open thread – March 22-23, 2019

by Alison Green on March 22, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please don’t repost it here, as it may be in the to-be-answered queue.

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  1. Fortitude Jones*

    I am very fortunate to have gotten past the phone screen phase of the recruitment process with two software/technology companies and will interview with both next week. One of the jobs is okay salary-wise, but after reading their Glassdoor reviews again, I’m kind of concerned they have a wonky pay schedule (e.g. they pay biweekly, but also hold a percentage of your salary until X time, which is when they give you the balance). I would want to ask them about it and, if that review is true, ask that if I’m the candidate chosen for one of the two roles they’re hiring for that we agree in advance, so in my offer letter, that they not do that. Is that the sort of thing that can be negotiated, or do you all think that it’ll be a total non-starter from their end? I’d hate to have to completely write them off since this job is fully remote, so I’d get to work from home full-time which, for medical reasons, would be ideal for me right now. But withholding some of my pay until some arbitrary date is something I just can’t do – too many bills for that.

    Also, I think I’m having imposter syndrome with the big interview I have coming up for the $80-90k position (and by calling it “the big one,” I’m probably not helping myself, eh). I know I do fantastic in in-person interviews (several of my managers, past and current, have said so), but then I think, “Okay, so you get the job, and then what? What if you’re not really as good as you think you are/can be, and you suck at this job (even though it’s the same as the one you’re currently nailing in another industry), and they get rid of you before you’ve had enough time to save up with this very steep salary increase?” I get extremely nervous. I can’t afford to lose a job, and I’ve never been fired for performance issues in my life – I wouldn’t know how to come back from that. How do people interview for these kinds of high paying jobs without going insane beforehand?

    1. naptime*

      You can totally try to negociate when you get paid to get paid fully. I’d be wary of a company doing that, however. Even if it is spelled out in your contract that is so bizarre, I’d worry about other things.

      The other thing… it’s easy to think of how much you get paid – especially if you’re going for a big bump – as a measure of your worth somehow. Try not to do that. Try to just focus on the job itself, doing good work etc. Imposter syndrome is quite common, but that doesn’t mean it’s actually true. If you get the job, just focus on doing the best you can.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Thanks for the reassurance. In my mind I know I shouldn’t tie pay to worth, but those little thoughts just won’t creeping in my head, lol. The job has a lot of moving parts, which I’m used to, but also another smaller component that I don’t currently do, but that I know is time consuming (e.g. setting up conferences) and a different job altogether – it makes total sense why the salary range is so high. I need to remember that.

    2. Falling Diphthong*

      If it’s only one review there’s a good chance that was some weird one-off circumstance that isn’t well explained–it could even be withholding that the writer didn’t understand.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        There were several reviews that mentioned the pay structure’s name (I didn’t list it here in case they’re the only company that does it – don’t want to out them), but only one review that really broke down what it was and how it worked. I was astounded – I’ve never heard of such a thing. But you make a good point – maybe this person doesn’t fully understand how it works? So I’ll ask about it.

      2. Jules the 3rd*

        My employer (fortune 100) does a % match on 401K and Healthcare Spending Account (HSA) donations, but pays that % at the end of the calendar year. It would be easy to misunderstand that benefits arrangement as applying to pay, I think.

        Because it’s illegal to hold off on actual *pay* past the pay period, in the US.

    3. Darren*

      Percentage of your salary? Or percentage of your bonus? A lot of financial trading companies will do a deferred bonus where you get 50% now, and 50% in 6-12 months (to encourage retention) if you quit before the deferred part comes due you can still get it if you obey the non-compete clause otherwise you forfeit it.

      I don’t think being concerned about being fired is entirely imposter syndrome, it’s a legitimate concern but you have to remember you are good, you’ve done a lot in the past to prove that and even if you have issues and get fired for not meeting expectations there is a lot you can get from that (sometimes it’s learning things you aren’t good with and need more support so you’ll do better in future, sometimes it’s learning how to operate more effectively/safely, etc) and that is typically how you come back from such a thing calling out those learnings.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        The review pointed out that it’s not bonus money, but actual salary owed to the employee – but like suggested above, it could be that the reviewer wasn’t too clear on the pay setup? I don’t know…it just gave me serious pause.

      2. Faith*

        I think you are referring to variable pay. A small percentage of salary is held and paid out at a later date and but it is considered part of salary. However that amount of that payout can go up or down based on various performance factors.

          1. TechWorker*

            That sounds a lot like a bonus regardless of what they call it – I guess you would want to basically take it out of the equation and make sure you’re happy with the base salary without it?

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      First of all, wonky is one of my most favorite words.
      Second, that pay schedule sounds borderline illegal in several US states based on some of Alison’s advice over the years.

    5. she was a fast machine*

      Are you sure that’s a legal thing wrt pay? Most states have laws stipulating how often employees should be paid and that employers cannot withhold pay beyond that.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        The bi-weekly pay piece is totally normal. The withholding of the pay until ‘x’ date is a little weird. As Darren mentioned, retention bonuses are pretty normal but if this is a regular salary thing versus say…a commission draw type setup it would definitely merit a further conversation with the company. Good luck in your interviews!

        2. Niki*

          I worked for a company in the UK that had this – it was basically a guaranteed additional sum (anything up to about 7% of total salary depending on role) which was paid in December of every year. I think it had once been a variable bonus, but at some point they started guaranteeing it and it was essentially part of your salary just paid on a different schedule. If you left mid way through a year you got it pro rated for the number of months you’d worked in your final pay cheque too.

          I was HR/recruitment there and explaining it to new hires was an absolute nightmare – did feel quite good to get the big pay cheque just before Christmas though!

    6. Not A Manager*

      Why would you try to negotiate your pay schedule before they offer you the job? Doesn’t Alison usually suggest waiting to negotiate those kinds of things until after the initial offer?

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s what I meant – I would try to negotiate at the offer stage, should there be one, but I want clarification of this schedule sooner rather than later.

        1. Anne of Green Gables*

          I feel like that’s a reasonable thing to ask about at the “what questions do you have for us” part of an interview, though I’d be sure you have other non-salary questions to ask as well so it doesn’t seem like that’s all you care about.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Absolutely – I have a whole slew of questions for them since the position is a newly created one, so sliding that one in there won’t be a problem. Thanks for the feedback.

    7. Jules the 3rd*

      How to interview high-stakes without going crazy?

      Dig in and go crazy, but only to yourself or in ways that you can use to demonstrate your skills.
      As you’ve clearly already done, spend time researching the company’s public info (totally reasonable!).
      Write down questions you have, about the pay structure, job responsibilities, etc (totally reasonable!).
      Practice interview questions with a friend (totally reasonable!)
      Plan your interview outfit, try it on, take it to the tailor / cleaners now if it needs it. (Sure!)
      Draw little maps between your current role / tasks and the role as you understand it (ok, a little much…).
      Read some articles on the new industry – bonus points in an interview if you can ask how your role ties to some challenge they’re seeing in the industry (eg, ‘I’ll be doing base metals procurement; what are your company’s methods for dealing with conflict commodities?’) (srsly? yes, srsly, I totally did this)
      Meditate on affirmative, supportive statements (“I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and doggone it, people like me.”) because, you totally are nailing a similar job. Industry matters, but tasks matter more.

      Do not:
      Draft a business card for yourself with the new company’s name / logo
      Pre-write a thank you note with lots of hearts and flowers
      Search for every possible company contact on Linked-In and send them puppy pictures (send those to us tomorrow!)

      Good luck.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        If you have puppy pictures, that is. I will also enjoy cats, reptiles, bugs, flowers, sunny fields, or pretty much anything. If there’s even a way to post pictures here. I’ve never checked.

        Ugh. I think I need lunch.

        Good luck to you, and let us know how it goes!

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        Hahaha! I definitely think your list of Do Nots is solid – how creepy is the first one? Lol. Although, I guess one could say they were making the cards as another type of affirmation and putting it out into the universe for good luck. Anyway, I planned to do a lot of what’s on your Do list, but thought I may be going a little overboard. I’m glad to see others do similar things. I’m even going to do a test run of getting to the location just to see how long it takes to get there and what places are nearby that I can hang in until my interview if I show up too early.

        I just can’t believe I’m still in the running for this one, especially since I asked to work remotely when it wasn’t advertised as a remote position. Ah! Thanks for your well wishes – I’ll provide an update next week.

      3. JJ Bittenbinder*

        Draw little maps between your current role / tasks and the role as you understand it (ok, a little much…).

        I do this for every interview, in a fashion. I copy and paste the job description into a word document and, for every bullet point, I add an example of where I have done the same or similar tasks, including achievements/metrics. So, if it says, “design and deploy marketing strategy for X”, I write out “In my role at Y, I created and implemented the “Very Excellent Marketing Strategy”, which generated a Z increase in ABC” or whatever. Just the act of documenting it on paper really helps me develop a fluency around explaining my qualifications and makes it stick in my brain better.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I may do exactly this so that I won’t forget my more impressive stories during the interview. I can usually think of something to say when I get asked behavioral questions, but it’ll be nice to at least have bullets to follow if I can’t remember everything in the moment.

    8. Jennifer Juniper*

      For the first company: If you’re in the US, AFAIK, it’s illegal to withhold a portion of your salary. The whole paycheck must be paid within a certain time.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I am in the U.S. – so the variable pay thing some mentioned above, which is what I think the reviewer was talking about, isn’t legal? Excuse my ignorance on this – I’ve never seen anything like it.

        1. Jessie the First (or second)*

          It’d likely be fine if it isn’t actually part of our true and real base salary, but is an extra, variable performance pay you can earn depending on certain criteria. People think about it as part of their salary because that’s how it is kind of explained. But it’s much more akin to a bonus or commission – assuming, that is, that the amount you get is variable and based on factors that occur over a period of time.

          That can make it legal – because your base salary that you get in your biweekly paycheck is the part you earned, and the % that you get on a later date is something you earn over a longer period of time/based on different performance factors. But it perhaps is “sold” to people as salary.

          Also possible they are just violating wage laws, of course, and simply designating certain % of your salary as not payable when you earn it. So definitely dig into details at the offer stage.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Ah, okay – your explanation sounds reasonable and is something I’ve seen and understand. I get a variable commission now as part of my job, and it’s dependent on how my team performs and how many contracts we get signed in a quarter, so I would be okay with this set up as long as it’s not truly money owed to me from my base salary being withheld.

          2. Observer*

            Also, some types of commission also need to be paid on the same schedule as pay.

            So, yes, absolutely dig in.

          3. Autumnheart*

            My compensation package includes a bonus that is, at my level, equal to 10% of my salary, and tied to various performance metrics both based on my personal performance, and on the company’s performance. It’s not part of my *salary* in that they’re not holding onto a chunk out of my paycheck, but it would be included in a description of overall compensation.

            Hopefully that company is referring to a similar package, and not the “hold onto a chunk of your paycheck” borderline illegal version. And that when they say “salary” they mean “total compensation”.

    9. Person from the Resume*

      I would not expect to be able to negotiate a different pay schedule than everyone else in the company. They have systems and business processes and are unlikely unable to pay a individuals on a different schedule.

      It’s certainly worth clearing up that wonky schedule so you understand, but I still don’t think you can expect to be paid differently than everybody else.

    10. Staja*

      The odd pay structure could be position dependent – in my company, our sales reps get base pay bi- monthly, but commission checks once a month. And, not all of them of them have the same pay plan, so reps on the same team could be part commission/part bonus, all bonus, all commission, etc. And bonuses get paid quarterly. Oh, and huge commission checks? We pay half, while they go through an internal audit process to ensure they’re correct…so, anything is possible. (Source: I’m a commission analyst)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That makes sense too. I didn’t note which positions were talking about the structure – it could have been the actual sales reps or the engineers. I’ll check again to be sure.

    11. Observer*

      You are in the US, no? I’m pretty sure that this illegal.

      Besides the Federal laws, which simply require “prompt” payment, most states have laws with fairly stringent pay schedule laws. And this would never pass muster under those rules.

    12. DreamingInPurple*

      It’s worth asking more about their variable pay setup. I work for a place that has variable pay, but the way ours works is that it’s an additional bonus paid out at intervals as a bonus tied to the company hitting certain metrics. I have no idea how it works at your potential employer, but it’s worth asking them about it and getting the run-down of it from them officially.

        1. Darren*

          So in financial trading basically how it works is there is a pool of money (basically a percentage of profits) and then based on role, level and performance everyone gets a specific share of that pool. With usually 50% of it deferred for 12 months.

          In some cases your share of the pool might be more than your salary (if it’s a good year, or you are high enough level) sometimes multiple times more. Given the size of this the company always talks it up (which it sounds like they are doing here) as it’s a potentially significant portion of your remuneration.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Ah, okay. I need to get more clarification from the HR rep on this. Re-reading the reviews did not help, and the various suggestions here sound reasonable, but I want to make sure it really is.

    13. Anne*

      It sounds like there are a couple of things the “hold a percentage of your salary” could be – a big one is misunderstanding how paid behind pay periods work, especially if they’re coming from a previous job where everyone was paid to date, or if the company changed their pay periods while the person was working there. A lot of people think companies “hold back” their first 2 weeks of pay, to pay out on termination, because they don’t get a paycheck for their first few weeks with a new employer due to how the pay period lines up. There’s also the variable pay that someone already mentioned.

      I don’t think anyone else has mentioned this yet, but I have another possible candidate – when non-exempt employees receive bonuses, their overtime for the bonus period has to be recalculated at a rate that includes the bonus. I could easily see that being interpreted as “holding back” overtime pay. A salary deferral to purchase extra vacation time or similar would also fit this description.

      Essentially, there are a number of things that the poster could be describing that are normal and legal, as well as the potentially illegal stuff. I would just mention the Glassdoor review the next time you get an opportunity to ask them questions, either in another interview or when you get an offer, and ask them to clarify what it was referring to.

  2. Proud University of Porridge Graduate*

    Does anyone have policies for employees handling explicit materials? We are currently developing tech that requires developers to work with graphic images/videos and will eventually have moderators reviewing flagged material daily. I have a pretty good grasp of what is needed for the moderators, but I’m not sure what best practices/policies we should have in place for the developers as they use and share the material for work purposes.

    1. complady*

      I would just treat it like someones SSN –

      You wouldn’t forward that sensitive information as a joke, you wouldn’t leave it lying around unprotected (digitally) for unsuspecting people to find, you would caution people via email that what you’re forwarding contained sensitive information and should not be shared, ect.

      I deal with the compensation of basically everyone’s boss (thousands of people). I keep things as private as possible, don’t gossip about the content, warn people it’s sensitive info, put passwords on everything, ect.

    2. JediSquirrel*

      Specify how they should share it: via internal network only, etc. Is email okay, or is there a plave on your network to store/fetch those materials from? (And I would seriously think twice about email, unless it is all internally handled.)

      Also, be sure to spell out that copying material to jump drives, CDs, DVDs, etc., whether personal or company-owned, is forbidden. It should go without saying that sharing to social media is forbidden, but take a close, hard look at your team and judge whether that is necessary to add.

      If they are allowed to alter images, be sure to specify exactly how they are allowed to alter them, and under what conditions.

    3. Writerboy*

      I’m not sure what kind of explicit materials you’re referring to, but you might want to consider making sure your employee assistance program is equipped to help people who start feeling disturbed by what they’re seeing day after day, and advising those employees that they can call their EAP or speak to their manager if they find it difficult to continue working with it. If you don’t have an EAP, you should. If any employee reports feeling emotionally distressed by having to work with explicit content all day, there should be a way to transition them to a different role that is neither punitive nor gives the appearance of being punitive.

      1. Proud University of Porridge Graduate*

        My team won’t be working on this material until the summer at the earliest, and I’ve been working on this aspect for a couple of months now (in addition to when we hired, because we knew even then that we would eventually have this content). I’ve been working with all offices (in different countries) to be sure they either have EAPs, and working with employees to prepare them for how to handle the stress that will come with this job, and what steps they can take when it gets overwhelming.

        1. Tarra*

          I don’t think the EAP is actually going to be sufficient here. I work with some difficult material and we have an independent practitioner who comes into the offices for regular reflective supervision sessions. Please consider providing this.

          1. Georgia M*

            Absolutely agree. I led the community team at an online photo sharing site you may have heard about. The company I worked for didn’t do enough for the team who worked on this content and routinely put us in harm’s way. You need to manage the long term emotional and psychological impact that this work will have on anyone who comes into contact with this content.

      2. Not Today Satan*

        Agreed, I’ve read a lot of articles about flaggers at sites like Facebook getting PTSD from all the stuff they see.

    5. Zephy*

      NB: I’m just a layman. But I think it would be good to set up counseling services and be very up-front from the very beginning that the services exist and employees are encouraged to use them. The work they’ll be doing sounds (1) important, and (2) psychologically taxing. Secondary trauma is real and treatable, and IMO it’s just good business sense to anticipate those needs and foster a culture of taking care of one’s mental health from the get-go. And, there’s a greater-than-zero chance that at some point, someone working on this project will have some personal experience with the kinds of things the mods are reviewing, and it’ll hit them harder than they think it will.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I’d go a step further and note that management should sit down at a desk once a week and do 3-4 hours of moderation. I think in a case like this that having some experience of what your moderators are going through is really, really important. Another useful strategy is that moderation should be a part-time job for full-time people; that is, everyone gets a break from the ugliness while they go about other duties.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Yes, and PLEASE do not use low-paid contractors in sh*tty call-center environments to do this kind of work like Farcebook does. I read that article.

    6. gecko*

      I’d recommend using placeholders as much as possible. I was told for instance that web developers at PH use cat videos/pictures as their testing items in place of the explicit videos that will obviously be in there eventually. If you can’t use placeholders, maybe try using a redaction tool if the graphic materials are disturbing or could make onlookers uncomfortable.

      Apart from that’s it’d probably be helpful to have training about all sorts of procedures–confidentiality, and also exactly what steps to take if the work requires viewing graphic materials but the developer isn’t willing or able to that at the time.

      1. CAA*

        Yes, this. It’s entirely possible to develop software in this way as long as the properties of the placeholders are sufficiently similar to what’s in the production system. Unless you’re building some kind of AI that analyzes image or video content, your devs don’t need to be working with the actual files. They just need to have files with the same formats and sizes as the ones used in prod.

        If you’re going to be copying your prod data into QA and Dev environments, build a scrubbing process to replace sensitive material with innocuous information before releasing it to your QA and Dev users.

    7. Tarra*

      The Headington Institute has some good stuff on vicarious trauma – it’s ostensibly aimed at aid workers but is relevant here too.

    8. Rex*

      It might be a good excuse to do a more general workplace / quality of life check up:

      Do people have enough PTO (and feel like they can take it when they need it)?

      What’s the workload like? Is it overwhelming? Are people punished when they don’t make quota?

      Is there trust between staff and management, where people feel like they can bring up problems as they arise?

      Etc. Not an exhaustive list.

    9. miss_chevious*

      When we did something similar at my old job, we had all employees sign an acknowledgement that did two things: 1. had them agree that the viewed of the explicit images within the scope of their job duties did not constitute a hostile work environment or sexual harassment and 2. prohibited them from saving or distributing the explicit material for their personal use.

      Whether 1 is enforceable or not is a legal grey area depending on your location and the location of your employees, but it made clear to prospectives the nature of what they were going to be seeing and served a prophylactic purpose against claims.

    10. Anon Mod MGMT*

      I’ve worked in this field for years at all levels, so there are a lot of core things you’ll need to consider —

      Where are you? What are the local laws about the content you are viewing/using to develop AI? In other words, do you have proper escalation paths to law enforcement? Is there a chance child endangerment cases will arise from the content you are asking the moderators to view? Do you have a proper partnership with NCMEC and/or the FBI (or your areas equivalent)? What is your businesses risk with this content? Do you have a proper workflow for encountering terrorist images?

      If you don’t have to worry about that specifically (for example, if the disturbing content is “pre-screened” to some degree and therefore already handled as it needed to be by LE, then you have other things you need to worry about instead)

      Have wellness/resiliency training in place for all moderators. This training should be mandatory and occur on at least an annual basis. Make sure all agents have wellness plans in place after the wellness/resiliency training – these plans should be accessible by direct management in the event the particular employee is unwell enough to access their own plan – that way management can walk them through. Depending on how disturbing the content, I do recommend making sure there is an in-house counselor available to agents on demand. Make sure wellness breaks are included and separate from normal breaks. (For example, lets say your particular state requires 15min breaks every 4 hours – these are NOT wellness breaks. Wellness breaks are completely separate and used as needed based on if the agent saw triggering content or not.)

      When it comes to workspace – are they working near other departments that don’t regularly see problematic content? if yes – they need their own offices where screens cannot be seen. If they work in an open area they need their own section preferably by a separate badge through. Privacy screens encouraged if they need to work in an open area.

      As far as sharing content – again – make sure you are in compliance with local laws. When something is saved to a cloud, it is effectively saved on multiple computers (laymen terms but that’s basically how cloud sharing works). That means that if you are requiring they view CSAM content as part of the graphic imagery, any cloud sharing is considered distributing. (Again, local laws depending). You’ll want to make sure you are in compliance with laws when handling this content. Our legal team helps us out here so I wouldn’t consider myself an expert – hopefully you have some access to a legal representative to help with some of these requests.

      Lastly, I recommend checking out some of IAPPs information on content moderation as there is a push to make it a formal job type (which would mean regulations are standardized). Right now different places do content moderation in very different manners, which means agents get radically different levels of support from their employers. Don’t skimp on agent support just because content moderation isn’t a regulated profession yet.

      That’s basically all I have for this.

      1. Anon Mod MGMT*

        I will add though as someone else mentioned it and it’s a good point – if you’re just developing tech for agents/moderators to view said content, you don’t need to expose the devs. I’ve worked with devs building various in house tools for a variety of moderation teams and we never exposed them to content. It was more “Can an image move from A to B and branch of to X or Y as needed?” or “Can we add a black and white option here for agent wellness?” but the test images we used had nothing to do with the content. So basically, if the devs have no legitimate business reason to be exposed to harmful content, don’t expose them. Let them focus on developing the tools.

  3. Mandy Rae*

    There have been rumors going around my workplace for a while that our superboss is involved with one of his direct reports, the manager of a group I often work with. Superboss (male) is otherwise a very good manager who has treated me well and supported my career, but he has a blind spot when it comes to this manager (let’s call her Achillea).

    Achillea is not good at the hands-on aspects of her job (actual chocolate-making), nor is she a good manager or a responsive coworker. I don’t make chocolate, but part of my work is dealing with the aftermath and suggesting better ways to go about chocolate-making that will help the other teams and the company. Achillea ignores suggestions, blows off meetings, acts rude on occasion, and just does what she wants. Superboss hired her back from another company with a significant promotion (she started here as his assistant originally) and put her in charge of building this new complex chocolate product, and he ignores all feedback about her incompetence and bad behavior. It has gotten so bad that other people have stopped trying to tell him about it, they just do workarounds to not deal with her, and then complain and share gossip.

    Superboss and Achillea were both married to other people when she started this position, and she is at least a decade younger than him. I sincerely don’t know if that matters or not.

    I have been trying to ignore the rumor mill (which also says that one or both of them are getting a divorce) and the gripes about Achillea, but I can’t for three reasons:

    First, and most importantly, Achillea’s incompetence and rudeness directly impacts MY work, and neither I nor my boss (who reports to Superboss) have found an effective way to deal with that.

    Second, Superboss commented to me offhandedly about his divorce, so I know at least one of the rumors I’m hearing is true.

    Third, a coworker I absolutely trust, who is a manager in our group, just reported seeing Superboss REACH OVER AND TAKE ACHILLEA’S SHOE OFF HER FOOT during a meeting. That is such a weirdly intimate act! And to my mind, it confirms that there is truth to the rumors that they are involved.

    What do I do??

    I have lost so much respect for Superboss since hearing about the shoe thing, which alone isn’t a good thing for my career—but is that even something I could ever confront him about? And regardless of that specific incident, dealing with Achillea’s incompetence, Superboss’s blind spot, and the perpetual gossip are making it a lot harder to get work done, as well as ruining overall morale.

    ps. If it matters, Superboss’s boss is pretty high up the food chain, but also works out of a different office, so most of the team doesn’t have contact with him.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      If you have any kind of confidential ethics hotline or similar, I would absolutely send this there. A boss being involved with one of his direct reports is IMMENSELY shady and most companies take a very dim view of that sort of thing — especially since, given the power dynamics in play, there’s no way to say for certain if Achillea is actually into this or if she’s being exploited. (And her bad attitude isn’t really an indicator either way.)

      But I absolutely would not confront either of them directly about this. There’s no good way for that to end.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        This is the safest option.

        If you don’t have an ethics hotline, I’d suggest mentioning the rumors to HR and outlining how they are effecting productivity and morale (if you think you can trust HR).

        1. valentine*

          Report the work impact and rumor to HR. Calm down about the shoe thing. Don’t gossip; refuse to receive gossip.

        2. Gumby*

          Just so I can enjoy the gasps of horror: when I was in a similar but not-quite-so-bad situation (the two carrying on the blindingly obvious affair were both executive-level but one did not report to the other) one of the participants? Was the head of HR. Which, come to think of it, did make it sort of work-relevant because we didn’t really trust HR with sensitive info because of that. I mean, I trusted them to pay me on time and do recruiting, etc. But I would not have gone to them about, say, an accommodation.

    2. Guy Incognito*

      If you have issues with this co-worker, then address it outside of the rumors. Right now they are just that – rumors – and you don’t need to run around the office pretending that’s the issue when there is a real issue.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        * Document the issues and the business impact.
        * Document that you have sent those issues / impact to Achillea (great name) and SuperBoss, and their reaction / lack thereof.
        You can do these retroactively – a note to your boss, reminding him ‘I talked to Ac & SB about X in December, here’s what has / hasn’t changed’ is a good starting point. However, you may need multiple instances to build a good case, and that can take time, so be very very patient.

        Once you have 2 – 3 instances, send to SB’s boss, in a ‘this problem still exists, how can we fix it’ note.

        Separately, if you have a confidential HR system, then yes, use it to report the relationship. But build the case for Achillea’s incompetence separately from the possible affair.

    3. foolofgrace*

      I can’t advise other than to say that whatever you do in regard to Achillea, keep it about the j-o-b. Wbat exact things is she doing or not doing that makes the workload difficult for others? Don’t get muddled in with interpersonal things, although I appreciate that that background makes things even more difficult.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It boils down to is this something to lose your job over? I suggest leaving unless you have a direct line to an upper boss who you know cares. It’s going to cause you more pain and suffering trying to chase the rats off that ship.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      I have lost so much respect for Superboss since hearing about the shoe thing, which alone isn’t a good thing for my career—but is that even something I could ever confront him about?

      No – it has nothing to do with you or your job. You can be personally disappointed in him, but again, that has nothing to do with your job. Stick to the facts about the actual work problems with Achillea if you must confront him about anything, but be prepared for him to blow you off if what you think is happening between them really is true. You can also contact your company’s ethics department, but I also wouldn’t advise going into detail about the shoe thing with them either – I’d just say that I’m concerned his personal relationship with her is impacting his ability to be an objective assessor of her work and, therefore, you are concerned that he’s not appropriately managing his team.

    6. Observer*

      I’m going to disagree a bit with the others. It’s true that while the shoe thing is not really a work issue, it is relevant in that it indicates that the rumors are true and also shows some pretty bad judgement because it’s such an inappropriate thing, regardless of whether they are having an affair.

      The only reason to bring up the affair is to explain why you are bypassing the boss. And that’s where the shoe thing comes back up. ie Grandboss clearly has a relationship with Achilea that is so different from most work relationships and so publicly intimate that you realize that it pretty much doesn’t matter what you say to GreatBoss about her.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        The shoe thing is a red herring – at my last job, one of my male coworkers lifted my foot, licked his finger, and wiped dirt off the front of my shoe when I kept whining about a scuff mark on it (some drunk guy stepped on my brand new Chucks). From an outsiders perspective, yeah, that would look pretty intimate; however, this guy and I didn’t even speak to each other outside of work.

        OP needs to focus on what’s provably true – people have reported Achilleas’s bad behavior several times to the boss, and the boss has done nothing about it. As a result, OP’s team can’t get what they need from her, which is negatively impacting the company. Let the company determine the appropriateness of this relationship without adding fuel to the fire.

        1. Observer*

          You’re certainly right that the key issue is that Achilea is not doing her job and boss is ignoring it. DEFINITELY the thing to focus on.

    7. 3 PM Slump*

      Dang, I came to AAM to distract myself from the little voice in my head asking for chocolate; now I read this whole scenario and all I can remember is that they were involved in chocolate-making! Time to go get some chocolate —

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I sat on ther pun as long as I could…
      Your boss sounds like a real heel!

    9. Batgirl*

      I was thinking that this sounded very much like an infidelity dynamic before you got to that part. It actually matters more than you would think. You’re questioning big bosses’ judgement in being involved with her,and you are right to; when people are married and sleepwalk into an unplanned affair they very often end up with much more unsuitable partners than if they were single and looking, because they don’t spend much time together or assess each other as potential partners.
      Then comes the cognitive dissonance. People who never expected to be cheaters start to lose a grasp on their former characters and start doing highly questionable out-of-character things (like giving your girlfriend who you don’t know very well a job. This is small potatoes after betraying your spouse).
      My experience is that this only gets worse and for some reason ends up being extreme in other ways (untrustworthy with finances etc). Don’t rely on your former experiences of his character because that character is in freefall right now. There might still be time for him to pull back if his boss puts a hard stop to it all and fires him. If he remains in place, you should look elsewhere.

  4. a little bit Alexis*

    I have a new-ish coworker (she’s been here for about 6 months) who is driving me a little crazy. She’s perfectly nice as a person, but needs way too much validation and struggles with social cues. I’m not her supervisor, but because of how our schedules line up, I work with her a lot and I did train her on certain tasks, so when our actual supervisor isn’t in she tends to come to me with questions. Which was fine at first, but now it’s just turned into her frequently telling me very long stories about basic patron interactions to see if she made the right judgement call.

    We do have gray areas where we have to make judgement calls on our own, but we’re not dealing with anything serious, so even when I would have handled something differently it doesn’t even mean she was wrong. She also apologizes all the time. She apologizes for asking questions, for eating her lunch, for “being annoying” which is another issue.

    I don’t know how to deal with her randomly saying things like, “I’m sorry, I must be so annoying to everyone” when she’s legitimately been annoying. At first I would brush it off, but now I don’t to know what to do. I like her personality, but I sometimes avoid talking to her because like I mentioned at the top she doesn’t know how to read social cues when someone wants to end a conversation. I have two examples from just yesterday. The first time she wouldn’t stop talking and I had originally initiated the conversation, so I said, “Alright, I’ll let you get back to what you were working on.” And started to walk away, but she kept talking. The second time was the same conversation 20 minutes later when I said, “I’m sorry, but I really need to go to the bathroom.” And as I was on my way out the door she continued talking!

    The last thing that I’m annoyed about is there’s one day when we open together and I’m always a good 15 minutes early, but she arrives even earlier and does all of the work to open before I get there and before we’re even getting paid. I tried to do one thing last week, which was to turn on our two main computers, she came over when I was waiting for the second one to boot up and was like, “Oh, I can turn that one on!” and proceeded to turn it off. I’ve tried to curb this because if there’s anything left to do when I arrive, she’ll offer to do it and I’ll say something like, “I can do it since you got literally everything else done.”

    I don’t want to go to my supervisor because all of these things seem pretty petty, but do you guys have any ideas for how I could kindly try to address these things as they come up?

    1. fposte*

      Oh, she’s annoying, and oh, I feel for her because she seems really anxious.

      So this is one of those situations where you move to the direct. “Jane, I have to stop you now. I need to catalog the vintage Penthouses; please go back to the archive dungeon.” (You can do that no matter who initiated the conversation.) “Jane, you’ve said that about being annoying before. What are you hoping for from me when you say that?” You can even lay the groundwork with a general “Jane, I don’t have a lot of mental room for conversation at work, so I’m going to stop you in future when I need to go back to other work. I’m letting people know ahead so they know it’s not personal.” And then mean it and do it. You’re not saying this to hurt her, but you also don’t have to strain yourself to avoid her feelings being hurt. It’s okay for her to be a little hurt that she can’t have what she wants; what she wants isn’t reasonable for the workplace to provide.

      On the last, though, I’m not sure of what the problem is (aside from the possible problem of working off the clock if you’re non-exempt, but that’s both of you, not just her). Is it that you really like starting the computer? It sounds more like you’re just kind of Jane’d out, but this seems like a feature and not a bug–if she wants to do startup, let her do startup.

      1. a little bit Alexis*

        Yeah, the computer things was getting closer to BEC territory than an actual problem. I just couldn’t get over her physically reaching over me to “turn on” a computer that was already on, just loading slowly.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Argh… I agree with fposte on the scripts. This one isn’t just BEC, reaching over you to do a thing you’ve already done signals that she doesn’t trust you. I would definitely try ‘hey Jane, we are a team, and share the work. If you do things that the team has already done, it signals you don’t trust us, and it’s frustrating to me.’

          Now, I say this as someone with OCD (yes, diagnosed, no one has to say ‘don’t use that casually’): I have a couple of times been Jane and physically could not stop myself from hitting the button in a similar situation. My hand moved faster than my conscious mind could switch gears. Whatever drove it, overriding someone else’s work is *my* / Jane’s problem to work on and address, not yours, and you / my coworker have every right to be annoyed. Direct evidence / feedback of my coworker’s annoyance was embarrassing but helped motivate my brain’s retraining. Be kind, but be direct.

        2. valentine*

          ~Stop her a foot away with a raised hand and “Too close” or “Personal space.”
          ~Ignore when possible, including when she’s done all the work. She seems like she needs to-the-letter instructions, so asking her to save some for you or trying to split it formally will probably have her droning on about how she did z and wasn’t sure if you’d rather do that sometimes because it’s less boring or did she do y right.
          ~Keep walking away. Let her keep talking. Might feel rude, but so what? She’s the rude one, as she won’t shut up.
          ~Warn and/or report her for working off the clock.

        3. Not So NewReader*

          “Please don’t reach in front of me when I am standing close to something.”
          I have seen people actually say this. I think the hard part here is feeling like “This is pretty basic and how do I explain something so basic?”
          Well, here is a person that needs you to explain these types of things. Target the recurring things and have a go-to instruction for those instances. Use and re-use your go-to instruction each time until change happens.
          So each time she reaches in front of you, “Please don’t reach in front of me when I am standing close to something.”

          What I like about having the go-to instructions is this does help with BEC stuff. I can tell myself, “I have a plan and I am working on my plan for this recurring issue.”

          With the problem of ending conversations, you can say, “I know you want us to keep talking but I really have to get some stuff done here, so I have to leave this conversation.”

          I have a friend who uses a certain word that I do not like. I settled on saying, “oh, that’s not cool” each time he said the word. I think we went through 2-3 more instances and then he stopped using the word. It’s a similar pattern, pick out what you will say, keep it to one or two sentences and say the same thing each time.
          It’s also okay to say how to handle something going forward. For example: “Instead of just pushing the power button, ASK me first if I have turned the computer on. If I am close to the computer it’s likely that I have turned it on.”

          Oddly, by speaking directly like this you might help her to calm down some. It will take time so if you decide to adopt an idea like this you will need to use it consistently so she gets the message.

    2. Weekday Warrior*

      Great user name! “What would Alexis do?” In this situation is fun to consider. Something crazy but kind! Best to go with fposte’s good advice.

    3. MsM*

      I’d tell her that you understand that she’s anxious, but you don’t think these detailed rehash sessions are actually helpful at this point, and she should either talk to her supervisor about setting up regular check-ins for this type of feedback or just start assuming that no complaints mean she did okay.

      Also, it’s okay to be a little more direct. Instead of, “Okay, I’ll let you get back to what you were working on,” go with, “Okay, I need to get back to work now.” Or, “Jane, when I say I need to go, that means I can’t keep talking. Please don’t follow me out the door.” If that results in a flurry of apologies, tell her that’s not necessary; you just need her to work on not doing it in future. And if none of that helps, then you should go to someone in charge to let them know you’re having trouble figuring out how to guide her and would appreciate suggestions or support.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        At some point, OP, you might want to say, “You don’t need to apologize so much. You just need to let me go back to work [or whatever it is you would like her to do differently].”

    4. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      This calls for being direct. Don’t put it on her “I’ll let you get back to XYZ.” Put it on you. “I’m need to finish my work.” If she follows you into the bathroom tell her to stop – that’s just rude. I know being direct is not an easy task, but with someone who doesn’t pick up on social cues, it’s the only way to handle it. Any type of hint or passive aggressive behavior will only make her question herself more.

      As for the last part when she does everything when you open together, let her. Unless she’s going to your boss and complaining that you’re not doing your part when you open together, I wouldn’t worry too much about it.

      1. Argh!*

        I agree about being direct, especially with someone who seems to be oblivous to what are meant to be social cues. People often think they’re communicating when in reality they’re being obtuse. If subtle communication isn’t working, stop doing it and try a more honest and direct way.

    5. Not A Manager*

      I think when someone who doesn’t understand social cues says “Oh I must be so annoying,” what they are really saying is, “I wish you would help me not annoy you.”

      I really believe she wants kind, direct feedback. You don’t have to say, “Jane, you’re annoying me now,” but you can name the behavior (kindly) and ask her to stop it.

      1. Parenthetically*

        Yes! There are so many people who can pick up on someone’s annoyance but genuinely do not know how to/do not have the spoons to address it, so the best they can do is name the annoyance. Totally agree that it’s a plea for help.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Her:”Oh, I must be so annoying…”

        Me:”Coworker, you say that a lot. It would be in your own best interest to stop saying that.”

    6. Adminx2*

      For the sorry for annoying you my trick is “Me teaching you is not a favor. The more I make sure you know what you’re doing, the more I can take a vacation and not be bothered by stuff because you’ve got it covered. Best you can do is ask questions and then implement things confidently.”

      Then just keep reinforcing the better they do, the LESS you have to worry. Since they are already wrapped up in how everyone else feels, this turns it back to them and clearly lets them see why doing good work is about being annoying or favors.

    7. Argh!*

      Her supervisor needs to give her more feedback, and then tell her that if she’s not sure about something to come to the supervisor. She also needs to hear from an authority figure that she is not to undo someone else’s work (turning on a computer) and that she needs to keep conversations short.

      It’s not fair to her for everyone to keep quiet about these things, and it’s not fair to the supervisor not to know how a new hire is doing.

    8. Lissa*

      “I don’t know how to deal with her randomly saying things like, “I’m sorry, I must be so annoying to everyone” when she’s legitimately been annoying.” This is a MOOD. I’ve been on both sides of this one, unfortunately. When I was younger I struggled a lot with anxiety that manifested as constantly wanting reassurance, feeling like if I could just get enough of it it would fill the hole of my insecurities – but it never did. And the feeling was awful – it was like I couldn’t stop myself. I partly believed that if I kept acknowledging I realized I was annoying, the person would be less likely to be annoyed by me. And also wanting reassurance I wasn’t actually annoying.

      I’m in a much better place now and don’t tend to do that – but I’ve been on the other side of it with people now, and while I feel sympathy I also realize that there’s very little that *I* can do to really fix the situation overall, and giving constant reassurance just isn’t always possible, or desirable even. Sometimes it can be like you “feed” someone the way that seems kindest “No, of course you aren’t annoying!” but it ends up increasing the behaviour, which isn’t good for either party.

    9. AnonAcademic*

      I have had this coworker, and I really regret not being blunt with her sooner, before it reached BEC. The brief awkwardness of having to be blunt is a much lower price than ongoing constant annoyance. Others have offered great scripts; I will just add that body language (putting your hand up in a “stop” gesture, raising your volume and making your tone less soft) all help and you may need to be prepared to talk over her briefly or repeat yourself (got to go! leaving! bye now! ::walk out of door::). Its kind of like launching yourself off a diving board, you need some gusto or momentum to interrupt someone who is so caught up in their own anxiety/awkward spiral of doom.

    10. JJ Bittenbinder*

      I see that you’ve already gotten some great advice. With the very long stories, I’d see if there was a way to interrupt her and say, “Sorry, Jane. I don’t have a ton of time. Can you jump ahead to the part you have a question about?” I tell long stories sometimes, and it really does help to be redirected, not just in the moment but in terms of training myself to think, before I even approach someone, what is the real question here? What’s the BIQ (behavior, impact, question)? I think this has helped me cut down on unnecessary details.

      As for the rest, yeah, I’d saying being very direct is paramount. Maybe even if she gives you an opener like, “Do you have a minute? I have a question” you can say explicitly, “I have 3 minutes right now.” Get it the habit of kindly setting limits.

    11. Batgirl*

      Oh the still-talking-as-you-are-walking-away thing! I have one of those! I keep walking and leave the area mid sentence. I honestly thought if she would see that I wasn’t going to halt for her she would quit trying to extend conversations. I kind of wish I’d nipped it in the bud by stopping each time early on and saying ‘why are you talking to me as I’m walking away, it’s really distracting and makes me feel I can’t leave’. But my b/f, whose mother does this unrepentantly, says the only solution is to walk away faster.

  5. Folklorist*

    Has anyone ever applied for a writer’s/artist’s residency before?
    I’ve had a novel in my head forever that needs to come out, but between my full-time job and my part-time job and general life stuff, the pockets of time I’m able to carve out for writing and research aren’t enough. Starting this week, I’ve been at my full-time job for 4 years, which means I now get 6 weeks of paid vacation per year. I’d really like to use four of those to take some time and write.
    1) How do I ask for this huge chunk of time off? In years past, I got 3 weeks of vacation and I’ve barely used any, and now I’m close to burnout.
    2) I have an extremely kind and understanding boss who’s been a huge supporter of mine, and who just went through hell to get me a merit raise (something my company rarely does outside of major promotion). It’s enough money to keep me at the company, but not enough to make me not need a second job. I’d like to ask him to write my letter of recommendation for the residency, but it seems like I’m asking so much of him that makes it seem like I’m not invested in the company—I am! I just really need a little space to un-burn-out and expand my horizons creatively.
    Any advice on any part of this? Thanks!

    1. Dragoning*

      I would start by looking up residencies or retreats you are interested in. A lot expect you to already have something to work on. Especially ones that will take four weeks–that’s a lot of investment, and typically they don’t want to accept someone without something to work on.

      Not sure why you want your boss to write you a recommendation letter. Usually when you apply to these things, you submit your writing samples or projects you’re working on—whatever you have of it, or perhaps a synopsis, that kind of thing.

      It is possible you are thinking of entirely different kind of thing than I am used to, but I think you may want to research the retreats/residencies more first.

      1. AnonAndOn Original*

        Some of these residencies do ask for letters of recommendation, but they tend to want them from people familiar with your writing.

          1. Folklorist*

            Thanks, yes! I’ve already found a few I’m applying to, and they ask for recs. I’m already a professional writer/journalist and my boss knows my work very well. He’s also well known and respected, which is why I would want him. I already have a project with some research and writing…. it’s a novel, so it will definitely fill up four weeks!

    2. Lily Rowan*

      As with everything, you know your work culture, but a place that gives 6 weeks of vacation has got to have at least some people taking large chunks occasionally. I think you can just ask for the time! You should go in prepared to talk with your boss about how you’re planning for a slow time at work (if that’s possible), thoughts about any needed coverage, etc., but they will figure it out. If you went on maternity or other medical leave, they would figure it out!

      Good luck — that sounds great.

      1. valentine*

        Go in assuming you won’t get more than three weeks off in a block. Don’t say why, as you’re essentially saying you want a different job. Boss does not want to subsidize your dream.

    3. Hold My Cosmo*

      I have twice taken four-week stretches of PTO to pursue something personally meaningful. Both times, I was downsized out of the jobs within three months of coming back from leave. I would not do it again.

      1. KatieKat*

        A counterpoint! I also have twice taken four-week leaves and was downsized neither time! Just offering a counter-example, it doesn’t always turn out one way or the other.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      You can absolutely ask your boss for a letter of recommendation and say what you did here: you appreciate everything he’s done for you, you look forward to continuing on with the company, but you also have creative needs that aren’t necessarily being met during your regular work hours, so you want to do this retreat to have an outlet for said creativity and you’d be honored if he could write something on your behalf. If he went hard in the paint for you to get you a merit increase your company typically doesn’t do, he likes you a lot and wants to keep you. So if you’re asking him simply for a letter, and you’re not asking for any time off that you didn’t already earn, AND you’re not asking the company to pay for your participation in the retreat at all, I can’t see him saying no. I’m not a people manager, but I’ve had great ones in the past who would bend over backwards to make sure I got whatever I asked for so I wouldn’t leave.

    5. Reba*

      Some residencies are anytime, pick-your-week kind of affairs, while others occur during set periods. Sometimes there is structured interaction with a cohort of people, other times getting time in isolation is the point.

      It sounds like an opportunity with a flexible time range might be better for fitting in with your job — you could schedule the sabbatical to be as kind as possible on your team based on the work volume (if that’s predictable). OTOH, a residency with a fixed term might be useful for making the case for the time off, like this is a unique opportunity and it only happens at this time–so the length of time is justified and it’s a priority to make it work.

      Also, I think your point about hardly having used vacation and feeling yourself nearing burnout is exactly the rationale you use for asking for the big chunk of time.

      I agree with others that think a letter from a former prof or teacher or someone who knows your creative side would be better than a boss letter. I suppose boss could speak to your time management, but it’s hard for me to imagine how he would attest to your ability to write a good novel?

      Good luck!!!

    6. sheep jump death match*

      I think you should not be this loyal to a company that put your manager “through hell” before giving you a raise that STILL isn’t enough to live on. You’re worth more than this.

      1. Folklorist*

        Yeah, I know–I’ve thought about leaving because the pay really isn’t great. The benefits are amazing, though! 100% employer-paid health insurance, 6 weeks vacation, 3 weeks sick leave, employer IRA contributions (not matching, just straight contributions), extreme flexibility and teleworking when we want, etc. Also, a great team, a great boss, good ability to grow and develop. I’ve worked in some super-toxic places before, so even though the money itself isn’t great, everything else has made up for it–up to this point. I get what you’re saying, and I’m starting to get there, but it’s been really ideal for the past few years, stability and development-wise. Not to mention, finding a great, stable staff writer job at a magazine isn’t exactly easy these days!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          You’re a journalist and you get all that?! Yeah, I wouldn’t leave either (says the ex-journalist). I’d try to freelance on the side if possible, bartend, whatever – your benefits are fantastic and very rare.

          1. Folklorist*

            Exactly! Believe me, I know how lucky I am! I freelance and coach axe-throwing on the side, but all of that doesn’t leave time for creative endeavors. So I can live fairly well, but I’m trying to carve out time to work on the things I really want to work on. If I could just pay off these damn student loans (from journalism school, hah!), I’d be able to jettison a lot of the extras and get down to writing.

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Ugh, the loans – I so feel you. That’s why I’m constantly looking for newer and better positions. I’m going to die with this debt if I don’t find something else soon.

              1. Folklorist*

                Haha, yes! As far as part-time jobs go, it’s pretty fun and profitable, but exhausting. A lot of it can be like herding drunken cats (because yes, people drink while doing this!). But it’s REALLY cool when you get some people who are really not confident in themselves at all and think they’ll never be able to do it, and then just see them open up over the time that they’re there. Not to mention, I’ve become a lot more confident in myself and my own leadership abilities (not to mention performing/public speaking!) since starting this job. Axe-throwing is becoming more of a thing around the States and is a great stress reliever! Check out your city and see if there’s a range (or three) there.

        2. JJ Bittenbinder*

          Yeah, those are some amazing benefits. Good for you!

          Bear in mind that I know nothing about journalism or residencies, but is there any way you could combine this and have a work assignment come out of it? Do a piece or a series about your experience? Just spitballin’ here…

    7. Lucy*

      Six weeks’ leave is fairly standard for the UK (statutory minimum PTO is equivalent to 5.6 weeks) but it’s very common for companies to have policies preventing anyone from taking more than two weeks at a time. Taking four weeks at once would usually need special permission and might well be termed a sabbatical rather than a vacation/holiday. That would seem to fit quite well with a residency.

      … what happens if you can’t bear to come back?

    8. Arts Akimbo*

      Yes! I had an attack of Why Not Me, Why Not This Year, Do All The Things and applied for a spot in a highly coveted artist residency program in a country that has long been on my bucket list to visit– and I got in!! (My application was very passionate, haha!)

      Here’s the thing I found out after getting bitten by the apply-for-residencies bug– many of them are for just a week or two! You could easily do them without even taking an extraordinary time off work. That might not help you with this particular situation, but you might be able to find others that aren’t as long for future excursions! Best wishes, and happy creating!! :)

  6. Folklorist*

    This is your It’s-Officially-Spring!-Get-Up-And-Do-Stuff! ANTI-PROCRASTINATION POST!!!! OK, so it may not feel like spring here, but still…take anything that you’ve been putting off—those emails you need to write; those invoices you need to file—and do them. Right now. I know, it sucks. But get it over with. Then come back here and brag about it!

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        I had to Google ‘pomodoro’, but it looks like a great technique! Definitely something I semi-do now, but the extra structure around it seems super helpful. Thanks for mentioning it.

        1. Anax*

          Thank the commentariat – they suggested it last week, actually, because I’m bad about taking real breaks. :) This being said, there’s a lot of phone apps for it – I have Productivity Challenge Timer on my phone now, and because I like the aesthetic.

    3. Iris Eyes*

      Thank you I sent the email to get started on doing the thing. I’ve only been putting it off for 50 days or so. lol

    4. HDL*

      Bragging because I already did those things! My spring resolution: take 5-10 each morning before checking email, etc, to clean my desk. It’s not completely clean, but much of the old paper piles are now filed, recycled, or shredded. Anyway, thanks for the visual caffeine!

    5. Parenthetically*

      I got so much done yesterday — THANK GOD because my kid is sick today so I’m getting zero things done — that I don’t even have procrastination material to work with! I suppose I could do another load of laundry but I don’t know if I can be arsed.

  7. Anon for this*

    I need some advice, lovely commentariat.

    I’ve been offered a position with a new org that seems exciting and is in line with my current 5-year plan. I am so happy to have gotten it, and I have accepted it.

    However, I am very concerned about giving notice to my current boss. She truly is a lovely person and an amazing boss, but she takes things like this very personally. For context, my colleague told her that he would be moving in 3 months because his spouse got a new job in a different city, and my boss made him cry because she would not relent. I know some of it is concern because our team is short staffed and the organization is in a hiring freeze. But some of it is just that she doesn’t take these things well.

    Another layer of complication: I’m only giving 2 weeks notice. I’m asking for 3 weeks before I start the new job because I really need a week to recalibrate after spending the last three years in a pretty toxic office (which is leading to high turnover in general – when I leave, my team will be down to 3 including her). I’m afraid she’ll see this as a personal affront. I’ve also had lots of doctor appointments over the past three months – partly in anticipation of being without insurance for three months at my new job, and partly because I’ve had conditions I’ve needed addressed.

    How should I approach this? I’m at a loss. I’m generally anxiety avoidant, and I don’t want to hurt her. But this is happening – it’s guaranteed – and I want to pull the bandaid off sooner rather than later.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      You are leaving this job. It sounds like no matter what, she doesn’t give references for anyone who leaves. So that actually takes some pressure off – you have nothing to lose! You’re leaving, you get to choose to be professional about it, and after that, things are out of your hands. If she throws a tantrum or tries to make you cry, let her or leave the situation. “This isn’t helping me move my work over to Jane. Can we please focus on that?” or “I’m going to head back to getting my work moved over to Jane, but thanks for the concern” are good replies to have on hand. At the end of the day, you don’t owe her anything.

      1. valentine*

        She truly is a lovely person and an amazing boss […] my boss made him cry because she would not relent […] pretty toxic office
        Anon for this: When you are free, I hope you’ll reflect on the contradiction here because she is neither truly lovely nor an amazing boss. Even a pedestrian boss would be happy for you and wouldn’t have you worrying about their reaction. She doesn’t even deserve two weeks. Be prepared to broken-record her. Don’t defend or debate. If she tells you to leave immediately, consider it a gift. Better to lose money than more of your health or life. I wonder if just leaving will have an immediate positive impact on your health.

        2. Observer*

          Yeah, really!

          “Lovely” people do NOT behave like this, even people who have a good reason to be stressed.

        3. JJ Bittenbinder*

          Seriously. made him cry??

          Congrats on your new job, Anon for this. I left a job a few months ago that I hadn’t been in for long, and giving notice was very difficult. I have anxiety anyhow, but my then-boss was neither lovely and nor amazing, and I seriously needed to take a Xanax to do it. She didn’t react horribly, but she didn’t react well, and pushed back a LOT on the length of my notice period (she wanted 4 weeks, I eventually caved and gave her 3).

          The good thing is, it’s a situation with an expiration date. You do it, you work your 2 weeks, and then you are free. One thing that helped me was making a list ahead of time detailing my proposed transition plan. I’d also been quietly documenting my processes and work outputs to save time on the other end. It allowed me to go into the meeting with a clear set of talking points, which I desperately needed because my mind goes blank when I’m very anxious.

          You can do this! At the end of the day, she can’t tell you that you’re not allowed to quit, right?

          1. JJ Bittenbinder*

            Wow, I should have scrolled down more to see that many people had already made the transition plan suggestion.

            I will add this: you will be amazed by how great you feel when it’s done, your notice is complete, and you have that week off. It’s the feeling of being light and free and in control. It’s fantastic!

    2. Ama*

      One very important thing to remember — you can’t control (nor are you responsible for) how your boss acts as long as you deliver the news in a calm and professional manner.

      If she starts being unprofessional after you tell her, maybe consider saying “It seems like you need some time to absorb this, I’ll give you some space” and then leaving the room.

      1. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

        This. You are not responsible for other’s emotions. Don’t allow yourself to feel guilty or bad about how she handles it. As long as you’re not rude about it, it’s honestly not your problem.

      2. Bernie*

        I agree with this. You are only responsible for your own actions. Her throwing a fit would only highlight one of the reasons you’re leaving the position. Also, you are totally normal for wanting to take a week off in between jobs.

      3. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 You are not responsible for other people’s emotions, especially not in a professional setting doing a normal professional thing with a normal professional timeline.

        Might help to have a plan for her to review, as in ‘I’m leaving, this is my 2 weeks notice, here’s my projects and the way I propose to wrap them up or hand them off.’ Maybe giving her a series of professional decisions to make will distract her from an unprofessional response.

    3. Kathenus*

      Congratulations on the new position! I know that being worried about the reaction to giving notice is pretty common, but it shouldn’t be. Please don’t overthink this. It’s a normal part of business, and your only responsibility is to do this professionally – give an appropriate notice, work with your current boss on what the priorities are for your notice period to ease the transition, and act professionally during the last weeks. That’s it. You are not responsible for your boss’s feelings, and you should try to get in a mindset where you don’t let her control yours.

      Practice the script with a friend ahead of time. Have your typed letter (as many HR departments require this) ready and just let her know that you’ve accepted another position, your last day is XX, and that you’ve really enjoyed your time at this organization. That’s it. You don’t need to tell her your start date at your new job, and even if she somehow finds out you do not need to justify taking a week off between jobs. If she tries to push back, just repeat that the decision is made, and what can you do to make the transition as easy as possible during your last weeks. Rinse and repeat.

      Do not give her power over you by taking on her emotions, toxicity, or unprofessionalism. And don’t get into a cycle where you try to justify leaving, your notice, or anything about what you do once you leave. Just do a great job for the rest of the time you’re there and let her deal with her own part in this of setting the plan of how to move forward. Congrats again.

      1. sange*

        This. I went through this once. a truly toxic environment where my boss openly wept when I gave notice. I gave 3 weeks notice and I regretted it. She became worse than usual, wouldn’t speak to me and would only communicate by email even if we were in the same room, and I really wanted to just GTFO. Why waste another week of your life there? Congratulations on your new job!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I had a manager cry too when I gave notice – it was the most bizarre reaction I’d ever seen until I found out later that my leaving was one of the last straws for HR. She’d run too many people off, and HR ended up forcing her boss to demote her.

    4. Alex*

      Steel yourself with a few responses to her expected bad reaction, and repeat as necessary.
      One trick I’ve used is to signal what behavior I’m expecting from the other person. For example, “I’ve accepted a position as Teapot Designer, and my last day will be April 5. I hope you’ll support me in this transition so it can be as smooth as possible for everyone.” Hopefully that will tell her brain to go “Oh, yes, of course I need to behave that way…” instead of going with her knee-jerk reaction of “NOOO DON’T LEAVE ME!!”

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Along with this, I’d prepare a transition plan and present it to her when you give your notice.

        Use Alex’s suggested script and then tack on something like “Here’s a list of everything I’m responsible for and my suggestions for transitioning it. After you’ve had some time to review it, we can sit down and go over the best course of action.”

        1. Bluebell*

          Yes – this – the more transition materials you give, hopefully the calmer she will be. This really helped when I departed my last job, with 2.5 months notice. Good luck!

    5. MonteCristo85*

      I wasn’t afraid of my boss acting crazy or anything when I gave my notice, but what I do is I go give notice in person, with a typed official version of my notice in hand. So when you are ready for the conversation to be over, either because it has naturally come to that point, or because you just need to walk out, you hand them the letter version and go. I’m pretty sure I also had sort of a transition plan in my notice as well (ie what projects I was working on, where the files and procedures were located etc. So technically if they wanted to walk me out the door that instant they could have.

    6. Natalie*

      Specific suggestion for the conversation: say what you need to say, and then STOP TALKING. She sounds like she may have an intense reaction, and the best thing for you is to avoid getting sucked into trying to reassure her with extensive explanations or promises. Stay focused on what you need to do to wrap up within the next 2 weeks. Practice a few redirecting or deflecting sentences enough times that you once you get the first three words out, the rest of the sentence comes automatically. If you know you are going to feel really anxious, don’t go right from this conversation to an important meeting or anything, plan something like a short walk or a debriefing phone call with a friend so you can let the anxiety move on.

      1. ChimericalOne*

        That’s really good advice. Don’t let yourself get sucked into inappropriate conversational trees. Expect her to blame, cajole, etc., and plan to only redirect, not react.

    7. Beatrice*

      Don’t tell her you’re taking a week for yourself before starting the new job. That’s none of her business. You hereby have permission to lie about that and tell her you’re starting the new job the Monday after your last day. If there are social media or other personal reasons why she might know that’s not true, this is your trigger to start aggressively limiting what information she has via those avenues.

      The hiring freeze is not your problem. The company is able to lift the hiring freeze anytime it wants to, or make exceptions to it – if she has a problem with the hiring freeze, she can talk to her superiors. The department being short staffed is also not your problem. Nor is the probable fact that two weeks’ notice isn’t enough time to solve her problems and figure out what she’s going to do without you. She’s probably screwed, it’s true, but that is not your fault or your problem to solve. Leaving jobs is a normal thing that people do, that normal companies with normal managers handle as part of their normal jobs, with a normal two weeks’ notice. You’re doing all the normal things, and the parts that aren’t normal are hers and the company’s to fix, not you.

      Congrats on the new job, and on taking a week off to detox!

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can’t change her. She’s a monster if she makes a person cry guilting them when they leave.

      Cut your losses. You need a detox week, that’s all I need to know to confirm she’s a beast and you’ve got some Stockholm Syndrome!! *hugs*

    9. Jennifer Juniper*

      Count down the days until you leave. And remember she won’t be your problem anymore.

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        I understand where you’re coming from, but I’d never do that. It’s really unprofessional to leave the rest of your team in the lurch like that, and it ends up feeling crappy. Even if the boss won’t be a reference, she can try to torpedo Anon’s reputation, plus common courtesy says to be the bigger person and have a decent hand-off.

    11. Not So NewReader*

      She made him cry because she would not relent.

      It would be good to know what exactly she said/did that was considered relentless.
      It could be that you will walk right through what the other person thought was difficult. Differences in people, perhaps you would not be fazed by her “relentlessness”.

      Perhaps you can come up with something that would be a preemptive strike. “I have given this long and serious thought, and I will not be changing my mind.” If she babbles on, you can repeat it and add, “I would like us to talk about what is needed for me to make the transition easier for everyone, here’s what I have so far [A, B, C…]. What else would you like, do you want me to do E and F also? I probably have time to finish those two things.”
      Here you have a plan to redirect her conversation.
      Her: “oh this so awful what will we do, blah, blah, blah”
      You: “Yes, I am sad about leaving also. Getting back to E and F, would you like me to take care of that, too?”

      Have a plan of what you want her to know by the time you exit the conversation. Keep circling back to your several talking points that you want to cover.

      Know for yourself how much you will take. If she hammers on you are you ready to walk out today? This is good to figure out BEFORE you start the conversation. I had the worst boss of my life. I went to give notice and I decided before the conversation started, I would work through my notice just because I have to know I tried to be as fair as possible. She tried several angles and because I had thought it through how I wanted to handle my resignation, her attempts did not faze me. And I think because I remained so calm and matter of fact she could see it was pointless and she did not pull any real crappy stunts.

      1. JJ Bittenbinder*

        This is all such excellent advice! I wish I’d had it a few months ago when I left my last job.

    12. Observer*

      You do know that she doesn’t actually have the power to “not relent”? What I mean is that you CAN refuse to JADE (Justify, Argue, Defend, Explain) – You can keep on repeating one or two lines that you have decided on beforehand, like a broken record. And you can even walk out if you need to.

      The worst she can do is tell you to go on the spot. And while very few people can afford to lose two weeks pay, most people can manage that if they know they have another job in the wings. And also, it’s quite possible that your new place would be happy to have you come in earlier that originally planned.

    13. iglwif*

      Congrats on the new position, and also on leaving the toxic office behind!

      I hope you won’t take this the wrong way … but from what you describe, your current boss doesn’t seem like either a lovely person or an amazing boss :( But I also used to work in what became an increasingly toxic office, and there was a lot of bad stuff I didn’t recognize as bad until I was out of there and looking at it from outside. I also have anxiety, and I took waaaaay too long to leave that job because as much as it sucked, it was familiar, I didn’t want to leave my team in the lurch, the resignation conversation was a scary prospect, etc., etc.

      All this to say: I sympathize SO MUCH!!

      You will have to tell your boss you’re resigning, and experience suggests she will probably behave badly. It will probably be super awkward! But you don’t have to participate in the awkward. All you have to do — and I realize it’s not actually easy! — is remain professional, because
      – your boss’s unprofessional reactions are her own, and it is not your job to prevent them
      – you have nothing to lose, right? you’re leaving anyway, and you already have a new job!
      – if she wants to take your leaving as a personal affront, she’s going to have that (unreasonable) reaction no matter what you do, so just … let her
      – other people in the office know what she’s like

      Good luck, and all the best in your awesome new job!

    14. willow*

      Remember that this is a job, you are quitting a job, not breaking up with your boss. People leave jobs all the time. She, as a boss, needs to get a handle on this aspect of work. You owe her nothing.

    15. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Re: being without health insurance for 3 months
      Doesn’t COBRA cover the in-between? Expensive I’m sure but for me would be worth the not worrying about something unforseen.

    16. Anne (with an “e”)*

      I don’t have anything to add to the wonderful advice that others have posted. I just want to send you encouragement and internet “hugs.” Please update about how the resignation goes with your boss.

    17. Batgirl*

      So when I had a similar situation, I made sure to de-centre the needy boss so that it wasn’t possible to misread it as a ‘I am quitting YOU! I reject you personally!’ situation.
      So for example, the letter I handed in was addressed ‘Dear all’ and was cc’d to HR and to the grandboss with my reasons for going (a debatable inclusion as reasons are for reasonable people), and crucially, my official leaving date.
      I threw the boss a bone too. I put in something about being grateful for the opportunity overall and ‘the amazing mentorship of boss’ which is just a cliche but definitely made her less pouty.
      It also kind of took her out of the position of acceptor. Any attempt on her part to negotiate notice period, I met with “I’ve already told HR”
      Letting the grandboss know also made it more of a fait accompli. Lots of times managers who react to people leaving with angst are worried their own boss will consider them poor at retention, but if grandboss already has a cheery letter this is alleviated and it is too late to do anything anyway.

  8. Anon anony*

    Is it bad to eat an apple at your desk? Is it “too loud”? My coworker is at BEC level with me- though I don’t think that she ever really liked me to begin with- and seems annoyed if I eat an apple at my desk. Of course, it’s okay for her to eat carrots, nuts, and other crunchy things….. but the sound of my apple literally drives her away. Any thoughts?

    2. Crivens!*

      Nope, in most workplaces where eating at your desk is okay, this shouldn’t be an issue. She’s going to have to get over her annoyance.

    3. CatCat*

      It’s totally normal to eat an apple. If it’s bugging her, she needs to Use Her Words. I wouldn’t worry about it otherwise.

    4. alphabet soup*

      Eating an apple at your desk seems 100% normal. Especially if your co-worker is eating carrots. What a strange complaint to have.

      1. CC*

        I was about to say! I feel very self-conscious about eating carrots. But honestly a great deal of food is either crunchy, smelly, or otherwise slightly unpleasant for those around you. Most people have learned to deal–the coworker is being unreasonable.

    5. Alice*

      Driving her away sounds like a feature, not a bug….

      I mean, ok, you shouldn’t eat an apple at her ostentatiously, but keep eating the occasional apple.
      Depending on how closely you work (physically and in terms of collaboration), and how she got to BEC stage, you could try and rebuild the relationship. But refraining from eating apples isn’t going to make her non-BEC. So, rebuild or not, but keep eating apples.

      1. JeanB in NC*

        I’m picturing picking up the apple and eating very slowly with loud crunching all while maintaining full eye contact with the coworker.

    6. Karen from Finance*

      It’s perfectly normal. BUT if you want to be less noisy, you can bring a small knife (even a plastic knife) and cut out little pieces of apple as you eat instead of biting right into it? I do this already because I have sensitive teeth. I don’t think you need to, though, only if you decide you really care about your coworker’s pet peeve.

    7. Dollis Hill*

      Totally reasonable to eat apples at your desk, especially since she’s eating crunchy foods too.

      Sidenote – can someone explain what “BEC” is please?

      1. Pebbles*

        “Bitch Eating Crackers”

        It’s the stage someone gets to when every.single.thing someone else does annoys them…like breathing.

          1. Gumby*

            I have to consciously translate it in my head on this site because in my work-life it is much more likely to be Bose-Einstein Condensate which puts a much different spin on things!

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        “Look at that B over there, eating crackers like she owns the place!”

      3. AnotherKate*

        It’s short for “B**h eating crackers” and comes from an internet meme about how sometimes if you don’t like someone eventually they could just be having a snack and you’d be like, “look at that B, eating crackers like she owns the place.”

        It’s also a common acronym for bacon-egg-and-cheese, so. Context is everything.

        1. LisaL*

          Thanks for explaining the acronym. Apparently I live under a rock bc I’ve never seen the meme. Going to look it up now!

    9. Antilles*

      1.) An apple seems completely reasonable.
      2.) Even if not, your coworker lost the right to complain when she ate a bunch of crunchy things. An apple is quieter than crunching carrots and certainly quieter than nuts.

    10. Anna Canuck*

      Her problem, not your problem. Headphones were made for this if an apple being eaten truly offends her.

    11. Aggretsuko*

      I’ve been there. It’s not worth the drama it will cause to eat the apple if you are someone’s BEA.

    12. Janet*

      I don’t entirely agree with a lot of the other commenters on this. In a small, quiet office, apples, celery and carrots are the loudest possible food options. I had a former colleague who ate a bag of celery every day. Even though he was the nicest man in the world, I was just climbing the walls after months of this. We all eat at our desks where I work, but a lot of my colleagues seem to have sort of quietly decided to avoid those three options for the most part, although no one has talked openly about it. Or many of us will walk away with our loudest food and read a document in the lunch area for a couple of minutes, or in seating away from the main desks, until we’re done. It isn’t required, nor something anyone would ask anyone else to do, but there’s just a basic sensitivity about unusually loud crunching noises in a very quiet space. It feels thoughtful to me — not required, or mandatory, but just a collegial thing to do.

      1. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

        The thing is though, that different minor things annoy different people and I don’t think it’s reasonable to be expected to not do anything that makes a noise above a certain decibel (or to remember that Jane doesn’t mind if I eat celery, but it really bothers Joe). Unless it’s something that’s really loud and is going to distract me from doing my work, it’s my responsibility to deal with any extraneous noises.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Eating that much celery just made me clinch a bit. It sounds like living in rabbit hutch without the bunnies to cuddle :'(

      3. Dust Bunny*

        My coworker, who is a really nice person whom I genuinely like, ate the loudest apple in the entire world at her desk yesterday. Yes, food can be too noisy. (We have a break area where food can be eaten, so we don’t need to eat at our desks, although we can.)

        But in this case, it has to go both ways: Either both of you can eat crunchy foods or neither of you can. I think the real issue is that she’s doing the same thing.

      4. JJ Bittenbinder*

        Yeah, I kind of see your point. I used to have a coworker who ate baby carrots every day and she crunched SO LOUDLY that I would quite literally be in tears of frustration. We weren’t supposed to wear headphones and I couldn’t always go somewhere for the 30 minutes it took her (she would eat at a very leisurely pace, while doing other things, so it was very unpredictable how long it would last) and it was the worst.

        It does sound, however, like OP is trying to be quiet, which my coworker never did. Plus OP’s coworker loses the right to side-eye if she herself eats lots of crunchy foods.

        1. Autumnheart*

          I recently started just eating my baby carrots in the car on the way to work. That solved both the coworker-annoying factor, and the recurring issue of eating everything in my lunch except the carrots. Probably be a good solution for apples too, if I sliced them first.

      5. OhBehave*

        Yeah. There’s eating an apple and EA(crunch)TI(slurp)NG an apple. How do you know she’s at BEC stage? Ask her about it the next time she seems peeved. “I’m sorry that my eating an apple bugs you. I thought it was OK because you eat crunchy stuff too. I’ll try to be quieter.”

    13. Ellie*

      I can’t handle the noise of people eating, but you know what I do when I’m at work? I deal with it, because that’s what you do in shared spaces!! Make sure to get apples that are huge, like honeycrisp, and go to town.

    14. Anonymous Educator*

      Maybe your co-worker has misophonia, and the apple-eating sound is a trigger for her.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        But that’s not on Anon anony to manage. Apples are a normal, common food.

        Shrug it off, Anon anony – she’s managing whatever reaction she has, by leaving. Don’t guess at her level of offended. Eating an apple is normal, and if someone needs you to stop doing a normal thing because of their discomfort, they need to ask you directly for a change, so that you can evaluate what you want to do about it based on words, not guesses.

      2. Ltrim Press Club*

        This is true for me. Apples are a huge trigger. If I don’t have headphones available, I get up and leave for a few minutes to take care of other errands. It’s not the crunching so much as tearing the Apple away as another poster mentioned.

        Someone in my workspace eats an apple every day for lunch. That’s great! Not sure I would ever feel like saying anything to the coworker as I eat food too. Another lady has chips and really crinkly bags that make a ton of noise, but that bothers me less.

        Apples are the issue and will cause me to tense up so much that I start to become manic and want to shut down (scream, cry, flee, get GET OUT). Yes, all because of an apple. Once my spouse decided to eat an apple while in the vehicle and couldn’t understand why I needed to stop and get out. To some people, including me, it’s THAT significant. I didn’t ask for this, I don’t want it, but it’s really that impactful.

        But back to work – This is why I need and use headphones. With them- no issues at all!

    15. Mediamaven*

      I think it’s totally fine but I actually get where she is coming from – the sound of someone biting into an apple actually bothers me tremendously and I don’t know why. It’s like nails on a chalkboard. But it’s not fair to expect people to acclimate to that.

    16. LCL*

      Apples are the worst to listen to someone chomp through. The worst! It’s not the crunching, it’s the indescribeable noise of biting into then ripping a piece away. I think because one’s mouth has to be partly open to eat them this way so the sound projects. Same reason someone eating a carrot slice or whole baby carrot is fine, but chomping on it like Bugs Bunny is annoying. If you wanted to be courteous, just cut slices off and it eat that way, that negates most of the noise. You are right that she has little standing to complain because she is sitting there eating crunchy things too. But the noise of someone going through an apple is much worse than the eating sounds produced by most other things.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I keep one of those apple slicers in my desk drawer so I can quickly and easily cut my apple into wedges which makes them easier (and I think quieter) to eat.

      2. Parenthetically*

        I reeeeeally agree with this, and bringing a knife or an apple slicer and eating the pieces was my first thought!

      3. Dust Bunny*

        The slurp.

        Mouth noises are often worse than food noises. My former supervisor would bring breakfast tacos every morning and she sounded like a horse when she ate. I could hear her two offices away.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        Exactly. You are doing a reasonable thing (eating a normal food). She is doing a reasonable thing (walking away from something that bugs her).

        This sounds like everything is working out the way it’s supposed to.

      2. Cherry Sours*

        Dang you, just spewed hot chocolate and mini marshmallows onto my phone. oh well, the laugh made it al worth while!

    18. Susan K*

      I don’t see a problem with eating an apple at your desk. If you are constantly eating crunchy things all day long, yeah, that might be kind of rude, but how long does it take to eat an apple? People can deal with that for a few minutes.

    19. Muriel Heslop*

      Listening to someone eating an apple everyday would make me nuts. I hate chewing sounds! Maybe you could slice your apple as a compromise? That’s not nearly as loud. And your coworker should be demonstrating the same care as you are – she needs to drop the carrots!

      Good luck!

      1. Jennifer Juniper*

        After reading this thread, I’m so glad I have mild hearing loss! Such things wouldn’t bother me at all.
        Now, listening to Fran Drescher, on the other hand….

    20. Autumnheart*

      I would say that it’s normal to both eat loud crunchy things, and be annoyed by said crunch.

      I think my coworkers in the immediate vicinity like me well enough, but I still feel self-conscious if I’m eating loud crunchy things day after day. I’ve taken to eating them in the break room, or even in the car. If it’s an occasional thing, I don’t feel nearly as bad.

    22. Mel*

      I snack on apples throughout the day, and regularly worry about if it could be annoying to nearby colleagues. I have started using an apple slicer, as I figure it’s quieter to eat slices than chomping into a whole apple.

    24. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m fascinated by this entire discussion. I’m more irritated by foods I know are likely to generate crumbs. I’ve had to work at computers where the previous user ate at the desk and tipping that keyboard out was gross. I’ve worked in midtown Manhattan in a ~60yo building over a restaurant that had a mouse problem. I’ve worked in a drought area where ants were desperate and coming into buildings in droves.
      So food crumbs and unemptied wastebaskets worry me.

    25. Cartographical*

      I have misophonia (a facet of an auditory processing disorder I’ve had since childhood) and the stress of other people making noises that tweak my nerves often leads them to think I don’t like them. I do! But managing my responses can make me seem flat or cold and I can get tired/cranky quickly around some people through no fault of theirs. I 100% accept that people make noises and I don’t really want any accommodation because the issues are so complex (being congested or tired changes my trigger profile) that no one should be expected to try to manage it but me.

      I would absolutely leave my desk or go to a different room if someone was doing something short term (like apple eating) that was a high-impact noise for me. I do it when my partner is eating oatmeal or soup (spoon scraping on bowl = internal screaming).

      I don’t know if this is your co-worker’s problem but it’s certainly not yours. It’s not personal and I’d just keep to your life as you’d normally live it. If you were closer, I’d suggest giving her a heads-up or eating your apple when she’s at the photocopier or in a meeting but until/unless you have a connection with her enough to discuss it, I’d just let her manage herself and enjoy your noms, guilt-free. Personally, the last thing I want is to drag the people around me into this auditory minefield. I actually feel better knowing that the effort I put into managing myself allows others to carry on normally.

  9. PM TM*

    Dear Alison,

    I started a new job about 2.5 years ago. It was a competitive process and a lot of egos (of people who are quite influential in this field) got hurt along the way but in the end they decided I was the best fit for the job.

    One of my main duties in this job was to complete a project my predecessor pitched. To be honest it was an ill-thought-out project and had it been up to me should never have been given this go ahead. In fact, as soon as he saw what a mess it was going to be, my predecessor quit.

    As I said, there was a lot of competition for this role, and one of the reasons I got this job was that I promised to carry out this project and that I had the ability to do it well.

    Well, it’s been one roadblock after another. It turns out that a lot of the things my predecessor put in the project proposal was either wildly exaggerated or just plain wrong. All the people he said would collaborate with us have refused to do so bit cause they were not actually formally consulted beforehand.

    Now there’s only a little over a week to the deadline. I’ve asked for an extension but there’s still no clear plan in place. Those people whose egos were hurt have come back out of the woodwork to gloat about how much better they could’ve done this.

    No one is happy and a lot of people are calling for the whole project to be cancelled, but that would be a betrayal as this was the main platform on which I got this job.

    There have been other issues during this time as well, but this is the most urgent one that has to be dealt with. What would you advise in such a situation?

    1. laura*

      Cancelling a terrible, badly thought out project is not a betrayal…it’s making a good decision.

      1. MsM*

        Exactly. Sunk cost fallacy. Present what you’ve discovered in the time between your interview and actually trying to implement this mess, and lay out what you would need to complete this. If those requirements aren’t compatible with reality, then acknowledge that reality. And if one of the backseat drivers wants to take it on anyway, let them have it.

        1. Weekday Warrior*

          Your advice is still great and just common sense. Too bad it won’t be heeded where it could really help.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Ah. You know what? It’s still the practical answer.

          Just watched Fyre, the business variation of “We have no actual workable plan–but we sold people on having a secret plan that just needed minor details ironed out. So let’s charge ahead and someone will solve it all and reveal a great secret plan if we just act confident” that plays out so often in governing contexts.

          1. JJ Bittenbinder*

            As an aside, for a very long time I read that as Frye, not Fyre, and thought that the boot company was putting on a festival.

    2. Mrs. Badcrumble*

      Just hold the second referendum already. (I can’t stop giggling at this letter, it’s brilliant.)

    3. she was a fast machine*

      Dear Prime Minister Theresa May,

      For the love of god, hold a second referendum before the entire world loathes your guts more than they already do..

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          It’s called ‘check with the stakeholders and revise or discard the project per their new direction’

      2. Flash Bristow*

        please! I voted remain, only one person I know voted for – and he’s the kind of person who makes racist or leery remarks. not at *you* tho, obviously *you’re* different, but everyone else, yeah?

        Another referendum, PLEASE. This time remainers who didn’t vote before will be sure to, my younger friends who weren’t old enough before will vote remain, and some brexiteers have changed their views.

        If we get a “leave” result again I’ll believe it. It was SO close last time and I don’t think anyone believed we’d seriously go leave.

        Argh, I hate it.

    4. Sammie*

      I totally did not get this until I saw the other comments. I LOVE this (I’m Irish so, yeah…) Well played.

    5. Ama*

      Can I just say I really love the idea of Alison solving all the world’s political problems solely through the lens of workplace advice.

      2. TechWorker*

        Loool agreed. My response (despite being British I did not get it immediately ;)) was ‘how the hell have you got to 2.5 years and you’re only raising it a week before the deadline’ ?

        Knowing it’s about Brexit this is still basically my response…

    8. Lobsterman*

      It’s been 2.5 years; that’s long enough that you can plausibly claim that circumstances have changed.

    9. MaryHS*

      Hardest part on this Dr. Who fan is that she looks like Harriet Jones.
      “Don’t think she looks tired?”

  10. alphabet soup*

    TLDR: What do I say when asked why I’m looking for a new job?

    Long version: A recruiter from a very well-known, well-respected company reached out to me about a position that aligns really well with my long-term goals (let’s say… project management for a teapot production team). I have a call scheduled for next week to talk about the role. Very excited!

    However, I’m struggling with what to say when asked why I’m currently looking for a new position. I’ve been at my current position for a little less than 2 years. I took my current position because I was told I was going to be doing very similar work—project management and writing/design for a teapot production team. However, that’s not what the role has turned out to be. It’s been mostly administrative work with a tiny bit of writing/design. Since I started, business goals have shifted so that the company is not very interested in producing teapots anymore, and has moved on to different products (which I’m not that interested in).

    So, my concern is if I explain this situation to new company, it’ll seem like I’m complaining about my current company (which I know you’re not supposed to do). I’m also concerned with making it seem like I don’t have what it takes to get teapot production up and running, which I think is going to be important to new company.
    Am I overthinking this? How do I explain (what feels like) failing to do what I was hired to do at current company? How do I show that I’d be better able to handle this at new company?

    1. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I recently went through this process and start my new job in two weeks! My reason was growth potential. Due to the nature of my old team, there wasn’t really a way for me to break out of my current role so that was easy to leverage into an explanation for job hunting. It’s a pretty all-encompassing description and it sounds like it could fit you, too – your current job has taken a turn in a direction that’s not a good fit for you so you’re looking to grow and develop elsewhere.

      1. alphabet soup*

        That’s really helpful language to use, and true! I am looking for growth that’s not possible in my current role anymore.

        Congrats on your new job!

        1. JJ Bittenbinder*

          “I am looking for growth that’s not possible in my current role anymore.

          That’s perfect.

    2. ThatGirl*

      “The role turned out to be a different kind of work than originally described, and I’m more interested in the writing/design than the administrative aspect.” Don’t overthink it. :)

      1. alphabet soup*

        That’s very excellent, simple language and very reassuring.

        I’m just super nervous due to the (very good) reputation of the company.

        Thanks for the reassurance!

        1. ThatGirl*

          Even the best companies have roles that change sometimes, and you’re not a bad person or bad employee for wanting to do the job as originally advertised. You’re also allowed to change your mind and say “I thought I was more interested in X, but it turns out I’d rather do Y” for the flip side of this. It’s all very normal and understandable. :) Good luck!

    3. Lily Rowan*

      If the recruiter reached out to you, you don’t have to explain much — you can say you’re not actively on the market, but are excited enough about the possibilities of this other position to consider it. Even if you’re ready to run screaming, if they came to you, they don’t need to know that!

        1. Lily Rowan*

          It really starts you off in such a strong position that you should try to hang on to as long as possible! “I’d barely consider thinking about the position you have to offer!”

      2. naptime*

        Yes, this is exactly what I said in a similar situation. It’s really the perfect answer.

    4. Natalie*

      So, my concern is if I explain this situation to new company, it’ll seem like I’m complaining about my current company (which I know you’re not supposed to do)

      The general advice is not to bash or badmouth your current company, not “never say anything with even the mildest possible hint of criticism in it”. If you think about it, by this interpretation even the stalwart “looking for new opportunities” would count as complaining since you’re implying opportunity doesn’t exist at your current firm.

      As long as your delivery is factual and more or less unemotional, and you don’t dwell on what’s wrong with your current position, it’s perfectly fine to say that the position has changed significantly from what you were hired to do.

      1. lulu*

        Exactly. You have a very good, objective reason to look for a job, just explain it as you did here and don’t overthink it.

      2. alphabet soup*

        That’s a really good perspective on that advice. I think part of the reason I’m overthinking it is that I am, internally, very disappointed about how my current role has turned out, so I’m very self-conscious about letting that emotion slip out.

        1. Natalie*

          I totally get that! I had a similar experience the last time I was interviewing. If a little disappointment creeps into your voice I really doubt it would be a problem – your interviewers are presumably humans who have had disappointing jobs before. It’s more about coming across as tactful or politic (in the noun sense of the word).

          Also I found it helpful to practice a little bit, just so I had a skeleton of what I as going to say and didn’t ramble.

    5. wittyrepartee*

      They reached out to you! You say: “oh, I’m happy with my job, but this job seems like it has amazing growth potential- so when you reached out to me with it I couldn’t say no!”

  11. Toxic Waste*

    The past couple of phone interviews that I’ve had, they’ve asked *when* I’m looking to leave my current position. I’m in a toxic job, but I can’t blurt out, “Right now!”

    Should I say something about giving a 2 week notice at my current position? I’m not sure how to word it. Any thoughts/suggestions?

    1. Spreadsheets and Books*

      I had a few phone interviews ask me this recently. My response was always “as soon as necessary; I don’t have any upcoming obligations that would stop me from giving notice.”

    2. Less Bread More Taxes*

      That’s what I’ve always done! “I need to give two weeks notice to my employer, and ideally I’d have a few days to think about an offer before accepting, so two and half to three weeks from the offer date works for me!”

    3. Murphy*

      Haha, I hear you.

      I think they’re just asking about a possible start date in case there are any vacations, big work events, etc. I think a standard “I’d be prepared to start a new position 2 weeks after receiving a written offer.”

    4. irene adler*

      You should indicate that you’ll need to provide Current Job with a 2 week notice. That’s being fair and professional to Current Job and shows that you are being considerate. New Job will appreciate that.

      If you indicate that you can start today (i.e. without any notice to Current Job), then New Job will wonder if that’s what you will do to them should you ever leave.

    5. Sammie*

      I’ve been saying ‘I need to give two weeks notice, of course, but other than that I am ready to move.’ I take the attitude that maybe they’re asking if you’re finishing up anything so important at your current work that you would have to have a longer notice period (or perhaps your work/industry has a longer notice period as standard).

      Even if you think you might not need the two weeks, it might be good – if you can afford it – to take some time to yourself, especially because the place you are now is toxic. Decompression is important. IMO future employers shouldn’t be pushing you too hard to start sooner than two weeks. You could maybe say something along the lines of ‘this company doesn’t always make people work the full two weeks, so there might be some wiggle room on when I’m available to start at a new place’ but I’d start with the idea that you’d be giving this very standard notice period.

      I hope that helps/makes sense – I’m only part the way through my morning coffee…

    6. A CAD Monkey*

      When that comes up just say, “I will need to give a “X”-week notice to my current employer upon acceptance of an offer.” The “X” being 2 weeks + time to recover/recenter yourself from the toxic environment. That’s what I was doing up until the day I just decided the toxicity wasn’t worth the pay and turned in my letter of resignation.

    7. CupcakeCounter*

      Going through this now.
      I’ve been saying I want to give at least the standard 2 weeks notice but depending on when the offer comes in and is finalized that it could be a little longer because of the cyclical nature of my work (corporate accounting with high involvement in month end close) I wouldn’t want to leave or start a new position during the month end close. I provide a bit more detail as to why and have gotten really positive responses along the lines of “oh that makes a lot of sense” or “I hadn’t thought of the timing on that”.
      You could also indicate after your 2 weeks comment that your current employer/manager has a history of not allowing people to work during their notice period so depending on how that goes you may be available a week or so earlier.

    8. JOdiRoady*

      The recruiter is just making sure you are ready to go in a normal time frame of 2-3 weeks. It’s to make sure they don’t follow through the process with someone who is waiting to finish their Masters Degree, waiting for their end of year bonus, or anything else that would push the start date months down the road.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        What about waiting for a month end bonus? I have an interview Wednesday (the first in-person – not sure if there will be a second one required), but when the HR rep I spoke to asked when I would be available to start, I told her after April 15 because I have a project shipping that week I can’t bail on. She said that sounds good and would probably be around the time an offer would be made to the successful candidate anyway – good, right? Well, I forgot that I get my quarterly commission bonus at the end of April. If I leave in the third week of the month, it’s unlikely they’ll pay out my bonus. If they bring up my availability on Wednesday, do you think they’d care if I asked to start the second full week of May? I really want to put in my notice (should an offer be extended and I accept of course) on the 29th so the check will already be cut and sent to my bank for deposit, lol.

        1. A Reader*

          I think you could say that, but be prepared for the company to decline to offer a job. By saying you’re now not available until the second full week of May (which I am assuming means May 13-17), you’re delaying your start day by about one month. And they may ask why there is a delay, too, so be prepared for that question.

    9. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      They might be asking if they have a longer time frame in mind for the hiring process and they want to make sure that you aren’t expecting to start in the usual 2-4 week timeframe. They don’t want to go forward with the process if you are likely to withdraw because it’s taking too long. For example, they know they don’t want a new employee to start until the beginning of a new budget year and that’s still 3+ months away. Years ago I interviewed at a place like that and I finally had to withdraw my application after the third round interview because it was going on 4 months and I needed to move on.

  12. bassclefchick*

    I’m looking for part time work, but have realized retail is no longer an option for me. Any suggestions on where to find part time, work from home, data entry type jobs? Thanks!

      1. bassclefchick*

        I have a full time job, so I don’t think a temp agency would help me. I’m looking for a 2nd job to supplement my income. Sorry I wasn’t clear. Thanks!

        1. HeyNonny*

          I would still look at temp agencies. I used one as a student with a strict schedule and they found a couple of evening things for me.

    2. wandering_beagle*

      Have you ever looked at Upwork? They’re a website for people who want to do (mostly) smaller, remote jobs. I don’t know how hard it is to break into, though.

      1. Hold My Cosmo*

        Upwork is consistently turning away applicants now, even established writers with plenty of clips and bylines. Freelancers are up in arms about it. Either they are saturated, or there’s shenanigans going down behind the scenes.

        1. wandering_beagle*

          It’s not just for writers, it has all kinds of remote office work. Data entry, project management, transcription, etc. But, like Hold My Cosmo says, it sounds like they’re turning away applicants, so probably not an option.

    3. Emily S.*

      I’ve heard great things about a site called FlexJobs, but I think there’s a fee for it.

    4. bassclefchick*

      I should point out that I’m looking for a 2nd job. LOVE my day job, just need some extra money. I don’t have the funds/desire to go back to school for something like medical transcription.

      Thanks, everyone!

    5. bassclefchick*

      I should clarify that I’m looking for a 2nd job. LOVE my day job, just need to make some extra money. I have no desire/funds to go to school for something like medical transcription.

    6. anonny*

      Measurement Incorporated is a part-time, seasonal test scoring company. I work for them in the evenings every summer from home. There are some states that are excluded, so check their list.

    7. Snow*

      rev.com is from home work , transcription so like data entry – it pays per minute so only works out if you’re a fast typist but is fairly easy to do.

    8. My Brain is Exploding*

      We have known a number of people who did part time gigs at car rental agencies.

    9. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      If you like to work out, I’d recommend community fitness centers. I’ve worked at them in the past and they’re a bit of a disorganized mess for a full-time career, but they’re usually shorthanded and if you’re a grown up who shows up when you say you will and does the bare minimum, you get pretty good freedom of scheduling. Plus you get a free membership, which if you’re paying for one already is a good savings.

  13. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    Thank you to everyone who commented on my post several weeks ago! My boss, Leo, has since met twice with Susan to discuss the mistakes she’s been making and the steps she needs to take to prevent mistakes in the future. I spoke privately with my co-worker Janie to establish that we should no longer correct Susan’s mistakes during our “double-check” but email her what needs to be fixed and copy Leo. Fingers crossed going forward.

    In other news, I had my quarterly review last week, and Leo asked where I see my career progressing in the department. I said I had planned to apply for AJ’s assistant’s position when she retires in a few years. Leo said that would be a lateral move and asked how I would feel about taking over for him when he retires around the same time as AJ’s assistant. I said I would be open to it but would want to have a more in-depth discussion about what that would entail, as a couple of my co-workers have seniority and would not take my promotion well. Leo understood and said he was mentioning it now so I could start thinking about it and he could come up with a transition plan.

    I have worked in an (administrative) assistant capacity my entire career. This promotion would make me a first-time manager. Any book or article recommendations for me possibly taking that leap? Questions I should bring up in my next conversation with Leo? I am most concerned about my co-workers’ reactions, as well as my work-life balance changing. (I currently have a very flexible schedule that lets me leave early for doctor’s appointments and errands; as a manager, I would feel pressure not to do that.)

    Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. AliceBD*

      I don’t have any work advice, being in the earlier part of my career, but I love your username!

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      Hello Sydney Ellen Wade from Virginia! Like AliceBD, I don’t have advice, but wanted to comment on your awesome username.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Well, doesn’t Alison’s book have some recommendations for new managers? I would *definitely* go back and look at letters in the ‘advice about your boss’ and ‘advice about your coworkers’ categories, I suspect the _Ask A Manager_ book is mainly a distillation of those.

      Flex schedule – you may want to limit errands, but going to drs appts signals to your employees that it’s really ok, that you are more focused on work output than on ‘butts in seats’. You might ask Leo about how he measures work output, if others on the team have different tasks. Also ask Leo where he thinks you’d need to grow / learn, and if there’s management classes or seminars through the company.

      But the current job holder knows your work and thinks you would do his job well, that’s *huge*. Co-workers may not even *want* the position (I did NOT want my team lead’s), and if you have a couple of years to train up, they’ll have lots of time to get used to the idea.

      1. SherBert*

        Like you, I didn’t want the boss’s position when she left. People seemed surprised when I wasn’t named as the next Boss Lady. I was equally surprised they thought I wanted it. I didn’t go into detail with them but my reasons were: I have been a manager and didn’t particularly enjoy it and there was no pay raise for me since I am at the high end of the scale… so… why would i want it?!?!

    4. Samsoo*

      I went from admin to management mostly based on my ability to work well with people. As you’ve noted, the work-life balance is often less balanced when you’re in management, but I would say that if you’re interested in Leo’s position, you should definitely consider it.
      I am a fan of From the Trailer Park to the Corner Office for just a general good read on stepping up. David Novak is a great leader and you can learn some style stuff from his book.
      I don’t think it hurts to candidly discuss your concern about your co-workers’ potential reactions.
      In my first management gig, I was brought in from the outside to a company where long tenure was very normal. I had to make some in-roads with people who had been there for decades and were on my team. But I think that all goes back to style… see above book rec.
      I’m sure others have other book recommendations, such as Ken Blanchard’s books, which are more specific, but for general leadership guidance, I really like the one I mentioned (three times now!) Good luck whatever you decide

    5. Lazy Susan*

      Ask Leo about stretch assignments, where you’d start working on/contributing to his projects/work now, rather than when he is gone. This will give you time to ascertain what the job requires, as well as give you time to try/be advised by Leo.

    6. Auntie Social*

      I would tell Leo that I really admire his light touch in managing people, and ask him how he does it. The best managers, IMO, are ones who tweak, fine tune, etc. Start the conversation by talking about Susan The Mess, and go from there.

    7. JJ Bittenbinder*

      Some books I found helpful (in no partuclar order):

      The First 90 Days, by Michael Watkins. Amazon has a package deal with this and an HBR article of “How Managers Become Leaders” that looks good.

      The 5 Dysfunctions of a Team, By Patrick Lencioni. Quick read.

      The Speed of Trust, by Steven Covey. Same guy who wrote The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

      Emotional Intelligence 2.0, by Travis Bradbury. I feel like EI is kind of a buzzword, but is still highly important (as many letters to AAM will show!)

      The One Minute Manager, by Ken Blanchard and Spencer Johnson. (There’s an updated version, but I can’t vouch for it. Amazon reviews are very positive, though).

      Servant Leadership in Action, by Ken Blanchard and Renee Broadwell.

      I like to read. :)

    8. MaryHS*

      A few years ago my manager retired. My company asked if I was interested, and I said absolutely not. So did another co-worker. The third did want it. She came to both of us individually to make sure wed not have trouble working for someone more junior. We reassured her….She’s interested in people management and we are not.
      Good luck whatever you decide!

  14. Crivens!*

    Quick question about asking for a title change:

    I don’t plan to do this soon because I’m coming towards the end of my first year, but I’m still curious. Right now I’m a “coordinator”. I don’t think that accurately describes what I do, as I am essentially in charge of my department of 1. I report back to my supervisor and to one other person about final budget items, but I make the decisions for the department as it is, I create the budgets and schedules, and I do the work. I’m not even unhappy with my title, I just know it’s not accurate to what I’m doing and that it won’t serve me well to have a title lower than what I’m actually doing in the future.

    What are titles above “coordinator” that might apply to this?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Hey, no advice just commenting to see what comes up. I’m also a coordinator in a department of one where I do all the work.

    2. Silver Radicand*

      As you don’t manage or supervise anyone else, supervisor or manager doesn’t make sense. Maybe project manager? Other common titles might be specialist or generalist. Maybe senior coordinator might make sense as the title. Without knowing what exactly you do to know if there are any department specific titles (such as controller, etc.) that might make more sense, I’m not sure exactly what else would apply.

    3. Silver Radicand*

      Possibly project manager or some variation of that, as that title doesn’t necessarily imply managing other employees?

      1. JOdiRoady*

        I was also thinking this…some companies have a set title structure. Clerk- Coordinator- Specialist- Manager…so the title doesn’t really reflect the work, it is a means of differentiating pay scales.

    5. WakeUp!*

      How is this not a coordinator? It sounds like you *coordinate* all the activities in your department.

    6. SadMidwesterner*

      I just asked for my title to be changed from Coordinator to Manager, and I’m right at the one year mark! So it might not be too soon. I felt like I delegate tasks to the other coordinator the vast majority of the time (which he also agreed with) rather than collabing and manage all strategies, and with the addition of an intern I supervise I felt like my title was no longer accurate.

    8. Ama*

      So at my employer, we would use “manager” to describe what you do (it actually sounds very similar to what my role was a few years ago when my department head left and they split her responsibilities between me and my new boss). But my org also has a distinction between “manager” (a step above coordinator, with more *project* management/financial responsibilities) and “senior manager” (manger duties plus management of other staff), where at many places manager is just for those who manage people. It might be worth looking at how coworkers who do things kind of similar to what you do are described even if they are in other departments.

    9. overeducated*

      I’m a little confused by this question and curious what you think someone who is “really a coordinator” does.

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Just my personal read (I’m sure this is highly industry-dependent).

        I think of a coordinator more as the person who does the leg work (“coordinates”) at the behest of someone else rather than as someone who actually makes the decisions (or at least high level, directive decisions).

        Again, I’m sure this is very much dependent on industry. So no offense meant to anyone in industries I’m not as familiar with – from what I understand this might be pretty different in the non-profit world. In my industry though, the only time you would really see a coordinator title would be in a junior (possibly even entry level) HR role or maaaayyybbeee a department specific role that will most likely be responsible for a combo of administrative tasks and some junior level dept. specific tasks. While unlikely, it would be possible for a firm to end up with a junior level employee with a coordinator title as the only employee devoted to that dept. EG: if the COO handles to the HR functions, and manages it fairly well but decided to bring on someone junior just to assist with with the day-to-day of those functions rather than an experienced HR professional to take them on fully. If the coordinator excelled in the role and ended up taking nearly all of the work off of the COO’s hands I could see the thinking the Coordinator title no longer being appropriate.

    10. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      What are the titles of those above you in the hierarchy — if the person who you report to is a manager, you might ask to be an assistant or associate manager or “specialist” if that title exists in your organization. If the person above you is a director, you could be a manager or assistant/associate director. Manager is a pretty nebulous term; it can mean “manages people” or “manages projects” or “manages operations” like in the title Office Manager who may or may not have any direct reports.

    12. WellRed*

      My tiny company has multiple 1-person departments. Almost all of them call themselves “director of department.” Which makes me roll my eyes. What is it you think a coordinator does? Maybe that will help you?

      1. knitter*

        In my first post-grad school job, I was the director of a department of one. They still do this…I’m pretty sure it is partly to mask how inexperienced all the staff is (because there is such high turnover)

      2. Steggy Saurus*

        What’s really great is when all those “managers” get to be on the “management committee” and then you’ve got a 50-person organization with a 30-person management committee!

    13. Come On Eileen*

      My title used to be “communications coordinator” because I coordinated communications from our company out to clients. When I moved to a new company doing much the same role, I found they called this a “communications manager.” I don’t manage people, but I do manage projects, and I feel like it’s an elevated title that more accurately reflects what I do.

    14. AnonResearchManager*

      How is your role different from that of a coordinator (or other coordinators at your company)? The duties described sound like coordinator tasks, but maybe they could also be called administrator alternatively? Perhaps, for example Marketing Administrator or Accounting Administrator rather than coordinator.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, I think the Administrator title makes sense mainly because that’s what my current company calls people who do what OP does.

    15. Polymer Phil*

      Is “coordinator” a thing now? I was super-disappointed to find that it isn’t a synonym for “manager” when I interviewed for a “lab coordinator” job. I was hoping for an increase in my level of responsibility, but it quickly became clear that they were really looking for someone more like an admin assistant.

    16. all the news that's fit*

      We’re typically paid for the responsibilities in our job description, NOT for our job title. Your compensation team determines your pay based on comparable industry experience and job duties, regardless of the title.

  15. ThreeStars*

    If you can’t think of an answer to a “tell me about a time when…” type question during an interview, is it okay to e-mail the interviewer an answer later?

    I’m wondering because when I couldn’t immediately think of an answer to a situational question in an interview last Friday, they told me we could come back to the question. The question didn’t come up again, but I thought of an answer on the drive home and I e-mailed one of my interviewers the example. They didn’t respond at all, and they never e-mailed me information about the job that they promised to send me after the interview. I’m feeling like I may have made myself look bad by e-mailing them an answer. (If it’s not that, then I guess they weren’t super interested in me as a candidate anymore for other reasons.)

    1. fposte*

      I don’t think it was likely to have hurt you to email it later; it’s just that it may not help you all that much, either. I think that that wasn’t the factor here and that you just got beat by somebody else. Sorry.

      1. ThreeStars*

        Yeah, I probably wouldn’t do this again unless I thought of something super compelling. Time to move on mentally from the job. :)

    2. Kathenus*

      I can only speak for me, but I don’t think at all that you’d make yourself look bad by emailing the answer to the question. I don’t think you had to do so, but having been on both sides of this – both providing some additional information in a follow up email after an interview and getting this as a hiring manager – I’ve never viewed it as negative, for me it was neutral to positive. So don’t worry! I don’t think it was a problem at all, and could be seen positively as you closing the loop on that question. Good luck!

      1. ThreeStars*

        They stressed in the interview that they needed the person who was hired to be able to keep track of many ongoing things and make sure they were taken care of since stuff was getting forgotten and slipping through the cracks. I thought in this case following up with an answer might help show how I make sure to “close the loop” and don’t let things get forgotten. :)

    3. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      I think you can add it into a thank-you email, but I wouldn’t send it as a stand-alone message.

      1. ThreeStars*

        I don’t send thank-you e-mails anymore (the last time I was job hunting the only time I got an offer was after the interview where I didn’t send one so it doesn’t seem worth the effort). I can see what you mean about how it would have made more sense with a thank you e-mail though. Thanking them for their time and reinforcing my interest probably would have made my follow-up e-mail about the forgotten question sound better.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Thank you emails are still a good idea even if you don’t get anything out of it immediately because you never know if it could help you later. Plus, it’s just good to get in the habit of thanking people for their time.

        2. MaryHS*

          Conversely I once got a job because I was the only one of their top three who DID send a thank-you note.

    4. Shark Whisperer*

      I have done a similar thing twice and gotten the jobs both times. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but I think you can do it if you frame right. For my current job, they asked me about experience in X thing. I gave an answer, but completely forgot about a project I had worked on that directly dealt with X. I remembered on the way home. When I was writing my thank you letter, after all of the normal follow up stuff, I said something along the lines on “On the way home from the interview, I realized I completely left out a project I worked on dealing with X. Since we didn’t get a chance to talk about it, I thought you at least like to see some of the work I did for that.” And then I included a link because it was a public facing document.

      1. ThreeStars*

        Being able to include a link to an actual example of work does sound worthy of a follow-up e-mail. :)

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      If they said they’d come back to it and then didn’t end up doing so, I would just leave it alone. It probably isn’t that important to them for you to have to follow up with an email about it.

      1. ThreeStars*

        Good point that it probably wasn’t an important question if they didn’t come back to it. (They had a list of 25 questions they were skipping around through, so maybe there also just wasn’t time to get back to it.)

    6. Blinded By the Gaslight*

      I have a great response to these types of questions! When they ask you, for instance, “Tell us about a time you and a colleague disagreed about the best way to solve a problem,” and your mind goes blank, do this: say, “Hm, that’s a great question, let me think about that for a moment,” pause to think or take a sip of water, then say, “I’m having a hard time coming up with a specific example, but if faced with a similar situation, I would do X, Y, Z . . . ” and tell them how you WOULD handle that situation. I’ve seen this done, and used it myself, and it’s very effective! It saves you the embarrassment of sitting there in silence, panicking as the seconds tick by because you can’t come up with a slam-dunk example, and it allows you to give an ideal response, show off your ability to strategize or think through a problem, etc.

      1. ThreeStars*

        That’s a great idea! Maybe I could have even asked them to give me an example of the type of situation they had in mind. It’s hard for me to answer vague questions because I’m not quite sure what they’re looking for, but if they gave me a specific example of what they meant I could give a detailed explanation of what I’d hypothetically do. (The question asked for an example of problem solving. I couldn’t think of any elaborate problem solving off-hand since the problems I deal with are usually straight forward.)

        1. Blinded By the Gaslight*

          I do a lot of interviewing, so from my perspective, it’s about listening for the skill/ability they need in a certain situation that is behind the question. So your answer may not need to be elaborate or your example may not need to be about a Big Impressive Project in order to impress them (a mind-trap we all get stuck in!), you just need to demonstrate how you think about and approach certain problems, how you conduct yourself interpersonally, and how you use your skills to get the job done. Using your own hypothetical also gives you some freedom to think through something you may not have experienced yet but do have the skills to tackle.

          Also, you can help yourself a great deal by prepping for the interview by anticipating the kinds of questions they might ask, and jotting down some examples for each type of question in a little notebook that you should take with you to the interview. Most interviews include questions around: problem solving, communication, projects, resolving conflict, diversity, etc. If you listed 2 or 3 examples for each of those topics, when an interview asks you, “Talk us through a project you’ve lead and how you managed it,” you can scan your notebook for the best example you have or say something like, “I haven’t had the opportunity to lead a project, however I worked with a small team on Big Teapot Project, and I was responsible for coordinating XYZ people, communicating the team’s plans with ABC stakeholders, and managing the budget reports. If I had been the team lead, I would have done blahblahblah, considering XYZ factors . . . ” etc.

          Having said all THAT, I have also used my post-interview thank you e-mail to refer back to something I said or didn’t say in the interview if I think it’ll help, but only if I’m e-mailing the hiring manager, not someone from HR.

  16. Allergy at Work*

    I am allergic to my workplace. It has been allergy that has developed over time. Basically my ear clogs (especially after some sneezing and sniffling) as soon as I get here and takes nearly two hours and a hot shower to get rid of once I get home. It doesn’t happen anywhere else I go.

    I work in pharmaceuticals if that explains anything. I have been doing this line of work for nearly 10 years but as of late this allergy is now about every day. It used to be once in a blue moon particularly on cold winter days; it doesn’t matter the season now it seems.

    I read an old post on AAM from 2011 and it said to address it with the boss. However I’m afraid to say that I’m allergic to his store and then be told to find employment elsewhere.

    Any suggestions? I’m at work now and it took about an hour for my ear to clog. I don’t go home until later and so I won’t have full proper hearing until maybe 7-8 tonight!

    1. Dragoning*

      Honestly, I’m concerned that something is wrong with your workplace–mold is growing somewhere, dust has built up over time in the vents, etc. I would explain this to your boss because the workplace likely needs a deep clean.

      1. Allergy at Work*

        The place is dirty. He pulled something off a top shelf yesterday and the dust bunnies came raining down on me. That was after my ear already clogged.

        They are also doing something in the back room to fumigate against rodents. They have mice traps around as well as a poster on the wall that says when the pesticide company was here.

        1. Dragoning*

          Yeah, I think that’s definitely your answer, then. Dust allergies are definitely a thing. My mother has one–she says exercise helps, but mostly you just gotta keep it cleaned.

          It will get worse when things are stirred up and aggravating you, but once it’s clean again, things will (hopefully) settle down.

          1. Tarra*

            I don’t think you can diagnose someone over the internet, however good your intentions. Think a trip to the doc is a good idea.

            1. Dragoning*

              I wasn’t attempting to diagnose–I just meant, they said they were probably allergic to something–not me. I just meant to point out that you can just be allergic to dust and offer some (very low-effort) solutions to test that might help if that’s the case.

              Besides, that much dust can set off people who aren’t allergic, too. Gross.

              1. fposte*

                FWIW, people are allergic to dust mites, not dust per se; as you note, though, there are also non-allergic responses to airborne particles.

        2. MaryHS*

          You could also be allergic to the rodents themselves. That’s sounds like the ear issues I got when I had a pet rabbit.

    2. fposte*

      I think you can address it with the boss if you have a specific accommodation or remediation you’re seeking. But right now you don’t–you have a response, you don’t know what it’s to, and technically you don’t even know if it’s an allergy (non-allergic rhinitis is very much a thing); if there’s a request, you forgot to mention it :-).)

      If the request is “Could I work remotely?” I’d only ask that now if it’s a place where lots of people work remotely and it’s NBD. If you haven’t gone to the doctor yet, consider going, or at least consider trying OTC remedies for rhinitis to see if they help.

      1. Allergy at Work*

        A family suggested seeing an ENT doctor. I might do it.

        The only thing is it is always here at work! Never anywhere else! That’s why I suspect it is an allergy. There has to be something here, such as all the pill dust, that I’m reacting to.

        2. WellRed*

          And, are you literally breathing in pill dust?? Is that normal in such a setting? It can’t be healthy and seems like violation of…something.

        3. fposte*

          You can have environmental reactions that aren’t allergies. And you can have allergies/environmental reactions to any number of things in your workplace, so that remediating one doesn’t necessarily solve the problem. If it’s to the cleaning fluid they use once a year, cleaning the place out more isn’t going to help you. The symptoms you describe also aren’t likely to rise to the level of an ADA claim, which means it’s probably not your manager’s legal obligation to change up the workplace to keep you from having it–especially if you haven’t taken any steps to find out what might be causing it and to mitigate the symptoms yourself.

          I think you’re coming from the theory that if something at work affects you negatively, it’s up to work to make sure it stops. And that’s not true, and it would be a little naive to bring this up as if it were. Take some steps on your own, see where where you are then with allergen identification and your own symptom relief, and then decide what might be worth asking your job for.

    3. Alex*

      It would be hard for your boss to respond usefully if you don’t know what you are allergic to. What requests or accommodations are you requesting?

      I’d actually start with a visit to the doctor to see what she suggests before going to your boss.

    4. BlueWolf*

      Have you had allergy testing done? It would probably be helpful to know specifically what you’re allergic to in order to address the issue. For example, if it is mold, then there may be moisture/humidity problems that need to be investigated and resolved.

      1. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

        I was going to suggest this also. I don’t think it makes sense to tell your boss until you know the underlying cause.

    5. Ama*

      So this is kind of random — does anyone in your workplace have one of those plug in air fresheners installed near your desk? Because your symptoms sound very similar to what started happening to me in my own apartment years ago, and it was only when I sat right next to my plug in one day and almost instantly got a clogged sinus and splitting headache on the side of my head closest to the air freshener that it occurred to me what the problem was. This was also later born out when I mentioned it to my boyfriend and he noted that there was a plug-in air freshener behind his couch — I’d been sneezing a lot over there but we assumed it was his cat (because I knew I was allergic to cats).

      If not an air freshener has anything else changed in your work environment recently?

      1. only acting normal*

        Seconding this suggestion.
        Plug-in air fresheners are the work of the devil and should collected up and shot into the sun.

        1. Kuododi*

          Oh absolutely yes!!! I was working retail a couple of years ago to get some extra $$. One of the things we sold was plug in wall air fresheners. I was helping a coworker clean our the display case where we kept the the different options of wall freshener replacement scents. Long story short I discovered one of the glass plugs containing the scent had broken and leaked scent oil in the bottom of it’s clear plastic drawer. After cleaning the mess we realized the scent oil had eaten a hole in the bottom of the plastic drawer causing it to drip all over the place. My thought was, if the oil does that much damage to a plastic drawer….what would it do to my lungs??? (The mind shudders!!!)

    6. Jess*

      So there’s a few parts to this:
      – diagnosing what you’re reacting to
      – figuring out what can be done about it
      – making choices based on those options

      Worst case scenario, it’s an environmental allergen that can’t be eliminated regardless of how much money your boss is able and willing to throw at it, and you have to find another job. Other worst case scenario, it’s the dust, and your boss isn’t willing to have the place thoroughly cleaned — once, or ever. (OSHA and/or the ADA might come into play in that case, I’m not sure, but if it comes to that you might prefer a job search anyway.)

      Personally, I’d start by talking to your boss and enlisting help in diagnosing the source — first in brainstorming all the different things that may have changed over that time (e.g., air fresheners, cleaning products/services, new medication dust), and second in requesting a thorough cleaning. This will both help to solve the mystery and give you a sense of how accommodating your boss is likely to be once you get to the second part of figuring out what might be done, especially if a fix would be technically possible but expensive, like recarpeting the store. Good luck!

    7. Achoo*

      Have you thought about purchasing an air purifier? They can be pricey, but can also work wonders.

    8. The Rain In Spain*

      I work in an old building that had some environmental issues remediated in the past. I was having cold/allergy-type symptoms. Instead of bringing it up with my chain of command (because I feared how they’d respond based on the stories they’d tell about my predecessor who caused the remediation to be performed), I bought myself an air purifier and keep it running 24/7 in my office. I don’t know if that’s an option for you, but it has GREATLY improved my symptoms. I change the prefilter every few months when it alerts me and the primary filter about once every 9-12 months. Well worth it!

    9. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      Do you think that wearing a mask of some kind (dust mask, surgical mask, etc.) will help with your symptoms in the short term; or mask and gloves? Finding out what you’re allergic to may take a long time — if indeed it is an allergy — so if you do approach your boss, it would be beneficial to have an “action” you can take that will help the situation.

    10. Lazy Susan*

      I had similar issue and it turned out to be the spray the pest control guys were using on their monthly treatments. It wasn’t an issue when I was first hired; but apparently there was ‘saturation point’ where it became a huge issue.

      I wonder if having the carpets deep cleaned, or having floors power washed would help.

    12. Always a nurse*

      Have you tried OTC allergy medication? That seems the simplest solution. Finding the specific allergen (with allergy testing) would be most beneficial if you were having frequent problems in a variety of settings, but it’s time consuming and expensive for a single issue.

      1. WS*

        +1, I’m allergic to dust mites and while I keep things clean, my control at work is limited. Daily OTC antihistamines plus a steroid nasal spray helps my sinuses.

    13. Cartographical*

      I use N-97 masks (you can get disposable or ones with changeable filters — tip: date it when you break out a new one so you’re changing it before it loses effectiveness) if I’m around dust or animals. A VOG-style mask is slightly less effective in my experience but will come in stylish colours and patterns. Both reduce particles entering your lungs and increase humidity in the air you breathe to improve the condition of your respiratory membranes. Your workplace sounds like it would make most people congested right now.

      OTC antihistamines and decongestants are a short&long-term solution and worth trying asap if you can — generics are available for most of them. Saline nasal rinse used during the day (I prefer the sealed, sterile solution in a spray bottle to the neti pot or reusable squeeze bottles, which have some issues) is almost magical in its efficacy in dealing with allergens and other irritants. I would absolutely be using this if there are pesticides and pest particles in the air.

      IMO, your next trip should be to your GP or wherever you can get a steroid-based nasal spray to reduce inflammation if they deem it appropriate (I use an antihistamine/steroid combination nasal spray) and possibly a note that you need to wear a mask to work until the environment clears. I know people who wear the “fashion” masks full time out of the house. After that, allergists or ENTs will help identify the source of the problem and have longer term solutions. Shots or sublingual drops have proven effective in treating many allergies.

      Good luck and stay well!

  17. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Any success stories out there from former librarians who changed careers and now do something completely different?

    I think the time has come for me to consider a career change. Right now I’m a bad combination of bored and stressed out. I’m also not on board with a number of the trends in the library world. In short, it may be time for me to go.

    If it matters, I’m a public librarian now. I’m not interested in academic librarianship; my school days are over and done. I’d consider corporate librarianship, but there are no such jobs in my area and I absolutely will not move. (Yes, I’m making it difficult!) I’d love to be an archivist, but there are few, if any, permanent full-time archive jobs that pay adequately.

    So that leaves exiting the profession completely, I think. Any success stories from people who have done it? Thanks in advance!

    1. Alice*

      Development can involve a lot of research, I think — finding out the backgrounds of potential donors.

    2. AnotherAlison*

      No personal experience, but I had a coworker who had his MLIS. He worked a field job with my company (Construction), moved into a market analyst role, then director of research, and is now the competitive intelligence manager at a law firm.

    3. Canonical23*

      No personal experience but I’ve been toying around with consulting jobs – a lot of the skill sets they look for are ones that I commonly use as a library assistant director.

    4. Marion the Librarian*

      I also want to second fundraising / development. I just accepted a job as a development and outreach coordinator for a non-profit and could point to my experience as an archivist/librarian during the interview. Prospect research, grant writing, and volunteer supervision were all transferable skills.

      It was a hard decision to move out of library/archives but I was also getting burnt out and knew I needed to make a change.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Congrats on your new job! I always envisioned fundraising/development as just making cold calls and begging organizations for money – the thought of which makes me shiver – but I have a feeling my preconceived notions are wrong.

        1. Marion the Librarian*

          Thank you! I’m very excited about the change as I was also getting bored with library work.

          From being detail oriented so you can manage databases, to synthesizing information when doing prospect research, I found a lot of overlap when I was looking at job descriptions. And it definitely isn’t about cold calling and begging (which I assumed as well before I started). A lot of research goes into fundraising!

          This article also helped when I was looking to branch out of the library/archive world: https://hacklibraryschool.com/2014/02/11/alternative-careers-for-lis-grads/

          1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

            Thanks for this, I will check it out! And good luck again.

        2. The OG OOF*

          As a successful fundraiser, I just want to share that I never beg. I give people opportunities to give to a cause that matters to them. And yes, I may be a little sensitive about this language. ;)

    6. Loopy*

      Not quite a librarian but I had an MLIS and worked as an archivist. I actually left for the reasons you cited about not being able to transition to working as an archivist! I did it very well for about 3-4 years….but was able to succeed only when I could move for a job! I successfully transitioned to being a technical writer have have been doing that for the past four years at a few jobs now.

      I am happy to answer more questions if that’s a jump you’d be remotely interested in!

    7. Tedious Cat*

      I never got my MLS, but I worked in libraries for many, many years. Getting out and trying something new was one of the best decisions I ever made. My new job is more intellectually demanding, but leaves me with emotional energy for the rest of my life, which libraries didn’t.

    8. Anon librarian*

      I’m in records management/documentation, though it’s not by choice…. just sort of happened after I received my MSLIS, but couldn’t find a library job. Still looking for a librarian position, but I am so far removed I doubt it will ever happen.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        I’ve actually never heard of that before, so I will investigate that. Thank you. It’s funny, we interviewed several people at our public library in the past year who had a corporate library background and were escaping due to layoffs or burnout, or both — so I’m not sure I’d have high hopes for corporate librarianship even if there were jobs available here, but I think I’d have the skills for it.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Try looking into corporate librarianships in insurance companies. The ones I used to work with loved their jobs and had great job security – us claims people were often too busy to look up our own case law and precedents. They were always happy to help with stuff like that.

    10. Not So Little My*

      I got my MLIS in 2000 but never worked in libraries, because I had really gotten attached to the technology aspects while I was in school, it was the dot com boom, and I was able to get jobs in the tech industry building websites with no experience except for building and maintaining the ISchool student association web newsletter and a few school projects. I built up a career in the industry, mostly self-taught, and am now a senior software engineer with nearly 20 years of experience. I was fortunate in my timing, this would be a more difficult path the way the industry is today, but I still think there’s a lot of room for librarians in tech, but they would need to be more strategic instead of just falling into it the way I did (I’m not a very strategic person).

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Thank you. I agree, but I definitely need to build my tech skills to be more marketable. Thankfully we have some free resources at our library to get me started. :-)

    11. Former Librarian*

      I burned out on higher ed librarianship and made the move into publishing. Specifically, I was an electronic resources librarian and at the publisher I was hired to license the content that we put in the books. There are number of ML(I)S holders in the department – the skills in working with databases and metadata are very helpful. I took a slight paycut but didn’t have to move, and oh! The lack of drama is AMAZING compared to academia.

    12. Lobsterman*

      Lots of staff jobs in academic librarianship which do not particularly require scholarship and like people with MLIS’s — or so my academic librarian faculty spouse says.

    13. Bibliovore*

      If you want to be an archivist, what are your passions? Do you have a specialty? Are you able to move? These are really hard and rare positions but every once in a while one might come up that is a good fit. It is a completely different job than public, academic, and school librarianship. Ask me how I know.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        Photography, transportation and museums would top my list but honestly I’m just fascinated by archive work in general. I am trained in it, although after 13 years I need a refresher. But I absolutely, positively, cannot and will not move, which is severely limiting professionally but some things are more important than work.

    14. Mellow*

      >I’m also not on board with a number of the trends in the library world.

      As an academic librarian with my own set of protests on that topic, I’m curious what yours are, if you’d like to share.

      One that bothers me is emptying shelves to make more space; university library buildings are being transformed into study halls – the Stabucksification of academic libraries, if you will. Another is the makerspace phenomenon.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        In public libraries, or at least in mine, it seems the rights of drug addicts and mentally unstable patrons take precedence over the safety of staff. A patron recently got into a fist fight with another patron in our space. He wasn’t banned. Security is being removed from our libraries because the powers that be think it’s unwelcoming to patrons, and we’re being left to fend for ourselves. I am not, and don’t want to be, a social worker.

        The extreme de-emphasis of books. Our only programs for teens are video games. I became a librarian, as cliche as it sounds, because I love books. I could go on, but those are the most pressing ones.

    15. Dr. Anonymous*

      Not all academic library systems require a subject masters—Georgia and Wisconsin come to mind—if that’s what you mean by , “My school days are done.” I left the library world, but became a physician, there was definitely school involved. It was probably worth it for me.

      1. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

        That’s partially what I meant but I have no interest in being an academic librarian anyway. I know several people who are or have been in the field, and briefly worked in an academic library myself — it seems there are virtually all the negatives of the public library, plus the neverending drama of professors and the pressure to “publish or perish.” Not for me. :-)

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Ah. I worked in the “back” (Automation and Tech Services don’t deal with a lot of faculty) and we had a non-tenure-track “indefinite status” option (which is basically tenure) with NO publication requirement. Different world. I served on some faculty committees, though, and of course academic librarians can’t go to the bathroom without having a committee meeting about whether we agree with how the Library of Congress thinks we should all be unrolling the toilet paper, so it may well not be for you AT ALL. I hope you find a low-bureaucracy option that brings you fulfillment and joy.

  18. Philanthropy Anon*

    Does anyone here work as a program officer?

    I’m a finalist for a program officer role at a local foundation, after two decades of nonprofit work. I’m excited about the opportunity but not entirely sure I want to make the leap from grantee to funder.

    I’d love to hear the challenges and downsides. What’s hard about your work? What makes you exhausted? If you moved from nonprofit to funder, what do you miss?

    1. money fairy*

      I am supposedly on the program side of a granting office (we don’t use the “program officer” title), but the distinction between program and finance is VERY blurry in my organization, and since we’re also understaffed, I spend a huge amount of my time on tasks that are technically finance rather than program. These are things like drafting agreements, progress and financial reporting, modifications and extensions, and working with our budget office to actually get the money out and then close out at the end. I came in as a PhD-level subject matter specialist, and I am sad about what’s getting neglected on the program side so that we can keep the financial mechanics running.

      So that’s the one major warning I’d give you – my advice to you is to ask a lot of questions about daily tasks and distribution of workload so you don’t get caught in a similar situation. I do think the way my organization handles this division is more of the exception than the rule, and more of a struggle to make things work for now than the actual ideal of any of our leadership.

      Of course, I also miss being out in the field and doing the work, but the other side of that is that I get to see a much wider variety of work in the field and feel like that is keeping me up to speed on new developments more than when I was doing pretty traditional work in my niche area.

      What I do like? I like not having to apply for grants all the time! Seriously, the stress of chasing funding, and the resulting anxiety about job stability and advancement, was one of the worst things about being on the recipient side. My current is much lower stress because having that security matters a lot to me. And when you have money, people love networking with you at conferences!

      1. money fairy*

        Oh also, on the “what makes you exhausted” question – for me, with the rhythm of the funding cycle, there are pretty time sensitive deadlines where you have to get a lot done in a relatively short of time, and having delays from outside the program (e.g. waiting for actions from budget) can make that really stressful. But again, most of the time, it is still less exhausting than actually applying for funding on top of a full time job. My particular role involves a very manageable amount of travel, as we don’t do monitoring via site visits and we have someone above the program level who spends around a third of their time traveling to make those appearances, but I can imagine that would be exhausting if that were heavy in the position you’re looking at.

    3. theguvnah*

      I’ve thought about this move a lot. I think what keeps me from it is actually missing out on doing the work. Like, sure, you might give guidance and of course make funding decisions but…you’re not actually doing the work. So I’m not sure I’d be comfortable being that far removed from the changemaking aspects of my work (policy/advocacy at a nonprofit).

      But for some that would be a feature not a bug! So it’s obviously a personal decision.

    4. Brynna*

      Yes! I worked in the nonprofit space in program development, as well as fundraising and I made the switch to Program Officer about a year ago.

      I work at the state government, so our grantmaking is very technical and somewhat prescribed. However, I love this side of the work and I find that having a background in nonprofit benefits me IMMENSELY when working with grantees. Having the deep understanding their day-to-day increases my credibility with grantees and allows me to advocate for them as necessary in my own organization.

      I find the relationships I’m able to develop with grantees and their organizations is satisfying and since the work is much less stressful (in my experience), I’m able to spend time volunteering for causes that I want to support, without making it my livelihood.

      This has been a fantastic switch for me and I’m happy to share more, if you’d like!

  19. Alice*

    I decided not to worry about the overall quality of a program I’m doing with some internal collaborators. I’m going to have great content for my bit, and so are the colleagues who have been preparing, and the one person who has been blowing things off, ducking phone calls, and replying to email only in the wee hours is going to have good or bad material but it’s not my problem.
    I feel great!

  20. Shark Whisperer*

    I think I already know the answer, but I want to know what the hivemind thinks:

    Are overalls appropriate for casual Friday?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Depends where you work. I once audited a company where most of the dudes showed up in pajamas most of the time.

      In most places though I would say no.

    3. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Well, my boss has said (in an all-hands meeting, no less) that Carhartt’s style overalls are appropriate office wear.

      Of course, we’re a tech company with a casual dress code, so his answer is not necessarily applicable everywhere…

    4. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      It depends how casual your casual Friday is.

      At my firm, absolutely not. Casual Friday means you can wear jeans — period. Nothing else changes from our standard dress code, which is on the high side of business casual. At OldJob, where casual Friday meant jeans, t-shirts, sweatshirts, and sneakers… yeah, you could probably get away with overalls, depending on what shirt you wore under them and how far they fell to the fashion side of the fashion/utility matrix.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      Not unless you are at a construction job site.

      I saw someone on the street wearing overalls with one strap down the other day. Brought me back to junior high. I can’t believe this trend is back.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            It’s the way you America with an “accent” that’s usually a derogatory slam at right wing Good Ol Boy

            1. LCL*

              That’s what I thought. Had to stand up for my peeps, Carhartt overalls are specifically part of our dress code.

      2. KayEss*

        Oh geez… I remember that trend. Mostly from the perspective of being a kid who wore overalls a lot but was too uptight to not fasten both straps.

        Overalls in an office setting would read to me as childish, not adult-casual.

      3. Antilles*

        I think this is a bit far; a *lot* of non-construction workplaces wouldn’t raise an eyebrow at all at overalls. I can personally say that several offices I’ve worked at, including my current one, wouldn’t even notice.

      4. Detective Amy Santiago*

        I saw a bunch of overalls at Kohl’s a few weeks ago and cringed hard at this trend coming back.

          1. Jennifer Juniper*

            %$#%#%# That should read “wear,” not “wear.”

            Also, where I live, overalls would read “down on the farm,” not “casual Friday.”

      1. valentine*

        Those are awful. They look like a bag. OshKosh B’gosh and Carhartt’s are several cuts above that.

      2. Autumnheart*

        Yowza, those are hideous. And let’s just imagine the wardrobe malfunction you could have if one of those straps comes untied.

        1. Jennifer Juniper*

          There’s already a wardrobe malfunction. The model forgot to wear an actual shirt, and possibly underwear as well. If I were a manager and an employee came in wearing that, I’d give her a stern talking-to and send her home to change. I would also inform her that the time spent out of office would not be paid.

    7. Arielle*

      I think sadly no. I work in a very casual office and even here I’ve never seen anyone in overalls on any day of the week. It is a shame because I wanted to get these cute maternity overalls and realized I would never have anywhere to wear them because I can’t really wear them to work and on weekends I’m in leggings 24×7.

    8. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

      Depends! Are they dress overalls? I’ve seem some very classy looking women’s jumpsuit/overalls mixed with collared shirts that I would say fit a casual Friday. Or even black tailored overalls that fit the bill.

      Jean overalls would be a hard pass from me though.

      1. AnotherAlison*

        I guess you could wear dressy overalls on casual Friday, but now you’re dressy. I would still argue this is something someone who is 25 might pull off, but I would think a 40 year old would look silly. Maybe not in a very fashionable office, but definitely in my office.

    9. Not Today Satan*

      People at my office literally wear sweat suits on Friday so… it depends on the workplace.

    10. Half-Caf Latte*

      I will take this opportunity to share my objection to romper-style outfits, which are similar:

      Most public bathrooms, including those at my workplace, are lacking in sufficient privacy, not to mention sometimes cleanliness, for me to be willing to disrobe every time I need to pee.

      1. Jennifer Juniper*

        There’s a photo of me wearing a flowered shorts romper outfit when I was 20. I somehow got away with that, but would no longer be caught dead in that. Not to mention my wife would rip the thing off me and make me change!

        1. valentine*

          Not to mention my wife would rip the thing off me and make me change!
          Your body, your rules. Time for a floral-romper sit-in.

          1. Jennifer Juniper*

            My wife is far more fashionable than I am. Also, I no longer wear shorts, since I am fat and 44. The sight of me in shorts is something even I can’t stand, much less want to inflict on others.

            1. I Took A Mint*

              Oof. Wear whatever you feel comfortable in, but I can’t get on board with this level of self-deprecation. There’s nothing wrong with fat and/or 44 year old people wearing shorts, or having legs. If it’s hot and you decide you want to wear shorts, go for it!

    11. Nanc*

      I’d say no just because of restroom logistics. Raise your hand if you’ve ever worn overalls, gone to the restroom and managed to land the straps in the toilet! Ah the 1980s, when cropped overalls were considered appropriate office attaire.

      1. Syfygeek*

        I think that’s why people left one strap hanging down- that was the strap that got wet.

        Mine were bright yellow, and I wore them with a green Hawaiian shirt. My then roommate says it was an accident they were thrown away, but I think it was for the greater good.

      2. Kuododi*

        Overalls, no however I did have a fairly epic disaster with a jumper while slogging through the fashion challenged ’80s. Those things are a nightmare for the anatomically female when needing to get to the bathroom in a hurry!!! AAACCK!!!!

    12. Boop*

      Dressy overalls were trendy a few years ago, usually in linen, silk or another high quality material. They also usually involved drawn-in hems instead of boot cut or straight leg. Rompers, basically overalls with shorts, were also popular a few seasons ago. I personally don’t think I could wear something like that without feeling like a total impostor, but if it fits with your overall style and office vibe you can give it a try.

      In most office environments denim overalls would not read well. I would avoid.

    13. Jules the 3rd*

      Maybe in some areas / industries, but I would not choose to be the first to wear them.

    14. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      For an office that presumably wears business attire regularly? No.

      Farming,mechanics or manufacturing office,all the darn time.

      My dad wears bibbers now that he can’t wear jeans due to his colostomy and urology bags. They serve a great purpose for staying clean but are for utility purposes not fashion.

    15. only acting normal*

      Well, that confused me!
      In the UK the jeans-with-a-bib-and-straps would be “dungarees”, and “overalls” would be a boiler suit (literally over *all*).

      You might be able to get away with a more tailored style – as a smart jumpsuit is to a boilersuit – but the regular jeans type would be too casual for most offices.

      2. TechWorker*

        Agreed, though the actual boiler suit type overalls are currently ‘in fashion’. Or at least, on catwalks and in fashion week, I can’t say I’d wear one to my office :)

    16. Grace Less*

      No, but wouldn’t “Casual Friday mis-steps” be a great holiday open thread topic?

      There is a person in my building who wears track suits every day of the week, and we’ve only been allowed to wear jeans on Fridays since January. I wonder what dirt they have on someone in the C-Suite…

    17. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      If you have to ask, probably it’s a no.
      But… I wore a pair once, for “Cultural background day.”
      Grew up in a flyover state with too many vowels.
      Paired with boots, a t-shirt and red bandana…. it was a hit.

      Anything that works for a costume party maybe isn’t great for casual Friday. But your office may vary.

  21. Unidentified*

    Would you offer advice in this situation to someone who’s job searching?

    My team at a university has a graduate assistant who just graduated and is looking for corporate jobs. Before academia she came from a field where there’s virtually no dress code. The jobs she’s targeting now would likely be business casual, possible emphasis on the casual.

    She is going to interviews in very casual clothing that does not remotely read “interview” to me. Chunky lace-up heels, mismatched socks, exposed shoulders, casual tops, etc.

    She will ask us offhand on an interview day, “do I look okay?” But then will say things like “I wouldn’t want to work at a place that won’t hire me because I expose my shoulders, mismatch my socks”, etc. She doesn’t actually ask for advice in advance.

    In general she’s talented but also is typically pretty sure her perspective is the right one. When she didn’t vibe with one interviewer, for example, she told us that the interviewer (who had a lot of professional experience) was threatened by her degree.

    She’s been getting a decent number of interviews but no offers. So…would you offer advice in this case? I think she just needs to understand that the cultures of the places she’s applying to are pretty different from the ones she’s experienced. But I don’t know if I should just let her figure this out on her own.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I’d be tempted to respond to her “Do I look okay?”s with “Are you actually asking for my opinion or do you want me to validate your choices?”

      But seriously, maybe ask her sometime when she’s not interviewing what she wants? Something like “Hey, you always ask if you look okay before your interviews and you seem frustrated that you haven’t gotten any offers. Are you looking for advice or would you rather continue doing things on your own?” She might say she’s fine or she might actually ask your opinion in which case I would absolutely say something about her clothes.

      1. Kathenus*

        Yes, this. I think it’s one of those where she’s asking, so you can take one shot at giving her honest, constructive feedback. If she chooses to take it, great. If not, then you move on and don’t engage on the topic again.

        1. valentine*

          Tell her the interview is like the Olympics Opening Ceremonies. The athletes wear their tracksuits. When they compete, however, that is the time for the uniforms. It is like following baking instructions the first time, then customizing or improvising.

      2. Oxford Comma*

        I think you could actually use the basics of that question as long as your tone was not sarcastic. You could also just take her aside one day and ask if she wants advice. If she says no, just wish her the best of luck and move on.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        This. She might be asking for real, but from the rest of the context it sounds like she’s deliberating choosing a “look” and wants validation, not an honest critique. If she wants a job where she can bare her shoulders, it’s likely not going to be an office job. The mismatched socks and casual tops (assuming that means t-shirts and tops that offer typical coverage, not club wear) might be okay but even the most casual business casual doesn’t usually go for exposed body parts*. Or she may get a job but not be taken seriously if she continues to value her look over office standards. And definitely not if she believes and acts like her newly acquired degree makes her a threat to existing employees, particularly those senior to her.

        * Okay the cold shoulder thing is debatable as office appropriate – I admit to bias against this.

        1. Anononon*

          I guess the cold shoulder issue is also related to whether your workplace accepts sleeveless tops.

          I know Alyson hates these but I am generally uncomfortable in tops with sleeves (unless they’re sheer/airy in which case also not office appropriate in general!!). I basically immediately sweat and feel uncomfortable (possibly some of this is psychological since I do, you know, wear jumpers). I get that dress codes for men are different here (ie it’s basically never even business casual appropriate to wear a sleeveless shirt/top) but at the same time men’s clothing isn’t generally as fitted. Plus my sizing means if i bought a t shirt to be loose at the armpit it’ll be absolutely massive at the waist and thus definitely not read as ‘smart’. If sleeveless tops are ok then cold shoulder stuff isn’t really much different, IMO.

    2. Dragoning*

      I have so many questions about why she’s intentionally mismatching her socks in general, but especially on interview day if her socks are so visible.

      I’m not used to seeing my coworkers’ socks.

      1. Dragoning*

        Also RE: exposed shoulders, etc: have you tried explaining to her that most places of business expect you to be more formally dressed during an interview than during the normal course of work? Might help.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        I mismatch my socks purely for self-entertainment – and on weekends, I also mismatch my Converse for similar reasons. When little kids very earnestly point out to me that my shoes don’t match – which they do, regularly – I ask them why they think that might be, because their answers are way better than mine ever could be. (One little boy at the zoo last summer was POSITIVE that I’d been wrestling the bears in the bear exhibit and they stole one of my shoes, so I had to find another one to replace it. Hey, why not!) Also, it reduces laundry time spent in matching socks. They’re all the same style, just different colors/patterns, so I just huck them all in the drawer and grab two at random.

        But … nobody ever SEES my socks in work clothes, especially not at an interview.

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          Yeah, mismatched socks is a fun quirk. (I go for funky stripes, myself)

          Bare shoulders in an interview is pretty seriously unprofessional. If it’s my kid or a close friend, I’d try a discussion on code-switching uses and examples, and how ‘interview’ is a slightly different situation than ‘regular work day’, but I’d also get into ‘unless you’re in the arts / media, bare shoulders are unprofessional with everyone.’

          But I’d have to know them well and like them a lot.

          1. Jennifer Juniper*

            When I read that she was baring her shoulders in a job interview, I shuddered. An older woman should take her aside and tell her that her interviewers might make nasty assumptions about her character.

            1. Tim Tam Girl*

              ‘Nasty assumptions about her character’? Because she bared her shoulders? You have got to be kidding. Please tell me you’re kidding.

              I fully agree that she isn’t dressing professionally enough and is probably shooting herself in the foot with this attitude. But to insinuate that interviewers would want to brand her with a scarlet ‘A’, and that this would be a **normal and acceptable response**, is victim-blaming misogyny and utterly bananacrackers to boot.

              1. Argh!*

                There are a lot of religious sects that are against this, and they dominate some pockets of society. It’s wrong, but it’s a thing.

                1. Jennifer Juniper*

                  @Tim Tam Girl:

                  No, I wasn’t kidding. A lot of conservative interviewers would do precisely that. (Don’t worry, I wouldn’t automatically make those assumptions.)

                  However, I wouldn’t hire her because I’d know her judgment was atrocious.

                  @Agrh: Thank you for pointing that out.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            At one point when I was at Disneyworld, three little kids came up to me and asked me if I was allowed to have mismatched shoes. I said “Absolutely, I asked Mickey when we had breakfast this morning and he said it was fine.” They turned around and ran back to their adults and all sat down on the ground and started trading shoes around so they didn’t have matched ones either. Uh, sorry, adults? (The adults looked greatly amused, at least.)

      3. Temperance*

        One of my nieces is obsessed with mismatched socks. It’s her favorite way to dress (she’s 7) and she loves when we do it, too. Of course, I wouldn’t go to work like that (said by the person currently wearing Captain Marvel socks at a law firm).

    3. Murphy*

      Since she’s a student, and because she’s asked how she looks, I’d 100% give her advice.

      1. alphabet soup*

        Yes, give the advice once. If she fails to heed that advice after that, at least you’ll know you’ve done your part.

    4. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      I have a feeling she’s self-sabotaging. I suspect “I wouldn’t want to work at a place that won’t hire me because of [X sartorial choice]” means “a part of me just doesn’t want to get hired.”

      So sure, go ahead and mention that even casual workplaces have different expectations for interview dress, but I wouldn’t hold out much hope or feel too invested.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Even if you’re just interviewing and that’s not how you dress the rest of the time on the job, you are kind of socially expected to spiff it up a bit for the interview. It sounds like she is not doing that.

      2. Unidentified*

        See, that’s my thing, and why I hesitate. On some level she must know it’s not great interview attire if she’s immediately making disclaimers like that.

    5. Syfygeek*

      A professor I know has his senior students research companies they would like to intern/work for, and that includes office environment and culture. One of the questions they answer is what would the sales team wear to call on clients.

      He said it’s been a wake up call to some of them, and the information can be found by some creative google-fu. Maybe you could suggest she takes a deeper look into the “About Us” section of the company website. Normally that area will include photos of employees, that may be staged, but are indicative of what is normally worn.

    6. Tipcat*

      Her life is not your circus. Also, unsolicited advice is rarely appreciated or followed. The info is available to her (here and other places), if she wants it.

      1. Aggretsuko*

        Possibly at some point the need to get a job will outweigh the need to find a place that fits her dress style.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      I think you can weigh in once (don’t keep reminding her) to just let her know it’s okay to dress slightly differently from your normal attire just for a job interview. And if she shrugs it off, hey, you gave her your opinion, and then she can learn on her own from there.

      I’ve actually worked in places where I was able to dress very casually, and I felt very comfortable there. But for those job interviews, I dressed up slightly. No big deal.

    8. WellRed*

      She’s not going to figure this out on her own (bare shoulders?). And a PSA to all you freshly minted grads: it’s highly unlikely an interviewer will ever be threatened by your degree.

      1. Unidentified*

        Yeah, I think the possibility is slightly higher when it’s a PhD, but it’s still unlikely. I think what happens more often is a recent MA or PhD assuming their degree qualifies them more than job experience would.

      2. bunniferous*

        There is a type of blouse popular now that has a hole/bare space right at the shoulder yet covering most of the upper arm.

    9. Not So NewReader*

      I would tell myself that this is not actually a clothing issue.

      In my out loud voice, I think I would say something like, “We can hear our own drummer OR we can be solidly employed. We have to pick which one we want.”

      There are plenty of people out there that have their own thing going on. They pay a price for that, perhaps they are always looking for work or they end up in some weird or even nasty work settings. Some how they manage. Sometimes I tell myself, “If I tried to do work/life in that manner I would fall flat on my face. I just don’t have much luck with being free-spirited. My luck is so poor that I even got yelled at for littering AT THE DUMP.”

    10. Autumnheart*

      If she’s asking you if she looks okay before she heads out to an interview, then you need to tell her “No, that outfit is totally inappropriate for an interview. It’s too casual and unprofessional.” You’re doing her a disservice if you are not telling her, in plain language, that her outfits are not appropriate.

      Otherwise, let her figure it out. If she can get a master’s degree, she can google “What should I wear to an interview?” or she can enjoy being unemployed. At some point the baby birds have to leave the nest. Mid-20s is old enough to be responsible for the consequences of their choices.

  22. More Anonymous Than Usual*

    My boss is really an amazing manager, but they’re also very in denial about the salaries in our department.

    Whenever I mention anything that might indicate we (the people in our department) are getting below market rate, they get very defensive and insist we’re very competitive with the market and they’ve done all this research to make sure we’re even with our peers. But then in other conversations I’ve had with them, they’ve complained about their own salary being too low. And I recently put in notice, and they’ve now been complaining to me that the applicants for my position have been backing out once they hear the salary range, because the applicants aren’t willing to take a pay cut.

    I feel a bit bad, because I know they’ve worked really hard to get me huge raises (and even then I’m still not making market rate), but we’re just all underpaid as a department. It’s a systemic issue.

    I’m leaving (as I mentioned before), so it’s not really that big a deal to me, but I almost wish my boss would leave for a better-paying job themselves, because they totally could. I think they have some kind of weird sense of loyalty to the organization, though.

    1. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      If they do exit interviews, you may want to mention the salary problem again, but it probably won’t do any good. May also be worth suggesting they offer other benefits if they can’t compete with salaries. I’ve always thought that jobs aren’t always about the money, but if a company pays low AND doesn’t make up for it in other ways, they can’t expect to retain their employees.

      1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

        Well, I do think there are actually many benefits to the place apart from salary, which is why I stayed as long as I did, but no matter how much my boss complains about their salary or mine (or anyone else’s in our department), if I mention that we aren’t being paid market rate, they suddenly get very defensive about our salaries being competitive. Cognitive dissonance…

        And, unfortunately, there isn’t much they (my boss) can do about the salaries, so I don’t think an exit interview mention of that will help. They can already see there are several great candidates turning down the position once they find out the salary range.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      In the current economy you cannot get away with low salaries. There’s too much competition and its a job seekers market.

      You’re nice to like them enough to feel for their situation but yep, they’ll get bottom of the pool results with low rates. Welcome to a recovering economy.

      1. More Anonymous Than Usual*

        It’s going to be tough for them to find a replacement. I’m trying to help as much as I can with the hiring process (and I’ll be involved with training the new person), but the salary they’re paying is definitely going to thin the candidate pool, and already has.

  23. Anon for this*

    I have a coworker who has a 6-month old baby. She took a 3-month maternity leave, during which she used all of her PTO, plus some donated PTO, and some unpaid leave. Since she returned to work about three months ago, her (retired) father has been living with her and providing childcare while she and her husband are at work.

    Last week, her mother needed surgery on short notice (a few days), so her father went back home to take care of her mother, and therefore couldn’t provide childcare all week. My coworker just took the whole week off to stay home with the baby. Of course I don’t know the details of her PTO situation, but just doing the math, I know she couldn’t possibly have enough vacation time to cover the whole week. By coincidence, we had a huge crisis last week that directly affected our department, and the rest of us worked 60-70 hours last week dealing with the crisis, so it was just about the worst possible time for her to take a week off.

    I don’t have kids, so I am just wondering, isn’t it usually expected that people will have alternate childcare arrangements for situations like this? I could understand if maybe she didn’t have anything lined up yet on Monday, but surely she could have taken the day on Monday to call around and find a daycare that would take her child for the rest of the week? Or she could have split the week with her husband, not that division of childcare within her marriage is any of my business, but I was just pretty shocked that she didn’t even try to make childcare arrangements so she could come to work during a major crisis.

    (And I know any time this kind of thing comes up here, people go on and on about how terrible maternity leave is in the US and mothers should get more time off, etc., but that is really a whole different topic that I would rather not get into. My question would be the same even if she got a year of paid maternity leave and her baby is a year old and she just took the week off because her regular childcare was unavailable.)

    1. laura*

      I’d say no, no one has backup childcare available for an emergency like this. The nature of an emergency is you never know when it’s going to pop-up. Plus it’s impossible to have someone on-call for an unexpected situation that may never crop up.

      Could she have found someone to take her kid for part of the week? Maybe, but depending on where you are, daycares are generally at capacity. And maybe she did try.

      1. Temperance*

        My office has backup childcare, for free, as an employee benefit. I don’t think it’s that uncommon.

        1. Natalie*

          It’s still exceedingly uncommon to offer any kind of on-site childcare, much less free, drop in care. That sounds like an awesome benefit but it’s definitely a rare one.

          1. valentine*

            Your coworker is not the problem. Cancel CSI: Coworker. If you don’t want to work 60 hours, don’t, and discuss your workload with your manager.

        2. laura*

          How interesting, that’s never something I’ve heard of. I’m fascinated as to how it works. Is there a local daycare that’s obliged to keep X number of spots free for your employees on a moment’s notice? And how does that work for the variety in staffing requirements and care required for a 6 month old vs. a 4 year old.

          1. GRA*

            Yes. I have NEVER heard of anything like this at an employer before. What a great benefit, but very very rare.

        4. Frankie*

          Wow, I’ve never seen that in any workplace ever, that I’ve worked at, temped at, visited, etc.

          My university has an onsite day care but it’s one center for thousands and thousands of people, they don’t accept anyone under 15 months, it’s just as expensive as any other day care and there’s no backup or drop-in anything. So might as well not exist for most of us.

        5. Anon for this*

          That would be nice, but our workplace definitely does not offer any kind of childcare, so it was not an option for her in this case.

        6. Parenthetically*

          backup childcare, for free, as an employee benefit. I don’t think it’s that uncommon

          I have literally never heard of such a thing in almost two decades of adulthood and employment in any of the towns or cities where I have lived.

          3. iglwif*

            My spouse’s company offered this as a benefit (like, a certain number of days per year). Not sure if they still do, since it’s been many years since we’ve needed it! I’m also not 100% sure how it worked–daycare centers here tend to be at capacity at all times, and you have to get on the waiting list well before you actually give birth even though most people take minimum 6-8 months’ leave–but I guess if you have enough money you can like … keep a couple of spots on retainer??

            His company is a huge multinational, and they offer a lot of other stuff that probably 90% of employers can’t, like an on-site gym. I’ve never heard of this anywhere else, and I would guess that how common or uncommon it is varies enormously based on company size, going rates for daycare in your city, city size, etc., etc. Definitely not something everyone, or even most people, can count on!

          4. ten-four*

            It exists! We have it through my husband’s company, a tech/consulting company. The way it works is that we get 10 days of service through a temp child care service. We call when we know we need someone, and they send us a person. We’ve actually only used it once so far, and a supervisor came along with the caregiver to meet me and give me her card. The temp person was perfectly fine! I work from home, so I have the additional benefit of not worrying about leaving my kiddo alone with a perfect stranger in my home all day. It is a Very Nice Benefit.

        7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Our form of this is just bringing your kid to work but not at 6 month, yikes!

          You have to have staffing for X amount of Y age group…so I’m shocked your employer can provide that kind of service unless they’re constantly stocked with aids!

    2. Ali G*

      In most areas you really can’t just call up a daycare and ask them to take your kid for a week. People are on waitlists for literal years in a lot of areas. Daycare is not emergency back up.
      However, I do think a “back up” policy of just taking off work is not sustainable in the long run. But that’s on your CW, not you.

      1. GRA*

        “However, I do think a “back up” policy of just taking off work is not sustainable in the long run. But that’s on your CW, not you.”

        But isn’t that one of the reasons we have PTO? To take time off when there are family emergencies, for sick days, etc.? Not all PTO is planned!

        1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

          Anon for this doesn’t mention how they know this (and is possibly incorrect if they don’t have the full story), but they said at the top that the co-worker had run out of PTO. Whether or not that’s the case, Ali G has a point regarding coming up with a “back up” policy, including possibly allowing unpaid days off.

          1. Ms. Taylor Sailor*

            I just reread it in full and co-worked did take unpaid days off as part of her maternity leave! So it’s a possible option then and I can only see it becoming a genuine issue if it starts happening too frequently, but that’s still ultimately between co-worker and their manager.

      2. Always a nurse*

        Re: “emergency” day care. There are such services. There was at least one in Tucson about 12 years ago. They had certified, bonded, child care specialists who would come to your house with a bag of toys, games, books all appropriate to the age group and provide in home service. The company got some financial support from the local large employers – the University of Arizona, a couple of optic tech firms, perhaps one of the aerospace firms in Tucson at the time. It was offered as a employee benefit for those companies, and other parents could use it, but not at a discounted rate. The idea was it could help keep critical employees at work despite outbreaks of the flu, chicken pox, etc. It was primarily designed to be “sick child” care, but it could be used for short term emergency coverage when other arrangements collapsed. It was particularly nice for school age kids that were sick, but not old enough to be home alone sick.

    3. Marge*

      “but surely she could have taken the day on Monday to call around and find a daycare that would take her child for the rest of the week?”

      No. I literally have never heard of a daycare center that has last minute drop in availability like that. Maybe it’s different for people who live in larger cities than I do, with more variety/availability of childcare?

      It’s really really hard to find reliable trustworthy childcare with short notice and/or find a regular person who would be available just whenever during business hours for when stuff like this comes up. Especially for an infant. All the people we use for occasional babysitting work during the day, and the other option is students, who are also not generally available during business hours. At least not for entire days/weeks.

      1. Marge*

        Sorry, didn’t mean to pile on. There were no other comments when I started typing.

        I know so many women who left careers when they started having kids. Affordability and availability of childcare is an immense problem. I have certainly gone through period where I wondered if it would just be easier if I quit my job. You kind of have to get into a mindset that you will lie there and take whatever the universe throws your way, and deal with the career consequences later. Even if that means potentially losing your job. It sucks.

      2. Dragoning*

        Especially since this child is not in daycare typically, and is under a year yet. I know daycares around here that won’t take anyone under 18 months–and they would be an emergency backup for people already registered, for a day they wouldn’t normally come. But not for someone who is functionally a “stranger.”

        I understand you’re stressed right now, but this is not your business, I’m afraid.

    4. Murphy*

      I don’t know the details on this person, but I would have a hard time finding alternative child care for my child for an entire week on short notice. I’d split this kind of thing with my husband, as we do when our daughter is sick, but that’s not always possible.

      Also I know know where you live, but where I live absolutely no daycare could take your child on short notice like that. Absolutely impossible. Plus the time you’d need to tour and vet the place is no small thing.

      1. Arielle*

        Yeah, I am not due until October and people in my due date group are already saying that they’re on waitlists for daycare a YEAR from now.

    5. Rusty Shackelford*

      Actually, it would be astonishing if she DID have backup daycare that could take her child for a week. That part’s not odd at all. But yeah, I’d wonder why her husband couldn’t take some time off as well.

    6. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Echoing what everyone else said; daycares aren’t child kennels, and you can’t “phone around and find one” that will take a kid on short notice for the rest of the week. Were there other solutions than that one? Maybe, but that’s between your coworker and your/her boss, not you.

      I have a coworker who’s been on a LOA for the past two months. We’re in the middle of tax season and cruising close to our SLAs. Having him out for so long has been a major hardship — but them’s the breaks. I’ve got no clue what’s going on on his end, aside from some scuttlebutt about a possible divorce. But our boss approved the LOA, and I’m sure CW would rather be here and working and NOT dealing with whatever he’s dealing with right now.

      1. Natalie*

        Hell, I’m not sure I’d be able to find a place to kennel my dogs for a week on super short notice.

        1. Zephy*

          I worked for a hot minute at probably the sketchiest doggy daycare you’d be likely to find anywhere, and even we would at least need you to bring shot records.

    7. Asenath*

      She might or might not have been able to split the week with her husband, depending on his work situation, but in many places day-care spaces are at a premium, and you most certainly do NOT find 0ne, particularly for an infant, on a moment’s notice. In fact, many day cares don’t take infants at all. Finding someone to come into her home might also be chancy – locate candidates, interview them, hire them…it would take longer than a week. If her husband couldn’t swing some time off, I’m not sure what else she could have done than stay home. It might be possible in some situations to have alternate day care available, but I wouldn’t be surprised to hear that it isn’t. A lot of young parents’ emergency backup daycare IS a relative – if they have relatives who aren’t living halfway across the country, caring for a sick spouse, or working full-time and unable to take time off.

    8. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      Did she make any effort to to help where she could? Could she have worked remotely or come in for a few hours in the evening?

      As other commenters mentioned, she had limited options, and I don’t blame her for prioritizing her family…but I would want some kind of demonstration that she was aware of the unexpected burden placed on her coworkers and at least made some kind of effort. I’d be feeling sour about it, in your shoes.

      1. Anon for this*

        Obviously I don’t know all the details of her life, but as far as I could tell, she didn’t make any effort. She found out about the surgery sometime during the week before, and she just told the boss and one other coworker she’d be taking the week off. I had to cover some of her duties and she didn’t even tell me she was going to be off — I didn’t find out until she didn’t show up on Monday. And she didn’t do any work from home (not even responding to e-mails) or come in during the evening after her husband got home from work. She never said anything to me to indicate that she was aware of the burden from her unexpected absence.

        2. Kathenus*

          This sounds like a failure of management more than your coworker. It’s her responsibility to tell her boss about her schedule and it’s your boss’s responsibility to then communicate about how to get the work done. If she was off, she shouldn’t have to do work or respond to emails. I know that many, including me, are in the habit of doing so, but this is about your organization not handling it well, in my opinion, not the coworker who had to do the emergency care.

          1. Anon for this*

            I don’t know, if I’m planning to take time off and I need some of my duties covered, I try to provide some information to those who are going to be covering my duties and tell them in advance if possible, even if I have already cleared it with my boss. My boss was just as involved in dealing with the crisis as the rest of us (actually even more), so I don’t blame him for not being totally on top of unexpectedly-absent coworker’s workload while he was completely swamped.

            1. Natalie*

              Okay, but you say in your initial comment that her time off was short notice (a few days), and then during the week she was out some kind of crisis came up. You’re analyzing what she might have done differently based on what you know this week, but if we go back in time two weeks with only the information she had then, at the time she had to make decisions, it doesn’t seem like she did anything particularly carelessly or cavalierly.

              There’s a reason people came up with pithy sayings about hindsight.

            2. motherofdragons*

              It’s nice that you give your coworkers a heads up when you’ll be out, but I don’t think that’s a standard you can reasonably hold your coworker to. That’s not something done in our office, for example; I only let my boss know I’m out, and trust her to coordinate any kind of conversation between myself and my coworker(s) who may be covering for me. That’s her job to determine who and how those duties are covered in my absence.

              I’m also wondering if you could apply that same understanding you feel towards your boss towards your coworker, who was dealing with her own crisis? Something like, “I don’t blame her for not being totally on top of notifying everyone who could’ve been impacted by her unexpected absence while completely swamped [with personal stuff]”?

            3. GRA*

              Your co-worker did not have “planned time off”. This was an emergency situation – her mother had emergency surgery and she has a 6-month old infant that needed to be cared for. No matter what job I have, my children and family are always going to take priority when there’s an emergency.

              1. Anon for this*

                Although it was not planned very far in advance, she did know about it by the end of the previous week, so she could have given the rest of us a heads up that she was going to be out the whole week and we would need to cover X, Y, and Z for her.

                1. Dragoning*

                  I understand you’re angry and are trying to justify it, but honestly, I would say let this one go. It doesn’t appear to be an on-going issue, and if it is, ask you manager about it, not your coworker.

                  You don’t need to go looking for things your coworker did wrong.. You can just be angry that life sucked for you that week and be glad it’s over.

            4. Dee-Nice*

              It makes more sense for your boss to have a protocol for this sort of thing and to be able to execute a notification plan for employees’ unexpected absences than it does for your coworker to be able to plan for her mom’s needing unexpected surgery and extended recovery time. Your coworker was also completely swamped, just in a different and less-visible way from you. She had an emergency and the office had an emergency at the same time. It’s not an ideal situation but I don’t think anyone is at fault here. It sounds like your week sucked as a result, and I really am sorry to hear it. It sounds miserable. For the record, I have also had to cover for coworkers who left me with little to no notice or instruction and I wasn’t happy about it, either. I think the best thing to do here, for your peace of mind, is to assume she really had no other choice and it was all unavoidable.

            5. a1*

              This is what we do where I work too. It would be completely odd not to at least send out an email to those covering for you while you’re gone. Even if you miss something in haste, no one holds it against you when have made the effort. When I know I’m going to be gone for more than a day or two, I send an email to those involved in my projects and cc my manager with a list of those projects and at least a quick on liner after it (e.g. Llamas hiking report – will be fine while I’m gone; Llamas shoe project – need to do X by Wed, follow up with Ted; etc). In many offices would even be seen as rude not to do this. So if Anon is in this kind of office I can see being annoyed. We get approval on being gone from manager (and any accommodations associated with it like being unpaid), run by our plan with them, then email out said plan as outlined above. It takes about 30 minutes total, usually, even with a lot of projects since you tend to know where you are on each of them.

            6. Observer*

              Your ok with your boss dropping the ball when he was swamped, but not with your CW not doing your boss’ job when SHE was swamped? Why?

              Keep in mind that she was not only losing her childcare for the week, her mother needed emergency surgery! That tends to have a LOT of ramifications, and it is certainly easy to understand how work was not at the top of her radar.

          2. Oxford Comma*

            This is on management. They’re responsible for the coverage. It’s not on your coworker.

            1. Jerry Vandesic*

              Need to be careful about asking management to solve the problem. Not long ago I worked at a company with a good amount of PTO. New mom needed to take much of that PTO early in the year for several family of family emergencies. She ran out of PTO by summer, and then tried taking unpaid time off. After the first unpaid day she got a warning. The second unpaid day was her last; manager fired her when she came in the next morning. This upset some of the employees, but many were glad to see her go so that the manager could replace her with someone they “could count on.”

        3. DataGirl*

          If she was taking the days unpaid and not PTO, I can understand not wanting to do any work for free.

        4. LCL*

          She calls out Monday morning for the whole week with no apology for the extra work? That is some bull, but she’s got other things on her mind. Not acknowledging the burden to the other employees, if you have that type of job where everything fits together and she knows it, is rude. Deal with it when she comes back.

        5. Observer*

          You actually don’t know what kind of effort she did or did not (or could) make.

          Does your company have a WFH policy? Depending on how your company is set up that way, that may not have been an option.

          Now, the fact that she didn’t say anything to you is not OK. But the fact that she didn’t come in after her husband came home is not something you have standing to comment on – you know nothing about his schedule of why they made that decision.

          What I would really like to know why your boss didn’t give you a heads up about this. It doesn’t seem like they were taking this seriously at all (which may also play into the WFH part of it. Like, if they were really worried, they would allow it, but since they don’t want to allow it need to act as though it’s no big deal.)

    9. Frankie*

      All kinds of math involved in this, and the math can be different for every individual child, family, location, etc.

      1) If grandpa is childcare, they may not be able to afford daycare or a sitter. Full time care for an infant is very, very expensive. I currently just barely afford day care and I have a reasonable salary for my area and a modest lifestyle. I would not be able to pay for a week of babysitting (and at a week of all-day caregiving, that’s a nanny, not a sitter). It would be more affordable for me to take unpaid leave than arrange a nanny for a week. And what nanny is just available for temping? A backup sitter is for a couple of hours on a random day, not a week.
      2) Day cares have waitlists. I can’t imagine a “drop in” day care for all kinds of reasons–people wait for months or years to get spots at good day cares. Day cares need to do their own intake–does the baby have vaccines, what’s the baby’s routine, who’s the doctor, etc etc etc. That’s not something you do for a baby you’ve never seen. Imagine the legal liabilities involved.
      3) You don’t just hand a 6-month infant off to anyone who is available. You have to vet them, and be sure they’ll be around a good while, because it’s really, really bad for an infant to be passed from one caregiver to another.
      4) She couldn’t call around on Monday–she was taking care of a 6 month old. Staying at home with a baby is not a day off.
      5) My husband has very little PTO and had no paternity leave. He takes a day off when he needs to but there’s 50/50 split with us, because it’s not how his job works.
      6) Sometimes the best thing for the baby is for mom to be home. If the routine is getting disrupted with grandpa away, that may be the best option for the kiddo. Some babies hate strangers that young.
      7) Maybe she’s also stressed about her mom being in surgery and can’t handle another thing?

      1. Anon for this*

        I appreciate the info and thanks for being informative without biting my head off, haha. I went anonymous for this because I figured people were going to think I am being callous about this, but I honestly was not aware that it is that hard to find a daycare. We are in a medium-sized city, so I’m sure there are plenty of daycares around, but I have no idea how full they normally are, and based on the replies, it is quite possible that she might not have been able to find one with an opening. I guess things have changed since I was younger, because I thought most daycares would take “drop-ins.”

        I was surprised about what happened because I don’t recall ever having a coworker who took an entire week off because of childcare issues. Maybe a day or two, but not a whole week, so I guess I assumed that most people planned for it and had some kind of backup arrangement, whether it was a daycare that accepted drop-ins or a babysitter (or a few babysitters) available on short notice.

        1. catsaway*

          I suspect that backup daycare is often family so if her regular daycare is family and she has a family emergency involving sugary of another close family member she and her spouse were probably out of options.
          I don’t have kids but from coworkers/bosses with kids I know infant daycare is $$$$, heavily regulated and there are often wait lists. There are probably after school care programs for school aged kids but not for babies.
          A while back there was an ask the readers thread about a woman who was thinking/planning of getting pregnant in the near future with or without a partner. Many of the recommendations were of the nature to have 2-3 daycare backups.
          This isn’t your fault and you can feel annoyed to have to have worked extra hours but situations like these illustrate why so many American women drop out of the workforce after having kids.

        2. Much too young to feel this damn old*

          You’re pretty far out of line on this, and I’m honestly having a hard time not being upset with you. Think of it from your coworkers’ perspective:
          1) She’s just returned from maternity leave is already exhausted, running on fumes, and trying to keep up with work and her very new familial responsibilities.
          2) Her parent has a health crisis.
          3) Finding backup care for any age of kid isn’t easy, but so much harder with an infant. And you have no idea what her husband’s situation may be, but I wouldn’t assume she’s “failing” to have an equitable workload in her marriage.

          This woman is enormously stressed and is spending all her time on caretaking at every level. No wonder she isn’t checking in with her workplace; when would she have the time to do that? I’m sorry you’re overworked, that sucks, but she’s dealing with a much more stressful situation.

          1. Dragoning*

            And if she doesn’t have an “equal” workload shared with her husband–she really does not need her coworker going off about it; she has enough problems.

          2. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

            She has a spouse, Nothing stopping him from helping out.

            1. Hylium*

              We have no idea what her spouse’s situation is. Maybe they were on a work trip out of the country. Maybe they have health issues. Maybe they had to be dealing with the daily health crisis. Maybe they’re a jerk who refused to do anything helpful. Who knows!? Point is, OP is being a jerk about someone who is having a really crappy stressful tine. That’s a pretty sh1tty thing to do.

              1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

                I don’t blame OP at all for being frustrated with a co worker who knew she was going to be gone and did not update the person picking up her workload with at what point her workload was at.

              2. I Took A Mint*

                Yeah I thought it was pretty easy to make the jump from “family medical crisis” to “husband is probably also busy with that,” not “husband is probably lazy and not pulling his weight with childcare.”

                Anon, you are making so many leaps and assumptions about how your coworker “should have” handled it, when you yourself admit that you don’t know how childcare works, you don’t know the details of her life, and your manager also dropped the ball on managing the team because they were stressed. It sucks that her absence caused more work for you, and it sucks that she was not more apologetic about it. But you are making a lot of assumptions and taking this very personally. Just chalk it up to “people make bad decisions when stressed” and move on.

        3. Overeducated*

          For context, my day care closes two weeks a year (summer and winter holidays), and I and most of the other parents literally plan our vacation around that. Even with notice, a week of backup care is a big deal. With no notice, my husband and i split the days, but we already pay so much for day care we don’t have a second babysitter on call and our family isn’t local.

          1. VelociraptorAttack*

            This is where my husband and I are. Our son is 6 months old and we’re already trying to figure out who takes what time during the week between Christmas Eve and Jan. 2nd when daycare will be closed. We don’t have family that is local and able to care for him. We’re lucky to be in jobs right now where we can do some remote work when he’s sick but mostly we just split it up depending on who has what going on if he needs to stay home sick.

        4. Midwest writer*

          Until I had kids, I had no clue how hard it was to find good child care and then keep it. Much of this would have shocked me before I became a parent.

          1. Frankie*

            Yeah, as a new parent, it’s easy from the outside to assume reliable, affordable childcare is not tough to find given a little due diligence. Or that if one family does X then every family could do X. Etc etc.

          2. CMart*

            Same. As a parent I was also really surprised by the reality that “idk probably generally trustworthy” is really really not good enough when it comes to finding someone to watch a <1 year old.

            I wouldn't be comfortable with it, but I would deal with leaving my 2.5 year old with a neighbor, or a friend's college aged cousin who babysits regularly if I really needed to. I would not prioritize my job absent the risk of losing it over leaving my 6 month old with anyone but a thoroughly vetted, highly trusted known entity. The risks are just too high. Babies die in the care of well meaning people who make unfortunate mistakes. I know I would foster ill will among my colleagues and probably harm my work reputation if I had to take a sudden week off, but it's a price I'm willing to pay before putting my baby in an unknown situation.

            That is not something I understood until I had my first baby and very little local support and found myself and my husband essentially housebound for the first year of her life.

        5. DataGirl*

          Many people’s back-up babysitters are family. She may be like me and have no other family that could come. In my case, our family is international and the closest is several states away. We don’t have any friends who could take our children for anything more than a couple hours. Whenever I have an emergency me and my husband are the only ones who can do anything.

        6. Wow.*

          I’m sorry people are being snippy with you. Your coworker not having reliable backup childcare should be her problem and not yours. It stinks that your team had to suffer because of this.

          1. Observer*

            It also stinks that her employer is so short staffed and that the manager could manage to communicate. But somehow that’s ok.

        7. Observer*

          It pretty much doesn’t matter how big the city is, backup childcare is EXTREMELY hard to find.

          I think it’s gotten a touch harder to find emergency child care because today anyone who is not working full time is not someone you are likely to just leave your child with without vetting in advance, and no one is letting a teen take off a week, or even a couple of days, to take care of your kid so you can go to work. When I was young it did occasionally happen that someone might let an older HS student do that.

      2. Pink Shoelaces*

        Just want to back you up that cost would absolutely be a consideration even if she could find a daycare that would take the baby for a week (something that is almost certainly not possible).

        My monthly daycare bill for two children is higher than my mortgage.

        1. DataGirl*

          When mine were little, I worked minimum wage nights at a grocery store- when my husband could be home with the kids, rather than take a job that paid twice that but was a 9-5, because after daycare costs I would have actually had less take home. Back then it ran $45/day/kid. That was in 2005, I bet it’s more now.

    10. Maya Elena*

      It is prudent and advised to have a backup sitter on retainer of some sort for short-term emergencies. Many people cultivate these – 4 hrs a week, or trades with neighbors, etc. These aren’t usually sufficient to cover a whole week full time though (e.g. the backup person works part time or is a student).

      However, she might have taken time unpaid, is borrowing from future vacation (depending on how it is accrued), god knows what arrangement she made with the boss. With children as with all other emergencies, there will always be a class of situations that don’t fall under “covered” emergencies, however generous the policy – getting more sick than you have sick leave, your great aunt’s death that doesn’t qualify you for bereavement leave, whatever. At some point shitty stuff happens and those it doesn’t happen to have to take on some of the slack and it sucks…. But it evens out in the end.

      Also she will be that much more grateful in the future, especially if people don’t all act resentful for her desertion on this particular week.

    12. xyz*

      On my area, you get on a list for months to agree to permanently enroll your child in a daycare. So, there would be no way to use this method to solve her problem. Babysitters don’t do week long requests without any notice because the individuala usually have their own jobs/classes/etc. They do a few hours at most. And you’re right, her division of labor with her husband isn’t really your business. Also, you don’t sound like you know her well enough to know that she didn’t try other methods. This end result could be after she already tried everything.

      Forgive me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like there is a lot of frustration and blame in your comment. A 70 hour week sounds awful and I’m sorry that your job pushed you to do that, but I’m not seeing how it will help you to judge your coworker for trying to make the best of a lot of crappy decisions. It seems like that would just breed more frustration and resentment.

    13. Beatrice*

      Echoing that it’s pretty normal to not have a backup plan in a case like that. The nice thing about having a retired grandparent as child care, is that she’s unlikely to need days off to care for a mildly ill baby, or a sudden weather-related daycare shutdown. I promise you, most parents of newborns in daycare take more than 5 days off in the first year for that stuff.

    14. Kathenus*

      Others have addressed that day care is hard to find so alternatives for a week with little notice might not be as easy as it might seem. On another part of this, as Maya Elena mentioned, you don’t know what she worked out about the time off, whether it’s paid or unpaid, and that’s between her and the organization. I get the frustration, I’m about to enter a period with two people on simultaneous maternity leave in my department and it’ll be a struggle to figure things out. So focus on the work part, what can (and can’t) you do extra to help take up the slack, and then communicate with your boss what’s realistic and ask for prioritization or other resources. It’s definitely not reasonable to just expect someone else to do double work, so be proactive on discussing this so that your boss knows the realities and can help be part of the solution.

    15. ThisColumnMakesMeGratefulForMyBoss*

      I realize the timing was not ideal for you and your team for her to be out unexpectedly for a week, but the same thing could have happened if she fell down the stairs, broke her leg and couldn’t work for a week. In other words, take the fact that she’s a new mother out of the equation. I see a lot of non-parent people writing in about how unfair it is that parents seem to get special treatment when they need time off. But honestly, as long as your work provides the same leniency to non-parents (or people with chronic illnesses, etc.) when unexpected things come up, it shouldn’t matter. Anything can happen to anyone at anytime, and sometimes the timing sucks.

      1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

        But most works don’t do that. Alex has a house emergency and can’t work and Chris’ kid is ill. Who do you think gets the time off?

    16. R*

      Sounds very frustrating for everyone. But backup care of any kind is very expensive. In my neighborhood, when my child is sick and can’t go to daycare, I pay $17-$20 an hour for a babysitter. For an entire work week, that adds up to $800 ish. Also, if it is your first kid, and they are very little, you just may not know who to call. It’s taken me nearly 2 years to get a backup and then a backup to my backup. And then another backup because no one wants to come out in the snow.

      1. DataGirl*

        Good point. Babysitters aren’t cheap any more. When I was a teen I’d charge $2/hr… now teens want $15-25/hr, even if it’s older kids and the sitter is just sitting on the couch, watching TV (this is a sore point for me).

        1. Autumnheart*

          That sounds like a pretty reasonable rate. I mean, when I started working at 15, minimum wage was $3.85/hr, but what exactly would that buy today? Inflation is a thing. Nobody’s going to watch anyone’s anything for $2/hr today.

          1. DataGirl*

            If it’s a nanny, it they have special skills, it they are cooking, cleaning, providing transportation, caring for infants/toddlers then yes: more responsibility =more pay. But for a date night or a couple hours after school with older children where all they do is sit in the couch, play with their phone, and be a physical presence in case of emergency, I don’t think they should be paid double minimum wage. Particularly when many minimum wage jobs are much more difficult.

            1. KX*

              Teenagers have very little free time these days. Very little. Their free time is very valuable. Rates go up.

              Babysitters have always sat around watching tv or talking on the phone, too. It’s how every horror movie has started since the 1970s.

            2. Observer*

              The fact that it’s a date night is not the concern of your babysitter. And if you’ve never had a babysitting job blow up on you, you’ve not done much babysitting.

              I did a lot of babysitting when I was a teen. And let me tell you that although there were plenty of times that I didn’t do much, I simply could NOT risk baby sitting when I needed to get something done. Because plenty of times I earned my pay – and then some. And even on the non-cray times, I couldn’t be sure I’d have the kind of uninterrupted time you describe.

              And this is for evenings after the kids are in bed. When you talk about daytime? Forget it.

              1. DataGirl*

                I did a ton of babysitting and I worked as a nanny for a year and I’ve done home daycare. I have had my share of troubles and while I anecdotally shared my 80’s wages, I wouldn’t expect sitters these days to earn less than minimum wage. I just disagree about them earning double minimum wage. Anyone who has worked retail, or as waitstaff, or in any number of low paying jobs knows how difficult they can be, physically, mentally, and spiritually. Childcare is no where near as hard.

        2. I Took A Mint*

          You should have charged more! 15 years ago I charged $10 an hour as a teen. I was paid to be there in case of emergencies and put the kids to bed. As an older adult today with more specialized skills and higher expectations (cooking/cleaning, etc) I’d charge more.

        3. iglwif*

          My teenager charges $15/hour for babysitting at someone’s house. She makes $14.something babysitting kids during services at our congregation, but that doesn’t require travel since it’s literally down the block.

          I don’t think she should be paid *less than minimum wage* to be responsible for someone else’s children, even if it is just for a few hours in the evening. (And wow, she is definitely not just sitting on the couch watching TV, even though most of her evening babysitting kids are 8+.)

    17. xarcady*

      A large metropolitan area will probably have some sort of emergency, drop-in daycare. It will be very, very expensive. You probably will have needed to register with the day care agency prior to needing the drop-in service. The day care may not be conveniently located or have hours that work for a given family’s schedule.

      Just the cost alone for the emergency or drop-in day cares would probably make it a better deal for your co-worker to stay at home with the baby.

      1. blackcat*

        Yes, there are centers near me that do drop in (Boston area)

        Generally you have to register/be on a list. And it’s at least $120/day which, while cheaper than a sitter, is crazy expensive.

      2. Observer*

        And you may not actually have any available in a location that is available to you. Most of NYC does NOT have decent backup daycare options.

      3. CMart*

        And I personally wouldn’t leave a 6 month old at a drop-in daycare, if they would even take a baby that young. They’re still so fragile, SIDS is still a concern, and positional asphyxiation still a risk that I’m not having anyone but someone I really, really trust watch my infant.

        If I won’t lose my job over it, I’d be choosing pissing off my coworkers over the low-but-still-real risk of my baby dying due to improper care.

        1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          Tere is a husband there, He could take time off you know, Maybe for his kid?

            1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

              Why not? Wife is on unpaid time off. He could have done the same so she could work.

    18. American Ninja Worrier*

      I don’t want to contribute to a pile-on, but I suspect this situation actually would have been easier to handle if the baby were, say, a year old. Infant care is more expensive and harder to find than care for older children, and she’s had less time to recruit and vet potential backups.

      It really sucks that her emergency coincided with your office’s emergency, but it’s probably unlikely to happen again. If she took a whole week off unpaid, it’s safe to assume there weren’t any better options.

    19. Kiki*

      She may have been taking that time unpaid or something? And if I weren’t being paid, I also wouldn’t be responding to emails or doing anything work-related.

      I think for babies under a year, it is extremely, extremely difficult to have alternate childcare arrangements. The options that do exist are usually very expensive or depend on having close friends and relatives nearby who have no important plans. It wasn’t an ideal occurrence, but I also don’t know if it’s worthwhile to speculate what she could have done better.

      2. Observer*

        In fact, if she was taking the leave unpaid, she is probably NOT ALLOWED to do stuff like email.

    20. LCL*

      A local story that has been making the rounds here is that the wait list for daycare is 2 years…
      From what I have read and been told, I don’t have any firsthand knowledge as I have no kids, is that there effectively isn’t any such thing as instant drop in daycare.
      It sounds like your office, like many offices, works bankers’ hours only. At some places she would be expected to come in after the husband was home to take over the childcare.

    21. motherofdragons*

      I could be wrong, but I’m sensing some resentment/blame you might be having toward your coworker, which I really understand. I’m just wondering if there’s an opportunity for you to take this concern off your plate. You say that you don’t know her PTO situation, and her division of labor in her marriage is none of your business. Truly, none of this is your business, and I say this with kindness! I can just imagine that stressing out about this, and doing work to figure it out, is adding on to your existing stress and frustration caused by your work crises (and by work I mean, you say you did the math about how much vacation time she had left…I assume you’re speaking figuratively, but that’s still brain power used).

      I’m trying to put myself in your shoes and just keep thinking, where was your boss in all of this? It’s their responsibility to manage workload issues that arise when an employee is out, not the employees themselves. What was your boss’ contingency plan? It sounds like it didn’t work out well for your team since there was so much stress involved. Maybe that’s just how things worked out, or maybe there was something that could’ve been done differently at the management level to even things out for everyone while still providing room for an employee to be out dealing with an important life issue.

    22. Madge*

      You know how they say it takes a village to raise a child? Well that village can be frustratingly hard to find, especially when you have an infant. Often preschool is the first chance a parent has to form a network. She could also be the first of her friends to have a child, or new to the area, or any number of things that make connecting with other parents and child-centered resources difficult. There just isn’t enough childcare in the US, very few drop-in centers that aren’t sick-care (and very few of those), and all of it is expensive. Infants need a lot of care and require the highest child to teacher ratio so infant care is the most expensive and hardest to find.

      This isn’t really about childcare, though, and that’s good because you can address it without sounding callous. She took a week off without notice to the people who would be covering her work. Her being gone caused you all to put in significant overtime to cover for her share in a crisis. She didn’t check-in at all or work during the evening or quiet moments. These all don’t have anything to do with the baby. Maybe you can talk to her about how you can coordinate next time something like this happens. You could also let your manager know how you all were affected by her absence.

      1. motherofdragons*

        “You could also let your manager know how you all were affected by her absence.”

        I would actually start (and end) there. Why didn’t the manager have a (better) contingency plan for an employee’s unexpected absence?

        A few more things that came up for me:
        – In my workplace, it would be unusual for someone with an unexpected absence to communicate directly with their coworkers. We communicate with my boss, who then puts a plan in place and communicates accordingly. This situation would not cause hard feelings at my office because that’s just not protocol.
        – It’s not clear that coworker’s absence CAUSED everyone to have to work overtime. It’s not an unreasonable conclusion, but not a foregone one. It also doesn’t have to be the coworker’s “fault” even if it is the case – it could just just be chalked up to, “This is sometimes what happens when we hire people with lives.”
        – Someone above made a good point that especially if the coworker is taking unpaid leave, why would she be checking in or doing any work? I’d take it further and say, if she’s taking time off in general, why would she do that? Frankly, I’m knackered after a day looking after my kids, so unless my boss is calling me up saying “We NEED you to log in and help with this, motherofdragons,” I wouldn’t be checking in either. We don’t know if the boss asked her to help, and she declined (which would suck). Or maybe she offered to, and the boss said “No, we’ve got this” (in which case, this is not her fault). There’s too many unknowns here to draw the conclusion that the coworker is at fault or needs to have done something differently or change something in the future, in my opinion.

        1. Observer*

          Good point on whether the absence was really the cause of the overtime. It sounds like people needed to work a total number of extra hours well over her workweek anyway. So, it sounds like the office wasn’t properly staffed to start with.

          Also on the calling in – a lot of people do it, but it’s often not a reasonable expectation.

    23. Jules the 3rd*

      I can not imagine a reputable child care center that would take a child on a week’s notice. Doubly so for an infant or toddler. Or a parent who would give their child to strangers based on a few calls. That is not a reasonable expectation. Depending on the area, commercial child care takes weeks to months to arrange. NYC has on average a 1-year waitlist for infants (I guess you sign up at the 1st pregnancy test and they take them at 3 / 4 months? It’s stunning, but true)

      Now, division of the week with her husband – that’s very reasonable. Or some kind of part-day work from home – 2 or 3 hours after her husband gets home. At 6mo, you may even be able to do some work during nap times, but it would be unpredictable.

      1. Humble Schoolmarm*

        Is it fair to assume that child care was her only responsibility during this time? If this was a serious situation and she doesn’t have other siblings close by there could have been a big need for her to spend time at the hospital, support her Dad, help with insurance issues, prepare her parents’ house for her mom’s recovery, order special equipment etc. I guess I’ve had a little too much experience with senior health emergencies lately, but they involve a lot of work which, in addition to taking care of a six-month old, might have made it difficult if not impossible to deal with work, even via email or coming in in the evenings.

        I also do have to put out there that, while it is unfortunate that you and others in your office had to shoulder an extra burden because of this, it troubles me that your coworker is being judged fairly harshly for putting her family first during a challenging time. I’m not sure that it’s right, on a broader scale, to say definitively that work emergencies should be prioritized over personal emergencies.

    24. Grandma Mazur*

      This is a really interesting question (it’s not one I would have thought about at all before having a child!). Sadly, even the nursery our elder (18 months) is enrolled in doesn’t typically have space for him on a day he doesn’t usually go (he’s there three days a week), and they won’t take anyone under 6 months (when they first opened the lower age limit was 12 months).

      When first starting, settling in days were required (3 sessions across two weeks) — not to mention the waiting list is now more than three months to get in. And we didn’t get our first choice of sessions/days.

      Babysitters who are available during the day are typically also booked up a week in advance (or more). And, although in a crisis either of us could take time off if really necessary, the truth is that my husband earns more than I do, and it’s a very small firm so his absence is even more impactful. Both of which mean that it makes more sense for me to take the time off if it’s going to be unpaid…

    25. iglwif*

      Yeah, no, the odds of being able to call around on Monday and find childcare for the rest of the week for a six-month-old baby are … very, very poor.

      Legally, caregiver:child ratios have to be much higher for infants than for older kids. Daycares fill up fast and stay full — they’re not keeping spaces open just in case. For a preschool-aged kid, you might be able to get a friend or family member to fill in, or get someone’s nanny or home daycare to stretch the ratio a little, but babies are a lot trickier! (And tbh I have trouble even finding *dog*-sitting on a day’s notice, never mind babysitting for an actual baby.)

      You can certainly argue that parents *should* have backup childcare plans in place for this kind of emergency, but (a) that is way less easy than it might sound, (b) in reality, most people don’t, and (c) when they do, they tend to plan for like … relatively predictable emergencies. (In this situation, if anyone in the family had expected Bubby to get very ill, presumably Zaidy wouldn’t have relocated to be caregiver for your CW in the first place, so it’s fairly safe to say this was not a predictable emergency.)

      I do agree that ideally, parents should plan to share the work of staying home with kids when they’re sick or the childcare falls through.

      Emergency on-call nanny services do exist in some places, although these tend to be pretty expensive.

    26. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

      I want to know why Dad didn’t do half the week.

      1. DataGirl*

        Maybe his work didn’t allow him. Maybe he didn’t have any PTO banked. Maybe mom wanted to be with baby. Maybe mom needed to be the one home so she could concurrently help her parents during the emergency. Lots of possibilities.

        1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

          So she can screw up her job and he can’t do his? It is his kid. I imagine he could take off as easily as she could–probably easier as she was out of PTO.

          1. Ash*

            You are doing a LOT of imagining here, based on eff all. I get that it’s frustrating when fathers don’t pull their weight, but you are basically ranting about a situation you have very little information about, making wild unsubstantiated assumptions and generally just making sh1t up.

            And ultimately, it makes no difference to the actual question so is unhelpful and pointless.

            1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

              Plenty of people are imagining here–that this woman had no family nearby, that day care isn’t close, that Dad may have no PO, etc. So why get upset when I ask about dad?

              1. Observer*

                No one is “imagining” anything about the day care situation – we’re all talking from experience. Short term, backup daycare is pretty much impossible to find for infants unless your work happens to provide it.

                1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

                  There is another parent here. We have no idea if there’s family who could have done it, etc, We are all imagining what could be. We talk about our experiences but have no idea of the situation. My imagining is no different than anyone’s else’s imagining that co worker has no family, that her Dad needed help, that there was no one around to help, etc.

          2. Doug Judy*

            He could have also been out of PTO too, or just started a new job or a million other reasons. If one of us needed to take unpaid time off it came down to math. I make more than he does, so he stays home. When he made more, I stayed home.

            As a working mother for the past 13 years, the guilt we feel for missing work due to childcare issues is real. And this post is why. We are judged for not handling it they way other people think we should. You aren’t her boss, you admit you don’t know the details of her life, so stop judging this, it is in no way your place. It was a sucky week. Sucky weeks happen. She had stressful and sucky week too.
            Extend her some grace. Some day you might have a crisis and I’m sure you’d appreciate your coworkers giving you the benefit of the doubt. Even if you are lucky enough to never have an emergency that requires you to miss a week of work, you can never go wrong in being empathetic to others. Let it go.

            1. TheFacelessOldWomanWhoSecretlyLivesinYour House*

              Parents are given far more leeway for their emergencies than most. Someone needs time off because babysitter is ill, they usually get it. Someone needs time off to care for an ill pet, people judge far more harshly. Someone wants a day off because Johnny’s in the school play, they ask the non parent to cover them. Non parent wants an afternoon off for their activities, parents often don’t return the favor. Are all companies/parents like this? No but many are. (Recall the company allowing parents to take holidays and made the non parents cover and then it was creeping into weekends). That’s not uncommon.

  24. ThreeStars*

    Sorry for double posting. Just thought of another question I had about interviews!

    How do you guys answer the question, “What kind of manager do you like to work with?”

    All the manager’s I’ve had were never around much (always in meetings or away from their desk for other reasons), so I don’t know what kind of manager I would want to work with since I really haven’t been exposed to different management styles. I explain this and just say I’d like a manager who I can get in contact with if I questions or if something urgent comes up. I feel like the interviewers are looking for something more specific though and I’m not sure how to answer.

    1. irene adler*

      My take: are you going to require a lot of hand-holding or can you operate with minimum supervision?

    2. Competent, I swear!*

      If you haven’t had much experience with different management styles, I would turn this around into an answer about *your* skills. For example, just off the top of my head:

      “I haven’t had a lot of experience with different management styles, but my personal working style is to be able to work independently without too much supervision, while being able to raise issues for escalation when appropriate. I communicate well, and can be quite innovative at times, so having a manager open to change, that I can occasionally bounce ideas off, would be ideal. Ultimately, I’m looking to develop my skills in [teapot design], so I work be thrilled with an experienced manager who I could learn from.”

      ….that type of thing?

      1. ThreeStars*

        That’s an excellent script! Mentioning working independently is very true for me (I like to be able to just get things done without having to spend a lot of time waiting on other people for approval, input, etc.). And wanting to be able to “raise issues for escalation” and “occasionally bounce ideas off” someone sounds much better than my “be available to contact with questions or emergencies.”

      2. VainaLoca*

        I love to ask this question in interviews!

        I ask it for a few reasons: 1) I think it gives insight into how an employee works in practice (do they need a lot of individual attention?; are they a team player?; are they organized?; do they go on a rant about a bad manager they once had?) A lot of people will offer up valuable information about themselves when responding that I maybe wouldn’t have gotten by asking “Are you organized?”; 2) At my organization specifically, a person can have a direct supervisor but work with a lot of others who are their managers on specific projects. So, sometimes I want to know if they can work with many different styles of managers.

        Aside from ranting about a terrible boss, you can’t go too wrong on this question. If you’d had absentee managers, that’s a real strength, because you’re typically independent. If you’re craving a manager who’s more involved, you can say you like a manager who’s collaborative and willing to “talk ideas through.” And exactly what you wrote above is a fine answer.

  25. Stephanie*

    I’m working the booth for my company at a big conference next week. Any suggestions or tips? What footwear would people recommend?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      COMFORTABLE. I like Skechers slip-on shoes (Go Walk or whatever they call them now.)

    4. AliceBD*

      Your two most comfortable pairs of appropriate shoes, if possible. Alternate days: pair 1 day 1, pair 2 day 2, pair 1 day 3, etc. I’ve found it helps keep my feet less tired than wearing the exact same pair every day.

      Also, if you can bring a ball or a water bottle or something to roll your feet on at the end of the day, that’s super helpful. My mom introduced me to using spiky dryer balls, which are very similar to the purpose-made devices for rolling your feet on but are more readily available and dirt-cheap.

      Unless you are the biggest extrovert ever, hopefully you’ll be rooming by yourself. Give yourself time to go back to your room and sit in silence every day. This will probably be necessary for your mental health, even if it isn’t something you have to think about the rest of the time.

      1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

        I second the switching out shoes. It’s amazing how different parts of your feet get tired. Even adding/removing socks or insoles during the day can help.

        1. Wishing You Well*

          Yes, bring back-up socks, too. Switch out socks and shoes mid-shift every day, if possible. Let the first pair of shoes rest until the beginning of the next shift.
          I hope your booth is a BIG SUCCESS!

      2. Syfygeek*

        Please give yourself a few minutes to decompress. I’m more extrovert than introvert, but at these things, I have to have some alone time.

        If in a hotel room, I like going into the bathroom, cutting on the fan and turning on the water to create white noise for a few minutes. Plus you can use the water bottle or something on your feet while you’re in there.

    5. Emily S.*

      I recommend some good insoles, such as Dr Scholl’s gel ones, in whatever shoes you go with.

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        Or stick some moleskin pads to the part of your feet that tend to get sore… it’s surprisingly helpful.

      2. Auntie Social*

        Dr. Scholl makes good thin orthotics, too. And Syfygeek is on to something when he talks about rolling a bottle of water or soda can under your feet. The cold feels great.

    6. Kat in VA*

      Oof, I’m doing the same – working all day at a conference but since it’s super formal, I have to wear a suit and heels. I found some good wedge heels that are very comfortable but I’m definitely going to have to get insoles. Not looking forward to it (starting around 06:00 and then probably ending around 22:00 with the afterparty!)

  26. Amber Rose*

    OK, I know gifts are supposed to only go downhill. But for the last two weeks, everything around here has been going to hell, we’ve been unable to actually do business for days at a time, and we’ve lost weeks worth of sales data that had to be located and re-entered. It’s been a nightmare and the majority of the work related to it has landed on my boss. I think she’s been crying. We found a thing online we think would help cheer her up a little. It’s not a big thing or a very expensive thing, it’s a silly cardboard decoration thing. We were thinking we might chip in and order it for her. Would that be super weird?

    Aside from that, any ideas on how to not show my despair on my face? As part of this whole nightmare, because I was getting an error message nobody else was, they decided (falsely) that my computer was the problem and did a complete wipe, then wouldn’t let me install anything back on. I had to only use online apps all week, I lost a ton of stuff that I didn’t have time to back up and I’ve had to kind of rebuild from scratch. Also my computer is new and everything else is old and I spent an actual whole day just trying to get my printers set up again. It’s frustrating and upsetting and hard and I’ve been trying to shrug it off as business needs and go with it but it’s basically been making my life hell all week for no reason (my computer was not the problem, obviously) and I’ve been struggling very hard not to cry myself.

    1. dramalama*

      Damn that sounds awful. I think part of the “gifts only go downhill” thing is “gifts that are kindof a bribe”. This silly cardboard thing sounds like it’s as much to cheer everybody up as it is for your boss. If you have unanimous approval from the whole team (and not just a few people pushing everybody else to go along with it) I think it would help you all get over how lousy it’s been.

    2. Working with professionals*

      I think in this situation, go ahead and get the thing for the boss and give yourself whatever “fluffy extras” you can – a nice hot chocolate with extra marshmallows, some of your favorite brand of chocolate (you can see I’m a chocolate centric person) or whatever else makes you feel happy. Maybe sneak in some fuzzy slippers for under the desk. Whatever feels like a little pampering at the office and if possible, add some at home too. Hang in there!

    3. Ama*

      That sounds so hard! I think the cardboard decoration sounds more equivalent to a card or a nice note, not like gifting something expensive, and I bet it would mean a lot to your boss.

      As far as despair face, I have NO poker face so I’m probably not the best person to ask (there is a reason I’m super grateful to be in a tall cubicle where people can’t just walk by and see my face) but one thing I try to do when things are super stressful at work is take things one at a time and then allow myself a break — whether that’s to get up and walk to the water cooler, take a leisurely stroll to the bathroom (ours is far away so it is excellent for getting a few minutes of exercise in). When things are really bad I’ll go on a coffee run so I can get out of the office entirely for a minute. It helps keep me from getting overwhelmed by the full impact of the situation.

    5. SarahKay*

      Definitely go for it with the gift, it sounds like a lovely thought.

      With regards to your despair over the (unnecessary) computer refresh, I’m afraid I have no advice, but sending you lots of sympathy.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      I don’t think this is the kind of gifting-up the rule applies to. It would be a very nice thing to do for her. And I echo the other advice to treat yourselves as well to something that will lift your spirits.

    7. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      As someone that’s been the boss in a similar situation I’d feel insulted at receiving a silly cardboard thing “to cheer me up”, would have made things better if you (team) had offered to help out instead of letting it all fall on the boss!

      1. Amber Rose*

        We obviously did offer to help out, we’re not assholes. But fixing it is a one person job. Adjustments can only be done by one person in single-user mode, and she’s the only one aside from the accountant who knows how to do it so it doesn’t eff our books. The most help we were able to give was to stay out of her way and not be distractions.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        You sound…easily bothered.

        Amber Rose, please don’t think of a light hearted “cheer up” kind of thing that you’re thinking about as “gifting up”.

        Novelty gifts are always okay in these situations. It’s nominal, nobody is pressured to chip in, etc. It’s the same as a card or a coffee mug with some candies stuffed in it. It’s on par with a heart felt thank you or when kids give their teachers apples or other gestures.

        I’ve been there before and having a staff who understands I’m stressed and is clearly sympathetic is very much appreciated. I have had some bad days that sound similar and a staffer who brings me some candy from their candy dish and a “I know you’re swamped, I just wanted to let you know that you’re appreciated” kind of thing makes a world of difference.

        Some things simply cannot be farmed out. As an accountant who has had books crap the bed, I am all too aware of that nonsense.

    8. Cartographical*

      I would totally get it. Gifts should go downhill because power creates obligation where there should be none. This is more a one-time gesture that says you see your boss as a *person* who is doing their best in a hard time and that you appreciate them. Your boss is probably feeling isolated and overwhelmed and a small, non-practical, “novelty” gift like that is really a physical manifestation of the kindness and support you feel for them — the person, not just the boss.

    9. Observer*

      Oh, and by the way, your IT setup stinks!

      But if you don’t mind, I’m going to keep your story as part of my “war stories” repertoire.

  27. Happy Friday!*

    I have a question that is somewhat related to work. How do people find the time to exercise while they are working a full time job? I work 9 hours per day+1 hour commute+1.5 hours getting ready in the morning+1 hour cooking and eating dinner+8 hours of sleep… just how do people find the time/energy? Once I am finally done for the day, I just plop down on the couch and that is just where I am until bed time since I feel so drained.

    1. It's hard, I know*

      I go approx. once a week to a barre studio within walking distance from my job. I used to go to the gym early on weekends when I was working insane hours just to get in some type of workout. I wish I had the time and energy to go more.

      Would meal prepping help with eliminating the 1 hour cooking you do most nights?

      1. Happy Friday!*

        Cooking is just kind of my way to unwind at the end of the day, I have been trying to make more of an effort recently to cook every night just because it is one of my favorite things to do. That is a good idea though, maybe I could meal prep like 2-3 nights a week and workout then then cook every other night?

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          plus 30 min prep + 30 min eating is really reasonable.

          I’d look harder at the 1.5 hrs getting ready. Can you cut that down at all? A different haircut to minimize styling needs, or a work look that needs less time? Hanging up clothes or prepping lunch the night before?

          Look for ways to build exercise into your day, of course – a few flights of stairs at work every day is surprisingly helpful. Walking faster, standing during phone calls, etc .

          The other thing is maybe a ‘light exercise’ option instead of the couch – my mom rides a stationary bike while watching TV. It’s not cheap and takes up space, but you could do resistance stretches with bands – inexpensive and small space. Strength work, not aerobic, but both help, and this plus aerobic on weekends, maybe it’s enough?

          I used to do pilates in my lr before / after work, 10 minutes 2x/day, and it was pretty good, but then we got a dog who thinks anything on the floor = play time.

    2. De Minimis*

      I couldn’t really do this on a consistent basis until I had a shorter commute time [also earlier working hours can help.] As long as I can get home by around six I can exercise an hour.

    3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      I do home exercise with some hand weights and aerobics. It’s easier to crunch in around the edges, and as long as I can get in some more intense workouts once or twice a week, just doing something every day is a huge help, even if it’s only for as long as the pasta water takes to boil.

    4. alphabet soup*

      A lot of people in my office go to the gym during their lunch hour, and they’ll grab food and eat at their desk while they work.

      I just don’t see how it’s possible to squeeze it into the day otherwise.

    5. AnotherAlison*

      If I go to the gym in the morning, I spend 30 minutes getting ready. At home, it’s usually an hour, but I’m just faster there. I certainly don’t spend an hour cooking/eating, and 8 hrs sleep never happens. I’m not trying to be snarky, but the reality of a demanding job and trying to have a life just kind of sucks and something will give way.

      My youngest kid is 14 and shouldn’t need support in the morning, but he does, and my husband is there to take care of making sure he gets on the bus and the pets.

      Sometimes I do work out at night, and the trick is to go home, change to workout clothes and start doing something. I don’t eat or plop on the couch till after.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        +1 to your last paragraph. I’m the same way. I come home, take my makeup off, change into my workout gear, and head for the gym. I don’t give myself a chance to get settled in my apartment or I would never go run or to yoga/Pilates.

    6. Dragoning*

      I go for walks, etc. on lunch break.

      Also I don’t spend that long getting ready in the morning because I personally don’t need to, which helps.

      1. Happy Friday!*

        I keep trying to cut down my morning time, but I have to shower in the morning (my hair is a holy terror otherwise), full makeup is the norm for my office, then feed and play with my cat for a while in the morning so he gets a little attention in.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Look hard at shorter routines / shortcuts for full makeup (maybe online tutorials? Makeup Geek has some tips, but I bet there’s others).

          On the shower, are there any comfortable / appropriate do’s that would let you skip the shower, like braids the night before, done while you’re on the couch? And would you be able to parley that into usable time, by going to work earlier / getting out earlier / going to the gym OR by gymning in the evening / sleeping later?

          Don’t skimp the sleep.

        2. TechWorker*

          I’m not sure if you run at all, but if you considered taking it up then morning runs are great (I can’t claim to do this *often* but I’ve done it sometimes!). If you’re going to shower etc anyway then you can get a decent run into 25-30minutes – even if you do that only once or twice a week you’ll def see an improvement in fitness levels! Plus motivation is way easier if it’s the first thing when you get up, and you get to feel virtuous all day :p

    7. dramalama*

      Two of the people in my office have just gotten under-the-desk elliptical machines, which isn’t perfect but they’ve really loved it so far. If that’s not workplace appropriate where you are, I can also testify that getting a machine where I could workout at home cut down on the time commitment of going to a gym way more than I anticipated, and makes collapsing on the couch way more satisfying.

      1. Happy Friday!*

        I do actually have the under-desk elliptical as well but it just doesn’t really do much for me exercise-wise other than preventing a sore back from sitting all day.

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        This is my plan if I end up back in an on-site position. It’s not a heavy duty workout, but a little bit for several hours is still better than nothing.

        Similarly, I have a mini-stepper at home and my tendency is to try to do 20-25 minutes on it most days, even if I can’t fit in anything else workout-wise. Mine was under $100 on Amazon and fits under my coffee table when not in use – I use it in the living room and watch TV or listen to a podcast while I’m on it. It can also be turned around and pedaled like an exercise bike, if one is sitting down.

    8. INeedANap*

      I have a similar set up – normal 8 hr day, an hour commute each way, 45-50 minutes to get ready in the morning.

      I usually get a 30 minute walk in at lunch; I eat at my desk before/after. Then on the weekends I make a point to do something active both Saturday and Sunday – a hike, kayaking, if it’s winter and all I can do is walk laps at the mall then that’s what I do.

      I wish I had the time and energy for more, but I just can’t make it work for me.

      1. Happy Friday!*

        I do try to go for a walk every day at lunch, unfortunately I have been having some issues with the muscles in my ankles recently so I had to cut back.

    9. AliceBD*

      I go to the gym before work, because I can’t make myself go after. Also, it takes me WAY less time to get ready at the gym than at home, for some reason. Like half the time.

    10. Mashed potato*

      I used to workout in the morning at 5-6am before my work wants me at work earlier with the new changes. Though I would sleep at 10-11pm a couple months ago. Now I go workout in the evening after the evenjbf crowd ends so maybe like 8-9 pm sound ideal but I been arriving to gym at 9. I would recommend cooking a bigger portion if you bring food to work so you can also microwave dinner early and do evening work out. Or go early af in the morning. My commute to or from work is 40 mins to an hour dependnf when, for one direction.
      Imo it’s mental energy from work that drains you. But I’m a broke person and I paid for my gym andget my money worth and i have other motivations for going to gym so haha. Honestly just do some physical activities when you can. having some, maybe shitty, workout is better than no workout. If you have spouse or partner maybe they can help with motivation or planning

    11. ANon..*

      Two words: Meal prep.

      Make three large-batch meals on Sunday. (I usually do one in a crock pot to make it easier.) This can save you a ton of time as well as the mental energy of figuring out what to have for dinner that night.

    12. MlleJennyfair*

      Exercise is completely related to work – your work output correlates with your health, energy level, and mood, and exercising boosts each of these – it hits the trifecta!
      Please, o please try to use one of those 9 hours for YOU. It sounds like you’re on a path to burnout – be kind to yourself and start taking a lunch. Besides being entitled to it, lunchtime is the best time: doing some type of activity gives you a huge energy boost for the afternoon and it breaks up your day. Go outside for a walk, find a nearby gym and use a cycle or elliptical, walk up and down the stairs in your building – anything to get your blood moving. You’ll hate the first 5 minutes, but love how you feel when you’re done – and you won’t believe how ready you’ll feel to take on the rest of your day.
      Start small and short – 2 days for 20 minutes – then 3 days for 30, 3 days for 45 – commit to this for a month and see if it affects your work, your attitude, and your bod.
      You deserve a mini-vacation each day! Zone out, get some oxygen, listen to your fave music, and be nice to you.

    13. gecko*

      I don’t work, commute, or get ready for as long as you do, and that’s how.

      I think taking walks on your lunch break and finding some chair yoga could be good additions to your workday, but it sounds like you’re probably resisting adding an exercise habit to your after-work routine because it’s just too much, and that’s completely ok.

      If you can cut down on any parts of your routine, that might help, but I know it might not be possible (or welcome). For instance spending less time getting ready even if it means having less-polished hair. Moving closer to work or changing your commute so it’s more restful. Just, being drained all the time stinks, so don’t beat yourself up for not finding the time to work out. Good luck, and I hope your schedule improves soon.

      1. Happy Friday!*

        Unruly is a nice word for my hair, it takes about 10-15 minutes to get it somewhat tamed for work, unfortunately everyday cannot be a ponytail day. I own a home on the outskirts of town, I live in a capital city so moving closer to work (which is in the heart of downtown) isn’t really an option.

        I just keep gaining weight since I graduated from college because I feel like I have no time (even though I know I do) and my metabolism just plummeted.

        It just makes it harder because my mother is basically an energizer bunny. She is up at 5 am to work out for an hour and a half, comes home and works out for another hour and a half… then bemoans that I am not taking the time to take care of myself.

        1. ANon..*

          Yikes, that sounds tough. :( But keep in mind the differences between your situation and your mom’s. Commuting in and of itself, although sedentary, can be very draining/tiring, and could be a huge difference in your energy levels!

          Also, if you’re finding that it’s just to much to get yourself to the gym, you can get some dumbbells and exercise at home using Youtube videos (I love Bodyfit by Amy!)

          1. Happy Friday!*

            Thanks! Sorry if I sound like I am trying to have a pity party. My mom also works 20 hours a week so she has quite a bit more free time. Traffic is usually a disaster so you are definitely right there, clutching the steering wheel white knuckeled for an hour a day gets to be a lot.

            1. Autumnheart*

              If it makes you feel any better, I have a similar schedule and a similar problem trying to figure out where the workout should happen. I get up at about 6, leave for work at about 7:45 (and I’m not exactly dawdling while getting ready—maybe 10-15 minutes each for shower, hair and makeup), leave work at about 4:30, get home between 5:30-7 (I try to run errands during my evening commute, so I’m not making separate trips on the weekend), do chores and prep my lunch for the next day, get ready for bed at about 9 and try to be asleep by 10.

              Ideally, I would a) get up at 5 and go to the gym near my house, or b) go to the gym at my work at 4:30 and save some time in rush hour, but either way, I’m looking at having literally 1-2 hours a night to get everything done at home if I want to get 8 full hours of sleep.

              Once it warms up (I live in a region with a long winter), it’ll be easier to go do outdoor stuff on the weekends, so I tell myself. I also work on a large campus, and do get several thousand steps a day by taking walks around the buildings a couple times a day.

        2. gecko*

          Right, it’s definitely sometimes not possible, or not possible at this time. I certainly don’t mean to suggest, well, you can “just” do these things and it’ll all be fixed! What I do want to suggest is that even with the scope of your question just limited to “how do I exercise” you sound pretty tired and bummed, and it may be worth seriously thinking about whether you want to make sacrifices in some parts of your life to gain back some time. Not an easy thing to do because sacrifices are sacrifices.

          I don’t think you’re trying to have a pity party (kinda subtweeting your other comment here) but it sounds like you’re kinda bummed out and you haven’t found something that works for you, and possibly that you’re getting pressure from your mom to lose weight & live your life differently. You’re not going to start exercising again until you find something that makes you feel good and that fits into your life. Asking yourself to sacrifice parts of your life for exercise won’t work–but it might be worth it to see if you can give yourself more of a work-life balance even if your life right now will change.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            +1 to this.

            Also, I don’t want to derail / discourage you on exercising, but weight is usually 80% diet and only 20% exercise. So exercise because it makes you feel better, more energetic, more alert, but separate that from any concerns you have about weight.

            1. Autumnheart*

              Weight is primarily diet, but strength and cardiovascular health are definitely based on exercise. My aching back would like to offer a PSA about not neglecting your core and flexibility if you have a sitting job. Brb going to do some planks.

    14. Emily S.*

      Good question. Strenuous workouts are reserved for weekend mornings.

      I also do short walks on lunch hours – 20-30 minutes of brisk walking outside, or in nasty weather, in some large stores nearby.

      1. Ama*

        This — I try to get in a few 20-30 minute workouts during the week and save any longer workouts for weekends. I also do all my working out at home because it saves me time getting to and from the gym.

        I’ve also found I respond well to short term challenges — I’ve done six week yoga programs, the burpee challenge, etc., because I’m better at sticking to the schedule if I know there’s an endpoint than if it is just some nebulous routine I’m going to have to do forever.

      2. CM*

        I struggle with this too, but having a weekly running date with a group of friends is super helpful. We get together at 8 a.m. Sunday morning and go for a 3-mile run in a local park — there are 8 of us total, but usually 4 or so on a given day. It’s fun, it doesn’t interfere with work or family stuff because of the timing, it doesn’t require planning because we do it every single week, and it’s a great way to start off the new week. I also have a weekly yoga class that I try to attend. That’s 2 workouts a week, one on a weekday and one on a weekend — some weeks I do better, but even on really crazy weeks it feels manageable to carve out those two hours.

    15. MonteCristo85*

      I do it a couple of ways, the biggest of which is I meal prep on the weekends. Also, I’ve trimmed down my morning routine to an hour, but then I have an total 1.5 hour commute so it balances I guess. I have a stand up desk at my office, plus I get out an walk around the building once or twice a day (morning and afternoon breaks). I kind of go back and forth between an easy and a hard workout each day, so one day may be 90 minutes, and the next only 30-45.

      The thing is, as easy as it is to plop down on the couch at the end of the day, after about of week of regular exercise you will actually have more energy. Its that first 7-10 days of getting in the routine and working through the tired that’s tricky. You have to make sure you are eating good healthy food too, and drinking plenty of water.

    16. Minerva McGonagall*

      Following along to get some more tips!

      Going to a gym/class didn’t work well for me year round. In my old job, which I lived really close to, they offered fitness classes during the lunch hour and right after work, and that was nice to do over the summers when it was lighter work-wise. I now have a stationary bike because I liked the spin classes and I’ll put on a show and just pedal away. I haven’t been as consistent since starting a new job farther away from home so I’m trying to break the couch habit too!

      Something that helped to keep me accountable was a to-do app called Done. I’m pretty goal driven so meeting my monthly or daily goal is an added boost for me.

    17. Hold My Cosmo*

      Good question. I’m already getting up at 4:45 to make it to work by 6:30, and I absolutely refuse to get up at 3:00 to work out. Not doing it. I’d rather die young.

      I have stopped cooking dinner, though. It’s just habit and tradition that makes us think we have to sit down to a hot meal at night. There’s nothing wrong with a large salad or a sandwich for dinner.

    18. Zephy*

      I joined a gym that was on the way home (or at least, not too far out of the way). If I went home first, it was a lot harder to talk myself into going back out again than it was to talk myself into making a stop on the way. I do laundry on Sundays and pack a week’s worth of gym clothes in my gym bag. (Non work-related aside: If you wear long pants/leggings to work out, you can roll your workout kit into a convenient sausage for transport: Fold the pants in half hip-to-hip, then lay them out on a flat surface. Fold your shirt and lay it on top of the pants, aligned with the waistband. Lay a pair of socks, a sports bra if you wear one, maybe spare underwear if you need on top of the shirt, then start rolling it all together from the top. About 8-10 inches from the bottom, flip one leg over the roll and turn the other leg inside out over the outside of the roll to hold it together, similar to how you would ball up a pair of socks, if that makes sense.)

      Knowing that I was paying $x/month for access to the gym helped me shame-motivate myself to actually go, but that doesn’t work for everyone.

    19. Not A Manager*

      Since you value the cooking time, and you also want to work out, could you compromise by alternating cooking evenings and workout evenings? Maybe you could make extra one night for dinner the next, or prep something easy that you can make the next night. On the “cooking” nights, you could so some simple stretching for 10 minutes.

    20. Natalie*

      It sounds like it isn’t just a time issue, but also an energy issue. You might find that going before work or between work and home allows you to fit in a workout before you’re totally wiped out.

      Could you change how you do dinner one or two nights a week? Maybe take a class and then pick up dinner and eat it on your way home?

    21. ContemporaryIssued*

      Look for high intensity work outs that basically back a lot of stuff into 20-30 mins. Then a quick shower, go on with your evening. You can usually do these at home with minimal equipment since they use a lot of bodyweight exercises. Super efficient as it gets your heart rate up.

    22. Anonymous Educator*

      Honestly, I don’t know. I used to have a long commute (1.75-2 hours each way), and I got zero exercise then. Now I take one bus to work (no transfers) in less than 30 minutes, and I get my exercise by walking halfway home on the way home and then taking the bus home the rest of the way.

    23. American Ninja Worrier*

      It’s very hard! Meal prep (or just eating a PB&J instead of cooking some nights) could help — cook two or three nights a week, then work out the other two or three nights a week. Finding a place close to work could help, especially if you can squeeze exercise in over your lunch. Or, what if you shifted some of your getting-ready activities to the evening so you could work out in the mornings?

      Personally, I make it a point to work out every weekend and then try to squeeze in another day if I can. It may seem like people who work out regularly are magic, but most of them are just making some real sacrifices somewhere.

    24. San Juan Worm*

      I take transit and work long hours most days. I try to walk the first or last mile-and-a-half of my commute home to get in some physical activity. I aim for three days a week. If traffic is congested, walking can actually be faster than sitting on the bus — earlier this week, I walked three miles before my bus caught up with me.

    25. yup*

      If you can find a gym on your way home from work, that would probably be the easiest way to fit it in. Otherwise, YouTube workout videos that you can do from home are awesome.

      Also, I recently gave up eating dinner as a form of habit – I only eat/cook if I am hungry. It took a couple weeks for my body to adjust and I’m not saying this is right for everyone (so please don’t jump on me), but I have actually found that I feel better on just two meals per day unless I am hungry in the evening and it’s given me a lot of time back to be productive in other ways. Working out tends to be a good distraction – I know some people are starving after workouts, but for some reason I am the opposite.

      1. DataGirl*

        I am similar in that I usually want a snack right when I get home from work, then have no desire for dinner. I can’t wait until my kids are grown and out of the house so i don’t have to cook anymore.

    26. The Gollux (Not a Mere Device)*

      I joined a gym that was a couple of blocks from my office, and exercised on my lunch hour (and then ate a container of yogurt at my desk and let that be lunch).

      On some days I went after work instead — work, exercise, shower, take the subway home–but I admit that it helps if you can find an exercise that helps you relax instead of winding you up or feeling like a slog.

    27. Coverage Associate*

      I don’t. I try to do a walk on Saturday and a full gym workout on Sunday, but that’s all I get in. Very occasionally I can have a quick dinner and workout in the evening, or find the time on a work from home day.

      I have a Fitbit, which I set to remind me to get up and just take a walk around the office every hour during the work day.

    28. Chaordic One*

      I hope this doesn’t derail the conversation. We used to have an onsite gym at my workplace. (It’s a federal agency.) And several other gyms in the area complained about it being unfair competition and so it was removed. We still have the locker rooms with showers and they are used by employees who bike to work (and on the down low, they are used by employees who are, for all practical purposes, homeless.) Since we only have half hour lunch breaks having an onsite gym would sure be convenient. Sometimes you just don’t have an extra 10 to 15 minutes for the admittedly short commute to an offsite gym.

      There was a similar situation with the vending machines in the break rooms where area businesses complained about them. It ended up that the current vending machines are operated by an organization that donates all profits to a charity. (I think it is for blind people or something like that.)

    29. Aggretsuko*

      You don’t work out on weekdays is probably what you’ll have to do. I’ve given up on weekday workouts myself. I try to walk around as much as I can during the day during break times + lunch.

    30. Elizabeth West*

      Well, when I was working, I’d just change into workout clothes as soon as I got home and take a walk. During winter, it was also very dark out, which made walking less safe since there are a couple of places without sidewalks. There was a gym right next to Exjob so I could just use the indoor track during very bad or cold weather. I walked three days a week and did Pilates at home the rest of the time–same deal, change and put in the Pilates DVD as soon as I got home (after feeding the cat, whom I no longer have).

      I’ve been really lazy this winter since it was so wet. I have cold gear, but no rain gear.

    31. CheeryO*

      Honestly, unless you can work out at lunch or find a job with shorter hours or a shorter commute, you just have to brute force it into your schedule, whether that means sacrificing a little sleep, spending less time cooking or getting ready in the morning.

      My schedule is generally: 7:00-7:40 get ready (I shower at night and eat breakfast at my desk), 7:40-4:45 commute/work, 5:00-6:00 run or yoga, 6:00-8:00 prep dinner/eat/clean up, 8:00-10:30 TV/reading/whatever. I have a short commute and no kids, so I feel like I have it pretty easy, but it still takes some conscious effort. One thing I would try to separate out is the energy piece – once it becomes part of your schedule, it doesn’t really require energy (either mentally or physically) the way it does when you’re in the habit-forming stage.

    32. epi*

      Four ways: spend less time on other stuff somehow; join a gym that is on your way home, or else work out from home; go with a friend to motivate you and also so you are multitasking by seeing them; find something you like to do and that you will make a priority.

      Honestly, it can be hard to fit in. I have never found a long-term goal related to exercise that motivated me to keep sacrificing the time. But I found it very effective to pick my favorite cardio machine at the gym and just try to get a little better at it (faster/longer time/more consistent/whatever) week over week. Or do yoga just because I knew the more I participated, the better the meditation at the end would feel. For a while I was into just really pushing myself, knowing the more warmed up I got, the more awesome my shower would be at the end. In my experience, when you find one exercise you like, even if that one gets kind of boring, you will be motivated to replace that feeling. Expect exercise to feel good in some way because it truly can. Those barriers in our schedules have a way of seeming less set in stone when it comes to things we actually want to do.

      Both the exercise and the time for yourself may also help you in those time consuming areas of your life. A commute takes how long it takes, but you may find that sleeping or concentrating better and just feeling better will make some of the other stuff easier.

    33. Midwest writer*

      I changed jobs about four months ago, which coincided with winter starting and holiday eating and I was just feeling really blah. I had added a 30-minute commute and wasn’t able to come home for lunch anymore and I just felt way stressed, exhausted and kind of gross. We have a treadmill, so I decided I’d just try to carve out 20-30 minutes to use it. After about a week, I decided to try in the mornings. I’m getting up at 5:15ish now and walking or running. My energy level is up, even with getting less sleep, and I find myself eating a little healthier, because hey, I went to the effort to exercise, now shouldn’t I focus on eating better, too? What’s worked for me is allowing myself the leeway to skip a morning if I feel too exhausted (I have three small kids, one of whom still wakes up to nurse at night, so those nights happen at least once a week), but I have noticed that if I get up even three mornings a week, then do a little more on the weekends, it’s making a real difference.

    35. tcro*

      Hi!
      So, I feel your pain, as it’s HARD to find a way to fit ALL the things into 24 hours.
      My tips:
      -first thing in the morning… it will be early, so you’ll have to mentally be prepared not to hit snooze everyday. even if it’s only 25-45 minutes, that’s better than nothing and you could save longer workouts (if you want them?!) for the weekend
      -I have a road bicycle… over the winter, it was in the spare bedroom on a “trainer” (allows you to ride YOUR bike inside vs. buying a stationary bike) in front of the TV… so even when I was half-assing it, I still got to decompress and watch a show, but always feeling like a little workout was better than none! If you have a bike with gears, I think this would work, and you can always find used trainers… search Triathlete groups online or ask in your local bike shop if they know of anyone looking to get rid of one.
      -I know you mentioned your hair is kinda tricky… not knowing ALLLL the details… you might think about finding a stylist who is a cutting expert and see if they can help you find a style that’s easier to manage. My hair is thick and heavy… I found a new stylist about a year ago and now instead of spending a SOLID 20 minutes to fully blow dry, I can pretty much towel-dry and put a little product in and the air-dried version still looks put together
      -Also… i enjoy cooking too! But sometimes it’s just too darn much…. can you mix in some quicker meals (eggs for dinner, loaded baked potatoes, etc) and save the longer amount of cook time for weekends/a couple nights per week? I also highly recommend Trader Joe’s… they have lots of stuff in the frozen/fridge sections that make it quicker to get dinner on the table… pre-cooked meats for tacos/salads/etc and I love some of their Fried Rice options and then I just add more veggies and an egg on top.

      Good luck!

    36. Katy*

      Check out the Nerd Fitness blog – he has a “beginner body weight workout” that takes 10 minutes and doesn’t need any special equipment. The blog also has a supportive community and quirky nerd-themed posts like “How far did Frodo walk to destroy the ring?”

    37. Fortitude Jones*

      I’m very fortunate that I a) live down the street from job (it’s a 6-10 minute walk depending on traffic), b) have a gym in my building, and c) get free yoga and Pilates classes as a complementary service for paying rent (my apartment community is awesome!). I also only run three times a week in the gym for 30 minutes at a time, so while I do end up kind of tired after my workouts, since I do it almost as soon as I get off work, I’m not too exhausted to do things like cook something light and quick. Can you try to carve out just 30 minutes at a time to work out, even if it’s just in your living room? That was the only way I was able to do it.

    38. Jane*

      Well, I only work an 8 hour day, but I also do ALL of my cooking for the week on the weekend, and I spend 30 minutes getting ready for work, including hitting the snooze button at least once. I eat breakfast during my commute. I’m also lucky that my hours can be slightly flexible.

      A typical workout day for me is either with a workout in the morning or the evening.

      Morning day:
      Wake up 5:45
      Leave at 6:15
      Get to the gym at 7:15
      Leave the gym at 8:40
      Get to work at 9
      Leave at 5
      Get home around 6:30
      Heat dinner and am eating by 7
      clean up and get ready for the next day 7:30-8
      work on my online class 8-10
      bed by 10, asleep by 11

      evening day:
      get up around 7
      leave around 7:30
      get to work around 8:40
      leave work around 4:40
      get to exercise class around 5:45
      leave exercise class at 7
      home by 7:30
      heat dinner and eating before 8
      shower, get ready for the next day 8-8:30
      work on online class 8:30-10
      in bed by 10, asleep by 11

      I try to do one of these options three times a week, plus I also exercise once on the weekend.

      1. DataGirl*

        I need about an hour in the morning but I have longish straight hair so I only have to wash it about twice a week, so my shower is very short. I find if you have curly hair or a short cut that requires styling every day that takes more time. I am with you on needing cat time in the morning.

        For working out I go to a 2 hour class first thing Sat morning so it’s out of the way for the weekend. I have chair yoga at work Monday, then sometimes a bare class Tues night. Probably would be better to spread things out over the week but that’s just when the classes I like are held.

        On my barre night I either cook something really fast like pasta, or we order out. I have tried meal prepping on the weekend so many times but my family is just weird, once something had been cooked and stored in the fridge, no one wants to eat it. But if you don’t have issues with leftovers or eating the same thing a few times in a week a crock pot or instant pot are great ways to make big meals with minimum effort.

    39. pcake*

      do you spend any time watching TV or chatting with a roommate or S/O? if so, you could pedal with a mini peddler or use a mini eliptical as you do. for that matter, you could also use a bullworker or resistance bands to work on while watching TV or chatting.

    40. Dr. Anonymous*

      I do short Fitness Blender videos the moment I get out of bed. You could wave the Cat Dancer around during the cardio intervals. And I can get a pretty decent full face on in about three minutes. It would be two minutes more if eye makeup didn’t make me itch. This may be a time to try a new hair stylist to find a lower maintnance do as a gift to yourself.

  28. De Minimis*

    I’m finishing up the first week of my two weeks notice, and I feel like I’m walking through mud. I can see why people often don’t give notice or give shorter periods than two weeks.

    Also, everyone has been nice enough since the news was made public, but it’s weird being here. I’m a contractor so I’ve always sort of felt on the outside anyway during my time here, but this has just reinforced it.

    1. Wishing You Well*

      I’m glad you’re almost done. You might feel better once you’re outa there!

  29. Person of Interest*

    For your amusement: I’m reviewing student resumes for our spring internship, and came across this tidbit under a position that sounds like it was sort of a short-term study abroad experience:

    “Supported sustainable businesses and lifestyles by contributing to local economies”

    Meaning…. went shopping?

    2. Competent, I swear!*

      I reviewed a resume the other day which included a section on ‘personal interests’ and had the line “I’ve recently taken up golf and have really got into the swing of it.” – I asked my manager if we were allowed to fire someone we hadn’t even hired yet. ;-)

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Okay, that would put that person at the top of my “to interview” list, no lie.

    4. Can't remember my first 2 usernames*

      This sounds like a line from one of the Shopaholic books. I’m laughing on the inside at this.

      1. Reba*

        LOL

        When I was a kid I went shopping with my grandmother a lot when she cared for me. When asked what we got up to, she taught me to say “supporting the local economy.”

        1. The New Wanderer*

          We use “support local business” as code if we’re talking about going out to get ice cream in front of the kids.

    6. Chaordic One*

      It it’s an internship in the marketing department I think you’ve found your candidate.

  30. No name*

    My department brought in a consultant for some kind of future planning effort. We started with an anonymous brainstorming website, where people are supposed to leave ideas for improving our department and the whole institution.

    That’s some of the contribution. A lot is saying things to the effect of upper management needing to realize that their underlings don’t trust them, don’t feel valued by them, and that management needs to be held to high standards as well.

    It’s true, and also exceptionally biting. I’m in one of the few truly engaged divisions within the department and some of my colleagues are reading this list like it’s an unhinged Twitter rant.

  31. Environmental Compliance*

    Got in an argument yesterday with a coworker that was arguing against putting in a piece of equipment that would prevent *another* a OSHA/EPA potential violation (as in, explodey type serious violation). Basically, engineer a huge risk out of the equation. Their argument was that putting in a very common, very standard piece of equipment was going to inconvenience someone, maybe.

    Not proud really that I ended up walking out of the meeting, but I did stand my ground until the completely unreasonable “but then where do you stop?? redundancies after redundancies after redundancies? WHERE DOES IT END, EC??” Okay, we’re putting in a two step process instead of a one step, calm the eff down. I am not going to put up with 30 minutes of pointless straw arguments from someone who doesn’t have one iota of say in this decision.

    I guess someone must have said something to them as they came up and apologized to me. I would have more appreciated our manager shutting the person down at the meeting itself before it got to the point of a 30 minute diatribe about whether EHS should be purely convenient, but baby steps, I guess.

    1. A CAD Monkey*

      As someone who lives near and is effected by chemical plant “mishaps”, redundancies are a good thing. This person is an idiot. “Inconvenience” in a possible explosion hazard situation is a good thing, when the thing causing the inconvenience can possibly save lives. This guy needs to F-off and re-evaluate is outlook on the job he’s supposed to be doing if a standard piece of safety equipment is a inconvenience to him. (Sorry, the recent plant explosion/fire/benzine leak here has me a miffed.)

      1. valentine*

        As Compliance, do you not have the standing to shut them down? Or say, “We’re not going to let people slice off extremities because you don’t want them to push a second button”?

      2. Construction Safety*

        IIRC, even PSM only requires one level of “What if?”

        FWIW, you wont find “inconvenienced” in the OSHA dictionary.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Yeah, that’s what I ended the meeting with – EHS does not require anything to be convenient, EHS requires us to be SAFE. We’re done here.

    2. LCL*

      Engineering controls are virtually always preferable to adding PPE, or making changes to work practices. If those engineering controls use something already standard and available to the industry, that is a win for everybody.

      1. jack*

        Exactly! If I could put an EC (or remove the risk) for a hazard in my facility with an ESTABLISHED fix I’d do it in a heartbeat.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Exactly! Coworker’s option? Just tell the truckers NOT TO DO THAT. Okay, sure, but THAT HASN’T WORKED ALREADY, YOU MORON. That’s why we’re here, having this discussion! Coworker was literally arguing with everyone else in the room (including our supervisor) that putting in a single piece of control, most likely <$15000, that is standard everywhere else in the industry, was 1) too much money and 2) too confusing for the truckers to use. Except it's not coming out of his budget (as he has none, and guess what, EHS does), it's only $15k, it's a HUGE hazard, and there'd be no change to what the truckers do.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        The facility manufactures a flammable/combustible chemical that this individual is in charge of selling.

        1. Observer*

          But still. Why does the sales department have any say in manufacturing or even delivery (which is what I assume the truckers do)?

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            No, the truckers are our clients, who this person is selling to. We have no deliveries onsite of our product :)

  32. Something Blue*

    Hi! Several people have posted here about getting MLIS degrees and then going into other fields such as records management or data management instead of libraries. I was wondering how to go into those fields without training to be a librarian?

    I like the idea of being a librarian, but it’s such a hard field to get into that I was wondering how to get into the “data adjacent” fields without an MLIS degree.

    I’m currently in publishing in managing/production editorial, and I think I’d like managing information or records and hopefully have a higher salary. I assume I’d need some kind of classes to do this, but when I try to google about this, I get info about being a manager or hardcore math classes.

    Does anyone have any suggestions for what kind of classes or certificates I’d need or a better way to search for it?

    Or if any librarians made the switch from libraries to corporate jobs are reading this, what kind of job listings did you look for to find them?

    1. Booksaregood*

      Yes, there is a certification for records management. I don’t know how useful it is for jobs, though – I worked in records management for about 4 years and everyone in my department either had an MLIS or was working toward it, but none of us had a CRM. ARMA is the professional group for records managers, so that might be another place for you to do research. However it doesn’t have a fantastic reputation (or at least doesn’t among my colleagues), not in the way the ALA or SAA do.

      So on that note, maybe courses through ALA/SAA are another option for you? I’d look into classes about classification and taxonomies, handling electronic records (like, how to scan, how to organize emails, how to deal with different types of file formats), cataloguing, retention, and maybe databases (not so much programming as just how to use them) (though programming was definitely helpful for me).

      My job title started as record analyst, so maybe try that as a job-search term?

      Hopefully that’s helpful! If there’s anything you’d like me to clarify, let me know!

      1. Something Blue*

        Thank you! That is helpful!

        I do have a follow-up question: For the co-workers working toward an MLIS—were they planning on switching to library jobs or did they need the info for their jobs and MLIS was the main way to get it?

        1. Booksaregood*

          Hm, well, we specifically hired people with an MLIS/working toward one because we wanted professionals with a good background/foundational knowledge in data and metadata organization. Even our interns were grad students working toward their MLIS.

          My experience is definitely not universal, but at least at my school the MLIS program is not limited to library work. It was about information: how to classify it, how to access it, how to preserve it, how to help other people with it. I took a variety of classes, like on human behavior, cataloging, programming, and archiving.

          I took the RM job because it was steady and permanent work (which I was having a hard time finding), not because I specifically wanted to go into RM, and I think my co-workers had similar motivation. People left the department as they found better jobs elsewhere; some stayed in RM, some went on to archives, and some to libraries.

    2. DataGirl*

      Well there’s the IT way of going by taking classes in database design, administration, etc. I have an MLIS but it was my classes in database administration that got me a foot in the door with IT and I’ve been on that path since. If you are interested in a specific field like healthcare there are programs just for ‘ health informatics’ and I’m guessing there are similar things for other specific industries.

  33. Nervous Accountant*

    I’m responsible for a time sensitive project that needs to be completed every day during tax season. It’s not difficult but it needs to be done every day and I am allowed to use interns.

    I have had one intern who has been pretty amazing… proactive, takes ownership of it, is quick and has a good atittude.

    Would it be appropriate to give him a small gift card (like starbucks or something) at the end of his internship? (it goes w/o saying that I will also offer my contact information for a good reference)

    My only hesitation is that I’ve had other interns and they’re OK but he stands out so I don’t want them to feel… like it’s unfair? Idk. I’d rather be overcautious than not. I’m not friends or even overly friendly with him either so I don’t want it to feel awkward.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        True. The company did a lunch around the holiday season b/c they wouldn’t be invited to the holiday party (underage). I am not sure if they will be invited to teh post-tax season party but I doubt it. The gift card would be coming out of my own pocket ($20-30). I once got one when I was an intern, but I think it was from the company, not from ayone personally. I just thought it would be nice.

        1. valentine*

          No? It’s income. Get him a formal bonus or raise. The others would do well to learn now that we don’t (and shouldn’t) all get the same thing all the time.

          1. Nervous Accountant*

            Lol I wish I could but I have 0 control over pay and compensation.. plus it’s seasonal and internship ends soon.

            “The others would do well to learn now that we don’t (and shouldn’t) all get the same thing all the time.”
            I like this point.

    2. BottleBlonde*

      I’ve done this before for interns and I think it’s appropriate (even standard in some places). If I was supervising several interns during the same semester I would probably feel uncomfortable only giving one of them a gift card so I’d choose to gift all or none, but that’s me. If I wasn’t their direct supervisor then I think I’d feel more comfortable singling out one intern who went above and beyond to help me.

      1. Friday afternoon fever*

        I agree with all of this. And I’d put the gift card inside a small greeting card. As an intern I would have really appreciated that.

    3. Dragoning*

      I am pro-“being nice to your interns”

      Not sure if the other interns would have any way of finding this out.

    4. Susan K*

      I think it’s pretty common at a lot of companies to give gift cards as recognition for someone who went above and beyond for a project, so yes, I think that is appropriate. Don’t forget to recognize the other interns for the things they did well, too, but it is fine to reward one person who contributed significantly more than the rest.

    5. LuckySophia*

      It sounds like this intern has gone “above & beyond” what others do/have done, so yes –I would give him a small gift card, but more importantly, I’d deliver it along with a brief but formal “business letter” that says something like: “Dear Intern, I want to express my appreciation for the professional contributions you’ve made during your internship here at (Company). You’ve been [e.g. what you cited –proactive,/takes ownership/quick etc. ]. It has been a pleasure to work with you, and I wish you continued success. Please let me know if you ever need me to provide a reference for you.” (I think a letter like that would mean even more than a gift card, although I’m sure the gift card would also be appreciated!)

    6. foolofgrace*

      If the other interns would know about the gift, and wonder why they aren’t being recognized, I would skip it. Just offer to be a great reference.

    7. Something Borrowed*

      Not weird at all! You can be discreet about giving him the gift card at the end of his internship if you’re worried about other interns seeing it happen.

    8. Not A Manager*

      Do you currently have other interns? If so, it might be weird to personally gift him something and not to them. But if you’ve “had” other interns in the past, and might in the future, but you only have this guy right now, I think it’s fine to give him a nice thank-you note with a Starbucks gift card.

    9. Reba*

      I think it would be less weird, and possibly very nice! to take them out for a goodbye lunch or coffee than to fork over the gift card. A former boss did that for me and I remember feeling like it was a nice acknowledgement.

      I don’t think the gift card it wrong, either! But I think I personally would have felt a little weird about it if I were in the intern’s shoes.

      1. Nervous Accountant*

        I like that idea! but I tend to be a little closed off & awkward being around new people :[ If I were different, or had a closer, more friendly relationship with them I would do that. Good idea for next time.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I think a gift card is a nice idea then. I have gift cards from similar situations that had a short note of appreciation with them. These meant enough to me that I still have them.

  34. Loopy*

    I am about to enter an extremely busy period at work and have zero people who can do what I do to help with the workload. It’s not forever, but it is for about a month of lots of extra hours. And it’s not just the time, it’s very stressful work that leaves me drained. I’ve already really struggled with not letting this bleed into the time I do have that I’m not working- eating habits, home productivity, moods, etc.

    Does anyone have tips for surviving really intensely stressful bursts without gaining 50 lbs from coping via cupcakes and having the house become buried under laundry and dust bunnies?

    1. rocklobsterbot*

      can you throw money at the problem? send your laundry out, get healthy food delivered?

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      YMMV, but I love getting my groceries delivered. I’ve been using Peapod for over a year and it has saved me so much time. There’s a small delivery fee involved, but I’ve saved money from not making random purchases and it’s way easier (for me, personally) to buy more healthier foods when I’m not staring at the bakery section IRL.

      1. Detective Amy Santiago*

        Seconding this! I started having my groceries delivered (via Instacart) and it has saved me so much time and also helped me make healthier food choices.

    3. Susan K*

      My workplace goes through busy periods once or twice per year, during which I have to work a lot of extra hours for several weeks (a bit different from your situation because the busy periods are busy for everyone here), and I find that it helps to prepare in advance. I try to start the busy period with my house cleaned up, my pantry and freezer stocked, personal stuff taken care of (e.g., if I have a dental cleaning due or need something fixed at my house, schedule it before the busy period), taxes done, etc. I like to make meals in advance to freeze so I don’t have to do actual cooking during the busy period. And if you can swing it, it might be nice to give yourself a break by using a house cleaning service during this time.

      Also, it might help to let your friends and family know in advance that you are going to be really busy at work, so they won’t get offended if you’re not available during the busy period.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      Seconding all of the above. If you can’t afford house cleaning, also consider lower standards, doubling the time between bathtub scrubs, etc.

    5. Blinded By the Gaslight*

      Something I’ve been trying (and which seems to be working!) is setting my bar really low in terms of “getting things done” around the house, and removing things like household chores from my to do list. Instead, I have an agreement with myself that if I’m leaving a room, I look around for something that belongs in the place I’m going (or trash, dishes, etc.) and take it with me. When I come home from work, I leave my shoes/work clothes on for 15-30 minute and get quick tidying done like taking out the trash, loading/unloading dishes or laundry, etc. I clean as I go when I cook, and I have a new rule that I have to empty my kitchen sink before bed every night so that I can wake up to kitchen that is free and clear for me to make breakfast. So, instead of using up my whole Saturday or Sunday for chores, I just do a few minutes here and there, and that keeps the filth and clutter at bay.

      I also second grocery delivery. It’s great, and usually there are ways to save on delivery fees like scheduling a “green” delivery window. Not everything you want may be available, and sometimes prices can be higher, but once you figure out what works best for you, it’s pretty great to not have to make a trip to the store.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      Don’t buy the cupcakes.
      Seriously, if I buy the cupcakes I will eat them. All of them. Just don’t buy them.
      But do understand that sugar is energy. What matters is where we get the sugar from. You can buy individual yogurts, pre-cut fresh fruit etc. I even keep a canister of raisins around for when the fresh stuff runs out.

      And this is going to sound odd, go to bed on time every night. Set a time and commit to that time. We get energy from sleep or from food. If we don’t sleep, you see what that leaves us with: FOOD. I have gone through busy spells where I have made myself go to bed at a particular time every night. It felt so. damn. good. It was my excuse to stop doing things. And I found that I got more done because I knew for a fact that the day would end and I would go to bed at my scheduled time.

      Of course, there is a learning curve and I had to sort what is important to me and what is not important. I wanted some fresh fruit. I did not need to cut it up myself but I did need the fruit. It would have been nice to save the bucks by cutting it myself but it was not that important. It was more important to have fruit on hand. And I looked at other things in a similar manner. Some answers are not ideal and some answers are not what I would do ordinarily. I had to make those trade-offs.

  35. Karen from Finance*

    Hi!

    I want to tell you a story. A story of a tech startup. I’ll try to keep these short because there are so many problematic things that I’ve started to lose track. I’m hoping keeping this list will help me keep perspective.

    – The company is about 80 people. About 15 of them have some type of personal connection to the CEO (who is one of the owners) including both this siblings in law and his former boss.
    – There are several people who are or have been in relationships. Two heads of departments are ex-partners and therefore can’t really be near each other.
    – Every so often there are company parties, sometimes IN the actual office, and they are wild. There is a lot of alcohol involved, and people hitting on each other, and people going home together. I’m told at least once there was a party on a Thursday and people went to work the next day hangover/still drunk, without having slept.
    – Once after a company Christmas party, the CEO’s recently-divorced brother-in-law (who is an employee) didn’t go home (to his parents’). So the CEO’s mother-in-law starts to bother the CEO about it. So the CEO decides to text the entire company group chat to ask where the guy was. Of course, he was with another employee.
    – The following year this exact scenario played out almost exactly the same, except CEO didn’t text the group chat, but people individually. Brother-in-law was with a different employee this time.
    – Our lowest paid employee tried to negotiate a higher salary with one of the owners. Things escalated. She proposed “they take this outside”, and when he refused, called him a chicken (to thim, and then to me when telling me the story). She’s still employed 3 months later.
    – Two of the owners frequently argue with each other. They like to get into pissing contests in the middle of meetings, and it gets ugly. It’s fine for them because they are friends, but it’s very ugly for the rest of us. They once got in an argument about exchange rates and ended up betting on it more money than they pay me, in front of me.

    You might be wondering at this point, what’s up with this company’s HR department? Well, it’s composed of the CEO’s former boss. She used to have two employees, but they just quit simultaneously last month. HR lady is very prone to picking up fights with people and bringing out the worst in all of us through responding very agressively, finger-pointing and with a liberal use of ALL CAPS. Overall poor management, and unnecessarily escalating situations. Examples of situations involving HR:
    – Our payroll and roster data are an absolute mess, she has no idea how much people are supposed to be making. She has 2 separate files and she doesn’t even have the same names for people in both of them (JOHN SMITH in one vs Smith, Jon A. in the other). I’ve been fighting her on this all week so just.. Trust me. It’s a mess.
    – They do not pay OT, you’re supposed to take time off instead. But they don’t track OT. They do track time off. To take time off, you need to fill out a form that gets sent out to leadership, where you are required to give detailed reasons for the absence (“personal matter” or such will get pushback). She tracks this time extensively, and assumes one never makes up for flex time. She calls this “unproductivity”.
    – This is still an improvement on the old way of managing PTO, which was emailing the entire company (AFTER your manager had already given approval). It was put to an end after someone was sick and HR replied all asking “Oh but is it just a cough? What did the doctor say?” and the employee replied-all back with an extensive, detailed list of all of her symptoms. Not all heroes wear capes.
    – I’ve seen people with bottles of booze by their desks, that have progressively fewer content. I’ve seen booze in the fridge in my floor quite a few times on Fridays. As long as they’re charging their timesheets and coming and leaving on time, this is not considered unproductivity by HR.
    – Company reimburses mobile phone expenses for leadership. HR decided they would only do this for one particular cell phone provider, by pretext of wanting to keep control over suppliers. An employee refused to change carriers for his personal line, saying that if they want to control “suppliers” they should give him a company phone, otherwise he controls which company he has to his name. HR responded by stopping reimbursing his cell phone bill.
    – After I started putting together the first decent financial reports this company has ever seen (not tooting my own horn – this place is a MESS) they cut the milk out of the break room to save money. They also refuse to give us a shelf to put our stuff or a coat rack. They do, however, still find that there’s room in the budget for paraphernalia with the company logo, because it “boosts morale” because it apparently helps people “identify with the company”. Saying nothing of random senseless expenses from HR and leadership.

    This is long enough already so I’ll stop here. Survival tips welcome. Have a good weekend, everybody!

    1. What?*

      o.O ….the weirdest bit of this whole story is you asking for ‘survival tips’ at the end. I would be actively out job-hunting.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I’m casually job hunting. Casually because up until the point where I wrote it down in a list just now, I always convince myself that it’s “not that bad”. I currently have a lead, we’ll see how it goes.

        2. Not So NewReader*

          You have already started to go through the distortion in thinking that comes with being in such a toxic, polluted, filthy environment.
          Okay, let’s look at this way, when we HAVE to tell ourselves that “it’s not that bad”, that is probably a very strong indicator that it actually IS that bad.

          You are talking about the health of a company. This is not a company that will last. It will go under if it continues to operate this way. Think of human health. Suppose a person wrote out a list as long as what you have here showing all their nagging and on-going health issues. Would you decide that this is a healthy person? Probably not, right? Likewise for companies, lists that look like this indicate the company is not healthy. This company is probably not a reliable source of income from you because it is barely surviving from one day to the next.

          You can do better than work here. And you deserve to have a better employer than this one. I would recommend making it a goal to be out of there within the next few months.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            This is very thoughtful, thank you.

            I think I came into this with an open mind, too willing to accept everything as my new normal.

            I used to work at this huge company, HUGE, almost-Big-Four-huge. It’s a very hard environment, I think it is possible to thrive there but definitely not for everyone. In 2017 I had to take a leave of absence for medical reasons (fine now) and when I came back I saw the culture for what it was, because I had this shift in perspective. It was a very toxic environment for reasons at the other end of the spectrum than the ones I’m describing here, it’s so exploitative.

            So when I arrived here, everything was so easily framed as “oh, it’s just so chill here”, “oh, people are so relaxed”. I like the phrase from Lisa Kudrow’s character in Bojack Horseman “I guess when you see life through rose-colored glasses, all the red flags just look like.. flags.” So this is all to explain why I was so easily duped into the “it’s not that bad” but, you’re right, it probably does not have a future and I really need to start updating my profile on them job sites.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        I’m not from the US. Because we’re not unionized and because they technically offer to let you the time off (despite the tracking of one and not the other), it would be very hard to enforce anything legally here.

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      Have you read the book Disrupted? The writer’s style is a bit haughty but it’s a very similar startup situation and story, and digs into other problems with startup culture. I read it recently and really enjoyed it.

      This may not be a survival tip and honestly, being in a toxic environment like this might mean the last thing you want to do at home is read about it, but maybe once you’re out of there you can pick it up.

      Maybe you don’t need to read the book but write your own instead.

      1. church lady*

        I think the poster should write her own book. You cannot make any of this up. Good luck with your job search.

      3. Karen from Finance*

        Might be worth checking it out now to remind myself that This Is Not Normal. Thanks!

    6. Llellayena*

      Start writing a sitcom based on your office (bonus points if you’re able to write it during office hours), sell it to Hollywood (or your country’s equivalent), and quit spectacularly when the royalties start coming in. Oh and add the spectacular quit into an episode of the sitcom.

      More practically, get out. Soon.

    9. MissDisplaced*

      Unproductivity when you’re genuinely sick but getting shitfaced at work ia A-ok? Priceless!
      Run and don’t look back!

  36. DC*

    This week I became the only LGBT member off my office. In the last six months we’ve gone from a significant number to just me. I freaked out. I left the office that day with a panic attack, and took today off to think.

    On top of everything else, this was my last straw. I’ll be looking in earnest now, as I no longer feel safe.

    Thank you to everyone who offered advice the last few weeks.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      I’m sorry :(

      How unfriendly are the cishet people there? Are they very hostile, or is it just the prospect of being the only LGBT person there that is making you feel this way?

      1. DC*

        My direct coworkers (the ones I sit with) are incredibly supportive. As is my boss. It is the upper management, and the fact that when they started firing the others I mentioned my fears, and was waved off, just to have the next one come down a few weeks later. I’ve felt constantly on guard with certain departments (I’m one of the only one who works across all depts.) including upper management. The culture in the office has shifted.

        1. Karen from Finance*

          Oh. I’m glad it’s not actively hostile in your direct environment, at the very least. But that’s still not good.

          I hope you find somewhere that is worth having you soon.

        3. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

          Yeesh, I don’t blame you for feeling exposed. Even if your everyday environment is supportive, that’s a deeply scary trend that seems awfully unlikely to be pure coincidence, unless it’s somehow coming in the context of massive layoffs? Which it doesn’t sound like.

          Good luck to you, and I hope you land somewhere much more genuinely safe.

    2. Willow*

      I’m so sorry you’re going through this. I have no advice, but instead will just send you a virtual hug and wish you luck in your job search. You deserve to work in a place where you can feel safe and thrive.

  37. Pay Equity*

    I work at a nonprofit in a program management role. It’s budget season, which means that I’m looking at every one of my colleague’s salaries as I build my program budget… and there’s a clear gender disparity.

    What should I do? I mean, what are the steps I should take?

    2. Jess*

      This really, really, depends on the politics in your office, I think. Who has the power to make a difference on this issue, but doesn’t have the information, and how can you share the key information and encourage them to support the cause, while respecting your responsibility to confidentiality around individual salaries?

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      I would flag this to the appropriate parties- HR/board/etc. It’s often helpful to couch these things in a way that gives the company more credit- “Part of the annual program budgetary process involves a salary review. There appear to be significant pay disparities based on gender, and since I know pay equity is important to us, I wanted to bring it to your attention. Obviously I understand there may be other factors to explain the disparities and I’m sure we would never intentionally pay someone more or less based on their gender, but I felt this was worth flagging for you.” Could use some polishing and the last sentence may not even be necessary, but I err on the side of over-explaining in general!

  38. Semaj*

    What are everyone’s thoughts about accepting the occasional personal phone call in the office? Things like confirming an appointment or scheduling an appliance delivery.

    For context, I’m in an office with paper thin walls with two other coworkers, one being my boss. My boss accepts personal calls all day every day, which I don’t begrudge her, but she’s several rungs above me on the hierarchy.

    Should I ask point blank if the occasional personal call is okay? Give my boss a heads up that I’m expecting a call and try to step out to take it? I wouldn’t take a sensitive call about a doctor’s appointment of course, and they’d be brief, intermittent calls.

    1. Texting works better*

      I just have people text me instead or leave a voice mail. I try to schedule any calls that I must take after 5PM. If someone calls during the day, I text them back saying I am at work, can you tell me what this is regarding? 9 out of 10 times, whatever is needed can be addressed through text.

      1. Semaj*

        I like the idea in theory, but I’ve got to disagree on this one. No doctor’s office, dentist, pharmacy, etc is going to text me, they’re likely calling from a landline anyway. Same with most appointments of any nature.

        1. Lilysparrow*

          I get all my Dr appointment confirmations by text or email. Every practice I’ve been to in the last 10 years has this ability, it’s generated by the calendar software.

          Even the nonprofit free clinic I volunteer with has this.

          1. Friday afternoon fever*

            Confirmations maybe but not scheduling. Depends on your office culture but I don’t see why this wouldn’t be fine.

        2. Kuododi*

          As long as the appropriate consents are signed up front, Drs offices will call or text regarding routine issues…scheduling, billing, etc. I have never encountered a Drs offices which would deliver test results, discuss detailed medical concerns and the like over the phone.

          Two of our major healthcare systems in my city have version of a MyChart app which allows PT access to certain areas of medical records, ability to set appointment online, email provider regarding concerns etc. Additionally Walgreens has an app where a person gats email/text info regarding perscription refills, other issues. I can’t speak for other major pharmacies in US. I have been a Walgreens customer for years.

    2. Amber Rose*

      Just ask, nobody’s gonna get upset at you for asking. Everyone in my office does it from time to time. As long as you’re not on personal calls for ages every single day, I don’t see why it would be an issue, but I don’t know your boss.

    3. Less Bread More Taxes*

      Unless you work at a place where it’s important for you to be at your desk all day or you have an office culture where you could be pulled into a meeting at any time, I’d assume it’s okay to take a personal call here and there. A lot of life happens 9-5 when you’re working. It’s unreasonable to expect that you never take care of those things.

      My job now is one where someone could pop in at any time for an impromptu meeting, so I usually email my boss at the beginning of the day if I’m expecting a call so she knows I may have to leave a meeting for a few minutes.

    4. AliceBD*

      It’s always been totally fine in every office environment I’ve been in, even when I was a summer intern in college a decade ago, to occasionally take a call or place a call like you’re describing here. I think you’re OK, as long as it’s something you’re OK with others hearing about (so like you said, nothing sensitive you want to keep private).

    5. Karen from Finance*

      I think it’s reasonable to take one call every once in a while. I’d step away from my desk if it’s for something very personal, which is also reasonable.

    6. Auddish*

      I consider taking a personal call to be like stepping away from your desk to refill your water bottle or grab a coffee. It’s not really an issue unless it takes 30 minutes (in which case you might have to use your break time?) or happens so often that you’re never really at your desk doing work. Sometimes you just need to take care of stuff.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Generally, occasional brief calls of this nature are acceptable. Some places, such as doctors may only be open 9-5. But be quick. Hang up if you get on hold

  39. ExceptionToTheRule*

    I’m considering a career change & right now my job requires a lot of informal project management, so I’m considering getting my CAPM. For those who work in project management – is that plus 20 years of experience in small-scale project management enough to get my foot in the door or would you recommend anything else?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      Project management means something different to everyone, so I would say it depends more on the experience you have and what you’re trying to move to than the certification.

      I am a PM in engineering consulting and just got my PMP this year. No one really cares that I have it, and I wouldn’t have gotten this job 5 years ago because of the certificate if I did not have 15 years of engineering experience. Internally here, people’s demonstrated ability to get things done and manage themselves and others really drives whether someone can get a PM role.

    2. Mr. Tyzik*

      From a tech standpoint, pursuing a CAPM or a PMI-ACP is a good move. Your project management experience will translate in some ways, but Agile Project Management focuses more on continual planning than following a fixed plan. You’ll need to release control of the project to the team and take a more supporting role than in Waterfall or conventional projects.

      I highly recommend it. The certification will help you make the transition as it will show you’ve invested in the management style change.

    3. JanetM*

      I was moved into a project manager position with no formal PM experience or certification — it was very much sink or swim (although I was given a lot of support getting started). Also I now have a CAPM, and am logging my hours in hopes of taking the PMP in five years.

      If you have 20 years of experience, and can document it, why not go for the PMP? And as Mr. Tyzik said, if you can document Agile experience, go for the PMI-ACP.

      Good luck!

    4. ProjectManagerandITassessor*

      If you’ve done small-scale project management for over 20 years I’d recommend just going for your PMP. Project management does mean different things to different people/companies. That said, having your PMP does help open up doors in my opinion.

  40. FriYAY*

    One of my employees got upset when I asked her to come into the office (one particular day) instead of working from home. She came in but with a plan for bitter revenge. She used that day in the office to make a complaint about me. Basically that I’m mean and tough and that I upset her.

    She complained to the CEO and he was extremely annoyed. Said she is too high-maintenance and emotional and wants to fire her so I don’t have to be stressed about co-existing with her.

    Her work is good, not great. She does seem to be emotionally unstable and requires as excess of flexibility with sick days, mental health days and working from home and that is not working for us.

    If we let her go, not sure how to go about it. She knows I’m not thrilled with her work because she’s disorganized and always falling behind but she feels her excuses are valid and I am trying to give her some slack to get caught up. The termination is not performance related, it’s personality.

    When the owner didn’t react to her complaint, she said complained to HR that I didn’t “get in trouble.” We all that was really a red flag. The owner and HR see what I see, I’m appropriately “tough” and she’s too sensitive.

    We’re leaning towards a general “not a fit” or the flexibility you require is not longer feasible as a reason for termination. But it’s not sitting well with me, not sure why.

    1. Less Bread More Taxes*

      I think you owe her a serious conversation before terminating her so she has a chance to fix things. If you already know the working from home schedule isn’t working and she’s not able to budge on that, you can of course fire her for that alone. But if it’s personality, I think you need to explain exactly what the issues are. Give examples, explain how negatively they impact others, and explain thoroughly what you need to see from her. After a few weeks of no improvement, then you can fire her.

    2. HRAwry*

      Is it maybe because terminating someone after they’ve issued a complaint against you may look like retaliation?

      1. FriYay*

        Not at all. She made comments about me as part of a long crying fit. She complains and cries about a lot of minor things, only difference was this one she didn’t bring to me.
        The complaining has been a theme so I have been trying to coach her on curtailing the negative comments. I believe she said those things about me out of retaliation for me asking her to come into the office.
        I brush them off but it’s made the CEO despise her, he just wants her gone.

        1. valentine*

          Just fire her. Take yes for an answer. And it is performance-related. It’s behavior, not personality:
          ~disorganized
          ~always falling behind
          ~constantly complains
          ~cries
          ~childish ideas about meanness and getting in trouble

          You could fire her for the crying, alone. You simply need someone who absorbs and acts on feedback calmly.

          That said, in future, just tell the person to stop xyz immediately; decreasing the comments is more like therapy. It seems like this comes up every week, with employees debating their usually female managers to death. Maybe you have soft-peddled everything and said yes to too many leave requests? Be unambiguous and set maxes.

    3. fposte*

      I agree with Less Bread–this sounds like a small business that’s operating a little more seat-of-the-pantsy than maybe it should be.

      However, performance and personality aren’t neatly divisible; part of her job is to be pleasant and professional to other people in the workplace, and if she’s failing at that that’s a performance fail same as if she kept pasting .gifs into Excel formulas. So meet with Trouble and put her on a PIP: lay down some clear expectations about organization and behavior performance and make it clear her job is at risk if they’re not adhered to; reframe working from home as a perk, not an entitlement, and put limits on it for her PIP; put an end date for the PIP with the clear statement that firing remains possible even after it; and send her documentation in an email followup, cc:ing the owner if you think that’s appropriate.

      The one thing I’d beware of: if the sick days she’s taking are employer-provided sick leave or otherwise within policy, you really don’t want to punish somebody for taking it. That’s what it’s there for. (I think it’s fine to require mental health days to come from sick leave rather than vacation if they’re unplanned absences, though.)

      She may be so indignant she’ll quit and solve the problem; she may pull herself together once faced with the concrete evidence that she’s considered a problem; or you may just end up firing her, but you’ll have set out a clear path for yourself to do so.

      1. Sara without an H*

        I agree that a PIP is the way to go. Focus as much as possible on actions and behaviors, NOT personality. There’s a difference between “Part of this role is to be polite and professional in your interactions with others” and “You have an attitude problem.” The first is actionable feedback, the second is not.

        You said that HR is aware of the problem, so work with them on setting up the PIP. And when you meet with Trouble, have a witness present, preferably the HR person.

        Timeline on the PIP should be short, no more than 30 days max. (14 days might be better.) She can either turn this behavior around quickly, or she can’t. No use dragging it out.

    4. Beatrice*

      Are you sure it’s not a performance fire? She’s disorganized and behind and absent too much. She doesn’t take direction well, she’s insubordinate, and she’s not receptive to feedback. These are all performance issues. There’s more to performance than one’s immediate work product.

    5. Not A Manager*

      Why on earth are you thinking of going to bat for this person? Your superiors want her gone, you actually want her gone, she’s been warned and coached, and she’s taking up a lot of your time and mental space.

      If I were you, I’d disengage from this one. Accept that your boss has made the call to fire her, ask your boss how they want it managed/phrased, etc. and then do as you’re told.

      1. FriYay*

        Not at all going to bat for her and have not “been told” to do anything. CEO defers to me to make these decisions about my team, I’m only pushing back on him for making it so personal. She has not been warned in any way. She knows I’m not thrilled with her work but she thinks I’m just being too demanding. A termination would come as a shock to her. I want to take the steps to warn her about performance instead of just terminating her because she has lost our respect.

        1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          Having worked with toxic drama llamas before, one thing I am always concerned about is giving them the space and opportunity to “get revenge.” For example, you asked her to switch a WFH day to an in-office day, so she went to HR and filed a false complaint against you.

          If you put her on a proper PIP to termination, what damage is she going to be able to do in that warning period? Where she’s seething mad but still onsite? Ethically, it’s the right thing to do, but then you have a ticking time bomb sitting in the office.

          1. Observer*

            Make sure that anything she touches is appropriately backed up in ways she can’t touch. Seriously.

      2. Wishing You Well*

        Yes, this.
        Also, are you in an area that is/has “at will” employment? Do you have to have a reason to fire someone?
        Regardless, get her gone quickly and efficiently for all your sakes.

        1. FriYay*

          Absolutely “at will” it’s not that need a reason, I just want to be compassionate when it happens since she’s overly emotional.

          1. fposte*

            I’m all for being compassionate, but I wouldn’t tie it to her being overly emotional–underly emotional people deserve compassion too, and you can’t let her emotional expression drive the actions here.

            So by all means follow the PIP structure because that’s how to responsibly treat employees that aren’t reaching the necessary standard, but it’s okay if she gets emotional. That doesn’t change what you do, and you can’t manage with avoiding that as the goal. (Not sure you were, but I say that just in case.)

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Great point in thinking about others also.

              When I thought about compassion with my group, one of the things I thought about was “Can I give this much compassion/leeway to everyone at the same pace I am doing for this one person?” And sometimes I had the ask the negative version of this question, “If anyone else in the group did X would I be sputtering so much?”

              Here’s where the real soul searching came in, if this was a person who did great work and I really liked them how would I respond? If everyone behaved this way every day, where would that put our work effort? In the process of answering my own questions I realized I needed some rules of thumb so I would be reasonably even-handed in solving situations. This is difficult because situations and people vary widely.

              Stick to the basics, just look at the basic components of being a good employee. I had a person who came into work and used foul language all day long, to the point that he was scaring his coworkers. I had reason to believe that if I fired him, I could end up punched in the face.

              I went back to square one. The guy was usually late for work. He called in a lot. Those were the issues I fired him on. I totally skipped the nasty and sometimes scary language entirely. See, at some point we can’t fix all the things people are getting wrong. In these case, it best for everyone (you, your company, your subordinates, your coworkers) if you just keep it simple. Simple is enough.
              I told him if he was late again, he would be fired. This did not take long, he was late again very shortly after our conversation.
              I had to fire him. He threw his hat on the floor and left, sputtering as he went. I ran into him years later and his demeanor was fine, no hard feelings. I think it’s in part because I just kept it really simple, “your late, your out a lot, we need to let you go.” Don’t be afraid to use the word “we”. You have your boss’ backing and that is huge.

  41. Kind Manager*

    I’m struggling on how to manager my semester intern. She’s a nice, smart, hard-working kid. But I’m noticing a kind arrogance and detachment from reality about her skillset. She claims to be really great at X, Y, Z. So I give her projects that involve X,Y,Z only to discover that her work is awful and I have to redo everything. Then she claims she’s amazing at A. So I give her a project involving A. But she comes to me with basic questions that show she actually has very little knowledge about A. You get the idea. How do I tell her that all of the things she thinks she’s phenomenal at are things she’s really weak in? How do I find out what her real strengths are?

    1. Exit stage left*

      Is there anything positive about her work that she’s turned it?

      Have you asked her what she feels she isn’t great at and try giving her projects like that, to “stretch” her thinking? Maybe she’s not great at self-assessment?

      1. Kind Manager*

        She has a great attitude! She’s a real go-getter and eager to do things. (Flip side of that is that she often does things too quickly and ends up making careless mistakes — we’re working on it.)
        I don’t know if it’s a self-assessment thing — As an example, she claimed to be an amazing writer who had a book published a few years ago and who her teachers are often using as examples of great work. Her writing is horrible. She misspells even basic words, can’t put together a simple sentence and rambles. Everyone in my office who has worked with her on a writing assignment agrees, so I know it’s not me being hard on her.
        I might have to ask her what she’s not great at and try some of those things.

        1. valentine*

          Working hard is useless if you’re working hard at incompetence. She’s awful. I’m amazed she was hired. If you can’t fire her, find the person who hired her and see what you can give her that won’t put you three steps back.

          1. Kind Manager*

            She’s a good kid, but her skillset is sorely lacking. She was a ‘must hire’ due to her connections to other people in my company.

        2. The New Wanderer*

          Er, she’s the one saying these things but has anyone vetted these claims? I mean, it should be pretty easy to look up whether a book was published (and not self-published), or talk to one of her teachers/references. She sounds enthusiastic about selling her ‘brand’ so to speak, but not about doing the actual work at the required level of quality.

          For your own sake, please put her on the most basic, harmless tasks. Be clear that her photography and her writing have not been usable, specify why (misspellings, poor grammar, blurry shots of the wrong things), and that she really needs to put effort in developing these skills rather than claiming expertise she very clearly doesn’t have. If she doesn’t seem to agree, ask her to walk through one of her deliverables and have her point out all the problems. You’ve said you’ve covered some of these things with her, but at this point I think you need to put the work on her to defend what’s good about her work because she’s not learning. When she doesn’t ‘see’ the problems, that’s when you should point them out.

          And please, for the love of the UX industry, do not let someone with zero skills (I realize you didn’t know she didn’t have the skills, but at this point I wouldn’t take her word for anything she claims to know how to do) mess with your website unless it’s absolutely a disposable practice run.

    2. Colette*

      I wouldn’t worry too much about changing her own assessment of her skills. You now know that you can’t trust her self-assessment, so proceed as if she didn’t tell you anything about how good she is at X, Y or Z.

      I’m a little concerned about you redoing her work – are you giving her critical stuff that she won’t have time to redo? If so, is there less critical work you could give her that she could fix herself if she misses the mark?

      Are you explaining clearly what you need out of the work? When she doesn’t get it right, are you helping her understand what needs to change?

      1. Kind Manager*

        I’ve been giving her simple work with deadlines. A few examples (since I’m open to the fact that I might not be managing her the best way):
        *I asked her to write a few paragraphs for a client’s website. Her paragraphs contained a lot of misspelled words, rambling sentences and no clear direction. I “edited” it (heavily) and went through all the changes with her. I asked her to take more time, pay attention to detail, proofread, etc. But every time I ask her to write something, it’s the same story.
        *I asked her to take some photos at an event (she claims to be a great photographer). The photos were blurry, weren’t of the people/things I told her to shoot (I had given her a list hoping to provide some direction), and her edits of them make them look dark and ugly. I ended up using the photos I took myself for the project (at this point, I had already suspected her work wouldn’t look nice so I took what I needed myself). I reviewed the reasoning behind the decision with her.
        *I asked her to make some simple text edits to a page on a website. She asked if she could adjust some of the design since the page was boring and colorless and this is something she is really good at. The page was boring and colorless so I gave her a shot. She finished and told me that it was amazing and she was so proud of it and one of the best things she’s ever done. It was hideous. She had left for the day and I couldn’t leave the page that way so I had to fix it myself.
        She’s an intern, but I was hoping to make this an experience that should could use to really build her resume and show off her skills to potential employers. I think I’m going to have to go back to having her just update spreadsheets and do simple research.

        1. Colette*

          So she is a nice person and hard worker, but her work isn’t good, if I’m understanding this correctly?

          It sounds like you’re doing a lot of good things in the way you’re dealing with her, but I also notice that you are giving her complete tasks and then finding the results underwhelming. Are there tasks where you could check in with her more frequently?

          For example, on the writing task, have her come up with the main points she wants to cover, then discuss them; have her write them in full sentences & review them for content; have her spell check and proofread and then discuss. That’s not a sustainable level of effort indefinitely, but it might help her get to a level that is closer to what you need. I also recommend pointing out that hard work is important, but that it will not lead to success without getting the results that the client (you in this case) wants. In other words, it’s not that her work is bad (although it is), it’s that she needs to be at a different level in order to meet the clients’ needs.

          1. Oxford Comma*

            Yes, this seems like a good idea. Break up the jobs into chunks. At least to begin with.

            1. Tesserae*

              A lot of educators do this – break larger tasks up into process steps that allow them to give feedback. So, if I am assigning a major paper due at the end of the semester, they’ll do a proposal, an outline, an annotated bibliography, a rough draft, and sometimes a 5-minute oral presentation – each step to be handed in, graded, and incorporated into the next steps. Group projects get the same treatment – in class lab at specified intervals, with task worksheets and check-ins. Your intern may be flailing without that level of scaffolding, but it can be easy to put into place & allows to to give formative feedback/check quality before you hit the point of having to do massive revisions on a hard deadline. (For myself, I got tired of reading plagiarized papers/papers citing press releases or marketing text, etc, and found this was a good way to head all that stuff off while also teaching.)

    3. Asenath*

      You’re clearly not going to find out her real strengths by asking her! I think I’d focus on improving her skills in whichever of X, Y, Z, and A is most useful to you (and probably to her in her future jobs) by showing her where she’s going wrong, and having her re-do the work until it’s up to your standard.

    4. MsM*

      It sounds like you either need to ask her some basic screening questions or give her a smaller “test” assignment before you hand the project over, or just outright tell her that this is a problem: “I understand if this is a skill you’d like to develop, but these are not questions/mistakes I’d expect to see from someone with the level of familiarity you originally claimed. We can talk about how to get you training or build in some time for coaching, but for now, I’m going to have to ask you to focus on [thing you need support with that probably won’t need to be redone].”

      1. Kind Manager*

        I like this. She’s a crier so I might have to soften it a bit. But I think I need to give her a dose of the truth. (She cried and blamed her roommate’s mom dying when we had the conversation about how she needed to slow down and pay more attention to detail.) I guess I’m really looking for reassurance that I’m not being unreasonably hard on her by saying something like this to her.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Not only are you not being unreasonably hard on her, you’re doing her a kindness. If she sells herself to future jobs based on being good at things she’s bad at, she’s going to rack up a string of firings. It’s so much kinder for her to figure this out now.

            1. T. Boone Pickens*

              Good grief, this intern sounds like they’d screw up a cup of coffee. You have the patience of a saint for tolerating her substandard work for this long. I agree with MsM, start at the absolute bottom when it comes to work duties and build up from there.

              1. Kind Manager*

                Honestly, I probably wouldn’t trust her to make my coffee.

                I feel horrible writing that. But it’s the truth. I’m trying so hard to find her strengths so I can give her more of those tasks, we can build on those things, and I can give her some big professional “wins.” *sigh*

        2. AcademiaNut*

          It can also help to switch your perspective a bit. What I’ve gotten out of your descriptions, without having met her, is that your intern is a braggart who is incompetent at the most basic tasks in her job, totally unaware of this, and unable to process basic feedback. Don’t let a bubbly personality overshadow that.

          If you sit her down and tell her that her work quality is not acceptable she is likely to cry and carry on, but as AAM said, it’s ultimately a kindness. If she can take the feedback to heart and show real improvement, you can work with her. If she doubles down on her boasting, though, it would ultimately be better to fire her. She may learn from it, it may take more firings, but at least you won’t be pouring effort into an intern who doesn’t want to learn.

          1. Kind Manager*

            She has cried.
            Her second response was to blame her school work for the stress it puts on her life. Then to blame her roommate’s grandma for dying.

    5. WellRed*

      Wow, how did she slip past the screening for the internship? Is she a liar or really delusional on her skills? At any rate, I think the kindest thing would be to let her go if that’s an option so she can rethink herself. She’s not qualified.

      1. Louise*

        This feels a little harsh, I don’t think it’s unusual for students and those early in their career to not have the most self awareness. That’s something you develop over time.

        1. Kind Manager*

          Agreed. I don’t expect her to be a rockstar, she’s an intern.
          My boss says it’s a millennial thing — that they grew up being told they’re awesome at everything so they actually believe it. (I’m a millennial myself, just on the older side. I’d like to think I have more self-awareness.)

  42. Hello!*

    So I am having a slight issue at my new job. I am a woman and the office is split 60/40 women/men (it is a small office, only ten of us). My boss brought it up to me that he thinks that the women in the office are pretty “clique-y” and he felt that I am not comfortable enough around the men in the office. The reason for that being that at my last three jobs I was severely harassed by the men in those offices. For the past 6 years of my life, I’ve been told that if I don’t meet performance goals that I would have to perform sexual acts on my manager, had my boss try to force me to date one of his friends that was 20+ years older than me, etc. I just inherently don’t feel comfortable around male coworkers and am very apprehensive. Is there anyway to address this with my boss? I don’t want him to think that I am a problem employee or anything, but I want him to understand that any uncomfortableness on my end is due to my work history.

    1. Karen from Finance*

      This is a difficult situation. I absolutely understand how these situations in your past would make you uncomfortable around men in work settings in the present, however I don’t think you can bring it to your manager with this framing.

      Because here’s the thing… these are not the same men who have done these things to you. You are now in a different office, and it’s now different times, so it doesn’t have to be the same way this time around. I think, horrible as it feels to be typing this, you need to try to separate the trauma from your past from the present situation you are in right now, otherwise you are putting the blame on people who have nothing to do with the original situation. And sadly you do need to find a way to work with these peoples. I know this is incredibly difficult.

      But then you can say “this comes from a place of experiences in my past that make me defensive around men in work settings, but I am trying to work on not putting that weight on this situation, please be patient with me as I work through it” or something along those lines. And then you can even discuss what you could do if something were to go down, how/where to report, and knowing the type of support they’d give you might make you feel safer too.

      1. Hello!*

        Thank you for your reply. I appreciate how thoughtful it was. It is just difficult to disassociate the ones that did those awful things to just all men (in addition to harassment and assault in my non-work life). But you are right, I need to move past this.

    2. Arctic*

      I am so sorry that happened to you. That’s awful.
      I think you can say “I’ve had some bad experiences in past offices but I’ll work on it.” But I’m not sure how much you should go into it. The truth is you can’t discriminate against someone based on their gender because of past experiences. And that’s likely what he will say.

      1. Hello!*

        That makes sense. I just didn’t know quite how to approach the conversation. Something that I may have misstated is that my boss just noticed that I have a very different rapport with my female coworkers than my male coworkers, he expressly said that it hasn’t been an issue in my work performance.

        1. CupcakeCounter*

          I would simply say that due to some issues in your past you tend to be very much on your guard around men and that it is something that will hopefully subside as you get to know them better. You should also look into therapy if you haven’t already.

          1. Reba*

            I like this good, vague statement of explanation. I might even go vague-er, just “I was thinking about your observation the other day about my rapport with coworkers. Thanks for pointing out the pattern to me, I’ll work on it.”

            I say this because I have been in a situation where a dude really took exception to me saying “I’m reserved around men I don’t know well because of past experiences and safety” — he was like offended by it, it was sexist not to trust him, etc. etc. Hopefully your boss isn’t touchy in this way!

            So sorry you’re dealing with this.

            1. valentine*

              Yes, I wouldn’t mention the reason, just agree to comply. Fake it if necessary. You don’t want him monitoring you or telling everyone.

      2. Jerry Vandesic*

        You need to be careful with statements like ““I’ve had some bad experiences in past offices” with XXXX’s (fill in any gender/religion/race/sexual orientation/etc). Treating someone different because of a protected characteristic is going to be a problem, especially if you come out and say it or write it down.

    3. Kathenus*

      Karen and Arctic have some great points, and I like your thoughtful replies. The one additional thing that comes to me is that for your own personal well-being it might be worth trying to find a therapist to talk to to work through some of these past issues and come up with strategies to make you feel more comfortable and empowered. Since whether in the workplace or other parts of life you’ll be interacting with men regularly, it’ll only help you have a better life if you can find some ways to help yourself feel more in control and comfortable. I’m so sorry you had to deal with that.

    4. Emily Elizabeth*

      What a terrible experience. I’m so sorry. If your insurance and availability right now allows it, some short term therapy might be helpful to allow you to feel more comfortable in your work space. There is no need to become best friends with any of the men in your office, or especially to do it for the sake of your manager’s perception, but for your own sake, you deserve to feel safe and not constantly anxious at work.

    5. Mr. Tyzik*

      I ‘m so sorry you were harassed that way.

      “My boss brought it up to me that he thinks that the women in the office are pretty “clique-y” and he felt that I am not comfortable enough around the men in the office. ”

      I think this is the elephant in the room. This seems rooted in sexism – would he refer to the men that way? Why do the women seem “clique-y”? Why is it your problem to solve?

      I’m side-eyeing this manager big time for scolding you on your interactions along vague, sexist lines, than by giving you some example of how your personal discomfort is affecting your interactions work to prove his thoughts.

      1. Hello!*

        He has said this quite a few times actually. I guess I never thought of it being a sexist term. I mean when I had my first day that is just how it was, the men were always talking and the women were always talking. That isn’t to say that the others aren’t friendly, but for example we have a “work ladies” group chat.

        Also, thanks to everyone for suggesting therapy. In all honesty it would be good for me, but I can’t make it work financially at this time.

        1. it's me*

          Mr. Tyzik makes a good point. Further up, you say your boss told you this isn’t a problem when it comes to your work performance, so I find it a little weird your boss brings it up anyway, like, what does he expect people to do? Bosses policing how employees interact socially seems strange to me.

        3. theguvnah*

          There’s a few things going on here. I agree the way your boss phrased this feels quite sexist, but having a ladies’ group work chat also feels icky to me, especially when you are the majority in the office! (ie, if there were 3 women engineers out of 25, that would be fine with me! but in this case it feels weird).

          Can you maybe identify one of the men that you’d be interested in forming more of a work friendship with and just focus on that one rather than thinking you need to befriend all the men? That might be my approach.

          I’m really sorry about all this, it feels like a weird thing for your boss to focus on.

      2. Not So NewReader*

        Yeah, this sounded kind of sexist to me also.

        You might politely ask the boss what specific changes you could make that he would think of as actual improvements.
        I am betting he can’t come up with even one specific action you could take.

        However, if it were me, I might consider working on an idea where I am seen talking to other men in the group but usually when there is another woman present. So what this could look like is suppose Sue is asking Jeff about his vacation. I would look up from my work and listen in, perhaps nodding or saying, “oh isn’t that nice!” where appropriate. Yeah, basically I’d be tail-coating Sue’s initiative in starting conversation.
        Let’s say you have lunch with Jane. Bob and Jeff walk in and Jane is talking about the terrible storm the other day. Find little ways to chime in, “yeah I had an inch of ice on my windshield”. Little injections into conversation can make people feel like you are acknowledging their presence in the room and you haven’t knocked yourself out.

        In the end, I think the most you can do is say to the boss, “I will try to be more sociable with men but I really cannot fix the overall concern of women being cliquey. ” Try to get the boss to separate the two issues. You can only control what you do, you cannot control how other women behave.
        FWIW, I’d really want to know if he would make those comments to a male employee.

        I am very sorry about your previous experiences. That is awful.

    6. Observer*

      I’m late chiming in, but I have two thoughts. On the one hand, seeing all men in the light of your past experiences is not really good for you. For one thing, living with the kind of anxiety all day must be pretty awful. Also, it creates too much suspicion. A common recommendation here for dealing with situations where your gut tells you that something is off but people are telling you that you are “imagining it” is The Gift of Fear by Gavin DeBecker. He is someone who is solidly on the side of listening to your gut. But he does talk about people who are TOO afraid.

      The idea is that if you are always on high alert, or everything seems like a danger signal to you, then you are going to miss the genuine danger signals. If male = DANGER to you, then how are you going to differentiate between the guys who really DO pose a potential risk from those who are just dudes in your office?

      The bottom line is that for your own health, you really should try to access some help to process this. What happened to you was utterly awful, and it would be nice to think the the people who did this to you will be punished. But in the meantime, you need to find a way to not project that onto other men so you can get on with your life without the shadow of your abusers all over it.

      On the other hand, what exactly does he mean by “not comfortable enough” and “cliquey”? He may have a valid point, given the “women’s chat group”, but he may also be projecting some sexist stereotypes of his own – or a combination thereof. It’s worth asking him what exactly he doesn’t like about your behavior and what he would like to see change. From there you can figure out what you really SHOULD change vs what he needs to hear is not really appropriate.

  43. AliceBD*

    Thanks to Alison’s advice I have a new job!!!!

    I was laid off last month, with two week’s warning before my last day. (And actually several month’s idea that there was a good chance I would be laid off, and it was really feeling more of a “when” than an “if”.) I got 4 weeks of severance and a payout of all my PTO (luckily I had over 2 weeks worth). I got offered a job just a few days over a month after my last day, and I start six weeks after my last day. I’m getting a 27% (!!!) pay raise and going into a position that is much better aligned with what I want to do long-term, with a boss who seems to actually care about professional development. I’m giddy with excitement. AAM was my guide throughout the process.

    Also, at the in-person interview last week, the hiring manager was very impressed with my questions, which were mostly from Alison’s book. :-)

  44. Keener*

    I manage an employee who is obviously pregnant (we suspect about 6 months along). She hasn’t said anything about her pregnancy yet, but myself and the other managers would like to know her plans so that we can plan resourcing/projects/workload appropriately. I’ve tried having a casual catch up with her and she didn’t say anything despite a discussion about summer plans, other colleagues on maternity leave, etc. To provide more context she is originally from Bangladesh, has been in Canada a few years and with the company less than a year. Any ideas/thoughts on how to approach it without explicitly asking? Is it ever appropriate to directly ask? We suspect she feels a little uncomfortable raising the topic given she is pretty new. Also are there any Bangladesh/Muslim cultural norms around pregnancy that would provide more context?

    1. Arielle*

      I can’t speak to what might be going on culturally with her, but I literally don’t think there is any way for you to ask someone directly if they are pregnant. It is possible to look pregnant without being pregnant. She could have something like Crohn’s disease or an ovarian tumor. She could just have gained weight! I think the best you can do is to give her resources on benefits in general, including maternity leave, to make sure she has them available.

      1. Keener (OP)*

        While it is possible to look pregnant without being we are 99% certain she is pregnant. Very distinct baby bump which has increased in size over the last few months, many work from home/not feeling well days in what would have been the first trimester (which have generally since stopped), doctors appointments with increasing frequency, etc.

        1. Detective Amy Santiago*

          Even if she is pregnant, you also don’t know the circumstances of it, so you definitely cannot ask. It’s possible she is acting as a surrogate for someone else or that the fetus is not viable, but she’s past the point of being able to terminate or it was the result of a sexual assault.

          How do you generally handle vacations/time off coverage/etc? Can you send out a calendar and say something like “can everyone let us know what their planned time off is coming up so we can organize coverage/etc”?

          1. valentine*

            Keener, all of your examples could be a tumor, other medical issue, or many other things. Your certainty it’s a pregnancy doesn’t change how you should proceed. Draft contingency plans. Lead by example and stop discussing her body.

            1. Not So NewReader*

              Sadly, I had a subordinate whose situation sounds very similar to this. It was stomach cancer.

              OP, as a manager your have to plan anyway. So why not make your plans public to the group? “Over the next three months, we need to accomplish A, B and C. As always we need to stay on track and meet deadlines X, Y and Z. So I need you folks to check in with me if you are having concerns, delays or if you need anything.”
              You can develop a habit of making similar announcements and speaking this way each time.

              She may indeed be pregnant and she may have decided to give notice instead of taking leave. This story can go in several different directions. It’s a good idea to have a plan of how you would replace any of your employees at any time. This entire time that you have spent on her could leave you blind-sided by the fact that Bob won the lottery and he will quit tomorrow.

    2. Intel Analyst Shell*

      Don’t ask if she’s pregnant. When I went off birth control to try and get pregnant I gained 30lbs in 2 months due to an unknown hormone issue. I would have been devastated if anyone had asked if I was pregnant. Like the commenter above mentioned, just leave the benefit policy for her to review.

    3. Kathenus*

      Agree that it can be problematic from an HR standpoint to ask directly. Since if she is pregnant you seem to have some idea of the timetable, can you begin considering how you’ll handle it if she does go out, and begin making at least tentative plans just in case?

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      What are your company’s policies around family/maternity leave? If she’s been there less than a year do those policies apply to her? (In the states, FMLA protections and often maternity leave don’t kick in until someone has been employed for a year, I’m not sure about Canada). Do they include a specific notice period by which she has to file a claim/alert HR/etc?

      I would not recommend directly asking her. In my personal experience, for many cultures in that region, pregnancy is a very private thing that is not discussed, but it is also sometimes considered bad luck to announce it too early. She may be waiting until further along to announce, she may not be pregnant, there may be something else going on. If you can, speak with your company’s HR department for guidance- I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s something that’s come up before and they may have suggestions on the best way to proceed. That said, can you create two different plans- one for if she’s out and one for if she’s not?

      1. iglwif*

        In Canada, basically the only thing companies get to decide about maternity & parental leave policy is whether they will “top up” (pay employees some or all of the difference between the Employment Insurance benefit they get while on maternity and/or parental leave and their regular pay), by how much, and for how long.

        If you give birth, you can take up to 17 weeks’ mat leave. Either parent (including adoptive parents) can then take up to 63 weeks’ parental leave, divided up however they choose. But you legally don’t have to notify your employer that you’re taking the leave until 4 weeks before you take it — although IME most people start negotiating that whole situation much sooner.

        1. Troutwaxer*

          I would wonder whether the employee is well-enough versed in Canadian employment law to understand her rights and/or responsibilities? Would it be possible to have a general meeting in which employment rights are discussed and the issues of Canadian law vs. pregnancy are made clear?

    5. Reba*

      Sorry, I think you just cannot ask. You could think about what plans you would put in place in case *any* employee were to suddenly need medical leave.

      I have no idea about Bangladesh, but in other Muslim cultural contexts I know well, there is definitely a taboo around asking about or directly referencing a pregnancy until the baby is here! I am not at all sure if this is an Islam thing, but as I understand it, it’s like the way we think of “jinxing” something in the U.S. — to attract negative luck by drawing attention to your good fortune.

      Anyway, it’s possible this kind of cultural norm is in play, it’s possible it isn’t, you can’t ask.

    6. Wishing You Well*

      Don’t ask. You don’t know whether she’s pregnant or not. Her body is not anyone’s business, even if you mean well.

    7. Candy*

      Legally, she only needs to give you four weeks notice before beginning mat leave. So her being from Bangladesh and/or Muslim and/or new has nothing to do with it. In a couple months when she gives you notice, then you can begin your planning for her projects while she’s on leave

    8. iglwif*

      Ack, this is so awkward! You’re looking at potentially needing to hire for a 12-month leave and you have no idea when or even if that’s going to happen. But … I don’t think you can ask. “She’s pregnant” definitely seems like the most likely explanation here but as other people have pointed out, there’s a bunch of other things it could also be. And I’m pretty sure it’s never appropriate to say to someone, especially at work, “Are you pregnant?”

      Has she been working full-time in Canada long enough to get EI for mat/par leave? If you’ve had conversations with her about other colleagues on mat leave, then hopefully she at least has some idea how mat/par leave works (you get to take a reasonable amount of time off; you get some level of income) and has maybe seen how it’s been handled for other people? That’s the kind of thing that IME doesn’t typically get addressed so well in HR benefits briefings when people start at a new company, because the only thing that changes from place to place is whether the company tops up your EI, for how long, and how much.

      I have nothing useful to say really but I am full of sympathy for everyone in this situation :/

      1. Keener (OP)*

        You’ve hit the nail on the head iglwif.

        I am in an industry where hiring to fill a temporary position can be challenging or impossible. So we’re probably looking at modifying what projects we accept and we really need to start doing this now if she is going to be going on leave sometime in the next couple of months. Alternatively, if someone happens to be available we’d rather know we need coverage ASAP so we don’t miss the opportunity.

        Additionally, she has some specialized skills that will be hard to replace. So we’ll likely not pursue some projects if we know she will be unavailable. On the other hand, if she isn’t going to be taking leave it would be a missed opportunity for her career advancement if we don’t pursue those opportunities. Our thought process and contingency planning for all of this changes depending upon whether she is taking no leave/3 months/12 months. Currently in our state of uncertainty we’ll probably lean towards being conservative in what we take on which is ashamed since it will ultimately limit her professional development opportunities (we don’t want to be stuck with commitments we can’t fulfill.)

    10. Gumby*

      As that wise sage Dave Barry told us, “You should never say anything to a woman that even remotely suggests you think she’s pregnant unless you can see an actual baby emerging from her at that moment.”

    11. masters student of none*

      I just want to add, even if she is pregnant, you have no idea what’s going on with her pregnancy. It might be high risk and she doesn’t want to have to tell people if something bad happens.

      1. DataGirl*

        That’s What i was thinking. I’ve known women who have dealt with multiple miscarriages, sometimes very far along, so they did not want to announce their pregnancy because if something bad happened they didn’t want to deal with people’s responses.

    12. Cows go moo*

      Tiptoeing around a pregnancy is something you see more in Western cultures. In Asian cultures (generally speaking) people tend to ask and discuss bluntly. It’s definitely unusual she has said nothing despite possibly approaching or being well into her third trimester.

      Let’s say she’s in the unlikely scenario of being a surrogate/adopting out the baby/not being pregnant at all. She will be aware she is visibly pregnant (or looking as though she is visibly pregnant). If it were your employee who was asking for advice I would suggest at least letting the employer know you won’t be requiring maternity leave, so they are not sitting there wondering and potentially factoring her out of future projects. Purely from a work perspective it seems odd to say absolutely nothing.

      If you want to avoid asking her directly, you could mention future work plans and ask if there is anything you need to consider regarding her availability for that time frame. Or send out a memo to everyone detailing parental leave information and mention that while the minimal notice is x weeks, having earlier notice would help a lot with planning and recruiting a temporary replacement.

    13. M*

      Completely second everyone saying you can’t just assume she’s pregnant and ask about that. But that doesn’t mean you can’t ask her about *anything*.

      You have an employee with an unusually increased frequency of sick days and doctors’ appointments. It’s OK to sit down with her and ask if there’s anything going on medically that might require her to take an extended period of leave, or require other workplace accommodations! You don’t need to – and shouldn’t – pry into the details, but you can give her an opening to start the conversation, and go from there. Obviously, you need to be careful about the tone of that conversation – you don’t want someone to feel like their use of allowed sick leave is getting them in trouble. You can be clear that it’s not a case of them doing anything wrong while still raising the planning issue you’d be facing if she needed an extended period of leave at short notice.

  45. GroundDown*

    My co-worker is leaving after three years without another job lined up. I can’t blame them because the position itself is flawed from the get go. It’s entry level supporting the department head (who is infamous for being distracted) and another worker who is amazingly disorganized. The position is also incredibly underpaid for our field. Turns out, their predecessor had similar issues but left due to a move (but also because the job sucked). So co-worker is trying to figure out what to highlight and how in the exit interview. The higher ups are slowly becoming keyed into the fact this position is facing issues but we’re both struggling with how to not burn a bridge but at least fan a small flame for HR.

    1. foolofgrace*

      I’ve found it pointless to be honest in an exit interview. It just goes to the former employee’s manager and may never get seen by anyone who can do anything.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Agreed. Your coworker would just be burning bridges. Over time, they could find themselves desperately needing a reference or a job from your company. There’s no upside to handing in a critique.

      2. Jules*

        My large corporation’s exit interview consists of multiple choice questions with a lack of appropriate answers. They truly DGAF.

  46. Temp to Hire*

    If you work in a field that’s usually temp-to-hire, how do you ever move on/move up? Taking a temp job when you’re unemployed is fine, but once you convert to a permanent full-time employee, it seems you’re stuck (or else have to take a huge risk). How do people handle this when it’s the norm for their industry?

    For reference, this isn’t a “just out of college” issue. I’m pushing 20 years in my field.

    1. Jess*

      Hard to answer without knowing the field. How have your higher-up colleagues gotten to where they are?

  47. Annabelle*

    I recently started a new job that I generally like, but am being pushed in a direction that I don’t like (that I have communicated to my manager and he’s said he’s working to get me on other projects). Important to note that this manager shares many personality qualities with Michael Scott.

    One thing that keeps happening is when my manager stops by and asks me how I’m liking my work that day, I’m saying something like “oh, it’s going” or “well… fine” he always responds with “well, do you like being employed?”. Am I wrong for getting worried and/or angered by this? I’ve told you I don’t like this work, it’s not what I was hired for, I’m not going to say how much I love it when I really would rather be doing anything else.

    1. Pebbles*

      I would start looking for another job that does give you the opportunity to do what you like. The manager is just going to keep browbeating you into accepting this position whether you like it or not. And in your interviews you can just say when they ask you why you’re looking for a new job that the job you were hired for wasn’t as advertised.

      1. valentine*

        ~Job-search.
        ~Tell him, “You keep asking if I like the work. Can we agree to drop the ritual and to share any concerns we have?”

    2. MsM*

      Why not pre-empt him? “I like having work, but I’d also like to know where things stand on those projects we discussed me taking on. Got an update?”

      And yes, keep looking elsewhere.

  48. Anon for this one*

    I am in a very small department. Someone in my department is retiring soon. Logically, I would probably be the person who would plan their retirement party (it would be a small get-together during work hours). Realistically, for a variety of excellent reasons, there is no way on God’s green earth that I’m planning anything for this person. Not sure what I’ll say if/when it comes up, since “LOL I wouldn’t even GO to that party, let alone plan it” probably isn’t an option. Thoughts?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Personally I’d fall back on the “gosh, so sorry, I’m so busy, I won’t be able to help out. Hope it goes well!”

    2. Enough*

      This is why the company needs a blanket policy. What gets done and who(position) is responsible to get it done.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      If it really is part of your job (as opposed to simply a most-likely-to situation) could you re-frame it in your mind as a “finally getting rid of this person party” in your brain?

      1. Anon for this one*

        It’s not part of my actual job. In fact, it’s nothing I’ve ever done on my own before (I’ve been on a planning committee, when my department was a lot larger). But due to the small size of my current department, and the number of people who work remotely, I’m the logical person at this point.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          Well, if you can’t get out of it and you can’t think of someone else to do it, I think planning what you privately think of as a “bye-bye, don’t let the door hit you in the butt” party could be fun. Bonus points if the honoree thinks you’re sad he’s leaving. Get YOUR favorite foods.

    4. Half-Caf Latte*

      My answer would really depend on whether your boss would say “no, I’m telling you to plan the party” – ie this isn’t a social function but a work responsibility (especially as it’s during work hours), and whether you’d be willing to take the consequences of refusing to perform a work responsibility.

      1. Anon for this one*

        My boss would understand but my grandboss doesn’t know the backstory and I believe it would, at the very least, influence their opinion of me.

        1. valentine*

          You sound like you’re willing to risk this, so, go for it. That is, do nothing. But celebrate their absence once sweet freedom is yours.

    5. Jess*

      If you’re willing to lose your job over this, “LOL I wouldn’t even GO to that party, let alone plan it,” is probably fine :)

      Otherwise, if you have a friend in the department who already knows your reasons, I might proactively ask them if they’d be willing to volunteer to plan it (or at least, step in for you if you are assigned to the task). And then return the favor somehow.

    6. Wishing You Well*

      I’d bring up the issue with your boss, as in,”I’m not in a position to plan Bluto’s retirement party. Have any thoughts on who could do it, etc?”
      I think forewarning your boss you’re not up to it is a good idea.

  49. Tigger*

    This isn’t a current situation I am dealing with in the workplace but I wanted to hear y’alls thoughts over this.

    I had a job in the past where my coworkers would sync their phones to the bluetooth speaker and would play Pandora or Spotify playlists for our work arena (this was the norm in the office. Everything was played at a low volume) Every so often ads would play and like all ads on social they would normally be tailored to the person or their demographic and typically unskippable. The majority of us were in our early 20’s so every so often there would be a safe sex ad. Our manager (male early 30’s) would not care if a trojan ad played but he would flip if a birth control ad played, even lecturing a coworker for it.

    What is y’alls take on this? Is this a norm for managers to flip out about targeted ads people can’t control?

    1. Colette*

      I would be very concerned about someone like that being in a position to manage people – to the point where I’d consider raising it with his manager or HR.

        1. valentine*

          It’s sexist, misogynistic, and gross, and I hope he sees the Twitter thread on how irresponsible ejaculation causes 100% of unwanted pregnancies, but his ire was preventable and y’all should’ve just not done the thing.

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      It’s not great for managers to flip out, full stop, let alone over *that*.

      As a 22 year old I wouldn’t have had the toolkit to bounce that back, but now I’d so fast be like “cool. Sounds like you should pay for an ad-free streaming service for the office, boss!” and then chat with my lovely HR rep about the lecture.

      1. Louise*

        Ah yes but you see men are allowed to have autonomy over their bodies while women are not. /s

  50. Nynaeve*

    People who have escaped adjunct hell: share your secrets!

    My friend is worried because her adjunct positions are becoming increasingly precarious. Our state recently passed legislation that stopped schools from offering college credit for developmental writing classes, so there are just fewer classes to go around, and even though she has a lot of seniority in the adjunct pool at her two schools, classes are offered to full-time faculty first. She got fewer composition classes this semester, which isn’t financially sustainable for her. But she feels stuck because she needs a certain amount of money to pay her student loans and doesn’t feel qualified for anything else. Going back to school is not an option (see student loans).

    If you got a full-time position, what worked for you? Bonus points if you were an adjunct for several years in a saturated field and recently got hired.

    If you got the hell out of academia, how did you do it and what are you doing now? Specifics about how you positioned your transferable skills in your resume/cover letter/interview would be incredibly helpful.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. Justin*

      I went to nonprofit adult education, told a story about how the uncertainty challenged my time and project management skills. I talked about my skills working with/teaching adults and I got the job. Have stayed away from adjuncting since.

    2. Dasein9*

      I got laid off from a tenured position, so have left academia unwillingly. Now I’m working as a writer and adjuncting online. The communication skills your friend no doubt has will serve her well in fields like training, technical writing, and the like. This is work companies are discovering they can’t contract out from other countries, since English is such a complex language.

    3. Zephy*

      Re: student loans. If they’re Federal loans, there are a few income-based repayment options that will reduce the amount she owes monthly. (Interest will still accrue, and of course it’ll take longer to pay off, but that’s better than defaulting.) If her income is low enough, her payment will drop to $0/month, but making that $0 payment will still “count” as a payment-in-good-faith for purposes of avoiding default and/or potential future loan forgiveness. If they’re private loans (Sallie Mae, Discover, etc) then the above doesn’t apply, and instead I’ll just direct some good job-hunt vibes your friend’s way.

      1. Nynaeve*

        Good vibes are appreciated. Her lender is currently being sued by five states for shady practices like misleading people about their repayment options. I’m fairly sure she’s on an IBR plan, but she got screwed out of other options that she didn’t find out she was qualified for until it was too late. So, not a great situation.

    4. blackcat*

      I would tell her to look for technical writing/editing jobs. Some of my friends did that. They stressed their ability to communicate with a wide range of personalities/skill sets (true of a good teacher), ability to be flexible w/ settings (true of adjuncts) and process a lot of writing very quickly (very true of english adjuncts).

      I know of no one who went from adjunct hell to TT/FT positions at non-profit/state schools that lasted more than 2 years (several acquaintances got hired but then the institutions went under/laid off non tenured faculty). I’ve seen people do fine after VAP limbo, but never adjunct hell.

      No one I know who has left academia regrets it. Not one.

    5. Forkeater*

      My friend quit adjuncting and is currently a substitute teacher in the public schools, working on a certificate so she can get a permanent teaching role in k-12. She’s very happy.

    1. Goose Lavel*

      Sorry I can’t comment as I don’t have a paid subscription to review the article.

      Anyway you could post a link I could View?

      1. CatCat*

        Bummer. I get access through my public library. Not sure of your browser, but sometimes Chrome’s “incognito” mode will let you get around a pay wall.

      2. Delphine*

        Your browser’s incognito mode will usually give you access to a couple of free articles.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      To be honest, I … don’t want my friends texting me about their digestive, elimination or other bodily functions at all, let alone often enough that they have to implement a Process for doing so to make sure it’s not interrupting me at work. /curmudgeon

    3. motherofdragons*

      I block out these memories of myself, but I’ve definitely enjoyed some snafus that others have made! We use videoconferencing pretty regularly at my workplace, and one time I had to text a meeting participant that while she had tried to cover her laptop camera with a post-it before applying her makeup, she had failed (spectacularly) to do so, such that every one else in the meeting could see her. The best/worst part was that the presentation was being recorded, and she was crushed when I told her there was no way to edit that part out without losing a chunk of the presentation itself!

    4. Annabelle*

      This just happened to me at work – I was sharing my screen with an older male coworker to better illustrate a problem I’d been having, but it shared the screen showing my spotify browser rather than the screen with the design. I’ve been listening to Nicole Byers’ podcast (Why Won’t You Date Me?) that has some rather… nsfw titles.

      I immediately closed it but he commented about the title and had started to read some of the episodes out loud. I wanted to hide under my desk for the day. This should be a cautionary tale to everyone that has ever said “oh no one will see this I’ll be fine”

      Examples of episodes include: Bad Hookups, We’re Getting Juiced, Would You Date a ChuckleF***er?, and Bad Threesomes.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      My job is to essentially poke holes in presentations — essentially I do the stress test — does this make sense? What will the regulators think? Are there hidden dangers? Are all our I’s dotted and T’s crossed?
      The number of screen shares I have seen where someone emails the presenter and calls me a b*tch are uncountable.

      1. Never*

        Where can I get this job? I’m really good at being extremely critical of presentations. lol

    6. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Timely! My boss sent this to us this morning after we talked about this very thing in a meeting. I have seen it soooo often that I close down all of my programs (I do not trust Do Not Disturb features) before I share my screen.

      The worst I’ve seen wasn’t really THAT bad, but it was stupid. I worked with a salesperson and went to give a new business presentation with her. She had screenshots of our Web-based tool included in her PowerPoint. She took them directly from her browser, as one does, but… everyone could see her other tabs, including the one with her resume and a couple of others that were obviously job ads. So she was job hunting at work. And (inadvertently) sharing that with clients. When we got in the car to go back to the city I mentioned it to her and suggested she change her screenshots. I also promised I wouldn’t say anything to her boss, and I didn’t, but she did other dumb stuff that got her let go a few weeks later.

      Recently, my boss and I moved to the conference room because his display wasn’t working and he wanted to share what he was doing. He connected his laptop to our system and his inbox appeared on the (freaking giant) screen. There was a subject line with my name in it basically indicating that he had asked everyone in the company if they wanted to attend one of my outside-of-work performances, and oh yeah, it also said “SURPRISE!!!!.” I asked him what that was about and he said he had no idea. So when they all show up next week, I will have worked very hard on my “surprised” face. (Frankly, that incident also gives me the opportunity to get used to the idea, because I actually kind of dislike it but I know they’re trying to be supportive.)

    7. Elizabeth West*

      Oh nooooooooooooo hahahahahaaha, the pr0n one–I would literally die. :’D

      I generally don’t use my work computer for anything I wouldn’t want to pop up on a screen. If I absolutely can’t wait to google something until I get home, like if I suddenly get a weird pain or something, I try to do it on my phone. My personal phone, which I also don’t use for work.

    8. epi*

      I used to be a coordinator in academic medicine, at a children’s hospital. One of my jobs was going to morning case conference. Our residents who rotated through our department had to give presentations at this conference. They were getting a few months’ exposure to peds as part of a larger specialty, so they’d be assigned to give an overview of a some pediatric condition and a recent case of that condition that came through our department.

      One morning, part of the way into conference so everyone was there, a resident came up who wanted to connect his own laptop to the projector. He connected, but he hadn’t actually pulled up his presentation yet and had to spend a minute looking for it while we all waited. His desktop was covered in folders of what were obviously torrented movies. Not super professional, but not the end of the world. I was not the only one who amused themselves by silently reading all the titles while we waited.

      Group Sex. One of the folders was just called Group Sex. If I had had time to read all the folder names, so had everyone else. But we waited in near silence. I was near the back of the room, so I could hear one of my favorite fellows, sitting behind me, chuckle, and whisper to herself, “Group Sex”.

      If the resident noticed at the time, he gave no sign of it. But I assume he figured it out later, relaxing at home, maybe at the end of presentation day, thinking about watching a movie. Group Sex.

  52. Pebbles*

    My husband is currently looking for a job and working with a recruiter. The recruiter has told him to get more recommendations on his LinkedIn profile, and to reach out to people he knows at companies that are hiring to give them (the people) his resume so that they can pass it on to the hiring manager. I thought recommendations weren’t really looked at by hiring managers and handing out resumes to people to pass on was frowned upon (i.e. a hiring manager doesn’t want to see the same resume through multiple avenues since it’s more work for them)? I haven’t had to look for a job in many years so I don’t know if the recruiter is giving good advice or not. Thoughts?

    1. Colette*

      If they’re people he knows well (ideally if he has worked with them) and he knows them to be competent, then yes, he should let them know he’s applied, ask them to recommend him if they think it’s a good fit, and include his resume. He could also ask people he knows what they think of the company.

      But yeah, I think LinkedIn recommendations carry more weight than referrals, but not a lot.

    2. wandering_beagle*

      I’ve been a consultant (contractor, whatever you want to call it) that has worked with several recruiting companies over the last 5+ years and had contact with many more. I’ve never had a recruiter ask me to do that. Also, it strikes me as very odd that the recruiter is asking your husband to reach out to companies. That is literally the job of the recruiter – they have relationships with companies, chase down job leads, find out what companies’ job needs are, and then try to find the job seekers who can fill those needs.

      1. Pebbles*

        The recruiter is finding the companies that have jobs to fill, but is then asking him to reach out to people that already work for the company, since there’s a personal connection there. Sorry if I wasn’t clear.

        1. wandering_beagle*

          Like someone else mentioned, if he’s reaching out to a close contact at the company with the opening, that seems fine.

          It still seems a bit strange to me that the recruiter is asking him to do this. The recruiting companies I’ve worked with it’s *their* job to cultivate the relationships at the companies with openings, so they can then reach out to them and pass along the job seeker’s resume. It’s kind of like a back channel, and it’s the benefit (imo) of going through a recruiter – you don’t have to do the leg work that you are saying they’re asking your husband to do.

          It seems risky to me that the recruiter is asking him to do this — like you said, passing out one’s resume to a contact could backfire in a major way (come across as unprofessional, annoying, etc.).

        2. ChachkisGalore*

          Oh. No… That’s really weird. That’s not how external recruiters work. Or rather how it’s supposed to work. External recruiters typically do not want the candidate to have any contact with the company outside of them because it could jeopardize their commission (unlikely to actually do so, but it’s their livelihood, so it would be very strange to encourage actions that have any possibility to do so).

          The LinkedIn part I can sort of get. I don’t think recommendations hold much weight, but I can see how upping the number of recommendation on their LinkedIn profile could make the profile, as a whole, seem a bit “better”. Like if you had two candidates with the exact same skill set, experience level, strength of cover letter, then you go pull up the two candidates LinkedIn profile the one with more recommendations might stand out just a tiny bit more.

          Seriously though, a recruiter telling someone to reach out to a company (even indirectly, just through current employees) it’s very strange. I guess, unless it was an off-handed comment along the lines “oh yeah, if you happen to know anyone working there, feel free to have them put in a good word”, but it doesn’t really sound like that’s the case

    3. irene adler*

      Silly advice.
      Networking. That’s what hubby needs to do.
      Find the local chapter of the professional organization for hubby’s industry. They will have networking events. Get involved with them. Ask if they know any industry-specific recruiters that hubby can work with (might have to ask multiple people before you find someone who knows someone).

      Find a local job search group- like on Meetup.com. Join them. They will have lots of advice on job searching.
      Find temp agencies that are industry specific to hubby’s industry. Get hubby’s resume into their system.

      Find the industry specific Groups on LinkedIn. Join and contribute. IF you see someone who is associated with a company that has a job opening, might contact that someone and ask them to tell you about the company, and ask them for interview advice. Don’t ask them to forward hubby’s resume.

      It could be worthwhile to contact people he knows at other companies. IF the company has a job opening that interests hubby, he can then ask his contacts about the job, the company and ask for their advice/suggestions for the interview or what they are really looking for in the position. If they are comfortable, his contacts could bring hubby’s resume to the attention of the Hiring Manager- along with their recommendation. That could pan out.

      Lose this recruiter.

    4. AliceBD*

      I was laid off last month, and worked with an outplacement firm my previous employer paid for. The person I was working with said to get more LinkedIn recommendations, and I dutifully sent quick notes to a couple of people. One of them sent a recommendation, and I didn’t think anything else of it. I also did not think they carried any kind of weight and were basically useless.

      BUT. The hiring manager of the job I accepted this week mentioned a particular comment from my LinkedIn recommendations. (I said I was good at xyz, he said yes, I saw so-and-so had mentioned that in their LinkedIn recommendation.) He had clearly read them thoughtfully and not just seen that they were there. So some hiring managers might actually put weight on the recommendations.

    5. Jerry Vandesic*

      He might want to focus on finding some other recruiters to work with, maybe some that don’t put as much value on LI recommendations. He should have several recruiters he is working with, to give him more exposure and a wider range of feedback.

  53. CupcakeCounter*

    So I’ve decided to put out some feelers for a new position and have gotten very positive feedback so far – 2 HR phone screens, a phone interview for next week and an in person the following. My issue is attire. I’ve been at me current job for 6 1/2 years and we are a very casual environment (jeans and nicer tops) so I’ve slowly purged my closet of nearly all of my business attire. What I do have left simply doesn’t fit. Finding suits has always been an issue since I have very broad shoulders, big boobs, and a small waist which results in very ill fitting jackets.

    How important is a traditional suit anymore? I know there are a lot of places where there can be lots of other options but I work in corporate finance and these interviews are for higher level individual contributor roles (Financial Analyst). I’ve ordered several things and they really have not worked out so looking for other really polished and professional looking options for the interview.

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      I think only folks in corporate finance could respond to this! My (uninformed) guess would be that a suit is necessary for many/most interviews in corporate finance, as I imagine it’s a pretty conservative field. (But I also imagine that it would vary significantly by company.)

      For me, in my (very different) field, I don’t really need to wear a suit these days, even to interviews. My most formal work outfits involve either a business dress and a (non-matching) blazer, or black trousers + a blouse + a gray tweed blazer (or something similar).

    2. MsM*

      You can probably go with separates as long as they’re matching, but I would err on the side of traditional for corporate finance roles. Maybe just invest in a tailored blazer?

    3. Myka Bering*

      I came here to ask something almost identical. I’ve been in tech for the last decade (jeans and t-shirts) and now I have a formal in-person interview next week in a classic business office atmosphere. I know I need to wear a suit, but do I have to wear a button-down too? Or would a shell be ok? Do I button the jacket or leave it open? Heels required, or are flats required? I’m so out of practice!

      1. CupcakeCounter*

        I’ve never worn a button up (see boobs comment above) and have gotten several jobs with a shell.
        Heels or flats are both acceptable as long as the pants are hemmed properly for flats. Avoid open toe shoes

    4. Cupcake*

      I have a similar fit problem with blazers. For my last roubd of job hunting, I went to Dillard’s and the sales person recommended some knitwear outfits made by Ming Wang. They look professional, but the fabric is stretchy and skims the body nicely.

      The ones I bought had a shell, pants, and a long, open jacket that has a single fastener at the top.

    5. ChachkisGalore*

      I’m in finance (asset management) and I think things in the industry have relaxed… A lot (based on my last job search about a year ago). Aside external presenting folks or meeting days, it seemed like most places I interviewed at were business casual (basically anything “above” jeans and sometimes casual Fridays.

      I also did not interview in formal suits – I’d do separates (grey skirt, sleeveless shell, black blazer) on the first interview and then sometimes a dress and a blazer to second or third rounds. Can’t say for sure, but it didn’t seem to cause any waves (I worked almost exclusively with external recruiters so I think they would have told me or dropped me if interviewees had an issue).

      Unfortunately I do think suit type outfit or blazer might be needed/a good idea for interviews (even though the overall dress codes seem to be relaxing I feel like pretty formal attire is still expected in interviews), but I don’t think you’ll need a closet full

      1. ChachkisGalore*

        Oh to add – I had one blazer/jackey that looked like a typical shape and somewhat structured, but was stretchy (I think a cotton stretch – think like the thick material bandage dresses can be made in or pencil skirts). That seemed to go over just fine.

        So I think you could be fine with less formal/not typical “suit” materials, as long as the shapes are pretty formal or traditional)

    6. only acting normal*

      Could you get an off-the-peg suit altered to fit you better? Taking in at the waist is one of the easier alterations for a jacket (though I’d still go to a professional tailor).

    7. Grace Less*

      What about a well-fitting or tailored dress with nice accessories? (Think First Lady Michelle Obama)

    8. Dr. Anonymous*

      Sadly I think you need to get at least one suit whose jacket can serve as a blazer with other outfits and spend whatever you have to to get it tailored to fit you. Blazers carry a certain gravitas that can work magic.

  54. carrie heffernan*

    Is it weird that I don’t have a 5-year plan? I used to think I wanted to manage people but now I know that I certainly do not, so where does that leave me? I really like my current job and being an individual contributor but I don’t want to be stagnant either. I definitely want to continue growing and moving up but not sure what that entails.

    1. Half-Caf Latte*

      I don’t think so.

      What I thought I wanted to do, I’m really glad I didn’t go back to grad school for. When I was in my masters program at 32, I thought- gee I could be further ahead in my career if I had done this at 25. But I also had the wisdom to know- I wouldn’t have gotten as much out of the program at 25 as I did at 32.

      I’m planning to be in my current role for a while, but I also stepped off of the C-suite track into an individual contributor role because I realized it would allow me to be professionally fulfilled AND have better work-life balance.

      Before this role, I took on new roles every 2-ish years, and mostly that was when I had gotten stagnant and was looking for new challenges, and I just surveyed the landscape to see what was around at the time.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      I gave up making 5-year plans nearly 20 years ago. At a certain point in life, 5 years is approximately the interval when you can expect some major life change/disruption to happen, whether good (marriage, baby, fantastic opportunity) – or bad (layoff, immediate family dying, housing/financial disaster, major health problem).

      None of the best things/opportunities in my life were things I planned, and none of the worst things could have been averted by planning.

      It’s a good thought exercise to figure out what you want and set some goals. But there’s no point taking it too seriously.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      Not weird at all – I don’t have one either outside of “not be homeless.” I follow my interests, wherever they may lead me, and don’t worry about it. Anytime I try to plan, my plans blow up in my face, so I just stopped, lol.

  55. AnAnon*

    Hi! A question: my boyfriend works as an independent contractor for a company registered in California. He lives abroad in Europe. He is the lead of a department of 3. He is paid hourly and has no benefits, and is not paid overtime. How legal is this?

      1. De Minimis*

        Yeah if this were the US I’d really think it wasn’t legal [especially with it being a CA company] but there might be some crazy exception due to it being international.

        1. valentine*

          The laws where the work is done reign, but a CA employer should honor their own laws out of sheer decency.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Independent contractors in the US have a whole different set of laws governing their work. I’m an independent contractor in the US, and I get paid by the job, not the hour, and it doesn’t always even work out to minimum wage, much less overtime wages.

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      It’s probably not legal.

      1. He sounds like a full time employee. The company can’t just decide someone is an independent contractor- it depends on how much control the company has over his time.

      2. The company has to follow labor laws both where they are based and where their employees are based.

      Your boyfriend should contact the California department of labor to complain.

      1. Darren*

        Well given his location and remoteness they might be able to argue that they don’t have a lot of control of his time, after all he is in another country and could come and go pretty much as he pleased without them being able to do much.

        But to me I wonder if they’ve set him up as a sort of off-shoring deal, where he is the head of the off-shore company and invoices the main company for the hours worked for his guys and himself, at agreed hourly rates. It would likely allow them to dodge a lot of regulations in the US since officially they get invoices with hours worked (and rates charged by the “level” of the work similar to like legal billing for example) and pay those and that is the extent of the arrangement from their side they don’t really need to care about overtime pay or anything else that is all on the other legal entity.

        Whoever is in charge of the European entity might be afoul of European regulations however which are usually much stricter, if they were smart though they set up the boyfriend as that person though.

    4. AcademiaNut*

      I think you need to talk to an employment lawyer with a speciality in international employment law to figure that out, because once you add international boundaries into the mix things get really complicated. I would guess that something dodgy is going on, but the problem is not necessarily going to be what you might think. It might also turn out that the whole setup is illegal and the job will disappear if challenged (ie, they can’t just switch to paying as an employee to make things right).

  56. Justin*

    Couple things.

    TLDR: 1. My coworker didn’t have her contract renewed and I feel bad even though it’s not my fault.
    2. I feel isolated at work, and although I no longer blame myself for this, it messes with my mental health.

    1. I mentioned a while ago that an older coworker was struggling to the point where I was placed on her project and how she had a lot of quirks (TMI digestion issue discussions, dozens of emails a day, showing up at my desk while I’m eating and talking at me, etc.) that were annoying. But the real issue was, the work was really bad. Like, awful. Simple errors I couldn’t believe. I tried to soft pedal my comments, but eventually we fell behind. I managed to save the (still ongoing) project, but it became clear it was only because I grabbed ahold of it. And I tried to “save” her as much as I could, but her contract wasn’t renewed (she was already on thin ice after two previous projects hadn’t gone well). So now she’lll be leaving next week. I feel really bad, but the work was bad. It was just bad. The managers tried to help and so I did, but it was not the right fit. And I only mention her age because I feel bad it might be hard for her to find another similarly well-compensated position (especially since she struggles with lots of it). She doesn’t blame me for her outcome – she told me as much – and I feel like the project really only improved once I stopped spending more time trying to manage her feelings than getting the work done. But I still think it’s sad. Not that I really want to be her friend or anything (she has some, uh, racial blind spots).

    2. I tend to feel isolated at work, and this has been true in most of my jobs.

    I taught overseas first, so I was the only person who wasn’t from that country. People were nice, but cultural/language barrier.

    I came home, had many part-time teaching jobs.

    Got a full time managerial position for previous job, but my “department” was me and the woman who worked for me, so we couldn’t really be friends like that.

    Now at this job, people are kind. But, aside from the managers, there’s three main groups. The people who keep to themselves, the men, and the women (This is a crude way of breaking it up but trust me, these are the groups on this 20 person team). I’m not saying it should be this way, but it is. The women tend to go out for coffee, and the men (who sit near me) talk about the most generically dull things (basically just baseball and movies, things I love, but not all the time). So I have ended up in the “people who keep to themselves” group.

    And frankly, it really activates the part of my depression where I tend to feel very isolated. (I have a therapist, don’t worry.)

    Everyone is kind and so forth, no one is doing anything wrong. But I still spend most of my time at work in a given week, and unless I’m actually teaching (which is rare these days, though I taught yesterday, and that was nice), or having a meeting, I don’t end up talking to people much. I know on AAM many of you might prefer that, and I don’t want a tech-bro craft beer pool table work thing, but after 11 years of post-college working, I still don’t have any good friends from my jobs, and certainly not from this one. And it’s getting old.

    I’m mostly just venting. I try to talk to everyone in as natural a way as possible – I can be socially awkward – but ultimately, people don’t ask me to get a coffee, this job isn’t after-work-social save once or twice a year, and it drains me.

    That is all, have a nice day everyone, sorry for writing so much.

    1. wandering_beagle*

      Ugh, I can totally relate to the work isolation feeling. It really can suck. Part of it is on me – even though I’m friendly, people perceive me as quiet/keep-to-myself. So, when everyone gets up to go for a walk, I often don’t get the invite. Not out of any maliciousness; I think people just assume I don’t want to participate. At a lot of my workplaces, too, I’ve ended up in positions where I don’t have contact with that many people.

      When I start to feel lonely/isolated I try to focus on my other friendships/relationships/activities outside of work. This issue, for me, is one reason why I’m considering a career switch, though.

      Anyway, just want to say I can relate! I hope you are able to find some small ways that make your day less isolating.

      1. Justin*

        Yeah, my life outside of work is fine. I am also a student and enjoy (some of) my classmates and most of my professors. My wife isn’t the most social person but I do love her, obviously. And though I’m not the closest to them, I enjoy speaking to my family and friends. And my puppy is a mix of 5 am freezing walks and pure joy.

        But like you said, I wish I could translate it to work. I hope I can finally find the right mix at a future job/team. Getting close to time when I might want to look.

        1. valentine*

          The less you help racist incompetents keep their jobs, the sooner someone good may be your next colleague?

          1. Justin*

            Hahah. Well, she was never going to be dismissed sooner than this. So I didn’t exactly prolong her tenure, thankfully.

            It’s true, I feel bad for her mostly because I’m actually a softie at heart. She tried to play oppression olympics a lot – no one wins at this game – and it was that sort of “benign” race stuff I’ve been conditioned to ignore because being an angry black guy is, nope.

    2. The Grammarian*

      I also feel isolated at work (I work from home, but it was like this at previous jobs, too). I don’t know what to do about it, but I certainly commiserate.

  57. Googlymooglies*

    When a company is courting you, what due diligence do you always make sure to do when finding out more about the position?

    I’ve been rereading some of the old AAM pieces about what questions to ask in an interview, but the long version is, this company recently reached out to me and asked me to come in for an interview. At first I gently declined, as I started at my current position about 8 months ago and was planning to stay for at least 3 years, but then the recruiter said “What could we do to change your mind,” so I emailed them my current salary and benefits and essentially said “make me an offer, but if you can’t, here’s the contact info for another person I think would be a good fit.” The recruiter responded, saying that the position pays more and has better benefits, and the boss specifically asked after me, so I agreed to come in for an interview, as to avoid burning any bridges and to make sure I wasn’t missing an opportunity that would be much better.

    I’ve already decided the pay needs to be at least 15-20% more than what I’m making now. The commute is 4 times the distance to this new place, and my current supervisor is very supportive and understanding of some health issues I’m dealing with at the moment. But if they did offer me a huge increase in salary, what are other good questions to ask and things to check in on? I’m thinking things like, family leave, diversity/inclusion initiatives, bonuses, upward mobility, how things like sexual harassment etc are viewed and handled…

    1. irene adler*

      Salary: annual review/increases? Or will you be at hiring salary for years to come?
      PTO, benefits, quality of the health care coverage

    2. PalmTrees*

      I’d also ask about possibly working from home a few days a week/month if the commute is much longer. I always ask about management styles/working styles and internal culture. It helps to talk to current employees too, if you can.

    3. Darren*

      I would be asking about some sort of guarantees (and in fact will be doing so in a couple of weeks myself with a similar situation). You are leaving a job where you have a supportive and understanding supervisor for a relative unknown, you likely know that you are performing well, and you just can’t be sure if that will be the case at this new place (in my case I’ve been here 5 years and never gotten below meets expectations and usually above, and I know I’m on the high performers track with a good chance but not a promise of another promotion in a couple of years).

      Sure I want them to exceed the salary of my current position, but to me that’s not enough as I’m going to be trading the stability of the known for potentially a riskier position (I’ll have to rebuild my reputation again at the new place). As a result there will be a lot of questions about culture, career progression (especially for Individual Contributor roles), diversity, etc like you are mentioning but I’d also be looking to negotiate away the probation period (which I imagine will be the easy part), and negotiate in the CEO-style guaranteed minimum pay for a 2-3 year stint (i.e. if I’m fired for anything but gross misconduct, so poor performance won’t cut it I have to actually do something seriously wrong) they have to payout either the residual of that agreed pay. If I leave willingly (retirement or quit) the payment is void (so it offers them retention guarantees as well making it not entirely one-sided). Even so I expect this to be a hard sell, but given the fact they are courting me, and I’m relatively senior as an individual contributor it might be manageable (I expect I’ll need a lawyer to help with drafting the clause however).

  58. Nervous about leaving*

    I’m going to have to give notice next week because I’m moving abroad in a couple of months.
    I’m really nervous.
    Although my work place shows some symptoms of toxicity, certain aspects of my job are amazing. So the goodbye will be bittersweet.
    The issue is, they take leaving VERY personally and managers giving notice often become enemies and traitors. And my notice period is 2 months (standard in my country) so it can get really bad.
    So when I talk to my boss, I’d like him to understand that it’s a private decision (I am moving abroad because my boyfriend is from country X, lives there, we have been LD and we had to take a decision). I also want to include that it’s a recent decision (couldn’t have told them earlier to give them more time to find someone new for my position). I don’t have a job lined up, I’m gonna attend language school (I was just admitted to a prestigious language program for the summer so my date for moving is set in stone.)
    Could you help me with some scripts that get my point through without revealing too much? I know that there’s not much to do when they have an unhealthy approach but I’d like to minimize damages.

    1. Kathenus*

      See an earlier post (11:03 am from Anon for this) on this topic. I’m pasting my response from there, just ignore if some details/pronouns don’t fit your situation correctly:

      I know that being worried about the reaction to giving notice is pretty common, but it shouldn’t be. Please don’t overthink this. It’s a normal part of business, and your only responsibility is to do this professionally – give an appropriate notice, work with your current boss on what the priorities are for your notice period to ease the transition, and act professionally during the last weeks. That’s it. You are not responsible for your boss’s feelings, and you should try to get in a mindset where you don’t let her control yours.

      Practice the script with a friend ahead of time. Have your typed letter (as many HR departments require this) ready and just let her know that you’ve accepted another position, your last day is XX, and that you’ve really enjoyed your time at this organization. That’s it. You don’t need to tell her your start date at your new job, and even if she somehow finds out you do not need to justify taking a week off between jobs. If she tries to push back, just repeat that the decision is made, and what can you do to make the transition as easy as possible during your last weeks. Rinse and repeat.

      Do not give her power over you by taking on her emotions, toxicity, or unprofessionalism. And don’t get into a cycle where you try to justify leaving, your notice, or anything about what you do once you leave. Just do a great job for the rest of the time you’re there and let her deal with her own part in this of setting the plan of how to move forward.

    2. only acting normal*

      If the goal is to avoid the whole “you’re leaving you traitor!” vibe, lay it on really thick about how you’ll miss the job terribly and wish you could both emigrate for love and keep working for them forever and ever. Basically seem more torn about the decision than you are. Or redirect every attempted guilt trip with how awesomely excited you are to begin your new life.

  59. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

    So I order supplies for our office, and over my three years here I’ve noticed a trend with one of the managers. If something is going wrong in her personal life, pet sick, kid not doing well in school, parent ill, etc, then she will suddenly start needing things from me at work. She’ll want a new keyboard, mouse, mousepad, new pens, new colored binders and post it notes. She’ll ask to switch desks, or phones, or get new computer monitors, or a new seat cushion or back support. This week, she sent me an email asking me to pray for her aging cat, because he was not doing well. :( An hour later she asked for a new ($200) mouse, and a different (pink) stapler.

    We have a generous budget for office supplies, but still one that would be quickly depleted if *everyone* in our office got special items the way she does. And I think the time is past due where I need to set more boundaries for her. Especially when her new mouse costs as much as taking the team to lunch!

    What are some scripts to help me delicately push back? It’s harder knowing why she’s acting this way, and I haven’t pushed back yet because I feel like I’m kicking someone when they’re down. But at this point…I feel like we’ve done all the specific accommodating we should do and I do not like the precedent I’ve set.

    1. Zephy*

      What could she possibly need a $200 mouse for? At that price point it’s probably a gaming mouse, is she playing League in there or something??

      1. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

        Hahaha! I love your comment. Its one of those vertical mice. We just had a person join the team who insisted we buy him one, because he had one at his old job and he couldn’t use the regular mice anymore. His boss came to me and basically said: “I don’t like this, but we’re getting him the mouse.” Okay!

        The way the shopping-spree manager asked was: “Order this for me, I want to try it.” I have a feeling its going to be on a shelf in our supply room in a few weeks.

    2. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      I don’t think you can point out her pattern of stress-shopping, but hopefully it’s easy enough to say “from now on we’re cutting back on supply purchases that reflect preferences and not needs.”

      So pink staplers = never, and $200 mouse = “do you have a need for an ergonomic mouse? If so we can look into putting in a request as a medical accommodation and then shop around.”

      Good time to use the passive voice. (I LOVE the passive voice!) “It’s been decided” rather than “I have decided.”

      1. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

        I’ll put this into practice for next time for sure! I already ordered the mouse (unfortunately), but I can definitely push back on the stapler today.

    3. Kathenus*

      Who decides the supply budget, and therefore can help set standards for what/how much/how often custom supplies can be purchased? I’d suggest finding that out so that you are not reacting to her specifically, but using her requests as a way to find out what the procedures should be. Then you might learn it’s fine to keep getting these unless you’re told differently, or if there is a limitation then your feedback to her isn’t from ‘you’, it’s from whoever manages the supply budget and protocols.

      1. Rhiiiiiiannnnnnnon*

        I see what you’re saying. We have a generous budget that gives us a lot of flexibility. It allows us to easily accommodate the occasional special request. This is why in the beginning I had no problem with ordering a special mouse pad, or pens. But I’ve added up how much we’ve spent on her special requests this FY, and if everyone made as many requests as her then we could not accommodate it.

        That said, we’re a non-profit. And morally, it feels wrong to me to use np money to order a mousepad with kittens on it just because you’re feeling down. That’s the kind of self-indulgent pick-me-up purchase you make with your own money, which is how I got my own kitten mousepad.

      2. M. Albertine*

        On a similar note, do you have a per-person guideline? With amounts over that needing an additional level of approval? If not, maybe you can informally put that into place, so that 1) you’re not the sole approver (CYA, if you will) and 2) putting an additional level of red tape in place might curb her requests as well.

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      I also order office supplies. There’s no real budget but I’ve put some general limits on things, like if an employee wants a pen that costs 50 times as much as a regular pen, I’ll just say no to it. Things that get used up, like post-it notes or folders, I don’t mind ordering willy-nilly.

      In this case, she clearly doesn’t need it – her current mouse isn’t broken and there’s no real ergonomic/health reason for it, so you could just say, “That one is a little too pricy, how about [less expensive option]?” or just a plain, “I’m sorry, but it’s not within the budget.”

    5. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Given that it isn’t a medical accommodation (I assume!), use the “what would it be like of everyone did that” argument. Or cross charge them to her boss’s budget if that’s a thing in your company ;-)

  60. Moose*

    I remember there was a letter about LinkedIn a few weeks ago, so thought I’d share this fun story: I was messaging my friend on LinkedIn (not something I normally ever do, but I saw she had a new photo and messaged her to tell her I liked it), and one of LinkedIn’s suggested responses in the chat was “May I have your phone number?” Which…I could see asking for business purposes, but…what?! For a second I was like “is LinkedIn pivoting to a dating service??” Especially because the other suggested responses were “Haha” and “I know!” so it seemed to know it was a casual conversation.

    Predictive text freaks me out, man.

  61. Changed My Name For Today*

    My project manager (Vincenzo) has started being weird with me: meeting with me separately from my team to give me wildly impossible deadlines (a week to do a month’s work), complaining to my supervisor over my not having started a project before it was ready to be handed off to me, stuff like that.

    I’m pretty sure this has to do with my having asked the supervisor to intervene when a coworker punched me in the arm twice after I told him not to hit me. (three punches, two objections + a walkaway) I hadn’t gone to Vincenzo about this because a) he’s friends with the guy who hit me and b) a few months ago, he grabbed me and dragged me away from a colleague he didn’t want me talking to. I laid boundaries then, and it hasn’t happened since, but I didn’t feel like he was the person to go to on this one.

    None of my colleagues are experiencing this sort of physicality at work and I’m puzzled about why I’m experiencing these things.

    Now what? Just carry on being a high performer and hope it blows over? Do I have to have another conversation with the supervisor? I guess ramping the job search back up is a given.

    1. CatCat*

      I’d bring it up with the supervisor. It sounds like Vincenzo is deliberately undermining you as retaliation. Does the supervisor know about the time Vincenzo grabbed you?

      I’d say, “Supervisor, ever since I told you about Coworker punching me, Vincenzo has been [doing the things in your first paragraph]. I’m concerned about the way Vincenzo is treating me.”

      If the supervisor doesn’t know about the grabbing incident, I would inform them now. “Vincenzo also physically grabbed and pulled me a few months ago. I didn’t mention it to you because I thought I had resolved it with Vincenzo, but given the recent issues, I thought I better tell you now for more context.”

      1. Kathenus*

        Yes. Have a serious conversation with your supervisor (and possibly HR) about 1) multiple incidences where you have been physically hit or grabbed, and 2) possible retaliation for reporting this. Document these conversations in an email afterwards to those you met with so there’s a record.

        If your supervisor and HR do know that this occurred and nothing else has happened yet, that’s a huge flag about your organization and consider that when deciding about how you feel about working there long term. Good luck.

        1. valentine*

          Be sure to use the word retaliation.

          All these people are choosing to assault you for their own reasons. Even if they’re only doing it to you, it’s not your fault and you’re not attracting it or whatever BS energy thing. (Also, maybe they are bullying other people privately and no one else has reported it.)

    5. Changed My Name For Today*

      Thanks for the advice, all. I guess I’ve got an uncomfortable conversation coming up.

  62. Half-Caf Latte*

    I work in a high-rise. I’ve been here almost two years, and we’ve brought on several new people since. I asked about fire drills when I started, and was told – you stay put and they’ll announce overhead what to do.

    We had an actual (small) fire last week, and the overhead announcements were confusing, contradictory, and unable to be heard in the stairwells. I wasn’t about to stay put while I could smell smoke and try to guess whether I should follow the messages to stay put or go in the stairwell.

    We had a debrief today. The building manager (we lease several floors) sent out a copy of the 100+ page evac plan that they have on file with city hall. First I’ve ever seen it. Some colleagues were like- yeah I knew our evacuation rally point was (famous landmark) 6 blocks away, but I forgot in the moment. Others, some of whom have been here longer than me, didn’t even know where famous landmark was.

    Leadership was receptive to some concerns, but there was lots of “we should make sure that what we’re doing is the same for all floors, and communication should go through our corporate real estate office to the building owner.”

    1. Kathenus*

      The building owners/managers are at tremendous liability if there is not a clear, posted evacuation plan for a fire in a high rise. That said, having lived in multiple high rises, and in looking at some of the various tragedies in the world involving high rises, err on the side of evacuating via the stairwell. Better safe than sorry. But a six block away rally point is nuts.

      1. Half-Caf Latte*

        The rally point is actually coordinated through the city. Every building over 8 floors high has one, and they’re all several blocks away from the building. There’s 4 or five buildings near us which share our rally point. Apparently it’s to prevent people from congregating in the plaza and obstructing access for the FD, and places us out of harm’s way should the building collapse.

      2. Namast'ay in Bed*

        I absolutely agree that a lack of a clear plan is a tremendous liability, but the distance to the rally point isn’t that bad. I work in a high-rise in a busy downtown area and our rally point is at a greenway about six blocks away too. I thought it was ridiculous at first until we did a full drill last year – there aren’t many places to put a thousand+ people all at once.

        But we also have clear plans with multiple trained rally captains per floor, each with a safety vest and list of all people they need to account for once we reach the rally point, so take that for what you will.

      3. TechWorker*

        +1 – I get that not all stairwells are designed for a mass evacuation, and that theoretically you might be safer staying where you are, but people have died doing that. So I would leave, and try not to panic/encourage others not to panic, as I did so.

    2. LCL*

      Someone, hopefully management, should be reaching out to the fire department and asking for help to freshen up their evacuation plan. This will be a big time commitment at the very start.

  63. Nervous Accountant*

    On a more lighter note…

    I meowed at my boss.

    He meowed back and said “stop that right meow”

    The tiredness is real.

    2. Free Meerkats*

      The office cat just came in and meowed at me. He’s been lonely since his favorite human has been out for brain surgery for almost 2 months. I meowed back, he seemed satisfied and went back outside.

  64. Mimmy*

    Networking help requested!

    (I’ve written about this more specifically before, but I’m making it vague for simplicity and anonymity).

    I was invited to attend a Teapots Coordinators meeting & luncheon held by a particular division in my county on April 10. I am not a Teapot Coordinator but I think the person who invited me saw it as an opportunity for me to network.

    I’m not necessarily looking to be a Teapot Coordinator, but I just got certified through a Teapot Coordinator Certification training program, and I want to use the knowledge gain to advance my career. I really appreciate the invitation and I am going to attend. But…

    Hello Imposter Syndrome!!! I know I shouldn’t be nervous about feeling out of place. Any tips and script suggestions would be super helpful. I want to adequately explain 1) my background and current job, 2) that I have this certification and 3) some ideas of future career goals.

    1. irene adler*

      Maybe you’d feel less “imposter-y” if you made a point to take an interest in some of the other attendees and ask them about their backgrounds, credentials, career interests/goals, etc.

      You might find that their backgrounds, etc., are all over the map, so to speak. Of course, they will want to hear about your interests, background too. But you’ll have a clue how to relate your experiences based on how they framed their answers to your initial questions.

  65. Rebecca*

    My colleagues want to go on strike, and I don’t want to.

    For context, I live in France, where striking is the national sport. It’s often a first step rather than a last resort, and the relationship between managers and employees often seem adversarial on principle. It’s exhausting. I’d much rather be friendly and collaborative with my managers.

    I work in a very small school – only ten teachers, and two are part time. Back in October or November, we were asked, and agreed, to volunteer to take the students on a week long trip. We are being paid a little extra for this, but it was understood (by me, at least – I have a lot more experience than a lot of my colleagues, but I am new to this particular school) that this was a token of appreciation and not an actual salary. If they paid me my teaching rate for all the extra hours, nobody could afford this trip. I committed and thought no more of it.

    My colleagues have recently discovered that this token salary was quoted to us as gross salary, not net (…..duh) and are furious. There has been drama all over the place, including the big boss travelling in to our school to have special meetings with us, where he gets shouted down about our rights and unfair treatment. They want to ‘strike’ and refuse en masse to go on the trip – that 100 students have already all signed up for. My feeling is that I could have said no months ago, but I didn’t, I am going to honour my word and my commitment. I also spent a few months working hard to repair my relationship with my director, which got off to a rocky start, and now she is giving me some opportunities to do projects, take professional development, and teach classes that I really want. None of it is in writing yet though, and I need it to not fall through.

    My colleagues are annoyed with me, and it’s starting to come out in personal ways – yesterday two of them had a go at me, and said some pretty nasty stuff. I think they can see that I have not joined in with the adversarial culture. In a small campus, that’s realllllly uncomfortable and I am having a lot of anxiety about going to work, and doing things like taking my lunch to my classroom to avoid people.In Canada or America, not striking with your colleagues is a Big Deal, but here, man, it happens so often that I just don’t have the energy. That and I know it’s not going to work – we’re only ten people, but the company owns a lot of schools, and teachers are a dime a dozen. The market is flush right now. We’re not unionized.

    Any advice on how to walk this line?

    1. Reba*

      Is there one individual among those who want to strike that you have a good rapport with? I think you might have better luck having your perspective heard and understood in a one on one conversation, rather than you vs. a group.

      I think you can say basically what you have said here–you’ve committed to the students, you agreed to the terms, you have plans for future opportunities you want to preserve — with added “this is the decision that makes sense for me individually,” and “I of course am supportive of the rights of teachers to negotiate in the future solidarity etc”

  66. AwkwardTurtle*

    I have until Monday to decide on an offer that is below than what I’m currently making now. I’ve asked for a written offer (but I guess I should of phrased it as “need something in writing”) and they said they don’t make written offers until there is a verbal confirmation from me. That seemed out of the norm, doesn’t it? I’m definitely leaning towards declining it if it’s not up to my minimum desired salary. So that means getting back into the grind of more job applications.

    1. Alina*

      I had this exact situation recently. They ended up pulling the offer when I asked for something in writing saying I “did not fit well with their norms” but they were a startup and seemed dysfunctional/disorganized

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Don’t verbally accept something you’re not sure about just to avoid having to go back on the job hunt. I know it’s exhausting and sometimes demoralizing, but you could find yourself in an even worse predicament than you’re already in. Ask them again (politely) and say you really need something in writing so you can compare the offer to what you’re currently making now (and really, if they’re at the point of offering you a job, they should not have an issue sending you benefits information either).

  67. Newish Managerish*

    I hope I can get insight on this and a few other things. For context, my company makes chocolate teapots. Each team has a teapot designer and a lidmaker. Teapot designers report to team leaders and lidmakers report to the managing lidmaker AND team leaders (so they have 2 direct people to report to).

    I was promoted to team lead earlier this year. In addition to my regular duties, I provide performance feedback. The ultimate firing decision is left to my boss who in turn reports to the director.

    We have two employees that we want to let go but are having an extremely hard time doing so.

    The first employee has been difficult. They were OK during the probation period but then went downhill quickly.. We’ve had many conversations that progressed from casual coaching/check in sessions up to “If we don’t see improvement we will let you go”. The director will not let us let them go. We’ve been advised to document every single thing that occurs (and there is a LOT to document). This came up recently, that if we write the person up again we are just picking on them now and exposing ourselves ot legal liability. IANAL but from what I’ve read on this blog over the years, I am not sure there is a legal issue here?

    The other employee is a lidmaker on my team and their performance has been lukewarm at best. They usually do their job but also push back against basic job duties. When I gave them feedback, they tried to turn it around and give me feedback on my behavior and performance. They snapped at me to not speak to them, and on another occasion have openly in front of others said I am only in my position b/c I am friends with our boss. This person asked for a promotion and was denied. They went to HR and the CEO and apparently threatened to sue us. Once that happened we started documenting everything.

    Ideally, my manager and I are supposed to have authority and autonomy to fire or move these people, but our director has blocked us from doing anything about these employees aside from document document document.

    So I guess these are my questions:
    Is it legal harassment that we are documenting this person’s performance issues?
    Is it appropriate for a report to give their boss feedback when they are the ones giving the feedback?
    Is it normal in companies that a firing process takes so long? It is a private for-profit compabny

    1. Kathenus*

      To your questions.
      1) Unless you are singling out the person based on a protected category it’s generally not a legal issue. But, I’ve worked in a union environment where if you held one member to certain standards without holding all to those same standards they had grounds on arbitration and could make a case for being unfairly targeted which could result in a settlement in their favor. And even outside of those two scenarios if you are documenting one person for things that others do, it can just hurt morale. But in general documenting actual problems for a poor employee is exactly the right thing to do, just make sure that you are applying the rules fairly.
      2) No. This is generally deflection or defensiveness. Not saying that it’s never appropriate to give a manager feedback on their performance, but this is definitely not the appropriate time.
      3) Unfortunately it’s not uncommon for many organizations to throw up roadblock after roadblock for firing people. Keep doing what you’re doing, fairly and with open communication to the employee, that’s the right thing to do.

      Good luck.

      1. Newish Managerish*

        Thank you so much.

        Everyone is held to the same standard.
        This person has been rude to clients. Refused to turn off their phone despite multiple verbal and written warnings, and does bad work that we have to redo. We have disciplined others in the past for the same things but the difference is that they were inexperienced and did improved and/or were at least apologetic. This employee has not.

        Thank you for confirming that this is out of line. I have read about 360 feedback conversations here, but never faced one personally. I never did that with my manager.

        I am not sure why it is so difficult. I come from a temp/seasonal background where people were easily let go/removed.

        1. valentine*

          No/No/It shouldn’t be.

          Since you can’t fire them and there are no real consequences, you are just picking on them, but the trouble you may have is the opposite: Someone you’re allowed to let go sues because they were doing the same things the protected people were doing. Calculate the documentation time and ask the CEO if it’s worth it and what on Earth the point is. Because if they sue because you told them to turn off their phone, I don’t see what a document proving that does for you. (And that’s not illegal and suing over it is stupid and a judge is likely to throw out such a case.) And doesn’t he want them to improve? Doesn’t he want competent people in the roles and not to waste so much time on them the work suffers and the good people rightfully jump ship? Also: Ask if you can implement non-firing consequences like suspension without pay.

          You can’t work like this. Leaving is best.

  68. Brother at the Seven Sisters*

    My friend’s degree outs him as trans. What can he do?
    Details: I went to a pretty well known women’s college, and one of my classmates transitioned while we were there. He’s now exclusively read as a guy…except when someone sees his resume. His education is at the bottom of his resume and not everyone recognizes the name of our school, so it doesn’t always get noticed or cause a problem, but it has led to some awkward conversations that he really doesn’t want to have. (“Oh, I didn’t know [school] had gone coed!” “Is this a different [school] from the one I know?”) Is there anything he can do to avoid these situations? Would it be okay to list his degree without the name of our school? Or are there any good ways to deflect without lying or outing himself?

    1. Arielle*

      That is so tough! What about calling the alumni or career office at the school and asking what other people have done? Assuming he went to, say, Smith and not some kind of finishing school for Southern belles, I guarantee he is not the first alum to have had this problem.

    2. INeedANap*

      I don’t think he could possibly list the degree without the same of the school. It would just look too unusual and draw attention to the lack of it, as though he was hiding something.

      I am honestly not sure there is a way to avoid this. I’ve been trying to think of scripts for deflecting and I just am coming up empty. One thing I would suggest is asking this question over at Captain Awkward; she has such great scripts and I feel like if anyone could come up with something, she could

      1. London Engineer*

        If he is interested in advice columns then Dear Prudence might also be an option. I’m a bit iffy on it sometimes and Daniel’s workplace advice isn’t always realistic but he does have the direct experience…
        I don’t think there is a way out of listing the uni name unfortunately

    3. Another 7 Sisters Alum*

      I mean… there isn’t much he can do.
      I have a friend who is trans but he is pretty open about who he is and his identity etc.
      Frankly this is what happens if you transition at a women’s college – you’re stuck with explaining why you were there.
      Perhaps if your friend considers a Master’s degree they can leave their school off entirely. (Also it’s definitely less anonymous but the 7 sister’s career group on facebook and the school specific ones (all non-college run) probably have really solid concrete advice if either of you are willing to go that route.

    4. Dealtwiththis*

      I met someone once who was one of 9 men to attend a women’s college. They had provided scholarships for men that were willing to be actors in the school plays. Could he create some sort of story line along these lines…?

      1. Dealtwiththis*

        Edited to add, not advocating a full out lie, but maybe vaguely referencing that there were a few men that attended the college for various reasons?

    5. Holly*

      I don’t think it has to be that complicated (even though of course this isn’t ideal!!) if someone says “Oh, I didn’t know the school had gone coed,” the answer is yes, he indeed went there when he was a man! He was a man and attended that school. He can then just move forward in changing in the conversation. “Yes, it was a great experience. Where did you go to college?”

      1. valentine*

        he indeed went there when he was a man
        Yes; he has always been male.

        If he hasn’t already, can he update his name with the school so verifying the degree isn’t a problem and he doesn’t have to mention his deadname?

        I hope Brother at the Seven Sisters is the title of his autobiography.

    6. Jess*

      “It has a small male population now. I really appreciated X about the school, which prepared me for Y qualification in this job…”

      That said, hiding takes energy. So if he feels confident and safe enough to say, “I transitioned while I was there,” and change the subject, that’s likely going to be the best option in the long run.

      1. Holly*

        Even just saying “yes, it has a small male population” is good enough – it’s accurate – and you can change the subject after.

    7. Kuododi*

      The school where I got my MMFT has always been female for their undergraduate degrees. Their Masters programs however have been coed since, I believe the mid 80’s. Fraid that’s the best I can do for information. Best regards to you and your friend. I wish I had more to offer.

    8. Dr. Anonymous*

      “There aren’t a whole lot of men there. (Comment about some cool thing he did in college.) (Comment about the next thing on his resume.)” and moving on like it’s no big deal. Act like people are just making conversation and not starting a Grand Inquisition into gender issues in higher education. Even if they are.

  69. wafflesfriendswork*

    I don’t know if there is any actual advice, but I’m in a pickle. My fiance just finished grad school and is on the job hunt. My career in our current city (NYC) has been pretty stagnant, so I told him that I was willing to relocate wherever he gets a job, and the idea of a change of scenery has appealed to both of us. He’s currently interviewing for a position in DC that would be amazing for him, it’s exactly the kind of thing he’s looking for, and so far he’s felt really good about his interviews. Simultaneously, my sister-in-law has forwarded my resume to her supervisor, who seems to be impressed and told her that she would love to find a place for me in the company! This would be huge for my career (I had pretty much resigned myself to only being content, being typically a much more “work to live” person than “live to work”) but now I’m concerned that if my fiance *does* get a job offer in DC I’ll have to miss out on a great career move. If he gets the job I’ll definitely move, because my partner and the family we hope to start are at the top of my list right now, but a part of me is definitely having a “why now??” moment. Why couldn’t this have happened while he was still in grad school??

    1. yup*

      So, this will work out… I know it is stressful and doesn’t feel that way right now, but it will.

      And just because this job is amazing for your fiance doesn’t mean it’s the only one that will be amazing for him. It sounds like your fiance wasn’t working while in school. If that is correct, I would actually prioritize your career move over his. You probably are already well into a trajectory with momentum that will limit your options more so than his, especially if he wasn’t working for long before school or is changing careers.

      Figure out how happy/ resentful you would be with each of the scenarios and then play out the ones that haven’t even happened yet!

      1. valentine*

        The foundation of your decision has changed. (But do you really want to share an employer with your SIL?) He is your priority, but whose career is the priority? Can you do long-distance for a while and see what happens? You don’t want to lose out on this job, only for him to leave his soon thereafter or what have you. Is he willing to stay for your job and/or are you his priority?

    2. Holly*

      This is more a discussion that needs to happen OPENLY between you two. There’s no law that you have to sacrifice your job for family but he doesn’t. It has to be a mutual decision. If your statement that you would relocate anywhere has changed, you need to talk about that.

    3. SherBert*

      Agree with other commenters but also know that DC has a HUGE job market. I don’t know your area of expertise but there are tons of jobs in the area. Metro DC also cover northern Virginia and parts of Maryland. So just to say, there might be a great opt for you here too!

  70. SadMidwesterner*

    My manager just asked me to print something for her that I’ve forwarded to her twice this week, that she had originally sent to me in the first place (both times she denied that she ever had the document). I know she asked me to print it because she again couldn’t find the document, so now I’m doing admin work for her again despite the fact that she never, ever asks the other person in our department (a man) to do any of that. For some reason, this little thing has become the last straw for me- I am sitting here so angry that I can’t do my work, and this is like the 8th worst thing she’s done this week. I’m so sick of this. I don’t even need advice, I think I just need to rant.

    1. Free Meerkats*

      Print two copies. That way when she comes back and asks again you can whip it out, hand it to her, and say, “I knew you were going to lose it again.”

      1. valentine*

        I don’t suppose there’s a printer in her office you can send it to.

        Ask if you can save it to her desktop or if there’s a better way to make sure she holds on to it.

        If there’s an admin, forward the request to them.
        Be busy and ask your male colleague to do it.

  71. Zephy*

    If any of you have seen the Tumblr posts about ” ___ gothic” – I had a thought this morning that further made me think about that meme (if it’s a meme?). Add your own!

    Office Gothic:

    – I have lost count of how many times my coworker has left and come back in this morning. I’m no longer sure the numbers match.
    – The process I remember has changed but no one seems to have noticed.
    – Your name is not in my spreadsheet.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      – To access the remote server, you need to access the network. To access the network, you log in from the remote server.

    3. Slovenly Braid Cultist*

      There’s cake in the kitchen. There are no birthdays this month. I don’t know a Jane.

      It’s 8 am. All the doors are locked. All the lights are off. I am the first to arrive. There is a hot pot of coffee waiting.

      The report I ran yesterday is $7.08 off from the report I just ran. There were no data changes.

      There was a woman at the empty desk across from me, when I came back from vacation. No one has introduced her. On her last day she hugs me and thanks me for all the good times. I do not know her name.

  72. NapkinThief*

    Looking for suggestions on how to set up a study schedule/plan for the GRE!

    I am trying to completely shift careers (been working post undergrad in NOT my desired career out of necessity for food and shelter for the last 5 years, and I’m so done) and grad school is a big part of that plan. BUT I also have (currently untreated) ADHD & a full time customer-facing position with a variable schedule & a volunteer/religious commitment that takes up 3-4 of my evenings each week. So I’m a leetle overwhelmed and would love to hear from those who have prepared for the GRE while juggling a weird/tight schedule – and especially any other executive function-issue types!

    Any tips?

    1. Justin*

      I did a lot of my studying on my commute, but that won’t work if you drive.

      The point though is that I did a little bit every day over a long enough period to feel comfortable.

      1. NapkinThief*

        My husband usually drops me off (we share a car) and reading in the car is quite nauseating for me – but I could probably squeeze in some time before starting my shifts most days! thanks!

    2. alphabet soup*

      I can’t give advice for any executive functioning issues, but my general GRE advice is: take a Kaplan prep course if you can afford it. The GRE is not about how smart you are– it tests your ability to take a test and know what tricks/strategies the test authors use to make you choose the wrong answer. The Kaplan prep course teaches you all of those tricks. They have an online version with lots of videos and practice quizzes that you can complete at your own pace, so that can help if you’ve got a busy full-time schedule.

      I took another prep class offered by my university, and it did *not* prepare me at all. I would have been sunk without the Kaplan prep course. (I know I sound like a commercial for Kaplan, but I’m not. I just hate the GRE with a fiery passion and hate that it gives the impression that it’s a test of your knowledge when it’s really not.)

      1. NapkinThief*

        I appreciate this – I had heard of Kaplan but wasn’t sure if it was worth it. Will definitely look into it! Thanks!

    3. Alina*

      I’d recommend looking into Magoosh. It’s an online program that covers almost everything you need to study. I also think you can do flashcards/some problems on your commute, and then dedicate some longer chunks on the weekend. I agree with doing a little bit each day. When were you thinking of taking the exam?

      1. NapkinThief*

        Ooh, this looks good, thank you! I haven’t decided on a date yet. I just took a practice test just as a diagnostic of sorts and was (probably unreasonably) surprised at how tough it was, so I figure I have a ways to go before I feel comfortable setting a date.

    4. Reba*

      I think using a prep book or online course, beyond being essential to understanding the test, would also help you because the content is already in chunks, so you’ll have hopefully manageable bits and defined progress.

      Did you ever test for extensions or other alternative testing arrangement when you were in school? “Untreated ADHD” does not suggest that you have the money or spoons to get the letters and such you need for such an accommodation for the test itself (there is an expiration date for those) … but just to make sure you know that is a possibility.

      Also, if you ever want to complain about how the GRE is a SCAM I am here for that!

      Good luck!

      1. NapkinThief*

        (accidentally posted at the bottom, re-posting here) Thank you, Reba! I’ve never had any special accommodations before – didn’t get diagnosed until just before my last year of undergrad – but historically I’ve been a really good test taker. I think the high pressure, quiet environment, time-sensitive nature of most big exams kicks my hyperfocus into gear.

    5. Raincloud*

      Go you for working to improve your career! I was balancing a full time job and a volunteer commitment that was basically a second full time job while studying for the GRE. A few pieces of advice:
      Break it up into little bits – make flashcards to study vocab and just do 10-15 minutes of them where you can squeeze them in, or just do one type of math problem (i.e. percentages) if you’ve got a bit more time. On the other hand, you definitely do need to take some full, timed practice tests. I don’t know what your weekend schedule looks like, but you should carve out a few hours to do those so that you feel fully comfortable with the test and are not overwhelmed on test day.
      Say no to things if you have – Scoring well on the GRE will open so many doors for you, if you have to sacrifice a few hours of volunteering or dinner with your friends or whatever, so be it. I’d rather have those extra opportunities.
      Don’t take the GRE until you’re truly ready – I was so burned out after six months of juggling all three that I said screw it, I’ll just take it and see what happens. I truly I wish I had studied a bit more and felt really comfortable and happy with where I was practice testing. GRE studying is for the long haul (I think!).

    6. Kuododi*

      I am also a huge fan of test prep courses. They not only help with material but also the logic behind the test writers process.(IOW- how to deal with the thought process of taking test, decisions about how to get to the correct answer etc.)

      I also want to tell you to make sure to answer your questions using only the data given. No “if the scenario really means X than it would be Y for the answer type response.”. I and many others were tripped up in that area bc we kept over thinking the data, mentally plugging in extra bits and pieces to our answers. Only use stuff in black and white to reach your conclusion.

      Good luck!!! Let us know how it turned out!!!

  73. BottleBlonde*

    Do any of you travel solo for leisure, and if so, have suggestions for talking about it at work without your coworkers thinking you’re a weirdo? I was telling a coworker about a trip I’m planning for this spring where I’ll be hiking in some national parks alone, and when she asked who I was going with, I said, “just me!” in a cheery voice. She seemed totally flabbergasted that I’d even consider that and asked a couple of skeptical (and kind of rude) questions before changing the subject. I really don’t care what others think of my life decisions in a social context, but I do care about my reputation at work. Is this more a matter of who you happen to work with than anything else?

    1. Asenath*

      Oh, I’ve been hearing comments about travelling alone since I was a teenager. Some people will be eager to tell you how terribly dangerous it is or how they’d never dream of doing something like that, but that’s just conversation, and it never occurred to me that it would affect my reputation at work. I don’t think it has – it’s just people discussing travel. I was curious enough after the last one to ask why the OP wouldn’t travel alone (well, I softened my question a bit), and was interested to hear that in her case, it was because she wanted the companionship of a fellow-traveler with whom she could share, in real time, her reaction to her new experiences. That wasn’t what I expected – a lot of people say they’d be scared to travel alone, even to a major city in my country, never mind abroad! And because it was different, I found it an interesting viewpoint, although not one I shared. And that’s how I respond to people who are flabbergasted at the idea of solo travel – it’s interesting that people have different ideas on that.

      My last solo trip, the first in decades and on which I blew a fair bit of accumulated leave etc, the one which was so dangerous? Was it to a war zone, or somewhere with an active volcano or something? No, it was to Australia and New Zealand (I’m in Canada) and I loved every minute. I didn’t even get eaten by a crock or bitten by a spider or snake!

      1. Pebbles*

        Good for you! My first big solo trip was backpacking across Europe for 3+ weeks when I was a 20-yr-old single female, and that had my parents concerned! I learned how to play gin rummy from a young Yugoslavian couple that knew very little English on a train to Prague, and spent an overnight from Sicily to Venice in a crowded train compartment with some Italian army guys and 2 women from Nigeria. I saw so many advantages to traveling solo on that trip!

        1. Asenath*

          My first trip was semi-solo – I went alone, but it was part of a student exchange, so when I got to my destination, I did have a contact and summer job and housing. I was about 17 and at university. I’d applied for positions in several countries, and was offered a place in a country not on my initial list – what was then called Czechoslovakia, in what is now Slovakia. My parents didn’t try to stop me – but I think my mother nearly had a heart attack when she heard my news. Her first response was “Isn’t that behind the Iron Curtain?” (which dates me). I had a marvelous time, with only a few snags which I solved before my family found out about them and worried. Aside from a visa problem, I had said on my application that I’d taken German, which I had, but only a semester or two so I knew very little German. The organizers assumed that I was fairly fluent, as so many Europeans are in second (and third) languages.

          I also visited Budapest, East Berlin and parts of Denmark before I had to return home.

      2. BottleBlonde*

        Thanks for sharing your perspective! I definitely could have asked her more questions in the moment. It seemed like the idea had just never even occurred to her – which, at one point, it had never occurred to me either! I suppose you’re right and I’m probably overthinking the reputation thing – I’ve been here for a couple of years and people know me pretty well, so hopefully they’ll just think of it as another one of my slightly uncommon hobbies.

      3. BottleBlonde*

        Oh and I would LOVE to go to Australia and New Zealand! They are on my dream travel list!

        1. Asenath*

          I hadn’t been able to travel much (certainly not personal travel) for a long time, and one cold stormy February the idea of Australia (NZ got added later) floated into my mind yet again. And for some reason, this time I thought “Is it still impossible?” instead of “I can’t possibly swing that kind of trip”. I had some savings, lots of leave time and fewer responsibilities at home than in the past. So I started googling prices and collecting ideas. Six months later, there I was, on the other side of the world, following my personal itinerary with its combination of some short day trips and tours and days for just wandering around a new town or city. I highly recommend those countries as destinations – there’s so much to see and do (and Australia in particular is so big!) that you really can’t do everything, so you need to pick and choose what bits attract you the most. I saw lots and lots of animals, plants, scenery, and of course some beaches, which was what made up my list of things to see. And some museums and art galleries.

    2. Pebbles*

      Before I was married I did this all the time and my go-to response was always “I meet so many interesting people that way because I’m not already talking with someone else and am more approachable.” I would sometimes add that I’ve always wanted to go to [country] and didn’t know anyone that wanted to go with or find someone that was available. Eventually people got used to the idea of me going by myself.

      Side note: what kind of rude questions are you getting?

      1. BottleBlonde*

        Thanks, I like your go-to response! I’ve just been telling my family and friends, “It’s on the bucket list!” because I’ve always wanted to take a trip by myself in my 20s (I’ve done days before/after longer trips alone, and long weekends, but this is my first “real” trip alone. And if I enjoy it, I hope to do more!).

        Some of her questions were pretty standard, like “Isn’t that scary? Won’t it be lonely?” but the one that kind of threw me off was “aren’t you going to feel so embarrassed every time someone realizes you’re there alone?” I just responded that I don’t think it’s embarrassing to do things alone…I guess reflecting back on it, I mostly feel bad for her that she feels that way!

        1. yup*

          “Sure it is scary and it may be lonely at times, but I hope to come back a more empowered person. I am excited at the prospect of learning how to be more independent, improving my awareness about my surroundings and getting more self confidence along the way. Besides, bad things can happen anywhere, and I don’t want fear to prevent me from living a full life.”

          Okay, that’s probably not something I could have come up with on the spot.

          And the “embarrassed” question is just bizarre… I would have needed clarification, but that’s also another hindsight thing, I bet!

        2. Pebbles*

          I like your bucket list response, because OF COURSE you’d need to go! The standard questions you’re getting I got too and answered honestly: scary – “Not really. I wouldn’t go if I didn’t think I’d be safe.” lonely – “Maybe, but then I’ll meet people and I won’t be lonely. Problem solved!”

          The embarrassed question is really rude IMO. Here at home do you never go out to eat alone because you’ll be embarrassed? Do you always have to have someone with you at all times here at home? It’s the same thing when you travel. Setting aside the rudeness of the question, I would feel bad for your coworker too, because her question also reads kinda needy to me.

          1. Asenath*

            The “embarrassed” question reminded me of the sort of response I got when I started going to movies on my own when none of my friends wanted to see the same movie. I think some people think that doing some things alone is embarrassing because they see it as a statement that you are unable to find someone to do these things with. Which, in fact, happened to be true in my movie example, but it doesn’t bother me. It does bother some people. Different people have different ideas on these things.

            1. BottleBlonde*

              That’s a good point. Sometimes doing things alone is my first choice, but sometimes I end up doing something alone because my friends aren’t available/interested. I guess I don’t feel bad because everyone has social plans fall through for those reasons, I just happen to sometimes go through with the activity anyway rather than changing my plans or staying home. However, I know that everyone wouldn’t be comfortable with this!

          2. BottleBlonde*

            Yeah I was kind of taken aback by the comment because I really wouldn’t characterize her as a rude person in general, but the question did feel that way to me. I do feel bad for her, because I already do a lot of activities alone (museums, local hikes, movies) and I love spending time on my own.

            I’m also an outlier in my department – most of the people I work with got married super young (like in college, or right after graduating) so as a 25-year-old Old Maid, I may just have had more opportunities to get used to doing things on my own than this coworker (and my others). Not that couples can’t enjoy doing things independently of course.

        3. qvaken*

          I think you’re on the money in feeling bad for her. The “embarrassed” comment definitely highlights that her reaction to your travel plans are about her, not you.

          In the past I’ve copped a colleague thinking my solo birthday plans were “s**t”, and a very gossipy colleague suddenly becoming very interested in my relationship with my family and asking me lots of questions about it in front of our other colleagues once they detected that I didn’t have much to do with them. However, I’ve usually found that these attitudes are limited to one or a few people rather than everyone in the workplace, and they never affected my managers’ opinions of me. And if they had, it would have sucked for me but it still would have been a problem with the workplace, not with me.

          1. BottleBlonde*

            Thanks for sharing! I feel a lot better now that my coworker’s opinion is probably isolated, but if it turns out not to be, I appreciate your perspective that it will still not be a problem with me but rather a problem with the workplace.

    3. Kathenus*

      Sounds like you’re handling it just fine. You don’t need to explain or justify it to Rude Rita. Just use the return the awkward to sender technique and give her a blank stare, or say something like ‘wow, that’s judgmental’ or whatever might be appropriate.

      I’ve traveled solo a bunch of times including internationally. Some people think it’s great, some are judgmental. Not my problem to worry about the latter.

    4. ContemporaryIssued*

      I do solo travel for leisure annually.

      I would just highlight the positive aspects of your trips to people and ignore the comments.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      I’ve traveled solo my whole life — no one gives it a second thought. I think your coworker is odd.

    6. JessicaTate*

      I think your insights shine a giant spotlight on the fact that she’s projecting her insecurities/judgements onto you – mainly the belief that people who go out alone should be ashamed – are spot-on as to why this is happening. I don’t think you need to worry that this will give you a negative reputation at work, other than people who share that kind of judgement (and are unhinged). And I think, for some co-workers, it would actually highlight your self-assuredness, competence, and independence. I’d think more highly of you.

      I love your bucket list response. I would also share all of the benefits of traveling alone. My favorite benefit is that I get do and see and experience exactly what I want at all times. There’s no negotiating, no deciding, no compromising. The adventure is completely mine to enjoy. And yes, I think you definitely end up interacting more with the locals. It’s possible in a couple, if you’re both up for it. But I found I was much more likely to have interesting conversations with strangers when I’ve been solo than when I’ve been with my Other Half. And some of those are the MOST memorable moments of those trips.

      ENJOY!!!

      1. BottleBlonde*

        Thank you! This makes me feel a lot better. I definitely could share some of the benefits of traveling alone if it comes up again. I do think the concept was just completely new to my one coworker and could be new to others as well. And your second paragraph made me even more excited for my trip!

    7. periwinkle*

      I vacation on my own. So does my husband. “Going off and doing something just for ourselves has been the secret to a happy marriage!” (and it is)

      1. BottleBlonde*

        That is awesome! I honestly think my parents should have done this more. They both love travel but have totally different travel styles.

    8. ChachkisGalore*

      I wouldn’t be too concerned about your reputation based on one person’s reaction. I travel solo quite often and have never had anyone react negatively or judgementally. Once or twice I’ve had someone respond with surprise or maybe with an “oh wow, I wish I were that daring” or “oh wow, I’d probably get bored” (but said in an almost admiringly way, rather than as a dig). Of course that’s just my experience.

      Really, I would think of this as a weird hangup on that co-worker’s part, rather than a reflection of oddity on your part. At least until or unless you get any other similar reactions.

      1. BottleBlonde*

        Thanks for sharing your experience! I feel a lot better that it was probably an isolated reaction that just happened to be the first one I heard. I’ll proceed as such unless I experience anything similar from others.

    9. Fortitude Jones*

      I also travel solo for leisure. One year, I went to Vegas for the Burlesque Hall of Fame Weekender event, and some of my coworkers asked where I was going, so I told them. Most of them thought it was very cool, especially since I was taking some of the performance classes offered (hence it being a perfect solo trip), but I did get one or two side-eyes, lol. It didn’t phase me – I had a blast, and I’m totally planning to do it again next year.

      Have fun on your hiking trip! Don’t let other people’s insecurity (because that’s what it is) become your hang up. Traveling solo is fun – you don’t have to worry about running your itinerary by someone else and risking them not wanting to do what you want to do, you get to do things at your own pace, and you meet some very interesting people along the way that can become friends later.

      1. BottleBlonde*

        Thank you! I’m definitely looking forward to my trip for the reasons you described. I feel a lot better and am definitely not going to let people’s comments ruin my fun!

  74. Lipstick Queen*

    In the last week or so, one of my co-workers has been coming into work in clothes with rips in them (not intentional, think under the arm on a shirt or on the seam of the waist of a dress that probably are caused from the clothes being worn out or not quite fitting right). Normally, I wouldn’t say anything because I’m assuming she’s aware of them, but we work in a really front facing role, and I feel like if I’m noticing, our clients are most likely noticing because several of the rips have been really noticeable. I don’t want her to get in trouble because our grand-boss is known for blowing up about things to do with personal appearance. Any advice on how I can help her? Or should I just stay out of it?

    1. xarcady*

      If the rip is clearly going to be noticed by a customer, I’d treat it as a one-off, wardrobe emergency situation.

      “Oh, gosh, Cindy, before you go out on the desk, you’ve got a small tear in your shirt. Here, I’ve got some safety pins/needle and thread you can use to close it up before it gets worse or a customer sees it.” And let her know that you have more in case she needs them again.

    2. Laika*

      Ugh, this is tough. I usually operate by the rule of thumb that if it’s not a quick fix (think less than 5 minutes – spinach in your teeth, something untucked) then it’s often not worth telling someone since it’s just kind of stressful? But this sounds like a somewhat different situation. I think xarcady’s advice is fine for a one-off, but if you’re repeating that more than once a week, it might be really obvious that you’ve noticed all the rips & tears.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Try to engage ‘casually’ in conversation (do you usually chat casually to her?) and if there’s anything she’s worried about etc. Clearly something has changed last week. Could be anything from problems with laundry facilities, landlords/living situation, financial crisis, a cry for help hoping someone notices?

  75. Way to the Dawn*

    I am applying to jobs again with less than a year turn around due to a poor fit in my current position. I had been previously applying to a hospital where they take you take one of those ‘personality/culture fit’ quizzes. I applied to a couple of positions but never got to a phone interview. I want to apply to more of those positions there but I am wondering if I am not even being considered due to the questionnaire results. Has anyone ever had this issue? Is there a way to find out why I am not being considered without being obnoxious? I would love to talk to a recruiter from the hospital about it but I don’t know how that would look. It would be great to know if I am just not a fit for there and move on!

    2. Dr. Anonymous*

      Yes, they are used to screen. If sucks and I sympathize. We’re finally getting our organization to quit using them as we were getting 30% of applicants screened out for a position that has constant vacancies, including people who have been personally recommended. They were blocking repeat applications from that person for 18 months, too. I don’t know what has been done to asses the validity of such tests.

  76. xarcady*

    Our company has a new CEO. We had a big meeting and were promised great changes ahead.

    It’s been three months. All that has changed is that efforts are being taken to make the campus and the interiors of the buildings look “more professional.”

    What this means: We can no longer leave dishes in the kitchen sinks or the dish drainer. We can no longer have coffee stirrers, sweetener packets or creamer out on the kitchen counters. We are no longer allowed to put up signs about upcoming office events–email reminders only.

    And . . . all the toilet paper holders, paper towel holders, and soap dispensers were removed and replaced with new ones. New, shiny, non-functional ones. The paper towel holders either dispense 10 towels at a time or force you to stick your hand up through the opening to pull one out. The soap dispensers either give you nothing or the smallest iota of soap, so you have to press the button several times to get enough to wash your hands.

    And then there’s the toilet paper. Okay, the new toilet paper is a little softer, so I suppose that’s an improvement? But the perforations between the sheets are so fragile, that pulling the paper off the roll leaves you with one square of paper in your hand. So you have to find the end of the roll inside the covered holder, and that means endlessly spinning the roll around until you can find an end, then very, very carefully pulling out the amount you need before severing the connection. Seriously, sound don’t really carry from the bathrooms, but the noise of the toilet paper rolls does. Walk by any bathroom and you can hear the rollers spinning and spinning and spinning as colleagues deal with TP holders that were designed by someone who preferred form over function.

    No one has said anything, until a few days ago in the lunch room, someone at my table mentioned the toilet paper. O.M.G. The entire table had stories to tell of being stuck in the bathroom, spending minutes trying to deal with the toilet paper holders. Various theories were put forth–the incredibily awkward position the holders are in, requiring extreme flexibility skills to access the paper at all, the fragile nature of the paper/perforations, the need to use twice as much as the old paper, the theory that the placement of the holders was designed to make us use less paper. People sitting at other tables joined in–this never happens, people. Never.

    Everyone is upset to some degree that perfectly good items that functioned well have been trashed and replaced with items that, granted, look sleek and we suppose “professional,” but that Do Not Work. Items that by their very function, need to work and to work well and easily.

    I haven’t seen this much unity among my colleagues since they suggested doing away with the annual summer picnic. At last, we have a common goal–replacing the toilet paper holders!

    1. JeanB in NC*

      We also had a perfectly good toilet paper holder that got replaced by the vendor to “upgrade” it. All it’s done is make it harder to get the toilet paper. Plus the toilet paper and paper towels are actually narrower than the old ones – seems to me it was just to save money.

      1. valentine*

        you have to find the end of the roll inside the covered holder, and that means endlessly spinning the roll around until you can find an end, then very, very carefully pulling out the amount you need before severing the connection
        I hate these! Especially in the wheelchair stall.

        This is a cartoon-level of evil. Too bad it’s not a plot to create solidarity.

    2. willow*

      Oh, I feel your pain on the toilet paper dispenser issue. I’m a grown-a$$ woman, I should not have to fight for my toilet paper.

    3. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Is your facility “outward” facing (clients, students, etc)? I would be a bit concerned about the triumph of form over content and what that might mean for the direction of the company in future…

  77. angrywithnumbers*

    Just venting but I found out that some one that sits by our lactation room , which I am the only person using right now, is tracking the amount of time I spend pumping. This person is in an other department and our jobs have nothing to do with each other. The only thing I have to do with her is the fact that I walk by her desk on my way to the lactation room. Someone else told me when she brought up the amount of time to them so I have no proof or plans to do anything about it but I think it’s so weird that she cares that much. She also thinks it’s weird I’ve been doing it “so long” but my daughter is still under a year old. I feel weird every time I walk over there now (3 times a day) especially when she looks up as I walk by.

    2. Murphy*

      That is super weird…I’m not sure what I would do about it if I were in your place but that would make me pretty uncomfortable.

    3. 123456789101112 do do do*

      Ewww, this is awful! I know that I tried to keep pumping on the down-low as much as possible, so somebody knowing and TIMING my pumping would have been the ultimate in mortification. Is this harassment? Pumping is a protected activity, and she’s discouraging the natural feeding of your child.

      1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

        I don’t know if you could legally call it harassment, but it would definitely be easy to frame it that way in a complaint: it’s based on gender, it’s based on medical need.

        It’s also deeply, deeply creepy to be so invested in what someone does with her breasts–if you look at it from that angle, there’s kind of a sexual component too.

    5. xarcady*

      For me, what puts this over the top is that she is telling other people about your pumping, the schedule and how long you pump for. This could easily get distorted and make you look bad if the wrong person hears about it. And I think that by mentioning the amount of time you pump to others in the office, she is trying to make you look bad–like you are slacking off work or something.

      I’d go to my boss and ask them if they could do anything to stop her from talking about your pumping. I’m not sure she can be asked to stop noticing you going to the room, but there is no business-related reason for her to mention that you use the room or how much time you spend there.

      You say you don’t have proof, but you do have the name of the person who told you about this. And I suspect, if Timer Lady has told one person, she has told several.

    6. Natalie*

      Ew, weird. I completely think this is worth mentioning to your boss, at least as a head’s up so they can talk to the other manager if needed.

      And sing some psych up music to yourself on your way to the lactation room.

    7. Glomarization, Esq.*

      she looks up as I walk by

      How would you feel about making eye contact with her and saying “hello” when she looks up at you? That might go some distance toward putting her on notice that you’re aware of how strangely she’s behaving.

      1. E*

        Returning the awkward to her, I’d be tempted to snarkily say “10:30 to 10:45, make sure you’ve got that written on your tracker” as I left the room.

    8. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      If you didn’t want to be snarky, you could still approach her directly and say you’ve heard a rumor that she’s been tracking your time in the lactation room and passing that information on to others and you want to verify if it is true. Tone is key so you say it with “compassion” and warmth in your voice and not hostility. Then when she sputters “no, of course not,” then you give her the out of, “Right, of course not, because that would be invasive and creepy. I just thought you would want to know you are a target of gossip.” There is an off chance that the coworker you heard it from is the one noticing how long you are away from your desk…

      1. blackcat*

        +1
        I like this approach. Particularly if other people will overhear. I would also give your boss a heads up right after you do this.
        “I heard an odd rumor that Lucinda was tracking my pumping time. She assured me that’s not the case. I found the rumor unsettling so I wanted to let you know. I think I’ve handled it for now.”

    9. Close Bracket*

      Eye contact, maniacal grin. Work up to a wink. Finger guns, if you are feeling particularly feisty.

  78. Mimmy*

    Another post, sorry!

    When I was doing an advanced certificate program a few years ago, I of course had to do term papers. Ever since I graduated, I have been itching to expand on some of these papers or even writing others. I have so many ideas in my head but no outlet. It would independent study with no accountability for a class or for an employer. It’d be purely for intellectual curiosity. But I feel like this is weird. There is a particular graduate degree I’ve been eyeing for a few years and it would certainly serve as an outlet for many of my ideas. However, but I’m waiting for the right time, i.e. getting an entry-level job related to this degree.

    Another other “closet” writers out there?

    1. Reba*

      Are there blogs or websites used by people in the field of study? Why not revise one of the term papers and see about getting it disseminated that way?

  79. JustaTech*

    A funny thing at work this week:
    My coworker (let’s call her Labbie) was running a brand new process this week where a lot of stuff was happening on the fly. This isn’t usually how we do stuff, usually we spend a lot of time planning and working out all the potential kinks, but this was a totally new process so we couldn’t do that.

    We’re almost done when suddenly Labbie notices that all our numbers are really, really low. Like, might not be able to get the data we need low. So I stop what I’m doing and we brainstorm a bit about how to get at least some of the data we need. And Labbie’s off again at speed, and then there’s another issue, and another. So I stop again and check her math and ask her to explain a calculation, at which point we realize she made a big (but easy to do) mistake.

    Labbie is getting super flustered so I said “Slow down, work with me, hear what I’m telling you”.
    Or, in shorter words “Stop! Collaborate and Listen!”

    And that’s the story of how I ended up quoting Vanilla Ice in the lab.

    2. 123456789101112 do do do*

      Love it! Your assignment for next week: seamlessly work “Stop! Hammer time” into the conversation.

      1. JustaTech*

        Oh, we’re having construction in our building right now, so that won’t even be hard!

  80. Leslie Knope*

    Twentysomething here who needs advice on dealing with an older coworker who’s *technically* my subordinate.

    My boss is the Director of Teapot Design and I became the Assistant Director last fall after two of my coworkers left (for unrelated reasons). They had been in the Teapot Design department for 4 and 7 years; this is my 3rd year full-time but I worked part-time in this department for 5 years previously. Our department got shuffled around and someone who had been in the Teapot Oversight department for 7 years ended up moving to our department and filling a new role that is a mish-mash of my two former coworkers’ positions. She is 30 years older than me, but seemed willing to learn and invested in the success of our department.

    8 months later, the “shiny new job” effect seems to have worn off and I’m struggling with working with her. Although she seemed fine with taking direction from me at the start, she’s now acting a lot more like we’re on the same level, or that she knows better than I do. I’ve also noticed that she seems to be making more mistakes, letting things slip through the cracks, and still asking me questions or relying on me for things I’ve already spent a lot of time training her on.

    My boss has communicated to me that she “is just as much your employee as she is mine,” so it’s clear to me where I stand in the hierarchy. But I’m at a loss for the best way to stand my ground when I make decisions that she questions or doesn’t like, or how to correct her when she makes mistakes.

    This is exacerbated by the fact that we recently traveled together for work for the first time and it did not go well at all. She was rude to every service person/waiter/etc that we encountered; called my food preferences gross; overtly gossiped with another coworker about me and two other coworkers on the trip, and called me a smart-ass in front of our coworkers when I made a joke to try and deflect from something problematic that she had said.

    I know some of my worry/concern here is because I’m young and I have a tendency to take things more personally than I should. The point is, I’m having a hard time trusting her after she demonstrated pretty clearly that she doesn’t respect my experience or authority.

      1. valentine*

        It’s not technical. She is your subordinate and you’ll have to take a hard line with her.

        Her: But I don’t liiike it.
        You: That doesn’t enter into it. This is what we’re doing.

        Her: Smartass./Where’s my damn dessert?
        You: That’s inappropriate. While you’re representing the company, you need to remain professional, polite, and kind/, especially to service workers.

    2. Colette*

      You don’t seem to be exercising your authority? Are you pointing out the mistakes she’s making? Having a serious conversation about why? Pointing out (after the fact, if it’s in front of clients) when she says something inappropriate?

      You need to start by believing you’re in charge, and acting accordingly.

      1. Leslie Knope*

        I know this is what I need to do…but it’s the *believing* I’m in charge that I’m having trouble with.

        1. LQ*

          I have this too, trouble believing it. I do a couple things.
          I …embrace my imposteriness? I go in fully knowing I’m going to have to fake it and with a plan to do so. This makes me essentially behave in the way I need to behave even if I do not feel it because I set aside the I do not feel it part to deal with at 3 am. In that moment in order to act like it I have to act to my core. So I act with my whole being, like I’m the person in charge.
          I also focus on what I need to do. For me I am in public service and really focus on the people we serve, and they don’t have a seat at the table. So I have an obligation to the people outside the building to speak up! (And I write this on all my note books in a spot only I’ll look at and I will reinforce that with myself occasionally.)

          1. Colette*

            Agreed. Fake it if you have to.

            (It is amazing how much you can accomplish if you act like you have the authority to get it done.)

  81. The Tin Man*

    Update from last week – I did ask my boss, who was on his way out, about working from home each Friday. He talked to HR and grandboss about it. HR is on board and grandboss is okay with it but wants to think about it “because he doesn’t want to set a precedent”. Which I think is shortsighted because some peoples’ jobs can be done remotely. My boss used the argument of “If you don’t trust people to get work done at home why do you have them on payroll?”

    I think grandboss will approve. Retention should be on his mind because four people have given notice in the past week, including my boss. On that note I am sharpening my resume in case things tank further or I am forced to take on a lot more work due to the departures.

  82. GigglyPuff*

    I have two upcoming academic interviews, all day type things. I recently got my wisdom teeth out and almost a week later got a dry socket. It’ll have been almost a week since I got the dry socket when I have my first interview. I’m already having problems with food getting caught.

    Should I give the main person (usually manager/head of interview committee) a heads-up about me possibly having bad breath? I’m having a hard time knowing when I do and it’s not normal for me, so I don’t want them to think it is normal. So should I just casually mention it during an appropriate time around when I first meet them?

    1. INeedANap*

      I wouldn’t. That’s just too much detail and it will seem odd. Do you have that rinsy-water-pic-thing? My dentist gave my this little… thing…. that I filled with warm salt water and squeezed and it squirted water out a little nozzle and like blasted food out of the socket to clean it. (If you don’t have it, ask about!)

      If you can toss that and a small packet of salt in your purse, and then just excuse yourself to the restroom for a quick rinse after eating, that would solve the problem.

    2. Temperance*

      Oh my gosh, do NOT do this. Even if your breath isn’t bad, it’s socially inappropriate enough that it is going to be a story that they tell later.

      Get Listerine Pocket Packs and pop a few sheets right before you enter the building for the interview. Don’t eat ahead of time, and spray the water stuff to get any food that might be in your mouth.

    3. Auddish*

      No advice, but I wanted to commiserate. I got my wisdom teeth out two weeks ago and I’m still struggling with the post-op. I’m with you, GigglyPuff!

    4. Kat in VA*

      You probably won’t see this as it’s late and we’re at 1500+ comments but please be very careful and gentle using the water sprayed to clean stuff out of the socket. My doc told me the reason I *got* dry socket (in three out of four teeth pulled, oy) was because I was a little TOO enthusiastic with spraying water into the surgical hole. Sorry to be graphic but wisdom teeth are a bear – and dry socket is the ABSOLUTE WORST. I will say the first time in my life I ever smoked pot was because the pain was so bad that I, staunchly against drugs, would have snorted gutter water in front of Union Station if someone told me it would take the pain away. (The pot didn’t help with the pain but it made me goofy enough to not care about it for a while.)

      1. GigglyPuff*

        Thanks! I do think part of what happened was I rinsed a little to harsh with saltwater after eating some biscuits I wasn’t too careful eating. Luckily it happened on Day 6, and an old dentist of mine was able to see me the next morning and filled it for 24 hours with paste. The pain’s been less every day and wasn’t really ever awful. Unfortunately my other bottom one, which always had something on top of it, I think dead tissue that was protecting the colt, came off last night and freaked me out. I think the clot’s still there, but there’s more room on top for food to get stuck, so now I feel like I have to be careful again. I also have a chronic illness that makes healing typically longer, so I’m just an all around paranoid mess.

        Thanks for the advice everyone. I’ve been around family and luckily they’ve told me my breath hasn’t been bad, except maybe the end of the day, mostly because I’m still sticking to a more liquid diet, because I’m scared I’ll get dry socket in my other extractions. I won’t mention anything, but just fyi it was never going to be super detailed info. I tend to overshare but usually know not in interviews. Basically I was just stressing and anxious.

  83. Rebecca*

    I’ve been listening to all the AAM podcasts, in order from the beginning, and I just want to say how awesome they are.

    That being said, I’m listening to one about tone in the workplace. In my workplace, there’s a woman who is just generally nasty, unreasonable, and terrible to deal with, and of course, she’s in a managerial role in sort of a gatekeeper department. She loves to play “gotcha”, as in, we have all been the victim of her lashing out at one time or another, so if you send her team an email asking them to update something in the system, or questioning if or when something can be accomplished, and she takes issue with it, not only does she “reply all”, she likes to loop in as many managers as possible to criticize, state what the person should have done, and why she won’t act, etc. And, she’s incredibly nasty about it. Once her manager called me to apologize for her behavior, but I said while I appreciated the gesture, it meant nothing because it didn’t come from the source. The company refuses to reign her in, taking a “that’s just Sansa” stance.

    So – for my part, I’m done with her. Honestly, if her building was burning down behind her, and I noticed, I wouldn’t even hand her a glass of water. If she wants to be a nasty keyboard warrior, so be it. From now on, if I need something from her team, I’m going to loop my manager in from the beginning. And honestly, unless it’s something that’s actually going to inconvenience me, I’m just not going to interact with her at all. Maybe that’s the whole point of her nastiness, to cut down on workload? I know many of the people on my team shy away from contacting her for any reason at all because they’re afraid of being publicly “scolded” for some minor perceived infraction of her unwritten rules.

    Also gleaned from AAM – this is not a Rebecca issue, this is a management issue. And, one of those instances where “they don’t pay me enough” to put up with this woman’s abuse.

    1. 123456789101112 do do do*

      When there is a known difficult person that I have to interact with, I definitely loop in my manager from the beginning. But I also walk over to his desk and give him a quick heads up, like “I have to bring Bombastic into this issue because reasons, but you know how he is. Can I loop you into the email chain to keep an eye on things?” It helps me gain some support from my administration, and also kind of makes your problem their problem, i.e. sharing the pain. They’re more likely to do something about her if they have to deal with her mess.

  84. 123456789101112 do do do*

    FEDS! Do Alison’s resume recommendations apply to USAJobs/Federal applications? Is my resume in the federal sphere a marketing document, or do I need to be comprehensive? I list accomplishments, but I sometimes also list duties because they help with the application filters. What are your thoughts?

    1. Not All*

      It needs to be comprehensive. If it helps you to reframe it, think of it as an application NOT as a resume. I don’t think we’ve ever even interviewed someone for a GS-9/11+ whose application wasn’t at least 8-10 pages on any of the dozens of hiring panels I’ve been on. A GS-4 summer seasonal college kid might make it to the interview list with only a couple pages. The assumption is that you will max out (or nearly max out) the character limit in the USAJobs application for every professional position you’ve had.

      (speaking from 3 Department of Interior agencies & US Forest Service…can’t speak to other agencies)

      2. Kathenus*

        Yes! Former fed here. Also customize your letter, resume, and application materials to the specific posting and especially the listed skills needed (sorry forget the federal verbiage on this). You’ll probably find that you repeat the same information multiple times in the application because of referencing similar information/experience for different questions or sections. When I was a hiring manager, even if we knew that someone had a certain skill or experience if they did not explicitly put it in their materials we couldn’t consider them as having it, or it was considered unfair to those we didn’t know as well. It takes a ton of time to do a thorough federal application. Good luck.

      3. Random*

        That’s definitely counterintuitive for what I know from business world resumes so I appreciate that insight!

      4. Kat in VA*

        I have two resumes – a concise, one-page resume for non-government entities, and a literal eight-page document that details, exhaustively, every damned skill and how I’ve applied it in all of my jobs going back to 1998 with a 20 year hiatus in there.

        I’ve gotten callbacks and phone interviews from different different areas (including several three-letter agencies to places like Department of Commerce) using the ginormous resume, so I guess I’m doing it right?

        /clearance creep complaint on/ Too bad the feds don’t pay what the private sector pays, and oh, what I would give to have the ever-so-coveted TS or TS/SCI clearance because those jobs are plentiful here, while folks who can do the job and also have the clearance are…not. One private sector company that does a ton of business with the DOD and other agencies literally requires its janitorial staff to have a TSI/SCI…for a job that pay $15.00 an hour. No one sponsors, but everyone wants. Urgh. /clearance creep complaint off/

  85. Deb Morgan*

    Low-stakes question: What do you do with your handwritten notes from old jobs?
    I plan on shredding certain notes (system passwords or anything with client names), but for some reason, I’m having trouble letting go of the rest.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’ve kept a slim manila folder of papers from various short-term jobs, so that I can “refresh my recollection” about the work if it may come up in a future job interview, or if I get called back for another gig.

    2. Middle Manager*

      A few ideas
      – Put them in a box and write the date on it. If you don’t open it because you don’t need anything in it for a given time frame (6 month, a year, whatever you are comfortable with), shred it all.
      – If it will give you peace of mind scan it all into a computer file and shred the paper.

  86. Murphy*

    This is a really small thing, but it’s bothering me. I manage the announcement and process for Blue Teapots. There are many many teapots, but not all of them are blue. I work autonomously, connecting with my boss when necessary, but in most cases it’s not. A new employee in a team dedicated to large teapots will sometimes send me info on blue teapots, which is appreciated. However, she does 2 things that annoy me 1) She copies both her boss and my boss, which is not necessary, and is weird 2) instead of putting the info in an email, she puts it in an attached google doc. I can’t copy and paste directly from the doc without the extra work, and if she just put the info in the email, it would be easier. I’ve already asked her once not to use the google doc, but she’s not listening to me, and it really is more work sometimes. Any suggestions?

    1. Kathenus*

      Have a conversation with her about it. Ask again if she would please put the information in the body of the email and why you’re asking (easier for you to access). It could be a habit, in which case bringing it up again might help. She might not understand why you’re asking, and knowing the rationale might be more motivation for her to work with you on this. Or, you might find out there’s a reason she’s doing it that you aren’t aware of, such as it’s easier for her for some reason; which might change the way you think about it.

      1. valentine*

        Reply all reminding her you need it in the email body and that one usually doesn’t cc managers for such.

  87. Confronting in DFW*

    When you have to tell your boss they violated fundraising ethics.

    Yesterday I had to confront my boss about the misuse of a restricted donation. She used a gift card, that was supposed to be for a fundraising event prize, as a volunteer recognition and thank you. She did it because she didn’t want to spend money from the budget.

    I was second hand in the process, responsible for writing the thank you to the donor. And when I realized what hade been done I was uncomfortable and upset for being put in that position.

    Not only that, but giving gift cards, essentially cash, to volunteers is problematic with the IRS.

    Not to mention the fact that we have worked really hard on the solicitation letters and we’re receiving a good response and she decided to use our efforts for something else.

      1. Confronting in DFW*

        She was embarrassed, upset, and respectful of my concern. She’s been with us for three months, and although not new to nonprofit but is new to being an executive director.

        As I’ve been an executive director (different non-profit) and now a Coordinator (with this organization) I was a little worried going to her because I didn’t want her to think I was trying to use my previous experience against her.

        Under the previous executive director, there’s been a history of grant’s not being used for what they were written for.

        What’s more frustrating is that, as a new executive director, she’s been going out and meeting lots of people and paying for all the coffee/lunch for those she’s invited to meet with. Yett when want to recognize a long-term volunteer she doesn’t want to spend the money. I don’t think we even have a volunteer recognition budget.

  88. louise*

    Short version: an employee with an extremely troubled home life talks about it at work. It feels like a ridiculous double standard… “people with calm home lives can mention them at work, but yours is way beyond the pale and it’s not for polite conversation” so that’s not the message I want to send. Help!

    All of my team and I (supervisor) work independently in various locations and rarely see each other in person. One employee with a history of being abused as both a child and adult will bring it up on the rare occasions she works with one particular peer. In addition, she recently had felony charges filed against her for a violent act and told the employee all about that, plus her spouse’s routine violence. The peer she told was very frightened and requested that I not let the oversharer know the peer told me about the conversation because she is literally scared of the peer now.

    I will not have them work together in the future (easy fix as it was rare anyway) but I can’t figure out how to address what’s appropriate/professional work talk without it being obvious how I know inappropriate conversations occurred. I am good at shutting it down when she tries to overshare with me on the phone and each time she has, I have said that those types of discussions can never occur at client sites (which is the only place these remote employees work). Any other ideas?

    Additional info: I have quite a few more details that are too specific to share, but that make it obvious she is not a threat in the workplace.

    1. Dragoning*

      I don’t think this is about “Your home life” versus “other people’s home lives.” She’s talking about violence at work, even if it was in the past, or outside of work, that’s not really…appropriate in most jobs. I certainly wouldn’t appreciate someone regaling me with the details of a brutal fight scene in a horror movie they were talking about, either.

      I’m not sure why you need to make it non-obvious you know she had conversations that made other people uncomfortable.

      1. valentine*

        It’s not obvious she’s not a threat. I hope you’re taking the felony charges seriously.

    2. Kathenus*

      Given that the conversation veered into discussion of an accusation of violence by the employee, I think you need to get your manager and HR in the loop for liability/safety reasons. Make sure they are aware of this situation and possibly get their guidance on how to proceed.

    3. AnonAcademic*

      Are there any resources you can direct her towards, like an employee assistance program? I think it would be a kindness to reiterate something like “topics including your conflicts at home, especially those with violent or upsetting aspects or law enforcement involvement, are not appropriate workplace conversation. If you feel you cannot avoid talking about these topics, you can take time off as needed to speak to a counselor or get professional help, but you cannot continue to make your colleagues uncomfortable.” You could add “This is a required part of holding your position and if you cannot follow these guidelines you are risking termination” if you think it needs to be spelled out that clearly. This may sound harsh, but one thing that happens with abuse is the normalization of violence, whether it’s yelling or physical, and for this person the only place where the norms are “normal” might be work. Not addressing how extreme her home life anecdotes are because it feels awkward or difficult may inadvertently reinforce this normalization.

    4. qvaken*

      I think I view your predicament as being more tricky than other commenters do. I don’t think she’s doing anything “bad” or “wrong”, per se, or at least I doubt she intends to. It’s very sad that she has experienced and continues to experience these things. I feel sympathetic to her, admiring of her for surviving these things so far, and kind of impressed that she’s talking about them when so many people are afraid to do so.

      I’m not a manager, but you’ll surely also need her to feel comfortable to disclose to you if it’s pertinent. For example, if she’s leaving her boyfriend over the weekend she might you to be alert to whether she attends work on Monday or at least calls you to make you aware she won’t be in. (Can you tell I’ve had personal experience with this?)

      On the other hand, it would be helpful to her to know that talking about these things regularly at work can be a bit full-on for her colleagues. If she works on the skill of choosing appropriate conversations for the workplace, it will work in her favour throughout her career.

      It will also be helpful to her if you make her aware of the Employee Assistance Program. Not because you think there’s anything wrong with her, and not just because you have to tell her about it as a manager, but because she has the option get some heavy things off her chest to an independent person for for free.

      As long as you conduct yourself professionally and with integrity, then even if she doesn’t take the feedback well at first (not gonna lie; I probably wouldn’t have), there’s a good chance she’ll reflect on it and keep it in mind for the future.

  89. The Comeback Kid*

    I’d love some advice form folks who have more job market experience than I do!

    I’ve been at my job in a grocery store (in a couple of different positions) for over 18 years, since I was 20. I understand it’s commonly accepted practice to not use a current boss as a reference, since that can make work awkward while job hunting, but I’ve pretty much just had this one job.
    My options as to what manager to put as a reference are either the manager I had for 17 years at my previous location, who was honestly a real jerk to me a lot and I don’t think he ever stopped seeing me as a 20 year old screw up (cuz my first few years working for him I was definitely a screw up, but the last solid decade I’ve been a top worker), or my current manager who’s only been my boss for a year since I moved location. I’m thinking I should put my current manager, yeah?
    And in that case, at what point do I give him the heads up that I’m job searching and what’s my script fort that? If it helps, my reason for wanting to leave is that the company capped out my wages and I haven’t had a raise in 3 years. My manager knows that this is frustrating for me but the decisions on wages are made at corporate level.

    Please give me good advice, lovely comment section folks!

    1. Miss Vaaaanjie*

      You can use your current manager, but you said you were in a couple of positions, did those roles have a different immediate supervisor you could ask for a reference?

      I would venture away from the workplace and look for professional references in your extracurricular network. Church, volunteering, sports, anything in which you have demonstrated results that someone could highlight in their reference of you.

      If you feel that you have a good relationship with your boss, you can let them know anytime. My husband has a great relationship with his boss and he always notifies him if he has interviews. His boss knows that this isn’t my husband forever job. My boss knows that I’ll be leaving, at some point, because this isn’t our forever city/home. I made that clear in the interview. I recognize that this isn’t the case for the majority of workplaces/employees.

      Good luck

      1. The Comeback Kid*

        When I cashiered my manager was the store manager. When I moved to doing file maintenance for the store, my boss is still the store manager, but now I have a corporate data team that I semi-answer to. It’s a weird Too Many Cooks situation. My current boss is a really good dude and I think would give me a good reference, but I wonder if a hiring manager would wonder why I didn’t give the name of the boss I’d had for much much much longer.
        There’s a good chance I’m just overthinking all of this due to not having job hunted for almost 20 years. I’m dreading walking into my manager’s office soon and having to say “Hey Bob, you know how I’m really frustrated by my pay being capped out? Anyways, I’ve been looking for a job that pays more so you might get a phone call. Cool? Cool. Bye!”
        That’s NOT how I should approach him, right?

  90. CarrieAnn*

    After 5 years at my last job, I finally took the leap and left for a different opportunity. It’s really more of a sideways move, my title is the same, job duties are about the same. I was really hesitant to take it but I’m really happy so far.
    Pros – The commute is much better, the location is much more convenient, I don’t have to pay for parking, I can get to personal appointments easily, the hours are a lot more flexible. I have the ability to work from home, my supervisor doesn’t expect me to be in the office for long hours just for face time.
    Cons – I thought the salary was good because it’s a little higher than my last salary but they don’t offer a 403b match like my last employer and their vacation time is slightly less so I’d say it’s really a wash. In fact, it’s pretty low for my experience. I wanted to ask them to revise my salary but it feels like that would be wrong so I’m planning on bringing it up at my review.

    I’m still happy though but it seems most of my coworkers are really cynical and unhappy. I’ve been told that it took a really long time for them to fill my position because they couldn’t find the right person. When people see me in the hallway, they’ll ask me in a concerned tone if I’m doing ok. So it’s already putting a damper on my excitement. Some coworkers have said to me to get the experience and move on because raises are non-existent and the manager is a pain. So it feels like the staff is really demoralized. They also say that one of the managers is really difficult to work with and several people who came before me have left. My experience with this manager hasn’t been bad at all. On the bright side, a new VP was also recently hired and she appears to have a different philosophy from her predecessor and seems to want to improve the culture.

    For now though, I feel like the naïve kid who is a excited about a lousy job and is annoying the hell out of everyone else because they all hate their job.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      This was my experience when I left old job and started at current job. What I discovered is that the people who made the comments have been here FOREVER and do not handle change well. After the second or third anecdote about my toxic old job, they shut up pretty quickly and realized that this is a really great place to work.

    2. qvaken*

      I feel for you. It sucks working in a place where everyone is unhappy, even if you feel happy. It particularly sucks if they’re forever suspicious about management, management decisions, changes within the organisation, new employees, and so on, when you can see benefits in any of those. (Or when you happen to be the new employee.)

      I suppose you could take the opportunity to find out why people are unhappy. I recently experienced something similar – I was happy about something while my coworkers were unhappy – and at first I perceived them as just being difficult, but once I really listened to them about the cause of their unhappiness, things came out that I hadn’t expected and that I agreed with. It helped me to have more empathy and respect for my colleagues, and also helped me to put into words issues that I was having with the organisation, even if I was overall happy with this one decision.

  91. Sally Sparrow*

    I got a new job which has been pretty great thus far. My problem is (as a result of my last job) I am constantly terrified of saying or doing or sending the wrong thing. I rarely did mess up like that, but old boss (a woman) constantly questioned me and everything. Old job/old boss was also very knee jerk reaction and would easily blow up over things. Sometimes it is as simple as someone asks what my phone number is and other times it is legit work things. I know this is a holdover from toxic job, but I worry it makes me look bad.

    For context, I am a late 20s woman in a role that is extremely technical. This is also my 2nd job after college. Thus far there hasn’t been anything but constructive guidance and positivity communicated to me. Just my own inner demons and bad habits.

    1. Zona the Great*

      I’m right there with you. I feel im constantly making a fool of myself when I fall over justifying my actions or giving way too much info when I need time off. It’s embarrassing but I think my boss understands that people will come with holdovers.

    2. Wishing You Well*

      Remember to breathe deeply at times and remind yourself regularly that this is a different job/different boss. Find a mantra that works for you. Stretching your arms and back during the work day can help relieve muscle tension.
      I’m cheering for you from afar!

  92. Michaela*

    I know very well that using an offer as a way of getting more money etc out of your current job is generally a bad idea — but am I a special snowflake who can pull it off?

    I’m getting recruited for a senior individual contributor role at a company that’s interesting but I’m not madly in love with; the compensation they’re offering is …ehhhh (they haven’t given me a final number, the range they mentioned starts at 5K above my current salary, but the benefits are not as good: I’d need to get them 30K up from the bottom of that range to get the equivalent of my current 401k match, for example); I’ve been fighting for a title bump in my current position for a while now, and I’d like to stay because of the benefits and office culture, but I’d kind of like to ask if my executive director would be willing to argue that a title change is a FREE way of retaining me. Am I totally out of line here?

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      The only problem with using an offer as a bargaining chip is that you run the risk of your company calling your bluff and telling you to take it, and it doesn’t sound like you want to. (Unless you work in a really unhealthy environment that forces you to use outside offers in order to get any raise/promotion, but it doesn’t sound like you do.)

      Plus there’s also the risk of being seen as “tainted” after using an outside offer, it’s not right but they can often see that as disloyal, that you held the company hostage for a promotion, which can leave you vulnerable next time layoffs come around or just hold you back in future opportunities.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      I’m sorry — I’m not seeing anything here that would make this a good candidate to make an exception to the rule.

  93. Zona the Great*

    I need advice on how to handle the awkward when a peer is getting “yelled at” by our boss. Boss never actually yells but she does get really tough with one struggling coworker who can’t seem to do well no matter how much we try to help her. Boss has always been justified when getting tough even when in front of the group–please trust me that this is not an abusive situation.

    However, it is so so uncomfortable to watch. I have to stop myself from trying to defuse it with weird comments and I usually end up playing with an imaginary fuzzball on my shirt. I hate this. How do you handle such events?

    1. Havarti*

      Just because it’s justified doesn’t mean it’s the right thing to do. If the person is struggling despite help, it might be better to let her go or reassign her than putting on a display like this. Especially as it sounds like it has happened more than once. If someone in the group with capital to burn could talk to the boss, it might eliminate the need to check your shirt for imaginary fuzzballs. Or speak as a group if everyone is uncomfortable with it.

      When the upper level managers get feisty in meetings, I usually limit fidgeting, put on a pokerface, and then just glance around without moving my head much. But the arguments I’ve witnessed were between equals or near enough to make no difference. A boss reprimanding a coworker would be harder to quietly sit through.

      1. Zona the Great*

        Thank you for offering this perspective. I’ll admit that it doesn’t seem right in my gut.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      It doesn’t have to be abusive (actual yelling, profanity, insults) to be inappropriate. Seriously reprimanding someone in front of their peers is inappropriate in pretty much any context I can think of, and your (and others’) reaction to it is one major reason why. You’re effectively watching a public shaming, whether or not it’s deserved.
      The boss really needs to be pulling that person aside and having a private conversation.

      In the moment, I suppose you could suddenly have something to do in another area of the office. But, do you have the kind of relationship with your boss where, possibly in a one-on-one meeting, you could ask her to take performance-related conversations in private? You could add that it’s distracting and uncomfortable because it’s hard to avoid overhearing.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      It is in fact an abusive situation because your boss is reprimanding someone publicly when she should be doing it in private and, by your own admission, she’s doing it repeatedly. If your coworker really is struggling to grasp the job, the manager should have let her go a long time ago – you don’t keep someone around to be your punching bag. Additionally, like Zoma the Great said, there is never a context when it’s appropriate for a manager to be dressing down an employee in front of their peers like this. Your boss is an ass.

  94. Alina*

    What are some questions that you have found useful to ask during interviews? Questions that give you a better idea of the culture, work, what to expect, actually get genuine answers

    I have an interview coming up and I definitely want to find out about what career advancement looks like for ppl who don’t have a particular certification, how distinct or silo-d different departments are, and since there seems to be some amount of remote work, would like to find out more about that. A friend also said she asks whether they eat lunch together to get an idea about the culture.

    1. irene adler*

      For the boss: How do you support your reports? If they give you a serious answer, that’s a good sign. If they laugh at this or give you a one sentence answer, be concerned. Ask follow-up questions to their response.
      How do you coordinate remote work? Is this an option for this position? If so, how frequently or under what circumstances?

      For other interviewers you encounter:
      What is the work culture like? Can you give me an example or story to illustrate this?
      What do the C-suite folks talk about when they speak to the rank-and-file? How often do they interact with employees?
      What opportunities will there be for job enrichment or advancement? Will I be able to take advantage of these opportunities? Can you give me a couple of examples of employees who have taken advantage of these opportunities- where did they start and where are they now?

      What is the onboarding process for this position?

      RE: Lunch/culture
      Ask what folks ‘do’ for their lunch break. You want to find out if they all eat at their desks (and presumably keep working), or if they actually take a break from the work (and exercise, shop, go to local restaurants, on-site cafeteria, etc). (If they give you a list of nearby restaurants, then they aren’t understanding the question)

      What constitutes a full work day? Will I be expected to put in OT? If so, how much will be expected-can you quantify this (5 hr/week?, 30 hr/week? seasonal?)?

      How do different depts. communicate with each other? (might specifically name two or three depts. to get a better idea how your dept would interact with another dept)

      1. Alina*

        This is great! Thank you!!!

        I sometimes wonder if questions like this will make it seem like I’m not 100% interested in the position. But I’m not – I’m like 90% interested and then the answers to these will make up the rest.

        1. irene adler*

          They will be impressed with your “savvy-ness”.
          I’ve been complemented -by the interviewers- regarding these questions.

        2. LaDeeDa*

          I always tell them that it is really important to me that I make sure I am right for them. I want to person they need, as much I was I want them to be the company I need. That always goes over well!

      2. Hello, I'd like to report my boss*

        “How did this role become vacant?” you might pick up information about how people progress from this position, and you might hear some red flags about turnover or other issues with the job.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      After working in some bad cultures I will take a less paying job to make sure I go someplace I really enjoy being at. So I ask a lot of questions around culture, here are some of mine:
      Tell me about the team?
      Who is the right person to compliment your team?
      Can you tell me about your management style- how often do meet with your direct reports? How do you like to offer and give feedback?
      How often do you like to receive status updates, and in what format?
      How do you help your team facilitate bridging silos within the organization?

  95. Anax*

    Hi, folks. I asked last week about whether I was being productive enough – by mid-afternoon, I’m starting to fry out on my cognitively-intense, creatively-intense work.

    A lot of you suggested more structured breaks and pomodoros, and… you were right. It’s been helping a lot to force myself to stretch and take breaks regularly, and I’m feeling substantially better.

    Thank you!

  96. Dash*

    I’ve got an offer from a three-person web development agency that’s looking to grow. The offer is quite excellent, but I had a somewhat bad experience at an agency in the past that’s making me hesitant to step back into that world. The profit-motive, the pace, the need to be constantly on the very bleeding edge of current trends was very stressful.

    I’m also interviewing with a university. I’ve worked at two other universities and enjoyed both of those but after 15 years at the last university job, I wanted to move onto something else. My heart sort of wants to go to the university gig, but the commute, time off, retirement, etc. stuff is less desirable than the agency gig. Plus, I’m in school, and the agency indicated they’re super cool with reducing hours/salary if I need more time for homework and such, and the university hasn’t given me that assurance.

    My head says go to the agency, but I worry about the pace. Thoughts?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Before you make a decision, I would check back in with the agency. Thank them for the offer, say you need a day or two to consider it, and then say you want to clarify a few things. I think it would be fine for you to refer back to your previous agency gig and say you had a few things that you wished were different there, and then bring up the pacing and ask how that works in their office.

      The problem with a university is that they take a really, really long time with hiring generally. If you turn down the agency offer hoping for the university, then you could be waiting forever, and then end up with neither. And also, as someone who is working and going to school, I can say that flexibility and willingness to work with you is really important.

      1. Dash*

        The university is making me an offer this afternoon. I’m at the very end of both processes and just trying to figure out which way to go. Thanks for your response!

        1. LaDeeDa*

          I don’t have any advice, but just wanted to say good luck!! Please let us know what you decide and how it is working for you!

    2. Jess*

      If the agency is willing to reduce hours/salary if you need it, wouldn’t that pretty much resolve the pace question? Figure out what’s the lowest you need to bring in to get by while you’re in school, and what that would look like in terms of hours at the agency… if *that* feels manageable, then you have a cushion if full-time there is too much.

  97. Keys to the Kingdom*

    I’m in a bit of a sticky situation. When I was interviewing for my current job, I was told my predecessor would be staying on board for a period of time as a contractor to facilitate a smooth handover. That was totally fine by me, because I was going to be taking over a behemoth of a role, which was super exciting but also daunting! My boss encouraged me to use them as a benchmark, but to not be mistaken and know that I’m the new, let’s say, Teapot Manager.

    The problem is that, five months later, Contractor is treating me more like an assistant than a colleague. They constantly berate and insult me, often looping in my boss to make a point. Normally this wouldn’t be an issue, but my boss has often made passing comments about how he likes Contractor, trusts Contractor, and often only loops me in to communications with Contractor when it comes to decision-making – something that I’m supposed to be responsible for. My boss has even suggested that Contractor’s, uh, contract, is going to be extended to even longer than it was supposed to be.

    It’s clear that Contractor still thinks they are in a position of power over someone like me, particularly because they were at the company before me and because they are older than me by a significant amount. They quite often try to play this card, and have even told me to my face that I am ‘junior’ to them and ‘less experienced’ – even though I’ve been hired to permanently replace them!

    Everything reached a bit of a head last Friday. I was out for dinner with friends and wanted to search a nearby bar for us to move on to. I still had the browser version of my email client open on my personal phone, and saw some emails marked ‘urgent’ from Contractor. Quick note – they’re based in a timezone quite a few hours behind me. I replied to them because it was a matter of forwarding some emails from before, and after the last one was sent, I closed the window and went off to find a bar. The problem was that on Monday, I arrived to an email rudely asking me to acknowledge a request they had sent – AFTER I had ‘logged off’. I responded calmly informing Contractor that, as it was late on a Friday, I wasn’t actually working and otherwise engaged. Contractor then responded by accusing me of ignoring their email, saying I had a habit of not responding to their requests, or indeed complying with them, as well as accusing me of not checking a report before sending it to them for QA. Basically, telling me and my boss that I’m incompetant and insolent.

    I stated that I was sorry if I made it seem like I was working, but left it at that because I felt Contractor didn’t need to know why I didn’t respond. I responded to the accusation saying that I actually did check the report, and had even informed them that it would be delayed so that I could perform one last round of checking myself.

    After sending I never heard back from them, but decided that enough was enough and I needed to bring this up with my boss – after all, it wasn’t the first time they’ve tried to insult my intelligence (including my ability to take notes, which were then proven to be completely correct by our client when Contractor asked them). But I don’t know how to approach it. I have a meeting with my boss next week to discuss some outlying projects and get some questions answered, but considering how much my boss likes Contractor, I don’t know how to broach the topic. What do you guys think?

    TLDR; Contractor is treating me like their assistant with zero respect, and I want to speak up about how rude they are being. How can I broach this topic with my boss without sounding like a brat or like I’m complaining about the situation, especially when they like this person?

    1. Deryn*

      Could you use the email as a way to bring it up? Maybe along the lines of, “I’m sure you saw the email exchange between Contractor and I last week about the XYZ project. I just wanted to clarify that [relevant details here about how you are definitely not incompetant and insolent]. More broadly, though, I wanted to talk about the interactions I’ve been having with Contractor. This particular email exchange is pretty typical of how our interactions tend to go, and my concern is that [insert relevant themes from your interactions here].” Without personally knowing all the players in the scene, I don’t know if just bringing up the rudeness on it’s own will get you anywhere (to be clear, I would hope that it would!) given that your boss holds Contractor in high esteem. If you can embed that concern into how it impacts your work, though, it might be more effective.

      1. Reba*

        And get a timeline hammered out for when Contractor is going to actually leave! I know you say the role is complex, but my first thought was “why on EARTH is this person still there FIVE MONTHS later?” Maybe you can propose a time limit, reasonable goals for the time, and explain that working in this manner (triangulating among Boss, Contractor, and You, lack of good rapport and collaborative treatment from Contract) is inefficient and you feel ready to take the reins. You can acknowledge the good relationship they have while still standing up for yourself!

        1. valentine*

          You gotta get out. Even if Contractor left today (#prayers), you’d be looking at, what? Ten months of Boss banging on about Contractor like an obsessive ex. Meanwhile…

          Tell boss, “When I came onboard, it was for a transition from qrs to xyz in t time, with me absorbing the lead from Contractor. Instead, Contractor treats me like an assistant and you both exclude me from this, that, and the other. What concrete timeline do we have now? On what dates will things shift and by what dates will I have ownership of x, y, and z?” He’s going to say you’re great or something else his actions don’t show and possibly that it’s nice to have both Contractor and you, etc. But what has he done to get you to the position he hired you for? Maybe Contractor’s jealous and sees you as a threat. Instead of moving on (has he nowhere to go?), he’s going to be your albatross, and Boss is perfectly happy with this. They’re doing what they want. Now, it’s your turn.

    2. HappySnoopy*

      Take back your power. Make sure you get boss’s buy in that they loop you in or just forward unread convos they are having with contractor because these conversations are undermining your authority and having full grasp of the situation on things you are deciding.

      Have a plan of how you’re going to communicate and continue to communicate (and wean out) contractor role professionally of course and see about boss’s buy in.

      Approach your script of. This is what is happening with C. This is impacting my work/timline/project due to y. I feel like C thinks our roles are reversed here. While I was starting out, I appreciated his insights and experience (even if u didn’t…it sound like C and boss are chummy, so may help blunt issues), but now that I am more up to speed, I am struggling with C. I am planning to do x y z. I appreciate your support or any insight on something I have missed.

      Good luck!

    3. qvaken*

      I feel for you. I have experienced direct hostility from long-standing and well-respected colleagues before, and I’m never sure what to do. The hostility always seems to receive support when the workplace culture is to value “the old”, so to speak, and not to trust “the new”, including new, and especially younger, employees.

      I don’t have the answers for you I’m sorry, but I feel for you and I hope you get a good outcome for yourself.

  98. frockbot*

    I posted a similar question to this a few weeks back, but I thought I’d run it by again and see if anyone had thoughts. If the answer to the question, “Why are you looking for a new position?” is, “I want a more consistent schedule and a nicer manager,” how do you express that politely and neutrally? IS there a way to do that politely and neutrally, or is it best to find another reason?

    Context for the interested: I’ve been in my current position for 2.5 years. I’ve been given a lot of opportunities to learn and grow, and I feel like I’ve reached a point now where I’m comfortable and confident and really doing good work. (And I have the feedback from my grandboss to back that up.) But my schedule is wildly unpredictable and my manager (though a nice person) gets really prickly when people ask questions or suggest changes to the way things are run. I love my work, my coworkers, and my community, but more and more I feel like the working environment my manager has created isn’t for me.

    A position just opened nearby that I think I would be a good fit for. I’d have to do some more growing to fit one particular aspect of the position, but overall I’m confident I’m qualified to apply. But what do I do when they ask me why I’m considering a change? I can’t honestly say that I’ve reached a point in my current position where I have nothing else to learn. I’m not bored. I genuinely love 80% of my current job. But that last 20%–the unpredictability, the stress of working for someone who isn’t receptive to changing the way she runs the place, a few other things–is really wearing me down. Can I say that? Or should I be working to find a positive reason why I want to JOIN the new team, rather than explaining the truth of why I want to LEAVE this one? (And if anyone has examples of how they’ve done that in the past, I’d love to hear them!)

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I don’t think there is anything wrong with saying you want a more predictable schedule. It’s something a lot of people look for in a job. And honestly it’s a solid enough reason that I don’t think you need to mention wanting a nicer manager as well.

      1. frockbot*

        That’s helpful, thank you! Wanting a more consistent schedule is really my primary reason for wanting to jump ship, so it’s nice to hear that’s not wildly out of line.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      I usually say “I am ready for a new challenge!” and if I am past the phone interview and interviewing with the hiring manager I will say more about their organization and why I am excited by XYZ they are doing/known for… and sometimes I will mention the uncertainty within my organization if they know my company/field.

      1. frockbot*

        So focusing on the positive rather than the negative. That makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks! :)

    3. iglwif*

      I think “I want a more predictable schedule” is a perfectly uncontroversial thing to say in an interview. Lots of people get burnt out on an unpredictable schedule or were OK with it 5 years ago but now are older / at a different life stage where consistency is way more important.

      The part about wanting a nicer manager is trickier, because of course obviously you don’t want to say bad things about your manager in an interview even when they are the literal worst.

      So I think if I were you I’d stick to the schedule part + find something to highlight that excites you about the new job, and use that combo of things.

      1. frockbot*

        Yeah, I wasn’t really planning to mention the manager part, honestly, because that seemed like a less-than-stellar idea. And the schedule is the biggest hangup for me, so focusing on that and spinning in a positive reason to join this org makes sense. Thank you!

    4. qvaken*

      Why not both? I have been surprised over the years about how little recruiters mind when you tell them why you were unhappy with your previous or current employer. If you put it into the right words then what’s the problem with being honest about it?

      I personally see nothing wrong with “I want a more consistent schedule,” and I’m sure you could find good wording to say that you want to move on from your current manager – something like “I struggle with my manager’s style”? Or “I think I could thrive under a different management style”? (I’m not a recruiter and I’m not in your shoes; your judgement will be better than mine.)

      At the same time, you can also research the new company and list the reasons why you want to work there.

      Then again, they might not ask the question! Best to be prepared, but it might not end up being a problem for you anyway.

      1. frockbot*

        It’s good to know you’ve had positive experiences being honest about why you’re leaving an employer in the past! My instinct is to definitely mention the schedule part, because I don’t want to leave here just to wind up in a new position with a similar scheduling structure. And I think pairing that with a positive reason why I’d like to work for this new company is a good plan. Thank you! :)

  99. workerbee*

    I work for a small department of a division of a large company. My department recently got a new Senior Director. This new SD is coming down pretty hard on us. For example, strictly enforcing the company’s “butts in seats” requirements, which is not something that is generally done in my division, and drastically different from the culture in my department prior to their arrival. We are all salaried on my team (don’t officially clock in/out), so the SD had security give a list of all of my swipes in/out of the building to show that I was not working the full required hours (averaging about 30 minutes under, but I never take a lunch break). This feels excessive to me, especially since this was done surreptitiously without first stating that they were going to enforce the policy.

    New SD is also not thrilled with my performance, claiming that I do what is required and nothing above and beyond. SD has been supervising my work for only a few weeks, during which I have been working very hard to keep up with all of my tasks (it is an unusually busy time) and have been successful at that, now even ahead of schedule. To have that reduced to “only doing what’s expected” is very disheartening. I have worked for my department for several years and have received 3 promotions during that time. Every other manager I have ever had at this job has been thrilled with my work. I feel like nothing I do will ever please my new boss (who is actually my boss’s boss – my actual manager thinks extremely highly of me).

    Does anyone have any advice on how to try to change my mindset to adjust to my new circumstances? I’ve worked for micromanagers in the past, and it did not go very well. It seems like all I can do is put my head down, agree with everything the SD says, and see if I can adjust. I get the impression that they don’t really care if I’m happy or if I quit (why would they if they think I’m a mediocre employee?), so any discussions with them would be fruitless and only cause them to dislike me more. I’m going to give it some time to see if things settle down, but if things continue on the path they’re currently on I’m going to start looking for employment elsewhere, which saddens me because until a few weeks ago I really liked my job. It doesn’t hurt that the pay is pretty good for my field and the company benefits are excellent.

    1. LCL*

      I’m not sure I can help with your mindset. Because your Senior Director is a dope. Employees only doing what is expected of them, if they do it well, is a blessing. Being able to do your expected job well is something to be proud of. That doesn’t make you a mediocre employee, that makes you a valued and competent one.

      1. CatCat*

        A+. I’m totally baffled that they would want you to do things that are not expected. What on earth are those things even supposed to be?

        Lots of red flag behavior. Sorry you’re dealing with this :-(

        1. workerbee*

          That’s what I left my meeting with her wondering. It was basically “be better!” feedback without any specifics of what “better” would look like – just buzzwords and phrases like “above and beyond” and “innovate.” I’m willing to admit that I might be a bit complacent after being in my current role for the last 4 years, but I need more specific guidance of what I should be doing differently. This makes me feel like she just likes “putting me in my place” and doesn’t actually want to help me improve. It doesn’t help that I’m not sure the other members of the team have been having as rough of a time as I have, except my manager, who has confided in me that she feels very stressed.

          I’m honestly starting to wonder why my new boss dislikes me so much. Jumping to a “my boss just hates me” attitude isn’t helpful, though, because it blinds you to what role you could be playing in the dynamic and places all of the blame externally.

      2. workerbee*

        Thank you for your reply. I am starting to wonder if I’ve entered the Twilight Zone, where being reliable and good at your job is minimally acceptable. She did throw me a bone that she can tell that I’m very smart, so I’m wondering if she expects more from me because she feels I’m capable of more. Even if that’s true, I don’t understand why that means I would be held to a different standard than other employees.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Don’t fall for that trap. At least, it sounds like a trap to me. This person comes in, immediately starts harrassing you about your work hours and product which previously were well received for years, and then tells you to “do better” because you’re “very smart”…

          My first thought is this is corporate negging – she seems to be implying you should burn yourself out trying to meet vague (and therefore impossible) standards to prove that you’re smart and worthy of the job. My guess is, like anyone who’s ever been negged, the problem is not YOU, it is the SD. She isn’t giving you concrete feedback for a reason: either she has no idea what good performance is or she thinks this vague implied threat is an effective way to motivate staff, and ultimately it doesn’t matter. If SHE doesn’t change her management style very soon, you should get out before you find yourself chasing the impossible goal of satisfying her. Because the job definitely won’t be the one you loved before. I’m sorry, your situation sounds awful.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Speculation alert – SD has been promoted or recruited beyond their actual capability or knowledge so try to control the thing they can (time in seats etc), is it possible that SD was recruited based on “knowing someone”?

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      If I were in your position, I would speak to my other co-workers and see if they are experiencing similar feedback/issues with the SD. If they are, then I’d consider approaching your boss, individually (just you…coworkers can separately if they want), and convey that you have spoken to others who are receiving similar feedback and you are all concerned and then ask her if she is able to discuss what she is doing to advocate to the SD for her team, since you say that she thinks highly of you (and presumably the rest of the team as well). At the end of the day, the SD is new, your boss is not. I think that your boss would be remiss if she did not inform the SD that some of the policies she’s choosing to enforce so strictly are not in keeping with the culture that has been cultivated prior to her arrival and that her team is accomplishing what it needs to and has been for quite a while. She’d also be remiss if she isn’t backing up her team. It’s possible that she is doing this behind closed doors, and you all just don’t know, but I personally think she needs to tell you something, even if it’s that she needs her job and really doesn’t have standing/capital/balls to challenge the SD on the SD’s assessments of you and other employees.

      However, if this issue is limited to you, I’d still say that you need to find out one way or another if your boss has your back or not. If she doesn’t and she isn’t willing to stand up for you, then you really need to decide if you want to hang in there and see if things improve or if you want to move on. For whatever reason, this SD sounds like they have you in their sights and don’t plan to let up. Are you able to transfer to another dept/division to get away from this SD?

    4. Jess*

      Do you know if SD was hired on as a change agent? Or how your division has been doing overall in terms of performance, compared to how the company wants it to be doing? Either of these may suggest a “shape up or ship out” or “cleaning house” approach. If neither seems to apply, it may be that SD just has a very different management style overall, in which case you get to figure out whether you want to adapt or leave, or it may be that SD is coming in strict, much like an elementary school teacher in September, and may ease up down the road.

      I’d try to learn as much as I could about where SD is coming from. Have a conversation and try to build a rapport if you can. Ask questions about what SD is looking for and what their vision is for the division, that sort of thing. SD probably *doesn’t* care if you specifically are happy or if you quit, their job is to lead an effective team, and you’re both figuring out right now if you are good teammates. Aim for finding the place for mutual respect, whether that means working together or recognizing that parting ways may make sense. And… remember that this is capitalism, so there is a power dynamic in the mix that has no bearing on your worth as a human being, however it unfolds.

  100. First Time Commenter*

    I have an unfortunate situation and was wondering if anyone here might have some suggestions on how to handle it. I had a job offer that I accepted and was excited for at a large company. It would have been my first real job in industry since graduating (my current position is a research job at a university). It took about a month from getting the verbal offer to get the official written offer from HR, successfully complete the background check and sign all the paperwork. Once that was completed, I gave my notice at my current position and decided on a start date for my new job with the manager of the team I would be joining. Just yesterday, I received a call that my offer had been rescinded because the team I was joining no longer had approval to hire anyone. From talking to a friend at the company, it seems they completed a Reduction in Force yesterday and my offer was likely affected by that.
    This puts me in a tough position, as I am halfway through my notice period already, and I do not think I can or should try to stay at my current job – my boss and I do not have a good relationship, he took my notice poorly and the job has taken a toll on my mental health. I have some leads to follow up on other positions and the company told me they would circulate my resume to other teams to try and find me a position, but the type of job I’m looking for is a technical position where there is fierce competition in my area for entry level positions, so it may take a while to find a new job. I also live in a high cost area where I’m the breadwinner since my husband is in graduate school. Would it be worth it to try to get some compensation from the company since my offer was pulled not through any fault of my own and it’s likely I will be unemployed for some amount of time? Is there anything else I should consider doing, or is the most I can do is keep searching for another job and be very wary of taking another job with this company if they do find me a different position?

    2. LaDeeDa*

      OMG! I am so sorry that happened to you. In some states that will qualify you for unemployment, so call the unemployment office- you have an offer letter, you have your signed and accepted letter and you have proof they rescinded your offer.
      I had this happen to me but thankfully it was the day before I was giving my notice. Good luck, that really sucks!

    3. LaDeeDa*

      Also, look at your offer letter, because it will tell you at what point in the process they can legally rescind their offer, usually legally it can only be if something comes up in the background check or drug testing.

      1. Observer*

        That’s actually not true for most private employers in at-will states.

        Not that it’s a decent thing to do….

    4. qvaken*

      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this! My jaw dropped when I got to the part where they rescinded the offer.

      Alison answered similar questions under the titles “company offered me a job, then yanked the offer, then re-listed the position” and “my job offer was revoked before I started — and after I quit my job”, if you want to look them up.

  101. Midlife Tattoos*

    I was thinking about the letter yesterday about the person who has a chronic illness and its impact on work/team.

    I too have a chronic illness for which I’m on intermittent FMLA. I’m in a senior management role and have been for a few years. I want to take the next step and be promoted to a senior director (I’m very qualified), but in a conversation about it with my boss, she mentioned that it would be difficult for me to be a director because I can be out 1-2 per month, and sometimes have to work from home. She said that directors need to be available every day and that being out so often would hold me back.

    Obviously this is upsetting to me. I can’t control the illness (I’m under regular treatment and this is my baseline) and I don’t think it’s fair that having approved FMLA absences should count against me. I know that legally they’re not supposed to make any decisions around salary, promotions, or reviews based on FMLA status.

    My first question is: do you think she has a point? Can you be a successful senior leader when you have more absences than others?

    Speaking legally, I’ve already talked to my boss about the legal rules around FMLA and that we could get ourselves into trouble by using that information to make decisions. But I’m not sure how to speak with her about myself. We have a very good relationship but I don’t know if pushing back on this would cause more problems.

    Thoughts? Advice?

    1. irene adler*

      Why do directors “need to be available every day”? I think this needs to be explained-in detail. Dept members couldn’t email/call you on the days you are not in office?

      How does being out 1-2 days per month going to “hold you back”? This too, needs to be qualified. If director “needs to be available every day” then your being out would hold the dept back-right?

      I’m confused.

      The measure of a good director is how long the dept can function effectively without the director being present to run things.

      Not saying that a director is not necessary. They are. If the dept cannot function without the daily input of the director, then clearly the dept members need to be better trained -or the processes need to be reviewed and upgraded- to operate without director’s instant interaction.

      1. Reba*

        Yeah, I think you should read it as “Directors need to be available *in your company* or *under your boss*”

        My experience has been that the higher up someone is, the less they are at their desk!

          1. angier*

            but that doesnt mean the director hasnt been working or hasnt been required by other in the office?

      2. Midlife Tattoos*

        Thank you – you articulated something for me, that the whole point of being high up is that the people under you are high performers and independent workers, so you can focus on big-picture things like business direction. I don’t micromanage and I can’t imagine why I would need to have daily face-to-face contact with my management team.

    2. Jess*

      I think she has a point AND I think it depends on the specific position whether the actual absences would be a dealbreaker or the prejudice would be.

      She’s given you one clear piece of information — directors need to be available every day. Can you do that? I had a boss who took a satellite phone with him on an international cruise vacation. Even though he could delegate most things, there was always a chance that something unexpected would arise where he would be needed to make a decision that couldn’t be delegated. Can you be available for something like that when you are out on FMLA? Would the director jobs at your company require that, or are there ways to delegate or defer decisions that are truly workable?

      I had another manager I worked closely with who was part-time for a while. When she was out and I had questions, I was stuck. It was manageable, but far from ideal, and it would have worked better if someone full-time was managing and she was an individual contributor. Is that a situation that might come up at your company as a director, and if so, can you think of ways to mitigate it?

      There’s an optics issue as well, if you are out a lot. It’s a legitimate concern that employees may slack off if they see someone in a high up position that they perceive as slacking off. So I think being more forthcoming than the law requires is your friend here. If you can lead by being upfront about having a health condition and FMLA (no oversharing needed), and be supportive of a healthy culture for *everyone* to take care of their health and well-being, then you can turn that into a strength.

      Anyway, those are a few thoughts. Figure out what things would legitimately be an issue/challenge, figure out how you’d accommodate for that, do an honest assessment of whether you think the position would be a good fit if those things were in place, and then decide if you want to make the case and go for it.

      1. Midlife Tattoos*

        I’m not sure if you’ll see this, Jess, but I want you to know I’ve copied and pasted into a document so I can review and honestly answer the questions you pose. This is extremely helpful!

  102. CS Rep By Day, Writer By Night*

    Welp, the company that acquired our facility is closing it in August. It sucks but at least I have a timeframe to work with, and luckily the skill set for a job that can be done remotely (this company has a lot of remote employees, thank God). Next week we have 1:1’s with HR to discuss how we can move forward, and I’m hoping that this might be my chance to move into a true Analyst position and get out of Customer Service for good. I would really like to stay with this company, as they pay well and have incredible employee benefits (4 weeks of PTO to start with), and if I could have a job where I don’t have to drive in the winter it would literally be my dream job. So a lot of chaos and change (which I’m not the best with), but at least there’s the possibility of a light at the end of the tunnel.

  103. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    I was rereading the notorious letters about Michelle who drastically changed her appearance throughout the day, and it made me wonder–how much change is too much? I’ll often come in to work with my long-ish hair in a bun (otherwise it gets tangly and frizzy on the commute) but sometimes in the middle of the day I’ll want to take it down, once I know it’ll stay reasonably smooth for the rest of the day

    1. Not All*

      When I had long hair, it was so heavy it went up & down multiple times during the day. Pretty much every woman I work with who has long, thick hair changes whether it’s up/down/ponytail/etc throughout the day and I’ve never heard anyone comment on it. (Well, once when someone who ALWAYS wears her hair in a tight bun wore it down and we all noticed it’s curly for the first time. And mostly those were all “I’m so jealous of your curls!” comments)

      Hmmm…now I need to go ask my male friends/coworkers if they even notice women do this….

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        I actually knew someone that made a comment about his office’s receptionist doing this. It annoyed him. I was like “whatever” because I do to it too. As do a few others around me. No one has ever said a thing to me except in a few situations where it was “Wait wasn’t your hair in a braid earlier?” And that’s because sometimes I’ll come to work in a really nice braid but will end up getting too stressed to keep it.

    2. AliceBD*

      I would say that is totally fine. Putting your hair up or down in a bun/ponytail/braid is totally different from drastically changing length or color.

    3. No Tribble At All*

      Putting up or taking your hair down in the middle of the day is fine, don’t worry.

    4. anon24*

      Not really answering your question, but it made me think of a funny story.

      I worked at a car wash for a bit as a teenager. We were short staffed one morning and so even though I was supposed to just be drying the washed cars I was washing some of them as well. I was wearing a hoodie and had my long hair down when I took one guys payment and washed his car. The day was getting warm so as his car was going through the wash I took off my hoodie and tied my hair in a bun. I start drying his car and he looks at me, does a double take and asks if I had a sister.

  104. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

    Hey Philadelphia friends, I’m looking for entry level jobs in the nonprofit sector. Just generally speaking, do you think asking for 30-35k is reasonable? I know every place is different and a lot depends on the budget, but I wondered if anyone has experience in this particular region/field and wanted to weigh in. I’m also planning to look into all of Alison’s advice re: salary research.

    1. Minerva McGonagall*

      In my experience that generally seems to be the going salary for entry level in non-profit in the Philly area.

    2. MsM*

      Not only is that totally reasonable for entry-level, I would be wary of places that try to convince you it’s not.

    3. magnusarchivist*

      that’s what I made at an entry level job that required an MLIS, but that was also about 10 years ago. I could see jobs that don’t require an advanced degree paying a little less, honestly.

  105. Anon for This*

    I just want to thank everyone who offered me advice and internet hugs last week in regards to my question about being emotionally exhausted at work due to my husband’s new sobriety. I took some time off this week, and things are still definitely rough, but I’m feeling less weepy, and I’m hanging in there!

  106. EMW*

    Does anyone have experience transitioning from a publicly traded company to a private one? I’m currently interviewing for a position that would be part of a business that is being sold from a fortune 100 company to a private equity firm. It does look like they are not just selling the business off for parts. The overall atmosphere seems positive for the employees affected (I asked around and got the opinion of someone not involved with this hiring process). The position I’m being hired in for is to populate one of the corporate teams since this was a position that supported the entire company, and after the split they will need someone dedicated to it for the new company.

  107. Teapot Librarian*

    Sigh, my poor management of Hoarder has come to bite me in the butt–one of my good employees is very resentful that Hoarder gets “special treatment” (my words, not hers) because it’s just easier than fighting him on everything. I 100% understand where she’s coming from. I need to get about 3000 times better at holding my ground with Hoarder. I’m very disappointed in myself today.

  108. Starchild*

    Hello!
    I’m considering a move to an Executive Assistant role. My concern though is this will limit my future to ONLY administrative assistant type roles.
    What are yall thoughts?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve never done an Executive Assistant role, but I once moved from an assistant director position to a receptionist position, and I was able to move back up to directorship later (in a different area). I wouldn’t say you always have the freedom to bust out of a particular type of role, but you won’t be 100% trapped… maybe 70% trapped?

      1. Starchild*

        I am obtaining a Masters in Higher Education Administration and current work in an academic department. The move is to assist a Dean.

        1. MaureenC*

          Maybe talk to other EAs at your university and ask about it? I think it depends on the university and possibly also on the particular Dean (are they heavily involved in admin, or do they prefer teaching/research and will leave most of the cat-herding to you? I suppose the “are they heavily involved in admin” is also a general question about how the other deans and EAs at the school divide up labor.) And is there a separate department/school administrator position?

        2. Dee-Nice*

          I work at a university where lots of admins get that degree, and at least in this environment, it’s pretty easy to move to a different role within the university once you have the degree. It might be harder to transition out of an assistant type role if you wanted to leave the university before you’d transferred internally and had some time in a new position under your belt.

    3. ChachkisGalore*

      Oh been there. In that I fell into administative work and had a fairly difficult time climbing my way out. However! I definitely would not say it’s impossible.

      I found it very difficult to be directly hired from an admin role into a non-admin role (though I’ll explain how I did in a sec), so my personal opinion or advice is to try to set yourself up somewhere where you can make that move internally via a promotion/transfer. However! Do your research. In-depth research. There are some companies that will never, ever promote you out of an admin role. They will never admit that, and they might even have a single shining star that they’ll point to “oh and Karen in marketing worked her way from Receptionist to Director so we love to promote from within”. Do not believe their words alone. Look for multiple examples of admins being promoted. Also pay very close attention to how they treat you and speak to you. Do they seem to speak about the admin role as a very distinct, separate role. Or does it sound like the role is very well integrated into the team or dept. Also pay attention to how they speak to you to about the business itself (or function of the department, etc.). Do they gloss over things because they assume you don’t or can’t understand the nature or specifics or the work. Basically do they think you’re only capable of answering phones or booking meetings or submitting expenses, but don’t actually understand the type of work a Dean does?

      Those are all things I wish I had looked for. Eventually I was able to make the jump to a non-admin role at an outside company by playing up every single non-admin (dept. Specific) task I learned how to do or took on (I was very lucky in that I had one boss who really supported me and slipped me extra work/projects just to help me beef up my resume) – to basically make it look like I was doing the job of a non-admin and was really only an admin in title.

      I wouldn’t say don’t do it. Just go into it with open eyes. You also might have better luck traction in making the jump if you have a natural “divinding” line of finishing up a master’s. It would make a lot of sense to be making a career change at that point.

  109. Genervt*

    I was fairly recently promoted at work, and as part of that promotion I am now supervising an intern and an entry-level employee. The entry-level employee was a past intern, and based on past feedback we moved them into a full-time position. Now we’re seeing some pretty serious performance issues including what seems to be a lack of comprehension. This employee also hasn’t taken advantage of training opportunities that have been offered, despite being eager to learn, often instead doing the trainings by themself. This is this employee’s first office job, and we expected a learning curve around some aspects of that, but they just aren’t working at the level we need. And when I make assignments I try to write clear, concise, but descriptive emails outlining what I want from an assignment, and I’m often still getting questions and they don’t seem to understand things the first time around (and these aren’t technical or complicated assignments – think make a PPT using this contract as an outline for the content, and use the vendor’s website to find the content). I also found out they’d provided incorrect information to outside people on another project they were involved in. They were given an opportunity to practice before talking to outside people and they didn’t take it. A lot of this has only come to our attention very recently.

    Now my supervisor wants me to start documenting even more than I do now, talk to HR about coaching/potentially a PIP, and if we don’t see some serious changes we may let this person go. I’d worked with them when they were an intern, and they did OK as an intern, not great, but I had real reservations about their ability to function in this new role. Unfortunately I wasn’t given an opportunity to provide this feedback before they were hired. Now I’m a supervisor for the first time and am having to deal with this. I feel fairly well prepared due to reading this site for years, but I can’t help but feel frustrated that I wouldn’t be in this position had I been able to give feedback before they were hired. And I’m frustrated that my first employee may end up being let go if we can’t really course correct.

    I’ve already had several conversations with my employee about how it’s not acceptable to miss a deadline, how they need to be more communicative if they see issues, or how it’s not acceptable to tell me they can’t find vendor information that I am able to find with one quick Google search. I’m clear with communication and don’t use softening language. This all just makes me feel really sad. Has anyone else gone through anything similar? I’d love any input others might have around this.

    1. Midlife Tattoos*

      (I’m going with male pronouns, I hope that’s okay)

      With all the coaching and clear direction about what you need from him, it sounds like the next conversation is putting him on notice. This is the big downside to not having input into hiring (as you know) but perhaps going forward you’ll have that opportunity as the direct manager.

      Have you made it clear that his inability to master things and use his own initiative to learn things will jeopardize his job? It might not be obvious to him that these kinds of things are deal-breakers, because he doesn’t have enough experience in the real working world.

      I currently have an employee on a PIP for the exact reasons you describe, the difference being that I myself hired her. I was trying to give her a leg up, but instead of taking advantage of the opportunity, she has squandered it despite ongoing coaching. Now that she’s on a PIP, she’s really been working harder at learning. I gave her a specific list of what she needs to be able to demonstrate she knows in order to get off the PIP. So all of that is to say that maybe this person will surprise you if you go the PIP direction.

      1. Genervt*

        Male pronouns are totally fine.

        My own supervisor is coaching me through this. They want me to have a serious conversation with my employee next week about some of the things that have come to light, about how they need to raise the bar (and what that would look like), and that we feel this person is struggling to find a balance in their new position. As I said before, I’ve clearly flagged things that have been issues, but I think you’re right that I need to underscore the inability to master things will jeopardize their job. PIP will be the next step but we’re not quite there yet.

        I’m also meeting with HR next week to discuss coaching and a PIP, and what that means and the impact it would have. I met with a director today who manages a team and is also part of our organizational structure. She’d suggested doing a competency assessment based off of the job description, which I think is a great idea, and I’m going to start working on this. Then that can feed into the PIP and/or coaching and can help define more clearly what goals should be targeted.

        Thanks for the reply.

        1. Midlife Tattoos*

          Doing a competency assessment based on the job description is the perfect way to go! I actually broke it down into the various items and made a chart for each where I indicated “Lacking”, “Needs to improve”, “Has basics”, “Proficient”. Then for the items for the first two, I gave a specific thing they had to demonstrate proficiency on. I hope this helps!

            1. valentine*

              I’m not sure you’ve been direct because the group training and practice were optional, yet you’re disappointed/concerned and, with the practice, you know now it was vital to success. How is he to know you don’t think he’s good enough to train solo or how much you wanted him to practice? Ask where he looked for the vendor site. Get into details. What does he think Googling or an Internet search is? You may have to ask questions that feel like you’re insulting his intelligence. (I worked with someone who, it turned out, didn’t know what “run a search” meant and was clicking random folders and looking around. Had they been thorough, that would’ve been fine, but the randomness was like planning to fail.)

              Did you not have anyone to give the feedback when the problem person was an intern or did nobody ask? Make sure your colleagues know you welcome feedback on your intern. Be the person for them that no one was for you. Take a closer look at current intern and get them on the right path. Take care they’re not neglected while you deal with this.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      Yikes! That is a tough spot.

      So I would have some direct feedback conversations—
      “this was the direction/expectation, tell me how you interpreted this– the direction/expectation.”
      Let them tell you where the gap was/is. Then show them this is what you asked- this is what you got. then ask “why do you think this is a problem/not what was expected?” Again, letting them tell you what is wrong– it may be that they think it is all fine.. if you don’t know what their perception of the problem/issue is, you can’t address it. “before talking to outside people, you must present to (whoever) first.” <– that isn't an option!!
      I hope this helps!
      I would also ask "at what point in the timeline did you know you weren't going to make the deadline?" Then " at what point after that did you tell anyone?" "when do you think you should have let someone know you were going to miss the deadline?"
      This all helps you help them in some critical thinking areas, it also helps you know where they don't know what to do. Once you know the answers you can set some guidelines– "I am going to give you the project/expectations, and then 2 days later we are going to meet, you need to come to that meeting with any clarifying questions you have. I'll answer those questions, or direct you to where/who you can get those answers from." "

  110. Sylvia*

    Tip-Sharing — what are your thoughts?

    I have had three family members and a family friend work in restaurants that practice “tip-sharing”. That is, all tips are collected by the management and supposedly disbursed equally to waitstaff and sometimes kitchen staff in their paychecks. All of my family/friends report that they rarely saw any tips beyond an occasional extra $2-3 dollars in their two-week paycheck and sometimes not even then. (They were all paid at least hourly minimum wage.) None of the restaurants made the daily tip totals and disbursements available for the employees to review.

    This seems sketchy to me. Has anyone worked in a restaurant where tip-sharing was equitable and effective?

    1. Où est la bibliothèque?*

      Sketchy, yes. But it’s not clear if the people you know are waitstaff or not–if there are people at the restaurants who are paid tipped wage and not standard minimum wage, they’re really the only people who can push back on the pooled tips.

      1. Sylvia*

        My three family members were servers that made minimum wage rather than the lower server wage. The family friend was a dishwasher and later a cook who worked for a restaurant which split tips between all kitchen employees. All four of them were at different restaurants but had similar experiences with tip-sharing.

    2. foolofgrace*

      Yes, in a swanky private club. Employees got “shares”according to their position and tenure. The weekly share rate (it varied from week to week, naturally) was announced at a meeting of all employees and it was always pretty good. If it were me, I’d be looking to change places of employment. $2-$3? Are you kidding me? I’ve waitressed at regular restaurants and the tip money came up to waaaaay more than that. We always tipped out busboy and sometimes bartender but not kitchen staff — they make at least minimum wage and often more.

      1. Sylvia*

        Yeah, that’s how it worked when I was a waitress back in the 1990’s. Even then, if I would have split a one bad day of tips between everyone at work for that day we would have each made at least $5.

    3. Enough*

      Tip sharing can be illegal. I believe there are labor laws that address how to handle tips.

    4. Coverage Associate*

      My sibling works at a large coffee chain. Their tip sharing seems really fair. It’s based on hours worked that week, so people who work less busy shifts still get the same amount. I actually use it as an analogy in my coverage work. But I don’t know if it’s 100% legal.

    5. KatieKate*

      I worked as a hostess and got tipped out because I ran food/drinks and occasionally made drinks if we were swamped, but the servers/bartenders tipped myself and the bus/kitchen staff out themselves. And I got WAY more than $3 each day I worked! Something is wrong here

    6. Wishing You Well*

      As a patron, I often put a cash tip directly in the hand of my server. I don’t leave it on the table. This prevents disappearing tips from whatever cause. In my area, 20% is considered customary and expected. I tip at least this amount, unless there’s a problem. It’s very rare that there’s a problem.
      And, yeah, what you describe sounds very sketchy.

  111. Rachel*

    Sorry if this has been covered recently – any advice for dealing with job searching while also struggling with anxiety and low self-worth? I’m currently trying to find a new job, relocate, possibly change fields slightly, and also deal with the two-body problem of job searching with my spouse. All of this is feeling overwhelming. More often than not, when I try to search for positions or write a cover letter, I just end up beating myself up for not being good enough and dissolve into tears. Needless to say, this does not make for a very efficient or successful job search. I appreciate any thoughts or tips – thanks AAM commenters!

    1. Rainy days*

      Ugh, I struggle with this too. My guess is that your spouse thinks you’re amazing though so maybe ask him/ her to brainstorm for the cover letter with you.

    2. BugSwallowersAnonymous*

      My best tips are to take frequent breaks and do cover-letter writing or other stressful tasks in short bursts, plan to do stuff you enjoy right after those writing sessions, and maybe write your cover letter like you’re writing a recommendation for a good friend if you’re having trouble finding nice things to say about yourself. Best of luck, this so hard. I hope you both find positions soon.

    3. Not Today Satan*

      You know all of your weaknesses. You know that the exciting bullet points related to your desired new field are only a portion of your story. You know all of the strikes against you. But they don’t. They only know what’s on your resume and what you present during the interview. I think you just have to get at peace with sort of BSing and acting confident. Think about all the incompetent, unprofessional people out there with great jobs. If them, why not you? If anything, I think people with imposter syndrome tend to be higher performers because they’re more self reflective. (Not that I think imposter syndrome is a good thing to have–it’s not. But I do think overall they’re better workers.) You can do this!!

      Also, get/tailor interview clothes that make you feel confident.

    4. frockbot*

      Oh, this is so tough! I’m sorry your jerkbrain is being, well, such a jerk. One thing that helps me is comparing the responsibilities of a new position to my current responsibilities. I will literally go through a posting or description and make a list of all the similarities I find, line by line. (This is easier if there’s a position description included with the position, and I know there isn’t always.) So like, the job posting says this position has to manage spreadsheets; I currently manage spreadsheets, or a database, or I manage the company files and I can argue that that requires similar skills. Mapping out those areas of overlap helps me BELIEVE that I would be Great At This Job, because now I have the evidence to back that up. (And then I immediately start writing my cover letter, because otherwise I’ll lose that steam!)

  112. A.N. O'Nyme*

    So earlier this week I read an article on how Brussels Airport is doing a test project in which people on the autism spectrum do the X-ray baggage checks, because their characteristics (such as high attention to detail and being very good at concentrating) are also the exact characteristics for a good screener. So, out of curiosity: people on the spectrum, how has being on the spectrum helped you in your job? And, while we’re at it, what could neurotypicals do to make things easier for you to do your job? At Brussels Airport, for example, the screeners have a quiet workspace separate from the main buzz of the busy airport so they don’t get overwhelmed.

    1. Weegie*

      Details! Very, very good at details. And also knowing absolutely everything about my field of work, thus being the go-to person/expert. Reliability.

      What could make life easier? No open offices: they’re a total nightmare. Or at least a ‘quiet office’ where all the introverts and neurodivergents can work in peace. Preferably with low lighting.

    2. only acting normal*

      “Systemising” makes me good at data analysis: I can see the patterns or spot the oddities easily, to a degree that makes NTs comment in astonishment. Also makes me good at problem structring – breaking down a big old mess into manageable parts.
      To help: don’t expect me to remember complicated verbal information, write it down or it didn’t happen (if you spend 30 minutes talking on a train of thought around a complex problem, then expect me to execute the exact analysis you had in mind, you will be sorely disappointed).
      Give me a turn to speak in group meetings, don’t talk over me or butt in to “rescue” me if I seem to hesitate. I have an auditory processing delay, so I’m a half-beat behind the conversation at all times. *

      *Just this week found some research that found narrow physical pathways in the sound processing parts of the brain in autistic patients – the sound hits our ear at the same time but we don’t “hear” it until a measurable time later than NTs.

  113. Rainy days*

    The non-profit I work for hosts regular site visits from our funders. Coincidentally, two different organizations hired the same consultant to do three site visits over a year. The first time, last summer with Funder 1, the guy was lovely and very complimentary of our programming. This week he visited with Funder 2. In a meeting with one of our staf members, he apparently asked several times whether certain clients of ours were “American American”, which the staff member understood in context to mean “white”, but he pretended not to understand and simply affirmed that they were American. When he didn’t volunteer their race, the consultant asked for the client names, which I would guess would be so he could make assumptions about their ethnic background. (FYIW this consultant is himself an immigrant and not white). I and the staff member found this language very offensive as it implies that people of an immigrant background are not real Americans. I would like to say something to Funder 2 where I have good relationships with the staff so that he could be coached to rethink his language and assumptions, but the problem is that he is already assigned to evaluate our programming again with Funder 1 in a few months and I don’t want to damage our relationship. Getting him reassigned from the Funder 1 visit would be a Huge Deal that would ultimately reflect poorly on us in the eyes of Funder 1. Anyone have any thoughts on what I should / could do?

    1. MsM*

      What makes you think Funder 1 would be upset rather than grateful you saved them from reputational embarassment if this guy can’t find a better way to handle these issues?

    2. Kathenus*

      I understand that it’s awkward and difficult, but we’re at a point in our society where we all need to take opportunities when we can to stand up to this type of behavior. Since I know it’s easy to armchair quarterback someone else’s situation, I’m trying to think of a situation in my work or life like this and how I’d at least like to handle it. What I’m landing on for me, is something like this to the consultant – “you probably don’t realize it but the phrasing of your questions are coming across as if you are trying to determine what race the clients are, which wouldn’t be appropriate. Please don’t ask questions like this” This way you’re giving them an out that it’s unintentional (and maybe it is), but being clear that it’s not OK and to stop. Best of luck, tough situation.

      1. MaureenC*

        Can I give a slight alteration?

        “I’m sure you don’t mean it that way, but it almost sounds like you’re asking if they’re white.”

  114. sammy_two*

    How do you support a co-worker who you are friends with who is very much struggling with their job and will likely be fired in the next couple of months (for valid reasons)?

    1. irene adler*

      I’d say- just be there to listen to them.
      Don’t be quick to give advice.

      Ask if they’d like to hear suggestions on how to better tackle a specific job task. If they don’t, then drop it.

      Hard to watch this happen to a friend.

    2. Art3mis*

      I had a coworker like this. At first I tried to help her, but it became obvious that she was just severely lacking in the necessary skills needed to do the job. I was just supportive of her as much as I could be and when she finally decided to leave on her own I supported her in that too and sent her job postings.

    3. Former Retail Manager*

      Does your co-worker know she is likely to be fired and does she know that you know she is struggling? If she doesn’t know she may be fired but knows you know she’s struggling, you may want to mention that while she is making efforts to improve, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to start looking elsewhere “just in case.” One never knows, right? Perhaps point her to this site, offer to look over/revise her resume using Alison’s great tips, mock interviews if she hasn’t interviewed in a while, send her job postings you think she might be a good fit for and just generally be supportive.

  115. SinSA*

    I’ve been job-hunting for a little over a month, and I’m not getting very far. I’m also trying to take the next step up in my career. It is frustrating (and others say it hasn’t been that long and I need to be patient) for a couple of reasons —

    1. I wish companies would just post what their salary range is from the beginning. That way, I know whether or not I want to spend the next couple of hours filling out their paperwork and formatting my resume and cover letter to that position. I’ve done that twice now where the salary is vastly different than what I’d expect to be earning for that role. (Like $30-$40K less than I make currently).

    2. I’ve had recruiters reach out to me and tell me they have these *great jobs* — they’ll send me the description, I’ll fill out their paperwork and send them my resume, and they’ll say they need to meet me in person. Fine, okay, I’ll take off work to go and meet with you. But then the meeting consists of talking about my resume and career goals (which could easily be done over email or via a conference call).

    One agency said the position they called me for was “on hold” (which, they knew this before calling me in to meet with them) and the other one that I just went to this week wanted me to meet with the person handling the role itself (after talking about my resume/career goals which we *already talked about over email AND over the phone*) but that person was on the phone, and couldn’t meet with me. WHY do people think that it’s acceptable to waste time like that? I’d never do that to someone and it’s turning me off from wanting to deal with recruiters! Is it fair to say to the next recruiter that unless they are going to speak to me specifically about the position at hand, I’d prefer to discuss my career/resume over the phone, or over email as I don’t like having to come up with these mystery doctor appointments?

    Luckily for now my position at my firm is safe, but there has been a lot of turnover and morale here is less than zero. I am not at a panic-get-me-out place as of yet, so luckily I can wait until the right job comes along. It’s a tough place to be right now. But I’m starting to worry!

    1. irene adler*

      Been there, done that.
      re: recruiters
      Unless they have a specific position for you, don’t agree to meet them or discuss career goals. If they had an actual open position and you fit the bill, they will seek you out. And they will work with you to fill the job.

      I took the bait twice and met with a recruiter. Complete waste of time. Now, I get calls periodically from “New Recruiter, who is now handling the Industry-Specific positions that Former Recruiter once did. Call me and we can schedule a time to talk about what you are interested in doing. I’m sure we can find something for you.” Nah. I think the new-bees get brownie points for all the contacts they make during the day. So I get the calls. I just explain that I don’t want to waste their time, so unless they have an actual position to discuss, I won’t take up their time. The I say good-bye.

      Have you sought out professional organizations in your industry? That’s a good source of job leads, and good recruiters who specialize in your industry. And, you can find out about salary levels too. Maybe not exact figures but folks will know who pays well and who doesn’t and the approx. pay rates for the job titles.

      1. SinSA*

        Both recruiters said they had specific positions for me and needed to meet with me. But it seems as though they really did not need to meet with me at all.

        I work in the legal industry, and I guess I’ve never considered joining a professional organization or networking — the organizations cost money (my firm refuses to pay for it) and they are expensive, but maybe? I don’t feel like my salary requirements are unreasonable at all.

        I’m also looking for some job-related advice dealing with some other staffers here, but I think that’ll be a next Friday question — I’ve written in about one of them already to AAM (and gotten answered) — they’ve just become more insufferable and entitled and I have become less able to tolerate it. I guess it’s along the lines of the BEC syndrome (thank you for introducing me to that term!)

  116. Name (Required)*

    Is there a secret to dealing with the physical act of having two cell phones – a personal phone and a work phone?
    I just received my first work phone and feel a a bit silly. I’m a guy without a purse and I feel like my only choice is to keep one in my front shirt pocket.

    How do you carry around two phones?

    3. Kathenus*

      Until I was recently able to downsize back to one, I had my personal cell phone forward to my work cell so that I only had to carry one at work. The downside to this is that calls can forward but not texts. If you only do this during the day and respond to personal texts at the end of the day when you switch it off, it might work for you to be able to only carry the one during the workday. A lot depends on how much you need to use your work phone out of business hours. It’s a pain, I know.

  117. automaticdoor*

    I noticed that one of the suggested links was the wife whose husband didn’t want her to take a trip to Vegas. Did we ever get an update on how that turned out? I searched but couldn’t find anything. Holy shit, that was the red-flaggiest post, complete with comments from the husband!! I just hope she’s doing okay.

    1. Friday*

      OMG I know nobody looks at the open thread this far into the next week but I didn’t know the husband replied! And of course, not good. The wife seemed happy/dressed nice/fixed her hair/went to a cheesy beefcake show/doesn’t travel much and therefore must be locked away. Too bad he waited so late to reply; most everyone moved on by then.

      Husband comments! https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/my-husband-doesnt-want-me-to-go-on-a-business-trip-to-vegas.html#comment-1674620

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/my-husband-doesnt-want-me-to-go-on-a-business-trip-to-vegas.html#comment-1670088

      https://www.askamanager.org/2017/09/my-husband-doesnt-want-me-to-go-on-a-business-trip-to-vegas.html#comment-1670095

  118. Jane*

    What suggestions do you have for staying motivated at work when your job has changed into something less interesting? The interesting and challenging bits of my job are slowly being taken away in restructurings, leaving me with the easy routine work.

    (I am looking to move elsewhere, but have a very specialist job and there are no vacancies anywhere – just three in the entire country, and in a parallel specialism rather than my exact field.)

  119. MacHale*

    Question for designers/artists employed full time: Does your company pay for your software, and does this impact your freelance opportunities?

    After a year+ my company is finally considering paying for the Adobe CC for the myself and the other three designers on my advertising team. Until now we’ve used our personal laptops/desktops and have been using our personal Adobe accounts. (Our company doesn’t have a central office and we wfh 3/5 days).

    The issue is that they don’t want to reimburse us for our current accounts, they want us to cancel our personal accounts and move to the company specific ones. I wouldn’t mind this except our company contracts specifically say anything “created with company resources” belongs to the company, which my fellow designers and I worry would impact the personal work/freelance that we have to do to supplement our incomes outside of work hours. Are we being worrywarts or should we refuse the company accounts?

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I wouldn’t refuse the company accounts. What I would refuse is the directive to cancel my personal account. Whether you maintain a personal account for work that’s unrelated to your employer should be none of their business, unless they are giving you some kind of compensation in exchange for an agreement on your part to do no outside work.

  120. Anon here yet again*

    There’s one male coworker that I have to deal with sometimes who is known for being moody and difficult to work with. How do you handle people like this? He’s young and more interested in socializing and flirting than with working. He’s given me attitude since I started, even though I have been nothing but professional towards him. (It scares me because he acts as if I’m to blame for something.)

    1. valentine*

      You are harshing the mellow of his use of the workplace as a pickup joint.

      Do you mean properly scared, like you think he’d sabotage you or the like? If there’s nothing concrete you can report him on, do you trust your manager to coach you? Although, this is a management problem. People known for being jerks are being subsidized.

  121. Deryn*

    Currently sitting two cubes down from my coworker who snorts (big, long, wet, gross snorts) continuously. This morning I took a glance at the clock – in the span of five minutes, he gave us a record breaking THIRTEEN SNORTS.

    (This has been going on for the two years he’s worked here. And yes, I’ve tried most of Allison’s typical suggestions for dealing with coworkers who make annoying sounds. I’ve just got to deal with it at this point. Pray for me.)

    1. MeMeMe*

      Ugghhh, my stomach just flipped in empathy with you. That sound makes me want to crawl out of my skin when I hear it once, let alone two years???!! I sincerely bow down to your fortitude.

      1. Deryn*

        It’s literally so loud that other people in our office have gone to our boss about it (which, as awful as the snorting is, I think it’s pretty petty for them to go to her without even talking to him first). It’s been a while since I last broached the subject with him, though… as allergy season is coming up it might be time for another (futile) round…

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I am both skeeved out by this noise and an allergy sufferer who gets post-nasal drip so I empathize. I also know how to fix it (an oral antihistamine, an anithistamine nasal spray, and an oral decongestant) but you’d have to be a Tact Ninja to suggest that in a way that’s respectful of someone else’s medical condition at work.

      1. Deryn*

        I have definitely tried the casual, “Oh hey, I have some Zyrtec in my purse, do you need some?” and a coworker has done the, “Sounds like you need to blow your nose – here’s a tissue,” to no avail (he said allergy medicine doesn’t work and that he “can’t” blow his nose). Due to how often he does it and the regularity of it, I’ve suspected for while that it might be more of a tic than any sort of need to actually clear his airways, and if that’s the case, then I REALLY don’t have a way to tactfully address it.

    4. Grace Less*

      Oh, my sympathies. #BTDT

      In my office, someone complained to HR. HR met with the “noisy” employee and reported back that it was a medical condition, and nothing would change. They did give the complainer the option of relocating, but the desk offered was undesirable to the complainer, so they stayed.

      BUT, they did not stay quietly. Every time a snort occurred, a desk drawer was slammed or a stapler knocked against a desk, or a can of compressed air released. It went on for nearly a year, and the tension was unbearable for all in the vicinity. Finally, a restructuring moved the snorter and the complainer into different wings. The snorting is much more bearable without anticipating a retaliatory sound.

      1. Deryn*

        I have honestly daydreamed about setting up some sort of aversive stimulus to condition it out of him. Alas. It’s so loud that it does often trigger a sort of startle response in me, so I have legitimately dropped things or jumped and knocked things over, completely unintentionally.

  122. Emily Elizabeth*

    Happy Friday everybody! I have a question regarding thank-you follow-ups after an interview: what should you do when an interviewer beats you to it? I had two first interviews in the past two weeks, and within a few hours after each interview (in which I had not yet had a chance to send a follow-up), I received an email thanking me for coming in and inviting me to the next round of interviews. In that case, should I still expand upon our first interview in a response, as Alison typically suggests in a thanks email? Or do I just move forward with setting up the logistics for the second interview? Thanks!

    1. Louisa*

      I would thank in your response and give the kind of details about why you’re a good fit, while also setting up the logistics for the next interview.

  123. qwertyuiop*

    Grandboss loves to blame my coworker and I whenever something goes wrong. Someone moved a file to a different folder? Qwerty and “Jane” did it. Someone deleted something out of Access? Qwerty and Jane! Of course, IT finds out who really did it, but why us? Why are we the scapegoats? It’s way past due to leave this job, but how do I hang in here until I can get out?

    *Our boss defends us and tells Grandboss that it isn’t us, but there’s only so much one can do.

  124. Leslie Knope*

    I’m the administrative manager at a start-up and have been at my new job for about four months now. There are about 2 dozen employees at my company, and most of them are young men (in their 20’s and 30’s). I have found myself cleaning up after others a lot – this applies to the kitchen/common area, our office supply area and our storage closet. I was on vacation for a week and returned to find everything out of order and very messy, and it took me about half an hour to put everything back in its place and make our office presentable again.

    I would like to address this but am not sure the most tactful way to do so. I don’t want to leave up notes that may appear to be passive aggressive. I don’t think it’s just one person who is messy, so I can’t address it individually. Is it appropriate to send an email to the entire staff reminding them to please be mindful of these shared areas and to clean up when they are done?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      It’s not passive-aggressive to send a mass e-mail or call a meeting or post messages that say “please clean up, put things away, and keep things neat, thanks.” It would be 100% appropriate to bring this deficiency to everybody’s attention and ask them to take more care.

    2. Susan K*

      It’s not entirely clear from your post: is it actually your job to keep the place clean/neat/presentable? Because if not, don’t keep cleaning up after them, or it probably will become your job. Actually, even if it is your job, you should probably hold back a little, because if they get used to you cleaning up after them, they will keep on leaving messes.

      Anyway, if it is your job to keep the place clean, it is appropriate for you to send out a polite e-mail reminding them to keep the shared areas clean. If it’s not your job, you might not want to be the one to send out the e-mail, because that is another thing that will run the risk of making people think you’re in charge of cleaning.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I briefly had a job as an admin as a startup, and it *was* considered my job to clean the place up. The “boys” got to make all the mess they wanted, and the “ladies” had to serve their lunch and clean up all the mess for them so they could do “real” work.

      It was as gross as it sounds and thankfully it was a temp job so it was over soon.

    4. LawBee*

      “Administrative manager” doesn’t equal “office maid”. I’d send out an email stating that everyone is responsible for maintaining the office common areas, that the kitchen etc. is increasingly getting out of control, and try to tie it into productivity somehow.

      No one will change their behavior, because no one thinks they’re the messy one, but you’ve then given yourself permission to step back and not get pulled into that role. I would expect a few “Leslie, I can’t find xyz in the storage closet” comments, where you can go “yeah, it’s hard to find when no one cleans up after themselves” and move on.
      Signed, she who had to do this before and it sucked but eventually everyone got basically on board

    5. Quandong*

      Yes, definitely send an email to the staff reminding them to clean up after themselves.

      This is a perpetual problem at places where I work unfortunately, regardless of the age and sex of the people there.
      What seems to have been the most successful in reducing the worst of the messes:
      1. regular reminders by email that the admin staff are not responsible for cleaning up, and that the actual cleaners are also not responsible for washing dishes and tidying stationery
      2. printed posters on the fridge and at the sink reminding people to wash, dry, and stow any items they use at the kitchen
      3. occasional email reminders from HR or building managers that people must clean up after themselves.

      I hope the employees start to do the right thing!

      1. valentine*

        And define terms. Tell them what clean looks like and post pictures, if necessary. They will make fun of it, but the pictures will take hold and they will find themselves making the counter and fridge match the images.

  125. Conversations with Insanity*

    Chat conversation with employee who seems to not like to admit he doesn’t know how to do something or doesn’t know something.

    Employee: Hey, another department asked me to pull a list of all the ads we placed for flea prevention month last year. I’m only finding one.
    Me: Yes, they sometimes request this. We send them a list of all ads placed for flea prevention month and flea prevention week. Here’s what I did last year (Send employee a link to the spreadsheet that lists description of ads included) and you can find the information in last year’s ad spreadsheet (send link to file).
    Employee: I looked in that file. I’m only finding one ad for flea prevention month.
    Me: You’ll have to look for both flea prevention week and flea prevention month. You may need to also use broader search terms and look for ads that covered cats and dogs, which might mention pest prevention or similar promotions.
    Employee: Right, that’s what I did. I’ll look again.

    (Except – that isn’t what he did, because I searched “flea prevention week” and found 4. I then walked over to make sure he found what I found.)

    Head meets desk.

    1. Deryn*

      UGH I work with someone similar. He vacillates between not admitting he doesn’t know how to do things and pretending he doesn’t know how to do things so that he doesn’t have to do them. Just a little Hannah Montana Best of Both Worlds situation [facepalm]

      1. valentine*

        No one has ever held my hand like this, not even during childhood. I’m just expected to learn. Anywho.

        Do you need to define terms as though computers are new? Did he look with his eyes or with his typing? Stop doing his work and suggest remedial training.

  126. Laika*

    I tried to negotiate for a pay raise for a new job I was offered! It didn’t go anywhere (their answer was basically: “oh, everyone starts at this rate”), but I’m still thrilled that I tried. They scheduled a call to discuss it and I was interested to know what their reaction was going to be, and went into it thinking it might give me a chance to get a read on their office culture, too. Based on interview vibes – I didn’t expect them to rescind the offer or anything, but you never know – I thought it might’ve been a long shot anyway. So even though I didn’t get what I was hoping, I’m proud I tried, and glad I got some extra info about the role and the people I’ll be working with!

  127. BeanCat*

    Thanks to everyone who sent me well wishes for the interview a few weeks ago – I did not get the position for reasons that make sense BUT I got a lot of amazing feedback and was encouraged to try again if another internal posting opens. So I’m pretty upbeat about it for now! Thanks everyone :)

  128. LPBB*

    I am struggling a little bit to figure out how best to answer concerns from potential employers about potentially long commutes.

    I live in the Baltimore-DC region where long, traffic intensive commutes are fairly common but are also a common cause of burnout in employees. I have tried to stay away from applying to jobs that will require a commute longer than an hour each way, but unfortunately most of the opportunities right now are in a part of MD that will easily add 20-30 minutes to the commute. I’m also about to start my fourth month of unemployment, so I’m panicking a little and am applying to jobs in locations that I wouldn’t have previously considered. Moving is absolutely not an option.

    Anyway, I know that the length of the potential commute will come up in any kind of interview. For instance, I just had a phone screen with a recruiter from a federal contractor for a position that I had applied for and that was quite literally her first question for me.

    I’m sure that I’m overthinking this, but I’m not sure how to adequately address employers’ concerns. I feel like just waving away the potential heinousness of the commute will come off as naive and make employers worry that I’ll quit after a couple of months, while acknowledging the potential suckitude will also reinforce it as a red flag for employers. I tried to make a joke about it with that recruiter by saying something along the lines that I wasn’t thrilled about the commute but I was less thrilled about unemployment, but that was absolutely the wrong tack to take! She said she would send my resume along to the hiring manager, so I guess I eventually convinced her, but I would like to have a better response in my pocket for next time.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Is moving a possibility? I’m in the same area, and when I started my current job (also after a period of unemployment), it was a 45-minute commute. After a little over a year, I was able to move to within 10 minutes of my office, through a combination of a raise, good luck on the apartment-hunting front (I got the last open spot in my complex!) and some careful budgeting.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      You said that moving isn’t a possibility, but could it be in the future? Next time someone asks, I might say “I will be looking to move after I get settled in a new role.” Then hey if something opens up down the line, you can move. If nothing does or you’re still not able to, then “you’re still looking.” People can spend years looking for a new place. If the commute isn’t bothering you, it might not come up.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      “Yes, it IS quite a commute, but that’s not an uncommon thing in this area, so I’m prepared for it.”

      “I’ll be commuting at first, but that doesn’t mean I have to keep it up forever.” (It’s not a lie, because you could be thinking about your next job, which wouldn’t require such an onerous commute.)

      1. valentine*

        Yes, tell them how you’re going to tackle it. Audiobooks? It’s your me time?

        Any chance of staying closer during the week?

      2. Kat in VA*

        I have 1-1.5 hour commute each way. It’s literally my only ME time that I get so when folks comment “Oh you poor thing” or whatever, I tell them it’s 2-3 hours a day I get all to myself (unless BossMan calls and wants to yack about work).

        FWIW, I’m in the NoVA area and yes, people do commutes like this all the time!

  129. Galinda Upland*

    I’ve got a dilemma, so if anyone reads this far, I’d be glad for some advice. I have a graduate degree in a creative, semi-unstructured/heavily freelance field, say chocolate teapot designing, and I have experience in teaching it at the college level. Although chocolate teapots are a bit niche and considered “bourgeois” in teapot academia, I do enjoy teaching, I love my students, and I’ve been able to juggle teaching with creating my own teapots. I’ve been pursuing a full-time career in the actual designing of chocolate teapots and have been planning a move to Major City where there are a lot more opportunities to get my designs in front of chocolate teapot fans. I have a freelancing business that would support this move financially, so finance isn’t a major factor here.

    Last week, I received an email from my former academic employer, wondering if I’d like to return for the fall semester to teach a pair of chocolate teapot design courses – one of which would be a new course I spent a lot of time pushing for during my previous tenure, but never got approval for. I’d love to teach these courses, but there are two problems. 1) the department is extremely stressful to work for and did not give me a lot of support the last time they asked me to “develop” something like this, and 2) taking this gig would mean postponing my hoped-for move to Major City for close to a year, leaving me in Current City, which I don’t especially like.

    Networking is crucial in my niche of the teapot industry, and being in the room where it happens is often more important that formal titles and presentations. Current City has very little in the way of these networking opportunities, but this class I’ve been offered is a passion project (plus, big change like moving terrifies me, no matter how much I want it, if I’m honest). Any thoughts on what I should be weighing in my decision?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Would teaching these classes be useful experience to have in Major City? If so, could you postpone your move just for one year?

      1. Galinda Upland*

        Debatable. It would hinge more on who I connect with while doing the classes. I’m not likely to get a teaching gig in Major City (which is fine); I’d be focused specifically on the actual teapot designing. I’ve thought about postponing the move, but this would be the second postponement (I postponed for the same reason last year, for the same employer).

        1. Rusty Shackelford*

          If you wouldn’t gain anything long-term, and you didn’t enjoy the experience previously, I don’t see any reason to do it again.

    2. Alex*

      Only you know how much each thing will affect your future, but I think one thing to consider is how developing that class will look to others. There’s something to say for pushing for something and then also implementing it–kind of like seeing a project through to the end.

      It depends on how happy you are where you are now and how much growth you think you can accomplish while you are still in your current city.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      Look back at the emails or other reminders of what it was like to work for these people before and weight that against how badly you really want to teach this class. Look at a calendar of events in Major City and decide if you really want to wait another year. Does this feel like the last chance you’ll ever have to teach this class? Is that feeling valid when you look at it more closely?

  130. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

    Any AAM fans who are social workers or caseworkers? I’m an admin assistant in that field and I’d like to hear from you. Any tips on how admins could make your work easier would be appreciated. I’m also curious about how long it takes you to write assessments after meeting with clients. Thanks.

  131. NoMoreTeaParties*

    I did a thing. A big thing.

    But first a question – when faced with a choice between your integrity and your mental and physical health, what do you do?

    I left a toxic job yesterday under constructive dismissal/resignation. Did so before an event, but I was on the verge of a breakdown. Anxiety attacks, not eating, hostile and toxic boss. Normally would see thru a commitment to a project but I just could not…. Board member of the org is aware of what led to this tough decision and is supportive.

    How do you recover after a situation like that?

    1. Louisa*

      As you may see below, I’m in a similar boat, but not quite to the point you’re at yet.

      Kudos to you for leaving, even if it felt like you were forced out. Without knowing your financial situation (I’m the primary wage earner at my house with young kids, so I feel a little trapped) I think you recover by breathing for a few days if you can, and then identifying why that job was so toxic for you. Then trying to find jobs maybe at a slower pace that focus on only positive things for you.

      Good luck.

      1. NoMoreTeaParties*

        My husband is the main breadwinner, so things will be a little tight until either I get EI.
        The toxicity: a boss who does not trust in my abilities, has made it clear she has no confidence in my abilities, and 10+ pages of review notes outlining how inept I am. And treating me differently from the other staff. And she spoke so glowingly when I interviewed for another position with the organization

    2. Bunny Girl*

      There is no job worth your health. Ever. Your mental health or your physical health. Take care of you. Reflect back on what made that job toxic, so that you can be on the lookout when you are ready to try for a new position. It’s okay to take some time to yourself. When you are ready to start interviewing, it’s perfectly okay to say that you needed to take some time off to look after your health but now you feel ready to come back. Just be kind to yourself. It’s absolutely okay.

      1. NoMoreTeaParties*

        I mentioned above the reason for the toxicity.
        And thank you – it’s hard to put myself first, but I have the support of my husband in this decision, and as bad as I feel about leaving days away from a major event, I would have been worse off afterwards.

    3. MaureenC*

      I’m not sure what you mean by integrity in this context, but unless your quitting caused irreparable harm to someone (and no, being embarrassed that there aren’t enough cheese puffs on the buffet doesn’t count) I don’t see a moral or ethical component to this, fwiw. If it’s more of a “I gave my word” thing – there’s a reason why constructive dismissal is a thing. Anyone who makes a workplace that bad has already breached the implicit social contract and thus nullifies your obligation to keep working there. They’re just reaping what they sowed themself.

      1. NoMoreTeaParties*

        Integrity in my context: Remaining in a job until a commitment I made to myself is met (in this case, getting through a major tea party event). No irreparable harm was done, but I do feel a little guilty for leaving everything on my coworkers.

        Thank you. You’re saying the same things others have, and I am glad to have made this decision.

    4. PBJnocrusts*

      I fully support you :) same thing happened to me. Job was effecting my mental and physical health.no job is worth this. You have to do what is right for you. Try not to feel bad about it. Slightly different situation as I was a contractor but I was offered the job permanently and turned it down. I’ve been gone 4 months and job has been re advertised twice. So obviously the person who replaced me permanently and the one who replaced them did not stay.

  132. Seeking Second Childhood*

    My employer is generally regarded as a BigExcellentCorporation. (That acronym is not coincidental. Heh.)
    I work across two groups that merged a few years ago: CompleteTeaServices and PeripheralTeapotLids. These groups are so focused on their own production goals that they ignore each other. TeapotLids is churning out new lids every few months and fighting coordination with CompleteTeaServices. CompleteTeaServices is trying to avoid interim document updates that accomodate new lids.
    To make it more fun, TeapotLids made a major change to a series of lids that was to replace an old set. Doc#s stayed the same because the old set would never be touched again: Rev A went to Rev B. We did TeaServices manual updates to explain. Now they’re revising the old set after all…
    The next thing to be revised may well be my resume.

  133. TooTiredToThink*

    I am pretty amused about this: When I was hired on, my offer letter gave me Title A. I noticed that in our employee directory I have Title B. In our payroll system I had Title C (which was very close to Title B, but not quite) but now suddenly I have Title D. All while colloquially known by Title E.

    I just stick with Title A on my resumes. LOL

    1. LaDeeDa*

      At my company titles mean nothing! Our HR system has titles that are aligned with the global levels (which don’t exist here) then our directory has the titles we use are given — in title only, then our performance management system has the title that was in the offer level and matches their pay.

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        At least one of the systems matches your offer letter though. Literally none of mine even come close to it. It seriously cracks me up.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      5 titles is more than I’ve had at a time but I wouldn’t just say “lol” but also get it straightened out with HR. You need to represent a consistent title between things like your résumé, Linked In if you use it, references, etc in the future.

    3. Jules the First*

      My personal favourite remains the job in which neither my contract, my email, my payslips, the company directory, or my business cards had a job title (and I never got a job description). Everyone else at the 400+ strong company had one, but I had a blank line.

      I still get a kick out of the idea that the company hired me for £BigSalary to do…um….Things….Importanty Things That Will Not Otherwise Get Done…and I worked there for three years, with glowing reviews.

      But then again, I also quite liked the job before that, in which the owner’s wife would introduce me to new staff and visitors as “Our Genius…you know…like Apple except for the Universe.”

  134. Karen from Finance*

    How do we feel about a company whose Glassdoor reviews are all 1-star or 5-star? Suspicious, yes?

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      It depends on how many reviews there are; which might be weighted by employee size. 25 employees and 3 1 star reviews? Run. 3000 employees with 3 1 star reviews – eh, not enough data to make a determination.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        100 employees. 30 reviews. 60% positive/40% negative. Negatives are all from the office where the product is made, positives are all from the offices where commercial and management are based.

        One 1-star review actually says “The 1 stars are the real reviews”, which, um,……

        1. irene adler*

          Are the positive reviews all grouped by similar dates?
          That could be a tip-off that someone internal asked their employees to make positive Glassdoor posts.

        2. TooTiredToThink*

          The fact that there are 30 reviews with only 100 employees gives me a lot of pause for concern.

          1. Karen from Finance*

            Yeah, a few of the negative ones were from ex-employees that were like “run!” which is scary, but I’m not used to looking at Glassdoor so Idk how much I should expect this.

        3. HeyNonny*

          I’ve worked somewhere that the internal “climate survey” results came such that all the front line employees were unhappy, and all the management (Who were mostly at a different location) thought everything was great. I got a better job, and from a distance I can now see how disfunctional they really were.

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I tend to look for patterns rather than 1 star vs. 5 star. Are the 5 star ones really generic and ones that could be said about any workplace? It might be friends or family on there. Are the one star reviews detailed and they all mention the same couple things? Like that the hours are really long, there is no work-life balance, and the CEO ate babies? Yeah that might be something to give you pause.

      1. ANon..*

        +1

        Also, would it be easy for management to identify the employees who wrote the 5-star reviews? (As in, do they give away a ton of specific and/or identifying information?)

        At my former Toxic Job, CEO pressured employees to write 5-star reviews to combat the 1-star reviews. 5-star often listed their job title, or contained information that made it pretty obvious who the person writing it was, since they didn’t care if the CEO could figure out who they were. Additionally, the faked 5-star reviews touted things that normal employees wouldn’t care about (like, “Sure, it sucked that we had to go through restructuring and let people go, but the result is that we’re all much closer together!” meanwhile 1-star reviews mentioned working in constant fear of suddenly losing their job).

    3. Karen from Finance*

      I really want this job because it pays very well, but I don’t want to get stuck in another crazy work culture (see above) so I’m very ambivalent about how I should interpret this. I want to believe it’s going to be fine, but if it’s not, I want to know.

      1. Laika*

        My organization is small (<40) and our Glassdoor reviews are polarized in a similar way. Is there a pattern to the one-stars? While I do think people who are very unhappy are more likely to complain, if there is a pattern it's worth considering. You can read between the lines a bit; eg. the positive reviews for my company praise work culture and benefits, and the negatives focus on (lack of) growth opportunities and (mis)management. Honestly, all of them are… kinda legitimate criticisms. But the people who are happy here are happy because of the great benefits and friendly colleagues; the people who are unhappy are unhappy because there's so much red tape and bureaucracy and little chance for movement. So, who is "right"? Well, neither. It's just about what they value in their workplace.

  135. Louisa*

    I need advice about if it’s worth it to stay or if I should leave.

    I’m in the interim director role where the job search for director has dragged out for over six months now (including multiple failed searches . . . though I was in the pool for all of those and am now one of two finalists). I have used this time as interim director to really try and prove myself — and I’ve done it. Except — my health is struggling. I’ve had two panic attacks in the last three months (I’ve had a handful in my life, but never this close together), I’ve been sick for months and probably need to go back to the doctor again for more antibiotics, and I’m so close to burnout and just wanting to walk away completely.

    I actually love my job. If I get the director position it will almost double my pay, and that would be huge for my family. But beyond the money, 95% of the job I’m really good at, and enjoy. It’s just a job that used to be supported by two people, and now is supported by one person part-time, and the part-timer quit this morning, and trying to keep up with everything is making me crazy. I’ve already spoken to my bosses about how I can’t do the work of three people and I’m told that of course they don’t expect that — but they do.

    My worst panic attack was yesterday afternoon, a day when I was technically off on vacation (I’m on vacation today too) and I sent an email to the wrong person (the recipient had replied all, and I accidentally did too — sending my sensitive-though-not-confidential response to an entire listserv). It’s a stupid mistake, but I feel like the workload is so intense that I’m bound to make more stupid mistakes in the future and now I’m terrified to even check my email. I took a few days off to chill with my kids (1 and 3) and just try and breathe and I still found myself doing hours of work yesterday, culminating in sending that email which then completely devastated my evening (like hot face, trembling for hours, couldn’t think — probably the worst panic attack I’ve ever had). My calm rational brain today knows I way overreacted, but the pressure in this job is immense.

    Anyway — what would you all do? Would you stay? Am I having the wrong conversations with my bosses? How do I keep myself calm when I’m terrified of making a mistake?

    1. Louisa*

      I should add — my former boss left last fall because she was also having similar physical and mental symptoms. She did have more support than I do (including me!) but the demands were also extremely unrealistic.

      1. valentine*

        You are working yourself to death and it’s not only not worth double pay, but your increasing healthcare needs will far outpace that pay, which would only really be double if you had a rational workload and that didn’t change. I don’t know why you think your former boss couldn’t hack it with more support, but that you are even more superhuman than she was. You couldn’t bear to disengage for a single vacation day. You’re carrot/sticking yourself and TPTB are perfectly happy to crush you. This isn’t sustainable and you have no real reason to think it’ll change, but, even if it does, what condition will you be in? There is no tolerable amount of panic attacks you can forecast. The only certainty is that, if you don’t pull the emergency stop today, your health will worsen by leaps and bounds. Your body has cried out to you, pleading for mercy, and you’re on strike 2. Strike 3 is forced hospitalization for dehydration, ulcer, exhaustion, or a cardiac event.

        I would use as much PTO as possible in a chunk (to properly rest (zero work) and to play with my babies), then job-search.

    2. fposte*

      I’d look into therapy whatever you do and also go back to the doctor about whatever you’re getting antibiotics for. It may be that you need more; it may be that it’s not an antibiotic problem after all.

      One big reason to look into therapy is that this may not be a problem that can be solved by externals at this point; another is to help you figure out what you want. If you don’t get the director position do you think you want to stay? What if, God forbid, they fail the search *again* and keep you as interim? What if they keep you as director but don’t give you support?

      On the wrong conversation with your bosses–I’m a maybe. Is all you want from them support staff, or were you asking a larger question? The good news/bad news is that for a lot of director positions the support staff problem would be yours to solve. So what do you want to do? Get a posting up and hire a temp? Borrow some support time from other support staff in the organization? The higher you go, the more it’s a case of asking forgiveness rather than permission; it’s up to you to gauge where you are on that spectrum, but I would guess based on the description of the office that it’s also up to you to make this happen, so I’d make what you require from them as limited as possible. “Boss, I’ve drafted the posting for Bob and Jane’s replacements [and run it past HR?]; unless you have an objection, I’ll post those tomorrow to the usual places. To get projects done I’ll need interim support, so I’ll be hiring a temp and have reached out to the marketing department to see if I could use some time of one of their interns. Again, let me know if this is a problem.”

      1. fposte*

        P.S. I’ve been in jobs where the expectations don’t really match plausibility. From what you say of the former director and the failed replacement searches it’s quite likely this is one. Sometimes you have to have somebody with the drive and persuasiveness to get a unit staffed up to what it needs; sometimes you need a truth-teller to make savage cuts to focus on the highest priorities and take the rest off of the mission; sometimes people get burned up to a crisp as the unit struggles to meet these expectations until either it flounders or it finds one of the prior-mentioned kinds of people.

        (Oh, I just figured out the math–that you’re operating as the director and in your former capacity at the same time. I don’t know that changes what I’d suggest much; you might hire a manicotti assistant rather than a manicotti associate on top of the part-timer.)

        And since this is a topic on which I have Feelings, one more important point: I would definitely windowshop for other jobs. Being left at interim after a failed search wherein you were a candidate is not a vote of strong confidence, and it suggests that even if they eventually make the sensible choice and give you the job, you won’t have the kind of political capital a newcomer would. I’m not even saying you have to leave this job–but if you know you have options, this will be a much more informed choice and will help you cast this situation as one where your needs are absolutely worth their consideration, rather than feeling like you need to be grateful to them.

        1. Louisa*

          Thank you. I needed to hear all of this.

          If I get the job they will be hiring to replace my position but having them take on other work outside our department as well. They have been told this makes no sense (by me and by THEIR bosses) but the management directly above me is insisting this is what makes the most sense. As a result, the director position will no longer be reporting to my boss but someone else. It’s all kind of a mess. But I’m in it, and it has the opportunity to make significantly more money and finally feel like I could breathe or maybe even go on a vacation one day.

          But my mental health is definitely suffering. As is my physical health. I feel like I need to get that under control before I do anything else, but this job seems to be making them worse.

          1. fposte*

            It’s tough, because anxiety stress often tends to make people freeze up more–action seems even more unsafe. But I think anything you can do to break out of that is probably good for you, even if it’s just advocating more directly for yourself in your current situation.

          2. Dr. Anonymous*

            What if you made a list of all the job duties and struck through the ones you wouldn’t be able to do anymore with the planned level of staffing? That may be the conversation to have with management. If the expectations are killing you, and the staffing they’re offering “makes sense” to them, maybe you can decide what “sense” looks like. If they balk, they’re saying that what makes sense to them is having you work yourself to death. That may help you decide whether to stay.

  136. The Elephant in the Room*

    I have a new job – yay!!! But now I’m navigating the weirdness of trying to handle the transition at the old job as well as stamping down my nerves about new job. I have been at old job 15 years and unfortunately I was passed over for a promotion – a new person was brought in instead and I was tasked with training this person, an incredibly difficult challenge considering he got the job I wanted and he doesn’t have the level of knowledge I have (he’s never worked with our software product or in an office our size). That was my cue to start looking. Now that I’ve given my notice, he is the ONLY one I’m training on everything I know/do. He is clearly in over his head. I’m trying not to make this my problem. I’ve been clear about my job duties, documenting procedures, etc., but I don’t’ want a bunch of phone calls/emails at new job. Regarding new job, I know I can do it, but I know it will be a challenge too, so I keep thinking about things I need to do to prepare, even though I’ve got to focus on finishing up at old job. I’m really, really excited, but I’m losing sleep because time feels like it just sped up & there’s so much to do!

    1. MsM*

      If you don’t want a bunch of calls/emails at New Job, you don’t need to take a bunch of calls/emails at New Job. Just tell them that it should all be in the documentation, and wish them luck.

      Also, anything you can encourage new guy to help out with the documenting while you’re training, since he’ll have to get used to it soon enough?

      1. valentine*

        If you’ve taken out all the stops, restore them. Work a reasonable amount for your health, not based on Guy’s needs (mainly because no single person can fulfill them, but also because no one should do more for him than he does for himself).

        I fear you’ve already told them where you’re going. Not ideal. But block their numbers on your phone(s). Tell them personal email (filter the domain) is the best way to contact you. Maybe check it once a month from your last day. You can give a short answer or two, then goodbye! If they accuse you of being unhelpful and you feel the need to explain, I might go with, “Let Guy find his feet without my specter over him”. Absolutely do not take calls at your new job, don’t give them your work email (filter oldjob’s domain to delete), and, if they get past the receptionist, tell them it’s not appropriate and redirect them to your personal email. Do not do any work for them when cornered. No answering just a quick question while they have you on the phone.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I’d have a hard time replying to any requests for help with, “If you wanted my expertise, you could have promoted me.” Maybe just something to think to yourself while declining any calls and ignoring any emails. I understand not wanting to burn a bridge, but it is completely okay to tell them you have a full plate with your new job, everything was transitioned to the new guy, thanks bye!

      It’s really great that you got out of there, I hope the new job is a good challenge!

  137. dragon_heart*

    Is it normal nowadays for headhunting firms to have their own technical/coding exam just for pooling candidates?

    I was recently approached by a headhunter and after I told them I was interested in the job, they had me take an online technical exam that had their company logo which made me suspect that it was their exam and not a client’s. Is this the new normal now, that you have to pass a recruiter exam before you are even endorsed to a client?

    1. Dragoning*

      I’ve done it a few times for certain recruiting firms. I don’t know if it’s “normal” though.

    2. Darren*

      I have definitely had a few recruiters that had such testing in place. It was usually used as a value-add for their clients (i.e. you don’t need to do the screening tests of these guys we already did and here are the results) and so when I was going through them I did get to skip the company screening test (note the recruiter often used the same tests as most of the larger companies used) and just had to do the in-person technical testing.

  138. Astrea*

    I have a job interview next week!!! Thanks be to Alison’s posts and the comments that helped me navigate the application process between usual rules and Friend’s conflicting guidance on best practices for getting noticed in a good way. 

    I’m anxious about clothing — I don’t currently have a business suit that fits, and don’t know if I can find a flattering one as a hard-to-fit woman, but am afraid to risk being less formal, and can’t walk through the expected snow and rainwater in dress shoes but can’t lug boots around at an interview — and all the mistakes I could make, even when interviewing for a job that I’m a relatively good fit for with minimal qualification-stretching. After more than three years of job-hunting with never an offer, it’s hard to have much confidence.

    1. Louisa*

      I don’t know the field, but I think a nice black dress with a cardigan can be a lot more flattering on some bodies (mine, included), and as long as they’re both on the more formal side it still is enough for most fields.

      1. Astrea*

        I expect so. I’m very short, very busty, and not very thin, so it’s hard for me to find any clothing that’s not too long and/or too tight. I often buy too-long pants that otherwise fit and have a tailor shorten them, but no time for that now.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          If you’ve got a Roz&Ali near you give it a look. (Formerly Dress Barn.)
          They go from size 4 petite to size 24w, with combinations in between and a good ability to call other stores for sizes they don’t have in stock. They earned my loyalty by carrying wide width shoes.

    2. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      On the no boots – wear cheap flats you don’t care about, then put them in a plastic bag in your laptop bag and switch into your good shoes once you are in the door. you just need them from the car/ stop to the door…. payless or so quality will do it (or an old sacrificial pair).
      Carry extra socks.
      It is (I have been informed) not the thing to have “Matchy matchy suits” so I will echo the wear what flatters in a basic color, even if it is a sheath + cardigan or blazer, or sweater, blazer + pants.

      1. Astrea*

        I don’t have a laptop bag (or laptop), or cheap shoes that could fit in one. Luckily, precipitation is no longer expected, so I hope not to need any other shoes.

        I shopped at Kohl’s and a local secondhand store, and found a nice blouse or two that fits me decently and some pullover sweaters that are pretty and well-fitting but probably not formal enough. No cardigans, though. I hope a blouse will suffice with dark pants and dress shoes. It was a struggle to shop with my mom, who’s been self-employed for nearly 30 years and thus has even less idea than I do of what to wear at a job interview– I had to keep saying that colorfully-patterned blouses may be fancy, but are not acceptable.

    3. WS*

      Separates are fine these days – dark pants or skirt, non-matching blazer or cardigan (double checking for any pilling!), shell top or blouse.

  139. matcha123*

    I have had some weirdness with a coworker since I started working at my office two years ago. She is senior to me in age and rank, but doesn’t have final say over my work. She is in her maybe early to mid 50s and I’m in my mid 30s.
    However, she’s tagged me as mid-20s since I’ve arrived and treats me like I’m an inexperienced fresh grad.

    I know a lot of other women want to be seen as “older” to get respect at work, but I don’t want to play that card. I don’t want to talk about aches and pains or disparage “young” people or whatever language just so that someone will respect me. I don’t dress “young” (whatever that means)…no flashy clothing. I do have a few brightly colored shirts, but other women who are in their 40s will wear similarly colored clothing, so I don’t think it is totally out of place.

    I don’t know if I have a question. But I am frustrated that anyone would expect me to act a certain way to fulfill their stereotype of how an experienced person “should” act. Am I crazy for not wanting to age myself/be seen as older just to get some respect?

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      You’re not crazy. You deserve respect regardless of your age.

      If I don’t miss my guess, a lot of her comments are about millennials or in that vein and may as well be about “kids these days.” I suggest you (diplomatically) call her out, because her behavior is inappropriate. (Scripts, anyone? I’m far too direct myself to be a very good inspiration here.)

      1. matcha123*

        Fortunately she doesn’t say “millennials,” but does drop lines about not getting certain types of technology due to age (which, what?!) or other comments about how she’s the oldest on our team.

        1. Snickerdoodle*

          I’ve heard the “I don’t get it because I’m old” line before, which to me is just another way of saying “I don’t want to try.” She sounds very insecure about her own age, not yours.

          1. valentine*

            Clemency: I don’t know how you can wangle the whozit. I guess I’m just too old!
            You: I’m sure manager will support you taking a course. John Dingell had a ball on the Twitter!

            Clemency: I’m twenty billion years older than you infants.
            You: Someone’s gotta be, but it means nothing. Someone has the last birthday of the year, but we don’t know who/we don’t think about it, because it just doesn’t matter.

            But even that’s more work than she deserves. So:
            ~I hope that works out for you.
            ~I’m sure it’ll all work out.

            1. matcha123*

              The “that’s too young for me” type comments will pop up on things that aren’t directly related to everyday work. For example, writing about AR in blurb about a new product, she’ll say “What’s AR? That stuff is for kids.” Without thinking or realizing that AR is not developed by five year olds and many older people use it, too. My colleagues will rush to agree that it’s kiddy stuff, but I don’t offer much commentary.

    2. cactus lady*

      GAH I am in the same boat (mid-30s woman, look younger, get treated like a new grad, esp by women who are older than me) and it’s super frustrating. I generally think this happens with women who don’t like other women, and/or are insecure about getting older. I honestly don’t think there is anything *you* can do, because the problem is her. I try to ignore it (I am fortunate that the one at my office is a peer and does not outrank me), but I totally understand that’s not always possible. I wish I had better advice!

      1. matcha123*

        Good luck!
        I’ve seen the advice here for presenting as “older”, but I don’t want to do that! I’m not looking to get married and have kids so some people can decide that they can give me respect.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      The way to appropriately seem older at work, IMO, is to say things like, “Oh, XYZ happened in the job I had ten years ago…” or “I’ve been working on ABC kinds of things for years!” Just that kind of reminder that your professional experience is longer than the time you’ve been in this particular office.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        I was having engineer trouble when I first started where i am. Two things helped. First, I got in on the “who used older tech” conversations which won over the programmers. Second, I posted memorabilia from my college reunion…. insane but that won over the two worst offenders.

        1. matcha123*

          Unfortunately, I don’t think that will help much. I graduated in the 2000s and that alone has me marked as “young”. I’ve talked with another coworker who is slightly older than myself about shows that came out in the 80s, but that hasn’t really done anything. Just talking about college made her assume that I’d just graduated from college.
          I wouldn’t judge her as unfit to do a job due to her age, so I wish she’d give me the same respect.

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      When she says weird things, what would happen if you said, “oh, why do you say that? That’s not been my experience?”

  140. PhyllisB*

    Hooray!! It’s Friday!! Thought I would end the week with a little workplace humor. I found this in a very old (June 2002) Reader’s Digest, but it’s still just as funny today. Can’t give credit because there was no contributor listed.
    “Hey, things could be worse for you at the office!! You could, for example, receive feedback like these comments, purported to be taken from actual federal-employee evaluations:”
    *Since my last report, this employee has reached rock bottom and started to dig.
    *Works well under constant supervision and when cornered like a rat in a trap.
    *Sets low personal standards and consistently fails to achieve them.
    *This employee is depriving a village somewhere of an idiot.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      I always liked “You’ll be lucky if you get this employee to work for you!”

  141. Lizzard*

    How do you compare benefit packages between companies? Is it common to get or ask for a full benefits write up when you receive an offer? The only experience I have job hunting is when I was fresh out of college so any benefit package offered was good to me. I know you need to factor benefits into job offers, but other than vacation time I’m really not sure how to do that. Any tips/advice/resources are much appreciated!

    1. Not Today Satan*

      Yes, I’d ask for the full info. Between differences in the 401K match (or no match at all), health insurance (I’ve been at jobs where my portion is as little as $30 a month and as high as $300 a month for 1 person) benefits can really make a difference of several thousand dollars a year.

      It’s normal and employers won’t think anything badly about you for asking.

    2. irene adler*

      Ask them for details regarding each item comprising the “compensation package” they are offering to you.

    3. Coverage Associate*

      A “full write up” for US health insurance could be hundreds of pages. They should have a handout summary that might be enough.

      My family has a lot of health needs, so I review the handout and try to figure out if our current providers are in the plan. I can also be confident I will meet the full deductible, so I factor that in. For example, a plan with a $500/month employee contribution and $2000 deductible is better for my family than $100/month and $8,000 deductible.

  142. Snickerdoodle*

    I came here to vent about party planning gone awry.

    I volunteered to help with a favorite coworker’s retirement party, and three other people are also helping. I now cannot wait for my coworker to retire, not because I want her gone—I don’t at ALL—but because the woman “organizing” the retirement party is making such a mess of it.

    We’ve planned a fairly straightforward potluck retirement party; I bought some decorations, we took up a collection for a gift card, and we posted a signup sheet for people to bring food. The woman officially in charge of the party has gone overboard in trying to add little details here and there. She has a history of overcomplicating office events (picture “games” with too many rules that end up discouraging participation), but as she’s high ranking, leaving her out isn’t an option.

    Yesterday was supposed to be the last meeting finalizing the details of the party, and the four of us met in a conference room to go over picking up the cake, making sure we had all the utensils for the potluck, etc. The woman in charge started trying to add too many extra touches again, and we kept shutting her down. Had somebody else not mercifully booked the conference room immediately after us, the meeting would have dragged on far longer than it did. As it was, the three of us then had to go into the woman’s cube and look at a Power Point presentation she’d put together about the party. —facepalm—

    This morning, after the “final” meeting had already happened, she got the three of us together again and spent half an hour going over what kind of scrapbook paper to use for people to make a scrapbook for the retiring coworker. (I suspect that project will not see much participation.) We drifted away, but she tried to call us back half an hour later. I made a point of saying “I only have a minute” and showing up with a huge stack of paper. I said something like “Sure; sounds great,” left, shoved a chair in my cube entrance with a “priority project” sign, stuck my headphones in, and ignored her subsequent attempts to get my attention.

    OOF. I don’t understand how on earth putting out some decorations and food could possibly be that complicated. It’s just an office retirement party; not a state dinner.

    At least it should be a good party. The retiring person is well-loved, and there will be lots of food, plus I made her a present that should go down well. A week from now, it’ll be in the past. :)

    1. valentine*

      Why not ask? “Why do you feel that’s necessary?” Or tell her, “People will feel insulted if we micromanage their arts and crafts or tell them to bring squeeze-, not pour-bottle condiments”.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        I don’t want to get involved at all; I’ve brought the decorations and made the food I said I would, and that’s the extent of my participation. I set up my “priority project/no interruptions” sign at my cube entrance as soon as I arrived this morning, and I have a prepared canned “I’m sorry, I have other commitments, but I’m sure whatever you come up with is fine; now I really need to get back to this project” line ready. Tragically, I forgot my earbuds at home, but I plan to use my lunch hour to buy another pair just to keep in my desk for the future.

  143. Bubarina*

    Calling all academics! I defend my social sciences dissertation next week. I’m slightly panicked (although my chair assures me it will be fine). Any last minute advice? Tips that helped you get through it or prepare? Your horror stories are also welcome because I love to feed my anxiety.

    1. fposte*

      Gotta say, I’d advise against the latter. Let your anxiety diet for Lent; it can gorge when you’re through :-).

      Keep in mind that your advisors wouldn’t let you do this if you weren’t ready–not just because it would be bad for you but because they’d look pretty inept if they sent somebody out unprepared. And remember that you are the expert in the room on this topic; they are the experts on things that their knowledge converges with, but you’re not a supplicant here. And water is great for thoughtful pauses as well as hydration.

      Good luck!

      1. Bubarina*

        Thanks, fposte! It’s so hard to not feed the anxiety monster because my brain wants to run through all of the “what if” scenarios. I keep telling myself they wouldn’t have proceeded with scheduling the oral portion if my written dissertation wasn’t up to snuff. But it’s SO hard to quell the feeling that it’s going to be disastrous.

    3. VAP*

      In almost all programs that I’ve encountered, the defense is easier than the quals/prelim/whatever you called it, because it’s about demonstrating your understanding of the work that you did, rather than your understanding of the entire field. And you got through that! Plus, as others have said, they want you to succeed, and they wouldn’t let you get to this point if they didn’t think you would.

      1. Bubarina*

        Thanks, VAP! That’s what I’ve heard, too. My candidacy exam was a terrifying grill fest, but I’ve heard this is supposed to be a much less scary ordeal. One of my committee members says it’s the final hazing before you get to join the team, but I keep having these stress dreams that I forget everything I’ve written and can’t remember anything about the study I spent years designing, implementing, and analyzing. Objectively, I know that’s nonsense, but still.

        1. Overeducated*

          The difference between your quals and your defense is that at your defense, you are the expert in the room. I was surprised by how different that felt.

          1. The New Wanderer*

            Yes – that’s what helped me! Realizing that I was the most knowledgeable person in the room about my study didn’t let me relax, exactly, but gave me confidence to handle any question. And really, the questions were the best part because they showed the things my committee members were interested in.

            This also gets me through public speaking, which I sincerely enjoy now. Several times I’ve given talks as an “expert” on topics I literally just learned about in the preceding months, because I wanted to really get knowledgeable about those topics and that was the biggest motivator for me. I may have the opposite of imposter syndrome at this point…

            1. Bubarina*

              Ha, so funny that you have the opposite of imposter syndrome. The actual questioning at the defense isn’t worrying me as much as the presentation portion. I love teaching and can speak in front of hundreds of students without a problem. But giving a presentation that has so much importance to my career feels incredibly intimidating. I can’t seem to shake those jitters.

        2. VAP*

          I get it! My prelim exam was scary too, and my defense was much less so. Mostly, they wanted me to justify some choices that I made, and provide feedback for when I revised it for publication. I’m sure it varies by committee, but I do think that the defense is usually a lot better.

          1. Bubarina*

            I keep trying to remind myself that I know way more about my dissertation and the choices I made than anyone on my committee, so most of their questions will come from a place of curiosity or clarification.

    4. Bubarina*

      I promise I’m not usually a total bundle of irrational nerves like I am right now!

      I have an academic position that began this semester with the contingency that I go from ABD to PhD within a certain timeframe, so there’s also the nagging fear that I fail and lose my job. I KNOW I’m going to be fine, but it feels like climbing Everest between now and the end of next week.

    5. Overeducated*

      Prepare and rehearse the talk portion until you’re just bored with it and can’t wait to get it over with. When you’re bored, you know it well enough that your nerves won’t come out. Also, remember that in most sane programs, you don’t get to the point of scheduling your defense if your committee doesn’t actually believe you’re ready to pass – that would be a huge waste of everyone’s time and would make your advisor look bad in front of your readers.

      The only “horror story” I know concerns someone whose dissertation wasn’t actually complete, as in entire chapters not written or “written” the night before (not minor edits and formatting, those are totally normal to do post-defense). The committee agreed to this and gave them a “conditional pass” to qualify for a job they’d been offered, but apparently it wasn’t pretty and they did not bother to ever finish the dissertation. So if you’ve actually written yours, you will not have that problem!

      1. Bubarina*

        That is a crazy horror story! I fully expect minor edits and formatting changes post-defense, but it was written and ready to go four weeks ago! In fact, one of my committee members is the department head, and she wouldn’t even approve the defense scheduling process until she had a final, printed copy in her hands.

    6. sugarplum*

      My best piece of advice on defenses is: You’ll do great, because no (decent, functional) committee will let you get to this point if you’re not going to pass. It’s still nerve-wracking, and you may still need to make revisions, but at this juncture they’re just looking to make sure you can remark thoroughly and cogently on your study. They’re not looking for holes. In most cases, a failed defense would reflect more on your chair than on you. So go in knowing that in all likelihood there will be a positive outcome, review your presentation a million times, see if a friend or labmate who knows your committee members can give your draft a once-over to see if they pick up on anything you’re likely to get questioned on.

      And if there are physical papers to be signed make sure you have ALL of them. Last-minute signature scrambling is NOT FUN, ask me how I know. Good luck & congratulations!

      1. Bubarina*

        Thanks, sugarplum! I love advice that says I’ll be great. :)

        Fortunately, all of our forms are electronic, so the signing scramble is more about trying to get people to check a box than actually having to track them down. I definitely need to work more on my presentation. There’s so much information to condense into a handful of slides. Obviously, not everything can fit, but it’s hard to be objective about what’s important enough to include when I think everything about it is fascinating. I was never one of those people who became bored with their topic.

  144. Toxic Boss at an Otherwise Great Job*

    My boss sucks. She’s very difficult and always looking for conflict with me. At first, I thought maybe it was just me. But recently, someome shared with me the issues they have with her, and conflicts they’ve witnessed her instigate. And since then, as I’ve seen her interact with others, I’ve realized basically everyone here hates her!

    I’m her only report. I’ve only been here 6 months, and she never does anything super egregious. It’s more than I’m always walking on egg shells and managing her emotions. But it’s bad enough that I’m like, if she’s still my boss in 6 months I’m looking for another job. I’m wondering if it’s worth asking to change managers, and if so, when. To make matters worse, she has NO knowledge/expertise in my field whatsoever (which is technical). Neither does anyone else at my company, but I was basically assigned to her randomly.

    1. WS*

      If you want to change managers, you need to make a case for that. If your manager has no expertise in your field that makes it easier – which other managers would work best with what you do? How can you make your case that your work will go better *without* making it about a personality clash?

      1. valentine*

        Yes, your plausible escape is “Pious’s qrs knowledge make them a more compatible manager”.

        Stop managing her emotions, though. Disconnect.

  145. Peaches*

    I recently moved into a new position at work, and we had a woman start a couple weeks ago who took over my old position. I’m having an issue with her constantly asking to use a personal belonging of mine…

    My old position often requires the use of an iPad to perform what we call inspections, with a company app. When I first came into my old position, I had a cheap boss who did not want to purchase an iPad for me to use, so I ended up using my own personal iPad for work.

    My old boss is no longer with the company, and the current boss decided to purchase an iPad for the new employee. However, the new employee has come to me multiple times asking to take my personal iPad with her to customer sites to do inspections, because the app “doesn’t work” on her iPad. The first time she asked, her boss (who happened to be nearby), interjected and offered to let her use his iPad, because my iPad was my personal iPad. I was glad that he interjected, because I don’t feel like I should have to offer it up for a coworker to take out of the office all day, when it’s my personal belonging, not work property.

    However, since the first time, she’s asked me multiple times to use it. Yesterday, she asked me if she could use it tomorrow (which is now today) for an offsite inspection, since the app “wasn’t working” on her iPad. I told her to reach out to our Help Desk first (who is very good, and usually able to solve issues with our company apps fairly easily). This morning, she emailed me before she even got into the office asking again if she could use my iPad today, because the app still wasn’t working on her iPad. I lied and responded that I didn’t have it with me (I specifically brought my iPad today to watch my team play in the NCAA tournament over my lunch break). I also asked her if she’d reach out to Help Desk like I told her to the previous day, and suggested she delete and redownload the app. She responded saying that she would try to delete and redownload the app, but did not say whether she ever reached out to Help Desk like I told her to initially.

    I guess she got it to work after that because she didn’t ask again, but how to I get her to stop asking to borrow my personal iPad? Or, should I just suck it up and let her use it?

    1. fposte*

      No, you don’t have to let her use your personal iPad; this is ridiculous. I’m not sure if you’ve done this yet or not, but make sure that “No” is a blanket no, not just a no to the moment: “Jane, that’s my personal iPad; it’s not available for other people’s use. The help desk can help you, and of course you could always buy your own personal iPad if you’d prefer.”

    2. Louisa*

      Do not suck it up. It’s your iPad! I would just keep saying that “I’m sorry, this is my personal iPad, and I don’t feel comfortable letting anyone else use it.” I would probably laugh a little too — to emphasize how absurd this request is.

    4. CatCat*

      “Sorry, you need to use the work iPad. I’m won’t be lending out my personal iPad for this work. Thanks for understanding!”

      And if/when she brings it up again, repeat as often as you have to, “As I said, my personal iPad is not available for work.”

    5. Colette*

      Just say “You’ve asked to use my iPad several times. It’s my personal iPad, not a work iPad, and I’m not able to lend it to you.”

    6. Asenath*

      No, do not let her use your personal iPad. I’d say that even if she didn’t have a work one, but because she does have a work iPad, her request is particularly egregious.

    7. Susan K*

      No, you should not let her use your personal iPad! It is not reasonable for her to ask this if she knows that it is your personal device that you paid for. She and/or boss needs to work with IT to get the app working on the device that was provided for her to use.

      Also, have you asked new boss about getting a company-purchased iPad? If they are providing iPads to other employees, they should provide one for you.

    8. Toodie*

      No no no, do not let her use it. It’s yours. You were very very generous with your employer (my opinion) to have used it in the past, but … that was the past.

      Enjoy watching your game!

    9. Kathenus*

      Concur with everyone else. If you ever let her borrow it then you are just perpetuating the cycle. Just make it a polite but firm no every time. I agree that saying it straight out once – my personal iPad is not available for work use, so please work with your boss and IT to get yours working, so that you are being clear that she can’t use it. Then if she continues to ask – the answer is no. You can be nice about it, but you need to be consistent with the no or she’ll keep asking.

      1. valentine*

        Right now, there’s a weird assumption, even on your part, that your iPad is fair game. No. Just because you used it for work in the past doesn’t mean you haven’t now declared it a nonwork zone. Prepare scripts around that, including that past improper use has not indentured you. Take the position that her requests are as outrageous as though she’s asking to borrow your underclothes. That’s going to shore you up and set your tone. Either be proactive via email or, next time she asks, tell her it’s a no from you and your iPad just isn’t available for work/borrowing. (Why is she obsessed with it, anyway? Is there some cost involved with using the company iPad? Did former boss sicc her on to yours?) This might be too involved, but you can ask, “Is there a reason you don’t want to contact the Help Desk?” You can also just say no and not offer alternatives. You’re not tasked with maintaining, much less providing, her work equipment and she knows full well who is. You can leave her to it without seeming unhelpful.

        If anyone up the chain tries to compel you, stop taking it to work.

  146. Very Anon Today*

    Okay, I’ve been waiting for this week’s open thread because my coworker brought up something so bizarre, and when I tried to express that I thought it was weird/unprofessional, she acted like it was a totally normal hiring practice. Her husband works in a tech heavy industry and is currently being headhunted away from his current job. The next step in their hiring process (after having at least 4 interviews) is to have him take AN ENTIRE WEEK of PTO and work for them to make sure he fits in on the team. He will be paid contract for that time, but has to take a full week off from his current employer to do this.

    My thoughts (after voraciously reading AAM for the last several years) is that this is NOT NORMAL and would be a huge red flag to most people and that people who are talented and have options would withdraw and not participate in this exercise. I tried to politely tell her those things, is there any industry where this is standard practice???

    I see so many things wrong with this – what if you don’t have a week of PTO to take? What if you need to save it for other pre-scheduled vacations? What if it’s a busy time and you can’t get a full week off with such short notice? So SOOOO many problems! ACK!

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      What.

      I would turn tail and run for the hills as soon as I heard “sure just take a week off.”

      NO.

    2. CatCat*

      I’ve never heard of such I thing. I would nope out. I’d have already found “at least 4” interviews bizarro enough.

    3. irene adler*

      If there’s this level of disrespect at the interview phase (asking for candidates to take a week PTO as part of the interview process), how much worse does it get after they’ve hired hubby?

    4. LaDeeDa*

      My friend who was headhunted by Google spent 3 days on site for interviews, behavioral assessment, team building, etc- to make sure he was a good fit. I think it might depend on the company- are they doing it because they are highly invested in employees who fit their culture with the right behaviors, or do they just don’t know how to find the right employees.
      I would look up the company and see what others who have interviewed and employees have to say.

    6. The New Wanderer*

      At least they’re paying him? And hopefully at an inflated contractor rate. But no, not normal and probably not very useful. Unless the company just has a massive deadline at the end of that week that they’re temporarily staffing up for… If the company is worried about fit, they should have probation periods. This strategy isn’t going to give them a good selection of quality candidates.

      1. valentine*

        It’s not going to be inflated. If he does it, he should ask around. Maybe everyone in the room is also in this “interview” process.

        There was a recent thread where people said this is double dipping and possibly illegal, getting paid to get paid to work elsewhere.

    7. LCL*

      What if the new company wants to use this as leverage to lowball him? It could work something like this…
      ‘Look, you worked here for a week, you can do the job. Just take it at what we offered. If we have to talk to your former employer about his, they might not like hearing that you took a week off to work somewhere else.’

  147. D.W.*

    Is anyone familiar with the Google App Academy and whether or not it’s worth the commitment and money?

    My husband is considering going through their 12-week training. Apparently, the training is free and once you find a job you pay Google up to $28k, depending on the payment plan you’ve opted for.

    The training is M-F 9a-6p, which means that he would not be working for 12 weeks. I’m not keen on the idea because we do not have $28k to pay back and I do not want to go into debt over this. I’m also curious about the efficacy of the program.

    Thoughts?

      1. valentine*

        the training is free and once you find a job you pay Google up to $28k, depending on the payment plan you’ve opted for
        So, the training isn’t free. You’re contracting a debt. What if he falls ill or wants to quit a day in, etc.? Google it with “scam” or the like and see what people have to say.

        If you can’t afford it today (not just pay for it someday, but afford it), don’t support any reason for hubs to go unpaid for 12 weeks. He could probably hire a personal tutor for less than $28K and I’m sure there’s a lot better stuff you could do with that money that would actually bring money in for you.

        And see below about whether this is even Google.

    2. gecko*

      I work in tech but didn’t know much about this course. Looked it up so take what I’m saying with a grain of salt. But…

      If you end up paying 28k, that’s more than a semester at my undergrad was, and it certainly would not be worth it. That’s an insane amount of money for what they seem to be offering. And it sounds like a scammy payment model when you could get very similar videos on Youtube for actual free. I didn’t see that hidden pay-back on the website, which is sketchy.

      I don’t know what kind of jobs he’s looking for or whether it’d be an industry switch, but based on what you wrote and what I could see briefly on their website, I’d recommend another method of retraining.

        1. gecko*

          Got it! I was looking at the wrong link. The one here isn’t run by Google, and I’m glad that it’s much more upfront about its costs.

          Coding bootcamps in general—I’m not necessarily persuaded that graduates can find high-paying work in major markets. This bootcamp looks like the curriculum is decent (especially since it’s in person) but it’s worth about one semester of a single college course. For some employers that would be enough, for others, perhaps not.

          I expect that the bootcamp has a lender associated with it for its payment plan. My guess is the interest rate isn’t as low as it would be for a student loan so 28,000 isn’t accurate.

          Bootcamps aren’t bad, I think it would be tougher to find a job after a bootcamp than after a degree, and this one looks ok but expensive. I retract my “no way” but probably you guys would want to shop around a lot more, honestly. It sends up not scam signals but…like…risky signals.

          1. TechWorker*

            Are there any requirements on when you start paying back? Ie is it ‘if you get a job paying over x in this field’ or is ‘as soon as you get any job’? If it’s the former I would have very slightly more confidence (and I guess you’d want to look at how much you think it’d increase earning potential by). 28k is loads.. but then I work in tech and the difference between my wages and my friends with similar degrees but in different fields is easily more than that/year, ~4 years after graduation.

  148. Jessica*

    Okay, I was wondering how long is typical before a new manager meets with direct reports. I have a new manager who started a few weeks ago. I am one of 4 direct reports. I understand that my new manager may need time to get into the swing of things, but they have shown no interest in understanding my work and role in the office and have only engaged me in small talk, nothing work-related. Does this seem like a style of trying to develop rapport first and I should just be patient? Is it on me to schedule a one-on-one, or would that be seen as presumptuous?

    1. fposte*

      Not all managers do one-on-ones. I think they should, because they’re useful, and it sounds like they’ve been really useful to you. I don’t know how many weeks “a few weeks” are, but if they’ve been there at least a month and seem reasonable, I think it’s fine to say “I really have benefited from regular one on one meetings with past managers–is that something we might be able to institute?”

    2. Someone Else*

      I can’t tell if you’re asking about specifically not having any one on ones since new boss started or if you mean literally you’ve had no interaction with them besides small talk.

      Not all managers do regularly scheduled one on ones, so if this one doesn’t that’s not necessarily a red flag.

      But I do think it’s odd they didn’t meet with you at all since starting besides small talk/in passing. To me, that’s unusual and something that does normally happen in the first few days to go over briefly what your role is and whatnot.

      1. Jessica*

        Yes, this is more what I was concerned about. I don’t necessarily need one-on-ones, but though it was odd that they haven’t really asked about what I do in the office at all. I’ve just been hesitant to speak up, thinking that the ball starts in their court.

  149. mostlymanaged*

    Okay so an intern and I have worked on and added a new kind of offer for our company (think our company works in chocolate teapots, and we’ve created an offer for candy teacups.) This is already bringing in a lot of revenue. This intern is a super valuable team member– all senior management and everyone who works with him agrees on that. He also seems to really enjoy his role here. We’ve been the only two working on this project and on these deliverables.

    Intern’s internship is coming to an end, and so I was surprised to hear his direct supervisor say that she was sad that he was probably going to leave and wouldn’t want to stay. He’s previously and more recently said that he would like to stay, and that he’s messaged the CEO to say that as well. But I’ve also heard from the CEO and another manager that they don’t think intern wants to stay here.

    One thing I’ve noticed working with intern is that he doesn’t seem super great at expressing himself, especially with “figures of authority.” I guess I want to know what my role should be here– as a more senior peer who has worked with him extensively. He’s told me he wants to stay, but I’m not sure if he’s telling me one thing and saying something else to the higher ups, or if he’s not communicating with them effectively, or another factor. I’d really like this intern to stay on– his skillset is super specialized and though we’ve brought another developer on, neither I or the other developer are specialized in this revenue stream.

    Should I say something to him? Alert management that there might be a miscommunication? Or is this just none of my business.

    1. LaDeeDa*

      Yes! Say something to him! This is a great opportunity for you to offer some experience and guidance. He may think he has “hinted” strongly enough, but obviously, he hasn’t. If you feel it is appropriate I would mention it to your manager as well, tell them the intern has expressed interest in staying, but you aren’t sure if the message was received. I hope he stays!

    2. Susan K*

      Yes, talk to the intern. Tell him that you were surprised to hear from his supervisor and the CEO that he doesn’t want to stay and see what he says. If he reiterates that he does want to stay, you can suggest to him how to broach this with management so they know that he wants to stay. You should also mention that a lot of people think he’s a valuable team member and would love to see him stay, how impressed everyone has been with his contributions on the candy teacups, and that you really need someone with his specialized skillset. In other words, be specific so he knows you mean it and you’re not just saying you want him to stay to be nice, and help him with specific actions he should take to express his interest. This is not an easy thing for an intern to know how to handle, so it would be a big help to have a more experienced professional advise him.

    3. Kathenus*

      In addition to the other responses, it sounds like you are getting some great opportunities to also help set the record straight. If manager or CEO says again that it’s too bad intern doesn’t want to stay, you can jump in and say “Actually I’ve worked with intern a lot on this project and they’ve said that they are very interested in staying”. So talking to both the intern and using opportunities to mention this to the higher ups if possible might be a good two pronged approach.

  150. Aurora*

    I work in a fairly small company and was in my office after hours last night when a very junior person came to me and said a person more senior than both of us, but in a different department, had come in drunk and passed out on the floor of their office. I’m only a few years more senior than she is, and I had no idea how to handle this, but I wanted to make sure the senior person was ok, so I knocked on their office door and asked how they were doing. They said fine, just tired, and since they were coherent enough to give me a response, I just closed the door and left them lying there. My question is, what would you have done? Should I do anything further about this?

    I don’t want the senior person to think I overstepped, but it was just such a weird/awkward situation. Should I have just ignored the senior person and assumed they are adult enough to handle their own business? Should I do anything to follow up with junior person, like reassuring her that she did the right thing by finding me?

    1. LaDeeDa*

      OO wow! I hope Alison chimes in on this one. I think I probably would have done what you did and nothing else… I mean– at least they weren’t driving?

      1. valentine*

        I would’ve called 911 and reported my adult male colleague collapsed on the floor after xyz (stumbling/slurring his words/smelling of alcohol); conscious and responsive.

        Not being competent to declare him okay to be alone or to drive, I’m passing it to the relevant authority.

  151. Sphinx Programmer*

    The hierarchy at my new job is currently ambiguous and I’m starting to get nervous about how it will play out. There’s a meeting on Monday to figure out how everything will work since I’ll be tranferring to a different office in a couple months, the product owner is on the other side of the country (where the client is), and the other team member will remain at the main office. Eventually more people will be added to the team, but I don’t know which office they will be at.

    My title is a manager, but I have no idea what my coworker’s title is. Let’s call him Bob. In one system his title is an analyst but in an another system he has a very senior title that usually reports directly to our C-level exec. However, he had no idea who our C-level exec is and only met him on my first day when the exec came to see how I was settling in. Bob has only been there a week longer than me and currently our tasks do not overlap (since the project hasn’t started yet)

    Bob seems to blow off much of what I tell him. I’m a young-looking female so he seems stuck on the idea that I must be a newbie and disregards my 10+ years of experience. Whenever I state that something is beyond the scope of the project, his translation is that I must not know how to do. I’m constantly having to explain the scope and point of the project to him, often a mere 5 minutes after our product manager (also female) has said the same thing. It feels like the only person he doesn’t completely talk over and ignore is the male director who sits nearby.

    There was another red flag this morning when I mentioned that I attended our company’s brief celebration of Holi yesterday (I’m white, if its relevant, but wanted to meet people and learn more). His reaction to the event was *very* negative in tone, including “I don’t get why they do that” and blaming pollution on it. I mentioned that it was a religious/cultural event and ended the conversation because I didn’t know where it was going to go. I’ve realized that I haven’t really seen him talk to any of the (many) POC who sit near us – only the couple of white guys. He talks to me only when those guys aren’t available.

    This isn’t someone who I want managing me or any team. I’d have no problem with someone else being put in charge (though I’d think it strange to have a team of only managers), but it just can’t be him. But I feel like it’s too early to for me to stick my neck out like that. I don’t have enough evidence to give a concrete complaint about him or call him out. I don’t even know if Bob and I will be in the meeting to decide the structure, but if we are I know I wouldn’t feel comfortable raising those concerns with him in the room.

  152. When will the 40 Hour Workweek Die off?*

    I work in automation. Not anything glamorous like self-driving cars, but basic, everyday computer automation. Processes that used to take 3 days now take an hour.

    When will the 40 hour week die off already? As the man behind the curtain, I know how long stuff actually takes to do. Yet no one wants to speak up and say, “My job could be done in 20 hours a week–why do I have to be here 40 hours?” Or, “most of my job is strategy. Why do I need to sit at my desk at certain times?” What’s extra frustrating to me is, the jobs where the work is face to face (or on the phone) with customers and can’t be automated away–rather than being seen as particularly valuable, in effect their work is devalued. The regular office workers whose jobs have been automated from 40 to 32 hours of actual work get to surf the internet for 8 hours a week. But the irreplaceable human workers are forced to actually work for 40 hours, often for less pay than the administrative/office workers.

    I’m really at the point where if a typical office worker’s job requires 40+ hours of active work a week, I think one of the following is happening: 1) The person works hard and not smart. They’re inefficient. 2) A corollary of that, the worker has a martyr complex about the job and thinks being “busy” means being valuable 3) The company has one person in a role that should be filled by 2 or more. I don’t have any patience for it anymore.

    2. FD*

      I think that actually what’s happening is that there are fewer jobs, so many office workers are actually doing the roles that used to be filled by a larger number of people.

      Is there some ‘waste’ time? Yeah, of course there is. But in my experience, if something gets automated, everybody else ends up being expected to take on more responsibilities to compensate for their new ‘free’ time’.

      I also suspect that part of what’s happening is that as more jobs get automated, there are just…fewer jobs in a lot of cases, because it takes less labor to do those jobs than it once did. I suspect this is helping to push wages down because fewer jobs means more applicants on the market, and therefore companies feel they can pay less. I’m not convinced this will completely correct unless the population declines a bit.

      1. When will the 40 Hour Workweek Die off?*

        I think that definitely happened during the recession, but it’s a job seeker’s market right now. There was recently an AskReddit thread called “People with office jobs: How do you pretend to be busy for 40 hours a week?” The answers were hilarious but also sad. People wrote about walking around the office with papers, pretending like they needed to get things signed. Or typing gibberish when people walked by. Or getting browser extensions that make reddit look like Outlook.

    3. Amber Rose*

      Hear hear. I spend way, way too much time not working, because there’s no work. I have exactly two weeks a year where I’m required to actively work 40 hours, and it’s not that it’s a two person job but just that it’s time consuming, report writing work on a deadline. But that’s just two weeks out of 50.

      1. When will the 40 Hour Workweek Die off?*

        Yeah. Honestly, surfing the web for 7 hours a day (which doesn’t happen often but does happen occasionally) is just depressing. I know that I “should” be taking webinars or improving my skills in my free time but… meh. lol.

    4. Overeducated*

      I think you could add #4) the company works hard and not smart (inefficient processes that can’t be changed at the worker level do exist). I think there is a lot of #3 in the world as well.

      I also think tying benefits to full time work by law gives companies an incentive to get the “maximum” for what they’re spending on their full time employees, and gives workers an incentive to get full time rather than part time jobs, as part time work often pays less per hour AND lacks benefit. Being honest about how many hours you spend actually working doesn’t actually work in your favor and get you a shorter work week for less pay. It makes your management ask “what other work can you think of to fill your 40 hours to show us you deserve to keep this full time job?” So I wouldn’t blame the workers here.

      1. When will the 40 Hour Workweek Die off?*

        That’s true! Some management teams love busy work. And yeah, individuals definitely don’t have an incentive to say they could get the job done in fewer hours.

        1. Overeducated*

          Yup. I think in addition to busy work, some inefficient processes exist for the sake of accountability – essentially, adding extra steps in order to ensure multiple human checks and very thorough documentation. That isn’t inherently bad, there may be good reasons to value accountability over efficiency, but it sure gums up the works. This is definitely something covered in the Graeber book recommended above :)

          1. When will the 40 Hour Workweek Die off?*

            Lmao, I recently saw the procedure guide for giving participants in a program their $5 gift card incentive. It had literally 20 steps and 3 management signatures involved. The director of that program LOVES bureaucracy and “working hard” and has outright said he has the best “worth ethic” in the company. It’s so stupid. (Personally, I think laziness is behind a lot of the best innovation.)

            1. Overeducated*

              Yeah, it kind of makes you wonder when the procedures to prevent waste and fraud cost a whole lot more than the waste itself would! It’s not inherently bad, like for instance if there is any kind of potential safety risk, but I wouldn’t insist it’s inherently good either.

      2. Anon for this*

        Currently I’m in #4 where our only automation is a ticketing system. We’re expected to do the work of 4 or 5 people without any changes to the cumbersome procedures. Many co-workers are putting in massive overtime from home – like sending emails at 11 pm.

    5. teapot terroir*

      I dunno, because no one wants to be paid half their salary? Employers exploit their workers (this is what capitalism is, ain’t no secret) and employees are trying to make enough to live ~”comfortably” and play a fundamentally losing game. Most people won’t get the same wage for fewer hours, they’ll become unwillingly under-employed (especially in the kind of factory/shift work that doesn’t allow for reddit/AAM surfing). Sure, the disparity between service and office work is stark.

      I’m with you all the way, but most people aren’t down for the general strike(s) and mini-revolutions required for such a huge paradigm shift to occur. Class solidarity y’all, we gotta help everybody.

  153. Steggy Saurus*

    Last year my academic workplace held a series of mandatory diversity sessions. Then I was voluntold for membership on a DEI (diversity, equity, & inclusion) committee. And now the committee is sponsoring a (mandatory? who knows?) “Undoing Racism” workshop. This isn’t just, “hey everyone, people are different, let’s respect each others’ differences and get along” kind of stuff. This is “all white people are inherently racist, our definition of racism is the only acceptable one” kind of workshop that asks questions like, “Why do you like being white” and pushing everyone to be “community organizers.”

    Regardless of one’s opinion on the subject, these types of workshops are inherently personal, with lots of feelings being shared with ones’ co-workers. Even if it’s something I agree with, I do not share my personal feelings and beliefs on serious topics with co-workers, nor do I necessarily want to know about the personal feelings and beliefs of my co-workers. I consider them none of my employer’s business as long as I am performing my job well and not discriminating against anyone.

    The way I look at it, I have five options: 1) say nothing to management, attend and make up stuff 2) say nothing, attend and refuse to participate (saying something like “I do not share these kinds of things with my co-workers” if called upon) 3) ask if it’s really mandatory (I believe it’s implied that it’s mandatory) 4) just don’t show up and ask for forgiveness instead of permission or 5) express my opinions on this to management and take the consequences.

    What would you do? I’m leaning towards either option two or four.

    1. Jess*

      “as long as I am performing my job well and not discriminating against anyone”

      I thought I wasn’t discriminating against anyone, then I learned more about systemic racism and unconscious bias and other such things and realized that there is more to it. If you work with human beings, if you build things that human beings use, if you hire human beings — there’s probably *something* you can learn in a well-put-together “Undoing Racism” workshop, and apply in your work to make your workplace more equitable, even without sharing anything personal. So I vote for 6) go to the workshop, and 7) if it’s not too late, use your role on the committee to advocate for building a workshop that respects boundaries like yours.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        Thanks, Jess. I’ve read plenty about the topic (going so far as to read the book White Fragility) and attended other similar workshops. I happen to disagree quite strongly with the premises and the usefulness of this type of outlook, though I don’t feel the need to share that with my colleagues, who I respect. If I could just sit there quietly and listen, it would be one thing, but I haven’t found one of these sessions yet (and I’ve read about several different companies that do this sort of consulting) where they don’t invade people’s personal space. It’s all about “doing the hard work,” which apparently involves oversharing!

        1. Argh!*

          In that case, you should be honest with whomever is in charge of this thing and tell them that you will have a hard time selling it because you disagree with it. State your reasons for disagreeing. They may be able to (gently) show you where you may be wrong, or have ideas for how to participate without oversharing.

          I have been to some of these things that were very well done. In one, the presenter asked the people who happen to be left-handed to describe the ways that living in a right-handed world have made their lives inconvenient. The right-handed people in the room were very surprised by some of the comments. It’s more than just having to buy left-handed scissors.

          1. valentine*

            This is “all white people are inherently racist, our definition of racism is the only acceptable one”
            If you’re white, yet think white people aren’t inherently racist, how many generations back in your family do you go before admitting someone was racist and why do you think they were superhuman and didn’t pass that on? There are studies showing white infants are racist and white people have equal empathy for a blank wall and Black people. Non-Black people shouldn’t get to define racism (there were commenters here who think Becky is an anti-white slur), especially anti-Blackness, and they should have to take Jane Elliott’s Blue eyes-Brown eyes course.

    2. Psyche*

      Since you are on the committee, you could try bringing up the psychology of changing peoples minds and how sometimes workshops like those proposed will actually make people more entrenched in their views. Things like the backfire effect and myside bias may be helpful. Generally, you don’t want people to feel attacked and vulnerable or odds are they will get defensive and entrenched in their views. That is the opposite of what the committee would want.

      1. MsM*

        Throwing in that you’ve read up on the subject and attended similar workshops in the past might be helpful here, since it backs up that you’re not just dismissing the approach out of hand.

        1. Steggy Saurus*

          If I decide to meet with my supervisor about it, I will definitely take this advice. I’m definitely not one to dismiss out of hand – I like to understand things before I disagree with them. Or rather, I may have an initial visceral reaction, but I try to temper that with knowledge before expressing my opinion.

    3. Anon DEI practitioner*

      Well… as a person who manages DEI programming, if one of our staff wrote your post I’d be flagging them as someone who needed more support and/or a watchful eye. If you refused to participate it would be a very significant red flag that you might be out-of-sync with the organization on its beliefs and approach to equity and inclusion.

      It is absolutely OK to be uncomfortable with or skeptical of DEI programming. Most of it, to be honest, is really badly done, and can be actively harmful to people of color and other marginalized groups.

      We do start with the assumption that our organization is racist, because it exists in a society that has systematically built power and wealth for white folks by exploiting people of color. (For example, my organization is a nonprofit with an endowment that came from an 1800s railroad investor, which means that our money came directly from land stolen from Native people. It’s not subtle… I have a salary because Native people were murdered. It is on us to grapple with that, and make decisions that are informed by it.)

      Organizational change starts with individual change. So we ask people to examine the cultural lenses that they bring to their work, and that’s personal.

      1. Steggy Saurus*

        And this is why I am pseudonymous on a web forum, because I disagree that my opinion needs to raise any flags.

        I like vegetables. Let’s pretend that my employer decided that promoting a vegetable-rich diet was important and they wanted to offer a workshop on doing that. A workshop that involved deep personal feelings and personal experiences with vegetables. I would be just as much against a workshop like that devoted to vegetables, even though I’m a big fan of them, as I would be a DEI workshop. I sincerely do not think it’s the employer’s business to push random strangers who happen to work together to discuss these things.

        I’ll add that during the other way-too-personal diversity workshops, many staff members went to HR afterwards and expressed their concern about the oversharing. And yet a year or so later, another intensely personal workshop has been scheduled.

        Regarding the mission of my employer, it’s hard to say. I am absolutely fine with diversity and inclusion (equity as opposed to equality is another matter). Let’s just say I myself am keeping an eye out for the tipping point at which I can no longer square my beliefs with their vision.

        1. Jess*

          I hear your concern with overly personal workshops, Steggy Saurus. How do -you- propose that your workplace, and workplaces in general, address systemic racism?

        2. Overeducated*

          I think the only way your analogy works is if you or one of your co-workers *is* a vegetable. Then you, or they, might feel like other people may be able to keep their “feelings” about vegetables out of the workplace, but when you ARE a vegetable, all people’s vegetable issues can jump out at you any time wherever you go. It’s not really accurate to call something “personal” when it affects people in their work environments. I’d recommend trying to reframe it in your mind as something that is less about revealing you and your personal beliefs and more about dissecting the larger, very public systems we all live in.

          That said, I have been in workshops that had intensely personal questions, and I’ve had lots of training in the “arc of dialogue” approach to sensitive topics, and I think there are ways to do it more safely and ways to do it less safely. The thing is, if you’re going to get really personally, people have to be ok with being there and they have to be comfortable with each other. If you’re not there voluntarily, then maybe you could ask to have groups sorted so that people on the same team are not all in the same room together; sometimes there are tears and strong emotions, sometimes people worry about saying things “wrong,” it’s understandable to feel uncomfortable risking yourself that way with the people you’re going to have to work with immediately after.

          If the facilitator is asking questions that feel uncomfortably personal when you haven’t gotten comfortable with sharing less fraught stuff with the other people in the workshop, then…well, I’d wonder why they are pushing people hard. If that is what happened last time, and multiple people complained to your HR, you might want to talk with your management about whether any other potential facilitators might be a better fit for your office.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      I think you mentioned something important in your follow-up comments. You said that other co-workers found the questions/discussions in previous workshops to be intrusive or overly personal as well.

      This makes me think it’s not so much (or not only) about the topic or your own attitudes about race, but that there’s an overlapping issue of trust. That the staff feel they are being put on the spot to give certain types of answers, or be penalized for not performing/conforming to expectations.

      I’m not sure how to address that on the organizational level. On the personal level, when I’m in a position where I am expected to give a “deep” or thoughtful response to someone I don’t trust, I fall back on nodding seriously and saying things like, “Wow, that’s a lot to take in.” Or “This is important stuff, I’m going to need some time to process it.”

      If the company wants to have productive discussions about culture, they need to start with building trust, and if employee complaints are met with more of the same stuff they complained about, then they aren’t building trust.

    5. NON*

      Honestly, while I think that education on unconscious bias is important in ways that we don’t necessarily understand in advance, it sounds like your workplace is doing this in a way that is creating hostility towards the concept. I would also be very uncomfortable going through personal beliefs and biases in front of my coworkers, however willing I am to examine them otherwise. You might have better luck approaching things from that angle than from the “none of my employer’s business” angle.

      1. Darren*

        I definitely found the unconscious bias training at my work interesting, but I can’t say it really changed anything (most of the biases they raised I was well aware of although there were a couple that were interesting) and they had an interesting little test with a trustworthiness of various faces which everyone basically got results showing bias toward their own groups (except me who ended up with a fractional bias against white men which happens to be my group but perfectly fair everywhere else).

        But this also sounds a lot more balanced than the above as while the premise was everyone is subject to unconscious biases they literally meant everyone not just white people.

  154. DAMitsDevon*

    Hi, I was wondering if anyone has advice for getting back into the groove at work after being hospitalized? I’ve been back at work for just a week (working remotely from my parents’ house though, since my mobility is a bit limited and I still need to undergo quite a bit of treatment over the next few weeks/months). I feel like I’m doing things at a slower pace than normal and I’m not sure if this is normal considering I was in the hospital for almost 3 weeks, or if I need to give myself a kick in the pants.

    1. irene adler*

      You’ve been hospitalized-for 3 weeks. So you’ll need time to recuperate.
      Be patient with yourself.

    2. Asenath*

      What does your doctor say? When I was turned loose from the hospital after surgery, I was initially euphoric and thought I could jump right back into my normal life. And I discovered pretty quickly that my doctor’s advice about rest and not lifting anything over a very small weight were right on.

      (NB It is a very bad idea to move shortly after being released from hospital).

    3. LQ*

      You were in the hospital for almost 3 weeks…you need to give yourself a break! Especially if you need treatment etc. You are in recovery mode. Recovery mode is not kick in the pants for being a bit slow. Recovery mode is your body and brain are very VERY busy…recovering. That’s how healing works, it takes a lot of energy. Definitely give yourself a break. I’d never expect anyone who was just back from the hospital to hit the ground running.

    4. LawBee*

      I missed roughly 2 1/2 weeks recently due to a back injury, and it definitely took me more than “just a week” back to get up to speed. I didn’t pull a full workday until late in week 2, and I was absolutely exhausted afterwards.

      You’re fine. It’s normal! You’re still healing. Don’t push yourself too much, but if you’re still crawling along in a month, then I would look to see if it’s inertia or a medical issue.

    5. Quandong*

      I found it took much longer than I expected to be back to my pre-hospitalization/surgery work energy. Please be patient with yourself while you are still recovering and gaining strength.

      I suggest you ask your doctor what to expect with regards to your energy levels and mental focus during this time. Ask them to list some signs that would show you are pushing yourself too hard too soon, so you can make adjustments if necessary.

      Your health and recovery is so much more important than replicating the pace of your work prior to hospitalization and treatment. I hope all goes very well for you.

  155. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    The distant family member I mentioned last week who didn’t like his job: he quit, abruptly. Then apparently his boss screamed at him, so he screamed back. Sounds toxic. Then, the coworkers who never talked to him suddenly invite him to happy hour (after excluding him for 4 months) because now they see he’s not his toxic boss. Which leaves him jobless at the moment, but hopefully he’ll find something. My worry (also echoed by 3 other family members) is that his idea of a perfect job is an instantly perfect Instagrammable one, where there are no worries and magic unicorns poop sunshine (well you know what I mean). And the real world isn’t always that; sure there’s unicorns with sunshine but maybe they show up 2x a week–or maybe there are smelly donkeys and alpacas too friendly that nip your hair. The world isn’t perfect, and folks think he needs to be realistic. What would you tell him?

    Also, my workplace is friendly but a tad isolated. Some telework random days or stick to their desks so I might only say hi to 2 people in a whole day. Or at most, 16 during meeting days. A coworker came by asking if I was interested in an ultimate Frisbee team, so I said yes :)

    1. Argh!*

      In my experience, you never eliminate problems by changing jobs (or apartments or relationships or favorite eatery). You just swap out one set of problems for another.

      While job-hunting, he should consider therapy to prevent PTSD from Ex-Job from making it harder to get along in New-Job (or even get New-Job).

      1. valentine*

        I would leave him to his fantasy. If I enjoyed spending time with him or staying in touch, I would do that, but no venting and I wouldn’t give him advice.

    2. The Rain In Spain*

      I consider myself very fortunate to have a job I love. Is it perfect? No. What makes me happy here? I enjoy the actual work I get to do (most of the time- more on that) and I like my immediate coworkers and chain of command. Am I always excited to go in? Of course not! Sometimes people (whether internal or external) are frustrating and there are certain aspects of my role I don’t enjoy (like following up with people for what feels like the 10k time), but overall I get to do the type of work I enjoy with nice people.

      ANY job is going to have some grunt work or aspects that aren’t your favorite, that’s just the way it is, but I found work that I enjoy doing (most of the time) and a culture/fit that works well for me, and I am much happier than I was in my last role. I am sure there are people for whom what’s more important are the benefits, or ease/complexity of work, or networking opportunities, etc. I would recommend that he consider what things are MOST important to him and proceed with his search accordingly.

  156. Reluctant Manager*

    Anybody have experience working for a company that’s just filed for reorganization under Chapter 11?

    It seems like there’s a good chance the divisions will be sold off to better homes while the corporate tree withers, which is fine. But it’s hard on us not to know anything and harder not to be able to communicate with some of our vendors, with whom we have ongoing relationships.

    Advice welcome! Thanks!

  157. Où est la bibliothèque?*

    Where is Hellmouth? I need my weekly lunchtime “sure…that’s definitely true and not hugely exaggerated for the attention and sympathy” novella!

    1. Cheesesticks*

      I was just thinking the same thing! Been refreshing for the past hour looking for her post. :)

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Same!
      I’ve decided to assume she is on a great job interview where the HM gets on their hands and knees begging her to come work for them for a 100% pay raise.
      Now I will feel really bad if she reads this and was actually at the ER getting a tetanus and rabies shot because she was bitten by a member of the Squirrel Army.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I assumed the squirrels would be on her side. Maybe she’s teamed up with the woodland creatures to take on her boss, and the whole place is in the process of collapsing back into the earth. Someone should check the news.

        1. Anono-me*

          Oh, now I have this vision of Snow White from the Disney movie with a bunch of squirrels and other woodland creatures in medieval armor singing while they march along to take on the Evil Queen.

      2. Pebbles*

        Maybe McGruff stole her red Swingline stapler and Hellmouth decided that was the last straw.

      1. leya*

        yeah, this comment seemed unkind to me. even assuming that she was exaggerating, that would reflect more on her than on commenters giving their sympathy. and believing that she’s not exaggerating (which i do!), it must feel disheartening to see people dismissing her experiences.

        2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          It kind of sucks, but I also can’t necessarily blame people. Last week I was attacked by a resident, every week before that is some horrible office dysfunction or wildlife showdown or apartment fire or god knows what. It’s why I try not to talk about my job IRL unless it’s with friends who have known me since before I worked here. It sounds bonkers. Listing the stuff over here on Fridays is pretty much the only time I can really catalogue the worst of the crazy, which entertains some people, irritates others, but also lets me keep track of it all and never start believing that any of it is normal or acceptable.

          1. leya*

            well, i certainly hope you’re able to keep perspective! and as entertaining as your updates are, and as well-written as they are, i (like a lot of people) am most waiting for the update that says you’re out of there. best of luck!!

          2. anon24*

            I think if it was LESS crazy I might disbelieve you but I just don’t see how any rational human being could make this stuff up. It’s too crazy to be fake. Please write a book when this is all said and done (hopefully soon!). I now think of you every time I drop my rent check off at the leasing office.

          3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

            Hi Hellmouth!

            I’ve also had jobs like that so I 100% know how you feel and believe you’re not lying. I was in a whole dysfunctional field and it’s basically to the point where I have only a few friends I can talk about work with, because people think there’s something wrong with *me* and not that my line of work attracts disaster stories.

            I look forward to your update whenever you’re able to do it.

          5. Jules the 3rd*

            Even if it’s not true, I enjoy the read. I kinda hope it’s not true, because it’s way too much suckage for anyone, but I suspect it is true because People Can Suck.

      2. Danger: GUMPTION AHEAD*

        I 100% believe her. One of my friends works in property management and Hellmouth’s stories are only slightly more insane , but that is only because my friend’s manager and colleagues are slightly less insane than Hellmouth’s

    5. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      We had a surprise staff meeting and a few other things that kept me pretty far removed from anything with internet access, and now that I’m back at my desk I have a few projects that need to be tied up before I can start my next novella. Guess you’ll just have to doubt my sincerity a little later on today!

      1. Happy Lurker*

        I don’t doubt your truthfulness and I am waiting for your update. Thanks for posting your updates. In the meantime good luck with your day and your attempt to get out.

      2. GRA*

        I was just scrolling through the open thread looking for your weekly post and was concerned to not see it! I don’t doubt your updates at all. Every week I have my finger’s crossed that your weekly post will be that you found a new job!!! (But until then I hope you know you have an online community supporting you!)

      3. CupcakeCounter*

        Oh no! I didn’t read the original comment fully (just searched on Hellmouth, saw the where is…I’ve been waiting and hit reply) and completely missed the dig. I’m really sorry if my comment up thread indicated that I doubt your situation and hope you continue to post.

        1. Pebbles*

          Same! I love reading Hellmouth’s updates and was so anxious when it wasn’t here I just hit reply. Team Hellmouth all the way! (Wait, that doesn’t sound right…)

          2. TooTiredToThink*

            We’re the Scooby Gang.

            And yeah; I missed the dig too on first read through. But after knowing what my apartment complex has gone through and I live in a sane area with mostly sane residents and having lived not too far from Hellmouth’s location and knowing how insane people can be where I used to live – I fully believe her. I figure a few things are written with a bit more humor than actually happened but that its a coping mechanism to deal with all the garbage that truly has (especially the stuff we don’t even know about). Hellmouth has a great voice and I really hope that she’s able to continue her writing after she finds a new job. Just maybe stuff that is actually fictional.

      4. Merci Dee*

        For a time after my parents and I moved back to Alabama from Mississippi, we lived in an apartment complex is a mid-sized town. My dad managed to get some part-time work with their maintenance department while he was looking for another full-time position. Wow. If I didn’t know the kind of person my dad was, I would have sworn he was lying about 3/4 of the stories he told us about things he saw/heard when he was on routine maintenance calls to the residences. And the manager at that complex was a handful, too. Not in the absolute rage-inducing way that yours is, mind you. She was just still a major party girl even though she was in her 40s, and shared way too many stories that started with, “you won’t believe what happened at this party last weekend ….”. So, yeah. I find your updates shocking because these people are just way off in the deep end at this point, but not too terribly surprising.

      5. kittymommy*

        Yeah, FWIW, I don’t doubt any of this mess of a worksite or the insanity of your boss (I’ve worked for a few myself). And I love the daily Friday updates – though not enough for you to stay there.

      6. Hopeful Future Accountant*

        I’m so glad you’re all right! I was getting worried since I hadn’t seen your post! My mom was, too! I’ve been reading your updates to her every week!

      7. Amber Rose*

        I don’t doubt you either, and I hope you continue to come back and document the madness as long as it doesn’t stress you out.

        Still got my fingers and toes crossed for your escape.

      8. Forrest Rhodes*

        Add me to Team Hellmouth Believer, no question about it. My own experiences with workplaces like this one happened a long time ago, but they still give me nightmares.
        I’m also on Team Hellmouth Supporter … good on ya for your firm grip on (what’s left of) your sanity, and thank you for your updates. They generate in me a response that’s equal parts sympathetic laughter, solidarity, and “Oh, my sweet baby Jesus.”
        I hope that soon you’re at a job that involves people who have a better connection with rational behavior. (Your current squirrels I’m actually okay with; they’re just being squirrels, and most squirrels are weird anyway.)

      9. TexasRose*

        I totally believe what you’ve been reporting. I used to live in Texas, and took time in the late 90s to read the “standard” rental agreement there. It included clauses like:
        (paraphrased from memory)
        “you cannot keep poisonous reptiles in your apartment”
        “all kitchen trash must be removed at least once each week”
        I shudder to think of the incidents that caused these to be added as STANDARD to the statewide agreements…

    7. Damn it, Hardison!*

      I kinda feel bad about looking forward to her updates, but they are so good in a cringe-inducing way!

      1. Damn it, Hardison!*

        I did not read the original post all the way through. I see Hellmouth’s posts as a funny, clever way to make the best of a crappy situation. I couldn’t care less if they are 100% true or 100% made up, because they are entertaining. And, after all of the crazy stuff I’ve read about here, none of what she’s written sounds out of the bounds of possibility.

      1. Tigger*

        100% agree with you. I have friends who lived in an apartment in suburban Louisianna and their stories about their neighbors there are insane.

    9. Amber Rose*

      You know, being kind to others and not a sarcastic jerk is actually one of the commenting rules.

    10. Lithic*

      What would be the best way to address the author of the Hellmouth saga? ‘Hellmouth’ seems a little rude – she is not her workplace. ‘Hellmouth lady’ doen’t seem to hit the right note either. Is she more a Buffy battling her workplace daemons? Has she discovered previously unknown powers and is more like Willow? Or perhaps she’s more or a Guardian like Giles and is the go to source for knowledge to fight evil? Thoughts?

      2. Amber Rose*

        Hellmouth Guardian, as one who prevents the chaos from spilling into the rest of the world and destroying us all? Or maybe Hellmouth Warrior? It’s gotta be a battle just to get up and go to work at a place like that.

        I also like Hellmouth Hellion for the alliteration but I fear that might be a little rude.

  158. bookends*

    Does anyone have any tips on reference etiquette? I’ve never provided a reference before because I’m not a manager, but I told a less senior co-worker (“Fred”) who mentioned he was looking for new jobs that I could help him out with references if he needed one.

    Fred ended up contacting me on a Sunday to ask for a reference. I said yes, but he didn’t specify that the hiring manager (“Sarah”) expected a call that day, so I didn’t respond to his text with her number until later in the day. I asked if she indicated when I should call and he said today. (He’d also texted my work phone and said “hey can you call this person today” but I don’t always check my work phone on weekends.) I tried calling Sarah after that and was unable to reach her. I ended up trying to call her maybe 2 more times that week, once unprompted and once when she tried calling while I was in a meeting. She also had texted before she called to let me know when she planned to call, so I texted the next day to try and set up a time to talk and just got a response saying she was out of town. I assumed that meant she was out of the office, so I sent another text the following Monday and never heard from her again. My coworker told me about a week later that he didn’t get the job.

    The whole thing feels super awkward, and I’m wondering if I should have done anything differently. How aggressive should a reference provider be about trying to get a hold of a hiring manager? I could have called her every day, but I think I’m trained from job searching to not aggressively pursue hiring managers…is it different when you’re giving a reference?

    1. Jess*

      Usually it’s the hiring manager or HR who reaches out initially, not the reference, so this sounds like an odd situation from the get-go. I’d be prompt about returning a call, offer/ask for good times to connect, basically make a good-faith effort and don’t be the one to drop the ball, but remember that -they- are the one who needs something from you.

      1. valentine*

        You went way above and beyond. He needs to rein it in and especially not to expect same-day action. Can you restrict him to your work number? (Because this is work.)

    2. Venus*

      I have done reference checks. If I called and no one answered, then I sent them an email asking them to call me. No different than any other work interactions, and agreed that I wouldn’t expect someone doing a reference to call all the time (I assume someone providing a reference is doing me a favour, by giving an honest opinion of someone without requiring any compensation (we don’t pay references for their time), so I make an effort to be easy to reach).

      I could be wrong, but I would think that there were other reasons Fred didn’t get the job. Maybe your workplace is different, but we wouldn’t expect to do references on a Sunday, and it seems that you made a reasonable effort to get in contact.

      1. bookends*

        I think there were some circumstances to the Sunday thing – I guess he’d originally put his previous manager down as a reference but they both couldn’t get a hold of him all week. So I assumed she wanted to talk to a reference ASAP and make a decision in the next few days. (We also work in community organizing/non-profits so Sunday work isn’t super out of the ordinary – I don’t work on Sundays too often right now, but I interviewed for this job on a Sunday so it’s not uncommon.)

  159. Greener Pastures?*

    I wonder if anyone else has found themselves in this kind of situation.

    I realize I’m lucky to have the job I do. I’ve worked for a stable, well-run organization almost 10 years. My job is in my chosen field, and I have a good salary. I regularly get raises and bonuses. We have a casual dress code. I have great insurance and a generous retirement plan. My commute isn’t bad, and I like most of my coworkers.

    And yet I find myself wondering if I should leave. Is there somewhere better? Could I be earning more money? Could I find a less stressful job? Stress is the main reason I think about leaving. My field is a stressful one anyway, but this particular job has me stressed out to the point where it affects me physically. I already have an anxiety disorder, and this job exacerbates it.

    I’m single, and I have student loans and a mortgage. Taking a pay cut isn’t an option. I’m scared that if I took another job, I could be laid off at some point. And it’s not like I’m earning six figures or anything, but I feel like I may not be able to find something comparable to what I earn here (based on job listings I’ve seen with similar jobs to mine that disclose the salary range).

    I feel like I’m stuck, but I also feel like I have it good and that I would be foolish to leave an overall good job for something that would likely make my commute worse, not have a casual dress code, and probably not have the same quality insurance and retirement benefits I have now. I’m young enough that I have a good 25 years before I can retire. The prospect of staying here that long seems alarming, but I can’t seem to make the leap to something else either.

    Help…

    1. chica*

      Well, it never hurts to look around right? You can keep an eye out for something different and you can be very choosy – make sure you like the salary, culture, benefits, etc before saying yes.

      And since you specifically mention stress, that makes me think you should be looking, or at least open to opportunities that might come along.

      1. Greener Pastures?*

        Thanks–that’s kind of where I am. I’m open to the right opportunity if it comes along. So far, it hasn’t. I haven’t seen anything that’s worth leaving what I have now in my current job. Which is why more and more I’m starting to think this is the best there is. I don’t want to make a mistake and leave an overall good job for something else, only for the new job to be a disappointment. But I’ll continue to look.

      1. Greener Pastures?*

        Yes. I’ve done salary research on my own for the area where I live as well as followed trade organizations for my industry. I believe I’m being paid fairly. The trick is that it’s variable in my industry. I don’t have the best title, but I’m not in an entry level position anymore. I’m mid-level (non-management, but exempt from overtime) and was promoted and received a salary and title boost a few years ago. But sometimes I see listings out there that have better job titles, but then I read the descriptions and realize they’re entry level positions that ought to have a job title such as Teapot Coordinator instead of Teapot Manager.

    3. FD*

      I have anxiety as well (currently controlled panic disorder and generalized anxiety disorder).

      If I were in your shoes, I would think about a few things.

      1) What, exactly, is so stressful about this job? When I’m really overwhelmed, it feels like everything is stressing me out, but when I dig down, invariably it comes down to some flavor of “I’m afraid I will mess up and [x] will be upset with me.” When I frame it that way, it feels more manageable. For instance, I can think about what’s the worst that can happen if [x] does get upset, and/or decide what small steps I can do to handle the issue in front of me.

      2) Are there parts of your job that really bother you and that you might be able to get off your plate? For example, let’s say that preparing one particular report is only a small part of your duties but causes 90% of your stress. Would your boss be open to restructuring so you had to do less of that? Are there things that could be done so that it would be less stressful to do that thing?

      3) If this particular role isn’t right for you, are there other roles within the same company that might be better and/or that might expose you less to the particular stressors you have?

      4) Is the rest of your plan to handle anxiety going well? For example, if you do therapy, is your access to that stable? If you take medication, do you feel like the dosage is working for you? Are you happy with your other methods of self-care (e.g. social time, exercise, etc.)? If not, could you improve any parts of those plans to try and see if that makes the job part more tolerable?

      5) You think you might need to take a pay cut if you went anywhere else and you worry about being laid off due to the nature of your field. Is it possible for you to set up a separate emergency fund and divert some of your income into that? I completely understand this may not be practical for every situation. However, I have found that if I try that trick and pretended that I had taken a pay cut, it both let me build up some money to escape a rough job, and it also let me get used to a lower pay rate.

      6) You talk about how overwhelming it feels to stay here for 25 more years. Does it feel any better if you don’t think about it that way and focus on a smaller time scale? For example, focus on staying for this month/quarter/year. I find that I get much more overwhelmed if I think about time scales that are too big, but when I break it down to smaller time frames, it feels less scary.

      1. Greener Pastures?*

        Thank you, FD, for the solid advice and for sharing that you also have anxiety. I’m going to save your suggestions and think about them when I start feeling overwhelmed.

    4. Jess*

      This sounds like a great time to work with a good, experienced career counselor. Someone who can help you do a bunch of armchair exploring that will get you some clear information and answers without leaving where you are, and set you up for success if you decide to take a leap.

      1. Greener Pastures?*

        I think my college allows alumni to use their career planning office. Something to consider anyway.

    5. Steggy Saurus*

      How do you feel about a complete change of careers? That’s something I’ve been toying with for the last year or two as my field goes in a direction I’m not comfortable with. I’m beginning to think some people just aren’t meant to do the same thing for 45 years, day in and day out. Spicing things up halfway through might be worth it (if you can do it safely enough for your pocketbook!).

      1. Greener Pastures?*

        Mmm…not on the table. I love what I do, and I’ve finally progressed in my career beyond entry level. I’m not willing to start over doing something else. I love what I do, I just think there may be a better place out there for me to do it. Somewhere that offers more work/life balance and less stress. Maybe there’s not, but I’m going to keep my eyes open for an opportunity.

    6. Reluctant Manager*

      What about telling your manager you’d be interested in trying some different challenges? I’ve worked at the same company for 10+ years but had 4 very different jobs.

      1. Greener Pastures?*

        Maybe. I did try out some new projects last year, and she is very open and positive about that. It paid off in my annual review. We have talked before about my interest in trying some new things.

    7. Mazzy*

      I had mid-career malaise earlier this year as well. I got to the third round of interviews for a “dream job” that was glamorous and visible and with a fancy title for the boring work I do. It wasn’t so dreamy after that day of interviewers. I started to feel like I was going to be a middle aged Andy in Devil Wears Prada instead of a full fledged professional, and I also realized that big glamorous company does not pay more than what I currently make, which was a huge reality check. I stopped wasting hours applying to jobs after that experience. I spent so many days looking for job listings and applying to get to that point, only to be disappointed. It would’ve been better to put the energy into my current job.

      1. Greener Pastures?*

        I have a sneaky feeling that another employer isn’t going to be the magic answer. There are so many positives about my current employment situation. The stress is awful, and the workload is daunting. But the pay, benefits, and company culture are all so good that I hesitate making a leap. I am trying to carve out a little more work/life balance for myself and find ways to reduce my stress.

        I’ve seen several promising leads in the past year or so only to do more research and find that the salary and/or benefits aren’t worth leaving my current job. I’m not miserable, I’m just a little antsy wondering if there’s something better.

  160. Argye*

    This happened years ago, but still sometimes gives me nightmares. I’m wondering what I should have done.

    It was at a weekly department meeting, with Former Horrible Boss (FHB), Golden Child (GC) who could do no wrong, and three other department members, one of whom reported directly to me.
    For some reason the Golden Child decided he wasn’t going to let me speak. Every time I opened my mouth, he would jump in and make and additional comment. Everyone knew I was trying to say something, but he would literally interrupt me as soon as I made any kind of sound. This went on for about five minutes. When I finally managed to say, “Does anyone want to hear what I have to say?” FHB responded, “We don’t know, we haven’t heard it yet.” She was laughing. I was nearly in tears.
    At the time, I was so nonplussed that I kept just trying to make my comment and not confront GC over his obvious bullying. I have no doubt the response would have been that he was just joking, and couldn’t I take a joke?
    Years later, I still have fantasies about storming out of the meeting. It took close to a year at my new job, after having been laid off from a tenured position, to be able to speak in a meeting. I’ve only run into FHB once since then, and refused to speak to her (this is the tip of the iceberg about how she treated me), and GC not at all. I’m not sure how I would respond to having to interact with them again, which may happen.
    What should I have done?

    1. Argh!*

      Be polite, say nothing, and resolve to find another job.

      I do that several times a day at CurrentHorribleJob. Sometimes all you can do is nothing, and remind yourself that sometimes it’s not about you, it’s about them. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.

      1. Mazzy*

        Just finding another job is not practical advice, even though it gets handed out here all of the time. It’s easy when you work in retail at a mall and can switch stores, but most of us are pretty stuck where we are.

        I’d definitely not be “polite” in this situation. Why? The power play GB was doing clearly didn’t stop that way.

        1. valentine*

          It’s understandable if you need a fire-level threshold to leave a job, but people say they can’t possibly leave, then are fired or hospitalized and, suddenly, there are other possibilities. How long might Argye have survived without medical exhaustion? FHB and GC aren’t going to change and there’s no way to fight them without hurting yourself more. Even winning their indifference by not giving them the reaction they want is ultimately negative because the kind of person who leaves you alone if they can’t make you cry is horrid to work with.

    2. Jess*

      I think you did just fine. Kept your cool and didn’t give jerks/bullies the satisfaction of a reaction. There are times I -wish- I could pull that off.

    3. Armchair Analyst*

      Honestly I would have done Nothing Good and also would still be having nightmares over my actions several years later.

      I think you did The Best You Could’ve and obviously were the mature one in the room.

      Have you looked into Toastmasters? It’s actually kind of fun.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      In the moment? Nothing. Storming out might have made things worse (if that’s possible). Fantasy responses that occurred to me (and this is a fantasy really because there’s no way most or any people would keep their cool in this situation enough to say something cutting but not insubordinate or complainy):

      1) When you first realized he was intentionally cutting you off, start making motions as if you’re about to speak or nonsense sounds to prompt GC to say something to cut you off again. Get as obvious and ridiculous as you can before he gets there first.
      2) Continue talking despite GC with zero change in facial expression as if of course you will continue to speak even if no one else can hear you. Sit back when you’re done and not a second sooner. (I’ve actually done this, it’s more satisfying that allowing the interruption although it’s 50/50 whether anyone notices enough to ask you to repeat yourself)
      3) When FHB said “We don’t know, we haven’t heard it yet” you might have said “And why do you think that is?” to really emphasize the ridiculous power play. “Oh he’s just joking? Huh, because it came across as extremely rude and belittling, but if you say so.”

      When this happened to a colleague, it wasn’t deliberate (AFAIK) but it was excessive interruptions by two people within a few minutes of colleague trying to get a word in, and multiple people had to start breaking in to specifically invite colleague to say her piece. That’s kind of the best of all situations because it validates that your colleagues actually do want to hear from you, but I realize that doesn’t happen in toxic offices like the one you left.

  161. Not A Victim*

    Advice needed! I had a lovely informal interview with a potential new supervisor at a conference, and when I got back home she sent me a friend request on Facebook. I have decided to apply for the position. Should I unfriend her? And if you think I should, I would like to send her a message first explaining why. Any suggestions of what to say?

    (this potential new boss & I have belonged to the same association for years, so we have been casual acquaintances for a long time)

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I’d leave it for now. If you get hired there and she becomes your boss, then unfriend her and explain in person why.

    2. Jess*

      So much depends on how *you* use facebook. Do you use the settings for categorizing people? Because could be a perfect time to categorize her as “acquaintance” and lock down most of your content for “close friends only.” And then follow Eddie’s suggestion if you end up working together and want to keep Facebook work-free.

      1. Not A Victim*

        Thanks. I have made a point of not complaining about work on FB, and most of my shares have been puppies and kittens lately.

  162. EddieSherbert*

    I’m going nuts. Our customer support team has been short-staffed for several months now and is having a hard time finding qualified applicants to hire. We have about 2/3 the staff we should, and 1/3 of them have been here for less than 6 months (so they still need a decent amount of help).

    My department is one of several that helps cover the support line so they can get lunches and take vacations – I usually do 2 hours of phones a week. That’s been bumped up to 6 planned hours a week, plus filling in when needed, PLUS answering constant questions from the newer support staff because they’re still learning. We got to the point where my department now has a planned “help desk for support” person each day who sits by their cubes and monitors the internal chat room!

    So. I’m now spending a full day a week supporting Support PLUS the almost full day on the actual Customer Support line. Plus, you know, doing my actual 40 hour a week (yes, I’m salaried, that’s historically worked to my advantage…). I know it can’t be helped and they are doing their best but I hate work right now.

    Plus, whenever we bring in those new people, I know it’ll be at least another 6 months before everyone really even knows what they’re doing!

    1. ContemporaryIssued*

      My sympathies. Dealing with something very similar in my job, except they finally (finally!) after two months of utter chaos and lack of coverage got two new hires who seem competent enough to know what they’re doing and are picking up skills quickly. I partially trained both hires and their personalities match, too, so if they stay with us, they’ll make a great team together.

      These two chaotic months really showed me why the company needs to put more towards customer service. This means paying people more, supporting them more, making sure every change doesn’t make it significantly harder for them to do their jobs well. We want these people to stay and to do their jobs well. Our reputation really relies on it.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Here, here, ContemporaryIssued. I’ve always had a ton of respect for our Customer Support team (as I know when they get busy or calls go over, they might not even get their planned lunch hour), but this has really really emphasized that we need to do more to make it appealing to stay in the role more than a year (or two tops).

  163. That's Not My Job*

    Putting this in the work thread because I think it fits better than the weekend.

    There is an event put on by an organization’s volunteers that I really appreciated so I started volunteering at the event. The coordinator for the event saw my enthusiasm and started saying I should take over since they were honestly already checked out. I only agreed to after seeing them stroll in nonchalantly half an hour after the event was supposed to start. They promised they’d still be around to help me out. Of course they were still following their standards for volunteers and thought it was fine to show up late or leave early, or decide not to come at all without warning. I was annoyed by this but didn’t know how to bring it up since they used to be in charge and theoretically should know what works better than I would. This went on for over a year and I got used to it, just grateful for the time they did give. But lately I’ve had to correct a lot of what they were telling people about the organization. Turns out, they don’t actually have experience with the organization (as most of us do) and just wanted to help out. My expectation is that if you don’t know the rules of the organization, you either study them for the event or don’t answer those questions. Instead, this person was saying “oh that rule? It won’t apply to you, you’re fine!” To the very people the rule is trying to weed out. After wondering if I’d heard it correctly a few months ago, I decided it didn’t need to be addressed because they informed me they were looking at moving and with their track record, I expected I wouldn’t see them again before they moved. But last week they did show up, 15 minutes after start so I was already with clients and couldn’t have pulled them aside to talk. Later as I was taking a break between clients, I heard them clearly tell someone that the rule wouldn’t apply. This was my first break after a couple demanding clients, it had been a tough week, and I do not work in an environment where this type of issue comes up. I was… less than professional. My reaction was along the lines of *hands to side of face in horror* you can’t tell people that! They got defensive and asked for an example of why they can’t say that, I was caught off guard by that response and gave an example of someone who should have been accepted if they were given the right instructions but hadn’t been (this was the first case where I had wondered if I heard correctly). This is all, of course, still in front of the client who had been receiving their bad advice. I pivoted to explaining the proper procedure to the client and when I was done, the other volunteer was gone and I had to take care of all the remaining clients myself. By the end I was losing my voice but this was an abnormal event, usually three or four clients would come in total. I got a text saying I was mean and unprofessional and they wouldn’t be volunteering anymore. Considering I already expected them to move, it’s not much of a loss. I apologized for the way I handled it and said nothing about them not coming back. Thought I was fine with that outcome until I was crying an hour later. I stand by what I did to protect the clients, but it’s weird knowing I’m responsible for someone quitting.

    I know I could have handled this better, but how do I get enough practice in these situations to have the correct response in the moment, rather than after it’s already done?

    Note: my use of “clients” here isn’t quite correct but I’m trying to obscure the specifics to protect my privacy.

    1. Havarti*

      It was the ex event coordinator that was mentally checking out and giving bad info? If so, you didn’t make someone quit that already had one foot out the door. In any case, never coming back would be the best outcome.

      I don’t know that you can really practice but it would be good to have some mental scripts for “if X happens, do Y.” So if a volunteer is behaving badly in front of clients, intercept the volunteer with “Hey Wakeen, I need to borrow you for a second. Can you come with me?” Remove them to some place private and then proceed to address the behavior.

      The other issue is correcting the bad info the clients got. I don’t know if you have a website or brochure or something but there should maybe be a place to make the info available without relying on volunteers verbally imparting it. You might be able to find the clients again and politely explain what the real info or just let it drop until someone comes to you about it.

      But I’ve learned that no amount of scripts will address all the possible scenarios you can find yourself in. My control always slips when I’m stressed or tired. You did the best you could and you apologized afterwards. Don’t beat yourself up too much over it.

      1. valentine*

        You need standards for volunteers, and they need to be as high or higher than for employees. You can’t have hospital volunteers telling people incorrect vaccination schedules and you can weed this person out, if that makes sense. Doesn’t matter that they were in charge or anything else. They’re hurting, not helping (have they ever), and you shouldn’t tolerate it.

  164. Bee's Knees*

    We had someone come in to interview for a supervisor position last week. He discussed the salary range with the recruiter over the phone. Told her the range we offer was good for him. Sometime between then and his in person interview, he decided to ask for a salary that would be in line with his next promotion. He asked for over $20k more than we’re willing to pay for the role. And it’s not like he’s being offered that promotion at his current job. Can we say looking for a counteroffer?

  165. Lone Wolf*

    I’m on a team of about nine people, working on two separate but related software products. Three of us work on one product exclusively, three on the other, and three split their time equally between the two. The problem is that two of the three people who worked with me exclusively on one product have handed in their resignations recently. I’m not super worried, given that there are three people besides me who at least have some experience working part time on the product. But I do wonder if the two people who are leaving know something about the product that I don’t know.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Can you discuss with your manager or ask your resigning coworkers to go over things with you because you’re concerned about gaps in knowledge?

    2. Colette*

      I find that departures tend to go in waves – someone decides to leave, and that triggers everyone else to think about leaving, and then half the team is gone in a short period even if it’s been stable for a long time. So I doubt they know something about the product that you don’t know – but if you think there might be, why not ask them?

      1. Lone Wolf*

        That’s probably it, I suppose. I know a pretty obvious reason why their departures fall within a few weeks of each other. I just don’t know why they’re both leaving the same year. One had been at the company a long time and the other, just a single year.

  166. Elizabeth West*

    A video screening for a part-time office assistant job? (It was with an airline, but come on.) I think not. And there is no way to delete my profile from their website, or contact them. I don’t even want to fly them now.

    Good day, sir! I said GOOD DAY!

    2. Eleanor Rigby*

      Can I ask why you don’t want to do the interview? Maybe they do the video instead of in person?

    3. Miles*

      What’s wrong with a video interview? I’ve done several remote video interviews before. They’re a bit of a pain and not as good as an in-person one, but I definitely prefer them to a phone interview.

      1. Dragoning*

        It sounds like it might be a video submission thing, not like a Skype interview or something.

        1. WakeUp!*

          What makes you say that? I’m assuming a video screening is the video equivalent of a phone screening.

          1. Dragoning*

            …because of the strong reaction, honestly, and having seen these kinds of things before in job ads.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      It was a video submission via HireVue, post-application, not an actual Skype interview. I couldn’t withdraw because there is literally nowhere in the profile to do that and the emails they sent are no-reply.

      I got three emails–the first was the video instructions. The second and third came together, about seven minutes later. One was a “thank you for applying, we’ll be in touch,” and the third was an auto-rejection. I went back into my profile and noticed I’d checked Full-time on What kind of work are you looking for? So I guess it doesn’t matter anyway!

  167. Gina Linetti*

    This is far enough down the scroll that I doubt anyone will comment, but… *siigh*

    I’m 59 years old with significant mobility issues (arthritis in my knees that’s creeping upwards into my hips) and I’ve been looking for work for close to four years. My freelance writing career tanked back in 2015 (due to a lot of issues, some within my control, but most of them not) and despite all my efforts, it seems permanently dead.

    Last year (in fact, it will be a full year come April) I was forced to leave my home of 25 years and move in with a friend. It’s been a tough adjustment. She’s a doll and never makes me feel like an intruder, but I just can’t escape the feeling that she’d be happier if I weren’t here.

    I guess, bottom line, I’m just feeling useless. If I can’t find a job – four years of fruitless searching have hammered home that I’m basically unemployable – and I can’t write, what am I supposed to DO for the rest of my life?

    1. Anonforthis*

      Oh jeez, I’m so sorry. Are there volunteer opportunities you could pursue? At least something to keep you busy?
      I don’t know if you’ve tried to apply for disability assistance or if you’re qualified, but hopefully that’s an option you’ve looked into as well.
      I just want to say again that I’m sorry you’re going through this. Virtual hugs coming your way!

      1. Gina Linetti*

        I’ve put in volunteer applications all over town, but the one place that actually interviewed me said (as politely as they could) that they really couldn’t use someone with my mobility issues.

        Yes, I’ve tried to apply for disability, but my 10+ years of freelancing have bitten me here – I apparently don’t have enough “points” to qualify.

        I’m eligible for Social Security widow’s benefits (my husband died in 2009) when I turn 60 next year. I just hope I can hang in there until then. If the dear friend I’m currently living with hadn’t offered me a room in her house, I’d probably be living in my car.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t understand the advice to volunteer when a person needs income.

          @Karnythia Twitter has advice and courses on pitching/freelance writing.

          Have you looked into remote work? There are several threads here with people’s experiences.

    2. Argh!*

      Why are you unable to write? There are online free-lancing opportunities. They don’t pay a lot but they can boost your portfolio. You could also start a blog, which would give you an outlet and something to point to that would show that you’re continuing to do your “work” despite not having a job.

      Have you registered with a temp agency for secretarial work? If you can sit in a chair and type, you are employable. That would help you get some more recent experiences to add to your resume.

      They’re not supposed to discriminate against us baby boomers, but they do. The main thing we need to do is not buy into that mindset.

    3. Pebbles*

      For your job: Maybe look at getting a WFH type job such as data entry or proofreading? You may need to learn some new skills to do those but those aren’t going to be hard on your knees and won’t require transportation.

      For your living arrangement: I’m not sure what king of agreement you have with your friend (paying rent or utilities? Maybe not if you’ve been out of work for so long.) Are there chores around the house that you can pick up to make your friend’s life a little easier? Maybe you’re doing this already, but it’d help you feel useful, and it’d be a plus to your friend having you there. Also, you said she never makes you feel like an intruder, so perhaps your feelings are just due to being out of work and not being able to contribute. I wouldn’t worry so much about it and just do what you can. Hang in there!

    4. irene adler*

      I’m glad you have a friend that cares and has a room for you.

      I read a lot of technical stuff that could really use a professional writer’s touch. Wish those who produce user manuals, guides, in-house documentation etc, would hire someone who can actually write. Someone such as yourself.

    1. Anonforthis*

      I think you assess what you’d be looking for in a new job, and use that as your list of criteria in your search. You may not get everything you want, but you can decide which things are “must-have” and which things are “nice to have but not crucial.” You can’t predict everything, of course, but as you go through the interview process, try to be mindful and pay attention to any red flags. Don’t jump at something just out of desperation to get out of where you are now.

        1. Introvert girl*

          ‘There were things promised to me in the interview that ended up not being the case. Ex: overtime, flexible working time, bringing your dog to work,…There is also a big rotation and I’ m currently without a boss as he got fired.

      2. The Rain In Spain*

        THIS. Be very selective in the roles you apply for. Research the companies, read reviews, if you know people that work there ask them what their experience has been like, etc. What really helped me with my last (extensive) search after a fairly toxic environment was to remember that an interview was as much about ME finding the right fit, not just whether they wanted me/liked me/etc. That shift in thinking really helped me hone in on what I was looking for, and I really don’t see how I could be happier in my current role!

        1. Introvert girl*

          Lately I’ve come across a lot of companies that just flat out lie about the job, don’t care if you stay only six months. Last week I posted about the company that times bathroom breaks (but this I found out form an ex-employee). My current job gives me a lot of home-office time, which I really appreciate. But the job is in an open space, which drains me completely and I would prefer to work from home for good.
          @Rain in Spain: I will try your advise and do more research, ask more questions.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You can use this thought process for everything in life.

      What if you leave a relationship and then you never ever find someone else?

      What if you leave a cruddy apartment but the next one has bedbugs and cockroaches instead of just a noisy neighbor?

      What if you switch schools because you have issues with the staff but what if the new school has even worse professors?

      If you do that to yourself, you’ll be miserable forever. You put all that out in the universe to an extent and you form your own personal misery because you don’t take chances and always think the worse.

      All risks should be calculated and weighed out. You never know what is around the corner but chances are it’s not a monster, it’s not a cliff you’ll just fall right straight off of.

      “The evil you know vs the unknown” is a really is a huge hurdle to overcome and I suggest everyone fight that demon with all their might.

      I’ve taken risks and I left a toxic no good very bad horrid job for a “IDK what this place holds but at least I get another fighting chance.” moment last year. I’m happier than ever.

      Don’t live afraid. It’s no way to go through life.

      1. Introvert girl*

        I only have this problem with my current job, not with life itself. I wasn’t afraid to go backpacking through Asia or to move countries. The problem is, what if your job doesn’t suck, but you can’t see yourself going anywhere. The job has its perks, but it’s the same thing everyday. Maybe lately I’ve just come across really weird companies during interviews .

  169. coffeeforone*

    My new boss officially passed her probation period and I’m feeling so disappointed. It feels like she must’ve fudged something interview/resume-wise because she seems so woefully unprepared for a senior management position. She’s VERY eager but this plays out as suggesting shiny new ideas constantly (like every single project/meeting, she has an idea for “making it go viral” that is either totally unrealistic for us or so vague it’s nothing). There are many topics she continually says “I know nothing about that” when I know she’s received all project materials and been involved in several meetings, so at this point she’s just not listening or doing any work to understand. I’m tired of spending time and energy reexplaining something to her for the 5th or 6th time, or having her act like something is a brand new concept when it’s our biggest project and has been since she started.

    Myself and the 2 other direct reports she has have basically started coordinating behind the scenes to pool the nuggets of information that trickle from her sporadically – I’m all for “managing up” but I don’t think it’s supposed to feel like babysitting a toddler??
    I mentioned in a past Friday post that my coworkers did get a 360 review request and claim to have been candid, but I feel like we’re all just resigning ourselves to a shitty boss. I’m SO disappointed because I adore this job but know that a bad boss can really make or break things.
    Any advice, friends? I’m open to practical suggestions for addressing/managing the issues, or just advice on how to stay sane and patient.

    1. Mazzy*

      Don’t resign yourself. I’m dealing with this now but laterally to another manager. I have to calculate the opportunity costs of things they mess up and calculate the costs of their actual errors. It’s a pain but it makes me feel better when I can quantify what is going on. Your situations sound vaguer, but I’m sure you can quantify them in some way, maybe by using dates? Maybe keep track of bad suggestions or “I don’t recall that” comments and then a list of other times they were told the thing wouldn’t work, or where they were actually given the information. And be ready for a long fight because these things usually drag on for two years, though. You need to consider fighting it as part of your job.

      And do not lose your confidence, if they are acting useless and lost, don’t lower your standards for yourself. Always tel the truth, even if it doesn’t make them look or feel great. One of the reasons these things drag on so long is that everyone usually walks on eggshells around the person for the first year of it.

      So don’t do that. Don’t avoid your boss because you know they’re incompetent. Force them to sink or swim by going to them and expecting help and advice and information. Don’t let them slide with vague answers and non-help help.

      2. coffeeforone*

        Thank you! This was encouraging. I try really hard to be direct with her and have done so in several instances (which I am keeping notes on). One of the reasons I’m so blah is that when I’ve asked for clarification (or called out that yesterday she told me to do X and now is saying Y), her response is noticeably chilly and often argumentative. I know not everyone is great at receiving feedback, but it’s stunning to me how defensive and uncomfortable it makes her to have an employee ask a basic question.

        I haven’t been tracking as many of the “I don’t recall” comments, so will be a little more conscientious. I can tell my coworkers are doing the eggshells thing, so I’m trying to be more direct and confident. Thanks for the motivation and support!

        Re: Mazzy – we don’t have an internal transfer system since we’re mid-sized. I may go to her boss at some point (I reported to them briefly during the vacancy) but I feel like I have to have my ducks in a row and for it to be “more serious” (but maybe my bar for “more serious” is too high…).

  170. Robin6*

    This situation has resolved itself but I am wondering how I could have handled it better.

    I recently started a new job. When I came on board, there was a project already going on, part of which my company didn’t have the capacity to handle so they partnered with another company to complete. After I started, I spent a few days at the other company to get a feel for the project and what they were doing. I noticed problems immediately: many of them had different ideas about what the instructions meant, no one was really managing them or checking their work, some of them were barely contributing anything. I did my best to lead the project while I was there.

    After a couple of weeks, my manager told me I couldn’t go to that site anymore. They were already paying someone to manage that team, even though that manager wasn’t doing much of anything, and while I was there I wasn’t being trained for anything else and also couldn’t spend much time finalizing the project for the client. After that, it was like project management whack-a-mole. I would email the manager on site with an instruction and check in later to find some people weren’t following it and others were putting their own unique spin on it. I would email a clarification and try to clean up that mess and hope it didn’t get any worse, and stumble across something else that was being done wrong, and the process would start again. It was frustrating for me and probably for the team members as well, I’m sure most of them weren’t getting things wrong intentionally. Two team members were removed from the project for not following repeated instructions but I don’t know how well or poorly those instructions were communicated.

    My manager was also frustrated, but he wanted us to just do our best and resolve not to work with this partner company again. I feel like I should have spoken up louder at some point but I don’t know how much that would have accomplished. I asked about having direct communication lines with the team and was told all communication should go through their manager. Our final product took longer and was more expensive than projected and was not as polished as I think it could have been as a result. I can push harder next time when I’m not brand new, but should I have done anything more this time?

    1. Havarti*

      Short of tossing out the manager at the other company, I suspect there wasn’t much more you could have done that you didn’t already do. What I would like to know is why someone with more authority didn’t step in to have some sort of meeting so everyone would be on the same page on what the deliverable was supposed to look like. Where was upper management in all of this? I’d be horrified if someone told me the other company was mucking things up.

  171. Drew*

    Looking for vibes from the AAM commentariat: I’m applying for a very cool job that would be a real stretch position but I believe is within my talents. I’m reading lots of Alison’s advice to make sure my cover letter and CV are the best I can make them. I’ve been at my current company for more than ten years and it’s past time to change things up.

    Thanks!

        1. The Editrix*

          Best of luck and good wishes to you — I long ago applied for a cool job that seemed way out of my league, and got it, and it turned out to be the best job I ever had. The publication is now defunct, alas, or I’d probably still be there. May things turn out as well for you (without the defunct part, of course).

  172. Wonderment*

    Who should I tell first that I’m leaving the company – my boss (who I work more directly with) or my grand boss (who is responsible for reviews, raises, etc.)?

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve never told “grand boss” I’m leaving a place before telling my own boss first.

    3. Catsaber*

      Definitely your own boss – it typically goes Direct Manager first, then Grandboss (if your direct manager doesn’t do it for you).

    4. AliceBD*

      Boss.

      If boss is on vacation and you have to tell, you can do grandboss*. But assuming boss is around, boss should be told first.

      *I did this a couple of years ago — official resignation to grandboss since boss was away for a long vacation and I really needed to give notice so I could start to transition things. I was giving 2.5 week’s notice and had a company where everyone worked out their entire notice period.

  173. SaaSSalesGuy*

    Hi- had a great interview at a local company yesterday with 7 people. After leaving I realized I had everyone’s email for thank you notes except for the CEOs!!! I haven’t been able to locate it online. They are small and pretty informal- I’m thinking of calling/emailing the hiring manager to ask for it. Any suggestions?

    1. Anonforthis*

      I think you could just email something to your contact and ask them to forward it to the CEO.

  174. dark_horse76*

    I’m hoping I can get some advice. I’m starting a job hunt after having been in my current role for 3 years. What I always dread in interviews are those questions, “Tell me about a time when…”. I dread them because I have a Really Bad memory. If I’ve ever come across whatever situation they’re asking me about, I won’t/don’t remember it. In the future, I’m hoping to be able to write anything potentially relevant down when it happens, but that won’t help me now.

    Has anyone else successfully navigated those common questions when you have a very bad memory?

    (And thanks for your help :) )

    1. Four lights*

      They’re definitely hard to remember! You could figure out the answers now so you know what you’ll say. I once wrote down a lot of common interview questions and wrote out my responses so I could study them.

    2. Anon for this*

      Oh yes! I also have a bad memory in this way — plus I’m not a quick on-the-spot thinker, so it’s hard to connect the dots on the spot.

      My only advice? Practice. Identify the questions that are likely to come up for you, write down answers, and say them out loud a lot.

      I just went through a hiring process and answered questions about:

      – A time I got critical feedback.
      – A time I got it wrong or made a mistake when dealing with issues of equity/cultural competence.
      – A time I worked with a team to achieve a set outcome.
      – A time a team didn’t work well together.

      1. Colette*

        Agreed – practice is critical.

        The first time I was laid off, I went through an exercise that was about accomplishments and skills. Start with something you did (i.e. “I worked on the blue teapots project”).

        List out specific things you did:
        – met with the client to understand how they plan to use the blue teapots
        – wrote documentation on the product
        – designed the box for the product
        – trained the clients on the product

        In other words, start with the very general that you might remember and work your way to more specific details and situations.

        That will help you build your STAR/CAR stories (Challenge, Action, Result) which will help you answer the questions. Once you have some details, google common questions and practice your answers.

    3. Meg*

      I have a method for this that works really well for me – requires more prep but relieves some of the pressure of recalling things in an interview when you’re anxious. I think this is a bastardized version of an exercise recommended in What Colour is Your Parachute, so I do not take full credit :)
      Step 1: think about all the jobs you’ve had, one by one, and ask yourself: what were my favourite projects/successes? What were moments I felt really challenged or like a failure? Basically just try to surface memories of achievement, conflict, and growth. Make basic notes of these “experiences”. Try to come up with at least 3 for every job you’ve had.

      Step 2: pick out the “best” experiences (I recommend at least 6 and no more than 10) – your favourites, or the ones that most challenged you, or ones that had the most impact on you, personally or professionally.

      Step 3: you know the SAR method for resumes? Situation, Action, Result? Write out each experience as a story, with a SAR format. It’s crucial that you actually WRITE IT OUT! Imagine you’re telling it to someone or writing a children’s book and tell the story of these experiences. Describe the Situation, Action you took, and the Result. It’s okay if the result wasn’t necessarily a success, just make sure you add part of the result as what you learned from it and how it changed you for the future.

      Step 4: Reread your stories… and be proud for a second! You’re a cool person and you’ve done so much. Now: add 1-3 “tags” to each story of a skill you think they demonstrate. Eg. Leadership, flexibility, conflict resolution, writing, public speaking, whatever. Should note this method seems to be most effective for communicating “soft skills” but can work for technical skills too.

      Step 5: review the job description and list which skills you think are most important. Compare how many stories you have with those tags, or if a story you didn’t tag “communication” could actually work for that (if not, revisit your experiences list).

      Step 6: practice telling these stories. I repeat: practice telling these stories – to yourself, a friend, the mirror, the Internet. Imagine some of those “tell me about a time when you [handled conflict/managed multiple tasks/etc]” questions and practice mentally reviewing and selecting the most appropriate story from the professional anthology you’ve just created.

      Step 7: go to your interview and instead of thinking “How do I answer this?” when they say “tell me a time…”, ask yourself: “which of my stories will best demonstrate my ability to do [skill they’re trying to gauge from the question]?”

      Step 8: hopefully, get job, but either way, keep all those stories somewhere and keep adding to them so the next time you have an interview, all you have to do is select your most relevant stories for THAT job and practice telling them again.

    4. The Rain In Spain*

      I agree with much of the advice- think through common scenarios ahead of time and practice your responses. But I will caution you not to over practice because you don’t want to sound rehearsed! Also, sometimes you may not have an example, in which case you can say that you haven’t experienced that but this is how you’d handle it, etc. It’s also okay to take a minute to think about it before you answer!

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      Start thinking about a few projects that you worked on or some difficult situations you’ve encountered and write them down. Without the pressure of being “on the spot” your memory might be a little clearer and you can pull out a few key items to highlight when those come up. I’ve noticed they tend to be fairly similar across the board (with the exception of more technical questions) such as dealt with a difficult customer/coworker, discovered an error, took point on a project, etc…
      As for now, look through old emails if your system allows it and see if you can find something.

    6. Armchair Analyst*

      So in b-school we actually went through and wrote these questions down in the column to the left, and wrote S-T-A-R in the columns to the right. Situation Task Action Result. I filled in pages and pages of these in preparation for behavioral -based interview questions or STAR questions and I do it now to prep for interviews.
      You can easily google a list of such questions. Or use whatever is your favorite search engine I don’t care.

      Good luck!

  175. LaurenB*

    Does anyone have any good resources on developing a procedures manual? I feel like I need some sort of framework to think about all the different elements needed, in order to make something that’s even vaguely useful before people start using it and pointing out all the missing parts.

    1. Zephy*

      I’ve written and helped edit a few procedure manuals. It helped me to literally sketch out the flow of a task, like with a pen, on paper, with circles and arrows showing the relationship and direction of each piece of the task. And remember, people “pointing out all the missing parts” is as much a part of this process as all the work you did to compose the first draft! A manual’s no good if it only makes sense to the person that wrote it. Good luck!

    2. Toodie*

      I agree with the previous poster: letting people add their feedback is a huge part of the process. Don’t take it as criticism of what you’ve done, but collaboration. And remember, always always remember, that a lot of people in this world are completely flummoxed by a blank page. Starting the process is a huge thing.

      1. LaurenB*

        Thanks! I am flummoxed by the blank page. I just need to get further along than “do the stuff” before I ask for feedback and I feel I’m not that much past that.

  176. coffee cup*

    In our team it is common for senior members to give feedback to junior ones. This feedback is always in the form of an email of written feedback points (i.e. a big old list). The company seems to feel that it’s the employees’ responsibility to work out how best to take on board feedback in this way… and to some extent I do agree (how can we cater for everyone’s learning style?). BUT I feel it’s a dry and boring way to constantly tell people to fix this or that. I suggested prefacing the email with telling the person what the good things were they did, so it isn’t just feedback. My manager has been doing a general ‘you did a good job’ but without going into detail. I feel there’s merit in adding a few examples of good things so it’s less just a ‘cover’ and more actually praising the person.

    Is this sensible or am I overthinking?

    Relatedly, I’m thinking of suggesting we start a ‘feedback forum’ where we meet once a month or so to discuss feedback in person. Make it more collaborative rather than staid and just in an email every time. I have no idea if this is a good idea or how to go about actually suggesting it though. Wondered if anyone has tips? I am not a manager, but I am the senior person under my manager in my team.

    1. lmj*

      I think you run into issues where, if you do “positive feedback and then negative feedback” all together like that, people won’t be paying much attention to the positive because they’ll just be bracing themselves for the negative feedback. And then if it’s negative feedback before positive feedback, they’re likely to still be dwelling on the negative feedback. Alternatively, you can get people who disregard negative feedback if they also get positive feedback.

      IME, the best way to receive feedback is to get it as close to what prompts it as possible. If there’s feedback based on a mistake, point that out immediately when the mistake is noticed. If you see someone do something really well, compliment it immediately. This way people are never ignoring positive feedback in order to dwell on/anticipate negative feedback and vice-versa.

      1. coffee cup*

        Because we edit things and work on stuff very independently a lot of the time, it’s quite hard to spot things ‘as they happen’ and give feedback then and there. We really can only check work after it’s done and then give feedback. We do tell them that the feedback isn’t meant to be seen as negative – it’s hard to know everything and it’s stuff they do need to take on board – and I think when they get used to the format they’d know to appreciate the positive and work on the less positive. I just feel it’s a shame no one gets an email detailing all the good work they did on a project.

    2. Zephy*

      How often does a given junior employee receive this Litany of Errors, and how long do you have to be there before you’re no longer subjected to it? I think you’re right to want to incorporate a few concrete items of positive feedback – I don’t see how anyone would find an email that says basically “you’re doing great, except for all these things that everyone else agrees you did wrong” effective and not utterly demoralizing.

      For your “feedback forum,” I think that has the potential to break bad really quickly if it’s structured exactly like these (awful) feedback emails, except face-to-face – I’m currently the most junior staff in my office and I’m just picturing a team meeting where everyone tells me what I’ve been doing wrong for the past month and just the thought has me anxious, because that’s a mean thing to do. If it were more of a conversation about the work itself, where everyone has a chance to weigh in on processes and make suggestions, that would be different.

      1. coffee cup*

        On your first point, they get it quite often depending on when they complete work. They do need to know what they should be correcting (it’s a small team and we need to be up to speed and be reliable so one or two people aren’t doing extra work checking and correcting) BUT I have issues with the way it’s done and have done for a while, for the reason you mention. If I write a feedback email (and I have to sometimes) I try to phrase the points less ‘you did this wrong’ and more ‘remember X and Y when you do this’. It ends really only when it isn’t very long and when we’re not spending hours checking work any more (which is fine, part of the job, but means I can’t get as much of my own work done). It’s why I feel we could do this better or differently.

        Re your second point, my idea is exactly for that reason, to counter the emails and explore a better way to improve work and everyone’s confidence without it just being about a big list. I’m not like my manager, and I don’t line manage anyone, so I feel more able to facilitate this kind of thing. My thinking was to have a conversation, as you describe, and for me to share things I’m working on improving too (so it makes it clear we all have feedback to work on and we all need to chat about it).

        1. Zephy*

          Does your team have a documented training process, or at least a list of benchmarks? Like, after 30/60/90 days in the position, an employee should be able to do X/Y/Z with minimal supervision? I’m sure the manager has some sense of what’s reasonable as far as how long onboarding should take, but is that written down anywhere, and is that timeline in fact reasonable?

          OldJob developed a list of benchmarks for a team where everyone was pretty much responsible for the same things and being evaluated on the same metrics. The first 30/60/90 days in the position focused on mastering a certain subset of tasks, so both the trainer and trainee knew what they were supposed to be doing. It helped keep everyone from getting overwhelmed or frustrated, and gave an external anchoring point for expectations.

    3. Nacho*

      Different people prefer feedback in different ways, and a good boss will take that into account, and flex how feedback is delivered to each employee. Some people might prefer the soft approach you’re suggesting, while others would hate it, and much prefer the boss just tell them what was wrong so they can fix it.

      Talk with your boss about how you would like to receive feedback, but don’t try to change the whole system for everybody.

      1. coffee cup*

        But there aren’t different ways. There is this one way, and that’s it. And I already know people hate it, and the newer people in their first office job think it’s normal to get a long list of points rather than anything more constructive. I think the system does need a change, or at least an amendment. I don’t really get feedback any more, but giving it out has reinforced how ineffective the current way seems to be.

        1. valentine*

          Can you streamline it so they’re not told the same thing by multiple people? They start triple checking their they’re/there/theirs, only to be told for the next three weeks as people keep finding old errors.

          I despise fluff at work. Just tell me what I did wrong so I can fix it and decrease the times you contact me.

  177. Clever Username*

    Question about careers in the legal field.

    My son is thinking of becoming a lawyer; he went through some injustice a while back and wants to be able to help kids in similar situations. I think this is admirable, but while he’s a very intelligent kid and loves debate, I don’t know if he’s got the schoolwork discipline/stamina for law school. Are there any other legal careers besides being a full-fledged lawyer that he could consider?

    1. Four lights*

      It sounds like he’s still in high school, so he’s got all of undergraduate to figure out if he’s really got the discipline necessary (sometimes things change in college). Being a paralegal is an option. Beyond law, I think social workers work with kids in those situations as well. Or he could look for local organizations that work with kids in situations like that, and see what other careers there are.

      1. valentine*

        I don’t know if he’s got the schoolwork discipline/stamina for law school. […] Are there any other legal careers besides being a full-fledged lawyer that he could consider?
        I hope you’ve not told him any of this and that you’re not planning to say he should dial back his dreams, regardless of his age. Let him dream and plan and work. Cheer him on and help him on his chosen path. He could be a guardian ad litem, work pro bono for incarcerated youth, or reform how the criminal system affects youth. He may change his mind tomorrow. But there’s no good reason to clip his wings.

        (But if he is an adult and you can’t afford him, tell him to get a job and set boundaries. Still don’t cut down his self-confidence, though.)

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      A paralegal certificate with some criminal justice studies would make him a good candidate to work in a criminal defense lawyer’s office or for an organizations like the Innocence Project, groups that help people who are re-entering society after prison, or prison visitation programs. After a few years of that, he might have a better idea as to whether he’d be able to hack law school. But definitely be aware that there are many ways to work as an advocate for people adversely involved in the criminal justice system, that don’t involve being a lawyer.

    4. CatCat*

      Not necessarily a “legal career,” but what about work in government on policy that impacts the specific population? Or working in government or private programs designed to help the population?

    5. The Rain In Spain*

      One of my friends became involved with union organizing and after many years decided to go to law school after all! It’s not unheard of to go to law school a few years after graduating/having other work experience.

      In addition to the other recommendations, are there nonprofits that he could work with to help those kids? Another thing to keep in mind is that although he certainly can and should pursue this type of work as his primary career if he wants to, he can also choose a different career path and make sure he volunteers/donates money/mentors/etc to help those kids.

      I will add that law school is very, very expensive, and often financial aid is linked to performance (ie, if you’re not in the top 1/3 you lose your scholarship). If it’s a path he chooses to take, I would strongly recommend that he go to a smaller, more affordable school in an area that he plans to live/work after graduating. I went to a top tier law school because it was the highest ranked I got into, and though I don’t necessarily regret it, because I didn’t choose a typical law firm career path, I don’t necessarily think it’s carried as much weight as I had anticipated. Also, networking is *very* important in the field, so I would also recommend he get involved with volunteer/pro bono opportunities, pre-law groups, etc, if he decides this is what he wants to do!

    6. Anon4this*

      Legal adjacent stuff could include policy, social justice advocacy/nonprofit work, social work. paralegal/legal research. However, I also wouldn’t be quick to write off your son’s ability to perform well academically. Many people pick up their stride if they care enough about something and put their minds to it.

      1. School Anon*

        Seconding. My law school hires a ton of people with law degrees to staff the many centers and institutes on social justice/policy/legal research, etc.

    7. Arctic*

      In a lot of states Probation Officers have taken on much more of a reform advocate role of trying to help people avoid convictions on their record through pre-trial diversion and specialty courts. Especially ones who work with juvenile court.
      It really depends on the state though. Some are the old school types.
      Usually means taken a type of civil service exam.

  178. Anon for this*

    My spouse has been out of work a few months – last job didn’t work out even though everyone he worked with loved them, because the clients decided they wanted someone higher up in the company to work on their business. There wasn’t another piece of business to move him to, even though his boss loved him, so they let him go (not a firing per se). The clients loved my spouse when they started (and said he was the best they’d had in that role), but the higher up was a big personality contrast. Much more the loudest voice in the room type, which matters in the industry in question, sadly, and clients like the new shiny, in general.

    He has had plenty of nibbles, and some interview processes have dragged on and on for months. There have been a few rejections due to culture or chemistry fit. He’s is staring to worry that his own personality (or a self-perceived lack of social and political skills) is to blame, even though he’s found past jobs where he fit well in the past. He’s just at a high enough level now where I think hiring managers are even pickier about these things.

    Anyway, it’s demoralizing, and I’m trying to convince him not to take these things personally, but it’s hard. He loves his work and misses it, and doesn’t enjoy not working AT ALL (financially we’re okay, but he made more than me and we’d have more freedom to do fun things if he were employed). He has an opportunity he’s most excited about where next week, where he gets to present to the team, and he loves presenting. Fingers crossed.

    1. The Rain In Spain*

      Good luck to him! If it helps, remind him that it’s as much about him finding a good fit as it is about the company determining he’s a good fit. Also, if he can go to networking/continuing education events/volunteer/etc, he may enjoy this time searching a bit more!

      1. Anon for this*

        Oh, yes, thank you. I’ve reminded him of that. He’s been at a place where he was a very poor fit for the culture… it did not end well. He’s doing some volunteering and has had some networking events to attend. I wish he could work on creative projects, of which he usually has many. But not working has sapped his creativity.

  179. mcr-red*

    I’m sure you all have the office temperature wars. Our system is old and has worked faulty, at least in our section of the building. To the point that people will literally walk in and say, “Wow it’s hot in here (in summer)/cold in here (in winter.)” Supposedly it’s been fixed. Except for the “fix” has the system blowing cold air constantly in our section of the building at least 80% of the time. Many of us have complained and been told it’s “circulating” that’s how it works and we just have to get used to the vents blowing cold air on our heads.

    And here is my problem. I have RA. I probably only miss a few days out of the year due to bad RA flares where I literally cannot function. The rest of the time I just operate in pain. The problem is this cold air blowing on me is making my ache worse at times when I’m having some flares. I have been wearing layers, blankets and even gloves and hats at my desk to keep the air from blowing on me. I took a sick day yesterday because I was hurting and thought thought of the air on me made me physically sick to my stomach. Had it not been for the air, I probably would have been in and just worked through it.

    So my question is, what do I do? Do I just start taking off more sick days? Do I broach this again with management but this time from the standpoint of you are messing with my chronic illness?

    1. Victoria Nonprofit (USA)*

      It sounds like the best solution would be for you to move to a desk that’s not right underneath the air vents. Could you make that ask?

      1. mcr-red*

        Well the thing is, for how our space is set up -it’s a really super weird open plan thing with three different departments in the room – my desk IS probably the one that is as far away from the six vents as we can be without rearranging the entire room. I’m beside two of them, but neither are directly above me. There’s one spot I can see that would be perfect, but it’s a different department entirely.

        The people who have to sit literally directly under a vent are actually department heads, who have complained to their bosses and just get shrugs.

    2. fposte*

      What may be happening is that the temp that’s blowing is the correct temp but it cools people off nonetheless by blowing directly on them. I don’t know what size vent you’re talking about, but there are vent covers and vent air deflectors–would putting something like that on the vent(s) near you help? Those are inexpensive enough for an employer that it should be no biggie to pay for.

      Your situation overall could rise to the level of an ADA accommodation request, assuming they’re a large enough employer (15 employees, for federal protection) to be covered. I wouldn’t bring up chronic illness if I wasn’t intending to invoke the ADA–that’s the only reason they’re obliged to do anything about it–but that doesn’t automatically make it a big deal, or, conversely, something they *have* to change to suit you.

      However, it’s not likely that they’d have to revamp their whole heating system to accommodate you–if vent covers/deflectors don’t work, they might instead move you to a different desk, or even allow you more remote work. So consider some plans B and C that you might ask for. askjan dot org has a list of possible accommodations for temperature sensitivity under their A-Z section (look under “Arthritis”) that might give you some additional ideas.

      1. mcr-red*

        Thanks I will definitely check that out! The two dept heads that do sit directly under the vents brought up the vent deflectors, and I THOUGHT they said they were going to get them, but it’s been months now!

        1. valentine*

          Ask about the deflectors and ask to sit in the promising spot (if necessary, say it’s for your health).

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      Would a space heater help you? Or a heating pad? I know many offices ban them, but there are many with built in safety features and if you ask for it as an accommodation you may be able to get by. Really hope for everyone’s sake that the deflectors get installed, but if a space heater would help you it may be a good patch for now.

      Also, in the interim, one thing that really helps me when I have back spasm issues are the disposable wrap-around heating pads. Because I didn’t want to disclose the issue at work, it was very easy to wear one under my work clothes and they typically last 8-12 hours so I was pleasantly toasty. I know you can’t reasonably wear 10 different heating pads in different areas, but if those kind of stick on/velcro options would work for your most sensitive areas, perhaps they could help.

    4. My Brain is Exploding*

      Hope you read this since it’s late, but you should be able to get (or have made) vent covers or deflectors.

  180. chewingle*

    Hi! My company got bought by a much larger company a few months ago. Right after the new year, we began the transition process.

    A few details about the company I WAS working for:
    We were small. About 50-100 people. The benefits were good, the pay was a little under what it should have been BUT the perks made up for it. I, personally, had a great commute because I specifically moved to a location with commute in mind. I LOVE my coworkers, for the most part. When people say, “We’re like a family here!” it’s such a red flag, but this was the kind of company where it’s been as close to that as it can get. I’m excited to see my coworkers every day and chat with them, we work great as a team, etc. Aside from not making as much as I wanted, everything about my job and my company was better than I could have wished for.

    Now the new company:
    –So far, the teams are still somewhat the same, but they intend to separate us. This is to be expected, because it’s SUCH a large company
    –They got rid of a lot of the benefits we actually valued and replaced it with stupid things we couldn’t care less about (like sometimes they buy us lunch, they keep fruit out, etc. Doesn’t make up for the loss in vacation time).
    –The commute SUCKS. Traffic is so bad in my area that I stopped driving and started taking the train. But the train a shit show. First, it makes me SO nauseous (I get motion sick really easily. I take drugs for it, but I would rather not and they only help to a point). I hate starting and ending my day with, “Is today the day I puke all over the inside of my computer bag?” Second, there are constant issues that cause delays. Constant. Anything from technical difficulties to someone throwing themselves in front of the train (last week’s fiasco).
    –The office is nice, but working from home is nicer….
    –They said they would be flexible with working from home requests, because the office is such a pain for some people to get to. But some departments are already taking that back. One of my coworkers now drives an hour and a half one way to get into the office. Which, to me, is time she could be working. And I’ve seen her in action–she’s not more efficient when working in the office. In fact, she might be LESS efficient because they use a desk setup that is unfamiliar to her and she’s one of those people who is not good with new technologies. So letting her keep the setup she has at home is, frankly, easier on those of us who have to help her set up every morning. (This is just ONE example.)
    –They pay their employees a lot more than they’re paying us for the same work. In fact, since our company was so much smaller than theirs, each person on our team does MORE work than their people because we have to double down on job duties (spreading people out among multiple departments) in order to be as efficient. The new overlords are not in any kind of hurry to remedy this. Personally, I feel like if you’re taking away all the good benefits and making my daily life more miserable, I’d like that extra $15,000, thanks.
    –Their HR department can’t get its shit together. Some of us have our 401ks sorted out, some of us STILL don’t. Some of us are having money pulled out for it but it’s not going anywhere because they never actually created accounts for us. Same with insurance. It took me THREE months to be able to use the insurance I was already paying for. Every time we ask about any of this, they just act like they don’t have any clue what we’re talking about.
    –Apparently “working weekends” are a thing. They schedule weekends when certain departments will work, whether they need to or not. As is, we work weekends and nights when our work loads warrant it. It’s not uncommon. But for a company to make it an official part of the job is such a massive “HELL NO” to me.
    –Everyone on my team has told me some variation of, “If they don’t get all this figured out, most of us will be quitting in the next 6 months.” Honestly? Same.

    The thing is, I don’t WANT to job search. But I will if I need to. Is there a certain amount of time I should give this? Do we have any power, as a group, to address these issues? Are these just the kinds of things you have to deal with when working for a big corporation?

    Frankly, I expected a company that takes what is one job at our company and turns it into five to have a better handle on things…. But maybe my expectations are just too high?

    2. Bunny Girl*

      I think 6 months is a reasonable amount of time to let the company pull itself together. Although honestly, if I were you I would start looking. Maybe not intensely, but I would have my eyes out. You said you liked your job because of the commute, benefits, and your coworkers. And it doesn’t sound like you get to keep any of those in your new job. Plus your schedule is changing. Those are all things people seek out in jobs and if none of them are working for you in your new job, then I would look elsewhere. After a few months if you’re still there and things haven’t changed, I might take this up with my old manager, but if they don’t have any power than you might just have to make that decision.

      Good luck!

    3. Anono-me*

      I hate to say this but I think you’re going to need to job search. Even if the company gets everything straightened out oh, you’re still going to have the horrendous commute.

      Also, I am not an accountant nor lawyer, but I think after a certain time frame the IRS becomes interested in 401K contributions that aren’t happening. That may be something to research.

    4. Mazzy*

      The 401K one pisses me off, you don’t play with people’s money like that. There’s been market volatility recently, my portfolios are up 10% this year already. If someone took my money out at the end of the last year and didn’t put it anywhere, I’d be out over $10K!

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I’ve been through a merger, a sale and a divestment with a purchase by a private equity company. None have gone well.
      Sorry. Start looking.

  181. jclaar*

    Is this a good place to ask about a weird accommodation policy put into place? My building is one of those huge monstrosities that have bathrooms at either end, one of which is a single use that I use most often, and has access to water. The other end has a multi use bathroom and is where the microwaves and coffee are. The multi use one has a sign on the door saying due to accommodation leave the door propped open, which means the rest of us are supposed to totally compromise our privacy to use that bathroom now. I for one am not doing it, but is that even legal? For some reason it doesn’t have an auto door button, but they need to install one that closes on it’s own, not leave the door open all the time. This place is a fishbowl already with the open floor plan, I’m not leaving behind my privacy in the bathroom too!

    1. Jess*

      Sounds legal, assuming the stalls have doors. You could ask HR about the feasibility of adding an auto-door opener or other long-term plans.

    2. Tinfoil Hat Required?*

      I might be misunderstanding, but it seems that you’d be able to leave the door closed when you’re in it, but prop it open again when you leave?

      1. jclaar*

        It says to leave it open. And yeah the stalls have doors but that’s not enough. I feel that anyone hanging outside the door can see and hear everything. That makes me uncomfortable.

        1. fposte*

          If it’s an accommodation issue, I think the point is that people who can’t door-handle 1) are going to be stuck in front of the doorway waiting and 2) are going to get periodically screwed because somebody forgot to re-prop the door when they left. If I were the workplace, I might remove the door in the meantime, especially if there’s somebody actively needing accommodation (but I’d also get on the automatic button).

          1. TooTiredToThink*

            Button – or if it is still a bit of a privacy issue (like maybe people can still see the stalls and they are American stalls with the gaps in them – hang a curtain for now. Not the prettiest look; but could be done cheaply and quickly.

            (Also, I misread and thought it was talking about the single use bathroom).

    3. fposte*

      I think if there are stall doors there’s no legal requirement to keep the door to the larger room closed. Some facilities don’t even have that door.

    4. Natalie*

      Someone needs that door propped open so that they can use the flipping toilet in a reasonable time frame. It’s fine if you want to ask your facilities department about a accessibility button, but in the meantime ignoring that direction is a jerk move.

      1. jclaar*

        But ignoring my desire for privacy isn’t fair. I don’t want to be exposed in there. That’s why they created the auto button, and they need to just get one in there asap.

        1. Colette*

          If it’s a choice between someone being able to use the bathroom and you wanting more privacy, you lose (and you should lose). Why can’t you just always use the other bathroom?

          Adding an auto button can mean things like having to run electrical wiring and possibly take the bathroom out of service while they install it – it’s not just a door handle that someone can put on in 30 minutes.

          A couple of years ago I broke my ankle and used a knee scooter, and if I had been in the bathroom when you closed the door, I don’t think I would have been able to get out.

          You say you’d be “exposed in there” but in fact you still have privacy, just not as much as you’d like. Leave the door open or use the other bathroom.

          1. valentine*

            If it’s a choice between someone being able to use the bathroom and you wanting more privacy, you lose (and you should lose).
            Yes, and the single-stall bathroom’s unavailable to the people who need the door open (which makes sense if there’s no stall).

            Is there not even a sort of foyer space/corner you have to turn? I don’t think I’ve been in a bathroom where you open the door and are looking at the stalls. I understand the noise concern, but you can hear noise even with the door closed. My concern would be the smell by the food area, but that’s just too bad.

            Leave the door open, don’t complain, and shut down anyone else’s complaints.

            Disabled people shouldn’t have to navigate a curtain on top of everything else.

        2. Natalie*

          Someone in your building is physically limited enough that they cannot open the door. Their need to be able to physically get into the restroom is more important than your want of the small amount of additional privacy that closing the door provides. That really shouldn’t be surprising?

          That modicum of privacy is important enough to you to passive aggressively ignore a clear direction with obvious utility, but not important enough to just ask your landlord/facilities about a door button? Sorry, you’re clearly in the wrong here.

        3. Jaid*

          Can’t someone just expense a curtain rod and a neutral color opaque curtain panel for the meantime? Gives you visual privacy and lets the handicapped person get in/out with no fuss.

          My Mom has a t-shirt that says that if it’s logical, it’s not right…

    5. Anono-me*

      I’m not understanding the Privacy part of your argument against leaving the entrance door to the multi stall bathroom propped open. Multi stall bathrooms are not private, period. Other people can and often are in there at the same time.

      I get that this squicks you out. It does me a little bit too, (more due to the food proximity). However, physically making it impossible for someone to go to the bathroom independently so that you can have a door shut that doesn’t even give you any real privacy comes off as “not a nice person” thing to do.

      I think you would be better served by lobbying really hard to have automated bathroom doors installed asap (and if they’re not in existence, asking to have automated entrance doors installed also).

  182. Boba tea*

    I’m a college student looking for a summer internship. Despite several interviews, i havent got an offer and it’ll be April soon. Recently i got several messages about temp jobs from recruiters on Linked about jobs that are related to what I do (HR) I’m thinking about taking on one of these offers as the last resort as i dont know what to do in the summer without an internship and jobs at school are finalized before school ends so i cant take it last minute. Is this a viable optiob? are those offers legit? Some sounds “bigger” than what I can do, especially with title like “HR Coordinator” but im still a student holding a part time HR job at school so im not sure if it’s even something i should take? Im getting desperate as summer comes. Is temp job a good option in place of internship? Or should i just keep looking and hope i’ll get one? Im also concerned about the length as internship is in the summer (2-3 months) while these temp job offers are 6+ months and i stil have class next semester) does anyone use recruiters to find internship? I really really want one so i’m desperate but i also dont want to waste my time or take on something that i cant handle just to quit

    1. Temperance*

      I don’t think recruiters typically place interns. Have you talked to Career Services?

      1. Boba tea*

        i’ve talked to them before to help me with resume, LinkedIn profile and interview but not referring me to jobs. i’ll look to see if they do that!

    2. Minerva McGonagall*

      Have you talked to your school’s Career Services office? They may be able to help direct you to other internships or fairs where employers will be looking for interns. Also talk to your professors and see if they have any contacts in the field.

      1. Boba tea*

        i’ve only got help with resume and LinkedIn with Career Services before, i’ll be attending a few of their workshops and a career fair is coming up so i’ll ask to see if they can connect me with someone. my major isnt HR so my professor’s fileds have nothing to with it. i do know a few professionals from volunteering who referred me to their company’s intern position but i didnt pass. im working on my resumes and interview skills as well but with no feedback, im just guessing and adjusting things along the way

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      Can you search for volunteer opportunities related to your field instead and potentially search for a different paying job? Does your part time HR job at school allow you to take additional paid positions? Sometimes they limit the hours you can work or want to make sure they have first priority over your time, etc. Career services is a good idea, as are using your school boards. Also, are you part of any HR associations/groups? There are usually networking events and those may help you find something as well.

      1. boba tea*

        i havent found any volunteer opportunities related with HR but i found an unpaid part time job which i saved in case i got nothing by the end of the semester. my school only allows 20 hours of work and they already asked me if i want to stay, but i really prefer an external full time internship option for more experience and pay. one of the biggest responsibilities of that part time job is to onboard student so im guessing the summer will be very quiet with school out of season and little new things to do. i use my career services to check on resume, practice interviews and such but havent asked for help with finding internships. from what i saw, they offer assistance but do not refer students to jobs? i’ll ask. im not part of any association either as there’s none on campus, i joined an HR Meetup group but they rarely meet and most of professionals and they have themed meetups like Corporate laws etc which i know nothing about…

  183. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I had a conversation with my boss this week about possibly working remotely if my partner and I move to another state. It went very well– he told me he’s been expecting me to bring it up– but I gave him time to give me an answer. One of the things we would have to work out is the mechanics. He did mention he hopes I would come back to this office with some regularity, and I plan to suggest coming back either for one week out of eight or perhaps focusing instead on coming back on a project basis (i.e., if we have three projects to analyze, trying to consolidate them and work intensely on them for a couple of days).

    I would like to ask for a weekly check-in/progress update, though he hates weekly meetings. Anything else I should bring up? I will, of course, remind him that I would keep to our regular hours but I would expect the same flexibility that I have here.

    What has worked for you in a situation where you’ve gone from being in the office to being remote full-time, or if your co-workers have? The last time I did this, I was already basically remote (in a Regus office, so not from home) and I wasn’t nearly as well established as I am here.

    1. Colette*

      Do you work with people other than your boss? If so, how will you stay in sync with them now that hallway chats won’t be possible?

      Are you set up with instant messenger and conferencing software? (Can you touch base with your boss daily over chat if he doesn’t like meetings?)

      I’ve found that working remotely works well when you’re on a team who has a large percentage of people working remotely. It’s much harder to build relationships and remember to include someone who is the only person not in the office. Hopefully your regular visits back will help. (Are they paying for the travel and accommodations, or are you? Are they set up to deal with the labor laws in your new state? Who is paying for your business needs when you’re remote (internet, phone, etc.))

      1. valentine*

        I will, of course, remind him that I would keep to our regular hours but I would expect the same flexibility that I have here.
        Don’t limit yourself unnecessarily. You may find that you work best being available x hours while the office is open and doing the rest at a different time of day or on days the office is closed. Get creative.

  184. Tinfoil Hat Required?*

    Are workplace EAPs safe for employees to use? I’ve heard that some people think that if they contact the EAP, they might be putting a target on themselves for their employers to identify them as a potential problem.

    1. LQ*

      I suspect it might vary. You’d be fine here. The reports only say how much usage and that’s it. No way for the org, let alone the manager to know who contacted them.

    2. Mojo021*

      They are safe to use. The EAP won’t report to the employer that you specifically contacted them, they do report on general usage numbers. The only time they would report on a specific person is if they are mandated to complete some kind of counseling or program because of workplace concerns.

    3. BlueWolf*

      Our EAP is run by an outside company, so I don’t think there’s even any way for my employer to identify who is using it. This is the first workplace I’ve worked at that had one, so I don’t know if all others work the same way.

    4. Not All*

      I don’t know about private companies, but I know as a fed our supervisors don’t even have a way of finding out if we’ve used it. They aren’t even given information on how many employees from a given location use it, let alone who those employees are or which aspect of it they used.

      (Federal work has a number of drawbacks, but this is one place where it’s nice!)

    5. Tinfoil Hat Required?*

      Thank you! I haven’t used mine but would figure you’d need to give your company name (so they can verify your company is a client) and your personal information to the EAP. I just didn’t know if they reported back to the company. Appreciate the insight!

    6. Public Facing Librarian*

      Just did an EAP session. Was assured of confidentiality. They are required to break that confidentiality if you plan to harm yourself or others. As I noted further down, it was a good experience for me. I was able to get an appointment in about a week. I was able to dump everything during the session and also get some good orderly direction.

  185. Fellow Traveler*

    Looking for advice on how to handle a request for personal information at work. In an attempt to foster a better sense of community (I guess), my workplace decided to put together an employee book/directory. I was emailed a form to complete for it, but have been procrastinating filling it in because something about the form and the whole concept rubs me the wrong way. In addition to your name, position, job description and years working at the company, they also are asking, among other things, for your favorite [company product], hobbies, whom you like to share your [company product] with (presumably spouse or child, I guess?), and have also asked for a photo, with an option to include a photo with your [company product] sharer. Now I wouldn’t have any issue sharing this information with someone at, say, the company picnic or at the water cooler, as part of indulging in friendly small talk, but something about being given a form and being asked to fill it out seems slightly invasive, and I don’t want to fill out the form. I would rather people know about my hobbies and kids through talking to me, not through some book the company is putting together. I asked my manager if I had to fill it out, and they says that they would be disappointed if I don’t fill out the form because I’m a part time employee and they had to lobby hard to have me included. I’m not a fan of forced company community building, especially if it seems to be in an attempt to boost morale, and there have been other “community building” activities that I haven’t been invited to in the past. (I mean my morale would be boosted if I could have a more flexible work schedule and less micro managing.) Anyhow I’ve been ignoring the form, in hopes that it was an optional exercise, but I’ve been emailed several times now with a friendly (!) reminder to turn my form in, so I feel like I need to respond somehow.
    Any thoughts on how to 1) decline filling out the form without seeming like the office grouch, or 2) asking if this is truly a mandatory exercise? or 3) only filling out the non-personal parts of the form (ie. name and job description – which, really, they should be able to get from HR or something, no?). Other ways I might handle this?
    Or should I just get over my bitter self and fill out the form? Perspective and scripts would be helpful.

    1. LQ*

      I get it. But it doesn’t have to be Your Whole True Authentic Self on the page. I think of stuff like this as a less honest, less interesting instagram.
      For your Favorite Company Product/hobbies/etc with? I highly recommend a pet or a plant, or someone else’s pet or plant and do it with humor.
      Send along a photo of Seymour with the company water bottle.

      I decided this was the right decision in situations like this for me and my bitter self. (PS, I don’t have any plants or pets, I borrow one.)

      1. LQ*

        Hobbies: “I just welcomed Seymour XXIV into the family and I’m really trying to make sure he wants to stay so I’m spending a lot of time singing to him.”

    2. fposte*

      I’d opt for 3, probably blandly filling out all the text that doesn’t involve other people (put down “reading” and “sports” or “nature” for hobbies and any product of theirs you’ve used without hating it as your favorite) and skipping the photographs. This seems like a distinctly marketing-based take on inclusion, with its emphasis on how much you and your loved ones adore the products, and it wouldn’t excite me much.

    3. Namast'ay in Bed*

      My last company had one of those, I never looked at it and I never filled it out. I (and a lot of my colleagues) always managed to get out of it with cheerful deflection – “Oh I’ve been meaning to do that, thanks for the reminder!” or “oh shoot I know I need to get that done, I’ve just been so swamped!” As long as it’s said in an apologetic oh-man-if-only-I-had-the-time-I-would-totally-have-done-this-by-now-I-know-how-much-I’m-missing-out way (and no hard promise of delivery), usually that satisfies people. Rinse and repeat.

      Unless not doing it is causing a problem for you, then you might just have to do it. My manager was a very practical person who didn’t think this added any value, so they weren’t the one haranguing me. If you think it will make your life easier to have just fulfilled the request, I think you can get away with minimal personal sharing. I wouldn’t just write your name and title, but I feel like something quick like “I’m Fellow Traveler and I’m a chocolate teapot inspector. My favorite teapot is the gilded white chocolate macadamia nut earl gray supreme, and I love using it while watching my dog Oolong chase her tail.” would fulfill the spirit of the exercise without having to go into too much detail. Without specifics, the request sounds more homework-y than invasive, but I think if you can share just a little bit you can get them off your back without feeling icky or appearing grumpy.

    4. coffeeforone*

      I really appreciate reading this question because my workplace is considering implementing something sort of similar, and remembering the flip side is helpful.

      One of the reasons we’re considering it is because we have a head office and about 5 regional offices across the country with between 1 and 10 staff each. The regional teams complain constantly that they don’t get to know the larger team in head office on a personal level and have begged for something like this, many, MANY times (I cannot overstate this).
      I wonder if your workplace had a similar person or team who just thought this was some be all-end all for employee “connection”….

    5. Anono-me*

      I would quietly wait until the last minute, just in case the thing never gets going.

      If it does take off, I say be bland and trite and boring in your answers. Your favorite product is the second or third most popular one. Your hobbies are reading or walking or gardening etc. You enjoy sharing the product with your friend Kris (Or other similarly popular name.)

      I would suggest sending a photo that is you in the distance of a beautiful panoramic scene. (Think at the bottom of the Grand Canyon or the top of the Eiffel Tower etc.)

      I’m suggesting you cooperate minimally , because if you make a big deal about being in the directory you risk becoming
      very well known as “Fellow Traveler, the part timer who made a big stink about not wanting to be in the directory even though their boss fought hard to include them.”

      1. A Reader*

        MTE. I think not filling out the form will draw more attention to the OP down the line. I’ve worked for places that would have jumped at the idea of including a directory. These orgs made it A Big Deal if people opted out of attending company parties, get-togethers and other team-focused activities, and the non-attendees heard about it for MONTHS. It was a lot less effort just to participate in the activity (minimally) than do skip it all together.

        I like the idea of just putting in totally bland answers – really, no one is going to question that you do, in fact, love gardening – and I really like the idea of using a photo of you, but you can’t make out that it is, actually, you. Do you have a photo of you wearing a hat and sunglasses in front of a scenic spot? That’s the one to use. :)

    6. Fellow Traveler*

      Thanks, everyone for the perspective, and the hilariously bland form answers. I think that the part that made me cringe was them expecting information on my family. Even though we all work in the same city, we have three offices in different parts of the city, so some departments very rarely interact- which makes it weird to me for people I’ve never met to know that I have a spouse and kids. I think I would have felt better if there had been a “Fill out as much of this form as you want” type of disclaimer. But there wasn’t any such and they are actually being a little aggressive about getting responses, though I have a feeling some of this is due to the over eager intern trying to complete a project. I will contemplate some bland generic responses… unless my procrastination habit wins out…

    7. Cows go moo*

      I understand why you feel this is weird, and it’s certainly not what I would do to boost team morale, but I think it would be difficult to avoid filling it out without seeming like an office grouch. Especially if your manager lobbied to include you *and* mentioned directly how disappointing it would be if you declined participation.

      None of the questions are grossly inappropriate. As others mentioned you can include bland info.

      If everyone is filling out these forms I also think most people aren’t even going to read them – I don’t know if that helps you feel better about completing it. As humans we’re more focused on what other people think of us than what we think of other people.

      1. Sloan kittering*

        Only thing I would caution is that I’ve seen companies use this stuff in their marketing – quotes affirming how much you love the product and photos for the company web site or social media feeds. It’s gross but happens and is weirdly common in nonprofits. So the blander and less identifying, the better if this will bother you (as it would me).

        1. valentine*

          I’ve seen companies use this stuff in their marketing
          This is something to consider. I wouldn’t want to find my profile rotated in the social media feed. Gross. Who cares that employee 24601 likes bread?

          (And, coffeeforone: Are high-school-yearbook-type profiles going to help your regional colleagues work better with HQ? I would hate to be asked what I’m reading for the rest of my tenure just because I chose to be honest on this bleeping form.)

          I do think you’re possibly interpreting the rules as more strict or mandatory, and that’s something I’ve done and do. But you can ignore the bit about sharing the product or Photoshop the product with a massive Twitter logo if you like to tweet about it. You can also go with “Who can choose just one?!” or the like, for both hobbies and fave prod. If they insist on specifics or family pix, you’ll know where you stand.

          Also: Disappointed? I hate people who sadface, especially about spreading my personal information to all and sundry. The effort to include you in nonsense is probably a symptom of larger problems with your manager. Have you buried the lede here, is this just the latest stunt, or are things otherwise okay?

  186. KMB213*

    My new (60 days) assistant is wonderful in many ways – she’s efficient, accurate, and very organized.

    However, she’s really struggling in a few areas.

    She constantly asks questions – I typically have no problem with questions and actually encourage them! However, she’s asking questions about information that, at this point, she should be able to look up on her own. When I try to explain to her how I found the information or why I’m telling her to do something the way I’m telling her, she interrupts me and asks the question again – I’ve told her a few times that I am trying to show her how I arrive at these answers so she can find the information or complete the task herself the next time, and she improves for the rest of the day, or sometimes for two days, but she falls back into the same habits again quickly. She’s overly focused on completing her tasks as quickly as possible, but not at all focused on learning how to complete these tasks with no or minimal assistance in the future. And, the frequent questions make it very difficult for me to concentrate on what I’m working on, so my work is taking me a lot longer to complete. (She was hired to lighten my workload, but I’ve been putting in extra hours instead.)

    She also tries to find “solutions” for “problems” that don’t exist. Yes, there are some things we do that are probably done more efficiently elsewhere, but there are reasons we don’t do them that way, whether it’s cost, client preference, etc. I know this is a somewhat common problem, but it’s not something I’ve experienced before.

    I’ve managed a variety of people in a variety of fields for the past 15 years on-and-off (there were a few years in there where I wasn’t in a management role), including a small team of 3-5 employees at my current organization, but I’ve never dealt with someone with these two specific issues. Adding to it all is that there are cultural differences that affect our communication (we live in the US, but she grew up in an Eastern European country and moved to the US in her late-20s). The cultural differences on their own wouldn’t be a big deal at all, but they are compounding the other issues.

    I’m not necessarily looking for advice – I’ve read plenty of advice on similar issues both here and elsewhere, and taken several management courses. I guess I just wanted to vent more than anything!

    1. Psyche*

      I’ve had assistants like that (usually undergrads) and I found it very helpful to tell them that being fast was not a priority. Then if they came to me with a question they should be able to figure out themselves, I told them to try looking it up and that I would check on them in an hour. If they still couldn’t find the answer, I would show them how. Coming to me became much slower than figuring it out themselves.

      1. KMB213*

        Yeah, I’ve definitely tried to tell her to look things up herself, but she usually just asks me the question in another way or asks me questions (that I’ve answered before) about how to look things up. (I really do think sharing an office is a big part of what’s causing this issue, but the company has grown really quickly and we just don’t have a ton of office space right now.) I could definitely be more firm, though, about having her figure these things out on her own. She’s in her early-to-mid-30s, just a few years younger than me, and has been working for a while, so I’m really surprised she’s like this!

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Rephrase it a bit, maybe — instead of “Go look it up yourself” (in whatever words you use), try “What have you tried so far?” and if she keeps pushing (a la “Why don’t you just tell me how to find the llama specs?”) — “You need to be able to problem-solve on your own to be successful in this role, so tell me what you’ve tried so far that isn’t working.” Hopefully, either you’ll find that she isn’t even trying (which is one problem you can address) or that she is, but her thought process isn’t working the way you need it to (which is a different problem you can also address).

          1. KMB213*

            Yeah, I already ask her what she’s tried – I shouldn’t have said that I tell her to look it up herself; those are far from my exact words! I will make sure I’m asking more open-ended questions – sometimes I’ll ask if she already did “xyz” thing, instead of asking what she already did.

            1. Anono-me*

              I think changing the way you ask her what she’s done already is a good idea. But I also think you need to explicitly tell her that you want her to research prior to asking you questions on how to do things.

              In fact you probably should consider being more explicit in communicating with her for the next little while in all areas. From things you said , I suspect that you are someone who prefers to be more collaborative and team oriented rather than hierarchical. I think it is likely that her prior employment situations may have been more hierarchical ones that did not encourage independent research, but rather had standard operating procedures. In which case, she is asking tons of questions, so she can to learn your organization’s SOPs (and becoming as frustrated as you are, because you aren’t providing the nonexistent rigid SOPs).

    2. Colette*

      That sounds annoying.

      When she interrupts you to ask a question and you answer it, you are rewarding that behavior. Can you set a 15 minute check in at the end of every day for questions, and avoid answering them outside of that time?

      1. KMB213*

        Unfortunately, no, 15 minutes at the end of the day definitely wouldn’t work! I could set specific times every few hours for questions, though.

        I know I am rewarding the behavior; the problem is that she will continue to ask in different ways. And, these things need to be done, often within an hour or two of when I ask (so, enough time for her to figure out things on her own, but not enough time to hold off until the end of the day to discuss it).

        Anyway, as I said, I’m not really looking for advice or for a solution; I’m just wanting to vent!

        1. Auburn*

          I’ve actually encountered someone with the need to get it done as quickly as possible no matter how annoying you have to be to get it done before. It was puzzling. She didn’t work for me so I was able to push and council a bit without the hierarchy muddling things. But she had pretty severe anxiety and I think that was a factor. She needed to solve the problem and move on or her anxiety spiraled. She also has some communication issues. She had trouble asking clarifying questions that were clearly understood and generalizing from one situation to the next. So encountering something similar but not exactly the same made her anxious and then she would feel overwhelmed and not recognize the similarity and use or adapt the tools she’d already learned.

          I wish I could say it improved but it didn’t. She only lasted about 6 months and was let go. In coaching her no matter how explicit I was with her her brain seemed to be 3 steps ahead worrying about what was coming so I never felt like she really listened or like anything really sunk in. I actually think in her case the anxiety caused some real cognitive dificiencies. She had two graduate degrees so I know she was bright and capable but she couldn’t follow really basic instructions. Anyway, good luck!

  187. Laura Palmer*

    Does anyone here do corporate training? I’ve always been passionate about training at my current retail company, where I’ve been for 10 years, but we don’t have a full time training position. Also, I’m sick of doing retail for 10 years. I guess what I’m wondering is, is a significant amount of time working on training initiatives (new hire training, technician training, a 4 month stint at our corporate HQ to write and develop training materials) even though it was never in my official job title something that would be able to get me a corporate training job elsewhere?

    1. TooTiredToThink*

      I am not a manager or anything – but I would think so – especially since you have 4 months at HQ. Some places will think that’s a good starter experience; some won’t.

      Also: A lot of LMS have free trials. You might want to play around with some of them so that you can be familiar with them and say as much.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      td. org
      I started as a corporate trainer and now I am an executive of leadership development. TD offers tons of free or small fee lunch and learns, invest in yourself and take their train the trainer class- which is usually a 2-day course. Retail corporate training is a niche, despite 20+ years doing corporate training, I am not likely to get hired into a retail corporate training role. Google google google, everything you can about how to be a trainer. Also, I won’t hire a trainer that can’t also design/write curriculum. Currently, you are a subject matter expert, you need to now learn the skills to take your knowledge of your area expertise to teach people it.

  188. OG Karyn*

    This is only like, tangentially related to work, but since we were talking about chronic illness/work issues, I have kind of a novel one.

    I work for myself, my own paralegal business. I was also just diagnosed with thyroid issues – which explains so much about my exhaustion and freezing cold, dry skin. When I worked outside the house, I managed to wake up at a normal time every day – 7am – but between working for myself and thus having no boss, moving in with my partner, who doesn’t have to get up til 8:30-8:45 every day, and the health issues that make me want to sleep all the time (to say nothing of the time change making it dark and cold in the morning), it’s become VERY difficult for me to wake up at 7am every day. I go to bed early saying I’m going to get up, and them my alarm goes off and I just roll over and sleep, and then before I know it, it’s noon.

    I feel so incredibly lazy, and discouraged, and the worst part is that I still have to get work done AND study for the bar exam in July. I’m supposed to be getting up early, working from 9-5, and then studying at night, but I’m having such a hard time actually doing it. Any advice from you work-from-homers, or work-with-thyroid-issues-ers?

    1. fposte*

      If you haven’t tried a daylight alarm clock, I would recommend adding that to the mix ASAP–Amazon has some good ones. Mine also has chirping birds that grow steadily louder (like, a recording of real birds, not a computer chirp, like a dawn chorus that never stops). I can still want to go back to bed, but it moves being awake to the default.

      For the thyroid stuff, I think it’s mostly just waiting it out until thyroid replacement starts getting your levels back to normal. Sorry there’s nothing faster to suggest on that front, but hope it happens for you soon.

      1. OG Karyn*

        Oooooh I’ve never heard of a daylight alarm clock! I have a Hue lighting system (thanks, brother bear!) and I see they make these kind of lights, too. What a great idea!

        1. KayEss*

          I found daylight alarm clocks too gentle… chirping birds just don’t cut it for my depressed, also-just-diagnosed-with-thyroid-issues self. A better solution for me has been one of those SAD sunlight lamps plugged into an outlet timer and scheduled to coordinate with my regular alarm.

    2. Colette*

      What jumps out at me is that you are studying at night – are you actually getting enough sleep to get up at 7? And since you work for yourself, do you need 2 full hours between getting up and starting work? Is there a way you could cut back on that so that you don’t have to get up until, say, 8?

      (I believe the medication for hypothyroidism takes about a week to start kicking in, so hopefully you will start having more energy soon.)

      1. OG Karyn*

        I’ve been on the medication for a month now but I think they are still trying to figure out the right dose. I’m also seeing a nutritionist on Tuesday to see if I can modify my diet for more energy.

        As far as sleeping – I’ve been getting 7-8 hours routinely lately, but the problem is that it never seems to be enough for me to get up when my alarm goes off. I don’t understand how it’s happened because I was able to do it for four years without any issue. I *like* being awake early, even – I like the calm. But it’s just gotten so hard for me to make myself do it.

        I feel like I need at least an hour before I’m in the mindset to work – I shower in the morning and have a horde of cats to attend to, plus breakfast. But there is perhaps a way to get up at 8 instead of 7 and just push my study hours around a bit. If I cut back an hour every day on work, it won’t really make a difference in the long run, so maybe that’s an option.

        1. Colette*

          7-8 hours may not be enough (even if it used to be). I’d try bumping it up to 8-9 hours and see if that makes a difference.

    3. The Rain In Spain*

      Are you able to cut down your work hours a bit while you focus on getting your thyroid levels back to normal and studying for the bar? I did manage to study for the bar while working full time but it was really rough and draining (and that was without health issues!). Another option to consider is shifting your hours later- so if you aren’t getting up until 8:30, maybe you work from 9:30-4/5 and then study after that. Good luck!

      1. OG Karyn*

        I’m wondering if maybe I can at least cut down an hour a day. I don’t want to do more than that because, after all, I have to pay rent and buy food, but an hour a day won’t really make that much difference. I just wish I knew what happened to me that I was so able to function at 7am before and now suddenly it’s a slog. I’ve even canceled doctors appointments early in the morning because I couldn’t make myself get up. It’s so frustrating. :( Any advice for studying, at any rate? I can’t afford a $5000 bar prep course (ughhh) but I have a flashcard app that I’m hand-copying from.

        1. WellRed*

          What happened us the thyroid issue. I have been on medication almost 20 years, mostly succesful but recently tried switching to generic. After a few successful numbers my TSH went waaaay down. It’s been a foggy, no energy couple of months while we get it where it needs to be.

        2. The Rain In Spain*

          Sorry for the delay, hope you see this! I used themis for my bar prep (vs the more expensive options out there)- what I liked was that you could self pace, so while most people don’t start studying super early, I started after Thanksgiving (for the Feb exam). It’s all online, so I would use my lunch break at work to watch lectures or do questions/work on outlines. Typically I would get in that 45 min-1 hour at work, come home and prep/eat dinner, watch one 30 min show with my spouse, and then study for 2-3 more hours. Weekends were typically just huge study blocks, but I would cap it at 6-8 hours because you just don’t retain it all, but it was helpful to get a bunch of lectures out of the way and review what I had studied earlier in the week. Good luck!

    4. Nanc*

      Oh thyroids–why you gotta be so problematic? The good news: you know what’s causing it and isn’t it a relief? Knowing what I was dealing with and having a great doctor made me start feeling better right away.
      Now the not-necessarily-bad-news-but-more-a-reality-check.
      1. It may take awhile to hit the right balance of thyroid meds. It took a full year for me and since then I’ve had several adjustments (it’s been 8 years since my diagnosis). My doctor tests me 4 times a year because she wants to catch any change early. 1-2 times a year is usually normal.
      2. Embrace the nap for the time being. You will need the rest while your body re-adjusts. You may not have to do it every day but try a scheduling one a couple of times a week–I still nap after work every Wednesday during daylight savings time because the time change sssuuuuuuucccccckkkkkss. I also had luck with getting up a half hour earlier, getting completely ready and then “napping” for 30 minutes on the couch before I left for work. And try going for a short 10 or 15 minute walk every single day. My vitamin D levels were very low when I was diagnosed so my doctor told me to take supplements. That did help my energy levels.
      3. Since you’re still gonna crave sleep for awhile try to really get into a routine. Make your lunch and set out your clothes the night before so you can sleep as long as possible. Cook big batches of stuff and freeze it for lunch and dinner (that works for me because I don’t mind eating the same thing every day).
      4. Is there anyway you can postpone the bar exam? The brain fog thing is real. I was amazed at how differently my brain worked once I was at the right dose. If not, can you commit to not studying for a month while you adjust to the meds?
      5. Hopefully you have a nice boss. Share with them that you’ve have a diagnosis of a chronic condition and you’re working with your doctor to find the best treatment. I did tell my boss what my diagnosis was since I face planted in the office one day and he took me to the emergency room (fun day!). As you work towards getting the right level of medication you will have some ups and downs. If they’re not nice, disregard the above and hopefully you’ll be able ride it out without affecting your work!
      6. This may seem weird, but once I got to a better level of meds, I rearranged my bedroom and office. It was a brain re-set thing for me. Moving the furniture helped me realize that I was living and not just functioning in a much healthier body.
      7. As you may know, there is a lot of misinformation out there on Ye Olde World Wide Web. I actually found Thyroid for Dummies very helpful. Your library may have a copy in either dead tree or electronic format.

      Good luck with all this. It’s not going to fix itself overnight but in a year you’re going to look back and be excited by how much better 125mcg (or whatever your dose is) of thyroid meds makes you feel.

      1. OG Karyn*

        Hello!

        Thankfully, I am my own boss, so I have the nicest boss in the world. ;) I wish I could move the bar exam, but I’ve already put off taking it for five years thanks to other health issues. I HAVE to get it done this summer or else I have to go through the background check again which is expensive AF. It’s in July, so there’s no getting around studying, but I can reduce the hours I spend working to account for that.

        I feel so lazy when I nap. :( I work at home already, and I feel like it’s not fair to my partner who works all day and then comes home and has to do his share of the housework too. Before I got on the meds, I was *involuntarily* napping every day for an hour or two. I do like the idea of an afternoon walk, though – even if it’s just to the coffee shop to get tea.

        Thanks for your advice and kindness. :)

      2. The Ginger Ginger*

        Hello fellow thyroid problem haver! I agree with everything Nanc said above, but I want to tell you straight out: Stop feeling lazy. Do yourself the kindness of not beating yourself up like that. You have to reframe your mindset here. Your thryoid drives your entire metabolism, and if it drives you off a cliff into the ocean and you start drowning it’s not because of a moral failing, it’s because your lungs are full of water.

        Okay, that metaphor was weird, but what I’m saying is, you’re tired because you’re sick – in a serious, chronic way, not because you can’t be arsed to get out of bed. Meds will absolutely help, but thyroid meds take a LONG time to fine tune, for a while you’ll still be too low, then you might swing high (which will still make you tired btw), then you might be good for a bit and then trend low again. It’s going to be a long, exhausting haul to get yourself back on track, so be kind to yourself around this. I remember how tired I was (like falling asleep at my desk at work) when my thyroid lost its mind, and I have never, ever felt anything like that before or since. It is new levels of exhaustion.

        And for sweet baby angels’ sakes consider a nap. Naps are your friends. When my thyroid was wacked, I would sleep my whole lunch break just to make it through the rest of my day. I was constantly exhausted. I allowed myself one cup of coffee in the morning (I didn’t drink caffeine before that) to make it to nap time, then let nap time carry me through the end of the work day. I was too afraid of caffeine addiction and how it would impact my migraines to do more, but you do what feels right for your body.

        If you can handle low impact exercise (like 10 minutes of walking or something) take a couple breaks to do that when you feel up to it. Beyond that, you have to practice immaculate sleep habits. Get on and stay on a schedule, aim for 8-9 hours of sleep at night (more if you need it, but the same every night – including weekends). Take your nap (or naps, I was up to 2 a day at one point) at the same time every day, if you’re able. Don’t have caffeine past a certain point in the afternoon. Eat as healthy as you can. Cut back on alcohol. Don’t have blue screen lights in the bedroom. All the stuff that people do when they’re suffering from severe insomnia? Do that, even though you’ve got what feels like the opposite problem. Insomnia-sufferers do it because it’s the easiest way for the body to rest, and you want some good clean rest here. You’re still going to be tired when the alarm goes off because rogue thyroid’s suck, but do your best. And keep in mind, depending what your thyroid is doing, you might be sleeping for 8-9 hours, but it might not be good sleep where you’re making it to sustained sub-REM sleep for appropriate lengths of time, which compounds the issue. Only other thing, I know you’ve got STUFF to do, but you have to allow yourself the rest you need. Pushing yourself too hard when you’re this sick and exhausted isn’t going to empower you to do good work or retain the things you’re studying. It will just make you sicker, and possibly introduce mistakes into your work, and the brain fog will interfere with your studies.. That’s frustrating and maybe not what you want to hear, but YOU’RE ILL. You have to allow your body to do what it needs to do to make you well again.

        And no matter how perfectly or imperfectly you enact any of this advice, forgive your body and yourself because you will STILL be tired. It’s not your fault; you’re not lazy. You’re sick at the moment, and while you can remediate the impact a bit, I’m sorry to say the problem is going to persist until you can get your levels evened out. So working with your doctor is already the best thing you can be doing, which means some of this will just come down to patience and kindness to yourself.

        1. OG Karyn*

          Your note made me cry. It was incredibly validating, and I appreciate that so much.

          I’m very lucky to have a very supportive partner, but I have to be honest, it doesn’t help when he goes to bed SUPER SUPER late (like 2am) and gets up at 9, whereas I want to sleep from 10pm until 7am and feel bad waking him up with an alarm, or with a light that turns on automatically. I wish we could be on the same sleep schedule, but we aren’t, so I am trying to work around his. Naps are probably an answer, it’s just hard to stop feeling lazy about it (especially since I have a supermom who, at the age of 55, gets up at 4:30am, lawyers all day, and then goes to bed at 10).

          We ARE going to start using our gym membership more – a friend gifted us a 3 month membership to the JCC so I want to try swimming more. A big part of this, and why I’m seeing a nutritionist on Tuesday, is related to being overweight. Not a ton, but enough to be noticeable. I feel like I have the same issue with exercise that people with fibromyalgia have – the exhaustion makes you not want to exercise while exercise will help you not be exhausted.

          I feel like I have CONSTANT brain fog – like I want to work, I desperately WANT to, and I NEED to, but last week, I billed only $300 – wayyyy below what I need to – because I just… stared at the screen for hours a day, trying to focus and being unable to even type. I just started this 100mg pill – and I think another part of the issue is that BECAUSE I have had trouble getting on a sleep schedule, I’m taking it at random times. Sometimes 7am, sometimes 10am, sometimes noon. I know I need to regulate that as well.

          Sorry, I don’t mean to sound so whiny about it! It’s just extraordinarily frustrating to feel like I have no control over my body. I finally got the bipolar disorder under control, and now this! Sometimes I miss having mania just because I had ENERGY!

          Thank you, again, for your sweet, thoughtful, and understanding note.

          1. Nanc*

            Let me channel my mom and scold you: take your pill at the same time, every day, on an empty stomach and don’t have walnuts or calcium supplements within 4 hours! It makes a difference.
            Without fail I wake up to pee at 3:30 a.m. so that’s when I take mine (too much information but getting your thyroid to straighten up and fly right means consistency!). Oddly enough, once I got in that habit I would fall asleep again very quickly and feel great when I got up at 5:30.
            As The Ginger Ginger said above, it’s a long process, in fact, a life-long process and you will get the hang of it–I promise!

            1. valentine*

              You’re fighting yourself a lot and doing yourself the additional disservice of negatively comparing yourself to others. Farmers get up in the middle of the night when I am just hitting my stride. They are no more overachievers than I am an underachiever. (Do you really want to be a lawyer or is that more Mom comparison? I only ask because of the way you described her. If you’re going to constantly compare your lawyering to hers, you’re setting yourself up for further unhappiness.) Stop comparing and set aside any guilt as soon as you sense it. It’s going in a box. You may look at it when you’re past this crunch time.

              You need a metric ton of sleep, energy, and time. (When I sleep more than usual (I no longer insult it with the term “oversleep”), I figure I needed it because I feel fine or even good, whereas, when I stay in bed too long, I get bored.)

              Make a list of everything that needs doing for the household and how much you, personally, have to do (just grooming, I am thinking). Let partner deal with the cats or hire someone to feed them. What else can you reassign? Can you budget for a cleaning or meal service? Can you create a meal coop or make two meals a week that you freeze, so no daily cooking? (Or switch to frozen foods.) No money? (Can you get a loan?) Partner unwilling? Something’s gotta give, and it can’t be you.

              You’ll have to choose whether to prioritize work or studying. You need to cut back somewhere and an hour isn’t enough (and possibly may never be?). Let’s say you choose work. You’re going to bed (track bedtime vs what time you fall asleep for a month or two) around midnight, but then your body’s happy to cancel morning and grab five more hours. Plan for 10 hours of sleep and adjust up before you adjust down. You may need 12. If that works, great. If not, try 10 plus a nap after four hours of work. Just schedule the nap into your day. It’s a fabulous tradition. Ask Spain. Give it a month or two and reassess.

              If your work is editing or anything to do with words or law, that’s probably hurting you. You’re always working (because studying is work) or sleeping, your body’s saying no, and it’s not sustainable. If you have no or very little downtime, that’s working against you.

          2. The Ginger Ginger*

            You’re so welcome! Anyone who has experienced the awfulness of an uncooperative thyroid will absolutely understand what you’re going through. You are not alone!

            I don’t know if you’ll swing back by and see this response, but I’m typing it anyway! Consistency is really key, just like Nanc said. You have to find a schedule that works for you and stick to it. You will feel loads better just managing that. It’s going to feel super labor intensive at first because sleep, meds, eating time, all of it has to be scheduled and stuck to, but once it becomes more habitual, it will take up less space in your head, and you really will start feeling better and more in control of things.

            And you probably know this, but because you mentioned your weight – your thyroid is absolutely contributing to that as well. So work out to feel better, by all means, but don’t despair or get frustrated if you’re not losing the weight as easily as you expect. While your thyroid is wonk-a-do, it’s going to be tough to shift the pounds, especially if you’re hypo (which sounds like you might be). I personally was hyper, and was one of the lucky 12% to still gain weight (wtf, body?), and then my anti-thyroid medication dropped me so low into hypo territory, my doctor wasn’t sure it would ever recover (it did, thank goodness). I was dragging myself to an intensive bootcamp at the gym at the time (honestly, do not recommend this – do what feels good, learn from my mistake), and while I noticed that I was toning up, I did not drop a single pound the entire time. I was so demoralized and was really hard on myself for a long time. Just….don’t do that. Work out, yes. It’s good and helpful, but listen to your body’s limits, and don’t do things that make you feel bad (physically or mentally), while you get this all under control. Once your levels even out, you can start pushing harder on weight-loss goals. For now, working out is successful as long as you feel good, no matter what your weight is doing.

            1. OG Karyn*

              I did stop back to see if you replied to this because your first reply was so thorough! Yeah, I can’t do intense workouts, I learned that LOOOONG ago (I actually only have one working lung as a result of some childhood illnesses so I could never do intense cardio). My partner and I do yoga together sometimes, and I am trying to swim at the JCC more often (plus hot tub!).

              I’m glad it’s not just me not being able to drop the pounds, though. I’m subclinical hypo (Hashimoto’s runs in the family) so my numbers are fine, but my thyroglobulin was off the charts high. So my doctor put me on the synthroid anyway, because, as she put it, “I don’t care what the numbers say – what I care about is how you feel and your symptoms, and you have ALL the symptoms.”

              I started using my Hue lights to slowly turn on by 8:00am, so it’s a gentle wakeup but it keeps me from just rolling over in the cold, dark room and going back to sleep. That seems to have helped, and as soon as I wake up, I take the synthroid – it’s by my bed. I am going to try to start building a nap into the day – maybe around 2 or 3 in the afternoon – to see if that helps the energy level. It’s hard not to think I’m being lazy, but, as you said, my body is not acting right at the moment so I have to deal with what’s going on, not what I WISH was going on, and not what’s going on for other people.

              I really appreciate your thoughtful replies and support. :)

              1. The Ginger Ginger*

                Yay, I’m glad you stopped back by! And yeah, when thyroid’s go, they try to burn everything else down on the way out of the building. Weight, energy, emotions/mood/mental health, concentration. It impacts a TON. It’s pretty much the worst. And some of the connections between how thyroid impacts things like mood, mental health, and concentration are really poorly understood. My doctor literally said – yeah, that’s probably related to your thyroid problems, we don’t really know how though. (Thanks, doc!) So if you’re struggling with any or all of those things, even odds are it’s your thyroid’s fault. Things will get better as your levels improve; it will just take some time. Good luck to you!

                Oh! And have fun reading medicine labels now. I discovered during my most recent cold that a lot of OTC decongestants shouldn’t be taken by folks who have thyroid problems, so that’s….great. I plan to ask my doc about it at my next appointment.

  189. bumbletea*

    Since leaving my old (stealth toxic) workplace a little over a year ago for a new organization with more opportunities and a full-team of chocolate teapot makers (instead of being a team of one like I had been in every position since entering teapot making), I had my first real employee review this week. When writing my portion, Allison’s advice on employee reviews really helped, and I’m excited to report that my boss agreed with my responses on everything fully and praised me for my contributions.

    I’m also really excited to say that this lead to me being promoted to Manager of Tea Cozies and receiving my first actual raise in a position that wasn’t variable. A base raise! After coming from a company where I was only promoted after 3 years from Teapot Specialist to Teapot Professional, despite blowing all of the set goals out of the water every year, never receiving even a cost of living raise, and only being given ONE increase that was contingent on goals that only other teams (like the Teapot Export team) were able to close (think a goal being like “ship out X number of teapots” when I make them and don’t have any control over demand or logistics), this is a huge change.

    Leaving my old organization was really intimidating because they definitely instilled in you the idea that they were the only ones who would really give you a chance and that you’d never succeed anywhere else. This proved them wrong in so many ways, but especially in regards to their continued “you’re not ready yet, but we could see you reaching that level someday” statement whenever I asked about my future at the old company.

    I’m still coming out of the fog from that place and gaining more confidence in my expertise, and this really made my week!

  190. Youth*

    Applied for three jobs about two weeks ago and have since been contacted by all of them for phone interviews! One then asked for a writing sample and, after reading it, asked me to come in for a face-to-face interview. My job search has been going for over a year, and I’ve never had this level of interest. It’s nuts.

  191. T-shirt or not T-shirt*

    This is something I’m sure I’m overthinking, but you never know. I’ve been with my company for several months, but I’ve quickly gained a reputation for being professional and a go-getter. My director (grand boss) recently called me a rock star, and that has been echoed by several people at all levels of the company. So no issues with my performance or others’ perception of my professionalism.

    My company is in manufacturing, and we have a uniform – jeans and a company-provided shirt. Everyone from the plant manager to the people on the assembly line adheres to the same policy. The company uses a uniform service that offers multiple styles and colors of shirts to choose from. We get a clothing allowance, but can also buy as many shirts as we want with our own money. Just about every “classic” style of shirt you can imagine is available, minus anything flowy or super trendy (think polos, button-ups, sweaters). The company also sponsors a lot of charitable events and has T-shirts made for these events, and for other things like Earth Day. We’re allowed to wear any event T-shirt at any time if it was provided by the company. But the bottom line is, all shirts worn at work must have a company logo. The culture here is extremely laid back. Management staff tends to wear polos/golf shirts most of the time, but it’s not uncommon to see even managers and HR in T-shirts from time to time.

    I am plus sized (18/20). I can easily find plenty of styles of shirts in my size, but our uniform company sucks. Capital S, Sucks. Lead times are ridiculous, and since the shirts get embroidered with a logo, there are no returns allowed. So it’s common to wait 6+ weeks, only to end up with a bunch of shirts that don’t fit. Sizing is inconsistent, a lot of the fabrics are cheap and clingy, and in particular, a lot of the women’s dressier shirts I’ve ordered are undersized and cling very un-flatteringly to my mid-section. Also, the women’s shirts are shorter in length, which is every plus-size girl’s worst nightmare. I should also add that layering is out of the question, because it is unreasonably hot in our building 75% of the year.

    I’m so frustrated with tugging, straightening, and never feeling comfortable or attractive at work. I like to look feminine, but if I had to choose between that and having my considerable fat rolls on obvious display, I’m going to opt to hide the rolls. After months of shirt angst, I’ve decided to collect as many event T-shirts as I can and wear them almost exclusively. At least they’re fairly consistently sized and forgiving. I can still pull out nicer, though unflattering, shirts for customer meetings. I’ve also ordered a couple of styles of men’s shirts from the uniform company and I’m waiting on them to arrive. I tried to order more feminine colors and sizes that I won’t be swimming in, but I suspect they’ll clearly look like men’s shirts. The bonus is that they shouldn’t be clingy and they’ll have extra length.

    Okay, all of that said…I’m on a management path here. It’s within my sights within the near future. I believe in dressing for the job you want, but I *HATE* the shirt options. Losing weight will help, and I’m working on it, but it will be months before I lose enough to feel really good in these shirts – if ever. Am I going to set myself back professionally by wearing T-shirts or men’s shirts most of the time? Is this even a thing I should worry about?

    1. Dr. Anonymous*

      Oh, that sounds awful. I do worry about clothing holding you back because the world is unfair that way and people form impressions unconcsiously. I wonder about things like getting the uniform company to send you shirts to try on before they’re embroidered or getting a local embroidery business to copy the logo onto good clothes that fit you and hoping no one looks too closely. I also think the office that contracts with these losers might be able to push back on the return policy when they send you something that’s clearly not really the industry standard labeled size. You may be able to get the men’s shirts altered if they’re too big in the shoulders. It’s a big expense but you have learned the hard way how important it is for clothes to fit. Certainly a men’s polo or button down isn’t a men’s shirt if it’s on a woman. It’s YOUR shirt!

      I hope things go well for you. This sounds just lousy!

      1. valentine*

        You shouldn’t have to change your body to comply with an unnecessary rule.

        Ask your manager if you can send tops that fit properly to have the logo put on. (If they bring up material, offer to conform, but don’t volunteer that straightaway.) If Spandex is allowed, Ashley Stewart has a ton of flattering styles like ruched (be prepared to fit in an eight-size range, though).

    2. Grace Less*

      Feeling confident in your appearance is such a big part of projecting confidence. Do you know who works with your vendor to choose the shirts — marketing, HR, etc.? When I ordered embroidered products for a company, the vendor always sent me sizing samples. We’d have employees of various sizes and shapes try them on, and then the description could include sizing info like “runs small, runs large, 5-buttons, not 6”, etc. if your employers are decent, when you bring your concerns to them, they’ll include you in the sizing samplers next go-round, to help find things that are comfortable for you and similar,h sized/shaped colleagues.

  192. baby celiac*

    Turns out I have celiac disease–of the “cross-contamination is a problem” variety–and am wondering how exactly people handle this in casual professional settings without being “that person” or getting the stigma that comes along with the (unfair) impression that folks avoiding gluten are doing so out of choice or making a mountain of a molehill. Especially as I’m likely to be in interview settings involving restaurants (in addition to casual settings). Experience for scripts that have worked for you—or ways that you’ve seen people handle this that did NOT go over well? (FWIW, I’m mostly enormously relieved by the news because it explains a lot, but I’m having a lot of anxiety about social/borderline-social-professional situations!). Thanks for all thoughts!

    1. Namast'ay in Bed*

      Honestly, the fact that you can say “I have celiac disease” usually eliminates most people’s gross “that person” feelings. Most sit-down restaurant settings probably won’t be a problem, most restaurants these days offer gluten free options and take things very seriously, like in a “here comes the chef/manager to chat with you to ensure you have what you need” way. (Or at least that’s what I experienced with my celiac boss.)

      Congrats on your diagnosis! I mean, I’m sorry you have it, but I know it can be a huge relief to just not be swimming in the “I don’t know what’s wrong with me” swamp.

    2. irene adler*

      I have to avoid gluten as well. Not to the degree you need to, though.
      My experience:
      Restaurants: get the menu well ahead of time. See if there are gluten-free items on it. If not, contact them and ask if they can fix a menu item gluten-free (salad without croutons, for example. Or substituting a side of rice or a potato instead of egg noodles or toast). Generally, if you can get something, folks don’t fuss over what it is, or that you are avoiding gluten.

      Unfortunately, most restaurants have a disclaimer that they aren’t totally strict about keeping the gluten-free prep away from the regular food prep (example: using the same fryer oil for both food types). So you’ll have to watch for that.

      At my monthly professional organization meetings, we have catering. So most items I can’t have. They usually have a salad so I just remove the croutons and I’m okay (again with the salad!). Again, I have a plate with food on it, so folks don’t comment about the lack of bread, or fried chicken on said plate. Sometimes I eat at home before the event, and just nibble on the salad.

      At work, I bring my own food which I prepare myself. And it’s really good, too-folks want to share.

      IN general, it’s not been a problem. Sometimes folks will ask why I turned down dessert (pie or cake or other baked goods). Then I say, “Go ahead and have mine. Watching my weight, TYVM!”

    3. fposte*

      I don’t have celiac, but my impression, based on working with people who do have it and negotiating my own dietary challenges, is 1) use the technical term and expand only when necessary and 2) be matter-of-fact. (I just Googled and got several hits on “celiac scripts for restaurant,” so you could find some templates if you want.) Basically, you want to minimize unasked-for explanation and keep even asked-for explanation simple so you can move the subject on to your fabulous skills. You may get somebody who says “Oh, I don’t tolerate gluten well either!” That’s annoying, but rather than make a point of differentiating I’d just say something like “Yes, and my doctor is very stern about the damage mine has caused and wants to keep me out of the hospital, and I’m all for that.”

      In general, people will take their cue from you–if you are calm, competent, and undramatic it says to them they don’t need to worry about handling this because you’ve got it.

  193. TechWorker*

    I’m not sure if anyone is following my tales of woe :D but I’m happy to say things finally feel like they’re improving.

  194. Naiara*

    I’m interviewing for a job in a department that is 24/7/365. Other departments get 11 public holidays paid off with 2 floating holidays. Would it be outlandish for me to negotiate for those 13 paid holidays to be added into my PTO since in my position, I would be working those holidays?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t know about outlandish, but I wouldn’t expect that you’d be successful, because you wouldn’t necessarily be working all of them. The department being 24/7/365 doesn’t mean that every employee works every day of the year; I would be surprised if they didn’t have some sort of holiday coverage schedule in place with either holiday pay or comp time for people who do have to work holidays.

    2. Teapot Librarian*

      I’d expect that the department has policies for making their employees “whole”–I’d ask for details before trying to negotiate something different. You never know; their policies might be better than what you’re thinking of asking for!

    3. Susan K*

      I work at a place where some departments cover 24/7/365, and when we work holidays, we are paid overtime. For example, if I work on Memorial Day, I get paid 8 hours for the paid holiday plus time-and-a-half for the 8 hours I work (in other words, 20 hours’ pay for 8 hours of work on the holiday). This is how most places handle it in my industry. If this is the case, it would not be reasonable to ask for an additional 13 days of PTO because you would still get paid extra on the holidays. If someone asked, it would be a hard no. Also, I would imagine that you would still get the two floating holidays.

      I think your best bet is to ask (during the offer stage) how you will be compensated for working on holidays. Most places will give you extra compensation for employees working on holidays so you’re not just working 13 extra days for free.

    4. Half-Caf Latte*

      Not outlandish, but I’d ask how they are handled before attempting to negotiate, and not assume they’re not already accounted for. We are a 24/7 operation, and we get 6 paid holidays. All staff get 8 hours of holiday time credited to their banks 30 days before the holiday. Staff in the round-the-clock departments schedule a day off sometime in the 30 days prior or 30 days post the holiday, staff in “regular” hours departments use the time on the actual holiday.

      Those who work the holiday get both the 8 hours and time and a half pay.

    5. CupcakeCounter*

      They probably already have something in place for this, My mom worked for a hospital and they are also a 24/7/365 place. She got all of the paid holidays but sometimes just got them on a different day. So if she had to work Christmas she would get December 26 off as a paid holiday. Plus they rotated so she only worked 1 major and 1 “minor” holiday a year (if you worked Memorial Day you would be off 4th of July and Labor Day, if you worked Thanksgiving you would be off Christmas and New Years) and the hospital was fine with people switching things around if certain holidays were more important to some than others (such as the single 20-something with no local family who likes NYE parties so would happily work Christmas so that parents can have Christmas morning with their children).

  195. Roja*

    So… I’m really proud of myself right now. I’m moving in the summer for greater professional opportunities and so will be applying for lots of gigs/jobs this year. The problem has been 1) that I’m utterly terrified of applying to anything because I have very little confidence and think no one will hire me (nb: this is ridiculous; I haven’t had any shortage of job offers thus far, but still) and 2) haven’t had the proper materials. I’m in dance, so I need a resume, a CV, a new headshot, a performance reel, AND a choreography reel. Not only is that an overwhelming amount of stuff, but it’s also super, super hard to find example resumes for dance that are in my sub-field, as everything out there I can find is tailored to 1) business/corporate job applications, which look absolutely nothing like my field or 2) geared towards dancers who are doing the Broadway/NYC circuit. Both of those look super different than what I need.

    But! But! I think I’ve pieced together enough info to get a swanky new resume put together AND it’s only page. I’m a little worried because I’ve always had job descriptions/bullet points/whatever, and have none on this one. It looks odd to me, but hey, all of the other resumes from similar artists I can find online are the same way, and it also doesn’t make me look like a job hopper like my old resume did. I’ve got different sections for teaching, performing, choreography, and production/admin, so it looks clean, organized, and diverse, AND it makes me look like I’ve been gainfully employed (which I have been) continuously.

    So anyways, I’m still nervous but happy. Time to fill it out for a CV and get all the other materials going… If anyone is in dance and has tips, please do share!

    1. LaDeeDa*

      I love loft resumes- not their resume writers, but their formats. I have been using them for years, their formats are amazing and beautiful. Get your content right, and it is worth the $100 for their formats. Good luck!

        1. LaDeeDa*

          OMG thank you! I have written people’s resumes for years, and then sent them over to Loft to get the desgin right! I had no idea!

        2. LaDeeDa*

          Just to clarify, I think their resume writing is a ripoff. When I was going from manager to executive I paid them $500 to up my game, and then had to fight for a refund because they did such a crap job. I do like their design though with existing content.

      2. Roja*

        Thanks for the recommendation, and thanks, Alison for the warning! I did poke through their formats for some ideas, so although I definitely won’t use them as a service it is nice to look through and see options.

  196. Lily E*

    Quick gut check needed!

    I am a female working in an all male office. I recently noticed a couple of my male coworkers are changing out of commuting clothing or into workout clothing in one of our conference rooms on a daily basis, instead of walking down the hall to the building bathroom. We work in a casual environment, but this seems too weird to me. I am in management (though not their managers) so I could say something to put a stop to it. However… is this actually inappropriate or is it just me?

    1. fposte*

      Unless the conference room’s in need or they’re leaving it gross, I don’t see a problem.

    2. Anon4this*

      I’m not a manager but yes please say something. As a female employee, I would be so uncomfortable existing in the office space knowing that men were changing in one of the conference rooms. That’s what bathrooms are for.

      1. fposte*

        I’m surprised–can you expand on why? The only thing I would have added is to let the female employees know that they have the same prerogative. I’m presuming that any windows have shades drawn.

      2. Arctic*

        That’s not what bathrooms are for though. And changing in a small stall can be very difficult for some people. not to mention it involves putting clothes down on floors that may not be hygenic.

    3. Jess*

      If you can see it, and not just see someone enter a room in one outfit and exit in another, it’s inappropriate. If it’s a locked door with closed blinds, it’s a convenience (assuming you have equal access to do the same), but you still might want to change expectations sooner rather than later, since it’s not a great look when investors come to visit.

        1. Jess*

          So it is an uncomfortable situation waiting to happen :)
          You -can- mitigate the chances of someone walking in via culture+signage. Personally, I’d probably use a conference room like this over a bathroom if I could reasonably expect that no one would open the door (and probably would stand with my back to the door close enough to push it closed again just in case).

    5. LCL*

      If they can lock the door and can’t be viewed by a normal person, and aren’t holding up anyone’s morning meeting, let it ride. And, you should also feel free to use it as a changing room.

    6. Alice*

      My opinion: changing clothes, as long as it’s private — sure. But any kind of grooming — hair brushing, deodorant — should be in the bathroom. I don’t know why I think that….

    7. Overeducated*

      If the options are empty conference room and bathroom with stalls, my bike commuter colleague and I (both female) always choose the conference room! It feels more public changing in a bathroom stall when other people are coming in and out for their morning constitutionals, makeup, etc., not to mention cramped and sometimes a little gross. If you have private individual bathrooms with locks that’s a different story, but as long as nobody else who needs the conference room is getting bumped, I still don’t see what’s so inappropriate.

    8. CheeryO*

      I’m a woman, and I use a small conference room to change sometimes just because it’s quicker and easier than trying to use a bathroom stall. As long as they’re not waving their underwear around on the way in or out, I don’t really see the issue.

    9. LawBee*

      I don’t see an issue with it. If the door is closed, which is kind of a universal sign for “at least knock first”, then so what?

    11. iglwif*

      Does the conference room have glass walls or a glass door? Is the clothes-changing interfering with others’ need to use the room for actual meetings? Are the guys changing in there leaving some kind of mess? Have you been told that your male colleagues can use the conference room for changing but you have to use the bathroom?

      If not, I personally would have no issue with this (although it would definitely make me more cautious about knocking first before opening closed doors).

      I never change in public/shared washrooms if I can help it, because
      – the toilets in them tend not to have lids, and Things Can Fall In There
      – sometimes there is gross stuff on the floor
      – I always feel rushed because what if someone needs the washroom for actual washroom reasons?
      – sometimes there are Smells, and often there are horrible air-freshener Smells
      – have I mentioned the ever-present danger that an item of clothing (or worse, my phone or earbuds) will fall in the toilet?

  197. Gumby*

    Not that I am job searching at the moment, but if I were – who would I use as references (have been holding on to this question since the thread earlier in the week). The ones I am inclined to use are starred.

    1. Current manager: works part time, oversees none of my work, I do on occasion answer questions that he has but he has little to no insight into my daily tasks, but he is – technically – my manager. Our interaction is limited: nodding if we pass in the halls and I email him if I’m out sick or want to schedule vacation. No one else here does what I do and they were basically casting around to find someone to be my actual manager.

    2. Past manager 1 at my current job: actually cared about what I did, supported my goals, met with me almost weekly, etc. But he works in a much different area than I do and it was a “what have you been up to” type of check-in. Also there is tension between the company that he now works for and my current company, which is unrelated to me but might affect things.

    3. Past manager 2 at current job: total non-starter since he was even less involved than current manager.

    4. Manger at previous job: I really liked her, she could speak to my work but that job was in a different area (teapot testers vs. teapot production scheduling). She’s retired now. I’m not sure how to get in contact with her and I strongly suspect she has moved to Hawaii.

    5. Manger at job before that: almost 10 years out of date; was a teapot creator but did oversee my work as a teapot tester. However, at that job I was increasingly hating teapot testing and while I absolutely did my job well, I did not do any of the above-and-beyond that I normally would do in a job I liked. Or at least not the above and beyond that he wanted (“but if you test the handles while we work on the pots you can save so much time” “sure, we can do that, but we still need to test the handles once they are *on* the teapots” “but the teapot creators are behind schedule so you get less time” “we cannot test the teapots in half of the time” “that’s why you test the handles first separately” “but we STILL need to retest the handles once they are on the teapots!”).

    6. Manger at job before that: knew teapot testing, great manager, would say good things about me but is 13 years out of date. Also I refuse to test teapots any more. OTOH, he is the one who gave me ways to use other skills outside or straight testing.

    7. *Co-worker at current job: works closely with me on about half of the things I do, would say nice things but is not technically my manager. Could possibly round that out with one of several co-workers who worked closely with me on the other half of what I do.

    8. *Co-worker at same jobs as 4 and 5 above: my counterpart in teapot creators (he was manager of teapot creators, I was manager of teapot testers, we both reported up to #4), we worked very well together, he’s extremely technically proficient and happy to serve as a reference, likes to help out former reports and co-workers, has been a reference for me for 2 previous job searches, maybe a bit stale as a reference?

    1. fposte*

      You’re overthinking it. They don’t have to be up-to-date or share your views on teapottery, and managers have a lot of priority here. Ask past manager 1 (the tension shouldn’t matter and if it does for some reason he can just say no), co-worker at current job, manager at current job; there are other configurations that would also be fine, just make sure you’ve got managers in the mix.

  198. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

    Huh. Where is the Hellmouth lady??? I hope you are ok.

    1. Drew*

      She said up-page that she’s swamped and will update us later today. Sounds like she’s just busy, not fighting off demons this week.

  199. Tomato Frog*

    I’m developing a proposal for a new position in my department, one that would report to me. I am very excited and also very making this up as I go. Does anyone have resources to recommend that talk about creating and pitching new positions, or advice from their own experiences? It’s at an academic library, if anyone can speak specifically to that.

    1. Kathenus*

      Might be too late for you to see, but here are some suggestions from past experience for me, very different industry though. A coworker and I once proposed a reorganization in our management structure when one person left of a four person team, to consider a new structure before hiring the replacement. We basically did a new organization chart with the positions, reporting structure, and staff breakdown of direct reports for each of the new positions – it was accepted and we got to do it. At another facility we did some pretty specific breakdowns of what different roles/positions did during the day to justify how much staffing we needed to achieve the goals they had given us for certain programs that we were supposed to present. So we showed what could be done on a two person, three person, and four person day to set realistic expectations. So on a spreadsheet we put Person 1, 2, etc. and then showed the general duties they did each day and the approximate time of day that they occurred (we were in a visitor-related field). So it’s a bit different than your decision, but if you could show what the new positions duties were, approximate breakdown of their work each day in a percentage, and what that frees you or your department up to add to expand in doing to show the benefit of the new position it might help.

      1. Tomato Frog*

        Probably too late for you to see this, but this is a very good idea, and very helpful. Thank you!

  200. Alice*

    I’m on a call and I started noticing how often a particular colleague says “as I said before.” I am keeping a running total. Where is it coming from? Does she think we aren’t listening? I’m certainly listening now… and crosshatching my notepaper with the marks to count it. I wonder if I have tics like this.

    1. CheeryO*

      Maybe she’s a bit insecure and isn’t sure if people understood her the first time. I find myself saying stuff like that when I’m not 100 percent comfortable with the subject matter or the people I’m meeting with. Some of us just don’t have the gift of words, unfortunately!

    3. Argh!*

      I’ve noticed that it’s a subconscious thing that just can’t be fought! I used to always wonder why person-on-the-street interviewees always said that, when they repeated something they’d said off-camera. Then one day I was interviewed when the apartment building next to mine caught fire and I had to evacuate. I told the interviewer what it was like, then she said “say that to the camera” and the camera got turned on. And I said “Like I said before…” even though it was a pet peeve of mine!

      This is something I have always forgiven ever since that day.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Ugh! It’s likely a bad quirk.
      My boss constantly asks you to talk on calls, but then interrupts you. At first I thought it was because I’m the only female, but he does it to everyone.

    5. Sloan kittering*

      Yep, my coworker has a similar verbal tic, “as I said.” This is just what he uses to mark his place on his mental outline, and is relatively meaningless. He’s using it where I might say, “ah” or “um.” I find it a little irritating but nobody’s perfect, I suggest trying to shrug it off.

  201. Ra94*

    Last week I posted about my toxic current job and asked for suggestions on what types of short-term, flexible jobs I can look for before I leave for my ‘proper career’ job. I’ve got enough savings that I’m looking for something to fill the time and inspire me rather than pay the bills, per se.
    This week, I had a thought: what about working for a presidential campaign? Would they hire someone like me for a 3-4 month stretch? Pros: I’m a law school graduate with great references and experience in journalism, and I’m very politically engaged and have spent time canvassing voters. Cons: That was law school abroad, plus I’m only looking for a short stint, with no chance I’ll actually be there for the long haul.
    While I keep up rigorously with politics, I don’t know much about the actual working world of campaigns, so I have no idea how to ‘break in’, as it were, and whether I stand a chance.

    1. Argh!*

      I think that sounds like a cool option! If your candidate turns out to outlast other candidates, there will be a huge pool of applicants for your job if you leave – the employees of the candidates they’ve been beating!

    2. Amber Rose*

      Try for it. Husband worked for a provincial politician for a little while when we were in university, and just the other day they were trying to get him to actually run for a position. It was just data entry, but there’s a LOT of data entry to be done for a campaign.

      1. Ra94*

        I would be absolutely fine with just data entry- it would be just a cool excuse to get involved, feel the campaign buzz, and hopefully get to say ‘I worked for President X’ one day. I’ll look into the process and update y’all next week!

    3. Delta Delta*

      Why not? it might be something you’re really good at doing, and if you don’t give it a try, you don’t know. And it would be a really good way to fill some time when you’re not working in a traditional law firm setting (or government or whatever) while you figure out where you want to go next. Also, you never know what kind of connections you’ll make working on a campaign – might be a door that opens to whole new things.

  202. Decima Dewey*

    Once more, with feeling:

    Yesterday a branch in our library system was closed for a couple of hours during the time it was supposed to be open, for “police activity’. Today there’s an announcement that a patron at that branch got a systemwide explusion for throwing two public computers to the ground. That and his previous antics (tearing down a Standards of Acceptable Behavior poster and proclaiming himself “God in the flesh”) got him kicked out of all library branches for the next 5 years. Makes the incident report I had to write when a patron punched another patron in the back of the head for not giving him a cigarette seem tame.

    At my branch, we’re trying to get Perpetually Late Guy to improve his attendance. Every day, around the time we are supposed to open to the public, Perpetually Late Guy calls to say he’ll be late. If we open at 10 am, he says he’ll be in by 10:30. Then a little after 10:30, he calls back to readjust his time, says he’ll be in by, say 11am. We also have to document what time he actually arrives (in this case something like 11:15), and how it corresponds to the time he puts on his timesheet. He has trouble figuring how much time to subtract from his scheduled working hours. You’ll be shocked to hear that his mistakes are generally in his favor. My boss wants to believe that Perpetually Late Guy will improve, but all the evidence suggests the problem is getting worse. He used to be late by less than 15 minutes each day, now every day is like I just outlined. His attitude is also getting worse: he’s acting as if he’d been 5 minutes late once in three years, and when I’ve had to tell him he needs to report to me or to boss when he comes in, I’ve heard him say “Lord Have Mercy.” Grandboss is on board with boss’s efforts to get him to improve, but Perpetually Late Guy has gotten away with this for decades. It may end in Perpetually Late Guy losing his job, but it’ll take awhile to get there.

    1. Lilith*

      I don’t know how you library folks out up with the likes of some patrons. Gah! People who destroy computers? Or harm other patrons? Not enough money for me.

    3. CrossingJordan*

      It doesn’t count like being on time isn’t a requisite for his job. If it were, he would be put on probation, and if he showed up late during that time, he would be dismissed. That hasn’t happened , which means it is not an issue for management.

  203. Amber T*

    There’s an askReddit thread going about advice from older generations that don’t apply anymore. There are a bunch that have to do with hand delivering your resume/asking to speak to the manager/constantly following up. Most people agree this is pretty bad advice, but there are an alarming amount of people who think this still applies to today. One commenter even says that if their resume gets discarded after he hand delivers it, then clearly the company is just a lost customer to Me, Inc., which they are the CEO of and isn’t worth their time. I mean, overall, I get the stance that during an interview, you’re figuring out if you want to work there too. But man what a load of gumption.

    2. LaDeeDa*

      I don’t know any company from retail to restaurant to call center that accepts in-person resumes. Unless it is a tiny independently owned restaurant or retail spot – everyone else has a recruiting system that requires online applications.

  204. Relo or No*

    I’m interviewing for an internal job that would require somewhat frequent travel and is located in a different city than I am in. I’m undecided on moving. I’m looking for a script to ask about staying in my current city and just going into the office when needed (I would inquire if I’m made an offer).

  205. Nonprofiteer*

    Just here to say I’m so disappointed after a phone screen yesterday. It was an organization I’d LOVE to work for, a supervisor I’ve known for years who is also a leader in the field, and in a city I hope to move to soon. But their salary range (basically written in granite, per the HR person) is HALF of what I make now in a similar role.

    So now I’m feeling stuck in a semi-soul sucking part of the nonprofit sector. Come on, arts orgs!

  206. HigherEd Anonymous*

    Just a vent:

    I wish my colleague who insists on tellling me that none of the work I do will ever be as important as HER volunteer work with Big Brothers/Big Sisters would STFU. I am never going to join Big Brothers/Big Sisters, I’ve never maligned her volunteer work or compared her work to mine. I just want her to stop telling me in a smug voice that she’s “doing things to shape the future” and I’m not.

  207. Anon for this*

    Can anyone with experience in the field tell me what kind of jobs I can get with master in public health? Is academia the only option or can I work in hospital administration or quality control?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      In my hospital system, at least, our administrators are more likely to have higher ed degrees in either business or healthcare administration. I have a BS in public health and an MBA/MPA and work in finance administration (as management) for the largest hospital system in my state, but am also working on a BS in HIM because it’s required to sit the exam for the certification credential that most of my upper management has.

      I think your question might be better phrased, not as “What jobs can I get with an MPH,” but “What higher ed degrees (if any) do I need to get the kinds of jobs that I want?”

      1. Anon for this*

        If you don’t mind me asking, what do you do with bachelors in public health in a hospital? And the other areas where you could work.

    2. sometimeswhy*

      I know someone working in a hospital’s cancer center in a non-medical role with an MPH.

      Also have a gander at local government health, safety, and environmental organizations may have positions suitable. Planners and data analyzers and policy folks and whatnot.

      1. De Minimis*

        I know at my wife’s former workplace [agency operating with a mix of state health dept., CDC, and medical teaching university employees] an MPH was more or less required to get beyond a certain point. Most of the positions were program coordinators/analysts.

    3. Anon for this*

      I meant to ask does anyone know what roles outside of academia are there for mph grads?

      1. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

        Most people I know with an MPH work outside academia, and I know quite a few because my undergrad is in a related field. They work in hospitals, at NGOs (like March of Dimes, American Cancer Society, etc.), in public health services (like state and local health departments) or as consultants. Most MPH programs will have an emphasis, like epidemiology, maternal-child health, global health or environmental health. (Probably more, but those are the ones I personally know people who have done them.)
        You can do a LOT with an MPH outside academia!

      2. Overeducated*

        I know MPH grads working at federal agrncies like the VA and Health and Human Services. They do research administration and project management rather than clinical work.

      1. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

        Depends on what you want to do. The options are so wide there’s no way to even begin to list job titles. If you already have the MPH, look for jobs you want to do and show how it applies. If you don’t have it yet, figure out what you DO want to do, see what those requirements are, and decide what degree to go for from there. If you want to work in hospital administration, maybe health care management or something would be a better fit.

  208. Foreign Octopus*

    Is it weird that I don’t have career dreams?

    I work for myself as an ESL teacher online, a job that I love, and today I was helping a student prepare for an interview in English with a list of questions. One of those questions was “where do you see yourself in five years?” It’s a question I’ve been asked before and I gave a rubbish answer (on a deserted island with a book: I was young at the time of the interview) but I’ve been thinking about it since.

    I see myself living in a nice little cottage in rural Ireland with my dog, my cat, and good Internet connection so that I can keep working online. I’d like to have a small part-time job in a bookshop so I can get out and talk to people about books but all of this is mainly so I can have the time to write.

    I’m only 28 and I feel like maybe I should be aiming higher but I don’t feel any passion for working in any particular industry. The thought of returning to a 9-5 office environment fills me with dread and I don’t know. Should I be wanting more?

    1. Iris Eyes*

      It sounds like you do want more, you want to be a writer and I’m going to make the wild guess that you want to be a published author as well. That’s no small goal. So maybe in 5 years you dream of having a finished manuscript or of having a first printing in your hand or getting your first royalty check.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I would definitely love to be a published author. I’m just aware of how difficult it is. Maybe I just need to shift my perception of my own version of success instead of getting sucked into the general acceptance of it. Thanks.

    2. Not A Manager*

      Can you share a bit more about your work as an ESL teacher online? Are you tutoring people individually, are these online classrooms, how did you get into this line of work?

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        Of course I can!

        So I tutor people individual over Skype and it’s mainly conversation classes so that they can improve their spoken English as most of these people don’t really have access to native speakers on a frequent basis, particularly native speakers who’ll correct them. I also do exam prep classes (one-on-one) for things like FCE, CAE, and IELTS (the latter of which is the most internationally recognised exam for immigration purposes).

        I do it through a website called iTalki, which is basically a hosting website where students and teachers come together. They take a small cut of the profit but it works out very well for me as they also offer technical support if needed.

        I got into teaching English because I moved to Spain three years ago in order to break out of a horrible rut I’d found myself in and teaching English is just the job you do here if you speak English and no Spanish. My Spanish is now improved but I found that I really enjoyed teaching English and I spent a year at a local language academy where I discovered I absolutely hate teaching children (like kids, hate teaching them) and so I Googled “teaching English online” and iTalki came up. I’ve been on the platform two years now and it’s great for me because it’s so flexible and I work from home.

        I really wish I’d known about teaching English after university as it would have saved me a lot of truly awful jobs!

    3. Nacho*

      You sound fine to me. A lot of people view their job as a means to make money, and as long as it makes that money and isn’t overly stressful, there’s no real difference between one job and another. It sounds like you have a decent life lined out for yourself, and there’s no need to beat yourself up over the fact that how you make enough money to live that life isn’t super important to you.

      1. Foreign Octopus*

        I think I needed to hear this, thank you. The thought of living in London/Paris/New York just seems super stressful to me for a job that I know I wouldn’t enjoy. I’m very much: work is work and it ends here, which is why teaching is such a good fit for me.

  209. AnonyMouse*

    I’m wondering what people’s opinions are on mentioning plans to relocate either during an interview or in application materials? I am job searching because I am primarily trying to relocate (I’m also trying to escape an incredibly toxic office, but that’s a separate issue), and I have been up front about that in most of my job applications and interviews. I’m wondering if this is hurting my candidacy though, and causing employers to question if I’m only applying because I want to relocate. When I’m asked why I’m looking, I usually say something along the lines of “the primary reason I’m job searching right now is to relocate to X area, but the reason I’m interested in this position is because of Y and Z..” Should I avoid mentioning relocation at all? I’ve been asked pretty directly why I’m leaving my current position a few times, and this seemed like the safest reasoning to give.

    1. Buu*

      I think you should mention you’re relocating, just so they are aware for interview logistics but I don’t think you should lead with it. e.g
      ” I’m interested in applying to this job because of Y and Z. I am currently living in XXX but already have plans to move to area X.”

      You can specify if they ask in the interview that you wanted to relocate and that prompted the search, then you can quickly move onto you finding the vacancy and why you think you’d be great filling it.

      1. San Juan Worm*

        I’ve relocated for a job twice, and was always upfront in my cover letter about my intent to relocate, my willingness to incur travel expenses for interviews, and that I was willing to fund my own relocation. As a hiring manager, I have a healthy skepticism about the seriousness of out-of-state candidates. If they mention an intent to relocate in their cover letter or application, it helps me consider them more seriously. Also helpful is if they provide some context for their interest in the city or region to which they are interested in relocating. For example, if they’ve visited previously, or have family or friends who already live here, or speak appreciatively of the community’s cultural amenities.

  210. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from the Hellmouth! Sorry to anyone who thought that I had succumbed to armadillo leprosy or wildlife attacks, I promise I am very much alive. There was just a lot of Hellmouth business to take care of earlier today that delayed posting anything. It’s been a long week and I am really looking forward to hitting the end of the day and going home. But a big thank you to everyone who said something nice, expressed concern, or flat out made me laugh upthread where my earlier absence was noted!

    We filed for eviction on the resident who tried to attack me last week, and they opted to move out and surrender their keys rather than have the judge actually order them out. We also learned that they are an assistant property manager at a nearby property, which kind of blows my mind. It may actually be worse than the Hellmouth, guys—they apparently had a murder there last year and also their AM is, you know, a dreadful person who thinks it’s cool to run screaming into someone’s office and try to jump them. I’m still pressing charges against Ex-Resident, but it will probably be a while before anything happens there.

    On the job hunting front, I was rejected for three jobs that I thought I had a pretty good shot at (including the admin position that I was hopeful about last week), but at least it was all on the same day so the bummeration wasn’t spread out. I did get some feedback, which was primarily that the hiring manager couldn’t get past the fact that I’m looking for a new job when I’ve only been at my current job for 9-10 months. I was laid off from my last job just shy of a year, and the job before that was the job where I originally swore off property management and was also not a lengthy tenure… I’m aware that I have a lot to overcome since I look like I’ve turned into a real job hopper. So this weekend I’m overhauling my resume again and also tweaking the way I address that in cover letters. On the plus side, I am still in the mix for two jobs at Local Big University, have a lead on another admin position outside of that, and just found two new job postings that sound up my ally and that I should be really qualified for. Hope abides!

    The squirrel family that was living in the roof and walls of one of our buildings have been extracted! The pest control company sealed up two of the three exit holes they were using and attached a live trap to the other one. I’ve been pretty diligent about walking by and making sure the pest control company gets a call when they wind up in the trap—the maintenance supervisor was just planning to let them sit in the trap until they expired. But the last thing I need is the guilt of letting trapped creatures suffer. Or ghost squirrels.

    Now that the squirrels are gone the residents in the building are saying that rats have moved in. I feel like there is some sort of Circle of Life/Lion King joke to make here, but I haven’t been able to come up with it yet. We also now have two pelicans over by one of the ponds. Watching them eat is kind of mesmerizing.

    And now, the McGruff section of our novella: I had to pull her aside privately and address some of her behaviors this week—specifically the fact that (whenever my boss is not around) she has started openly rolling her eyes at me and being extremely adversarial whenever I give feedback, ask her to do anything, or… well, speak. I was EXTREMELY CAREFUL about what I said and how I said it (I cribbed heavily from AAM scripts, thank you Alison!), and used the most neutral tone possible. I also immediately filled my boss in on everything that happened leading up to the conversation and everything that was said during it. Imagine my surprise when I found out that McGruff immediately ran to The Good Leasing Consultant and told him that 1) I screamed and yelled at her, and 2) said a large number of crazy things that I did not and would not ever have said, and 3) that I was enraged with McGruff specifically because she didn’t help me when the resident tried to attack me last week. That last one is a real head scratcher, in particular—what would I have wanted her to do? I don’t doubt that a 50 year old woman could John Wick an assailant, but it certainly isn’t something that I would expect from this 50 year old woman and it certainly was not part of my discussion with her. So… ???

    The Good Leasing Consultant immediately went to my boss because he didn’t believe I would do or say anything she recounted and was really concerned about why McGruff would be saying that kind of stuff. And lo, my boss was displeased, as she loves The Good Leasing Consultant and McGruff is already on her Current Hate list. And then McGruff apparently told an even more outrageous version of her story to the maintenance supervisor (the one who originally recommended her for the job here), who marched into my boss’s office this morning to have me dealt with for my wicked ways. Fortunately my boss knew that the account presented was factually inaccurate, and had already heard from The Good Leasing Consultant about McGruff’s general behavior where I am concerned. If this had happened while my boss still had me squarely on her Current Hate list it probably would have gone badly for me, though.

    Anyway, the maintenance supervisor storming in with a crazy story about me then led to an impromptu and angry calling of a very long staff meeting of both office and maintenance employees, wherein my boss basically yelled at all of us but everything she said was really only intended for McGruff (and the maintenance supervisor in one or two instances). Drama, insubordination, gossiping about supervisors, and complaining about coworkers through improper channels were all top topics. Not acting like middle schoolers also came up extensively. And shortly after the meeting I was instructed to make sure that McGruff has no appointments scheduled for 5:30 today, because my boss will be calling her into her office (which McGruff is not to be warned about in advance). I don’t know if she’s getting verbally counseled, getting written up, or worse (although worse seems unlikely), but I don’t think McGruff is going to be very happy by the end of it. The Good Leasing Consultant thinks she may just quit, but I don’t think that’s likely.

    I don’t really think anything with McGruff has been handled correctly by my boss (and we definitely should NOT know about whatever is going down at 5:30), but it’s kind of hard to feel a lot of sympathy when she doesn’t do her job, lies all of the time, and is actively horrible to me. I have to admit that I am morbidly curious about what the fallout from all of this will be. And that’s the Hellmouth happenings for this week.

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      Oh! Also, the story McGruff told last week about her dad and her attorney stuff does indeed appear to have probably been made up. But she has already moved on to a new story—she is now telling everyone that Bank of America emailed her to say that she was liable for all of the money taken out of her account during the fraud thing that she told us about her first week working here. She says that this is because the woman stole and used a physical card, and that the bank will not cover the theft. I… don’t think that’s how that works? But I am no banker. Is that how that works?

      1. BofA sucks*

        BofA is particularly awful for this kind of thing. About 20 years ago, my husband had his card stolen and I know they were really difficult. They didn’t make him pay the whole thing, but he ended up on the hook for some of the fees. We don’t deal with BofA anymore.

        With all of that said, I have no idea of their current policies and from everything that you’ve said about her, I would be skeptical too.

      2. Rhymes with Mitochondria*

        Some banks have a reporting requirement. If you report it stolen within (24 hours, 48 hours, etc) of the first fraudulent charge you’re off the hook. If it is lost/stolen and used for weeks/months and you never reported it, you may be on the hook. It’s been a decade or so but my sister ran up against that when she had a little used card she kept in her car console in case of emergencies (stupid!) stolen and she never knew until the bill came weeks later and it was maxed out. She hadn’t reported it stolen soon enough.

    2. Iris Eyes*

      Thank you for your update. I continue to anticipate your exodus.

      I hope that for your sake McGruff continues to occupy the hot seat thus keeping you out of it (also congratulations for surviving it as long as you did, sounds like that’s quite the accomplishment)

      And no, you DEFINITELY don’t need ghost squirrels.

      1. Move Over Thrawn - Florian Munteanu is BIGGER than you!*

        Oh no, absolutely no ghost squirrels. Glad you pulled through another week!

      2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I hate wishing the hot seat upon anyone, but if someone HAS to be there…

    3. Pebbles*

      Huh. I may have missed previous clues, but I was picturing McGruff as a younger employee, in part I think because of how envious she was of your jacket.

      Anyway, glad to know you’re alright Hellmouth and that you haven’t succumbed to the dreaded armadillo! “Good night and good luck!” (It keeps sounding like you’ll need it!)

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Heh, my hairstylist thought she was very, very young based on the stories and freaked out when he heard the “McGruff told my boss that she’s a decade younger than she actually is and made a really big deal about it and now my boss feels both enraged and betrayed” story.

        1. Turtlewings*

          How did she end up with the code name McGruff? I missed that part. (Despite myself, I end up picturing the Crime Dog when you mention her.)

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            About five minutes into her first day at work (almost two months back) she gave a very detailed and dramatic accounting of having thousands of dollars stolen out of her account the previous day. Then on her second day of work the first thing she said to everyone was “Well call me McGruff the Crime Dog, because I caught the b*tch!” and proceeded to tell us all how she used her keen detective skills to track down the person, their husband, their Facebooks, where they both worked, their home address, how she was going to drive by their place that night, etc. After that, I could only think of her as McGruff.

    4. Drew*

      I really want to advise you to sit in your car and wait for McGruff to leave after the 5:30 meeting so we can get a report on whether she has to be hauled out in cuffs, but I think the safest course is for you to be far, far away when the fit hits the shan.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        McGruff managed to be out on a tour when 5:30 came, so allegedly whatever is happening has been moved until 5:15 Monday. I still might try to be gone before it finishes.

    5. Karen from Finance*

      I’m now concerned that the Good Leasing Consultant will inevitably, eventually, end up on the Current Hate list. :/

      I’m glad to see you, Hellmouth.

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I think he’ll be okay—she typically doesn’t go after dudes. Also, he is applying to everything he can, too! I hope he gets out soon, but also selfishly hope we both give notice at about the same time.

    7. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      You realize, of course, that I actively search the page for you on Fridays?
      Hang in there.

    8. Weegie*

      So sorry you didn’t get any of the jobs! But I’m sure it’s because the absolutely 100% right job is still waiting out there for you.

      Also, it’s terrible that your less-than-lengthy job tenures are being held against you: where I live, that’s known as ‘normal’, not job-hopping! I don’t know if this is a tack you can take when refreshing your cover letter, but when was moving on from working on a country where very short-term contracts were absolutely the norm, I framed it as ‘having the opportunity to work in an environment where short-term contracts are encouraged has allowed me to acquire a diverse set of skills over an accelerated period of time’ – or words to that effect. It worked!

      Sending you many good wishes, and thanks for the continued updates. :-)

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        Thanks! I’m definitely examining different wordings… I will crack this nut!

    9. WillowWeep*

      I have not previously heard “John Wick” used as a verb. Thanks for that. Keanu forever!

  211. Trixie*

    I found out this week my boss is retiring at the end of summer, right about when I’ll be at my first anniversary in this new role. Happy for them but I was hoping to enjoy this delightful position longer. The upside this news makes it easier for me to leave for Big City which I had planned to do anyway. Now I just have a more definite timeline.

  212. Karen from Finance*

    I am now concerned that the Good Leasing Consultant will inevitably end up in the Current Hate list as well.

    I’m glad to see you, Hellmouth.

  213. Jules the First*

    Quick PSA here:
    It is generally a bad idea to tell a potential client that you think they are small-minded, inflexible, and unreasonable. It is a worse idea to tell them that in a letter accompanying three months of unpaid work in which you also ask them to make an exception to their clearly stated (small-minded, inflexible, and unreasonable) policy in order to hire your company at great expense for ten years worth of work.

    I really did think this kind of thing went without saying, but judging by the letter than landed on my desk this morning, it needs saying… #themoreyouknow

  214. Anon for now*

    Spouse was employed part time for a small business. Business was bought out by large company and spouse is negotiating new contact. HR said it is illegal to give spouse PTO if all other part time employees don’t get PTO. Is this true? If not, links would be appreciated. Spouse is now hourly but before used to receive a daily rate (same pay on a short day as on a long day).

    1. WellRed*

      If you’re in the US the company can give or not give timeoff according to whatever rules it has in place and it doesnt need to be the exact same for everyone ( though they may actually have their own rules to that effect). Not a lawyer.

      1. valentine*

        Next time, he should perk up, say he never knew, would love to read it, and do they have a copy or what is the statute or the name of the act.

  215. Driving the wrong way*

    ARGHRHHAGH!!! My husband went through 6 phone interviews and an in-person interview, that required an 8 hour round-trip drive with an overnight stay. The interview was with the Director of the team.

    So after the director, who said that they were going to notify the two candidates last Friday but went on vacation for a week instead, just sent my husband an email to say my husband will not be selected for the position. An email!?!? After all that he it should have been a phone call. So disappointing.

    My husband was referred to this position by a professional contact, and knew a few people on the team, one of which he worked with at a previous company. Those people were awesome. The only connection my husband had to this director was a military friend who had worked with the director.

    The director chose the candidate who had worked for him, for 8 years, in another company. According to my husband they had the exact same qualifications, certifications, work experience except the military background, which wasn’t a requirement for the job.

    So now we’re stuck in this city that we don’t want to be in. We came here, for a job, because the previous company we were with (in the city we’re trying to return to through this job) laid off my husband.

    So I guess we can start hanging pictures (we’ve been here 18 months, but it took us a while to pick a paint color for the whole home interior), redo the landscape, stain the fence, stash money away, and keep looking for a next opportunity.

    “We’re gonna press on, and we’re gonna have the hap, hap, happiest life since Bing Crosby tap-danced with Danny Kaye! And when Santa squeezes down that chimney, he’s gonna find the jolliest bunch this side of the nuthouse!”

    1. valentine*

      A phone call is like a big college envelope. Email lets you be upset in private and doesn’t put you on the spot.

      1. Driving the wrong way*

        No an email is a cop out; it says I’m protecting myself not you. Even the directors team members were upset that his response was delayed and done via email. It’s ok we’re moving on.

  216. Good God anon for this*

    Help!
    My grand boss told me that I’m a recognized national leader in llama veterinary services. He said that I need to train other staff and asked how I would do that. I summarized that I’d want to work with selected staff to proactively train them in best practices, legal requirements, and accepted standards, etc. I was immediately told no. My role would be to answer questions only. I cannot be proactive, provide professional materials, guidance, etc. I argued that this would not be sufficient, and was accused of not believing my coworkers were competent. I requested clarification of my role in writing, and got it. Now I’m being required to travel to different offices every week to “train” others, when all im allow to do is sit thete and work, and be there physically if someone has a question. My boss claims the travel id not punative since it’s only an hour or two more than my former 10 hour commute each week. But I’m not training anyone, only answering specific questions these unskilled workers may have about llama veterinary care. For comparison, they have a little bit of skill at llama groomers. I really care a lot about my job tasks and put in hundreds of hours on my own time for my expertise (which boss knows).

    And now I’m being told to agree with this in writing. I’m feeling like I’m being set up to be a scapegoat for failure or to pressure me into voluntarily leaving.

    Any thoughts, suggestions?

    1. Marthooh*

      Ugh. If your specialty involves “best practices, legal requirements, and accepted standards” and you’re a recognized leader in the field, it sounds like grandboss is trading on your expertise to, I don’t know, skimp on training and oversight? It’s bizarre that he wants to train his staff by not training them.

      This is a question best answered elsewhere — a professional organization, accreditation agency, lawyer, or something like that. CYA.

    3. Good God anon for this*

      Yeah, I just have a bad feeling about this. While my job does not require any legal BMPS or accredidation, a failure in this job can have significant long term financial impacts to the corporation.

      I had a private meeting with my boss recently and disagreed with him on this “training” regime – the first time I’d completely disagreed with him in over a decade. In the same meeting he then changed my work locations. I previously worked at offices that resulted in a weekly commute of 6 hours a week. He changed my location requirements so I now have a doubled hourly commute.

      His stated reason was “so I can train people”, but I’m obviously not allowed to train people.

      I can’t figure out what is going on.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        I’d leave a major email trail on this, and start looking for a new job ASAP. You might also go to Grandboss over this.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      They’re doing the opposite of trying to retain you. Training =/= only answering questions that people happen to come up with. That they’re putting you in this role does not bode well – either they don’t know what they’re doing, or they do and it’s bad for you.

      This sucks and I hope it’s feasible but my only suggestion is leveraging your expertise into a much better position somewhere else. In the meantime see if you can avoid agreeing to anything sketchy in writing – get them to explain why it has to be in writing. If your company is big enough to have an ombudsman or ethics line, look into that as well.

    5. Good God anon for this*

      My great grand boss has scheduled a “private and confidential” meet with each person in our team – a couple dozen of us. Most have had their meeting, mine is coming up in a couple weeks.

      I know the great grand boss personally. We met years ago as colleagues, and we have limited our talks to personal stuff -rarely would either of us discuss any specific personnel -we kept excellent boundaries.

      So, do I discuss this with her (I’m a her, too, while boss, grand boss are hims, if it makes a difference). Suggestions on what to say?

      And yes, I am definitely documenting everything, either as emails to myself, or brief professional responses to boss and grandboss.

  217. Stephanie*

    I would appreciate thoughts/ideas on an appropriate job title for my current role.

    Backstory: I was internally hired into my current position in a higher education institution (Business Analyst – Enrollment Services) in May 2018 but I didn’t actually start the role until July 2018. The position was created by the previous person in the role, and as such the job description was written to her strengths and preferences. She left the role in March 2018, and our shared boss (VP) left in May. I did the job as best as I could without a boss until my current boss (new VP) started in October. So, the job has morphed as duties were adjusted in the VP’s absence.

    Here is an overview of what I see as my main duties and I would appreciate everyone’s thoughts on an appropriate title:

    Data: I pull and review data on our students to find trends and to help make decisions regarding enrollment and communication

    Technology: I train members of my department on using our Student Information System and Document Imaging System. I also look for ways to “work smarter not harder” using these systems.

    Communication: I am the administrator of our student text messaging system and also oversee/organize the communication calendar that we follow when communication with our current and prospective students

    I am not a supervisor (although my current boss has discussed reassignment of some of the employees of our department with the possibility of me supervising our front line employees).

  218. Grace Less*

    Alison’s favorite — a bathroom complaint! Long story short, make sure all contents of the bowl are gone before exiting the stall. Please. Our wing is about to lose bathroom privileges.

    1. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      I would think bathroom privileges are really one of those things that employers can’t legally take away from their employees no matter the reason. While I do agree that people should be considerate, if there is a bit of flotsam in the bowl, no one’s going to stick their hand in there so just flush it down. Now if the mess is on the seat/floor/walls/door handle…that’s a complaint worthy of closing the bathroom for a thorough cleaning.

  219. Stupid Sansa*

    I’m a high school teacher and the past week I’ve been dealing with a horrible student crisis. A student’s mom died and he didn’t tell anyone, but has been failing everything the past couple months. He finally came to me last week and broke down sobbing and told me everything. I reached out to all his other teachers and the counselor, and made up some plans for him to get back on track with his work. He’s a great kid with a really high GPA and good college prospects, and really is just a victim of a horrible situation.

    All the teachers I reached out to got back to us and were very sympathetic. Except for one (Cersei?). She is very difficult for students to work with and has the attitude that students are always trying to cheat or get exceptions. In reality she’s a great person and gets along with all the other teachers, which is why I helped advocate for the student. Long story short, the counselor and I finally got her to agree to an extension on late work, but only after the principal and school board signed off saying they’ll legally protect her from any actions by other students or parents.

    This whole process was exhausting and I really shouldn’t even have been involved in this except that the student came to me. After this all settled I was talking with the counselor, who couldn’t believe how difficult the other teacher was being. I gave the counselor some backstory. This teacher has had tons of complaints from parents and students, and has actually been sued before. She’s especially terrified of being sued again. I heard some of this from the teacher directly while she was venting. I also heard this from students, administrators and other teachers. This counselor is very new so I wanted to give context for the behavior.

    The counselor was really disturbed by this, and being a good person she went to Cersei and told her how upsetting it was to hear what she’s been through and that the school supports her. Well, Cersei completely freaked out. She was enraged and said I was lying about everything and spreading gossip. She marched straight to my room and started screaming at me. She denied any complaints from students and legal issues. I tried to talk about the things I heard and explain how I knew everything, but she was so enraged and was so taken aback I just ended up apologizing profusely.

    I feel terrible about everything and so does the counselor. I actually called in sick the next day because I barely slept all night. I consider Cersei a great colleague and respect her completely. I’ve never said anything bad about her and was under the impression that everything I’d heard was true. I’m not sure how to proceed from here and I’m terrified she’s going to file a complaint against me (which she threatened). I’m new to the school and have a precarious relationship with the administrators, and I hate the idea of having to explain to them how I know all this information and why I was telling the counselor.

    I’ve been really upset about this all week and I hope I can get some outside perspective here. Please let me know what you think I should do.

    1. Ey-not-Cy*

      Counselor was out of line here. She should not have gone to Cersei. You probably shouldn’t have said anything either, but I understand why you did. Sorry you are dealing with this. The student’s needs come first here. Dead mom? Question–how big is your school that no one knew? I live in a small town and something like that couldn’t really be kept a secret in my town. You have apologized. Keep looking out for the students and teaching your subject to the best of your ability. I’m glad the student trusted you enough that she felt safe telling you! It is so important that they have someone they can trust.

      1. Stupid Sansa*

        Our school is about 1200 students (around 350-400 per grade level), with ~60 teachers. I was shocked to find out too, but this student is so quiet and reserved about everything. It’s also a complicated situation so I think he’s been hiding it from other students as well. What was more surprising was that he came to me, because honestly I don’t really have much of a relationship with him.

    2. Spool of Lies*

      Ugh. Not much advice but I’m sorry you’re going through this. You were doing your best with the knowledge and resources available to you in order to help a student in need. This person marched to your room and started screaming at you. If your administrators and colleagues have any sense, they will see that this incident reflects poorly on Cersei, not you.

    3. Temperance*

      I mean …. I wouldn’t call someone who has been sued at least once and had many complaints from parents and students to be a “great colleague”. The fact that she is so unhinged that she’ll scream at coworkers is maybe a sign that teaching isn’t for her.

    4. Hola!*

      There was a Cersei in my high school. She taught 12th grade writing, a mandatory English course for students who opted to not take AP.

      Every year, our Cersei would get into some petty pissing contest with a few of the A students, threatening to fail them so they would not graduate, over something minor, like a missing “inital brainstorm page” from a finished 20 page paper, or because they used 4 periodicals as references instead of 5 when sourcing their 20 page paper.

      And every year, Cersei would end up in a class shouting match with the student (s) targeted, and then their parents would storm the school threatening to file complaints with the superintendent and the school board and their lawyer, and the guidance counselor would have to broker a deal to give the kid a low pass just to get the chaos to stop.

      Either you work at my old high school or there’s multiple Cerseis all over the world. Eek.

    5. Wishing You Well*

      No advice, just observations: screaming or yelling is abuse and I wouldn’t trust that new counselor with even the weather report after this. I wouldn’t believe Cersei’s version of anything, either. Wow.

    6. AB1111*

      I agree that the counselor should not have gone to Cersei. I think you’ll be fine. Maybe talk with an administrator that you trust to give them a heads-up?

      And I also am raising my hand to offer dissent on the opinion that Cersei is a “great person”. I’m speaking from my current situation where I’m in my 30s, going back to university to pursue a 2nd degree/career.

      I had a professor EXACTLY like Cersei. This professor’s general approach with us (his students) was adverserial. We would gently point out that some of the exam answers were wrong and provide textbook pages. Nope, he was right, we were wrong. If he did acknowledge an exam error, you had to personally meet with him, argue your case to get the point back. Every other professor will go back to every exam for each student and make corrections if it turns out he/she made an error. Him? Nope, you had to go his office hours. Not sure why he forced that rule but he did. And to top it off, because there were so many of us who eventually came to his office hours, he’d typically cap the number of students he’d see so you’d have to find a time that worked for him and your schedule.

      He spoke down to the female students and it was very obvious he preferred the male students. If you had a question in class that was relevant to his lecture, he’d get this exasperated look and rush an answer. Students stopped asking questions because basically he wouldn’t answer it properly. Finally, he said something along the lines of “I don’t have time to answer your questions” and then would continue lecturing. He’s had several complaints and poor student evaluations but if you talk to the other professors and the department, they LOVE him. Absolutely think he’s the best and that he’s fabulous.

      A teacher should not approach her job as if she needs to conquer, dominate or be victorious over her students. Students are not the enemy. Someone who has an obvious negative bias against the very group she is supposed to nurture and guide, should not be in a teacher.

      So Cersei is nice to colleagues but is horrible to those who are not in any position of power. What’s the phrase? You can judge a society by how it treats its most vulnerable groups. Well let’s see…who are the most vulnerable to Cersai? I would say its her students. How does she treat them? She is awful to them.

      She is showing a shocking lack of compassion for a child who’s lost his mother and was trying to keep it quiet so he wouldn’t get preferential treatment. Cersei still seems to think this child is trying to game the system. Frankly, your Cersei sounds like a bully.

      I hope that the community (not just the school) recognizes he’s in an extremely fragile state and that they rally around him. I hope that Cersei realizes she needs to be in a different profession so she’s happy and not destroying the self-esteem of countless children. Teachers CAN affect children, the way they view learning and education, as well as how they view themselves. What she is doing is wrong, especially to this child.

      I’m sorry if I sound harsh but after my last term, I can NOT stand teachers who clearly have an axe to grind against students yet stay in the teaching profession. It makes me wonder why they continue because the cynic in me feels part of the reason they do it is because they enjoy having the upper hand in an unequal power dynamic.

    7. Weegie*

      They both sound like awful people who are not good at their jobs (what kind of counselor discloses information given by one person to another person? That’s what’s known as ‘gossip’). You’re being far too kind in ascribing decent motives to them.

      I’m a huge fan of ‘getting one’s retaliation in first’, so if you speak to someone in management about the situation before either of them does, you might be protecting yourself, and able to defuse the situation, instead of potentially being on the defensive if things go any further.

    8. Stupid Sansa*

      Thanks everyone. I slept well for the first time in a couple days and am feeling better about everything.

      It’s refreshing to hear others say that the counselor was totally out of line. That was my initial reaction as well, but I was too shell-shocked from the screaming to confront her about it afterwards. We have a really close working relationship and I see her as a friend, which probably clouded my judgment as to how much to tell her about Cersei. That said, she showed shockingly poor judgment here and created a crap situation out of nothing.

      I was unnerved at the counselor’s response to me afterwards as well. We only talked for ~5 minutes (it was already waaaaaaay past time to leave and we were both upset after everything). But her reaction after she apologized was lots of, “But it’s true right? Is what you said true? If it’s true why is she acting like that and calling you a liar?”. YES ALL OF THIS IS TRUE and that’s not the point here. This makes me think she’s going to dump everything on me once administration gets involved.

      I also agree with everyone’s response that Cersei is… not the best, all things considered. She gets along great with colleagues and is a fabulous teacher in terms of delivering content, but the adversarial relationship with students puts everyone in a bad situation. It seems like once a week that a student, or even parent, comes to me to complain or vent about her and I always have to cautiously remove myself from the situation and gloss over their concerns. Cersei has been here literally since before I was born, so I understand why she doesn’t change professions. But teaching is hard enough as it is without making everyone your enemy.

      I’ve decided that first thing Monday I’m going to email the counselor and have a serious talk with her about what happened. She needs to step up and take some of the blame for this. I’m also going to my admin and giving my account of the situation, in case this escalates further. I’m a little worried about the reaction but we’ll see.

      Finally, my school district provides free counseling services (well, at least the first appointment is free) to teachers and I scheduled an appointment for next week. I want to get a professional third party opinion. I also think I seriously need to reconsider teaching, all things considered. I’m good at my job, but I’ve been doing it almost a decade and this kind of continual stress and conflict is unsustainable. Teaching is such a thankless and tiring job sometimes and I don’t want to become the burnt out angry teacher.

      Thanks again for all the support. It’s been enlightening reading everything here.

      2. blackcat*

        So. Former high school teacher, current STEM academic with a heavy focus on teaching and learning. I also work with preservice and in service teachers.
        This:
        “She gets along great with colleagues and is a fabulous teacher in terms of delivering content, but the adversarial relationship with students puts everyone in a bad situation.”

        Means she’s a bad teacher, 100%. Good teaching is NOT “delivering content.” Good teaching is teaching students to learn, think critically, and assess information, understand connections between concepts/ideas, etc. This is independent of discipline. Lecturing, even excellent lecturing, is not an effective means of teaching, particularly for children. Students of a mediocre teacher using active learning approaches will do as well if not better on conceptual gains assessments than students of excellent lectures. Most of the data on this comes from college physics studies (of tens of thousands of student and hundreds of instructors. Like the p value on this is 0.00000001.), but it has been replicated across STEM disciplines. And I genuinely can’t imagine that it’s different in the other fields. If anything, active engagement seems more important in the humanities.

        I also firmly believe that one cannot be a good high school teacher while having poor relationships with the majority of one’s students. Some? Can’t be avoided. But, on the whole, it is very much part of the job to help teenagers navigate their transition to adulthood. It is part of the job to be a trusted adult in the lives of one’s students. You are that person for this student, which is good. If Cersei is not that person for a single student, she’s not doing her job well.

        I totally hear you on leaving teaching. I left high school teaching (though am thinking of returning). But maybe try a different school. My student teaching was at a FABULOUS school and it was all set by the culture of the superintendent and principal. Good administration, a union leadership (if applicable), and good colleagues make all the difference.

        1. valentine*

          The student’s guardian should’ve told the school about the bereavement. It’s not on the kid, at all. And look! They were right not to go to this counselor! Who is weirdly championing Cersei, though I don’t see from you either that lawsuits are a reason to distrust her rather than to go soothe her.

    9. Blue Eagle*

      I would tell the counselor that I do not appreciate them throwing me under the bus. He should not have mentioned your name when he spoke with Cersei (he shouldn’t have spoken with her anyway, but definitely shouldn’t have mentioned your name).

      Now you know not to tell this counselor anything else.

  220. Public Facing Libarian*

    Thank you AAM Alison and the commentators.
    It is here where sanity comes to rest.
    Cant give a detailed share but there has been a PR crises at my library and I personally have been the lightening rod for most of the anger. There has been mainstream media and social media attention.
    I was supported by my administration but still had difficulty with doing my job and ignoring the ruckus.
    I did avail myself of our employee assistance program.
    It was terrific to get a point of view that was impartial to the situation.
    AND here’s what I learned. I am doing a good nay exceptional job. I can find joy in my work again. The noise is just that noise. I can learn from the experience but it isn’t a roadblock.
    Take time to do “not work things” every day.
    Keep the lines of communications open so that I can clearly hear the positive response.
    Keep to the program
    Everyone isn’t going to like everything I do.
    Toughen up.
    AND I am taking the weekend off!

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      Good lessons. And… congratulations on making it through.
      Put this one in your life journal, and look back on this as one of your successes.

  221. Interview by Skype or in person?*

    Wise AAM readers, what would you do – attend an interview by Skype or attend in person (paying for your own travel)?

    Some pertinent details: this is the second interview and they have indicated it will be the final interview for the position. The position is in a city about 1000kms from my home. I have been there before a couple of times, but not in a few years and I don’t know it well. For the first interview, I traveled to a third city that was a midpoint between my home and the job city as the interviewers were doing interviews there too (they did the first round of interviews in 3 cities to try to meet as many applicants as possible in person). They still offered Skype as an option for the first interview, just as they are doing now for the second, but I thought it worthwhile to meet face to face then, to put my best foot forward.

    I still think it may be ideal to travel to interview face to face for the second interview, and it would also allow me to do some research about the job city, so I can figure out where I’d live, etc. It may also give me the chance to meet people I’d be working with (outside of the interview panel). I also am fortunate in that I have the leave available to take a few days of from my current job to go and could fly on points. The only reason I’m debating whether or not to go is that I probably only have the leave and points available to go once before relocating, so I’m tempted to do the interview by Skype and then if I get the job, do a separate research trip to suss out places to live.

    Also relevant – the job will pay relocation if I get it, and I have a good set up at home to Skype.

    So, my question – would you interview in person now and hope it gives both you and the interviewers the most information to make a decision about the job, accepting if you got the job, you may then not get to go to the job city again before relocating, or interview by Skype, knowing you could then travel later to research the job city before relocating? TIA for any advice!

    1. Penguin*

      Honestly, if they’re perfectly willing to do a Skype interview (assuming they cheerfully volunteered that option, rather than grudgingly acceding to a request) I would take them up on that. Explore the area in person /after/ you have an offer and are taking a couple days to mull it over. Traveling 2000 km is a significant cost in time and money, and (IMO) would be very over-the-top for a candidate to spend on their own. (A company flying a candidate in to interview would be different.) Good luck!!

    2. Abby*

      I think it depends on how sure you are that you would take the job. Are you 100% sure you want the job already? Or are you still feeling it out?

      I recently interviewed for a job where I had to fly there in order to interview. They required that I do so for the second interview, so I didn’t have a choice if I wanted to proceed with the process, but I had to pay my own way. I’m so glad I went because when I got there, I hated it. I loved the city (I had been there before) but the actual workplace was awful, and the people who would have been my colleagues seemed miserable. The company on the whole took the attitude that they didn’t have to do anything at all to impress me, that interviewing was a one way street. They were SHOCKED when I turned down their offer.

      I’m not sure I would have known that just with a Skype interview, which is how we did our first interview.

      So, unless you are 100% sure you would take the job regardless, I’d consider going.

    3. Kathenus*

      May be too late for you to see, but my field can involve moving to advance, so I’ve had a number of situations like this. I personally would never accept a job where I haven’t visited the facility and met the staff in person, and gotten a feel for the area to see if I think I’d like living there. Obviously depends on your financial situation, but for me I’d be uncomfortable committing to a job via remote interviews.

  222. Anonimouse*

    I have what everyone would consider to be a great job: established company, good pay, good benefits, my boss is considerate of my time and effort, tries their best to let me be work independently. The thing is, I don’t like the culture. They’re adverse to technology, people are stuck on the way they’ve been working since 20 years ago, plus there’s no clear path to go up for my role (I’ve been openly told that I would have to change departments to move up). Am I being naïve to think there could be something better out there for me? I have held several jobs before so I know I don’t have it bad, but I still can’t help but think of how unhappy I am. Do I change jobs or is it all on my attitude? Maybe I need to give it more time? It’s been over a year, and it has improved but the feeling hasn’t gone away.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Well, some of this stay or go decision also depends on your age. If you’re younger than 50, you can make a leap to greener pastures. If 50+ it honestly gets harder and harder to leap because you’re need the stability and benefits and are building your retirement.
      If you think you want to leave, try this ecercise: make a STAY and GO list and put your reasons in each column. Then under the GO side, list some things you could do at work to alleviate where you’re bored or frustrated.
      I can’t say it will make your decision, but it might help you see some perspectives. And you know, it’s fine for a job to just be a JOB. You can look for fulfilling projects and hobbies outside of work or by volunteering. Who knows, you may even start your own business on the side all while earning. Or, if you do decide you want a new job, you can take your time.

      1. Anonimouse*

        Thank you, MissDisplaced! I’m in my mid-30’s, so not quite early enough in my career to take big risks, but also not that far in where I have big responsibilities that come first. I’ll give the list a try! Thanks again.

    2. Tarra*

      Everyone else doesn’t have to do the job! You do! It’s ok to change jobs if you’re unhappy..

  223. Mother of Cats*

    Anyone have a favorite inexpensive travel accessory or gadget they would recommend? I’m looking for a small gift for a friend who’s taking a big trip next month.

    1. NoLongerYoungButLotsWiser*

      The go-tubes? (travel shampoo type squeeze bottles, so you can take your own hair stuff and not have to use the hotel stuff). I can’t use anything with SLS, so I carry my own shampoo. (YMMV). Shoe bags – I got a pretty set gifted to me, embroidered.

    2. Laura H.*

      Lipstick battery for the smart phone!

      But this question might be better suited for tomorrow’s free for all thread.

    4. Not A Manager*

      I travel with a simple plastic cone and paper filter for making coffee in the morning. I don’t like the stuff they provide in hotel rooms, and I don’t really like the stuff they brew at the buffet. There’s usually some way to heat water in your room (microwave or coffee maker in the US, electric kettle abroad), and I bring a small bag of ground coffee.

      Makes a HUGE difference to me to have decent coffee first thing in the morning, and not have to locate a chain coffee shop that will charge me five bucks for it.

    5. Mephyle*

      I second all the above suggestions.
      Silicon mat drain stopper. To securely plug the sink or shower for purposes of doing hand laundry. By doing hand laundry daily, you can get away with as little as three or four day’s worth of clothes for a trip of just about any length. Bar laundry soap is the best for packing, IMO, better than powdered or, of course, liquid laundry soap.
      Another piece of gear that has served me well when traveling to places where I will want to buy stuff is a luggage scale. I go outbound with a single carry-on suitcase and no checked luggage, and pack a duffel bag inside the suitcase. On the way home, the duffel is my carry-on, and the suitcase gets checked. That way I can allow myself a whole duffel bag’s worth of purchases (plus the extra suitcase space freed up by removing the folded duffel bag). The scale helps to balance stuff optimally between the checked and the carry-on bag and ensure that neither one will be above their respective limits.

  224. First day attire*

    Is it still recommended to wear a suit for one’s first day of work, or is that outdated advice? I’m starting a new job on Monday and the dress code varies between business casual and business depending on the person’s schedule for the day/who they’re meeting with.

    1. Abby*

      If a suit is something that people wear there, even if not every day, it may not be a bad idea. It really depends.

      Where I work, the “dress code” is more jeans and band T shirts so a suit would be really strange.

      I’d wear something on the nicer end of what you think other people are wearing.

    2. Hola!*

      Agreed with Abby- my first day at my last job in Fitness I wore yoga pants and a nice shell top (instead of a workout tee.) It looked neat but was functional for my specific job. If I’d worn a suit to the gym I would have looked like a dingdong.

  225. Abby*

    I’m late to the party here but maybe someone can weigh in.

    Over the course of my job, I sometimes stumble across others’ mistakes. I HATE telling people, none of whom report to me, (often they are senior to me), that they’ve made a mistake–especially if it is a big one.

    Today I found a really large (not earth-shattering, but large in scope) mistake, and I’m 95% sure it was made by one of my closest friends at work. She is really hard on herself when she makes mistakes, and I’m dreading telling her about it. I discovered it around 3:30pm and I didn’t want to drop it on her on a Friday afternoon (it’s not urgent) but come Monday I’m going to have to tell her.

    It’s extra complicated because I was in charge of figuring out the correct way to do this thing, and I have documentation of the instructions that I gave everyone, and my instructions were right. I literally have an email from her with “can you tell me the correct way to do this” and I replied with the correct answer, which she should have copied and pasted. For some reason she didn’t–she used some different data. I’ve confirmed that her data is wrong.

    If you made a mistake, how would you like to hear about it? I mean of course you don’t want to, but, is there a certain way you hate being told you did something wrong, or do you have examples of someone who does it well?

    1. Sloan kittering*

      Oh my goodness, it sounds like you are being overly conscientious here. I agree it’s kind to wait till Monday if it’s not urgent, but I would just send a direct email. “It looks like you used the warbler report here, but we really need the sparrow data. Can you go back through and resend? Thanks!” Your tone will convey that this is not a world ending mistake and you’re not mad, but the data is wrong and needs to be fixed.

    2. Blue Eagle*

      I would go with “in checking this report it looks like someone on your team made used the wrong __________” or “it looks like the wrong ___ was used in this report”.

      The main thing is to not accuse the colleague of making a mistake, rather mention that that you noticed an error without placing blame on anyone. At least for me, I would rather have someone point out the error to me, rather than accusing me of making a mistake. (Kind of like the difference between saying “you look good in that dress” and “that dress looks good on you”)

  226. Maggie Simpson*

    Might be too late for this to be seen….

    I’m fairly entry level and going on my first solo business trip in a few weeks (I’ve gone on quite a few but always with a more senior colleague/my boss/grand boss etc…). It’s actually near my hometown and my company booked my return flight on Sunday night vs Friday night upon my request so I could have the weekend to visit family.

    My question is — is it okay to expense my uber from the airport back to my home on the Sunday night? It feels ethically ambiguous to me because I’ll be coming from my parents not work — but if I was flying back on Friday night I would expense it no question. My boss is SUPER conservative with expenses compared to other departments, but its my grand boss that approves expenses. (And it’s a small business with no formal expense policy other than use common sense and yes I am very aware that this is an issue lol)

    1. I Go OnAnonAnonAnon*

      If you would have expensed it for a Friday night arrival from airport back to your home, I don’t see anything wrong with expensing it fora Sunday night arrival. But why not ask your boss how you should handle it?

    2. Drew*

      It’s an expense you wouldn’t have incurred if you hadn’t gone on the trip. It is not at all uncommon for people to shift arrival or departure dates by a day or two, especially over a weekend. I would not expect any reasonable boss to look twice at it.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Usually the initial fare to the airport AND the return fare from the airport are expensed, regardless of the day they happen on.

      But any “personal” fares, such as hotel-to-family would not be. As an example, when I was in NYC on business recently I wanted to visit a store and go shopping instead of heading directly back to the hotel. So my fare from the conference center to the store I paid for. However, I did expense the fare from the store back to my hotel (which I would have had to do anyway). But if that fare had been more expensive due to location, OR if I could have shared that fare to hotel w/coworkers, then I would’ve paid for it.

    4. Sam Foster*

      Yes. Any expense that you’ve incurred that you typically wouldn’t should be expensed.

  227. High*

    So getting high with coworkers? I’m in canada where it’s recreationally legal and some of us got high after work b4 the weekend instead of a 5 à 7. But now im regretting it. I didn’t get very high and was more appropriate than the others. Still im skeptical. For reference, im 22 and work in a call center with other twentysomethings

        1. valentine*

          Don’t do it again. Getting drunk is legal, but a terrible idea. I wouldn’t do with colleagues anything I wouldn’t want to do on a stage in front of the entire company or to explain from the witness stand.

          1. Morning Glory*

            Most people who do happy hour with their coworkers do not get drunk, they have one drink. And the question was about getting high, not drunk.

            OP I’d also recommend not getting high with coworkers, especially since you seem uncomfortable with it, now. It’s less socially well-established as a post-work tradition, and it can be harder to regulate/monitor how under the influence you are becoming relative to alcohol.

  228. FeelingHelpless*

    I found a great job heading up HR and Talent. Recently, my big boss was not happy with one of my initiatives of recruiting at a HBCU and from there, big boss tried to find every mistake. I came back from my travels and found out that big boss asked a consultant to let me know that they are hiring a VP of People. “That’s my job.”

    At first, I didn’t believe it, but started feeling a lot of anxiety, insecurity, because I looked long and hard for this Full-time role. I no longer feel appreciated and I am getting a feeling they want me out.
    Big boss have not told me. It was all passive-aggressive behavior of what he is not happy about. My responsibilities are slowing being taken away. Through the consultant, big boss mentioned that I was not bring strategic enough. Well, I responded, how can I when I am the only person in HR and Talent for a high growth company and I have been asking for tools, headcount and budget. But been told no, it’s not necessary or pushing our discussion out. It’s been 5 months.

    So, I need to keep working until I find something better. Any words of advice to survive in an environment like this until I can transition to a new role? I stopped wanting to give 100%.

    Thanks in advance!

    1. valentine*

      Talk to your manager/if you’re the only HR, talk to boss’ boss/if he’s the biggest boss, talk to a lawyer about him punishing you for recruiting Black people.

  229. Potential Boredom vs Excessive Stress vs Analytics folks?*

    I am at a cross-roads… 3 possible paths. May be too late to get feedback, but I appreciate the hive mind here.

    Do I switch roles, wait and give it time, or learn a new skill set?

    I have a great, interesting job, with lots of flexibility. But the reason I do well at it, is that I have a “partner” of sorts, who is the detail project person (let’s call her Magic), who makes sure that my creative ideas get executed. The technical and logistical details (tracking so the 50 different kinds of teapots planned will go through the kiln at the right time)… those are not my interests. Additionally, Magic jumps in and helps, and is learning about designing for the teapot user. But my ADHD brain would not do well to have to track all the details Magic does. However, Magic is a contractor, and her contract is up this year.

    I’ve had some of our existing internal project managers before, and they don’t think it is any part of their job to do anything other than take my specified tasks – and put them in MS project. No understanding of the technical dependencies, no thinking through ramifications, and a lot of “that’s not my job”(and I’m not talking one of them- I’m talking 5 years of them, and only 1 other good one).

    I don’t want to say I’m panic stricken, but I am anxious. I can retire in 8 years. But… without someone the caliber of Magic, to hold the process together, this train will go off the rails. I am going to be stressed beyond words. (I am, just thinking about it).

    Option one, is wait and see who they give me when Magic’s contract ends. (Maybe they will hire a decent person internally between now and then. This is a very long shot.) I have advocated for us to hire Magic full time – but Magic wants to move from managing the project to being in a role like mine. We have an open headcount for a similar level role, so she might get hired… soon. But not as my project manager. I think Magic is great, and I want to support Magic getting hired permanently.

    Option two. Magic may not have the perfect background, but… can definitely grow into my role… Magic could take my job, and I can move over to the other open role.

    I have discussed this with my trusted former grand-boss (now a great grand boss in another group). It would be easier for me to advise Magic on the pieces of “my” role that only I know, than for me to do my job without Magic. The other open role already has a solid team, who does NOT want to be promoted or move out of their roles.

    The only problem with this is that the other role is a bit boring. (Think, going from designing teapots and chocolate pots of great beauty, to churning out plain saucers for the next 8 years – with more government regulations).

    But… I would have a higher work life balance. And stability. And maybe a pay bump.

    Option three. Turns out, former great grand boss would like to have me on his new team. Knows me. New team has a lot of stability and works normal hours. Instead of regularly running marathons at work, I’d be sprinting periodic – quarterly? extra hours – we are salaried. So quality of life. But no pay bump… I’m on the high end for this role.

    Additional pluses…. I’d be trained in a new area of expertise. I could probably do consulting after I retire (in this new area). So I could bring in some income after retirement.

    The minus? One of my great passions in my current role, is that I am making life better for a huge population of teapot users. I am incredibly good at everything about my current job (except project planning). I am not excited about learning how to count teapot usage – and building reports for showing that to others. I am afraid that I will get bored, which for me, can be very bad.

    Although if anyone reading has analytics as their forte, and thinks that my talents in pattern recognition and critical thinking will make option 3 a good choice, I welcome the feedback! It may be that I do not understand analytics/ report dashboards well enough, and I might find them exciting.

    I am leaning to option two…But really need input.

  230. NapkinThief*

    Thank you, Reba! I’ve never had any special accommodations before – didn’t get diagnosed until just before my last year of undergrad – but historically I’ve been a really good test taker. I think the high pressure, quiet environment, time-sensitive nature of most big exams kicks my hyperfocus into gear.

  231. Compensation for Editing Friends' Work?*

    Hi, so I know I might be late to this, but just wanted to see what replies I might get here.

    I have a “friend” in my field who found me on LinkedIn a while back when I was a new professional to the field and struggling to break in; they acted as a mentor throughout my first year in the field. I have since found a solid position and am doing well, but the friend has stayed in touch with professional updates and phone calls every so often.

    Recently, this friend has asked me to edit some of their writing, which I was happy to do for free without even thinking (I’ve done similar things for other friends before). However, it’s turned into a thing where the friend is now sending me 1-3 documents every couple weeks, to my work email, asking me for feedback. I always forward them to myself at my personal email and reply from that one, to make it clear I consider this a personal favor and not a work obligation. It also is a busy time for me at work and I don’t always feel like I have the bandwidth to do this type of volunteer work on the side. Additionally, some of the documents they send, appear to be documents they are preparing for work (reports, blog posts, etc.). Everything is short, no more than a couple pages.

    Does anyone have advice for how I should handle this situation?

    1. Foreign Octopus*

      I recommend, the next time they send a document, saying something like:

      “I’ve been happy to help you do this in the past but work is now very busy and I don’t have the time to do this any more.”

      Then recommend Grammarly or something. The truth is, this person seems to be taking the mick a little and is using you as a free editing source. You’re well within your rights to stop that even if you weren’t busy.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I think you need to nip this. Decide how much you’re comfortable with (if any) and then say.

      “Unfortunately this is a busy time for me at work, and I no longer have the bandwidth to assist with reading these and providing feedback in a timely manner. Thanks for understanding.”

      You can set a time in the future when you might be available again, or maybe state that that while you’re still happy to read it, it will take you x-amount of time to respond due to being busier than normal.

      That is, assuming you don’t mind doing it occasionally. If you don’t want to continue doing it at all, I’d just stick with the first part.

    3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      In addition to the other suggestions, if you know a good freelance editor you might also recommend them and say something like “My work obligations don’t leave me sufficient time to give this the attention it deserves, but Sansa is great and she’ll do a fine job for you!”

    4. Mephyle*

      Your tactic of replying from personal email to show that it’s a personal favour is very subtle, and I can pretty much guarantee she hasn’t twigged. Anyway, even if she has, you haven’t told her that you aren’t able to do such personal favours on an ongoing basis. In fact, by continuing to do them, you are telling her by your actions that you are able and willing (albeit grudgingly) to do it.
      If you would be willing to do them when you’re less busy at work, would you feel better about it if you charged her? Then say so, but straight-out, without hinting. And when you’re too busy to do it, paid or free, tell her so, with your regrets.

    5. OP*

      Thank you, everyone, for the suggestions! I’ll try being more explicit about my time commitment and suggesting another avenue for copyediting.

  232. Who Plays Backgammon?*

    I’ve noticed in recent job postings that employers want a “sense of urgency.” What the hell does that mean? Or is this just the latest job-ad buzzword?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Sense of urgency = fast-paced office = (probably stressful, where you’re expected to do your work quickly and/or maybe have long hours in order to meet deadlines)

    2. Mephyle*

      In the most benign interpretation, it could mean someone who understands deadlines and takes them seriously (in contrast with someone who chronically misses deadlines, and doesn’t care).
      In not-so-healthy workplaces, it could mean that the work is fast-paced, perhaps with impossible deadlines and/or (as in the recent discussion Is being visibly stressed at work a sign of commitment?) no one believes you’re getting your tasks done unless you’re tearing out your hair, yelling at everyone, and running around like a crazy chicken.

    3. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      We’re disorganized and shortstaffed. Hair is constantly on fire. If you don’t like it, it’s your fault for being a bad candidate and not our fault for being a crappy employer.

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        You SO made me laugh out loud! These places sound like fast-food joints. This trait does not sound like one an employer would brag about. “In case of sartorial combustion, dunk head in provided bucket of liquid. Oh, look, flames just consumed employee–bucket contained gasoline. Don’t say anything; Boss is already screaming their car that won’t start after strong multitasker with sense of urgency filled the tank…”

    4. Ewesername*

      Sense of urgency at our place is “for the love of Dog, get off your cell phone and do the work as it comes in and not when you damn well feel like it”
      I work with 20 year olds …

      1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        I begin to suspect that look of rapt concentration is really a touch-screen induced coma…

  233. BackpackerTurnedProfessional*

    Is it rude to not respond to a head hunter?

    I was reached out of the blue by a woman looking to recruit me as a sales rep at an established financial firm. She found my resume on careerbuilder and emailed. The thing is, I hate sales. I’m not motivated by sales in the slightest. So, is it okay to just delete the email, or should I email her back saying I’m not interested but appreciate her reaching out?

    2. 653-CXK*

      I have several times. If a headhunter is offering something I wouldn’t be remotely interested in or it sounds like spam, it not only gets ignored, it gets blocked. One headhunter was so persistent I had to block them on my email, cellphone and home phone.

      For the nicer headhunters (“hey, your name came up and I want to discuss a position”), I would respond back “thanks, but I’m not interested” and leave it at that. Usually they sent a “thanks, good luck on your job search!” response.

      1. 653-CXK*

        CORRECTION: I have ignored headhunters several times, especially if they’re offering something I wouldn’t be remotely interested in or it sounds like spam; it not only gets ignored, it gets blocked.

        One other thing: If you do get a job, contact those headhunters you’ve been dealing with and let them know you’ve been hired. This way, you don’t get headhunters sending multiple emails several months after you’ve been hired.

  234. Trinity Beeper*

    I had a phone interview yesterday for a position that I found genuinely inspiring. They’re looking for someone who can do a lot of experimenting with the job to see what sticks. The slot was only a half hour so we didn’t have time to cover a lot of ground, and after the interview I kept thinking of new ideas I could bring to the role.

    Planning on sending the thank you email today. Is it out of line for me to bring up one of those ideas?

  235. Astrea*

    Rereading Alison’s guide to preparing for a job interview, I can’t understand how to reconcile the reminder that “The hiring manager wants to hire you and they think you’re qualified” with the recommended mindset of “I definitely won’t get the job, I don’t want it anyway, and if I think I might be unqualified then I probably am.” Even thinking about trying to internalize the latter makes me start to cry — I have enough doubts about the job, and little enough self-esteem, that such a mindset would prevent me from displaying any of the confidence and enthusiasm I want to show. And in this case, I *do* think I want the job and could be worthy of it, so telling myself I don’t and can’t is saying I can’t trust my own judgement and am wasting everyone’s time. Yet I see people here on AAM say that it works for them and…how do you do that?? What am I doing wrong?

    1. Zephy*

      > “I definitely won’t get the job, I don’t want it anyway, and if I think I might be unqualified then I probably am.”

      Who in the world is recommending that anybody think this way about a job they’re interviewing for??? That sounds like an easy way to sabotage yourself out of a job that excites you. Tell your inner Negative Nancy to take a hike. Sure, you don’t want to swing too far in the other direction and pin all your hopes and dreams on this one job, but the solution to that isn’t pre-emptive sour grapes!

      1. Astrea*

        It’s in Alison’s guide to preparing for a job interview. The idea is to take pressure off yourself by mentally pretending the interview is just practice, not something with high stakes to worry about. But for my general state of mind, and especially for a job I strongly want, it backfires badly.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Whoa, no, it does not say to think “I definitely won’t get the job, I don’t want it anyway, and if I think I might be unqualified then I probably am”! Read that section again!

          It says one tactic for dealing with nerves is to go in assuming assuming you’re not going to get the job to lower the stakes for yourself. Think of it as a practice session so you’re not so stressed. And lots of people say they do their best interviews when they don’t think they even want the job. That’s all that is about.

          The part about being unqualified says this: “If you’re worried you’re really not the right person for the job, decide that the interview is going to be your information session so you can find out. By the end of the interview, if you’re still feeling unqualified, you’re probably right — and thus this isn’t a job you want (because you don’t want a job you’re going to struggle in). And that’s okay — you’re qualified for other things, just not this one. Good for you for not talking your way into a situation you’ll regret.” That doesn’t mean go into it assuming you’re not unqualified; it says go into it with the goal of figuring that out, and it’s okay if it turns out you’re not.

          1. Astrea*

            I guess I get the intenton, kind of. But if I try telling myself “You’re not going to get the job ” or “You probably don’t even want the job” — the phrases in the guide — I start freaking out because that’s precisely the self-talk I had to fight off for long enough to apply for a job and am trying to hold at bay for the duration of an interview. The closest message I can helpfully tell myself is that this interview isn’t my *only* chance at such a job — *if* I don’t get the job, or *if* I get it but make the agonizing choice to decline it (which I’ve done for a badly-wanted job in the past and would hate to do again), there could be more opportunities to pursue something similar in the future. It doesn’t help to say the interview isn’t a chance *at all.*

            If a job involves work that I am unfixably incapable of doing, as is often the case due to my disabilities, it is ideed better to realize this in an interview (as I sometimes do) than after starting to attempt the work. But it can otherwise be difficult to judge my abilities without trying a job. I went into my most intensely challenging job hoping I could do it but soon discovering that I had no idea what I was getting into. Thankfully, it turned out to be work I loved and thrived in, and I might not have tried if I had known more about it, thinking it would surely be too hard. The job I most struggled at was one where I had been well-qualified to do the expected duties but found the workplace culture a bad fit and was stuck with many unexpected duties after half the staff left within a month of my arrival and and took months to be replaced.

  236. Someone Else*

    Dear People Who Write Job Postings,
    If the “Preferred Experience” section of your posting says “7+ years of experience”, the title of your job posting should not be “Entry Level Name of Position“.
    Love,
    Humans Who Know Meanings of Words

    1. DeColores*

      +1

      Looking at you, job posting for “entry level” that prefers Master’s + 4 years experience but will accept Bachelor’s + 8

  237. AdeBug*

    I am unhappy with my usable area. It is a not so deep desk with a bunch of hardware and there is barely any room for a small purse, a cup, and if I need 2 A4 sheets next to each other, one will overlap the other or the keyboard. No trash can, no shelf, no filing cabinet, just desk and chair. No walls or even half walls, just in the middle of a dozen people with real cubicals.
    Also if I need to relay private work related IDs etc over the phone, I feel compelled to leave the area completely but then walk back in for pieces of info that reside on my computer. If I write any private info down, I can’t store it anywhere if I go away, so I either scribble over every time or don’t write at all, possibly use phone which could give rise to info safety issues…
    Should I escalate my issue? If so, is HR the right place to go? Am I insane?

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