open thread – June 21-22, 2019

by Alison Green on June 21, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

You may also like:
{ 1,777 comments }

{ 1,777 comments… read them below }

  1. Anonymous Educator*

    I just got a job! Yay! But also it’s my first remote job, which I’m super excited about. I know some people designate an area of their apartment or house that’s “the office” (even if it’s just a table), and other people go out to co-working spaces or coffee shops. For people who either are working remotely or have worked remotely, anything else to think about? Anything you’d recommend?

    1. wittyrepartee*

      If you choose coworking spaces- go get a feel for the various ones in your area. My friend worked at a few, and found the crowd at some of them much more to her taste than others.

    2. Al who is that Al*

      Firstly I work to a rigid timeline. At desk for 9AM, lunch 1-2, finish at 5. Also I dress smart casual so that I feel I’m at work. Part of the stopping work ritual is to change back into my usual slob wear. Also I don’t check emails or anything afterwards. Its too easy to not be able to stop working

      1. londonedit*

        I did the same when I was freelancing. You’ll probably hear a lot of comments about ‘working from home, how great, sitting around in your pyjamas watching TV all day’ but the reality is that if your office is at home, it’s really no different from going to an actual office. I always found it really helpful to get up at a decent time, shower, get dressed – one perk was having a home-cooked breakfast and coffee at my desk while I checked my emails in the morning, but apart from that I started my day as any office worker would, just without the commute. I also made a point of putting my laptop away once my working hours were finished for the day.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I put my laptop away as well at night. I was debating with myself as to whether or not I should get a desk and set my stuff up on it so that it’s up and ready to go when I wake up; however, I don’t have the space for it so something in my apartment that I already love would have to go, and keeping my monitor and laptop out on a desk would probably ensure I’d be working when I don’t have to just because why not – it’s there. I think it’s best to just put everything away in the evenings if you can so you can detach and keep work from intruding any further into your home life as possible.

          1. JenRN*

            I’m the same. I leave the co-work space with enough juice in my computer to be able to leave the windows I need for the next day open. I then plug my computer in in leaving it in the bag (fan up) by the door and leave it! I also slip a list of to do items inside before leaving the co-work. Any add ins to the list are only sticky notes on the laptop cover. The only night where the computer gets opened again in the evening is the night the writing group meets.

      2. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        Ditto. I worked for about 7 years from home. I did exactly what “Al who is that Al” did. Before work get ready as if you were going to work in an office. Shower, dress in normal business attire, do your hair, etc.

        I strongly suggest having a dedicated room if possible. That way you will associate that room with work. Once you leave that room, you leave work. I even suggest closing the door to that room when you leave work and locking if possible. It is way too easy to end up working 12 hour days if you don’t physically separate your work environment.

        1. BethDH*

          I didn’t have space to do this, but I had a storage chest (like the kind you might put linens in at the foot of your bed). I kept all my work papers and laptop in there and was strict about closing it at the end of business hours. The visual cues made a big difference.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, I live in a 592 sf studio apartment, so no doors other than the entrance, the ones on my three closets, and bathroom. I’m going to buy a storage ottoman to put my work monitor in it at night once my company ships my replacement out to me.

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                I slid it behind a piece of furniture, lol. It was an adjustable monitor that could be turned every which way and could be pushed down, so that worked.

            2. Anonymousaurus Rex*

              My office set up is currently in my dining room, but I have a desk that completely closes up with doors. So after I’m done with work in the evenings, I close my laptop and extra monitor and all work papers up in the desk and I have my house back. It definitely helps with feeling “done” with work for the day.

      3. Person from the Resume*

        I designated my second bedroom as the office. I have an actual desk set up because I have second monitor and external keyboard and mouse and I only work from there. My second monitor is so important I don’t work from anywhere else. When I’m not working I’m hardly ever in that room although I do keep my rarely used personal laptop there and pay bills and stuff from the room.

        At the end of the day, I try to turn off my computer. It’s a sign that my work is complete and that I’m not just taking a break to come back later. When I am overwhelmed by too much work, my laptop is left on because I want to return to the task/document where I left off or I plan to return later after a break to finish up. Usually I didn’t come back later, but it left me feeling like I hadn’t done enough.

        I don’t work in my pajamas. I’m certainly not business casual, but I’m dressed and have completed my morning routine. I think it’s important to have a routine/ritual to mark the start and end of the day. Some people have problems getting started and keeping working throughout the day. I don’t do personal stuff during my working hours, certainly not watching TV (except on my half hour lunch) or napping. Some people have trouble stopping so it’s good to shut down and close the door to the office.

        1. Award winning llama wrangler*

          I am the same way with my second monitor! When I’m in our office and people are working from couches and/or beanbag chairs I think how I could NEVER do that, it would drive me crazy! I mean, it looks comfy and I wish I could, but nope. Not happening.

          1. Kat in VA*

            When I work from home, I literally work across three laptops. My second monitor at work is like gold to me.

      4. Fortitude Jones*

        I do the same thing, A1. I’m fully remote and work from my dining room table, but I still get up almost every morning and put on my business casual or business wear, do my makeup, and slip on some nice house shoes just like I did when I worked outside of the home. Doing so keeps me from climbing back into bed midday for a “nap” (I’m a germaphobe, so putting outside clothes in or on my bed is a hard no), which actually last hours, and puts me into work mode.

        I also make sure to take breaks during the day, even if it’s just to walk a few blocks to Starbucks for a coffee or to get lunch. I live in an apartment, so if I didn’t get out from time to time during the day, I think I’d go stir crazy. This also ensures I’m talking to other people besides my coworkers (I’m on a ton of calls for my job, which I now like, but used to hate).

      5. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        Its too easy to not be able to stop working

        Agree – never been FT remote, but I have WFH quite a bit and for a couple of years I had an extra bedroom that I turned into my office – I’d go into the office and shut the door so family wouldn’t bother me while I worked – it’s unreal how easy it is to forget to stop working.

      6. EngineerMom*

        I agree – when I work from home, I dress like I would for the office (business casual, generally slacks and a blouse), including my badge. I start work at 7, call in to my team’s huddle at 9, lunch at 11, done at 4. I take short breaks throughout the day when there’s a natural ebb in my tasks, sometimes to walk around the neighborhood for a few minutes, the “at-home” equivalent of walking between buildings at my company’s large campus.

      7. ProducerGalNYC*

        I agree with Al who is that Al. It’s very easy to sit down at your desk and never get up until the day has nearly ended. I set reminders to break for food, walk around my apt, and try to log off at the appropriate time. I also find that getting up and showering/changing right away helps me change my mindset, too.

        1. echidna*

          Yes, this. I do five minutes exercise every half- to 1 hour. Otherwise I simply wouldn’t move enough.

    3. Bend & Snap*

      have set work hours. it’s easy to let work suck up your evenings because you don’t log off at a specific time every day.

    4. Mary Smith*

      How much time will you spend on the phone? I used to go to coworking spaces, but because about 50% of my time is on the phone, I found I was spending most of my time in a tiny booth vs. being out with all of the other coworkers. Also, the few coworking places I went to people didn’t talk to one another.

      Other things:
      – Be very clear with your spouse that your work time is for your work. Sometimes I bend this like “Can you let the repair person in?” Yep, cool. But poking their head in being like “I’m hungry, can you stop working and cook dinner.” Cook it yourself if you can’t wait til I’m done.
      – Playing music helps me feel less lonely.
      – Still leave the house at least once per day. I go to the gym every morning and that helps a lot. Or, I’ll run an errand on my “lunch”
      – When I’m working on solitary projects, I literally set the timer on my phone for 20 minutes. When it dings, I gt up and do something for 5 minutes around the house. Get a snack, unload the dishwasher, play with the cat, etc. When the 5 minute timer dings, back to work. I’ve found I’m much more productive this way.
      – Use chat to still visit with your coworkers, especially if the majority of them are in an office. You need to still develop personal relationships.

      1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

        All brilliant ideas. I think I would go for an hour rather than 20 minutes but having set breaks could be helpful. Whatever works for you and whatever you would do if you worked in an office.

        I also fully agree with getting out of the house at least once a day and making sure your SO knows that you are at work and are not to be disturbed unless it is something they would call you at work for if you worked in an office.

        Further, for me, it was even more important to get out of the house at least a couple of times a week during the evening. My wife loves her “along time” and if I didn’t get out from time to time, it would drive her crazy.

      2. LadyByTheLake*

        Everything Mary Smith said. Perfect.
        Also, if you will be spending a lot of time on the phone, make sure you have a top notch, extremely comfortable wireless headset. That will be worth every penny you spend on it.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Or a Jabra conference speakerphone. My company gave me the option of this or a headset, and I chose the speakerphone because you can plug it into the laptop and the sound quality is amazing – I can talk from clear across the room while standing at my balcony door to get some sunshine and everyone on the other end of the line can still hear me clearly.

      3. Name (Required)*

        OP – Congrats!

        I worked FT remote for 1.5 years (now just 1-2 days wfh/week for ~6 months). The “leave the house every day” rule was so critical for my mental health that I ended up getting a dog for the companionship + literal need to leave the house daily.

    5. Everdene*

      Congratulations! Try and build some face to face contact into your week where possible. Remote working can be great but lonely if you don’t have plenty of social interactions for whatever your level is.

    6. SpringIsForPlanting!*

      Engage in brief ‘water-cooler’ chat with colleagues where feasible. It feels weird at first doing this over chat or on a call, but you don’t actually have the natural opportunities to make those personal connections otherwise. Remaining a “person” to your colleagues as opposed to a voice on the phone or a name in an email (a) improves your work experience but also (b) improves your working relationships and thus your ability to get work done effectively.
      To that end also–try to visit the office, if there is one, at least once or twice a year.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I’m actually traveling to my company’s headquarters Sunday to spend the upcoming week there (it’s in another state). My boss is coming from overseas and we’ll be able to onboard my new counterpart and have face time with two more of our team members – the other six members are spread out across the US and various other countries around the globe. I’m interested to spend the week getting to meet other people I’ve been collaborating with; however, since my company is global, I still won’t be meeting even a tenth of the people I work with on a regular basis.

    7. Miss Vaaangie*

      When I worked from home, I coworked at a space that a friend owned. It was nice to have a place to go, but I had to drive too far to make it worthwhile. I appreciated being around others, but also know that cowork spaces often host events that you can participate in, but they might also disrupt your work. I hate coffee shops because you can’t leave anything when you need to go to the bathroom, their tables/spaces are remotely comfortable, and it gets very loud in most of them.

      Priority is creating a schedule, assuming you work the same of your coworkers. Make sure you leave the house – short walks, lunch time whatever.

      Always get dressed – it’ll make you feel productive. It obviously doesn’t have to be work appropriate but get out of your pajamas.

      Is this contract or W2? If contract, make sure you keep track of taxes and office use. If W2 – are you technologically set up to communicate with your workplace and keep those costs hands for tax time. Are they providing it or are you – phone, computer, wi-fi, etc.

      have fun and congratulations!

    8. Don't you be that kind of barn owl*

      I’ve not heard of “co-working” spaces. What are they? Do you pay some sort of rent or user fee?

      1. De Minimis*

        Yes, they’re spaces where desks and/or small offices are rented out, usually monthly. Wi-fi and other amenities are often provided.

    9. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I’m coming up on 5 years of full-time remote work. I think the most important thing — know thyself. What I mean by that is, figure out what works for you and stick to it. Some other folks here are strict on scheduling, always dress for work, etc, and if that’s what you find works for you, go for it! I, on the other hand, am doing 1:1s today in orange fleece pants and a red t-shirt with a rather untidy bun (held up by a tiny cutlass!) and I haven’t left my house since Sunday, and if I tried to dress up for work it’d drive me bonkers because to me, one of the advantages to WFH is that I can get dressed in the dark and my dogs don’t care. :) I do stick more or less to the same schedule, and another advantage is that I can work early and be done early. I get up at 6:30 and am logged into my work computer by 6:40 most mornings, and then I’m done working and in my living room by 3-3:30 and have the whole rest of my day — infrequent on-site days, I get up at 6:30 and I’m not even started working til 8, leaving til 4:30 and home til 5:15-5:30.

      For me, the important thing that I discovered was that I can take two minutes to do something housework-like – throw in a load of laundry or whatever – but anything more than that, and it daisy-chains into an hour of housework before I realized it.

      Also, people in your life will forget that while you’re working from home, you’re WORKING, not just twiddling your thumbs on the couch.

      From a practical standpoint — what are they supplying you with? I get a computer/docking station/monitors, plus they offered me keyboard/mouse/headset (VOIP phone runs through the computer) but I chose to use my own because I’m picky about peripherals. Anything else I think I need is on me. Do they cover any sort of internet stipend? (mine doesn’t.) What are their policies about your workspace? Mine requires a room that nobody else is regularly hanging out in while I’m working (door not mandatory; my office used to be my house’s second living room, but I work with medical records, so can’t have other people looking at my screens, and I can’t have a printer hooked up to my work computer either), a fire extinguisher, verification that my home/renter’s insurance covers the work equipment, high speed wired internet, and that I cannot be the only caretaker for children under 12 while working. How much flexibility DO you have on your schedule? If you have to book an afternoon appointment, do you have to use PTO for it, or can you just work five hours before and three hours after and call it good? Do you have to stick to a set of office hours or core hours? Will you have other remote teammates who choose to work evening or weekend shifts regularly instead of bankers hours, and how does that impact what you need to do if at all? How often does the whole team get together in person for anything?

      1. Triplestep*

        I agree with this. Not all the rules work the same for everyone.

        I am still trying to figure out what works best for me from all the common wisdom (started this job in February) but I saw early on that carving out 8 consecutive hours was not going to work. First, very few people with whom I interact are in my time zone. Most of them are six hours ahead in Europe, and plenty of them are in Asia. I can’t rely as much on e-mail since it could take a while to get (or provide) an answer, so I need to be on chat or a call at off times. I also have way too much on my plate, and I work for a large consultancy, so no one really cares how much is on it. You just have to do it. So I know I’ll be working some this weekend, for example, but due to the time zone thing, Friday afternoons are dead so I can start to wind down if I want to.

        I do have a space in my house just for my “office” but I am lucky as an empty-nester I really have my choice of spaces. My basement is dry and cool so the old playroom is my office right now. But when it’s heating season again I will move up to my son’s old bedroom. (I use a space heater – can’t see heating the whole house when I’m the only one here.)

        When I had a killer commute, I spent a lot of weekend time cooking lunches for the week to take with me. Well, I am back to doing that because having a full kitchen with nothing to simply grab saw my eating habits decline. I have found that just because I have access to a full kitchen doesn’t mean I want to take time to actually prepare something – as others have pointed out, it is harder to get back to work when you take breaks for household tasks.

        My rule for getting dressed is that I want to be presentable should someone come to my door, or if I go out to chat with one of my neighbors, or if I decide spur of the moment to run an errand. For me this has meant track pants because I work at a standing desk and I often will start to march in place or do squats to keep my blood flowing. I did do the timer thing, and I’ll probably try it again, but I found it interrupted my train of thought.

        Good luck, and congrats on the new job!

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I also have a space heater in my office – I keep the thermostat during the winter daytime at 66, the same way I would do if nobody was home, because my preferred temperature is closer to mid-70s, but I sure to hell don’t need to be paying to heat my whole house that way when I’m spending most of my time in about a twenty square foot space.

          So that’s another thing, OP — some of your home expenses will increase. You’ll use more electricity at home, probably a bit more water. More toilet paper :P You may find that your eating habits improve, when you have access to your own kitchen — but everyone else who lives in my house has a high metabolism, a very physical job or both, so we tend to have a lot of snacks, and I personally find it easier to resist the snack food when I have to pay for it out of a vending machine than when it’s just in the cupboard. :) So again, know thyself.

          Also, internet expenses — if you opt for a business package, your monthly cost will be higher and you may find yourself obligated to a contract, but if the internet goes down, you’ll be prioritized to get it fixed. If you stick with a residential package, you have lower pricing, probably no contract, but if the internet goes down, you’re hosed, and if you call up Customer Service and go “But I need it for work!” they’ll tell you too bad, you don’t have a business account, so wait your turn. Another difference is that residential usually has a monthly data limit while business doesn’t — with me working from home full-time and my housemate part-time, plus our regular usage, it bumped us over Comcast’s basic terabyte limit, so we pay additional for unlimited data. (“Are you sure,” asked the CSR, “Only about 1% of our customers ever get anywhere near the terabyte.” “Take a look at our account history,” I said. She paused. “…. oh. Well, let’s get that set up for you.” Not how I wanted to be one of the 1%, but hey, whatever. :) ) I ended up with residential package plus unlimited data, and we haven’t had more than a couple hours outage a handful of times in the last three years, but consider your experience. (Also, if your internet or power goes down, have a backup plan – library? coffee shop?)

          1. Kuddel Daddeldu*

            Good advice on internet reliability.
            I’d suggest getting a cell phone plan with tethering enabled so you can hook up the mobile to your PC if the landline internet goes down. It may even be that the company pays for the mobile plan (mine does, but then I’m more working while traveling than either in the office or at home).

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        These are all great questions the OP needs to consider. My company has no real rules for working remotely, but we’re a software company, so we’re not dealing with other people’s personally identifying information. They also supplied me with all equipment (laptop, docking station, monitor, conference speakerphone, iPhone 8 Plus for travel [which they pay for in lieu of paying for my cheap internet]) and if I need any other equipment or office stationary (e.g. paper, pens, staplers, binders, folders, etc.), I can just put in a request, and they’ll send everything to me free of charge. Our handbook says all remote workers are entitled to the same office set ups as in-house employees.

        Since my team is global with time zones that don’t always overlap well, management allows me to make my own schedule and if I need to go to a doctor’s appointment or something during the day, I don’t have to use PTO since there are many times where I’m working outside of normal business hours in order to meet a deadline or attend a conference with someone in another country. It’s great!

    10. Anonymous Educator*

      These are all excellent tips so far! Thanks so much. And keep ’em coming if you have more. I’m taking notes!

    11. Booksalot*

      It definitely varies from person to person, so you will probably want to experiment.

      Against usual advice to “dress the part”, I find that working in my jammies keeps me grateful/motivated/cognizant of the opportunity to work remotely, so I do it intentionally. I do, however, follow common advice to keep a strict schedule to avoid time bleed.

      One thing to watch out for is that it’s so easy to let ergonomics slide when you work remotely, so I have to force myself to use a proper chair, good mouse placement, etc.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        When I worked from home, I kept a normal get up/shower/breakfast routine, but often just put sweatpants on after the shower, rather than “work clothes”! Making a firm transition in the morning was important to me, but not so important that I needed to be uncomfortable if no one was going to see me!

        1. KR*

          Oh me too. Totally agree on the transition. I’m in my underwear and a t-shirt right now. But I showered and put on makeup to signify I am ready for the day. Also means if I need to run to my office which is close by I can just put on real clothes and go.

        3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          I have a couple folks on my team who go out and walk around the block before and after work to “commute” to and from “work mode” :)

          1. Triplestep*

            This is a good idea! I may try this – I was thinking of going to the gym before work, but being online early is important to me, so I haven’t wanted to take the time. A walk around the block I could manage :)

            1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

              I’d like to, but my dogs (who are excitable when doors are involved and don’t have particularly great leash manners either individually or in tandem, which is entirely my fault) make early morning walks a complicated notion. :) I usually go out for a walk first thing after I log off in the afternoon though.

        4. Anonymousaurus Rex*

          Yep, this is what I do. I get up and go to the gym, come home and shower…and then put on a clean set of workout clothes most days, occasionally I’ll wear jeans or a sundress. I’m comfortable, and presentable enough to answer the door or run out to Target after work, but nowhere near office-level professional.

      2. Oxford Comma*

        I have recently been given the go ahead to work a few days remotely and have been experimenting to figure out what works best for me.

        I do not dress the part. I do find that taking a proper shower, eating breakfast, and staying in the office (an extra bedroom) keeps me on task, but sweats and t-shirts all the way.

    12. Constance Lloyd*

      I’ve worked from home for 3 years now and I break all of the rules- Sometimes I wear real clothes and sit at my real desk, but today I’ve been in bed, in my pajamas, working away. I do, however, have one silly ritual that I keep to: I have a work candle. When work is done, I blow the candle out. So while I do highly recommend wearing real clothes and sitting at a desk, at least at first, there are other ways to create a mental division between “work” and “home” environment.

      2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        A similar suggestion someone made to me years ago is to take off your watch when your work day ends. Doesn’t sound like much, but I was surprised at how well it worked for me. Other techniques were the same as lots of people have suggested here: get dressed (usually jeans and sweatshirt, but fresh and clean), have a schedule (mine usually coincided w/ regular business hours for my clients), and take those short morning and afternoon breaks for a walk around the block in addition to lunch (I confess: lunch scheduled at the time the old Perry Mason reruns were on TV. Love those.) Sometimes if I got cabin fever I’d go to the main public library that had study carrels and work for part of the afternoon. Also: avoid buying cake just because it’s on special at the market, because it will disappear from the refrigerator fast and reappear on your hips and fanny.

    13. Emmie*

      An ergonomic desk set up is a must. I cannot stress this enough. I ended up injured from a poor office set up. It’s okay to work from other areas of your home, like your patio, for very short periods, but know your body. I am going on 7+ years of WFH with 4 years full-time remote.
      I also encourage you to set boundaries with family and friends. People are bold. They have a skewed vision of WFH flexibility. They will request to visit you during the day, to call you during the day, to work from the waterfront (pool, lake, ocean), to leave early, to watch their kids, to start dinner early, etc… I can go to lunch with people, but I cannot work poolside or from the sand in the ocean! I can’t even see my cell phone from the water! Know your own limits.
      Find out where your fellow remote coworkers live in conference calls – even after you’ve been at the company for years. I found a few people lived close to me, and we get together periodically.

      1. Michael Valentine*

        You are so right about ergonomics. I have messed up my neck using a weird couch/side table set up.

        1. Emmie*

          I did the same with my shoulder because I didn’t have a pull out keyboard. I’m sorry you had the same experience, Michael!

    14. Michael Valentine*

      I’ve worked from home for 3.5 years now. My habits have changed over the years. I do try to have some rituals in the morning to get in work mode, but I’m not strict about it.

      Boundaries have been my biggest challenge, both with work people and personal friends. For work folks, it got to where I was pretty much on call because I made myself so available. These days, I make sure to have a hard stop between 5 and 6 every day–someone can text me if something is a true emergency. Guess what, there have been no true emergencies.

      As for friends and family, though, it is still a struggle to impart that I DO work and that my flexible job doesn’t mean I can be gone all day or just skip hours all the time. A family member mentioned recently that she didn’t sign my husband up for something because he works, so I was signed up instead (and the timing was terrible). Uh, I do work-she just “forgot” since I don’t go into the office. I’m also on the PTA board, and they assume I can just come and go as I please. Folks, I put in 50 hours a week at my job minimum. If I’m at the book fair all day, I will then have to work all night…

      One side note: I do have the TV on sometimes because the silence is otherwise deafening. The price is right at low volume makes great background noise for me!

    15. Queenie*

      I found it helpful to create a routine that worked for me. My job was extremely flexible hours wise but as a more rigid 8-4 person I found it helpful to make my own work routine and stick to it. I never really dressed up for work, as the type of work I did would be odd to come in business casual even in an office, but honestly found it helped shift me into “work mode” changing into comfy work clothes before I started, and into pjs (or something else) when I was done for the day. Also if you can, lock your office or store your work stuff somewhere out of sight at the end of the day! It really helps separate.

    16. Xingcat*

      Take your break time! It’s far too easy to just put your head down and work through lunch, through the times in the day where you’d stop by a coworker’s desk to chat, during the times when you’d head out of the office for a few minutes to run an errand, when you’re trying to show productivity at home. Stop and start on time, as well. I found myself picking up the laptop and working a full extra hour or two before I normally would because it’s just as easy to start as it would be to not, and that can really eat into your time and make you burn out quickly.

      1. Anonymousaurus Rex*

        Yes! I’m really good about not working late, but I’m bad about starting early! I will often just start work a good hour and half before I need to. Definitely something I’m working on.

    17. Jana*

      If you decide to work at home rather than at a co-working space, something I think is useful is adding “commute” time to your day. For me, that means going for a walk (even if it’s just around the block) before my start time and then going for another walk at the end of the day. That routine just kind of puts me in the mindset of being on my way to work and on my way home from work.

    18. New ED*

      We had an intern last year ago was assigned to write an update for our website on an event we participates in and she attended. She did not even get started on it because she was “afraid of receiving a lot of edits and corrections” on her draft. Instead she spent two days reclassifying a whole set of information in a database we used regularly because she thought she had an idea for how it could look more consistent. She announced that she’d done this the next week and was shocked that we were horrified instead of grateful. She then got to sit with the person whose job it was too manage this database for hours to help him figure out how to undo everything she did because what “looked more consistent” had nothing to do with what our organization actually needed the data for.

    19. smoke tree*

      Unlike others here I definitely do not dress business casual! I dress like I normally would on a day off, though, not in my pajamas. I do have a separate work table and I recommend investing in a decent monitor and office chair. I’d also recommend using your lunch time to join a class or something social, if you can. Good luck! I love working from home. I feel like it gives me a lot more free time–no commute, no wasted time in the morning, no time in the evening spent preparing lunches and that kind of thing.

    20. Database Developer Dude*

      Invest in a good pair of headphones. If you telework from a coffee shop, they’re going to save your sanity.

  2. Seifer*

    It’s officially summer, and so starts summer intern season! We currently have one intern in our department and he’s okay, if not a bit of a… gumption-y type of guy. Day one started with him being introduced to a process and asking why we don’t do it this way with this other program that he took a class in last semester, and insisting that he can overhaul the whole system if someone gives him access to it, don’t worry! We… inherited the system from the client, who likes the system and wants things submitted that way. We know it is a hassle. But like. Please do not.

    Any other intern stories? I always find them interesting since I was far too meek as an intern to be that memorable. Or so I think….

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      I once had an intern tell me after training him on a task that he took this internship to be part of X group not my group so could I take him over there now?
      He was not hired by X group because X group doesn’t have interns due to rigorous credentialing required to work there. He never talked to anyone from X group but they are fairly well known in our area so he knew where they worked and just decided once he got the internship he could choose his group from there. Its true that X group was part of the financial group umbrella but you don’t get to pick your assignment…we do.
      He was not asked back or offered a position after the internship. We were even nice and talked to X group about a project we knew they had coming up and if he could help on some of the low level stuff. They were not impressed with his skills or attitude since he kept showing up to that area every day thereafter and had to be sent back to us.

      1. Seifer*

        Oh man haha! We had something… kind of similar? happen last year. We were deeply entrenched in engineering a thing that requires a clearance to even know about and so had our intern take care of the regular stuff. He was adamant that not only should he be allowed to work on the stuff that we were working on, he should be in charge of it. When we pointed out, uh, you don’t have a clearance? Also you’re doing terrible at the stuff that we’ve actually asked you to do? He said we should just get him a clearance. We said no, because he’s only going to be here for a few months and that’s pointless. So then he sulked for the remainder of his internship and didn’t do anything.

    2. Auntie Social*

      It’s going to be a loooong summer for you. I told interns that it would look better if they learned multiple systems/programs because it would make them look more flexible, after I tired of being told by 20 year olds that we were “doing it wrong”. The last one who thought he was God’s gift wanted to “effect policy” and announced that to a name partner, and asked when he could do that. “When you have your own firm” came the answer. After that he was allowed to do nothing interesting.

      1. Seifer*

        Hahahaha oh god that is amazing. And oh, I hope the summer is long, I’m not ready for cold again, but at the same time, if I have to keep shutting this intern down I will lose it. He calmed down after the first few days though, so hopefully it’ll just get better from here.

      2. Entry Level Marcus*

        To be fair, young people receive a lot of advice from parents, career counselors, and even some internship managers to be “entrepreneurial” and to make a difference in the place they’re interning. I remember having a manager at one of my internships tell me to be more entrepreneurial, though I received little guidance on that front and the few ideas I had were shot down (which is bit frustrating, but mostly fine by me as I prefer to keep my head down anyway). I feel like people like the idea of young people being entrepreneurial more than the reality.

        1. C*

          Ugh. I’m not entrepreneurial. Not everyone is. In fact, we wouldn’t want everyone to be, so why would anyone think all interns should be? Ugh.

            1. College Career Counselor*

              Well, yes. But you can be entrepreneurial within your organization. But you’ve got to know your role AND your audience. Individual contributor who is a subject matter expert and needs buy-in from other people/departments (this is me right now)? YES. Intern just there to learn the ropes? NOPE.

            2. Artemesia*

              I have a relative who as a new trainee (not an intern) was put in temporary charge of a stodgy department of a big retail company in a big city and transformed it so effectively that it launched his career as a gazzilionaire and CEO by age 30. None of the other 25 or so trainees had anything like his career arc. It is hard to tell a newbie how to be the magic successful standout because most of the people managing him also won’t be that kind of success.

          2. Jill March*

            I’m not even sure I’d know what that meant. I know what the word means, but not how that would translate to workplace behavior–at least outside of an MLM. I know now how to ask follow-up questions to figure out what the manager is looking for, but when I was intern-age? I’d be super frustrated.

            Makes me think there’s probably an equally rich trove of stories of bad internship managers from former interns.

        2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          I worked for one company that proudly described itself as “entrepreneurial.” In reality, that meant “whoever yells the loudest gets their way.” The loud yellers that management were most likely to view as up-and-comers were young 2os, not long out of school, very good-looking. and usually male.

      3. Liz*

        I LOVE the partner’s response. And also that he wasn’t allowed to do anything interesting anymore.

    3. CapeCodGal*

      I just had an interesting intern experience today!

      We’re training a new group of summer interns and arranged a lunch and learn type meeting with a Senior Director on our team to give them a chance to ask questions/meet someone higher up in the organization. She gave a brief presentation on how our clients work and opened up the room for questions. One of the interns raised his hand and asked how often they would be drug tested! The director was totally stunned.

      2. MatKnifeNinja*

        Well, one needs to know if you can wake and bake before work.

        My sister who hires says that question comes up more than you think.

      3. Mr. Shark*

        Holy cow! That’s a good introduction and first impression to the Senior Director. Lol!

      4. lulu*

        ha, that is priceless!

        It would be a kindness to sit down with the intern afterward to explain that you need to tailor questions to your audience, HR vs senior management vs colleagues, etc. Hopefully in 10 years time they can look back at that moment and laugh/cringe when they realize what they did back then!

    4. Ann Perkins*

      We had a summer intern once who would repeatedly not come in for the hours we told him to. It was his version of gumption-y to show up much earlier than we told him… so if we said 10-2 he would be there at 7:30 before we even were! He was there for admin work so it didn’t really matter which hours he was there, except we usually didn’t have anything for him to do that early, and we would end up sending him home by lunch because there was nothing to do and we weren’t going to pay him to just sit around. It was odd – I can’t imagine showing up hours different than what I told.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        I had this happen on the first day of the internship. We had about 4 interns all starting on the same Monday morning, we told them via email not to show up til 9 am. All 4 of them showed up between 8:20 and 8:40. That was waaaay to early for me. I am usually the first one in the office at 8ish am, but most everyone else does not show up til 9 am. I have a usual routine, of making coffee, eating breakfast, catching up on email. They interrupted that routine. That morning I had some substantive work that needed to be done first thing, in addition to printing the new hire paperwork for them to fill out.

        I was able to pull some stuff together, but they had to sit around with not much to do after they filled out all the paperwork til about 9:15/9:25.

        I think towards the end of the internship I am going to tell them, that it wasn’t a huge deal, but that they should not show up more than 10/15 minutes earlier then what they are told, or if they are paranoid about the first day wait at a coffee shop near the site.

        1. mcr-red*

          They sound like my husband. He’s obsessed about getting wherever we’re going on time, which that’s fine, except he always misjudges how long it will take to get there, so we usually end up places a good 20-40 minutes early! That’s fine when we’re going to a movie at the mall, not so fine when we’re going to a friend’s house who lives out in the middle of nowhere and there’s nowhere to kill time but their driveway.

        2. TechWorker*

          I think this one is common and pretty understandable to be fair! They’re super paranoid about being late, which translates into ‘20-40min’ early…

        3. Federal Middle Manager*

          20-40 minutes early is not outrageous. They don’t know how traffic, parking, security access, etc. work. There are a lot of unknowns on a first day and, of course, they don’t want to be late.

        4. Prawn to be wild*

          On a first day they should show up at the time they’re told and not one minute early.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            Funny, there were been temp jobs I used to work at where I would have been fired for not being 10-15 minutes early.

            2. Jasnah*

              Agreed, I wouldn’t penalize someone for not coming 10-15 min early, but I would note that someone came right on the dot…is that intentional precision or luck? Are they going to leave right on the dot too?

        5. Moocowcat*

          Oh, my sympathies. I could have been that intern. I was taught to always show up for work 20 min early. There would be time to take off my coat and otherwise prepare for the work day. If a bus happened to come early, I totally could have been at a place 30 to 40 min early. It’s good that you told the interns about how time actually Works at your employeer.

        6. Kuddel Daddeldu*

          OP, did you communicate a time range clearly? Otherwise they will of course err on the side of being early.
          My last internship was 33 years ago. I’ll still be early for client appointments, especially when I go there for the first time so I do not know enough about real traffic time, parking, security etc.
          I can always wait at a nearby coffee shop or reception (of course I’ll tell the receptionist that I’m early and do not expect my host to be ready).
          Still if the message was to be there “between 9 and 10, not before 9”, then I’d do my best to arrive in that time frame – aiming for around 9:05, I think.

      2. BigRedGum*

        ack! that’s so odd. I used to work in retail & people would do this. we’d have to tell them to go shop elsewhere or hang around outside until their shift started.

    5. AnnieOnymous*

      I’m more worried for our intern that just started than the other way around. She was put in an empty cubicle near a “Debbie Downer” guy that is telling her how awful the company is and what a bunch of idiots work here and examples of how he’s had to fix other peoples mistakes because they’re so stupid. Even if she understands to take his observations with a grain of salt, surely she wouldn’t want to work with such an annoying DD. She’s got a formal mentor that is pretty good so here’s hoping it works out!

      1. KTBot*

        I was that intern… my cube-mate had already given notice (which felt like >2 weeks based on how long i shared a cube with him…), but he basically told me how terrible it was to work there. Luckily my mentor was awesome and I got to know a number of other employees and decided that it was mostly a case of bad fit for that guy.

    6. philosophical_conversation*

      When I was an intern at the company I now work for, we had one ridiculously entitled intern, Fergus. It was really unfortunate because he had an awesome mentor who was a great resource and incredibly well liked. But Fergus, man, he had no idea how an office worked. Where we worked, we were lucky enough to all have private offices, even as interns. However, only a half-dozen or so have windows because of the layout the building. He complained to the office manger that his office didn’t have a window and that he needed to be moved to one with a widow, and that the AC in his office needed to be turned up higher.
      We were also in a group of five interns who were able to have a meeting with the VP of our division and Fergus spent half the time asking the VP about what job position specifically would lead to a management track and what the fastest way would be to move up the chain. Well, eventually Fergus realized that the position I was interning for would be the best starting point to move up in management, so he made it his goal to try to poach my job (internships at this company are basically viewed as a long job interview, so if you do well, you’re almost guaranteed a full-time offer.)
      Fergus was renting a room in a house with another intern and a couple full-time employees at the company and apparently as soon as he got home, he started badmouthing his mentor, the other interns, and full-time employees he worked with. I guess one day he started off on a rant about how he could do a much better job at a project that one of the full-time employees was working on (a large, difficult, and time consuming design).
      Needless to say, Fergus did not get a full-time offer.

      1. Scarlet*

        I would like more entitled Fergus stories please.

        Especially if you know where he is now? How it all went for him afterwards?

    7. Mary Smith*

      Ugh, I was that intern. And let me say that one of the best things that happened to me was that my boss pulled me aside and mentored me a lot, which I thank her for in my head often. She prevented me from making these mistakes at my first full time job.

      I think it’s important to remember that this is a learning experience for them and an opportunity to learn from mistakes before it can really impact their full time career. So please, please coach them.

    8. Kris*

      A few weeks ago I was in the middle of an involved discussion with my boss when our intern knocked on the open door, walked in, interrupted me mid-sentence, and began talking to my boss about an unrelated issue.

        1. Kris*

          Yes, I think this is more a personality issue than an intern issue, but it was certainly not a great way for the intern to make an impression on me.

    9. Dust Bunny*

      We (academic library) had an MLIS intern years ago who had Very Specific Ideas about what librarians and archivists should and should not do in their jobs. We’re associated with a large and well-established medical community but our department specifically is rather small so it’s a given that everyone has their job duties . . . plus whatever else falls in our laps (this week, mine included sweeping bugs out of overhead lights and unclogging a couple of toilets, although “other duties” are not usually that far removed from library/archive work).

      I’m an assistant, not an MLIS, so I’m supposed to get a lot of the semiskilled grunt work–scanning, putting stuff in clean boxes, reference requests, etc. But I came back from an extended weekend to find a bunch of notes and a series of forwarded emails waiting for me because Intern had decided that these were beneath an MLIS and she shouldn’t have to do them. Even though the point of an internship is to learn the job, and even though a whole lot of archivists are one-person departments (we call them “lone arrangers”). Apparently she expected to only work for places large and endowed enough to have a squad of underlings who would do this for her and would not require her input, ever.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        So what did you do? Did you do the work or talk to the MLIS or the intern’s manager and get the intern to do that work?

        1. Dust Bunny*

          I checked with my supervisor under the guise of asking him which things needed to be handled first, and he sent most of it back to her (a few things were complex and, since she had stalled the turnaround by foisting them off on me, needed to be done by someone who knew the archives better than she did. So basically I got those because, despite just being a lowly assistant, I still knew the job better than she did.)

          My supervisor is not dumb, though. I have since heard that she finished her internship with a somewhat strained relationship with the supervisor/department head and her immediate supervisor/department “second in command” because of her attitude.

        2. Dust Bunny*

          To be clear: She was generally very good, but inexperienced–because interns are–and maybe a big for her britches.

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        As a librarian who plunged a toilet this week and cleaned up biological waste last week, I have zero patience for the “I’m too highly educated to do that task” mentality.

    10. mamma mia*

      You acknowledge the system is a hassle and you’re criticizing his “gumption” for making suggestions and offering to change it? That seems all sorts of unreasonable. Once, he’s told that the client likes it that way, he shouldn’t really push back but the initial comment strikes me as the kind of initiative I would want on my team. I would much prefer that kind of intern to one who just fades into the background.

      1. BethDH*

        I think it’s poorly handled by the intern, who should be asking rather than assuming. It’s different to say “can I ask why you do Process using Program A instead of Program B?” and to say “I can fix this in minutes if you give me access” — the latter really makes it sound like he assumes everyone else is stupid. Of course, a good mentor would ideally (given time) explain that kind of nuance to the intern, who is probably trying to prove his value and doesn’t realize how it will come across.

      2. Seifer*

        Eh, if he had made the comment after learning the system that would’ve been one thing, but we only got as far as showing him the excel before he interrupted, telling us it was inefficient and wanting to take on the whole overhaul by himself. That’s the kind of behavior that sends up yellow flags for me, since the work we do is pretty heavily regulated by the client.

        Taking initiative is all well and good, but there is a time and a place for it. I’d prefer he learn that first instead of having to worry that he’s going to take it upon himself to change the entire product and make us scramble to revert it before the hard deadlines we have. So we explained that to him and he’s gotten better, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable to side eye him for insisting on a change before hearing all of the reasoning behind why it is the way it is.

        1. CC*

          “insisting on a change before hearing all of the reasoning behind why it is the way it is.”

          Oh, like those high level passing-through management types who swoop in and make their “mark” on a company by changing something, *anything*, in the first 3 months because it proves that they’re Good At What They Do, which is Changing Things.

      3. Admin of Sys*

        You’d rather someone immediately assume that the current process is incorrect because it is difficult and / or complicated and should therefore be changed before asking why the process is the way it is? I get that there are probably ‘Cut the end off the ham’ processes that need to be changed in any organization, but IMO good office dynamics involve asking why the process is the way it is, not assuming it’s incorrect.

        1. Mimi Me*

          Yes! At last job there were several employees who used this ridiculously old system and they decided to train a new employee on it for coverage. She didn’t like the system and made a huge stink about it, how it needed to be updated and how the company was backward for using it. Well, it was an old system, but it was also used by the government and without this system in place they would have been out of compliance and would have opened themselves up to all sorts of fines. Sometimes companies want to update but until the client does it first they’re unable to.

          1. Rachel in NYC*

            My office uses a computer program that we hate and periodically talk about replacing. But replacing it would be a massive undertaking in both time and money. (And there is agreement that if we do it, we need to move to a system that does exactly what we need it to do rather then 80% of what we need.) However, anytime we hire someone new we get comments about how horrible the computer program is.

            1. mcr-red*

              Ugh, we use a computer program that’s so old people actually ask, “That’s still around?” But the company’s not going to pony up the $ for new software, so here we are.

            2. Gumby*

              However, anytime we hire someone new we get comments about how horrible the computer program is.

              We use some software like this. But everyone everywhere comments about how awful it is. In fact, I introduce new people to it with some variation on “Yes, this is awful and out of date and a pain to work with but it’s what we’re stuck with.”

          2. Who Plays Backgammon?*

            Lucky all she did was complain. This was a “new employee” rather than an “intern” story, but same kind of thing: newbie hire at a satellite office thought our centralized computer system took too long so he went in and disabled some of the features. Only it backfired, and not just on him. I sat next to IT and I heard them going nuts trying to fix this sudden problem from nowhere. They pinpointed it at the satellite office and called them. Smarty-butt newbie bragged about his improvements. IT head gave him a right earful about the company-wide problems he’d caused and to keep his mitts out of the system, and he argued with her about how slow the system was and did she think it was acceptable for him to have to wait and what else was he to do. Long story short, he lost the argument.

      4. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        I had a similar thought while reading many of the comments on this thread. (Disclaimer: I promise I’m not a helicopter parent and no one at the company in question knows any of my thoughts about this) (Now the story) When my older son, who works in the same field that I do, was an intern at Large Software Vendor in our area (US northeast-midwest), he got written up for calling a piece of software code “bad code”. He was told he was being negative. The dev who’d written the code was no longer working with the company, which they’d left years ago. My son’s main takeaway from this incident was that he’s not a great fit for a large corporation that is set in its ways. That was six years ago and he’s been out of college 6.5 years and has been working at Silicon Valley startups ever since (one company in person and is on his second startup working remotely, where he and his partner who lives in CA are the two people starting the business). He is way better at his job than I am, was well-liked at his first job (which was where he got his current connections from) and tbh makes more than I ever will. And I believe him that it was bad code.

        We just got our first batch of interns at my current job; the workplace is going through a lot of growing pains and could benefit from a lot of process improvement and I for one would be happy to get input from the proverbial fresh pair of eyes – even if the eyes belong to an intern. I’m not saying they should burst into executive meetings and deliver their ideas to the CEO, but feedback is a gift. We put our interns through an interview process and had more candidates than open positions – we were screening for good fit and talent – I for one am willing to believe that these young men and women are talented professionals in the early stages of their careers, not cogs in our company engine, or blank slates that I’m supposed to write whatever I want on. (Jury’s out on whether I will be thinking the same way when the intern season ends, lol.)

        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          Um bad math above (never hire me as an intern). “he’s been out of college 5.5 years”, not 6.5.

        2. Seifer*

          I think that’s different. I didn’t mean to come off like… UGH, the interns are TALKING again, how DARE they. But I do think that they should learn when is a good time to give input. It’s like when I watch movies with my roommate and he’s like. What happens next? Why are they doing that? Where is she going? The movie will answer all those questions, okay, if you still have questions, ask AFTER the movie is over and you understand it.

          1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            Oh that I totally agree with! It’s a great skill to have. Give even the most valuable feedback at the wrong time/place/with the wrong tone and no one will respond to it.

            Haha, I am a very “oh no he didn’t!” “now why the HELL are you doing THIS?” movie watcher. I try to tone it down when I’m watching with somebody else vs alone :)

      5. Ethyl*

        But he’s an intern, who usually are not even done with their degrees and have zero job experience in their field. This would be pretty overstepping and rude from a new employee with a solid work history for the reasons mentioned (ask first, don’t assume people are idiots), but for someone who isn’t experienced and who hasn’t even finished their education it’s wildly out of line.

      6. Busy*

        You’re combining two different mindsets into one. You want people to make suggestions. Well thought out suggestions with an understanding of scope and goals and how that change will affect other processes. You do not want people running around demanding changes all the time to 1. stroke their ego or 2. implement changes that only benefit them. This creates actual literal chaos. I don’t know if you ever had to start working in a place who had encouraged a lot of dudes to run around doing what THEY want all the time, but its terrible.

      7. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I’d rather assumed that we are talking about an ingrained process in a large company with many and varied reasons for using the system they have. We are probably not talking about showing people how to use lookup tables in Excel, but rather migrating an entire database from Access to a custom built system. It’s one thing to ask why a process is the way it is but it’s really arrogant to say that it’s unacceptable and you can fix it singlehandedly on your first day.

      8. M*

        I mean, look, when I was a new grad in my first job, I was hired at a charity that taught a particular skill set in underprivileged schools. The charity had very, very few staff with direct experience using that skill set; I was a globally-recognised expert. Day one, I asked them why they were teaching a particular skill in a way that was a good 10 years out of date – politely, but with a pretty firm undercurrent of “that’s something you should stop doing ASAP”.

        Sure, there are cases where interns or new junior staff have insight employees don’t have! But it was OK for me to do it in that case because I *had* the information I needed – I knew I was the expert and knew they were very much amateurs. (Unsurprisingly given they were trying to teach concepts they themselves didn’t know how to use, they were a traincrash in all kinds of ways, and utterly refused to make the many changes they urgently needed to to their training programs, but that’s another story.) Most interns are a) not interning in places where the staff have less experience or training than they do and b) are not actually top-tier experts. That means you *get* the information you need – and you do it professionally and politely – rather than jumping straight to assuming the people training you have no clue what they’re doing. Even when I *knew* they were doing something silly and could easily fix it, I approached it more softly than this intern seems to have done (“so, just how wedded are we to teaching this this way?” was my lead-in, from memory).

        To put it another way, you’re treating this like the whole spectrum is “fades into background” to “takes sensible initiative”. But there’s *miles* to go past “takes sensible initiative”, most commonly in the form of junior staff who see problems with *everything* and therefore are just a constant stream of “but we could do it *my* way” without any of the foundations to understand whether they’re making a useful suggestion. Constantly questioning systems isn’t very useful (even if the questions are the right ones) – the people giving you tasks have work of their own to do, and can’t spend all their time constantly explaining why things are done the way they are. And, for that matter, constantly volunteering to take on higher-level tasks, or creating their own projects is often unhelpful. Even if a task *does* need to be done, an employer isn’t necessarily going to want an intern doing it – they’re not there long term, there may be better trained staff to do it, it may require coordinating across multiple teams’ needs, it may just not be an organisational priority compared to other work. Interns who can’t pick their battles are absolute timesinks for everyone else, and this intern sounds very much like one of those.

    11. irene adler*

      Just wanted to comment: I’m taken aback at the number of narratives here where the intern informs employee(s) that they are “doing it wrong”. After disabusing them of such thoughts, do they normally get their minds straight? Or does this sort of arrogance continue?

      1. mamma mia*

        I’m taken aback that you’re taken aback.

        An intern is presumably being hired because the company thinks they may have something to offer; why would you be surprised if the intern expresses opinions or offers suggestions? There’s a way to offer suggestions that’s not disrespectful. The intern is there to learn, certainly, but that doesn’t mean that they’re arrogant if they think they have a better way of doing things. It’s possible that their way IS better. It’s also possible that it’s not. But you’ll never know if you’re dismissing that outright just because they’re an intern. They certainly don’t need to be “disabused” of their thoughts. If everyone at the company is doing things just because “that’s the way it’s always done”, that company is going to remain stagnant forever.

        1. Mr. Shark*

          I think there are reasonable suggestions by the intern, but in many cases I’ve seen, the intern is suggesting changes that have already been reviewed and determined to not be the best method to get the result. It is good that they are working on problem solving, but sometimes they think that the solution is so obvious and no one else has thought of it, when that solution has been thought of and discarded because it wasn’t the right solution.

          As others have said, it’s better to ask questions rather than jump in and tell people who have been working somewhere for quite a long time and have a lot more experience than you that you can fix everything that they are obviously doing wrong. The intern is there to learn, and yes, at some point they hopefully can contribute and provide some new ideas. But they have to learn the proper way to present those ideas and to understand that they don’t already know everything.

          1. philosophical_conversation*

            100% agree. I’ve had to deal with many interns who would rather show off how much they know as opposed to trying to learning how and why things are done a certain way. Of course there are good interns with new ideas, but more likely than not, an intern isn’t going to be able to come up with an idea that hasn’t already been brought up and discussed (for no reason other than their lack of time in the workplace).

        2. irene adler*

          Ask- don’t presume.
          That’s the take away message I would hope to impart to interns.

          1. irene adler*

            Hit submit too soon.
            We must comply with a host of federal regulations. Had a lab tech who decided such regs were getting in her way and needed to be dispensed with. Her argument was that she could get more work done her way rather than follow the way we’ve been doing things for 20 years. And wasn’t that more important to the bottom line than following some archaic federal regulations?

            I explained that our boss would do actual jail time if she continued to do this. Suggested we pose the question to him.

        4. New ED*

          We do hire interns because we think they have something to offer but that something is almost never ideas or suggestions for how we can improve things but rather ability to do research, data entry, write reports, etc. It’s pretty laughable from my perspective that an intern, or really anyone entry level will be able to provide useful suggestions on how to improve things in an organization. I think people need to watch and learn for several months before they are in a position to offer suggestions.

        5. Jadelyn*

          The problem is that far too many interns come in thinking they know everything there is to know and they just assume they can “fix” everything, without taking the time to learn and understand why the company does things the way they do. It’s grating and arrogant for some kid fresh out of school to try to tell you how to do your job, so people tend to not take it well. I don’t know why you’re surprised at that.

          The thing they need to be “disabused” of is not having ideas in general – it’s thinking that school prepared them for everything they will ever encounter and that they can waltz in anywhere and try to tell experienced professionals how to do their jobs.

          1. Prawn to be wild*

            “it’s thinking that school prepared them for everything they will ever encounter and that they can waltz in anywhere and try to tell experienced professionals how to do their jobs.”

            Exactly this.

            1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

              Especially learning from academics who may never have worked in industry in their lives. Academics I worked with may have been well connected with industry, but as tenured professors in a completely different kind of work setting, they could give out some pretty bad advice to their department darlings on how to get ahead in the for-profit, competitive business world.

          2. Bunny*

            This is true but it’s also important to ask yourself why your company is doing things the way it is. I switched industries semi-recently, I had a lot of transferable skills but it’s apples to oranges overall.

            Well, after I asked some questions with a really supportive boss, not only did a lot of the processes within my (very small) department change significantly, while being told it has never run as smoothly as it has in years, if ever, there were some much larger changes because when people saw that my suggestions were being seriously considered, they had some great suggestions of their own.

            Fresh eyes and new ideas can be very important, I get that it can come off as arrogance, sometimes a lot of things are just done that way because they were just done that way. Like one significant change started with asking another department with “Is it possible to do X with X?” with the answer being “Oh, yeah, we have been doing that for YEARS, it’s fabulous, we’ve always wondered why your department does X the way it does but we didn’t want to get involved.”

        6. smoke tree*

          I think interns often have to learn the difference between coursework, where their input is part of the process and considered innately valuable, and professional work, where their input is only valuable if it’s relevant to the context and genuinely helpful. An important lesson to learn as an intern is how to sit back, observe, ask questions and do some independent research before offering up an opinion. Hopefully most of them figure this out after being corrected.

          1. Federal Middle Manager*

            This. Also, a lot of schoolwork involves thought experiments along the lines of designing a system from scratch, have unlimited resources for the newest/best practices, unlimited training time/budgets, etc.

            Real work environments are much more complex systems. Overlapping jobs have slightly different priorities. People learn and retain information differently. Some things might work great if the best person does them but need to be simplified so that multiple people can cover leave and vacation. Managers have different communication styles. THIS is what you really need to learn and understand transitioning from school to an internship or first job, and rarely does knowing the newest/best software have anything to do with it.

      2. Frinkfrink*

        My partner, a programmer at a university, works with student workers on occasion and their biggest complaint is that the students want to program using the newest and shiniest methods without (a) stopping to consider if said method was going to be around long-term or if it was going to be superseded by something else new and shiny in the near future (spoiler: it almost always is), or (b) not think about whether anyone else in the department (who was going to have to maintain said project long-term), would know how to program said new and shiny method.

        When my partner was hired, they had to deal with the fallout of trying to maintain a very large project (think one that was meant to be used by nearly everyone on campus several times a day) being programmed with methods that none of the staff members knew, and which fell out of favor a couple of years later. Why was a student coding it? Because this is academia, and student workers do a lot of grunt work.

        Recently another department on campus attempted to present my partner’s department with a project that had been coded by students as a class project, and asked them to maintain it. I am told the head of the department looked at it, saw how it was written, and sent it back with a terse “You made your bed, now lie in it” note.

        1. Frinkfrink*

          I lost the question while writing that out: nope, the arrogance continued with this particular student. The closest my partner came to losing it at work happened when they told the student to do something one way, the student came back with, “no, I thought about it, and I’m gong to do it this other way,” and after being told again “no, this isn’t up for debate,” the student said they’d emailed someone they knew, who had nothing to do with this job, and were waiting for them to say whether or not it was a good idea. My partner took a walk outside the building, then composed a careful email to the department head explaining what happened instead of yelling at the kid, but it was touch and go there for a while.

          Said student, after graduating, worked for a while at a small startup, then came back to apply for a job in the department. The head decided the student was owed a personal conversation about the job (and why the student was not in the running–basically the head wanted the student to have several more years real-world experience), and in that conversation the student was told the salary, average for this particular position in academia and good given we’re in a low cost of living area, somewhere in the $60-70K range, and the student literally said “Are you kidding? I’ve gotta eat!”

          1. Amethystmoon*

            I have to wonder what the intern was eating that he thought that wasn’t good. Was he going out every single night? I don’t make anywhere near $60k and I eat a lot of brown rice/quinoa, beans, frozen veggies, and canned tuna on a regular basis. Of course, I have student loans also. The place I live in isn’t a high cost of living area, but rent does increase every year, so I always have to give up something. But one would assume an intern would also have student loans.

      3. The New Wanderer*

        The “I know better” attitude continues for some, definitely. This month I had someone join a team that I advise – someone who has been with the company for a while and has specialized skills, but has not dealt with the bigger picture of the project that I’m in charge of and his team is assisting on. Since the week he started he has been extremely vocal in every meeting about how “easy” it is to solve an incredibly complex problem through easily-debunked suggestions, but he tries to frame any attempt to course-correct him as “negativity.” It’s more problematic than an intern spouting off because this guy has some cred built up and he’s saying things people want to hear (like who doesn’t want to hear that a challenging problem isn’t actually as bad as it looks?), but he still hasn’t learned to gather information FIRST before assuming he has all the answers.

        Suggestions and questions by anyone should be welcomed. Assertions by someone who literally just started that presume they know everything about why a decision was made and why it’s wrong and they can fix it… is just arrogance.

    12. Left a Good Job in the City*

      I used to work at a City dept. The only time we had interns in our dept were children of City bigwigs in other depts. I was an admin, so it was up to me to assign work to ours.

      – Every time I asked her to put put files back in the filing cabinet, she would come over and ask if “Mary Anderson” gets filed under M or A.

      – When she made mistakes, I’d tell her she had to re-do them and she would ask if she *really* had to, for example I had her do a mailing for official notices going out to City residents. She fed about 25 envelopes into the printer incorrectly so our logo was in the bottom righthand corner. Or she would fax something to the wrong number. No big deal, people make mistakes, but they needed to be corrected.

    13. Booksalot*

      A lot of our interns got voluntold to run Bring Your Kids to Work Day, and 99.9% of those interns were women. I feel badly for them. This is NOT what they signed up for.

    14. Sunflower*

      Truthfully, it’s because in school you’re taught to problem solve and fix problems and it’s very jarring to go into the real world and discover how often it’s very backwards at places. I don’t ever recall being taught in school that ‘well sometimes companies have to do things in X way because it’s always been done and higher-up is stubborn and it doesn’t matter if someone has a better idea.’

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        Also, in school it’s rare that students ever really are expected to contribute to something that’s in “long term maintenance mode”. If students are asked to contribute to a project at a school, it’s almost always something that has the entire arc of the project, from start to finish, within a single class or year. They’re not used to working on things that started before they got there and will continue after they leave. If they are asked to work on something “ongoing” it’s something like the school paper or the prom committee, where you’re working on this year’s version of thing, which is distinct from last year’s and next year’s so it’s reasonable to jump in and make changes. I can’t think of a time in school where I was really asked to just do the next bit on a large, ongoing task. My summer jobs in high school were similar – I always volunteered or worked at some kind of summer science program for kids (several different ones), so each summer would be its own distinct thing that we were all starting at once.

        I remember it feeling deeply weird when I first took a regular office job and realized that this thing didn’t work that way and would just…keep going with or without me, and had been going long before I got there, rather than getting there just as thing were starting up for a new term. I’m sure on some level I’d noticed that my parents had jobs that weren’t broken into semesters like school, but it wasn’t really something I’d given any thought to as a kid.

        I can see why interns, who are used to always being in on the beginning of new, short-term projects in school, don’t see any reason not to re-work everything and use all new tools. After all, that’s pretty common for school projects. The different timescale and maintenance needs might be something worth explicitly pointing out to interns during orientation.

        2. Amethystmoon*

          That and also it’s worth mentioning that companies really like people with attention to detail, and checking over your own work for mistakes before someone else does, then actually fixing said mistakes, are the kind of employees that companies generally want.

        4. Owler*

          I agree with TDMSunday. They way that school projects differ from a job in terms duration is never really expressly covered in school, and the fact that one might be jumping into a work project that started before your tenure and is expected to last beyond it is really important. Important, not only for interns but also consultants.

    15. Admin of Sys*

      I think my favorite was the intern that came into our office and informed us he wanted to rewrite the university’s ERP system because it wasn’t working very well. He was absolutely correct that it was very broken, but the idea that he, with his undergrad in programming, was going to write a replacement for peoplesoft was…a little overambitious.

      1. Auntie Social*

        It’s the arrogance. It’s one thing to have learned the existing system and to memo your boss “I know that staff says this is a hassle, would XY work as a shortcut?” and another to present like “I’m here! I know nothing about your organization but put me in charge!”

    16. Delta Delta*

      Right on! I have a gumption-y summer intern story. A law firm where I worked for a while had summer interns. I got a case that needed certain information before we could move forward. I needed phone calls to Alice, Betty, and Charles to get corresponding pieces of information. Once those things were together, we could present information to the other side to get appropriate relief. This seemed tailor-made for the intern. He could make the calls, record the information and compile it into the appropriate format. An easy-sounding project but necessary due to specific legal issues. Should take 1-2 hours. (I could do it in less, but I’m accounting for intern learning time)

      Intern looked squarely at me and said, “yeah, I’m not going to do this. I’m really at my best when I get to argue in court.” I told the intern coordinator about this, and that I wasn’t giving this joker any projects all summer.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        “I’m really at my best when I get to argue in court.”

        Well then, how lucky you are to get such a perfect opportunity for you to improve your skills in other areas!

      2. Stephanie*

        I hope he got one of those “do nothing but argue in court as a first year associate” jobs that are so very plentiful.

      3. smoke tree*

        For someone so gifted, he did not fully showcase his powers of persuasion with this strategy.

    17. Bananatiel*

      I once supervised an intern that did not take direction– at all, really. And frankly, I got smarmy vibes from him and no one else saw it so I spent a lot of time exasperated by the whole situation. It was so bad that sometimes I caught him working on things he wasn’t assigned. I was convinced for a long time I was the problem and tried all sorts of different tactics, tones, phrases to deliver feedback and corrections and it all ended in me making the necessary changes on his work. After a whole year and a couple of professional development classes in leadership later, I finally realized it might not have been me (after all, I had no issues with our four other interns).

      I would *love* to have fired him except for that he had an incredible instinct for charming (and I mean that literally) the executive team above me so they couldn’t fathom why I had issues with him. I’m a little convinced my boss, at least twenty years older than the intern, had a bit of a crush on him because he’d occasionally drop mildly inappropriate compliments about her appearance. I’d regularly present her with clear examples of issues I was having with him and she’d defend him working on things he hadn’t been assigned by saying she thought he’d do better at the task than another intern anyway!

      I was hoping he’d move on to another internship but he stuck around for three years. Why leave when you’ve got it made? I actually left the job before he graduated. As you can imagine, my issues included feeling like I was not being heard, ha. I’m thankfully in a much better place now!

      3. Who Plays Backgammon?*

        “What a lovely dress you’re wearing, Mrs. Cleaver.” If anybody remembers Eddie Haskell–nothing ever dies on cable.

    18. Rainy*

      We had an intern be mysteriously fired a few weeks into a year-long professional internship a few years ago.

      No one but the 3 intern program supervisors know why. I’ve been dying of curiosity ever since.

    19. Another Sara*

      About 10 years into my career, another team had an intern who attached himself to me and regularly tried to get me to do his work for him. I wasn’t on the team he belonged to, but I sat across the aisle from him and happened to be an expert on his team’s work because I had previously worked on that team.

      He would sneak up to my cube multiple times a day and hover silently in my blind spot until I noticed him. I kept asking him to knock or approach from the other direction or SOMETHING, but he wouldn’t do it. I eventually just started completely ignoring him until he spoke, at which point I would react as if he had just walked up (“Oh, hi Intern! What’s up?”). Once, he asked me how to print something from a particular program we used. I told him how to do it, and he said, “Can you just print it for me?” I said, encouragingly, “No, but you can do it! I believe in you!” and stared at him until he got uncomfortable and went away.

      Another time, he asked me if I had any siblings. I told him I had a younger brother. He said, “Oh, so your parents kept trying until they got the child they wanted?” I just said, “Wow,” and stared at him until he got uncomfortable and mumbled, “Just kidding…” I kept staring at him until he went away.

      1. LKW*

        As soon as he found out you were the older sibling he should have realized none of his nonsense was going to work.

        1. cmcinnyc*

          Truly. My brothers are twice my size but I am the boss of them, and they know and resent it.

          1. Clisby*

            Hah! My sister and I are the eldest of 6 kids. Our 4 brothers said I was the rulemaker and she was the enforcer. Hey, we did our future sisters-in-law a favor; we squelched any notion of male superiority.

  3. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

    So at the beginning of the year I had some serious feedback about being more approachable to my team. I took it on board and according to all my manager and coach I have developed massively. I felt like everything was going great. However, I had some feedback yesterday where two in my team when to my line manager in tears saying that they are struggling to build a relationship with me and that they find I can be unapproachable. Neither had said anything to me and apparently were too scared.

    Honestly I was floored, as not only have I been working so hard at being approachable, but I have been flexible and supportive of their respective personal issues. I think part of the issue is that my manager is super chatty, and will engage for hours in personal chat, so are the majority of the team. Whereas I can’t talk and work at the same time, if I do one it means I can’t do the other. Also (and this sound so dull) I like working more than chatting, and our team chats a lot. I mean for hours a day – allegedly while still working but I’m sceptical of how productive they are when chatting.

    Basically I’m not sure what else I can do to come across as more approachable – other than ignoring my work to chat with everyone? Does anyone have any foolproof ‘How to be approachable’ suggestions?

    At this point I am wondering if it is a culture/team fit issue – that I want to work rather than chat, and they want to chat rather than work.

    1. MuseumChick*

      Oh this is hard. We have a super chatty lady at my work and I find myself avoid interactions with her, or, when they do happen keeping my answers short because otherwise she could go on for 45 minutes easily. I can tell she thinks I’m a little off putting but I just can’t be as chatty as she wants to be.

      I think you are right that this is a culture issue. If you haven’t already, you could try a (in your mind) “scheduled” check in. You pick a time of day to ask your team things like “How are your dogs? Do you have any more cute photos? I love those!” Or, “How’d your son’s volleyball game go this weekend?”

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      The fact that your reports went to your line manager in tears suggests that something is really off — either your manner at work, or the strength of their emotional response to a minor unpleasantness. What is your read on these folks in general, beyond their chattiness?

      1. animaniactoo*

        Yes, that was my other question. In tears because they’ve “tried to build a relationship with you” and can’t? My first thought was to be curious whether that was a you or them problem, in terms of the level of response.

        IIRC, your managers are also the ones who want you to just keep being supportive of Fergus who can’t stay organized/do his job and not hold him to any accountability?

        Take a step back and think about whether your manager might not have dug into this well enough themselves.

        1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

          You do indeed! I think that on the whole my manager can sometimes cross the boundary of being friends with her staff. However, not with me as I do try and keep some distance.

          She did tell me to not worry about it for the moment while she digs into it, and I have no actions for the moment. Although part of me does wonder if my manager has perhaps not dealt with this correctly, as she has brought it to me without fully seeing if there is an issue.

          1. animaniactoo*

            Nah, you should know it’s happened so that you can also be on the lookout for anything, since you’re on the front lines there.

            Do think about things you can adjust (I mentioned a couple below, others seem to be making similar suggestions), but don’t go whole hog until you know more. Just take it on board that it’s there and may need some action from you to resolve down the line, and keep an eye out so you can do your own assessment of what effort you are putting into being accessible and whether others on the team seem to be coming to you without issue (as far as you can tell).

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          This 100% sounds like they are bullying you. “Oh my boss is JUST SO MEAN, I don’t know what I can do, I’ve tried SO HARD *sob* to have a good relationship with them (and I’ll leave out all of the nasty stuff I do to them when Grandboss isn’t looking)”

          1. Alice*

            What nasty stuff are they doing when Grandboss isn’t looking? OP said they chat a lot. That might not be efficient, but I don’t see how it’s nasty or bullying.

      2. Washi*

        Yeah, taking the OP at her word, tears seems very excessive for a manager who, at worst, sounds no-nonsense and down to business. Do they tend to be teary in general?

        If I were the OP and really had no idea what was prompting this, I think I would want my manager to gather a little more information. What specifically is the OP doing that is unapproachable? What would they like to see her doing?

      3. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        Well they both have some fairly major personal issues happening at the moment (as do I tbh). However, I’ve been supportive of them, and I don’t feel it’s been appropriate to tell them about my issues.

        My manager did ask them what they had been doing themselves to try and build a relationship, and they didn’t have great answers. They’re both really young so I don’t know if they realise it takes two people to make it work??

        1. LKW*

          This is going to sound like an odd question but how many years older are you? Because if you’re only a few years older, they’re likely looking for a more peer-based relationship. Whereas with more senior members of staff, they’re looking for more parental based relationships (aka “MOOOOOM! RDR isn’t being nice to me!!!”)

          Here’s what I do: At the beginning of every meeting, I say a ridiculously cheery hello. I ask everyone how they are – not individually but then I’ll say something about the weather, or a bird outside of my window or a picture I received of my nephew. I let the chat go for about 6 minutes because with my current client – that’s they typical meeting overrun time and by that point everyone is on the call. Other times I’ll ask people about their kids or pull some random fact about their lives out of my brain “Oh, is your wife done with the school year yet?”

          Then at the 6 minute mark I say “OK – let’s get this meeting started!”

          I’m on roughly 8 – 12 calls per day so if I do this for every meeting, it’s somewhere between 1 – 2 hours of my time, and I don’t do it for every meeting. But it gives everyone a false sense of how kind and outgoing I am when in reality I could walk away from all of them and not miss them for a moment.

          Sometimes you have to fake it.

          1. Name (Required)*

            Yup! My boss and I are both introverts, so we even think up smalltalk and write it into our version of the agenda to ask person about their sick dog or kid’s graduation, etc. It helps me a lot to plan both the time and the things that they’ll likely feel good talking about.

    3. Little Pig*

      Overall, I’m inclined to agree that this is probably a culture issue. You really shouldn’t be expected to chat all day long. In order to make it work, can you dedicate a short period time to high-quality chatting every day? First thing in the morning, before you turn on your computer, ask how people are doing, did they catch the game, etc. Maybe repeat after lunch. That should help you build some stronger social relationships with the team without sacrificing too much work time.

      The only thing that gives me pause is that your team members went to your line manager in tears?!? Having an unapproachable boss or team member can be uncomfortable, but not worth CRYING over. Something is off there. Are these two employees incredibly immature? If so, there might not be very much that you can do about it, imo. Kids will be kids. If they’re generally reasonable people, maybe there’s some truth in what they’re saying? At least, there’s something there that you’re missing. Is it that they need your input on something work-related and can’t get you to weigh in, and it’s affecting their ability to do their jobs? Or something? Could you have a mediated conversation through your line manager or HR to understand their concerns?

      1. MuseumChick*

        I once worked with a woman who would cry over literally anything. Have a stomach? Cry. Neighbor didn’t say good morning to her? Cry. Someone (me) resigned? Cry.

        I think, given that the OP says that her manager and coach both see significant progress in her indicates this may be a case of a clique-y work place when the other employee use work as social time.

        1. Prawn to be wild*

          “given that the OP says that her manager and coach both see significant progress in her“

          Sure, but.. they aren’t managed by her, and this is feedback from the people who are.

          1. tangerineRose*

            I’s feedback from people who are crying. Are they literally afraid to talk to their manager?

              1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

                Way “yeah!” on that. Unless something really ugly happened, which I’d think RDR would at least have some inkling of, the idea of multiple people going up the chain “in tears” sounds fishy. And if RDR is that bad, it’s not just a matter of being unapproachable but severely problematic in a way that the higher-ups would know about and deal with.

                “Unapproachable” can be a mushy criticism anyway. TBH, it’s the kind of crap term my boss pulls out of her hat when she wants to criticize me but doesn’t have anything specific. She usually uses it when she’d loaded me down with work that keeps me shoulder to the wheel and the sales reps are bent out of shape because I’m not holding their hands or doing things for them that they are supposed to do for themselves (like call IT when their laptops aren’t working).

        2. Frustrated Today*

          Yeah, I manage someone like this now. I’ve never experienced anything like it and it’s frustrating. It doesn’t make me uncomfortable or feel awkward the way it does some others here. The first time it happened in front of me I offered tissues. Now I just sit and wait for it to be over, and usually just ignore it completely. She admits that she cries very easily. It’s just the way she is. Although I’m seeing some improvement, which is nice. In a one-on-one meeting last week I could tell she was about to cry, but she held it together.

          Anyway, based on the age of these two people, it seems like a combination of not knowing how the manager-employee relationship works and maybe feeling hurt that OP doesn’t treat them like a friend.

      2. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        One of them is near enough, she turns 18 next month, the other is 21. (I probably should have mentioned that)!

        I have been trying to set aside some chat time with them, but sometimes my work requires focus at that time and I can’t break from it. Maybe I need to be more clear and say I’d love to chat, but right now I’m working on X task?

        1. Little Pig*

          Oof, yeah, it if they’re that young, they probably have no idea what constitutes a professional relationship, or how it differs from a friendship. This sounds like a conversation that would be best had by your manager.

          You don’t have to chat at the same time every day then, but just at A time. Whenever is convenient for you. I think it’s good to be clear like you suggested, but people like this will take it as an insult if you don’t pitch it exactly right. Say you’re busy in a neutral, distracted voice, and their feelings will be hurt. Say it with a warm smile and then follow up with them a little later when you are more free, and I think it could go over better.

          For the record, I’m really sorry that you have to bend over backwards to accommodate their feelings. I sincerely hope your manager has your back on this one. It sounds like you’re behaving like a perfectly reasonable professional adult, and it would be good for them to learn to recognize that.

        2. I'm A Little Teapot*

          If they’re 18 and 21 years old, honestly, they probably simply don’t know how work is supposed to work. They’re may feel like they’re supposed to be best friends with you, and since they’re not they think they’re messing up. Someone needs to have a talk with them about how it’s supposed to be, and they need to adjust.

          1. Pilcrow*

            This tracks. I remember in my high school days some people were really black and white regarding peer relationships. It was either friends or hatred with nothing in between. Neutrality seemed an utterly foreign concept.

        3. BethDH*

          At that age, I remember thinking that a boss being friendly or not was a direct sign of how well I was doing the job. The kinds of jobs I’d had up till then had been outdoor labor and kitchen work, which were both really chatty environments, so I’m sure that had an effect too. That doesn’t help you much, though maybe if you feel like it would help you could spell some of this out to them a little more (“I need to get some work done and I’m someone who really can’t chat and work at the same time” or something like that?). And if they’re not getting regular performance checkins, that might help as well — I would have been so insecure in my first job if I’d had to wait a full year for any sort of comments on my performance.

        4. I Go OnAnonAnonAnon*

          Yes, this would help! Giving them context and perhaps suggesting an alternate time when you can check back in with them might alleviate your “unapproachable”ness in their minds. Worth a try!

        5. Ethyl*

          Ooooh….. The age thing might be really key, especially if they also don’t have great work-personal life boundaries (sounds like they don’t). Is this typical for your field, to have actual teenagers working with you?

          1. Redundant department of redundancy*

            It is, as we take on apprentices! They can be from 16-30 but we tend to get the younger end of them.

            I do think I might need to be clear to them that I can’t do both at the same time.
            I do give them a lot of positive feedback on their work, and have 1:1s every two weeks. I might need to introduce some daily check ins with them? One of them specifically said they were upset I hadn’t gone to see them on the reception desk all day (when I’d had nearly back to back meetings) and had called them???

            I think they might just need more reassurance?

            1. Ethyl*

              I don’t think they need more reassurance, I think they need a bit of a lesson in workplace norms. It’s not common or expected for a boss to take time to *just* visit with an employee. I think the right way forward is to tease out what are the issues you’ve already been working on about being approachable and what’s j realistic on their part in terms of being friends with their boss.

            2. Aquawoman*

              I think that complaint is cuckoo. Unless it was their first day back after surgery or something.

            3. Ron McDon*

              My colleague on the reception desk gets annoyed with our line manager because she doesn’t pop in to see her and check in, it makes her feel that line manager doesn’t care about what she’s doing and how her day is going.

              Our line manager does only work two days a week (and has never made the effort to find out what each person on her team does or have any check-ins!) so in my opinion you’re doing a lot better than my line manager!

              However, I do think it’s important to pop out to reception at least once a day just to check all is ok and say hello, you’d probably find that makes all the difference to how they perceive you if you make time to do this. It doesn’t have to be a big thing, just popping by to say ‘how are you, is everything ok’ makes a big difference if you’re feeling overlooked.

              1. Frustrated Today*

                I have to say, this is how I felt at my last job. My manager tended to check in much more often with the other managers that reported to him. I like to think it was maybe because they were all long-timers and I wasn’t and he had much more of a connection with them. Or the other department he managed just needed more input from him. Or even that he didn’t feel the need to check in as often since I had it under control most of the time. But it still made me feel a bit overlooked when he would go down the hall past my office with just a quick hello to me and then stop to visit with another manager of his down the hall. Then I wouldn’t see him for a few days.

                I’m far from being college-aged, but I definitely value my manager checking in a few days a week to see how it’s going, preferably more often. I don’t mean she needs to stop by and chat for a half hour. Just a quick, “hey, how’s it going? Need me for anything?” Five minutes.

            4. LGC*

              …yeah, that checks out.

              The direct issue sounds like they think that your inability to be as attentive as they want is a reflection on them (or your view of them). So…make it clear to them! Not that they’re doing anything wrong, but that you often have lots of meetings and can’t be there as much as they might want. And this is actually fine – sometimes you might not be able to check in, but that doesn’t mean you hate them forever.

              It also sounds like you work in a job training program, so this is doubly important. What if they do this in a less supportive environment?

            5. Who Plays Backgammon?*

              They need to grow up.

              Couple of questions:
              Have you had issues like this before with very young/very new employees?
              Are these two friends, maybe outside of work as well?

              I’m wondering if they’re your basic 2 peas in a pod, navigating the work world for the first time and not knowing what to expect of a manager or team lead, and not knowing what’s expected of them. If this is the first time your higher-ups have had to deal with teary young’uns, it sounds like you could be getting scapegoated because the higher-ups are uncomfortable with the situation.

        6. Washi*

          I think that’s a good idea!

          But also, have you asked your manager if there’s anything she thinks you should do differently? I think that if you’re generally warm and professional and your manager is satisfied, you don’t need to bend over backward to change every interaction. It might be good for your reports to learn what a warm but not overly chatty professional relationship looks lie.

        7. Frankie*

          Yeah, at that age they don’t have their norms set yet (others are saying this) but wanted to add they may be working from the familiar point of “high school teacher” when they’re figuring out how to interact with you. If I squint I could see that making them get all worked up if you’re not super gregarious with them like all their best high school teachers were.

      3. Amethystmoon*

        I agree that something is definitely off. Crying should only be reserved for bosses who routinely lose their temper at subordinates. Unless both employees had highly abusive childhoods or something, it shouldn’t be the case.

        That being said, is this one of those places where people routinely stay very late to get work done, or come in on the weekends, because they couldn’t get it done during the week because they were too busy chatting with others?

    4. Alice*

      Kudos for thinking about how you can make it work better.
      I must say that if I worked for you, and if I perceived (whether it’s correct or incorrect doesn’t matter) that you dislike it when people talk to you, I would find it hard to build a relationship.
      As a manager, building relationships with your team IS working.

      1. Madame Tussaud*

        I didn’t get the impression that the OP doesn’t like people talking to her, but rather she doesn’t like overly long chat sessions. I don’t mind a 10 minute or so catch up with someone, but honestly, anything longer than that, especially if it’s multiple times a day, seems excessive. As a manager, yes, it’s her job to build relationships with her team, but I’m sure she’s got other duties she’s got to keep up on. The main caveat being that the talking is purely social in nature, vs. work-related; or even a personal issue that requires a discussion with the manager.

        1. Alice*

          Well, OP did say “I want to work rather than chat, and they want to chat rather than work.” If that message is coming through to the reports all the time, perhaps with something as minor as body language or tone of voice, the reports are not going to feel like OP is approachable.
          But since OP’s manager and coach have been working on this with her, I expect that OP can get some really tailored feedback from them. Good luck!

    5. animaniactoo*

      It does sound like they’re excessively chatty and that maybe you need to address some of that. On the flip side, SOME chat is absolutely social grease that makes people approachable, so I would focus on that portion first. Can you make a point of joining the chat or creating a chat break for yourself once every other day or so? Think about 15 to 20 minutes or so – enough to have seriously participated, but not so much that you’re giving the impression that constant chat is a-ok in your book?

      Other things you can do – what’s your tone when people do come to you? What about when you’re coming to them? If you’re always firm/serious, you can give off the impression that you’re not approachable that way and that’s something you can address fairly easily. Just by being willing to be a little lighter/warmer. Be sure that you’re doing the kinds of things like somebody is late due to traffic and you don’t just say “Okay”, you say “Yeah, it seems to be a mess out there today. Sorry you got stuck in it.” – extend those notes to acknowledge them as humans and it will go far.

      2. Samwise*

        Or OP thinks they are excessively chatty but perhaps they are not — OP dislikes chatting, so it may not take much to feel excessive. Are they really and truly chatting all day non stop?

        Also, OP, if you’re taking the view that EITHER one’s chatting OR one’s working— that’s going to come across to your team; to me, it sounds condescending. It is in fact possible to work and talk at the same time, depending on the task. (And I’m not a chatter, it drives me bonkers if it goes on too long — but I recognize that some of my colleagues are chatty and it doesn’t mean they’re not working.)

    6. The Phleb*

      I once had a supervisor who was really a great woman…but came across as very business like and stern. She realized and was working on it but it was tough going. One thing I did tell her…when someone called out sick, she would often just say, “ok. Thank you.” And then hang up! I told her…you really, really need to add a, “hope you’re feeling better!” to it in order for it to be personable. I know she was already thinking ahead to coverage and how can I fix this and I wonder how long this employee will be out, etc, but you have to observe the niceties. It sounds like you ARE trying but perhaps a few minutes of ‘extra’ chatter here and there, just something personal, will help.

      1. Redundant Department of Redundancy*

        See it’s bits like this which I’m aware of, and I am always sympathetic when people call in. I’ve even had it noted by my line manager that I’m more sympathetic than her when staff call in.

        Maybe what I think of as ‘extra’ chatter is just normal/low to others?

        1. EtherIther*

          It sounds like that could be the case! It’s impossible for us to know from afar, though. At the least, is there any reason to not take a break from work and chat more, since it sounds like that would be acceptable to both your manager and please your employees? You could even schedule it so you remember. I’ve worked a lot of places (actually most places I’ve worked) where it would be out of place to not stop and chat occasionally, and it sounds like you might be in one of them.

          To add my own perspective – I don’t see “extra” chatter as a thing, as long as everyone is getting their work done! And it sounds like your team might feel this way as well? Lots of social people aren’t trying to avoid chatter, and there isn’t anything wrong with that if they’re working.

          But at the same time, the crying is odd.. and kinda shows it could all be on their end, because I can’t imagine crying because of something like this.

      2. DivineMissL*

        My boss (VP of the company) was a lot like The Phleb’s. He was very quiet and didn’t speak to anyone in the hallway, which made people feel like he was either annoyed or didn’t like them. As I got to know him, I knew that he was a very sweet guy who was very shy and just didn’t know what to say to people. I had to explain to him that because he was the VP, they were already a little wary of him, so it was important to do basic things like make eye contact, say hello, smile, etc. to put them at ease. He really did make an effort to be friendlier and warmer, even though it wasn’t in his comfort zone; and it did help his working relationships with the staff.

    7. T. Boone Pickens*

      Do you feel there would be any value in sitting down with your team and getting a better understanding on how each of you communicate? I’ve used the DiSC assessment in the past with quite a bit of success to help me understand what folks need in terms of communication while also explaining what I need to do my job successfully. I feel for you as this is a really tricky thing to navigate.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        Oh, I just saw your coworkers are 18 and 21. Disregard my advice, they’re too young to understand usual business norms.

    8. Public Sector Manager*

      I’ve got some members of my team like this. When they bring up the issue of “being approachable,” they have this fiction in mind that I need to be their friend (nope!), and that they should be able to discuss anything with me, i.e. they want to overshare, usually in regard to personal issues. It’s usually done by attorneys on my team who are fresh out of law school.

      The good thing for me has been that my boss will step in to let them know that it’s not my role to be their friend and that they can share any business issues with me. Unfortunately, it sounds like your bosses aren’t doing that for you.

      Here are two things I’ve done: (1) schedule time on my calendar for meeting with my team members; and (2) watch my habits. On (1), I just schedule a 15 minute block of time on my calendar, usually described as “face time.” When starts to become routine when it’s part of my routine. As for (2), I had a couple of team members let me know that I had a habit that when I had something important to discuss, I always had a seat in the other person’s office but if I was just chatting, I tended to stand. So the times I sat down to chat, it freaked people out because they thought something important was going down. It might be useful to take stock of your habits and see if there are any patterns that might be contributing to the issues you’re having.

      And best of luck. Being a manager has been one of the hardest but most rewarding things I’ve ever done. It’s so much harder than people think. Great job on making changes on being approachable with your team. That too is much harder than people think!

      1. RandomU...*

        The sitting thing vs. standing reminded me of something that I had to break myself of. I’ll share it in case anyone else is in the same position.

        I managed a remote team. I realized one day that I used IM or email for the normal work stuff, but I’d call when there was something I needed to coach someone on something or course correct. It dawned on me that I was perpetuation the ‘call of doom’ syndrome and my team was going to start dreading talking to me.

        So I started making a deliberate effort to start calling for some of the small stuff. I noticed less apprehension when I would call to talk to team members.

        Yes, being a manager is hard (also fun), so many things you don’t realize will make an impression on employees!

    9. Ms. FS*

      My approach to this issue would be to use my one on one check ins with each of my team members and state that I had gotten some feedback about this and wanted to touch base with that particular person about how best to ensure they feel supported and comfortable to get what they need from me as their manager. Then I would say I’m working on this but obviously it can be different from person to person what it feels like to ‘be approachable’ and so wanted to know what you, as a person, needs to feel supported. Anytime I get feedback about my performance or something that I’m working on, I like to tell me staff and let them know I am open to hearing their thoughts on how I can improve according to their style (within reason of course).

      Also, about the chatting, I would also tell each of your team members about how you just aren’t much of a chatter, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t feel comfortable checking in. I think if you explain that your personality is X, but you have open door policy.

    10. Fortitude Jones*

      It sounds like a culture fit issue to be honest. If everyone around you values talking all day and making those personal connections and you just don’t, that’s okay – you’re just out of sync with the rest of the group. I’m not saying you should give up and stop working on being more “approachable” (whatever the hell that means in this context), but maybe you just need to have a team meeting where you address their concerns and let them know that you value their hard work and you will continue to make efforts to socialize, but that if you don’t chat with them for hours at a time, it doesn’t mean you have an issue with them – you have X on your plate and need to focus.

      Maybe you can do once a month team lunches or something if this is something you want to work on? Hopefully, if your team sees you in a more relaxed environment they’ll get it that you have no issues with them, you just work hard when you’re at work (honestly, why do people not get this? Work is for work!).

    11. Scarlet*

      Aw :( What about a team-building challenge? Or happy hour? That way they could get to know you on a personal level and realize that you’re not unapproachable, you’re just not super chatty!

    12. Policy Wonk*

      Do you mostly communicate with them by e-mail or in writing? It could be that your tone in your written messages, while sounding matter-of-fact to you, comes across to them as harsh, making them afraid to approach you. Others have offered good suggestions. In addition I’d suggest inviting them individually for coffee or something. This would be your normal one-on-one, in a less formal setting, with a little chit chat thrown in.

    13. Lilysparrow*

      Based on what you said about their ages and the kind of complaints they had, maybe you can look at these chats as a kind of “professional development” or coaching time, that needs to be built into your work schedule as part of managing well.

      By deliberately taking time to engage with them in a low-intensity way, you can use these opportunities to model appropriate warm-but-professional connections. And steer them away from oversharing or unproductive hours (hours?!?!) of socializing, and toward the types of support a manager can & should offer (like flexible scheduling, access to company resources or EAP, that kind of thing).

    14. Anoncorporate*

      Based on what you wrote, it sounds like a culture issue. And breaking down in tears over just “not being approachable” sounds veeeery off to me. Like, that’s not a normal reaction. Idk what your line of work is, but in my business casual corporate job, it’s rare to visibly cry, and would only happen if something really egregious happened (like being yelled at.) Also, it does sound like you are someone who is pleasant but, you know, prefers to spend the majority of your time doing your job, like you’re supposed to? It all sounds weird to me.

    15. fhqwhgads*

      It’s not completely clear to me how this went down. What I’m wondering is: did the people who complained give specific examples to your manager? And did your manager give you specific examples of what you did that made them so uncomfortable and what you could be doing instead? “Be more approachable” is a very vague mandate, and clearly youthink you’ve made strides in being more approachable. So I think this really boils down to: what are you doing that’s giving this impression and is it reasonable that it gives that impression? IE would most people find it off-putting? We need to figure out if this is a them problem or a you problem. I can’t tell from your description. That’s not a criticism of you, by the way, I understand why you might not want to give specifics on the internet, but my point is if there were no specifics at all, you’re stuck. I do not think this should boil down to “be more chatty”. It should be fine for you to want to be more focused on work and not on chat. You should be approachable about work things. Requiring you to socially chat more is a ridiculous workrequirement for most jobs so I hope that’s not what this is about.
      It’s good your manager takes this seriously, but it’s bad if manager is doing it with no examples of the behavior you need to change. If it’s a situation of taking their word for it that you’re not apporachable, you can’t win here because the manager hasn’t evaluated if what you’re doing is OK and they need to adjust their expectations or if what you’re doing would be off-putting to most reasonable people. If you have concrete examples of things you’re doing that make people feel bad, then you should have concrete methods for changing that.

    16. Teal*

      But what if your company would prefer you to talk, rather than work? Managing is partially about talking, so your strong divide between talking and work may not be correct for this position. Especially since your boss is choosing to spend their time talking.

  4. Kyubey*

    So I just started job searching, and not sure how long it will take to actually find a new job.
    I have a vacation planned for the 2nd week of August, it’s still over a month away but I’m not sure of the best approach, would it be better to give my notice and quit in July before the vacation? Or risk quitting within a month after taking it?

    If I don’t get an offer within a month, I’m not sure how the company will feel about me taking pto and then possibly leaving a few weeks after. (They already approved my time off for that week, I can still cancel, but is it worth it to cancel the trip?)

    Should I wait to job search until after the summer? Would quitting mid or late September be better or does it make no difference? I know even if I start a job before August I’d have to negotiate that week as well. But I don’t want to wait 2+ months to start interviewing.

    1. Hope*

      Just keep job searching (you haven’t even had an interview yet, right?), take your vacation, and worry about handing in notice once you have an offer in hand. Right now is way too early to be worrying about this. Your vacation time is part of your compensation for the job you’re doing, and there’s nothing wrong with taking it and handing in a notice later in the month if that’s how it works out.

    2. Sunflower*

      Keep sending out resumes- job searching processes are so unpredictable and long and I have yet to have any process be less than 2 months from the date I sent the application to the start date. Are you in the interview process with anyone? If not, I doubt you an offer will come up before August so I would not hold off until after your vacation.

    3. TooTiredToThink*

      I think it completely depends on your industry. 2 months from start of job search to starting the new job seems awfully quick to me based on what I’ve read here. Push comes to shove I would only apply to the jobs that I really, really, really want for the next two weeks (ones that I would kick myself for not applying too) and then go full forward knowing that odds are I wouldn’t be hired until after I return. And then if by some strange chance I happen to be hired sooner I would just start it as part of my negotiation.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        This was my strategy and it worked out well. I ended up putting my notice in two weeks after taking some PTO at my last job back in April. They lived.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I’d keep job searching. Maybe you’re in some super in-demand field, but every job search I’ve done has taken months to complete. If you just started now, it’d be cool if you found a job before September, but it’s better to give yourself buffer.

      Should I wait to job search until after the summer?

      I wouldn’t wait. Some companies have very slow hiring processes. You could put in an application, and they may not even get back to you with a phone screen until weeks later, depending.

      1. ThatGirl*

        Yeah, even for jobs that managers are eager to get filled here it seems to take a minimum of 4-6 weeks from interview to offer, with a start date negotiable after that. And that’s not even counting time between application and interview rounds.

    5. gbca*

      As someone currently job hunting…don’t adjust your timing at all around the vacation. Everything takes way longer than you think it will. And if you do get an offer quickly, everyone (both current and future employer) can work around a pre-planned vacation.

      1. Bunny*

        Completely agree, when I started my current job I was terrified to ask for a vacation just weeks after starting, it was a trip with my husband’s family that had been planned for over a year.

        I worked up the courage, went into my boss’s office groveling and told them I was more than prepared to cancel this trip but it was really important to me if there is any way I could have the time off…

        The response was, of course! We would never ask you to give up a vacation with your family, especially one that had been planned for so long! It took us months to find you, we can certainly manage a week without you.

    6. Kyubey*

      I do have one interview next week, they mentioned they need someone to start asap. I’m in accounting and in a big city so there’s a lot of jobs available. I’ve only had 2 jobs in the past and both took scout a month from when I applied to day of offer, but you never know I guess

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This pleases me greatly. You’ll be snapped up. Just give them 2 weeks notice, don’t stress about their feelings, you just continue to be professional and they get to manage their own emotions.

      3. ramonaflowers89*

        Make a contract with me and become a magical girl!

        ／人◕‿‿◕人＼

        *Signed a HUGE fan of Madoka Magica

    7. anna green*

      Do not even consider quitting before you have another job! People quit after vacations all the time. Just be professional and give appropriate notice and you’ll be fine.

    8. Quickbeam*

      I had a massive trip to Scotland planned a year in advance and ended up with a new job starting the week before. I worked it into my acceptance of the job. It ended up being no big deal and my then-boss actually worked out how I could get paid for most of it.

    9. CupcakeCounter*

      Part of doing business. I have a vacation at the end of August and another over Christmas. Not stopping me

    10. SciDiver*

      Even if your job search has been quick in the past, things tend to move more slowly over the summer! People take time off, the hiring manager goes away, jobs get posted but internal expectation is to fill them sometime in the fall, etc. Definitely keep looking, even if you’re interviewing in July it may take a while to get through all the rounds and have a formal offer come through. Plus your current job approved your time off, it’s not on you to cancel those plans because there’s a *chance* you might leave soon after.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Screw them if they get salty that you took vacation then quit. That’s your benefit and they need to deal with it!

      Continue working and taking vacation/PTO as you would if you weren’t planning on leaving. That’s the way to handle it

    12. Double A*

      I’ve gone on vacation within a month of starting at least two new jobs. It’s pretty common. You can just negotiate it as part of the offer.

    13. Rachel in NYC*

      There isn’t any reason not to plan for your vacation as per normal. It’s no different then you taking vacation and the company firing you the day you get back. (I know it sounds crazy but my office did that with someone. I think they felt it was better to do it after then before and it’s not like we pay out vacation.)

    14. EngineerMom*

      Please, please, just keep job searching! And keep that search to yourself – do not tell anyone you work with what you’re doing. Two weeks’ notice is sufficient, regardless of whether your last vacation was yesterday or months ago.

      It could take you months to find a new job. Or it could take a week. You don’t know, so start now.

    15. Name (Required)*

      If you nail it and get the job you want on your very first application, 2 months would still be pretty fast in my industry.

      I applied for a job 4/24, they reached out for a phone screen 6/3, they reached out for an in person meeting 6/8, asked for references 6/21. So that is 2 months and as far as I can glean I was the only one they even brought in for an interview… and I still don’t actually have an offer on the table!

      Also, in my state, vacation time would need to be paid out if not used, so you should see if that’s the case in yours. It would be silly for anyone to be upset at you leaving after a vacation here, since they’d have had to pay you out that anyways. The reason that they have to pay it out is that you have already earned the vacation time by accruing it. It is essentially a wage that is owed to you.

      My vote is to start job searching now, and if you are in high demand and lucky and have an offer to start suspiciously close to vacation, just ask if you can delay your start a bit? Or just go with it. Either way, start searching now and don’t feel bad about doing what is best for you.

  5. Bee's Knees*

    Someone made fun of my work fanny pack. It isn’t stylish, and I feel like a dweeb wearing it. As any female knows, pockets are a problem, or rather, the lack thereof.

    [Insert photo set here of Leslie Knope talking to Ben about pockets. I can’t do that, so you’ll just have to picture it.]

    To make up for the fact that’s my work pants either don’t have pockets at all, or are so small you could fit a quarter and a half a stick of gum in them, I got a fanny pack to compensate.

    That way, when I go out on the floor, I have somewhere to put my phone, my watch, some sticky notes and pens, and a couple of tissues. If I’m just running out there real quick, I don’t take it, but otherwise, I do.

    Anyway, Dori took it upon himself to comment on it. I’ve had and used it for a couple of months, and he is the first to do so, to my face, anyway. I told him I was rocking it, and then showed him the fake pocket situation I was working with yesterday.

    He then agreed that it was a good idea, and that fake pockets are stupid. Mission accomplished.

    1. londonedit*

      Well, I keep seeing fashion articles claiming that bum bags (we don’t call them ‘fanny packs’ here because ‘fanny’ is a name for the…*front* bottom…) are super stylish at the moment! Just say you’re bang on trend!

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Oh, I said I was. I probably wouldn’t wear it out into society, but it’s just plain black and blends with my pants (trousers, in y’all’s case :-) ) so it’s not that bad.

      2. Public Sector Manager*

        As for bum bags in the office, they are becoming more common with our IT techs.

        Side note: I found out about the other definition of “fanny” the hard way. My wife is from Ireland but has been here in the U.S. for 15 years. On our third date she made me dinner. As she was cooking, I decided to be playful. Growing up in the U.S., I didn’t know the across the pond version of fanny. So I tapped my wife on the butt and whispered into her ear, “I’m going to slap your fanny harder later tonight.” Her head literally spun around like Linda Blair in The Exorcist. This is now my mother-in-law’s favorite story.

        Second side note: I can’t help laughing at the oatmeal brand at my grocery store “Cafe Fanny.”

      3. TechWorker*

        +1 – if you ever use the term ‘fanny pack’ outside the US you should be aware people will take it very differently!

    2. Duchess Honeybadger*

      Bless you for taking the time to explain things to a card-carrying member of the patriarchy. My first thought was that Dori could suck it. Also, fanny packs are back on trend. So there.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        All day yesterday, I was doing this weird arm swinging motion, because I was trying to put my hands in my pockets and couldn’t.

      2. Jaid*

        I usually see them being worn across the chest, when influencers wear them. Why, I don’t know, unless it’s so the fancy logo on the bag can be seen easier.

    3. Middle Manager*

      If you’re into dresses, I can’t recommend Eshakti enough. It’s basically my whole work wardrobe. Virtually everything they make has real, usable pockets.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I haven’t ever ordered from them, but I’ve seen their website, and their stuff is super cute. Unfortunately, I have to wear pants to work. It’s a safety issue. Otherwise I would rock a dress/skirt almost all the time.

        1. Anonanon doo doo doo doo doo*

          May I suggest Carhartt’s and Dickies’ women’s collection? They make real pants with real pockets for real working women!

          1. Bee's Knees*

            Do they have dress pants? It’s business casual, but not casual enough I can wear jeans and a nice top.

            1. Cog in the Machine*

              Dickies has some pant styles that are definitely closer to trouser than jean, but it would probably depend on how dressy you need or if there is a fabric content requirement.

    4. Rebecca*

      I don’t know if this would help you, but I use a “run buddy”. It’s a pouch type thing with a velcro flap that can hold my phone, a few tissues, money, a pen, just a few things…and it has magnets so the back part goes inside my pants waistband, and the front part goes over top – and the magnets hold it in place through the fabric. I don’t have it with me today, so I can’t tell you the brand, but I use it both at work when wearing pants without pockets, and when I wear my sports leggings, also no pockets, grrr!!!

      1. Elizabeth West*

        *googles* Ooh, I want to look for one of those (the cheap version). I have a thing for my phone that clips onto my waistband, but it ONLY holds the phone and has no pocket for anything else.

      2. Amethystmoon*

        There are scarves with pockets. The pockets aren’t very big, but could realistically hold something like car keys and some cash rolled up.

    5. MissMaple*

      Good for you! I was just having this discussion with a female colleague yesterday when I was trying to balance my clipboard and cellphone and pens…I said we should get everyone fanny packs with our group logo on them and she agreed :) Assuming that’s not happening anytime soon, do you have a work fanny pack you like? I’d love a suggestion.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        I got the amazon’s choice fanny pack, it’s a unisex black one with an adjustable strap. It’s by a company called yome. I really like it, and it holds everything I need it to.

      2. NYCRedhead*

        It’s not a fanny pack but I just bought something called HipKlip, which is a pouch with a few different pockets that clips onto a waist band. It’s a little less fanny pack-looking but is the same idea.

    6. Nanc*

      If you’re a sewer it’s pretty easy to add pockets to your pants. Dritz makes sew-in or iron on pockets and they really do last.

      Or women’s clothing designers could just start producing nice pants with real pockets. Grumble gripe moan complain.

        1. Nanc*

          Scandal! Seriously, designers of women’s clothing don’t seem to understand the concept of having pockets is to carry stuff. Why so many women’s shirts/blouses with chest pockets and so few pants, dresses and skirts with no/useless/fake pockets? I’m tempted to go full on utility kilt but I have to crawl around under desks on occasion.

          1. Amethystmoon*

            Last year, I had a purse mistakenly taken at an event at a hotel. Wasn’t even for work, it was with an organization that I volunteer for. I had put my car keys/apartment keys in said purse because I did not have pockets in my dressy clothes. I had to get a ride from a friend to get home, then called the apartment manager (on a Saturday), and had to pay the $25 fee to get let in after hours. I also had to call the hotel to make sure my car didn’t get towed or anything overnight. I finally got my purse back the next day, nothing missing, but that was the first time I was able to get my car back. I now keep a spare car key in my work drawer, since at least I could have gone in on Monday and for sure could have gotten it then. But I would have at least had my car and been able to save myself the $25 charge, if I had pockets in my dressy clothes.

            I have since bought a few scarves with pockets (Amazon sells them) as a failsafe.

        2. Jasnah*

          Sometimes women design women’s clothes with no pockets, because it messes with the silhouette/design. I rarely see pockets on pencil skirts, for instance.

    7. Bree*

      I like this! I have a small, faux-leather fanny pack that is probably as close to “professional” as one could get, and I might start carrying it at work. I hate having to carry a full purse everywhere.

    8. Busy*

      PUT POCKETS IN THE PANTS!!!!!!! ITS 2019!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! PUT THE POCKETS IN THE PANTS!!!!!!

      Make 2019 the year of the pockets!!!

    9. RandomU...*

      Isn’t it easier to buy pants with pockets? I won’t buy pants don’t have pockets and haven’t really had a problem with limited selections. Now sweaters with pockets can be a challenge, but not impossible.

      The other thing I do, is carry a small wallet/wristlet/cross body purse (It’s the length and height of my cell phone). It’s actually my wallet that usually lives in my bigger purse/bag. But when I’m on the run in the office I take it out and use that for all the things you mention. Same in my off hours, if I’m going out or doing something I don’t want to carry a full purse, I’ll just grab that and go.

      1. Zombeyonce*

        It’s hard enough for most women to find pants that fit in the first place, much less be able to be choosy about whether or not they have pockets.

      2. Jadelyn*

        I’m trying to be polite, but I very nearly burst into laughter just now. If you’ve found where they actually sell women’s pants with usable pockets, please, let us all know so that we can buy our pants there. Like…”no pockets” is the #1 complaint women have about clothing for a reason, it’s not just that women en masse are deliberately buying pocketless pants and then complaining about it. “Just buy pants with pockets” is…not a particularly useful suggestion for most of us.

        1. RandomU...*

          Here you go for my “not a particularly useful suggestion”:

          JC Penny Worthington brand, Ann Taylor, Several random brands on Amazon; All purchased in the last 2 months: LEE Women’s Midrise Fit Bohemian Cargo Capri Pant (probably not work wear), Mariyaab Women’s Full Length 100% Linen Pants with Button Closure and Rounded Pockets , Lark & Ro Women’s Stretch Crop Kick Flare Pant (these I wouldn’t recommend due to the zipper and hook & eye closure but they have deep pockets!).

          Seriously I buy and wear pants with pockets. I don’t have a secret source for pants purchases. I buy mine at pretty normal and accessible places. I don’t spend outrageous amounts of money on my pants. Have I run into no pocket styles, of course I have. I just refuse to buy them. I keep looking until I find pants with pockets, and then I buy several pair in different colors if need be.

          2. Madison*

            Agreed! All my work pants are slim cut, with pockets. Uniqlo has the best work pants and I shove phone, pens, tissues, lip balm etc in there all the time!

        2. Wrong Target*

          Banana Republic. They come stitched shut so that they lie flat, but the pockets are there.

          1. RandomU...*

            I often wonder how many people complain about no pockets and haven’t realized that they do have them, but they are stitched :)

            I’ll admit to doing it once or twice.

          2. Rachel in NYC*

            Yeah but would any of those securely hold a phone? I’m currently wearing women’s cargo pants and I have pockets but I wouldn’t consider any of something you could secure a phone in. Cash and tissues would be fine…an ID maybe, not a wallet. Or not without massive strange bulges.

            1. RandomU...*

              I think it depends on the scale of the items (phone and wallet) and the style of the pants.

              Super giant iPhone and skinny cut/low rise pants… well probably not. Slim wallet vs. large checkbook style wallet? Most women’s wallets are larger than men’s wallets but if we’re talking a size approximately the same as a typical men’s then yes. If you’re asking can I slip my phone into my pocket, yes. I will say that I typically wear trouser/boot cut/wide-ish leg style.

              But, to be fair men wearing skinny pants can’t really use their pockets to fit phones and wallets either.

            2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

              I have tried on so many pairs of trousers that have such tiny pockets that I can’t even put my hand in them. So annoying. I have a hell of a time finding things that fit my large body that I can’t really be picky about pockets if I want to be dressed. But this is one reason why I have been learning to sew.

            3. Jasnah*

              This is why I don’t see the value in the pockets vs. no pockets argument. I like to carry more things than pockets allow (book, umbrella, water bottle…) and don’t like how clothes look when the pockets are large enough to securely hold my phone, wallet, and keys–means the pants are going to be pretty baggy or bulgey looking.

        3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I am still mourning the loss of Mervyn’s. They sold women’s pants (100% cotton black slacks and khakis) at a reasonable price with pockets I could fit a graphing calculator in. It was a sad day when the last of mine wore out to the point of not being repairable in a “wear at work” way. (I am pretty good at repairing clothes, but at some point you need to sew on a patch over a worn through spot and I don’t think I could get away with patches on my butt at work. I’ll darn over small rips with same-color thread and keep wearing the pants, but there’s a limit.)

          I still won’t buy pants without pockets, but if that’s the hill you die on pants shopping is a pretty involved process. I ‘m between pants brands again since Fred Meyer’s changed their lines around this year. Once I find pants that meet my assorted requirements (high waisted, 100% cotton, pockets, and with the right cut for the actual body I have, which does not have the same belly/rear proportion many lines use), I will generally buy 10 or so identical pairs so I can avoid shopping for pants again for a while.

        4. Llellayena*

          Lee All Day Pant. Nice deep pockets, business casual pants (fabric is more cotton than poly so it’s not shiny like more formal slacks). I never buy pants without pockets because I don’t carry a purse unless I really have to. (And dresses are reserved for special occasions, not every day) So I look for pants with pockets that can hold wallet, keys, watch and occasionally pocket knife. I won’t buy pants the wallet doesn’t fit in.

        5. roisin54*

          I am currently wearing a pair of pants I got at The Gap that have multiple pockets big enough for my cell phone, keys, tissues, and various other little things. I’ve also had good luck with St. John’s Bay and Eddie Bauer. I do work somewhere where only the highest of higher-ups ever have to be at all dressy and even then they don’t do it frequently, so we all do tend to dress on the more casual side.

        6. Amethystmoon*

          Alfred Dunner does make pants with pockets, they have some plus sizes, and as a petite woman, I don’t have to get them hemmed. However, they may not be appropriate for all workplaces. They’re fine for business casual, but if you have to wear a suit to work, I would say save them for casual Fridays.

    11. EngineerMom*

      Sounds awesome!

      Also, if their stuff fits you, Lane Bryant makes awesome work slacks that have Real Pockets that can actually hold stuff – on my left I currently have my iPhone SE and a pair of ear buds, and on my right, my set of keys, car keys, cash for lunch, credit card, and drivers’ license (I carry these items on my person so they can never been stolen out of my purse).

    12. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      They are oddly trendy at the moment. I bought one to use on some recent travels and it was dorky but very convenient. I carried it like a cross body bag when I was trying to be more fashion conscious.

    13. Who Plays Backgammon?*

      Would it work to carry it over your shoulder?

      Waist packs are uncomfortable for me, so I got another, small fabric Kipling crossover bag. It’s like a big pocket and hold all the basics. I can also toss it into my purse or computer bag if necessary.

  6. C*

    So, folks who have moved on from a company after being employed there for a long time (eg. 15+ years)…how did it go? Did it suck? Was it fun? Was it really hard to make the transition? Any advice?

    1. Happy Lurker*

      Following. I am in the same situation. Really nervous that I have gotten stale here!

    2. TooTiredToThink*

      I was laid off from my 10+ year job. The next job; yeah it was a bit weird. Sometimes I’d forget that some of the resources I was used to having wasn’t available; etc… But I’m an out of sight/out of mind type person and pretty adaptable so I feel like the transition was fairly smooth. The only part that wasn’t was the trauma of the layoff itself; which doesn’t sound like that’s an issue here.

    3. (Former) HR Expat*

      I moved on after 8 years. It was tough, but I’m doing ok. The hardest part is trying to remember that just because things are done differently doesn’t make them weird or wrong.

      1. Propane and propane accessories dealer*

        I am asking you this but it is also for any other people that have worked in HR and dealt with benefits or just know the answer. I was wondering how time consuming and intensive it is to set up manage on an ongoing basis a pretax – Flexible Spending Account system and pretax commuter benefits. My current company does not have either of those. I did the research and found companies that would manage both programs, they told me that it would be cost neutral if not a cost savings measure (we would have to pay the company to manage the program, but the payroll tax savings would offset that cost, or even save more money than the company charges). We have brought it up to our company president but it has not been implemented. We have 1 official HR person, in addition to a 3 person accounting department, for a company of about 60/70 employees.

        My sense is that it would not take to much work to manage on a monthly basis after it is set up, since it seems the 3rd party company takes care of most things, but I don’t know. I brought up via email the pretax commuter benefits to our HR person one time and they never responded, but they just talked to someone else and complained about how “We already have great benefits.” Which I acknowledge that we do, but if more benefits don’t cost the company anything I don’t see why we shouldn’t have them. It dosen’t seem that hard to me, and I think our HR person might just be lazy, but I don’t know and am trying to give them the benefit of the doubt.

        1. (Former) HR Expat*

          I’m sorry, but I wouldn’t know the answer to this. I’ve always worked in really large companies that have a separate benefits team who would handle this sort of thing. I wish I could help!

      2. CmdrShepard4ever*

        I’m going to ask you but also any other HR people, or anyone who knows the answer. But how much initial work and ongoing work does it take to set up and maintain a pretax flexible spending account and pretax commuter benefits? My company does not have them and we have asked about them. My initial thought is the our HR person does not want to do the work. But I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. For perspective they are the sole HR person in a company of about 60 to 70 people, but there is a 3 person accounting dept.

        I did the research and contacted a 3rd party company that said they could handle most of the work. They do charge a fee but said it would break even or even save more money than what they charge with the payroll taxes the company would save.

        I had previously mentioned pretax commuter benefits to the HR person via email. They never responded to me but did complain to someone else about “the company offering great benefits already and the HR person knowing how to do their job.” the company does ha e really good benefits, to me if the company can break even or even save money while offering more benefits it makes sense to add it.

    4. AliV*

      I didn’t think about the “mental bandwidth “ I would have to devote to minor differences in the workplace. Small nuances like different versions of software, different communication tools, where to find the office supplies, that sort of thing. Each thing is a small thing but they added up.

    5. GoryDetails*

      This was a long time ago, but I spent a happy 16 years at DEC (one-time huge computer company in the northeastern US), doing software engineering in different groups. I really loved it, but the corporate culture began to change (beginning of the end of the company, though I didn’t know it at the time), and I moved on to a much smaller outfit. I was still doing programming, but in a very different context, with the whole new-job elements of different commute, new people, where-to-get-lunch, etc. And… I loved it, too! Had a really tight group of co-workers, interesting projects, great balance of get-the-work-done and have-some-fun… I may have been lucky in my choice of new job, but while I did have some nostalgia for the good old days at DEC, I didn’t regret moving on.

      Not sure what advice I can offer, other than to do your best in searching for a new job to find one that suits you (not easy even then, but way harder now) and to allow for some period of adjustment over the change. Could be simple annoyance at the change of long-standing habits or something akin to grief at losing the old environment/co-workers/status/whatever; just allow for it, use whatever coping mechanisms work for you, and be open to whatever the new place offers. (I had a longer commute, which forced a change in the way I ran errands; I wound up acquiring an addiction to audiobooks while in the car, and found some handy spots near my new job for things like mailing packages, getting my car inspected, and so forth.)

      1. Abby*

        DEC nostalgia! My dad worked at DEC in the eighties and nineties – a huge chunk of my childhood elementary school was families who’d moved to the area when DEC opened an office there.

      2. Smiling*

        Our company actually still uses software it got from DEC. Always interesting teaching new recruits to use something DOS based that doesn’t use a mouse.

        1. Who Plays Backgammon?*

          God bless DOS! I mentioned it to one of our IT wizards the other week and he misses it too. Newer and shinier isn’t necessarily better. :)

    6. DonkeyHotey*

      Old place closed and laid off everyone in one fell swoop. I’d been there 14 years.
      That was two years ago (almost exactly) and I’ve moved on to a different place.
      My one piece of advice: Once you land a new job, remove the phrase, “At my last place, we (did X)” from your vocabulary. It can be really wearing on your new friends and co-workers to hear the professional equivalent of “This one time, at band camp…”

    7. Spooooon!!*

      I recently left a place after 18 years. It was not an easy decision, but I felt I was becoming too niche. My last few days were very emotional, but I knew it was the right decision.

      I would allow yourself space to feel all sorts of things, and try to come to a neutral place when (assuming you are) you start a new job. The book Managing Transitions by William Bridged has really helped me.

      1. Smiling*

        I think sometimes we just have to look at ourselves as a whole and our accomplishments, looking past the pigeon-hole we feel like we’ve been in for years.
        Based on everything I’ve read here over the years, company does many things backwards or is antiquated in its approach.
        My biggest question is about retraining for corporate norms.

      2. Hangry*

        Over two decades at the same workplace for me, and moving on was SCARY. I worried I was too comfortable and would struggle to learn new things. I finally took the leap to a job where EVERYTHING was new to me — but they hired me anyway! — and it turns out I *can* learn new processes, procedures, and policies. And I’m really good at it. WellRed… you can do it, too!

        1. Daniela*

          So glad to read about someone that transitioned after 20+ years. I’m in the same boat, and while I love my job, I’m concerned about having to move into an entirely new role, in case of a RIF.

      3. Donkey Hotey*

        I get that. When I was laid off after 14 years, I immediately reverted to looking for jobs that fit the profile which got me that job.

        Thankfully, my Long Suffering Wife suggested I take a few steps back and see that I wasn’t just doing teapot handle ergonomics that I was actually doing a very focused version of teapot design. Yes, I had the most experience in handles, but lids and spouts and bases all fell into place.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      After 10+ years I left. It was amazing, I’ve loved everything I’ve done since, even the toxic waste dump I ended up for a minute, it taught me a ton and gave me a springboard into a new area, it also introduced me to a couple good friends along the way.

      It was scary at first but really, it was refreshing and you really do usually always land on your feet -=)

    10. Yellow*

      Not 15 years, but 9 at my old job. It was toxic for the last 2-3 years. It was scary leaving, but I haven’t regretted it for a second. It’s been 3+ years, and am still SO HAPPY I left.

    11. Pilcrow*

      My situation was a little different than most, but I hope it helps.

      I worked for a professional services company (PSC) for 16 years. I was sent to various client sites to do work and PSC invoiced them. My W-2, benefits, and pay were through PSC. Then I got laid off a year after PSC got bought by a venture capital firm.

      Since I regularly got different clients, I did OK keeping my skills up and was reasonably “flexible” regarding doing different projects (often different industries) and adapting to different cultures.

      What really sucked was all the job hunting stuff – updating the resume, cover letters, networking, job application systems. I hadn’t looked for work since 1998 (first job out of college, too)! Still used resume paper back then! I really wished I had followed AAM when I got laid off. I think my job hunt would have been much easier just with adapting to how much the mechanics of job hunting had changed in that time.

      1. C*

        OMG, the “how much has changed” is crazy. Especially since I never really job hunted. I got hired here as a temp and then got hired on full time so I didn’t really need to do cover letters or thank you notes or any of that, even when I applied for internal jobs, so it’s just a totally different dynamic.

    12. noahwynn*

      I left a job after almost 10 years (1 month short). The company had been acquired and was in the process of merging into the larger organization. My department was eliminated and I had to lay off all of the employees I had hired over the 10 years. It really was the best choice for the company as a whole and I have no issues with how they handled it. I was offered a position but would be forced to move several states away and even before the merger was announced I was looking for a job.

      Anyways, it was very difficult. After a long time with a company you become very comfortable there and know almost everything about it inside and out. Moving on was for the best, but it was not easy.

    13. MMB*

      In 2009, I left a company after 16 years. Started there when I was 22 and left at 38! It had become Chernobyl level toxic where I was. It was scary, amazing and everything in between at first :) It was also the best decision I ever made. I’m in a completely different career now using the same skills and loving what I do!

      As an FYI I took a massive (like 50%) cut in pay and responsibilities at first just to get out of that job and despite the initial financial stress, I would do it all over again. I really learned a lot about myself, my capabilities and what I enjoy. Good luck!

    14. Mademoiselle Sugarlump*

      I worked for Tandem > Compaq > HP > HPE for twenty years and left a couple of years ago for similar job with more pay at a more stable company. The actual work is very similar and I had to learn some new tools but I’ve dont that many times. (I’m a tech writer and it’s part of the job.)
      When I gave my grand boss the news she said “Wow, I didn’t think YOU would be a flight risk” which really annoyed me! Did she mean “I didn’t think you’d have the gumption to leave”?
      Agree about the “mental bandwidth.” At the old job I was the go-to person: I knew everybody, who to ask, every process, etc. and didn’t know any of that at the new one. Luckily I had a great manager who understood and made a point of introducing me to lots of people and letting me know that when I had a question about teapots, Gloria and Larry are the people to ask, and here’s a link to the internal web page that tells you how to order tea when you need it, and so on. I took a lot of notes. Then she went on a medical leave and I had to get answers on my own which sounds scary but was actually a good experience.

    15. Mavis*

      It was super hard to adjust! And I passed old company on way home and my heart would hurt.

      Got over it in 3-4 weeks.

    16. goducks*

      I left my prior job after 17 years. I was ready for a new challenge, but the thing that I didn’t expect is that nearly 3 years in, I still have to mentally stop myself from referring to the company by my old company’s name. Like in sentences like “we are working on developing a new process for ordering. It will certainly make it easier for (Company name)’s staff to be effective”. I have to think EVERY TIME because my brain first wants to insert old company name. I’m terrified of slipping. It’s like a sort of muscle memory I can’t undo.

      1. Anne (with an “e”)*

        I can relate to this. I taught at Smalltown High School, the local public hs, for over twenty-five years. Then, I stated teaching at Smalltown Academy, a private school. I enjoy the new job and the new school very, very much. However, l would slip and call my current school by the name of my old school all the time. I had to concentrate and force myself to say Academy instead of High School, especially the first year or so.

        Another problem I would have is that once in a while I would say to a new colleague something along the lines of , “Oh, at previous school *we* do such and such practice or procedure.” Instead I should have been saying, “At previous school *they* do whatever.” It took me quite a while to think/say *they* instead of *we* when referring to the old job. I also had to force myself to cut down on talking about the old job. I was already trying to do this because I’ve been reading this blog for so long — but to never refer to 25 years of one’s life is a big ask.

        1. goducks*

          Yes! I had to purposely stop talking about old job. I felt like I was always talking about it.

  7. Sunflower*

    Should I reach out to a former employee(who I am connected to) to ask about the red flags at my new job?

    I’m really back and forth at my current job that I’ve been at for 3 months. Some days are great, and some are terrible. The turnover on the team has been high, my boss isn’t great and my coworker just left after 3 months so I know something is up. A person who used to be on this team replaced me at my old job and I’m debating reaching out to her to get some thoughts on what I’ve experienced here(i’m still close with old teammates). Here’s the thing- her departure was not a cordial one. I know there were problems on both sides of her and my boss/grandboss’s relationship and it didn’t end well. I see both positive and negative sides to reaching out- in one way, I’ll get a ton of inside info that could take me years to figure out. On the other hand, will everything just be skewed towards bad due to her overall experience here? I doubt it would ever get back to my boss that I reached out to her (although I don’t think that would be a red flag since she does work under my old boss)

    1. LibbyG*

      Maybe the answer is in what you’d want to ask? LIke, I could see a productive conversation that starts with “I’ve noticed some persistent rift between Titus and Hatshepsut. Is there some background there I should be aware of?” An open-ended digging kind of conversation might turn into the negativity avalanche you fear.

      1. Auntie Social*

        The LW could also ask her what she liked best about the job, especiallyif it gets negative. “I liked interacting with the branch offices, did you like that? What else did you like?”

    2. Mary Smith*

      I left a really horrible job and at least 3 potential candidates reached-out to me prior to applying. I thought it was amazing that they did this and I plan to do it too if I ever move to another company. One I knew, but the other two just found me on LinkedIn and took a chance.

    3. Watermelon M*

      Hmm I’ve heard varying things in here about leaving stuff off or keeping it on. I think under 6 months you could leave it off the resume since it might raise some questions? I’m not sure what the rule of thumb is there but I think it would be reasonable to leave it off but not lie about it if they asked what you’re doing in your time.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You already know she may skew extra negative, so you can combat that by internally reminding yourself that you have to take it with a grain of salt, given her departure! However you may just get a lot of validation for the flags you’ve seen and it will relieve you in that sense.

      I learned a helluva lot when I left and we finally all came together to “chat” as former colleagues formally stuck on the same sinking ship of doom.

    5. Officious Intermeddler*

      How well do you know that person? After I left a job, I was floored by how many of my colleagues who were still there wanted to talk about things going on there, months and even a year later. Because I know the people and had spent many years there, I think they felt they could talk to me without gossiping among other employees–plus, I had the benefit of hindsight. Anyway, that dynamic worked for me (and I hope for them?) because we knew each other well. I think if someone I didn’t know at all, or only know by name, were to ask me, I’d be cagier about what I’d say.

  8. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

    Last week, I created a deliverable to be distributed to a number of clients based off of a meeting we all attended. I sent the draft of the deliverable to my project lead with a couple of questions, and he corrected the deliverable to reflect the answers to the questions and sent it along to the clients.

    However, when he made his edits, it affected a ton of other items in the deliverable that made a lot of it incorrect. From our meeting, the clients knew that I was the one who was putting together this document, and now they are emailing me with corrections that need to be made….things that were already on the draft deliverable before the project lead messed them up!! I know this because the project lead kept the original draft and I can see that the errors were not there before. Plus, I spent 8+ hours on this thing, I know it pretty well.

    This is the first time in my career that I’ve felt frustrated and a little wronged by a person, rather than frustrated with the work itself. I’m afraid that this reflects badly on me in the eyes of the clients since they think that this was my work and therefore my errors. I don’t think there is anything for me to do about it, I can’t make my project lead who is senior to me email the group and take responsibility for the errors. I know he didn’t sabotage my work on purpose, but I can’t help but feel annoyed at him. I just don’t know how to deal with this. Has anybody else experienced this?

    1. LibbyG*

      So frustrating!

      If this is the first time this has happened and you’re generally known for good, careful work, then I think you don’t need to address this incident per se. Just be sure that going forward you shape the workflow better. Maybe send questions without the draft to the lead if you don’t entirely trust them to honor your request to send it back to you. Or meet in person to go over your questions.

    2. Troutwaxer*

      Assuming a decent relationship with the project lead, you should discuss the matter. Take him/her through the document, show them the mistakes they made, and explain that you (and the company) looked really bad in front of the client. Then inform the project lead that from now on, they should not make corrections to the document, but instead inform you of any problems they see, so that you can edit the document and make sure that problems don’t creep into your presentation.

    3. Jadelyn*

      I haven’t been in this precise situation, but I don’t think you’d be out of line to talk to the project lead just to ask that, in the future, he send the corrected draft back to you for a final review before it goes to clients, since in this last document the edits he made produced errors elsewhere that you didn’t get a chance to correct before the clients saw it. Maybe lean a bit on the “of course we all want the work clients see to be our top quality, so can you please help me make sure that’s what actually happens” as a shared value. If you keep the focus on what you’d like to see happen going forward, it doesn’t sound as much like you’re chastising him for the current situation.

      1. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        Good approach. I’d worry that going and explicitly pointing out all the errors would not be well received. And I’ve definitely had things like this happen! Managers, who have less technical expertise that staff, reword things and change the meaning resulting in the information being incorrect! Very frustrating.

      2. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        This is a good idea, thanks! Based on edit requests that I’ve seen come in this morning, I think I might end up having to ask him what exactly he altered so I can fix the problem from the source and create less work for myself. That will probably be a good opportunity to bring this up.

    4. Marcy Marketer*

      This happened to me recently. Going forward, I plan to send PDFs when I can so changes have to be made by me. I also will just look more closely at the edited document before sending it to clients in the future.

      2. Hamburke*

        one of the few things that I love about Google docs & sheets is the share levels – I send so many documents back & forth as “can comment”!

    5. Purple Jello*

      I agree with Jadelyn to talk to your project lead: <>

      When you send your document for review, turn on Track Changes and password protect the document. Then the lead will have to send it back to you to unlock and accept the changes – and make your final review. Otherwise he’d have to send a document with tracked changes, which is obviously not a final document.

      1. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

        We do use track changes on our Word documents, but this particular document was in a program that doesn’t offer track changes, unfortunately.

        I think password protecting a document that is supposed to be collaborative within our company would come across as a little hostile. The project lead and I normally work very well together, which I think contributed to how disappointed I am by this instance, but I’d really like to maintain that relationship if I can.

  9. Less Bread More Taxes*

    I have a burning question on awkwardness in the workplace. Basically, how do you address things when they get a little socially weird?

    The people at my current job (which I’ve been at for three months now) are more awkward than I remember anyone else being at previous jobs. There’s a tendency to let interactions linger. For example, one of my bosses will come to my desk every morning and ask if I have any questions for him. If I don’t have any, it ends up with me saying something like “I don’t have anything for you now, still working away on the report for project X!”. Every single time he just stands there for an extra few seconds smiling at me without responding and I end up just asking him about how his day is going to avoid painful silence.

    This question, however, comes from the single most awkward work experience of my life that happened on Tuesday and the followup on Wednesday. I work in a room with three others which I call my office. I got up to use the restroom, and my boss and her husband who also works here were ahead of me in the hallway. They turned around and literally ran over to me like they had something to say… but they didn’t. I initiated the conversation since it was turning awkward already and did the usual small talk for a few minutes … and then we all three just stood there for like 10 seconds without saying anything. They looked at me like I was supposed to tell *them* something. And they were blocking my way to the bathroom, so I ended up just saying “Well it was nice to see you” and ducked into my office to die of cringe. If I’d known them better, I’d say something like “Well it was nice catching up, but I have to pee! Can I shimmy past you guys?”

    THEN on Wednesday I opened my computer to find an email from my boss which said basically “Are you feeling okay? You seemed very shaky yesterday and I wanted to check in to see if anything was wrong.” It really rubbed me the wrong way since I don’t think I was the one who caused the awkwardness! And ‘shaky’? What does that even mean? I ended up sending the following response after mulling it over for an hour:

    I don’t want you to worry about me! I’m not sure why I would come across shaky – is this something that you have noticed often that is affecting my work here? Is there something I can work on?

    So… yeah. Was there a better email response I could have sent? Maybe I’ve been thinking about this way too much. How do I survive this job when nearly every interaction with my bosses is filled with awkward pauses? Do I just play that game and smile back until someone leaves? Ahhhhh.

    1. Duchess Honeybadger*

      Oi. I don’t know that I could have done it better than you did. But you are not wrong – that is super awkward.

    2. Little Pig*

      Oh my gosh. I have no advice to offer, just that I had a roommate like this. He was a perfectly nice, friendly guy, but he would come hang out near by as I was cooking/etc and just stand there smiling. Every time I walked through the kitchen to get to the bathroom, he would smile vaguely and say hello and I would have to make small talk. To use the bathroom. In my own home.

      By the end of the lease I HATED him. My blood still boils thinking about it.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        LMAO! I’m sorry, that sounds awful, but I hope you can see the humor in it now though I’m sure you wanted to karate chop his throat at the time.

        1. valentine*

          he would smile vaguely and say hello and I would have to make small talk.
          You could’ve said hello or acknowledged him nonverbally and not stopped. Even if he made small talk, you could’ve replied or laughed and kept going about your business.

          I agree with Mrs_helm below. In the morning, turn back to your work and plug away. He’ll leave. I think he’s waiting because you keep looking at him, so he thinks you have more to say and doesn’t want to walk out on you and doesn’t have an exit line. Best if you tell him, “I don’t usually have questions first thing, so, instead of you asking, let’s switch to me reaching out.” In the hallway, they thought you had something to say and, not knowing you were going elsewhere and possibly not realizing they were taking up the entire hallway like some people do, your retreat confirmed that you had something to say but ditched it for small talk. (Or they think you sought them out for awkward small talk.) Do you feel a great divide between them and you? Do you hold authority figures in exceedingly high esteem? You might have said, “Excuse me” or “Just passing through” and continued on your way.

      2. Manon*

        Ugh I’m in the same boat. I’m a college student renting a house with some friends and we rent out the vacant rooms over the summer. A friend of a friend subleased from us last summer and is back again this summer and he HOVERS incessantly. Like I’ll be cooking dinner, he’ll get home from work, we’ll chat for a minute – then he just stands watching me cook in silence for 30 minutes.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      I probably would have said “well as you were blocking my path to the restroom I was desperately trying to hold in my fart”

      1. Dontlikeunfairrules*

        Lolol! I was thinking something similar but minus the part about the fart (I am a poet and didn’t know it!).

        I would have responded to the email with “Sorry if I seemed anything but normal in the hallway – I was actually headed to the restroom when you guys stopped me and I thought you had something work-related to discuss. After the minute of silence, I wasn’t sure what was going on so I retreated to my office.”

        How dare she make this about you being “shaky” (whatever that even MEANS!) after she caused an awkward interaction. I can’t stand those “ARE YOU OKAYYYYY??!!” type folks anyway – don’t feign concern when you are just clueless.

    4. Washi*

      Ahhhh I have a coworker who just stares at me at the end of our interactions! It’s super weird- I’ll answer her question and give all the “conversation over” signals and she’ll just stare at me for an extra couple of beats. At first I thought it was me or my language skills (we speak my second language together) but then I realized she does it with everyone. As awkward as it feels, I just turn away and continue with my work and let her stare at me for a few more seconds.

      All this to say that they were the awkward ones, not you!

    5. Jadelyn*

      The only advice I can offer is one that turns out very helpful in a variety of circumstances – get comfortable with silence. Learn to ride the pause. And then have a variety of stock phrases ready to extricate yourself with, like “well, I need to dive back in on X” or things like that. Let them be awkward, don’t internalize it, it’s not a you problem.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They sound like the “vibesssss” sort of people, who are trying to send you some energy or something with their weird long stares and smiles. I would try tricking my mind into ignoring them after you finish an interaction.

      I wonder how many people they’ve chased off with their weird behavior. This is something you can’t really guide people away form, it’s all about channeling your inner ability to disregard it.

    7. Errol*

      Next time go with firmly shouting “I HAVE TO PEE” and stare at them until they move out of the way. Make it equally as awkward for them.

      But actual advice – Some people aren’t the greatest at social interaction (me) and unlike me, some people kinda expect others to carry the interactions. When they linger, just go back to work. Be friendly of course, but after you say “nope, still working on project X” just smile and go back to work. If you just pretend they aren’t waiting and smiling at you, they will figure out they either need to continue the conversation or leave.

      But honestly, may as well make it amusing by making it as awkward for them as they’re making you.

    8. Anon from the Bronx*

      I have a sister-in-law like this. Always maintains eye contact & smiles faintly just a few beats too long IMO. Very uncomfortable!

    10. Busy*

      Haha I posted a couple weeks back about an interview I had at a company where the interviewers behaved like this (That thread turned strangely adversarial because people aren’t supposed to be thrown off by awkward behavior I guess? I’m still salty about that and haven’t asked advice here again) But anyway, yeah! It was awkward enough for me to literally not take the job! You have my sympathies.

      1. CMart*

        Well now I very much want to find that thread. I’m always fascinated by the discussions that sometimes happen in the comments section here where there’s a clear divide between people who think body language/social dynamics can/should/do have impact and people who think only words written or spoken, taken at face value, matter.

        1. Spencer Hastings*

          In that case, you should totally check out the most recent Captain Awkward.

    11. Mrs_helm*

      “Will you excuse me?” Works in a lot of circumstances. In that hallway, add a step forward and it means “I need to get past you”. When someone is at your desk, say that and then turn back to your work, to signal “I need to work”. It’s a very polite phrase, but almost no one can say no to. But if they do have something else to say, it prompts them to get on with it.

    12. smoke tree*

      Sometimes I find it freeing to realize that I’m not the source of the awkwardness. Since this seems to be your boss’s normal way of operating, she probably doesn’t really see these interactions as awkward at all. So if you can let go of the pressure to “fix” this, you might find it easier to get along with her.

    13. Anonymouse123*

      So I’m a weird person who absolutely LOVES awkward encounters. I just find them funny and they are the cupcake sprinkles of life.

      In these situations though, I find that things get more awkward the more people try to make them NOT awkward. For example, smiling, or saying something polite, or nodding.
      The fix, I find, is just politely saying what I need in that moment. So a friendly “I need to use the restroom, I’m gonna scoot by.” Or “Sorry, I really need to finish this report, let me know if you need anything” usually does the trick.

      For the email, I think you may have inadvertently opened an invitation for them to think of other times they thought you were shaky. I tend to just shut things down and close any sort of open loop “thanks for your email. I just really needed to use the restroom, I’m sure you understand! Everything’s good.”

      But in low stakes social interactions, I just have so much fun leaning into the awkwardness and seeing how they turn out.

    14. Samwise*

      Hmm, not sure why you felt the need to start a convo when you were heading to the bathroom. Just say, Excuse me! Or, Excuse me, gotta get to the facilities!

    15. Clarissa*

      Since you’ve only been there 3 months you haven’t gotten used to your coworkers/boss. And everyone handles these situations differently. Try practicing what you will say, or what you should have said.
      1. Say nothing.
      2. “I’m on my way to the bathroom.”
      3. “I have to get back to work.”
      4. Elevators used to be hard for me. Now I just smile/nod. If someone says hi I say hi.
      You will get used to these new people and everything will be fine.

    16. Close Bracket*

      So I am a) autistic and b) 48, which combine to make me completely impatient with things that go unsaid. For your bathroom example, I would have said, “excuse me,” and made as though to walk past them. If they didn’t move out-of-the-way, I would have said, “I’m actually on my way to the restroom.” If they still didn’t get out of the way, I would have said, “you’re blocking my path,” and would next have escalated to, “You’re in my way.” In the case of people hovering in your cube when you feel a conversation is over, I would say, “is there anything else you need?” And if they say no, then I say “OK I’m going to get back to work then.”
      Use your words. When unspoken signals got crossed, just speak them. It makes life so much easier.

    17. WannaAlp*

      That sounds to me like somehow, they have got hold of some greatly erroneous impression of you, and there is some kind of issue with you that you might need interaction for, or they would want to interact with. That would explain why your boss is being extra-communicative with you and giving you plenty of chances to say whether you need help with something. Whatever it is, it must also be pretty gossip-worthy if the corridor cabal rushed eagerly at you, they were presumably hoping to get an update, but you disappointed them(!)

      I don’t know how you deal with that, but you might try to get to the bottom of whatever rumours are being spread about you?

  10. Webex interview etiquette*

    Question on webex interview etiquette:

    Tl;dr; Webcam or no webcam?

    I’ve been through 5 interviews with an organization now, all via webex. I used my webcam in them all, but aside from the first interviewer turning his on at the end, none used their webcam. Is this normal? It felt kind of rude, but it was my first experience with webex interviews.

    1. Anonysand*

      I think it depends on the company and the department. At OldJob, which was a large/international company, we used Webex primarily as a glorified conference call tool. Most people would call in and the screen share option would be used during meetings, and that’s about it. There were a few individual teams that would use their webcams, but it wasn’t the norm.

      I would assume that webcams would be good for an interview, but in your instance maybe it’s better to leave it off and see how they proceed. Or, if they don’t, you can ask if they’d like to turn them on.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yeah, my company (a global software company) uses Skype and Teams for meetings and calls, but don’t use the video function at all. They didn’t even use them for my interviews, which I was fully expecting – they just called me on the phone. I actually liked and appreciated that since it didn’t make me self conscious during my interviews about how I looked or sounded, and it gave me an idea about how it was going to be at my company once I worked here (no video chats ever – yay!).

    3. Award winning llama wrangler*

      I just interviewed someone recently and had mine turned off. He very politely asked if there was a problem since he could see himself, but not me. I explained that it was 6:30am my time, and I wasn’t camera ready (I work remotely but very rarely wear pajamas to work, this was one of those times).

      Truthfully, I usually flip screens to the list of questions I want to ask and don’t look at the camera feed at all.

  11. Sunflower*

    How do I list a job on my resume that I’ve only been at for 3 months (and currently am employed at)? (second question today because it’s been a rough week)

    I’ve decided to throw some feelers out there after 3 months at my job. A lot of things have turned out differently and aren’t going to change so I’d like to just see what’s out there. I’m rather lost at how to list my current job. I want to keep it on there to show I’m employed but I obviously haven’t accomplished much/anything. Do I list my title, company, dates with no bullet points? Should I list 2 bullet points? Depending on how this goes, I may just keep this job off my resume in the future, so I’m mostly concerned with how to handle it in the present. I’m also most likely looking to change industries if that makes a difference.

    1. Lucette Kensack*

      I think the current job will hurt you more than help you. The positive effect of demonstrating that you’re currently employed is outweighed by the questions it will raise about why you’re leaving so quickly.

      1. Remote cat herder*

        Counterpoint: it’s still work experience. Op probably picked up a few new skills during those 3 months of onboarding, and that’s potentially valuable.

        The quick job switch can be fine IF op has a really good explanation – preferably something that was out of their control. For example, if the job was extremely different in reality than it was described on the job posting.

    2. (Former) HR Expat*

      I’m in the same boat as you. The job I was sold on 4 months ago is completely different than the job I’m currently doing (I was told they were looking to transform strategically, but what they really wanted was a recruiter who can handle the tactical paperwork side of HR too). Haven’t really expanded my skillset or made any meaningful contributions yet. I listed a couple bullet points with some of my tasks. It’s not the best, but I’ll probably leave it off the resume once I move on.

      1. BellBookCandle*

        Ding ding ding
        Same here. But communications focused role.
        Am having a tough conversation on Friday about resigning and well… It has been a messy time. I am third person in this role in 9 months. Boss is all over the map so to speak on messaging and needs etc. No kpis. No plans. It is a start up. With a lot of funding. And issues.

        1. Regina George is my Coworker*

          *raises hand* I, too, was alarmed to learn about the turnover rate in my current role. (Only learned about it after I was hired, of course!) I casually asked the people who were training me, “wow, why all the turnover?” and there was a VERY long, awkward silence.

          Surprise, surprise – a few months later, I’m looking for a different job. Lesson learned: ask more questions about why the last person left, how long they were in the role, etc.

    3. Natalie*

      It’s kind of a crapshoot, honestly. There’s no way to tell if leaving quickly is going to be more of a problem for any particular employer than looking like you’ve been unemployed for several months. You pays your money and you takes your chances, as they say.

      When I was in that situation I had the most luck with external recruiters. Convention allows them to be a little more direct than you can in a cover letter, so they did want me to include my current job and then they explained the circumstances to potential employers. I listed the basic job info (company, title, duties overview) with no accomplishments or highlights.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        That’s what I did back in the day, minus using a recruiter (I used a temp agency). I was able to move on just fine because the agency explained why I was looking to leave for me in a more professional (and BS) way.

    4. Partly Cloudy*

      I wish I could help, but I’m just here to offer further evidence to the fact that including it vs. leaving it off is a crap shoot.

      I recently interviewed a candidate who has only been at their current job for a month-ish, which originally put me off, but after learning more about their current position, I understand why they put it on their resume. It’s relevant and is slightly different from their past jobs in a way that differentiates them as a candidate for the open position. I’m still hemming and hawing over having this person back for a second interview – not just because of the resume, of course, but this position is actually a significant plus.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        Can you say more about why it’s a plus? As someone who has done a lot of hiring, it’s hard for me to imagine that a candidate with one month in a role would bring any meaningful experience from that role.

        1. Employee of a house of evil bees*

          I can offer an example! I learned to use a popular CRM software during my first month at Current Toxic Job. This was my first time using the software, but it’s a CRM-heavy role so I learned very fast. I’ve only been at this job a few months, but having that on my resume opens up a lot of doors for jobs that require a bit of previous CRM experience.

  12. Flinty*

    My job got a new database system about a year ago that my team uses every day. I picked it up pretty quickly and ended up helping a lot of my coworkers get the hang of it. A year in, most of them now have the hang of it and rarely ask me for help, especially since about 8 months ago I wrote up detailed instructions for all the things we do in this system. The problem is “Mary,” who constantly asks me for help. When I ask her to check the instructions, she incorrectly insists that what she needs is not in there, despite a clear table of contents with clear descriptive titles of all the processes (also no one else has this issue!) She is not able to follow written instructions even when they are shown to her.

    I brought this up to my supervisor, who told me that Mary had a traumatic brain injury a few years ago that affects her short term memory. She said that me helping Mary is her accommodation. The issue isn’t time – I’m very efficient and could technically squeeze this in. But I hate the interruptions, am completely running low on patience, don’t want to deal with this, and have noticed that others have begun to follow Mary’s lead and ask me questions that they could find the answers to themselves. Is there any way I can push back on this?

    1. Decima Dewey*

      Wow. It’s great that the company is trying to accommodate Mary. I’ve had short term memory issues all my life and can sympathize (no traumatic brain injury in my case). But I don’t think one coworker helping Mary is the best way to accommodate Mary’s short term memory issues. Particularly if it wasn’t made clear to OP in advance.

      1. valentine*

        Your supervisor needs to hire an actual aide for Mary. No one’s being helped here. This isn’t memory. Literacy is long-term memory. Mary seems to have a process/sequencing issue, as she can’t figure out how to use a table of contents. I don’t think you can teach her because her brain is moving the goalposts. You would have to go through every word in the FAQ. I can’t remember document titles because, where I would title them Thing (etc.), others will use, not even How to, but Doing Thing or Generating Stuff for Thing. It makes no sense and drives me up the wall. For Mary, if you tell her to look under Doing, even if she remembers that works for Thing, she won’t know to look under similar words or to do a title search for “Thing,” etc. Is this even what you’re meant to do or are you meant to be her ToC/FAQ and just tell her the manual exists and what page something is on?

        Tell your supervisor you’re spinning your wheels and Mary deserves an aide trained to work with TBI patients. (It might help to ask what the objective is and how much time you’re meant to spend, but the bottom line is you want out, so you don’t want her resolving this by removing your other duties and appointing you to Mary full-time.) It’s weird that Mary doesn’t seem to know that you’re meant to help her. I wonder if supervisor has said anything to her.

        Shut down your opportunistic colleagues by telling them supervisor has assigned you to help Mary or just saying, “I’m sure you’ll figure it out” or “Manual.”

    2. Tango Foxtrot*

      I don’t know how different this is, since my needs are seizure-related rather than cognitive, but any time my needed accommodations will involve action by a coworker, they’re told what to expect, what is my responsibility, and what is theirs. I find that helpful for everyone.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      What does a short term memory issue have to do with reading and following along with a process doc? Seems to me the accommodation was creating that document.
      Now if the injury affected her ability to read and process written words that would be different (no sarcasm intended but for some reason it reads that way to me) and talking her through it would be an accommodation although I’m not sure that should fall on you.
      At minimum keep referring the others to your documentation. Since this probably isn’t going to stop, is there a particular time of day that you could set aside as “Mary time”?

      1. Flinty*

        I have explained numerous times how to use the instructions I gave (how to search, how to look at the table of contents, that you have to follow the instructions step by step, etc) so I assume there must be a processing issue? Because yeah, I thought writing up a manual would solve the issue and it very much has not.

        1. WellRed*

          I agree, this is more than just a memory issue. I don’t think it’s reasonable for Mary’s accommodation to be *you.* She may not be suited for the job.

        2. Commenter*

          “I have explained numerous times how to use the instructions I gave (how to search, how to look at the table of contents, that you have to follow the instructions step by step, etc)…”

          ^ This makes me wonder if you could potentially document *those* instructions (i.e. the meta “how to use this instruction manual” instructions), if that’s where she’s consistently getting stuck at this point.

          You could frame it as a “Quick Start Guide” of sorts, or possibly a FAQ, and include the things you mention – how to search, how to use the table of contents, etc. Just keep it the quick reference doc as simple and direct as possible, and possibly use color and/or images as much as possible so it’s easy to scan the document and quickly find the applicable information.

          I also totally agree that you shouldn’t be expected to *be* her accommodation, but it’s worth considering if there might be some ways you could make the wealth of documentation you’ve created be even more readily accessible (as that would likely make your documentation more valuable and useful to everyone!).

          Good luck – this sounds SO frustrating! :(

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            I like the Quick FAQ idea. I think these tools are worthwhile even without having a “Mary” situation.

        3. C*

          Can you do a screencap recording of how to do the tasks she regularly asks about? If it’s an issue with processing written instruction, having some videos on her desktop titled “Update Lllama weights” and “Entering Llama feeding details” or something might be easier for her to find and the videos easier for her to process rather than asking you every time.

          1. Flinty*

            A few people have mentioned video, but when we had a trainer come to teach us to use the system, I noticed Mary had a very very difficult time following along unless the person next to her was repeating the instructions and using their finger to show her where to click.

            I would consider doing a recording/video if I thought it might work, but I really doubt it would, unfortunately.

            I also do have a general FAQ on the 2nd page of the manual (after the table of contents) but as best I can discover, her eyes just sort of skim over it :(

            1. Tango Foxtrot*

              With some of my students without with TBI, we use greyscale pictures of the screen with a colored arrow pointing to the place where they should click for each step. It minimizes visual distraction, which might help.

    4. KR*

      Are the instructions in PDF form? I wonder if you could show Mary how to utilize the search feature on a PDF so if she’s having issues running the teapot report you can show her that if she searches Reports it will come up, just as an example.

      Also is there a way she can email or save your questions for a once a day or once every other day chat? I think it might also be helpful when showing her how to do things to use the manual as a follow-along tool. So you’re more just walking her through the steps already provided in the manual.

    5. Flinty*

      I appreciate everyone’s input! Just to be clear, I do not want to be Mary’s accommodation. I don’t mind the occasional question, but I am tired of showing her the same things. Also, she is not very gracious if I tell her I need to help her later, which adds to my annoyance. Is there any way to tell my manager that I do not want to do this anymore?

      1. Bulbasaur*

        Maybe your company could invest in software that would allow Mary to record videos of her using the program to complete certain tasks, and she could just watch them again when she needed a refresher.

        That way, she has a library built of the specific tasks for which she is responsible that she can access at any time. Plus, it benefits everyone–it’s more documentation that can be used in the future.

      2. BethDH*

        I wonder whether you could bring it up with your manager as “how can we make this process work better?” rather than “how can I get out of this?”
        Then focus on the multiple interruptions, the inefficiency, and how it’s bleeding over into others doing it too.
        I think it would probably help too if you had some suggestions about improvements that could get the ball rolling on all three of you thinking of better ways to manage it. The “one time a day” thing, or that she goes to a different person each day for questions (on a schedule), or moving around some of her responsibilities so that she’s doing a smaller variety of processes. If it’s a visual-text-processing thing or something like that, there also might be technological aids available (I’m totally guessing here, but like the equivalent of a screenreader or Siri/Alexa for finding the right spot in the index).

      3. Auntie Social*

        Can you say that it’s clear you’re not effective since you’re explaining the same thing all the time? Should someone else have a go at being her accommodation, to see if they’re any better at it? If they have the same results as you then its time to give Mary a job that doesn’t deal with the database. She may be very relieved that she doesn’t have to keep bothering you, feeling ineffectual, like a bottleneck, etc. Suggest/ help create a position that’s really an accommodation. Are there aspects of her job where she doesn’t ask questions and her work is accurate? Have her do more of that–maybe offload some things that other people find repetitive.

      4. Just Here For This*

        I don’t know the politics in your office, but I have been where you are before. The only thing that ever worked was for the supervisor or manager to be as inconvenienced as I was. As long as it was me, then it was personalities and communication. When it was them, then it was performance issues and productivity. I once spent months dealing with a very negative person – and she was supposed to take work from my desk because I was working overtime – but she would wait for the attorneys to leave and then bring it back to me and do something else, or leave it. When hauled into a meeting by HR she was encouraged to vent about the lack of support she was getting. When I answered her with the performance issues I was seeing, HR kicked me under the table and I kicked HR back. After that, I asked the attorney to give her feedback personally and see how it went. After 72 hours of his giving her the same instructions over and over, the overtime was back on my desk and she was moved into a PIP. After she quit to avoid being fired, I was given even more overtime to reconstruct the documents she destroyed.

        When in a meeting later about this, I brought my notes. HR asked for them and seeing original paper, asked if they were the only copy with a smile on her face. I said yes, but I had a photocopy of everything at home. But I don’t know that your situation is as hostile as mine was. Maybe running the red flag up the pole politely will do the trick. Before anyone asks, HR was fired after I resigned and I declined an exit interview so it wasn’t me.

        You have to decide if this will help you, but I would document everything you are doing for her, the written instructions you have created, and that other employees are following her lead. If you can, write down the number of interruptions you get in a day. I got 47 once. I had a steno in my top drawer tracking it. I wrote the date on the top of a page, and then the time at each request. See if you can politely ask for a supervisor to take over for one week to “assess” the situation and offer a solution to you based on their observations.

        1. No Green No Haze*

          When I answered her with the performance issues I was seeing, HR kicked me under the table and I kicked HR back.

          You’re my hero.

      5. Busy*

        You’re going to have to go back to your boss and ask them to (politely) explain to you how they expect you to utilize your time. I would go in with specifics like how often Mary needs to use this program to do her job and what that means for what you are spending your time doing. And then politely and respectfully point out that doing this for her is a very keen part of your skill set. Because to be clear, what they are asking is for you to literally stand beside and walk her through the use of this program every single time she needs to use it. Which means they are paying two people to do that one job at that moment – and I am not seeing that they are understanding that. And since this seems to be their solution for her accommodation, which is totally fine, then they need to put someone in that position whose skill set is good for walking people patiently through the same actions every day. Like you wouldn’t have taken this job knowing you would have to walk someone through a program to do their job every single day right? I mean, that is more a role for a professional disability helper – as in you are helping her with her disability and not actually doing a function of work in the role you were hired. And I think it is important to press the difference to them about that. It is one thing to train new people and then go back to your job. It is another to do what they are asking you to do – which is actually much more caregiver than they realize.

        And don’t fall into that trap of efficiency, either. Efficiency is just the fast track to burn-out. Ask me how I know.

        1. Busy*

          * And then politely and respectfully point out that doing this for her is a NOT very keen part of your skill set

        2. Flinty*

          Thank you, this is especially helpful! I do think I need to point out that regardless of the fact that I’m still managing to meet my goals, this is really, really not a good use of my time. And also hint at the fact that I would not have taken this job had I known this would be expected of me as a job duty. (I’m not in IT for a reason! I really do not have the patience.)

      6. 99 lead balloons*

        Not in HR, but my understanding is that accommodations for a disability (I’m sure brain injury qualifies) have to be *reasonable*. While it’s great that they want to make accommodations for Mary, assigning you to be her accommodation (especially without telling you or asking you if you were ok with that!) doesn’t strike me as reasonable. Use that word, “reasonable” when you approach your boss and consider looping in HR because that is going to be the key word here. It’s not reasonable to force another employee to be another person’s accommodation, especially when it disrupts your ability to do your job.

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          And also consider using the word “sustainable,” as in “your solution is not sustainable in the long run, b/c what happens when I go on vacation, or get sick, or have car trouble, and can’t be in the office? What if Mary’s problems worsen, taking up even more of my time, so that I start to fall behind in my own work?” If it’s safe to do so, maybe you can help them do some forward thinking about how leadership’s current choice could play out in potential future less-than-ideal situations?

    6. Scarlet*

      “Oh, I’m not sure I remember actually. It’s been a little while since I’ve referenced that and I wouldn’t want to give you wrong information. I would say double check the guide – but if it’s not in there, you might have to play around with it and figure it out. Sorry I can’t help more!”

      Repeat as necessary.

      Seriously, I had to do this when I first started my career. Being young, you become the go-to tech person. It only ends when you play dumb.

  13. Anon here again*

    At new job, a coworker mentioned that I was the “woman that wore all black to the interview.” I just had a black dress on. Is that bad? Was I supposed to wear hot pink? What colors/what should women wear to interviews?

    1. londonedit*

      In my view: not at all bad, they’re just weird! Who remembers what people wore to their job interviews? I can barely remember what I wore to my own interviews by the time I’ve got the job! Wearing a black dress is so normal I can’t believe anyone would comment on it.

      1. MsPantaloons*

        A friend who was originally my boss (~5 years ago) recently reminded me of my interview outfit from 2014. She said, “well, I’m certain you wore flats. And then, let’s see, a pink dress or blouse?”

        It blew my mind. She explained that she always remembers what she was wearing for important events, and usually remembers what others were wearing too. It’s just part of what “sticks” about the memory for her.

        Anyway, I wouldn’t worry about it too much!

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          That’s how my mind works too – I remember people’s outfits. Not their names or even their faces, but what they wore. I love clothes so that may be my issue.

        2. Kathleen_A*

          I’ve known other people who always remember what other people were wearing (and what they themselves were wearing, too). They could do this even if it was something as ordinary as a black dress.

          So it could be as simple as that.

          1. Anne (with an “e”)*

            Some people are visual learners and I guess visual rememberers— This is something I have always done. I adore clothes and tend to associate certain memories with certain outfits. When I think back to certain events in my life I always remember what I was wearing and what other people were wearing. When I read this comment I thought, “Well, that’s not strange at all.” I know what I wore to interview for my college scholarship, for my first job interview, for my current job first interview. I know what I and others were wearing. I know what I wore the first day of work at every job I’ve ever had. I know what my supervisors were wearing. — Not strange to me at all. I pay attention to clothing. So, if I were interviewing you I can see you becoming “black dress woman” to me until I really learned your name. Now I truly struggle with remembering names, but visual cues are just the way my memory works.

    3. Rey*

      No, it is not bad to wear a black dress. That was probably the visual cue that they remembered from the interview, they same way someone might say, “the red-headed applicant” or “the really tall applicant”.

    4. Happy Lurker*

      I usually wear black. Many of the people I interview wear black. It’s clean and simple. No loud patterns to offend people.
      Coworker made a weird comment? Chalk it up to nervousness. Maybe they couldn’t figure out what to say and realized they put their foot in their mouth after the fact. Coworker keeps making strange comments…ugh. I expect we will hear about it here! ;)

    5. Duchess Honeybadger*

      Assuming the best about her, I did the same when I had a huge new group of onboarding students and hadn’t learned their names yet. “Tall Guy” “Cool Shoes Woman” “Ears” But I didn’t say them out loud, for cri-yi. Assuming the worst, ignore the haters. I bet you looked fly.

    6. Middle Manager*

      I’m thinking it was just a way to keep candidates straight if they had a large pool of people. I recently was on a panel (I know, they are terrible, but it’s government and we don’t get a choice) and took to referring to one candidate as “sports guy” because all the leadership examples he gave were from being on athletic teams and another lady as “the sales woman” because that was her main background and she was selling us hard in the interview. To me it was just a label to keep all the people straight. But maybe visual appearance/dress isn’t the best way to tag that since it could veer into stereotypes and gender issues.

      1. RandomU...*

        This is what I was thinking. Reminds me of a story that one of our HR people told me. Apparently there was something going on with an applicant that the interview notes were looked at by the legal team She had put something in the notes about ‘blue shirt’. The legal team jumped all over that comment in the notes and asked if it was code for something, why she wrote it down, what did it mean, etc. She had to produce her interview notes for other candidates that had similar comments of ‘green glasses’, ‘purple coat’, and other descriptors.

        She said she stopped writing down reminders based on appearance in her notes after that. She truly did use them as a way of referring to candidates and there was nothing nefarious about it.

    7. Anon here again*

      Is it too much black though to wear black dress, black panty hose, black shoes, and black purse? That’s what I wore and maybe that’s what coworker meant?

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        If you didn’t wear any jewelry, and the dress didn’t have any interesting structural details, then that’s a lot of uninterrupted black. Which is not a bad thing at all, as far as I’m concerned, but I guess some people might have a thing about black.

        1. Jadelyn*

          I think the black pantyhose is what tips it from “normal, if slightly somber, interview wear” into “office goth” to me. Black dress? Normal. Black shoes? Also very normal. Black purse? Super common. But pantyhose of any color is increasingly uncommon aside from certain very conservative fields, and black pantyhose with all the rest of that? Yeah, that’s a bit much.

          1. Emi.*

            Black pantyhose looks like funeral wear to me personally (unless you have dark skin, then it looks like it was the closest you could find to “nude” which sucks but obviously doesn’t reflect on you).

          2. VLookupsAreMyLife*

            Oh snap, I’ve been wearing all black to my new job for the past 3 months… and the hose are more like opaque tights. Yikes!

            1. Anon here again*

              My panty hose were sheer and had a pattern on them, but it was very small. (Little dots.)

                1. valentine*

                  I loathe pantyhose and not breaking the line is pleasing, so, when possible, I always wore opaque black tights with black skirts and shoes.

              1. Jadelyn*

                I agree – I have genuinely garnered astonished exclamations from my coworkers for wearing vivid colors once in awhile, because I literally am the office goth type. It wasn’t a judgment so much as understanding why someone might take specific note of that, because it’s out of the ordinary. There aren’t very many of us office goths running around out there, sadly. :)

          3. Business School Goth(?)*

            This makes me really sad. I’d feel uncomfortable going bare-legged (I have the uncomfortable combination of really pale skin and black hair, plus I feel that tights/hose have a slimming effect on me), and I have a weird body shape such that it’s easier to find skirts that fit than pants. Black tights were going to be my method of survival in the workplace!

            1. Snake in the Grass*

              I feel you, as I have the same combination. I’m not in the US, but I’ve always worn black (or even coloured) opaque tights with skirts in winter, and longer (tea length) skirts in summer, and it’s a really common combination here. I mean, last week I saw my bank’s lending manager and my lawyer, and both of them were in opaque black tights with skirts.

            2. Jasnah*

              I wouldn’t worry about it, black tights are a big thing in many countries and I think they’re super comfy in winter.

              1. londonedit*

                Yeah, opaque black tights with dresses and skirts are absolutely the norm here in the UK! I’ll admit I’m always a bit confused about what ‘hose’ actually is (stockings??) as it’s not a term that’s commonly used here, but just about everyone wears opaque black tights to work pretty much all year round (hello, British summer!)

      2. SciDiver*

        That is a lot of black, and perhaps you could have added contrasting cardigan, or some jewelry, or just swapping the black panty hose for one in your skin tone to make it less uniform, but I think this is just your coworker making an odd comment. I’ve spent some time working in technical theatre and performing arts so lots of my work clothes are completely black outfits–nothing weird about it!

      3. Alianora*

        Imo it’s definitely on the darker side of normal, but it’s not out there enough that someone should comment on it, especially since it was a dress! Unless your makeup was also super dark or the style of dress was outside of normal business wear. Probably your coworker didn’t mean anything by it.

        I wear a lot of black (and gray) myself so my purses are all some shade of cognac, because I like having a little contrast. If you feel self conscious about it, maybe an idea to consider.

        Re:black pantyhose/tights/stockings I’m actually surprised people think that pushes you into office goth. That doesn’t stand out to me any more than the other items.

      4. Faith*

        Back when I was in college, we had a “Professional development” class, and we were taught that black should be reserved for “weddings and funerals”. According to the professor, the interview attire should be navy, charcoal, or gray. While this rule always seemed overly rigid to me, what you are describing does sound like a funeral type attire. I think that “nude for you” hose and a pop of color elsewhere (maybe a light scarf?) would make it a bit less severe.

      5. RabbitRabbit*

        Yeah, I think it might be the black everything that did it. That could look somber.

        I work in a teaching hospital, and we have resident interviews where for several years, everyone wore a black suit (different color shirt). I’d occasionally see someone with a gray or some other color and mentally joke that they must have missed the memo that said black suits were the thing to wear. I would bet good money that their interviewers used suit color to at least informally identify those candidates.

        1. unrecognizable*

          We had a guy interview here a coupe years back that wore a black suit and an orange tie. Kudos to him for thinking “Hey, orange is one of their company colors” but…a black suit & orange tie is the uniform of the security/front desk team.

          This wasn’t held against him, obviously, but he must have been mortified when he walked in the door.

        2. Close Bracket*

          At the extremely large hiring event for the job that I currently hold, at some point I realized that the applicant pool was a sea of black suits. I wore plum.

      6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Lydia Deetz, that you?

        It rings in alternative/gothic in my mind given my background but it’s not going to be a “bad” thing. This is the PNW though, so other places may be put off by it more so than places in this area, it’s just a Tuesday, up here.

      7. Close Bracket*

        IOW, she accurately described your outfit. If you had worn all yellow and she described you as “the candidate who wore all yellow,” I would say that you are reading in sentiments that are not there. However, in my experience as a lifelong all black wearer, it’s extremely likely that there was some implied criticism. There might not have been! You are still new and don’t know these people well enough to know whether they judge people who wear all black. I would file this away as Schrödinger’s comment. It May have been a neutral aside about a factual description that helped them remember you in much the same way as “the very tall interviewee” or it may have been an implied judgment. But you don’t know that right now. So let it go.

    8. Marion Q*

      I don’t think that’s bad; it’s very common actually? I wore black suit or black blouse+trousers. And I also notice women who come for interview in my office wearing black or other dark colours, like navy, grey, or brown. Those who wear light colours usually wear white, cream, or light brown.

    9. ATX Language Learner*

      I think they were just referring to you as the person who wore the black dress to identify who you were. Nothing wrong with a black dress. It would be like if they referred to be as the woman who has red hair. I don’t think their comment was weird.

    10. jDC*

      What?? Maybe I am biased because i live in black but a black dress causes this? Really? Black is totally professional.

    11. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Black/Neutrals are the old norm.

      I wear prints myself. Reminds me…I haven’t seen my fox blouse in awhile, fml. That’s what I wore to my last round of interviews. It was a hit.

      But I think she was just being a bit awkward at best, it’s nothing wrong but it does stand out a bit since it’s not what everyone does. Most of our interviews are pretty across the spectrum of colors and prints/patterns.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yep! It has tiny foxes printed on it.
          If you google Fox Blouse Torrid, you’ll see what I mean =)

    12. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      It might have nothing to do with you, but everything to do with what the other candidates were wearing. They may have both, coincidentally, worn more colorful outfits.

    13. Former Church Lady, now a Fed*

      I have one suit, that while now too big, doesn’t look too bad. That baby gets brought out for all kinds of formal things, like interviews. I have a bright blue shell, a green blouse, and a couple of other things to wear under it. I also have some great pins/brooches from the Met Store that I use. The pin/brooch almost always is an icebreaker that people mention. But, really, most people are just “dressed up” for an interview and it’s never been memorable for me. I think more memorable is one of the interns that came in for his interview in sweats!? What!?

    14. Anoncorporate*

      Were they criticizing you, or just describing what you wore? When people try to remember a bunch of people without knowing their names, they tend to latch onto what they are/were wearing. A black dress is normal to wear to an interview (as long is it’s not too tight or revealing.)

    15. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I hope it’s not a problem these days. 90% of my office appropriate clothing is black, or black and white. For one thing, it’s hard to get plus size clothing in my price range that is anything other than black. And I’ve just always liked black and white.

    16. person who hires*

      I think it was a “how they remembered you” not necessarily a comment on your dress. Of my current staff I have “girl who really likes ice cream” and “girl’s whose dog barked during the skype call” and “guy we thought might not fit in the office, he’s so tall”. It just how we remember specific people during the hiring process. I wouldn’t much thought into it.

  14. Susan K*

    Part of my job as a teapot designer involves reviewing documents that are prepared by teapot makers and sending them back for corrections if necessary. They are important for regulatory compliance and contain data that is used in regulatory reports.

    About 30% of these documents have to be sent back to the teapot makers to redo something and 40% need simple corrections that I can make on the spot. Some errors are because people don’t know or misunderstand/misremember what they’re supposed to do, but the vast majority are poor attention to detail, like not including the TPS cover sheet or selecting the wrong type of chocolate on a drop-down menu (which affects calculations). By the time I get the documents for final review, they’ve already been reviewed by a peer and a manager, but the other reviews aren’t catching these errors.

    Correcting so many errors adds hours to my workload every week. I’ve discussed this with my manager, and he seems unhappy about the large number of errors, but hasn’t done anything about it. I am not the teapot makers’ manager, so all I can do is keep sending documents back to them for corrections. Sometimes, they don’t even fix the errors on the first try. I’ve told my manager that I would like to work with the teapot makers’ manager to help improve the quality of the teapot makers’ work, but he hasn’t taken me up on it yet, so I want to ask again a little more assertively and come prepared with recommendations for how to accomplish it.

    What I don’t want is for their manager to decide that I need to spend hours personally tutoring each teapot maker — both because I don’t have time and because I honestly don’t think that will help, since most of the errors are due to poor attention to detail. There are detailed instructions for preparing these documents, but a lot of people skim/rush through them or don’t read the instructions because they think they remember. A few months ago, I sent an e-mail to all of the teapot makers with a list of the most common errors and how to prevent them, and there has been no change in the error rate. I’m thinking maybe the long list wasn’t effective because (1) it was too much information at once and (2) since I sent it to everyone, they all probably thought someone else was the culprit (in reality, they all make errors, even the top performers). Some of my ideas include:

    – A weekly focus area where they do an extra check for a specific issue (e.g., week 1: check every TPS report to make sure it has a cover sheet before sending it for review; week 2: check to make sure the type of chocolate on the order form matches the type of chocolate used in the calculations). This would have to be directed by the manager because I don’t have the authority to demand it.

    – Making a comprehensive checklist for each type of document that must be completed prior to submitting for review. This would also have to be directed by the manager.

    – Sending each person a list of his or her top three types of errors so they know what to focus on.

    – Sending each person a list of errors he or she has made on each type of document in hopes of, I guess, guilt-tripping them into improving.

    – Sending a weekly report of errors to the teapot makers’ manager and hoping he takes some action on his own.

    Any other suggestions?

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      All of that sounds like a lot of extra work for you! Except possibly the checklist, which could be a one-time thing – that’s the one I would focus on.

      Do you have the authority to reject the docs, rather than fixing the errors? Not that you expect them to be perfect necessarily, but you should be able to send them back if you’re spending too much time on work that someone else should have done in the first place.

      See if you can set some benchmarks for work that you can fix vs work that you can’t, and then if there are too many errors (or the errors are too significant, or you’re spending too much time), send it back to the owners so they can fix them themselves. That will have the double benefit of teaching them what good documentation looks like, and freeing up your time so you can focus on your own part of the job.

      1. Susan K*

        Yes, I could reject (send back) the documents for all of the corrections rather than fix the simple ones myself, but it actually takes more of my time to write a note explaining what to correct, keep track of the documents that I’ve sent back for corrections, follow up to make sure I get them back (sometimes I have to ask several times), and re-check them when I get them back — at which point they still might not be correct and I have to start the process over again. That’s why I usually correct the smaller errors myself and only send back the ones that require significant rework. I feel sort of guilty when I fix them myself because I know the teapot makers won’t learn if they don’t know they’re making mistakes, but sometimes I just can’t afford to spend the extra time to send the documents back.

        1. Matilda Jefferies*

          I wouldn’t even give them notes on what to correct, to be honest. (Although I realize you may not have that kind of leeway!) In my ideal world, I would say something like “I fixed X errors on the first page, but I can see that there are still significant errors on the following pages. Here’s your document back, along with the beautiful checklist that I created – please send it back once the errors are fixed and the checklist is complete.”

          And as far as getting the docs back – do *you* need them back in order to complete your work? What happens if they never come back to you?

          I don’t know your process or requirements obviously, but it sounds to me like you’re doing a lot of hand-holding that maybe you shouldn’t be doing. In addition to whatever “teaching people to fish” you might be doing with checklists and controls and whatnot, you might also want to track how much time you’re spending on fixing other people’s errors. Then you can show that to your own manager and ask if that’s an appropriate use of your time. Good luck!

          1. Susan K*

            I give them notes on what to correct because if I don’t, they often don’t get corrected the first time around. Often, one error affects other things, so there is more to fix than the original error. It probably would be more effective to keep sending them back until everything is fixed, but it would also be much more painful and time-consuming for me to have to check the documents repeatedly and keep track of what still needs to be fixed. Plus, we are all on the same team here, and I don’t think it would go over well for me to intentionally withhold information about what needs to be fixed just to make it more difficult for the teapot makers.

            I do need to get the documents back in a reasonable amount of time. I have to scan and send them to the document retention team, which I can’t do until everything is correct. More importantly, I use the data in these documents to do calculations for reports to regulatory agencies, so I need to make sure all of the data in the documents is correct before I run my calculations and generate my reports, because if I don’t, my reports will be wrong, and we could get cited or penalized by regulatory agencies.

      2. Construction Safety*

        Yeah, back in the old days of programming, I’d throw a bunch of card in, wait a while, & it would run to the first error, then I’d get the cards back. Rinse-repeat until I could get it going.
        Wrong TPS, send it back. Wrong chocolate, send it back. Rinse-Repeat, Ad Nauseum
        Make it painful for them, right now it isn’t.

    2. LCS*

      Stewardship report? Like track the number and type of corrections you’re making weekly/monthly and present this tally in graph form, showing the trend over time. It could either come directly from you to the teapot makers, or you give it to the teapot makers’ manager and she presents it to her team. Set a target for reduction and use this to track progress against the goal.

      And while I don’t like calling out individuals on performance reports, I’d have a second graph in the background that shows number of mistakes by person, so that between yourself and the manager you can work to provide more focused coaching to the worst offenders.

      I’m a big fan of the “what gets measured gets managed” school of thought, especially for something like this which is pretty easy to convert into numbers.

      1. Susan K*

        The difficulty with this is that there is a big lag time — weeks or even months — from when the documents are prepared to when I get the documents for review, so I can’t track the error rate in real time. I hesitate to make comparisons between different teapot makers because some of them prepare more documents than others, since preparing the documents is only part of their job and some of them work more on non-document-related tasks, and some do more work overall than others. Some of the best performers have relatively high numbers of errors, even though it amounts to a lower percentage of the documents they prepare. However, it’s not really possible for me to calculate individuals’ error percentages because most documents have input from multiple people in highly variable proportions, and different types of documents have varying levels of complexity. I don’t want the people who prepare a disproportinate number of documents to get penalized for having more errors than people who just avoid working on documents whenever they can.

        1. krysb*

          What I would do, on top of the checklist suggestion above, would be tracking the types of errors and how often they occur. Assuming you have some form of authority or that someone with authority would back you up, the idea would be for everyone to work to eliminate errors during creation or as close to creation as possible.

        2. Gumby*

          I can’t track the error rate in real time
          It might still be worth it even if the data is a little out of date. History shows that they are not likely to have made a huge improvement in the error rates on their own. The only thing the time lag does is mean that you have to give it a little time before expecting to see improvements. But if you don’t start now, in 6 months you’ll be in the same situation. Whereas if you start tracking now and tell them the results in a month, maybe there will be a slight improvement in 6 months.

          Some of the best performers have relatively high numbers of errors, even though it amounts to a lower percentage of the documents they prepare.
          You can report it as # of errors per report then. Or # of errors per page. Just as general information – not tying it to performance reviews or anything.

          1. Susan K*

            I already do track the errors; I have a spreadsheet where I note who made the error and what the error was, and I divide them into 10 general types of errors (plus “other”) and track who made which error type(s) for each document. For each document, I also track whether they had simple errors that I could correct on the spot, had to be sent back for rework, both, or no errors.

            The lag is why, even though I sent the e-mail with information on the most common errors and how to prevent them a few months ago, I couldn’t really tell whether or not it made any difference until just recently when I started reviewing documents that were prepared after my e-mail.

            I don’t think there’s really a meaningful way to compare different people that wouldn’t take an excessive amount of time. If I count # of error per report, I would have to spend extra time looking through the document to figure out everyone who worked on each document (which is sometimes every teapot maker we have). An how do I count it when Joe and Jane did 5% of the document combined and didn’t make any errors, but Mary did the other 95% and made one small error? Or when Kate made a simple, 5-minute document without an error, while John did 90% of a complex document that took a week and made two errors? The data won’t be meaningful unless I spend an excessive amount of time trying to quantify the exact contribution of each teapot maker, and the goal is to save me time.

            Really, the only metric that’s meaningful to me is percentage of documents that I have to spend extra time correcting.

    3. Scarlet*

      Oof. Those suggestions sound like a lot of work. Is it an option to let the ball drop? Just let the errors go through enough that the issues start being noticed by your managers?

      Sure – they will be probably say, “why didn’t you catch these?” At which point you can point to maybe 10-15 errors you DID catch. I have to imagine it would be corrected one way or the other at that point.

      1. Susan K*

        I have reflected a lot on whether or not I truly need to review these documents in so much detail, and I have concluded that yes, I do. It is my job. I am signing my name to them as the final reviewer who verified that they are correct. I have received a lot of praise from my manager for reviewing them thoroughly and catching so many errors — it’s something that he considers as part of the difference between being good at the job and being great.

        These are pretty important documents with a lot of potential consequences for errors. They are required for regulatory compliance, and I prepare reports to regulatory agencies that are based on data in these documents. One small error can cause the results to be off by a factor of 100 or more, and if I use the incorrect data in my reports, my data will be off as well. These documents have potential legal significance, so even if errors don’t make any difference now, they could still become problems years from now during a lawsuit. They could also have PR significance, because if we get cited or fined by the regulatory agency for reporting inaccurate information, it could easily be spun into a story about us trying to cover up something that is harmful to consumers.

        1. Melissa*

          When the docs come to you, they have already been peer-reviewed, and signed off on by a manager. Those are the folks you should be kicking these errors back to. They signed off, and passed errors on to you. And tracking that would be faster, right? The manager who originally signed off on a teapot report should be responsible for getting the errors fixed. not you.

    4. President Porpoise*

      Stop enabling them. You are the Band-Aid on a problem that won’t go away if you keep fixing it on their behalf. They have NO motivation to change, currently.

      Will it take more work? Yes, at least for now. The hope is to improve the process so that in the future you aren’t devoting so much time to fixing their screw-ups.

      If you have an automated system that you’re conducting your audit in, can you pull metrics? Can you see how many errors these people are making, and what type of errors they are? If so, build a report and send it monthly to their managers (and yours). They need to see where the gaps are.

      You will not be successful at changing the culture until you can make your problem THEIR problem. The system is working from them as is – why would they change it?

      1. President Porpoise*

        Also, on your metric – show the responsiveness rate. How many of those corrections are being made as requested? Who are the worst offenders? Data drives results.

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      Is it possible to modify the form the teapot makers are filling out in some way that would reduce their choices? I’m thinking of drop-down menus for certain sections, if the answers to those sections are routine and limited in number. You could even consider having drop-down menus for certain kinds of boilerplate words and/or phrases, even for free-text sections.

  15. Free Meerkats*

    A thread seen on Twitter earlier this week, anonymized:

    [poster 1] Every so often the comments at Ask A Manager (and sometimes even the letter answers) really drive home how little respect the business/office-work class has for ANY other kind of work, and how little understanding they have of how they work. And man is it not pretty.

    [poster 1] Like I realize nobody following me is likely to be pulling that crap so I’m preaching to the choir but MAN does classism go totally unnoticed and unqueried, and by the same people so quick to notice the slightest hint of sexism or racism too. (As they should be!”

    [poster 1] And obviously it’s an aspect of classism that will intersect fast with sexism and racism and ablism while I’m at it: who’s most likely to be doing the jobs that are dismissed and framed as “easy” and “not stressful/skilled/complex”? Women and PoC? Why yes. And disabled people.

    [poster 1] But it will also exist on its own and is still crap.

    [poster 2] I try to bring some brown collar perspective when I comment.

    Thoughts?

    1. ThatGirl*

      Without context it’s hard to comment. We’re such a varied group, there’s no hivemind here. I think if either of those people notice classism, it’s great to call it out.

      1. anon moose, anon mouse*

        There is a hivemind. I only comment frequently because you get piled on if you disagree with the groupthink or say something disagreeing with a frequent poster. There’s been threads where I’m told that I should know better because Long Time Poster isn’t like that, so there’s also this expectation that commenters should know every person and opinion.

        A lot of the time it feels like performance hivemind wokeness on this site that only focuses on certain issues but ignores others (or goes to such extremes to be Woke that it does more harm than good).

        2. Former Retail Manager*

          Way late to the Friday thread, but yes, I certainly agree. Sometimes the commenters here are just.too.much. And can tend to take things to extremes when it’s not necessary. Overall, I still find this blog to be more helpful than not, and I’ve directed multiple people to it, with the caveat to at least start by focusing on Alison’s advice rather than the multitude of comments.

      2. I want to be anon for this*

        There is a hivemind that does not welcome diverse thinking. This bog is very left wing and I believe intolerant to conservative ideas.

        Going anon for this because… yeah

        1. ThatGirl*

          That’s kind of funny considering the comment I was replying to was essentially a criticism that the commenters aren’t left wing enough.

          Also: human rights are not up for debate.

    2. LCL*

      …you have reinforced my belief that not being on twitter at all was the correct one. Some subjects are best covered by short limited conversations. Others need more than 140 characters at a time for a decent discussion.

    3. Iris Eyes*

      Yes, this site is tailored to office environments. It doesn’t propose to be an all encompassing every job everywhere.

      Some of the things are pretty applicable to anyone and the commentariate is pretty good at pointing out when an industry might not follow the same norms.

    4. LGC*

      Like, it’s…not wrong?

      I think the person who went on the tweetstorm is overstating it SOMEWHAT. Granted, I’m part of the hivemind myself, but it doesn’t feel like most people here have contempt for people who work “nonprofessional” jobs, which it kind of feels like they’re saying.

      But also, there ARE often little microaggressions like, “Just got my first real job!” (Because being a camp counselor/scooping ice cream/flipping burgers isn’t a “real” job.) And I think the vast majority of people are aware that the site biases towards “white collar” work, in terms of advice and norms.

      Honestly, as someone who supervises people who work a nonprofessional job, I think it’s more obliviousness. I think that the kind of person who comments on AAM is often focused on building their career and doesn’t REALLY think that flipping burgers isn’t worthy of respect (I hope). They just think of their own experience being a barista at Starbucks in college until they graduated and set off on their career path of painting Game of Thrones themed chocolate teapots or teaching llamas how to tap dance.

      (And poster 2 is fighting the good fight!)

      1. Jadelyn*

        I feel like the “real job” thing is more reflective of the way the world as a whole treats non-white-collar labor roles, than any particular bias unique to this space. When all the examples of “real grown-up adults” we see in the media show people working in office jobs, and politicians literally portray retail and service jobs as “just” something for teenagers to work after school (so that they don’t have to confront the unliveability of the current minimum wage…), I think it’s pretty understandable for younger folks to have that “real job” mentality. And if I’m not mistaken, Alison has specifically called that out before and asked that people not do that?

        1. Liza*

          This is an excellent point. I think the whole “real job” notion is something that often gets used with varying degrees of irony, or even disbelief from my own generation, who see any sort of progression from those sorts of roles as a huge, unexpected step, or even a miraculous mistake (hello, impostor syndrome).

          And let’s face it, the kind of norms and standards one finds in an office environment are wildly different from things like shop work and customer service. One of my best friends recently received a promotion to an office position after 18 years with the company. He is positively floored to be earning a living wage, astounded by the fact that colleagues are not reprimanded for glancing at their phones between tasks, and finds the job laughably easy after over 20 years working customer service positions. (I believe somebody wrote a blog about the bizarre feeling of moving from fast food to office work and finding it mind blowingly cushy.) Given how much society likes to push the notion that white collar jobs are somehow more deserving of the benefits bestowed upon them, I can see why other workers might feel distinctly cut off from the experiences described by many office workers on threads such as this. I don’t think there’s any harm in bearing in mind that things like salary negotiation, promotion, benefits, and the luxury of leaving a bad job feel out of reach of many, but I will say that I think Alison and the commentariat as a whole are good at recognising that difference when questions from blue collar workers crop up.

          1. CMart*

            Restaurant industry to office worker here and I think you summarized it pretty well. I will say that any time anyone left my serving/bartending gigs to do anything “career” worthy (office job, nursing, HVAC apprenticeship etc…) we would congratulate them on getting a “real” or “big boy/girl” job. And I’m not even sure it was a classism irony, moreso that they were generally moving on to a place where you probably couldn’t be getting high in your car with your manager before your shift and playfully insulting each other’s sex lives while out of customer earshot. I didn’t ever engage in those kind of shenanigans in my decade+ in the industry but being in that environment certainly gave a certain feeling of being able to really let your guard down/be unfiltered.

            It sometimes gets patronizing in here when discussing “respect” – my mind goes to the LW who [got an offer pulled? got fired? lost an internship? the details are escaping me, because he was rude to the CEO’s wife on public transit] and didn’t seem to understand that you need to treat people as people and therefore deserving of respect. Lots of “I treat the janitor the same as the CEO” kind of narratives about how incredibly gracious we all are for being kind and respectful to even the most humble of folk.

            The only other big disconnect I see are when discussing hiring norms. Everyone rails against GUMPTION and how out of touch it is to just *gasp* show up in person to ask for a job, but that’s still very much the reality for a lot of industries. Lots of blue collar/service industry work is still very much a “look you in the eye and see if your handshake feels right” world. And though people will point out the differences there, you still get a lot of “okay yeah but still…. maybe don’t? Because GUMPTION is BAD?”

          2. Elizabeth West*

            I think of a *real* job as one where I make a livable wage, have good benefits, and good managers who aren’t power-tripping arseholes or wimpy do-nothings. That could be an office job, or it could be a blue-collar job.

            I mean, there are plumbers who make a crap ton more money than I ever have and can actually afford to retire, plus without them, we would all be drowning in sewage, so yeah, that’s a real job.

            ♪ ♫ It’s a dirty job but someone’s gotta do it….whoooah oh oh ohh oh! ♪

            1. Anoncorporate*

              Yeah…if you’re in the U.S. and work a service or retail job, you actually congratulate and are happy for those people who manage to “escape” the service or retail world. Because IT SUCKS. We are currently not an economy where someone can make a comfortable living working a job that requires them to be on their feet a million hours a day though we should be. It’s also, most unfortunately, the norm to receive verbal (and maybe other types of) abuse from both your boss and the customers you service, and there isn’t a lot regulating that. A lot of businesses, as someone pointed out, tend to skirt the law when it comes to giving their employees proper healthcare and sick leave, because they know their employees can’t afford to lose their jobs if they complain.

            2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

              I tend to think of a “real job” as an aspirational goal. It’s not the actual work, it’s whether you have security, benefits, and responsibilities. That’s not to say that somebody working jobs that do not provide those things don’t have real jobs in the sense that their labour is trivial or unimportant, or that their jobs don’t have meaning. But I imagine that most people in that position would rather have a “real job” where they are treated like valuable contributors and compensated accordingly.

      2. league.*

        This was really helpful to me. I have the privilege to see my first jobs (babysitting, pizza delivery, etc.) as preludes to my “real” job, and I never thought about the fact that that would of course be insulting to people who do those lines of work full-time. Thank you for saying this.

      3. JamieS*

        I’m not a fan of the term “real job” but I think there needs to be a distinction that whether or not someone considers something a “real job” has as much to do with that person’s circumstance as what the job actually is. This isn’t perfect but for me the distinction is whether or not the job is intended as a career and/or is intended to pay the employee’s bills or noticeably contribute to bills as opposed to just a job for a little spending money.

        For instance, I wouldn’t consider my weekend retail job in high school to be a “real job” because it was just to give me some spending money since my parents paid my bills. However, I would consider the same job to be a “real job” for my co-worker who was using it to pay her mortgage, utilities, and buy food for her family.

        1. CMart*

          I agree. I actually had the exact same job change in my mind from “fun gig” to “my real job” because I went from using it to pay for my minimal teenage expenses/padding my savings account to actually relying on it to live an independent life. My attitude about it shifted fairly dramatically – I always took my jobs seriously but once it was a “livelihood” kind of deal I was no longer comfortable slacking off, cutting corners to get out early, trading away shifts or giving the impression that I didn’t want to work.

          This was serving and bartending, so I’m not embarrassed to say I was faffing around for a lot of my shifts and rushing to get out of there. Sidework is not anyone’s idea of a good time.

        2. Myrin*

          That’s an awesome distinction which I realise lines up pretty exactly with how I feel, too. Thanks for putting it into words so eloquently!

      4. LGC*

        This is why commenting early is a mistake – I want to reply to everything, and then I lose the thread.

        Anyway – I definitely don’t think that it’s as severe as the first poster made it out to be (and definitely not specific to AAM – it is a societal thing). And to be honest, I agree that the vast majority of people reading this consider service work just as valid as knowledge work. But I can also see how someone who wouldn’t pick up on that nuance and be aware that a lot of us are aware of our privilege can pick up the impression that poster 1 did.

        Plus, reading the tweetstorm again (okay, it’s more of a tweetshower), I picked up on the second post:

        Like I realize nobody following me is likely to be pulling that crap so I’m preaching to the choir but MAN does classism go totally unnoticed and unqueried, and by the same people so quick to notice the slightest hint of sexism or racism too. (As they should be!”

        I’m going to just put my foot in it – but I’ve noticed that in a lot of progressive spaces (including here), I feel like there’s an expectation that if you’re socially attuned to one thing, you should be socially attuned to everything and if you’re not that’s a huge failure. I can’t help but wonder if part of poster 1’s anger (for lack of a better word) is disappointment that the AAM community isn’t perfect. I’m not entirely sure how to further fix this, since it generally seems like people are welcoming of blue-collar employees.

    5. Jadelyn*

      I mean…not all environments are going to be all things to all people. AAM is primarily about the working environment and norms of an office. Most of those who read are those who are in that demographic, because we find significant value in this site due to how specifically relevant it is for our working lives. So to me, it stands to reason that a good portion of the commentariat here will be unaware of working environments and norms of non-white-collar jobs. I don’t think it’s entirely fair to dump on people for not knowing what they don’t know, when the subject at hand is something that’s just outside of their experience.

      Re the respect part, I disagree pretty strongly. In fact I can think of a number of regular commenters who make a point of calling out and countering bias against non-white-collar jobs when it does, on rare occasions, crop up. My fiance works a skilled blue-collar trade, so I’m generally pretty sensitive to white-collar folks being dismissive about other occupations and tend to get defensive fast, and it’s rare for that impulse to come out when I’m reading comments here. So I can’t say that what this person describes has been my experience in this space at all.

      I’d be really interested in any specific examples that they can point to, to see if there’s something I’ve been missing…but tbh, based on the specific wording, it feels a lot more like performative shit-talking for Woke Points, than a good-faith attempt at addressing a real issue.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        I think there is likely a larger number of white collar people posting on AAM. The fact is, white collar people are more likely to be sitting at their computer all day, and be able to check in quickly and read and make comments. Someone who takes care of plants for a living (as mentioned below) probably isn’t on a computer 9 hours a day, and can’t take the time to peruse AAM.

        I don’t think that means that the AAM commenters are being classist, just identifying with what they know. As others have said, when a particular non-white collar subject comes up, people are willing to reconsider different perspectives and address those topics appropriately.

      2. Kat is a dog person*

        I’ve been reading this blog daily for about two years and it has given me some excellent perspectives…and I’m a career bartender (in my 40’s and this is the only work I’ve ever done). I’ve seen some comments that seem a bit classist but I find the commentariat mostly awesome. I think it’s a matter of taking what’s relevant and leaving the rest. Perhaps the folks complaining are the type that want everything to be about them!

        1. Bob*

          Super late but I’d love to hear more about your job and what you do! If Alison is ever keen to do one of her interviews on you – that would be awesome :)

          Signed, someone who realised there is a lot more to being a fancy bartender after attending a cocktail making class once and learning a bit about all the behind the scenes work that goes into it. Now I know why they can be so expensive…

    6. DaniCalifornia*

      Interesting. I am not in the comments all day for every post but I’ve seen some instances of people who didn’t understand retail work offer suggestions that would not be helpful.

      The one thing that bugs me is seeing comments or reading letters that say my first “real” job. I get it, sometimes new college grads use it to distinguish between the PT retail job and an office job. But all jobs are real jobs. I think it minimizes the fact that there are some people who enjoy/like retail jobs or prefer customer service jobs over office jobs. Retail/customer service isn’t a stepping stone to a real job. But that’s my own personal pet peeve.

    7. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I imagine this was inspired by the letter from the person who does plant care? I didn’t think people were disrespecting that kind of work, but it’s legitimate to point out that some jobs have different kinds of stresses than others. (And I think it’s hugely problematic that stress is talked about as if it’s some sign of merit or importance.)

      1. Tinker*

        I think also there was a thing on a recent letter about an employee being late where some folks were very much on the “it being okay to be five minutes late is an office worker thing” deal, and posts on that subject tend often to attract that sort of commentary — sometimes a bit heated and having a tone of “your narrow view is unrealistic”. That might be a potential inspiration also.

        1. Tinker*

          (Personally I think it’s pretty much always been fairly clear that the advice not to ride people about a few minutes here and there is scoped to positions that don’t require coverage — but I’m perhaps not in the best position to evaluate how that looks from all angles as I’m pretty far on the rampant-lack-of-traditional-discipline end of office worker.)

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          Ah, if that was yesterday I missed it entirely — was off the computer from Wed evening onward due to food poisoning. But that wouldn’t surprise me.

        3. JamieS*

          I’ve noticed that back and forth too. However from what I’ve seen when people say it’s okay to be a little late it’s almost always prefaced with “if you work in an office” or is in response to a letter that either says or gives a very strong impression it’s an office job. People saying it wouldn’t be okay to be late at non-office jobs in reply to someone saying it’s okay to be a few minutes late when the topic we’re discussing is being late to an office job strikes me as unhelpful and irrelevant. After all people can’t be expected to preface their posts with every situation where their advice isn’t applicable. If we did that every post would be novel-length.

      2. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

        I’m white collar office worker, but I thought there were a few responses to Plant Person that were like, but have you ever had a “real” job with “real” stress? While others were more kind and pointed out different kinds of stressors, or interpretations of the comments PP was complaining about. I also think, though, that plenty of people called out those more negative type of comments.

    8. Delphine*

      If they’re going to claim that the comments and answers to the letters are regularly classist and don’t question classism, they should offer up some context.

      1. Marthooh*

        The “preaching to the choir” bit makes it obvious that they weren’t speaking to us and assumed that their followers don’t need context.

    9. Moray*

      There are many comments here that boil down to: “that’s a huge red flag, leave immediately, do not pass go, do not wait until you have another position lined up.” And plenty of commenters who find it unbelievable–to the point of condescension–that people would put up with any kind abuse at their workplace.

      It comes from a ~lot~ of privilege to assume that everyone has the freedom to just up and quit. Some of us need that job–even when it involves bullying, harassment, or unsafe conditions–to eat food and pay rent.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Hell, I’ve been in white collar jobs that I couldn’t quit without having another job lined up – I still can’t do that really. So I usually sympathize with the folks who write in and put up with horribly abusive behavior because if I were in that situation (and thank heavens I’m not anymore), I would have to as well.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Same; I think it’s better to frame it as start looking rather than omg quit now. Depending on location, it can take a while to find something else. But that’s about getting the ball rolling, not dancing out the door while singing, “Take this job and shove it!”

      2. Who Plays Backgammon*

        You just described me, with my abusive boss. We just had a training about workplace harassment, and by their definition she has definitely created a hostile work environment. However, I’m still recovering from the great recession like so many, and I’m way past the point where I can say, OK, I’ll temp till I find a job. Shameless editorializing: maybe if we had national health care I’d take the risk, but not as it stands now.

    10. Brit box*

      Sound pretty accurate to me. This site needs to have a “upper-middle-class office manager” disclaimer, it’s really only relevant to a small slice of the working population. And that isn’t necessarily clear unless you’ve been reading here for a while. But the bias is real and does come across pretty obviously.

      1. Myrin*

        I mean, my family background is 100% what Americans (? or is that English-speaking people in general?) call “blue collar” (the phrase/distinction doesn’t exist here) and my two part-time jobs are in a drugstore and in the kitchen of an inn but I still read something that’s relevant to me on here almost every day. I get what you’re saying but I also think there’s a lot of stuff which this site talks about regarding an office environment which is still helpful when you transplant it into another setting.

        1. Laura H.*

          I think quite a bit of the roots of the advice are transferable. I work a very part time retail job and a seasonal gig. The advice about building rapport, and putting a good impression forward and communicating when I have an issue are essential to the jobs I do (heck even my volunteer gigs).

          1. curly sue*

            Same. I’m in academia, which has very different expectations than office work especially around things like face time and what ‘working hours’ mean, but the advice on dealing with co-workers and various social skills / office behaviours has been extremely useful. Academics tend to be an awkward lot at the best of times and I need all the help there that I can get.

          2. Patty Mayonnaise*

            Agreed – I work in the entertainment industry and some of Alison’s advice goes against our norms (which is nothing against Alison, she has freely admitted that industry is not her world) but I read this site every day and always find something I can apply in my work life.

        2. Reba*

          Myrin, this thread actually made me think of you! I was going to write that this site has several regular commenters with non-office jobs, including you, and that you offer a lot of insight from those experiences.

          1. Myrin*

            Oh wow, I’m experiencing that weird thing where I’m suddenly acutely aware that I sometimes feature in people’s thoughts without knowing anything about it! It’s so nice to hear I came to you mind in a discussion like that, thank you!

    11. kittymommy*

      Hmm, interesting. I think there may be some truth to that as this site does seem to be more skewed to office jobs/work, but the very nature of internet commentary can get a little hive-minded, though the people here I think try harder than most to be open-minded and “outside-the-box”. I’m not sure I totally agree the implication regarding sexism, racism, or ableism as it’s been my impression that commenters (and Alison) actively try to take these points of view into account, it’s also possible I’m misunderstanding what the Twitter poster is trying to say.

      I will thank them for teaching me about “brown collar” I hadn’t hear that term before (or the others I found on Wikipedia). Apparently I am red collar.

      1. Cotton Headed Ninny Muggins*

        I popped over and looked at that wiki, I’m a former brown collar, now red collar worker. I had no idea that these other designations existed.

      3. MinotJ*

        Cool! I just learned that I’m purple-collar. Most of the “office” advice on AAM is spot-on for my lab, but laxity with start/end time is foreign to me – who is going to run these STAT samples if I feel like stopping for a bagel on my way in?

    12. Commenter*

      I think this Twitter thread raises a great point!

      I’m a relatively new reader, and have noticed that this site does skew white-collar, but have been pleased to see that people here do seem to call out white-collar bias when it occurs.

      I currently have a well-paying white-collar office job, but survived many years on retail, temp, and gig jobs, and am glad to have the additional perspective of those types of jobs. There is such a vast divide between the realities of people trying to make a living in these different job worlds, and it can be so frustrating to realize not everyone is aware of that.

      I love that this site seems to be filled with thoughtful people who seem fundamentally interested in hearing and understanding each other, rather than shouting past each other, however! This gives me some hope for humanity :)

    13. noahwynn*

      Wasn’t me on Twitter but I did have similar thoughts recently on the thread regarding the plant caretaker. Of course I face the same issues in my own office trying to explain to people why airline jobs outside of HQ are actually difficult and stressful at times.

    14. Frankie*

      Hmm. I do think a lot of commenters approach every letter as if it’s a white-collar job letter by default…and I do also think I’ve seen comments from time to time that suggest the commenter doesn’t know what it’s like to live paycheck to paycheck…

      But I see plenty of the opposite, too. IDK. I did a lot of “blue-collar” work as a kid and through college, and now I work “white-collar.” While I see some presumptions, I also see plenty of comments calling out those presumptions (like assuming anyone could up and leave a bad job environment, assuming everyone gets benefits, assuming workplaces are legally compliant and safe).

      But I mean there’s definitely a larger issue in our culture with being dismissive of jobs that aren’t “real” or aren’t “stressful enough” or whatever. So it makes sense that it shows up here, too. I get the feeling that plenty of commenters here have never experienced a really grueling job involving manual labor or cleaning up after others, and that does bleed over into the types of comments made.

    15. Anoncorporate*

      I’m sure the poster has a legitimate criticism but I wish they went into detail about exactly what the biases are. Usually, people who only experience one thing – and are only ever in the company who experience the one thing – don’t know what they don’t know about the other things…if that makes sense. So they are pretty ignorant.

      I’m also interested for my own reasons – I’m an office, white collar worker who, as part of my work, interacts regularly with blue-collar workers, retail, and service workers. Other than being a basically polite person, I try to be mindful of their schedules (which I know are more rigid and different than my schedule), and considerate. I would like to know what else I could be doing to be accomodating.

      1. Anoncorporate*

        FWIW, I’ve had my days in food service jobs, which in my experience was a sh**show. …so I definitely sympathize with people in this situation.

  16. Marcy Marketer*

    Nursing moms, how open are you about nursing in the office? As one of my meetings was supposed to end but looked like it was going to go over, I said that I had to leave for my next engagement (ie I had booked the nursing room). Would it have been appropriate to say that I had to go pump?

    1. ThinMint*

      Depending on who was in that meeting, I have been that explicit before. But it was with my female manager who I had a good rapport with or my all-female team. Ideally, I probably shouldn’t say that? IDK. I think what you said was fine.

    2. Hope*

      I think just saying you were leaving for your next engagement is fine. You don’t have to say you needed to go pump unless you want to say it. I don’t think it would be bad or TMI if you did say that, but it’s not strictly necessary.

    3. Dino*

      I don’t think you need to mention it unless someone pushes you to stay.
      Them: “Would you mind seeing if your next engagement can wait until we’re done? This is really important.”
      You: “I’m sorry but no, I need to go pump.”

        1. SpringIsForPlanting!*

          Ditto here.
          This will vary *wildly * based on your work culture, the work you do, the space you have available, and your own comfort, but I also, uh, took a lot of conference calls in the pumping room. “I will have to take this meeting/the rest of this meeting remotely”, set up my pump stuff, muted when I wasn’t talking, and made d**n sure there was tape over my webcam.

    4. Who the eff is Hank?*

      Personally, I would be open about it and say I have to go pump. There’s a weird stigma around pumping in our society (maybe because boobs are involved?) but I think it’s important to chip away at that stigma. Pumping is a totally normal thing that moms need to do to feed their babies and it shouldn’t be embarrassing to talk about.

      1. BethDH*

        It is important, but I also don’t think OP needs to feel like they have to be the one to fix that stigma. There’s enough pressure on pregnant/nursing mothers without making them feel guilty if they don’t want to be the Voice of Working Motherhood (not saying that’s what you were suggesting, just speaking from my own internalized guilt when I was in this situation and people would say similar things to your comment.

      2. angrywithnumbers*

        This was the tack I took I didn’t yell about it everytime I got up from my desk to do it, but if someone asked wanted to schedule a meeting at the time or a meeting was running over . I let them know that it was my pump time.

    5. Putting Out Fires, Esq.*

      I’m very open, I have to pump in the courthouse while I’m representing clients and drag my pump through security every day. I just straight up tell people that I have to be excused for a second, same as I would for going to the restroom. It’s not like you can really hold it. People I see all the time: the judge, the prosecutors, the bailiffs, my trial partner, I’ve told them from the beginning that I would be slipping out sometimes.

    6. Murphy*

      Definitely depends. If it was my immediate co-workers I would have said what I was doing. Outside the department, probably not. Not because there’s anything wrong with it, but because it’s not relevant.

    7. Ann Perkins*

      It depends who you’re with. I’m generally open about it if I’m trying to wrap up a conversation and get back to my desk – “sorry, gotta go pump now but I’ll send you that link we talked about!” type verbage. If it were a room full of people I wouldn’t. 1:1 with my boss who is a dad of 3 and knows I pump? I have no issue saying it – and I do think it’s good to help normalize it in the workplace.

    8. straws*

      I would have said something similar, and I definitely would clarify that it’s pumping if I was questioned about where I was going. Most people I’d be meeting with are well aware of my pumping schedule though, and I’m pretty vocal about normalizing nursing and pumping in general. I also pump in a shared office with male coworkers. I have a screen and we close the office door, but still… I’m probably on a fairly extreme end of the “open with pumping” spectrum. You may need to read your audience a bit, depending on the people you’re meeting with.

    9. Marcy Marketer*

      It varies for me… someone says they like my bag, and I might tell them it’s a pump bag, or something like that. I think it depends on how sassy I’m feeling or who I’m talking to. I tend to be more explicit with higher ups in my chain of command for some reason, I think to remind them why I leave and that I’m not just disappearing sometimes.

    10. Double A*

      I’m just explicit now because I need coverage for when I go pump. I don’t love that I have to announce it every time, but when I say when I need the coverage people are always supportive, and as a bonus it normalizes pu pong more. My workplace has gone through a ton of transitions so remembering to help me with my pumping breaks is not high on people’s priorities, but they are happy to do so when I say what I need. I work with a lot of people with kids though, and many with young families, so that helps

      1. Double A*

        Uh… Pumping, not pu pong! Darn phone posting. Though pu pong could describe what my baby did with her dirty diaper the other day.

    11. Alianora*

      My coworker who’s a nursing mom has been very open about it. Once we went to an all day, off-campus meeting and she set up a little minifridge/cooler that she had brought with her in the meeting room. We do have an 80% female office, but she’s open about it in front of our male coworkers too. I don’t think anyone views it as unprofessional.

      Just using “appointment” is fine, though!

    12. Abby*

      When I was pumping, I was the only woman (other than some student workers; academic scientist here) in an office of men, most of whom had kids and partners and were pretty committed to being egalitarian about this. It was important to me to push back on some of the stigma/awkwardness of talking about it, so while I wasn’t always “I need to go pump now,” on days when we were rescheduling meetings on the fly, I would say stuff like “I can come to lunch [where boss has just suggested the group continue this conversation] but I need to pump first… order for me and I’ll meet you there?”

    13. lost academic*

      This is now a thing for me and I have decided to be open and clear with what I am doing and when I need to do it so it becomes more normalized (which is desperately needed in my office/company). I’m cautious to not bring it up unless it’s needed (can’t make this in person meeting/need to change rooms/whatever) rather than in casual conversation but people need to be aware of how much time and organization it requires and that it’s A Part Of Life. And that it’s NOT EASY.

    14. LitS*

      I’ll admit that I felt awkward initially and tried to tiptoe around talking about pumping. The nursing room was five feet from my boss’s desk in a completely open office, and it only had frosted windows and no lock. It was also at the farthest corner from the kitchen, so I got to parade my milk and pump parts past all the glass-walled conference rooms, open desks, and reception area several times a day.

      In the end it became a badge of honor. People seemed impressed by my dedication, especially because they saw how much effort it took to prep, package, label, store, and clean everything. Pffffft…that’s not even half of it. I pumped exclusively for a year, so I pumped a LOT.

      You might come across the occasional person who treats it like a stigma or clearly doesn’t understand the urgency. But consider how many parents there are who’ve been through the same thing or supported someone going through the same thing. Yeah, I definitely got more empathy and encouragement in my office than anything else.

  17. bassclefchick*

    Well, the software release is Monday. Ready or not. I have a feeling next week is going to be rough. But, I found a bottle of Celtic Honey, so I’ll be fine!

    Anyone else have a tale of software releases that did/did not go well?

    1. Duchess Honeybadger*

      No, but I do have many, many tales of stuff breaking bad. And of drinking as a limited/temporary coping mechanism. Sounds like you got this. Good luck!

    2. KR*

      Not so much software releases per say, but I was responsible for implementing a time clock system at my last job. We only bought enough licenses for the staff who were hourly. I was going to need to work with our exec admin and HR to get the employee info and they were to be admins on the system but it was my project. The actual equipment & software came in when I was off for a week and I came back to find the exec admin had gotten a little over excited and tried to put every employee in the system including salaried staff who didn’t punch a clock, had run out of licenses, and then didn’t know what to do. I called the company and they couldn’t delete users because it’s payroll software as well (we were just using the time clock function & exporting the reports to payroll) so I had to “fire” all the salaried staff in the system so we had enough licenses and then I had to deal with seeing all these extra “fired” employee records in the system every time I logged in. Definitely could have gone better, though the exec admin apologized for not checking before she put in all the users.

    3. PharmaCat*

      Oh yeah. So upper mgmt decided it would be a great idea to release software on Christmas Eve. We all got the email on that day for early closing, unless you had client-facing business to complete. So of course all mgmt left immediately, totally crickets. How motivated do you think the programmers were to stay late and ensure high quality? In the lessons learned briefing, the Christmas Eve delivery date was front and center.

    4. A tester, not a developer*

      I’m still recovering from what should have been a super simple scheduled release… it was so easy that it was being used as a cross-training opportunity. It was until go live that we discovered that the new guy wasn’t authorized to do anything in Production. His trainer was on vacation; luckily after much drama we managed to get a hold of him. Once we solved that we discovered that the new guy didn’t just copy his Test code for Production; he wrote it again from scratch and made some typos.

    5. Human Sloth*

      Oh boy! Yes, I have a tale…

      – Health care environment – We spent many, many months leading up to a version upgrade. Mostly the upgrade was pushed through MSI, but we ended up having to go back and touch about 50 PCs to complete the upgrade. Within days we were getting tickets and calls about bug reports and failed applications. Turns out a specific portion didn’t work if it was installed on the same PC as another completely separate application. This wasn’t caught during our testing, because we use new installs to test on. HERE IS THE KICKER- the new version and the other offending application are from the SAME vendor. SMH!

    6. JHunz*

      As someone who does consumer software supporting hundreds of hardware products, I have many stories. Sometimes it’s regressions on old devices, sometimes it’s something that didn’t get tested sufficiently, sometimes it’s something that was tested to death but then updated right at the end for a bug fix and the bug fixes caused three new bugs that didn’t get noticed.

      Once I (personally) broke the auto-update check. We ended up doing some pretty interesting workarounds for that one that got most people to update again, but there are still thousands of people out there running that version.

    7. noahwynn*

      We tried to transition to a new software that basically runs our entire company earlier this week. It didn’t go well and they had to go back to the existing software. They’re trying again on Tuesday, fingers crossed.

  18. ThatGirl*

    I mentioned this briefly in the negotiation thread yesterday, but after six weeks of waiting, on Tuesday I was offered the internal job I’d applied and interviewed for! It’s still another four weeks or so until the move is final but I’m going to start having meetings and work on a transition plan. I’m excited because a) no more customer-facing and being yelled at b) it’s copywriting, which is much more my chosen career path c) even though it’s a lateral move and I just got a merit increase in March, they gave me a 5% raise! Which makes nearly 10% for the year!

  19. Frustrated Anon*

    I’m at new job for 3 weeks and it’s already started. “You’re quiet/You’re introverted/You’re being quiet/Sorry to be loud.”

    I’m just sitting at my desk, doing my work, doing training and already my coworkers are walking on eggshells around me. I never told them to be quiet, just because I am. I don’t care. I told them it’s fine, but they seem nervous around me. How do I fix this?

    1. Free Meerkats*

      “No need to try to be quiet just because I am. If I’m bothered by excess rambunctiousness, I’ll let you know.”

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      IMO you just keep not caring, but more difficult and important, don’t treat their making it a big deal like it is a big deal. If you just ignore it, they’ll probably relax and start acting like they did before you got there. If not, it’s on them, but the more you protest the more concerned they’ll be, even if you’re protesting that they shouldn’t be concerned! I don’t know why, but that’s often the way it works.

    3. Susan K*

      Oh, I hate that! I never know what to say when people tell me, “You’re so quiet!” Is that supposed to be an insult?
      Criticism? A compliment? They don’t usually apologize to me for being loud, though.

      1. Frustrated Anon*

        +1 Thank you. I will never understand why it’s socially acceptable to say “you’re quiet” when it would be rude to comment, “You’re so loud!”

        1. CMart*

          I think it’s an inelegant attempt at saying “I would like to talk with you but you do not seem to want to talk to me”.

          By proclaiming “you sure are quiet!” it’s giving you the opportunity to say “yep, it’s just my nature” or “actually I’m usually not I’m just really absorbed in this training material!” or whatever to indicate that you’re being not-chatty for reasons that are not due to not liking that person.

          I’m sure some people mean it as a dig, but my experience has mostly been that people say it because they think you’re being quiet AT them/because of them for some reason, and are hoping to make a friendly overture. It’s their way of saying “it’s okay to chat with me you know! I like you!”

      2. anna green*

        I hate it too! I also get the sarcastic, “come on Anna quit talking so much!” (laughter) when they think I am being too quiet. It always takes me by surprise because I don’t realize I am being quiet, because I’m, you know, listening to others. And then I feel so awkward and embarrassed, like how do you want me to respond to that. Am I supposed to apologize for not talking? And sometimes I am being quiet because I am shy and thanks for totally putting me on the spot and making everyone look at me. Super.

    4. Box of Kittens*

      I’ve gotten this, too. I agree with the above commenters – continue to ignore it since it’s not a big deal to you. But it may also help to engage in the chit chat from time to time. It takes me a long time to get to know people, especially coworkers, but those kinds of comments dropped way off once I started opening up a tad with small talk and “how was your weekend” type stuff.

      1. Frustrated Anon*

        I do, but if it’s quiet in the room, I feel nervous being the first one to talk. I’m afraid of bothering people , saying something wrong, or being “too loud.” It’s a vicious cycle.

        1. BethDH*

          A nod and a smile instead, perhaps? I don’t think Box of Kittens was saying you had to be the first to speak, though, just that having a quick greeting or go-to question can go a long way toward showing them that you’re fine with them talking.

          2. Box of Kittens*

            Also I think sometimes you just have to make those small social mistakes. You said something first and no one responded? You spoke too loud and someone called you out? That’s okay; it happens to everyone; no one is going to fault you for that. I have a feeling you’ll get much more comfortable after being at this place for a few months since you’ll learn everyone’s idiosyncrasies.

    5. KimberlyR*

      If they’re having a group conversation nearby, sometimes look up and smile when someone makes a joke or toss out a comment. Or if someone is passing your desk, maybe smile and say something like “hey, how’s your day going?” For someone who may be shy or introverted, these can be difficult. But they show that you don’t have an issue with their group conversations and that you are willing to talk to coworkers (so you don’t have a problem with coworkers talking amongst themselves.) I think its worth trying to not just say you don’t mind, but to also show it.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Since you’re so new…I wonder if they’ve had issues in the past before with someone getting angry at them and “stewing”, so they’re now on eggshells wondering if you’re going to rip their faces off or complain?

      I just smile and say “I’m okay just listening, I don’t have much to say right now. Don’t mind me.” so that way they can get over their awkwardness. It’s usually out of a defense mechanism and fear that you’re secretly sitting there hating them [maybe you are but they need to be told that you’re not, you know?].

    7. The Ginger Ginger*

      Instead of saying “it’s fine” when someone apologizes, maybe say explicitly (and pleasantly/with a smile), “Oh you’re not bothering me!” “It’s fine” may mean the same thing in your ears, but it may read to them as more agreement that they’re loud and have something to apologize for.

    8. Jadelyn*

      I lean into it – I’m introverted and tend to be fairly quiet except around certain people, and my desk is literally in a corner of an office that is itself at the corner of the building, so I smile and joke back about “hiding in my little corner back here”. Most people laugh with you rather than at you, at that point, and then they tend to (in my experience, anyway) let it go for the most part.

    9. Llellayena*

      Just respond with a shrug and “It’s more fun to listen than talk! I learn more that way!” And let them wonder if you’re thinking of learning work or gossip!

    10. Lilysparrow*

      IME, people who make these kind of pointless remarks just simply want attention.

      That’s not always a bad or unhealthy thing. We survive by living in social groups, so we’re hardwired to seek attention and comnection from infancy. And some people just never develop sophisticated ways to do that.

      One thing you might try is to just put down what you’re doing, smile, and say, “I can take a little breather. What did you want to talk about?”

      They may feel put on the spot and stop doing it. Or they may learn that you are friendly, and start engaging in less awkward ways.

    11. Cartographical*

      Them: You’re so quiet!”
      Me: “Gosh, sorry, I’ll try to turn it down.”
      or
      Me: “Thanks, I’ve been practicing!”
      or
      Me: “You wouldn’t say that if you could hear my inner editor.”

      Them: “You’re a real introvert.”
      Me: “Just bringing balance to the room.”
      or
      Me: “Not really, but I can’t work and act normal at the same time.” (the real reason)
      or
      Me: “Yes, but I like extroverts a lot, they’re good cover in social situations.”

      I find being light about it is effective because often those comments are often really concern about themselves “is there something wrong with me? with what I’m doing?” Extroverts running up against a dedicated introvert seem to have about the same effect as someone walking into a glass door. Repeatedly. They can’t read you well and it’s disconcerting. Being funny about it is as good a fix as any, in my experience.

    12. Margaret*

      I get the same thing thrown my way a lot, and my solution is always to ignore the comment but transition into a conversation about whatever it is I’m working on/would most like feedback on/am currently interested.

      “Oh, you sure are quiet.”
      “Yeah. This training system is extremely useful- you don’t know who put it together, do you?”

      “Margaret, you’re so introverted.”
      “I’m reading a really fascinating article right now about [work related but actually kind of engaging material.] These researchers found that [this that and the other thought provoking thing.] Isn’t that cool?”

      “Sorry to be so loud.”
      “No no, you aren’t bothering me. I’m just [completing x task], which doesn’t take a lot of focus. Do you ever do these reports?”

      If it helps- substitute the joke as shorthand for ‘we’re noticing you’re not talking to us and we’re feeling uncomfortable about it’ and just take it as an opportunity to talk to them. Make it work oriented if you’re on work, because it is important to be able to communicate about that stuff with your teammates. Make it just whatever you’re looking at if you’re not in an environment where you’re expected to be on ALL WORK ALL THE TIME mode, so then you can have a conversation about your interests and maybe discover some mutual ones.

      I’m never as talkative as my coworkers, but it lets me communicate to them that I don’t think they’re bad people to talk to- a way of meeting them half way, so they don’t take my natural introversion for dislike.

  20. gbca*

    I just did a cross country move for my husband job (and to be near my family) and am looking for work. I’m attending a women’s networking event next week. Any advice for how to approach these things as an introvert? It’s not specific to an industry or function. Also I want to strike the right balance between letting people know I’m looking but not coming across as desperate or like I have too much of an agenda.

    1. Bulbasaur*

      Watch out for MLMs. If someone has a “business opportunity” and they can’t tell you the company they work for, run.

      Otherwise, I am heavily introverted, so I do best at networking events by asking other people about themselves and letting them lead the conversation. If you don’t have business cards, LinkedIn’s “Find Nearby” tool can be a quick way to connect with people on the spot.

      It took me years to be able to do it, but it’s also perfectly acceptable to exit a conversation by saying, “Well, it was great to meet you! I want to talk to a few more people so I’m going to keep moving around!” or something to that effect.

    2. BethDH*

      1. I find the easiest place to start a conversation when I’m nervous/overwhelmed is the line for drinks or food. It’s really easy to say something innocuous, and if they respond with more than a one-word acknowledgment, follow it up with a question that’s not too intrusive (I like “have you been here/to this event/to an event like this before?”)
      2. If you do start a conversation, ask them about what they do or what brought them to the event. It will almost always lead to them asking you. And by the time they get to that, you’ll know a little about their background and can tailor your answer to be more specific or general.
      3. Try to have some variation on an elevator speech or (probably better) a few phrases about you and what you’re there for: just moved from ___, mostly have done x and y type work (I think having some general details there helps you seem less desperate, even if you are looking really broadly), connections to A and B fields/industries, etc. Having specific phrases in mind will help you be more polished and not get flustered in the moment, and you can pretty much use the same ones over and over.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’m guessing it will naturally come up in conversation if you say you just moved there. The natural follow-up question can often be “Oh, what do you do [for work]?” in which case “I’m actually still applying to jobs now” is an appropriate response. If they have anything to offer you as a lead, they’ll offer at that point.

      But, yes, as Bulbasaur mentioned, be wary of any leads that are vague and could be MLMs. If they have a “lead” that involves you being an “entrepreneur” or “self-starter” or “ladyboss,” run. The lead must actually be something like “I think such-and-such company might have an opening. What kind of work are you interested in?”

    4. gbca*

      Thanks all – these are great tips. Also I have a very specific thing I do, but one that every company needs (let’s say, accounting) and that’s all I’m looking to do so I can speak to that in detail and won’t get caught up in any weird “ladyboss” business!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Work on coming across as friendly and approachable more than anything. Introduce yourself and let them know you’re new to the area, ask them about themselves and let them lead the conversation if possible.

      It’s a network event so everyone is feeling the nerves and akwardness, even the extroverts who seem to be working the room, inside they’re squealing with anxiety a lot of times because it’s networking, it’s stressful on that level. [I know a lot of extroverts and whereas they love the rush, they really are still stressed AF on their own level because there’s stakes attached to being social with people who may be important business contacts].

  21. ArtK*

    Situation: Very senior person, used to being consulted on work assignments, not simply ordered to do them. New assignment that the senior person has a moral objection to. As the manager, how do you handle it when the senior person declines the assignment? As the senior person, how do you navigate this? For the SP, the assignment is a deal-breaker — they will leave rather than do it.

      1. ArtK*

        Absolutely and they are (I am) quite willing to do that. In the ordinary course of things, this would be discussed before any assignment was given. In this case, some person who is not my boss, called me and berated me. Then they talked to my actual boss and got told there was other work that I could do. It just leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.

        I had hoped to finesse the issue, since I plan on giving notice in a little over a week — not over this, but it’s just time to move on.

    2. Anonymous just this once*

      This is an interesting conundrum and I’ve been passively ruminating about it for a few minutes, and I really think it comes down to the specifics of the “moral objection.” I’d recommend that the manager take a good, hard look at the situation that caused SP to raise the flag in the first place. Does SP have a reasonable concern?

      1. ArtK*

        As you might guess, I’m the SP. The customer for this project is a government that has a horrific human rights record. I refuse to support that government in any way, shape or form.

        1. valentine*

          As the manager, I would find it odd if you had no objection to the US government, just like I feel gaslighted when people say a country that isn’t the US needs to denuclearize.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If the person doesn’t have a history of declining assignments and then speaks up with moral objections, you then find someone else to do the project. If they’re always raising objections [which I’m comfortable thinking you do not do frequently!], then you have a larger problem on your hands and the person should ultimately be removed either by their own choice or the company’s. But in this case, a one off “I’m morally opposed to this project, I cannot accept it, I cannot in good faith put my efforts behind it.” then you say “Oh wow, okay that’s understandable and we’ll find someone else.”

      I’m glad you’re going to be out of there soon anyways, so just smile in their faces and keep your heels dug in. You’re on your way out in a few weeks time!

      1. ArtK*

        Thanks! The response to my declining the assignment really helped reinforce that I made the right choice to leave!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I love when they really solidify your decision to leave like that, seriously it washes out the doubt that may linger [even when you know darn well that they stink the stinkiest stanks, that nagging voice back there says “but they’re the devil you knooooooooow.”]

          I think if someone is so morally opposed to something, they speak up, you owe it to them to take that seriously. Anyone who doesn’t is obtuse at best and evil at worst.

          1. ArtK*

            Calling me up and yelling at me “You work for a software company, you must do what the company tells you to do.” I’ve been around far too long to be treated like that. What’s worse, is it was someone who *isn’t* in my chain-of-command.

    4. BellBookCandle*

      How do you claim moral ground, if I may ask?
      I was told in a meeting we will have a new client and a project to teach them automated teapot creation. I asked if I had to be a part of this project because it requires a background check first. Was told it was ok and not an issue. Well it is an issue and I am going to likely resign in a week in any case because of other things.
      I expressed that I had a moral objection to the client, similar to the objections boss has over another client…but alas my claim was considered as another demonstration of my poor fit.

      1. ArtK*

        Not sure what you mean by your question. I told management that I was unable to take the assignment because of the customer’s human rights record, which is extremely well documented and public. When called on it, I said that the issue was not negotiable.

        As far as something like a background check (assuming you mean an in-depth security clearance type of thing), I’ve managed to negotiate my way out of those assignments in the past. I avoid that by not taking jobs where that kind of thing would be likely. If push came to shove, I’d likely quit over that sort of thing too.

        It does sound like a poor fit and a good reason to leave. Good luck!

  22. Mms*

    people who work in an office: do the technical staff mingle much with the admin staff?

    in the places I’ve worked, even though people get on well work-wise (and are of similar demographics) there always seemed to be this informal division when it comes to socialising or having lunch etc.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Definitely a division. We do get on and communicate and wander into each other’s areas frequently, but there’s always a bit of an invisible barrier and people tend to mingle with their own.

    2. Extra Super Anon*

      Just have to get this off my chest:
      I work for a teapot engineering and manufacturing firm in what is generally seen as a diverse, liberal part of the country. When I first applied for the job, the one GlassDoor review of the company said that they were stuck in the 70s. Silly me, I thought they meant the cork wall boards. When I started, I thought it odd that of the maybe 70 people in the company, only 7 were women and another 7 were PoC. (Bonus: All but one of the PoC work outside the office, all but one of the women work in admin.)
      Last week, I was in an office with a department head and a senior VP. Casual as anything, the department head told me a joke involving sexual assault. While I was picking my jaw up off the floor, the senior VP mentioned that he had told the same joke to the CEO of the company the previous week at our annual dinner.
      I’m feeling more than a little stuck. If the SVP told the CEO that remarkably horrible joke and he’s still employed, I feel that my going to HR isn’t going to accomplish anything. So instead, I am polishing my resume and preparing to leave. I’ve kept a list of every racist and sexist thing I’ve heard and plan to leave this with HR at my exit interview. Really don’t know what other options there are.

      1. Extra Super Anon*

        ACK! Very sorry! This was supposed to be a separate thread, not a comment. My apologies!

      3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Holy…

        Part of me says that you should still run it up to HR because the CEO may not “care” or fire someone for saying it to him, he may actually have a huge issue with it being said to YOU.

        I have seen that play out before. Things you say within the “inner circle” are still not okay to say to the outside circle. Yes, that’s pretty gross in it’s own way but it’s something to know.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Or conversely, the CEO may not care, but HR might, especially since sexist and racist speech in the workplace can lead to a costly lawsuit. One of HR’s functions is to keep the company out of trouble, legal or otherwise, so they may absolutely make a stern recommendation to the CEO to handle the SVP swiftly.

    3. KR*

      I mingle with technical staff! Both our field technicians who do the physical work of our company and our engineers who maintain our systems. It’s the only way to get things done where I work

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We do not divide ourselves and we make efforts on the executive leadership level to keep it that way.

      We’re a front office and production staff split. Our CEO knows everyone by name and we work closely together since we’re taking orders/processing requests while the shop needs to be consulted at times when things come up about “but can we do this?” or if a machine goes down and delays happen, we have to be in constant touch.

      We all have different lunches and breaks, depending on shifts but we all mingle throughout those break times and in between. The office all have open doors, so lots of casual conversations here and there. I have plenty who say good morning/good night to me as they come and go or stop to check in.

    5. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      We do at my office, to the extent the various parties involved and minglers (some folks just tend to keep to themselves).

    6. No Tribble at All*

      In general, the mingling is done by the older slacker technical guys chatting with the exclusively young women admins :/ as a young technical woman, I’ve introduced myself to the admins, and I’m friendly (I’ll ask if they need lunch if we’re going out for lunch, cos they can’t get up and leave the desk). But I confess I don’t want to be too associated with the admins.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      Every office is different. I have worked in offices that were incredibly hierarchical, and in others where everyone from the cleaning staff to the boss got along well. It depends on your office culture.

    8. kittymommy*

      Where I’m at they do, when possible. I think the biggest impediment is logistics, i.e. the technical staff tends to have different work areas and work times than admin staff so casual mingling is affected by simple lack of ability.

    9. Gumby*

      There’s an informal division but most of it is that people are doing different work in different areas of the building. I kind of work between the two – work more closely with technical staff than most but do many admin-type tasks (though I am classed as a technical employee) and have never felt disrespected. Frankly, the tech staff is thrilled to have me do my job because they don’t *want* to do it.

      I really like being in the in between area: half-fuzzy, half-techie has been my preference since college.

    10. Piano Girl*

      At my previous job, accounting staff get-togethers often included our IT guy and the main admin. I thought it was very nice, as he was a wonderful guy and was highly appreciated!

  23. Bummed*

    I was the one who wrote a week or so ago about leaving a toxic job and my coworkers didn’t do anything when I left. I tried my best to be social and fit in, but it wasn’t enough. I brought donuts, asked them about their families, bought girl scout cookies from their kids, etc.

    It was a toxic place and while I know that, I can’t help shaking the feeling that *I* am the problem. I’ve been told that I’m a helpful, nice, a hard worker, but obviously it’s not always enough. I’m not perfect, but I try to be a good person. Still, wouldn’t I have more friends? I just don’t know if it’s me or them or both?

    How do you know what the issue is? Is there a way to put this into perspective so that I’m not feeling depressed/blaming myself?

    1. Hope*

      If it was a toxic workplace, there probably wasn’t much you could do to get people to be friendly (and odds are they would be less open to being friendly anyway, as they were probably more focused on just getting through work). It’s probably more them than you. Definitely don’t blame yourself.

      1. valentine*

        You want to be the problem in a toxic place and it’s great you couldn’t make friends with toxic people. Take the win. Embrace your freedom.

    2. Duchess Honeybadger*

      Girl, same. When the self-doubt creeps in and it gets harder to listen to my sensible voice over my impostor-syndrome voice, I try to pretend that I’m a friend of myself and talk to me how I would talk to a friend. What would you say to a friend you trusted in the same situation? You’d tell her that she’s delightful, and that she did her best, and that this is about them and not her. It sounds like you are a wonderful coworker, and shame on them for not seeing it. May your new workspace bring you the colleagues you deserve.

    3. Stuck in a Cube*

      One thing that sticks out to me about toxic jobs like that: cliques. It doesn’t matter how nice or sociable you are or how many GS cookies you buy, if you are not part of their clique then ignore you until they need something, or it’s GS cookie time again. I am 99% certain that it is not you.

      We have a clique here who all got their jobs because they are related to or know someone. It’s the most toxic department here. I do more work on accident than they do on purpose, but because of who they know or related to, nothing is done. I have very little interaction with them and they don’t interfere with my ability to do my job, so I just return the favor of ignoring them. I’ve been here 17 years and have a very good, friendly relationship with everyone else.

      I hope that helps some. We all want to have a friendly workplace and a few people to chat with occasionally, but some place are just so toxic that is not possible.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        I apologize in advance if this comes across a bit harsh but perhaps shifting your mindset to stop looking at your coworkers as potential friends and more like…oh I don’t know widgets might be beneficial to you. It may help you separate friends from co-workers.

        1. Stuck in a Cube*

          I don’t look at my coworkers as friends. I like to have a friendly, cordial relationship with coworkers. Enough to say ask if they enjoyed the game or something along those lines. Not friends, just “friendly”.

      2. Duchess Honeybadger*

        “I do more work on accident than they do on purpose.” I’m so stealing this.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      “Would I have more friends”?

      No. People are very selfish and self absorbed by nature, they’re often very closed off and not open to new friendships often. So once we’re out of our school years, friends tapper off unless we join groups of people. Unless you’re actively working the room at church or your local sports rec team, etc. You’re rarely going to find a lot of friends, THATS NOT BECAUSE YOURE BAD! It’s just humans. Humans are weird AF and tend to be drawn to certain people who they are connected with in some random way.

      You were surrounded by soul suckers who are snobs or standoffish for their own reasons, it’s not you. It’s absolutely them. I had a coworker who still hated me despite always being helpful, kind and buying her kids fundraiser stuff. It was just because she was a snob who thought she was better than I am for whatever reason, that’s her issue, I can’t change that I’m from Wherever, I didn’t go to Whatever school she decided is the only acceptable school, I’m an accountant instead of some kind of sales wizard or whatever she deemed the only respectable profession.

      This is just not about you. It’s hard and it’ll take time to shake it off but you will rebound. This isn’t forever. As someone with a history of beating the crud out of myself emotionally due to others, I understand completely. But it really is them. I’m not saying it to make you feel better. It’s the truth.

    5. Mrs_helm*

      1) If they are toxic, then be glad you did not fit in? That means you’re not toxic, and you’re not oblivious to toxicity.
      2) Regard it as a “square peg/round hole” kind of thing. Not as a right/wrong, but just not a fit.

      1. Remote cat herder*

        Precisely! The “issue” is that OP isn’t rude/cliquey enough to fit in with them.

    6. Margaret*

      I would focus on making those friends places other than work? I know I work with many excellent, lovely, kind colleagues who bring treats in… and I do not want to be friends with any of them because I keep my professional and personal self quite separate. The reward for being a helpful hard worker at work isn’t friendship, it’s professional recognition.

      Focus on finding a job where the people are professional and not trying to hurt you, and a social life with good friends centered around places other than the office- clubs, activities, etc.

  24. Myamme*

    I wanted to thank those of you who commented on my post from last week about the employee with cancer who is about to get a PIP.

    We do have a thorough, well-staffed, HR/FMLA department and the employee has met with them about using the benefit again.

    I know that the correct thing to do is to proceed with the PIP and the comments were reassuring. I do still struggle with the optics of it. Like one commenter said, he is a ‘chaos magnet.’ But he is a ‘chaos magnet’ with a lot of friends in the office and I am less known (my projects don’t involve that group as much). I am afraid others will perceive it as cruel and that it will somehow impact working relationships.

    1. Cows go moo*

      Oh I can relate to this.

      I had to performance manage someone out of her job after five years of mediocrity at best. She had a lot of friends at work. Of course she wasn’t going to say “I got fired because I suck at my job.” She twisted the story to turn it into “After all my years of hard work, I got fired for no reason because the new manager hates me.”

      Her work friends really judged me for it and I was still hearing about this months later. But I have no regrets. Because this person was having a negative effect on the business and our team and it was my job to address that.

      Still, it was tough dealing with the gossip and unfair judgment from other people afterwards. If I could do it again I would make the same decision, but I would communicate my decision more openly. Not necessarily announcing “Jenny was fired because she was chronically late, lazy, and incompetent.” But I would at least talk to the team along the lines of “I wanted to clarify our policy about disciplinary procedures. If anyone doesn’t meet their minimal performance expectations I will always communicate that and provide extra training. My aim is always to offer support to anyone who struggles with their job for whatever reason. Terminating employment is the absolute last resort if I have tried everything I can and things still don’t work out.”

      This may mitigate some of the gossip directed at you. But it may not. This is unfair and you’re not in a position to defend your decisions openly; but it’s a part of being a manager.

  25. Let Me Tell You About My Cats*

    I have a question for people who are familiar with government jobs.

    My unit has been talking about taking on an ambitious new project, and my Lead has told me that she wants me to do it. It’s going to be something that will be a net positive for both us and the citizens we serve, so I’m honored that she thinks so highly of me, especially because I haven’t been in my position for a year yet. I’m having my review with my supervisor today and I’m going to ask him about it. My question is, if I am chosen to take the lead on this project, should I ask for a classification/salary increase? If so, how? Since it’s not the private sector, there aren’t any “raises” per say, just step increases, COL increases, and title changes (which usually mean a salary change). Has anyone had experience with this?

    1. Middle Manager*

      Given I doubt any two governments are the same (city, county, state, federal, etc), but in my particular state government world, we would not be getting a salary increase or classification change for a new project. Those are super rare in my corner. They happen, but it’s generally for really out of the ordinary things, not taking a lead on something new. But I think you have to know your context. Maybe ask other staff around you who have been there longer if that is something that is done in your office.

      1. kittymommy*

        Same in my county government. Unless the job is fundamentally and permanently changing (which would have to go through HR, the department, and board approval) a new project is just considered part of the job.

      3. Lx in Canada*

        Yep I work for the Canadian federal government and a salary increase/classification change would definitely not happen for a new project, especially if temporary. There’s a scoring system that all job descriptions go through to determine what level they should be at, so just adding a new project likely wouldn’t shift that.

    2. LCL*

      The way we do it here is, we would look at if the job could be considered part of the normal work of someone IN YOUR CLASSIFICATION, not your work specifically. If what you are doing is normally not done by people at your level but by someone in management or first line supervision, you would ask to be paid at the higher rate temporarily, for as long as the assignment lasts. Your management would have to approve it, and of course there would be paperwork. Your manager would also have a pretty good idea of what sort of work qualifies for the higher pay, and a good one would suggest it before you brought it up. In fact I’m working on this very thing for two people this morning.

      You have to learn how this is usually handled at your job. If you are represented, talk to your shop steward and find out what has been done in the past and how things are done now. If you haven’t been there a year yet, maybe you haven’t got all your step increases so should ask for that. Or maybe there is a higher job that is considered the next one above yours and you should ask for that classification.

      1. Not All*

        We also do temporary grad increases in federal…but that would mean being formally detailed out of your current position into a new position. Generally they are limited to 120 days under our rules, though it is possible to get waivers to extend.

    3. Not All*

      In federal, that would be EXTREMELY inappropriate as well logistically nearly impossible. If you do a good job on a project, you’d be likely to get a cash award at the end. If you did an absolutely stellar job, you MIGHT get a step increase as an award. But in every case, those are something management gives you to recognize your work, not something you ask for in advance.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      In my federal government job, you have to apply and be offered a new job to move up to a higher grade level. Promotions are not a thing because the job must be advertised on USAjobs.

      I know of someone who negotiated a step increase when she was hired (so she didn’t start from step 1), but I have never heard of that step increase once on the job for anything but time in grade.

      It sounds to me like that you’re being offered a different project within the office and that you aren’t likely to be able to get an increase in salary because you’re still in the same job.

    5. DivineMissL*

      In my local government job, a salary increase would only occur if there was a significant, permanent increase in job workload or additional job duties added. If it was a one-time project that fit under my existing job description, then I wouldn’t expect an increase for some extra work for a few months. However, if this new project, once in place, would add X amount of work to my job on an ongoing basis, then I would ask about an increase to offset the extra work at that point.

    6. second chance at interview I bombed*

      City/county government employee, here. I don’t think you can ask for a classification change unless the project is beyond your current role. But I do think you can have a candid discussion during your review about your future, your goals, and how taking on this project can help you achieve them.

    7. Gady*

      Since you posted about government jobs….I have a quick question! My dad is retired federal government and is showing signs of dementia. My mom passed away several years ago and I’m trying to help him out with memory care housing. I have found he doesn’t qualify for medicare or social security. True? TIA

      1. Policy Wonk*

        If he is under the old Civil Service system he would not have paid into them, so would not qualify for benefits. (Those under the new FERS retirement system do pay into Social Security.) However, he should have a decent retirement package and health care. You might want to check into whether he qualifies for something there. I don’t know enough about Civil Service retirement to tell you who to contact, so recommend you reach out to your local Congressman’s office to see if they can help you with this.

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          If you decide to call your congressional rep, you might want to ask to speak with someone who works in “constituent services.” It might also be helpful to have the name of the agency and subordinate unit your dad retired from, and the year in which he retired. The employee in the office might be able to find out a current point of contact in that agency’s HR who might be able to tell you something about what kinds of benefits were available in your father’s retirement package at the time. Best of luck.

      2. Government Mule*

        If he was under the old Civil Service Retirement System, my understanding is that they paid in to Medicare, but not in to Social Security. Check with his pension/benefits administrator.

    8. Aquawoman*

      My experience is federal. I think for a salary/step increase, you would likely have to have a different job or PD. What you could do is if it goes well and you do a stellar job on it, ask about a quality step increase at review time.

  26. Confused anon*

    At my last job, I worked with a lot of engineers. The place was also very dysfunctional and toxic. I was helping one engineer out with an issue with the software. I just gave him some info on some technical issues that were affecting the database. This was done via email.

    When I saw him in person, he seemed to avoid eye contact with me and seemed shy/embarrassed/avoided me.

    Another male engineer and I talked, but maybe I appeared too bubbly/eager to speak to him. (I was just excited to be leaving my job at the time!) We talked and then the next time I saw him, he avoided me in the hall- as in he turned and went the other way when he saw me.

    It’s frustrating because people tell me all the time that I’m quiet, but then when I am more social, it still seems to scare people away. I can be social when I feel more comfortable, so maybe they mistake that for thinking I like them? Others of them acted the same way- when I would be more social, it seemed to make them uneasy/uncomfortable. Is there something that I’m doing wrong?

    Any thoughts on this?

    1. Lora*

      Have worked with engineers many many many years. Multiple decades. I would not actually worry about it unless they say something to you directly. It may be something entirely else that has nothing to do with you, or that you can do nothing about.

      Example: We just had mandatory anti-bullying and anti-harassment training at our site due to high turnover and complaints to the EEOC in one particular department. Now there are a bunch of guys acting all weird around women and people of color, in any department, no matter what. Thankfully my group is good, but I know the others are not so much and all the dudes are being extra-awkward and weird, avoiding women and PoC, speaking verrrryyy slooooooowwwwwly like they really have to think about every single word.

      I have a nearly infinite amount of “engineers being awkward” stories, sadly. At this point I’m just grateful if they keep their clothes on at work, and eat with a knife and fork.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      In a previous job I worked with a number of very introverted engineers. (We used to say that the extroverted engineers would look at your shoes when they talked to you.) While not all engineers are introverts, in my experience many are. Your positive discussion, as it was technical in nature, was in the engineer’s comfort zone, hallway chit chat is not, thus the avoidance of eye contact. I wouldn’t take it personally, but would try to engage when there are technical issues to discuss.

      1. Kat in VA*

        My dad is an engineer. Actually, it’s technically more correct to say “My dad is a rocket scientist” because, among other things, he is literally a rocket scientist. My stepmother is an engineer. My husband was an engineer before he moved into management…of other engineers.

        There are definitely stereotypes about engineers, and some of them are more accurate than others. However, quite a lot of them tend to be incredibly intelligent and often have the most amazing dry wit that can leave you doubled over laughing…once they trust you. The thing with them is to keep plugging away. I continue to be friendly to them and wear them down until they’re comfortable enough to engage with me on a regular basis. (I’m an EA so our jobs don’t normally overlap except! I’m also an EA to the SVP of Engineering, so I have an “in”, so to speak.) I view it as a personal challenge to overcome the natural introvertedness of engineers*.

        Of course, if someone makes it clear they have NO interest in engaging whatsoever (like walking away when I’m talking to them or other obvious signs of “Piss off, Kat”) then I’ll leave them be, but most of them just need a little coaxing.

        *#notallengineers, of course. I grew up with a geek gang, so I’m more comfortable dealing with the techie sort than most folks in my position, I’ll wager. With engineers, sometimes you just have to go the extra mile to reassure them that yes, you are friendly, no, you are not going to suddenly pounce on them and demand they play Cornhole at the end of quarter Sales party, and yeah, I really did put those extra chocolates you like in the communal bowl, just for you.

        I just re-read this and jeez, is it obvious that I’m a geek *and* a mom? I need to go to bed.

    3. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      I work with Engineers and sadly there is no middle ground – either they’re super awkward (barely speaks, doesn’t socialize) or they loud, obnoxious and close to HR complaint. For example, last week I was discussing where we were going to have lunch and three coworkers almost fell from the stairs because they were looking at a woman’s butt.

  27. Iris Eyes*

    There are changes afoot in the office environment. First we lost the ice machine, now the file cabinets, an entire office was turned into an office edition of hoarders. Food was supplied to appease, but rumors of knick nack removal and possible banning of family photos put many on edge.

    Hopefully hot desking and removal of cubicals isn’t next.

    1. LibbyG*

      Desks are so 20th century. You’ll have to hot-hammock or hot-bean-bag shortly. Or maybe build your own desk and chair out of giant Legos to flex your creative muscles and meet your microspatial needs.

      2. Iris Eyes*

        I would be interested in the “build your own space” option, that could allow for interesting possibilities.

        1. Mockingjay*

          If I built my own space, I would replace my office chair with a hammock. All fluorescent lights would be removed. My personalized Spotify playlist would chime softly from my new Bluetooth speakers…and so on.

          I wouldn’t be very productive, but I would be really happy!

    2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      When you got to knick nack removal and banning of family photos all I could think of was the 1980 movie 9 to 5: Mr Hart, “An office that looks efficient, is efficient” I hope I’m not misremembering the quote. You should load up on skinny ‘n sweet while you still can.

  28. BeanCat*

    Thank you all for the reframing advice around being (what I saw as) abruptly asked tasks last week – this week has definitely felt better with all of that in mind. I’m also dealing with a flare up of a chronic health condition which doesn’t leave me in a great mindset so I think that played a small part in making everything feel bigger. I feel brighter and can dedicate my mental energy to my health instead now, so I really appreciate your help :) just wanted to drop in and say thank you!

  29. Eillah*

    Any tips for relieving a crying-hangover at work? As in, not alcohol related but you’re still puffy and dehydrated and can barely think?

    1. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Drink lots of water, and are you able to escape every once in awhile for a quick stroll/walk around the building/see the sun? Fresher air and being outdoors can really make a difference, at least for me.

    2. M. Albertine*

      Fresh air does the most for me. Get outside, walk around the building, deep breaths, take your water bottle if you can. Use the walk to transition your mindset: you had your time for crying, now it’s time for working. Crying again can be later if you need to, but now it’s work time. Stop back by the bathroom on the way back: cold water on the eyes, put yourself together.

      “Designated crying times” was what helped me deal with infertility. I had grief that I needed to deal with, but compartmentalizing it into the times I chose to really feel it helped me still be productive and a “normal” person outside those times.

      Hope this helps, and wishing you strength for whatever it is you are dealing with.

    4. Bruiser Woods*

      Drink some water, try to relax as much as you can while still working. Take some 5min breaks to walk or quickly meditate to calm your thoughts. Ice pack on puffy eyes? Take a bit longer if you need to, 10 min break or day off if you can?

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        Or moist paper towels work really well if you don’t wear a lot of eye makeup.

    5. DaniCalifornia*

      Really cold ice water. Lots and lots of ice water. This makes it easier to use the restroom and I can check to see how I look but have an excuse as well.
      I have a mini usb fan plugged into my computer so having that blow on me helps (I sometimes get overheated when I get emotional or if I’m trying to stifle emotions.) Deep breathing.
      You could always run to target and grab an ELF under eye mask and do it in your car. You leave them on for 10 mins and then wipe away the extra. Help with puffiness.

    6. Sunflower*

      Wet a paper towel and pat it on your face/under your eyes. Keep repeating for a few minutes until your face goes down a bit. Try to get outside for a few minutes if you can.

    7. BethDH*

      Find something as routine as possible to do — repetitive processes with 6-8 steps work best for me. Something that engages just enough of your brain that you have to focus, but not so much that it’s frustrating or overwhelming. Whatever your job’s version of submitting reimbursements or data checking looks like would be good.

    9. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      If you don’t care about your eye makeup, take a couple of tea bags, make them wet and stick them in the fridge or somewhere cold for a little while. When you have a break, go somewhere private and put them on your eyes for a bit. It will help with the puffiness. As the others said, also drink lots of water and cut out the caffeine if you can. Hope you’re okay.

    10. Existentialista*

      Have Visine with you, always. And I find a pain reliever like Advil washed down with a big, cool drink of water helps at lot as well. Plus, pretending. Within about an hour you should feel a lot better.

    11. epi*

      I keep face wipes in my desk. You can get gentle ones for sensitive skin that usually smell mild– cotton or cucumber most of the time– and shouldn’t irritate your skin. They will feel cool on your face because they are wet, or you can keep them in a fridge to extra cool your face down and wipe away any tear stains. I like to have some face wipes in the fridge anyway in the summer, just in case I arrive sweaty.

      In a pinch, you can make a “wipe” that is damp but not soaking wet, even out of fairly cheap paper towels that are too fragile to soak and wring out. Hold the towel up with one hand. Wet the other hand and flick the water at the towel. Run your wrists under cold water to cool down your whole body, especially if you are wearing makeup that would get ruined by more fussing with your face.

      If you’re not wearing makeup or it’s already ruined, nothing beats splashing really cold water on your face and the back of your neck. If you can get somewhere private, you can even submerge your face for a few seconds and then dry off. This is a strategy recommended in dialectical behavior therapy; it can cause you to experience the dive response, slowing your heart rate and breathing and making you physically feel calmer.

    12. Overeducated*

      Is there a quiet spot you could go close your eyes for 20 minutes (private office, wellness room, currently empty conference or storage room, etc)? After crying my eyes just get really tired and my eyelids feel heavy, so closing them for a little while makes a huge difference. I hope you feel better.

    13. Krickets*

      In addition to all these suggestions, I suggest grabbing a notebook or paper where you can just write whatever when you can’t think. I write gibberish sometimes or really pointless things like, “I really can’t think right now and I wish this fog from my brain would be lifted. Lalalala can we just all agree the work day should end now so I can enjoy my weekend…” that sort of a thing. :) Hope you get to feeling better!

  30. WordNerd*

    Hoping to get a little help from the creative hivemind–apologies if this isn’t what the forum is for.
    I’m creating a bunch of self-paced grammar and style modules for my job at a university. I’m trying to figure out a somewhat catchy but descriptive/informative name for the modules. Either a phrase like “Winning with Writing” or an acronym of some kind comes to mind. I’m also hoping that whatever name or acronym can have a logo that goes with it to put on the slides. Our mascot is the Pioneers, so that can be incorporated. Right now, my best attempt is SWAP: Style, Writing, and Pioneers with an arrow-based logo.
    I’m trying not to use “grammar” because a) it’s a little off-putting and b) “g” makes for gross-sounding acronyms, but I’m open to it.
    Any help would be super appreciated!

    2. LibbyG*

      Is it for a student audience? Sounds fun!

      I like “mechanics” rather than grammar (because it also includes things that aren’t exactly grammar).

      I’m not coming up with anything great for a name, but envisioning a student audience I like an emphasis on the act that the goal of effective mechanics and style is to get one’s point across or, in writing for educators, showing what you know. Pioneering is about traveling to new places (charitably put), so something about exploring might suit.

  31. Leah*

    I have a question. I’ve been applying to jobs just as Alison suggested – I look for a job ad on LinkedIn, go to the company’s website, find the same job opening and then apply through there. Two days ago I applied to a job I’m qualified for in a company I’d be excited to work at – their Glassdoor reviews are really good, the benefits seem amazing, the location is awesome, all that jazz. Their website had an option to either apply through LinkedIn or to manually input my e-mail, phone, cover letter, CV, etc. I spent an evening tuning out my cover letter for this position, filled in the application manually and sent it over, but here’s where I’m now worried: I never got a confirmation e-mail. After submitting my application I was taken to a new page that said something along the lines of “thank you for applying”, but it didn’t say anything about sending a confirmation to my e-mail. I tried going back to the previous page to confirm if my e-mail was right but the form was blank. I’m worried I might’ve typed my e-mail wrong and didn’t notice – unlikely, but possible – since I only skimmed the fields where I’d typed my info (I was triple checking if I’d attached the right CV and cover letter file instead).

    What should I do in this case, if anything? Is it normal for companies to not send out confirmation e-mails? I’ve applied to a few other companies and got confirmation e-mails from all of them. Should I try to contact the head of the department I applied to via LinkedIn and explain my concerns or should I just put it out of my mind and hope for the best?

    1. londonedit*

      I’d say that if you were redirected to a ‘Thank you for applying’ page, then your application has been submitted and you don’t need to worry about it!

    2. ginkgo*

      Heh, this happened to me the other day and then I got a rejection a few days later. At least now I know I typed my email right. Hopefully you’ll get confirmation via an invitation to interview instead ;)

    3. Half-Caf Latte*

      I think put it out of your mind and hope for the best.

      If you did type it wrong: hiring manager gets your message and thinks geez, no attention to detail.
      If you didn’t type it wrong: hiring manager gets your message and goes geez, no attention to detail.

      I’d also be put off by a follow-up message very close on the heels of an application. It feels like a weak cover story in an attempt to Get Noticed! Because Gumption!

    4. Matilda Jefferies*

      I think there’s no harm in asking. If there’s no contact info in the ad itself, see if you can find a general info@company or hr@company email address somewhere. You can send a quick note saying you applied for a job but didn’t get a confirmation email, just the “thank you for applying” page on the website. So you know your application was received, but is it possible that you entered your email address incorrectly? Or is it normal that there’s no email, and you can assume everything is fine.

      They may have opinions on your attention to detail based on this, which may or may not hurt your chances at the job. But I’d rather take that risk, than take the risk that I made a typo in my email address and therefore I’m out of the running entirely because they can’t reach me to set up an interview.

    5. Aspiring Chicken Lady*

      If you see a job posting on LinkedIn, apply from the LI posting. It’ll either have you do a quick “IN Easy Apply” where you basically provide the link to your profile and an uploaded resume (hopefully lovingly personalized for that position), or will send you to the company website where you’ll apply as usual — HOWEVER, LI will also send a LI notification to the job poster that you applied. (Unless you turned that off feature in the privacy/settings options). That gives you an extra chance to be noticed.

    6. BethDH*

      I have run into the confirmation page but no confirmation email thing many times. I even set up one like that once myself, before I had run into it from the other side. It’s easy for the people setting it up to think that people’s primary concern will be “did the form go through?” and the confirmation page tells you that, so they don’t think about the secondary concern about confirming what you sent them. Unless you regularly mistype your email I wouldn’t assume anything based on the lack of email.

    7. JessicaTate*

      I’d hold off for at least week or two and try to put it out of your mind as most likely over-thinking. You got the confirmation page – it went through.

      From the hiring manager side, I had a candidate recently do a follow-up “Just want to be sure you got my materials” email; I know we showed a confirmation screen (I think we also sent the automatic email, but I’m not certain). I answered politely and didn’t hold it against him, but I’ll admit that it felt a little more pushy than was strictly necessary. Kind of like, “Slow your roll. It was just two weeks ago. I have a lot of these to get through.” But I also know it’s stressful being a candidate. So, try to put it out of your mind and push forward. But if you really can’t, just be polite and not pushy in that confirmation email.

    8. Clementine*

      I would not send a request for confirmation. That would likely be super-annoying and may be ignored. If for some reason your email was wrong, then the recruiter could call you, right? There’s no reason to think your resume is not in the system. Move on.

  32. Amber Rose*

    I think I stepped on my boss’s toes a bit, but I know she doesn’t know I did it. Should I say something?

    Context: Two of the people who sit in our area are nuts. They’re constantly threatening each other, play fighting, cursing at each other and generally acting like teens on a sugar high. My boss was telling me that people walking by our office have actually said this makes them uncomfortable and she was asking how I feel (spoiler: uncomfortable).

    Then she was asking what she should do about it, but went kind of wishy washy about it and never actually did anything, so last time they were spinning each other around on chairs I basically told them to take it down a notch because people are complaining. Things have been more peaceful around here now, at least. My boss will probably never know I said anything. Should I tell her though?

    I need a new job, I’m on a hair lately and basically BEC with both of them. The singing, the whistling, the listening to music without headphones, the cursing and yelling constantly… I’m just wound tight like a spring.

    1. Rey*

      I don’t think you stepped on any toes or that you need to say anything to your boss. It sounds like you said something to your coworkers in the regular happening of things, not taking the place of your boss.

    2. Bulbasaur*

      The fact that your boss had to ask you, her direct report, what to do about employees spinning around on chairs…

      Something tells me the spinning employees are not your only problem.

  33. Middle Manager*

    Any one have good tips for welcoming new employees and effectively onboarding them?

    1. Amber Rose*

      Tour them around the building.
      Introduce them to as many people as possible.
      Make sure they know where bathrooms, lunch room and lockers (if applicable) are, as well as any other amenities.
      Make sure they’re settled with the person directing their work if that’s not you, and that they know where their work station is as well as where supplies are stored.

      As for me, I’m in charge of the safety orientation, which includes things like how to report injuries, where to go if there’s an evacuation, and what the rules are. Stuff like dress code and where to get safety equipment. Etc.

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      Whatever you do, commit to doing the same for all new hires.

      I’ve seen way too many instances where a lunch is organized for someone, but the hire before didn’t get a lunch, and is now wondering why they didn’t get a lunch.

      Also, make sure everyone knows the new person is coming, who they are and when they start, and articulate your expectation for the staff to be welcoming and what that means. Again, deeply colored by past experiences here, but shift work and long-tenured employees with chips on their shoulders have led to newbies getting all sorts of snide remarks. “We don’t have you assigned to someone for training, no one told us you’re coming” makes people feel like their manager isn’t committed to seeing them succeed or cares that they are on the team.

    3. Mary Smith*

      I like to decorate new employees’ desks with a welcome message and then walk them around and introduce them to everyone. I also ask them to shadow other teams for a while (with that manager’s permission and only teams that are somehow affected by our work) so they develop relationships and get an understanding of how our work impacts other teams and vice versa.

    4. LCS*

      Start making a list. Whatever you do for this person, document. Every subsequent onboarding then gets easier & more standardized. Key things that are on my list and are generally applicable include:
      – IT access – confirm they have appropriate read/write access to the file shares, programs etc. that they need and that they can generally log on to your system
      – Swipe cards / site access / head count lists updated / parking pass issued
      – Site tour including facilities and key people / departments
      – Issue any personal protective equipment required (ie. if they will need safety boots or prescription safety glasses or anything).
      – Ensure e-mail distribution lists are updated
      – Ensure phone lists are updated
      – Get them added to any recurring / relevant team meeting invites
      – If you have online training, set them up with the correct profile to get the right courses workflowed
      – Make sure they know how to access EFAP, Ethics Hotline, etc.

    5. Matilda Jefferies*

      Make sure their desks are fully set up with a computer, a network account, and a functioning phone. (You’d be amazed at how many jobs I’ve started that didn’t have this on day 1, and left me with nothing to do!) Same with some basic supplies – pens, paper, stapler.

      Also clean up their desk area. Get rid of any personal items from the previous person who worked there, and go over the whole thing with some Lysol wipes. Give them a clean chair, an empty wastepaper basket, and arrange vacuuming if needed.

      If the person who had the desk before left any files, deal with those before the new person arrives. Go through them and get rid of anything personal, as well as drafts, duplicates, and anything else that can be easily destroyed. If the files are to go to the new person, make sure they’re in a state that they can be used right away. The new person won’t have enough knowledge to do this themselves, and it shouldn’t be their job anyway. If the files need to go to someone else, do all of the above and get them out of the space before the new person arrives.

      Basically, give them a comfortable, clean space to walk into on their first day. That way it looks like you’re ready for them, and happy to have them – there’s nothing worse than coming to a new job where the desk is crammed with somebody else’s old files and random desk ornaments, or there’s no computer or phone or anything they need to do their work.

      1. President Porpoise*

        Dear heavens, yes. Too many of ours show up and we don’t even have their computer yet.

        1. Trixie*

          Yes! We eventually started a project plan for each new hire and started with “hire employee” which triggered IT items including computer, printer access, phone, etc. Other items included arranging for desk space, supplies, name tag, etc.
          The other useful item is to create a first day schedule (including lunch) and first week. Also, the first day guide helped identify 1-2 people that are good folks for questions regarding office in general, staff, those random items that aren’t in the employee guide book.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have a “welcome kit” together. This includes a list of everything that needs to be told paperwork wise/payroll wise, including the day of their first paycheck! And when their PTO will be available. How to use the timeclock system. The date of their first review [after 90 days].

      Then we tour them around, introduce them and show them where the inboxes are and breakroom/snacks/drinks are located.

      Then remind them like 96 times [ not quite that much] that things are always a lot bigger and crazier than they really are on day 1, so please if anything pops up or you need to be reminded where to clock in or if you mess up the clock whatever, just come to me and we’ll fix it, etc. It’s all about just giving them the introduction and being sure they know the one true landing point if they get confused [aside from their manager, since their manager will help them with their job/work space but there are things other than that to deal with on a hiring level].

      It’s a nice time to give them company branded swag, a water bottle or lanyard for their keycard etc. We have company shirts we give out, we don’t wear them often but they exist as a bonding thing.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Swag is nice. Exjob gave a cheap branded tote that contained a stress ball, a mug, a pen, and a stapler (unnecessary, since it was mostly paperless). New employees also got a free company t-shirt.

    7. Anonymous Educator*

      It’s cool if you have a standard procedure, but if you don’t, it’s honestly okay as long as the new person feels she’s being taken care of. I’ve worked places where they seriously have some new people wandering around by themselves asking for help on the first day. There should be a mentor or trainer or some point of contact who will either train the person directly on things or be able to direct her to the proper resources or introduce her around to people.

    8. Scarlett*

      When I was new, I appreciated the following:
      – Having a schedule of people to meet with for the first week.
      – Having work materials ready for me on my desk on the first day. Bonus for my current boss who got me some company swag for my desk (pens, coffee mug, notebook).
      – Giving time to learn new software, complete HR paperwork, and other processes.
      – Setting aside specific time for asking “new hire” questions.
      – Planning lunch with the person’s manager and/or team.

    9. BethDH*

      Set up a meeting with them for several days or a week after they start (and tell them early on that you will be doing this). It is so overwhelming to get all that info the first day or two, and that’s when everyone asks you whether you have questions and then it’s easy to feel like you’ve missed your only chance to ask the newbie questions. Don’t just do a quick check-in and say “how are you doing?” — most people will just say fine and assume that it’s a pleasantry rather than an invitation.

    10. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      Letting them know they can come to you with questions (or whoever else is appropriate), perhaps repeatedly.

    11. Not Actually Jane*

      On my first day at one job, they gave me a packet including:
      – A map of the office with each of the desks being labeled with each person’s name, what they did, and their email and phone extensions
      – A reference sheet giving instructions for how to log on to the various things I’d have to log on to, as well as how to use the desk phone
      – A basic SOP sheet, giving a sort of typical-day-in-the-life rundown of my new position and what workflows people generally used
      – A list of the company holidays and when they’d be that year
      – A list of the various stores and restaurants in town, and a map of our immediate area

      I also got a tour of the building, and was introduced to everyone I’d be working with.

      Obviously most of that was covered in training (and lunch breaks) but it was SUPER helpful having that stuff to refer back to

      1. VLookupsAreMyLife*

        Oh my goodness, that sounds like HEAVEN! Almost 2 months in & still don’t have a working phone line, office supplies, proper chair, or an updated name plate on my office door (it’s literally a sheet of paper you’d need to print out & put under the glass plate). ((sigh))

    12. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Oh and we also check in with new employees at the end of the first week to see how they’re feeling more than anything. It’s really just all about showing them the lines of communication and getting them comfortable in their new environment.

    14. PopJunkie42*

      Any and all of this please! These are such great ideas. I just started a new job and it’s been awful. I had to ask a construction guy in the hallway where the bathrooms were. My trainer keeps saying things like “oh you’ll need to send that to Liz” – who is Liz? Why do I send things to her? Is she expecting this information or…?

      If you search “training” through the archives, Alison has some great info and she also created an amazing orientation/onboarding schedule. I know because I have such a chip on my shoulder from this new job that I went through and read everything. :)

      Think of the first few days and how you set things up as a way to say “We are organized and very excited you are here!” To botch this makes people (ok, me) feel like expectations are fuzzy and nobody really thought about my onboarding in any comprehensive way.

    15. Close Bracket*

      Wow. I’ve been at a new job for about 2 1/2 months now, and boy do I have feelings on this subject. I am a matrixed , so some of this might sound kind of weird. And it is kind of weird! But it’s less weird when you take the matrix context into account.
      My line management eventually got around to meeting with me. Eventually. We had a weird little half hour meet and greet at the start of the second full day of orientation which was just like, what the hell are we supposed to do in half an hour before orientation? I would greatly have appreciated if he had to come by to check on me my first actual full day of workfor an unstructured conversation, or at least at some point during my first week post-orientation.
      On boarding isn’t just the first day or the first week, though. My line management and project management all basically completely ignore me. Well, not completely. My line manager did meet with me to establish goals, which I guess needs to be done. He never checks on me, though. my project manager never checks on me, either. I go to him as necessary when I need something, but he never, ever initiates contact with me. I am genuinely starting to wonder if anybody would notice if I just stopped working. So my message here is, initiate contact! And not just on the first day or the first week! It doesn’t have to be every day, but at least now and then, express some interest in the continued existence and well-being of your new employee. Fake it if you have to, but for gods sake, don’t leave them feeling like you just threw them in the deep end of the pool and wandered off to grab another beer. You might be assuming that they would thrash around and scream if they were drowning, but they might just sit on the bottom. Go check on them.

  34. Humorless*

    My boss and coworkers humor is not something I can keep up with :( it’s always someone being mean to each other (I.e., my coworker and boss like to call me and each other idiots, useless, dumb) but then follow it up with “Just kidding! Take a joke.” This isn’t humor I’m good with and I guess I’m sensitive because it’s starting to get to me. Just yesterday my coworker told me I needed to kiss her ass if I wanted to ask her a question, and my boss and her laughed. I laughed too but inside I’m really tired of it. Once I mentioned “hey, I don’t really think that’s that funny.” And it backfired to where my boss now thinks I’m uppity. How do you deal with crude humor when it’s not your style?

    1. WKRP*

      That’s hideous. I usually ignore humor or comments that I’m either uncomfortable with or frustrated by. For example:

      Me: Hey coworker, can I ask you a question about X?
      Coworker: Only if you kiss my ass.
      Me: Nevermind. (or just silence)

      If it’s a question you need the answer to

      Me: Do you have the TPS spreadsheet?
      Coworker: Kiss my ass and I’ll tell you.
      Me: Do you have the TPS spreadsheet?
      Coworker: You’ll have to kiss my ass to get it.
      Me: Let me know when you’re ready to answer the question. (then walk away)

      1. valentine*

        Idiot/useless/dumb/kiss my ass is straight-up bullying. Not that you should stay/tolerate it, but I can’t think of anything they wouldn’t have an answer for and, not only would they escalate, but if your boss feels like they’ve lost, you’ll be in trouble, like weirdly cruel parents who play-fight with their kids, then punish them for unknowlingly going overboard. (You set them up, dude!) I’m assuming you don’t have proper HR.

    2. KR*

      I wonder if you could find a place to say, “Hey, I know you guys love to joke around but I’m just not very good at taking teasing and ribbing in stride. I’ll admit I’m pretty sensitive! I don’t want you guys to think I’m trying to be a wet blanket, but I think our senses of humor are very different.” I am also a person who is pretty sensitive and have found being up front with this can have some positive results. I didn’t grow up in a teasing family or with siblings who teased or made fun of each other so I think that has something to do with it.

    3. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      Sounds (somewhat) similar to my office. I have a pretty thick skin, so I just ignore it and brush it off. If they want to think I’m uppity or stuck up or whatever…fine. The main difference is I get along with my boss and his humor isn’t so crude, it’s just my coworkers.

      That being said – this may just not be the right culture fit for you. And that’s okay! Doesn’t mean you’re sensitive. Not every office is a fit for every person. This might be your “it’s great, but”. Everyone has a different one.

    4. Anon with no name*

      I will always hate “it’s just a joke!” as an excuse. No matter what if someone is upset by a joke you shut up and stop joking with them and apologize. Period end of discussion. And there really are some things people should not joke around about – race, religion, disabilities, etc. Anything about how someone looks or acts. Having a sense of humor shouldn’t mean we have to put up with being mocked for who we are.

      1. EinJungerLudendorff*

        I always find it very telling of their character.
        They’re informed or realize that they hurt someone, and their first reaction is to deflect any blame or responsibility, and accuse their target of being the “real” problem.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      Depending on the situation, either:

      1) The slow-blinking, deadpan stare, just long enough to be really uncomfortable. Usually they will speak first and just get on with it.

      Or 2) Total snark escalation, like

      Her: “Kiss my ass.”
      You: “You first.”

      At which point you go back to step 1.

      #2 only works if you’re glib and can fire back rapidly. If that’s not your way, sticking with the stare is a good option.

  35. Overeducated*

    Waiting to hear back on the decision from my interview Tuesday. Hiring manager responded to my thank you email saying it would be yesterday or today. Fingers crossed….

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      So you can expect to hear by mid-July! :D

      Kidding. Sort of. But best of luck, I hope you get good news.

  36. Everdene*

    Given my team an early finish Friday (4pm here). Crazy busy week in our service and I can’t give bonuses but I can shut the office early for everyone. What little things do you do for your reports?

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      Free food! One day our boss went to a local cafe (nothing fancy) and got us all a coffee. It helped power through the afternoon.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Haha I have to admit, a 4PM release would barely register, especially if I’m putting in extra hours during the week – that gets lost in the slosh. We get dismissed at 1PM as a treat.

    3. BigRedGum*

      Being able to get off early, free food, and being able to wear jeans. those are my most favorite things to get.

  37. Victoria, Please*

    I put a job on Ziprecruiter and Indeed for the first time. To be a decent person, do I need to respond to every single person who applies there?

    The issue is that you actually have to go and apply at our company’s portal, which is in the ad with a link and instructions. Since the job is now “closed” I can’t consider anyone new unless we decide to reopen the search. Do I need to reject or otherwise let every single person know, or are Indeed and ZR kind of the black holes I think they may be? (Again, decency is my standard here.)

    1. Silver Radicand*

      My general rule of thumb is if I’ve interviewed them, they should get a response. But not necessarily just for applying.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Just applied?

      No need to respond (unless Ziprecruiter and Indeed give you options to auto-reply with an acknowledgement of “We got your application”).

      Phone interviewed?

      Send a form rejection email.

      Interviewed in person?

      Form rejection email.

      Finalist who didn’t get it?

      If you have the bandwidth to send a personal rejection, yay. Otherwise, a form rejection email is fine.

    3. Anonymous Educator*

      I’ve also seen some jobs post up and essentially say “If you haven’t heard anything from us by such-and-such date, we’ve hired someone else.” Not those exact words, but that gist. That’s not great, but it’s better than just straight-up ghosting.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        You can setup ZipRecruiter so that each person who responds to your job gets sent a customized message. You could perhaps set the message as, “We really appreciate you applying for xyz role with Sasha’s Sprockets, qualified applicants can expect a response in 48-72 hours.”

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I shivered at the mention of Ziprecruiter, it’s been such a waste of patience in my life but that’s a side rant, sorry!

      You don’t need to respond to anyone who doesn’t follow the requirement to go apply at your business portal.

      They are blackholes when it comes to just submitting resumes. Unless you’ve reached out and had contact [phone interview and such], you don’t need to reach out.

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            I have a love/hate relationship with Zip. I feel it’s absurdly overpriced ($400/month for 3 job slots) and the layout is…I don’t know kinda clunky would be the best way to describe it. The resume database sorting feature is also nonexistent which is a huge PITA. I don’t really love any of the job boards but I’d rather use Indeed as it’s much more cost effective ($100/month). As a job seeker I despised Zip because I’d get all these spam messages that let me know every time my profile got viewed.

          2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            In our case it’s because the database is garbage and nobody is looking for a job there. We got zero interest in any position. Then add on that it’s complicated and junky.

            I loath Indeed as well but at least it’s just basic and a go-to job board for our area.

            ADP is trying to stuff it down the throats of businesses and it still stinks a bit stinky stinker.

            Also naturally, it’s high priced with their limited traffic, no thanks! They spend so much money on advertising, we decided that it was worth a shot.

            I will use Craigslist again before I ever use ZipR.

            1. LSharp*

              I have used Indeed a few times. I put right in the job ad that only applicants who receive interviews will be contacted, because we typically get 50+ resumes. On Indeed, you can pause the ad, so if you need to reopen the search, all the information is still there.
              Also, if we have interviewed them, we let them know they will ALWAYS receive a rejection email, or an acceptance phone call.

  38. Jessen*

    Ok, trying to put together a few cover letter appropriate sentences for a long distance move and leaving a job that I haven’t been at that long. I was thinking of something like “I am looking to move to private sector work for greater stability, and I want to move back towards this region where I have some connections.” Trying to move from DC area government work to something in the greater Detroit area. I do have some friends there.

    I know long distance is still going to be a very long shot for me, so I want to put the best spin on that I can.

    1. Jessen*

      For context: my resume will show graduate school in the rough area. I’ve only been at my job (frontline IT helpdesk) for about 7 months, but we’ve had the shutdown and a contract issue in that time. And I hate it out here.

    2. Thesaurus Loris*

      YMMV but I found that changing my resume and cover letter to “relocating to greater X in fall of Y” was what started getting me phone calls and interviews and an eventual offer – and mine was only a distance of about 200 miles. Using my address meant I was immediately in the “nope” pile, so I think it helped having an actual relocation time there. I didn’t have any concrete plans to move without a job offer, so obviously it was a gamble but I got lucky with the timing. You say you have friends in the area, ask if they’d be comfortable with you using their address in the interim or something? Good luck!

      1. Jessen*

        My one worry with a planned move date would be that many jobs would want me to start fairly quickly. I’m basically very entry level frontline IT. I don’t want employers to think “this person can’t start for 6 months so we’ll move on.” I could pull off a move in 3 or 4 weeks.

    3. JessicaTate*

      I recently received a recent cover letter that included a line that said, basically, “I’m eager to move to X City because of Reason Y.” It definitely caught my eye (I was having trouble finding local candidates, actually), and given the other qualifications, put it on the top of the pile. So I think your line is pretty good; maybe tighten it up a bit, “I’m eager to move [back] to the Detroit area, where I’m from/went to college/whatever OR “which would put me closer to family and friends” or something. You may not need a reason, but it helped me see that the candidate was serious about moving, which not all remote apps were.

      I think the other poster’s suggestion of claiming a planned move date to solidify your commitment would be good. Again, it tells me you’re serious and gives me a sense of timeline.

      You could also say that because this is a pre-planned move, you wouldn’t be seeking any relocation costs. I don’t know if people even factor that in…

      1. Jessen*

        Thanks. I was thinking of putting in some sort of reference to being able to move quickly. I’m renting a small apartment, so I could pretty much be relocated with a uhaul trailer and an airbnb for a month. Maybe 2 months rent for breaking my lease. But I’m not sure how to put that, and I’m low enough level that I think mentioning relocation would come across as tone deaf.

      2. Jessen*

        Also just for reference: I have very good reasons to want to move, but the real reasons are not at all appropriate to bring up. So I’m fudging a little on why I want to move. I do have good friends in the area though. And I adore snow.

    4. Policy Wonk*

      Rather than “trying to move” I would say “planning to move”. The “trying” language would make me think you want me to pay relocation expenses, and are not otherwise committed to the move, and I would move on to the next resume.

  39. Not a Real Giraffe*

    For many years now, I have wanted to move from Large East Coast City to a smaller, more affordable city. (I have a couple different cities in mind. I think the city choice will really be based on where I can find a job.) My question is two-fold:

    1) What are your best tips for conducting a multi-city job search, when you have some general geographical preferences in mind but are not married to any one particular location?

    2) What are your tips for actually pulling the trigger in doing this? I have lived in Large East Coast City for a long, long time and my family is nearby. My only driving factors in wanting to move is that I will never be able to afford to buy a home in this area, I miss some aspects of the suburban life, and… I’m just a bit over living here.

    2. BethDH*

      Maybe:
      Do some cost of living and livability research first and pick a few target locations that you really like and start with those to help you focus.
      Depending on your industry, see where companies you like have HQ or offices. That gives you a starting point even if you don’t work directly for one of them eventually, and also gives you more opportunities in the area.
      I was in a similar lifestyle-over-location situation, and the only way I got myself to actually do it was to create some artificial limitations. You can always set a deadline — look in 3 areas for 3 months, then if nothing pans out, switch areas.

      1. AudreyParker*

        I’d actually like to emphasize that first bit, which I touched on slightly earlier – apologies if you’ve already covered this part, Giraffe, but it was important for me.

        Before I really dug in, I would just look at rental listings in a city/area to gauge “affordability”. Once I got more serious and began looking into details, I realized that didn’t tell me remotely enough. For one, if average salaries are lower, too, you may end up with a technically cheaper lifestyle that consumes the same percentage of income. You also need to figure in the job market (are there even jobs you would be able to apply to? how competitive is it compared to where you are?), extra commuting costs/details (tolls, more/less public transit, higher gas prices, higher vehicle taxes), whether the affordable housing is even somewhere you’d want to live… You get the picture. I’ve been kind of amazed at how different things can be across the country and between cities that I hadn’t really considered before after living here for so long. I’ve eliminated several places I was initially very interested in after realizing that the bigger picture was not at all as favorable as I’d thought.

    3. AudreyParker*

      Trying to get out of Large West Coast City to smaller more affordable city TBD back east, still trying to wrap my head around this and trying different angles. It helps only a little that my interest in moving is driven by wanting to be nearer to friends & family, I don’t really have people attachments here anymore, but definitely finding it tough to really commit to the relocation idea. The one thing I’ve been doing is researching areas of potential interest on city-data to get a better idea of whether there are things I’m not aware of, either to do with commuting & work or just living there. It’s helped me bump some locations further down the list than others.

    4. moql*

      I was in a somewhat similar situation. I picked one new city a week, and applied to all the jobs in that area that would be a good fit. Next week, new city. In my industry there aren’t lots of new jobs being posted daily, so looking every few weeks was enough not to miss something.

      When interviewing, I made sure I had picked out several concrete reasons I wanted to move to that city in particular, so my answer wasn’t just “anywhere but where I am now.” These don’t have to be your most important motivations, just make sure you can talk about something. City #1 I talked about how much I wanted to move somewhere with a thriving X community. City #2 I said I’d visited on vacation and really enjoyed the weather. Defining those things for yourself might also make it easier for you to narrow down which cities to focus on first? If you know what general things you’re looking for (city size, deal breakers, airport has a direct flight to your current city, whatever) maybe post tomorrow and see if people have suggestions?

      As for pulling the trigger… I was careful to only apply for jobs I was excited about. Once I got an offer from one I knew I didn’t need to ponder because I’d already done the background on location, company, job duties.

  40. Putting Out Fires, Esq.*

    So what is the flexibility with pushing back on dates for work travel?

    Background: my husband’s job is sending him on work travel for 3 days. We’ve known he needed to do this for a few months but he only got approved for the money recently. Think: we were told he would go in March intending to travel at the end of April, now he is going the first week of July. There are no business reasons for the timing (not a product release, not a plant opening, not a conference, not with clients). With enough lead time, this trip could have been whenever. But the week when it is scheduled is the one time all summer we have childcare issues. Any other week spring and summer would have been fine.

    Obviously it’s too late to push back now, but I’m the future, when the dates are being selected, can you ask for blackout dates, like when you are already scheduled off or when your partner is already traveling for work? Is that something that a person can do with work travel?

    1. Mike*

      Absolutely. People are allowed to have lives. I get that all companies are different, but at my office, people just block their calendars for vacation/whatever time, and other people just schedule meetings, etc. around it. As well, when things are in the planning phase, it’s perfectly fine to say “by the way, Week X is bad for me for [whatever reason]”…especially if it’s not driven by client requirements or critical deliverable schedules.

    2. KR*

      Yes you can totally push back or ask for different dates especially for travel like this in the future. I travel on average once a month or once every other month for work. I’m away anywhere from two days to a week, sometimes flying sometimes driving long distances. I straight up plan my travel mostly around my own personal plans unless it’s something that involves other people travelling and/or is time dependant.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      Yup, unless there is a specific business need (trade show, big pitch, etc.) any reasonable company will work with the person going out of town to make sure the dates are doable. Super weird that the travel took so long to get approved.

    4. LadyByTheLake*

      Of course — as planning starts, or even after dates are proposed it is super common to say “the week of the 10th doesn’t work for me, when can we move this to?”

    5. Flyleaf*

      Why is it too late to push back on the dates? They delayed, and should understand that things have changed since the travel idea was first floated. I would have no problem if someone on my team needs to adjust their travel based on family obligations, especially if I was involved in delaying the planning. Go ahead and (gently) push back, and try to get it moved to another week in July.

      1. valentine*

        Why is it too late to push back on the dates?
        Right. Don’t think of it as a command from on high. He can try, “Any other week is fine, but I don’t have childcare that week.” And if they overstep and brainstorm about who might take the kids, he just repeats himself.

  41. Lauren*

    I work with a woman named “Jane.” She has been with the company for a long time and trained me when I was hired. We basically do the same job, with a few minor differences. Old boss left and new boss changed our duties. New boss claims that Jane has “hand issues” that affects her work/typing, so the majority of the workload is now dumped on me. Jane spends time moving boxes and doing light paperwork. I’m now stuck with the workload that both Jane and I used to do together.

    I’m not sure if Jane has an undisclosed medical condition or if there are other issues going on. When I was interviewing for the position, one manager said that “Jane isn’t very good at her job, but everyone likes her.”
    Is that why she would get away with this? Because she’s social?

    It wouldn’t bother me as much if they demoted her or paid her less than me, but they’re not going to do that. Jane has her own office and acts as if she owns the place. She and new boss go to lunch together and are friends socially, so I’m stuck and have no one to turn to. I also wonder if Jane and new boss have some sort of agreement or quid pro quo.

    How are people allowed to get away with things like this? Has anyone been through this before?

    1. Duchess Honeybadger*

      People are allowed to get away with as much as management will let them. Are you up for looking for a new job? The way you’ve presented it, it doesn’t sound like there’s much of a remedy. Jane and New Boss are jackwagons and there’s no known cure for jackwagonry in grown people. Sadly. That would make me rich. Good luck! I’m sorry this is happening to you.

    2. MeganTea*

      Unfortunately, I don’t think there’s anything you can do about Jane. The only thing you can do is talk to new boss about *your* workload, especially if you’re overloaded — which it sounds like you are. Be factual about how much work you’re tasked with, and ask Boss to come up with a solution to get you to a reasonable workload. But don’t mention Jane, since you have no idea what health issues or office politics issues are going on.
      Sorry you’re in this situation.

      1. Nessun*

        100% Agree. All you can address is your own workload. Meet with your boss to talk about what you’re working on and how much you can realistically do, ask for assistance in prioritizing if necessary, and look for guidance. If the answer is “do it all”, you’ll know where you stand with management, and can look at moving on.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This happens in a lot of places, lots of “Fred stinks at his job but is such a bright light in the office, so we just let him putter around!” However the normal thing is to then make sure the work is getting done but not just by dumping it on one person’s head like that. Ick. That’s just pure dysfunction and poor management in full view.

      You can’t do anything about. You can bring up that you’re now being swamped by work and need someone to take the slack [even if you’re not having issues keep up but don’t want to be sunk with paperwork when you take a day off at some point, you know? You shouldn’t be constantly running at 100% capacity on a daily basis]. But I would leave the Jane stuff out of it. Just say “Now that Jane is no longer available to help with X duties, I’m finding that it’s taking away from the time I have to do everything else, this will become a problem in the future given the workload is not sustainable for just one person.”

      But yeah, if someone has a medical issue, their duties are often reassigned but this was handled horribly.

    4. WS*

      If you start talking to your boss by complaining about Jane’s medical condition, you will come off as a jerk. The issue here isn’t Jane’s workload, but yours. Talk to your boss about being overloaded, preferably with a schedule of what you are able to reasonably do, and the boss can sort out how to get the rest done, whether they do it themselves or assign Jane or bring in someone else.

      1. valentine*

        And don’t engage if boss bangs on about Jane. Jane doesn’t matter. Proceed as though only boss, the workload, and you exist, because you only control one of those. This may require a lot of “Jane notwithstanding…”

  42. second chance at interview I bombed*

    I wrote in a few weeks back about an opportunity to take another crack at a position I applied for two years ago. It was a government panel and I had a meeting with someone who holds the position, and it was super helpful! Management had a brown bag lunch for internal folks who were applying for this position, and they were equally helpful. No one I met with thought it was weird to bring up questions from last time, and they provided me with coaching. Two of the questions I remembered specifically were asked this time around!

    My interview was last Friday, and while I wouldn’t say I hit it out of the park, I think I did much better than last time around, and I felt prepared. I did my best and I’ll find out in a month or so if I made the eligibility list. Thanks to everyone here who answered my answer about prepping last time! Cross your fingers for me!

  43. Mama Bear*

    I’m looking to make a career change and would love some advice.

    I worked in administrative roles for 10 years, starting as an admin assistant at a tech company and ending as a program manager at an educational institution. Then I took 2 years off to be a stay at home mom and am now trying to re-enter the workforce.

    However, I don’t want to work in an office for 8 hours a day. I’d like a job that has me on the road locally during regular business hours. My favorite parts of my past jobs where when I got to leave the office for meetings with clients or to run errands for my boss, anything that got me outside during the work day. But I don’t like long travel away from home, especially now that I have a kid. Ideally I’d like my “in office” hours to be remote, but I’m also fine with having to be in a physical office for a few hours a week.

    Does anyone have recommendations for the types of roles I should be searching for and applying to? I am lucky that we can afford to be a single income household so I can take a job that is part time or lower level, but at the same time I don’t know if I should be looking into entry level roles since I’m in my 30’s and have a decade of experience.

    1. Thesaurus Loris*

      You mentioned the program manager at an educational institution – what about a program officer at a foundation? Where you get to travel to different local agencies who are applying for grants and conduct site visits? I always thought that could be a really fun thing to do after being on the other side of it, plus you get to learn about a lot of great work going on in your community. I’m not sure how much office vs. travel time it would be, but maybe something to think about!

    2. Ann Perkins*

      Maybe entry level social work? My understanding is they often visit clients during the day.

    3. LightFixture*

      A job I had that fit these criteria was as a title runner/car mover for a used car dealership. I would pick cars up at the repair shop or auction, take them for detailing, pick titles up from banks/the registry, drop them off, etc. I was always running around.

    4. BethDH*

      How “on the road” is on the road? I know you said locally, but I’m thinking of a job I had at a university teaching research-related skills — lots of presentations, workshops, seminars, and so on. There were several of us in the same role and we took turns on those, but we would have loved to have someone who really wanted to do them (I far preferred the one-on-one meetings with students). So if “all over campus” counts as on the road, something like that might work for you. I wouldn’t be surprised if something in career services, wellness/support, etc. had similar kinds of needs.

      1. Alex*

        This was going to be my suggestion.

        No out of region travel, but constant local travel. Some office work, but not all the time. Much of the work can be done from home.

    6. epi*

      Some research coordinator and community health worker roles require you to do this in order to visit volunteers/clients.

      If you are comfortable with more casual work, certain types of research data collectors do this too. I’ve worked on studies where I went around to convenience stores to look at their tobacco products; the same research group has also hired people to look at soda prices; produce availability; and the conditions of neighborhood parks. The wage was OK too– I earned over $20/hour to do this in Chicago in 2015. If you like it and are good at it, researchers tend to hire the same people repeatedly. It’s easier to train people to do the data collection correctly, and often they need to ramp up quickly so they call people they know.

      In my area, organizations that need this will put in the ad that you need access to your own vehicle; and they all kind of phrase it in the same boilerplate way. I would find some jobs that interest you, then start plugging part or all of that phrase into your job sites.

    7. PopJunkie42*

      I work at a university and I know that people who do educational outreach and community-style jobs do a ton of events and set up all over town. If you’re interested in staying in education you could also look into local recruiter positions (like a college recruiting from local high schools).

    8. Slartibartfast*

      The hospital I work for has internal employees who pick up and drop off supplies/lab samples/ laundry from the main hospital to all the satellite facilities. There’s also a concierge service that runs errands for employees (for a fee) who can’t get these errands done themselves due to their work requirements. They don’t shuttle kids or pets but will pick up and drop off dry cleaning, groceries, light personal shopping, etc. And there is valet parking and shuttle services at the hospital. Or maybe school bus driver? My aunt loved that job but ymmv.

    9. Ranon*

      How do you feel about sales? There are a lot of b2b type sales positions in my field (architecture) with various amounts of travel- I know that our tile folks, for example, pretty much rep our local area but some of the window and door people work a wider multi city region.

  44. taking one for the team*

    I work in a team of several employees all at the same level and the same job. The expectation is when projects come in we decide who will get it based on availability. However, some of the employees when a job order comes in, rather than letting the team know, they just go ahead and start working on the project. Often this means that high-visibility or really good projects will go to only one or two people on the team as they are the most visible in the organization.

    How can we come up with a plan to assign projects equitably and track progress so everyone is up to date on the status of the project (as we often need to cover for each other during vacations). Our boss is very hands-off and expects us to sort this out on our own.

    1. BethDH*

      Do the projects come in somewhere centralized? If not, that seems like the first thing to fix. I’m not sure whether “they are the most visible in the organization” refers to people on your team and projects are getting sent directly to them or whether that part was connected to the “high-visibility” projects.
      Seems like you also need some ground rules about assignments that are more specific than “availability.” What would make sense depends a lot on the type of work and your roles in it, but I’m wondering if some people on your team interpret that as “if I see it first and think I have space in my schedule, it’s mine.”

      1. valentine*

        Can the alerts go to everyone? I’m thinking people are contacting only Alice and Bob, hence the snake eating its tail.

    2. Beancounter Eric*

      Your boss needs to be more hands on regarding this…..If Alice and Bob are snagging all the neato projects and leaving all the dull, boring stuff for Carol and Dan, leadership needs to, well, lead and actively assign work.

      But boss is hands-off…..ok, how about this: Team members need to agree that projects are taken in turn by the participants – Alice doesn’t take a new project until Bob, Carol, and Dan have each gotten a project and so on.

      In the end, boss is going to have to do their job and manage the team.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Your boss needs to be more hands on regarding this

        I was about to say the same thing. I have never worked anywhere where employees could just start working on tasks/projects – management always assigned these things based on workload, expertise, and yes, sometimes, who they liked best.

    3. LCL*

      I have seen this issue come up in one place where I worked. What fixed it was a strong manager who was able to tell the group how the work should be assigned, and they couldn’t do it the old way any longer.

  45. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

    There is a job I would like to apply for, however the really relevant experience for the role is from a position two jobs ago (although it is all within the same general field). My current position only tangentially relates (which is why I am trying to get out). I have 15 years of experience, do I still need to do a chronological resume? I also have only the three most recent positions fully built out, with the older roles collapsed into single lines for name and dates.

    How do I highlight older, but more relevant, experience on a resume?

    1. Katertot*

      Could you create two sections? I do that when trying to highlight specific experience for a position Like:
      REALLY RELEVANT WORK EXPERIENCE
      Relevant Role
      Relevant Role (if you can relate one)
      OTHER WORK EXPERIENCE
      Current Job
      Previous Job
      etc

      1. Katertot*

        Not that the header would be ‘really relevant work experience’ but maybe ‘Llama Grooming Experience’ and the other being other work experience.

      3. Sprechen Sie Talk?*

        This could work well actually – that role is most aligned with sitting where this role would, so it would show that, and current position has some additional projects that relate, while prior job isn’t so much, but does relate somewhat. Ok, I think I can make this work. The timeline then goes Job 3, current job and then prior job (under other work experience). Would that be confusing to read?

        1. Katertot*

          As long as you are explaining the order I think (with the headers) it wouldn’t be confusing.

  46. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego JD*

    Today, I got an email that a new person is joining our 4-person project team. Every time I get that type of email, I get really nervous, thinking I’m going to get replaced or demoted.

    I generally do good work, have a decent/excellent (people have told me) work ethic. So those fears are unfounded…right?

    It doesn’t help that the last time this happened at my previous job, I felt my job duties had so markedly changed (I came in as a Teapot Attorney Expert and left a Teapot Templates and Editor of Documents Expert). And the guy who came in usurped the Teapot Expert role. Also, previous job tended to elevate males over females (as in, a guy would talk and president would smile and nod. A female would propose an idea and get fiercely interrogated for several minutes straight for no justifiable reason).

    Is a new person coming on board a small team always as nerve-wracking/bad as I think it’ll be?

    1. ATX Language Learner*

      No, people join new teams all the times. I find it’s best to let go of previous stuff that happened in old positions so you can focus on being happy and what’s important in your current role.

      1. valentine*

        Wasn’t there a time when the announcement was about you? Imagine the best scenario (since you’ve already covered the worst). Now move the dial toward the center and imagine this person just hanging with the team. That’s most likely, no?

    2. Booksalot*

      Not always, but I get where you’re coming from. It’s hard to let go of that baggage. I’ve been laid off twice with no warning, and despite my boss being happy with my work, I internally panic anytime she wants to schedule a 1-on-1.

    3. Mrs. Carmen Sandiego*

      Got a cheery phone call just now about wrapping things up with the current project (since the project is winding down). Was told a team member would meet with me Monday in person. Also, 2 teapot attorneys have joined the team.

      ….yeah, sounds like I’m being replaced. :( I actually liked working on this project a lot….

    4. The New Wanderer*

      It can be totally normal, and it can be stressful. However, if they’re adding staff, it usually means the workload demands it and not that they’re replacing anyone, especially if they haven’t talked to anyone in particular about improving performance.

      But I get it, oh I get it.

    5. NACSACJACK*

      I feel you. We keep hiring for the new skills rather than retraining current employees. Thus, less and less people to do the old type of work and just as much or more work for less people which means less time for current employees to retrain. Feels like I’m getting pushed further and further away from the work I’ve been wanting to do.

  47. Summer Rain*

    TL:DR: how candid should I be in an informal review when I am unhappy and looking for a new job?

    I am unhappy in my current job situation and have been looking for a new position. Having been in this role for 18 months, at this point I feel like “the job is the job” and I either suck it up, or leave. I’m not feeling like any issues I bring up will be addressed (lack of feedback, lack of bonuses, keep moving my desk…)

    But really the bigger issue is the fact the job was misrepresented (billed as X with a little Y, but is actually Y with a little X, where X is something I never would have accepted if they had been upfront). I’ve tried to move the job more toward X, but it just hasn’t happened and really is not what they need. So I am looking. My boss mentioned she is going to have an informal check in with me soon and I am unsure of how candid to be.

    Should I should just be sort of noncommittal and positive, or more honest?

    1. ceiswyn*

      Well, since honesty isn’t going to change anything and may disadvantage you (you don’t want to be pushed out before you’re ready) I’d be noncommittal.

      You can be honest at your exit interview, if your company holds them. It could well be helpful to the company for you to explain that part of your reason for leaving is that the position is actually Y, not X, so that they actually recruit appropriately next time. But you don’t really need to be helpful to them, especially as they’ve been so unhelpful to you.

      1. Summer Rain*

        yes, you are right. I will save it for the exit interview (which will hopefully be soon!)

        I think I just want to air my grievances but venting here is probably the best/safest option until I have another role lined up.

    2. Dino*

      Do you think that you’d be pushed out if you are candid about not feeling like it’s a match? Are you able to actually talk about the reasons without sounding like you’re venting your spleen or playing the blame game? The answers to those questions can help determine if it’s worth it or a good idea to be more honest.

      1. Summer Rain*

        lol – I fear I will do the latter….once I start I might just get going. Better not to open the gate at all.

    3. Anonymous Poster*

      It’s totally fair to mention that you thought the job was something other than what it was. I’d be upfront about that, because it doesn’t sound like you have been very clear about that yet. You don’t have to say anything about looking for a new position, but it could start a much more frank and honest discussion about your job duties and make it clearer to your boss that this is a very big deal for you. I think that might be really helpful.

      Some bosses may read into it that this is your “I’m leaving” meeting, but honestly most wouldn’t. They’d want to know that the job was sold as something other than what it is, and see how they can change it to make you happier there.

  48. Sunday Morning Fever*

    This just in…. My staffer had to sit in on a meeting with a client the day after he delivered a difficult presentation. I told staffer that the client’s presentation did not go as expected (and gave him all the details) and not to engage with him too much and that they were really just there to be a fly on the wall and make sure the meeting went fine. That if the client brought up his difficulty, they should just sympathize and say “sorry to hear that.”

    Instead, the client mentioned his presentation and staffer asked him, “how did it go?” I explained why this wasn’t the best response. He understood. But, I honestly don’t know how to manage someone who needs explicit instructions for every variation of social interaction they might have.

    1. Natalie*

      I honestly don’t know how to manage someone who needs explicit instructions for every variation of social interaction they might have.

      Is there some background here that you didn’t include? Because otherwise this is a huge leap to make to someone using normal conversational filler, and your approach honestly sounds kind of micro-manage-y.

      1. Sunday Morning Fever*

        I’ll put it in some hypothetical context. Let’s say client was giving a presentation and while giving it his slides were all out of order. And although the client didn’t crash and burn and was able to salvage some of it, the presentation was obviously not as successful as everyone wanted it to be.

        The next day, my staffer is told these details so that he knows how to best engage with the client, who is obviously a little sensitive about the situation. And when the client mentions the presentation, the staffer — knowing that the presentation didn’t go well and why — asks him how it went.

        1. Natalie*

          By context I meant more that the client is hyper sensitive, or you are in a very finicky field, or the staffer has made other significant missteps.

          Warning the staffer that the presentation hadn’t gone well seems perfectly reasonable, so staffer will know not to bring it up as idle chit-chat. Beyond that, I don’t think you needed to give them a play by play and script this interaction for them.

          1. valentine*

            I think there’s more in previous threads.

            This could be as simple as he thought the client mentioning it meant it was okay to discuss. The prevention plan seems like a lot of hand holding for the client, especially when he then was the one to bring up the presentation.

    2. LadyByTheLake*

      Sheesh. Maybe their mouth was on autopilot and they immediately realized their error, in which case it might be an uncomfortable learning experience to engage brain before engaging mouth. But if they don’t understand what the issue was -that’s a person who probably shouldn’t be interacting with clients.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      I have a colleague like this. I have learned never to give him that kind of a heads up. The way he retains information, he will only remember the part about the presentation and will then say exactly what you told him not to say. The best thing to do is to tell him specifically what TO do. Never tell him what NOT to do or say – he will somehow not retain the “not”.

  49. Have a*

    The start of summer means it’s also the start of fitness talks / well-being programs in the office. I realised only recently that in this office of around 50 people there’s only one person who’s overweight – most of them are quite active and it’s a common topic of conversation.

    I don’t /think/ there’s necessarily any discrimination in hiring practice (the backgrounds of my colleagues are quite varied) but realising that was somewhat surprising.

    1. Duchess Honeybadger*

      Well, the average size in the U.S. is 14+. So in an office of 50ish people if there’s only one person who reflects the majority size in the country, you have a discrimination problem. There are more ways to discriminate against people than race/nationality/gender (which is what I think you mean by “backgrounds,” correct me if I’m wrong).

        1. Duchess Honeybadger*

          …but not so much of a leap given the OP’s concerns and what she told us of the company…

          1. T. Boone Pickens*

            Tough to speculate unless OP is in a position where they interact with potential candidates. Would be interesting to see if OP chimes back in with some additional info.

      2. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

        Averages can be very misleading though and data on this is difficult to track. The population of the U.S. is not evenly distributed and there are huge regional variations for all kinds of things, so an average over approximately 300 million + people isn’t really going to be very accurate when applied to a small scale.

        For instance, one report shows West Virginia has the highest adult obesity rate at 38.1% and Colorado has the lowest at 22.6%. If Have a was in West Virginia, having only 1 obese person in the office out of 50 might be statically significant, but less so in Colorado. You could even break that down further by cities within a state.

      3. MsPantaloons*

        This varies pretty heavily by region. The national obesity rate is about 35%, San Francisco’s is 15%. Depending on location and industry, the numbers OP describes can be explained by demographics+happenstance rather than discrimination.

      4. Lady Kelvin*

        Yeah that could be just because of the type of job they are in. We also don’t have many (any?) overweight people in our office of ~100. But we work in a field where most people who enter the field are already very active people (like to surf, hike, dive, swim, etc.) and it often requires substantial activity in the start of your career. In fact, for some roles you have to pass very strict physicals because of the nature of our work. So despite the fact that we don’t reflect the general population in terms of body size, we aren’t discriminatory against larger body sizes. Its similar to the research that suggests that vegetarians are generally healthier than the average population. But are vegetarians healthier because they don’t eat meat or are people who don’t eat meat also more likely to be active and conscious about their health. It certainly is possible to eat an unhealthy vegetarian diet.

  50. Matilda Jefferies*

    What (else) do I say in a “I wanted to let you know I’ve applied for a job at your company” message?

    The person I’d be writing to is someone that I have known professionally for a really long time – we’ve never worked together, but we went to grad school together, and we bump into each other about once a year or so at various events. The position I’ve applied for would be a peer to her, and likely working very closely together. So I definitely want to let her know that I’ve applied, but then what?

    Some other context: we’ve never worked together, so she wouldn’t be a good reference for me. And it’s a government job, so “influence” is strictly discouraged – if she’s part of the hiring process, she wouldn’t be allowed to consider our past relationship in the decision. So I can’t ask her to put my resume at the top of the pile, or highlight my application to the hiring manager, etc.

    I don’t think I’m asking for anything at all, really – I literally just want to give her a heads up that I’ve applied. And I don’t intend to write her a novel (*unlike this post!), but I need something to say other than that one sentence. What would be a good next sentence and/or generic closing for something like this?

    1. LibbyG*

      Would you be comfortable writing something like, “If it turns out that I’m a good fit, I’d be delighted to work with you!”

      1. Matilda Jefferies*

        Something like that would be perfect! Thanks for cutting through the clutter of my overthinking.

        1. Reba*

          Yep, and you can warm it up with general friendly filler like, “hope things are going well for you” or “looking forward to seeing you at Industry Thing!”

          Good luck with the application!

  51. best laid plans..*

    How can I approach my boss about expanding my duties?

    When I was originally hired, we talked a lot about leadership potential. Unfortunately, my co-worker developed cancer (he’s fine now), but i needed to spend a lot of time covering for him, which should have been the time I was developing cross-training and working on leadership. Then once he recovered, I became severely ill and it took a few years to sort out. Now I am graduating with an advanced degree and am healthy again, is it too late to approach my boss about going back to the original plan? If not, how can I do this?

    1. geesenoises*

      It seems like it would be a good time to do it, since you can frame it in terms of finishing up your degree. “Now that I’ve completed my M.S. in Teakettle Engineering, I was hoping to take on more responsibility and cross train at work. I’d like to continue learning more and do more work in line with what I studied for my degree.” You can acknowledge the unfortunate circumstances that added to this delay, but it seems to me like this is a great time to bring it up regardless.

      1. LibbyG*

        It does seem like a good time. And it might be less about “going back to the original plan” and more what you’ve learned in recent years about your professional strengths and goals.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would bring it up! It’s never too late, things happen and get in the way of development. Now the waves have settled, go ahead and talk to the boss. It may be that there’s no longer room for it but I doubt that, unless the company has started to downsize or something unfortunate.

  52. Mediamaven*

    Just a comment – please don’t eat a tuna sandwich in toasted paleo bread in a tightly enclosed conference room and then act offended when people in the meeting are bothered. It’s up to everyone to be courteous of colleagues and sometimes that means you making a compromise with your food or where you eat it, not that everyone else has to deal with it.

    End rant.

    1. Mike*

      Sorry, I couldn’t hear you…I was heating up some leftover salmon in the office microwave.

      1. Murphy*

        Ha! I’m in the second week of my new job, and the other day I mentioned that I was not going to microwave my leftover fish. They told me I could if I wanted to! :-o

        I will not. I’m not a monster.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Oh God! I HATE the smell of tuna and have (while in a very pregnant and cranky mood) walked up to a coworker and told him to get the hell out of the office with that shit.
      We are really good friends so it wasn’t as bad as if I had done it to someone else, but we still laugh about it. I got a text from his wife apologizing that she hadn’t “trained him better during her pregnancy”. She also didn’t buy any tuna salad lunch kits for a long time.

      1. jDC*

        When I was pregnant the smell of cheese made me ill. Totally unavoidable. Thank goodness i am back to my cheese eating ways.

    3. Lily Rowan*

      There was an amazing to-do on this nonprofit Facebook group this week, where someone took a picture of the salmon sandwich someone had put down directly on the conference room table!!

    4. Jaid*

      Ugh, something about microwaved meat at work has been bugging me. I’m fine at home, but when my co-worker has her warmed up roast chicken, there’s this odd smell to it…

    5. LightFixture*

      And sometimes being courteous toward others means not freaking out about what they are eating.

      1. Mediamaven*

        Sometimes it does. But no one was freaking out. This person should have confined her sandwich to her office instead of a stuffy conference room. I literally ate tuna all day and said I told my team that I was staying in my office to eat it so I wouldn’t bother anyone. If you are going to eat something that is notorious for being offensive in an office, it would be nice to say, please let me know if my food is distracting to anyone and I’ll wait to eat it!
        Sometimes we have to make sacrifices to be courteous.

        1. LightFixture*

          I disagree that eating tuna should turn someone into the office untouchable. (Warning colleagues, hiding in office, etc.) I would find it very embarrassing to be called out on my lunch choice, especially for something as common as tuna.

          I find the smell of McDonald’s repulsive but I wouldn’t call people out for eating it. I think other people’s food choices aren’t fair game for comment, even if they happen to bug you.

          1. Lilysparrow*

            No, eating intense smelling food in an enclosed space where others don’t have the option to leave is rude.

            It doesn’t matter what the food is. It matters that you’re stinking up the joint to a captive audience.

            If you doused yourself in Axe body spray or started burning incense in the conference room, it’s the same thing. Noxious.

    6. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      The other day a coworker was eating a full on basket of giant crab legs. Yum but the cafe/kitchen area stunk all damn day.

    7. BigRedGum*

      Pretty sure someone microwaved fish sticks in our break room this week.

      Please, just stop.

  53. LibbyG*

    What are the norms in your workplace about using phones and other devices during meetings?

    I teach in higher ed, and some of my colleagues are all “I don’t ever want to see your phone out everrrrr!” But in meetings I go to, I see people glance at notifications and occasionally step out to return messages, or even use devices to look up stuff related to the meeting. So that’s been the standard I’ve held students to.

    But I’d be interested to hear about the variation in norms for phone/device use during meetings that folks here have experienced.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      At my workplace, people leave phones out and occasionally check them, and I always assume they have a good reason to do so. No one says anything about it. I always bring my phone to meetings because that’s where my calendar lives.

    2. ceiswyn*

      I use my phone to take notes, as that helps me stay focused.

      Admittedly, if the meeting is particularly boring or irrelevant to me (I’m looking at YOU, All Hands meetings) I may then proceed to checking Facebook. The way I see it, if you want me to pay attention, you gotta give me something worth paying attention to. And believe me, it’s better to have me distracted than bored and disruptive :)

    3. Lora*

      Oh jeez, it’s all over.

      At the level most of my colleagues and I are at, it’s understood that sometimes you will have something urgent come up and you need to step out. It happens. We’re all constantly juggling priorities. We can all definitely get calls that are “hey, the regulators are here and they want to talk to YOU!” or “the cops are here and they’ve arrested half the welding crew for drug dealing, now what?” or “there’s a crater in China where one of our suppliers used to be! nobody knows how many dead!” that are more important than a review of the quarterly sales and production rates.

      I’ve also had jobs where there was definitely a thing going on where people had meetings just to talk talk talk talk talk endlessly about crap without ever making a decision or taking some actions, and of course they wanted you to put your laptop away! How can they ever pontificate about “if only we knew what Data X is, then we could definitely have some kind of a meeting about that to discuss the possibility of scheduling a Kaizen team to work on it with full support of course from 4385472 other middle managers blah blah blah” if you do something as crass as *open your laptop and look up Data X and then say it out loud*??? So they complained that people who brought laptops and phones “look disengaged” at meetings. The obvious solutions of:
      1. have an agenda, don’t dither for hours aimlessly about crap
      2. have action items that people must do and decisions they must make. Make a RACI matrix if you must have something to point at, but mostly people do actually need to DO things
      3. invite only the people who MUST be there, don’t invite everyone and their brother, make the decision making team as small as feasible
      were all rejected as incredibly cold-blooded and rude. I pointed out to the boss that if you want to pay contractors $100-200/hour each, and your own people $100/hour including benefits, to sit around listening to people fart around for three hours every day, that is his prerogative, but I want 40% of my annual goals to then be “have tea with people who like to talk about themselves”. That job was not a good cultural fit for me…

    4. Booksalot*

      Senior employees check their phones and take calls, but expect the undivided attention of junior employees. Some managers even make their teams turn off phones/laptops and take hand-written notes, which IMO is prehistoric.

      (You like to handwrite, fine, but forcing it on everyone is nuts. Plus, when someone needs to reference a document or piece of media, we all sit around waiting for the computer to boot up.)

    5. Anonandanon*

      I wish we had a policy of no cell phones in meetings. My asshat coworker has an annoying ringtone and alerts that always go off in any meeting he’s an attendee. He will even interrupt himself in the middle of explaining something to see who is calling.

    6. BethDH*

      In small classes, I tell students what the expectations are (something like what you lay out). When I have students who have a problem keeping their use reasonable, I talk to them individually.
      For larger classes, I say something at the beginning to the effect of “these are the times it is appropriate to use phones in the class, and these are the times it isn’t” (some kinds of activities or parts of the schedule make it distracting — I don’t want them using them at all during other students’ presentations, for example). I explicitly name some appropriate uses as examples — taking a picture of notes from a small group discussion, looking up the syllabus dates, adding a calendar reminder about something like an event that I mention in class, etc.
      I also tell them if it’s something really important that requires communicating with someone outside the classroom (even by text), they should step out of the classroom to handle it. Some things ARE that important, and putting it in those terms seems to help limit unnecessary use.

    7. Nessun*

      My boss begins every meeting by stating “As we are here for a purpose, and with limited time, to be respectful to everyone please put your phone away and commit now to be present for this meeting. Check your phone and messages later.” And if he sees someone on their phone, he will call them out and ask them to stop – he’s done it to his own wife, who is also an executive at the company.

    8. PopJunkie42*

      Ha! I work in higher ed and everyone is CONSTANTLY on their phones. Deans/Department Heads/Leadership people are the worst offenders. I actually worked somewhere where my boss was awful and under a wider review (due to complaints) and got reprimanded for being on his phone all the time during our all-staff meetings. He ran the meeting!!!

    9. Jemima Bond*

      At my office you might take your (work, not personal) phone into a meeting and if it rang you would look who was calling and either apologise and cancel the call or say “excuse me I need to take this” and step outside the meeting room. You might discreetly react to a text msg alert. You would not check email or any internet stuff or in general be looking at your phone. Personally I think that’s rude; you should be paying attention to the meeting. It would be frowned upon, anyway.
      Handily in my part of the office no mobiles (or other devices like fitbits) may be brought in at all, so if you have a meeting in one of the rooms in that part of the office, nobody’s got their phone anyway.

  54. ginkgo*

    Curious what you all think of this, since it’s happened to me twice now: I find a job listing at a startup that looks promising, start to apply, realize the job description sounds familiar, Google it, and find that it was copied word for word from a similar listing at a large, established tech company. (In one case they removed one especially distinctive line, and in another they did some Mad Libs type stuff to replace the big company’s mission with their own and make some other things make sense for their business.)

    Is this as sketchy as I think it is? To me it shows that they don’t really understand the job they’re hiring for, as shown by the fact that A) they couldn’t write a job description on their own and B) they show no awareness of the fact that the duties of the role might be a bit different at their startup vs at a multinational company with thousands of employees. And I think it shows that they’re willing to be unethical, or at least to cut corners. Plus, these are UX writing/content strategy type roles, so you would think that successful candidates would be more likely to notice how things are worded…! For one of the listings this was one of many red flags, but the other one was one I’d have otherwise really liked to apply to… but I keep asking myself why they would do something like lift a job description from another company, and I can’t come up with an answer that goes anywhere good.

      1. ginkgo*

        Nope, it’s definitely supposed to be a job at a different company – they’re on the company website and the bit at the top where they talk about their company/product is original.

    2. M. Albertine*

      Having worked at a start-up for a little while now, with a little insight on hiring for such, here’s how I would interpret this: it’s probably a new role, they have an IDEA of what they need, but aren’t quite sure until they get a person in there to get into the weeds, and they don’t have the structure to write their own so they’re not going to reinvent the wheel writing a job description when they’re not even quite sure what they need.

      If you want to consider the role, you’d probably need to go into it with the understanding that the job may not end up being exactly what they advertised, you will probably be asked to do things outside your normal expertise, and there likely won’t be structure to deal with things or you will be asked to help implement such. They’ll be looking for someone who understands that and is excited by that kind of challenge.

      That’s how I got my job: I looked at the job description, the size and development stage of the company and understood what I would be signing up for, and was able to play up my experience developing processes and procedures in the interview.

    3. irene adler*

      You might forward what you found to the company HR dept that you know actually generated the ad.
      They might be interested in knowing what might be going on with their job ad copy (not that they could control the situation).

      It may not be an actual job ad at all. It might be someone who is hoping to get applicants interested in signing up for instructional courses. It goes like this: you apply. You are contacted and told that you are a good prospect for the advertised job (and they sweeten this by telling you just how wonderful the job is). BUT! You’d be a better prospect if you signed up for their course on skill x for a small fee (couple hundred dollars). So you sign up/pay the fee. And then nothing happens.

  55. Myrin*

    ~*~ Storytime with My ~*~

    Since I love telling stories about my life just for the heck of it, have one I encountered on Tuesday.
    (This is long but hopefully interesting enough.)

    The facts: I‘m in Germany and I work two part-time jobs, one being as a shelf-stocker in a drugstore (a chain, but doesn‘t exist in the whole country). I‘ve been here one and a half years and I honestly love it. I‘m in the store twice a week.

    The secene: The store has several departments, stuff like Cosmetics, Media, Pet equipment, and so on. I‘m responsible for the hygiene area (tampons, pads, products for incontinence…) but belong to the broader department of Cosmetics. Cosmetics is the only section which doesn‘t get just one, but two stockers; additionally, it has four people working there full-time: Berenike (the department head), Verity (her substitute), Saliha, and Bezek. After my former fellow stocker left, we had Fatma start in that position in April.

    Now turns out that Fatma apparently isn‘t doing too great. Since the two of us are doing the same kind of work simultaneously, I never encounter hers, but the others who deal with all the store‘s products all throughout the week do. She‘s apparently putting a lot of stuff into the wrong place every time we‘re there (which creates a lot of extra work for the full-timers), doesn‘t seem to grasp basic concepts of how certain procedures are done, and isn‘t very organised and/or neat.

    Now if I were the department head who had to deal with this all throughout the week, I‘d talk to her privately, alert her to the pattern I‘ve observed, and try to find out the reason for her many mistakes, which could be many different things: Is she sacrificing accuracy for speed (she‘s definitely a lot faster than her predecessor)? Does she have trouble understanding instructions language-wise (she‘s not a native speaker)? Is she colourblind? Does she have trouble reading? Does she simply not care and doesn‘t put in any effort?

    Generally, I would just have a really frank talk with her. I‘m apparently (according to many different people I’ve met and worked with so far) really good at doing so kindly but sternly at the same time; I‘m certainly not someone who beats around the bush.

    However, that‘s not really the case for any of the people here who actually are in a position to talk to Fatma about this. Berenike, who most definitely has the personality for giving frank talks to people, is always weirdly uninvolved with these kinds of personnel issues (I like her a lot and she‘s extremely good at the work involving the store itself, but she doesn‘t do any kind of managing at all). Verity sees the situation clearly but is hesitant to bring it up again and again lest it seems like she has a problem with Fatma, not seeming to see that that is really secondary in this case. And Saliha doesn‘t want to say anything because she and Fatma are from the same country and she opposes criticising her fellow countrymen. (Yeah.)

    So now we‘re in a situation where the only person who would have both the personality and the guts to actually lay it all out on the table for Fatma (me) isn‘t actually in a position to do so and honestly doesn‘t have any interest in doing so, either (this is really not my problem; I‘m but an innocent bystander tending to my stock).

    But I found it really interesting how all of the parties in power in this situation seem to view very relevant, work-related criticism as some kind of personal affront they can‘t subject anyone else to. It doesn‘t mean you have it out for someone if you point out to them that they‘ve been making the same mistakes repeatedly and aren‘t getting better! And it‘s certainly not literal treason to correct the mistakes made by someone you share a nationality with! And it‘s also not something to just ignore until it goes away!

    I‘ve pointed some of that out to Verity and also said that it‘s not exactly fair to Fatma to let her think that she‘s doing well and can just go on as is when in fact she‘s actually doing pretty poorly. And, I mean, if push comes to shove, they‘ll actually have to think about terminating her and it‘s really not okay to do so without any kind of big-picture talk beforehand. Verity seemed pretty receptive to that, so we‘ll see how it goes.

    But in the meantime, I really wish there was a German AAM and that the people at my work would read it and maybe act on it, too.

    1. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Wow, Berenike and Verity are really not doing Fatma any favors — if she ever moves on to another stocking job, they’ll probably be shocked at her performance, and let her go before the probationary period is up (if you have that there), or just not hire her if they ask her some questions about the process, since she doesn’t seem to be very good at it. Someone needs to work with her and train her!

      1. Myrin*

        Yeah, that’s my thinking as well (and yes, we have probationary periods and they’re crucial here because we have contracts for everything and it’s much harder to let someone go than in the US; although apparently it’s not too bad when the problem is that someone isn’t able to fulfill the core duty of their job).

        Fatma is very friendly and sweet and I understand that all of them feel it’s unkind to have a come-to-Jesus talk with her but I’m absolutely of the mind that it’s more unkind to let her go on thinking everything is okay when it’s decidedly Not.

        I personally think that this can only be solved by finding out why Fatma is making these mistakes. It’s definitely not that she’s afraid of asking when she’s unsure about something (she asks me plenty of stuff and I’m always happy to help), it’s more that she doesn’t seem to be realising that she’s even in a situation where she should be asking. I personally think that she’s not reading and looking at things carefully enough (it’s normal to sometimes put an article in the wrong spot when two products look very similar but she’s apparently doing it all the time) but 1. I can’t be sure about that, and 2. how do you train someone in something like that? Just ask them to slow down and take more time to really check each item? What if she still doesn’t do it right, then?

    2. Marion Q*

      That’s very interesting! Sorry if this sounds obvious, but I wonder if Saliha’s reluctance is not because of she sees criticism as treason (as you put it), but more due to upholding solidarity between two immigrants in your country? I’ve seen this dynamic in smaller scale: people from ethnic group A have no problem criticising each other, but when a person from ethnic group B gives the same criticism, they’ll close ranks and refuse to agree.

      1. Myrin*

        I can imagine that plays a role as well, although I can’t say for sure. The situation was apparently that Saliha was quite frustrated with a mistake Fatma had made the day before and went to show Verity so that Verity could talk to Fatma about it. Verity then suggested Saliha talk to Fatma herself so that it didn’t appear like Verity had nothing to offer but criticism (she’s the one who usually deals with the personnel stuff) and Saliha refused, stating “I can’t say anything against my compatriots!” (an aside: Saliha’s German is excellent, so this is very unlikely to be a case of her just phrasing something awkwardly).
        Whatever her reasoning, though, it’s very clear that both of them are conflating personal and professional criticism and don’t quite see that it’s not an attack on someone as a human to point out that they’re making mistakes at their job.

  56. geesenoises*

    I currently work at a university where I’m also getting my master’s. As an employee, I get my tuition waived. My workplace is incredibly toxic and I’m doing what I can to get out ASAP, but that means giving up my tuition waiver. I’m mostly applying to places that offer some form of tuition reimbursement, and hope to get a raise that will cover some more of it.

    My question is, should I get an offer, is it fair game to use my tuition waiver benefit in negotiations? i.e. I’m giving up this amount of free tuition every year, is there any way you can do a little better on salary or other benefits? And as a corollary, should I be fortunate enough to get two offers, with one job that offers a much higher annual tuition reimbursement rate, is it possible to negotiate using that as well?

    I should mention, this is not going to be a sticking point to me accepting an offer. I will be able to afford my tuition either way, but I’d like to maximize what I can get and of course it’s always better to have someone else pay for it then to pay for it myself.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      It’s worth a try, but I’d be prepared for them not to be inclined to match that benefit, especially if your master’s program isn’t a requirement for the position. I’d also be concerned of coming across as more focused on your program than the job (not that the master’s isn’t important, it’s just not necessarily going to start you on the right foot with a new job).

      On the other hand, this is field-dependent. If you’re getting your MBA and looking for a job in finance, for example, this kind of conversation might be totally normal and expected.

      Another thing to think about: How much longer do you have in your program? Would it make sense to keep plugging away at your current job, knowing it is just the stepping stone to your future greatness? Alternatively, are there any other positions at the university you’d qualify for?

      1. geesenoises*

        The jobs I’m hoping to get are in line with my degree (Data Analytics), so I don’t think they would be hesitant about reimbursing me at all. I was just curious about how this specific benefit factors in to job negotiations, since it’s not something that most jobs have (though it’s not uncommon either!)

        If I thought I could stick it out, I absolutely would. But at the rate I’m going doing this part time, it would be another 2-3 years and I just don’t think I can do it. From what I’ve seen while working here, the type of toxic and frustrating behavior that’s driving me out isn’t isolated to my department–we just happen to be the “best” at it.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Oh in that case it’s certainly good to ask! I work in higher ed and I know my colleagues can be hesitant to hire someone if they make a big deal about wanting to work here specifically for the tuition benefit, but I’m sure it’s different if you are moving to a job in your field. Good luck!

    2. Booksalot*

      Not only is it fair to use it, but I would also negotiate for it to be effective immediately. Every place I’ve worked has had a waiting period (6-12 months) before you could use a tuition benefit.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Yup, same (that reminds me – I need to check with my boss to see when I can begin to use my tuition reimbursement benefit). Negotiate either for the reimbursement or the higher salary so you can pay for your classes yourself.

    3. Admin of Sys*

      It is absolutely fair to use the tuition waver as a benefit you’d like compensated for or matched – it’s the equivalent of saying your current job gives you really good insurance deals or a great 401k and you’d like that accounted for in the offer if the new company can’t match the benefit directly.
      However, I’d be more hesitant in playing two job offers against each other. I wouldn’t do that even if it was just a pure salary comparison. It’s fine to come back and say “I’d like x” because someone else offered you x, but saying “Job B offered me x but I’d rather work here, can you match” often backfires and comes across as inappropriately playing companies against each other.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        I used that wording to negotiate my higher salary at my new job – nobody cared. They gave me what I asked for, and everyone is happy.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      You can definitely try to use the benefit in negotiations, but prepare for disappointment– the tuition benefit is pretty standard in higher ed, but definitely not widely common in the private sector.

      1. geesenoises*

        It’s an openly advertised benefit for the companies I’m applying to. Based on my Glassdoor research at the company I have an interview with, the reimbursement wouldn’t fully cover my tuition (it would be enough for about one class per year), so I was gauging how plausible it would be to negotiate for a higher salary on the basis of the difference between the tuition reimbursement benefit at the new company vs the tuition waiver I get at my current job.

    5. Flyleaf*

      You don’t need to share your current compensation with them, including the portion of your comp that is your tuition benefit. When you negotiate, talk about what you need them to pay in order to get you to move. You should feel free to base this number the full package, including benefits, bonus, equity, and base salary.

  57. GoldFinch*

    I am a full time, hourly exempt employee of my company (they never told me this, but I get paid straight OT not time and a half if I put in extra time which they need me to track because it impacts the LOE in the contract), but the actual preference is if I work an hour late today, sometime before the end of the pay period I leave early or come in late and am otherwise treated like salaried exempt). I work exclusively on a federal government contract that is about to end (December) but we won the follow on. The new contract has a different structure. The government removed the “project management” line, so if there isn’t something specific that I am doing, I have no where to bill my time. Under the current contract I take government training courses, so some desk research in prep of other things etc with my down time. I asked the program manager what this means. She said it means taking PTO if there isn’t a specific task to do. Well, clearly this sucks and I told her that it wouldn’t be sustainable for me (and a lot of the team). She is aware and believes that this can be addressed – what was in the RFP from the gov’t is generally trumped by what is in the actual work plan that gets approved for the contract. And if not, she is also aware that they will have to turn more and more to consultants to do the work. And I’m not doing this job as a consultant without a pretty huge raise.

    I’ll stick around while job hunting obviously, so here is my question. Will they have to adjust my status in any way? I’m an individual contributor for the most part. I occasionally manage projects – ie 3-4 of us will come together to put together an analysis that will take maybe 2 months and there is a designated leader who directly interfaces with the client and divvies up the work and is responsible for the final product, but I don’t supervise anyone. And while the analyses that we do involve millions and millions of dollars, I don’t make any sort of financial decisions. I develop the format of the form so I do make decisions as far as that goes. And my job is also to make recommendations on how the government should do things. My salary is waaaay higher than the threshold for non-exempt.

    1. BigRedGum*

      I work with a lot of government contracts, and it always just depends on what the fine print of the contract says. Yuck. I’m sorry you’re in this position.

  58. Job Search Shuffle*

    Yesterday I just accepted a temp job (not in my field, no benefits, but the pay is good) and, of course, a few hours after I accepted it one of the permanent positions I applied to schedules a phone interview. For what is tentatively scheduled as my second day at the new job. Ugh.

    I have a whole week before the temp job starts when I’m completely free, but of course things have to overlap. I just picked a time that was as close to lunch as possible and am hoping I’ll be able to slip away for an early lunch, do the interview, and then come back, but I’m kind of dreading dealing with everything if the job prospect moves forward. I’m sure everyone will be super understanding if I get the job, and I know I can’t count on it either way so accepting the temp job was the right move, but ugh.

    1. Coder von Frankenstein*

      Ack, yeah, that’s annoying. I always hate the uncertainty of situations like that.

      On the plus side, you might have the permanent job you want soon!

    2. Lilysparrow*

      That’s the nature of temping, though. Everybody knows it’s temporary, nobody expects you to pretend you’re not still looking.

      I’d just be very straightforward that you need a long lunch because you got an interview for a permanent job.

      If they wanted an exclusive commitment, they’d hire direct.

  59. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

    Has anyone else seen the news about New York’s new sexual harassment law? It takes out the “severe and pervasive” requirement, so a lot fewer behaviors will be able to slip through the cracks, hopefully

    1. Lisa Mark*

      I’m starting to realize how much of sexual harassment comes down to intent vs. the actual action. I had two different male bosses that put their arms around my waist. I twisted out of it and made a note to keep my distance from both. But what I realized was, one of them, it’s what I’d seen him do to his daughters and I was their age. He didn’t mean anything by it. The other wanted to sleep with women and so when he did it, it meant something totally different, it was a testing to see if he could inch me along. Same action, but totally different intent. And, the kicker is, this is based on my judgment of intent, which makes denial from the harasser so easy.

      1. Wellthen*

        But that’s not true – intent doesn’t matter when it comes to sexual harassment. You can do something that was not intended to be sexual harassment but is. There’s never well intentioned harassment.

  60. facepalm*

    Any advice for coping with a new job in an open office? I’m a HUGE HUGE HUGE introvert and I got a great new job, but there’s an open office. Each person has a desk/table for one person that has a very small divider and faces another person. I am trying to convince myself I can cope and it won’t be the end of the world. . . but it is giving me all kinds of anxiety. Not just advice like noise-cancelling headphones or signs saying do not disturb, but any ideas for creating some semblance of privacy/tuning other people out without looking like an total misanthropic antisocial person they regret hiring? A tall coat rack by my chair? I’m at a loss.

    1. pugs for all*

      take breaks. Get up, take a walk to the bathroom , make sure to take your full lunch. I often take walks just to be alone with my own thoughts for while before returning. Getting out of the hubbub helps my head.

      I too am an introvert in an open plan office and I find it exhausting. Don’t be surprised if it takes up a lot of energy as you get used to it. You will figure out what works for you – but definitely get headphones!

      1. Admin of Sys*

        Seconding the plants, if the office allows it. Assuming the person opposite you isn’t horrifically allergic, get a pothos or some other low-light happy plant and put it between the two of you and then give it the ability to climb into a hedge-wall format.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Not really advice, but I’ve worked in a mostly open office for 6 years now, and assuming other people are working and not slacking off and being loud, I really have not found it to be that bad. I get they can be super frustrating in some work cultures, but I’ve never experienced an issue, and I’m generally a fairly distractible (and introverted) person. Even when I’ve had a desk facing another person, if I was working, I didn’t really notice since I was focused on my own computer. It helps to have coworkers who are pleasant and generally likeable, so hopefully that’s your situation. Beyond a “good morning”, or a general “how was your weekend”, I don’t feel like I was required to be any more social than I would have been in a more closed office.

      I don’t think you can bring in any furniture or anything like a coatrack. It would probably look weird, and it may even be against the fire code. But really, don’t borrow trouble yet. It could be just fine.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I just left an open office space and NO ONE talked to each other. It was as quiet as a library every single day. So I agree that it is a fine space for an introvert. I was more uncomfortable with not having private space to make a phone call or look up my Amazon order on my computer for a sec. And it drove me crazy that I had to find a huddle room just to have a chat with a colleague about work. Ugh! So happy to be free and back in cube!

      2. Nessun*

        I’m an introvert in an open plan office. I’ve found that as long as I have a wall at my back (there are several desks that will work for that, and it was not an issue to request one as a reasonable accommodation), I am fine with the space around me. I use noise cancelling headphones to focus, and I find that with my computer in front of me I have no direct line of sight to anyone, which also helps. I agree that it’s worth seeing how you can work in the environment, and then look for reasonable things you can do to tweak the space. A coatrack or anything large and obtrusive is more likely to draw comments rather than give you a better space, but you may find it’s fine as it is.

    4. MoopySwarpet*

      For a short period of time, we had an open office kind of layout. It wasn’t intentional, but was during a growth period where we needed more bodies and were working on moving to a bigger space. There were 4 people in our space, but also the boss was just off the space so people kept the idle chit chat was kept to a minimum.

      The hardest part for me was when/if several phone calls came in at once. I found it extremely difficult to concentrate on the call I was on while hearing small bits and pieces of the other 3. It didn’t help that I was the most senior and needed to listen in to other conversations when I wasn’t on the phone to help with training.

      Headphones when I needed to hyper focus on a project was my lifesaver. Generally, though, I was able to tune out the background chatter.

  61. Laura Loreli*

    What questions would you ask a new supervisor? I’m thinking things like what annoys her, what communication medium she prefers, etc.

    1. Laura H.*

      I’d axe asking what annoys her.

      But communication and how they want you to inform of lateness etc. (I’m punctual but life happens- knowing that I have a process in place to CMA if I need it is a huge relief) are definitely good questions to ask!

  62. The Problem with HR*

    Anyone read the Atlantic website article posted yesterday “The problem with HR”?

    Really insightful article shows that HR is setup not to help solve sexual harassment in the workplace, but rather to protect the company.

    It also notes that 70% of HR employees are female. Coincidence or just historical hiring preferences?

    Read the article and let me know your thoughts.

    1. Tinker*

      It reminds me of a similar analysis I read somewhere about the way software QA sometimes is (which itself is Quite A Subject) — where setting limits or otherwise taking a stance opposed to the way events would otherwise unfold (that is to say “the work is not actually done at the point where the code works on your machine and you get the thrill of success” or “no, you cannot grab your coworkers” ) is necessary but often not appealing, and so responsibility for making that happen (or, really, responsibility when it visibly fails to happens) slides to a set of workers who are relatively low-level and often skew female or DFAB relative to their surroundings.

      Someone’s responsible for the thing, so it feels like the thing is being taken care of (back to that “the job is not done when you feel the thrill of success” thing), but if the people who have responsibility for doing the thing are limited in the power they have to make it happen — not just official power, but also things like perceived authority and importance — then the thing isn’t necessarily actually being taken care of. People typically don’t scramble to impress HR — so there’s going to be a difference in the amount of urgency people feel if they see a given initiative coming from them and not coming particularly strongly from the people they are scrambling to impress.

    2. Terribly Anon*

      Reading this article as someone who has gone to HR to report harassment was an experience. Yes, the HR liaison I was speaking with was quite sympathetic and wanted to probably do more than the corporate overlords were allowed. But everything had to be decided on a higher level and passed down through her. What should have been a fairly expedient experience based on the police report I filed, other evidence, and subsequent investigation, coupled with the employee handbook’s rules about harassment of any sort, turned into a months long debacle. Meanwhile, I’m still having to work with my harasser. Sure, there were a few limitations in place on contact/interaction, but the harasser was finally let go for performance reasons, not for actual harassment.

      So do I have any faith in HR? Not especially.

    3. Lora*

      Yes. I thought this was common knowledge by now?

      Was interesting that the one lawyer talking to men seemed helpful, though.

  63. Justin*

    How do I get off BEC with my coworker? I’ve mentioned him many times here, but suffice it to say I’ve mentioned to our directors some of the offensive jokes he’s made in our classes, and he’s also just not very good at the dense, technical stuff we do. I know how to deal with the work stuff.

    But he sits next to me and so I have to hear and see him just be annoying all day. Frankly I wouldn’t care if he was better at his work or if his work didn’t impact me. Yet I find myself thinking, “dude is so slovenly and irritating and so Right.There” that it impacts me more than it should.

    How have you managed to turn off your personal judgments (accurate or not) and keep your disapproval to someone’s work (esp if you aren’t their supervisor)?

    1. Justin*

      Work issue (as mentioned in the past): Jokes about me too, adopting a “what he thinks is” a black voice to talk to black class participants, jokes about mental illness, being disorganized and not focusing on work.

      Personal issue: He has mentioned the financial totals of Avengers Endgame every single weekend. I told him I didn’t care (I’m not like… against it? I saw it? I just don’t care?).

      Work issue: Misunderstanding the point of one of our classes and teaching it incorrectly.

      Personal issue: We are consultants and are required to maintain business casual. He wears a button-down polo but keeps it unbuttoned to a t-shirt. But the bosses don’t say anything, yet I feel (as a black guy), I probably couldn’t do this (nor do I want to).

      And so on.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        My usual go-to is to pretend I’m David Attenborough, watching a critically endangered species do what it do.

        “And now, the Fergus scratches through the desk drawers, looking for sustenance. The Fergus is partially endangered due to its incredibly forgetful nature – while it may hide food to avoid other Ferguses from stealing its stash, the Fergus will not remember where the crackers were hidden mere minutes after stashing them.”

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            I try to use the True Facts About (XYZ) guy’s voice. It usually works to give me a case of the giggles so I can least break the BEC-related bad mood for a bit.

        2. Justin*

          That’s a good plan. It’s harder when he talks at me, but when I’m just looking at him I can do that.

      2. Thesaurus Loris*

        Woof, he sounds like a piece of work -_-

        I wish I had more thoughtful advice, but when I was working in close quarters with someone who drove me absolutely nuts (he watched YouTube vids and Netflix all day without headphones, never did any of the work he was assigned and then claimed he didn’t “understand” it when asked, made a lot of inappropriate comments, etc.), I thanked the gods old and new that I didn’t supervise him and wasn’t responsible for him. And fortunately he was on a contract that was not renewed (shocker!). Allison’s recommended viewing someone’s irritating behavior like you’re an observant anthropologist, which can be easier said than done but occasionally helped me snap out of it. Also taking walks at lunch whenever the weather allowed :)

        Sending good thoughts your way – are you able to use headphones and at least temporarily block out the annoying stuff? Is there another workspace you could move to so you’re not right next to him?

        1. Justin*

          Can’t move. He talks through my headphones.

          But he’s also so lazy he is just not here sometimes. Today is a blessed day.

      3. Troutwaxer*

        On the subject of the T-shirt, they do make v-necked T-shirts, which is a thing I didn’t know about until I was in my fifties, so you might clue your coworker in about that particular issue – I was thrilled to learn that I could put one on under a button-down shirt or a polo and still look good. (Your coworker is probably trying to stay warm.)

    2. NicoleK*

      I’m not sure it’s possible unless you can wear noise canceling headphones. I have my own BEC coworker issue. And I’m stuck listening to her ask the same questions 5 different ways, chat with others about exercise and fitness and then complain about how busy she is, and hearing about her incompetencies.

      1. Justin*

        Oh he talks at me when I have headphones on. I hear a Charlie Brown noise and then I look at him realizing he’s talking (because he just starts talking without even saying my name).

  64. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    I have a question about thank you letters–I always write them, and I think they’re good, so no issues there! But I always feel awkward coming up with a subject line for them. What do y’all use?

    (And if you’re someone who is interested in a Hellmouth update, there should be a good one later.)

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I assume you’re talking about post-interview thank you notes? I either go with “Thank You” as the subject line, or just reply to the original email thread where we discussed coordinating the interview time and thus, do not need to figure out a new subject line.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        ^ I will also often reply to the original email….but I’ve also put a “Nice to meet you today!” as the subject line or “Thank you!” Depends on what my gut is for the interviewer.

    2. Mary Smith*

      I like to cc people’s bosses (one and two levels up), so I try to put something in the subject line like “[name] is amazing” or “great job [name]”

      1. Spool of Lies*

        Sorry, do you mean you look up your interviewer’s bosses contact info and email them to congratulate the interviewer on how well they did? Is this something other people do? Have you received good feedback about it?

        I feel like this might come off as…patronizing? But maybe I’m way off base.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Yeah, I’m not really liking that either. It’s squicky imo. Feels…condescending, at least.

          1. acmx*

            I think Mary Smith is thinking of literal thank yous for someone who helped/did a good job. Not a follow up email after an interview.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              Yeah, that would make a heck of a lot more sense! I always try to put in someone’s manager if I send them a “hey, thank you being so awesome with XYZ!”. Public compliments, especially paper trail, and all that. :)

            2. Spool of Lies*

              OHHHH that makes so much more sense. Thank you for clarifying. Sorry for my wild misinterpretation, Mary Smith!

    4. Anonymous Poster*

      I’ve used “Thank you the interview/firstinitial. lastname”

      I included the name stuff because I assumed there are lots of interviews and it helped them know up front who it’s from if my email address was obscured somehow or they had a bajillion others.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        Yeah I try to include identifying details in the subject line too. If they saw any other people around the time they saw me, I want it to be clear who’s sending the email even without opening it.

        If there’s been an email chain around the interview already, and all the same people are on it as are on the “thank you” I will sometimes just reply to the chain so I don’t clutter up their inbox.

    5. Drew*

      I think “Thank you” is fine, or possibly “Thanks for the interview” if you got the sense that a more casual tone would be OK.

      Thanks for the update warning – I’ll be refreshing throughout the afternoon!

    6. Alfonzo Mango*

      I just write ‘Thank you for your time” so they know what it is and can delete if they don’t care to read it

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I always respond to the original email correspondence, that way they can look back at our previous stuff to refresh their minds if they needed to.

      I wouldn’t stress too much on that, “thank you” is plenty.

    9. Coverage Associate*

      “Great to meet you” or “nice to meet you”

      These days, I usually don’t exchange emails directly with my interviewers until after the interview.

  65. yala*

    So. Things have gotten Probably Not Fixable with my supervisor lately. My annual review is coming up in a few months and I just got a “final warning.” These are mostly problems I’ve never had, and certainly never to this extent, and I know I could do better, but at this point I’m just under the weight of my own failures.

    But.

    There are positions opening up in other departments in our workplace in a couple of months. I talked to my grand boss about applying for a transfer and she said she thought I would be a good fit for one of them (this was before the final warning meeting, but GB knows sup and I have been having trouble). We don’t do transfers apparently, but if I apply I’m at least guaranteed an interview because I work here.

    Should I like…discreetly ask the supervisors in the other departments about the job? I’m not even sure what to ask. But just finding out what it entails, what they’re looking for, etc. One of them I’ve worked with on joint projects before, another I don’t know very well at all.

    And I have to wonder if it’ll even matter. Like. If my problems are known even out of the department, or if they ask my current supervisor about my behavior/performance then…am I just sunk and making a fool of myself? How do I even interview anywhere when I feel like such a failure at my current job?

    (…still a little salty at my super and hr for not granting me reasonable accommodation. I didn’t have a diagnosis back then and by the time I got one it just felt absolutely moot, but it would have solved A LOT of these problems. Not all, but a lot.)

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I have to give you kudos for recognizing the situation for what it is. I was in the same spot a long time ago and couldn’t put all the pieces together. My boss hated me and nothing I did could keep me in my job…even though I hated working for my boss.
      First, look up your transfer policy and see if you are even eligible to transfer if you have a PIP/final warning.
      Second, yes, the hiring manager will talk to your current manager. If your current manager is a super jerk and wants to ruin you, then he will say terrible things and you shouldn’t bother. But if you think he just wants you off his team, then apply.
      Next, tell your boss that you are applying for a transfer. He will likely get an email as soon as you finish the paperwork and you don’t want to piss him off with a surprise. See if he will support your transfer.
      If he won’t, then you will know that you need to look outside for a job. It will suck, but you will know that is your path.
      Good luck to you! This is a nasty boat to be in, but you can move past it and get into a better job and better mental place!

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      Is the diagnosis an ongoing thing? Because if so, go get your accommodations. I’d also check into how accommodations should work LEGALLY, because I don’t think a firm diagnosis is required. If you’re under the care of a doctor and they say you need something, it doesn’t matter if they don’t have a name for your condition yet. Be really sure they aren’t screwing you over in a legally problematic way here.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        You’re correct. When I applied for FMLA at my old job, my doctor just said I had bowel and bladder issues – we still don’t know what the underlying medical issue is that caused this, but HR approved my intermittent leave.

  66. Thesaurus Loris*

    Has anyone made the move from grant writing/nonprofit fundraising to proposal/technical writing? I’ve worked at nonprofits since college and while I love the mission-driven type of work, I’m also kind of experiencing some pretty heavy burnout and compassion fatigue, not to mention the stress and uncertainty of funding year to year. Also turned 30 and am having a crisis of “am I fulfilled doing this stuff anymore?” which is a factor in why I’m looking for something new.

    I was approached by a recruiter about a proposal writer position that is more geared towards sales and contracts but I think might still be a fit based on the grant writing skills I’ve picked up and honed through the years. Has anyone made this transition and/or do you have any advice or things I should consider? Super preliminary; they only phone screened me w/ potential for interview, but I have been thinking more and more of moving out of nonprofits for a little while…and I hate to admit it but I feel a little guilty about it. There’s so much important work being done that needs support but I’m tired of taking things home with me (emotionally, but sometimes literally lol). I’m also SO darn close to paying off my student loans and it’d be nice to make a little more money…

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I think it depends on what kind of technical writing (some areas need a working knowledge of X program or field), but -from my limited experience – your background could make the transition fairly easily!

      I was a journalism student who realized a few months into my first broadcast job after I finished college that I really didn’t like the field… anddddd I ended up doing technical writing/editing for a couple years until I figured out what I did want to do. I found a lot of the skills to be very transferrable, both going from journalism to tech writing, and then from tech writing into PR/marketing. I also know my soft skills have played a large role in that as well though (and I could see some of my coworkers from the tech writing job having a harder time making that transition, or visa versa with the other jobs).

      1. EddieSherbert*

        PS I know it’s easier said than done, but you certainly don’t have to feel guilty about looking in another career direction! I work part-time with a non-profit (10 hours a week), so I certainly understand – I have also struggled with guilt over not doing more, or taking a vacation and it’s hard for them to cover me, or when my SO and I discuss moving away from the area “someday in the future” – in my experience, most nonprofit staff really struggle with self-care and putting themselves first (whether that’s one evening off, taking a trip, or getting a new job), or any life changes that might affect the group). It’s OKAY to put yourself first :)

        You can always volunteer or something later (after giving yourself PLENTY of time to settle into a new routine) if you find that you are still interested.

    2. Lady Director*

      If your grant writing experience is for “contract-like” grants then it’s easy as pie. There are some differences, but genuinely it’s not awful.

    3. Grace Less*

      In terms of supporting worthy causes, it doesn’t have to be either/or. More and more employers are incorporating community service into their culture. Plenty of them have once-a-year high profile events, but there are some that have ongoing causes/missions. I know a local firm that pays employees time while they deliver meals to shut-ins. Another handles all marketing and PR for a small child-focused charity.
      Make the right decision for your needs, and you will find ways to keep helping others.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      I think you should go for it. I wasn’t a grant writer before falling into proposal writing, but I’ve worked with proposal writers with your background, and they did great at the job. There’s a lot of crossover between the two.

  67. Slartibartfast*

    We’re doing “stay interviews” at my new place of employment, that’s the first job in my new field after a career switch. Spent 15 years as a vet tech but had to leave that for health reasons. When I took this job in October, it was sold as a M to F 8-4:30, rarely leaving later than 5. Since the rest of my family is up at 5 or 6 am and home between 230 and 4, that’s pretty ideal and the main reason I took the job. I’m also the family cook, so this meant I had time to plan healthy meals, help with homework, be available for activities. Some major life balance compensation for taking a job in a field that quite frankly isn’t all that interesting or challenging.

    Well. A few months in, instead of the last appointment booking at 430, they started booking the last appointment at 5 and double booking multiple appointments in the last hour, which means I nowrarely leave before 6pm. Plus they added a late night early in the week, which happens to be the night the majority of my kids’ after school activities fall on, and that means about every other week I don’t leave work until after 7. That’s an 11 hour day. This is having a major snowball affect on my health and my work/ life balance – needing to work a shorter day was the number one change I needed! I’m ok with an 8 hour day, 9 begins to be painful, 10 (my old job’s shift length) is draining to the point it takes days to recover, and now there’s 11 hour days in the mix. This is not sustainable to me long term, but I want to make it to a year before I think about looking elsewhere. The pay is decent, good benefits, and my boss and immediate supervisor are both great. I also know it’s not sustainable on the business end to have 4 people pulling 1 to 2 hours of OT every day and the other 3 are also feeling burned out. I just don’t know how blunt and honest I should be and am in need of some scripts to use. I am socially inept and overly blunt/honestt, so often what I meant as a neutral observation comes across as a complaint. And while I probably will leave if nothing changes, I don’t want to play that card. Thanks y’all :)

    1. Coder von Frankenstein*

      A rough draft:

      “I’m concerned that the work schedule we’ve moved to is unsustainable. Work-life balance was an important factor for me in taking this job, and while I don’t mind pulling overtime now and then, I can’t do it week in and week out. I know other folks on the team are also struggling with this. Do we have a plan in place to get the workload back to a manageable level?”

      (Trying to frame it as a cooperative discussion, you and your boss working together to solve a problem; and providing an opening for the boss to explain that they know it’s a problem and they’re doing XYZ to address it, because they might very well be. Also, noting that work-life balance is an important part of the job for you is a way to get the message across without having to say outright “I’m going to leave if this is not fixed.”)

      1. Coder von Frankenstein*

        Also, after reading up on “stay interviews,” it sounds like the whole point is to find out if there is something that might make you decide to leave. That makes it even more important to make sure that your boss understands this is a deal-breaker over the long term. It isn’t “playing a card,” it’s providing information that your boss is asking for and needs to know.

  68. WMM*

    I will soon be applying for my first job in 10 years after staying home to raise special needs kids. I am both excited and scared of starting this process. I have no professional network where I live, and I did nothing to keep long distance relationships of any kind with my previous managers or coworkers. I have BS and MS degrees in engineering. The first jobs I am looking to apply to would be to build references and get back into good working habits at a lower level of stress than what I was doing when I stopped working a decade ago. How do I sell myself? Am I selling myself short by starting with something for which I’m over educated? My hope was that the MS from a ranked school would help balance the decade outside the career path. I do fear, though, being pigeonholed as a technologist when I later want to move into more engineering aligned paths.

    1. Lora*

      So for the network, join whatever kind of professional society there is available for your kind of engineering. AIChE, ISPE, whatever. Also those Women In Engineering type groups: SWE, WEST, etc. Go to the monthly meetings, organize a talk, whatever. They’re usually looking for volunteers to help organize programming and events. That way you’ll meet everyone.

      Your best bet is probably getting whatever you can do via an A&E firm and using project work to build your resume. The people doing most of the actual design/build/validation work will be folks with much less recent experience than the A Team (well-known people with 25+ years of expertise): they will still charge the client (i.e. me) $250/hour for Well Connected Guy’s time, but in real life I know it’s the $50/hour person behind the scenes making sure my drawing tags are annotated correctly. And that’s fine! It’s experience, and they’ll gradually put you on more and bigger projects as they get to know you and find your strengths, which will happen a lot faster than if you were an in house engineer at a company whose main product is Not Engineering. You’ll be bouncing from project to project often enough to accumulate like…more Experience Points, if that makes sense? You start doing Boring Drawing Checks for Customer A, and then Customer A has a project building a small warehouse and they remembered how nice you were, and then your employer needs someone, anyone, a warm body for Customer B and you end up designing a wetland remediation or whatever…

  69. Anon for This*

    I have a dilemma I was hoping you all could weigh in on. I work in a large company and just got a great promotion with a huge pay bump on a different team than I currently work on. Yay!
    My question has to do with the senior leadership on the team I am leaving. My grandboss has repeatedly discriminated against the women who work underneath him, and I don’t know if I should report it or not. We have a place to supposedly anonymously report concerns like this, but given the timing, I think it wouldn’t take much sleuthing to figure out who reported it. The company line is that retaliation is not tolerated, but based on things I have seen, I don’t think it always plays out that way.
    The things that have concerned me are things like:
    • 80 percent of his direct reports are male, even though the rest of the team is 90 percent female
    • For the last two years, only men on the team got better than middling evaluations. (Our company has a forced bell curve where only a very few people can get a better than average evaluation.) This again despite the fact that our team is 90 women and in more than one case, a woman’s direct supervisor initially gave her a better evaluation.
    • For the last four leadership positions on the team, they have gone to men, and in three of the four, only men were interviewed.
    I could give several more examples, but these are the most glaring. I feel like I should report something for the greater good, but I’m also afraid it might come back to bite me. Thoughts? Advice?

    1. LCL*

      Work in your new role for awhile until you are positive they will keep you. Then report him. My answer would be different if we were talking about workplace safety.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        Yep. I would talk to the HR rep that was helping with the promotion just to get an idea of who to talk to about this. It’s temping to do an anonymous report, but that starts an official investigation. I’d rather talk directly to an HR person who can take the feedback and give you an idea of their interest in pursuing the issue. It’s possible that they know and don’t care, then at least there isn’t anything in writing that could be tracked back to you.
        I wish we lived in a world where we knew this information would be taken seriously and corrected, but we aren’t there yet.

        1. Anon for This*

          I actually haven’t worked directly with an HR person for the promotion–just with the hiring manager. The HR part has taken place in the background. We do have an HR rep who covers my area, but she isn’t super helpful. Maybe I could reach out to the rep in the new area?

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      As I was fine with blowing up the bridge at my last place, I made it very clear why the last 12 people who left were A) all women
      B) all leaving for significantly better positions both in title and pay
      C) Very clear they would never consider a position at that company ever again
      D) offering every woman they worked closely with job hunting tips and offers to be a reference

      I also called the VP and lying liar-face to his face and showed him proof of his lies.
      But like I said…I was ready to nuke that particular bridge

      (The hired 2 men to replace me)

    4. Lora*

      What is the grandboss’ position in the company? Above a certain rank, or depending on the political nature of that department, grandboss may be untouchable and they’d risk a lawsuit rather than give him reason to leave. That’s WRONG, but that is often how it is.

      For example, at PreviousJob, an utterly reprehensible paste-eating tool who couldn’t find a drug in CVS was mysteriously promoted, despite getting puking-drunk and grabbing women’s legs, crotches and breasts at team building exercises right in front of his boss. Repeatedly, at multiple team-building events. He was a principle scientist, which isn’t even THAT high a rank, but he was in a department that was absolutely critical to the company’s success. They felt they couldn’t afford to lose him, but they were managing to limp along with women leaving the department in droves and replacing them with young men fresh out of college, so they kept him and just kept rolling the dice. Their ENTIRE HR department up and quit – and it was a bunch of people – because their recommendation to the EC was, “fire this guy, fire his boss, clean house of the people who tolerate this behavior before we all get sued into oblivion, there’s been too many official reports and witnesses.” And the EC ignored them, over and over. Dude still works there, a lot of women don’t, so. Company still makes a big fuss about how diverse they are…

      At PreviousPreviousJob, the ONE guy who had stayed in the same department for ten whole consecutive years (everyone else ran screaming from the group….because of him) was thought to be indispensible because none of their actual procedures were written down, anywhere, despite multiple regulatory agencies requiring written standard procedures, but whatever, they felt that allllll the institutional knowledge in the universe was in this one guy’s head…and he was an abusive, screaming, throwing-things, inappropriate-commenting, slur-spitting, project-sabotaging, warehouse-pilfering, document-deleting a-hole. Like, they’d hire someone to document their processes after failing an audit, and then this a-hole would delete all that person’s work as soon as they uploaded it to the server, and if the person complained they’d be informed that all their work had to be approved by A-hole…who invariably said it was somehow “all wrong” but in no specific ways, and insisted that he was far too busy to help them with it. If he rage-foamed at a woman in a department meeting for three hours about what an incompetent b*tch she was and how they needed to stop hiring stupid b*tches, “she must have done something to provoke him” even if it was clear that she hadn’t. Eventually a boss told him, “VP may not let me put you on a PIP, but I can make 50% of your review based on getting along with your colleagues and institute 360 degree reviews and if you get a bad score on your review it will be out of the VP’s hands because that goes to Corporate. Do with that information what you will.” And then he quit.

      At PreviousPreviousPreviousJob, it was the VP’s useless nephew who could not STAND to be bossed by a woman (me) and caused the company to lose contracts. Was let go when the company lost a big enough contract that it went over the VP’s head and the company president came in to clean house at the local office.

      At PreviousPreviousPreviousPreviousJob, similar situation to FirstJobOutOfGradSchool: they brought in a new manager and didn’t check his references properly. He’d had only one job in his whole life and nearly got fired from it, except that company notoriously doesn’t fire ANYONE, but he’d been significantly demoted which for them is a big deal. Dude was an equal opportunity personality problem, I’ll give him that, but grandboss was just sort of an affable dweeb who didn’t know how to actually manage human beings, and when it came to personnel problems grandboss just shrugged and said, “they’re adults, they need to work it out for themselves” despite EEOC complaints against the company (not from me, but from many other women though he was nasty to men too). Then one day New Manager blasted the full force of his Personality at a regulatory auditor…and that was the end of that. New Manager fired and hauled out into the parking lot by security, grandboss made manager of money instead of people and semi-demoted, never really trusted again at that company.

      I have not ever seen a complaint to either HR or EEOC, or a lawsuit brought by an individual, go anywhere. I have only seen large class action suits have any effect at all. You can argue to people that if they suck out loud, nobody will want to work for them in a free market, but they really don’t care. It always seems to be some enormous mystery to them when they struggle with recruiting.

      1. Anon for This*

        Well that’s just depressing. He’s just below the VP level, so somewhat important, but the scale is my company is enormous, so fairly replaceable.

  70. MOAS*

    Idk if it was instinct kicking in or a one-off?

    I held an interview and there was just something about the candidate that felt off to me. Best way I could describe it was that I wasn’t getting good vibes from them. Nothing they said or did was outlandish and the resume was solid.

    As part of our internal process, my manager sits in with me with each interview. We then discuss the candidate; if they move forward, we schedule a practical. Any reservations I had, I pointed out to my manager and he allayed my concerns. I had wanted to pass on them, and he wanted to move them forward.

    Well we moved them forward to the next step of the practical. At the practical, the candidate started and 5 minutes in, bailed. They said they thought it was too confusing even though they were starting on the right foot.

    No hard feelings, I’m glad they bailed now than months later but I’m wondering if my initial thoughts about them were right or this was a one off thing.

    1. Turtlewings*

      It’s hard to judge when you’re working with a sample size of one, but I think it certainly leans toward indicating that your instincts were right. I don’t know how helpful it is to know that, though, really. Even if the same thing happens again, it’s not really fair to drop a candidate when you can’t articulate anything wrong with them. (Could even skirt discrimination issues, depending.) It’s certainly a reason to keep your eyes open and probe a little deeper with them, though!

    2. Commenter*

      Agreed with Turtlewings that it’s important to honestly consider if there might be a subconscious discrimination element at play. I just attended an Unconscious Bias seminar and they discussed how our instinctive feelings about people are strongly tied to how “like us” we perceive them to be — even if our rational/logical brains would immediately recognize that such a judgement would be inappropriate and potentially discriminatory.

      Which doesn’t immediately mean that we’re all terrible hopelessly prejudiced people! Just that it’s worth taking a step back and considering if your lizard brain might sometimes be sending you some less-than-helpful instinctive feelings about the people your higher brain is trying to objectively evaluate. :)

    3. Lilysparrow*

      Yes, your instincts were correct. There are often multiple subtle behaviors we can see and draw conclusions from, that we may not be able to articulate without longer observation or reflection. They are still real.

      FWIW, I most often have gut feelings that turn out to be right about people who are demographically “like me.” I don’t think that speaks to a lack of implicit bias, but more to the fact that I’m better attuned to behavior cues/patterms from people with a similar background.

  71. writelhd*

    We do this thing, and it kind of annoys me, and I’m unclear on if it should or not. Would it annoy you all?

    The entire company is broken into groups comprised of a mix of people from different departments, and those groups have to meet once a quarter, usually after our company meeting, to talk about stuff we’re given to talk about. It’s supposed to be about collecting ideas and fostering cross-department understanding. They ask us questions like “how do you see our mission and values being carried out in practice” or “what else should we do to make more money?” Certain people have to be the facilitators of these meetings, and for a while they even had the facilitators meet weekly(!) to try to accomplish some of these gathered ideas, which ultimately didn’t go too far because there was no guidance on what they were supposed to actually do and they weren’t the people with the actual resources to accomplish some of these ideas (company directors are exempted from this stuff), so it ended up feeling like a waste of people’s time. I feel like what happens with this kind of setup is the same group of people who are less willing to say no just end up having to be the facilitators of this over and over. In the groups most people participate a little and are reasonably good-natured about it, but I can tell people are a little tired of it and I do feel like the “facilatator” role keeps falling on the same overtaxed people over and over again (I finally asked if they’d please stop picking me), and there are a handful of people who have flat refused to participate from the very beginning. So what do you think? Is this an annoying thing, or a good thing?

    1. kittymommy*

      This would seriously annoy me. It sounds dumb and a waste of time, especially if the people who could actually implement the ideas are not a part of the meetings. I always find it interesting that those who come up with meetings like this are actually not participating! I mean if it’s such a great idea, why aren’t they there??

      Anyway, you have my sympathies and hopefully they are giving you a break from “facilitating”.

    2. Coder von Frankenstein*

      It sounds like what you’ve got is a meeting in search of an agenda. Which drives. Me. Up. The. Wall.

      So, yes, count me in the “annoying” camp.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      My company (specifically my grand-boss) started a “cross-department meeting” thing and I really liked it. It seems quite different from yours though… We met with other departments we worked with but don’t know well.

      For example Finance met with IT – we work together a lot but we usually just send group emails so by meeting and everyone giving an overview of their role and specialty we got a much better idea of who to ask for what issue and has improved some work flows. This has also lessened some of the work of the higher level managers because instead of an IT person with a question on the lending agreement requirements sending it to the controller, they send it to the person who actually works with the banks and completes the monthly filings. I can get them a clearer answer in a much faster turnaround time than the controller who has 500 other emails to sift through and prioritize.

    4. BigRedGum*

      The meetings are super annoying sounding. The only reason I attend things like that is to socialize.

    5. Gumby*

      If they don’t do anything with the suggestions, would it be completely obvious if you, say, kept the notes from a previous meeting to turn in a second time and just used the meeting time to socialize?

      I have had a company who did similar things but there was *always* feedback and we could see what happened as a result of the meeting. They wouldn’t necessarily take our group’s advice, but they did respond as to why, or that they might do part of it on this timeline, or whatever. So we at least felt heard. (Except for the one time that the discussion topic seemed geared at “look at how hard management is” and the responses to suggestions were all “that won’t work because…” and that exercise mainly annoyed us.)

  72. Cazfiend*

    I’m finding that I look young even in my early 30s, because the remarks and the way people treat me. Me and my colleague whose in her late 30s were promoted about 4 months ago to supervisors. I get comments from her and the older supervisors in their 50s or later about how young I am and how I can’t possibly know this or that. Even though I have more experience than a supervisor in his early 40s in my department, my colleague will go to him for advice even if she asks me first, like she needs to check with him. The material and procedures we work with haven’t changed since the promotion, it just means I get to delegate work that I would do previously to other people. I feel undermined and disrespected and I feel like my voice isn’t being heard. It also doesn’t help that the person who trained me likes to act like the ultimate authority on things and tries to keep this divide of old and new supervisors. Even though I’ve been very open about my experience, my colleague was very surprised that I had been here for almost a decade. It’s like they have made assumptions based on how I look. This is mainly coming from women so it can’t be gender thing as I am a woman too.

    I’m not sure how to deal with this. I’ve said I’m not that much younger than them and mentioned repeatedly my experience. But I always get you’re so young and get ignored or left out of the conversations.

    I would try to dress older but dress code is pretty relaxed and it would seem weird to do so.

    Any tips?

    1. writelhd*

      Just because it comes from women doesn’t mean it’s not gendered. If she wouldn’t do the same thing to a young man, it is in fact gendered.

      I am actually in similar shoes in some ways, and had a male colleague who also was. We both got it from clients more than coworkers just due to our client bases being a lot older than us (and in my case, I have always been The Only Expert here on my field so people have to go with what I say), and I actually think he got it a lot worse from clients than I did, but his job was more directly client involved than mine was, and his boss undermined him to his clients in ways that mine didn’t do to me.

      However I do still get this on occasion from colleagues, clients, or industry contacts in particular. Thus my tips are that you have to just own it and blow past it. Speak and act as if of course you know this, of course you’ve got this, and act puzzled rather than defensive when they bring age up directly. “But you’re so young” would be met with a puzzled frown and a “but I’m not sure how that relates?”

      1. Cazfiend*

        Yes you are right, it still could be gendered. I mean sometimes I think there might be a hostility towards younger people especially women. I’ve seen horrible remarks and behaviour when a young woman wears something flattering on her body.
        And yes I feel defensive so I’ve probably acted defensive too which probably does not help my case. I also think since I’ve been there since I was 22 plays into and maybe it’s just time to move on. But doesn’t mean this won’t happen elsewhere as even newer colleagues have done this.
        But thanks for your advice, it’s very helpful.

    2. ATX Language Learner*

      “Can I be candid with you for a moment? There have been several times that you have been disrespectful towards me and been patronizing and condescending when you speak to me and undermine my experience. I have x years of experience doing x and am confident in my skills. Can you please be mindful of this so we can have a mutually respectful working relationship?

    3. Argh!*

      Do you frequently make this kind of error in grammar? “Me and my colleague whose …”

      If you do, at least some of the disrespect may be for that and not due to age. It’s not fair, but older people do judge others based on usage and grammar. Studying up on common grammar mistakes would at least take that bias away. You don’t want to sound less educated than your peers.

      It’s indeed possible for women to have a bias against women. If you are dressing younger than they are dressing, they will notice. When I was young in my career, I had to deal with some of the “you’re so young…” business and I just countered it verbally. I don’t remember exactly what I said but it was probably something like “Please stop saying that. I have years of experience, and someone higher in the organization obviously thought that I would be successful in this role. I can’t help being younger than my predecessor (who had retired) so it’s an unfair point to make.”

      (it’s discriminatory actually, but not actionable under EEO law)

      So my 2 cents: dress like they do, wear your hair in at least a similar way, wear make-up or don’t, depending on whether they do, and brush up on your grammar. It sounds like you’re already dropping references to your time in the organization. You may want to be sure that you also talk about your successes there.

      Good luck!

      1. Cazfiend*

        It’s not a grammer issue, we aren’t that stuffy about those things here and I’ve had to proofread a lot of my colleagues emails so that would make no sense to me. I’ve actually been praised on my written work so just can’t see that happening.
        I think I’m just gonna ignore it or act confused as writelhd suggested. I think addressing it head on will just make it continue even more. For some colleagues I would do this but I don’t think they even realise what they are doing.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        I disagree. Unless you’re in a writing related field, and seeing those mistakes regularly in customer-facing or formal communications, most people aren’t going to make a huge assumption about someone’s age based on “who’s” versus “whose.”

        I would only make an assumption about a coworker’s age from their emails or IMs if they “rite in txt spek (n that’s mostly cuz its gonna get annoying quik)”.

    4. EddieSherbert*

      I feel your pain.

      At 31, I regularly get asked what school I go to, I’m been mistaken for a friend’s kid, gotten ‘young mom/teen mom/ comments when out with my niece, and (recently at a fundraiser I helped with) was asked if I’m old enough to serve alcohol (I said yes and the person replied “you know that means you have to be *18* or older, right?”).

      Luckily, my colleagues who have known me for years are awesome, consider me an expert on our products, and… they also know I won’t put up with that kind of bullsh*t. They are good at shutting down new people who decide “I’m too young” and have to verify whatever I say (“Eddie just told you the answer!”).

      I also suggest using a version of “Hey, I noticed you asked Joe the same question you just asked me. Just so you know, if you didn’t understand my answer, you can ask me to reword it or go into more details for you.” I like that one because it (rightfully!) points out that it makes THEM look they don’t get something (something that might be pretty simple) or like they’re scared to ask questions. No one wants to look like they’re that person!

      General “young” comments or jokes (people used to loveeee their jokes) I tend to respond with a slightly annoyed and very flat “Excuse me?”

    5. Frankie*

      Blazers are my best friend in these situations. Could you find some that are made of terry/sweater material that look a bit more casual? You can wear v-necks or t-shirts under them to dress them down. If you don’t wear much jewelry could you find a simple all-purpose necklace that goes with lots of your stuff? One piece of jewelry or some earrings (don’t have to be expensive) can make an outfit seem more pulled-together without dressing it up too much.

      I really, REALLY have to signal through my clothing. It’s taken a few years but I’ve figured out how to dress up a bit without looking too dressed up for my more casual workplace.

      I also find that when I have shorter hair I’m taken a bit more seriously. Like, shoulder length or above, vs longer and pulled back.

      You mention you’ve been there since you were 22, and I think that can definitely affect things as well. In the past I’ve had to struggle to be taken seriously when moving from a grad student role to a permanent employee role. People get used to a hierarchy and it can be tough to shake that up.

  73. Ruth (UK)*

    I wonder what experiences or advice anyone has regarding self-study at a degree level… I am considering the idea of doing a degree in Maths through the Open University…

    Some background: Maths and sciences were my strongest subjects in school. I was always ‘top of the class’ in maths. I also got a perfect score (100%) in my GSCE (standard tests at the end of year 11 in the uk) physics. I also did additional GCSEs in Electronics and Astronomy, where I did well.

    Unfortunately, teenage-me thought and felt a little differently than current-me and when it came to select subjects for A level (you drop all but 4 subjects when you go into year 12 in the uk), I was psyched out to be the only girl I could find considering physics, and one of only very few considering taking maths. I also wanted to be with my friends. In the end I took maths because I felt I needed it to pursue a science degree, but dropped physics (even though it was my favourite science) and instead took biology (my least favourite science, but the most popular science for girls, and with some of my friends taking it too) and chemistry. I ignored my GCSE physics teacher who tried very hard to persuade me to take physics at A level.

    I became unhappy with my subject choices, struggling most with biology where I lacked interest. I also began having mental health difficulties for other reasons, some related to school, some not. Long story short I effectively had a mental health crisis and dropped out entirely. A year later, I returned to complete my A levels, but did not want to “feel as though I was re-taking” and so chose completely different subjects, of which one was English, which is what I eventually did my degree in. I enjoyed studying and did well it but it never felt 100% right.

    I am now 29 and work in an administrative job which is ok – but I often regret sort of having ‘given up’ on the subjects that were my actual strongest fit… and am now considering the idea I could do a degree through distance learning and return to maths afterall.

    Because I haven’t done any maths in a formal/learning setting in the last 12 or so years, I have started again by re-self-teaching myself GCSE level (years 10 and 11) (which is very easy so far – I’ve covered the first 20%-ish of it in the last 3 days). I hopefully plan to also self-teach myself A-Level (which will likely be trickier…).

    But I’m also not sure if doing this will put me in way over my head… I don’t have a strong or clear idea of what I want to eventually gain, if I’m honest. I just feel as though I’m trying to correct a decision I regret. I’m 29 so not super-old to be considering studying something new at undergrad level, but not super young either…

    Also, I’ve got a burst of energy and enthusiasm for this now, but I’m worried I’m going to lose that, especially once it becomes more difficult! Does anyone have any advice for staying motivated with something like this? (or do you think this is all a silly idea!)

    1. Eeyore's missing tail*

      What’s your plan after you get in or earn your degree? That’s what I would focus on. Maybe try mapping out your goals while you’re studying on your own so you make help keep yourself on track and accountable. Good luck!

    2. ceiswyn*

      I’ve done a science degree through the OU. I did it part time, over 5 1/2 years, alongside full-time work.

      Yes, it’s difficult to stay motivated, even with a subject you love. But nobody is motivated to do the dishes or the hoovering; sometimes you just Gotta Do It Anyway. However you will find that you have to prioritise studying over fitness, or social activities, or whatever else you might normally fill your spare time with, and you have to be prepared for that. Habit helps a lot, so I found it useful to set aside a couple of specific evenings a week, and at least a half-day every weekend, for study.

      It costs a lot of time and money to do a degree for love, but that doesn’t necessarily make it a bad idea. But be honest with yourself about your reasons, and maybe take some time to think it over. The OU has some sample bits of courses on OpenLearn, so take a look at those.

      Finally, you’ll be glad to hear that you don’t actually have to self-teach yourself A-Level maths and physics :) The OU’s Level 1 courses assume no existing knowledge, and are basically designed to get ypou up

      2. Ruth (UK)*

        Thanks – that’s good to know about the OU level 1 course. I had a read of it and did think that seemed to be the case… I might try and go through the A level material myself first anyway… I’ve sort of decided that a good ‘test’ of whether I’d be able to stay motivated and get through degree level maths is to see whether I can get through A level maths myself first, which is risk free in terms of cost as I’m just self-teaching, so if I quit at this point, I haven’t ‘lost’ anything.

        Also, though I came out with no formal grade/qualification (cause I never did the exam), I did actually cover a large amount of the material already when I was taking it as a subject (I had just about completed the 1st year of A level maths) so it’s not completely new to me. When I look at it now, it feels familiar to work through.

    3. Jen Erik*

      Nice thing about the OU is that you only register a bit at a time, so you can do the first part and judge it for yourself. My daughter dropped out of school after doing her AS level – anxiety – and she’s now done half her degree while working – though due to medical issues, she hasn’t always worked full-time. Between that, and her dyslexia, it hasn’t maybe been a typical experience of OU – but the materials and tutors are good, and it’s been very doable. (Also, much cheaper than a regular degree.)

    4. Maths is math here*

      My story is a bit like yours, in that I showed early interest in math and physics, but social pressures (and judgements) along with some bad teachers derailed that and lead me to an English degree.

      And honestly? I HATED studying English. But I felt it was my only option–that I wasn’t good enough to study anything else.

      Now, many years later, I find myself studying math again. I’m doing it through free online courses. Like you, I don’t have a clear “reason” or goal, except I’m unhappy and unfulfilled in my job (one that is a natural career choice for an English major, which is probably why I don’t like it). I also have found that my job is becoming more and more technical, which my colleagues hate but I love. I’m hoping to capitalize on that but I’m not sure in exactly what way.

      For now, though, I’m honestly studying math to heal my own personal wounds…and I’m OK with that for now. It feels like it is something I need to do for myself, even if I never make anything of it. It’s free, so it’s a good enough reason. And if it leads me to a career change, great!

      Some motivational tips–make small goals for yourself and try to stick to them, like exercise. I also have a good friend who is also in school and we sometimes study together so we can feel like we have a social life. (And that means we can drink beer and study, right? RIGHT?). Once you make studying a habit, it becomes easier.

  74. Bunny Girl*

    So our department is a little short on space. We’re doing some restructuring but the truth is we really just don’t have enough offices for our faculty members. They just proposed something that’s going to irritate a lot of people and make stuff inconvenient for most of us, and what’s really frustrating is we’re still keeping our useless, disgusting break room, which could easily be turned into office space. The break room is supposed to be for our department, but other departments use it and feel they shouldn’t have to clean it because it’s not theirs. There’s not a single person in our department who use it anymore, and most people have microwaves and fridges in their own offices because they don’t want to use our nasty break room anymore. All the admin staff get people complaining about it, but it isn’t our job to clean up after grown adults and I will seriously go scorched earth if I’m asked. We’ve mentioned these issues and have told our department head multiple times that the room should just be used as office space, but for some reason he doesn’t want to offer it up. UGGGG

  75. Curious About*

    Curious how the group would hand a situation.

    Katie was at her first job out of college for several years where she acquired a lot of her career skills. After being laid off, she landed a new position fairly quickly. After she left, the owner of Katie’s old company was arrested by the Feds and has been charged with several financial crimes. While she didn’t work with the company directly involved (Boss owned several), all his companies were shut down. She had nothing to do with the financial side of any of the businesses and was doing legitimate and legal work.

    How does she address this in her resume for future roles? If you Google her old company, nothing comes up. There’s no website, no nothing. If you look at news under Google, you’ll see the articles about the investigation and court case.

    1. Tigger*

      I feel like it should be like this –

      COMPANY A (200?-200?) closed in 200?
      Title
      Bullet points

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      Do the articles say anything was wrong at her company specifically? I know some people just scan headlines and don’t actually read the articles, but it would definitely seem weirdly “doth protest too much”–like to preemptively say “Hey, there’s weird stuff around this company’s boss, but it was the other company, not this one.”

      1. MissGirl*

        The articles mention the main company where the illegal activities occur more so. Then some list the other companies. I’m wondering how much a hiring manager would dig or be curious about if a Google search doesn’t bring up a result.

    3. LadyByTheLake*

      I wouldn’t mention it at all in the resume. If it comes up in the interview, simply say “yes, I read about that in the news too! I didn’t work for that company, but it sure was weird to read about it.”

  76. kbeers0su*

    Looking for negotiation advice:
    I recently took a new role at my organization. I was previously a Director in a single-person compliance-related role and now will be a Director overseeing facilities, budget, management, direct client work, etc. So my title didn’t change. When I was asked by my boss about the opportunity, I was enthusiastic because this is the work I used to do before coming to this organization, and I’m excited to be back in it. When I asked about pay I was told it was a 5% raise. It’s not great, but I understand there’s major restructuring going on and my boss is doing a lot to advocate for folks to get pay updates across numerous areas.

    So the issue is that in my first week in this new role I learned that one of the three Associate Directors in this same area is only making 5K less than me. Meanwhile, I directly supervise two other Associate Directors. She has a lot of client-facing work, but none of the facilities or budget oversight that I do.

    The weird thing is that I haven’t officially accepted this role- although I started doing the work last week I don’t officially start until July 2. And I had to “apply” for the job, so I haven’t officially “accepted” (will have to sign paperwork at some point). So what do I do with this information?

    I feel like I need to go back to my boss to ask for more money with this information. I also found out (through another source) that I’m the lowest paid Director in our area of the organization. Even though no one else is doing the scope of work I am (the next closest person oversees a single facility to my 5 and has a budget 1/5 of mine).

    Thoughts??

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Yes – you need to bring this up.
      “My understanding is that the average pay for the Director role is closer to X that the 5% increase you previously mentioned. In order to accept the role I would need my compensation to be inline with the other Directors at this level.”

      1. Reba*

        Agree. You can use the concept of “pay parity” and wanting to make sure that salaries match roles and responsibilities.

        Good luck!

  77. Eeyore's missing tail*

    Last week I wrote in about my office hiring a temp for me while I’m out on maternity leave for 8 (maybe now 8.5) weeks. One of the ladies who was taking over a big chuck of my duties just told me that she’s leaving our department for another early next month. I’m super excited for her, but now my supervisor is scrambling. I’ve told him I’ll train the temp to do it (which is what that person should be doing since they’re being hired to do my job), but he’s stressing out that now he HAS to hire someone. Wasn’t that the point of this whole ordeal? To hire someone to temporarily handle my job?

    Oh, and at last check, we only have 2 applicants because my institution won’t publish the pay rate. And one of my coworkers (Jane) is convinced that the temp will be a friend or relative of one of our director’s and/or another coworker. And that the temp will somehow take my job from me while I’m on maternity leave. Jane has gone on ad nauseam about this. Nevermind that I told her they can’t get rid of my on maternity leave because that would be a lawsuit waiting to happen and my performance evaluation this year was exceeds expectations. Or that a lot of people get their foot in the door here by doing temp work like this, which is how I got my job here. Nope, part of my office is out to get rid of me and replace me with the temp. I’ll keep y’all updated on the temp saga.

    1. Argh!*

      Most places don’t publish the pay rate. “Excellent pay and benefits” means exactly nothing, yet they keep using it!

      1. Eeyore's missing tail*

        I know. I just think it’s funny that my supervisor is worried and I’m like “maybe we should put a pay range in there…” But, I’m just an assistant. What do I know? :)

  78. Free Meerkats*

    Presenting a work plan to address the molybdenum loading I talked about last week went very well. The superintendent now appears to understand the seriousness of the issue and accept the need for up to 20 man hours of overtime a week for an indeterminate time. The money will be nice, but the burnout won’t. At least it won’t be 12 on/12 off 7 days a week for two months that I did at FormerJob in an emergency. 44 hours of overtime a week is nice, but…

    1. BigRedGum*

      TWENTY HOURS OF OVERTIME A WEEK??????????????

      When i have to work an actual 40 I feel annoyed, but I have been told I am “such a millennial.” Thankfully my job just expects us to get our work done and that’s that.

      If you need the money though, it could be worth it to do that for a while.

      1. Free Meerkats*

        Man hours! Mainly divided up among 3 people with others available as we burn out. But the 44 hours a week was me. Those were nice paychecks because I got time and a half for up to 8 hours of overtime a week and double time after that. So I was getting triple pay for those two months. That was a great union contract.

        1. Elizabeth West*

          Holy crap, that’s what I thought but I was gonna say the same thing; that’s a lot of hours if it was only one person.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I did 20 hours of OT a week for eight months straight at one of my old jobs (a law firm) – I’m convinced it contributed to my acid reflux issues and my various other (now) chronic illnesses.

  79. TempAnon*

    I’ve been temping on and off for a little over a year, but I’m super excited to say that my part-time job (which I love, where I work with great people and doing important work and pays well) wants to make me full-time! After a very long time being ill it’ll be my first actual permanent role. Right now my temp work is 9-5 and my soon-full-time job is part-time (so I do it during lunch and after work/weekends).

    In my temp work, I’m contracted until [x] day next month. I’m working on a project and currently I’m expecting to finish a week earlier than I’m contracted for. I don’t know if my boss will have other smaller projects to fill that last week I’m here. Would it be reasonable to, when I’m sure I’ll be done early, suggest to my boss that I just wrap up temp work with the project? I’m staying part-time with my other job through July to give myself a little bit of a break and some time to set up working permanently from home, and that extra week of spin-up time would be super valuable to me.

    And if that’s reasonable to do, how do I frame it?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Part of what you might want to be careful of is if the manager is trying to be fair to you and not trying to short your contract and finding small projects to round it out to justify your being there after you’ve finished it.

      So I would go with something like: “It looks like I’m going to be done with [Project] by X. There’s not much time left on my contract after that and I’d be happy to end there unless there’s some other stuff you’d like me to take care of before I go.” That gives them the opening to either say “Yes, we’ve been counting on or could use help with [Y] while we’ve got you” or be happy to save a week’s worth of pay on your contract.

      1. TempAnon*

        Thanks for this framing! I expect that if I did need/want to stay for the full contract my manager would do exactly that. I definitely don’t want to just saunter away insensitively, but also I’m not in such financial straights that I need the pay from the temp job for a week–especially not with my part-time work that pays MUCH better!

        I’m genuinely not too happy in the temp work I’m doing, so I’m really hoping I can make us both happy with them saving a little money and me getting a little more breathing room before moving to my permanent position.

  80. Not a hard name to spell*

    People who spell my name wrong when replying to an email even though my name is right there in the email address: how? (My guess is they really just don’t care.)

    1. Amber Rose*

      I keep having people respond to my emails, where my name is in both my email and my giant company signature, by calling me Amanda.

      It’s like… wtf. That’s not a misspelling, it’s a completely different name.

    2. LGC*

      You should tell this to my coworker. (Who…I feel really bad for her because her name has a SUPER unfortunate double meaning now that it picked up when she was an adult, but I digress.) She’s worked with our client extensively for five years now. On occasion, they still bungle her (short, easy to spell) name to something similar that is not her name. (So, like, “Dana” instead of “Dara.”)

    3. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      My email has my first name in it, as does my signature, yet in my experience older men that I work with in person all the time can’t get it right.

      1. Kat in VA*

        My email has my first name/last name in it, but I go by my middle name and a shortened version of that (“Kat”).

        People I talk to on the regular, as in every damned day, will start emails (“Hi, XYZ, can you…”) using that first name even though they KNOW I don’t go by it. It’s kinda…baffling.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      I feel you! I’ve got two first names (well…3 if you include my middle name). I pretty much assume that I’m going to get called by the wrong name 50% of the time. Thankfully, I played a ton of sports growing up so I’m pretty immune to being called by my last name. Still…when someone reaches out to me and still screws it up…it’s like, “C’mon! Not. That. Difficult!”

    5. An Amazing Detective-Slash-Genius*

      Oh my gosh this happens to me at least once a week.

      The other thing I get is that my first name is sort of uncommon but my last name is a very common name of the opposite gender, and more than half the time, people I’ve not met respond to me and address it to my last name. As if I decided to go with lastname, firstname in my signature for some reason?

      1. Auntie Social*

        My first name gets many variations–Gayle, Gloria, Gay. Fortunately it’s also a noun so I say, “No, it’s Gala—like a party.” That works most of the time, but not always.

    6. lookatnames*

      I get this all the time and it bugs the heck out of me. It’s a pretty common name too, and a very common “alternative” spelling. Some people have poor attention to detail, and spelling my name wrong lets me know that’s who they are.

    7. Jemima Bond*

      Argh two people I work with have a similar issue. Slightly unusual names but written right there in emails and they still get mangled! One is an Asian name with a short version that doesn’t start with exactly the same letters and people Can’t Cope – say her name is Pavandeep shortened usually to Pavi; email address is pavandeep.singh@[email] but she has Pavi in her sig. So instead of just replying they write in Pavi.singh and are then all confused when the message bounces back. Or my other colleague Demetrius Doro who gets emails to Dear Doro because nobody can just read his email saying “kind regards, Demetrius”.
      The only solution we’ve come up with is extensive eyerolling, pointing it out to the offender in a polite way after deleting the sarcastic fantasy reply impugning their ability to read, and eating biscuits.

    8. GreyNerdShark*

      (late as usual)

      My name ends with one vowel, a consonant, and two vowels. THe first vowel is short, but most English speakers will see the double vowel after it and lengthen it. So say it is fenee. I pronouce it feh-nee but people who only see it written for some reason pronounce it feenee. So when they reply to email they write Feenee even though it is written Fenee right in front of them! Because in their heads they say Feenee and that’s what they write.

      Those who hear me say it spell it Fennee. Even if I spell it out over the phone

      I just can’t win!

    9. londonedit*

      Super late, but this happens to me far more often than it should! My name is fairly common and it does have some spelling variations, but it’s in my email address and my signature and I sign off every email using my name. Let’s say my name is Kate, for example. I can’t count the number of times I’ve emailed someone and they’ve replied ‘Hi Kathy’ or ‘Hi Katie’ or ‘Hi Kirsty’. I don’t know how they manage to get it wrong when the information is staring them in the face!

  81. Dionigi*

    There is an open position on my team. A person in another unit has applied. This person, Roxanne, used to be really great friends with someone on my team, Catherine. But they have had a falling out. Roxanne indicated to me that she no longer speaks with Catherine except about work ‘in order to maintain [her] safety.’ That is a strong statement. I can’t imagine wanting to be on a team with Catherine and also having those feelings. Both of them are long-timers so no one is going anywhere. Just curious to me…

    1. LCL*

      Don’t let Roxanne get away with vague drama filled statements. Tell her she must explain what she means and what the threats to her safety are. And then you have to see if you can verify what happened, if the threat is ongoing or what. Roxanne could be in danger, or she could be totally lying. But you can’t have her in your group and be responsible for her if there is a threat to her safety and she won’t tell you what it is.

      1. Dionigi*

        Roxanne mentioned talking to our on staff counselor so I had assumed it was emotional safety. This is a good reminder that I can’t make that assumption.

    2. Ghostwriter*

      Yeah, as someone who had a colleague and former friend go around telling people she was victimized because someone thought she was racist… it’s likely overstated drama. I wouldn’t worry about it unless you get specific details or corroboration.

  82. Anon for this*

    I just need to vent guys. My boss told me this week that we are moving offices in the Fall and after the move, we are laying off 2 employees. I am glad that he gave me the heads up that we are moving because it lines up perfectly with my lease and now I know not to renew but I am annoyed that he told me about the layoffs and the fact that he is not going to tell the soon to be laid-off employees about the move. There are less than 10 people in the company and we are leaving 2 people out of the loop. I know it is business but it feels icky. I wish he didn’t tell me.

    1. Interplanet Janet*

      You mean he told everyone who was going to get laid off in the fall …. except the people who are going to get laid off in the fall? That is spectacularly crappy, and not normal business practice AT ALL.

      I think I would tell them, and ask them not to say how they found out.

      1. Clementine*

        The problem I see here is that you can’t be sure the boss is not going to change his mind, or that he told Anon the truth. What if he has been telling every employee this, but switching the names around? This site had a case where a manager gave what she thought was accurate, but confidential, information about layoffs to her team, and they got worse jobs elsewhere, and then the layoffs didn’t happen.

    2. Kat in VA*

      The nature of my job (EA) means that sometimes I know someone is getting the axe before they know…sometimes WELL before said axe falls.

      It’s uncomfortable and feels unnatural to have to interact with the soon-to-be-axee regularly, schedule meetings and events you know they won’t be attending, and generally behave like nothing is different than the status quo.

      Fortunately over the years, I’ve managed to perfect a damn-near perfect know-nothing poker face, but inside it definitely still feels icky.

  83. Exhausted Trope*

    Yesterday, I was scheduled for a phone screen with a recruiter for a good position in my field. The interview time came and went without word from the recruiter. I waited for 30 minutes past the scheduled time and sent her an email hoping to reschedule. Crickets.
    Deep down I hate to think that this is how the company operates but I’m also trying not to jump to conclusions. I really hope nothing awful has happened to the recruiter. This has never happened to me before.

    1. Lisa Mark*

      I’m so sorry. I feel for you. I’ve known about a lot of firings before they happened. In most cases, the person deserved it, but in one case it was just he couldn’t perform the job anymore (due to a car accident and loss of motor skills). He was nervous, not knowing why he was being called into a meeting with HR and came to me for reassurance and emotional support before the meeting. My heart still breaks thinking of that moment.

  84. Pleeb*

    I just need to say this somewhere: I can’t find a job and I’m very sad and anxious. I went back to school and I have an internship but’s ending in 2 months (or 3 paychecks). I’m broke, I’ve applied to about 30 jobs and had about 8 call backs and some final interviews, but I keep getting rejected. It’s demoralizing and exhausting and it makes me question my sense of self. I feel like I’ve failed my family.
    Happy Friday sorry to be a bummer. I’ve just perpetually been anxious for 6 months, always on edge. I don’t know what to do.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      You are not alone in this! Job searching is so hard, but try to remember that it doesn’t affect your worth. You are not a failure!

      Keep pushing, keep trying and you’ll find something.
      Sending good vibes your way.

    2. Marion Q*

      I’m so sorry to hear that. I was in a similar situation until a couple months ago, so I know how hard it is. Internet hugs if you want them.

    3. AndersonDarling*

      My husband switched careers from hospitality to maintenance. He went to school and we figured he would find a good job fast. Nope. It.was.hard. He ended up at some really crappy places that hired anyone and treated them like garbage. But then he put in his time and moved into a slightly better job. Now he has enough experience to start getting calls from good employers.
      So my advice is to keep applying and use a cover letter to show some enthusiasm. Even a few lines in a cover letter can get the recruiter’s attention and land a phone screen. You never know which application will turn into something, so take your time with each one. Keep trying, keep trying, keep trying. One of them will come through, and if it isn’t the best job, but in a year and move on.
      Good luck!

      1. Pleeb*

        yeah, definitely feeling that way. it gets so exhausting to spend all this time tailoring all these cover letters for no response.

    4. ramonaflowers89*

      I’ve been unemployed for about six months since moving to a new city since my fiance got a job out here. I am quite lucky to have family support and my fiance makes enough to support both of us. But I feel very depressed and demoralized by not getting a job yet. I hate not making my own money. I hate feeling dependent on my fiance and I feel guilty shouldering all our costs of living onto him. I feel like an abject failure. I feel like I don’t deserve to do anything to make myself feel better – like going out to get lunch somewhere just to get out of the house and force myself to eat something (stress makes me lose my appetite) because that means spending money I don’t have.

      The job search has been a journey in awfulness – not hearing back from people for months, unrealistic job descriptions (I just saw an “associate” level job posting on LinkedIn that wanted 10+ years experience in the field), insultingly low salaries, etc. It just makes me feel like getting my MS in biology was a waste of time even though all throughout my life, “getting a STEM degree means you’ll always be able to get a job” was hammered into my head. I love biology regardless, so I don’t regret learning more about it, but it does feel like I was lied to by society and my academic mentors about how employable such a degree would make me. And then when I do find a job that fits my expertise, usually the pay is extremely low. I don’t think 50k is an unreasonable salary for my background, but all the jobs I see are for high 30s – low 40s. I don’t want to take a pay cut from my last job, which was mid-40s and not even in my field. I feel like I have reasonable expectations from employers, but at this point, it’s like, is expecting 50k, a normal amount of vacation days, and a 401k plan unreasonable? It feels like I am being gaslit.

      I’m trying to apply to jobs where I have experience and that I would be happy doing for at least a couple years, but those jobs seem so rare in this city. I don’t want to resume-bomb or apply for jobs I know I don’t want like sales or customer service (did a job that was 100% customer service for almost 3 years and I want something different). Looking for jobs just depresses me because it seems like I do not qualify for ANYTHING. Everyone always says job rejections aren’t about you, but at this point, they do feel about me. What else have I been rejected for over 25 jobs so far? I finally got two phone interviews after months of nothing, but obviously those are not a guarantee.

      So I feel you hard, Pleeb. I hope you find something soon.

  85. Hot Desking Question*

    People who hot desk, how awful is it really?

    I have what seems like a really fantastic job opportunity in all respects, except for the fact that the office has no assigned seating. Not having a dedicated space of my own to arrange as I please and having to lug all my normally deskbound items (coffee mug, pens, etc.) to work and back home every day seems just ghastly. Not to mention perpetually having other people’s food crumbs in “my” keyboard and gross ear film on the phone.

    Anyone want to reassure me that it’s not complete misery? Just buy some stock in Lysol and let go of attachment to personal items and it’s not so bad?

    1. PharmaCat*

      It’s not that bad. Most people have a preferred seat, so really it’s just like before – we all sit in the same configuration every day. There are no personal effects displayed anymore, but I prefer that. We had some people who went overboard before and it was annoying. (As in an entire Christmas village display on top of the shared file cabinets) I would like more storage space for my tech docs.

    2. Exhausted Trope*

      I’ve done it and I got used to it pretty quickly. The Lysol is a good idea. I carried wipes to sanitize my phone and keyboard in a big tote along with the rest of my supplies.

    3. Scarlett*

      See if the company can set aside just a small bit of space for each person to keep some personal belongings. That made a world of difference to me when I had to hot desk. I still didn’t love it, but at least I felt a little more at ease knowing that my reference books, special pens (office supply addict), etc. had a place to live so that I didn’t have to be a turtle carrying everything for work to-and-from on a daily basis.

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’ve never had a hot desk work environment within a single office, but I have had several jobs where I either traveled between different sites throughout the day (so basically setting up my stuff at a desk, working for a few hours, then packing it up and driving somewhere else to work a few hours, then maybe to a third location for another few) or where I worked at different sites on different days.

      Finding a bag that worked well to keep my stuff organized was key for me. I needed a bag that could pretty much replace the function of desk drawers, with slots for pens and places to keep various papers and electronic things organized. I ended up going with a really garish backpack targeted at schoolkids, partially so it would be more obvious which bag was mine but mostly because it had lots of different compartments so I could have a place for the electronic bits (assorted cords, mouse and 10 key pad for the laptop, charging cables, headphones, etc.) and a different place for the pens/highlighters/sticky notes/tape/scissors/type things and a place for a water bottle or travel coffee mug on the outside. I basically had “desk drawers” in the form of a backpack that I could tuck under whatever table I was working at.

  86. Mel*

    I have a question for for development/advancement people who have moved from fundraising to programming. How did you do it?

    Also, if any foundation program officers out there want to share their career paths, I’d appreciate it!

  87. New hire*

    So….I’m almost 3 months in and I’m slowly coming to the realization that my boss is not ideal. Our team of 7 is now down to 2 (me and my boss) which means that since I started, 4 people have left. At least two of them are mainly because of my boss (the others I could speculate but I don’t know for sure). My boss is not very open to feedback and tends to take things personally, and any time we do have a conversation things are brushed to the side (I tend to agree during the conversation and then afterward say “…what the heck??”). I was hired to be a second in command person on this team but my boss assigns me PowerPoint projects and doesn’t involve me in anything strategic. Meanwhile my boss’s boss has pulled me aside, talked about goals, asked about planning and told me about what she wants me to be doing in the future. When I told her my boss and I don’t have 1:1s (bc my boss won’t schedule them, even though I asked) she said I should start having them with her. So my question is- do I raise the issue of my boss with her? We’re starting to hire for some of the vacancies on our team and I know for a fact that this team will have horrendous turnover until something happens. I don’t know if anyone has been honest about my boss’s issues. Part of me just wants to know if they know, because if they do and they’re letting this happen then I know I can’t stay much longer. But is proving that people didn’t like being managed by my boss, my boss’s weird passive aggressive text messages, and the fact that my boss is not helping me do the job I was hired to do enough?

    1. Llellayena*

      Definitely be honest about your boss. Start with the business impact (this is why we lost everyone and why we’re likely to have high turnover in whoever is hired). Then add the just you stuff: boss only gives me PowerPoint work instead of what I understood my job intended to be, boss refuses to provide feedback or discuss my role. No personality stuff though, after the rest of the litany that would derail the convo.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I think you will have a natural opening. The fact that your grandboss is asking to have regular 1:1’s with you is, to me, a sign that she knows something’s up. At least at my company, it’s not common to have regular 1:1’s with senior leadership that aren’t about a specific agenda, like a special project or something and not just general career/performance reviewing.

      I would be prepared for her to ask probing questions about the boss in order to get a better feel for how (badly) the boss is doing. I’m sure she hasn’t missed the fact that most of the team has bailed in a very short period of time and there may have been more churn before you joined. What she might not have info on is your boss’s specific role in that turnover.

  88. Washi*

    I’m leaving my job in one week! In the past I’ve always given 2 weeks notice and always thought it would be nice if I could give my employer more (I work in nonprofits.) Since I’m leaving for grad school, I gave almost 2 months notice and….I did not enjoy it. It just felt like the whole thing was dragging out, I have the same conversations with my coworkers over and over about when I’m leaving, I got pulled into a lot of “ooh, before you go, can you do this one last thing for us?” type of projects so my workload is higher, and my motivation is shot.

    Anyone else have this experience with longer notice periods?

    1. GreyNerdShark*

      One of my co-workers gave 3 months notice. That’s cos we were all working on a new and massive automation system and he wanted to train the new outsourcers on it before he left.

      That management didn’t actually manage to finalise the oursourcing agreement until 2 weeks before his end date was considered a pretty inevitable failure by him and the rest of us.

      He managed to keep his motivation up because the thing was more or less his baby and he got to do all the fun stuff.

  89. Environmental Compliance*

    Good news on new(ish) my direct report (very quick summary – no one wanted to manage them. They got handed to me. We had a Come to Jesus talk. They were less than pleased. Showed up 20-60 minutes late back to back days after we had a discussion about timeliness. Had a write up. They complained to HR, who told them that being on time to work was a very basic expectation of many positions. Here we are.).

    They have been on time every day (believe me, new and different). We’ve gone through an update to the reporting they need to do (in which I asked them to give me some points that were causing them hiccups or troubles, and what they would want to see, and did integrate some of those), and I think they’ve gotten more comfortable with what the expectations are vs. their perceived constraints. Their reporting quality has gone up appreciably, and they’ve (slowly) gotten more communicative. They still do the thing of finding 34982339 tiny blips of issues when I point out an issue that needs to be fixed (for example – didn’t date a report, which is required for our overall compliance reporting, think something like chain of custody, and after I reminded them hey, please put dates on all reports going forward, I got an email back of a very long list of rather random complaints that we both know are being addressed already, such as a minor equipment cosmetic repair). But the next report I received had the date. They’ve also pointed out very legitimate problems in the process that I have done my damndest to push through to fix, and have kept them in the loop about, which seems to be new and different for them, and they seem pretty happy about.

    I think really what it’s going to come down to is them relearning how to have the authority & confidence in their position, and caring about work quality – because now someone is actually looking & taking an interest. So far there’s been some larger baby steps towards taking ownership of their work, and I’m cautiously impressed.

    On a separate note, one of the management team that I’m on (we are upper management for the facility) was fired! Our safety manager is of Middle Eastern descent, and one of the other managers decided to call them Ali Baba followed by the (I don’t know how else to describe it, I’m sorry if it comes off as offensive!!) stereotypical Achmed the Dead Terrorist type screech thing. There’s been a couple of us who have directly told this person to knock it the hell off – and this time they did it over the phone, but our supervisor was next to the receiving person on the phone, and three of us made a(nother) complaint right after it. I don’t think I’ve ever seen our manager’s eyebrows go that high that fast. But it did give me a lot of respect towards a manager I already respect highly, as they immediately shut the situation down, collected more information, called in to HR, and because the offending manager was already on a lot of behavioral/related issues PIP (apparently), they were fired. And our manager came and talked to all of us 1:1 to tell us if *anyone* was making any comments like that whether it’s race or gender or anything, they want to know because it will. not. be. tolerated.

    1. Scarlet*

      OMG. I can only imagine that guy thinking the Ali Baba comment was hilarious. Glad your HR team took it seriously and canned him.

      For the yell, I think you’re talking about a Ululation, right?

  90. super extra anon for this*

    I wrote in the thread last week about how I was upset about my colleagues not socializing with me as they used to and how I had the impression I was the office jerk. I want to thank you all for your kind words (I cried a little at how kind you were, thank you!!), and I want to clear some things up/update you.

    I said the realization came to me when talking with my mom, and it was because I was giving her advice on how to deal with her own annoying colleague (minimizing contact, listening briefly and then saying she has work to do) and it occurred to me that those were things my colleagues are doing to me. Hence, I’m the annoying coworker. Also yes, you’re all right, my social contacts outside of work are few and mostly online due to my caretaking responsibilities for my parents and due to a long commute. I…simply don’t have time for life things.

    One thing that came up is that I may be interpreting individual actions as group actions, but if they act like this in a group (going for lunch, strolls, etc together, gathering in one office and laughing) it’s sort of hard not to take it at least a little personal.

    My manager is a terrible option to go to with this. She’s very nice, but she has micromanaging tendencies, and I finally got her to back off enough that I have some breathing space and don’t need to cc her on every email I write anymore. I don’t want her to go back to that. And besides, my workplace doesn’t have the best boundaries where people’s personal life is concerned and my manager and my grandmanager both are not very good at not asking about personal things, and I need those boundaries in place for sanity reasons.

    I’ve tried watching myself and my colleagues this past week, this seems to be a double thing. For one yes, maybe I’m sometimes a bit much, there’s a reason I don’t have a Facebook, plus I have different interests than the rest of them so when I talk about things that I like they don’t care, and while I listen to what they talk about well, it doesn’t jive with me. I don’t fit in well, I can’t talk about my husband/bf/kids, I don’t want to talk about my parents because they fill the other half of my day and work is my non-duty time… All of which is true. And not fitting in is pretty annoying, but in a work setting I still expected…at least some effort to not be outright exclusionary.

    But…. The exclusion of my person seems to be mostly started by one colleague and I so much did not expect that. I kept my head down this past week, because I didn’t want to make myself even more upset or start crying at work which would be embarrassing over such a matter. But all of this seems to be centered around one colleague. Ironically, I will be the one taking her duties while she will be out of the office the next few weeks. It’s hard to describe because the things are so small but add up, but there was one incident this week that was a little eye opening. Unfortunately, this incident also might have been her screwing up something I will need to fix as it was work related, but I didn’t feel like getting into a huge discussion at the time that I could only lose.

    I will continue to keep my head down, and I have a bunch of deadlines looming. I can’t change jobs right now because this one leaves me a lot of flexibility regarding my parents with wfh options on bad days and there’s not a lot of work opportunities for me in this region, and I know that the one other place that would be closer does not allow wfh ever. I can revisit this when my sister will be back in the country, but her education now has priority. Thank you all for reading my woes.

    1. Duchess Honeybadger*

      Wowza, friend. You are carrying all the things. You are holding up half the world, but who’s holding you up? Please consider seeing a therapist. It doesn’t mean that anything is wrong with you, just that you need some help. Consider an online therapy option, like Talk Space. (My grief counselor recommended it to me.) Consider options for respite care, when someone else steps in to take care of your parents while you do something for you. It may seem like an unreasonable expense, but the pace you’re keeping isn’t sustainable for you, and who will take care of them if you crash. And once you start taking care of you, you might be amazed by how the other stuff (like office relationships) clear up. Good luck, and take care.

    2. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      It can be really painful to feel the odd one out, even if it’s not deliberate. Small things really do add up, as you said. Based on what you’re describing, I don’t get the feeling that you’re “annoying” in the sense of that being some…inherent attribute or something; being in an environment where you don’t mesh well socially can mess with confidence even when it’s unwarranted. It sounds to me like your coworkers are in different life stages and have different interests, and maybe different personalities than you, so conversation might not be as smooth–that’s not a “you” problem, it’s just an unideal situation; and it sounds like there might be one person who *is* a problem, maybe they have their own issues that are getting taken out on you.
      Good luck, and I really hope you can get support–you’ve got a lot on your plate.

    3. EssieBee*

      It could just be the one colleague, you know.

      My very good friend can be extremely awkward sometimes too. She gets nervous and makes jokes that are way over everyone’s head (very academia), she tells long stories in an effort to contribute to the conversation, and she doesn’t always pick up on the fact that people are backing away.

      But she’s my awkward friend and I love her.

      Work is work, and your colleagues aren’t always your friend.

    4. Anne (with an “e”)*

      Virtual hugs. You don’t sound annoying at all. You also do not sound like the office jerk. You sound like a very self-aware, interesting person who doesn’t exactly jive with the others in the office.

      It’s so okay not to be friends with people at work. They are your colleagues, not your friends. You all just need to be professional with each other and that’s completely alright. It’s okay, normal, and very common not to be friends with coworkers.

    5. Business Librarian*

      I agree with Duchess Honeybadger, you need some support. I understand the idea that you need to separate the idea of friends with the idea of coworkers, but your home life means the opportunity to find and develop more friends is very limited. Even if you had a whole crew, it’s very demoralizing to be in a space where you feel so excluded.
      If the person who doesn’t gel with you is out, then you might be able to make a few inroads with the others. If they’ve worked with that person a long time, they might be following her lead even if they don’t agree with her. They could just be taking the path of least resistance in not inviting you to lunch because she actively doesn’t want to. As far as not being able to join in with the conversations about husband/children, asking them questions and remembering names and details can also work. “Jane, how did Rebecca’s soccer game go?” Another thing I’ve had work for me is to ask the question, get the answer, respond,”Oh, that’s too bad.” “That’s great! I bet you’re proud!” and then keep moving. Try to have very small conversations. That way you’ll get a little lift of positive contact and the likelihood of it going south goes down. A million years ago I worked with someone who seemed to loathe me on sight and she was a longtime employee. I just kept saying, “God, the traffic today!” etc and barely paused and after a while, the ice thawed. We were never going to be best buddies, but it was like she came to feel I wasn’t going to move in on her space.

      One of the only benefits of the internet is that you can be in a community that’s not tied to your physical space. You’ve got one here! We all want you to be able to flourish even though you are “holding up half the sky.” I’m sending you all the warm vibes I can!

  91. Annie Edison*

    How do you keep positive/spread positivity when team morale is decreasing badly?

    For background: I work in the public sector on a very hardworking team.

    Lately some political changes have made some big differences in my workplace. For one, the amount of work coming through my department skyrocketed and we have no resources to keep up. We just get further and further behind every day.

    Secondly, the current government has put a lot of restrictions on us. I won’t get into a big political spiel here, but basically the public service is described as “greedy leeches” and public anger is mounting. All hiring and wages are indefinitely frozen, and there are rumors of big layoffs coming.

    So there is an ever increasing amount of late work on my desk and people hate us. My boss is notoriously uncommunicative so nobody knows what is going on.

    My team is working hard to try and get ahead, but I think it’s safe to say that most of us are feeling burnt out and a few people have been vocally unhappy, and another few have already quit. I try to keep positive and tell myself that I can only do my best but I feel guilty for even getting up to grab coffee. People have been bringing in doughnuts to make us feel better but at this point they just make me bloated and grumpy and aren’t really helping anything.

    None of this is going to get solved any time soon and I am weighing out my options of what to do next. What can I do to keep positive?? And help my coworkers keep positive??

    1. CatCat*

      I don’t know that you can with respect to others. That’s extra labor on top of already being buried.

      When I was very demoralized at ex-job, I focused on what was my capacity to do, stopped caring about the work and just focused on getting done what I could, and hardcore job searched while regularly reminding myself, “I am planning my escape and my situation is only temporary.” That helped me slog through. Sorry you’re going through this.

      1. Annie Edison*

        You’re right. I was just hoping that maybe there was something I could do to help the atmosphere a little bit.

        That’s basically where I’m at right now. The problem is that I love and care about my job too much and I don’t want to leave!!! But at the very least I have to be prepared for whatever happens if I do get laid off.

        1. Hazy Days*

          Can you focus on the value and importance of your work to the public? Describe your work to each other in the way you wish the politicians would, talk about the impact you’re having, and so on.

  92. Reference problem*

    I have a question I would like to ask. How do you answer the reference question when you have ever only had one boss and they are not in a position to be a reference?

    I have only ever had one job and one boss. I worked at the company for seven years. First as a receptionist whose only duties were to answer the phone and tell people what floor to go to. I didn’t even use email at that job. Next I was an admin assistant for the manager of a division. When the manager of that division (“Elizabeth”) got a promotion I became her executive assistant. She has been my boss the entire time I have worked here. No one else has controlled or directed my work and 90% of my dealings were with her. Outside of her people would know me for answering the phone (and directing people when I was a receptionist).

    Elizabeth has been implicated in multiple sexual harassment lawsuits, and accusations go back to before her time with the company. Some of the lawsuits have been settled and others are still going on. She also has to go to criminal court for one of the people who is suing her.

    She was fired. The department she managed will be shut down and the work outsouced to an outside company because my company is in major damage control mode. All of us were fired. I don’t have an education beyond high school like everyone else here. This is the only job I’ve had.

    The company will confirm employment but beyond Elizabeth I have no one to give a reference. No one else knows my work or has dealt with me well enough to know. The other managers and execs don’t know my name. After today I’m laid off and once my last pay check runs out I will be screwed. Unemployment is not enough for me to survive one. I don’t have any certifications or special kills like the others who are being laid off. So how should I answer the reference question when my only boss is a known serial harasser and assaulter? Thank you to anyone who responds.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Your situation is definitely a load of suck with more suck on top .I don’t have any brilliant ideas, but I definitely feel your pain! Sorry you’re going through this.

    2. Anon for this*

      Try going to a temp agency. You can build up some references there and also perhaps go temp-to-perm. Good luck!

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Your best bet might be to go through a temp agency – usually they don’t ask too much about references.

    4. Roja*

      Any chance of a high school teacher or a volunteer coordinator being a reference for you? You said this was your only job, but I’m assuming that’s meaning official job–have you ever babysat, helped out at the church nursery, mowed lawns, or anything like that, even if only briefly in high school? Some jobs, especially less formal ones, may take personal references so you could try something like that. If you have a network of friends, neighbors, and family who know the situation (or fellow ex-employees, because I bet you’re not the only one in some serious difficulty following the company’s shenanigans), make sure *everyone* knows you’re looking for a job. If it’s a personal connection rather than an anonymous computer application, it’s going to be a lot easier to explain the situation and offer alternate, non-work references.

      I’m so sorry. I can’t imagine how stressful this must be.

    5. Release the Kraken*

      I’m in a similar boat (two jobs in my case but I can’t use anyone from my current job because the boss has been known to fire people for job searching and my first job ended 14 years ago) and was so concerned about this. I lined up some great personal references like people from the book club I run who can attest to my communication and organization skills. I wound up being offered a job and they only asked for personal references! I was so relieved even though I was ready to tell them all about my unique situation. So there is a possibility that you’ll luck into a job like that or at least will have a chance to explain your situation.

      I also think the suggestion to build references through working with a temp agency is a great one. It’s what I was considering before I got lucky. Don’t let it stop you from job searching. You’ll find something. Good luck!

  93. Emblematic Escarole*

    Emblematic escarole

    Clash of the Directors S1.E7

    Baby Girl has arrived safely, and on time. Events Manager (EM) shared the good news, via text,
    to two staff members who then didn’t share it with the rest of the office. No biggie – otherwise EM would have shared it with everyone. Regardless, Development Director (DD) asked yesterday, if the baby/mom were ok. Programs Director (PD) said, “Yes, I received a text last week.” DD was a bit perplexed but was so consumed with something else she moved on saying she was happy everyone was ok.

    This week Executive Director (ED) and DD were preparing for the Board retreat. Needless to say, stress was high as
    were the voices. The DD loves spreadshseets and sent a lot of the to the PD who isn’t as keen on them, but tried very hard to complete them for the DD. Apparently, it didn’t meet DD’s expectations. So the DD and ED went to the PD to ask the PD for more information, which would have taken 10 minutes had the DD been clearer about what she needed. While in the PD’s office the DD began to get heated w/ the PD, raising her voice. The ED stepped in to de-escalate but at that point the PD was done with it all.

    The PD didn’t receive an invite to the retreat, although she knew it was happening, thus assumed
    she was attending. So when she didn’t receive any prep documents for her program committee work, she asked. The ED was surprised she missed sending PD an invite (accident or deliberate- so hard to say, as that’s not how she’s proven herself to be.. exactly) but the ED can be a bit flighty.

    So the PD, with retreat documents in hands, reads them over. Mind you – these documents (goals, budget, costs, etc) were not written by or had input from the PD.. at all. They were developed by the ED and DD. So that tells you
    where the PD feels she stands, in all of this. The PD was stopped in her tracks when she read ‘School Districts’ goal re: how many programs they want us to implement. The goals were wayyy beyond our capacity, and the question is, “Is this what the ED and DD want to do or is this simply a reference for the Board when planning the next year?”

    There was a moment, for me, that ‘Crap now that the EM, things are rolling down hill to me,’ as the DD sent a series
    of ‘Where is this document?’, ‘What did you do with this document?’ emails. Each one I responded to in a succint and clear manner with a ‘You’re welcome’ at the end, to remind her that we’re all humans and treat another as such.

    So the PD is not attending the national conference, which she has for the past years, because there isn’t a budget for it. So only the ED and DD are attending (sure they’re new, we get it but the PD would be learning about all the new programs which are our bread and butter.) The PD recently found out that the ED will be attending a year long ‘city leadership’ class which requires weekly meeting, homework and a capstone project and costs $2800!! That’s close to what it would cost to send the PD to the national conference. So the PD is a bit miffed…..

    So the PD only has to sign a contract and she’ll be leaving by 1 August, earlier than expected because her new boss
    wants her to attend orientation, despite her having worked for the company before. Complicate things more, the ED and DD will be out of office, 2 weeks each, over the next 6 weeks. So we hope that the PD signs the contract and notifies the ED soon. The PD wants to have the opportunity to hire and train the next person. which leads to the next issue….

    What kind of hires will they make? Will they give up a PD for two progam people? If they do that the organization will have three program people and no Director. Who will be the Director – the DD? The PD feels abosolute that is how the ED will go. But then who will fundraise if the DD manages programs, events, and fundraising? Answers to come soon.

    1. WellRed*

      If the PD was planning on leaving soon anyway, doesn’t it make sense that they wouldn’t send her on the retreat? I am side-eyeing the leadership class, however. I also agree that they won’t hire a new PD.

      1. Emblematic Escarole*

        The ED & DD don’t know the PD is leaving; the PD doesn’t want to say anything until the contract is signed.

        The PD should go to the board retreat, regardless if she’s leaving, because she’s the only one that knows anything about the programs; the ED and DD have not attempted to learn about the programs especially learning from the PD.

        I’m a bit nervous that you also believe they’re not going to hire a PD. The hope is that whomever they hire has education and school experience so they can interact with the school districts; a unique skill that will lessen the learning curve.

        If they decide not to hire PD who will advocate for programs? I’ve never been in a nonprofit in which there wasn’t a programs manager or director responsible for that function. And surely I’ve never seen a DD in charge of programs. Who will fundraise? The current PD thinks that the DD doesn’t want to fundraise, but wants to be a business operations person.

        If that happens I’m going to have to move on.

  94. Anony Mouse*

    Anon for reasons..so a top 100 ranking came out. My company was consistently on it (on the latter 90s end) but was not listed in the top 100 this year. Should I be worried the company’s doomed?

    Legit asking bc I worked at a dying company; 5 months after I left it dissolved entirely.

    The only reason I can think of re: lower numbers is that the rank is by $$$. Some companies on the higher ranks let more people go for no reason except to pad their wallet (I worked alongside a couple). My company chose to keep all staff on board and paid despite some tough economic times, but said it was well worth this investment.

    1. Tableau Wizard*

      before putting too much weight into this ranking, I’d try to look closely at the methodology used. Some rankings are really really subjective and don’t really indicate much about the conclusions you’re trying to draw.

      Also, falling a few points on the ranking (90s to off the list isn’t too far) wouldn’t be enough of a reason for me to get my feathers ruffled… Is there something more going on there?

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      The “n” really really matters here. Top 100 out of 120? Possible cause for concern. Top 100 out of 5000? Wouldn’t even bat an eye.

      Storytime: Spouse’s job is consistently is ranked either best in the nation or second best in the nation, and basically flipflops with OtherAlsoGreatOrg for the top spot.

      More than once, they’ve hung banners aplenty proclaiming “#1 in the nation”, only to tear them down the next year “oh it’s just a silly popularity contest”

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      Yeah, a lot of those lists are pay to play even. It really depends on the list, how a company gets on it, what it actually says about the companies on it, etc. And a slide of a few points isn’t really indicative of anything to be alarmed about.

    4. Grace Less*

      Also, usually someone at your company has to submit or verify the data. It’s possible a ball got dropped, especially if they had new staff or shifted responsibilities.

  95. HollyTree*

    Anyone got any advice for job hunting after your business fails?

    I’m looking into going into retail or temp office work as I have no training/qualifications for anything else. I also have no work history (apart from an apprenticeship I didn’t complete due to moving away, and an office job I didn’t pass probation for, which was cool because it was a terrible place. But yeah, no reference)

    So yeah, any ideas of what to put on my CV? How to phrase a cover letter? Will people ask me why I want a ‘proper job’? (And since the answer is ‘money, cause I have none’ what do I actually say?)

    I’m in the UK if that helps.

    I’m really super grateful for any advice that anyone can offer me, thanks :)

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      “When I ran my own business, it taught me that I enjoy llama grooming but I don’t enjoy marketing myself as a llama groomer, taking care of accounts receivable and payable, and all the rest of it. So I’m looking forward to doing one job and doing it well, instead trying to run the whole place on my own.”

    2. Hazy Days*

      I think Rusty’s phrasing is good. You could also say things like

      “At that time in my life I appreciated the flexibility of running my own business, but I always missed the sense of working as part of a team, and I want to get back to being part of much larger projects than I had capacity for as a sole operator.”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This happens frequently, I’ve had a lot of former business owners apply for jobs.

      You have a job to list, it’s your Business Name, Owner-Operator DATE-DATE. So you don’t need to act like you don’t have a lot of experience. You worked with clients, did billing [assuming you didn’t have someone else do it] and did other business things in between of course to keep the company running.

      Then you say you’re looking for stability and a regular schedule, since running your own business tends to mean you’re on 24/7 all week long. Don’t focus on the fact that your business “failed”, most do, that’s just the fact of life in business.

      I have interviewed a few “failed” business owners, never hired any of them because they weren’t a fit but they certainly get interviews nonetheless.

      Just lie about why you want to work there. “I like people and assisting others/providing a service to people, so I find myself a great fit in customer service. I’m a creative person and really enjoy the design process, so I want to be able to focus just on design work.” etc.

  96. Need boss advice!*

    This week I learned that my boss misrepresented an internal opportunity as a demotion so I wouldn’t take it.

    A little background (details changed for privacy): Our office recently went through a restructure and around that time my boss approached me about an opening on another team that had been vacant for a while. The exact way he phrased it to me was, “do you want to do X’s job in addition to your own at a lower title”. No, no I did not want that (does ANYONE want that?), and he said he would fight to prevent that from happening and that he didn’t want them to dump extra work on me. I really appreciated it at the time.

    Fast forward to this week, I was catching up with a colleague who I haven’t talked to in a while, who was recently promoted. She asked why I’d turned down a great opportunity that was basically tailored to my skillset, and if I wasn’t interested in that, how WOULD I be interested in advancing? Apparently, after she’d gotten promoted, she’d spoken to the manager of the other team about my skill set, and talked with him about changing the vacant role to a senior level (lateral move for me) that would leverage my strengths and recruiting me over. She was really surprised I’d turned it down and genuinely wanted to know why.

    We had a long conversation about how the role was represented to me vs. what she had spoken about with the manager. She said she hadn’t been there when that manager spoke to my boss about the role that he had in mind for me, but she didn’t think it was “do two jobs at a lower title”. I’m super frustrated about having turned down what could have been a great opportunity, and possibly harmed my reputation with the other manager in the process.

    On top of this, I’ve been having a hard time communicating with my boss in general lately. He tasks me with large projects that we don’t have the resources for, and then gets really combative/argumentative when I present to him data about what’s needed to accomplish these projects, telling me how my revenue projection is at a loss next year (which is true, but also was expected with a longtime project ending, which is why I have been hunting for new business leads). I don’t have a clear understanding of what he expects from me when he gives me projects he knows we can’t financially support – it’s like I’m being set up to fail.

    We’ve always had a good relationship personally (though I’ve struggled with him as a boss) and I’m not sure what to do. He reports directly to our CEO (who I don’t really know and who works offsite) and I am his only report. I don’t have a team, and while the rest of our organization reports to a senior manager who reports to the CEO, I am outside of that structure. Is it ok for me to talk to the other senior manager about what’s going on? We have HR, but in our organization that is definitely a nuclear option.

      1. Need boss advice!*

        Oh that’s one thing I forgot to mention – after I turned it down they hired someone else into a junior version of the role, so there isn’t an opening anymore.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I would still talk to the other manager again in the off chance that the new hire doesn’t work out or they decide to create another role similar to the one they were going to interview you for. It’s alarming that your boss would do this to you, so you need to make as many internal allies as you can so you can move on from your current position. Any manager that would purposely sabotage their direct report is a manager that can’t be trusted and should be left.

    2. anonymoushiker*

      You could talk to the hiring manager about the role that had been represented to you just to get more info and if it’s different from how it was presented to you, just let them know. If there are other opportunities, you might want to talk directly to the hiring manager if your boss is this untrustworthy.

    3. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would talk to the other senior manager. Not in a complaining way, but just a “I think there’s been a misunderstanding, and I wanted to speak to you directly to clear it up. My manager previously asked me about doing a position he described as X, but Colleague mentioned a position that was more Y. Were those the same position and something changed? Or did a new position become available and I missed it?” That way the other manager knows what happened, but you’re also not directly accusing your own manager of deceit.

      1. The Ginger Ginger*

        You could also say something like “now understanding what the position actually was, I’m disappointed to have missed the opportunity. If something similar were to ever open in the future, I hope you’ll think of me.”

        1. Reba*

          Yes, I think it’s worth trying to repair this with the other manager. And, since your current manager no longer seems trustworthy, it wouldn’t hurt to get more people’s perspectives around the company in general.

  97. Cobra question*

    I left my job and HR said that COBRA info will be sent through their COBRA provider. It’s been 2 weeks- should I email someone? I still don’t have any info. They said I would be receiving info “in a few weeks.”

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It usually does take a few weeks. I got mine about 4-5 weeks later. But if you do have a medical emergency, you can retroactively purchase cobra to cover your emergency…that’s why employers don’t rush to send it to you. I had a break between jobs and I purchased a temp “catastrophic” coverage for 2 months and it was only $600 for myself and my spouse. Cobra is SO EXPENSIVE, and we didn’t have any urgent doctors appointments so we went the temp insurance route.

    2. Murphy*

      I recently left my job and I received the COBRA info about two weeks after my last day. When does your current coverage expire? That would probably affect when I would call/email to ask about it.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        That’s a good question. When I left my last job, I assumed that my insurance ended that day but it actually continued until the end of the month.

      1. ATX Language Learner*

        Oops, it sent and I didn’t type the rest :) No, I don’t think it’s a cause for concern yet. Anytime I’ve left a position, it’s been a few weeks before I get any documentation like that. If you’re worried, you should email HR and ask when you can be expecting it.

    4. Natalie*

      No, between the time they have to notify their benefits administrator, the time the benefits administrator has to send notice, and mailing time, you could easily receive the information in 6-7 weeks before it would be officially late. And then you have 2 months to decide whether or not you want the coverage.

      If you opt for COBRA it will be retroactive to the day your insurance expires, if you’re concerned about not being covered right now. If something expensive happens you’ll be fine, insurance wise at least.

  98. Jamie*

    Due to a restructure I was out of work for several months last year and it hit me pretty hard in my self-confidence.

    I was in talks for Job A for several months as it had a long timeline (they were creating a new position and some other legit reasons) but when offered Job B through a recruiter I took it because I needed a job.

    I didn’t apply for Job A – they contacted me as they knew me by reputation via a professional association and thought my weird skill set might be a good fit for their team but as there was no actual position at that time who knew if it would ever become anything more than networking.

    I was at Job B for a couple of months and left when Job A offered me a position. Slightly more money, vastly more interesting work, seemed to have more of a future so I took it. Job B tried to get me to stay, but I rejected the counter offer. The parting was on good terms, fwiw.

    I’ve been at Job A now for a few months. I’m relatively happy. It’s not exactly what was promised and I’m still a little stung by being low balled on salary, but it wasn’t a bait and switch. But I do like it here and per feedback from my boss they are pleased with my performance.

    I got a call yesterday from the recruiter who had gotten me Job B. She wanted to know if I was happy in new job as she had an opportunity that she thought would be a good fit for me. I spoke with her about it and it sounds right up my alley…I have kind of a niche skill set within my field so not everything is as good a fit as this appears on paper.

    When I heard the salary range I thought it was worth a conversation. I was so grateful to get Job B after being out of work for months, but it was considerably less than I had been making and the range for this new opportunity would put me back to (or just over) what I was earning before.

    I explained to the recruiter my trepidation due to looking like a recent job hopper but she was enthusiastic for me to apply anyway.

    She told them about me yesterday and they’ve already emailed her this morning asking when they’ll get my resume. I have to update it on lunch and send it so won’t be until this afternoon.

    Am I crazy to even consider interviewing should they offer one? I’m not ashamed of being motivated in large part by money and I can’t think of a reason why I wouldn’t explore the possibility. But the other part of my brain is saying after being out of work for months last year and finally in a job I like to not rock the boat and be happy with the status quo.

    Where was all this interest in me professionally when I was out of work?

    1. anonymoushiker*

      I honestly think it would be too much job hopping but it might be worth at least talking to the employer-but maybe being clear that you’re not likely to take the role now but maybe in the future?

      1. J*

        That’s a good way to look at it. I was very upfront about being happy and not currently looking, but interested in having a conversation.

    2. Zillah*

      You don’t lose anything from doing the interview if you’re offered it. The status quo/rock the boat concerns are super valid and worth consideration, but I think that consideration should enter the equation when you have a job offer to weigh it against, not before you apply.

      1. Zillah*

        Also, re: job hopping – you don’t have to include both Job B on your resume. You weren’t there for that long, and especially since you weren’t working before that, it won’t necessarily stand out as much to have that gap look a little longer.

        The concerns about job hunting make sense, but again, I think it makes more sense to weigh them against an offer – and for all you know, the process will take eight months.

        1. J*

          I thought about that, but as this recruiter is the one who got me Job B and got such good feedback from my then boss about how happy they were with my work, as well as having me help interview my replacement, that job is how she can personally vouch for me.

          But as I’m kind of looking at this as a possible networking opportunity at best (as I’ve been upfront about being happy where I am and not looking to leave unless it was some extraordinary situation) I could defer to her. In the future though I will leave that one off my resume, I never added it to my LinkedIn profile for the same reason.

  99. On a pedestal and feeling weird about it*

    TL;DR: Is there anything you can do as the “boss’s favorite” to offset the impact to the rest of your peers?

    I’m universally understood to be the boss’s favorite – I’m always the first choice for her high priority tasks, she treats me with more flexibility than some other members of the team. It’s obvious, undeniable, and a bit of a joke among the team.
    Some of this special treatment is possibly warranted – I’ve proven to produce higher quality work faster than the other team members, she and I have clicked really fast, etc. Some of it isn’t – she’s clearly biased against my male counterpart, for both being a man and for having a different style than her.

    I do my best not to take advantage of my favorite status and to advocate for the good of the group when my boss needs to be pushed back on. We all acknowledge that my ideas are received better than those of my peers, so I sometimes volunteer to bring something difficult up because it won’t cost me as much political capital with her.

    Is there anything more I can or should do to help even the playing field? or to be aware of my own behavior to not make my coworkers uncomfortable?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Q: Do you specifically push back on him having a different style than she does and that being fine?

      Other than that, I think the best thing you can do – since it’s a bit of a joke – is to ask them if there’s anything they’d like you to do about it. And then carrying through on that as best you can.

      I’ve been on both sides of that position and the main part of it was having the person know they were the favorite but that it didn’t mean the other person was bad or wrong and not “lording it” as it were over others. When I was on the other side, I also never wanted someone to have to significantly damage themselves to try and help me, when it wasn’t there fault. When I was on your side, I tried to make a point of giving credit to others as much as possible and share the responsibility for whatever “good” was being seen.

      I’m thinking all the way back to summer camp here, but we pulled a group prank that I was absolutely part of – but was the only one who managed not to get caught (in part because I had a goody-goody rep and flew all the way under the radar). I felt bad that the rest of my bunk had extra KP and tried to take part. I wasn’t allowed to because it was supposed to be a penalty and I was theoretically innocent. I could have come clean, but my bunkmates thought it was awesome that I hadn’t been caught and made the choice for me not to do that so that we could continue to capitalize on my rep in other situations. Obviously that was lower stakes, but I’ve replayed that dynamic in other situations and I think the key is that when you’re in a situation where you’re the favored one – giving them the option of how far they want you to push fixing that.

    2. Shantay you stay*

      I’m right there with you. My boss will say, “Thanks so much. I appreciate you.” but never to my coworkers. It’s embarrassing and I’m not sure how to tackle it either.

      I also try not to take advantage of it, considering how poorly she treats others, I don’t find her adoration or preference to me to be real or authentic.

      Does she outwardly treat others poorly and not for good reason? Subordinates or coworkers having a different working style, if not a different gender, isn’t appropriate reasons for her to treat them worse and prize you.

      You and I are being placed in inappropriate situations, mostly requiring triangulation to get things done and to help our coworkers feel better in the workplace. Two of my coworkers, who aren’t favored, have secured other work, so it’ll just be me. But when they hire on other people, and my boss like them better (since she has this penchant) will I be cast aside or if the new hires aren’t to her liking will I have to fend for them?

      Right now, I’m going along to get along. I’m nice to her, we work well together and I can’t (and my coworkers don’t expect) treat her badly because I don’t like her or she’s mean to them. We all have to take care of ourselves first and then we can help others.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      I’m in a similar situation. My boss is apparently pushing people out of their jobs, which baffles me– she’s generally pleasant and helpful. But the issues are happening at another location so I can’t see what’s going on. Some of it is performance-related.

      I don’t think there’s much we can do. When coworkers complain to me about my boss, I say something like “Oh, that hasn’t been my experience with her. I’m sorry you feel that way.” And then change the subject.

      It’s a really awkward position to be in. But I think a lot of it comes down to managing people differently based on their performance. You and I are better performers than most people on our team; therefore we warrant less hands-on treatment. Is it possible for you to advocate for your male coworker? “I think Bob would be a really great fit for the project because of XYZ. Can we add him to the project team?”

    4. Silver Radicand*

      I think the most valuable thing you can do is advocate for things that affect the group. If you have influence, then use it well. That being said, higher quality work really does make a difference in how you boss will view you, so don’t be totally afraid to use that leeway. Just be willing when something comes up that affects you and others to help steer your boss in the right direction for all of you.

      On a completely different note, being the “the boss’s favorite” could mean that you are on the track for promotion etc. If you are able, try to look at what you would want to change if you were to end up getting that promotion and spend your capital there.

      Kudos to you for being aware of this.

  100. Zillah*

    I have a background in library science/archiving/research/social justice-y adjacent stuff and need a new job. I’m also severely ADHD, which is mostly under control at work but still makes punctuality really difficult, so I need something with flexible hours/no hard start time, which disqualifies a lot of normal library jobs. Ideally, I’d be able to work from home sometimes, because I get sick more often than most people + occasionally get asthma attacks or migraines.

    Does anyone have any thoughts for where I can look/what I should look for that meets that?

    (If your advice is anything along the lines of “work harder to be on time” or “talk to your doctor so you get sick less,” please just scroll by and keep it to yourself. That is not my question, and that answer will not help me.)

    1. animaniactoo*

      I don’t know a lot about the field, but it sounds like possibly something that is project-based research? Where you have an overall deadline but not specific hours in one location, as you might need to go to find stuff at a few different sites? Could work from home part of the time doing some of the on-line research, collating notes, working on write-up, etc.?

    2. The Other Liz*

      I work a 9 to 5 social justice nonprofit job, and it’s pretty flexible hours in reality though not on paper. It varies by who your supervisor is. My supervisor does a lot of coalition relationship management so will often email to say “coffee meeting, be in at 10” and they aren’t strict about arriving at 9, and also don’t look down on leaving at 5:01. Some of our researchers work their own odd hours, like I knew a guy who’d come in at 4:00 because he liked the quiet time to be alone with his spreadsheets. People also work out work from home arrangements on a case by case basis. I think anywhere where they’re forgiving of late arrivals and care more about the work getting done than butts in seats for 8 hours a day would work for you – it works for ME, and I have ADD and punctuality problems. But I didn’t ask in the interviews – I found out from a friend of a friend who worked there but was NOT on my interviews – asking if the hours are flexible during an interview sends a signal that doesn’t go over well.

    3. Turtlewings*

      I’m the head (and only FT member) of the interlibrary loan department at my library, and since I’m not covering a customer-facing desk, I’ve found I’m able to be more flexible with time than at most other library positions. We don’t formally allow for working from home, but since the ILL program we use (Tipasa) is cloud-based, there is a certain amount I can do from home when I need to. (Though ILL still needs a great deal of in-library presence due to physical handling of items!) I don’t know how common a set-up this is and whether you could duplicate it — there’s a lot of variables involved — but it might give you something to look for?

    4. Ellery*

      Have you looked in the private sector? I am a technical services librarian at a law firm and I have no strict start time and can work from home a few days a month.

    5. OtterB*

      Maybe something at a nonprofit association or think tank kind of place doing background research/writing? Those orgs are all different, but may be flexible on a non-client-facing job.

    6. Fortitude Jones*

      Maybe content management would be a good field for you to get into. I imagine your strong research skills would be an asset, and I’ve seen a couple of these jobs posted on job boards with remote opportunities.

  101. Strawberry*

    Does this sound normal to you all? I’m still newish as a manager but have been here for years.

    It’s been established that my boss likes to give a certain team the “worst” people…underperformers or lukewarm candidates. Boss’s reasoning to do this to that manager is that “well you’re really good at turning them around!” Other managers are not held to this standard.

    A most recent example was that our team was performing well, thanks to that manager’s training & coaching on the current team members we had (I worked closely under her so I knew what she was doing on a regular basis). Most of them were not well received in the beginning by myself and others but through a lot of hard work, they’ve become solid, dependable employees (some were let go after months/years of documenting, which was a headache for another post).

    Our boss decided that since one team was suffering/faltering, she took two of our people. When we pushed back, we got told we were not team players and unwilling to help their fellow teams and how dare we do this when they helped us for many years. (But the reason we always needed help was b/c we had weak team members which she always threw at us?)

    I’m facing something similar now that I am a manager and have my own team in a growing department. The dept has three teams: mine and two others. There’s an employee – Jill – who’s been here for about a year. They are not a strong performer and spend a lot of time socializing and have unreliable attendance. Jill’s first manager refused to discipline them. They were getting annoyed but figured “oh she’s moving to another team so whatever.” Jill made her transition to the new team and that manager quit after a few months. In between Jill’s second manager and current manager, Jack, she had no manager for about 3 months. Now that she is working under Jack, she has been written up and put on a PIP. Jill has claimed that she will quit if she cannot move to my team. From what I could determine, my boss was willing to let her walk but I am still skeptical. I also have two FT employees: Mary and Rachel. Mary and Rachel are doing great work and have great attitudes. Because of them my team is doing well. I am scared that the other two teams will try to “take” my resources away.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Can you say something like “Jill, we need your skillset, but we can’t let people change teams to avoid a PIP, so if you join my team we will continue your PIP, and you will be encouraged to continue your evolution into a better employee.”

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      In my org, being on a PIP makes you ineligible for transfer, unless managers on both ends push for it. (I posted a while back about a staffer who was totally failing her training and on a PIP – convoluted story, but she just got a transfer offer to another team, because my boss didn’t want to fire her and she’s been successful with the other team in the past, and both managers went to HR to push it through even though she was technically not eligible.)

  102. anonymousanonfornow*

    I’m working with a coach (I have a rather dispiriting job search going at the moment) and she recommended calling the hiring manager to follow up after applying for a role. This is not a thing, right?

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Cold-calling the HM? Definitely not a thing. It’s on par with adding “I’ll call you to schedule an interview” to your cover letter.

      I think the only exception is if you personally know the hiring manager (or otherwise have a strong mutual connection who vouches for you) and are letting them know you applied, kind of as a heads-up but not a sales-push.

  103. Sally Sparrow*

    I am just going to keep asking teacher questions or just rambling in general. SO is the final candidate for a public school job 1-1.5hrs (drive) away from where we live but has not been officially offered the job. They are saying to alert current principal (for certification purposes since it is different states and they need a signed record from school of years worked). So we’re pretty confident with that one.

    At the same time they are moving (rapidly) through the interview process for a private school job that is 30 minutes (walk) from where we live. Since it is private, certification isn’t a requirement. They interviewed yesterday morning, and got called back for a demo lesson a few hours later for Monday. Private school is their top choice and not just for the infinitely better commute. Private school has also said that they are already moving quickly.

    They haven’t told each school that they are still interviewing (let alone the current school). Anyone have any recommendations on the best way to handle this? When asked, I say they should do so but neither of us are quite sure how to approach it with the schools.

    1. Middle School Teacher*

      I think it depends a lot on relationship SO has with the current principal. Mine would be happy for me, but we’re good friends. I’ve worked with others who’d be like, cool, don’t let the door hit you on the way out.

      As for informing the other schools… I can see it going both ways. Either “we want him so we better move fast to snap him up before the other school does” vs “well, he has other options so maybe we don’t need to rush”. In the past I’ve kept it to myself in this situation.

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      Since the private school is the top choice, I’d probably try to delay the public school contacting the current school. I wouldn’t tell the current school either way (unless the relationship is really good there) until absolutely necessary. On the other hand, if leaving the current school is inevitable, I’d maybe consider telling them about the other public school just to keep that ball rolling in case the private school doesn’t pan out.

  104. Crazy Pug Lady*

    Hi All,

    I’m a long-time lurker and first-time poster with somewhat of a non-question. Is it normal to feel a bit off after a coworker is fired for performance issues? For context, I’m working on a small team (3 people) and a year out of a career transition from academia. The colleague who was let go had considerable issues, but is a good person and was on the team that hired me. My boss handled everything wonderfully (explaining that our jobs weren’t in danger, making sure we were away when the person was terminated, etc.), but this kind of thing is extremely rare here. My coworker had been with the company about twenty years, not unusual for my employer, which is rather stable. She’s also at an age where it might be difficult to make a career transition.

    Anyway, I ended up helping to carry her stuff and we both cried. I know my boss made the right decision for the team and I have a great relationship with her, but it was a tough week. Can anyone relate?

    1. JobHunter*

      That’s rough. As another ex-academic, I think that your ‘off’ feeling might stem from the relative security that academic jobs have.

      The first time I saw a manager escorted from the building the morning after they turned in their notice shocked me terribly. This person was very knowledgeable, had been with the company over a decade, and was pleasant to work with. I have seen other managers escorted out since, and feel icky about it every time.

    2. blink14*

      I’ve actually been through 5 firings of co-workers in academia! My department used to be located with a larger one, and during a rough transition, that department let go 5 people in the span of about a year. 3 of the 5 were due to a “regime change” so to speak, and their new boss basically cleaned house. 1 was due to misrepresented harassment claim, and 1 was truly justified in that the person just wasn’t functioning well in the job.

      It sounds like it was handle really appropriately, but it’s always sad to see someone go in that manner. In most cases though, you’ll both move on and frankly after awhile you likely won’t even think on it much anymore. There’s a sort of false sense of friendship/closeness that develops at work because you spend so much time together. But once the common denominator of work is removed, the majority of work friendships don’t last.

    4. Policy wonk*

      Yes. It is hard. And even though the person was a poor performer, expect everyone around you to be on pins and needles for a while, wondering if they are next. Though the fear is irrational, it is real. If you really like the person, meet her for coffee or a drink in a couple of weeks to see how she is doing and figure out if you want to maintain a relationship.

  105. Nervous about Notice*

    How to decline extending my notice period without burning bridges?

    I resigned this week and gave 2.5 weeks notice. My manager first off didn’t talk to me for almost two days after I resigned. Then he came back and said that he wants a months notice (and that their counter offer is 5k more when my new salary is 22k more) but I really just want to leave.

    We are super short staffed but that’s not really on me. I just don’t like how my manager is trying to guilt me into it. He mentioned that he was trying to think of my coworker and how he would feel and how it would be so helpful if I was there when a new hire starts, which would be the week after my original notice period.

    I really don’t want to stay for an extra month, I already gave more than two weeks. How can I decline without looking like a horrible person??

    1. Amber Rose*

      “I’m sorry, but I won’t be able to extend my notice period.”

      That’s all. The guilt trip is making you feel like you need to justify yourself but you really, really don’t. Reasonable people do not hear that and think you’re a horrible person. If this guy is not reasonable (which it sounds like) there’s not much you can do to avoid burning bridges if he wants to set them on fire.

    2. Amethyst*

      “I’m sorry; I’ve already committed to New Job and cannot accommodate it. My last day has to be Date.”

      Just because he’s guilting you into doing it doesn’t mean you have to. Don’t fall for manipulation tactics. That’s (short staffed; “think of the coworkers you’re leaving behind!”) THEIR issue, not yours.

      Congrats!

      1. Troutwaxer*

        “I’m sorry; I’ve already committed to New Job and cannot accommodate it. My last day has to be Date.”

        Very nicely phrased. I like it.

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I would change the “has to be” to “will be” – the former makes it sound like OP is asking permission when she’s not. This is a non-negotiable matter.

    3. Jamie*

      By knowing it doesn’t make you a horrible person to adhere to professional norms.

      You gave more notice than expected and frankly people leaving and others having to deal with that is part of doing business. All you owe your co-worker is to tie up loose ends and whatever else you can do to make the transition easier during your notice period.

      If they want people to give month long notice periods they should make it so lucrative people want to do that. But also still be gracious for those who decline.

    4. Person from the Resume*

      I’m sorry, I can’t do that.

      Possibly blame the new job: I’m sorry, but I start my new job .

    5. Natalie*

      Sometimes it’s tempting to think that you can manage an unreasonable person to the point that you won’t be subject to their irrational reaction, but you actually can’t. As long as you remain polite and professional, if the bridge burns it’s because he started it on fire.

    6. CatCat*

      If your boss is going to be snotty, that’s on him, not you. He’s the one being horrible by suggesting you’re somehow responsible for your coworkers feelings about this. WTH.

      “No, that’s not possible. [DATE] must be my last day.” Rinse and repeat as often as necessary regardless of your boss’s unprofessional guilt tripping.

    7. Temperance*

      You don’t worry about looking like “a horrible person”, and you decline it because you’re starting your new job and need to move on. You don’t give a reason, you don’t let the guilt take you.

      Your manager sounds like a big baby. Giving you the silent treatment at work? No. “I can’t.” is a complete sentence.

    8. Lilysparrow*

      “Sorry, that’s not going to work for me.”

      Leaving a job for a better job is a normal, reasonable thing to do.

      Taking a job because it has a large salary bump is a normal, reasonable thing to do.

      Giving 2 weeks notice is also normal & reasonable.

      When somebody tries to hijack you from pursuing your own best interest by making you feel guilty over normal, reasonable choices, that is manipulation. Your boss is trying to make you feel that you owe him something, when the whole point of quitting is that his problems are not your problems anymore.

      There is a horrible person in this situation. But it’s not you.

  106. Amethyst*

    I’m back at my old job! They called me on Tuesday to offer me a position I’d applied for almost 3 months ago and didn’t hear back from after the in-person interview. I’m getting $1 and change more per hour than I made when I was laid off. Seniority will be reinstated, and I don’t have to deal with the orientation crap; just the mandatory medical stuff (medical office). AND I’ll have every Friday off (excepting mandatory overtime before end of month stuff).

    I start on the first! So excited to be back.

    1. Fortitude Jones*

      Congratulations! There’s only one former company I would ever return to (an insurance company), but in another role than the one I left – they also honor the seniority you held before you quit and don’t require you to do typical new hire things.

    2. Flyleaf*

      Keep looking for a new job. You can now do it from the comfort of having a job. But they showed you their true colors when you were laid off even though you were still needed. Look around until you find something better, with better management.

  107. Extra Super Anon*

    Just have to get this off my chest:
    I work for a teapot engineering and manufacturing firm in what is generally seen as a diverse, liberal part of the country. When I first applied for the job, the one GlassDoor review of the company said that they were stuck in the 70s. Silly me, I thought they meant the cork wall boards. When I started, I thought it odd that of the maybe 70 people in the company, only 7 were women and another 7 were PoC. (Bonus: All but one of the PoC work outside the office, all but one of the women work in admin.)
    Last week, I was in an office with a department head and a senior VP. Casual as anything, the department head told me a joke involving sexual assault. While I was picking my jaw up off the floor, the senior VP mentioned that he had told the same joke to the CEO of the company the previous week at our annual dinner.
    I’m feeling more than a little stuck. If the SVP told the CEO that remarkably horrible joke and he’s still employed, I feel that my going to HR isn’t going to accomplish anything. So instead, I am polishing my resume and preparing to leave. I’ve kept a list of every racist and sexist thing I’ve heard and plan to leave this with HR at my exit interview. Really don’t know what other options there are.

  108. alacrity*

    How common are skip-meetings or indirect report meetings? When my the department head took over the department he scheduled meetings with all of his indirect reports. It was the first time that I as a lower level employee was ever given an opportunity to share my opinion on something without it being filtered up through two managers. I believe that conversation lead directly to my current position/promotion. Which is all great, except that was 2015. It’s 2019 and he hasn’t had one since. He has 10 direct reports (including one admin) and 10 indirect reports (including 3 admins). So I’d like to know from others in corporate settings how common it is for the head boss to actually schedule time to hear from people who don’t directly report to him.

    1. Natalie*

      I’m about 10 years in to a professional career and I have my first one coming up this summer. I had also never heard the term “skip meeting” in any context before (just figured out what it means from your post, actually). So data point of 1, but I would say not common.

      1. alacrity*

        A coworker brought that term up when I mentioned “meeting with indirect reports” and the practice was apparently very common in her former industry, but it’s good to know that it’s not a common term.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I have a formal scheduled 1:1 with my grandboss about once a year, but ours is an environment where I can drop her an email or jabber at any point about something if I want to, or if on-site stick my head in her office for an informal chat.

    3. Booksalot*

      I’ve had one such meeting, and I’ve been working office jobs for close to 20 years.

    4. Fortitude Jones*

      I’m going to echo the “not common” refrain here. I’ve only had these meetings when just starting with a company or when the VP of my division wanted dirt on my bad boss so he could build a case to demote her.

  109. Another Manic Monday*

    I work at a government agency and I do love my job, my bosses, and my coworkers. Yet, I have now updated my resume and started applying for positions at other government agencies.

    My overall satisfaction with my work place doesn’t make up for the fact that I am severely underpaid for the amount of work that I do. I can’t justify to myself that I should stay when I get paid considerable less than my worth to them as an employee. Due to a year-long hiring freeze, I haven’t even been given a single opportunity to compete for a higher position within the agency, so it’s time to look for that position somewhere else. I don’t want to leave, but I have to or my career will stall.

    2. Environmental Compliance*

      That’s a good portion of why I left gov’t, myself. Also why one of the agencies I left is running at such a high turnover rate. It was a great place to work, truly. Great training, good benefits, good location. I had a good boss. I liked the work I did. But I was being paid diddly, and all the freezes meant I couldn’t go anywhere within the agency. There was no up – it was just so stagnant. There’s been a lot of us that skeddaddled.

    3. JobHunter*

      I have been looking at applying to government jobs, but find the process pretty intimidating and a little confusing. For example, one position asked for a ‘statement of citizenship’. (Is this a form? Do I state it in my cover letter?) Is there a human-friendly guide to the process somewhere that I missed?

  110. WellRed*

    Stupid job title posting of the week: Master of First Impressions.

    I am guessing…receptionist?

      1. De Minimis*

        I’ve seen it as Director of First Impressions, which I guess is at least a director position.

      2. WellRed*

        That article is what made me notice the posting! It may have been for keller williams.

        1. Ella P.*

          I think their titles are standard across all company locations. It’s a tough hiring process (personality test, 15 references, etc.) without good pay or benefits, just in case you were considering applying.

      3. Anonyby*

        At a different real estate company, but the receptionist that was there when I was first hired had that in her signature! (Now we have a different in-house term that’s really non-indicative and relates to other duties they’ve added on to the receptionist and other office admins.)

    4. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      Dear Sir or Madam,

      I am applying for the position of Master of First Impressions. I believe I would be an excellent fit for the position because I have often been told I leave quite the first impression! I once had a roommate in college assigned to me who immediately went to get her room assignment changed within mere minutes of meeting me (I think it might have been the clown suit I was wearing at the time, or maybe the goats I planned to keep in the room). Many people remember me the second time we meet even if the first meeting was over a year ago, and can even remember what I was wearing and many of my strong political and social opinions from the previous meeting. Several of my former friends and co-workers have confirmed that folks will often talk about the impression I just made as soon as I leave the room.

      In conclusion, I think I would be a strong asset (or some kind of ass, anyway) in this position and hope to hear from you soon!

      Sincerely,
      Seven Hobbits
      First Impression-Maker Extraordinaire

      2. Gumby*

        Heh. Reminds me of the Dave Barry article about arguing effectively. “I can win an argument on any topic, against any opponent. People know this, and steer clear of me at parties. Often, as a sign of their great respect, they don’t even invite me.”

    5. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Last year I got an email from the “Happiness Lead” of some outsourcing company. My workmates and I had a good laugh.

  111. Retail not Retail*

    2.5 weeks ago i told my manager i was not comfortable working with someone. I wrote a 2 page statement.

    The next day I had a weird meeting with the head of HR and my manager where they definitely implied that we can’t control people we can only control ourselves so. Then my manager went on vacation. He came back yesterday and nothing happened. He’s off today and tomorrow.

    I’m so TIRED

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Sorry, I must be missing some background here. Why weren’t you comfortable working with this person?

      1. Retail not Retail*

        He says sexist stuff and forgets my name and is now behaving in unsafe ways (he side swiped a pole on grounds so now he can’t drive so he’s my passenger and he opens the door while i’m still moving)

        I just feel demoralized – we lost someone right after i reported his behavior so it’s just me and him all day every day

        1. WellRed*

          Does your job require driving? Is it your car? They can’t make you drive him. Are you clearly documenting everything? I’d focus on the sexism and the dangerous behavior, leave out stuff like he can’t remember your name.

          1. Retail not Retail*

            We use work trucks to get around and since we’re partnered together, one of us has to drive!

            The name forgetting was actually part of a bigger pattern – he never mixed up any new guy’s name for FOUR MONTHS but the two women he worked with? He just couldn’t keep our names straight even when it was really really important.

            I documented the sexism in the statement and meeting (had to go over and OVER why “young lady” is indeed sexist) but like um? Can you wait until I’ve stopped to open the door – sometimes he’s done this when i haven’t been planning on stopping! Of course I’m usually going 5mph.

            Anyway i just realized today that i asked not to work with him bc of his gross sexist and demeaning talk and nothing! Has! Happened!

        3. Environmental Compliance*

          TBH – this may be a situation where your boss sucks and isn’t going to change, and it may be better to get out if you can.

          I would not be driving him if the job does not require it. Document, document, document – show it’s a repeated pattern.

  112. LGC*

    So, I want to know if I’m over-reacting to something that happened at work last week and this week.

    A couple of weeks ago, everyone in the organization got an email from an external address out of the blue about a training course. (This was from a company I’d never heard of before or worked with.) It looked suspicious enough to me that I was about to report it to IT for phishing before my boss told me that the email was intentional and everyone in the organization (including clients) were mandated to watch it by the deadline of today.

    After getting reminder emails to watch it every day for a week and a half, I finally sat down to watch it on Wednesday. It…was quite graphic. (And at several points, extremely camp.) There wasn’t any actual violence, but the scenes that were simulated were really explicit, in my opinion – as in, people being shot and killed.

    My organization bungled this, right? Am I wrong to feel like they should have at least said, “Hey, you guys have to watch this training video – it’s X minutes long, and has some graphic content” before they blasted this to everyone? (Especially considering since – because we’re voc rehab – we have lots of consumers with mental health issues and intellectual disabilities. Not that that’s the only reason I thought the way they handled it was terrible, but especially that.) On the other hand, it doesn’t necessarily seem like other people were that bothered by it, so I’m thinking that I might be a bit sensitive.

      1. LGC*

        It was active shooter training – so…yeah, it was probably reasonable that they’d demonstrate what it’d look like, but also I was caught a little off guard. I’ll admit I was pretty upset right afterwards, though – but also I’m not sure if it’s an issue with me.

        So that actually answers vampire physicist’s question below as well!

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          Yeah, I’d be upset – I’ve had active shooter trainings where there was no graphic content, but also did a role play exercise which was awful. But with the role play exercise we did have a very very directly cautioning email sent out multiple times to warn people.

          I think though with a topic like that, where it’s logical that graphic content may be included, it should still be warned about. I would mention it to whoever organizes these trainings – it’s a very simple thing to do to include a statement about graphic content.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Yeah, the active shooter videos I’ve watched at work have never shown people actually being shot – what the hell?! I would definitely be disturbed by this if I wasn’t warned ahead of time.

            1. LGC*

              My working assumption is that they just didn’t watch it before sending it out – the way it was handled was sketchier than usual, since normally we’ll get an all-staff email explaining what’s going to go down and a note to tell consumers (who don’t have company email addresses) in person about it.

              I am absolutely aware of how insane that previous sentence is, but that’s legitimately the least insane possibility I can think of.

    2. vampire physicist*

      No, you sound reasonable to me. I’ve had to go through potentially triggering training before (mandated reporting, sexual harassment) and usually they at least explained what it was (and frequently it was through an outside link, but they provided some background in a separate email, e.g. “You will be receiving mandatory sexual harassment training from our 3rd-party training program, please complete this by the end of the month). Unless this was specifically called “active shooter training” or something to that effect this seems mishandled.

    3. BigRedGum*

      Is this the active shooter training? We have to watch the You Tube video every year AND go to a half day conference about it.

      I freaking hate it. It’s awful and scary, but it’s also a real thing that could happen, so I guess I now know how to Run, Hide, and then Fight.

      Ugh. Ugh. Ugh.

      1. LGC*

        Yeah – I was being vague about it, but it was an active shooter video. (Technically, it wasn’t on YouTube, but yeah.) Fortunately, it was JUST the video, but it was still really unpleasant!

    4. Ghostwriter*

      Have you checked that it’s real training? It sounds like you could have been phished.

      1. LGC*

        I talked to upper management before watching, and they said it was legit – and HR sent out a follow-up email afterwards clarifying what we were supposed to do.

        Honestly, I’d have preferred being phished to whatever this was supposed to be.

  113. AllHoursAnon*

    My partner has recently started their first post-school job in IT which requires them to be on call 24/7 for at least one week a month (sometimes two depending on how the rotation falls). They’re expected to respond to alerts quickly at all hours and have been provided a work phone that BLASTS when there’s an alert. My partner is quite worried about the toll this will take mentally/physically as the phone truly goes off at all hours (seems to average every hour to 90 minutes it goes off). I’m a standard office worker so I don’t really have any advice and I was hoping someone here may have experience or tips they can share.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      I’m thinking that if the phone really goes off that often they probably need a nighttime person so that call is only on the weekends.
      My hubs is on call 24/7 all weeks and he does get calls often but not every hour every night. Bad weeks do get him kicked out to another bedroom.

    2. Natalie*

      seems to average every hour to 90 minutes it goes off

      The following comes from a property management background (mine and my husband’s) – if your partner is receiving calls hourly over night, as in during the time they would normally be sleeping, this isn’t sustainable. It’s not considered normal or sustainable in property management and it shouldn’t be in IT.

      The only job husband has had where the call frequency was this high is a deeply dysfunctional org that it pushing it’s staffing problem onto existing employees, driving them away and exacerbating the issue. In his attempts to get something more reasonable set up, they repeatedly claimed that it was completely normal for him to be covering the amount of buildings he was, and that he should have no problem not being able to get a full night’s sleep for an entire week because obviously so many of his coworkers could do it. (Ron Howard voice: they couldn’t.) I mention that since you said this is your partner’s first post-college job and they may have heard something similar. Just because the company says that, and may even believe it, doesn’t make it true. It’s perfectly fine for your partner to decide they cannot tolerate this and move on, it doesn’t make them lazy or inadequate or whatever else is implied by “nobody else is complaining”.

      1. AllHoursAnon*

        Thank you so much for your perspective, my initial gut reaction was it isn’t normal or sustainable but I have no background to base it on. The general thought at this company seems to be since it’s usually only 5-10 minutes of ‘work’ it isn’t worth it to have dedicated staff overnight and instead just pay OT for whoever handles it. There’s other red flags as well so knowing that this is another marker of a dysfunctional work place is very helpful.

        1. Natalie*

          Yeah, the problem in this case isn’t the amount of time the call takes, it’s the constant interruptions, particularly during sleeping hours. Humans biologically require some hours of uninterrupted sleep – crazy theory, I know! – and the length of interruption doesn’t do anything to mitigate that.

          This might be a good candidate for that “push back as a group” tactic – if your partner does this every 4-5 weeks there must be 3-4 other people who do it. At an absolute bare minimum, rotating on a daily basis would mean one day of interrupted sleep out of a week rather than many days in a row. But ideally they would contract this out to a company that has an actual night shift, which is what sensible companies do.

          1. AllHoursAnon*

            I agree, getting broken sleep for an entire week is no way to live. I like the push back as a team idea though, it’s a team where they’re all under 6 months tenure so it would likely have more impact.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      24/7 seems odd to me. Do they not have a support line or anything during “normal business hours”?

      I do on-call for one week once a quarter at my company (software company), and the on-call line is turned off from 8AM-6PM CST when the normal support line is open. It still sucks a bit, because it feels like I’m randomly on night shift 4 weeks a year, but it’s still doable and I get to sleep for more than a hour at a time.

      1. AllHoursAnon*

        It isn’t quite a call line. It’s an alert that something is down and during business hours this alert goes to the entire team but it’s the responsibility of the on-call person to make sure it’s dealt with ASAP and to handle these alerts outside of business hours. It honestly seems pretty confusing from an outside and reads to me like they’re not willing to hire enough staff.

        1. EddieSherbert*

          Okay, I think I get it… Still seems silly that if the alert goes to *everyone* during business hours to have the oncall person address it. It’d make more sense that it’s… literally everyone or anyone else responsibility during that time (especially since at least 3 of these people also do oncall and should know what to do, and should want a chance to sleep during their oncall week).

          I don’t really have advice since he’s new, so he probably can’t do much besides nicely ask why that’s the setup and maybe suggest the “no oncall during business hours” thing (maybe). I can validate your/his concern that this is weird, though – because it’s weird.

          1. AllHoursAnon*

            At the very least I’ve gotten validation that it’s weird which is as good of a starting point as I can hope for. With how new he is I think Natalie’s suggestion in another comment to push back as a group may be the best bet (even though they’re all fairly new) but I’ll have to leave that up to him.

    4. Admin of Sys*

      IT 24/7 on call once a month is pretty normal, but on call alerts every 90 minutes in the middle of the night is absolutely not. On-call rotation is supposed to cover things like ‘unexpected server outage’ – and if there are machines going down every hour then there’s something horrifically wrong in the environment that needs resolved. If the issues happening are normal issues and they happen all the time, then either the company needs to hire 2nd and 3rd shift folks to cover the nighttime hours or they need to redefine the SLA and only cover major outages during off hours.
      As per Natalie, that’s not sustainable.

      1. AllHoursAnon*

        Thank you for the reply, it really reaffirms my gut feeling that something is off with the company. It seems like it’s routine things so I get the feeling they’re cheaping out at the expense of their employee’s.

    1. Ella P.*

      In Portugal they have a saying, roughly translates to ” the person who says nothing, consents”.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      Yup. I sat near a guy who was having a small team meeting (all young-ish males who were junior to the meeting leader). Guy made some off-color remarks, junior guys kinda chuckled and of course none of them pushed back even if none of them continued the comments. I turned and gave them a pointed look, which most of them saw, but didn’t say anything.

      Then Guy proceeds to say something pretty darn offensive and again the junior guys just went along with it. And that’s when I spoke up and said “That’s really inappropriate.” Conversation went back to work stuff after that and I went on to have a lower opinion of all the junior guys who were either comfortable with gross comments or not willing to rock the boat. (Already had a low opinion of Guy, ugh.)

  115. Emily B.*

    I’ve been offered a position in the federal government starting on July 8, but the HR rep says that I’ll get the final offer “on or before July 3”. My start date was finalized a week or two ago, so there’s been plenty of time, and especially with the holiday weekend after July 3, it seems like a weirdly late/bad date for me to get the offer letter. I’m not worried about the offer not going through–I’ve already gotten a security clearance, I’ve gotten calendar invitations to orientation/training events, I’ve made an account for an employer-specific online training service, so things are moving. There’s a firm, non-negotiable starting salary/benefits based on my experience, so I’m not worried about having time to negotiate either. It just feels weird to be making plans for a cross-country move without having the final offer. Why might they want to wait so long? Do I have any standing to ask for the offer letter sooner? If so, what would be the best way to ask?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I’ve had that happen before in gov’t. There’s red tape in all sorts of weird places. When it happened to me it was very simply just the process it had to go through and someone that had to sign was on vacation and so then it had to wait yadda yadda yadda. It’s weird, but that’s gov’t for you. *shrug*

  116. Canonical23*

    Has anyone had any experience with moving from a job on a pretty high level of the hierarchy to a much lower one? I’m currently the second-in-command at a non-profit and it’s a really taxing job. I do like it, but it’s a lot of work and a lot of stress. I’m in my mid-twenties and have been in this field for about ten years now (started working very young). It’s been a very fast trend upwards, with me taking some huge steps up the ladder in the last four years. Lately, though, it feels like it’s untenable. My mental and physical health is taking a toll and I just feel like I can’t keep up, even though performance-wise, my staff and boss are pleased with my work.

    I’ve considered searching for a job in a related field that would have less responsibilities but a similar amount of work to do, i.e. I don’t want to have a job where 60% of the week is sitting around waiting for something to do, but I also don’t want to be in charge of multiple people and their success. Less being in charge and more being a contributor. But I don’t know what kind of impact that would have on my future career if I decided later to continue up the ladder. Does that decision doom any future chances of high-level management? And how does one even explain this decision in a cover letter/interview for a different position?

    1. Fox outlasts hedgehog*

      Yes. I’ve been in public service (military and non-profit) for 20 years. I started in direct client services, then military officer, then evaluation, then Executive Director, then fundraising, site manager, contracting, and now a Coordinator. My arc is wide and diverse, both in responsibilities and non-profit interest areas.

      How to explain it? Well for awhile it was because my husband and I were dual military. But in general, I’ve never relied on progression and more on what I’ve accomplished in each role. The non-profit world doesn’t have a career ladder per se. I’d rather hire someone who has seen all facets of non-profit than the one who tracked only in one area. Considering so many times, one person does many jobs, that allows us to ebb and flow in the career field.

      It’s how you frame why you sought change in repsonsibilities that matters, not that you went up, down, lateral, out of the industry, and back in again. Do what is right for you to be the best person and employee in the role, not what you think the industry expects. Our current Ex Director only has non-profit marketing and now she’s managing the whole thing without experience in fundraising, programs, events etc. She’s finding it challenging to manage whereas I found it very helpful to have worked in many different areas when I became an Ex Director.

      Be a fox – know a little about everything. It’s valuable in non-profit

    2. Lily Rowan*

      Looking for a job that is substantively different from your current one always feels easier to me. Your cover letter says you are looking for a position with more of a focus on X. And you can always move up the ladder later.

      You have PLENTY OF TIME to do whatever.

  117. Pinky Pie*

    I’m fixing to turn down a position which is a stunner to me. The salary is too low and the timing isn’t right. I’m making x freelance part time. The salary is x+ 2,000 full time and benefits.

      1. Pinky Pie*

        I’m working 25 hours a week on average and made $26,000 in the past six months. Benefits through my husband’s job. The job offer was 45-55 a week making $56,000 with crappier health insurance than we already have.

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          Without knowing your industry it’s hard to say whether $56k is a stunningly bad offer, but congratulations on doing so well with your freelancing! Although keep in mind, employees get their payroll taxes paid for by the employer, so $56k +taxes+benefits might come out a lot closer to what you’re making now.

  118. Office Worker*

    My boss has done some things lately that make the staff not trust her (listened in on our phone calls, which is possible with the phones we have; is on the phone for hours with another person on our team who tattles about things she overhears in the office; will not listen to constructive criticism or advice about things that aren’t working, and instead doubles down on the “I’m the boss and this is how I want to do things” even though it isn’t helpful to her or the team to do things that way). Now we have to be all kumbaya and do all kinds of team building stuff. We’re all in different states so the team building stuff is not in person, but instead through phone calls or email or whatever. This will not rebuild the team’s trust in her. We won’t get closer, like we used to be, by playing 2 Truths and a Lie or whatever.

    Sorry for the vent. I guess the question in all this is-would you be honest about the problems on your upcoming 1:1s with the boss, or just say something meaningless while working on an exit plan?

    2. NACSACJACK*

      I hate Two Truths and A Lie – that’s a trust-building exercise? How? I also hate the 9 things board.

  119. JeanB in NC*

    Does anyone have some wording for my cover letter that would say that I’m 10 years away from retirement and that I’m looking for something lower level than what I’ve done in the past? I don’t want a job that’s going to require a lot of new learning, I just want to do accounts payable. I’ve been a full-charge bookkeeper and non-degreed staff accountant in the past, but I’ve actually had problems with my memory recently and I don’t feel like I can do full justice to those types of positions any more.

    1. boredatwork*

      I’ve never actually made a cover letter for an accounting role..

      My suggestion is to use a recruiter – that way you can target the right jobs, at the right kind of companies, and get the awkward are you too old and therefore “too expensive” to hire stuff out of the way. Some companies will appreciate your years of experience and some won’t.

    2. JessicaTate*

      I’m going to paraphrase some language I received in a recent cover letter from an applicant that was in your shoes. It was a situation where I looked at the resume and was like, “Whoa, way more experience than I need.” But then they addressed it in the letter very deftly, and that moved it into consideration for me.

      “In planning the next stage of my career, I reflected on what’s important to me. Position X is exactly the type of opportunity I am looking for, which is to focus on accounts payable work. I recognize that I may not be a typical candidate for this position, given my past experience [as a full-charge bookkeeper/accountant]. I want to make clear that I understand it is a more junior position, but I see this as an opportunity to focus on the [accounts payable] work that I most enjoy, while still being able to draw on my greater experience with [all forms of bookkeeping] to help the team.”

  120. PretzelGirl*

    Does anyone know how to go about getting some legit work from home jobs? Something that can be done in addition to my 9-5. I need more income. I DO NOT want sales or MLM. Data entry, customer service, virtual assistant anything along those lines. I am administrative assistant by Day.

    **sorry if this isn’t allow, feel free to delete**

    1. Roja*

      Flexjobs is where I found my two (?) captioning/transcription jobs. They vet everything so you know everything is legit. There’s a bunch of WAHM websites that screen similarly and are good resources.

    2. Amethyst*

      I go to ratracerebellion [dot] com. They compile all the legit WFH jobs into a daily post + do 1-2 posts/day re: new/popular WFH jobs from companies if warranted. They have a FB page under the same name. They’re great.

  121. Prawn to be wild*

    Some prawns have gone missing from the office fridge. There have been multiple emails about prawns. There are notes, plural, with drawings.

    I don’t think I’m supposed to be finding it this amusing. (NB, I am not the prawn thief.)

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      With drawings???!

      I love this. I would also find it greatly amusing. I also have a knit prawn softie that I would 100% start hiding around the office.

      I have the humor maturity of a 10 year old some days. Most days, if I’m honest.

        1. Environmental Compliance*

          I have a prawn softie but also a Shrimprabbit (hand knit by moi) from the new game Darwin’s Choice, because why not knit a shrimprabbit??

    2. Jamie*

      Like cartoon drawings or crime scene drawings?

      Are they on milk cartons asking “have you seen this prawn?”

    3. Release the Kraken*

      I’m picturing the prawns reanimating and making some sort of dramatic escape, leaving behind a befuddled and hungry employee. They’re undoubtedly off somewhere enjoying their hard-won freedom. Mystery solved!

        1. Ella P.*

          LOL… so I’m kinda impressed anyone was keeping prawns in the office refridge to begin with!

    6. Prawn to be wild*

      The drawings are of prawns, presumably in case the person who stole them doesn’t know what prawns look like and/or so people can be on the lookout.

      No missing pet poster yet. But damn I wish I had thought of that before I left the office.

      1. Prawn to be wild*

        Sorry, obviously they’re of prawns.

        They’re neither cartoon nor crime scene. More… still life / likeness so you will recognise the abducted prawns I guess?!

        1. Lilith*

          Add things like “may be seen in the company of minced garlic, linguini and white wine. Has been known to accompany crusty French bread. ”
          These signs & posters could be hilarious.

      1. Ella P.*

        Yes! and I love Prawn to be Wild and Prawn Theif… The Prawn Liberator?… Prawn of the Dawn… Prawny4U

        Forgive me, I had a REALLY long week…

  122. PretzelGirl*

    Does anyone know of resources for finding a legit work from job. NO SALES or MLMs. I need something I can do in addition to my regular 9-5 job. I am administrative assistant, so I tons of experience in data entry, filing, calendar management, setting appointments. I have customer service experience too. Thanks.

    **Please delete if not allowed, sorry!**

      1. PretzelGirl*

        I’ve thought about this and I have tried searching and haven’t found anything. If anyone knows of places I can look that would great!

    2. J*

      There are clerical type jobs (among others) on Upwork. I used Upwork when unemployed for freelance writing jobs and saw other types posted all the time.

      There is also online transcription. I did that at Rev for a while, but I don’t type nearly fast enough to make any actual money.

    3. Booksalot*

      If you have a bachelor’s degree, several places are always looking for online ESL teachers. Thoroughly vet reviews, though, because some companies are terrible.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      I know a lot of these are scammy. Legit ones might be:
      Graphic design
      SEO work
      Social media
      Writing
      Medical coding/billing
      Transcription / translations
      Data research for marketing such as compiling lists of leads and contacts

    5. Tabby Baltimore*

      In addition to Flexjobs, other work-from-home employment sites that have been suggested on AAM in the past include Rev dot com, weworkremotely dot com, workingnomads dot com, jobspresso, amylynn dot org slash home, and dreamhomebasedwork dot com.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      If you’re a quick typist, National Capitol Contracting does transcription. They are very well-established, lots of federal government work as well as private clients. Strict rules but clear, fair, and pleasant to work with.

      The big downsides for me were that most of their short assignments are on an overnight turnaround, and by the time I put the kids in bed and got started, I’d wind up pulling all-nighters.

      But if the timing works out easier for you, it could be a good gig. You can give them your availability by the week.

    7. Amethyst*

      I go to ratracerebellion [dot] com. They compile all the legit WFH jobs into a daily post + do 1-2 posts/day re: new/popular WFH jobs from companies if warranted. They have a FB page under the same name. They’re great.

      (I just saw this duplicate comment under your first one so figured I’d C&P my response here in the event you don’t see your first post.)

  123. Gomez*

    I recently started a temp job, where I am classified as an independent contractor. But: I think I’m misclassified!
    – I work regular 9-5 hours
    – I’m expected to work in the office
    – I’m working with regular employees on their projects, which are for both internal and external use
    – The company provides all my equipment
    – I’m reimbursed for all expenses like travel
    – I definitely couldn’t subcontract any of my work
    When I told my boss I was confused about why I was classified as a contractor, since I seemed to act like an employee, I was told I was expected to behave like an employee but being paid as an employee was financially unfeasible.

    I’m not totally off-base in thinking I’m misclassified, right? Is there another way I could bring this up with my boss that’s more direct but doesn’t go straight to “YOU’RE BREAKING FEDERAL LAW”? I’m trying to break into this industry by temping so I’m not sure if I should just cut my losses and leave at the end of my assignment, or report them. I don’t want to be seen as a problem employee by other companies in this area before I even get a permanent position somewhere.

    1. Ella P.*

      I’m sorry, I’ve done temp work before and under all the conditions you describe… I’m unclear on how they are breaking the law?

    2. AudreyParker*

      My thought is you’re dealing with 2 different definitions of contractor. What they’re saying is you’re not their direct employee – as a temp, you are an employee of your agency contracted out to other companies. Your agency is responsible for any “employer” responsibilities, not the company where you are doing the work. “Being paid as an employee” would include that company covering taxes and benefits; right now, that’s not their problem, they’re paying the agency a cut to deal with that side.

      1. Not a Real Giraffe*

        This exactly. Gomez, you are an employee of your temp agency, who has outsourced you as an independent contractor to the company where you’re physically showing up for work. This is typical for temp positions (and temp-to-perm) positions.

    3. blink14*

      Is your ultimate employer a temp agency, who is paying your salary through their fees to your workplace, or were you hired directly by the place where you work? In either case, this seems normal. I’ve personally worked several temp jobs through an agency, and was expected to follow the normal employee guidelines at my workplaces, but my paychecks came from the temp agency. I had to submit time sheets weekly to the agency, but was expected to be in 9 to 5.

      I’ve seen temps at my current workplace that are hired directly, and they are treated more as hourly contractors. Either way what you’re explaining seems normal in my experience.

    4. ChachkisGalore*

      Are taxes being taken out of your paycheck or no? If taxes are not being taken out of your paycheck then you are correct. They are almost definitely incorrectly classifying you as an independent contractor. If taxes are being taken out of your paycheck then this is most likely ok (legally), however they (or you) are using the term independent contractor incorrectly.

      The fact that your boss told you that they can’t afford pay you as an employee makes me think they have you misclassified. By classifying you as an independent contractor there are certain tax implications that they do not have to pay, saving them money. If you met the definition of an independent contractor (which it sounds like you do not) you would be responsible for both the taxes you would normally pay and the taxes the company would pay for you. You also would not be entitled to unemployment.

      The really bad news: If they are fully aware that they should have you classified as a regular employee rather than an independent contractor, then there’s nothing else you can say to them at this point.
      The good news: This is a really big deal and no reasonable (future potential) companies will hold it against you, because all decent reputable companies understand how serious this is.

      My story: I was in your exact position. Misclassified and my employer was fully aware. I brought this up directly on a Mon or Tues (early in the week). By Friday I had been “laid off” due to lack of work. I did my research and found out that if I could prove that I was misclassified I could still file for unemployment. So I did. I won when the company tried to contest it. The fact that I was receiving unemployment from a role where I was classified as an independent contractor triggered an audit. Within a year the company had ceased operations and sold its remaining assets/content.

      1. Gomez*

        I’m a temporary employee hired directly by the company, and they do not withhold taxes.

        1. ChachkisGalore*

          Then I’m 99.9999999% sure that you are correct and what they are doing is illegal. You can try bringing it up again using something along the lines of what Alison typically recommends “Im afraid we’re running afoul of the law, and I’m sure you wouldn’t want to do that”… But they’ve already pretty much admitted that they are aware you don’t qualify as an independent contractor, so I just don’t know if that will change anything.

          I’d recommend getting whatever experience/knowledge you can out of them and then reporting them. I believe it is highly unlikely to cause issues for you/reflect poorly on you/seem like you’re a “problem” employee (though I get it – I had similar fears). Keep in mind – what they’re doing is highly illegal and they are taking advantage of you and anyone else that they are purposefully misclassifying.

          One last thing – make sure you’re setting aside money for your taxes! More so than you probably think you need. If your pay rate would put you in the 22% bracket as a regular employee then set aside closer to 30%. On top of regular federal employment taxes you’ll need to pay an additional “self-employment” tax.

  124. Sleepy*

    Anyone have experience with an employee who *has* to bring their child to work and how to manage that successfully?

    Some background: We hired a temp for the summer who recently let me know that she would have to quit unless should could bring her 12-year-old-child to work with her for a month in the summer. She did so apologetically, not demanding. It seems her partner had promised to provide childcare over the summer and is now refusing. Paid childcare would cost more than we’re paying her. I agreed because we really need her this summer; she has specialized skills and it would be impossible to replace her this late.

    On the good side, part of our summer work is actually providing youth summer extracurriculars. We allow participants age 14 and up, so her child is younger but not disastrously so. One option would be to just have the kid participate in the normal youth activities, although we might get some pushback as plenty of people want to send their 12 year olds and we always say no.

    Does anyone have suggestions about how to make this as successful as possible?

      1. Sleepy*

        No, she’ll be leading youth activities for at least part of the day and working closely on some paperwork tasks with another employee for another part of the day.

        1. CatCat*

          This is really tough. Who are the people you’re expecting push back from? Are they outsiders or other employees?

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Unless her partner has a really valid reason for now refusing to provide childcare (such as a job that doesn’t allow it)…her partner is a major asshole.
      Hopefully the kid looks a bit older…just don’t let them talk about their age or grade in school with the other kids.

    3. WellRed*

      Make sure the worker has a plan for what her child will be doing while in the office. She’s 12 so this should be fine, but best to think ahead. I personally think there’s a lot of difference between 12 and 14 year olds, but it depends on the individuals. What does the mom think about her child fitting in with the other kids/participating in activities.

    4. blink14*

      Is there a possibility of her leaving her child home in the morning (or afternoon) and bringing them in for only a half day? Not sure if they live close enough or it’s feasible.

      In terms of the activities – I would say let the kid participate and deal with complaints if you get any. Depending on maturity level, 12 and 14 can be vastly different, but I think as long as the activities are safe for that age group, they’ll be fine.

    5. PretzelGirl*

      Can your organization offer to pay for some camps she may fit in the age range for? The camps in my area like sports camps, dance, drama. STEM are usually around $65-100 for a week. Sometimes they are only half day, but maybe it would help. Also check out zoos, schools (my child’s school has half day camps and you don’t have to go or be a resident of the city), libraries etc.

      Otherwise I would just let the kid participate in the activities you offer.

    6. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’d wonder if allowing a 12-year-old to participate in the activities would be a problem for your program’s insurance coverage.

      But, yeah, this is a tough situation because summer day camps are expensive and they fill up early anyway. A 12-year-old is too young to work or volunteer for a full day. And while someone my age may have been left home alone all summer long at age 12, it’s kind of harder to do that any more, socially. They don’t call it the “tween” years for nothing. I have all the sympathy for Mom here.

      1. Lilith*

        I think 12 is old enough to be left alone at home. Not ideal but still not in need of care.

        1. Glomarization, Esq.*

          I think so, too, but lordy you would not believe the arguments you get from people sometimes. It can really vary depending on family, neighborhood, economic background, just everything.

        2. Gumby*

          Yeah, at 12 I absolutely could have spent a day at home alone. I’d have been thrilled. (And read a book or three for the whole 8 – 10 hours.) Maybe not an overnight, but during the day? Sure.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Same. 12 was when my mom started allowing me to stay home alone during the day (summer camp was too expensive for her by that point with two kids – she could only afford to pay for my younger brother).

        3. Samwise*

          It’s not really ok to leave a child that age at home all day long for a month. I know people do it because they don’t have a choice, but if it can be avoided it should be.

          1. Kathenus*

            I think this is very much a YMMV situation. I was babysitting neighborhood kids when I was 12, at least in my youth it would have been very common to have someone that age home alone. Not trying to hijack the thread on that topic, just saying that what people now call ‘free-range parenting’ when I grew up was just the norm.

            1. Kathleen_A*

              It was when and where I grew up, too. Like Kathenus, I babysat when I was 12. I don’t think my siblings and I were left home alone all day until my older brother was, say, 14 or so, but at that time and in that place, 12-year-olds were considered mature enough to be left on their own after school and even for most of the day during the summer. And it was fine.

              Which may or may not mean it ought to be fine now – I honestly have no idea. I am fairly confident that most 12-year-olds (assuming they are reasonably mature and live in a fairly safe area) ought to be OK being left alone from, say, the time they get home from school until their parents get home, or while the parents go out for dinner alone for a couple of hours. But I can see why leaving them alone all day might make people uneasy.

      2. Judgment day*

        Yeah, it is tough. I don’t know all the details of her situation, but overall it doesn’t seem good. She is in the midst of a move to a new area so I got the sense she’s uncomfortable with the new area, perhaps just the lack of community/neighbors she could ask for help. It’s quite far from our work, about 40 minutes, so that may also play a role.

        They are immigrants from a country where it isn’t really expected that the father will do much child care, so this could also be a factor. Overall, I also have a lot of sympathy for her and want to support her, especially because I think she has a lot of promise.

    7. Kathenus*

      You should think ahead as well and be aware that you’ll be setting a precedent. If other employees in the future ask to bring in their children, it might be hard to deny it if you allow it in this situation. I’m not saying to not allow it, that’s the decision for your business. But I strongly recommend thinking long-term about potential future situations as well that could arise from this one.

  125. Kat Maps*

    Any suggestions on how to approach a manager to ask that they change how they do something?
    Amongst other things, I do the majority of our website maintenance and admin. I report to the director of marketing. We are an org that hosts a lot of events, so our site is important for promoting, providing info, and registration to those events.
    For every event we host my manager creates a poster which can then be printed off and used out in the community for promo. However they also use that poster to just act as the ‘page’ for the event on our site. So for every event we host, the promo page on our website is just an uploaded JPG. No text except for the page title, just the image.
    My problem with this is that it is both terrible for website accessibility (screen readers can’t read the text on an image) and it does nothing for search engine optimization.
    If it were someone I was managing, I would have no problem explaining the situation and asking them to change how they do things. However I feel weird approaching my manager and asking them to change something they’ve been doing for longer than I’ve been working with them. Any tips on how to ask a superior to change how they do something?

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Will the program your manager uses to create the poster output it’s content as HTML 5? Or maybe your manager can give you the background graphic without text?

      1. Kat Maps*

        Yes, I’m definitely going to ask for the output as HTML 5 going forward! It feels like a nice compromise — maintain the ‘look’ while actually building a decent webpage.

    2. The Cosmic Avenger*

      Your “Director of Marketing” needs to learn what SEO means, because this is bad enough for some random person to do, but a Director of Marketing?!??!

      Can you use webmaster tools to show them how these “pages” show up for search engines? And run some searches specifically about the text of the posters, e.g. “Llama Grooming event at Tito’s bar, July 25th 2019”, and show them that this page does not show up at all in the search results.

      1. Kat Maps*

        Thank you for validating me. In a recent report to our BOD I read that they wrote about improving SEO. That was the final straw for me. We have a *super* big event coming up and that’ll be a great chance to actually show how we don’t show up in search engines. Thank you!

  126. Argye*

    So, I’m the person who is contemplating leaving academia. I’ve been a Visiting Assistant Professor at a smallish University for the past 3 years, after being laid off as an Associate Professor (a long, horrible story). I’ve been applying for Assistant Professor jobs for the past 5 years or so, many interviews, one offer that was a complete disaster, that I obviously turned down. The Visiting Assistant Professor job has now dried up. I can stay here and Adjunct (yuck), or find something else. At 52, I have very few options, and my future is keeping up at night a LOT.
    All of that is background.
    I’ve had two phone interviews in the past 2 weeks. One went quite well, and they said I should be expecting a phone call from the Provost, which may mean an offer is forthcoming. It’s an HBCU, which is relevant because they notoriously pay very poorly (being typically underfunded), and so I’m concerned that they can meet my salary needs.
    The second I thought was little short of a disaster. There was a long string of questions from one committee member where it became clear he was looking at someone else’s CV, i.e., “I see you’ve taught Immunology and have 2 graduate students?” Me: “Ummmm. No. I’m a plant biologist at an undergraduate-only institution.”
    Well, they contacted me for a second interview via Skype on monday morning. OK, fine. Until I got to the detail that it’s a *2-hour* long Skype interview, including a Powerpoint presentation and a remote meeting with the Dean. I hate Skype. I look horrible on it (getting my hair cut and colored today, which will help a little). And TWO HOURS! They’re clearly doing this in lieu of an in-person interview.

    Any suggestions on surviving a 2 hour long Skype interview? Can I request a bathroom break halfway through (this is seriously a concern of mine!)? Not looking too vomitous?

    If I get this job, then I have to sell a house, buy a house, move myself and pets the 8 or so hours away to the middle of nowhere in Texas. In 8 weeks. That is also terrifying and making my anxiety spike to horrible levels.

    1. JobHunter*

      I sympathize. I have been searching for an academic position for two years, and have decided to turn to industry as well.

    2. LibbyG*

      Oh, heavens! What a terrible situation! I hope things come together one way or another, in or outside academia, in a way you feel good about.

    3. None the Wiser*

      Fellow plant biologist: may I encourage that your contemplation morph into an actionable plan to get the hell out of academia? Tough times to be in higher education.

  127. AccountantWendy*

    My spouse’s workplace is having “Bring your pet to work day.” He is texting me photos of adorable animal selfie ALL DAY. Also he has summer hours and will get out of work at 2.

    Meanwhile my office smells like fish because I work in a food factory. They recently renovated and moved us to a new location, and apparently it’s clam chowder making day and we’re in just the right spot. We do not have summer hours.

    Who is else is ready to go home but has to make it to 5pm?

    1. Frinkfrink*

      *raises hand*

      The A/C of the building where I work is usually calibrated to the number of students present in it, and as it’s summer that means the student load is down and it’s been freezing in here. Facilities finally rebalanced it…somewhat…and now it’s freezing in the large open areas and 78F in the area where my office is.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I just got an email from my director about “summer” hours (I wasn’t at this employer last summer)… we apparently have the option to leave at noon on Fridays for one month in the summer, but only if you work an extra hour Mon-Thurs to make up for it. This applies to all employees, whether they’re hourly or salary.

      Uh, that’s not a perk. That’s just shifting your hours around!

      1. londonedit*

        This is how summer hours have always worked in every company I’ve worked for! You add an hour to your day Mon-Thurs and then you leave at lunchtime on Friday. Seems normal to me! Yes, it is just ‘shifting your hours around’, but the point is that you get your work done before Friday afternoon and then you get to leave early.

        I’ve only ever worked for one company that let us leave at 4pm every Friday, year-round, and at 1pm the Friday before a holiday weekend. Everywhere else, if they’ve offered summer hours, you have to make the time up earlier in the week.

  128. Unsure How To Feel*

    I’ve had a tough week, a job I was presented as a 6 month contract to hire decided to ‘cut’ me 5 weeks in. What really concerns me is that I’m the 6th person of color they let go for ‘not getting our process’ in 3 weeks, and the 1 White male they released was due to someone reporting him for drinking on the job. This is after they already made allowances for him after he missed 2 days work in our first week, something we were told before the offer that no absences allowed in the first 30 days.

    I’m trying to look on the bright side, that now I’m free to move to another area I’ve been considering. I was very uncomfortable there anyway the past 2 weeks since we got a new training manager who in every team meeting would say ‘to be good at this job you have to be just like me’ she’s a while woman, and I’m not. My biggest issue is with how this big company presents itself as such an inclusive place, but is regularly letting go of people of color for subjective reasons. One of the reasons another was cut was that she was ‘too pessimistic’ despite my White seat-mate doing the same questioning.

    I’ve filled out the form to file an EEOC complaint, but am not sure if it’s worth pursuing. I’ve also considered reaching out to the HR head on linked in, where he frequently posts about diversity & inclusion to let him know what’s happening. But I’m not sure if that would make any impact. I don’t want to invest too much energy in it, but I also want to call out this egregious pattern. Any advice?

    1. WellRed*

      I have no advice, but wanted to offer support and encourage you to pursue it. This is pretty egregious.

      1. Unsure How To Feel*

        Thank you! I’m trying to focus on the bright side about not being stuck in such a place.

    2. LCL*

      Write down everything you can remember about how lousy they are on your home computer. Carry on with your job search. Once you are secure and have had time to analyze what happened and talk to other people who know how to fight these battles, you will have a better idea of how to fight.

      I am not doubting what you post. This is some BS and companies that do this should be exposed. But you have to armor up before you pick up the sword.

      1. Unsure How To Feel*

        Thank you for such great advice! I am going to keep applying and also keep an eye out at what happens to the 2-3 remaining POC left in that department. In my last team meeting, the training manager gave a deadline for a goal, and I’m sure she will use ‘not pacing right’ to cut others. There was no documentation or formal warning, its entirely their subjective opinions about ‘not following the process, and not being a good fit.’

  129. Release the Kraken*

    Any advice on giving notice when you’ve worked somewhere for over a decade? I know the advice is that one ordinarily doesn’t have to give an explanation, but I feel like my boss is going to be shocked. The truth is that I’m leaving because of his crappy management, the toxic environment created by it, constantly walking on eggshells for fear that I’ve committed some slight that will result in my being snapped at or yelled at, his losing faith in me (because I can’t read his mind) and taking away so much of my work that I sit there with nothing to do for half the day, and the feeling that he doesn’t seem to like me very much anymore. It’s been a rough eight months since this all started and it’s killed my confidence in myself and made me dread going to work. I don’t think this situation is salvageable since it’s a small company and he’s the owner/president who is very used to doing things his way. I don’t even get the impression that he wants me around any longer, so it’s possible he’ll be relieved when I quit. I used to be the superstar of the office so it hurts all the more.

    I don’t intend to say any of this. I suspect that, from my boss’ perspective, I’m lucky to still have a job and I’m lucky that he didn’t cut my pay when he took away my responsibilities. I’m paid very, very well so he’ll know that there’s no way I found a job that pays more, or even the same. My commute is under five minutes. I get great annual bonuses and health insurance. So I can’t use any of the typical excuses. I plan to hand him the typical brief letter stating that I’m giving my notice and my last day will be X, but a conversation will have to accompany it. I want to keep it short and sweet and say something like, “I’ve been very unhappy with the transitions around here for some time and decided to take a new job where I can have a fresh start.” I don’t want to leave the door open for a back and forth conversation about this as I’m determined to leave. Is that enough to say? Do I need to be prepared with more?

    Needless to say, I’m terrified about this part. I’ve only ever left one job in my adult life and that was when I relocated to another state so I felt like I had a legitimate “excuse” then. This is so different and scary.

    1. Errol*

      “I’ve been thinking about a change of scenery. I’ve worked here for X years and I just am feeling like I’ve gone as far as I can here and it’s time to move onto something new. I’m really going to miss this place, but it just feels like its time”

      If you don’t want to open that can of worms, don’t hint there is a can of worms so you don’t have any follow up on it.

    2. CatCat*

      You don’t actually owe him an explanation even if he wants to have a lengthy conversation about it. “A new opportunity fell in my lap and I’m excited for a new phase in my career. For my last two weeks, I’m planning to focus on X, Y, and Z to make the transition smooth.” You don’t have to explain yourself. If he prods, “This is what I want to do so I am doing it. Anyway, about X and Y, I was thinking…” Keep refocusing on the work to be done on in the time remaining.

      If he gets interrogaty/overly pushy and gets awkward, LET IT. Just let awkward silence hang in the air. Savor it even while thinking “Fergus needs to get over himself.”

      If he gets abusive and starts yelling at you, you can nip that in the bud. Hold your hand up in a “stop” motion. “I am not going to be yelled at. I want to make this a smooth transition in my remaining time, but it must be professional. I will not tolerate yelling.” And if continues to verbally abuse you. “It sounds like this isn’t going to work out so let’s make today my last day.”

    3. Delta Delta*

      I was in exactly this same boat a few years ago. I crafted several carefully constructed stories so I wouldn’t have to say “it’s so toxic here my hair is falling out, you enormous jerk.” The best one I liked was basically that I felt I had grown as much as I could in the position and that I was looking to step into a different position with different challenges. If your new job is in a different part of the town/city, or has different hours, or “fell into your lap” (you need not tell him it didn’t if you applied for it), you can also use the “I wanted a change” language.

    4. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain*

      “I’m ready for a new challenge/direction in my career and will be leaving effective…” I know you’ve worked there for a while, but you still don’t owe the boss an explanation, and you don’t need a “good enough” excuse to leave a job, especially as it doesn’t sound like it will be well-received or cause him to change. The way not to have a back and forth is to refuse to participate. Boss: “But why are you leaving?!” You: “I’ve considered my options and this is what I have chosen.” Boss: “What will make you stay? You owe me an explanation!” You: “The decision is made. I will be leaving, effective on X date. What would you like me to focus on during the transition out?”

    5. blink14*

      I was in my last job for about 7 years, and there literally was no room to move up – it was a 2 person office managed by a small out of state company, and my boss had been there since it opened in 70s, and will remain until she can no longer work (she’s got to be in early 80s now). It was a horrendous environment, she was incredibly difficult to deal with, I was basically managing the office while she was off on 4 hour lunches, and things had gotten to a point where an outside group we co-hosted events with became concerned about her treatment towards me.

      I had taken the job right before the last recession, so I was well and truly stuck there for 4-5 years, even living in a major city (which also kind of made it worse, a lot of overqualified people desperate for work). The commute was 15 minutes, 20 max, and the hours were on the short, I was salaried, had just tolerable health insurance, and a small amount of PTO, which all made it slightly better to stay instead of taking on temp work or something similar. I looked off and on for about 4 years for something else, the last year more intensely.

      When I took my current job and gave my notice, I said “I have a job offer I can’t refuse” and left it at that, and gave a short resignation letter with my final date. Then my former boss screamed that I hadn’t given two weeks notice (I did, it was exactly 10 business days, over the span of 3 calendar weeks) and I knew I made the right decision. I didn’t owe that company or her anything. The wonderful HR person at the out of state office made sure I got my vacation and sick time payout, and in the process, it turns out I had been shorted vacation time for 2 years, which was in the employee manual that myself nor the maintenance personnel knew about. I did actually submit a complaint to the state Attorney General, and they gave me approval to take it to small claims, but I decided the amount of money I was missing out on wasn’t worth the hassle.

      Be polite, be short in your explanation. All you have to say is you feel that it’s your time to move on, and that’s that.

    6. Neosmom*

      Your boss’s actions them passively discouraging you (pushing you out the door). If you want to leave, start looking and give the standard notice for your role and industry when you are ready. Best of luck to you, RtK.

    7. Release the Kraken*

      Thank you, everyone! I’m feeling much better about this after reading your replies and I’m going to use some of the sample scripts since I think they cut to the chase better than what I came up with. I appreciate the helpful replies!

  130. Errol*

    Could I get some help on wording? I recently interviewed for a job I am really really interested in, but I am not sure how to proceed. At the end of the interview they told me to call them if I haven’t heard anything on Friday and then continue to call every day until I get an answer (weird, right!) I have no intention of calling every day, likely today close to closing time if I don’t hear from them and then when ever they tell me to follow up today (if at all)

    What on earth am I supposed to say if I call today? “Hey, just following up on the next steps?” I mean I’d really like to ask if I got the job, but I get that’s probably not what they meant.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Do you have no other leads? Because I would probably not want to work there if they wanted me to call every day if you haven’t heard anything. An email? Sure. Every day? No.

      1. Errol*

        I do have a few, but this is actually a company I want to get on with and pickings are slim in my region

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          Then call after Friday. And then call on Tuesday. And then call on Wednesday. That’s what they want you to do, and you’re very interested still, so yeah. It’s awkward, but the awkwardness is solely on them.

          1. Errol*

            Yeah I was going to call late today (I’m talking like 4 PM knowing they close at 430 late) and then on Tuesday/Wednesday but I’m still just really not at all sure what I’m supposed to say to them

            1. Anonymous Educator*

              Yes, it’s super awkward, but again that’s because they’re asking you to do something awkward and weird, not because you’re not creative enough to think of a proper script for an improper situation.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I would call Monday though, not Friday. Unless they said call ON Friday if you hadn’t heard anything. It’s hard to tell from your post.

      If there’s no real update. I’d ask if they had any insight into what they’re new timeline might be. Apply that to when you can call again to check in. If they don’t have one, then I’d just flat out ask. “You mentioned at the interview, you wanted me to check back with you every day (say this in a light-heared, joking way), since I don’t want to pester you or interfere with your other work, when’s a good date for me to check back in with you?” and “I’m happy to call, but I can email you if that’s easier on you.”

      Let them walk back on how unreasonable a daily anything is, especially a phone call, but still show them you listened. If they need that much pestering about it, I’d consider that a yellow flag. That’s very strange. And I don’t think I’d want colleagues who needed that much hand-holding from me to get their tasks/deliverables/whatever done.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’d go with something like “I’m just calling to follow up since you said at the interview that I should start calling each day to check up on the process if I didn’t here from you by Friday. Is there any update on the decision timeline?” (pause for their reply – if it’s a vague I don’t know then proceed with) “Thanks! Is there any additional information you’re looking for from me or anything else I can do to help things along?” (nope) “Ok! Would you like me to check back again tomorrow or would you prefer that I wait to hear from you?”

      This is a weird situation, unless the job is one where you would be in turn expected to regularly follow-up with others in this fashion, in which case I suppose this would be a somewhat-reasonable final screening process for the last few candidates to make sure they were hiring someone who was comfortable doing this. The only job I had where I ever did anything like this is when I signed up with a temp agency. I’d make a point of calling and checking in with them regularly so they’d know I was still available to work while between assignments, but that’s a different situation entirely than waiting to hear back after a regular job interview.

  131. Queenie*

    I have an interview later this afternoon!!! and another next week!!!! My first in almost 3 months… 6 months of searching, 108 applications, and 4 interviews total ugh. Any advice? or tips? spending my slow day frantically re-reading all of Alison’s wonderful advice!

    1. merp*

      Nothing I can add to Alison’s interview advice so I’ll just say what I did (which she might cover too!). When you get there a bit early, find a spot (even if it’s your car or a bench outside or something) to just sit and breathe for 5 minutes. It’ll be great, you’re gonna rock it.

    2. J*

      Yay – congrats!

      Tips – breathe. I know it sounds simple but the exercise where you breathe in for a 4 count, hold for 4, out for 4, hold for 4 and repeat REALLY helped me deal with the anxiety as I got ready for interviews.

      Also, remember you are evaluating them as well. I know it’s hard, especially when you really need an offer, but it keeping your head in the space where you’re all professionals looking for a mutual good fit rather than hoping they hire you really does show in how you present.

      And yes, mainline Alison’s advice!

  132. LessNosy*

    Has anyone ever negotiated an early start to healthcare benefits when starting a new job? I’m job searching now and I know that some companies will make you wait X days/months before your health insurance benefits kick in. I’m a type 1 diabetic in the US, so not having insurance isn’t an option for me, and COBRA from my current employer coverage isn’t really financially viable. I’m just curious if anyone’s dealt with this and framed it a certain way, had to give up something in the offer for it, etc? Thanks!!

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Yes, I have. I was leaving a toxic workplace and wanted to make sure I didn’t have gaps in coverage (welcome to the U.S., where we have to worry about such things), so part of agreeing to the job was that they cover me even before my start date. My future boss scrambled with HR to make it happen, and it happened.

    2. J*

      Mine tried their carrier to do it but couldn’t. I think it really depends on the carrier and the plan.

    3. WellRed*

      Type 1 here so I totally get your concern. I think it never hurts to ask but be prepared for a no. Or maybe they can cover the COBRA cost, but I think you’d have to be rockstar type that they really want to hire. The best advice I can offer is make sure you take care of any appts and prescription refills prior to losing coverage to tide you over for that month and keep your fingers crossed you don’t need actual healthcare during that transition period.

      1. Arielle*

        Also Type 1, and yeah, make sure you have stockpiles of insulin, strips, pump supplies, etc. The other thing to know about COBRA is you can apply for it retroactively, so if you did have a healthcare cost during the transition, you could sign up and have it retroactively cover the costs. Obviously this would do nothing to defray the actual cost of COBRA but it’s something to be aware of.

    4. Arielle*

      I’ve never had a job with an insurance waiting period, but I bet you’d have more luck getting them to waive the waiting period than getting you on their insurance before you actually start. Usually benefits are wrapped up with payroll and I suspect most places are not set up to deal with providing insurance to people they aren’t paying yet.

      1. NACSACJACK*

        Last I looked that was 45 days. You need to know and make your first payment within 45 days of your departure date from your old employer. That just covers your first 30 days after old employer. You still need to cover months X+1 thru whenever. Find out from Cobra provider when payment is due and pay it before then.

        1. Flyleaf*

          It’s not 45 days from your last day send in the payment. It’s 60 days from last day to notify them that you are signing up for COBRA, then an additional 45 days from signing up to send in your payment. A total of 105 days. It’s all retroactive, but if you don’t need it you simply don’t send in payment.

    5. Goose Lavel*

      My last job had a 1 month waiting period for the insurance to start. I made my start date the last day of the month and the insurance was effective the next day.

    6. Retail not Retail*

      My current job had a 3 month waiting period. My previous job qualified for medicaid (thank you wv taking the expansion) and I had that the first month.

      I bought a plan on the exchange for the remaining 2 months – if you qualify for subsidies it’s nice. I had a better plan than my work one but without the subsidy nope.

    7. mreasy*

      I negotiated a starting bonus to cover my COBRA expenses during my 3-month waiting period for company benefits.

  133. Sketchy or Illegal?*

    I work at a small non-profit. One of my part-time coworkers was having trouble finding affordable and consistent childcare and told her boss she was looking to leave the position in order to be with her children. Her supervisor decided that he’d take funds from another department (that has some child-related programming) to hire a sitter for her during her work hours so she could remain in the position without any childcare expenses. When I learned about this, I let her supervisor know that this was at the very least sketchy but likely an illegal use of our nonprofit funds.
    Is my inclination, right? I know our executive director and financial manager would not be okay with this arrangement if they knew about it, but I’m not sure how problematic this setup is. I’ve told her supervisor that he needs to solve the problem or at the least make sure our financial manager knows that this arrangement exists, but beyond that, do I have an obligation to level this up? I know no one’s intention was to misappropriate funds, but it sent up all kinds of red flags for me. It’s also further complicated by the fact that this supervisor and I both report to the executive director who is on leave for the next 6 weeks, so there’s no clear chain of command at the moment.

    1. AccountantWendy*

      It’s not a misappropriation of funds to provide benefits to employees, including child care. However, it might be a misappropriation of THOSE funds, or the way it’s being done could be misconduct, so you are right to be concerned about. Other people generally need to be involved when moving money from one budget line item to another, especially if these are programming funds being spent on employee benefits.

      In the absence of the ED, can you reach out to HR or the Treasurer on your board? The board has an ultimate fiduciary responsibility and your work place should (but may not) have a whistle-blower policy that protects you. You say it’s no one intention to misappropriate funds – any maybe they aren’t! But my grandfather once gave me this advice: Never tie your shoe in a watermelon patch. I think it applies here.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I cannot imagine that a non-profit can just take funds earmarked for “child related programming” and give it an employee. I feel like it could lead to losing your non-profit standing if uncovered.

      Also that’s taxable income, she’s going to have to pay taxes on the money being paid to the sitter, it needs to be reported to the IRS in most situations.

      How are they going to explain the funds being paid to Sally Smith through that fund? She’s going to need to give them a W9 and be issued a 1099 for the money she’s taking in as the baby sitter. Does this supervisor just get to print frigging checks!? This has me screaming inside.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Is the money earmarked or actually restricted? Budgets can and do get changed around to respond to the shifting needs of a program. So long as the funds aren’t actually restricted to a particular budget line item, then, sure, the money can be moved around wherever. Contractors can be hired to meet short-term needs for person-power, absolutely.

      The question then is whether the money should be moved. A nonprofit org taking funds to pay for one individual employee’s babysitter? That looks irresponsible and shady, because it’s too attenuated from the program. It’s not a contractor hired for, say, planning the annual convention. It’s someone hired as essentially a personal assistant to an employee. How would you react as a donor if you saw this happening? Doesn’t look like an org that is taking very good care of its donors’ money, to me.

    4. Old Mountain Lady*

      It’s compensation to that employee and should be treated as such. As long as it’s reasonable compensation, there’s nothing wrong with it from a nonprofit tax law perspective.

  134. The Cosmic Avenger*

    OK, quick question: my boss is a VP. A peer of mine suggested that a few of us (roughly the same level, all boss’ direct reports) get a cake for the VP’s birthday. But my peer is not inviting any of their or my direct reports, so it’s just managers.

    Is that weird? It feels weird, but we used to do department-wide birthday celebrations once a month, but then those just petered out.

    1. Susan K*

      Yeah, kind of weird, and has potential to cause resentment if you’re having a birthday celebration with cake for management only.

    2. DAMitsDevon*

      It definitely seems weird, especially if it’s in the office as opposed to somewhere off-site or not during a regular meeting that’s only for management. Also, by not inviting their direct reports, that manager is definitely now not following the office etiquette of gifting down, not up (I mean, it would still be iffy since the manager is planning a celebration for their manager instead of someone even higher up doing it or having those regular department wide celebrations, but it would be less iffy if they could say they were technically gifting down by letting their direct reports have cake too).

    3. beanie gee*

      It seems reasonable to only ask managers to pitch in for the cake, but unreasonable to only invite managers to actually eat the cake. Cake in the office that isn’t available to everyone is important.

    4. The Cosmic Avenger*

      OH, nevermind! That peer of mine emailed the managers asking us to chip in, but we’re inviting the whole department! (It’s not that big, I would comfortably pay for it myself if necessary.)

  135. Hedwig*

    Advice on alleviating survivors guilt after leaving a job where we’re understaffed and I’m the only person qualified for doing a certain task?

    I’m on a four person team, the marauders. We work closely with a more junior team, the Gryffindors, under the same manager. We were originally told that Gryffindors would be promoted to marauders, but this has never happened in 2+ years. Gryffindors either quit or move to other teams, and marauders gradually drop and are never replaced. We work with the same kind of tickets at different steps, and we did Gryffindor work ourselves before the team was established. The Gryffindors are all smart and capable, but haven’t been trained enough to do our work.

    My coworker James used to do a special kind of ticket for a difficult account. James gave generous notice at the beginning of the year, and I was selected to be trained in these special tickets. It’s challenging, and another marauder could probably handle it, but not a Gryffindor.

    Now I’m job searching, James is still leaving, and we’ve hit a hiring freeze, so no one is coming in to replace James or any Gryffindors who leave. I’m the only person trained in these special tickets. If I bail with no regrets and a middle finger, the Marauders will be down to just Remus and Sirius, and one of them will have to take on the special tickets. Remus has commented to me that he had earlier opportunities to train on them and turned them down, saying he absolutely doesn’t want to handle tickets that challenging.

    I know it’s not my problem, but what can I do to make the future transition easier? I’m documenting heavily and trying to implement efficiencies that’ll make the tickets less painful, but I can only do so much. Do I give more notice?

    1. Havarti*

      The problem with giving more notice is it can backfire. In James’ case, it seems to have worked out fine so far as he’s still there apparently. If you’ve documented as much as you can, I think you’ve done enough. Is James helping with any of the documentation given he apparently trained you? Remus not wanting to take on the challenging tickets isn’t your problem. What if Sirius doesn’t want them either? Are you going to stay on while James gets to bail and try to beat Remus into learning? Your company doesn’t sound like they’re doing a good job managing staff if the Gryffindors never got promoted, the Marauders never got replaced and now there’s a hiring freeze.

    2. Anne (with an “e”)*

      No advice, but do you realize that in this scenario you’ve made yourself out to be Peter, not Hedwig? Now, granted, Peter was guilty. However, I don’t think *you* will have anything to be guilty for. *You* will not be betraying anyone, nor causing anyone to die. You will not be going over to the dark side. You are not leaving behind children to fight an adult Wizarding war. When you leave I truly doubt that *you* will go work for Death Eaters, Inc. and I am also skeptical that you will help resurrect He Who Shall Not Be Named. IOW, there will absolutely be no need to be guilty about anything. The Gryfindors are adults who will survive. If your current company (Hogwarts) is reasonable, it will find/recruit/ train new Marauders.

  136. Delphine*

    I’m a naturally private person; I don’t tend to share what’s going on in my life too freely, even with people I call friends, and at the office, there’s an even stricter division between my work life and my personal life. I believe I’m a bit of an outlier in my office and in my social group–many people I know make friends with their coworkers. And I know a fair amount about the people I work with…things like a coworker’s struggle with insomnia, or a person moving in with their partner, or someone having to hold an intervention for their parent. These aren’t things that people go in-depth about, but you hear about it over lunch or in passing conversation. I’ve never felt like I was being given too much information about my coworkers, just that I was getting to know them better. But I still share…nothing. For example, a family member has been struggling with serious mental illness for about a year now and it’s taken a huge toll on me, but no one at work knows that anything is different.

    I don’t feel pressured to share about myself at all, but even when I want to share something I pull back because I feel it blurs professional boundaries. I’ve always thought it’s because the things going on in my life are a little heavy and not something to burden coworkers or friends with….and I still believe that. But I am wondering if my very strict line is stricter than average. When people interact, they share things! It seems normal to me…until I want to do it.

    Do you share your stories from your personal life with your coworkers?

    1. coffee cup*

      Yes, I do, but only the ones I like! I mean, I like most of them, but I’ll only talk about parts of my life if it’s someone I am fond of or enjoy talking to properly. There are a few really lovely people in my workplace and I’m happy to talk about various things to them, but I wouldn’t go into loads of personal detail in the office, like I barely talk about who I’m dating, if I ever am. I think it’s normal and makes the day pass in a nicer way, but it’s also normal NOT to share info and if you don’t feel comfortable doing it, you shouldn’t have to! We’re all different.

    2. Errol*

      Yes an no. I tell people pieces of personal information without actually getting personal. So sometimes I talk about a movie I saw recently, or a dish I cooked. Or some small impersonal tidbit that makes people feel like they’re connecting without revealing anything.
      “Mr Errol and I went to the farmers market this weekend, I still can’t get over how big some of the vegetables get!”

      I too like the division of personal and professional. I’ve gone through 2 deaths (a sudden one, and a suicide) in a 6 week period where I don’t think I said a word to anyone I work with about it. I like going to work and not having to face what’s going on in my personal life. I don’t often mind when people get personal (I do when it’s too personal or all the time) but I am not one to offer that information myself

    3. Susan K*

      I am also a private person and I share very little information about myself at work or on social media. I occasionally share tidbits that aren’t too personal just to avoid seeming excessively secretive, like that my sister just got engaged or I bought a new TV. I think that most people don’t really notice when others don’t share much, because most people are more focused on themselves. One problem I’ve found with being private is that, when people don’t know much about you, they will latch onto any small thing they find out about you, associate it with you, and want to talk about it with you all the time. If the only thing they know about you is that you like sushi, they will think of you as the lady who loves sushi and anytime anyone mentions sushi, they will say, “Oh, you should ask Delphine about that — she’s a sushi expert!”

    4. L.S. Cooper*

      I tend to only share happy anecdotes, or things related to whatever a coworker has already shared. This isn’t because I’m worried about boundaries, but because most of what I do with my life is a tad too nerdy for coworkers. Talking about GOT is fairly normal, standard nerdiness; getting up at 5am to get to a convention in time to watch a panel put on by people who play Dungeons and Dragons is not.

      So, coworkers get chit-chat about food and vacations, I coo over their kids, and I acknowledge I will probably not be as close with them as many of them are with each other. It’d bother me if I planned to stay here long term, but I’m actively working on a transition into the generally far nerdier realm of software development, so I’m fine sticking it out.

      I don’t share about most medical things, though. I think I mentioned briefly that my mother is ill to some of them, but I only bring it up as an explanation for why I’m still living with my parents, and don’t go into details. It’s not that I don’t want them knowing, it’s mostly that I don’t want their pity, which is the fastest way to make me completely fall apart. I’ve mentioned things that are more actively visible, like when I was limping around for a few weeks after a toe surgery, or when I’d be out for longer than usual at the dentist due to a filling.

      I think everyone has their boundaries, and yours sound totally reasonable. But, considering I fall along the same lines, maybe I’m a bad judge! :)

    5. Lemon Zinger*

      I TRY to keep my personal life out of work, but I work in a chatty environment and am good at being chatty. Usually I’ll just share small anecdotes where they make sense, but I don’t discuss things that upset me. For example, I have lost a few family members in the time I’ve worked here– and I just said “My grandmother passed away” to my boss (so she knew I was using bereavement leave for an approved deceased family member) and to my coworkers “A relative passed away.”

      I did once make the mistake of sharing my frustration with a sibling for their racist views. That got me a lot of uncomfortable looks and I immediately apologized and said I shouldn’t have discussed it.

      This stuff is hard. I wish I had enough self-control to completely divorce work and personal life, but that would probably make me look more stiff and uptight than I already do!

  137. StartupNewbie*

    I’m currently working on a temp contract at a startup, with the understanding that I’ll be made permanent staff at the end of 5 months. I knew switching to a start up would be a pretty big pay cut. I’m 3 months into my 5 month temp contract and it’s pretty clear that the projects I’m working on won’t have clear results until a month or two after my current contract ends. So broadly, I guess my question is, does anyone have advice on how to handle salary negotiations / performance review when the impact of my work is still pretty unclear?

  138. Igotnothing*

    My oldest son is the only engineer at a manufacturing plant. He’s been there for almost a year, it’s his first job out of college and he has taken no days off. He is struggling with mandatory 11 hour days, zero work/life balance and is exhausted, depressed and highly anxious. All my work experience is in the Higher Ed. environment so I have no idea how to support or advise when he asks. Is a year too soon for him to be looking for another job? Suggestions for where he could go ask for advice or help?

    1. Clever Name*

      It’s pretty unlikely a job like that is going to shift to something more pleasant. I’d say it’s time to start looking for a new role.

    2. Havarti*

      Ask for advice or help with what? Finding a new job or coping with the nightmare of his current one? When you’re fresh out of school, there’s a little more leeway in regards to job hopping I think. One or two quick moves early on in your career won’t ruin you. It’s only if you have a pattern of constantly hopping. Given his circumstances, one year is good enough. He has this internet stranger’s permission to find a new job ASAP.

    3. ArtK*

      Help him find a new job. This one sounds brutal and something that will slowly destroy him. Frankly, I’d also be looking for major safety violations and be ready to report them. Mandatory 11 hour days are a proxy for all sorts of stupidity.

    4. LCL*

      Help your son polish his resume. My engineer boyfriend’s first two jobs out of college were like this. Especially the second one. He worked each about a year. Actual experience on the production floor can be more valuable than a master’s degree for engineers, depending on the field. He has lots of options, he’s just too worn out to see them. There are plenty of professional organizations for engineers.

  139. merp*

    I think I’ve seen this covered before in letters but here goes: I’ve been just completely exhausted lately, and the working theory is that it’s related to the antidepressant I take. I’ve also just started a new job so they’ve effectively only met the exhausted, could-take-a-nap-at-any-time version of me. How much to share with my manager, if anything? I’m working on solutions but I worry it’s been noticeable. Also don’t want to overshare.

    1. WellRed*

      Do not share. You are new, it’s normal to be exhausted any way and it may not be as noticeable as you think. But, since they have no other information about you, don’t be known as the new person who takes an antidepressant. There’s no shame in that, but there is stigma.

      1. merp*

        Oh I def wouldn’t tell them the type of medication or anything, but I wondered if it would be wise at all give a vague heads up that I know about it if they’ve noticed my tiredness. But thanks, that’s helpful.

    2. Havarti*

      If you must say something, stick to a brief thing like a side effect of your medication is affecting you but you’re working to get it sorted out. Don’t mention what type of meds or anything. And keep a sharp eye on the quality of your work. If you’re on time and doing good work, your manager may not care how rough you look.

      1. merp*

        I wish it were about how I look, haha. My worry is that I’m missing details or forgetting things. But also I’m new so maybe that’s normal.

        1. ..Kat..*

          Taking lots of notes and making lists to follow may help with some of this. Good luck.

    3. Lemon Zinger*

      You’re new. You aren’t in a position to draw attention to your tiredness. If it becomes a problem, your manager will say something.

      If you’d been there for a year, then maybe it would make sense to say “Hey Linda, just wanted to let you know that I’m trying a new medication and one of the side effects is sleepiness. I’m managing as best I can but wanted to explain.”

  140. Bird Brain*

    After lots of interviewing I’ve finally received an offer — yay!!! One thing I’m not sure about is salary negotiation. During the initial call to tell me the details, the recruiter told me that the first offer they give is the best one, and that they don’t do negotiations because they try and stay competitive with the market. I’m not sure if they said that as a scare tactic or not to dissuade me from negotiating. The last thing I’d want is to have the offer revoked if I tried negotiating! What do y’all think? For context, I’m a software engineer so I think the tech arena does tend to be a little more…nuanced.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      They’re not going to rescind the offer if you try to negotiate. If they do, that’s is a MAJOR red flag. That said, it’s pretty standard that if you ask for a higher salary, the company is well within its rights to say “No, we can’t do that. This is the offer.” In your case, it just sounds as if they did that pre-emptively.

      That said, base salary isn’t the only thing you can negotiate for. Vacation days? Other benefits? Stock options?

    3. boredatwork*

      I had a recruiter tell me the same thing – I had given him a minimum number I’d need to switch jobs, the company met that number, but I still shot for more. What’s 5K between friends?

      The recruiter was very distraught I’d ask for more, since apparently my minimum was their maximum. They refused, saying that the first offer was the best offer, I ended up accepting. They didn’t pull the offer and three years later no one has mentioned me trying to negotiate for more. I’m now making 10K higher than my original base, so clearly there were no grudges.

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        The recruiter was very distraught I’d ask for more, since apparently my minimum was their maximum. They refused, saying that the first offer was the best offer, I ended up accepting.

        This has been my experience as well. I’ve gotten that reaction in the past when asking for more, but it doesn’t hurt to try. If they say “No, that’s the most we can do,” then that’s the most they can do. But no reasonable place will rescind the offer just because you ask for more (unless it’s a ridiculous amount more).

        1. boredatwork*

          It was an external recruiter making 40% of my base, if I accepted, I was not at all afraid to make him squirm.

  141. coffee cup*

    I am really fed up about work at the moment and don’t really know what to do. I’ve been at my job for too long and I’m so bored by it. I don’t enjoy working for them any more and I feel underused and not challenged (not much to do about that, it’s the job I have). I want to leave but there aren’t any suitable jobs and hardly ever seem to be. I’ve no idea how to even work out what I want to do. I feel I could use parts of my skills to apply for slightly different roles, and so increase the chances I can get something new (I’m not too fussed about staying in the same profession exactly), but I don’t really know how to do that. Worried I will apply for stuff I’m not qualified enough for, or that I can’t tell if I AM qualified for it. If that even makes sense. I’m desperate for something new, but I’m stuck, and it’s getting me down a lot.

    I applied for a job in April and got an interview and was SO close to getting it, except not really because they had already lined up someone for the position and were really going through the motions. Waste of my time, but the interviewer called me to tell me I didn’t get it and emphasise how great they thought I was and how I should contact her if anything else comes up at that company in the future. Which was a good confidence boost, but it might be ages till that happens, and in the meantime I am still stuck in my current job. The people are lovely in general and the actual place isn’t terrible but all the little things I don’t like about it are adding up and getting worse, and I’ve just outgrown it. I can’t tell anyone about it so I’m so frustrated. I don’t know whether to just keep looking and hope something comes up soon, or try to take a course (in what?! No idea) to expand my skills, or… I really don’t know. I feel so down about it and can’t see a way forward because of that, I think. Any advice welcome.

    1. WellRed*

      Keep looking, it never hurts to look. If you feel reasonably qualified for a job, but don’t match all the qualifications, apply! It doesn’t need to be a perfect fit and other things factor in to hiring.

    2. Ron McDon*

      I completely sympathise! I’ve been with my employer 10 years and go through phases of feeling exactly like you describe.

      I’ve been looking for a new job – with varying levels of seriousness – for at least the last 5 years. I too don’t really know what I want to go into, my current workplace has lots of marks in its favour in terms of hours, holiday and flexibility, I just really hate my job sometimes!

      I wonder if it would be worth meeting with a career counsellor, someone who can take a fresh look at your skills and see where else might be a good fit?

      The fact that the other company you applied to liked you so much is really encouraging- companies don’t go out of their way to say things like that if they don’t mean it!

      I think it’s worth me saying that about two years ago I felt exactly like you, but some things have changed at work since then to make things better, so you might find you come out the other side of this bad patch feeling more positive.

      Keep looking, and also let people in your network (that you can trust!) know you’re looking – a few of my past jobs have come through recommendation.

  142. Childfree Hardcore*

    Removed. In recent posts you’ve been a child hater, a parent, a teacher, a nail technician, a man, a woman, and much more. I can see you doing this and you need to stop.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I don’t know, Alison… it feels like you’re discriminating by refusing to allow posts from nonbinary job hoppers who hate their own children… ;-)

  143. Ra94*

    So this is a work question for someone else rather than myself, and I’m wondering how to best support him or, more general, how other people have gotten through situations like his.
    This friend- let’s call him B- has struggled with bouts of depression since I met him in college. He has a lot of self-loathing, and that, combined with a lot of rough events in the past years, from family trouble to abusive partners to sexual harassment, has really gotten him down.
    Last year, B went into crisis, tried to kill himself, and had to leave work for half a year. With the context above, it’s obviously reductive to say it was *all* caused by work- but I really think his job played a huge role in sparking his crisis. He works in the social sector, which is underfunded and overstretched in general, and his team is in one of the most struggling areas of the whole country. He sees suffering children and families every day, and feels powerless to help; sometimes the problems are unsolvable, sometimes he’s so overextended that he has to choose between helping one child or another, and sometimes his manager forces him to focus on paperwork instead of action. There is basically no support in his workplace, and the focus is purely on crunching numbers (visiting enough children per week, filing the required lengthy reports). He works long, long hours- regular all-nighters- and often is forced to choose between going home when he’s ‘meant’ to or going to see a kid in crisis. About half of the team he started out have left and changed careers; a solid half of his remaining colleagues have had to take time off to deal with mental or physical health issues.
    Basically, I can’t imagine anyone tolerating this environment without losing it- much less sensitive, empathetic B, who already has a tendency to assume everything is his fault. His time off has been transformative for him- starting a new medication, traveling, and therapy have really given him a new lease and outlook on life. And now it’s time for him to go back to work- and he’s scared, and I’m scared, too.
    I have repeatedly told him that there are other jobs, that he can make a difference without sacrificing his sanity, and that he doesn’t have to feel trapped in this career. I think B understands, but still wants to ‘give it another go’ because he loves the kids and his colleagues so much, and because he needs to stick out a few months at least to reach a particular professional qualification that would help him in any job.
    So for the foreseeable future, he’s going back, and I’m wondering if there’s anything I can tell him or send him to help him keep a sense of “this is a crazy place and I’m doing my best” and not let him slip back into “I’m an awful person”. Relevant AAM posts, personal stories, etc would be appreciated! Obviously, I’m going to be there for him as a friend, but I’m looking for any specific sanity-saving tips he can use to remind himself that no matter how bad it gets, he’s not the problem.

    1. Havarti*

      If he insists on going back for a few more months to get a professional qualification, he needs to have an end date firmly in mind. This is the goal he will work towards. Plan a party when he finishes. Regarding the kids in crisis, he cannot save them all. He needs to put his oxygen mask on first. If he slips back into the old habits of pulling all-nighters and not going home, he is going to be right back where he started. So he needs an end time where he leaves work and goes home and hopefully doesn’t look at phone or email until he arrives to work the following day. Is his home a safe, comfy, relaxing place? He needs to mentally detach a bit. Which sounds awful where kids are concerned but your friend nearly killed himself. He can meditate for 5 minutes and chant “this a crazy place and I’m doing my best. I’m NOT an awful person” over and over again. You can lend him an ear. Maybe plan some distracting activities. He can check out Captain Awkward’s archives – she had a great bit about working while depressed that may be useful regarding self-care: https://captainawkward.com/2013/02/16/450-how-to-tighten-up-your-game-at-work-when-youre-depressed/
      Good luck!

      1. Ra94*

        Thank you, this is super helpful and exactly the kind of advice I was looking for! Making ‘home’ a nice space to come back to is actually one of the strategies he’s already come up with- before, he was living in a big shared house where the landlord kept moving people in and out and he didn’t know a soul and was too shy to even go make dinner while someone else was in the kitchen. This time, he’s going to up his budget and focus on ensuring he likes and clicks with the roommates, so that home is a nice, welcoming place with friendly faces. And I love the idea of the chant, I think that’s genuinely what he needs sometimes.

      2. Social services lurker*

        Long time lurker here. I second the oxygen mask and firm boundaries between work and home. Remember the system is failing the families not you! If your job is say…. helping people get signed up for food stamps stick to your small piece of the system. Be up front with clients about what you can do for them and what you can’t (ie I’m going to sign you up for SNAP. Housing questions should be directed to fergus). You can’t be all things to all people. Work on triaging the cases where you can and flag safety issues for higher ups. Remember your clients are much much more resourceful than you give them credit for, and they will find a way to get their needs met!

  144. Snarky Librarian*

    Hi AAM community, I need help with references! I’m a public librarian and my organization doesn’t provide references, they just verify employment. So none of my managers, mentors or co-workers can ever provide a reference for me. Yet all library job applications I see require at least 3 references. All of my library experience has been here, I only have one library job I could list outside my current job with a manager that could be a potential reference, but it was 10 years ago…

    Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated!

    1. irene adler*

      Can co-workers give a personal reference- and be contacted at home for their reference? Might be a little dicey because doing this must be kept from management.

      What about volunteer work-church, community, kid’s school, neighbors, HOA? Did you work with anyone who could talk about your work habits or some aspect of interacting with you?

      Use the reference from 10 years ago if you need to fill in 3 refs. Don’t let a lack of refs be the reason you don’t apply to a position. Might make sure the contact info is current and the ref is aware they’ve been put down as your ref. NO surprises.

      How about co-workers from the job 10 years ago?

      Another thought: Is there a way to withhold refs information until after you’ve interviewed? Then, when they ask, you can explain your situation (i.e. reference policy at current job, or less than 3 refs, older refs, etc.).

      1. Snarky Librarian*

        Good advice Irene! All the applications I’ve seen so far have asked for 3-5 references up front during the application process. Getting references from co-workers might be a good workaround.

        Merp, I think it’s just local government’s way of getting around any potential fallout in case someone gave a bad reference. I’ve seen plenty of policies that seem designed more to avoid a lawsuit than help anyone!

    2. merp*

      This isn’t helpful but just, what on earth is the point of this policy? I’ve never heard of something like it.

    3. Tomato Frog*

      Have you actually asked any of them if they’ll provide a reference and been told no? I think it’s pretty common for people to ignore these rules in practice.

    4. Steggy Saurus*

      Any chance you’ve served on local or national committees in ALA, PLA, or the like? The last job I applied for I used the chair of a committee I’d served on as a reference.

  145. Pregnant and Want Promotion*

    I’ve been a lurker for a while but this is my first time posting.

    I’m 12 weeks pregnant with my first child. I haven’t yet told my employer. I am wanting to wait to inform them because my manager has told me he told the CEO I should be promoted. Promotions typically happen around July 1. I don’t want to give my manager any reason not to give me the promotion (I know, legally, that shouldn’t be allowed to happen, but it would not shock me for him to find a way). I’m fortunate my symptoms haven’t been too bad.

    We just won a new piece of business (I work in advertising) that I want to work on, and my manager feels I am the perfect fit. It culminates with some events in February, which is during my planned maternity leave. The “responsible” side of me is like “I should say something about me being out”. But the other side is like “hell no, because then he definitely won’t give the account to me.” Am I right to keep quiet for a few more weeks, at least? If nothing happens on the promotion front in the next month or so, I’m going to have to say something because I won’t be able to hide it.

    1. boredatwork*

      I 100% do not blame you for keeping the pregnancy a secret. I’m currently 17 weeks, and people are still shocked when I tell them. I feel like your reward for surviving the first trimester without needing any “special treatment” is you get to announce the pregnancy when you’re ready.

      Take the account, wait until you know about the promotion, you won’t be gone that long on maternity leave in the grand scheme of things!

    2. coffee cup*

      Yeah, do it. I think having your foot in the door there is a good idea. As you say, legally they shouldn’t not promote you, but we all know there’s no guarantee, unfortunately.

      1. Samwise*

        Yes. I did exactly this when I was a few months pregnant. Got the promotion signed and sealed, then had another meeting to inform about needing maternity leave.

    3. Erin*

      It’s definitely your call as to when to say anything – I am currently 20 weeks pregnant with my first and was in the middle of a long hiring process for most of my pregnancy. I got the official offer 4 weeks ago, accepted it, and then disclosed. All has gone well since then. One note from my own experience (since I also worried that my physical condition would make the pregnancy obvious and force my hand before I was ready to disclose) – it is still not obvious to others that I am pregnant. I thought for sure I would be obviously showing at 20 weeks but I’m not, especially in certain clothes. Of course everyone is different, but I just thought I’d mention that you may have more time than you are thinking you’ll have before your appearance forces you to disclose. Good luck!

  146. Venting*

    I am totally just venting. And this is totally a me problem. (That I mostly resolve by putting in headphones. But I’m feeling extra cranky today.)

    But.

    The person who sits across from me crunches on popcorn ALL DAY. They talk while chewing it. And just tilt the giant economy sized back into their mouth like it’s a cup. Our cube walls are pretty short so I can see the whole thing. Now, I do this at home – gimme a bag of sweet n spicy Doritos and I go full “animals attack” on it. I get it. But, I don’t know, maybe don’t do that at work?

    1. Havarti*

      I’m picturing someone unhinging their jaws like a snake and funneling the popcorn straight in. *shudders*

  147. HALP!*

    I’m in panic mode right now and could use some advice. I was given a clunky promotion about six months ago, lots of new responsibilities (with promises of training) and a small pay increase. One of my new responsibilities was managing the budget for a major part of our company (I have never done this before and have never been trained, have no type of Finance/Accounting degree, and I was promised help and training). I did the budget to the best of my ability, but I was out of my element and the people who had been volunteered to train me could only do very very minimal training because they are also extremely overworked.

    I assumed that Finance would be double, triple checking my work since it was my first time… our budget was finalized by the board two months ago and budgets have already been shared out with all relevant stakeholders. It was just brought to my attention yesterday that there was a glitch in the spreadsheet I submitted to Finance, so all the individual cells were correct but the sum function was wrong for one large $ category. It showed a number that is less than 1/4 MIL what we need in this category and that is the number that was used for the final budget.

    I feel awful, and upset, and I know this is going to make me look really bad but I also feel frustrated that the support was not provided that I needed, and that trained professionals were not checking through my fledgling work. There is a lot of blame shifting at my company, and I need to find a way to talk about this where I can take responsibility but also express that I was not supported properly without throwing anyone under the bus.

    I don’t know what to do. Does anyone have advice/success stories for times they dropped the ball majorly but it was due to being overworked and undersupported?

    1. London Calling*

      Well it was not due to overwork/undersupport but I’ll tell you the story I’ve told a lot of people – about the time I was working traders’ back office in a bank and paid £ 50 million pounds to the wrong part of a mega-large company – I paid it to Ltd and it should have been Inc sort of error. Over a long weekend. When the receiving company A was waiting for the money to lend to B, who in turn would be lending it to C…but I’m sure you get the picture. When he got the overdraft and late charges from all the counterparties my normally laid back to the point of horizontal manager told me very quietly but in no uncertain terms that I had better NOT do that again.

    2. Havarti*

      Personally I’m horrified your company dropped the ball by setting someone new to do a budget and then not double-checking it before releasing it. Where was your boss in all of this? Did you receive any guidance from them? You should probably be worried about getting thrown under the bus yourself if your boss isn’t the reasonable sort. Honestly, I’d be looking for a new job if this is how they function.

      1. London Calling*

        Particularly as it was a budget.

        *There is a lot of blame shifting at my company*

        Hm. I don’t want to worry you but I’ve worked for one of those and if they had put into work the energy they spent looking for somone to blame every time they’d have been leaders in their field. WHY wasn’t your work checked? that might be a useful question to ask. You’re new and like you I’d assume that something as important as budget calculations would be double and treble checked.

  148. Admin Lifer*

    Question about references and job hunting. I’ve been offered two positions (yay!) but neither of them asked for references. They’re both Executive Assistant positions requiring 8+ years of experience and also requiring a more intensive background check than is common (think US Secret Clearance). Has anyone else encountered this? I know they’ve checked my LinkedIn page but I have no idea if they contacted any of my connections.

    They’re both highly recommended companies that pay at or well above the market rate for these positions.

    1. Admin of Sys*

      I’ve been told by a few folks in jobs that required clearance that they didn’t bother with references because part of the background check involved interviewing previous employers and friends and relatives, so why bother getting the list of the 3 specific people that’d only give good feedback, when they were going to talk to everyone anyway.

  149. CR*

    I know this might not be seen in a sea of comments, but I had an interview yesterday for a much needed and wanted job and I left feeling very negative about it. First, although we covered a lot of topics and I talked a lot, it didn’t last very long (35 mins tops). Second, I feel like I didn’t have a chance to talk about my skills or why I want this job. It was mostly behavioural questions about negative things – when I’ve felt frustrated, when I’ve made mistakes, things I’ve disliked about past jobs. I feel like in trying to answer these I didn’t come off very well because of the focus on the negative! Of course I tried to present each example as a learning opportunity and tried to explain how I’ve improved, but I don’t know if I did a good job. It was hard and I feel very discouraged.

    1. MoopySwarpet*

      That’s frustrating. It sounds to me like you did fine with what you were given to work with. If they just want to focus on the negative, maybe it’s better to know that now instead of finding out during the first month of the job. You could mention why you’re interested in the job and some of that in your follow up/thank you email to them. If you’re still interested, that is.

      I always ask what people liked about their last position and/or company. I think it’s a lot more telling how someone answers when it’s presented that way than the reverse. Plus, I don’t want to think about my employees bad mouthing our company to their next company. If a candidate is still determined to be super negative, that tells me something about their personality. I had one person tell me “Nothing, it’s a horrible place. [insert some general bad mouthing].” This was a very well known company with quality product. I get it, you’re miserable there, but your slouchy, grouchy, frowny self is going to have to pull together a little cheer (or at least neutrality) if you want to get out.

    2. Krickets*

      Hi CR, I had a similar experience with an interview last week (with technical difficulties on their end). It’s rough and I empathize with you. Did you send a thank you note to the interviewers? You could emphasize something from the interview and throw in a line connecting why your past experience would be relevant for the role or serve it well.

      I wish you luck in your job search!

  150. Apples*

    Looking for advice on formatting a resume for software development jobs when I’ve only had one relevant job. As background, I currently develop tax software where I’m responsible for the calculations, print, input, and electronic filing for my assigned states typically being the primary developer for 3-5 states.

    My questions are:

    1. What resume sections do you have or want applicants to have for front end developer jobs?

    2. Since I have no other development work should I only list my current job or previous non-development jobs (mainly retail)?

    3. What level of proficiency should I have in a programming language to list it on my resume? For my current job, I had on the job training to learn the coding aspect so I can code but don’t know what programming language I’m actually using to do so. I’ve been learning the basics of some languages but haven’t applied them yet.

    1. Apples*

      Forgot to add I’ve been at my current job about five and a half years and it’s my first post-college job

    2. Gumby*

      Well, you should definitely learn what language you are currently using! It’s useful info because then you can find out what other languages are similar (thus you should be able to pick them up quickly – something you should mention in interviews!).

      1. Apples*

        I don’t know that anyone at my company knows what language it is. I’ve asked a few people before out of curiosity, both managers and co-workers, but they were either brought on the same way I was or were never an analyst and never learned the language.

        I use a lot of if/else statements, while poops, temporary variables, sets, and occasionally returns so it reminds me of some aspects of Python and Java but the syntax is slightly different.

  151. Blossom*

    Just wanted to say thank you to the commenter Koala dreams, who recommended earplugs in the “tools that help you focus” thread last week. I bought some cheap silicone earplugs, and they’ve been great! They don’t cut out all sound, which is good as I need to hear people trying to talk to me, but they do muffle the shrieks and guffaws that I find so distracting in my chatty office. I don’t wear them all day, just slip them in when things get loud. Haven’t had any negative comments yet – though the first time someone did come up to talk to me, I didn’t realise he was actually addressing me as he sounded further away than he was. He said “oh you’ve got your headphones in”, which I took to mean that my earplugs have successfully masqueraded as a more socially acceptable device.

  152. Youth*

    Hey guys,

    Long time no see! I haven’t posted here for around eight weeks because I’ve been busy at my wonderful new job.

    When I decided to leave my old job, I was worried about finding a place with similar pay, flexibility, and a celebratory culture (I loved the parties at the old place) while getting work I’d enjoy more. I took this job at the same pay, but my understanding was that I wouldn’t have as much flexibility, and I was certain there wouldn’t be as much celebrating. I decided it was worth it for better work and a change.

    Long story short, this job has way better flexibility. We all work from home one day a week, and I’ve been told that even my given PTO is flexible depending on my needs. I love the people I work with and the work that I do. And there are still lots of parties! Best of all, everyone leaves by 5:30, and I’m being encouraged not to work overtime. (A big issue at my last job!)

    It took me 13 months of casual searching plus 8 months of intense searching to get hired here. I was beginning to doubt my skill levels and abilities since I wasn’t getting much interest. Guess it was just a matter of finding the perfect fit.

    1. coffee cup*

      Congrats! That’s great. Also it’s encouraging for me to hear that it took you that long to find. Only because I worry I’ll never find anything, but I’m hoping it’s a similar story, that I just have to wait for the perfect fit.

  153. AudreyParker*

    I posted about this pretty late in the AAM day last week so thought I’d try again:
    Any advice on how to be more mercenary or “it’s just business” in the job hunt? I’ve been looking for a very long time, and at this point am in “beggars can’t be choosers” stage. One issue is that I feel responsible for staying if I get a job, so I’ve thus far only applied to jobs that sound like somewhere I’d stay for a couple of years — I’m (hyper?)aware that a lot of time and money goes into onboarding, and I hate to knowingly have someone waste that on me if I signed on somewhere and kept looking for a better fit (more money or relocation elsewhere). My previous experience has primarily been temp-to-perm and that’s how it’s always played out: temp a little while, agree to stay because I haven’t found anything else, get stuck for years until I get laid off. I’m trying not to keep up that pattern of jobs I don’t like, and also don’t want to burn bridges by leaving 6 weeks after being hired or something.

    I’m trying temp agencies but it has been hard to get traction. Similarly there I’m also avoiding temp-to-perm because I don’t want someone to pay a fee for me and then have me leave a few months in. But even getting purely temp roles has been difficult.

    I’m also struggling with having to write endless cover letters for all of these things. I despise cover letters even for jobs that sound interesting: they always sound goofy to me, and I can never re-use them because everything I apply to is different, so they’re a huge time & energy suck for me. For jobs that I’m not even that interested in beyond a paycheck, and which are lower level than I would usually target, I’m just getting total brain freeze and then not applying.

    This is obviously an untenable situation, so appreciate any suggestions!

    1. Temperance*

      You need to think about what’s best for *you*, what jobs are best for *you*, and not “am i the maximum value to the company”. Seriously, don’t avoid temp-to-perm because, well, they aren’t giving you the same courtesy, to be frank. They’re hiring as temps, not full-time workers, and with that comes the uncertainty of you being able to go elsewhere.

    2. CR*

      You really, really, really need to get out of the mindset that you don’t want to waste the company’s money or time. That is the company’s concern, not yours.

  154. Book Badger, Attorney-at-Claw*

    This is a question I sent in several months ago so I think it’s okay to post here:

    My boss has a favoritism problem with interns, and occasionally he’s tried to draw me into it. Like, “Gosh, Geraldine is so bad at X, she’ll never be a good llama herder,” or, “I like Alice, she’s so good at Y.” And then he says something like, “Have you noticed that, too?” In most cases I have not noticed it, and in some cases it’s the complete opposite (I think Alice is terrible at Y).

    I’ve tried to be neutral about it (he says Geraldine is bad at X and I say, “Well, I think she’s very good at Z”). This is unlikely to be the end of it, even though Geraldine is leaving today, because he’ll likely do it with the next batch of interns and the next. Are there other steps I should take? It’s my first job and I’ve only been here six months, so I can’t tell if he’s genuinely wanting my opinion or if he wants confirmation of his favoritism, or how to avoid doing that if it’s the latter.

    1. Finally Back In A 'Proper Job'*

      I think all you can do is be honest and fair each time:
      – He says Sansa is good at X (and you agree), then verbally agree with him
      – He says Sansa is good at X (and you disagree), then either nod along or, if you feel you have the standing, gently point out “Well she did make that error on X last week so I’d like to see how she responds to the feedback on that before I make a judgement”
      – He says Arya is bad at Y (and you agree), either change the subject or turn it around with something like ‘let’s feed that back to her and see how we can support her with that moving forward’
      – He says Arya is bad at Y (and you disagree), say “Oh actually I find her to be really good/thorough/skilled at that like last week when she…”

    2. Me*

      Can you say something like “I think they’re new, learning and all have different strengths and weaknesses.” Or leave off the last bit if you think that opens the door to debate what those strengths and weaknesses are.

  155. QueenB*

    Please help! I just graduated and I just got offered a job, Job A. I already have and offer from Job B but that wouldn’t start until October and frankly it isn’t what I want to do. The problem is I’m a finalist for Job C, which, I think I want more than Job A which seems to have long hours and high stress, more so than C (as far as I can tell). The problem is that Job A want an answer Monday morning and my second interview with C is Tuesday afternoon! Can I ask my recruiter to tell them to push back my deadline? Or do I call the other job and see what they could do? I feel sick with worry…

    1. beanie gee*

      Here’s what I would do.
      1. Decide if you would want Job A if you didn’t have the other offer and interview. It sounds like you have real concerns about it and would only take it if you didn’t have other options. If that’s the case, seriously consider just not accepting the offer. Or be honest and say you are considering multiple options and need more time to decide, asking if they can wait until Friday for an answer.

      2. When you interview with C, let them know you currently have two other offers you are considering, but that you like this one the most (if that’s true after this next interview). Sometimes this will put some pressure on them to speed up their process. Sometimes they have no choice and it will just take as long as it takes to know if you got it. I wouldn’t give them a deadline, but IF they ask you can let them know you have until Friday (or whenever it is) before you would need to accept the other offer.

      Good luck!

    2. animaniactoo*

      You can ask your recruiter if it’s possible to push back the deadline – can’t tell them, that might be a hard deadline. But you can ask if it’s possible.

      However, it doesn’t sound like pushing it would have much effect since you’re not in a situation where you’re just waiting a couple of days to see if you’ll get an offer from Job C. You’re only going for a 2nd interview, and the timeline from there could be at least 2 weeks until you know anything from then. On that basis, it doesn’t make sense to push the deadline for Job A in the hopes of Job C working out.

      So I think the real question is: If you turn down Job A, will you be okay continuing to search if Job C doesn’t work out?

    3. boredatwork*

      My suggestion would be to take job A – since this is your first job, you really won’t be able to gauge how the work actually is until you get in there and actually start working.

      I’d take Beanie gee’s advice about interviewing with “C”. If you end up getting job “C” you can gracefully back out of job “A”. Since you’re a college student and this is your first job, there’s more leniency about being flaky.

    4. QueenB*

      Thank you for all your advice. I’m going to call the recruiter first and see what I can do. At least I have the weekend!

  156. Weyrwoman*

    Encountered my first direct instance of gender discrimination in a work environment on Wednesday. We did panel interviews for a new intern/part-time assistant for the team and it ended up being just me and a senior team member in the room with the interviewee, with the rest of the team on video call.

    During the interview, even if I asked a question, the interviewee would only look at the senior team member (I’m AFAB, senior is male). Also during the interview the would-be intern consistently used female pronouns for people that he had conflicts with, even when they were hypothetical (“she didn’t get back to me” “she came in mad” “the angry customer – she was angry” etc). And at the end when STM stood up to thank the guy, they shook hands and I had stood up and reached my own hand out and the interviewee didn’t even turn towards me to shake my hand. -_-

    I’m probably going to be tilted about this for weeks, to be honest. Surely whoever did this guy’s interview prep (he had mentioned using a career center) would have covered some of these seemingly basic things?

    2. Rusty Shackelford*

      Surely whoever did this guy’s interview prep (he had mentioned using a career center) would have covered some of these seemingly basic things?

      Honestly, paying attention to everyone in the room, no matter what gender they are, is so basic that it shouldn’t be considered part of interview prep.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        I would go further to say that people who blatantly ignore others because of [reasons] aren’t going to change their behavior because they get some basic interview prep advice. They do it because a) it literally doesn’t occur to them that the person/people-they-ignore matter, or b) they know what they’re doing and assume the people-like-them are cool with it too.

        Please tell me everyone was on board with axing that guy’s candidacy!

        1. Weyrwoman*

          Yeah our remote manager noticed all of this and was seriously unhappy about it, so the dude got a unanimous NO WAY from the team.

  157. HereKittyKitty*

    Job Woes

    I’ve been trying to escape my hell-hole and it’s been a struggle. One company seemed really promising- I had 3 interviews, the last one being a 2 hour interview that I had to take a half day off work for…. and then I got a canned rejection letter. Gosh it stung. I’m feeling kinda discouraged over-all. I have a lead on another job, but it seems to be a slow-moving process. He said he would send me interview time for when he’s back in town and I haven’t heard anything in 2 days (I followed up). I’m now worried I’ll be stuck here for a while longer.

    Anyway, I feel blah. I just want to feel like I’m not suffocating anymore.

  158. Took a Job I Shouldn't Have*

    I’m in a field where there aren’t many jobs in a town/living situation I can’t change at the moment. I finally got an interview and a job offer for one that also offers great benefits. I took it…but there’s a big downside, and that’s overnight on-call shifts.

    I take medication at night to help me sleep. It leaves me drowsy and frankly too high to function if I’m woken up before the meds wear off. My plan was to just not take the meds during my on-call nights but my doctor told me I can’t do that. I didn’t know this until after I accepted the job.

    I already gave notice at my current job. It’s unlikely that a new job will pop up in my field for a while. I really need the money. I could conceivably take a retail/food service job (if I can get one) but I’m not sure I’d be able to support myself on that. How can I handle this?

    (Please don’t tell me I made a mistake; I realize this, and I’m just trying to find solutions now.)

    1. Rey*

      Have you talked to your doctor about other treatment options? Spell out your exact needs (overnight on-call shifts once a week, month, whatever; need to be capable of clearly communication, operating heavy machinery, performing open heart surgery)) and find out what your options are. Good luck! I hope it all works out

      1. Me*

        ^^^ exactly this. Your dr should be partnering with you to find a solution that will work. A lot of times they just answer what’s but in front of them and don’t dig farther. So can I skip this on nights I’m on-call = no, but they don’t realize fully why your asking or that you really need a solution.

        There’s also times a second opinion is good if you can’t resolve an issue with the first. I’d say needing to be able to work and sleep fits the bill.

    2. Natalie*

      I like Rey’s idea of talking to your doctor. Depending on the circumstances it might also be worth talking to your HR department about an ADA accommodation. Contrary to popular belief, you *do not* have to disclose a disability until accommodation is needed, and in this case you have only just learned that accommodation may be needed.

      The accommodation process isn’t black & white, so from here I couldn’t say if your condition would be considered a disability for ADA purposes, or if the on-call shifts are enough of a core job duty that releasing you from them would be an undue hardship. But if you think the alternative is having to leave the job, you don’t have much to lose by at least starting the process with HR.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Agreed – even without specific ADA accommodation it might be possible to say “I thought I was going to be able to do this when I accepted but have since been advised by my doctor that my plan for handling it won’t work. Is there any possibility to fore-go the on-call shifts until I can research other alternatives? If there’s something relevant that’s possible to do as a trade-off, I’d be willing to pick that up so that I’m not just skipping out on this part of the job.”

        Also – you gave notice at your current job. Any possibility of retracting notice? “It turns out the opportunity won’t work out, and I was only willing to move for the chance to [X]. Since that’s not possible, I’d like to continue here if that’s an option.”

    3. Alice*

      Oof, sounds difficult. But you haven’t done anything wrong.
      I think that bringing it up sooner rather than later is the way to go. You only just found out that it’s not workable, and you want to connect with your future manager to figure out how to handle it.
      I think it’s important to communicate to your manager, and your future peers, that it’s not about you not liking overnight on-call shifts; it’s a medical issue. While it’s not fair, your new colleagues might react badly if they thought that you were refusing to do a less desirable part of the job, just because. While you shouldn’t have to debate that with them, in reality, I think you will build stronger relationships by acknowledging that this accommodation is not ideal from their point of view. Maybe there’s a different unpopular task that you can take on to “even things out”?

  159. To report or not to report?*

    A female family member I am close to was assaulted at work and doesn’t know if she wants to report it. Her direct supervisor tried to forcibly kiss her. She pushed him away and he eventually stopped and left. She is an engineer in a very male dominated environment. She already experiences verbal harassment from plant workers. She is afraid of serious backlash. She understands the negatives of not reporting but feels that reporting will be worse for her in the long run. How do I support her through this? Obviously I want her to report it and for upper management to do the right thing. But I understand her feelings are paramount here. How do I gently encourage reporting? I don’t know what to say.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wouldn’t encourage her to report it. If she wants to report it, she can, but respect what she wants to do. Some people know that if they report they will be retaliated against (which is illegal but still happens). Some people just don’t want to deal at the moment. The best thing to do would be the listen to her and support her. But if you are going to suggest anything, suggest to her that she document everything.

    2. boredatwork*

      First, you should follow the lead of the person who was assaulted. It is very much not your place to interfere with anything related to her job.

      Suggest that at a minimum she should keep a log of every time she’s harassed at work, name, date, what was said. That way if she ever does want to go to HR she has documentation.

    3. Engineer Girl*

      Sadly, she will face retaliation. That’s been my experience.

      What she needs to do:
      • Write down everything that happened in a journal, with date time stamps. Include all forms of harassment. Do NOT store the journal at work or on company equipment (like computers). It’s amazing how it mysteriously disappears. Keep it in the briefcase.
      • Report it to HR and expect fallout.
      • Look for a new job that treats women better.
      • Have a session with a counselor to get rebalanced
      • Connect with other women engineers so she doesn’t feel alone. They can encourage with strategies.

      If it helps, almost all women engineers have been harassed or threaded in some way. Many of us have had stalkers. Talking with the other tech women really helps when you realize it isn’t you, it’s the industry.

      1. To report or not to report?*

        Engineer Girl, thanks for responding. She’s late 20s and has imposter syndrome big time. She’s a perfectionist and has always doubted her place. She was promoted to senior process engineer a couple months ago and felt good for a while. Now she’s seriously doubting herself. She’s always has comments in her workplace, especially the plant environment. She’s had managers call her names and refer to her physical appearance. But never had anyone put their hands on her. I’ll encourage her to document and have notes at home even if she doesn’t report.

        1. Engineer Girl*

          She’s not pushing back ecause of imposter syndrome.
          The only way to stop it is to take ownership. Get very cold and state “That behavior is sexist and unacceptable.”
          The key is to get the emotions out of the response. Cold. Cold cold.
          Own being “the botch”.
          There are guys that think it’s cool to harass (18%)
          There are guys that are really uncomfortable with it, but stay silent due to their own fear of retaliation (80%)
          There are guys that are disgusted by it and are speaking up when she’s not there (2%)

          When she shuts it down it will give freedom for the decent guys to speak out. It will also cause the jerks to escalate. She needs to hold fast.

      2. To report or not to report?*

        Engineer Girl, is there a group of women engineers I can refer her to? Maybe a facebook group or professional/social association?

        1. Engineer Girl*

          Society of Women Engineers
          Anita Borg institute

          Are there other women engineers at her workplace? Not in her group but at the physical location. They could go out to lunch together.

          She needs to get a woman engineer mentor.

        2. OtterB*

          Not Engineer Girl, but there exists a Society of Women Engineers (SWE). Professional societies for different types of engineers often have women’s groups or diversity groups that might offer resources as well.

    4. beanie gee*

      That sucks. :(

      It sounds like you’re being supportive just by listening.

      I’m sure you don’t need telling, but for anyone else reading who it might benefit, don’t ask what she did to make him do that. Don’t suggest in any way that it was her fault. Don’t guilt her if she decides not to report it.

      One thing you could do is look up some resources for her in case she does decide to report it. Things that can help her decide, but also things that might help her get through the reporting process if she does decide to report.

      And suggest that even if she doesn’t report it now, document everything. Even if it’s off site, write down what happened, the date, and anyone else who might have witnessed it. Suggest that she documents interactions with her supervisor in the future also. Always better to have it recorded and not need it than to try to scramble and go back and remember what happened if things get worse.

    5. Havarti*

      I’m so furious on her behalf. I’m assuming she’s fairly young? Younger me would totally understand not reporting it. Current me wants to burn that place to the ground and salt the earth. How badly does she want to keep a job where her direct supervisor tried to kiss her and plant workers verbally harass her? Like how sure is she that the supervisor won’t try that again? Perhaps next time he won’t stop and leave. Then what? Keeping quiet will not make her less of a target. If anything they’ll realize they can keep getting away with assault/harassment and may escalate. Ideally management would take care of it but it’s possible the upper ranks are full of jerks and nothing would happen. I think she should plan her exit and go full scorched earth. This isn’t likely a job she’ll be able to keep either way.

      That being said, you can’t make someone do something they don’t want to. Maybe show her the responses you get?

  160. Face Cat vs Hand Dog*

    I usually go to a workout class on my lunch break. My dept recently moved our team meetings to immediately before this, so I don’t have time to change and get to the gym if I stay for the whole meeting. I need to leave about 10mins early to be on time to my class. I’ve been late to class a few times (which is allowed but not ideal) and stepped out early a few times without saying why, but I feel weird about doing the latter.

    The times the classes are offered conflict with the meeting no matter what, if I go to an earlier one it ends during the meeting and there aren’t any afternoon classes. Our meetings aren’t every day but they’re dispersed such that this comes up 1-2 times a week.

    Is it ok to ask to step out early to make it to the gym? This seems super frivolous on the one hand and reasonable on the other. I already flex my schedule frequently for medical appointments so I feel uncomfortable asking for yet another cosideration for something non-essential but being able to take a workout for lunch is a big deal for me also. Thoughts?

    1. ContentWrangler*

      I also go to exercise classes over lunch so I get how frustrating it is when these kinds of conflicts come up. However, I think regularly leaving the meetings early isn’t a good plan. Ultimately, work meetings trump work outs.

      But, there could be some mitigating factors – How long are these team meetings? Does everyone stay through the entire thing? If you’re the only one ducking out, that’s going to be noticed. But if it’s a long meeting and you can push your part to the beginning of the meeting, maybe it’s alright to leave if the rest of the meeting isn’t relevant to you. How big is your team? If this is a small team meeting, maybe you could ask your leader if there’s another time for the meetings.

    2. Me*

      Oooo I wouldn’t. Work is the primary focus during the workday. Yeah we all get a lunch break but in most places that aren’t hourly, it’s understood that if you normally break at 12 but today work dictates you take it at 1 then that’s what happens.

      If your midday workout is necessary self-care for you, can you swap the class for some other kind of workout that’s not on a set clock? Or find a different type of class to take?

      Sorry – it stinks to have to give up something you enjoy.

      1. Face Cat vs Hand Dog*

        I have some really specific medical needs and this is a specific kind of workout that is one of the only things I can do with the physical condition I have. Think phys rehab training. So my option is to miss part of these status meetings or to not get to exercise very often, because the way the classes are offered means I don’t have much wiggle room.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Is there any way you can approach the meeting organizer or team leader and ask if they can accommodate your need to leave 10 min early on occasion to make your PT class? I think it’s much more understandable if you frame it like that – you have a restricted option to attend a class that’s relevant to your continued health.

    3. bunniferous*

      You say this comes up one or two times a week? Is your class scheduled every day or just two (or three) times a week? If it were me I would take the class when I did not have a meeting and do something else when the meeting interfered.

      1. Face Cat vs Hand Dog*

        Both the meetings and classes are on specific days of the week, which overlap once or twice depending.

    4. L.S. Cooper*

      Can you work out without the class? I totally get the motivation and structure added by classes, but that’s better than nothing right?
      (Personally, I would happily meet a fellow MBMBAMbino for a workday workout, but that’s not necessarily helpful!)

      1. Face Cat vs Hand Dog*

        What’s up you cool baby??

        And not really, I have a physical condition that means I have some very specific needs WRT what kind of exercise I can do. I had to quit the other non-scheduled things I used to do when I got sick and now I’m sorta stuck doing these targeted classes or nothing. That’s the real rub here, if I didn’t need to be in these specific sessions I wouldn’t.

        1. Prawn to be wild*

          Then really you should stop describing this as a class – it’s a needed rehabilitative activity!

  161. Batgirl*

    How would your industry fare on this island, which is planning to abolish timekeeping? I have to admit it’s my idea of heaven to ban clocks, but I would want a standard sunrise and sunset as bookends, which they don’t have in this part of Norway. After the punctuality debates here recently it made me wonder just whether they can do it. I teach, and while I have students who would love learning in this set up, there are many who would loathe it and a third group who would never consider it time for school!
    //www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/20/sommaroy-island-norway-attempt-create-first-time-free-zone

  162. Fishy Question*

    Does microwaved fish really smell that awful? It seems to be a commonly accepted fact that fish is something you should avoid microwaving at the office (or even avoid eating in an office environment altogether). But I’ve never understood this, as the smell has never struck me as particularly strong or bothersome (even in my current pregnant-and-able-to-smell-everything-in-a-two block-radius state). Sure, raw or spoiled fish can have a pretty strong smell but cooked fish doesn’t strike me as worse than most other non-fishy foods. Am I an odd-ball and this is something that bothers most everyone, or does it only affect some people (like hating the taste of cilantro) and we politely refrain to avoid offending the folks with more delicate noses?

    1. Temperance*

      Honestly, I have never met a person who is okay with the smell of microwaved fish. I dislike fish and generally think that most of it has a strong smell.

      To me, it’s a disgusting smell, and probably made worse by the fact that my office is the one closest to the kitchen.

    2. beanie gee*

      I’m gonna be brutally honest and say this is something that bothers most people. You’re a fortunate one that it doesn’t bother you!

    3. Birch*

      I’m with you. IMO microwaved broccoli or brussels sprouts is WAY worse than fish! Although maybe canned tuna is the exception.

    4. Me*

      A million times yes. It’s less the specific smell and more that it’s pervasive and lingering. Popcorn and eggs also top my list of things I loved to eat but prefer not to be cooked in the office.

    5. LCL*

      I don’t find it offensive, as long as it is already cooked and it is just being warmed. The smell disperses quickly. What I find completely disgusting are the healthy home cooked meals that some people bring that are loaded with onions. Even if the dish is fully cooked and is just being warmed, the onions create an unmistakeable stench that lingers. The heavy reheated onion scent smells just like sewage, to me. But I keep quiet about it.

    6. softcastle mccormick*

      Yes, fish is a no-no, unfortunately. I have an incredibly sensitive coworker and this is our forbidden snacks list:
      -Popcorn
      -Kimchi
      -Curry
      -Fish
      -Brussels sprouts and asparagus
      -Darkly toasted breads

    7. Bunny Girl*

      I don’t really know how I feel about microwaved fish honestly. I have a really poor sense of smell because of allergy and sinus issues and while I can clearly smell microwaved fish, it doesn’t really bother me. I think because it is a strong smell it might be courteous to not bring it in to an office, but I would ever think to tell a coworker not to do it and I wouldn’t make a big deal about it. I remember I had a coworker who had a nose like a blood hound and she got on my nerves because she apparently thought the only food we should be able to heat up or have in the kitchen was dry toast and rice. I had heated some vegetables up one afternoon and she made the most ridiculous display of gagging and running around opening windows and going on for over thirty minutes. I couldn’t smell anything and neither could anyone else.

    8. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I’ll join you here. I had a temp gig in an office in a medium-sized city on a seaside, with a centuries-long commercial heritage of fishing, and a population that generally includes fish more than once a week in their diet. People would microwave fish all the time and it simply wasn’t that bad. Kitchen odors all linger about the same, as far as I’m concerned. Fish is just another kitchen odor.

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      It doesn’t bother me either. I suspect we’re in a minority, but maybe it’s only the people who it bothers who also speak up about it.

    11. Koala dreams*

      I always find it funny when I read the comments about fish here on AAM. Here is the only place I met the idea that fish in general is considered smelly. Sure, fermented fish or other special fish dishes can be smelly, but cooked or fried fish in general? When I think of smelly food, I think of other things like peanut butter or garlic.

  163. boredatwork*

    First, you should follow the lead of the person who was assaulted. It is very much not your place to interfere with anything related to her job.

    Suggest that at a minimum she should keep a log of every time she’s harassed at work, name, date, what was said. That way if she ever does want to go to HR she has documentation.

  164. Lady ALF*

    This week, my coworker posted a “joke” sign and wondering what everyone’s take is:

    We work for a well known international lawyer/accountant type professional firm. My coworker is the receptionist. I am an admin. They posted a sign in the room behind the reception desk. Clients can see into the room but can’t see this sign, however, all of our coworkers see it as they grab their mail.

    The sign said something to the effect: I was told to think before I act. If I slap the Sh** out of you, know that I thought good and hard about it.

    I was quite taken aback by the sign and it made me uncomfortable. I didn’t do anything about it although I planned to take a discreet picture at some point in the day and report it to our shared remote supervisor as I knew the bigwigs in our office are notoriously non-confrontational especially with the receptionist. The receptionist has a history of being uncooperative and combative especially with Admin staff, has posted other not so nice signs where CLIENTS can see them. (the last one said something like unless you sign my pay cheque, you can’t tell me what to do) and yet nothing is done.

    When I went back to take the picture, the receptionist was there (they were not when I first saw the sign). So instead of snapping the pic, I said, “wow, that sign is quite aggressive.” They chuckled and said another coworker had shared it with them. At the end of the day, after the receptionist had left, I went to take the pic and the sign had been removed. It has not appeared again.

    But is the sign as bad as it made me feel? How would ya’ll feel about your receptionist posting something like that?

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I would be wildly not okay with anyone posting a sign involving either profanity or violence in a workspace, let alone both, even as a joke. To be honest, it’s probably the kind of thing I’d take down and throw away when no one was looking, though that’s certainly not the best response on several levels.

    2. LCL*

      I would think she was being very tacky. And I would probably make the sign disappear myself.

    3. softcastle mccormick*

      Totally tacky and not okay. I work in a much more casual office and when a coworker posted a similar sign behind her desk, as well as tried to start a “quote wall” of all our inside jokes (just as cringeworthy as it sounds). Our manager shut that down in a New York minute.

  165. Nessun*

    About two weeks ago, the company decided to change our dress code from Business Casual to (I kid you not) We Trust You. The idea is, you know who you’re meeting with and what they’d wear, dress to suit them; and if you’re not doing something outward facing, you can tone it down or do whatever, because We Trust You.

    …I have never seen so many ridiculously casually dressed people in my whole work life. We have everything ranging from three piece suits (that must be a very important meeting – and that guy looked super sharp, so I’m sure he nailed it!) to “haven’t I seen that outfit on people at the dog park”. It’s legitimately hilarious to me, because I still mostly wear dress pants and we’ve always had jean Fridays, but I seriously wonder what we’ll look like come the real summer weather.

    I hope the whole thing shakes out, as everyone realizes what works best and what doesn’t…but I may be giving people the TEENSIEST, COMPLETELY UNWARRANTED benefit of the doubt about figuring out what to wear in an office. For now, it’s mostly an entertaining and fascinating example of human thought processes.

    1. Lady ALF*

      ugh, we had the same “dress code” applied to our office a couple years ago. It’s smoothed out a bit now but it was ghastly at first. Especially with the new hires fresh out of college and no one, with any standing, would say a word to the butt cheek showing, ripped cutoffs wearing new hire who thought that would be a great outfit to wear to a trade type show.

    2. Me*

      I admire your hopeful holding out but I suspect it’s for naught. Going from business casual (which isn’t that fancy in the first place) to we trust you is going to be interpreted as “do what you want.” They essentially removed the dress code and that’s exactly how it’s being interpreted – no dress code.

    3. softcastle mccormick*

      Our office has a similar “we trust you” dress code (we’re not client facing, and we’re attached to our company’s DC), and it truly is fascinating to see what folks will come up with, as you said. I’ve seen athleisure with Crocs, 5 inch stilletto heels, off-the-shoulder and open-back tops, graphic tees with rude phrases… you name it. Hopefully your peers reign it in a little bit, because I’ve seen what they wear at the dog park and I’d never dream of bringing it to work, especially not when I’m potentially meeting with a client!

    4. Catsaber*

      That sounds like a wonderful way to experience the Rich Tapestry of Life.

      My workplace feels like a “we trust you” situation as well, and I have seen some things. On paper we’re “business casual” but it’s higher ed IT, which is more like “wild west.”

    5. Gumby*

      Oddly, I have always worked at “we trust you” type places. If you can take the complete absence of a dress code to be that. I am unfazed by shorts and t-shirts, khakis and polo shirts, saris, Hawaiian shirts and athletic shorts, dresses, loose blouses over leggings, or dress shirts with slacks. However, the lab coat over shorts look is kinda weird until you get used to the ‘wait, does he have on anything under that’ double-take.

  166. HigherEd Person*

    Do you have work friends? It was SO easy to make work friends when I was a young, single, brand new professional in my 20’s. Now as a 40 year old working mom who supervises people and runs a dept….not so much.

    I had a frustrating thing happen yesterday and I realized that there was NO ONE I could call to vent with. There was no one that I would call to go eat lunch with. No one to grab coffee with. No one that I would actually consider a friend – and that really really REALLY sucks. I actually got pretty upset about it. I’m really lonely here.

    I’ve been at my institution (I work in Higher Ed administration) for 3 years, and while everyone is super friendly, no one is my friend. If I were to ask someone to get lunch or coffee, it would be treated as a meeting where they would expect me to be talking about work stuff. The people that seem friendly or open to friendships are way younger than me, report to people that are my peers, and are already friends with the people I supervise. If they are my age and have kids (like me), they have been here for YEARS already and have established friendships. I chat with my team throughout the day, or chat with other people I see around campus, but I feel pretty alone otherwise.

    Is work friendships a myth? Am I trying too hard to make fetch happen?

    1. coffee cup*

      I feel like I ONLY have work friendships! But it very much depends on who else is in your workplace. I’ve worked places where I’d never be friends with any of the people (and vice versa). They’re not a myth, but I don’t think they’re a given, either.

      Is there anything you mind about being friends with someone younger? I suppose it depends on the gap, but as I get older I find, oddly, I often notice the gaps less, because it’s more about life stage and maturity than age, and numbers don’t always tell that full story.

    2. Me*

      Have you tried making friends with people at your level? It’s pretty impossible to be friends with subordinates, but what about other managers? Can you ask one you are passingly friendly with if they’d be interested in a coffee break sometime? Put out there that it’s NOT a work meeting, you just would welcome the opportunity to take a breather from work sometimes and company would be nice. People at my place like to go for walks. 5-10 minutes just to get some fresh air.

      1. HigherEd Person*

        The directors at my level are mostly really awesome people, but they’re established here. Like they’ve been working here for 15+ years and have friends. I need to branch out of my division and see if there are other people my age in other areas.

        And I don’t mind being friends with someone younger, but it’s hard to really relate to a lot of things when we’re at different places in life. And the younger folks that I know here all report to the people who are my work peers – so I obviously can’t vent about work stuff to them. Also, if they are already friends with my team members, that’s awkward.

        I fully accept that I’m going to have to be vulnerable to ask people to “hang out” or whatever, but it was NEVER this hard for me before. I do have a ton of friends from former institutions that I call often, but no one here on this campus.

        1. HigherEd Person*

          and when i say that the established people have friends, many of them give off the “I’m good. No new ppl” vibe very strongly.

            2. Environmental Compliance*

              I don’t know if that’s quite fair to say. You can be friendly without wanting to be friends, and I don’t think it’s realistic to expect everyone to want to be friends with you in a short period of time.

              1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

                and I don’t think it’s realistic to expect everyone to want to be friends with you in a short period of time

                I agree with that completely, but there’s a difference imo between that and the “I’m good, no new people” vibe. If I click with a new person, I’m going to *eventually, over time* end up being friends with the new person. I’m not going to ignore the new person for no reason other than that I already have enough friends. It’s not like I have a limited number of friend positions, and if they’re all taken, the new person needs to wait for an opening and then apply.

                1. another scientist*

                  it sounds really harsh when you put it this way. I find that even if I meet people who are ‘on my wavelength’, it takes some time investment to become friends. If my work time and my free time is fairly booked up, I just might not be able to invest that time, even if I want to. Personally, I balance my energy best when only going out/inviting guests 2-3 times a week max.
                  I might invite interesting new coworker to my larger 4th of July celebration or similar, but that’s not that conducive to getting to know one another.

        2. Me*

          I wouldn’t necessarily be discouraged by the already have friends part. I think it’s hard to break the habit of defaulting to people you’ve known longer sometimes, so you might have to be the initiator with those folks for a while.

    3. NicoleK*

      Work friendships gets tricky when you’re a supervisor or manager. When I was a manager, I had to limit lunches and coffees to my peers. Do you have former colleagues that you can reach out to?

    4. Lily Rowan*

      I’m in a very similar position, and one thing I’d say is to put yourself out there a little bit. Like, I have had a good vibe with someone for a while, she’s at the right level, etc. but we’re still not actual friends, but when I really needed to vent, I went to her. It helped! And loosened up our whole relationship.

    5. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Nope, they exist. Now that I think of it, most of my friendships have been with work friends or friends of work friends. I also am seeing someone I used to work with, dated another ex-coworker in the past, and almost ended up dating a third. I’m in a totally different field though. Don’t know how things work in Higher Ed administration. Also don’t have any advice for when there is work hierarchy involved. Few things that I noticed in my field (IT)

      1) it takes years for a real bond to form.
      2) it always always always forms as a result of working together, getting things done together, and respecting each other’s input as colleagues. It does not form if any of these components are missing.
      3) forced friendships that are based on team-building activities and mandatory fun, where people are pushed into getting too close too fast, do not last. Neither do the ones that grow out of “Workplace has a clique of popular kids, they all go out to lunches together and party after work/on weekends together” (I was a member of that kind of group at OldJob, lost touch with all of them now six years after leaving OldJob, and have no regrets whatsoever.)

      So, you probably won’t become close friends with anyone overnight. But “everyone is super friendly” is a great place to start. Maybe something more close will grow out of that over time. Maybe not.

    6. Mazzy*

      I’m exactly in your situation, mostly because my coworkers and team tend to be a decade younger, and they seem to not feel that I am their peer. There feels like there is a divide. So work friendships are a thing, but your situation is a thing as well. I feel like I have people a decade on either side of me, and impacts their level of experience and positions they sit in as well, and I don’t have anyone that feels like a peer I can go to and vent. And I’ve made the error of venting to people below my level, making it awkward and making me look unprofessional.

    7. another scientist*

      I don’t have that much advice, but commiseration. I am in my early thirties, and until recently, almost all of my friends were people I met through work. Now my work group has changed pretty rapidly, with much fewer colleagues, who are all quite a bit younger.
      I’m trying to connect more with peers who are in a nearby division. Luckily, joining others for lunch isn’t such an issue here. I wonder if you can make connections by talking about your kids with peers or asking for recommendations (for camp etc.).

  167. Renata Ricotta*

    It’s been a long time since I posted or had time to read daily like I used to, but I love this site and finally have a work-related celebration to share! I’ve quit my high-stress, high-paying legal job, and my last day is in a week. I’ve saved aggressively the past few years and am really lucky and privileged to be 1) able to take six months off to travel, and 2) was also lucky enough that an opportunity for a new job fell into place starting in January, which is now all locked in, so I can have peace of mind that I’ll still be gainfully employed when I come back to the working world. I’m so excited!

    1. Me*

      That’s so exciting! It’s lovely things came together so nicely for you. Enjoy the heck out of it!

  168. Birch*

    Just a scream into the void and a request for advice from anyone who has been in a situation where the bridges have all been burned but you still have to work together for the meantime.

    My boss hijacked our normal weekly team meeting to spend 2.5 hours telling us their life story, complete with charts, timelines, graphs, random personal details about their ex-partner and traumatized child, and quotes from 7-year-old emails. I bet that powerpoint deck was 100 slides long. Seriously. And it finished with a Psych 101-style lecture on the Myers’-Briggs and how important it was for us to understand boss’s personality type. Then they went around and guessed each of our types and made us correct them on the spot (without actually taking the test). Skipped any important updates, including 2 new team members, a complicated project with a deadline of the next day, and a presentation next week.

    The bridges have been burned over the course of the past couple of years–boss has driven away team members, showed blatant favoritism, yelled at people, shown questionable ethics in a variety of ways, and generally refuses to take any responsibility for communication but is glad to criticize and blame everybody else. My natural state is to go scorched-earth on people like this; I remain professional in interaction but I don’t engage in pleasantries and I don’t hang around any more than I have to (only applies to the boss, of course–the rest of the team gets along great and hangs out weekly). Everyone else seems to be… ignoring boss’s behaviour or just not reacting to it in front of them, and it weirds me out. People making jokes in team meetings, chitchatting about weekends. I realise that putting on a friendly/cooperative face is part of being professional, but how do you thread that needle between not enabling bad behavior (and honestly, minimizing interaction for your own mental health) and staying professional?

    1. Rey*

      It’s possible that the boss’s hijacks don’t have the same mental health affect on some of your coworkers, or that their desire to pull back manifests in different ways. Your response is to not participate in pleasantries, maybe their response is passive aggressive emails or stealing ballpoint pens. Both are valid responses from sitting through the boss’s therapy sessions (seriously, 100 slides is nuts).

      But your question at the end is how to stay professional without enabling bad behavior. I don’t think that exchanging pleasantries means that they are enabling bad behavior. And honestly, this reminds me of this letter about a jerky boss: https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/can-i-fix-how-my-boss-treats-people.html. At this point, it sounds like all of you should be devoting the most energy possible to finding new jobs, not making him a better boss. Do what you have to do to protect your mental health and get out.

    2. Reba*

      OK, first of all, WHAT???????

      Two, this might or might not be a good reframe: the way you’re using “bridges burned” I’m reading more as “Boss has shown his true colors (which are those of a rotten banana).” To me, burned bridges means no relationship is possible any longer. Your coworkers are intentionally *not* burning bridges — they want to keep having a professional relationship so they can stay in their jobs, presumably. That’s taking precedence over any feelings of righteous anger. Not their circus, not their monkeys.

      Third, and related, is the power dynamic. Of course, I don’t know what you are referring to when you say enabling, but I guess that leaves me thinking, what do you expect them to do? Boss is in the position of authority. There are ways to push back on bad behavior in the moment (I’m thinking like, calling out or reporting racist language, for example, or correcting ablelist plans for something). But if Boss wants to call a meeting and tell you about the John Wick movies for an hour, it sucks but he can call that meeting and require you to be in it.

      Next steps, gauge your coworkers’ appetite for pushing back as a group. Or think about whether you are well positioned to take the complaint higher.

    3. I have a pug*

      Your boss sounds like an extreme version of Michael Scott. Just gross!

      Having said that….
      You say that you tend to “go scorched earth on people like this.” However, other people, especially in the workplace, tend to keep their opinions of the boss, supervisors, other coworkers to themselves. They put on an act in the workplace. This is especially true when it concerns their opinion of the boss. Every single one of your coworkers might be dusting off their resumes and planning to jump ship, or wishing that they could. However, in the meantime, the boss is the boss. The boss is in the position of authority. Just because people are chitchatting and going along with the boss does not mean that they approve of him and his methods. Sometimes it’s best to keep one’s opinion to oneself — and this includes body language, interactions with the boss, etc.

      Also, you have a bad boss who isn’t going to change. If your coworkers refuse to exchange pleasantries with the boss (as you apparently have chosen to do) that will not change the boss. It sounds like you might be giving your boss the cold shoulder and are wondering why your coworkers are not doing the same thing. Answer: Because he’s the boss. Also, you cannot judge people’s true opinions based on their interactions with others.

      Or, perhaps your coworkers truly don’t have a problem with the boss. I find this unlikely. Anyway, it’s never a bad look to be professional.

  169. Me*

    The next level of position above mine’s job description requires candidates to have supervisory experience. So should I ever be interested in promotion beyond my current level I would need to meet this qualification. The fun part is there is nothing at my level that allows me to gain supervisory experience.

    This is government where they’re not known to be flexible – if it’s required it’s required. I don’t even know if I want that position some day, but if I do, I need to figure out how to do the seemingly impossible without leaving.

    Ideas and stories from those who have done it super welcome.

    3. Lady Kelvin*

      I am also in government and here’s how it would work for us. Your supervisory experience doesn’t have to be in the job you are in or even as a “manager”. We could get supervisory experience by leading external working groups, or volunteering and supervising an event, or acting as lead for some period of time when a person was out.

    4. Nessun*

      I have been in the same situation twice, with two drastically different plans & results. The first time, I wanted to move up and asked how to gain supervisory experience. Since I asked, I was given a mentee to work with, and the whole thing was a disaster (I don’t think anyone apart from me read the instructions on what a mentor/mentee relationship looks like, including my boss). I didn’t end up moving up from that experience, and my (then)boss called out my lack of experience! I honestly don’t know what was up with that. I do stand by the adage that you have to ask to get…although YMMV.

      Second instance, my (new)boss wanted me to move up. So he took a look at who I worked with, if they were my junior, and what our working relationship was, and then he stated that if I was providing training or mentorship of any flavour, he’d consider that supervising (for the purposes of checking the box on the role expectations). Then he championed me for the new role, and helped me word my work in mentoring and training as supervisory experiences. I got the new role.

    5. LQ*

      Also government, and just got promoted to a manager level (woo) with no real supervisory experience.

      Generally how it works around here is someone gets an out of class assignment for a time which gets them supervisory experience. Definitely something to talk to your boss (or your boss’s boss if you have a relationship) about.

      Mine was a little different. I’ve ton a lot of team lead kind of work, while not formally team lead, so not supervising but “providing work direction” which are apparently the magic words. I also oversaw/see the work of a whole bunch of contractors (again “providing work direction”) which was a big part of it. None of those were formal parts of my job level, but every place it was available I grabbed for it (in an attempt to accomplish a bigger project goal, not just promotion). So I’m currently working not quite out of class but in an unclassified role for a couple years which will give me the supervisory experience to get an actual management role.

      Yes absolutely be interested! If you have folks around you who have been promoted ask them. I’ve definitely talked with people about what I’ve seen and generally how it works here. If there’s a project offer to lead it. If there’s an opportunity to train someone new on the team offer to do it. And definitely talk with your boss about this. I wouldn’t frame it as “promote me” but “hey I’m interested in doing some work that would give me some opportunities to see if I might be interested in being a supervisor at some point.”

    6. Policy wonk*

      Bring on and supervise an intern or two. Participate in an agency mentoring program as a mentor. Many people get such ecperience by serving in an acting capacity when someone is out for an extended period, such as covering a medical leave or long-term training. There is also the possibility of a detail within your agency or to another agency.

  170. PretzelCatz*

    I recently interviewed for a job where the “salary range” stated in the ad was $x –> $x+8. I had a great initial interview, and was told I advanced to the next round but they wanted to make sure I would accept the offer first. They offered me $x, the very bottom of the range. I was a little insulted because I have unique experience that sets me apart for this role. I tried to negotiate and was told there was absolutely no room for them to budge. Were they lying to me or was the “salary range” in the ad not a starting salary range but a range for what you can possibly make in that role (i.e., maybe they really do start everyone at the bottom of the range regardless of experience?). Pretty bummed and jealous of all the successful negotiations from yesterday’s thread…

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Sometimes refusing to accept a job when you’re abundantly qualified and they insist on underpaying you is a victory – you will soon have a better job with a better salary, and the other side will hopefully learn a lesson.

    2. Me*

      My employer does this and it enrages me. They advertise the salary range – but it’s informational. They’re telling you what you start at and what the max pay is. There is no negotiation except at the director type levels. I wish they’d stop. It’s government and it’s common here. I thikn in smaller companies and non-profits it can happen a fair bit too. I don’t know about other industries but it does happen and it’s dumb.

    3. Entry Level Marcus*

      Is it a government job? The way government salary ranges in ads typically work is that the lower end of the range is what you will be offered when hired, and the upper end is what you will make if you work there for many years and get step increases. Misleading? Yes, but that seems to be how it works.

      1. LQ*

        Yeah this was my immediate thought (also government). A salary range is the range of what the position can pay, not what the starting pay could be. You can negotiate to maybe start a step or two in but that’s unlikely unless you’ve got a real hard core manager who is willing to fight with HR (and unions).

    4. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      I’ve worked places where they post the full salary range (let’s pretend it’s $20-$25 per hour) but are only allowed to hire people in the bottom half of that salary range (so $20-22.50 per hour) because the upper half of the salary range is considered “room for raises,” and if you hit the top number, you’d be ineligible for raises until you changed jobs.

  171. I'm A Little Teapot*

    There’s a new management person on my team, and my observation is that she and I have somewhat similar personalities, and it’s the type that can come across as rude, disrespectful, etc. Clashes are going to happen, its just HOW that’s important. Well, right now, we’re clashing. Massively.

    Mgr is being very intrusive into the project, I do not need the involvement, and yesterday she completely took over and derailed my meeting. I have to have another meeting to get the information I need kind of derailment. I’m pissed about that – my project is time sensitive, and there’s a potential problem that if it plays out could be really bad. This morning, mgr was asking for detailed status, after asking yesterday. And generally trying to tell me what I already know but she was using different words and she didn’t connect that we were saying the same things. (I do this, I can recognize it!) And also jumping to “this is really bad finding!”, while I’m sitting there saying, essentially, ffs, I’m in the beginning of this, there’s a LOT more I need to figure out, you’re jumping to conclusions. My response to her had a strong undercurrent of “butt out”. Overall, clearly not ideal interaction.

    I do plan to have a conversation with mgr next week (away from desks!), and apologize for how I came across and try to get things back on track. I’m frustrated because she and I actually have a fairly similar amount of experience (timewise), I’m not in management due to my choice, and she’s focused on the IT side where I’ve focused more on operational/financial/regulatory, but within that I’ve got a lot of IT knowledge as well. Basically, I know more than she does on this topic overall, but she doesn’t seem to realize that. And she’s making this harder than it needs to be.

  172. softcastle mccormick*

    I’m really, really excited, because after two rounds of interviews and a sizable project, I have been invited to a day-long interview/experience for a dream position at my company! I currently work in a branch, and this would be an exciting opportunity to work with a team I love in our HQ.

    Does anyone have any tips on how to survive all-day corporate interviews? I feel really comfortable with the hiring manager and team members I’ll be with (it’s an internal position and I’ve worked on and off with them in a cross-functional capacity), but I’ve never had such a lengthy interview in my life! This would be such a step up for my second post-college job, and I want to put my best foot forward in every respect. Thanks in advance!

    1. merp*

      Bring snacks! Seriously. They’ll surely be planning for food too, but you never know. At least for me, it was a big relief to know I had something on me.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I’m seconding this – snacks!!! Make sure to eat something in the morning (ideally with protein, but if you’re not a big breakfast person or are too nervous, just eat whatever you can get down) and bring some protein bars in your bag. Even if they have breakfast/lunch arranged, you’ll likely be too busy talking or too nervous to eat. In my case, I ordered what I thought was a salad and turned out to be some deconstructed monstrosity with one (1) uncut lettuce leaf and a lot of huge pieces of meat… I didn’t actually eat much at the interview as I was not in the mental state to deal with that plate of food!

        Go with the extra-processed snack bars, not anything that will crumble all over your suit.

        Also, remember that while each interview session is a fresh start, they’ll surely be comparing notes. You don’t want to have the same exact answers for each interviewer (to the point it makes them question whether you’d just memorized your answer), but you also want to paint a consistent picture of what you’d be like on the team.

        Finally, your interview starts the moment you set foot on the property and ends when you get in your car to go home. Be respectful and kind to everyone, no matter their role. If you’re traveling out of town, give yourself extra extra time to get there and have a backup plan in case your suit gets wrinkled in transit/your heel breaks/ you encounter travel delays.

        Congratulations on the interview, and good luck!!

    2. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      This is random, but make sure your outfit is comfortable and doesn’t require fidgeting, etc. and make sure it won’t get wrinkled/sloppy looking quickly. I hate when I walk into the bathroom mid-day and realize my shirt material looks terrible – I’d hate to have that happen in an interview!

      Also, seconding the snacks, though bring gum or mints to accompany them!

    3. Krickets*

      And if you wear makeup, don’t forget to use a setting spray and check on it or do some touchups during your bathroom breaks. All the best!

    4. Sherm*

      The good news is that it may go a whole lot faster than you are imagining, but you do have to watch out that you maintain your energy and focus. Toward the end of the day of my all-day interview, I found myself just saying “Uh huh, uh huh” to an interviewer’s remarks, without replying with something more insightful. It perhaps would be helpful to research the heck out of the position and write all your questions and thoughts as some notes you can refer to. Be prepared to hear the same things over and over, and say the same things over and over. The notes may help you keep the conversations fresh.

  173. TWBB*

    How do I talk to an intern about taking time off and calling in sick? It’s happened multiple times in the few weeks she has been with us. While it does not impact our actual work, I want to make sure I am providing appropriate feedback to help her be successful once she graduates. If it were an employee it’d be a simple “you don’t have time off accrued yet” but we’ve historically been flexible with intern schedules because it doesn’t directly impact our outcomes.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      However you do it, please say something to her. I’m an older student with lots of work experience who is completing my degree and I’m currently doing an internship with a bunch of students who are younger and newer to the workforce and this is a huge issue. We constantly have people trying to get people to cover their shift for minor colds or because their friends are doing something and they want to go too and unfortunately it’s not getting addressed. I’m afraid they will think that’s okay when they get into a more professional role and it’s really not something I normally see accepted.

    2. merp*

      Not to be devil’s advocate, but if you’ve usually been flexible in the past, and it’s not affecting your work, why say something to this specific person now? Do you think the intern is taking time off for inappropriate reasons? Is it because she’s new and you don’t want her to think all jobs are so flexible? If she’s going through something but not revealing it for a variety of reasons, would it change your feelings?

        1. merp*

          But does “multiple times in a few weeks” mean every other day, or 3 times in a month? Sometimes someone’s health doesn’t care if it’s the first month of a new job.

          I’m not saying that TWBB shouldn’t bring it up, just that it might be worthwhile to bring it up with the general tone that there might be a good reason for it. Maybe I’m wrong and she’s taking vacations constantly, I dunno.

    3. CupcakeCounter*

      Flexibility is great but you also need to be teaching workplace norms. When they ask for time off (if it isn’t a call/text/VM in the morning) outline that if they were a FT employee this early in their tenure you’d be unable to approve it because they hadn’t accrued the PTO yet. If they mention taking it unpaid as a FT employee say that it is an option but multiple requests like that early in a position can really impact how an employee is viewed. Differentiate sick days from taking a Friday off to take a long weekend at a lake.
      If the intern is getting college credit for the internship you have a ready made script:
      “In order to continue this internship and approve your college credit we need to make sure you get X number of hours over the Y number of weeks you are here. The time off you have already taken is going to make that extremely difficult to achieve and we cannot extend your internship so if you want the credit, you need to be here.”
      From there you can add that real work is similar – you get paid for 52 weeks each year with x number of those days/week paid time off. You are expected to be there the remaining days you are paid.

    4. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      We had an intern with many, many late mornings, call times, alongside other issues. We sat her down, and told her that while we were flexible on the number of hours she works, we saw this as an opportunity to learn normal office policies and style. We were pretty open, and told her that while she was here, we needed a consistent schedule (even if it’s not important).

      From there, it did eventually devolve until we put her on a performance plan and fired her after a month or two. I recommend explaining the issue, what normal office policies would be, and letting her know that as part of the education an internship provides, she needs to abide by normal office policies.

      Part of your role as an intern’s manager is to help them learn how to work in an office! If she can’t work on a consistent schedule, better for her to get that slap on her wrist while she’s in an internship, versus getting fired from a full-time job down the line.

  174. StudentA*

    Not asking for advice, asking what you’d do in this situation and your line of thinking.

    You got offered a temp to perm job that pays $39/hour. If it becomes permanent, you’ll get great benefits. You accept it. Let’s call this job A.

    You’re waiting to hear on next steps on job B. You haven’t told them yet you’ve accepted another job. They actually asked in the interview if you’d be interested in freelancing or a part time job if things don’t pan out. This job maxes out at $65,000 but you’d negotiate and are told you’re an excellent and top candidate. Here’s why you care: it’s completely remote and that matters a lot to you.

    What would you do? I know it’s hard to say without more details, but just based on these details I did provide, what do you think!

    1. animaniactoo*

      Can the freelance/part-time be done around the temp-to-perm job?

      If so, take Job A and do the freelance/part-time in the hopes of establishing a reputation with Job B and getting a line in to a full time job with them.

      If not, startup with Job A and only work with Job B on a full-time offer. Will the difference in commuting/other external expenses be enough to make Job B salary worthwhile if that comes through? If so, Job A is a temp and not guaranteed – that’s the whole point of them not just making you permanent now. It’s okay to cut short a temp contract if something better comes along.

    2. CatCat*

      I’d stick with A while looking for full-time work with remote options. The pay difference is just too great. $81k versus whatever it would be for a part-time basis on $65k… let’s say 3/5 time… that’s $39k. I can see myself caring a lot about remote work, but not $42k caring about it.

      1. CatCat*

        If it were full-time permanent with great benefits at B as an employee, I could see taking B.

        Otherwise, A and look for full-time remote work opportunities elsewhere.

      2. LQ*

        This is where I’m at. I may not care enough about remote work to be a good placeholder here, but that’s a big pay difference. (Also to me maxes out at 65 doesn’t mean I’d come in starting there but I’m coming from the land of unions and government where no one starts at the top of the band, and the top is actually the top.)

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Which job will be more likely to give you the life, position and income you want in the future?

      If I have to pick between two jobs, the one that looks the most likely to have a good and lengthy future for me is the one I’d lean toward.

      If the future looks equally bright for both jobs, then I would start to think about my own comfort in present time. Where do I want to live, how much commute time do I find reasonable and so on.

  175. ZarinC*

    How can I help a student with a horrible reference? Background: I am the program director of a college research internship program. Our program has funding that supports 8 full time paid research internships in local laboratories, so students that are accepted into the program will solicit interviews to find a host laboratory. Usually this is not too difficult as they are coming in with their own funding, plus I have several laboratories that have hosted my interns in the past that are always willing to interview if a student is having trouble finding something.

    The problem: one of my students did a previous internship in a laboratory (although it was only part time and unpaid) which did not go so well. Apparently, the student’s lab skills and general performance were fine, but communication was a huge issue which led to problems with her supervisor. The supervisor took out a lot of frustration on the student (yelling, abusive language) and the student would cry frequently. In the end, the student did manage to finish a down-sized version of her project successfully, and the supervisor told her that she reached expectations doing the experiments and techniques, but not in working as a team, and that she should work on her communication skills in future positions.

    However, now the supervisor is apparently saying very negative things about the student. At least 4 different labs have interviewed and liked her, but have suddenly declined to take her after checking her references, even after I advised her to take the supervisor’s name off her list of references. I guess they saw the name of the laboratory on her resume and called anyway.
    Should I advise her to remove the previous internship from her resume completely? The bad part is that is her only experience in the field.

    I have gone through most of my contacts already and I’m getting desperate to find a place for her. If she can’t find a laboratory, it looks bad for our program as we will have to send the support money back to our funder. It would be equally difficult to find a replacement. So I really need a strategy to help her find a laboratory!

    1. animaniactoo*

      How has she handled talking about the experience she had at that job and how she would expect to be different at the jobs she’s interviewing for?

    2. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Honestly, if that supervisor is trying to blackball the student, that might be legal-territory. But if the student isn’t being upfront that there was a really bad communication problem with that mgr, and student has taken it to heart and worked to improve x and y, that might help.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      I think she’ll have to take that experience right off. It sounds like it wasn’t part of her current program anyway and it doesn’t put her in a good light in any way if her performance was just sufficient and her reference is generally negative. She’s better off if her resume indicates that she has zero experience rather than a bad one, especially if she’s going for another internship, not a full time job. She can consider this next internship her first one for later hiring purposes.

      If that’s not possible, for example if she needs to show demonstrable lab experience to be considered for next-level internships, then she’ll have to find a way to get ahead of it by bringing it up in interviews as a big learning experience.

  176. What’s My Name Again?*

    Any Project Managers/Creative Project Managers out there? I’m wondering if anyone has any advice about getting into the industry. I graduated college a little over a year ago (just got back from a year working abroad) with a graphic design degree but discovered in my last year or so of college that I would actually have a lot more fun/be better at project management than design. I’m thinking creative project management specifically. I was the editor for my college yearbook one year (and loved it!) and took some project management classes but now I’m wondering what else to do to gain more experience. Most job ads I see want 5+ years of experience and the PMP certifications want you to have experience as well. Do I need to go back to school for a masters? Work as a graphic designer for a while? Would being a project coordinator be a step in the right direction? What would be the most helpful software for me to learn? It seems like people get to be project managers from so many different places that there’s no clear path! And creative project management seems to be more niche than engineering and construction jobs. Any advice is appreciated!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Are you sure you want to be a Project Manager or do you want to be a manager of a creative team? I ask because there is generally a misconception of what project management entails. PM is writing up charters, running ROI’s, managing multiple teams across organizations, nagging executives, and being responsible for the development and roll out of million dollar projects that take years to close. That’s why job ads want so many years of experience and the PMP. I’d recommend reading a few books on project management (I found “IT Project Management On Track from Start to Finish” a good start even for the non IT crowd) to see if the nitty-gritty parts interest you.
      If you enjoyed running the yearbook, then that would be more aligned with team management. You may want to look into supplemental management courses to beef up your resume and then maybe see if Scrum is interesting to you. Scrum management is very popular now and is all about taking the cream of the crop and guiding them to great things. If you received a cert in Scrum, you would probably be able to find a job doing the creative team work you are looking for.
      But maybe you will like full-on Project Management! Who knows! But every project manager I have met ends up hating it. It is lots of stress, endless work, and your job can be at stake if the project doesn’t meet the deadline/budget. I think they would have enjoyed managing a division of the company (people/directives) more.

      1. What’s My Name Again?*

        This is great advice! Thank you!
        I’m honestly not sure exactly which role would fit me best yet so I will definitely look at that book and look into Scrum! I know I would love helping guide members of creative teams, that was one of the things I really liked about the yearbook. I also liked the budgeting/planning/scheduling part of the yearbook and nothing really stressed me out too much – although I realize that a $50,000 budget is miles away from a multimillion dollar one! Mostly I’d like to work with creative people but not do any designing myself. Come to find out, when I do design work I burn out so fast it’s ridiculous! I can do spreadsheets and meetings and management stuff all day though!

    2. Not Peggy Olsen*

      Look at advertising agencies for traffic coordinator or production coordinator positions. They are essentially project managers for agencies.

  177. Trying*

    I need advice: I’ve gotten into a can’t win situation at work, and I don’t know how to get out of it. My boss wants me to make decisions, but when I do she says they’re the wrong ones. So, I’ve resorted to being passive and waiting for her to tell me what to do, which also bothers her because she has a lot on her plate. How can I break this cycle? Being passive also bothers me, as I don’t feel productive, but it seems when I try to branch out on my own I don’t do it the way she’d like me to. I’ve been at this job for over a year and overall I try to think what she would like me to do, and do that, but even so, it doesn’t go well every time and she has to “clean up” after me.

    Before you say it, yes, clearly this isn’t a good fit, and I’ve been job hunting for months, but I haven’t found something yet, so I need to find a way to make this better. I’d appreciate any advice on how to approach this.

    1. animaniactoo*

      Ask her if you can have a broad picture meeting. Note that you’ve been willing to make decisions on your own before, but every decision you have made appears not to be the right one in terms of how she would have liked you to handle it. So you’d like to figure out where your decision-making process is going wrong so that you can choose correctly going forward and be more in line with what she wants. What does she want you to factor into the decision specifically? What has highest priority in terms of results? Which methods are her preferred methods? Does it change from case to case and is highly individual, or are there some broad general guidelines that you can operate by? If it’s highly individual, can she go through some of those with you and discuss factors with you so that you understand the pieces better?

      Do a lot of note-taking. Ask to cross-check decisions with her before taking actions. So that you’re bringing her what you think is the right decision and just asking for confirmation that you should proceed that way, a middle ground between acting without her input and doing nothing while waiting for her direction.

    2. LQ*

      When she says they are the wrong decisions does she give any feedback about them? Even if she doesn’t can you stop and look at the decisions she didn’t like and what she wanted instead? Can you find any patterns? What decisions does she let you make? (I’m sure there are some, even if they are very small, trying to make sure you don’t just highlight the ones that are wrong.) I’d guess the ones that you make that aren’t wrong she doesn’t explicitly say are right she just never mentions them. (And you may have even stopped thinking of them as decisions.)

      Have you tried writing up something like a decision record? It might give you a place to go over the decision with your boss and get feedback. Even if the decisions aren’t formal ones, trying writing it up. Even if you still wait for her to make it having that document will be better for both of you.

      This may sound silly, but are you trying to make the decision you think she’d make? Or are you trying to make the best decision you can? I get about 15% hit when I try to make the decision I think my boss wants. But when I really stop and think as best I can about what decision I’d make if I were in his job, I do a lot better. (A LOT better.) And even when I’m wrong it doesn’t turn out as badly.

    3. another scientist*

      Have you tried to present her with your premade decision but she gets to approve it?
      “Boss, based on Y, I am planning to move forward by doing X next week. Let me know if that’s allright with you”.

  178. Invisible Fish*

    For people who have done the same job for quite a while, how do you keep yourself from getting bored and therefore disinterested, which then leads to some lesser quality work? I’m specifically looking for suggestions about what to do day to day. (No need to suggest asking for different duties or new tasks or doing training to allow me to add new things to my skill set- I already do those things, and that’s working out fine. It’s the day to day stuff that can’t change/won’t change. I work in education, and certain things have to be done a certain way at a certain time, in patterns that repeat every week/month/grading period/semester/year. There’s nothing wrong with those things, but after chaperoning the choir Christmas concert for the 15th time, you get kind of … blasé? It becomes a slog, and the people I work with and the students o serve deserve to get my best.)

    1. Sleepy*

      Oh, I feel you. I also have this challenge, but I’ve observed some people who are better at it than me and I notice that they give themselves some kind of challenge to do things even a little bit differently each time. For example, a guy I work with always has to give a speech at a yearly event. Attendees are totally different each year so I would probably fall back on the same speech, but he challenges himself to find a new way to explain the same concepts each year. It’s impressive and I aspire to this.

      If you are chaperoning the same concert, can you challenge yourself to compliment 5 kids on something specific to their singing, or to meet 5 new parents each time?

  179. coffee cup*

    Weird thing but my company linked to my LinkedIn profile from the website without asking if that was OK (they did it with some others, too). I had no idea until a colleague told me. I know it isn’t major and LinkedIn is work-related but I make a big big effort to keep work and personal stuff separate and I don’t appreciate that they decided they could do that without consulting me. I had LinkedIn before I worked there so it’s not a company-specific thing. I don’t know why, it just makes me a bit uncomfortable. But I can’t think of a way to mention it without seeming weird or like I am overreacting. Which maybe I am!

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I also think it’s weird that they just did it with no mention to the people they were linking to, but I think I’d just raise an eyebrow and internally think….oooooooookay then, and then move on.

      1. coffee cup*

        Yeah, that’s probably what I’ll do! I just find a lot of what they do at the moment annoying, so this is just one of many irritants. They’re big on showing that we’re ‘real people’, but I just have no interest in any clients being able to see what I look like.

    2. Anonandanon*

      They can just do that without you needing to approve the connection because you work for the company?

      1. coffee cup*

        I don’t know if you’re asking me or telling me. I’m not sure what working there has to do with it. It isn’t a work profile or work connecting they’re linking to, it’s personal. And aside from approval, just being informed would have been nice.

  180. Karen from Finance*

    Small victory today.

    There’s this cross-area project that we’d been working on, and by “we” I mean “I”: it’s been a month since we started and I’m the only person who’s done any work on the shared file, I’ve even started building the structure for the leads of other areas (simplifying it to the simplest “your input goes HERE” terms) out of sheer boredom/frustration. (-> This is the same project I’d mentioned 2 weeks ago as the one that now became “my” project, if anyone’s following.)

    So today we have a meeting and Mr Asshole starts complaining about how the whole structure is wrong. He didn’t do a thing other than nitpick my formats in the entire month, and he started the conversation by saying not that he had questions, or that he disagreed, or that he had a better ideas, but saying several times to my boss and I that the whole thing is just plain WRONG. My boss and I made our case to why I did it this way, but he wouldn’t budge.

    So I calmly said that it’s so ingrained in the whole structure at this point that we can’t change it without breaking the whole file, but that he’s welcome to make his own version parallell to this one, as I don’t seem to be following him (silly me!)… to which my boss said it’s a good idea, this way we can see both versions and test them both, and see which one actually works best.

    And all of a sudden, my way wasn’t so unforgivably wrong and it wasn’t so important, who knew….

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Eh, sometimes you have to go right into it with them.

      I had a recent conversation with a similar solution.

      Person: Why are you saying we have to do X, why can’t we do Y?
      Me: Well, of course, if someone would like Y they can set that up. I had to do X anyway for another reason, so I thought I would try to be a good-egg and bring our group along also. But, sure, if others would prefer Y then they can set that up.
      Person: ooohhhhh.

  181. I Work on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from the Hellmouth! Even though I have barely been on the Hellmouth proper this week, a lot has happened. To what I am sure is the surprise of no one who knows anything about the current Hellmouth situation (the Hellmouth management company is going to cease to exist at the end of this month, the transition has… basically been a dumpster fire), the disorganization and poor communication has continued. But more importantly, I am beginning to suspect that the Hellmouth itself knows that I am trying to leave and is actively trying to thwart me. Not just because of the vast and unusual number of kamikaze squirrels trying to throw themselves under the wheels of my car, either (don’t worry, my reflexes are good and no members of the Squirrel Army has been lost due to me). And if this starts to get to long, I will chunk and nest the text in the comments so as not to annoy anyone who is sick to death of hearing about the Hellmouth.

    We had been told two for sure, totally definite things for this week: That we would be on our own for the whole week, and that our systems would be going dark no sooner than this Sunday. Of course, neither of these things would prove to be true.

    When I came in early on Monday, Regional VP was already there and announced that she was going to be with us until 11:30 on Wednesday. Regional VP is unpleasant, does nothing to help, gives frivolous busywork that stops real work from being finished, and tends to bark orders to us that can not possibly be performed by us due to lack of access and/or training, so we were all super excited to see her. BUT! I knew I was going to be using my sick time to call in on Tuesday (the company is paying out any accrued PTO and work has made me feel pretty sick, so I figured… mental health days count, might as well cash those hours in) and that I would have an interview for a job that would allow me to escape, so I decided to do my best to not let her make me feel ground down. Which was really hard, guys! I was able to rally before my interview, but it took a lot of concerted effort because I have just become so increasingly depressed and anxious.

    1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      But! Even though Tuesday morning was a bit grim, come Tuesday afternoon I managed to pull myself into a good headspace, and the interview went really well! While it IS a position in property management, the place has great reviews, no one has been SHOT there, and I actually really liked the manager and his assistant. It seems like a good place to recover from my Hellmouth PTSD, I know I could do an amazing job for them, and I would be able to continue to look for a non-property management position without feeling exhausted and desperate. And the lovely thing is that the manager made it pretty clear that, unless HR throws my out for some reason, I should be getting an offer, potentially as early as TODAY. And if I get it, friends, I am taking it. My notice letter (stating that I am leaving for health reasons and barring complications my last day will be the 28th—because the company ceases to exist at the end of the month anyway, so why not?) it typed, addressed, and I am just waiting for an offer so I can hit send. YAY!

      But even better, two hours after that interview I got a call from a state agency whose mission I am actually EXTREMELY passionate about asking me to come in and interview for a position this Thursday. HECK YES. I determined that I would burn the last of my remaining sick time and call in, so I could prepare for the interview all day Wednesday and up until go time on Thursday. But when I tried to contact Regional VP to call in on Wednesday, I received a kind of ugly text message letting me know that even if I was dead I was going to need to come in on Thursday because all computer work would need to be completed and checks would need to be run because they had just decided that that systems would actually go dark Thursday night instead of Sunday. (Note: Regional VP had all of the needed accesses and also the ability to run checks, and according to reports from the temps spent her time in the office on Wednesday openly job hunting and also taking it upon herself to rip through my desk as if looking for hidden diamonds and then THROW AWAY ALL OF MY POST-ITS AND NOTES ON THINGS THAT NEEDED TO BE DONE IN THE COMPUTER AS SOON AS I WAS BACK). Be there all day on Thursday or ELSE seemed to be the very clear message. Also that the new company had been announced (it is a company that I have actually worked for before and left because of extreme sexism and dudebro culture—also, a female manager at that company once told me that my below the knee, not overly tight Michael Kors pencil skirt should not be worn to work again because I “have an inappropriate shape for pencil skirts”), but that I could not tell residents the new company name because “it could change at any minute,” although my big takeaway was that even being hospitalized would not excuse not coming in and getting three days of work entered.

    2. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      And so I came in on Thursday, looking like death and wearing jeggings and a t-shirt. I texted everyone on the property team and said I was only in to enter necessary computer info and run the money and that I was extremely contagious and would not be able to do anything else and would be leaving as soon as everything was completed. (The awful maintenance supervisor then accidentally replied to the group text saying some VERY unflattering things about me, to which I responded with “Well, hi there! I think you sent this to the wrong text group” and ever since he has literally been treating me like an invisible ghost, which I have chosen to find hilarious—no eye contact or acknowledgement even when we are in the same room and he is speaking to the person next to me). Of course, the checkscan machine stopped working entirely after one batch, and I discovered that there were surprise things in the computer system that took about two extra hours to fix. I fixed them, emailed Regional VP telling her that I was still ill, should not be at work, and that I needed her to advise me on what to do with the few checks left ASAP as we were set up with no local banks and I needed to leave immediately… and copied the HR rep (I am sure the fact that, for the very first time, Regional VP responded promptly and pleasantly was a total coincidence). Her reply didn’t really tell me what to do, though, so… I replied letting her know she could send instructions to That New Dude and peaced out.
      Everything that could have gone wrong did. I was stuck at work hours longer than expected, when I got home the water to my complex had been shut off (thank god it came back on at the last possible minute for me to shower and wash my face, etc), my GPS stopped working correctly, I decided maybe I should take some of my anxiety medicine before I got out of the car and somehow managed to launch a thousand pills into the air (and throughout my car), on the walk in I was buffeted by huge gusts of wind that I swear made my hair stand straight up… and I made it to the lobby, smoothed my hair into a relatively normal hair shape, and went in and had what I think was a great interview! I think I have a very strong chance of making it into the top three for the follow up interview with the Big Boss. So YAY! It will be weeks before I even know if I make that cut (it could conceivably be a four month hiring process), but just having making it this far and having a good interview has really given me hope that even if I ultimately don’t get THIS position (which I want very, very badly—I truly am passionate about the work done by this agency), I really WILL eventually land a good job outside of the dreaded property management industry.
      So today I am here, and I am honestly just waiting to see if the Class A property from Tuesday calls with an offer so I can hit send on that email. I absolutely do not want to apply to work for Dudebro Inc on the Hellmouth, so please cross your fingers for me!

      1. TooTiredToThink*

        I knew you didn’t want to; but I’d been hoping for awhile that you could find another property management position – I mean; I want you to find something you love; but it sounded to me like, at least for now, it would be easier to find this kind of position. I hope you get it so you can leave that awful place.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Well, I researched the heck out of them and they seem fairly okay. I’m trying to keep in mind that this is just a temporary jump backwards, not a defeat.

          Also, fun note: The assistant manager there was once sued by my former Hell Boss, who blamed her for a different time Hell Boss was fired!

          1. animaniactoo*

            It’s not a jump backwards – it’s a side move to put you on a better path to move forward. Think Chutes & Ladders – some spaces are neutral, some move you downwards and some move you upwards. But sometimes, you want to bypass the square that would move you up to the next level, because the square 4 spaces down will move you up 2 levels.

      3. Meißner Porcelain Teapot*

        Crossing all fingers and toes and waving braids into my hair for extra crossing power (so much for multi-tasking). I really hope you’ll be able to escape from the Hellmouth before Dudebro Inc takes over.

        Also, I salute your mad driving skills, because if I were in your place, the tires of my car would probably be wrapped in squirrel fur rather than rubber.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! And yes, avoiding the furry little monsters has been a HUGE challenge. I am not great with things like “coordination” and “spatial awareness”…

            1. Troutwaxer*

              The armadillos are Pestilence, your old manager was War, the company closing is Death, and your difficulties finding a new job are Famine. Together, they are the Four Squirrels of the Hellmouth-calypse.

      4. Bee's Knees*

        Ha! The hellmouth totally knows you are trying to leave. Once you do (soon!) if you ever decide to drive by again, it will not be there. Like Brigadoon, but evil.

        And your dumpster fire transition sounds a lot worse than ours.

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          IT DOES. IT KNOWS. I SWEAR IT KNOWS.

          Re: Dumpster fire: I just had to update the lady calling to set up our “Fireside Chat” with the new management company on a whole bunch of stuff that either Regional VP or literally anyone else at corporate should have let her know and she had to go and reschedule flights for 10 people. Way to go, guys. Way to go.

      5. CatCat*

        I’m on pins and needles to know if an offer will come through from the better property management company.

        So glad your state agency interview went so well! I hope it results in an offer, but if not, it’s so great that you are heartened about your future chances. Those future chances are really good! (The wheels of government hiring are just incredibly slow.)

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          So. Am. I! I started psycho checking my phone about an hour ago, even though I know that is ridiculous and I probably won’t hear back until Monday. But I want to hit send on my notice SO BADLY.

      6. Veryanon*

        I’m totally laughing at DudeBro Inc. That should be a real company name. At any rate, best of luck!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! And can you imagine the company t-shirts for DudeBro Inc? They would all come with the sleeves cut off.

          1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

            Well, since someone was shot at the place where I’m working a few weeks ago and I have actually been physically attacked by a resident here…

      8. Mimmy*

        Crossing all crossable body parts for you!!!

        Also, I wanted to ask for clarification: If I’m reading your update right, your current employer was bought by another company? Would you be laid off if you stayed? (not that you’d want to…)

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Not exactly… they weren’t bought, they literally decided not to exist anymore. There is a parent company that will still own the properties that is connected to (but somehow separate from?) the management company, which will be no more. A new management company has been hired, and in this instance current employees are expected to apply for their positions with them and go through the whole application/screening process–although they also could just as easily have cleaned house and brought in their own people.

      9. LadyAbhorsen*

        I am brand new to AAM and Open Threads but my god am I immediately invested in this saga. Best of luck to you!

        1. Jen S. 2.0*

          If you’d like to begin at the beginning, the link is in my screen name / handle.

          I located it again by searching an exact phrase I recalled from the letter, “wall full of dead squirrels.”

            1. Mimmy*

              Thank you, I was wondering about the origins of this story myself!

              By the way, I think Alison turned off the ability to include links in your handle because she felt that people (not you necessarily) were using it as a way to bypass moderation.

      11. Nita*

        Fingers crossed for you! I hope all our collective well wishes are way stronger than the Hellmouth!

        1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

          Thank you! If anything could defeat the Hellmouth, it’s the collective good vibes here. :)

          Or maybe fire.

      12. Anne (with an “e”)*

        I am anxiously awaiting the day your handle becomes “I *Used* to Work on a Hellmouth”

      13. It’s All Good*

        I have a great feeling that people from all over the world will soon be toasting to your new job!

    4. Batgirl*

      I want you with me when the apocalypse comes!
      Also, why do some people hate the Post Its?! They are here to help; they mean you no harm!
      I am just fuming over the pencil skirt comment. What kind of shape was she talking about, a female one?

      1. I Work on a Hellmouth*

        I would be a GREAT Apocalypse buddy! In addition to having a lot of practice surviving Hellmouth attacks and remaining calm, I cook yummy things, can sew, and can also accurately recount an extensive catalog of movies and TV shows.

        Yeah, the pencil skirt comment remains one of the most memorable offensive things said to me to this day. Even if I wasn’t already totally over the Hellmouth, that one instance (which kind of summed up the company culture) is why I have zero interest in working with the incoming management team.

  182. ConstantlyEmbarrassed*

    How do you get over the embarrassment when the company you work for … isn’t necessarily good at what they do?

    I really enjoy my job and find the industry I work in fascinating, however, the product that my company produces is subpar. What makes me cringe is when people make negative comments on our LinkedIn posts, or tweet nasty things about our product. Most of their comments aren’t even blown out of proportion – they’re legitimate concerns and complaints about areas in which we fail. We’re small enough that everyone on our team knows immediately when something negative has been published online about the flaws in what we do, and it makes me sick to my stomach knowing that my name is attached to something people do not like. Is there any way to cope with this aside from taking their feedback and continuing to work toward a better tomorrow?

    1. WMM*

      I feel like that depends entirely on the *whys* involved. Why is it a sub-par product? Is it because your company is cutting corners or because they are new to the marketplace? Are they trying to create a new, lower price point for the good, and that price simply doesn’t pay for all the bells and whistles? Are they trying to break into an industry where it is just really hard to be a small company starting out?

      No product in the world is unbreakable, free, and always available. Figure out why your company is positioned where it is, and whether you can stand behind that. If your company is selling overpriced, cheap crap that will only go on to pollute the oceans, consider hunting for a job you can be proud of while you’re paying your bills and taking care of your life. If your company is developing a product that makes sense in its niche or along whatever path of growth you’re on, that is something to be proud (or at least satisfied) to be a part of.

    2. Krickets*

      I realized that as I got older, I gave lesser…frequent thoughts to being embarrassed about a company and what they put out there. That’s because I started dissociating my own self from the business, though I want to always produce quality work.

      What helps to know is that if you are not a customer-facing (traditionally) role, that staying behind-the-scenes and not attaching your name publicly to a lot of things might help lessen that embarrassment so that people won’t know it’s “you” per se. Keep track of your growth/performance in the company where you’ve contributed positively to projects so that you can update your resume and look for new jobs–if it’s an option. :)

    3. Mazzy*

      I’ve kind of been there. I think you’re nervous about being caught off guard in social situation where you just say you work somewhere and you feel there is an awkward moment. I think you will feel better if you have a little speech prepared in your head for what you do there, and how whatever is wrong with the product isn’t your fault and say specifically what you do there and how you make the company better.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      I’d have to look at how the company responds to those comments. Do they ignore them or are there plans in the works to do better?
      I can live with having a plan for a better future. I can’t live with head-in-the-sand stuff.

      If this discomfort has been going on for a while, then it might be time to move on.

  183. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

    My crazy boss just ran over to my team’s area, and excitedly asked if “anyone wanted to play a card game in her office.”

    What.

    Three of my colleagues resigned themselves to go, because if we’d all said no, things would have been bad – she turns on people for very minor acts.

    Then, suddenly, rap music was playing in her office? What on earth is going on in there. It’s been a half hour now, and they’re in there with the door shut, occasionally laughing quite loudly.

    Another Friday in my bonkers office…

    1. Roz Doyle*

      You need to give us an update on what happened, haha. Also, love your nickname, hilarious.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Rap music plays from my office frequently…so I’m just invested in knowing what’s going on with this “Card game”. I hope it’s cards against humanity because that’s my best guess.

    3. Half April Ludgate, Half Leslie Knope*

      Ah, I forgot to update this! Turns out they were literally just playing a card game, and she wanted to share a rap song her son was a fan of (her son is…seven, I think?)

      I think the game was called Pitch. It was super weird, I think she just wanted to hang out with people.

  184. Justme, The OG*

    So, what do you all do when asked in an interview about expected compensation when the job listing says nothing about their range and Glassdoor or searching was otherwise no help?

    1. Ella P.*

      I would mention a range, ‘I’ve been looking at roles in the ____ to ____ range’… emphasizing that I’m flexible on salary, I’m looking for the right fit in terms of work… and then ask them what range were they considering for the position. Hate the salary secrecy but I say don’t ask, don’t get ;)

    2. Karen from Finance*

      Be honest about what salary you’re looking for, give a range of that’s what you’re more comfortable with. Think about the lowest salary you’d be willing to accept, and round it up just a little.

      If that number ends up being too high it’s fine, because you wouldn’t want a job that pays less than that anyway. What sucks is the potential of leaving money on the table, but at this point and with no market information I think that’s a risk you’d have to take. :/

  185. Ciela*

    I definitely had a “what would Alison do?” moment today.
    One of my co-workers is terminally ill, stage 4 stomach cancer. He had been at least checking in on days he hasn’t been working, but we hadn’t heard from him since Monday.
    Co-worker has not been responding to e-mails, and will not share his phone number with anyone. He and my husband have been friends for 35 years, and even we don’t have his number.
    His parents’ landline from the 70’s was no longer in service.
    So I googled, and found his brother’s cell phone number. It was a “I know this is a weird call, but we’re very concerned about your brother.” Co-worker’d dad did call back a short while later with an update.
    Honestly, since co-worker lives alone, I was concerned that he might have fallen and been to weak to get back up, or passed away in his sleep, or anything.

    I think in these circumstances Alison may have been okay with me tracking down family?

    1. Justme, The OG*

      I think given the circumstances and that your husband has known him for quite a while (this is personal as well as business related) that you’re totally fine.

    2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Yes, it’s fine. I’ve worked in more squishy-relationship based fields, and there for every rule, there is an exception where the exception is the correct thing to do and following the rule would not be.

    3. Meißner Porcelain Teapot*

      I would say “no, still not appropriate”. If he did not leave his phone number or that of a next of kin with his job and not even with your husband, who has known him for 35 years, then there’s probably a good reason for it. It sounds like everything turned out “ok” (as far as things under these circumstances can turn out ok), but this is just plain boundary crossing. Your heart was in the right place, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. What if his family had not even known that he was sick or how sick, because he did not want them to know, for whatever reason? What if he was estranged from his brother by choice, i. e. because he never ever wanted to have contact with him? Those are just two reasons I can think of why this was Potentially A Very Bad Idea. At best, I would be really weirded out if I were in your colleague’s shoes.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        Since Celia’s husband and the coworker have been friends for 35 years, I think it’s safe to assume that Celia would’ve known if he was estranged from his family.

    4. Lemon Zinger*

      If you aren’t his manager, I’m not sure it was appropriate to contact his family. Even then… probably not appropriate.

    5. LGC*

      Not a mind reader, but…it sounds like it was appropriate. If he was checking in on off days reliably, it sounds like you had good reason to worry about his well being if he didn’t, and it doesn’t sound like you were very intrusive. (You did track down his family after a few days, but that was because you didn’t have other options.)

      It also depends on how you handle things – you probably don’t want to lead with worrying about him because he has terminal cancer, but it’d be appropriate to say that you hadn’t heard from him since Monday. (I trust you know that, though!)

    6. Miranda*

      Since there’s a long personal friendship with you, I think trying to check on his safety is understandable – I think I’d have tried to visit his home before contacting possibly distant and estranged relatives, though.

    7. animaniactoo*

      Well, your options were that or asking the police to do a wellness check. I think it falls entirely on which you think he’d have preferred.

      But yes, you weren’t going to extensive efforts to try to track down someone who was simply normally absent or it had only been one day. You had genuine cause for concern and you acknowledged to the brother that it was an unusual thing, not some run-of-the-mill could happen any time you randomly couldn’t get in touch with him call.

    8. Ciela*

      His dad and brother have been taking him to chemo, so I’m sure they’re well aware of how ill he is. He claims the reason for not giving out his phone number to anyone is because he doesn’t want telemarketers to call him. Weird, but that goes along with a much larger pattern of quirky behavior.

      If he didn’t live alone, we would have been much less concerned.

      1. Karen from Finance*

        In this particular case, I think what you did was fine. You had legitimate cause to be worried. Did your coworker check back in?

    10. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ignore people saying that it’s inappropriate.

      When someone breaks a pattern [either they no-call/no-show when they’re perfectly healthy or they fail to check-in when they’re ill and have established a check-in like this], it’s important to track down the reason. It could have been a lot of things and as someone who is “expecting” someone to be there or to call, it’s when you start escalating.

      I already assumed he didn’t give out his phone number due to him not wanting telemarketers, I know that kind of person well. That’s also the kind of quirky personality that sadly does tend to pass away and be left to found a very long time later. I’m glad your alarm bells rang and were able to track down his next of kin to do a well check.

      When people just go “missing” it’s not a privacy issue, it’s a safety issue. Sure you have the right to go MIA but expect others to send out a search team and “deal with it”.

      1. Jemima Bond*

        I concur. In these circumstances I’m damn sure I’d rather risk “oops I caused a kerfuffle” against “that poor man died on the floor because nobody checked up on him” when the latter option is grounded in reasonable thought.

    11. MissDisplaced*

      In this case, knowing there’s an illness and that the pattern of the call check-ins changed, this seems a reasonable thing to do. And I think calling the brother was better than calling the police to check in on him.

    3. Lena Clare*

      Whoop whoop, thank you!
      (I’m celebrating by having an early night because I’m exhausted haha!)

  187. Me--Blargh!*

    Update: I have submitted the application for that creative mentorship and I feel like I’m gonna throw uuuuuuuuppp…

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Breathe, breathe. You’ve done everything you can, now it’s all over but the waiting. Good luck!

      1. Me--Blargh!*

        Yes, but I still have no way to get out there if I get it, because if I sell my house, I have nowhere to live. But if I don’t, I have no money to get out there.

        I did get a call from a STEM temp agency and was submitted for the job, but the hiring manager won’t be scheduling interviews until after July 8 because of the stupid holiday.

  188. LilacPanda*

    Hi all~
    I am a high school teacher for several years and am completely burnt out; it’s getting more and more difficult to be “on” everyday and the work constantly comes home with me. It’s very hard for me to have a work-life balance because I have to grade, lesson plan, etc. Now in addition, today I heard news that my current supervisor is leaving and my co-worker (who I do not get along with at all) is going for the position. All of this is making me really want to look for another job…preferably not teaching. However, I’m scared to look because I have a vacation planned and I also want to start a family. I really want to look for a new job, but I don’t know if it’s the right time. I’m burnt out and wanted to pursue something else anyway, but now I feel extra pressure to leave since my co-worker has a shot at that supervisory job. But on the other hand, I want to start a family. I know this post is kind of all over, but I would appreciate feedback. Thanks!

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      My thinking is if you’re ready, then it’s the right time. You’re feeling tired and burnt out – more so than usual at the end of the school year, I assume? And you know for sure you don’t want to have your current co-worker as your supervisor. So, now is the time to start looking. There’s never going to be a “perfect” time, and there may never even be a “good” time as far as your employer is concerned. If it’s right for YOU, then it’s right.

      Also, vacations and not-yet-started pregnancies often take significantly less time than job searches! If you start looking now, it could take six months to a year to find a new job. Depending on when your vacation is, it’s likely to be long over by then; and depending on when you get pregnant, that could also be long over and you’ll find yourself job searching with a brand new baby. You don’t need to factor either of those into your timing, if you’re just at the point of getting a resume together and figuring out what comes next. Don’t overthink it. :)

      1. LilacPanda*

        Thanks, Matilda! I’ve actually been feeling burnt out for a long time now, not just the end of the year. You made several really good points and you were really encouraging! Thank you for the feedback, I appreciate it and am going to begin searching because as you said, it could take a long time and it’ll happen when it happens.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is the same with everything in life, that’s a major life decision. There will always be reasons why “it’s not the right time” and therefore you cannot use that as your compass.

      You’re burnt out, you’re exhausted, you’re just chipping away at yourself and your limited reserve tank as you keep pushing. It will create toxicity and bitterness if you hang in there for all these future goals.

      You can start a family with a new job in the works. People do it all the time! This won’t set you back on that front.

    3. KX*

      I am a former high school teacher who moved into corporate roles. I was burned out/overwhelmed.

      Now that I have been away from teaching for this long, I can look back at it. I am happy where I am now, but maybe I was the wrong kind of teacher. I think I would have been more successful as an elementary school teacher. I’m too far from it now to want to go back, but the elementary school classroom (I’ve sent two kids through it now) is far more intellectually stimulating than I thought it could possibly be (when I was a college student training to be a high school teacher), and having 30 kids/families to deal with seemed so manageable compared to how many students I had.

      You know what drew you to teaching and what burned you out about it. You don’t have to explain to me why you want to leave. But your choices are broader than High School Teacher vs Not Teaching job. I could have found a lot of what I wanted from teaching with an elementary school credential. There would have been more variety in my day. The students would have appreciated me more. I really, really loved learning my single subject, and still really, really love it. But there is more to teaching than WHAT I was teaching, and I regret not being more open to a multiple subject credential, elementary school self-contained classroom when I was making decisions.

      I got real tired of running The High School Teacher Show five times each day for different audiences of students. I think I might still be a teacher if I had been in a K5 classroom.

    4. Miranda*

      As an ex-teacher who stayed in the job too long – if you are miserably burnt out and have reason to expect your working conditions are only going to get worse – start looking now. You might not find anything. You might find something that pays enough to help support a family and has good vacation benefits. It’s unlikely anything will come up so quickly as to affect your planned vacation. But if you don’t do anything, you run the risk of the stress getting much worse, bad enough to force you out when you haven’t got an escape route planned and certainly enough to have a bad impact on your family life.

      1. LilacPanda*

        KX and Miranda, thanks for weighing in, especially since you understand what teaching feels like.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Your baby-to-be wants a Happy Parent, not a stressed out parent.

      Get yourself to solid ground first then think about your family expansion. Jobs come and go, kids are forever.

      The thing with the ugly cohort becoming your boss has pushed things to a head. It’s time to move now. You need relief in stress first and foremost. If you have a child with this level of stress at work, your stress levels are really going to ramp up. A child will not relieve your stress at work, it will only get worse as there would be two of you dependent on your income.

      1. LilacPanda*

        Yea, I was thinking about that, how it could affect my child in the future. Everyone is like “oh but you get the summer off” but I’m miserable all the other months, it’s just too much. I am going to clean up my resume this weekend….everyone has been very helpful here.

        1. Batgirl*

          You need every single day of that summer to recuperate – but you don’t typically get it. My workload used to eat up two weeks of summer at least.

          I left full time teaching for all the reasons you state. I decided I was going to go into supply teaching (good rates of pay, lots of demand and you go home at 3pm without any books or planning to do) so I could check other places out and see if any other schools had a better handle on the work/life balance. They did not, so I worked for a while as a classroom assistant.

          I ended up kind of striking of deal with one school to work school hours only as a literacy tutor. This left some time available for me tutor after school. I do one-to-one interventions where they get instant feedback, so no need for marking. It’s worked out well; I got my health back, they’ve improved their literacy rate. Ofsted raved about the set-up. It’s a cut in pay but well worth it to have my life back.

    6. Gumby*

      I feel like it is not at all common for teachers to quit in the middle of the school year so you might want to take that timing into account. At the very least aim for finishing up a semester/quarter.

      My parents are both teachers so I know more than my fair share of teachers. Some did quit, but very very few in the middle of a school year. I remember 1 and I suspect there were other things going on beyond “found a different job.” Even those that went on maternity leave mostly came back to finish out the current year before quitting entirely (of the 4 that I can remember who didn’t return permanently, 3 did finish the year). A couple did quit for serious health reasons at odd times, but otherwise, I don’t remember any mid-year departures.

      1. Miranda*

        It is most unusual for teachers here to leave during the school year, and doing so might lead to questions as to why in future job applications. But it can be done – I did it. And I knew someone who left days into the school year – just decided he couldn’t take it any more and walked out. Last person I would have expected to feel the stress that much, but that just shows I don’t always know what’s going on in everyone else’s lives, and why should I?

        That being said, there are a LOT of ex-teachers around. It’s not that unusual for people to find out that they don’t like/can’t take the work. I don’t know why this is. My university required practice teaching in real schools, but a lot of their graduates, like me, got through the practice teaching successfully, got jobs teaching and aren’t teaching any more.

  189. TheRedCoat*

    I joked with my friend that I’m a Ronin Office worker, and I was only half joking. Gave my 2 weeks notice today. My actual manager is off for the next week and a half, my interim manager has no clue what I do (he was hired based on his management experience and not his industry experience). No one has any idea what to do with me regarding a transition plan, and I handle some really weird, complicated processes that no one likes. I’m finding it really hard to care.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      Call in sick on Monday so you have a three-day weekend, then on Tuesday start writing your transition document.

  190. Blazer*

    Looking for advice on choosing a mentor. I work in the financial department of a large university. Ideally, I’d like to ask my grand boss , but is that appropriate? What are some factors I should consider before asking? To my knowledge, there isn’t a formal mentor program and I don’t know of anyone personally that has a mentor relationship in my organization (although I’m fairly certain they exist here, SURELY). Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

    1. LQ*

      They exist but they may not be formal or called that. I’ve never had a formal “mentor” relationship but I have a handful where I’m mentored and mentoring. I think grandboss is good if you already have a relationship but honestly I’m not sure how you start it….

      For folks I’m mentoring either I’ve been told to work with them on a project where I’m not really given a role other than …you can talk with LQ about this (hey, mentor this person and help them improve, but we won’t call it mentoring because then other people will be upset that they aren’t being mentored). Or I’ve offered people, “If you ever have any questions or want to chat, I’m happy to give you whatever insight into the organization or the work that I can offer.” (The people who take me up on that are very smart cookies!) That is me pretty directly offering to be a mentor but not everyone picks it up.

      When I’ve gotten a mentor it’s been either someone in a leadership role (grand boss (now boss)) just sort of …started having conversations with me, so I did my best to really engage. Or I occasionally have said, “Hey you’re an expert in X would you mind if as I’m working on XY which is related if I came to you with questions.” No one has ever said no, but some people really stick to just talking about X which I respect, some people will help with boarder conversations about organization, or whatever else, at which point I think they kind of move to mentor in my head at least.

      I hope that was helpful.

  191. TurtleIScream*

    I have been waiting all week to post this! I hope some of you see it, because it just needs to be shared.

    This happened at my husband’s work. For some background, it is a medium-sized company that is very highly regarded. Pay and benefits are very competitive, and the work culture is supportive and cognisant of life outside the office. It has one of the lowest turnover rates in its industry; people like working there!

    Like many companies, they offer catalog gifts at milestone anniversaries. Nothing that would “wow” you, but a nice token nonetheless. I believe there’s also some sort of small acknowledgement on the “off-year” anniversaries, but I’m not sure.

    My husband started at this company right out of college. He has moved up, and was invited to purchase an ownership stake. As such, he is rewarded very nicely in profit sharing, but is not eligible for certain employee perks, such as birthday gift cards and anniversary tokens. He is one of the bosses, so he does these things for his department employees, but doesn’t need them in return.

    Anyway, he just passed his 24th work anniversary. He came in to his office to find a small gift congratulating him. It was not signed, so he’s not sure who is responsible. The gift was…well … picture the cheap gift bags you can buy like 10/$1 at the dollar store. Inside was a smattering of mismatched candies, like you’d get if you took your toddler to Chuck E. Cheese, and let them play arcade games for tokens, and this was all you could get for your 38 tokens. A single piece of gum, an individually wrapped starburst, a Now&Later; I mean, really random items. Also included were a small toy (like a Slinky), two day passes to a local gym, and a photocopied sheet of coupons to a local restaurant. Not a gift card, or a coupon for a free dessert, or a small pizza. No, he can save $1 on any adult entree.

    Did he need a gift? No. Did he expect a gift? No. Did this gift make him feel warm and fuzzy about working there? Well, his reaction included the letters W & F, but did not stand for warm and fuzzy. Now, it’s off to verify this type of gift is not being presented to other employees as a thank you.

    1. Ella P.*

      I am also feeling ‘not warm and fuzzy’… I assume this isn’t a very jokey kind of office and they were just off in their sense of humor? I’m thinking this has to be someone playing a trick, given it’s anonymous and just too far out in left field to be real…

      Hope so!

    2. Karen from Finance*

      Oh God, please let this not be a legit company gift for other employees. Please let this be a messed up prank, or maybe a misguided effort from one of his own employees.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m praying and screaming inside hoping that this was some well meaning person who threw together a “Gift Bag” for him, knowing the company wouldn’t be giving him anything for his anniversary. But I know deep down, that even if that’s the case, this person is so far out to lunch in their Well Meaning Universe that it’s painful.

      This is the time you get someone a cute mug that’s shaped like an animal and stuff it with some Lindt balls. Not dollar store nonsense that you give a child for their goody-bags. Also who just has these kinds of candies and thoughtfully pick out one starburst and one piece of gum!? ONE PIECE OF GUM?! WHY YOU NO GIVE HIM A PACK OF GUM AT LEAST?! I’m kind of enraged? But only because I take goody bags serious and you can do these things so easy and so inexpensive and not by like a mom making goody-bags for Jr’s 5th bday party.

      Also. Photocopied COUPONS! Sobbing into my chest. That’s a trip. Man, they didn’t even get a booklet of Free Small Softies at Wendy’s or a Free Dilly Bar. OR This reminds me of the coupons we would get for a free donut at the grocery store for Halloween. OMG someone reel me in.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Since it’s not consistent with what he knows about the company, then this is probably (hopefully) someone’s idea of a joke.

      It almost sounds like someone’s kid put it together for Parent to give to Boss.
      You will have to let us know what he finds out.

    5. Flyleaf*

      It seems like a gag. From some individual, probably not the company. Maybe someone will fess up and ask if your husband thought it was funny. Maybe not. Regardless, east the starburst, move on.

  192. Kiwimedic*

    Has anyone heard of the caution ‘When you start a new job be wary of the first three people to come up and talk to you of their own volition. They’re the gossips looking for fresh material’. I heard it from my boss at my first corporate job and it rang true at the time. Has anyone else experienced similar?

    1. Krickets*

      Say whaaa…!?!?!? I’ma need to pay extra attention to this and see how it plays out at my next job. :-0

    2. Iris Eyes*

      Hmmmm….Might be true.

      Sounds like a proverb, not always exactly true but generally a good guideline.

    3. Chat Noir*

      I think it could be somewhat accurate. The people who use information as a sort of currency in their personal and work relationships would likely be the first to speak to a new employee to get the scoop.

      Also, it’s probably a good idea to be circumspectly friendly to everyone at a new job until you get the lay of the land. I don’t mean for it to sound manipulative, but you don’t want to end up too close to the malcontents and complainers, who often want more employees on their “side” and sometimes try to recruit newcomers.

    4. Overeducated*

      What? My department only HAS about three people right now. But I try to say hello to new people to make them feel a little more comfortable in a place full of strangers. Wow.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think you just need to be cautious of everyone when you first meet them, assuming they’re malicious gossips and that’s why they’re talking to you is pretty dark. Most people are not bad or looking to trample on you for their own joy.

    6. Cows go moo*

      Huh? It’s true you should be cautious about what you say/how you present yourself in a new job while you get to know your workplace culture. But it doesn’t mean you should automatically assume the worst in your colleagues. Lots of people will come and talk to the new person to make them feel welcome.

    7. Alianora*

      That seems over the top for the workplaces I’ve been at. Those people tended to be warm and friendly, although I guess some of the more talkative ones could have been labeled gossipy.

    8. Jules the 3rd*

      Nah. When someone new moves into the area near me, I talk to them. I’m checking to see if they are also new to town, because I’ve got a nice email compiled of fun things to do in the area, and how to find information on various local activities. If they are new, I send it, and then I leave them alone unless they start talking to me some other time.

      I do this because my team is very small and doesn’t work with other teams much, so this is a way I can introduce myself constructively, and give a starting point for additional conversations.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Only time I can think of that I know I was one of the three… I’d started there 2 weeks earlier and was so frustrated at lack of documentation on procedures & databases that I’d started writing it. So I went over to volunteer my notes to New Guy. Apparently it helped a lot.

  193. Lady Kelvin*

    So I had an interview for the federal position that I’m currently doing as a contractor and one of the questions what to describe a time when you had a conflict with a coworker and how you resolved it. Well I was expecting the question and had a good answer because I currently have conflict with a coworker (and that coworker is the reason they ask this question, he’s really hard to work with) but I was completely thrown off when SURPRISE that coworker was on the interview panel. So I had to scramble to think of another example, which I don’t have many because I work well with most people and I’ve really only been in the working world (outside of academics) in this job. I could tell that they were coaching me a bit through the question because the lead interviewer is also the person I go to for help navigating the relationship with problem coworker. Otherwise the interview went really well and I’m pretty sure I’ll be getting an offer from them, but whew, talk about having to think on your feet.

    1. Sc@rlettNZ*

      I had exactly the same thing happen to me – but in my case I just went ahead and used the example. I was a little vague about exactly what team I was referring to so maybe the person involved figured it out, or maybe she didn’t. (We had worked together on a project team that had previously been great and then after some personnel changes became rather dysfunctional). I got the job so it all worked out in the end but it felt very awkward in the moment :-)

  194. Overeducated*

    Posted above about waiting to hear back about an interview. Well, I got the 4:30 Friday phone call saying “we thought you were really great, but we decided to go with the internal candidate who’s been filling the role informally for the last 8 months. We thought we were going to hire her from the start but you made it a surprisingly hard decision!”

    It was the kindest and most supportive rejection I’ve ever had – the hiring manager talked for 10 minutes about how they all thought I was great, wished they could hire both of us, he thinks I’m on the right track for the kind of jobs and experience I’m looking for, etc. He also told me about an HR practice I didn’t know about that if I wanted to take a job with a lower level title in my area, I’d still be eligible for pay parity at my current level (basically going from the bottom of my current salary band to the middle/top of the one below) – not sure if I’d do it, but WOW that is good to know in terms of what options I can consider to move out of this expensive city. So…the bright side of this experience was hopefully useful advice and good networking, I don’t think it was a complete waste of time.

    On the other hand, while the delivery was great, the timing could have been better. I had to use up most of a vacation day that I was saving for maternity leave, spent today making up 2 hours of it instead of going to a kid school event, and now have just a week before my lease renewal is due to decide whether to aggressively try to buy a house or just stay in an apartment for another year. I’m seriously considering ice cream for dinner.

    1. Troutwaxer*

      My Child, if you wish to have ice cream for dinner, God will forgive you, but only if you buy the good stuff. Fiat voluntas tua, sicut in caelo et in terra.

  195. Ladybugger*

    It’s my birthday and I’ve been working somewhere where no one puts bugs in plants near my desk for almost a year! Wooo!

  196. Arlington*

    We have a new team member who immediately wants to speak to us as soon as he sends or receives an email. Like I will send an email and CC him (not even to him directly) and within a minute he walks over to me to reply in person.) he does this as a general habit and it’s making everyone very irritated! He also is a close talker and just very chatty in general. He seems pretty good at his job otherwise and is nice, and my agency has unfortunately high turnover..any ideas for what to say to this guy without hurting his feelings? I’d be shocked if he wasn’t picking up on the collective irritation of 12 people!

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Hints don’t work.
      You could try ending your emails with, “No need to walk over to my desk, you can reply right here in email and save yourself the extra effort.”

      Here, the idea is to show them how it is to their advantage to use your idea.

      If that doesn’t work, you can try telling him in person, “Bob, everyone here just answers in email rather than walking over to people. We only walk over if something is [whatever- complex, urgent, unclear].”

      Here you are using an explanatory tone, similar to explaining how you get a stuck ink cartridge out of a printer.

      Suppose he says, “Well, I don’t mind walking over.”
      Then you can say, “Well, Bob, it breaks people’s train of thought and we mostly prefer to talk through email as often as possible.”

      Suppose this does not work. Then try, “Bob, put everything to me in email. If I have a question too cumbersome for email *I* will walk over to you.”

  197. The Curse of Competency*

    I’ve worked at the same place for 11 years, and the same problems keeps coming up and I’m not sure how to deal with it. I’m a hard worker, which seems to be a bad thing as I’m always rewarded with more work, mandatory overtime (which my co-workers volunteer me for) and no bonus.

    While my slacker co-workers do nothing, never work overtime, but get all the bonuses. I’ve tried refusing the overtime or extra work, but than I get hauled into the mangers office and given the “you need to be more of a team player” speech.

    Is this normal?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re the workhorse of the firm, you need to leave this dumpster, it’s on fire! Your manager can fight me. I’ve got a special place on my sh*t list that is reserved for these dillweeds.

      This happened to me at my last job. I did everything. Working 60hrs a week and the one time I said “Hey, Joe. Can you do this for me? Thanks.” Joe said “Sure no big deal” and I got hauled in for a write up by the boss, who was ownership and is an awful business man and even worse person [as if that’s even possible!]

      My personal rant aside. No. This is not normal. They are horrible jerkwads and they are abusing you, this is not a good place.

      1. The Curse of Competency*

        Nice to know this isn’t normal. I’m currently working 80 hr weeks, haven’t had a vacation in the last 4 years.

        I’ve been job hunting but it’s hard in my area and my employer is one of the biggest in the area. I’ve got a 4 yr degree and lots of experience in my field, but finding a non-dumpster fire job is like finding a dodo bird

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          FML it’s one of THOSE employers. Which is even worse.The “biggest employer in the economically depressed area”.

          You honestly may have to find a job you can telecommute to or leave the area if you really want to escape. which is possibly a stretch for you and I’m sorry you’re in this situation.

          They act that way because they have you by the throat. They know it. They know they can get away with whatever they want because you have no other options. It’s vile and it reeks of Oil and Timber Baron days tactics. So vile. Not normal at all. Most employers aren’t tyrants who treat you like you’re just their pawn to get things done.

          1. The Curse of Competency*

            You hit the nail on the head! They treat everyone as expendable and promotions are slim to none and management is always hired from the outside.

            The only other location that my degree (political anthropology) would net me a job is Washington DC. I’ve been dreaming of getting a job there and finally doing something fulfilling.

  198. LadyAbhorsen*

    I am a new reader, but my god has this blog been a source of inspiration and reassurance recently. If commenters would be so kind, I’d love a bit of advice.

    Long story short, I decided after surviving another of our brutal busy seasons that I would be quitting in August. I am paid at a frankly horrific rate and receive only COL raises, and while I love my co-workers (there’s a reason I’ve been here for four years!) it’s past time to go. I knew I had a medical procedure coming up in the beginning of July which would have me out of commission until mid-month, so I’ve been slow-pedaling on applying, intending on really gunning it while on my FMLA when I had the time to spend all day on job searches.

    Well, one of the few places I applied for emailed me last night expressing interest in a phone interview today. I made my excuses to my manager, stepped out – and aced the phone interview. (Thank you thank you THANK YOU to Allison’s interview tips! I only had four hours to cram prep in before going to bed last night, and what I did counted tangibly.) The interviewer wanted to know if I was available to come in for an in-person next week, and I happen to have Monday and Tuesday off. Fantastic – except I tell him that after next week, I will be out of commission until mid-July, so any potential second-round interviewing (which he was already talking about) would have to wait.

    He says he’ll call me back, and my heart sinks. It felt like a dealbreaker. But he does, in fact, call me back, and tells me: well, you’ll have to figure out how to come in Wednesday, but we’ve arranged it so everyone you need to meet will be at either your Tuesday or Wednesday interview. You just need to confirm that if the position is offered to you, you’ll be willing to give your two weeks during your FMLA. I said I would be willing to do so, and we signed off.

    Now, my questions are:
    • Am I making this up or are they really super interested in me? The level of flexibility in making all the interviews happen next week is blowing me away.
    • I looked it up and I believe I can, legally, give notice during FMLA. Is this correct?

    I should note, if I am in fact offered the job, I plan to come in during my leave (given the ability to do so) to give my notice in person. I feel strongly this is the correct course for a job I’ve been at for four years and don’t want to burn bridges with. I also don’t want to be the person who goes on leave and just never comes back. Does anyone have any advice for handling this?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It is a good sign that they still want to go forward with your interview and that they can rally everyone to do it one swoop! That’s for sure, if you were lukewarm, they most likely would have wished you good luck. Granted, if it’s one of those “You have to interview 12 candidates, no exceptions” jobs, then it could also be that they just don’t have another one to reach out to so they wanted to fit it for their internal processes alone [this is probably isn’t the case but my own dark-minded idea at the time!]

      You can give notice whenever you want! Lots of people don’t come back from medical leave for various reasons. Unless you have a contract in place which is probably not the case, since you say FMLA so therefore you’re in the US and contracts exist in very few places. But it may burn the bridge it depends on if they’re sensitive souls who take it personally or not. But you shouldn’t live in fear of burning bridges while being a professional thoughtful person.

      1. LadyAbhorsen*

        Firstly, I am deliriously happy at your username because I can now imagine Becky Lynch, the Man Herself, saying all of this to me (while I make huge heart eyes at her).

        Secondly! Thank you very much for your feedback. I’ve been feeling really out of my depth, as this is the first time I’m really properly going through an interview cycle (I worked at Starbucks out of college, which is not known for its rigorous interviewing practices, and then I temp-to-hire’d this job, with only one phone interview necessary for getting in the door). It’s exciting to know they’re so interested in me; even if it’s a ‘interview X applicants’ deal, this still gets me in the door.

        And regarding the leaving… man, when you say it like that’s it’s very simple. I’ve really drunk the Kool-Aid, haven’t I? I feel personally beholden to them for things that any decent job should do, and my guilt just keeps spiraling out of control over that. I’m a knowledge center by dint of being the only person below management level to survive over 100% turnover across all sectors within the four years I’ve worked here, and it’s given me a complex.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Please, continue to read all my comments as Becky Lynch cutting a promo because it’s really how I read myself in my head ;)

          I see you’re me. I was given a job right out of high school, not retail/service but was a friend’s sister needed an accounting clerk. Then I went to temp gigs until I did my temp-to-hire for a decade. Interviewing is a lot harder in our minds and the entire emotional drainage it causes. We doubt ourselves, we double check ourselves, it’s a mess. But really, as someone who now interviews people frequently enough, it’s just a weird dance between two [or more] strangers, so you just want to try to keep up without stepping on each other’s feet!

          You have 4 years of experience. That’s a lot. It’s also great to have that kind of length of time at your employer, that shows “loyalty” that a lot of hiring managers are hoping for.

          It’s normal when you’re a hard working, dedicated individual to feel attached like that. I know it all too well. Someone has to really burn my butt before I tell them to hop-off and would burn down the building as I walked out if I weren’t a law abiding citizen and you know, not an arsonist in general. When you read stories here, you’ll see it’s a common theme about exiting employees, they worry about not hurting feelings or burning bridges. All you can do is be respectful and know that if they take it personally, that’s even more sign they’re toxic. This is business, it’s not personal. They would fire someone if they felt the need and would hopefully try to do so in a kind and respectful manners as well. It’s a two way street. You’re not a prisoner and they’re not the warden!

          1. LadyAbhorsen*

            Mic in hand, chin raised, eyes sharp and direct, Becky smirks to hardcam and… gives sage job advice. I am over the moon.

            The thing that frustrates me is I know I’m very personable and “good at social” and generally enjoy these types of things; but calling it “an interview” suddenly pulls the rug out from under me. I’ll have to keep in mind that this honestly isn’t an alien thing, and in fact follows predictable patterns. (Once again: Allison’s tips saved my life.)

            What’s especially insane to me in my own behavior is how awful the work is a lot of the time. Our busy season spans mid-November through mid-March, and we’re expected to work 50 hour weeks for most of that; even being non-exempt and collecting overtime, the pay is so hideously low that it doesn’t really move the needle. Why am I sitting here getting weepy over putting them in a bad position by leaving? I will give them the notice I am required to give and show the level of documentation I’ve done and that’s all I need to do!

            Thank you for your advice and encouragement. You are amazing!

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              They put themselves in a bad position, by not having manageable schedules and treating their employees properly! You didn’t put them in that situation at all. That’s what happens when you underpay and take advantage of people working for you. They cut and run when they get the chance.

              It also helps to have a sounding board like this, so it’ll work out the nerves and hype you up for actually hitting the ground, running towards the interviews to come.

              You got this. Work the room, get the job and then go hit your soon to be former employer with a lowkey Stone Cold Stunner.

  199. Where do you store records when you have no office or file vault?*

    I’m the Secretary on the Board of Directors for a local non-profit, and I’m struggling with file and paper management. (This is a volunteer position, and I’m Secretary-as-in-the-officer-of-the-Board rather than secretary-as-in-someone-hired-to-do-filing.)

    We have no physical office, just a P.O. box and a storage unit. Meetings and events are held at various rented hotel/conference/community spaces, or occasionally at people’s homes. Most items are stored in the storage unit if they’re only needed at events a few times a year, and things needed more often that that are stored at the home of whoever needs them that frequently. The storage unit is not climate controlled, so expensive electronics are also not stored there but rather at someone’s house.

    Any suggestions for how I should handle document storage? In my day jobs, I’ve always worked places that have file rooms and/or vaults, and it’s just breaking my brain that we have no archive space. (I asked for the existing archives, and have not yet received them from the previous Secretary because she’s been pretty swamped. She apparently didn’t get anything from the previous-to-her Secretary until she’d been in the position for about a year and a half. I am not expecting much in the way of organized archives to appear at any point, but I will keep asking.)

    Do I…just keep things at my house? I’m mostly worried about things like the contracts we have people sign when they are running events for us or we sign when we rent space, which presumably we should keep in an organized fashion accessible to someone else if I am hit by a truck. (The storage unit is full of things used by our various events rather than archival records, and there have been issues in the past with people deciding to take everything in the unit to the event location, even things being stored in there unrelated to that event, where they are not always kept in logical places or put back in the same part of the storage unit afterward so I’m not sure that’s a good fit either.)

    We also don’t seem to have any private digital storage. We have a public webpage and a public wiki, but nowhere I could keep, say, our list of our org members’ names, addresses, and phone numbers stored online. Email is the only online tool the Board seems to use for communication, and it’s through an old-school mailing list rather than something that also has other features.

    I’m mostly just boggled by how casual an org that’s older than I am seems to be about records storage, but my assorted day jobs have all been in things like finance, law, and education where keeping appropriate records is a Really Big Deal. I don’t want to demand that they suddenly spend a ton of money just because this makes me itchy, but this whole situation makes me itchy.

    Are there reasonable records storage solutions I should be aware of? Can you rent file cabinet space somewhere the way you can storage units? I’m just…lost.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Can’t you digitize these records and then store on a secure backup drive?
      There are companies who help with digital and electronic records management (ERM). If you are leasing a copier, sometimes those companies also have ERM service. Or you can get software and implement it yourself.

      Google digital records management and you’ll find a lot of companies who provide this. I even found one from the UK government called Managing digital records without an electronic record management system (PDF, 0.67Mb)

      1. LGC*

        This is literally what I was about to say – unless you legally need to store physical documents, don’t! Depending on the requirements, it could be something like a few thousand dollars for the backfile if you outsource.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Offsite file storage is a thing for physical files as well as electronic. My company uses Iron Mountain for paper we’re legally required to retain for X years, but which probably won’t be needed at all after the boxes are sealed. From what I hear you need a good list of what’s in there, and searchable scans are helpful so you can reference the materials without having to pull them.
        When you get a system going, put that success on your resume because it’s not trivial!

  200. TotallyAnon*

    I’m super late but could use some insight. The short version of the question is: should I complain about how unfairly I was treated when trying out for a lateral transfer?

    Some background: In my last job, I did Teapot Analysis at the entry level, but when I got hired into this role, they put me where they needed more capacity, which was Teapot Marketing. After about a year in the job, talking to some of the people, and attending all the internal trainings for Teapot Analysis, I asked my manager if I could apply for an opening in the Teapot Analysis team. I also asked if she thought I was applicable for the role – and she said yes to both. She seemed pretty supportive and understood why I wanted to transfer. I had to do a written assignment – which I found very easy – and an interview. I was given good feedback on the assignment, but when I interviewed with the manager of the department (a different manager than my current one – the one who allowed me to apply), I immediately sensed something was off.

    For some context, both the Teapot Marketing and Teapot Analysis teams work under this same manager. This exact manager has relayed to me several times the good feedback his clients had given on the projects I had done for them. If I transferred to Teapot Analysis, I would be working for the same clients, but doing Teapot Analysis work instead of Marketing.

    During the interview, the manager seemed dismissive and not very enthusiastic having to interview for the role. I was surprised, because I knew that I had a track record of doing good work under him. I prepared thoroughly for the interview, but every time I tried to give my speel about why I was qualified for the role, he would seem partially attentive and not respond. Then suddenly in the middle of the interview, he launched a spontaneous “case study” riddle. Fortunately, I recognized it – it’s an exercise they give to new hires during the onboarding process. However, they usually give them an entire day to do it. However, since I had already done it, I was able to give him my answer. Again, he seeemed unimpressed.

    Eventually, the painful interview was over. 3 weeks later, I was called into a meeting with my personal manager who allowed me to apply. She relayed back feedback from the interview from the manager who interviewed me. She said they chose not to accept me for Vague Reasons, such as they “didn’t think I was qualified”. They also told me I got a fact wrong on my HW assignment, which I found fishy. I double-checked the fact with multiple sources, including one of my former professors, and the sources confirmed that I was actually right.

    I let it go at the time, but the whole thing seems shady to me. One of my work friends suggested I go to HR about this. I didn’t pursue it at the time, but…should I? Would HR do anything about it? I still would really like this transfer, but I think this manager is full of sh*t. Fortunately, there are multiple managers who work at the same level as him. Should I set up a meeting with one of them and try to apply again? Trying to figure out the best course of action at this point. (For the record, my end goal is just to get this transfer. I’m not too crazy about how the manager treated me, but I don’t care if he gets into trouble or not.)

    1. The Curse of Competency*

      It’s the Curse of Competency, my friend. You were so good at teapot marketing that your company will never let you advance in another department.

      2. TotallyAnon*

        I was afraid of that! But here’s the catch – I am ALSO good at Teapot Analysis. I don’t want to make the building explode though.

      3. Gilmore67*

        You think that because you didn’t get the job you believe you were treated “unfairly”. If you had gotten the job with all the same stuff that happened, would you have thought…. “Well that was an unfair interview but yea I got the job!” ? No you wouldn’t have thought that. You’d be happy you got the job. No unfairness in play at all.

        Maybe they don’t want you in another role other than what you do now. Maybe the other candidates had something else they liked better and went in that direction.

        Maybe the interviewer is just a bad interviewer. Maybe your company sucks in hiring. That is not being unfair, just bad on their part.

        Bottom line, it is not “unfair” that you didn’t the job just because you wanted it. Do not go to HR and say you were treated unfairly. The dept. can hire who they want.

        I would recommend to talk to whomever you need to to see what you need to do in the future to increase your chances of getting the job.

        You really don’t know why they made that decision. Concentrate on improving your skills or whatever is needed to increase your chances to get another job OR if your are stuck in a dead end fire up your resume and look outside.

          1. Gilmore67*

            Yes I did. You stated you were treated ” unfairly” and you wanted to complain. I responded back to that.
            I also stated they they might suck at hiring. That the hiring manager could just be bad at interviewing. Basically stating that you were not necessarily the problem with the process, in a sense defending you.

            My post was simply saying that the use of the word ” unfair ” is not appropriate. Complaining to HR that it was ” unfair ” is not the right direction and wording. Most likely HR hears unfair they are going to internally roll their eyes, another one pissed because they didn’t get the job.

            What do you want HR to do? Make the transfer happen? Tell the manager to hire you because you want the job?

            Again, find out what you can do to improve your chances next time. If the company isn’t going to transfer you, go somewhere else where you can use your skills.

            1. Gilmore67*

              If you believe there is a flaw and problems in the hiring process suggest something. Managers want to hear solutions to problems not just complaining.

    2. MarshmallowDisaster*

      If your HR is anything like our HR, they will do nothing about it. If I were you I would ask, either directly or via your personal manager, for specific feedback from the interviewing manager. They should be able to provide clarity on their Vague Reasons and even pinpoint why they felt you were not qualified (are you missing a particular certification, or degree, etc). As petty as that feedback and comments may be, learn from that feedback. On the other hand, and to play devil’s advocate, they are not required to hire you even if you’re qualified, right? Maybe it was a courtesy interview. Any number of reasons why they wouldn’t hire you. Bottom line is that only you can decide if being a Teapot Analyst at THAT company is where you want to be or if you can take those skills where they will be better appreciated. Good luck to you!

      1. TotallyAnon*

        I did ask for more specifics – the conversation was pretty lengthy, but I didn’t want my original post to be too long. My personal manager who relayed the feedback to me was sympathetic, and pretty much said what you said – that just because I didn’t get the job doesn’t mean I’m not qualified. I think we both knew that the other manager was BS-ing, and she sympathized with me but didn’t want to throw him under the bus either. I am apply externally as well, but it is going very slowly. I started applying since I got the initial rejection (so a year). I’m just wondering if I have any other recourse here.

        Another thing that adds to the BS-ness is that we are one of those companies that hires entry level roles frequently. This hiring cycle alone, they hired a bunch of recent college grads less qualified than me. So yeah, they aren’t required to hire me, but….they suck.

        1. MarshmallowDisaster*

          Honestly, sounds like they do suck and are just doing rounds of interviews so they can cover their backsides and maybe not get called out just going through the motions when they’re really just looking for “meets minimum requirements at the lowest cost”. Also, your post never mentioned any manager being a Senior Teapot Analyst, just a manager, which I think is interesting. This also makes me think there is really not that much growth in this company for Teapot Analysts and that you would potentially outgrow this company quickly.

          1. TotallyAnon*

            Thanks for your responses! Yeah…like I mentioned, I am job hunting, but that is taking quite awhile. It is definitely ideal for me to get out of this company the minute I get the opportunity.

    3. TotallyAnon*

      I should also add that I am always doing professional development for my skills (courses, trainings, etc.) There’s always software skills that can be built upon that are relevant to the job. Adding it because it’s come up a few times in the answers. I’m basically just asking what the correct course of action is to reapply for the job, if there is one at all.

      1. MarshmallowDisaster*

        The correct course of action is to simply reapply when the job is posted again. Think about what you just told us, your company just hired a pool of less qualified college grads, so IMHO, setting up a meeting with a manager or asking for opinions on whether your should apply or are qualified seem moot.

  201. Jaid*

    Where I work, people send in checks. We don’t always know why they send us money or even if it’s their check (freakin heck of a lot of Joe Blows, out there, is all I’m saying), so we write back to them or call them if we can. If there’s no response, the money goes to what I call a slush fund.

    The department that deals with the paperwork to transfer the money has been getting pickier and pickier about the documentation they want to accompany the transfer form. Now they want paper copies of the letters we mail out attached to the transfer form.

    Except we don’t actually print the letters out to mail ourselves, there’s a mailroom that does it. Somewhere else.
    So where do they think these letter copies are going to come from?

    I think they’re just pulling procedures out of their asses now and trying to get the rest of us sucked into their crazy. Bad enough they want us to use Google to find people’s phone numbers and cold call. Can we say “disclosure”?

    1. Blazer*

      Not sure what industry you work in, but I work in the accounting department for a large university and I think I can provide some context for their reasoning. What you are describing sounds similar to residual funds. Residual funds are unspent cash balances remaining after a fixed price contract or grant has ended. The unspent funds are transferred to a general ledger account that can be used for other purposes. These types of accounts are heavily audited so it’s likely the extra hoops you are having to jump through are necessary, and not just put in effect to make things more difficult. Even if the checks you are receiving aren’t grant or contract funds, the same principle applies. Your accounting department has developed internal controls to avoid a bad audit.

      How are the letters getting to the mail room? Via email? Or do they create the letters and print as well? If department is creating them, could you send the requesting department the attachment, explaining that you don’t have printing capabilities?

  202. Laura H.*

    Late but

    It’s been a few weeks, still no folding table, and my hours are near nil, but that’s likely because teen help is so abundant since it’s summer break.

    I can work more and the schedule person knows that so I’ve done all I can without rocking the boat (and my like of being employed far outweighs my perceived indignation at low hours)

    There’s an issue that I don’t know how or if it’s even my place to address. On the other hand, if I don’t, who will?

    For a bit of context, I’m a college-educated adult with spastic quadriplegia cerebral palsy- this is my third employer, a snack shop-as a cashier- house made popcorn, pretzels, and ice cream, in addition to a TON of different candies! I enjoy it and the popcorn is almost addictive.

    We have several employees with different special needs, that’s a characteristic of the business. The owner constantly parks their vehicle in the hashmarks next to a handicap accessible spot near the door. (It’s their property, presumably they may do what they wish.)

    At the very least, I think it’s terrible optics. At worst, it’s illegal. I kinda want to bring this up, but at the same time- power dynamics are at play. Also the rant that necessitated my folding table suggestion was while customers were in the building, and that also left me kinda wanting to say something but that’s done with, and the ideal opportunity is past. The parking in the hashes is still ongoing, and again feels like bad optics.

    Do I bring it up or just grin and bear it?

    1. Anono-me*

      Can some random person (who you definitely do not know) come in and say what needs to be said to this hopefully clueless individual?

      That way it gets said, but it doesn’t risk creating awkwardness between you and your boss.

      (If it isn’t illegal, parking in the handicapped access aisle should be.
      It means people with disabilities who use vans can not use the handicapped parking or even worse can not get back in their van.

      (Also this boss seems like a poor leader, I hope that you are looking for something else.)

      1. Laura H.*

        It’s a new business, and its kinda the first venture sort of thing. So I’m willing to permit the odd leadership style (I also don’t have the luxury to quit.)

        And I can wait for someone to complain about blocking the hashmarks, but I think I’m a good person to bring it up- I use the hashmarks when I get unloaded from a vehicle. So I’ll wait on it…

    2. Mimmy*

      It’s their property, presumably they may do what they wish.

      Nooooo they may not do what they wish with those parking spaces, especially if they serve the public.

      You say in one of your replies that you use the hashmarks when you are unloaded from a vehicle – I assume you’re using paratransit and not your own vehicle? If you were using your own vehicle, you would absolutely have standing to say something. Even if you’re being dropped off, it wouldn’t be a bad idea to say something.

  203. Lilysparrow*

    Just a happy moment. I finally took the time to learn how to use recurring Google Calendar reminders to create Google Tasks. It has given me a sense of relief and satisfaction that I can’t quite describe.

    A) I will get reminded to do the things that avert deadline panic, and

    B) I can *check them off*. I love checking things off.

    1. Amememememe*

      Congrats!! I love Google calendar it has my entire life scheduled into it (and I can share it with friends and family so they know if I’m available!! It’s great!!)

  204. Amememememe*

    Looking for random advice I guess? Just happened so I haven’t given it much thought. I work in retail as a key holder so kinda 4ic if anyone else isn’t around. It’s a new job (this month) but a manger I’ve worked under before and adore. The 3ic has left as of Thursday and interviews have been not great so manager is floating a promotion form in store. She doesn’t have the go ahead yet so nothing is sure but I’ve been offered it and so had one of the other staff (step below my role. If I knew what I was doing I’d be in charge). I don’t know if I want the job though. It’s 30 hours which would be great but I also have another internship that I need to be at 12 hours a week. Which would mean goodbye to weekends for me if I took it. But internship finishes in 4 months and after that I would love it? I think? Are there any considerations I should have but am too frazzled to? Anything I should for sure know?

    Thanks heaps helpful people

    1. LGC*

      Hm.

      It’s for four months that you’d be doing both this job and the internship, right? Do you think you could get through the first four months? How many hours a week do you work currently at this job? From what it sounds like, you’re probably working 18-20 hours, since you mention losing weekends.

      One thing you want to factor in is flexibility and free time in the interim. If you’re working 12 hours a week at the internship, that sounds like two six-hour days. If shifts at your retail job are six hours, then you might end up working either seven days a week or “doubles” on some days. That’s pretty rough for a significant amount of time – especially if you’re also going to college. But you also have a set end date where things will get less crazy (in October, roughly).

      Also, what would your additional responsibilities be, and does it come with a raise?

    2. Me*

      Look at it this way – most FT jobs are 40 hours a week. Your 30 hours + 12 hour internship = 42. That 2 more hours a week, for only 4 months, than a FT job would be.

      Unless there’s a reason you need/want PT work, it seems manageable.

  205. Verbal Essence*

    A couple years ago, I was sexually assaulted by a coworker. I’m doing some deep thinking and meditation and I’ve learned little by little not to bury how I feel and to not allow it to make me fearful. Unfortunate, though the circumstances may have been, I’ve learned that I need to practice protecting myself and putting myself first because it is not wise to think I’ll have the perfect thing to say, or the perfect reaction, in the moment that I’m being attacked.

    Saying “no” and “stop” are very hard for me sometimes, but I had to think about why that is so difficult. I’ve put a lot of pressure on myself to have the perfect response at the exact moment, thinking that I’d lose my right to defend myself if I weren’t perfectly rational, and paradoxically, perfectly prepared to do battle. I’ve realized and learned since then that predators practice; that’s how they’re able to take people by surprise and violate boundaries so well. I need to practice protecting myself in multiple situations the way predators practice how to violate boundaries.

    Although I’m not always able to control what other people decide to do, I’m much more aware of my surroundings and I am much more comfortable now with facing hard situations and being my own advocate. I’m much more comfortable voicing my opinion and speaking up for myself when I feel something’s not right, and looking for ways of escape to try to get myself out when (and if) I can. I hope I don’t lose that sense over time and I hope something like this never happens again (obviously!). Nevertheless, I can only control so much.

    The entire point of this post is that I judge myself so harshly; I need to love myself. It is a lesson hard-learned, and I’m still learning. Life is such bullshit sometimes, but god forbid someone having to suffer such a traumatic event and not know self-love.

    1. Kathenus*

      You seem to have evolved really healthy insights into yourself. You’ve gained awareness of things that you want to improve in, such as realizing you can’t control everything and it’s not reasonable or fair to yourself to hold yourself to being able to achieve perfection in the midst of a difficult situation. Now keep progressing and really BELIEVE that you are a good and wonderful person and keep taking steps towards that self-love. You can do it.

  206. Late to the game*

    Late to this thread, but I’m a graduate student leaving a PhD program with a master’s degree (my OWN choice, they’d gladly had me, but I miss working with people. Not my exact field, but similar to like :

    undergraduate degree in sociology
    few years work experience coordinating gerontological care programs
    Master’s in social gerontology (instead of a PhD in social gerontology), three years, wrote a thesis.

    Now I’m going to be job hunting and I have no idea how to spin the last three years of lab work (collecting bio and social data- actual blood and then things like video taping elderly individuals) and being a teaching assistant (mostly grading, some guest lecturing, for like seven different classes…) into a functional resume, since I’m not only looking for research tech positions. I don’t know. I feel stuck.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      First, everyone on here has convinced me, “functional resumes” are awful (assuming you meant that format versus a chronological format, rather than “a resume that functions”).

      Second, I was in a similar boat. Full disclosure, I’m employed, but I have a terrible application to interview ratio.

      Third, my approach was: I wrote each research postion as a job with accomplishments, i.e. research design, data analysis, project management (lower case project management, not formal Project Management). That went into a “Relevant Experience” section. If the positions i was applying for don’t need teaching, put that into a “Other Experience” section or leave it out.

      Good luck!

  207. Bruiser Woods*

    Does anyone have a good script of what to say when resigning in person from a toxic workplace (high turnover, poor financial management, bullying, nepotism, no growth opportunities, pays cuts). I’ve been job hunting for almost 6 months but nothing has came up but I’ve set up a meeting with my manager to resign on Monday as I think its best for my mental health and career. Advice I’ve found regarding the resignation letter is that detail is not necessary and the date of my last day is really all it needs to contain. I’m still trying to plan what to say in person 1) to my manager and after that 2) to my closest coworkers (who have undermined me behind my back but I’ve so far maintained a civil relationship as I’m trying to take the high road). Is just saying as little as possible also true for what I say in person?

    1. Release the Kraken*

      I had a similar question above and got some great responses about how to keep it short and sweet. My view for myself is that there’s nothing to gain from giving feedback about why I think it’s such a toxic dumpster fire that’s making me run for the hills. So I’m going to stick with the polite explanation that a great opportunity fell into my lap. In my situation I have no faith anything will change there so what’s the point in possibly causing bad feelings when I’m so close to making my escape? If you feel differently then give them the appropriate feedback while keeping it professional, but I know if I said anything it would really just be for my immediate peace of mind and wouldn’t actually benefit anyone or change anything.

      Obviously your situation’s a little different since you don’t yet have that next great opportunity. My husband actually just resigned from his job without having another one lined up and his mental health has improved so much. I hope yours does too! Sometimes it’s the best option for you. He was a bit more candid with HR in his exit interview about his issues with his manager and told everyone else there that he was taking a leap of faith in the hopes of finding the next great thing. Some people who work under the same manager understood right away as they’ve also had issues with him. My husband didn’t have to say a thing. He wound up getting a lot of great networking contacts from being honest with co-workers that he doesn’t have anything lined up yet so that wound up benefitting him.

      Just be mindful of your motivations and act professionally no matter what you decide to say. I read somewhere that the impression you give during the last two weeks is often remembered more than all the time you spent working there previously. As much as I dream about making some dramatic and memorable exit I know I’ll feel better about myself if I do it the right way.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      It depends on how honest you want to be, and if you care about a reference.
      A vague response to the toxic atmosphere that probably wouldn’t burn any bridges would be: “I find I am not a good fit with the culture here anymore.” This says a lot without going into details. And believe me, they know it’s toxic!

      If HR is reasonable and not vindictive, you could add that you found the pay cuts, and lack of growth to be a contributing factor to moving on.

    3. Okaaaay*

      I once resigned without anything to go to. I just put that I was resigning my position and my last day of work would be xx/xx/xx. My manager kept asking me where I was going. I told her “I’m planning on doing my own thing for a while”. I was going into business for myself. She asked me again and again. I kept telling her the same thing. She asked my staff (I managed quite a decent team). They told her the same thing. She asked me who she should address her reference to. I told her I didn’t require a reference. By the time I actually left, I had another job to go to, but she’d stopped asking by then. It was very satisfying to see how frustrated she was – after all the frustration she had put me through.

  208. Plaid Teacup*

    I know I’m a little late to thread but I have an issue with my staff of 20 employees. About 6-7 employees are regularly late coming in for their shift and returning from break.

    We have 4 locations and the one I manage appears to be the only one with the issue. At first thought, I would even say this is my doing, but I managed one of the other locations for years and never had this. My superiors are at my location frequently and replace me anytime I take a day off. They have learned this isn’t a me initiated problem. The only thing I can suspect may be a factor is my location is in a different state(within a reasonable distance to other locations). Think like Kansas City, Kansas/Kansas City, Missouri.

    As a company, we implemented a monetary bonus for those that show up on time, return on time, and are not absent. This runs each pay period and starts over. The bonus is not small either.

    Our industry is a high turnover field with plenty of red tape to hire each staff. So tardy staff are not easily replaceable. These staff are needed at their start times.

    I’m at a loss on how to counter what appears to be a culture in this state. Advice? Thoughts?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      If it is imperative they be back and ready to work at the EXACT time, you have got to start enforcing it!
      As in, docking pay for coming back late (if they punch in/out). If they are salary, it’s a bit harder to do that, but you will have to begin writing up people who are late. After 3 strikes, they get a written warning/PIP and are on their way to being fired if they do it one more time.

      Harsh, I know! But years ago I worked in a factory and it was like that. You HAD to be ‘on the line’ or it started without you! You had perhaps 3-5 minutes from 8am punch-in to get to your spot and relieve the other shift. If you didn’t comply, and you got 3 warnings within a rolling 6 month period, you got fired. The supervisors watched like hawks and enforced it to the minute, unless you had an extremely good reason (like being sick or something-and then they’d get a relief person). I am glad I’m not in those days anymore! But I understand that with some jobs, tardy cannot be tolerated (factories and hospitals come to mind).

      But before you do such drastic steps, I also say to look at WHY everyone is chronically late. Is there something about this location that actually takes them longer? Do they have trouble parking, long walks into the building, restrooms, lunch room or other factors? If there isn’t anything of that sort, and it’s just bad habits, then you’ve simply got to begin enforcing penalties for being tardy. When the first person gets fired over it, it will set an example that you’re serious. Typically, you’ll find one or two ringleaders, and if you get those in line, the others will follow out of fear of being fired. Not fun on your part, and it won’t make you liked, so make sure the being on time to the minute is really necessary and needed for the business and you’ll be backed-up by HR.

      1. Jeannie*

        All of the above – and make sure you ask them individually why they are late. Make sure it’s not accusatory, but you’re trying to solve a puzzle. Get them to solve the problem for you.

    1. The Other Dawn*

      I really like that. Thanks for posting!

      Now that I’m thinking about it, there are definitely things I learned NOT to do. Although, I have to admit I didn’t know some of those things until I got into a functional workplace. Then I realized, “Hmmm. So apparently I shouldn’t be doing that. That’s actually NOT good management.”

  210. Anon Moose*

    Is there a way to gently push back on being told I must front the cost (airfare and hotel) of a business trip to be reimbursed later? “Gently” because I am brand-new here (all of four weeks) and have little capital with which to rock any boats.

    I am paid a decent enough wage, though still hourly, non-exempt, and as a contractor (through an agency) I don’t get benefits like PTO or useable health insurance. I technically COULD, if pressed, swing a 4-figure outlay to be reimbursed. But it is a lot of money to me, and I’m just generally uncomfortable with giving a multi-national, multi-billion dollar corporation an interest-free loan when I can’t even get a paid day off for national holidays when the office is closed, sometimes for a full week. I also don’t know how long it would take to get reimbursed.

    My immediate manager is a down-to-earth guy, thankfully. He would probably be reasonable himself, though I don’t know whether this decision would be above him. I think I am new enough that my presence on this trip would be pretty much as a fifth wheel, but he wants me to go, so I’m willing, and sucking up the fact that the nature of a week-long trip probably means unpaid overtime (dinner with co-workers is not “down time”). But I would much rather the company book my flight and hotel themselves, especially since I imagine there’s no real way around waiting for reimbursement for meals/per diem while on the trip itself.

    1. valentine*

      Just tell them you can’t do it. Reject all suggestions about credit cards or other debt: “Unfortunately, that won’t be possible.”

      And look into the hotel and neighboring restaurants so you have some idea of what you’ll have to spend. Maybe don’t order anything if it’s not separate checks. Resist all efforts to get you to overextend. Maybe take just a bit of cash when you’re out with the team and say your credit card is for ER-level emergencies. Find out the average reimbursement lag so that, too, isn’t a nasty surprise.

  211. Adnan E. Mouse*

    So, having minor interpersonal difficulties at work. Could use some advice, especially if it’s not the “just smile more” variety. (I promise that will make sense in one second.)

    Issue One: My boss thinks I’m depressed and on the verge of burnout (a common concern in my field). No performance complaints were made, she simply commented that I seem “depressed” and “down.”

    Issue Two: My coworkers make passing comments comparing me to a robot, an alien, or otherwise emotionless being. This has been an issue since I started, and has been an issue wherever I go.

    For example, we all were shuffled around and some of our duties were changed. This happens fairly often, because of high turnover in our field and necessary restructuring for necessary functions.

    A co-worker was discussing with me the changes I faced in particular, and when I just dismissed the whole thing with an “it is what it is,” he asked if I ever feel emotions about anything.

    Now, I get it – I keep a pretty flat affect. Even my mentor of over a year has a hard time reading me, and per my family I’m too serious and don’t “do” emotions.

    Questions: From a supervising perspective, are these comments to be concerned about and, if so, how should they be responded to?

    1. Jeannie*

      I would only be concerned about them if when I asked you how you are feeling about the situation, you are not able to tell me what is going on for you. Even if you are saying “what will be, will be”, it’s good for a supervisor or manager to hear a bit more than that. Tell them about previous times that have been similar. Tell them what will cause an emotional reaction. Tell them what does frustrate you, what makes you happy, excited. They just need to know that you have knowledge of yourself and aren’t bottling things up.

      1. Adnan E. Mouse*

        The thing is, I’m pretty even keel across the board and there’s really not much going on beneath the surface. So, I default to “what will be, will be,” or “it is what it is,” because that’s just where I’m at – I don’t really feel anything about the situation. (And I’m honestly confused by the anticipation that I would feel something worth noting because it wasn’t a particularly dramatic change, just a move of offices and a difference in clientele.)

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Maybe it’s the particular phrase you use? If that’s being delivered in a flat way, I could see “What will be will be” being interpreted as coming from a bitterly resigned place (to be clear, I’m not saying that’s what you feel).

          What about experimenting with other ways of expressing that feeling of being fine with how things are? Like, “I’m fine with these changes. So about (other work-related topic).”

    2. LGC*

      Just smile more.

      …sorry! I kid, I kid.

      Anyway, so…without knowing the nature of your work, I don’t think it’s a professional issue per se. I do think that your boss is likely concerned about you personally, especially if she doesn’t know that you’re just like that (for lack of a better term). The problem is that your coworkers are picking up on it (and picking on you for it to be quite honest), if anything – but if you generally feel like things are running smoothly between you and your coworkers, I’m not sure whether there’s that much room for concern.

      I think reassuring your boss that this is just the way you are could help – it sounds like that you’re just naturally a reserved person. And definitely tell your coworkers to knock off calling you a robot (because it sounds like you’re not pleased with that).

      If you’re prone to dry humor, you could lean into it – so with the example of your coworker asking whether you feel anything, you could have responded “not really.” But this is a high-risk maneuver – if people don’t get the joke (and it sounds like your colleagues might not), they might take this as commentary on you rather than commentary on their mildly inappropriate behavior.

      1. Adnan E. Mouse*

        Yeah, I’m leaning toward just letting this play out as it will.

        The recent moves have put me in a location where I can go the entire week without running into one of my co-workers, so personal interactions will be limited. Professionally I think we’re moving toward team meetings a few times weekly, but that won’t be for a few weeks yet.

        My only concern is interactions with my boss. These are typically once a week or every couple of weeks, and I imagine the topic will come up again at some point because it always does. And for some reason, no one ever believes you when you say you aren’t depressed.

        (For the record, this has been such a longstanding issue that I was almost put on probation in my graduate program because I “didn’t seem excited” about my ongoing career development.)

        And I actually am prone to dry humor, but usually it’s so dry that no one can tell if I’m joking or not. So, I don’t really joke anymore; helps avoid misunderstandings.

    3. Nacho*

      I’d be concerned about the fact that your boss has this opinion of you, yeah. Some people put a high value on being emotionally extroverted, and it can hold you back if your boss is one of them and you don’t fit that mold. Could you maybe try joining your office’s spirit team or something like that to convince them you’re not depressed?

      1. Adnan E. Mouse*

        I’m not sure what an office spirit team is but I don’t think we have one of those here. And fortunately I’m at the highest level of my job outside of a managerial position, so I don’t have to worry too much about this issue affecting my career progression.

    4. Grace Less*

      I actually had an interviewer bring it up once, and although I was internally FLOORED, I tried to spin it as an asset. I said something like, “my professional personality is naturally calm, yes. That’s been really helpful when a crisis like X came up, and it seems like I become the person on the team that people come to when an issue arises, because I do have more restrained reactions, which can be an asset in problem solving.”

      Knowing that I don’t exude enthusiasm naturally, I’ve tried to compensate for it when I am truly happy. I email congratulations to people as appropriate, and hopefully my words are more sincere without my stoic face accompanying them. :)

      It’s who we are, and a good manager will come to appreciate it. (And it sounds like you have a good manager, who is concerned for you, the whole person, not just you the employee.)

      If you’re not familiar with him, check out Kyle Hendricks from the Chicago Cubs online. He’s internet-famous for being so serious during the game, but he’s one of the most effective players in the league. I refer to him as my spirit animal.

      1. Adnan E. Mouse*

        Consistent interview feedback has been I come across as meek and underwhelming, and I honestly attribute much of that to my flatness. But I’m good at my job and, to me, that’s the most important thing.

        As for trying to compensate when I’m truly happy…

        Well, I can’t think of an instance at work where I’ve been happy enough to express it. I don’t know if it’s the same for my co-workers, but for me at least the only e-mails I receive and send are directly related to my job duties. I don’t really know my co-workers well enough to know when congratulations are in order, either, and now that I’ve been moved to where I don’t really see any of them, I’m buried even further under a rock.

        Which is how I prefer it, honestly, but it does make the comments harder to counter. And I’m trying to think of what I could express happiness about at work, but I’m coming up with nothing. Which isn’t to say I don’t like work – I’m quite content, actually – but noteworthy happiness just isn’t a thing.

    5. Close Bracket*

      My coworkers make passing comments comparing me to a robot, an alien, or otherwise emotionless being.

      Isn’t it delightful being compared to an alien? I’m tempted to tell you to respond with a “go eff yourself,” but I know that’s not constructive. I also have a fair amount of trouble fitting in due to affect, but nobody has gone so far as to say things like to my face. It might be preferable if they did bc at least I would be able to identify the dickheads.

      If you are looking for a group of people who have experience being affectless in an affectful world, look to people on the spectrum. I would check wrongplanet.net to see whether the site owner has a video or a blog post about fitting in when you don’t display emotions, or about ways to display emotions.

      Btw, I think problem 1 and problem 2 are related. Your boss probably thinks you are depressed bc you have a flat affect.

  212. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Question about references early in the job application.

    I’m applying to jobs and some of them ask for references right off the bat. As a rule, I don’t give out my references until after interviewing, to protect my references (especially as some of these are consulting firms who may be trying to build their client base). Sometimes, I’m getting insistence that I have to share my references before even being considered to be interviewed.

    1) Why do you think a company would do this?
    2) How can I politely push back on this without hurting my chances of an interview?
    3) How out of whack am I being in thinking I need to protect my references?

Comments are closed.