open thread – June 28-29, 2019

by Alison Green on June 28, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. JDoe*

    My dilemma is as follows: I work at a law firm and one of the lawyers here is having the 1L summer students do her wedding planning instead of doing anything remotely related to legal work. Things like researching venues or photographers or putting together a pile of sample invitations. Once I have heard her make veiled allusions towards a student’s future career when they pushed back. I’m not a lawyer or a paralegal, I’m her assistant and she is a partner. The firm is one of the biggest in the country and the other partners know her and they are friends but they don’t know me or my name and wouldn’t know me from Adam. Is there anything I can do about this or should I just keep my head down so she doesn’t make veiled threats to me like she did to the student I overheard? It feels wrong but at the same time I need this job and I know I wouldn’t win if I upset her. She has lots of influence among lawyers around here whereas I have none. Thank you for any guidance anyone can provide me.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      Can you tell the students’ schools? They should know that their interns aren’t getting a good experience out of this.

      1. ContentWrangler*

        That was my first thought too! At the very least, the schools can make sure interns aren’t sent to her again. But the schools might also be able to advocate for the current students as well.

      2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        Second this. Just contact the school. Tell them everything and let them handle it.

      4. An actual lawyer*

        These aren’t really interns, they are professional students in a 8 to 10 week interview process. The programs are run completely independently from the schools (i.e. a school doesn’t “approve” or have any influence on the firm or the program) and the 1Ls are being paid big money to do these. Anyone suggesting typical college intern solutions really shouldn’t comment as it does not apply. At all.

          1. Actually a lawyer*

            1) A big law firm will generally have a full time Summer Clerkship coordinator, often in the recruiting office. That would be my first go to, or even the head of recruiting who is usually a senior HR person with the ear of the firm’s top partners.
            2) I would also go to any member of the recruiting committee, which is typically a mix of partners and lawyers. They will share it with the other members and address it as they see fit. Things like this are taken very seriously because the 1Ls are being paid the same rate as full associates and are being evaluated for full time jobs. Doing wedding planning means they won’t have enough summer work to evaluate (typically consisting of attorney ratings, memos, drafts of court filings, etc.) and the firm will have wasted $30k+ on a partner’s wedding planning (who by far has the means to hire a wedding coordinator). Trust me, it will piss them off.
            The thing with partners is that the only people that can keep them in line are other partners. So those are the people that need to address. OP’s only course of action, if she wishes to take it, is to let the right people know and to not get any more involved than that.
            3) OP, go in person so there isn’t an email with your name on it floating everywhere. Also, tell your partner what you’re doing so he can protect you if anything blows back (Partners love good admins and will take them with them from firm to firm often)

              1. JR*

                She is, but I think it’s the rare form these days that has a one-to-one assistant to partner ratio. Most assistants support a few partners.

            2. Kay*

              Also, tell your partner what you’re doing so he can protect you if anything blows back (Partners love good admins and will take them with them from firm to firm often)

              Huh? The lawyer that is doing this is OP’s partner. OP is her admin and she has made it clear the partner isn’t going to protect her at all.

            3. Runaway Shinobi*

              “Also, tell your partner what you’re doing so he can protect you if anything blows back (Partners love good admins and will take them with them from firm to firm often)”

              She can’t do that as the partner who’s setting the interns this work is her boss. No protection there.

            4. C*

              Thanks for this response–I’m not a lawyer but my job involves working with law firms and my first thought was “How the heck is the firm going to feel about these summer associates having no billable hours?” but then I wondered if that was a thing expected of summer associates or if I was mistaken on that.

              1. Cat*

                Actual billables are totally irrelevant for summers. You might “bill your time” — even using real client numbers — but it will 100% be totally written off.

                1. Lilysparrow*

                  At the firms where I worked, this kind of thing would definitely be tracked by accounting, though. They kept a close eye on the costs and profitability of each practice group. Somebody’s eating that cost on their balance sheet, with no deliverables to show for it.

                  Maybe the bride doesn’t care if she invests her profit-sharing in this project, but her partners will want to make sure they aren’t personally underwriting her wedding.

        2. Federal Middle Manager*

          Agreed. It sucks for the 1L, but they are being paid and get a good firm name on their resume for their 2L internship. It will probably be fine.

          1. Ra94*

            But they also get no legal experience or knowledge to speak about or mention future interviews, and they might turn up to their 2L with no idea how to do X or Y because all they did was coordinate wedding cake tastings. This puts them at a huge disadvantage to their peers.

        3. Aunt Piddy*

          My law school coordinated most of our 1L summer associate placements. I think this can vary depending on location, but it’s not necessarily a given that this situation is completely independent from the law school. Many law schools have intern placement (especially for 1Ls, who know hardly anything).

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Is there an internship coordinator or something? Maybe mention it to whoever is in charge of the interns as a whole?

      Also, BARF. What a jerk.

      1. Ann Perkins*

        This was my thought too – I would give a heads up to whoever runs the internship program. If they’re not being paid this is also illegal.

        1. Federal Middle Manager*

          There’s likely no centralized internship program. Law school internships are more like temp work. You apply independently, are paid, and hope to get a full time offer out of it.

          1. Emily K*

            Yeah, if anything I’d be worried that this firm has no intention of hiring any of these kids or they’d presumably be more interested in developing their skills before bringing them on full-time.

            1. Rusty Shackelford*

              Or that if they do want to offer jobs to any of them, the 1Ls won’t be interested, given their experience here.

    3. government worker*

      Ugh, this situation sucks. Can you talk to the 1L and see what, if anything, they’d like to do about this?

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        I second this course of action. I would talk to one of the students or all of them and explain you know what is going on and would back them up if they want to tell someone about it.

        I would not say anything without their permission (at least one of them) because this would mostly blow back on them. The partner could think that it was one of the students who complained. Internships in big law are very competitive. For a select few a good internship can lead to a position before even graduating law school. Even if the firm did know what is going on, if the partner has a lot of billable hours they may very likely overlook this.

        Not to say that this isn’t wrong it is. But a lot of law students would put up with this for that chance of getting a job with the firm after graduation.

        1. CatCat*

          Yeah, it’s really up to the 1L. Honestly, I could see a student putting up with this for the money and connections alone.

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      What the actual eff.

      I second the idea to reach out the schools, they should know that their students aren’t receiving training and are being threatened when they (reasonably) push back.

      This should hopefully also protect you.

      Is there also a way to make an anonymous complaint? I know some companies have whistleblower hotlines, but barring that maybe you could literally write a letter outlining the personal misuse of interns and threats and send it to the partners.

      1. WellRed*

        I second the anonymous note. This is egregious enough, and involves students, that I think it would be enough to trigger someone at least asking the interns what’s going on.

      2. Forrest Rhodes*

        But there’s often an ick factor to anonymous notes, no? In most situations they simply cast suspicion on everyone, and suddenly finding out who wrote the note becomes more important than the note’s original purpose.
        Maybe a quiet conversation with the school’s intern coordinator or maybe the company’s own Intern Wrangler would be more effective?

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Usually! If it’s about something minor or personal that could be better served by actually approaching the person, (like if someone sends you a note saying they think you smell, or that you chew too loudly, etc) then yea, an anonymous note is gross and disruptive.

          But this is a case where the person is doing something actively wrong, the OP has no authority to approach the person, and doing so could actively harm their career. I totally think approaching the intern wrangler or school is the way to go, but I also think that an anonymous note to higher ups to alert them to the situation is an option.

        2. Emily K*

          Yeah, it’s always better to use your name when you’re reporting something but ask the entity you’re reporting to for as much confidence/discretion as the situation allows. The report-receiving entity needs to know they can take the complaint seriously, which is hard to do when you don’t even know who made the complaint, but they don’t necessarily have to tell the person being disciplined who reported them.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            The blowback concern is real, though. I think your boss doing unprofessional things is a reasonable exception to ‘anony notes suck’.

    5. Another Sarah*

      Wow. Awful answers so far and not helpful to OP at all. People who have no idea about things like Biglaw firms and summer positions for law students should refrain from commenting.

      Sorry this is happening OP. My advice is to keep your head down as nothing good will come from you speaking up.

      1. Anathema Device*

        How is that helpful? Why would you not tell the intern coordinator?

        Is it possible that people with ‘no idea’ are giving obvious advice that people blinded by toxic work cultures are unable to see even when it’s staring them in the face?

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          You have a point. But while what is happening is wrong people are not obligated to sacrifice their individual career for the greater good.

            1. Clever Name*

              Hey, that’s really unfair. I can imagine all sorts of situations where one may have to decide that they need to put up with unfairness in the workplace because they cannot afford to lose their job. Not everyone has a support system (like a significant other or family members) that can support them financially if they fired. Many people have no financial safety net and would become homeless within one paycheck if they suddenly do not have a paycheck. If you are in this situation and have minor children who you are solely responsible for, the prospect of living on the streets with them because you spoke up over something icky happening to law students is unthinkable. I’m glad you have the financial/emotional/time/health resources to fall on your own sword for the benefit of others less privileged.

                1. CmdrShepard4ever*

                  Yes but also giving advice about make sure to think about all the possible consequences before making a decision is also valid. If OP decides to do something after thinking about and knowing about possible consequences both good and bad, good for them and I applaud them.

            2. Falling Diphthong*

              Many of us need to live in the world as it is, uncushioned by a trust fund or other means to sit in an ivory castle and reflect on how the system should work in an ideal utopia.

              1. Busy*

                Which is why I don’t ask questions on Fridays anymore. Man, this “perfect world” attitude grows tiring, is unhelpful, and comes across as VERY victim blaming. This isn’t the time to flout your ideals.

                Lets try this new rule:

                No one who relies on a job to literally live is morally required to do anything to jeopardize that job for any reason. Ever. End of sentence. Particularly if that job is the sole support of other people.

                1. Lilysparrow*

                  Considering the types of criminal fraud, dangerous negligence, and literally deadly incompetence that some people are expected to enable or overlook at work, I think that’s a bit sweeping.

                  But something like this certainly doesn’t rise to that level.

            3. Wintermute*

              The LW outright SAID they cannot afford to sacrifice their career.

              This is someone misusing an intern, this is not a tire company selling exploding tires or a mining company dumping mercury-laden tailings into a watershed. This is the world we live in, saying something may ruin her career, that is a fact. This doesn’t rise to the level of immorality or criminality that it’s a moral obligation to burn down your entire career to stop it.

              That’s just being practical.

        2. Brett*

          Read the comment above from “an actual lawyer”. They are not interns. They are summer employees without any involvement from the school.

          1. Dust Bunny*

            They were described in the original question as “summer students” so thinking they were interns and suggesting the LW act accordingly was not unreasonable, though. This thread got unnecessarily nasty really fast. “Uncushioned by a trust fund”?

            1. fhqwhgads*

              I disagree slightly. I’m not a lawyer but I thought it was common knowledge how summer gigs for law students worked. I don’t discount there are people who do not realize this, but I also think it’s very common for even people not involved in law to know that these are not at all like summer interns in other industries. I don’t think the thread is nasty for pointing out that treating these like interns is not at all applicable.

          2. only acting normal*

            Doesn’t matter if it’s not a uni-organised placement.
            If my company mistreated our summer students (also not uni-placements) like this it would certainly be appropriate to give our feeder universities the heads up, so they could warn students off our year-in-industry placements, or not invite us to their career fairs any more. We’d lose out because we rely on that supply of new junior staff.

        3. Ra94*

          I second your point, and also would like to point out you’re living up to your username namesake’s reputation for doing what’s right :-)

      2. An actual lawyer*

        Actually I agree. Lots of the suggestions are incredibly unhelpful because people are thinking in terms of a traditional summer internship for college student that have school affiliation. It is not remotely similar.

        These are not summer internships they are professional school pre-job placements. Effectively you are being interviewed the entire summer. You are paid the exact same wage as you would be paid if you worked there throughout the year. There is no school association. There is no program where the firm would get in trouble.

        The only person to report this to would be the summer program coordinator (who may be a full time person in the recruiting office or who may be one of the other lawyers volunteering for the position) and the other partners in the firm. They will not be happy because they won’t have any summer work to evaluate a candidate on – the candidates are judged by ratings systems and evaluations of sample work. It is a complete waste of everyone’s time to have 1Ls planning a wedding – these 1Ls are being paid upwards of 30K+ for 8-10 weeks of work. That’s a HUGE money investment and the firm will want to recoup that cost by getting good candidates that have been evaluated properly.

        1. Brett*

          “these 1Ls are being paid upwards of 30K+ for 8-10 weeks of work”

          This would also imply that the partner involved is functionally spending tens of thousands of dollars of the firm’s money on wedding planning? (which I bet the IRS would be interested in)

          1. Emily K*

            I would get a kick out of listening to someone try to justify a wedding as a legitimate business expense. “This marriage was necessary to unite our firm’s kingdom with the neighboring duchy. And without proper fanfare, the Duke would have never agreed to marry his son off to our senior partner.”

        2. Anonymousse*

          A recent-ish law grad here and I totally agree with An Actual Lawyer. The only people that will have any sort of HR power over the summer associates are the Summer Coordinators and the Managing Partner. At a super large firm (within the V100s), it is just not feasible for the managing partner to care about stuff like this. The summer coordinator would have less clout to actually do anything about it that wouldn’t guarantee blowback to the law student. At biglaw, it’s the partners that are rainmakers and they’re sadly all that matters. I think the safest bet is to inform the student’s law school’s office of career planning. Most T14 law school’s OCPs are quite powerful in that they can choose limit the firm’s EIW slots or participation.

          1. Anon for this*

            Generally agree with an actual lawyer. (Another lawyer here).

            I doubt the HR folks in charge would care or have authority to do much, if this partner feels free to treat summer associates this way. Complaints were blown off where I worked.

            You could report (anonymously?) to the Above the Law blog. They love to cover summer associate issues.

        4. TootsNYC*

          I would try to casually say, “Do you realize the 1L’s are spending a ton of time planning the wedding for my boss? Pretty much it’s X of their whole day; I haven’t seen Y filings or things from them.”

          Though that might leave you much more vulnerable than you’d be if you just picked whichever other partner is most sensible and nuanced and principled, and asked to speak in a confidential way, and specifically told that person that, because you heard your boss threaten one of the 1L’s for pushing back, that you don’t want her to ever realize it came from you.

          Otherwise–well, the 1L’s know who the other partners are, and who will be evaluating them at the end of the summer. They could speak to them as well.

      3. Ann Perkins*

        How awfully pessimistic. I’ve worked at a big law firm as a paralegal and this would get shut down.

      4. Jadelyn*

        You know, it’s entirely possible to disagree with other people’s suggestions without calling their answers “awful” and implying that anyone who disagrees with you should just shut up.

      5. Wing Leader*

        Disagree. I work in a law firm (albeit, a smaller one) and this would definitely be something that would have to be brought to the attention of one of the other partners.

      6. Not Me*

        I currently work in HR at in a Biglaw firm and we 100% would shut this down and protect the secretary.

      7. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        “Awful answers so far and not helpful to OP at all. People who have no idea about things like Biglaw firms and summer positions for law students should refrain from commenting.”

        I infer from the above that you do have an idea about things like big law firms and summer positions for law students, so what helpful advice to the OP would you give?

        1. Another Sarah*

          Exactly what I wrote right below the quote you posted:

          My advice is to keep your head down as nothing good will come from you speaking up.

          1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

            What are the ramifications of no one saying or doing anything? Not being snarky, just really not familiar with how law firms operate. So far I am seeing several people pointing out that the partner is effectively stealing sizable amounts of money from the firm, and that the word is guaranteed to get out. In what ways can this negatively affect the firm, which is where the OP gets their paycheck from? Like I said, not a llama, but in my field (business) I’ve seen people speak up in the “Fergus the new exec will run our company out of business if he doesn’t stop doing things the way he does” type of situations – no one wants to lose their job because the company had to downsize or shut down.

            Also, I’d bet $100 that, if Wedding Partner gets away with this, then two years from now the summer students will be babysitting as part of their jobs.

            1. Anon for this*

              I don’t think it would be considered stealing as summer associate work isn’t billed out to clients. This is really a know your firm thing. If there is a partner the admin trusts, I’d Reach out to them. But if this particular partner feels free to threaten summer associates, it’s not a good sign.

              1. Anon for this*

                Just wanted to note that as a former law firm attorney and now a client, I would be pissed if law firms charged me for summer associate research. They need to cover the costs of training their own people and especially their summer associates. So the main problems here seem to be a bad experience (training is negligible during these summers) and being exposed to a toxic workplace and learning to just tolerate it moving forward, like a lot of us do.

      8. Academic librarian*

        I am with Another Sarah,
        It is up to the intern to say something about the work assignment. Keep your head down if you want to remain in this position.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      At a large firm there are going to be attorneys who run the summer associate program. Find a way to mention to one of them that summer associates are being asked to do wedding planning. Don’t share it in a tattling way, just in a confused way.

      1. LadyByTheLake*

        And to everyone above to says to tell the schools, in the US that isn’t how it works. I’m with Another Sarah on this.

    7. Sunflower*

      Talk to the person who is coordinating the program- it’s most likely someone in recruiting or learning/development. I used to work in BigLaw and I know the summer associates are in discussion groups and they all talk among schools and places about their experiences. Most firms spend the summer trying to dazzle the associates and impress them so this is a huge no-no moreso than any other ‘intern’ program. This will come out and people will find out. I’d be surprised if people didn’t already know.

      If you are worried, I’d talk(in person, not email- no trail) to the coordinator and just say you should check in on what X associate’s workload is looking like. I’m not sure if they do check-ins with the associates as the summer goes on but this would be a good excuse to.

      1. JDoe*

        Thank you for replying. I know she has instructed the students to lie if they are asked what they are doing and I know she is work friends with the person who coordinates the students and they might be friends outside of work too, so I am reluctant to say anything. You have given me things to consider so thank you for that.

        1. Another JD*

          Few 1Ls in this situation would throw the partner under the bus. How many interns does she have doing her wedding planning? I think if there are enough of them, they can get together and push back. Do they rotate partners, or just work for her?

        2. Not Me*

          Can you talk to HR? While it’s true that partners only “report” to the managing partner, there is plenty HR should be able to do about this.

          Not only is it a huge waste of time and money, it’s also horrible for your firms reputation. I imagine your recruiting committee would be very unhappy if they found out about this.

        3. ShysterB*

          Ugh. It sucks that you can’t count on the coordinator for the summer program. I’m a partner at an AmLaw 100 firm, and yeah, this is ridiculous. The summer program coordinator should shut this down — Summer associates are surveyed at multiple levels after-the-fact for feedback on summer programs (by the firm itself, by their schools, by American Lawyer, by NALP), and this is the sort of thing I could see showing up in those surveys, or on Above the Law.

          Are any of the summer associates dragooned into wedding planning ones that your Diversity Committee is eager to recruit? If so, that MIGHT be a way to start some examination — the chairs of my firm’s diversity committee really go out of their way to foster relationships with diverse summer associates and set themselves up as approachable about issues/concerns that the diverse summer associates might be reluctant to raise with the summer program chairs. Our diversity partners would be VERY displeased to find out that recruits they are targeting are wasting time on something like this.

    8. Stella70*

      To me, this is a finite problem. These are summer students, not permanent employees, and she is having them do the initial research on her wedding, which is a one-off event. It is very unfair in all regards, but I cannot see what will be made equitable if you attempt to intervene (notice I didn’t say “what you would gain” because I know you aren’t trying to benefit from blowing the whistle). There are times in your career where your choice about speaking up or not will be very clear to you and the benefits will outweigh the risks you will take, but I don’t think this is that time. The students are not gaining anything this summer, which is a shame, but hopefully being able to say they interned at one of the biggest firms in the country will negate that loss. Your boss is a partner and the assumption she can delegate as she chooses is inherent to her position. If you truly think speaking out would not create change, and she is likely to threaten you if you do so, and your job is paramount, then I feel you already know the answer.
      Perhaps you could offer to assist the students during any downtime you have, so their wedding tasks are completed more quickly and they can actually do legal work before the summer is over? I don’t know how many students you are referring to, but surely it wouldn’t take the entire summer (at some point, she will need to take over to make decisions).
      Good luck!

      1. Chip Hackman*

        For big law firms, these summer associate programs are extremely important for the students. Many students from T14 schools receive an offer at the end of the summer they worked there and then begin actually working there after graduation. Students may have gone in to this thinking that this was going to be their permanent job after graduation as long as they didn’t completely mess it up. If this is all they do this summer, that can greatly impact their futures. I think OP should go to HR if the partner in question is buddies with the summer coordinator or go to another partner to discuss it.

      3. T*

        Big law firms are different 1Ls are important and most firms wooo the best ones. My spouse worked at a big fancy law firm and one year there was a problem at an event with the 1Ls. I won’t get into it but it wasn’t good and the other partners shut that down, people were demoted or fired, etc. This partner should know better. I would contact the school on the DL, HR and any other partners who are more senior than your partner. Are you friendly with any other more senior partner assistants? I think the 1Ls should also let it be known and it probably is already known by other law students. This makes your partner and your law firm look bad, but this doesn’t even come close to what my husband’s firm had happen. They made it right and do should your firm.

    9. Booksalot*

      Ask on Corporette. They skew heavily law, and may have dealt with something similar before.

    10. CTT*

      Find out who coordinates the summer program (if you’re a big firm it’s probably head of recruitment? We just have someone we refer to as a the work czar at my firm since we’re relatively smaller) and tell them ASAP. They can either make it stop or at least get other lawyers to give this summer work so she can legit say she has other work to do.

    11. SpellingBee*

      If it’s a big firm you will have an HR department, so I’d take it to them. They’ll have the standing (presumably) to elevate it to the committee or person running the summer intern program, to put a stop to this. Partners in Big Law wield considerable power, but there are quite a few layers above and around them, so they’re not immune to being reined in.

      If you’re afraid you’ll jeopardize your job by saying something that’s certainly a consideration, but you’d be doing the students a favor if you can flag this for them. It’s inappropriate, and is cheating the summers of the experience that they should be getting.

    12. Llamalawyer*

      Wow, that is crazy and so wrong . If you’re a large law firm, there was be some sort of compliance or ethics person. The students are likely getting paid a hefty salary, so this is theft. She is stealing a corporate resource to do her own personal wedding planning. Also, there is usually a summer associate committee or individual in charge of the program. He or she would want to know about this.

      1. Busy*

        I second some sort of whistle blowing if the firm has it. But YIKES, what a thing to be forcing people new to the work world to do. I can’t imagine anything more selfish.

    13. NopeNopeLeNope*

      Law school staffer here – please, do tell the schools’ career development department on the DL. The schools have relationships with these firms that they are very proud of and this could do the school some serious damage if they are touting “our students become summer associates and are getting real world experience at BigFirm” and then it leaks out that the students were doing wedding planning.

      1. TootsNYC*

        yeah, even though the school has no authority in this situation, they can provide this info to their graduates (though, the 1L’s should be passing that feedback to the school)

      2. Ginevra Farnshawe*

        Lawyer (formerly fancy biglaw) here agreeing that letting law school career services know is actually a pretty effective way to get change accomplished in firms, IF it’s a fancy law school—I’ve done it. Firms are prestige-obsessed and top-ranked schools have A LOT of leverage. (It’s unfair and silly, but just taking practicalities.) Generally I’d say it would be much more effective coming from a summer themself (and it’ll get back to school admin anyway) or an alum who works at the firm but this is so bonkers out-of-line that a confidential tip-off might work too. Are you admin for anyone else or just this winner? And is she pulling these shenanigans with 2L summers or just 1Ls?

        1. Ginevra Farnshawe*

          Other followup qs, are student recruiting lead and summer coordinator same person? At a big firm, usually not—latter is an typically attorney, not in recruiting. Is this partner a legitimate big shot or a service partner? (Possible to get this shut the eff down in either case, but the approach differs.)

          1. Anonymousse*

            Yep yep yep. This is the best advice I’ve seen so far. It seriously depends on whether the partner is a rainmaker/Big Deal or not. And definitely report this to the school. If the student in question is a 1L then chances are that they won’t be interested in returning in the first place for their 2L summer but this is a seriously crappy thing to do to a 2L summer because 3L OCI/EIW market is tough even for T14 students. My sympathies and rage is with the student as the last you’d want is to have the choice of either doing s***-work or risk being blacklisted by the legal market if the partner in question is really as powerful as you say OP.

        3. JDoe*

          They are different people so that’s something for me to consider. I appreciate your reply. Thank you. I only work for her and no one else. She is only doing this with 1L students, both men and women and she has them doing only wedding stuff and nothing else.

          1. Crystal*

            Don’t the 1Ls have to produce content? She asks them to lie, okay but what about tangible work product, don’t that have to have that at some point? You need to anonymously report this to people if you feel at all comfortable doing that because it is screwing over these students.

          2. Ginevra Farnshawe*

            If she is targeting 1L s she is a dum-dum as well as a megalomaniac. A 1L biglaw summer from a hotshot school has more leverage than they probably will for the next fifteen years–they don’t have to worry about getting an offer, because they’ll get that from wherever they summer 2L year, and they can torpedo a recruiting relationship. If/when summers mention this stuff to you it might be worth raising an eyebrow and saying “Really? That’s a new one. Have you mentioned it to recruiting?” so that they know it’s not normal, but I bet they do already. They’re all excited because they just learned about issue-spotting too, and they’ll spot this one.

            I’d bet this will out itself with or without you, and I am not one to normally have faith in firm governance. They’ll probably prevent her from working with summers in the future–this is pretty common. Might take two years of nonsense rather than one.

            I’d see if there are policies and procedures about non-attorneys reporting potential attorney ethics violation and follow those if they exist (see my comment at 1:38 below). But if there aren’t any explicitly stated ones, while it’s totally within reason to go to HR or recruiting (thinking of it now, less a fan of you going to the school yourself–effective, but unnecessary risk), this one is not uniquely on your shoulders and you should do what you think is best for your own personal situation/sanity. (I will say, sometimes if you get a real twerp knocked down a peg you become a folk hero and have some protection and actually improved prospects, but it’s a big risk.)

            Out of curiosity–is this person a litigator? I am guessing not, but testing my instincts.

          3. MeepMeep*

            Can the 1L students go to a different partner and ask for different work? When I was a 2L intern at a big firm, that’s exactly what I did; rather than wait for the assigning associate to give me something, I just knocked on a partner’s door and asked for work. I got much more interesting assignments that way and got an offer at the end of my summer.

            It may be worthwhile suggesting it to the interns working for that person.

          4. Auntie Social*

            Could the law school dean happen to “drop by unannounced” to see what his 1L’s are working on??? ;-)

    14. Mama Bear*

      Our interns are basically pre-hires as well. Though a different type of company, our HR would probably be very interested to know that an intern was planning a wedding instead of designing teapots, and it would also be detrimental to the intern later if s/he were hired under the assumption that s/he had greater experience with teapots than actually occurred. While I get that she’s pretty high up, I would either mention it to the coordinator or encourage the 1L to do so. I hazard to guess that lack of real experience/portfolio this summer is going to bite them later and they need to put an end to it sooner rather than later. If she’s balking at real work, then she’s not being a proper mentor.

    15. Rose Tyler*

      At a firm as large as yours there should be an anonymous ethics compliant hotline run by a third-party provider, not internal personnel. That is where I would start. I would not pin my name to it by going directly to the summer associate coordinator or (!!!) the managing partner.

      1. ShysterB*

        Oooh, that makes me wonder — is this something the Office of General Counsel at the firm would take interest in?

        1. CM*

          No, because it’s not a liability issue for the firm. It’s a reputation issue where the schools are involved — if it’s a prestigious school that the firm wants to recruit from, this is a bad look for the firm.

          JDoe, I hate to say this but I’d stay out of it. The offending partner is your boss; the person managing the summer program is her buddy; the students aren’t saying anything. All those people have more power than you, and you know biglaw is incredibly hierarchical.

          The students will eventually spill this to their law school’s career services, and then there is likely to be blowback without you getting involved. Unless you feel very strongly about this and feel secure in your job, I think you’d be taking a big risk by saying anything.

          1. Not Me*

            Of course the OGC would care if summer associates are being asked to lie by a partner. What other unethical things is this partner doing? It opens a huge can of worms that the OGC would care about.

        2. Ginevra Farnshawe*

          It absolutely is. A lawyer telling their subordinates to *lie* about what they’re working on, especially if they’re told to lie and say they’re doing client work, is probably a sanctionable violation of the applicable Code of Professional Responsibility. I’d guess that if another partner learned about it they’d have partnership obligations to report it to the OGC or whatever risk management committee. Whether anything then *happens* is a different question. Not legal advice just informed speculation based on fact set presented.

          This one really ticks me off.

    16. Law Student*

      Wow! I’m a current law student and working at my 1L internship (not at a firm). I’m going to be interviewing shortly for big firms for next summer, and this strikes me as wildly inappropriate.

      All that said, I’d expect the 1Ls to advocate for themselves in this situation. If I were in this position, I’d probably call my career adviser to get advice on how to handle the situation. Not expecting that they would fix it for me, but expecting that they’d be able to help me manage it. I have seen that some of my classmates are very reluctant to self-advocate, so I’m not entirely surprised that the students are going along with it. At this point, I wouldn’t be considering returning to this firm for 2L, let alone wanting to work with this partner in the long term, so while they have to be professional and polite, I think there’s room for the students to figure out a way to tactfully push back on this. (And while I wouldn’t have the expectation that they could fix it for me, I wouldn’t be entirely surprised if they could pull some behind-the-scene strings). (Also, it seems like most of the firms assign summer associates a mentor; I’d also be asking for their advice).

      I saw that the partner told the students to LIE about what they’re doing — that’s insane. Frankly, this is the kind of thing that would make it onto Above the Law and could really damage the firm’s reputation in that market. I’m lucky to be at a top school and firms care about their reputations with the schools and the students. I think, as a student, my career adviser would help me discreetly raise this to someone who would go OH HELL NO and tactfully shut it down. I mean, having the students work on personal stuff and lie about it at the insanely high rates they’re paid seems like it may actually verge over into something more serious, although I don’t know enough to say what. (Are they filling out fake billables? Or does she want them to say they’re doing training/development stuff or pro bono or what?? What the heck.)

      As an assistant, I wouldn’t expect you to risk damaging your relationship with the partner since she sounds vindictive. Depending on what you’re comfortable with, maybe you could take the students aside and mention to them that this is not normal and that they might consider reaching out to their school for advice. I would be worried about reaching out to the school directly impacting your career negatively but you’re in the best position to judge that. If you decide to keep your head down I think it’s justifiable; the students will probably just go to a different firm next year and they’ll be fine. At the end of the day they’re adults and should be able to figure this out themselves (even if that means making the decision to just go along with it).

      1. Marie*

        This is the best answer so far! Part of growing up is advocating for yourself. It is also important to learn when to advocate for others. The word “advocate”—love it—isn’t it connected in meaning to lawyer? In this context I do believe the responsibility for reporting (and bearing the possible gains and losses from such is the responsibility of the interns.

        1. Marie*

          At the same time, I personally would have a difficult time staying quiet about this; I think the suggestions for reporting are helpful. The letter writer best knows the work place (options) and can weigh all these suggestions as to which would be most effective.

      2. MissDisplaced*

        This has been an interesting discussion. After some consideration, I think OP should probably set this one out and let the 1l interns handle this one. Because I guarantee it will come out, if not now, by the end of summer.

        While this sounds disturbing, it will be OP who pays the price for speaking up and honestly the pushback to planning the partner’s wedding needs to come from them, not the OP.

    17. Tigger*

      Please tell someone! This is so not right. 1L summer students are there to learn law not do random tasks. I am surprised your firm is in the dark about this. My dad is an attorney and he was a mentor in his firm’s summer program and they had very strict rules about what the 1L summer students could do. I remember having to go to work with him one day when I was 8 or 9 and my dad getting a firm talking to by the head of staff that he stepped out of his office for a second and left me and the student alone because of the optics (I was so engrossed in my pokemon game I had no idea my dad left)

    18. Public Sector Manager*

      First off, to give folks an idea of what summer associates are making, these law students are, depending on Biglaw location, getting around $2,500-$3,500 per week for their summer labor. These are not college kids making barely over minimum wage. What the partner is doing sucks, but these summer associates are being highly compensated for their summer work. It’s their fight to fight, and according to the OP, only one summer associate pushed back.

      Second, for the OP, I would leave it to the summer associates to take this one up, either with the firm or to report the information back to the school (which may make a difference for future on-campus interviews). I absolutely applaud you for looking out for the summer associates, but as you well know, Biglaw is a cutthroat business. I wouldn’t recommend that you take on this fight.

      1. Anonymouse for this*

        +1 – it’s great that you want to look out for the students but at the end of summer they’ll go back to school and you are going to be the one left working for the partner. I wouldn’t jeopardize my job for this which sounds like it’s a possibility given how you describe the partner.
        Also I can’t imagine that the students do not know what at least some of their options are – talk to another partner, talk to whoever arranged this summer associate work for them – they are choosing not to do that.

  2. Eillah*

    Need a space to vent— why is there such a wide skill gap between admins, even at the same company??? I’m a senior administrator at my new job, and the quality of coworkers is just weird. Some are amazing and I’d trust them with my life, and some can’t even spell their own bosses’ names correctly. I know this must be true of a lot of jobs but why is it that sh*tty admins are able to make it to high positions?? Super annoying when you have to rely on the skills of an unskilled, unintelligent, low-quality coworker. Ugh.

    1. DaniCalifornia*

      I’ve experienced this. It’s very frustrating! I like learning all I can and have always encountered others who are unwilling to go beyond the basic job functions that will keep them from getting fired.

      1. Eillah*

        And maybe this is my english degree coming out but….admins need to be really good communicators. Why would you hire someone with bad writing and spelling for a job that hinges partly on effective written communication?? Makes no sense.

        1. Busy*

          I dunno. For my own sanity, I always just say to myself “Well, maybe they have other skills I don’t get to see that are then valued.” Cuz crappy people get in the cracks like dirt, but they must have some value even if that value is that their manager doesn’t feel like going through the process of firing.

          I will say in my experience, you will not see a lot of this in well-functioning companies. You will see a lot more of those eye-rolly type behaviors (like playing music too loud or being a little too excited about free food), but not full level incompetence. I would use that as a gauge on this company and proceed as your see fit.

    2. Rey*

      I think this might be caused by hiring practices. Some places/supervisors start out thinking “I can train anyone to answer phones/emails, take minutes, etc.” and so they don’t have concrete criteria during the hiring process, or the hire the first not-terrible candidate instead of holding out for a candidate who has experience and glowing references.

      It can also be caused by the supervisors not tuning into the quality of the admin work and doing the training necessary once the admin is hired. They might feel like it’s not their responsibility, but it can sometimes give admins too much leeway (which works well for good employees and quickly backfires for bad employees).

      1. Ama*

        Yes — in my experience (as both an admin and now, as a person who hires admins) if the hiring manager has no admin experience themselves, they often don’t really know what to look for and tend to undervalue how much critical thinking is required in a busy admin job. Especially if they previously lucked into a stellar admin who was just good at multitasking and prioritizing without much training, they think *all* admins can just figure that stuff out on their own and don’t bother to screen for that in interviews — and many, as you mention don’t know how to help an admin who isn’t good at those things and end up working around their weaknesses.

        And although this is *rarely* the case, I did know a boss who intentionally kept a not so great admin around because they were exploiting the admin’s lack of attention to detail in order to misuse company funds, because the admin signed off on expense reports without double checking whether the expenses had previously been submitted. (The boss was later caught and fired but not until they had pocketed quite a bit of money.)

      2. Amethystmoon*

        Sometimes, it can be caused by managers wanting to be too nice to applicants, especially if there aren’t very many applications for a particular job. I’ve told stories about my previous co-worker who went through the same training I did and kept asking questions that were already documented, and the documentation & applicable screen shots were sent to him multiple times with sections highlighted, even 2 1/2 years later.

      3. The Rat-Catcher*

        I agree with this. Managers hire for “generally cheerful, maybe has experience in an office, okay with tedious tasks.” What they don’t hire for but should: Comfortable troubleshooting every piece of equipment in the office, people-savvy enough to know where to go when that thing urgently needs a signature on Friday afternoon, adaptable, and some kind of forecasting to know what’s needed before it’s needed.

    3. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      In the case of my team, it’s a supervisor who is burned out and marking time until retirement. No one gets feedback, excellence isn’t rewarded, adequacy is tolerated, and the result is that the excellent folks have to turn off that part of their personalities to preserve their sanity.

    4. Elizabeth West*

      Gee, I don’t know. Except for budgeting, I’m very skilled and I can’t even get a sh*t admin job.
      /s

        1. Ella P.*

          Being an admin in NYC is the best… now in Philly…………..

          Sorry, I guess I need to vent as well… here they think admins are for making cupcake flags and setting up catering… it’s tough… and I work with a number of coworkers who will complain for days about transcribing minutes… all while I’ve run circles around them and often have to do the work they don’t have the skills to do (in Excel and PPT).

          OK I really didn’t MEAN to vent here, starting my job search today and can relate to your post… I don’t get it… and I am really missing New York.

        2. Seeking Second Childhood*

          I hope this week’s commenter whose boss makes her wear her clothes sees this.

    5. Art3mis*

      As a former admin I think it’s because the person they support likes them so as they move up, so does their admin. I’ve known quite a few to follow their bosses to new roles/departments/companies. Most were good at what they did, I couldn’t explain the others though.

      1. Eillah*

        I think it’s partly that and partly people not valuing admins and thus not caring all that much who ends up filling the role.

        1. Jerk Store*

          As an admin, I think it can hurt when the supervisor has never been an admin or even in Operations and don’t have a way to measure what is the difference between admin skills. When I have gone on interviews, I get asked if I have skills in Outlook, Excel, Word, etc. I do, but I have rarely been tested in the interview process. So someone can say on their resume that they have a lot of skills in Outlook on their resume, and once they get hired you are showing them how to pull up a group calendar 3 times a week.

          1. MoopySwarpet*

            I’ve been bitten by not testing for this particular lie. Fortunately for us, we were able to shuffle the minimal need for certain skills to better equipped employees. Unfortunately for the hire, the “room for advancement” evaporated.

            We had a temp employee (along the lines of an intern) who was tasked with creating a massive spreadsheet for projections of usage by customer. He would literally use his calculator on the computer (by clicking the numbers with the mouse!!) and then enter those on the required line on the spreadsheet. :headdesk:

        2. Ella P.*

          Yes, I’ve seen that too. They don’t expect much and therefore tolerate all kinds of nonsense. I guess it may be there experience with other admins that ‘teaches’ them this?

      2. A tester, not a developer*

        +1. I’ve known admins that moved up with ‘their’ execs, and often the things that are valued are not what you’d immediately think of – it could be something like not being easily intimidated , and thus ‘protecting’ their exec from being hassled, or they tolerate certain personality quirks, or they’ve been with the exec long enough that they know what that person wants/needs for a lot of routine stuff.

        1. Jerk Store*

          This is true. Also building relationships – I worked with an admin who had been there forever and could be overly confrontational with people but she knew everything about all of our clients and everyone loved her.

        2. Horses for courses*

          +1+1. A good admin is a partner. There is something the admin brings to the table that the exec values. Or the admin has the same weaknesses as the exec, and just like the exec is not held accountable for those weakness, neither is the admin.

      3. Jill March*

        This has been my experience. In one particular case, the admin was missing a lot of technical and soft skills expected for an executive admin, but was fiercely loyal to their executive. This is what the exec valued most, so as the exec moved up, they kept their admin with them.

        Ultimately, it was a disservice to the admin. The exec ended up getting fired for suspected embezzlement (long story–and really explains the high value on loyalty), and the admin was out of a high-paying job without the skills necessary to find anything near the same pay range. Other than naivety, the admin (who was a lovely person) had no involvement in the shadiness with missing funds, so they really were SOL.

      4. BethDH*

        Also if they’ve never had a good admin (or worked closely with someone else’s), they may not know what is reasonable to expect. Admins can have quite a lot of experience and specialized skillsets, but a lot of people never get out of the habit of thinking of it as non-specialist or even entry level and set the standards (and often the pay) too low.

        1. KR*

          This! And also if the manager or company is used to good admins who just handle everything for them, then when they’re hiring they don’t know what to screen for because their admin usually just… Handles … Everything

    6. Polymer Phil*

      I think it’s because every job under the sun requires a 4-year degree today, so the smarter people who would have gotten promoted from admin jobs in the past get stuck there now regardless of ability. I’ve had some older co-workers who started as secretaries (no one called them admins in the old days) and moved into higher-level positions, and this pretty much never happens anymore.

      1. Hepzibah Pflurge*

        Please don’t perpetuate the fallacy that “smarter people” get promoted from admin jobs. Just…don’t.

        1. Just my thoughts*

          Thinking generously, I’m imagining Phil means that women and others who would have been stuck entering the workforce as entry-level secretaries (and often remaining there) are now able take other kinds of entry-level jobs if they want them, or move to people-managing roles.

          But nowadays each role is more specialized and workers change companies more often than they move laterally within a company, so it’s harder for people who do join as entry-level admins to get promoted to more complex work–there are fewer non-entry-level admin jobs and the higher level tasks are not considered admin work (or people don’t think an admin can do it) so there’s nowhere for bright, ambitious admins to go.

    7. NothingIsLittle*

      Apparently, good admins are hard to find and the best ones aren’t often looking to stay admins. The admins just good enough to squeak by end up accruing the most seniority and sometimes that’s enough for a promotion.

    8. Emily K*

      My first guesses are:

      – High-level admins aren’t being paid enough to attract the best candidates, who can easily make a LOT of money as an executive assistant to a C-suite if they’re great at what they do, so they’re hiring people with little to no experience into high-level positions because they’re the ones who will accept the pay rate.

      – The bosses suck at hiring.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Hiring managers who don’t care or don’t vet well enough causes this to happen.

      In some positions that are seen as “low rung” in their eyes they think anyone and everyone can do the job, so they just hire whomever they like in the interview stage. Then you’re left to work with absolute dunces in some cases.

      It’s a management thing, it’s the core of the problem. They don’t care or the fact that admins like yourself are picking up the slack, so they just say “Admins are great, everyone is fine.”

    10. Michael Valentine*

      I’m often amazed at the range of skill sets for folks with the same admin job title. I work with admins at other companies all the time, and some are so incompetent I’m wondering how they aren’t fired immediately! The ones at my current company are great (full disclosure: I’m one of them!), but we’ve put up with mediocre teammates in the past because finding even a half-way decent assistant can be so challenging that we’ll do our best to bring folks up to speed.

      We did have to ask our leadership to stop recommending family members for these positions. They’d assume these are just entry level jobs anyone can do. While a couple of us got into the field by chance and caught on fast (full disclosure: I’m one of them!), we really need folks with demonstrated experience managing all this stuff.

    11. min*

      I agree with the others who have mentioned the hiring practices. So many people think that anyone can do an admin job and don’t recognize it as a skilled position so they don’t hire with any care or respect.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      My thought is when a bad employee stays in place and then moves to higher positions that has very little to do with the employee and a lot to do with the boss(es) involved.

      On rare occasion it can be that one might think an employee needs to do x,y and z. But the job does not require that skill/ability. So there is that rare time where something is expected of an employee that is beyond the scope of their job. In this case though, usually the employee or boss will point out, “Jane is not authorized to do X.” And that ends that confusion.

    13. Leela*

      My guess, but couldn’t say for sure:

      Business just don’t take admin seriously. Admin is important, and people can be very skilled, strategic admins. But companies don’t invest well in admin usually, resulting low retention. I saw the same thing in HR unfortunately. You really want good HR, but if you devalue them to the extent that many companies do, good ones leave over and over and they wind up taking whoever.

    14. Lumen*

      Partly because it is thought of culturally as a low skilled, low credentialed, low paying, low status job. It shouldn’t be, and doing it effectively requires a lot. But a lot of people applying don’t know that – they’ve been told that a turtle with a pleasant phone voice can do the job. And a lot of people posting the job and hiring for it don’t know that, either.

    15. AccountantWendy*

      As a former admin that misspelled my OWN name due to severe overwork and exhaustion – sometimes it’s shitty management not actually investing the time or training or providing the tools admins need to be good at their jobs well or even just giving clear and consistent feedback and guidance.

    16. paperpusher*

      An admin who works with me says that the way to move up is to be useless. He’s cynical but there’s a grain of truth in it. This is the public sector so the best way to get rid of a useless admin is to promote them to a role that no one really values. I know of a business analysis officer who is a prime example of this – he couldn’t handle financial stuff so he’s now in a “big picture” role. He may not do anything, but at least things aren’t going in with the wrong general ledger code.

      What we also see with our less competent admins is that they’re given less detail-oriented work which is sometimes higher profile, while the best people are bogged down with the invisible stuff. For example, the incompetent admin here is currently selecting photos representing our corporate history to hang on the walls, because no one trusts him with their travel claims.

      1. Michael Valentine*

        I hear truth in this. I’ve been in the midst of negotiating a role shift, and my excellence in assisting is actually holding me back because the folks I support don’t want to let me go.

    17. Former Retail Manager*

      My best guess would be that they made it that far because 1) they didn’t quit and 2) they may have institutional knowledge that helps them to get things done and maybe 3) they know the right people

      At my org, it’s mostly #1. Our admins aren’t paid very well and there is virtually no room for advancement so at some point, a warm body who does half ass work is better than nobody at all.

    18. Nessun*

      Oh dear Lord, I’ve no idea. I absolutely understand and sympathize, but the only reason I’ve ever found is twofold: some people are better at others at playing politics (can’t fire me because X, even though it’s a BS use of X), or some high-level staff don’t know what good admin work looks like, so they’ve no idea what expectations to have/enforce/etc.

    19. Windward*

      I’ve felt that way about staff/mgmt at all levels at times. Treating people with respect goes a long way toward willing cooperation & toward learning about individual skill sets you may not anticipate, which is not to say people will magically acquire the skills you want at the moment.

      I watched an admin asst manage two depts in a row, without standard English (born & raised in the US, high school graduate) & at a meager salary. The second Dept head went to bat for a raise for her, & the job was recategorized when HR finally understood what she was doing for the organization. It’s been fun to watch her excel with managers who could see past the non standard (but very expressive) English.

    20. Jen*

      My perspective as a person who worked for almost a decade in a couple of positions with an admin. asst. or secretary title, and whose current position has many similar duties:

      I found myself constantly amazed that what I thought was a *competent* job at my work was often perceived by others as *extraordinary*. It would have been really, really easy to do a much worse job and still be perceived as someone who was good enough at her job not to fire her. I have witnessed this. From the inside, working in a position where everyone had basically the same responsibilities, it was incredibly easy to tell who was hitting it out of the ballpark (that is, doing a competent job) and who was barely doing anything but skating by anyway. Nothing meaningful was ever done. Talking to others over the years, I don’t think this is as unusual as it felt at the time. In a different position I again did what I thought was a pretty good job, but nothing extraordinary. I did all my tasks in a timely and efficient manner, and kept information and paperwork properly organized. I was treated like the freaking second coming.

      So in short, I think that standards in many places are extraordinarily low in terms of expectations. I think that a lot of people could probably be working a lot faster and making fewer mistakes, but it’s easier to not put in that much effort and work a little slower and make more mistakes. But not so much that they’re fired. *I* could have put in more effort at the jobs where people thought I was the best thing since sliced bread, and I always felt kind of awkward taking the compliments about how I was doing my job because I never felt like I was doing more than what any decent employee would do.

      Low expectations from management mean that some people will just be skating by, and some will be putting in effort, resulting in a big difference to the people they are supporting with their work.

      1. Sophia Brooks*

        I have had this experience, too. People still regularly think I am a genius for using things like mail merge. I just try my hardest to NEVER retype something, because I make errors all the time because I am not detail oriented and I abhor repetitive tasks I wish, frankly, I had been able to just make more money moving up in admin jobs (although I am a University employee, so there is more variety in what we do- I did a lot of admissions and building online coursework). Instead I moved up and am an Instructional Designer, but I think I was much better and worth more just making sure everything was running smoothly!

        I think part of the reason this is happening is that there are so many more career options open to women and women know about it. I was a first generation college student in the 90s, I studied theatre and English, and when I decided I wasn’t going to make it in theatre, admin was the only thing I could think of to do. I didn’t know I could be in PR or recruitment or admissions or registration until I started working at a university. There are actually four theatre majors turned admins in my building and though two of us moved on, we were all really good and people thought we were geniuses!

    21. Melissa*

      In my organization, it’s because the admin jobs are filled in two ways. First, the promotion of skilled staff who want the admin role, and second, the results of incompetent staff being bounced from other civil service departments…

    22. CheeseNurse*

      If you don’t value admin assistants and don’t understand the skills required to be a good admin assistant how could you possibly hire someone who will be great at the job? And someone who doesn’t value admin assistants is certainly not going to compensate them at a rate that will attract high performers, and they probably will not treat them with respect. That goes for any job, but quite a few people assume being an admin assistant is easy and that any idiot can do it.

  3. Peaches*

    So I’ve written in several times over the past month regarding my coworker who I helped train (various sagas include: Coworker begging to use my personal iPad, using my computer equipment and not returning it, not following directions and thus massively screwing up a large project, being kicked out of a corporate training for being controversial and rude, insisting that she get IT’s contact information to help them “fix” our website, despite having no IT experience, and her position not being IT-related, etc.)

    Anyway, I mentioned about a month ago that our branch manager had sent out an email saying he was letting this coworker go, but she would be staying on until we found someone new. After he sent that email, I had a discussion with him about how it would be difficult for me to have time to train the new coworker this time around, now that my new job has picked up tremendously. He totally understood, and said that he would plan on the new person would be trained 100% by designated trainers at our corporate office (which is driving distance from our office).
    Well, the new person started on Wednesday of this week. I thought this meant my old coworker would be gone, yet…she’s still here. Not only that, but she has (what I believe is taking it upon herself) to train the new coworker. I would love to clarify with our branch manager (her manager) why this is happening, but he’s on vacation this week. I just can’t think of a reason why our new employee is being trained by our old employee, who has already been let go (again, not sure why she is still here at all now that the new person has started). Considering all the performance and personnel issues she had in this role, I think it’s a terrible idea to have her train the new employee. Not to mention, the branch manager made it clear to me that she was going to be trained via corporate.

    Coincidentally, one of the employees (Bob) at our office’s wife is a trainer at our corporate office. Bob told me that his wife gave the new employee two weeks’ worth of online training, and then she would be going to our corporate office for a week for in-person training. That further solidifies to me the idea that Old Coworker is deliberately taking it upon herself to train New Coworker, despite being given no direction to do so. Old Coworker has literally made a bee line to New Coworker every day since she started, immediately saying “Okay, here’s what I have planned for you today”, and “I made such and such training document for you” (which, I can’t even imagine what that contains…as a poor performer, I wouldn’t trust any training documents she has made).

    Over the past couple of weeks, I overheard multiple conversations between Old Coworker and Branch Manager where he essentially said, “okay, when New Employee starts, that’s when we’ll be dismissing you.”
    I’m also really concerned Old Coworker will tarnish New Coworker’s view of this position and our company. I’ve already heard Old Coworker whispering to New Coworker several times in hushed tones, as well as (in a note so quiet voice) complained about the corporate trainers, about how antiquated our website is, and how X, Y, and Z processes need to be “fixed.”

    I don’t know what to do. To be honest, now that I don’t have any training responsibilities anymore, I could just say “not my problem” and move on. However, it still greatly bothers me, because I know if this person doesn’t work if, it will impact many of my coworkers’ jobs. Other employees have also questioned why Old Coworker is training New Coworker, and why Old Coworker is even still here at all at this point. Any advice?

    1. Eillah*

      Is asking her directly an option? Saying “hey, she’s supposed to be trained by corporate, no one has informed us that you will be doing this.”

      1. valentine*

        You’re free. Let it be. You’re bailing the ocean and can stop at any time. It was, is, and will be a management problem. Even if they walk the allegedly fired coworker out, new things will keep cropping up, due to lack of supervision, including Bob (don’t know if husband Bob is the same as previous), who’s refused to manage the nightmare person properly.

    2. GrumbleBunny*

      Yeah, I would definitely intervene here. This is weird.
      Can you reach out to the new hire’s grand-b0ss and express your concern?

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Unfortunately, there is no grandboss. We’re a super small office and the branch manager is the head honcho, so to speak.

      2. Peaches*

        Unfortunately, there is no grandboss. We’re a super small office and the branch manager is the head honcho, so to speak.

          1. Jadelyn*

            This – talk to the trainer directly and let her know that the training she assigned is being preempted by unofficial “training” from the person who was let go from that position.

            1. Mama Bear*

              Since the boss will be back on Monday, I’d write an email and say, “Just so you are aware, Old Coworker appears to be training New Coworker. I was under the impression that Old Coworker would no longer be working here, so can you please clarify the situation?” I’d put it in terms of “who do I task/go to in order to perform my job?” You might even dig up any email that boss sent referencing the new person’s training by trainers and reply to that.

    3. Jam Tomorrow*

      Tell new coworker to stop paying any attention and tell old coworker to knock it off.

      1. Peaches*

        My fear is that Old Coworker will insist that the Branch Manager told her to train New Coworker, since she knows I have no way to verify with him being out on vacation. From what I’ve seen from her, I wouldn’t put it past her (and would almost expect it, unfortunately.)

        1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          How long is Branch Manager out for? Could it be that a week’s damage is not great, but managable, but if it’s 2-3 weeks it’s worth going to Corporate HQ?

          1. Jan Levinson*

            He will be back on Monday – new coworker just started Wednesday. It probably won’t damage her knowledge base beyond repair (although it wouldn’t be great), but I’m more concerned about old coworker damaging new coworker’s view of the company.

              1. Busy*

                Hehe this makes me laugh.

                Anyway, just calmly wait until Monday or Tuesday. Say to the boss that you just wanted to make sure what you have been seeing is correct, because you have heard conflicting statements about it. Then let him clarify. Some of this is true concern, and some of it is (rightly) BEC territory. So not to focus on your BEC tendencies towards this (nightmare) coworker, just set it up as you just wanted to make sure and loop him in.

                1. tangerineRose*

                  I don’t think this is BEC territory. The leaving co-worker seems to have made just about every mistake possible, and I wouldn’t want that person training the new person either.

                1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                  Sounds like the candles are being burnt at both ends. Here’s hoping New Co-worker survives and thrives after the departure of Old Cow-orker (hyphenation intentional)!

            2. Jadelyn*

              3 days shouldn’t be too bad, when balanced against new coworker’s experiences with the company going forward from that. And who knows, new coworker may already be wary of old coworker’s whispered stories – I know I would be, if I started somewhere new and a single person was making such a point of *whispering* complaints to me.

              I actually had an experience once where my team had a toxic coworker we were stuck with. We hired another person who was working very closely with Ms Toxic, as in they had a shared office separate from the rest of us. About a month in, the new person came to me and one other member of the team and told us all the awful things Ms Toxic was saying about us, and actually said something along the lines of “I was avoiding you guys at first because of everything she’d said, but the more I worked with everyone the more I realized I wasn’t actually seeing any signs of the horrible stuff she was claiming about you guys, so I realized it had to be BS and wanted you to know what was being said about you.”

              So even if old coworker skews new coworker’s perceptions in these first few days, with time new coworker will probably realize that they’re not actually seeing evidence of the claims old coworker was making, and come to a similar conclusion.

              1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

                Agreed. When I first joined CompanyInc, I had a person who was training me say some really weird stuff about the software we were using and being trained on – a bespoke in-house developed/maintained CRM. It was so *hard* to understand and make work, and the trainer didn’t help that she would also complain about whether things were my fault or the system that I was routinely *crying* in the cubicles for the first six weeks. Fast forward six years and that trainer became someone I am worked with to implemenet the replacement sofware.
                Yes, the first six weeks have stuck with me, but the impression I got of the company as a whole was very different – otherwise Iwouldn/t have stuck it out

                1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

                  I also ended up with some mildly amusing stories from that initial training period – nowhere near as cool, or as funny (in retrospect this will be) as “OMG – The woman who was intially training me had actually been FIRED but refused to leave for three days!”

                2. Adlib*

                  As someone who formerly managed a CRM, “bespoke in-house developed/maintained” makes me twitch. Glad you got another solution!

            3. Amethystmoon*

              Well, it depends. If Old Co-worker is anything like my Old Co-worker, I’d seriously be concerned with what knowledge is being passed down, as my Old Co-worker would get confused about the easiest of tasks quite frequently.

    4. animaniactoo*

      So, to clarify, potentially OC may have actually been let go and doesn’t realize that and is still showing up? And is training the new hire?

      100% this is worth contacting the branch manager on vacation if for no other reason than that somebody needs to advise the new hire that she should not be accepting training exercises from OC.

      1. animaniactoo*

        That is – somebody whose authority the new hire will recognize needs to advise her of that. A good suggestion above to also reach out to grandboss if boss is unavailable on his vacation.

      2. Peaches*

        No, she definitely knows she has been let go. The branch manager let her know many weeks ago that he would be dismissing her when once we hired someone new. However, I think it’s possible she doesn’t realize that everyone ELSE in the office knows she has been dismissed, and thus wants to continue on like everything is hunky dory.

        I actually just emailed the branch manager for clarification, but I don’t think he’ll get back with me this week. He’s on a cruise and will be returning Monday.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Yeah, but let go could mean “2 weeks after she has started” not “the moment she walks in the door”.

          In the meantime, you might want to pull the new hire aside and say “I could be wrong about this and I haven’t said anything because I’ve been confused about it all week. But I don’t believe that OC is supposed to be training you and you may want to talk to the BM on Monday when he’s back in the office to clarify what your training setup is supposed to be.” and play off OC’s behavior as “I believe she thinks she’s being helpful to you and it’s unfortunate that BM is out on vacation just as you started so there hasn’t been an opportunity to doublecheck it.” The strong implication being that if BM had not been out on vacation, this would have been cleared up swiftly.

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            Best script I’ve seen yet. Direct and avoids triggering a rant from Old Cow-Orker.

              1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                Use it! It’s not original to me either. I’ve spent years crediting it to Dave Barry but when it came up this week, I couldn’t find that particular column online so no proof or provenance yet.

    5. Myrin*

      Oh my, Peaches, she’s just the coworker that keeps on giving, isn’t she?

      And I have to say – I totally, 100% see why this is getting to you, but reading through it the first time, I honestly had to laugh. Not because it’s funny, but because it’s just so bizarre. So she’s just… still there. And doing what she wants. I bet you that when branch manager returns, he’ll have to physically move her out of your office or she’ll just… stay.

      As for what to do – I feel like branch manager is really the only person who can authoritively do anything here. Is there someone who stands in for him when he’s away who can act on his behalf if you were to contact them?
      However, I forget – where are you in terms of seniority? I believe you would’ve been senior to Coworker even if she hadn’t been a newbie, right? If so, I personally might actually talk to her about it, and in a pretty straightforward manner, too – after all, she knows that you know all about her shortcomings. Stop her when she’s beelining for new coworker and ask her what the hell she’s thinking she’s doing? Or, hm. I’m honestly not sure. I’d love for you to go and have a talk with New Hire but I’m not sure how appropriate that would be and what even to say in such a situation. “Please ignore and forget everything Coworker has ever told you, she’s a trainwreck”?

      Also: Where are the corporate trainers? And where is literally everyone else? Surely branch manager didn’t just leave a void when he went on vacation? (And when will he be back anyway?)

      1. Peaches*

        It honestly is so bizarrre…that’s the word I keep coming back to, too!

        Unfortunately, there is not someone who stands in for him while he’s gone. We’re a super small office.

        In terms of seniority, I’m not necessarily senior to her – our roles are just unrelated (different positions with no overlapping responsibilities). However, I was responsible in helping train her, and the branch manager regularly has asked for my feedback on her since she started.

        I’m honestly not sure where the corporate trainers are. Our company is structured a bit odd; there are literally 4-5 trainers at our corporate office responsible to holding training seminars every day of the year for all new employees of all positions, at 32 nationwide branches. I think they are just spread too thin and probably cannot get her scheduled to come in person for a few weeks. Like I mentioned, I have heard that they gave the new coworker 2 weeks’ worth of training material (and then the following week will have her do in-person training).

        As far as my branch manager surely not leaving a void when he went on vacation…I honestly would not be surprised. He is fairly new (about 1 year here) and seems to be way in over his head most of the time. He often forgets meetings, is running later, spacing on something important, etc.

        1. tiasp*

          If you are employed there and she is fired/about to be fired, then I think you can act as if you are the one who has seniority.

    6. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Were you ever *told* that Old Co-Worker (OCW) was going to be dismissed?
      If yes — go to HR or your branch manager’s manager TODAY and confirm if OCW is still allwoed to be in the building.
      If no… at least get Bob to tell his wife that the new employee has been co-opted by someone with a different agenda.

      1. Peaches*

        Yes, everyone in our branch received an email from the branch manager a month ago explicitly stating that old coworker has been let go BUT would be staying on until we hired someone new (which we have now, obviously).

    7. T. Boone Pickens*

      I think you need to be way more direct here as new coworker is essentially getting sabotaged by old coworker. If I found out the person that was ‘training’ me wasn’t supposed to be training me and worse yet, was fired for poor performance I’d be PISSED and it would make me seriously question how screwed up your organization is. Do new coworker a favor, go up them and tell them, “Hey, I’m not sure if anyone has told you but old coworker is on their way out so I’d take anything they told you with a grain of salt.” I personally would include they were being let go due to poor performance because I tend to be blunt and would want the new hire to know there is no reason they should be paying attention to this person. I’d also reach out to the corporate trainer and let them know what’s going on. This needs to get nipped in the bud like yesterday.

      1. Eillah*

        Yeah, this is an occasion where brief directness will pay off tremendously in the long run. I’d be pissed too if I found out I was trained by an incompetent lunatic and no one stepped in.

        1. Jadelyn*

          I mean…I can see why that’s a concern, but I’d also be worried that saying something like that would be viewed by the new person as some kind of weird political shenanigans. If you’re brand new to an organization, you have no frame of reference, so when Person A says “this place sucks” and Person B says “Person A sucks”, who the hell are you supposed to believe? How do you make that decision? I’d be worried it would come off as shit-stirring and at least for myself, it would make me even more wary of the entire place and everyone in it.

          1. Eillah*

            Is there a way to meet in the middle? Something like…. I dunno, “OC was let go due to performance issues, so please wait for your proper corporate training in order to fully understand procedures and expectations” ?

          2. Peaches*

            This is my exact fear! My preference would be to speak to the new coworker (or email her), just to inform her that old coworker was let go for performance issues and to be weary of her training (and offer to have the branch manager clarify as SOON as her returns!), but I don’t want to come across as a pot stirrer.

            1. Gumby*

              I wouldn’t do that. Telling her to use the official training rather than old coworker’s: fine. But “she was let go for performance reasons” is something that shouldn’t be widely shared even if it is widely understood.

              You avoid spreading that around not only for the sake of old coworker’s dignity, but also so new coworker doesn’t get the impression that confidential information is bandied about the office. I would be extremely taken aback to have someone share that type of gossip with me within a week of starting a new job.

    8. Bagpuss*

      I thinkthat you ned to contact whoever is above Branch Manager. Explain the information you were given by BRanch Manger, what you have witnessed and ask if they can resolve it. You may want to flag up that you would have concerns about old employee trianing the new person given her own poor performance.

      If your office culture makes it OK, then contact Branch Manager even though they are on vacation, but if not, go to their manager.

    9. CL Cox*

      Reach out to HR or the Corporate Training manager. Explain that you want to “clarify” what the plan is for New Hire’s first couple of weeks, since Boss is on vacation. Basically, come from a place of confusion, of “I want to make sure she’s not sitting around wasting her time or ours because no one gave her any tasks.” No mention of Old Hire or what you heard secondhand from the trainer, go straight to the source. Depending on what their answer is, you can then respond that Old Hire seems to think she’s training New Hire and you are concerned because of [specific wrong information or process you heard or saw Old Hire pass along]. It needs to be concrete, more than just “I think they’re gossiping” or “New Hire might get the wrong impression,” something like “she’s telling her to do X, the way we do it is Y, so she’s creating more work for herself or one of us when it has to be changed to X.”

      As for why she’s not left yet, they may have decided to give her two weeks notice once the New Hire started? It’s not really your business, so asking them anything about that should get shut down, if your HR is decent.

    10. CatCat*

      What. The. Actual. Hell!

      When Branch Manager is out, who are you supposed to go to if something urgent has come up? I’d go to that person with the following points!

      – Branch Manager told all of us that he fired Old Coworker and that her time at the company would end when New Coworker started.
      – New Coworker has started.
      – Old Coworker is still showing up.
      – Old Coworker claims to be training New Coworker, but it is incredibly bizarre because Old Coworker isn’t supposed to be here because she was fired because of her poor performance.
      – Old Coworker is badmouthing the company to New Coworker.

      Just OMG. I think the problem with saying “not my problem” is that this is sooooo strange that it may become your problem if you don’t speak up.

      1. East Coast Girl*

        I was coming to say ALL of this. I think OP could pretty much copy and paste your bullet points into an email, add in company-specific details, and send to HR or corporate training or someone, anyone(!) with authority to figure out what’s going on.

        If Old Coworker truly has been let go and is coming in of her own accord, she’s trespassing. She shouldn’t be in the office. She shouldn’t be training New Coworker. She shouldn’t have access to files or the network or company email or letterhead.

        I am really glad the OP clarified that they’ve emailed the manager. Even if manager doesn’t see the email until Monday, at least it will be known that OP wasn’t just sitting around not questioning the weirdness of all this.

    11. Not A Manager*

      I think your branch manager is bananapants. He’s the problem way more than Old Coworker.

      He fired this lady effective “sometime but not now,” he sent an all-office email about her personal business to everyone behind her back, maaaaybe she doesn’t know that everyone knows her business or maybe she does, AND he split town without ensuring that Old Coworker was actually fired and not sort-of-under-the-table fired.

      He sounds like a spineless train wreck.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Yeah, hiring someone when he was out under these circumstances was not the best idea. If not planning ahead is a constant problem then that is a concern in and of itself.

        1. UKCoffeeLover*

          What I meant to say was, I totally agree with Not a Manager, your boss has caused this problem.If you have grounds to let someone go aka fire them, you do it and they go. You don’t keep them around as that is really saying that they aren’t that terrible after all.
          And then he goes on holiday! He’s an awful boss!

          I feel so sorry for the new person stuck in the middle of this b*****s muddle! (A good old English phrase!)

    12. Jules the 3rd*

      It’s a week until the branch manager gets back. It’s unlikely OC will be able to do significant damage in that time. I think you can take a low-key approach to this.

      Take a little time to invite new coworker to lunch or something and just be normal / friendly. Don’t talk about old OC, do talk positively about IT / branch manager / anyone else you think OC is maligning. Just give a counter example for the short term. New C got training before OC got to her, corporate will be able to handle any questions. Anything else is going to be Drama, and give New C a worse impression.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      You’ve indicated that your boss is less than ideal.
      This is mostly his problem.
      1) He hired someone and then went on vacation. What is up with that. He could have the person start when he returned from vacation.
      2) Apparently someone is (or several are) assigned to this person to train them? But no one seems to be sure who so OC just jumps in? Or maybe the assigned person (people) do not intervene and let NC wander off with OC.

      3)Of everything here the least concerning is what OC is saying to NC. This all can be handled, such as telling NC, “Well OC was really upset about the website. That is not our job and not our concern. We have an IT department and they are handling it. For us to be overly worried about the website is really not an appropriate thing for us to get involved in.”

      I’d like to encourage you to allow others in this story to have their own learning experiences. If you fill in the boss’ gaps on this one you could set a precedent that leaves you feeling compelled to keep fixing his slip-ups.
      This is a slippery slope and this story can get worse.

      It’s almost 7 pm here, so I assume your workday is over and this whole thing will be addressed or not on Monday. However, I think that one thing I would have done is asked Bob if his wife is aware of what is going on here. To me, the problem with OC is a symptom of the actual problem which is, at best, a “reluctant boss”.

    14. Peaches*

      UPDATE (even though I’m not sure if anyone will see this!)

      The branch manager (new and old coworker’s boss) emailed me back early this morning (for those of you that didn’t see before, I emailed him Friday voicing my concerns about Old Coworker training New Coworker, clarifying whether this was his plan, etc.)

      He told me that he appreciated me voicing my concerns, and that he “had told New Coworker to take everything Old Coworker says with a grain of salt.” He also said Old Coworker is only still here to get New Coworker up to speed on any unfinished projects she’s working on, and that Wednesday will be her last day. Personally, I think this is a terrible idea. I have an inkling Old Coworker will be giving New Coworker at least some misinformation training wise. Additionally, we have trainers at corporate that ARE able to catch New Coworker up to speed on unfinished projects (even if they haven’t been working on these projects firsthand like Old Coworker, I know that they would be able to jump in and better train New Coworker than Old Coworker would!) He also reiterated that New Coworker will be going to corporate next week for extensive training.

      I agree with all of you that questioned why New Coworker would start while the Branch Manager was on vacation. Based on everything that happened with Old Coworker, Branch Manager definitely needed to provided some oversight in the office with New Coworker/Old Coworker interacting, yet he wasn’t even in the same country last week. I’m still of the opinion that there shouldn’t have been any overlap between Old Coworker and New Coworker in this role.

  4. AnonSister*

    In need of suggestions, please. A relative is the ED of an established community music school (not-for-profit). He’s thrilled the board approved funding to create a new position for a Development Manager, but he isn’t getting as many applicants as he’d hoped. His next step is to engage a recruiter.

    But I thought it was worth reaching out to the AAM community and its collective expertise. Does anyone know of job boards specifically serving not-for-profits/education/music that he might have missed? Or have other recommendations that might help him reach more applicants?

    Note: I don’t think location is limiting applicants. The school is just outside a major city in the northeastern US and is convenient to commuter rail and buses. I doubt salary is a factor either – at least not yet, since the post states only “commensurate with experience,” along with details outlining a decent benefits package. Nor are they looking for a unicorn; the position requires a Bachelor’s and at least three years experience in non-profit development, and prefers a background in music.

    Appreciate any suggestions, thanks!

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      The two online job boards that come immediately to mind are idealist-dot-org and workforgood-dot-org (previously known as Opportunity Knocks).

    2. Jam Tomorrow*

      I doubt salary is a factor either – at least not yet, since the post states only “commensurate with experience”

      Salary IS a factor, then. He hasn’t posted one.

      1. rando*

        Agree. “commensurate with experience” is not something I, or anyone I know, trusts as a term.

        1. Waterfowl forever*

          When I was applying for development jobs, I almost always skipped those jobs. Commensurate with experience too often means that there is a range and it’s as low as we can get away with. Maybe suggest new ads with a salary range?

        2. WannaAlp*

          …and even if it was, it isn’t going to get any hits when job seekers look for jobs at least salary $XX,000

      2. anoymoooose*

        higheredjobs.com is mostly higher ed but this is adjacent enough for them, they often have nonprofits/ museum type jobs too

        1. BethDH*

          Seconding higheredjobs; I see a lot of similar ones there. If there are local schools that are particularly appealing, see if they have alumni job boards. Some departments even have their own. H-Net is technically open to non-academic roles, especially non-profits, though they do charge to post.

          I’m also increasingly seeing job postings circulated informally through social media. I don’t know about music/non-profit development, but in my field there are job search groups on Facebook (you can send a message to the group manager even if you’re not a member). If he or the org are on twitter, posting it there and tagging a few key people would also get an audience that might not be actively checking job boards.

      4. Kimmy Schmidt*

        Agreed. And if this is a major city with a high cost of living, potential applicants may wonder if they’ll be able to afford necessities.

        1. Anon Librarian*

          And that their salary won’t be based on anything that shouldn’t be a factor. Unfortunately, discriminatory pay gaps are still a huge problem. If you set a salary (or range that is clearly tied to experience levels) before you’ve gotten any applications, it helps to prevent that.

      5. Lucette Kensack*

        Yep. There’s a growing movement in the nonprofit sector to insist that job postings include salary. Some job boards won’t accept posts without salaries, and lots of folks won’t share a post without a salary to their network (including me).

        That being said, for a junior-level job the best places to post are likely local boards. Does his state (or city, if it’s big enough) have a nonprofit association?

        For development jobs in general: Chronicle of Philanthropy, Council on Foundations, Idealist.

      6. AnotherAlison*

        +1 more.

        I don’t see what is so difficult about saying this is a 5-10 year experience role, and the salary range is X-Y, commensurate with experience.

        Separately, my friend works in this space. She’s an ED for a state music ed association. Working the network seems to be how she fills her roles, has gotten her jobs, & how other positions in this space get filled.

        1. Clever Name*

          Exactly. I’m assuming the organization has SOME idea of what they are hoping to pay someone, even if it’s a large range. As in, they wouldn’t dream of paying minimum wage for a professional with 5 years of experience, right? And conversely they aren’t planning on hiring someone whose salary requirements is $1M+ either.

      7. Crystal*

        I work in music based NP development, I interpret that as “they don’t have much money and won’t be paying very much.”

        1. Half-Caf Latte*

          I work in a totally different field and I also interpret that as “they don’t have much money and won’t be paying very much.”

    3. Tootie from the Facts of Life*

      Most states have a center for non-profit management and they usually have job boards. They also have HR consulting to make sure that the job description is accurate and reads well. Many times the job description is onerous, labor-intensive, and doesn’t accurately reflect the organization. Perhaps ask other Dev Directors in the area to give it read over.

      The number of applicants shouldn’t be a concern – it should be the quality of applicants. Of those he has, do they at least meet the minimum qualifications? Too many jam choices usually mean no choices are made and/or the decision making process takes too long and you lose a good candidate because you want to see more options.

      It’s possible that someone in the for-profit business development world is interested in moving to non-profit. How about Chambers of Commerce, musical professional organizations? That’s where we found our new Dev Director – in the finance sector.

      A new DD position, one that the non-profit never had before isn’t ready for the cost of a recruiter. This is the time where the ED and Board have the opportunity to pound the pavement, ask their peers, consult with other Ex Directors, for possible candidates. A recruiter would be appropriate for a well-established organization seeking a candidate for a high 5 or 6 figure salary.

    5. KnowsNothing*

      There are various colleges around the country which offer graduate degrees in non-profit management, etc. I can think of two large schools in Texas with very active job placement offices within these programs. It might be helpful to reach out to one of them!

    6. BRR*

      Check for a local chapter of the association for fundraising professionals (afp). I hate to be an echo but development manager salaries can vary widely so posting a range will likely attract more candidates assuming the salary is good. I wouldn’t hire a recruiter for a position like this.

    7. Kimmybear*

      Check the relevant professional association job boards…NAfME, Center for Non-Profit Advancement, etc.

    8. Brett*

      I asked my spouse who has had a lot of involvement with community music non-profits (she’s assistant director at one, sits on the board for another, and I am not even sure how many others she has worked with as a sub, etc).

      She said these types of positions are typically advertised on facebook through music teacher groups. You might think this is strange because you are not seeking a music teacher, but the word of mouth through these groups creates a reference network that should reach many people with the type of experience you are looking for.

    12. ManageHer*

      Chronicle of Philanthropy has a job board.

      But honestly I’m job searching right now in an adjacent field and LinkedIn has been my go-to. At least in the DC Metro, I’m seeing a lot of non-profit, school, and association roles there.

    13. EV*

      Work for Good is a great resource to post non profit jobs as well as Chronicle of Philanthropy

    14. Observer*

      There are some facebook groups as well. One will not allow any ads that don’t have salary.

      NonProfit Happy Hour (NPHH) is one where she might want to post.

    16. AliV*

      Is he being realistic about the duties? If this is a new position it sounds like this might be the first time they’ve had a development person. Being a one-person development shop is tough, and an unrealistic wish list might be scaring off candidates.

      1. AnonSister*

        AliV, this was my initial thought, but you’ve articulated more clearly. Thanks – will definitely pass it on along with the many good suggestions from others.

    18. Cookie Monster*

      Berklee (college of music) has a job board that is strictly for current students and alumni which may help find someone-It sounds like he may not exclusively be looking for a musician as the Development Manager, but certainly there are a lot of Berklee folks that work in all sorts of music business-y areas that could qualify for something like that.

    19. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      Two suggestions, but neither is exactly what you asked for. However. I have an M.F.A. in Performing Arts Management from a school in the Northeast. We are taught fundraising. Your relative could try reaching out to those programs to see if they have alums who would be right for the position. Secondly, I believe the country singer Sara Evans has a foundation called ME.org (meaning “Music Education”) which provides funding and support to music programs and schools. It might be a source of funding.

    20. CB*

      Your local chapter of the Association of Fundraising Professionals (AFP) likely has a job board that the position could be posted to. Our chapter charges a small fee for x amount of time on their site. Posted positions are also included on their monthly e-newsletter to the hundreds of current chapter members.

      Our local United Way also has a free online job board for nonprofits. I know this varies across cities and counties, but it’s worth a shot!

  5. Sunflower*

    I requested a sick day for a minor surgery and my new boss told me I can’t use sick leave in advance so I need to use PTO. Our employee handbook doesn’t explicitly state anything about doctors appointments, however, I’m in NYC and the law says you can use paid sick leave for preventive care appointments. I also checked with my friend in HR who verified I’m correct.

    My boss can be a little hardheaded so I’m planning to say that I thought HR told me during orientation that we can use sick days in advance but in the case she comes back and says that’s not correct, what do I do? She is flexible about WFH and some other stuff so I don’t want to start a battle over this and throw the law out but it’s the law and it’s my right!

    1. Teapot Librarian*

      That’s bizarre. You use sick days for medical reasons, whether they are “I woke up vomiting” (please don’t actually tell your boss that) or “I am having major surgery three weeks from now and need four weeks to recover.”

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Your boss is…*deep breath* wrong AF. I stopped the rudeness that is boiling up.

      You need to have HR dial in to him and explain it. Don’t take this on yourself, they need to do their GD jobs.

    3. Ask a Manager* Post author

      You can say, “Now I’m confused about this because I was sure HR had said that in orientation and I’d read it’s even the law in NYC. I’m going to double check with them and I’ll let you know what they say.”

    7. LGC*

      Not in NYC, but that sounds…weird if that is true. Across the river in NJ, you’re totally allowed to use sick leave for any sort of medical thing, including proactive and care of a family member. New Jersey’s labor laws are generally less progressive than NYC, if I remember correctly, so I’d be surprised if they forced you to not use sick leave proactively.

      So I think your boss is wrong – especially since she’s new and might not have worked in NYC before their sick leave laws came into effect.

      The other possibility I can think of is that your PTO system is bad and only allows you to file sick time after the fact. In that case, just file as soon as you’re able after the surgery.

      1. Professional Merchandiser*

        What she is saying is she can’t schedule sick leave IN ADVANCE, not that she can’t use sick leave for this surgery. My company has the same policy. I tried to schedule a sick day to have a root canal done and my (former) boss refused it because it was requested ahead of time. I just waited and sent my request in the night before, and was granted with no problem. Luckily, my new boss is more reasonable and she will approve things like that ahead of time.

        1. Professional Merchandiser*

          Forgot to clarify: we make our requests on-line, not talking to the boss. If you have to talk to your boss directly, that might be different.

    8. Jadelyn*

      …so generally speaking, I’m with the majority on this one. Get your HR involved and have them clear it up.

      I will add one caveat, however, that many of the paid sick leave laws do allow employers to have a grace period for new employees before they can actually use the sick leave they’re accruing. So if you’re brand new at the company, it might not be that your boss is denying you the use of sick time for preventative care appointments in general, just that you’re still in your probationary period or whatever and so you can’t use your sick time at all yet. From NYC’s sick leave law:

      “an employee shall be entitled to begin using safe/sick time on
      the one hundred twentieth calendar day following commencement of his or her employment or on
      the one hundred twentieth calendar day following the effective date of this local law, whichever is
      later. After the one hundred twentieth calendar day of employment or after the one hundred
      twentieth calendar day following the effective date of this local law, whichever is later, such
      employee may use safe/sick time as it is accrued.”

      From the phrasing, it sounds like this may be what your boss meant. But again, definitely get your HR involved.

      1. TootsNYC*

        any company who takes advantage of that is just stupid–like, do you WANT someone coming to work with a raging toothache? (Happened to my niece–she started a new job and cannot miss a single day in her 90-day probation period, so she went to work in terrific pain because she couldn’t go get the tooth pulled. I’m sure she was very effective–insert eyeroll here >> .)

        Or strep, pinkeye, mono?

          1. Kat in VA*

            If someone came into work with a raging case of C. difficile (assuming they were even mobile), I would be beyond righteously enraged.

        2. Jadelyn*

          Oh, I agree – I think those waiting periods are dumb as heck. My employer includes in our sick leave policy that people can even take a certain amount of it as an advance, if they get sick within their first couple months before they’ve had time to accrue enough time to use, for that exact reason. If you’re sick, don’t come in and infect the rest of us just because you’re new. “Borrow” from your future PTO bank and stay home.

          Life happens sometimes – even when it’s not convenient, like during your first couple months at a new job. There’s nothing you can really do about that, and companies that refuse to allow their employees to be humans with messy normal lives are shooting themselves in the foot.

    9. OperaArt*

      I’m confused. When you say “in advance” does that mean you do not yet have the sick leave available, and plan to request an advance on it?

      1. swusposp*

        I think “in advance” means, in the boss’ opinion, sick leave can only be used when you’re blindsided by sickness vs. any medical-related plans or appts you have.

      2. MoopySwarpet*

        Yes, this is what I would want clarified as well. If you don’t have sick leave available and want to use it “in advance” then he could be correct and not contrary to the law. If he means you can’t schedule sick leave in advance, he’s wrong.

    10. Not another squirrel*

      You are not taking the sick day for the surgery. You are taking the sick day for the bleeding/recovery from anesthesia/surgery.

    11. DAMitsDevon*

      Definitely do what others have said and loop in HR. Also, I work and live in NYC and have been able to use sick leave in advance for doctors appointments. And my boss has used sick leave when got surgery on his ankle last year.

  6. Monivan*

    How do I stop feeling guilty/worried about leaving my job? (Or should I be?) I know this has been covered on here before, but I’m worried about burning a bridge.

    I’ve been in this job almost 2 and a half years, and it’s my second job out of college. The past 6 months, the company has been downsizing and cutting costs – and a lot of the work that others were doing has been falling to me, and my workload is about to increase even more when my coworker is laid off next month. Not only will I have practically twice as much work on my plate, the work I’m taking on is (to me) tedious, dull, and just not the type of I want to do.

    If I leave, all this work plus what I’m already doing will fall to someone else, because now they barely have enough people to do everything. I’m more concerned that they’ll be upset with me for leaving them hanging if I leave within the next few months. I think they will probably realize that I am trying to escape doing this coworker’s job and I feel like it’ll make me look like I’m not dedicated

    1. londonedit*

      Two and a half years is more than a reasonable amount of time to spend at your second post-college job – you’ve already proved that you’re dedicated! Plus, your work has changed, it isn’t what you want to do, and you can see the writing on the wall with all the lay-offs that have already happened. No reasonable person would blame you for wanting to cut your losses before you become the next person in the firing line.

      I think it’s totally normal to feel guilty about ‘dropping people in it’ when you leave a job, but companies have to be responsible for their own staffing, and they have to understand that people will leave. Especially if things clearly aren’t going well! You have to do what’s best for you and for your own career – you can’t sit around in a job you don’t like, at a company that really doesn’t seem stable, just because you’d feel bad about someone else having to do the work you’re leaving behind.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s normal to feel this way. We become “loyal” in these ways to jobs, we spend a lot of time there after all. You know the people somewhat personally at that stage, so you care about them and don’t want them to be upset, etc.

      However all you owe anyone is respect and professionalism. So you give notice and you work with them throughout that period whatever way they ask you to. Stay kind and helpful until the end but in the end, it’s a business relationship. If they take it personally and don’t get what business relationships look like, that’s on their shoulders, not yours.

      It’s a mind game on your side. You have to keep reminding yourself you’re doing nothing wrong. That you have to think of #1, you. Take care of yourself, nobody else will put you first in this life except yourself. Especially not a boss or company, they are downsizing. So look at how they cut jobs, why do they get to do that and you don’t get to? At least as an employee you give notice, unlike a company that usually just drops an axe without a 2 weeks heads up that you’re out of a job.

      Really if they’re upset that you “left them hanging”, they’re damaged goods. They don’t get to make this your problem.

      You have no reason to be dedicated to propping someone’s dead weight up.

      1. HappyRetiree*

        I worked for a company that was going through difficulties resulting from both external and internal reasons. I was not really happy with my department management but my workload was growing and I saw my job as pretty secure. A reorganization was announced and the person in charge of itguaranteed to me in front of others that I would not be laid off but transitioned to a new related role for which I was was qualified. Wrong! There was a kluster-f** involving hiring into the new role and I found myself on the street.

        My takeaway was that my job hunt should have started when the difficulties became apparent. I thought that by being loyal to them , they would be good to me. Instead , because I was a mature woman, being laid off effectively ended my career.

        OP, don’t let what you think is loyalty blind you to the realities. Getting out on your own terms is way more important that what you surmise they will think about you.

    3. animaniactoo*

      It is about 900x more likely that they are going to be upset with your company for not hiring somebody – enough somebodies – to cover your job when you leave.

      Exactly the way you are annoyed with your company now as they are laying people off.

      If they’re annoyed with you for jumping ship, that’s a mindset that you can’t and shouldn’t attempt to cater to or worry about as you paddle off on your escape raft. The most I would do is verbally express sorrow to some of your co-workers that the company’s layoffs/attitudes about reasonable workloads mean that they will probably end up with what’s on your plate. Just to nudge them in the direction of looking at the company if they were inclined to look at you first. But that’s the limit of it.

    4. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      If they can’t afford to hire people to do the work that they have, they are not a sustainable business. You are an employee, not a guardian angel. Stop thinking of things happening to that business as your fault. “The work will fall to someone else if I leave.” Yes, yes it will. That’s how it works. You can’t change it and you sure as hell can’t fix a failing company by doing five jobs. If they are more upset at you for leaving then they are upset that the company is failing, they got issues. You are not the lynch pin. Seriously. Start looking now.

    5. Dust Bunny*

      Nooooooot your problem.

      You do now owe it to the job to treat it better than it treats you. They’ve demonstrated that they’re apparently financially dysfunctional and definitely functionally dysfunctional. (Side note: Are you even sure your own job there is secure?)

      But you only have one life to live and it will be better if you’re not massively overworked.

    6. Monivan*

      I do think my job is secure, they are profitable but just trying to cut costs. They are automating a lot of tasks but still need people to do certain manual tasks. While my job does normally entail this kind of work, I know I can find something better and that I will personally prefer doing.

      1. MicrobioChic*

        One of my jobs tried to do something similar, cutting costs by cutting hours for the folks in the lab. Which was awful, because we were all hired as 40hr a week employees.

        They ended up losing their best people because everyone saw the writing on the wall and started looking for other jobs. No one was annoyed at the people who left first, we were annoyed at the company for causing issues for itself and the rest of us by being so short sighted.

        In this sort of situation, it’s not you causing the issue, it’s your employer. Even if you did like the new work that was coming in, you didn’t sign up to do two peoples jobs for the wage of one person. Anyone who blames you for leaving is being unreasonable, and I suspect none of your coworkers will blame you.

      2. Hey Karma, Over here.*

        “they are profitable but just trying to cut costs”
        Good for them. But there are cost cutting measures that don’t involve the multi-hat plan. Typically they eliminate people AFTER the automation takes over and is fully functional, not while it’s still in process.

      3. Observer*

        Well, the way they are cutting costs is not responsible. Unless you were twiddling your thumbs you do not appropriately cut costs by doubling someone’s workload. You really don’t owe them any “dedication”.

        1. CubeKitteh*

          I’m in a mass layoff for a company that is posting profits so “cutting costs” by shifting work around while we’re gradually let go is “business as usual” right now. As to feeling guilty, don’t. People leave jobs all the time. It’s part of doing business. Don’t feel guilty about doing what’s right for you. Employment is a two-way street. Good luck!

    7. Seeking Second Childhood*

      Yes it’s hard. It might help to write out answers to the basic interview question “Why are you leaving your previous job?” I’ll point out that you’re being smart — the company is in financial distress as demonstrated by layoffs and extreme cost-cutting. Your workload is about to double, and half of it is work that you wouldn’t have signed on to do if offered that job originally.
      Alison’s said many times it’s a reality of business that people move on. If you leave they will prioritize what really must be done, drop some business, and/or hire a new person. Or not lay off someone else. Or hire back someone who was previously laid off.

    8. Errol*

      When companies aren’t doing well, there isn’t usually bad blood when people are looking out for themselves instead of the company.

      They are laying people off and downsizing, the writing is on the wall and you would be foolish to pretend that if it comes down to them or you, they’ll pick you. Your employer looks out for them, and you need to look out for you. If they get upset that you found something more secure, that isn’t a normal reaction and not your problem. Business isn’t personal.

      I’m actually going through something similar here, my contract is coming up but we have someone on medical leave and the lady on mat leave (whom my contract is to replace) has decided now that year end is over she’s going back on leave until end of September but I’ve already started my job hunt seriously on the verbal confirmation she gave me that she’d be back at the end of July and I will have no more job. This means I’m leaving this company ‘high and dry’ as it’s just me running everything here these days. I was talking to my shop manager about this being a little awkward feeling and he goes “We all need to be looking out for number one.” He’s 100% correct. We aren’t ‘screwing anyone’ or ‘leaving them high and dry’, we’re doing exactly what a business would do.

      **I currently work for a very very small company

    9. Nicki Name*

      Monivan, here’s something that helped me come to terms with escaping a job where I desperately needed to leave but felt guilty about abandoning my co-workers:

      https://www.issendai.com/psychology/sick-systems.html

      In short… it’s part of an unhealthy dynamic that you feel loyal to a job that’s crushing you. You deserve to leave if it’s making unreasonable demands. Your employer set up this situation, and it’s THEIR fault if the people you leave behind are burdened with too much work.

    10. Jill March*

      My department lost three employees within a month. It was really just coincidence; there wasn’t anything toxic about the place or position. It was stressful, but no one was upset at any of the people that left. Life happens and people change jobs. Reasonable people and workplaces understand that. If leaving burns a bridge, then you are dealing with unreasonable people who would resent you no matter when you left. Do what’s best for you. Even the best companies aren’t going to prioritize your needs better than you can.

    11. Jadelyn*

      Keep reminding yourself that the feeling isn’t mutual. If your job was considered expendable in their push to cut costs, you’d be out the door already. They’re looking out for themselves. You have every right to do the same. If they get mad at you for it, that’s a sign that they’re toxic and dysfunctional and it’s actually *more* evidence that you need to Get Out Now.

    12. Mama Bear*

      Years ago I was a rat on a sinking ship. We went from an office of 30 to 5 after losing a major contract. At one point a coworker wondered if she should start looking for a new job and I said something like she should have already been looking for a new job. Read the tea leaves and do not be afraid to jump ship if you need to. Sometimes you need to be selfish and recognize that business is business. If I saw a bunch of layoffs looming, I’d be looking for a more stable job with the kind of work I liked better. It’s a job, not a prison sentence.

    13. TootsNYC*

      If the people involved have any brains at all, they’ll totally understand why you’re leaving–the company is not doing well, and your workload is increasing.

      Most HR departments will only note in your file whether you gave notice and were on good terms when you left.

      The nuance of “oh, she’s not dedicated and doesn’t want to work hard” is not going to show up from HR, and it shouldn’t show up from anyone sensible that you actually work with.

      And 2.5 years is a reasonable time to leave.

    14. MissDisplaced*

      Really, Monivan their lack of employees to do the work due to downsizing is not your concern!
      It’s not personal, it’s business. Rinse and repeat.

      Yes, the person left might get a little upset, but that is also not your concern. They can also leave if they so feel they need to. All you can do is give a reasonable notice, and tidy up/hand off the work in a professional manner when you leave. That’s it!

    15. Not another squirrel*

      Your leaving is not a reflection on your dedication to the company. You are trading your time/expertise to the company for money/opportunities. They are offering you the ‘opportunity’ to be overworked (doubling your workload), and stagnant (tedious, dull work).
      You did not/do no have to agree to this trade. Just like the company would cut you loose in a heartbeat if it were in their best interest, you have to ask what is your best interest. Do not worry about advocating for what is best for the company, they can do that themselves. The company staffs for the company’s benefit, not yours and they will continue to do so.

    16. BethDH*

      I think it’s okay to feel guilty, as long as that doesn’t stop you from leaving!

      Given the situation, your company/management are the ones who should feel guilty. You are not the one preventing them from hiring more people to take on these roles.

      I know what it’s like to feel guilty even when you know you shouldn’t though, and I think you can assuage that a bit by working to minimize the impact on your coworkers. Document anything you can in a way that is helpful to them (for example, make sure there are headings that make it easy for your coworkers to find just what they need). I don’t know what else would be relevant to your position, but thinking that way will also help you feel proactive instead of reactive.

      And then, give them the chance to be happy for you. Most decent coworkers are capable of recognizing a good thing for their colleagues even when it causes them more work and can separate those feelings. Don’t present your move like it’s something to be ashamed of or sad about (and yeah, don’t gloat either, but that doesn’t seem likely for you!)

    17. Observer*

      Who is “they”?

      If it’s your coworker who is going to be stuck with the work, I doubt that they are going to be worrying about your “dedication”, as much as furious at the bosses who think you can shoehorn the work of 3 people into the hours of one person.

      If it’s your bosses, if they actually expect “dedication” from you while they are busy cutting staff, to the point of being upset at you, then you need to get out yesterday and should expect to never get a good reference from them, regardless of when you leave. On the other hand, given how they are going about these cuts, I doubt that they will have the sense to understand WHY you are leaving. And might quite happy – one more person leaving and it won’t even affect their unemployment rate. For people like this, it’s a total win.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Great point about the bosses, they have not lost a wink of sleep worrying about you, OP and your workload.

    18. AppleStan*

      We have an admin asst who refused to leave even though her doctor told her you need to quit this job or it’s going to kill you. She felt too damn guilty because we were down to next to no administrative assistants at all, and she was afraid of leaving us in a bind.

      Fast forward about a year…let’s just say the stress (even with all of the admin positions filled shortly after the warning from her doctor) of the job and of life have caused her to behave in ways that are completely inappropriate, which has been leading to a nose-dive to her professional reputation.

      You are not responsible for what is going to happen at that job when you leave. They are going to go on without you, it is a cost of doing business. They may have some rougher times before it gets better, but I guarantee, they will find a way.

      Please let go of the guilt, and depending upon how you actually handle your separation from that employment, you won’t be burning bridges at all.

    19. Zephy*

      If it made sense for the company to lay you off tomorrow, they’d do it without hesitation.

      If I leave, all this work plus what I’m already doing will fall to someone else, because now they barely have enough people to do everything.

      Do you own this business? No? Then this is not your problem.

      I’m more concerned that they’ll be upset with me for leaving them hanging if I leave within the next few months.

      Your bosses aren’t your friends. To hell with what they think. If you put in your notice and they cry and scream and jump up and down about it, that’s not your fault or your problem. People leave jobs all the time, if your leaving comes at an inconvenient time for the business, that’s not your fault or your problem.

      I think they will probably realize that I am trying to escape doing this coworker’s job and I feel like it’ll make me look like I’m not dedicated

      Dedicated to what, being overworked and underpaid? You entered into a business agreement with them to do a job. If the terms of that job change and you decide it’s not an agreement you’re comfortable with, you’re as well within your rights to leave as they are to let you go. Again, your bosses are not your friends, and to hell with what they think. Monivan’s obligation is to Monivan.

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        Just to tack on to “I’m more concerned that they’ll be upset with me for leaving them hanging if I leave within the next few months.”
        I can promise you, based on the kind of company you are describing, that regardless of when you leave, even if you leave in the most perfect circumstances, with everything in order and shiny new processes, the *second*, the very SECOND something goes wrong – like the printer runs out of toner – it WILL be your fault. Why? Because you were the last person to leave, and that’s often the culture at companies like this. If it can be blamed on someone who no longer works there, it will be.
        Sorry – that’s just the way it goes. Don’t feel guilt – you don’t owe them any. They won’t send any in return.

    20. Not So NewReader*

      ” I think they will probably realize that I am trying to escape doing this coworker’s job and I feel like it’ll make me look like I’m not dedicated.”

      So what. I mean really, so what. People will conjure up what ever excuse they can to get themselves off the hook.
      We can’t stop people from thinking whatever it is they think.
      We can’t stop people from being angry at us for no real reason.
      I think you know that logically.

      I think you also know that no one was too worried about your workload increasing when they left, they left anyway. See, they knew that it was not their fault your workload increased. They did not assign you their work. The bosses did that.

      Try not to use these things you cannot fix to avoid fixing the things you CAN fix. You can be professional at all times. You can successfully switch to a better workplace. Focus on the “can-do” part of this situation.

      As far as not being dedicated, we don’t have to be dedicated to an employer who cannot commit to us. If they wanted you to stay they could have given you more money and possibly a bigger title. That is not what they chose to do.

      The other day I did a short job for someone. They paid me more than I asked for then apologized for not giving me more. (Right, I wish they would not tell me these things. However, I do understand the sentiment. It can be a way of saying “Thank you. I will never have enough money to pay you what this is worth to me.” I felt like I have been really thanked.) This is how it should go, OP. We should not crawl through our day, breaking our backs to carry the workload and pray we have a job tomorrow. This is not a healthy company.

    21. I Ate Your Eclair*

      Oh, don’t worry. When you give notice, they’ll start being such jerks to you that you’ll find all your sense of duty, loyalty, and Eagle Scout spirit blowing away like a box of Kleenex in a convertible going 80mph on Highway 72.

      How do I know this? Because an organization that is driving away people with its dysfunction is an org in denial, and an org in denial always blames and scapegoats the person whom it’s driven away. I was just st one of those. Though I’m a jaded veteran of many jobs, I’m still a bit of an Eagle Scout type and had noble plans to do as much right as my very…quirky coworkers and boss when I gave notice at end of May. Boss called up the headhunter who found me for them a year ago and tried to get a refund. The team lead and coworker gave me the silent treatment; coworker also tried to sabotage transition by lying. In a country where a sendoff lunch/gifts is de rigeur, they demonstrably did nothing to mark my departure. I had to shake my head and laugh, it was so petty and mean-spirited. The joke is that my two immediate successors had bolted the job within days (I kid you not) because of their…quirkiness, and I stayed a full year because, Eagle Scout.
      I’m actually grateful they were such asses, because it made things very, very clear. It also made it quite an achievement that I managed to remain civil and professional during the notice period. Glad I could do it.

  7. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

    Here’s a sad story that at least shows my workplace in a good light. One of our managers (and one of my closest friends) recently succumbed to cancer at the age of just 50. Everyone working here was devastated. She’d been a part of the office for years, had set up many of our current procedures etc, and was the life and soul of the place. The response from the top bosses has been fantastic. Everyone was told they could take all the time they needed if they were struggling and wanted to get away for a few minutes, they arranged for counselling sessions for any staff that wanted them, and generally made sure that everyone was supported.

    The funeral was on Wednesday, and the bosses immediately said that they would place no restrictions on anyone who wanted to go, they wouldn’t insist on minimum staffing levels, they would manage with a skeleton staff. Many of us came in on the morning of the funeral all wearing purple (her favourite colour) – the office was a sea of purple.

    A horrible situation was made slightly better by the caring actions of our bosses. Just shows what a caring employer can do.

    1. ContentWrangler*

      Sorry for you and your coworkers’ loss. I’m glad you all have caring bosses to support you all during this.

    2. R*

      I’m so sorry for your loss, and I’m so glad for you that your bosses were empathetic. The idea of a sea of purple in her honor made me well up. She must have been an amazing person and clearly had a huge impact. Words are not enough!

      1. Zaphod Beeblebrox*

        It’s been so quick as well – she was diagnosed at the beginning of May. That’s just made it more of a shock.

        1. R*

          Oh my goodness. That certainly is a short time frame. I’m so sorry. I hope you are taking good care of yourself.

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’m sorry for your loss. I know how hard it was on me when my former manager died last year, and I wasn’t even still in his department, let alone personally close to him.
      If you have the kind of relationship with anyone in upper management that would let you suggest something, one thing that my company did right was to convert that man’s office into a small conference room. No one has been moved into it to be a constant reminder. The new head of his department was given a different office & furniture.
      Again, my sympathies.

    5. Mimmy*

      I am so sorry for the loss of your coworker. The image of all of you in a “sea of purple” gave me chills (I too love purple). Your workplace is a shining example of how to honor a coworker’s passing and how to support the rest of the employees.

    6. Minocho*

      We lost a beloved coworker a few months ago to a very sudden heart attack. He had just celebrated his 30th year with the company.

      We changed the name of one of our conference rooms to his name, and dedicated it to him (with a plaque and everything) last week. His wife and children were invited to the ceremony, and honored us with their presence.

      I’m so sorry for your loss, but you are absolutely right, just a little bit of consideration can make such a difference!

    7. DCGirl*

      That makes such a difference. I worked for a company where most people took public transportation to work and didn’t have their cars during the day. When a long-time employee died suddenly from an aneurysm, the company did the same thing in terms of letting anyone who wanted to go to the funeral and chartered buses to take people too and from the office. Gestures like that make such a difference to employees.

      I’m very sorry for your loss.

    8. Mama Bear*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. We had a similar situation years ago with someone who celebrated a company milestone on Friday and passed away Sunday. It was very shocking. The company response was similar to yours and it went a long way toward healing and employee loyalty. I’m glad your company is being so supportive. That’s the way it should be.

    10. EngineerMom*

      This reminded me of one of my mom’s favorite poems, Warning by Jenny Joseph:

      When I am an old woman I shall wear purple
      With a red hat which doesn’t go, and doesn’t suit me.
      And I shall spend my pension on brandy and summer gloves
      And satin sandals, and say we’ve no money for butter.
      I shall sit down on the pavement when I’m tired
      And gobble up samples in shops and press alarm bells
      And run my stick along the public railings
      And make up for the sobriety of my youth.
      I shall go out in my slippers in the rain
      And pick flowers in other people’s gardens
      And learn to spit.

      You can wear terrible shirts and grow more fat
      And eat three pounds of sausages at a go
      Or only bread and pickle for a week
      And hoard pens and pencils and beermats and things in boxes.

      But now we must have clothes that keep us dry
      And pay our rent and not swear in the street
      And set a good example for the children.
      We must have friends to dinner and read the papers.

      But maybe I ought to practise a little now?
      So people who know me are not too shocked and surprised
      When suddenly I am old, and start to wear purple.

    13. Not So NewReader*

      Okay, the sea of purple got me.

      OP, I am sorry for your loss. I am very pleased to see that your company is exemplary in its response to your (all of you) loss. And I am pleased to see the unity with your cohorts in supporting each other.
      Life can be harsh, but people don’t have to be harsh to each other. Here’s proof.

  8. Wearing Many Hats*

    Any suggestions for balancing tasks and strategic planning as a department of one? I’m HR, Accounts Payable, IT, and lots of other little things at my office and have a bad habit of getting bogged down in minutia when I need to think holistically about culture and employee development. Thanks!

    1. Jam Tomorrow*

      Look up the Eisenhower matrix – it can be really useful for helping you prioritise.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I have the main things scheduled out. AP is done on Fridays. HR is spread out because there’s tasks to deal with but the daily stuff I do in the mornings first thing. Updates to computers, every Friday night or every Monday morning, you know?

      This has been my life for almost twenty years. Have you been doing it very long? Sometimes it’s muscle memory and check-lists in the end!

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        I’ve been at this for a few years now, but ran retail stores for 10 years prior. I guess I’m just used being reactive to constant chaos! I schedule time in my calendar for my usual tasks–I think I need to put some time in there for strategic planning as well. Thank you!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s hard to go from Retail life to Office life, which is what it sounds like you’re doing. This unfortunately is why I never hire people with only retail background but that’s not to say you cannot get this under control and live in a less chaotic state!

          You should also get a notebook or if you take notes on a cellphone notepad, whatever it may be. So when someone stops by and asks you for something right then, if you seriously are in the middle of something, you can “note it” and get to it when your schedule allows it.

          So if you’re doing bills and someone comes in and says “I’m running out of unicorns, can you order some more?”

          You just take a note and say “Yes I can, it’s on my to-do list.” and go back to paying bills.

          Unless something is On Fire, they don’t need you right then and a note and a “I’ll circle back with you in about 20 minutes, okay?” should be fine. Keep time open for “office hours” and tasks that come up whenever possible. Some days the phone explodes and there’s 97 people needing me to revise invoices for them and I’m able to then reshuffle the work around so that the Right Now, Customers Need This is taken care of.

          It’s not priority unless it is immediately effecting someone’s ability to do their job. And even then, some people can sit and wait and shuffle their own work around in order to take care of what’s most important. Which is going to be Government Deadlines, payment deadlines [because don’t piss off your vendors, they will not be kind to you when you need a favor later] and HR deadlines. Otherwise, most things on any given day should be pretty easy to shuffle around. Don’t get too stuck in a routine mindset, you have to also keep flexible but yeah, it’s all about reeling it in and really understanding your priorities and the business priorities, people can wait it out for a certain amount of time in most situations.

          1. Wearing Many Hats*

            I think you’re doing yourself a great disservice by not hiring people with deep retail experience! I paid my way through college by working in retail. Entering the job market in a new town during a recession meant I had to take what I could get and lots of people from diverse backgrounds work in retail because that is what is available to them. Store managers oversee the entire hiring and employee development process, keep payroll and that P&L top of mind, and juggle a variety of stakeholders. It may not be relevant in your industry, but I’ve fallen back on my customer service skills on so many occasions to figure things out.

            I’m used to running a team of 30 people so even though it’s been 5 years, perhaps that change takes more time to adjust to than I thought. I’m got so used to delegating and checking in. Thanks for the insight!

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              Sadly it’s due to being burnt like a MOFO trying to bring in that background. I have had to fire too many people who can’t hack it because the skills don’t transfer =( So I don’t take a chance with anyone, they have to cut their teeth on someone else’s office first. I don’t need a lot of experience, just enough to get the basics under their belts.

              We have hired people who went into service/retail at some point for various reasons but it’s not their entire job history. It’s unfair but as a business professional who has to weigh those risks and the overall costs of taking them, it hasn’t shook out to let me mentor someone into being the next jack of all trades, one person departments of their own.

    3. irene adler*

      Limiting the time you plan to spend on each area?
      Or establishing a schedule where you spend only a set amount of time per area:
      example:
      8-9 am HR
      9-9:45 am AP
      break
      10-11 am IT
      Then have the discipline to put aside one task at the end of the time period and start in on the next task.

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        It’s that discipline! Sometimes I want to really *finish* something and I get off track with the next thing that needs attention.

        2. TootsNYC*

          you need a “place” to “put” that “next thing.”

          I had a job that felt out of control once,a nd I got fierce with my inbox, and treated it like a to-do list.

          Someone brought me something to do? I made them write a few words on a piece of paper and put it in the inbox. Then I knew I wouldn’t forget it.

          And every time I was free, I’d check the whole inbox and reprioritize, so I knew that nothing was getting buried.

        3. Gumby*

          You need a system. Any system, but one you stick to. (Well, almost any system. I’m sure there is a terrible one out there that wouldn’t work at all.) I’m personally a fan of Getting Things Done as described in the book of that title by David Allen; though I don’t follow it 100% it did inform the system that I now use.

    4. Miss Ames*

      When I was working in a role that had many facets, I was faced with the reality that there was no way to ever catch up on all the work (there was simply too much coming in all the time). So I decided to arrange my day so that at certain times I would work on certain areas (i.e. first thing in morning, enter order data for 30 mins, then check email, late morning work on topic X, after lunch place new orders). From my view, at least I was hitting all the vital areas for some part of the day, so I wouldn’t get too far behind on any one area.

      1. Wearing Many Hats*

        I am trying to accept that reality. I want to do a good job at *everything* and need to be ok with the fact that sometimes a getting something done in an acceptable manner, and not at the best level I am capable of, is all I can do. Thank you for the reminder!

    5. Coffee Owlccountant*

      Outlook calendar is your friend! Block off particular times a minimum of once a week where you are focusing 100% on more long-term, developmental projects and planning. Then be actually unavailable during those times – in fact, if you are in a position where you can be actually not physically present in your office, that will make it even easier to enact.

      Sometimes it’s really hard to take off all the Firefighter* hats and put on the Strategic Planner one, so what I’ve found works best for me is a very clear change in scenery, and it’s become a solid trigger in my brain that when I am in X location, I am doing X and am not going to be interrupted or distracted by anything that is not X.

      *please continue to fetch the fire extinguisher if there is something that is literally on fire, like the toaster

    6. MoopySwarpet*

      I’m in a similar boat. I love todoist for putting things into project/categories. Everything gets a deadline, but deadlines for long lead projects or “busy work” get deadlines weeks or months out. I then schedule a daily or weekly reoccurring task for each project. If there are pressing things to be done, I do those first, then move on to the less pressing tasks. I’m not worried about rescheduling deadlines for truly non-pressing things, too.

      I also really like using the pomodone app (desktop/web/mobile) for staying focused on the category at hand, but found it too tedious for most individual tasks. You can customize how long you want your work period to be and how often you take breaks, etc. It was helpful to me if I got sidetracked by a phone call or something to be able to glance back at “ok, what was I working on?” because otherwise, I tend to check my email, get sidetracked by something that needs attention, move on to something else leaving the original task half done.

      1. Hamburke*

        I use ToDoIst too! Our whole team has access to it and it keeps us on track and accountable to each other. When we only were using it for ourselves, not as a team, I wasn’t very good at checking things off – I looked at my “today” email and stayed on track but I’d only check things off once a week or every other week. I’d also kick things down the road if I wasn’t confident in them which is ok until it has a real due date. I think you have to be self-accountable to make this work for a team of 1.

  9. Terrible Negotiator*

    I’m a Software Developer working as a Contractor on-site for a client. I am an employee of the contracting company (I get health insurance, PTO, etc. from them) but work as though I am a full-time employee of the client (their equipment, their management, etc.). This is the first time I’ve been a contractor and, having been there a year, my contract is coming up for renewal. I am well regarded for my skills and input on my team and I think I undercut myself a little when I accepted the position. I was new to the market and wasn’t sure what the market would bear so I gave a $10k range and they offered smack in the middle so I figured they weren’t being stingy. Now that I’ve been here a year and been a strong contributor to a very high performing team, I would like to ask for a raise but I’m not quite sure what I can “get away with”. I know I need to negotiate directly with my contracting company and I’d like to go up 10%.

    A few caveats: the company has had a lot of trouble finding experienced programmers with my skillset. The last 3 hires came from out of state and they have said that it’s been a struggle. They have offered some people full time employment after they’ve been here awhile but they seem to wait until the employee is about to leave before doing so. I’ve been told in confidence that I’m on a short list for being made an offer but it hasn’t happened yet so I will continue to function as though it may never happen. I am looking around for a non-contract position but in the meantime, I do like my co-workers and the project so I plan to stick around unless another great opportunity comes along.

    Any input on how to convey that I’m worth the raise? Thanks so much!

    1. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      As someone who has worked both with and for a contracting company, realize that your salary is a percentage of what the contracting company charges.
      So for you to get more, they either take less or go back to the client and negotiate a higher rate. When I got a raise in a contractor type position, the request came from my on site manager. She said, “you deserve more money.” And she was authorized by her company to negotiate. I went up about $2 an hour and the agency’s rate went up a percentage.
      So you want to go in knowing that they are going to put the onus on the client. “You are billed at $XX. We’d have to raise that to the next tier for you to get a raise.” And prepare to discuss how to make that happen.

      1. Terrible Negotiator*

        Thank you for your input! I do realize that it’s going to be passed down to the client. I’ve spoken to my PM about it (we have a very transparent relationship) and she said that I have a lot of leverage in this situation. I just tend to feel weird about asking for a big jump even though I don’t think the final amount is outrageous.

    2. Brett*

      This is the exact setup that my team and company has. Heck, you could be on my team with what you described.
      Talk to the other contractors on your team. This is okay to do. Use this to judge what you are worth. Once you understand that, talk to your contract company. If they have room to ask for more money from your client, they will (and if you are in line with other contractors on your team, that probably will not be an issue). If, instead, the issue is that the company is taking a big percentage of what the client pays, that is a lot tougher and you just have to press the issue with your contract company but use the ammunition of knowing what others make to drive home your point.

      Conversion is normally dependent on there being open positions to convert you to, not on a willingness to convert. If you are on a path to being converted, you will know (in my case, it took about six months from “we will convert you” to it actually happening, and five+ months of that was waiting for an open position requisition to slot me into). Something important to realize, conversion is normally a pay cut for most contractors (at least at our company). The stability, benefits (and bonuses) are what make up for it.

      1. Terrible Negotiator*

        Thanks so much for your reply! I did speak to a co-worker who was interviewing some of these out of staters so he knew what they were asking for (a lot) and he said that I “have room” so clearly asking for more should be ok but he didn’t suggest that I was grossly underpaid so how much is too much to ask for is where I’m stuck.

        As for conversion, I don’t think waiting for openings is really the case where I am. For my particular discipline, they’ve always outsourced to contracting companies so we are the first group with our skillset to be working in-house. I do wonder if they don’t see a long term need for having a team on staff but even my PM said she doesn’t understand why they can’t just hire a bunch of people at once. She confirmed that the offers made were because those people had made mention of leaving for full time gigs and they are starting to realize how hard it is to find people but then… they’ve only picked up like 3 people. Truth is, I’m not sure I want to convert. There’s a lot of politics that I am happy to not be a part of!

    3. CAA*

      Go to your manager at your contract company and say that you know that your contract is coming up for renewal and you’d like to get $xx/hr on the new contract. (I personally would add 15% to what you’re currently making, so that you have room to settle on 10%.) Just see what she says. You may not have to make any kind of argument or justification because contract rates do go up at renewals and this may just be business-as-usual for her and she’ll go ahead and communicate the new rate to the client. She could also give you a different number that’s lower than what you asked for, but hopefully close to the 10% you want.

      Or she could say something like “well, I would need to justify an increase like that, give me some ammunition…” If that happens, then you can point out that you’ve been a key player on a high performing team and you now have a year’s worth of historical knowledge, and you have had very positive feedback from your coworkers and the project manager. After describing how valuable your contributions are, then you can also mention that you know it’s been hard for the client to find people new employees with similar skills, so you don’t think they’d want to lose you.

      At the same time, I’d also go to your manager at the client company and say “you may remember that my contract is coming up for renewal on August 1st. I’d really like to stay on here as a full-time employee rather than a contractor. Is there any way to make that happen in the next few weeks? I’d much rather do that than renew the contract.” The reason for putting this bug in their ear is that some contracts have buyout clauses where the company has to pay the contracting firm a fee if they hire you before the end of the term (kind of like you’d have to pay a landlord if you broke a lease). It’s cleanest for the client company if they will make you an offer and bring you on right at the end of a contract; and depending on the wording, they may not be able or willing to hire you at other times.

      1. Mama Bear*

        This.

        Oftentimes the contractor company is also doing their own negotiations with the client at the end of a contract so now is the time to have that discussion. If they know that to retain you they will need to give you a raise, then they can try to build that into their own fees. I used to work for a company that went through three different renewal/award phases with no increase in my salary and it was definitely a factor for me at the end of the contract. In my case there was no conversion available, so my only way up was out.

      2. Terrible Negotiator*

        Thanks so much CAA! I really like your matter of fact script and will use it! I tend to take things very personally and have a bit of a confidence issue but it’s good to remember that this is just business and to take any emotional weight out of it. This project has actually boosted my professional confidence a lot and I finally feel like I have some leverage to work with.

        As for converting to full time employee. As I mentioned above, I’m not sure I want to at this point. Honestly, the way they’ve handled the hiring of just a few people has left a really bad taste in my mouth. They also have a tendency to tell employees that they would like them to go work on this other project/in this other discipline pretty regularly and I’d rather stay doing what I’m doing on the project that I’m on until I choose to move on to something else.

        Thanks Mama Bear for your reply as well!

        1. Terrible Negotiator*

          I will also say that someone else from my contractor hit her year mark and they literally said nothing to her. She contacted them and asked what was going on and they had unceremoniously renewed her contract. I’ve already told them I wanted to have a discussion and the response seemed a little surprised “oh! You want to revisit the salary?” Um…. yes! This is really where my concern is stemming from. That other contractor found a full time job elsewhere at which point she was offered full time at this client. Too late. That’s when any hiring began.

  10. Art!*

    I’m an artist starting a business selling my own art, and was hoping to work with furniture stores and interior decorators to come up with art that would work well for their clients. If you’re in either of those fields, what sort of things do you look for? What can I do that would be helpful to you?

    1. KoiFeeder*

      Wow, that sounds very cool! I’m not in either field, so it may not matter, but what sort of art are you doing? I feel like sculpture would go differently from paintings would go differently from fabric arts. Or are you a generalist?

      1. Art!*

        Framed landscape photography that is very chill and relaxing– not the hypersaturated stuff you see so often nowadays.

      1. Minocho*

        Also, I would expect a mix of dominant color themes would be good. Cream and beige walls, light warm neutrals, were very popular for quite a while, but recently cooler grayish neutrals have been a thing. Having a variety of photos with different dominant color hues would allow complimentary “soft” works, or contrasting “accent” works to be chosen, depending on design needs.

    3. MP*

      Abstract – ethereal stuff with gold accents is really popular right now. Really large canvas stuff.

    4. JD*

      I’m not in those fields, but we just bought art for our law office this week. We went with oil paintings so we didn’t need to pay for framing. Our conference room is huge, so we wanted large pieces 3-5 feet wide. We wanted something nice but neutral and went with flowers and beach scenes. I can send you pics if you leave a way for me to do so.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Not my arena, but the first thing that popped into my head was a variety of price ranges.
      My friend does x for art. Most of his stuff is up around $1k or so. Additionally these pieces are large and not everyone has space for such a large piece. I tried suggesting that he make lower priced stuff. He said it was not worth it to him, too labor intensive. But his higher priced stuff does not move fast enough to keep food on the table.

    6. Reba*

      I previously worked in an art consulting firm — we worked with architects, decorators, facilities managers to place art in their buildings, ranging from totally custom glass installations to sets of posters. If you are in or near a city large enough to have that kind of profession, I’d reach out to them, too. By “furniture store” I’m guess you mean a high-end place–you need an environment that can support the prices you should be asking!

      Based on the consulting experience, what we need is some of the following:

      -flexibility on sizes (can you print at custom sizes or can you prepare offerings in several sizes) — this also means a range of price points, which can help a lot when you pitch a dealer/store
      -may want unframed, but may want you to frame — develop a relationship with a pro framer so you can offer this with high quality (archival) materials and get reasonable prices. Nice neutral frames, though occasionally a low-key gold frame on a small landscape can be a knockout
      -multiples or sets — coordinated images that can be sold and hung in pairs, trios, gallery walls… this is important!!! This could be things shot at the same place/day/subject, or things in a similar colorway or scale
      -sign the prints and offer some limited editions — we want this to be different from a poster or print we could order from a wholesaler, and this is one of the ways
      -similar to above in terms of differentiating yourself — are there local landmark places or beauty of significance that your local clientele would recognize? That can be a great seller because it’s something special you offer

      Good luck!

      1. Reba*

        You might also consider reaching out to wholesalers/publishers as mentioned above. It’s usually a royalties business. One I used to use for corporate and healthcare art was McGaw.

      2. Art!*

        Thanks! To address your specific points–

        — Thanks for telling me about art consulting firms! I had no idea such folks existed. I will definitely see if there are any in my area, and reach out! Is there any specific way I should reach out? I’m really new to this!

        — Yeah, these are high end furniture stores. I ran the numbers, and while I could not afford to buy my own stuff, the one furniture store I approached didn’t blink at my price list, and it seems in line with their other merchandise.

        — I’m planning on offering print sizes from 8×10 to 20×30, with larger sizes available for custom work. Prices from $350-$2000.

        — I was planning to offer matted prints, as well as matted and framed prints– I’m doing the framing myself, but I’ll use all archival materials. I was planning on plain black wood frames as my default, but I can do other frame types if the clients want it.

        — Yeah! Definitely sets! Even aside from the decorator considerations, I like being able to tell a story about an area.

        — Definitely signed limited editions– I figured limited editions of 30 at the price points I’m offering.

        — Yeah, certainly. And, in general, I was planning on specializing in landscapes of the southwest, and I live in the southwest, and there are plenty of southwestern-themed furniture stores, so…yes!

        Anyway, thanks so much!

    7. GLAMWorker*

      I work in an Art Gallery. It is important to do what you like, make what you are good at, and the clients will come. Speak to local businesses about hanging your art there. They can either take a commission for the sale or buy it from you and sell it at a markup. This will get you more exposure than having just a studio. You will not find an art style that will please everyone, (look at the comments suggesting landscape, abstract, geometric, such a variety of styles), people will buy art that speaks to them.

  11. bassclefchick*

    Well, the first week of new software is almost over. Yay! Monday was….ugly. I’m slowly getting used to the new way to do my job. Once this new software is fully functional and everyone is comfortable with it, it’s going to be a really good tool. But dang, I need to get away from my coworkers. Good thing I have whiskey at home. Thanks for letting me vent, everyone! I knew this week was going to be hard, but this has been worse than I could have imagined.

    1. Ctrl Alt Delete*

      We celebrate Whiskey Fridays, at home, too!

      The first week of software stories – everyone has one. Mine was with the Volunteer Income Tax Assitance program (free tax prep for families with low incomes). I ran a tax center with 60 volunteers and that year the IRS contracted w/ a new software provider and it was MESSY! Waits, info losses, shutdowns, and pain and suffering.

    2. Software Upgrade Woes*

      I almost thought you were my coworker – but we’re on week 2! Week 1 was really bad, though we’re slowly but surely getting better. But I’ve worked 12 days straight, and I’m exhausted. Good luck with week 2, and rest up this weekend!

  12. Environmental Compliance*

    I feel like I am beating my head against a wall with my direct report. In this week’s edition of “….but why?”, DR decided to wait 5+ hours to notify me of a loss in chemical feed (required by our permit), in which they have been trained more than once and have been directly told more than once they need to notify me immediately so that I can notify the proper authorities in the required timeline. Now we have *yet another* violation (likely with another fine) because of inattention. They “forgot” to tell me. And apparently forgot that this is their *job* to be doing.

    1. No Tribble At All*

      When do you get to fire Direct Report for, essentially, gross negligence? That’s super frustrating.

        1. irene adler*

          Really. I trust there’s disciplinary action in store for DR.
          (How many hours are there in an “immediately”? Answer: zero)

          1. Kathenus*

            And from your past comments I’m guessing this is the case, but make sure that expectations are clear and backed up with written protocols, and that all violations are documented to have available when/if disciplinary action is taken. Good luck.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              I just went back and checked the written goals DR signed off on…. “minimal noncompliance events; if something is improperly operating, this needs to be addressed within 1 hour of finding the problem”, “must be able to make decisions independently, accurately, and timely, for example adjusting chemical dosing rates”, “communicating effectively & appropriately; if potential noncompliance, notifying the correct people in a timely fashion (specifically calling out myself)”, “following all SOPs” which would include the trainings DR has sat in on about 4 times in the past 2 months where reasonable response actions were gone over in great detail.

              I don’t know if I could have made it more clear that this exact thing that was just done is a Big No.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Not sure. My supervisor is not really feeling like he’s going to have my back on this one, so I’m a little hesitant on what to do next.

        1. Observer*

          Wait, your supervisor is not likely to have your back even though DR has REPEATEDLY caused violations and fines? Maybe it’s time to start looping in someone with the authority to either over-ride him or someone who can push him in the right direction.

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Yeah, I’ll be talking to one of our parent company’s staff who is very good at putting bugs in ears.

    2. Boop*

      If you can’t fire the DR now, start a PIP immediately. Your DR is costing the company money and reputation. But I would move to terminate now, based on the fact that they have been trained and told to report the loss immediately and elected not to do so.

    3. Observer*

      And if you haven’t been doing that put EVERY. SINGLE. THING. you tell them into an email AND a paper memo that gets put on his desk or wherever they will see it.

      You definitely want to fire the one. But you also want to document that their misbehavior was not a result of no one trying to get it right.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, it’s been documented very clearly. (Benefits of a past career in gov’t is that I have documentation drilled into my skull, lol)

        It’s just so, so frustrating. So frustrating. Incredibly frustrating, especially when DR does something good and I want to send over a Good Job for XYZ! and then it’s immediately followed by another screw up. Come on, I KNOW you can perform at a much higher bar, DR!

          1. Environmental Compliance*

            Yes – ad nauseum. Just talked to my supervisor, who has agreed to proceed with at the very least a suspension.

            $2500 of fines in 1 month, 6 violations in two months, a lot of extra trainings & resources given, a crap ton of sass & blame thrown around by DR, a threat of quitting (at this point, it may be for the best)… and since I’ve been at the company, a lot of misdirection & at times blatant lying.

            1. Minocho*

              Oh no, that’s not good at all.

              I have made mistakes (being in IT offers all sorts of opportunities to blow things up through small mistakes or wandering focus), and I hate doing it, but I am driven to confess my errors and then fix them. Misleading or lying just makes it all a million times worse. You can never trust that person or rely on them. ugh. So sorry. Internet sympathies!

            2. No more games*

              Next time they threaten to quit ask request they put their notice in writing and accept it. If they won’t take responsibility for their own errors that cost fines and money they will never improve or change how they are handling the position now.

            3. Not So NewReader*

              Oh this is so done here.

              Fire him. Seriously. 6 violations in 2 months? That’s almost 1 per week.
              If you are not allowed to fire him, the next time he threatens to quit let him know that you are not stopping him.
              I can’t picture any job I have had tolerating this at all.

              1. Environmental Compliance*

                I do wish DR would have threatened to quit to me…. unfortunately, it was to another manager.

                I need a solid person in this position. Hoping the Monday meeting gets something going.

                1. valentine*

                  Is there an if-then document he can follow? Even if there are too many possibilities or he would rules-lawyer it, a second-to-last-ditch could be he has to look at an If column and follow the Then that says “Call Environmental Compliance”. Last-ditch effort: He calls you every hour on the hour.

                3. Environmental Compliance*

                  @ valentine – there actually is. There’s been multiple trainings on it. There’s even flow charts.

                  Unfortunately, it will not be a call me hour on the hour, as I have 8 million other things to do other than see if this one thing is hunky dory….which is part of DR’s job. My facility is a large Title V facility, and I have much more pressing things to do than babysit a tiny part of this facility (which would mean everything else suffers).

  13. Softcastle mccormick*

    Wish me luck—I have my first all-day corporate interview! It’s internal, which mitigates things, so I’m nervous but not panicking. Hopefully it’s a good fit for both myself and the company—it’s a different department from my own, and would be a great way to improve on some raw skills!

    5. alphabet soup*

      Good luck! Remember that you’re interviewing them as much as they’re interviewing you. :)

  14. Anonny*

    My husband feels cheated by his company and doesn’t know how to handle this situation.
    My husband, who is a Senior Teapot Engineer (and has been for 2 years, with the same company for 3 years), was groomed for a promotion that he didn’t get. His direct supervisor “Alan” told him a few weeks ago that he formally recommended him for a promotion to Teapot Manager. Alan has been hinting at a promotion for months, even telling my husband to put his name down as the Teapot Manager on their project because he thought it was inevitable. There is no reason not to believe Alan, as he has proven to be a transparent and honest manager. Alan’s boss, the Teapot Director “Dan”, oversees the promotions for their division but does not work with my husband on a daily basis. Dan and my husband have been in meetings together and interacted, but my husband confessed he isn’t even sure if Dan knows who he is (there have been email miscommunications where Dan sends emails meant for my husband to another coworker who is similar in appearance and age).
    My husband’s company only gives out promotions twice a year instead of as needed. Yesterday, Alan pulled my husband into a conference room and notified him that he was not getting the promotion – which means he won’t be up for consideration again for another 6 months. My husband feels duped and angry, as he has been doing the work of a Teapot Manager (running a $16m project) for the last year. The division my husband works in is small, and there is a need for Teapot Managers. He has lost a lot of confidence over this. He wants to request a meeting with both Alan and Dan to ask what factored into the decision, what he could improve upon, if he needs to be more involved with the company, etc. Alan said he doesn’t know why my husband didn’t get promoted and said as far as he knows, there haven’t been any complaints or issues with his work.
    What can my husband do in this situation, besides setting up a meeting with Dan? Has anyone else gone through this before, and how did you handle it?

    1. Quinalla*

      I would recommend setting up another meeting with Alan first to discuss what he needs to do to get to the promotion, what happened to what Alan led him to believe was a sure thing, etc. If all Alan told him was “you aren’t getting the promotion” with zero explanation, I feel he has some explaining to do.

      Then I would figure out how to get on Dan’s radar. Alan can help with that most likely, but your husband needs to figure out how to do that himself as well as it seems like that may have hurt him if Dan doesn’t really know who he is.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This sounds like a budget issue most likely. You say they need more Teapot Managers but the thing is, can they afford them? It’s odd that Alan is usually transparent but is now pulling the “IDK why but yeah, no promotion.” along with the fact that they only promote bi-annually [wtf that’s weird but yeah that’s company policy issue].

      He should speak with Alan and ask if he could meet with Dan as well. I wouldn’t go over Alan’s head because he’s been a good boss and may have his hands tied by some weirdness right now, so I’d just assume the best on his part. He probably over-spoke and overstepped by letting your husband think he was just going to be rubber stamped as soon as promotions were opened up.

      This reeks of money to me in a money position. I don’t blame your husband for his anger, he’s being strung along.

      1. Anonny*

        I agree that it was wrong for Alan to give false hope – maybe he thought his recommendation went further than it actually did. My husband did get a small raise (as all employees do), but no promotion. Alan wasn’t privy to the promotions/raises, but had to distribute the letter to my husband that said he was getting a raise. That’s why he knew there wasn’t a promotion without any explanation as to why not.

        You’re probably right that it’s a money thing with his department.

        1. CM*

          It’s Alan’s job to find out the reason at this point. So, I would say to ask Alan about it again and see what he plans to do to get that information. If it seems like he’s content to do nothing, THEN I would bring up the possibility of meeting with Dan. But it sounds like he’s been pretty proactive so far, so, if your husband tells him it’s important, he will probably promise to talk to Dan about it and try to get an answer.

          (FWIW, if Alan seemed totally confident that he had the authority to promote people right up to the moment this happened, it may be the case that this is a slight against Alan more than your husband, especially if Dan doesn’t know your husband. It might be that Alan should normally be able to promote people, but Dan’s blocking him for some reason. That wouldn’t make the outcome better, but it would mean Alan wasn’t trying to trick anyone.)

      2. CupcakeCounter*

        I had an Alan boss and my Dan was several levels up. Alan was always straight with me and after many, many months simply started showing instead of telling. He gave me copies of all the official promotion request documents where he had made his case and requested the promotion, his boss agreeing and signing off, and the next level up also giving their approval. Dan was always the one who never signed (and he had final approval).
        By the time I left I had 4 versions of this request and when Dan requested a meeting with me to try to counter my offer I told him no. Since he was the VP that didn’t fly well so he came to my desk to have a informal little chat and tell me how valuable I was and if we could speak privately he had a counter for me. I pulled out those 4 promotion requests and told him he obviously didn’t think I was all that valuable so I didn’t really want to hear his counter.
        I enjoyed that a lot. My Alan also gave notice that week.

    3. CmdrShepard4ever*

      This could also be an issue of Alan mistakenly thought his word carried more weight than it really did with Dan. Curious was the position just not filled or did someone else get it? I agree with Quinalla about asking Alans’s help to try and get on Dan’s radar.

      1. Anonny*

        As far as we know, the position was not filled. Alan confirmed that he has not heard any news of another Teapot Manager coming into their project.

        I agree that he needs to get on Dan’s radar, but it is difficult when he physically at their project site multiple times a week.

    4. AnotherAlison*

      Hmm. I have seen this before. I am an engineering project manager. I have coworkers in my group who have been promised this title & do the work, and don’t get the promotion. Sometimes, I know that my boss doesn’t like person X, doesn’t think they’re qualified, and will never give them that title. For us, it isn’t really a budget issue because people don’t get raises with promotions anyway. You get a raise at annual raise time, and you get it independent of your title, although a 3% raise as an engineer 5 may become a 5% raise as a PM 1 if you got the promotion during that period.

      I would talk to Dan and find out the reason, but I may also network with other divisions and see if there is another group that fits his skills. One of the people my boss doesn’t want to promote has been offered the role he wants in other departments. Sometimes, you just aren’t the right fit within one group, but you’re contributions will be recognized in another one.

      1. Anonny*

        Yes, this is a great idea. Since the division is small, there are only so many projects to go around and I think he’s considering switching to another division if there truly isn’t growth for him in his current area.

    5. Engineer Girl*

      Many times upper management or HR gets into a weird cost cutting mode and blocks promotions. Since Dan is not familiar with your husband he didn’t push for him or try to override HR.

      I’d have the meeting with Alan and talk to him. Remind him that the manager work is being done without the appropriate compensation.

      There’s two things at play here:
      Dan doesn’t know him. Get your name in front of Dan. You can do this with special assignments and also making yourself valuable to other groups who will also advocate with Alan for your promotion.

      The other side of this is that it will be more expensive if your husband leaves and they have to hire a manager from outside at full market rate.

      Many times HR and upper management think that engineers are interchangeable. They are not. A good engineer is 10x more productive than an average one.

    6. PopJunkie42*

      This could be my husband. He was trained for several years to be the replacement of his supervisor (who is very upwardly mobile and always looking for training/promotions). But they got a new branch director a few months before the job opened up and he ended up hiring an outside person. Who has been awful. My husband wasn’t “promised” the job but had basically been taking on extra duties and training for it for a long time and it was a huge blow to him…and still is.

      He didn’t get much good info from either his boss or the branch manager about why it happened, but he did go around to another former supervisor and some others in the company he trusted to get feedback. It was slightly helpful. At the end of the day, he may never know. I’m encouraging him to leave bc this isn’t the first promotion he’s been turned down for (all while people telling him: they love him, he interviewed well, he would be great in the position, except they just had this one perfect person come in…) so at a certain point, you have to go where the opportunities are.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      First, I hate hinting. I really hate hinting. It’s super annoying when bosses hint. They should know better.

      I understand Alan seems like a good boss but he promises things he cannot deliver. The rule is if I don’t have it in my hand then I do not have it to deliver. Therefore I cannot tell an employee that it’s theirs.
      I think Alan overstepped for whatever reason.

      I agree that your husband should ask to meet with Alan and Dan and find out what happened and how he can be assured of this promised promotion next time. If nothing else, he may learn that Alan is not the boss he thinks Alan is.

      1. valentine*

        what happened and how he can be assured of this promised promotion next time
        I would separate those, with the first part being with just Alan, so he doesn’t take over because he feels defensive and is being called out in front of his boss. But a meeting with Dan should maybe come first.

    8. Clementine*

      I may be characterized as encouraging people to start job hunting prematurely, but I think this is a case where it is justified. There is evidence that the OP’s husband is losing out for political reasons. If he does succeed eventually after complaining, there’s no guarantee there won’t be resentment. This does sound like a textbook case where the company will have an instant counteroffer as soon as he gives notice (like a poster above experienced).

  15. DaniCalifornia*

    Applying to jobs has been frustrating. The sheer volume of jobs/job titles/pay ranges out there that I can apply to has been overwhelming. (For reference I’ve worked a long admin career that pays a good salary) In the last week I’ve applied to 30+ jobs, many where I have to create a log in/pw, set up a profile, re enter my entire resume because their software *never* fills it in properly when you upload your resume, and answer endless questions. Ok, fine that’s the game and I have to play along.

    But then to find job ads that are so similar yet pay so differently is frustrating. I’ve applied to job ads that read like top level EA positions to CEO’s and require college degrees + 5 years experience only to be told later that they pay $10/hr. Most don’t list salary at all so I feel like it’s always a crapshoot if someone does contact me. My engineer husband as at least some semblance as he applies to job that they will be in a certain range. The positions I find run the range from $9/hr – 90K. -_- Some are upfront about salary on the phone (God bless them) and other’s I have to go through assessment tests, phone interviews, and in person interviews before finding out both parties have wasted their time.

    I am about 2 years out from finishing a degree in a completely unrelated field (less if I could be a FT student) and am so tempted to accept the student loans and find a PT low rung, no fuss, stress free, office job. But neither my husband or I have any student loans and ideally I would like to keep it that way. Has anyone done this? I fear that potential employers see I will graduate in a few years and won’t want to hire me. But keeping my education off my resume has limited me as well. I think I could make a job 1/2 my salary work if it were PT and I used student loans between my husbands job and being more frugal without touching our savings.

    1. Jellyfish*

      I attended grad school full time and took a part time, entry level job in the field I wanted to move into. When I graduated, I had both the degree and the experience, and I was able to find a really solid position in my field pretty quickly.
      My spouse worked full time through all this, and I took out student loans, but it was a worthwhile investment for me. It’s not the right path for everyone though.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        That is what I’m thinking of doing. I’m in admin right now but studying Graphic Information Technology online with a combined bachelors/masters program. I want to get into UX Design and have even been applying to more tech companies/design firms/marketing firms for admin roles but nothing’s panned out so far. I am burned out from 8 years of tax seasons and even my husband has said if we get to December with no new job I will quit. I know if I could fully concentrate on school I could build a better portfolio and starting salary for UX Designers or something related in that field would be able to cover at most 2 years of loans. My school is reasonably priced and accredited. Spacing out school so much is stressing me out as well. Thanks for your input!

        1. BethDH*

          Can you ask someone at your school about job placement recommendations? They may have ideas about which companies hire paid entry level PT or intern roles. You imply that you’re considering a range of things related to UX design, so that might also give you some sense of what precise aspects of UX-related roles are important to you, which will make your later applications more focused.

      2. Federal Middle Manager*

        This would be my recommendation too. You don’t say what you’re going to grad school for, and different degrees have wildly different success rates of landing a job in their chosen field. Experience in the field, even entry level experience, makes HR much more likely to consider your resume than school alone.

    2. Ruby314*

      I think it would be worthwhile to speak with a financial advisor who can help you plan out all the factors, like loan interest against future earnings, plus any future plans/goals that require money, like children, home buying, etc.

      But speaking as someone with a lot of student loan debt (mostly from grad school), if you can take a little longer and get your degree without debt, I would recommend taking that route.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        That is a good idea, thank you. I think we are looking at around 20k for the next 2 years or so as I’m getting a combined BS/MS online. And the field I’m going into pays way more than an admin career. But I don’t want to do anything stupid that could jeopardize future plans like you mentioned. We have a house but are looking into adoption. I am on board with taking longer if absolutely necessary. I struggle with being a non tradition student who is on her 16 year degree plan :/ (Messed around as a student, took breaks, didn’t know what I wanted to do. Finally started pursuing a clear path in 2015)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is very typical for an admin/EA role. It depends drastically on the company and how they value your work, so some are like “This is just filing papers [in their eyes] therefore it’s minimum wage work!” others will see it as an critical role where you’re the right-hand to someone very-important and throw a wad of cash at you.

      Unlike engineer work or something that’s extra specific and takes specific skills that you have to be trained for extensively.

      Schooling is often a waste. I’ve seen so many people become FT students and then rack up their degrees and still be stuck with the same issue when it comes to job hunting that you’re running into now. Anyone who requires a BA from an EA is a garbage company [not literally at a garbage facility] and therefore should be immediately rejected in my experience. As you see, many just want to still pay you $10 an hour. For student debt? LOL no.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        My degree is in a tech field and I will be finding a job in that when I finish it, not staying in EA type roles.

        I agree a degree for an EA is dumb. I’ve never met anyone in college who had said “Oh I’m here to be an admin.”

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I’ve seen people with degrees struggle to get into tech as well unfortunately so my gut still says that you don’t want to take on student debt for that either. Since really, getting a foot in the door is always key and the hardest part of anything.

          And there are scam programs that they try to sell people to do administrative work but those are usually on the junior college level. I have seen them listed on resumes and they kill me deep down on the inside where my heart should be if it hadn’t shriveled up after seeing solid hard working people struggle for years trying to find work.

        2. techPerson*

          I’d recommend being careful. A number of people I know suspect there’s a bubble about to pop in tech. There’s only so long before companies realize that “cloud” and “blockchain” and “AI” aren’t actually magic words that create money from almost nothing.

      2. Ella P.*

        Thank you!

        At my current company (job searching now) they required an MA for the EA to the CEO. They could only find one person who had that degree so they hired her right away.

        Not only is she unskilled (meaning she emails me, another EA and my Senior Exec boss (!) to ask if her boss needs a visa for a certain country, etc.) she is actually one of the nastiest people I’ve ever worked with. And I mean rude to external stakeholders and even client contacts.

        It’s beyond comprehension…

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      I got a well-paid PT position at the school where I went – the commute was great and they always worked around my schedule. Data entry level stuff that could be done anytime plus a small discount on tuition and books.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Unfortunately my school is all done online and the actual campus is at ASU. But I have been looking at some of my local universities.

    5. PopJunkie42*

      Are you going to school in person or online? My university gives staff tuition reduction – you have to be careful because it’s taxed as a benefit, but it’s soooo worth it if you can take advantage. I’m always encouraging my friends who are enrolled to try and find a part-time job with benefits (we pay at 20+ hours per week) and do what they can. I’ve seen jobs for our campus Starbucks, ticket sales at athletic events, of course admin positions of all kinds…lots of interesting stuff out there.

    6. fhqwhgads*

      If you’re actually in California it should not take all this I have to go through assessment tests, phone interviews, and in person interviews before finding out both parties have wasted their time. to get them to give you the range. If you’ve been as far as a phone screen, you’re probably far enough in the process that they’re required by law to provide the range when you ask for it.

    7. Kat in VA*

      Admin is one of those weird ones where you can tell what the company thinks of good admin support (and how much to pay them). The companies that realize we’re essential to the running of things behind the scenes tend to pay from well to very well, and the companies that consider admins the coffee/copying/clean the kitchen types pay very poorly. The trick is finding the former!

  16. What’s with Today, today?*

    Some of you may remember I’m on a board hiring a new ED for a non-profit and the former ED’S resignation went fine and then the notice period was rough. You were right we are finding all sorts of, um, interesting things.

    Just a snippet, but this is a recent one:

    Her final act as ED was to mail out 500 directories she & staff have been working on for two years. They should have gone out in June 2018, but she had blamed an unnamed staffer for losing the files and pushed them back a year(we’ve now learned from the staff that she accidentally deleted the files herself). We were pretty adamant they had to go out before she left as they had finally been finished. She put a copy of her letter of resignation plus all her contact info at her new organization and a goodbye note into all 500 directories.

    We used to have a donor that gave tens of thousands of dollars. He stopped last year. We had asked ED about that last year, and she told us she’d approached him like always and he declined due to a recent divorce and finances. Okay. Now that she is gone, he wants to come back! Now we have found out that at 3 a.m. one morning, for some unknown reason, the former ED, irritated about something that isn’t important here, fired off an angry email to him! It was so offensive (we’ve now seen it), THAT is why he stopped being a donor and the former ED knew that was why he dropped his donations the very same morning! Staff knew, but no one ever told the board. We’d probably have fired her.

    When you know something is wrong, tell the board (I totally know that doesn’t always work and can backfire, but we really would have liked to have known, and like to think we’re approachable and kind).

      1. China Beech*

        WOW, that is next level banacrackers, especially the part about her including her contact info and resignation letter in the directories. :Unprofessional” doesn’t even begin to cover that! Glad it’s all be revealed and things are improving! How do people like that get these big jobs though?!

        1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

          It reminds me of the short answer question here from some time ago, about a college alumni director leaving and basically sending an email blast to the entire alumni base letting them know she was leaving and asking for job leads. So, so unbelievably inappropriate!!

        2. Fact & Fiction*

          I agree that it’s unprofessional but it sounds like this may actually be a blessing in disguise for the nonprofit! At last everyone she offended will know she’s gone and hopefully come back if she chased them off!

    3. Behind Anemone Lines*

      Appropriate staff training for how to whistleblow, in a non-profit, was lacking. I hope that the Board is reviewing the employee handbook on how to better prepare staff and then, hosting a training on how the process works, if not ensuring the new ED understands the process, as well as their role and responsibilities, too.

      There are several reasons why they didn’t report their boss. One- some may not have felt it was a reportable offense to the Board. Another reason could be is that they don’t know the parameters of how to report their boss, to whom, with what information, and follow-up. They don’t know how the Board is to take the information and the process of review and resolution.

      If you simply say, ‘Tell the Board’ which person on the Board? The person the staff member works with on a Committee, the President, the head of Finance if it’s a money issue? And who reports it? The Coordinator who saw it first goes to the Board or do they go to their boss and then together they go to the Board?

      As a Board, you believe you’re approachable and kind, which is fine, but you’re governance not the day to day managers. It all backfires when you don’t have a process. No process means staff will come to you for all sorts of grievances, that should be managed at lower levels. No process also means that they’ll never come to you. You have to set expectations and parameters for engagement.

      Example: our non-profit has two new leadership positions. One person is not doing well at all. Established staff, who have a good relationship with their kind and approachable Board members, are sharing their grievances with said Board members. This then turns the ear of the Board inward versus up and outward. They’re concerned about this new person when it’s not within their purview and grievances should be going to the ED.

      1. Anathema Device*

        Mm. Don’t say: tell the board. Say: here’s the number for the independent whistleblowing hotline you can call.

        1. Behind Anemone Lines*

          Unless the nonprofit contracts with one, there’s no reason to say that either. The Board exists for this type of responsibility, but it has to be well considered, organized, and implemented.

        2. What’s with Today, today?*

          “Tell the board.”

          That was a super general comment I was making to the commentariat.

          1. Behind Anemone Lines*

            I understand. As I consider AAM a learning resource, a super general comment doesn’t help educate others on what to expect in appropriate board/staff relations. Sounds like your Board will be working on improving the whistleblower policies for staff. Good for everyone.

          2. Observer*

            True. But Behind Anemone lines has a good point.

            No one told you even though they should have. Why? This provides a good starting place for figuring out the answer.

      2. CmdrShepard4ever*

        I agree with this. Not to try and pile on you “What’s with Today, today?” but if people did not report this to the board it is partly the boards fault for not making employees feel like they could approach the board. It could be that the board did everything right but employees just chose not to approach the board. How much contact does the board have with lower level staff? I’am not just referring to official contact but just friendly contact, participating in the direct mission of the non-profit. As “lines” said make sure there is a process in place for contacting the board with issues.

        1. What’s with Today, today?*

          We are in a town of less than 25,000. We see the staff daily. One of the staffers is best friends with a board member. Like, they go on family vacations together. I go to church with two staffers, the husband of one is our preacher. We’ve been told they just didn’t want her to get in trouble. She’s likable. They like her. It’s very hard to hire people that don’t know each other in a town like ours. We can’t pay enough to bring someone from out of state necessarily (and the nature of our work means they need to be super familiar with our town). I appreciate the advice, but I’m just really just venting here, and didn’t actually ask for any advice. There are policies in place, staff didn’t use them because they didn’t want to get her fired. We’re addressing that. Again, I’m just venting.

          1. Observer*

            I’m glad that you are addressing this. I’m going to say that you really need to think about why they saw her doing this really harmful stuff and STILL put “save her job” above the sensible and correct thing. Because if you don’t figure out why they thought that way, you’re going to have a hard time EFFECTIVELY addressing this.

          2. Just my thoughts*

            If you just need to vent and don’t want any advice, maybe an advice column comment section isn’t the best place for it. All kinds of people read posts here, and I think people have brought up some very good points that will help others reading, not just you.

        2. That Girl From Quinn's House*

          Agreed. I worked in a nonprofit that was rife with various ethical, pay, and safety violations.

          If you complained, you were retaliated against. Upset that your boss asked you to work off the clock? You lose your hours. Upset about racial or gender discrimination? Never be promoted again. Talk to HR to double check a policy issue? Expect to be micromanaged for the next 90 days as they try to find a mistake that’s cause for termination, either for you or one of your trusted subordinates. Report a safety violation? You’re going to be working 7 days a week for the next two months.

          HR (and probably the board) was fully unaware this was going on.

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          I missed the “the” in you sentence and read it as:

          “In my case, our employee handbook was updated last week before I was born.”

          It made me crack up. A one week old babe with a job and already jaded at all the stuff they have to deal with.

    4. stelms_elms*

      The ED at my former organization had a policy that if we spoke to anyone on the board except the chair about any complaints we had (or anything really), we would be immediately fired. And she made darn sure she was always best friends with whomever the board chair was at the time.

      1. Behind Anemone Lines*

        That’s awful. While there’s a sensible line to be had between staff and Board, but the no line tactic in both directions means absolute paranoia on the ED’s part.

      1. EinJungerLudendorff*

        But you’re doing it on an advice column, so people will try to help you regardless.

    6. Elizabeth West*

      Holy shitballs, that donor thing. It’s good that he wants to come back, but offending a major donor like that could have really hurt you.

    7. Hello!*

      Hi! I am the previous writer about being a new staff member and literally the entire staff wants to oust our non-profit’s ED. He has done plenty of horrific actions as a leader, but I won’t get back into them. We are too scared to go to the board since quite a few members are receiving financial incentives from him.

      If you want the employees to know that you are approachable, make that clear to them. Tell each and every employee that, assuming they don’t have an HR dept., that the board is their HR and they can come to you without pause.

      1. KGB*

        Is it possible you could begin by sending a letter to the board anonymously and tell them where to dig to find the evidence of these actions? Otherwise is there another way you could out him either to the board or to the community as a whole for past behavior by sending them the proof?

  17. ginkgo*

    Phone interview this morning – wish me luck!

    And a question: This would be my first Llama Groomer role, and the hiring manager who I’m about to speak with is actually hosting a panel on Breaking Into Llama Grooming in a couple weeks. (I assume I’ll have heard back about this phone interview either way by then, but maybe not.) Is it awkward for me to go? Does the awkwardness level change depending on whether I move forward in the interview process or not? Anything I should keep in mind?

    3. L.S. Cooper*

      I have to assume the hiring manager will be aware that you’re wanting to break into llama grooming, and the fact that they’re hosting the panel suggests that they care at least a little bit about helping other people break into llama grooming as well. I feel like it should be fine to go!

      And good luck! Break a leg, etc.

    5. Jill March*

      I can see how it may feel awkward if you don’t move forward in the process, but I think going anyway would only reflect well on you. I don’t know if you plan on networking with the hiring manager directly at the event, but your attendance would show that you are serious about breaking into the field and may help you stand out for future roles or positions in other companies where the hiring manager may have influence.

    6. ginkgo*

      Thanks for the well wishes everyone! Inconclusive yet kind of awesome result: The hiring manager said she wanted to be honest that they were looking for someone with llama grooming experience and that several such people had already interviewed, although it sounded like I (despite my llama wrangling background) had the right mindset for thinking through llama grooming issues. Basically she was really transparent about the fact that I didn’t quite have enough experience, but said I was welcome to move on to the next step (a llama grooming test) and was honest about my chances. I took that as an opening to mention that I was planning on attending her panel, and she was like “I was actually thinking about mentioning how I just interviewed a super smart woman with a llama wrangling background, and how people like that can make the transition to llama grooming!” It was just really refreshing because I feel like I’ve often been the candidate who they interview despite not having quiiiite enough experience, but no one explicitly says that and I’m left wondering what I could have done better. This way leaves the door open to me unexpectedly blowing them out of the water on the practical test, or possibly being contacted about a junior llama grooming position down the line, but if I don’t end up advancing in this interview process I don’t have to wonder what went wrong. And now I feel no awkwardness about attending the panel, and have potentially made a useful contact. :)

  18. New ED*

    How do you determine when issues related to communication, following directions, getting along with others, and other soft skills outweigh solid work product in retaining an employee? We have a staff person who works really odd hours (we have flexible scheduling bit expect everyone to generally be in during core 10-4 hours), is defensive in response to any feedback or correction, frequently assumes that general instructions to staff don’t apply to him, and likes to set his own priorities rather than follow the organizations priorities. The obvious question is, why does he still work there? And it is because when he does do the work he needs to do, he does better work than anyone at his level. In trying to figure out how to weight that against the other problems and when it may be time to let him go.

    1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

      Does it affect other employees and their work?
      He might have a ripple effect that lowers everyone’s work quality.

      1. New ED*

        I think it effects the people he does work for, so are involved in these discussions, but not the others at his level because the work streams are completely separate. It may impact the culture negatively which could impact others but we’re not seeing anything concerning on this front yet

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          You say “when he does do the work he needs to do, he does better work than anyone at his level” how often is that? If you have great work 50% of the time and no work the other 50% overall that is not very good. Also remember just because he is currently the best one on the team, it doesn’t mean there is no one better out in the world. My general belief is there is always someone better, faster, stronger, smarter. If you hire someone you could hire someone who does great work 100% that’s an exaggeration but you get the point.

          You say when this person does work it effects people he does work for, how does it impact them, do they have to pick up the slack. Is the work that does not get done non critical work? It is really hard to say when enough is enough with out knowing all the details, some positions can have a higher/lower threshold of slacking.

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      Is he just defensive or does he also ignore the feedback/correction?

      I work with someone like this. He is a nice enough guy, and his work is good, but it drives me batsh*t crazy how he just goes off on his own and finds something he’s interested in and starts working on that while ignoring the work that was assigned to him. AND he butts into conversations and projects that were assigned to someone else because he finds them more interesting than his own.

      The real damage, as far as I’m concerned, is that he is screwing up the team and workplace dynamics for everyone. We have always had a lot of leeway in terms of priority, for example. As a general rule, if we’re given a small task and it turns out to be a tip of the iceberg and we get motivated to take a week to clear out the whole iceberg, that’s been acceptable. If we’ve overheard a discussion about something we’ve done work on in the past, it’s been fine to interject with our knowledge and/or an offer to help. But now that he’s trampled all over the loose boundaries that were well understood, EVERYONE is more on edge.

      If your employee is defensive, but responds to correction, then please, for the luvagod CORRECT HIM. Your other employees will thank you for it. If he doesn’t respond to correction, as someone who has been stuck with this problem in a colleague, then yes, I think it’s time to think about getting rid of him.

      1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

        I think you just said everything that needed to be said about this!!

      2. New ED*

        Thanks, this is really helpful perspective. To clarify on the priority issue, it’s not that he’s taking on anyone else’s work but rather that we say “research what happened in the last year on A, B, and C and get back to us by the end of the week with a one page memo on each by the end of the week.” Then, he does research on the fifty year history of A and provides a 10 page memo on A. I think a lot of it may be transitioning from being a student in an advanced degree program to working in a professional setting but the patience of his supervisors is wearing thin.

        1. Rezia*

          I’m don’t think that delivering a 10 page memo is actually “good performance”… if you’re asked for a 1 page memo, you should deliver a 1 page memo.

          I would tell him directly that he needs to follow the brief as part of his performance expectations.

          1. New ED*

            Yes, we have is just not quite sinking in. The reason we say it is excellent performance is that there is a very steep learning curve for our type of work. Most junior staff can only comprehend about a quarter of the content we want, not their fault, just the nature of our very niche field, he gets about 90% of it.

        2. Interplanet Janet*

          Honestly, our guy isn’t usually taking ON anybody else’s work. He just sort of butts into it and wants to be involved in lots of long discussions about how it should be done, etc, and then still leaves the original person to do it. Which is fine, useful even, in moderation. But at this point it feels to me more like he just sort does whatever he feels like doing. If it happens to match up with what he was assigned, great, but if not … well, nobody in management seems to say anything, which is what makes me nuts.

      1. New ED*

        I understand this point but would say that I don’t think it’s deliberate. I do think he may be on the spectrum or have some mental health challenges. However, regardless we do need him to be following direction.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          It does sound deliberate if the instructions given to him were “Write a 1 page report each on A, B, and C” and he gives you a 10 page report on A and ignores B and C altogether. There’s really no room for misunderstanding if you ask “Where are the 1 page reports on A, B, and C?” and the answer is, he didn’t do them.

          I’m an academic at heart. We may *want* to dig deep into a subject that interests us, but if that’s not the job, then we don’t do it. If he gets defensive because that’s all he wants to do, then he’s in the wrong job and he should be set free to find the right fit.

          1. New ED*

            I think it’s that he can’t possibly understand that his memo could be of use without the 9 pages of background and he, for whatever reason, seems incapable of understanding that we have the skills to get what is needed from the one pager. That said, you’re completely right that this isn’t the right fit. I think we’re just trying to figure out if any of this is coachable and wet can make it work or we need to figure out an exit strategy. I’m leaning towards that but having trouble pulling the trigger. This advice has all been helpful in pushing me in that direction.

            1. Observer*

              If he really can’t understand how you could possibly get any use out of the one pager, he is actually missing a SIGNIFICANT “hard” skill – he doesn’t understand the subject well enough to figure out how to abstract the most salient pieces. If he came to you with 1.5 pages, that would be one thing but *10* when you asked for one? That’s a hard fail right there. It’s not that he did “too much”, it’s that he DID THE WRONG THING. And he doesn’t get it.

              Also, regardless of whether *he* thinks the one pager is useful or not, he needs to do as he is instructed. Period. The only exceptions to that kind of thing is when there is a safety, ethical or legal issue at play. That isn’t the case here.

        2. Observer*

          People on the spectrum are generally capable of following instructions. So, unless there is something else going on here that you haven’t mentioned there is nothing to indicate that he’s on the spectrum. And even if he is on the spectrum or there are other circumstances you haven’t mentioned, it’s STILL not relevant, that’s not a highly likely reason for not following instructions.

          People on the spectrum often get a bad rap. It’s not useful, and it’s not fair to people on the spectrum to perpetuate that by equating unrelated poor behavior with “on the spectrum.”

          1. only acting normal*

            The only thing spectrumy that chimed with me was ‘works odd hours’ + ‘we expect 10-4 core hours’. If it were me and the written rule says flexible hours, I would not catch the unwritten ‘but really you need to be in 10-4’. If that *is* the implicit rule, make it explicit. Everything else is failing to follow simple clear instruction – not an ASD problem.

            1. New ED*

              There are other issues that suggest ASD, not the lack of instruction following specifically. And the core hours is a written rule, in our handbook. We do offer some flexibility, even within the core hours but that is earned and we want junior staff in the office core hours to ensure they can get guidance and real time feedback on the work. This is mentioned explicitly on staff meetings.

                1. only acting normal*

                  Honestly most of the “symptoms” of ASD are experienced internally by the person, not manifested externally in an obvious way (certainly not by being a general arsehole, which is what usually seems to prompt speculation).
                  If he’s not doing the work he’s assigned, breaking office rules, and generally causing issues with coworkers, ASD wouldn’t be an excuse even if he did have it.

              2. Observer*

                OK.

                ASD is a total red herring here. For everyone’s sake, don’t even let the issue be mentioned in passing. NONE of the behavior you mention is typically a symptom of ASD. And what you describe ranges from “legitimate problem” to “time to start on a firing plan”.

                Don’t muddy the waters. Stick to what you know is happening: He is not complying with written policies; he repeatedly fails to follow specific instructions; he frequently fails to get his work done; does not take instruction and correction well; and seems to lack understanding of his subject at a high level.

                And, no, what you describe is NOT solid work product either.

    4. Kathenus*

      Agree with the prevailing thought of the other comments that it is a big issue in a lot of ways – for possibly setting a bad example/precedent for other employees, demoralizing them if they see this and feel he’s held to a lower standard than they are, etc. Your initial comment doesn’t specify if there has been a very clear conversation with him about this, other than the reference to defensiveness. The conversation can be along the lines of ‘you have a lot of great skills and do xx work very well, but success in this job also includes following all staff instructions and priorities, taking feedback constructively, and whatever other things he needs to improve on’. Make it clear that he has a lot of positive skills, but the ‘soft skills’ are just as important and are required to succeed in the role. For instructions/priorities, make sure they’re in writing so that there’s no grey area in what direction the whole team is given. If there hasn’t been this type of clear discussion, I’d have it first because you might turn him around, and even if you don’t you’ll have given him every possibility to succeed and let the choice be his. Good luck.

      1. New ED*

        Yes, we have had several conversations with him, his supervisors (his work involves reporting to two supervisors) and myself. We’ve been very clear with him that what we are seeing is very concerning. Often things we address directly do change temporarily but then we go back to the same pattern.

        1. Observer*

          Often things we address directly do change temporarily but then we go back to the same pattern.

          That’s a huge red flag. Because that indicates that he will not change. The only possibility is if he knows with crystal clarity that his job depends on these changes sticking. At that point it’s going to depend on why his changes have not stuck.

    5. ten-four*

      I think if you’re asking the question then the scales have tipped towards firing him.

      In general, I think of people’s work as having a ceiling and a floor: there’s a floor, which is the minimum level of being good at your core job and playing well with others. And on the ceiling side, there’s a point at which excelling at your core job hits diminishing returns. It varies for different jobs (which is why complete jags who sell millions get to stay in sales/biz dev jobs), but for most jobs someone who’s Really Good at X isn’t exponentially different from someone who’s good at X. If the good at X person is a good communicator/teammate, then 9 times out of 10 I’d rather have that person that Genius Dillweed.

    6. Hey Karma, Over here.*

      Think about it this way:
      I would be the best damn llama groomer you ever saw if I only had to groom the llamas I wanted to groom when I wanted to groom them.
      I would do great work too, if I could pick the day I feel like doing it.
      My work would be better than everyone else’s if, on the day I choose to work, I only focus on that and ignore every other part of my job.

    7. Jill March*

      In my experience, soft skills are the hardest to teach while most technical skills can be learned. If the tech skills are hard to find and this employee is a superstar when it comes to work produced, are there ways you can mitigate the negative effects of their weaknesses? How important is it that people work from 10-4? Is work from home a viable option? Can feedback happen over email?

      I’m sympathetic if this is the result of things that can’t be helped, like health or disability issues or people who are neuroatypical. I went through a period where health issues were affecting my work and thankfully, my company worked with me to develop a plan to accommodate my needs while minimizing the effect on my coworkers. That last bit was tricky, but my manager and I were creative and we figured out something that worked.

      The key was that I was very aware of the problem and extremely willing (and grateful) to do what I could to make the situation work. (Plus, I was very good at my job and valuable to the company.) Does the employee recognize the problem and are they willing to put in the effort to find a solution and make it work? That would be the deciding factor for me.

    8. Observer*

      You say “when he does the work”. The major question you need to answer is how often is it that he actually does what he needs to do? A lot depends on the nature of the work, but I can’t see ANY situation where less than 75% is tenable.

      The other question is what effect is it having on others. If he’s making the jobs of other people more difficult or making the workplace difficult for others, the cost of his attitude is too high.

    9. Jules the 3rd*

      How much do you need him to do the soft skills?
      How hard would it be to find a replacement for the hard skills? (Data scientists are hot / expensive right now, might be hard to replace)
      What has been the impact of his work? Is he getting close enough often enough to justify his pay?
      Is there any real impact to his ‘weird hours’?

      You say he’s not disrupting other flows, and I don’t see anything in this that supports an ‘insubordination’ charge. It seems that you have looked for external impacts and not found any. That means you can focus on the actual cost and benefit of his work. Let go of trappings like ‘is his butt in the seat’ and focus on the value he brings – is it enough to justify his pay?

    10. Lilysparrow*

      If he doesn’t follow instructions or assigned priorities, how could he be delivering solid work product?

      It’s not solid if it’s not the work product you need, when you need it.

    11. CM*

      I had somebody kind of like this once, and I’m not sure I handled it well. In retrospect, I think it might have helped to quantify what was happening a little bit more. Like, how often is he actually there? In real numbers? How many hours does he actually work on how many days? How much does he produce? How long does it take to produce it? Etc.

      Maybe this is someone who you could be paying to jump into certain projects as an independent contractor but he’s not pulling his weight as a full time employee.

      I guess what I’m suggesting is, find a way to answer the question, “How often do we pay him to do nothing or something other than the job we thought we were paying him to do?” and then see if you’re okay with that or not.

    12. Not So NewReader*

      Is he worth losing other staff over?
      How many staff members can the company lose before they consider it a problem?

      Your staff is being expected to manage this guy. Are they getting extra pay to manage him?

      The concept that he is better at X than anyone else is a trap. He can use that against your company in any way he chooses to get whatever it is he wants.

      In my opinion, getting along with others is 50% of any job. What if everyone else there interacted the way he did, what would happen to your company?

      My magic number is 3. Once is an honest mistake. Twice is a yellow flag. Three times is a pattern. You see something three times you got a pattern and it needs to be addressed and changed. This is a fellow adult, not a child, you don’t have to endless correct for the same misbehavior.

    13. ..Kat..*

      Keep in mind that other employees may be leaving because of him. If this is so, that raises the cost of keeping him quite a bit.

  19. Some Sort of Management consultant*

    How do I get better at communicating and keeping my managers up to date?

    I struggle with communicating consistently with my colleagues and managers. I have a very free and flexible job, but it’s something I’ve gotten feedback about every year. My performance is great, but my managers say they’re not always sure of where I am and what I’m doing on a given day.

    I know it’s a bad, bad trait and I am working hard to improve it but I’m not quite there yet. It’s a combination of ADHD, impostor syndrome and some other stuff. I know that’s not an excuse.

    I try to establish routines and structure but my automatic reaction is to leave my bosses and colleagues alone, especially if I’m struggling. Or sometimes I decide to work from home, feel bad about it and don’t tell anyone because I feel ashamed. Thus making it into a problem when it wasn’t. I also always feel I’m not really performing as well as I should and that makes me not want to tell anyone what I’ve been doing…

    I’m this way in my personal life as well, but it’s just not acceptable in a work setting.

    I just don’t know how I can improve this. I just don’t have the… grit to stick to my own structures. Help?

    (I don’t mind tough love but this is hard and shameful for me to admit. Also, while this causes me much anxiety, my employer are satisfied with my work and my performance)

    1. londonedit*

      Are your managers OK in general with you setting your own schedules, and it’s just the communication of it that they want more of?

      Do you have a shareable calendar that you could use to indicate where you’ll be and what hours you’ll be working? That way, you could just change it to ‘working from home’ and your managers could just have a look and see where you were going to be for the week/the next day etc. The way it works in my office is that you can totally decide to work from home, but you do need to email your boss/the immediate members of your team. You just say ‘Hi all, I’ll be working from home tomorrow – available on phone and email’, or sometimes even ‘I’ll be working from home tomorrow – I’ll be working on the big report for most of the morning, so will log out of email, but call me if you need me’. Can you start a system of doing something similar?

      1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

        Yes, they’re fine with that and encourage it (not all the time of course), it’s the “telling people where I am so they don’t worry” part they (rightly) don’t like.
        Hm, no shareable calendar but I’ve been doing my best to tell my team from WhatsApp similarly to what you described. But it might make sense to start using a skype status. It’ll take some effort to stick to it but it should be possible.

        It’s just so embarrassing to struggle with this basic thing.

        1. londonedit*

          Try to remember that your managers really aren’t seeing this as a huge personality flaw of yours – they’re not mentioning it because you’re ‘getting it wrong’ or as a slight on you as a person, they’re mentioning it simply because it makes the world of work easier if everyone communicates their schedules to everyone else. I doubt they’re seeing it as something you should be embarrassed about. It’s just ‘Hey, it would really be useful if we could see where/when you’re working, and it would be great if you could keep us up to date with any changes’.

          I think Google calendars can be shared – you could set one up for yourself, and share it with your bosses. It might not solve the guilt you feel about working from home in the first place (which by the way isn’t you ‘leaving your bosses alone’, it’s normal!) but it might make it easier if you can feel like it’s not such a big deal and it doesn’t have to be an actual conversation, just an update on a calendar.

          1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

            Thank you for that first paragraph! I needed that reminder. They don’t see it as a huge flaw, you’re right. In fact, they’d be downright miserable to realize I was stressing so over this.

        2. Interplanet Janet*

          If it makes you feel any better, I have this same hangup. I have no idea where it comes from. Other people on my team blithely send email announcing they’re WFH or whatever, but I just feel so awkward and weird about it. I definitely prefer the less public “set a calendar item” system.

          What about sending an email like this:

          “I’ve gotten feedback that folks would like better transparency around my work hours and location. I’ve been thinking about the best way to address this. Starting Monday, I’d like to try something different. I’ve set up a new calendar [I’m assuming your company uses some sort of calendaring system; I know Google calendar has the feature where you can turn on and off access to different calendars] entitled Time Off and WFH. I’ll be indicating my hours and location on this calendar, and updating it as necessary. If you need to know where I am or when I’ll be in the office, you’ll be able to check at any time. I hope this will work to keep you all informed without me feeling like I need to interrupt you with frequent updates.”

          And then do that. Put in your rough plan as you know it, update the night before? Maybe?

          1. Alianora*

            If the managers have specifically asked OP to tell them when they’re working from home, this might not solve the problem. I think this type of calendar can work well, but if the culture is just to send an email or Slack message then I would check with the managers first before announcing it to the team.

            I tend to overthink emails like that too, but honestly it’s a little like jumping into a pool. You just have to get used to it.

            I promise that if everyone else does it, and your managers have specifically asked you to do it, no one is going to think you’re being weird or awkward for sending that email. Try it out for a month and see if you still feel that weird about it.

        3. RandomU...*

          Either that (the skype status) or maybe a loose round up of activities planned for the next week emailed to the boss or a coworker.

          “Hey boss, just a quick update. Next week I’ll be finishing up the paperclip sorting project, I’m planning to start the pencil sharpening project I’ve been talking about, and meeting with the cube committee to pick out the new beige color. Location plans: M and T will be in office A, W I plan to WFH, and Th-F will be on site at the cube farm”

          If you do then decide to change things up, you already have a bit of a structure you can use for updates… Resend on Tuesday and say, “Decided to WFH instead of the office, rest of the week still looks the same”

          1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

            Excellent idea, if only I could keep it up. I start, fear I’m getting behind and into avoidant/hiding mode.

            I know I’m being all contrary. I’m just plain bad at sticking to stuff. Hard for someone els3 to fix, I know!

    2. Jellyfish*

      Can you set up a regular, weekly meeting with your manager? That gives you a set time to talk to them without feeling like you’re bothering anyone. It would also give you an opening to review what you’ve been up to and what you’re planning for the upcoming week.

      1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

        I have and it helps a lot!
        The biggest issue is that I have a lot of different workstreams so it’s easy for stuff to slip through the cracks.

        1. First Time Caller*

          Maybe using something like Trello, with different cards for each of the workstreams, and keeping it in front of you during the meeting, would remind you to talk through with them each of the areas of your work?

        2. ManageHer*

          Do you have a check-in document with your manager? For roles with a lot of moving pieces, it can help a LOT. Here’s an example of how I’ve laid mine out (and as someone who struggles to focus and remember details, the act of updating this helped minimize how many things I let slip):
          A. Projects
          Project 1 – Things I Accomplished Recently; Things on My To-Do List; Questions/Risks
          Project 2 – Things I Accomplished Recently; Things on My To-Do List; Questions/Risks
          etc.
          B. Priorities
          I’d list the 5-6 things that were my main priorities between now and our next check-in here.
          C. Schedule/Career Development/Etc.
          If I was WFH, taking PTO, or attending a training, I’d list it here.

          The benefit of using a really ~extra~ document like this when you check in with your manager is that you’re showing them everything. No black holes! Your *conversation* will naturally gravitate to the big stuff, but you’re still communicating about everything.

    3. WellRed*

      “Or sometimes I decide to work from home, feel bad about it and don’t tell anyone because I feel ashamed.”

      Have you considered not working from home?

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I have!
        Here’s the deal: due to health issues I do a lot better in the long term if I have a day a week away from people. I also have a lot of medical appointments. By some sort of amazing luck, I’ve found an employer who both allow and encourage that. It’s just me that needs to fulfill my end of the bargain.

    4. LGC*

      Two things:

      1) To quote Captain Awkward, trust their yes. (I am seriously getting into CA now, and I’m surprised it took this long.) Your bosses don’t mind if you “bother” them to say you’re doing WFH! They DO mind that sometimes they’re looking for SSMC and whoops you’re out of the office.

      2) You don’t have to be as loud as humanly possible about it. Make it as frictionless for you as possible. That is – I’d suggest making a public (visible to whoever needs it) calendar with your locations. Update as needed – which might be difficult for you to remember to update it constantly, but if you do it once a week (let’s say Friday afternoon for the next week) that will help a lot.

      Shared calendars are great because they can be less “intrusive” than email, in my opinion. So that might help avoid feeling like you’re imposing on people.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I ADORE Captain Awkward!

        We only use outlook and can’t share more info than busy/not busy.
        Realistically, if I could be consistent in sending regular updates once a week, update my skype status, and answer most emails within 24 hours, it would probably be enough.

        1. LGC*

          So…I’m not sure how your company’s Outlook is set up and also I’m not ADHD so YMMV. But you might be able to share a calendar, which is what I was getting at!

          With routine tasks, I’ll set reminders on my personal calendar to recur – and to remind me in advance (for example, I need to approve time cards at a specific time, so I set that as an appointment and a reminder for the business day before).

          (I primarily use the Outlook apps, so I’m most familiar with that. My organization uses 365, so I’ll use the web client on occasion.)

        2. Jill March*

          First of all, jedi hug from a fellow CA reader, avoidant, overthinking, anxious person. I will probably always struggle with this type of stuff, but here are some things that have helped:

          What is your preferred method of communication? When I was a contractor (and hard to find during regular 9-5 business hours {spoiler alert: I was sleeping}) I added a note to my email signature that reminded people the best way to get a hold of me. I don’t have that email anymore, but it was something like:
          First Name Last Name
          Position | Company
          For urgent requests, please text me at [number].
          (Then I’d make sure my phone was on and turned up during business hours.)

          My team also had a shared document with everyone’s contact info along with notes on how best to get a hold of someone if something was urgent. This may work better if you don’t want your contact information sent out to everyone you email.

          Along with my therapist, I started to track when I had a strong urge to avoid contact. I started to recognize some patterns which helped me solve them the best I could before they occurred. Do you usually send your update email Friday afternoons? Maybe write a draft of it on Thursday night (or whatever day/time you are typically in a better mind space). Then on Friday, you just need to look it over and click send.

          I am a bit embarrassed to admit the last thing, but it was very helpful. I got extremely anxious when I needed to check my email when I knew that my boss had likely emailed me. So I had my sister check it for me. She read it over, assured me that it was fine, then handed me the phone and I was able to read it. (It was always fine. My boss was nice, but my jerk-brain did not operate on conventional logic.) Do you have a close friend that could help you with some of the small tasks?

          Most of all, be nice to yourself. Like other commentators have said, a lot of people have similar problems and we are always are worst critic. When you do something that is hard for you, even if you think it shouldn’t be hard or isn’t a real accomplishment, congratulate yourself and acknowledge the victory.

        3. HappySnoopy*

          Even easier. Usually outlook has calendar you can share look on the button bar at top of calendar function.(even if just a read only access). I have it for team members and some of mgmt. It may work since outlook is something you usually have open. You can set task reminders with a berp to remind yourself to update daily/weekly. Anything like dr appt just set to private or just list it as out/off.

        4. Fortitude Jones*

          If you and your manager give one another access to each other’s Outlook calendars (change your settings), then you can see exactly what’s written for appointments on the calendar.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Ha! This thread didn’t have any responses before I hit post (or at least I didn’t see them since I just got off a plane) – disregard since your workplace seems to have disabled that feature.

    5. JessicaTate*

      I used a weekly email, first thing Monday morning, to the pertinent people who needed to know (managers and key colleagues). Subject: “JT’s Week”. If it wasn’t just “In as normal all this week,” I’d list out each day and where I planned to be / when I planned to be in that day. So:
      Monday- in office, normal schedule [or list hours, if not a normal schedule]
      Tuesday – in late, around 11:00
      Wednesday & Thursday – traveling to Client X
      Friday – working from home, normal schedule

      Then I might add a quick list of the major projects/tasks I was planning to focus on that week.

      It worked to make it routine, do it once for the week, and everyone had a reference they could look to when they didn’t see me at my desk. It did require pre-planning, not just “today I feel like staying home,” but that can be good to combat (misplaced) guilt. You’re saying, “This is my schedule. I’ve thought it through. It follows the policy. If there’s a problem I’m missing, you will tell me and I will adjust.” Work at home days or flexed schedules are purposeful, not just a whim.

      1. Some Sort of Management Consultant*

        I like that a LOT! Easy, concise and informative! I think I might find it easier to speak of what I will do rather than recounting what I did or didn’t do.

    6. Policy Wonk*

      Prepare a weekly activity report for your boss that can be shared with others as needed. Up top a summary of your main projects and where they are, below a schedule of upcoming important meetings. You could also add a column on which days you’ll be in. The first one or two will be hard, then it will become second nature. You just have to update the existing items, delete completed items, add new ones. Depending on your office culture either provide it Monday to set the tone for the week or Friday to recap the week. This worked for me in a previous job.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      Can you use automation to “grease the skids”?

      I don’t know if Outlook still does this, but can you queue a draft email to recur once a week, or however often you need it? Or maybe do it as a recurring task that you can drag over to create an email.

      It would have the basic body text already in it with the bullet points/topics you need to cover. Then it automatically pops up, you update it, and hit send.

      Then immediately give yourself a small reward to help train the habit. I’m ADHD too, and rituals & rewards are sooooo important in getting habits to stick. Like, if you can associate it with an existing habit (first cup of coffee, or whatever), it will stick better.

      The less deciding or remembering you have to do, and the more seamless it is, the better.

    8. EinJungerLudendorff*

      I also have this issue and it is so frustrating to deal with. It turns ehat should be a minor issue into big problems and buckets of stress for seemingly no reason whatsoever.

      I don’t have any perfect solutions, but it often helped me to remind myself that my bosses and coworkers probably consider this a non-issue or minor inconvenience at best.

      It also helps me to switch the perspectives and imagine how much I would care if someone worked from home/asked me a question/etc.

      As for updating your bosses and coworkers specifically: I know the pain! To me it feels like putting your (obviously incompetent and insufficient) work on full display and proving to everyone just what a failing charlatan you truly are.
      What often helps me with those thoughts is to reframe these (imaginary) flaws as a problem to be solved, and how I would process their feedback and improve my work to their satisfaction.
      Conveniently, this also forces my brain to try and define said flaws, which often puts their overinflated importance and impact back into a realistic perspective.

      It might also help to remind yourself that they want and need that information, and that you are actively helping them with their job by giving them that information.

        1. DerJungerLudendorff*

          Oh yes! I had deja vu’s and flashbacks all the way through your posts!

          But it sounds like you’re managing to do your job well despite that, so great work on that!
          Hopefully we’ll can one day convince our brains to stop sabotaging us for no reason, but until then, good luck!

          P.S. I don’t know if you have good resources on ADHD, so I thought I’d suggest a few.
          I’ve found Dani Donovan and Eryn Brooks to be excellent at explaining and finding solutions for common ADHD problems and thought processes. They helped me recognize and place a lot of behaviours and habits that I didn’t even realize were part of ADHD and just assigned to some broad personal flaw (which was unhelpful to say the least).

          1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

            I LOVE both of them!!! They really cut right to the heart of the matter.

    9. CM*

      It sounds like the issue is mostly that you only feel safe at work when you’re hiding and you think that, if people can see what you’re doing, there will be negative judgement about it. So, it’s not that you don’t remember to tell people stuff, it’s that, when the time comes, you get scared and can’t overcome your fear.

      Without knowing the situation or your managers, I can’t promise that you have nothing to be afraid of. But it might be worth finding someone you trust, or a counselor who you can talk it over with to figure out whether your fears are rational and then develop a strategy for how to manage your anxiety either way.

      There have definitely been things in my life that I haven’t been able to do because I just get super scared when it comes time to do them, even if it doesn’t make sense, and I’ve never found a magic way to push through it. Sometimes I have some luck breaking the task down into such tiny steps that they each take 2 seconds to do, and then, once I get started, it’s not as bad. So, step one of “write a scary email” is “open the email program and walk the f–k away until I’m feeling calm again.”

      This suggestion won’t please your managers, but you could also try practicing writing these messages without any intention to send them. Just to see what it feels like to go through the process of drafting the email or progress report. And then gradually work your way up to sending it.

      But this is where I think someone like a counselor might be more helpful in coming up with strategies.

    10. Quandong*

      I think you may really benefit from working with a therapist to help cast off your impostor syndrome.

      In addition, please consider seeking support and advice specifically for people with ADHD and/or other brain things that affect executive function and organization.

      Flexible jobs can be wonderful for many people but the lack of structure and routine can be diabolical for those with ADHD.

      You deserve help and support, and you have nothing to be ashamed of.

      Does your employer have an EAP that you can access? Have you been to therapy in the past or worked with a professional to come up with strategies to use at home and at work? If not, it’s definitely worth looking into.

  20. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

    Need some good job getting vibes, please! My job has a hard end date in August and I’m starting to worry about other prospects. I work in a field where jobs are difficult to come by in my region (think llama wrangling when state legislatures want to ban llamas). I have one iron in the fire that would be an amazing opportunity, but it’s been two weeks since my initial phone interview and I haven’t heard anything yet. Fingers crossed, please!

  21. Cranky Neighbot*

    Can I get a reality check? My cube neighbor is lowkey driving me nuts. Here’s what he does:

    – Things that are our boss’s business, not mine: comes in late (past the limits of our role’s flexibility), breaks the dress code, takes personal calls at his desk 2-3 times a day.
    – Talked about horror movies (cool, I love them) and then said he’d kill himself if SHTF in real life. I’ve been affected by suicide and he just seemed so bluntly flippant, like he legitimately did not see suicide as more than a hypothetical. Do I make sense here? Am I being too sensitive?
    – Participated in a fundraising thing but weaseled out of paying. $2. Think of someone eating bake sale cookies without paying.
    – Posted a photo of a client in group chat to make fun of him.

    Am I letting little things bother me too much? Only the last of these seems serious to me, but honestly, they’re all bugging me. What should I do?

    2. JokeyJules*

      1. just ignore it, being frustrated with that stuff will only create resentment which is like punching yourself in the face because you’re mad at someone else. just let it go
      2. If he makes flippant remarks about suicide, just look at him and say “wow, what a thing to make a joke about. i’d appreciate it if you didn’t.”
      3. Another thing not worth staying upset about. I’d just write him off as kind of a tool and keep it moving and professional.
      4. report that to your boss, wildly inappropriate.

      Remember – paying attention to those things and staying frustrated about them will only make your day worse, and will not affect him at all. Just let the little things go.

      2. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Screenshot that client-mocking post and tell management. If you have different managers, tell yours and ask how to tell his. It’s completely out of line and you are right to be uncomfortable about it.
        The rest is gravy on the inappropriate-co-worker cake.

      3. Jules the 3rd*

        Yeah +1.

        Kinda surprised you’re putting ‘breaks the dress code’ in the same list as ‘posted a clients photo to mock them’ – one of these things is not like the others.

    3. DaniCalifornia*

      I would let the little things go (as much as they add up) like the coming in late and dress codes. And maybe even the fundraising thing if it happens again. Has he only brought up the killing himself once? Or is it recurring? If recurring you could say something like “Oh I prefer not to talk about suicide at work.” and if he presses you can say “That’s personal” if you feel okay with saying that.

      I’d definitely call him out about the photo of the client in a group chat. And if he didn’t delete it/realize he was wrong, I’d find a way to talk to your boss about it.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      You’re at BEC stage, he sounds annoying and I wouldn’t like him either probably but yeah, these are just annoying little garbage things that other people doing it probably would be less terrible to you!

      Minus the client mockery, that’ stuff I would screenshot and report.

      Also make a note he needs to pay up front for future fundraising events if you’re in a place to do so. You only get one freebie.

    5. Same Girl*

      I have a work mate who, when she gets frustrated by the incessant demands here, will complain and make the motion of shooting herself in the head. Which is how a relative of mine died. She doesn’t know this though, so I don’t say anything. But I flinch every time. I’m sorry.

      1. Cranky Neighbot*

        Holy shit! I’m sorry. My coworker’s comment was broadly similar to that.

    6. Megasaurusus*

      I agree with everyone else, but I’d add that it’s always okay to not be a co-worker’s friend. You just have to be civil and professional and respond to work-related conversation. You can ignore this co-worker and focus on your work. Noise canceling headphones are great, phrases like “sorry, can’t chat, I really have to work on X right now” etc.

      Don’t rent this guy space in your head, busy yourself with your job, let your managers know of any outright violations, like making fun of a client, but otherwise, leave it to others to see the person for who they are. Bring your focus back to you and your work and the only thing you can control: your own actions.

      1. Cranky Neighbot*

        Good advice. Everyone else already did see it, I think. I was friendly to him because I thought he was the fun kind of quirky when we met. Keeping things distant and professional sounds good.

    7. CM*

      Posting the photo wasn’t cool. The rest of it sounds like you’re just different people with maybe incompatible personalities.

      FWIW, we don’t know what his history is and not everyone who’s had experiences with suicide (either people they know or attempts they made themselves) reacts in the same way. Some people hold it as a sacred thing that you can never joke about and some people don’t. Neither reaction is wrong in itself.

      1. Cranky Neighbot*

        That’s a good reminder and I agree 100%. I even like jokes a lot of the time – outside of work, with people who have a similar background and similar sense of humor. Unfortunately, he wasn’t joking; a joke gone wrong might be easier to get over. He said the same callous thing like three or four times.

        You’re right about our personalities being somewhat mismatched. I’ll try to remind myself of that. And I’ll be talking to our manager about the photo.

  22. Lucette Kensack*

    Is it appropriate to hang a print of Lincoln in Dalivision in my cube? I’m 99% sure it’s fine in my work context… but it does include a prominent nude.

    Link in a comment, which will take a minute to get through moderation.

    2. government worker*

      Eh, I wouldn’t. You know your workplace better than I do, but however artful, I generally think you should avoid nudes at your cube.

    3. Painting*

      That would be really inappropriate at my workplace and I’m struggling to figure out a workplace that it would be appropriate in. There’s tons of other art that would be fine without question – I’d pick another print.

    4. infopubs*

      I wouldn’t do it. Unless you work in an art gallery or a doctor’s office, depictions of nude humans at work are inappropriate.

    5. Quinalla*

      Not something I would hang up at work since it has the nude in it. Just not appropriate. Could be exceptions if you work for an art museum or something, but otherwise seems inappropriate.

    9. Jadelyn*

      Lord no, do not hang that at work! Unless you work literally at an art gallery or design firm or something. In any other place, no, that’s wildly inappropriate at work, no matter how artsy the nude, it’s still an image of a naked person, which nobody should have to contend with at work.

    10. Manon*

      Based on the comments was expecting it to be much racier. In an informal/artsy enough workplace I think it could be okay but you’re probably the only one here who can make that call.

      1. Arjay*

        I can see it both ways, lol, but this wouldn’t have me clutching my pearls. I guess it might depend on the location, size of the print, and size of the cubicle. Mixed in with other images, I wouldn’t think anything of it. But I wouldn’t put it where it could turn into, “You’re looking for Lucette? Turn left at the naked lady!”

        1. Jadelyn*

          I just want to be clear that I doubt most of us saying “no” are “clutching our pearls” over it. There’s a difference between “I personally find this offensive/inappropriate/whatever” and “regardless of my own feelings I don’t think this is appropriate for a workplace.”

          I work in HR. This is not appropriate for a workplace setting. I don’t have any personal issues with artistic nudes, and I rather like the print itself, but that doesn’t make it appropriate for the workplace. There just…shouldn’t ever be naked people in the office, real or artistic, unless you’re a doctor’s office or something.

    11. Beth*

      Absolutely not. In the workplace, it is not just a piece of art with a nude image: it’s also a sexualized image of a naked woman. You will never be able to control how people see it, and just one person who sees it as the second view is one person too many in a workplace.

    12. Policy Wonk*

      Recommend against. It depends on size of the picture, but if it is bigger than a post card you could get complaints.
      True story, a friend of mine was accused of creating a hostile work environment because he put a framed picture of himself and his wife from his beach vacation on his desk. In said picture his wife was wearing a skimpy bikini.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        I would argue that posting a picture of your* wife in a skimpy bikini at work demonstrates even worse judgement than art with a nude image. Not because the image is inappropriate, but because it’s incredibly violating to put his wife’s body on display to anyone who walks through the office.

        *meaning the general *you*, not you specifically

        1. Close Bracket*

          For all we know, said friend asked his wife before putting the picture up. Besides, it was a beach picture. Everybody on the beach saw her in that bikini. There’s a big difference between putting up a picture of your wife in a bikini from a public moment and putting up a picture of her in lingerie taken in your home even if the same square inches of skin are visible. The latter is putting her on display. I would argue that the former is not.

          I do think a photograph of someone not too many degrees of separation removed from one’s coworkers shows worse judgement than a painting of an art model they will never meet, though. There are definitely co-workers who are not going to want to see that much skin, especially on someone they have met or could meet, in a photo on somebody’s desk, regardless of whether it was taken on a beach or somewhere else.

  23. Jobs with low demand on interpersonal skills?*

    I have been in a field with a high demand for interpersonal communication skills for my entire career. I AM good at it – but, I find it exhausting. Navigating weird personalities, conflicts, basically everything that people write in to AAM about. I can do it, but I don’t like it. I’m wondering, are there certain professions out there that require much less interpersonal interaction? I think I may want to take my career in a new direction and find a job where I can focus more on “the job” itself (completing tasks, etc) and not be so distracted all the time by office drama.

    1. alphabet soup*

      Software development? I was a non-tech person on an IT team, and anytime I got frustrated with a dev for being rude or difficult to work with, I got the “but they’re a developer! they don’t need to have social skills!” excuse from other folks.

      1. Art!*

        Seconding this. I have a friend who’s a software dev and at his workplace, he is BELOVED because he fastidiously stays out of all office drama.

      2. Antisocial Dev*

        This is one of the reasons I became a developer. I’d much rather deal with code than the public. There’s still interpersonal stuff necessary, but it’s more dealing with people internal to the company rather than clients or the public.

    2. Mimmy*

      This has been my quandary as well. My supervisor is always telling me how much my students love me and I do enjoy connecting with them. However, it can also make me anxious–what are the new students going to be like? How am I going to handle X situation?

      I’m always thinking that I should do more project-oriented work but sometimes revert back to wanting to work directly with people.

      I get it and will definitely be following this thread for others’ suggestions.

    3. Even Steven*

      If you have the training & would enjoy a fill-in-the-dots, linear kind of day job, I would suggest accounting – we bean counters in private companies (especially large ones) rarely work collaboratively. Usually we each are given our projects, we put on our earbuds & we crunch numbers. It is bliss for this introvert nerd!

      That said, unless you are managing a lighthouse, the odds are good that you will still interact with the odd human, both literally & figuratively. I still have to talk to my manager and occasionally colleagues about project next steps. But the sustained customer-service kind of interaction is unheard of in most of the accounting roles I have had.

      To illustrate the serene introversion- we recently had a big company dinner in a ballroom downtown, 500 people. Loud, raucous, except for our two accounting department tables. I looked around the room during dinner, and while there was lots of conversation and visiting at other tables, we bean counters were all just silently eating, staring off into space. I have found my people.

      1. Koala dreams*

        That has not been my experience, I expected accounting to be more quiet work but I find there is a lot of client interaction in accounting. It’s quite different from typical customer service in that an account has a set amount of clients and builds a connection to them. So I guess that’s an advantage if you want less interaction as in less people you need to interact with.

        1. Even Steven*

          Perhaps in public accounting that is true, but in private accounting, as in accounting for a large company, the only so-called clients are the end users of your reports who are also in the company – like branch managers, C-level execs, etc. I don’t have any clients to speak of, except them if that is what you consider them to be, and only rarely do they contact me – usually to answer the odd questions from managers who want a line item clarified. Most weeks I don’t talk to anyone. Pretty cool.

  24. Anonysand*

    A bit of happy news this Friday… After feeling a little down about my yearly review not being rated quite high enough (or so I thought) a couple weeks back, I got notice of my raise information this morning and it was a half a percent higher than I expected! Not a huge bump in the scheme of things, but happy nonetheless since my previous jobs didn’t include annual raises and I wasn’t expecting much since we’re a nonprofit. Sending out a big thanks to the AAM community for helping me land a job that I truly enjoy and wouldn’t have gotten without all the wonderful advice here.

    1. Anonysand*

      Also, in a fit of mid-twenties rebellion, I dyed my hair a teal/green this week and everyone loves it- even my VP and the HR ladies who often come through our suite. I really do love working here!

      3. Dasein9*

        (Teal sounds great. If you like mixing it up, try Manic Panic’s Electric Lizard: shocking green and it’s lasted and lasted!)

        1. Anonysand*

          I actually used MP Enchanted Forest a long time ago that stuff stuck around so long I had to dye over it! This round I used Arctic Fox Aquamarine and it came out beautifully. I’m really excited about the results.

      4. Canonical23*

        yesssss! I just went back to my original color from teal. It’s such a fun color.

  25. NC*

    Just got rejected from the third job at which I was a ‘top candidate.’ My job here where I live is over, my lease is over July 31 and I want to get out of this state, and I have no idea what to do. As a policy attorney my options are limited. I guess just move to DC and look for work while unemployed…which is exactly what I did after graduating college?

    Finding work is terrible.

    1. Tigger*

      I feel you. Looking for a job while unemployed in DC is hard. Do you have friends and family in the area to stay with? That helped me so much.
      Good luck!

    3. Tired DC Resident*

      Agreed.

      And speaking as someone with a Master’s Degree who has been temping for almost 2 years, don’t move to DC without a job lined up. The policy market is messed up.

  26. A Simple Narwhal*

    Thoughts on changing your last name at work?

    I just got married, and I’m taking my husband’s last name. I’ve already started the arduous legal process, but I’m wondering if I should do it at work. I’m not exactly new to the workforce (almost 10 years) but I’m not so deeply established that I would be abandoning my “brand”. I know it’s easy enough to make the distinction of having two last names in your career, but part of me is hesitating.

    Thoughts?

    1. Anonysand*

      Honestly, changing it in the workplace it can be really easy to switch. The hardest thing I came across was getting my email address changed, and that was more of a system problem (not built for changing the email details after creation) than anything else.

      1. Anonysand*

        I should have also added: it made things easier so that I didn’t have to deal with two different names in general. I switched to my now-married name because it was shorter and easier to spell/pronounce than my maiden name, and I didn’t want to have to deal with some people knowing me as Anonysand Maiden vs Anonysand Married.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        This. I did a name change at work, and found it a pretty seamless process. They couldn’t change my email address itself, but they attached a new name to it so it would show as “Boochie Flagrante [jane.smithATcompanyDOTcom]” NBD.

      3. A Simple Narwhal*

        That makes sense! It doesn’t look like it will be that hard to actually accomplish, I think I’m still getting used to the idea of changing my name (and grappling with guilt and weirdness and generalized angst at the patriarchy) and was wondering if it is worth it to do professionally.

        This is pretty new still so I’m sure I’ll feel differently as time goes on.

        1. Quinalla*

          I changed my name after getting married before I started my career, so it was easy for me, but I’ve seen several women go through it and it honestly isn’t a big deal to change your name. Sometimes the IT parts are the most challenging.

          That being said, I would never change my name again without a damn good reason. The whole process of changing it on all the bills, bank accounts, etc. is a huge pain :) I wouldn’t say I regret changing my name, but there are times I wish I hadn’t changed it, damn patriarchy :)

          1. Keanu Reeves's Patchy Beard*

            The paperwork was honestly a huge part of why I didn’t change my name , as well as the fact that my husband’s surname is a bit boring and mine is cooler. 8)

          2. Angwyshaunce*

            My wife refused to take my last name, on principle. I fully supported that decision.

      4. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        IT should be able to sort the email thing with an alias. I got married over 7 years ago and there are still background emails sent to WonderingMaiden@work.com.
        Incidentally, there’s a lady in my office who got married six months ago and just signs off her email as Jane Married (neé Maiden) while we get the hang of her new name.
        (There’s also another woman in my office who has been Maiden to Married to Divorced-and-back-to-Maiden to Married v2. That one got a bit confusing.

    2. Tigger*

      My Friend who has been married twice has a very established brand and she used a transition method.

      After her divorce, she went professionally by Jane Married Name Maiden Name while having her email JANEMAIDEN@ABC.COM. After a few months, she dropped the married name. Then after she got remarried she went by Jane Maiden Name Married Name. People caught on very quickly

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      Thanks for your advice everyone! I think there isn’t really a good reason for me not to proceed with the name change at work, I’m just feeling weird about it, and that’s something I’ll just have to work through.

      1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

        It’s totally up to you, and it’s also just fine to wait to change your name at work until you’ve adjusted to the new name (or had time to decide whether you want to change it at all). I had a friend who didn’t get around to the legal name change for like 8 months after getting married, so it’s really not that uncommon to make the switch months (or heck, even years) later.

      2. ten-four*

        We didn’t legally and professionally change our names for years (we both hyphenated) because we both had a lot of feelings to work through on names and patriarchy and the general weirdness of things. If you want to start out by changing socially and put a pause on changing at work you totally could! Some women just choose to stick with a social name and a professional name. Maybe you’ll land there, or maybe the weirdness will dissipate and you can make the work switch. Neither the name nor the pace have to be all or nothing!

      3. What’s in a Name*

        My experience: name change at work was relatively easy (and kind of a pain everywhere else).

        The first time I got married, I resisted changing my name, but after about 18 months, I gave in & changed it (no judgement!). It wasn’t a big deal at work.

        After I got divorced, I actually kept my ex’s name because my son was 3 yrs old & I thought it would be easier for him if we had the same last name, plus I just couldn’t deal with the paperwork for changing it everywhere in my life.

        When I decided to remarry, I didn’t want to be married to 1 man but have a different man’s last name… and I really didn’t want to take someone else’s name (but that’s 100% personal decision & I fully support everyone making their own choice about changing/not changing their name!!).

        So upon my remarriage, I went back to my maiden name. The IT folks worked some magic so that I received emails in my inbox regardless of whether they were sent to Jane.Warbleworth @ xyz.com or Jane.Porter @ xyz.com. For a couple of months I signed my emails Jane Porter (formerly Warbleworth).

        It wasn’t even weird when people would see my “new” (aka maiden) name and ask if I got married. I’d pleasantly say “yes, I did! And I decided it was the right time to drop my ex-husband’s last name and go back to my maiden name.” No one even batted an eye at this statement. (I thought it was important to say this so that people wouldn’t address my new husband as Mr Porter in the future —and of course I always introduce him by his first and last names so people know our names are different).

        One thing that made all of this easier: when I took my first husband’s name, I merely appended it on to my full name, such that my maiden name became a second middle name. Think: Jane Elizabeth Porter became Jane Elizabeth Porter Warbleworth (on my social security card, passport, etc) and just Jane Porter Warbleworth (on my driver’s license, bank accounts, etc) and Jane P Warbleworth (on my credit cards).

        When I remarried and dropped Warbleworth, the transition was SO much easier because ALL my accounts, bills, checks etc. already had the name Porter on them. It takes a LONG time to get everything changed (I remarried SIX YEARS ago & I still get mail for Jane Porter Warbleworth).

        One other thing: I REALLY wish I would have included my maiden name as a second middle name in my son’s name. But that’s a different story & also 100% a personal decision.

        Please understand, I strongly feel that every person should do what they feel is right for them. I just want to share my experience in case you find it informative.

    4. Jubilance*

      I changed mine legally (added his to mine so I have 2 last names, no hyphen) but I didn’t change it at work. Mostly cause I didn’t want the hassle of people needing to figure out how to find me.

      It hasn’t been an issue in the office.

    5. Half-Caf Latte*

      Most people I’ve seen who do the name change do this, and the primary means of communication of the change is through the email signature (and email alias if possible).

      Maiden Name: Meghan Markle
      Email signature 6-18mos post wedding: Meghan Markle Mountbatten-Windsor
      Email signature thereafter: Meghan Mountbatten-Windsor

    6. Canonical23*

      I hyphenated (mainly because my husband’s brother and my brother both married women that have the same first and middle name as me, but also general ill-will towards patriarchy) and didn’t have any trouble, apart from now having a ridiculously long email address and cramped business cards. While all the paperwork is a PITA, changing it at work is very easy. A lot of people I’ve worked with usually change over their email ASAP and their signature is Jane Smith (maiden name) for about 2 or 3 months after the switch and it’s never a big deal.

      And I second (third?) everyone that says to wait if you’re hesitating. There’s no deadline on name changing, so you can always wait and see how you feel later down the road.

    7. Lilysparrow*

      The legal paperwork was far more hassle than the practical side of changing it at work.

      On the interpersonal side, I got a lot of faux-feminist rudeness about “erasing my identity”, which was incredibly annoying. But hopefully times & attitudes about names have changed to the point that you won’t need to have eleventy-seven conversations about “Why is the man’s name I was branded at birth more relevant to my identity than the name I choose to share with my life partner?”

      For me, the name change was particularly helpful because my maiden name sounds like a very common surname from an entirely different language/ethnicity. So for years the first conversation I had to have when meeting work contacts in person was always, “but you’re not (ethnicity)!”

      Always. Every single freaking time. Which was both annoying and icky.

      It was a big relief to switch to my husband’s name, which matches the nationality I look like (though also is not the nationality I am).

      Best of luck, I hope your friends & colleagues are less performatively woke, and more genuinely enlightened about names & identity than mine were.

    8. Margaret*

      You probably know if this would apply, but also keep in mind that if you have any kind of certification or legal oversight of your work (e.g., I’m a CPA so governed by a state board), you may be required to use your legal name at work, at least for contact purposes like what’s on your business card and email address. (At one point a coworker got married a month or less after she started working for us, and she asked the state board if she could just get the business cards printed with her married name – nope, she had to use something with her then-legal name for the few weeks that she worked for us with her maiden name, and then have new cards after she was married and had changed her name.)

  27. NewGlassesGirl*

    I am a woman starting a new job in public accounting in the midwest at a very large well known firm. As far as I know my role will involve very little interaction with clients face to face. I did not do an internship and currently have been working in a very casual environment – seriously I wear athelsuire most days. Can anyone in this field give good recomendations for how to dress? I’m worried I will be over dressed. I am working on building up my wardrobe before I start and experimenting different looks at my current office. I do not start until November so I have time. Just a little worried. Thanks AAM community.

    1. Some Sort of Management consultant*

      I’m a Big4 consultant and at least in my country, the formality levels vary incredibly much between different service lines and aren’t necessary related to the amount off client contact.
      I see a lot of people working at our Tax practice who are always in the office with full suits and ties, and many many of my fellow consultants who are full time at clients dress in chinos, neat sneakers and a shirt.

      Anyway.
      How were the people you interviewed with dresses, do you remember?

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      Have you considered reaching out to HR to discuss what their dress code policy is? Another way to figure out dress code could be to look at your new company’s social media platforms to see if there are any office pictures posted that has the staff in them. For whatever reason, LinkedIn seems to be really helpful in this regard as there always seem to be company shots that range from employee appreciation in the office to speaker luncheons to workshops, etc.

    3. Quinalla*

      I know it is awkward, but I would just ask about the dress code prior to starting – maybe just ask if they can send over the dress code information and any other employee handbook materials so you can start reviewing. I’ve had to ask about dress code for certain work activities and it is better to just ask so you don’t end up over or under dressed or having bought a wardrobe that you can’t use.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It may suit you better if you don’t build the wardrobe before you get there. Get a couple staple pieces to get you through the first week or so. That way you can see first hand, since every firm is vastly different. Being unseen may or may not matter to them. Some places who never see clients still want you to dress formally.

    5. Mack*

      I worked in a similar role in Big 4 public accounting in Tax. I wore what I consider basic business casual, black dress pants, black flats, and a nice top every day. Sometimes alternating with a black pencil skirt. This was the norm for our group on daily basis (differing colors or course), dressing in a full suit for certain client visits. Some offices now are becoming more casual, with jeans/khakis as a daily option, so you can always aim for basic business casual and go from there.

      1. NewGlassesGirl*

        Yes, they said the dress code was fairly casual/dress for your day. I think the look you’re describing is what I am planning on wearing for the first week or so.

        1. Mack*

          It is a good midpoint to start and you can gauge how casual/formal things are once you meet coworkers and see how they dress.

          When I first started, I had 2 pairs of black pants, a black skirt, and 6-7 tops. Since you are in an air conditioned office you can probably get away with alternating pants/skirts, and then washing everything on the weekend. It doesn’t take a lot of clothes to get started and you can grow your wardrobe accordingly as you go.

    6. asometimesreader*

      Hi There- I’m in PA in a large midwest city. I’d suggest reaching out to your HR coordinator or recruiter to ask about dress codes. My firm has a dress for your day policy, so we see a large variety of formality in how people dress in the office (from smart casual to business formal). If you spend most days in the office and won’t be client facing, I’d suggest sticking with business casual until you get a feel for how other people at your level dress. In my industry group, most people wear jeans, skirts/dresses, ankle pants. Tops vary from blouses to well fitted t shirts. Admittedly, it’s been a slow slide from business casual to casual for me this year….

      I’d start with having a pair of jeans (darker wash or black with no distressing), black slacks, and slacks in a mid gray. I tend to wear the same 3 pairs through out a season and mix and match with 4-6 different shirts. I’ve built up a good variety of tops and pants via thrifting and sales that I rotate for spring/summer (blues, purples, and pinks) and fall/winter (navy, gray, black, burgundy).

      Also think about how you are going to commute to work and what that means for shoes. I wear tennis shoes or loafers anytime it’s not snowing or freezing (wearing sandals on public transit grosses me out, but many people do). Boots and a change of shoes are required for getting too work in the winter. I don’t get too attached to any of my shoes because slush, salt, rain and questionable fluids on trains happen.

    7. Manon*

      I would first try to clarify your firm’s dress code. I’d also recommend searching on the subreddit Female Fashion Advice: https://www.reddit.com/r/femalefashionadvice/ – there are numerous discussions about how to start an office wardrobe, varying levels of formality, capsule closets, etc. It’s really helpful if you’re mostly starting from scratch.

    8. wittyrepartee*

      I recommend getting some sheath dress basics for now and seeing what’s up once you get there. They don’t look too out of place in anything but the most resolutely formal or informal settings.

    9. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      I do not think athleisure will work, except if you go in to the office on Saturdays and do not see clients at that time, which you probably wouldn’t. You are definitely going to need some suits, either skirt or trouser, whichever you like. Beyond that, your office may well be business casual if your workday permits it. And better overdressed than underdressed, in my opinion! But I do agree with the suggestions to ask HR; I’m sure they wouldn’t be offended at all and the employee handbook probably addresses a dress code anyway.

      1. NewGlassesGirl*

        Right! I would never wear my current leggings and cozy sweaters to an accounting firm. I’m going to reach out about an employee handbook beforehand definitely Thanks!

  28. NB Anon*

    This is a really small question but basically, I’m thinking about coming out as non-binary at work within a few months. I’ve been at my job for less than a year and I don’t know of any other nb/trans coworkers, especially since my department is pretty small, but I’m fairly confident that at the I’ll be supported even if there are bumps in the road.

    My main question is should I go to HR or my manager first? I will be medically transitioning but likely not for at least a year or so. I’m not changing my name but I will change my pronouns. It’s sort of the least of my hurdles most likely, but it’s something I’m just not sure of.

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      What would you be looking for from the conversation with HR?

      My inclination would be to start with your manager unless you’re anticipating unpleasantness that you want HR to be tuned-in and alert for. Talk to your manager, talk to your peers, and loop in HR when it’s time to talk about time off for medical appointments or if people react badly.

      1. NB Anon*

        I guess I just wasn’t sure what exactly I might need to prepare for and how to begin certain procedures (for example, I may list my gender differently than what’s officially on record, if the option is even present outside of M/F). I figured HR could be a good guide in terms of any organizational guidelines or procedures I might not be aware, plus just giving a heads up just in case something goes awry. Thank you for your help!

    2. M*

      When my partner traansitioned last year, he started with his supervisor. They worked out a plan together for notifying the rest of the organization and (because of the nature of the organization) the clients for whom it was relevant. Then HR got involved to help make sure everything like paperwork and insurance and tax forms and email addresses etc. all went smoothly. It went very well. There were some bumps that had to do with legal name changes and legal gender marker changes but those were all external to the company and HR really stepped up in support.

      Congratulations on coming out!!

      1. NB Anon*

        Thank you! This sounds like the kind of path I want to take so this is really helpful to hear. And congratulations to your partner as well, I’m glad he got the support he needed.

    3. Wishing You Well*

      I’d start with HR – assuming they’re good at HR. Still, I’d wait a few more months before announcing anything because you haven’t been there a year yet. You’ll want to be more knowledgeable about your workplace before proceeding.
      Good luck!

      1. NB Anon*

        The reason I’m fairly confident is because my workplace has been explicitly LGBTQ+ friendly and my supervisor even started listing her pronouns in her signature. It’s not guaranteed (it’s a pretty small gesture but I do appreciate it). The main issue I’m worried about is attending a conference and I’m worried about being asked pronouns (it was something I encountered at a different conference) and I have a lot of anxiety over misgendering myself to stay closeted. Plus, I’m somewhat worried saying I use one set of pronouns and then a few months later saying actually I’m nb and use different pronouns is gonna make things harder for me. I realize it’s mostly my own fears and anxieties, and it’s not unbearable, but it’s something that hangs in my head.

        1. Jasnah*

          That’s understandable though, you have this conference coming up where you have to do introductions and you want to be consistent and not confuse people! I think that’s as good a reason as any to start letting people know in your workplace, especially if you know it’s explicitly LGBTQ+ friendly, which is the most important thing you need to know. Good luck!

    4. Gatomon*

      When I came out I started with my boss, who went to HR and the C-suite (smallish company, some policies needed… freshening) for me. I think it’s best to avoid blinding your boss whenever possible, and the first thing HR is probably going to do is loop in your boss so… I’d just start there. If your boss is unsupportive, talk directly to HR. Otherwise your boss can bring HR in for support as needed.

  29. Miss Ames*

    Hi Everyone, I’m a long-time reader, first-time poster. I have been reading a long time, I don’t recall how I happened upon this forum. I have found it enjoyable and education on so many levels, though in a way I felt it wasn’t directly applicable to me because I am not a manager. But things do change over time, as it turns out!! I transferred departments within my organization (higher education) in 2016, and I am now being promoted to a manager after working hard for 3 years. I am participating in my first job search as the person seeking to hire (rather than seeking to be hired), and it is so fascinating to me. So far I love having the experience of evaluating candidates and seeking to hire a new addition to our team. It is going to be exciting to hold interviews.

    1. China Beech*

      The information on AAM isn’t just for people who ARE managers; its a pretty equal mix of that and those who are the direct reports. You can search for the articles by topic of interest to you. Enjoy!

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Congrats on the promotion!

      Hiring can be an extra level of exhaustion once you start the journey, so try to remember that it does get easier as you go through it. It’s the most emotionally draining thing I’ve ever done because you’re dealing with people who may or may not become an ingrained part of your life for quite some time.

  30. Brownie*

    Basing hiring decisions off of thick accents/ease of understanding

    We’re conducting interviews for an IT position that’s not client facing. We’re getting a lot of candidates who grew up outside of the US and so have fairly thick accents despite having been in the US for 5+ years. My boss has decided to rank all the candidates on the basis of how easy they are to understand during the first round of phone interviews and use that as part of the calculation for if the candidates get a second, in-person, interview or not. All the candidates are fluent English speakers, it’s just that some of them have very thick accents compared to others.

    This is setting off orange flags to me with the occasional red thrown in, but I’m having trouble figuring out what exactly it is that’s setting off the flags. Is it whiffs of racial discrimination because most of the candidates are from African countries? Is it bad hiring because accents over the phone are far harder to understand than in person? It all smells, but I can’t figure out which bit is the rotten one. Any tips on examining this issue? I’m not HR, but I do have an ethics and HR person I can go to if needed.

      1. Brownie*

        My boss and grandboss’s opinion is that if the accent is too thick for them to understand easily then the candidate gets rejected because “the ability to communicate” is a requirement for being on the team. They state that the origin of the accent doesn’t matter, it’s the thickness that is the problem, and cite the EEOC laws saying “An employer may not base an employment decision on an employee’s foreign accent, unless the accent seriously interferes with the employee’s job performance.” They say it falls under the latter because the team could not communicate via voice with the candidate. At this point I’m starting to second-guess myself because of the pushback from boss and grandboss.

        1. Ask a Manager* Post author

          He’s ranking them based on how easy their accents are to understand. That’s not complying with the EEOC’s guidance. If it’s “seriously interfering” with their ability to do the work, he can take them out of the running. That doesn’t sound like the situation.

          1. Brownie*

            Thank you, “their ability to do the work” was the bit of phrasing I needed to clarify the situation. If we already allow people to work from locations where they aren’t in voice communication and have no problems with that then voice communication isn’t something that affects their ability to do the work and the job. And based on that and the official job description all candidates should be considered, regardless of accent. Yeah, I need to go talk to HR.

            1. Observer*

              That’s a key issue here. If everyone needs to communicate via voice for a significant proportion of their communications, your boss would actually have a valid point. But if I’m reading you correctly, this is a position where people are communicating primarily in writing. In that case, whether they mean it or not, they WILL get into trouble for discrimination.

              It’s worth pointing out that “ability to communicate” is not necessarily the same thing as “ability to communicate by voice.”

            2. SecondChoice*

              Here’s the thing, though… all positions require – to some degree or another – the ability to communicate clearly. And here in the United States, we are a diverse country by our very nature; by that I mean that you can’t walk into a store or restaurant without interacting with workers who have accents. It’s a fact of life in the year 2019. Unless “speaking in an American accent” is a bona fide requirement of the job (like they’re hiring actors, for example), then they need to figure out how to get over this.

              Now, if your bosses want to explain their “accent thickness scale” to a judge and jury – who either have accents themselves, or come from parents or grandparents with accents, well, I say, good luck to them. I can’t wait to read the cases on all the employment law blogs I follow.

          2. Camellia*

            I, too, work in this kind of shop, and find this question interesting. I was trying to think how to reframe it. So, what if the job required all documentation to be written out by hand, in cursive, and the person’s handwriting was illegible? Would that be a valid reason to reject the candidate?

        2. irene adler*

          I bet an employment law attorney could set them straight on the correct interpretation of this law.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Gurl…

      Are they writing this “ranking system” down? Or is it something they’re just hush-hush talking about and keeping in the hiring group? The spoken stuff is harder to pin someone to the floor for because again as you say, they have something they’re clawing at to try to sweep their discrimination under the rug.

      I would just ping HR about it if you feel like you’re not going to be a target of retaliation or if you’re okay with that outfall.

      1. Brownie*

        They’re writing it down on the candidate scoring sheets, though they’re not actually labeling what the number off on the corner of each sheet is. I’m gonna go talk to HR, this whole thing stinks, especially in light of bosses saying voice communication is a requirement, but contradicting that with existing employees. Around here, for technical positions, HR does nothing with the hiring process (they don’t even have someone sitting in on the interview panel!) so it’s left up to the departments to figure out hiring on their own. And that’s where I’m stuck at, just enough hiring knowledge to smell something rotten, not enough to be able to properly tell my bosses they’re wrong. Time to call in the big guns, HR will straighten them out (hopefully).

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          BAM THEY WROTE IT DOWN.

          That’s enough to get EEOC to start digging around if they want to start lighting people up. You shouldn’t write anything down that you do not want to explain to an investigator. These people are amateurs.

          Yes, please blow the whistle with HR and let them know what these chuckleheads are doing.

          1. Brownie*

            “These people are amateurs.” Every time I read that it makes me laugh because A) that’s exactly what they are and B) the sheer scorn dripping off that is fabulous and wonderful, especially in light of the fact that these people work with security all day long and should very much know better than to write things like that down.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              They want to be true cartoon villains but they can’t grow that much needed evil mustache to twirl. It takes charisma and sneakiness that usually isn’t learned, you need to be born a bad guy!

              And you’re over there foiling their baby-villain plans. Meddlesome kid ;)

  31. Teapot Librarian*

    Hoarder strikes again. He has a long history of missing deadlines by just a day or two. Well, most recently he missed a deadline and justified it by redefining what a week is. (Seriously. “I thought a week was seven working days.”) My boss was totally on board with me putting Hoarder on a PIP. Then our counsel read the policies and interpreted a PIP as a disciplinary action which required more and more recent examples so my boss said I should just give Hoarder a reprimand which doesn’t have the time limitations that more serious discipline actions require. But then she sent me an email saying “I don’t want you taking any action against Hoarder at this time.” So he skates by again with no accountability. It’s been almost four years of this, plus all the years before I was his boss. Sigh.

      1. Teapot Librarian*

        None given in her email. I don’t want to ask over email, so I’m going to wait until I see her next week. (We don’t work in the same building.)

        1. Quinalla*

          Ugh, can you not call her right now? I understand not putting it in writing, but I would want to talk to her immediately. It is ridiculous to have to put up with this kind of thing as a boss without being able to do something!

        2. RandomU...*

          ugh… that sounds like something’s happening in the background. I would wait and see what your boss says, and even then it might be vague.

          1. Teapot Librarian*

            I just re-read her email and there appears to be an underlying “Teapot Librarian, you’re a crappy manager so I don’t trust you to be making responsible manager decisions about this” message.

        3. Commenter*

          At bare minimum, will the current issue still be recorded as “an example” to count towards a PIP if you “don’t take any action” at this time? If what your boss is suggesting would in any way further slow down the process rather than at least help towards building a paper trail, that’s *definitely* a problem!

          I agree it’s worth reaching out to her and pushing back / asking for clarification either way though, but at the very least I hope this incident will help you all start building the necessary proof to get this actually taken care of.

    2. Kathenus*

      Sorry to say I think you have a boss problem, as much – if not more than – an employee one. Best of luck navigating this.

  32. Phoenix Programmer*

    Pet peeve: THERE YOU ARE!
    Said when I get out of the bathroom.
    Or when I am taking a lunch break.
    Or when I return to my desk after back to back meetings.

    So obnoxious. Just ask me your question don’t make a big show that you “found me”.

    1. JokeyJules*

      ugh that drives me nuts!
      Another one is “hey can i please ask you a huuuuge favor please omg it would be so helpful”

      Just. ask. the. question.

      1. Manon*

        It grates on me when people make a huge deal out of little things. Like at my last job my supervisor would thank me profusely for almost every little thing I did. It’s nice to be appreciated but at some point it’s like “Yeah of course I did [thing], that’s what you pay me for.”

    3. Deanna Troi*

      YES! Especially when I come in 5 minutes late due to traffic. My boss doesn’t care, so why do you, coworker who is at the same level as me?

  33. L.S. Cooper*

    I have an interview! Sort of!
    It’s with a consulting firm, so it seems like they’re mostly trying to figure out who I am, and the woman I’m meeting with has been emphasizing that this is casual and not really an interview, but it’s still progress, and I’m mildly terrified.
    I even checked Glassdoor, and nobody said anything about the interviews being particularly technically rigorous, which is comforting, but doesn’t give me anything to practice.

    Is anyone around here a recruiter for a consulting firm, or familiar with the process from the other side? Any tips?

    1. Ali G*

      My husband is an engineer and works in a consulting firm and they always give applicants problems to solve. But that is usually the second interview. I don’t think they do skills during the first interview/meeting. Good luck!

    2. JR*

      What kind of consulting? Are you familiar with case interviews? I would assume this isn’t a case interview since she emphasized it isn’t really an interview, but if they do case interviews at some point, prep specifically for those – they really are something you get better at through practice.

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        It is news because the recruiter did not make sure to hang up the phone before talking about the candidate. I don’t know the laws in Australia, the part that stood out to me was when they talked about how male candidates would not get the same kind of social media scrutiny.

        I do think a candidates social media profile can be used for hiring, but companies should implement strict guidelines on what is and isn’t acceptable. If they do check social media it should apply evenly to all candidates not just female candidates. The news clip did not show the candidates entire social media profile, but what I saw was not shocking, or risque.

        1. Observer*

          Yeah, that bit about her not having been scrutinized that way if she were a guy is POISON here in the US.

    2. Reliquary*

      Is this not a problem under Australian law? Surely gender discrimination in employment is illegal. This voice recording contains proof that this young woman’s social media profile would not have been scrutinized if she were a man.
      She needs to see a lawyer!

      1. WS*

        Yes, gender discrimination is illegal in Australia and has been for nearly 40 years. However, that video comes from one of the big tabloid current affairs shows, so I’m sure that everyone is paying out bit dollars and desperately trying to cover their bums right now.

  35. Cambridge Comma*

    Does anyone have any tips for finding remote opportunities that’s are truly location independent as opposed to US only? It’s often not clear or only clear in the small print where a vacancy is really supposed to be based. I recently spent hours applying to one that had ‘global’ in the title only to find on the 7th page of the application system that global means ‘anywhere in Michigan’ to that company.
    Also, any Europeans who have successfully applied to US remote jobs? Or will US candidates always be preferred?

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          I don’t know the answer. But unfortunately, I can’t see too many jobs being truly global in the remote sense. Even jobs within the US get into some complicated tax implications when the HQ is based in one state the employee works in a different state. I would imagine it would get even more complicated for people working in an entirely different country. Even for some remote positions there might come a time where some travel might be needed. In terms of payment, would you get paid in USD or local currency, who would have to eat the conversion/exchange fees? If you are in a country that can’t easily travel to the US for work it could pose a problem. For those reasons I think most US only companies would probably want to hire US employees.

          But take that with a grain of salt, as I know nothing about it, just my 2 or 5 cents.

          1. TPS Report Coversheet*

            Well, programming is global as we speak. Outsourcing doesn’t really look if it is a company of 1 person or 100 if you need the job done.

            The tax is really not that complicated. You need to declare that you are not an US resident or national. I have this agreement with a freelancer site and they had this whole set of stuff to make sure I wasn’t liable for anything. Basically though you’d sell services like any other contractor, I would use a Ltd.

            As for money with Transferwise and couple other ones you can get an US bank account the money can be wired to. (Sending a check is iffy, well no, cashing them is iffy.)

            1. Jasnah*

              That’s only if the company is looking to outsource or hire a freelancer. It’s different when they’re expecting to hire a regular, full-time employee. Different countries have different requirements about how wages should be calculated and paid, how hours should be tracked, how taxes should be calculated and collected, what legal requirements need to be written down and agreed to… it’s not just a simple matter of “well we could hire a remote worker in Michigan which has tax & labor laws our HR reps understand, or we could hire someone in Singapore and definitely break some labor laws and get this poor person in trouble with our ignorance.”

    2. Lemmy Caution*

      +1
      I’d like to know about the US remote job situation as well. I’m an expert in a very niche toolkit and when I go anywhere, LinkedIn, GlassDoor, Reed, Monster… 90% of the jobs are in USA, and I’m sitting here in the UK like a lemon waiting for a gin. I’ve tried those gig work sites, but very little IT work shows up and it is usually very dodgy so I am probably looking at the wrong places.

    3. BOFH*

      I’d like to know about the US remote job situation as well. I’m an expert in a very niche toolkit and when I go search any jobsite… 90% of the jobs are in USA, and I’m sitting here in the UK like a lemon waiting for a gin. I’ve tried those gig work sites, but very little IT work shows up and it is usually very dodgy so I am probably looking at the wrong places.

    5. MoopySwarpet*

      See if you can find companies that are completely remote. You Need a Budget (YNAB) is one, I think Zappier is another. I’m pretty sure I’ve read about other “no physical location” companies on one or both of their blogs.

      I can’t remember if it was one of those or another, but they had job listings where they wanted people +/- x hours from x time zone because the team they would be working with was predominantly in x timezone or the clients were or whatever.

      There are also a few ESL companies/programs (I think one is called VIPkids) where you teach English to kids in other countries. If I remember correctly, they generally need a bachelor’s degree, computer equipment/internet that can handle the connection, and a willingness to work during certain hours that are local to the student.

    6. Ranon*

      For tech folks remoteintech.company is a starting point. Keep in mind even fully remote companies usually need to have some kind of legal presence or at least paperwork in any country their employees are located in and an understanding of the labor laws in that country, it doesn’t mean they won’t do it for you if you’re an exceptional candidate but you’re much more likely to have an easier time if you’re the third person they’ve hired rather than the first.

    7. TPS Report Coversheet*

      Upwork is, but especially in coding you are always competing with guys from places where the money you ask per hour they ask per day.

    8. Fortitude Jones*

      I work for a software company that has a global presence and lets employees work remotely – I’m fully remote here in the US while the company is headquartered in a completely different state from where I live. I do travel for work, but the travel’s minimal. Check out tech companies with a global presence – they may be your best bet.

    9. Clementine*

      I think Automattic is in this category.
      You may do better to look for jobs listed as remote by European companies.
      Look at Angel List, as many positions there are remote.

  36. Tigger*

    So my boss sent the following email this week to the whole office
    ” let’s have a pizza lunch on Friday. We all have been humping and let’s take a moment to get together.”

    I died. What unfortunate typos have you seen in office emails

    1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      When a coworker was using voice to text and it interpreted “codecs” as “Kotex”.

    2. Lucette Kensack*

      Lol! I don’t think that’s a typo — just a poor choice of slang! “Humping” can be used to mean “working really hard.”

    3. NotMyRealName*

      You mean like the time coworker who meant to say she didn’t want to inconvenience me said she didn’t want to incontinent me?

      1. Art3mis*

        I used to see this all the time. Lotus Notes could not suggest the correct spelling of inconvenience no matter how you tried to misspell it.

      2. PseudoMona*

        I once received an email job rejection that closed with “We apologize for the incontinence”. At least I got a laugh out of that rejection.

    4. DaniCalifornia*

      My boss routinely leaves the o off in hello so it’s usually Hell Client name!

      What could humping have meant? I’m trying to figure it out.

        1. Anathema Device*

          Whaaat? Last I checked it meant something you don’t do at work unless you’re in a Duck club.

        3. DaniCalifornia*

          Oh since the original OP said typo I was thinking the boss meant to type something else and humping came out.

          Yeah…I wouldn’t use that word anywhere near work :D

      2. Ana Gram*

        We use it in law enforcement. When you’re “humping calls”, you’re going call to call and having a busy shift. Weird in an office environment, though…

    5. Kathenus*

      Well, it could have been worse. Boss could have said changed the order to getting together first and humping second…

    6. SarahKay*

      A communication sent out to the (approx 10%) people that work on evening & night shifts with the subject of “Shit employees”. Followed by the sound, from three desks away, of the person who sent it going “No, NO, come back! don’t send….!” to our email programme as he spotted his typo, just too late.

    7. Not In NYC Any More*

      Public often became pubic in my world. I had my spell check set to highlight pubic any time it appeared in my writing – it should rarely come up in the finance world.

      1. AppleStan*

        That is the worst! Especially in government where people talk about their dedication to “pubic service”! I have trouble ever taking them seriously because honestly if you’re working in public service, you should be making sure you don’t type pubic service OR setting an autocorrect to catch that.

        I’m tolerant of a typo here or there, but that one just boils my potato.

    8. Dusty Bunny*

      Early spell check program consistently corrected client’s last name to Wombat. He received several memos and invoices addressed to Mr. Wombat before we realized it. I still find it amusing.

      1. Other Duties as Assigned*

        I once met with a software vendor who was touting the features of one product line. He said it had spellcheck, and had learned to live with it correcting his first name (Olaf) to Oaf.

      2. WS*

        I had a friend whose surname was “Teh”. She never, ever received correct correspondence.

    9. Miss Fisher*

      My one huge pet peeve is that so many people spell manager as manger. It drives me crazy. Also, we have a campus wide email that goes out every so often. for years it has been titled capus header instead of campus. It drives me crazy.

      1. RobotWithHumanHair*

        I’ve gotten resumes where manager is spelled like that. Multiple times on the same resume.

    10. Ella P.*

      Not in an email, but someone got a unicorn cake for someone’s birthday and my very conservative boss was helping slice pieces.. I get my turn and she says:

      Here Ella, have some of the @ss…

      …………

    11. PseudoMona*

      Not an office email, but a text from my manager mentioning that stripper season was starting soon.

      He’s really into fishing and his phone autocorrected striper to stripper.

    12. Alli*

      My favorite was an email that said “sorry for the incontinence” instead of “sorry for the inconvenience.” :-)

  37. Lucette Kensack*

    This is hypothetical – I don’t manage anyone at the moment – but based on past experience and observations of my current colleagues, both peers and folks senior to me.

    What should a manager do if they know they could “do better” by replacing an employee with someone stronger?

    What I mean is this: say you have a perfectly average employee. She meets her goals, does adequate work, doesn’t cause problems, etc. But she doesn’t go above and beyond, her deliverables are acceptable but not inspired, she’s not pushing the organization forward. She earns a “meets expectations” on her performance reviews. She’s average.

    But, given the current market in your field/region/etc., you are confident that if you opened a hiring process for her role you could hire someone better. Your employee may have been the best choice when you hired her, but the market has changed (say, a large local employer laid off half their staff and there are suddenly a bunch of talented people looking for work) and she wouldn’t be competitive in an open process now.

    What should you do?

    1. ArtK*

      Leave it alone! There’s a lot of disruption involved with getting rid of someone and hiring someone new. First, how do you fire someone who isn’t a bad performer? “Sorry, we think we can do better?” That would be a morale-killer for the rest of your employees. Second, you’d be taking a chance. You might do better, or you might not. You could find someone who looks stronger on paper but turns into a nightmare.

      TL;DR: The upside isn’t certain and the downside could be very bad.

      “If it ain’t broke, don’t ‘fix’ it!”

    2. Ask a Manager* Post author

      I think it really depends on context: Is she “good enough”? What kind of results is she getting — decent ones or middling ones? Is she coachable? What other positive traits does she bring to the organization? And also, what kind of work do you do? If it’s a cause-oriented nonprofit, you have more of an obligation to your mission to hire the absolute best people you can to get the best results you can. Depending on the answers to all of these questions, it could go either way.

      But you wouldn’t just fire her in any case — you’d say “the needs of the job have changed and this is what I’m looking for now” and you’d lay out new goals and coach her and give her some time to see if she can stretch to meet the new bar. Who knows, maybe if you set clear goals for her and coach her, you’ll be surprised.

      Also, though, it needs to be really true that you’ve raised the bar for the role. It can’t be that there’s one good person out there who you’d love to hire instead of her. There will always be one person you can find who’s better and you can’t fire people every time you spot one — it needs to be that the bar has genuinely changed.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      You don’t fire someone for meeting your goals. You change the goals. If you want 37 pieces of flair, ask for 37 pieces of flair. Don’t fire her because you tell her 15 pieces is the minimum, and she wears 15 pieces.

      2. Lucette Kensack*

        That’s a useful frame!

        But… the results are the same, right? (Assuming that the employee doesn’t/can’t meet the new goals — which is obviously an assumption, but that’s the hypothetical that I’m playing with.)

        1. Anathema Device*

          No, they really are not. One situation tells the person what you actually want and one punishes them for doing what you say you want.

        2. Rusty Shackelford*

          No, I wouldn’t say the results are the same. Right now she’s (hypothetically) performing at the level she believes is adequate. If you tell her that level is no longer adequate, she might kick it into a higher gear. Or she might not, but she will at least have been given the message and the opportunity to act on it.

        3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          I would add that it’s quite likely that CurrentEmployee would ramp up faster and more efficiently than NewEmployee, since CurrentEmployee already understands the systems/processes/organization.

          So setting more stretch goals (which is probably a good idea for most employees, at least in professional work) in general is a good way to help employees grow.

    4. Dust Bunny*

      Has it been made clear to her that her employer wants more? It hardly seems fair if her bosses have been acting like “meets expectations” is good enough, but haven’t been telling her they want something else.

      1. Lucette Kensack*

        This isn’t a specific person or situation. Just musing about how you would handle something like this.

        1. Anathema Device*

          Honestly, I’m not sure how realistic your imaginary scenario is.

          There’s room in most companies for both rockstars and solid performers. Someone dependable who meets expectations is a valuable employee. And as a manager, your job is partly to develop the employees you have, and to help them to develop the skills and qualities you would like them to demonstrate. You seem to be asking if you can replace staff instead of managing them.

    5. Lucette Kensack*

      Yikes, I wish I could rewrite the phrase after the dash — it looks like I’m implying that my current colleagues are examples of folks who are “just average.” I meant to say that the question is based on my past experience and my observations of other (past and current, peer and senior to me) folks who manage others. Sheesh, self.

    6. WellRed*

      So I feel like this could be me right now. I haven’t had any sort of raise in eight years, there is no path for promotion, my workload increased and our new corporate overlords have indicated they want to see a 25% increase in our revenues, but they are not investing a dime in staffing or infrastructure.
      So, to maintain my sanity while I figure out my next steps, I am not going to go above and beyond except where it suits me.

    7. JamieS*

      If I’m understanding correctly the job expectations haven’t really changed so she’s still meeting expectations but you’d be looking for someone who exceeds expectations. Many people, I’d guess most, meet expectations set for them but don’t put in extra labor to go beyond. Basic thought process of “these are my goals” and that’s what they focus to achieve and are satisfied when they do. So with that in mind, I’d keep her and start setting higher expectations for everyone in the role and then reassess.

      More broadly it’s just bad management to fire someone every time you think there will be someone better. For one thing there’s no guarantee the replacement will be better and for another employees aren’t going to ever try to go above and beyond if the company’s M.O. is to dump them soon as the next metaphorical pretty young thing crosses their path. After all, there’s always someone who’s better in some way. Not to even get into t having to constantly hire, train, and assimilate the new people.

      1. dealing with dragons*

        but it’s not really “exceeding” expectations – she’s actually not meeting expectations. it’s just no one told her the goalpost shifted.

        1. JamieS*

          No the OP states she’s meeting the expectations set forth for her. The hypothetical is Employee A is meeting expectations but Potential Candidate B could plausibly be better.

          If your job sets expectations for your role against which your measured and you meet those expectations they can’t just secretly change the expectations, not tell you, and then say you didn’t meet your goals. Well I guess technically they can but that’s a toxic lousy employer. No half-way decent employer would do that.

          1. dealing with dragons*

            if you’re “meeting expectations” but actually they want you to be “exceeding expectations”, then you’re not actually meeting their expectations.

            1. JamieS*

              I’m not going to continue to go back and forth with you on this. This is not a difficult concept. The OP stated the hypothetical employee met the expectations the company laid out. If they changed the expectations then they need to tell their employees. It’s not reasonable to tell employees one set of expectations and then judge their performance against another set of secret expectations.

              This would be like if you hired a contractor to redo your kitchen, secretly wanted them to also do your bathroom but didn’t tell them, and then at the end claimed they didn’t do their job properly because they only worked on your kitchen. It’d be ridiculous behavior.

              1. dealing with dragons*

                I’m not trying to go back and forth with you – I don’t think you’re understanding what my point is. My point is if someone is meeting expectations, but ideally they should be exceeding them, then that meets your criterion of changed expectations. The company is expecting someone to exceed their expectations, thus meeting those expectations means exceeding.

                Your last statement is exactly what I’m saying. In this person’s hypothetical, their employee is redoing the kitchen as was expected of them, but rather than let them know they want them to also do the bathroom as well they’re going to fire them and hire another contractor who will. The original contractor is possibly perfectly capable of doing bathrooms, but it’s not been communicated that it’s an expectation to meet. To me that’s what the original comment reads as.

    8. Willow*

      Unless you work in Lake Wobegon Industries, not all your workers will be above average. And average workers and mediocre workers need jobs (and the accompanying income) just as much as the rock stars do.

    9. Clementine*

      If you don’t have a coverage issue, you can give her a nice severance package and send her on her way Monday. It may have negative office repercussions, but if you feel it’s best for the company, then decide if you want to do that.
      I am not HR, though, so don’t rely on my ideas! Maybe another thing you can do is open a posting for the position with these new aspirational requirements, and invite her to apply for it with everyone else. That is going to be pretty awful while she’s still in the position, though.

      I would try to determine if you really can hire someone for the salary you want to pay who is as superlative as you say you can get. After seeing people try hard for months to do what should be relatively simple hires, I’m not sure it’s as easy as you think.

    10. dear liza dear liza*

      You dream about the possibility of hiring someone who turns out better, but you remind yourself that every person has flaws and challenges and at least you know this person’s strengths and weaknesses. Because rockstars can be assholes, and some are truly great at interviews and terrible as a colleague.

      For years, I had positive impressions of Jane through our professional organization; she was great in committee work, affable in meetings, full of thoughtful ideas.. And then I found out that at her work, she was the Fergusina to end all Fergusinas. You never *really* know what someone is like as a co-worker until you’ve worked with them.

  38. JustJill*

    About 2 years ago, I quit my job to follow my creative dreams! Fast forward to today and let’s just say things haven’t gone as planned. Etsy stores, Amazon, freelancing… I’ve tried multiple ideas and so far, things haven’t taken off quite as I’d hoped. That’s fine, and I’ve come to terms with it, but now it’s time for me to find a job again. I’m going back to the same field I was in before, and I’m honestly not sure what I should do about my resume. Do I leave everything for the last two years off? Will the big gap turn hiring managers off? The alternative is to include some of the creative things I’ve tried, but I don’t really have specific dates, responsibilities that transfer to this field, or anything really to show for it.

    So, what do you all think? Keep the resume gap or try to fill it in?

    FWIW I had sent out a few resumes with the gap and got some call-backs, but things have gotten rather quiet as of late.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      You already have your answer: “Freelancing.” Under that line item, list a few things you were working on or a general description of what you were seeking to accomplish.

      As an example, I had a 3-year gap between leaving a business I was running and entering law school. I held a number of jobs, most of which were at least tangentially related to writing and editing. So I have that item in my resume as “Freelance Writer And Editor.” The bullet points under the title include work during the actual time I was a freelance copy editor, and also a stint as a paralegal (where I was drafting correspondence and court filings).

    2. Elitist Semicolon*

      I’d encourage you to think of that not as a gap, but as a temporary change of field. It may not have been formal work experience, but you did learn something by running your own online stores and freelancing, and that can be valuable.

      For the more practical part of your question, you could reorganize by relevance to positions you’re applying for. “Teapot Grooming Experience” at the top, then “Relevant Experience” with any positions that weren’t specifially in teapot grooming but which overlap with the skill set needed there, then “Freelance Experience” for your creative work. Alternately, you could do “Teapot Grooming Experience” at the top, then “Other Experience” and list your two years outside the office as “Freelancer/Small Business Owner” with bullet points that frame your creative work in terms of the customer (“worked with customers to ensure satisfaction with product” or the like).

    3. TPS Report Coversheet*

      Freelancing is way better than a random gap. And you can elaborate as much or as little as you feel necessary. At one point I was doing short contract gigs so my CV would be 13 pages of random scatter. I just state being a contractor and list the umbrella company that did my payroll.

    4. cmcinnyc*

      I just put my freelancing on my resume. It’s work, it paid the bills, and that’s what I was doing for those years. It’s nothing to hide.

    5. Failed Artist*

      I was in a similar situation, only that I had a 6 year gap.
      I just put some info about my creative pursuits on my resume, saying something like: “Took a break from my career in “Previous Field” to pursue interests in “Creative Field”, and then a brief summary of what I did during those years.

      I’m pretty sure the gap does turn some hiring managers off, but what choice do we really have? It is what it is.
      I got a job in my “Previous Field” again, btw.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Well, you tried to start your own business. That sounds impressive to me. Can you list any skills you have from this time?

  39. Sequoit*

    Anyone have advice about how to develop better off-the-cuff speaking skills in meetings? I do a lot of group work in my position and I’m often expected to respond to an idea, vote on a decision or give feedback about something in the heat of the moment. I usually need alone time to process information, but that’s not always possible in these meetings. My colleagues and I have a good relationship and try to understand what I’m saying–I just can feel their confusion when I talk sometimes.

      2. Sequoit*

        I have relatives who are in Toastmasters and swear by it! I’ll take a look, thanks!

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’ve had great success with Dale Carnegie classes although they can be pretty pricey. Honestly, I’d look to see if there is an improv class you could take through a local theater group.

    3. RandomU...*

      This sounds less about the speaking and more about the processing of information and formulating of thoughts? Am I reading that right?

      If it is, I would try a few things. Yes it’s not always possible to have as much time as we want to process and deliver thoughts. So in those instances like you described (in meetings where decisions or feedback are expected) I’d do a couple of things.

      Ask if there is information that you can review before the meeting (this won’t always be possible), if you don’t have the opportunity to prepare you can take some of the pressure off of you and start with something like “On the surface I think … ” “My initial thoughts are …” “I’d like a chance to noodle over this more, but can say upfront … “.

      One thing this does is takes the pressure off you to come up with the perfect response! Because many times perfection isn’t necessary, dialog and discussion is the aim.

      1. Kathenus*

        This is great advice. Then if you do preface comments with something like ‘initial thoughts’, do then follow up later with any additions or changes you have. If you don’t comment in the moment but think of things later, send those out. Everyone processes information differently. So if the feedback doesn’t actually need to be given that second, letting people know that taking you prefer taking some time to process the information to comment, or add to/amend initial comments, is a great way to be up front to let people know this is how you’ll be communicating.

        1. Sequoit*

          I definitely need to work on my follow-up! It’s definitely a culture of “everyone needs to say something” and so sometimes it feels overwhelming to have thoughts about everything. Maybe I should just focus on one or two important things to follow up on and that will make things easier.

      2. Sequoit*

        Oh, this is great advice! We often work without agendas, so I’ve been pushing for that, which helps! I’m going to try out some of those scripts and see if they help too. Thank you!

    4. Booksalot*

      I’m told that joining an improv group is good for this, though I’ve always thought the idea is a little problematic if you’re taking the spot of someone who genuinely wants to do comedy for the love of it.

  40. Curious About*

    Alison, on Tuesday’s post there was an OP who was concerned her more public dating life would hurt her as a public school teacher. Someone commented who’s job it is to dig into the social media of potential job candidates. They go into a deep dive far beyond the cursory glance and had some helpful tips for the OP on how to keep their life more private.

    I thought the commentator would be an interesting blog post where occasionally you interview people with unique jobs. Why their company dives so deeply? What causes red flags? What weird things have they seen? What’s a common mistake? How to keep your life more private?

    2. irene adler*

      Ya know- I wondered myself what circumstances warranted the “deep-dive”.
      I’d love to understand the “why” behind doing this.

    3. BadWolf*

      And if there’s someone with the same or very similar name that may be confusing (or negative), when/should you include any notes that this other person isn’t you? Like, “If doing online research for my name, you will likely get many hits for a BadWolf that was in the Florida news recently. Please be assured that is not me.”

  41. ArtK*

    I’m giving notice on Monday (has to be July to make sure I have insurance coverage.) Kinda scary.

    I’m thinking about giving two colleagues a heads-up today. Mostly as a courtesy since they’ll be the most affected by my departure.

    1. Professor Plum*

      You only need to wait until Monday. I’d suggest waiting–it’s better to be safe than sorry. It’ll look back on you if word trickles out to your supervisor before you have a chance to give notice.

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I would wait because otherwise you introduce a risk that your news doesn’t wait until Monday.

    3. Auntie Social*

      Do it Monday. Tell them one second before you hand in your resignation, so they’ll know you told them first.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Also consider your (future) relationship with your manager. She might want you to handle letting your colleagues know in a different way. Depending on the context, the business may want to steer the messaging around your leaving.

      Now, if this is a situation where you would be walked out immediately upon giving notice, then the above (probably) doesn’t apply.

      1. ArtK*

        I don’t care about my relationship with my current manager one bit. I’m leaving the market and will have nothing to do with these people ever again. I have a good enough network that I won’t need a reference. As far as steering the message, they’re likely to order me to not tell anyone, which I’m going to ignore. There are people whose jobs are going to be badly affected by my departure and they deserve a chance to prepare. As far as external messaging is concerned, very few of our customers know I exist — but they will know when I’m gone.

        One of my fears is that they will walk me out. People have disappeared suddenly in the past and at least one of the executives is a vindictive bully. That’s why I’m not giving notice until 7/1 (new job starts 7/30 and benefits kick in 8/1).

        1. Observer*

          So wait till Monday. When you are ready to go tell your boss, tell your coworkers and go tell your boss.

        2. Good luck with that*

          If you have any concern about being walked out, you need to forward anything personal (or professionally useful) you have on your work equipment to your personal email or cloud storage *before* you say a word to anyone. Then delete it.
          If you have employment or benefits paperwork in the office, put it in your briefcase or purse. (Is it too late to take it home today?)
          I lost a lot of contact information for my professional organizations (AICPA & state society) once, when they had IT rescind my system credentials while I was still in HR.

          1. ArtK*

            Funny thing… no work equipment! I work from home. The PC I use is my personal one! I’ll be sending them a backup disk of whatever belongs to them, but otherwise they can’t touch this. Long history to this but the bottom line is that they blew the transition from the previous owners of the product and didn’t figure out all of the equipment issues. I raised some of this during the transition and got a patronizing “don’t worry, the adults will take care of everything” response. Another reason I want to leave this place: I’ve been through several M&A and have 36+ years of experience in the business and they can’t be bothered to even take my issues seriously.

    5. On Hold*

      Yeah, I agree with everyone else – as someone who just did this (told before giving formal notice), once it’s out of your control it’s truly out of your control. Knowing over the weekend won’t really make a difference, but you being walked out without insurance for the next month really would.

    6. ArtK*

      Follow-up: I gave notice via e-mail early this morning. I was waiting on my boss to respond before telling my two colleagues. Of course, the boss told one of the colleagues without ever responding to me.

      (There will probably be more for next Friday’s thread.)

  42. LLG612*

    I’m a nonprofit executive director who is venturing into nonprofit consulting after being contacted by a number of groups who have watched my career progression which has been marked by growing grassroots/startups into thriving, professional organizations. I’m flattered and would love to one day turn this into my main form of income as I’m invigorated by helping organizations grow. However, I’m at a loss as to what to do for pricing. I’ve been doing a lot of research and nothing is standing out to me as particularly nonprofit-budget-friendly. It seems that an hourly recommended rate is 2-3x your hourly rate as a salaried employee, but I fear that would be cost prohibitive to small groups. Are there advantages to doing hourly, project-based, up-front cost plus monthly retainer, etc.?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Hiring consultants is almost always a large expenditure for nonprofits, though. What I’ve often seen is that a smaller org writes a grant specifically for the consultation project: whether strategic planning, or training workshops, or planning the annual convention, or whatever. You have to charge a rate that meets your needs. Smaller orgs need to get their own act together and get their funding.

    2. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      Charge what you’re worth! And if it’s important to you to support small groups, perhaps decide you’ll do one project per (month/quarter/year) pro-bono, or that you’ll offer a discounted rate to certain types of groups, or you’ll offer a smaller package of services at a price that meets their needs. But it is normal and expected for consultants to have a big price tag, and orgs will pay it because of the value they receive.

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        This. It will be cost prohibitive to small groups — many many many things that would be improvements are cost prohibitive to small nonprofits (better volunteer tracking software, better compensation, better accounting practices).

        I’d charge what you’re worth (and if you’re having doubts, start with double what YOU think you’re worth, because you’re likely underestimating) and then find small concrete ways to help groups that can’t afford your full services (one hour free consultation per year, youtube videos that out line “best of” practices from your unique perspective, etc.). But do not base your business model on being affordable to every do-gooder organization out there, you will be penniless in six months flat.

    3. A Consultant*

      To your last question: I prefer to use project-based fixed fees for projects (I consult mainly with non-profits). That fee is calculated on my end based on the time I think it will take and my consulting rate — I agree with others not to short-change yourself in the fee setting. I think this model works well for me and clients: they know exactly what they will pay for X services/deliverables; and I know exactly what I will get, it’s up to me to manage my effort to not lose money on the deal. It also highlights the value of the service I provide, rather than time spent. That assumes your service can be bounded clearly as a project at the outset.

      I do sometimes, as folks below note, offer a discount on my fee/rate to very small clients or under certain circumstances. I advise making it clear to them the kind of discount they are getting, so that they get familiar with the true value/cost of your services.

  43. DC*

    Hiya! So I’ve been slowly looking for a new job while essentially doing the bare minimum with no motivation at my cushy job (as I’ve mentioned before, my leadership sucks, I’m the only LGBTQIA+ person left, as everyone else was fired in the last six months, etc etc).

    I just soft-interviewed (someone is trying to poach me, so we met to talk more about the role), and it would be right up my alley, a really nice pay bump..

    My current concern is my lack of motivation. I’m worried I won’t be able to muster the energy and drive to be a high performer again after all of this. I’m worried because I haven’t had any job description come across my desk that feels “exciting” and because this is still in the industry I was looking at pivoting a little farther away from.

    Does anyone have advice on how to get motivation and desire to be a high performer back?

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I wouldn’t worry too much about finding that motivation in a new job. Perhaps it’s just me, but I’ve found that drive comes roaring back when you’re at a new job, no matter how demotivating and awful your last job was. Whether you’re excited because it’s shiny and new, or it’s something you really want to do, or that you want to prove yourself(/fear not performing well enough right away – but that might just be my past awful jobs speaking and not a real or healthy mindset), a change up is a real start to the system.

      Now if it’s to find that motivation and drive at your current job? Meh, I’d argue that it isn’t worth it, honestly. If you can do enough to get by while you search for a new job, I think that’s all the motivation you need. If you bump up your job search and decide that you truly want to leave, you might find yourself feeling better at your current job. I’ve found that once you’re truly taking action to exit a bad situation, it becomes less terrible to tolerate the bad situation – it’s easier to put up with something awful if you know it’s only temporary, plus you feel like you have some semblance of control in your life, which I know bad jobs tend to take away from you.

      1. DC*

        Thank you! I have never transitioned jobs in this type of headspace before, so it’s encouraging to know that the transition itself might be what I need.

        1. Rezia*

          I agree with Narwhal that you drive can come roaring back… but also, sometimes it takes a little while, and just know that so you don’t beat yourself up. When I left a really bad job, I was so burned out that it took a while to recover and I spent the first month at my new job, which I loved on paper, wondering why I wasn’t more excited. But then I eventually recovered from burn out and became actually excited and the high performer that I wanted to be.

          Either way, don’t short change yourself because you’re worried that you won’t have enough motivation in the new job. You can’t know. What you do know is that your current job isn’t a good one for you, so when something good comes along, take it! Good luck with the job search.

      2. Alianora*

        I agree — if you’re demotivated, there’s a reason for it. Changing the situation you’re in makes a big difference to your mood.

        My personal experience: I was in a job where my manager didn’t care about the work. She ostensibly worked full-time but she was only in the office about 20 hours a week, and whenever I had a question, her response was that I should make all the decisions. Which was mostly fine, but there were some things where I really needed guidance. I found myself procrastinating on everything (but still getting the work done because there wasn’t much of it to begin with), and feeling listless and slow. It bled over into my after-work life, too. Doing nothing is tiring.

        So I moved to a new job, and now I have coworkers and managers who care about the work we do. And let me tell you, I’m probably doing 10 times the work I did at my last job, but I have so much more energy. It did take a little while to get back up to speed, but I got a great 6-month review and my manager actually recommended me for a bonus.

    2. Not A Manager*

      If you are able to take even a short break between your current job and your new one, sometimes that helps reset the internal clock. Spend the time doing self-care and not chores. Not to sound too woo (I am not a woo person), journaling or visualization can help with shifting to a new mindset.

    3. baconeggandcheeseplz*

      I just went through this – I just started a new job this week after super burned out/unmotivated. I was really worried about this as well, since I did not take a week off in between (but totally should have, so if you can work that in, definitely do!). To A Simple Narwhal’s point, this job is a much better fit for me in a lot of ways, and I noticed that I’m getting back up to my baseline work ethic of being motivated/excited again without much effort. I tried to spend my evenings this week doing things I wanted to do (instead of things I had to do, ie. pack), since I wasn’t super tired anymore, and I think that also helped.

      Good luck!

  44. Professor Plum*

    I’m looking for a job when I haven’t had one for 4+ years. Took time off to care for elderly parent and have been slow to reengage. I have been volunteering for a local non-profit in significant ways. I’m seeing mixed thoughts on how to include the volunteer experience on LinkedIn–the work I’ve done for the non-profit is definitely relevant to my job search. What do you think–should I list it under work experience? or create a volunteer section?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      It’s work experience whether or not you were paid for it. I totally list my legal work for Nationwide Civil Rights Organization as “work experience” even though only a short stint of it was actually paid.

    2. Elitist Semicolon*

      It might be useful to classify it as “relevant experience” rather than including it as “work experience,” if only to avoid any potential readers thinking you were an employee of the organization. Volunteer experience is absolutely valid experience, but usually when I see “volunteer experience” on a résumé, what follows is intermittent and/or part-time – like, say, cleaning cages at the humane society one morning a week, vs. being on-site three days/week to meet with prospective pet owners and also helping out the events team.

      1. Professor Plum*

        Thanks–yes, I can do that on my resume, and maybe I should elevate the volunteer work more there. But on LinkedIn I have to work with their pre-determined sections.

    3. 152.179*

      I would list it, in the job section, since you note that you volunteer in significant ways that are also relevant to your job search. I had such a placeholder for a few times (due to the military) that I was unemployed and volunteering until I was hired. For many employers, they love to see that you’re doing something and more so, something that has relevance to your skills and strengths.

      Ensure that you write your volunteer work, in the same manner, you would your jobs. Use metrics, show improvements, money savings, outcomes, etc. What you did, how you did it and the results. This volunteer gig will be a reference for you, too. Treat the volunteer job as a working job, when you interview.

      When you get a job, you could move it to a volunteer section.

      It’s ok to say why you volunteered for X many years ‘while you were taking care of a parent or family need’

      Good luck

      1. Professor Plum*

        Thanks–this break became longer than I anticipated, but it didn’t overlap with my caretaking.

        I like the thought of keeping the volunteer work with my other experiences for now. Started this question thinking only of LinkedIn, but now wondering about revising my resume to put this info front and center. I do address all of this in my cover letter, but it’s hard to anticipate how someone will read the gap in employment.

    4. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I don’t think anyone suggested this yet: On LinkedIn and your resume, clarify in the title that it was volunteer position, like “Really Awesome Position (Volunteer).”

      I may be paranoid, but it seems like it could come across as misrepresentation if it doesn’t say volunteer, but saying volunteer doesn’t devalue your accomplishments.

      2. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        I do something like this. I spent two weeks* working on a very prestigious, internationally known project as a volunteer. Being able to go there and work involved an application process, so it did involve a certain amount of skill and dedication to get there. It is on my CV under “relevant experience” or words to that effect as “Amazing Job (Volunteer)”.

        *Two weeks is not a huge amount of experience but in this case having been accepted to work on it is a bit of a feather in my cap so I put it on the list. Also many jobs in my field are very short stints so it doesn’t look that out of place.

  45. Anathema Device*

    I have a nice story to share.

    My manager was promoted, and I applied for the slightly remixed version of her role, got an interview and didn’t get it, meaning I’m reporting to the person who did.

    She is making all the changes I wanted to see but would have struggled to make as an internal person still reporting to the same boss as before, and she has asked me about career progression and goals and how I want to develop. I am very very happy, and when I do make a step up it will be in a team that has been streamlined and improved. So yay.

    1. Anathema Device*

      I should add that I mean streamlining the work, not the people. The changes I wanted involve being much less hands off and providing far more support, gatekeeping with internal clients etc.

    2. AppleStan*

      YAY! This is wonderful! Congratulations!!!

      Sorry that was a ton of exclamation points. Having a manager that is invested in your professional development is always awesome!

  46. Jan Levinson*

    Am I able to take FMLA due to a miscarriage?

    My husband and I found out I was pregnant about two weeks ago (after a year of trying!) About a week after finding out (last Thursday morning) I began to miscarry. I did not go to work Thursday or Friday, due to both the physical and mental pain. To note, I’ve been at my company for four years and have only taken a 1/2 day off for being sick, ever, and am never gone unexpectedly like I was last week. When I came back, my manager (who I had texted and candidly explained what was happening while I was out) told me I needed to use vacation time for the two days I was out. I told her I planned on taking those days unpaid instead (our vacation time is pretty poor; I only get 56 hours in my first four years – I finally get bumped up to 80 hours next year). She told me that she would not allow unpaid days before I’d used all my vacation time. I only have two days of vacation left, which I planned on using for a beach trip in October (I hadn’t request off yet as my husband just got a new job and we were still trying to find out the exact dates that will be best). I told her about the upcoming trip, and she said that I could take those days unpaid, since I will be out of vacation hours, UNLESS anyone else also requests those day(s) in October who DOES have vacation left. In that case, they will take precedence.

    I’m not super worried about someone requesting the same days off in October since our office is fairly small, but after this conversation happened, I did some research and it appears I might be able to take FMLA for the two days I was gone last week (and save my vacation!) Obviously, I did not plan to be out of the office, or want to be under the circumstances. Does anyone know for sure?

    1. Forkeater*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I don’t understand why this wouldn’t be sick time. Do you have HR you can consult with?

      1. Jan Levinson*

        We don’t have paid sick time – only 56 hours of vacation/personal time (basically, whatever you want to use it for). Obviously since it’s so limited, I don’t like to use that time for anything but vacation. Thank you for your sympathies!

    2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

      I am so sorry for your loss. How awful of your boss, too, ugh. Her stance would make more sense if she didn’t know why you were out, but you told her, so double ugh.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Thank you so much.

        Yeah, I was pretty frustrated by her response, but unfortunately not surprised.

    3. LGC*

      1) I’m so sorry! That’s awful.
      2) Your boss SUCKS.
      3) 7 days of combined PTO?!

      I’m off today, so you can give me your boss’s number so I can yell at her. And then ask to be put through to HR so I can yell at them to give you decent PTO.

      To be serious, though, I think you can clue your boss (and HR) in that you had a medical emergency and that’s why you were out. Hopefully they’ll be more sympathetic.

      1. Jan Levinson*

        1.) Thank you for your sympathies.
        2.) Yes…unfortunately, I’m not surprised by her reaction (or lack of sympathy). I did tell her the reason I was out, but she didn’t even ask how I was doing when I returned.
        3.) Yes…also unfortunate. Haha. I’ve tried to schedule vacations in past years to where my vacation includes a holiday like memorial day or labor day so at least I’m not using all of my vacation time in one trip. How I would love to take a two week European vacation though! In contrast, my husband just started a job and has SIX weeks of vacation!

        Thanks for the offer to yell at my boss. :)

        1. LGC*

          I missed this when I first read this post, but…she knew you were having a miscarriage (or at least a medical emergency) and her response was, “Well, that means you can’t take time off in October?!”

          Like, she didn’t even say you could take it unpaid because – you know – following procedure to the letter is more important than being sympathetic to an employee that suffered a major loss?

          That’s seriously messed up.

          That said, everyone else has covered the FMLA thing. Generally, we’ll zero out the balance for PTO/sick leave (depending on whether the employee is FT or PT) even when they’re subject to FMLA/my state’s leave laws (which are a bit stronger than federal law). In your case, we wouldn’t have gone through any sort of formal process since you were only out two workdays (we’re the kind of place that requires doctor’s notes, but only after three consecutive workdays out).

    4. fposte*

      FMLA doesn’t necessarily mean you save your vacation days, though; they can require you to take PTO concurrently with FMLA.

    5. Interplanet Janet*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. I have been there, and it sucks. <— understatement

      FMLA doesn't mean paid. FMLA just means you're allowed to take time off and keep your job.

      I don't know from legalities, but especially if they are lumping all your paid time off together, I suspect they're allowed to a have a policy that says you have to use your paid time before you can take unpaid time. (In my experience, companies usually prefer not to have too much earned vacation time on the books because it shows up on the balance sheet as a liability, so policies like this are common.)

      1. Jan Levinson*

        Thank you so much. It is really difficult (and I’m sorry for your loss, as well! I imagine that pain is always there.)

        I wasn’t aware of that being the case for FMLA, thank you. Sounds like it might just be one of those “it is what it is” scenarios!

        1. Interplanet Janet*

          It was many years ago. The miscarriages do still make me sad when I think of them, but I rarely do anymore — my oldest is 15 now. I got lucky and had something treatable (bicornuate uterus — a thing to ask about if nobody’s checked <— unsolicited advice, sorry), and I am now the proud mama of three beautiful kids, one of which was even a late-in-life surprise!

          I hope things go similarly better for you in the future. Hang in there.

    6. Wishing You Well*

      I am very sorry for your loss. I wish you had a better boss and a better sick leave policy.
      I am hoping the future is much better for you.

    7. Sualah*

      I’m not sure on the FMLA but my company’s bereavement policy calls out unborn children as one of the family members covered by bereavement, so that might be something to look into as well.

    8. Jadelyn*

      Unfortunately FMLA has…pretty much nothing to do with PTO usage. All FMLA does is protect your job, so your boss can’t discipline or fire you for being gone or hold it against you when it comes reviews/raises time. The law explicitly allows employers to require employees to use up PTO when they’re on FMLA leave, and it sounds like your boss is the type who would.

      Since your boss is a raging asshole, however, it still might be worth filing an FMLA claim just in case she tries to start shit about you having been gone those few days.

    9. M*

      I’m so sorry for your loss. Miscarriage is so devastating, I’m sending good thoughts for a quick physical and emotional recovery for you and your husband.

      You may be able to take FLMA, but your employer can require you to use PTO concurrently. All FMLA does is protect your job and benefits while you’re out.

      If I were in your shoes, I would take the PTO now and start looking for a new job. Your boss and employer sound awful (low PTO, inflexible, insensitive).

    10. Lady Russell's Turban*

      I am sorry for both the miscarriage and for your workplace’s terrible PTO allowance. However, I don’t think this incidence falls under FMLA. If your company is small, it may be exempt from FMLA anyhow, but more importantly, your medical condition, based on what you’ve related, probably doesn’t qualify, per employment.findlaw.com:

      Medical Leave for Your Own Serious Health Condition

      Often an employee’s own health condition may qualify for FMLA. For example, employees who are unable to perform their essential job duties because of a serious illness or chronic health condition may request leave to treat the condition or receive prolonged care while under a doctor’s supervision.

      Furthermore, FMLA regulations require a “period of incapacity” of more than three consecutive calendar days. If an employee’s condition requires two or more visits to a health care provider for the same condition, those visits must occur within 30 days of the first day the employee became incapacitated.

      Finally, under FMLA regulations, the treatment of a chronic health condition must occur at least twice in any calendar year, and employees may also be required to show medical certification of his or her illness.

      But apart from the above regulation, it feels like you are trying to game the system. I understand why you would prefer to find a way to preserve your PTO days, but it is for situations like this that you have PTO, crappy as your allotment might be. (I work at a place with much more generous PTO but am constantly annoyed at people who come in to work sick because they don’t want to cut into their “vacation” days.) I don’t think your boss is unreasonable at all. Use your PTO for its intended (but un-fun) purpose and take your vacation time unpaid.

    11. Observer*

      FMLA doesn’t really have anything to do with this. Your employer can require you to use your vacation time even for FMLA covered leave.

      1. Observer*

        I’m sorry I was so curt.

        The FMLA thing doesn’t mean that you boss is being reasonable or decent. While it’s true that employers often do have good reason to not want people to take unpaid leave, not allowing ANY flexibility is just ridiculous.

    12. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

      Your boss sucks. However, under FMLA your employer may, if it wishes, require you to use paid vacation days before you are able to take FMLA leave. This may be the policy at your job.

    13. ..Kat..*

      No actual ideas for you. But, I just wanted to say how sorry I am for your loss.

      There are support groups for women who have a miscarriage if you want to talk with others who are experiencing the same loss.

  47. Mindy St Claire*

    So the other week I was talking about my promotion-obsessed boss who is bad and isn’t going to change. I have a happy update! I am getting promoted to a different division within my department and I will have a new boss! I am so happy to get away from him but of course I am worried about the mess he is going to cause over me leaving (as I mentioned, he is extremely emotionally volatile and takes everything work-related way too personally).

    Have you handled an emotionally fraught transition within in organization away from a toxic person before? I would love to hear others experiences with similar circumstances.

    1. cmcinnyc*

      I had the very happy experience of Toxic Boss deciding not to speak to me for two weeks. It was an internal transfer and I offered to help find/train a replacement immediately but he chose to put his nose in the air every time he saw me instead. I was afraid he would derail things at the last minute (as in, “You can’t go yet! We don’t have a replacement! You have to train somebody!”) but I made it out without another word being said. It was unprofessional AF but I wasn’t going to chase my soon-to-be-ex-boss trying to make Transition happen.

    2. Fortitude Jones*

      Two companies ago, I had a manager that was petty and highly unlikeable – most people who met her couldn’t stand her, but she was damn good at her job (even tyrants can be rockstars), so upper management never did anything about her running off employees or firing people she just didn’t personally like.

      I had been working for her without incident for about a year when she really went off the rails. She started harassing a coworker and friend of mine who had stage 4 cancer, and she was just making our team incredibly toxic with her neverending bitterness. I sat down with her one day and asked if she would be okay with me posting out for an internal communications position at our company that would have allowed me to finally use my college degree 100%. She said she was fine with it, but from that point forward, everything I did was wrong when I was formerly one of her favorites. It was so bad, one of my coworkers asked me about the change in her tone and how she was speaking to me. When I told him she was butthurt about me posting for another job (which I ultimately didn’t even get interviewed for), he told me that she always acted like this – she’d latch onto a female new hire and try to mold her in her image. If the new hire deviated from that script and tried to be her own person, she would make it her mission to attempt to tear her down.

      I spoke to her boss, the VP of our division, about wanting to leave (not listing crazy manager as the reason – I told him I wanted to switch to a different function in the company that came with slightly more responsibility), and her boss recommended that I interview for another role that was opening up in our division on another team. Once again, I notified my boss that I was doing this (my company required that you notify your manager prior to submitting your application for an internal position), and she went behind my back to the hiring manager (the husband of her number one favorite employee), and she lied to him about me. She told him that I told her that I didn’t think I could do the job because I didn’t understand it, which is not at all what I said to her spiteful ass.

      What was even more galling to me was that she didn’t even try to hide her subterfuge – she told me to my face that she did this, and I called her out on telling a hiring manager something like this that wasn’t true (I was not offered the position). She said this to me like she was proud of sabotaging me.

      At my wits’ end with this deceitful woman, I interviewed with an external company for a role that was brand new and totally in my wheelhouse. I kept in touch with a former manager at my current company and told her about the potential new job, but she talked me into giving it one more shot at trying to find an internal position. Former manager told me I was too good at my job to let a crazy person that most people hate run me out of the company. So I applied to another position and was promoted out from under the lunatic.

      Well, when she found out I was leaving (my new manager emailed her to discuss my transition), she sat at her desk crying while angrily typing away at her computer – I later found out she sent my new manager a dang near two page rant stating she wouldn’t release me for another three to four months, and she copied her boss and her boss’s boss on it. My new manager was warned by colleagues of mine who met my manager that she was a nasty piece of work who would most likely make a scene if he contacted her in person so, after she confirmed what they told him, he forwarded the message to my former manager and the SVP of the corporate office who oversaw all of the company’s division.

      Basically, her little meltdown made her look like a total loon – my new manager’s boss caught wind of this and responded to this email chain questioning her management skills, and crazy boss’s manager ended up telling my manager she had to let me go to my new team after the Christmas holiday.

      On my last day, this nut worked from home and had the nerve to send me a page long email saying how good of a worker I am and how, in hindsight, she wished she had provided me with more guidance – maybe then I wouldn’t have felt the need to leave. I didn’t read the whole book – she was pretty much dead to me after she lied on me – and I deleted her message. I didn’t respond to her at all, and I know that ate at her. She’s that childish. Any time she saw me in the lobby or on one of the elevators after I left, she tried to make conversation with me as if we were friendly, and I would give one word answers and then ignore her. I don’t expend energy on psychotic people. I pray this disturbed woman got the therapy she so desperately needs.

  48. Leah*

    I’ve been posting on friday open threads every couple of months for a while now to whine about how sucky work is and/or the absurd amount of hours I spend on commute every day – if you’ve never seen my (very long) posts, I spend between 5 to 6 hours a day commuting to and from work. I have been doing this for the last 7~8 years, and as you can imagine I am Le Tired and just plain unhappy with my life atm. I’ve been looking for jobs in the south of the UK – I have friends and family who live there and I would like to be close to them – and I was wondering if you guys had any idea of what sort of jobs I could be looking to apply to.

    my experience: I have seven years as a customer support specialist. I have about five years of general IT support, including training coworkers and monitoring servers as a focal point, and almost two years training customers and giving support to a SaaS software. I just really like and am really great at working with people and I love interacting with customers, but I feel like I’ve grown out of the basic, low-level support I usually provide and would very much like to advance in my career.

    I was hoping to get a job where I’m earning enough to pay my bills and have some leftover to send to my parents. I also would really like to have a more senior role – I feel like I haven’t really gone up the proverbial corporate ladder at all – so I’ve been looking at Customer Success Manager and Customer Support Team Leader/Coordinator/Supervisor jobs, which I feel are right up my alley, but I’ve had little to no luck so far and have been wondering what other jobs I could maybe look for and potentially apply to. Do you guys have any suggestions of what else I could look for based on my experience?

    Honestly I’m so at the end of my rope that I’m considering quitting and moving to the UK with nothing lined up, but I would like to avoid that scenario if I can :'( heeeelp!!!

    1. SaaS life*

      I’ve made a transition similar to the one you’re looking to make, though in the United States and it took a solid 10 years before someone finally gave me an opportunity into a more senior role (yay for being a woman in tech *eyeroll*). CSM or team lead positions are good avenues; however, depending on the company a CSM can be fairly sales oriented, so that may be a reason why you’re not having much luck with those as they often want prior sales experience, particularly with a SaaS product, if that’s what they’re selling. As I’m sure you know, there’s a lot of SaaS specific terminology around licensing and revenue, especially once you get into the sales realm, that is easier to grasp if you’ve dealt with it before. Something like a Technical Account Manager (TAM) would be another title to look for. Really be flexible with titles because I found when I was recently job searching that CSM/TAM/account manager roles vary a TON in SaaS companies.

      Is getting promoted within your current company an option? Sometimes that’s easier than getting into a completely new role at a new company.

      1. Leah*

        (yay for being a woman in tech) TELL ME ABOUT IT. During my first few days in this company we had a telepresence meeting to meet the whole team, inclusing those who worked in different cities and states, and I discovered that I was literally the only woman. We have 20+ people in our team, between managers, directors, and analysts, and I’m the only woman. I was floored.

        Unfortunately I don’t have a career development plan in this company, which is the reason I’m trying to leave – the only other step above mine is my boss, who’s a director – which is really infuriating, because that’s the same reason I left my previous company, and when I interviewed here I told this to my boss and specifically asked about career development for this role. My boss’ answer was that in this company the employee makes their own career development by studying and growing and chasing after what they feel they want, no matter if it’s a step up or a lateral career change; I now know this was just a fancy way of saying “no”, but back then he made it sound amazing. I should’ve been more thorough when I asked.

        Recently my boss did offer me a supervisor role in a sister department that works with IT support, and it was pretty much what I’m looking for, but I’d have to work at one of our sister locations, which would add at the very least 30 minutes commute each way on top of my usual 5 to 6 hours, so I turned it down. My boss reminded me then that if they had any other opportunities they’d all be for that location, which is what sparked my job search. I spoke to our HR manager this week about this, and she said she’d speak to other HRs about opportunities in the office I’m in right now, but I’m just really tired of this ungodly commute and would love to move somewhere else that wouldn’t require me to spend so many hours inside a bus to and from work.

        1. SaaS life*

          I FEEL THIS. I’m currently the first and only woman in my role in my region. Everyone is very cool, but it’s always noticeable and obvious to be the only woman around. Unfortunately, the type of role I’ve moved into is a heavily, heavily male-dominated role within an already male-dominated industry (software) within an extremely male-dominated subindustry (security), so it’s just kind of how it goes.

          Hmm, I definitely get not wanting to continue the commute because that honestly sounds brutal. I don’t know how you’ve been doing it until now. I often recommend to friends to take roles that are a step up, even if they know they don’t want it long term, because it’s easier for women to get roles elsewhere in tech if they can show they’re already doing that stuff, so if another opportunity to move into being a supervisor came up, maybe consider it again. You could always start looking a few months later and say that you took the role because it was what you wanted to progress your career, but would prefer a shorter commute (I’m pretty sure anyone would be on your side if you mention how long the commute is).

    2. Lily_Itriwi*

      To be honest, I would think UK companies are unlikely to recruit someone overseas for the kinds of roles you describe – there’s to much hassle/risk with visas etc. when there are comparable candidates locally. I’d imagine your best bet would be coming over without anything lined up and maybe temping or other stop gap work while you look for something once you’re in the country, and employers won’t see you as risky in the same way they will now.

      1. Ra94*

        If OP isn’t a UK or EU (for now) citizen, they can’t temp or do stop gap work of any kind as a tourist, and even job hunting is technically prohibited. It’s really, REALLY hard to get a work visa to the UK nowadays- you may have better luck applying for a role with a big US company that has a London office, and transferring over that way after a few years?

        1. Leah*

          Thankfully I am a EU citizen (although I don’t live in EU at the moment). I’ve been focusing my search to the UK for the reasons listed above, but if Brexit rolls around I’m probably gonna branch out to Ireland or maybe Portugal or Spain, but the UK is my first choice for now.

          and my company is a big US company with offices in the UK – we’re a Fortune 500 who’s seen MUCH better days – but after a talk I had with my HR manager she told me I wouldn’t be able to get a job above my career band (basically although I’m specialized and have years of experience my job band is equivalent to entry level, so I can’t be hired for a job like team leader or supervisor because they’re two levels above mine, and I really would like to not work in low level customer support anymore) so although I’ve been looking at our HR portal for job opportunities constantly I haven’t had much luck so far. Their London office rarely has any jobs available, much less ones that fit my profile.

    3. Cheesesteak in Paradise*

      I don’t know where you are located now but general you need a work visa before you can work in the UK. And you need a sponsor (employing company) in order to get the visa.

      Unless you have extenuating circumstances or UK citizenship, you probably cannot move to the UK and then seek work.

      1. Leah*

        I have EU citizenship, so while Brexit doesn’t roll around I can legally work in the UK without needing a work visa.

    4. caledonia*

      I work in a university and we have had several people from US, Canada, NZ obtain admin related jobs.

      1. Leah*

        that’s a good idea, I just really would like to advance in my career, you know? and admin work would probably be a step back from where I am right now. but thank you for the suggestion!

        1. Villanelle*

          It’s not I think you should do admin but that universities often hire people outside of the UK. Sorry if I wasn’t clear. Like, even admin get hired. IT people likely would as well if you have skills.

  49. Leslie Knope*

    I’m in an annoying situation with a former vendor that I’m not quite sure how to handle. Two jobs ago, I used this particular vendor for a very specific kind of recycling service. I left that job to move to a new city with my partner and found a new job at a start-up in the fall. While settling into my new job, I got a call from this vendor who had found me at my new workplace. The kicker is that the rep was someone I had NEVER worked with before. I guess he got my information from his predecessor and thought it would be a good idea to try to cultivate a working relationship with me?

    When he found me at the start-up, I basically told him we were a very small org and didn’t need his services. We got into some small talk and he found out my partner works as a contractor for one of the biggest companies in my city. After we hung up, the vendor connected with me on LinkedIn which I’m fine with. What I’m not fine with is that he reached out to ask if I could connect him to my partner! I told him no, because my partner is really a contractor and doesn’t have that kind of pull. We left it at that.

    Six months later, my start-up went belly up and I was jobless. Fortunately, I found a new job after being out of work for only a month! However, this vendor saw my update on LinkedIn and has reached out AGAIN asking if I can connect him with the right person at my new company to discuss the services they offer. I’m getting annoyed with this guy – I don’t even know him! Is it OK if I just ignore him? Or do I need to politely respond?

    1. ArtK*

      You don’t owe him anything. Frankly, I’d disconnect on LinkedIn since he clearly wants to use you as a marketing tool. Don’t be a tool!

      I get approaches from salespeople on LinkedIn all the time and simply ignore them. Same with spam e-mails.

      1. Jadelyn*

        ^^^ This. Ignore him and disconnect on LI. He’s being rude and spammy, you don’t owe him an explanation.

        1. T. Boone Pickens*

          He’s absolutely not being rude and spammy. This is pretty much sales prospecting 101.

          1. Jadelyn*

            Repeatedly pestering the same person for their contacts at multiple workplaces is absolutely rude and spammy. Once, I understand. But this guy has been repeatedly contacting the same person. That’s spammy as hell. And it being “sales prospecting 101” doesn’t make it not spammy, it just means sales prospecting *as a discipline* is spammy as hell too.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      You can ignore him certainly if he’s getting annoying. As a fellow salesperson, I appreciate this guys hustle and he’s just doing what any other competent salesperson would do. You’re a previous customer so he’s going to consider you a warm lead now that you’re at a new company. If you want to nip things in the bud you can shoot off a simple email that says, “Thanks for reaching out, I’m not sure who handles skittles refurbishing, sorry I can’t be of more help. Best of luck!”

    3. CmdrShepard4ever*

      I second T. Boone, don’t be too hard on him, he is just trying to do his job. As others have said ignore him, or even send a request to cease all contact. When I was younger and worked in retail we had to ask people to sign up for the store card, I hated to ask people, I annoyed myself asking, but I could get in trouble if I did not ask. Most people would be fine and just said no, I didn’t really care if you signed up or not. But some people would get really upset and mad at me for asking and be assholes about it. I was just trying to do my job and not get fired.

    4. KR*

      I’d just ignore. I get a lot I’ll check in calls or emails like that from vendors as I’m in purchasing. There’s one vendor that I only need their services once a year or so, but the sales person keeps calling me every couple months. I know he probably just has reminder set up in his calendar for all his clients, so I try to take his calls but I don’t stress if I miss them or don’t have time to talk to him. That’s why I can never be in sales – I can’t deal with rejection, but I would imagine someone in sales is very used to it.

    5. Socratic Method*

      I get these kinds of requests all the time, as I have a generic job title that can connote “business owner” in other industries. I tell the person that I am not the right person for that kind of issue, I don’t know the person that handles it and please do not contact me again. All but the true spammers back off after that, and them I block.

  50. Anon for This*

    Looking for context on 360 evals. Did my first one yesterday. I want to be open to the feedback, but some of it really struck me as unfair. It wasn’t really work related, it got a little personal. And since it’s anonymous, now I feel weird about who from my pool of people thinks those things about me and hasn’t bothered to discuss with me directly.

    Any advice for how to react/get over it/get something valuable out of it?

      1. Anon for This*

        Yes, some of it was just inaccurate. I suspect it is someone below me that doesn’t know some context.

        Some of it was more subjective. I didn’t find it fair, but it would be a matter of opinion.

        1. Anathema Device*

          I really hear that this was difficult to get. But. Now you know how you might come across to people who don’t have the context.

    2. Anathema Device*

      Was it true?

      I’ve given 360 feedback before and I didn’t feel it would be helpful to avoid giving constructive feedback.

      Try not to be indignant that they didn’t share it with you personally. That’s not going to help you at all.

    3. Kathenus*

      I’ve been there too. Take some time first to let it settle, and get the initial reaction to dissipate. Then as others have said really evaluate it and try to parse out what parts might be valid and actionable, even if delivered in a more personal way. This is a very normal component of 360’s, and delving through the normal human reaction to anonymous feedback like this – which from experience I know can be brutal at times – is part of the process to try to get useful information out of it. At my organization we have these as part of a management training program so we’ve had the benefit of having a leadership coach review them with us to help us in this process, which I found very useful versus just tossing you the results to deal with going through on your own. At the end of the day you might still discount some things, but do an honest deliberation of the feedback first with an open mind to get the most out of the process.

      If you’ve ever contributed to someone else’s 360 it can also help to view it from that perspective, for many (especially subordinates) it’s the only time they may ever have a chance to feel they can be truly honest. Some will take that in a more constructive way to deliver honest feedback as professionally as possible, some will possibly let emotions influence their answers. But thinking about it from their perspective can be useful. And last, please resist the temptation to try to figure out who said what and in any way hold it against them or let it influence how you feel about them.

      360’s are tough, but also incredibly useful tools. I think with some time and distance you’ll view it differently than you might right now.

    4. Quinalla*

      I try to take 360 feedback as a perspective of how I am perceived. I look for patterns in the feedback, is everyone kind of saying the same positive/negative/neutral thing? Am I generally coming across the way I want? Anything I want to work on?

      And try to reframe it as perspectives you wouldn’t have otherwise. Most folks are not going to say to your face what they will say anonymously. Don’t worry that they haven’t spoken up, there are a lot of reasons people don’t. Also try and reframe not as “someone thinks bad things about me” but “I have some information on how folks see me”.

      Good luck!

    5. Jadelyn*

      1. Many people are conflict-avoidant to the point of not being willing to share feedback with someone without the anonymity of a feedback survey. It’s not about you so much as people being weird about that sort of thing, or potentially there just was never really an opening for them to mention the stuff in question.

      2. Similarly, just because it’s on a 360 eval doesn’t mean it’s really important and needs addressed. I process the 360 feedback surveys for my company and I’ve seen what’s pretty clearly people just using it to rant about old grievances that weren’t important enough to do anything about, but since they were conveniently handed a forum to whine about it, they took full advantage. Some people just Do That.

      3. Also, just generally speaking, remember that not all feedback is true or useful. Unless there’s a clear pattern, take feedback with a grain of salt and think critically before you just rush ahead and make changes based on the feedback. Someone might think you did a thing wrong, but they don’t know the full context behind it, so you were actually right and they just didn’t know that. If you take their “you did it wrong” without due consideration over whether they’re right or not and just immediately change how you handle things, you might end up *actually* doing it wrong the next time.

    6. Alianora*

      I haven’t done 360 evals, but as I understand it they include (anonymous) feedback from people who report to you/are below you in the hierarchy? If so, it makes sense that they wouldn’t offer criticism directly to your face.

      I tend to take criticism personally when I first hear it. That’s a natural reaction, so my best advice is to take some time to let it sit before reacting. Maybe it wasn’t phrased in the most tactful way, but maybe it’s true. Or at least it’s true that it’s how some people perceive you, which is ultimately useful information.

      I suppose some of this depends on the nature of the criticism. If it’s about your personality, that really can affect work even if it’s not directly related — for instance, I come across as reserved/aloof sometimes. I didn’t like hearing that people thought of me that way, but it did affect how my coworkers interacted with me.

      If it’s more like “I hate her voice” then yeah, that’s not actionable.

      1. Anon for this*

        Yeah, one of the specifics was that my “tone” shows that I don’t value people. I don’t know how seriously to take it. It wasn’t a majority opinion. And as a woman, it’s a phrase I generally hate bc of how unequally it tends to be applied. But none of that means there couldn’t also be some truth to it.

        The whole thing left me very confused.

        1. Anathema Device*

          As someone who’s given 360 feedback and tried really hard to make it constructive and actionable, it’s upsetting to think someone might just dismiss it.

          1. Anon for this*

            I’m totally not dismissing it. I am confused by it though because the responses were really all over the place. And the fact that it’s anonymous makes it hard to know the context. And I don’t know if everyone completed it in good faith and thoughtful. I would guess most people did, but I would say the way some of the comments were phrased, I’m not sure everyone did.

            I don’t know. My main take away is I’m just confused, I don’t know what to do with this information, and I would like to get some value out of this, but I’m not sure how to.

        2. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

          Your tone? I have a friend who I’ve known for a long time who called me and told me that she’d gotten a criticism at work that she often sounded “dismissive.” She asked if I agreed with that. Well…I wouldn’t characterize it as dismissive, but she has a rather nasal voice and it varies not at all in pitch when she speaks–just a nasal monotone. Is it something about your voice? Could you ask someone whom you know well and trust to give you some feedback on your voice? Or is it the way you phrase things? Or do you tend to be abrupt and cut people off when they are speaking?

    8. Jayne*

      I once did 360 feedback for a colleague of mine from another department. I was honest in my assessments.

      Later, he was talking to me about the process and starts complaining about some of the feedback and wondering what they meant. Well. I finally told him that it was me and gave him examples from my observations.

      Fortunately, he was level headed enough to take time to reflect on what I said and did make some changes.

      While it is uncomfortable, it can be valuable to get an outside perspective. Ignore anything that is too personal and try to reflect on what was said overall. Just because people wouldn’t say it to you directly, does not mean it doesn’t carry a kernel of truth.

  51. CmdrShepard4ever*

    I’m going to ask HR people, or anyone who knows the answer. But how much initial work and ongoing work does it take to set up and maintain a pretax flexible spending account and pretax commuter benefits? My company does not have them and we have asked about them. My initial thought is the our HR person does not want to do the work. But I want to give them the benefit of the doubt. For perspective they are the sole HR person in a company of about 60 to 70 people, but there is a 3 person accounting dept.

    I did the research and contacted a 3rd party company that said they could handle most of the work. They do charge a fee but said it would break even or even save more money than what they charge with the payroll taxes the company would save.

    I had previously mentioned pretax commuter benefits to the HR person via email. They never responded to me but did complain to someone else about “the company offering great benefits already and the HR person knowing how to do their job.” the company does have really good benefits, to me if the company can break even or even save money while offering more benefits it makes sense to add it.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It’s more than just setting it up, the 3rd party will do that. However it takes the time to create a policy and how it will be offered and recorded. The setup may differ depending on how they handle their records.

      They probably just don’t know how to do it and don’t want to be bothered honestly. I would have to know a lot more about their practices since it’s a one person department for a company with 60 people. Including how their payroll is setup.

      But yeah, I’m well aware a lot of HR departments in that way are just not interested in doing anything new that they don’t have to because “omg work”.

      1. Jadelyn*

        This. Actual setup, especially for a smaller company of under a hundred employees, shouldn’t be too burdensome, especially if they use a good vendor who manages most of it for them. The more burdensome part is building the supporting structures within the company – policies, processes, procedures. How does someone sign up for the commuter benefit? When are people eligible? Is there anyone who’s not eligible? If someone doesn’t enroll, but later wants to because they moved further away, how do you handle that?

        And just more generally speaking, there’s a research component involved before you start a new benefit. Someone needs to research what’s out there, what the prevailing trend is for companies of your size, any local laws that might affect what they can/must offer, possible vendors, etc. Our employee advocacy group just recently asked us to look into setting up a policy to allow people to donate their PTO to an emergency fund for other employees who have major medical stuff and need more PTO than they have accrued. Which, cool. My boss spent literally 30 hours on research and putting together documentation on what that would take, what kind of policies we’d need to have around it, etc. I think that’s the part a lot of folks shy away from, not wanting to do all that pre-work.

  52. BlueWolf*

    Ugh, we should be having our annual reviews soon, but I have know idea when. In the past it has usually been by the end of June so it should be today, but there has been no indication from my manager that it is happening. I guess maybe she’s going to wait until next week? It’s the same every year, it always seems like a last minute thing.

    1. LadyAbhorsen*

      That was my experience in my current job. Is the culture of your office such that you could email your boss and be like “I know schedules can get weird during the summer and want to make sure that my review is on the books before [I take any vacation/anything slips through the cracks/etc]. It worked for me this year like a charm! But I know not every office allows for that kind of nudging from below.

  53. Lynn*

    My department has a very flat hierarchical structure. My boss is great, but there one program area where the roles are unclear between me and a coworker, and my boss won’t put one of us on charge. I’m not happy with the way she is handling things, feel like she doesn’t include me, and have more time to (and want to) manage this area. I have a good relationship with this coworker and don’t want to damage that. I want to be clear that she is competent but overloaded, and we don’t agree on how to manage this area. I also have more experience with this type of program. How do I– or can I– take over managing this particular program area, when my boss won’t give either one of us the authority to do so?

    1. Auntie Social*

      I told my team we were going to re-assign things just so everyone is more caught up, and then we’d talk about whether we need more help–maybe a file clerk. So it looked to everyone like a big push just to get to zero. Then I told them were going to have Lynn do the XY for a while longer because I was still reviewing work flow, then I reassigned the XY to Lynn. The individual I took work from was touchy so that’s why the permanent reassignment needed to be sloooow.

    2. Kathenus*

      Given the information you provided, you might not be able to. But what about looking at the various components or tasks within the program and see if you can suggest a division of labor between you and coworker for who takes point on different parts? This way you can have some ownership of portions of it, and add clarity of roles in general, as a step towards a future goal to maybe take an overall point person role.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Why can’t you ask your coworker if you can take that piece on?

      “Hey Jane! I like doing / want more experience in X, would you be willing to let me take that for six months?”

    4. em*

      What if the coworker’s way of managing the area corresponds to your boss’s preferences? Do you know how your boss wants to handle this program area?

      That knowledge should help you figure out your next steps. Good luck!

  54. LadyAbhorsen*

    Last week this time, I was preparing for my first phone interview since I got hired four years ago. I had three hours to prep—emailed at 8:30pm, asleep by midnight, some cramming on the train, and then desperately trying to focus on my job until making my excuses and stepping out to take the call at a cafe.

    I rocked the phone interview (some of the questions DIRECTLY nailed because of Alison’s scripts and tips!), and was invited to two days of in-persons this week. I spent the weekend on Alison’s prep.

    Three interviews on Tuesday, and two on Wednesday. I visibly nailed all five of them. I walked into the office top-level person I was interviewing with on Wednesday and the first words out of her mouth as we shook hands were, “You impressed a lot of people yesterday.” When I asked my contact when I could expect followup correspondence, he said that since I was the first person they’d brought in to interview, it would likely be another week or two at minimum.

    Then at 4:50 yesterday, he called me and said, “We all agreed that you were so good it would be a waste of everyone’s time to bring anyone else in.”

    1. LadyAbhorsen*

      This is the first time I’ve gone through a real hiring process—current job was temp-t0-hire with some internal “interviews” as I applied for new positions or promotions, and before that was Starbucks, and before that was college. I’m just so blown away and thankful for having found AAM right in the nick of time, because while I’m good at people and am honestly overqualified for the position (in a good way), I had no formal idea for how to interview or present myself. My new grandboss, the one who said “You impressed a lot of people yesterday”, specifically thanked me for my ‘lovely’ thank you note which was again only possible because of Alison’s resources.

      Also, thank you to Becky Lynch (the Man) for offering me such sound advice last week about leaving currentjob. I have a solid plan and timeline for when I’m giving my notice, and I feel so SO much less guily than I did.

        1. LadyAbhorsen*

          Thank you! I was telling a friend at currentjob that I’ve been more validated by these people in three days than I’ve been in four years here, hahaha.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Isn’t that funny how that happens? I wasn’t in my most recent job as long as you were in yours (I was only there for 17 long months), but in the seven weeks I’ve been with my new employer, they’ve made me feel like such an integral part of the company – grandboss even recommended that I reach out to some contacts in the company to help me set up an official training course on how to do a certain task I do very well. So excited! (He even wants me to lead its implementation.)

            I hope you love your new job every bit as much as I love mine :) Congratulations on knocking it out of the park with your interviews and presentation!

      6. Not One of the Bronte Sisters*

        Well done, you!!! Great news to go into the last weekend of June with! And I totally second the throw pillow idea.

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      This is SO COOL! Congratulations!! That’s the dream, right? “We all agreed that you were so good it would be a waste of everyone’s time to bring anyone else in.”? Ask them if they’ll stitch it on a throw pillow for your new office! :D

      1. LadyAbhorsen*

        I’m truly blown away. That really IS the dream and I feel like I’m still in it. (This place gives four weeks vacation. FOUR WEEKS. What??) I’m going to engrave it into my computer when I start lol.

  55. MOAS*

    I used to be so excited to want to look at resumes and interview and now I’m just … sigh.

    Candidates go through a screening with a recruiter. Once they pass that, a video interview is scheduled with myself or another manager within the same dept. If they pass that interview, there would be a third and final meeting, which is a practical to test their knowledge and technical skills.

    So far, majority of our candidates have been ppl wtih 15-20 years of experience in different fields, and/or not as tech savvy as they said they claimed they were.

    This week —
    -One candidate said b/c they were in XX field, they’d be far superior than our average person…
    -another one had great experience, and was doing well until the technical questions, and they said “gosh I feel like a retard, I know this I just can’t answer it.” I felt bad and still wanted to move her forward but my manager vetoed it.
    -another one that I REALLY liked, he did well in the verbal interview and breezed through the technical questions… bombed hte practical so we didn’t proceed.
    -and a final one who was instructed to be on a computer for the practical so they could screenshare.. called us from an ipad and then disappeared in the middle of it.
    -one was a little dry during the interview but answered all the questions correctly and turns out she did amazing on the practical so we’re moving them forward.

    I’m not sharing this to make fun of or be mean about the candidates. Just sharing my experience that it’s really eye opening being on the other side of this. I really liked a lot of these candidates and really wanted them to move forward but couldn’t.

    1. ArtK*

      Aside from the bad phrasing, here’s what I’d expect from #2 to continue: “I don’t know, but I do know where to find that information. I’d go to ….”

      I once had an interview where they asked two somewhat obscure technical questions. I answered as above, but they didn’t hire me. I ran into the hiring manager some time later and he said that he thought that they made a mistake by passing on me.

      Technology changes, and changes quickly. I’m far more interested in someone who shows an ability and interest in learning than in someone who has pat answers for this instant.

      1. MOAS*

        Sorry I should have clarified– our “technical” questions are more like about the subject matter at hand. In this case, we’re hiring for bookkeepers and it’s a lot of client correspondence, so some of the “technical” questions are like “what’s a debit/credit?” If the second person had done that, I would have been willing to move them further.

        When we initially put together our interview guide (I was just promoted to manager last month), I was skeptical about using these questions — they seemed so basic and almost insulting. But after a month of interviewing, I’m seeing why we decided to include these questions.

        The reason we ask stuff like this is to get their thought process and find a small window to determine how they would be with clients etc. Based on what we’ve seen so far, it’s a good way to determine who’s been working on auto pilot, who’s truly flexible, and gauge how they would be with clients. If someone says “I have no idea, I give up/I never used it, I can’t answer that” that shows us they may not be as flexible as they say they are.

        Almost all t he people we have starting, they didn’t have immediate answers for those questions but were more like…honest about it? still tried to make an effort to give the correct answer.

        2. ArtK*

          Ah, that makes sense. Yes, there are questions where “I don’t know” is not a good response!

      2. The New Wanderer*

        I have been asked an obscure statistics question in an interview specifically so that the interviewer could see how I reacted to not knowing something. He explained that, and that I passed, after I said something like, “Hmm, I don’t remember learning that in my stats class, could you tell me a little about it?”

        I also thought the objection to #2 was the word choice and that alone got the candidate booted. Everyone flubs a softball interview question once in a while, but handling it professionally should be a requirement.

    3. Observer*

      Also, good for you for not getting hung up on personality, and moving forward with the “dry” but knows what they are doing.

      1. MOAS*

        Yes! I want someone who knows their stuff and can be reasonably pleasant with us and clients. I personally feel like Some soft skills can be coached. Some of my team mates are very much in to this stuff though. Which I get—technical skills can be taught too but a bad personality/attitude is difficult to work with.

    4. Mazzy*

      I know. I feel resumes later have become harder to screen, because the job market seems tighter and people are applying for different reasons and might have lower skill sets than the folks that were unemployed during the great recession. I also see job hopping becoming more popular as time goes on, which is fine, but it’s also hard for me to get a clear picture of a candidate who has a different job every few years – doesn’t anything stick? Why isn’t any employer trying to hold on to them? How can they have so many computer programs on their resume – who really uses those? Did they actually get promoted, or were those titles fluffed a little? Or did they progress but it’s not showing because they always had lower level titles?

  56. stitchinthyme*

    tl;dr: Is it appropriate to ask for a reference from someone who appears to be ghosting you, and if so, should you acknowledge the ghosting?

    Details: I left my previous job about 6 years ago. That company was very small (<20 people), and the owner has a policy of not giving references; he'll only verify dates of employment. The only person from there who could give me an informed reference was sort of my immediate supervisor — for most of my time there he had the same title as me, but gave me work assignments, was the one I'd ask questions when needed, and generally oversaw my projects. He left the company a few months before I did. While we were there we got along reasonably well, though we were never really friends outside work; we chatted online a few times after we both left, mostly commiserating about how bad our old company was. By some weird twist of fate we wound up a sort of sister businesses — my company had spun off from his but still shared some resources, and so he'd occasionally have to come by my building for work things, and he'd always stop by my office to say hi when he was here. (He's since changed jobs again.) I asked him to be a reference when I was looking for my current job and he said sure, although I'm not sure if they ever actually called him.

    Maybe 6 months or a year ago, I noticed we were no longer friends on Facebook (we had been, so he must have unfriended me) and sent him a request. It was ignored, although I did see him commenting on another of our former coworkers' posts, so I know he had been on FB recently. Okay, fine; like I said, we got along okay but were never really friends. Then a month or two ago, I sent him a brief catching-up email similar to what I do once or twice a year with former coworkers or managers I might need references from in the future — just a how's-life sort of thing. That was also not answered.

    I realize that there are many reasons he might not have answered my email, but that plus ignoring my friend request on FB makes me think he's just not interested in keeping in touch. I can take a hint, but as I mentioned, he's really the only person from my last job who knows my work there well enough to give me a reference. So my question is, if I should start looking for a job (which I have no immediate plans to do but might in a few months), should I bother asking him for a reference, and if I do, should I acknowledge the ghosting in any way (like, "If you don't want to keep in touch I can respect that, but would you be willing to vouch for my work at Old Company")? Or should I just stick with references from my current job since I've been here 6 years and counting?

    1. Bagpuss*

      Well, you can ask. It may be that he would be fine providing a reference, he just isn’t interested in any kind of social interaction.

      It may be that when he was seeing you in person it made sense to him to keep you as a facebook friend but that now you no longer have even that tenuous work relationship, he doesn’t see the point.

      Maybe e-mnail him and leave out the socialising, just say that you may be job hunting in the next few months and wouldhe be OK with you giving his name as a reference, as he is best placed to comment on your work during the time you were at oldjob. That way, if he doesn’t want to socialise, you’re making it clear that it is a professional request only, and if he ignores you then you can assume it is a no, and plan accordingly.

    2. Kathenus*

      I think you can absolutely reach out and ask. Suggest also giving them an ‘out’, as it were, along the lines of – if you’re not comfortable with this for any reason, no problem, just please let me know. This way they won’t feel pressured and even if the answer’s no maybe they’ll be willing to respond so you can know one way or the other.

    3. inoffensive nickname*

      I’d suggest cultivating new references from more current work experience. Sorry you got unfriended without an explanation. I’ve seen multiple reasons for people unfriending: differing political opinions; moved away; adapted to a new lifestyle (stopped drinking, got divorced, lost a family member); had to get a new profile due to being hacked or unable to access current profile or account deleted and new one opened; nothing in common anymore; and even that the person doesn’t interact with them on Facebook the way they’d like to. I got unfriended by a high school classmate with an invitation to follow his fan page when he became a local celebrity/comedian in his city and I was reduced from friend to fan. Yea, no thanks. He wasn’t that funny after all, but at least he had the courtesy to let me know he unfriended me. No reason to summon ghosts.

      1. stitchinthyme*

        Oh, I can most likely find references from my current job. I’m just never sure when I should drop someone off my references list. I just have this vague idea that perhaps all my references shouldn’t be from my most recent job, although maybe that depends on how long I’ve been there. So like, if I’d only been here for 2 years, I should probably still include a reference from my previous company, but maybe after 6+ years I should stick with only people from my current company.

  57. in the file room*

    More a vent than a question:

    My office should be staffed with five colleagues and a team lead. Instead we functionally have a team lead and 2.5 staff. One slot is unfilled because our manager (at HQ on the other side of the country) is so slow at hiring that we’re losing candidates to OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES that are moving faster. One staff member (who works at a different site) has been ill (which I believe) or had a variety of other reasons for not coming in (which I’m not so sure about, but not my job) for three months. And one of my coworkers hates our team lead (I’ve written briefly about their terrible relationship before) and calls in A LOT. So the remaining coworkers and I have been running between two offices and trying to keep everything going. Did I mention that our job requires coverage….!!!

    Anyways, definitely job searching. Thank god it’s a long weekend!

      1. irene adler*

        Hiring slower than OTHER FEDERAL AGENCIES?
        That. Is. Truly. Slow.
        I feel for your situation. However, I have great sympathy for any applicants you’ve had. The wait is always worse for the job seeker than the employer.

  58. ThisIshRightHere*

    I’m firing someone next week. The person was on a PIP 2 months ago and narrowly passed it. Since it ended, her performance became even worse than before. HR agreed with me that a 2nd PIP is not the way to go. My problem? I’m not 100% sure I ever said the words “you could be fired if you backslide after this.” I absolutely have pointed out the recent problems, but I know she will behave as though this termination is a complete shock to her. Today, I want to say…something to her that will: (1) make it clear that her job is in jeopardy as a result of her recent poor performance and (2) not give the impression that she will be granted more time to “improve.” Any suggestions?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Hmmmm. “I’ve been disappointed by what I’ve seen from you since your PIP ended. The goal of a PIP is a permanent and sustained improvement in your performance, but you haven’t kept up with the progress that you had previously made.”

      It’s okay for her to behave like the termination is a complete shock to her. You don’t have to try to avoid that or defend against it. In fact, I think you could reasonably say the above at the point that you’re firing her. “There have been a number of issues in the past couple of months. I’ve been disappointed…” and go from there. This is one of those things that is SO obvious – you have recently almost lost your job means you need to be tiptop or you might still be in danger of losing it – that it’s not incumbent on you to spell it out.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        “it’s okay for her to behave like the termination is a complete shock to her”
        Thank you for saying that. I’ve read so much about how an employee should never feel blindsided by a termination and that an employee not understanding that their job was in jeopardy is actually management failing. This is my first time firing someone and I guess I’m worried that it will reflect badly on me when she files a grievance (knowing her, she will definitely do this) alleging that she received mixed signals from me about her performance.

        “you recently almost lost your job”
        I had a really hard time making her see the PIP that way. She kept saying “wow, this is a lot of feedback.” No, this isn’t feedback. Feedback is what I’ve been giving you all along. This is disciplinary action. There’s a self-awareness issue there on her part, for sure.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Right, the thing is that she shouldn’t feel blindsided by it – but if you were clear that was a disciplinary action then her being blindsided by it is a measure of her obtuseness about what she was being told, NOT a completely failure on your part to be clear (although, in future, it would be good to be clear that the goal of a PIP is a sustained permanent improvement on the employee’s part and that you expect them to continue that level of performance going forward).

            1. ThisIshRightHere*

              Ahhh! I can’t believe you replied. WWAD (what would Alison do) has been running through my head this entire time, so you cannot imagine the relief from hearing you say that. Thank you so much!

        2. Close Bracket*

          “I’ve read so much about how an employee should never feel blindsided by a termination and that an employee not understanding that their job was in jeopardy is actually management failing.”

          And this is true. Do I understand correctly that you never said anything direct like, “If you don’t pass the PIP, the next step will be termination,” or “You’ve passed the PIP, now you need to sustain that level of performance to avoid termination?” If so, then you failed as a manager.

          Look, she passed the PIP. That’s a strong message that she’s doing the right things. The PIP alone met the bar while it was in effect. A reasonable person would not expect to be fired after passing a PIP. Next time, be direct. Use the word “termination” or some variety thereof (“terminated”).

          1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

            I disagree that OP failed as a manager, because the OP writes “her performance became even worse than before.”

            A reasonable person (that’s the bar) would recognize that the level they reached in passing a PIP is the level they need to maintain to not have their job be at risk.

          2. Not All*

            No. Just no. If you get put on a PIP, make changes that were required by the PIP, then go back to doing all the things you were in trouble for in the first place, you cannot reasonably assume you get to keep your job.

            This isn’t high school where as long as you pass the test, you can promptly forget all the material because you will never need it on.

          3. Ask a Manager* Post author

            No, she didn’t fail. Yes, ideally she’d have explicitly said the terms of the PIP needed to be sustained going forward, but most managers don’t think to say that because it’s typically understood. A PIP is “this is what you have to do to keep your job” and generally people get that. This employee is unusually oblivious, or intentionally so.

          4. ThisIshRightHere*

            No, I didn’t say it that explicitly. At the outset of the PIP, I said verbally in a meeting where HR was present “the purpose of this disciplinary action is to course correct all these issues and assuming you pass it and sustain your improvement, we will not need to progress to separating you from the agency.” She asked the HR rep “so, I have to do all the things on this list for the next 60 days?” and he answered “yes, and from now on.” The very first item on the PIP is “demonstrate potential for long-term success in this position” and in the PIP evaluation, I said the employee must sustain her current level of performance and even improve upon them in order to continue in this role. I never said “or else you’re fired” in exactly those words. I didn’t know I needed to.

            1. Wander*

              She was warned, it was said to her explicitly:
              “…assuming you pass it and sustain your improvement, we will not need to progress to separating you from the agency.”
              “yes, and from now on.”

              1. Fortitude Jones*

                Exactly. A reasonable person would pick up that this means, shape up or ship out. It’s not OP’s problem this person is delusional.

          5. Observer*

            Actually, it should not be necessary for someone to tell a person on a PIP that it is NOT ok to go back to the behaviors that got them on the PIP in the first place. That’s exponentially true for WORSE behavior.

            A reasonable person WOULD know that they need to maintain whatever it is they achieved in order to pass that PIP.

        3. The New Wanderer*

          An employee should never *be* blindsided by a termination. It means that the first time they’re hearing that their work doesn’t meet standards should not be followed by “and you’re fired.” (Exceptions for the obvious firing-level infractions) She was on a PIP and has received at least some feedback since then that she hasn’t maintained the level that she was at to pass the PIP, and what is needed to retain her job. What a candidate feels about it is beyond anyone’s control.

          I like animaniactoo’s wording for what specifically to say to her now. You may have given her some small compliments earlier to create positive reinforcement for any little improvement, but she’s gone back to bad or worse performance and the more recent feedback she’s gotten is negative. The mixed signals argument is weak since you’re not alternately rewarding her and criticizing her for the same work content – you praised her when she made more of an effort (even if the results were still poor) and gave her specific feedback when she made less of an effort. She did pass the PIP initially, but she would not be passing if she were still on it.

    2. ThisIshRightHere*

      An additional note: as I was compiling the supporting documentation for the termination package, I noticed that I may have said “good job” or “this a solid first attempt” or something like that in response to below-standard work products she turned in. I said those things to encourage her and to show appreciation for her [temporarily] increased effort/dedication since she claimed that one of the issues affecting her performance was low confidence about her work. Aside from that, I felt I had to maintain some level of cordiality in our small office. We would all have been miserable if I replied to every not-great product with “yeah, this is pretty mediocre.” Sometimes, you have to just give a participation trophy to keep the peace. But the more I think about it, that approach provides ammunition for a potential “mixed signals” argument. I feel like I really messed up with that.

      1. animaniactoo*

        Not entirely, because you ALSO were clear that other things were not good. The goal isn’t that you tell her everything is awful. The goal is that you tell her that the things that are completely not good are bad, and make her aware that there are problems. Saying that some things are good is not the same as saying that everything is okay.

        You might want to think about how to qualify statements in a more relative manner for others going forward: “This is a much better effort than you’ve produced before.” “For you, this is a solid first attempt but it still needs improvement.” and so on.

        1. ThisIshRightHere*

          Thank you again! The good thing is that I did emphasize the importance of sustained improvement at the outset of the PIP, during it in the counseling sessions, and in the written PIP evaluation. And now that I think of it, even if I responded “good effort, thanks” to a low-quality report, the report itself is full of my track changes for errors, specific feedback on shortcomings, heavy edits, etc. I guess it should be obvious to a reasonable person that when they turn in a 4-paragraph document in which 2 paragraphs were completely scrapped and the remaining two are full of track changes and comments pointing out factual and analytical errors, that it was not actually a “good” effort. Maybe this “final” conversation I’m wanting to have with her today isn’t needed after all.

          1. WellRed*

            If you are firing her next week, I wouldn’t bother with a conversation today. I know I shouldn’t be surprised that it didn’t occur to her that her improvement needed to be permanent, but we read about lots of deluded people here. (See Peaches, above).

            1. Kathenus*

              I agree, I don’t see any up side to telling her that not maintaining better performance could lead to termination AND that nothing she has no more time to improve. If she cannot change now to affect the firing I see no positive outcome for having a preliminary conversation now.

          2. animaniactoo*

            Oh, you sound like you are definitely covered then and do not need to have the conversation with her today. If she acts surprised, it is due to her failure to intake, not your failure to output. You do not need to twist yourself into a pretzel to combat that.

          3. Observer*

            Not needed, and I think not even remotely useful. You’re not giving her any actionable information since you’ve already made up your mind. All you would be doing is giving her the weekend to stew.

            It sounds like you’ve given her enough information to know that her job might be on the line. Act as though OF COURSE she’s NOT going to feel blindsided (think “as you’re do doubt aware”). It will set the stage and help support your contention that you’ve been communicating. Same for the “mixed messages”. What you said to her is NOT “mixed messages” so don’t act like is was.

    3. RandomU...*

      Maybe I’m missing something… I’m reading this as it’s a done deal that she will be fired next week. If this is the case why do you want to say something today that she doesn’t have the opportunity to fix?

      I think in this case that would be more cruel to the employee than a ‘surprise’ firing. I put surprise in quotes since you have made the requirements clear with the previous PIP and it doesn’t need saying that backsliding after coming off the PIP won’t result in being fired.

      1. Sleepytime Tea*

        I am reading it the same as you. If the firing is a done deal, then why would you have a sit down and say “you may lose your job over your performance” when in reality it’s “you ARE losing your job.” If you say “may” then it implies it’s not a done deal and there’s an opportunity to prevent it from happening. I would feel like I was given less than a week to improve.

        If they are going to be fired, rip the bandaid off and fire them. Why are you even waiting another week?

        1. ThisIshRightHere*

          Yes, the termination is a done deal. I’m just waiting for HR to complete their particulars. The only reason I wanted to have the conversation was because I was feeling self-conscious about whether or not I sufficiently made it clear to her that termination would be the result of her failing to sustain the improvement she showed on the PIP. And as I’m a relatively new manager (and I have not fired anyone before) I was concerned about how it might reflect on me if she were to argue (and even provide supporting documentation) that I didn’t do my part. Every time I sketch out a script for this conversation, I hit a wall at “next steps.” I guess the reason for that is that the only conversation we need to have at this point is the firing conversation. HR also very much would prefer that I do NOT hint that she’s being terminated in the near future (although they’re fine if I just tell her, generally speaking, that her work is overall unsatisfactory). Almost like they’d prefer that she’s surprised.

          1. RandomU...*

            Thanks for the further information. I think you still need to ask yourself what would the conversation accomplish? The reason that PIPs are a thing as well as warnings and direct coaching conversations is to give the employee an opportunity to bring their work up to acceptable levels.

            The reason that you are hitting the wall at ‘next steps’ is because the only next step is the employee no longer working there. That’s why this conversation doesn’t work in the context of what is happening.

            Having this conversation when the outcome has already been decided is only going to make you feel better. That was a blunt statement, I know.

            Fired employees are usually going to be upset, shocked, and could argue. This happens regardless of how clear you, as a manager, are.

            It sucks, nobody wants to see anyone lose their job. That’s a big thing. But from what you have described you have given this employee all the opportunity they needed to turn things around.

            1. ThisIshRightHere*

              “Having this conversation when the outcome has already been decided is only going to make you feel better. That was a blunt statement, I know.”

              No, I really needed to hear that. And it’s absolutely true that I was mainly considering this conversation to make myself satisfied that I’d checked all the boxes. I realize now that (1) that’s not necessary because through the PIP and other means, those boxes are fully checked and (2) the only remaining step is to terminate the employee. Thank you!

          2. Ask a Manager* Post author

            HR probably prefers that because they don’t want to open the door to her deliberately doing something to complicate the firing — like deciding to get really sick right before it’s scheduled to happen, making a complaint of something that’s designed to make it look like retaliation if she’s then fired, etc.

            1. ThisIshRightHere*

              Funny you should say that! My predecessor warned me that immediately after receiving any counseling/discipline, this employee has a habit of running straight to the employee health center complaining of migraines, heart palpitations, “I think I feel a bloodclot,” etc. all brought on by work-related stress. All during the PIP she kept telling me how her health was suffering (“I can’t sleep, can’t keep food down, etc.”) all due to how stressed she was about the PIP process. I posted something else above about how she recently came to me in tears claiming to be deathly afraid of me. Firing her now can certainly trigger a fake retaliation claim. I’m ready, though.

          3. Observer*

            I’m betting that HR doesn’t want you letting the cat out of the bag because they don’t want to deal with her trying to stop the process. It’s not that she will be able to do so, but she could cause some inconvenience in the process.

            As for her being surprised, if she really does act surprised, I think the HR would use that as support for the fact that she apparently doesn’t understand the basic requirements of the job.

            What kind of documentation could she provide to prove that you didn’t do your part? The occasional small pat on the back, avoiding a constant stream of pure negativity, and maintaining some level of courtesy and collegiality in the workplace do NOT equate to “mixed messages”. Unless there is something else major going on, that’s all she can “document” and that won’t be an issue. If you really had not given her enough feedback, I’m sure your HR people would have let you know.

            1. ThisIshRightHere*

              The only “documentation” I was thinking of were those atta girl emails I occasionally sent. And of course, the last formally documented personnel discussion we had was when she was informed that she had graduated from the PIP. Though I have emails where I’ve corrected her since then, I keep feeling like she could conceivably argue that she thought everything was still fine.

              1. animaniactoo*

                Conceivably or reasonably argue? Because she will more than likely try to argue that she thought everything was fine, but the standard isn’t what she thought, the standard is what she should have thought based on your feedback to her, and her actions pre-, during, and post-PIP.

              2. SecondChoice*

                Ok I think I’ve read all your comments, and I’m a tiny bit concerned. You’ve sent her emails where you’ve “corrected her” since you took her off the PIP, right? And you’ve sent her “good job” emails since she came off the PIP. What else? I mean, what other conversations (written or verbal) have you had? I ask because while it seems like her behavior & performance certainly warrants termination, I’m not 100% sure that your communication as a manager is as tight as it could have been. Ideally, yes, after you closed the PIP you would have explicitly said to her “And, remember Jane, the improved performance needs to be sustained.” And you already noted that. But even more importantly than that, IMO, you should have mentioned it to her in the weeks since then. “Jane, you’re backsliding into the same patterns that you used to show before you got that PIP, and you know that termination is still the next step here, right?” Or, “While the PIP is officially closed, the spirit of the PIP – and the general performance requirements – stay in effect throughout your employment, as they’re baseline goals. I’m concerned that you’re doing X and Y again, just like before the PIP. This isn’t sustainable, and your employment is in jeopardy if you don’t start doing A and B instead.”

                1. Fortitude Jones*

                  But…is this really necessary for OP to say, once again, something she already stated several times throughout the PIP process? The only thing I’m seeing the OP probably should have done differently was to not graduate this person from the PIP in the first place. It sounds like while the employee’s work showed mild improvement, she still needed a ton of correction to her work product, which is why she was put on the PIP in the first place. At that point, OP should have told her that while she appreciated the effort put forth, it still wasn’t at the standard that’s needed to continue in the job – then she should have been let go.

                2. ThisIshRightHere*

                  My communication could have been tighter, yes. I’ve learned some lessons here, for sure. But I’ve said clearly, at least once since she graduated from the PIP, that I needed her to immediately correct her backsliding and she acknowledged that she’s been messing up a lot and that she’ll get it together (which she did not). I agree with Fortitude Jones that it would have better if she never came off the PIP in the first place. She was a really surly, disrespectful, unhelpful employee producing frightfully low quality work. On the PIP, her attitude did a 180 and she started showing interest in improving her work. The actual work product was still a little iffy, but I was blinded by the light I was seeing at the end of the tunnel and thought maybe I had successfully rehabilitated my problem child. A week or two later, we were back at zero and shortly after that, we dipped into the negative. It’s clear now that the attitude changes were an act and, more importantly, that she lacks the capacity to sufficiently improve her work quality.

                3. SecondChoice*

                  Fortitude Jones – yes it’s something she should have said again, because the last *official* communication that BadEmployee got was the PIP Closure document. So ideally the conversations & emails after the backsliding started would have been straightforward. I’m not saying she had to have the explicit “your job is still in jeopardy” conversation every single time BadEmployee screwed up, but once or twice throughout the period after the PIP Closure would have been a much better way to handle it. I’m not saying this is a terrible situation and that I’d never proceed here, but I do think that you have a little room for her saying “wait, what?” Which is all fine and good in the moment, but going through a legal process is a PITA, so I’d rather be more buttoned up than not.

                  Look, if I’m your HR person, I may not be telling you to hold off here … it depends on how egregious the bad performance & behavior is. And clearly your actual HR person is full speed ahead on this, and they know more about the situation than you’re sharing here (including her overall history & pattern of terribleness). In HR and employee relations issues, there’s always a process -yes – but egregiousness of bad performance & behavior can lead to skipping steps in the process.

                4. SecondChoice*

                  And I hit submit too soon – I wanted to comment on ThisIshRightHere’s follow up – that’s great that you have said to her (in this post-PIP period) that she needed to correct. Hopefully you have that documented somewhere, even just on your side, like a note in your calendar (because she sounds like the type to sue). Again, “your job is still in jeopardy here” would have been a lot stronger, for a lot of reasons, both legal and humane.

          4. Good luck with that*

            There are sound reasons why she *should* be surprised, at least by the timing. I don’t know what this person does in the organization, but you have to take steps to prevent sabotage.
            When I was general ledger administrator, I could have done very nasty things to the bank’s financial systems if I thought I was about to be fired. As a database admin, I could have wiped out a lot of data, changed other people’s security settings, or reprogrammed the processing in ways that would be hard to find and correct. IT security personnel can make life miserable for a lot of people very quickly.
            Nor is the potential to do deliberate damage confined to technical workers. Files can be deleted, email trails wiped out, paper documents shredded, nasty-grams sent to clients or regulators…. The soon-to-be-former employee needs to be escorted out as soon as s/he is told, with system access cut off during the firing meeting. Don’t give them a chance to retaliate.

  59. Amber Rose*

    One the one hand, I can force everyone into a meeting they don’t want to attend, sit in silence with everyone having nothing to say for five minutes, have them sign the sheet, and file my paperwork.

    OR, since I have all their signatures scanned, I could not do those things and say I did.

    The outcome is exactly the same. Nobody knows, nobody cares, nobody reviews my work. My morals and work ethic have tanked really hard in the face of this crushing reality: I am a mouse, doing pointless tasks for cheese. Nothing I do matters or has an impact and it’s all for show, only nobody is watching anymore.

    Anyways. Existential crisis aside, I’m caught between my boss, who does not think I should babysit adults and that they should be expected to do their own work and keep track of their own stuff. And my grand-boss, who straight up told me my coworkers were children and I am to treat them as such. I’m getting pretty salty about it. Yesterday a coworker was trying to figure out how to automate some of the babysitting and asked about my certificates, to which I responded, “Never mind them, I am an adult, I can manage my own tickets.”

    And the office collectively went, “Ooooooohh.” I uh, didn’t know anyone else was listening.

    1. Mr. Shark*

      I know the feeling. But I think you just keep doing your work for cheese, or get out and find something else. Don’t let your morals decline so much that you don’t do the work and just take those scanned signatures and fill something out that you shouldn’t. It’s a shortcut, but not the right shortcut.

      I’d be more tempted to send an e-mail to those people from whom you need signatures, and just cc your grand-boss and boss, and tell them the deadline for getting the signatures. And then just send it every week as necessary.

  60. jack*

    I was talking to one of my employees the other day, and I made a joke about vacation. We’re currently hiring someone in the same role as he is in, as we haven’t been full staffed in awhile. He had said that previously, before I was in my role, that when his counterpart was out on medical leave all of his vacation requests for that time (like a year) were denied because there was no one to cover him. I was pretty shocked, even though he’s the only tech right now, I can reliably cover him and my predecessor could’ve done the same. It’s also just a jerk move to not allow someone to EVER take a vacation and have them working 10-12 hours a day (hourly, so at least paid for that amount). Is that even legal (in California)?

  61. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

    As a manager I can refuse to come to someone’s desk if they keep their (rubber, dear god I hope ti is rubber and not real) cockroach on there, right?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Why wouldn’t you ask them to remove the cockroach? If you need to talk to them for business reasons, refusing to go to their desk because you don’t like something they have there seems like an odd order of priority.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, agreed. If you’ve asked them to remove it for the meeting and they won’t, that’s a problem you address in its own right.

    2. Ramanon*

      The most common pet roaches prefer to live in colonies, so it’s almost certainly rubber, if that makes you feel any better. Hissers are 4(?) inches, and the others are around the same size, so a proper colony set-up for them would be pretty sizable!

      1. hermit crab*

        Hisser keeper here: usually 2 to 3 inches, but yes. :) Also, I have never encountered a hisser (or any other species of cockroach) that would be OK with sitting still, out in the open, for any substantial length of time. But just because it is fake doesn’t mean it can’t make people uncomfortable!

        1. Ramanon*

          Oops, my bad! Should’ve double-checked that one. This is why I shouldn’t do things from memory.

          The fact that “is it real” was in question made me assume that it was in some sort of set-up. Although yes, the only time that I’ve seen a hisser sit still was when it had an entire bowl of greens all to itself, and even then its antennae were wiggling like crazy. But not everyone stares at bugs for long periods of time, so not being able to verify if it was moving or not seems valid.

    3. RandomU...*

      No, as a manager you need to deal with this :) Refusing to visit their desk is not an option.

      If it freaks you out, tell the employee they need to find a new home for their fake friend when you are there or simply drop a piece of paper over it while you are standing there.

      1. embarrassed strawberry without seeds*

        lol. I’m just going to tell him next time to move it out of my view. I hate those things so much.

        1. ..Kat..*

          I bet his coworkers hate it as well. If you have the authority, tell him it is unprofessional and to not have it at work.

  62. Overly Cautious Anon*

    Interview scheduling – Why do they ask you for availability and then choose a time you’re not free? I wrote back letting them know I have a conflict but haven’t been given a new option. The longer this takes the more worried I get about having another conflict – I can’t stop scheduling meetings while I wait to hear back. Frustrating.

    1. That Girl From Quinn's House*

      Because people don’t pay attention to if it is a positive statement or a negative one. If you say “I am free every day next week except Friday,” they’ll see the Friday part and ask you to come in on Friday. But if you say, “I am free Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday of next week,” they’ll select one of those four days instead.

      It’s just how people’s brains work, nothing you did.

  63. Academic Librarian Nerd*

    So, it looks like I will be transitioning from an academic job to a non-profit job in the next few months. I’m going from an environment where a shark print dress is considered normal, to a self described business casual environment. Any tips/suggestions on where I can get a few staples to get started with? Thanks!

    1. New Normal*

      On the budget end of the scale (I went from grad school to non-profit so budget’s where I live), Target often has nice black pencil skirts that wear well and formal-up less casual pieces. Two black skirts, a few colorful shells or nicer tees from Target or TJ Maxx, and two cardigans (one black, one more colorful that matches most of the shells) and you’re good for a while. And by that point you can suss out if you can still wear the shark dress with a cardigan. :)

    2. Interplanet Janet*

      I love Ann Taylor Loft. If you’ve got an outlet mall anywhere near you, that’s a great place to start. They’re not as inexpensive as Target or Old Navy, but better quality without breaking the bank.

      I favor a “uniform” of sorts for making the most out of a business casual wardrobe. 2-3 fairly neutral pants/skirt a handful of short sleeve tops and 2-3 fairly neutral cardigan/wrap/jacket pieces plus a few scarves can be put together in a variety of ways to make a couple of weeks worth of outfits in warm or cooler weather.

    3. Drago Cucina*

      I also recommend Loft. The sales are amazing. I’m plus size, so I have a nice collection of Eloquii pencil skirts. If there is a Talbot outlet near you there are often great sales.

    4. Fuzz Frogs*

      Second Target, especially searching clearance if you like funky clothes–I have a lot of success in browsing the clearance by going to my size section and just looking for colors I like.

      Some of my favorite pieces are from Modcloth–a lot of vintage inspired fashions, and they have a great range of businesswear. They do a lot of prints of things like dinosaurs and books and cats and cacti, too, so you can get a whimsical print but on something a little more high-end and business appropriate. While a lot of their prices are too rich for my blood, their sale section always has a few things I’m happy with, and they do a lot of really steep discounts for holiday sales. (I also adore Unique Vintage, which is also vintage inspired and even higher end; but they only come into my price range around Black Friday, so.)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        ModCloth is a great store – at one point, 90% of my work dresses were from them. I still buy pieces from them now and again, but thredUP has replaced them as my favorite place to buy staple work pieces. You really get a wide selection of thrift and consignment items, and the clothes are in such excellent condition more often than it for secondhand clothes. The prices are also much more reasonable than ModCloth and even some of the other stores mentioned here like Loft.

    5. ..Kat..*

      A blazer makes many clothing choices more professional. I recommend a blazer in a neutral color as a basic. Consignment stores in the wealthy part of town are a great place to pick up some nice bargains.

      Congratulations on your new job!

    6. Academic Librarian Ners*

      Thank you so much for all the suggestions! They made the offer Saturday and I accepted this morning! :-) I will be checking out Target and Loft, as well as a couple of local thrift stores to get a solid work wardrobe put togethe.

      And they did say I could wear the shark dress of Fridays!

  64. Eillah*

    Also re: the friend making the colossally stupid mistake to take a job where she’s going to lose money and time: I bit the bullet and laid out exactly what a massive mistake she was making. She revoked her acceptance and received a much better offer with more money and a 15 minute commute. Sometimes you have to save people from their own awful decisions, even when it’s not nice or they might get self conscious. Glad I was able to help her see the light!

    1. Eillah*

      (offer from a different company, which came in two days after she revoked her acceptance)

      1. Eillah*

        Yeah I was worried about potentially overstepping boundaries, but she confirmed my suspicions that she’d rather I do that and prevent strife down the road then shut my mouth for the sake of arbitrary ideas about boundaries and politeness.

    5. Fortitude Jones*

      I’m happy for her – it sounds like everything worked out for the best after all :)

  65. New Normal*

    I strongly suspect I’m hitting burn-out stage. I’m the one FT employee for a board-run non-profit and I’m tired. Our board is really involved but it’s summer so there’s lots of vacations and our board size has dropped from 8 to 5 which means everyone’s already doing more. I’m incredibly under-paid and there’s always a thousand tasks that need to be done and right now I’m staring at a tax document I need to finish and I just can’t. I’ve quietly started to work on my resume and look into other jobs and that’s helped the long-term frustration but right now I need the will to do the daily stuff and it’s not there. Any one who’s been here and has tips?

    1. Auntie Social*

      Can you ask for some temp help, or send tax things out to a CPA or EA? Be honest, tell them you need help. Plus, don’t you ever want to go on vacation? No wonder you’re crispy!

      1. New Normal*

        Thank you – yeah, there are definite resources I’m not using – we have a great tax accountant and I need to reach out. I’m stuck because I don’t know exactly what even to ask but she’s great and really will be able to handle it if I tell her what I know right now. I just need to DO it!
        We took a 1.5 week vacation last January but what should have been restful turned seriously stressful due to family drama so that vacation only counted insofar as it used up vacation days. So that’s probably part of the problem … so time to plan a REAL vacation! Even just a few days would be AMAZING.
        Thank you, honestly it helps just to be told that some level of burnout is totally normal right now.

      2. New Normal*

        Day got crazy (which is good) so just now sat down and reached out to our tax accountant. Hopefully she can help next week!

    2. Queen of the File*

      Ugh, sorry you are in that situation! I’ve been there (well not quite there, but in burnout land) and my only bit of advice is to do whatever you can to completely shut the job off when you leave work. Rigorously defend your personal time, stay social with your loved ones, and do the things you like to do outside of work. It was hard (so tempting to just keep working to avoid getting further behind!) but it kept me from really losing perspective while I looked for something else.

      Don’t give up polishing your resume.

    3. ..Kat..*

      What about asking for a raise? Sounds like they will be in trouble if they need to replace you.

  66. Some Sort of Management consultant*

    Something more lighthearted!

    I’m switching projects when I get back from vacation in August. I’m sad to leave my extraordinary team but I’ve gotten two really good opportunities!

    One I found for myself: a project manager role for a BIIIG game company in a new-to-me field.
    The other I was asked to take: an internal role assisting our Northern European Big Boss with business planning and operations.
    (It’s fairly common to do something like this at my firm, to learn the business side).

    Both of these are stretch projects but also really exciting!

  67. Forkeater*

    Has anyone ever left a good job really quickly?

    I just started a good job, very recently, good commute, pay and benefits, really great boss, work I enjoy, good coworkers. But shortly after a job was posted at a place I’d worked before, which I loved except for my boss – who is no longer there. It would be better pay and commute, and due to some unforeseen life changes that have happened recently, the better commute would make my life easier in every way.

    I’m sure they’ll interview me, I left on good terms, I probably won’t get it. I’d feel awful if I didn’t get it, but word got back to my boss. (How could I recover from that?) I’d feel bad if I got it and left this good job so quickly. But it really would be much better for me personally to be there.

    1. Auntie Social*

      Make it sound like you were doing your old company a favor–“okay, I’ll come talk to you but I’m really not looking”—and you got a chance to go back and say hi to old friends. And when you went back, you realized boy were you glad you didn’t work there any more!!

        1. valentine*

          I’d stick with the bird in hand. I never trust the “great except for the boss” places, especially if they weren’t fired.

  68. liz*

    Hello! I wrote in a while ago under a different name about job searching for a new city – I think I’m going to get an offer soon, which is super exciting. But it’s also kind of scary! I’m in my first job out of college and have really thrived here; I haven’t hit my ceiling at this office but know I want to be in a different city for a bit (plus, on a personal level, I think I’ve gotten too comfortable – I want to push myself a bit both personally and professionally). So getting this offer is great but also terrifying in that – what if I’m making the wrong decision?

    It logically fits all the bills, but the emotional bit … whew.

    So I was hoping I could hear from you all – when have you pushed yourself out of your professional comfort zone, and had it go well?

    1. ce77*

      The whole “wrong decision” thing – in my opinion, nothing is permanent. Especially at this phase in your career. If you do this new job and realize it isn’t a good fit after a year or so (or whatever is standard for your industry), then you look again.
      Every job I have had has informed me on what I am looking for in a job. Every single one – even weird temp jobs during college.

      My example of pushing out side my comfort zone – I had been at Old Company for 9 years, steadily being promoted. I loved it, and honestly had thought I’d work there for 20 more years. Then it all went rapidly downhill with management changes, and an extreme case of burnout (I was a *favorite* so more work – oh so many red flags). I reached out internally to my manager and the one above, with ideas for lightening my workload and some of the concerns I had. The result was suddenly I had a brand new horrible special project due in 6 weeks. Instead, I found a new job and left within 6 weeks. The new job turned out to be excessively boring, but it was a salary bump and I got over the burnout and reconnected with my life again – but I was worried that I had derailed my career. About 6 months in, an amazing, made-for-me opportunity opened up. A huge jump (going from a senior individual contributor to being on the executive team managing managers) with a 20% increase in pay. I went for it – I got it, and I’ve been in this job for 3 years. I LOVE coming to work everyday, I’m appreciated, and I have a new career path. I am by far the youngest on our exec team and I’ve grown a lot in my management skills.

      I was really worried when I made the jump from the 9 year job to the boring job that I’d be stuck forever. But you aren’t. You can always redirect your path. Go for it, do your best. Either it will go well, or you will redirect your path again. And both are okay.
      (also – when i’ve been in these situations – I reread Who Moved My Cheese. It’s a bit corny, but it gets my head back in the game)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Agree with everything in this post. Your last couple of years sound like my career trajectory (was in a fast-paced, high stress job and left, ending up in something boring for 17 months) – I’m seven weeks into a new job that is so tailored to my strengths, it’s like it was created with me in mind (it wasn’t). And you’re right – depending on OP’s age and experience level, mistakes aren’t the end of the world. The potential for recovery is strong when you’re early/mid career.

    2. Roja*

      I’m doing that right now, actually. My husband and I are moving in two weeks for better opportunities for me. I’m a field where PT is normal (sigh), but I’ve already increased my hours 6-8x what they are now, and they’re better paid too. It’s scary, but I’m really happy too. It’s been very good for my confidence to see how much people have wanted to hire me. :)

      Good luck to you–hopefully you’ll find the same thing!

  69. Hello!*

    I run a semi-successful food blog on the side of my work that explores my life being recently diagnosed with Celiac’s Disease and my journey going gluten free. Anyways, I am planning on looking for new jobs in the next couple months and I was wondering if I should include the website in my resume? I see the pro as the jobs I would be applying for generally have a communications/graphics element but the con as them knowing that I have a condition that, while it does not cost much healthcare wise so long as I avoid gluten, in my mind would raise flags as “look at her she is sickly and will cost a fortune for health insurance.”

    1. ThisIshRightHere*

      What better way to show not only your writing/tech skills, but also how well you have your medical issue under control? I say go for it!

    2. Nicki Name*

      Absolutely include it! It demonstrates skills that are relevant to your job, and if anything, they’ll learn something about your condition and how well it can be managed!

    3. AndersonDarling*

      I don’t think the celiac would influence anyone about hiring you. It’s so common now and your blog is about how you are controlling it. If your blog was about SlowDeathCancer and how to navigate all the medical bills, then I might be influenced.
      As long as the blog has a professional edge, it wouldn’t hurt.

      1. Hello!*

        How’d you know about my other blog?! Just kidding. But yeah, I mostly just share recipes, recommend products that I enjoy, sometimes provide updates about how I am feeling, etc. since I live in the Midwest, aka the beer and casserole capitol of the world, so it is mostly just navigating your gluten-free life in the land that loves gluten.

    4. Hello!*

      Thanks everyone! I just needed a bit of reassurance since one person said to include it and one said leave it off. It is still a somewhat new thing to me as I was just diagnosed 6 months ago and I haven’t said anything at my current work (my boss is already trying to get our health insurance lower and has threatened to kick off spouses so I am not saying anything) so I didn’t know what hiring managers really think about it.

    5. MoopySwarpet*

      Celiac’s is a fairly “easy” disease as far as employers are concerned. I don’t think most people really understand it beyond the gluten intolerance aspect. I’m sure most people would just look at it like an example of your writing and something to keep in mind when ordering group lunches.

      I’d probably put it in a hobbies/portfolio/relevant experience section rather than lining it out as a job, though.

      The only reason I would hesitate is if the person telling you to leave it off has some feedback about it maybe not being up to professional quality or something.

    6. ..Kat..*

      FYI. I have to avoid gluten. I have found many people believe this is a made up problem. So, it could hurt your prospects at some places.

      1. jolene*

        Yes, I wouldn’t do it. I have several acquaintances who have decided they’re coeliac as their latest diet/food fad and eaten bread in front of me, and a restaurateur friend who sees this frequently, and you don’t want to be tainted in advance by people who’ve had bad experiences with the self-declared gluten free.

  70. Blarg*

    Anyone done consulting for multiple states? I have a very niche area of expertise and just left my job because I wanted to relocate. I’m also exhausted from the work I did, which was very rewarding but intense. I got a lot of national recognition and several states have reached out to me about setting up similar systems for them. This would be less crazy-making cause I would just set up the system, not also run all the other pieces like I was doing. But I’m wary of the challenges of getting business and professional licenses in each state, contracting, invoicing, etc. I think I could make this work as a consultant for a while, but the not-actual-work part is daunting to me. Advice? Tips? Resources? Thanks!!

    This is also the first time since I was 14 that I’ve not had a job. I have several months of savings and I know that I need a mental break in a big way but it is simultaneously scary and kind of amazing. I haven’t worked in two weeks (moved across the country so it hasn’t been “relaxing” yet) and it is so weird! I don’t have work things to worry about. And I’m not up against deadlines. The stakes aren’t high — they don’t even exist!

    2. A Consultant*

      Caveat: none of my clients are state governments, I don’t know if that changes anything in what I’m about to say.

      I only had to register and license my business in the state where the company is based. I contract with client organizations all over the country to provide services, but I don’t have to get my business registered there. So it’s not really daunting at all. I’m also in a field that doesn’t require special licensing — it’s just basic business-to-business services.

      I always recommend looking for a good getting-started reference book on starting a small consulting/services company, ideally one that was written in your field or an adjacent one, but as close as you can get. That got me on the basic right track of the things I should be thinking about as I got started. Also check the Small Business Association website and see if you can get an appointment with an advisor locally (again, ideally someone who knows something about your area). I actually DIDN’T do that, but it was recommended to me.

      1. Blarg*

        Thanks! I hadn’t thought about small business resources. I still don’t see myself as a “business person.” Might need to start with reframing in my brain. :)

  71. Lady Dedlock*

    I recently got a forceful reminder of why I used to have a no-friends-at-work policy.

    Last week, I had a petty argument with a colleague I’d grown close with over the past year, and she lashed out at me in a really painful way, saying I make everything about my depression (yes, I suffer from depression) and saying she couldn’t handle my craziness. Now she’s ignoring me at work, and I’m afraid she’s going to tell others that I’m crazy, and they’ll take her side because she’s quite popular.

    To me, the crazy thing is that this is someone I’ve been a really supportive friend to. I’ve been there for her through multiple breakups with boyfriends, issues with her supervisor, and the resurgence of her eating disorder due to stress from the aforementioned. I’ve also been there to cheer for her and celebrate when something goes well in her life. We would frequently go out for dinner or drinks, and we were planning on having a girls’ weekend in September. It’s wild to me to suddenly find out that she has all these negative perceptions of me and doesn’t have any forbearance with my depression.

    So, yeah. No more work friends. Lesson learned.

    2. Cows go moo*

      I distinguish between work friends and personal friends. Work friends are people I can eat lunch with, enjoy their company, gossip about celebrity scandals, and vent together about Annoyong Coworker. But I would not share any personal (medical, family etc) details unless I was comfortable with the entire company knowing.

      It’s fine to have work friends. But for the reasons you mentioned it’s good to keep boundaries and not share as much as you would with personal friends.

    3. Observer*

      It sounds like she has her own not-so-well managed mental health issues. I mean, close friend or not, this kind of lashing out seems like a really disproportionate response to a petty argument. What’s up with that?

  72. alphabet soup*

    I just started a new job (it’s my first week) and I’m already worried that I made the wrong decision.

    Everyone has been very nice and welcoming and my new manager is laid-back and approachable. But I get the impression that she doesn’t have a clear picture of what my duties will be in this role. It’s the end of my first week, and I still haven’t gotten a sense of what I’ll actually be doing in this role (beyond what was told to me in the interview). I’ve only had one training session with her so far, in which she kept saying things like, “oh, this could be a thing you could do!” and “maybe you could work on this project later on,” or, “we’ll figure out who’s going to do what as we keep working together.”

    There also doesn’t seem to be any documentation or procedures for anything and no training plan. It seems like my manager is just making it up as she goes along. All of the knowledge is in her head and not written down anywhere. So when she’s training me, it feels like she goes off on these long-winded tangents because she’s trying to pass as much of her institutional knowledge to me as possible. She was not able to explain a single task to me without jumping around to 5-10 semi-related topics. Something that should have taken 5 minutes to explain took her 20 minutes because she kept jumping around. This really grates against my work and communication styles—I’m very straightforward and concise, and I’m very structured and strongly believe in having guidelines and documentation for regular tasks, because I don’t enjoy wasting time reinventing the wheel.

    I’m afraid I might have made the wrong decision in accepting this job. How red or yellow flag-y are these issues? My last job was pretty toxic, so I don’t have a good baseline right now of what’s normal workplace dysfunction and what’s cause for concern.

    1. fposte*

      It depends. I think you’re probably correct in reading this as signs that this job isn’t very clearly defined and that your boss isn’t a concise communicator.

      But this could also be a brilliant job for somebody like you. Structure, guidelines, and documentation happen because somebody drafts them. If they’re not sure what the job does, what do *you* think the job should do? What do you want to have happen? Do you want to take some time to shadow Jane or train with Thanh? What would happen if you asked for it?

      That doesn’t mean that it absolutely is a brilliant job, or that what you’re describing as your characteristics include enjoyment of this kind of creation. But there are definitely people who could find this a big opportunity, so consider that possibility as well.

      1. Auntie Social*

        I think she could create her own job. If manager is vague, I think she’ll just let fposte try taking on new things. And I’m sure her communication skills will be appreciated by all!!

        1. alphabet soup*

          I wish that was always the case (communication skills appreciated by all), lol. My last manager really seemed frustrated by everything about me– clear communication style, love of documentation and process. It caused a lot of friction between us. I’m hoping things don’t go the same way with my current manager.

      2. alphabet soup*

        That’s a really good point and way to frame this as a positive. I know that’s the healthy way to look at this situation. I’m a little once-bitten-twice-shy right now because this also happened in my last job– it was disorganized chaos, and I spent two years trying to create processes, documentation, and workflow improvements, but instead of that being appreciated, my boss resented it and it created friction between us which led me to leave. I don’t get the sense that my current manager is as inflexible as my previous manager, though. I’ll have to give it some time and feel things out some more.

    2. Anathema Device*

      I wouldn’t like this. But maybe give it a little time and see if you can a) shape the job the way you want it and b) put some documentation together yourself?

      1. alphabet soup*

        That’s good advice. I’m going to try to give myself three months to truly feel things out before making any finals decisions re: staying or going.

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      This doesn’t sound like workplace dysfunction to me so much as things not being clearly defined and documented. If you’re an organized sort, maybe this is a way you could make a real difference right away!

      What would happen if you said, “I’ve noticed that a lot of the work you’re talking about for me isn’t documented anywhere, and I was thinking that it might be a useful project for me to get that in place? What do you think? Creating the documentation would really give me a chance to be sure I understand what’s being asked of me, and maybe act as a jumping off point for you to think of other things you’d like me to do?” And I don’t think it would hurt to say “I function best when I have my tasks clearly defined, so honestly, this is probably something I’m going to do informally just for my own information anyway.”

      Or if you think she’ll say no, just do it anyway, based on notes you’re taking or whatever, and show it to her when you’re done. Unless doing it causes you to *not* get done things she’s expecting of you (which it sounds like is unlikely, since you’re not getting enough to do?) I can’t see why she would be bothered, and it *will* give you a jumping off point to say, “here’s what I understand I am supposed to be doing; I see room in here for X more tasks and is there anything else we can add?”

      1. alphabet soup*

        That’s a really good suggestion.

        I was planning to do something similar– I’m going to need to document all of this anyway for my own sake, so why not make the documentation public knowledge? Since it’s my first week, I’ve mostly been in learn-and-observe mode, so I might do something like this at the end of week two or three. I made the mistake in a previous job of rushing in with all my ideas for improvements, and it caused a lot of friction between me and my former boss, so I’m wary of repeating the same mistake.

    4. AndersonDarling*

      Did you just step into the role I left? Ha! I had the same experience with my last job and I held out for 9 months before moving on. In the end, my manager really didn’t know what it meant to be a manager and she was in a department of leaders that also didn’t know what it meant to be a manager/director/vp. Everyone just pretended to work everyday. All they did was make plans and change plans and make new plans.
      But everyone was nice! So I stayed and played along while I searched for something better and it all worked out for me.

      1. alphabet soup*

        Hahaha, oh no, I hope not! That’s one of my fears, actually– that this is one of those jobs where there is no “there” there, in the sense that you keep waiting for more interesting/challenging work to emerge but it never happens because folks are fine with spending their time holding departmental meetings to figure out the company stance on the oxford comma and they don’t want things to change.

        I’m glad things worked out for you!

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      My current job started in a similar situation (5+ years here now). While I had a project assigned to me, we had to wait on an external party to kick start it, so I think I spent my first week or two reading pamphlets about the organization (???).

      What I did was find projects (like you and others suggested above, creating documentation could be a great project while you’re being trained) and started crafting my own role. Two promotions later (which I instigated each time; so much gumption!! :p) and I’m now the de facto head of an area of work that my organization needed, but outsourced to great expense (and oftentimes not great efficacy).

      So, if crafting your own role is something you are open to, some of my lessons learned:

      1) Communicate with your manager, so you know that you’re aligned on prioritization.
      2) Pitch small projects to start, with some demos/outlines to show your manager before you sink too much time in them. Include what the benefits would be to the team/organization.
      3) Find training for yourself as needed, online or through noting how your manager, GrandBoss, colleagues, etc. operate.

    6. Megasaurusus*

      This sounds just like my training! I was so frustrated I was looking for a new job within a week of starting. But I stuck with it and really enjoy my job now, but training on anything new is exactly the same. I handled it by making my own procedures. Use one-note/evernote/trello and make your own procedures, rules, directories, etc. as you are putting all the puzzle pieces together. Some jobs require you to figure it out and train yourself.

      Also, it’s important to remember that while it may be your priority to learn your job, feel competent and knowledgeable as soon as possible, it may not be other people’s priority. No one was in any hurry to train me and while it drove me bonkers, I realized that it was okay, as long as no one held what I didn’t know against me. Fortunately, no one does in my work place.

      Lastly, if you just ended a toxic employment, you’re still in the fallout zone and its hard to recognize healthy (or at least healthy enough) work places.

      I’m two years in and I really enjoy my job now – Sometimes it takes awhile to even out from the last experience and find your balance in the new.

  73. S*

    Anyone have any advice on posting your resume on Career Builder? Did you leave off your home address and phone number? Pretty leary of posting my info on the web. Thanks

      1. irene adler*

        Yep!
        I’m a biochemist. Had to field calls from life insurance companies who insisted I had the proper background to sell insurance.
        Um, no.
        Personally, I no longer post my resume. If nothing else, remember that you have no idea who all will be viewing it- and seeing your personal info. So leave off the home address and phone#.

        1. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

          Based on calls I’ve gotten, they were probably shady companies that even people who do have insurance-sales experience wouldn’t want to work for.
          Also, cold calls that mention helping union members or veterans are often shady as well. :(

    2. Jellyfish*

      I was looking for a job in a pretty specific field and had a ton of insurance companies contact me about sales jobs that I wasn’t qualified for or interested in. Those stopped as soon as I pulled my resume off Career Builder. Didn’t get any hits from the field I was searching in via that site either.

  74. NotAMadScientist*

    Job interviewing and hair question.

    Accidentally grew my hair out again, just too busy to get a trim times 8 months and some depression. I want to get it cut again but meeting some concerns from mother and friends that long and in a bun or French braid has better chances in an interview.

    My hair is very wavy curly not tight spirals. Does tend to frizz. I’m a throwback gene in that both my parents have straight hair but I looks more like my irish ancestors. I normally wear it short, above the shoulders. My day to day “look” is scrunch and go, little bit of gel air dry. My mother says thats messy and that’s not interview hair. My friends say its not messy and super cute but follow up that yeah updos are better for interview. Short i can get tiny tiny ponytail or half up. No way to braid or bun it. I can straighten it but i dont enjoy doing so. It’s a pain. My mother was always very pro you must brush out the curls and other bad curly hair advice so I’m questioning whether she’s right about this.

    So commentors, looking for advice on whether thats true and worth not cutting my hair (or trimming ends but keeping the length). I feel much more confident with short hair if that’s a factor.

    1. NotMyRealName*

      It’s just hair. As long as it’s clean and neat and you like it, cut it how you like.

    2. Jimming*

      Go short if you feel more confident that way. Lots of professionals have short hair. And interviewers will not be making decisions based on who has their hair in a bun and who doesn’t.

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      When my curly hair is shorter, all I do is make sure it’s controlled for frizz and pinned up out of my face. (Right now it’s long, so I do pin it back and braid it down for interviews, then judge the office to see whether letting my freak flag fly will be acceptable.)

    4. Auntie Social*

      Wear it the way you wear it most days–that’s the real you. You’ll have on your lucky interview outfit, you’ll be fine. Good luck!

    5. RandomU...*

      I think my hair is similar. Maybe substitute wavy curly with big crazy sausage curls.

      I’ve just learned to embrace mine and I have carefully (ha!) cultivated a ‘deliberately messy’ look. It’s also red so not subtle at all* It’s just never going to be ‘polished’ and forcing it to try ends in disaster. So my advice is to style it the way that you always do for the interview and not give it another thought.

      Longer term, rock it and make it your thing.

      *I once got a call as I was crossing the parking lot at an office I hadn’t been to in over a year, from a coworker who I also hadn’t seen for over a year who said “Hey I didn’t know you were in town!” when I answered. I was really confused and asked “Umm, how did you know I was in town?” the reply was “I’m up on the 6th floor and just looked out the window and saw you in the parking lot”. So I guess my hair is the total opposite from subtle.

      1. KR*

        I have curly wavy hair that is wild like a lions mane and I do the deliberately messy thing but I will straighten just the front pieces (I don’t have bangs but shorter pieces in front) or kind of shape the top with my flat iron so it is curly but lays flat on my head and looks styled but is still curly and “me”

    6. Mark Brendanaquitz*

      I have very similar sounding hair! I also scrunch and air dry my wavy curls. I’ve never worn my hair up for an interview before. I sometimes straighten it for interviews, but I have also gone with my hair curly wavy and the front sections twisted back with bobby pins. I don’t think your hair is unprofessional because that is mostly how you will wear it work anyways, right? I would just get a trim if you like the length just to polish it up!

    7. blink14*

      Go with what makes you feel the most confident. Sounds like I also have similar hair to you, I have had it very long, mid-length, and for the past few years I’ve had it cut in a longer, angled bob (lob?).

      Long or short my hair requires work to be tamed into some kind of style, never been a wash and go type of hair. When it was very long and mid-length, I used to mostly just do half up or a ponytail, and sometimes straighten.

      Since going shorter, I prefer to straighten it during the week (this also keeps hair washing to every 2-3 days) and go curly over the weekend or for a night out. My hair does not do well when slept on curly, so straightening during the week takes out the stress of trying to get ready for work and I don’t have to deal with a big hair crisis every day. For me, maybe because of this routine, straight hair feels more “professional” and curly hair feels more casual, but also sometimes more high maintenance and always harder to control.

      If short works for you the best, go short! I’ve had several people who’ve known me with all hair lengths say that my current style seems the most me, and I haven’t had a serious desire to grow it out.

      1. NotAMadScientist*

        I love the angled bob/lob! Makes it easier to go shorter and still be able to do half up. Thank you for replying!

    9. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      Urgh, your mother is wrong. Messy hair is hair that is dirty and forced into styles it wasn’t meant for and doesn’t conform to well. I have wavy/curly hair and it always looks better either scrunched + air dried to encourage curls or blow dried straight-ish. Brushing out the curls always looks like a frizzy nightmare. I’m having a hard time imagining how long your hair is (collar?) but if you are concerned about it being messy I think that maybe pinning the sides back would be better than trying to get a comically tiny ponytail.

    10. Slartibartfast*

      Try curl cream instead of the gel. It’s less crispy, and it’s easy to freshen up.

  75. People Pleaser*

    Is there a chance of getting a decent recommendation/referral from a boss that dislikes you and your personality?

    Backstory is that this is a temporary position as an aide in a local university’s summer program. Just started this week and I’ve already been criticized a handful of times by my boss, because I kept asking follow up questions for my job responsibilities and for not being “flexible” enough (please note that I didn’t get an orientation or any training :) got thrown into the sharks in the first day). So now I’m ridiculously anxious and trying my best to avoid talking to my boss and instead try to communicate with my coworkers for questions.

    But I’m hoping to use this temp position to get a permanent one with this university. Should I continue my avoidance policy and hope that my boss sees that I’m a quiet, hard workering employee and hope she can give a good referral? I’m so lost on how to proceed and feel so discouraged because I was hoping to get good referrals for my next job hunt; this is only my third position after graduating college so I’ve been struggling with getting enough references for checks.

    Also I’ve never had a mamager/boss dislike me so my self-confidence is destroyed…

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think you need to dial way back, you’ve only been at this job for a week! You have no idea if your boss actually doesn’t like you or if they’re having a bad week or under a deadline, or any of a dozen other reasons. Most people don’t walk into a new job and start out perfectly, so even if your boss is (unreasonably) upset that you aren’t performing like a rockstar right now, that doesn’t mean their attitude towards you will be that way forever, and it is definitely way too early to start worrying about recommendations.

      Also if it turns out your boss is actually a terrible, rude, awful person, chances are that anyone you’d interview with at the university is probably aware of this. If you can foster good relationships with coworkers (presumably at a higher level than you), you could always use them as recommendations instead of your boss.

      But overall, I’d take a deep breath, you’re probably fine, it’s only been a week!

    2. Kathenus*

      This is also a great chance to practice opening up lines of communication with your boss. Address it directly – ‘boss, I’ve heard your feedback on being more flexible, and am doing xx and yy to address it. Does this approach sound good to you? And I’d also like to keep open communication with you on how I’m doing, what is and isn’t working, and any ways I can continue to improve’. I think the avoidance strategy isn’t likely to succeed for improving a reference. But professionally communicating with your boss about your performance and how you’re responding to feedback can move you into the ‘coachable’ category, hopefully, which I can tell you as a manager is a very important trait that I value highly.

  76. Sunny*

    How do people deal with their side hustles in the workplace? I am not talking about MLMs, but other businesses that you may have.

    It’s never a problem, but sometimes I will mention my Etsy shop in passing and I can feel a coworkers eyes glaze over when I mention it. Should I just not mention it? Some of the design skills are relevant to my position.

    1. Etsy Betsy*

      Etsy gets a bad rap when there are massively successful stores on there. Most people think it’s a cute little crafter’s haven and we all buy one another’s stuff. No one could possibly make a living there, or so they think. They also probably don’t want you to add them to your email list .. lol. I have an Etsy shop and my email list is a skill I’m working on and it’s what I do at work, too.

      Be you. If you want to say, “I used this (skill) when designing my Etsy shop,” you’re doing yourself a favor by being confident in your store, your side gig (that might go big someday- HA!) and you’ll show them that Etsy isn’t just a hobby lobby land of knitters. But then everyone I work with (in non-profit) has side gig – Uber, Lyft, Grub Hub, Stitch Fix. I’m the only Etsy’er).

      And what you feel may not be reality. Ask them, “Do I mention my shop too much?” And if they say, ‘yes’, then you can moderate yourself. You are you – be YOU!

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you’re mentioning it in passing and aren’t handing out links saying “Dude, check out my Etsy shop!” at any given chance, you’re fine!

      You do need to accept that people are going to look at this side hustle as a hobby and not a business. That’s just the name of the game. Their eyes glaze over because they don’t care or don’t value it, that’s okay! You can care and value it. We have a lot of those kinds of things that may or may not be transferable depending on whom you speak to at any given time.

      So it’s about finding your happy spot and just make sure you’re not pushing/going hard sales-person on these people in the end, since it’s uncomfortable when people constantly mention their side-hustle even if it’s not MLM. I don’t want to feel pressure to buy your stuff. So unless you go “Man I see you love unicorns [I sure do]” and say “I made a unicorn themed pajama pant, it’s in my Etsy shop.” then I’m all in. But just saying “IDK you well at all but look at my stuffffffffff look at all these stuffsssssss” is obnoxious.

    3. Policy Wonk*

      If it comes up naturally in conversation it’s fine, e.g., someone talks about knitting and you mention that you create patterns and your work can been seen on Etsy. If you are discussing teapot design and you interject that you have a teapot cozy shop on Etsy it will be seen as you trying to sell them something. With the notable exception of Girl Scout cookies, pretty much everyone I work with hates getting a sales pitch from a colleague. (And even with the cookies they don’t want a sales pitch, but post the form by the office fridge and watch it fill up.)

  77. FuzzFrogs*

    I don’t think I would mind so much about working nights/weekends/working shifts on a service desk (public library) if scheduling my PTO for vacation weren’t just absolutely insane, and they’ve made it worse lately. It used to be I worked one night every week, every third weekend, and I could ask any other full-time employee at this location to switch time with me (about 15 people) as long as it didn’t leave a day/night without someone who could run the building (we have to get coverage for any nights or weekends–not 8-5 days). Now we’ve got a rotating “late shift” on Fridays (only until 6 but we still have to get coverage if we want it off) so every third week has an extra night off we’ve got to trade away to get our PTO approved, and we’ve been restricted to asking people with the same title to switch, which has brought me down to…three other people. This is all beside the fact that of course we can’t schedule vacation on days we have programs or other commmitments, and we schedule our programs up to six months prior, so I need to know *then* when I want to take off and already be jockeying for the time free, even though I can’t even formally ask for the PTO until at most three months ahead. (When I was getting married I was able to get an exception and get it approved early.)

    It’s just…frustrating. It’s not just that this is a reality of what we do, either–the longer I’m at my location the more I realize how badly understaffed for the amount of work we do, that the reason it’s so difficult to take PTO is that we already don’t have enough people to cover all of our nights and weekends, even when we’ve got all our positions filled (reader: we don’t have all of our positions filled). I just…feel like this entire process could be better, without really knowing how I can change that from where I am.

    1. Psyche*

      Wow. It seems like it would be easier if they TRIED to get you to request PTO far in advance so that they can make the schedule around it rather than juggling later. I’m sorry.

  78. Semaj*

    Any tips on how to stop being incredibly nervous around my boss’s boss? I’ve been in my role for over a year so I’m feeling comfortable with everyone, but something about this guy puts me on edge. It shouldn’t, he’s very kind, but I can’t help but see him as super intimidating. He’s at a Director level that just feels so many rungs above my own, he’s waaaaay tall which somehow adds to this, and I just come off as a bumbling idiot every time we make small talk. I feel more focused on the performance part of chatting, nodding, smiling, etc., that I think I miss conversation cues. I’m not usually like this AT ALL and it’s mortifying. Please help me break out of this!

    1. Lumen*

      Well, remember that lots of people experience this when dealing with higher-ups and your nervousness is totally normal. Worrying about how intimidated you are just compounds the problem, so maybe just remembering that will help.

      Another thing to try and tell yourself is the good old advice we all got in middle school: no one is really noticing or thinking about how you’re awkward or bumbling, because most of us are too busy thinking about ourselves. This grandboss of yours probably doesn’t even notice, or at most goes “huh, odd” and then forgets the encounter.

      Over time if you put fewer stakes on these interactions, it might help you relax a bit while they’re happening and then they’ll go smoother. I’ve been there. Just be polite and professional and don’t focus too much on the performative part of friendliness.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Another thing to try and tell yourself is the good old advice we all got in middle school: no one is really noticing or thinking about how you’re awkward or bumbling, because most of us are too busy thinking about ourselves. This grandboss of yours probably doesn’t even notice, or at most goes “huh, odd” and then forgets the encounter.

        This. We put way too much pressure on ourselves, when most people are so involved in their own thoughts that it probably doesn’t much matter what you say.

    2. KR*

      Super normal. I honestly try to avoid my great grand boss. My coworker said it best though – “He puts his pants on every morning just like us.” And I try to remember that.

  79. Do I follow dad’s advice?*

    Ok so… not sure if my dad is giving not so great advice or he is truly correct. I love him lots but sometimes I’m not sure if it’s the most up to date advice.

    I graduated from school in 2016. I worked a short stint for 4 months (left that off my resume), moved to another city and worked at that job for 19 months, moved again to another city to be closer to my partner and am in current job for 7 months.

    WHEW CHILD. This job is a hot mess. The turnover is crazy, my team calls each other names, someone SPIT on another person yesterday out of anger. I gotta go. I dread every single day I’m here. I started looking a month in, but the fear of job hopping set in. My father also recommended that I stay two years to boost my resume. He says I need to toughen up and the work world is hard and sometimes people might spit on you, but that’s just part of working hard. My dad has been in the military all his life. So… I don’t know.

    He also says I can’t leave this job unless I get a job offer with higher pay and better benefits. At this point in my exhausted mind, I would take a pay cut for a better work environment. I’m early enough in my career that I think it would be ok to take a pay hit?

    Lastly, he says my reason for leaving the job (“poor cultural fit, I’m looking for a place that really values team dynamics, inclusivity, and diversity, and felt like my current work place is not a great fit when I’m looking for those values.”) is not a good enough reason for interviewers. Plus they might bristle at the words inclusion and diversity, but in my experience, I really don’t want to work for a place that finds those words offensive.

    My dad is a smart guy but we are in different fields and I know there’s gotta be some truth to what he says maybe? But which one is the advice I should be following?

    1. Jimming*

      Why would you stay there for 2 years? If it’s a toxic environment start looking now. Depending on your field, getting spit on is not normal. You’re the one working there, not your dad.

      1. Do I follow dad’s advice?*

        I guess I would stay for me to not look like a job hopper? I really want to find somewhere to stay for longer than two years (I almost made it in my last job, but then came the move timing.) I don’t think this is normal at all for my field. AT ALL. That’s what really set me off as “Oh. Ok. This is gone from bad to absurd.”

    2. Eillah*

      Your dad doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Stop trusting his judgement in this regard and start looking for a new job immediately.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        My dad was in the military his whole life too. No way would he expect me to gut it out in a place like that. Being deliberately spit on at work is not a thing that happens in 99.9999% of offices, so no, it’s not a normal expectation. Your dad’s advice is wrong regardless of his background. You’re in a terrible work environment and you should get out now before your work ethic is tainted.

        Obviously it’s best if you don’t have to take a pay cut or worse benefits to get a new position, but in your specific case it definitely sounds worth the risk. Incidentally I moved a lot (all cross country in the US) early in my career and had several jobs in the 1 to 1.5 year range, and it has never been a problem. Do what is best for you, which is GTFO of an environment you dread.

        1. Do I follow dad’s advice?*

          That’s good to know! How many jobs did you have in the 1 to 1.5 year range until you found a place you worked at longer? And what field are you in? (I’m just wondering if my path is not abnormal.)

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Nope nope nope nope nope nope you don’t stay in that environment for any amount of time to boost your resume.

      You have a history of moving cities, so therefore you have a good reason to have left the others. So this one being just seven months is not a huge flag in most senses.

      Your dad is wrong. You don’t need to “toughen up” and accept vile, unacceptable behavior in a job. This isn’t war, this isn’t the military, this isn’t life or death. IN NO WORK SPACE SHOULD YOU BE EVER SPIT ON AND ACCEPT IT AND A WAY TO TOUGHEN UP. Omg my head is going to explode right now.

      Your dad is so far out to lunch on this one. Stop talking to him about work and accepting his advice. Be vague and just look for a new job. Your dad has no idea what work life is if he is giving you this advice, unless he’s used to working in a prison setting. If you’re a CO, by all means, you may get spat on.

      1. Do I follow dad’s advice?*

        I always thought the moving would be a red flag (even though I had good reasons to move in my mind – school, better job, then long term partner) but that’s good to know! I think it would be a good idea to keep it vague about work… The stress of getting unsolicited advice daily about what I should do to toughen up at work is getting to me on top of my job. Thanks for the advice!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          No. What?! Moving happens for a lot of reasons. Including school and family!

          Also culture fit is absolutely a thing that most companies completely understand in general. They don’t want people who don’t fit in there either.

    4. animaniactoo*

      No. You do not need to ever stick out a job where a co-worker spits on another one.

      Military life is VERY VERY different from professional office life.

      As for why you’re looking, it would be fine to say that the job turned out to be significantly different than advertised and you’re looking for something that has more emphasis on team dynamics. I wouldn’t emphasize the inclusion and diversity upfront, but you can be on the lookout for it and team dynamics is enough to say “work well together”.

      Focus more on finding another place that you can feel reasonably comfortable that you’ll be able to stay there for 2 years than trying to stick out 2 years at this place. Staying 2 years at this place could actually set you back in terms of what you could be learning and the network you could be building so that’s another good argument for pulling the cord and getting out of there.

      1. Do I follow dad’s advice?*

        That’s a good way to phrase it! I guess he was right about the diversity and inclusion mention in interviews. If they ask me to elaborate more, can I bring up the inclusion? (Once I applied to a health equity position so this felt OK to bring up there.) Or should I bring up other words that indicate that without saying it? It’s just as a person of color this is really important to me, and in this workplace inclusion is low on the totem pole. I will definitely set my sights on a place where I can feel comfortable enough to stay for a while! At least if there’s no spitting and yelling, I can feel happier.

        1. alphabet soup*

          The thing about asking about things like diversity and inclusion is that no one is ever probably going to give you an honest answer– they’re going to tell you what you want to hear (“oh, of course, we celebrate all cultures here!” yadda yadda), so it’s not not necessarily the best way to get a sense of whether or not the company is actually a welcoming place for women/poc/woc.

          I think the best way to learn about that is to look at who actually works there– does the team you’d be working seem diverse? Who is in management and leadership positions at the company– is there a relatively fair gender balance, are POC represented, or is it mostly white men? It can also be helpful to ask about what kind of learning, development, and mentoring programs they have available. Those programs will most likely be available for all employees, but it can be helpful to know because 1. it tells you if the company actually cares about its employees, and 2. women/poc/woc tend to be more successful at organizations when the company has these kind of programs available. And lastly, it can be helpful to ask if the organization has an employee groups/affinity groups– if the company is generally supportive of employees and diversity, they should have at least one employee diversity group.

    5. Jaid*

      He means well, but you’re working with people who spit on you. No one should have to put up with it.

    6. Psyche*

      I think “I prefer not to be spit on by coworkers” is a good enough reason. Get out soon or it can really mess with your idea of normal and cause you to develop bad habits.

    7. MeganTea*

      You’re dad is not the one working in this toxic job. You are. AND OMG SPITTING?!?! You need to leave. This job is straight up toxic, and I’d be worried that staying there will warp your boundaries and professional norms. Not to mention the toll that the constant stress is taking on you. Maybe your dad would be fine toughing this out — but you gotta do what is right for YOU.

    8. fposte*

      Oh, yikes. Yeah, go.

      There’s a tiny seed of rightness in what your father says, in that you won’t be as strong for some jobs as somebody with a three-year stint with growth in one place would be. But you also won’t be as strong in three years if you stay in a job where this kind of shizz happens, so it makes more sense to leave now.

    9. Do I follow dad’s advice?*

      Thanks everyone for the advice! I would probably say yeah, this workplace is toxic and I won’t be listening to my dad’s advice on this particular topic (but yes to getting my car fixed and home loans and what not.) Thanks for the moment of clarity!

    10. Amethystmoon*

      You shouldn’t have to accept people spitting, that’s ridiculous. However, it may take a while to find a better job, so search discretely and keep your head down at work.

    11. Really? I didn't know that!*

      nonononononononono – just STOP! no one deserves to be in an environment where name calling and spitting in anger is acceptable. You most certainly can leave the job for another job with lower pay and less benefits. One of the great things about being an adult is you can set the rules around what is and is not acceptable in your life. Cultural fit at an organization is a key driver these days, so that is a perfect reason to be looking.

      Your dad means well, he wants to make sure you have a job and benefits, but he’s out of touch with reality. I’m also side-eyeing the comment that the work world is hard and sometimes people might spit on you……maybe in some specific jobs, but your standard office job, no one should be doing that.

      Good Luck!

    12. blink14*

      I stayed at my last job, my first full time, year round job out of college, for way, way, WAY too long. There were certain circumstances that contributed to this – the recession (I got the job just before things went downhill), wanting to stick it out for a few years to gain stability on my resume and skills, and living in a large city with a lot of higher education institutions, it became really difficult to find a new job once the recession was in full swing.

      At the time, I felt like I had no back up from my family (I was single and living with roommates) on leaving with no job prospect. Hindsight is always 20/20, but I think my parents would have given me some financial support, and I would have to majorly hussle with temp jobs while finding something permanent.

      The last couple of years at that job went from bad to worse. It was a very small office/location – 2 people in the office, myself and my boss, and 2 maintenance staff, with the home office in a different state. Me and the 2 maintenance staff were screamed at on a weekly, and often daily, basis, health insurance was just bearable, PTO was average but hard to use, etc. Had I not gotten my current job when I did, I think I would’ve walked out of that job within a couple of months. Sometimes you have to take a leap, especially when a job is grinding you into the ground.

      If you really feel you need to take whatever comes your way, make sure you think long and hard about a salary decrease. I had a friend do this and she was, no joke, back at her old job within a year (at a lower salary rate than previous), because the salary hit to go to another organization was too great. Also think about benefits – another place may have a slightly less salary, but if the benefits package exceeds where you are now, it’s likely worth it just from that angle.

    13. dealing with dragons*

      as an fyi, spitting on someone can be construed as assault in some jurisdictions (probably most), just like someone putting hands on you.

      just cause you’re at work doesn’t mean you lose basic rights.

    14. Fortitude Jones*

      Don’t listen to anything he’s saying, especially this part:

      He says I need to toughen up and the work world is hard and sometimes people might spit on you,

      I have NEVER been spit on in all my years of working (if I had, I’d be writing this from jail), and I’ve known no one else who has had this happen to them either unless they worked at a prison or some kind of mental health facility or hospital, and it was a patient or inmate who did it. Coworkers spitting on each other? No, not a thing in a functional workplace. You need to find a new job. Your script for why you’re leaving is also a good one (and of pressed for further elaboration, I’d bring up the spitting incident as factually and unemotionally as possible because the interviewer will completely understand why you want out of that toxic waste dump of a company).

    15. So anonymous I'm not even here*

      Yikes – no, you absolutely do not need to stay there. Your office sounds like it could be as toxic as the person who wrote in to say she bit a coworker – and when she apologized to someone who had witnessed it they couldn’t see why she was bothered that she had done that.

      Can you get temp work to tide you over while you’re job searching? Otherwise ramp up the job search and get the heck out of there.

  80. AvonLady Barksdale*

    I am about to finish (well, later this afternoon) my first full week of working remotely. I’m getting into a rhythm slowly but surely. Things I love so far:

    – No commute. I’m waking up at the same time I did when I was in the office, but now I have plenty of time to go to the gym for 20 minutes and sit around drinking my tea (I always made time for breakfast at home, now it’s just more leisurely)
    – No annoying co-workers bugging me about random crap while I’m trying to concentrate
    – If there is a break in the day, I can lie down and nap for 10 minutes (I am a very skilled power-napper)
    – Eating at my kitchen table instead of my desk
    – Mid-afternoon doggy walks
    – The ability to stand up at the end of the day and pour a glass of wine right away (also filed under: no commute)

    Things I don’t love so far:
    – My chair. I need a new chair. Any recommendations?
    – The temptation to start work extra early, which I have done two days in a row now and need to quit doing
    – The dog when he whines for love and I am on a call
    – The inability to take full advantage of the wonderful public spaces in my building because I need two screens
    – Three of my co-workers, whom I have IM’d many, many times in the last several days
    – The recognition that my wardrobe will consist of jeans and tanks until further notice (I am getting dressed every day so I can go outside for lunch and walks, but the level of dressiness has diminished)

    So far, I’m pretty happy with this arrangement and I feel very, very fortunate that it was made available to me.

    1. Brownie*

      Chair rec: Steelcase Leap2 if you can afford it. Can adjust in so many different ways, has a proper back instead of one of those weird mesh ones, and is so comfortable it’s the chair that the cube scavengers descend upon as soon as someone leaves permanently. Comes in a large size too which is the most coveted around here since it lets people shift and sit sideways/angled so they’re not rigid and locked into one position all day.

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      Spend the money on the chair – you will not regret it
      I live in the trifecta of the big 3 US office manufacturers so all of them have outlet stores where I live. Hunt down a showroom if you can to see if they have any that were returned for reasons having nothing to do with function. Check the online stores as well. I would look for Herman Miller Embody or Aeron, Haworth’s Zody (my current chair).

      1. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        The only thing I’d say here is don’t get an Ikea Markus. I bought one because it was the only semi-affordable tall back chair I could get, and it has not held up well at all. Also I ended up taking the arms off because it wouldn’t fit under my desk otherwise. I guess it’s survived OK for being about 10 years old, but I bought a chair at Staples in 2000 that my Dad still uses in his home office and it’s in better shape than this one.

    3. KoiFeeder*

      There’s a joke letter in here about “my coworker won’t stop licking my face,” I think (although I’m pretty sure the AAM policy on joke letters is don’t do it, since she’s already got a full inbox and not enough time).

      1. Windchime*

        My coworker always wants to sit on my lap while I’m trying to work from home. I’m fine with it, but I end up with long hair all over me afterwards.

    4. AnOtterMouse*

      My partner has work that requires 2 screens. He bought (and I believe was reimbursed for) a USB-powered second screen that is super lightweight and fits in his laptop bag. He uses it for travel, at co-working spaces, outside, everywhere.

      Maybe that could be an option to improve your public space working!

      1. AvonLady Barksdale*

        Aren’t those things cool? I heard about them recently from a friend who works from home. I don’t think I could get the company to pay for it, but I wish I could. If I stay here long-term, I might look into it anyway.

    5. fhqwhgads*

      Chair: if it’s in your price range, Herman Miller Aeron. If that’s too high, and your main priority with the chair is comfort over looks, I’ve read a few articles suggesting many “gamer” chairs are actually super comfy for office chair purposes.

  81. IV*

    I requested to be able to work remotely since I don’t work on a team and my day-to-day duties don’t involve working with other people. Manager came back the next week saying that Grand Boss approved it as long as I would call every morning and tell my manager what I planned on accomplishing that day and call again before I logged off for the day reporting what I had accomplished.

    Beyond irked. Feel like I’m being treated like a child.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Do you think your manager will actually require you to do that? In reality, I’d think your manager will follow through for a few days and then tell you that it isn’t necessary.

      1. IV*

        I’ve worked remotely a few times now and yes, it has been required and it has always been a phone call. I’ve sent an e-mail once saying summarizing the info they wanted and was met with “Are you available to hop on a phone call?” reply.

    3. TPS Report Coversheet*

      Remember to rig a dippy-bird to peck on your keyboard space, as they probably will monitor you through a messenger and go ballistic if you spend 5 minutes away.

      1. Amethystmoon*

        You can set a lot of messenger programs to never show Away. However, some workplaces do protect them.

    4. RandomU...*

      This sounds like something that will eventually go away. I would do it if working remotely is a bonus for you. Grandboss isn’t comfortable with the idea, but is willing to try it. I would negotiate for IM instead, and let your boss know it’s a more instant form of communication.

      I would also over communicate with your boss at the start. So maybe there’s a non urgent question that you would normally wait until you were otherwise talking to your boss to slip in. Make a point to IM the question when it comes up instead. Keep to your deadlines relentlessly. And proactively check in from time to time.

      I’m guessing your boss is ok with this since they went to bat. So this will just give them a little more ammunition when grand boss checks how it’s working.

    5. Me and Eva*

      I think it’s new to them possibly, so focus on the fact that they are willing to try it out, and this likely unnecessary step makes them more comfortable with the idea. I’d bet that as they get more comfortable, the phone calls will get old/will be inconvenient and will be discontinued. Yep, it’s a PITA in the meantime, but you have some influence over making the phone calls obsolete. Unless they are the kind of managers who stick with rules no matter what, I imagine this could well be temporary.

    6. Kathenus*

      Agree with the email approach. I was hired for a new role at an organization years back and my grandboss asked for a written weekly summary of my significant tasks and achievements for TWO YEARS! It was nuts, and I was able to eventually get it rolled back (probably should have asked to do so a lot earlier than I did), but I can see where she was coming from to some degree since they had budgeted for a brand new role.

      Hopefully you can move from daily to weekly, and phase out over time. But considering how many people on this forum wish they could get remote jobs, I think you just grin and bear it.

    7. Mr. Shark*

      Yes, I had a situation like that in which I asked to work off-site (and out of town) due to some health situations, and I was asked for a task list that I planned to complete, even though 90% of the time I am not sitting in the same place as my boss. It felt childish because I obviously have been completing my work without supervision for a long time. I would certainly bristle at the idea that I had to check in every morning and every night, but I think that’s there way of making sure you’re putting in your 8 hours/day.

      Hopefully that will go away soon.

    8. Windchime*

      You’re fortunate to be allowed to work full-time remotely. I floated the idea to my manager and she said, “That’s not going to happen.” So it’s not something that my manager will even entertain, let alone advocate for.

      I would take the win, as someone else suggested. They will get tired of the phone calls after awhile, I’m sure.

  82. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    I’m having a tough time dealing with one of my coworkers. He only talks of booze and sex, and constantly floods the unofficial office chat (which has everybody but the owners and my team leader, who everyone hates) with pics of everything he drinks, women cleaveges and screenshots of all his Tinder matches. It’s getting really annoying seeing his drunk face after an evening of +100 texts, boasting of all the “hot mamas” he gets and how we “need to have some fun”. Is there anything I can do that doesn’t include.. well… murder?

    1. Psyche*

      Does this chat have the ability to silence certain people so that it won’t show up to you? That might be easiest. If not, talk to some of your other coworkers and see if they feel the same way. Whoever is closest to him can ask him to tone it down or you can start responding with how inappropriate things are when he posts those things. If it still persists, make a second chat without him.

    2. alphabet soup*

      Talking about sex and posting sexual photos in a work context definitely ventures into sexual harassment territory. Can you talk to him directly about this, and maybe mention that it’s coming off that way (as harassment)? If he doesn’t respond to that, might be worthwhile to loop in a manager or HR.

      1. ArtK*

        I’m not sure I’d go to him first in this case. Guys who think that crap is ok aren’t usually open to “give it a rest, bro.” At the very least, someone in management needs to know that this has been going on for some time. Even if he were to stop today, there’s likely a long record of what he’s done and that’s still a liability for the company.

        1. alphabet soup*

          You’re right that talking to him probably won’t get him to stop. But in my experience, when you report stuff like this to higher-ups, the first question they ask is, “did you make the person aware that you were uncomfortable?” or something to that effect. It’s CYA to show that you didn’t go along with or encourage the behavior so it’s clear that it was 100% unwelcome. (To be fair, I’ve been in a lot of dysfunctional environments. A functional workplace might handle this better without the need for CYA.)

    3. ArtK*

      Boob pictures and sex talk? It may be an “unofficial” channel but it’s still connected to work. Start with your supervisor and move on to HR. This is a potential liability for the company.

    5. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Aaaaaand during the night he sent a explicit oral sex gif. Yuck. Also, we’re a small company that has no HR. And I’m the only woman.

      1. ArtK*

        Oooh… not good. Both the explicit picture and the environment.

        If you think that the person at the top of the food chain would be sympathetic, you might bring it up with them (via channels if necessary), or you could talk to an employment lawyer. Both of those are “nuclear” options that would likely end your career there, even if you succeed in getting the garbage stopped. You’ll be “That Woman Who Ruined Our Fun.”

        Or, you could block him or otherwise remove yourself from the chat. That can have consequences too. See the post from a month or so ago about the all-male golf retreat; lots of good stuff about why that is a bad idea. You would be self-selecting out, meaning that you could be cutting yourself out of some opportunities.

        Final possibility: Polish your resume and start looking.

  83. Stephanie*

    I just switched to a new role as part of an early career rotational program. Any tips for how to navigate the rotation? (This is my first time in a rotational program.)

    1. hermit crab*

      I have no advice, but will be following this! My husband’s job involves similar kinds of rotations and I’m sure he’d appreciate any tips.

  84. Courageous Clementine*

    Clash of the Directors S1.E8

    The week started off rather quiet. We had a small staff meeting, of 4 staff, incorporating a review of the Board retreat that I didn’t attend (being a part-time staff). From the Executive Directors (ED) perspective it was very productive, an the Development Director (DD) felt the same, but I could sense there was something off with the Programs Director (PD). But I didn’t know what it was until Tuesday.

    As I mentioned, we’re losing 3 offices, of 8 total offices. It’ll save us $20k/year and with only 7 staff (and
    1 part-time contract accountant), we can all move down a bit. I mentioned that while we’re saving money on a
    physical office, no upgrades have been made to mobile offices especially for our programs staff – an ongoing issue.
    Previous ED misspent grant money restricted for technology so nothing has been done, even since the new ED has arrived. Supposedly we’ve inherited semi-current laptops from another affiliate but our contract IT hasn’t even touched them yet.

    Monday, the DD and I had a very good ‘what about you’ conversation, mostly about our post-high school college/work ventures. It was nice to learn more about her, and while we have a lot in common, our major difference is my positive people skills and her lack thereof.

    Tuesday, the PD shared what happened at the Board meeting (before the Board retreat) and the budget that was presented to the Board for approval. One Bd member asked if the staff were to receive raises. The ED said that wasn’t currently in the budget as performance plans were not in place. The Bd member asked the PD about this, to which the PD said that staff had not received a salary increase (not even a COLA) for two years. To which the ED chimed in, “But you received an incentive this year.” The incentive was given by the previous ED to encourage staff to stay on through the ED transition. Turns out the previous ED wasn’t going to pay out and only did when staff pressured him, considering they all signed a paper outlining the incentive (and turns out the hourly staff member didn’t receive hers which was a violation of the agreement made by the salaried staff).

    The PD determined the year-long leadership program, the ED enrolled herself in, was in the proposed budget. Had the PD stayed on, she still would not have been able to attend the national conference, per the ED saying there wasn’t enough budget, yet there’s enough budget for a $2800 leadership class? The PD also noted, as she was waiting to hear that her contract for her new job was signed, that when she let the ED know she was looking for another opportunity to meet her family needs, that the ED never countered with an offer of more pay or flex time. The PD felt that the ED not fighting for her was the message she needed to know she was doing the right thing looking for a new job.

    (this next topic might be controversial….) Everyone knows that the ED’s pay is in the public tax form 990. I reviewed the 990 before I interviewed, but not knowing the scope of responsibility, I couldn’t accurately frame the ED’s salary or compensation. The PD, in frustration of budget shortfall, smaller offices, poor technology, no raises, and doing more with less, mentioned the ED’s pay/compensation which includes a hefty car allowance, as well as the salary of the DD. Both salaries are higher than their predecessors despite that neither the ED or DD have experience in their roles. Of course, being at the Bd meeting, the PD was privy to this information. I don’t usually balk at ED compensation because I know how much work goes into the role and I don’t want to compare my time as an ED to this ED’s role, but somethings not right. The previous ED (who was no good anyway) had worked his way up to the pay level after 20+ years with the brand; our current ED has no experience other than being a marketing director with a non-profit for 15 years. The DD salary is $20K more than the previous DD who had 10 years with the brand and worked their way up from programs to fundraising. The PD salary is $30k lower than the newly minted DD salary which disincentivizes a 3-yr PD who, with her and one staff member, have been doing the job of three (and still managed to make their numbers which makes the ED believe they can do it again this next fiscal year).

    Since Tuesday it’s been very quiet; the ED is on vacation and the DD has packed her activity list with lunches and coffee with potential event sponsors. She’s finally getting out of the office to meet people!

    Our Program associate (PA) returned from a well deserved week vacation cruise with friends. The PD and I spent (don’t hate me) hours catching up and discussing upcoming year. Much like an extended department meeting. It was nice to get to know them better. It’s been a while since I worked with coworkers I liked (and will miss).

    1. WellRed*

      I agree with much of the PD’s frustration, but I think she’s off-base with the whole idea that the ED should have “fought” for her. I also think you are going to see more of this new ED enriching herself at the expense of the organization.

      1. Courageous Clementine*

        Good morning!

        It’s possible, in the self-interested of the ED we believe might be happening, that she didn’t fight for the PD because she wants to change the situation to two staff vs one paid staff. The ED believes that we’ll get more done with three than two (which is true) but that moves the oversight/directorship to the Dev Director rather than someone with program knowledge. That’s 3-yrs of experience down the drain. Hiring for this position will be challenging and we’ll be behind the curve going into the new school year (unless we hire former teachers).

        I think the ED should have at least put up a counter offer – which I know the ED knew we didn’t have it in the budget- in order to be able to even increase this upcoming years service numbers if not keep the PD’s wealth of knowledge.

        I’m not sure how, if we do to two program staff members, they’ll be able to function in the field without a decent laptop or hotspot access which we don’t have now.

        I love “enriching herself”. Perhaps, since she wants a lighter laptop to take to the national conference, she’ll get on the IT guys to fix/install the hand-me-down laptops. We could all use them.

  85. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

    I posted a few weeks ago about whether or not I should go to an interview with blue hair. https://www.askamanager.org/2019/06/open-thread-june-7-8-2019.html#comment-2508070

    I am proud to say I went as myself, rocked the interview, and I am their top candidate. No mentions about expectations of changing my hair. No mentions of it at all actually. In the middle of salary negotiations presently. Thank you to everyone who shared their insights with me.

    Also, this is a job that one would think you might need to go a more conservative route, so I have been pleasantly surprised. I actually think the blue hair helped a bit since one of the questions I always ask is, “what characteristics does someone need to have to be successful in this position?” Two things they said was, “open-minded and non-judgmental.” I had actually already mentioned previously that I tried to emulate those 2 traits. I think that along with my blue hair sort of showing I am open-minded might have sealed it for me.

    1. peachie*

      That’s fantastic! I’ve found people are much more nonchalant about weird hair colors than I would’ve thought, even in more traditional office settings. It’s nice.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        Definitely! This is an assistant director position as well, so not talking entry level. I do think the fact that it would involve working with troubled youth also helped me appear more relatable.

    2. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

      Yay! Congrats! I’m seriously considering dying my white hairs blue, as I’m a brunette and anything greyish stands out.

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        You should do it! I have a ton of grey including a prominent Rogue like streak. I am not a huge fan of it (my grey hair, I have seen many other people that rock the grey looking fabulous) even though other people tell me to embrace it. I’m not there yet.

        1. Windchime*

          I’m trying to grow out my hair to the natural gray, and it’s not fun. I’ve got about 5″ of roots. The ends of my hair (at least on the top layer) are pretty blonde so it’s not a really harsh line, but I worry about the grow-out looking unprofessional. Fortunately, I work for a university so they seem to be pretty chill about it.

  86. GigglyPuff*

    Found out I didn’t get the museum job I was really excited for, it was just so different than what I’d been applying to, which had all essentially been the same job just different places. But they were really nice and I understand their decision, but it was rough, especially since I know I probably wasn’t as on as I could have been. But my brain sometimes just doesn’t function efficiency as it could some days, ADHD and other stuff, and unfortunately looking back I think it was a little bit of one of those days.

    I’ve had six interviews in the last 3/4 months, four of them out of state, all academic except museum which means longer wait times. I’m so burned out, I’ve been looking and applying for 2 1/2 years. (Which also means I’ve been burning through my PTO which bums me out) But the last few months have been rough having all those interviews going on, and I was so excited about the museum one, I knew I might backslide in my depression. So that night I immediately went home and tried to jump back into my projects I haven’t touched since February, and signed up for volunteering to be around puppies tonight. Seems to be working.

    1. peachie*

      I’m sorry, that sounds disheartening. But yay for puppies and yay for projects, and good on you for taking care of yourself!

  87. Alex T*

    First time posting here!

    I’ve been living and teaching in Asia for the last two years now, and I’d like to return to the States and have a job as soon as possible when I arrive in early August. I’m specifically looking for bank teller positions. Is a month before I arrive the right time to apply? I’m a little worried that if I say I’m not available until August, it’ll hurt my chances, but I also know it can take some time to get through the application process.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I suggest start applying now, focusing on jobs that are interesting to you. Make it clear where you’ll be living/landing. Worst case scenario, they pass on your application for some reason (which may have nothing to do with you not being available until August). Best case scenario, you receive a job offer.

      The downside to applying now is potential job hunt burnout, but that’s probably a risk no matter when you start searching, I’m afraid :/

  88. akaDaisy*

    I’ve been at my current position for almost 9 years and have gotten serious about moving on. There are plenty opportunities for more responsibilities here but no room for advancement, and for this company advancement is the only route to significant pay increases.

    I find myself in the pickle of what to do about references, though. I’m applying on the DL and don’t want my employer to know I’m resigning until I have an offer. I’ve worked under the same 2 VPs my entire tenure (no room above for advancement as a result) so there are no former “this job” managers I can use. The manager from my previous position 10 years ago was the company owner and he shut his doors and picked up stakes during the recession.

    Short of peer and fellow non-profit board members, I’m at a loss for what to do for my references. Any thoughts?

    1. Lady Dedlock*

      Any other senior colleagues who could speak to your work—preferably people who have left your current organization? I’m in a similar situation, and that’s what I’m planning to do when the time comes.

    2. Tansy*

      This may be quite late – but I was in the same position. I used a manager who I had only done one piece of work for, and then a peer. Because all of my direct managers were owners.

  89. Unexpected Dragon*

    Any one have any advice for gently pushing out an employee who is ‘fine’ but not good. They get the work done and on time, but need immense amounts of hand holding when starting anything. They are prone to whining/pouting and take a huge amount of emotional care that is just really out of step with the rest of the organization.

    I know they want out, as they have mentioned it previously and when I ask about career long term planning, they only ever suggest learning skills that, while standard in the field, are totally not and will not be used at our organization.

    I would really like if they just chose to move gently on and go somewhere else, so I can hire someone who is more curious about the work, more willing to learn, and not nearly as much of an office dark cloud. (For what it’s worth, I don’t need someone to be living sunshine at work, but I would really like to get through the day without exaggerated sighs, complainants about the company’s structure, and general eye rolls when asked to do a new task.)

    1. Anathema Device*

      “I would really like to get through the day without exaggerated sighs, complainants about the company’s structure, and general eye rolls when asked to do a new task.”

      Maybe tell them exactly this?

    2. MoopySwarpet*

      I think you have to just bite the bullet and terminate them. We had a person we told needed to “start looking elsewhere” and 6 weeks later we had to finally just tell them their time was up. For all you know, this person may be actively looking, but the process takes a long time.

    3. Kathenus*

      Be clear what they need to improve on – ‘I need you to be able to do xx and yy tasks without seeking assistance. Professional communication here is important, xx and yy behaviors don’t meet this standard so you need to improve in this area to be successful.’ Set out clear, preferably written, expectations. Point out their strength areas as well, also in writing if possible. Make sure that they know that fulfilling all of these are part of success in the job and then allow them every chance to succeed. If not, document and keep open the communication on how they’re doing, and then if they can’t fulfill the whole job including these types of behaviors, then you have a more solid reason/footing to use discipline and/or termination for not fulfilling the duties needed.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Agreed! Please do set goals that are important to success in the role. Don’t set goals in a punitive way (i.e. goals that are about managing them out) as everyone is watching and will note if you try to manage someone out. Instead, set goals from a neutral, “Here is where you need to be to perform at the level you need to perform at.”

  90. Rick*

    Super general question, but how do you get a measure on how your boss is feeling about you?

    I’ve been at my current company for over a year now. At the start, my boss was super ecstatic to work with me, but over the last few months he seems to have cooled off. I’m getting a lot of mixed feedback (lots more comments on changes I make, but at the same time, compliments like “it took several months to get this right the first time, and you’re moving much quicker than the last guy.”), and we’ve had to skip our last one on one. I have a couple of hypotheses on why that might be (his workload increasing, us having to let go a new hire who caused a lot of difficulty) and only one of them is “he’s unhappy with my attitude or quality of work.” But still, I’d like to clear the air if there is anything he’s unhappy with. So, for example, what should I say if he wants to skip our next one on one?

    Thanks everyone.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      After you’re “settled” into a role, which sounds like you are given it’s been over a year, your management facetime/interactions will usually cool down like this. There’s no reason for him to be hovering, checking work over and over again and he now trusts you to do things right.

      It’s kind of like when you are dating and the first little bit, you’re attached and want to go out every single day and never be apart. Then you get married and you are like…not in that attached at the hip life anymore.

      He knows you are trust worthy and “get it” therefore he can spend his energy elsewhere, since his duties have increased.

      I think that if he starts regularly missing your one on ones, you should speak up about that and say that you appreciate that you’re able to navigate on your own for a lotof stuff, you still benefit from the face-time and making sure nothing is slipping into the cracks due to lack of general oversight.

    2. Ali G*

      How often are your one-on-ones? Weekly? Maybe space them out a little more – he might think there isn’t as much to cover as there once was. Also, if you do want to speak to him now, and not wait until the next one, you should offer to reschedule it.

    3. Kathenus*

      I have a new boss and in our initial meeting when asked what I needed from him, I said I need feedback, positive and constructive – so that I know that I’m meeting his expectations. I said I didn’t need it on every little thing but especially if there’s areas I need to improve I really want to know he’ll talk to me so that I don’t get into my own head and fill in the blanks in lieu of actual information from him. So far it’s working.

  91. designbot*

    My office is doing an engagement survey using a third party system (culture amp, if that means anything to anyone). We’ve had issues over the years, include bad blood from a recent re-org, low level but pervasive sexism that’s difficult to pin down and eradicate, lack of transparency that leaves lots people with a various grudges and misperceptions… so I’m really glad they’re doing this. The survey is meant to be anonymous, and casual conversation with our HR team leads me to believe it really is (I asked if there was anyone on my team I should be pushing to complete, they didn’t know who had or hadn’t). When I talk to people though, many don’t trust the anonymity and have soft pedaled their feedback as a result. This is so frustrating! If they tell management that everything’s rosy, then there’s no chance anything will ever get fixed. Additionally those who were more open may look like we’re the problems! I feel like I’ve just lost at prisoner’s dilemma because I was too trusting and the other prisoner sold me out.
    So for anyone whose company has gone through this, tell me your stories! How did this go for you? Was it actually anonymous? Did anything actually change in the aftermath of this? Thank you!!

    1. Art3mis*

      I’ve done several over the years and even worked for a company that would do the surveys. I’ve never gotten any blow back from being honest on the surveys.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      If you are in a large department and aren’t in a class of your own (employed under one year, the only hourly employee…) then its unlikely that they can pick part who said what. The surveys collect all this demographic data and break it into categories and I’ve known managers that connect the dots to see who said what.
      But I feel like if you would say it to your CEO if they asked your opinion, then you should feel confident in writing it in the survey.

      1. designbot*

        Oh my own anonymity is shot on this one, as I brought up a situation that is unique to me but absolutely had to be addressed. I’m more concerned with the assumption so many other people seem to be making that they can’t be honest. I worry that it’ll skew the results more positive than people are actually feeling and convince leadership that nothing is actually wrong, or that the few people who were more honest are the problematic ones. Do companies understand how fearful people are? Like the way a doctor assumes you drink more than you admit to? Or do they take it literally?

        1. AndersonDarling*

          In reality there are two types of companies that do employee surveys. 1. The companies that really, really want to make changes and they send the survey to find out what exactly they need to address, and 2. companies that think this, but they will interpret any results as saying that everything is awesome and management is the bee’s knees.
          Unfortunately, leadership will only see what they are prepared to see. I’ve seen HR take horrible satisfaction results and filter them to the 1st year employees and present those results to make everything look great. “We want to just focus on the new hires for now on, so we only need to look at their results.”
          But you should feel good about speaking the truth. At least you recorded it and hopefully someone will see it and react.

    3. CatMintCat*

      My employer does a “People Matter” survey every year. My employer is well known for its corrupt and bullying tactics in handling dissenters and its protection of the higher ups who are corrupt bullies (my small workplace is fine). The survey requires us to log in with out employment account before we access it. I’ve never met anyone who will admit to having completed it.

    4. Name mean amen*

      We used culture amp for our last survey. I think it depends on how it’s set up, but our company was able to filter the results by office location and some other characteristics depending on if we had at least 2-3 individuals in that group (e.g., gender, length of service).

      I don’t think it went well. Our office had been dealing with some issues, and the fact the responses were negative prompted a call from HR. It wasn’t a “what can we do better?” call so much as a “this is out of line for the organization, why is this negative”.

      I would check how the survey results are presented.

  92. Virginia Girl*

    I work on the 6th floor of an 11 story building. On Tuesday, I walk into my office and my coworker (who arrives about 30 minutes before me) walks up and says “Is creepy guy still out there?” I’m clearly confused and she’s like “trench coat and sunglasses dude who’s poking his head into the girls bathroom.” He’d left the floor before I’d gotten there. When my coworker reported him to building security, the response was that this wasn’t the first time that security had received complaints. Apparently, he works on the same floor as me.

    1. The New Wanderer*

      Uh, how does that guy still work there? I think the question to security is: if you keep getting reports about a specific and identifiable person’s unacceptable behavior, what are you planning to do about it? Otherwise I suspect it will be up to the women to track down where he works and report him to his management.

      1. Virginia Girl*

        He works for the government so maybe that’s why? I don’t work for the government. If it’s the fault of the government or not, UNACCEPTABLE.

        1. valentine*

          Is this a place that serves children? Either way, I would look up the local law and give my manager a chance to handle it before consulting the police.

          (I don’t understand the geography. He’s outdoors on the sixth floor?)

          1. AL (the other one)*

            Sounds like one of my old offices, where each floor had an open space by the lifts and stairs, and the bathrooms were there. The offices were through doors that required a key fob thingy to enter….

    3. Windchime*

      That is creepy.

      I work in a downtown high-rise. My organization takes up several floors. My floor is completely locked, but the other floor isn’t–anyone can stop the elevator there, without a fob. One morning, a coworker came to work early and found a homeless man, naked and bathing at the sink in the women’s restroom. I don’t think he meant any harm, but it was frightening anyway. The bathroom is now locked with a keypad.

  93. Botrick8*

    I’m in a data reporting role because I have experience with the data itself, but with very little background knowledge of how databases work I’ve been having a rough go so far. Anyone know of good resources that can bring me up to speed on database fundamentals quickly? Bonus points for Alteryx resources using database inputs as well, TIA!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Alteryx has really good interactive lessons at their website. They have a good pace and will probably teach you indirectly about databases and what users are trying to achieve when data modeling.

    2. TPS Report Coversheet*

      You also can go on youtube, there’s a lot of self-help and even cllege lesson tutorials on databases and Alteryx popped up pretty well.

      On databases in general, the ”For Dummies” series if you want an actual book to read.

      Oh and old trick, google ”database basics edu” – a lot of universities, especially the IT departments used to be the forerunners of putting coursematerials on the net. Some of those courses are a bit old, but the basics really haven’t changed. And you can get a good grasp of how stuff works.

      If you have a home computer, well, Access is a database so even if people diss it theres course materials out there you can set up your own lab to try out stuff. Otherwise MySQL installs pretty nicely. Oh and get Notepad ++, you can run it without installing and it highlights your SQL and is foolproof to copypaste with.

    3. Melody Pond*

      Maybe Databases Demystified by Andrew J. Oppel? I skimmed through it a bunch when I was trying to beef up my own knowledge, when I was trying to break into my first data analyst role. I borrowed it from the public library. It was also the textbook for a local community college class on databases (that’s how I heard about it, when I was researching that class).

  94. Confused Anon*

    I’m pretty introverted and quiet, but open up more once I feel comfortable. I’ve noticed that some coworkers talk to me one-on-one, but don’t acknowledge me when we’re in a group. One guy talks to me when no one else is around, but if the woman I work with is there, he only talks to her and not me.
    I work for a toxic, dysfunctional company, so I’m not sure if it’s them or me. It just reminds me of highschool where the popular guys would ignore me when their friends were around, but talk to me if we were alone.

    I’m not saying that I want to be best friends with anyone, I’m just confused as to why they talk to me one-on-one, but then act differently when others are around.

    Any thoughts?

    1. Anathema Device*

      Do you talk to him when others are around or are you waiting for him to make conversation? Is it possible that you could be contributing to the dynamic?

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I think that you’re internalizing a lot and reading way into the actions of others when they’re most likely not being malicious. Especially given that the toxic dysfunction you’re subjected to!

      People will always be closer to others and choose them over you at any given time if given the chance. It’s not because they’re being mean or icing you out. It’s because that’s their number one choice for whatever reason it is.

      Unless they’re being actually cruel to you and start saying rude things to you in the company of others, just not talking to you isn’t much to go on.

      I say this as someone who had to get away from the baggage I carried from HS where I was also a targeted bullied person at times, where they’d be cool until they had to put on a show and say “oh ew it’s you” when friends were present.

  95. Awkward anon*

    There is a new young woman in another department, “Jane”. She came into the kitchen area looking for paper towels and was cleaning up something. When she saw me, she asked for my help, but didn’t say what for. I asked, “Do you need help getting into the conference room?” (One needs a badge and I thought she forgot hers or something.) Jane then looked embarrassed and admitted that she needed someone to help her carry things into another area. I said, “Oh, sure!” and helped her.
    I don’t know if I embarrassed the poor thing or if she felt awkward, but the next time she needed help, she approached my coworker instead. I feel bad like I did something wrong or unknowingly embarrassed her, but I wasn’t sure what she needed help with. She didn’t say that she needed someone to help her carry things, so I was sort of guessing what she would need.

    Should I apologize for anything? I feel bad, but I wasn’t mean to her or anything.

    2. Nicki Name*

      She might have asked a different person to help her because she wants to spread her help requests around, rather than trying to claim too much of any one person’s time.

    3. irene adler*

      You did fine. You obtained clarification as to what she needed and then provided assistance. Perfect!

      She approached coworker because she most likely didn’t want to burden you excessively. You helped her out before and now it’s coworker’s turn to do so.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      What do you envision apologizing for? You didn’t do anything wrong or unkind. You asked a perfectly reasonable question and helped her willingly.

      If she was embarrassed or shy or nervous, that’s not something you did to her. It’s just her own feelings.

      Honestly, I think making an issue of it would embarrass her more.

  96. Lois out of her Lane*

    Advice wanted–am I out of touch?

    My best friend recently transitioned from a job with a lot of autonomy to one with a more traditional corporate structure and office environment. Essentially, she has no respect for her supervisor’s authority and I think she’s going to get fired over it.

    The supervisor does seem to be very sensitive to insubordination and makes a lot of annoying decisions–holding a hard line on policies when she doesn’t need to, micro-managing deadlines way in advance, asking invasive questions during leave requests, and is sometimes factually incorrect about pretty important things. My friend has openly disagreed with her supervisor and argued over policy interpretations, gone over her head more than once, and it has escalated to a point where almost every conversation is defensive from the get-go (her supervisor now ccs HR on everyday correspondence).

    My friend believes her boss has all the responsibility to de-escalate the situation, and that this kind of “petty hierarchy” has no place in the modern workplace. She feels her boss should respect her in order to earn respect in return. I agree her boss should be taking a different approach to the situation, but I also think my friend doesn’t realize that a lot of this is… kind of normal? And that there’s a super high chance she will get fired over this (in an employer’s market) even if she is technically good at her job?

    For context: I work in a very hierarchical place myself and am pretty comfortable undermining my boss on the down-low (mostly joking) rather than taking a stand everything that doesn’t make sense happens. I have put up with a lot of bad bosses, maybe more than I should have.

    Should I be saying something to my friend about her attitude here? Or is my role here to just acknowledge her frustration and say nothing?

    1. designbot*

      oof, yeah, she needs to pick her battles. And respect is a two way street! It’s not her boss’s job to earn her respect—her boss is entitled to her respect until proved otherwise, because someone with more experience and knowledge of the company than either of them decided that’s how things should be. It’s your friend’s job to impress her boss. I’m not meaning to say that the boss shouldn’t also be trying to be reasonable, approachable, etc. but the primary onus for this relationship falls to the lower ranked person.

      1. Lois out of her Lane*

        > her boss is entitled to her respect until proved otherwise

        I think this is the issue she’s having. My friend’s boss lost her respect because of how often the boss has pushed boundaries and has been wrong about things. I think my friend still needs to find a way to fake it if she wants to stick around.

      2. Kathenus*

        I try to default to the perspective that the role deserves respect, regardless of the person in it. So if I love my boss, they may get respect for that reason too, but even if I have one I don’t click with their position is due respect if I want to succeed in my job. Doesn’t mean that you don’t try to open up communication, improve things, but I agree with you that your friend’s perspective may not do well for her success in this position.

    2. Myrcallie*

      Oh boy. You’re on the money here- your friend needs to back down. Ultimately, whatever her feelings on her boss’ decisions, her boss is, well, /the boss/, and your friend needs to learn to listen and do what she’s told when she needs to.

      I’m currently in a similar position, and I’m job-hunting because the insistence on hardlining on policies and micro-managing everything is really getting to me, so I can totally understand how she feels. But while I’m here, I defer to my manager, because she’s still the one in charge. That doesn’t mean I don’t raise issues when I see them, and it doesn’t mean I never express disagreement, it just means that I do it respectfully and if I’m overruled, I accept it gracefully. If your friend can’t do that, then it’s probably time for her to start looking for something else.

    3. fposte*

      I think this falls under the “You can say something once” umbrella of friendship. “Jane, from my standpoint, you’re right on much of this, but you’re also going to lose; ultimately, your boss is the boss of you. If you think this is worth losing a job over, that’s a call you get to make, but I’m not sure, from the way you’re talking, if you’ve realized that’s a possibility here and what the consequences could be.”

      1. Lois out of her Lane*

        Thank you for the suggested script! This will hopefully help to remove some of my judgier thoughts from the conversation. She can either fight about how right she is (which she probably is!) or be employed there.

      2. MoopySwarpet*

        This is a good approach.

        Does she want to be right or does she want to work there? That’s pretty much what it comes down to.

        In life, respect is earned and a two way street. In a corporate world, it *should* be, too, but being blatantly disrespectful to superiors (or even more senior peers) isn’t going to do you any long term favors – even if they “started it.”

    4. Tinker*

      I’m pretty far on the “not a big believer in hierarchy” end of the spectrum in that I don’t put much value in showing a hugely different amount of deference to “the boss” specifically because they are “the boss” — but I think in most situations like that the solution is that everyone should get the better treatment rather than everyone getting the worst treatment.

      Like, in this case, seeing the supervisor as my peer on a human level — I would not say that openly expressing disagreement itself is a problem, but the way I’d ideally frame a disagreement with any peer would be “I favor this other thing for these reasons, but at the end of the day the important thing is moving forward somehow” — having straight-up arguments, going over the person’s head, and bringing in HR would not be my go-to solutions for reasons that have nothing to do with hierarchical deference.

      On the other hand, those solutions are on the menu if the problem is serious enough — some sorts of “factually incorrect about pretty important things” are more important than the prospect of getting fired. Also, while I do definitely believe in saying “nice doggy” until I have a suitable stick in hand and while I have somewhat higher-than-average expectations of my employers, what you’re describing to me does not seem normal and it’s something that I’d likely be actively looking for an exit over.

      So I’d say — it seems like you put up with a bit more than I would advise, but your friend seems a fair bit less strategic than I would advise. I’d say they might be advised to be more strategic, but also to me “CCing HR on everyday correspondence” seems to me like a pretty dire indicator so that point may be moot.

      1. Lois out of her Lane*

        “Strategic” is a great word here. Thank you for your perspective! I do think my friend feels similarly to you about seeing bosses as a peer on a human level and having high expectations of her workplace, which I really admire. But strategically, you’re right, I think she could be making different choices.

        (None of the factual errors (that she has told me about) have surrounded safety or legal matters–more along the lines of what kinds of things are covered under benefits, that someone on another team is asking for a different report than they asked for, etc. Things that matter and are worth clearing up, but in a more functional work relationship shouldn’t require constant escalation.)

    5. LQ*

      I have had friends refer to me as the broccoli of friends so take this with salt and cheese. I’d say something pretty directly. I’d point out that it’s a job the boss is paying for and while your friend can decree that “petty hierarchy has no place in the modern workplace” random decrees don’t actually change everyone through magic. So sometimes you pick a battle, or you go somewhere else, or you let stuff go. But here’s the thing, the boss is still the boss so hierarchy still matters.

      And then I’d just try to most talk about other stuff.

  97. Anon of Today*

    My colleague who sits next to me has a really messy desk. There are stacks of newspapers and other random papers, empty drinks bottles, random empty boxes and a lot of general crap (which is all covered in dust).

    We are provided with lockers for our items however colleague’s is left empty!
    Our manager will sometimes say, “You really need to tidy your desk”, which colleague begrudgingly does, however it’s back to looking disgusting only a few days later. I have stuff on my desk too, but I make sure it’s kept neat and looks tidy at all times. We sit on a bank of desks really close together with no partition walls.

    Is this something I can reasonably talk to my manager about? I worry about coming across as picky but it’s really unpleasant to have to sit next to colleague’s desk every day.

    1. Jaid*

      Empty bottles, boxes, and papers are an invitation to pests who love to hide among the detritus. If I were your manager, I’d insist that he throw out the trash for sanitary purposes.

    2. fposte*

      I think you’d have to focus on any food/drink detritus; just not liking that your co-worker’s desk is a mess is not really actionable.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agreed on the focus on food and bottle debris. I would also suggest talking to your colleague first, rather than going straight to your manager.

      A cheerful, “Hey, Coworker, could you toss your food debris and empty bottles each week? That stuff attracts pests and they squick me out. Thanks!” should work on a reasonable person.

    4. TPS Report Coversheet*

      Food and garbage is one thing. Piles of papers in an archeological strata… there are people who have a bit of a hoarders brain, or what I call a nest/den memory. It has to do with photographic memory forming. I have the same to a limit. Papers piled on my desk are not in any way ”messy”, they are ”exactly where I put them”. Does havoc around the house because if something gets moved I freak out because ”things disappear” and ”I can’t find anything”. So someone else tidying up is a no-no. I need to exactly put the stuff in its place and see it there, and I can go to say the attic 10 years from now, open a box, and find the thingamabobbie in a pile of 50 boxes. I had a professor in college with this. There was new furniture piled beside his office door and he told the janitors to piss off. When you went into his room there were buckling shelves and paper and floppy disks and folders… all relatively neatly piled, but piled. So I went in and to his desk where the oldest PC I’d seen was blinking lights, and asked my C project. Prof looks at me, says my name and class, and then goes and looks a few seconds at his shelf, pulls from the middle of a 50-high stack of floppy disks one, pops it in… ”ahh… yes here is a loop I dont like, fix that.”… I wasn’t the only one that came out that office a bit wide-eyed and in shock, but I was elated as I had witnessed ”my brain” working in someone elses head.

      And didn’t Einstein say ”if a cluttered desk is a sign of a cluttered mind, what is the sign of an empty desk?”

        1. valentine*

          They’re covered in dust, so, if it’s a system, it ain’t workin’, unless his objective is to trash Anon of Today’s lungs.

  98. peachie*

    This is perhaps both overly-vague and overly-specific, but I’m wondering if anyone has any advice on pursuing a truly flexible work schedule. I currently work full-time in data/healthcare. In the next few years, I’m looking to transition to a role that’s flexible, particularly re: hours/location worked. I have some creative, professional-but-not-lucrative pursuits that I need to have a more flexible schedule (particularly, the ability to sometimes work at night and sometimes during the day) to be able to do, and I’m trying to figure out how to make that work.

    Some ideas: consulting work, working part time, working full time for part of the year, working full time so long as I have flexibility in ‘shift’ (i.e., if I could do a standard ‘hours per day’ so long as it doesn’t matter which hours) . Working at home would be my preference, but the main thing I’m thinking of is flexibility in hours worked. Ideally, I’d find something project-based – the work I do now, although I do sometimes have to make time for meetings/discussions, is largely independent and could be done in non-standard hours. (I don’t think this is a possibility in my current role – I just mean that I could see something like that working.) If needed, I could probably get by on 2/3 of what I’m making (it would be tight, but we could make do). But of course, this would have to factor in additional costs (health insurance, paying my own taxes, etc.) that could come with a different working model.

    I have several certifications related to healthcare/EHRs that are logistically difficult to get, so I’m hoping those will help with self-marketability. I’m also strong in SQL (though my focus is on reporting – I’m not a DBA and don’t really want to go in that direction). I have a good amount of Tableau experience and I’m passable in rudimentary R. Due to the nature of my role, I have a solid understanding of healthcare, clinical medicine, and research and have co-authored a few medical studies. I don’t have any real programming skills, which feels like a limiting factor that I’m trying to rectify (though “where to start” is a bit overwhelming). I’m looking at possibly doing a master’s in data science while working, though I’m not sure it’s worth the time or money.

    Has anyone done anything like this? Is it even possible? Where would you start? I feel shamefully entitled asking this, but I just want a way to pursue the things that are actually fulfilling to me without starving.

    1. valentine*

      Freelancing?

      I’d be concerned about burning the candle every which way but loose and not having enough downtime.

  99. aggrieved (UK)*

    Anyone (especially UK readers) have any any experience raising a grievance? I work for on of the most well known employers in my country and, to cut a long story short, feel that I’m deliberately being denied a permanent position (currently temp-to-perm) so they can keep me on minimum wage, for a skilled admin position, and I am the only employee who doesn’t get to move up the pay scale when asked to take work above it.

    2. TPS Report Coversheet*

      Yeah, there should be a ”grievance procedure” laid out in the ”employee handbook” given out by the HR. But that is a ”should”. ACAS has a ”helpline online” that you can access from their pages, or you can go to Citizens Advice also if you want to talk to someone, though they’ll probably point you to ACAS

  100. direct reports just wanna have fun*

    Yesterday’s letter reminded me of a current nagging situation I’m facing. I travel 6-7 times per year for my job. These are basically the only times that I see a group of coworkers who are all remote.

    We got a new boss in January, so he is traveling with us. My problem (is it even a problem??) is that our days last from 6:30-7am to at least 6 or 7pm. In previous years, this would be a chance for me to spend some time with coworkers I never see and have fun, have some drinks, whine about work, the usual–what you would do at a happy hour after work with some office buddies, you know?

    But there is a new dynamic this year. So far, at every trip, our boss has insisted on joining us every evening for dinner and hangout time. During the day, he insists that we need to take the evening to relax and recharge and maybe see some of the city we’re in. Yet, he always tags along and insists on talking about work over dinner, as if we haven’t all already put in a full day.

    It’d be one thing if it was just dinner… but he NEVER leaves. Last man standing, without fail, every time.

    I feel like, as a manager, you should give your team some time WITHOUT YOU. Especially during work travel when you have already said that evenings are not work hours. I can’t relax around my boss. Others can’t either. On the last couple trips, I stayed in my room and got room service just to get a break from this guy.

    Has anyone been in this situation? Shouldn’t a manager know when to opt out and give their team some room to breathe? It’s sending my stress level through the roof on these trips because I feel pressured to be on 24 hours a day.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Honestly, if there’s a group of you and one manager, it seems churlish to leave the manager out. Especially since your coworkers are remote and, I assume, he doesn’t get face time with them either. Would you feel the same way if he didn’t try to talk about work all the dang time? What would happen if, at dinner, you replied “Can we not talk about work? I’m all llama-wrangled-out right now. I need a couple of hours to decompress.” If he’s there because he wants to stay in work mode, maybe it will make him reconsider. And if not, at least you might be able to not talk about work.

      1. Bulbasaur*

        There are multiple teams that travel to the same sites, so our manager is never the only manager. He is now just the only one that insists on accompanying us everywhere.

        1. valentine*

          Tell him you would like some peer time because you really value it. If he’s unreceptive, break into at least three groups. The smallest one takes the hit and keeps him busy while the others revel in their liberation.

    2. Person from the Resume*

      Actually I disagree with you. This is a business trip. it makes perfect sense to me that your boss would expect to be at the business dinner, office happy hour, etc. while on an out of town business trip.

      I understand that this change is disruptive to your old routine, but the way you describe it is that these people are also your friends and this is a social hang out (you can vent and have fun and not be “on”), but your boss is thinks that this is a work event which IMO it kind of is.

      Your description is a bit odd to me. I’m just as on with my boss as I am with colleagues. The only thing I’d suggest is that if this is truly a friendly hang out invite your friends to hang out away from the office and don’t talk about it at the office.

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Hmmm, don’t know if I agree with that, PftR. I’d say that once a week on a business trip it makes sense for the boss to go with the group and hang out, but every night seems excessive.

      2. ..Kat..*

        But, boss is saying dinner is for relaxing. Then, he turns it into a business dinner because he can’t stop talking about work. And this is after a 12 hour (or longer ) day.

  101. Watermelon M*

    Has anyone seen that tweet about the coworker giving the Sorry for Your Loss care upon resignation? It cracked me up. I’ll post a link in the reply.

  102. lisette*

    I came in Monday morning to an email from a coworker that started “I trust you had a fabulous weekend and are looking forward to another great week at [Company].” It’s perfectly appropriate for me to expect the company to pay for my dry cleaning after I threw up all over myself, right?

    1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

      I confess I initially read your last sentence as part of the email and had so many questions!

      1. Courageous Clementine*

        +1 I searched for quotation marks, too. I was hoping for a very saucy party and hangover story.

  103. Myrcallie*

    I’m in a slightly above entry level role, but it’s pretty specialised already- think teapot handle design, rather than the whole picture. I want to move to a more generalist role, but so far the only generalist jobs where I’ve had a response would mean taking a significant pay cut, which I really can’t afford. How can I convince hiring managers that I would be able to pick up slightly higher level generalist work (much of which I have exposure to, since I work in an office with a lot of generalists)? Or should I just suck it up and accept that I’m stuck for now?

    1. Kathenus*

      Can you get some cross-training opportunities from your current role that might help you gain some more experience/insight into the other roles to be able to add to your resume/application for the higher level generalist positions?

  104. AppleStan*

    Need some advice on my current situation. Or maybe this is just a rant, I don’t know.

    I was promoted to manager about 1 year ago, supervising the people that used to be my co-workers. It has been an adjustment for all of us, but we’ve come through with flying colors…no real issue there.

    We are currently at 1/2 staff, and have been since recently after my promotion. For years we’ve lost people due the low pay (this is state government – and we are in the bottom 5 in the US for pay for our kind of work) but it just so happened that a work opportunity opened up with multiple available spots, a good 3rd of the workforce took advantage, and are gone. In a panic, the powers that be FINALLY got us (mostly) comparable wages to other departments, and the people that are still here have no plans to leave (at least not due to pay). The people who left were already in the process of doing so when I was promoted, so the promotion had nothing to do with why they left.

    Due to our low staffing, I’ve basically kept doing my old job, as well as doing my new job. Naturally, this necessitates a LOT of hours at the office. Manager duties should require about 45 hours or so a week, and I’m spending easily between 60 – 80 hours per week. I am willing to do this because (a) I know it is not forever, (b) I actually enjoy what I’m doing, and (c) I’m more stressed when I’m NOT spending these hours working. It is not ideal, it is not something that I would ever ask anyone to do, but my people are stepping up and covering additional duties as well, and I can’t do any less. The work we do would normally have 12 employees covering our entire state for this particular niche, and instead of handling 3 appointments in a day, the employees are handling 4 – 5 appointments in a day.

    In a conversation with my boss and his boss, I expressed my frustration with being constantly “put on hold” when it came to hiring, and in doing so, I mentioned my work hours and that being in limbo on this one hire made it difficult for me to put off / pass on other work, so I have to work the hours that I work or we push back our services to people even farther. As an example, when we are fully staffed, a person requesting an appointment sees us within 2 – 3 weeks. We are currently setting appointments 4 months out. If I had not continued doing my workload, and our team wasn’t doing extra appointments, we would be 6 – 7 months out right now when someone requests an appointment.

    The day after this conversation, I got a very long detailed email from my boss with a very specific plan on reducing how many appointments I take (as a manager, I’m only supposed to do 4 – 5 a week, I currently do approximately 20 or so a week), that I am no longer to work weekends, and I am to start shifting my appointments to the new people who are supposed to start in August. The email was cc’d to my boss’s boss, and to 2nd in command in HR.

    I … did not take this email well. I was very angry, went to lunch with a friend to “eat my feelings,” and was still stewing when I went home that night. I know my anger is out of proportion to the email, but it is frustrating to me that instead of talking to me about what was happening, why it was happening, and what my plans were, I received a directive to prevent me from “burning out.” I take regular breaks/vacations, and honestly, these are the kind of hours I’m used to working (I used to do a 2nd job in addition to this job, and it was pretty much full time). The concept of cutting down my hours makes me especially angry because to accomplish the plan that was laid out in the email, I would have to dump even more work onto my team, and that simply isn’t possible. Moreover, I was setting the appointments in such a way that as the new people came in, they would take appointments from everyone equally…not just me. We aren’t getting enough new people at the same time to accomplish what was set out in my boss’s email.

    A friend pointed out that my boss was probably told to give me this directive (considering who was cc’d on the email) and that is probably accurate. But it doesn’t change the fact that these decisions, without consultation with me, is going to have a hugely negative impact on my team. I get that just like my team has to take direction from me, I have to take direction from my boss. I get my boss can give me direction without consulting me. But it’s been two days, I’m still quite angry about it, and I’ve started looking for other jobs.

    What can I do to get over this anger?

    1. animaniactoo*

      Hmmm. How do you feel about responding with something like “I appreciate that you’ve taken my frustrations with the workload seriously and have come up with a plan to address it. Unfortunately I don’t think that this plan takes into account X & Y factors for my team and their workload, which I had planned to address by doing Z. Can we discuss some modifications to your action plan in light of that?”

      What is the possibility that your boss is pushing you to stop doing the massive work overload to let things fall through the cracks and prove that additional staff are needed, to get authorization for hiring?

      1. designbot*

        I like the approach overall, but instead of “unfortunately I don’t think… etc.” I’d say something like, “To make this realistic, we would need X new hires in addition to the two planned for August. Could we get those job postings up to bring them in as quickly as possible?” Assume positive intent and that of course they’ll do what is needed to make their own plan work.

        1. animaniactoo*

          State government, that’s not going to happen. OP will need to approach from a realistic outlook of the possibilities. Even in private sector, I would frame it as “What does the budget look like for hiring two additional people and how quickly can we post for those positions to fulfill this goal?”

        2. AppleStan*

          The positions are open and have been advertised. It is difficult to get people to fill these positions because the pay is so low. The “mass exodus pay bump” gave entry level no experience an $7K pay increase. We expect we will hire a few more people within 3 – 4 months, however, we have the opportunity for immediate relief that will NOT affect our ability to hire for the other positions and while TPTB seem to say they support hiring and lament the current state of affairs at how bad our statistics are, their solution is not “Let’s push this forward” the solution is “Let’s cut back AppleStan’s hours.”

      2. AppleStan*

        I don’t believe it’s an authorization issue. The open positions on my team have been advertised *continuously* – they get renewed on multiple sites every 30 – 45 days, as the site requires. These particular positions require a license, however, there is a sliver of our work that can be done without the licensing. My boss and I came up with a plan to hire someone to do the work that doesn’t require licensing, and we met with HR as well as his boss. The go-ahead was given to hire from the powers that be, however, it seems every time we turn around there is one more obstacle, and it usually involves a step with someone who is not in the office (vacation/sick/whatever) for a few days or a week, and no one else can take that step, so we have to wait for that person to return. Let’s just say our office is not the only one understaffed.

        I’m not frustrated with the workload – I’m frustrated with the constant delays in implementing a solution that everyone supposedly supports. Most of the appointments I take are the ones that require we conclude our services within 45 days of the application…due to the volume of applications we have overall, there aren’t enough open slots on my team’s calendars to be able to slot what essentially amounts to a high-priority request. So most of those come to me, as I tend to have the open spaces to address these requests. Falling through on this would mean violating state law, which is not the attention our office wants or needs.

        1. LCL*

          With compliance issues, if you can’t get the necessary labor support, sometimes failure will happen. That’s where your expertise should be applied, in knowing what will be a paper violation vs something that will endanger your customers. This situation calls for a meeting explaining what can be realistically accomplished given current staffing, where you think you are going to fail, and the consequences of that failure. In the industry where I work, there can be heavy regulatory consequences for certain technical violations. Management will do something if compliance is at stake, but they have to know ahead of time. You can’t do it all yourself. Your sense of obligation to your customers (the public) is something to be proud of, but that same obligation is causing to take on the responsibility for the success of the whole office. That’s too much. If you get so overworked you have to leave you won’t be serving the public at all.

          1. AppleStan*

            I’ve been thinking for a few days and that is what is bugging me about the whole thing. If someone could point to my work and say “we see a trend of your workload slipping” or “we see you on the path to getting burned out,” then I could understand. But despite me being perfectly happy and content with the hours I’m putting in **because I know that it is temporary** it’s “Oh no, we have to cut back on your hours.”

            Management is perfectly aware of the compliance issue – I have never been anything but up front, consistently, regularly about the status of everything in our office…

            I think, literally, the only thing they may have been unaware of in our current situation is the number of hours I’ve been working – and I say “may have been unaware” because they have to sign off on my timesheets and this is not the first conversation about my working more hours.

            I’m not doing it all myself, my team has definitely stepped up and covered a lot more work…again, they also know that it is temporary and won’t last forever.

            I just feel knee-capped 10 minutes before the end of the game….

    2. LCL*

      What you should do to get over your anger is take a couple of sick days because you are frazzled from working so hard. Based on what you posted, your boss behaved perfectly.
      You went to your boss and said ‘I’m doing two jobs and working long hours and I’m wondering when we are going to hire more people?’ Your boss took the necessary first step, which is stopping anyone who is working excessive hours. Hopefully this won’t have the deleterious effect on your employees that you think, because they will work their scheduled hours then go home.

      TLDR:your department is way understaffed, your boss dealt with the most obvious problem first, which was you working far too many hours.

    3. Kathenus*

      I agree with LCL, I think your boss is absolutely trying to listen to you and do the right thing! When I first started reading the post I thought it was going to end with a question about how to get more resources to reduce your workload, and the first thing I thought of was that you need to stop working all those hours, otherwise upper management wouldn’t be able to truly see the scope of the problem of understaffing.

      But they did see it and are acting, and want to help you have a more manageable workload. Would it have been great to include you, maybe. Depends on the situation, TBH. If I, as a manager, know how I want to move forward on something for a specific reason, I don’t ask for feedback if I’ve basically made up my mind or the direction was already set from above, because I feel that’s disrespectful as well if I’m not prepared to alter my plan. But presume positive intent, regardless – they are trying to help you even if not doing it in the best way from your perspective.

      You can absolutely have a conversation about how to implement most efficiently and to be realistic about what this will/won’t achieve as well, just do it in a way of trying to solve the problems and move forward, not in a way of being unhappy about the change. It’s totally realistic to have an initial reaction of wanting to have had a role in the decision when you’ve probably spent so much time thinking about best solutions, but take a step back and realize you and your boss both want the best, and work together to implement this in the best way possible. My two cents, anyway.

  105. PT Anon*

    I’ve recently been applying for a PT job in addition to my normal FT position. Reasons include needing extra finances due to recent life events. However, if/when asked why I’m applying, what should I say?

    1. Going Anon Today - TGIF*

      Maybe you can say you have a personal interest in the industry/business?

      e.g. If you’re applying for a retail or food service job, you could say you’re a big fan of the company for x reason(s) (for example, for a store, you really love their products, or what have you). I’ve known plenty of people who worked retail side jobs solely for the discounts they can provide. Similarly, folks with day jobs, who choose to wait tables on only Saturday nights to help with bills — maybe they love that restaurant’s food.

      Mind you, this strategy would work best if you do have a modicum of real interest. It’s hard to completely fake that sort of thing. Also, I would recommend retail over food service, particularly if you have good retail options (e.g. fancy malls) in your area.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve taken on plenty of PT work over the years. Usually they don’t care and expect that you need the money, which is why you’re patching in a PT gig.

      I would just say that you’re looking to expand your experience and fill your days, that’s my go to. Granted I’m also a workaholic and it shows in my resume, so nobody is shocked. This is only an issue if you’re going to be looking for places that do shift work. Then they are used to students and others with other scheduled options that will take priority over their shifts, which they may or may not be willing to accommodate. Most of the time you’re doing them a favor taking a part time job though and there’s a lot of flexibility or they don’t have anyone stick around.

  106. Jill March*

    How long into a new job did it take before you feel comfortable? I’m going through a case of the new job blues about 2-3 months in and want to feel like there’s a light at the end of the (hopefully short) tunnel.

    1. BadWolf*

      Is it the people/environment or the actually work itself? The last time I switched jobs internally, it was 6 months before I started to enjoy it. For me, I hadn’t done something that new (work-wise) for awhile and I had to remind myself that learning is hard, it was good for me and I could do it (and have done it before).

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      With my current job, it took me about 6 months to reach a turn around to start feeling comfortable. I’ve been here 5+ years now and it’s been a mostly good experience. I was at my previous organization for over 7 years, so I had a lot of trust built up, and that was a big part of what made the transition challenging.

    3. Fortitude Jones*

      It really is situation and person-specific. No one here can really tell you a timeframe that makes sense for you or your situation. The last couple of jobs I’ve had, I felt comfortable within six to seven weeks, but that was because I had positions that were totally in my wheelhouse. If I had been doing things that were completely foreign to me, it would probably take me months to feel comfortable.

  107. Sally Sparrow*

    I’ve been asking a lot of teacher questions lately as SO was looking for a new job where we live. Happy to report that they were officially offered an amazing job on Wednesday teaching exactly what they want to be teaching! It is a private school but the pay is actually a huge increase (35%) over old job in a public school and 25% more than the new local public school system.

  108. kdd*

    For any fundraisers out there with your CFRE: Have you found it worthwhile to go through the CFRE process? Did it help you in advancing your career, or negotiating a higher salary? Is it worth the time/expense?

    1. Bluebell*

      I never did it but have a few colleagues that invested the time and effort and found it worthwhile.

  109. Watermelon M*

    Ok this is a low stakes question… but my boss sits in my cubicle and always puts her foot on my desk. With her whole shoe, which is usually covered in mud. She’s one of those types where she’s comfortable with anything so I don’t think she finds this annoying, but the germaphobe in me gets annoyed. I’ve tried covering my desks with papers to prevent her from putting it on there, but she will move the papers to put her foot on it. For some reason, asking “Hey, could you not put your feet on my desk?” Seems like it will offend her from what I’ve historically experienced with her. Should I just get over my fear and ask that or just get over it and not be grossed out by it?

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I have a really high filth tolerance but this one would bug me. I think you either have to ask explicitly or accept the size sixes are going to hang out there on the regular.

      Is there any other kind of footrest you could suggest finding for her? That might help soften an interaction so it’s not just “Knock it off.”

    2. BadWolf*

      Shoes on furniture is not for me either.

      Since it’s Friday, I’m going to make bad suggestions:

      Match her foot to foot. Put your feet on the desk took.

      Beat her foot to the desk, get your foot on there as she’s trying to place her foot. It’s a power play…you win.

      Try to wedge a coaster under her shoe like her foot is suddenly a sweating glass of water.

      Line the edge of your desk with the spikes they put out to deter birds from nesting.

      Lean in, lean out and say, “Oh my, I think you might have stepped in something…maybe a dog something” and then roll your chair away.

      Start playing with the shoelaces, like you’re a kitten or a toddler.

      1. Watermelon M*

        I am CRYING at these suggestions omg. Thank you. I snorted some water up my nose too.

      2. They Don’t Make Sunday*

        I would just love to see the coaster one deployed super-smoothly and with a straight face.

        1. valentine*

          I would just love to see the coaster one
          Yes. If asking doesn’t work. She’s impossibly rude. (And what’s with the mud? This reminds me of the butt boss.)

    3. Close Bracket*

      Ask her not to put her foot up. Frame it as “oh, it’s a me-thing, I don’t like having the dirt on my desk after you leave.” Or if you are afraid that might lead to her taking her shoes off, frame it as, “it’s a me-thing, I don’t like feet on furniture.” Don’t forget the “thanks for understanding”.

  110. Kyoko*

    So I got some “gumption” advice from my retired father which to me doesn’t sound great, thoughts?

    Im job hunting and working with a recruiter, they submitted my resume to a position that sounds amazing but hasn’t heard back in over a week. My dad thinks I should apply to the position again posted on their website so that “it looks like I really want the position” and he says the recruiter will still get their commission. Is this true?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Counterpoint: If you apply to the position again, it will look like you forgot that you’ve already applied once.

    2. Anathema Device*

      That is a great way to really annoy a recruiter. Don’t.

      Also, “over a week” is no time at all!

    3. Nicki Name*

      Certainly not in my industry. Depending on the company’s relationship with the recruiter, they might use that as a way to go around the recruiter and avoid the commission, or they might alert the recruiter, in which case the recruiter still has a chance at the commission but your relationship with them is now damaged. Definitely do not do.

    4. irene adler*

      The client (potential employer) will be annoyed that you wasted their time as they had to review your resume a second time (assuming recruiter has already presented your resume to them).

      The recruiter will be angry that you annoyed the client.

      Depending upon the relationship betw. the recruiter and the employer, client might decide that your resume should be taken out of the running. Reason: you are trying to go behind the recruiter’s back. Or, you aren’t cooperating with recruiter, whom they prefer to work with, in their hiring.

      Why not contact the recruiter directly? Ask about status (“did you submit my resume to the client?” NOTE: if not, ask for the reason why. If it’s not a valid reason, tell them you are going to submit your resume directly). Ask what the client’s comments were regarding your resume, what you might do to get them to re-think a rejection (is there a skill they want-that you have-that didn’t get entered onto your resume?), etc.

      1. TPS Report Coversheet*

        Some recruiters are shady. I got a call from Agency A for a plum job, got my CV, two weeks go, and another recruiter Agency B called me. The job sounded very familiar, so I said sorry but these guys A my CV for this job. Well, now this recruiter B didn’t take a no for an answer, he asked the hiring manager, and they hadn’t seen my CV. So I got through an interview but they hired someone internally. Now why would A sit on my CV, just makes you go hmmm…

        1. irene adler*

          Yeah- why be a recruiter if you aren’t going to do the job.
          A might not have as direct an avenue to the employer as B does. IN fact, they may not actually have the employer as an actual client. They are just trying to field suitable candidates, then submit them with the hope they’ve submitted someone so stellar that employer has to pay the finder’s fee. As such it may be that A has been trying to get an appointment with the employer-hence the delay.

          That’s why one keeps on top of recruiters. Ask where the resume is (“in the client’s hands? Or on the desk, waiting for…?”).

    5. leya*

      i wouldn’t do this, largely because it’s a waste of your time, and partially because it may annoy the recruiter. my job only hires through recruiters; we occasionally get referrals from employees or counterparts, but the way this whole industry works is to hire almost exclusively using recruiters. i actually handle receiving all resumes and scheduling all interviews. we work with multiple recruiters and i keep a giant spreadsheet of every resume we have ever received and who sent it to us. if we have received a resume that we are interested in from multiple recruiters, it’s imperative that we go through the recruiter that sent it first* or we could be on the hook for paying a fee to 2 recruiters. there is definitely a lot of overlap as candidates will work with multiple recruiters, but the fact of getting a resume from 2 or more recruiters is, as far as someone’s candidacy is concerned, totally neutral. it’s really not unusual to get the same resume from multiple places, especially if it’s strong, but it doesn’t affect your candidacy one way or the other. however, i have seen recruiters get annoyed about candidates pursuing opportunities from other recruiters (and not disclosing those opportunities); mostly i think this is passing the buck so that the client (us, the employer) won’t think that the recruiter is doing a bad job. is that annoyance unfair, given that candidates aren’t required to limit themselves to only one recruiter? yeah, i think it probably is. does it happen anyway? definitely.

      tldr: don’t listen to him – it’s not a good use of your time.

      *the exception is if a long time has passed between introduction and when the interview is requested (it’s usually six months and is spelled out in our contracts with the recruiters).

  111. LQ*

    I’m a new manager and I’m extremely introverted. I’ve been finding ways to deal with this and it’s generally fine. My new report is intensely extroverted. We have a 10 minute conversation and I feel like she’s sucked every bit of energy from me. She’s fantastic at what she does. So far I think she really likes working for me. I think I’ll be able to help her really succeed.

    But does anyone have any suggestions about dealing with just the energy drain from this? I’m hopeful that it will get easier over time as she comes to trust that I will talk with her when she needs it and also as I develop some standard tools for handling her. But I’d really like some suggestions about what others have done.

    1. Amethystmoon*

      As an introvert who’s also highly involved with Toastmasters, and has done various district-level volunteer roles, what I have done in the situations where I needed to be “on” for hours at a time was take a nap when I got home. Is there anywhere in the building you can go to and just relax on your breaks without anyone bugging you? Or perhaps your car in the parking lot?

      1. LQ*

        Not really. Part of it is if this was all it was that would be fine, but I’m in meetings about 7 hours a day, I occasionally get lunch (today I got a full lunch break and am feeling good!) and I basically have to be on all day, and then often stick around to put in another few hours of work after people leave to get my not meeting work done. I’d come to a kind of almost equlibrum with the rest of it, but my report is so so high energy demand and I think part of it is it’s really random. She’ll want to pop by for a few minutes at least once a day.

        I do think that will quiet down a bit over time. (her previous boss never did regular one on ones and drop bys were the only way she got the conversations she needed, I’m trying to direct her to the regular schedule but I think it’ll take a few weeks.) I do think I’ll block a hold half hour after my weekly meeting with her, can’t take a nap, but could close the door to my office and be quiet for a few minutes.

        1. Going Anon Today - TGIF*

          Oh wow, it sounds like a very tough situation. I hope things do calm down over time.

          Personally, my full-hour lunch breaks are my essential “me time” to be alone and recharge. I’m not sure what I’d do without them, tbh.

  112. TheRedCoat*

    So nervous. I signed a job offer with DreamCompany that was contingent on a background check, and the 3rd party they use sent me a form to fill out. Which I did! But then they came back to me and it looks like my current job gave them the wrong hire date (the date my company was bought by our Canadian overlords, not the day that I actually was officially hired by oldjob). I’ve spent days now sending documentation over and over again to prove that I didn’t lie, but like every day someone comes back to confirm the dates and asks for an explanation of the discrepancy. Also, oldjob’s HR person, the one who is onsite, told me she wouldn’t do employment verification and they have to go through corporate.

    Also my anxiety meds ran out and now I’m caught in an anxiety spiral. I really don’t want NewJob to be tainted by OldJobs’s incompetence, and at the same time I want to wave at this whole situation and go “THIS! THIS is why I applied somewhere else!” And I’m also worried that come July 8th I will have no job to go to because I gave notice here and then everything got messed up.

    1. Where have all the jobs gone?*

      Why don’t you also email hiring manager to “keep them in the loop” and let them know there might be a delay with your paperwork because you started with company A on ###, but they got taken over by company B on ###, and company B is giving your start date to be the takeover date, even though you previously worked for company A. And then say something like “I hope this isn’t causing too many problems for DreamCompany” and that you are “looking forward to starting on 8th July”.

      It sounds like a very straightforward problem to solve and not at all like you are being sketchy, but perhaps its something that is difficult to code into the software the background check people are using. A simple clear update email to the hiring manager might help move things along. I wouldn’t mention your anxiety or concerns in the email, just “this is what’s happening; I hope it isn’t causing problems; I’m still expecting to start on 8th”

      1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

        This is great advice and wording. Definitely don’t mention your anxiety, just treat it like the straightforward issue it is. I know that is easy to say from an outside point of view. I am in salary negotiating hell right now and have to keep my own anxieties at bay.

    2. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

      First off, take a deep breath. I am sure they encounter this sort of thing regularly. It is annoying, but I would just keep sending what they ask for. Why won’t HR verify employment? That seems like such an absurd line in the sand to draw. In any case, just go through the steps like corporate no matter how painstaking it is. New job wants you, this isn’t a dealbreaking hurdle. Can you contact your new manager and apprise them of the situation? They might have some sway over the process. Or would your current manager be willing to speak to them?

      1. TheRedCoat*

        My current manager isn’t my manager, because they have her doing 3 people’s jobs and she got so burned out that they reassigned everyone on the team for a month so she could focus on 1 job, then take a week off, and then come back refreshed. Meanwhile, I’m assigned to an interim manager who didn’t even get around to telling HR that I had given 2 weeks notice- apparently, me going to our onsite person about this kerfluffle was the first she had heard about it.

        I’m just worried that DreamJob will think that I’m too much work and give my spot to someone else (they are a really good employer in city that doesn’t have much other white collar work). It’s probably an unreasonable worry, but yeah >.>

        1. Blue Hair, Don't Care*

          It’s kind of funny how much job searching is like dating isn’t it? I was extended a verbal offer for a state job, but she didn’t know the salary since state HR has to do that. I had to tell them my current salary (also state, they could have looked it up anyways). The director thought they might try to offer a 6% raise, but I told her point blank that would not work for me as it only amounted to 3k more than what I was making. I asked her if they could go ahead and at least make me an offer since she wasn’t sure. Well, HR asks me directly for my salary requirements. I already had the range since state job and all, so told them I was hoping for closer to 70k, 12k more than what I am making and 6k from the top of their range. This was on Monday and it has been crickets since then. I sent a follow up email yesterday with no response. I am freaking out too, do they still like me? Are they talking to other people?

          Realistically, I am sure they are checking to see if it is doable, and if it wasn’t they would have said that right away, but my anxiety is through the roof with aforementioned thoughts. I suppose that was my long-winded way of saying your panic spiral is totally normal. You are totally worth whatever small bumps they have to deal with.

    3. Not All*

      When I had to do a federal background check and they were having trouble verifying some employment info, I sent them copies of my old W-2s and that worked fine.

    4. Tmarie*

      Do you have paystubs, or tax forms from you started at Oldjob from before the buyout?

  113. Deryn*

    I work in clinical research, and we have a part time employee working with us this summer who is in a master’s program in a related area. He’s doing great, although he has a few quirks that annoy me a little, but I think a lot of it is trying to look impressive and being unfamiliar with the finer points of office etiquette (nothing egregious). Those will come as he gets more comfortable and picks up on the culture – I don’t have concerns about his social skills in that sense.

    However, he has one thing that keeps coming up that I’m running out of responses for. My personal background is that I have a master’s degree in a field that somewhat overlaps his (and is actually from the same department of the same university), and this fall, I’ll be leaving my position in our lab after 3 years to go back for a PhD in a field that again, overlaps quite a bit with what he’s currently doing his master’s work in. I suspect he’s just using “grad school” as a safe topic of conversation, but a recurring theme has been him making remarks sort of “telling” me about grad school. For example, if I decline coffee by saying I’m not a coffee drinker? “Oh, that’ll change when you get to grad school!” (My response: “Nah, I don’t think so, since I never got the taste for it while doing my maser’s.”). If I say I went to a movie this weekend? “Enjoy it while you can! You’re not going to have time for that kind of stuff when you’re in grad school!” (My response: “Ah, yeah, I was definitely busy when I was doing my master’s but I’ve always found a little time to fit some fun stuff in.”)

    It’s not a HUGE deal and really not worth too much of my mental energy, but it happens daily and I’m running out of polite ways to say “I know.” Right now I’ve been resorting to just shoehorning “When I was doing my master’s/at [university]/whatever…” into our conversations a bit more to try to hammer it in that this is Round Two for me, but I would love any suggestions for a gracious way for me to keep responding to these comments!

    1. fposte*

      Is ceasing to care an option? I’d stop with the shoehorning your master’s degree into conversation, because then you’re the person who shoehorns their master’s degree into conversations, and he also knows you have a master’s degree and doesn’t care. It sounds like the underlying point is that you feel like he’s claiming he has experience you don’t have. But he’s wrong, and you know it, and it wouldn’t matter much anyway. “Sounds like you’re really enjoying grad school!” “Grad school clearly means a lot to you!” are fine responses.

    2. BadWolf*

      I totally get the annoying part of that — “Um, I’ve already done Thing, you’re not departing magic wisdom about Thing to me.”

      But I agree with fposte — it sounds like reminding him that you’ve been through grad school isn’t making a difference. You could try abbreviated to a shrug and, “Eh, should be fine.” (like the movies comment) or “Maybe” (like the coffee comment — or anything). Unless it amusing you to shoe horn in on his comments — then make a mental bingo card and go for it.

      I know I sometimes fall into awkward ruts in work conversation. I try to mix it up and not ask the same person the same sort of thing like I only remember one personal detail about them (which…is sometimes the case).

    3. Not A Manager*

      “I’m sure I’ll have plenty of time to talk about grad school when I’m in grad school. Let’s just live in the moment right now, okay?”

  114. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

    Has anyone ever returned to work at their old school? Basically on a lark I decided to apply for a librarian job at my alma mater. Once I applied I realized this might not be a great idea – going back to the place where a lot of my old professors probably still work and where a lot of important events in my life occured. 

    I am well aware of the expression “you can’t go home again” but in many ways this job seems like a really good fit from the outside. I haven’t even gotten an interview yet, but I need a change and this seemed like a good opportunity. So has anyone ever had a chance to do something like this? How did it turn out?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Meh, not personally but a lot of my former classmates “went back” to our old school to either teach or be an assistant. It’s a small dirt town, so if they want to stay in the area with their family, they don’t have much of a choice.

      They’re all lowkey and low drama, so it has worked out well! Unless you had a reputation that you’re worried about the professors recalling, it shouldn’t be that odd. Lots of people graduate and work at the school in some capacity!

    2. Rey*

      I got hired full-time at my alma mater two months after graduation. My advice is just to draw boundaries with your old department. I only go back to my old student workplace about twice a year, usually connected to a specific request (supervisor has expertise on current issue, dropping off a wedding announcement). I don’t want to be the old employee who can’t let go and makes the new employees feel uncomfortable. So be polite and collegiate whenever you see professors and embrace the new way that you get to experience campus as a librarian instead of a student. Fingers crossed that you get an interview :)

    3. Hope*

      I think it’s actually pretty normal in admin/staff type roles at universities for that to be the case–you have a leg up because you’re already familiar with the campus, etc. and so your training tends to go more easily. I know probably half of the staff where I work are alumni or close relatives of alumni, and while it’s not quite as much the case at the previous campus I worked, it was completely normal there, too.

    4. Lovecraft Beauty*

      I’ve worked at my alma mater since a year after graduation. It’s been fine, I’ve been here for seven years, and mostly really liked it — the institutional knowledge and perspective on student experiences can even be valuable, depending on the role.

    5. Pam*

      I started working at my campus as professional staff before I graduated. I made sure to keep student lines while still in class, but changed after graduating. Example: DR. Snith was my instructor, but after graduation, became Janet.

    6. Middle School Teacher*

      My first year teaching I was at the school I attended in grade 7-10. Many of my former teachers were still there and it was very weird calling them by their first names. Currently one of my former students is teaching at my school, which is also very weird (she’s dealing with it better than I am — she’s loving it, I feel decrepit).

    8. Gumby*

      I worked in the alumni association office of my alma mater. It was fine. They were thrilled to have me and I think being an alum might have helped me get the job (I was also totally qualified, but they hired me in about 1.5 weeks from application to first day at work and hiring is seldom that fast). Several of my co-workers were also alums – one of whom was in the same dorm as me one year. So it wasn’t rare either.

    9. The Librarian (not the type from TNT)*

      Thanks for these reassuring responses! I also meant to say in my original post that it’s been 17 years since I graduated. :-)

  115. Confused*

    Hey everyone, first time posting here. I did ask Alison this in an email message (which was answered, thank you!), but I wanted to get additional input from the AAM community.

    Weird email communication situation here. Wondering if this hiring managers response to my requesting an update is a vague/subtle rejection? Should I respond and ask if this means I’m not one of the finalists? If so, how would I craft a message to ask for clarification without sounding off-putting? Heres the conversation:

    Me:
    Hi Hiring Manager,
    I hope all is well and you are having a good week. I wanted to follow up with you for the (position) with I interviewed for with you on (date).
    You mentioned you wanted to make a decision for the position by the end of the month. Would you be able to provide any updates on the position, please?
    Thank you,
    Confused

    Hiring Manager:
    Dear Confused,
    Thank you for your email. It was nice to meet you earlier this month.
    I appreciated the opportunity to learn about all of your good work.
    At this time we are interviewing finalists for this position.
    Thank you for your interest in (organization). It is truly appreciated!
    With kindest regards,
    Hiring Manager

    What are your interpretations of the hiring managers message? Anyone ever been in a situation like this? What would/did you do?

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      I’m sorry, that’s a rejection. They’re telling you that they’ve selected the finalists, and you are not one of them.

    2. Anisa*

      You’re saying Alison took the time to answer this in a private message to you but you’re posting it here any way because you…don’t believe her? (I’m guessing she told you it’s a rejection, they’re saying you’re not a finalist)

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        That’s pretty rude. She got Alison’s answer and now she wants to crowd source, the way that OP’s that make it into the publicized responses get to have comments as well.

        Alison is great but she’s not the frigging Lord and High Master of advice where it all ends, that’s the point of the Friday post. People have different POV’s from her all the time.

        1. Anisa*

          This is not a question that requires advice shopping or crowd sourcing. Look below, every answer is the same. This is someone who got a busy person to give them free and private help and then decided they wished they had been told something different.

          1. Anisa*

            Its 2 bites at the apple, which Alison specifically asks people not to do at the top of this post.

      3. Confused*

        Whoops, my bad this rubbed you the wrong way! But to clarify, I think its off base to claim I didn’t want to believe in Alison’s response and didn’t appreciate the input. As The Man, Becky Lynch pointed out, my only intention posting was to get different perspectives/advice on this situation is all. Cheers!

    3. Glomarization, Esq.*

      You are not under any further consideration for the job, and there is no response that should come from you to this e-mail from the hiring manager.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It sounds like they’re on the final rounds of interviews and you didn’t make the cut.

      You may have slid in right before they had a chance to send out the formalized rejection letters, so you got this one in return.

      It’s hard because they didn’t say straight forward that you are not being considered anymore but that’s typical vague hiring manager speak to not give too much information at any given time unless they’re offering you the job.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      This is not vague. Please don’t email them for clarification.

      They are interviewing finalists. If you were a finalist, they would have already scheduled an interview with you.

      Best of luck with your other applications.

  116. smg*

    I’m currently hiring for my replacement because I just accepted a great, big, new job (yay!). My current position/workplace is highly desirable and so I’ve received a ton of well qualified applicants so far even though I only posted the ad on Tuesday of this week. One of the cover letters was a minimally edited version of an example cover letter posted here before (the administrative professional letter that references “wearing many hats”). Of course I immediately recognized the language of the cover letter and rejected the candidate because this position requires a high level of integrity and plagiarism is a big no-no, but a coworker thinks that it’s not necessarily a dealbreaker. What do you think?

    As an aside, this site was instrumental in me securing this new gig. I felt more prepared for the interview process than I’ve ever felt before and it’s all down to the advice given here.

    1. Rusty Shackelford*

      Does the position require writing skills? How “minimally” was the example letter edited?

      1. smg*

        Yes, the position requires writing skills, and the example was basically verbatim with some specific job details changed, and some additional lines added. To add insult to injury, the changes they made were (to me) drastically different in tone and style of writing, and made for a bad reading experience.

        But even if writing skills weren’t required for the job, it’s the plagiarism that makes it a no-go for me. The job (and every position) requires integrity, and a copied letter fails the integrity test in my book.

    5. Ask a Manager* Post author

      It’s plagiarism. They took someone else’s hard work and passed it off as their own. (And there are warnings at the top of the sample cover letter posts not to do that, so they had to deliberate ignore that.) You’re 100% right.

      1. smg*

        Thank you for the validation. It stunned me as I was reading the letter, and since I’d referenced that post pretty recently when crafting my own most recent cover letter it was fresh in my mind, but even if it hadn’t been, it’s a pretty memorable writing sample! Frankly, the gall was pretty amusing!

        In sending a rejection note I was tempted to indicate that I knew the letter was plagiarized, but ultimately decided to go with a generic rejection. Would you have let the applicant know you caught them out?

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          I would have if only so they don’t make the mistake of continuing to do this. You said the person changed some of the job- specific details and added some extra lines, so it’s possible the person didn’t realize what she was doing was plagiarism. Some people think that as long as they don’t take something word for word, they’re okay.

    6. BRR*

      That’s a dealbreaker and it would be hard for me to consider them as a candidate for awhile.

    7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agree that it’s a dealbreaker. I am also VERY curious why your coworker doesn’t agree.

      1. smg*

        She said that it should be a factor, but not a dealbreaker if we didn’t have enough qualified candidates in the pool. I patently disagree. She said something about it demonstrating resourcefulness, but I disagree with that as well.

      2. alphabet soup*

        A lot of folks just don’t understand why plagiarism is wrong, or even what is/is not plagiarism.

        My last workplace had a lot of subject-matter experts contribute articles, and I’d say 50% plagiarized. There’d be whole paragraphs copy/pasted from textbooks or WebMD or whatever. Trying to train them on how to properly use sources was really difficult– they’d often complain about how putting it in their own words is hard and it’s just easier to copy/paste. They were also confused because we’d sometimes publish whole articles from public domain sources, with attribution. They didn’t understand why public domain content was up for grabs and why other content wasn’t, or why attribution was necessary.

        I guess if you’re not a trained writer/researcher, it can be hard to understand why plagiarism matters.

    8. The New Wanderer*

      It would be awesome if you included the link to the cover letter in your rejection, but in any case rejection was the right call.

    9. froggydog*

      I think it’s lazy and if you think it was poorly edited together as you said, then yeah it deserves a rejection. But I don’t think plagiarism in the professional world is an issue (unless you’re in a field where you profit off of writing and I think it’s debatable whether or not getting an interview is profiting) but that might just be me coming from a government background where we plagiarize literally everything and encourage it. Makes no sense to 100% redo something if you can edit something and make it better to fit the situation (outside of school obviously).

      1. Anathema Device*

        Erm, who told you this? Plagiarism = breaking the law, and having a government background doesn’t mean you should be infringing on intellectual copyright! Wow!

        1. froggydog*

          Have you worked for government before? I’ve worked in emergency management as well as public health in multiple states at multiple levels of government and it is widely agreed that it is a waste of time and resources to completely write any original document. You’re expected to find similar documents and edit/write portions of them to fit your organizations needs. It’s widely stated “plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery.”

            1. froggydog*

              lmao, ok I guess myself and all the hundreds of colleagues I have worked with in various state, local, and federal governments are going to get sued over our thousands of emergency plans and risk communication press releases being copy pasted from a variety of sources

  117. LadyByTheLake*

    A moment to vent. My department has been having an all out war with a group that is running a project. They are sloppy, slow, are consultants who have held themselves out as experts but they miss obvious things and ask stupid questions. Yesterday they sent out a PowerPoint that asked stupid questions that they had asked before so I (speaking for a group) responded politely but firmly asking why they were asking since the questions they asked were ones that we had answered previously and also the questions that they were asking raised questions about whether they understood the process. They came back with clarifications that the questions that they were ACTUALLY asking aren’t the ones that they put in the PowerPoint but were something else entirely, but now they are mad because I made them look like idiots (which they are) because they had asked the questions on an email that cc’d their bosses, so my response did too. If the PowerPoint had been clear about what they were asking, then I wouldn’t have had to wonder why they were asking questions that made them look like idiots, so this is on them. Grrrrr. Rant over.

      1. fposte*

        Exactly my puzzled thought. And how long did it take them to create this Powerpoint? I mean, just, why?

      2. LadyByTheLake*

        Yes — they wanted to show scenarios & screen shots and ask questions about them. But the questions that they asked were questions that we had already answered, so I responded to say “we’ve answered this before, help us understand, why are you asking the same questions again?” And I did that by simply responding to their email with the PowerPoint.
        Well, it turned out that although the question they literally asked was “do teapots need handles” (which we had previously answered) what they really intended to ask was “do teapots need handles when they come in a basket that already has a handle attached.” But there was nothing that told me that that was what they were trying to ask. Plus, the question was still dumb because the point of the project is to make sure that there is a way to safely lift the teapots.

    2. dealing with dragons*

      we’re having the same problem – someone wants us to swoop in and help but then they get the credit for it. So our “suggestions” are suddenly the new direction they’re taking.

      they’ll ask a question, and we’ll be like…..do you understand the process? But then it turns out (obviously) they were joking or teasing us.

      gotta love working with adults

  118. Wing Leader*

    Okay, here is my question/issue. I work as a pretty basic office assistant in a law firm.

    Here’s the problem: For the past several weeks, I have spent most of my time being bored out of my mind and browsing the Internet all day because I literally have nothing to do. This is for two reasons.

    The first is because we just don’t have a lot going on right now. We have no trials going on until the fall, and it’s just a pretty relaxed time at the moment.

    The second reason, though, is one of our partners decided to hand his niece a job for the summer because she needed extra money. So, any type of work that would usually go to me is now going to her because he wants her to get as much experience as possible. She is not going to be here forever and will be going back to college in a couple months, but until then I have become pretty obsolete. No one seems to notice or care that I don’t do much during the day, but I care.

    The thing is, I want more to do. I want more responsibility! I have been doing this for three years, by the way, so I have all of my regular duties down. The thing is, no one will give me more to do. I have asked my boss for more things to work on, or what she would like me to do. All she ever says is, “No, I don’t have anything more for you right now.”

    I have spoken to my coworkers, the other assistants, to see if I can help them with anything and all they ever say is, “No thanks, I’ve got it.”

    I have offered to help the lawyers directly but they give everything they need to their personal assistants (who are the same ones telling me no thanks).

    I just really, really want to move up. But there is nowhere for me to go. It’s a small firm and every position is filled and will be for the foreseeable future. I don’t really want to look for a new job because this is a good place and everyone is good here–I don’t really want to risk not having that the next time.

    I realize I am on the bottom rung as far as seniority so I’m not pushing to all of a sudden be made a lawyer or anything. But I just want…something. Even just one more thing to add in to my normal duties that I can work on. Since I have already asked everyone multiple times and my boss insists that there is nothing more to be done or be worked on, I don’t know where to go from here.

    1. fposte*

      Unfortunately, I think you’ve got a choice to make. Is the atmosphere there more important to you than advancement? If so, for how long will that be true–if you’re still doing the same work at the same rate in 10 years is that okay?

      Right now you’re stuck in that place where I think we’ve all been with jobs and people–you like so much about this, and it could be perfect if only it changed these few things! But it’s probably not going to change those things. What do you want to do if that’s the case?

      1. Anon Today*

        Agreed. Seriously consider how long you can put up with this.
        Wouldn’t it be better to be in a position that’s more interesting and engaging, where you can develop your skills professionally? (And probably earn more also?)

        I understand job searching is a very stressful/difficult thing to put oneself through, but at least you would be able to take your time with it to find something suitable — which may take many months, but could be worthwhile.

        It’s your call.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree, you have to make the choice to either stay in a good firm and be comfortable but underutilized or you have to look elsewhere. There are a lot of places that will throw all the work you want at you until you scream uncle out there.

      When you hit the ceiling in any organization, you have to make that hard choice in the end. Sometimes people are happy at that ceiling and it’s great. Others [like myself] would have a horrible mental side effect for it. This is why I one time ended up with 3 jobs to fill my desire to work.

    3. Interplanet Janet*

      Are there certifications or anything that would make you more qualified for your line of work? Anything you could work on online while you’re at the office? Or even in person classes you could take where you could do your homework in the office?

      If you ask for more to do and the response is that they don’t have anything, can you go to your immediate manager and ask directly “what should I be doing today?”

  119. Rusty Shackelford*

    Very low-stakes question time! :-) How do you answer your phone if you have caller ID and it’s clearly an internal call, from someone you know? Do you answer it the way you would for an unknown caller? Or do you launch in with “Hi Jane?”

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I don’t get a lot of calls, so I always look at the screen. So if it’s internal I just answer it with “Hey yo, what’s up Person?”

      But when I’m on a high call job, I’m on a script and I don’t even think about it before I pick up. So it’s the standard script.

      I have blown so many minds answering it knowing who it is and they are like “How did you know?” “Caller ID, it’s a new thing the kids are using these days.” ;)

      1. Rusty Shackelford*

        For a lengthy period, my department was the only one that didn’t have caller ID, and most people I worked with (in other departments) didn’t realize that, and it drove me crazy that they never identified themselves!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yuck!

          I do hate when people assume you have caller ID and don’t leave a GD call back number though. That’s happened a few times or they get salty when you ask for it.

          1. TPS Report Coversheet*

            Even worse is the number you see is the company switchboard, and then you try and call up and ask for mumble-mumble…

    2. Glomarization, Esq.*

      Known: “Glomarization speaking.”

      Unknown: “Hello/Hi, Firstname Glomarization speaking.” (I’m admittedly brusque.)

    3. government worker*

      Depends on my relationship with the coworker. If we’re friendly/casual, it’s a “hey, Jane! What’s up?” If it’s someone I don’t know super well, a warm “hello” usually works, without a name.

    4. Murphy*

      If it’s someone I know well and we’re friendly, I’ll say “Hi Jane.” Even if I recognize the name if I don’t know them super well, I’ll just to the regular greeting. (I have internal clients, so all of my calls are internal.)

    5. Rebecca*

      I answer “hi, this is Rebecca, can I help you?” or something along those lines, because I found out the hard way that if someone transfers a call on our system, and doesn’t announce who it is, you know, like someone in upper management, answering “hey, what’s up” isn’t the best foot forward. Our caller ID shows the name of the person transferring the call and not where the call is coming from :P

      1. Elaine*

        Yes, a similar thing happened to me (twice before I learned) when someone was calling me from someone else’s phone. I didn’t say anything embarrassing, just “Hi, [phone owner’s name].” So it wouldn’t hurt to say “Hi, [whoever] rather than a more formal answer. But I wouldn’t say anything flippant or too casual. It might not be who you think.

    6. TPS Report Coversheet*

      When cell phones and Call ID was a new thing, I used to prank people answering with their name instead of mine…. like ”Captain Janeway calling the transporter room.” Instead of ”Transporter room this is Neelix”

    7. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Unknown caller OR identified internal caller, outside of my department, both get the same semi-formal response.

      Known caller, in my department: “Hey, what’s up?”

    8. LQ*

      I don’t do this often, but I’ve occasionally just launched into the thing, usually when someone has been iming or slacking with me and said they’d call cause it’s faster. “So what I’m trying to ask about here is…” I’ve had other people do it to me as well and if we’ve got a good relationship it isn’t disconcerting, but only when it feels like a baton pass of the conversation.

      I usually go with a “Hey Jane…” when it’s a person I’m going to have a more casual conversation with or a more formal external greeting if it’s a conversation I’m not going to like.

    9. Dust Bunny*

      [department]! Maybe [department!] this is [Dust Bunny]! if its somebody who doesn’t call often.

    10. Constance Lloyd*

      Unknown: “Llama braiding, this is Constance.”
      Known: simply “This is Constance.”

      I work from home and the way outbound calls work at my organization, the same number shows up no matter who is calling me, so I never know if I’m answering a coworker, my boss, HR, or my doctor. ‘Tis a truly joyful game of phone roulette.

      1. Constance Lloyd*

        Sometimes coworkers will IM that they’re about to call, which is considerate. Then I usually answer with, “Hey, dude.”

    11. MinotJ*

      “Microbiology, this is MinotJ” – no matter who the caller ID says. Maybe it’s my friendly boss who wants to ask an easy question, but maybe her grandboss is using her office while he’s in town. Maybe it’s the chatty doctor who wants to make smalltalk and acts like we’re buddies – but maybe this is the rare time when he’s in a hurry and barks at me.

  120. I Don't Want to Have to Leave*

    What does someone have to do to get fired?

    Oscar, my transitioning coworker (who still uses male pronouns for the time being) that I’ve posted about before (slams books, stomps out of meetings, etc.), posted publicly on social media that he was awaiting a job offer from another company, then posted a few days later about his disappointment in not getting. PUBLICLY, as in anyone anywhere in the world could find it. He then posted publicly about how our company catfished him into taking the job and lied about the benefits (which I believe I told you are not great here). Management got wind of this, he was called into his boss’s office, and the net result is….. he’s still here, but he tightened up security on his social media accounts.

    He really is bulletproof.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It depends on the organization and management, every single time.

      Sometimes he’d be fired for just farting in the wrong room other times…to quote the unnamed, you could shoot someone in Times Square and get away with it. Seriously.

      1. DCGirl*

        He’s privy to a lot of sensitive information in this job and clearly has one foot out the door…. plus he’s been rude and aggressive to countless cow0rkers. It just boggles my tired little mind.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Some management seriously is that out of touch and hands off. It is mind boggling for those of us who aren’t such creatures! I recall other posts about this person and they should have been fired a million years ago but yeah, I still sadly get why he hasn’t been. Cuz laziness and ineptitude is ingrained in the organization somewhere, so aggressive and erratic behavior is “oh that’s just Oscar.”

          1. I Don't Want to Have to Leave*

            He’s actually a fairly new employee (under six months), which is what makes it all the more perplexing to me.

          2. Fortitude Jones*

            I still believe they’re not doing anything about him because they’re afraid of a lawsuit. Oscar used his transition as an excuse to why he was blowing up at people last time if I’m remembering correctly – I just think management is tippy-toing around him not necessarily because they’re lazy, but because they don’t like the optics of firing him when he’s going through gender reassignment.

            1. I don't want to have to leave*

              Possibly. Although when I spoke to HR about the latest book-slamming incident, that HR rep was apparently not explicitly aware of his transitioning, but did say it explained a lot of what she’d observed/heard about him.

      2. I Don't Want to Have to Leave*

        I used to work in a place where there was a bulletproof employee who could do no wrong. We used to the joke that he must have pictures of the CEO engaged in sexual relations with farm animals that he was using to keep his job. I just wonder what Oscar has/says/does to keep his job.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yeah, I’ve known those people too sadly and made similar jokes along the way. “Oh did he find you in a compromising position, why does he get to have this kind of nonsensical free range?!”

          Then again I have heard stories about old former employees at a place I used to work that actually were engaged in an affair and so yeah, that’s why one was not only paid an outrageous amount despite being awful and non-existent.

    2. LGC*

      So, like – in isolation this just doesn’t sound that bad. Oscar isn’t a public representative of the company, right? So the damage is limited, and I can understand why he’d just get slapped on the wrist and told to hide his bad posts.

      Do they even know about his abusive behavior, though? That sounds way more concerning, and if they’re sweeping that under the rug that’s cause for alarm. But from what I remember, he punches down and people are afraid to escalate, right?

      1. I don't want to have to leave*

        He bangs and slams, yes. It did escalate, with him walking into a conference room after a conversation in which I’d asked him to show me more respect, throwing a heavy three-inch binder down, and then stalking back out to get his coffee. I was the only person in there, waiting for everyone else, and I feel strongly that he would not have done that if there had been other people. I spoke to HR on Thursday; I’ll be filing a written complaint.

  121. KnittyGritty*

    Former FSA (flexible spending accounts – lumping in health care, dependent care, and commuter plans) administrator here. You won’t want to have your company do the administration for the FSA plan. When health care FSA claims are submitted, medical information is needed for the claims – information on doctor’s visits, prescriptions, etc. It’s the nature of how FSA claims are adjudicated. The HR person/department should not have that information ever in my opinion. The company that administers your other benefits should be able to offer FSA plans or at least point your company in the right direction. Also, The Employer’s Council on Flexible Compensation (ECFC) is a great resource for information. I think a link may not get posted, but you can Google them.

    I’m giving your HR person the side-eye though. They may be fine at other HR duties, but they don’t seem to know much about how the benefits side of HR works…

      1. CmdrShepard4ever*

        Thank you I appreciate the reply.

        My understanding (I’m just a low level non HR employee who did a bit of research) is that there are companies we can hire (pay a per person fee for the commuter and FSA benefit) that would handle most if not all of the administration for the plan. Hiring the 3rd party company seems easy enough to me. I just wasn’t sure if our HR person or AP person would have to do a lot of work to set it up and keep it going.

        I assume that after initial setup my employer just needs to transfer the fee’s and money over to the 3rd party company every month?

        1. KnittyGritty*

          Yup. You guys will send over the payroll deductions and whatever fees and the 3rd party administrator should take of the rest. I’ve been out of the FSA business for a while, but I’m a huge fan (well, nerd) about it.

    2. DCGirl*

      I worked for a university that self-administered its FSA. An unmarried professor had a vasectomy, the FSA person couldn’t understand why a single man would want one (because everyone should want to have children someday, right?), and blabbed about it all over campus. It was a huge mess.

        1. DCGirl*

          Counseled, yes. Fired, no. It was, pardon my language, an old biddy who’d been in the Finance department forever and she was kind of the sacred cow of the university. She did retire a few years later.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        JFC.

        Doctors give you f’ing counseling when you choose sterilization either as a woman or man, so I ‘m even more enraged this got out and is gossip.

  122. Fake Old Converse Shoes (not in the US)*

    I noticed that in the last month people started posting their complete CVs in LinkedIn, with desperate pleas for help that include sentences like “I can’t paid my kids schools and food is running out”, “help me survive”, “I’m losing all hope in humanity”. Has anyone else seen this on their network?

    1. Milana*

      Because of one connection I have from France I keep seeing French students looking for employment in a work&study program. So no desperate please but really many PDFs. And they all seem to have been told it is a good idea to have your language skills and other skills (with self-evaluation…) on the side in a column. There seems to be a template going around.
      As for the desperate pleas, it would break my heart to see so many people in terribly hard situations but it is also very off-putting from the point of view of someone who has done hiring.

      1. TPS Report Coversheet*

        Have you ever seen the official EU CV-template? Google for europass… the French template sounds like one I came across a few days back.

        1. Milana*

          Yes, it is a short version of the Europass, you are right! Thanks for helping me find the name.
          I really don’t like that format, makes it harder to find certain information. And no, I don’t know what 3/5 means for your teamwork skills.

          1. TPS Report Coversheet*

            The europass comes with a legend. I have mine a cleaned out format from that, and I don’t use the B2 C3 evaluations… fluent, conversationsl for languages and at my age giving skills a grade is a bit silly. Though I think I need to make a fresh new europass as theres some contracting in the horizon.

            It is actually a good idea of having a standardised format on everything. Or how the hell do you compare if you have a graduate from a polytechnic with an Magna Cum Laude and one from a college with 2:1, much easier if you see they both hve ECTS 210 credits degree and an average of 3 on a 1-5 scale.

    2. Booksalot*

      I’m seeing a lot of grads blanket posting their resumes and asking people to PM them with jobs. Even if they are also actively looking, it comes across as though they’re sitting back and waiting to be handed opportunities. It’s cringey.

  123. tinybitbyte*

    My soon-to-be-ex employee might be posioning my other other direct reports on his way out. I have problematic employee with poor performance, office dramatics, and attendance issues that I was getting ready to put on a PIP. He either got wind of the severity of my concerns with his performance based on our most recent feedback session or just finally realized that my standard of ensuring he was at work for the day was too much and put in his resignation. However two other people I manage are longtime friends of the problematic employee and since the resignation notice I feel that I’m getting more push back than normal from those other two direct reports. Perhaps I’m just on edge because I’m on pins and needles waiting for the proverbial “mic drop” on the way out from the resigner; but in several incidents this week I’ve not been notified of things under my purview to help with or need to be aware of. I’ve had good relationships with these two employees in the past, so not being informed or skipped in communication is out of the norm from them.

    Right now my plan is to just keep an eye on it until the person resigns and see if the everyone, myself included, settle down after the fact. If it continues, then I can have a conversation with them. Does that sound like the right course of action?

    1. Academic librarian*

      This happened to me.

      First clear conversational language with your supervisor.

      If the resigned employee is on the last two weeks. Pay them and give them the time off right away.

      Have one on ones with the friend reports. Keep it simple. Bob is no longer working here. They resigned.
      Move the conversation to your expectations for their job performance.
      Refuse to speak of Bob and his work, except to note that how you are satisfied with the performance of each friend and they will have a clear understanding if that is not the case.

    2. Lily B*

      Focus on the behavior, not what they might or might not be feeling inside their heads. If you would normally feel the need to address the lack of communication, then you should do so. But don’t assume it’s because of the problem employee resigning or them being mad at you.

      Even if they’re longtime friends of this guy, they probably at least have an inkling that he wasn’t a great employee. And if you’re overall a fair, decent and pleasant manager to work for, then they have that information too. They may not have any negative feelings toward you at all; they could just be upset about the cheese being moved and not getting to work with their friend anymore.

    1. Behind Anemone Lines*

      Hilarious! I’m the office laugh factory. This gives me an idea. I will leave this job, everyone knows it, just I/we don’t know when (Husband and I don’t intend to stay in this city for more than 2 years). Hmmmm.

    3. dealing with dragons*

      I thought about doing this, but I knew my actual loss would be a blow to the team and it wouldn’t play well.

  125. Free Meerkats*

    The joys of being the designated call in person. This morning I got a call at 0230 from the work alarm company. They heard what sounded like breaking glass and they’d dispatched police. Then I got a call from the police asking what time I’d arrive to let them through the gate. I got to work to find 5 cruisers and a Sergeant. I let them through the gate, they searched, said all secure, and left.
    When I went into the building, I discovered a cookie tin that had vibrated off the top of the fridge. So I made coffee and settled into my work day. That means I get 3 hours of overtime call out pay, and my weekend starts 5 hours early. Even though I’ve downed an entire pot of coffee, I’m tired.

    1. Jaid*

      I feel for ya.

      Last night, I went out to dinner with a group of co-workers, ate too much (Korean BBQ, yum), and had trouble sleeping upright to avoid indigestion.

      I mean, I think I slept. Right now I’m doing data entry while feeling like I’m underwater.

      At least you’re getting O/T. Yay?

    2. New Normal*

      Sounds like you’re at least able to find the silver lining to the situation. I’d be tempted to handcuff the cookie jar.

  126. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

    Everywhere I have worked has had a “Baby at Work” program for all new parents and, from reading this site, I realize this isn’t the norm. Basically parents can bring their baby until they are 6 months old if they want to. Obviously there is occasional crying and occasional distraction because some coworkers really like holding and playing with the babies, making faces at them in meetings, etc., but over all it seems to work out well for new parents and I personally haven’t found it too disruptive even though we are in a cube farm. And I’m not a baby/child person.

    I was wondering if other folks had similar programs at their jobs and what folks think about this sort of concept in general? Would you want it at your job?

    1. Anathema Device*

      Would I want to listen to babies crying all day while I worked?

      No. No I would not!

    2. Murphy*

      My daughter literally screamed at me for 8+ hours a day when I was on maternity leave, so I can’t imagine this. I was so relieved when I could hand her off to daycare. I can’t imagine how this wouldn’t be disruptive.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        One of my co-workers felt the same after she had her daughter. She even cut maternity leave super short because she was completely done and definitely didn’t even attempt bringing her in

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Baby sleeps all day and its very possible that you may no know there’s a baby there? Sure. I’m ok with it. Baby is colicky and screams/cries constantly? No. Unfortunately, you really can’t do a partial policy, so I’m going to come down on the side of no babies at work.

    4. Where have all the jobs gone?*

      I wonder if this is different if you have children? I find a crying baby much more distracting than friends who are mothers – are you more able to tune it out if you have lots of experience of babies? Same with baby “burbling” noises – I find them very distracting when others haven’t even noticed there’s a baby in the room.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      One of my old jobs, the person in my spot previously essentially raised her daughter at work. She brought in the play pen and the kiddo hungout until they were two, then she decided to go back to school. Otherwise it probably would have been until the kid was in school.

      I like the concept when it’s not disruptive [it was a solo office and customers were dealt with online/on the phone] and the kiddo was lowkey. But yeah it’s not ideal for high traffic and high energy offices.

      1. DANGER: Gumption Ahead*

        I’m loving these responses because the perspective is so different. It is such a common thing in my field that in 20-odd years I have never worked somewhere that didn’t have it and it didn’t even occur to me how weird my niche must be (health and social services focused research)

        1. valentine*

          I would not accept a job at a company that had this.
          What if, like the unfortunate person with the dog allergy, they interviewed you elsewhere and you arrived on day one to a creche?

          I feel programmed to want to pick up crying babies.

    7. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      I think it’s really similar to a dog friendly office. Some people love (or at least have a high tolerance for) babies and wouldn’t mind the occasional disruption. For some people, this would be a literal financial life-saver. For others, this is their version of hell and there’s no way they will ever set foot in that building. For yet others, the other benefits of working for that company would outweigh the perceived negatives of having babies in their workspace. The only thing that would make this a 100% crappy thing (in my opinion) would be if the company uses this baby-friendly policy to pressure parents not to take leave, or to come back to work earlier than they otherwise would.

      Like all benefits, this should be disclosed to potential employees so they can make their own decision about whether this is a workplace that fits their needs.

    8. First Time Caller*

      I had it at a previous job (where it was someone else bringing in their baby) and it was great. I really enjoyed seeing the baby, and she was in the office part-time and at a babysitter other times. It essentially was a benefit in lieu of more leave time (that our very small nonprofit couldn’t afford to pay for) and that’s how I’ve seen it used other places too. *However* it is so, so, so dependent on the temperament of the baby and whether the parent is considerate of their coworkers — there’s a lot of ways it can go wrong, and it can put supervisor or coworkers in the position of being the bad guy if it’s not working. My own baby, who is extremely social and going through a shrieking phase, would…not be a good fit for my current low-key office where most of what I do is send and receive emails. I’m glad she’s at daycare interacting and actually doing stuff without me having to entertain her.

    9. Dust Bunny*

      This would not work at my job. Both the employees and our patrons need reliable quiet, and we can’t keep doors closed because we have to semi-supervise and be accessible to patrons.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          The idea of “dog friendly archives” is right up there with “knife friendly kindergarten” in terms of vivid mental image of something that would not work well.

    10. Anon Librarian*

      I’ve worked in kid-friendly offices and, honestly, I thought it was nice. The adults behaved more maturely when there was a child present, and the children kind of lightened up the atmosphere. They were well-behaved. There were never any issues with screaming or other disruptive behavior.

      However, I can see it not working. And, knowing that a lot of people are uncomfortable around kids but don’t want to talk about it because of the stigma, it raises a lot of questions about inclusiveness.

      So my verdict is: On a personal level, I thought it was great, but companies need to proceed with caution. No one should be forced to be around the kids. There should be a strategy in place to make everyone feel comfortable, welcome, and able to do their work as they usually do.

    11. Art3mis*

      I’ve never seen it at any company I’ve worked for and I’d run screaming from any place that offered it. I don’t even like it when people bring their new babies in to “show off” to their coworkers. I’m not a baby person.

    12. Rachael W.*

      It sounds like my idea of hell. I wouldn’t take a job in such an environment, and I’d be willing to leave a job if they tried to implement this.

      Don’t have kids, don’t want kids, don’t want to have to spend 8+ hours per day with other people’s kids.

      Thankfully where I live you get six months maternity leave so this isn’t generally an issue.

  127. Foon*

    I have a question regarding travel and rewards programs- I know that you can generally use your per diem on food, snacks, coffee etc as you see fit, but I am a Starbucks fan and I would hate to purchase a beverage from them and let the reward “stars” go to waste. Does anyone have any thoughts on the ethics of using your travel card to add money to your starbucks account and then purchasing your drink through the app? For those of you who don’t know, the starbucks app stores a digital “giftcard” on your account, which you can refill using a credit or debit card, then you purchase items using your gift card balance and are rewarded for those purchases with stars. It really isn’t a huge deal in the grand scheme of things, but not collecting those rewards feels like I’m leaving money on the table.

    1. Where have all the jobs gone?*

      Check your work’s travel/expenses policy and see if there are any similar scenarios? My work (local government) bans the personal collection of air miles whilst traveling on business and states that any travel refunds or bonus nights should be turned over to the workplace. I would therefore think my employer would disapprove of the collection of any personal reward points?

      1. valentine*

        With the per diem, you’re already getting refreshments you don’t have to pay for. Take the win.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Unless you are given explicit permission ahead of time, I’d avoid using the per diem to put money on your Starbucks account, I think the optics would be poor. But (knowing your office of course) it might be worth asking beforehand, especially if that person is a big starbucks person too.

      I could be totally wrong, but doesn’t Starbucks have a way to validate purchases made outside of your account? I remember one time their system was down so you couldn’t use the app or your starbucks card when paying but they had a sign on the register for how to get the stars for your purchases.

      1. Foon*

        The “pay in store” option just allows you to order at the register. Scanning that QR code pulls the money from your digital gift card, the same way ordering ahead does.

    4. Schnoodle HR*

      I would not do this. We use the Starbucks rewards too and have yet to have any rewards remotely worthwhile so I’m not sure what you’re missing out on. And DH uses it 2 or 3 times a week and we’ve had it a year, still have found absolutely no benefit to their reward system.

      But to your original question, don’t do this. I also wouldn’t even ask to do this, it seems a little petty. They’re already paying for it, let it be.

      1. Foon*

        The rewards are free drinks. It seems more than worthwhile to me (though obviously not worthwhile enough to damage my reputation at work over it).

    5. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I’d avoid it – not just for the direct ethical issue with the rewards (which might or might not be in play here as well depending on the policies around things like airline bonus miles), but because if you’ve been asked to charge all expenses to a company card rather than given a per diem they presumably want the ability to keep track of the specific purchases. Transferring money to a gift card obscures what you are actually spending the money on and when you are spending it, so can be an issue from an accountability perspective.

      If it’s a true per diem in a flat “you can spend $75 (or whatever) per travel day, we don’t care on what, and if you don’t charge that much per day on your card we’ll send you a check for the rest of it afterward” situation, that would be different (and in which case the obvious thing to do would be to buy the drinks with your own gift card money on the spot and then recharge your gift card out of that bonus reimbursement later), but if they want detailed tracking of purchases and for only certain types of purchases to count against a certain expense limit it’s best to keep the charges as clean as possible so it’s clear you’re not trying to get away with anything.

    6. Fortitude Jones*

      I would not do this – the company’s card is not your money. If you want to use your app, put your own money on it, order your drink, and expense it later.

  128. Academic librarian*

    Procrastination:
    Need to get my piled up office cleaned up. It is a quiet day. The sun is shining. I am going to give it an hour and 1/2 then bail.

  129. ThisIshRightHere*

    An employee came to me in tears a couple weeks ago letting me know that she is completely stressed out because she is so afraid of me*. [Un]coincidentally, this employee had just come off a PIP and had recently been counseled for some serious backsliding she was doing. She blamed this intense fear she has for the reason she keeps dropping the ball at work. As it turns out, she will have to be terminated in the next few days.

    My concern? As a professional Black woman, I have been accused of being “intimidating” for my entire career. The same confidence that in other women would be seen as inspiring, is regarded as arrogant when coming from me.
    Me politely informing someone that “I’m sorry, but I have the conference room booked starting at 11 and my guests will be arriving any minute. Would you mind clearing the room as soon as you can?” gets tearfully interpreted to management as “ThisIshRightHere yelled at me and kicked me out of a room for no reason!” And so on and so on. In her post-termination grievance, I’m sure this notion that I scared her into incompetence will surface. And I’m concerned that the review board (which is comprised of just the type of individuals who may be prone toward racialized sterotyping and whatnot) will eat it right up. Any advice for me?

    *A few notes: I genuinely believe the employee was conflating fear of losing her job and discomfort with receiving negative feedback with being afraid of me as a person/manager. I talked it over with several people who know me well, and every last one of them responded with laughter or bewilderment at the idea of anyone ever being afraid of me. I don’t raise my voice, ever. I’m polite and professional to a fault. When I counsel employees, I stick to the facts and don’t ever make it personal. I show compassion where I can (I let this same employee completely off the hook for an important assignment and did it myself when I learned a distant relative of hers had died). I can assure you beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have never in my career (or life) engaged in any kind of bullying behavior or contributed to a hostile work environment.

    1. Ugh*

      The perils of being a person of color in an office. I would have a preemptive talk with your manager, since they are familiar with your managerial style and can back you up that this is bogus. Then I would prepare solid examples of how you attempted to correct the incompetence (emails etc.) to have in case this comes up after her exit interview.

      But as an aside, she’s definitely not THAT intimidated by you since she was able to tell you to your face that she was afraid of you.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        Thanks for that. Interesting point about how someone who is truly afraid of me would be unlikely to charge into my office to inform me that she’s afraid of me, lol. I saw then that the accusation was ridiculous. I see now that it was definitely a ploy to get me to cut down on the well-deserved negative feedback she was regularly receiving.

      2. Dust Bunny*

        Seriously, that sounds like some manipulative BS. I’ve had scary bosses and there is NO WAY ON EARTH I’d have told them I thought they were scary.

    2. CmdrShepard4ever*

      By review board do you mean unemployment review board, or an internal company review board to decide if employee should be fired? If it is unemployment review board, I don’t think it should really matter unless the company challenges the unemployment claim. Usually being fired for bad performance is not considered just cause to deny unemployment benefits, it usually has to be something more serious.

      If it is internal company review board to determine if they can be fired, then I just second “Ugh’s” suggestions about making sure your boss is update on all the steps you took.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        It’s an internal review board. An ad-hoc board is pulled together for each grievance and it’s a requirement that the members have never worked with either of the parties. HR is fully abreast of the steps I took, but I could do more to clue in my upper management as well. Thanks!

        P.S. my supervisor told me that if I had gotten much further in my career without terminating someone, or being the subject of a grievance or EEO complaint, it would raise a question about whether I was really managing at all. I think his point was that all good managers piss of somebody from time to time. At least, I hope it was.

        1. CmdrShepard4ever*

          I agree with the general point I think your supervisor was trying to make. But I want to push back (not on you, just a general push back on the idea) that in order to be a good manager you need to rack up a stack of EEO complaints, and fire people. While it is true anyone can file a complaint, and even if the complaint does not merit EEOC involvement, the EEOC is a high bar to clear. Just because managers have not done anything “illegal” does not mean they are perfect/good managers. Bad managers may not be illegal, but it still does not make them right or good. Just to be clear I am not trying to imply you are a bad manager just making general statements.

          Additional suggestion is to document everything and CYA with the employee that is going to be fired. If possible conduct as much interaction in writing or with other people present.

          1. Lilysparrow*

            I think the point of the comment was entirely about frivolous/vengeful EEO complaints. Not justified ones.

        2. Ask a Manager* Post author

          I do think it’s true that if you manage for long enough, you’re going to have to fire someone at some point, and there’s a point where if you’ve managed enough people and never fired anyone, it’ll raise questions about how high your bar is and/or how forthrightly you deal with problems.

          It’s not that you should be cavalier about firing, of course! It’s that hiring isn’t a perfect science and at some point you’re going to hire someone who just isn’t right, or inherit a team with problems, or so forth.

    3. RandomU...*

      It might be because you are a POC, but honestly in this case I think it’s because you’re the big meanie who is holding her to standards and telling her that she was backsliding.

      It does sound like she’s making a case for this to be your fault, but I’m assuming that you’ve managed to the PIP and have had your HR in the loop all the way through as well as your boss. I don’t have any advice for the review board except to have your documentation ready to go and to be prepared for it as much as you can.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I had this BS happen before and I’m not POC, I am however a woman. So oh noes, authoritative women, how awful are they!!!

      This is the risk you do face being in management and I’ve seen it thrown in mens faces all the time that “oh you’re such a big meanie and I’m scurred of you.” from people who are just awful workers.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        This is not happening because I’m Black or because I’m a woman. It’s happening because my employee is unhinged. That aside, the concern is about how easy it is for some folks to gobble up “my boss is a sassy Black woman” dog whistles because “of course, that IS how they are, isn’t it?” Next thing, all my management decisions are being considered through a lens of “well everybody knows she has ABW syndrome, so…” I have seen similar things play out in other scenarios, so I am not just playing the what-if game here.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        This sounds very much like you’re minimizing ThisIshRightHere’s very real concern that her employee is playing the intimidation card because of the angry black woman stereotype that a lot of people buy into – don’t do that. You may get accused of being mean as a white woman, and men may get accused of it to, but there’s a much deeper, historical problem at play here that you and men don’t deal with on a regular basis.

    5. animaniactoo*

      #1, remain calm.

      #2, you can do some direct reflection with her: “So when I asked you to clear the conference room because I had booked it starting at 11 and stated that my guests would be arriving momentarily, that felt like I was yelling at you and you didn’t understand why I was asking you to leave?”

      If the review board is not live, then you state it calmly as “On that occasion, I explained that … , however Jan consistently failed to hear the entirety of what I was saying, as documented in her PIP, so I am sure that it felt to her like there was no reason.”

      #3, remain calm.

      Your best weapon is being ruthlessly practical, logical, and calmly presenting them with an image of you that in no way bears out what she is saying about you.

      1. ThisIshRightHere*

        Thanks so much for the advice! I wanted to clarify for other readers that I’m not saying I believe the employee is claiming to be afraid of me for any racial reasons. I’m saying that I’m concerned that an accusation of me being an angry/sassy/scary Black woman may resonate with a panel of strangers who may be inclined to accept the characterization as fact, because they, statistically speaking, are likely to be privileged, white, and unaccustomed to thinking critically in order to challenge these kinds of tropes.

        1. Tabby Baltimore*

          I’m trying to think of a way, in addition to the advice from animaniactoo above, to help you help your board somehow re-frame the impressive levels of cognitive distortion your employee is exhibiting here. The only thing I can think of to add–and I have no idea whether this will help–is to point out to them that your employee had a pattern of consistently “defaulting to the negative” (you must have a ton of examples of this, I’m sure, and I suspect you weren’t the only person she was like this with, even though she might not have treated others as extremely as she treated you) and never seemed to consider a neutral, or even a positive, interpretation of what she was hearing from you (or anyone else). Her reflexively negative interpretations of everything you (and others) said, without ever taking the time to consider an alternative, made it impossible for her to take in, much less act on, any behavioral coaching to improve her listening skills, so it was no wonder her workplace performance just continued spiraling downward. I hope you will let us know how you decided to handle this, and how things went. We are rooting for you.

  130. Work clothes*

    I am a woman working in a casual office- jeans and t-shirts are very common, shorts are not unheard of, senior people sometimes throw on a tie for big meetings. Many people’s jobs have an outdoor component as well so people wearing dirty field clothes in the office is also not weird, just to give an idea of the level of casualness. Most of the time by preference I dress fairly androgynously, wearing unisex/mens t-shirts or button-downs. However, I am currently pregnant, and have reached the point where I need maternity clothes, which really only come in women’s styles. I am generally ok with this (except for the pocket situation, argh), but there are some features of women’s shirts that I am not sure how to deal with in a work setting. One, necklines are wider/deeper, so I suddenly have cleavage, and two, sleeves are much shorter and I don’t like removing body hair (just me, you do you) so my armpit hair is sometimes visible. This has made me kind of self-conscious about bending over, lifting my arms up, etc. Is this… a problem? Unprofessional? Or should I just not care and go about my day? I essentially never deal with clients, if that is a factor.

    1. I'm A Little Teapot*

      You’re over thinking this! If the people you work with are ok with literal dirt on clothing in the office, they can survive armpit hair.

    2. Amber Rose*

      I work in a similar environment, and the nature of my bust means everything that isn’t a turtleneck shows cleavage. It’s fine. Women have boobs, at some point the rest of the world has to kind of accept that. And I’m pretty sure nobody is looking at your armpits. Though if you’re really uncomfortable, you could look into like, a loose button up to wear over your shirts that you don’t have to button up, but will have sleeves long enough to hide anything. I had a loose white shirt I picked up in Mexico once for that purpose, I loved that thing. Never got hot even in very high temps.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      People aren’t paying that much attention in that atmosphere! You’re noticing because it’s your body and you’re all too aware of it.

      I would just make sure that you’re mindful of bending over in front of people. Nobody is staring at your pits and if they are, they get to deal with their weird kink on their own time!

    4. TheRedCoat*

      If you want to stick with men’s clothes, I wore a button down man’s shirt belted over the bump when I started outgrowing my clothes. I also don’t think what you’re describing is unprofessional.

    5. Arielle*

      Ooh, are you me? Here is what I (an androgynous-dressing person) have worn every day of my pregnancy: maternity jeans (Old Navy has a straight leg pair with five pockets!), plain or striped maternity T-shirt (H&M or Old Navy), and my own men’s short-sleeved button-up unbuttoned over the top. Luckily I have a LOT of men’s button-ups since it’s pretty much all I wear in the summer so I’m able to mix and match quite a bit.

      1. Arielle*

        Totally forgot to address the cleavage issue which I agree has been a problem. I’m only wearing sports bras to kind of flatten everything out and all my T-shirts are crew necks, which are cut higher.

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      If you prefer men’s button downs, wear a loose pregnancy tank and put the preferred shirt over top unbuttoned.
      Otherwise – you do you boo and wear what you want

    7. Finkfink*

      I am short and well-endowed, so many shirts that are fine on others reveal quite deep cleavage on me. I’ve got a supply of shirts from a company called Halftee that makes cropped undershirts (with bands on the lower hem to keep them from riding up) in several styles (tank to long sleeve) I can layer underneath shirts that are too low-cut on me for work.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Talbot’s makes some great tunics, boatbeck tops, etc that my SIL wore instead of maternity, for the most part. Some tops have quite a bit of room. She just moved to Plus or Plus Petite. They’re doing 40% off on a lot of things right now.

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Seconded. I had a few maternity pieces of clothing but a lot was just larger sizes in forgiving styles. Tank tops with a button down shirt, usually unbuttoned, is one of my go to styles and worked really well for pregnancy.

    8. Adele*

      Lands End makes maternity polo shirts. Do a search on their website for maternity because they don’t show up any other way. In the past Target had nice, simple button front maternity shirts. I haven’t checked recently.

      I also own some dickies (for lack of a better term) that are pieces of lace trimmed fabric with snap loops at the ends to go around you bra strap. They look like a cami to cover cleavage but without the bulk or extra layer. I bought them at CVS several years ago.

  131. Can You Hear Me Now?*

    Had a phone interview yesterday. I have such mixed feelings. Our conversation took up an entire half hour, but I have no idea how I did. I couldn’t get a read on the hiring manager because I couldn’t see her facial expression to take cues for when I was talking too much etc. Plus we had to stop multiple times because she couldn’t hear me, and I’m worried we may have cut out while I was speaking somehow.

    TLDR I get why phone interviews are a good way to screen people, but I hate them.

    1. Constance Lloyd*

      I totally get it, but I’m searching for jobs several states away and I WISH companies were more willing to do a first round phone interview! I’m too mid-level for anyone to fly me out and I would really prefer to confirm mutual interest before investing in travel, it’s been a slog.

  132. Scully*

    How do you navigate a leadership role (but not a management role) over a bunch of 60ish conservative men when you are a 30ish woman, and you are implementing work methodology they are not on board with?

    This is a tech field and the methodology of work (agile scrum if that means anything to you) is being dictated from above, While I am up for the challenge, they are more jaded and just want to sit at their desks and code, and not be bogged down with what they see as bureaucratic waste.

    It’s not that they have been sexist or ageist towards me, but I mention those things because it adds context. I don’t know if I can stand in front of experienced men my father’s age, and tell them that this is how it’s going to be, and have them respect me and cooperate with me without ending up at square one – which is what’s happening now – they just do the work, perfunctorily show up to the meetings, nothing changes, everyone’s unhappy.

    One of them specifically is a cynical bastard and constantly takes the wind out of my sails with a “you are too young and idealistic” attitude, in basically any context, even casual discussion.

    Sigh!

    1. LCL*

      Whichever management group decided you are now doing things this way must come to a few meetings or sessions and otherwise demonstrate and support that this is being driven from the top. Otherwise it is just new person with new ideas, which come and go all the time.

      1. Scully*

        Thank you! Unfortunately this isn’t that type of situation – this has been in place for a long time and they’ve been resistant to it for just as long. So they’re sure their way of working is best and management doesn’t know anything. I am also a tech, so I’m one of the team who has already been working with them for almost a year.

        1. TPS Report Coversheet*

          Agile Manifesto came out in 2001, but they’ve been saying its newfangled crap for over 20 years, as the underlying bits are from the mid-90’s…

    2. TPS Report Coversheet*

      You’re my boss!
      Ok, no but you could be. Yeah, I feel your pain. Trying to unleash agile as a ”higher management” = ”pointy-haired-bosses” decision onto classic coders who want an actual ”user specification document” instead of a constantly changing specs off a vague ”user story” and having those ”waste-of-time” scrum meetings and then deploying something halfdone undocumented can be challenging. Don’t envy you at all.

      Back in the day there was ”prototyping” and the army used a V-model instead of the classic waterfall… but what would convince the cynical bastards like me? I didn’t feel that much out of water as prototyping had its iterations (scrums) and ”agile” had been around as a theory for a while. However when you try implementing it in a classic environment that does not run agile, ”any database change will need full documentation and testing and 5 days lead time”, if I am the DBA in the scrum team I’ll mostly do nothing as I can only trigger the change after I see the final version.

      My cynicism regarding agile is to explain how an agile house would be built. The easiest user story is to have a shower in the tub. But because you need the foundations, the 1st floor, and the plumbing to be in place, you end up hanging a tub from a crane and using a garden hose, hot water is in the backstory. Now you visualize this in your team and you might understand why they’re not playing ball.

      How to get them to play ball… well, remember to make all the prerequisites in scrum 0, and don’t settle hosing the tub on the crane. Coders have some self-respect usually they don’t want to release duds. And keep the scrum meets short. Also if there are modules that need a clear spec, get the clear spec. Agile or not.

      1. TPS Report Coversheet*

        Oh and if there is a stick threatening they will get replaced by outsourcing, today there was an excellent article on Bloomberg of the Boeing MAX debacle.

    3. Gumby*

      Are TPTB mandating the use of the Scrum framework because it is well-suited for the types of things that you develop or because it is popular? I personally think of Scrum as having less bureaucratic waste than waterfall methods, but it is not suitable for every project.

      Possible idea: Position it as an experiment. Decide what you want to track, grab the results from their current pretend-Scrum ways, ask for a true test of them giving the framework a legitimate try for… 4 sprints or whatever, compare results at the end (assuming they really did get into the spirit of the test). Then you should have enough to either make a case to TPTB that the old ways work better for this group’s project or the results will speak for themselves within the group. Maybe. But it might help get past the initial reluctance.

      1. TPS Report Coversheet*

        Biggest problem is the scrum meets overflow. A scrum meet is just for progress. End-of. No problem-solve brainstorming. You go through the progress – people who have a clear task to continue go continue. Those that need to have a brainstorming session on issues, they have their own post-scrum session.

        Imagine you are doing fine with the back end and you sit half the morning listening the front-end guys bicker over some xmblpft just because your bit is the last on the list? Yes that is ”waste of time”. The scrum master needs to split the progress and let people go do their agile.

        And if less bureaucracy means less documentation, ”good luck trying to get your undocumented and untested software into my system said the BOFH”.

    4. dealing with dragons*

      imo that’s above your paygrade – you do what your management tells you, and if they don’t output then you escalate. ideally you aren’t doing agile in a vacuum, and you have something like an RTE or someone else driving the initiative.

  133. babblemouth*

    Eye roll of the week goes to a colleague who emailed me and a third colleague to state that she felt “personally disrespected” because small edits she had made in a shared document were missing. Lady, if every time Sharepoint messed up and overwrote the wrong changes I took it as a conspiracy against my person, I’d have to wear a tinfoil hat.

    1. Tina Belcher's Less Cool Sister*

      What is with people feeling “personally disrespected” over work issues?? It’s work, nothing is personal!

  134. BRC Burrito*

    Grammar question y’all. How do you refer to attached documents?

    “Please see attached.”

    “Please see the attached spreadsheet.”

    “Document attached.”

    1. babblemouth*

      “As you can see in the powerpoint (attached)”

      “Please note on line 45 of the spreadsheet (attached)”

      Or if the email exists only to send the document: “Please find attached the TPS report”

      1. Where have all the jobs gone?*

        Please find attached the spreadsheet about ###

        Please find attached the meeting agenda

        Or similar – i.e. there should be a file attached to this, and what the file is

    5. Alianora*

      Any of them work, but I like, “See attachment” or “I’ve attached the spreadsheet.”

    6. CAA*

      In the first case, I’d say “Please see the attachment” because I am weird about using “attached” as a noun or leaving an adjective hanging there without its noun. But I use that and the other two pretty much interchangeably.

  135. Where have all the jobs gone?*

    I’m in a profession I love … in a workplace I don’t.

    It’s a very specialist job so vacancies are few and far between, and competition is fierce. Does anyone have any tips for keeping your morale up in this situation?

    I’ve tried volunteering for other activities within my team to broaden my CV, but it’s difficult to keep going when there is just no employment out there, so there’s no escape from the bad workplace. I don’t want to retrain as I do love the job. Does anyone have any suggestions? I’d love to here if people have felt the same in their jobs, and have eventually managed to move on – I feel very isolated at the moment, but surely I’m not alone in this?

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      It may be time to rearrange your life priorities so work is a means to an end and isn’t your primary source of satisfaction and meaning. I’m working on getting there myself, at least.

  136. Salary angst*

    I think I’m somewhat overpaid for my current job in a not-for-profit, due to past performance/possibly overly aggressive negotiating (whoops). However, I switched positions recently and feel guilty, like they’re paying me all this money when I still don’t have a lot of expertise in these new tasks — any advice on how to think about this situation? No one’s really said anything to me, but I sometimes think that my supervisor & the C-suite must be thinking I’m a huge money pit skewing pay scale for others.

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      What do you mean, “whoops”? I would urge you to re-frame this as your having successfully negotiated your value in the job marketplace. Are you concerned that they’re going to demote you or reduce your pay? If so, then consider upping the amount of your take-home that you’re putting into emergency and long-term savings.

    2. Hapless Bureaucrat*

      If they were truly concerned they were overpaying you for your new position, it likely it would have come up at the time you switched. I assume you either had a salary discussion then, or you didn’t have one because it was a lateral move.

      Apart from that, how do you know you’re somewhat overpaid? Have you shared salary information with others at your job, or others in your industry? Is there a general sense of financial desperation in the organization? If you’ve done your research on the context of your salary and work and you’re still worried, go ahead and increase your savings.

      As for how you handle it to your boss and the C-suite? Just do good work. Anyone in a new position has to learn how that position is done for that organization, regardless of prior expertise. Continue to be productive, competent, and show you’re learning whatever you don’t know, and rational people aren’t going to think about your salary.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Agree, there’s no “whoops.” You are clearly adding value to the organization and that’s why they hired you at the salary they did.

      Have you heard of “imposter’s syndrome?” That’s a genuine question, because if this feeling of not being worthy is part of a pattern, it may (or may not) be worth investigating. (You know how the advice you give others is really advice you need yourself?)

      If you’re worried about having a salary cut or decrease, yeah, put more away into savings. Regardless, just keep performing as the BAMF that your colleagues and managers know you to be.

  137. Figgie*

    My spouse is having an issue with his new boss (who was formerly a coworker). My spouse is one of the purple unicorns, in that he is (at last count), the Unix System Admin, Linux System Admin, manages two databases and is also a technical analyst. So, he is busy all of the time and is one of the most productive workers in his IT department.

    So, his boss yesterday complained about a coworker not completing a large project…in fact he never even started it and suggested that my spouse take that project on. My spouse pushed back and reminded his boss that that project was in an area that he had no knowledge of, would take him a significant amount of time and work to just learn about it, let alone completing a massive project on it and that he was quite busy as it was.

    His boss acknowledged how busy my spouse was, but told my spouse that he really wanted the project done. My spouse then told him that all he (the boss) was doing was teaching the coworker that if he avoided doing his job long enough, his work would get assigned to someone else to do, which might not be the message he wants to send. His boss said he would think about it.

    So, my spouse asked me if there were any links on Ask A Manager (I’ve tried searching, but I have limited google-fu) about how damaging it is when bosses dump work from lazy coworkers and put it on busy ones. Even any stories people have to share about how bad it was for them when it happened to them would be a huge help!

    1. Ali G*

      I don’t have specific links, but this sounds like the classic “I understand you want me to prioritize X, but if I do, I won’t be able to complete Y or Z. Are you OK with pushing those deadlines?”
      Basically he can take on the project, but only if the boss let’s him put some other priorities on hold.

    2. Jadelyn*

      Taking work away from ineffective staff and dumping it on your star employees is a terrible idea. You are:

      – rewarding mediocrity and punishing talent/effectiveness
      – fomenting resentment between the effective staff and the lazy ones
      – at the extreme end, you’re going to wind up with effective employees scaling back their own efforts because why should they bust their ass, if all that accomplishes is getting them even more overloaded while their lazy coworkers get to just skate by doing nothing?

      It’s also just an abdication of management responsibility. As a manager, if one member of your staff isn’t performing well, it’s your responsibility to coach/train/hold accountable/etc. until they are performing to standard – or manage them out, if they demonstrate that they can’t do it/won’t do it/would take wayyy more effort than it’s worth to get them to that point. By enabling the crappy employees, the manager is saying “I’m going to take this challenge that should be my responsibility to handle, and make it my star employee’s problem instead.”

      I’ve found a couple of Alison’s posts on the subject, I’ll put them in a separate comment as they’ll probably get stuck in moderation for a bit.

      1. Figgie*

        Thank you so very much! Posts have been sent to my spouse along with the links. No idea what will happen, but as I keep telling him, the worst that happens is you retire 6 months earlier than we had planned and the project gets done by the people they have to hire to replace you. :)

  138. Pinky Pie*

    I’d love to hear your answer to this question- how many days can you miss work without it endangering your job? My bestie is dating a man who seems to get mildly ill a lot (think flu, stomach bug, etc). He’s run out sick leave and said he’ll take vacation leave if he needs it.

    1. fposte*

      There’s no hard and fast number. It’ll depend how good he is the rest of the time, how replaceable he is, how regular this is, etc.

    2. TheRedCoat*

      I think timing is just as important as frequency. I had a coworker who was only sick on mondays, fridays, and days after vacaction. My personal math is that those days earn x1.5 the amount of goodwill as, say, a random wednesday.

    3. LCL*

      That totally depends on the company. Here, he wouldn’t face any consequences. I’ve read enough posts to this blog to realize that at other places he would be gone already.

    4. Syfygeek*

      I would bet that when review time comes around, besties BF’s bosses remember his sick days.

      The past year at new job I have gotten any bug passing by, had some strange accidents, dealt with my mom passing away, various medical issues that involved time off, and depression. My boss has been great and not said anything beyond get better. But I plan to address it in my review because that’s not how I work, and I want him to know that. And I’m going to hope that my work outshines my sick days.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It drastically depends on the company policies and their leadership, along with the position and how long he’s been there.

      We’ve had chronically ill staff before and in role where there’s plenty of backup, it’s been no big deal for the most part. But if it’s a newer production worker who is on a shift schedule, then it gets dicey and we let people go for being out a lot. Which is unfortunate but with a production line job, that’s a day to day kind of job that someone has to be accountable for. Whereas if we’re processing paperwork up stairs, there’s more built in leeway, unless it puts a stress on our production team because orders aren’t processed on time of course and we need to then rush things so that customers aren’t subjected to longer lead times.

      In my job, my daily tasks can pile up for a couple of days and when I return I can easily get them dealt with. So when I was hit with a week long crippling stomach flu a few weeks after having to take personal time for other things, it dind’t matter much at all.

      Also mildly ill and using sick time for it really does wear on a company/manager more so than if you are prone to flare ups due to a serious illness. Like migraine suffers will have a lot more sympathy and wiggle room than someone who has a sniffle every few weeks and calls in for it.

  139. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

    Well, that didn’t go as planned. I discovered at 3 am that my direct deposit was short $300; I’d asked for an advance on Tuesday, that was supposed to not be repaid until end of July ( I should get three weeks in that check). We agreed. I was clear; there was paperwork that was signed. What does he do? Direct the online bookkeeper to deduct it from this check!!! This is a terrible thing to find out at 3 am. Too much anxiety-adrenaline to get back to sleep.

    I call him this morning (church member on the finance committee, not employee) and he conveniently didn’t hear the rest of what I talked about on Tuesday… because few people listen to the secretary for more than three sentences. My senior pastor always cuts me off very quickly – five seconds into my opening my mouth, he already knows everything, why I’m wrong, and why he’s going to not do the thing I want or need.

    It must be very, very nice to be one of those people others listen to. I wouldn’t know. **** my problem did get resolved with a second advance, but it was done grudgingly, and with suspicion. I feel about two inches tall now.

    1. valentine*

      You’re…searching right?

      Kinda wanna both Lloyd Dobbler and rickroll them with “B[-word] Better Have My Money,” especially:
      ~You should know me well enough
      ~Don’t act like you forgot

      1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

        Yes, I’m looking. I want to work for a bigger employer who adheres to actual standards.

  140. HGTVrn*

    One of our customer service reps is quitting and during their exit interview, reported that my team (analysts) and the other team (educators) never answer their phones. First of all, that isn’t true. Further, anytime A’s or E’s get a CSR call, we just handle it. It’s not that big of a deal.

    CSR staff comes and goes, but their supervisor always poisons the well and, as a result, CSRs have always complained about about A’s and E’s and how we never do our jobs. It’s bizarre.

    Today, we were told the CSR team is 1,000 tasks behind. Guess who the work load is being distributed to?! Between A’s and E’s, this only means we’ll be given 50 tasks each to complete. This will be taken care of in a week or two by all of us with a smile and we will move on with life.

    As the news broke, I couldn’t help but throw up two middle fingers in the air while spinning around slowly in my swivel chair. Ffffff yoooouuu, you ungrateful turds.

  141. Catsaber*

    Could use advice on how much money to ask for…

    I live in Dallas/Fort Worth and I am considering approaching my boss(es) about a new managerial role. My job is part of a team of data warehouse developers, however what I actually do day-to-day is: ETL development, application mgmt, troubleshooting, project mgmt, security, etc. There’s a lot of stuff I’m in charge of, it’s kind of all over the place. We work with a team of data analysts who are responsible for more of the front-end of the analytics application.

    The boss of the data analyst team just quit. She was in charge of the data analyst team, but also several other related teams, and she was overloaded. The data warehouse/analytics group really needs a dedicated, full-time manager to guide the overall development lifecycle. Right now, it’s split amongst our groups and we dont’ have good processes in place. I’m considering pitching the idea that I be promoted into the role of this dedicated manager, because I am basically doing most of the development lifecycle management already, but also I have 10 years working at this place and have good customer relationships for working with customers, and also good technical skills/knowledge to drive technical development. The thing I lack is actual management experience. I have been a “team lead” but never actually had the power to discipline, advocate, do budgets, career development, or anything a manager traditionally does. However my current boss said that I do have the potential and he’d like to see me in that type of role.

    So I currently make 90k. The former manager was making 125k, but had a lot more management experience. However in looking at the salaries for “manager” and “assistant director” at my company, it’s all over the place. Some people manage big teams and only make 60-70k. Some have only two reports and make 140k. So what do I ask for? I’d love 125k but I don’t want to just step into the current role, because 1) it has way too many direct reports 2) it really REALLY needs to be split up. And then there’s the fact that I’d be a brand-new manager, though I’m confident I have all of the skills to do the job, I just don’t have the experience in people managing (I have a lot of project mgmt though).

    Any advice is appreciated!

  142. Coffee Owlccountant*

    Does anyone have any recommendations for screening/testing resources to hire for a job that only requires a high school diploma but needs a high level of numeracy?

    For context, we have a position in our company that works essentially as a bank teller or higher-level cashier. It’s incredibly important that they are capable of working easily with numbers and are able to recognize when, for example, a particular cash deposit does not balance to the associated transaction for that deposit. My company has a history of hiring whoever we can get in the door fast enough, and it’s always ended up causing issues with this position. My current role is not a manager for this position but I am adjacent to the manager and interact with the position daily, including reviewing their work.

    We’re probably going to need to hire again for one of these positions relatively soon (the current occupant is already on a PIP and she’s only been here 6 months), and I’d really like to give some suggestions to the hiring team about screenings or tests that we can do as part of the interview process to make sure this time we get someone with the math skills we need.

    1. Psyche*

      Do a quick skills check. Give them a few practice scenarios and see if they can flag when it doesn’t balance.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’d post the position and mention specifically that you are looking for these skills. Your best candidates will call these skills out in their cover letter or make sure that it is prominent in their resume. Lots of people close out cash drawers in their current positions and would love to leave retail/restaurant work and hop into a non-hospitality position.

  143. Booksalot*

    Does anyone have experience with getting a position that requires security clearance? I keep seeing good tech jobs that require one, but they seem to assume you already have it. Is it just a thing that some jobs are only meant for formerly-active military who have transitioned to industry?

    1. Anon for this*

      I think it all depends on the company and the role. So my defense company requires (almost) everyone have a Secret level DoD clearance, with some requiring Top Secret. When they write the job description, they typically state that you need to have or be able to get the clearance. When we’re reviewing resumes and interviewing, we’ll favor those who already have a clearance but we’ll interview a good candidate without one. And, at least in my group, we’ll definitely take a great candidate without over a meh candidate with.

      If we hire someone without a clearance, we’ll sponsor them for the clearance once they start as an employee. They can usually get an interim clearance within a few weeks. The final clearance can take anywhere from a couple of months to well over a year. In my group, we’re very limited in what we can do with an interim clearance but, again, for the right person we’re willing to wait. However, if the clearance is denied for whatever reason, we’ll need to let them go. (This is explained up front.)

      FWIW, most of our employees are not former military, although some are.

    2. Close Bracket*

      Those jobs aren’t necessarily for former military. There are lots of ways to have an active security clearance, such as being currently employed with an active security clearance or having been employed within the last two years with an active security clearance. Security clearances are expensive to obtain and can take months, and a program might not have funding or be able to wait.

    3. FedSecAnon*

      Yup, in fact I didn’t have one when I first started and my dept sponsored me for one.

      Insider information: Check the job posting. If it says “must be able to obtain and hold a clearance” then they’re not assuming you have one and will be sponsoring you for one. While that is happening (up to 2 years depending on level and investigator load) they’ll either give you work which doesn’t require the security clearance or have any work you do shadowed in real time by a cleared person. If the job ad says “must already possess a clearance” then yeah, best have one prior to applying.

  144. Ada*

    So, how recent is “recent” when it comes to posting a question here after submitting one to Alison? I submitted a question about a month ago and was wondering if it’s still possible that it may be in her queue, or if it’s definitely out of the window of time she’d use it and fair game to post here.

    3. fhqwhgads*

      She always says to email her and ask if you’re in her to be answered queue. She’ll reply to those much faster than it would normally take for a letter to get published so you know if you’re in queue or not, but I think she’s said before if it’s been a couple months it’s probably safe.

  145. Free Meerkats*

    There seems to be a lot of talk about Employee Engagement lately. How do you define it? How do you measure it? What do you do when your employer says they want/need “more engaged employees”?

    I come to work, I do good work, if needed I stay late/come in early, I try to improve processes when I can. Am I “engaged” or am I just a good employee? I’m not 100% satisfied, but I’m not looking to move on; I’m satisfied for now. I want my employer to succeed, I like flush toilets.

    Is having Engaged Employees necessary for an organization? Does it really matter that the CTO is more passionate about DMing her weekly D&D group than work? Or that Chad in HR thinks about his llama grooming competitions when he’s at work while doing his job well?

    I have so many questions…

    1. AndersonDarling*

      This is a fabulous question and many companies really struggle to define engagement. You can have satisfied employees that aren’t engaged, so you can’t simply send out a survey and interpret a good satisfaction score as engagement.
      One good qualifier is employee referrals. Are employees recommending their friends and previous co-workers come an work at your company?
      What does your company do, and are employees doing that? If you are a non-profit, then are your employees volunteering at your events? If you sell a product, are your employees buying it and encouraging others to buy it? This can be discovered in surveys by asking “How often do you suggest others purchase our products?”
      You can also ask employees “Do you feel connected to our mission?” for a non-profit, or “Do you trust our company is going in the best strategic direction?” at for-profit companies.
      These are quantifiable measures, but you can also judge engagement by observing improvement initiatives that come from your staff (not managers). If your staff care about their jobs and want the company to succeed, then they will find ways to make work better/more accurate/ safer/ funner/ simpler.
      And remember, don’t judge engagement by counting the number of people who show up for the company picnic. They come because they know they have to, it isn’t really voluntary.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        And to summarize this…Engagement is an employee’s connection to their work and their company. This compels them to more toward the success of their company.
        An Non-Engaged employee can still do a good job, but they are just there for the paycheck. They could care less if the company succeeds or fails.

    2. Youth*

      I read and wrote SO MANY articles about this in my last job.

      I feel like a lot of engagement is how invested you are in your job outside of it just being a way to make money. For the first two-ish years at my first job, I was super engaged. I went out of my to be the very, very best employee I could be and was quite invested.

      The last three-ish years, I was so burned out that I considered myself a disengaged employee. I still did great work. No one saw a slip in my performance. But on the inside, I was no longer excited, and I resented doing any extras.

      You don’t have to be engaged to be a good employee.

    3. Art3mis*

      At my old company, that was a HRO consultant, they defined it as “Say, Stay, Strive” meaning that employees say good things about the company (as in to their family, friends, coworkers, etc.), want to stay with the company and continue to grow, and strive to do their best and want to see the company be successful.

  146. The RO-Cat*

    Hey, non-profit-experienced people, I am in need of some ideas regarding keeping in touch with donor companies. I run a very small non-profit (as in, just me) and I just started contacting companies (SMEs, talking to owners who know and trust me – for the time being) to donate. They get tax credit (as in, they deduct the amount donated from the total tax amount, so practically they donate state money, but still…); their main motive for donating is knowing and trusting me. There’s few than 10 owners / companies so far and this is the first month of them donating, but I need ideas to get in touch with them regularly in a “Thank you / this is what your money helped do” fashion, maybe with a little networking for them thrown in, if at all possible.

    What are some things you do / know are useful in this type of situation? It’s small now, but I will make it grow so if the ideas are scalable I’m even more grateful. Thank you!

    1. H.C.*

      In addition to a thank you note shortly after donation, I would put them on some sort of donor mailing list where you can send regular updates on the progress on the nonprofit – as well as additional opportunities to contribute (upcoming fundraiser events, volunteer openings, etc.) Given the small audience & size of the nonprofit, this doesn’t have to be a fancy e-newsletter, even something text based with an image or two can work too!

      Of course, also give them an option to opt-out/unsubscribe to that list too.

    2. merp*

      Caveat that I’ve worked in nonprofits but not in development directly, so maybe this would be odd in other scenarios. I agree with the above, and also – you can ask them probably what they might like! If it’s a relatively small group with good relationships, seems like they might appreciate a few options tossed out in an email like HC describes.

    3. The RO-Cat*

      Thank you! I thought about the thank you, but a regular email is feasible, even for me. Indebted to you, guys!

  147. MsChanandlerBong*

    If a job description does not accurately reflect the job, is it an HR issue or a hiring manager issue? My friend works as a medical secretary in a hospital. Her colleague just retired, and they posted her job on the hospital website. All the description says is that the person will be responsible for typing pathology reports and that at least 6 months of medical secretarial training is preferred. In reality, not only do they type pathology reports, but they also have to fill in for the accession tech and other pathology workers at least one shift per week. This entails fixing specimens (e.g. placental tissue, tumor tissue, etc.) in formalin, preparing specimen slides, etc. Now, if I were looking for a job on the website, I’d think this was a 100% clerical position. But it’s not. You have to work with hazardous chemicals and look at gross stuff (I am not squeamish, but I can see some people running the other way when they find out what is involved).

    It seems very weird that they would not put that detail in the job description. What if they bring in someone for an interview and then that person isn’t interested in working with specimens? Seems inefficient and time-consuming. But is it a case of HR insisting on a generic description, or is it lack of communication by the department head?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It’s the Recruiting Dept (HR). More than likely, the hiring manager contacted the Recruiting dept and said that they need to post a position for a Medical Secretary. The Recruiter took their standard Medical Secretary listing and posted it. The Hiring Manager probably never even looked at it.

  148. Carrie Fisher's Middle Finger*

    I’m (finally!) giving notice on Wednesday, which I’m super looking forward to because this department is an entire mess … but also for some reason I feel like I’m going to have a panic attack about it whenever I think through what that’s going to look like.

    I really have nothing kind to say about my time here, so my resignation letter is brief and unspecific. I don’t want to talk about where I’m going, what my plans are, any of that — and I know they’re going to ask me to either stay on longer (nope!) or work on an hourly basis to finish up a major task that will definitely not get finished within my notice period (extra nope! – that semesterly task and the ensuing drama/teeth-gnashing/insinuation that I’m an incompetent and foolish child because I can’t possibly let everyone have their way at the same time that it brings is one of the main reasons I’m quitting) and I’m not interested in that conversation literally at all. The pressure will be laid on, though.

    Basically, I know it won’t happen like this, but in my wildest dreams I plunk this very brief letter down on my boss’s desk, salute, and walk out.

    Gah.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Hooray, freedom!!

      Also, your resignation letter should be super brief. As in,

      “I am resigning from [POSITION]. My final day will be [DATE].

      Thank you.

      Carrie Fisher’s Middle Finger”

      …okay, maybe not the middle finger part, even though that sounds on point.

      1. Carrie Fisher’s Middle Finger*

        Oh, it definitely says exactly that.

        … I may or may not have had it saved on a flash drive on my keys for the last three weeks.

  149. Need Advice*

    I am in a weird place in life. I am 24, working as an HR assistant, and have decided I am going back to school to become a paralegal. I know it makes sense to keep this job during school but I really want to crank out this degree and be a full time student. Would it look insanely horrible to potential employers that while I went back to school I took a different job , say, as a cashier for a grocery store?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I don’t think so. I did something really similar when I first went back to school. About half-way through my degree, I took a full time job and went part time with school because I switched from a community college to a four year university and tuition was more expensive. But yes, in the beginning I wanted to get my gen-eds done as quickly as possible so I went to a part time job. I’ve had a couple people ask but they seemed to take my answer of “I went back to school” without any comment or irritation about it. A lot of people know that it’s hard to balance a traditional full time job with school.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sadly, I would discourage quitting for full time status and taking a part time retail job.

      You have the HR background so that’s a huge plus and will be beneficial. However the longer you’re away from the office setting and widening that gap, with just minimal work, hiring managers are going to go with the people who have a consistent work history in at least a somewhat similar role in terms of environment.

      I say this cautiously because the friend I had that went to get her paralegal degree never ever got called in for a job interview and when she tries for openings, given her only recent experience is retail, she doesn’t hear anything back or is told that there’s too many others in the running with better experience to draw from.

      1. Auntie Social*

        Don’t quit! You can ask if you can go to 30 hours or something, and explain why. The world doesn’t revolve around the courthouse. Most litigators don’t want an out-of-the-box, new-car-smell paralegal. Law firms still have to train the paralegals. Really, the schools vary a lot but we assume that you can do nothing useful. One paralegal came to intern with us for a summer–the school admin went to law school with my boss, so he said okay. She flounced in and said ” Are you my secretary? Where’s my office?” We explained that she doesn’t get a secretary, and she got a cubby like most staff. Then she asked ” Well, don’t YOU have an office?”. I suggested she meet with the name partner first. He threw her out after 20 minutes. She thought little fairies did all the work, and she got to go to court. Every hearing. Doesn’t work that way.

        1. Paralegal Part Deux*

          A coworker swears that Erin Brockovich ruined her idea of what a paralegal does. I’ve been doing this for 12 years and have yet to go to a single hearing.

      2. Paralegal Part Deux*

        YMMV, but it’s always been my experience that experience as a paralegal is desired more than a degree. Some places want both but most places want people they don’t have to train.

    3. Pippa*

      Keep the HR assistant position. HR work is an excellent complement for paralegal studies.

  150. Anon Librarian*

    When you apply for a job and they send you a rejection letter, then add your email address to their customer mailing list and spam you with ads for their services. I’m talking about a small local company. A firm with about fifteen employees, and their work involves being aware of norms and trends and what’s going on around town. Is this normal now? Aggressively advertising your products to candidates you rejected?

    1. New Normal*

      I’d be rather suspect about their judgment of norms and trends or at least their ability to separate good ones from bad. And I certainly hope it’s not a normal as it would put me off their product quite a bit.

      1. Anon Librarian*

        Yeah. It’s in my “Bullets Dodged / Interesting Specimens” collection. I finally unsubscribed.

  151. New Normal*

    Just a rant that I need to get out there – if I get ONE MORE CALL that’s either trying to sell us something, starts with an automated “do not hang up the phone,” or a dead line that’s obviously a robo-caller seeing if this #is live, I’m going to chuck this phone out the window. We’re on the do-not-call list and we have caller ID but in my line we do get a lot of legitimate calls from local numbers (which these places always spoof) so I can’t just not answer or take the phone off the hook.

    All these phone calls are AWFUL for my ADHD beyond just being generally super-annoying.

    That’s it. Just needed to yell about it for a bit.

    1. Rebecca*

      I still have a landline phone at home, and what a waste of money it is. Voice mails that start out this way, and every day, at least 10 spam calls and criminals trying to separate me from my money. Here at work somehow I seem to get more junk email lately, I block, mark as junk, whatever, and our IT people are supposed to keep these things at bay but geez – I’m over it too!

      1. ..Kat..*

        A landline is a good backup if something takes out cell service – such as a hurricane.

    2. Carrie Fisher's Middle Finger*

      I had some kind of robocall come to my office from the Sheriff’s department (presumably to do fundraising? I didn’t listen beyond when I identified it as a robocall, I don’t know) that started as someone acting like they couldn’t hear me at all, and then said “you’re harder to reach than a rock on Mars!” I was offended twice in the space of thirty seconds when I realized.

      Which is to say … same, friend.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      I just got my first one that starts “don’t hang up.” Listen buddy, nothing is going to make me hang up faster.

    4. Socratic Method*

      We have started to combine the scam phone calls in the most hilarious ways possible, e.g. our air ducts are about to be indicted unless they lower their VisaDiscoverMastercard rates immediately. Sigh; it’s a complete plague that needs to be stopped. I think I got 6 calls yesterday claiming to be from “Department of Social Security Administration” in a robotic voice. Just know you are not alone!

  152. Temp No More*

    I posted a few months back. I was a temp worker inquiring about when to ask for the possibility of my job becoming permanent or how long my assignment would last. I am please to announce that about a month and a half ago, I interviewed for a position in my department that opened up. The other day I got the word I got the position!

    I am at nearly two years unsteady work after leaving a toxic job that nearly killed me. I am in shock but feel very relieved. It’s better money than I have ever made and my colleagues are wonderful. I have to keep the word at the office quiet for now, because my boss is going to announce it when I randomly show up on at the staff meeting next week. But YAY!!! :)

    1. Need Advice*

      Congratulations! When I was a temp I always waited for that opportunity and it didn’t pan out for me so it’s good to hear that it does happen!

  153. Justin*

    Update on the Boor:

    (Background: My colleague, also an employee trainer like me, makes tasteless jokes. I’ve told the directors, they’ve spoken to him before, he still does it. He doesn’t know I’ve been the one telling the directors.)

    So he made another “joke” about marginalized groups. In this case it was a comment apropos of nothing about having a “crazy ex-girlfriend,” and it sure wasn’t a reference to the show, in addition to his usual “jokes” about how much money his wife and daughters cost him.

    I got mad, because

    1. That’s dumb and offensive, generally
    2. This is a course I designed, so it reflects poorly on me professionally
    3. It reflects poorly upon our entire team of consultants
    4. I’ve dealt with mental health issues and he just keeps joking about them.

    So I wrote an overlong email to the directors, who are both female, and superiors to his male boss.

    They responded they were taking this very seriously, and though they couldn’t tell me what they did, it seems he’s been castigated in some fashion. They then asked for a meeting with me and asked (but didn’t demand, they said it was up to me if I were comfortable) if i wanted to, with their presence and support, tell him directly why these things were an issue, both as a training matter and a personal matter. They said it’s fine if I don’t. (They’ve already addressed it with him from the training angle, but they were speaking secondhand.)

    I figure I’ll do it. My only real concern is that, because I can be a relatively humorless nerd (or seem like one) that he’d try to turn team members against me socially, but the directors said if I notice any hint of that they will actively stamp out any social retaliation. And as upsetting as the comments can be, I don’t particularly want him to lose his job, even if only for the sake of those women he whines about costing him money, who are all very nice (they’ve been at the office before).

    So I guess I’m going to tell him directly, from two angles. The jokes about women from a purely professional angle about how it’s bad for training (just because I am not a woman), and the mental health stuff more personally (though I don’t plan to go into my whole history since I don’t really want him knowing that about me, though maybe I should be honest if I am going to be protected; he has less power than I do at this job, and if I can’t fight the stigma in this way, when can I?).

    I don’t think a 40something year old man is going to grow up. But I think he might SHUT up. And that’s all I want. It was nice to hear that my contention has been supported, and I feel the confidence to be direct. I guess I can report back after the meeting next week, and again later to see if there have been any changes in both his behavior and with the rest of the team.

    2. ..Kat..*

      I recommend not giving an a$$ho1e any information about your mental health.

      Good for you for being willing to confront him.

  154. Elspeth Mcgillicuddy*

    So so so boring here this week. I want to climb the walls. Literally- most of our walls are craggy blasted rock with lots of handholds. I won’t, since it would be stupid and dangerous. But I want to.

    Anything you’ve always wanted to do at work but have too much sense to actually do?

    1. Saraquill*

      So many gemstones resemble candy. I get the urge to pop them in my mouth.

      Whenever there’s gummies in the office candy jar, I suck on them and pretend they’re jewels.

    3. NeverNicky*

      I work for a charity and we share our building with another company. The CEO of that company is a bit of an obnoxious big head, and takes up the two nearest parking spaces with one vehicle – which rotates between a Ferrari and a baby Bentley. I so want to take a key and scratch the paintwork as I walk by…

    4. Yes Anastasia*

      I work in a library and whenever I’m closing, I want badly to dance through around singing Semisonic’s “Closing Time.” (“You don’t have to go home but you can’t stay here!”)

    5. ginkgo*

      I must not have much sense because I just did do this. But a few months ago I had a petty power struggle with my annoying coworker over bathroom soap – there’s hardly any sink space and we would rest our bar soap on top of a random pipe, where it oozed soap scum and made the paint crack and was generally gross (plus slipped off all the time). I offered to buy a hand pump of liquid soap that would rest much less wetly on the pipe and she kept insisting on bringing random travel soaps from home because God forbid they go to waste. I finally just went ahead and brought the hand pump in anyway and we’ve all been happily using it without issue for a few months now… but the bar soap was still there.

      Anyway she’s not here today and I just threw it out the window. Happy Friday!

      1. Mellow*

        She can – and should – donate travel soaps to homeless shelters for individual use, like for showers. But bar soap in the workplace?
        Just…no.

  155. Saraquill*

    Today in sketchy job offers:

    I got an email from a place I applied to, turning me down for the position. The form email went on to say that if I went through an unpaid 30-60 day training period and passed muster, they’d hire me.

    I deleted the email as it sounded like a ruse for free labor.

    3. irene adler*

      Yeah, but will they pay you after they hire you?
      Doesn’t say, does it?

      Just who do they think would fall for this?

    4. Roja*

      Yikes.

      My husband applied for a PT gig a few weeks back that looked right up his alley, and they emailed him a week later to ask him if it was okay that the job didn’t actually pay anything. Um… no?

      1. irene adler*

        It’s okay that they won’t actually pay anything if it’s okay that hubby doesn’t have to actually DO anything.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They tried…

      Yet I’m angry because the most vulnerable people fall for that nonsense because they’re desperate.

      Next they are going to have you buying “your inventory” of steak knives and scented oils.

  156. Aurora Leigh*

    So I’ve seen a lot of people here reference FMLA as being 12 weeks, but anytime someone mentions it at my company they say 8 weeks FMLA. So which is it? Does it vary by state or company somehow?

    One of my coworkers is pregnant, and our (stressed out) boss was fretting about her taking time off and told her and the rest of the room that 6 weeks is standard for maternity or 8 if a c-section, but you can have up to 8 weeks.

    This doesn’t affect me (yet) but I was curious when or how the 12 weeks people mention comes into play.

    1. Need Advice*

      It varies by state but federal FMLA is up to 12 weeks of unpaid leave. Generally the employer picks the option that favors the employee.

      1. Aurora Leigh*

        Interesting! Ours is all unpaid (we can bank a minimal amount of vacation time for paid leave). We’re in IL which has some good protections, but it’s weird how all the messaging here is that your job is only safe for 8 weeks if the federal minimum is 12.

      2. fposte*

        Not sure what you mean here–if the state allows for more time than that, the employer doesn’t have a choice in what they give but must provide what the state requires. So an employer in California is legally required to give California-duration leave, not just federal FMLA.

    3. CM*

      It’s possible that your workplace is small enough that it isn’t subject to FMLA, which gives you up to 12 weeks, but is subject to a state medical leave law that requires 8 weeks. People often say “FMLA” for both even though the “F” stands for federal.

      1. Aurora Leigh*

        We’re losing people all the time, but I know we’re at more than 50. I should dig out my handbook and check it, but I’m pretty sure it says 8. And I know it’s all unpaid (except for PTO, and you can bank a little unused time at the end of the year for FMLA).

        1. Mama Bear*

          Is your company stating 8 weeks as short term disability? When my daughter was born, we had 6 or 8 weeks depending on type of delivery + the 2 weeks of PTO we needed to kick in before the disability time did. I took 12 weeks, as allowed by FMLA, but that last 4 weeks was unpaid and I had to pay the insurance premium out of pocket for continuity of coverage. I wonder if some companies are confusing FMLA with short term disability.

          Also, FMLA does not need to be taken in one shot. If, for example, my kid had surgery and I needed to be home for 3 weeks, I could do that, and then be out for another few weeks later, up to 12 for the year.

    4. RandomU...*

      I don’t know if this is the case. But a lot of people conflate FMLA and Short Term Disability. They are two separate things that can run concurrantly. So a company may offer STD of 8 weeks with FMLA running at 12 weeks. So the employee would only be paid for 8 but could take 4 unpaid (or use PTO to cover the 4 or a portion, etc).

      I think your coworker needs to get a hold of the leave policy and stop listening to other people. That is what will answer the question.

    5. MeganTea*

      I had two C-sections, and what my job (I’m staff at a public university) did was instructed me take 8 weeks sick and 4 weeks vacation each time in order to get paid for my 12 weeks of FMLA. For a c-section, it was considered 8 weeks of leave for the procedure and recovery, and an additional four weeks of “family bonding time” or something similar sounding. (Had I had a vaginal delivery, in order to get paid, I would have taken 6 weeks sick/6 weeks vacation.)

    6. fposte*

      I can’t think of any way they’re right as stated. California, if you’re there, has other leaves that might be confused with FMLA; if the baby’s father works for the same company, the two parents split the FMLA between them rather than getting 12 weeks each. (And of course you sometimes have somebody who’s used up some of their FMLA for that year already, but that doesn’t sound like the case.)

      But FMLA provides for 12 weeks, and it sounds like your boss is thinking of what doctors put for childbirth recovery time rather than what FMLA requires. FMLA isn’t just about the medical recovery; it explicitly includes time for baby bonding.

      1. Aurora Leigh*

        Oh, I bet that is it! Our boss has 2 kids of high school age and she mentioned many times how eager she was to come back from maternity leave with them. So she is probably assuming my coworker would feel the same.

  157. Lovecraft Beauty*

    I’m going to lose my mind.

    1. Transitioning out of current job is super-stressful because I want it to be done well, but how do you document a literal decade of institutional knowledge and a lot of technical knowledge that I don’t know I know, so to speak?
    2. Finding housing in new-job-city is super-stressful and I’m really anxious about it (and said anxiety is making transitional stuff harder to concentrate on).
    3. I wish I had told new job I needed a start date at least 3 weeks later, but I don’t think I can ask to change it now that I’ve committed.

    1. CM*

      #1 Just do the best you can and then walk away! Sounds like you’re putting the pressure on yourself.
      #2 No advice, just wishing you good suck.
      #3 You can always ask. Worst case, they say no. Just say, “I’m finding that my transition, including finding housing in new-job city, is taking me longer than expected. Would it be possible for me to start on X date instead of Y date as originally agreed? If that’s not possible, I am still available to start on Y date.”

      1. CM*

        I meant good luck! Or I guess if the housing search has to suck, I might as well wish you good suck.

      2. Lovecraft Beauty*

        In the offer process, I did ask about a later start date, and they sounded super unenthusiastic. So. At least the stressful start date means that insurance coverage will be totally seamless, and I won’t miss any paychecks.

    2. WellRed*

      Just do the best you can with the transitional stuff. People leave jobs/companies. The company will go on without you. No need to replicate yourself in paper form. Even if the company collapsed in your wake, that’s not on you.

  158. Black Hole Son*

    I have a direct report. He’s not a bad guy, but he can be a “bro.” Laid back, calls everyone buddy, doesn’t always listen (though he does try to), doesn’t like to ask for help, sometimes fixes things on his own when he shouldn’t, sometimes more blunt (or less tactful) than he should be. His work is average. Some things he does well, others not so much.

    The learning curve at my company can be difficult. He’s been here over 6 months and there are times when I think he just won’t get it. I’ll discuss areas of improvement or educate him on a procedure, provide course correction or clarification, he’ll say the right things, but then will miss the mark. I’m trying to figure out a way to keep tabs on him without micromanaging him, because when he’s nervous he has less attention to detail and makes more mistakes. I want him to get better, but I’m also not really sure he’s capable of it.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Have you set clear goals and metrics for your report? That may help him see where he is doing well and where he needs to improve, plus it gives you both clear benchmarks to track his work.

      Also, are there any patterns of what he does well and WHEN he does well? You already have one, that he does poorer work when nervous. Patterns tend to be more useful areas for coaching and is much less likely to be experienced as micromanaging. Compare when he does well versus when he doesn’t in discussions with him. Avoid comparing him to colleagues or yourself (I learned that from amazing/awesome/super managers and mentors I’ve had the good luck to have).

  159. Analytical Tree Hugger*

    Question about references early in the job application.

    I’m applying to jobs and some of them ask for references right off the bat. As a rule, I don’t give out my references until after interviewing, to protect my references (especially as some of these are consulting firms who may be trying to build their client base). Sometimes, I’m getting insistence that I have to share my references before even being considered to be interviewed.

    1) Why do you think a company would do this?
    2) How can I politely push back on this without hurting my chances of an interview?
    3) How out of whack am I being in thinking I need to protect my references?

    1. Glomarization, Esq.*

      I think companies do this because they think it will save them a step in the process. I’ve pushed back by putting in the “name” Not Applicable whose phone number is xxx-xxx-xxxx (literally x’s), or by saying the reference is “HR” and giving the general phone number for the HR department.

  160. Need Some Perspective!*

    This is late in the day so I’m not sure if anyone will see… but I could use some outside perspective on my position at work!

    I’m an EA to the President at a mid-sized company. I am the only EA at our company and overall, I like my boss and enjoy my job. I’m paid very well and have a pretty high level of autonomy which is nice! My boss seems to trust me and has given me some pretty large projects to manage. She treats me almost like a peer in that she asks for my feedback and input pretty often. However, I’m running into some recurring issues that are really starting to bug me. I don’t know if I am overreacting or if I should talk to my boss.

    Situation 1 – Our HR Director went on vacation during the same week annual raise letters were issued to staff. Since she was gone, I was in charge of printing and distributing the letters. When I received the letters, our Finance Director realized the math was wrong so I ended up having to re-do all the letters. This took a significant amount of time and I ended up working late most nights this week to get the letters corrected, re-printed and signed in time.

    Situation 2 – Once again our HR Director went on vacation right in the middle of our insurance renewal. Our insurance company did a poor job of communicating some deadlines to us, and to make a long story short we ended up having to scramble to complete some applications. My boss told me to have our HR Director complete one of the forms related to our benefits. Our HR Director replied to my e-mail that she was going on vacation and would complete it when she was back. Unfortunately that was not an option and I ended up having to complete all the insurance paperwork, despite being out of my depth and having no idea what I was doing. My boss was on vacation as well so she was of little assistance. I was left feeling very stressed and unsure of what to do since I know nothing about insurance or our benefits plans.

    Situation 3 – Our Operations Director is submitting a large furniture order today that will require payment ASAP. The payment check will require two signatures. My boss is on vacation, and the other check signers are board members who I haven’t been able to get in touch with. I am now scrambling to get the check ready and try to get it signed. It’s looking like I will need to drive to opposite ends of the city to get this done in time. I was not aware of the payment being needed until this morning.

    The recurring theme here is that I feel other people are not planning ahead, which in turn is affecting me by causing more work and headaches. I don’t mind if these things happen from time to time and I need to help out, however these situations have all happened within the span of one month. I’m only 2 months into my new position and am already feeling irritated at having to drop what I am doing and my main responsibilities to essentially clean up after others. Am I overreacting? Should I talk to my boss about my concerns? In all honesty, if this becomes the norm, I may not last here much longer.

    Thanks!

    1. Person from the Resume*

      Are this issues your responsibility to resolved? Can you hand it back to the person trying to offload it to you.

      Especially for #2, I think you should have responded to the HR director that the form could not wait for her return so she needed to do it before or on her vacation. Or someone else in HR should do it. It’s not your job and most importantly you were out of your depth which could have caused problems.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      (An aside: Those all sound like good accomplishments/examples of good work, so add these to your list of your accomplishments you’re writing for future job applications)

      That does sound annoying and I agree, their poor planning is creating more work. On the other hand, this may just be the job. I’m not super familiar with EA work, so take this with a grain of salt: I think that an EA’s job *is* to clean up messes caused by executives, directors, etc.

      What may be worth checking with your manager that this clean-up work part of your job. Like cheerfully say, “Hello NewBoss, in the past month, I had to let XYZ slide to handle [situations above]. I wanted to check, did I prioritize correctly?”

      If NewBoss says yes, then you can evaluate whether you’re okay with that being your role and job.

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        Adding to agree with Person from the Resume: Situation #2 does sound like it should have been handled by someone else, because insurance work is crazy complicated.

        Situation #1 and #3 may be in-line with the normal range of an EA’s job; again, I’m guessing.

    3. WellRed*

      Agree with others about the insurance thing. That wasn’t yours to handle, too much at stake and you are not HR director’s boss (are you?). Will the world end if the furniture order waits until Monday to be placed?

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      For #1&2…who is approving vacation time for the HR director during those very important HR times? That is like a tax accountant asking for the first 2 weeks of April off…just shouldn’t happen! The letters thing was a simple mistake so for that it isn’t as big of a deal but the insurance deal is a hard stop. That is a deadline that doesn’t wait for vacation. HR director needs a talking to about their role and responsibilities.
      #3 – ASAP means that the check gets mailed when boss is back to sign it. Don’t run yourself ragged getting this signed

    5. Mama Bear*

      I do think that it would be good to sit down with the boss and clarify what’s yours and what’s not. I’d probably put it in a “so my work is properly prioritized in this new role” vs “this was really stressful and unfair” to start. Not every ball dropped needs to be yours to pick up. Helping the Finance Director? I would have. Furniture? That can wait. In our office, only certain people can sign off on things like that and if they aren’t here, then it just doesn’t get signed. You might also clarify/ask about comp time for tasks that take you significantly past your regular hours.

      If there’s a reoccurring issue with the HR person being out, she should have someone on hand to pick up her work. If she doesn’t have a second, then that’s a problem, especially when it comes to things like insurance. I’m a department of one, but I still had people tasked with individual items while I was out, just in case. Here we are supposed to have all that info in our out of office messages. In the future I would push back and say that this is really something that someone with HR knowledge needs to handle and it is due on x day. Who in the office is responsible in her absence?

      And definitely write this down for your own review.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This is pretty standard stuff to fall on an EA’s head in the event that the Boss[es] are away however they are absolutely doing this backwards and not planning, given the fact the HR director can’t be bothered to look at this sh*t before they take vacation. That’s unacceptable behavior and something that would get someone canned in most situations I’ve been in.

      Why is there a check involved and why don’t you have access to a company credit card for emergencies?! That’s setting themselves up for trouble with their internal controls putting them in such a sticky situation when the limited check signers are available.

      1. Need Some Perspective!*

        Thanks for your input. In all fairness I don’t think our HR Director was aware she would need to help with the application. None of us were aware until 2 days before the deadline when we were given new paperwork to fill out. However, I sent her the form at 1PM on her last day in the office letting her know I needed the info ASAP (per my boss’s instructions). She replied at 8PM that night that she would take care of it when she got back, which wasn’t helpful.

        The check situation is what bugs me the most. It was a large check (five figures), and our credit card doesn’t have a high enough limit. I did spend the better part of two hours running around town to get signatures, and come to find out the person who requested it left for the day and is going to give it to the vendor on Monday. >:( To me it feels like this person had very little consideration for my time which really rubs me the wrong way.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          I wouldn’t give the HR director any leeway. I deal with insurance renewals. They renew the same time eveyr year and the deadline is the same. She should be well aware.

          Also in general, when that happens, it’s the few times you should make yourself available during vacation, since it’s a vital piece of a much larger thing that she’s ultimately responsible for! She also knows darn well insurance deadlines are firm and they’ll just cancel you, they have no problem doing that!

          Argh, yeah I bet that they didn’t realize how much leg work the check was going to take. A lot of people are awful about knowing what goes into payments, they just think checks fall off frigging trees presigned and ready to go or something. Ick.

      2. Retired Accountant*

        Using a credit card to circumvent check signing procedures is also setting themselves up for problems with internal controls.

  161. Amili*

    Am just super excited and had to share – I managed to snag a fantastic job back in my home state, and have a very good shot at moving quickly through the ranks if I work as well as I interviewed!

    Thank you, Alison – I definitely couldn’t have been as prepared and coherent without you!

  162. EV*

    Hey guys I hope I could get a little guidance here.
    I’m an admin for a family foundation and I’ve been in my job for two months. Since day 1 I have been doing personal tasks for the founder. It began with dropping of foundation related items to her house but it quickly escalated into me planning her daughter’s overseas birthday party and arranging tons of personal travel. I split this task with the other founder’s executive assistant, but now she is quitting. I know for a fact that I will now be saddled with 100% of the travel things with them gone. I think it’s inappropriate given that I’m paid using the foundation’s money to do these personal tasks. This is my first job out of college and I wanted to try to stay here for at least 5 years as there are tons of growth opportunities, but the EA warned me before she left that the founders honestly have no idea what the difference between an admin, EA or personal assistant is and that was a huge reason she was leaving because she arranged all of their personal travel on top of EA responsibilities. I can’t leave and I let my concerns be known to the executive director (we’re the only two employees), but I’m still concerned about what my job will be going forward. Any advice? I’m monitoring my “personal task” hours but I’m still worried it’s going to expand.

    1. WellRed*

      I don’t think it’s *totally* inappropriate they have you doing these tasks, but I also think it’s unlikely there’s tons for growth opportunities for you once you get slotted into this role.

      1. redacted for this*

        It is inappropriate. There are tax implications involved in a foundation that make it different from working for, say, a private family office, where this would be fine. It’s so common to blur these lines that I’m sure the family doesn’t even realize it’s a problem, but it’s arguably self-dealing to use foundation funds to pay a personal assistant, unless responsibilities related to the foundation’s mission are a part of the assistant’s job (which is very normal). And even then, the foundation should only pay the PA for those responsibilities related to the foundation’s mission.

        EV, sorry to say that in practical terms, you may not have much recourse here. Your best option is probably to keep the ED in the loop about your workload and how much of your time is being used for non-job-related duties. It’s the ED’s job to advocate for you and maybe have some delicate conversations, but ultimately it’s down to the founders’ receptiveness. If they don’t want to hear it or don’t care, then your best bet is to hang in there until you’re in a place where you can leave.

    2. BRR*

      The only thing I can think of is maybe they shouldn’t be paying you with foundation money because the foundation is tax exempt and the IRS might not like it because it’s sort of a tax dodging situation. I would look into that and if it’s true you could use the “I wouldn’t want us to get in trouble” language Alison recommends for when an employer is doing something illegal.

  163. The Most Prolific Author Ever*

    BACKGROUND: CurrentJob allowed me to move and work out-of-state about 18 months ago, despite the organization not having any work done in this state (i.e. registered as business, deal with the payroll, taxes, etc.). I realize that’s A Big Deal and it’s a lot of work for the organization. If relevant, I’m the second staff member to do this, so now the organization is registered in three states just to allow remote work. This is all in the U.S., if that makes a difference.

    DILEMMA: I want to move on from CurrentJob. I’m burned out and my moving away was partly an attempt to mitigate that (personal growth as a substitute for professional growth). AwesomeSauceManager is also trying to rework my position to improve my professional satisfaction, but I think it’s too late. We’ve talked about the issues a bit, but I haven’t explicitly said, “I’m burned out and need to move on” because…I need income.

    QUESTIONS: How burned will my bridges be in the (unlikely) situation I’m hired in the next 3-6 months? What can I do to prevent burning a bridge?

    1. The Ginger Ginger*

      I think 18 months is plenty of time to have stuck with this in your new location. As long as you give the appropriate notice and behave professionally through your notice period (which, of course you will) you won’t be burning a bridge. If the bridge gets burned it’ll be because your employer is unreasonable (and they’ll be the one striking the match). And since it sound like your employer is fairly reasonable, I think you’re fine.

      1. The Most Prolific Author Ever*

        Thank you for the perspective! This is a reasonable and well-run organization with good people, so I’m a bit sad to leave.

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with GiGi–this isn’t a situation where somebody stuck their neck out to do you a favor and you bopped them on the nose. They made arrangements for remote work, you’ve been doing it for over a year, and now you’re moving on. That’s fine.

      1. The Most Prolific Author Ever*

        Thank you!

        I really like your imagery and I would be tempted to (very gently) bop an animal’s nose (which is why I’m sticking to houseplants).

        1. fposte*

          See, to me that’s a boop. A boop is almost always acceptable. A bop is more bunny foo-foo territory.

    3. Mama Bear*

      I agree. Eighteen months is long enough to know if it’s workable/not and plenty of time to not feel guilty about leaving this arrangement. It suited you then. It doesn’t suit you now, and I suspect that your boss would not be at all surprised because of the conversations you have already had. Give yourself permission to job hunt guilt-free.

    4. ..Kat..*

      One way to leave them with a good impression when you go is to do a good handoff of your duties. Anything you can start documenting now?

  164. Anony Mouse*

    Anon for reasons.

    Spouse received a job offer from the government recently, for a Spout Manager role for 6k above current salary. But, spouse saw that market rate is 10k above current salary. Also confusing is that the offer was for a Spout Chemist role (possibly because spouse doesn’t have a Ph.D, only a masters–and only Ph.D’s can hold a Spout Manager role).

    If spouse stays in current job, there might be a title promotion in November (but the office is low on funds). Spouse says the current job boss will feel betrayed (but has been there 3 years, which is when most people begin job searching, right)?

    So spouse requested more information about new job and has a phone call scheduled with the gov HR to sort this out. Any similar experiences? Thoughts?

    A) Take the job as-is
    B) Reject job as-is and keep lower salary with no guarantee of November title/salary promotion, which will still be 1k less than govt job offer
    C) ??

    1. Academic Library Disgruntled Employee*

      It would depend on what comes of the phone conversation. If it turns out that there’s room for growth, promotion, or salary increases, then it’s worth making the leap.

      If the salary should really be $10k, asking for $12k based on comparable jobs and experience isn’t out of bounds, and then settling for $9-10k will be a win-win.

      I have twice stayed in jobs in the hopes of getting higher salaries, and it was a mistake both times. If you don’t feel confident of being valued after 3 years, you will feel even less valued after 5 or 8 years. You’ll become the bird in the hand, and others will get the money that should have gone to your pay raise in order to entice them to take whatever other jobs come along in the org.

    2. Hope*

      It’s worth keeping in mind that a lot of government jobs pay below the market rate. In exchange, you generally have better job security and sometimes more stable benefits. And/or it’s possible that because your spouse doesn’t have ph.d needed to qualify for the manager role, they can’t offer more.

      Current job bosses will almost always feel betrayed. That’s just how it is, and is not something your spouse should factor into whether or not to change jobs.

    3. Rusty Shackelford*

      Spouse says the current job boss will feel betrayed

      Boss’s emotional issues are never a good reason to stay in a job.

      1. ..Kat..*

        Ask your spouse if they feel betrayed by current boss for not paying market rate now.

    4. Not All*

      Federal government jobs pretty much always pay below private for any technical series. The flip side is the employer match on retirement, the benefits, security, etc. I’m @15 years out from retirement and perhaps the single biggest factor for me is that my health insurance plan will continue into retirement at the same cost as if I was an employee. That is HUGE.

      Also, don’t forget to calculate the step increases…those are essentially automatic. If you haven’t already, pull up the OPM pay tables for the locality and take a look at the step increases and the information on how long between each one. Especially at higher grades, your step increases may make up that difference within just a couple years.

  165. Rhymetime*

    I could use some moral support going through a tough time. I’ve been working with nonprofits for decades and have consistently been happy and successful, with excellent performance reviews and positive relationships with my managers and peers.

    Now, I’m having trouble at my current employer of just over a year. Our organization’s management has been in transition for some time, with my own manager overextended and interim my entire time there, My performance review was mediocre. In conversations with my colleague who has a comparable position, we have agreed that the structure of our organization is problematic and leads to difficulties performing our jobs. It’s hard to stay motivated. While my externally facing work is still fine, internally I’ve been making mistakes that my colleague in a comparable position has found, and they have rightfully shared their frustration about how that affects them yesterday, and I ended up crying in that conversation, because they were right and I’m embarrassed by my poor performance.

    I was diagnosed with depression last year. I’m on medication and seeing a therapist. I’m lucky to work somewhere where I’ve been able to confidentially share about that with critical staff, including HR. I’m doing my best to look at the circumstances of my job on their own, rather than through the lens of my condition.

    If I were younger, I’d be looking for another job but in my early 60s I’m finally earning a high salary that I’m unlikely to match anywhere else, and I’m feeling squeezed to sock as much away as much as I can because I don’t have much saved for retirement. I recognize that the lack of structure of my organization is part of the problem but I can’t do much about that part for now, and can only deal with the parts I can control until leadership is in place for my team when I’m just not doing my best work. It’s likely to be another six months before I have a full-time manager.

    I initially figured that a lot of my difficulty was just being in a new job. Now I’m thinking I may just not get to a place where I’m competent in this position. I feel trapped, and I’m dreading going to work much of the time. Fortunately I have the option to work from home on occasion which I’m doing to take care of myself today while all this is particularly hard. I’m especially glad for the AAM community right now.

    1. WKRP*

      I’ve been in a similar emotional state, an uncomfortable hamster wheel of trying to do better, but being too stressed to do my best. Self care is very important. Time away is very important. You need to give yourself perspective because you’re in the thick of it, which can be a very difficult place to sort out what you want to do.

      What I’m hearing are all the things you’re unable to control and all the reasons why you’re not doing well. Neither of these will help you improve — your skill or your situation. But don’t get me wrong. I believe that these are important things to acknowledge and I would even argue that it’s valuable that you throw yourself a mini-pity party to get your emotions out from under the surface. Because after a good private cry or rant, those feelings are now out in the ether rather than trapped in your brain and you can take a clearer look at yourself. You need to acknowledge that you’re a capable human being. You wouldn’t have a decades-long, successful career if you weren’t. So take stock of yourself. Remind yourself what you do well and how you can use that to support the things that might be more difficult for you.

      1. Rhymetime*

        This perspective is helpful. The hamster wheel metaphor is spot on, and it would do me good to focus on my self-care and broaden my view beyond the tunnel vision of seeing everything as terrible. I think what really got to me was my colleague’s comments framed as my being unfair to them, an important button that got pushed for me. I had to acknowledge that good intentions didn’t minimize the impact. Although we talked it out and they then understood that it wasn’t deliberate, with my lack of confidence in my abilities right now, that landed hard.

        1. WKRP*

          That’s totally understandable. You’re treading water right now and someone pulled the rope away. They might not have meant to, they may have needed it for themselves — but it doesn’t make it any less painful. It can be really difficult to be a supportive and productive colleague when you’re feeling anything but. But, that doesn’t mean your intentions weren’t good and I would argue you should give yourself a good, solid pat on the back for resolving the issue and making sure your colleague was aware that it wasn’t intentional. But, it does mean is that your difficulties have been noticed and that can add to the guilt or shame or embarrassment or stress or anxiety (or all of the above!) that you feel. But, know this: you shouldn’t feel guilty or ashamed for making a mistake. People do it every day. Treat it like a wake up call. You might want to hit the snooze button, but it’s important to get up and try to make a go of it.

          You’re in a good spot. It’s the weekend. Take the days to take care of yourself. Do the laundry, practice yoga, take a walk. A lot of junk can accumulate both physically and mentally when you’re stressed out. Clean your home, your mind, and your spirit. Give your brain space to breathe. And then when you take a minute to sit down and consider your next steps, you’ll be doing it in an uncluttered space and brain.

          Hope this helps. And good for you for acknowledging the issue and wanting to fix it!

          1. Rhymetime*

            Thank you, I can’t tell you how truly helpful your comments have been. The weight has already gotten lighter, and I know I’ll be in a better place for problem-solving when I return to the office next week. I will begin the processes of putting in place better tracking systems for myself as well as rebuilding trust with my colleague. This weekend, I’m going to spend a bunch of time outdoors, which is always grounding.

            Your perspective means the world to me. I’m sending you an internet hug!

  166. Academic Library Disgruntled Employee*

    I applied for an internal opening and heard nothing. Then we were sent an announcement for a candidate interview/presentation — just one. Usually they interview two or three people. I am expected to attend these things, but in this case I really did NOT want to!

    Then, while I was mulling over the pros and cons of attending, the university announced that some positions will be eliminated/not filled. The next day we all received an email that the candidate interview had been cancelled.

    The next day I received an automated HR email saying the position would not be filled.

    So I thought, well that’s that.

    Feeling the need to escape a sinking ship, I went to the ALA Joblist, and *poof* the job had been relisted!

    Meanwhile, my boss continues to play head games and the area where I work is “under consideration” for reorganization. On the one hand, I want to reapply for that relisted job, because if my job is going away I want to find a way to stay here (and employed) on my own terms.

    On the other hand, is it really pathetic to apply for the same internal job twice?

    And considering everything else, should I start shotgunning applications to every opening everywhere just to escape?

    1. WellRed*

      It may have been reposted automatically. Even if it’s not a mistake, I wouldn’t reapply. I’d reach out to the hiring manager or whoever and express your interest.

    2. Anono-me*

      You sound like you’re carrying an incredible amount of stress. I hope you’re able to be kind to yourself a little bit this weekend.

      I would also check with HR about the position. Bureaucracies sometimes are weird and don’t follow normal business practices. This may be the position you applied for. Or it may be a second identical position in the same Department, that has to be posted separately due to ‘Rules’.

      I do think you should be aggressive about applying for anything within the organization where you could contribute successfully.

      Good luck.

  167. Gaia*

    So, I’m trying to find out what other companies call my job because I feel like my title makes sense but when I was last job searching the jobs I found with this title (or similar titles) were definitely not the same as my job.

    My title: Data Manager (sometimes Data Manager for Teapots, sometimes People Who Buy Teapots Data Manager, but always “Data Manager)

    My job: I literally manage the data. I am responsible for the quality of all department data in our systems. I do QC checks, work with our salesforce Admin (or other system admin) on system changes that will make the system easier to use (and thus, in theory, improve quality of data). I develop data standards, am expected to give insight on regulations on data privacy and the impact on our data, I look for ways to automate processes around data, I collaborate with my peers in other departments on how to remove, reduce, and prevent silos in our organizational data, and when someone needs to know what our data says, I report on our data.

    The issue is “data manager” most often correlates to “clinical data manager” which I am definitely not. My data is mostly operational (although in past roles it has involved health care but not clinical or scientific research data). I’m never placed in IT departments – my role is always about viewing the data from the perspective of the business, although I always work very closely with database administrators to ensure the system needs align with the business needs.

    Is this a role many companies have? If so, any idea what they call it? I love it but I find it really interesting that while my title has been the same or similar each time I’m in this role, I always struggle to find other jobs with this title and people seem to really not understand what I do based on my title.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Your description fits with my concept of a Data Manager. Generally, this role checks the data as it comes in, sets standards for the data, manages projects that include data changes, and is the resource for people who build reports and need access to information. They will also set up the mapping for the data, but it may be that your data is very linear and doesn’t need to be transformed to be used. The role sometimes included database administration, or report building. This is where it can go from IT side to Operational side. Some companies see data as solely an IT thing, and some see it as integrated into everyday operations and it falls under Quality or Performance Improvement. You can usually spot the distinction by the job description. If the emphasis is on working one-on-one with executives, then it prob is an org that has data management in Operations. But if they are offering a 6 month contract, then they are thinking of it as an IT position.

      1. Gaia*

        That is so interesting because I have always worked with rather complex data that definitely required mapping. While I am always consulted (because I know the data like the back of my hand), this was never something I was deeply involved in – I wouldn’t even know where to start. Because of that, I always assumed database admin work was entirely and completely different.

        While my roles require that I understand the technical side of things and be able to translate technical requirements to “the business” and business requirements to the technical teams, I am not expected to be highly technical. Rather, I am expected to understand the business incredibly well, and know how to use the data to achieve operational goals.

        Interesting, thanks for the insight! And I agree entirely on the 6 month contracts. Tons of those out there, none are what I want to do (not for the least of which because 6 months is not much time to get in and get data even in a usable form let alone make an impact!)

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Huh. Based on your original post, I was thinking “Data Manager” makes sense. Based on what you wrote here, I’m leaning more towards “Business Analyst,” as they translate the business users to the developers and communicate the technical limitations/possibilities to the business users.

    2. Camellia*

      I call these ‘analysts’ of some sort – financial analyst, business analyst, data analyst.

      1. Gaia*

        Interesting! I actually think these go hand in hand. I’ve worked as an analyst and I enjoy that work. Those roles have often assumed the data quality was already in place, though, and relied on someone else to assure quality. I just analyzed what was there, I didn’t get into the state of the data. I would love something that is a hybrid of the two!

  168. You can call me flower, if you want to*

    I would love some assistance with how to tackle an issue I keep running into.

    I work for a small company that is owned by a larger parent company in a different field. I work in teapot marketing. We have a contract with the parent company for additional help with teapot painting. The teapot painter questions me all of the time. He tells me that he thinks I’m wrong about the theme for the teapot designs, the colors, the message I’m trying to display and the size of the designs and adds my boss to emails. My boss has my back, and has said that she knows I’m requesting the designs to fit our messaging accurately so she’s not worried, but she doesn’t really have time to deal with this low level issue.

    How can I get him to stop questioning me or telling me I’m wrong all of the time? I work in teapot marketing, I know the message that I’m trying to highlight because I wrote it.

    1. fposte*

      Does it block forward movement when he does this? Or is it something that you can just get past with “It’s all fine with my boss as is–thanks for checking!”

      If it does block things, I’d arrange a meeting/discussion with him about the problem. “Our process is being slowed up by this. I appreciate that you’re wanting to make sure the product is right, but we’re confident with our process on our end, and this extra layer hasn’t caught any errors or changes in eleventy-zoom submissions. We really need our submissions to go through without this pushback. Can we get that to happen?”

    2. Camellia*

      First say, “Tell me more.” Then really listen. Maybe they have some good points, discussion can ensue, and so forth.

      But, if at the end of all that, it still must be done ‘your way’, then you use the magic word, “Nevertheless”.

      “Nevertheless, this is what we have to do.”

      “Nevertheless, this is what is going to happen.”

      “Nevertheless, this is what you need to do.”

      And don’t fall into the trap of expanding and adding explanations and reasons to these statements because that just gives them more to argue with. Just keep with a short “nevertheless” statement, then get up, leave, turn back to your desk, or whatever your next move needs to be, while projecting the calm assurance that of course that is what he is going to do because it has been so decreed.

      1. You can call me flower, if you want to*

        This is really helpful. Thanks! I’m going to try these suggestions.

        1. Close Bracket*

          If at the end of all that, it has to be done your way, don’t engage in discussion. Jump right to the nevertheless part.

  169. Susan*

    I’m in a funny space in my career right now, and definitely trying to decide where to spend emotional energy. I’m just coming out of a time where I was under multiple sources of stress and there’s still more to come.

    I’ve worked at my current company for just over 10 years. I am one of 3 people performing the role I am in right now, and 3 of us is definitely not enough to do all the work that we need to cover. I have asked my boss and there is no plan to hire more people for my role. In addition, the role I am in is at a level where I have to say “no” to people a lot of the time. It’s always going to be part of the job and I get that, it’s just the amount of time I currently spend saying “no” in its many different forms is draining. I’ve moved around within my company before, but right now I haven’t identified another position that I can move into internally.

    With all that said – sounds like a perfect time to start exploring other options. The complication comes in that my father has metastatic cancer. I am hoping he makes it to the end of the year. I am very close to him and know that when I lose him I will be devastated. I don’t know that this is the right time to make a major change – either to spend the emotional capital on the ups and downs of job searching and the transition to a new environment. So I think I’m sticking to my current job. But I really am going to have to figure out good ways to protect and support myself mentally if I stay in this job.

    1. CAA*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your father and you and he have all my best wishes.

      Do you have an EAP at your current job? The kind of situation you’re in is exactly what they’re for. They can help you find someone to talk this over with, and bounce ideas off of in order to make a decision about what to do.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m so sorry to hear about your dad. It’s awful to go through that and I agree that right now may not be the best time to change.

      That personal weight that you’re carrying is also probably really making the emotional drain that work has become ten times worse. You can’t escape the exhaustion like you could when you didn’t have a family crisis going on.

      My dad’s health declined right at the time that my 10 year job was wrapping up in terms of my ability to keep going with it as well. The stress from that personal journey may power you through to get a nicer place to land job wise in the end, that’s what happened to me. I was like “Cut the crap, I need to think of me now because nobody else is going to.” with the mortality issue light shining on life as a whole.

      I hope you have the emotional support in your life and that you seek our your EAP if it’s available and you think that it will help you through this.

    3. Anono-me*

      One factor to consider, is that
      you are currently eligible for FMLA to help your father (if your company is large enough). If you switch to another company you will not be eligible in a timely fashion.

      Please look into support groups for people with loved ones with cancer and check out your organization’s EAP if it is offered.

      Please also take advantage of all the support available for your father on a practical level. Conserve your energy for when it is important for you to be the person doing something.

      Consider reaching out to your to coworkers for a little extra support and patience right now. I know that if co-worker was going through a tough time, I would want to do what I could to make life a little easier at work.

      Wishing you a better day tomorrow.

  170. Going Anon, Need to Vent - TGIF!*

    I know I am fortunate to have a decent job, but I’ve started a job search last month, and am already feeling demoralized and stressed.

    Last week I had an interview that I thought went fine, except for the following question:

    “I ask everyone this: Where do you see yourself in 3 years, 5 years, 10 years, 15 years, AND 20 years?”
    Asked in a completely serious way.

    I stumbled through a vague answer, saying I wanted to be in a positive, collaborative work environment, where I could develop my skills, and have good relationships with my colleagues, but darn if I wasn’t stunned. I mean, 3-5 years, okay, I can picture that. Even 5-10, I can understand. But TWENTY? Gimme a break.

    1. PB*

      Wow, this is a terrible question to ask in an interview. Depending on the age of the candidate, the answer to “where do you see yourself in 20 years” may very well be “retired,” and who’s going to want to say that?

    2. MonteCristo85*

      Not sure how helpful this will be, but my dad was sent up to corporate for an interview there as they were considering moving him up into management. When they asked him this, he told them he would consider himself a complete and utter failure if he still worked for them in 10 years, as he intended to retire early and work for himself. He did not get promoted, lol.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      WTF, that’s such a bad question, just yikes.

      I don’t know many people with a 20 year plan at any stage of life. I would have to tell them that with all the sh*t I’ve seen in life and it’s curveballs, I don’t plan out longer than a couple of years at a time and even that isn’t a given.

      But my old boss had plans to retire and then got punched by early Alzehimer’s so I live for now and will thank the universe if I’m here in 20 years ffs.

    4. Gaia*

      Don’t let bad interviewers get you down. Some people seem unaware that candidates can be a little picky these days and they don’t have to tolerate the things we had to tolerate 10 years ago. This is a bad interviewer. Twenty years from now – I don’t even know what I want to do 5 years from now. The world is changing quickly, if you’d asked me 10 years ago if I’d have taken this turn in my career I wouldn’t have even understood what you were talking about! Twenty years ago I wanted to be a teacher. Now the idea of teaching gives me chills!

  171. Ciela*

    Last week’s open thread I had commented that I tracked down a terminally ill family friend and co-worker’s brother, out of concern for my co-worker being a no call / no show for 4 days, which was highly unusual for him.
    He called one of the bosses and resigned over the weekend, but the bosses decided to keep him on the insurance, no need to burden his family with extra medical bills.
    He did go to stay with his father and passed away in his childhood home early today.
    It’s very sad and very weird right now. There are notes he left, automated spreadsheets he made, etc. all over the place.

    1. fposte*

      Oh, I’m sorry, Ciela. I’m sure it meant a lot to him to know that his workplace cared about him.

    2. The Ginger Ginger*

      I am so sad for your coworker and his family. Good on your employer for being so compassionate.

  172. new kid*

    Started a new director-level position about a month ago where I’m embedded within a project team but report up through my role-based org in another location. My manager is perfectly fine, but because she’s in another state I think she’s slightly over invested in staying on top of my work? Aside from a weekly one on one that includes one of those project status tracking forms, she also has a weekly meeting with one of the product owners here, presumably to discuss how I’m doing on the project.

    It’s a little annoying, especially at my level, but I’ve been of the mind that it’s a relatively minor annoyance that will hopefully sort itself out over time as she gets accustomed to my work. But then one of my coworkers brought it up to me earlier this week (her meeting with the product owner specifically) joking how infantilizing and ridiculous it was. Now I’m worried her management style might be undermining my authority within my project team. Do I need to nip this in the bud?

    1. CAA*

      How formal is their weekly meeting? I ask because I used to do something similar. I had developers who reported to me on agile scrum teams based in other locations. I made a point of chatting with every project manager every week, but especially the one who didn’t have a conference call setup for his team’s daily scrums. It was usually just 10 minutes with the PM to make sure everything was still going o.k, and verify that if I approved someone’s PTO request it wasn’t going to cause a huge problem on a project. This meeting would only focus on one person if there were some active performance problem we were trying to fix or if some new issue or conflict had cropped up that a PM thought I should know about. I also had weekly one-on-ones with each dev.

      I will say that I was the director-level person in this scenario, and the people I was supervising ranged from very junior to very senior, but not mangement. It would have seemed weird if my manager (a VP) had been calling the PMs every week to see if I was doing my job. I would expect her to ask them a general “how’s it going” kind of question when she saw them, or maybe ask for feedback right before my annual review, but it would have been weird to have more oversight than that.

      1. new kid*

        It’s just a 30 minute call (maybe even 15?) earlier in the day before she has mine. They’ve never had someone embedded in a project team before, and the work of this project specifically is very different than the rest of what the organization does, so I sort of chalk it up to her genuinely wanting to understand the work, but it still feels like an overreach.

        I’m leaning towards waiting it out because we seem to be building a decent relationship otherwise, but my coworkers comment has me a little on edge about it. I will definitely admit I’m carrying some baggage from OldJob, but it’s really important to me that I’m seen as a competent thought leader in this role.

        1. CAA*

          If I were you, I might give it a couple more weeks and then say something to your manager about the coworker’s comment. I bet that she doesn’t realize how her behavior appears to the rest of your team, so telling her could help open her eyes.

          You could also think about inviting her to other types of team meetings so that she can get a bigger picture, and ask her to mention to the team that she’s trying to learn more about the overall project since it’s so different than the other things her team works on.

  173. Yes Anastasia*

    Looking for advice/commiseration about toxic work environments that stir up childhood trauma.
    I work in the public sector. My boss thinks I’m a great employee. However, she has always been stingy about giving me the support I need and has little interest in my work or its outcomes, unless it makes her life easier or increases her prestige.
    For the first couple years I functioned in a state of benign neglect, and things were pretty okay. However, boss is a micromanager at heart and has started taking over all the creative control of my job. She is increasingly defensive whenever I try to put my own stamp on a project or exercise autonomy. Attempts to gently advocate for myself are met with passive-aggressive rebuffs. I am cheerfully job-hunting and am doing my best to emotionally check out of this job in the meanwhile.
    However, I have also been looking inward and realizing that this work environment is not great for my mental health. I experienced trauma as a child, and all of the behaviors that I use to placate my boss – concealing negative emotions, telling her what she wants to hear, avoiding conflict – are exactly the childhood behaviors I’ve tried to overcome in adulthood.
    I need this boss as a reference and previous attempts to be straightforward with her have gone nowhere. I do plan on going back to therapy at some point but am wondering what else I can do to maintain my sense of self while I’m still in this job. I worry this will be an ongoing issue for me at work, since modern workplaces can be so disempowering.

    1. Close Bracket*

      The behaviors you described developed strategically to deal with a toxic situation. Congrats on working to recognize that you don’t need to use them to deal with all situations! Give yourself credit for recognizing that you are once again in a toxic situation and dusting those strategies off. To maintain all the progress you’ve made, recognize that your behaviors are just tools for coping with situations. Your behaviors are not you. You can pick them up and put them down like they are spades or hoes. You control your tools, not the other way around.

      1. Yes Anastasia*

        Thanks, this is helpful framing! Maybe I need to find more opportunities to be loud and assertive outside of work.

    2. Academic Library Disgruntled Employee*

      “concealing negative emotions, telling her what she wants to hear, avoiding conflict ”

      Many people have to do this. (Myself, for one) Rather than hope the next boss will be different, going to therapy in order to learn not to be triggered would be better. My boss and her boss absolutely cannot tolerate any negative feedback, and my boss avoids conflict whenever possible (which is how she gets along with her boss, who has anger issues).

      Autonomy is a luxury in a tight job market. They are more concerned about their own jobs than ours.

      1. Yes Anastasia*

        As one librarian to another, you have my sympathies! I’ve been in the field for 6 years and like you, I’ve never had a really good boss.
        That said, I have met library managers who I think would be great bosses, so I know they’re out there! I am geographically mobile and have no dependents, so I am determined to either find a good boss, become the boss, or quit libraries and go work in a coffee shop or something. I realize this flexibility isn’t open to everyone (and may evaporate for me when the next recession hits – which is why I am job-hunting aggressively right now!)

    3. Anathema Device*

      Okay so first off I would recommend looking into some grounding or distraction techniques that you can use when this gets to you. Think about whether there’s anything you can have around you that would be soothing, comforting or distracting.

      These behaviours you’re experiencing will likely trigger you into a state of feeling under threat – try to think of ways to distract or self-soothe when that happens. Maybe look up Pete Walker’s website – it has some really great tips and information about emotional flashbacks and dealing with triggers (terrible layout but it’s worth a read I promise).

      And look for things you CAN control, even if it’s just the colour of your outlook calendar.

      1. Yes Anastasia*

        Thanks, this is helpful! I don’t usually have overt anxiety responses with this boss; it’s more like I check out emotionally. So I think continuing to work on mindfulness will be helpful for me.

  174. Where have all the good ones gone?*

    Going Anon for this…

    We just fired an office manager. Since I came to this office, I’ve now seen four office managers come and go, in a little under seven years. One quit for a pay raise in a different sector, #2 was a garbage fire that got canned after far too long, #3 was absolutely amazing and left to go back to school for another degree, #4 seemed okay though mostly uninterested (and must have done something serious because they got walked out suddenly). In between, we go 3, 4, 5 months without. Really, it’s turning into a revolving door.

    I’m mostly out of the whole thing, since I moved to report to someone else (somewhere between #3 and #4), but it still rankles to see what’s going on – mostly because there was a time I wanted that role for myself, and I never even got an interview. I was crystal clear I wanted it, did whatever I was asked in the name of gaining the appropriate skills, was told there was space for promotion if/when the role was available and I’d learned the skills, and then got ignored every time we rehired. (I’d have thrown my hat in the ring, but for #2 my skills weren’t there, and for #3 TPTB hired before telling #2 they’d been fired!)

    On a less personal note, it annoys me that we’ve now hired three times from outside the company, for a role which requires an understanding of our product, our culture, and fifteen different roles that report to the office manager. Why aren’t we performing any level of succession planning?! Why aren’t we grooming people for future upward movement?! (Not to mention the people retiring soon who are going to walk out with ALL THE KNOWLEDGE.) UGH. People are idiots.

    1. Aurélia*

      Who would be the person to ask why they’re not targeting internal hires?
      Yeah, that would majorly piss me off.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Holy moly. What a nightmare, they probably dont’ want to move you because you’re in a role they think you’re perfect for and oh noes, then they’d have to still hire someone for that role! It’s gross and a stupid reason that sets a lot of people back.

      It sounds like they probably drop people into the position and let them sink or swim.

      It reminds me of the place I left a couple years ago. It took them multiple chances in such the same way. The only reason they stopped the bleeding out was because they finally got to call someone who had the job before and they were willing to come back. Bless their hearts, I hear it’s still a tire fire over there.

      That company is bad and if you have such great ambitions, I would encourage you to find somewhere that is ran properly and will take advantage of the wealth of knowledge and resources at their finger tips instead of trying to keep people in their place and not promoting from within.

      1. Where have all the good ones gone?*

        I managed to leverage a great relationship with a boss to get moved to a new group, so I don’t report to any of the people involved now. I’m still with the company (which is great as a whole, just this one office is nuts). So now I’m all not-my-monkeys about it, but I still get all the emails about who’s out. It is still incredibly frustrating to watch the same issues year over year go unresolved, and think I could have made a go of it – but at least I’m in a great place now! I do kinda want to tell the next one they hire to run for the hills though…

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh this pleases me since it’s not your circus and you’re just still casually observing from a functional department! It’s probably all for the best that you didn’t stay in that department and get the chance to be in the position given it’s turnover and walk-out history.

          I’ve seen those jobs be an issue just because of bad hiring practices and then the ones that are an issue because it’s really just the person who’s in charge of the entire department/company being awful at business/management.

  175. Queenie*

    Well, the interview last friday was a bust :( BUT!!!! I got called for multiple rounds of testing for a job that I DESPERATELY want. Amazing place to work, right in my wheelhouse, and the career path I am trying to join!! Their hiring process is intense (ok weird and I bet Alison would think super ineffective!) but I am doing my dangdest to get that job. Things have further deteriorated at my workplace to the point where one of our upper management staff called another a “buttface” in a meeting and we have a THIRD employee going on stress leave. We only have 12 employees total…. save me.

  176. Aurélia*

    So, I had an opportunity discussion with an office director in February and it went well and he asked me to send him my paperwork. Done. Currentjob has been chugging along since and there have been… developments, one of which is that Currentboss and Newboss have been corresponding frequently. Great from my POV, we’re all a team, there’s really just no where for me to go up at Currentjob and Currentboss is wonderful and supportive. However, Newboss keeps saying that I will be taking over his portfolio after he gets a (pending) promotion. This is not what I want, at all! My mistake was not fleshing-out the specifics beforehand, figuring I could help-out in a specialist role while getting my feet wet in Newoffice and gradually picking up more responsibilities as I get training.
    So. I want to email Director and CC Newboss with an attempt to belatedly outline expectations and get on the same page and relay a few updates. Any tips on how to word this while still presenting myself as fully-qualified and eager to help? “My expectations are X, are we on the same page?” is a bit light, but I don’t want to get too into the weeds either. Also, timeline is becoming more of a factor, end of the fiscal year is 30 September and Currentboss really doesn’t want me getting thrown into a dumpster fire, and while I know they can’t make me start any earlier than I want to start, adding a line like, “And I look forward to joining the team in FY2020 after HR finalizes my offer” isn’t quite what I want to say.
    Appreciate any insight!

    1. animaniactoo*

      “I wanted to clarify the nature of my transition. How much overlap will there be after my transition to NO and before NB’s promotion? I thought there was going to be more of a gradual and hands-on training period for this specific role/area (whatever sounds right), but it sounds like that may not be possible given that my offer will likely not be finalized with HR until end of FY2020. If so, can we talk about what would be the most effective way to train me to be ready to handle NB’s portfolio when the promotion goes through?”

      Work? Tweakable?

  177. Hopeful for that extra 0.25 days of vacation...*

    Is it okay for my organization to pro-rate leave based only on completed months of service? I am leaving my position mid-July, and my current organization will only pro-rate leave that I’m owed up until the end of June. There is nothing in the employee manual or contract that says the pro-rating only applies to completed months. I am in Ontario, Canada in case helpful, but general thoughts around usual employment norms are also welcome!

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So is the issue that they front-load your leave usually. And if you leave mid-year, they pro-rate the leave they pay out? Is that what you mean?

      I don’t know about Canada of course but down here, if we pay out leave, it’s how it’s handled because the front-loading is an extra benefit to the employee so they don’t have to wait. However if they leave mid-year, yeah that benefit would be only paid out for the actual amount owed.

      1. Hopeful for that extra 0.25 days of vacation...*

        Thanks for the reply! Yes I’m happy to only get the amount owed based on actual time worked this year. But the issue is I’m leaving in the middle of July, and they will only give me the amount of vacation I earned up to the end of June. Their reasoning is that I didn’t work for the entire of July, so I don’t get any of the vacation earned for that month. Which seems odd to me. For example, if I earned 12 days of vacation a year, and finished on June 30, I would expect to have earned 6 days of vacation. But as I will finish on July 15, I would expect to have earned 6.5 days. But they will only give me 6, as I didn’t complete the whole month of July.

        1. animaniactoo*

          Yes, it’s fine for them to say that their base increment is a month.

          While the employee handbook doesn’t spell out “completed” explicitly, it apparently ALSO doesn’t explicitly spell out paying out on partially completed months. Therefore, there is an implicit definition that completed months are the standard. Unless they have a habit of handling it differently for other people, and then you’d have an argument of inconsistent handling.

          1. Hopeful for that extra 0.25 days of vacation...*

            Thanks so much! This is really helpful and has calmed my heightened emotions. It’s good to know that this is a normal practice, although I do think it’s rather sneaky (if a person started on the 2nd of a month and finished on the 29th of a later month, they could effectively lose almost two months of their vacation benefits). I think a better practice would be to pro-rate by days, but I am a little biased in this situation!

            Thanks again.

            1. animaniactoo*

              Oh yeah, I’m not saying it’s a great method of handling it, but that is the way some companies handle it.

        2. fposte*

          A cursory look suggests vacation in Ontario is insanely complicated *and* just changed with a new law last year. I’d ask the Ministry of Labour.

          1. Hopeful for that extra 0.25 days of vacation...*

            Haha right? I was trying to look myself and found it insanely complex. The AAM commentariat is much more useful!

            1. fposte*

              I kept finding detailed pages that said at the top that everything on there was now outdated. Thanks, ON.

        3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh yuck, I see what you mean. I agree you should check with your labor department to see what the laws are because they may or may not be compliant.

          It sounds so needless to be that rigid on their end. We always do our best to do it in the interest of the employee to a certain point. In terms of rounding up. If you give us two weeks in July, then it’s only fair to pro-rate to the very time.

          However many HR departments will always look to do it in the favor of the business, even if it saves pennies. It’s unreal and another reason why I have a not so secret loathing for other HR professionals who make us who aren’t here to screw over anyone and still take care of the company in the long run look like picky ogres who will squeeze the pennies out of you and only give you exactly what you’re entitled to and not a inch more.

          1. Hopeful for that extra 0.25 days of vacation...*

            I know, right?! I’ve literally brought over 60 million dollars in new and potential business to the organization in the last year, and they nickle and dime my hours to the very last. It’s just so unnecessary – glad you’re one of the good ones!

            Oh well, leaving soon to pastures green! Happy times!

        4. Errol*

          I actually think they are able to round down but definitely look up your provinces employment policy as if I recall properly it’s detailed in there.

          If you’ve been at your place of work for over a year, in Alberta: if you get 2 weeks vacation you are entitled to 4% of your wages earned in from when the benefit became available, or 6% for 3 weeks.

    2. Not Me*

      That’s pretty standard in the US in my experience. Vacation is earned per pay period, so if you leave on July 6th you only accrue vacation time thru June 30th (the last full pay period). I’m not sure of the legality of that in Ontario, it wouldn’t surprise me though to be a standard procedure.

      1. Hopeful for that extra 0.25 days of vacation...*

        Great, thanks, it’s very useful to have additional experiences on this. I guess my thinking is, even though it’s not a full pay period, you still do get your normal pay for that additional time (say for 6 days), and presumably other contracted benefits (health care, pension etc.) also continue during that additional 6 days, so why should vacation not also accrue as normal? It’s also a benefit and part of the package that I signed my employment contract for. Either way though, I guess it’s not worth pushing back on for such little compensation.

        In a happy update, the HR director has just agreed to update the employee handbook to make it more explicit that vacation is only accrued for complete months, based on my concerns. Small wins!

        1. Not Me*

          You probably have your health care benefits either thru the end of the month your employment is terminated. Health care generally isn’t prorated into days since the premium is monthly. (Again, I’m working on US experience, not Canada).

          I agree though, it should be fully spelled out in the policy so there aren’t any surprises.

        2. Anono-me*

          It’s very nice of you to take that as your win instead of the time that fairness says you should have gotten.

          I’m sure part of your wanting that vacation time was the principal and part of it was because it would have been nice to have the money. However, in my experience, that is usually not the case. Often times people will burn through their advanced vacation time to cope with illness or another emergency, and then have to leave mid year because the situation has gotten worse. Having to reimburse the company for the used, but not yet earned vacation time can be financially difficult, and a miscalculation due to bad information only makes things worse. Especially when the person would have chosen to finish out the month if they had known.)

  178. NearlyPhDone*

    Hi,
    I’m submitting my PhD in the next couple of months! It’s all very exciting and I’m starting to mull over what I’d like to do with the rest of my 20s (being in a lab is not it). Would it be insane to try and look for a 1-2 year contract somewhere in the USA or Australia? I’d love to experience living and working somewhere new. Does anyone on AAM have any suggestions for how I should search for positions? I’m worried that a jump straight out of academia, plus looking abroad is too much for one job search.

    2. NotMyRealName*

      Do you belong to any professional societies? In my discipline, there are lots of post-doc things in academia and industry internationally.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Yay, you’re almost done with graduate school! I don’t think it’s insane to look to move abroad and change industries (i.e. academia to non-academia), as long as you recognize that it will be difficult (out-of-country hires can be more of a challenge, at least in the U.S. as H1B visas seem like they’re getting more limited).

      Are you looking to move away from both lab work and academia? Or would you be open to an industry post-doc? That might be more realistic, depending on your field.

      Definitely seconding the suggestion to talk with your adviser and other folks in your department to network. Do you have an alumni network you could tap to see if others have done something similar?

    4. Go Big or Go Home*

      I don’t have specific advice, but some encouragement, “If not now, when?”

      If you get a job in your home town in your home country and get comfortable and settled, with a lease and a cat or a dog that you can’t take with you, or an SO or a kid (they are technically transportable, but not as easily as solo!) will you ever do the go-abroad thing?

      That sounds incredible and adventurous!

    5. Gumby*

      You absolutely, 100% couldn’t do 2 years in a lab abroad? Because 2 years is the length of many post-docs. That way you are at least splitting the 2 major life changes.

      Not that you have to, I’m sure you could handle it otherwise, but it might be an easier route.

  179. Close Bracket*

    Little work situation going–

    New person, call them Avery, from business unit A gets placed on program. Sends email to existing program person, call them Madison, at business unit B introducing themself and basically announcing that they will be joining the program, sitting over at B, and asking Madison how to get access to the building and the lab (secure areas). Madison was like, uh, what? Madison’s program lead at B was pretty upset. Avery evidently felt that since everybody’s reporting boss was on board, this was the correct route to take. I’m shaking my head bc I used to think this way, too.

    Avery has really been poorly served, but I’m also just like, hm, you are not new either to the workforce or to the company, how do you not know how to work within a program at a matrixed organization? Avery’s program lead should have been opening program doors for them, working through the other program leads to get the introductions made, and making arrangements for access (and a desk and phone, which I don’t think Avery has been assigned yet).

    I’m semi-involved in stuff Avery will be doing, and nobody told me about this, either. Were it not for Madison’s program lead’s tendency to forward emails around despite lack of relevance, I wouldn’t even know about this. Since I’m semi-involved, I could be very helpful getting Avery up to speed. I should have been roped in on this. In fact, roping Avery in should have gone through Madison’s program lead and my program lead, not through the people it did. The root cause on that one is too annoying to contemplate.

    I reached out to Avery and gave them what I know. I would just leave them and the program to sink or swim at this point, be available for question but not reach out any further. However, I plan to leverage Avery for things I need, so I’m going to stay involved with them.

    Work places, man.

    1. DCR*

      That is crazy to me! Everywhere I’ve ever worked, Avery‘s approach would’ve been the right process

      1. Close Bracket*

        Life is different in a strongly matrixed environment. Line management can’t authorize program work. Only program management can.

    2. Anathema Device*

      “but I’m also just like, hm, you are not new either to the workforce or to the company, how do you not know how to work within a program at a matrixed organization”

      How is asking someone to help the wrong thing to do?

      1. Close Bracket*

        lol. You have to ask the right person. And you have to get permission from the right person to ask the right person. In a matrixed organization, you go through the program.

  180. QueenB*

    Hey guys! I just wanted to thank everyone who gave me advice next week. I just accepted my first professional job yesterday! I start very soon and need to find a flat! The job is so exciting and the people are sooooo nice. I wish you all a happy weekend!

  181. Rena*

    Just a vent. I’m an entry level tech writer and have only worked in this field for about a year. I recently got hired into what I thought was a great role at a large company with plenty of opportunities for growth. This is something really rare in my area as most companies either want tech writers with at least 5 years of experience, or temporary contractors.

    I later found this company had a lot of issues, but my main concern is my coworker. He was a nepotism hire (hired a few months before me), and his dad is a senior manager. He was hired against the protests of all other tech writers because he was VERY unqualified. And it wasn’t just that he was inexperienced (I was hired in with little experience too), he’s not trainable and gets personally offended by basic feedback like “don’t bold and write in all-caps” or “we want to maintain a neutral professional tone, don’t write too casually”.

    Even though he was hired before me, I picked up on everything way faster than him. Now he turns to me for the most basic of questions, and I’ve been told to just put up with it because of his dad. Every single question he’s asked me can be answered by looking up the internal documentation that WE have written. Even if I give him links to the right documents, he STILL pings me asking for help. Just yesterday I had an allergic reaction at work, my face started swelling up, and I had to rush to a doctor. He asked me a question while I was gone. I didn’t return until this morning, and during those hours, he didn’t even bother trying to figure it out himself!

    It’s driving me nuts. I hate that I have the same position and pay as this absolutely useless lump. I haven’t even been at this company for a year and I already want to quit and take up temporary contract work just to get away form him.

    1. Cat Fan*

      What do you think would happen if you asked, “Why don’t you know this?” then just wait for him to respond. I wonder what he would say. Just put up with this? Did your manager tell you that? I would respond to every question of his with, “it’s in the instructions. Do you know where to find those?”

      1. Rena*

        To be honest, I’m scared if I offend him too much, he’ll complain to his dad. I’ve been getting increasingly shorter with him, but I guess I don’t really want to get too confrontational.

    2. CAA*

      I’ve been told to just put up with it because of his dad

      If the person who said this to you is your supervisor or manager, then sadly, this is now part of your job. It might help to think of it that way, and if you do status reports or are asked for a list of completed tasks, make sure to include “helping ‘Useless Lump’ locate relevant documentation” or “editing ‘Useless Lump’s’ documents to comply with corporate style guide” and include the amount of time you spend on these tasks.

      If you want to try to get him to act more independently, then you can try “I’m busy with my own projects and won’t be able to help with yours for another hour. Come back then with a list of places where you’ve looked for the answer and I’ll see if I can think of any other possibilities where you could search.” Then when you do have to help him, don’t give him the answer or look it up for him. Make him do the searching himself. Say “let’s go do this at your desk”, then he should sit at the keyboard while you tell him, o.k. go to the Intranet home page. Click on the link for the style guide, hit ctrl+f, type “indent” in the search box, etc. In general, make it painful for him to ask you for help.

      1. Rena*

        Yes it was my manager who told me to do it. You should see the weekly report I just wrote up. Half of it is literally “Teach Useless Lump how to do XYZ”, “Answered Useless Lump’s question on what ‘running a script’ means'”, “Showed Useless Lump where to save files (he didn’t know what the project directory was)”.

        Each time my manager sees it, he shakes his head and mutters this is why he didn’t want to hire him in the first place. He knows Useless Lump is well…useless, but even his hands are tied when it comes down to it.

        I guess I’ll try to be more painful when answering his questions. My latest strategy was to answer his questions really loudly, so his cubical neighbors all knew how oblivious he was (and maybe shame him a little).

  182. Anonnonaanon*

    Question for higher ed people:

    I have an onsite interview in a couple of weeks for a position that has a lot of “new!”ness involved — newly created position , new funding model for them (and it’s different from what I’m familiar with), mix of teaching and other responsibilities (this is an administrative role with some teaching, in other words).

    I received the interview schedule yesterday and it notes that the dean is not going to be in the office the day of my interview — so there’s no meeting scheduled with the dean. Meeting the dean is pretty much always part of an onsite in my field, and I would be apprehensive about taking a position like this without having that conversation — especially given how much newness is involved. A friend suggested that I ask if it would be possible to talk with the dean in some other way (phone, Skype, something like that).

    My question for y’all is: would you raise this question now prior to the interview? Or wait to see if there’s an offer? This would be a cross-country move for me and I really need as much information as I can get upfront.

    1. PB*

      It’s a little strange to me that the dean would be okay with not talking to candidates before hiring, especially for a position with so much “newness.” IME, the dean always wants to meet with candidates except for very short term-limited appointments.

      I think your friend’s suggestion is spot-on. I would not wait until there’s an offer on the table to ask this; it will be a key part of your decision making process. I think reaching out now to your HR contact would be a good idea. After all, if the answer is, “No, there’s no way to talk to the dean before hiring,” that might well impact your interest in this job. Alternatively, you could ask while you’re onsite for the interview, but I think the sooner, the better.

      1. Anonnonaanon*

        Thanks for the input ! (and for the confirmation that this is a little strange). Where I currently work I feel like my asking this would mark me as high-maintenance and, well, old — but then, our searches keep failing — so i appreciate an external viewpoint.

      2. Anonnonaanon*

        Whoo hoo! I got a very positive message back (I asked if I could possibly talk to the dean via phone or Skype after the flyout) and they’re going to set that up.

        Big thanks for the reality check!

  183. Pell-Mell*

    Rage quitting. My husband just texted me that he’s having such a miserable day that he’s threatening to rage quit.

    When he retired from the military in 2012, we transitioned into dream jobs, in our dream city, and built our dream house.. even brought home our dream dogs. Perhaps too much dreaming and good times were bound to end. The dream job went public, was bought by a big company and dismantled. He received his pink slip the same day he received a ‘happy 5yrs with the company’ card.

    After 4-mos of unemployment, and despite having sufficient funds to cover us through the year, he desperately took a job for more pay and required us to move 4 hours away, but it’s killing him (and us). We hate this city, the house (a money pit), the neighborhood. His job, security director for a major transportation line that has warehouses dotted around the city staffed by temporary employees who causes him so much stress. Internal disputes, thievery, bullying, gangs, harassment, violence, and the ubiquitous drama among people who have no loyalty to the company.

    He’s resolute in having a high paying job, at the expense of his sanity and family life, so we can save for retirement (or when our parents need us which will probably be sooner rather than later). He’s terrified of not having enough to live on as he wants to retire, again, at 60, 15 more years.

    I don’t know if going to a lower paying job in a smaller town will work for him. He’s been employed since he was 16 years old and has progressed in his career over the past 20 years.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’ve seen people not make it to retirement because their health is shot to heck because of this kind of awful job stress. He is burning the candle at both ends and that’s not sustainable. It will eat away at his body after it’s done eating away at his mental health.

      These are the ties you have weigh the options. We need money to survive but we need to be able to live in decent comfort to have a life worth surviving in the end. This is going to rub off on his family [you] and his ability to take care of aging parents [his patience is going to be even thinner as he ages and their ailments or special needs aren’t going to get better, so he needs to preserve his energy in that case].

      He’s already got a background in military which conditions you to take a lot of BS and keep eating mud as everyone tramples over your back. Which leads to a broken body, mind and spirit in the end. He has to find a way to break that soldier mentality, this is what kills our veterans in the end if the war doesn’t get them.

      I’m so sorry that you’re dealing with this and I’m truly hoping that he takes care of himself and finds a way to feel good about it. He can still take care of the retirement needs and current needs without being in such a horrible job situation.

    2. fposte*

      So you’re already hinting at some of this, but does he know what “enough” would look like? Do you all have a retirement “number”? Does he know what retirement from work would mean for him and what he’d do?

      Because I think that’s your biggest challenge here–this sounds like a person who hasn’t figured out a way to feel valid and productive without having a paid FTE job, and who has some money anxiety that means what he has is never enough. So I would recommend bogleheads dot org to you in order to get some idea of how to figure out what your retirement numbers could be and maybe some conversations with your husband about how he sees the next 20-30 years of life and what the best way for him to contribute would be. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to work! But maybe he could do more for the world with a part time or lower-stress job and a strong volunteer commitment, or spending more time with aging family members.

      FWIW, that’s a really hard mental transition for a lot of people–I went to counseling to work that out. So I sympathize that he’s struggling, but it sounds like he hasn’t really thought through why he might not have to if he doesn’t want to.

      1. CAA*

        I will second bogleheads as a great place to learn, and add that early-retirement.org is also a great group. Even if your DH can’t or won’t take the time to think about this right now, you can. fposte is entirely right that there’s just as much psychological as financial preparedness for retirement and even chatting online with people who’ve been there or are still working their way through it is helpful.

        It sounds like you’d be financially o.k. if he does quit this job, so maybe talk about that over the weekend. I did quit a job without having anything lined up once, and having a spouse who was understanding and supportive was key to me being able to do that and get to a place where I could be happy and productive again.

        1. valentine*

          You need a third party, probably a therapist, to help him adjust his objectives so they’re realistic and more likely to help your family, especially the two of you. I can’t think why you agreed to the desperation job four hours away and I hope you’re more willing to veto, or sit out, his extreme plans.

          He’s resolute in having a high paying job, at the expense of his sanity and family life […] as he wants to retire, again, at 60, 15 more years. .
          The priorities should be: sanity, family life, retirement. You might grow so distant, you don’t want to spend his retirement together. Are you meant to keep working, so you’ll have different lives if he retires on time? Does he have a plan for that? Does he enjoy traveling or doing anything else alone or with people with this same life plan? You never know what will happen. He could save up for retirement, then be thwarted somehow. Any godchildren or other dependents you might suddenly have them, especially anyone you’d put through college then? He’s got his eyes on the prize, but neither path nor prize is serving either of you.

  184. TechWorker*

    I’ve been generally unhappy with my job/role for months, not helped by an acquisition that came with an effective title demotion (even though I was assured my role wouldn’t change, which… wasn’t reassuring). My project was(/is) going badly and I’d convinced myself this had ruined my chances of promotion as well as generally causing me a bunch of stress. But.. I’ve been assigned a new mentor AND I got the promotion this week so things are definitely looking up! I still think there’s lots of problems, but now I can phrase it as ‘me needing to work out how to accurately report them upwards’ rather than ‘me failing because things are going badly’ which is a happier mindset to be in. And I am much happier to have a title (plus better benefits) that I feel actually reflects the work I am doing. Yay!

  185. Zephy*

    The thread’s been up for almost four hours and not a peep from Hellmouth (at time of writing). I hope she’s okay. Fingers crossed she’s off the Hellbus and just busy with new job stuff!

    3. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      Oh, I’m REALLY good. I’ve just been running around town all day and haven’t been able to type up anything yet!

      1. animaniactoo*

        Yay! I’m assuming this means you got to hit the send button on that resignation email!

          1. Sarah*

            Congratulations! I rarely comment, but I’ve been following your saga so long that I had to say something.

          8. Mimmy*

            I was just coming over here to see if you ever posted an update and saw the change to your username. I totally did this \o/ – sooooo happy for you!!

          10. Elbereth Gilthoniel*

            Congratulations!! I haven’t posted on your story, but I have been rooting for you as I’ve been reading the site. Best of luck!

      3. Drew*

        WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

        (pause for breath)

        WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!

        Happy dances and Jedi hugs all around!! This is absolutely the best news of this week!

  186. Alissa White*

    Right now we are trying to rework my company’s vacation policy. We get 10 days and the owner thinks that is incredibly generous and there is zero chance of officially getting more. However, we also are all salaried and have manager on duty shifts which mean when one person goes on vacation someone else has to cover, so it’s likely if one person is away for a week, the rest of the team works 6 full days. Obviously when you do the math and everyone covers evenly, we make up every single day off by covering someone else. In reality it isn’t quite this bad, but you would probably need to be off at least 20 days to net 10 days really off and 10 covering someone. (The team is small enough that hiring a float person to cover the gaps is not workable.) I’m thinking of trying to propose a system like that, but if you did it by tracking days off vs days covered someone could really unevenly burn themselves out then be away for a month or two which wouldn’t really keep the consistency we need for the job. Whatever policy we use will be approved by the general manager and not the owner, so as long as we can spin it as only 10 days off it’s a possibility. Have you seen something like this work anywhere and if so how?

    1. animaniactoo*

      You could limit length of vacation breaks. For a long time while my company was in transition, you got 2 weeks of vacation but you could only take 1 of them at a time.

      So you could have people earn the extra day(s) through covering for someone else, but limit their ability to take it all in one chunk.

    2. Boom! Tetris for Jeff!*

      If everyone takes 20 days off and somebody else has to cover for them during those 20 days, wouldn’t you end up with the same net zero days off as in the 10 day scenario?

    3. Anono-me*

      Could managees be temporarily promoted to fill in for the vacationing managers? Maybe with regular managers being available on call for support in case of big emergencies.

      This would be a way to avoid managers having to give up part of their weekend to cover when someone else is on vacation.

      It would make it easier for managers to take vacation at the same time.

      If a manager had some sort of emergency situation that required long-term leave, you would have someone who already had some training and had shown that they had the chops who could step up and fill-in, rather than having a mad scramble.

      This would also benefit your organization as you would be growing your own future managers in house, with time to evaluate them.

      People with potential to move into management are more apt to stay with a company if they see a clear path to management training and eventually a management position.

  187. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from NOT THE HELLMOUTH, my friends! That’s right. I. AM. FREE. I was offered the leasing position at the fancy new property on Monday, and I immediately accepted it, gave notice, and then shortened my notice. It’s a big pay cut, but not as big as I was afraid of, and it will pay the bills while I keep looking/interviewing for non-property management jobs—and in one to two weeks I should know if I made it to the top three for that state position that I am still very excited about. HUZZAH! I am still out running errands/refreshing my interview wardrobe slightly/heading to the salon so I have a fresh ‘do when I start the new job/etc, etc, but I will update with fun last-week-on-the-Hellmouth details and new job fears later today. However, I would like to invite you all to join me in my all day dance party (it’s a legitimate dance party, guys, I have actually been dancing my way through my errands like a crazy person) because I have finally escaped the worst job I’ve ever had—like, two days before I hit the one year mark there. FIZZY BEVERAGE OF CHOICE FOR ALL!

    3. Lynne879*

      CONGRATULATIONS!

      Let us know if you ever decide to publish a book about your experiences working at the Hellmouth, so that all your stories are compiled in one place xD

          1. Seeking Second Childhood*

            ::THIS::
            (Note to self: Write an April Fool’s letter to Alison purporting to be from Richard Henry Dana after he realizes his short stint on a boat has been extended without his knowledge…)

      2. Minocho*

        This must happen! Your writing is amazing, and you deserve to get something lasting out of that horrible experience!

      3. Fact & Fiction*

        HOORAY! So glad you’re getting out of there!

        And I have an amazing literary agent I can recommend! LOL. If she doesn’t rep non-fiction, she’s at a big agency where someone certainly does. Haha!

    6. CatCat*

      YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!

      *joins dance party*

    7. kelly white*

      YAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    8. leya*

      CONGRATULATIONS!!!! been waiting for you to get out every week – so happy it’s finally happening!! now channeling all my wishes into getting you out of property management. so exciting!!!

    10. Teapot Painter*

      CONGRATULATIONS!!!!!!!!!

      I have been following this saga for months and I am so glad you finally made it out!!!! Can’t wait for the final update and see what has been happening all week!

    13. Drew*

      FURTHER WOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!-AGE! MOAR DANCING! ALL THE FIZZEH BEVERAGES! MAXIMUM CAPS LOCK ENGAGED!!

      1. Drew*

        Now that I’m done hyperventilating for joy, I would love it if you could write a post for Alison about red flags you may have missed when looking for the Hellmouth Job From Hell, your earliest signs that maybe it was a tiny bit toxic, and survival tips for a completely toxic workplace when you absolutely cannot escape.

        Asking for a friend. Who may be me. Not working on a Hellmouth but it’s certainly Heck-adjacent sometimes.

        1. Going Anon Today - TGIF*

          Hellmouth, I think this is a great idea!
          That would make for a fantastically horrific story. The kind of thing that should be taught in business schools.

    16. Peachkins*

      I’ll be honest- I’m going to miss these updates. I am so happy for you though!

    20. Notthemomma*

      So many congrats!!!! I don’t know that I’ve ever been happier for a stranger!!!! Actual, literal scream of ‘Yeeessss!!!!’
      Please compile your stories someday; I would sure buy that book!

    22. Meißner Porcelain Teapot*

      This is the best thing I’ve heard all week and I am super happy for you! Congratulations! I eagerly await the details of your daring escape from the clutches of hell

    24. Jen in Oregon*

      This just made my day!! And yes, I have been ctrl/F search for “hellmouth” all day as well. :-)

      Enjoy the ever-loving shite out of this day, and I look forward to reading the LAST INSTALLMENT of this saga as soon as you are up to writing and posting it!!!

      SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!

    26. Karen from Finance*

      SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      *Joins the dance party*

      It might have to do with the fact that I’m very sleep deprived, but I got a little teary-eyed reading this. I’m SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!

      So how of a notice period do you have?

      1. Old Admin*

        How low HAS our Hellmouth worker been forced to go already!
        Last week, she basically had to limbo on her heels and elbows!

        There is no way but up from here. :-) :-) :-)

    30. Three Pines Visitor*

      Best news I’ve had all week! Will be obsessively checking throughout the day for the deets!

    31. LGC*

      I’m literally screaming in joy for you oh my God

      Congrats on getting out and on surviving!

    32. Aphrodite*

      !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      I am so, so, so happy for you!

    33. kittymommy*

      PRAISE THE LORD I’M POPPIN’ THE DOM!!!

      Seriously I’m so happy for you!!! I think your mental health will fully appreciate the change regardless of the paycut.

    34. Elaine*

      I am so happy for you! And I hope you are offered the state position you want. I have been following your posts for some time – and some of them have nearly brought me to tears feeling bad for you.

    37. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      FREEDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      I’m mildly sad it’s a property management job but it’s outweighed by you being F_R_E_E from the Hellmouth.

      GO GRAB THOSE ARMADILLOS AND TAKE THEM WITH YOU!

    40. Siege*

      I’m so happy for you! I’ve been following your story since your letter – so glad you got out of there. Thank you for taking us on the journey with you!

    41. Catherine Tilney*

      YOU DID IT!!! I’m so happy for you!!! I shall be dancing for you all night.

    42. Deranged Cubicle Owl*

      I’ve put on an appropriate soundtrack for you: the “Hallelujah Chorus” from Handel.

      Congrats! Really!

    43. SQL Coder Cat*

      I’m so happy for this update I can’t stop smiling. I am so, so glad you are free of that place. I’m still keeping my fingers and toes crossed that you’ll get a non-property management job soon!

    44. Weegie*

      Woohoo! Couldn’t be happier for you – it’s been a long time coming, and you deserve some good luck :-) Will miss those updates, though…

    48. Tabby Baltimore*

      I couldn’t get past the word “FREE” before I just had to type ***CONGRATULATIONS!!!*** Soooooo happy for you!

    49. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

      Finally!! What a wonderful day! Concatulations, may your future employment be wonderful… or at least sane.

    50. I Work on a Hellmouth*

      THANK YOU EVERYONE! Terrible weather in my neck of the woods has taken out the power (and internet) and I need to conserve my phone battery just in case, so personal replies and fun Hellmouth details will go up tomorrow for anyone who is interested—tonight the Household That Is No Longer Associated With A Hellmouth is going out to celebrate (and if the power is still out when we get back we’re building a blanket fort and making candle stick s’mores). But everyone has been so lovely and supportive, and I genuinely appreciate all of the love and positive vibes, guys!

      1. Nicki Name*

        Sounds like the Hellmouth is trying to take one last shot at you as you escape forever!

      2. WoodswomanWrites*

        Wonderful, I’ll be watching for your post. You have so many fans here, and deserve only the best job out there. And I’ll add my two cents that that you’re a terrific writer and I would certainly love seeing your posts put into a collection as a story, now that you don’t have to live and breathe the Hellmouth anymore.

        Congratulations again!

      4. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Hip hip hurrah!!
        I think this deserves its own new dance move…maybe based off of something in the original (silly fun) Buffy movie.
        In the meantime I’ll do the ‘pre-coffee stagger’

      5. Meißner Porcelain Teapot*

        I’d like to think of the terrible weather as the hellmouth being a really pitiful, sorry loser. Here’s to hoping it will pass soon and the power is back on!

    52. Jean (just Jean)*

      Late to the party but oh, SO HAPPY FOR YOU!!!!!!!!!
      Smiling and smiling here.

    56. Anon Librarian*

      So you’re the letter writer from “I Work On a Hellmouth . . . “? I remember that letter. I’ve been seeing your name in the comments. I wasn’t sure if it was the same person or not.

      1. Zephy*

        Check the Open Threads going back since that letter and read the whole saga, it’s wild.

    57. Liane*

      Sorry, I know I am way past fashionably late to the dance party–but for such a great event, I’m sure it’s still going on.
      Congratulations!

    58. Easily Amused*

      WAHOO!!! The past tense post we’ve all been waiting for! Many congratulations and I hope this new job is wonderful while the state job comes through!

    63. Random Senior Poster*

      Excitedly waiting for the update tomorrow. I am so excited for you! Congratulations!

    65. it's all good*

      I had to reread the poster name…….. yahoo! I will be dancing all weekend in you honor! And have an alcoholic beverage, salud!

    67. revueller*

      HAPPY HELLMOUTH INDEPENDENCE DAY! I’m so happy for you! best of luck looking for non-property management positions going forward, but I’m so so so happy you’re out of that place!

    68. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      I have power! I have my laptop! I have coffee! I am now fully capable of typing up details about my Hellmouth escape for anyone that is interested! (Thank you coffee.) Although the details might not be as exciting as you would hope—no literal demons sprang forth and attempted to block my leaving, despite all of my expectations, the place wasn’t swallowed by a sink hole as I drove away (which is actually good, as Awesome Temp was there through Friday)—but here we go!

      If you remember from last week, I had two great interviews, was confident that I would be getting a job offer from a fancy Class A property for a leasing position (but was kind of stressing about it and feeling a lot of pre-guilt as I knew it would just be a stop gap position for me as I continued to pursue a non-property management job), had already typed up my notice letter, and was just waiting for a job offer to manifest before I hit send. Well, true confession time: I actually went ahead and hit send on that resignation email first thing Monday morning before I got a job offer. I knew that I had no desire to work for the new management company (DudeBro, Inc.), as I had worked for them before and really DID NOT care for their culture or their insistence that arms should be covered to below the elbow at all times and pantyhose was STRONGLY ADVOCATED FOR, even if you happen to work in a semi-tropical climate. Or the belief stated in their mandatory sexual harassment class that went something like “If you are a woman and are not covered from above the collarbone to below the elbow to several inches below the knee, you are sexually harassing your male coworkers” (true story). I just… would never work for them again anywhere, but ESPECIALLY not on a Hellmouth. So off my notice went! It specifically stated that I was resigning for health reasons (truth, my mental and physical health require NOT being on a Hellmouth), and that baring any complications (not being able to take it anymore) my last day would be Friday (optimistic, and ultimately not what wound up happening). And then I sat sick with anxiety for several hours as I waited.

      While I waited, the Hellmouth seemed to work double time to convince me that I had made a grave and terrible mistake. Only the sweetest people came in to tour. Only the kindest residents called or stopped by. The new manager arrived, and seemed both warm and competent. The wretched maintenance supervisor who liked to tell extremely explicit stories and who made that threatening phone call to me that one time was packing up to leave forever. No wasps dive bombed me as I walked through the office. And I briefly caught my self wondering… were things going to be better here? Had I been too hasty? And then I remembered: NO. I HATE IT HERE. I HATE THE NEW COMPANY. SOMEONE GOT SHOT A FEW WEEKS BACK. EVERYTHING IS TERRIBLE HERE. And I immediately grabbed my stuff and left for lunch before the Hellmouth could further cloud my brain. About five minutes after that I got the call from FancyTown, detoured over there, signed my new hire paperwork, and set up my drug test for the next day. Yeehaw!

      I returned to absolute chaos. A gentleman who had preleased an apartment showed up with a moving truck filled with his stuff, ready to move in—but his apartment wouldn’t even be vacant for another week. (He hadn’t called ahead or anything, and had no reason to expect his apartment to be ready—he had just decided that he was ready to move in). The meanest residents were either blowing up the phone or were physically in the office. One resident was claiming a previously unreported mold issue and had a doctor’s note claiming we had personally given them asthma, and demanded that we give them money or waive the security deposits and transfer fees for new (upgraded) apartment that they wanted to move into at a significant rent discount. The other was claiming that since we had to schedule a contractor to work on his roof and they couldn’t do the work same day we were in violation of a clause in the lease and it was now null and void. Fun! Oh! And while I was out on property a very creepy resident tried VERY HARD to talk me into getting into his vehicle!

      At about this time I remembered that yes, I definitely was not making a mistake in leaving the Hellmouth. Then the new manager started asking questions that 1) a seasoned property management professional probably shouldn’t be asking (think things like “How strict is the income requirement?” “But how much discretion and wiggle room do I have on the income requirement?” “How strict is the company about things like taking liberties with the income requirement in certain cases?” “How often do you think they will check up on things like that?”). And yeah, I remembered that the Hellmouth is, was, and would always be a sketchy, shady, not great place to work. I also realized that I could easily wrap up everything that I needed to by Wednesday (especially since there wouldn’t even be any way to do admin work since all of our software and systems had gone dark), and that I was going to go absolutely banana crackers if I tried to last the full week.

      And so, immediately after returning from my drug test the next day, I let the new manager know that I was going to have appointments all day Thursday and Friday (not untrue, I just didn’t say what KIND of appointments—hair appointments et al ARE technically appointments) and that I would have to move up my last day. She did not seem overly bothered by this, and we quickly learned that she was poaching the entire leasing office from the property that she just left. The girl who is going to take my position actually stopped by for about half an hour… um, she was extremely unfriendly and seems to think that she’s just going to be doing admin work and won’t really have any contact with residents. The new manager, who appears to be a “closed door” manager, also seems to think the same about her position. I, uh, wish them luck with that.

      My last day was kind of excellent. I decided to really embrace the ridiculous and had a whole playlist set up for the day. I clocked in to Europe’s Final Countdown. I played myself out to George Micheal’s Freedom (put on my phone especially for the occasion). I drove away to Battle Without Honor or Humanity from Kill Bill. And in between all of that I very cheerfully scheduled every terrible person who called or came in with an absolutely crazypants issue to come back… on a different day. And Awesome Temp, who had heard me joking about not getting a party like The Good Leasing Consultant did when he left, got a really yummy giant lemon cake for the office that read “We Will Miss You, [I Worked on a Hellmouth]!” I took an extended lunch break, but came back with fancy watermelon slushies for everyone as a goodbye, and had a sugar fest with the few non-jerks there (the jerks didn’t really participate, although they still grabbed cake at various points in the day). And fifteen minutes before I left forever, I got my final confirmation that I had definitely made the right choice: I discovered that the new manager had been told by Regional VP that Hellboss had “left for a new company” and was definitely not fired and had not had any issues at the property at all. The new manager was legitimately stunned to learn that this was not the case, and I genuinely get the feeling that she was probably told a lot of other bald faced lies and has literally no idea what she has stepped into. Poor woman.

      So, that’s basically where it ends. There have been a few dying sputters (my favorite being a form rejection email that popped up from DudeBro, Inc. in my email this morning… even though I never applied for my position with them), but I’m free and no one there knows where I am, what I am doing, or how to find me. In two or three weeks I will hopefully have a final interview with the really awesome state agency that I interviewed with, but even if I do not I am still actively applying and looking. I know that I’m going to be free of property management as long as I just keep plugging away. But I probably couldn’t have maintained my sanity or gotten out without the support, positive vibes, excellent pop culture references, suggestions, needed advice and reality checks, and general awesomeness from all of you. A deep and sincere thank you, guys. I will be making individual replies and thank yous starting later this afternoon/evening (my awesome partner and I are going to the movies to continue the Goodbye Hellmouth celebration and also see that new 6 minutes of footage for Avengers: Endgame and other fun stuff), and if anyone has any burning final questions about the Hellmouth, feel free to throw them up and I will answer them. But more than anything, I just want to say THANK YOU, AWESOME PEOPLE. Let no Hellmouth get you down, and may the squirrels always have your backs.

      1. Troutwaxer*

        Cthulhu is sad! You have slipped from his grasp and his minions will be punished!

        Fhtagn!

        1. Troutwaxer*

          P.S. You should find the right kind of religious figure for your spiritual needs and undergo a cleansing ceremony. The ichor stains and will eventually develop a life of it’s own.

      2. HappySnoopy*

        I decided to Ctrl+F as I was finishing paying my bills. First, yay, you have power again! Umpteen Yays joined on everyone else’s that your name has changed to I WORKED on the Hellmouth! I’ve mostly been lurking for the last few months to your saga. I hope you have a good experience at FancyTown mgmt company and can take your time/settle into next phase of career (still keeping fingers crossed on the state job).

        I think the thing that made me blink most of all was that DudeBro Inc. rejected your application for a job you never asked for…was this their weird way of laying you off because everyone autoapplied in the transition? OMG. Did you leave new manager the HR lady’s info if she needed more info…or is HR gone now that DudeBro is in? Hope AwesomeTemp finds a better Awesome new stop. I love how the last few minutes you were there, you filled in new manager on the tip of the hellmouth iceberg.

        Again good luck at FancyTown and the next awesome job!

      3. NerdyLibraryClerk*

        The new manager, who appears to be a “closed door” manager, also seems to think the same about her position. I, uh, wish them luck with that.

        This puts me in mind of the scene at the end of The Mummy (1999) where Benny is sealed in the tomb and the scarabs come. Only, you know, with squirrels and wasps. (Or worse. The Hellmouth just might import those scarabs.)
        “Whew, I have sealed out the tenants!” The new property management team turns to see what they’ve sealed themselves in with. The camera then pans out of the room as a scream is heard.

        Congratulations on your escape! And if you ever decide to write the whole thing up as a book, please let us know. I’d certainly buy it! And recommend it for the library collection.

      4. Aphrodite*

        Wonderful, wonderful ending. Okay, maybe there was no bomb going off but by god you saw a lot of last-minute ticking.. (They’ll explode later when . . . discoveries are made, experiences are developed, and screams of rage and frustration shoot outward from those “innocents” left behind.

        I couldn’t be happier for anyone else right now. Enjoy your extended celebration! And maybe keep us up on your job, however, temporary (or even great) it turns out to be.

      5. Annie Bohannie*

        You should send an email to the new manager giving her the AAM website. She’s going to need it.

      6. bunniferous*

        Oh, to be a fly on the wall at the Hellmouth for the next week or so…..anyway so glad you escaped! I also hope you will continue to post updates on what you are up to now-you are a VERY entertaining poster!

        Finally, somebody needs to film a pilot-Amazon Prime, I am looking at you….

        1. ThursdaysGeek*

          Yes, it could be interesting to get further updates from AwesomeTemp. But it’s so much better to not get any more updates, because Worked is now free.

      7. They Don’t Make Sunday*

        This made my day. I’ve been a devoted lurker here in the Hellmouth threads and I couldn’t be happier for you. I do hope you keep writing. This whole saga feels like something out of a George Saunders story, only with a very real downside: All this crap happened in an actual place. To an actual person. I hope you get a good long time to recharge in blissful, wasp-free, hmm-she-didn’t-leave-a-contact-number peace.

      9. WoodswomanWrites*

        What a truly fantastic ending. I love the bright spots in your departure–they don’t have your contact info, the appropriate musical accompaniment, Awesome Temp seeing you off with a cake. I hope she’s not far behind you getting out of that place.

        I’m envisioning a film title on a marquee, Escape From The Hellmouth. All the best to you and fingers crossed for the state job coming through!

      10. EddieSherbert*

        Congrats, congrats, congrats. On to bigger and better things. So happy you are finally free!

      11. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Coming back in to say that I have a two-line parody of an old Irish tune going through my head:
        “May the road rise to meet you
        may the squirrels be always at your back.”
        I haven’t managed to work in the armadillos yet.

      12. Free Meerkats*

        “fancy watermelon slushies” Fess up, you stopped at a daiquiri stand.

        Congratulations and Good Luck!

    70. Sleve McDichael*

      Not sure if you’re still reading comments, I WORKED on a Hellmouth, but please keep the updates coming about your new job. As someone who has been following your adventures I really want to read some more updates from you where I can feel happy for you instead of horrified.
      Also, if you have the free time you should send Alison an update for those who don’t read the open threads.
      CONGRATULATIONS 3000

    71. londonedit*

      OK I am so late…but yay! Congratulations! When I saw there were over 2,000 comments on the Friday open thread I wondered what the heck had happened, and I’m SO glad to discover it’s because everyone’s congratulating you on finally escaping the Hellmouth!

      Wishing you the very best of luck with both your interim non-Hellmouth job and with the big exciting state job too. Hope you’re still celebrating even though it’s Monday!

    72. Not A Morning Person*

      Best update ever! So happy for you to be out of this crazy. Good luck to you in your new job and in your continuing search!

  188. Wannabe Manager*

    Any advice on how to get my first People Management job without any relevant experience?

    I’m a Software Developer with 5+ years or experience, and would like to apply for Team Lead jobs.
    Problem is, I don’t have any experience managing people.
    I’m into Psychology though, and have read quite a few Psychology/People Skills/Management books.
    And I have experience of running my own (one person) online business and dealing with customers.

    Any way I can spin those things to convince people I can be a manager? :)
    (Let’s say that getting promoted in my current job is not an option, and I would like to apply for a Team Lead job somewhere else).

    1. Indy*

      I moved from a technical role into management, so I know exactly what you are going through. I would suggest getting into product/program/product management first, to develop your management style and build your acumen. In the meantime, think about the things that you do that apply to “people” management every day in the tech space. Highlight the duties that you perform that support your desire to manage.

      – Do you lead meetings with management presence?
      – Are you able to create presentations in various formats that are suited to a higher level audience?
      – Do you send email communications to executive and C-suite level management?
      – Are you adept at communicating with various levels of technical depth?
      – Have you acted as a Scrum master?
      – Are you consulted by junior employees due to your extensive experience?
      – Are you consulted by management for ideas or approvals of tech ideas, tech stacks, or new initiatives?
      – Have you taken initiative and improved processes?
      – Do you mentor and/or coach your peers?
      – Do you participate in interviewing new hires?
      – Do you create technology roadmaps?
      – Do you map out system architecture?

      All of these are key in tech management. Call any experience you have out on your resume, and tailor your resume as much as possible to meet listed job requirements. I would also seek out a mentor if possible, someone who knows your work and may be able to point out any areas of concern. Good luck!

        1. Indy*

          The most important skill that I have learned going from tech to management – ELI5. Learn to explain technology to a 5 year old, because explaining things at that high level is very important.

    2. A Person*

      Another thing I see sometimes is “Lead” positions that are more of a technical lead where you aren’t managing People. That might be a good first step to develop the non-people aspects of managing. In a best case scenario you could find a company that needs a tech lead now but wants to develop them into a team lead. (I’m in Analytics, but had a really similar path in my current role where I started officially managing about 8 months into the role). In general I find it’s pretty hard to get a job that starts at people management right off the bat with a new company. Either getting enough non-people lead experience that they are willing to risk it or finding a job where that’s what they are going to need soon seem like the best options.

  189. AlligatorSky*

    So I didn’t the job that I interviewed for last week :( So crushed, I wanted it so badly and it was perfect for me. My contract at my current job is coming to an end and I have nothing lined up, despite my attempts to find another position. I wish getting a job was as easy as it is in the Sims!!

    2. Nynaeve*

      I’m so sorry–rejection is never fun, but it’s especially hard when you had hopes for a great possibility. Best wishes on finding something soon.

  190. Indy*

    Is it appropriate to apply for a position, and also have your resume sent via a company’s referral process? Will this potentially cause an issue with the ATS and duplicate submissions? I applied for a position via LinkedIn with a company, for which I am qualified based on the job description and requirements. A day or two later a client I had worked with in a similar capacity to the job posting updated their LinkedIn to show they work at that company as an executive, and for nearly a year! How fortuitous!

    The project we worked on together was successful, the client had a positive experience with me personally, and we worked together for over a year implementing an extremely difficult set of requirements. This person said heck yes to referring me, but now I am wondering if I just created a problem for myself. Does anyone have any experience with this scenario?

    1. Boom! Tetris for Jeff!*

      Why not ask your awesome contact how to handle it best? Let them know you’ve submitted the application through LinkedIn and ask if that’s sufficient or if you should re-submit your resume through him. It may be they will just reach out to HR to recommend you. Or re-submit the resume through the referral process with a note *previously applied through LinkedIn.

    2. Indy*

      I did ask my contact, and they reported that this is their first time and they did not know, but they had already submitted me through their portal. I am just hoping to quell my concerns that this would flag as duplicate in their ATS.

      1. CAA*

        It is most likely not a problem. A good ATS should record the date/time and source of the submission and flag any duplicates. When I’ve seen these, it’s been pretty obvious what happened.

        And really, even when it’s not obvious, I wouldn’t reject a candidate who’d applied for a job twice. It happens.

  191. Me--Blargh!*

    Sorry, no job updates. :(

    I’ve enlisted Cool Relative to help me figure out this situation (reminder: I need to sell the house to move to find a better job, but I have nowhere to go if I sell the house). Two heads are better than one, and he understands the issues with Difficult Relative, who has been assisting me and whom I desperately need to avoid a living situation with. Other than that, I don’t know what to do, but if I’m going to sell my house quickly, I have to list it NOW. But I have nowhere to go. But I have to go. But I have nowhere to go. On and on, an endless loop. Ugh.

    I’ve begun packing just in case. At least if I have to throw stuff in storage, I can do it quickly if everything is already packed. I’m purging as much as I can. Ye gods, how did I get so many damn books?!

  192. Nynaeve*

    How to do necessary work stuff when you just can’t bring yourself to care?

    Context: recent university restructuring and new director who is going along with some ill-conceived decisions (let’s put a gym in the library!). I’ve come to accept that this is all above my pay grade, so I’m trying to detach. But I may have been too successful because I’m having trouble motivating myself to do even the basics of my job, much less do work on long-term projects like I should.

    I applied for another job recently, but don’t think I’ll get it… and I’m secretly relieved? It would be a lot more work and I don’t feel like I could handle it. I feel like I’m not good enough to have the job I already have, much less push for something better or different.

    I basically just try to distract myself with the internet. And I know it’s bad and that’s not productive. Sometimes I can summon enough energy to hate myself for not doing the work, but not enough energy to just… do the work.

    (Yeah, I know it’s probably depression. But I had hoped I was past all that. Sigh.)

    1. Karen from Finance*

      I wish I had an answer for you but I have been staring at my screen blankly trying not to fall asleep for the past 6 hours. So just a lot of sympathy.

      I do think on the long term you should probably start thinking about what you would like to do and start job searching there.

    2. Qwerty*

      Can you listen to music while you work? I’ve found having motivating music helps push me out of a slump. I have different playlists for different types of tasks so I don’t get too sick of it.

      – Workout style music for when you just have to push through. On really hard to motivate days I directly use my running playlist because my brain has associated that with Doing Things.
      – Video game music. There’s some info on the internet about how the journey music is good for general tasks and the battle music is good for pushing you through tough spots.
      – Christina Perri’s self-playlist is my go-to for the I-don’t-want-to-be-here-Everyone-is-sexist days. It starts off motivating and then melds into acknowledging the struggles of humanity, so I get to be self-pitying and happy and the same time
      – Music you rocked out to from your teenage years or listened to while doing college homework. Backstreet boys tends to give my mind a little “yay, I rememeber this!” which I use to keep going

      Break your tasks down into small steps so you get the joy of crossing each step off, motivating you to do the next one.

      I’m sorry that things are so tough. I hope that you are able to treat your depression. In the meantime, please don’t hate yourself for not doing the work! Try telling yourself “I can do this!” or “I can take one step!” (yes, with the fake excitement – fake it till you make it), because beating yourself up will only make things worse.

    3. Dasein9*

      Sending wellwishes. It’s so very difficult to motivate to do work that is just nonsensical.

      What I do, and YMMV, is find some aspect of the task, not the job, that I can figure out like a puzzle. What happens if I try doing this a different way? How can I make this faster? Sometimes that even works.

  193. Sigh*

    Today I filled out our employee satisfaction survey… and was VERY honest in me feedback. It wasn’t anonymous. Has anyone ever had that go well for them?

    1. Gaia*

      I’ve never been one to care if my feedback is anonymous. If I’m irritated enough to fill out your survey, you’ve heard my feedback already and done nothing about it. I’ve never had it go bad for me, but I’m pretty sure that was out of pure incompetence on their part (shrug).

      That said, companies that don’t care enough to make their surveys anonymous – truly anonymous with heavy protections in place to guarantee anonymity – suck and deserve honest, candid, and critical feedback.

      Good luck!

  194. Leela*

    Stop asking people to enter your hours for you in the payroll system, holy s***. Why do people think it’s okay to ask someone to do this? Not being good with computers, feeling like you’re too busy, not wanting to do it, being forgetful, none of these are good excuses to palm your work off on to whichever vaguely-related admin person you can find unless your company has expressly told you that it’s going to be taken care of by someone else.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ick, is that multiple people pawning this task off on to support staff? It sounds like they need to rethink the payroll system they have if it’s so cumbersome to deal with and people are “too busy”, smfh. But still not an admins place regardless.

      1. Leela*

        Yep 1 admin and a large number of staff who are all supposed to enter their own hours, and a large number of that staff asking the 1 admin person to do it for them behind the scenes because they’ve been told they’re not supposed to ask them to do it. People with a lot more capital and power than the admin, who is already at max capacity for work and doesn’t have time to take on parts of other peoples’ jobs.

  195. I See Real People*

    Recently, I received an email from LinkedIn saying that I came up in a search result for my current title (i.e. search for Teapot Painters), searched for by my current company. It was for “my title” for “my boss” and “a soon-to-be C-Level” together. I don’t know who has searchable rights of my company on Linked In, but I know it’s not the marketing department (because I asked). I think I know the answer. What do you think?

    1. Close Bracket*

      I’m not sure what you are asking. I come up in search results all the time, and I think nothing except that someone was searching on a particular set of keywords that I match. LinkedIn sends me the notifications. Do you think someone is searching for you specifically? If they are, what is the concern?

      1. I See Real People*

        It was my current company searching for my title (I currently serve the CEO) plus serving another soon to be c-level. It looked like they were looking for possible applicants to me.

    2. CAA*

      If I searched for “companyX” “teapot painter” “john smith” “mary jones”, I would find the teapot painters who work at companyX and might know John or Mary, even though I don’t work there. No special permission is needed to do that search.

      It might be a teapot painter who’s looking for a job working with Mary again and wants to find out if she knows anyone else who’s already working in the org.

  196. Tau*

    Recruiter etiquette check:

    I got in touch with a former colleague and he forwarded me the details of two recruiters: the external one through whom he’d gotten his current job and the internal one at said job. I spoke with the external recruiter and she sent me the details for a few different companies… including the one former coworker currently works for.

    It’s not wrong of me to say “sorry, I already have a contact there and would prefer to apply through them”, or? I know that going behind a recruiter’s back is generally a jerk move, but in this case I knew about the job and had the details for the internal recruiter before I ever even spoke to her. I also worry it’d look very weird to have her handle my candidacy given that former colleague would be recommending me.

    1. CupcakeCounter*

      Nope you need to tell her that you already have a contact at that company and she cannot submit your information.

    2. designbot*

      I think the way I’d put that is more “oh they’ve got my information already, I’m old news to them.” The recruiter won’t *want* to put you forward for a company they can’t collect a commission on.

  197. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

    I am concerned about an intern’s work environment and I don’t know if/how I should proceed.

    Our Teapot Glazing Manager has intern or co/op students working for him year-round. They are *always* female, and *always* younger than 25 (which is a recent realization, see below). I am not a part of the interview/selection process, so I do not know if this position gets an equal number of male and female candidates, or if they are mostly female and it’s statistically likely that the intern is female based on the candidate distribution, etc. I did not give this any consideration until recently, when my office got moved into the same general area.

    Glazing Manager talks about himself, non-stop, for upwards of 5 hours per day. While this is going on, he sits less than a foot from the intern, legs spread open around her chair/legs, and physically blocks her cube door. I can hear every single word he says, and topics range from the weather to his personal life (in great detail) to politics. He is at least 25 years older than her (I feel like this is relevant). As far as I can tell, there is little work or learning going on… This went on with the last co-op student (her last day was a few weeks ago) and is continuing with the new intern.

    In addition to being concerned that the intern isn’t getting a meaningful experience, I am concerned that the he may be making her uncomfortable. (Full disclosure: I am in my late 40’s, female, and I find him creepy. I may be projecting my creeped-out feeling on this situation?).

    I can’t go to HR (a long story), and I can’t make eye contact with her to mouth ARE YOU OK? because he’s blocking her view out of her cube literally all of the time. When I was her age and in an internship, I would not have wanted to complain that someone was making me uncomfortable and lose my internship experience (even if it only looked good on paper) – but this may be more projecting. Should I take her out to lunch and flat-out ask if she’s ok?

    1. PB*

      You’re not projecting. This is creepy. While I think centering the intern is a good impulse, there’s enough here that you don’t have to ask her if she’s okay before intervening. I know you said you can’t go to HR, but is there another option? Does Glazing Manager have a boss you can talk to? I can’t imagine his supervisor would be pleased! Alternatively, is there a coordinator of the co-op program? If so, tell them. They would likely be pissed. Can you talk to your own boss?

      1. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

        Unfortunately, my own boss is in a different state. Glazing Manager’s boss is a corporate VP (high up on the food chain), so I think I should try routing this through the proper channels (at least a bit!) before going to him.

        There may be someone at corporate HR (asking a work buddy about interns without divulging details) who can look into this. Outside-of-work friend wants me to leave a note in the bathroom for her – we are the only women regularly in this building.

        My concern, other than her well-being, is making a big stink of this and then finding out that she is actually OK with her situation. I definitely don’t want to make her uncomfortable in a different way, or ruin her internship if she’s getting something out of it.

        Arrrrrrrgh!

        1. Gaia*

          Here’s the thing. Maybe *she* is okay with it. But maybe a past intern wasn’t. And maybe a future intern won’t be. Or maybe he is only hiring young female interns. All of that still matters even if she is okay with it. You’re not okay with it (and you shouldn’t be) and that is reason enough to bring this to HR. It is then their job to ensure it is investigated and handled appropriately.

          His behavior is seriously gross and inappropriate.

            1. valentine*

              Outside-of-work friend wants me to leave a note in the bathroom for her
              No cloak and dagger. Nothing she might report to Gross Guy.

              You can’t go to HR. Can she? If you speak to her and she both doesn’t tell him and agrees he’s a predator, what recourse does she have? He makes you uncomfortable and that’s enough. Report him any which way you can. Can you get your boss on the phone? I get that you’d prefer to speak in person, but them responding appropriately would also be a win.

              And it cannot be said too often that he is totally and completely gross, from his position to his narcissism and at various points in between.

        3. nym2*

          Maybe, if you have an opportunity, happen to head out at the same time as her one afternoon and take the chance for a quick check on the way to your cars or the bus stop? Something on the order of “hey, I’ve seen this, and I want you to know that if you’re creeped out or think it’s weird, it’s ok to let me know, and we can talk about how to make it stop.”

        4. Batgirl*

          If she’s OK with it? That’s actually more worrying. I mean, isn’t that the whole reason that these guys swerve women their own age? Because while I was going “ugh” and “red flag #2” a few sentences into your description, early-twenties me would have twisted myself into pretzels with “Maybe he’s just awkward” and “That’s how lots of guys sit”. Unless she has developed a healthy wariness of this behaviour, and trusts her instincts, then she’s at risk of accepting invitations to go somewhere secluded for ‘business reasons’.
          Which might not happen, (says the pretzel girl in each of us, who never dies) he might actually just be that awkward and not realising he’s taking up all the air and not realise that he is PHYSICALLY trapping someone to enforce their attention on him. Ok. Still creepy! That’s not what professionally developing someone looks like, and he’s doing her a disservice because she’s attractive; whether consciously or not.

      2. Dasein9*

        Do you know what school the intern is at? Contact their internship coordinator and tell them what you’ve observed.

        If you don’t know, and it’s within your budget, stop by and offer to take her to lunch. Then you can ask.

    2. Policy wonk*

      Invite the intern for a networking coffee or lunch, open the door to discussing the challenges confronting women in the workplace, and give her an opportunity to discuss, ask questions, etc. Be a lifeline.

    3. Quandong*

      Please document what you observe and following up with HR so this is addressed.

      You might like to look into the sexual harassment policy of your organization to see what it’s like, and what processes are involved for reporting harassment. Trapping Intern in her cube is a red flag from my perspective.

      For the day-to-day issue of Glazing Manager Creep blocking Intern’s cube door (!!!!! so not okay!!! see above) I suggest trying a few tactics so you are visible to Intern and making your presence known to GM:

      – get up and go over there with offers to get a glass of water/ cup of tea or coffee / some other thing you are plausibly doing for yourself

      – make contact with her in person, tell her you find GM creepy and ask if she wants you to intervene during the day
      with things like emails and messages that would disrupt GM and give her a reason to get out of the cube

      – establish some new practices of your own that allow for ‘spontaneous’ breaks outside the building / away from the office where you can ask Intern to accompany you.

      I’m sure others will have suggestions to use in the short term. You may also get ideas from searching online for tools designed for managers who need to handle sexual harassment in their workplace.

      1. Quandong*

        I want to add that by following this up, you will also help yourself and any other people who are affected by being a bystander to this harassment. It’s not just the victim who is adversely affected, as you are experiencing.

    4. Marshbilly, not Hillbilly*

      Thank you all for your suggestions – we are planning to have lunch next week. Hopefully, I will have a positive update to share on Friday. :-)

      1. Observer*

        Please do NOT ask her if she is ok with this, or her “permission” to act on this. For one thing, even if she REALLY is ok with this, it is TOTALLY not ok, for the reasons mentioned above, and it needs to be stopped!

        For another, she may not want you to do anything because she’s afraid of being seen as a troublemaker, she’s been told that she needs to “just deal” or similar garbage, she’s concerned about “tattling” etc. None of these are good reasons to not take action, but she’s young and inexperienced (and in the case of bad information, she has no way to know that she’s been given bad information.)

        Lastly, it puts too much of a burden on her. If you “need” her permission whatever happens becomes her “fault”.

        Instead take her out, and let her know that what she’s experiencing is NOT her fault, and that she absolutely does NOT need to find ways to “judge favorably” or “assume good intent”. Also, that you ARE going to reports this, but if she’s worried about blowback, you will make it clear that this was YOUR initiative.

        Keep in mind that what the boss is doing is almost certainly textbook sexual harassment, aside from the hiring issue which is another HUGE red flag. And that if you ever get hit with a lawsuit, the company WILL be liable if nothing is done, and you may also be held personally liable because of your position and the fact that you clearly had to have known about it.

  198. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    Late to the party, but does anyone have any tips on legit, reliable ways to make a bit of money online?

    I’m currently unemployed and things are slow in my field at the moment. I’m taking the opportunity to do some DIY projects and such around the house, but it would be nice to have a bit of extra money. I’ve been looking for a part time job in my area but I would really prefer to have something that I could do from either of two cities. I’ve done some googling but many of the results seem to be places where you don’t really get actual money, but gift cards to particular retailers. I’ve also come across jobs that describe themselves as editing or English tutoring jobs but on further investigation actually seem to be paper mills, which I am not interested in.

    Any tips?

    2. Gaia*

      I’ve done user testing before. You won’t make a ton and it can be pretty hit or miss, but it is ridiculously easy.

      If you’re at all interested in teaching, there are also several online “teach-english-to-kids-in-China” companies that only require a pulse, enthusiasm and an undergrad degree as long as you are a native English speaker. My old coworker made a few hundred a month doing that a few hours each morning. Living on the west coast, I wouldn’t be able to get up the energy that early in the a.m. haha

      1. Venus*

        The only ‘teach english if you have a pulse’ place I know of is Cambly(.com?). I know someone who recommends it, and please know:
        With cambly you do conversations, not teaching, so it’s quite easy. Nothing is scheduled, so just sign on and see who is interested at that moment.
        They pay $12/hr, so less than teaching websites but better than nothing. It’s the one site she recommends for non-teachers and she uses it quite often herself if she wants a bit of extra cash.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Double check places that offer giftcards.

      I signed up for one of those survey places that do giftcards but they also offer a Pay Pal giftcard that deposits into your paypall account, which naturally you transfer to your bank account.

  199. woollysheep*

    Hi all. I work as a contractor for a company that sends me to work at different offices. These offices have set hours and I am expected to comply with them. In addition, my company trained me for the job, gave me the tools I need to do it (laptop, devices etc) Have I been incorrectly classified? Can I exert the right to choose my hours? I’m not entirely sure what my rights are as an independent contractor so if someone could shed some light I would be so grateful!

    1. Auntie Social*

      Why ARE you independent? You use their equipment, their time schedule, you sound like an employee!

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Is the company you work for a placement agency? Or are each of these offices owned and operated by the company?

      Not a lawyer, it just seems like those are good questions to ask.

      1. Woollysheep*

        The company is not a placement agency, and they do not own any of the other offices. Does this make a difference?

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          I think it does, since a contractor via a placement/temp agency could have that stuff written into the contract with the agency (I think). Maybe time to talk with your bosses and an employment lawyer?

          AAM has good scripts that emphasizes the collaborative tone/approach you should use.

          1. Woollysheep*

            Good points, thanks for the suggestion. I’m a pretty recent grad and I’ve been struggling with this for a while.

  200. Siege*

    Just wanted to update on the situation where I was having a hard time getting bathroom breaks. I had documented what had been going on, and my unions were able to take that documentation (and other’s, I think) to management, and things have been much better since. Not perfect, but significantly better! Thanks everyone!

  201. Introvert girl*

    How do you manage anxiety and stress levels at work? I’m trying breathing exercises, but have problems with being a perfectionist and overthinking everything.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Have you tried therapy to get some insight on what’s causing this perfectionism to become detrimental to your mental health? That may help long term!

      Otherwise I just take scheduled breaks, no matter what. I will climb out of the virtual pond that I’m drowning in, work can wait fifteen minutes while I go get a cold drink and take a walk around the building to get my lungs some fresh air. Then I come back and pick up where I left off. This helps reset my brain too if I’m not finding an error I know is embedded somewhere!

      You have to find what helps you “reset” your brain. Which may be leaving the room and thinking about something else for a minute. I talk to myself when I’m walking, so when I leave I can give myself personal chats of “You’re going to be fine, you need to chill, B. This is not worth this stress, things are not as bad as your rude AF brain is making them seem right now.”

    2. dealing with dragons*

      I write down everything I have to do, or use trello to track what is in what stage (like tracking if I need to start something, if I did start it, if I’m waiting on someone else, etc) that way I don’t have to stress trying to remember everything I have to do – it’s in a concrete list that I can chip away.

  202. Teapot Translator*

    I think there’s something wrong with my brain. Or my expectations.
    Two jobs ago, I was in a high-stress environment (not good for me! do not want to go back!) Then, I changed to previous job, which wasn’t a high-stress environment enough (if the first one required me to go 140 per hour, the second one was more 70/h) (kilometres, I’m Canadian). I told myself that I would get used to it; then, I decided I wanted to change (mainly to go specifically in my field before it’s too “late”) and I got new job.
    New job is not fast enough for me. It’s in my field. I expected my brain to be tired at the end of the day, to have a lot of assignments to keep me occupied. Nope.
    You know how you’re faster when you have 20 things to do in an hour than 2 in two hours? That’s how I feel. Why should I go faster, if there’s nothing to do once I’ve done everything? Argh. I will now hate my life for five minutes.

    1. Hmmm*

      Is it possible to look at the processes you are in and see if there is any improvement or missing documentation you could fill? A lot of companies are happy when an employee that is producing consistently on their core functions also provides the documentation on how they perform what they do. This way you have something else to do after you have finished your primary work.

      Also, I hope you have a happy Canada Day!

      1. Teapot Translator*

        Unfortunately, no. I’m too new and the job itself doesn’t lend itself to documentation.
        Long weeeek-eeeeend.

    2. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Not sure if you’re looking for advice or commiseration, so ignore if this isn’t relevant.

      How much stress/work do colleagues at your level seem to have? What about those higher in the organization or who have been there longer? How long have you been at your current job? One possibility is that work will ramp up as you become more experienced and specialized, with the increased expectations that go with that experience.

      1. Teapot Translator*

        They don’t look that stressed. It may be the season, but all stress seems to come from other factors (i.e. not the core duties themselves).

  203. Mrs. Ramsey*

    I work in property management and am responsible for Covenants. Had a resident who had a property he had rented last several years. Property was continual mess, he ignored his violation letters, would only do the bare minimum repairs when he was given a hearing notice to appear before Board for non compliance. Has an excuse for everything. Anyhow his house was on the market, and his neighbor called and said there is a huge paint spill in the street from him.
    Contacted him and told him he had to address it. First comment to me was oh I thought rain would wash it off. Then he was going to power wash it but his water was turned off. Long story but I told he him had to get it addressed. He was going to close off the street and have his father in law do it. Every excuse to not do it because he didn’t have the money. Even his realtor told him. And it was noted on
    his resale inspection report. Anyhow, it needed to be done he wasn’t doing it.
    He is now filing a complaint with my supervisor saying I am badgering him. Well I know from his past actions he would not have done anything about fixing his mess if he wasn’t made too. He thinks it is a matter of spending 100 dollars to reseal a driveway. My boss has my back because she knows what he is like. I admit sometimes I can be a bull in a china shop. I get that maybe I didn’t handle
    everything right and can come across strongly. Any advice for handling a possible
    reprimand from higher ups?I have all my emails and documented conversations.

    1. bunniferous*

      If his house is on the market and the HOA slaps a lien on it it will affect his sale. I feel your frustration. Is his HOA board addressing this-or did I misunderstand and you work for them?

      I personally think you did what you had to do. I do similar things in my job but fortunately I do it on behest of the management company (who answers to the VA).

      1. Mrs. Ramsey*

        We are the onsite property managers. However our corporate office is located about 15 miles away. I am charge of the Covenants. There is no way this would have been addressed if I hadn’t pushed it. He thought the rain would just wash it away originally. Then he came up with excuse after excuse.

  204. KitKat100000*

    Sixth year associate here at a mid-sized firm. Recommendations are as follows as generally follow the prior recommendations:
    1. Talk to HR
    2. Talk to Summer Internship Coordinator
    3. Talk to a partner on the Hiring Committee
    4. Talk to a different partner on the Hiring Committee

    Whatever you do, whomever you talk to – you need to tell someone. If anyone finds out that you knew about this issue and said nothing, you’re going to get in trouble – and it could have very serious consequences for you in the firm. This partner should not be overseeing interns on projects.

  205. Courtney*

    Our administrative staff constantly reminds us of sick time and absenteeism, and how much it costs the company. I’ve taken time when I had sick time, but also had some sick days where I used an hour or two of vacation time that I had. While this is not being written up per se, it has come back to me that my attendance has been a problem. We’ve had meetings where admin has told us all how much it costs to pay for vacation and sick time for the company, and that money doesn’t come from our government contracts but the business. It was my understanding that these things were supposed to be provided, and if you can’t cover them, don’t do business? I’ve only worked freelance before, so I’m confused about the guilt trips over time we have earned.

    1. WellRed*

      Your admin team is being obnoxious. First, by trying to make you feel guilty, second, by even bringing this up. Unless I am misunderstanding what you mean by admin, if there were truly an issue with your attendance, your mgr should address it. To have to be chastised for your COMPENSATION they agreed to pay you is a red flag.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Boohoo to them, yes a workforce costs the business frigging money, no sh*t. It’s cost of doing business and not the staff’s issue. WORK IT INTO THE BUDGET, YOU DOLTS. *flail*

      We expect to pay you 40hrs a week 52 days a year [we pay holidays too, so yeah it’s in there]. So it doesn’t really cost extra to pay you out of sick or PTO pots. Sure it costs to have someone back up at times but that’s a company overhead issue, you need to have more staff and budget for it.

      You should be making the right amount of money from whatever service or product you’re providing to cover your overhead. Welcome to business, Administrative Team Who Sucks And I Will Fight Them.

      These people are the ones who look at you all like cogs in the wheel and numbers, not people with lives, health, family and so on. It’s gross. They are who I hate the most in the entire universe after you know, truly evil murderous people and such.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Your salary costs them money, too, that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t take it. Vacation and sick time are part of your compensation package. Who is saying that your attendance has been a problem, and how is it getting back to you? Is this attitude coming down from management? If you have an admin problem, management can help. If you have a management problem, then your bosses suck, and they are not going to change.

    4. CAA*

      While it’s true that they cannot bill the time you record as vacation or sick to the government, the rate that they charge for the hours you do bill is supposed to be high enough to include indirect costs like fringe, overhead and G&A, as well as profit. All the indirect money they don’t have to spend on costs is also profit. Therefore, you will frequently see small gov’t contractors trying to cut their indirect costs by watching attendance closely and skimping on non-billable positions in depts like HR and finance, so they can keep more of this indirect money.

      Also, it’s common for contractors to allocate a percentage of retained overhead to bonuses, profit sharing, 401K, ESOP plans, etc, so the more they pay out on sick time and other costs during the year, the smaller everybody’s bonus will be at the end of the year. This is not to say that you shouldn’t use your sick time when you need it, just to explain how this works and where some of the pressure is coming from. Due to the way government contracts are funded and negotiated, this is not likely to change any time soon, so you may have to make a decision as to whether this is the right work environment for you.

    5. Batgirl*

      I’ve been in this position before and the most annoying thing about it is that’s it’s just a mindless sort of nagging car alarm. They only say things like “It costs money”, over and over again. They never say anything like “So do x, y and z” or “Hey, if stress or anything avoidable is causing sick leave then do please tell us what we can do”.
      My favourite responses to the car alarm are:
      “Oh is management planning to do something about sick leave prevention? I thought our health and safety policies were ok. I also don’t think stress is causing much of an issue, though I could be wrong. Hmm. What aspect are you planning to tackle?”
      (Wait for baffled response along the lines of ‘nothing’)
      Then say: “OK! Good talk!”
      If they say something like “We don’t want you to use sick leave”; just say, “Well we don’t! Unless we’re too sick to work. Is there anything else I can do in that situation besides a focus on getting well?” They’ll always just say “No”.

  206. Totally Fine - Really*

    I commented last week.

    To summarize: Boss #1 expressed concern – 1 month ago that I seemed depressed. (Also mentioned were my co-workers who think I’m robotic because I keep a fairly flat affect. This is a non-issue at this point.)

    The update:

    Boss #2 also thinks I’m depressed and that something is going on!

    We were going over my annual review, which I had botched the first time (by rating myself lower than she felt I should – majority 2’s out of a 1-to-5 scale) and had to re-do (this time I gave myself mostly 3’s, and two 4’s, which she seemed happy with).

    And she asked in essence what was even going on in that first attempt, and how I seemed depressed, more down lately, unlike myself, and discombobulated (because I forgot to put a due date on some documents I turned in, which I would normally catch beforehand).

    I tried telling her I felt fine (which I do) and am not depressed (which is true), but I suspect she doesn’t believe me. And I get she and Boss #1 are well-meaning, but I really (really!!) am fine.

    Any tips or suggestions for how I can seem less “down” or depressed (other than smiling more, which is what my mom still keeps recommending)?

    1. Close Bracket*

      Smiling more will work. View as akin to getting up and early and wearing trousers–something you wouldn’t ordinarily do, but put up with as the cost of admission to full time employment.

      Ask your boss what she is seeing that makes her think that, and provide some context for it. Then also see what changes you can make in those areas. Again, sometimes we have to do things differently to satisfy work place norms.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It could be your flat tone and lack of smiling but have you always been like that? It’s strange if you’ve always presented that way and theyr’e just picking at it.

      Perhaps more chit-chatty higher toned speaking with get them off your back. You shouldn’t have to and it’s dumb but sometimes if you play into their perception of what “not depressed” looks like to them, it’ll just shut up the rumbles.

      They sound like the type of people who say “Smile more! Nothing can be that bad! You’re alive so you should be ecstatic! Throw exclamation points around! Yay! Sunshine!”

    3. Acornia*

      Maybe consider they have a point? Sometimes it’s harder to see from the inside. If they know you, and have noticed a *change* maybe think about looking into it. Could be mild depression (which doesn’t always manifest as sadness, so you could be depressed even if you don’t feel sad!) or it could be another issue like low thyroid or anemia or something that has made you seem a little different to them.
      I say this as someone who DID notice a change in a family member who said she felt just fine….but wasn’t.

      1. LGC*

        That’s actually another point – TFR’s behavior shows two common symptoms of depression (a lack of self worth and a limited emotional range). This is NOT TO SAY that they are depressed, but this is why their behavior is setting off alarms for their bosses.

      2. Totally Fine - Really*

        The only issue I have is chronic pain, which is well-managed and monitored with monthly appointments.

        Even my family, who I see every day, don’t see me as depressed and haven’t noticed any change in me. I’m a bit too serious, perhaps, which is why my mom tells me to smile more, but I’ve always been too serious.

        And I believe at some point my assurance that I truly, genuinely feel fine should be taken at face value — because otherwise it goes into that icky territory of other people assuming they know how I feel better than I know. I mean, I appreciate their concern, but it does start to feel at some point that I’m not being seen as an adult capable of accurately self-assessing my moods/emotions.

    4. LGC*

      …okay, this is not what you’re looking to hear, but I think your bosses are acting reasonably here. Not correctly (I hope), but reasonably.

      The way I’m reading this, your first self review said that your performance, overall, was less than satisfactory – but your boss thinks that you’re at least satisfactory and possibly good. (We use a similar scale at my job.) If I found out that one of my employees viewed themselves that negatively in comparison to how I viewed them, I’d be concerned – did they actually think I viewed them that harshly? Do they think they need to be a rockstar in order to just stay afloat? Do they actually feel that negatively about themselves?

      I suspect in your case that it’s number 2. So I’d actually go and follow up with that – and make sure that your expectations of your performance are reasonable for your job. You didn’t “botch” your self review, in my opinion, because you were being honest – but examine why you rated yourself so harshly and if that’s indicative of anything.

      1. valentine*

        Your review isn’t a time for stark honesty, if that’s what you feel you did. Think of it like a press release. Or a salary negotiation. You ask for more than what you want, in hopes of landing no lower. If you give yourself 4s and 5s and end up at 4, great. Even 3 might be okay. But they’re right to wonder what’s going on because 1s and 2s should be on their way up (soon!) or out. I don’t know if it would help to say you approached the review as from a witness stand, but you get it now.

        Make notes as you go through the next year so, come review time, you can revisit the way you felt when each success was fresh.

        1. LGC*

          That’s actually really good advice – and approaches it from a more practical perspective! In many ways, a self-review is selling your accomplishments. But in this case, I actually think it’s not the worst thing that TF-R displayed “stark honesty,” since it seems to have at least opened up some lines of communication.

          I am going back and forth on how to answer this, simply because I personally would really like to be aware that an employee thinks they’re not doing well so I could get to the root of the problem. But for all my faults, I’d like to think of myself as a generally compassionate person – and a supervisor/manager who was less compassionate would likely just not question the harsh self-assessment.

          I’ll also note that just as you don’t want to undersell yourself, you don’t want to oversell yourself. If – conversely – an employee was just meeting expectations and they gave themselves a 5 out of 5, I’d…roll my eyes at it and just give them a 3 anyway. It’s a bit like poker – you can definitely bluff, but you’ll often get caught out.

      2. Totally Fine - Really*

        I did discuss the review with my mentor more recently, and had his help in developing a more accurate one that I was able to turn in.

        The review was a headache from the start. You were provided one area to evaluate yourself on, but had to develop your own goals for the rest (3 to 6 goals I think)? And when I think of goals, I think of things I am working toward – not things I’ve achieved (because once you achieve it, it’s no longer a goal). So, much of it was based on my misunderstanding of the review itself, because I then interpreted it as *no one* should have 4’s or 5’s (and even in some cases 3’s).

        You also had to provide justification for any score higher or lower than a 3. And, to complicate matters, my job is reliant on a lot of soft skills that are incredibly difficult to quantify, so measuring “accomplishments” is a Herculean task – but we are supposed to cite accomplishments as justification for 4’s or 5’s. Even in my second attempt, *that* component proved to be tricky, which is why I just settled bumping my scores up to mostly 3’s and two 4’s I felt I could easily argue for (after redoing all my goals).

        As an aside, I do hold myself to a high standard – not because that’s what I feel I have to do to stay afloat (because I could do a lot less and get by just fine) but because holding myself to a high standard is how I can feel proud of my effort/work.

    5. Observer*

      There’s a saying “If three people tell you you’re drunk, go lay down.”

      If both of your boss’ are noticing a change in behavior – and it seems like they are actually picking up on some repetitively small but real items – then that’s something you should take seriously. I actually do NOT think that you should just “smile more” or “be more chit chatty”.

      If there is nothing obvious (to you) that’s changed, talk to someone outside of work whose judgment you trust and ask them to give you an honest assessment. Also, a good checkup covering things like thyroid, vitamin D, iron, etc. is a good idea.

      It could be that they are harping on nothing. But it’s also possible that they are seeing something that you are not seeing (yet), but is actually real.

      1. Totally Fine - Really*

        Medically I’m clear of any deficiencies or thyroid-issues. And I did ask someone who I knew would give me a direct and fair assessment, and even they aren’t seeing anything that would suggest I’m depressed.

        1. Observer*

          Just because they are asking if you are depressed does not mean that that’s what they are actually seeing. So, for your own sake, have that bigger conversation.

  207. Can't Think of a Name*

    Hoping for some advice on applying for a job having bombed the interview previously.

    Last year I was interviewed for a job that I really wanted and know I’m well-qualified for (trust me on this). It’s come up again – how do I apply?

    The interview was quite a disaster: I mis-read the work sample test and completed it very badly; I turned up at the wrong building; and I had poor answers to some of the situational interview questions (not that they seemed particularly relevant to the job, but anyway).

    Another job in the same team came up a couple of months later, I applied again and didn’t get interviewed.

    Now a third job has come up – very similar but in a different team in the same organisation. The people interviewing me would be the same though.

    Question: do I apply, and if so do I address my previous application, and tell them I could do better?

    1. Hmmm*

      Given the timing and previous AAM advice, I would say to hold off on applying to anything at this company for at least a year since you applied to the second posting. Especially because it is the same people who would be interviewing you. It is sucks but we all bomb interviews sometimes. Let this one go for now.

      If you decide to proceed because you ultimately have more information and sense for this situation that I do, please review the AAM archive. I know Alison has covered similar issues in the past.

  208. Imprudence*

    Are there any things that you could do that you are normally too busy for? Like spring cleaning the stationery cupboard and working out the next way to keep it tidy? Or tidy up old filing (paper or electronic) –throwing some out, labelling the rest or scanning and indexing paper documents? Apologies if a lawyer’s office is much more organised than any other office I have ever worked in.

  209. Aj2*

    I’ve been interviewing for jobs this past month (obviously, depending on AAM guide), and I’ve been surprised how many (3, I think) have asked as their closing question “Why are you the best candidate for this job?”

    I was pretty surprised the first time, and I work in evaluations, so I just made a joke about how as an evaluation expert I can tell you I’d need to see the other candidates first before deciding who’s best, and then cobbled together something about my unique qualifications and positive attitude. The other times I just took it as an opportunity to do a closing spiel about what a good fit I am. I assume that’s what they’re going for – just reassurance that you’re interested and see how you fit in. But it’s a weird way to phrase it, right? The could just literally ask for closing remarks.

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      During an HR phone screen I did, that was their last question. I was quite confused and thrown by it. Glad to hear I’m not the only one who thinks it’s a bit odd!

    2. Hmmm*

      Hate this question too but it is common. I normally say about top 3 things that relate back to the position I am hiring for that may make me unique. When interviewing for my current role, I brought up that I had vendor experience and insight where the company is a customer and could apply my insider knowledge to the role.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I was asked this question when I got my current job. I blame the fact my now-boss pulled these questions from another question sheet that someone before him had left around.

      It worked in my favor because I have direct experience in the industry and role, which isn’t standard. Since it’s niche just by the size of it.

  210. Pistachio*

    I’ve been invited to a Skype interview for a position in a different state from where I live. The company advised that they love for candidates to visit the office but can’t provide monetary assistance. Normal?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I find its actually the norm is that assistance isn’t provided. The places that provide it are usually in a place where they have to farm for potential employees from far off lands, so they build bringing people in from far-far away into their recruitment. Otherwise, it’s something that they’d be fine with filling with their local options, why would they increase their recruitment budget, you know?

      Unless you were head hunted, is that the case? I can’t tell by your post. You say you were invited for an interview, did you apply or are they hunting you? If you’ve been reached out to without any acknowledgement that you were interested in the first place or looking at the job, that is pretty presumptuous of them to think you should pay to visit their site.

  211. GuiltyBoss*

    I’ve been good friends with a fellow manager for several years now. Recently, I was promoted and am now her boss. Earlier this week, my boss pulled me aside to inform me he was meeting with one of our subordinates because he’s been leaving work early without permission, and as it’s union, I was asked to sit in to listen. All of this was under strict confidentiality.

    During today’s meeting, the subordinate said he had been leaving early at the instruction of my friend, his manager. She denied it on the spot and will be meeting with the big boss next week. After the meeting, she got mad at me because I didn’t warn her of the situation. She said our friendship is over and that my morals are in the wrong.

    Did I do the wrong thing? I feel like I kept it as professional as possible, but her response makes me feel guilty.

    1. WellRed*

      Nope. Your friend is totally in the wrong here. If she expected to skate by because of your friendship, this would have only been the first. And this is why managers can’t be friends with those they manage.

      2. GuiltyBoss*

        Yeah. I was kind of anticipating this, but I wasn’t expecting it to happen quite so quickly. I assumed she anticipated the change in dynamic as well, but I assumed incorrectly.
        This is going to make things tough going forward, as she’s used to doing whatever she wants with our old boss, cause he was a pushover.

    2. LGC*

      …I mean, what COULD you have done differently? It sounds like you didn’t have all the details in advance, even – and you were just asked to be a witness.

      I don’t think you’re morally wrong, and to be honest I get the feeling that the friendship might not be as dead as she made it sound. (At least, not yet.) That’s because – and let me know if this sounds wrong – I think she was just embarrassed by the situation and lashed out at you because you were the “safe” one. Which is a problem for your work relationship, but I’d be shocked if your friendship ends over this incident by itself.

      1. valentine*

        what COULD you have done differently?
        Warned her so she could properly frame the dude. (If she didn’t do it, the true shock of being accused is a great response.) Given the morals charge, I’d be surprised if she was just lashing out.

        (No need to be) GuiltyBoss, have a real think about her attitude and what kind of stuff she enjoyed getting away with. You may be able to anticipate her future moves.

    3. Observer*

      Well, you learned something important about her – both as an employee but also as a friend. It’s a good thing she ended the “friendship.” Expecting you to breach confidentiality to let her know that this meeting was going to happen is WAAAAY out of line. Expecting you to tell her something you didn’t even know (ie that he was going to say that she told him to) is just ridiculously unreasonable in any case.

  212. Dahlia*

    I’m finishing up my first week at a thrift store (after getting sick my second day, joy). This is my first real retail job.

    My feet huuuuurt. How long does it take to get used to this? And please no one say forever.

    1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I don’t know how long it’ll take your feet to get used to being stood on all day, but the types of shoes, shoe inserts, and socks you wear will make a difference. I have to wear some pretty complicated custom orthotics due to some foot and ankle issues so I don’t have specific recommendations for people with normal feet, but I know that regular shoe inserts are a thing. You also will want to wear the most comfortable shoes you can get away with and can afford. My favorite vaguely work appropriate brand was SAS, but they’re certainly not cheap.

      Also, if you can get away with wearing cushioned hiking socks that may help. They may not work with the dress code where you are, and those kind of socks aren’t cheap, though. In my cheap-shoe-wearing days of yore, I used to have once-weekly evening choir rehearsal and always wore my most cushioned hiking socks on those days to make it through the extra 2-3 hours of standing up.

      1. valentine*

        Maybe you can change the culture so you have barstools at the register and rolling stools for when you’re arranging merch.

    2. Batgirl*

      I did four years of retail. My feet never stopped hurting (my boyfriend disagrees though and says it just took a month or two to acclimate) but I learned how to deal with it so the pain dispersed quite quickly. I would put my legs up the wall, lying on my back to reverse the blood flow, or do some type of yoga inversion. There’s a specific yoga foot exercise where you sit on your heels, on your tucked under toes for foot pain/strength too. Footbaths with peppermint or mustard powder were also quite effective. I was also in the best shape of my life, so there’s that!

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Retail and many other jobs of the factory or warehouse types are hell on the ‘old barking dogs’
      Your feet will hurt forever.

      Get yourself some Ugly Shoes that are comfortable and thickly padded (like sneakers) in about a 1/2 size bigger than your usual size, and then reinforce with the thickest insoles and socks you can find.

      Eventually, it does get a bit better, but good shoes are always a must. Stretching, Advil, and epsom salt soaks can help until you get more used to it until then.

    5. Amethyst*

      You’ll never get used to it. You’ll find things that work to take the edge off for you, but it never goes away.

      Get some awesome nonslip sneakers. Be prepared to replace them VERY frequently. (When I worked retail–grocery stores, I had to replace mine every 3 months because I just kept wearing them out. Inserts only tided me over so far.) Ibuprofen will be your best friend. Baths with epsom salts will, too, after particularly long days.

      My routine after I got home was (in no particular order): gather everything I was gonna need for the next hour or two, place them where I was going to sit, change into my pajamas, close all the windows (if applicable), make sure all the pets were set with everything, get my lunch/supper ready & set down at my chosen spot, & do exactly 100% of everything else I needed to have done before I sat down because I wasn’t gonna get back up unless I needed to use the bathroom or refill a drink.

    6. ..Kat..*

      Knee high compression socks. You want the really good ones (will cost approximately $30 to $35 USD. Worth the money. I wash mine in a lingerie bag and air dry them so mine last a long time. Mine are rated 20-30 mm/Hg compression. Look for words like “medical grade”. I like the Futuro brand. These will also help prevent spider veins and varicose veins. If you live where it is cold, you can get compression stockings (they will look like a pair of tights. Don’t get the ones that only come up to mid/high thigh – they just fall down).

      I recommend a shoe insert that supports your arch and has heel cushioning. I could not find one that did both, so I have an insole that supports my arches and gel heel cushions (I like Dr Scholls).

      Forget about cute ladies shoes – even flats. They just don’t have the support. I prefer a really good pair of walking sneakers.

      I realize that my recommendations are not cheap. But, they will help prevent the misery of long term foot and leg pain when you are older. I wish someone had told me about this when I was younger. I now have constant foot pain and am in my 50s. I am a nurse and spend long hours on my feet on hard floors.

      Congratulations on your new job.

    7. TPS Report Coversheet*

      The third day is the worst, its the same if you’re not used to excersizing and go on a ten mile hike just like that. What others say ”good shoes” as in not giving a flying ptarmigan what they look like, as long as they feel good on your feet. Feelings, not looks. Good arch support is a plus, but I used to work in dress shoes… even they were identical I had my ”favorite pairs”.

      Other thing is if you are standing in one place only you get cramps. You should move and stretch every now and then. Those guys standing like statues on guard have a lot of toe gymnastics going on in them boots, believe you me.

  213. Floof*

    I have a question for any preschool teachers and paraprofessionals:
    Short background: after a stint as a SAHM and a long-term volunteer at my kids’ school, I’ve recently accepted an offer as a part-time preschool aide. My experience with this age is solely in my capacity as a volunteer and, while that’s enough to let me know I LOVE working with these little people, I’d love to know of some good resources before I formally begin my new role.
    My question is: Can you recommend any particularly good websites or books for a newbie who wants the basics for provide excellent teacher support? I know I’ll learn a lot on the job but would like to get started with some solid fundamentals. Thanks for any insights.

    1. Batgirl*

      How to get the Buggers to Behave by Sue Cowley is good and for teachers of early years up to teaching adults. It really brought home to me how humans of any size truly respond in similar ways to similar stimulus. Supernanny isnt really ever recommended in teacher training but I found her invaluable as a beginner because she actually knows how to teach people to be teachers which is RARE. The visual element also helps you get the basics right, such as voice tone and consistency in the face of chaos. Good luck! Exciting :)

  214. Short and Stout*

    I got a text from the Grand-Boss after 5:30PM saying that the teapot designs going out next Friday have to be redone. Then he says that he knew this at noon but waited five hours to tell me because he “didn’t want me to get upset” at having to redo the designs.

    Thing is, having to redo the designs is actually not the problem. What truly upsets me is that (1) the delay means that I now have five fewer hours to redo the designs, and (2) he doesn’t trust me with key information that I need to do my job properly.

    Time to start job-hunting?

    1. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

      This would be incredibly frustrating, and I’ve been in similar situations, though not quite as blatantly on purpose. One of the problems always seems to be that others, even managers higher up within the department, don’t understand the process for something like this. They really think it takes just an hour or two.

      I don’t know that it’s time to hunt, but maybe have a conversation, maybe with your boss, maybe with your grandboss, depending on your relationship with them. “Hey, I’m really okay with redesigns, but it’s not an easy or quick task, so I really do need every possible minute to devote to it. Is there a way we can ensure I’m notified as soon as possible?”

      Also, and I have to ask, do you have a reputation of being irritable or angry with things like this? I totally understand if you do, but now might be a good time to look at how you handle changes, and if you’re not as casual about them as you think you are. This is something I am aware of in myself, and it’s not an easy thing to deal with. It may not be you, but I thought I should mention the possibility.

      1. Short and Stout*

        Yes, I have had a reputation for getting “worked up” over others withholding information from me, which the higher-ups usually address by continuing to withholding information from me.

        They claim that it’s because they don’t want the information to upset me. However, what upsets me is NOT the information itself but the withholding of the information. Even though (or maybe because) I’ve told them this in the past, they keep doing it. Information and withholding of information ARE NOT the same thing, and I wish they’d stop pretending otherwise.

    2. MPA*

      He should have relayed the information anyway, even if he was worried you’d be upset. He should understand in a deadline scenario, the more time there is the better. Is it possible they are just bad at communication and forget and then blame you (because it’s convenient) when they remember?

    3. Drew*

      Translation: “I don’t want you to get upset where I have to deal with it.”

      That’s manipulative bullshirt (and I speak as someone who has ducked my fair share of uncomfortable conversations in my time, but not as a boss). This is a manager who prioritizes his own comfort over your being able to get the job done. Start looking.

  215. ainnnymouse*

    So I worked at a big box store last year. The hours were just too crazy when I was still in school. I ended up quitting one day without giving any notice. Since I have graduated I’m getting interviews, but no offers. I have tried to reapply to this chain online but with no call backs for interviews or anything. This week I saw a big “Were hiring” sign in the store I used to work at. I was thinking about going to the store’s HR office and dropping off my new resume that says I have an associates, and to let them know that I’m no longer in school anymore. And that won’t lead to scheduling problems. Will this be too forward?

    1. Rainy*

      Depending on the policies of the chain, quitting without notice may mean you’re not eligible for rehire. I’d reach out to your prior manager and ask, but if you’ve applied and gotten no callbacks, it may just be that they can’t rehire you.

  216. Professional Merchandiser*

    I am so aggravated!! I tried to post this yesterday in the thread about minimum wage but couldn’t get it to go through for some reason. (This is not why I’m aggravated. It’s just as well it didn’t go through because it was really OT.)
    The reason I’m miffed is, I have been working for my company for seven years and still making the same $12.00 an hour I started out with. I didn’t mind for a while because merchandising companies aren’t known for giving frequent raises, but thought I would have one by at least year 5!! One of my co-workers wrote to HR complaining about the lack of raises, and got a nasty response on the order of you knew the salary when you took the job, so take it or leave it. Plus I found out they hire new workers at $13.00 an hour.
    Another reason I wasn’t too upset about the lack of raises is because they give full-time workers vacation, sick days, personal days, and all national holidays paid off. This is big, because again, merchandising companies don’t all do this. Well, then they started re-classifying me from full-time to part-time. I’ve been through this four times. When they decided that employees are full-time when they work a minimum of 30 hours a week I figured I would be okay because I was working 35. Well, of course they cut my hours. Now I work 28 hours and 30 minutes.
    Then to frost the cake, my boss and I were talking yesterday, and she mentioned that she requested raises for our team and was denied. Talk about morale-destroying!!
    I may just have to see what else is out there. This company obviously doesn’t care about anything but the bottom line nowadays. It wasn’t like that when I first started.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I think it’s time to find a new job.
      This isn’t all that unusual, where companies pay new hires more than existing employees (because they can’t attract any new workers). It’s like mobile phone companies–the best deals go to new customers, not existing ones. It’s a terrible practice.

      1. valentine*

        You can probably find a better-paying job with all the PTO you mention. Don’t view benefits as perks, or low, permanent wages as something to be grateful for if they’re an industry standard. If you want merit raises, find a job that pays them, where your employer doesn’t say it sucks to be you or convinces you their scraps are the best you can hope for.

  217. Alex*

    Well, I got fired from a warehousing job, and I keep applying for jobs and getting rejected. I was expecting a call today from Chipotle, but never got one, so that’s probably a rejection.

    I don’t know what to do, none of the advice I get seems to work.

    2. Grace Less*

      Chin up, and keep thinking strategically. What have you liked about jobs in the past? Where can those skills make a difference for a company?

  218. AnEngineerHasNoName*

    I’m a mid-level engineer working in a manufacturing setting for the first time in my career. There are about 12 engineers and 50 technicians. I am 1 of the 4 women engineers and all technicians are men, not sure if that is relevant or not.
    Engineers are salaried and have an engineering manager; technicians are paid hourly and receive overtime when applicable and report to a different tech manager.
    When I am leading an operation on the floor with 3-5 various technicians I get frustrated that they are dragging their feet so work will need to bleed into Saturday where they get overtime. I dont get paid overtime but have been putting in 50-60 hours per week for the last 3 months, which includes most Saturdays. My non-work life is suffering because of this and it’s hard to hear my 2 year old answer the question “What does mom like to do?” with “WORK”.
    I’ve discussed just this work burnout with my manager and he says this is a temporary surge support type project and there is an end in sight.
    Should I address technician work habits? I feel like a complainer if I talk about how we lose an hour per day because they’re back late from breaks and lunch and that they pack up early for the day if they don’t want to start a step they can’t finish. (When I know where the good stopping points are.) Or that there as many of them that can switch off Saturdays but only one of me.
    I feel like I am respected for my expertise in this product but not for my time. This work culture is killing me. Is this typical in manufacturing?

    1. LGC*

      …someone needs to address this because if they’re losing an hour per day on a team of 50…that’s roughly 12,000 hours a year the techs alone are wasting. (Minus days you’re closed.)

      For what it’s worth, I think that it’s mostly an hourly thing. You know, the old “boss gets a dollar, I get a dime” thing. If they do it more to the women engineers, that’s another issue on top of everything.

      1. valentine*

        it’s hard to hear my 2 year old answer the question “What does mom like to do?” with “WORK”.
        Ouch.

        What if you cut back your hours to 45-50 and/or no Saturdays? (I guess you’re required to be there. Are they wanting to make you work weekends or otherwise hassling you, personally, versus just wanting OT? Do they do this to other engineers?)

        Should I address technician work habits?
        Far from complaining, the points you mention are ways to streamline, so, is there anyone who can authorize you to tell them to speed up and only stop at xyz points?

  219. Bring Hawkeye to the Details*

    Happy news for this first-time poster! My job has been crazy hours, crazy responsibilities, and not enough money in a city whose CoL is climbing monthly. But my perseverance and ability to do my damn job has gotten me promoted and netted an 11% raise. My 2 year anniversary with the company was last week, and my last title and pay bump was less than a year ago.

    The day to day has been a struggle, as I basically have to cover for another department’s negligence and incompetence a lot. This is something I tend not to handle well (I don’t mind the occasional mistake or project slipping through the cracks, but there were small mistakes several times a day, and missing or mishandled projects at least 2 to 3 times a week), but keeping my calm and using tips found here have paid off!

    Best of all, this gives me more standing with the managers in the other department, and a title I can take anywhere in my field, should I ever choose to leave. Plus the congratulations talk given by the grandboss was a balm and a benediction to my stress. It’s alwaya nice to know your work is seen, acknowledged and valued.

  220. too much feedback*

    I’m posting this intentionally late as I just need to say it.

    I had a disastrous internal interview (would have been a promotion, did obviously not get the job) and I’m very disappointed with myself. However, I’ve spoken to the hiring manager, and I’ve had feedback session with HR, and had a feedback session with the team I interviewed with. And guys, there is a thing as too much feedback. All three sessions (totally like 2.5 h?) basically harped on the same and while yeah, I not suited to that sort of job and I realize that and okay I will work on myself, I was so close to tears by the end of the second and actually had to go to the bathroom to have a few minutes to cry by the end of the third. It was really intense and got close to who I am personally rather than just my work and. I get it, please stop. I think my office mate noticed I came back blotchy but he was kind enough not to say anything, which I’m very thankful for.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      That sounds pretty horrible. I think the HR one that maybe incorporated some hiring team feedback would’ve sufficed. Because some people are NOT capable of giving constructive feedback.

      1. too much feedback*

        I’m usually really open to and thankful for feedback, and I accept feedback even if I may not take all of it to heart. In this case I was rather shocked by what the hiring manager told me already, because I had never ever have heard that before about me and then had to hear it twice more in the same week and by the end of it I could only cry. I’m not a cryer at work, usually, but that really got to me.

        So thank you for your kind words, I’m glad for that perspective.

        1. ..Kat..*

          This much feedback is really intense. And when it goes on and on, it is really hard not to feel really bad about yourself. It also sounds like they only told you the bad stuff. Too bad they didn’t tell you the good stuff about you that they liked. Remember, they saw enough value in you that they wanted to interview you.

  221. Lucky in Gov*

    I am a middle manager in a small program team working for a large municipal government. We have a lot of freedom and latitude to develop and implement new ideas. My team are brilliant, eager, and hard working. The portfolio is (as usual) unavoidably large for our team, but we manage to find room for new ideas to expand, while also streamlining existing processes and projects. As a manager, I see my role as being able to remove barriers for my team, help them ideate on new projects, and develop solutions to whatever problems arrive. A few members of the team have great ideas but I’ve noticed that when we check in on them, there is no progress. I’m beginning to suspect that I should be more explicit in discussing “that is a a great idea, how do *you* want to get it done” to create more accountability- I can’t tell if they are waiting for me to give them a project plan, for example. I want to give them the freedom to develop their ideas on their own, and I do not want to be a bottleneck or overly micromanage how they approach their project planning to fit in with the rest of their portfolios- any advice in how to empower my staff to take ownership of their new project ideas, remove barriers in their way, and set them up to accomplish their goals?

    1. Gilmore67*

      Sounds like you are a great manager. You want to let your team do their thing without micromanaging.

      To me, yes it sounds like they may not understand they need to do ” XYZ ” or do not know how to get it started or time frames something to that nature.

      I would suggest stating or asking at the meetings whichever is right at the time…. ” What is it that you are needing to do ” XYZ”? (Or) lets discuss now, how you plan on doing ” XYZ”? ” Lets look a time frame for…..”

      So iron out at the time of the meeting the expectations of ” how to” or time frame or whatever. And it is OK if they don’t at that time have all the info. Just then say.. ” OK , by Friday please me Email your plan … ”

      So this way, you are not just ending it with a hope this stuff just gets done. You are ending it with a an already established path to get whatever needs to get done. They now have to be accountable to what they agreed to.

      Email the info, time frames and whatever else to all for a quick final… ” By Oct 15, we agreed to have ” XYZ” done”. Please let me know if we need to tweak, add time…” Obviously say whatever fits for your needs in the email but you get my point. And offer any help they might need.

      You are still allowing them do to whatever, not telling them what to do, but just giving them a a little structure and accountability of what they said they are going to do.

      Would that work?

      Good luck !!

  222. NPAnonymous*

    Hello everyone! I am ranting more than seeking advice, although if anyone has suggestions I’d be open to hearing them. I am wondering how long one can keep their head in the sand regarding their organizations financials before going crazy. Context: I work for a small (approximately 20 person) non-profit that has major, major financial issues. We are behind on most of our bills anywhere from 6 months to two years. Although I am not privy to the nitty-gritty, I have fielded more than one collections call and know that last month we almost had the electricity turned off. Our current board president is determined to turn things around, but I also know that we are at this point begging board members for major gifts so that we don’t completely go under. The organization is trying to put on a brave front, but the stress trickles down. We are putting on a major exhibition next month that is costing us at least $100,000, anticipating an enormously positive response, but I have no idea how we are going to recoup costs on that. I’ve been trying to leave for some time (that’s an entire letter to Allison by itself), but with no bites yet and and only a small financial cushion, I can’t really afford to just quit. I’m just wondering how much longer I can handle all of this.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      At this point you can’t ignore it.
      I haven’t worked for an nonprofit like that, but I did work at a startup where we didn’t get paid for an entire month! (It was a AAM letter and my first introduction to the site). The bill collectors were calling constantly, vendors left or refused to do work for us, etc. Long story short, eventually I did get paid, but got laid off a month later because the owner couldn’t get more funding. It was an industry where you have to pay money to make money, and owner couldn’t get the money to play.

      Regarding your Big Event: Has this been done in the past? Does it actually bring in tons of donations?
      If this event has been known to bring in a million dollars plus, it may be a unique quirk of this nonprofit and that’s how they fund operations all year. But if this is a new thing, they’ll definitely be in trouble.

      I’d advise that you hang in at work, but just keep looking. It can take several months to find a decent job, so it’s best to keep an active search, even if that sucks your time. Keep applying! Make yourself apply to at least 2-3 jobs every Saturday morning. I was doing this at that startup because I saw the writing on the wall, and I was still unemployed for about 4 months afterwards. Do not wait for it to go under whatever you do.

      1. valentine*

        If you haven’t already, I hope you’ll write that letter to Alison. Maybe it would be a good Thursday Ask the Readers question.

        I can’t tell if you’re saying you’re the one with your head in the sand. I would at least want part-time work in addition to place, because, if payroll’s a priority, it probably can’t be for long.

        1. NPAnonymous*

          Maybe I phrased that badly – I don’t think I have my head completely in the sand, but at the very least work encourages me to not focus too much on the money and more on my job duties. Just, you know, i there’s no money I will have no job. I am definitely going to get that letter to Allison soon, if not this week with the holiday then next week.

      2. NPAnonymous*

        Thanks for your thoughts! In regards to the Big Event: It hasn’t happened before, but we had a similar exhibition that was extremely profitable. We are playing off a very popular musical that is making a tour stop in our city and the hope is that it will give us a huge boost for the rest of the year. But damn object loans are expensive. I don’t want to jinx it, but we’ve never NOT gotten paid, although I’ve heard rumors about times where its been close. I know I definitely have to ramp up the job search, and I did actually just set up an interview (yay!), so the progress is slowly going!

    2. Observer*

      I don’t think your head is in the sand at all.

      Keep looking as actively and aggressively as you can. And, start pinching pennies to give yourself as a big a cushion as you can. Because there is a real possibility that your job will end before your search.

  223. Alex*

    I’m late, but this is really just a vent.

    We were notified of our yearly merit raises this year. Now, I am not at all surprised, because this is the way it is every year, but this year in particular I busted my buns. I blew all of my goals and expectations out of the water. My performance review was glowing with praise.

    My coworker did not hit ANY of his goals, is late all the time, constantly “forgets” to do projects, misses deadlines, etc. He had a long list of “things to improve” on his performance review.

    We both got the same merit raise. I wouldn’t be so annoyed (OK, a little annoyed) but it is explicitly stated that our managers are supposed to give out our raises on a sliding scale according to performance, but my boss NEVER does. She always gives everyone the same. I’m not sure how she gets away with this, because supposedly there is a whole process that the managers need to submit and defend their raise recommendations.

    I just don’t get it. I couldn’t have possibly received a better review. My coworker just scrapes by with the bare minimum so as not to be fired. How can we be seen as the same? How is this supposed to be motivating?

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Are you sure your boss has any choice in this?
      I used to manage a small team and the one year the company mandated that everyone, and I mean everyone got 3% raises whether exceptional or mediocre. I know this sucks, but it happens and it was really hard to explain to my team when some excelled more than others.

      Sometimes this indicates you’re on a sinking ship. I don’t know if this the norm for your company, or a one-time anomaly, but you might want to begin looking for greener grass.

      1. Alex*

        The message from on high is that raises are supposed to be commensurate with performance. They send out an email every year with the “tiers” of possible raises, citing X percent for adequate performance, Y for good, and Z for exceptional. Managers are instructed to assign raise amounts that average out to a certain percentage (ie, the budget for raises), but it is supposed to be different within the teams that they manage–higher percentages to better employees. They then have to submit performance reviews and raise recommendations, which are either approved or not by HR/senior people. There is a lot made about this process and how “transparent” it is, yet somehow, every year, everyone in my department still gets the same, even though, as I said, my coworker totally admitted to me that his performance review was tough and he didn’t meet any of his goals (which wasn’t a surprise, because I sit right next to him and see him goof off all day, talk to him about work that he forgets about, and am aware of his missed deadlines.)

        I’d feel a lot better if it were just more like “Everyone who is good enough to get a raise gets X amount.” At least that would be honest.

    2. Easily Amused*

      I would talk to your manager about it and ask why but I’m pushy and transparent like that. Your co-worked freely told you that they didn’t have a good review and presumably, they told you the amount they got as a raise so it doesn’t sound like you’re dealing with any confidential information.

      Maybe something like “I’m confused about the merit award process. My understanding is that it is a tiered percentage based on our performance. You reviewed my work as exceptional and yet I was awarded the same percentage as everyone else. Can you explain why?” That leaves the Co-worker out of it and depending on her answer, will give you information on whether it makes sense to stay and continue to bust your hump for someone too wishy washy to have your back.

    3. Observer*

      You’ve gotten good responses.

      Find out, if you can, what actually happens in other departments.

      Also, are you two the only ones whose raises are being determined by your boss?

      Lastly, is it possible that demographics are at play here?

  224. Restaurant Manager*

    Not sure if anyone’s on this thread today but I’ve run into a dilemma I could use outside advice.

    Went to a reverse job fair geared towards my industry earlier this week (so candidates had tables and employers cycled around the room and had 5 minutes for a quick chat with each job hunter). It went pretty well and I did happen to find a candidate who would be a great fit for a position here.

    There was one candidate (for a different position) who was absolutely terrible- she was downright rude, unprepared, and kept yawning and looking around the room while I tried to ask her questions and get her to ask me questions. She came by later that afternoon and dropped off an application.

    Well today she called 5 times before I came in and asked when her interview would be.

    Should I call her back and let her know that this just won’t be a good fit? Wait for her to call again and tell her? Tell her the position has been filled? She seemed so uninterested in being at the fair so I’m kind of shocked at her persistence!

    2. Observer*

      Unless calling to find out when her interview is, is standard protocol (somehow I doubt it….) don’t call her.

      If she calls while you are in, do take the call and tell her that you are not going to be moving forward, and please do not call again. Don’t explain – she’s going to try to argue you into giving her an interview. Just repeat that she’s not a match for your needs and get her off the phone – tell her your done and hang up if you need to.

      After that, just don’t take her calls.

  225. Tired*

    my boss is really loud. On top of that I think I have a form of hearing disorder where one ear is really sensitive to sounds- which I’m going to get checked out in its own regard. But what do I do about how loud my boss and some coworkers talk and how it is frazzling me? I sometimes put an ear plug in the sensitive ear! Im also just over the counterproductive venting!! I do think the volume is partly my sensitivity but ALSO its partly them. Like, shouting conversations between offices? not for me. My supervisor and coworkers get so worked up, while standing right over my shoulder. It would be one thing if I was working at a restaurant or coffee shop- relative to the noise as a whole. But I’m in a very quiet office. Let’s say there is an issue from outside that is holding us up. Instead of calmly addressing it, my boss gets loud. And this is all the time. She is a very loud person already, I think she herself has hearing loss, and she orig. comes from another region and dynamic. I have mentioned that the noise gives me a headache, but she seems to not be able to switch it off when she’s worked up. She talks more quietly when she is not worked up, which is rare. The negativity/reactivity is draining as well but I’m over the volume.

    2. Observer*

      When they are right near you, can you ask them to move the discussion elsewhere?

      Also, can you use headphones – with something playing that can help mute the noise but won’t distract you?

  226. Sarah-tonin*

    so for some background, i am a librarian. i have two different jobs, one at the eagleton public library for leslie knope (which i wrote in the comments about a month ago asking how long before i can start applying for other ones but turns out this job is amazing and i’m staying for longer than i thought. i’m looking into moving out of my mom’s house by the fall), the other at pawnee with ron swanson. i’m hoping that none of my coworkers ar pawnee are reading this, cause it might not be super great? anyway, here we go:

    at pawnee, i work in adult services, but we share a desk with youth so we’re all pretty involved with the events and happenings of our patrons. last week, we had an incident where some kids eventually needed to get kicked out, and the police were called (my youth services coworker, april ludgate, ultimately made the call and decision, but i support them. neither of us are managers or even full-time people. no managers were still working.) a few hours later, when we left the library for the night, the kids were standing by the staff cars with baseball bats. police were called again. all was fine, in the end.

    i asked april how it was going today, and she said that her boss donna meagle, the head of youth services) talked to her. donna said that “we can’t speculate anything” and basically i don’t think anything is going to be done, the kids weren’t banned, nothing. so april is now feeling unsupported and doesn’t feel believed (by donna and our library director). i understand that feeling, especially because april took video of the kids with bats and nothing is going to be done. (meanwhile, ron talked to me and heard my side and while he kinda implied we shouldn’t have called the police the first time, he supports me 100%, as usual, and took the baseball bats very seriously.)

    anyway, april is now thinking of eventually quitting, due to other things (namely because she feels unsupported by donna), and this situation doesn’t help. if april does quit, is this lack of support something i should mention to ron, to mention to donna? like, i don’t think anything is going to be done about the baseball bat kids, which honestly makes me a little nervous to come to work. i don’t know how much ron could do about the situation.

    thanks for reading. :)

    1. valentine*

      Tell Ron you don’t feel safe and ask about protocol. Donna can’t speculate that the kids weren’t going to mend the fences by inviting you to play ball? I hope April escapes to safety soon.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        I talked to Donna about this the other day and basically got the same response as April (see my other comment below). So. If she leaves over this, I will not blame her at all. I feel unsupported and Donna isn’t even my boss.

      1. Sarah-tonin*

        Whoops, kinda forgot about ever making this post, my bad!

        still nothing has been done. I talked to April and she still doesn’t feel supported. Then I asked Donna for an update, and she didn’t really have one, while also again saying that we can’t speculate anything, and since Donna wasn’t there that night, she can’t say for sure what they were doing. Apparently she’s talked to one of the kids, who knows that standing by exists as staff are leaving for the night isn’t great. I don’t have an issue with that, but I do have an issue with the baseball bats, and I don’t think that Donna is too concerned about that part? At least she kept talking about the kids just being by the exit when we closed, as if that were the issue, not the baseball bats they held. So now I don’t feel supported either, and she’s not even my boss. I WISH we could hire even a part-time security guard a few nights a week, but that’ll never happen (April asked Donna about that and that’s pretty much what she said). It’s just. I don’t want to have to worry about what’s going to happen when I work the night shift, which is almost always.

        And I meant that Ron implied that is calling the police the first time might have been a bit much, since they were just being kids. I get it, in retrospect, they weren’t like, swearing at us or anything truly bad. He fully supports us calling the police after the baseball bats.

  227. Single Malt*

    I’m hoping for some advice here. I work for a small non profit and we recently hired someone for a short term (6 month) position. I’m new as well – been at the job for a couple of months and have found a lot of…messiness – on operations, finances, programming policies, and so on. So a lot of my job is cleaning up while raising money for the organization that is chronically broke. We have not developed any kind of sustainability.

    So when we hired this person, I was pretty transparent – we’re small, we have some messiness to clean up, but we have an excellent reputation for programs. We need to brand and market ourselves better so that people are aware of our services and this position is a front line position that can help us do that. I also advised I was new, equipment was not fantastic but we were working on it and that we were looking someone familiar with a small non profit where staff need to be flexible and adaptable to not having a lot and not having the ability to just go out and purchase what we need.

    This person swore up and down she was entirely familiar with the non profit world, could roll with the punches, was resourceful and a creative problem solver and her resume and reference checks all bore that out. That being said, she’d been out of the workforce for about 5 years (she’d retired early) and was coming back for a part time position as her partner was now retired and she wanted some time out of the house.

    Since she started a month ago, she has complained endlessly about the tech we have; has proven to not be as savvy with powerpoint as she alluded to (she actually admitted to me in her 2nd week that developing presentations is not her strong suit despite us asking in the interview specifically about developing presentations and her assuring us it was not an issue); does not take direction well; complains about the office not being up to professional standards (the office she visited to do the interview and was in the same state she saw) and that it needs a thorough de-cluttering; and comes to me with issues about the computer or phones only when she needs those things right now and not before when she first identified the issue. There are work arounds which I have advised her off but she’s a bit stubborn. I have done my best to work within the resources we have to address IT, ensure she can access email and so on, spent hours to try to get her oriented or opportunities for training with other staff as quickly and efficiently as possible. but there’s always something else that she needs hand holding with.

    She is, in the month that we’ve had her, been an extremely high maintenance staff member. And that’s over and above being a new hire.

    This long weekend, she raised an issue about her pay which we issue monthly through direct deposit. Friday morning, she emails me to indicate she has not been paid and that we will need to remedy this immediately to meet the stipulations of her contract. I do all the due diligence and checking with our direct deposit agent, our bookkeeper and our bank and speak directly to everyone involved. It’s confirmed we did everything correctly and within the correct timelines and it’s her bank that is holding the funds. We’ve released them appropriately in order to meet payroll timelines with every other banking institution we deal with for all our other employees. She emails me this morning (Sat) to imply a threat of legal action for not meeting our contractual obligations. I apologize for the funds not appearing in her account, again explain that the funds have been paid on time and that it’s her bank that’s holding the funds so we cannot issue a stop payment and re-issue a manual cheque at this point in time. I did say that I would direct her request to the President of the Board to determine if there were other options I hadn’t considered.

    She’s reached out to the community as our new person in the role. And it did take us a while to find her and it’s only a 6 month position (now 5 months). So do we grin and bear it? Do I make the best of this situation as I can and ignore the constant complaining and just continue to explain what we can and can’t do? Or do I cut the strings and deal with damage control and hire our 2nd choice for the role? What would you do?

    1. Blue Eagle*

      Cut the strings, deal with damage control and hire #2. She will be a thorn in your side for the remaining time. The stress of dealing with her over and above the other problems of the not-for-profit would be a non-starter for me. As a wise boss once said – “If you know that someone is not a good fit and you will need to fire them eventually, bite the bullet and fire them immediately so that team morale (and yours) will immediately improve and you can begin to remedy the situation” {sorry, can’t remember who to attribute this to}

      1. valentine*

        Cut the strings, deal with damage control and hire #2.
        After making sure she can PowerPoint.

    2. Pilcrow*

      Being a 6 month position points to this being a special project that you need to get done. What’s best for this project? If she can do what you need, then it’s probably worth keeping her on. If not, then it’s better to get someone else in before you lose any more time.

      I’ve worked with people who always seem to be a walking crisis. It tends to be better to separate from them sooner rather than later, in my experience. Unless she’s some sort of highly specialized genius in the work you need, it’s not worth putting up with the drama.

  228. Rainviewer*

    Hi, long time lurker, first time commenter, and I’m panicking that I somehow lost out on this job for rescheduling the interview that would’ve been today because of a really bad thunderstorm outside. I live near a river which floods all the time, and the rain was coming down in sheets at one point, so I thought it wouldn’t be safe enough to drive over to the interview. I called in and talked to the manager, who was very nice and seemed okay with the whole thing and I thanked him for letting me reschedule. I was feeling okay about my decision, but then I was poking around online and Some Other interview etiquette post/article basically insinuated you should only reschedule an interview if you’re dying, and even then, you should probably try to come in anyway. Which is a little ridiculous to me, but now I’m second-guessing myself really hard.

    1. Single Malt*

      do you really want to work for an organization that wouldn’t be understanding of that kind of situation? as a manager that has had people re-schedule interviews, i would say it always depends on the circumstances. first off, i always appreciate a call BEFORE or email BEFORE the interview to let me know things have gone sideways. i am going to evaluate the kind of reason – family emergency and so on. if i think it’s bull shit (my assessment) then yes, it’s a bad thing to do. however, being honest and upfront and not putting yourself in physical danger is critical and you want to ensure your potential employer would be understanding of that (imho).

      so bottom line – i would certainly accept re-scheduling for good reason. if it’s b/c you overslept, got lost, or whatever, it’s not likely to go well for you. but extenuating circumstances happen to everyone. i think it’s a test of the organization on how they deal with something like that b/c it will obviously happen in future and you want them to be understanding, don’t you? if you do lose the job b/c of this reason despite doing what you could to mitigate and discussing in advance, then you weren’t meant to work for that org and it likely would have been a bad fit long term. good luck!

      1. Delta Delta*

        Also, if it’s a company in the same area where you live, the person there probably also lives locally and knows about areas that flood. This probably all made a lot of sense, given the situation.

      2. Rainviewer*

        Thanks so much! I slept on it and I feel much better this morning, and ultimately I completely agree with you: I don’t wanna work for a company that wants me to risk my safety like that.

    2. Sam Foster*

      As a long time hiring manager, this seems like a reasonable reason to reschedule the interview as long as you shared the specific details.

      However, you need to consider if your has requirements that you won’t be able to meet due to a river that floods all the time. A lot of support, operations, engineering and facilities jobs have requirements that one will be able to serve in an emergency capacity, etc. If you see those questions in the interview or hiring process make sure you know what you are getting in to. :)

      1. Rainviewer*

        That makes a lot of sense. I was applying to a job at a printshop, so it doesn’t apply this time, but that’s really good to know if I ever did apply to a more emergency availability required role!

  229. 653-CXK*

    Some observations:

    1. If I’m not at my desk, it is not OK to put stuff on my desk without letting me know what it is. That is what the inbox on my desk is for. All you need to do it place it there with a note (I have sticky notes on my desk). It’s also OK to have it on my desk and in an email say, “Mr Wilkinson sent me an invoice for the sugar-free Scrumdiddlyumptious bars that didn’t arrive at the corner shop.” Don’t merely stick it on there and hope that I put it to my head like Carnac the magician and understand what it is.

    2. The words “I’m not here to make friends,” even in casual conversation, are seen as hostile, and I can guarantee you won’t last long in any job. Also barking out orders for me to fix things when I’m in the middle of an important item (such as a rush order of Gobstoppers, or solving the Oompa Loompas joyriding on the riverboat) will cause me to go even slower.

    3. The best phone calls I get (I don’t get many of them, maybe 5-10 a day since we’re a small company) are from resolving difficult things, and then getting, “that was a great help rushing us the cases of Runts, thanks so much!” The even better ones are when a person is frustrated, then when you tell them what went wrong, I hear the little light go over their head. “That’s easier for me to order a gross of Nerds than individually. Thanks for telling me!”

    4. To the lady who hung up in my ear this week: when you sent the invoice for the meals-in-a-gum to me, did you ever stop and realize that you’re sending it to a completely different company (one we’re not involved in but has the same name), and that’s why you’re not getting paid? Don’t be nasty to me and others…it often doesn’t work out well. And if it seemed that I was trying to force information on you – I’m only trying to help you get paid with the correct information, nothing more, nothing less. Period.

    5. To a colleague who displayed their utter frustration: I’m sorry that your orders for mini Gobstoppers got lost in a million little pieces, and it frustrates me too. I can understand if you were upset/aggravated/annoyed at me (and even if it you aren’t, I’ve learned not to take it personally) but I’m working on getting this nonsense stopped.

    6. If I were to rate my job on Glassdoor, I’d rate it a 4. I’ve been there three months, and there have been ups and downs. I haven’t learned everything yet, but I seem to be doing great (according to my supervisor and colleagues).

  230. Buu*

    So for the first time my entire dept is working on one project due to the highly experienced Sansa leaving. This means it’s the first time I’m working directly with Jaime. Jamie is a Senior Teapot Designer and I’m a junior. However he’s traditionally been a non management role ( so senior for tech skills), and has made it clear he doesn’t want to manage.

    Recently he came over to my PC told me I could browse the internet when I liked, since he didn’t care as he’s not my boss ( I didn’t ask him if I could??). He’s done a few weird/off-putting things like that, mainly when Lead Teapot Designer Ned is away. I report to Ned but he often has to go to long meetings and can be gone all day, this leaves Jaime as the most Senior person in the room…so people often go to him first even when it’s not his area. He’s already upset he had to take on some of Sansa’s work and can’t differentiate between people asking him about things Sansa did and people asking him because they don’t know who they should be asking.

    Ned’s been traveling this week and we had a big deadline. Ned didn’t get some work done so it fell on Jaime to do as well as he’s been unbearable. I ended up taking on some of the work he should do, because I realized if I didn’t Brandon in another dept would end up shouldering the work. Jaime could have sorted some of this weeks ago, but didn’t because if it doesn’t impact his own workload …he just doesn’t care.

    On Friday, I managed to get the work I took on done, and had some time to wait for feedback for my own work. All day Jaime kept making comments saying ‘since I had nothing to do’ he had more work for me. I pushed back and told him I couldn’t as I’d fell behind on my own work doing his. I also have stuff I do for other departments, which I mention in our daily stand-ups and he seems surprised every-time that he didn’t know I was doing it. He doesn’t really understand my full work-scope because he’s not my boss, if it’s affecting my workload I already mention it in our stand-ups.
    Trouble is management are using Jamie as a stand in for Ned….but he doesn’t know or care about my workload. right as I was leaving Friday I noticed I’d got an e-mail for management scoping me out for three week’s work…and lo and behold a bunch of my tasks are things Jamie should be doing. No sign of my regular work. I suspect while I was in a meeting elsewhere project management did time planning…and asked Jaime about it.

    I plan on bringing this up on Monday but I’m not really sure how to do so. I can’t really directly accuse Jaime of being selfish..but for me either he should step up and think about my workload or he shouldn’t be able to just jump work on me without asking.

    I want to talk to Ned about this too, but I’ve tried to raise Jaimie’s terse behavior before…and he excused it due to stress.

    Any idea how to raise this? and how to deal with Jamie himself ? He seems to want all the management power but none of the responsibilities.

    1. Venus*

      Maybe as asking your boss for “How do you want me to prioritize these different requests / priorities from different people?” If they don’t want to deal with Jamie’s behavior, then there’s not much point in addressing that…

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