Overeducated*

      ASAP, via email, and sending rejections after 4 PM on Friday is a cliche (it’s happened to me a lot!).

    7. Sleepytime Tea*

      I would rather get a rejection sooner rather than later. Sure, some people might bum out all weekend for not having gotten a job they wanted, but they also might stress all weekend about not having heard back yet. I would rather know and not stress. Then I can eat some ice cream, start applying for other things, etc. before going back to work on Monday. Especially if you want to call her to explain the situation and encourage her to apply for other positions, which is better news than a flat out rejection, I think it’s better to do it sooner.

    8. Kuododi*

      I don’t believe I have an opinion either way on the “Friday vs Monday” discussion. I will echo what appears to be the consensus and say please let your applicant know as soon as possible for her sake. Probably the kindest, most supportive rejection I ever received following an interview was not long after DH and I had moved to our current place of residence. I had applied for a counselor position at a state run low cost mental health center. The interview was grueling to say the least. (Walked in to see I had a group interview with all 25 members of the treatment team I would have worked with had I been hired. GACK!). When all was sd and done…the director who invited me to interview called me two days later to advise me they had decided to hire a clinician who had recently finished clinical residency with them and was a freshly minted PhD in Clinical Psychology. He reported both he and the team were quite pleased with my clinical and interpersonal skills and I was welcome to keep an eye on postings to reapply at anytime and theyd be delighted to talk with me again. Apparently, that particular Director chose to make personal phone calls when delivering that type of news to people. Personally I found it to be more effective and left me with an overall positive impression about that particular mental health program. It additionally allowed me to take a minute or two, catch my breath and ask questions which started popping up as the conversation progressed. Good luck…and best wishes!!!

  51. Conference Goer*

    Hi AAM fam! I’m going to a conference for the first time as a professional (I’ve been to ones as a student). I’m not directly representing my company– we don’t have a booth or anything. I’m just going for fun. For a relatively young professional, any advice on being a face of the company?

    Here’s what I plan to prepare:
    – clear with my bosses what I can and can’t discuss about our newest projects
    – do a quick review of our attitudes in the industry (eg, we oppose X proposed policy)
    – get swaggy business cards
    – shill for recruiting any students ;)

    1. Clisby Williams*

      It’s been quite a while since I’ve been to industry conferences (I’m retired now), but when I was in IT and attended conferences on my own, I was not “a face of the company” – I was there to learn more about the industry. Of course, I was aware I shouldn’t do anything disreputable, but I was not there to represent the company. So no talking about new projects, no talking about the company’s attitudes in the industry, no recruiting. Business cards sound fine. I’ll be interested to hear what others have to say.

    2. Sabine the Very Mean*

      Are you a female, by chance? The reason I ask is that any bad experience I’ve had as a young female professional has been magnified in conferences. It’s as though men (and I’m sorry to pick on men but I don’t get sexually or otherwise harassed by women–yet) think being away from the office means no one is watching them. I have been sneered and leered at, asked to go up to someone’s hotel room, been handed someone’s trash, been treated as a low-level staffer even though I’ve never worked for the conference hosts, been mansplained to death, and so much more.

      So, go forth and be very confident. Don’t be part of the background. You are here now. You’ve earned it and you belong.

    3. Casper*

      A thing I wish I had done before going to my first conferences was practicing the elevator pitch of what I do and what my company does! Kind of like what you’ll find in AAM interview advice on how to answer “tell me about yourself.” For some reason when talking to new people, the question “so what do you do?” would completely tongue-tie me.

      Also, pack comfy sneakers or flats.

    4. LKW*

      Is anyone else attending the conference from your company? If possible go through the conference agenda from your boss and if you’re by yourself -which sessions would have best impact on your knowledge and goals. If with others – how you want to divide the agenda so that each of you attends separate sessions.
      Talk to your boss about sharing what you learned afterwards. Most conferences make the presentations available post meeting.

      Otherwise, be friendly and enjoy. And don’t drink too much.

    5. Workerbee*

      That’s great that you get to go and not have added pressure of a booth schedule or presentations!

      For being “a” and not “the” face of the company, it sounds like you have the What to Say and Not to Say details in order or on their way to being nailed down. You never know what and when you’ll be asked about what you do and what your company does.

      My advice may piggyback on the others already given:
      –Comfortable shoes, especially if it’s a multi-day conference. Get the kind that allow inserts for extra comfort.
      –Divide and conquer sessions if you are going to with a coworker.
      –If going solo, see if there is a social media or community channel already set up for attendees. You can find buddies that way. A recent giant conference I went to used several different channels, and people were actively making plans to meet up even if they were strangers at that moment. There are always solo conference-goers who don’t really want to be alone in the crowd. Women were also actively saying, “Hey, any other women going?”
      –It depends on your industry, but I’ve found that I don’t give out business cards anymore. I bring them…never reach for them. My conferences have badges that vendors scan with my information, and we conference goers would take pictures of each other’s badges held up to our faces so we’d remember who belonged to which name afterward.
      –Try to find out about after-hour gatherings. Vendors can have the best parties, where by “best” I mean you don’t have to pay for food or drink.
      –Don’t be shy about going up to people in the booth, in the hallway, at a session, etc., and asking them what they do, or what their favorite part of the conference is so far, or what they’re hoping to learn. Sit down at communal lunch tables and talk to the people eating next to you.
      –When you’re back from the conference, compile your notes and impressions, download any decks made available, and do a mini presentation to your boss or department (or entire company). Proves it was worth sending you and helps ensure you get to go the next time and to other such events.

    6. PFC Micah Hayes*

      I’m retired now but my company used to send me to SIGGRAPH occasionally, and it was a blast.

      – If it’s a multi-threaded conference with juicy educational sessions, make an advance plan for what sessions you want to attend, where they are, and 2nd choice sessions. I made an effort to arrive early, but even then some sessions would be full.

      – Leave room in your luggage to bring back swag. Assuming it’s a conference with vendor booths, you’ll likely collect a lot of pamphlets and stuff. And sometimes vendors will hand out some fairly interesting and unique items. Even if you don’t need another pen, there are probably people back at the office who will appreciate your thoughtfulness. And when I say “pen”, what I’m really thinking of is the one year that ILM handed out these beautiful decks of Star Wars-themed playing cards. I snagged five packs and made my boss and four co-workers very, very happy.

      – Nobody even asked me to do it, but I’m an ‘enthusiast’, so I took notes of the interesting sessions and posted them to a company-internal blog.

      – Someone mentioned attending vendor social events and parties, and yes you should definitely do this. One year in San Diego a company I won’t name rented the USS Midway and threw a big party, complete with a fireworks show off the deck and out over the bay.

      – Someone else mentioned trying to meet up with co-workers, and that’s a great idea, especially if you all typically work remote from each other. But try not to get roped into any “attending the conference as a group” thing. YMMV, but I liked going off and seeing things by myself, at my own pace. Having a planned set of sessions to attend helped a lot: at any given time I could say “hey, I’ve gotta run to a workshop” and politely disconnect from any group I was hanging with.

      1. Workerbee*

        +Infinity on leaving room for swag. Bigger conferences can have so.much.swag. Things you don’t even need but someone back at your office will surely love. If your back can hold out lugging stuff around during the day and then to the airport (unless you can ship it on the company dime–not recommended for your first conference through the company), you’ll find many happy people afterward.

        I also manage to fade out of any coworker group expectations. I feel that you learn less by sticking with only your known pack and doing the exact same things you’d do back at work.

        It’s not always easy at first. You can head off any “but whhyyyy won’t you spend time with us” by saying “I can meet you all at X for a quick drink” but then you absolutely have to go meet up with New Networking Buddies at Y, see you all tomorrow! — or arrange for quick drive-bys when in transit from Session A to Session B.

    7. Girl friday*

      I love conferences, and have a knack for somehow rubbing elbows with lots of people and good positions in the field. My rules are always: look better than you think you need to, plan to do things alone – explore the city Thursday and Friday night. try to meet people those nights to spend time with. Saturday night plan a group thing with people from your company or your city. Don’t say that you officially represent anything or even imply it. Keep good notes and network with people that you meet. Don’t rely on Facebook or a LinkedIn, and don’t buy into the Doctor Seuss, popular Movie Mania that seems to grip women when they travel in groups. So unfortunate that that stereotype generally does show up at conferences.
      If you’re traveling alone, I still would recommend eating and going out with people from your city on Saturday night. You’ll meet some, and it makes conversation so much easier when you have a lot in common.

    8. Kuododi*

      I don’t know your age or general “enthusiasm” level for finding someone to hang with after hours and go do some drinking. I would strongly recommend you keep a tight leash on any of those impulses while you are at the conference. (Speaking from former colleagues past experiences as well as some of the stories which pop up here on AAM on occasion.). You did say you were not going to attend the event as an official “face of…”. That being the case, these conferences are like fishbowls and a person’s behavior both positive and negative will inevitably be associated with your employer. That was a long winded way of saying, err on the side of caution, go easy on the alcohol and do your best to stay rested while there. Try to find time after hours to see at least one thing/eat at one restaurant that is impossible to experience anywhere else in the country. (My personal self care trick while on a business trip.). Safe travels!

  52. A Consultant*

    Looking for advice from small business folks (and accountants) about interviewing/hiring a business accountant for the first time. I have a small consulting practice – just me for now, but growing and thinking about making a hire in 2019. So far, I’ve been doing my own finances and taxes, since it’s all been very straightforward as a solo person, and I’ve liked the process of learning and understanding the financial side of things. But as I grow, start to think about hiring, AND after getting some advice about considering a different taxation structure – it seems much less straightforward and I think I need an actual expert.

    I got referrals to a couple of CPAs locally, and am talking with one on Monday about his services. Any advice about critical questions or details I should be looking to find out? General advice about finding someone and figuring out if they are a good fit for my business? Advice about how to be a good client to the CPA? Or anything else I’m not thinking of! Thanks!

  53. Dips*

    My direct report, a recent hire of 2-3 months and first job out of college asked if he could WFH on Monday. I asked him why, and then OK-ed it, because I want to provide him some flexibility, and the reason to WFH didn’t interfere with his ability to work at all. I’m now second guessing myself. I shouldn’t really have asked why, right? He’s an adult, and a professional, and I should trust him not to take advantage. In my defense, since he is such a newbie, we work pretty closely together and being in person does make that easier. But being remote for 1 day doesn’t really impact it too much. On the other hand, my boss is of the opinion privileges such as WFH should be earned and not just given gratis, and he hasn’t been here long enough to ‘earn’ it. I don’t think I really suscribe to that theory though.
    Thoughts?

      1. Dips*

        Varies by department, location and circumstances. For example, my boss OK-ed me to WFH a couple of days a week immediately following maternity leave, but I’m not in head office, and I felt that after a few months it wasn’t reasonable to keep doing it. My bosses boss is in head office and has to get permission every time she wants to work from home. She isn’t approved for a regular WFH day every week.

    2. Mouse in the House*

      I don’t think it’s wrong to ask why they want to WFH. My bosses asked me; I told them it’s because everyone comes to me with every little problem they have, interrupting about 3/4 of my day, and I never get any work done. I wanted a solid chuck of alone time for that. They told me I couldn’t work from home, but I didn’t think it was weird that they asked why or wanted a justification.

    3. Boo Hoo*

      It’s not PTO It is asking for something that isn’t standard while still being paid and not using vacation. Totally ok to ask why.

    4. WellRed*

      I think you’re fine and that it’s actually weirder that he didn’t offer a reason (the cable guy is coming).

    5. Sleepytime Tea*

      I would prefer not to have my reasons questioned if it’s something that has a standardized type process around it. I think instead of asking him why, you may have been better saying something like “yes, you can work from home, but as long as it falls within our policy which means you can’t be caring for a child, you still have to be logged in from x to y, etc. etc. I know you’re new, so I just wanted to make sure we are on the same page.”

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I think if there’s no reason he could give where you’d say “no, you can’t WFH,” then it’s best to just quickly reiterate the policy like Sleepytime Tea suggests with your approval. I mean, if there are reasons that would result in a no, he could just lie anyway, right?

  54. Toxic waste*

    How do you survive in a mean, toxic workplace until you can get out? There is so much drama, gossip, backbiting, eyc. It’s awful!

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      For me, journaling, getting outside of the office for breaks/lunch, and distancing myself as much as possible from the toxic people helped. I was professional, but cool to those who were mean and nasty and tried hard not to give them ANY fuel to their fire. I kept my personal life really quiet. I wore headphones and listened to my favorite music and found a podcast to listen to while working to keep my spirits up (and also signal-go away I’m working).

    2. Mina*

      I remember reading this book called, “The No Asshole Rule” and the author said something like never let them touch your soul…I thought that was good advice. Go to work, do your best, keep trying to get out..but when you get home remember that it has nothing to do with who you are as a person or what your life is really about. Personally it helped me to start meditating and join groups outside of work – it not only increased my happiness but help remind me of all the kind, decent people out there. But it IS a really hard situation to be in. You just want to do whatever you can not to internalize it until you find a more worthy workplace to give your energy to.

    3. Catz*

      Sorry this is happening.
      YMMV but I’ve found it helpful to just listen but never participate in anything that smacks of gossip or drama. Just stare and maybe toss in a couple of Hmmmm’s and oh really’s? The other person will wander off or usually I mention I was in the middle of something an scoot off. Or I just say I can’t cause of work task and scoot off out of range. Eventually they give up.
      It also helps to remember every second of every day that you’re just there for the paycheck and to do the very best with each task no matter what. No one can take that away from you.
      Practically I decided to invest in myself an began taking night classes at a community college, it’s my reward to myself for hanging tough all week at work. Plus it gets me into a much more normal non-toxic setting with reasonable nice people! It also will lead to me being able to leave awful job much sooner with confidence.
      Don’t be discouraged!!! Things can change!!

    4. A-No*

      Have a routine on your way home that lets you decompress and leave everything outside you front door – do not take this home with you or it will drive you crazy.

      Every time you start thinking about it and getting wound up – stop yourself and distract yourself. I used to work for a company where active sabotage was literally okay and that’s the only thing I could do. I have to deal with it at work but there was no way it was going to ruin my night/weekend too.

    5. LKW*

      I know this wouldn’t work for everyone but red lipstick. In my most toxic workplaces red lipstick was my shield. It is a severe look and for me and my resting bitch face just says “Back the Eff Off…Now”

      1. Kat in VA*

        That’s hilarious – my commute is long (1:20 to 1:30 each way) and fraught with terror (hello, northern Virginia driving). One of the ways I deal with it, to my husband’s endless amusement, is The Battle Lipstick™.

        I wear bright red lipstick (MAC Ruby Woo or Russian Red) on the drive to and from work – it’s too much hassle to keep touching it up during the day, but when I get in the car, The Battle Lipstick gets applied. It makes me feel bad ass to wear it and is part of the “Here comes the godawful commute” routine!

    6. School Inclusion Specialist*

      Me, last year.

      Turn into an anthropologist. Observe the dynamics as if you were an outsider. It will help you name them and heal faster post-toxic work place.

      For example, I had an assistant principal who would never own mistakes. She’d just pretend she didn’t know something because she was “never told”. Her favorite move was to throw staff members under the bus because they never told her something. So, when she’d come to staff meetings, I’d listen to what she was saying so I could try to predict how she would use that interaction to blame me or another staff member for something. It became a game. Especially once I started documenting all of our conversations so I could call her out. Never had to, but it was a relief to get some power back. And this process is helping me recover from the toxicity more quickly in the new job. Because I identified the dysfunctional areas at old job, when I something feels like a repeat of old job’s toxicity, I can name it and better understand my anxiety. (For example, at old job, they would always schedule meetings at the end of the day when they were going to tell you something horrible. New supervisor scheduled our first check in for the last period of the day on a Friday. I spent the entire day thinking he was going to fire me until I realized that I was having a panic attack because of old job. While I didn’t fully calm down, I was in a much better place.)

    7. Emily S.*

      Exercise can be great. Bonus points if it can involve spending time outside. I find that very calming and good for de-stressing. Even just a brisk 20-minute walk – and I recommend no headphones. Listen to the birds, or the wind in the trees. It’s refreshing.

      I always enjoy reading and watching movies/tv (during hours off, of course!) to mentally escape.

      Also, practice your hobbies — that can be a really fun and healthy way to spend time, and have a positive identity outside work. You might consider volunteering, as well.

  55. Penelope*

    Sorry to keep bringing my misery here (brief: contract ending, anxiety going into overdrive), I don’t know where else to go. These feelings come in cycles. I could get to a good frame of mind one day and then wake up the next in a state of panic, and I don’t know how to get back to the good space.

    So I’ve started submitting applications, but these things always take time. I find myself either feeling unmotivated when applying for jobs I’m not particularly interested in, or feeling terrified applying for jobs I actually do want because I’m so scared of disappointment. Yes, I know we miss all the shots we don’t take, but that doesn’t mean taking the shot isn’t terrifying.

    I’m just feeling so rejected right now. My current manager keeps reassuring me I did a good job, she was impressed with my work and it was just a matter of budget…but I still feel so dejected and worthless.

    This job was something of a career change for me, I moved a long way from home to get a shot at this career, and I knew I was taking a risk when I made the decision to do it. I think the thing that’s hitting me the hardest is that I’d spent the last year thinking the risk I took was worth it, that I’d actually achieved something. Now it feels like it was all just an illusion. Nothing feels real.

    Maybe some day I’ll look back on this period in my life and think it was silly to get so worked up over this, but right now, I don’t even know how I’m going to get through this.

    1. fposte*

      I’m sorry, Penelope; that seems really hard. I think transitions are generally tough for everybody, but this sounds like it’s hitting you in some sore places. Is counseling worth considering to get you through this?

      1. Penelope*

        There are definitely other issues at play, it’s been a long time since I’ve been really ‘happy’ and I think this was just the final blow. For a long time now whenever I was feeling down about other aspects of my life, I would remind myself how lucky I am to have this job, so now it’s like my crutch has suddenly being snatched away.

        I don’t have time at the moment to get into counselling. I’m most likely going to have to move soon (if I can’t secure a local job) so won’t be able to build any sort of relationship with a therapist. When things have calmed down I plan to seek out therapy so I won’t be knocked down as hard if I have to face similar setbacks in the future.

    2. DarlaMushrooms*

      It’s totally normal for you to feel awful right now. You’re not weak or over-reacting. Job loss is terrifying, failure (or perceived failure) is devastating. Unemployment is down, but the precarious nature of today’s work and the demanding, impersonal way we have to apply for jobs is really demoralizing for workers. I’m also job searching and I go through the same cycles of blind terror as you do.

  56. DefinitelyAnon*

    For anyone who’s left a field entirely (particularly one that requires years of education/training to get into) – what made you decide to leave? I’m considering this move myself, but want to make sure I’m doing it for the right reasons.

    1. Nita*

      If I ever leave, it will be either to pursue something I’ve wanted to do for years (I’ve got a couple ideas in mind), or for something that’s easier to do part-time. I love my job, but I take it home with me a lot, and it takes up a lot of mental space.

      1. Kuododi*

        A slight detour… I had to jump in for a minute and tell you how much I adore your screen name. I have many warm memories of evenings with my Dad at the kitchen table in the house where I grew up. We would talk about everything imaginable, snack on teacakes and drink Coca-Colas. (Good stuff!!!). Thanks for a lovely moment from my younger years. ;). Blessings!!!

    3. Slartibartfast*

      Health, mental and physical. I was taking extra medication just to recover from the day. I had to go.

  57. DarlaMushrooms*

    I’m applying for jobs that require some element of graphic design. I keep seeing that if your work is digital (I do motion graphics and web stuff) you should bring an ipad or laptop with you to interviews. I’m flat broke – like, so broke I have to go to the food bank if I want to eat – and can barely afford bus fare let alone a laptop. Am I going to lose out on work because of this? I don’t even know anybody I could borrow a laptop from. Alison has said previously that you shouldn’t seem “poor” when you interview due to people’s biases, and this has me really worried.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Nah, you don’t need to do that. But you should have an online portfolio that you include on your resume, linkedin profile, etc to showcase your work. As long as you have that, there’s no reason to bring a way to show the interviewer them in the off-chance they want to see your work in the interview. They’ll probably have a laptop with them anyway – if they haven’t looked at what you included in your application prior to the interview, just refer them to your link.

      Good luck with everything! I’m sorry you’re in a rough spot and I hope things get better soon.

      1. DarlaMushrooms*

        Oh phew! I do have an online portfolio and the link is on all of my self-marketing materials (resume, LinkedIn etc.). Thanks very much for the well wishes.

    2. Beehoppy*

      Full disclosure-the only design work I’ve done has been print, but could you send them links to your work in advance of the interview so they would have time to review before you meet? You may also want to check with your local library-some of them lend laptops for outside use, or if not they may have some ideas as to where to check.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I don’t think I’ve said you shouldn’t seem “poor” and I wonder if you misinterpreted something else? Do you remember what post you’re thinking of?

      1. DarlaMushrooms*

        I can’t find it, but I think it was in a post about jewelry or clothing in interviews, and you were acknowledging that it (the bias) was unfortunate. You’re right, you probably didn’t use the term “poor.” You’re much more tactful than I am!

    4. Holly*

      I think you should talk to people within your field and see if there’s a workaround – you could always bring a flashdrive or some sort of print out if you need to, but I don’t know what the industry standard is. I’m assuming you have a desktop computer because you mention your work is digital – you can probably sell that and get a 2-in-1 laptop that is good for graphic design and also converts into a tablet, or something more lightweight so you can work from anywhere.

    5. LKW*

      Slightly off topic but I learned the other day that some libraries loan out briefcases for people doing job searches. See if someone in your area does something similar. Maybe they’d be able to trade services for goods.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Do libraries let laptops out on loan now? Is this a thing?

      Ask at the food bank if they know of any group that could help you get a modest laptop. Also check at second hand clothing stores associated with churches, such as in a church basement. Ask them the same question.

      If no one you know has a spare laptop ask them if THEY know anyone who can spare a laptop.

    8. Moonbeam Malone*

      Late to the party, but if you’re making it to the interview stage, they’ve almost certainly already looked at your online portfolio. Put your portfolio on a flash drive in an easy to access format (movie and pdf files rather than adobe flash, etc.) and keep it in your bag just in case. Sort of the same principle as bringing an extra copy of your resume, even though they’ve almost certainly read it and printed it out for themselves. Just treat it as normal if it comes up and it shouldn’t raise any eyebrows.

  58. No name*

    Found out that the exec in my department who screamed at a woman underling was indeed fired. Good. He’d already driven off one of his female direct reports by treating her like crap, yelling at her, and telling his other direct reports to not talk to her. He had other reports to HR about how he treated women not in positions of power. Now he’s gone. Thank goodness.

  59. Mouse in the House*

    Anyone have any tricks to running a successful coalition of multiple non-profit groups? I work at a non-profit and help my boss run a coalition, but it’s never really gone very well in terms of participation. I’ve thought of two other coalitions I’ve been in and it seems like the organizing organization does all the work and it’s like pulling teeth to get the other groups to participate. It feels like this is just an unfortunate norm of running these things. Have you ever been in a truly collaborative, successful coalition, and if so, what made it tick?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      My career has involved a lot of this. Typically the participating orgs need to have a clear, well articulated reason why being in the coalition is a win for them – like, “we save on having to run our own intake program because we have a coordinated intake through this collaborative, which saves us ten grand a year” or, “we are able to participate in group insurance with the coalition which means we don’t need to have our own HR person.” Ideally, the coalition has its own grantwriter and the members of the coalition get to use the grant money. Also, how did the “backbone” organization get selected … did it appoint itself and then try to drum up everybody else’s participation?

      1. Mouse in the House*

        Hmm, that’s a good point. We used to get grant money to run the coalition but we used it to pay salaries internally. If grant money was contingent on organizations producing XYZ result, that might help incentivize them to participate in the work! Thanks for the advice! And yes, my organization created the coalition and, as you said, tried to drum up other participation.

        1. zora*

          I second money. When I was a program staffer, a local foundation thought we needed more coalition work on a specific area, and they paid 5 organizations in grant money to take part. Multiple staffers were able to participate at a high level because our time was actually paid for so it was worth it.

          I know that’s not an option all the time, but you have to think about how resources are so tight at most nonprofits, so you have to make up for that somehow.

    2. Anon From Here*

      That’s kind of a huge question … but the last time I was involved in a coalition it went something like this. There was a major event happening in my city where we needed to coordinate the response of three legal rights organizations. The event itself was time-limited. We figured out which org would handle which aspect of the response. It turned out that it all kind of naturally fell out that we could “cabin” each group into its specific work. So, like, all the orgs had preparation work, but one in particular had training work; two of the orgs had event-days work, but one was more on-the-ground than the other; and only one group really had post-event work. But even when more than one org was working on the same day, the tasks were very different and nobody could really duplicate the efforts of the other. Each group had its own bailiwick — this meant that not only did no one org feel like its toes were being stepped on (or its glory stolen, -roll eyes-), but also each org had its own work to do. No single org was doing all the work.

      Since the event was time-limited, it was not a long-term coalition. That helped us avoid a lot of disadvantages that come with longer-term relationships: personality conflicts, changes in circumstances that could lead to changes in scope, all that kind of stuff.

      If your problem is mostly one of lack of participation by some participants, then maybe they see some of the work as duplicative — why bother spending our program money doing X when Organization Y will do it anyway?

      1. Mouse in the House*

        Yes, unfortunately ours is a long-standing coalition and we often try to set common goals/deliverables to achieve… we’d like their support in amplifying the messaging we have, since more orgs. saying the same thing is more effective, but maybe they do think our org has the messaging “in the bag” and that’s why they’re not helping out? Hmm. Thanks for the insight.

    3. SL #2*

      My organization has been part of so many of these coalitions, and we also have created some/been funded to create some before. Really, it just depends on the people you get involved for these initiatives. A great program manager. We get invited back to these industry coalitions so often because our executive director has a sterling reputation for being reasonable, practical, and willing to pull her weight, and our entire staff benefits from it. “I work at XYXY Organization with CJ Cregg” has opened more doors for me than I can count. And on the flip side, I get very excited when I hear that ABC Organization is sending Sam Seaborn as their representative for this work because I know he’s an excellent partner, but less excited when I hear that Jed Bartlett’s on the project too.

      In terms of practical advice that you can actually use on your end, I would say that you need a coalition check-in call once every 4-6 weeks. I know facilitating these can be like pulling teeth, but having a clear agenda (we’re going to cover X topic, and then Y topic, but Z topic can be taken offline if needed) and a strong facilitator for each of these calls is super-important in order to rein in the different personalities. It’s a struggle to get people involved, it always is, but especially at non-profits, money helps. Is there funding attached to participating in these coalitions? If there is, it might be time to really emphasize that to both your coalition partners and your funder. And make sure that there aren’t organizations in the coalition who are duplicating efforts. The best coalition I was ever part of involved 4 partners (us included) doing intertwined, but not overlapping work, the funder was funding each of us individually as part of an overarching project, and each of the program managers were committed to the work.

      1. Mouse in the House*

        We do have monthly calls… but those are the ones that are like pulling teeth to get anyone to say anything at! Usually my boss keeps a running monologue and I know he doesn’t want to do that, and there are always very pregnant pauses as he asks for feedback but doesn’t get any. Do you think larger or smaller coalitions are better? This one has about eight different people, although only four will show up at any given time. :/

        1. SL #2*

          I think there’s definitely a sweet spot; 8 people is a loooot to have on a call, but would having a more defined agenda, prepped in advance and distributed to everyone, help increase participation? Or even forcing a round-robin type of agenda, where each month someone from a different org has to speak up and provide updates? They can’t get upset about it if they’re forewarned about needing to provide an update during the call, because it’d be their own fault if they came in unprepared and sounding like a fool in front of their colleagues.

          1. zora*

            If no one has anything to contribute on the calls, it’s the calls that are the problem, not the people.

            There should always be a strategic reason for a call/meeting, and “updating each other” is not a strategic reason. That could be done by emails.

            You need to decide what the reason is for these calls, make sure you actually still need them, and couldn’t do it with emails, and then have a defined agenda where there’s actually a reason for people’s participation. If there is a good reason, people will have something to say. They are probably frustrated that you want them to give up time for a phone call where they aren’t really needed.

            When I ran a coalition made up of paid staffers for the organizations, it was because our organization provided education and action plans on specific issues. There was something members would get out of the call, and there were parts where we were getting their ideas of what we should do and what they needed for their organization to be able to participate.

            It sounds like your coalition as whole needs to decide if it still has a strategic reason for existing, and establishing exactly what the members are gaining from it. Or maybe you need to transition to being more of a resource center instead of a coalition. Or some other different structure that gives the members what benefits them without requiring more work from them than they are getting out of it.

    4. Non-Profit Person*

      One resource I’ve found useful for thinking about this draws from the Wilder Institute’s research on multi-organization collaborations and what makes it work. I’m not sure if I can post a link, so you can google it. The book is “Collaboration: What Makes it Work,” and their website has a lot of free tools/summaries of some of the ideas.

      What I found useful was that they identified a bunch of factors that impact whether it’s a good collaboration – from communication to sharing a stake in the outcome to having the right people involved to having enough resources devoted to it. It made a lot of sense to me. And when I looked at less-functional collaborations I’d been part of, I could see all of the things that weren’t even being addressed. And when I was in more functional ones, we were actually hitting on far more of the factors on the list.

      1. Mouse in the House*

        Thank you for the book recommendation! I’ve been struggling with this issue and this particular coalition for years… and yes, partly it’s about the specific person who is/isn’t engaged. It’s frustrating, though, because we’re always asking these groups what they’re working on and how our organization can plug into that… but for whatever reason, they don’t feel like identifying ways to collaborate. I digress–I’ll take a look at the book and see what I can learn from it!

        1. Non-Profit Person*

          One of the tools is a collaboration assessment survey that you send out to members of the coalition. It (plus some open-ended questions) can be useful for sussing out what might be underlying why a partner doesn’t feel invested or is behaving the way they are. We actually used it once in a group I was in where things were mostly working, but there was some tension and passive-aggressiveness starting to emerge. The semi-anonymity of the survey seemed to make people much more direct, and it surfaced a very specific issue that multiple people had about one partner, and how that partner was starting to feel the isolation. We started to see the cause of the problems, not just the symptoms. Good luck!

      2. Southern Ladybug*

        Yes. I also like Coalitions Work and Fran Butterfoss’s book. I’ve linked the tools and resources page of their website in my user name. It has links to lots of free information you may find helpful.

        1. Mouse in the House*

          Hi, I’m just seeing your reply now, but I wanted to say thank you for the links – I will check them out and take a look!

  60. OlympiasEpiriot*

    Last weekend the offices’ carpets were steam cleaned. We all had to remove everything from the floors of our cubicles, put name tags on any chairs we have and not come in for the whole weekend. Given how busy I have been, I still haven’t fully put my cubicle back together. I didn’t do the most organized lifting last week due to overload of my schedule and I have to cull and sort as I’m putting things back (as well as wipe things down as they became exposed during the stripping of my workspace).

    I’m a little frustrated with it.

    And the carpets don’t even seem that much cleaner.

  61. CommanderBanana*

    Nothing major but I am competing in a holiday bake-off today. Send me good vibes – trying to defend my title from last year!

    3. Emily S.*

      Good luck! Let us know what your entry is.
      I am trying to decide what to make for mine. Right now leaning toward Deb Perelman’s Bake-Sale-Winning-est Oat Bars, maybe. But I might go with brownies.

  62. Lil Fidget*

    Today I’m surprised to realize that I’m really coming to enjoy a new job that I thought was a mistake. I’ve been here four months now and thought this was a short stop-over on my way to something else, but as I gain experience I’m enjoying this type of work more than I thought. Just goes to show you how your perceptions can change over time!

    1. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Very good news– I hope your perspective keeps seeing new & interesting things there!

  63. Coughing my head off*

    I work in SF Bay Area in CA. Currently there are raging fires and the air is thick with smoke. People are wearing masks, covering their face etc. My car has a thick layer of soot on it. The air quality index is currently at unhealthy. At what point would it be okay to call in sick to work because the air quality is un-breathable?! When I was in my apartment I didn’t even realize how bad it currently was because I had all the windows closed and my air purifier on. As soon as I stepped out to an apocolyptic looking hell I started coughing insanely with tears streaming. One of my coworkers is pregnant and I’m also pondering if any of this is even safe for her. My office circulates air from outside. I currently feel like I’m sitting in a bbq pit. Seriously, at what point would a job tell workers to go home? This has happened before and things are business as usual even when the air quality index reached purple which is extremely unhealthy.

    1. Coughing my head off*

      Update: I am now wearing an industrial strength gas mask at my desk.
      Next step: goggles.

    2. OlympiasEpiriot*

      OSHA has indoor air quality standards. So does California. I’ve put a link to the CA law in my username. In a nutshell,, if you have to wear a respirator in your office, I think everyone should leave.

    3. Mina*

      Bay Area here too, and they are sending out email “guidelines” like avoiding strenuous activity outside but not sending people home either…does seem unfair especially if you have asthma, allergies, etc.

    4. OperaArt*

      Another SF Bay Area person here, the East Bay. Our air quality is officially at Unhealthy right now.
      Do what you have to, to preserve your health.

    6. CAA*

      You job is probably not going to tell everyone to go home, because for many people the air will be equally bad wherever they are. However, you should deal with your own health situation. If you are having trouble at the office and would be better off at home, then it’s fine to tell your supervisor now that you are unable to keep working and need to go home sick.

      I went through this in So Cal a few years ago, although it was a bit different because I had employees who were in the path of the fire. In our case, the office air was actually better than most people’s homes, since we had air conditioning in the office and many people don’t have AC at home here. I just told my team to work wherever it was most comfortable and if anyone had to evacuate to please let me know after they were safe.

    7. Alisanora*

      I’m working in Palo Alto and the smoke is pretty bad here too, even further south. I think if you’re coughing so intensely a reasonable employer wouldn’t fault you for needing to go home, but you’re the best judge of whether that would go over well.

    8. Friday*

      North bay here and the schools in my county all decided to close, so the decision was made for me and my parent coworkers. I worked from home as best I could since it’s a busy time for my dept.

  64. Event planner*

    Another holiday party topic… I run a holiday party for a large grad program (students, faculty, and alumni) and even though it’s a Catholic institution, I try very hard to keep it away from Christmas (despite some pushback from other staff). I’ve been thinking about this since last week’s thread: Is limited evergreenery (NOT trees or wreaths, just used in centerpieces/occasional boughs) Christmas-y? I saw several people suggest as much but can’t tell if that’s a widespread feeling or just when it’s paired with red and/or strung in a Deck-the-Halls-style garland. I’d like to go with a navy and dark green woodsy kind of vibe (think “LL Bean winter catalogue, but fancy”), but I can use something like eucalyptus for greenery instead if need be.

    Also, I’d love to hear any great truly secular holiday party decor people have seen! We did white and silver last year, but I like to change it up from year to year.

    1. MsManager*

      I think using greenery as you describe wouldn’t be Christmassy. I went to a party with a “ski lodge” sort of decor, I don’t know if it was truly great…there were a lot of pinecones and a lot of plaid!

    2. Mouse in the House*

      These were friends’ parties but I’ve seen “Ugly Holiday Sweater” theme and also “flannel/plaid theme,” which I thought was nice since it was unusual but still appropriate!

      1. Event planner*

        Thanks for the reminder! That’s a really good point. (Shame on me for forgetting, since my mom is one of those people!)

    4. Corky's Wife Bonnie*

      One holiday party I went to just focused on winter. There was a snow machine as you walked in (seriously I think it was meant for indoor use because it didn’t make the floor slippery or make anyone damp). The tables were a sparkly blue and white combination and the centerpieces were a cylinder glass vase with those tiny wired lights inside and there were pinecones and sparkly decorations around the vases. They had blue & white tea lights around as well. It is too hard to explain all the details but it looked very cool and festive.

    5. chi type*

      I asked a similar question on the thread about “secular” Christmas parties the other day and didn’t come up with much. The best suggestions were snowflakes and blue and silver colors but unfortunately I think almost anything winter-y kinda reads Christmas. :(

    6. Girl friday*

      I think that sounds great, a lot of Scottish plaid are green and blue and would go well with your decor. I went with silver and blue one year and was told that was Christmas, so I would stay away from that.

  65. Suspendersarecool*

    I have a creepy coworker. He scares me on a spidey-sense level hasn’t actually done anything but stare at me and try to start an inappropriate conversation once. Basically he acts like an angry loner and seems abnormally interested in me since I spoke to him briefly in an orientation class when we started last year. He’s in a different department with no reason to interact with me, so my plan is to continue ignoring him. Any tips for calming my nerves? Last week he silently stood in the door of my cube section for 2 minutes before walking away and I had to go walk outside for a while because I was too jittery to focus on work.

    1. Tara S.*

      I’m so sorry. Please tell someone at work, your boss or a coworker you’re friendly with. Maybe they can do something/tell someone who can do something about it, but at the very least you should have someone to talk to about this. It’s weird behavior and I think you are right to be freaked out. Don’t deal with it by yourself.

      1. Suspendersarecool*

        I totally would, but he really hasn’t done anything actionable and I’m worried about potentially escalating things. :(

        1. Tara S.*

          I’d argue that silently standing at your cube opening for two minutes is something worth mentioning to people. Even if you don’t think you want to ask anyone to do anything about it right now, being able to confide to someone in your office about what’s going on I think will help with the mental load. Virtual hugs, this is the worst.

          1. VioletDaffodil*

            Plus, you never know if he has done something to others and all these small reports could be adding up.

            If you haven’t read it before, I recommend reading “The Gift of Fear” by Gavin deBecker. It isn’t without its problems, but it could be helpful in dealing with a situation where you are getting a danger signal. Good for you for listening to and trusting your intuition!

        2. irene adler*

          So couch your statement with a comment indicating you just want someone to know what this guy is doing and that you are getting a bad vibe from it. Then say that you don’t want to escalate anything unless he does something more. You just want management to be aware of the one event.

      1. Suspendersarecool*

        Thanks for the advice! The Gift of Fear has really helped me in the past and is why I’m taking this seriously. I’ll say something to a coworker the next time he does something weird and see if they’ve noticed.

    3. LKW*

      You’re allowed to go to HR and say “THIS IS WEIRD”. They may dismiss it, but that’s on them. Otherwise, if you have a co-worker or two that you trust, share this with them and ask for some help with cover. Especially in and out of the building when you’re alone. If you are staying late, do not hesitate to ask Security to walk you to your car. Bring them food. They will work with you.

    4. chi type*

      I (unfortunately) agree with your assessment that he doesn’t done anything actionable (yet) so I think your best course of action is to always be on guard around him or in deserted areas in and around work. Just being aware of your surroundings and wary of this guy will help keep you from falling victim to a lot of the things mentioned in Gift of Fear (forced teaming, negging, etc.). If he ever gets you alone in a room or follows you outside have zero hesitation about getting away and into the presence of others. Don’t worry about being rude, literally run to where other people are if necessary.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Definitely talk to someone. It can be an informal chat, and I would start with your closest coworkers (both in terms of location and acquaintance). The best way to counter this kind of thing is to build a network of people who know what’s up and can help look out for you. That’s what we did with a certain creeper who also didn’t do anything officially actionable. The women who found his chatting to be just a little more off than we were comfortable with talked to each other and we made sure none of us were alone with him. We also talked to the other men in the group, so they knew we were reacting to something specific about this guy and not pulling some arbitrary avoidance behaviors around him. It wasn’t a constant source of conversation, just one or two quick talks, enough to set up an awareness but not make things super-awkward.

      Don’t wait to see if it’ll get creepier, you’re not accusing him of anything, but you are already bothered by his behavior and that is enough to start a conversation about. Think about it this way – if you don’t mention that it bothers you, you’re stuck with hoping your other coworkers will notice that it does or they might just assume you are okay with the attention.

      1. Marthooh*

        I agree — tell somebody you’re worried!

        You say he “hasn’t actually done anything but stare at me and try to start an inappropriate conversation once.” Inappropriate convo + 2 minutes of silent staring + seems angry for no reason = something to worry about.

        1. valentine*

          You might be pleasantly surprised by what’s actionable by someone with power and knowledge about this. You also may not be the only one he’s imprinted on/targeted. Reporting him will at least give you more information as to your options and resources, including people. There was someone in these threads whose van ride share had a creeper and her supervisor and others got him to leave her alone.

  66. CanadianUniversityReader*

    Hi All,
    One of my professors has invited me to a networking lunch with executives for a big bank in a few weeks. I’ve never been to one of these so I’m a little nervous. What should I wear? Should I bring my resume? It will be quite cold in my area by then, so is it okay if I wear winter gear? How does one network at this type of event?

    Sorry, for all the questions at once. I would say that I’m a little nervous.

    1. CommanderBanana*

      I’d wear a suit – if you turn out overdressed you can always take the jacket off. I think it’s okay to wear winter gear! If the lunch has a place to put your coat, do that instead of putting it on the back of your chair so you’re not fighting past it every time you get up.

      I’d bring a resume and some business cards or contact cards if you have them. Couldn’t hurt. Don’t have anything alcoholic at lunch. Networking events can be nerve-wracking; I find I’m calmer if I tell myself beforehand that I’m just there to meet new people and learn about them.

    3. Minerva McGonagall*

      Since you’re meeting with bank execs, I’d err on the side of conservative professional dress. If it’s cold, it’s totally okay to wear your coat, gloves, etc. Bring your resume-they may want it, they may not! But it’s better to have it with you. If you don’t have a portfolio, head to an office supply store or go on Amazon and grab one-get one with a notepad and space for business cards so you can tuck them all in. Networking is all about asking questions. Ask them about their careers, their schooling, how they got to where they are. What advice can they give a person just starting out? What are they looking for in new hires? And be sure to send a thank you note afterwards thanking them for their time and reflecting on the information you gained. You’ll be great!

  67. Swales*

    I need some advice on how to survive an office party that’s happening at 2pm today.

    I work in a department of 5 at a company of about 25, and recently, my department landed a huge new contract and tripled our workload. I’ve been working late M-F as well as about 3 to 8 hours every weekend for months without a true “day off” in ages. I understand that this contract is good for us, it’s bringing in a lot of money and stability, I’m being fairly compensated for my extra time and work, and there’s a plan to train other employees to take on some of this work so I don’t have so much on my plate going forward… but right now, I don’t feel it. I am extremely burnt out. This contract has meant constant exhaustion for me.

    Which brings me to the party. The company recognizes how much my department is doing, and they’ve planned a little celebration this afternoon to congratulate us on the big new contract. I’m feeling distinctly non-celebratory. What’s a polite way to interact at this party? Can I successfully avoid going when my department/company is so small and it’s a party specifically thrown for me? How do I avoid bursting into tears while holding a little paper plate with a chunk of sheet cake on it? Help!

    1. fposte*

      What about going for 10-15 minutes and then bailing? You’re visible for the high fives but then you can go weep over your supermarket frosting on your own.

      Sorry about the burnout–could you take some time off or negotiate some more as a reward?

      2. Swales*

        I stayed the whole time, didn’t cry, but did get a few direct “you look really tired!” comments. And thank you for the concern! I’ve gotten a raise as well as some extra PTO for all my additional work. I can’t exactly *use* any of it until we finish training the new folks, but the good news is our PTO rolls over indefinitely, so I will eventually get to take some time off.

    2. Holly*

      I think you need to keep it together and show up and fake it til you make it. You don’t have to stay the whole time. I am really sorry you’re burned out, but it would be extremely strange if you weren’t there.

  68. ElspethGC*

    I was browsing the open thread as university library procrastination when, overheard behind me:

    “So I was interviewing for that internship, right? And the interviewer asked me ‘What sport would you say best represents this job?’ But I’ve not done the job! So I said table tennis. And he said ‘Why?’ And I just looked at him.”

    The conversationists wandered away from me at that point, but just… Poor guy. I know people here don’t like those questions in the first place, but it seems to be especially cruel to ask them of someone interviewing for an internship. The whole point of the internship is that they’re not entirely 100% sure of what the job involves but want to find out and get a grounding in it, right?

    (Psst, AAMers – what sport best represents *your* job?)

    1. fposte*

      That’s a horrible question on so many levels. Honestly, even with non-internship jobs it’s not like you’d know until you were in it, and some of us know about three sports total anyway.

      Mine would be like martial arts golf; long stretches of quiet precision interspersed with high-action, high-adrenaline activity.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Oh, I can’t resist.

      Quidditch.

      For the legitimate reasons of: can be slow at times, can be super fast and crazy at times, sometimes everything’s fine and then you get a bludger to the face, sometimes you’re way behind and you suddenly catch the snitch and win.

      For the non-legitimate reason of: I had to.

    4. CDM*

      Ironman quicksand triathlon.

      We run, we swim, we bike, we never get anywhere and there’s no end in sight.

    5. Amber Rose*

      That question sucks.

      I’d say my job is… cricket. Because hardly anyone understands what’s going on at any given time but everyone is running around frantically as if they do.

      And I’m honestly not even thinking of real cricket, which is about as logical to me as any sport (ie, not at all), but a version of cricket in a book called Something Rotten where each team had to field three lawyers and some of the rules involved a tea party in the center of the field.

    6. Teapot librarian*

      Swimming. Or, trying to keep from drowning while people throw stuff at us and run us over with boats.

    8. Can't Sit Still*

      Calvinball! Because the rules change day by day and minute by minute sometimes.

      What a terrible question for an intern interview.

    10. EddieSherbert*

      Golf.
      Usually slow, can be repetitive, not-that-interesting to explain to others or watch, but a pleasant enough way to spend your time. Haha.

    11. Libervermis*

      Soccer. Lots of running about, lots of collaborating and well-executed maneuvers that rarely actually achieve a goal, plenty of individual-level drama as part of work, widely available and popular at the amateur level but only a lucky few manage to make a living from it.

    13. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I’m a university fundraiser, so I’d say…. yoga-chess. You have to be extremely flexible and patient while also thinking three moves ahead.

    14. LKW*

      Right now – Karate. Some light sparing, defensive moves and a significant amount of banging my head against boards.

    16. DaBlonde*

      Triathlon, but you don’t know the length of the race until you show up.
      I teach GED Prep for the department of corrections, so I teach all of the subjects and never know how long a student will be in my class.

    17. Piano Girl*

      Gymnastics! How flexible can you be while still meeting all deadlines? Can you transition from one move to another? Can you bend over backwards to keep the boss happy? And how quickly can you do it??

    18. Lalaroo*

      I’d say volleyball! A lot of people try to get things oriented in the right way to hand it off to me, and then I take it and score (ie, do the last bit before submitting for approval). If things aren’t right, I bounce it back til it comes to me in the right way that it can be submitted successfully.

      Please note I only know a tiny bit about volleyball, so I know having the team bounce the ball around to the one person who hits it over the net might not be how it works in real life!

    19. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Is there a sport that involves digging holes and complaining about how badly run the company is?

  69. Blue*

    How do you figure out where the line is between acceptable push-back and obnoxiousness? I started a new job over the summer, so I’m still getting a feel for my boss. The position involves a lot of brainstorming and problem solving, so arguing the merits and pitfalls of an idea is an inherent part of the job, and when I was hired, my boss was very clear that she was looking for someone who’d be comfortable speaking up and pushing back. So far she’s proven open to critique of her ideas and doesn’t take it personally.

    My old boss was similar, but with him, it was always clear to me if we were ever approaching a, “Ok, we’ve discussed this thoroughly and my mind is made up so it’s time to stop,” point. With the new boss, her limits aren’t as easy to read, and I’ve occasionally found myself wondering if I’m pushing too hard or overstepping. I’m sure it’ll get easier to read her over time, but I’m nervous about pissing her off and not realizing it. She can be kind of vicious about (if not to) people who annoy her, so it’s a legitimate concern.

    1. Tara S.*

      I think this is something you can ask her about! Something along the lines of “when I first started here you said you wanted someone comfortable with speaking up and challenging ideas. I think so far we’ve been able to do that pretty well. But sometimes there are just going to be situations where we’ve debated the merits enough and just need to move on. I wanted to check in with you, I haven’t noticed if we’ve gotten to that point before, but how to you feel these discussions have been going?” She might just give you a quick “no, you’ve been fine” and you can respond with “great!” and keep doing as you have. Maybe she’ll give you feedback. Who knows, but I think a quick check in could help.

  70. When is it time to move on?*

    I’m 13 years out of college and I’m at my third employer. With the first two, I stayed way too long until I was totally burnt out and miserable and in danger of being let go. I’m determined not to burn bridges when I leave this job. But how do I know when it’s time to go?
    I was recently promoted to Senior Manager, one step below partner. I’m not sure if I want to be a partner or if I could make partner if I tried. I might want to but some of the politics here are off-putting. My commute is long and my hours are very, very long. And I have a toddler at home. All that said, my coworkers are good people, I have autonomy and flexibility, and I’m enjoying the new challenges that come with my promotion.
    My sense is that now is not the right time to move on. Because I’m not unhappy (I’m very wary of switching to an unknown job because the people at my second job were volatile tyrants) and also because I want to take advantage of leave benefits if and when I have my second child. But obviously, better hours and a shorter commute would be nice.
    Any wisdom would be appreciated.

    1. Colette*

      You can start looking without committing to leaving. If you’ve been there a year, stick around. If you’ve been there 4 years, maybe it’s time to see what’s out there.

    2. ThankYouRoman*

      It’s best to leave when you’re happy because interviews are so much easier when you’re leaving on good terms.

      However you’ve got perfect reasons to move WHEN you want to. “Commute” and “work life balance” are golden.

      Stay aware of openings but unless it pops off the page at you or strums your feelings up, just keep trucking along. That will also help you avoid feeling trapped or unsure how to leave when the time comes that you want to change.

      Leaving isn’t a messy breakup and reasonable places don’t expect you to die there!

  72. should i be worried?*

    I’ve been working at my job for about half a year now. Everyone I’ve worked with has been giving me glowing reviews and I get along with my coworkers. However, when I first started I discovered about a month in that another coworker had been basically the “go-to guy” for the tasks that I now do. He was extremely disgruntled that he was being “replaced”, but the tasks that he was doing had nothing to do with his job responsibilities.

    Every interaction I’ve had with him I can see that’s he’s trying to be pleasant, but I feel a lot of frustration from him directed towards me. It culminated to him sending an email to my boss and CCing me AND my grand-boss where he had remade a project I had done previously where he had made it “better”. My boss told me she took him aside and said to never do that again.

    Anyway, should I be doing anything about this or can I just go about my work and ignore this guy?

    1. Tara S.*

      This is not you’re problem! It sounds like your managers are handling it like they should, thank goodness, so just focus on your work.

    2. SophieChotek*

      If your boss took him aside and told him to not do that again, it seems like the boss sees what is happpening.
      I’d try to be courteous but distant, do your best, and go about your work.
      If this guy keeps on and on, he’ll probably trip himself up again and that should be no reflection on you.
      Just my two cents.

  73. Who me, nervous?*

    I have a final interview next week. The second interview was with the two people to whom the position reports, and I was invited back to meet with the rest of the team and the C-level exec who oversees it. I am well-qualified for the position, truly excited about it, and I’d love to work under the hiring managers – one of whom I know through prior work. Honestly, it feels like a dream job…which has thrown me into serious self-doubt/impostor syndrome.

    Good thoughts, juju, cookies welcome.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Congrats! and good luck on your final interview next week. Hope we hear good things next open thread.

  74. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    Oh my gosh apparently I get a full time job and EVERYONE WANTS TO TALK TO ME NOW. Where were you guys six months ago?!
    Anyway, I’m taking interviews as they come and otherwise working hard and trying to learn as much as I can. And also take advantage of that sweet, sweet paycheck. Savings account, here I come!

  75. Triplestep*

    I posted this last week and I guess it was TL;DR since I got no responses :-/

    Trying to be more brief: For a public sector job application that follows a strict hiring protocol (panel interview, only 10 pre-determined questions) would you ever reach out to the hiring manager if you’d met before?

    I interviewed for a role with this organization, and I believe that one of the reasons I did not get the job is that I was overqualified. The relatively low level of the job in comparison to my skills was acknowledged by both sides once the pre-determined questions were over and I had the floor. I got to explain my reasons for applying, which the hiring manager seemed to feel were valid. She said I got the interview due to my cover letter.

    Now another job is available closer to my level and I applied. I felt I had a good rapport with the hiring manager, so I was thinking of e-mailing and saying essentially this: “I know you can’t engage with me as a candidate this way, but I wanted to let you know that I applied for this other role and if you think I’d be a good fit, you’ll find my application submitted via the appropriate channels.”

    What do people think? Does this show any kind of tone-deafness about the way these things work? That’s what I’m trying to avoid. I am also trying to avoid having an HR person see my application and put it in the “no” pile simply because I acknowledge that I interviewed for this other, lower level role.

    1. fposte*

      I’ll be curious to see what others say, but for a government job and an acquaintanceship that’s only being interviewed before, I wouldn’t. I’d reach out in a case like that only if it’s somebody I’d be likely to talk to anyway.

    2. Holly*

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong about with reaching out to a hiring manager you’ve had a good rapport with generally, but the way you’ve described it it seems awkward. Especially the hedging first line. This person also may not remember your name, but once they see you be “aha!”

    3. CatCat*

      I think it’s fine to reach out to the hiring manager, but you need to reword your message as the tone is odd.

      “Hi Hiring Manager, I enjoyed meeting you and discussing position X back in [whenever that was]. Even though that didn’t work out, I am still very interested in Organization and have applied to position Y, which is more in line with my experience. Take care, Triplestep.”

      That’s it. Your goal here is to let this person you had a good rapport with know your application exists. That’s all you really need to convey. I wouldn’t do it if you had no connection at all, but you do and if you know HR filters the applications out before the manager even gets a look, a short message with the facts is all you really need here.

      1. Triplestep*

        Thanks, I wasn’t going to write it exactly the way I phrased it, but I do think I need to acknowledge that I know she can’t engage with candidates outside the process.

    4. Sleepytime Tea*

      I’m going to disagree with the other comments. Don’t reach out directly. Instead, put in your cover letter than you previously interviewed and take that as an opportunity to describe how what you learned about the organization in that interview made you even more interested in working for them or something like that. You already know that they are actually reading the cover letters (which not every company does) so you are accomplishing your goal of alerting the hiring manager that you are someone you had a previous relationship with while staying within their processes.

      I don’t think an HR person would put you in the “no” pile because you interviewed for something in the past. If they’re interested, they will look up your previous application and such. And frankly, when you submit electronically you’ll already be in their system. Even if you don’t acknowledge your previous interview in your cover letter or something, they will be able to see that you’ve applied previously (assuming they have a decent system).

    5. CheeryO*

      I wouldn’t, honestly. No matter how you word the email, it’s going to seem like you’re trying to get a leg up where there is almost definitely no room for one. I’m sure they will remember you, and the fact that you had good rapport with the hiring manager could end up being a deciding factor if you end up tied with another candidate.

      1. Triplestep*

        I am trying to get a leg up – I want my resume plucked out of the pile. Not sure how we’d know there is no room for that. I mean, sure, she could say “ew, her? yuck no way!” Or she could say “Oh, I remember her – glad she’s still interested! Look another great cover letter!”

  76. Deryn*

    Looking for advice on how to “coach” someone doing tasks they really ought to know by now, without sounding condescending or feeling like I’m baby-talking to an adult?

    I’ve got a team member who continually has issues doing detailed tasks, and that is a whole other can of worms and I’m attempting to deal with it with our supervisor, but in the meantime I’ve been trying to sort of “lead” him to coming to the conclusion on his own, or “coach” him into looking the correct place to find answers. I feel like I’m talking to a pre-schooler when I do it, though! It feels so silly to be asking what feel like rhetorical questions, when I clearly have an easy answer that I could just give him. Here’s a recent example:

    Me [reminding him of procedure on a very common form we use that he ought to know but realistically I know he will have trouble with]: Make sure you remember to put the internal billing number on that label.
    Him: Where?
    Me [thinking of the field that is clearly labeled “Internal Billing Reference”]: Well, where do you think it should go?
    Him: I don’t know.
    Me: Look at the paper. Is there any place that says anything about internal billing?
    Him: No.
    Me: Check again. Make sure you look at all the spaces. Do you see anything?

    I’m really struggling to keep my tone from dipping into either condescension or baby-talk. Part of this is that one of my roles at work is as a “coach” with kids using these sorts of strategies for other behaviors, so that’s what I fall into when I use them in any context. Part of it is that this guy has pretty much become my BEC and I’m ultra self-conscious to keep that concealed. On the other hand, part of me feels like the logical and unavoidable outcome of not being able to reliably complete these tasks is that someone is going to have to hold your hand, which feels like condescension on my end.

    Has anyone got any good stock phrases or tips for navigating this?

    1. Washi*

      Omg I felt frustrated just reading this and deeply sympathize. I agree with you that this level of handholding is a direct result of his incompetence, and there’s not a lot you can do except not worry about being condescending.

      1. Deryn*

        A lot of things are! This summer I actually had a big push myself and other lab members start detailed documentation for our common processes and protocols. I refer to them as the “if Deryn gets hit by a bus” documents, or “new hire training” documents, but in my heart of hearts I know the impetus was solely a selfish desire to be able to re-direct his constant stream of questions.

        In the example above, it wasn’t documented anywhere because… it was a FedEx label. I had to help him put our address and account number on a FedEx label. I only laugh to keep from weeping.

        1. valentine*

          Does he need help or does he enjoy you discussing/doing his tasks? Tell him what outcome you expect (he can fill out the form correctly 90+% of the time) and let him devise his own pathways/reminders.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Long long ago I temped as general office’s admin. The how-to book included copies of blank shipping labels with the fields relevant to this company highlighted.
          Not something you want to have to repeatedly teach a full-time employee, but not insane to put in a training binder.

          My 2 equivalent problemishes co-workers eventually were let go…so this should be a big deal for that person.

    3. Lil Fidget*

      This may be no help, but sometimes I find when I’m having this problem with coworkers, it’s a work-process issue. I know the task well so I’m calling their attention to one specific part, but they may be mentally anticipating each step in order, so they’re very thrown to my “suddenly jumping” to one part. It may be easier to have him fill out the form and then catch him if there’s an error afterwords – he may learn better that way. I might not be explaining this very well but it’s an issue I ran into with new people I just trained.

      1. Deryn*

        I’ve definitely run into that with some of our new hires and students! As I get more and more experience in a supervisory role, I’m getting better about realizing when that’s happening and being cognizant of the fact that I often have a lot more context to rely on that the person I’m talking to.

        The lack of attention to detail is a widespread issue with him, as are some various other issues, and he’s been here for two years, so in this particular case I don’t think that’s what’s going on. Even my super non-confrontational boss has had some meetings with him about it, and although I suspect she’s softening her language quite a bit, that’s a huge win in my book! We’ve talked about shifting his time more to the other team he works with, as that work seems to fit better with his working style, but we can’t do that for a while yet due to being understaffed as a whole. So in the interim, I’m just trying to do the best I can to mitigate it and think of each frustration as a way to train my supervisory muscles.

      2. Alisanora*

        This is good advice. Many people (including me) learn better by doing and being corrected.

        I also think the leading questions method paired with Deryn’s level of frustration will very easily turn into condescension. I’ve had the most success with my tone in these situations when I take everything very literally and don’t dwell on thinking that the other person is stupid or should know better. Just be matter-of-fact.

        You: Make sure to put the internal billing number on the label.
        Him: Where?
        You (stating a fact): Where it says “Internal Billing.”
        Then if he can’t find it, just point it out to him instead of saying, “Make sure you look at all the spaces.” Or if you really want him to find it on his own, say, “Take some time to find it and come back to me when you do.”

        For this guy, repetition might make the process sink in, or the lack of attention to detail might be an unfixable problem. Either way, getting emotionally invested isn’t helpful.

    4. LKW*

      Super frustrating. If I had to do this, and I’ve been in your shoes, the first few times I’d be as patient as you are. The third or fourth time I’d switch my approach.
      1. “We are going to review this. I expect you to have reviewed this process/form/template before the meeting and have any questions prepared.”
      2. No more “What do you think you should do.” instead – “Read the process aloud, what does it say?”
      3. If the meeting isn’t productive – stop it. Put it back on this guy “OK, you need to go back to your desk and look at the form and the process again. You’ve done this x times. You should know this by now. Please go back and review this and prepare a list of questions that you need answered so that you can get this work done properly.”

      People learn by hearing by seeing by doing. Some people find different techniques helpful or are better with listening or doing than seeing. Some people can’t be helped.

    5. Teacake*

      I think you’re being a bit patronising here to be honest. Just tell him to look for the field that relates to internal billing. You don’t need to hold his hand like he’s five.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I have to say, I don’t think I could control any sarcasm if it’s that level of handholding and I can see why you’re at BEC level with him. My approach when my own elementary-aged children do this is to patiently give the obvious answer once and then walk away if they opted not to listen to me or continue to ask questions that could be easily answered by looking at the item in question. Amazingly, almost every time they figure it out on their own. (It does result in meltdowns on occasion…)

        I don’t necessarily recommend this because it’s work and not ungraded homework, though it does cut down on the risk of loss of patience. But maybe have him complete whatever the task is to the best of his ability, without asking you anything, and then bring it to you for double-checking. And reject any first efforts that are less than 50% complete/correct (or whatever threshold makes sense) without providing any feedback, because it will turn into 50 rounds of tiny incremental improvements and “is it done now?”

        If that doesn’t work and these are all basic job skills, he’s just not in the right role at all.

    6. BRR*

      You’re much more patient than I am. My method for watching my tone would be to not go beyond the initial ask.

    7. Grinch*

      I find that my annoyance seeps out when I question their critical thinking, and I hate being on the other side of those questions too (“Where do you think it should go?” Well if it was where I thought it should be I’d have found it!). Instead think about how you would give hints in a puzzle game. Maybe google the Universal Hint system. Those hints use a lot of questions and asking what have you done already. And most importantly they are hints, not reminders, so you save your energy and only chime in when he needs it.

      Him: OK I’m done
      You: Have you included the internal billing number?
      Him: Oh… where do I put that?
      You: Is there a field that mentions “internal billing”?
      Him: I don’t know.
      You: Have you found the [form name]?
      Him: Yeah but it’s not there
      You: Have you checked all the spaces?

      It’s very similar to what you’re doing but hopefully reframing it for yourself will help make it less frustrating.

  77. Jessen*

    It is so weird being at a job where people just, like, get up during the day whenever. I mean, obviously not all the time, but, like, just declaring you’re going to go get lunch now or take a walk around the building is a thing. I’m actually having to schedule pseudo-breaks for myself so I don’t forget to eat!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I remember being so impressed with this when I started my first white collar office job. People could just declare they were going to go get a coffee and then … walk off and do that. In my past hourly shift-type jobs, that was not at A Thing.

      1. Jessen*

        I know. I’m actually having to tell myself “get up and take a break now” because without the scheduled times to get up I just focus on work all day.

    2. Notthemomma*

      There is truly no feeling like when you realize you are allowed to pee when you have to, and not abide by the scheduling software.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        I think all the time about how much crueler we as a society are to low wage employees. Stiff penalties for being even a little late, tight restrictions on breaks or any other personal freedom, much more oversight and intrusion by the supervisors. Not only is the white collar office life a LOT more cushy, but it’s also typically more lucrative AND offers benefits?? Our system is broken.

        1. Alisanora*

          Companies that don’t pay their employees well often don’t value them in other ways, and want to squeeze as much work out of them for as little money as possible. They don’t consider that a well-rested and relaxed employee may be much more productive in the long run (not to mention human decency).

        2. Jessen*

          I flat-out told my direct supervisor at my last job that I didn’t like how upper management was changing things in ways that seemed to imply they thought we weren’t doing our jobs. I’m an adult, I don’t need a babysitter. And if all your senior employees (by call center standards) are telling you that they have too much work to do, adding more rules to prevent people from goofing off is just going to make people mad.

  78. Raven*

    I interviewed for a job earlier today (it went okay) and I was told that there were 57 candidates and only 5 interviewees! Other jobs I’ve applied to this year have said, respectively, that there were 39 candidates and four interviewees (my last job) and 22 candidates and 8 interviewees. Is this relatively normal, to have that big of a disparity between candidates and interviewees?

    2. fposte*

      Yup. Often interviewee numbers don’t really correlate to the pool, and I’d side-eye the place that interviewed 8 candidates out of 22 unless they had several positions open. There may be a higher number for phone screens, but more than five candidates for actual interviews is pushing it, IMHO, no matter how big the pool.

    3. SophieChotek*

      Congrats!
      I would say yes, usually from a wide pool, HR will only interview a small #. They don’t have time to interview tons; usually they can tell from resumes/cover letters who they think are the top % or so. (From what I understand.)

      1. Lil Fidget*

        They also just don’t want to devote that much staff time to interviewing, so they may just pick the first five people who meet the requirements and then stop looking. This is why the process is so opaque from the outside when you’re a jobseeker – you may think you were perfect for a job (and you were) and not even hear a peep.

    4. Hellanon*

      I had an ad up on Indeed this summer that asked for a fairly specific skillset/experience combo and got 140 responses. Of those, I did phone interviews with 8, interviewed 6, and really only wanted (and hired, yay!) one. So yes…

    5. JustaCPA*

      I recently posted an admin job and I had over 400 applicants (I’m guessing because it was a fiarly entry level position and didnt require a college degree but it was an office job). I interviewed 5-6 candidates, tossed 3 immediately, made on offer to one who had just accepted another offer and so went with our number 2 pick who has been FABULOUS.

    6. Alisanora*

      I’m surprised the interviewers are telling you how many candidates applied. Are you asking about it in interviews?

      1. Raven*

        Not for this job – they actually told me straight off the bat, within the first minute or two of our interview call!

        The 39/4 job, I asked at the end of my internship period and they told me. The 22/8 job, I had a long interview initially (and it was so long because I established a really good rapport with the interview and we actually met up separately a few days later in a cafe for a more casual followup), and I felt comfortable enough to ask during the second meeting.

    7. Gumby*

      Yes. Absolutely. We posted a position that garnered ~150 applicants and we’ve interviewed… 5? maybe 6? And this is a position for which the job description required a Ph.D. in a particular field – thus pretty specific. Not even “teapot design” but “ceramic teapot design” levels of specificity. I don’t know if all of the applicants actually had the degree, but I assume that less-restrictive job listings get even more people applying.

      In previous positions I have been privy to all of the applications and there is a depressingly large number of people who apply who *clearly* did not read the job description. Or have any idea what the company did. (I’m looking at you recent-grad whose cover letter to an internet company talked about your desire to get into architecture/construction for some reason.)

  79. Lola*

    I am having issues at work, and I’m worried that I am just too in it to realize what is not okay and what is par for the course.
    The short story is that my manager sucks, and not only is he changing, but he’s changing for the worst. I first took it in stride and used it as an opportunity to take on more tasks, responsibility, and eventually was promoted to deputy on our project. But… each time myself, my manager, and my grandboss work together to right the sinking ship, there’s not much follow through. I’ve been putting out my manager’s fires over and over, which tend to happen right when a major deliverable is due, resulting in late submission and a bad example to those outside of my department. I’m overworked, underpaid, racing towards burn out, and often held responsible for the failures of our team. My manager gives me no direction, no feedback, and every single task I work on is because I initiate it. He does not communicate anything with anyone. My other colleagues and I have tried to right problems, but they never stick because ultimately, our manager is the head of this department. 6 months ago, we got a new Director. She has high expectations and has already given me ‘coaching’ on things that are so not in line with the direction and signals that I have received from grandboss. Most recently, I was hospitalized for an unexpected serious illness and a lot of our department’s work fell to pieces. Now that I am slowly returning to work, the Director is coming to me upset over the state of our work. My manager slips away to all day meetings with various partners, but never with the team. I am hearing from my grandboss to take my time returning to work, to not feel responsible for the things that fell apart, and that I’ve done a wonderful job overall. The way the Director is talking to me leads me to believe that she is unhappy with my performance. I’ve brought up the management challenges many times, even when the Director came on board (but in a much nicer way, ‘I’ve struggled with feeling discouraged during my time in this department’). Now I’m thinking, why isn’t my manager being held accountable for this? Why is it falling on me when I was in the hospital for weeks? Am I in the wrong here? What do I need to change, because clearly the management issues that I have brought up over the past year have not been addressed? And if the thing I need to change is my job… anyone hiring in international development?

    1. Anna Held*

      Yes, I think you need to change your job. This is all issues above you. Take care of your health and take care of your career — you have bad management, so there’s no guarantee this won’t fall on you anyway.

      Best of luck to you!

      1. Lola*

        Thank you for this validation. You are so right about taking care of my career (and of course my health!) — it’s performance evaluation time and my manager has completely disregarded it. I scheduled a meeting with him and he wasn’t prepared, so we rescheduled. Then he just didn’t show up for our second meeting. I scheduled with grandboss for Monday. So begins my job search!

    2. Binky*

      I have no real advice, but this is super not your fault. I’m also not sure if your Grandboss or your Director is more senior. Either way I think I’d go talk with Grandboss about what’s up – she needs to intervene with the Director for you – although the tone will be different depending on their respective seniority.

      I would also do my best to document your work and the lack of communication with your manager, and when the Director comes to you, let her know that you are waiting on responses from him. I’m not thinking of a log, but something more like an “update list” of your current projects with the stages they are in and whatever you need to take next steps, and deadlines. That way you can just forward it to the Director and note what you’re waiting to hear back on.

      Take care of your health, that’s the most important thing.

      1. Lola*

        Thank for the validation :) My Director is above my Grandboss. My Grandboss and I started at the same time, so she’s seen the whole thing and I can speak candidly with her. I scheduled a coaching meeting with her on Monday to talk about this and, if I have the guts, ask flat out if anything is going to change in the management of the department. Good idea on the list of things; I’ll work on that and have it ready for that meeting.

        And yes, my health. The stress of this does not make recovery easy. I am very anxious about work and I want to point out to my superiors that this is not a good environment for me to be productive while I heal. But I’m scared of the ‘If you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen’ type response that I’ve heard from higher ups in the org…

  80. Teapot librarian*

    We haven’t had an episode of General Hoarder in a while. (I had forgotten I was using modified soap opera names for a while!) As I think I mentioned a few weeks ago, I finally prioritized writing a disciplinary notice. The causes were general insubordination (this is no longer an official “cause” per our HR regulations, but it is activity that affects the efficiency of our work), failure to follow instructions and neglect of duty (both for a pattern of minor issues, each which on their own look petty for me to be concerned about), and discriminatory practices for things he’s said that he would not have said were it not for my sex and race. So I write this notice. It’s 6 pages, very detailed, has 22 or so supporting documents. I tell my boss that I’ve done this, the reasons, and so forth, and she says, essentially, “eh, no biggie. I don’t think I’m going to support a suspension. Send me everything to review.” (The way discipline works, a supervisor can’t unilaterally impose discipline; it has to be approved by a higher up.) So now I have to wait for my boss to say go ahead and issue the suspension, and I’ll back you up, or for her to say “no dice. The most you can do is a reprimand.”
    Meanwhile, Hoarder continues to do the things that are noted in the suspension notice (these are things we have talked about repeatedly–it’s not like the suspension notice was going to be the first time that he saw that I’ve noticed him skipping meetings, and not completing assignments in the way that the instructions said to complete them).
    Also meanwhile, my boss appears to have decided that I need to use vacation time to leave early on Fridays to be home in time for the Jewish sabbath. I’ve been working for her for three winters, this is the fourth, and she’s never made me do that before. So I submitted a formal request, but I’m just annoyed. Because both she and her deputy seem to think that when I say “I have more work than I have time for, and I need to sleep” that I am saying “woe is me, I might have to work late one day” not “my brain only has the capacity for 13 hours of work a day.” It feels very much like she doesn’t trust me, in the same way that I don’t trust Hoarder. And I don’t know how to get back in her good graces.

    1. Binky*

      Uh, maybe start looking for a new job?

      Did you discuss disciplining Hoarder with your boss before you got started? Cause I would think it’s way easier to get buy-in at the start then after you’ve gotten to the stage of a formal write-up.

      1. valentine*

        I didn’t realize hoarder was being racist towards you, Teapot librarian. With your supervisor now piling on, do you want to get back into her good graces? Is there no position where people will treat you well? Reasonable people would be helping to shed hoarder.

    2. Kat in VA*

      Wait, wait, wait – your boss has told you that you have to use your PTO to leave early to observe the Sabbath?

      Who is she to tell you that (a) you have to use personal time for religion and (b) decide when/how you observe Sabbath?

      What the heck?

  81. Seashells by Sally*

    Last night I fell down an email rabbit hole that just reminded me how ill-suited I am for my career. 10 years in and I’m surprised I’ve lasted as long or gotten as far as I have. All my bosses have stressed my team player/can do attitude and basic ability to get stuff done while also mentioning my lack of creativity. While I’m resigned to the fact that it’s hard to be creative in a career you’re not excited about, as a perfectionist, it still burns my buttons and embarrasses the %$#@ out of me that I can’t overcome this hurdle. Is it even possible to learn creativity?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      If you’re ten years in, you must not be totally ill suited. Honestly I find being a good all-around performer is harder to come by than Ideas Guy, so at this point I’d just lean into your strengths and remind yourself that you are valuable as you are! (I never learned how to be organized /detail-oriented after all this time and I finally just accept that I’m not a perfect fit for my field either – but I am personable and have initiative and two out of three aren’t bad).

      1. Jess*

        Honestly I find being a good all-around performer is harder to come by than Ideas Guy

        This is very true.

    2. Mina*

      I think it is possible to learn creativity! The bigger question is, do you want to keep with your current career? I work in research, and I like what to do but lament that I’m not very good at coming up with ideas…a book that really helped me is “Creative Confidence” which led me to see myself as someone who CAN be creative rather than someone who sucks at it. But I really wanted to get better. If I didn’t like doing it, then I’d probably be thinking about how to get into something I feel more excited about. The book “Design Your Life” which is along the same lines might help…or if you’re not sure, maybe talking it through with a coach, trusted colleague, etc.

      1. Seashells by Sally*

        Thank you both for the replies! Part of my issue is that my “lack of creativity” was used against me in a previous toxic job (I was literally told I was terrible at everything except being a team player, which they took advantage of). So, I’m constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop in the one I have currently. I know that it’s limited my career growth. (I was promoted last year, but only after my more creative colleague who was promoted over me decided she didn’t want the position — 2nd choice and all that).

        Anyway, the other side of the coin is that I have never liked my career in marketing, but did well enough in the beginning to support myself. And now have spent my adulthood trying to contort myself into the type of person who can do it adequately, which is the bundle of neuroses you see before you. I love doing genealogy research and recently have tried to dip my toe into that pool. But, it’s definitely not a secure job path and full-time opportunities are hard to come by.

  83. MsManager*

    I work alone at a location separate from our main office. This is the first year my company has had this location. While my office is heated, the only bathroom available to me is not. It’s actually located in a separate building, a few feet away.

    When I started this job in May, I didn’t think too much about this setup. The bathroom is really cold, and it’s only November. We don’t live in an area that gets often gets snow, but we do get ice storms. I use the bathroom several times a day.

    I’m thinking of asking my boss if I can work from home on the coldest/stormiest days. My job can easily be done from home, and I’d only miss people wanting to stop by my office, which I assume they would be less likely to do on bad weather days anyway.

    Or should I insist they modify the bathroom so that it’s heated? I don’t know how likely I’d be successful at that.

    1. Colette*

      Does it freeze where you are? Any place with running water needs to be heated or the water will freeze. I’d ask what the plan for heating it is.

      2. MsManager*

        We have had freezes, they are rare. The mens room has been “winterized”, the ladies room has been left open for my use. The plan is to wrap the pipes if a freeze is forecast.

          1. MsManager*

            When I say “winterize” I mean they shut off the water and wrap the pipes. In the case of the women’s room, they are leaving the water on, so I can still use it.

            I’m a property manager and my office is located in the community I manage. The bathroom I use is part of the adjacent pool complex, which is closed in the winter.

            1. JustaCPA*

              If it’s a pool bathroom, chances are it CANT be heated (just thinking of our community pool house, the bathroom are not “closed”)

              I’d push working form home if at all possible.

    2. KR*

      I think it’s fair to insist the bathroom is heated, or at least push for it. If you’re not in there all the time a space heater would be dangerous. Also – ladies sit on the toilet generally and come winter that is going to get very cold on your behind. Not to mention pulling down your pants in cold weather doesn’t sound fun. Changes in building temperature can make wood shift and result in doorways and walls warping. Keeping the building heated, even if minimally, will save long term on repairs.

    3. Ali G*

      At my OldJob the bathrooms at the industrial sites were not heated, so they put electrical space heaters in them during the day – they worked well. Just have to remember to unplug them when you aren’t there.
      You could ask to WFH first, and if that’s not an option, I would insist on a heater.

      1. Emily S.*

        My office breakroom has one of those oil-filled electric heaters, and it has a timer so it can turn on and off automatically, which is pretty nice. It works great.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            The kind I think she’s talking about is purely electric so no CO produced. The oil is inside and circulates.

    4. CDM*

      Space heaters are much safer (and smaller) than they used to be, the risk is minimal, and can be reduced if you chose a model with a thermostat or a timer. Just make sure there’s a GFCI outlet available – which any outlets absolutely should already be with the pool and water exposure.

      I spend time at a rec place with a similar cold bathroom in a trailer, and they run a tiny space heater 24/7 from Oct through April or so for comfort and to prevent frozen pipes. And they are particularly fire-risk-aware because of horses.

    5. valentine*

      Can they make another restroom available to you? If the residences have no public restroom, maybe there is an empty unit. Or it is time to add a restroom to your building, depending on how reasonable it is to ask you to go to the pool building.

  84. NotAnAlc*

    I volunteered for an extra duty at work that would involve some on-call days (24-hour shifts, etc.) and told my manager that I was planning to get involved. The FIRST thing she said was “Are you sure? You know you can’t drink at all on those days, right?” Am I justified in being insulted by this? I have never, ever talked about drinking/hangovers/whatever at work beyond responding to “what did you do this weekend?” with “got drinks with an old friend.” I’m the youngest in my office so I’m extremely paranoid about that sort of thing and don’t drink at office events because I worry about being perceived as a professional. Was this friendly advice or an overstep?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Unless you have come in obviously drunk/hunger-over and incapacitated, personally this feels like over-stepping. Maybe the manager has had some bad experiences in the past with the “youngest” in the office? (That is my charitable reading.) Still, it is unfair to make assumptions about you. I certainly would not read “got a drink with an old friend” as “we got blackout drunk…”

    2. Anon From Here*

      I’d let it drop for now. If you bring it up one your own, you’d only be reminding her of her comment, and you could come across as “protesting too much.” But if she does make that kind of comment again, I’d say something along the lines of, “I’m sorry, I don’t think I take your meaning.”

      Maybe she saw some photos of you on social media? If you haven’t locked down your FB/insta/Twitter/etc., then consider having a project after work tonight.

      1. NotAnAlc*

        This is a good point- my social media is incredibly locked down minus my Twitter because of some public work I’ve done through it, but I’m going to comb through and make sure there’s no mention of booze whatsoever.

        1. Anon From Here*

          Personally, I made myself get into the habit a long time ago to avoid having photos taken of myself when I have a drink in my hand. Birthday party, wedding, New Year’s Eve, professional gathering, whatever. That way, I don’t have to worry to much about how I may look on anyone else’s social media, either … But I’m an outlier in my concern. I had a divorce and custody situation where it would have been very problematic to give Mr. Ex-Anon From Here any “ammunition” about our arrangements. That said, the habit has stuck, and I can’t say I’m unhappy that I can’t find photos of me drinking on the Internet.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I learned that a photo can make you look drunk if youre tired and holding a bottle of root beer. Luckily this was pre-social media!

      2. Tara S.*

        ^ if it’s not a pattern, I’d let it go. They might have had a lot of other people they work with who they know are social drinkers or like to have a drink to unwind at home, and ran into things in the past where people were taken off guard by the no-drinking requirement. Aka it’s probably not about you.

    3. Snubble*

      That… might be projection. You might have a manager who values a drink in the evenings, so it’s the first thing she thinks of when she thinks about the logistics of being on-call. I think you’d be on safe ground just to say, “Oh, that doesn’t bother me, it’s worth it for the overtime,” and smile.
      It’s definitely an overstep but it might not be malicious. It might just be your manager assuming everyone has the same priorities she does.

      2. First Time Caller*

        Agreed, it’s like when an old colleague told me they lived in Kansas during a time of “dry” laws and the most they could get was like 2% beer. I was visibly over-the-top horrified, and I think it took them aback a little.

    4. Lumen*

      What a weird thing for your manager to say. I hope you looked at her like she had grown a second head.

      If you should feel insulted depends a lot on her tone and your relationship outside of this one interaction. Maybe she was trying to make a joke, or be self-deprecating, etc. Or maybe she has a perception of you that isn’t connected to reality, which you can’t necessarily control.

      I’d let it slide this time either way. Unless she makes other comments about you/your drinking.

    5. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

      Hm. The only thing I can think of would be is if those shifts happen over holidays, like New Years, which are well known for people partying. Otherwise, I think it could very well easily be both friendly advice, AND an overstep. Rude!

    6. LCL*

      In my office it would be friendly advice. Going from a normal schedule to the occasional shiftwork can require some huge adjustments to your life, and planning your drinking so you are sober when you get a callout is only the tip of the iceberg.

    7. Blue Eagle*

      My take is that it is not “friendly advice” but more like a reminder in case you either weren’t aware of the policy or forgot it. As a manager it is not my business what my staff does on the weekends that doesn’t impact work and I have no idea if they imbibe or over-imbibe at that time. But you can be sure that I would remind each of them (whether or not they drink at all at work related functions) of the no alcohol restriction for this type of shift.

      1. Not In NYC Any More*

        +1 I’d read it as just a manager making sure someone who hasn’t done that sort of on-call duty before knows exactly what is required. Everything isn’t a judgment.

  85. SophieChotek*

    Am I over-reacting (internally)?

    As I have mentioned before, on weekends I work at a coffee shop.
    First off, I will admit: I did make a mistake.
    A customer pre-ordered some coffee and I made 2 instead of 1.
    I have several “good” reasons why I made 2 instead of 1, but the result is still the same: I misread the order.
    My manager was very very very upset with me and told me off 2x, and was upset that I wasted $3.50 of product.
    I apologized and promised to try to be more careful in the future.

    Anyway, I guess my question is:
    after all this, my manager could not wait to tell the next 2 workers who came in about my mistake; and I heard her go in great detail about how stupid I was to make this mistake
    I heard from another co-workers that she was still telling other co-workers about the “stupid” mistake I made the next day

    So…am I over-reacting to think she is blowing this out of proportion at this point? (I have not said anything to her and am trying to shrug it off, but I admit, it is not making me feel charitable towards her at the moment or inclined to help her out extra.)

    Thanks – and happy weekend (and be careful shoveling if you got snow).

      1. fposte*

        Yup. That’s crappy form. Honestly, even if you’d done something really bad, it’s bad managing for her to leap to telling everybody else that you did it. How does that benefit the store? If there’s a consequence to your error that they need to know about, she can just tell them that matter-of-factly (“There was a pastry mishap so we’re out of pastries early today”), but it doesn’t sound like your error would impact any co-workers. So she’s making two mistakes in overreacting to a small error and making one employee’s error into a drama for everybody.

        On the bright side, I bet your co-workers think she’s a loon.

        1. SophieChotek*

          Hopefully the think she’s loony, or they indulged in schaddenfreude. I know two of the people she told are her “favorites” who can do “no wrong”, so then again…

    2. Myrin*

      That’s completely ridiculous and unnecessarily over-dramatic to the extreme.

      I work in an inn’s kitchen where we also serve coffe, cake, and ice cream in the afternoon, and literally everyone of us has made a mistake like that (and worse ones!) before. It’s not unusual, stupid, or even really bad, it’s just a thing that happens sometimes because people are people and misread or misremember or misunderstand things from time to time.
      I mean, my work is in a small, family-owned thing while it sounds like you’re in more of a chain (?) but the basic “deed” is the literal same and you know what? When that happens, one of us eats/drinks the wrong thing during our break and that’s it.

      Your boss’s reaction would be out of place even if this were a regular occurrence with your work, by the way (although it doesn’t even sound like it is). If you can, I’d recommend to try and shrug it off because she’s clearly being unreasonable.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yep, that’s such a small amount of money that your boss is being a real jerk. I’ve cost employers hundreds of dollars and yet they just shrug because they understand that mistakes happen and it’s the cost of doing business (granted, those were not coffee shops).

        1. valentine*

          Yes, it’s the cost of doing business. And how much money did she waste banging on about it? SophieChotek, I am thinking you’re really good at your job and well-liked, which this person takes exception to and so she seized on your rare mistake.

    3. NeonFireworks*

      Holy cow, this is incredibly minor as an error. And even if it weren’t, bad-mouthing you is not the ethical or effective way of fixing it!

    4. LCL*

      Your manager is blowing this way out of proportion. The most important part of my job is analyzing worker mistakes, and educating everyone on how and why the mistake happened. I would never do it the way your manager is doing it.

      1. Psyche*

        It’s probably even less than that. I would guess the drink costs the customer $3.50 but costs the cafe a fraction of that.

    6. SophieChotek*

      Thank you all for your feedback; makes me feel better.
      Helps to know others here think she might overacting a wee bit.
      Yes, I will try to shrug it off and be like “eh, that’s just my manager” but it still kind of hurts. =(

      1. irene adler*

        She’s just plain overreacting. Nothing “wee bit” about it.

        Think of it as the universe’s example of how not to treat others.

    7. Emily S.*

      This is absolutely ridiculous. Your manager sounds like a complete jerk. I think it may be time to try to find another weekend gig.

      This reminds me of a toxic manager I had at Starbucks, when I worked there after college. I only lasted about five months there, and apparently most Starbucks managers are better. They supposedly pride themselves on being respectful to “partners,” but that wasn’t my experience – but this was 10 (!) years ago.

    8. Alisanora*

      Definitely unreasonable. This reminds me of some coworkers I had when I was working at Jack in the Box back in high school/college. They weren’t my managers, thank god, but they had been there a “long” time (a few months) and absolutely looked down on anyone who made a mistake (new or not).

      I remember once I asked, “Hey, did I do this right?” My coworker snarled “No,” then when I said, “Okay, then can you show me how I’m supposed to do it?” she just rolled her eyes and stomped off.

      They were mostly young, which I think contributed a lot. Hopefully they’ve grown out of it by now.

    9. Tired*

      This is absurd. I’ve worked with coworkers who have broken expensive pieces of art before that have cost the company over $100. The worst they got was a “Please be more careful.” It’s not a stupid mistake. It’s a human mistake. We’ve all misread things before.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I cost my company nearly $2000 (plane ticket) because early on in my tenure, I’d placed a reminder to get my main boss a flight to a conference. The reminder showed very much like an actual flight entry on his calendar, so I put it there with the intent of purchasing a ticket closer to the conference (it was a few months out) and then promptly forgot about it. My bad for not putting a reminder in my Outlook.

        Fast forward to the Sunday before he’s supposed to leave, and he very apologetically texts me and asks if I can put the confirmation number on his calendar since it’s not there and he’d like it for when he checks in. I go to put it on the calendar, get a sinking feeling, log in to Concur and…no flight.

        I had to get him a last minute flight to one of the biggest conferences for our industry. His response? “Eh, no one died.”

        THAT is a good boss. He was well within his rights to rip me a new one for not only forgetting to buy the ticket but also costing the company nearly triple the price of the original ticket. He didn’t. He moved on.

        To get yelled at twice for a few bucks AND have your /huge ginormous crazy big mistake/ paraded in front of not one but two coworkers is just ridiculous, over the top, and plain mean. I’m sorry that happened to you.

    11. KEWLM0M*

      Well, let’s see… you made one mistake, and she: told you off twice, told 2 other employees, and continued telling the next day, so she’s up to at least 5 mistakes… way to manage (not)

  86. Anonymousaurus Rex*

    So, I commented a couple open threads ago about how my title is really misleading about what I do. I am titled a “Senior Coffee Educator” when I really run our Rare Tea program and manage everything from rare tea education, manage vendor relationships, budget, manage other projects related to rare tea across the organization, and collaborate with all kinds of departments about tea issues. I never do coffee education, and very rarely to anything at all related to coffee.

    My title was changed from “Senior Rare Tea Specialist” to “Senior Coffee Educator” during an HR project to align standardized titles two years ago. My boss tried to fight it at the time, but was shot down. All titles have to be standard and the “Program Manager” title we both thought would be the best fit was not open to me as I do not have direct reports. I’ve been concerned that this is really harming my resume and potential future–and now that it has been two years I decided there was no harm in at least raising the issue with my manager again.

    Well, I emailed her and she basically shot me down, saying she had already lost that battle before and I can’t be a Program Manger if I don’t have direct reports. I can’t go back to my original title because all titles must be standard and I’m the only one who works on rare tea at the company. But what I don’t think she realizes is that I can think of at least four people in our org that I’ve worked with who all manage programs (as I do) but not people and have the title Program Manager. I actually can’t find anyone with the title “Program Manager” who does have direct reports.

    She and I have a 1:1 on Monday, and I want to broach the topic again. I truly don’t think she realizes that, even if you had to have direct reports to receive that title during the re-titling project two years ago, there are plenty of non-manager “Program Managers” now. How do I approach this in a way that doesn’t seem insubordinate? I don’t want to push the envelope too far, but I really feel stuck!

    1. Holly*

      So… I would like to hear what others think, but it seems your main concern is how your title will look on your resume and “potential future” (aka cough cough when you look for a new job). Your manager is obviously not going to have the same concern as you! Bringing it up when your manager already told you your title is not going to be changed, might look a little odd. I wouldn’t bring it up unless you have a specific reason why INTERNALLY, for the success of your job *at that company* you think it’s been an issue that your title is X and not Y. If it hasn’t been an issue, I might just let it go since you brought it up already.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Yes–you’re right about it mostly being an issue for getting a new position! I’ve actually already told her that I’m mostly concerned for “professional development” reasons. My role has a history of being a stepping-stone to higher roles within the company (at least before the title change), but I think the new title (which is lumped in with a whole bunch of other people who actually do Coffee Education) is a detriment to that internally as well as externally.

        Of course, she doesn’t want me to leave my current role, even for another one within my organization, but when she hired me she knew that I wanted to move up–I was pretty clear about that from the get-go. I’ve got a PhD in my field, most people in my role would only have an MA or maybe a just a BA, and the only reason I haven’t pursued a new position before now is that the whole company was going through restructure and lay-offs last year, and I was just happy to be among those who got to keep a job. But now that that’s settled, yeah, I’m looking to move up. She already knows that, I think. I’m actually much more likely to try to leave now if I can’t get a title change though, because 3 years as the wrong title is bad, but not as bad as 5 years with the wrong title.

    2. Tara S.*

      (As an aside, I love how creative people get here with the whole Teapots Inc language.)

      If you’re primarily worried about your resume, you don’t have to put your official title. Like Alison says, your resume is a marketing document. Put “Senior Rare Tea Specialist” on your resume, and *if* it comes up you can explain that “Senior Coffee Educator” was part of the HR standardization, but really you worked in teas.

      I totally get why you’re frustrated, though. At work, can you put a little “sub title” on your emails to help address it?

      1. Liane*

        I think it might be better to go with the format of “Senior Coffee Educator (Senior Rare Tea Specialist)” that I’ve seen suggested before for when your employer uses either a unique title for your job, or a title that usually means something different in the field.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      So if your main concern is how your title will look on your resume outside the company, then I wouldn’t concern myself about this yet again. I think your manager is going to feel a little exasperated that she put in the good fight for you once already, has told you again she’s not going to go down that road again, and this would be beating a dead horse.

      Now, that said, I have had crappy job titles that did not reflect what I actually did. “Dedicated Care Specialist” when really I was a business analyst. Uh, what? That title meant NOTHING and it was part of an internal thing where they wanted our titles to sound friendly and helpful to our clients. I had that on my resume and had multiple recruiters straight up tell me not to use it. Instead, I put that I was a business analyst, because that is what my job was, at their recommendation (internal recruiters as well, not staffing agencies). When I interviewed for a job and it got to the reference checking piece I simply said “by the way, my title was business analyst but they made a change and it might now be referred to as dedicated care specialist. I know that is a confusing title so I wanted to make sure it made the most sense on my resume.” Not a single manager was unhappy with that. We’re all familiar with crappy job titles that don’t reflect your work.

      So I would go ahead and put Senior Rare Tea Specialist on your resume, and if necessary, explain that there was a job title alignment and so they may have whatever the new title is. I also think it would be fine to put “Program Manager – Senior Rare Tea Specialist” as long as you truly are a program manager. Don’t stretch your job title. If you’re not really managing the program, don’t do it. Every HR recruiter/hiring manager I’ve talked to with the exception of one is totally cool with putting down a title that reflects your work. It makes the resume easier for them to read and understand. You just can’t go too off script with it, because then it looks like you’re inflating your experience.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        This is the tricky bit. I think I AM doing the work of a program manager (other than not having direct reports, what I do lines up 100% with that job description), but I am very hesitant to use it on my resume without having it as my official title because it is an official title that my company somehow didn’t agree to let me have (two years ago) and I definitely don’t want to look like I’m inflating anything.

        So far on my resume I just put (Senior Rare Tea Specialist) in after my official title, but if you’re just scanning it still looks like my job is something other than what I do. Someone who is actually a Senior Coffee Educator generally has a degree and licenses in an entirely different field than me, and honestly that’s not a job I’m qualified for. It bothers me equally that I am not receiving credit for what I’m actually doing and it also looks like I have qualifications I don’t have.

    4. BRR*

      I’m in a similar, frustrating situation of my accurate title doesn’t line up with our standardized titles. I don’t know the situation enough from your letter, but I will suggest strongly considering whether bringing it up again will just irritate your manager. Can you suggest an alternative title? If you can slip it in casually and easily that no program manager has direct reports go for it, but be very careful if this is something you’ve been told to drop.

      1. BRR*

        Also it would be helpful if you can present why this is important internally. People think with my title that I’m a member of another team.

      2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        In her response to my email she said we could discuss it (and general professional development issues) at our next 1:1, so I hope I’ll have an easy opening to mention it. I don’t want to beat a dead horse or annoy my manager, but I also get the sense that she’s on my side–just not enough that she wants to go through the hassle of bringing it up to HR. Unfortunately I can’t really just suggest an alternate title (like the one I was hired with). I can only suggest titles that exist in our HR system, and “Program Manager” is the closest thing to what I do. The other option, “Assistant program manager” would be a definite step down–it would take me from exempt to non-exempt and requires only a 2 year degree, when I have a PhD.

    5. Former Expat*

      I’m agree with other commentators that the done thing here is to have the more accurate title after the “weird” title in parentheses on your resume, e.g Chief Storyteller (CEO) 2015-present. With all the froopy doopy job titles out there, I am sure this is becoming a common thing to see on a resume. If your manager shot you down before, eh I could see how it would be annoying if you brought it up again. Pointing out that other people with the preferred title might make her change her mind. But it could just as likely make you seem petty and childish. I wish that weren’t the case and you are probably lovely and the opposite of petty, but that is just how things come across.

  87. Cheese Boat*

    Ooh, you are so lucky to have warm weather again! ( I live in the northern US)

    I don’t know how possible this is for you, but at my old lab job I would bike to work in shorts and then either change into pants or slap on a pair of sweatpants over the shorts. It helped me minimize sweat and reduce the amount of laundry I had to do as a result of the sweat.

  88. heatherskib*

    What are your secrets for success when it comes to working from home? I start a new job December 1 working from home full time. I want to make sure I’m setting myself up for success as much as possible in the first few weeks.

    1. Mina*

      I only work at home 1 day a week, but it can be hard sometimes for me because I do better with structure. I try to approach it as a “normal” work day with a set start/stop time, lunch break, other breaks, etc. I make a to-do list for myself in the morning to keep myself on track and not get distracted by things like laundry…if I’m feeling really isolated I will change locations to a coffee shop or try to schedule a phone call, chat, etc. to stay connected somehow.

      1. heatherskib*

        I’m trying to build in structure with alarms to keep me on tasks and make me take breaks. My hsband also has strict instructions to encourage me to get up in the morning bathe and dress for work. It helps that I’ll probably have a lot of video chats.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Re: Video chats
          Do a dry run and check out how your workspace looks on the chat window. Best if it looks like an office, but most important that no undone household tasks are visible in the background.

          1. heatherskib*

            I have a spare room that will be a fully dedicated office by my official start date of December 1. All of my work will be done from that room.

    2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      I work from home about 90% of the time. A few things that help me:
      1) Dedicated work space–this is essential. You need a place to go to that feels like “work” with everything set up as you need it (e.g. extra monitor, printer if needed, phone with headset, etc). My dedicated space is actually in my dining room, but I have a desk that folds up, so when my work day is over it can all be tucked away.
      2) Availability via intra-office IM – I make sure that I’m really available on our IM system for any quick chat. I also prefer this to phone calls and try to reinforce it when I let people know about my availability, but I’m also available by phone at any time I’m not in a meeting.
      3) Be on time and participate in meetings. This helps your “visibility” if you aren’t present in the office. (More important for offices that do have full time staff in the office, but still good if everyone is remote)

      1. heatherskib*

        I have a spare bedroom being set up this weekend. I’ll definitely remember to be always available.

    3. Dance-y Reagan*

      Honestly, I do exactly opposite what most people recommend, because it’s what works for me. I sleep later and then I lounge in jammies all day. I find that doing so makes me look forward to my remote days so much more. It keeps me grateful and diligent, so I stay on top of my game.

      That said, I’m only partially remote and spend the majority of the week in the office, so that transition keeps “refreshing”. Going remote full-time is probably vastly different.

    4. Overeducated*

      If your workload and schedule allow it, plan your tasks to focus on ones that are better done at home than in the workplace. For example, if I have to do something like work on a report that takes hours of dedicated focus, that’s a good task for me to do at home because I won’t be interrupted. If I have to do something involving a lot of physical files, physical reference material, or multiple monitors, I do as much as I can in the office so I can get the rest done from home. And see if there are times of day when you have an easier or harder time focusing – for example, I tend to have trouble concentrating in the late afternoon when I work from home, so I need to work on more concrete administrative tasks then instead of ones that are more creative or intellectual.

    5. SophieChotek*

      I work 100% remotely/can work from home.
      Honestly, I try to work from the local public library. It has individual study rooms, wi-fi, and frankly has better AC/heat than my apartment has. Plus, I do not get distracted at all by things that may distract me at home like “oh, shoot, I forgot to start that load of laundry/do the dinner dishes” or “dang, I’m hungry, wonder what is left to eat?”
      Overall, I have better success packing my lunch and going to the library and working there.
      (To be fair, local library is less than 3 miles from where I live. So it’s not far; I’m not really spending extra gas or the extra $ I might spend if I went to a coffee shop every day.)
      But it is great to be able to stay home and not worry about going out if the weather is terrible or if I am not feeling the greatest.

      That said, since you have a dedicated work space, that will really help.
      Some of it is a mental trick – closing the door and trying to shut out the “home/house” stuff.
      Like Mina said, I try to be pretty scheduled even remotely – same start time every day, approx. same lunch hour, hoped-for end of the day hour, etc.
      Also my Mom/others know (ought to know) that even though I work remotely, they cannot just call any old time or drop in to say “hi”.

    6. Raena*

      I work from home 100%.
      -Having a schedule is very important. Set your routine and stick with it as much as possible.
      -Have a normal morning routine. I treat my mornings the same way I would if I worked in an office. This way I can keep my home/work separate and be ‘on’ when I sit down to work.
      -Have a dedicated workplace.
      -Be reachable. If I have to run out I’ll let my team lead know to call/text me and when I should be back.
      -You don’t have to wear uncomfortable clothes but I always make sure I’m wearing something that I wouldn’t be embarrassed wearing to the post office or staples. Avoid wearing pajamas or a robe. This makes you a little to comfortable!
      -Schedule your lunchtime!
      -Schedule your day ahead of time so you can take breaks! The strangest part of working from home has been how unlikely I am to get up unless my partner reminds me. It’s so easy to get completely absorbed in work when your in a quiet comfortable environment but you need breaks! Try and remember if you were working in an office people get up, stretch, and walk around all the time. If you can take a walk midday that works great for me.
      -Lastly, when you stop working, STOP. Turn of your computer, don’t answer to calls, check emails etc. You need to have a stop point where you are done for the day just like any other job. This is a huge relief for me at the end of a busy day!
      Hope this helps and congrats on your new job!!

  89. Anoncorporate*

    I have an internal interview for a lateral transfer in my company. From what I have read on AAM, you should prepare for an internal interview the same way you would for an external interview. I’ve been doing that with the questions. However, what do I do about my wardrobe?

    My office is pretty casual, but I plan to dress nicely for the interview, which is in the afternoon. However, it will look very unusual for me to come in wearing a pantsuit. My current plan is to wear nice pants and top with a casual sweater during the, and then switch to a blazer before the interview. Or should I just wear a nice semiformal outfit for the whole day?

    My managers and one coworker know I’m interviewing, but I would rather not advertise it to the whole team.

    Also side note: internal interviewing feels weird to me! I want to mess this up less than external interviews because I know and work with these people.

    1. Tara S.*

      Good luck! I think your plan of swapping the blazer with a sweater until the interview will work great, but so will semiformal outfit all day.

    2. heatherskib*

      The question kinda boils down to whether or not you want your coworkers to know that you’re looking? If you’sre ok with that then wear your pantsuit. Otherwise I agree on the sweater.

    3. Sleepytime Tea*

      I have been in the same spot, and I just went ahead and wore my interview outfit all day, even though we were pretty casual. If asked I said “oh, I just felt like getting fancy today!” Sure, some people suspected, but it’s none of their business. Or go with “right after work I’m going to a nice dinner with my parents and won’t have time to change.” Whatever works. If your biggest concern is hiding the fact that you’re interviewing, then I think it would be more suspicious to change in the middle of the day (even if you change back, someone will likely see you). So yeah, I would just say you have after work plans where you won’t have time to change or something like that.

    4. GreyNerdShark*

      I went through a period where I was thinking of leaving. So I moved from jeans and t-shirts to nicer gear. For geek values of nice of course.

      It was about 4 weeks before I got an interview (for the first job I liked enough to try for) and everyone was used to what I was wearing. I’m still doing it because I found a style I like that is simple and easy to layer for summer and winter.

      I’ve dipped my toe in the interviewing waters a couple of times since then and I like not having to dance about it.

  90. Snubble*

    I have an interview in a couple of weeks for an ideal job, and a fresh application gone in today for another!
    Financially and for my own sanity, I need to move on, but I’m feeling like that’s realistically possible, soon-ish. I’m probably only a middling candidate for this role, but middling candidates get jobs all the time when the perfect person didn’t happen to apply. So I’m hopeful.!

  91. SL #2*

    Today is my first Friday in the office without my coworker who worked the same Fridays before she left. So it’s very, very quiet, because it was always just the two of us. At least I’ll be able to get some cleaning done, and hopefully head out a bit early, since it’s a long weekend and the multiple wildfires in LA are snarling up traffic worse than usual.

  92. DaniCalifornia*

    So frustrated with my job search, I’ve been searching on and off for a year (our busy season makes it impossible to interview.) and I am just losing hope. I’ve revamped my resume and gotten a lot of good feedback from interviewers, networking contacts, old managers, recruiters, etc. I’ve got several awesome cover letters. I’ve been told that my skills are “impressive” and “any company would be lucky to have me” yet no job. I don’t think I can make it during one more tax season and all the other deadlines we have. I’ve read all the entries here and at Captain Awkward and it help, I just…it’s getting harder to put in the effort to apply. I try to mass apply on days I’m feeling more optimistic because I would hate to half ass it on a day where I feel hopeless. I was hoping that I’d have a new job before the end of the year as resigning during tax season could burn some serious bridges to the job that has provided most of my current work and references.

    On the plus side I am getting to practice disengaging with my complaining coworker and it makes the days easier to just reply with “hmm that’s too bad” or with nothing at all.

    1. Mouse in the House*

      I can commiserate with you exactly. Every time someone sees my resume they say, “that’s exactly what the position you want does!” Great, so then why won’t anyone hire me? Well, this industry is known for hiring based on who you know, not what you know. This industry… literally the only way to get to the next move I want to make is just keep networking and hit a lucky break. Luckily, it’s full of cold-calling, so now that I’ve run out of contacts, I just keep emailing people. But I know what you mean. It’s exhausting and demoralizing at times. Sorry I don’t have any good advice, but just know you’re not alone!

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Thanks! It does help knowing I’m not the only one in the boat! Hopefully we’ll both have some luck soon and find jobs that are a great fit. At least this job search I am gainfully employed and not in danger of losing any jobs. Last time I was unemployed.

        It does seem like networking is the only way to go. I actually applied for a dream job and did my research and found a former supervisor who is a reference for me and he’s connected with the dream job’s HR manager on LinkedIn! I contacted him and drafted up my best email asking him if he’d reach out to her…alas they met in passing years ago and it’s one of the few people he doesn’t know in real life. Oh well!

    2. It's me*

      can relate. I ended up quitting my last job on March 15th which was still a month earlier than the individual due date. My director saw it coming, but I’m still not sure how badly I burned that bridge. My new job came because a recruiter I had worked with previously gave me a call, and truly it was one of those things where it all fell into place. If an opportunity does come up during or close to busy season, don’t write it off. I ended up negotiating a later start date in order to give 4 weeks notice. Good luck in your job search

    3. job search is no fun*

      I can also commiserate. Both my current job and previous job took months (felt like longer) to land. Interview after interview, personality tests, getting ghosted on by call-backs and using personal time for said interviews was draining (emotionally and physically). I’m in a different industry than you, but the end of the year was not the best time for finding a job for me, but please just keep swimming.

  93. Anon here again*

    My boss threatens to quit/retire every month whenever Grandboss tells at him. He hasn’t yet, but it’s exhausting and dramatic. Has anyone else experienced this?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Oh yes, one of my bosses does this every once in a while. Not only threatens to quit but actually goes so far as to publically announce her last day. But the day comes around and she is still here. The last time this happened, supposedly her last day was…oh…6 months ago. This happens every year on average. Everyone just rolls their and knows she is throwing a fit to make a point at “grandboss”…I don’t know about the politics enough to know if she calms down and gets over her snit or if she has gotten her way over whatever-the-initial-issue was.

      1. Jenna Maroney*

        The company I work for is so god-awful and disrespectful of its workers that I want to warn anyone who applies to be a member of our team, even though I don’t know any of them.

        1. DaniCalifornia*

          Could you do this indirectly? As in if there’s a chance to slip in “Oh you should look up some culture/reviews/information on Glassdoor about our company.” and then let them read the reviews (assuming there are bad ones?)

          1. Jenna Maroney*

            The glassdoor reviews for my company are already bad, but even they don’t cover what a useless, stupid company it is.

    2. Ok_Go_West*

      One time, when I was working at a school, my principal asked me to meet with a potential job candidate privately before the official interview process, which has to follow a lot of government rules. The candidate asked me candidly how friendly the other teachers at the school were and I answered honestly: very unfriendly. She said that was a dealbreaker for her and didn’t complete the rest of the application process.

      We ended up finding a candidate who, quite frankly, had fewer job options due to a lack of experience but was totally competent. He adjusted to the unfriendly atmosphere and stayed for many years. I preferred that outcome to having someone come, realize it was a bad fit, and leave after a year.

    3. Morning Glory*

      I’ve given honest assessments about positions/organizations before, then let the candidates decide for themselves. In my case, it was not about the company, but that a junior-level position had limited to no room for professional advancement, but HR was “optimistic” to the point of dishonesty in their phone screens.

      I usually said “in the interest of transparency, there are some limitations about X that are a dealbreaker for some people, like Y, Z, and A. Then I close the interview by saying “I was candid earlier about some of the downsides of working here, so now I want to take a couple of minutes to tell you some of my favorite things about this organization. We have excellent B, C, and D.” Even with really terrible companies, there tends to be a couple of bright spots to highlight.

      I did have one candidate withdraw after interviewing with me, but considered that a success because we were both able to avoid a poor fit.

    4. Overeducated*

      I’ve given what I think of as very honest information on my grad program and openings in my workplace before, telling people what I wished someone had told me. I’ve never said “don’t come here,” but I have said “here’s how things work, these are the aspects that were challenging for me, if they would also be challenging for you then you might want to consider alternatives.” Most of the people I’ve said that to have said “oh, it’ll be fine for me!” and their experiences have really varied, but one person did get back in touch with me to tell me she went elsewhere and thank me. Similarly, I asked a couple professional contacts about my current workplace and they were pretty honest about the drawbacks; I took the job anyway because it was the right step in my career, but I walked in with my eyes open and don’t regret it, whereas coworkers without that information felt really deceived and upset.

    6. KX*

      I did once, during the interview. (I was not the hiring manager.)

      The candidate had I job that was more or less what I used to do at another company. When the candidate asked during the interview if there was anything I thought the candidate should know about the role, I said to expect the role here to be mostly X and very little Y. Y was the part I enjoyed most at the old job I used to have, and you could tell from the interview that Y was the most interesting part of the candidate’s current position.

      The candidate was offered the job but turned it down. Because of what I said? We don’t know. The hiring manager asked HR to try to find out why the candidate turned down the role, but never found out.

  95. Myrin*

    I’ve briefly talked about Second-in-command (SIC) at one of my part-time jobs before – not going into details but the only thing you need to know is that she’s an all around dreadful and unpleasant person. In the beginning, I thought she’d taken an immediate disliking to me, but over time I’ve found out that the behaviour she displayed towards me was in the same vein as that displayed at everyone else (safe for the two people who outrank her and her mother who also works here (and who is exactly as unpleasant as she is)); I’ve been here for nine months now and have found out that basically everyone finds her as unbearable as I do, which was a relief but also like – why is she still here?!

    In any case, last week she criticised me for something that I was 98% sure wasn’t actually factually true. I mean, I reckon it was true in that very instant, but she said “this has always happened lately!” and while I’m not prone to freaking out, I was still worried about that; after all, I don’t want to make my coworkers’ life harder because of an apparent oversight on my part, and it was technically possible that she was right, even if I felt like it was just one of her usual exaggerations.
    Nevertheless, I approached my direct supervisor about it on Wednesday (she had been on vacation before) and when I did, she didn’t even understand what I was talking about at first because there definitely wasn’t a problem! She said basically what I had thought she’d say, that if there ever was such a problem, she would long have alerted me to it, that even if stuff falls through the cracks – which sometimes happens, seeing as we’re only there 12 hours a week – it’s so minor that she or other full-time workers can take care of it in literally five minutes, and that she has absolutely no idea what SIC was on about there.

    And, I mean, I was basically sure of that before I’d even talked to her, but in that moment, I still felt like Captain Holt in Brooklyn Nine-Nine when he fist-pumped and yelled “VINDICATION!”.

    1. SophieChotek*

      Glad your direct supervisor has your back and you could be vindicated! Hurray! Sometimes these things work out.

  96. JustaTech*

    After two months, five people (including my director and the site head of HR) I *finally* have my business cards in time for my conference!

    (Apparently only sales and other customer-facing people get business cards, but how are you supposed to network at a conference without cards? Or with cards that have the wrong title, address, and company branding?)

    So, to the lovely commentariat: Clothing-wise, how many steps up is a medical/industry conference from a scientific conference? (In California, if that matters.) Obviously no jeans, but can I do the nice end of business casual? (Sheath dress, blazer or cardigan, tights and flats or trousers, blouse and blazer or cardigan) Or is this a case of “quick, scrounge up some things that look like suits”?
    Thanks!

    1. Mina*

      I worked in medicine in CA (Bay Area) and I found it to be more on the nice end of business casual. In contrast to the east coast where it was more about formal suits, I didn’t find it to be that way! I usually did nice trousers with a blouse/business casual top and for a conference, throw on a blazer on top.

    2. Book Lover*

      Do you mean a continuing medical education, or something else? For CME, the industry people are usually business casual and the doctors wear whatever they like (jeans, yoga pants, shorts).

      1. JustaTech*

        No, it’s a mixed biotech/pharma/ medical conference. Like, there are sessions on “finding efficiencies in your antibody production” and “Moving from Phase I to Phase II clinical trials”. So there might be some CMEs, but I think it’s mostly industry-based applied research.

  97. Stephanie*

    What does everyone do with business cards? I have a growing stack that are just sitting on my desk…

    1. Anon From Here*

      I go through them every once in a while and add the relevant phone/e-mails to my phone contacts and/or my LinkedIn, then toss them all. Honestly most of them age out of relevance after 6 months or so, at least in my line of work (lawyering), because people change firms or move to a new jurisdiction.

      I had a supervisor once who kept a portfolio of business cards, like hundreds, on his desk. But this was at a construction major contractor who needed to keep subcontractor contact information to hand.

    2. Mouse in the House*

      I don’t have *too* many so they’re in a glass jar for now. I’ve also heard of getting large binders with clear sheets meant for business cards. I’d say just organize them in a way that makes sense for *YOU*. It’s common to organize by theme or name – I organize all of mine in chronological order. I have a very good memory and sense of time, so organizing them this way helps jog my memory of when/where I met someone.

    3. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I take a photo with my phone then toss the card. But usually I just toss them — looking information up on the internet is just easier for me.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      For a minute i thought you were in my bost…My company plays the Division Shuffle so often that if they’d reissued cards each time I’d have had 5 in addition to the one changing my job title.

      (I use the old ones to label storage boxes and file cabinets. A friend labels his home-brew.)

  98. Robot With Human Hair*

    I just need to rant a little, because I’m getting very nervous about potentially becoming screwed health insurance-wise very soon. Right now, my wife and I are benefiting from a subsidy that keeps our health insurance for us and our two kids around $325/mo (and we currently get a taxable $300 medical stipend from my job to pay for insurance).

    Now, I love my job and feel like I’m actually valued here. Meanwhile, my company is still trying to work out a health insurance plan for all employees because within the last year, we hit the number of employees (15) at which it actually becomes feasible and (allegedly) affordable…but every plan they’ve proposed in the last year has been insanely cost prohibitive for my family, to the point where I’d be losing about a third of my pay every month just for medical insurance. And that’s with that $300 then being rolling into supposedly keeping premiums down. I feel like I’m somehow the outlier on this, though, being that I have kids whereas most of the people in the office don’t (or have kids, but get their insurance via military benefits, etc.).

    However, if they provide insurance and we decline it, we lose the subsidy (and it’s up in the air whether or not those who decline would still receive the $300 stipend) and our current insurance suddenly becomes almost $1,100/mo. out of pocket, which is unsustainable if we want to, you know, survive.

    I’m terrified about potentially losing access to my therapist and then subsequently dealing with withdrawal from antidepressants that I would no longer be able to afford, etc. It makes me wonder how many other people deal with this same problem with their jobs.

    1. Natalie*

      It’s a long shot, but it could still fail the ACA affordability test if the premiums are that high. Your individual premium would have to be more than 10% of your modified AGI.

      Unfortunately I think a lot of people deal with this kind of thing by making a lot of trade offs they’d rather not – working for a larger company that offers more affordable insurance, having two working parents that each carry coverage, or (unfortunately) going without coverage. It really sucks.

      1. Robot With Human Hair*

        Still screwed there, unfortunately, because if I went with the cheapest individual plan, it meets that affordability threshold (~$50/mo after employer contribution), but of course then my wife and kids have no coverage.

        Met with the person handling the health insurance plans and I just crunched the numbers for what it would cost for the employee + family plan w/ co-pays and – no joke – it would be over 25% of my AGI. Even the plan with deductables instead sits at around 20% of my AGI.

        To get medical insurance for me and my family, I’d basically lose a quarter of my pay – and we’re already living paycheck to paycheck. Fun times ahead.

        1. Ali G*

          Are they trying to get a plan just for the 15 of you? That’s inane. It will never be affordable. At my first job we were a non-profit of 6. We had an insurance broker that put us in a pool with lots of other small businesses to spread out the costs. It was great insurance and I was able to afford it comfortably on my small salary (while paying student loans).
          Maybe try inserting yourself more into the process to see if you can find some better options – because 15 people in a group will not work. Wait until someone has a kid, or a major medical procedure – then your rates will go up even more. That’s actually what happened to us to make us start shopping around. I had a very expensive medical accident and when the year ended, they wanted to jack up our premiums to the point that no one would be able to afford them.

          1. Robot With Human Hair*

            Well, there’s a total of 19 of us here and including myself, I already know that 3 of us are declining, but yeah, it’s still inane. I think they’re doing it to woo prospective new hires, but at the risk of alienating those of us that aren’t single and/or with kids? Seems bizarre. I honestly don’t know how many more people might decline, since most of the people here are single and $50/mo isn’t going to kill them.

        2. Natalie*

          Ah, so it sounds like for employees alone, it’s not a bad plan at all, but they don’t cover as much or any of the spouse/dependent premiums. Unfortunately this is really, really common in a business of that size. Spouse/dependent coverage adds up a lot faster and more unpredictably than employee coverage, so smaller businesses tend to limit it.

          In my experience, premiums for children tend to be fairly affordable, and it might be easier for you to advocate for some level (or a higher level) of employer contribution since they are required to provide dependent coverage anyway.

          Does your wife work outside the home at all? Would it be feasible for her to pick up something part time that offered health insurance for her? Or would she qualify for any kind of state insurance since she doesn’t have employer provided coverage?

          1. Robot With Human Hair*

            Nope, she’s stuck home for the kids for at least the time being (my son’s in 1st grade, which is fine, but my daughter’s 4 and in half-day pre-K). Once our daughter’s in KTGN, she’s going to start looking and hopefully find something with better insurance.

    2. WellRed*

      So I work for a company this size and this seems really high. Is your company gonna up the subsidy or something to offset what is essentially a pay cut? Can you insure yourself and your wife continue with whatever plan you were on?

      1. RobotWithHumanHair*

        My wife wouldn’t be able to, unfortunately, since I’ve been offered health care through my job. And nope, no upping the subsidy. The CFO actually tried to spin it that this is better for us, since the $300 we’ve been getting has been taxed, so when it’s put directly into health insurance, it’s no longer taxed and we’re getting the full $300. Woo, $300 instead of, like, $280. Just doesn’t make sense to me. Though it’s probably because the marketplace got absolutely wrecked down here in FL, from what I understand.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Wanted to second this. It’s not welfare, not at all*, so if you qualify, please get your kids on CHIP.

        *Some people consider CHIP or other medical programs welfare. I consider it money out of my taxes well-spent if we’re keeping kids healthy, or if sick folks who can’t work are on Medicaid. That might make me in the minority, but having did a stint on Medicaid myself back when we were in dire straits completely and irrevocably changed my attitude toward “welfare” forever.

        1. RobotWithHumanHair*

          They actually are on CHIP right now, or at least Florida’s version of it. And I have no idea what could happen to that once my employer offers health insurance. As far as my wife and I are concerned, the marketplace says that if my job offers health insurance and we’re at a certain income level, we no longer qualify for a subsidy, so it just double screws us there.

          1. Midwest writer*

            I am late here, but in case you’re checking: My kids were on my state’s version of CHIP for about 2 years after I qualified for health insurance at my job. My husband was also working full-time, during the school year, as an aide, so pretty low pay. Have you gone to your state’s CHIP website and looked at the income guidelines there? I don’t know how much that will save you, but it might make a little difference. Good luck! Health insurance issues like this are awful.

    4. Kuododi*

      Similar problems but not identical. I have a laundry list of chronic health issues stemming from a 25-ish yr old cancer dx, a total thyroidectomy, and a raging case of PCOS. Among other things… I am left with a list of daily meds that is twice as long as I am tall. I additionally have to do a number of serious medical tests annually to make certain there’s been no recurrence of CA and everything is staying on target with health mgmt. Bottom line, every time DH employer starts talking about making changes to the insurance coverage…he and I hold our breath for a few days until we find out what kind of damage the new coverage will take out of the pay. (Not to mention if there is going to be more and more conflict over insurance willingness to cover medications I need as well as proceedures and providers.). At the end of the day, DH and I are one bad head cold away from having to declare medical bankruptcy. This wasn’t on the agenda when we were bright eyed newlyweds. :(

      1. RobotWithHumanHair*

        It’s terrifying sometimes living in a country where our health care woes legitimately leave us one medical emergency away from being completely destitute. I definitely don’t have the same diagnoses, etc. as you, but damn, I sympathize.

  99. Minerva McGonagall*

    My spouse has been having a difficult school year and I’d love some advice on ways I can help him or ideas for him to take on himself to help things be better.

    This is his 4th year teaching. He teaches a specialty subject with very few openings yearly. This year he has had some struggles with managing his growing program, other teachers being nasty (he operates on a pull-out basis, so a lot of phone calls to the classroom), administration being weird, parents, and honestly the world’s worst graduate class. He constantly has a mountain of work to do at home because he doesn’t get prep periods. He’s also had some personal struggles including several family issues including his grandmother passing away.

    He seems burned out already and is feeling like a total impostor in the classroom. And today was a professional development day where they did active shooter training and he got “shot” by the nerf gun 2 of 3 times so…any advice to support him in his work or for him to do specifically would be greatly appreciated!

    1. Dance-y Reagan*

      The lack of prep periods is concerning. Is his a full-time position, and does he have a union?

      Also, ALICE training sucks in a school, and I don’t know a single teacher who didn’t have a terrible time with it. Especially since classroom doors are mandated to open out, per fire code.

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        He is full-time, and does have a union. But because of the subject he’s teaching, his scheduled prep often gets overriden for coverage in other classes (the whole sub-shortage is another issue) and his department is very small but works with hundreds of students but the idea of hiring additional teachers is not A Thing.

    2. LibrarianJ*

      This sounds exactly like my husband (minus the union part – he doesn’t have a union, but boy does he have the subbing and prep-period issues, and he also teaches a specialty. He’s been trying to move schools for years, but there’s usually only 1-2 openings per hiring season). He also had ALICE training this week, and had a tough time with it.

      He has a long commute, so we splurged a bit on an Audible subscription and a Kindle Fire to make his commutes more bearable. I’ve been trying also to be better at anticipating his needs at home. And, we’ve decided that he shouldn’t take a summer job, like many of his coworkers do — though we could use the money — because he needs the reprieve.

      The coworker drama and administration expectations are tough, and I’ll be honest that he ended up going on anti-depressants this summer (no therapy, yet, as he’s not comfortable with it), and that has helped a lot. The social dynamics at his school might be worse than those of the students, so, even though he gets a lot of grief for it, he makes a point of staying out of personal relationships or socializing.

      What he most needed to do was to take a step back. He’s in his 7th year of teaching, and this is really only something he’s done in the last few years. But when he got stress-induced shingles a few years back at the age of 28, he really had to admit that he was pushing his health, and had a pretty frank conversation with his administration about it. He’s made a point of stepping back from different leadership positions / extracurriculars to the extent that he can. And he’s had to work hard to really remind himself (and sometimes I have to remind him) that his resources are finite, that sometimes it’s OK if his class isn’t perfectly prepped to the last detail, and that he can’t do everything. So I try really hard to call attention to the moments that he really is being a good teacher (his students love him), pick up the slack at home where I can, and also not freak out and remain supportive during his annual ‘maybe I should switch careers’ phase.

      I don’t know if any of this helps, but if nothing else, maybe it helps to know that you (and he) are not alone in this!

      1. Minerva McGonagall*

        This is all so helpful, thank you! Our husbands sound extremely similar-right down to the discomfort with therapy. I’m glad to hear that the anti-depressants have helped your husband; mine is still a bit skiddish around the idea but hearing your story is really helpful. All of your suggestions are really helpful, and thank you for the encouragement!

    3. Gumby*

      I also want to encourage him that it will probably get easier. It’s not the same situation, but my mother taught high school math and she says she never really felt she had a true handle on a class until she’d taught it 3 times. Even with 30+ years of teaching experience. Give her a new-to-her prep and it’s just that little bit harder for the first few years.

      Though the work-to-do-at-home isn’t likely to change. Even with a prep period it won’t all fit in. Or never did for either of my parents.

  100. stitchinthyme*

    This is more of a vent than anything, because the problem isn’t mine and of course I can’t force someone else to do something. It’s about a former coworker that I worked with for several years but haven’t seen more than a couple of times since he left that company about 6 years ago, about a year before I did. He left because he moved out of the area — staying would have been workable if our boss had been at all willing to let him adjust his schedule, but he refused and this coworker’s commute would have been horrendous as a result.

    So, fast-forward six years; former coworker (FC) is still at the place he landed after leaving our old company. Apparently it was fine the first couple of years, but ever since there’s been an influx of mean people, who literally mock FC anytime he doesn’t know something or uses a term they consider wrong. Since I worked with FC, I know for a fact that he’s not incompetent, but he does have a confidence problem and a pretty bad case of impostor syndrome, and over the last couple years the mocking and ridiculing from his coworkers have dropped what little confidence he had to basically nothing. I really think he’s in the equivalent of an emotionally abusive relationship, with his coworkers gaslighting him into thinking he’s stupid and useless. He says that when he’s tried to stand up to them, it never works; his company is too small to have any sort of HR to go to, and apparently management is either oblivious or doesn’t care. FC is also pathologically non-confrontational, to the point where he’ll be a doormat and stew about it before he’ll assert himself, so I’m not sure how much he’s actually pushed back or whether he’s actually even taken his concerns to management. (They may also be part of the problem, from references he’s made.)

    I (and others) have told him about a million times that he needs to look for a new job. He says he has, but that there aren’t any jobs in his area that don’t require a security clearance, and he really doesn’t want to work for the government for various reasons. I have told him to keep looking — after all, he found his current job, and I’d be really surprised if that were the ONLY non-government tech company in the whole area. But from other comments he’s made, I think his confidence is so low that he doesn’t think he could find another job if he tried, because he thinks he’s totally incompetent…and no amount of trying to tell him he’s not helps.

    One more interesting bit: according to another former coworker of ours who used to work at his new company as well (I’ll call him FC2), the way his company’s management views him is completely at odds with the way he thinks they view him. FC2 told me in a private exchange that FC is an absolutely critical employee at the company and that management has no problems with his work or his competency.

    I really wish there were something I could say that would push FC to realize he’s being gaslighted, and that the best thing he can do is find a new job. I don’t know how much effort he’s put into it, but reading between the lines, I’m guessing not a huge amount. And it’s frustrating to read his constant stories of his coworkers’ abuse and keep thinking, “Why don’t you make more of an effort to get the hell OUT of there?”

    1. stitchinthyme*

      Addendum: FC’s coworkers have mocked him for his weight (he’s gained some since he started there due to stress), and have done things like spend several hours sharing videos of people saying stupid things in response to something he says that they think is stupid. This is not gentle teasing; it’s outright abuse.

    2. stitchinthyme*

      Been talking to him about it some more, and he says he’s way too stressed to do a job search right now. I suggested taking some time off — his company has “unlimited vacation” (which in practice means “you can take time whenever we can spare you”, which works out to “almost never”), and he said that he’s almost singlehandledly holding the company together right now. I pointed out that you can’t be both completely incompetent and singlehandedly holding your company together…and that any company whose entire existence depends on a single employee (not even a manager) doesn’t deserve to stay afloat anyway. I hope he listens to me and takes some time.

    3. Kathenus*

      So it sounds like he does know that the company values him, and it’s great that you pointed it out to him. Your initial comment was right – you can’t force someone else to do something. But, maybe you can help him see his options more clearly. He can’t change his coworkers, but he can change his choices and actions to try and improve his situation. For example, if he feels too stressed out to job hunt right now, then he needs to accept that he’s making a choice to stay at the company right now so find ways to make it more of a job than a career mentally, meaning do good work but don’t let it represent his self-worth. If he finds that he can’t let things go at work and is miserable, so he makes a choice to either rethink the job hunting or to make a concrete plan to go to management with specific things he needs to be able to be comfortable at his job.

      Help him see the power he has – to either try to change his situation (new job or a more forceful meeting with management) or to change his mental approach to disconnect and try to reduce the power they have over his head space.

      I know it’s all easier said than done, but the only real power you have is to try to help him see where he does/doesn’t have control of things, and to help him realize that he does have some power over his situation. I feel for him, best of luck to you both.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Another friend on the same comment thread suggested he have a conversation with his wife about whether they could get by on a single income for a while so he could leave and look for something else without the added stress of his current job. She saw the thread and posted back that they could survive indefinitely on her income, and that it might be better to do that than have him constantly hovering on the edge of burnout. I’m hoping the two of them will sit down and have this conversation in person, and come up with a plan. (If I were in his shoes, I’d take a couple weeks off to decompress and start a job search, and save the “quitting with nothing lined up” option for a last resort.)

  101. DrTheLiz*

    So I have a workplace dilemma. Tl;dr how do you report somebody for inappropriate behavior in a very small office without causing more drama than the problem is?

    Setting: an academic group. The cast: my spouse (Garibaldi) , his friend the PhD student (Ivanova) and her PhD supervisor (Sheridan). The issue: Ivanova has a raging crush on Sheridan, which is fine, but Sheridan is treading dangerously close to reciprocation. They have lunches alone, they hug, he calls her “darling” from time to time – none of which is a deal-breaker in isolation, but when there are only ten years between them and she has the hugest crush, it’s … awkward.

    Further complicating the issue somewhat, spouse and I were only told about any of this in the strictest confidence, and since academic departments are both small and exceedingly gossipy if he says anything to either Sheridan or Sheridan’s boss (Clarke?) he’s sure it will get back to Ivanova that he said something, meaning that there won’t be anyone in the department she trusts if something outright untoward happens. Also, we’re both a bit worried that if it gets out that Sheridan and Ivanova were closer than ideal, she’ll get a reputation as a home-wrecker because the rumors won’t be about the two of them innocently flirting. Besides which, Sheridan hasn’t done anything wrong as such – he’s just a bit too close in this particular case.

    On the “do say something” side, they’ve been working together for a year and seem to be getting closer, they have three more to go and it would be exceptionally awful for power dynamics, objectivity, etc etc if they did sleep together. When your “line manager” has sole and total power over your work and can effectively deny you a career, “sleeping with the boss” is an even worse idea than usual.

    In an ideal world, I’d be a fairy on Sheridan’s shoulder and tell him that this doesn’t look good and he’d be well-advised to put a bit of distance in there, but that’s not the world I’m living in. Advice?

    1. NeonFireworks*

      Oh, darn, this is tough. I watched a similar thing happen between a pair of people in academia (a male faculty member and a female graduate student who got too close), and what happened was that two of Sheridan’s superiors/mentors (well aware of the situation) discussed it between themselves and then one of them took him aside and told him to take a huge step back and knock it the heck off and he complied. But this requires awesome superiors/mentors who have been told about the situation, or who have noticed.

    3. Llellayena*

      As someone who was a PsiCop for Halloween, I salute your references! (no one at work understood…)

      Has Garibaldi seen any of this behavior for himself, or has Ivanova mentioned her crush to him? If so, as Ivonova’s friend, he can mention to her that acting that close could cause perception problems and workplace respect issues. I know it’s better to talk to Sheridan, but that should probably come from someone who’s closer to him (or senior/equal).

      1. DrTheLiz*

        Garibaldi has both been confided in by Ivanova and seen Sheridan being a bit too cozy over lunch. The reason he hasn’t said anything to her is that he wants her to have somebody to talk to if something goes horrendously wrong. He is, very nominally, a peer of Sheridan’s but they aren’t close. (I’m also less concerned about workplace perception issues than I am that a year down the line they’ll sleep together and the resulting implosion will ruin Ivanova’s degree/career, but that’s the kind of thing that’s hard to explain to somebody with a crush).

        The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father.

        1. valentine*

          Why doesn’t Garibaldi tell her to cool it way down? Why would you want to intercede on Sheridan’s side instead of Ivanova’s? Isn’t it easier for her to behave professionally than for your husband or you to knock back every weirdo supervisor?

    4. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Your husband could tell his friend it’s a bad idea and she may or may not listen.

      As far as reporting, I don’t think you or you husband have any standing to do so. Your like 3 steps removed because you only know this through your husband, correct? And it’s your husband’s friend and HER advisor? Not your husband’s advisor, correct? So while it’s got a great look for Sheridan or Ivanovo, for your husband it would fall under None of His Beeswax or Not my Circus, Not my Monkeys IMO.

      So maybe you both just ignore it and don’t inflame the drama llama? Or at best he says a private word to his friend which she will mos likely ignore and be mad at him and you are back to NMC,NMM territory.

  102. Unrealistic*

    So i have an issue I’m not sure how to address at work. I was hired as a buyer that ‘helps out’ in other areas. The reality is I do literally everything – from being the bosses PA, to operations, buying, scheduling, reception, sales, outside sales CSR, logistics (including international) etc. I’m a mat leave coverage with 3 months training with the lady before she left and we are swamped. Like our shop isn’t closing on weekends swamped and I am struggling to keep up. I work with another person who works 4 days a week, shes technically the office manager, and all she does is enter in AR and AP (I do everything else up to giving to her to enter) and write cheques, and collections – I send out the invoices she types and have to make up the invoice packages. I can’t keep up with the work load, its just not feasible for me to do 90% of the day to day everything and get it all done when I’m not allowed to work overtime. The lady I took over for worked 10-12 hour days and had been doing it for 8 years (and became wonder woman at it, seriously) and I’m continuously being talked to about how I’m not keeping up and dropping the ball and not doing well enough. I’m not sure how to approach this with them. It’s too much for one person to take on, and I don’t have the 8 years of doing this job industry knowledge to go faster, I do the best I can – I’m hitting about 75% of my work load but there are things falling through the cracks. I’ve tried to hand off some of the AP and AR, but it keeps coming back as she ‘won’t just take over emailing’ (there’s a lot more to it, which she refuses to learn)

    Long story short – how do I approach my bosses that I either need to have some of it taken off my plate or I need to be allowed to work overtime? It’s unrealistic that with 6 months in this industry I can get everything the lady with 8 could in 10-20 hours less a week. There’s a lot of technical information I don’t have that slows me down.

    1. BRR*

      Can you say it took her 10-12 hours to do what they’re expecting you to do in 8 and ask what can be shifted off or if you can work overtime?

    2. Kathenus*

      Enlist your bosses more deliberately in finding a solution. Don’t just make comments or say you have too much on your plate. Schedule a meeting about prioritization of responsibilities. Go to it prepared, here are my five main duties and approximately how much time each one takes per day or per week. As you can see, I have 60 hours/week of tasks and 40 hours of work time. I need you to prioritize for me where my 40 hours a week should be spent. Don’t accept ‘just fit it all in’ if it’s not possible. If it is possible, but at a lower standard, be very clear about that and what standard you can achieve. Then back the meeting up with an email to them with what your plan is going forward for how you spend your time.

    3. Jessi*

      I think you might just have to do it. I would go in with how you like the job but then use the technique of I have x hours and am only managing 75%. Some of it is going to fall through the cracks if I don’t get help or more time – or both. I would highlight that Mat leave lady has had eight years to learn how this works and perfect her skills but you are only six months in and while you are getting better/ faster you still need some help. Also if mat leave lady was able to work OT -maybe point out that she was working 12 hour days and you only have 8?

      I would go in with a list of tasks that you struggle with the most/ find the most time consuming or feel would fit into the office mangers work flow the best. If they refuse then circle back to well I don’t have time for it all so what would you like me to drop

  103. Clever Alias*

    Tips on not ruining your career/reputation in the interim between realizing you’re too burn out to bounce back at your current company and finding a new job?

    I’m finding it so so hard to get myself to work, to do good work, and to care. But job hunting is taking a bit.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Do you have a lot of leave / sick time saved up? I started taking every Friday off and took a few big splashy vacations. My boss allowed it because he could tell I was close to the edge and he was going to lose me anyway. It took the edge off my burnout while I waited out the job search, which took a lot longer than I’d anticipated (almost a year).

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Also, I negotiated HARD with new job when I finally got an offer to have a delayed start date. I really, really needed that time or I would have ended up in the exact same boat at my new job.

    2. Rincat*

      It helped to remind myself that by doing a good job at my current workplace, I was doing a favor to my future self and it would make getting a new job easier if I maintained a good relationship with my current boss and job. And by “good” I mean, more like “good enough”. You don’t need to operate at rock star levels, especially if you are low on energy. But just try to take it slow, take deep breaths, do a “good enough” job at your tasks.

      Also, I had to be mindful of my attitude, and it helped to try to not talk before I had a chance to think about things. I was really burned out at my last job, and very snippy and negative. I got noticeably more quiet, but also I wasn’t being rude to people and contained my attitude.

  104. Overeducated*

    I’m getting approval to go stay at what I think of as Grown Up Camp for a week-long training at the end of the month and I’m both excited and a little guilty! It’s a beautiful training center tucked away in some mountains about 1.5-2 hours away depending on traffic, with a gorgeous setting, beautiful main building, and great cafeteria. I’ve been there for single-day events and swore I’d keep my eyes out for a chance to actually stay there for training. Well, a brand-new training in my field is being held there, so I get to go! I’m excited about actually getting to stay there, getting to take this totally new course created out of demand from the field, and the networking possibilities I’ll have.

    I’m feeling guilty that I’m spending more money staying overnight and eating there than I would have to if I rented a car to drive 3-4 hours round trip every day, packed granola bars for breakfast and pb&js for lunch, and ate a late dinner at home. (I’m also leaving my family for four nights instead of spending one hour a day with my kid while she’s awake.) Even though my supervisor approved it, and others from my area are also staying overnight – including the local colleague who’s giving me a ride so I don’t have to rent a car, and another who lives 45 minutes closer to the training facility – I’m so used to shoestring grad student travel that I feel a bit like I’m taking advantage by planning for what’s reasonable within budget instead of what will save my employer the maximum. This is just being a professional…right?

    Has anyone else had great work travel/training experiences? Do share!

    1. Anon From Here*

      For a few years I was with a group that had quarterly weekend-long meetings in New York City, a brief train ride from my location at the time. I had a favorite little boutique hotel I would stay at (now closed, a victim of the overall trend of NYC turning into nothing but a playground for tourists, trustafarian students, and ultra-rich residents), and I’d get to have dinner or see some art with pals who live in NYC. The quarterly meetings aside, those weekends were always a lovely break from the day-to-day and I really miss them!

    2. KR*

      Think of it like a safety issue. That much driving every day in addition to a full day of training can make you tired and more susceptible to accidents. Also if you’re hourly, the overtime for travel time plus paying you mileage might be more expensive than the hotel stay.
      I travel for work very often and for a while felt really guilty about extra hotel stays when I didn’t want to drive tired or going out to a restaurant for dinner versus getting fast food when I really don’t like most fast food and it makes me sick to eat it regularly, but soon realized that by taking extra time and money travelling I was reducing my chances of getting sick by eating well and I was reducing my risk of a traffic accident by making sure I wasn’t driving tired. Also, because I’m a CA employee and get paid overtime for anything over 8hrs a day and double time after 12 hrs, it’s often cheaper for my company if I stop in a hotel for the night.

      1. Overeducated*

        That’s very true about safety (overtime pay is not a factor in my case). My workplace actually has a policy about how much driving you can add on to a workday to reduce accidents, and I’d have had about 15 minutes of wiggle room each way on this trip, but any longer traffic delays would have put me in violation. And I feel like in the winter, you can count on there being at least one bad traffic or weather event in a given week. So thanks for that reminder that not trying to cut it so close isn’t a bad thing.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      And consider – How much learning would you be able to do on day 3 if you’re eating granola bars and driving 4 hours a day in addition to sitting in the workshops? I’m betting not a whole dang lot; you’d be exhausted. And THAT would be the waste of money. Your employer is getting something out of you gaining this knowledge, and it’s worth it to them to help you learn it as easily as possible. Plus, you’d have to say goodbye to networking after hours. You’d have to jump straight into your car and head home. Being offsite would mean a lot of missed opportunities for you. Go forth, guilt-free. Eat well, rest well, network well, and wring every last possible drop you can out of the conference – that’s definitely not a waste!

      1. valentine*

        Go and enjoy it immensely. Take pictures. Make videos. Enjoy them later. Go back if you still love it. Your employer is thrilled to spend the money on such a good rep: both you and the impression you’ll give by being so happy to be there.

  105. Tiny Orchid*

    I feel like I’m trying to understand the intersection between imposter syndrome, imposter syndrome manifesting as me not feeling confident and my boss picking up on that and treating me like I don’t know what I’m doing, actually not knowing what I’m doing, and a personality mismatch. Going into a performance review next week and I don’t feel confident about it. Any advice/guiding questions to think/journal about would be super appreciated!

    1. Reba*

      I’m presuming that you are new-ish in your position–is that right? If so, I’d try to map out with your boss a plan for learning the ropes: define the areas of your job and what it will take to learn them. What are the things you are aware of that you need to work on, and what are the “unknown unknowns”? Talk with your boss and with peers if possible about what’s a reasonable time frame to get up to speed. Good luck!

      Impostor syndrome generally means feeling like a fraud and you’re afraid of being exposed as such. For example, high achieving people downplay their own excellent work as being due to chance or to others overestimating them. You sound not quite like that, but rather like you are overwhelmed and maybe not adequately supported.

    2. ..Kat..*

      See your performance review as a chance to improve. Performance reviews are a great chance to get clarity from your manager on how you are doing. Much better to get this feedback than be kept in the dark! Ask for examples of what you did/didn’t do and what you should do instead. (Make sure you don’t seem to be just arguing.) at the end, thank your boss for the feedback. Tell her you will think about what she has told you, and you will touch base with her if you have more questions on how to improve.

  106. Mila*

    My problem isn’t really a problem, but more anxiety about a potential problem in the future?

    I got hired to my position about two weeks before another person (“Luna”) was hired for the exact same job description/title. We share duties equally, and for the most part, we are assigned work based on who has more room on their plate at any given moment. Luna and I get along really well, and we were actually in the same grad program, so we knew each other before we started. Our company is growing pretty quickly, and “Hermione,” who had the job title Luna and I both have before we were hired (Hermione is also from our grad program, for what it’s worth) was promoted about 6 months after she started.

    As of right now, I don’t sense any competition between Luna and I, but I’m worried that as we both continue in the company, we will be competing for the same promotion. Though Hermione was promoted quickly, I find it highly unlikely that a) Luna or I will be promoted as quickly, and b) we would both be promoted at the same time. I don’t want competition for a promotion to get in the way of the friendship Luna and I have, but I obviously also need to keep my career goals and progression in mind. Any advice on not letting the possibility of one of us getting promoted over the other get in the way of friendly work relationships?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      I think you’re overthinking this. You really don’t know what will happen – I find a lot of turnover in first jobs, so you or this other person could both be gone in a year for any number of reasons! Maybe one or both of you will realize this isn’t what you wanted to do.

  107. hello.cupcake*

    Long time reader, first time poster!

    Just stopping by to offer a sincere thanks to Alison and this community for the thoughtful and practical advice.
    After 12 years in my current position, I updated my resume and cover letter to submit for a position that’s a bit of a reach within my field. I was contacted almost immediately, and followed more Ask a Manager advice to prep for my phone interview yesterday. It went well, and am scheduled for an in person interview next week. No matter what happens, I’ve found AAM to be a fantastic resource that’s made me much more confident and professional in my pursuit of a career growth opportunity.

  108. AeroEngineer*

    So I have a bird in the hand vs a falcon in the bush issue.

    Job A: A major company, an amazing program/job, excellent short and long term growth potential with excellent salary and benefits. Was told that I should hear in a couple days from Oct 25, but I (and a few others) have not heard yet, while everyone else has. This indicates that I might be getting an offer soon as no engineers have gotten offers yet, but I have no idea when it will come (and if). Been a huge application process and this is the very end. Location is unknown right now, but any location out of the options will be acceptable, and the preference I put in is the same city as job B.

    Job B: Interviewed Wednesday, got a phone call today for the second round Monday. Decent job, sounds interesting, and much better direction than my current job. Much (much) lower salary than 1, but 25% better than what I have now. The company has really low reviews on glassdoor for things which do concern me, but this more likely would be a 2-3 year position so then some things matter less, and would be a great stepping stone. Definitely in a city which I want to move to asap.

    I am in the beginning of my career with a year of solid work and a masters degree. The issue is that most likely I will get an offer from Job B early next week, and I have no idea when I will hear from Job A as they went radio silent (Weirdly) after their email in October. I and I know some other people asked for an update at the beginning of this week for a new timeline as we all are getting majorly time crunched (the whole application process is way over time), but not a peep from the organization group even though they were awesome about emailing and answering stuff like this before.

    I would take job A in a heartbeat, and Job B it will depend on what they offer me besides pure salary, but I am 99% sure I take it, especially as I have no other decent options. Timeline for Job B is relatively known, Job A completely unknown, they could email tonight or next week.

    So in short, I need some other points of view on this, as I am starting to go crazy thinking about it.

    Start date is exactly the same and the ideal date.

    1. BRR*

      Ask Job B for a few days to think it over and email Job A again to say you have a pending offer but that Job A is your first choice and ask if they have an update.

    2. Kathenus*

      Agree with BRR. Don’t ask for an update until/unless you get an offer from job B. If you do, let job A know that you have another offer, but that they (job A) are your top choice and ask if it’s possible to get a timeline for a decision. In the meantime, begin deciding what you’ll do if job A can’t give you a timeline, or the timeline is too long for the job B decision. Good luck!

  109. Skewed Data*

    Regarding researching salary requirements and salary offers: does anyone have experience from the viewpoint of living “too close and yet too far” from a major city?

    For example, say I live an hour’s drive from Chicago. Commuting to Chicago is technically feasible, but outside what I’m realistically willing to do. The job opportunities in my semi-rural/partly suburban area are limited. Job searching online is chock full of Chicago opportunities, with “big city” salaries to match. The reality of local options is very slim, though, and the salaries offered in those few options are all over the map. Companies seem to use the excuse that they “can’t pay Chicago money” to just pluck a salary out of thin air, with no real pattern of local data to back them up (and thus no good arguments I can use against them).

    All the typical ways to research (US BLS, Glassdoor, Salary, etc.) skew so hard towards Chicago proper that they aren’t helping.

    1. It's me*

      can you research the cost of living in your city vs Chicago and then use that ratio to calculate what salaries in Chicago would get you in your suburb? Or, compare to cities with similar costs of living?

    2. BRR*

      I would look for as many job posting that list salary as you can find. Even the ones that aren’t relevant to your field can give you a sense of what jobs pay in your area.

  110. Qwertyuiop*

    I work with a lot of scientists, engineers, and lab people… my background is in the arts and well, we’re different people. I’m always friendly and polite, but some of them either don’t talk or they only talk to each other. Any tips on how to connect with them without trying too hard or scaring them?

    1. LCL*

      Bond through pop culture. If you can get them to talk about something they like, and you can add something to the discussion from the artist perspective, you’re in.

      1. KX*

        I play Pokemon Go with people at work I never would have interacted with, for lack of professional opportunity. It gets us out in groups for short breaks, and gives us something not too personal to talk about but still to talk about, and it is colorful and silly and fun. It’s a good icebreaker. Even if we aren’t FRIENDS friends, and won’t get projects together, now we have some common, low stakes goals we can reach for together.

    2. CheeryO*

      Do you have happy hours or other team-building events where you could try to socialize in a different setting? This engineer is overly serious and focused at work and tends to be a little anti-social, but I really enjoy chatting with people outside of work, and those connections make it easier to have those little water cooler chats during the day.

    3. Gumby*

      I kind of accidentally said something when conversation at yet another happy hour turned to technical stuff way over my head. (“Every time we’re here we end up talking about work” or something like that.) It was an aside to one person, and I didn’t really mean to be complaining, but after that the one person started making an effort to steer conversations to more general topics – books, travel, the news, tv shows.

      Though it might not be a completely parallel situation. I wouldn’t say they only talk to each other just that it doesn’t occur to them to seek me out for conversations other than my job (which does overlap with theirs) and their natural conversational topics are focused on things that I don’t understand.

  111. ExceptionToTheRule*

    After 20+ years in local broadcasting, I’m considering getting out and changing industries.

    It’ll be a process: update the resume, identify the types of jobs I think I’m qualified for, etc… but I was wondering if anyone has suggestions for their preferred general job-hunting websites or do you feel it’s best to target specific companies? I do intend to leverage my network when it’s time, but I want to get a feel for what the job market looks like.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I was a broadcast journalism major that quickly left that field, so hopefully this is useful :)

      The biggest thing I found was that I have a skillset that works in A LOT of places. Any kind of title with “Communications” is usually an easy fit. I have held roles in technical writing, videography, training (for how to use a software), public relations/community relations (public face of the company type thing), and marketing.

      If the regions they cover are relevant to you, the Big Shoes Network is an absolutely *great* resource to get ideas on Communications type positions. I also like Hoojobs (US nationwide) and PRCrossing (US nationwide and some international) for communications-specific job boards.

  112. Ok_Go_West*

    Curious to hear people’s opinions: Is it reasonable or common for comms / social media teams to ask other employees to generate content for them, such as taking pictures or blogging? My husband has worked in comms and if he needed pictures, he would send someone from his team to take them. However, in my office, our comms person is always asking employees I supervise to pictures of their Teapot Training Sessions, etc, and submit them to comms for use on social media. I never enforce these requests because I want my employees to focus on their work and I think having to do your job while also taking photos of it is distracting. But maybe I’m being a stick-in-the-mud.

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Uggghh as the programs person, I am constantly battling comms who thinks it would be “so fun” if I provided endless content for them – photos! Blog posts! Social media twitters or whatever! Or if I organized elaborate opportunities for them to come “out in the field” and generate their own content on my time. I often wonder what the heck the point of the comms department really is since apparently I’m supposed to produce all the material in addition to actually grooming those llamas (bitter rant over).

    2. Temperance*

      Ugh, YES. I seriously hate this from Marketing. They always want us to give them blurbs, photos, etc. When i’m working, I’m not thinking about taking photos, I’m working and often caught up in problem-solving.

      I especially am uncooperative when I’m stuck at a charitable event or something where someone from Marketing should attend, but has chosen not to. Sorry, but if you aren’t doing my job, I’m not doing yours.

    3. tink*

      Our comms/social media team is REALLY small, so we’re expected to contribute content we want people to see. They come out to events and things as they can as well, but there are… maybe 4 of them for ~30 branches in the city.

    4. Overeducated*

      Communications is one of my “other duties as assigned,” since our central comms department mainly deals with organizational-level strategy, media relations, and vetting content others produce, and I ask this kind of thing all the time! I’d love to go out and do it myself, but my job is supporting projects around the country from my office, not actually going on site visits, so I ask the people out in the field to send back photos or share their content with me. It’s not to get people in the middle of work to take photos instead of doing their work though, it’s to say “hey if you’re documenting or sharing this, we want to amplify your good work.” Most of the time they’re not, and I get nothing, and that’s fine, it’s just to put that idea in their head that “oh, maybe I’ll email this to Overeducated” if they’re downloading pictures or posting online themselves.

      1. Mouse in the House*

        Agreed! This is the approach our comms team takes. Basically, if there’s an event that you, field employee, are hosting, please take photos. Seems reasonable to me.

      2. Marion Ravenwood*

        Comms person here (technically PR, but I still do lots of non-PR comms stuff due to the small size of our team), and I take this approach for similar reasons. In an ideal world I’d be going and taking the photos myself, and I do do that if I’m going along to do social media or support press activity, but having to concentrate on strategy and public/media relations stuff means there isn’t always time for that, so if teams are having events I’ll say ‘no pressure but if you have any pictures we’d love to share them on the main social media channels/in our internal email so we can promote what you’re doing’. No big deal if they’re not though, events are hectic and often people simply don’t have time to remember to take a few snaps.

        I’d also ask them to give me some key points for a blog or a reactive statement, which I’ll write up and then ask them to check it’s accurate before we put it out, but that’s because they’re the experts in the campaign area and I’m not! And I definitely wouldn’t ask teams to write their own social media posts, that’s comms’ job.

    5. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I think it depends on what sort of content and how many resources the comms person/team has. My university is big, but we have one person in Public Affairs to do the university social media. He needs the colleges to at least let him know what they are up to, and since he can’t be everywhere either at once or every time something happens on or off campus, provide some photos or content. The other problem is that Public Affairs are experts in…well…public affairs, and not always knowledgeable about the myriad of topics around campus — like research, economics, medicine, or technology — so they rely on the real experts to explain what they’re doing. I imagine if a company is big enough, the marketing department has similar issues — they are few while the news topics are many and they aren’t experts in all subjects.

    6. EddieSherbert*

      Seconding the “size matters” comments. My department of 3 people is ‘Communications’… we’re expected to cover all social media, marketing materials, training materials (internal and external, video and documentation), website management for three websites (up to and including web design), etc.

      We definitely ask people to contribute things, or far less things would get done!

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, it’s not your fault at all, but I think my issue is that, come review time, those activities that I did for the comms team are not at all regarded as an achievement. So comms team is looking good because they hit their engagement metrics or whatever (using content they get me to produce for them), but I’m only evaluated on the number of llamas I groomed. That’s not comms’ fault, but it is why I’m never thrilled to be roped into to comms stuff.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Ah, that makes sense.

          To me, it depends on how much they’re asking from you and your team. I mean, if we’re talking a few every couple months I’m not sure that is an achievement that’s review worthy (sorry). But if it’s like a whole story of photos with notes on the process and potential captions that they want every week or even month, that’s A LOT, and yes, you’re doing most of the work.

          I’d say at least 90% of what I get/do with non-comms people is volunteer-based. I rarely have a situation where I can’t get at least one volunteer to take pictures or be in a video or do a Facebook Live or whatever… but a lot of those get them credit by default (obviously that’s Sandy from Sales in that video!). My stuff is also infrequent. For example, for video volunteers, I tell them I’ll need them for 1-2 hours about 2x a year and that’s worked out really well.

          Maybe there’s someone(s) on your team that likes taking photos or whatever it is and would enjoy being a designated volunteer for this? Then it might also be easier to give them credit/mark it as an achievement or growth in their review, since you’re their boss (and I assume the one doing the review) :)

        2. Overeducated*

          That’s fair, if you can’t find a way to have it count for recognition (e.g. “met minimum llama grooming metrics and should be rated higher due to going above and beyond in promoting llama grooming program [quote comms metrics]”), you can just ignore them. A huge part of my last job literally was trying to get out into the field with people doing the work and create content from that, and a lot of the time it didn’t work out because the program people didn’t have time or couldn’t plan ahead for me to come out and join them, but I took no offense at their focusing on their core duties, and I hope they didn’t take offense at me trying to find ways to do mine.

        3. Grapey*

          Are you sure you’re solely mesaured on llama’s groomed? You could spin it during reviews as “worked with external communications team which shows my initiave in company wide engagement” or something like that.

      2. Temperance*

        I get kind of annoyed with this because I constantly hear how great our Marketing people are, and we’re the ones doing the legwork on a lot of what they are getting praised on.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          Yeah, in some cases the comms people in our office are literally just uploading the photos I took and the captions I wrote to our social media platform, but it’s still “their” product at the end of the day.

    7. Mouse in the House*

      Once a year, we’re allowed to do outdoor surveying work for a week, which basically involves hiking and being out in nature and having an awesome time. It is legitimate work that needs to be done but also a lot of fun. That’s the only time we’re absolutely required to send photos to the social media/comms team and I think that’s reasonable.

      We also celebrate things like National Teapot Day and National Teapot Surveying Day–we’re encouraged but not required to send photos if we end up attending an event on those days.

      Those are the main times we get asked. There’s someone in the office who loves photography and sends the comms. team photos to use, but it’s because he wants to, not that he’s required to.

      I think there’s a line here, which probably involves using common sense to figure out (seems like your Comms. team might be short on that?).

    8. Grapey*

      You are not a stick in the mud. The few exceptions I can think of are if your workplace/product is especially intersting and your employees are eager to do it. I work in high tech stuff and sometimes our employees (who actually enjoy their job) take pictures on their own and are happy to share them.

      Otherwise the comms team is there to do the communication. That’s the name of the department.

    9. theguvnah*

      i kind of think you are being a stick in the mud, but it sounds like org culture differences. This is very normal in my small-ish nonprofit.

      If your team is proud of their work they might enjoy the chance to have it shared on social. Taking a picture isn’t really an imposition for most people! And don’t you want the good work of your team shared?

  113. Fiona*

    Can anyone point me to the letter about getting requests for references that are just a list of long questions as opposed to the standard of a short phone call? (Meaning, you are the reference and you need to fill out a long questionnaire). My husband just got one of these and he’s really annoyed by it. I wanted to point him to Alison’s answer.

  114. Anonymeece*

    I recently had to go on leave because I had a more or less nervous breakdown.* On the bright side, my boss is actually taking my workload overload seriously now, but I’m also trying to commit to strategies to help me keep a good work-life balance.

    Two questions:

    1. What general strategies do you use to de-stress at work or from work?
    2. I’m exempt, which means if I need to work past 40 hours a week, I do. But I’m also trying to commit to trying to stay within 40 hours just so I don’t burn out again. How do y’all handle that? When is it necessary to stay after, and when is it part of a declining work-life balance?

    * I ended up crying non-stop for 8 hours one Sunday night which… I don’t normally cry at all, so that was weird and upsetting, and then was snapping at people and generally a horrid person to be around with my ceaseless negativity.

    1. FS*

      I’m replying to this with both a response and a question because I came to this forum to post something similar.

      1. Destressing at work: I always take my lunch hour, almost without fail. I allow my brain to decompress for at least a 1/2 hour. I listen to music, podcasts, etc. I leave early sometimes. I take vacation! I tell myself that if I don’t get xxx done, nothing bad will happen (e.g. nobody’s dying on an operating table).

      2. I would say that you should expect to stay after work to meet specific deadlines occasionally. And these need to be hard deadlines (e.g. you have an external board meeting that you need to have materials in by x date). Otherwise, you should go home after 40 hours give or take. There is always work to be done, so if you don’t set some general rules about when to stay late, you could stay late every day and then its an encroachment on work/life balance. Remember that work/life balance also includes taking vacation and sick time when you need it! If you find yourself with too many hard deadlines than you need to assess how well you are setting project timelines because you can’t realistically get everything done.

      Now for my question for you: My coworker just recently had a nervous breakdown due to significant stress at work; I consider this coworker a friend and we’ve hung out outside of work and talked about how she was struggling and overwhelmed with the workload and how unhappy she was. Our boss is very demanding, but at the same time my experience with her is that she does allow for work-life balance as long as you put up the boundaries. My boss was getting ready to fire my coworker before she had a breakdown and has been asking me whether I knew anything about how my coworker was doing. I do not want to tell my boss that I was friends with this coworker outside of work but at the same time I feel like I probably should let my boss know that I knew my coworker was doing badly. So, my question to you – if you had a friend outside of work that knew about your stress and it lead to a breakdown, would you want your coworker to keep it private that you were friends outside of work? I’m feeling really torn about how to handle this situation.

      1. Anonymeece*

        Thanks! That’s helpful. I sometimes feel guilty that I’m taking too much sick time/vacation, even though I have it, and my boss isn’t always great about letting us take vacation. I’m the sole person in charge of my department, so it feels like it’s never a good time to be out, but you’re right. I need to be better about setting boundaries and taking that time.

        For your question: Can you let your boss know carefully that you knew your coworker was under stress without letting on you’re friends outside of work? You could say something like, “I’ve noticed that she seemed very stressed at work” or something very general that makes it sound like things you noticed at work and doesn’t disclose anything that your friend told you. You can also ask your friend how much she feels comfortable with you disclosing. Personally, I wouldn’t want someone to disclose all that I had told them in confidence, but I’d be okay with a more general, “Yup, she definitely seemed stressed and needed a vacation!” type of response, which would be enough to hopefully tip off boss that boss wasn’t paying attention, but not disclosing that I was a hair’s breath away from quitting.

        Do you know why your boss wants to know? Is this something likely to get you or your friend in trouble? If so, I would stick to a more neutral, “X had seemed stressed, but I had no idea that it was to this extent” (especially if it’s true – everyone at work knew I was stressed, but didn’t really expect me to have to go on leave stressed, either).

    2. wingmaster*

      How I de-stress at work:
      1. Having a deskercise routine – Usually this consists of stretches, desk push ups, and walking around the building
      2. Organizing my office/desk where I’m most comfortable and focused
      3. Becoming ergonomically correct
      4. Having snacks in my little shelf helps
      5. Actually getting myself to join my co-workers for drinks after work or accept any fun invites
      6. Giving myself some damn credit of doing a good job at work

  115. Everdene*

    As there are several librarians in the commentariat I wanted to share this article thanking you for the bravery and effort to preserve truth/freedom/controversial content and future historical sources. Also, how much of this kind of stuff do you see as part of your professional responsibility?

  116. Wemberly*

    What are intermediate steps when you’re managing someone between talking to them about a problem (esp. a problem on the more minor end of things) and firing them for said problem? Especially when you’re working with interns, who are often new to professional norms, aren’t really thinking about things like “doing poorly here means a bad reference”, are with you for only a short period of time (3-6 months), and are interning for class credit? I can have a couple of talks that escalate in seriousness and point to future consequences like a bad reference, but in the end I don’t feel like I have anywhere to go besides firing them from the internship and denying them class credit, which feels like such a nuclear option.

    Egregious behavior is an easier call, but what about, say, an intern who regularly comes in juuuuuust a little bit late and thus sometimes disrupts the beginnings of meetings they need to be at? Or an intern who is supposed to send weekly progress reports to someone and forgets 50% of the time? Does it change if they always do their work well and just forget about the report vs. do their work at an average or mediocre level and forget to send their report? Or an intern who started off really poorly, has been improving, but still struggles sometimes and has used up everyone’s goodwill for normal mistakes/bobbles?

    In each situation I’ve talked with them about the problem and expectations going forward, and usually it improves at least a little bit, but either they backslide or they’re still not where they need to be. Since they’re new to the working world most still have the “points off” calculation in their heads from school – I don’t know if this is true for all of them but a number have expressed concern that their grade would be lowered when I’ve talked with them about a problem and were shocked to learn that it’s credit/no credit, points off or a lower grade isn’t an option. I know they’re learning, I want to help them learn, but some really walk that line between “helping people learn means everything won’t run perfectly smoothly” and “this is actually impeding our work”. The internship program is new and I’m new to managing, though I have previous teaching experience and that’s how I got this job.

    1. AnotherLibrarian*

      I don’t work with interns. I do work with student assistants.

      My thoughts: Students who work well, but forget to send in their report should get more slack than those who work poorly and forget to send in their report. There’s nothing wrong with saying to a student that they need to be on time, but especially need to be on time to meetings.

      One thing I would wonder, is how blunt are you being? I think there’s a tendency to soften language when speaking to students and you have to avoid that. Yes, sometimes interns are more of a hindrance than a help, but that’s the price of having free labor. You have to decide if/what you can get from them.

      1. Wemberly*

        I appreciate the comment that someone who does their work well gets more slack than someone who doesn’t. I do tell the interns “you need to be on time” “you need to send in your reports every Friday” etc., the question comes down to the consequences of not doing whatever it is. I do think I need to be more blunt in terms of laying out what will happen if they don’t change whatever behavior, but part of the challenge is that the only place I feel like I can go is “if you do not send in your report/show up late for a meeting/whatever you will be fired from the internship with no credit”. Maybe that’s just where I need to go, maybe the jump is indeed from “this needs to change” to “if this doesn’t change you’ll be fired” to “you’re fired”, but a big part of me wants another intermediate step. It feels so strange to me to say “Fergusina, you were 5 minutes late to the meeting, the pattern of lateness means we will not be finishing out your internship and you will not receive credit”.

        1. WellRed*

          “Part of succeeding in tjis role requires your work to be completed on time and for you to at work and ready to go at 9am. Can you do that or would it make more sense to end the internship now?”

        2. Reba*

          Maybe you can set a deadline? If this doesn’t change immediately, if this doesn’t change in two weeks…. Or, frame the first discussion as a warning, if we have to talk about this again it’s no credit. Also make it clear that backsliding is not acceptable, and be really super spelling-it-all-out pedantic about what behavior you need to see. For example, “When you’re late to meetings it disrupts other people,” may not get across the message that “you need to be on time for every meeting–that means you need to plan to get here well in advance.”

          I can definitely understand your feeling about that being a kind of a cliff, but since they are with you for a limited time it doesn’t seem appropriate to do a PIP or other longer-term kinds of coaching.

          1. valentine*

            They sound awful enough to fire now. I don’t think they’re going to shape up with you, Wemberly, but maybe the firing will make them determine to do better elsewhere. For future interns, Reba’s schedule sounds good.

            1. Wemberly*

              Thanks all, I’m hearing that I need to get more comfortable with the “cliff” (good way to phrase it Reba!). Will have more of a “what to do” structure in place for myself as I’m working with the next batch.

              I should say that mostly (and most of) our interns are lovely, hard-working, conscientious people. Even the ones with these problems seem overwhelmed more than they seem lazy or malicious.

  117. OneWeepyEye*

    Do you all have any thoughts on the best time to mention your close friend or family member is applying for a job at your company? It’s a temp to hire position, so the initial candidate vetting will be done through an agency. Also, although I would physically work relatively close to them if they are hired, we would not be on the same team or have the same manager (same grandboss, though). I don’t want to encourage anyone to hire them based solely on my relationship with them but I think not disclosing my relationship is akin to lying. This is new territory for me and any advice would be appeciated.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I typically have just sent our company recruiter a quick Skype message (or email or whatever) to say “Hey Joe! I wanted to let you know my brother, Bob Loblaw, is applying for the Llama Wrangler position. Thanks!”

      And he usually responds back with some nice statement (That’s great! Thanks for letting me know! I’ll note it) and that’s that. No big deal :)

      1. OneWeepyEye*

        So just a heads up to let them know and let them do what they need to with the information. I think I like that. Thank you.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Yeah, if I happen to have worked with them or feel I could give a work reference, I’ll throw in something extra, but usually (for family) I don’t have that connection with them – so it’s just an informational note.

  118. Mina*

    I used to work for a really terrible, demeaning manager but luckily was able to change my reporting line after about three years. His new boss asked to meet with me, and a few other people, to collect feedback on what it’s like to work with him. She said it was confidential, so I shared my honest opinions. Recently she emailed me a summary of my feedback and said she wants to talk through it verbally with my ex-manager for the sake of his “development”, naming me as one of her sources and giving specific examples I shared. I told her I didn’t feel comfortable with this because when he was my manager, I participated in a 360 about him and he reacted very badly to it. He is volatile and tends to retaliate when angry. However, she pushed back saying that she can’t bring about change without naming the people who provided feedback or giving specific examples. Now I regret talking to her at all. Am I being unreasonable and uncooperative? It just doesn’t seem fair to ask employees to put themselves in uncomfortable positions for the sake of trying to reform a problematic manager who has already received feedback on their performance (e.g. the 360) and has not changed.

    1. fposte*

      You’re not being unreasonable. This is information you provided on condition of confidentiality, and now she’s trying to pull the rug of confidentiality out from under you. Can you say something like “I understand what you’re asking, but I provided this information because I trusted your promise of confidentiality; I wouldn’t have given it otherwise, and I hope you’ll still honor that promise.”

    2. Morning Glory*

      If she said it was confidential, she’s operating in bad faith by seeming to not give you any choice on being outed.

      If she is giving you the final choice and just being pressury about it, I’d remind her she told you this was confidential, and hold firm.

      1. Psyche*

        I agree. Tell her that you never would have said anything if it were not confidential and that you are more concerned about retaliation than you are about change.

    3. LilySparrow*

      I agree with the others.

      “I would never have been so candid if I knew you were going to use my name. I only spoke freely because you promised me confidentiality. Manager has retaliated against me before, and I have reason to believe he will do so again if you use my name. I’m sorry that might make it harder for you to address the issues, but I am not willing to risk Manager lashing out at me again.”

    4. Kathenus*

      Hard agree with the others. If the promise of confidentiality was in writing, use that email to reply as well with the language proposed below about having only been candid due to the above assurance of confidentiality, and the fear of retaliation (noting that this has happened already with the 360). Even if the original promise was not in writing, your response should be so that you have documentation. Depending on the situation after that, bringing in HR or the new boss’s boss for support. This sucks, I hope you are able to resolve it.

  119. Cali*

    I have an office holiday question – I started at a new job in October where I am at a VP level. The only person with a more senior title than me in my office is an SVP. My boss works out of one of our offices in a different state. Both myself and the SVP run this locations office – we manage different teams but we are “in charge” of the office as a whole. Since this is a new company for me (and my most senior role to date), I am struggling with what to do this holiday season. I don’t know if I should bring small gifts/cards to just the team that I directly manage or the entire office since I technically oversee all of them to a degree (it’s not a huge office and this would be manageable for me) additionally I have always subscribed to the policy of not gifting up during the holidays however the SVP doesn’t supervise me and we work together so closely that it seems like that “gifting up” line doesn’t really apply.

    I have thought about asking her what the standard is for holidays in the office regarding gifts but I also don’t want her to feel like she has to buy me or anybody else anything if that’s not something she’s done in the past. I am likely overthinking this considerably but what would you all do?

    1. Muse of Ire*

      I would ask what is customary, but i also would consider buying a group gift that can be enjoyed by the whole office — a big box of fancy cookies or something like that.

  120. Beatrice*

    I am tearing my hair out.

    I’m trying to get cost information from an internal team, to figure out whether a project is viable, and they’re giving me the worst runaround I’ve ever gotten when trying to get internal information.

    My project would involve renting llamas for a few weeks. We rent llamas all the time, but normally for internal reasons, and they stay on our property. My project would involve subleasing them to a client and pasturing the llamas on the client’s property instead. And I need our livestock department to give me a rough rate for llama rental, to figure out whether this project even has any potential. I’ve been asking for two days, and I still don’t have a llama rental rate I can use. I’ve answered the following questions:

    -Is this project even legal? (Yes.)
    -Are you sure it’s legal? (Yes, I’ve done the same thing with cows already, and llamas and cows are legally equivalent. I’m dead certain it’s fine. You may be confusing llamas with alpacas, and that’s understandable, doing this with alpacas would be highly illegal. But it’s not alapacas, it’s llamas, and it’s fine to do this with llamas.)
    -We don’t believe it’s legal. Have you talked to someone in Compliance? (Cue an unnecessary conversation with a busy VP of Compliance to confirm it’s legal even though he knows I know it’s legal.)
    -Is this project even going to be profitable? We don’t think it will be profitable. (I can’t calculate that unless you tell. me. the. rental. rate.)
    -Please provide a detailed schedule of exactly what you want to do and when. (Here is a rough schedule. I can’t put a firm plan together until I know the project is going to be profitable, which I can’t do unless you tell. me. the. rental. rate.)
    -We don’t believe this will be profitable. Have you talked to Finance about it yet? We’re going to call Finance and tell them you’re wasting your time and ours on this. (I haven’t talked to finance, because I don’t have numbers, because you won’t tell. me. the. rental. rate.)

    I got a basic llama rental rate from someone who handles internally rented llamas, forwarded it to them, and asked if the cost to rent llamas to sublease to a client would be similar.

    -No, our cost to rent llamas to sublease would be AT LEAST 20x that. If you need a number today, that’s your number. (20X the internal rate is obviously an incorrect number. What on earth.)

    Will someone please just shoot me?

    1. Myrin*

      Oh my goodness, I’m frustrated just reading this!

      (Although I hope you forgive me when I say that I also found reading this highly entertaining. There’s just something about talking about llama-renting in all sincerety that cracks me right the hell up. Also your writing style, which is really amusing.)

      1. Beatrice*

        I’m glad someone’s getting some amusement out of it!

        They finally gave someone from Finance (not me) a rental rate, which was 10x the internal rate (and there are reasons why it would be higher, so that’s okay…20x was obviously baloney but 10x I can kinda see).

        Then they immediately wanted to know when the contract with the client would be finalized. For the project they were stonewalling me on this morning. Um. Dude. Give me a minute.

        1. The Ginger Ginger*

          O.M.G. This makes my head want to explode on your behalf. Once your wrap this up, does your company make a habit of post-mortems? Because I would bring this up during that process. If not, I’d be writing one of those extremely professional, non-shouty, simmering annoyance emails asking why it took so long to get this information, why your were given an incorrect quote, and why the correct quote went to someone else entirely, and was sent outside the proper submission process that YOU WERE WORKING ON. Loop in that busy VP if you have to, because that was absurd and should not be repeated.

  121. Tammy*

    TL;DR: An employee’s response to a performance management conversation makes me uncomfortable, and I can’t put my finger on why.

    Background: I’m a senior manager for a team of about 25 people. I have 4 direct reports who are front-line managers, and they collectively manage the individual contributors. This past week, we had a team member (“Mario”) who missed a deadline. The details aren’t important, but let’s say we’d contracted a deadline for glazing a batch of teapots for a key customer (based on both customer need and post-glazing work that another team needed to do) of Tuesday at 3pm. When the work wasn’t done in time, the account manager came to our space to ask about it and Mario told the account manager “I can’t talk to you right now; we have a team meeting in a few minutes.”

    In our workplace, this answer is unacceptable, and it was the latest in a series of instances of poor project management and poor judgment by Mario. So, Mario’s supervisor (“Luigi”) and I sat down with him to talk through what had happened and why it was not okay, and why the pattern of behavior caused us concern about Mario’s professional judgment and time management. Long story short, we’ve created a Performance Improvement Plan for Mario, and we’re working on the issues.

    Here’s where it gets weird. The next morning, Luigi came in to find a 4-pack of fancy beer on his desk, with a card wrapped to it with ribbon The card and gift were from Mario, and he’d written a fairly effusive thank-you note for the hard feedback. I got to my desk, and found a ribbon-wrapped card attached to a bottle of sparkling apple juice (my team knows I don’t drink alcohol very often). The card was printed on nice paper, with daisies, and the first part of it was a pretty effusive thank-you for the hard feedback, with language like “I know that couldn’t have been easy for you to say, and I appreciate it.” Mario ended by talking for almost a paragraph about how “inspiring” I am as a boss, and ended with something like “I hope today is a better day for you.”

    I appreciate the sentiment of Mario realizing he made a pretty big mistake and needs to fix it to re-establish trust, but the flowery card, the gifts, and the language about how “inspiring” I am to him just made me uncomfortable for reasons I can’t quite put my finger on. Adding a layer of complexity, I’m the most visible LGBTQ employee at my company, and as a result I’m involved with several cross-functional initiatives dealing with our corporate culture and diversity, so some of this sentiment isn’t unusual. But, like I said…the whole thing left me feeling vaguely icky for reasons I couldn’t put my finger on.

    Luigi and I handled it by returning the gifts to Mario and explainaing that, while we appreciated the thought, we didn’t feel comfortable accepting it. But I’m curious what you all think: Did I overthink this? Was I right to feel uncomfortable with the gesture? I’m second guessing myself like crazy, so thoughts are welcomed.

    1. Anonymeece*

      While it seems nice on the surface – and a good response to critical feedback – I think your gut was right and you did the right thing by returning the gifts. Just letting him know that you appreciate that he understands the problem and is going to fix it is enough will hopefully let him know that, even if it was well-intentioned, it was a weird gesture and too much; if it wasn’t well-intentioned, then you’re letting him know that presents won’t buy any special favors.

      Especially since he’s on a PIP, you don’t want him to think that you “owe” him a good rating.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      That is… weird. Is it possible it’s a cultural difference? If not that, maybe the guy is just confused about work norms on taking feedback, or got this horrible advice to “butter up a boss” from somewhere (the way people think attaching your resume to a pizza box will get you an interview). You and Luigi did right by returning the “gifts” and stating why you can’t accept, but I’d keep an eye on this guy for other odd behavior.

    4. LQ*

      I would be super uncomfortable. This feels entirely like a smokescreen designed to get you to Like Mario so you don’t fire him because you don’t fire people you Like. It might not be a conscious one but it really feels like a bs thing. I think you handled it correctly.
      You said the thing you’re worried about is poor judgement and this feels like very poor judgement. The first thing he does after being put on a PIP for poor professional judgement is something that is very poor professional judgement.

      When your manager puts you on a pip what you do is work harder, try to do the things they asked you to do, not bring them booze.

      1. Beatrice*

        The “I hope today is a better day” thing strikes me wrong, too. I can interpret it two ways – Mario thinks the feedback happened because Tammy was having a bad day, and he’s missing the point, or Mario thinks that he caused Tammy to have a bad day, and he may have, but the way to make sure that doesn’t happen today is to clean up his act, not “hope.”

          1. valentine*

            I don’t think he gets how bad and wrong his behavior was. Maybe have him put it in his own words at the next check-in.

    5. Psyche*

      I think part of the discomfort comes from the fact that the employee was very performative which makes it seem like he doesn’t really get it. He gets that you are unhappy and is trying to bribe you into liking him again. When an apology is over the top, it feels fake.

    6. LilySparrow*

      It left you uncomfortable because it was a shallow and immature attempt at manipulation.

      It’s the kind of note an 11-year old would give their parent after they got in trouble. I hope you have a better day? How about “I am taking XYZ steps to ensure I meet the goals in my PIP?”

      This guy is far off base in a wierd way.

  122. AnonAnon*

    A financial manager that works with our department is terrible to work with, especially for women. He’s rude, dismissive, and abusive. His one direct report recently quit (after being hired two months ago) with no job lined up because, in her words, “I won’t be his punching bag anymore.” I’ve personally witnessed him following another (female) colleague around yelling at her for 10+ minutes over a budgeting disagreement, and have heard him yelling at his direct report (also female) while in an adjoining conference room.

    So, my dilemma: I have been asked to participate in the hiring process to replace his direct report. I think I will decline, and be explicit with my bosses about why (“I don’t think Colleague should manage anyone at this point, and I’m not comfortable helping to put someone in what seems to be an abusive situation.”). But what if I participated — perhaps I could genuinely be helpful in helping people to screen themselves out of the running (and therefore help my organization hire someone who could genuinely thrive in this situation… if that person exists). How do you screen for “can tolerate an abusive boss?” and how do you give honest answers to applicants’ questions about the work environment/management style/office culture in front of the person who causes the work environment to be untenable?

    1. Anon From Here*

      I like to think I’d prefer to “boycott” participating in a hiring process for an abuser. Helping find someone to work for him kind of only enables his behavior, it seems to me. If you can genuinely do that without spending too much capital, I hope that’s what you choose to do, TBH.

    2. Kathenus*

      I think your plan to talk to your bosses about the situation is a great way to go. I don’t think you need to tie it to whether or not you participate in the interview panel, but saying to your bosses – before the hiring process proceeds I need to share with you my concerns about financial manager and his abusive management style. Good on you for wanting to take a concrete step to improve the situation.

  123. Muse of Ire*

    Hooray, i have jumped through all the pre-employment hoops and am ready to announce that I have a new job! But it’s been so long since I actually resigned from a job that i have a couple of dilemmas:
    1. I have, in essence, two bosses. Carlos is onsite and directs most of my assignments, but actually i report to Angelica, who sits a thousand miles away. To whom do i resign?
    2. If i resign to Angelica, can i do it by email? I’d like to get the clock started on my notice on Monday.

    2. Bagpuss*

      Since you formally report to Angelica, I’d contact her. IF you can phone her, do, if not, then email her. I would probably then speak to Carlos as well, and let him know too.

  124. Meg*

    I know there’s a lot of letters about coming into work sick, but I’m trying to figure out if I was the office jerk this week.

    I had a cough Thursday and Friday of last week, that I was really hoping didn’t turn into an actual cold. It did over the weekend, and I was feeling fairly pathetic all weekend. I felt better Monday, and also had a hard to schedule meeting and it was my boss’s last day in the office for 2 weeks (1 week of work travel and 1 week of vacation). A few people made offhanded comments about me sharing my germs (all people I have good relationships with). I know in a perfect world no one should ever some to work sick, but it feels impractical to stay home for a cold. In hindsight I maybe should have called out sick on Monday, but I’ve felt fine the rest of the week. I am still congested though, so everyone who talks to me can tell I’m getting over a cold. I guess I’m trying to figure out if I was the ass for coming into work all week.

    I should note, my organization would allow me to work from home, but I personally have a terrible set up for for it and wouldn’t be able to get very much done.

    1. Argh!*

      Do any of your coworkers have asthma or an immune disorder or kids? If not, then it’s not that big of a deal.

      If you were sick, how well were you actually working? I have a hard time with focus when I have a fever or if I’m sneezy.

      1. Meg*

        I don’t think that anyone is immune compromised, but there’s about 50 people in the office so I don’t actually know for sure.

        In terms of how well I was actually working, that’s where I’m getting hung up on the calling out thing. Monday I was a little fuzzy, but the rest of the week I’ve felt totally fine, I’m just still a little congested.

    2. Temperance*

      Okay if you have the ability to WFH when sick and contagious, you really should take it. I would be highly annoyed with you. I’m asthmatic, and your cold is my sinus infection that turns into bronchitis and might become pneumonia.

      1. AnonAnon*

        I second this. I ended up with lasting damage to my breathing after I caught a colleague’s “little cold” (we worked in a very tiny, enclosed space). For me it turned into a very serious respiratory issue that had me down for a month and eventually in the ER because I couldn’t breathe.

        And if it’s a situation where you really have to come in – there are reasons, I get it – I suggest taking every precaution to help isolate yourself and your germs. Keeping extra personal space around you in meetings, coughing into your elbow or a tissue, washing your hands after you cough/sneeze/blow your nose, washing your hands before touching common surfaces, cleaning up after yourself with disinfectant wipes, etc. Even if you think it’s overboard, it shows that you are being considerate and recognize that you are a risk to get others sick and trying to do all that you can to minimize that.

      2. Meg*

        Yeah, I probably should have stayed home on Monday. I guess where I struggle is the rest of the week, where I’m just congested. It doesn’t feel practical to stay home for over 5 work days because I’m congested, but I still sound sick.

        I also struggle with the working from home piece, because my personal laptop is very old and slow, and not very conducive to…at this point doing much of anything tbh. It’s on my list to replace it, but I keep putting it off because it’s not that important (I don’t work from home regularly. We can choose between working from home every Friday or working a compressed schedule and having every other Friday off. I flex, but a lot of coworkers regularly work from home).

        I am thinking a lot about your perspective, though, and am going to keep that front of mind for the future. Just because a cold isn’t a big deal to me doesn’t mean it’s not a big deal to other people.

        1. CheeryO*

          Maybe this is just a cultural thing that needs to change, but I don’t know anyone who takes off more than a couple days for a cold. I expect there to be mildly contagious people at work all through the fall and winter when things are going around, because it’s just not realistic to expect people to stay home until they’re 100% recovered… I mean, I had a professional job where I got three sick days per year, and they acted like that was generous!

    3. Extra Vitamins*

      According to nhs, a cold can be contagious before you have symptoms, and you generally shed virus for 5 to 7 days. So you might have been contagious Monday, but probably already shared germs the previous week.

    4. valentine*

      Improve your home setup for next time. Patch that roof before it rains. And could you have called in to the meeting?

  125. Bad Day Today*

    I’m afraid I’m going to be fired on Monday. I know at least that I’m in trouble. My boss set up an appointment without telling me what it’s about, and told me I could bring a peer.

    But… nobody wants to come with me because this place is well known for punishing people who aren’t passive and compliant (which I’m not – which is why I worry about being fired). I don’t think I’m allowed to bring someone from the outside with me.

    I’ll spend the weekend putting in job applications, just so I won’t feel totally hopeless if they axe me, but what I really want to do is make suicide plans. I’ve been completely demoralized and depressed for a few years, and I’ve just recently been coming out of it. My health has suffered, and that started turning around too. But it may all have been too late.

    1. fposte*

      Please consider calling the National Suicide Prevention Hotline at 1-800-273-8255.

      I’m sorry you can’t find somebody to bring to the meeting; it probably wouldn’t change anything, though, and it just shows up how troubled this workplace is. If you get fired, that’s hard, but it’s also something people recover from. Your plan to put in job applications this weekend sounds like a good one.

      Good luck. I think there’s a better situation for you and I hope this leads you to it.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +10 for the hotline. It’s a resource that is easily available and can really only help. Please take advantage of it!

        Your workplace sounds really, unnecessarily stressful and I’m sorry about that. Even if you aren’t fired or let go on Monday, I think you should consider job searching.

        Good luck and let us know how everything goes. Be nice to yourself this weekend and upcoming week.

    2. FaintlyMacabre*

      Seconding everything fposte said. Also, can you get a friend and practice “getting fired” over the weekend. Even if they can’t be there with you on Monday, you’ll have that extra support going in.

      Good luck, and please update us next Friday if you want.

    3. Cheese Boat*

      BDT, I second what fposte said above. Please also reach out if you have anyone in your life who can help you through this difficult time. You contribute more to this world than what your boss or coworkers can see or experience, and you can totally find a workplace that values you and treats you properly.

      If you don’t want to speak on the phone, you can also do an online chat here: http://www.suicidepreventionlifeline.org/GetHelp/LifelineChat.aspx

      Please let us know you are doing okay next week.

    4. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Adding on options–Text HOME to 741741 in the US for the Crisis prevention hotline. Looks like they do things by text, so you can talk to someone even if you can’t really do verbal or PC communication.

      Look after yourself, and please update us when you can.

      As far as the PIP/firing goes–it sucks. No doubt. If you are concerned (like I was right after my PIP), if you can start looking at your financial prep for a layoff. It may help you feel more in control of the situation. Also, it doesn’t hurt to ask if you can bring someone non-company. Worst case, they say no, and you are where you are right now.

      Wishing you the best.

      1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        Sorry, ignore the link in my name. Used it for an old post of the update article.

    5. Antilles*

      First off, fposte said it all and I strongly encourage you to call the hotline and talk to somebody. But I’ll just add that having been there, I guarantee you that as much as America likes to treat You Are Your Job, that’s not at all true and being let go from a job is not at all an indication of you as a person.
      Also, as an outsider, I’m stunned at the idea of bringing a peer to your firing. This is 100%, absolutely not normal – so far from normal in fact that it makes me wonder what even made *them* come up with the idea. Is it to smoke out other uppity people along with you? Is it making sure you’ve got a peer there to calm you down so you don’t go ballistic? Is it them wanting a ‘neutral’ witness there to fight against your unemployment claim? Like, I legitimately can’t come up with a scenario where a non-toxic workplace would even think about “hey, let’s have him bring a friend”.
      Somewhere in AAM’s archives, there’s some posts on things to do when you’re being let go and you should absolutely review that. Don’t sign anything unless they’re giving you severance in exchange. Keep copies of whatever performance related things you have (reviews, bonuses, etc). Ask them how they will describe it to future employers and try to negotiate a better recommendation/more favorable wording. Document the conversation afterwards in as much detail as you can. Etc.

      1. Bagpuss*

        Being given the opportunity to have someone with you is very common in the UK, I think it is actually a legal right, to be accompanied by a colleague or a union rep.

        BDT, I hope that things start to get better. Do call the hotline or talk to friends or family.

        1. Antilles*

          That’s interesting – at least in the States (my perspective), having a colleague with you is just as oddball as I described.
          I put union reps in a different category – part of the purpose of the union is to prevent you from unfair discipline, so it’s in the *company’s* best interest to have a representative from the union there to prevent later issues with the union.

    6. Bad Day Today*

      Thank you all. Just typing the post helped me redirect my energy. I plan to say nothing at all during the meeting, since I haven’t been told what it will be about. My boss has the upper hand in every possible way, so I have decided not to take the bait. If she asks me to say something I’ll promise to write something.

      One of my friends here was fired, and a friend’s husband was fired from another department, so she moved away, and another friend saw the writing on the wall and moved away to take another job a few months ago. This is a harsh, harsh place.

      1. Anna Held*

        Lord, I’m beginning to think it would be for the best. You need to get away. I’ve also never heard of bringing a buddy to your firing. And leaving you hanging all weekend is just mean.

        I hope it’s just a PIP or something so you have time to find a new job, but definitely keep looking hard no matter what! And lots of internet hugs. You deserve better.

        1. Bad Day Today*

          I hope it’s just a PIP too. They’ve prevented me from expanding on my job skills through actual work, so I’m trying to do it on the side. The resume is looking a little better than when I first started looking two years ago.

      2. Kathenus*

        Thank you for responding to the comments. As you said in your update, you have multiple friends who were fired or left because they might be. This is NOT a reflection on you, it’s the company that is the problem. They may have power over your job, but try not to give them power over your sense of self and self-worth. You can deal with this, and even if it’s hard in the short run it could be the first step to something better. I was basically fired a couple of years ago and it was devastating, but I focused on things I could control and found a much better situation eventually, even if it was hard for a while. You can do it too. Take care of yourself and please do update us.

        1. Bad Day Today*

          You’re so right about the power over sense of self. I have previous experience in another organization, so they really don’t have much power over my self-esteem. They do, however, have power over quality of life and my income.

          1. Kathenus*

            Yeah, I get the power they do have. I almost had to move across country to live with family temporarily when mine occurred, and at almost the last second got a new job. Sending positive vibes your way.

    7. Anono-me*

      First and foremost, please take good care of yourself. fposte and others have suggested good resources.

      I think you may find it helpful to reach out to your friends who have moved on from this harsh workplace. They may be good resources in helping you plan for whatever happens on Monday and with finding a new job.

      Also, I do want to urge you to continue to job hunt no matter what happens Monday. This doesn’t sound like a good place for you to be.

      Please post next Friday and let us know how you are?

      1. Bad Day Today*

        I Facebook-chatted with my friend who was fired recently from my department. He was very supportive. I never made it a secret that I considered him a friend, even after he was fired. That may have been held against me, but right is right in my mind.

  126. AnonymousBookworm*

    TL; DR: Do I ultimately listen to Boss or Grandboss?

    My department is public facing, so at certain times of year it’s typical for us to be stretched to capacity (and then some). Boss has told us frequently, especially this year and due to upcoming staffing shortages, that we are all doing enough and should not feel pushed to take on extra projects. She believes very strongly in work-life balance and has chastised me (even to the point of making notes in my annual reviews) for working too late / answering e-mails while out of office / etc. (note that my whole department is exempt, so this is definitely not an issue of overtime pay etc.)

    Recently, my coworker Betsy was charged by Grandboss, via Boss, with creating materials for a new marketing campaign he wanted to launch. She was pretty stretched, and not confident that she understood Grandboss’ vision, but Boss explained to her that Grandboss wanted X. Because her time was limited, she did the best that she could fairly quickly, got Boss’ sign off, and then ordered the materials. A few days ago, she learned from Boss that Grandboss was displeased with the outcome because he actually wanted Y. Boss mentioned that she had explained how overloaded Betsy was, and Grandboss responded that he was tired of hearing how busy we are. Boss made it clear that she was unconcerned and Betsy shouldn’t worry. But then, in a subsequent conversation, Boss mentioned to Betsy that Grandboss had also heard her telling us not to take on more projects, and wasn’t happy about it. Again, Boss said she was unconcerned. Later, Betsy told me about both conversations since we often use each other as a support system to get through the high workloads.

    Since New Grandboss started a few years ago, there’s been a much greater emphasis on hierarchy, meaning I don’t have much direct communication with Grandboss. Up until this point I’ve had a fairly good relationship with Boss, so I wasn’t too worried about it. However, I’m really not sure how to take this information, now that I have it. Betsy’s take is that Boss is our supervisor, ergo, if Boss says not to stretch ourselves, or not to be concerned, we should not. I’m conflicted — Grandboss outranks Boss, of course, and has higher expectations. And, I know that Boss has been job searching for some time, so Grandboss may well outlast her. On the other hand, if I stretch myself too much, Boss will certainly ‘ding’ me for it.

    Who do I listen to?

    1. Psyche*

      I think that since grandboss is not giving you any instructions directly, listen to boss. If grandboss does give you direct assignments or instructions, listen to grandboss.

      1. Psyche*

        You could try to take a middle ground where you stretch yourself a little but not so much that boss will “ding” you in the reviews. But that sounds exhausting to try to walk that line.

    2. Kathenus*

      Listen to your boss. It sounds like she has your back and is trying to manage up with grandboss and push back against unrealistic expectations. If right now your boss keeps telling you to be realistic with your commitments, and you’re having no negative repercussions (other than overhearing grandboss comments) from following her direction, it sounds like you’re fine. Worrying about what might happen if boss leaves is borrowing trouble. Bosses can change at any time, if they do, you find out the new expectations and act accordingly. Your boss sounds awesome, she seems to have your back and is acting as a buffer against grandboss. If it was me, I’d follow her instructions unless the situation that you described changes.

  127. Teapot Painter*

    Posted this last week, was TL;DR because the only comment was my correction.

    Questions first, explanations below:

    My questions are:
    1)How have you recovered from Old Toxic Jobs?
    2)Have I burned a bridge per se by not keeping in touch with a former employer for a while?
    3)How do I answer when friends in the region ask for recommendations for “teapot painters” when I still feel an obligation to recommend my former company?

    I left a job last year that was very damaging to my mental and physical health(anxiety messed up my body and I’m still not 100% better). I am now in a GREAT job where I am treated like an adult: CEO says “Thank you” almost every day, the work is fulfilling, everyone is very laid back, the money is steady and good, benefits are great, etc. This job is several states away and closer to my family too.

    Drawback: I am still very angry at my former employers for the way they treat their employees and run their business. Now knowing how a job in this niche industry can be and should be, I’m angry about how they acted like what they did was all good and necessary. I haven’t spoken to my former employers since I left(former boss texted me a few months later, I responded but only coolly). I have no reason to speak to them, and I am afraid that if I were to run into them I’d have to work really hard to be civil. However, I am in a niche field(think Teapot painting), and I have and will run into some people at yearly conferences who do and will know my former employers.

    Recently a friend back in the town where I used to work asked me for recommendations for teapot painters. I had a hard time answering her because while I know that my former company did good teapot painting, I was trained to only recommend my company for teapot painting. I still for some reason felt an urge to recommend my company, even though I am not sure I want to based on my experiences as an employee. This was also motivated by knowing that it is very likely my friend could run into my former employers in her line of work as well.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I’m still totally recovering from Old Toxic Job. Every time someone is nice to me a part of my brain is screaming “IT’S A TRAP!!!” Part of recovering from it was recognizing just how bad it was.

      I don’t think you have burned a bridge. You haven’t gone scorched earth, you’ve kept your distance. When my excellent Boss retired, we kept in touch. But I have never reached out to GrandBoss, who became my Boss because of her own refusal to recognize a year’s notice. I don’t ever want to speak to her, and I still am angry over things she said to me and how she treated me and others she deemed beneath her. I know though if I ever did run into her in town, I’d need to keep it polite but I’d do everything in my power to keep it short.

      When someone asks me to recommend my old place of work, it depends on what they’re asking me to recommend. Is it the product? Is it working there? Is it something else? Some of the aspects of working there were good, so if they are interested in that, I give them a broader picture. If someone asked me about working specifically in my old department or my old position, I’d tell them the truth in a civil manner.

      1. Teapot Painter*

        Thanks!! I am glad I am not alone in the recovery process. It’s so hard to just relax and enjoy the good things in my new situation, because I still live in fear of being thought of as lazy because I spent 10 minutes talking to a coworker in the break room while I got coffee.

        It was about the services my old job offered. I.E., “I need teapot painters! Who do you recommend for teapot painting?” I tried to sidestep it as best as I could by saying I didn’t know much about the other companies in the area. Which is true.

    2. Argh!*

      It took me years to get over OldToxicJob. For about five years, every time something happened at the new job, I’d have a dream about OldToxicJob. The dreams evolved and weren’t always bad, but it was still a kind of “we’re back in the old [mental] place today” feeling.

      As to making recommendations, you can say you’re not able to because you only really know one place, so you would be biased. That’s not untruthful, right? There are other people your friend can talk to for advice. After you wriggle out of it, ask what movie they’d recommend for your weekend viewing or otherwise change the subject. Your friendship will be better for it.

      1. Teapot Painter*

        Haha yeeesss. Every time I have an exhausting day at my current job, I say to myself “Wow, this was an ‘Old Job’ day!!”. It’s a good perspective reminder. The worst/hardest days here are so few and far between, but they are what my life was every day at OldJob.

        I did something similar to what you suggested, but I didn’t say “I can’t give you an unbiased recommendation.” Thanks! I will remember that if it happens in the future.

    3. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      1) Recovery–the best thing for me was time. I actually ended up taking some time off (unrelated, but a period of unemployment) and it helped A LOT to reset my attitude. I didn’t realize how stressed I was all the time until I wasn’t. If you can afford it, I’d say take at least a week off. If you’ve been burned out for >1 year, see if you can get closer to 2 weeks. I know it’s almost impossible in this day and age in the US (assuming you are there) but you might be able to wrap it around some of the work holidays?

      I also started doing some of the hobbies I’d let go because of time and stress. Try to remember what you enjoyed doing the most–was it something mentally challenging? Physically strenuous? Some combination of both? See if you can pencil in some time to do those things on your day off. That stuff really helped me remember why I work, and who I am when I’m not stressed.

      2)Burned Bridge–nah, I don’t think so. I’ve got colleagues and managers I talk to occasionally from my old job, and it’s nothing for us to go months without talking. One of my former bosses I’d be OK if I never saw his face again (the feeling might be mutual, I don’t really care). Another one we just don’t talk (nothing really in common) though I greet him when I see him out and about. As long as you have people there that you can call on for references/referrals, I think you are fine.

      3) Decide and practice what you’ll say to your friends/family/whoever when they ask for recommendations. It’s like Amazon–lots of people love the service and product, but there are several employees that hate working for the company and describe exactly why. If you don’t want to recommend them, don’t. Find a different company or say something like, “There’s not really a company I feel comfortable recommending to you there.” You could even add something like “there’s been enough time and changes since I’ve been gone I don’t feel comfortable recommending/guaranteeing their work anymore.”

      If you do want to recommend them but you want to add the caveats, be practical.
      “This company is very good at painting teapots. But, they can be rude if you have issues.”

      or

      “They are good at the core product, but anything else can have variable quality because they hire it out.”

      or

      “They can be impolite in communications, but they do good work.”

      Probably don’t use “that place sucks!” though. :)

      Good luck and congrats on getting out of there! Hopefully it’s only upwards and better from here on out.

      1. Teapot Painter*

        All good points!! Thank you! I am actually going to be taking a long vacation soon, so that will help me out tremendously.

        And yes, I also plan on focusing on some more hobbies next year. My life has done a 180 in a good direction, so I am still trying to find my equilibrium.

    4. JessicaTate*

      To Q3: Absolutely don’t recommend them. And when those (messed up) feelings of guilt happen, remind yourself you have absolutely no obligation to recommend them AND, frankly, they have not earned your recommendation. That guilt is one of the leftover pieces of BS from Toxic Job that you want to get rid of.

      I’ve left a toxic job before (in a niche field), and I know that I would never name them if someone asked for recommendations for “teapot glazing.” Even if their glazing work is fine, I know how the sausage gets made, and I would not support sending business there. I’ve found that neglecting to name them in response to an ask of, “Know any good glazers out there?” is pretty straightforward. Just recommend a company whose work you do respect, even if they’re not in the region.

      The trickier part is when they ask you for your opinion about Toxic Company specifically. “Hey, I’m looking at some teapot painting companies. What do you think about ABC?” You have to have thought through the pros/cons of being A) evasive while not recommending, “I’m not sure, it’s been a while since I worked there…” vs. B) being straightforward, “They’re a mess. Don’t use them in a million years,” and whether it could blowback on you if you were perceived by the field to be directly bad-mouthing an old company? But either way, I won’t recommend them. It’s just a matter of how direct I am in actively giving them negative feedback.

      Hang in there. You’ll get to the other side.

      1. Teapot Painter*

        Hm. yeah from now on I might just say “I don’t know.” That is easier than doing mental somersaults around the question. And if asked opinion on the company’s work, I could truthfully say they have “Mixed reviews,” and my own opinion is very biased and shouldn’t be reliable.

    5. Kathenus*

      Toxic jobs have lasting effects, I’m years into a new, good job and still have repercussions from my horribly toxic experience prior to this at times. Also in a niche field, also see people occasionally at conferences. The first year it was so stressful worrying about what I would do if I ran across certain people, that it negatively impacted my experience. Since then I’ve deliberately let that go – if I run into them, I run into them. I can nod or say a polite hello and move on. This year I must be getting better because I went out of my way to say hi to and talk to a person from oldjob who was standing with horribly toxic former boss, and I think it made her really uncomfortable that I was there so I found myself thoroughly enjoying that part.

      I’ve read a few times here and elsewhere that it’s important to try to not let these toxic people or toxic jobs continue to have power over you. It’s easier said than done, but I really try to not let them affect my happiness; as much as I can anyway. It still creeps in, but I actively try to remember to let go and remember that holding on to it only hurts me, not them. Time helps, but changing your mindset is also important.

  128. Anon and Angry*

    I’m late today, but this JUST happened:

    I was in the lunchroom, and a coworker (A) (who works a second retail job, aside from our 9-5) was talking to another coworker (B) whose wife works in the same outlet mall. All 4 of us are white, middle class, and live in a small diverse city surrounded by a LOT of rural, majority white countryside.

    Coworker B asked coworker A if she had the same issues with a certain racial minority as his wife did (this made me uncomfortable, but I didn’t say anything). She responded yes, they always want to buy from the outlets and resell for more. She then went on to say that they were “gross, disgusting people,” at which point I snapped at her that that’s not an ok thing to say, and that the whole conversation had to end there. Her response: “Sorry if I offended you.”

    My questions to the commentariate:
    1. Did I speak too late (should I have shut down the conversation earlier)? I’m kind of disappointed in myself for not ending it as soon as the conversation started.

    2. How should I follow up on this? Being white myself and therefore not personally targeted, I’m not sure if I have standing to go to her manager or anything (and we don’t have anyone of that racial group who works in this office, who could have been affected)…..but on the other hand, I’m seething that something like this was said in my workplace. This SHOULD NOT HAPPEN, and I want to make sure it doesn’t happen again.

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Oh gross. I don’t think you should beat yourself up, what a shocking thing to hear, and you did say something in the moment, so I think you’re free to not be disappointed in yourself.

      You should absolutely so say something to your/their manager/HR. You don’t have to be personally targeted to be affected by hate speech, and it’s honestly the belief that they’re protected/agreed with by “their own” that continues to empower people to be blatantly racist. (Similar to how guys will react better/at all to other guys calling out their sexist behavior than if a woman calls them out.) Put your privilege to good use and report their gross, hateful behavior.

    2. Argh!*

      You’re an ally, which is a good thing.

      How you would proceed from there, I have no idea. It would probably depend on their contact with the public and the chances they’d behave in a racist manner.

      If their boss isn’t your boss, you could mention it to your boss and ask for advice.

    3. Qwerty*

      It’s worth bringing it up to someone with authority, whether it’s your manager, her manager, or HR. You don’t have to be personally targeted to find offensive comments unacceptable. When people have conversations like this at the office, it does affect the environment for everyone else, especially other minorities. If they are willing to talk that way about one race, odds are they harbor less than kind feelings about other races too. If you escalate this, maybe someone with authority can have a conversation about what is and isn’t acceptable in the workplace, which will protect your coworkers. Or if a coworker C later reports being discriminated against by this coworker A, there will be documentation already in place to back up C’s claims.

  129. VeryAnon, Yes*

    The joys of retail.

    Today someone quit because they didn’t like the shifts they were scheduled for next week. And it wasn’t a quiet quit, it was a full on screaming in front of customers and floor managers quit.

    …fast forward three hours, she comes and grovels for her job back.

    And gets it back.

    Alrighty then.

    That’s not going to be awkward working with her tomorrow at all…

    2. Xarcady*

      My guess is that with the holidays approaching, they need every body they can get out on the sales floor. I wonder if she will be around long after the first of the year.

      1. Antilles*

        Agreed, this is the kind of stunt that gets you hired back for peak season and then fired/zero-hours out of the store in January.

  130. Alpha Bravo*

    For the past few months I’ve been running a construction project on my property. I have hired several different contractors for the various aspects of the work, and in this last phase I’ve really become aware of my own unconscious biases. For reference, I am a female American Indian. The last three contractors I hired were composed of teams of generally young-ish males. The first group was Guatemalan. The second was Mexican. The third appears to be white American guys. All of them have been professional, polite and hard-working. One of the groups made me uneasy. I have interacted with all of them in the same manner and this played no role in my choice of contractors. But it sure makes me aware of how our unconscious biases can affect how we approach people in the workplace, whether employers, coworkers or contractors.

    1. Reba*

      Observing one’s own thoughts and subconscious reactions can be really instructive. I hope the project is going well.

  131. EddieSherbert*

    I have an interview next week! And I’m excited and nervous!

    I’m not job hunting, and I don’t know if I’d take it if offered. I only applied because a friend associated with the organization recommended me and it IS in the direction I want to go with my career. It also comes with a higher paycheck, good benefits, and is closer to my SO’s work, so we could move and have shorter commutes… But I honestly didn’t expect to even interview; they were asking for a decent amount more experience than I have AND management experience (I have no management experience per say, but I’ve been a team lead and hold a leadership position at a relevant volunteer organization). I also haven’t had an interview in AGES. So we’ll see. Trying not to psych myself out!

    Wish me luck!

  132. AnonyMouse*

    Advice for interviewing with someone you know?

    I have a phone interview on Monday with someone that I used to work with about three years ago. We worked in a large office, so we did know each other, but we didn’t work closely together. I’d say we’re acquaintances at best. I feel like this is one of those awkward situations where I have to acknowledge our connection, but we also don’t know each other well. My tentative plan was to see how she initiates the phone interview and maybe open with a generic “It’s good to hear from you” or “glad to see you are doing well since our days at _________”

    Thoughts?

    1. Ali G*

      I keep it simple – greet the people you haven’t met before with “It’s nice to meet you,” and for the one you know say “It’s good to see you again.” This acknowledges you know each other without it being awkward for her, or derailing the conversation about how you know each other, if she hasn’t mentioned it to anyone else. If it’s just the 2 of you, then your script is fine too.

  133. Meteor*

    TLDR: Is it better to be a marketer for a startup vs a well-established, large company?

    My husband just relocated us for his new job, and I am in a nice position of having 2 months to job search while I finish working for my prior position remotely. I work in advertising, and the opportunities where we now live are either huge, well-established brands, or a plethora of small start-up type companies. So far I’m applying to both types, as long as the responsibilities and job description match up with my experience & goals. But I’m feeling very conflicted. Is it better to work for a smaller, riskier business for which I could really stretch my legs and grow their brand? Or to join a large team working on an established business, where I may have less responsibility but more safety? Any experiences/advice you have is welcome!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      At least the nonprofit sector I’ve had experience on both sides, and I’d say it’s different, neither one is necessarily better – just depends on what you like. At a big org I enjoyed the stability of having an HR, having clear-cut benefits and more policies and procedures to refer to. I found it a little easier to function and less all-absorbing. But it was also pretty granular in terms of job roles, with more silos and departments – you’d literally end up as “assistant director of llama grooming, silver longhaired llamas division” if you weren’t careful. When I had those jobs I was busy with stuff outside of work, and I felt like they had more professional respect for the 9-5 lifestyle.

      Working at eager younger nonprofits is messier, you end up getting pulled in lots of directions and I think the professional lines get blurred a lot more. I also make less here and although I do have benefits, I know lots of comparable orgs don’t or they’re not as good as the biggies. Personalities are a bigger deal here because the staff is small, and staffing is chaotic – always people coming and going, probably a greater chance of layoffs. But, you get a lot more experience and grow more as a professional. I often suggest to young people entering the field that they start at the small scrappy orgs, where they might be run ragged for low pay but after a year they’ll have been exposed to lots of different types of roles and got to try a lot of things, including higher level responsibilities. (You can form bad habits too though, as I did!). I enjoy it now because I have less stuff going on at home to distract me so I’m more able to lean in.

        1. Lil Fidget*

          I don’t know if the 9-5 thing is specific to nonprofits though. In something like a marketing firm I don’t know if you end up working less hours for more pay at a big place. They may demand higher commitment in terms of hours or productivity instead (which would actually make more sense).

  134. BlueAnon*

    TLDR: Etiquette for inviting coworkers to a wedding?

    Long story: my work is very large, very laid back and many people form lasting friendships (there are also several marriages) so being close to a circle of coworkers is the norm. I have been here long enough that I have my circle. We don’t have much connection work responsibility-wise but we get lunch together, hang out outside of work, etc. About a year and a half ago a new hire worked her way into our lunch group and….none of us can stand her. She’s very negative and emotionally draining. But it seems we are basically stuck with her at work, which is whatever – I can be civil and deal with occasional lunches. My question is my wedding next year – how awkward would it be not to invite her? The rest of the group will be invited but I obviously don’t want to invite someone that I don’t like. I’ve already asked everyone not to talk about the wedding, but obviously there will be pictures and talk after the fact. I am not close to her, we’ve never hung out outside of work and we don’t communicate at all outside of the group. Should I not invite her and not worry about it? Or should I suck it up and invite her to avoid causing any drama?

    1. grace*

      I think I’m in the minority here, but it’s your wedding, so I think it depends on what you want to do. I’d feel guilty and would probably invite her, hope she doesn’t come, and get over it if she does — but if you don’t want to deal with it the whole evening, don’t do it. Part of being an adult means getting over it when someone doesn’t like you (and it sounds like it’s mutual – so would she even want to go?) and being professional at work anyway.

      1. EtiquetteCanTrapUs*

        Agree. One thing I’ve noticed about the extremely negative types is they will find any reason to turn anything around to feed their own negativity. We have a couple in my office. It’s never a good day for them. They don’t particularly like it if it’s a good day for you, either. I can’t imagine this woman not sh*tting over the OP’s wedding in some verbal/non-verbal fashion.

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      I am firmly in the invite who you want to invite to your wedding camp. This is not your 3rd grade birthday party where you need to invite the whole class. My favorite phrase when my negative co-workers started pestering for an invite was cheerfully saying “Unfortunately due to the budget we weren’t able to invite everyone! But thank you for the well wishes!”

      1. Dance-y Reagan*

        Agreed. Invite who you want, and don’t apologize for it. Your office politics do not belong at the altar.

    3. Psyche*

      I think you should ask the coworkers who are invited not to say anything after the wedding either to avoid awkwardness.

    4. ANon..*

      Is the amount of discomfort you would experience by having her at your wedding greater than the hurt she would feel by being the only one in the group not invited?

      That’s generally my mindset when it comes to social events, work related or otherwise. It’s not about needing to invite the whole class, it’s about thinking about other people and evaluating their feelings compared to yours. If you answer is honestly and truly that you would be super uncomfortable to have her at your wedding, then okay, don’t invite her. But compare how much skin off your teeth it is realistically to invite her versus her feelings of being excluded.

      (Also, I think the etiquette rule is either under 50% or everyone. So if you’re inviting under 50% of the group, that’s fine, but if you’re inviting more then you should include everyone.)

    5. EtiquetteCanTrapUs*

      It’s your wedding. You can invite anyone you want. You can not invite anyone you want. This even applies to family members, though the people who think weddings are for faaaaammmmily won’t like that I say that.

      This is not something where you have to “be nice.” This is a personal event, not a work-sponsored retreat. This is your day, and you’re spending a lot of money on making sure it’s a good time for all. You don’t need to spend emotional capital on making sure someone who doesn’t really seem concerned with being all that nice herself isn’t uncomfortable or left out. Not everybody has to always go to everything, and she’s not even someone you consider a friend. You are going above and beyond by asking your actual friends not to talk about your wedding.

      1. ANon..*

        Yea, sure, it’s your party you can do what you want. But personally (I’m also getting married next year), I wouldn’t want my wedding to be the reason someone else felt hurt and excluded. And, quite honestly, there’ll be enough people there that that one person I don’t really like’s presence is just not going to affect me at all. I’ll say a quick hello, thank you for coming, then move on to the next person.

        1. valentine*

          Doing this foists a negative, unliked person on the other guests. Assuming she’d really want to be invited or to feel excluded is just that, whereas her awfulness is guaranteed.

    6. BRR*

      Unless your lunch group is more than half of your immediate team, then I think you’re safe to not invite her.

    7. Rusty Shackelford*

      I think you don’t invite people you *dislike* to your wedding. And if she says anything, you can say “I’m sorry, I didn’t have the budget to invite everyone I work with, so I stuck with the people I’ve known for several years.” Assuming that’s actually who you’re inviting.

    8. froodle*

      Don’t invite her, don’t worry about it. A whiner is a whiner is a whiner, and will whine about something no matter what. Whining that you weren’t invited to a co-workers wedding(!!) is going to look particularly strange on her part and will win her many well deserved eyerolls from any sensible person.

  135. ThankYouRoman*

    I was just thinking “el nino winter?! My asssssss.” when taking a walk earlier. We dropped 20 degrees in about a week lol.

    Sweaty jeans are the worst though!

  136. irene adler*

    She may not know that she can speak up about this to you. She might even think that because the guy is older she needs to respect him and let him blather away w/o any objection from her.
    I volunteer for my professional organization. We have an older gentleman who talks non-stop. Actually corners me to talk about things. It is getting on my nerves. I am able to get away from the chatter-most times. Sooner or later, my patience will wear thin.
    Might be worth a check-in with the woman to make sure you have an accurate ‘read’ on the situation.

  137. Mouse in the House*

    This resume bank is requiring that I list references. Can I give names with no phone numbers and say something like “Please only contact references if I an a finalist for a position” or something like that?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      That’s one option, or you can also provide only peer references in that first upload and later provide supervisors when there’s an actual job on the table. Depends on what you think looks shadier. I’m definitely not listing contact info for current supervisors for someone just to have on hand for some TBD reason.

  138. FaintlyMacabre*

    My suspicion is that this is a no, but…

    I had a phone interview in late October for a job in a field that I am trying to get into. There are some certification courses for this particular field, but they only occur every so often/ are semi expensive/ require time off to attend, so I haven’t taken one yet. However, things are aligned so that I will be able to take that course in January. Should I write to the hiring manager to follow up with the phone interview and mention that I am signed up? Or is it too far out to matter? And also, even though I expect I will pass the course, there is of course no guarantee.

    1. Psyche*

      I don’t think that you need to update the hiring manager that you signed up for the course. It could be something to bring up during an interview.

      1. FaintlyMacabre*

        I’m concerned that I didn’t do well enough on the phone interview to warrant an in-person interview. But I guess I’ll just have to wait and see.

        1. Kathenus*

          Since the phone interview was pretty recent, and if you think that not having the certification course(s) may impact your candidacy, you don’t have much to lose by a quick note. ‘Dear Hiring Manager – thank you for taking the time to speak with me recently about xx job. I wanted to give you a quick update that I am registered for xx certification course in January 2019. Please let me know if you would like any additional information. Thanks, FaintlyMacabre’

          Good luck!

  139. Z*

    I just found out that I was pregnant a few weeks ago (due in July hopefully). I’m super happy, though the timing was a bit earlier than expected. I had decided to start job searching a few months ago, and now I’m second guessing everything. I’ve been at my job for the past six years, recently got my masters degree, and even though I got a raise I’m still underpaid. So my main goal is to get a higher salary, but I also want to try a different company and perhaps field (but still doing the same type of work).

    But now I’m nervous about giving up my great health insurance, and am worried that I may not be covered by maternity leave since I’ll be working at a new place for under a year (I’m in the US). I also know that there’s a limited time that I’ll be able to interview without being visibly pregnant. So now I’m wondering if I should just stay where I am through my maternity leave? I’m not unhappy here and like my boss and coworkers, the main issues are salary and doing more interesting work.

    I’m wondering if anyone has gone through something similar, and what factors they considered when deciding whether to apply to places or stay in place. I’d appreciate any advice!

    1. Lil Fidget*

      It’s totally up to you but honestly, if it were me, I’d stay in place given the situation you described. Only because you know you are currently pregnant – if you’d just said you were starting to think about trying my advice would be different, as it can take longer than people think. You don’t hate your job now, you have the benefits, and I’d be thinking I don’t want to take on a challenging new role right as I’m about to be distracted and sleep-deprived. Most of the returning parents I know really value having jobs they can do in their sleep for a little while. And you can job search during your maternity leave or after coming back for a short time, if that’s what feels right to you at that time.

    2. First Time Caller*

      I’m 100% in the same boat. The advice I give to myself, drawn from Allison’s here, is that I don’t have to take something just because it’s offered. It’s an option, that I will then get to evaluate and see if it works for me. So I’ve kept applying, albeit with less urgency. Like, what if I go someplace with unpaid maternity leave but the salary bump is high enough that I come out better in the end? I’m close to not being able to hide it anymore, but when I could I had decided I would bring it up at the offer stage, and try to be matter-of-fact about “This is an unmoveable life event that I need XYZ time for, does this situation still work for both of us?” And if their, like, one major annual event was during the first month after my baby was due, we could conclude it probably wouldn’t with no hard feelings. I put my career moves on hold for what felt like a long time because I was trying to get pregnant for a year, and planning for it for a year before that, and I’ve gotten tired of doing that.

      2. Lil Fidget*

        Yeah, we’ve definitely advised people here on the comms who are just starting to plan getting pregnant, not to base career decisions around that yet. A lot of my friends started planning it about five years before they ended up needing maternity leave, and it’s a shame to have made so many of your career decisions that way!!

      3. Z*

        Thanks so much! I’ve thought through a lot of the same things too, especially if I’ll be able to make enough to offset any unpaid leave I might have to take. But I like your idea of searching with less urgency. Because you’re right- I don’t have to accept every job that’s offered. I also kind of feel like I put my career moves on hold while I was getting my degree, so I don’t want to hold myself back career-wise just because of this timing. But Lil Fidget – you’re right that it’s not a bad situation that I’m in and it wouldn’t be terrible to stay there a little longer than expected and job search during/after maternity leave. Anyway, thanks First Time Caller for letting me know I’m not alone! And thanks to both of you for the thoughtful advice!

  140. That's Not My Job*

    Is it okay to treat something you’re not paid for as your job? I don’t mean in the legal sense, but when you think of your duties as a job and someone else would say they’re a volunteer, is that fair?

    Context: I am a teacher at a “homeschool ministry” run by a church. I consider it my job and receive a paycheck, but when I started it was explained to me that while it’s technically a school, they see it as more of a ministry and so being a teacher there is more of a volunteer position where you get some reimbursement for travel and resources. I am legally a contractor for them and can sometimes, in a good year, meet the $600 threshold to actually need to file taxes. When talking to other teachers there, they often ask me if I have a job. Most teachers there are parents who are making up tuition they can’t afford otherwise. So the place where I have to go each week and make (some) money by doing so, ends up feeling like a volunteer position.

    In contrast, there is a completely volunteer position that I want to treat more like a job. I have worked with my local greyhound adoption group for over a year now, first running a meet and greet, then adding fostering new dogs fresh off the track to my duties. Now I’m being offered the position of adoption counselor for my area. Because of the level of responsibility taking care of living things necessarily entails, this feels more like my “real” job and what I often reply with when asked by fellow teachers about my job. But, if I take this counselor position, I worry that I’ll annoy others by treating it like a job when it’s not. I know they really need me right now (aside: if you have the resources, please consider fostering, adopting, or donating to your local greyhound group, ~8000 dogs will need a placement in the next 2 years) and I’m willing to give it everything I’ve got, but is there such a thing as too much?

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      I think it’s perfectly fine to treat it as your job. Others don’t need to know your salary/lack thereof or need to justify it.

      As a side note, one of my alma mater’s mascots is a greyhound and they always had greyhound adoption organizations on campus/at sporting events. It was amazing and exposed so many people to their organization. I know many alumni that adopted greyhounds for that reason. I currently rent in a no-pet house, but am hoping to buy a house next year and then I can foster/adopt some of those sweet pups. Thank you for what you do!!

      1. SL #2*

        A friend of mine has a retired racer and he is the sweetest and sleepiest boy. He’ll do zoomies around the yard for half an hour and then pass out on the couch for 6 hours after that. They call them 45-mph couch potatoes for a reason!

        1. That's Not My Job*

          Yes exactly! Fostering is difficult when you have to get up in the middle of the night and clean up pee but it’s so rewarding when you see them finally feel comfortable enough to run zoomies or roach or play with stuffies – just generally show that silly attitude they get. Plus my grey enjoys the occasional sibling. Our very first time fostering we happened to get her actual brother!

    2. Anon From Here*

      Unpaid work is still work. Volunteer jobs are still jobs.

      I absolutely do include volunteer positions on my resume and my LinkedIn profile. They cover significant chunks of my professional history and include practice areas that I wouldn’t be able to truthfully include in my paid positions.

    3. Antilles*

      Honestly, as you’ve described it, I don’t think it’s a big deal *what* you call it. When other teachers ask you about your ‘job’, they’re basically just using it as chit-chat to spark conversation.
      So no sane person is going to parse your answer based on the definition of career versus job versus hobby versus volunteering. You can just respond with a simple “oh, I’ve started working with a greyhound adoption group” and that’ll answer their real question of ‘how do you spend your time?’.

    4. LilySparrow*

      What would you do differently in the role if you “treated it as a volunteer position?” Why might it annoy people to consider it a job?

      If you take on a role that requires a big commitment of time & energy to do well, then you should take it seriously and prioritize it. If you take on a role that requires professional skills (like teaching), then you should use the highest level of skill you have.

      Now, if you were treating volunteers as if they were employees and demanding a level of commitment that was burning them out or imposing on them, that would be annoying.

      I’m not sure I understand the distinction you’re making.

      1. That's Not My Job*

        I’m worried that other volunteers think I expect them to treat it as a full time job. The counselor I’m trying to train under keeps apologizing for having a full time job and not being able to meet during the week. I have assured her I’m fine with this but I do wonder if I’m somehow giving off the vibe that I’m not. There’s also some cultural barriers there so it’s totally possible it has nothing to do with me. I’m also influenced by that one time I was put in contact with the woman in charge of shop inventory and three months later she finally responded with what I needed. Logically I know all my interactions won’t be like that but ahhhh what if I end up hating everyone for never answering emails.

  141. Mouse in the House*

    Would you rather get a rejection letter or be ghosted by a potential employer? I recently submitted an application to a selective training/hiring program and they sent me back a nice email saying I didn’t get it; it’s been about three weeks since they said they’d get back to applicants, so I knew I didn’t get it and then felt irrationally sad and lacking in self-worth when I got the email.

    Personally, the only time I prefer follow-up is after I’ve had an interview or two. What about you?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Most people would say they’d rather get an email because at least they can stop thinking about that job, or wondering if the application got lost etc. If you’re truly able to put a job out of your mind after you apply (or just assume that no response after six weeks is a no – or whatever), either one is fine.

    2. Psyche*

      I prefer the rejection letter. Then I know for sure and can move on rather than wonder if maybe they are running late or my application was lost.

    4. Feel the noise*

      I prefer the rejection email, by far. That closes the loop, means I don’t waste time and evergy worrying about whether I’ll hear back, and lets me refocus on other opportunities. Plus, it’s just polite of them not to keep me hanging, so I have a better opinion of companies and hiring managers who make the effort to do it.

      Also, I’ve heard back from applications 2-3 months after submission, so I certainly wouldn’t have assumed after 3 weeks that I didn’t get it.

  142. Yay commenting on AAM!*

    I’ve dealt with that issue! I spent a long time as an aquatics supervisor at a community-oriented fitness center. So I had staff who were mostly young adults, some older adults, and a lot of staff and customers who were “odd ducks” or “black sheep” types with poor social skills, and honestly a lot of customers who were genuine creepers.

    Typically, if I saw something like this, I’d wait until you have some time alone with the woman and ask her how she felt, ex: “I noticed John’s been spending a lot of time talking with you, how do you feel about that?” and then proceed from what she says. If you pick up that she feels bothered or harassed, or you think she is being harassed but she doesn’t, reaffirm her right to assert herself. “If you don’t want to talk to someone, it’s OK for you to ask him to give you some space when you’re busy,” or “Harassment is inappropriate in this workplace, so if you are being harassed, we will support you in stopping it.”

    If you think she is mid conversation and is showing signs of being trapped, come up with an excuse to interrupt, call her landline or ask her to come help you with some task, then once you’re in private have the above conversation with her.

    Because a lot of my staff were young, usually I’d end up helping them go over strategies to handle the situation on their own: establishing a professional boundary with someone who’s too chatty, getting backup and reporting harassment if they feel unsafe, reaffirming their right to set personal boundaries at work with people they otherwise like, etc. Occasionally, I’d determine it was harassment when they were “OK” with it, and then I’d take over and use my Boss Powers to stop the other person. It all really depended, but I’d get their take on the situation, and then support them in navigating it.

  143. Ms Cappuccino*

    In my workplace, some employees are on a zero hours contract. It means employer is not obliged to give them work, and employees aren’t obliged to accept work (according to ACAS website) . However, many of these “zero hours” employees work regular hours (for instance: every Monday from 10 to 3). One colleague, Dany, has said he cannot work Monday 18th November. Dany cannot take annual leave because he has already spent all his annual leave. So he said to the boss he will just not work on Monday 18th and he doesn’t expect payment. Boss said Dany has no right to do that and it is a breach of contract. Do you think it is legal ? This is in the UK.

    1. Psyche*

      I’m not a lawyer, but it sounds like Dany should show the boss his contract and ask how it is a breach to not accept work on Monday. Of course, based on your description of the contract the company could then decide not to give him more work, so it sounds risky.

      1. Ms Cappuccino*

        Their argument is that they give him regular work (every week for the last 2 years). You’re right it is risky because they could decide to replace him.

  144. Overeducated*

    Book recommendation: I’m reading “I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness” by Austin Channing Brown, and there are a few really good chapters about the experience of being Black in a predominantly white workplace, particularly in positions where “diversity” or “racial reconciliation” are part of the job. Her descriptions of the emotional impact and energy this takes are helping shift my perspective on a) how to be more aware of what my POC colleagues may be experiencing and b) how to talk about race at work without focusing on white people’s comfort, including my own.

  145. Accounting Otaku*

    I have a job interview coming up on Tuesday, and I need help wording a question. One of the reviews for the company from the department I’m interviewing for is below. I’m struggling on figuring out how to word a question to see if they’ve addressed this or if the situation has any truth.

    “”I worked for for a year and a half. During that period of time the promise of the bright future changed. I decided to work there under the premise of growth and unlimited possibilities until I realized that was not the company culture and the rules became more and more petty in the last 6 months. The morale took a huge dive and people are dropping like flies either by their own choice or job eliminations due to lack of work.””

    Any thoughts on how to word this question for this? I’m just stumped.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Hmmmm. I don’t think you can address the review directly or get super specific with a question that kind of points at the review…

      Maybe just ask about the parts that concern you separately? So a question about opportunities for continuous improvement/creativity (I associate creativity with… not a ton of micromanaging rules?), doing a variety of projects (versus the same thing over and over). And then a question or two about company culture as well.

      Sorry, that’s a tough one.

    2. irene adler*

      You need to approach this as a whole topic-company reviews-not just the one bad review.

      Explain that you’d like to hear their thoughts on a couple of reviews you’ve read recently.

      Start by citing one or two reviews that sound favorable to the company. Use reviews that describe company culture or the department work environment. Ask if they think they are accurate portrayals of the company. Listen to their response. Follow up with a comment along the lines of “that’s good to hear”.

      Then move to the review you posted. Read it to them. Ask them to respond.
      If their response is lacking, explain that the review gave you pause. Can they reconcile how it is possible for both reviews to be correct assessments of the work environment? This review raises concerns for you because you do not want to find yourself in a poor working environment.

      They might wave this review off as one disgruntled ex-employee. Try to probe for more: Ask them how you might be assured that this is NOT an actual description of the work place. Are they, in fact, experiencing a high turnover rate? If so, is this by attrition or by lay off? What future does the role you are interviewing for have, if they are laying off workers?

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Hmm, if I was holding interviews that would come across as pretty aggressive, to me. The company is not obliged to respond to someone’s grumpy review on a point-by-point basis. I like the first suggestion to ask a broader question about the company’s current direction or the morale or what the interviewer enjoys most about the culture or something. Maybe I’m biased because my org has some real zinger reviews on glassdoor, and in my experience it’s fine.

      2. Accounting Otaku*

        I like this, but the problem is there are only two reviews for that company right now. Both are very conflicting and very recent. Posted in the last three weeks recent. I’m trying to give attention to red flags when I see them because I really don’t want to leave one toxic job for another.

        1. irene adler*

          If it’s the only negative review, then I’d be a bit skeptical.

          You’ll have to find another source for information about the company.
          You can ask about turnover rate-company, department.
          You can ask why the person who held the job prior to you left the company.
          You can ask your potential boss “how do you support your reports?”

          Folks who duck these questions, or laugh and give sarcastic answers indicate a problem (I dodged a bullet on this!). It’s a good sign when folks answer these questions seriously -even when there’s some dirty laundry. And yes, I was told the dirty laundry.
          Sometimes the info isn’t all perfect.

  146. STEMLabRat*

    I am in some sort of really complicated predicament and I was wondering if you could help me.
    I am about to graduate with a PhD in a STEM-related area in the next month. I am also an international student who identifies as LGBT. Very recently, there were elections in my home country and a guy who is extreme alt-right just won with massive support of the population. It is pretty obvious that going back to my home country is not only something I don’t want — it’s also dangerous for me because of who I am, and because this new president is signaling towards a dictatorship.

    The problem is, I haven’t found any job (academic or not) so far. The only opportunity I had implied in having to come back to my home country, and I declined. While I know that funding is scarce in science right now, I know at least a few people that could have given me postdoctoral opportunities — but they didn’t. In a couple of cases, it was a matter of ‘the experience you have doesn’t match exactly what I wanted in a postdoc’, and in others it was more like ‘you are a great scientist, but there are people that are better, I’m sure someone else will give you a job’. These people all know of my situation. It is becoming really difficult to interact with them and keeping my mouth shut, knowing that they care more about “choosing only the best” than helping me out (it’s just a 2-year underpaid postdoc fellowship, not a lifetime job!).

    Anyway, my search continues. I have been writing to people to see if they have opportunities (most people actually answer me and say they don’t have funding), and I started applying to industry jobs too (even though I have absolutely no industry experience whatsoever). So far, nothing, but what I wonder is how to approach my situation. I don’t want to sound the “help-the-poor-me” kind of person, but I am truly desperate and scared. I have tried to keep my situation hidden when I am contacting people or applying for positions, but I wonder if being open about it would actually help me with my search, or if it is for the best that I don’t talk about it.

    I don’t know if people don’t believe the situation is bad enough, or if they just don’t care, but I am feeling very defeated right now and I can’t count on anyone (no family or partner, friends can’t do much either).

    Any suggestion you could give me, would be greatly appreciated!

    Thank you

    She/her pronouns

      1. STEMLabRat*

        While I strongly preferred to stay in the US, I have been applying or talking to people in multiple continents. At least from an academia perspective it seems like it’s bad everywhere.

    2. Temperance*

      So, I wouldn’t mention your specific political situation when looking for jobs. This is not career advice, but have you thought about applying for asylum in the US?

      1. STEMLabRat*

        Yes, I have thought about it. It would be a very complicated situation because I would not be allowed to work, legally, while the application is processed. I can’t really support myself without any job. Not to mention the asylum laws, which would not be fully in my favor (since I have been here for a long time, versus fleeing the country from imminent danger).

    3. Psyche*

      Have you tried talking to your advisor for advice? She may be able to direct you towards people she knows are looking or even keep you on temporarily as a postdoc while you continue your search. Also try looking at job boards that post postdoc positions. You can also look into if there are any fellowships you would be eligible for so that you can come with funding (I know this is much harder for international students, but worth looking into). Depending on your field you could try expanding your search to academic hospitals. A lot of research is done there and not everyone thinks to look.

      1. STEMLabRat*

        Yeah, I have done all of that, unfortunately. They can’t keep me as of now, and one of them is reaching out to people and the other one isn’t (but if I ask she’ll write to folks). I look for positions in job boards and I get forwarded all the emails. I work in Earth Sciences and most of the places I would like to work for are actually US citizens only. As for fellowships, I have applied last year but this year their deadline coincides with my PhD defense so I really don’t have the time or the mental health to actually work on that.

        Thanks for your input!

        1. Psyche*

          I’m so sorry. If you university has a any administrative support for international students I highly suggest you talk to them and tell them the extent of the problem with going back to your country. They my be aware of more resources.

          You my also want to look into if it is feasible to delay your defense for another semester to give yourself some breathing room. I have known several international students who delayed their defense specifically so that they would have time to find a postdoc position while on a student visa. Of course that depends entirely on department policies and whether you receive a stipend and can afford it.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would also reach out about your situation to LGBT+ organizations, especially ones that have experience with asylum seekers from other countries. They may have resources, contacts, and advice that will help you in general, even if not specifically with the job search.

    5. Robin Q*

      Sorry this is a little late-I hope you see this. I’m sorry about your situation, it sounds really rough. Some of my advice may or may not apply depending on what STEM field you are in.

      1) It is VERY hard to get a job in industry in the US if they need to sponsor your visa. Especially if you aren’t particularly skilled in your field. Science industry positions are often J1 visas which are pretty complicated to handle, compared with H1B visas, which postdocs usually have. I don’t know if you’re checking this with companies that you apply to, but keep that in mind.

      2) More positively, keep applying for postdocs! Network like crazy, if your advisor isn’t helping you make contacts, it’s time to reach out to your thesis committee, other professors you have relationships with, or your university’s career center.

      3) See if you qualify for any grants as an international postdoc and apply for them, it may be easier to find a lab if you have some funding of your own.

      4) Can you stay in your lab for a bit after you graduate and begin working as a postdoc there or in a neighboring lab that you are collaborating with? This could give you some breathing room and time to find another more long term position.

      Good luck with this!

      1. STEMLabRat*

        Hi Robin Q, thanks for the message!
        Unfortunately I can’t stay in the lab because my advisor doesn’t have funding for me at this moment. He is trying and it might come through very last minute but I can’t count on that.

        The neighboring lab which is also run by a member of my committee is one of the guys that said “you are a great scientist, but there are people that are better, I’m sure someone else will give you a job”. I don’t want to give much detail, but it’s a private institution that gives out fellowships every year — I applied last year but wasn’t chosen. Not only the competition is great but also I don’t think my research fits the vision of how the department would go (arguably).

        I have talked to every single person I could, reached out to my (other) committee members too, all vague, dismissive responses. While I feel that some want to help but can’t (it’s not that they don’t have interest, they just don’t have funding), I can’t shake the feeling that many just don’t care. I am the person that networks the most among those I know, but I guess being known for being a pioneer in my field (which is weird given I’m a PhD student…) means that people only see me fit to work with this particular method (!). And if there is no one else that really does it, it means very few people are looking for someone like me.

        I don’t have the mental health and the time to, right now, write grants for anything. I did some last year and got all rejections. It’s quite complicated because all of them have the same deadline as my defense date. I just can’t do it right now. If I could, the one-year break would be welcomed, but I can’t, really.

        Thanks for the suggestions, though. I feel like I have tried most of what you said, and I’m about to give up.

    6. Gumby*

      I’m sorry you are having a hard time finding a job and that the situation feels so scary. I do have confidence that you’ll find something particularly since you studied in a STEM field.

      However, I wouldn’t bring up your situation when you apply. Honestly, “you’re great but another candidate was a superstar” and “not quite the skill set that we need in this position” are very normal reasons for not being selected for a particular job. In fact, those are two things that Alison mentions quite frequently as reasons you might not have gotten a position that you thought you were perfect for. Choosing the best candidate to fill the position is the whole point of interviewing from the employer’s point of view. You should sell them on what you can bring to the company / group – not what they can do to help you.

      I know a long job search can drain the best of us so also look into other ways you can care for your mental/emotional health in the meantime.

      1. STEMLabRat*

        Yeah, I agree with you and I don’t want to be the pity candidate anyway. For industry, I have been trying to sell myself well, there aren’t just that many positions that relate to what I do directly (I have a limited time to apply, since I am finishing the dissertation, so I had to cut back a little).

        What bothers me is that these people that I mentioned know me in a personal capacity (we are not talking about a CEO or HR person). One of them knew me since I moved to the US (and I worked for him as TA for a couple of years by his choice), the other one is in my committee and runs a place that gives out many fellowships every year. Particularly for the fellowship one, it is completely flexible in the sense that they don’t require a specific skill set. From what I know, the choice is quite subjective even though they do tend to go for the “superstars”.

        It bothers me, I have lunch with these people every day, they know about my situation. I feel like the support I get are from other students/postdocs, but faculty people really don’t even say “I’m sorry you are in this situation”. It’s been a constant, and it’s weird how they won’t even ask me how I am, or mention the election or anything. I knew that most faculty don’t relate to student issues, but this is more than “looking for job”. I can count on the fingers of one hand how many faculty/research staff has said “hey, I heard that your country elected a crazy dictator Nazi, I’m sorry, it’s hard”.

        My mental health is really close to being exhausted — I have been taking care of it, but it’s getting quite hopeless. Thank you for the answer.

  147. Chocolate Teapot*

    I work in an open-plan office and my team all sit together on adjacent desks. We often talk about our different projects as we regularly collaborate, or just need to bounce ideas off each other.

    The next team along in the open plan office has an employee who keeps complaining we are too noisy. She has been known to shout at us for laughing at a joke and reported us to her boss, with the result we were discreetly reminded to be quiet. Whilst working in an open plan office is always a problem, the complaining employee has a tendency to lose her temper and shriek like a fishwife. Other employees have to see her about projects and without fail, Fishwife will shout at them that they have not filled out forms correctly or sent the wrong file etc.

    I was away from my desk for a short period this week and returned to find Fishwife on my phone. It turns out that my phone was ringing for a while, and the other people in my team didn’t pick it up. Fishwife has nothing to do with our team and it appears she is becoming more passive agressive.

    Anyone else have a Fishwife in their company?

    1. Xarcady*

      Yes, two of them on the third floor. We have cubicles, but voices carry no matter what you do.

      These two people have signs up everywhere, even in the break room, telling people to be quiet. I have met coworkers from other floors who are scared to go to the third floor because they don’t want to be yelled at for making noise.

      One of these people complained to my supervisor that I was making too much noise. My offense? I was asking a work-related question to a coworker. I was whispering. My supervisor gave me the biggest eye-roll as she reported this, and she suggested we move our questions into a conference room.

      Mind you, when the two quiet police want to talk or even yell across the cubicles, it’s okay.

    2. schnauzerfan*

      Many modern workplaces are simply too quiet to work in. When I first joined the workplace (at a library no less) there was typing on electric typewriters, a noisy furnace, story time and sing along… these were soon followed by faxes and teletypes and modems. OMG. There was a constant hubub. Now I’ve moved to an academic library and the noisy machines have pretty much vanished and people complain because Sarah’s shoes squeak and Lois taps her pen. I’ve considered getting a street noise generator just to smoosh some of the silence. We put a white noise generator in so that people can have a work conversation without feeling like they just belched in church.

  148. Party Pooper*

    In the span of about two months, we have had three baby showers, a gift exchange, a potluck, office trick or treating, and contributions for an employee who experienced a loss. Now, we were just told that our holiday party is in less than a month–where the expectation is that we will bring a Secret Santa gift and a dish for the potluck.

    I’ve contributed to everything thus far, but enough is enough. I make a “decent” amount for a nonprofit employee, but I have my own financial obligations to take care of.

    Anybody else dealing with this? Any words of wisdom about bowing out without being a Scrooge?

    1. Psyche*

      You should be able to opt out of Secret Santa. Just tell them that you would rather not participate. If you are neither giving nor receiving a gift, it should be fine. As for the potluck, it really depends on the office culture. If you have the vacation days, it might be easiest just to take the day off. If not, do something cheap. If you cook there are many things you can make that are inexpensive, especially if you go with a side dish.

      If you feel comfortable with it, you can even say that you would rather not participate this year since your budget is tight right now.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        Personally I might just cheap out – way out – on future activities versus visibly refuse to participate. My potluck contribution from now on is a bag of chips. My secret santa gift (which I always re-gift from past secret santas TBH) is something I had at home or picked up around the corner for less than $5, and I used work time to go get it.

        Since you feel that you overspent on these past activities it’s okay to plan to cut way back for the entire next year. But actually refusing may make it a bigger deal than it needs to be, IMO. Then again, I’m pretty conflict-avoidant, someone else might have no problem speaking up.

    2. Calmeye*

      That sucks. In my old work they had employee gift contributions for EVERYTHING – new house, new baby, birthdays, graduation, etc. Being in a big team the requirement to donate was just constant. It was touted as “optional” but if you didn’t chip in you couldn’t sign the card; so everyone knew who contributed and who didn’t. At the time I was a lowly graduate so had no authority to say anything. Now that I’m a manager any company events come out of the company budget. I’m also going to eliminate Secret Santa this year because, c’mon. Who needs another stupid candle or box of chocolates? Let’s do with one less obligatory gift you need to buy for Christmas.

      It’s likely you’re not the only person feeling this way. Could you bring it up casually with a couple of other people and see if you can mention it to your boss together?

      If this isn’t possible, I would just go really cheap for these events. Recycle old gifts or unopened body wash at home, homemade muffins, etc.

      1. zora*

        About one more piece of junk: I am so there with you.

        My boss brings it up every year as a random thought “Oh, should we do Secret Santa?” and even though we have a very small team, I push back on it every year. Seriously, I really don’t need another piece of junk that someone else picked out for me. I live in a tiny urban apartment, and I am trying to get rid of some of my stuff, so having to spend my own money just to get a *thing* that I am then going to have to deal with is like the opposite of fun.

        Also, I am the lowest paid person here, so that is part of my internal reasoning as well, but I haven’t mentioned that out loud yet. Even though I love my coworkers, I just don’t want to spend $20 of my own money on them.

        I agree that all work events should be paid by the company’s budget, or just not do it.

  149. Anonq*

    Have a work question I could use some advice on- how do you tell the difference between “normal” feedback and “this could get you fired” feedback?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Honestly, if you’re not clear, you should be able to ask your supervisor. In most cases I assume that anything a supervisor has chosen to raise with me is pretty serious, and also being insubordinate is fireable even if the issue itself wouldn’t have been that big a deal. But if you’re honestly not sure you can deliver the change they’re asking about (not just, would rather not, which is probably not an option) – I might ask something like, “how serious is this issue with X or Y? Of course I’m going to try to work on it starting today, but are you bringing it up as something you’d like to see, or is this a central part of what it would take to succeed in this job?”

    2. Calmeye*

      Unfortunately it depends a lot on the individual manager. If your manager is someone who’s uncomfortable with giving feedback, she may mean to say “this could get you fired” but actually fluff up the conversation with vague hints or sandwich between compliments; so the message is diluted.

      If you’re not sure I would just ask more questions about it.

  150. Calmeye*

    I’m experiencing communication difficulties with a close colleague due to cultural differences. She gets upset on occasions when I disagree with her because I’m “too direct.” By “too direct” I mean conversations where I simply state, “I don’t think that idea is right because of X reasons, how about Z?”

    She is from a culture where people communicate disagreements much more indirectly – e.g., “That is an interesting idea, I will have a think about it” = “no.”

    I don’t want to go into whose communication style is right or wrong. It just boils down to the fact that we are different; we’re not going to change how each other thinks/feels; but ultimately we still have to learn how to get along professionally and work cooperatively together.

    Has anyone else worked with colleagues from other cultures where you had to adjust your communication styles/work habits? Any advice on my situation – scripts I can use, advice on how to communicate with each other more effectively in a middle ground area?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Can you call this out with her directly? “I was doing some reading the other day about communication styles, here is this article about direct and indirect styles. It seems like both are valuable. I saw a lot of the two of us in that piece. If I try to work with you in your preferred style, can you also try to work with me in mine?”

    2. Book Badger*

      There’s a couple of great articles (plus the MetaFilter thread where it all began) about Ask Culture v. Guess Culture (or, as it’s sometimes called in academia, low context cultures v. high context cultures). That sounds like the problem you’re describing. I’m sure there would be advice on how to communicate between the two if you looked.

    3. BRR*

      This is me with a lot of my office. I’ve been tattle tailed on to my manager for being rude when I use AAM scripts. I just find I have to use much softer language and my manage is ok with saying they also need to learn about directness.

    4. LQ*

      You can’t change them. But you can adjust your own style. I think in general aiming for middle ground is aiming too short. Should you have to change? No. Do you want to get your work done? Yes. Then dig in and come up with something else.

      Oddly someone saying that you’re too direct is a fairly direct piece of feedback, so if it’s coming from her I’d be a little eyebrow raisey about it and wonder if that’s what she means or if she just means “you don’t agree with me and I don’t like it”.

      I work in a fairly indirect work culture and people rarely say I’m too direct. At most direct they say, “Oh it’s so refreshing that you’re so direct.” but they don’t mean it at all. (There are a couple here who really like it and they are AMAZING!) But frequently it’s something like they talk to someone else in sort of flowery terms about how hard it is to find people who are quite like LQ because people like LQ don’t tend to stick around in public service/state/role/whatever for long.

      As to how do you aim for indirect. You just skip the part where you say, “I don’t think this works.” and go right to the “How about we try___.” More of the yes and approach rather than the no but. Or you can acknowledge the work that went into something and then redirect. “This looks really great, I can tell you did a ton of work on it. This is really interesting, we could do X too.” And then you get rid of the Y that is there and put in the X.

      And yes. Direct is best blahblahblah (I know you didn’t say it, but that is 100% the theme around here). But really if you are smart enough you can find a way to get to communication with someone who is genuinely engaged but indirect. Take the extra 15 seconds to at least put something at the start of it and call it done rather than fighting about being right because direct is better.

      1. Grinch*

        Seconding this, I was surprised that you got such direct feedback! In my experience (direct background working in indirect culture) the biggest pitfall is understanding/communicating “no.”
        -facial expressions and body language. If you say “We could try X” and she quietly exhales, or you notice a little tension around her mouth=no.
        -silence. Could mean she is processing, but more likely means “no.” Or silence after a filler phrase, like “Uh huh…..”
        -anything less than enthusiasm, or phrases like “I will think about it,” “I see,” “Yeah…….” “Hm…” One time I even got “Hey, yeah, that’s a really good idea!” but his tone indicated it was a no.

        Also to add to LQ’s comment, many resources in English assume that direct is better (even the book The Culture Map, which is otherwise very good). It’s not that direct is better, it’s that it’s good to acknowledge and share our assumptions, and for both parties to take responsibility for communication (as opposed to direct style, where the speaker is responsible and active listening is not as crucial). The key with indirect communication styles is active listening, so you bear just as much responsibility for understanding as being understood. Learning to work with indirect communication styles is a really useful skill globally as many countries with this style are becoming big players–good luck!

  151. CA PM*

    I’ve been working on a temporary assignment since April. I don’t know anyone at this job. The recruitment agency told me this job was extended until the end of the year. The holiday party is next month. It’s after hours and a location that is an hour’s drive away. The attire is listed as cocktail, so I would need to buy something to wear. I was invited, but I’m not sure I should go.

    At previous jobs not going to a holiday party was bad for the employee. It was seen as as snub.

    I don’t really want to go. What should I do?

    1. Psyche*

      If it is a temporary assignment, does it matter if they feel it is a snub? Can you say that you already have plans or start feeling under the weather at the end of the day?

    2. Four lights*

      You could also ask coworkers about previous holiday parties, to get a feel for whether it will be a good time or not. “Hey, they holiday party is coming up–what do you guys usually do for that?”

    3. Asenath*

      Check to see if it would be seen as a snub here, and if it’s required for a temporary employee. Holiday parties aren’t always required – I’ve been happily ignoring the big after-hours ones where I work for years, and no one’s even noticed.

    4. Detective Amy Santiago*

      There can be legal ramifications for treating a temp like an employee, so I’d check with your agency and ask if you really are allowed to go.

    5. Girl friday*

      I would go. It would be seen as a snub since you’ve been there since April. The hour commute is a pain, but maybe there’s something else to do in the area that interests you. I always tell my daughters: it’s fine to walk in the front door, greet the host, grab a drink, walk around and talk to people and walk out the back door. You don’t have to stay very long, just make an appearance. It’s so much easier just to show up when there’s a question of whether or not that’s the right thing to do. Leaves you worry-free for other questions that come up around the holidays.

  152. Calmeye*

    My assistant gave notice to quit end of last month. She told me repeatedly she was quitting to move to another city to be with her family.

    Then I found out that she’s not actually moving. One of our suppliers called me to say she applied for a job with them, which is based locally. She’d already been offered a job and he wanted to let me know so we didn’t think his company had poached her. I know the supplier very well, he definitely wouldn’t have poached.

    I’m…stunned. I mean, our supplier is a great employer and I’m happy that she’s going somewhere that would help her career. But I’m surprised and also upset she lied to me about moving to another city. Particularly because if she works for our supplier, I would be bumping into her sooner or later. She knows her new work is within walking distance from my house! And I visit there on occasions for work purposes.

    My assistant and I had what I thought was a strong professional relationship. While I wouldn’t say we were buddies, we were close work mates and connected on a personal level as well. She’d quit the job previously before coming back to work with us. And when she quit the first time I absolutely did not give her any hard time/pushed her out/gave any reason for her to think it was unsafe for her to resign. She left on excellent terms.

    The best explanation I have is she knows she quit at a very, very bad time and she feels guilty/embarrassed. I’m okay with her resigning – it sucks, but it’s what happens at work. I’m bewildered she lied to me about her reason for quitting. She doesn’t have to. In fact, it’s weird that she talked in such detail about her moving (how nervous she was about living in New City, aspects of it her husband wasn’t going to like over there, how her kids were unhappy to change schools, etc.)….when all this time she actually had another job offer lined up just down the road.

    Do I say anything? Just let it go?

    1. Lia*

      Maybe she applied for the job, AND intended to move if she did not get it, but wanted to move. Then got the new job and therefore the move is off.

      1. Calmeye*

        No. I can’t be bothered posting the whole thing here but she definitely was not going to move.

        1. Queen Anon*

          How do you know the move didn’t just fall through or that, after talking it over more with her husband, they decided together that the move was a bad idea and backed out. Unless she told you outright that she had never planned to move, you just can’t know that.

          1. Calmeye*

            I’m…not going to post everything here but she wasn’t going to move.

            She also discussed her “move” to great detail after she’d already signed her new employment contract with our supplier.

            It’s weird.

    2. irene adler*

      I’d let it go. Clearly she felt the need to lie. What’s there to gain by calling her out on the lie?

      Yes, you’ll run into her. Or, she’ll make herself crazy trying to avoid you whenever she sees you coming. Her problem.
      If you do meet up with her, just smile and mention something about her having quite a commute from New City to Old City.
      Some people just gotta have drama. I’ve known a few.

      1. Lil Fidget*

        If she’s young, I bet she’s just SUPER embarrassed and feels bad and terrible, and is really taking this all too personally. If I were you, I might out of the kindness of my heart, begin the conversation by saying something to give her perspective like, “whenever I take on an employee in an entry level position, I know we’re not going to be able to keep them in that role forever – everybody moves on eventually, and sometimes the timing is bad, but that’s just the cost of doing business. Nobody would reasonably expect you to pass on a great opportunity out of loyalty to your first job. So that being said, I just found out that …”

        Signed, somebody who always told these kinds of stupid fibs as a young’en out of of some kind of weird misplaced extreme social anxiety.

    3. Psyche*

      I think it depends on how you feel about it. If you feel capable of keeping emotions at “confused,” I would probably bring it up. Something like “I just heard that you got a job at Supplier. They are a great company. I’m concerned about why you felt the need to lie about it when you resigned. I want all my employees to succeed and would have hoped that you would know that I would be happy for you.”

    4. fposte*

      I’d let it go. If you see her again, accept whatever you’re told about why she’s here and keep letting it go.

      Here’s a thing that I keep learning as a boss: it’s easy for us to forget about the power differential when we have a good relationship with our staff. But they don’t and they can’t. The relationship you had with her is therefore not the same one as the relationship she had with you, and that’s common and okay. She needs more protection than you do. I don’t know why it pushed her into detailed creation of a pretend new life when it was neither necessary nor true, and that does seem an ill-judged response, but it’s not something that needs to be addressed, especially right now.

      2. Calmeye*

        This is so true, and thank you for raising it.

        Having human emotions, though, I still can’t immediately eliminate the feelings of hurt/upset. I wonder what I have done wrong to make her believe it wasn’t safe to just tell me honestly she was moving on to another role.

        But you’re right and I agree with you. It’s just something I need to keep remembering and practicing.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          It almost certainly wasn’t you. Maybe it was a weird impulse she had to talk about moving when the issue first came up, and then she committed to it and didn’t feel like she could just say “Oh, things changed, I’ll be staying in town.” Maybe she thought you would take it personally and somehow mess up the new job out of spite if you knew she was staying but wanted to work elsewhere. Maybe lots of things, but all of them on her end. It’s weird and hurtful, but I don’t think there’s anything you could have done differently.

          So if you run into her, just go with the polite if unspoken fiction that things changed somehow for her and funny coincidence, now she works down the street.

        2. valentine*

          Let it go and, when you see her, be kind and pleasant. Don’t mention the move or the other job. Just say something like, “It’s great to see you working here with Joe (supplier).” Lead by example. If you have hard or hurt feelings, you don’t have to, and certainly don’t share with her or anyone else you have in common. There’s nothing to be gained by that, but you have great potential here to continue your end of the great relationship.

  153. WTRCLR*

    TL;DR I have a worker’s comp claim and the whole thing has been a confusing mess. It’s severely affecting my mental health and I want to have someone on my side, but I’m afraid if I get a lawyer and then need to walk away, I’ll be stuck with a giant bill from the lawyer.

    I work as a grocery stocker and I’m known for being good at rotating products. One of my coworkers quit and left his aisle in a shambles, and I was told to put it back in order. Rotation is normally pretty hard on my wrists, since you have to pick up a lot of small items and twist them around to see the dates, then put them back in order. I normally do less than 30 minutes of rotation at a time, but on that aisle I was rotating for 2-3+ hours straight, and I hurt my wrist.

    I work night shift and this happened on a Friday. On Monday (after a day off), I went to worker’s comp. My wrist wasn’t hurting at the time, and they did an x-ray. I was given (mostly useless) advice about ergonomics and a 10lb weight limit. That Friday, I had a follow up and was told that my x-ray possibly indicated arthritis. I was told that wasn’t a worker’s comp issue, so I needed to see my regular doctor about it. I was released from worker’s comp without restrictions. However, my wrist had gotten worse in spite of the restrictions, and the worker’s comp doctor refused to recheck me for tendinitis. Afterwards, I immediately went to my regular doctor. He gave me a brace and a 15lb restriction until I got an MRI. I went back to the worker’s comp doctor to confirm the restrictions and keep my case open.

    The MRI was completely clean – no arthritis, and no tendinitis. However, I am still hurting. And to make things worse, by favoring my right hand, I’ve been overworking my left and now that wrist is sore. I tried to go back to worker’s comp with my MRI, but they won’t accept it because they didn’t order it. Also, I requested a different doctor, and although HR says I can pick one of four, the hospital itself won’t let me see anyone else.

    Here’s the thing: I called a lawyer, and they sent me a contract that only takes 15% of my settlement, but it says that if I want to back out, I’ll have to repay them $250/hr for time spent on my case. I have been having panic attacks and can’t sleep because of all this crap. Worse, the second time I came back from the worker’s comp doctor, not only did I have a panic attack, but for the first time in 15+ years, I wanted to self-harm. I ended up calling a suicide hotline to help me cope (and didn’t hurt myself).

    I am working on finding a new job. But until then, I have to keep trying to work with worker’s comp, and I feel like I need a lawyer to help me. However, once I find a new job (that hopefully won’t be hard on my wrists), I’ll probably want to drop the claim for the sake of my mental health, unless my wrists are still hurting. Is it worth it to get a lawyer involved? I don’t want to be stuck dealing with this case a year or more after I’ve left the job that caused it. But I also don’t want to be left with permanent damage to my wrists because I don’t have the clout to make the doctor treat me properly.

    1. Bostonian*

      I have missed work in the past due to tendinitis from repetitive motions at work. It was probably the most stressful and depressing time I’ve had, so I am so sorry to hear that you are going through this. Please seek out support wherever you can find it: friends, family, therapist, etc. I’m glad to hear you called a hotline when you needed to.

      Lawyers for worker’s comp case: Don’t even bother trying to gather a case unless you have a DOCTOR willing to put in writing that you are unable to work. Even if an occupational nurse deems that you are unable to work, that will not hold up. If you ARE able to get in writing from a doctor that you are unable to work, don’t go back to another doctor until you are 100% better. If another doctor puts in writing that you are OK to work, your employer could make you come back to work.

      Another note about doctors, make sure you are requesting copies of all of your medical records. You’d be surprised how many times they get it wrong. Me saying “my right had still hurts when I do X for Y amount of time” shows up in the records as “Bostonian is doing fine and is feeling good today”.

      Are you able to get FMLA protection for your job? I know that won’t help you get paid, but the only way you’re going to heal is if your injured wrist has the time it needs to rest. Do PT if you can (that was one thing my job actually covered). I was off of work for 4 months and didn’t get paid worker’s comp for any of it. I was lucky I had savings, low bills, and student loan payments were on hold because I was also taking classes.

      When I finally did return to work, I was not 100% better, but was able to return to a role that was less demanding on my injury. If there is any way they can give you another role at your job, that’s worth looking into. Keep job searching, because that will be your ticket out.

      Another word of caution: Be on your best behavior at work. They know you’re injured, so if you have a shady boss/manager, they may try to push you out. I hope that’s not something you have to worry about, but don’t even give them a reason to THINK about it.

      I hope things get better for you soon. I know it’s hard and frustrating and there are a million things you have to do, paperwork you have to get and fill out, people you have to call, appointments… it feels like a second job! In the end, you have to do what’s best for you. Please take care of yourself. And remember that if you don’t get justice here, it’s not the end of the world. You can find another job that won’t hurt you and this whole mess will be a distant memory.

      1. neverjaunty*

        Sorry, should have added:

        The lawyer who tried to tell you that you needed to pay them back was super shady and you dodged a bullet. Check with your county bar association for referrals, or ask friends who have been through workers’ comp. Look up your lawyer on the state bar website – in my state, this will tell you if this person has ever been disciplined for misconduct.

        But your employers’ workers comp insurer will screw you over if they know you don’t have a lawyer. That’s unfortunately just how it is.

        1. WTRCLR*

          Here’s what the contract says about payment: “Client and attorneys agree that said attorneys shall receive for their services a sum equal to fifteen percent of the total recovery so obtained, plus expenses. […] Said attorneys agree to charge nothing for their services if nothing is received or recovered. However, should the client withdraw, attorneys shall have a lien against the case for their time invested in the case at a rate of $250 per hour, plus expenses.”

          Does that really sound shady? It seems logical to me that they wouldn’t want people getting better and then dropping the case without reaching a settlement.

        1. valentine*

          Get a lawyer and stick with the case. If you do all you can and it doesn’t go your way, at least you’ll know, versus dropping it and, years from now, having problems that stem from this and it being too late to hold the company responsible.

          1. WTRCLR*

            Update: Worker’s comp doctor (same one) saw me for a follow up and basically said that since my MRI was clean, there was nothing she could do for me. Gave me a paper that says it’s not work related and said if I still have pain I need to see my own doctor.

            Getting a lawyer is what I want to do, but I’m just afraid that, if I get out of this job, I’ll end up still seeing worker’s comp doctors and dealing with this mess for years later. But, on the other hand, I won’t be able to afford physical therapy if worker’s comp doesn’t cover it. And if my wrists don’t heal, I will have to quit my job.

            My mental health is in the dirt right now. It’s hard enough to leave the house for work, much less go to a doctor who doesn’t believe me. You know what’s funny? I feel guilty for this. I know I’m not lying, I know my pain is real, and yet they make me feel like I’m faking. My dad was a major gaslighter and this is hitting every old wound he left behind. It’s not my fault, but I can’t stop hating myself for this happening.

  154. ThatLibTech*

    Looking for resources, websites, and/or suggestions on how to organize a supplies closet of doom!

    While it’s a contained mess, it’s still pretty chaotic. No one I don’t think has ever really organized it before. It’s a slender walk-in closet and one side has shelves that take up the entire wall. There’s also a cabinet in there to hold smaller things, first aid kid, etc.

    Basically any tips would be awesome! I’m looking to do this as my new year project for work and everyone’s on board with it because no one likes going in there!

    Thanks!

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      baskets and labels. I mean, I’m only speaking from my personal closet organization experience here, but there’s something about have labeled baskets/bins/trays on shelves that makes everything look SO MUCH BETTER. And you can group bins alphabetically or by type of office supply or by what gets used much or all of the above. Heavy stuff should be lower to the ground. Common use items should be at easy seeing/reaching height.

    2. Notthemomma*

      Get a label maker! If you can, remove everything from the closet before deciding what goes where. The more often an item is needed, the closest to the door and within reach it should be. No one should have to stoop or reach for common items. Seasonal/quarterly gets the real estate near the floor, and yearly/seldom gets the high shelves. When you are done, make a ‘map’ of what is where and hang on the inside of the door for reference. We’re doing a massive clean in a couple weeks and I’m almost giddy about it!

    3. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

      I’ve had to reorganize a ton of spaces in my work.
      If there’s a bunch of little items, labeled baskets/containers of varying sizes helps keep that under control. For larger stuff, I usually delineate (if needed) with bookends, and then label the shelf area with what is in that spot (to help people put it back correctly).
      Stuff in the cabinet can be sorted into smaller labeled containers too, if it’s a mixed-goods cabinet.

  155. HailRobonia*

    My office has been extremely stressed out lately because of various demanding projects, so I bought some glue and googly eyes and made pet rocks and left them on my coworkers desks to say “you rock!”

    I left them anonymously but they all know that I am the googly eye guy ;)

  156. Middle School Teacher*

    Super jealous. We’ve been at -6C or colder all week and today we had freezing rain :(

  157. Toys in the attic*

    I have a confession to make.

    I saw a passive-aggressive note in the kitchen at work this week and…. THREW IT IN THE TRASH.

    1. KX*

      I have a confession to make. Someone brought in disgusting candy in a plastic zip baggie, and then there were leftover sandwiches, and I wanted to save a sandwich for the next day and needed a baggie, so I dumped the candy in the trash and put my sandwich in it, and then put it in the fridge.

        1. KX*

          It was Halloween Candy from Home overflow, on the communal counter, a week later. Loose M&Ms in a baggie. Loose white chocolate pumpkin flavored M&Ms. But yes. I threw it out.

      2. Girl friday*

        I’m getting the feeling of someone filling their purse with tea biscuits. Please correct me if I’m wrong! These things happen, but I hope the leftover sandwiches didn’t make you ill. Someone could have coughed on those!

    2. Extra Vitamins*

      Did you ball it up and hurl it in, or place it delicately face up on the top of the trash so it can be read (ideally in contact with something squishy to prevent retrieval)?

    3. Trouble*

      We have a passive aggressive note on the fridge in our ‘tea kitchen’ about using one bottle of milk at a time in date order only. I have to admit sometimes I open a new milk when there is a half empty one just to say screw you note. There are like 50 of us and we all drink a lot of tea/coffee. That milk is all getting used, it hardly matters. We are more likely to run out than waste any.

  158. Emma*

    How do you expand your circles professionally when you work for a small company? There are only 5 of us in my office and I find it difficult to meet people. In case it is relevant, this is my first job after graduating in June 2017 and I’ve been there for a year. I’ve been attending events and talks but it hasn‘t really led anywhere. Any suggestions?

    1. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      Depending on your type of work–volunteering for specific events or joining local meetup groups in your field? They seem to be better suited to smaller groups and better conversations.

    2. Emily S.*

      Do you have any local YP groups? They generally host regular events (such as happy hours), and some have a volunteering mission, which I think is nice.

      This is more social, not professional, but I’ve had some success meeting people in a book club — not sure if that’s relevant.

  159. NoLongerBurnedOut*

    New job offer, all background/drug stuff done, and I start Monday! Looks to be a good team and a decent(-ish) salary bump. I’m pumped. :D

    Happy Friday, ya’ll!

  160. The Other Dawn*

    For anyone that has been through a company acquisition (your company is the one acquired) and you’re not moving on to the acquiring company, how did you keep up your/your team’s motivation to work out your final months?

    The acquisition was final in October. Most of my team, including myself, are working out the remaining months (end of February) until we move on. One person took the job offer, but is still continuing to look for something better. Since we are on the regulatory compliance side of things, we are WAY less busy than teams that are responsible for IT, core platform admin, ebanking, lending, etc. We still have certain tasks we do everyday/week/month, but most of what I personally do, as well as a few things the team does, don’t make sense to do anymore so we are getting to the point where we are very far ahead on certain tasks and are now trying to fill the time. I’m probably hardest hit by this since most of what I do (did) is policy and procedure writing, making sure things are tip-top for audit and exam time, tweaking the software application parameters and stuff like that. I have to say, I never thought I’d actually dread trying to fill my day. Right now I’d say I can fill maybe 20% of my day with work. I’m dipping into a few routine things certain team members do, but that gives them less to do. And the less I have to do, the less I want to actually do work when it comes in; it’s a vicious, soul-sucking cycle and it’s only November!

    I’ve been trying to think of things we/I can do to fill the next few months, but it’s tough. I’ll be working on a certification, but it’s not something that will fill all my time. I don’t really have the option of asking other departments if they need help since most of what they do is so different from what mine does, although I do have the general experience from working in another bank long-term. I could ask if they have any menial tasks that need doing, though.

    So how did you get through it? What kinds of things did you do to stay somewhat focused and not horribly bored?

    (If it matters, the people who are not moving on to the acquiring company are staying until the system conversion happens. Until that time, we’re working on two separate systems, which is why many of us are still around.)

    1. Workerbee*

      Eesh, that’s a long time to have to sit through! Things I can think of:

      –Acquiring anything, metrics/work examples/hard or online copies of things you did to show future employers
      –If you can get away with it, online studying for things after your certification is done?
      –“Work from home” if you can
      –Unless it’s a really crazy time right now with the acquisition, you could still ask other departments if you can help, and not just the stapling and filing tasks, either. Do a Walk-in-Shoes day or shadow somebody.

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Assuming we can’t take on much from other departments, I’m thinking there may be very long lunches, shorter days, and lots of Christmas shopping in our future! Our new “supervisors” are an hour away and basically have no contact with us at all. Basically, they approve our time sheets and that’s it. They never contact us except by email, and that’s only if there’s a time sheet problem. They haven’t a clue as to what we’re working on, how we fill our time or even really who we are. I met my new supervisor prior to the acquisition closing date, but my team members know their supervisor’s name and that’s it. She never reached out to them to introduce herself. I guess because I am still their manager, but no longer their “official” manager. It’s very weird to work this way.

    2. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I’ve not been on that side but I know a few QAs who have done some studying for some of the certification exams in their downtime–do you have any of those that you’ve not had time for previously that would look good on your resume?

      1. The Other Dawn*

        Yes, I’m working on an industry-related one now that would give me some initials to go with my name. I was able to negotiate for the acquiring bank to pay for it since they didn’t offer me a job. Also, there was a conference that was already paid for by the old bank. I had the option to still go, but I felt that I’d get more out of a certification over the long term that I would a conference.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Are there parts of compliance/audit preparedness etc that will carry over to the new company? Are those documented well? Is that something that could be done during down time?

      1. The Other Dawn*

        They’re a much bigger company, so they already have things well-documented. And I/we don’t have a job with them after February anyway. Unfortunately there’s nothing for us to do on their side since they’re on a completely different system than us with no way for us to use that system. My department is here to just keep things going on our system until conversion and a month afterwards.

        I’ve told the team to feel free to fill their time with job hunting–although it’s a bit early yet–, homework (one is working on a Masters), or anything else they deem useful to do that will help them after their job has ended.

        1. WellRed*

          Is it really that early, though? February isn’t that far off and with the holidays things will take forever.

          1. The Other Dawn*

            I posted below, but things don’t usually move that slowly in banking. It’s usually an exception for the process to take months. Also, more positions tend to be posted after the holidays when new budgets have been approved and new positions created/openings posted.

    4. Gumby*

      When my team was in that situation we… started coming in only 1 day each week. And when we did come in it was probably more socializing than actual work. But our workload really *really* dropped and even the few hours of work we put in each week was sufficient to accomplish what we needed to. It was a separate office from the larger company headquarters – in a different city – 300 miles away so there was no chance of an unexpected visit. They said “don’t work on any new features just keep the web site up” and that is what we did so even if they had stopped by I think we’d have been fine. (And what would they have done otherwise? Fired us?)

      Is there a reason you couldn’t work on your job search?

      1. The Other Dawn*

        I’ve been looking each morning, but there’s really nothing turning up that would be a fit for me or that really interests me. Things don’t typically move that slowly in banking. My team members are finding positions to apply to, though, and a couple have been on several interviews.

  161. Reviewing Resumes today...*

    So, one person had a nice cover letter, but the resume had no duties/accomplishments/descriptions, just job titles and places of employment.
    Another one had the exact same description for all three jobs in different cites/states. Slightly different title, but copied and pasted the same thing under each one.
    And another, that had random bold/underline/run on nonsense that declared he saw the job posting for…and is sending in the material
    Yes…job posting for “…”

    1. CAA*

      I feel your pain. I bet they all have some statement about being great at communications too. I always want to say “dude, the fact that your resume doesn’t tell me what I need to know means you are not great at communicating.”

  162. Junior Dev*

    I got a new job! I’m transferring to a new department at my company where I’ll be doing more technical work, with people I know and like. And I get to escape my horrible boss. Yay!

    4. LGC*

      Congrats! Wishing you the best – I’ve seen a lot of your posts, and it sounded like your old department was terrible. I hope this one is a much better fit – it certainly sounds like it will be!

  163. Scarlet*

    Tips on how to deal with having to play phone tag with recruiters?

    Long story short: They call. I miss the call. Call back. Nobody answers the phone. I shoot them a quick e-mail, “Sorry I couldn’t answer your call, I was (in a workshop/in a meeting/out for lunch/fighting off a dragon/too fricking drunk to take your call since it was 10pm on a Friday night – no joke, they have called me at 10pm on a Friday night) but I’m available now whenever you are.” e-mail doesn’t get answered. Don’t hear from them again for two weeks until the same thing happens AGAIN. Rinse, repeat.

    I’ve scored one interview with them and it’s taken two months. Now I seem to be on ignore again. They called me three days ago, I called back, sent a polite e-mail apologizing for missing their call, no response. Is this NORMAL nowadays? Am I overreacting? I get missing their calls isn’t cool but sometimes I can’t help it as I 1) still have a job I have to perform at and 2) therefore am not glued to my phone all day long. Like, I’M SORRY I MISSED YOUR CALL, PLEASE FORGIVE ME AND CALL ME BACK??

    Am I the wrong one in this?

    1. Lil Fidget*

      Ugh I feel like everything on the phone is in such a terrible place right now, because we all get SO MANY spam callers on private cell numbers that everybody I know has stopped answering the phone. If it doesn’t go to VM, I just assume it was some spoofer in Nebraska. That worked fine until I started a mortgage and now I may actually get random calls from unrecognized numbers that are very important! So I’m in the same boat and I feel you.

    2. Asenath*

      No solution to offer – just fellow-feeling. I had to actually turn on the sound for my cell phone and keep it by me for a day when I saw a “missed call” from “private number” at a medical facility – no call-back number, no message. When I was expecting another call from another department of the same place, they told me in advance that if my message manager identified me by name, they’d leave a call-back number. That worked. Obviously, the current department operates on different call-back standards entirely – the phone has to be answered personally, and they call during working hours, didn’t/wouldn’t call my work number, and I don’t normally answer my cell phone (or, obviously, my home landline) during business hours.

      You aren’t in the wrong, and are doing what you can. They have terrible phone manners.

  164. Jenna Maroney*

    My manager is sticking me with a serious problem trainee again to hide her. They’re hoping they can postpone her firing until the contract is renewed (it won’t be, but they’re incompetent and don’t realize this). I’m really angry about this, because I know exactly what she’s doing. I’ll basically be by myself all of next week this woman is so useless. How do I explain to my manager “I know exactly what you’re doing and it’s a TERRIBLE idea”?

    1. valentine*

      Are you not going to have a job or are you losing a client? When the contract isn’t renewed, is your manager likely to fire this person? I don’t understand what hiding her does for your manager, but can you give the trainee low-stakes stuff or reading material? Just tell her to do whatever on her own (assuming the client won’t see this)? Only confront your fantasizing manager if you think she’ll change her mind.

  165. LibraryStuntwoman*

    I’m late to the open thread and this might get buried, but I wondered if anyone had any advice about communicating with an unresponsive professor. I’m a full time professional going back to school part time to update my credentials. I’ve been having a tough time in an online class this week and I have been trying to get in touch with my professor since Wednesday. I can see that he’s posted in the class forum and other people are referencing his emails to them, but he’s ignored my initial email and my follow up attempts. I feel, well, too old to be playing this kind of game especially when my company is footing the bill for these classes. Does anyone have any advice about what I should do next? To be clear, I think the professor has been very good overall and I don’t want to be anything less than respectful and professional.

    1. An academic advisor*

      If there’s a messaging feature built in to the online course platform, I would try sending a message through that just in case your emails have been ending up in a spam folder. Also, if you have a university-issued email address, make sure to use that one instead of your personal email.

      If the issue continues and you don’t have any other contact information for the professor, I would reach out to the departmental office.

    3. AnotherLibrarian*

      I would second the advice given above. Also, can you call? Is there a departmental office? That might also be an option.

    4. The Ginger Ginger*

      Can you post to the forum to confirm that he’s seeing your emails (if you’re not using a university address) and it’s not getting caught in the spam filter? I’d also call during his office hours. You may have to leave a voicemail, but it’s more likely he’ll be reachable when he’s supposed to be in his office. You can ask your question, but also confirm that email is his preferred method of contact/he’s getting your emails.

  166. TechWorker*

    Hey! I’m looking for advice on how to turn off your brain outside of work. My team is under resourced and I’m not coping with the stress well. Realistically I know that actually our part of the project is going well compared to the rest of them and I just need to push back on unrealistic deadlines or expectations, but at the moment the amount of work we have vs the people to do it is (literally) keeping me up at night. Help!

    1. greentea*

      I understand this and feel for you (I’m also a tech worker on an understaffed team.) I tend to fixate on problems because I don’t like not knowing what’s going to happen.

      But also, in general, this is just how our animal brains work. I’m paraphrasing this from mindfulness-based psychology theory (probably not well), but our brains worked to keep our early ancestors safe from mortal danger by always Figuring Stuff Out. For the most part, we aren’t running from tigers and wolves in our daily lives like our early ancestors did, but our brains will still fixate on whatever problems we’re having.

      Long-term, there are many tools you learn and use to help with this. For me, mindfulness-based tools like meditation classes, meditation videos on YouTube, and books about this subject have been a big help. At night, there is a short “body scan” meditation I do while in bed (which I found on YouTube). My husband and I have used it while traveling overseas to help with insomnia from jet lag, too. For me, mindfulness means I’ve learned (over many years) to be better at telling myself “I’m ok right now” and to focus on what is in front of my eyes and not in my head.

      Dr. Rick Hanson is a great online resource for the neurscience behind mindfulness. I susbscribe to his email newsletter of tips called Just One Thing. One other resource that’s helped me so much is the book “Things Might Go Terribly, Horribly Wrong.”

      Short-term, there are also many things you can do. For me, physical activity outside of my home is huge. It’s really hard to think about work when you’re doing something physical that requires all your attention so you don’t trip and land on your face. It also releases good chemicals in your body vs. the stress hormones that stress releases into your body.

      Over time, if you pratice and keep at it, you just get better at leaving the office at the office. Sometimes, I picture physically doing that. For example, when I get home and start obsessioning over work stuff, I will picture putting down my problems on my desk as if they were physical objects, and walking away for the night or weekend. I can’t think about my work problems at home because those objects are on my desk at work and I can’t get to them until the next time I’m there.

      Good luck!

      1. TechWorker*

        Thank you greentea! I think I’ve coped fine for the first x years but now stuff is *actually my responsibility* it’s difficult. I’ll try your recommendations :)

    2. Anonymeece*

      I found that I tend to do better with “active” relaxation, rather than passive. So instead of soaking in a bath or meditating – which is great for some, not so for me! – I go for a walk or paint watercolors or play guitar. Creating stuff is beneficial and helps me to regain my center, unlike just zoning in front of a TV.

      Also, take time to relax during work. While deadlines looming can make it seem like you have to work non-stop, taking a 10 minute tea break or chatting with some coworkers for a bit can actually boost productivity. If nothing else, take time to stretch and take a short walk around the office every other hour. It helps for when you get home so you’re already a little more relaxed, not a giant ball of stress.

      Good luck.

    3. BRR*

      Something I’ve tried recently is just start thinking about something else. My goal is to break my hyperfocus on the stressful parts of work. It doesn’t take much but I have a couple of things that I can obsess about in my head that arentnwork.

    4. Kathenus*

      Reading has always been an outlet for me, generally fiction novels, especially certain authors with series that involve reoccurring characters. I can get lost in the literary world and shut off my outside brain, for a while at least.

  167. Asariel*

    So I’ve been casually applying to jobs and am trying to decide my asking price. The trick is that I’m currently in a full time work from home gig. Its great… no commute (and this city is legendary for its traffic), I role out of bed at 9 and work in my bathrobe, if I get a migraine I can use my lunch time to lay in bed, etc. How in the world do I put a price on that?

    I know the going rate for my field is roughly $160-180k, and right now I’m making $130k with so-so benefits. I’m happy with my daily life quality, but is it really worth $50k? That’s money I could be using to put in a retirement fund (I started my career later in life so am far behind where I should be in that regard). I know it’s a very personal judgement because of how everyone values things differently… but what would you do?

    1. Book Badger*

      I wouldn’t price yourself less than the going rate! Certainly you’ve made trade-offs for the job you have now, but don’t shortchange yourself. You can always negotiate less pay for more benefits at new!job if you want, but as an asking price, I don’t think it’s out of the question to at least start at market rate, especially if you’re giving up your current lifestyle for it.

    2. Yay commenting on AAM!*

      For your own reference, you should estimate how much money you’re saving with the work from home gig vs. going into an office. Gas/parking, lost time, train passes, lunch, flexibility vs. using a sick day, etc.

      You make less at your current job, but your total compensation package in expense-savings might be higher than $130,000.

    3. CatCat*

      I’d keep applying to the higher paying jobs and ask about telecommuting options. I’d try to get that in a phone screen since you know it’s a big quality of life issue for you and what gives you the most serious pause in leaving your current position. You might not get full-time telecommute, but I’d be surprised if there wasn’t some flexibility in this arena in a place with legendary traffic.

    4. Kathenus*

      I think as you mentioned there are so many personal aspects to this. I’ve chosen a career in a low-paying field. I could make a great deal more in another field, but I wouldn’t be as happy. I’ve made that decision and trade-off with eyes wide open to the financial consequences. I don’t see choosing a situation within the same career that’s lower paying for other benefits as any different than my decision to pursue a career that pays less. Long-winded way of saying that you need to decide what parts of this are most important to you and your life – more money into retirement, work from home, etc., then use that information to inform your decision.

    5. designbot*

      If I was happy with other aspects of the job, I’d probably stick with it TBH. So you’re thinking of it as a $50k difference but that assumes the top end, it might only be $20k. Then how much would you spend on gas? car maintenance? office clothes? on hiring out tasks at home because you didn’t have time to do them?
      My bet is that the lifestyle you currently enjoy is worth $20k. At least it would be to me if like you I were already in a very high income bracket. It wouldn’t be worth $20k if that was the difference between $30k and $50k, but at the level you’re at it would be worth it to me.
      On the other hand if you’re unhappy with other things about it and looking to move on anyway, then try to get top dollar when you make that move to make it fully worthwhile.

    6. ..Kat..*

      No commute in a horrible commute city and the ability to lie down when you have a migraine ar pretty fantastic. How long would your commute be? Would the commute increase your migraines? Exactly how much would you pay a year for parking and gas?

  168. Book Badger*

    I’m late to the thread, but: I just had three job interviews in a week! Whooo! And I’ve got more jobs to apply to!

    I’m somewhat worried about the job I just interviewed for today: they say they’ll get back to me within a week (for those who’ve been following along, this is the same company that ghosted me – they’ve treated me a lot better the second time around!) to tell me if I got the job. But the pay is crappy ($30/hr , 25 hr/wk) and the area is swanky, so I might not be able to afford to live there, at least not on that salary.

    On the other hand, waiting for another job is seriously hurting my continued prospects – the longer I go without a job post-grad, the worse I look. I’m scared of turning down a job that might lead to better stuff in the future. So if I find out I got the job in a week (I don’t flatter myself to think that I’m definitely going to get it)… should I turn it down? Try to negotiate higher if I possibly can? Take the bird in hand and suck it up?

    1. Psyche*

      Look into the cost of living in areas within commuting distance. You may find somewhere that makes the job workable. Are all the jobs you applied to part time? It sounds like the hours are what makes it unworkable. Would a second part time job be an option?

      If the hours/salary make this job not feasible for you, then you should turn it down. If you aren’t making enough to support yourself you won’t be able to stay in the position long. A part time job for a short amount of time likely won’t help your resume.

      1. Book Badger*

        All the other jobs I’ve applied to are full-time, but all will take longer to find out if I get the job or not – this one I’ll find out in a week either way (allegedly). I’ll also be able to keep applying to more jobs, so it’s not that it’s the total end of the road if I turn this one down – I just worry about it. Thank you for your advice!

    2. CAA*

      Did they advertise it as part-time? And did they discuss your intentions for working full- vs part-time during the interview?

      One of the risks when you are the manager for a part-time position is that you will hire someone who really wanted a full-time job and just took your part-time job as a stop gap until they could find something better, and then they quit and you have to start the hiring process all over again. Good hiring managers will try to do their due diligence and make sure they are hiring someone who really wants to be a part-time employee. If the hiring manager asked those questions and you misled her into believing that you really wanted a part-time job only to quit soon after starting because you got a full-time job offer, then you’d be burning that bridge, which could come back to hurt you if you run into her again somewhere else down the line. On the other hand, if you were transparent that this position isn’t exactly what you wanted, and you are continuing to look for something that is a better fit, and she hires you anyway, then it’s on her to deal with the fallout when you leave.

      1. Book Badger*

        Just for clarity: that it was part-time was advertised; the pay was not. And they discussed why the job was part-time instead of full-time. Their reasoning:
        * They need to hire someone with legal training, since someone who doesn’t have that training won’t know how to do the work (they’ve tried hiring paralegals, etc. and it doesn’t work).
        * The work is very sloggy – it’s time-consuming and uncreative. It’s perfect for someone with no experience (like me) and frees up the real lawyers to do the hard bits.
        * However, the fact that the person hired will have no experience means that part of the real lawyers’ time will be taken up by checking the work and supervising, and they’ve determined that it’s easier to simply hire part-time so that only half the workday is taken up by supervising.

        We talked about whether I could commit to at least six months if I was hired (I could, and anyway, who wants a job that’s only two months or whatever on their resume?), but I also made it clear that this was a stepping stone for me and they were on board with that. I am willing to do the sloggy work and I totally understand their reasoning for it being set up that way, I’m just concerned that I won’t be able to pay back my student loans.

        I should say, $30/hr full time is high end for an entry-level lawyer in my particular area; $30/hr part time is less than what I’d make full-time working somewhere else for lower hourly wages, and that’s not counting the fact that it is in Swanksville, suburb of Swankopolis, where a dollar doesn’t stretch as far.

  169. Laura H.*

    I’m leaving my current location of employment in a little over a month to work at a location closer to my house. I’d like to write thank you notes to my current coworkers and put em in their lockers on my last day. (Managers and midlevel management included- it’s retail and about 20 of us including me)

    I’d love to include the seasonal employees as well, but I might just put a catch all thank you for the new ones and give my ones for those returning to my managers to give to them. (The returning ones start the same day that I start at my new location.- so I wont see them but they’ve been my coworkers for three holiday seasons and I want to be sure I thank them too.)

    I’ve done these notes for every departing employee I’ve known about, so it’s not a new thing for me in practice.

  170. reassurance.pls*

    My question comes to you as someone who struggled a lot with both my mental and physical health in college (and beyond) and subsequently, didn’t graduate with a degree and struggles to live comfortably as a single adult with no kids but plenty of (fed and private) student loan debt.

    When I dropped out of college, I had a part time home health job that became full time with benefits that I loved. I worked it for nearly 10 years until certain aspects became untenable; mainly, I went from having a predictable schedule to a chaotic one, I kept getting sent to cases out of my city, and they added a mandatory on-call component when previously there wasn’t even a similar voluntary component. Additionally, there was no upward mobility without literally getting an LPN/RN degree.

    Thankfully, as things started getting bad, I had already started transitioning to an unrelated job at a call center. Pay seemed similar, company culture is actually fantastic, management is loads more supportive and clear about expectations, and if customers yell at me? They generally hang up and I never speak to them again, which is a luxury compared to having to spend the next 8+ hours in their homes taking care of them before calling scheduling and begging to be put on other cases. I miss caring for my regular clients, but the 40 hours a week I work at the call center are way less stressful than my last job and I’m still helping people. Four more months on the floor and they will pay my tuition so I can finish my degree and I can get a job making 10k more than I do now.

    But I wouldn’t be writing if there wasn’t a problem. Even with a shift differential, my take home pay is 200-400$ less a month and there’s almost never an option for overtime. The “early” start time of my second shift means I’m chronically sleep deprived (thanks dsps) and there’s not an option to start later; most of the jobs with upward mobility would mean an even earlier start time. The daily commute that I thought I could handle feels like it drains all the time from my day. The amount of PTO given is pitiful and even though they are generally flexible in letting people go home early without pay if requested, I literally can’t pay my bills if I keep bringing home 400$ less a month. I picked the health insurance plan that takes the most out of my paycheck due to my health issues, but I’ve never had a health plan cover so little (even self-insured pre-Obamacare!) and my health issues? They’re flaring, so I’m dropping 100$ every month or two on doctor visits then I ended up in the ER with an 800$ bill I don’t know what to do with. The work is easy, I get amazing weekly call reviews and monthly behavior reviews, and I have supervisors and managers who give me everything I need to do the work, but everything job-adjacent is stressing me the hell out; I’m so stressed out and tired that I can’t even imagine how taking a year or two of college classes while doing this job would even work.

    There’s a job opening at a nearby hospital for a job similar to home care but in the hospital setting. Given what a friend makes there, I’d still probably be taking home 200$ less than my home health job, but I’d have a stable schedule and job location with a 10-15 min commute, coworkers to talk with and managers who could actually give me feedback on my work, healthcare benefits more on par with what I’m used to (and desperately need), I’d be spending less per month on Dr visits and meds, and be back to earning and using PTO the way I’m used to. It might be more stressful, but my heart would be more in it, so that probably balances out. It’d be three 12 hr thirds, which I desperately miss in terms of my body’s preferred sleep schedule and also being able to do things with people. The main negatives are a lack upward mobility and probably not finishing my education (though, realistically, with 3-4 days off a week, I could probably take classes for pharm tech or medical coding after I save up some money).

    I did apply for the hospital position yesterday, but I’m struggling with knowing if I’m making the right call. It’s hard to have a job be so perfect in most respects but to have all the job-adjacent bits picking away is really upsetting, I guess and I’m looking for some reassurance.

    (Normally I would feel horrifically guilty about leaving a job so quickly, but 1) it’s a call center and 2) recently, the mentor from my training class said the stated goal is to retain 50% of each training class by the end of 6 months…and I’ve stayed 8, so I’ve already beaten the odds??? idk, keeps me from falling into the guilt pit tho.)

    1. Temperance*

      I wouldn’t think twice about leaving a call center job. Apply to the hospital, and if you get it, take it.

      What do you actually want to do? I wouldn’t recommend medical coding to anyone, just because so many of those jobs shifted overseas in the past 10-15 years.

      1. reassurance.pls*

        I have no clue. Part of the problem is I didn’t expect to make it alive out of high school and then, I didn’t expect to make it alive out of 20’s, so here I am in my mid-30’s with no real sense of direction other than “shit, I probably need to 1) make more and 2) pay more than the minimum into retirement even if I can’t picture myself living that long.”

        I’d probably make a decent admin assistant (from my light duty stint + call center), but none of them in my (decent sized) city are second or third, hence falling back on medical stuff (in general, tho coding seems similar and there’s 2 big hospital systems in my area that do hire dedicated coders). I’ve also considered actual computer/IT coding as well since I’m good with computers, I self-taught myself some basic debugging in college, I still understand a good chunk of what my coding family members are talking about when they discuss their jobs, etc, but the boys club aspect and trying to figure out the best way to get in (boot camp vs actual degree) is kind of daunting. But ultimately, rn it’s just….whatever’s gonna give me actual good health care and pay more than 13$ an hour (with hopefully shift differential to bring it up closer to 15$).

    2. Gumby*

      You applied for the position – it wasn’t a contractual agreement to take it if they offered it. So I don’t think it is a bad call at all. You are keeping your options open.

      One thing to consider is that if you get the hospital job, you will have more concentrated blocks of free time that you might be able to use to make up some of the income difference. I know you don’t want to get back into a full time home health care thing – but is it something you could do on an extremely part-time basis? One day a week? Or just working for one client rather than an agency? (I have a friend who is paralyzed and she hires several different people to provide various kinds of assistance and usually in shorter blocks of time. But she hires them directly, not through an agency.)

      Where I live there are also people who advertise low or free rent for people willing to help out around the house for (mostly) elderly people. Those can turn into really horrible situations if there are not clear boundaries and expectations set up at the start, but I know 2 people who have done it and had great experiences.

      1. reassurance.pls*

        Well, part of trying to get the hospital job is hoping that I can either pick up an extra 12 hr shift per paycheck (ime, overtime is almost always available for these types of positions) or pick up a low stress part time side gig to try to recoup some funds. Since the hospital job is so similar to home care, I probably wouldn’t do home care as the part time gig.

        Thankfully, my living situation is already pretty ideal and the smallest worry as far as bills go; I live with friends where I pay a flat fee that is below market rate for rent in my area and that includes all utilities. Also, having worked with people who previously came from those types of live-in health care work situations and my sister being the weekend/vacation fill in for one….I’ve never seen those be healthy situations for anyone involved.

    3. chi chan*

      Is there any way you can set up some passive income? Get a housemate to cut down on rent or bills. Or if you have a room you can put up on Airbnb. If you are near hospitals some people come from far away for specialized care and will be glad to be close to the hospital. If your city is generally popular with tourists that will also be a plus point.

      1. reassurance.pls*

        Kinda mentioned above, but I live with and rent from friends who own the house. Even if we had an extra room/were up for doing Airbnb, the money would not be going to me and my living situation already affords me a lot of wiggle room with my debts since it’s a flat rate under market value, especially considering it includes all utilities.

  171. Anonny*

    Hi! I’m in a situation with my managers. From my perspective, they’re both bullies; the younger is the protege of the older, and is usually less aggressive when the older is out. Does anyone have any advice on how I can tell if I’m just overreacting? It’s hard to tell the difference between not fitting in and actively being targeted. My only point of perspective is that other managers in the department aren’t happy with them and their behaviour towards me – or towards the other members of the department -either, but that might just be office politics.

    1. CatCat*

      I think you should trust your gut, especially if you have info from the other managers that they aren’t happy with your managers’ behaviors. If you’re looking for more outside perspectives, you’re going to have to share details on what those behaviors are.

      In some ways, it does’t matter though because regardless of whether there’s a “difference between not fitting in and actively being targeted,” you’re in a sucky situation either way. Sorry you’re dealing with this.

      1. Anonny*

        Thank ou for replying to me – I don’t really want an outside opinion, because I know it’s easy to paint myself as a poor little victim when you can only hear one side of the story. But you’re right that I should trust myself, and doubly right that regardless of what is happening, I’m in a situation that I need to deal with.

    2. Gatomon*

      One of the most insidious things about office bullies is how they make you question what you are experiencing and destroy your sanity and self worth in the process. My managers were careful to bully me in such a way that their decisions always seemed plausible, reasonable or sensible on the surface. HR was on a planet far-far away and had no interest in dealing with the horrid, well-known issues in our branch office, so there was no recourse for me but to quit. (Our manager had been sued multiple times by former employees for sex discrimination/sexual harassment. He was investigated for discriminating against an employee with a disability while I was there and I was one of several witnesses, but HR never contacted any of us and simply closed the case.)

      I’m adding a link to an article I found really helpful to understanding what was happening to me:
      https://www.yourerc.com/blog/post/20-Subtle-Signs-of-Workplace-Bullying.aspx

      If others are noticing the bullies behavior is out of line, then that’s a really good sign you are not overreacting. Usually bullies try to either get the rest of the team on board with the bullying, or make it subtle enough that no one notices/can pin it down. If it’s escalated to that point I would consider what your options are (transferring, quitting, HR if they are any good).

      1. Anonny*

        Thank you so much for replying, and for linking the article – it was a really helpful read. It’s awful what happened to you; things aren’t quite that bad for me, but you’re right that they’re making me doubt my memory and sanity, and I’ve lost a lot of confidence. I’m definitely considering my options; I just don’t want to regret leaving if I’m just misinterpreting.

  173. atexit8*

    I recently interviewed on-site for a job.
    Then after that interview I had two separate telephone interviews because they either weren’t there the day I interviewed or were not asked to interview me.
    Then the day after that I receive an email request asking for 2 or 3 references.

    For someone with over 30 years of work experience, is it still normal for references to be called?

    1. Rey*

      I think it is normal to call references for any applicant, regardless of age (which is what decades of work experience usually translates to), because they’re building a total picture of you as an applicant.

    2. Kathenus*

      In my experience, yes. I check references more to try to determine fit than to check qualifications. I always check references for a finalist, regardless of their experience level.

    3. CAA*

      It’s absolutely normal to be asked for references, no matter how much experience you have. It would be a red flag if any candidate I wanted to hire couldn’t think of someone who would say nice things about their past work. I call two or three references for everyone I hire.

    4. Psyche*

      Yes. Just because you have a lot of experience does not mean that they won’t want to talk to people who have worked with you. There are many people who have worked for 20-30 years and are either not great workers or have behavior problems that make them difficult to work with. I don’t think there is ever a point where reference checks become irrelevant. However, it should be easier for someone more experienced because you have many more people to choose from.

  174. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

    I’ve scheduled a meeting with my boss for next week to talk salary. I’ve been preparing myself using Alison’s great tips and the various letters and articles here on asking for a raise. I don’t have incredibly high hopes, but my morale has hit rock-bottom since a surprise change in benefits means I basically can’t afford to see a doctor anymore, and I need to try this. On top of my second being sent off to cover other departments again the past two weeks while saddling me with triple my usual workload AND a major project due next week that I haven’t even gotten to look at yet.

    I’ve been job-searching, but the results so far are kind of bleak. My current job is basically customized for this specific job, and the translatable bits tend to be only accepted at various entry-level positions (and much lower salary than current).

    Fingers crossed my meeting goes well.

    1. atexit8*

      I hope you get it, but sometimes, enough is enough.

      If you are exempt, I would not work more than 40 hours.

  175. Manu*

    How do you guys feel about a Christmas tree up in an office? We are a 40-person, diverse office in San Francisco. Tree would have lights but no ornaments, definitely nothing religious. We had one last year, and I (a Jew, if it matters) viewed it as non-religious, but I don’t want to inadvertently offend anyone. At this point I consider Christmas a secular American holiday, but obviously it has a specific religious root. Better to just skip it?

    1. CatCat*

      Is this in your office or in a shared space?

      In your office, I think it’s fine. In a shared space, it’s hard to know if 40 people are on board, or if some would find it offensive. I liked what one office that I once visited did. They constructed a fireplace with a mantel (the “fire” was construction paper and tissue), and then people were invited to bring in a decoration meaningful to them to be placed on the mantel, hung on the mantel, or placed around the fireplace. I thought that was quite nice.

    2. Anon Anon Anon*

      It would be great if you could do an anonymous poll – a few multiple choice questions and a box for optional comments. I bet most people don’t care one way or the other, but some people might.

      FWIW, I’m not religious, but I enjoy Christmas trees because they’re trees, and they smell good. And the roots (pun intended!) are multi-religious when you think about it. The tree comes from a European pagan tradition. It was not originally part of Christianity. And, to be very literal, the holiday is about a time before Christianity – everyone in the story was Jewish. I don’t know if that’s a weird thing to say, but, basically, it’s a pagan symbol being used to celebrate a birth in a Jewish family because the baby later founded another religion. But I know people see it different ways.

      1. Grinch*

        “I don’t know if that’s a weird thing to say, but, basically, it’s a pagan symbol being used to celebrate a birth in a Jewish family because the baby later founded another religion. But I know people see it different ways.”
        This is how I see it too

    3. neverjaunty*

      We are a 40-person, diverse office in San Francisco.

      Yes, better to just skip it. You’re not in a place where you can count on prevailing social pressure of the thought of being seen as Hostile to Jesus to get people to pretend that your tree is just a secular thing.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Actually “Christmas” trees are non-religious items. They pre-date the Christian holiday they’re associated with. You can be ok with the seasonal Yule representation of nature and the Solstice.

    5. Gatomon*

      Ask 40 people and you’ll get 40 different answers, I suspect. :) If it’s an office tradition, people might wonder why there is no tree this year, which might open a can of strong feelings, depending on your group. My suggestion is to just ask around the office and see what people think.

      Where I am at is not diverse and predominantly Christian, so it’s normal to see Christmas decorations and trees in the office, around town, etc. Our office has numerous high-quality fake trees they trot out and decorate for the season. I can imagine an outcry from a few people if that suddenly stopped. I don’t see it as a big deal myself, and I’m an atheist. A tree doesn’t offend me any more than any other religious symbol (which is not at all). As long as you’re not covering it in crosses and ornaments with Jesus’ face on them or forcing people to participate in decorating/express warm fuzzies for the Christian god I think you’ll be okay for most people’s comfort levels.

    6. valentine*

      Christmas trees are religious. Christmas is a religious holiday. Just like using the term Turkey Day for the National Day of Mourning and celebrating it as family time doesn’t stop it being based on genocide.

  176. Anon for this*

    This might get me some heat, but I wanted to ask about it. I’m a married, childfree woman, if that matters

    I work with three men in their 40s who all have young kids at home. Lately, their wives have been bugging them at work every hour, it seems. The calls/texts are a mix of random check-ins, asking them to get milk or whatever on the way home, and other stuff about the kids that seems like it could wait.

    Is this normal behavior? I can’t help but roll my eyes and think, “Let him work!”

    1. CatCat*

      I’m a married woman, childfree most of the year (except when step-kiddo visits). Seems normal to me, but that’s because my husband does this to me all the time since he’s mostly at home (variable part-time job). And I admit, sometimes *I* can’t help but roll my eyes and think, “Let me work!” I admit I ignore or silence the texts a lot.

    2. designbot*

      I find that people have a really wide range of habits about this. Some people keep gchat open all day and are in constant contact with their partners. Some people only take a call if it’s an emergency. And of course, everything in between.
      As a manager, what I’ve asked my one employee that’s had a bit of a distraction problem is to make sure he’s attending to his work first. Like, it’s fine to chat or text as long as he’s handling his stuff, but if I ask something related to an email that came through, and he tells me he hasn’t read it yet, he had better not be texting.

      1. valentine*

        Constant contact is creepy. In my family, work was sacred and we called less than once a month to say things that couldn’t wait. Anon for this, tell your colleagues to silence their phones and return the calls elsewhere.

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      It’s at least equally the fault of your coworkers. They can keep their phones on silent and periodically check texts/VMs on break. Maybe slightly more often if there’s actually an issue (sick kid) and less if they only anticipate (get milk hon!) routine messages.

    4. Psyche*

      Some of it is normal. I do think calls in the middle of the day are disruptive and should be very important. A call after 5 to check in doesn’t sound bad if they are working late. Texts however do not require an immediate response. I text my SO during the day sometimes to remind them that they need to pick something up or run an errand. I don’t know what time he is going to leave and I don’t want to forget.

  177. Mortified*

    a Potential Employer “outed” my search to my Current Employer! what do I do now?
    I am in consulting. Multiple levels in my (large corporation) company found out I was in talks to go to a client-side job. While this is a very normal thing to happen, usually it’s all very hush hush and you never know someone’s looking or left until it has happened. in this case, the Potential Employer jumped the gun and informed my employer – largely because they wanted to clear themselves of liability for “soliciting” me (which they didn’t do, to begin with). I will continue searching but what steps can I take to recover and repair relationships? the COO, the Head of HR, my department head (who is also my boss), various other senior leaders in my department have heard about it. Again it’s not unusual but it IS unusual that people will have heard about it. and regardless, people love to talk. I have never shown even a HINT of disloyalty or “having one foot out the door” before.

    I had a convo with one of the rising senior leaders in my department to sort of clear the air and “kiss the ring” and it was so uncomfortable, she really wanted very specific and enthusiastic verbal commitment of enthusiasm and “commitment to the vision.” do I have to do keep doing that? how do I do it with people who MAY have just heard gossip? if they havne’t heard I don’t want to be the one to spread the gossip either! the holiday party is coming up in mid-December and I am mortified to go but think I have to!

    To be clear I work remotely full-time so I don’t have a “drop some gossip around the watercooler” kind of thing available to do.

    1. Mortified*

      also to be clear I did receive an offer from Potential Employer but we couldn’t come to agreement on compensation so I had to decline it. Potential Employer informed my company before they had even made me an offer.

      1. atexit8*

        I wouldn’t give a fig what they thought!

        That’s me now.

        That’s where Living Below Your Means gets me; the IDGAF attitude.

        Why are you “mortified”? It isn’t a sin to look for another job!

  178. Jennifer*

    So it’s my beloved boss’s last day today. Sadness. We had a good party and a good talk and some hugs and photos. I hope I keep hearing from him after he moves since he is the sort of person I would be friends with and we’re agreed on that.

    Am very freaked out about my future here now that’s gonna be gone, though. Next week I am back on public service again, god help me.

  179. Anon Anon Anon*

    So, I’m on hiatus from the office world. I’ve been gone so long, a return is looking less likely. I do various creative things plus some teaching. I was driving for a food delivery company for a while, but then my car died. It wasn’t the greatest way to earn a living. It was relaxing and often fun, but it was also a lot of work for less than minimum wage, especially when you consider the expenses. So now I’m doing the Big River thing. And I’m actually doing better and paying off some bills. So that’s good. And it’s giving me some ideas for new career directions (and ones to avoid!) because you can sample a variety of tasks and see what you’re good at. So, as much as I’m critical of it for the reasons most people would be, it’s a positive thing right now. I’m hoping I can find other stuff I can do online to make money, diversify my sources of income and work towards something more stable.

    Life is pretty good, but it’s definitely a time of transition. I’m hopeful that things will go in a good direction and that I’ll find work doing things that I enjoy and do well.

  180. Spinetingler*

    I was dinged on my annual work evaluation for “keeps to himself.” Surely that’s not legit.

    1. Darren*

      It definitely could be a legitimate thing. But they have definitely worded in badly.
      As a legitimate thing it would be something like:
      * Doesn’t really work well in a team
      * Doesn’t keep stakeholders up to date
      * Doesn’t attempt to build consensus or consult experts before working on a project which has had substandard results.

      But all of those really needed to be worded much more clearly for you to know which (if any) of those is actually the problem so you can work out how to deal with it.

      Additionally as you move up in level at a company (not necessarily as a manager this happens to high level individual contributors as well) the higher-ups merely not being able to recall anything about you during calibration would likely result in such a comment and your rating being docked because you are expected at that level to be an influencer at the company and to have one or more areas of expertise that you are known for that people go to you for help with.

    2. WellRed*

      Sure it’s a thing. We have a coworker whi works a slightly different schedule. She’s very friendly ans well liked but it has not gone unnoticed that she doesn’t participate in ANYTHING, and we only have a few things a year. Example:longtime employee retired, company hosted a lunch at nearby nice restaurant. Coworker only one who didn’t attend and she’s very friendly with the retiree!

      1. valentine*

        Why is it wrong or bad? Why can’t we have some flipping peace when we don’t have privacy for the entirety of the work day? I don’t want to surrender my recharging time to people I only know because the same place hired us. I keep myself to myself. I like to work well with people without getting personal in the least.

        1. Marshal P*

          Could be bad for several reasons. People don’t feel comfortable with you. People feel you are difficult to work with. You are perceived as unapproachable or aloof and that’s at odds with the company culture. You aren’t seen as a team player. You come across as rude or arrogant. And so on. It’s hard to know based on so little info.

          What you do know is that your management have flagged this as a concern, and so you really need to reflect on it, figure out what they mean, and take steps to address it. This is the sort of thing that impacts references, promotion opportunities, development opportunities and more.

          I’m an extreme introvert who hates socialising with colleagues, small talk and all that stuff, but I’ve learned how to fake it enough for work. You can do it too.

        2. WellRed*

          If you work someplace for say 2 years without ever becoming marginally friendly in a workplace where folks are at least collegial, you will look out of step and a bit rude. As to your time, we are talking, in my case, a total of a few hours a year. It’s possible, I suppose, to work at places where no one ever speaks or exchanges basic pleasantries. *shudder*

  181. Anon anony*

    Can I apply for a position that states that it is dedicated to hiring those in “historically underrepresented groups” even though I am not part of that group?

    2. Darren*

      You are indeed allowed to apply for such positions, and like with any other position you cannot be discriminated against during the hiring process based on any protected characteristic (which includes several of those underrepresented groups) the same as for any other position.

      The line in a job ad is subject of a lot of debate, the line itself is fine (along with a number of variation such as welcome applications from specific groups and so on) but the actual execution during the hiring process has to be completely fair otherwise it has the potential to land the organisation in some rather dicey legal situations.

      The intention behind it is definitely laudable (trying to get better diversity at the company), whether it’s a good method to do so I have no idea.

  182. IT Manager*

    I’m running into problems with managing a team where some have work at home days. One person has a schedule where he works at home on Tuesday and Friday. Another works at home on Wednesday afternoons. I work at home on Friday.

    My problem is that recently people have been switching their work at home days depending on whether they want to get a free lunch at the office or they have a meeting they have to be in the office. It’s becoming an issue trying to schedule coverage in the office (we’re IT.) My thoughts have always been that if something comes up and I need to be in the office , I’m just not going to have a work at home day that week.

    Am I making too big a deal about this?

    1. BRR*

      It doesn’t sound like you’re making too big a deal. Your department needs to have coverage and if people are switching then that makes it more difficult. People are probabaly just going to either miss out on things like a free lunch or miss a work from home day.

    2. Gatomon*

      No, you’re not making too big a deal of it. You set scheduled WFH days for a reason, right? It’s a perk, not a right. If there’s an occasional meeting that comes up that they must come in for, so be it. If it’s a reoccurring meeting (maybe for a project) that conflicts with someone’s WFH day, I could see temporarily shifting things to accommodate that and preserve the perk for them, but that needs to be planned out in advance to ensure the schedule is well covered. Free food is definitely not an excuse.

    3. Kathenus*

      May be too late to reply, but if the main issue is having coverage in the office, can that be scheduled out specifically for each week/month. Then everyone not on that day’s schedule can have some flexibility of office or WFH, with appropriate notifications as needed, but if you are scheduled in the office that day you must be there?

      1. IT Manager*

        Kathernus,
        Thanks, I can always make things work with time. It’s just that I’m hearing on Monday that someone’s switching their Tuesday to Wednesday. I’m trying to be careful that this isn’t about me and control. At the same time, most of my team is on the newer side to the workforce and I want to make sure that we aren’t instilling some bad habits.

        1. Kathenus*

          This is where the schedule needs to come in. If they are scheduled in the office on Tuesday, they can NOT change to Wednesday. We have minimum staffing requirements in my job, and while I can ask for a particular day off (we don’t have WFH), if I’m needed for coverage the answer is no. That’s part of the job. It sounds like there needs to be a but less autonomy and flexibility here. It may be a culture shift, but if they know the guidelines and rules, they’ll learn to adjust. But if they keep being allowed to change schedules last minute, they will. Good luck, and thanks for responding.

    4. Psyche*

      That sounds reasonable. You should be able to tell them that work from home days are not movable or that they need your approval before taking a different day to work from home. They can forgo a work from home day and come in but they cannot automatically take a different day to work from home. And then if they ask to switch their day you can check coverage and only approve it if it actually isn’t a problem.

      1. IT Manager*

        Pysche,
        Thanks. As I replied above, I’m taking a good look at myself and making sure this isn’t all about me. I want to instill some good work habits and norms.

        1. Kathenus*

          It’s definitely not about you, and I think in this case instilling good work habits and norms is teaching them that there is some structure they need to follow. Many/most jobs don’t allow last minute changes without an approval process, at least in my several decades long career.

        2. Psyche*

          I don’t think it is controlling to tell them that they need to request the switches instead of just telling you that is what they are doing. Unless there is a reason that they cannot come in, they shouldn’t be making last minute changes like that if coverage is important. If their car breaks down so they need to work from home, it would be worth it to scramble to find coverage. If they just want to get a free lunch, they can not work from home that week. Being overly rigid (never allowing switches) wouldn’t be great, but deciding that avoidable last minute changes that require you to do extra work are not acceptable is really normal in most work places. They will either come in (which doesn’t sound like a problem) or plan ahead.

    5. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      Make them come up with a replacement. Arrange the schedule so all the coverage in the office is taken care of. Then if Dick wants to work from home Tuesday instead of Wednesday and Tuesday is his coverage day, he needs to switch with Jane who was going to WFH on Wednesday and will now be in the office Tuesday. If Dick can’t find someone to
      switch, he can’t WFH on a different day.

  183. The Powerhouse of the Cell*

    A while ago I had a remote freelance tutoring gig. For one particular assignment, they sent me a rented textbook, mentioning that I would need to mail it back at the end of the student’s semester. At the end of the semester I asked them to get me a return label to send it back to wherever they rented it from, but they never replied. I think I sent several emails over the course of a few weeks and even added it in to a different email thread, but never ever got any instructions on where to send it. That was well over a year and a half ago.

    I have spoken to my contacts there since then (they have hired me a couple more times) but forgot about it until recently, when I uncovered the book in my closet. The folks there tend to be really bad at replying to me when I try to contact them, I would say the grand majority of any emails I send them for any reason get totally ignored. They also often forget they’ve given me work, or ask me why I haven’t finished something they never actually asked me to do, so the place isn’t the most organized. I’m sure that by this point they have been charged the full price of the book, but also I wouldn’t be surprised if 1) they don’t know that and 2) if they did, they don’t know who’s supposed to have it. On top of that, a new edition came out in the meantime so it’s now super worthless.

    In a few months I’m going to be moving overseas and I’m not keen on taking an unneeded fat textbook with me. I figure should ask them again about it, although I dread this because I’m not sure how to say “I tried to give it back to you repeatedly already” without it sounding snarky. If they don’t respond, am I pretty safe in ditching the book? Or hell, am I safe to ditch it now? If I wasn’t still occasionally getting some work from them, I would just get rid of it. The fact that I talk to them periodically makes me nervous that one day someone will figure out I’m supposed to have this book and ask me where it is.

    1. chi chan*

      Since a new edition is out I think it won’t come up. If you want to get rid of the book could you set aside the price of the book? That way, if they do ask, you can reimburse them. If they don’t, you keep your money. And if you receive any other book ask for a return address upfront or save the packaging it came in with the “from” address.

    2. Psyche*

      I would send one final e-mail: “I will be moving overseas in X weeks. I still have the textbook you sent me for Y. I have tried to return it a few times now but have not had a response. Unfortunately, because of the move I will not be able to store it any longer. I also see that a new edition has come out so I’m not sure that this one is even useful to you anymore. If you would like it back, please send me a return label and I will mail it to you. If I do not hear from you by (insert date) I will donate it to the international book drive (or other donation place).” End with some pleasantries about how much you enjoyed working with them or look forward to doing so again.

  184. The Curator*

    Last final piece on the big project and I have to finish it tomorrow. I had a lot on my plate this week and it is drop-dead. I can complete in hour. Let it sit. Then revise. Need a picture of myself. Hate every one of them. I know I am over reacting. Weekend reading after the work stuff. New galley. Calm the F…. Down. Looking forward to it.

  185. Anonforthistale*

    An employee got hired and was always complaining that she was tired. She spoke on how she had two jobs and a baby. I thought that was fine she is doing what she can. Then she became pregnant, and broke the news right away. She would complain about the two jobs and her child. Now she complains about being pregnant all day and tying that in as an excuse for not doing tasks. She spends the day resting in public common areas in our building. When a task is passed on in her pager she ignores it until someone picks it up or spends an hour doing the task which is past allotted time. The leads are very sensitive to her situation and treat her very nicely. A lead even ask others to help her out.
    Aside from slacking on job duties she befriended a few coworkers and has called off of work to go to their parties. They are tired of her excuses as well now that they have seen her true colors. She has also gossiped about other coworkers.

    As a result of her complaining, a lot of us coworkers feel like the situation is unfair and she is taking advantage. However since she is a pregnant woman we are so speechless.

    If it matters we are housekeepers. I plan to let the situation take care of itself because she can dig herself into trouble as time goes by. However, as time passes my workload increases as well.

    1. valentine*

      Don’t do her work. If it’s late, too bad. If someone punishes you for this, I hope you can find a better agency. Most people are tired and would like to rest. I bet no one disabled, especially with chronic pain, gets to rest and ignore assignments. What’s the plan for her future pregnancies? Why keep paying her instead of hiring someone who will do the work? It’s legal to fire a pregnant woman who won’t do her work and whose entire job history with the company includes not doing her work. Surely, she’s too tired to sue, but she can’t prove discrimination based on her pregnancy when she behaved the same way when not pregnant and ignoring assignments isn’t a reasonable accommodation.

  186. LoTR Fan*

    “I hope all is well with you and [The Prancing Pony]!! I didn’t realize I was that bad of a person to get deleted. Not trying to make trouble. But dang. I guess im not your type of person”

    How would YOU have responded to this Facebook message from a former co-worker?!

    Background: we worked together for just about 2 months and it has been almost 6 since I deleted her. The workplace was a nonprofit with less than 10 staff and we were hired within 3 weeks of each other. After she left less than 3 months after being hired into a program managerial position, I had to take over all of her responsibilities in addition to my own and found out that she had ZERO experience for the position (my DREAM role that I have over 5 yrs experience prepping for and the degrees to boot, but I never saw the job posting) and totally messed the whole program up and I had to fix it all!

    Her message comes days after I officially had a role change that combines my original position with the one she vacated. I had just updated my LinkedIn and Facebook accounts with the title. Interesting timing?

    1. Kathenus*

      I’d ignore it. Don’t give her any residence in your brain. You deleted her for a reason, looks like she’s now backed it up that it was the right choice. Move on and don’t give her another thought.

      1. Psyche*

        Yeah. You don’t see her in person so she is now just a random person who overreacts to normal behavior on social media. You barely worked with her! Delete and move on.

  187. None the Wiser*

    Late to the party, but I hope that some sympathetic souls will chime in.

    I am a manager in a technical group. There are other managers on my level and we report in to an uber manager. One of my peer managers has recently been on a rampage. They were hired for their specialized knowledge of a particular and newer product sector. I manage an older sector, with a team of reports who predate my arrival and have many years of experience. This other manager has built their own team of reports who have considerably less experience. The team that I manage focuses on what is bedrock technology for the company, while my peer is managing a politically hotter area.

    It may be worth mentioning here that I am a reluctant manager. While I had to interview (internally) for this position, I was essentially informed that I would be applying for the role. I have never regarded myself as a people person, and given my previous status as a junior member of our team, I tend to take a velvet glove approach to managing reports. I will get tough with individual team members when necessary, but thankfully that is not necessary very often! My peer, in contrast, rules their team with an iron fist.

    Over the time that my peer has been with the organization, they have shown themselves to be abrasive and quite unkind. The recent focus of their ire and unkindness recently left the organization for another opportunity. There were multiple factors involved in the departure, but I am reasonably certain that this other manager was one of them.

    Now the unkind manager appears to be turning their focus to me. I have been refusing to engage, but also feel unsure as to how to best proceed and remain above the fray. There are project areas in which we must co-exist. I am doing my best to be cooperative and a team player, but also feel that I am approaching my limits, and am afraid that I will shut down completely. Any advice on how to power through?

    1. Kathenus*

      Seems like there are three main options – do nothing, talk to unkind manager, talk to uber manager. If it was me (with the caveat I obviously don’t know the specifics of the situation) I’d talk to unkind manager first, and if this isn’t effective then I’d go to uber manager (because the first question might be – have you talked to them about it).

      If you talk to unkind manager, go in with what you want to achieve – is it improving communication between you two, letting them know that certain behavior isn’t acceptable, etc. Have your talking points and goal ready before you engage, so that the conversation doesn’t side track you from your message. Sounds like a pain, good luck.

  188. CPAlady*

    Long story short there is a perception that I take too many personal appointments during the day. I had a baby a year ago. I have a medical condition that requires physical therapy and have had a lot of dental work as a result of the toll the pregnancy took on my body. Also, it turns out my child may have a variety of allergies that we have been testing for. We were given an EpiPen until we can nail it down, so this is a real issue. So yes, I have taken quite a few appointments. To offset my time away (usually a hour or so) I always have a working lunch at my desk. The office etiquette is to generally mark your calendar, mark the in/out board and let everyone around you know what is going on. So that’s what I do. I have been called out on this. I think for two reasons my cube mate (who is best friends with my boss) is nosy and seems to be reporting my comings and goings. I’m not sure why, other than she enjoys drama. Secondly, my boss was given her position awhile back because the only way to give her a raise was to make her a manager. But she has nothing to manage. She never asks about my work. In fact she has straight up said. “I don’t care what you do or how you get it done as long as it’s done.” So I believe she is getting heat from her manager to show that she knows how to manage. The thing that’s a problem for me is that it is the office practice to take long lunches. At least an hour, but usually more, sometimes 2 hours. Often, I am one of 2 or 3 people in the office during lunchtime. So I resent being treated like a child who can’t manage their time when I typically put in more hours doing work than most people in the office.
    I might take 2 or 3 hours a week out for say 2 appointments and 1 lunch. While my colleagues take 5 to 10 hours a week for lunches. I’m a salary worker with an advanced degree. I received two raises in the last couple of months one was COLA one was merit. My work is always done on time and accurate. How do I get a meddling co-worker and inept manager off my back on this. It is stressful enough do deal with medical issues without all this. Also, I haven’t disclosed my medical issues, I think this is driving my nosy co-worker crazy. It is also my belief that the nosy co-worker believes that I am leaving the office for nonmedical appointments. We are remodeling our home so I occasionally will take a call from the contractor and by coincidence leave shortly after to go to PT or take my child for more testing. I feel like the only way to shut her down is explain what is going on in my life to her and my boss. My boss and co-worker often take lunch together and I am never invited. I don’t want to have my personal life a topic of office gossip.

    1. Kathenus*

      I wouldn’t worry about coworker at all, but I would work with your boss and/or HR to get your plan for how you handle your appointments and ‘make up time’ (hate even typing that phrase), to make sure they are aware of what you’re doing and that they approve. If they do approve, then you can let go of the stress of worrying about what they might be thinking. If they don’t, then eventually it would come to a head anyway and you’d need to find a resolution. Leaving the coworker out of it, because they don’t deserve to be a part of this, it sounds like the issue may be that you’ve come up with a plan but not communicated it. Even if autonomy is the culture, since you’re now worried about it there’s little harm in just getting with your manager directly on it so you’re on the same page, and using HR if needed. Good luck.

    2. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I don’t presume to know your home situation, but is it possible for your partner to take on some of the child medical appointments and contractor visits? If you have been doing it all, and it’s because your job is perceived by both of you as more flexible, is that actually true if you are getting in trouble with your boss? You use CPAlady as your handle so I have to wonder… sometimes women’s careers get sidelined by home management because men’s are perceived as more important or more lucrative. But the more you do that, the more you endanger your career and make it so you can never catch up (in terms of salary, importance, what have you).

      Also, talk to your boss about how to handle the needed appointments. It’s a perception issue but being proactive about it can lessen the damage to your reputation.

      1. CPAlady*

        Short answer, yes my husband could technically do more. Although, I work at a hospital with onsite childcare. So if my baby has an appointment it makes sense for me to walk over and pick her up to take to an appointment a few buildings away. I am the only person that can attend my PT appointments obviously. My husband has been taking the bulk of contractor appointments. I occasionally take phone calls, usually less than 5 minutes for contractor questions. I think it is a matter of perception. The other day it blew up because I arrived at the office before our 8am start time. Left at 8:55am to attend a 1 hour 9am PT appointment across the street. By 9:30am I had concerned text messages wondering where I was. I turns out my boss and my bosses boss did not know I arrived to the office at all. (Because they often arrive late.) My nosy cubemate chose not to say anything when they asked where I was. So when I returned to the office at 10am they assumed I hadn’t been in the office at all. The thing that put me over the edge is that because my nosy cubemate is good friends with boss, she does not have this level of oversight. In fact the same day, nosy cubemate took a 2+ hour lunch to get her hair done and no one said a thing. I had a working lunch at my desk because of my earlier appointment. So – if we’re keeping score, I worked at least an hour more than her on that particular. I know this sounds petty, but it is because this is where the office politics is steering it.

        I’ve done some thinking and I think the real problem is that my boss and my bosses boss don’t like to manage people. They do not have a reliable way to measure productivity or performance, so it falls back to perception and gossip. If nosy cubemate says “She leaves all the time.” Then they believe it and don’t take other factors into context.

    3. valentine*

      How did your manager call you out? What does she want you to stop or to start doing? Can you book your appointments closer and list them as lunch? You shouldn’t have to make up work or work more hours if the appointment time and travel falls within that of a long lunch. Have your contractor leave voicemails and return the calls only during the long lunch. Your manager now values butts in seats (or at least yours) during certain hours. Do that for the next while. Don’t share anything you don’t want anyone knowing. Assume what you tell your manager or colleague, they’ll tell each other.

      1. CPAlady*

        Yeah, I took my manager at her word when they said “just get your work done, we’re flexible.” That is clearly not the case. I intend to push my physical therapist for noontime appointments. I think it is less disruptive to book an 8am appointment and arrive at 9am for the day, or for 4:30am and be gone for the day . .. . but I guess I am wrong.

        As as side issue, my nosy cubemate has been annoying me to the point that over the last few weeks I have given her less information about my life. Our office has a culture of oversharing and I decided to stop participating, especially with her. Not in a rude way, I just give vague answers to her nosy questions. “how did the appointment go?” “oh it went fine, thanks for asking.” I think this is killing her, she is a chronic gossip and isn’t very sneaky about it. I will share it here because I am not embarrassed, but after the birth of my last child I have been seeing a pelvic floor therapist. My tailbone was dislocated during birth and sitting is very painful. So I have been seeing a PT and chiropractor to treat this condition. They suggest twice daily PT exercises once during my working day and once in the evening and also requesting a standing desk. I have been hesitant to ask for these things because I’m not sure I’ll be taken seriously. So, this is the other worry I have, I may need to ask for even more accommodation for this condition and it stressing me out it that I will be viewed as high maintenance. 15 minutes away from my desk once daily along with a standing desk is what I would need to ask for.

        1. Kiwi*

          I’m probably too late for this, but speaking as a manager, I’d rather you told me what was going on. If you’re struggling with health problems, I know why you’re out at times and that we need to make allowances / get you a standing desk / etc. If I don’t know that, I’ll wonder if you’re just being flaky. So I strongly recommend talking to your manager and asking for that accommodation.

    4. CPAlady*

      Also, thanks for your replies. Sometimes I just need to vent a bit and get some opinions. I appreciate your time and suggestions.

  189. Virginia Plain*

    I’m just wrapping up a practicum and was wondering, what’s the proper etiquette for thanking everyone? I’m leaning towards getting an actual Thank You card for my practicum supervisor/department I was in and sending out a general thank you through the staff email list (I shadowed in a number of additional departments). Everyone was very nice and accommodating to me throughout my practicum, but I’m not sure if this would be considered odd.

    2. AeroEngineer*

      That sounds pretty similar to what I did, card and personal goodbye to daily supervisor/department, and an email to everyone else. Worked out just fine :)

  190. maeby*

    Late to this party, but question about leaving my last job. I had a second medical issue happen right as I ran out of FMLA time for medical issue #1. It unfortunately worked out so my job let me go.

    How do I list this on future resumes/applications? I was technically fired but I’m eligible for rehire (been encouraged to contact them when I get up to working again!) and it was in no part due to my actual work behavior. My reviews were great, I was good at my job and liked it. I worked there for three years and got a lot of valuable experience. I’m not up for working right now but I’d like to be prepared for the future.

    1. Colette*

      I’d go with something like “I needed some time off to deal with a medical issue that is now resolved, and unfortunately they weren’t able to hold my job.”

      But I wouldn’t address it on a resume, just if they asked.

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