open thread – August 16-17, 2019

by Alison Green on August 16, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Bee's Knees*

    Oh my word. Friends.

    I have joked about this before on the AAM open thread, but I’ve decided it’s true. The Hellmouth has moved, and it’s moved here.

    My work is like a circus. But not a normal, fun, accredited one. No. It’s a shady, fly by night kind of circus. Where they still have tigers and stuff, and all the clowns look like criminals, and the people manning the rides look like they could disappear in a puff of smoke at any moment.

    Everyone is so stressed, and I’m trying to manage it with snacks, but we’ve got people working weekends, and they are not happy about it. They’ve worked every Saturday since the week after the 4th of July, and have only had the last two Sundays off. They’re working this Sunday though. Our corporate overlords are trying to make some greatly unwelcome changes.

    It’s not good. And if this one little pompus upstart VP doesn’t come swanning into my office with all these “great ideas” to improve moral, I’m going to hammer him through the concrete floor and into the dirt. Yesterday he comes in at 10:30 and wants lunch for 25 people. At 11. We are in a small town. Most of the places I get us lunch from I give at least 24 hr notice to. Sometimes more. We had lunch at 12. I headed him off today, I just went ahead and called yesterday on the off chance he’d want food today. Bless his heart, he thinks I was able to get a full course Italian meal here in like an hour.

    I still have to tell y’all about when I worked the overnight a couple of weeks ago. Here’s a teaser for you, it involves a creepy marriage proposal. Yay.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Ooooooooooh you had me at criminal clowns.

      I’m so sorry that this is your life! They used to call one of my former jobs a “zoo”, a lot of the passwords were even zoo related, no joke. But it was a fun filled one in my opinion, limited stress, just a lot of temperamental snarkbeasts, where you just didn’t want to stick your hands in the lions mouth, but the lions were clearly marked at least :(

    4. MissDisplaced*

      Why do companies always try to “Improve Morale and Engagement” when all they really need to do is treat their employees better? Give employees fair pay, decent work/life balance, flexibility and respect. It really is that simple.

      1. MarsJenkar*

        Indeed. If you feel the need to resort to gimmicks to improve morale, you’ve got a morale problem that won’t be addressed with said gimmicks. You’re better off figuring out what’s causing the morale problem and addressing *that* directly. Of course, if management *is* the problem, good luck getting it addressed.

      2. Nonny Maus*

        Way back a few years ago, when I still worked food service–we had our CEO show up, doing the ‘tour’ of the local stores. We were in the middle of our lunch-rush when he arrived, so we were all understandably stressed as usual in addition to his visit.

        Apparently we weren’t friendly or smiley enough, so he said something to a manager.

        He stays through tail end of lunch rush. Our manager of course, had passed on that we all weren’t seeming happy enough, to those of us working. CEO spoke to him again right before he left, and asked the manager “why we all seemed even more unhappy?”

        ….Gee, I wonder why?

        I was usually one who did my best to keep morale up of my coworkers, but even I was questioning the idiocy that day.

      3. Bee's Knees*

        This is the same VP who has a knee jerk reaction to everything, and a couple of weeks ago, suggested that we hand out food and drinks on the line. Where food and drinks are not allowed. Well, water is, but not the stuff he was thinking. I thought our quality manager was going to lose his mind.

        1. richard*

          lunch? in 1/2 hour? even just stupid sandwiches and chips wasn’t possible, even in a dense downtown like SF with a place on almost every corner. if we had a house account and they knew how much we spent there, maybe an hour or hour and a half. I could have ordered a stack of pizzas and they’d be hot but even then the timeframe would be similar.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Lunch for 12, sure, if you can handle Panera. Lunch for 25? Yeah, no – 24 hours notice. And I live in the DC metro area.

      5. Antilles*

        I mean, sure it’s simple enough. But stuff like “paying employees better” and “hire more employees to keep work/life balance”, and so on? All that stuff costs money, energy, bureaucratic effort, etc.
        So you end up with ridiculous window dressing solutions like “branded coffee mugs” or “pizza on the last Friday!” or “award certificates” because they’re basically a way to show you’re Doing Something in a very low cost/low effort manner.

          1. Life is Good*

            Yep. We let you wear jeans on Friday……except you have to pay $5 for the privilege so we can make a company “donation” to a charity the big whigs choose.

    5. Dame Judi Brunch*

      You had me at your descriptions of the circuses!
      I’m so sorry you’re dealing with this! It does sound like hell!
      What is it with employers thinking free food will fix all? It does not.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        It really doesn’t. For my part though, that’s the easiest thing that I can do to make the best of a terrible situation. I can’t give them a day off, or make the machines run any better. I can make several grocery store runs (leaving soon for my third of the week, actually) and make sure everyone is at least fed.

        1. Dame Judi Brunch*

          You’re doing your best with what you’re able to do.
          I was referring to employers with the power to grant days off, and make work better in general, instead of just providing food.
          I hope everything gets better for you all soon!

        1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

          Well, every shady circus needs a special flair, so that will be our treat next Friday.

    7. PlatypusOo*

      I’ve had a lot of crazy jobs working with boundaryless loons. I have a lot of funny stories from over the years but the problem is that Crazy becomes the new Normal. That part is way, way not funny.

    8. Emily S.*

      I’m so sorry about this. Obviously, this was not you expected at this job when you started!

      The stress sounds overwhelming.
      Sending positive vibes your way!

    9. gsa*

      Please keep the people on the line safe. I don’t know what y’all do, but it’s top priority in my mind.

    10. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      OH NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

      It sounds like you’re doing your best, and I am so sorry a Hellmouth has opened. If you need a list of new coping strategies just let me know–this is one thing I have legit expertise in.

      1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

        Did you ever start a special blog or something that chronicles all yours? I really wanted to know the rest of the story.

        2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Well, I have a page set up through Blogger, and also a few posts/retellings saved on my laptop, but haven’t posted them yet. I’m trying to get a decent stockpile built up so there’s plenty to read before I start publishing them.

    11. Pam*

      It’s beginning to feeel like we’re on Oprah.

      YOU get to work in a hellmouth!
      YOU get to work in A hellmouth!

      EVERYONE GETS TO WORK IN A HELLMOUTH!!!

          1. Kat in VA*

            Nor I!

            I work in a cat herding palace, except half the floor is covered in sticky tape and the other half has unpredictable rain showers…

            And my boss is the big scary Newfoundland who comes in joyfully barking and slobbering and doesn’t understand why all the cats scatter when they see him!

    12. Midge Maisel*

      This doesn’t sound anything like the Hellmouth. It sounds like a disorganized, stressful place, but the Hellmouth was just beyond comprehension.

  2. Sharkie*

    What are your office traditions when someone is moving on to a new role? It is the last day for one of my coworker’s and my boss doesn’t want to do anything.

      1. Sharkie*

        That’s how it was at my old job, usually a card from the team. There are 6 of us in the office so it just seems weird not to acknowledge it

        1. Nott the Brave*

          In my old office, we didn’t do anything, but the person who was leaving usually sent out a goodbye/keep in touch email on their last day.

    3. AlexandrinaVictoria*

      We’re getting ready to have a potluck as we speak, and have gotten a card we all signed. Too many of these lately. New management = mass exodus.

    4. Ashley*

      It depends on if people liked them. I would go with offering to buy them lunch if you can afford it and want to keep a professional relationship with them.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      Same company, new role? Usually just congratulating the person. At my last workplace, we had people moving into new roles all the time. No parties or lunches. Just a lot of “Congrats!” and well-wishing sentiments.

    6. NYCRedhead*

      Usually nothing. My feeling has always been that your reward is the fact you have a new job. Retirement is different, though.

    7. Fortitude Jones*

      I’ve been taken to lunch when leaving a company, and my last employer also gave me a Starbucks gift card. Nothing fancy.

    8. Alex in Marketing*

      It depends on the office and the relationship you have with your co-workers. When I left my previous job, my boss and our (shared) assistant pretty much said nothing to me and let me leave without saying good bye. One of the other people on my team took me out to lunch during my last week.

      I was a little disappointed in my boss because I thought we were the close, “family-knit” team he branded us as.

    9. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Depended why they were leaving…

      Emigrating or otherwise moving away? Total career change? Retirement? Family career break? – collection with card signed by everyone presented rather excruciatingly in front of everyone, go out for lunch together (everyone buys their own) and possibly drinks after work (ditto).

      Pay rise or promotion at a competitor? – no collection, no card, lunch (buy your own, management noticeably absent), very awkward speech, slink out of building when IT login cuts out.

      Either way, inexpensive lunch (e.g. Chinese buffet or pub).

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          I agree, it’s a weird thing to do for most job changes, but where it’s culturally ingrained and you can afford it then it’s harmless to throw in the cost of a coffee or similar.

    10. CB*

      We’ve recently gotten into a groove where the whole department (~25 employees) is invited to have breakfast tacos at a local shop on the employee’s last day (our university has a requirement that employees must report to work on their last day). The department pays for everyone’s tacos and coffee and everyone spends about an hour having fun and casual conversation. It’s optional and happens at the very beginning of the workday to allow the greatest number of people to attend. We also do a card and small gift/token of appreciation.

    11. Mama Bear*

      Last job we took the team out for lunch or we might do a Happy Hour, depending on the person. If you like this coworker, I’d suggest lunch for the person, even if everyone buys their own and chips in for the honoree.

    12. Mediamaven*

      I think there are a lot of variables. If we have someone who made great contributions to our business we’ll have a great send off. But if someone has been there a short time then we do nothing. We had an employee depart after less than 5 months with us and the team wanted to have a celebration. After all the expense that goes into hiring and the hardships it puts on the company, I had to shut that idea straight down. And I could tell that I was enemy number one for that. So I’m actually going to address it in a staff meeting. So, long story short, it depends on what the person’s contributions are. Anything less and two years doesn’t really deserve anything in my opinion.

    13. kittymommy*

      If they’re leaving the organization as a whole: lunch one day, cake & card on their last day in the office.
      If they’re moving departments: nothing.

    14. Ammonite*

      At my old job, the department went out to lunch with the departing person (department head paid, or close friend of person fought them for the check). At the lunch, the person would be presented with a card signed by everyone and a small gift (something like a coffee mug and chocolate, or a Starbucks card).
      At current job, it depends on the person, how long they’ve been here, and what they want to do. We recently had someone leave after 10 years and held a large, catered, drop-in gathering in the mid-afternoon. She requested this because she worked with people in a lot of different departments so wanted to say goodbye to everyone but didn’t want to impose on their time for a lunch gathering. Another person left after 3 years and we did a small happy hour after work with just our department. The office paid for food, we paid for our drinks and made sure that the departing person didn’t pay for anything. We gave her a card with our well-wishes and a piece of framed artwork for her new office.

      My advice is to take the lead of the departing coworker. If they seem at loose ends, try to do something to help tie things up in a bow- grab lunch with them and a few of their office friends, invite them to coffee in the afternoon, see if they’re interested in an impromptu after work drink. If they seem happy to work and leave as usual their last day without fanfare, let them do that.
      Since they’re leaving today, it’s too late to organize a big gift or anything (and that’s really unnecessary if it’s not your office’s culture), but a card signed by everyone is always a simple but appreciated touch.

        1. Ann Onimous*

          That seems weirdly adversarial… unless of course, the colleague in question is being let go for some awful behavior or something.

    15. Nicki Name*

      To a new role in the same company? None at any job I’ve held.

      To a new job at a completely different company? At some jobs there’s been a farewell lunch, at some not.

    16. Justme, The OG*

      My team is six people. When one of my coworkers left last month we had lunch out and cake.

    17. theletter*

      From a business perspective, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to celebrate attrition. I’ve seen a few retirement parties, or farewell parties for people who’ve been at the company for a significant amount of time, but other than that, it’s almost always up to the coworker’s friends to organize something, usually after work hours.

      1. Not A Morning Person*

        I get that from one perspective it is attrition, but from another perspective it is how people are treated by an organization whether they are coming in or going out. I think it leaves a bad impression when an employee leaves and no one says anything or offers even a congratulations or some kind of small acknowledgement that a person was a valued colleague (assuming they were) and that they and their contribution will be missed. I agree that there doesn’t necessarily need to be a big fanfare, but ignoring it completely would tell me that is not a place that values its people and I’d notice how my colleagues were treated when they left and factor that into my engagement and whether I’d want to continue to work there.

      2. Anon for this*

        Haha, no, at old-old job “natural wastage” (as ‘attrition’ was termed) was celebrated internally by HR as people we don’t need to push out on spurious reasons and pay severance for, and certainly not given any recognition to the actual person at that point.

    18. Jan*

      Depending on the person, something or nothing! Attorneys get a grand going-away farewell lunch or dinner. Staff is usually taken out by their friends (which I would prefer)

    19. Kathleen_A*

      We usually take people out to lunch, and there’s usually a card, and there’s always an email (though, mysteriously, the email doesn’t always say where they’re going, which always seems so odd to me).

      Unless they’re fired, of course – though that’s technically “moving on to a new role,” too, right? :-)

    20. Bagpuss*

      Normally someone who works with the person (not a manager ) will organise a card for anyone who wants to to sign, and may arrange lunch-where everyone pays for themself. Where I work now it’s not normal to have a collection but in a previous workplace there would be a an envelope go round with the card, you would contribute a little and the money would be used to buy a gift and / or flowers
      The employer wouldn’t normally do anything.
      Where someone is retiring, then there will usually be a card and collection, but management would typically give a separate card, flowers and gift.

    21. Kiwiii*

      At the job I just left, we made sure to all get lunch together one time in my notice period (and my sup paid for me) and then my last day someone brought me cupcakes and we had them with chips and salsa. But we were a small all lady human services team and I was 7+ years younger than everyone else and made significantly less than them (associate role while everyone else was coordinator or senior) so they all doted on me a bit and were glad I was moving on.

      At the job before that, I got a card signed by the team, my cube decorated a bit, and a plant and balloon from my sup. Also human services.

      At the job before that, I was mostly given dirty looks besides a couple well-wishes and was scheduled all the way through the weekend before the Monday I went to the new job. They also shorted my last paycheck, but that was retail.

    22. LurkerVA*

      Nada. Departments do stuff sometimes, but most of the time I don’t even know someone’s leaving until they’re gone. There’s never a company announcement.

    23. The curator*

      Last day the person leaving (usually an intern) gets to choose what lunch will be for the whole gang. So far we have had ice cream sundaes, a Japanese feast of sushi and ramen, and pizza and salad. I usually give a book. Ask a manager is my go-to and/or something related to their interests. These are on my dime as the University has no fund for presents and we are not allowed to buy food.

      1. richard*

        lunch? in 1/2 hour? even just stupid sandwiches and chips wasn’t possible, even in a dense downtown like SF with a place on almost every corner. if we had a house account and they knew how much we spent there, maybe an hour or hour and a half. I could have ordered a stack of pizzas and they’d be hot but even then the timeframe would be similar.

    25. Drago Cucina*

      Depends on the reason for leaving, length of time with our organization, etc. Today was someone’s last day. I brought in tacos for everyone. Not fancy, but this person had previously left for another job and came back after three months. Now 18 months later he’s accepted a better paying job with better benefits.

    26. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Has this just never come up before so boss has no idea what to do or as I suspect… is your boss resentful on some level of the person leaving?

    27. Ann Onimous*

      In the vast majority of companies I worked at, the person who was moving on would bring in some snacks and sweets, and then send a thank-you e-mail.

      I had always found the thank-you emails very cheesy, at my first job, so I resolved not to send one. Just said a quick bye to 5 people, literally 10 minutes before leaving on my last day. I later found out that other people had also asked for me, and not been aware I had left. So ever since, I made sure to send an e-mail and bring snacks.

      The only exception I can think of, was at one place where we also bought some small going-away gifts. I’m not entirely sure about other people, but my own gift was very thoughtful. Which actually surprised me, since I was feeling incredibly alone, depressed and all-around burned out, when I left.

  3. Jessen*

    So I officially have ADHD (as opposed to unofficially “I’m pretty sure I have ADHD”).

    Small question here. Names. I have zero memory for names. It usually takes me about 6 weeks of regular contact with a person to remember their name. I’m worried about this being an issue for networking and future stuff, because you can’t say “I talked to, uh, some guy at the event.” How do you remember names of people you’ve only met once or twice? And how do you cover for when you should know someone’s name but don’t?

    1. Nott the Brave*

      I have this issue! One great tool for networking is a spreadsheet listing a person’s name, their contact info, and where/why you met them. I’d also include a date that you last contacted them, so you can remember to reach out occasionally.

      I’m also pretty good at working around using people’s names – and making it clear to people I know that they should introduce themselves.

      1. Jessen*

        Could that be put on your phone somehow maybe? Because I guarantee I won’t remember the names long enough to get to a laptop! That honestly sounds really useful though.

        Now I wonder if I could put together a little thing on my phone that would let me enter that info into an app and then stick it in a spreadsheet elsewhere.

        1. Nott the Brave*

          There is a google sheets app! Or you can stick it in your notes section and try to update it once a week or so.

          1. Jessen*

            Now I really want to try to see if I can make myself a little app or something though. No idea if I actually can or not, but I can’t do anything worse than break my phone trying (and I don’t think I can do that either). And I need a new phone anyway.

        2. Matilda Jefferies*

          Evernote, or a similar note-taking app. You can take a picture of a person’s business card, then add whatever other notes you need about their appearance, where you met them, etc.

          1. Jessen*

            That sounds really handy! I don’t want to rely too much on business cards either, because “business card” translates to “small, easily loseable piece of paper” in my brain. It’s much more reliable for me to not lose my phone.

            1. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

              Can you get a phone case that has the ability to store a few business cards? I have one that has a slide-open compartment on the backside that fits either my ID and credit card or a few business cards. It’s a bit bulkier but very useful. Or forgo the BCs and keep a small list in there. I realize that sounds like a hassle over just entering the info on your phone, but IMO, it’s way faster to open the little compartment for a quick peek rather than navigate through apps on my phone.

              1. Jessen*

                Unfortunately, probably not without replacing my phone. I don’t have one of the major flagship phones, so cases are very limited (I can barely even find them on amazon). I do typically carry and keep track of a purse, so it would probably be better to keep something small in there. I’m not in the habit of wearing business attire that contains pockets, so everything has to go in some form of bag.

                2. GG*

                  You could just take a photo of the business card until such later time that you have a few minutes to enter it into whatever system you wind up using.

                  Also, I am awful at names of real people I meet, but for some reason the names of actors and fictional characters stick in my mind. So a trick I sometimes use is that when I meet someone new I think of an actor/character with the same name… “Nice to meet you Adrienne,” she says as she shakes her hand and looks at her face, meanwhile inside voice is going, “Adrienne, Adrienne.. Oh, Adrienne Barbeau!” Ding! Suddenly my brain does a lot better job remembering that person’s name.

                3. Jessen*

                  Ah, unfortunately actors and fictional characters are bad for me too. Even my own fictional characters.

                  I’m a DM/Storyteller/Gamemaster (whatever system you’re using) and I joke that my players can’t use the classic “find out if an NPC is important by checking if they have a name” strategy on me. Because I can’t remember the names of any of my NPC’s, even the absolutely plot-central ones. In campaigns I wrote.

            2. Married to ADHD*

              Google Keep will allow you to photograph the business card and keep it in your notes. You can set an alarm for follow up to remind you to add it to your spreadsheet at a later date. I recently attended a workshop for how to use Keep to organize my little ADHDlets and Mr. ADHD has benefitted as well.

              1. Sophie Hatter*

                I LOVE keep. I have ADHD. It’s like internet post-it notes! You can’t lose them unless you lose the internet!

        4. 8DaysAWeek*

          I use my Notes app all the time for my neighbors, their kids, and pet’s names. I have the same problem you do but I rarely see certain neighbors so this is helpful big time. Sadly I always remember their pet’s name but never the people….I don’t know what that says :P

        5. BTDT*

          If your phone has a voice assistant you can also speak your note. Sometimes I find that easier than typing. I’ll just duck into a corner real fast, act like I’m on the phone, and say “hey google, make a note that says I met Joe from ABC who blah blah blah”. Of course, this only works if I pay attention to the name in the first place, which sometimes doesn’t happen. But if it’s the first time meeting a person it’s still ok to say at the end “remind me again what your name was”.

        6. LSC*

          If your contacts are giving you business cards, you can try an app such as CamCard, which scans them and adds them to your contacts – there is a “notes” section where you can put the info of when and where you met the person.

    2. Sharkie*

      Hi! I have adhd as well and I make a game out of names. Beth in blue, Tom with the Tie stuff like that. To cover myself when I don’t remember their name is to ask common questions that might jog my memory “how’s work been” ect.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      In terms of recalling people you met at an event, can you ask people for their business cards and then once you’ve left the conversation, write something on the card that will help you remember this person? Like “wore an orange bowtie, we talked about soccer.”

      You can do something similar with people you encounter at your office, where as soon as you done with the conversation, you write a note on your phone or somewhere. “James. Accounting. Helped with expense report.” Just something you can look back at and review to start building some kinda of mental recall about people you meet.

      1. Public Health Nerd*

        This is what I do. A coworker shared that she would dash off to the restroom at networking events and make notes. I was just at a conference and a lot of people were doing it as part of the interaction- but I’ll bet that depends on your field.

        1. Jessen*

          I’m kind of intro level IT right now, but I kind of feel like the more you’re adjacent to tech fields the more being attached to your phone is about expected.

      1. Alice*

        And write on them something to jog your memory. I do that in front of people. They love it — it shows that I actually do care about following up on our chat.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          This is culturally-dependent, though. Writing on business cards in front of the people who gave them to you works really well in American office culture, but will offend people from Japanese office culture.

          That being said, it’s a great method if it works for your networking needs. Writing things down rather than relying on keeping auditory information in my head is key to me remembering stuff generally.

          In a different setting, the thing that got me to regularly remember the names of people I saw once or twice a year at conventions was to start taking really detailed notes of who said what with either names or descriptions attached, then flagging the ones with descriptions as “people I need to learn the names of so I can write them down where I wrote this description in my notes”. It basically gave me a specific list of people to learn names of, and also helped my brain see it as important because I had a specific “reason” to learn the names. In a few years I went from being one of the people who was particularly clueless about names to one of the people more likely to know someone’s name, but it was certainly obvious that I was taking all of those detailed notes so this would come across as weird in some situations. (Due to the type of convention, the general reaction I got was more along the lines of wanting to know if they could have a copy of the notes and various people looking over my shoulder to see if they could help me fill in blanks rather than people being weirded out.)

          If you are going to write yourself any kind of notes about people’s appearance/conversation topics to help jog your memory later, either on business cards or in other notes, make sure that whatever you write down is something that will be flattering or neutral if they happen to see it.

    5. Anonymous Educator*

      For what it’s worth, some of us don’t have ADHD, and we’re also terrible with names. Maybe it’s worse for you, but it’s certainly not uniquely an ADHD problem. I usually just try to say “I’m sorry. This is so embarrassing, but tell me your name again.” It’s always a little awkward, but it’s way more awkward to just pretend as if you remembered that person’s name. Don’t be shouting Mulva after someone in the street.

      1. AndersonDarling*

        I have Asperger and have a hard time recognizing faces, so there isn’t anything to attach a name to. But I recognize voices, oddly enough. I’ve learned to take lots of notes, and to just ask. I’ve never been offended when someone has asked my name, so I figure no one else is wounded when I ask their name.

        1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

          Aphantasic and terrible with faces here, but yeah, voices are fine :) I’ve learned to embrace the power of “I know I know you, but I’m drawing a blank on your name, so sorry!”

          1. Triumphant Fox*

            I have found that it’s helpful if you can give them some detail. “I know that we met at X event. You work with teapot design for Llama wranglers. I’m sorry I’ve forgotten your name.” I find I can remember a lot about who people are, what they do, what their plans are, pets, etc. from a conversation but names are really hard.

        2. wittyrepartee*

          ADHD, but same. I have trouble recognizing faces, and if someone changes their hair it’s likely that I won’t recognize them anymore unless I see them very regularly. Voices and mannerisms are what I pick up on.

      2. Jan*

        True – I don’t have ADHD and am sh*tty at remembering names. Even 10 seconds after they walk away!

      3. Memyselfandi*

        Yes, I have a had time remembering names, especially people out of the context with which I have associated them in my mind. I may recognize them, but not know why nor can I recall the name. I act as if it is a given that no one remembers names, so I always remind people of my name, even if they seem to recognize me. That often prompts them to say their name, or I will tell them they will have to remind me of theirs. Also, at conferences, wear your name tag on your right shoulder. That way, as people go in for a handshake they can scan your information. I hate name tags that require you to look at someone’s midriff in order to see who they are .

        1. Jessen*

          My problem is usually getting the name tag high enough. I’m short and well endowed. It’s hard to position a nametag so it’s not at that awkward “stare at my boob” height. Especially if I’m wearing any sort of sweater or jacket that’s liable to come off during the day (more of a problem if they’re sticker name tags rather than pins).

          That’s all a little irrelevant, but I swear these things were all designed by guys!

    6. Muriel Heslop*

      Working Memory is often a struggle for people with ADHD and you may find some help by researching that.
      Here is how I help my students:

      Make notes in your phone whenever possible.
      Visualization can help.
      Mnemonic devices.
      In a pinch, “It’s so great to see you again!” and find someone who does know their name to help you. Also, I teach my students to be great at introducing people with, “Hey – do you know each other? You should!” and then get the name when they introduce themselves to another person.
      Be nice. People won’t remember that you forgot their name but they will remember if you were friendly and kind.

      Nobody is good at everything and lots of people struggle with remembering names. Don’t be too hard on yourself and do the best you can. Good luck!

    7. AndersonDarling*

      When I have a discussion with someone, I take notes just so I can write the person’s name down. If its the first or second time meeting the person, it’s still acceptable to ask them their name. Then I can go back to the notes and connect the name with the conversation.
      Internally, I will use the hierarchy in Outlook to root out people. If I know the nameless person works in Jane’s department, then I’ll look up Jane, navigate to Jane’s manager, and then see who is on that team. I can usually find the nameless person or at least narrow it down to 2 or 3 names.
      And finally, I’ve come to terms with not remembering names and will suck it up and ask. It’s better to be embarrassed for a minute than be panicked for a week because I can’t figure out who to send an email to.
      This doesn’t help too much when networking and the person disappears after you met them, but it helps for in your office names.

    8. Alice*

      I used to be really embarrassed about this. Now I’ve realized — hey, I forget things sometimes. As long as you’re not forgetting only the women’s names, or only the Hispanic people’s names, I don’t think it’s a big thing. Anyone who glares at me and say, “WE’VE ALREADY MET!!!!!” when I accidentally reintroduce myself is clearly not a person I really want to develop a stronger relationship with. I still say “please forgive me, thanks for reminding me” when someone says “actually, we’ve already met” — but I don’t feel guilty about it.

      1. Jessen*

        That’s fair. I think I’m less concerned about the awkwardness and more about being able to follow up. For example, if I want to email Janice Downing who works in the Pokemon Teapot department and who I talked to at the Little Monsters Convention, I’m going to have a very hard time of it if I can’t remember her name.

      2. Matilda Jefferies*

        Yes! And you can almost always say “I’m so sorry, I’ve forgotten your name,” and re-introduce yourself. I say “almost” because there’s a limit to how many times you can say that to the same person! But you can usually get away with it at least a couple of times, especially if you only see them once a year or so.

        This is a totally normal thing that happens to lots of people, so try not to worry too much about it. As long as you’re pleasant and polite, most people won’t even notice or care.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          Especially if you obviously remember everything but the name – “I’m horrible with names, I’m so sorry, but you remember we met at the United Teapots event in St Louis in April where you told me about your double spout idea – how’s that progressing?”

        2. Teresa*

          I had someone that was working on a project with me introduce himself 12 times! I broke down and got a “Hi, my name is” name tag sticker. It worked.

          1. WantonSeedStitch*

            My husband has joked that he wants to have a name tag for events that says “Hi, my name is Mr. SeedStitch. I forgot yours again.”

      3. Newington*

        Yeah, I’ve learned to say “I’m sorry, I’m bad with names. What’s your name?” in a friendly tone without showing embarrassment. Nobody’s been offended yet, as far as I can tell.

    9. JanetM*

      I don’t have ADHD, but I’m awful with names. I’ve become very good at, “Hi, I’m sure we’ve met but I’ve lost your name. I’m Janet!” while putting out my hand to shake. Or hoping for name tags; I remember names better when I see them.

    10. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I think this is slightly culture dependent – I’ve found Americans much more assertive about giving, asking for and correcting names than British people.

      I am terrible with names but I’m open about it and will ask to be reminded at the end of a conversation, jot it down, yes business cards, etc. I sometimes fall back on the fact that I have to read lips, as people are happier to repeat a name you might reasonably have missed!

      I find it much easier to remember a name written with a face, so a quick check of their website or LinkedIn (or Facebook if social) reinforces the name with the face for me afterwards.

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          In that case I think you can be proactive/assertive about asking again. Keep the underlying attitude obviously “names are important so I want to get yours right and am working hard to manage that even though I find it difficult” rather than “I wasn’t listening because I don’t care” and I think you’ll be great.

          1. Jessen*

            Thanks – I think I’ve been doing this subconsciously a bit.

            Incidentally, after I posted this, I went to get some coffee and was talking to a coworker who said something like “I keep talking to you but I don’t recall your name?” I’ve been here for 10 months, although we don’t actually work together directly, but we’re in pretty much the same room.

      2. Newington*

        oh heck yeah, every British person knows at least one person who calls them Robert because they misheard their name when they were introduced six years ago and it’s never seemed like a good moment to correct them

        1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

          “At this point honestly it’s easier to change my name to Robert by deed poll rather than tell the accountant it’s actually Robin.”

        2. Windchime*

          Not a work situation but I have a somewhat spacey sister who called her neighbors Trish and Jim for nearly a year before “Trish” corrected her and said that their names were actually Stacy and Roger.

    11. OnlySortaOrgd*

      to expand on collecting business cards — take a photo of the card with your phone. There are some business card apps out there even (I honestly cant think of one off hand, but I know they at used used to be A Thing. There are some good scanning apps too if you want to convert to a PDF). Keep a google doc or spread sheet with them. If you don’t have a card, a photo of a flyer or quickly writing their name in said doc helps.

      I’m honestly also pretty open about taking photos of cards/flyers. “Can I snap a photo of your contact info really quick so I have it for later! It’s been great talking with you and I’d love to follow up”, etc.

      1. Jessen*

        I was just thinking this! I have a generic scanner app already (works well for receipts). One of the other ADHD things is trying to minimize the amount of paper, because paper is easy to lose.

        1. Quinalla*

          Yes, no issue using this. Either right there with the person (really, who will be offended at you carefully storing their info?) or just after the conversation. I also use linkedin or company websites as I am much better with faces than names to find people if I can’t remember their name, but do remember their company.

          I tend to just write on business cards myself, this is very common in the States. Maybe get a special container for your collected business cards? I have one in my purse so that I don’t use them and tend to go through it the next day and add contacts to either outlook or spreadsheets as appropriate.

    12. Newington*

      Congratulations on getting it made official! I’m still at the “pretty sure” stage.
      I sometimes draw people and write their names down on a bit of paper on my desk, but it’s not infallible and could be a bit embarrassing if seen. I spent my first two months in this job convinced that two of my colleagues had names completely different from what they actually are, and after another six months their names still fall out of my head regularly.

      1. Jessen*

        There will be a rant about the process of making it official in the weekend thread. It’s a bit off topic for this one.

    13. NicoleK*

      I will ask for their business card and write the date and place I met the individual on the back of the card.

    14. EH*

      I’m bad with names, and have gotten more and more proactive about it as I age. There’s nothing as embarrassing as knowing someone for a couple years and not remembering their name (which I did a lot whenI was taking martial arts and only saw people in class). When I meet someone for the first time, I try to call them by name at least a couple times during the conversation, and definitely near the end of the conversation. Sometimes I even hold my fingers up like a picture frame centered on their face and say their name. If I keep my tone light, people tend to find it amusing, as far as I can tell. :)

      That helps me a lot, but I’ve also found that people are rarely offended by me forgetting their name, especially if I just say early on, “I am so sorry, I can’t for the life of me remember your name,” then I use the first-time tricks. I also listen sharply for when other people call folks by name and repeat it silently to myself a few times.

    15. Llellayena*

      Most people respond well to “I’m sorry, I’m bad with names.” It’s a common enough problem not to be weird. And some people are exceptionally bad: my mom had to make an ultimatum to my dad that “If you don’t use my name at the altar, I won’t marry you!”

    16. Kiwiii*

      I’m in the same boat! Even if I can’t remember a name, I try and remember ONE THING about each person I meet, so that if I meet them again I will already have the one thing to connect to them. It’s not usually their name, sometimes it’s their company or what they’re doing that weekend or a project upcoming, but sometimes it’s their name, and after meeting them a couple times it gets easier to add their name to the pile of stuff I know about them.

      Side note, at the job I just started there’s a guy who is technically on a different team but he comes to our meetings sometimes since he Used to be on my supervisor’s team and has kept a couple duties until I can be trained into them (small businesses, man). Definitely called him Jeff the first several days (not to him, but to other people) and was corrected to much amusement by a senior coworker yesterday, letting me know his name was, in fact, Ben.

      1. Windchime*

        Yeah, there is a woman on my floor that I always thought of in my head as Rita but her name is actually Laura. Not sure how I got that wrong for so long! (There is a Rita, but she looks nothing like Laura and she works in a different building).

    17. Daisy Avalin*

      I have this same problem as does my dad, with names of things as well as people. We call it the ‘if it’s not relevant right now, it’s not remembered syndrome’!

      Most commonly I find it with my sister’s kids who I see once a year on average. The problem is that my sister has a step-daughter with kids a year younger than each of my nieblings, and keeping track of which child belongs to each family (since I see them all at the same time) is difficult for me. I get round it by calling them all ‘Child’ including my daughter when she’s with them, and otherwise treating them all like they’re my favourite niebling! They don’t seem to mind, they seem to see it as my quirk!

      1. Lilysparrow*

        I also have the thing where I can “know” something perfectly well, but it can’t get from storage to my mouth in time.

        Which is why all children, including my own, are “sweetie”, “honey,” “babe,” “buddy,” “bunny,” or “noodle.” Or occasionally, “You there,” “that one,” or “the other one.”

        It’s at least partially genetic, as my grandfather apparently had an aunt called “Aunt Sister.” Her actual name was lost to oral history two generations ago. It’s written down somewhere.

    18. Coverage Associate*

      At a lot of the networking events I attend, people send LinkedIn connection requests from their phones while still talking to each other.

      Comforting story: I had a meeting Monday. I thought it was the first time meeting this woman. On Monday, so did she. But I guess when she entered her notes, she found we had actually met a couple of years ago. So we both forgot having met.

    19. Mayflower*

      What you want is a “personal CRM”. Beside names, a good CRM system can help you set reminders to follow up, track email history, integrate with your calendar, and so on. If you live on your Gmail get one that integrates with it, otherwise get one that has the best mobile app.

      As far as covering for when you forgot someone’s name – don’t! Just re-introduce yourself and wait for them to reciprocate, which they always do. Something like: “Hi, I am Jessen. We’ve met at event X!”, then wait for them to say their name so the two of you can laugh about how both your heads are a sieve. Human memory is tied to places – hence the Memory Palace technique – so this works for literally everybody, ADHD or not.

    20. OhBehave*

      Always ask for a business card. You can jot details on it once they’ve walked away. Or a quick note in your phone.

    21. Lilysparrow*

      99 times out of 100, it’s perfectly fine to say, “You’ll have to bear with me, I’m terrible with names. We met at the (thing), I’m (my name)”

      In some contexts I’ll even say, “Please bear with me, I have a brain thing and have trouble with names.” Most people will accept that, and not get wierd about it as long as you aren’t weird.

      One really good thing about getting into your 40’s is that more and more people have either dealt with, or worked closely with someone who has “a brain thing” of one kind or another – whether that’s chemo, or an injury, or a neurological something. It’s far more common than you realize until you start being transparent about your own.

      You’ll be surprised how many people are in the same boat with names, even neurotypicals. As long as you’re nice about it, it’s okay.

      In situations where I know that wouldn’t fly, I just don’t say it. “Oh, hey, good to see you! What have you been up to since (thing)?”

      And then the best luck is when someone walks up whose name you do remember, and you can say, “Oh, do you know Betsey Smitherton?”

      And then the mystery person will introduce themselves to Betsey, and you can add some detail that you do know about the mystery person whose name you now have. “Emmanuel did a wonderful presentation on colored glazes at the Stoneware Symposium.”

  4. Sunflower*

    Can someone recommend a tablet/surface for job searching/applying for jobs?

    Not sure if any tablets have the capability to edit word docs/PDF’s(it’s been a while since I looked for one) and drag and drop files. I can get a refurbished basic laptop if need be but it would be great to find a tablet that does this!

    1. Colette*

      There is a Word app that you can put on tablets – I have it on my iPad – and it works fine. I use OneDrive for external storage, and can attach files to email from there. If I were doing a lot of typing I’d use my external keyboard, though.

    2. wingmaster*

      I recently got the Samsung Galaxy Tab S4. I use it primarily to draw, but I do have the the Microsoft Apps (Word, Excel, Skype, PowerPoint). I also have a portable keyboard that I can connect via Bluetooth.

    3. Ranon*

      A chrome book might do the trick if you’re open to using Google docs (or office online)- you can find deals on swappa and they’re generally pretty inexpensive.

      1. lemon*

        Second this. Love Chromebooks. You can get a convertible one (I have the Acer R11) that flips into a tablet. Battery life is excellent, and it’s lightweight and easy to carry around in a backpack or purse. You can also run Android apps, so you can download the MS Word app if Google Docs isn’t your thing.

      2. hamburke*

        I was also coming here to say this – my kids use them for school and they are pretty powerful and durable (if they’re giving them to middle and high school kids, they need to be!). There’s some good ones out there new for $150ish and refurbished for under $100.

      2. noahwynn*

        +1, my last company had these and they were great. They were nice and portable but could also run all the Windows apps.

    5. Keener*

      I have a Microsoft Surface (about 4 years old now). It runs full Windows 10 so there is no issue with installing the full Office suite, or editing PDF’s etc. I got it since majority of the time I want a tablet like device for using on the sofa but I also need the capabilities of a laptop.

      1. LunaLena*

        Same here, I have a Surface Pro 3 with Windows 10 and have not only MS Office on it, but the full Adobe Creative Suite (not the Cloud, though, since I refuse to pay for a subscription). I got it because I prefer a laptop over a tablet, but also wanted to be able to draw directly on it with the stylus. The keyboard and kickstand work great, and it’s much more portable than my old Apple laptop. It only has one USB port, though, so I have a little multi-pronged USB plug-in for when I need to plug in an external hard drive, external DVD-rom, USB drive, and/or mouse at the same time.

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      My work gave us 2-in-1 Dell laptops with detachable keyboards that work as Windows 10 tablets as well as laptops. They run Windows 10, so definitely work to edit work docs and such.

      I admit that I’m not thrilled with them, but I’m a grumpy “give me the command line, a pile of keyboard shortcuts, and a million configuration options” Linux user by choice so I’m not really the target market for a tablet.

      At my desk at work, I have it hooked up to a docking station with a real keyboard and multiple monitors, so the form factor doesn’t really matter (I’d still rather be using Linux, but that’s not the hill to die on for my job). On the go, I am not a fan of the little kickstand flap that comes out of the back of the top/tablet part of the device to hold it open while typing, because it’s harder to use it as a laptop on your actual lap than it was with a more traditional laptop. (It needs a flat surface for stability to type on the keyboard since you can’t just hang on to the free-hinged keyboard part while typing to keep it open.) People who actually appreciate non-typing ways of input (there is an on-screen keyboard similar to a phone keyboard available in tablet mode) probably would be less annoyed by this and just use it as a tablet in those situations, though. (I’m trying to get used to it, but typing is so very much faster, and I use keyboard shortcuts all the time.)

    7. ManageHer*

      I use an iPad Pro 12 inch as my main machine at home, and it was great for my recent job search. The Word and Excel apps are about as robust as their online versions, and I used Google Docs to save files. There’s a software update coming this fall that will make iPad Pro even more laptop-like.

      If your job searching in a field that uses encrypted email or requires NDAs as part of the search, though, you’ll want to stick to a laptop – document signature programs and email encryption often don’t work on tablets.

    8. Nesprin*

      Surface Pro! I love mine as its a laptop pretending to be a tablet and has a keyboard that can be detached.

    9. yeine*

      i have a surface go that i love a lot! it’s a 10″ touchpad screen and the keyboard is suprisingly nice at a pretty reasonable cost. just make sure you commit to the keyboard – the onscreen keyboard is awful.

  5. Mimmy*

    Quick question: How do you answer “How do you like your job” when you don’t really like it but can’t really justify your reasons for not liking it? Especially when the question is asked by coworkers or is asked by someone else in front of coworkers?

    I don’t *hate* my job but I don’t love it either and I am taking steps to move on. I’m an instructor for people with a certain disability; my students love my class and I enjoy interacting with them. However, it can be a little boring and I’m ready for something more substantial. Also, there’s just a lot of BS that make me (and my fellow instructors) want to tear our hair out sometimes. But from reading here, I know there are people with worse job environments than me. So it’s hard to justify why I have days when I want to quit right then and there.

    Yesterday, my supervisor and I were chatting with a third person and the third person asked if we liked our jobs. My supervisor said yes; me…. well…. I focused on the positive aspects but I couldn’t come right out and say that I wanted to move on in front of my supervisor (although she knows of my careers goals).

    1. SomebodyElse*

      This is one of those times where it’s perfectly fine to lie.

      3rd Person: Oh.. you guys are paperclip sorters? How do you like it?
      Sup: Yes, it’s the only job I’ve ever wanted to do
      Mimmy: Oh yes it’s exciting when I get to sort the big ones, it’s the challenge that I like the best

    2. Middle School Teacher*

      I used to say “eh, it pays the bills” (back when I had a job I was meh about).

      1. Donkey Hotey*

        I once heard “It pays the mortgage” referred to as “the Yuppie Nuremberg defense.”

        That said, my current job pays the mortgage.

    3. Catsaber*

      Focusing on positive aspects is a perfectly good way to answer that question. And you don’t need to have a “justifiable” reason for not liking it…sometimes a job is just no longer a good fit for your life or priorities, and it’s totally fine to move on, even if it sounds like there’s nothing really that bad about it. When people ask me this question, I’ll say something chipper like, “I love the students!” and then get them to talk about their jobs, so the focus isn’t on me.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        + 1

        This doesn’t have to be an emotionally fraught question. Just say what you do like about the job when you get asked this question, and then you don’t have to say you love the job overall.

      2. MarsJenkar*

        Indeed. I’ve seen a few responses in the thread that suggest outright lying, but some people (myself included) are actually wired in such a way that such a bald-faced lie cannot be delivered effectively (or in my case, *at all*). Focusing on positive aspects of a job, then redirecting to the other person, is a much better solution.

    4. Anonymous Educator*

      I think if your supervisor is present, it’s perfectly okay (almost necessary for survival) to lie and say you like it. But if it’s just in a social situation outside of work, you can just say “There are things I like, and things I don’t like—you know, like in most jobs.”

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      I’m a teacher and when people ask me if I like my job I usually reply with, “I love my kids! They’re great!” No one wants to hear that bureaucracy sucks, parents can be annoying and I’m frustrated by the aging building in which I work. I try to be positive when I can be. Good luck!

      1. Quill*

        I wish you good luck in teaching and a complete lack of classroom squirrels. (My mom also taught in an aging building, and…. yeah. Wildlife likes where children are, because children have snacks.)

        1. Middle School Teacher*

          Teachers have snacks too :) I like to shake my grade 8s down for Halloween candy haha

          1. Quill*

            Oh yes, but there’s nothing like discovering that a fifth grader left a bannana in their desk over a long weekend and that the squirrel that fell out of the attic wants it. :)

            1. Middle School Teacher*

              Fair enough! We’ve only been plagued by mice so far but our building is over 60 years old now so I figure it’s only a matter of time!

              1. Quill*

                My mom got shanghaied to squirrel wrangle by the extremely desperate facilities manager to deal with said squirrel.

                “You teach science – I need you to chase it so I can drop a basket over it.”

                I think they both would have preferred mice, which my high school had in abundant supply.

                2. Nonny Maus*

                  Your poor mom! And that reasoning…just. “here you do this vaguely adjacent thing?”

                  If it was a chase, wouldn’t Phys Ed be more appropriate? :D

                3. Quill*

                  Unfortunately, Nonny Maus, they were short a PE teacher at the time and their choices really did narrow down to “the two people most likely to have had their tetanus shots”

                  Fortunately my mom and the facilities manager are great friends, so post squirrel this has become a favorite story of theirs. :)

        2. Anono-me*

          When it comes to deteriorating and antiquated infrastructure issues, the best solution is a VIP volunteer who asks questions.

          Friend of mine taught in smaller town public school that had been built in the forties and never properly updated (except for the administrative offices of course). Then one of the VIP mothers started volunteering and asking questions. (What is this black stuff coming out of the heat vent? Why is the ceiling in the art room always wet? What are you doing about the asbestos when you fix the art room ceiling? Etc.) There is now a new school building.

    6. College Career Counselor*

      I think you handled it well. Assuming you’re not in an environment where you can speak freely (ie, in public or with your boss/someone else that you’d rather not complain in front of), you focus on the parts of the job that give you satisfaction or joy or that align with your skills/passion. It may not feel as complete or authentic to YOU, but if it’s accurate (as far as it goes), then I think it’s fine. If someone asks you to discuss something you don’t like, then you can either deflect (“nothing comes to mind at the moment”) or couch your response in generalities (“well, bureaucracy can be challenging at times in any organization!”).

      I don’t think you owe random/general 3rd party interlocutors complete transparency about your thoughts regarding the workplace and/or your future plans, especially if it’s not to your advantage to disclose that information.

    7. NJBi*

      I’m in a similar boat in terms of like, there’s nothing particularly wrong with my job, but I’m ready to move on. I usually say something along the lines of, “Oh, can’t complain, [insert specific thing I’m excited about/like a lot, even if it’s only 20% of my whole job/day-to-day].” No global/360 analysis at all. Keeps the tone light and gives me something I can genuinely enthuse about (since I’m not going to genuinely enthuse about my whole job).

      It works a little differently in my situation since I’m in an academic setting where we’re all kind of expected to leave to go to grad school after 1-3 years of service, and everyone knows each other’s timelines for how quickly we expect to move on (like, everyone knows Coworker and I are applying this cycle and so expect to be gone in a year).

    8. Gidget*

      Such a good question. I got asked this so many times in the past few weeks by my big boss. I just answered by being like, “I really enjoy X.” But I literally hate every other aspect of this job. It feels strangely dishonest to answer with a positive when the percentage of what you like in your job is so far outweighed by the percentage of things you dislike and you are trying to figure out how to get out.

    10. Falling Diphthong*

      “I appreciate the chance to X.”

      As Somebody Else says, it doesn’t even need to be true, just something people might generically like. But often there’s something–in your case, you can use X = work with students.

    11. QCI*

      Just because other people have it worse doesn’t mean you have to be grateful or should suffer through your own situation. Just because someone else is starving doesn’t mean I’m going to eat peas.
      Depends how honest you want to be, but I wouldn’t pretend to like it.

    12. London Calling*

      ‘Do you enjoy your job?’ is a question in our appraisals. I have a mid year one coming up and haven’t yet come up with a diplomatic way of saying what’s to enjoy in a job where colleagues treat you like an admin there to do their jobs for them and the department seems to be made up of women with the emotional maturity of 12 year olds squabbling over who is who’s bestie for ever and ever.

    13. Kes*

      I would just say it has its pluses and minuses, like any job (and if they ask or you want you can touch on some of these). I feel like this is pretty universally true so as long as your supervisor is reasonable it’s hardly a controversial thing to say.

    14. Kiwiii*

      I pick a thing I do that interests me in particular about the work I do (even if I hate that thing sometimes or hate the rest of it) and focus on telling them about that thing. People tend not to notice if you don’t actually answer your question and usually want to know that you like some part of it.

    15. hamburke*

      Justifying staying b/c “it could be worse” is marginalizing your feelings and current situation.

      I currently like my job but I didn’t like my last job. However, when asked directly, I always said that there were aspects that I really enjoy but like every other job, there are parts of it that I don’t really enjoy, but on the whole there’s more good than bad.

  6. CMart*

    Any small business owners (or general managers of small businesses) here?

    How do you deal with difficult customers or clients? Partly on a practical level, but I’m asking more on a personal/existential level.

    My husband and I own (and he runs) a qualitative service based business, let’s say Kitten Training. Business is good, lots of happy kitten owners and well-trained kittens but there always seems to be someone popping up with unreasonable expectations who then threatens to Go To The Internet if they are in any way dissatisfied.

    But, you know, while it’s certainly possible that your kitten could learn to ride a wee tricycle while balancing a goldfish on their nose on command, and we’ve had one Tabby and one Calico in the past do so successfully! we certainly don’t guarantee that and those were truly exceptional kittens who put in a lot of work. And yet there is chronically one kitten owner who signs up for training who very aggressively expresses their disappointment when their kitten has “merely” mastered tap dancing (which is still quite extraordinary).

    We’re only in our first year of ownership (bought the business pre-established from the prior owner after working there for several years) and it’s just terrifying to worry if this is the irrational kitten owner who will somehow bring the whole thing crashing down if they’re persistent enough. We rely on word of mouth and people being happy about how their kittens act after they leave us so the “I will RUIN you if you fail me” customers are so stressful, now that it’s our livelihood and reputation on the line.

    1. MOAS*

      Ok the image of kittens tap dancing is amazing.

      Not a small biz but my company that I work for does have a social media presence. One thing we do is encourage happy clients to leave good reviews. and of course internally, train staff to make sure there are less and less chances of unhappy clients.

      1. Heat's Kitchen*

        I was coming to recommend the social media presence as well. Maybe do a FB contest or give a free gift (like a keychain) if they leave a review and show it to you. Super happy customers and super upset customers are going to be the ones to leave reviews without you prompting. And you’re never going to have only happy customers. People get upset. Sometimes they’re unreasonable. Try to learn from why they’re unhappy, but otherwise don’t dwell on it and don’t engage.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      In your advertising, can you spell out what ‘typical’ training results are? And then put in a handy disclaimer that all kittens are unique and results may vary?

      Then if they pull the ‘I’ll tell the internet’ you could at least point to that information on your website or materials.

      Honestly though I wouldn’t give it too much thought. If anything I read 1 star reviews to see what reasons were given for that review. Most often it’s your trike riding fish juggling kitten person who has unrealistic expectations.

    3. merp*

      This sounds tough, but I think if you encourage those who are happy with their kitten training (I love this metaphor, the mental images are amazing) to be vocal to others/online, it might ease the impact of anyone with unrealistic expectations. And in the past I also have relied on the truism that unreasonable people will appear unreasonable to others most of the time – they are making themselves look bad, not you. Anyone who buys into what they’re saying temporarily will have a chance to see them being ridiculous if they do it that often.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. When I see two one-star reviews and fifty 4s and 5s, I chalk the one-star up to a bad customer. I would encourage happy folks to review your services to counterbalance. When I was in Customer Service, there was always someone screaming about reporting us and half the time my bad reviews were because they didn’t like a non-negotiable rule. Or they tried to scam us and I caught them. Last time I checked the old company is doing well, so… I also agree that you might have to “fire” them in a way that makes it sound like they are just too darn special and need different services than you provide. And occasionally you may have to respond to a public post – be factual and calm and most people will see that you did try to help resolve the situation and will view the screamer as an outlier.

      2. CMart*

        I do also try to remind myself that any time I see some negative review (“Applebee’s did not have filet mignon nor the 1976 Bordeaux I asked for! What business do they even have calling themselves a restaurant, then??”) that it’s usually obvious if it was a legitimate concern or not. But I do also, you know, see people online who share poorly photoshopped images of a baby wearing a coal miner’s outfit and express genuine outrage that people are forcing babies to work in mines.

        It’s so hard to get happy customers to leave reviews! I wish bribing people wasn’t unethical (and probably against review sites’ TOS) because at this point it feels like we gotta slip someone $10 to go say something nice even when they’re genuinely happy.

        1. Falling Diphthong*

          Yeah, I usually dismiss 1 star reviews that have no details, and also 1 star reviews that sound like the ravings of an irrational loon.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’s technically against the TOS but believe me, most places do it on some level. They will often filter out things if someone is only setting up an account and leaving their first review that’s super short anyways, for that reason.

          You can certainly still encourage people to leave a review though, even the nudge to do so works at times. Put the links on an invoice or put that Yelp sticker they sent you on your front door if you can, etc. Sometimes people just need that little “Oh shoot yeah I love this place, I’ll leave them a review.”

          [This depends drastically on the size of your town though, smaller ones not so much but the bigger it is, the more likely people will think to review.]

        3. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          crud! this reminds me – I need to leave a reasonably positive review for the engineer who fixed my washing machine today; arrived on time and finished quickly and neatly. Even if he spent the entire visit singing *just two lines* of “Fly Me To The Moon” on repeat every time he needed to unscrew/re-screw something…
          And then he gave me a card with the job number and name and the website to leave feedback on – rather annoyingly it says “If you’re pleased with my service, score me between 9-10”.
          Don’t do this – I will score you as I see fit, and if your scale goes to 10, don’t *tell* me to score you 10!

          (I’ve just realised why it’s so hard to get happy customers to leave reviews!)

          1. Another worker bee*

            So, the guy is probably working with NPS (net promoter score), which has a super broken scaling system, where ONLY a rating of 9-10 is actually considered positive. 7/8 are neutral and anything 6 or below is negative. Your net promoter score is an aggregate of these those things, so the only thing that gives him a positive score will be that 9 or 10.

            Before I learned about this, I just gave everything 7s and 8s all the time because that means “good, would probably use again, slight room for improvement” to me, but now I think twice after working for a place where we used that NPS system!

            1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

              Ooh, interesting!
              I’m like you – 7’s and 8’s all the way, so I’m going to have to revise my thinking.
              It still grates to be forced into a 10 – I don’t believe I’ve ever experienced “perfection” (that s*dding earworm song is still there and I’ve been listening to an 80’s radio station for ten minutes!)

              1. CMart*

                Yes – in general if you’re doing a survey if you were generally happy with the experience give the top rating!

                I used to work for TGI Friday’s and their receipt surveys were on a scale from 1-7, and ONLY the 7’s counted as “people were happy to be there”. Anything less than a 7 was a ding against the restaurant.

                Seemed like a bad metric to me, but I was just a bartender and no one asked me.

                1. Seeking Second Childhood*

                  And then there are the people who have a different internal rating system and don’t read the rules: “This is my all-time favorite restaurant so I’m going to rank them as #1!”
                  On a scale where 1 means “I already called the health inspector.”

      3. writelhd*

        Hi, I work in an insanely complex industry in which the product is a huge and very personal investment, clients have incredibly low trust of industry practitioners (sometimes not without good cause) and success depends on coordinating quite a lot of different people (who could all make mistakes) and moving parts on any given day. And this was definitely true for us. We had one really upset and irrational customer totally blow up our social media with how awful we were. But he was so clearly unreasonable that many of our happy customers actually rushed to our defense for us. We didn’t have to do anything in particular but maintain the same level of professionalism we always do, and just not be afraid while doing it. (and it fact it is better in situations like that to just not respond directly, except perhaps to make a public statement about your general policy or some such thing, if it’s appropriate, and if that general policy is in fact reasonable)

        It probably did help to create that situation, though, that we were strategic about cultivating social media connections with happy customers, by regularly posting content, responding to people’s inquires through social media, etc during the normal times. So that when the unexpected happened we had the framework in place.

        However you also asked about how to deal with it “existentially”, to which I think you might mean how to not take it home and think about it and let the anxiety and upset wear at your soul. And I don’t have a perfect answer for that. I altered my expectations over time about what to expect from the customer experience based on how complex our particular industry is–there’s so many moving parts that they really are unlikely to have a perfect experience and if so that is actually unlikely to be directly my fault or in my control, so accepting that up front makes each one that comes up less of the existential panic attack that it once was. I have trained my brain to realize that a client in need of mollifying about something legitimate, as well as things that aren’t legitimate, is part of the journey that will happen every time. And thinking that all I can control is how I react, express empathy with the customer, and at least explore my available options to solve their problem within the boundaries of what is fair, right, and available.

        Surprisingly that mindset makes the people with obnoxious, entitled, and totally unrealistic and illegitimate gripes easier to deal with too, somehow.

        1. ILikeMeJustFine*

          I’m going to guess you’re making a custom product for people or delivering a custom service, the success of which is entirely subjective but is also deeply personal. Something like wedding planning, home remodeling, or record producing. Am I warm?

    4. JJs Diner*

      Can you do some sort of orientation to better set expectations? Like, here is a tour of our facility, look- we have a kitten class happening now, here are all of the little details… and then slide in there that each kitten is different and while some may get to the end of training, some may not, but that the experience is important anyway for socializing/future training etc. I own my own business and I frequently get questions like this. I preface everything with “I can’t guarantee anything but…”

      1. CMart*

        We’ve spent some time fine tuning the first meetings/sign ups, as well as the mid-training program updates wondering if maybe we weren’t being clear enough with expectations and such. My husband is pretty content with his “spiel” now.

        I try to assure him that at a certain point there are always going to be unreasonable people. You can say “we absolutely cannot teach them to ride a tricycle” and you will still have someone who, midway through the program, burst into the training facility furious that their kitten cannot work the pedals on the trike they bought them.

        He’s just really struggling with how to deal with that. Being calm and clear and apologetic is about the best he can do, but the stress and worry and guilt consume him.

        1. JJs Diner*

          I deal with that too. I’ve had to turn off notifications and make sure not to look at my phone too much after work because reviews and critical feedback just KILLS me until I calm down and figure it out. You’re totally right- you’ll still get negative feedback or people who don’t understand what to expect. It’s just a part of doing business! But if you look at all of the other businesses around you, they all have negative reviews too- no one is perfect- and they’re still in business you know? It’s not going to kill your business unless it’s valuable feedback that you don’t learn to incorporate.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Sliding in here like a baseball player.

      It’s usually worth placating these people and save yourself the bad reviews if at all possible. This is sadly the cost of doing business and when you’re this size of setup, word of mouth and reviews can really hurt you in many ways. Sure you’ll always get a few quacks who will complain and take it to the internet, most people browsing Yelp or other review sites already know that those people are out there and roll their eyes at those reviews. So it’s not a ‘never a bad review ever’ but yeah, it’s kind of like they hold us hostage in ways.

      The thing is also to remember no one is single handedly going to topple the business unless it’s on the ledge [if you’re struggling for business and capital is dried up kind of thing, long term stuff not just a bit of a slow period.]

      This is owning a business. You find a delicate balance of bending over for customers and finding ways to “fire” them when possible. I would do a “I’m sorry that we can’t reach your expectations for Fluffy! I’ll be refunding your money immediately and I wish you the best with your kitten training!”

      Everyone is going to have unsatisfied customers. It’s all about treating everyone with dignity and respect, being the bigger person and letting them get away with some nonsense at times because it’s good for business. Do not let people take you for a ride, cut your losses as soon as you realize you cannot reach their expectations! And do not dig your heels in unless you’re really out a lot of money, losing money on some sales will always be a thing. This is why your margins need to be on point and high enough!!!

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        Seriously, if you’re nice to people, even if they’re cooky and out to lunch all day long, asking you to build their cat a spaceship and teach that cat to go to the moon, you smile and go “Awww I wish I could do that, it’s in the plans for later if the technology catches up! But at this time, it’s not possible. Can I interest you in some basic cat training sessions?”

        They may go away unsatisfied that you can’t send Fluffy Butt to the moon tomorrow but they aren’t mad at you because they know you “tried” or you at least treated them nicely. Really, just don’t let them see you judging them or get snarky with them. Tone tone tone tone.

        Real story, I was brought on as a young woman with very little actual customer service background. I was 22, what do you expect, right? My background was in accounting. Within about a year I was running the place for the owner who’s health was in rapid decline and I did so for over a decade.

        I had a lot of people notice and speak about how my customer service made things so much better. They were still experiencing the same issues and angry third party customers [wholesaler, talking to retailers, who were dealing with the consumers]. And even when I had to say no, I still bent enough that they weren’t left with an enraged person. It helped their reviews and also our own in the end. All it took was treating them kindly, listening and giving them that little bit more of wiggle room.

        Lots of things that cost relatively little to fix were done. They were upset that there was a ding on the backside of something [most don’t care, it’s facing the wall], I went ahead and gave them a small discount and they were thrilled by it. So much can be done by just saying “Oh man, here’s a credit for your pain and suffering!” kind of stuff. This was the years before free-shipping so free-shipping was huge to most if you offered it or if I offered $25, they at least thought “well now I can treat myself to dinner with this new dining room table.” and they went away happy. Lots of “They fixed it, we love them, they make it right!” from the ones who come out of the gate swinging all “you have wronged meeeeee.”

        1. CMart*

          Thank you so much for your detailed replies, they’re really helpful (my regular job is also manufacturing accounting and I often find myself nodding along to your comments on other posts).

          I think my husband does a good job with being warm and kind and setting realistic expectations – exactly what you said up at the top, “ah, we can all wish for that eh? Here’s the great programs we DO offer and a realistic range of outcomes. Here are the things your kitten needs to do in order to get the most out of our program…”. I don’t see him in action so I can’t know for sure, but he’s reenacted things for me.

          Your other point about cutting losses might actually be the best tactic here. It stinks to lose that sale, but it’s probably worse to take an unreasonable person’s money and then (naturally) fail to live up to their unreasonable expectations.

          So when a kitten owner says “I want you to send Mr. Chuckles to the moon”, we say “aw, wouldn’t that be fun? We can sign him up for jazz dance, and if he’s really talented perhaps he can tap dance too” and their response is to sign Mr. Chuckles up for jazz and then complain he didn’t go to the moon after the 2nd lesson… it’s probably just time to refund the money and apologize, eh?

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Are they just doing the “Aw shucks, I wanted him to be an astronaut not a jazz dancer.” or are they doing a “Argh, I can’t believe that you turned my cat into a jazz dancer, I said astronaut!!!!”?

            I have to wonder if they’re just kind of like “Darn, not the exact thing I wanted but this is still good enough but shucks I wanted Mr Whiskers Armstrong to follow his true dreams of space travel!”

            I have people who are not truly satisfied by just about anything. “This isn’t the best ice cream EVER, it’s not coconut flavored just vanilla.” but then they are at your ice cream truck eating up that “just vanilla” stuff.

            Then they’re just a quirky person who likes to complain and don’t need to be fired.

            If they are actually complaining and acting like they’re going to leave you bad reviews until you teach their cat to fly that spaceship, then it’s time to cut them loose! I would at least approach it first with “Would you prefer a refund and to cancel your future sessions?” instead of making that decision, since sometimes when you say “We can’t do that. We can however refund you and send you on your merry way” then they go “oh no no no, Neil LOVES his cat training classes, I couldn’t do that but you know, just bummed he’s not going to the mooooooooon. *sad stank face*”

            I wish I could come and be a fly on the wall to give you more detailed advice but really, try to remember to treat everyone as an individual and don’t stick with an automatic ejection option. Just keep it in mind for when things are really breaking your mind over why this person will not just leave you alone. Sometimes they thrive on just being difficult and you can use judgement to say if they’re “worth” the risk involved.

            It’s like accounting. Think about the accounts you let have more rope than others. I let Big AF Corp name their terms and if they pay me in 120 days, fine it’s whatever, I know I’m getting paid because I know that it’s just their cycle. HOWEVER if Podunk one pony company is paying me past terms, bye bye bye bye byeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee gurl bye. It’s all about the risk analysis you’re doing at any given time. No two are created equal, there are things to look for and debate if that client is going to make you more money in the end by giving them slack or if they’re going to cost you money and grey hairs.

            1. CMart*

              The ones giving us ulcers are ones who are saying “I know you said cats can’t go to the moon, but I don’t even understand why you’re even in the kitten training business if you can’t promise that Mr. Chuckles will be landing there next week. That’s where cats belong, and I’m paying you to get him there. I have a lot of friends who will be asking about my experience here, you know.”

              I bartended at a chain restaurant for years and years before getting into accounting and feel pretty good about “reading a table” as they say – knowing if someone’s complaining just to hear their own voice or if they’ll actually be a problem.

              It’s just hard, because we care about the kittens themselves, you know? We might not be able to get them to the moon like their unreasonable owner wants, but we could still totally get them litterbox trained and not shredding curtains at the very least, if not helping them realizing their mousing potential or yes, maybe even tap dancing.

              1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

                Ah yeah those nitwits need to just be cut loose.

                Remind yourself that their “experience and network” is actually really small most likely. Unless you know for a fact they’re an important face in the community, they’re rarely important outside of their own headspace.

                Once you detach from their threats of “Great Importance” and “Knowledge is Greater Than Thou!” it’s easier.

                If they were So Great they would own their own GD kitten training school, lbr. Nah, they’re just boring basic annoyances. Refund their money and tell them to bounce to the astronaut training school wherever that is. You wouldn’t want them to “waste” their money! Word it like you’re looking out for their best interest as much as possible. “Sorry the drink wasn’t to your standards, we’ll comp that. Yeah that’s our only option, I’m sorry about that. We won’t be able to give do anything but give your money back and save you from !*more disappointment!*”

          2. writelhd*

            Totally agreed that, if you can get yourself to that place of stability, it IS worse to take an unreasonable person’s money and then fail to live up to their reputation than it is to just say “sorry, I don’t think we’re the right fit.” But that is still a balancing act, and an act of just reinforcing up front the boundaries of what you do and don’t do.

            1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

              “I’d rather have no business than bad business.”

              This is something that I heard from a lecturer I went to see about collecting debts. And I need it stitched on a pillow for my fainting couch that I need to put in my office one day.

            2. On Hold*

              Yeah, a big part of customer service is knowing when you can’t do something well and not trying to sell the customer on it. I was recently a supervisor at a complex, kitten-training call center, and we had plenty of people who escalated because “oh but can’t you even try getting Muffins on the moon? Just this once? How hard can it be, you just have to pick up the phone!”

              My answer was often some variation of “I really can’t – we used to do that/we’ve tried before/we’ve looked into it and it’s just not something we’re good at. I would rather tell you up front that I can’t do it, so you can find an alternate solution, than to tell you ‘ya sure, no problem’ and then screw it up and make everyone unhappy.” You can throw in “I know it sounds really simple, but… ” plus some (complicated, vague!) details of logistics if that will strengthen your case.

              Script if there are viable alternatives: “I totally understand how frustrated you are. How would you like to proceed from here? The moon really isn’t an option for this situation, but I could do tap dancing, juggling, or fire-hoop-leaping.”

              Script if there aren’t, or if they’ve already shot down everything else: “Sure, I totally understand. At this point, I’m not sure we’re the right supplier for your needs. I want to make this right for you, and I’m happy to offer a full refund* so you can find someone else who fits your needs better.” – This will show you really quick if the customer was just power tripping, or if they actually want out. LOTS of customers will come back with “oh no no no, you know what, the tap dancing will be just fine, thank you.”

              * “Full refund” = whatever makes sense in the situation and to the business: if they’ve already received something, or their order includes stuff that they definitely want to keep, it makes sense that they would need to pay for that. So you might be waiving penalties on canceling the rest of the order, or a minimum purchase requirement, or something else.

        2. Mimi*

          I worked for several employers administering employee benefits and handled a lot of issues involving health insurance. (You think cat owners get cranky when the cat can’t tapdance? It’s nothing compared to rage from someone whose doctor is billing them for services they thought would be paid by an insurance company!) It’s a tightrope you walk between the employee’s issue and the responsibility to the employer. I got a lot of fedback that I was was nice and helpful. As much as possible, I would be empathetic to the customer’s problem – as in “Oh no! your claim hasn’t been paid (yet or at all). Well, let’s look into this.” in my friendliest voice. Next, understand what the customer wants and then research the issue. Much of the time the answer would be simple and the issue easily resolved. If there was something that the customer could do, I would educate them: “Lab services were coded as A when they were actually for B, so it was paid differently. Here’s how you can get it fixed.” or “Yes, that prescription was costly but here’s a way to lower your costs next time.” Coming across as non-adversarial and knowledgeable while cultivating strong working relationships with the insurance company were the keys to my success. I’m retired now but I miss the satsfaction from resolving and issue and makingthe employee, if not happier, then understanding what is going on.

    6. Kenzi Wood*

      DUMP. THEM!

      I’ve been a biz owner for a year and that’s the best advice I’ve ever taken in my business. You’re allowed to “fire” bad clients, especially if they “threaten” you with a bad review.

      Even if you meet all of their expectations, they will STILL never be happy. That’s because they’re a crappy client and they aren’t someone you want to work with.

      And even when they do go public with a bad review (you’re gonna get one eventually, that’s how it is), respond politely and rationally to the comment with reasonable expectations. If the rest of your reviews are 4-5 stars, this random 1-star is going to reflect more on the reviewer than your business.

      Good luck!

      1. CMart*

        Yeah, reading through these replies I think “politely issuing a refund and apologizing about being unable to meet expectations” (aka DUMP THEM) early on is the way to go. They’ll probably be grumpy jerks about it but at least they won’t be righteously indignant that we took their money and wasted their time and then failed to send their kitten to the moon.

      2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        This! Be clear about what you can and cannot do for them, and if they really insist that they need someone who can get their kitten riding a tricycle in a week, well, your business is not a good fit for their needs and they should look elsewhere. Try to phrase it as helping them along in their journey toward kitten-on-a-tricycle greatness by getting out of the way and letting them find the person who can help them. (This other, more helpful trainer may not exist, but the key is to make that the unreasonable client’s problem rather than yours. Just because they’re looking for a unicorn does not obligate you to tape a horn to your head and try to gallop around to make them happy. They still won’t be happy and you’ll have burned up a lot of time and energy.)

        Basically, not every potential client is an actual client, and not every current client is a future client. The key is to do well enough that you have enough reasonable clients (new and ongoing) coming in, not to keep every possible person happy.

      3. A Consultant*

        One of the best pieces of advice I ever received was “Never be afraid of turning down work if it’s bad work / a bad client; even if you think you’re desperate for work, it won’t have value for you in the long run.” Now, I’m a business-to-business operation, so the Yelp review thing isn’t an issue to me. But word of mouth is still important.

        So, I’ve tried to get better at assessing at the INTAKE stage if the client has reasonable expectations for what I can do/provide. If they have unreasonable expectations, I’ll first try to mitigate them (i.e., I don’t think tricycles are possible; but we might be able to get to tapdancing. Would that be an ok outcome?). If they still don’t seem to get that, I tell them I think somewhere else will be better for them. I try to avoid getting to the complaining stage by not taking on their work in the first place. I’m not sure how feasible that is with “kitten training”, but it’ll save you a lot of headaches to send them packing before they turn irate after the fact.

        Good luck!

    7. Bananatiel*

      When I’m looking at businesses online I ignore one-star reviews if the owner responds calmly and respectfully. You really don’t have to explain your whole side of the story either, if anything that just makes it worse. If they refunded the customer and they’re still wildly angry, I can tell that was on the customer and not the owner most of the time. A simple “We worked with this customer to try and resolve the issue, refunded their money, and wish them the best finding kitten training elsewhere” says a lot to me. Offsetting those bad reviews with lots of positive helps a lot too.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        This is true as well!

        Just don’t be the owners who dig their grave so much deeper who respond hotly “This person is a total nincompoop who cannot be trusted!” [AKA don’t be that Amy’s Bakery lady or the weird mechanic’s shop that was right around the corner from my house but wow no I’ll take it to a major dealership and pay that money considering their outrageous responses from their company GM]

        I’ll even gloss over a few bad reviews that aren’t even responded to because most people aren’t relying on reviews alone and have their own ability to see through the nonsense. I’ve seen so many reviews for places I love, that I know are great and have great people who are all “Argh, they wouldn’t let me go into the kitchen and watch them prepare my meal and they refused to serve me on fine china.” and I’m like “Gurl, it’s a bar, yeah they served your corndogs and chicken wings in fry baskets, no you can’t watch them dunk your food in hot grease, sit down and drink another beer please.”

        1. Robbenmel*

          I am still amazed all these years later that an Amy’s Bakery actually existed. If someone had just described such an experience I would have been all, yeah, right, that didn’t happen. But it did, people. It did.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            I’ve known enough hysterically bad business owners over the years that Amy’s Bakery nonsense wasn’t that much of a shock to the system. She was like a cartoon villain, they do exist but usually not given a big stage like Ramsey gave her.

            I come from an area that was notorious originally for it’s cruddy business and thorny personalities, it made me really anxious as a kid needless to say and why I took forever to really get comfortable calling a customer service line or going into a new business as an adult. Thankfully that tide turned and review sites along with just the uptick in really good competition creamed the bad attitudes.

            It’s usually when you’re in a place where you don’t “have” to be nice, so you just let your stink hang out there and the customers take it or leave it but they’re not going to find another baker in this town, so whadda gonna do, man? [Small towns, hard sigh. Competition is beautiful for an equalizer.]

      2. CMart*

        Luckily (?) we’re a franchise of Kitten Training Co and the corporate arm manages all online responses – probably to keep hothead owners at bay from popping off in response to a negative review, haha. They’ll discuss what happened with us and then leave a very bland “thank you for taking the time to share your experience, all feedback is valuable. We spoke with you about this matter and hope it was resolved to your satisfaction, don’t hesitate to call XXX-XXXX again for anything” message.

    8. Not So NewReader*

      Be able to clearly articulate the services that you do NOT offer.

      My friend does contracting work. He does not do high roofs, big plumbing jobs nor furnaces. See how short this is but it gets the point across as to what to expect. I have given friends this short list and they have said, “OH! That is all fine with me, I will call him!” People are great, you can tell them what you can’t/won’t do and they still will be interested in doing business.

      You CAN turn down business. You can say, “I don’t think we are able to provide you with the level of service your setting calls for.”

      You CAN have them sign something that says, “I do understand that my kitten will probably not [or “will not”] ride a trike while balancing a good fish. By signing below I am agreeing and accepting training X, Y and Z and nothing further.

      Never underestimate the power of asking your happy customers to tell a friend or two.

      Work well with people in your arena, this means suppliers, competitors, complimentary businesses. Build a good name in the business community. If you are in a smaller area (rural-ish), these folks will warn you about Blackmailing Barbara or Rumor-mongering Robert. I have seen a community pull together about Nasty Nancy or Entitled Edward, as one by one business owners have told the person to take their business elsewhere. (The community I am talking about is around 30K people.) They warn each other about the behavior. Each customer gets a chance to have good behavior. When the poor behavior becomes apparent, the continued business relationship is ended right there.

      There is also nothing wrong with preemptively recapping your offering before they pay you. “I want to make sure we are on the same page here, we are doing X , Y and Z for little Sheba for $250. Is that satisfactory to you?” This works when you sense the person may be argumentative later. It really dials things back and gives you a foundation that you can refer back to. “Well, Entitled Edward, if you will recall, just before you paid me I went over exactly what it was you were paying for and you said you would be satisfied with that.”

    9. NotMyRealName*

      Be too busy to fit them in. Seriously, I have a list of people that we would only service if every other job were done (which will never happen). Small business is stressful enough. Spend your time and energy on the good people.

    10. Cows go moo*

      Every single business has bad reviews.

      When you get a negative online review, respond calmly and professionally. People understand there is always that angry idiot who whinges over dumb things. Your calm response and other positive reviews will counterbalance the bad ones. Ask happy customers to post a review for your business.

      Also, don’t be afraid to dump crappy customers. “Bob, we heard you on your complaints about X and we’ve done Z to try to address them. It seems like we haven’t been able to resolve your concerns so it seems like a bad fit here. We won’t continue with your project so you can work with someone who’s better matched to your requirements.”

      Don’t let 5% of angry customers take up 95% of your time. I had a customer who demanded an unreasonable refund for months, bullying our customer service staff and dropping by or emailing us to threaten that we lost a “loyal and dedicated champion of your brand.” You know what? That was just fine. I didnt want him buying stuff from us if it meant risking my staff being harrassed repeatedly and losing money from his demands for refund.

    11. Marika*

      In terms of the stress issue, I’m going to suggest something my aunt and uncle (who owned businesses for 45-odd years) always did: get something (a shirt, am apron, a hat, even just a name badge) with the company name/logo on it, and wear it at work. That item NEVER goes home with you — my aunt used to drop stuff off to be washed when it was clothing — and IT’S the object that’s taking the criticism. It’s a symbol, a stand in for the company, and a reminder that they’re not actually mad at ‘you’ the person, they’re mad at ‘you’ the company.

      Yes, you’re both, but it’s not actually ‘personal’, and having something that stays at work, that you literally TAKE OFF AND LEAVE BEHIND can be a really powerful mental trigger for letting go. My uncle is fond of saying ‘running a business is hard enough; I don’t need to carry other people’s s#!t home with me’.

      1. CMart*

        I love this!

        I used to work in the restaurant industry and the act of taking off the apron/uniform shirt was always very freeing. Never would have occurred to me to transfer that to a different kind of work life.

    12. Memyselfandi*

      I think it is important to understand what the individual really wants is to be heard and that the source of their frustration may not be related to your service at all. I am unhappiest with customer service when they spend their time justifying their position. I am happiest when they listen and they maybe ask – what do you suggest we could do to prevent that from happening again? At which point I often recognize that there probably isn’t anything they could do…;)

    13. Old Millenial*

      I recommend you read service excellence is easy as P.I.E.

      It’s healthcare focused but the examples help you think about how routine actions can set you up for failure by shifting the patients, or customer in your case, perspective.

    14. Kotow*

      In my profession (I own a law practice), I handle a lot of divorce and custody matters, which means a combination of people who already come to you devastated and are more likely to come to you with unrealistic expectations (i.e., no, you can’t require that dad have supervised visits if you live a mile apart and there are no problems with dad’s behavior, or no, you don’t want to go to court arguing about how dad lets your child eat at McDonald’s when there are no special dietary needs). A lot of times people come in with an idea of things “should” be because they google, hear things from friends, watch too much t.v. showing highly truncated custody processes, and become extremely upset when they realize the court’s default in many cases is to view the situation in much more mutual terms than either parent thinks is fair (at least in my state, not sure about anywhere else). All this is to say, I have a lot of people who come to me with extremely unrealistic expectations and a lot of time is spent repeating the same things about how it’s unrealistic. Then, when the unrealistic request is shot down by a a judge, they get angry and leave.

      I’ve learned over the years to get a sense of who is most likely to be unrealistic and I’m extremely honest up front that I think they’re going to lose and lose badly. Most times people self-select out and go to a different attorney. I think one of the hardest things in having your own business is learning that it’s okay to turn away business if you know it’s not going to be a productive relationship. Learning to say no from the beginning has been the single most helpful thing in solving those types of issues. Also when the relationship is starting to break down: I tell clients that it’s okay to move on to someone who may be a better fit and I provide referrals. “Better fit” doesn’t necessarily mean a different result, but it may mean someone who the client can speak with more effectively.

      I do have an online presence though and I have negative reviews on there, primarily from people who came in with unrealistic expectations. I’m sure I’ve lost business over it, but in general I’m not hurting for business. I don’t know what actually brings people in; I know some clients have specifically said they like seeing a few negative reviews because it means they know the positive ones are genuine. I think in general the fear of one person ruining your reputation is greater than the reality.

      Hope some of this helps!

    15. Zapthrottle*

      I help small businesses with the marketing and strategic ops and my two top tactics are
      1- Control the narrative. Not in a negative, “No-one-can-talk-about-us” manner but work to have the TRUTH about your company dominate. If you are very, very good and have a happy circle of clients, make sure that is what is out there. Claim your social media spaces, your search engine listings, and get on the top review sites (general ones like Yelp but also industry specific ones like Dealer Rater if you are in automotive). Make sure that you have the right facts and also reviews and commentary that reflect what your business truly accomplishes 99.99% of the time. If you have anyone threaten to harm you online, you will have enough strength and depth of factual information and reviews from multiple customers to show anyone checking you out that it’s the negative review that is unlikely to be reliable.

      2- Have strong communication (see a pattern here?)…i.e. have enough material and content to explain how your business works, menu of services, and explain what customers can expect. Putting this information out there where it is easily accessible helps control lies and misleading information. I had a gym (client) stressing over a scathing review – the person said they “hounded” him to buy a month’s pass when he was only in town for 3 weeks (Christmas Holidays) and he wanted to do day passes. Well, the day passes cost $20 each and would cost him $300 while a 1 month pass was $200. Do the math there … they were saving him money. By having their full price list and a recommendation of memberships based on need (casual, elite athlete, visitor, family, single, etc), they were easily able to show their side of things and flip a negative review into an opportunity to show that they were a decent group.

    16. pony tailed wonder*

      I think for the most part, customers can see when other reviewers are being unfair. I am looking around for a place to have a brunch with friends and there are about 5 or 6 reviews on one place that all say about the same thing – a large group of a dozen people showed up at the place an hour before it closed without a reservation to hold a bridal shower. The restaurant tried to accommodate them and the shower hostess complained that they were not seated immediately, the place had run out of two or three popular items, and felt rushed when they stayed an hour after the place closed. When the shower hostess spoke to the staff to try to get a discount because of the problems, she didn’t get a discount. All of these reviews were posted the next day within minutes of each other, some from accounts that had been created that day. Bad customers give themselves away.

    17. BigRedGum*

      when i see a company respond honestly to a really bad review, i appreciate it. i like it even more when the company gently but firmly puts the bad reviewer in their place. that makes me want to use their services.

    18. i forget the name i usually use*

      You could refuse service (nicely). Like, tell them that your schedule is full, etc. It sounds like you have plenty of business without this person, and they are taking up more than their fair share of your mental energy, to the point where you think they could sink your business! Don’t deal with them then. There are definitely industries where “firing” a nightmare client is a thing!

      1. CMart*

        I was getting more excited by the minute as I continued with the analogy, haha. Maybe if the not-kitten business takes off I can start a genuine kitten tapdancing buiness on the side.

    20. OhBehave*

      There is no disclaimer that will reach these people because their kitty, kid, self is brilliant. You can bet the people they will complain to know they are a PITA.

      If they complain/review on social media, you have the opportunity to respond in public. Kindly, succinctly stating what they already know. These people threaten because they think they have all the power. Do not bow to them. Stick to reasonable concessions and move along. Often they will back down and go to the next unsuspecting business.

      Use social media if it makes sense for your company.
      Ask happy customers for reviews. Sit with them to get sound bites in order to use in marketing.

    21. Small Biz Manager*

      Most of the time you ignore them. In my head I say “Do your worst.” The reality is that THE INTERNET is a giant place and if you have a lot more good reviews than bad ones, most people will take the bad ones as the outliers they are and it really won’t hurt your business. Always be kind to their faces, apologize, maybe offer a free training session or something, but some people just aren’t going to be happy.
      You can also reply to reviews made on Google or Yelp. You may not actually be able to do anything over the platform, and you shouldn’t air the entire story of the customer being unreasonable, but you can apologize and maybe say something like “I know we discussed this in the store, but I’m so sorry you were not happy with our services. If you ever want to use that free training session we offered, please give us a call. It is noted in your file.” Then, anyone who does see the negative comment can see your response and judge for themselves if the customer was being unreasonable.
      But again, don’t lose sleep over it. Some people are just grumpy.

    22. ...*

      I’ve found that when most people hear or see those reviews they don’t take them seriously. It sometimes makes me more likely to go to that place. There are a lot of bad reviews for nail places that say things like “the disrespectful women working their had the audacity to speak in another language in front of me. They were definitely shit talking me. I will NEVER be back!”. Seeing that does not make me not want to go. One of my favorite yelp reviews for a hair salon goes on for pages about how they disrespected and “scammed” here without performing the desired service. The owner’s responded “We could not complete the service as we had to call the police because you were violently tearing down our displays.” Customer ISNT always right. There will always be bad reviews. What makes people not go there is a pattern of bad reviews all saying they had the same problem. Ask happy customers to leave reviews or offer discounts for IG follows etc.

    23. Pennalynn Lott*

      I’m late to the party. Boyfriend and I own a small, residential and storefront window cleaning company (no rappelling off buildings, just climbing up ladders). We get 1-2 customers like this every month [we service ~200 customers a month, almost exclusively high-powered people with home staff like nannies, maids, home chef, etc.]. Anyway, when someone threatens to smear us all over the internet, we say we’re sorry they were unhappy with our service, point out that we’ve already offered to come back and make right anything we did wrong, and that we take pictures of all of our jobs so we’ll be happy to match their reviews with responses of our own, demonstrating how responsive we are to our customers. [Implying that their negative reviews will actually help us.]

      Only one person has followed through and their reviews were rambling nonsense that made them look like a loon. I replied personally to every single review — with before and after pictures of the job we did — and I have actually had new customers tell me that our company’s professional, considerate, kind, and thorough response was one of the reasons they hired us.

      To get the internet filled with positive reviews, we have our scheduler call every single customer a day or two after we’ve done their house and ask if they were satisfied with the work (to flag any problems that need fixing) and if the answer is Yes, she asks them to leave a review on the platform of their choice: Google, Yelp, Nextdoor, Angie’s List, our FB page, our web site, whatever is easiest for them because “it would really help us out.” If we can’t get them on the phone, the scheduler sends an email saying the same thing and asking for a positive review. 80% of people do.

  7. Millennial Lizard Person*

    Y’all, I have a doozy for you. On the bulletin board in our break room, someone put up a flyer about a Placenta Encapsulation Class. Taught by a coworker’s wife. I just. have so many questions. Did they get permission to post this? Am I right that this is wildly inappropriate, or is that my knee-jerk reaction to a practice I’m baffled by?

    1. [insert witty username here]*

      As long as it’s just a flyer – put up ONCE – without pressuring folks or proselytizing about their beliefs about it, then I think it’s OK.

      Bizarre. But OK. *shrugs*

      1. Millennial Lizard Person*

        Co-worker has never mentioned this in person, so there’s been no proselytizing. I don’t know if you have to go through the office admin to get things posted.

        1. Fibchopkin*

          Same. Not to shame proponents of this practice, but it actually gave me a visceral reaction. TIL how to make myself vomit while sitting at my desk: just think the words “placenta encapsulation”

      2. ZSD*

        I just learned about this recently from a pregnant friend. It’s trendy but controversial, basically.

          1. Elizabeth West*

            Yep, animals consume it to hide evidence from predators. People do not need to do this.

          2. JustaTech*

            At least one baby was repeatedly hospitalized from an infection he got from his mother who got it from the placenta pills.

    3. CMart*

      Uhhhhh do you work at a midwifery?

      Otherwise I think it’s wildly out of place. It has nothing to do with general workplace health and safety. It’s woo garbage. It’s probably soliciting?

      I’d feel the same way even if it wasn’t woo garbage (like idk, treating bunions), but it being placenta encapsulation especially makes it super WTF.

      (idk if it needs to be said, but I have two kids and did cord blood banking with them and read a lot of stuff about the “benefits” [aka: the total lack of evidence thereof] about placenta-things and seeing this flyer would have me shooting my eyebrows to the moon)

      1. Alice*

        If there’s a bulletin board where people post flyers about their, I don’t know, quilting lessons and their dogsitters and their cars they are selling, I think this should be able to go their. Hey, not my thing, but it’s not actually hurting anyone to see that this service exists.
        I’d hesitate to post something “woo” at work myself but I don’t think it needs to be taken down by the management.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      This reminds me of a time when I worked at a school career center and someone on staff (not a career counselor!) decide to start printing up and posting flyers around the center with career tips. These tips were BAD. Horribly outdated. But semi-branded so it looked like the center itself was just… posting these terrible career tips. We’d take them down and then two weeks later, a new one would appear. I never understood why this person thought this was a good or helpful idea.

      1. Millennial Lizard Person*

        No, it’s a tech company! There’s very few women at all! And how many men would notice the flyer and mention to their pregnant wife “Hey, honey, you should try this!”?

    6. Psyche*

      Is there a policy about flyers at your company? Have other people put up flyers about their spouses business/their side businesses? If it isn’t common to post non-work related things and this makes you uncomfortable, I think you can talk to your boss or HR about it. If it is pretty unregulated I would just try to ignore it.

      1. i forget the name i usually use*

        Yeah, it seems like “it’s weird and has to do with birth!” isn’t a great reason to not want a flyer up, unless there are specific guidelines about what can and can’t go up.

    7. I'm that person*

      I had to google it to see what it was:
      “Placental encapsulation is the practice of ingesting the placenta after it has been steamed, dehydrated, ground, and placed into pills. Traditionally, this is taken by the mother and is believed to impart numerous health benefits.”

      I prefer placenta stir-fry myself.

          1. Quill*

            Probably due to the fact that humans and raw meat aren’t always good friends, and the pill because it legitimizes the woo-ness as “nope, totally medicine!”

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        A class? Like, learning how to … create the pills? or how to take them? Would a medical facility even let you take your own? I don’t even know, I’d have assumed it qualified as biohazardous medical waste when all was said and done, and that they had approved disposal methods?

        1. Constance Lloyd*

          Never been pregnant, but from conversations with friends and acquaintances many hospitals do ask if you would like to keep your placenta post-delivery.

          1. ampersand*

            My doctor asked if I wanted to *see* my placenta when my kid was born and my answer was no. Good without that, thanks! Can’t unsee it! Encapsulation? A thousand times no.

            1. Lilysparrow*

              It doesn’t look like anything but a blob, really. Not particularly interesting either way.

            2. XYZ*

              In nursing school, my group got to handle a placenta. Very lumpy.

              It was one of those things where, as you’re eagerly and willingly standing in a line waiting to touch someone else’s placenta, you wonder how you got to that exact point in your life. Like, when did I become *eager* to do this?

        2. Quill*

          I couldn’t keep my wisdom teeth due to it being a medical waste biohazard…. and those were technically not tissue!

          1. Triumphant Fox*

            So true. Or an expensive process.

            But there are also DIY methods. You basically just dehydrate it and then grind it to a powder (unless you have to do something before dehydrating it for safety reasons). I’m not sure what the “process” is beyond that – probably when to take it and why.

        4. HBJ*

          I immediately assumed it was a class about placenta encapsulation. Like, here’s the benefits and why you should consider it, and here’s how you go about having it done.

          Encapsulation is not easy. The placenta is sterilized (perhaps not the right word) via steam and then pulverized and put into capsules. The birth center where I had my children offered the service for their clients (although I didn’t take them up on it) and also did it for clients of other birth centers that didn’t offer it.

        5. Tongue Cluckin' Grammarian*

          I think the classification depends on your area (and if the medical facilities pay attention…).
          Where my lab is, Admin Title Code 25 general prohibits allowing patients to have their tissue or whatever if it isn’t autoclavable and the medical facility has to be willing to hold legal liability if something goes wrong. Some surgery centers/hospitals don’t pay attention to this.

          I’ve gotten one call asking about the placenta pill thing, but if your tissue goes to pathology, that usually means something is wrong (or suspected wrong) with it. Definitely don’t wanna consume that.
          However, we can legally release tissue to a funeral home, who is then responsible for whatever happens to it next, so…

      3. London Calling*

        I had a nasty feeling it would involve something of the sort. Thanks for doing that so I didn’t have to.

    8. Cambridge Comma*

      I wouldn’t do it with mine but I don’t think it’s wildly inappropriate. It seems to be mainstreamish to consider it where I am. And there’s nothing inherently icky about people who aren’t you eating placentas, is there?

    11. Mbarr*

      As others have said, it’s not inappropriate.

      To me, it’s no different than if someone posted an ad for Reiki massage services. I don’t believe in Reiki, but it doesn’t harm anyone else, so I don’t care.

      The only time I was upset by an ad on a work bulletin board and took action was when I saw one for gay conversion services (as in trying to convince someone who’s gay to not be gay anymore. This was back in 2003.)

    13. Anonymousaurus Rex*

      Maybe this is the California hippie in me but I wouldn’t bat an eye at this. I would maybe wonder why there was a class to learn to do it yourself when it seems like the kind of thing you wouldn’t need to do very often and I’d certainly prefer to outsource that kind of thing, but it wouldn’t phase me to see it on a bulletin board. (I’m assuming this is the type of bulletin board where people post non-work things like the girlscout cookie order list or dog-walking services, etc.)

    14. Taura*

      It probably depends on the rules your place has, like everyone else says. At my workplace, you have to ask to get stuff put up on the board (it has a cover, so you need to unlock it) but you can just toss some flyers on the table in the break room whenever you want. I personally put a couple up on my cubicle wall, just because people generally have questions and it’s easier to answer if they’re at my cubicle anyway instead of hunting me down.

      Oh, but I just thought – these aren’t graphic are they? Like they don’t have placenta photos or anything? I can’t imagine why someone would think that’s okay to bring but you never know.

    16. BigRedGum*

      Ha! That’s pretty wild. And dangerous, but that’s a whole different story. I suppose that management will see it eventually and either take it down, or do nothing. Then you’ll know how your work feels about it. I don’t think it’s wildly inappropriate, but it’s definitely wild!

    17. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I agree that it depends on the nature of the bulletin board. If this is where you’d usually post about a “free couch” or “anyone want to buy my old dining room table and chairs?” along with looking for dog-sitting services or to post that your kid is available for babysitting, etc. Then meh, it’s “out there” and I did a double take because I’ve never been pregnant but I’m well aware of this practice for random reasons, so no googling required.

      If they were passing them out or putting them in personal in-boxes or sending out emails to the entire department/company, then heck no. But it’s presumably a break room bulletin board that you either glance at or you don’t.

      Also are there any graphics?! Because that would be over the top! But just writing and a “call or email if interested!” meh, really low stakes level of inappropriate-ish.

      You mention it’s someone’s wife’s gig and that it’s mostly male so “why?” but honestly a lot of men I know would know if this was something their wife was interested in. Its a couple’s thing not just a weird off thing that men are hands off of in most cases! So yeah, if the couple are the kind to eat the placenta, that dude already knows and probably would go “OMG pills, that sounds better than stew!!!!!!!, Honey how about this option…” =X

  8. Bopeep*

    I’ve recently re-evaluated my position on the ethics of “accept position from company A, then renege and accept position from company B.” I used to think, apart from just the potential for burning bridges, that it was highly unethical.

    Recently, I had an experience (without going into too many details), in which I had to leave a job very shortly after starting it. I thought that it’s super inconvenient and awkward to accept an offer and then say “Oops—just kidding” a few days later, but it’s even worse if you fill out all the paperwork, get trained, and then quit. Maybe more “ethical” if done in good faith, but in the end it’s still worse off for both the company and you. At least if you renege after a few days, they may still be able to go back to their finalist candidate pool to make an offer to someone else.

    Can anyone relate?

    1. [A Cool Name Here]*

      I can. I stayed at a job for six months when I should have walked within two weeks. I just thought it’d get better until I finally realized, it was never going to change.

    2. CAA*

      I’ve been on the employer side of this a couple of times. I’m not sure it’s unethical, but yes, it’s massively inconvenient and it wastes a lot of people’s time and it burns bridges. If you have to renege after accepting an offer, it’s much better to do it before starting the job. I’ve had an HR recruiter tell me that candidate X, for whom I’d just asked her to schedule an interview, was someone who quit because he got a better offer a week after starting a job at her previous employer. X didn’t get an interview and we hired someone else, so something he did several years ago is hurting him in ways he doesn’t even know.

      1. Bopeep*

        If you have to renege after accepting an offer, it’s much better to do it before starting the job.

        Yeah, I think this is my new realization. Yes, still super awkward and inconvenient to renege sooner, but far less inconvenient than having me start, and then quit later.

      2. Happy Lurker*

        I too have been on the employer side, but had to let people go after a couple days. It stinks, but sometimes that’s the way it is.

    3. Vistaloopy*

      It’s not something you should do on a whim, but sometimes there are legitimate reasons to back out. My husband went through this. He’s a doctor and had to give something like 6 months notice at his (then) current job. He accepted another job, gave his notice, and as he worked through his notice period, new job started getting all shady — telling him he would have to work a lot of nights when that was not the original agreement, refusing to credential him for procedures he’d been doing for years (which would have affected his income), etc. Eventually, he made the tough decision to back out. He clearly made the right choice, as new job went all nuts on him – tried to jeopardize his position at his current job (which was happy to have him stay on) and he clearly dodged a bullet. He felt awful about reneging, but I reminded him that the new job essentially broke the agreement by changing the terms on him.

      1. only acting normal*

        I wouldn’t feel bad about reneging on somewhere both shady *and* that incompetent. I mean, if you’re going to bait and switch at least wait until the mark is through the door. That’s just basics.

    4. Hey-eh*

      I was unemployed and took what I thought was my dream job – amazing pay, amazing vacation, exactly what I wanted to do and I couldn’t believe my luck! I turned down two other jobs to take it. When I arrived on my first day there were so many things Not Right about the company’s culture and I ended up quitting after one day. The only thing I feel guilty about is my own judgement.

      1. Creed Bratton*

        We’ve had 4 (four) people quit within their first week in the past quarter. Might be related to the horribly toxic and dysfunctional workplace that the-powers-that-be have created. Or that they “just weren’t dedicated enough to the mission.” SIGH

    5. MissDisplaced*

      I did this one time. I was there about a month and left for another job that was almost double the salary.
      But it wasn’t just salary. Once I was hired, I found I did not mesh well with the director, and I also found out he didn’t want to hire me and the rest of the team did. I felt bad, and at the time I really wanted to work in that industry, but I knew it would never work.

    6. Hiring Mgr*

      I don’t think it’s a question of ethics. It’s your life, you’ve got to do what you think is best for you, your career, happiness, family, mental health etc.. I did this exact same thing about 10 yrs ago (accepted an offer for A, then reneged befre the start date). I felt terrible about it, and clearly burned a bridge at company A, but in the end I made the right decision and no regrets.

      1. Bopeep*

        I half-disagree. It is about ethics, but I just believe now it’s more ethical to renege before the start date than to leave early once you’ve started working there. Yes, of course, you have to prioritize what’s right for you, but there is still doing right by others, and that’s important.

        1. sacados*

          Yeah the ethics comes into play when it regards your intentions.
          The situation you’re talking about in the original comment would be if you accepted a job with Company A, fully INTENDING to back out if you got an offer from Company B.
          That’s highly unethical. But not the same thing as starting a job and then soon after realizing that for whatever various reasons you need to leave. That can be awkward, and potentially cause problems for the company, but it’s not a question of ethics.

          And yeah, in a vacuum, if there’s a situation where you are going to have to suddenly back out of a new job, then it is usually less problematic for the new job if you do so before you start rather than a few days or weeks after. But when it’s a matter of an unforeseen Situation getting in the way, then there’s not anything inherently unethical about either one.

          1. Bopeep*

            I guess I’m still figuring out the difference between intent and impact here. I took the job in good faith, so all the intentions were ethical. But if I’d have backed out to get company B right at the offer stage, the intentions would have been shady, but the impact would have been far less damaging for company A.

        2. Just Another Manic Millie*

          “I just believe now it’s more ethical to renege before the start date than to leave early once you’ve started working there.”

          I couldn’t renege on my very first job before the start date, because it wasn’t until I started that I learned that TPTB had lied to me about the hours. They expected me to work more than twice as many hours as what I had been told. I had been told that my hours would be Monday through Friday, 9:00 AM to 5:30 PM. On my first day, I was told that my hours would be Monday through Friday, 9:00 AM to midnight, Saturday 9:00 AM to 5:00 PM, and Sunday 9:00 AM to noon. I managed to leave at 9:00 PM, and I told them on my second day that I was quitting. I offered to stay and work 9:00 AM to 5:30 PM Monday to Friday until they hired my replacement. Two days later, I was told not to come back.

          So I didn’t “do right by others.” Well, they didn’t do right by me. I suppose that I burned bridges there, but it didn’t matter to me, because I never put that company on my resume (which meant that I had to find a second “first” job), and all of my future jobs were in a different state than this very first job, so no one who was ever in a position to hire me knew anyone from my very first job. And I never worked in that industry again.

          1. BeachMum*

            I had a similar experience. I took a job where they implied that I’d be working four 10-hour days each week, but would start Monday – Friday, 9 -5 until I was trained. I was taught how to do coding for custom surveys. It was fun and I enjoy coding. The money wasn’t great, but the job was enjoyable and I was learning a lot.

            However, once I was trained in coding, I was moved into standardized surveys (so I was merely changing the text rather than coding from scratch) for a crazy industry, and my new hours were four days, including Sunday, starting at 6 a.m. It was boring as all get out, I wasn’t allowed to speak with the client, and everyone was stressed all of the time because it was a crazy industry.

            I kept looking for a job, and quit three days shy of three months there. I moved to a normal business that kept its promises. I never put the first job on my resume, but did feel a bit guilty for the people in my department who had to cover for me.

    7. Catherine de Medici*

      I did something similar this week. I had received a job offer for another office in my agency and turned it down. My boss’s boss asked me if I was leaving, since she had gotten a lot of reference calls for me (totally normal, I had said they could talk to my current manager, I’m a fed and my boss knew I was looking for a GS-13 generally). I told her about turning down the offer and that I was here to stay. The very next day, they came back with another offer, basically saying they would give me whatever I wanted to take the job. I decided that even if the job wasn’t just right, I could live with it for a few years to become a 13, so I said yes. My boss was a little shocked but understanding since he had just heard that I was going to turn it down. There’s no potential for promotion in my current office and I’m not going to wait around forever, no matter how much I might like my coworkers and job.

    8. Tom & Johnny*

      A close friend started a new job a couple of years ago, and within a week she was calling me on the phone, crying and sometimes whispering.

      In brief, the person training her was teaching her all the workarounds she was going to need to use in order to – more or less – lie to their boss and their grandboss and the executive director, because that was in fact necessary to get anything done. The policies were arcane, byzantine, and contradictory in such a crazy-making way that it was literally impossible to follow them. Not to mention personalities blowing up so that people walked on eggshells. Ergo workarounds for the workarounds. All of which were bizarre but some of which presented ethics violations in our profession. “Dysfunctional” doesn’t begin to describe this place.

      She had to quit. She had no choice. She was crying, upset, absolutely horrified, and she was unemployed before she started this job. She was returning to the status of being unemployed.

      I 1000% supported her in quitting as soon as humanly possible. So that the job would simply never have existed. She did leave that Friday. Not even a blip on her resume – it just never was.

      While yes in general you should not accept a job and then leave within days or weeks, there are extenuating circumstances that leave you little to no choice sometimes.

      1. Bopeep*

        I hear you. Yeah, in this case, the job was definitely nothing like I expected. Not nearly as toxic as that, but sometimes you just know you need to leave, and it was not what you signed up for (and is unlikely to change for the better any time soon or ever).

    9. Psyche*

      I think there is a difference between taking the job with the intention of quitting if company B makes an offer and taking the job in good faith, stuff happens and you end up backing out because of unforeseen circumstances.

    10. Overeducated*

      I think it’s best to be avoided but there are situations where it is the best choice. Just not something you should do on a lark, more of an extenuating circumstances kind of thing.

    11. Mellow*

      Sometimes it makes sense to renege.

      A few years ago, I’d been unemployed for nearly a year, then secured a 6-month temporary position that may or may not have turned full time; they wouldn’t have known until the end of the 6 months. The day I completed the hiring paperwork (but before I actually showed up for my first day of work), I got a verbal offer for permanent, full-time position elsewhere for which I’d interviewed around the same time I’d interviewed for the temp. position.

      It took about two weeks for my contract to arrive in the mail, but, once I’d signed it and received word HR had received it, I went to the temp. position boss and said, “Sorry, but I got a permanent offer and I am taking it, but than you so much for giving me this opportunity, etc.”

      She seemed disappointed, but certainly she understood my situation. I didn’t ask, but I know did what nearly anyone else would have done.

    12. OhBehave*

      Employer end of things here too.

      Accepting an offer and renigging before you start is inconvenient to the new employer but certainly ok to do as long as you don’t have a habit of doing this.

      Accepting, starting and quitting because a. nothing is as was explained. b. people are BSC and you need to leave. c. you just don’t mesh with the boss, company culture. I believe these are all good reasons to leave. Do it as soon as you realize it’s not a fit.

      Accepting, starting/training and quitting for no reason other than you got a better offer is not cool. If you did that out of desperation (if I don’t say yes, nothing else will come through). Disingenuous at best.

  9. CatCat*

    How common are schedules in the US where you do NOT get 2 days in a row off for your regular full-time schedule?

    My spouse’s employer is changing schedules and this will mean he will never (unless there’s a holiday) get two days in a row off. I think this is nuts!! (Yes, he’s looking for a new job). I just wondered how common this is for a regular schedule (as opposed to seasonal or event-related schedules where this may occur).

    1. Elemeno P.*

      This is pretty common in hospitality/service industries, but I imagine less so in most others.

      1. MatKnifeNinja*

        Working at my hospital, the only way I had two days off in a row, was to burn up some PTO.

        My friend works as a mechanic. His work place is open 6 days a week. He almost never gets Saturday and Sunday off.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          My friend who was a nurse at two entirely different hospitals generally worked 4 12 hour shifts followed by 3 days off.

    3. Goldfinch*

      In my observation, this is common in what I would call “professional CS work” meaning jobs that require both significant schooling and dealing with the public. So: chefs, pharmacists, phone IT support, etc.

    4. BlueWolf*

      Yes, very common in food service, hospitality, retail or any other public-facing business that operates 7 days a week.

      1. CatCat*

        Interesting! It is a public-facing business that is moving to operate 7 days per week (and this coincides with when the schedule change starts).

        I could not do this on the regular. (And he recognizes that neither can he.)

        1. Laura H.*

          Is it possible that he could be unavailable one day in the normal work week? Both positively and negatively, it would lock him into a day off. It doesn’t solve the problem of no two days off in a row but it would give a dedicated day off to tend to appointments and such- which does come in handy.

            1. WellRed*

              There should be no reason the company can’t still give people two days off in a row. I would die on that hill.

        2. BlueWolf*

          Since there’s no law saying the employer can’t do it, they are certainly within their right to do so. However, as you’ve said, your spouse is looking for a new job, so I imagine they will soon learn that it doesn’t make business sense since employees will leave. At the very least they should stagger schedules so that everyone gets two days off in a row even if it doesn’t coincide with the traditional weekend.

        3. Lily Rowan*

          Yeah, I was really sad for the guy in Best Buy recently who mentioned that his days off were Monday and Wednesday. I guess it could be worse — he could have an erratic schedule, and for all I know he is in school on those days so it is perfect for him — but not having two days off in a row ever would be hard, I think.

    5. Muriel Heslop*

      In retail, restaurants and country club work, I very seldom had two consecutive days off and I never expected it.

      1. Jex*

        Right. And in retail in particular, the shifts often aren’t even at least the same from one week to the next.

    6. Sharkie*

      It is very common in the medical field depending on why type of medical. My Partner works at a 7 day a week clinic and he usually gets a weekend day off and one weekday off but never back to back. It’s nice because he can handle the vet appointments, cable man stuff, other house things so I don’t have to take time off to but it makes planning trips away a nightmare

    7. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      Extremely common in retail and call centers in my experience. My mom worked as a nurse’s aid for several years and it seems like her days off were frequently split as well, but where she worked was frequently understaffed so she also got called in to work on her day’s off more often than not. Also bank branches that worked on Saturdays, only that was worse because you only worked 1/2 of Saturday so you could really only take off 1/2 of another day to still get in all 40 hours.

    8. Ranon*

      It’s happened to my sister in healthcare- but generally management tries to make it not happen because it is horrendous for turnover. They’ve been understaffed and switched to 12 hour shifts so they could make staffing work in a way that gives people consecutive days off, with a reasonable percentage of those days on weekends, and it definitely made a difference in morale.

    9. Andream*

      Like others have said this is really common, especially for places that are open 7 days a week. At my first job out of college I worked at a call center and new hires were mandated that we work at least 1weekend day. Somehow I had Sundays and Wednesdays off. I think a lot of places like restaurants, hotel staff, nursing home staff, etc have this as well.

      1. Clisby*

        I don’t know in general, but I worked for 7 days/week newspapers for about 11 years, and it wasn’t common there. It was very common not to have Saturday/Sunday off, or to get just one of the weekend days off, but we always had 2 days in a row. (For example, I worked a schedule for awhile where I got Thursdays and Fridays off. I’ve had Sundays and Mondays off. Or Mondays and Tuesdays.)

    10. Combinatorialist*

      When I worked retail, I worked Wednesday — Sunday, 2 pm to 10 pm. Which was a fairly miserable schedule for my 17 year old self, but I did get two days off in a row.

    11. LCL*

      The industry I work in is considered a critical industry, and we have some 24/7 groups. And we are highly unionized. We don’t, and won’t, have a split days off schedule, the employees hate it. But once you start diving into analyzing schedules, you will find there isn’t an easy way to schedule 24/7 coverage with 8 hour shifts and 2 consecutive days off in a row, and have even workweeks, without paying someone overtime. The ways around this involve scheduling employees for more or less than 40 hours per week, and paying the overtime as legally mandated.

      TLDR:my 24/7 shiftwork group wouldn’t tolerate this, we decided to work 12s and we are union so were able to negotiate some things with respect to our schedule. The negotiation took more than 12 months…

    12. Seven If You Count Bad John*

      Not uncommon in call centers or other service industries where weekend coverage is needed.

    13. Allypopx*

      I’m currently at my first job in a decade that has traditional weekends. I kind of miss my split schedule tbh. So much easier to run errands during the work week.

      1. Hallowflame*

        That’s the ONE thing I miss about working retail. Doing any type of shopping is so much less stressful at 2pm on a Wednesday than at 5pm on my way home from work, or any time on a weekend!

    14. Banananacrackers*

      My ex husband is a lettings agent and he has a Sunday and a day off in the week, as do all his colleagues. None of them get Monday, nor (I believe) Friday.

      As we share custody of the kids, it’s just as inconvenient now we’re no longer together. They are also very reluctant to give Saturdays as leave.

      Drives me batty. Why yes it’s a small family run company, how did you know?!

    15. Overeducated*

      It’s very common in certain public facing jobs in my organization to not have a weekend day off ever, but they make an effort to give people two days off in a row, it’s just pretty common for them to be Tuesday and Wednesday. Getting one weekend day comes with seniority. I’m not sure why you couldn’t ensure two days in a row unless you were making an effort to give everyone one weekend day – two separated weekdays is just the worst.

    16. BigRedGum*

      I think that if you work at a business that’s open more than 5 days a week, it’s pretty common here. Lame and terrible for work/life balance, but common.

    17. Split is Normal*

      Depends on the industry. If it is a job where the office is open at least 1 weekend day, then it’s a lot more common. This is typically the case with customer facing jobs, but not always. My first “big girl job” I had split days off and so did everyone who worked there until you either reached a certain level (which was above a team manager) or you had been in the job for about a decade.

    18. BikeLover*

      My husband is a mail carrier for the us postal service and he rarely gets two days off in a row. Maybe every two months it will rotate out that way.

  10. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I applied for my dream job on Tuesday. Any advice on dealing with nerves while waiting to hear back?

    2. Celeste*

      I recommend a frothy mix of interview planning and distraction. Figure out what you would wear, and enjoy some end of summer pleasures. Research them to make sure you have the latest info, and do some kind of self care like a pedicure. Review what you might like to make known about yourself, and watch a little Netflix. Don’t stay in either camp too long, and let us know what happens next! Also watch out for DuPont Circle.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        What does watch out for Dupont Circle mean, if someone wouldn’t mind explaining? Thanks!

        1. Sydney Ellen Wade*

          It’s a reference to my username from the movie The American President and made me smile. :)

    3. merp*

      There is an excellent column called Tough Love by Blair Braverman (on Outside magazine’s website) that just dealt with career advice. It focuses on if you get rejected, which I am not saying you will be! But I love the way she focuses on just staying so busy you have no time to worry about that thing you applied to ten things ago.

        1. merp*

          #uglydogsunite
          (seriously, her twitter is so good! I watched the Iditarod results obsessively for the first time ever, it was fascinating.

    4. irene adler*

      The above are all good ideas.
      Let me suggest: Physical exercise. Hard physical exercise sessions. But don’t overdo! Plan two or three over the next week. Get’s the nerves to calm down and reduces the anxiety level.

      Get out and enjoy a long outdoors hike.
      Play an afternoon of tennis with friends. Or golf, swim or even a game of baseball. Surf.
      Fly a kite.
      A good gardening session.
      But please, given it is summer, be mindful of the heat and take proper precautions.

    5. President Porpoise*

      Forget about the job and move on. If you hear back, you’ll be pleasantly surprised. if you don’t, you’ll have wasted a lot of time and emotional effort on thinking about it.

    6. T. Boone Pickens*

      Assume the job doesn’t exist because well…frankly it doesn’t. You haven’t been called for an interview yet, picture it as belly button lint or something.

    7. Blarg*

      This is probably not the healthiest advice, but I start sour-graping things like this. If I get super excited about an opportunity, I start thinking of all the downsides after I apply. If they call, those tend to magically go out the window (or are actually relevant), but if I don’t get the job, I already have a list of all the reasons I didn’t want it.

      Topics:
      – work site/commute (ugh, I’d have to transfer trains)
      – mission statement/values (really, you’re going to save the whole world with your widget? Really??)
      – anything bad in the media ever (that’s a curious choice of words in response to negative news coverage)
      – role specific (I mean the company is saving the world with the widget, but my role would be so far removed from that)

      Best wishes for the right fit — no matter which one it turns out to be

      1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

        hello fellow pessimist!

        You’re right, it’s not the healthiest, although I’ve tried justifying it as “as long as I look at the negatives, I can only be pleasantly surprised”. I also go into extreme planning mode (what will I do if I a) don’t hear back or b) hear back and it’s a rejection)

        Possibly slightly healthier might be to not think about it at all until you hear back. Unless it’s a surprise phone interview, the next contact from the company should give you enough time to ramp up your thinking about the job again.

        1. Blarg*

          Ha that’s basically the way I explain my life outlook: I don’t like to be disappointed. I prefer to be pleasantly surprised.

    8. theletter*

      are there industry papers or interesting books that might shed light on the work or the company? You could start a research process that would make you stand out in an interview.

    9. Boop Beep*

      There’s really no such thing as a dream job. You can’t truly tell what the job will be like until you’re in it.

    10. WalkedInMyShoes*

      Like Everyone recommended on the site, keep applying and send a follow-up thank you note via email. Then, go onto the next one. This site has helped me out tremendously. Remember, the value you bring to a company and if they don’t call or email you, they are not a fit. Move on to the next one. The next bus will come and it will be a better ride.

  11. Should I stay or should I go?*

    I can’t seem to decide between staying at my (awesome) job, or taking a new one (that sought me out, I wasn’t job hunting). If I stay, how do I know if I’m staying because I’ve really got that good of a thing, or if I’m just comfortable and afraid of change/being lonely (I’m a transplant, my coworkers are most of my in-person social interaction outside my home)? I also haven’t even hit the two year mark at my first job out of school, which makes me nervous.

    I spent many years in school to get an advanced degree in a specialized field (teapot spout design), and was hired to design the spout for a high-profile teapot design project for a big company. It worked and the company loves us (and I get plenty of credit for my role in it). But now that the design is done, there’s very little spout design work to do and it’s unclear if or when we’ll be assigned another similar project. There’s still plenty of work for me to do, but it’s more generic teapot design. Our team is incredibly high-functioning (especially for my field!) and is a joy to work with. The job itself is cushy: I enjoy going to work, no-stress, 40 hrs/wk, lots of PTO, time for self-development, and my team actually enjoys working with each other.

    New job is with a smaller company that makes custom teapots on request, and needs someone to lead/implement the spout design projects. As best as I can tell, new job would be: medium-to-low stress, same hours/PTO, good team (but unlikely as good or mature a dynamic as what I have). I’d have to double my commute (from an awesome 12-15 minutes to 25-30, for context I hate driving and loathe traffic), and the salary bump is nice but I’m lucky enough to be able to pick the job where I’d be happiest.

    I’ve done pro/con lists, but how do I balance interesting work with other quality of life perks? How can I tell the difference between comfortable complacency and being wary of leaving a truly great situation? Does being there <2 years make a difference? Anyone have any advice?

    1. Nott the Brave*

      You say you’ve done a pro/con list – have you put growth on that list? Will your current position allow you to grow your skills in a way that you’ll find satisfying?

      1. Should I stay or should I go?*

        Good question. My current company is really big on growth, so in a general professional sense I can still learn a ton. They’d probably be open to me using a few hours per week on side projects to keep my skills current and keep me from losing my mind if I don’t get to do any real work on it for a while.

      1. Just stoppin' by to chat*

        I agree with GG. It sounds like the only reason to take the new job is because they recruited you. But it’s okay not to take every opportunity.

        1. Should I stay or should I go?*

          Thanks! The voice in my head worries I’ll stagnate if I don’t take every opportunity to do more in my specialty, but I haven’t even been out of school 3 years yet. And I could get bored at my job, but I’m not yet.

          1. pcake*

            I’d definitely stay with the current job.

            You have a reliable job, lots of perks, room for growth – which, if you have room for growth, why should you get bored? Newer job is a startup. Whether they stay in business at all or how they do is all uncharted territory. How they treat people? Also uncharted. Doubling your commute sounds sucky, too.

            And you say your current team is “incredibly high-functioning”. Perhaps you should spend a few hours reading here on AskAManager to see how many crappy jobs there are, and some start out promising and then get worse.

      1. Overeducated*

        I agree – if you’ve made a pro/con list and the choice is not obvious, this is probably a “no wrong decision” situation where it’s safe to follow your gut. Sitting with one choice or the other helps figure out what your gut says.

    4. UKCoffeeLover*

      Definitely stay! Don’t change something if it ain’t broken. You have plenty of time to move on and up.

    5. Quinalla*

      It’s your call of course, but I agree, this sounds like a “stay” to me. I have a longer commute now and it is a BIG quality of life issue. If I didn’t love the new job with better pay, benefits and HUGE growth potential, I would have regretted the move for the commute alone. Staying somewhere too long is something to consider (I did it, looking back I don’t know that I would change it because of personal things I had going on, but I was at that job for 13 years and probably should have left after 5ish), but 2 years isn’t too long unless you don’t like the place and clearly you are not bored or sick of it, especially since there is growth potential!

      One thing I do when pro/con lists aren’t working is to think about what will I regret more? I’ll also do a “What is the worst that could happen if I do X? Y? What would I do if those things happened?” sometimes that list is more useful to me too.

    6. sacados*

      One side note is that IF you do decide to leave, the “less than two years at my first job” really won’t be an issue. I doubt anyone would ever give it a second thought, but if you did get asked about it all you have to say is something like “Yes I loved First Job and intended to stay longer, but then Second Job came along with an offer that was just too good to pass up.” The fact that you were sought out and not the other way around is important here.
      So that part at least really shouldn’t be a big deal.

      And if you do decide to stay at your current job, I would make a point of keeping in touch with the other company — tell them you’ve decided it’s not the right time to move on now, but you are really interested in their company and would love to keep in touch/ reach out if and when you do decide you’re ready for something new. No guarantees, but if they like your work this much then it’s definitely worth doing!

    7. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      In answer to your question about checking if you’re being complacent versus leaving a good situation: Imagine your entire company just went under, but you have enough saved so you’re good financially for the next 12-24 months.

      How devastated are you to lose the work and community?

      Now imagine it’s 12 months later, your company pulls a miraculous revival and you have two offers in front of you: One for CurrentJob (that died and came back) and one for this NewJob. Which one would you choose and why?

    8. Midwest writer*

      I faced a similar situation last fall (differences included some hints of corporate-level changes at my job that had me concerned about the loss of flexibility and remote-work options) when another company approached me. I took the job and a significant salary bump (but some lesser benefits) and went from no commute to a 30-minute drive. While I’m overall very happy doing what I do at the new job, and while I’ve continued to hear reports of deteriorating conditions at my last job, I still sometimes doubt my decision. It’s done, I can’t go back and change it. Hindsight being 20/20, in your position, I’d stick around a little longer. If you’re good enough to get recruited now, you’ll be a good candidate when you’re really ready to move on.

    9. Fibchopkin*

      Adding my voice to the chorus of “stay!” votes. You like your current job and it’s perks, have upward mobility, an amazing team of coworkers/direct reports, a record of success, a GREAT commute, and only 2 years in. Don’t trade in what you already like for something that is less stable, more uncertain (enjoyment/fulfillment- wise), a worse commute, and in a place where you’d have start new with PRO/Vacation accrual, 401k match, etc. for a bit of extra money that you don’t really need or even seem to want too badly. It would be one thing if you were dissatisfied in your current job or needed a better paying option, but this just sounds like some mild career FOMO. If it was me, I hope someone would tell me this: Recognize this opportunity for what it is: a flattering chance to do something you’d be good at but that doesn’t really fit your life right now, then let it go.

      1. whatthemell?*

        Just wanted to say the same – it’s easy to feel the grass may be greener in other pastures BUT you shouldn’t feel pressure to always be on the lookout for something better if you’re really happy where you are. It sounds like you have a great situation where you are – take it from someone who once left a job for what I thought was an incredible opportunity and ended up in misery and regret: appreciate what you have! It sounds wonderful.

    10. kittymommy*

      A little late to the question but I personally would stay. Both jobs sound great but the only real concern with the current job seems to be fear of stagnation, though it sounds like that might be more of an imaginary concern rather than one that you are actually in. If the current company is truly as pro-growth as you believe then they will work/help you work to combat it. Sometimes I think there is some weird push nowadays for people to always think that one has to move on from a current situation in order to stay relevant or on the top of their game and that’s not always the case. This sounds like a great company and a situation that is ideal.

      Good luck!!

  12. MOAS*

    I just gotta laugh at this.

    My department managers and I had a meeting yesterday with my boss and the director. Boss stepped out, and director says “So ladies, how are you doing? You all…..” she trails off

    Before I had a chance to say anything, the other manager jumps in and says “TIRED!”

    Director: “haha yes, I just didn’t want to say that.”

    I’m just laughing about it, b/c…

    I WASNT TIRED! lol. I actually had on make up (I normally do makeup) and had done my hair that morning.

    LIKE DAYUM.

    2. Isildur's Bane*

      I’m not seeing the connection? I’m wearing a full face of makeup right now and I’m definitely tired.

      1. MOAS*

        Hah, yes, you’re right, it’s a weird post and I can see why people are confused. Just one of those things that was said and done, and swirling around in my head.

        To me, “you look tired” is code for “you look like shit.” Nobody likes being told they look like shit esp when they’ve actually put in effort in their appearance. my director has a tendency to make sly comments that make you go “HUH? Was that an insult or compliment?”

        2. fhqwhgads*

          I figured that’s what you meant but it sort of reads like the person who made the comment wasn’t commenting on appearance so much as maybe whatever it was y’all are working on has been busy/rough/exhausting?

  13. Help me- Adulting*

    Longtime reader first time poster. I graduated I May and I start my first full time job out of college on Monday, and could use any advice. What do you wish someone had told you before you started working full time. Advice for a first office job, really any wisdom you would like to impart would be welcome. For reference the job is in San Francisco at a regional accounting firm (not big 4).

    1. Nott the Brave*

      Bring your lunch, but join other people for lunch about 1/week. It can be easy to be tempted into spending a decent amount per week on lunch, but you’ll end up spending a lot if you don’t plan it out. That doesn’t mean you need to absent yourself from the social aspect as well – if someone’s going out to get lunch, ask if they’ll join you in the office breakroom.

      2. Muriel Heslop*

        This was my first advice, too! Bring your lunch and save yourself time and money!

        Congrats on the new job!

      3. lemon*

        At my last job, most people brought their lunch everyday, so when we wanted to be social, we’d have a picnic and all eat somewhere outside together. It was nice.

      4. Nicki Name*

        But also be prepared to say “yes” if it turns out one of the office traditions is “take the new person out to lunch at the company’s expense on their first day”.

      5. hamburke*

        I agree! I worked somewhere that it was hard to get lunch out in the 30 minutes we had for lunch (civilian govie on a military base – I had to go thru the front guard gate every time but military folks could go thru the side gates and it was discommissioning at the time so there wasn’t really much on base that I didn’t need military ID to access – a Burger King, I think?). Once a week, I’d call in an order for something that I could pick up in town – even then it was usually 35 or 40 minutes – I’d split it in 1/2, eat at my desk and have 2 lunches “out” per week. The break room on my floor wasn’t anything to talk about – a sink, a microwave and undercabinet fridge behind a wall from the cubicles and across from the bathrooms but the downstairs one was nice – full sized fridge/freezer, sink, dishwasher and about 10 tables in an actual room with floor to ceiling windows and was highly underused – I ate there several times alone at the common lunch times and was checked on by security to make sure I was ok – so break room is highly office cultural…

        What I would add to the advice given is ask for timelines. I was given a task which I completed in a couple hours. Apparently, that was supposed to last me a week. I did it efficiently and without errors so that wasn’t the problem, it was just the slow season so there was little to do for about a month. Most people were doing training but since I had to do these when I started, I had completed my required training. If I knew what to ask for, I would have requested additional access but I was so new, I didn’t know what else there was.

    2. Alternative Person*

      Invest time in organization.

      There can be a tendency to push people into just getting on with stuff and it can work, especially if you’re good at juggling tasks (and I am good at that) but setting even two minutes aside to make a list to-do list at the start of the day can make things a lot less stressful.

      (I don’t tend to write daily tasks, mostly stuff related to project work as that’s what works for me)

    3. Green Goose*

      Advice that I got from one of my coworkers when I was new to the working world was: For the first six months try to observe and learn, and then if you have any complaints or suggestions of “how to do things better” people will take you more seriously. This does not mean if someone asks you directly you should forgo providing your opinion, but more… sometimes when people are brand new and they come in with complaints and criticisms of how things are done right off the bat (even if it’s true) it’s not received well.

      Good luck on your first week!

      1. CallofDewey*

        Yes to this! It’s really off putting for people to come in guns blazing when they don’t have context yet.

      2. tangerineRose*

        It would be a good idea to write down ideas/complaints/suggestions you have – it will make it easier to not say them out loud, and you might have some great ideas.

      1. Nicki Name*

        Especially early on. Your co-workers are going to know you’re new to the working world, they’ll expect you to have questions.

      2. Federal Middle Manager*

        Yes! I always tell people there is a honeymoon phase in new jobs where you can ask LOTS of questions – how projects and departments interconnect, why things are done the way they are (being genuinely curious, not judgmental), what norms and customs are…and then that period ends and six months later it seems weird to ask certain things. So ask away!

      3. I need coffee before I can make coffee*

        Maybe it goes without saying, but when you ask questions, make sure you are really listening to the answers and learning. Have some way to take notes (I recommend an old fashioned pen and small notebook rather than an electronic device – you can transfer them to your preferred medium later). When you are new, you are usually getting a ton of information quickly and it’s easy to forget even simple things. Asking questions is good – asking repeat questions frequently gets annoying.

    5. JJs Diner*

      Find things to look forward to! Transitioning from college to a job was really tough for me because I felt like I lost a little bit of autonomy/independence, so I had to find little things to look forward to. Like, an unhealthy-but-delicious cup of mocha from the office coffee machine to get me started in the morning, or that lunch date with my friend on Thursday. If you have something to look forward to, getting through this transitional period is a tad bit easier!

      1. Federal Middle Manager*

        One of the biggest differences is that time is calculated differently outside of school settings. There’s not an end-of-semester deadline or reset button. You have to be more proactive in keeping up your training, finishing projects on time, and finding networking and growth opportunities because they don’t roll around every few months on a schedule.

    6. MissGirl*

      One of the best lessons I learned my first few years was how to receive criticism with grace and not get defensive. My first instinct was to defend myself and explain why it wasn’t my fault or why I made my mistake. I learned my managers just wanted me to acknowledge the error and say I’ll fix it. Bonus points if it was something frequent and I came up with a solution on how to keep it from happening. You will make mistakes; we all do.

      2. Quinalla*

        Agreed, everyone makes mistakes, managers want people to acknowledge the mistake appropriate to the severity (not overreact to a minor thing or under-react when it is a big deal) and tell them when they bring it up what you will do differently next time to avoid it or follow up with the detail later after agreeing to take care of it if you have to take some time figure it out first. If you show that you learned from and implemented a fix for a mistake, managers will love you :)

    7. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      Don’t panic if you feel like it’s overwhelming. It takes time to settle in to a new job. I think I’ve hated every job I’ve ever had for at least the first two weeks before I manage to adjust a little and realize that what I really hate is feeling like I don’t know what I’m doing. On the flip side, also don’t panic if you don’t have a lot to do at first. A lot of places start new employees out slow. Either way, it can be a few months before you feel completely settled in.

    8. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      Start investing in the 401k, especially if there is a match. If nothing else, at least get the match.

    9. Aphrodite*

      Drama is in every workplace. Every single one. Every job you have will never be without at least one of these around (though sometimes one person have have more than one, um, tag): a gossip, an angry person, a backstabber, a brown noser, a kiss-up, a avoider of work. Just stay out of the circles they create since you can’t change them.

    10. Constance Lloyd*

      It’s okay to say no sometimes! As a recent grad and the youngest on my team by far I felt the need to prove myself, which in a lot of ways worked well, but eventually I volunteered for so many new things as they came up I was spread too thin. Thankfully I was able to visit with my manager and redistribute some things, but since then I’ve paid closer attention to whether I can reasonably take on something new without giving up something else. Congratulations and best of luck!

    11. Lily Rowan*

      Also read the comments from yesterday’s post on how to learn office norms.

      Congratulations, and good luck!

    12. Uncle D*

      I worked for a Big 4 firm my first 2 years out of college, and I really wish I had taken the time to fully understand what I was doing and why for each engagement. Sometimes, due to the volume and nature of the work, you’re just expected to churn stuff out the way your supervisor tells you to. The people who excelled really took the time to understand the ultimate objectives of the work they were doing. Don’t be afraid to ask questions early on.

    13. Lifeistaxing*

      Congrats on the accounting job! Former big4 and SO is a senior manager at a regional firm.

      1) Pay attention to team dynamics around start times, lunch breaks, ect.
      Do people go out to lunch or eat at their desks?
      Is it normal to come in at 8am or 10am?
      Would you be seen as “slacking off” if you read a book or watched netflix during your lunch break?

      2) Don’t overshare, if you have an overly friendly senior spill their life story and expect yours, trust me, it’s not going to end well. Be friendly but don’t be overly trusting.

      3) Hours – my SO’s number one pet peeve is seniors/managers trying to work a 9-5 and basically leaving work un-done or poorly done, and he has to fix, usually after mid-night.

      4) Questions – don’t be afraid to ask them! you will not ever be given all of the information you need to complete your work. Following up, asking to make sure you’re really understanding, are all VERY important.

      5) Figure out your senior’s communication preference. Is it email? do they like pop in conversations? Do they want you to schedule time on their calendar?

      6) If someone does not tell you how long as task should take, you need to ask. If a senior assigns you something that should take 2 hours and you charge in 8, they have to explain that to THEIR boss.

      7) If everyone around you is swamped and you have time to study for the CPA exam or write a literal novel (this is real, someone did this) it’s because they have given up teaching you. They could be bad teachers, or you could be bad at accounting, either way, try to find out why you’re not getting more charge hours.

      8) Everyone plays favorites, most of your supervisors are 2-3 years older than you, and not that much more mature. Try to be the favorite, especially if it’s a manager or higher. They can advocate for better assignments and larger ratings/raises.

    14. Taura*

      Congratulations!

      Do you have someone you’d consider a mentor? If not, you might want to feel out how some of the more senior (compared to you) employees would feel about offering you some advice on a semi regular basis. It’s a lot to ask of someone, especially if you end up having a lot of discussions, but it is so helpful to have someone who’s been there help you with things.

      Also, I like checklists. I’m not sure how it is for accountants, but my job means I can get interrupted to do something else pretty frequently and then have to return to the original task. It’s been really helpful to have a list of all the steps in a process that I can mark off and then come back to instead of starting from scratch or hoping I don’t forget anything.

      Oh, and if there is a break room available, try to eat there instead of at your desk, that way you can get to know your coworkers without having to go out to lunch.

    15. Coverage Associate*

      I wish I could take you for coffee! I used to represent accountants, and I’m in the financial district.

      The main thing I wish I knew was that no one is really paying that much attention to you. It took me years after law school to realize work wasn’t like junior high. A strange lunch or backpack or clothing slightly outside the norm isn’t going to wreck you at all, let alone forever. People want to like people.

    16. Kes*

      Try to get along with everyone, but don’t let yourself be sucked into other people’s drama or particularly any taking sides (of course, hopefully your new workplace is not dysfunctional and you don’t have to deal with this)

    17. ILikeMeJustFine*

      Good luck with your next steps!

      I am going to repeat a couple of things I said over on another thread about interns and young workers. It applies here.

      1. TAKE NOTES. If you’re not already in the habit of jotting down notes to remember things people tell you, start doing this now. Don’t walk into a meeting–even one you think is going to be casual or off-the-cuff–without something to write with and something to write on. That procedure that someone is explaining to you that you’re sure you’ll remember a week from now? There’s a decent chance you won’t remember, especially when you’re trying to absorb lots of new things simultaneously. Writing things down keeps people from having to explain things to you multiple times.

      2. DO INDEPENDENT THINKING/RESEARCH WHEN POSSIBLE. While it’s important that you ask for help if you need it, it’s also important that you try to do some amount of independent thinking and problem solving when called for. I train lots of new people at my job. I have much more respect for people who try to solve problems a bit on their own before coming to me. The kinds of questions I appreciate sound something like: “I am trying to accomplish X. I’ve already tried A, B, and C solution, and I looked in the manual and checked the online documentation, but couldn’t find anything.” The kinds of questions I hate sound like: “How do you make a table in Word?” I just want to scream “Don’t ask me! Google that s**t!”

      The common denominator here is learning how to be low-maintenance while still being an effective, vocal team member. You can do it!

      1. Clisby*

        +1000 to #2. I told both of my children this about schoolwork. It’s always OK to ask questions, but a teacher’s going to be far more receptive if you show her the three (wrong) ways you tried to solve that calculus problem, rather than ask her to repeat the entire lesson you didn’t bother listening to the first time.

    18. fhqwhgads*

      This may not apply to you – but it really would’ve helped me to know it when I started my first job:
      Know what the minimum wage is for exempt positions, not just federally but at your local level. California has different standards not just across the board but also for certain types of professions (ie computer professional exemption is different than regular old professional exemption).
      I was young and just glad to have any type of job at all, and I assumed professionals would know what their actual obligations were. They did not. I was illegally underpaid for a VERY long time, not out of malice, just ignorance. Once they realized they made it right, but it would’ve been a lot better for me to not have had to deal with that. That was my first lesson in “just because it’s someone’s job to know what the labor laws are doesn’t mean anyone actually does.”

    19. The Kerosene Kid*

      One of my favorite people in the world gave me (and modeled) the advice to “make friends with the janitors and secretaries.” Obviously, that’s language from an earlier time, but her basic point was “Be nice to everyone, regardless of title or status.” It can help you in the long run (it has me!), but it’s just also the right thing to treat everyone decently. And you get to hear all the cool behind-the-scenes stories!

      1. Escapee from Corporate Management*

        Doing so helps in two ways:
        1. It makes you appreciate that EVERYONE contributes to the success of the company.
        2. The support staff often knows more about what’s going on than the people with fancy titles…like your bosses.

    20. The Kerosene Kid*

      Long ago, one of my favorite people in the world gave me (and modeled) the advice to “make friends with the janitors and secretaries.” Obviously, that’s language from an earlier time, but her basic point was “Be nice to everyone, regardless of title or status.” It can help you in the long run (it has me!), but it’s just also the right thing to treat everyone decently. And you get to hear all the cool behind-the-scenes stories!

    21. kupo*

      Don’t hide your mistakes. It may feel like, “oh crap, they’re going to be pissed that I messed up!” but actually it makes you look more concerned about your own appearances than the overall outcome, and believe me, everyone already knows you messed up. Just own it.

    22. Formerly Arlington*

      Be kind, nonjudgmental and not gossipy. Your career is wide open right now and you might be surprised that in a decade or more from now, people will remember you and if they liked you, will think of you for future opportunities. Even if they aren’t in the same field as you, your name might come to mind when they know of an opening elsewhere and they will suggest you because quality people are rare.

  14. Anonymous Educator*

    Related to the discussion the other day about a place raising the salary only after you’ve left, I found out my replacement has left for another department (presumably for higher pay; I don’t know for sure), and they may change the budget for my old position to get more candidates. I don’t think it was malicious on my former boss’ part (my old boss fought to get me a bunch of unsolicited raises while I was there). Our department’s salary budget was always just underfunded. I hope they find someone good… or can raise the salary enough to get a deeper candidate pool.

  15. Alternative Person*

    I finally completed the damn qualification I needed (after a lot of misery, they lost my test, moved the training location from local to abroad with four weeks notice, messed me around with feedback among other things). My main job doesn’t care, but at my contracting job I got a good per hour pay raise that will be backdated two months.

    I’m less happy and more relived, but it starts to open up my choices a fair bit more. I might have to wait a year or two to really move on from where I am now, but this puts me squarely on the path for it.

  16. Mindy St Claire*

    I am traveling for work next week and I am nervous!! My former boss, who I reported to HR for verbal abuse, has been told by them that he is not allowed to speak to me and we are traveling together! This is a conference that we booked travel for 6 months ago, before I reported him and before I got promoted into a different division.

    Any advice for how to handle this awkwardness? We will be on the same flights and in the same block of hotel rooms. Thankfully, we are presenting separately. I’m sweating just thinking about it.

    1. fposte*

      Oof. But I don’t think same flights and same block of hotel rooms has to mean “traveling together”–do you have everything you need for check in and payment without him, and is your airline seat separately assigned? Then you there will likely be other people on that flight staying at the same hotel, and he doesn’t have to get any more significance than those people. If you bump into him, a neutral nod and “Hi, Bob” while you keep moving or go back to whatever you’re doing are fine.

      Hope the conference goes well!

      1. DC*

        Agreed. You’re not “traveling together,” you’re just on the same flight as someone else who is going to this conference. You don’t have to give them any more than someone else you’d run into at the airport.

        If your seats ARE together, change yours at check-in!

    2. Anonariffic*

      Might not be an option if you booked through the corporate travel agent, but can you at least change your seat assignment so that you aren’t sitting near him on the flight?

    3. CatCat*

      Maybe just make peace with it. “This is going to be awkward, but okay.” If you have to sit near him during the flight, put on noise cancelling headphones during the flight. I hope you don’t have to share ground transportation, but if you do, sit in awkward silence if you have to while thinking, “This is awkward, but okay.”

      I think HR’s directive is kind of weird here. You both work in the same company so awkwardness is inevitable! Talking is not the problem, verbal abuse is the problem, but the directive is no talking.

    4. Blarg*

      He owns the awkward. He did the bad thing. He got in trouble. He’s probably walking on eggshells. Have a seat you like on the plane. “Block of rooms” doesn’t remotely mean “near each other” although you could certainly ask your travel planner to call and request you be on different floors if they booked both of your travel (hotels have gotten better at keeping room info private post-Erin Andrews, so that’s harder for you to control on site).

      While it is easier said than done, remind yourself that he did the bad thing. You did the amazing, heroic thing of reporting it. The consequences are his. HE was told not to talk to you. You weren’t told to not to talk to him. The responsibility is his. And if he acts like an ass, you know HR doesn’t want to hear the word “retaliation.”

      Congrats on your presentation and I hope it’s a good conference.

      1. T. Boone Pickens*

        I echo this, while I fully understand your anxiety, I would imagine this guy is going to avoid you like the plague unless he’s looking to commit career suicide. It wouldn’t surprise me if you don’t see him at all during your trip outside of at the airport.

    5. Dr. Anonymous*

      Don’t do the time if you didn’t do the crime. Let HIM be very uncomfortable as you gaze serenely out the window regarding your bright future.

    6. MissDisplaced*

      I think just try to avoid as much as possible and be professional but distant when/if you must speak to each other. You won’t have to sit next to each other on the plane, or at the conference hopefully. For hotels, it’s unlikely you’d be near the same room even if you booked a block as a company (I’ve never had it happen). If for some odd reason you are, you can always discretely ask the hotel staff to move you into a different room/floor.

      If he tries to engage a dialogue, I would just respond calmly, “I’m sorry Wakeen, but I’d rather not discuss that topic with you.”

    7. Kathenus*

      Cool professionalism. As everyone else has mentioned you really don’t need to spend much time together or around each other, but when you are be nothing but professional. If you find yourself running into him during the conference, you can just do a quick ‘I have to go do xx or find person xx, have a good afternoon’ and then leave.

      My last job was incredibly toxic, and a couple years ago I ran into someone I had a horrible history with at a conference. The first year I let it stress me out, the second year I almost reveled in the cool professionalism approach while she looked incredibly uncomfortable when I engaged another colleague in the group she was with in conversation. Good luck, don’t let worry about it ruin your conference, just own your own professional behavior and give yourself permission to move on whenever you end up around him.

    8. NothingIsLittle*

      If you’re booked to sit next to each other, you can always ask the flight attendant if anyone would be willing to switch seats (assuming yours is a nicer seat, window/aisle, first row, etc.) As long as you’re polite, discreet, and willing to take a worse seat, people are usually willing to swap.

      The rules might change if you’re business class, as I’ve never flown it, but I would wager that generally, single passengers won’t mind moving.

    9. sacados*

      Yeah, DON’T sit next to each other on the plane (if possible) and maybe see about the expense policy when it comes to transportation.
      For example, since you’re staying at the same hotel, is the company going to expect you to share cabs going to/from the conference every day or is it Ok for you to come and go when you want and pretend former boss doesn’t exist.

      1. Mimi*

        If you learn that you will have to sit next to him on the plane or share ground transportation, let HR know and tell the you are uncomfortable with the situation. If they have half a brain, they’ll move him. If not, then at least you warned them in advnce.

  17. When Did You Get Jaded At Work*

    That letter this week about the OP who realized she was being replaced for a lot more money, after being told they couldn’t get her a raise, reminded me of all the cracks in my good attitude over the years about work (I am also in nonprofit and started out very mission focused, but over time have become more practical about what I’m willing to put up with and for how much money). What was the Moment for you where you realized the working world wasn’t quite the mission driven meritocracy that you thought? For me, it was when I realized how much more money my boss made than me, when I knew for sure he screwed around most of the day while I was kicking my own ass trying to get everything done. He made like, three times as much as I did.

    1. AndersonDarling*

      It was when my raise was denied and then I found how how many bonuses the managers received. My boss was getting bonuses that was equivalent to the salaries of my entire department. At a non-profit. The CEO received a bonus so big that accounting thought there was something fraudulent and didn’t cut the check for a week.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Omigod you’re right, you just reminded me of the time I realized my ED made more in bonuses than I made in salary in a year!

        1. I See Real People*

          My boss made the ridiculously high bonus as well, while he trimmed mine (and others under him), which were a tenth of what his bonus was. You know, we gotta cut costs wherever we can! Ugh!

      2. DataGirl*

        I work for a non-profit. Our CEO just gave himself an 82% raise (close to 3 Million dollars), and all the Executive Leadership get 6 figure bonuses every year. The rest of us are underpaid and overworked and can’t even get COL raises because the org “doesn’t have any money”. Now they are having layoffs and there is a hiring freeze. Everyone is angry and miserable.

    2. ACDC*

      For me it was two instances that happened pretty close together…
      1. Boss’s 17y.o. daughter became one of my employees without any interview or input from me. I found out she was making the same as me (her manager).
      2. Different job a coworker would every so often lash out and SCREAM at me when she was frustrated. These screaming fits would include calling me the B word and the N word (I’m not black, so there are many layers that could be unpacked from that…). She would never be reprimanded by management for it, just a little slap and the wrist and a reminder that we all need to be nice to each other.

        1. Marika*

          Also, the reverse. I got a contact teaching slot at the college my parents were faculty at (mind you, different divisions, different campuses, over 1000 full time faculty and at least that in contract). I applied for full time, got to the second round, and they hired all four of the other candidates. No problem, I’d been there a year and was just pleased to make the top five. I was told ‘do these things, and it’ll be you next time’. All ‘these things’ were well outside the scope of a contract teacher’s job, but ok.

          Three years later, new positions open up. I apply. I don’t make the second round, and my boss calls me in, can’t meet my eyes (my shoes weren’t THAT nice, but he talked to them for the entire 15 minutes) and tells me my contract won’t be renewed either. The official line was that ‘I wasn’t meeting expectations’ (funny how two weeks earlier I’d sat in that exact chair and been told I was exceeding everything, an asset to the department and was winning a teaching award).

          When it was all over, a member of the hiring committee took me to lunch and told me that HR had vetoed me based solely on my last name “It wouldn’t look good to hire another member of the family”. Instead they hired someone with one year of experience, no background in teaching and who apparently couldn’t plan a lesson (something they found out the following year when his lessons fell apart – odd, since his first year they were great. Of course, I might have mentioned to my colleagues to keep their file cabinets locked… when he couldn’t crib anyone’s files, he had no idea what he was doing).

    3. ginkgo*

      This is a great question.

      For me, it was getting laid off after 7 months at my last job (second professional job, after being in my first, beloved job for about 5 years). It was a toxic environment and I had started job searching 3 months in and got as far as a phone interview for a job that would have paid better and been more in line with my career goals, but I felt SO guilty and conflicted about it. I didn’t get past the phone interview, and felt only an overwhelming sense of relief when I was later laid off, but I realized then that I was 100% right to have been searching, and since then I’ve felt no guilt about looking out for #1. It’s actually an attitude that’s really benefited me – I’m starting a new job next week with a big pay bump! I don’t think I would have sought it out or landed it without that terrible experience.

      A sort of related story that I’m not bitter about, but think is awesome – at that first job I mentioned, my boss was new to managing and hadn’t hired from outside before (all her previous direct reports had been promoted into the position), so when I left it was the first time she’d had to post a job description and look at the pay range for my position, and she was like “Um… this is more than I make.” She ended up going to her boss and getting a big raise, and she also told one of our other coworkers who did the same, so basically two of my good friends got a $10K+ raise as a direct result of my leaving. I could be pissed that I could have been making more that whole time, but I also know that I didn’t advocate for myself, and that company did take pretty good care of me in other ways, so I’m just happy that my friends benefited (and I’m making more now than I ever would have there, so I’m not too bothered!).

    4. Pescadero*

      “What was the Moment for you where you realized the working world wasn’t quite the mission driven meritocracy that you thought?”

      My parents worked crap jobs for years.

      I never thought the working world was anything other than work – a barely bearable slog that you are stuck with until you retire, because as bad as it is – it’s better than living in a box and eating out of dumpsters.

      …and almost 30 years of working in – my view really hasn’t changed any.

    5. Scaramouche*

      For me in nonprofit land it’s more about a disillusionment with the whole setup – major nonprofits funded by the foundations set up by robber barons to feel better about themselves, when we’d all probably be better off if people like Andrew Carnegie or Jeff Bezos just paid people fair wages, had fewer profits, grew less rich, and let workers decide how to spend their own money – rather than doling out grants where they want to change the world, just don’t make the world worse. And realizing there are other ways to make the world better than devoting a career to it. I got the idea as a 20 year old that nonprofits were THE place to make a difference and locked myself into a career trajectory I didn’t fully understand.

      1. Sloan Kittering*

        Yeah worked on a lot of enviro campaigns funded by big companies who were trashing the environment in the first place. And a lot of it was aimed at what individuals could personally do to help.

      2. Coffeelover*

        I did development work in Africa for a while because I thought I could help change the world. That was a big eye opener.

    6. Goldfinch*

      For me it was when my cubicle was moved to right outside a VP’s office, allowing me to overhear a sitcom-esque litany of #firstworldproblems. Management was fighting me on a raise to meet market value (per a giant stack of verified BLS and industry data I had provided), while this guy was moaning about scuffing his bespoke loafers and how much his wife’s custom diamond anniversary band was costing him. I honestly wondered if I was being filmed, he was so ridiculous.

    8. Ali G*

      When my last boss at OldJob was hired and she made it her mission to oust me from the department, and the hire-ups just let her. Never mind I created that department, ran it for 5 years and all the success she claimed were gotten on the backs of the people that I recruited, trained and oversaw.
      It took 6 months to find another job after I left because I decided I was going to be so picky about where I ended up. No more working my arse off for someone else to get rich when I can just be tossed out one day on a single person’s whim.

    9. PharmaCat*

      At any job where I hv worked a lot of unpaid OT (I’m exempt), then they nickel and dime me on a doctor appt during lunch, late arrival due to illness/OT, maternity leave counted to the millisecond…

      My last job we could not use sick leave for planned medical tests. Um, so if the diagnostic scan shows cancer its sick leave, otherwise its PTO?

    10. Ama*

      When my boss that everyone loved and thought was so devoted to my then-employer (a university) was walked out of the office after having been embezzling funds for the last decade. This was about two months after he killed a promotion I had been promised and blamed it on “union rules” — but I believe in hindsight was an excuse because it would have given me access to our real time budget.

    11. Tris Prior*

      We had all busted ass for months on an insane project with a totally unreasonable deadline. One of my co-workers literally did not see her young children awake for more than a month, due to all the late nights and full weekend days at the office. Literally minutes after we delivered the product (on time!) and notified the customer that it was released, everyone got an email. Either you were called into the “good meeting” (you get to keep your job but have to take a pay cut) or the “bad meeting” (laid off).

      I was in the “good meeting”, so I kept my job but had my salary cut, but seriously, it was just such a slap in the face after we’d been running ourselves into the ground for so long. My co-worker who didn’t get to see her kids was in the “bad meeting” and my heart just broke for her. All that sacrifice, and for what?

      That’s the moment I stopped giving any further Fs about my job. I’m not there any more, that was several jobs ago, but now I see my job as a means to an end, I don’t see it as a mission or let it define my worth.

    12. Bananatiel*

      I was one of two designers in the company– the other designer made almost exactly as much as I did. I wasn’t happy about it because he didn’t have a college degree and was less experienced than I was by about five years (significant given our roles were not senior), but making the same amount was better than nothing I figured. Well, a few months after I first learned what he made, I found out he got a 50% raise! That’s bad enough, but he’d been accused of stealing design work and doing a few other unethical things in the midst of that so I have NO idea how he managed it. I suspect gender played a partial role since I’m a woman– especially since the work I did was much more significant and important to the company.

      I left shortly after that and am happy to report I make more and don’t work any overtime anymore.

    13. Mimi*

      It was when my boss had a check stolen from my locked office after hours and then had the replacement check stolen. Everyone and their brother knew where the spare keys were kept unsecured. I got fired. I was there only few weeks and I had pushed back at something shady she was making me put my name on instead of hers. Boss lady was regularly drinking her lunch so I can now see it as a bullet dodged.

      1. Just Another Manic Millie*

        Oh my goodness, this reminds me of what happened to a co-worker at a former company. This company had an extremely unsatisfactory way of giving raises, and TPTB eventually announced that everyone (approx 85 people) would be reviewed by a committee, and the committee would decide who deserved raises. However, we were told that the committee wasn’t able to meet, because one of them was always out sick, on a business trip, or on vacation. We were never told just who was on this committee, ostensibly to protect their privacy, but I believe it was so that we weren’t able to say, “But all of them were in the office every single day last week.”

        People started leaving the company in droves, and I found a new job, too. When I gave the office manager two weeks notice at the end of July (in the 1980s), I told her that I was tired of waiting for the committee to meet. She flat-out guaranteed that the committee would meet before the end of the year. I said that I wasn’t willing to wait.

        On December 30, I met up with some former co-workers, and they said that the committee still hadn’t met. I told them that the office manager had guaranteed me that the committee would meet before the end of the year, and I said that maybe it would meet the following day. They didn’t think so.

        I eventually found out that in March of the following year, someone in the mail room asked a Vice President who he assumed was on the committee when the committee would meet. (So the office manager had lied to me.) The VP said that he didn’t know anything about any committee. Soon after that, after the box containing petty cash was left unlocked and unattended, TPTB discovered that $3,000 was missing. They decided to blame the mail room guy, even though he wasn’t the only one who had been in the room with the unlocked petty cash box. (And what about the three people who had keys to the petty cash box?) So he was fired, but all they said was that his services were no longer required, since they didn’t have any proof that he was the one who stole the $3,000.

        I became very disillusioned with the working world when I felt forced to look for a new job and leave this company. I had asked people for advice, and my uncle said that if I didn’t leave and continued to work for this company and wait patiently for a raise that would never come, the company would lose respect for me. A few years after I left, the company moved to a new office and fired practically all of their employees, not giving them the chance to move with them. My former department was abolished. I wondered how the company could get rid of so many hard-working employees, and then I realized that it was because the company didn’t respect them.

    14. Coffeelover*

      I’m not sure if there was a specific instance, but it happened really early into my career (a few months into my first job at big 4 consulting). The overarching reasons were:
      1) your ability to schmooze with the higher ups was more valued than the quality of your work (and I’m not much for schmoozing)
      2) general incompetence: before starting work I kind of thought everyone knew what they were doing. Now I know there are a lot of senior people with big salaries that have no clue (kind of related to the first point maybe)
      3) generally being treated like a number in the machine. I’ve been lucky to have a few direct managers who really cared but the people above them? Nope.

      I got disillusioned pretty fast but in a lot of ways I think it’s been a good thing. I don’t stress about work. I look out for my own interests. And I’m now in a job that I generally enjoy doing even if it’s not the meaning of my existence. I have life goals outside of work and a good work-life balance that’s pretty stress free. It was a hard blow at the time that I probably could have handled better, but I realize now that work is what you make it. It’s all about perspective.

    15. Nonprofit Nellie*

      When I found out via email that my new employee was making $2000 more than me. Nonprofit world. I had the credential needed. She didn’t.

    16. Not Telling*

      Most recently, when the head of our division talked about about our being a transparent and non-political workplace, and then praised someone for their hard work on a project they barely touched because the person who had made the project so successful got fired for political reasons shortly after completion.

    17. Overeducated*

      About halfway through my PhD program, which isn’t even a normal job in a lot of ways. Because it’s not a normal job there’s a huge amount of pressure to have work be your life, to do things that won’t earn and often cost money for the sake of building your resume, and to let exploitative labor practices or poor treatment go because you’re a “student,” not a “worker,” or because you just have so much passion that you “can’t imagine doing anything else.”

      It just didn’t make sense to me at some point. I wasn’t willing to have a vocation instead of a job where I’m paid in accordance with the work that I do. So I simply didn’t pay out of pocket for childcare or stay up all night to keep working on publications when I graduated and didn’t have an academic job right away. I found work in another sector one where I lost a lot of the academic flexibility to choose what I work on and when I work on it, but I have a predictable work week, reasonable work-life balance, and a culture where people get training and take management responsibilities seriously. I’m not idealistic but I am realistic and joined my union to be able to band together with others for decent treatment.

  18. Remote bureaucracy*

    I have been the sole person in a department for about two years, my workload has increased significantly and I’m starting to burn out. I work in an area that allows for a lot of remote/WFH accommodations but unfortunately, my employer is weird about it. Some people can but it’s never clear who can or why. I have had a PT remote employee helping me for a few months and I’ve worked really, really hard to get them a temporary FT fellowship and it was finally approved.

    Well, when we were trying to set up him IT for his home office I got a sort of snarky message from our IT department “reminding” me that all FT employees need to work at our office. I sort of saw red when I read that. My employee has always been remote and he is a really hard worker with excellent results and we never discussed him coming into the office (it would be a 3 hour round trip drive due to traffic congestion).

    I’m so frustrated but I also want to protect my new staff member that I really, really need. Any advice?

    1. DC*

      IT is not HR. It’s possible they just never got the memo about him being remote. Run it up the chain, casually. “Hey, I’m not sure IT got the memo that X will be staying remote in this role. Can you clear that up with them?”

      If anyone pushes back, say “We never discussed changing their current work arrangement with them.”

      1. Remote bureaucracy*

        I should have mentioned in my OP. So the hiring for this position was a bit of a mess, we are super understaffed at the moment (think crisis-level impending) and there was a lot of back and forth if the position could even happen and it got approved at the 11th hour, but during that mess of a process I never asked outside of my department if it was okay for him to work remotely. Which is why I’m worried now. My department does not care about WFH but HR and our CEO does.

        1. SomebodyElse*

          Go with the… “Why would the location change for an existing employee? They were already working remote, so it should have been assumed they they would continue with that”

          As I said below, I wouldn’t proactively go to HR about this. Yes I know it sounds a little underhanded, but at this point proceed like there’s no reason that this employee shouldn’t be remote and that this is a simple change in status from PT to FT. No other changes.

          1. SomebodyElse*

            and if HR comes back opposing this… ask them what their offer stated? I believe ours indicates the employees reporting location. In other words make this their problem that they didn’t clearly spell out the changes they intended.

    2. SomebodyElse*

      Get back to IT and say “Not applicable for this employee… please continue remote setup. Thanks”

      9/10 times that’s enough.

      1. Just stoppin' by to chat*

        Agreed. Just act like it’s a ridiculous statement. My guess is someone lower on the office hierarchy either passed along a comment from their manager without all the context, or maybe heard something when they tried to set up someone to work remote in the past, etc. Keep telling yourself you did not do anything wrong! Also, it’s okay to take a step back since this new person will hopefully give you at least a little breathing room (hopefully!) to question if you still want to work for an organization that is so understaffed. Someone higher up is making decisions that resulted in this, and if you don’t trust your employer to support your hiring decision to bring in someone to help with the staffing issues (i.e, that you worry they won’t support a remote employee), then that says something about your org’s priorities. Good luck with everything!

    3. I'm A Little Teapot*

      Realistically – tell the new person what’s up, and offer to be a reference for them. Then you start job searching.

      Companies like that don’t get with the program unless and until NOT being with the program is hurting them. And you’re burning out.

      1. ten-four*

        Definitely definitely agree: start job searching. This place does not sound well run. You’re at impending crisis levels and still jumping through hoops to get basic staffing in place and you’re burning out. Is there any reason to think things will improve meaningfully? Do you want to be feeling like this next year? 3 years from now?

  19. Junk Food Octopus*

    I have kind of a silly dilemma, but would love any feedback on this that any folks can provide!

    My group has just moved to a new space, and much of my group is stationed in assigned hoteling-like seating, where it’s just flat-desks (no dividers). Frankly, it’s horrible, and I have apologized to my team members who find themselves situated in these seats.

    One member of my team in particular is struggling because his hoteling neighbor is constantly texting, and rather than using a vibrate or even noise function, chooses to use the light-flash alert function for texts and emails that are not work-related. He’s complained a few times about this giving him headaches and had to move a few times because of it, but I am not sure if this is territory that we can address (and I can confirm it is annoying – I have had meetings with the light-flash-phone-owner and it is a violent light flash that can trigger my migraines). Does he address it with the phone owner? Do I as his manager? Do I address it with her manager? Do we leave it alone? What does the group think?

    Thanks for the group’s thoughts!

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      My goodness, I would certainly suggest that he politely ask the person to change their settings first, and if that doesn’t fix it, I’d follow up. One of the burdens of an open office is that communication has to get real. I have had to have so many uncomfortable conversations with coworkers about their humming, playing music without headphones, tapping their pencils, starting at me while thinking, etc. It’s part and parcel of the experience.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        “tapping their pencils, starting at me while thinking”

        You… have conversations about this? You don’t just ignore it?

        1. Sloan Kittering*

          Oh yep absolutely! “I’m sorry, I’m finding that distracting for some reason, could you please not tap that pencil right next to me?” For staring: (brightly!): “hi! Did you need something? Oh sorry, I thought you were making eye contact.” If I do this twice a day, they stop. I agree, if it was a short term thing, like on the train one day or something, I wouldn’t say anything. But in my office we are crammed in elbow to elbow with no hope of ever getting out, so we all have to adapt. I’ve also had people ask me not to do things (mutter under my breath mostly) and as long as they are asking for something I can reasonably do, and not in a super mean way or something, of course I want to know!

    3. fposte*

      I think you absolutely can address it as manager, and at this point I’d say you should since it’s intrusive enough that it’s not just this co-worker. So figure out your text alert policy is (vibrate only? or is that too noisy if people leave their phone on the table?), and let the flashing co-worker know that she needs to change her alert during work hours to a non-intrusive method.

      1. Junk Food Octopus*

        I wish we had a text alert policy I could refer to, but sadly no such luck – but it’s intrusive enough that I agree, worth addressing for sure.

    4. valentine*

      If the seating is assigned, why is he still next to her?

      Given it’s affecting you as well, he asks her to change it. If she doesn’t, you speak to her manager. But she needs to change it. Don’t address the fact she’s texting, except to mention how often it’s going off. Don’t express dissatisfaction with her texting. Stick to the effect on your employee and yourself.

      1. Junk Food Octopus*

        Unfortunately, facilities has expressed that there are no additional options or flexibility for seating; they are quite unfriendly and not up for discussion at all. That was the first avenue I had tried. It’s also worth mentioning that she is a contractor and due to performance will be leaving in a month (which is her notice period), so this isn’t a hill to die on, so to speak, but still worth addressing it seems.

        2. Mr. Shark*

          Well, thankfully it’s just a month, but I don’t see any reason why it has to be a hill to die on. You are a manager, and it should be something that can easily be taken care of by you telling the person (or their manager) that this is causing headaches, or frankly is just distracting.

    5. Madeleine Matilda*

      As a manager I think you have standing to ask the employee to turn off the light notifications during work hours. It’s no different than asking someone to turn off their ring tone or not to listen to music without headphones.

    6. Master Bean Counter*

      Tell him if he’s that worried about missing a text a smart watch is the way to go. You can get them for under $50 on amazon these days.

    7. Alternative Person*

      If it’s migraine trigger level you should definitely address it. It might be a case of going to their manager first, depending on how your hierarchy works, but people should not be casually flashing bright lights around.

      (Also, while I haven’t had a seizure triggered specifically by light flashes, I am epileptic and I find flashing lights super disorienting (I wear sunglasses at concerts) so this is something that needs to be dealt with, probably quickly.)

    8. Voc Ed Teacher*

      PLEASE adddress it! I am a chronic migraine sufferer, bright flashes of light can be a trigger or if I’m experiencing an aura with one, this will make it worse. Not only is it annoying, its impacting someone’s health.

      1. NothingIsLittle*

        But what would that change about the situation? I would certainly be sympathetic, but these are personal texts, not business texts, so she shouldn’t be taking them at work anyway. That they’re preventing other people from doing work makes it a problem that Octopus’s report or the neighbor’s manager should be addressing. If it weren’t a problem, I’d say to let it go, but causing since it’s causing the people around her to have migraines or otherwise be unable to work, her phone needs to be on Do Not Disturb when she’s in the office.

        1. BelleMorte*

          It matters because if other people are allowed to check personal emails/texts, you can’t tell someone who is hard of hearing that they alone can’t because their accessibility tool is annoying.

          HOWEVER… talk to the person and tell them the light flashing is triggering migraines.

          2. NothingIsLittle*

            I guess in my mind it’s a conflict of medical accommodations. It’s not necessary to her work and is triggering migraines (I guess I should have been clearer that I meant people were unable to work because it triggered a medical condition), so it’s not that her accessibility tool is annoying, it’s that her accessibility tool is actively hurting her coworkers . She wouldn’t be prevented from checking her personal texts/emails, there just wouldn’t be a notification of their arrival. Perhaps you could make the case that the fix should instead be her moving to another desk instead of her phone being on Do Not Disturb, but my understanding of the situation was that this had been considered and wasn’t viable.

          3. Observer*

            That’s not really the case. The problem is not checking email / text. It’s creating a disturbance that is not work related.

  20. AP No Noir*

    What do you want to hear when I can’t pay your invoice? I am in finance but have little control over what has been selected for payment. I can’t promise a date/payment amount but try to reply to each of the hundreds of emails I receive daily. Other than “I’m sorry” what can I say?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      What’s the reason you can’t pay the invoice? Would those details be none of their business? I mean, it would seem it would sort of be their business, because business involves their invoice being paid…

    2. Sloan Kittering*

      Ugh I so feel this! I used to work in a program that did a terrible job paying the invoices of freelancers (partly because they had firm cut off dates for payments, partly because they were using gov’t funds so things had to be exactly right in ways that always changed) and I always felt like garbage being part of it.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Hundreds?
      Umm. Are you sure you will be getting a paycheck?

      This has to be super upsetting to deal with, I am sorry this is happening to you.

      1. KR*

        This is what I’m thinking. OPs org either needs standard payment terms and needs to stick to them, or needs to pay their invoices by the due date and the fact that they aren’t is unsettling.

        1. Lucy Preston*

          Very true, but many of us work jobs where we don’t make policy, we have to work within the policy constraints.

          to AP No Noir, being on the collecting side, I most often heard that the invoice was still on the desk of X for review. They promised to check with X, but ultimately it was up to X to get the payment processed.

    4. Master Bean Counter*

      Here’s my reply:
      “I’m sorry your invoice wasn’t approved for payment this week. I’ll look into it and try to get it in on the next check run.”
      Then tell your boss who’s bugging you for payment.

    5. ACDC*

      Well, we want to hear when we can expect payment in all honesty. Do you have a way to escalate requests? That is really frustrating for you and for your vendors. My first account job was in AP for a small company in which they would never (and I mean never) pay their bills on time. I was instructed not to pay any invoices until the vendor called to ask about payment statuses.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It happens every single day.

          This is why most restaurants are put on cash-on-delivery terms, they’re the GD worst ever.

          I have broken many customers of this ‘habit’ as well by freezing terms and telling them they’d be removed if it happens again. When they don’t change, they are suddenly on cash only terms oh and then we get paid or they have to go find another vendor to try to play games with, good luck with that, until that vendor tells them to GTFO of course.

      2. Falling Diphthong*

        I want to hear when you will pay me.

        I have had two responses from a company not paying me by the expected date:
        a) “Oops, let me check on that.” Check arrives within the week.
        b) “Gosh yeah, complicated, will like definitely be this future date.” Company went bankrupt without paying me.

        So yeah, if your company doesn’t pay on time I won’t work for you any more, figuring I’d better cut my losses before the impending bankruptcy. It’s not like I’m sending invoices as a hobby that I don’t expect to be renumerative–I completed the work as assigned, and I expect to be paid the contracted amount within 8 weeks. Most places do this like it’s in their business model.

    6. Emi*

      As a freelancer, I’d just prefer you to be honest about what I can expect, so that I can react accordingly. If that answer is “I have no idea when/if you might get paid” then that is an answer.

      That might mean not doing any more work for the company until payment is received, or ever again, just don’t string me along.

    7. RS*

      I’m in the same situation and I feel your pain. I have no idea what people want to hear from me though, so I have no advice.

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        They want to hear from you when a check will be sent for the goods or services already rendered. They might understand that you are not the person who okays that, but if your company put you out on the pointy end of the stick to explain matters, well, you’re the only person from whom the vendors can try to get answers.

        People who say “I sent you this work 3 months ago, and I want my money” are not trying to be mean or hurt anyone’s feelings–they want to be paid. They would not have agreed to the job if they were told payment might or might not happen, who knows with these things?

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        We want you to tell us that we’re going to get paid and that the check is either being cut in this next check run or that it was cut last week and should be there any minute now.

        Anything short of that is going to upset someone. Rightfully so.

        Think about it this way. Our invoices being paid is how we continue as a business. The small the business, the more important an individual invoice is going to have an impact on the bottom line. That money means I can then turn around and pay to keep our lights on, machines running and staff paid on time.

        I know you’re just the messenger but there are millions of AP squads that can pay within reasonable terms and don’t dodge customers who want paid for their services/products rendered. So truly think about who you’re working for because it does reflect horribly on the AP clerks put in this situation.

    8. magnusarchivist*

      This is giving me flashbacks to a nonprofit I worked for, where I was a department head and had a budget, but all invoice payments ran through one billing person for the whole organization. And they would never, ever pay bills on time. I’d order products or services which should have been covered by my budget, forward the invoice to billing, and then hear back *months* later from the vendor that they still hadn’t been paid.

      It was horrifically embarrassing for me, but all I could do was apologize and promise to look into it, at which point they’d usually get paid. (Am unsure what happened to the invoices still open when I left.) Would have loved to give them the billing person’s contact info and say “it’s out of my hands — check with them!” but we were expressly forbidden from doing that.

    9. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Don’t work at this company any longer if they’re so awful at paying their bills on time. Nothing you can say will ever make us happy.

      The best thing to say is “We have received the invoice [so I know it’s in your system] but unfortunately don’t have any additional information on when payment will be submitted.”

      Do you have someone to refer them to? They’re still going to be enraged. I can only assume that you’re with a big enough company that this isn’t costing you vendors because I just ripped credit terms away from someone who could never tell me when I was going to get paid. This is a huge sign that you’re having internal issues and my risk of never being paid is high.

    10. Narvo Flieboppen*

      Been there, done that. I spent too many months going through that hamster wheel. I don’t have a good speech for you, other than doing your best to placate the ones who are angry.

      The best advice I can give you is to pull that ripcord and bail out before the missed payment is your pay check. Perhaps surprisingly, the best business for paying their bills on time is a NPO for which I’m working. We have a hive full of other bee problems, but paying the bills ain’t one.

      The place which was so terrible about paying bills was a world renowned business run by a family of multi-millionaires. Just run very poorly, of course. The final sign it was time to leave was when we couldn’t pay the bills, couldn’t give raises to staff because ‘there’s no money in the budget’, and yet I’m cutting bonus checks for the management team for 5x the AP balance due. Oh hell no.

    11. Zapthrottle*

      That question can only be answered by the person controlling that invoice’s destiny. Until you have approval to pay it, you aren’t the almighty invoice destiny driver so point the vendor to the person who is. If the invoice is part of a laaaaarge pile of documents needing to be approved by one person….THAT’s who controls the invoice’s destiny…..send them that-a-way!

    12. AccountantWendy*

      Hi! I work in AR and so I’m on the other side of this, writing to the poor AP people like you! More than anything, I want you to acknowledge the payment is past due! That goes a long way in my book….”Sorry our account has fallen behind.” I realize most of the people I’m talking to aren’t the decision makers and would prefer not to be in an uncomfortable position. I’m not asking you to defend your company’s position, so “We have the invoice but I don’t have an ETA on payment” is so much easier than getting into uncomfortable details or otherwise feeling like you need to justify yourself. Frankly, it’s none of my business why you’re company’s payment is late, I only need to know that you know that it’s late and from there, it’s up to my company to decide how to manage our risk.

    13. Shirley Keeldar*

      I want an accurate estimate of when I’ll get my payment. I don’t want an apology, since that doesn’t help me pay my bills. I get that you’re in a tough spot, I do, but if my check is 3-4 months late I’m in a much tougher spot than you are, so I’m afraid my sympathy is limited.

      There’s just not that much you can say that will work in this situation. Words don’t replace cash. If you hand the cashier at the grocery store your money, you want your groceries, right? If he/she kept your groceries and refused to give them to you, is there anything he/she could say to make that situation better?

      If it’s impossible for you to pay an invoice or give an accurate estimate of when the invoice will be paid, your job is going to be pretty awful. Sorry about that. But it’s not the fault of the people who just want the money they’re actually due.

      1. Shirley Keeldar*

        Um, sorry, I think I sounded a little bitter there. I’ve been freelancing for sixteen years in an industry that’s notorious for paying late. It does get to me. OP, I realize you’re feeling powerless and stuck, and I didn’t mean to snap at you. I just meant…in the situation you describe…I don’t think words are going to help.

  21. What'sThePoint*

    I’ve been unemployed for over a year and a half. After doing what seems like tons of phone screenings and interviews, I’m finding that the more I do, the less motivated I am to do any sort of prep for them. If I spend a lot of time preparing for a phone screening, then I expect to either be asked to go to an interview or never hear from them again. If spend a lot of time preparing for an interview, then I expect to never hear back from them. It just seems so pointless to be doing them at all, let alone investing time in preparing for them, when the end result never changes.

    I actually find myself getting angry when companies reach out to me. Like, “Why are you bothering me? It wasn’t enough that I wasted all that time slogging through your application system? Now you need a half hour phone call and then an hour interview to further confirm how worthless and unhirable I am?!”

    Does anyone have any advice on how I could feel less resentful or find motivation to prepare for phone screenings or interviews again? Or have I been unemployed long enough that it just doesn’t matter and I can finally stop applying? I can’t imagine being hired or having a job again anymore.

    1. Master Bean Counter*

      Can you go volunteer some where to find a little purpose? It’s a terrible cycle until the day things just click and fall into place. In the mean time a little distraction goes a long way.
      Also cut down on the number of applications you are putting in, if you can. Look for better fits for your skills. Less can be way more in this case.

      1. Qwerty*

        Seconding this suggestion! In addition to finding purpose, you’ll also get the morale boost of accomplishing something which should improve your mood and your confidence. Give yourself something else to focus on so there is less stress involved in your job hunt. Additionally, it may eventually help with the job search by showing that you are still working (even if it is unpaid), which gives you recent accomplishments and stories to point to during the behavioral interviews.

        Another thought would be to give yourself a break from interviewing in your field and spend a few months doing part-time work at a fast-food restaurant or retail store. Kids are going back to school, which means there will likely be more openings. In my area many of these places skip the traditional application process and just advertise certain days for walk-on, instant interviews with the hiring manager.

        1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

          This!!
          You need a break. A part-time retail job will give you an income and a purpose, but not take up all of your time. At this stage, you sound so overwhelmed that a bit of self-care is required.

          There is a point, I promise. You just need to go a step or two removed for it to get clearer.

    2. Quill*

      Hey point, I was unemployed from last November to the end of May.

      The only advice I’d give you is to cut down on the feeling of waiting on people by not putting any pressure on yourself to respond immediately (or even quickly) to companies or recruiters. Turn off the notification on your phone, let the emails pile up, and do something else with tangible results for at least half the day – whether that’s working out, cleaning the house, going to the library, or whatever. Any recruiting place that wants to get down your throat about “apply immediately!” is at best just throwing candidates at any position they can find, at worst actively shady.

      If they needed a candidate at 5 AM on Tuesday there’s no reasonable reason for them (or any recruiting company representing them,) to think that anyone who applies after 5 PM the same day is too late.

      (Also in my industry phone screenings don’t tend to be something that people can really prepare for? The companies are too big compared to the obscure duties that you’d end up having, so maybe try and cut your prep down to the essentials.)

    3. Colette*

      That sounds discouraging, but it also sounds like something that is turning in to a self-fulfilling cycle. You don’t expect the interview to go anywhere, so you don’t sound interested, so they don’t advance you to the next round.

      But it’s not that you’re worthless and unhireable, just that it hasn’t worked out yet.

      Can you do some networking (i.e. talk with people you know and have worked with about their career path/industry/company)? Not because it will necessarily lead to jobs, but because it will help you remember that you are a good employee.

      What about volunteering? That could again help you remember that you are useful.

    4. Andream*

      I’ve been there and it is rough. Try and keep a positive attitude. Don’t think of it as they are interviewing you to show how worthless you are, but they are interviewing you because there is obviously something that you have that you want. If you come to an interview with that bad attitude they will be able to see it and it could be the defining factor about why they did t hire you.

      Also, check to see if there are any job support groups around you. My local workforce development center has lots of workshops that help keep you motivated. It can help just knowing that you aren’t alone.
      Good luck!

    5. Just stoppin' by to chat*

      This may not be what you’re looking for, but the anger you describe, on top of a 1.5 year job search, sounds like you may be experiencing depression. Hopefully you can find ways to incorporate breaks, walks, something that raises your spirits throughout the day. Even trying to find a therapist that works on a sliding scale, or willing to work pro bono, etc. Even just watching some funny videos on YouTue throughout the day to give yourself time to laugh! You are not unhireable!

    6. Not A Manager*

      Your situation sounds depressing. Is it possible that you’re getting a bit depressed? If you have access to healthcare, you might check in with your PCP for some support.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I fear that at this point, your anger and disappointment may be palatable when you get those interviews, so you’re possibly not doing very well and you’re phoning it in.

      What happens is at first we’re full of energy and positivity, we give it our all and we experience a wave of rejections. It’s not our fault, it’s because we’re fighting it out with other highly skilled professionals looking for those same jobs, we’re just squeaked out by the person with a years more experience or more education or who’s mom knows the hiring manager, etc.

      You’ve now internalized it, are using it to define your self worth and it’s deteriorating your energy level and ability to show that marketable “face” during the courting/interview stage. It’s the cycle of depression and it’s truly awful, my heart goes out to you for it, I’ve been there done it and also known many who have done the same song and awful dance.

      But really you have to keep swimming when you start thinking about just sinking to the bottom of the river you’re trying to get across. It’s easier said than done but you can do it, you are worth it and you deserve nice things. You are not unhireable. You are not worthless. These are crude things our minds tell us but they are lies.

      There is no level where you should stop applying and stop trying.

    8. NothingIsLittle*

      When I was unemployed, my depression got exponentially worse and, for me, it was a combination of not having a routine and feeling worthless, since nothing felt productive. My best advice would be to find a way to stick with a routine where you wake up the same time every day and start with something that feels productive (like writing your novel for 30 minutes or cooking an impressive breakfast, something that you’ll feel accomplished doing). I can’t say if you’re depressed or not, but either way, many people benefit from having at least some structure in their schedule. I would also recommend finding something that helps you feel valued. Some people have mentioned volunteering or taking a part-time food service or retail job for something to do, and I’d add possibly temping depending on where you live and where you are in your professional experience.

      I wasn’t unemployed for very long and it was right out of college, but it felt like eons. I could barely function and only got better when I started temping. It gave me a reason to wake up before 3 pm and reassured me that I wasn’t unemployable, just inexperienced. Good luck with your search, I hope you connect with the right job soon!

      1. Grand Admiral Thrawn Is Still Blue*

        I agree with the temp work. That’s what I’m doing while I’m waiting, going through my own rounds of interviews and no offers. It’s good to be working, getting paid, having a routine even if it’s not the best pay or situation.

    9. Elizabeth West*

      I get it; I’ve been unemployed now for nearly three years. I’ve definitely skunked some interviews or screens because I felt the same damn way. I tried to get a subsistence job and I couldn’t even do that, at least not here.

      What helps me is getting out of the house now and then to do things I enjoy. You could volunteer, if you’re into that; personally, I am not, so I don’t. I like to see films (I’m picky about what I see at the cinema, so it’s not a lot of money). I go do things with friends. I have my Buddhist group every week and I look forward to that. Meditation helps me feel less anxious about it. Even going for a walk on the regular helps.

      I how it feels to think no one will ever hire you again, but that’s unlikely. If your job market is limited like mine is, maybe it’s time to start looking further afield.

    10. Gumby*

      Just want to let you know that the end result still could change. I was unemployed for over 2 years once (close to 3 but broken up with a few months of contract work towards the start), and have been in my current job for over 3 years now. You might hear a lot of no (or nothing – bleeegghhh) but it only takes one yes!

      But yes, it’s hard, and depressing, and sometimes infuriating. I’d second the job support group suggestion. It was hugely helpful for me. Both in “I can talk with people who know what I am going through” terms and in “we said we’d present our elevator pitches tomorrow, I better work on that” accountability.

        1. Gumby*

          There was an organization running a “job search boot camp” that I was fortunate enough to be able to participate in. (JVS in San Francisco – they are *wonderful* and I can not say enough good things about them.)

          But I also found a few other groups that I dropped in on every once in a while. One aimed at “older” workers over 40 (I didn’t qualify age-wise but they didn’t seem to care) that I found out about at a job fair, one put on by a professional organization (local chapter of PMI). I’d even check MeetUp and if no such thing exists consider starting it.

    11. Pommette!*

      No advice from me – just a lot of sympathy. Prolonged unemployment sucks. It’s scary and dispiriting. It’s so hard to get excited, or even mildly enthusiastic, about applications that seem to always go ignored, and interviews that seem never to lead anywhere. And really, once your hopes have been dashed enough time, it feels protective and logical not to get them up again.

      I spent almost year unemployed a few years ago. My current contract will end soon, and none of my searching so far has panned out. I’m pretty sure that it’s going to be another long slog, and I am terrified and discouraged. This time around, I plan to try to muster some enthusiasm by :

      – Not beating myself up over my attitude. I’ll try to stay cheerful, but if I feel discouraged, I at least won’t feel guilty about it.

      – Trying to trick myself into thinking that interviews are a fun thing in and of themselves, and to remind myself that they are a useful experience. I might not think/feel that I’m going to get a job out of a given interview, but I can still go in hoping for a meaningful exchange with people whose work interests me, and who thought enough of me to invite me in.

      – Being proud of good applications and of interviews well-done, and reminding myself that that pride doesn’t have to be contingent on external rewards. I’m going to actively celebrate, and brag about, those successes as such (even if no jobs materialise).

      – Setting up artificial rewards for myself so that I have something to look forward to when I do applications and interviews. For the interviews, I’ll use whatever “special occasion” luxury is too big to afford without a good excuse.

      – Reminding myself that partial successes are still successes. Getting an interview is a sign that you’re doing something right!

      Good luck. Some job markets are really, really tough! It’s taking you a long time to land a job because you’re in a tough market, not because there is anything wrong with you. The phone screens and interviews that you’re getting already show that you are a good candidate. Something will eventually click. I hope that it does so soon.

    12. emmelemm*

      I know “just go volunteer” is a cliched suggestion, but I really think it can be helpful. For one thing, it puts you on a schedule to be accountable to *something*, and depending on what it is, if it’s even remotely related to the field you’re in, it can go on a resume and make it not seem like a giant black hole has appeared in the middle of your life.

      My significant other was unemployed for a looooong time (more than a year and a half), and he eventually did start volunteering, and I really do think that it did lead to him getting a job in the end. Not directly by making a contact (which was a small possibility), but just by being there on his resume and showing that he was doing something. And also, the business that he works for places a really, really high value on engaging with the community and giving back, and maybe the volunteering was just enough to make them stop and focus on him even with the less-than-ideal job history.

    13. Mellow*

      I was in the same boat for a year. It SUCKS.

      Get something, even a part-time retail job as others have suggested. It shows you’re employable, even if not in the same profession for which you are seeking full-time employment.

      And if you can afford to, take a course in something, even if it, too, is unrelated to the job.

      It’ll work out.

      1. YetAnotherUsername*

        Absolutely agree with the “take any job” suggestion. Whenever I’m between “career” type jobs I have always taken non-career jobs. To the extent that I have a separate resume for my retail experience. Also it keeps a bit of money coming in and you can learn some useful skills.

        1. Mellow*

          Yep. My profession, librarianship, is very patron-facing (depending on the role within the library), and, while looking for a professional position, I cashiered 30 hours a week at a well-know retailer. Kept up my bills and my customer service skills, with room to take off a day or two to travel to interviews.

          I also got over my fear of flying in the process. :D

          1. NothingIsLittle*

            Congrats on getting over your fear of flying! It was reception work that got me over my fear of phone calls.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      WeWorkRemotely
      EdSurge

      Even just searching Twitter for hiring remote and then sorting by recent, instead of “top” tweets.

      1. 8DaysAWeek*

        Just an FYI about Flexjobs. I applied for something there to do on the side, part time. Once I got the role, sent in my W4s, etc I was informed that I needed to use my personal social media accounts to do the job. I couldn’t create new/fake accounts. The job was related to social media and I had just (wrongly) assumed I would be using a company account or create new accounts. I wrote a resignation letter immediately.
        So depending on the role, find out if you need your own equipment, email address, social media account(s), etc.

      1. Lilysparrow*

        It’s kind of a nightmare finding decent pay rates there, though. They really cater to bottom-feeders and cheapskates.

        1. Scout*

          Yeah, they do. If you find the right job though, it’s good. I’ve gotten a few gigs that paid really well.

    5. MHK*

      LinkedIn! Search “job title remote” I have found a lot of openings that have a location listed, but in the summary, it states they can be remote, work from home. THat’s how I recently found my WFH job.

  23. Master Bean Counter*

    Dear recruiter from all the way across the country,
    If you are truly interested in me don’t answer what’s the pay range for this position with, ‘We are flexible what salary are you looking to make?” I’m not into wasting my time. Especially for a move that far that doesn’t put me on the beach.

    1. Easily Amused*

      I live in upstate NY – so upstate that we’re closer to Canada than NYC and yet I get so many LinkedIn messages from recruiters telling me about jobs in Midtown Manhattan or “you can work out of the NJ office”. I want to write back, “please have a look at a map and then let me know if you still think I’m the right candidate for this.” Frustrating.

  24. Notthemomma*

    My (remote) boss called the other day and ‘wanted to give me a heads up’.
    Whelp…expecting something bad, very bad.

    Friends, he told me to take the corporate card and go have a nice dinner with someone- $100 limit!!!!! As an extra appreciation for some special projects I’ve knocked out of the park. Better than the normal ‘recognition’ that gets taxed :-). and of course, I got it in writing too….

    4. Blueberry Smoothie*

      Excellent!

      It’s always nice to hear of employers thanking employees for going above and beyond.

    5. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Wonderful! We don’t get enough happy stories like this on the open threads! Enjoy!

    6. Adlib*

      That’s so great! Makes me miss my old boss. My current boss is cool, but I’m still new so haven’t gotten to know him very well yet.

    7. A. Schuyler*

      How lovely! I had a similar conversation with my boss many times removed when I was unexpectedly called into his office recently. Now I just need to figure out how best to treat myself (+1).

  25. JennyFair*

    Okay, talk to me about internships.

    I’m 44 and a chem major. I’m midway through my BS, been going part-time for a while and now I’m quitting my job and moving away to finish via an integrated BS/MS program. I’ve heard internships for summer begin opening up in the fall, and kind of feel like I have no idea how to sell myself that far in the future. And also I’m twice as old as everyone else. (But I’m not responsible for anyone but myself, and think it would be fun to take a summer internship in a place I’ve never been before)

    I’m sure there’s other stuff I don’t know, too.

    1. College Career Counselor*

      Depends on the industry and location (assuming you’re in the U.S?). Internships for finance/banking/consulting often start opening up as early as September for the following summer. That is rather less likely for, say, pharmaceutical companies, which might have an early deadline in December and not make offers until February. Or they might not post until January and make offers in late March. What type of internship are you potentially looking for? Bench research in corporate biotech? Overseas university research (google DAAD and research internships in science & engineering or Pasteur Institute summer undergraduate research internship)? You may want to consult your advisor about Summer Undergraduate Research Fellowships or Research Experiences for Undergraduates that focus on science, if that’s your thing. Good luck!

      1. JennyFair*

        Thank you! I want to end up in research so I’d like a research related internship. I’ve spent my life next door to a national lab, so that’s kind of what I’m familiar with, to the exclusion of other things.

        1. 8DaysAWeek*

          I work in Pharma and just saw some postings at our company for internships and I thought that was strange because school is starting up. I know we hire extremely early for summer internships, I just didn’t know when. My company provides housing in some cases, so I guess they want to hire quickly so they can get that in order.
          For my company, the internships are posted on our company’s career section of the website just like the other positions.

        2. ChemProf*

          Chemistry professor here! If you want to end up in a research-related job, the best thing you can do is find an opportunity to work in a research lab. Be aware that most research-related jobs require a PhD, although there are some lab technician positions that don’t. (If you do decide to get a PhD, any reputable program will offer you a stipend if they want you to come, so no additional debt there)

          If you have an academic advisor, talk to them when you first get to campus about how undergraduates in your department can get involved in research. Best case, the BS/MS program you’re transferring to has faculty who do research. If they do, there’s probably information on the department website or on their individual websites about what they do. In my current department, undergrads directly email the professors they’re interested in working with, and a lot of undergrads do research 5-10 hours a week during the academic year. In the department where I got my BS, undergrads put their preferences on a list and were assigned to professors by the department. If there aren’t research opportunities on campus, your department may have connections to REU programs elsewhere.

          Being an older student shouldn’t put you at a disadvantage if you show that (1) you’re willing to learn, even from people younger than you, (2) you have a strong work ethic, and (3) you can articulate why you’re interested in research (and why specifically with the professors you’re talking to).

          One other question… are you interested in research as a default or because you’re interested in learning how to approach difficult, complicated problems that may take months or years to solve? Research can be very rewarding if it’s the right fit for you, but it’s definitely not right for everyone. There are a lot of non-research chemistry careers, and research shouldn’t be the default for most people.

          2. Hamburke*

            I was going to say look for summer research internships within the college! It’s what I did! That was probably my favorite summer! I wasn’t directly a part of the program hosted at my college but I spent the summer converting the highly technical instrumentation instruction manuals into usable documents and prepping and running spectra for the research students and a professor who was publishing a textbook – nmr, mass-spec, gc, uv-vis. I was given room & board and research class credit and I TA’ed the summer lab classes on the side for cash.

            There was a 30-something in the program and it was lovely to have her!

        3. StillAChemist*

          Not sure if you’re still checking this since I’m getting to it so late, but the national labs do internships fall/spring/summer with the summer deadlines being after the beginning of the new year. As far as I know most REUs at universities have similar deadlines.

    2. AnotherLibrarian*

      I have supervised interns that range from 20s up to 60s. The difference between the good older interns and the problematic older interns has been that some of my older interns have believed that because they have been highly ranked in their field they think they know how things work in my field. They are usually wrong. So, I would say when you go to interview, be extra aware of that. And good luck!

    3. Person of Interest*

      I too was a 40-something intern when I was working on a masters degree; it was honestly a great experience and a chance to flex some of my other work skills that were appreciated by the organization – I got to take on more responsibility/projects that they probably would not have given to a college-aged intern. I think this made me much more competitive for a job offer at the end of my internship (I got an offer but ended up with a better offer from another org). So I say go for it, and try to go for a place that you ultimately might like to work long-term because you’ll have a great shot at it! Start applying during the semester before you want to intern.

    4. YuliaC*

      Might be also worth it to see if any of the faculty need student research assistants for the summer. I was also 40-ish in a biology BS, and had no success getting into internships (I think because of my non-standard age). But I had a summer assistant job with on of my profs, which was easy to get because the prof knew that I was a very good worker. That summer job helped enormously with eventually finding my current research job.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      Are you interested in academic research or just industry research? I was in the sciences, but not chemistry, so this may not apply: Talk to professors with labs in your school. They often are hiring students to do work in the lab, which can often lead into your own project.

  26. DC*

    So, I leave my current job in 4 days for a much better one. Yay!

    However, in transitioning out, they have decided to severely downgrade my role when I transition out. I’m also struggling with our assistant actually completing tasks and job duties so I can complete certain close out items.

    I think the downgrade is a negative step backwards for the organization, and will prevent future growth. I also don’t foresee this assistant doing well in the interim. (I’d brought up my issues with their work in the past, as it’s a pattern, and nothing was done.)

    Do I care? Do I tell the org what I foresee, and that I disagree with their choices? I wasn’t consulted on any of it. Or do I just let it go because it’s no longer my circus or my monkeys?

    1. Regular commenter*

      Not your circus.

      Doesn’t it make ya wonder though, “What did I bust my butt for when I was here?”

      Think about all the stuff you learned at this job and realize, YOU get to keep that part. You get to keep the part that you grew while working there. We don’t have to be altruistic all the time, we can choose to celebrate our own gains.

      1. DC*

        Yes! 100%! When I came in, there was nothing, and I built this piece of their business that they are now well known for around town solo. To have it downgraded when I’ve left plans for how to continue to grow just makes me wonder why they hired me, and why I put in so much effort.

        Thank you :) Gonna write that last bit down and keep it with me.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Yeah, for better or for worse, it’s no longer your circus. Especially since you’ve brought up problems in the past and been ignored, it doesn’t sound like things would be any different this time. The one thing you might do, if you’re feeling kind, is give the assistant a heads up about the challenges you anticipate for them. But again, only if you feel like it, and only if you feel like it would help them in their new role. If neither of those things is true, then you can head off to your new job with a clean conscience. Good luck!

      1. DC*

        Thank you! I’ve given them as much a heads up as I can, and I’m leaving the next month of duties mapped out step by step- there’s not much else I can do.

        I appreciate the validation to walk away!

    3. ProbablyNotASandwich*

      There is nothing you can do here – if they’d wanted your opinion, they’d have asked for it (and plenty of good organisations do ask for leaver’s input on their succession). So: not your circus, nor your monkeys.

    4. Ama*

      I think you can mention it once in the context of “I have concerns that downgrading this role is going to make it harder for my successor to get their work done effectively,” but leave the assistant out of it (not your problem any more) and if they don’t seem interested, don’t push.

      When I left my last job, my boss knew part of the reason was that my reception work had ballooned as our office had grown from 15 people to 75 and I had too many other things on my plate to go with it. So their big plan was to bring in a half time receptionist, meaning my role would still have to cover reception half of the time. I told them I thought there was more than enough reception work for a full time receptionist, but they didn’t want to hear it so I let it drop.

  27. Regular commenter*

    A question about law books.

    So we get annual supplements to our hard cover law books. The pages of the supplements are “stitched together” but there is no cover at all, no soft cover and no hard cover on the supplements. You are supposed to put them in the hard cover book related to that section of law. A supplement for criminal law would go in the criminal law book, for example.

    Well, you can see where this is going. After a couple years you cannot put more supplements into the hard cover book with out ruining the binding or worse. As it stands now, the supplements are loose on the shelf, running amok unorganized and getting ruined.

    The vendor providing the supplements does not seem to offer an alternative forms of storage/organization for the supplements.

    Does anyone have any ideas/recommended products/first hand experience with how to rope in these free-ranging supplements?

    Thanks in advance.

      1. valentine*

        Ask your local library for advice.

        I don’t suppose a folder box (one sloped edge, top or side entry) per book/supplements is practical.

        2. kittymommy*

          When I worked for attorneys this is what we would do. The biggest hurdle was making sure they got put back in the right order (or even the right box)!

    2. Anonariffic*

      Not sure if law books and supplements are a strange size, but what about those magazine files/holders that are like partially open boxes? You can label them by date and type of law.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          This is a great time of year to find magazine boxes because of back-to-school (assuming you are in the USA). I think I’ve even seen them at the dollar store as a seasonal item.

          Depending on how thick your supplements are, you could also use the magazine holders for 3-ring binders (they have 3 holes and then a long slot for you to thread a magazine or piece of sheet music through without hole punching it) and keep each set in a 3 ring binder. This would be better for keeping them in order (since if you keep them in one of those magazine boxes people may just put them back in the box without putting them in the right place in order within the box) but more cumbersome if people usually only need to look at one supplement rather than the set of related supplements. This would be more expensive than the magazine boxes but cheaper than having them bound into actual hardcover books (I assume – I’ve never had anything bound).

      2. Person of Interest*

        Second the cardboard magazine files solution – this is what I’ve always done for wrangling journals and supplements and such. They are super cheap and easy to label.

    3. Art3mis*

      Are you sure everything is meant to stay together? I used to have to manage similar books and every shipment was an update, you removed some pages and put in the replacements. It was annoying, I thought an online form would be more efficient.

      1. Regular commenter*

        Yep the pages are meant to stay together, they are sewn together like you would expect a bound book to be sewn together.

        We have the other type of system also. Where the pages are in a binder and you get sent replacement pages each year. So you replace random pages, such as pages, 10, 93, 204 etc. These pages have holes punched so they can go directly into their binder.

        The problem child, is a bound book with pockets in the back. But it’s so easy to fill the pockets. It only take about 2-3 years and the pockets are fill.

    4. Natalie*

      If you can throw a little money at the problem, maybe a custom binder could pull them apart and rebind them as two volumes for you.

      1. Regular commenter*

        See, this is what I thought. But Boss wants to keep everything. sigh. It’s a good thing she is a cool boss, it makes me willing to write into blogs on my day off and find advice for us. ;)

        1. Another JD*

          I’d advise against keeping the previous pocket parts. It’s too easy to grab the wrong one. Plus the instructions for updating the set specifically say the new pocket parts replace the old ones.

          But if she insists, alligator clip the top and bottom of the old pocket parts to hold them together and put them on the shelf after the correct volume.

          1. LadyByTheLake*

            I agree with Another JD — Make sure to write “OBSOLETE” on the cover of the old ones and put them somewhere else but not in the book.

        2. Bagpuss*

          Keep the current ones in the binder. If Boss wants you to retain the old ones, can you just put them into a box and put it into archiving listed as “Goldfish Law Supplements 2007-2008” . That way, you’re keeping them as your boss requires, but the one you are actually likely to need are available.
          If Boss won’t let you archive them, then a labelled box is the next best option.

        3. Joielle*

          Yeah, I’m pretty sure it even explains that somewhere (I think on a little card in the package? I haven’t unpacked supplements for a while but I remember having instructions on what parts to throw out)

    7. Coverage Associate*

      We literally threw away almost all our law books last year. We just use west law.

      Are you sure the supplements aren’t cumulative? I know a lot of legal publications have a first edition and then the annual supplements update everything that differs from the first edition.

    8. Justme, The OG*

      I used to work in my university library in book conservation, and this is exactly the kind of thing that would get a stitched cover or a box.

    10. Mid*

      I know exactly what you’re talking about–those things are high-key annoying, for students, professionals, and librarians. And if you work with students, it makes sense that you want to keep all the supplements.

      The best solution I’ve seen is laminating the covers of the supplements (or just use packing tape) and then hole punching them and putting them in a binder next to the law book. We put them in reverse chronologically, so the newest one is on top. If you want to get fancy, you can make the spine insert of the binder match the law book in question, so it’s visually easier to tell which binder goes to which book. We used a three-inch binder. For some of the older books we’d have two binders, and just write the dates on it (e.g. Law Book X, Binder 1, Supplements 1992-2002. Law Book X, Binder 2, Supplements 2003-Present.)

      Laminating helps make it easier to flip through the stacks of supplements, and helps them last longer, even though they’re also in a binder.

  28. Watermelon M*

    Agh, I’m so frustrated (with myself too.) I have been trying to leave my toxic job (just an hour ago we had a welcome breakfast for a new employee and they said to her “Haha, you’ll probably leave soon anyways like the rest of them.” They said the same thing to me and here I am 9 months later thinking that was just an off joke.)

    I’ve applied to 10 jobs in total over those 9 months, mostly because jobs haven’t been super abundant in my field in this location, and also I want to go to a job I’ll stay in for a longer time. And I’ve gotten zero interviews. I feel like chopped liver. A few have definitely been stretch jobs, but I’ve been following Alison’s resume and cover letter advice and gotten mentors to look over it too!

    Ironically, I used the same resume 9 months ago to find my current job, and I got so many more interviews back then! For this same area, before I even moved here. So I feel like my chances of employement would’ve been lower than now when I was long distance. For reference, I’m near Denver and I hear the job market is competitive here. Sigh. Still feel like chopped liver.

    1. Sloan Kittering*

      Sadly I have heard that having a very recent hire on your resume makes people look at you askance. They may think you’re a job hopper who will leave their job quickly too. I don’t suppose you can leave off the date of hire or something?

      1. Watermelon M*

        Yeah, I feel like that may be part of it! I was at my last job for 2 years and before that just finished grad school, so this would be my only off job. Hmm would it look strange to leave off the date of hire? Just put “current job” on my resume? I guess it would not work on online applications. I think once I make it a year here that finding a job will be a little more fruitful… I hope.

        1. Frankie*

          Don’t leave off the date of hire–that’s definitely going to look like you have something to hide.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      I’ve found that certain jobs run in cycles. A bunch of relevant jobs will pop up in January because the company was waiting to post the job next year. And then they pop up in March because some companies were waiting for the end next year, but it took 3 months to approve the job.
      Then a bunch of jobs will pop up at the start of the new quarter after budgets are updated.
      Then silence in the winter.
      Just keep looking, I bet there will be a week where a handful of matching jobs will suddenly pop up!

      1. Watermelon M*

        I will! Sometimes I did see an abundance of jobs during one part of the year, maybe after the holidays it will be better!

    3. Another worker bee*

      Hi fellow near-Denverite!
      Can confirm, job market here annoys me too most of the time. Lots of openings for my field but even from short interactions they look even more dysfunctional than the job I’m trying to leave (which looked totally normal from the outside). it just feels like every company is either small and disorganized and pivots constantly (looking at you, CurrentJob), or so large that they are paralyzed by their own bureaucracy (I’m looking at you, OldJob in a northern suburb that shall remain unnamed)

  29. Claudia Kishi*

    My boss got promoted to a director position a couple months back and has many more responsibilities and reports. he went from two/three to 14 or something. He understandably is hiring a couple new lieutenants. I have a really great relationship/friendship with him, and we are planning my career together here, but for right now I don’t have a “senior” in front of my title. So when his new hires start I’m going to be reporting to one of them instead of him. He said me and him will still have 1:1 meetings and probably maintain that same relationship in a way, but I feel pretty bummed. I don’t want another layer put between us cause i consider him something of a mentor. and I’m afraid that people will perceive me as more junior, with this extra layer of reporting.

    1. Transitioning-ish*

      Tell him this if you haven’t already. Maybe something can be worked out, or maybe he’ll then know to put extra language around your position (written and verbal) to make it clear to everyone that this does not mean you’ve been rocketed down to a more junior level.

      I’d have the same concerns.

      1. Product Person*

        I disagree–to me it’s clearly a promotion for the boss, not a demotion for the direct reports who will now have a new supervisor only because the original one now has move up a level and now has more people reporting to them.

  30. DaniCalifornia*

    If you have an awesome recruiting team can you send them a gift basket or Edible Arrangements or Tiffs Treats? Is this okay or professional? The recruiters I’ve met with before basically all did a quickie interview and I’d never hear back. But this new team has really pushed for me and gone above and beyond to help me find a new job. I’m almost to the finish line of final interviews/offers (some formality meetings to be had) and I’d love to show my appreciation to this team of people who advocated for me.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Really? I feel like bribery is something very strong and usually happens beforehand. This would be after I’ve accepted the job offer and started at a new company. Like a few weeks in, I don’t want to send it now because I don’t have the job yet.

        1. Lemon Zinger*

          Ah, you said you haven’t gotten the offer yet so I assumed you were talking about sending the gift now. It’s definitely inappropriate at this stage, but less weird if you did it after being hired.

          1. DaniCalifornia*

            Ok glad I clarified! Reread my initial post and I didn’t specify there so I see where you’re coming from. Thanks!

    2. CAA*

      Assuming these are outside recruiters, then after you start your new job, send thank you notes that mention the specific things they did to help you and cc their managers. It’s a little odd to send a gift, but if you must, then go with something small and edible that is not too extravagant. Remember, they’re getting paid a percentage of your salary if you stay there for a few months, so it’s in their best interests to place you in the highest paying job where you can be successful.

      If they’re internal recruiters who are employees in the HR department at your new company, then definitely do not send a gift. It’s fine to send a short email that says something like “thanks very much for all your help during the hiring process. I’m really excited about starting at company X and look forward to seeing you around / working together / whatever makes sense in your role.”

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m assuming these are 3rd party recruiters? I’ve been fortunate enough to receive a few gifts over the years wine, cigars, champagne (that was cool) and a few other things. If you wanted to do something similar that would be nice. In all honesty, a hand written card would be more than enough and will last far longer after the treats are consumed. I personally keep the thank you notes I’ve received over the years on my desk and I like to look at them from time to time when I get down job wise and need a pick-me-up. Recruiters get a terrible rap and people assume we’re all scumbags looking to screw over everyone so being told, “Thanks for helping me through my career transition” would probably go over really well.

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Yes these are 3rd party recruiters! I will definitely be sending a hand written note, thank you!

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      If they’re recruiters from outside the company, sure! Otherwise a heartfelt thank you note is more appropriate.

    5. Heidi*

      If there is a mechanism to send feedback to their managers, that might have a real impact on promotions and the like. My office gives out little gold star pins if clients fill out a card saying we did a good job, and other employers might have an employee of the month program that gives out prizes, etc.

    6. OhBehave*

      If there are enough people to eat an Edible Arrangement, do that! The fruit doesn’t have a long shelf life. Other gift baskets are fine too. Maybe a breakfast basket (muffins, ground coffee, etc.) Definitely a note of thanks as well.
      I make gift baskets for clients to give their colleagues. I made chocolate brains to put in one set of baskets (neuro practice). It was fun to hear their excitement and laughter over the brains. LOL

  31. MissGirl*

    How do people handle anxiety around the interview process?

    I already have generalized anxiety I’m working on but interviewing amps it up. The funny thing is I have a good job; I’m just looking for my next career step. I’m plagued with guilt in meetings when we talk about projects I’m in charge of that will go through December. The idea of change sends me screaming into the night. I’d be relieved to be rejected but then sick about being less-than. I’m terrified of making the wrong decision and the little gremlin voices in my head takeover.

    1. Quill*

      To be honest, until meds? I sort of didn’t.

      Now I know when to bump up my meds and also am working on how to prep other things so I’ll have less total to worry about

      1. MissGirl*

        Unfortunately, I did try meds over the winter and they came with a wealth of side effects that I’m not keen to take on again.

        1. Quill*

          Yeah, that one sucked. The prepping other things ahead of time might still work? Personally I didn’t have the function to pull it off before meds, but I come by my anxiety at least partially from my consistently overpacked and fifteen minutes early mother. Being a walking supply station seems to help her.

        2. Joielle*

          Ignore this if it isn’t helpful, but for my generalized anxiety I’ve been taking a low dose of beta blockers, which (my doctor tells me) have a fewer side effects than some of the more typical anxiety meds. They don’t deal with the emotional aspects of anxiety, but they do wonders for just the physical effects – I used to have panic attacks a lot, and now I take a pill when I can feel the pounding heart starting and it starts to fade quickly and usually goes away within a half hour. I just take them as needed (no withdrawals or anything if you stop taking them) and will bump up the dose a little before an interview or presentation to handle nervousness/shaky voice.

          Sorry if this is annoying advice since you already mentioned not liking meds – just thought I’d mention it in case you have any interest in trying something different!

    2. irene adler*

      First, dispense with the guilt over the possibility of leaving projects before they are complete. Project heads leave projects (and jobs) all the time. They will be fine – although they will express disappointment at your departure. Be a sport and prepare things so the person who takes over will be able to do so relatively seamlessly. Doing this should assuage your guilt as well.

      Vet the prospective job/company very thoroughly. Trust your gut. No job will be perfect. There will be aspects of the job you won’t care for. And other aspects you adore. But that’s the case now, right?

      If you wish to grow, advance to the next career step, then you must step outside of your comfort zone and endure some change. As a long-term self-improvement project, find ways to step outside your comfort zone in other areas (learn a new skill, travel to a place you’ve never been before, that sort of thing). Show yourself that you can handle change and that you’ll be okay doing so.

      1. MissGirl*

        I know it’s part of business so I need to let go of the guilt. No one is indispensable. And as for the comfort zone thing, next month I’m going on my first overseas trip.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      You have this set up so you can’t win. I know. I have done this to myself also.

      If you get the job, then you feel guilty about Old Place.
      If you don’t get the job, then you feel like crap about you.

      It’s time to pretend you are talking to a friend. You would never present these statements to a friend, right?

      Map out how you would discuss this with a friend. I am not going to give you all the words, because thinking about this is super important and many of the details are unique to you. So figure out how you would help a friend work through this.
      Here’s a few talking points:
      1) Know WHY you want to change jobs. Be able to say it out loud. It’s fine to have one explanation for your personal life goals and another formal explanation that you use with your employer. This happens, it’s okay.

      2) Deliberately decide that you are going to change jobs in a strategic and practical manner. When you pick a job you are going to know your reason WHY you are picking that job. You are not going to take some random job and hope for the best. Figure out what ranges you think would be a job offer that you would consider.

      3) Since you have a good job, you can afford to be choosy. Enjoy that luxury. And use it to your advantage, in other words, be choosy. When we know we are going toward something that is even better for us it is much easier to move forward with the plan.

      4) Find one or more trusted people in your life who will let you bounce ideas off of them. Or post here as you go along. When you get specifics about a particular job, talk it through with someone.

      1. MissGirl*

        Thanks, I need to remember if I choose to take this job, it will be because it’s a good offer and a good decision. If I don’t, I’m not out anything.

    4. BigRedGum*

      xanax. it’s my script, it’s very low and a 30 day supply lasts me 3-4 years, so i’m not abusing it. but that’s how.

    5. Earthwalker*

      Treat it as a practice interview with the idea that it will help you do a terrific job on the next real interview. Don’t aim to get the position but make it a game to do such a great interview that you can go home glowing and be proud of it, never mind what the interviewer may think. That will take some of the desperation out of your feelings and out of your voice. It sounds backward but if you can make yourself believe that you really don’t care about nailing this job you have a better chance of doing a great interview and getting it.

  32. second chance at interview I bombed*

    After a long ass process (govt job: applied in February, written test in April, oral exam in June and another panel interview on Tuesday), yesterday I got news that I got the job and I’m getting promoted! Wahoo!! I don’t have a start date yet as management has to work out the particulars but I’m freakin’ pumped. Happy Friday, everyone!

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Good grief, that is a ridiculously long process. But congratulations for finally getting the job!

      1. second chance at interview I bombed*

        Right? That’s government for ya. I saw downthread you also got a job offer. Heck yeah, congrats to you, too!

  33. StrutAlong Maggie*

    Any recommendations for how to emotionally “divest” yourself from your job? The last few months I’ve come to realize I’m overly invested and work takes up a lot of space in my emotional life. I work at an academic library where the tendency is to keep giving . .

    1. Purt's Peas*

      My biggest advice would be to create a transition ritual after work, where you stop thinking about your job and start thinking about your life, and then don’t really talk about work stuff at home. Funny stories about your coworkers if you can handle it, but no describing your current projects to your partner, no work talk with colleagues you see socially.

      Transitions could be, listening to a very absorbing audiobook on your way home; grocery shopping; exercising; changing out of work clothes; watching the latest episode of a particular youtube series; whatever.

      In terms of being less invested in things like management screwups, or a project being mishandled, I think a bit of distance in your personal life WILL do a lot; if you’re fresh and emotionally healthy, you can handle a lot more with forbearance if not with patience.

      Good luck!

    2. Natalie*

      In addition to Purt’s Peas good suggestions, what do you have going on in your life besides work? Having interesting hobbies or activities could crowd out work a bit, so to speak.

      1. StrutAlong Maggie*

        Thanks, Purt’s Peas and Natalie. These are good suggestions. I like the idea of the transition ritual and setting limits on topics of conversation. My social circle is largely work related, so I’m going to have to work on boundary setting. I think my hobbies tend to lend themselves to ruminating (if I’m reading and something is bothering me at work, I end up being unable to focus), so trying to find something more absorbing to drive work out of my mind would be good.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      One job was so bad for me, I established a set time (8 pm) that I would not allow myself to think or talk about the job. My go-to reminder was, “I will not fix this at this hour of the day.” I said that each time I fell off the wagon. I made myself read a book on a subject that I wanted to learn more about. This tended to reinforce shutting off work as the topic had nothing to do with work. I did get into the swing of it and eventually learned to look forward to 8 pm.

    4. zora*

      When I had this problem I worked on a visualization of a physical “Caring Button” Like a big red switch I imagined. And when something frustrating happened, I would close my eyes and picture myself literally switching the Caring Button to OFF. “I have turned off my caring button, I don’t care about this” And then was able to focus on what I could actually accomplish or do something about. Took some practice, but the more I did it the more quickly it worked!

      1. StrutAlong Maggie*

        Thanks Not So NewReader and Zora. I think the enforced substitution of something to focus on is a good way to deal with the “okay, how do I NOT think about…” issue and the Caring button visualization made me smile. I can see myself enjoying mentally saying “nope” to a concern.

    5. Quinalla*

      I haven’t done it overall, I still care very much about a lot of my job, but I have been very successful with not caring about certain things. I don’t envision a giant caring switch like zora (that is great!), but I’ve learned to mentally let go as I’ve realized that I don’t have the time or energy to care about EVERYTHING. I’ve decided to focus on the things that are most meaningful to me and/or where I’m the only one or the best one to do something about it. I also remind myself that X task has advocates already, I’m better focused on Y where I’m the strongest advocate or Z that is meaningful to me or affects me a lot. This has helped me a ton!

      I also keep a someday/maybe list (from GTD) of things I might want to tackle in the future. That helps me to move them mentally to my “not now, but maybe later if I have time/energy to spare” bucket.

      Good luck!

      1. StrutAlong Maggie*

        Thanks. I love the someday/maybe list. Part of the issue is wanting to tackle all the things. And then there are more things…so my mind is able to switch from thing to thing to thing and I feel worse about the things I’m not doing. Making an agreement with myself that, yes, that’s a cool thing, but it goes on the later list might help.

    6. i forget the name i usually use*

      I think setting an emotional/energy like that just takes practice. When you find your mind seizing on something, be really deliberate in letting it go and not caring. I can’t really “trick” myself into not caring until I create that distance of it not immediately taking over my thoughts.

      1. StrutAlong Maggie*

        Thanks. Yes, this is what I find difficult…how to create the distance. This morning I was thinking about how I maybe even saying “I work at a library” rather than “I’m a librarian” might help shift my wiring, but it will take more than that.

  34. horribledynne*

    Hi! I’m in a weird position right now and would appreciate some advice: I’ve put in notice with my current company but agreed to keep working part-time remote until they found a replacement. Through an admin error, they kept paying me my full salary for another week or two after when they should have stopped and I should have been clocking time (I wasn’t able to clock in, which I mentioned to them, but HR said they had a backlog, wouldn’t be able to process the change for a while, and that I should just wait and they’d get to it). Now, my boss is telling me not to log any time for this week so that my pay “evens out–” i.e., the salary I wasn’t supposed to get will be balanced by me not being paid at all for this week. Though it seems technically like this should be fine, there’s a part of me that just doesn’t feel quite right about it. I don’t think it’s worth making a fuss since I’m on my way out anyway, but curious if anyone here has thoughts about this (other than that my HR department needs to get its act together)?

    1. valentine*

      If you’re keeping the money and that’s easier than owing them, yeah, it’s now a retainer, and a good thing, too, or you would’ve had to stop working until they got their act together. This avoids awkwardness. But do put an end date on your time, unless you trust them not to drag out the hiring or you don’t mind and you feel confident about cutting back if it interferes with your new job.

    2. Bear Shark*

      That would feel off to me too. What if HR or someone goes back and wants you to pay back the overage but now you don’t have any time logged for this week so you don’t have any proof that this balances out. I’d tell them that you are fine with correcting the previous weeks’ paychecks (maybe leave unsaid that it’s on them to get their act together on that) but you’re not ok with intentionally submitting incorrect time. Then just make sure you hold back the extra salary previously paid so that you can pay that back if/when they finally get their act together.

      1. CAA*

        Yes, this. They need a proper record of actual hours worked in order to handle future audits. If you still can’t clock in and out, then at least make a paper time card, sign it and ask them to put it in your personnel file (I’d also do this retroactively if you haven’t already). Also keep really good records for yourself so that when they ask you for money back, you’ll be able to verify their calculations.

        They do have a right to get back the full amount of the overpayment, including the part that they didn’t actually give you because they sent to the IRS as taxes on your behalf; so make sure to save up more than the extra money you actually received so that you can pay them back when they ask for it. You’ll get the part they sent to the IRS back when you file your 2019 tax return next year.

      2. The New Wanderer*

        Yes, log your time one way or another and make sure it is on the record. They can treat the overpayment as a credit, maybe, but if something else gets screwed up, make sure it’s on their end and not yours. I mistakenly had vacation paid out once and they were able to reverse it on my next few paychecks. Stuff happens, it’s on them to fix it.

    3. SarahKay*

      I would worry that they’d correct the over-payment and then not pay you for the week you didn’t book time for. If you do go down your boss’s suggested route, my suggestion would be to agree it all in writing with HR and your boss first.

      I work with managers who can go a little…let’s say, ‘off-piste’, when it comes to this sort of thing and it tends to make HR tear their hair out trying to fix this manager-suggested-solution that’s actually just complicated everything hugely.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      Get this in writing from your boss.
      Ask your boss to contact HR so everyone is on the same page.

    5. Mellow*

      I agree with others you should log your time accurately.

      Even though you’re on your way out, if you were injured while on company time, and the company’s records showed you weren’t on the clock, you might be unable to claim worker’s compensation.

      Not worth the risk, IMO. Log your time accurately.

  35. CustServGirl*

    I applied to a new job with a different company early this week, and the next morning received a thank you email with a question from the director (think something relevant; like for the role of teapot designer the question was to provide examples of what I see to be successful designs). I responded with what I thought was a well-thought out but not overly wordy response, and haven’t heard anything since. Someone please help me chill out and remember that if they want to interview me, it may still take time to get a response. I want this job so badly and am so anxious that I must have come off as dumb.

    1. Blarg*

      THIS week. Not last month. It’s the only email you sent this person, but not the only one they got that they had to address.

      I sent a follow up email over the weekend after a face to face meeting and heard nothing. And then out of the blue she called me the following Friday.

      There’s your cheerleading! :)

  36. Parsley*

    I’m subscribed to a job email list where people share postings, and sometimes they’re like “If you have any questions about this position, feel free to ask!” But… usually these are people on the team or the hiring manager who are complete strangers. What would be OK to ask, if you’re about to apply to the job? I’m always tempted to ask about culture and salary, but I feel like those are usually only OK to ask once you get to an interview stage?

    2. CatCat*

      Culture seems like more of an interview question since it is more subjective and nuanced and you may want to ask follow-up questions. Salary range seems totally fine to be though. They know their range.

      1. CatCat*

        I think with “culture,” you’re just not going to get a great sense of it over email versus at an interview.

    3. lemon*

      You can keep it general. Something like, “can you tell me a little bit more about the role and who I’d be working with?” I think is fine.

      I’ve been on the receiving end of these questions after sharing a job posting for my team. Some questions I’ve been asked: how expensive are benefits, how long have I been working there, do I like the company, what’s my favorite part of the job, etc.

      Most of the time, people are just angling for a referral. And that was totally fine with me. My last company offered bonuses for referrals, so that’s why I was sharing the job. So, if someone contacted me and seemed really great and had a resume to back it up, I’d offer to refer them.

      IME, other folks seem to be comfortable giving out referrals as well. The way the convo usually goes is: I ask a question about the job, they answer, I thank them and tell them the info was helpful and I’m going to apply, and then they tell me I can feel free to use them as a referral (or ask to see my portfolio, and then offer to refer).

  37. MOAS*

    So this is happening right now. As part of training new hires, we hold mock appointments, a type of role play if say? I’m having a rough time coming up with the right scenario—there’s 2 sessions, 1 session is the typical introductory appt and session 2 at our discretion. we have had nasty or unreasonable clients but I don’t want to be overly nasty and scare off the newbie ya kno?

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      But the point is to train them to deal with nasty or rude clients, so it’s not like YOU are being overly nasty to them. They know it’s a training. If you occasionally deal with rude or unreasonable people, then including that in a role-playing exercise is doing them a service. They’d probably be far more scared if they encountered a rude client and the possibility that they might had been glossed over in their training.

      1. valentine*

        it’s not like YOU are being overly nasty to them.
        No; you are, but carry on.

        Think of various scenarios, rate them, then decide how high a rating you want to subject the person to in training.

        1. MOAS*

          Yea, in my mind I’m wondering, should I be scared that I would find it easy to pretend to be nasty?

          1. Not So NewReader*

            Yes, be scared that it’s fairly easy to be nasty.
            And then use that fear to help you stay on the track of being a nice person.

            People DO notice. I have had people say to me, “I just said something rude. And you responded graciously for no reason.” People notice this stuff and it inspires them to try a bit harder also.

        2. NaoNao*

          Role playing a rude customer is the same thing as being directly and deliberately rude to someone without their knowledge of what’s going on? That doesn’t scan to me.

          1. MOAS*

            I don’t think it is the same thing, but whenever I speak to them, I make sure to tell them the next session will be dealing with an upset client.

      2. MOAS*

        True. In addition to th standard (accounting/Bk etc) experience, we also require they have a minimum 1-2 years of CS experience so by the time they get to us in the interview stage, we have already vetted for that. During the interview, we’ve probed in to their CS background by asking for examples of “let’s say you come across a client who was upset about this, how did you handle it or how would you handle it?”

        It’s very different from when I interviewed here 8 years ago and kept getting asked “what do you do when you have an angry client?”

    2. MOAS*

      Ok, so TIFU. We actually have something formal in place to use. I asked my manager and hes like… we have a script. But hey now we can add more stuff including, how to deal with occasinoal upset clients.

  38. Matilda Jefferies*

    I got the job! This is the one I was not-so-patiently waiting for last week, after I knew they were checking references. They finally called on Monday – I say “finally,” but it was only 5 business days after my second interview. Timing really is very elastic sometimes!

    In any case, this is a manager position in my field, at an organization that literally everyone in my province knows by its initials. And the director (my new boss) called me a “unicorn” candidate, so that feels very promising! My last day at my current job is next Friday, and I start the new one on Sept 4.

    @Existentialista, thanks again for the “Hands up for goodness” distraction technique. And @The Waiting Really is the Hardest Part, I hope you got your good news too!

    1. DC*

      Hooray! Congratulations! I’m so very excited for you (and everyone else here who seems to be getting roles that we’ve all been waiting for.)

      For those still searching: it’s hard but you can do this!

    4. The Wait is Over!*

      I did! Sorry it took me a while to see this, but I’m so excited for both of us! Hooray to us both! I got word the very next Monday, pretty early in the morning and after a little dickering over salary (got a decent increase, $15k more per year than I make now) and start date (unfortunately non-negotiable past the 3rd) I accepted that day and submitted notice to current employer. I start right about the same time as you – on 3 Sep. Unfortunately, I’m working right up until Friday the 30th. We’re in the middle of something big that I am the project lead on at current employer and I wanted to give them as much time and work in getting it properly transitioned as I could.

  39. Goldfinch*

    A company recruiter said this week that it’s getting harder to get bodies in for interviews; supposedly because people are worried about jumping ship and losing tenure* going into a recession. While the economics are debatable, is anyone else seeing people getting more skittish about leaving jobs?

    *tenure being colloquial longevity, not actual academic tenure

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’d think it is because people have been finding good jobs and they aren’t interested in changing jobs anymore. Companies have become more competitive and are offering more perks and benefits. And companies are doing a better job about harassment and bullying. There used to be an attitude of “Who cares if they leave, we will find a replacement.” But I think companies are investing more in good employees and care about making them happy.

      1. Gidget*

        I don’t know if I agree with this. There is a lot of analysis out there that people are finding jobs but that in most cases people are still underemployed. And while in some industries things are starting to change, I think in many places the employers haven’t caught up with the fact that employees have more options now. And in many ways I think employees themselves haven’t recognized their increased leverage under the current conditions.

    2. SarahKay*

      I am skittish about leaving my job for exactly that reason. But I’m in the UK and we have an actual impending event (Brexit) that economists mostly seem to predict will throw our economy off a cliff, so it’s a bit different from general fears of recession elsewhere in the world.

    3. Gidget*

      I am in that boat. I was working on a transition out of my job that would have led to a couple of less lucrative months and eventual long-term stability (in this case needing to do an externship before being able to apply to jobs in the field). I am much more wary about this plan given the economic situation and the increased likelihood the long-term stable positions won’t be around when I am done with my training experience. I mean in the end I will probably still leave, but it will be scarier.

    4. Quinalla*

      Haven’t seen anything different than normal myself. I have noticed increased recruiter calls and linked-in messages recently, hmm, maybe related?

    5. Sam Foster*

      I’m actively looking for work and I’ve had at least 3 “this is great, let’s just wrap up the details, I’ll call you in two days” turn in to being ghosted, one “we’re moving the requisition to another team and circling back to this position in Q4” and more “recruiters dropping off the face of the earth” than I can count.

      I think the strong economy is a lie, job numbers are due to underemployed or enough people giving up, and I’m starting to get a little panicked.

  40. Should I stay or should I go?*

    I am looking for job search tips for engineers. I a mid-career mechanical engineer looking for product development roles. The problem I am running into is the actual search for postings. I live in Seattle where there is a high demand for software engineers. On most of the big job boards, (linkedin, indeed) if I search for mechanical engineer or product development I get 1000s of software related postings, making it very time consuming to comb through looking for anything that I might actually be interested in. Any recommendations for job boards that are more specific to mechanical engineers or search tips?

    1. Goldfinch*

      The ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers) and NSPE (National Society of Professional Engineers) both have their own job boards. The latter requires you to have your PE, though.

    2. Ranon*

      If there’s an industry specific piece of software that’s a good thing to add to a search- as an architect I’ve run into the same problem, but not many software developers use AutoCAD or Revit. You run the risk of missing jobs that use less standard options but at least you can see a decent chunk of the ones relevant to you without wading through a complete sea of software jobs

    3. RS*

      What if you do an advanced search on Indeed and in the text box that says “With the exact phrase” you type in Mechanical Engineer? Does that help at all?

    4. Aly_b*

      I’m also a mid-career mechanical engineer. In your position, I would actually spend the bulk of my time looking for companies that do that kind of product design, rather than job postings per se. If you can find the companies then you can check out their job postings from there. Honestly I would also do a little cold-emailing even if there isn’t something posted. At least in my niche, we’re in demand enough and growing fast enough that we sometimes don’t have a more senior role posted but wouldn’t turn someone down if they came to us (and were otherwise a fit and all that.) You’ll have to judge if that’s the case in your area of engineering, I don’t know product design well enough to comment. Good luck!

    5. AnotherAlison*

      I’m a project manager with a mechanical engineering background. I’ve been at my job a long time, but from what I’ve seen, LinkedIn lets you filter pretty deeply. You can limit the industry to manufacturing (or whatever is applicable for you), and maybe you still get results for software developer jobs in manufacturing, but most of what you should see should be ME-related. Having your profile 100% built out also lets LI suggest things in your feed that should be closer to your background. If you find a couple listings that are a good fit, you may be able to pick up some specific keywords to use in your search.

    6. Goose Lavel*

      Try searching for the specific Mechanical CAD package that you currently use, such as Solidworks, AutoCAD or Pro-e.
      This is how I found all the jobs that I’ve worked at in the past.

  41. Charlotte*

    LOL I was watching a show the other day and there was a plot involving someone looking for a job, the timeline went something like this:
    Day 1: character (N) applies for job that’s perfect for her and comes with amazing perks and is highly competitive. Says it’s way out of her league but thought she’d give it a shot
    Day 2: N gets a call for interview, gets dumped by her boyfriend and has a crisis of confidence
    Day 3: N’s mother convinces her to go to the interview (set for that afternoon), N goes to interview, gets the offer on the spot, job is located overseas and the new employer wants her to relocate the next day
    Day 4: N moves halfway across the world for her dream job (flying first class on company’s dime).

    I don’t know if that sounds amazing (no endless waiting! Luxury perks!) or horrifying (moving overseas with less than 24hours notice WTF?!).

    1. DC*

      Horrifying. It reminds me of the letterwriter whose job moved them around the world constantly, but didn’t set up housing, etc..

    2. AnotherAlison*

      I actually love this. People seem to get so stuck in situations that are completely changeable. I make a point to remind myself of that sometimes. My son is also starting his last year of college, and I remind him that he could have a completely different life in a year. He can live where he wants, work where he wants, drive what he wants, etc.

    3. sacados*

      Omg that’s hilarious. Also I am now super curious what show this is?
      It’s like on crime shows (*cough* L&O *cough*) how they always arrest the perp and then three days later the trial starts.

  42. Disgruntled in Seattle*

    I’m starting to feel annoyed in my department by dismissive managers. Several times have I brought up concerns for them to be dismissed only for the problem that I predicted to come to fruition. I could state for example: “I believe there is a problem with the teapot report that could affect customers down the line”. Manager: “Nah, that isn’t a concern *corporate laugh*”. A month later: “There is a problem with the teapot report that is affecting customers. let’s fix that”-Manager.
    This has happened several times and now I am at the point I don’t want to bring up anything because it will be dismissed. I think bringing up the dismissing will even be dismissed. Another example is I brought up going over the teapot reports at an open team meeting where anyone could bring up anything. Manager immediately says no that’s something you can go over alone at your desk. Suddenly it clicks in the teams mind that hey in our last cross-functional meeting I don’t think we were up to snuff while other teams seemed to have studied the report ahead of time. Suddenly everyone felt my idea was valid…..except the manager who was said: “eh”.

    Moving forward I think I will suggest nothing and do the bare minimum. Happy Friday!

      1. Kat in VA*

        I have discovered, much to my chagrin, that I am fluent in both corporate laugh and corporate speak.

        Imagine my horror the day I said “Let’s circle back to this” and meant it sincerely.

    3. Catherine de Medici*

      This is a longstanding issue we have in my office (I’m an tester for economic programs), where bugs and technical debt get ignored by management because it isn’t directly of benefit to the field. They don’t want to automate backend tasks because it would be costly in the short-term and not of “direct use” to the field and they can’t see the long-term benefits (despite being economists). Recently someone in my branch held a training around this book called Making Work Visible. I highly recommend giving it a read. Basically, if something is a pain point, document it so you can show how much of a problem it is. Oftentimes we have a tendency to go to heroic efforts to get something done because we’re people pleasers. But then management has an unrealistic idea of what is actually feasible. It’s easier to show something is a problem if you have real data to back it up.

    4. Anon for this*

      Do the bare minimum and look to move on. They obviously don’t care about actually doing a good job, vs preserving their own cushy positions. That isn’t sustainable long term. Ask how I know!

  43. VictoriaQ*

    Ok, I’ve complained about my workplace for the last couple of weeks (hopefully my job searching will soon bear fruit) but I have a slightly different question: Has anyone worked for a place that was two companies in one? I mean we’re located at the same physical address, with the same people, but on paper there are two companies because (and I asked)… tax purposes? This is a company of, at max, 20 people.

    I just don’t get it. Our inventory is constantly screwed up because no one is really managing what’s going from the first company (teapot bodies) to the second company (the teapot bodies to get spouts and lids and whatnot). Customers frequently send payment to the wrong company or pay their entire bill to one company that we have to sort out on our end by despositing and transferring and making notes and whatnot. And a lot of this could be solved… if the companies were just one company from the get-go.

    Has anyone else dealt with this?

    3. hermit crab*

      That sounds like a weird arrangement! There are ways to do it that work fine and make a lot of sense, e.g. if there’s a parent company and a subsidiary, or a 501(c)(3) nonprofit with a 501(c)(4) affiliate. But your situation sounds disorganized and kinda shady.

    4. Quill*

      My first non internship job was technically two companies – apparently the boss started doing one thing (it involved mail orders for scientific supplies) and had all his legal paperwork under that, but I guess rebranded when he started a different line of work? It was confusing and ridiculously complicated when I had to do admin-y stuff (I got stuck with IT and ordering work kind of a lot,) but I don’t think it was necessarily shady.

      No, what was shady was our plumbing setup. There was no way we should have been dealing with biosamples in that building in any way, shape, or form, because the sink you wash your scalpel handle in should not drain through a sump pump.

      1. VictoriaQ*

        Hmm that’s true, but this company started off as two companies rather than starting as one and adding a second.

        Also Quill that sounds awful, did anyone ever report it or say anything??

        1. Quill*

          At the time I didn’t know enough about… anything employment related including safety enough to say something, but my ex boss has a pattern of hiring new grads who either run or get fired after six months. So I’m pretty sure he knew he wasn’t up to code.

          Sump pump disasters were a small portion of the hell that was that job, the best thing it ever did for me was fire me.

    5. VictoriaQ*

      *sigh of relief* oh thank heavens it’s not just me. I thought it was shady too! I didn’t realize that is was two companies in one until after I was hired, and since I’m pretty fresh out of school, I didn’t realize how suspicious it was until recently. The company also does other shadyish stuff.

      For example, we produce recycled teapots in blue, and also new teapots in the same/almost the same blue. Sometimes when customers make orders, we don’t have the recycled teapots. Instead of saying something… they just slap the recycled blue label on the new blue teapots. Which, of course, are more expensive than the normal teapots. Not to mention, we’re selling to businesses, so we’re selling thousands of fake recycled teapots at once.

      1. Quill*

        Yeah, as someone who has gotten a fresh out of school job at a small company with questionable stock/turnaround/client handling practices in the past? Start looking.

        Especially if you notice that people tend to leave after short periods, or that your bosses prefer to work with teapot clients who can’t physically tour your location… or if you find yourself having to root a virus out of your computer because your boss won’t pay for an antivirus subscription.

    7. Multiple Org Anon*

      I’m in a similar situation. I work for 4 different companies/organizations owned by one and the same owner, all located in the same office. We are similar in size, too, at around 25 people. Our organizations are slightly more clear-cut than yours, in that they all do different things and accounting is set up separately so we’ve never had customers pay the wrong company, etc. I’m one of the few people here who work for multiple organizations (most people work for just the main org), and it can get weird. I sympathize!

    8. Not So NewReader*

      I can think of two companies around here that are actually a cluster of companies.

      There is a car repair place. They have two more companies, car sales and car rentals. I don’t know much about the arena, but I think they had to separate the operations for legal reasons? But all three companies are in one building and staffed by all the same people. So basically it’s a bookkeeping thing. They have operated this way for decades and everyone (including customers) knows about the companies. The staff is very clear about where money goes, such as car retail payments go to the car rental company.

      Then there is another company in a different town. They sell appliances. They have a repair department attached to the store. However, the repair department is a separate company. Again, I think this has something to do with legal. It could be as simple as insurance is cheaper this way, I truly have NO clue. Again, the company is transparent, people know the places are two separate companies.

      I don’t see anything suspicious based on what you have said so far. To me it sounds like sloppy management as employees are poorly trained how to handle this. And it sounds like customers are not being clearly told where and who to pay. But if employees do not understand how the money is handled then we can’t blame the customers.

      I do have a sloppy story. When my dad was in the hospital, he had a chart on the wall. I noticed the nurse taking stickers off of things as she gave them to my father and pasting the stickers on the chart. She explained that it was for billing purposes. I wandered over to look at the chart. The name on the chart was some other guy, NOT my father. I pointed this out. The nurse said, “Oh it does not matter. The money is all coming out of the same place anyway.”
      And this is what things look like when management does a poor job training people.

    9. ThursdaysGeek*

      I worked for a company like that too, but it wasn’t shady. They essentially were going in a new product line direction, and made a new company for that effort. When that business line didn’t work out, the new company folded, but it didn’t affect the original. There were probably tax reasons too.

      They actually had two companies and started a third, and now they are back at two companies. They are in adjacent buildings, with one company making stock for the other company.

      Oh wait, I work for a company like that now! I’m working for the overarching company, which owns subsidiaries. A few of my co-workers work for a main subsidiary, and most of my co-workers work for the local instance. The main difference is we have different email domains and I am often doing work for people in other states, whereas most of my co-workers are working to support what is done in just two local states.

      In this case, it’s because the local instance was bought out, but they wanted to keep the local branding. There are undoubtedly other reasons too. We are one company but sometimes it feels like multiple schools in one school district.

      Huh, and my last job had multiple companies too. I don’t think it is that unusual at all.

      1. ILikeMeJustFine*

        I was going to say something similar:

        My company is just now starting to be set up that way, albeit on a much smaller scale. The reason is that the two companies sell essentially the type of service but to two very different kinds of buyers. So let’s say we clean ovens. Company A has been cleaning restaurant ovens for a decade. Management realized that the same basic tools and skills are transferable to cleaning home ovens. So a second company is being set up to cater to home kitchens. It requires different sales pitches, different billing cycles, different customer service processes, etc. But basically the same people can handle either.

      2. VictoriaQ*

        That’s really interesting! I’ve personally never worked for a company that’s operated like that before. But all of those make sense.

        Unfortunately none of that really applies to this company. They make the teapot bodies, but rarely sell them, instead they’re ‘sold’ to the second company to make the rest of the teapot. I don’t think I would care that it was two companies if there was some sort of reasoning behind it other than taxes. It makes a lot more work for us. I think part of this is also that the owners withhold information a lot so we have to speculate.

        1. ABCD*

          I could see that being connected to some type of contracting fraud too especially if they aren’t open about the ownership connections

          “I’m sorry General but those tanks that were supposed to be 1 million are now 10 million. Our “supplier” for the main guns jacked the price up on us so we’re taking a bath here too”

          (FYI: investigators and bank regulators frown on this kind of business arraignment)

  44. Amber Rose*

    Ages ago I mentioned I had a boss that chewed me out for asking to use sick time for surgery. He was also prone to yelling and throwing things. This week, that boss was FIRED. Or rather, since he owned a quarter of the company, he and the board “mutually agreed” that he should leave. Everyone is shocked. Our entire management structure is being totally overhauled. Most of upper management will be newer staff members and also my manager, who is being moved up a level.

    But it was really funny, the president gathered us all in the lunch room and basically said “hey, [manager] is gone. Eat some pizza!” And there was just this deafening awkward silence where nobody moved as everyone tried to process. But Good Manager, who is very good at managing people and never gets mad or yells at anyone, is now basically taking that spot as VP, so that’s super exciting.

    Gonna be interesting to see how this all plays out for like company events and stuff, since gone manager was basically in charge of running all of our day-to-day.

      1. Amber Rose*

        I mean, he owned a good chunk of the company and was here basically since it started. According to my manager, it took them almost 2 years to accomplish this change up.

      2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        It takes time to push out a person who owns 25% of the company, you can’t just fire them the way you fire someone in customer service who is screaming at people. There’s a lot more leg work involved and the dude got paid in the end, I bet he was a jerk to get them to pay more money in the end for his shares, tbh.

    2. Quill*

      This has some “ding dong the witch is dead” vibes.

      … that said, keep in mind how long they let this go on before getting too rosy an idea of how things are going to be now.

      1. Amber Rose*

        Yeah, and I feel bad about that because he was pretty nice and gave me a lot of freedom and stuff. But he was kind of stressful to be around.

        As for the ones who let him go on for the last 20 years, most of them have now retired. All we’ve got left are two of the original six.

        1. Quill*

          Okay, so on second thought this sounds like your president is the one singing “ding dong the witch is dead, I’ve been waiting to fire him for a decade,”

          1. Amber Rose*

            I don’t think so, they’re pretty close friends. But some mismanagement of funds has come under the spotlight in the last year after an employee stole like 20 grand from us, and it became kind of obvious that the dude was not equipped to understand the books as well as he needed to provide oversight.

            I think there was a lot of pressure coming in from the other managers who were watching our profitability go to hell.

  45. Little Beans*

    If I’m the hiring manager for a position, can I encourage someone to apply without implying that they will get it? A few of our candidates withdrew for unrelated reasons so our finalist pool is not as large as I would like (although there are still strong candidates). I just thought of someone in our organization who I think could be a good fit and I want to encourage him to apply, but I don’t actually work closely enough with him to know if he’d end up being the best candidate. Would it be terrible to reach out to him and suggest he apply but also let him know that I can’t promise anything?

    2. ProbablyNotASandwich*

      I’ve been in the position of being the person encouraged – and you do need to be super clear that they’re not a shoe in for the role if they apply and you would ideally also be prepared to give properly detailed feedback if they don’t get the role, so they still get something out of the interview.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      That is pretty normal. “I think you should apply for this but I have no say in who gets hired. I do think the fit is good for you and you should try.”

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Okay, I see that now.
          Well, still okay for OP to say, “Please put your name in the hat. I have no idea who else is applying and where this will land, but I think you should apply.” OP can go on to explain that this is a way of putting it out there that the employee is interested in new opportunities. If not this one, then perhaps the next one.

  46. OyHiOh*

    Two update-ish things that belong here rather than the weekend free for all

    Decided to start a small home based bakery business. I can start under state cottage industry laws with a health department certification class and label with specific language. Bake once a week on advance orders to eliminate waste product initially, and scale up as much as I feel like over the next couple years. I’ve always loved bread baking and having gotten really good at laminated dough recently (croissants, y’all. I’m making croissants and variations thereof). I get to play with dough, people get to eat delicious things. Win-win.

    Also, a friend asked me to help plan/produce a themed arts festival for next spring. Friend is the business/numbers/money person, I’m the writer/presenter/put things in cohesive order person. We do the fundraising right, it will be remarkable for our community and good for my resume besides.

    Question: Merits and demerits regarding corporate social responsibility (CSR) – this is fairly specific to US work culture. Most of my work experience is in the non profit sector, which tends to have a love/hate relationship with corporations blazing in for a day or two a year. A lot of AAM-ers work in for profit and have strong feelings about volunteer expectations. Should the for profit world try to be socially responsible as currently understood? In what ways is CSR good/bad? Could be better? Should just drop the whole idea and be blatently capitalist?

    1. Purt's Peas*

      The biggest problem with CSR is that it usually means “employees volunteer” and not “we do not dump toxic waste in water sources, we make sure our current business minimizes worker exploitation and environmental harm, we do not sell tools of violence” and so on. Should the for-profit world try to be socially responsible? Of course! But they should do it by conducting their business ethically instead of papering over the inherently exploitative demands of international capitalism with volunteer days for their office workers.

      On a lighter note, congrats! The bakery business sounds AWESOME. And I’m jealous of your lamination skills!

      1. LCL*

        What Purt’s Peas said. Talking about corporate responsibility when you won’t pay people well and give them a decent schedule and benefits is just noise to me. If these corporations can afford to do without all their employees for a day, give the employees another day of leave. See-minding the mote in neighbor’s eye instead of the beam in your own.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Oh my. Please read on CSR. There are plenty of for profit companies trying to do things.

      The biggest hurdle is defining social responsibility. Everyone has their own ideas. And it is impossible to be responsible in every single way.

      Years ago, I looked at this from the investor side of the question. Banging my head against the wall was less painful.

      From the investor stand point, investors were advised to pick their issue (or maybe a couple issues) and invest in the companies that were working at those social issues. What was interesting to me was the sequence: pick the issue THEN pick the company. And that is because no company offers the comprehensive package of total social responsibility.

      I could not find my issue in very many companies. I wanted to invest in companies that paid a living wage to ALL employees. Yeah. Right. I gave up.

      So my thought for you is to think about issues near and dear to your heart. My friend champions elderly folk whenever she can. She’s amazing at her ability to work in to conversation, “How can we use this to help people age in place?”
      The two issues I gravitate toward are living wage and bullying. But I have another friend who is all about the opioid crisis and “let’s get some help going on here”.

      Do not aim to address every responsibility imaginable. You will sink your own business in the process. Do realize that you can do modest things in other areas such as diligently recycling or habitually hiring people local to your business. Then you can have your main focus area of where you give back or insist upon holding your business accountable on a particular social point.

      A friend does wedding gowns on consignment. She routinely does a prom gown give away thing for a certain group of young women- (young moms? troubled teens? I can’t remember.) You can tailor something that fits your unique setting.

    4. Gumby*

      CSR can be good/bad depending on what it is to any particular company and how it is implemented.

      My best experience was a company that specifically named “the community” as one of its stakeholders (after employees and customers, before shareholders). It was a small company, and did things like:
      * order lunch from locally-owned small businesses (except when we had pizza – that was a national chain, but possibly a franchised one?)
      * support other local businesses – for example, the monthly car wash that they’d pay for at a teeny neighborhood place was a popular perk
      * create paid summer internships aimed at young people from a nearby less-advantaged area to encourage them to go into tech
      * was active in trying to get other tech companies to participate in this too
      * give all employees a half-day off every month that could be used at their discretion (so I could leave “early” to do something with the at-risk youth I was mentoring – something I decided to do on my own which wasn’t company-sponsored) OR could be used at the occasional company-planned events (different each time, usually had a size limit so maybe 5 – 10 people would go to any given one, ALL volunteer, no one was really tracking so they probably never knew if you participated a lot or a little in the community service events)
      * donate to the neighborhood park beautification project (and it really needed it, but is a lovely oasis now)

      Basically, they took a holistic view and were pretty good at implementing suggestions that were offered if it could reasonably be done.

    5. i forget the name i usually use*

      I do like that my company does many small events throughout the year for 2-3 organizations. They make them fun, low pressure, usually about once every month or two. Since the orgs stay consistent, I feel like we really have a focus, AND it doesn’t feel like that “let’s swoop in for a day and then never think about it again” type of involvement.

  47. Forkeater*

    Looking for wording suggestions to tell my employee that something is not optional.

    I started a new management role earlier this year, but I am not a new manager, I do have a reasonable amount of experience, but have never met anyone quite like this employee I inherited.

    They’re outwardly very nice, and good at their job, but when often when I ask a question, or make a request, they push me off to someone else, or just don’t do it. Examples include – setting up one on one meetings with me, or sharing a data file.

    If their demeanor was different, I would assume this was coming from hostility or resistance to having me for a manager, but outwardly they are extremely warm, friendly and supportive. I suspect it’s coming from fear of the unknown, or the fact I am changing things, albeit very small things, from how they have been done in the past.

    How can I politely and professionally convey that what I’m asking is not optional for them, while still building a good relationship. I’ve had to walk away a couple times because I could feel I was getting emotional, which is a challenge for me, and I want to keep my cool when making these requests.

    1. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Are they pushing back? It’s hard to tell from what you describe, because it sounds like you ask, they get someone else to do whatever you’re asking, you get frustrated and let it slide. Don’t let it slide. It’s best to do it in the moment, but simply don’t allow them to refuse. If you’re asking this person to set up a one-on-one, and they don’t do it, then follow up. Same with tasks: “Oh, I’ll get Daphne to do it!” “No, I’d like you to do it.” Definitely keep your cool, but remind yourself that you’re the one in charge.

      1. valentine*

        If they’re saying “Daphne can do that,” and you’re walking away, it looks like you agree.

        Be sure you’re speaking plainly. No “Do you want to”/”I need someone to”/”When you get a chance”/”Can you”. Instead:
        ~Choose one of these times for our one-on-one.
        ~I need you to put a cover on your TPS report.
        ~Please place an order for 150 matte black cowhand hats and reply when done.

      2. Clisby*

        I don’t get telling the person to set up a 1:1. When I had monthly 1:1s with my manager, he told me when they’d be, and I showed up. Why leave it up to the employee? Seems like a manager’s schedule would be harder to work around.

    2. Natalie*

      Honestly, it sounds like you’re getting rather frustrated with them, and if that’s the case I think it’s more important to address this quickly than it is to craft the perfect wording. The frustration will build and make it harder to address it without getting emotional. If they suggest someone else, you can just say “No, I want you to do it.” If they don’t do something, you can ask pretty directly “why didn’t you do [task]?”

    3. Ahurryellow*

      I would ask them why they are not doing what you asked.
      Something along the lines of: I noticed that when I asked you to share the data file you did not, you had Daphne share it. Can you tell me more about that?
      This seems to help get the root of why someone is resisting. ‘Can you tell me more about that’ is a magic question in these types of situations.
      If they respond saying they thought it was optional (or some variation of that type of language), that is when you can shut that down with a ‘moving forward my expectation is X’.

    4. Not So NewReader*

      The problem is you are not building a good relationship with this person now. That is an illusion, it’s not real. This person is either afraid of you or they are ignoring your authority. So no, you do not have a good relationship with this person right now.

      If you are getting emotional, that is understandable. This means plan out what you will say. You now know that they will tell you NO. So plan your wording for that inevitable NO. Practice in front of the mirror if you want. I would, for myself.

      I can tell ya first hand, some of the nastiest people I have met appear to be very nice. Just to be very clear, this is NOT a nice person. Because the person is not genuinely kind.

      Clue your boss in as to what is going on and what your next steps are. Then tell your employee that he can no long put off meetings with you. Failure to meet with you is a failure to do his job. I would offer two dates/times to meet or even seriously consider putting my foot down and offering one time frame only.

      When he shoves your requests off on to someone else, tell him that if you wanted Sue to do X then you would have asked her. You can delegate work, he cannot delegate work. Tell him you expect him to help where asked.

      He is failing to share a data file with you. This, again, is failure to do his job. You can inform him of this. And a basic component of his job. I would be sure to let your boss know that he is falling down on these basic things.

      No, this not a nice person. This is a watch-your-back person and loop your boss in as to what is going on. He is failing to accept your leadership, he can be fired.

      (Yes, I am angry on your behalf.)

      1. ILikeMeJustFine*

        “Just to be very clear, this is NOT a nice person. Because the person is not genuinely kind.”

        I came here to say exactly this. OP implies that “hostility” is somehow incompatible with being outwardly kind and warm. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are ALL KINDS of hostility.

        This reminds me of my first management jobs. I was quite young (early 30s) and one of my direct reports was approximately 527 years old, had been at the company practically since its founding, and had a kind of salty grandma thing going on. She was very hard to work with because every request was met with a response of “Oh we tried that back in ’86 and it didn’t work. I know how to handle it. I’ll just go right over to the production department and handle it myself.” It was infuriating. I was too green back then. I would do everything differently now, including not being fooled for years thinking that she was so “nice”.

    5. Combinatorialist*

      Have you told your employee that you are deliberately making a change? They could be pushing back because there is a reason for why they did it before and figure you don’t know you are asking for something different. You can, of course, override the reason, but it might be useful to have an explicit conversation about why you want to do things differently

    6. The New Wanderer*

      I agree with NotSoNewReader that this person is not as nice and supportive as you perceive, and that they are clearly showing this to you by not doing what you ask. I would give them very specific time frames to complete tasks (“please schedule monthly one on one meetings with me, starting this month” “please send me the data file by COB”), so that you have a concrete time frame yourself to follow up if/when it is not done.

      You can do it with a smile but do not add softening language. These aren’t unreasonable requests and you’re not asking for favors. If these tasks are not optional, don’t give them any way to misinterpret what you’re asking (well, telling) them to do.

      1. Clisby*

        I said this above, but will reiterate here. Why would you tell an employee to schedule 1:1s? You tell the employee that the 1:1 is scheduled for XYZ time. That’s it, barring some true emergency that requires the employee’s presence somewhere else. I’ve never been a manager, but from my view, letting my reports schedule 1:1 meetings sounds like a nightmare.

    7. Forkeater*

      Thanks for all the feedback, lots to digest and think about. Fortunately my boss has been looped in every step of the way and completely has my back and agrees with my take on the situation.

      I think what some have said that this person is not nice is correct. If someone else were telling me the story I would have the same reaction. Maybe I will be more successful if I don’t get waylaid by the nice surface.

    8. Friday afternoon fever*

      What are you saying when you tell them to do something? How are you wording it?

  48. in the file room*

    Last day before two weeks of vacation! Just have to power through the rest of my to-do list and then I’m FREE!

    We’re taking bets on how many emails I’ll have when I get back. I think around 1200. What’s the most emails you’ve ever returned to?

    1. WonderingHowIGotIntoThis*

      Can’t remember the last time I took two weeks off together.

      But I took a day off (a single day – it was a Tuesday) and came back to just under 120 emails.

    2. ...*

      I usually have about 1400 when I return from the weekend. So if took 2 weeks off I would say ~20k?

    3. online teacher*

      This was mostly self-inflicted, but: I was at a one-day training, and that was the day our office manager learned how to put reoccurring events into our school’s online calendar in our newly-adopted LMS. (These things would be things that happened either every day or once week for the rest of the school year, and there were usually 1-4 of them on any given day.)

      Because of the way our LMS implemented reoccurring calendar events, every individual event sent me an email. 10am Llama class on Monday, 10/10: email. 10am Llama class on Tuesday, 10/11: additional email. 10am Llama class on Wednesday, 10/12: you guessed it, another email. (This is not a good way to implement email notifications for reoccurring events, if anyone reading this is curious.)

      I quickly checked my email during a 5 minute break at the training, and saw hundreds of new emails in my notifications folder for things from this LMS (which is also the folder where student messages to me would be). I panicked, wondering what on earth could be causing my students to suddenly need to send me hundreds of messages (reeeally bad sub? building on fire? sub who set the building on fire?), then started aggressively filtering and marking as read once I figured out what was going on, so I don’t have a clear total of how many messages I would have had if I’d just let them sit all day and build while I was out of the office. Definitely at least in the three digits, might have been over a thousand.

      On the bright side, they were not emails that required replies from me. I just had to make sure no actual issues got buried in the flood of guess what? 10am Llama class is also meeting on Thursday 10/13.

      On the less-bright side, these emails were not just sent to me, but anyone at our school (teachers, students, and parents) who had set up their notifications to include calendar updates. On the even-less-bright-side, I believe the default setting for anyone using the LMS’s app was to get calendar updates as push notifications…

    5. Ina Lummick*

      We came in one morning to around 1200 emails overnight….

      Luckily it turned out our auto-response and another companies auto reply just kept pinging each other back and forth the whole night and we had around 100 emails instead total.

  49. Banging my head against a wall*

    Feeling fairly deflated today. For the last 5 months I’ve been managing this very challenging part time asst. It was my first opportunity to actually manage someone and I’ve been working hard at it. Unfortunately, he’s been tough because he’s a) not super motivated to grow in the role and b) takes feedback terrible (like gets an immediate attitude). After one touch base we had a little while back, he went around me, my boss, and her boss to HR to complain about me as a manager. His complaints were that I talk too much, that I was way out of line for asking if he’d performed a certain relevant task in his previous role, that I was “trying to give him more work” (um. Not sure what to do with that—literally no one on my team thought his plate was even close to full). HR just kind of checked in but I outlined all of the work I was putting in (weekly check-ins, reviewing tasks in writing, provided feedback in a straightforward not emotional way). He’s been chronically late, makes mistakes on routine tasks that I’ve briefed him on repeatedly (built checklists for him, met with him in person to review again), tries to get out of work any chance he gets, doesn’t ever take initiative or responsibility for errors. My boss, tragically, hates the idea of ever firing anyone and so it’s taken about 8 months for me to get her the point of considering a PIP.

    Anyway, today he gave notice. My boss is out so I alerted our VP. He told me he wants to turn it into a full time role but said I may not get to manage the new hire. I am so frustrated. I feel like I got screwed with my first employee and all I want is more opportunities for growth (I’ve been a high performer on our team for the last two years, been promoted once). I’m planning to push back hard on this with my boss when she’s back but I’m seriously spiraling a little right now. This is definitely a bigger issue with our team because my boss is way too in the weeds and unwilling to let go of things/let us take on projects out of fear that if they don’t go well, it’ll come back on her (she has said this to me). And this is feeling like the final straw type of situation to me. I’m not looking for a promotion right now but how on earth do I grow if I’m not given the chance to take on new challenges???? I know that I’m smart and very capable, I have a strategic brain and enjoy the chance to solve problems. Frankly, I feel like I’ve handled this difficult employee as gracefully as I could, especially as a new manager but I’m never given the chance to voice my opinion or manage something myself (it’s my boss’ way or the highway on everything). (One fun aside, one day, he was 90 minutes late to work with no contact. Didn’t apologize or anything either when I asked him to please, in the future, let us know when he’ll be that late—this was after multiple other conversations about being on time—he was 15 minutes late 90% of the time.)

    Anyway, I can’t really focus at work right now because I’m so mad and am getting the bare minimum done and getting out of here when the summer Friday hour hits.

    1. JennyFair*

      It sounds to me like you may need to leave in order to grow, especially since this environment is not great in addition to one lousy employee being the basis for denying you your career progression.

      (And you ‘talk too much’? That’s…I don’t know what gender you are, but that’s classic man thinking a woman opening her mouth is talking too much)

      1. Banging my head against a wall*

        (Re: the talking to much YUP that’s the gender differential at play here.)

        I love the organization and their mission which is why I wish I could stay/want to stay but I just can’t stand staying on this team. The thing is they know they’d be screwed if I leave so I’m hoping that I can leverage that. My boss was actually told that in order to be promoted, she had to stop being in the weeds (she’ll have been here six years with no promotion which feels like a lot given that the role above her has been open for nearly a year!). Thank god it’s Friday and I can go home and let my anger dissipate before the ball starts rolling next week.

    2. Blueberry Smoothie*

      I don’t know how happy you are with the rest of your job overall. Some of what you write reminds me of my OldJob. I had management responsibilities, but not management authority. Skipping all of the ranting about OldJob I could do, it boiled down to my higher up not being willing to back me up with management decisions. It was undermining, demoralizing, and miserable.

      As much as it stings to hear that you may not have the opportunity to manager the new hire, do you want to manage for this company? It sounds like you have zero backing where you need it most, from your manager.

      Maybe it is time to brush up your resume and and find a place that will help you grow. That your current job will be hurt without you is not your responsibility.

      Good luck!

    3. Dr. Anonymousr*

      They’ve let your manager underperform for six years with no remedy other than dangling a promotion? This is not a great place to be. Run away.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Yes, you were not really managing because you had no authority. Real management would have meant this guy would have had write ups and so on. Compare this to how they are managing your boss and it begins to look like this is a company problem, not an immediate boss problem.

        Having seen stuff like this before, I would start to wonder if someone is lying. If they know your boss is a problem then why has it gone on for six years? Probably they don’t know the extent of the problem.

        With the boss you have now you will probably not be put into positions where you can grow. I am not real sure that the company without this boss would be much better.
        You have nothing to lose by looking around and seeing what is out there.

  50. softcastle*

    I wanted to pick up a conversation on one of Alison’s post that I thought was really interesting re: Desk Decoration.

    I work for an arts/crafts/design focused company in a corporate capacity, and I’ve been in this new position/location for a month now. I noticed that most folks (including my manager) have varying degrees of decorated desks, oftentimes with products we design or create, as well as artwork, whimsical statues or figurines, buttons and enamel pins, plants, banners, etc. I took the cue and brought in some plants as well as used some of our products to decorate my desk–it looks very hip and “zen,” but not out of place at all for our environment. Since I finished it, people from all levels have been coming to visit it, including our CEO (!), and remarking how beautiful and creative it looks. Our photography/social media department even wants to take photos of it.

    My question is, even though the responses are unanimously and overwhelmingly positive, did I, well, overwhelm? After reading Alison’s and other responses to the intern with the written affirmations, I’ve been very self-conscious! Does anyone else work in a creative position or company with a “cool desk”?

    2. Purt's Peas*

      I think you paid attention to office culture, decorated your desk in line with office culture, and did an awesome job. The biggest clue here is that social media wants to take photos–no one’s gonna do extra work passive aggressively ;)

      1. Quinalla*

        Agreed, you saw what others were doing and apparently nailed it if everyone is checking out your desk and taking pictures for social media. I could definitely see that being a thing for a creative job for sure, does not sound odd to me.

    4. LLG612*

      I wasn’t at a creative company but actually an animal welfare agency. I created a haven in my office that was slightly above what others had and suddenly everyone wanted to meet in my office, people asked if their pups could “vacation” in my dog area (totally normal to have there) and the President would bring bigwigs to my office as an example of the “homey” environment they wanted to cultivate. I’m glad I did it, even though it was a TINY bit outside of office norms. For you, it sounds like you’re exactly in line and it’s paying off!!

  51. A ninny mouse*

    I was recently awarded a promotion. It was FAST – I haven’t been at my current role for very long, but I did good work in my old role. It’s basically ‘Analyst Level A Braavos’ to ‘Analyst Level B Essos’.

    With this change, I’ve been asked to do a lot more strategy as opposed to city-level reporting. I….do not enjoy the strategy side of things, especially on a continent level, as the way it currently is, it’s very vague, lots of running around asking for data from cities, client massaging etc. I miss my old reporting work, where I was in charge from start to finish and worked independently with clean, detailed data.

    I don’t want to be the person who turns down responsibility, as I know strategy stuff is a requirement as you move up the career ladder. Any advice on how best to tackle important work you hate? The Essos team is aware of the issues,but are used to it and politics/budgets makes issues tacking the root of the problems quite complicated.

    1. Frankie*

      Are you sure you will feel this way about it forever? Is the stress related to the fact that you’re just not suited to the work, or that you don’t know it well, yet? Sometimes I feel like it takes a good year to really get comfortable with a new skill set or new job responsibilities, at least once you get past entry level.

      If it’s work you’re dreading or you just know you’re probably not ever going to be a good fit for, that’s a different thing.

      Also, is the stuff you dislike intrinsic to the work or is there a way you could shape it to give it the clarity/specificity you need to feel like you’re doing good work? Can you narrow your concept of your piece of it and get really clear about what success looks like to you when you’re far less in control?

    2. Wonderer*

      One thing I found helps, is to try to find some part of the hated work that isn’t so bad and then reframe it in your mind as being a key part of the task. For example: if you hate collecting data but don’t mind the massaging, try to think of the collection as just a first step that leads to the one you don’t mind doing.
      Also, can you find someone else that’s willing to do the parts of the work that you don’t like?

    3. ..Kat..*

      Would training help?

      Did you get a raise with this promotion? I would like my higher level work less if I was under paid.

  52. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    Started a rotation at work about 2 months ago. I was an admin for an exhaustingly large team, so I was incredibly excited to manage a small project and work on employee engagement. Well, part of the deal was that I would be a backup for the receptionists if they were out sick or on vacation, which I assumed would only be once in a while, so I was fine with. Turns out, one of the receptionists quit right after I started, and I was told I would need to cover until they hired a new person. I just got an update stating that they expected to hire someone mid-September. I’m so disappointed and demoralized, especially since the rotation is only supposed to be 6 months. I’m still getting paid at a much higher rate than I was making as an admin so I feel like a jerk for complaining, but I was interested in the professional development as much as I was the extra pay and I feel cheated out of it. I do have my 1:1 soon, so hopefully I can work this out and see if there are other options.

    1. DC*

      Just here to offer support! It’s definitely within reason to mention that this cut into this rotation that you were looking to for x, y, z growth reasons. Your boss should want to help with this, as theoretically the company wanted to invest in you by accepting you to the rotation, and they are losing out as well.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Thanks, I appreciate it! I will definitely bring this up, I’m just nervous about not sounding negative or whiny.

        1. DC*

          Practice first! Choose the words you know you want.

          And you’re not whining, or being negative: Circumstances beyond your control kept you from key parts of the rotation, and you want to make sure you get the full benefit of the program.

          Use Alison’s oft-quoted use of “we,” if it makes you feel better. You’re part of the team, wanting to make sure you got all the skills expected out of the rotation so the company can utilize those skills.

  53. we're basically gods*

    Anyone here done a web development boot camp and got a job? I feel like I’m gonna be job hunting for forever. It’s only been a couple of months, but still! Everyone wants at least 3 years of experience for *everything*. Entry level, my behind.
    I’m sure the answer is basically just “keep applying”, but it doesn’t make it suck less.

    1. we're basically gods*

      Posted this and then almost immediately got a call from a job I applied to– normally not a big fan of impromptu phone screens, but it seemed to go pretty well, and it seems like the hiring folks are about as desperate as I am, which is not normally a great sign, but all I need is someone to take a chance on me somewhere that I can tolerate working for a couple of years.

      1. Employed bootcamp grad*

        I’m a bootcamp grad who has a job. Congrats on the callback! Getting the first job is the hardest. Once you have a year of experience (or even just six months!), you’ll be a lot more enticing to employers and will have a lot of options. I know a lot of people who got started working at places they really didn’t like, but were able to find something much better very soon. A lot of job posting that request 3 years experience are just wishful thinking and will ultimately hire newbies.

    2. Blue Tinted Lenses*

      Web Development bootcamps are a gamble at best.

      Some will charge you ~$13K and expect you to dedicate 50-60 hour weeks, for three months. They may promise pathways into Companies You Heard Of, but the people I know who took this route, they were out of a job and out the money at the end of the program.

      If you have an interest, you are likely better off attending some classes at a local Junior College (if you are US-ian) or looking into things like Lynda.com, Coursera, Treehouse, freeCodeCamp, etc.

  54. princesswings*

    Does anyone have any experience with aptitude tests? I’m at a point in my career and life where I’m considering what options might be available to someone with my current education and experience that would be a better fit for my personality than what I’m doing now. I was looking at Johnson O’Connor in particular but wondered if that kind of thing is actually useful.

    1. LimeRoos*

      I took the Johnson O’Connor test in college (10 years ago) since I was a little lost & had no idea what career to pursue. It didn’t help me with the career part much, since I honestly was just doing it to appease my mom, but it did help boost my confidence and reminded me I am intelligent and could do whatever I set my mind to. I do remember they give you a lot of information afterwards, and you have a much better idea of things you’ll enjoy working on. I enjoyed the tests themselves too, they were fun and different and really did rely on your natural aptitudes towards different things/skills.

    2. OtterB*

      I worked for some years for an organization called Career Vision (but have been gone from there … wow, 15 years now). They use aptitude tests similar to Johnson O’Connor and also interest/personality measures to help triangulate on the kinds of jobs and work environments that will be the best fit. A lot of the clients (including my husband at a career-change juncture and my daughter when she was in high school) found it very helpful. Their in-person stuff is in the Chicago area but I believe they also do some remote packages with counseling via web.

    3. AmyRo*

      I’ve heard great things about a book called “Design your Life” by Stanford professors/researchers. Not an aptitude test, but a framework for figuring out next steps

    4. Not So NewReader*

      To me it was a rabbit hole. Mine came back that I would probably do okay at whatever. This is NOT helpful.
      I spent way too much time looking at this stuff. Way too much time.

      Think about things that you have repeatedly gravitated toward over the years. Think about times when you have said to yourself, “I GOT this one! I got it!”

      You probably have some idea where your natural gifts are- the stuff you can do with ease and you watch in puzzlement when others struggle.

      I mean try it if you want, but also look for other sources to help guide you.

  55. Never Mind the Gap*

    How should I best deal with an upcoming business lunch, and future situations, when I can’t eat without removing my temporary front tooth? My ongoing dental restoration project required the recent extraction of a very prominent upper front tooth. It will be at least a few months until I get my permanent replacement and until then, I have a purely cosmetic temporary. Between now and then, there will be occasions where I will have to decide between taking it out to eat and accepting whatever impression I then make (and it may sometimes be a first impression) or finding a way out of eating at all!

    Since the extraction, I have graduated from only eating at home to occasionally eating in public with my husband or a couple of longtime dear friends, and I am tremendously self-conscious. After ordering but before the food comes, I excuse myself to the restroom, return missing a tooth, then return to the restroom to put it back in as soon as possible after eating. Doing this with friends, family and strangers is one thing, but doing it at the annual business lunch with Boss and Grandboss is quite another, and I have been cringing for weeks.

    One one hand, I feel like I need to own this, including being grateful and acknowledging how fortunate I am to even have dental options ahead of me. Explain my situation in a matter-of-fact, we’re-all-adults-getting-older way (although I am the oldest), head to the restroom, and then hold my head high and don’t be afraid to smile. On the other hand, some things once seen, can never be unseen. I have toyed with having a “sudden emergency” arise just as lunchtime arrives, but I would miss out on a lot. Besides the obvious business considerations, I fear I would have a hard time facing myself knowing that I was such a coward and wimp that I let my vanity chase me away.

    Of course, so much of this is entangled in my feelings and fears about aging, vanity, privilege, money and so much more. The Friday open thread is not the place to go too far down that rabbit hole, but I will say that spending 10 days unable to wear even a temporary tooth was a character- and empathy-building experience. Readers, have any of you faced this situation, either while missing a tooth or being in a similar situation with someone who is? Please refrain from sharing your dental experiences and advice here. However, I am interested in what the AAM community has to say about that as well while I ponder my dental future and I may post about that aspect on the weekend open thread. Thank you.

    1. Bear Shark*

      Owning it is probably the best approach. I have a damaged front tooth (partial crown/cap makes it look normal unless you look closely) and I have had a couple of times the partial cap has broken off and I had to wait to get it replaced. Most people don’t pry if you just mention that you’re in the middle of some dental work and excuse yourself briefly to remove the temporary. Maybe with a comment when you return to the table that you’re glad you only have X more time to wait to make it clear it’s a temporary situation, if that would make you feel better in a business situation.

    2. ProbablyNotASandwich*

      Could you manage with any foods at all? I had a family member in a similar position and they were alright with soups and risotto type things – mostly because they don’t need to be bitten into.

      They were fairly verbally open about their dental thing, but didn’t want to publicly display the gap, and “dental issues, soft food only for me” worked for them, but I understand that may not be possible with a cosmetic thing (in which case, would “dental issues, beverages only” be an option?).

      This too, will pass.

      1. ProbablyNotASandwich*

        (not that owning it is a bad plan – it’s a really good plan if you’re able to do it, I picked up from your comment that you might find that quite tough to do, and I know my family member worried about it at home, before they went out to eat – but if you can be comfortable owning it then that’s ideal. )

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I had to have my entire top arch of teeth extracted due to physical trauma, and only after that was done did I discover two things: One, my hard palate is just weirdly shaped enough that a traditional denture won’t properly seal to it, and two, I’m allergic to all the common denture adhesives. And did I mention I had no dental insurance at the time. So I had no option but to go without for two and a half years until such time as I had a job that provided dental insurance and also paid me well enough to afford implants. (So now I have a $18,000 mouth of which dental insurance covered $800. Such a racket. :P )

      Sounds terrible, right? It was. However! People that I worked with for six months? Never noticed. Had no idea, until someone made a joke about where’s the big toothy grin after I graduated – I thought she was being uncharacteristically nasty, but she had legitimately never even registered the lack. (We were both mortified at each other for a few minutes.) My best friend’s wife. I was in their wedding, ducking around to try to keep from being too prominent in their wedding pictures. TWO YEARS, and she had no idea. When I got the implants I blogged about it, and as it turns out, a lot of people that I had seen in person on the regular, who had known me before and after, had just … never registered that for two years I had no top teeth. A dear friend who had encountered a similar situation (closer to yours than to mine, I think) pointed out — what’s huge and blindingly obvious to *you* isn’t necessarily even a blip on anyone else’s radar, because they’re worried about their own huge obvious issues that nobody else is noticing. :)

      In short, I would just do what you need to do without worrying about explanations. If someone asks – which I think would be weirdly rude, in a business situation? – a brief “I’m in the process of having some dental work done” should suffice.

      1. Ginger Baker*

        ^This. I have had temporary caps on my two top front teeth (so, front and CENTER) and if you discreetly fiddle with your mouth at the table to take them out and don’t say anything and eat like normal…most people will never ever notice. I just didn’t do any big grins and it was totally fine. (And, my mom, very similar to the above comment has no dentures currently at all – for different reasons – and seriously most people never ever realize that she doesn’t have ANY teeth really. Like. Literally no one notices.)

    4. pcake*

      I also have a missing front tooth with a flipper that I have to take out to eat many foods.

      I have discovered that some softer foods I can eat without a problem without taking out my tooth. Scrambled eggs, refried beans, oats, pudding, tofu, and pretty much anything that doesn’t require firm chewing. A baked potato, although not the skin. Ice cream, cake, some soups. It’s always best to run to the restroom, take out the appliance and rinse in case something got under that could cause irritation, but I’m happy to be able to eat in front of people without having to take out my tooth.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      ” On the other hand, some things once seen, can never be unseen. ”

      Okay, this here got me. Think. You are not going into the restaurant with your severed head under your arm. To me that would be unforgettable. You are going into a restaurant with a missing tooth. I will remember that for-oh- maybe three minutes at most.

      So let’s roll with this, let’s say you are totally correct, everyone at the table forever remembers you were missing a tooth a while ago. Now. This impacts you how?

      I get it. Losing teeth is a bfd to the person who is losing the teeth. BTDT. To everyone else, it’s Wednesday.

      Anyone who knows anything about dental stuff knows that if teeth are not taken care off, the problems that happen next can contribute to one’s early demise. This is nothing to trifle with, it has to be done.

      My suggestion to you is that the person most invested in how you appear is you. (Normal, we all do this.) So, go alone to a restaurant without your tooth, order something and eat your meal. Yes, I am suggesting a practice run.

      Another suggestion I have is to mention it to your boss in private. “When we attend this luncheon, I will have removed my tooth before I get there. I just want to cue you in that I am fine but I don’t wish to discuss it with anyone. Perhaps you would be able to head off any tooth related discussions?”

    6. ...*

      It depends how well you know them. If you’re making 1st and 2nd impressions I would not take it out. Also depends how formal and “elite” your company is. Honestly, I would probably leave it in no matter what. Can you drink with it in? Maybe a light soup? Say you “dealing with a frustrating dental situation” so you’re just going to stick to a beverage. Idk. I get the appearances “shouldn’t matter” or whatever, but for myself I think I’d be more comfortable leaving it in. :/ Sorry you’re going through a hard dental time. That sucks!

  56. Leela*

    I continue to go out of my mind dealing with an HR director who refuses to use e-mail. She’s not in the same building as my department so it’s even more important that she responds to her e-mails but not only will she refuse to do so, but she’ll act bewildered that you could *ever* be upset that she won’t. You’ll send her time-sensitive, important inquiries and she’ll act on them behind the scenes but say absolutely nothing to you, not even to say that she’s received your e-mail.

    Because she won’t respond, you can’t weigh in at all on her action plan, see what it even is, or tell her if it’s working. I’ve circled back with her to let her know that even if she might be working on something behind the scenes, the impact on me is exactly the same as if she just deleted my e-mail without opening it or if it got lost in her junk mail. Sometimes she’ll choose solutions that she thinks will work but I could tell her they won’t if I knew what she was doing, or if she was even doing anything. Then she gets upset that I’m pressing her to read e-mails because she’s “doing something on her end.”

    I’m in a management role but very new here, and there’s no one above her I know of to go to her. Everyone in my department is frustrated with her because we waste time sending her follow-up inquiries for a month just to have her essentially go “GOD i SAW it! I’m working on it!” but we couldn’t have possibly known that and we’re left holding the bag if something doesn’t get done.

    Any suggestions?

    1. valentine*

      This is seriously weird. She…doesn’t know how to hit Reply? Can’t type?

      Get your manager on it.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        Yes, this. She may not have anyone directly above her, but if you do, go up your chain of command. Best if you can quantify any delays or impacts to work, but even examples of her OTT frustration at your (and other people’s) very reasonable follow ups would be useful. This is not a person who is good at their job, and this should become known to people who can do something about it.

      2. Leela*

        We have, and he’s talked to her as well. The way our company is structured, she outranks him though and no one above him thinks this is an issue needing addressing because she “performs well in other areas”. Insanely frustrating.

    2. irene adler*

      Will she at least respond to a delivery or read receipt on emails you send ?

      If there’s no one to escalate this to, then I’d have a talk with her about the “GOD i SAW it! I’m working on it!” message she sends after the month of follow-up inquires have passed. I don’t care for her response. I would want to discuss that with her (at a time when she’s not stressed out).
      My message: As I cannot know what her progress is on my request (as there’s never any initial acknowledgement on her part), I have no choice but to send follow-up inquires. Clearly these follow-ups cause her to react emotionally (” “GOD i SAW it! I’m working on it!”). Not my intent to cause her upset. Can she suggest to you another avenue for you to follow where she won’t get upset AND you can know that she’s working on your request? Or is she open to suggestions on what she can do to curtail this by informing you in a timely fashion of her actions on your requests?

    3. Moray*

      That’s really unacceptable. If this is impacting enough people that it wouldn’t be tracked to you, I actually suggest Glassdoor. If anyone at an organization pays attention to Glassdoor, it should be HR, and maybe it would give them a shake.

    4. Shiny Swampert*

      Honestly, I would stop emailing her. Go and see her, put in meetings, phone her, anything else. Gives you a lot more control over the situation.

      Also, that would drive me utterly bananacrackers.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        Yes. Start phoning her, and going to her office, and setting up meetings. At this point you’re unfortunately just contributing to the problem by continuing to bash your head against the email wall, as much as that shouldn’t be the case.

      2. Leela*

        She’s in a different campus far from where we work, and she never answers her phone unfortunately!

        1. The New Wanderer*

          Of course she doesn’t. Ugh, sorry to hear the higher ups don’t think this is a thing. Best case, she’ll pull it on them some day and face some consequences. Do you have any leeway to respond to her bad attitude with “I have no visibility into your processes, therefore I will be following up as needed on this important request.”

        2. Gumby*

          Can you find out someone who sits near her who does answer the phone? “So sorry to bug you Bob, is Jane nearby? Could you put her on the phone?”

          Yes, it is stupid. Maybe she’ll start answering her own phone if the people who sit near her encourage her to do so. (It’s 100% totally unfair to make it their problem but also? It’s 100% unfair how she’s non-responsive so…?) To be clear, I’m suggesting people who don’t report to her and are equal or higher than her on the food chain. As long as that wouldn’t tank your job. Eh, it’s a pretty terrible idea really but as a one-time workaround?

        3. Not So NewReader*

          She does not answer her phone.
          She does not answer email.
          And she’s HR.
          omg.

          Can your boss speak to her boss?

          Do you have legit situations where you have to email the higher ups and her at the same time and they will see that she is not answering you? (Don’t make up a contrived issue, I sincerely mean legit situations.)

          do not do this/ Can you call tech and say there is a problem getting emails from this person?/fun to think about, do not do.

          At some point this will bite her, because there will be something in email that will implode because she did not answer the email. IF there is a suggestion box at work, I would write the suggestion that someone be hired to answer Mary’s email for her.

          You know this might be a good question to send to Alison.

        4. Quinalla*

          Can you just start CCing someone else on all emails to her? Ask your boss about this. Can you escalate email checkins so you can get the angry response faster so at least you can get work done?

          I thought maybe she was just one of those nearly extinct email holdouts, but if she doesn’t answer her phone either, what are you supposed to do? It sounds like she just doesn’t like to communicate period. I know she is on a different campus, how far away is it? Could you do a weekly/monthly in-person meeting? Geez!

          I’d have your boss raise it again with their boss saying that she isn’t responsive to phone or email, so what is the communication method should employees use?

    5. maybe an obvious question but*

      have you tried calling her on the phone and then sending the email as a follow up so it doesn’t matter if she answers your email? Or is she not usually reachable by phone?

  57. TwoWeeksToday*

    I need to put in my 2 weeks notice today, but I just realized that my boss is on PTO today through next week. I’m remote and she lives on the west coast. I have no idea if she’s traveling.

    My plan is to give her a call anyway, after noon her time. If she answers, great! If not, I’ll leave a voicemail and follow up with an email.

    Does that sound like a reasonable way to go about this? Or would it be rude to call her with bad news while she’s on PTO?

    1. Lemon Zinger*

      I would never call my boss while she was out of the office. Your supervisor could be at a medical appointment or a funeral. I think an email is fine.

    2. Alianora*

      I would give notice to your boss’s boss (if there is one) in person, then send an email to both your boss and her boss.

      2. TwoWeeksToday*

        That is the CEO, and he’s always traveling/busy and I rarely personally speak with him. And since I’m remote, the closest I can get to “in person” is a phone call.

        1. TwoWeeksToday*

          Following up…I opted to text her and find out if she had time for a call today. That worked fantastically.

    3. Massive Dynamic*

      Give notice to the next higher up boss and ask her if she’d like you to reach out to your regular boss as well (she may let your boss wait to know or she may end up reaching out to your boss herself, but ultimately let it be her call).

  58. Overeducated*

    I’m at my training in the Grand Canyon! My expectations were “I’ll sit through whatever to get a chance to go on the trip.” I’m meeting some good people from other parts of my organization and getting a chance to explore multiple national parks this weekend, so I’m feeling lucky to be here. Also very excited that next week I get to learn about and tour some major infrastructure stuff for training, which is very much not my job but very much an interest.

    I was worried about being the only one who wasn’t able to do intense hikes in the desert in our off time, but it turns out there are plenty of others who aren’t in that physical condition or simply not interested, and there is enough tourist infrastructure that you can get around very comfortably here.

    1. Overeducated*

      PS I realized mentioning my expectations sounded insulting to the training itself, but that’s not fair, there are useful bits and the trainers are clearly very up on adult learning theory and engagement! It’s just very non-technical and not immediately applicable to my work, so again, I’m lucky to be able to take the time.

    2. Elizabeth West*

      Cool! I’ve never been there; would love to see it sometime.

      As for training, unless something is wildly out of my wheelhouse, I look at it as can’t-hurt-might-be-good-to-know. And you’re getting a cool trip out of it to boot!

    3. Jennifer Weiner*

      We recently moved to AZ, about 10o miles south of the Grand Canyon. If you’re looking for something else to do, we just rode to the top of the ski lift at Snowbowl, the ski resort north of Flagstaff. It’s about 30 minutes each way and beautiful views. I have health issues that limit me in many ways, but this was totally doable for me.

  59. LetMeAlone*

    I just need to vent because hopefully this employee will be gone next week.

    I have a member of our custodial staff who has been harassing me, but not in a way I really feel meets any legal criteria or anything other than “this feels off to me.” For some background, our custodial staff rotates what floor they’re in charge of pretty regularly. He’s the only one that right off the bat, starting coming into my office every day, multiple times a day, to ask if there was anything going on on in any of the conference rooms. No one else has done that, because they’re just supposed to get cleaned daily no matter what is going on it there. To me it just seemed like an excuse to come into my office and try to talk because I told him multiple times that there were schedules on the doors to the conference rooms and he should check those (he gave me the creeps right out of gate – I’m not normally that rude to people).

    Then he started making weird comments about my habits that made me think he was just watching me too close. I normally eat my lunch at my desk about mid-morning while I’m editing and then take my lunch later in the day to get out of the office. Well he saw me leaving for lunch late in the week and asked if I was leaving for the day. I told him just going to lunch. He insisted I had already taken lunch and then referenced that he saw me heating up food earlier in the lunch room ON MONDAY and thought that was just when I took my lunch.

    Then yesterday, he found me on my lunch break and started trying to talk to me again. I went into another part of the building to read and he “just happened to run into me.” It just bothered me. Then this morning, he got mad because he was trying to talk to me and I didn’t hear him because I had headphones in. He actually went stomping down the hall. Then later, he tried to stop me to ask if I lived around the area because he thought he saw me walking to work.

    Everything has just caused the hair to go up on the back of my neck. I have huge alarm bells about this guy. I reported all this to my supervisor and she’s at a loss because our HR is f-in terrible and I’m sure they’ll say that technically he’s not doing anything wrong.

    AHHH. I’m just hoping he rotates out next week. Otherwise I’m going to go talk to his supervisor. I’ve basically flat out told his guy to leave me alone and he isn’t and he keeps asking more personal questions.

    1. EBennet*

      Do not minimize this – he is stalking you. Can he be rotated off your floor early? Do you have a co-worker or security officer who can walk you out of the building?
      Document everything and keep pushing for support from HR.
      We had a support staff member who did something similar to one of our young teachers. When she finally told our very supportive supervisor about the problem the supervisor took it up the chain of command and at the end of the academic year the guy was not re-hired. In the interim, we all circled round to make sure that he did not have an opportunity to harass her (he was told to stay away from her). I wish you a similar outcome.
      Stay safe. It sucks that you have to deal with this.

      1. LetMeAlone*

        Today should be his last day on the floor, but if it isn’t, I’m going to talk to his supervisor on Monday. Thanks for the kind words! I actually get on the bus right across the street from our building and I’m ex-law enforcement so I always, always make sure to check my surroundings and I’ve been varying up my routine for both lunch and going home so some days I take the bus (from various stops) and other days I either drive or walk (if I reeeeallly want to).

        1. Neosmom*

          You should not let this go if this custodian is off your floor rotation after today. This person needs to go on notice with his supervisor ASAP so if it continues (either on your floor or another) the supervisor can build an accurate list of complaints.

        2. Working Hypothesis*

          You should not let this go even if he’s rotated off your floor on Monday, because he may well be doing the same thing or worse to other people, on other floors, as well. If you keep your mouth shut, they don’t have the backup they may need to get this handled.

          Bring it up to his supervisor Monday. No matter where he is then.

    2. Camellia*

      “I’ve basically flat out told his guy to leave me alone…” I’m going to channel Alison and ask, have you really? Have you specifically told him “Do not talk to me”, “Do not ask me personal questions”, or something along those lines?

      Whether you have or not, though, I do have advice that has worked very well for me:

      1. Ignore whatever they’ve said – no trying to answer the question, if he asked one, or give any kind of semi-sensible response AT ALL.

      2. Look him squarely in the eye and VERY FIRMLY say, “NO!”. It does not matter if this makes any sense in relation to what they have said or asked.

      3. If they do anything other than walk away, again look them squarely in the eye and VERY FIRMLY say, “NO!”.

      I have never had to do this more than twice. However, this part is very important: you must practice this OUT LOUD. You need to get used to hearing yourself say this. Do it constantly while you are doing something, be it taking a shower or folding laundry or (better still) working out. Because you are doing something when he approaches you, so trust me, this practice will help you respond more quickly without getting flustered. And you just need to get used to how you sound, and feel, while you are doing this. It may feel awkward when you first start practicing, so that’s why you practice. And practice until you feel STRONG when you say it. All that will communicate itself to him.

      1. Camellia*

        Anecdote: The last time I had to do this the guy had pestered me a couple of times so the next time he approached me I DIDN’T EVEN GIVE HIM A CHANCE TO SPEAK but fixed him with my stare and said “NO!”. The guy shot back with, “You don’t even know me!” and I didn’t hesitate but said “NO!” again, and he quickly left and didn’t bother me again.

        1. valentine*

          This could backfire on LetMeAlone, especially if the stalker’s white, both reputation-wise and because he might escalate.

          Stop telling him what you’re doing. Don’t give him any data. His rotating off doesn’t end your problem. See if your supervisor is willing to go to their supervisor. There is no good reason someone can’t tell him to stay away from you. Report him to his supervisor today. But it would help if your supervisor would back you up in demanding he no longer serve your floor.

          See the open threads about the vanshare harasser. The OP’s supervisor did a great job of shutting him down.

      2. LetMeAlone*

        Yes I have actually! I’ve told him not to come into my office, not to ask me personal questions, and most of the time I just ignore him when he comes to talk to me. I’m really not a shy person and I have absolutely no problem telling people to piss right off. This guy is just not getting it. I’m friendly with one of the other members of his team and if this creep-o is still here Monday, I’m going to go talk to them to find out this guy’s name and who their supervisor is so I can go have a chat with them.

        1. Dino*

          Oh, he gets it alright. He’s just choosing to ignore your very clear communication to continue to harass you. If he was acting in good faith, he would have backed off by now.

        2. Another JD*

          I’d take this pretty seriously. Even if he’s working on another floor, that’s still too close for comfort when he’s violated your clear boundaries.

          1. LetMeAlone*

            Yeah I might tell his supervisor that he needs to be in a total different building. Then if I see him after that, I’ll be contacting the police.

    3. Dino*

      Honestly all of that sounds creepy enough with enough entitlement/overly invested warning bells to warrant talking to his supervisor now and ask that it be made clear that he is to not interact with you under any circumstance. If he “needs to know” about a conference room or whatever, he can ask literally anyone else.

    4. Llama Face!*

      I don’t want to be a scare-monger but he sounds like a potentially unsafe person to me.
      I would be side-eyeing that guy so hard, specially after the suggestion that he knows or is trying to figure out where you live! If you can, switch up your travel routine temporarily and/or make sure you leave with someone.
      In particular I’d call it a warning sign that he’s getting visibly angry when you don’t give him the attention he expects from you.
      If you can talk to this guy’s manager it may be wise to do that sooner rather than later. Even if he soon rotates out of your office- and doesn’t keep creeping on you- some other poor woman may become his next unwilling focus.

      1. Llama Face!*

        And I see you replied and you are adjustinv your routine so ignore that part.

        I’d also make people in your personal life aware that you are having issues with a guy exhibiting stalking behaviour (including a general description) just in case.

      2. LetMeAlone*

        I’m going to talk to his manager on Monday if he’s still here. Yes I have switched up my travel routine. I get on the bus with another employee from my building, and I walk out to my car with a group of students so I think that’s all covered. And I let my supervisor know every time he does something creepy. This guy set off massive warning bells the second I met him.

        1. Not All*

          If you’re up for it, I’d let his supervisor know either way. I absolutely guarantee you are not the first or last person he has done this to and the next person might be a lot more vulnerable than you.

            1. LetMeAlone*

              If I see him outside of work, I will absolutely be calling the police. Like even a hint of it.

        2. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

          Honestly, I would not wait until Monday (unless you need the time to work out what to say, that is), I would go to his manager asap. This is not acceptable and they need to deal with it yesterday!

    5. Wandering*

      I’m sorry you are having to deal with this. A few things I’d do this weekend to plan your approach, because it sounds like this is unlikely to stop even if this guy is no longer officially on your floor next week:

      a) contact your local domestic violence folks and ask for a conversation about what local authorities need/want to act from someone to take action on your behalf (assuming your LE experience is not in this area), so that you can plan your approach as well as what you should be doing in general (or specifically) while dealing with this;

      b) contact your local law enforcement folks for similar info: what are the parameters they use/are instructed to use for any intervention/enforcement; my experience with friends in law enforcement is that they take the “makes the hair on my neck stand up” pretty seriously, especially from former LEOs;

      c) put together whatever tracking you have and what you’ve reported to your supervisor, and think about how to use it to support keeping this guy away from you using the advice you get from the informed folks outside your office;

      d) his supervisor needs to know this is happening; would your supervisor meet with his supervisor and you (or just the two supervisors, or the supervisors and HR) to detail your concerns?

      e) have a plan for if he’s back on your floor, if he’s near your bus stop/in your neighborhood, and for if you see him around if all this costs him his job (reminder: if this costs him his job it’s his doing, not yours)

      Your HR may not have much of a reputation, but someone with a law enforcement background with documentation and legalize should make them sit up and take notice. Unfortunately it sounds like you do want a documentation trail with this guy on file in all the useful places even if he’s never back in your building. On the one hand it might seem like overkill (we’re socialized to minimize this stuff internally and socially), on another you have training and experience that could be used to help not just yourself but also a less experienced woman who could be dealing with him in the future.

      (Posts like yours remind me of what a wonderful resource Marie has been on this board in providing info, guidance, and understanding for individuals coping with and learning about this kind of thing. Wherever she is, hope she’s well and happy and knows what a difference she makes.)

      Good luck and please let us know how things are going.

  60. Quill*

    So. All my spreadsheet related stress has abruptly been forwarded to my boss (I hate metrics and whoever set up our metrics spreadsheet should be forced to pick melted labels out of the printer with a tweezers) so I thought I could catch up on paperwork.

    I was wrong, the program I use for it has decided to give up recognizing my password. :)

  61. HopefulLegallyBrunettte*

    How “dead in the water” am I after getting the sniffles in an interview?

    For context, this was an interview at a law firm for a summer associate position for next year. There’s usually minimal to no leeway to reschedule or delay these interviews (this particular firm only scheduled interviews on two dates).

    I caught a cold about two weeks back but have recovered 90% of the way, I just have a bit of residual stuffiness.
    I blew my nose right before going into the office building for the interview.

    About an hour into a two-hour series of interviews with no breaks, I feel my nose stuffing up and feeling runny. The interviewer was explaining something, and I was sort of panicking and trying sniffle a bit without making any noise. The interviewer, unfortunately, noticed and asked if I needed a tissue. (If it matters, I don’t think there were any actual boogers at visually at play here, just moisture). There was a set up in the conference room with drinks, napkins and hand sanitizer so I gently dabbed my nose with a napkin – and briefly apologized that I was mostly recovered from a cold – and sanitized my hands and was fine for the remainder of the interview.

    Overall, I feel like the interviews went well, I’m just terrified my sniffles translated into an immediate NO.

    1. fposte*

      It’s highly unlikely that anybody will care in the slightest. Noses run sometimes. It’s not a big deal.

    2. Purt's Peas*

      I can’t imagine why they would translate into an immediate no! Everyone gets sick, and applicants aren’t expected to be robots with no human foibles.

      1. valentine*

        And you responded really well. It’s not like they can go, “Dear Alison: Our best candidate shot out snot like a hockey player (we are not located on ice), wiped a long lime string of it on their black sleeve, and laughed so hard about it, they got cramps and needed a recess.”

    3. Fikly*

      In my final interview for my current job, I had the flu! I emailed the company, apologized profusely, and they offered to reschedule, but I did not want to lose my chance, so we switched it to a video interview. I apologized again at the start of the interview for being low energy due to the flu, and they totally understood, or at least, I got the job!

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      I had such a bad coughing fit I nearly puked in an interview. Got the job and have been here 7 years.

    5. LGC*

      You dared to be a normal human that gets sick sometimes? The nerve! You should never be hired for anything ever again!

      /s

      But seriously, it sounds like you handled it well and you’re fine. If they reject you for being sick, that’s more of a reflection on them than you, and that’s a dodged bullet. (Because if having the sniffles gets you knocked out of contention, I can’t imagine they would have a reasonable approach to illness in general.)

    6. Coverage Associate*

      I had an interview where I had a coughing fit and still got the callback and then the offer. Put the sniffles out of your mind.

    7. ...*

      LOL no that’s completely fine and normal. I would have never worked in my life if that were the case.

  62. Erika22*

    A quick update/thank you to the UK folks for their advice on notice periods! I asked my manager about it, saying that with a few recent departures I and conversations with coworkers, I realized everyone with my job title and at my level has a one month notice period, and I didn’t know why mine was three months. He was surprised and at first suggested it was a typo but said he’d check and see if there was any justification for it. Turns out around the time I was hired there was an attempt to align with a different department on contracts, but that never really happened, and it didn’t seem fair for me to have such a long notice period when no one else does. He’s having HR reissue my contract with my one month notice period, and I’m super relieved!

  63. WTF*

    I just had my performance review. Once again, my manager told me that I was doing a generally good job, but I wouldn’t get promoted until I produced reports that required “absolutely no edits”. To be clear, we are given 3 days to write a report. We crank out 3-4 in the span of two weeks. The only edits my manager has been making are small tweaks here and there, and changing out my SmartArt when she doesn’t like them. I asked my who work in consulting, and they told me it was not normal to not promote someone for making small changes to a draft that was produced in 3 days. My managers are stupid, and I can’t wait until I get hired elsewhere. I was also not offered a raise this cycle.

    1. Jadelyn*

      Wow, that’s crappy. Especially if some of the edits are just differences in style – preferring one SmartArt to another – your manager is grasping at straws to justify refusing to promote you. Good luck with your job search!

        1. WTF*

          We are currently manager-less. We have an interim, but she is just as bad and won’t help. The only authority I can appeal to – though I don’t think it will help any – is HR.

  64. ES*

    I just accepted a new job as a director of a child care center, and I couldn’t be more excited! I’ve been a lead teacher for the last six years so this will be a major jump in title and responsibility. I’ll have six weeks of training before taking over my center, but does anyone have any tips on how to make the transition from teaching to a desk job/management position? I’m in my late 20’s and will be managing people older than me, so I’d love some tips on how to get off on the right foot as well!

    1. Lurker2209*

      Lead Teacher in childcare myself and I probably don’t have a lot to suggest that you wouldn’t know from your own experience, but I do think the work culture of various child care centers varies a lot. My center is a non-profit operated by a house of worship. The work culture is really relaxed, very flat hierarchy, leads have lots of autonomy in their classrooms and how classroom budgets are spent, etc. A family friend works for a corporately owned Montessori school and it’s very different, more support is some ways (like admin stuff) but much less autonomy. My impression of head start is that it’s a very different culture as well. Hopefully you know from the interview process that you’re a good cultural fit, but the 6 weeks of training ought to give you a really good opportunity to observe it closely to slew how you might need to fit in and what you might need to push back on.

      One other thing: a huge part of what I rely on my director for is managing the parents and policies and the politics of all of that. My boss has relationships with parents and has my back when we need to hold firm on something (Nope, you can’t drop your kid off after a doctors appointment in the middle of naptime; it’s too disruptive. You can bring them earlier so they can have a chance at transitioning to nap, or later when the other kids are waking up.)

      It takes time to build those relationships and the level of trust, but you can start working on it right away. Just being really available and friendly.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      I was in my early 30s and supervising people 50+ years old. Their comments to me:

      “You don’t wait until I make a mistake, THEN tell me the right way to do it.”
      “You make sure I know what tasks I have for today and you make me aware of any limits on the task BEFORE I start.”
      “You ask me my opinion and you take my answer seriously, even if you do not use any or all of the answer.”
      “You make sure I know what is expected by the company so I can keep my job.”

      I held on to the fact that they absolutely needed me to be a boss to them. That meant setting aside my own concerns about them being older than me. If the company changed a policy or started a new policy I let them know as a group. If someone misstepped, I spoke to them privately.

      It’s a little thing, but I never called across the room to them. In our work setting, we could holler to each other. I made sure I walked over to them and used a conversational level of speaking. But I told them it was okay to yell out my name if there was something urgent.

      A good conversation to open is to ask them what concerns they have. And keep that as an on-going conversation.
      Stress safety and tell them you want to be made aware of anything that is unsafe. People who know their safety is a priority work better as a group and on the individual level.

  65. Phryne Fisher*

    I suspect my coworker’s husband is abusive and an alcoholic. I’m worried that she thinks his behavior is normal. What can (should) I do?

    What she’s told me….
    – When she got home from a weekend away, the family went to get dinner. At dinner, he was slurring his words and she realized he was drunk. She was worried he was drunk all weekend alone with the kids.
    – She has found empty liquor bottles in the bushes around their home.
    – He’s gotten a DUI in which his license was taken away. What worries me most is that when she told me, she was justifying his DUI as not his fault. She said, “He only had a few drinks before he drove home. He was fine. Then another car hit him. For some reason, the police showed up and arrested him.”
    – He has slapped her in the face.
    – Their daughters are young teens and he has called them sluts.

    Whenever she tells me about her husband’s behavior, I assure her that it is not okay and she/kids should not be treated that way. Is there anything else I could (should) do?

    1. Lena Clare*

      No. You can encourage her to go to Al-Anon, or leave some leaflets about it on her desk or put a poster up for a helpline in the toilet, and if you feel like her kids are in danger you can inform social services, but having her vent these problems to you without actually doing anything about them is not on. She needs to look after herself and her kids – encourage her to do that. And take protections for yourself first and foremost too.

      1. valentine*

        It’s possibly a good sign that coworker is checking to see whether the behavior’s reasonable.

        You can ask if she wants resources like 800-799-7233 (SAFE), it’d be fine to say, “You know I think he’s done some reckless things and Al-Anon might be good for you and the kids. That’s not going to change and I can’t be your sounding board anymore.”

    2. JennyFair*

      If your employer has an employee resource program that might help, I’d ensure she has that information. But mostly, she’s going to have to be ready, and she does not sound ready.

    3. deesse877*

      No. You’re doing the right thing by holding the line and refusing to entertain rationalizations. You can also cut off long disturbing stories if it’s clear she’s not hearing you. If you think a crime is in process (like you personally see him preparing to drive impaired, or you have reason to believe the children’s safety is imminently threatened) you can object, and at the limit call law enforcement, but otherwise your only role is to affirm that this isn’t normal and refuse to play the denial game. Addiction problems often go this way, unfortunately.

  66. Camellia*

    What is the worst case of job bait-and-switch that you’ve heard of or experienced yourself?

    My daughter was an assistant director at a company that lost its contract in her city, so she found herself suddenly without a job. After a short job search she was offered a position as operations manager at NextJob; salary and benefits were okay so she accepted. When she arrived for her first day they told her, oh, it was really operations ADMIN at $22,000 less salary! She accepted anyway because, as she said, it was $100 more a week than unemployment. Of course she kept up her job search and was able to move on about three months later.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      I went in for an interview for a receptionist position at an investment firm. They called a couple days later to say that position had been filled but asked if I could come in to talk about another position. Okay fine. Their “other position” was a web host for an 18+ chat site. I deserve an Oscar for keeping my poker face for that discussion.

        1. Bunny Girl*

          I have no idea. It was really, really weird. But it makes for an interesting bait and switch story!

    2. Bend & Snap*

      I was hired for a marketing coordinator job (my second job) and it turned out I was a receptionist. Nobody mentioned it till I showed up the first day and they trained me on the phones.

      I didn’t have the balls to say wtf, or quit, or anything. So I was a receptionist when I thought I was going to get marketing experience. The “marketing experience” was placing ads in local papers.

    3. Ursula*

      My worst two were: hired for a job that had 6-8 duties listed, pretty typical admin job. The actual job was to move job applications to sharepoint and combine them if they are duplicates, all day every day. The job only existed because their tech team was “too busy” to align the submittal form to the actual form in sharepoint, something I now know would take, like, 2 hours. I was only able to last even 3 months because it was 2009.

      I was also once hired to help with managerial projects during a re-org. They only ever assigned me actual work once in the 4 months I was there.

    4. Just Another Manic Millie*

      I have two stories.

      This first is when I was hired to be a secretary and back-up receptionist for an investment company. On my first day, I was told that the receptionist had quit, so until they hired one, I would have to be the receptionist. But they never hired one. I doubt if they even looked for one. It was terrible, because it was always a struggle to go to the ladies room or out to lunch, because it wasn’t anyone’s job to cover for me, because I was both the receptionist and the back-up receptionist.

      The second is when I was hired to be an admin asst at a company that provided a vital service to other companies. On my first day, I was told that the receptionist was on vacation, and I would have to fill in for her until she returned. A few days later, I was told that I was doing such a great job that I would be the permanent receptionist, and that when the receptionist returned from her vacation, she would be given another job. Due to the horrible working conditions, I did not want to be the receptionist. A few days later, I found out that there wasn’t any receptionist on vacation. I gave two weeks notice after I was there for three weeks.

    5. Mimmy*

      One time, I was hired at a wholesale factory – the impression I’d gotten was that I’d be doing data entry and some phone work. Come in on Day One and I’m the receptionist! The first day or so wasn’t too bad but I quickly realized that this would be a very toxic job. The main person I worked with was very moody but also very mothering; I’d get calls from drivers, store managers and even customers, some of whom were quite nasty (one guy was borderline psychotic) and the director had an intense personality. Also, I was overwhelmed by the hordes of people that would come in responding to the Help Wanted sign.

      I should’ve gotten the hint when I came back on my second day and someone said “Oh, you came back!” I lasted only two and a half weeks before I decided to not come in one day and we parted ways. I found out later that several people came and went after me. I still sometimes want to cry when I think about this experience – and this was almost 20 years ago. It was that traumatic. I’d come home nearly every day crying.

    6. Chaordic One*

      I’ve written about this before, but I once went on an interview for a Marketing Assistant job that turned out to be a cattle call interview for a sales job selling knock-off perfume in shopping center parking lots.

        1. Chaordic One*

          No, not under a tent, but like in front of the store in the parking lot. Until the store security guard comes along and asks you to leave. (O.K. that’s a bit of conjecture on my part. I never took the job, but shortly afterwards I did see some people selling perfume in the parking lot in front of a drug store. It used to be something else like a Rite-Aid, but now it’s a CVS. Anyway, I’m pretty sure it was the same outfit. Or maybe a competitor?)

  67. Amber Rose*

    Oh, forgive me for the double post, but I would like to share a brief excerpt of the best email I have ever received at work (typos left in).

    “I’m ahacker who exploitedyour email boxand all devicestwo months ago.
    Never make an attempt to contact me or alternatively look for me, it is definitely not possible, since I directed you this message using YOUR account that I’ve hacked.
    I have started malware soft to the adult videos (porno) website and suppose you watched this website to have fun (you know what I really mean).
    During you were taking a look at vids, your browser started out to act as a RDP (Remote Control) having a keylogger that gave me access to your desktop and webcam.
    Afterward, my softaquiredall info.
    …
    I have managed to create dual-screen movie. The first section reveals the video you had been watching (you’ve a good preferences, wow…), the 2nd part demonstrates the movie from your webcam.”

    I have good preferences for the adult materials I watch while doing inappropriate things at work you guys, it’s been confirmed!

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Oh my lawd, the typos. And the “you know what I really mean”. And the “good preferences”!! Dude.

      It just gets more hilarious the more you read it!!

      1. Amber Rose*

        Right? I’m printing it and keeping it forever. He wants $1000 in bitcoin to not spread this video of me around to everyone I know. But like, hey, I have good taste, there’s no shame in that. :D

        1. TwoWeeksToday*

          They use typos and bad grammar on purpose to weed out people who can’t be duped. It helps them reach their target demo.

            1. valentine*

              I have good preferences for the adult materials I watch while doing inappropriate things at work
              Something for the résumé! Don’t forget to bold it. “Other skills”? I know one reference who won’t be available upon request, but, still.

        2. Environmental Compliance*

          Only $1000? Is it because you had good taste? Does the price go up if you have bad taste?

          1. Amber Rose*

            Actually, the answer seems to be no. My coworker got a similar one only apparently she was looking at… children. And the price was the same. :/

            We seem to be an office of perverts and degenerates.

            1. Environmental Compliance*

              It’s good to know though that apparently the extortion price of Don’t Tell The World I Watch Porn is valued at $1000.

          2. Ms. Anne Thrope*

            I got one once with an email subject ‘hello my victim’ and it went on to say how it had filmed me ‘wanking’…during a week when I was on vacation out of the country and my work computer was shut off (in addition to the fact that that’s not a thing I do, certainly on a work computer)! Haha, nope!

    2. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

      I got this one – twice! – last week! I read it to my daughter and we both laughed and laughed and laughed!
      It WAS in my spam folder, which I was checking before deleting.

    4. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’ve had these before! In some ways I admire the creativity of whoever came up with this and the spelling. Years ago I used to get spam that had some very funny automated random words in the “from” field. I can’t remember them anymore but it was things like “Popsicle Hypothecate” or “Anarchic Pyjamas”. I kind of miss them, they would have been good for generating throwaway Reddit names.

  68. What a week.*

    I went into a meeting on Tuesday getting ready to pitch a new role for myself and ended up finding out I was getting laid off. Today is my last day. I’ve never been laid off before, never left a role without another one laid off. I have savings and severance and soon I’ll havr unemployment, but I still have a lot of generalized fear and anxiety. Does anyone have any advice or resources that were helpful for them? I know most people get laid off at one point or another so there must be some resources out there. Thanks, all.

    1. Colette*

      I’ve been laid off 3 times. You’re going to be OK.

      My advice:
      – Look at your expenses. Figure out how long you can be without a job, and what expenses you can cut.
      – Apply for unemployment.
      – Let people who know you know that you’re looking. Don’t feel like you have to hide it; many people have been laid off.
      – Make a list of what you want in your next job, and what you don’t want. Where do you want to go?
      – What are your strongest skills? What can you do that others can’t?
      – Line up references.
      – How do people find jobs in your city/industry? (My city has a paid service that will send you all the new job postings every business day, which is really helpful.)
      – Update/revamp your resume.
      – Come up with a schedule for yourself. (Mine typically looks like a daily workout, looking through the new job postings and applying if appropriate, networking meetings/contacts, then doing a hobby/relaxing). Commit to doing something every day.
      – And book “free days” as well – you can’t job search every day, and taking weekends off is healthy.
      – Figure out what free things you can do in your location that you wouldn’t otherwise do.
      – Think about volunteering, if that’s appropriate for you.

    2. Dancing Otter*

      Think about everything that was wrong with your old job.
      This has two goals: (1) know what to avoid in your job search; and (2) be grateful that at least you don’t have to put up with that sh*t any more.
      I once was fired by a manager who had been trying to force me out for over three years. (He had achieved 90% turnover in a 10-person department in that period.) My blood pressure went down 30 points. I also got a 50% bump in salary at my next job.
      Amusingly, one of our points of contention (accounting treatment of X) was cited by the regulators about a year later while forcing the company to replace the president, chief investment officer, chief information officer, controller, head of internal audit, and assistant controller. The assistant controller and controller both had to move over 1000 miles to find new jobs. (Isn’t LinkedIn wonderful?) The controller’s next two companies also ran into regulatory and/or solvency problems before I lost interest in following his misfortunes. Coincidence?
      I was SOOOO much better off out of that place. I hope that you will soon realize that you are, too.

  69. Alexander Graham Yell*

    Long time listener, first time caller (on the Friday open thread, at least). Thanks to some recent posts here, we’ve delegated somebody to talk to our mediocre intern about how to turn around his performance and relationships with people in the office. He’s developed some bad habits and frustrated most of us to the point where we don’t want to work with him at all, but that’s not a good situation for anybody, especially somebody who is here to learn. So we found the person who has the best relationship with him and they’re going for coffee today.

    I really hope this works, because I want to be able to rely on this guy and also not roll my eyes internally every time he talks. I’m sure he knows something is up because we have another intern who gets more interesting work (or any work) given to him, so hopefully this gives him a chance to improve and we can all work together well.

  70. Agent J*

    For those who do client work (e.g., consulting, agencies, etc.), where do you draw the line between offering your client recommendations based on your expertise and just doing what they asked you to do?

    This week, I had a few moments where I was tired of “selling” my recommendations to my clients. They hired me for my expertise but frequently want me to just do what they want (even if it’s not worth it the time/money). At a certain point, I just throw my hands up and give it to them.

    1. That'll Buff Right Out*

      So this answer assumes you are some sort of free agent or freelancer, meaning that you alone are responsible for getting and keeping the client and that you also do the actual service that they are paying for. If either of those things is untrue (for example, if you have no control over pricing) then you’ll have to modify my response to your own circumstances.

      I am reading between the lines here, but it sounds like the way your business normally works is that someone asks you to produce X. At some point during negotiations or during the production of X service, you realize based on your expertise that process Y would be much better for them. You then attempt to sell them on Y as a better choice.

      Does it go something like that? It’s hard to say without knowing the details of your industry, who you’re selling to, the complexity of the service, how they came to you, the sales cycle, etc. etc. But on its face, that sounds like a steep climb. If the client has already made up their minds about wanting X, they’re very likely to want to stick with that. You may be arriving at the end of a very long decision making process that they’re not interested in revisiting.

      The phrase that sticks out to me is “just doing what they asked you to do”. As a service-based business owner myself, I *always* do what the client asked me to do. Obviously in the most effective, professionally informed way. But it’s ultimately the client’s request. If they want something that’s outside of the scope of what we offer, then that’s a “Sorry, we don’t offer that. But other companies do and I’m sure one of them can help you.”

      The other phrase that sticks out to me is “even if it’s not worth it the time/money”. I’m not sure how to read that. If you mean the money you earn isn’t worth your time, then you should stop accepting those jobs immediately. Or charge more. If you mean that the time you spend on the job isn’t worth the money THEY’RE spending, then either you’ve just happened to get lucky or you might be more valuable in the market than you realize.

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Just general things that I have set for myself:
      I refuse to help anyone do anything that is illegal or unethical.
      If what they want will cause them more harm than good, I will refuse but I will explain why.
      If what they want is neutral- it’s neither helpful or detrimental- then I will ask why they want that particular thing, what goal are they aiming for? Usually this question changes the direction of the whole conversation.
      If what they want is good for them but I am the expensive way to get it done, I will just say that I am happy to x for them but there are cheaper ways of handling things. I do remind them a second time if the same scenario comes up again. But after that I just do it and accept the money.
      If they ask me to do a project and micromanage me to the point I am doing everything the slow, stupid way, then eventually that relationship will come to an end. Sometimes faster than other times depending on the particulars.
      It’s easier to decide when to quit when the people are rude. It’s the nice people that will getcha.

  71. Potential Intern*

    This upcoming Monday, I have an interview for a federal IT internship. I’m super excited about this, and want to do the best I can. That said, I’ve done several job interviews, but never one for an internship before; what kind of questions should I be anticipating? What’s the best way to prepare? How different is it from a regular job interview?

    Note: I do have relevant work experience, but I’m going back to school after getting my AAS and working for a few years, so that may change the questions asked…?

    1. revueller*

      If you have prior work experience, highlight that more than your experiences in school. For an IT (as in information technology, yes??) internship, I believe they might ask you about your experience with certain systems and technologies. If they don’t, that’s a great follow-up question for you to ask at the end of an interview.

      Other than that, I’ve never found internship interviews to be much different from regular job interviews. They want to make sure that you understand the nature of the work and that you can do it. If you haven’t already, look for Glassdoor review for the agency you’re working with and see if people talk about the interview questions they were asked.

      Good luck!

  72. Jadelyn*

    I’m hoping the commentariat here can help with some phrasing/approach advice. The short version is, I witnessed an incident of bullying between two of my team members, and would like to speak up on behalf of the victim, but the leadership investigating haven’t asked for witnesses or anything. How do I proactively go to them and say “Hey, I know you’re already looking at this, but there’s a crapton of ugly context you’re missing because you work at HQ and we’re at the other office.”

    The long version is, we have…a situation in our team, tension between a few members, that came to a head last week (raised voices, formal grievances filed). There is one bully, Cersei, and the two coworkers she picks on, Sansa and Arya. To complicate matters, Cersei is Arya’s manager and used to be Sansa’s (and my) manager as well before a team reorganization (and outranks the rest of us, even those who don’t report directly to her), and she absolutely has used that in her bullying. Sansa finally filed a complaint last week after an incident where Cersei literally, physically, forcibly shut her out of a team meeting. Sansa’s complaint went to her new direct manager at our HQ across the country, and the SVP over our department.

    However, it seems the extent of their investigation so far is just talking directly to Cersei and Sansa – not checking in with any of the rest of us, who were there and witnessed the altercation – and unfortunately, like many bullies, Cersei is expert at making herself out to be the victim. She’s claiming Sansa has always been a “problem employee” and “insubordinate” and that the rest of us all get along great.

    Which is BS. She’s only openly bullied Sansa and Arya, but she’s rude, demanding, and micromanaging to all of us, and the rest of us are extremely wary of her. She’s one of those people who’s good at sucking up to people with power and walking all over everyone else, so upper management never sees this side of her. When Cersei is out of the office or working remotely, the whole vibe of the office changes – we all stop walking on eggshells and actually work together smoothly to get things done. My birthday lunch was last week and Cersei had a call she couldn’t miss, so she couldn’t go, and I later joked to one of my friends on the team that that was the universe giving me the best birthday present of all. That’s the level of “literally nobody likes you” that we’re dealing with re Cersei.

    So I want to speak up to the leadership at HQ and ask if they’d be willing to hear my perspective on things – but this investigation is supposed to be a “secret”. Sansa told me that the SVP requested that she keep this “between the four of us” – meaning Sansa, Cersei, Sansa’s new manager, and the SVP. I don’t want to get Sansa in trouble for talking about it – but I’m very much afraid that if I don’t speak up, Cersei will be successful in painting herself as the victim and getting Sansa fired. How do I navigate this tightrope and make it clear to management that there’s more to this story than Cersei is telling them, without getting Sansa in trouble, without being censured myself for jumping into issues that don’t concern me?

    1. Alexander Graham Yell*

      Can you bring it up and act like you don’t know there is an investigation? Kind of a “I’ve hesitated to bring this up, but I need to let somebody in HR know what I witnessed the other day,” type thing.

      1. rageismycaffeine*

        This. I did this when going to HR about our terrible department head, rather than mentioning that I knew very well that others had gone to HR and HR had advised them that more people needed to come forward. Portray it as being your own impetus.

        1. Jadelyn*

          Well…the complicating factor is, I’m in HR, as are Cersei/Sansa/etc. (Which gets us into all kinds of “who watches the watchers” stuff, and I’m incredibly disappointed that they don’t seem to be properly investigating this the way they would if it had happened in a different department.) So there’s no way I wouldn’t already know that HR is aware of the situation, and I’m not sure I could frame it as “letting HR know what happened”.

          But I might be able to reach out to the SVP directly – I’ve done work specifically for and with her on a number of projects recently – and frame it as “I’m sure this is getting addressed somewhere behind the scenes where I’m not seeing it, but since it’s affected the rest of us as well, I’d like to talk with you about it.”

          1. rageismycaffeine*

            Oh, I didn’t realize that part! But still I think the same applies regardless of whether you’re going to HR or leadership. Do you have an obligation as a member of HR to report these things to the SVP either way?

            1. Jadelyn*

              You know, that’s…actually a really good question. I’m not entirely sure what the obligation is if you already know they’ve been notified (I’m not in the employee relations side of HR so I don’t usually deal with this sort of thing personally), but I might be able to frame it around wanting to be sure that I’ve done my due diligence in reporting not only an incident, but a pattern of bullying and misbehavior to the appropriate person – and since it involves the HR manager, the SVP is really the only one I can go to. Thank you!

              1. Alexander Graham Yell*

                Yes! This sounds like a solid strategy. I really hope there’s a positive resolution to this.

              2. Moray*

                Maybe frame it as “previous altercations I’ve witnessed were only verbal clashes, but because this got physical I think it’s especially important that you know about it.”

    2. President Porpoise*

      Maybe file your own complaint, without mentioning that you know that there’s another investigation open? Good on you for trying to stick up for your coworkers. Bullies suck.

      1. Jadelyn*

        I can’t *quite* do that – see above re being in HR myself, so there’s no possible way I wouldn’t know there was already a complaint filed. But thank you – I was bullied very, very badly as a teenager so I hate seeing that being perpetuated by adults who damn well ought to know better.

    3. ACDC*

      You say “I have some information I think you should know, when can we set up a time to talk.” I’ve done this before and it really is (or should be) that simple. I get your hesitation for bringing it up or adding fuel to the fire, but this is important and you will feel a lot better after speaking up.

      1. Jadelyn*

        Thank you for this – I get caught up sometimes in trying to find the exact right wording, how to say something in a way that absolutely nobody could possibly be upset by, what the politics around the situation are…and I forget that it really can be as simple as “I want to make sure you know this, when can we talk?”

        The email is away – I sent to the SVP (who is apparently on vacation until next Thursday) and said:

        “I’d like to set up some time to talk with you about the situation with Cersei and Sansa. Can we arrange a time where I can call from my cell? This isn’t a conversation I’m keen to have in my (shared) office.

        I’m sure there are already conversations happening that I’m not part of, but I felt like it would be remiss of me if I didn’t also reach out and share my own concerns with you, as a witness and bystander to the ongoing tensions in this office.”

        Pressing send on that was almost physically painful – but it’s out there now, and that’s that.

        1. Not So NewReader*

          Does your company have a harassment policy? Does it include bullying? If yes so far then does it have a statement where anyone witnessing harassment/bullying must report it?
          If yes to everything, then that is your opening, “Our harassment policy includes a part that says when someone witnesses bullying then that witness must report it. I need to report this to you, SVP.”

          IF this does not fit your setting, you could go a different way and nudge the reporter to tell the person she reported it to that there are witnesses that can be interviewed.

          Or if you are really ticked you can do both.

  73. Crocheted familiar*

    People with history degrees/who majored in history: which fields did you end up in and how did you get your start in them? Are there any specific tips you have for getting into non-history fields? What about history-adjacent ones, like museums and conservation?

    I’ve been job searching for about a year now and it’s getting really demoralising how few jobs I can find that I’d even be able to do (either they’re senior level and I’m very much not, or I’m not actually able to do it because of my disabilities, or it’s in an area I’m totally unqualified in, like finance or medicine, or I need a PhD, which I’m currently reading for in order to get a proposal together, but I need a job in the meantime) and I’m running out of ideas regarding which fields to even look in. Help thinking about options a history degree would be accepted in would be greatly appreciated.

    1. Admissions counselor*

      I have a BA in history. After a summer internship at the National Archives (which was horrible) I realized that I didn’t have much interest in going into the field.

      I’m an admissions counselor and have been for several years now. I have a master’s in higher education. My history degree taught me a lot– for example, I am very good at public speaking because it was a major component of my coursework. I can write efficiently and professionally. And I am very good at research and citing sources. All of these tools help me in my role and are broadly applicable in many ares of higher education.

      Have you considered higher ed?

      1. Crocheted familiar*

        I’ve only considered higher ed as a position post-PhD. I’ve thought about stuff like student welfare (a lot of my experience is in representational student politics and disability stuff), but I never really thought about the other positions that exist. What does being an admissions counsellor entail? Both as a broad field and the general day-to-day work?

    2. prospect researcher*

      fundraising prospect research! I love history majors who are looking to get into my field. It’s a lot of transferable skills – critical thinking, research, curiosity. Look up Apra – it’s our professional organization – for more information. :)

    3. Wearing Many Hats*

      Don’t go into museums. I had a history degree, worked in customer service management for years and then got my Master’s in Museum Studies, just like all those job postings said I needed. Turns out you also need years of unpaid or underpaid internships to break in. While I met some great people and had a good time learning about things I love, ultimately my graduate degree was a waste of time and money.

      Now I work in HR.

      1. Crocheted familiar*

        That’s really good to know. I’m in the UK so I don’t know if that makes a difference, but I get the feeling that to even get into museums here I’d probably need a PhD or something else that’s museum-specific. Do you mind telling me a bit more about how you got into HR? Did you have to get any qualifications or did you just apply to entry-level positions? How did you structure your CV/resume to make the history degree seem relevant (did you even have to do this?)? What kinds of places did you look in?

        1. Wearing Many Hats*

          I’m in the US, so while the structure of national vs private museums is different, from what I understand the difficulty of securing a position is similar. I got into HR because I love building culture (hey museums!), I understand labor laws (hey retail!) and am pretty good at thinking holistically about the needs of the business and the needs of employees. I got a job by positioning my customer service management and going back to entry level roles (after 8 years of retail management). Honestly I only keep my degree on my resume to explain what would otherwise looks like job hopping but is explained in cover letters as grad school. I made the big attempt at a career switch 5 years ago and finished up my degree 3 years ago. It’s been very difficult–good luck!

      2. Polaris*

        Oh hey, we have a similar story! Only my Master’s was in Archives. I had a few unpaid internships that led nowhere, after which I worked terrible jobs (security!) at museums in hopes that familiarity with the staff might let me advance someday.

        I’m an assistant at a law firm now.

        1. Wearing Many Hats*

          YUP. I feel you. I graduated from an Ivy League’s extension program and about 2/3 the way through I realized very, very few people from the program *actually* got jobs from in the museum field unless they worked their already or could take very low paying jobs. I got one of those very low paying but hanging with the conservators jobs and it still didn’t go anywhere. I work at a start up.

    4. Natalie*

      Well, I ended up being an accountant but I wouldn’t say majoring in history had anything specific to do with it. It was more chance and finding out that I have an aptitude for a field I hadn’t known anything about. That said, I’ve worked with a lot of accountants that majored in humanities. My CFO was apparently this close to double majoring in philosophy.

    5. Captain Cassowary*

      I have a history background–went all the way through and did the PhD and everything–and am now back in school as a middle-aged career shifter studying archives and records management. I would suggest looking into the records/knowledge management suite of information science and information management fields, since there’s a lot of skills overlap and there are also private-sector jobs that pay decently. Archives is more of a non-profit area of focus, but also a possibility. I see from your post below that you’re in the UK and I can’t speak to that, but if you were in the US I would advise you not to do a PhD unless you’re independently wealthy. The academic job market is vile and history PhDs have the same issues with translating their skills to other fields that you’re experiencing as a BA graduate.

      Good luck!

      1. Sprite*

        I second the library/ information science/ information management field recommendation. I majored in history and literature in undergrad, but found that getting a master’s degree in library and information science made me actually employable. I worked in all kinds of libraries at first (public, university, corporate), and now put my research and writing skills to work in a strategic planning role in a large company.

        1. Crocheted familiar*

          I already have a Master’s in medieval history so I don’t think a Master’s in a different area would be an option for me, but I wonder if I could start looking at libraries and information and records and try to leverage my knowledge of working with very specific records and organisational systems into an entry-level job somewhere. Thank you both for the ideas.

      2. OtterB*

        I agree. I have known several people with degrees in history who ended up doing records management work.

    6. Allypopx*

      History degrees are really common in the non-profit sector, in all kinds of positions! I’ve always worked with at least a couple people with history or public history backgrounds.

    7. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

      I have a BA in history and ended up working at a reproductive health nonprofit, which led to an MPH in Maternal and Child Health (11 years after graduating with my BA). I’m currently working as a Researcher for a university and planning on applying for PhD/DrPH programs.

      I still love, love, love history and have considered ways to combine the two, but now it’s consigned to a hobby, which is actually fine with me. I get a lot of joy out of reading nonfiction books about my particular historical interests and while I considered a PhD in History, I think bypassing that field in academia was the right move for me. I do have a keen appreciation for the lessons I learned in undergrad, particularly related to research.

  74. The dude*

    So I’m resigning! I’ve found a new job that’s great, and I’m primarily leaving because my work has some pretty unfair policies. And to a lesser extent, some disappointing behavior from managers in my department not supporting my colleagues. (My immediate manager is fine.)

    I’ve been identified as a high performer, that I’m being groomed for promotions, that my company really prioritizes keeping me, etc. So I’m sure this is going to come as unpleasant news.

    I would be willing to come back to the company, but there would have to be some policy changes first. I’m not sure I’d come back to my department unless the leaders got better at supporting people.

    I’m not sure how honest to be about this? I can’t tell whether I’ll burn bridges by saying I disagreed with policy or that I was disappointed over specific instances of managers in my department not supporting my colleagues.

    Thoughts ?

    1. CAA*

      To your manager, start by saying that you are leaving for a new opportunity and your last date will be x. If she pushes to find out what drove you to look for a new job, say that you want to broaden your horizons or work in a new area or something similar. You can mention the policies that you found troubling but don’t dwell on them. Information about non-supportive behavior by other managers is not likely to be of much interest, so keep that to yourself. Just keep it as short, professional and non-personal as possible.

      Be prepared for them to make a counter offer and have answers like “I appreciate the effort, but I’m really ready to move on to the new company and won’t be staying here.” Do not talk about coming back in the future or fall into a conversation about what they would have to do to keep you. You aren’t going to effect major changes by quitting, no matter what they’ve said in the past about how valuable you are and counter offers very rarely work out. If you do decide to accept one, make sure to get all the details, including any change in reporting structure, in writing, with effective dates.

  75. Catherine de Medici*

    I just accepted a GS-13 in a different office of my agency! I’m both super excited and nervous. I’ve been in my current position since I started fresh out of grad school 5 years ago and it feels weird/scary to be doing something new.

    When I told my current boss, he was happy for me and understood I needed to do what I had to for my career. However, he kept talking about how it was going to take four people to replace what I do and it’ll be such a loss for the section. I’m flattered he thinks so highly of me but at the same time, if he feels that way, he should have made more of an effort to keep me. Very conflicted feelings at the moment. Happy, excited, sad, nervous! Everything all at once!

  76. Justin*

    All of the school things are happening. Literally all of this happened yesterday. Gonna notch 8/15/19 in the “big dates” mind grapes.

    1. First time ever (like, in my life) getting an A+, and I got two in my classes this summer. I’m not a grade obsessor, but who knows if it’ll happen again. It only took me until (checks notes) 19th grade.

    2. I was told that my proposal was accepted for a newsletter (so, not a peer reviewed journal, but it’s still an opportunity for my writing to be disseminated) that will be released in November. I have to, uh, write the article, but, cool.

    3. My proposal to present a more extensive paper was accepted for the (my state, my subfield) conference this November. Cool. (Same paper is under consideration for peer-reviewed publication; will learn about that in a while.)

    4. I’ve come around to the advice many gave us about my frustration with my classmates working differently/more slowly/asking for extensions. I think I really got mad once one asked for a group extension on my behalf without asking me, and I can just choose to get over that. The program is paying attn to my work regardless. I wish them success and I help when I can.

    5. My job is still not very stimulating and mostly frustrating, but I have a lot of other stuff going on so I just choose to accept it be like that sometimes (and I’ll find a way to work with my studies professionally by the time I finish my doctorate in a few years).

    Thanks as always for support. (If anyone wants to know wtf I actually write about, surely will be glad to explain, but I didn’t want to bore all of you.)

    1. Erin*

      I’d like to know what you’re writing about! I’m currently trying to gather the motivation to revise/improve a paper that I wrote in grad school last year (just graduated in June) so that I can try to submit it for publication a few places.

      1. Justin*

        Sorry for how long this took. I’m writing about the intersection between racism and language studies, and the defensiveness that prevents the latter from grappling with the former.

  77. ImpostorSyndrome*

    I am having major impostor syndrome at work due to the fact that I recently discovered that I am younger than our office interns. I have a coordinator position at a small university run nonprofit, so we take on a lot of student interns. I knew they would be close to me in age, because I graduated from school earlier than I was supposed to. I don’t think anyone at my work knows I am the age that I am (since I have several years of work history, it’s pretty easy to assume I am older). My birthday is coming up, and when I go to lunch I’m worried someone will ask me and make a big deal of it. I know it’s all in my head, but I feel like people will start to think less of me. Or worse, baby me like they did in my last job.

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      I feel ya. I was talking to one of our consultants, who we both thought were around each other’s ages since we have a similar-ish work history, though technically I have more experience in the area. Found out that they are 10 years older than me.

      Most people at work think I’m 10-15 years older than what I am. It’s definitely weird! But keep in mind that you are in your position because your employer felt you are *worthy* and *capable* in that position. Doesn’t matter how old you are – you handle your position like a boss, and that’s why you are there!

      1. ImpostorSyndrome*

        Isn’t that the weirdest feeling! I’ve had multiple occasions where I thought the person with me (client, new hire, etc) were the same age only to find that they are wayyy older. When will I start working with people my age lol.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      When someone asks how old you are, just say: Old enough to know better than to answer that question!

    3. ACDC*

      I am in a similar position from graduating college earlier than my peers, plus working in professional jobs throughout college so having more experience than the average recent grad would. I never talk about my age, and if someone asks I make a joke out of it like “old enough to work here!” or something like that.

    4. Working Hypothesis*

      If you are younger than the interns, this means you are probably considered a serious superstar, to be in a FTE position at an age when most folks are still interning. Even if it’s basically just because you started your work life earlier than they did, you’re likely to be impressing the hell out of people for it, not considered less significant for it. Try to hang onto that!

  78. Risk Averse*

    Long time listener, first time caller.

    I left a very toxic nonprofit leadership position at the end of July and intended to take a few months off, recharge, and then re-enter the job market. However, an opportunity at a women’s advocacy / reproductive health organization opened up very unexpectedly and I applied. And now I have an interview for an awesome multi-state job with a lot of growth potential!

    But I live in a red state, albeit a purple metro area. This is an organization I have donated to, believe in wholeheartedly, but I worry about possible career implications. I am just over-thinking this, right, especially because I know I don’t even have an offer yet?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      Employers care about your skills, not necessarily your previous employer. As long as there is no scandal, you will be okay to move on when it is time.

      1. Blarg*

        Unfortunately, when things like abortion and birth control are part of the services an organization offers, it very much can impact how employers see you.

        Actual quote from a hospital recruiter to me: “you’d be better off having no experience than THAT experience.”

        But I was happy to know that and not work for them.

    2. Blarg*

      I worked in clinical services at such a place. It does impact my job prospects. And, frankly, I’m good with that. It’s like pre-screening employers: if you won’t even talk to me because I worked at this org, I don’t want to work for you.

      The one caution I’d throw out is if you live in an area where the only hospitals are Catholic and you may want to work in said hospitals in the future, it may be a consideration.

      But mostly: do the work you believe in. Do good work. Make the world, or the country, or your city a little bit better in the best way you know how.

      Good luck!

      1. Risk Averse*

        Thanks for the encouragement! The position is non-clinical (more of an HR leadership role) and having done some googling, many people in non-clinical roles have gone on to even bigger and better things.

        And yes, I agree it is time to make the world a better place!

    3. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

      Third (fourth?) the comments about it affecting future prospects. I live in a red, red state in a red city and the only job I’ve worked that’s been located here (I work remotely now for a university and before that for a national nonprofit that was 100% remote) was for a nonprofit whose ED was super liberal and had actually gotten gyn care at the clinic where I worked in public policy. Every other job I’ve applied for here I’ve never even gotten an interview, even with the right qualifications.

      That said, there’s nothing potentially stopping you from staying in the field long term (I’ve been in it for 14 years now) or possibly finding a future job with employers who are appreciative of the skills you have/acquired in the role. People I know from repro who are no longer in that field are working in nonprofits whose missions they support. But, yes, bottom line is that it has affected my prospects overall and is a source of contention in my marriage because of my desire to move to someplace with better prospects.

      1. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

        I also feel the need to warn that years ago my husband didn’t get a job because of where I worked. LSS, one person on a committee didn’t like it and everyone else deferred to his objection. I’m much more careful about my wording now (usually I’ll say reproductive health, which most ppl don’t understand and be as vague as possible if pressed), but it was a lesson learned.

  79. A. Ham*

    I now have a standing desk! (I inherited if from someone who left. They asked around my small department and no one else- who didn’t have one already- wanted it so I thought I would give it a try).
    It’s only been a little over a week but so far I’m really liking it. It has been especially useful for that 3pm slump, and has helped me keep my energy up at that time.
    If you have a standing desk- do you still use it as much as when you first got it, or have you gotten “lazy” about it? What is your usual regimen (how long down, how long up)? Any other tips from more seasoned standing desk users?

    1. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I’m interested to hear how people use/like their standing desk as well. I recently developed sciatica and am thinking that a standing desk will help combat some of the symptoms.

      1. ACDC*

        I miss my standing desk so much. I didn’t stand all day, but would make a point to stand for 10-20 minutes every 2-3 hours. If you get one of the squishy mats to stand on it’s even better.

    2. Alianora*

      I have one, but I only stand for an hour or so per day. I wouldn’t say I’ve gotten lazy about it since I didn’t ever use it more than that.

    3. Colette*

      I have one. How I use it depends on what I’m doing that day. (If I have a lot of meetings, I like standing in between; if I’m not feeling 100% I sit all day). Most days I stand for an hour or two, but not necessarily all at once.

      But I love having it, and would miss it if I moved back to a regular desk.

      1. Colette*

        On, and one of the things I really like it for is when I need to show someone else something on my screen. That’s easier when we’re both standing.

    4. Ali G*

      I love mine. I don’t use it as much as I should. I try to use it when I am on calls at my desk, have a lot of typing to do, or at least once a day. I stand for about an hour at a time. It helps with energy and since I have a nerve condition in my leg, it helps me manage my pain a bit. Also, being short, sometimes it’s just more comfortable to stand.

    5. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      I work from home full time and have an adjustable desk setup.

      My setup/usage: 95%+ standing (I’m too lazy to adjust it down most of the time), with the caveat that I do go for walks/breaks every one to two hours (water, restroom, fresh air, etc.)

      Some tips:
      -Wear comfortable shoes (or barefoot if you can) and/or ask your company to invest in a stress mat to stand on.
      -When not in meetings, consider developing a habit of adjusting your stance every few minutes (i.e. move your feet; do tiny knee bends; shift weight to the outsides/insides/toes/heels of your feet for a few seconds then go back to neutral)
      -Stack books or use a desk riser so your monitor is at eye level

    6. The Drawstring Bag*

      I use mine for about 45mins in morning and then in afternoon. I do sometimes ‘forget’ that I have it. Definitely get a mat to stand on.

    7. Windchime*

      I originally got mine when I was having really bad back trouble and it was painful to sit for long periods of time. I used the standing desk a lot back then; probably 30% of my day was spent standing. My back is better now, so I only stand about an hour a day but I really should use it more. I’m really tall, so I think it doesn’t really go up quite high enough. I could probably just get them to raise my actual desk a couple of inches and that would fix the problem.

    8. Earthwalker*

      I built a box on my desk for a computer stand before the company started to spring for real standing desks, so I worked all day standing at first. But that wasn’t all day, really, since there were meetings to go to and lunch hour and so on when I’d be sitting. So it wasn’t as hard as I expected. But I’ve found that while standing is better than sitting, standing in one position still isn’t the same as moving. I have muscles that are shortened from standing or weak from lack of use and have needed physical therapy even after standing at work, but I’m convinced that those are smaller problems than I’d have had if I’d stayed in my chair.

    9. Not My Money*

      I only stand – I don’t even have a chair. I find having a little block to put a foot up helps with fatigue (think like a railing at a bar but literally a couple of 2x4s screwed together).

  80. Close Bracket*

    Two days ago at work, I walked in on the tail end of somebody’s story, a senior, middle-aged guy, probably in his 50s, about how he was out somewhere and looked around and realized that all the men in his vicinity had long hair. He made some comments that I didn’t quite follow about toxic masculinity and “feminized millennial men.” The comments about longhair were already pretty stupid (and I should note that my manager is a guy with long hair(in his 50s, not a millennial)), so I was wondering if I should say something or just let him tell me who he was in the store the information for future use. But then when he tried to connect (and I’m not sure how?) toxic masculinity and long hair on men, I told him I was pretty sure that when people talked about toxic masculinity that they were not talking about hair length. He shut up after that.
    So while this was sexist, it was mostly just a revelation of some screwed up attitudes towards gender and I’m not sure I could conclude that he was being discriminatory. My job title says senior in it, but I have only been there four months and I am definitely junior to him. I would have said something regardless. I would have said something to my own manager if he made comments like that. I know there’s a very strong “you don’t have the standing to say things to people” feeling on this blog, but I don’t subscribe to it. Regardless of my standing, being new, I did risk damaging a work relationship that I need to maintain. In situations like these, where somebody says something stupid that you don’t agree with but that doesn’t cross the line into an EEOC problem, how do people make a decision about when to speak up and when to let it go?

    1. LCL*

      Speaking up in the moment is always the best thing to do, if you feel safe doing so. The analysis can come later.

      1. Close Bracket*

        “Speaking up in the moment is always the best thing to do”

        That misses a lot if nuance in work relationships.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      I think the “not enough standing yet to speak up” at work tends to be about work-specific things, like flexible schedules, dress codes, and sometimes work assignments. For more social situations, even at work, speaking up is more about who is involved, the power relationships, and whether you are comfortable taking a stand. Maybe that’s just nuance, but to me the difference in the first situation is that the main factor is you (and not necessarily who you’re talking to) and the second situation is equally you and the person you’re talking to, and possibly any audience.

      I think what you said was fine and I probably would have said something similar myself, if just out of confusion (isn’t toxic masculinity the thing that leads to feeling threatened by ‘feminized millennials’?). If it did ruin the work relationship that tells you something about that person and that the relationship was doomed anyway if that person was prone to making those kinds of comments.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      I am not a big fan of the thing of having standing, as I think there are exceptions. And I think there is something to saying NO early and saying it HARD. If you sit around waiting for “standing” that ship will have sailed.

      In my opinion you handled this perfectly. You said something rather than nothing. Additionally you pointed out that you are person who looks at things logically, which will make this person think twice about being stupid around you again.

      Consider for a moment that this is a person who barely knows you (or perhaps just met you?). And he is talking like this. He feels free to say whatever to whomever and you were totally correct in drawing your lines fast here.

      Basically here is what happened:
      Him: [Line of bs stereotyping.]
      You: [“Not cool. Not around ME.”]
      Him: DONE

      My wise friend used to say there is always a price when we take a stand. Always. It is reasonable to assume that the two of you may bump heads again. BUT. There are people who want to know what we are made out of and they test us to find out. I had an aunt like this. I put my foot down fast and hard. I did not have problems with her that other people had.

      You won this one. You have established yourself as a quick thinker. In the days/weeks to come, take it one instance at a time. Mirror back to him his own attitude toward you. If he has more bs, step on the bs again. If his demeanor is kinder then you can be kinder.

      I think he will probably be a little kinder.

  81. Pinky Pie*

    I work from home. My interactions with my employer are email only. I email my coworkers. When it comes time for a new job, how do I explain that I have no current work references?

    1. Environmental Compliance*

      Is there a reason you can’t use your current employer? You’re still turning in work products and interacting with them, even if it’s over email.

    2. Lemon Zinger*

      Why wouldn’t you have references? Surely your coworkers know you by email and your work interactions that way…?

      1. Pinky Pie*

        I’m very independent on this job. I’m a contractor who is goes in for a consultant position. My employer places me there, my coworkers are for emergency help. I just don’t feel like I have a professional relationship with them.

        2. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I’d go with something like “You’re welcome to contact [most reasonable person to serve as a reference at current job], but due to the nature of my contract role and the independent, remote nature of the work, I’m not sure they can give you a full picture of what I’m like as an employee. You may also want to contact [person from elsewhere who would be a better reference] or [other option] to get a better sense of how I’d perform in [position you’re applying for].”

          That way, it’s clear that you’re not trying to hide anything, and you’re giving them options.

        3. Clisby*

          Are any of the consultant positions repeats? Or particularly long-lasting? Can’t clients be references?

    3. TwoWeeksToday*

      If it helps, I’ve never given a current work associate as a reference. I only provide references who I’ve formerly worked with/for.

    4. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      When I left my previous job, the department I worked with the most was located several states away so everything was handled through email. I’d already had references, but I had several of them offer to be references now and in the future. So you can most certainly use remote coworkers as references.

    5. pcake*

      I’ve worked from home as a contractor since 2001, and I’ve had no problem using employers are references.

  82. Environmental Compliance*

    I finally had my conversation with Corporate in regards to being blocked in any disciplinary action for my DR. They are Not Entertained, and told me flat out they have my back if any further shenanigans occur, and have asked me to send one more email with a request & summary to Boss, then escalate up.

    Coincidentally, our project manager, who has quite a bit of political pull, is now for some reason in charge of collecting & revamping all position descriptions across the facility. They were confused that I was submitting one, questioned why the position that is supposed to be technical expert had any direct reports, got the backstory from me, was also Not Entertained, and left it at “Let me see what I can do.” So that’s neat.

    Otherwise, I get to have a student job shadow me later this month, and I’m very excited about it! They are the pilot student (aka guinea pig) for my facility to open this up more in the future.

    1. Kathenus*

      I’ve been following your saga and glad that things are getting to a place that might result in some constructive action. I’m guessing there may be some bumps along the road due to your boss, but great that Corporate is in your corner. Good on you for keeping up the fight on this to get to real action.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        Yeah, I’m guessing that Boss is going to view this as a “going over their head” threat thing, which…well, yeah, I’m going over your head, because this is a huge problem, and my job is to not have these Huge Problems happen. If you handle things properly, this should never need to be escalated.

        I haven’t sent the email yet, because I’m waiting to see if this can get solved by now multiple people raising the same point, but I do have it typed up and saved on my personal email.

  83. Throwaway Name*

    I’m wondering if I’m way off base being annoyed by a leave/telecommute arrangement a former coworker has been given that doesn’t seem fair. It seems like doing weird things with your parental/maternity leave is becoming a growing trend. My old boss, Matt, did this when his wife had a baby. They took a combo of full time and half time leave to give themselves an extra month without childcare costs. I don’t take issue with this, and I get childcare is expensive, but my former coworker, Brenda, is now expecting and she’s doing something similar. Brenda will be taking a month of full time leave, then she returns for a half time leave. It sounds like she’s also been given a telecommuting arrangement that is allowing her to extend her leave almost a full academic year (we worked in education, but in a non-teaching capacity).

    The telecommuting is what’s bothering me because Matt was always really stingy about work from home arrangements when I worked there. Even one off requests, like “the cable guy is coming sometime between 11-3. Can I work from home that day?” (I made this request; It was denied. I had to come in, leave to meet the cable guy, and then come back to the office. Granted I was the most client facing person, but it was still obnoxious because I lived ~20 minutes away so I spent over an hour of my day driving back and forth :/). I had another former coworker, Noah, who made a request for more consistent telecommuting. He was considering relocating with his partner over an hour away, but wanted to stay at our org if possible (hence the request for a few days of telecommuting per week). Matt denied this request, and told him his position was “impossible” to do remotely. Noah had less direct client interaction than Brenda does, but somehow it’s possible for her to telecommute? I remember Noah quit to relocate a few months later, and Matt was somehow dumbfounded he actually left!

    The other layer to this is that Brenda is clearly Matt’s favorite employee, so this seems like a way of bending over backwards to make her happy. Am I wrong for thinking that this remote arrangement isn’t fair since Matt has denied it for others in the past? (Luckily, I’m in a new office now that is much more flexible. But I couldn’t help but be annoyed when I found this out earlier this week)

    1. Mazzy*

      I understand your annoyance but I don’t think this is the hill to die on, because American maternity is so darn short, your coworker almost has to cobble together other time and work from home to get to a decent amount of time. I have no clue how people leave a tiny 6 week old alone!

      1. valentine*

        It’s fine if telecommuting’s only available for parental leave. Your cable and other problems aren’t your employer’s and it’s reasonable to expect you to work your shift, especially when you serve clients. Were they blocking you from using PTO or booking the appointment on a day you already had off? Shut off the info valve until you can stop caring how Matt manages. It’s only hurting you.

    2. CAA*

      How do Brenda’s current coworkers feel? Has Matt changed his outlook on teleworking for everyone? Maybe fatherhood or losing Noah has given him a new perspective and he’s loosened up a bit. It’s hard to say whether the current arrangement is “fair” or not, and fairness might not be the best measure of whether it’s appropriate. Brenda’s work arrangement might be what’s best for the department, even if it looks unfair from the outside.

      As to your feelings about it, of course it’s o.k. to be annoyed. Brenda got something you asked for and didn’t get. Hopefully this is a small annoyance though and it’s not taking away from how great your new environment is and how nice it is that you don’t have to deal with Matt any more!

      1. Throwaway Name*

        Definitely small annoyance. I’m thankful everyday I left that place (there were many problems; inflexibility was a drop in the bucket). I certainly hope Matt has changed the way he views and handles… a lot of things, but it’s not enough to make me ever want to set foot there again! I posted this mostly bc I was curious what the AAM commenters thoughts would be, but I’m regretting it and wishing there was a way to delete my question! I clearly brought up a touchy subject and I think I’ll just stick to lurking in the future.

        1. Copying the Throwaway Name so I don't get blasted too*

          I think it is the maternity/paternity piece that is what takes this into “YTA” territory. If you had simply left it at leave or a new working arrangement I think you’d probably have more people in agreement that, yeah…Matt is being shitty.
          And Matt might be being shitty – he gave himself leeway and his favorite employee and denied two other employees. Maybe you and Noah leaving changed his thought process or his bosses came down hard on his inflexible policies, or maybe he is allowing himself and his fave DR perks he won’t give to anyone.
          Fine to be annoyed (and justified IMO) but by framing it as a parental leave situation and not just a tight ass manager situation a lot of posters aren’t going to take your side.

    3. LCL*

      In the past Matt was a jerk about this. But then he saw how it could work for him. And now he’s letting his favorite do it. Take this as past practice, and the next person that asks for it can bring up these examples of how it can work. Yeah, the people in the past who were denied will be annoyed.

    4. Alianora*

      If the same options will be extended to Matt’s other employees, I don’t think it’s necessarily unfair. I can understand being annoyed but it could even be that you requesting telecommuting options contributed to him rethinking things.

      1. Throwaway Name*

        No idea what will be the case moving forward, I was mostly annoyed that I had a past coworker make a similar request for a long term arrangement (but not for parental leave) and they ended up leaving because it was denied when they were willing to stay.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      I have seen this a number of times myself.
      It’s hard. But I try to frame it as “hopefully, people learn, grow and become better managers”. The ONLY reason I do this reframing is for my peace of mind. This stuff will lead to stomach ulcers if we let it.
      I try to remind myself of my own conflicting actions and how I must have looked to people. (And probably still do!)

      It sounds like it’s safe to say this was one symptom of a larger group of problems and it was for the best that you got out.

    6. Lilysparrow*

      If Matt were currently applying different standards & policies to employees with the same role, that would be unfair.

      It sounds like you worked there some time ago (more than a year?) And the Noah situation happened even before that.

      It is not at all unusual or unfair for policies to change over time. Especially with something like remote work, where norms & acceptance are changing rapidly right now.

      It’s a bit odd that you are so well-informed on the leave schedules of people you don’t work with anymore. Are you personal friends with Brenda, and she explained all about her plans? Or is someone in the office gossiping about her?

      Because to be honest, other people’s maternity leave is very much not your business. It’s only partially your business with co-workers, to the extent that you need to co-ordinator coverage.

      But you don’t work with Brenda anymore. So unless she’s discussing it with you directly, it’s extremely none of your beeswax, and I’d encourage you to step back from whoever is feeding you this info. They’ll turn your personal business into gossip fodder, too.

  84. Mbarr*

    Tips for how to improve at my new job when I feel VASTLY out of my depth?

    Long story short, I’m petrified I was hired into a roll/company that I’ll never understand and that will fire me cause I’m unable to perform the duties of my job. I’m my team’s pseudo Product Owner/PM/BA. I’m a fast learner, but I don’t have a technical background. This team… It’s like they’re talking Greek (e.g. they talk about software endpoints, architecture solutions, pros and cons of different databases). I catch general gists once in awhile, but mostly when they talk in Dev speak and I have no idea how to interpret it or map it back to my own responsibilities. I tried watching Product Owner training videos, and I understand the gist of what I SHOULD be doing, but don’t know how to implement it in real life.

    I don’t even know what I don’t know until someone points it out. Most recently I was feeling bad cause their manager told me to bug the developers for Acceptance Criteria (AC). Cool. I do that. Then one of them gently points out, it’s technically MY job to provide AC. That’s totally fair… But I don’t even have a list of Customer Requirements to pull from, because we’re a brand new suite of software – we KNOW what the basic requirements are, but our internal customers haven’t given us requirements (or, if they did, I have no idea where they’re documented).

    TL;DR Normally I’m a high performer, but at my new job I’m floundering and don’t know how to even go about fixing thing.

    1. LQ*

      You will learn. I promise. (This is me a year ago, I have learned, you will too.)

      Lean into your strength. Research/learning are my strength as is time. I had enough time to basically do all the research to get myself up to speed technically. So far that I’m frequently correcting much more technical than I folks on the details. (Maybe not frequently, but way more than you’d expect.)
      If your strength is relationships, focus on building and learning that way. What are your strengths? How do you grow into a job? Do a lot of that. And try to find yourself extra time to get up to speed, you’ll make it up to yourself later.

    2. Mazzy*

      How did you get into a role that is so out of your depth? This whole situation is concerning and what I try to avoid when hiring. The not knowing what you don’t know is the most alarming part. Do you have any peers to talk to about this, and how they went for the first few months on the job?

      1. Mbarr*

        To be clear, I’ve only been here two months, so yes, it’s early… But I’m used to progressing MUCH faster. I’ve also been told I don’t need to know the technical stuff – which seems odd to me considering HOW technical it IS so far. BUT, maybe it’s just that the developers are used to operating in a technical bubble?

        I don’t really have peers – there’s only one other PO and his product is vastly different from mine. I like what he does, but again, I can’t replicate it into my team’s processes.

        As for how I was hired – I was referred by multiple people (tech writers) and went through 2 interviews. I was frank that I didn’t have the experience, but I banked on my fast learning skills at other jobs.

        1. Mazzy*

          I see. Is there anyway to work backwards through old projects to see what was done, or is all of that stuff you need in private email accounts or not in shared drives?

    3. MissDisplaced*

      I do the marketing for a team that is highly technical (I’m technical, but not in this area). I don’t think I really began to get it until about the 1 year mark, even though I have to write about it for external audiences. It’s also a difficult company culture to navigate, where you either don’t know where/who to go to, or get a lot of runaround from certain teams that don’t want to do their job. It makes it very difficult, but fortunately my direct team is awesome. Some things that helped me:

      >Can you enlist an experienced someone from your Dev team to be your mentor?
      >Have you gone though all the company training?
      >Sometimes just asking “How can I help the team the most?” or “What do I need to do to get up to speed faster?”
      >Take it in chunks: Do you have list of weekly duties? If not, ask your manager for help making one and for help prioritizing them. And ask who to go to for each duty if you have questions or need other input to complete it.
      >Spend time researching the industry, product or offering.
      >Ask for help! If you really don’t understand something, ask to schedule a meeting to review in detail a process with the person who is the expert.

      In most cases if you’re new you might have a grace period where no one really expects you to be 100% until your up to speed. So you shouldn’t feel bad asking before things get really bad. However, if you feel things are getting really bad, you need to schedule some time with your manager to discuss where you’re floundering and what you’ve mapped out to try to address this and improve.
      Maybe you’re not as bad as you think?
      Or maybe you are, and then that’s also something to be proactive about, and ultimately both of you making a plan to keep trying for X-amount of time or being honest about your ability to see it through in the long term and discussing how to make an exit that works for all concerned. If you otherwise like the company and want to stay, remaining calm and professional while still admitting defeat might help them place you a role better suited for you (if possible).

      1. Mbarr*

        Thanks! I go through phases of, “this isn’t so bad” and “OMG I’m so useless!”

        I need to tackle my peer/hand-holder and my manager. I have 1:1s with both of them, but due to vacations, illnesses, office politics craziness, I haven’t had any for over a month. I’m hoping they’ll pat me on the head and say, “Don’t worry, you’re doing fine.” still.

    4. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

      If you are a PO and working Agile, you can start with some very high level AC for the user story, but it should be up to the team to determine if there is enough AC for them to begin the work (i.e. criteria that tells the developer when to stop coding and gives boundaries for QA to test). If there are no requirements or user stories yet, then yeah…no AC can be surmised. Depending on how technical the requirement/user story is, it’s not your job then to solely provide AC, but to capture it from the team and ensure that it’s all good before making the user story a candidate for Sprint Planning. Good luck!

  85. Rose's angel*

    I am currently going through IVF (first time) while job hunting. I have a couple possibilities but things are still uncertain but I am wondering. Am I wrong for job hunting? Should I wait until after this round (and if it succeeds after my pregnancy)? And if I am hired some where how do I address this? Or do I even address it and just not tell anyone about IVF. Part of me feels like I am lying when I interview with an employer by not mentioning it. If I want to have children I have to do IVF now. Waiting isnt an option unfortunately.

    1. WellRed*

      All I can say is, if you weren’t doing IVF and got pregnant the natural way (ugh, that doesn’t sound great, sorry, better phrasing escapes me), you would handle it, work would handle it. Babies and life happen. I realize because this is a planned process it feels different.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I conceived on day 5 of a new job. It happens. Waiting wasn’t a good option for us either.

      You are not wrong for job hunting – if you’re an excellent candidate then you’ll be an excellent employee whether you take x weeks out for maternity (or whatever) or not. If you’re not applying for fixed-term contracts which you wouldn’t be able to complete if the IVF is successful, but for permanent roles or equivalent, your fertility journey is irrelevant.

      Very best of luck on both fronts.

    3. Mbarr*

      As the others say, don’t worry about it. Just keep job hunting. IVF doesn’t guarantee results.

      After you get a job, don’t bring it up either (if you have continuing appointments, just tell your manager they’re for “medical” reasons). It’s not the job’s business to know what’s going on in your uterus, and it opens potential avenues for them to push you out, whether it’s on purpose or unrealized bias.

    4. Silent Observer*

      This is a rough one. I was in this same boat about a year ago. I decided to stay in my less-than-great job because:
      1. It had good benefits, like medical that covered IVF.
      2. I had been at my agency for long enough that I qualified for really good PTO (for the US). So i could be off for 12 weeks with almost 100% pay and had FMLA protections.

      I worried about leaving during the IVF/pregnancy because:
      1. Interviewing at smaller agencies, smaller benefits.
      2. I conceived on the first round of IVF and wouldn’t have been able to qualify for FMLA.
      3. IVF was stressful enough. I worried that job searching/starting a new job might have caused too much stress and difficulties conceiving.

      So consider those if you’re worried about benefits and time off/protected status. Many jobs will only give you 6 weeks off if you don’t qualify for FMLA.

      And good luck with everything. For me, IVF was a roller coaster. But it worked and now we have an adorable baby.

      1. Rose's angel*

        Thank you. Its not my job but so much my boss. She doesnt like me and shes starting to make it known again. Everyone I am on a project eventually gets a call with a “question” and during the convo shell mention all the mistakes Ive made how she cant stand me etc… Everyone shes done it too has come back to me asking what I did to piss her off so bad. I dont plan on moving unless the benefits and the place are right. Im glad it worked out for you!

  86. AnonyMs.*

    I’m casually job-searching– so casually that I would really prefer to get on recruiters’ radars and have them contact me. One option is to make my resume public on Indeed… but how likely would it be for my company to see that? It’s a small place and they’re hiring. I recently moved to a different city and updated my resume accordingly, so making my info public would be hard to hide as a glitch.

    In addition to that question, any advice for how to get more visible?

    1. Rose's angel*

      Do you have Linkedin? I get almost daily emails from recruiters on Linkedin. There is also an option where you can let recruiters know that you are open for opportunities. I have posted my resume on Indeed and received some emails but I got way more from Linkedin.

    2. irene adler*

      IF by recruiter you are talking about a recruiting firm, then go to the recruiter’s website and sign up/create an account. This will put your resume in their search system. This stands a better chance of them finding you than on a more generic website (like Indeed).
      Indeed will garner calls from some very ‘diverse’ recruiters. I’m a biochemist and I got calls from life insurance companies insisting I had what it takes to sell insurance. And other “not even in my lane” jobs. LI recruiters seem to be more focused on my actual skills than Indeed.

    3. Going Anon*

      One of my coworkers almost got fired for posting his resume to Indeed because his manager saw it. He quit before they actually fired him because he got another job.

  87. Jessica*

    On Monday I had an interview for a baker/barista position at a local co-op – the interview went really well and my interviewer took my references and said that she would call them and that she’d email me to let me know her decision either way, “probably within the next day or two.” But it’s been longer than that and I haven’t heard anything. She hasn’t even called either of my references yet. I really want this job because I love baking and I’m interested in working in that area – should I be concerned? Should I send her an email letting her know I appreciate her taking the time to meet with me and that I’m looking forward to hearing from her?

    1. SophieChotek*

      Did you send an initial follow-up email? If not, then maybe…

      Generally, my sense would be to give it another week (since everything always takes at least 2x as long as they say it will), but…
      my experience has also been that retail/food service tends to move much more quickly in terms of hiring than other areas. (As in sometimes you get hired on the spot at interviews or open interview calls.)

  88. ORD*

    I got a job offer and accepted! This is my first salaried job to salaried job move, and the first where there isn’t anyone to take over the work I’ve been covering. I’ve been looking for resources to guide me through the transition, but everything I’m coming up with seems more focused on what to put in the resignation letter, how many weeks to give, etc. Are there any checklist type resources out there (or any advice in general) on how to navigate things like creating a job manual, switching insurance, etc.?

    2. Tabby Baltimore*

      You might find it helpful to go read this 2016 AAM advice for someone in your shoes. It’s located here: https://www.askamanager.org/2016/09/what-you-need-to-do-before-you-quit-your-job.html
      I’ve summarized what I thought was some of the most useful commenters’ insights below (not all of which are going to be applicable to your situation, I’m afraid):
      – Take home (or pack up) any personal items you have.
      – Use your insurance benefits as much as is feasible before moving on.
      – Back up personal files: Email stuff to yourself or move it to a thumb/flash drive, or move things over onto your Google Drive or Microsoft One drive.
      Early last year I put out a question about writing instruction manuals, and got this great response from commenter Library Land, so you might want to take a look at it and see if it would be helpful to you: https://www.askamanager.org/2018/03/knowledge-swap.html#comment-1908260
      – Provide an “exit memo” which should contain links to where instructions for how to handle your routine tasks are located, where your projects have been left off at, and links to other pertinent files and information.
      – Check the timing of your departure to maximize benefits. Having your last day be the first of the month rather than than the last can sometimes give you an extra month of health benefits and vacation.
      – Check your company’s vacation and holiday policy. Sometimes you only get cash for a max number of days remaining when you leave.
      – Drain your flexible spending accounts.
      – Make sure you get all of your mileage/expense reimbursements submitted and paid for, and make sure everything on your corporate card is accounted for properly.

  89. Mazzy*

    Is anyone else as bothered by title inflation at their company as I am? I come from companies that had a lot of structure and structure around what certain job titles meant, and being in a director role meant you had managers under you who manage people, didn’t mean anything else. And everyone who was above a manager level was usually middle-aged with 20 to 30 years experience. Now I’m in a completely different environment. I feel like my current company hands out titles to keep people, or in lieu of raises, and now people who would’ve been coordinators or Analysts at my previous companies are managers and senior managers and directors. It feels off but I’ve discussed it with my manager and it just is what it is.

    I feel like it lowers expectations for everyone, because people get “moved up” without actually being at that level and then don’t know what they don’t know, so don’t even realize it. I think it contributes to the whole “snowflake generation” thing because my managers are using titles a bit like participation trophies – and I don’t mean that in the slightest negative way, I’m just reporting what I see.

    Also, I’m ironically a bit undertitled but now don’t want to ask to fix it because of this. If I ask for a higher title, I’m going to get a medium one, because now my boss is finally concerned about the title inflation going on. And then it will appear that my boss thinks less of me than of the ones with inflated titles. If I don’t get a new title, everyone just knows my title is deflated, but it hurts me in my next job hunt.

    1. Kathenus*

      No advice but I get it. Right now my organization seems to be handing out titles like candy – it’s like a weird Oprah episode – ‘YOU’RE a director, and YOU’RE a director, and YOU’RE a director!’

      I don’t begrudge those folks their titles, but I’m worried that the line employee perception (and maybe partial reality) is that we are getting more and more top-heavy, as the additions/changes seem to be disproportionately at the mid to upper management level at the moment.

    2. WellRed*

      We have a tiny company with several people who have retitled themselves as directors. They have no one reporting to them.

    3. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      My perspective is, every organization handles titles differently (which you’ve obviously experienced), so it doesn’t bother me. Given that, I don’t think about other people’s titles, especially if they are external to my organization. It seems unlikely (though perhaps not impossible?) that your title would impact your job search, as potential employers should be looking at your accomplishments.

      Now, this changes a bit in jobs with specific and generally accepted steps (e.g. accounting, engineering, academic professors), but that doesn’t sound like it applies to your field. At least, as far as I know, there isn’t a generally accepted progression from say, “analyst” to “director.”

      Finally, “manager” and “director” can mean managing or directing a program’s outputs, not people. We have a department of one, so the director of that department directs the organization’s perspective on that work, not people.

    4. Dr. Anonymousr*

      Maybe you could meet with your manager and present your job responsibilities and show that it’s consistent with that title in your industry and if your boss gives you crap about title inflation just go back to the description and your research and ask innocently how that applies to your position. Pretend other people’s inflated titles are not relevant to yours…because they aren’t.

  90. Zombie Unicorn*

    Have you ever had a colleague who has one main thing they focus on that’s their main priority and they don’t quite grasp that it’s not everyone’s main priority? What, if anything, got through to them? Did anything make things worse?

    My manager is on the case (pushing back, managing expectations and escalating things up the chain) so not looking for advice so much as stories and solidarity. It’s not that we don’t understand what they need from us and why. They just want to take up lots and lots of everyone’s time, do things in more time-consuming ways and have endless meetings about things nobody else needs to be involved in, and don’t seem to get that people have other priorities and commitments.

    I have been supporting their area for years and they’ve now made it a source of stress for me so I would love to swap stories and commiserate…

    1. Zona the Great*

      Yep. I have this with someone who is not my peer, who is not in my organization, but whose work I oversee as the grant administrator for her work. She calls to ask a question and it needs to be answered NOW but only because she is often nervous and anxious to get answers.

      She thinks nothing of calling me just to talk out her own anxieties. She calls to ask what someone else meant in an email. She calls repeatedly without leaving messages. She calls my boss repeatedly if I don’t answer. She will spin a 15 minute hypothetical just to ask the world’s simplest yes/no question. Her emails are jam-packed with useless supporting details that no one reads any of her messages.

      I have taken to saying, “I understand this is your priority but it is not mine” or “While you may have time in your day to talk things out on the phone, I never will”. When she sends insanely long and over-worded emails I say, “can you please highlight where you are asking a question? I don’t have time to read through all of this”.

      Good luck. These people tend not to understand our boundaries.

    2. NicoleK*

      My BEC coworker thinks her job is the most important job in the world. And everyone should drop what they’re doing to help her, when she needs it. She will literally send 3-4 emails to “check in” because she feels that they’ll feel for her and complete it whatever request faster. And no, nothing gets through to her. She doesn’t care about your tasks, your priorities. She’s all about her.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        She sounds frustrating!

        It strikes me that my person has been really foolish because she’s used up all her capital way and not used it well. She asked for multiple moons on sticks so now my team are really focused on setting firm boundaries and not opening the door to more ridiculous requests. Whereas if she had gone in more thoughtfully she probably could have negotiated for a few of the things she wanted. But she repeatedly tried to demand all the things and now my manager is just focused on shutting that down.

    3. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I have two of these: one at my paid job and one at the place I volunteer regularly. It’s exhausting.

      The one at Real Work will bring up their specific area of responsibility and any new details they’ve learned related to it to “share with the group” at every possible meeting where it is either possibly relevant or there seems to be a few minutes “free” to do so (or even if neither of those things is true unless someone else specifically shuts them down). She’s walked over to me to interrupt a 1-on-1 appointment I was having because she didn’t want to wait 10 minutes for me to finish that first, and refused to leave until I dealt with her thing (which was not something where 10 minutes would have mattered in a big picture sense). She comes up with various forms the rest of us are supposed to fill out to “gather data” for her. (When we actually ask her for support related to Her Area, she will, however, be full of reasons why she doesn’t actually have to do the thing we’ve asked her to and it’s not required – never mind whether it’s still allowed even if not required, or would be a useful thing for someone to do. Very rigid about what her job is and is not.)

      The volunteer org person mostly overspends people points that aren’t hers. You give her a limit, and she’ll push hard at it, and work around it, and try to find wiggle room, and run everyone ragged trying to do too much. None of her ideas are terrible, but she doesn’t think about the limited capacity of the rest of the volunteers to carry them out, or that there is a limit to who you should ask to do what for you when.

      I get really worn out dealing with this personality type because it always feels like they’re taking too much of the group’s resources without thinking of the needs of other people in the group. In both cases they see themselves as helping other people (both real job and volunteer work involve helping people), but they don’t see “staff” as a group of people whose time and needs also need to be respected.

  91. Jane Smith*

    I don’t know if anyone will see this, but can you give me a script to let my boss know that one of my co-workers is slacking and it’s reflecting badly on all of us in the team?

    My boss has a tendency to treat everyone the same, so if there are one or two people not doing something right she will send out a whole team email, saying it’s on ALL of us to do x,y,z – conveniently ignoring the people who actually do do x,y,z correctly.

    We are meant to contact the new lampshade sequin suppliers within 5 days. I went to a meeting a couple of days ago to feed back to some external stakeholders, and noticed from the records that no initial contact had been made with Bob’s contacts, in some cases for weeks. I had to feed that back (without naming the person responsible) and felt that it reflected badly on the whole team.

    I don’t like Bob. He’s sexist, and he is a mansplainer, and I think that he is lazy. My boss adores him. I do not want to sound like I am bitching about him, and I don’t want to make it sound like a personal vendetta.
    Any suggestions?

    1. Mazzy*

      Maybe you can reply every time you get an email like this and say that you’ve never once made this error and so you don’t need he reminder, and ask why the reminder about something only one person does was sent?

      1. valentine*

        Mazzy, your script is super hostile and like daring the boss to fire you on the spot.

        Jane Smith, this is Thermonuclear War: “The only way to win is not to play the game.” Even if boss didn’t adore someone who doesn’t do his job, they don’t want to manage and are happy to have the safety of your low morale instead of whatever they fear from the Bobs. Accept it, transfer, or leave.

        1. Mazzy*

          Super hostile! Someone sends me an email and says “stop releasing alligators into the sewer.” I’m going to respond “I don’t release them. What is this in reference to.”

          How is that hostile

          1. Mellow*

            “I don’t release them. What is this in reference to.”

            I like this. I refuse to accept responsibility for slackers.

            And that’s not being hostile. It’s drawing necessary boundaries that I wouldn’t have to if managers actually managed in the first place.

        2. Jane Smith*

          I definitely think you’re right about not playing the game – for my own sanity if nothing else. I’m at the stage where I have to accept it right now because moving to another employer in the next couple of years at least is not doable for various reasons.

    2. Alianora*

      Depends on how open your boss is to feedback, but if it were me I’d try saying, “I feel awkward bringing this up, but I’ve noticed that Bob hasn’t been contacting the new suppliers. It’s causing x problem.”

      She’ll probably send out an email to everyone, but then if you notice the problem persisting you can bring it up again and say, “I noticed this is still happening with Bob. It’s still causing x problem.”

      Unfortunately, I don’t think you’re in a position to tell your boss that she needs to address it directly with Bob.

  92. rageismycaffeine*

    Our terrorizing department head “resigned effective immediately” on Monday. The euphoria and relief in the department is palpable, and just got that much better when the associate department head was announced as the interim. This is a weight off of me that’s been crushing me for the 18 months I’ve been here – I almost quit within the first six months before resigning myself to my fate – and I can’t put into words how incredibly excited I am for this new chapter.

    I had a dream that this person was fired. Within two weeks it happened. The universe is good. Have hope, all of you with terrible bosses – we’d just about run out of optimism that the situation would ever be fixed, and now here we are.

    1. new kid*

      I got word of the same thing happening at my old job this week and even though I’m not there anymore I’m SO happy for my old coworkers who stuck it out. Congrats!!

      1. Windchime*

        Same here. It’s been a couple of years now, but I felt such relief when the pack of bullying managers from my old job got fired. It was like I could finally let it go; could finally stop analyzing and trying to figure out what had happened while I was there.

  93. SophieChotek*

    I had a phone interview on Wednesday (initial screening – it was more than just “are we on the same page on salary” but didn’t go much in depth beyond what I’d already said on my resume/their description of the job was essentially what was posted on the job description) for a position with a non-profit. The position would be working on gifts/individual donors/getting new donors/marketing to donors. I have no idea if I will get an in-person interview (the next step), but I want to start thinking about/practising for an interview now (at least in a general way).

    For those of you how who work in this area:
    What sort of questions might you ask in an in-person interview?
    If you had any sort of “skills test,” what might that look like?

    (Either way, I am glad I got the first interview and am telling myself, it’s all good practice and experience, even if I don’t get a 2nd.)

    Thanks!

    1. irene adler*

      Brush up on all the “tell me about a time when…” questions. Like when you disagreed with your boss, or had to solve a problem, or meet a tight deadline, or deal with a difficult co-worker/client, make a quick decision.
      Be ready to answer “tell me about [skill X read directly from your resume].” NOTE: sometimes it can help to ‘pong’ this back into their court: “Sure! What would you like to know?” To get them to clarify what they are really asking about. Otherwise you’ll start telling them things that might not be what they are interested in.

    2. Bex*

      I would expect a lot of questions focused on experience with fundraising and donors. “tell us about a time you brought a new donor to the organization.” “What’s the gift you’re the most proud of?” “Tell us about a time a donor said no, and what you learned.”

      I would also recommend pulling their audited financials for the last 3-4 years and digging into the footnotes to understand their financial stability, growth pattern, donor breakdown, etc. And, it’s always a good thing to know if they have strong (or even decent) recent fundraising results, or do they need new donors because all the old ones left.

      1. SophieChotek*

        Thank you! – interesting about auditied financials – I’ve read 10-K SEC filings for publically traded companies for my current job – don’t know why I didn’t think of this, so thanks! I’ll definitely see if I can find any audited financials.

  94. EnergeticallyChallenged*

    It’s not really a question because the answer is “it’s not going to change, can I live with it”. But I’m having an issue with my boss’s beliefs about the universe and health and various metaphysical what-what which they tend to use to give me advice and manage me. Examples include: “you wouldn’t have gotten sick if you’d paid more attention to your karma”, “old people die, its age appropriate, you shouldn’t be sad about it”, “you dont need sick leave because you like to work. Energetically, that’s what you should be doing instead of staying home as per your doctors advice”

    I can laugh it off when they’re giving me unsolicited advice on my life choices (“reason why you needed that surgery is cos you don’t have a man and its unbalancing you cos a woman is the moon and a man is the sun and so on”); it’s when it veers off into using those beliefs to justify their people management that it makes me see red.

    It’s not gonna change. But it’s wrong and annoying and for less experienced staff who look up to them, it can be really demoralizing and confusing.

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      I’m a cancer survivor. I started going to sessions at a meditation center nearby. One of the facilitators/owners talked about how it was necessary to clear negative energy because it’s the cause of illness.

      Needless to say I felt a *lot* of negative energy right then.

      I can’t even imagine having a supervisor pulling that kind of crap. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

      1. valentine*

        cos you don’t have a man and its unbalancing you
        This revolting bit isn’t something you can report? What if you stop giving him details?

        He’s insufferable and would lead me to an early urn.

        1. EnergeticallyChallenged*

          It’s a she. Which makes it all the more laughable. And she’s the company owner, so nobody to report to.
          Not giving details: I try. But we’re a very small team who’ve worked together for years. The rest of us know a lot about each other and somehow manage to not be gross or stupid about things. It’s just this one… i am used to it now and can ignore or raise eyebrows silently as necessary. Am very good at extended silences after stupid comments. It’s just tiring.

          1. Moray*

            Someone once told me translate a certain person’s voice into the Peanut’s teacher’s “wah-wah-wah” when she started spewing lunacy. I was skeptical, but it really did kinda work.

            It’s not like I can completely tune her out when starts being judgemental about people’s diets and auras, but I can remember that what she’s saying is exactly as important to me as imaginary trombone.

          2. Lilith*

            “I love your sense of humor. It’s so _____(refreshing, delightful – whatever word – repeat as necessary).” Smile, go back to work.

    3. lawschoolmorelikeblawschool*

      My (young, healthy) sister in law thinks positive thinking and essential oils can cure autoimmune diseases. Luckily I rarely have to hear about it. Point is, yuck this sucks and I’m sorry.

    4. Mellow*

      “old people die, its age appropriate, you shouldn’t be sad about it”

      ———————————

      Wha–? Insensitive to the point of being creepy.

      It’s all creepy, actually.

    5. Lime Forever*

      I’m someone who is into all the metaphysical woo-woo stuff and the way your boss is using it is inappropriate.

      Personally, I would have one conversation about, “Hey [boss name], I’ve realized that it’s not good for my energy when certain topics come up so from now on, I would appreciate it if you don’t mention things like [specific example A] or [specific example B]! Thank you for respecting my need to protect my energy!”

      Then whenever something comes up again that you don’t want to talk about/is inappropriate, I would reference that conversation. “Oh! Remember how this isn’t good for my energy to talk about this? Tell me about the [work related thing] instead!”

      Keep it friendly and use their language back to them aka “good for my energy” and “protect my energy”.

      Your boss will not change but you can (hopefully!) adjust how these conversations go! Good luck!

      1. Lime Forever*

        The other variation is the karma thing.

        Boss: “Don’t be sad about people dying” or “you should work instead of follow your doctor’s instructions!”

        You: “I think this is part of my karma so I’m going to follow it! Thanks!”

        Or “I’m working out my karma right now but if I need any suggestions, I’ll let you know!”

        Basically you can swap in “karma” for any variation of “I’m my own independent adult person and I don’t need your advice about my life choices.” But instead of “this is not your business: back the eff off!” it’s “This is my karma and I’m figuring it out!”

        Of course, you absolutely don’t need to use woo-woo language to set boundaries if you don’t want to! It sounds like it’s not your flavor. But if you do want to, claiming your “energy” and “karma” might work.

  95. EmmaTheFirst*

    So it’s annual review season at my org and my boss (who is awful in a myriad of strange and unexpected ways- I’ve never met anyone with her particular brand of Bad before) is two weeks late per HR’s schedule on getting our appraisals back to us and I’m so nervous. She nominated me for an in-office award but also yelled at me last week so??? Who knows???? I know that I shouldn’t care from a personal standpoint about what she says because she’s a terrible manager and person, but I still do. I’d love suggestions on how to not be so stressed!

    1. Introvert girl*

      In January, when we had our evaluations, I was the only one out of over 150 who was overlooked by my supervisor. He forgot about me. When we received surveys from HR about what we thought about the process, I e-mailed them back saying I’m unable to fill them in as I didn’t have an evaluation. I don’t know what they told him, but I got my evaluation and since then my supervisor has been really really nice to me.
      I would just wait it out. Don’t let her have too much power (emotionally) over you. If you don’t hear anything back in two weeks, just ask HR if there is a specific reason your boss hasn’t gotten back to you in over a month.
      PS: Going to the sauna or a massage helps me when I’m stressed ;)

  96. hermit crab*

    Happy Friday! Is anyone else at work in a nearly-empty office due to Mid-August DC Ghost Town syndrome? :)

    I am doing some work that requires remoting into another computer, and said computer is set to UTC (four hours ahead of me here in EDT) and for whatever reason the time/date settings are locked. So I keep seeing, like, 3:45 out of the corner of my eye when it’s actually only 11:45 and getting super confused.

    1. DC*

      Hi, yes, me! There were 3 of us here yesterday, and today it’s silent. Offices in DC in August are a bit creepy.

    2. Sharkie*

      That was my favorite part about working in DC! My parents are still there and my dad wore a “fun shirt” (Hawaiian button down) to his firm today since he is the only one in

    3. Ali G*

      Me too! And my commute was like 1/2 as long this morning. Out empty office is also compounded by the fact that a lot of folks WFH on Fridays on the regular too. I think there is like maybe 10 people out of 30 here today.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      My partner started his government job in late June, he’s still getting the hang of things, and… there is no one there. He’s not used to office life anyway, so it’s a bit weird for him right now.

    5. OtterB*

      Yep! Although Fridays here are often quiet regardless of the season; there’s a lot of wfh anyway.

      I am deeply enjoying lighter traffic on the drive to work, too.

      1. Kat in VA*

        I told my husband if my commute was like this every day, I could leave the house at 07:15AM and still get to work by 08:00AM (instead of leaving at 06:45AM).

        The drive home, however, remains horrendous. :(

  97. negotiations*

    This seems like a silly question, but I am new to the work force…

    When they call you to extend the offer, do you negotiate then? Or do you take in all the information, call back a different time, and try to negotiate then? Do you usually have to verbally accept and then negotiate?

    1. Catsaber*

      I would thank them for the offer, ask to look it over first and get back to them in a day or two to negotiate. Don’t try to negotiate right then and there, take some time to review everything. You do not have to verbally accept.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I don’t know what the official protocol is, but I usually negotiate during the offer call.

      It’s typically gone like this for me:

      1. They email me to say they’d like to schedule a call.
      2. On the call, they make an offer.
      3. On the call, I sound excited about the offer but don’t officially accept it. I ask if the salary can go up to whatever-it-is.
      4. On the call, they usually say they need to check to see if that’s possible (or just flat-out say it’s not possible without even checking).
      5. If they have to check, they check later.
      6. Then they send the written offer.

    3. Natalie*

      Definitely don’t accept the offer and then negotiate. You accept an offer *after* it’s been finalized to your liking, it happens at the end of negotiations.

    4. sacados*

      Personally I would ask for time — assuming the offer encompasses a lot of details other than salary, like PTO/sick time, insurance details, 401(k) matching etc etc.
      In a case like that it’s better to take some time to look over all the details and make sure you understand the whole package.
      And when you get back to them, I think it’s fine to either tell them you’ll call back in X days or also just reply via email.

    5. LadyByTheLake*

      Always thank them for the offer and tell them that you will need some time to consider. Ask about benefits, time off, etc. Ask if they can supply the offer, particularly showing the benefits, in writing — they might not always. Then THINK ABOUT IT. Do your research, look at the benefits, including PTO. Think about what you want in terms of salary and other options and what you would be willing to swap for what. Don’t take a huge amount of time, no more than a day or so, THEN call back.

    6. LadyByTheLake*

      Also, you can’t negotiate after you accepted the offer. You accepted the offer as is. It’s done. You have to negotiate BEFORE you accept the offer. Now maybe you do it on the same call — that isn’t customary and I would find it off-putting if someone did that when I was extending them an offer because it would show me that they aren’t seriously considering what the whole offer is and they are just negotiating for the sake of negotiating. But no matter what, you can’t accept and then negotiate.

  98. Not an Engineer*

    For several reasons related to toxic workplace behaviour, I have decided I need to leave and am actively looking for work. But here’s the problem:

    I’m a total overachieving high-performer and identified as such at my current work place. Due to this, I was given a chance to become a project manager in a field where non-engineers never become PMs. Now, I’m a Senior PM, still not an engineer and every job ad for something I would love to do requires an engineering degree.

    I feel completely qualified for the position as described, but the list of qualifications makes me feel like I’m an entry level person who’s never worked before. As I’m looking for fairly senior type roles, I’m feeling really stuck.

    How can I find a good fit for my skillset when I’d likely never make it to an interview? I’ve tried addressing this in my AAM type cover letter, but at the end of the day, they’d rather have an engineer. Help me! I need to move on from my toxic company before I get anymore deflated!

    1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

      A few thoughts and questions:

      1) Are you applying to the jobs that you have at least half of the qualifications (excluding the engineering degree)? I can’t quite tell, but you probably should be. Caveat is, if they say, “Professional Engineer (PE) required”, you’re chances are probably zero (not an engineer, so I’m just passing on what I’ve heard).

      2) You really can’t tell if you’re actually qualified or not from the outside. Even well-written job descriptions may read differently to you versus the hiring team. Also, if the qualifications on the job posting don’t match what you bring to the table, it’s possible the match is not as strong as you think.

      Similarly, you can’t know that the lack of an engineering degree was what made previous employers pass on your application. My sympathies, I’ve applied to almost 60 jobs in the past several months (custom cover letter and resume). Job searching sucks. Power through and utilize self-care!

      3) Are you a project manager or a Project Manager (i.e. do you have PM certifications?). That will also affect what jobs will consider you and what jobs you should consider. I’m not in the PM space, but it seems like if you want to do Project Management (uppercase), a PM certification may help. If you want to do project management (lowercase), there are lots of jobs where you probably have transferable skills. Would you be open to leaving engineering for an adjacent field?

      1. Not an Engineer*

        Thanks for your thoughts.

        1+2) Yes, I’m absolutely applying for jobs where I don’t meet all of the criteria. I’m mostly missing the PEng though, at most one other. I haven’t applied to 100s of jobs (yet), but even at my own company they’d never hire a non engineer from the outside for my job. And they know me! You’re right, I can’t really know whether it’s the only reason I’m not getting interviews. I’m definitely putting in a lot of effort to customize every letter and sometimes even the resume.

        3) I do have a PMP. Full disclosure, I feel like it’s not worth it and doesn’t prove much, at least that’s my experience in my industry. I’m absolutely open to leaving the industry, in fact, I’d prefer it. Now comes a whole other slew of things I have zero experience in (like IT/software. I come from civil). Of course, I am a fast learner and can prove it, since at some stage I knew absolutely nothing about my current industry and now am considered an expert.

        Oh how I wish I had better connections. I’m such an introvert that networking hasn’t come easy and I’ve really relied on merit. My work is always noticed but it can only take you so far in a toxic workplace.

        Best of luck in your search as well!

  99. Environmental Compliance*

    I forgot to ask in my original comment: environmental compliance/regulatory peeps out there, do you have any professional certifications? I’m looking at asking work to pay for one, and was wondering if anyone had an insight on what ones seem to be helpful vs. not helpful career-wise.

    There’s the REM, CECM, etc, etc.

  100. SophieChotek*

    Government Jobs
    A post above (congrats to Second Chance for getting the job!), reminded me of my other question.
    A friend and I are both job searching and she mentioned written tests for a gov job (but didn’t get hired.)
    Are test for gov jobs only after you apply?
    Or are there tests to take before you apply/sort of as your application?
    If there are tests you take before you apply, how do you find out where to take them?
    Many years a friend told me to take a civil service exam (I’m in the U.S. by the way), but I’m not sure that’s a “thing” anymore…

    1. LCL*

      There are as many answers as there are government agencies that hire from the outside. Where I work, there are tests for applicants for the positions that require the least experience. I hesitate to call them entry level because they usually require some experience, but yeah, you receive notice of the test and it’s on their schedule and you aren’t paid for your time. Google is really your friend on this, virtually all government agencies put this information on line.

    2. Policy Wonk*

      There is no general civil service exam anymore. But there are many hiring programs and they have different requirements. There are tests associated with certain competitive programs (e.g., Presidential Management Fellows, Foreign Service). Recommend you surf USAJobs. Your Congressman or Senator’s office can also be a good source of information about federal employment. Good luck!

    3. Dr. Anonymousr*

      Plus there may be state civil service exams that may or may not be job specific. At one point, Wisconsin made some of their “exams” sort of skills checklists, which made them less than useful when I was trying to hire computer techs. My point is, check into state and local government hiring practices, as well.

  101. LizB*

    Anxiety level has been medium this week. I managed to get some things done, I didn’t manage to finish others. I have an interview on Monday for an internal job that would be a step “down” but that I would be thrilled to take. At this point, I would take a HEFTY pay cut for some semblance of work-life balance, and this will hopefully only be a moderate pay cut.

    The main source of my anxiety right now is the labor market is super tight at the moment and I have staff hours I desperately need to fill starting in a couple of weeks, and nobody applying for my positions. It’s going to be an interesting September if I can’t hire at least one more shift lead.

    1. LizB*

      OH ALSO, I almost forgot about this, I saw a customer survey that was like “I’m so sad all the best people have left the Llama department, I know there was some messiness with a particular manager but seriously the people who left were so good!” Friends, I am that manager of the Llama department and that customer can go fuck their whole own self. All the people they named are still within the company but have gotten promotions (because yes, they’re very good!), which has screwed my schedule all to hell, and if that person wants to try their hand at this waking nightmare of a job, my position’s gonna be posted sooner or later, they can be my fucking guest.

  102. Dzhymm*

    Thoughts on reconnecting with ex-colleagues across a difficult separation?

    I was let go from my job back in April; it was a “You’re done here, clean out your desk and we’ll walk you to the door” kind of termination. Officially it was “termination without cause”, but I’m pretty sure it was a combination of performance and insubordination that sealed the deal (I was on an informal PIP, and the way my boss was handling it got me to the point where I just couldn’t work for them anymore).

    Thing is, I met some pretty nice people there and I’d like to reconnect, but I’m not sure how they feel about me. Would they welcome the contact, or am I dead to them? Thoughts on how to figure this out?

    1. fposte*

      Do a single low-key reachout–FB would be a good way–and let it go if there’s no answer. Keep in mind that people generally don’t stay in touch even when people leave on good terms, so I wouldn’t take it personally if you didn’t get a response.

  103. Embarcadero*

    Managers and GoFundMe’s Q!

    A manager’s spouse created a GoFundMe for manger who needs something medical, not covered by our really great insurance. Manager tweeted the GFM and has raised $100 of the $10,000 needed over 3-4 months :(

    I saw a former coworker of ours donate as well as a few of manager’s friends. There are about 100 of us in our division and I know we could really help. I’m debating if I should just donate to the GFM or donate and say something to coworkers. Thoughts?

    1. Mediamaven*

      If you feel generous enough to donate, you should! But I don’t think the workplace should feel pressured. A lot of people can’t stand GoFundMes for lots of valid reasons. And things can get super weird for subordinates donating to a supervisor. But your caring is thoughtful!

    2. Bear Shark*

      Just donate if you want to. It’s not appropriate to push coworkers to donate. You don’t know other people’s finances.

      1. Embarcadero*

        Agreed, part 2.

        I meant that I wasn’t sure if I should mention to anyone that the GFM exists at all (and hey can choose to do whatever with that info), not that people should donate :) That’d be very annoying.

        1. valentine*

          I don’t see how you can tell them without pressure when the point is for them to donate, especially when: I know we could really help.

          I was thinking everyone knew about it and didn’t want to give. I wouldn’t want to know because I’d expect to be judged and found wanting for not giving.

    3. MatKnifeNinja*

      Just donate. Leave a flyer on a office bulletin board.

      The biggest nastiness in the my work place was a GFM account to support fertility treatments.

      My behind is broke, so I didn’t donate. The fall out came from people whose religion does not support fertility treatments AT ALL, and said so to the spouse’s face.

      Depending on what it is that needs done, don’t assume everyone will be on board. That’s where the awkward comes in.

      Also, having GFM money sometimes counts against against any available financial aid that can be offered. Found this out during my uncle’s cancer treatment. Hopefully this person knows this.

    4. Zombie Unicorn*

      Really, you don’t “know that we could really help”. You only know if you could.

    5. Clementine*

      He’s a manager. Is a $10K bill something that lower-paid employees should pay for? I suspect he’s making $10K more a year than they are.

  104. Eponymous*

    After over a year of vague planning and a two weeks of emails, phone calls, and meetings, I have officially registered for two courses at my university and have permission from my supervisor and department head to reduce my work hours. Classes start in less than three weeks. I’m part excited and part terrified, and there are so many things I need to figure out in the next two weeks.

    1. Havarti*

      Good luck! After 15 years, I’m going back to school in less than 3 weeks myself. I’m mostly just terrified lol! I hope I can balance work and school.

      1. Eponymous*

        Good luck to you, too! I’ve been out of school for 7 years, and one of my two classes is sophomore-level (the first in a chain of prerequisites I need for a new master’s program). The work-school-life balance is going to be tricky. At first my supervisor thought I’d “make up” the times I’m in class and still work 40 hours a week. Absolutely not! 75% work + 38% school = 113% and I can’t cut back on life things like cooking, cleaning, and spending time with my friends and family.

        The list of things I need to do to get everything arranged is getting preposterous. I’m going to be working from home two days a week, but I don’t own a desk. Once I have a desk I need to get a docking station for my work laptop plus extra monitors to match my cube’s set-up. And then special paper for class, notebooks, pens and pencils… I have a graphing calculator somewhere that will need new batteries. I have to tell all of the project managers at work that I’m going back to school and that I’m unavailable on certain days or at certain times and hope they remember. I’ve blocked off my class times and my work-from-home times in my Outlook calendar but I’ll have to figure out how to list me as “mostly available except not really” on our staff scheduling calendar (a.k.a. shared spreadsheet). And once that’s all settled I’ll get the tuition bill!

        1. Havarti*

          Thank you! My classes are online but given how much technology has changed since then (I had dial-up! Facebook was in its infancy!) I have no idea how it’s going to all work. I mean, people have explained it to me but it’s another thing to do it, you know?

          1. Eponymous*

            Online classes sound nice, but I know that having the structure and schedule of actual in-person class will work much better for me. Plus I live right next to campus and class isn’t until 9, so I’ll practically be sleeping in compared to my current schedule!

      2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        You can both do it! *waves pompoms of pixie dust*

        Biggest tip from someone who’s been doing work and school simultaneously for 10+ years and almost four degrees: Find a calendaring/to-do-list system that you’ll stick with and glue it to your forehead.

        (Second biggest tip: Calendar yourself a weekly downtime and stick to it as much as you can. Trivia night on Tuesdays, or the coffee shop with a non-educational book on Saturday mornings, or whatever. Some You Time.)

        1. Eponymous*

          I have a paper planner/calendar/agenda that I used religiously in college and grad school and have continued to buy since then but haven’t used as thoroughly, so that will be coming back. I have my classes and work schedule mapped out in my digital calendars (personal, school, and work).

          The classwork organizing program that I used way back when has been discontinued and replaced with a website so I’ll have to pick which I prefer and get that set up.

          I’m hoping my downtime doesn’t have to change too much. I have one social event per week that I shouldn’t need to break. I think the biggest change to my personal schedule will be spending part of Saturday doing homework and/or officework. But I’ve decided that Saturday 6pm through Sunday 6pm or is the “no work no school” time. I’ll go batty if I don’t keep one solid block like that free. The only days off this term are Thanksgiving and the following Friday, so all of my long-weekend camping plans are out the window and I’ll need the dedicated “me time”.

        2. Havarti*

          Thank you! I’m trying to use my phone calendar more often since I can have it scream reminders at me.

          1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

            If you’re an iPhone user, the next big iOS update is going to include some major updates to the Reminders app too.

  105. Amethyst*

    For anyone still following the complaining coworker from the last couple weeks:

    Things came to a head Tuesday. My desk creaks due to the lack of support on one end (freestanding, attached to a half cubicle wall) & none of us thought anything of it until that day when I was flying through a stupid easy project &, I guess, creaked 9275934734 times in five minutes. Next thing I know, Cubicle Mate has her chair right next to me, causing me to freeze & do an internal WTF?, looks under my desk, tests the thing, mutters & gestures about the missing support, & finally scoots back over to her side. Then she had the nerve to suggest that “Maybe you should ask to move back to your old cubicle.” No. The coworker who has it now has already said she’s not switching again, & there’s nothing I can do about the creaking/squeaking/whatever odd noises my desk makes.

    She huffed & threw her own earbuds in for the duration of the day. I emailed Supervisor & Boss about it just in case CM complained to them. Supervisor forwarded my email to our head bosses, one of whom threw himself back in his chair in aggravation & said, “Why don’t we move CM over here? Jesus Christ.” (There is a huge empty cubicle next to this boss’s office that no one uses, & she’d be shielded from all the noises she’s been bitching about for MONTHS since she’d be essentially isolated from the rest of the building.)

    Wednesday I got called into Boss’s office, where we & Supervisor had a discussion on what to do. Other Coworker* offered to switch desks with me. I accepted. At some point next week, we’ll do the move & hopefully CM will shut up about it.

    *Other Coworker absolutely LOVES me, per Boss, & she is someone who makes no bones about it. She literally has no filter; whatever’s on her mind when she sees you, she says. Half the building is legitimately scared of her, & the other half love her. Boss also reminded me that OC is the best way to have revenge on CM. I don’t care about revenge…but neither am I gonna tell OC to leave CM alone–mainly because the woman does as she pleases, damn the man.

    CM has been spoken to on her behavior as it’s not work appropriate.

    1. Amethyst*

      For the record, while 100% irritating, I’ve been mostly amused throughout the last few weeks. It’s SUCH a deliciously petty thing! LOL.

        1. Amethyst*

          I didn’t take it because it was a secondhand story, & it wasn’t offered to me. That big cubicle is filled with assorted odds & ends, & I also suspect they’re saving that for CM if she kicks off about something else. E.g., “You can either move to this spot or you can stay in your current spot & stop complaining” type of deal.

      1. Amethyst*

        Yup. OC works from home most of the time. She comes in once/week for about 2 hours, then goes back home.

        How they think this switch is going to solve things without first adding a leg to the end of the desk missing one, I don’t know. This is above my paygrade, lol.

  106. RussianInTexas*

    The ‘I can’t stop stare at the cleavage” letter reminded me of the receptionist my old job used to have, about 18 years go. Her name was Esmeralda, she was pretty young (as was I, sigh). For a while, she was coming to work in more and more work-inappropriate attire, which culminated one day in the following outfit:
    leather pants, high heels, completely sheer black shirt, and nipple pasties.
    After she was asked to leave her desk and change, her only response was “but my husband thinks I look good in this!”

    1. rageismycaffeine*

      NO NO NO NO NO NO. OH MY GOD.

      What industry was this office in??? I’m picturing this as a financial or law firm and giggling hysterically.

      1. RussianInTexas*

        Almost as bad, oil. Lost of old white guys.
        This was afterwards known as The Day When Esmeralda Wore Pasties.

      2. RussianInTexas*

        Also, after she was laid off (was an era of restructuring, her..erm…outfits didn’t have anything to do with it), a lot of rather steamy emails between her and her husband were found on her computer. She used work e-mail address for it too. To be fair, that was early 2000s and people were not as aware to not use work e-mails for personal stuff.

        1. AvonLady Barksdale*

          Heh– my first thought was that I’m glad it was her husband and not some random dude or, worse, a co-workers!

  107. Blueberry Smoothie*

    Longtime reader, longtime lurker.

    I recently left a toxic job after way too long. It got bad enough that I left without anything lined up (I know, I know). I’ve been in the interview process for a job I *really* want. I had another round of in-person interviews and shadowed a current employee yesterday. I’m supposed to hear something today.

    I’m going to hang out here today while I anxiously wait. I hate the waiting!

    There’s another position that I’ve been working with a staffing agency about, and I’ve got serious concerns about the staffing agency. But that’s another comment. :)

  108. Lucky*

    My company has a tradition around this time every year, where each department goes out for the day for a fun activity. Some departments go see a baseball game, some do a drink-and-paint thing, some have done escape rooms. All things planned well in advance to accommodate groups from 15-40 people. Our head of HR is really big on engagement, so I know that she’s been reminding the other executives to make sure they plan something.

    My boss hasn’t planned anything. The only way we’re reminded that this happens every year around this time is that whole areas of the office are empty and there’s a complete lack of cross-functional meetings scheduled. It’s definitely a symptom of the larger problem that my boss is terrible at all of the regular people-managing things, even though that’s a large part of his job.

    1. Colette*

      Can you offer to plan something for your team? “Hey, I know the company usually likes departments to do some team building event this time of year. I’ve got a couple of ideas of things that would work for our group – I’d be happy to plan it if you’d like.”

    2. Wishing You Well*

      This has been happening for several years and your boss isn’t scolded for nonparticipation? Interesting.

    3. Flyleaf*

      You might want to suggest a golf outing. There was an earlier AAM discussion, and golf seemed pretty popular.

  109. Fikly*

    My current job is 32 hours a week, though I get full time benefits (thank you job!). I’m looking to add some part time work on the side, which is in no way not kosher with my company.

    Thoughts on having my resume posted online in industry specific places with my name and current company listed on it? I don’t want them to think I’m trying to leave. I’ve said things to them recently that specifically indicate I’m happy with them, but I don’t want them to get the wrong impression.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Would you be interested in additional hours at your current job? If so and the hours aren’t available, there must be a way to make it clear on your resume that you’re adding to rather than moving from.

    2. Not All*

      If you know for sure your company is fine with you getting a second job, why just mention it to your manager as a heads up? eg “hey Boss, just in case you hear rumors, I decided to get a second part time job to pay off student loans faster/earn money for Christmas gifts/save for a vacation.”

      I don’t think any of my managers would have blinked at me saying that or assumed that meant I was leaving.

      1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

        Yep – when I was looking for a second job I actually talked to my boss up front, “Hey, I’m applying for a nights-and-weekends at Target, this would definitely be a second job, not a replacement. Would you willing to be a reference for such a thing?”

  110. Distracted*

    My coworker “John” passed away yesterday from cancer after 6 months of suffering. We (a nonprofit) are shutting down work for his funeral. He was so devoted to his work serving the community. It’s very hard. I’m distracted. I don’t want to switch to past tense. We are a little office and a family. A dysfunctional family with plenty of conflicts (he was not always the easiest person to work with, but so passionate). I don’t want to switch to past tense.

    Also it’s hard to figure out what to do with religion in the workplace because he was a devout member of his faith and but for some of our staff the religion would probably make it worse. For me, it would be better.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I’m so sorry. <3 It sounds like your organization is handling it really well, all things considered – I'm sure you're not the only one who is distracted these days.

    2. LLG612*

      Condolences to you and your colleagues and to your colleague’s family. It sounds like they’re doing everything right, considering. I think bringing faith into the workplace is iffy at best, so maybe you can think of more private ways to instill that into your grieving process?

    3. InternWrangler*

      We had a very beloved staff member pass away a few years ago after several months of illness. One thing that seemed to really help our staff was to leave his office door open with a memory board on his table. People could stop in and write a card to the family or a note. They could close the door and have some private time to grieve. It gave us a chance to create a pause before we all “moved on.” We also named one of our rooms after him. About six months after the funeral, we hosted an open house and “room-naming” for his family. It was so amazing. And we created a small award in his honor and his family help choose the recipient each year.
      I think it helps to give staff multiple avenues to honor him and all of the ones I’ve listed were done without a religious context.

  111. LLG612*

    Does anyone have a recommendation for a good low-cost app or program to keep track of billable hours as a consultant? There are so many options! I had typically done project-based billing but with my newest client it makes sense to bill hourly. Suggestions? I’d like to be able to categorize what I’m doing with my time (eg phone calls, research, travel, etc.).

    1. A Consultant*

      This is possibly is more than you would want to do / change, but… I use Zoho Books for my accounting, and it comes with a built in time-tracker function that allows you to designate both project and task. It also feeds that time directly into invoicing (if you want it to) and has the most flexibility that I’ve come across in terms of customizing invoices and formats for different projects. So, for the client on a fixed fee; it does that easily. For the client on an hourly basis, it can do that and I can decide if the invoice shows time in aggregate, by person, or by task, etc.

      It’s not as common in the US as Quickbooks, but I like it much better for what’s important in my daily small business needs.

    2. Alpaca Bag*

      I track mine in Excel with VBA code in the background. I have a projects tab with columns for the project abbreviation and name. Most of my work is on the Tasks tab. I click an Add Task button that I added, and type the project abbreviation, a space, and a description of what I’m about to start doing. Formulas calculate the amount of time spent on each line, and there are columns where other formulas calculate the time by day, week, and project. If you don’t do VBA code, then when you start a task you can use Ctrl (or Cmd on a Mac)-; to enter the date and Ctrl (or Cmd on a Mac)-Shift-; to enter the time, enter a project code in another column, and task description in another column. At the end of the day you can calculate daily sums. I’ve been tweaking my spreadsheet for about 20 years now!

    3. OtterB*

      I use Toggl just for my personal timekeeping, but it might suit your needs. It allows you to input a task associated with a project, and I think it lets you associate that with a client as well (but I’ve never used that part).

      1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

        I also use Toggl for my time sheet (two separate coworkers recommended it). It does allow you to setup clients and assign projects to them.

        The free version is pretty good and they have paid versions that may suit your needs.

    4. it happens*

      I have used the free app hourstracker. It’s not very fancy, but I can track hours by both client and activity and report to myself by client, activity or time period. And export to xl if I feel really ambitious. Not saying it’s as cool or full-featured as what others have recommended, but it works and it’s free.

    6. M*

      I use Clockify, which is free with some feature restrictions, and makes things all very automated-and-easy.

  112. Rebecca*

    I’ve been thinking a lot about some posts recently, especially the ones about compensation, people leaving and being replaced at much higher rates. And compensation in general, I guess, and the amount of notice given when we leave jobs. Some people give months of notice, others 2 weeks, which seems to be standard. I used to be in the give lots of notice group, as I have a lot of responsibilities, and so far my employer hasn’t been very successful in finding someone to back me up and help me. UNTIL. And this is where compensation comes in. Until I learned that a person specifically hired to help me and back me up, with zero experience, touted to be a great worker, excellent at everything, the bees knees, was anything but, exaggerated their skill level, caused all sorts of issues and finally quit after causing months of angst…and was paid $1.50 less per hour than me. I worked for over 15 years to get to my level of compensation, they hired someone off the street with zero experience and paid this person slightly less than me, and to boot, it was a bad hire that wasn’t addressed. Right or wrong, this leaves me with a very bad taste in my mouth. When I leave, and it’s when and not if, I’ll give the standard 2 week’s notice, and leave it at that.

    1. Agent J*

      This is why I can’t see myself staying at one company for more than a few years. As Alison mentioned in one of those posts, a lot of companies will pay a new person way more than the dedicated person who’s been doing the job for X years. And (this may be my jadedness coming out), they don’t care. They know they can find someone else to replace me for cheaper so why not go where the money is? I’m not completely motivated by salary and benefits (culture matters a ton) but as I progress in my career, I realize that a lot of companies care more about me going with the status quo than about the quality/hard work/passion I bring to the job.

      /rant

  113. Al*

    I’m interviewing for the first time in a few years and I have a few questions for the crowd!
    1) I work in the non profit field, specifically in a role that’s almost always paid for with general support funds. Given the news around the economy I’m wondering how or if I can ask questions about financial stability. I know no job is recession proof but I’d like to know if they have a plan for a recession.

    2) What excuses do you use to get interviewing time that made your boss the least suspicious?

    1. LLG612*

      Absolutely ask about financial stability! I’m the ED of a successful nonprofit and just hired three people on. All the successful hires asked about our financial stability as we are growing when it seems the economy might be doing some wonky stuff. If the company can’t answer, huge red flag. I really appreciated those who understood the workings of a nonprofit enough to ask if we had a plan for instability.

      As for interviewing, I have rarely had to make excuses because I’ve been in leadership positions where my actions/time aren’t closely monitored, but friends of mine use doctor’s appointments frequently or a “family issue”. If at all possible, take that whole day off, and, if you can’t, don’t wear your full interview outfit to the office!

      1. Moray*

        I think this must vary a lot. I’m also in the nonprofit field, and while it would be fine if someone asked about how the hiring manager envisioned the next 3-5 years of the position specifically, asking about the financial stability of our organization as a whole would not go over well.

        1. Analytical Tree Hugger*

          Interesting. I would consider that to be at least be a yellow flag, if not a red flag. I also work for a non-profit and consider transparency in the financials to be highly important and valuable for all staff.

    2. InternWrangler*

      You can probably learn some things about the financial stability from looking at the audits, 990s and information posted on guidestar. You can look at the history of profit/loss and the concentration of funding from any one funder. It can help you to formulate more specific questions rather than asking just about overall financial health.

      1. Al*

        I’ll do that, thank you! I have glanced at their 990s but mostly looking at the overall budgets. Profit/loss history is a really good starting point, thanks :)

    3. Auntie Social*

      If you can’t get the day off, then say you’re going to the dentist. Sometimes the appointments are short, like for a cleaning or small cavity, sometimes they go for hours.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Yes to the dentist excuse. Some “procedures” take more than one visit, etc.
        Best of Luck!

  114. niche job albatross*

    I finally seem to have some traction on a job search that is long overdue, and that’s good. I need to leave this job, and that means moving, as there’s no equivalent nearby. My wife can’t leave her job until it dries up, which is likely to be in the next 3-5 years, so she won’t be moving with me. We’ve decided that if I move more than 3 hrs away by car, I’ll take the cats, which means I’ll have the company and she’ll have one less house-caretaking chore. She’ll work on getting the house ready to sell, and put it on the market, and I’ll come back when I can to help with that and the eventual move of the rest of our stuff. Once it sells, she’ll move to where I am, and come back to work on projects for a week or so at a time. So the 2-3 yr picture works for us, and we can visualize it. But I worry about the day to day of being separated for that first 6-8 months, not knowing what we don’t know about what that will be like. I’d love to hear from anyone who’s had to separate from a spouse/significant other for a job relocation, and made it all work.

    1. Toodie*

      I can sort of relate. For background, my husband and I have been married for 32 years, and for most of those years, he worked rotating 12-hour shifts, so he was frequently working overnight, or working on weekends, or working on holidays. So in a way, we have had practice for where we are now.

      Five years ago I got a new job in a city that was two hours away from our home (in a pretty rural part of the country). I got a studio apartment in the new city, and figured that I would put in a year or so and then ask about telecommuting (because I have a job that is perfect for telecommuting). That period–when I was leaving our place on Sunday afternoons, working all week, and then driving back to our home after work on Fridays–was rough. I missed my husband, I missed my cat, and I realized that the new company I was working for was mostly folks that were much younger than me, so I didn’t make a ton of work friends. And, my weekends seemed impossibly short. It sucked.

      About the time I was keying up to ask to start telecommuting, the other person on my team (just two of us) announced that she was marrying and moving away, and could she telecommute full time? She got to do just that. I was devastated because I figured that option was not possible for me, too. But my boss was a champion, and got it approved so that I would telecommute on Mondays and Fridays from my home. For the next year or two, I’d telecommute on Monday, drive Monday night to the other city, work there through Thursday, drive home on Thursday nights, and telecommute on Fridays. That helped a lot but it also meant that I was basically giving up Monday and Thursday nights to driving, which also sucked.

      More time passed. I got another boss. Our company went through some changes, and now I’m the only person who does my particular job. By now I’ve been with the company for three years or so, and everyone is happy with my work. New boss says she doesn’t care how much telecommuting I do, and that I can even be reclassified as a remote employee.

      New wrinkle: my husband and I bought a small retirement place on the other side of the state, about six hours away. (He’s retired, but I’m not retired yet.) We found that he was taking a lot of trips to the retirement place to mow or shovel snow or whatever, and it was stressing him out quite a bit. (He had a heart problem earlier this year.) So for the time being, I’m staying and remote-working from the retirement place, and he’s at home where he keeps an eye on his mother, and takes care of that place and the cat. I do the mowing and stuff here so he doesn’t have to come this way as often as he used to. Starting this year, I’ve come out here for about a month or six weeks at a time, and he’ll come out once or twice in that period, and then I’ll go to the home place for a couple of weeks, pop in on the office, and then return to this place.

      I think my folks and his folks and our daughter all think we’re crazy for doing things this way, and maybe we are. But it works for us. I’d say it mostly works for us because we had all those years when we were living together at the home place but he was doing the shift work thing, and we just grew to be very comfortable with what I call very long leashes. If I had even the slightest trust issue, I don’t think this would work. We’re lucky that we don’t have any issues like that. It does make it really hard to have “couple friends,” because we’re not often in the same place at the same time. Oh well.

      I don’t know if this answers your question or helps you, but please know that this CAN work.

      1. niche job albatross*

        Wow. That really helps, actually. I think the honesty about where the pain points are is what I was looking for. If I take a job that’s close enough to drive/train home on the weekends, I worry I’ll resent losing so much time to transport and a shortened weekend. So we’ve talked about playing it by ear how often I come back home, depending on energy/time. See how I feel on Wednesday or Thursday, and also whether I can negotiate a 4-day week option for the weeks when I want to go hom. I also love what you said about the trust — we don’t have any of those issues, we’re very stable in our relationship and communicate well. I just worry a bit that we’ll be building separate lives, so we’ll have to work harder at keeping the end point in mind. Thanks!

    2. Reba*

      It will suck! But I think having the time limit on it makes it possible to work.

      Lots of videochats, just quietly hanging out “together,” were key for spouse and me.

      Think about what you can do in advance or along the way that will help mitigate the the ways you will be stretched by having two households — monetarily, in terms of housekeeping, who you rely on in emergencies. All that stuff adds stress to a separation.

      Good luck with the logistical dance!

      1. niche job albatross*

        Ooh, the backups are a good point. Second set of keys to the apartment, cat-sitters, etc. Another list to start :)

    3. Ali G*

      How often in the beginning will you be able to go back on the weekends do you think? A few years ago my husband, who is a consultant got put on a Big Important Job across the country. We had just bought our first house together (and first SFH for both of us). He was across the country for work for 2 weeks at a time and then flew back for a week. So I saw him one week of every three for 9 months.
      I think it helped that we had the new house, so there was a lot to keep me busy at home, but it was stressful because at the time I also had a high stress job with travel (and we have a dog).
      We just powered through. On Valentines Day my husband texted me a pic of him holding someone else’s flowers and it said “Love You – if you want these come and get them!” Just keep in touch however works for you. We texted a lot because we were on different time zones.
      It can be lonely. One thing – if you are going to be the one who stays in the “new place” first, try to not get too settled in. We had a few, err, exchanges when Hubs was home for good because I unpacked the whole house and set everything up how *I* liked it. I had to learn to be a little flexible because it was *our* house, not *mine*.

      1. niche job albatross*

        Depends on which job I end up taking, but we’ve resolved to make a plan for the first few visits before I actually make the move. We live in the house she bought prior to meeting me, so the “my” vs. “our” place “err, exchanges” have happened and we’ve gotten to a point where we can laugh about that issue and keep dancing on it. The new place will definitely be set up primarily for my convenience + occasional visits, and we would likely look for a bigger place when she’s able to move out. I love the V day flowers pic text, that sort of humor will keep us afloat. Thanks!

    4. Dr. Anonymous*

      My boyfriend and I dated long distance when I was in residency, and we were not even in the same state. We called and video chatted and texted a lot. A few times we ate dinner together over video, and I think that was one of the most valuable and intimate things we did while we were apart. Just eat together and talk about our day as if the distance were just no big deal.

    5. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I’m in a similar kind of situation. Home is in North City (UK), where we own a house. About 5 years ago husband got a job in London, so we rented a flat there as well as keeping our house. My job consists of a lot of short-term contracts but I try to stay with jobs that are either in London or close enough to home that I can stay there easily. It is very common for me to be unemployed for months at a time so I will often stay in London for a few weeks at a time, but I like to be in the house whenever possible to take care of maintenance etc. It works OK but I know that husband misses me a lot and it makes him a bit depressed to be alone so much. We video chat and send each other a lot of WhatsApp messages throughout the day, and when we’re in the same city spend a lot of time doing nothing together.

      Right now I am hoping to get a job that would be permanent and based in North City. If I get it, husband will probably look to get a job back up here, too. It would kind of suck because we have a lot of friends in London but it’s such a tiring place to live in many ways.

      1. niche job albatross*

        zomg, if I could find a job in NorthNorth City in the UK, we’d just move back (wife is a UK citizen) and live together and be near family and all would be well with the world. I think the Northeast coast is just about the best place in the world to live. Wishing you luck on getting back there!

  115. Dzemael*

    Did I do something horribly wrong? Or did I avoid a possibly bad workplace?

    I interviewed for a entry position in a company on Monday where the interview itself took 15 minutes. The interviewer only asked me two questions total and the time was mostly spent with me asking them questions and trying to feel out the place. Three hours later, I receive a letter from HR stating that I received the position but the offer letter and email didn’t sounded a bit.. off? Like some things weren’t capitalized properly (Hr instead of HR) and I was given the title of “Data Entry”, not “Data Entry Clerk/Coordinator”, etc. The offer letter only listed my hours and wage so I emailed back, politely thanking them and asking what the benefits of the position were since I didn’t get the chance to fully discuss it (interviewer just said that the team takes vacations together). On Tuesday, HR replies that my interviewer should’ve told me that the position is only wages and sick days. I reply back, asking for clarification because the job posting listed a lot more and honestly that sounds like a lot of BS.

    Then on Wednesday, I got an email stating that the position was filled? What the hell? I’ve never been in this situation where my job offer was pulled, much less possibly due to me asking questions about my benefits? I’m still stung by this because I was looking forward to the job and it was a really short commute. Not sure where I messed up since I tried my best to sound professional and kind…. Is there anyway I can avoid this kind of situation again?

    1. Amber Rose*

      You don’t want to avoid this kind of situation again. It is much better to dodge the bullet than get hit in the face with it.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      It sounds like this was a shady company who was trying to pull a fast one on you and then backed out of hiring you once you saw through their scam. I think you dodged a bullet. If they’re this shady in the hiring process, imagine what they must be like to work for.

      (Also, they take vacations TOGETHER???? What??)

      1. Dzemael*

        I had a weird gut feeling during the interview but now I guess I was justified?

        The interviewer mentioned that the team takes two vacations every year together which kind of raised my eyebrows. Along with the fact that the 50-something manager said that “he feels young again” since he primarily works with 20-something year olds…?

        1. Not All*

          o.m.g.

          That isn’t a bullet dodged, it’s a 5-alarm-building-on-fire-while-under-artillery-fire dodged!

        2. Not a Real Giraffe*

          TWO VACATIONS TOGETHER? Wow. Wowowowowow. So people that work at this place never, ever get a break from each other?

          Always trust you gut!

      2. Clisby*

        I wonder what kind of company it was. I’m from SC, and years ago it used to be standard that some textile mills would have a mandatory shutdown/*vacation* during a particular week (I think it was around July 4.) My father worked in a paper mill, and there was a mandatory shutdown every year to do special machine maintenance, etc. – only the absolutely essential employees worked that week. If this is some sort of business that has predictable downtimes, it might make sense at least to limit vacations to those periods. I doubt that “the team takes vacations together” means they go off on the same cruise together – but it might mean they all take the same 2-3 weeks off every year.

    3. revueller*

      You did exactly what you should have done, which is follow-up with more questions about benefits. That is what you do for any offer you get. It sounds like their hiring department at the very least was deeply unorganized, not necessarily acting maliciously. You did nothing wrong.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      Your gut was right.

      They pulled the offer because they didn’t want to hire someone who was going to ask normal appropriate questions, and who expected them to act professionally and be consistent. Maybe because they are shady, maybe because they are just unprofessional and slipshod.

      Either way, that is a good outcome for you. On to better things.

  116. Augusta has gone East*

    I was gonna add a long rant about how I’ve hit a low point in my job search this week. I have many stories similar to the unpaid internship offered at the end of an interview process, I posted about it last week.

    Then I cried a little, took a deep breath, talked to SO and decided to give myself permission to take a week off from applying to jobs. I desperately need to force myself not to browse LinkedIn and stress about not seeing any position that would even remotely fit my profile.

    Good luck to all of you job searching and remember that sometimes the best you can do is to take a break. I’m lucky enough I can afford it and hope I’ll be back with some enthusiasm.

    1. Anon (this time)*

      I am currently dealing with major depression and anxiety due in part to chronic PTSD, but also extreme burnout at work. This job is incredibly unhealthy for me but like so many people, I don’t have enough in savings to get through a full month without a paycheck, much less enough time to recover and find a new job. It’s a really high priority to get me out of here and into a job that is not so hateful.

      That being said: sometimes I go to LinkedIn or Glassdoor or other job sites and as soon as I click the link I feel my breath getting shorter and my chest getting tighter. I have such a strong anxiety response, plus a wave of feeling hopeless, that I really had to step back and accept that as important as it is to find another job, I have to do it at times when I can access resilience and keep myself calm. It’s not worth exacerbating already serious mental health issues.

      Right there with you. Take breaks. Be gentle with yourself.

      1. Blueberry Smoothie*

        I just left a really unhealthy job last month because circumstances there caused a resurgence of PTSD symptoms that had been under control for years. It culminated in a bad panic attack and and a flashback, and me needing to leave without notice.

        I’m hopefully nearing the end of the job search – I didn’t have savings and OldJob is fighting my unemployment despite documentation and things have been very scary. I’m supposed to hear something today about a job I’ve invested hours of interview time into, and now it’s after lunch and I feel a little…broken.

        Taking breaks and being gentle is good advice.

        Good luck. Getting out of an unhealthy situation and recovering from burnout is hard.

  117. FoodieNinja*

    I posted a question last week asking for tips about how to stay fresh through a full day of interviews. I greatly appreciate the folks who responded with advice. The interview was yesterday, and although I did start to feel a bit worn after hour #5, I think things went really well. This was my first job interview in 8 years, and I am really beholden to Alison and the AAM community for all the knowledge you share.

  118. we're basically gods*

    New question: How do I give my two weeks when I haven’t got any huge complaints about my position?

    I’m currently working in Llama Operations, and am seeking a move into Teapot Creation. Completely unrelated fields. I took the Llama Operations job because I needed work while finishing my coursework for Teapot Creation. It’s one of those W2 contractor jobs, where I’m not really an employee of the company I go to every day for work, but it’s an indefinite position.

    I like my team and my office, but it’s just not at all the work I want to be doing, not to mention that Teapot Creation pays significantly more.

    Complicating matters is the fact that my mother passed just over a week ago, and the start date for the Teapot Creation position I’m optimistic about would require that I give my notice on Monday. I had also scheduled unpaid vacation time for the Friday and Tuesday around Labor Day weekend, and I’m not sure how to navigate that.

    I’m very new to the white collar workplace, and have never had to give notice at a place in a situation where I was just leaving for a new job– in the past, it’s always been either that I was working a summer job, and had to leave to go back to college, or my college job, where I quit because I hated management and the job was destroying my physical and mental health.

    Halp.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      You can give your two weeks’ notice and leave on good terms with Llama and just tell them you’ve enjoyed your time there, but you’re taking a position with Teapot.

      I know you want to give your notice Monday, but have you thought about giving it today? It’s not technically two weeks’ notice if you’re leaving Friday, August 30, but it’s pretty darn close (off by one day).

      1. we're basically gods*

        Unfortunately, I don’t have an offer yet– things are moving quickly enough that I’m relatively optimistic, but there’s always a chance I’ll biff it at the in-person interview this afternoon, and I’m not making any moves until I have an offer in writing.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          If that’s the case, I definitely wouldn’t give two weeks’ notice on Monday. Wait until you have accepted the offer at the new place, and then give your two weeks’ notice. It’s fairly standard for new employers to recognize you’ll have to give notice and can’t start right away.

        2. Bear Shark*

          And if new place won’t give you enough time to give two weeks’ notice, consider that a red flag. It’s not always a red flag to have a hard start date (or for the company to want you to start as soon as you can) but unless you’re going to be working at something like Teapot Creation School (where they need you to start at the beginning of the school year) it’s a bit inconsiderate for the new employer to expect you to start less than 2 weeks from when they give you the offer, and you don’t have the offer quite yet. Good luck with this afternoon’s interview! Hopefully you get an offer and the timing works out.

    2. PopJunkie42*

      I think I’d stick with some very general language, like “seeking new opportunities” or “looking to make a move into a new field”. People might be curious and ask for details but you can just say you’re working on applications and taking your time to plan a new career move. If you’ve been taking classes/certification then people probably expect this on some level. I think, like Allison says, if you keep it light and breezy and don’t show any interest in going into details, that people will take their cues from you and stop asking too much.

    3. Not a Real Giraffe*

      You frame it as “a new opportunity came my way and I couldn’t pass it up.” If they press for a more detailed reason, you let them know the new roles will focus on X, which is an area that you are excited to grow into. People quit jobs they like when something really wonderful comes their way, all the time. Your boss will understand!

      As to the unpaid vacation time, you should bring that up as “I know this cuts into my transition time” and you start a conversation with your boss about the best way to approach it. It’s possible (though probably unlikely) that they make you cancel your days off, but it should be a two-way conversation where you both negotiate the terms.

      Congratulations to you and good luck!

      1. we're basically gods*

        Thank you! I might use this language specifically, because it really did kind of tumble into my lap– I got called for a quick phone screen less than an hour after applying.

  119. Pseudonomnomnom*

    I’m so fed up with how my department handles birthdays. Everything is too much: too many emails back and forth, too much money spent, too many gifts, too much food. The coworkers who love to shop apparently couldn’t resist adding package after package to a gift for our boss, who does really nothing to discourage this. And as far as I can tell, we’re the only department in the entire company that makes such a production! All because of a couple people who are Really Into It.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      No advice, but commiserations and ARGH on your behalf. It’s not sustainable.

    2. WellRed*

      If they are asking for $, don’t give them any. Can you speak up, generally? I bet you’re not the only one sick of this.

      1. Wishing You Well*

        Yeah, I’d quit giving them money. People should take their paychecks home, not spend them at work.
        Are you gifting up? That’s not okay, according to AMA. Maybe it’s time to gently point out the problems with this escalating activity.

  120. Going Anon*

    The office gossip is that one manager is leaving her (temporary) position because no one told her that the permanent position opened up while she was out on sick leave and she should put in for it. Another manager is being moved to that spot after being denied the permanent position in the team she is in due to not being technical (what the heck!?!?!?!). And my useless unit lead is going to become the manager of that unit (she’s a lump, really?).
    Y’all. Y’all.
    This, combined with my current manager rumored to be leaving at the end of the year and hoarding our work so he can do it on overtime. Meanwhile, some of us are doing data transcription work instead of our real jobs because otherwise we’re sitting twiddling our thumbs.
    The stupidity hurts.

  121. TooMuchWhiteClaw*

    Having gone through a string of temp jobs after graduation, I finally landed a good perm position as a sales assistant, thanks to the advice I’ve seen here. Now it’s my turn to ask.

    The sales team I support was one of the worst in the territory up until the last couple of years, now we lead the territory, everyone does well here and that success is what created my role and got me here today. Over drinks one night, one of the sales leads told me in confidence what the secret to the turnaround from worst place to first place. Our manager had called a meeting last year, asking everyone on the team to withdraw $500 from the ATM and meet in a conference room, under orders to tell no one. As they gathered the money, the manager said he was approached at a networking event by someone selling a confidential pricing document from our biggest competitor, enabling us to undercut their rock bottom price on every deal. Apparently, it worked since the team has been on a winning streak ever since, enabling my hire and maybe another admin to help me.

    This is my first sales job and I really like being part of a winning team like this, but I’m not sure about the whole document thing. Is this just the way of business?

    1. LPUK*

      No it absolutely is not! This is a very worrying lack of ethics and I’m stunned that everyone apparently went along with it. Please don’t take this as the way business is done – It’s so far beyond normal boundaries you’re need a telescope to spot it!

    2. Agent J*

      I have so many questions. Were they ever refunded the $500? Do they have some secret pact never to tell anyone outside the team? As LPUK says, this is so woefully over the line that I’m surprised they haven’t been caught yet. This is not a good way to conduct business.

      1. TooMuchWhiteClaw*

        I didn’t press it any further because he raised his glass “the best $500 he ever spent” and quickly changed the subject. I’m not 100% sure that he isn’t telling stories to mess with the newbie, but it sounds feasible. If the team was in bad shape and the team was on the verge of getting sacked, $500 bucks out of pocket to get back much more in commissions and keep your job as long as nobody blabs (until now, I guess) is a small price to pay.

        All I can really do is keep my eyes open more to what goes on. Not like I can go to my boss and ask if he took up any collections in the recent past.

    3. Ali G*

      I hope this is some sort of test or prank! If not, wow, you need to understand who you are working for. This could very well blow up for everyone involved, which unfortunately is you now too.

    4. T. Boone Pickens*

      Your sales team is doomed and when wind gets out about this (the only way to keep a secret between a group of people is if everyone is dead but one person) I would assume everyone on your team will get canned. This is so hilariously over the line in terms of ethics I’m not even sure where to begin.

    5. The New Wanderer*

      Isn’t that textbook corporate espionage? That exact thing at my company would get everyone involved fired yesterday. You might want to get out ASAP.

  122. Construction Safety*

    The new project engineer who started Monday? Quit Thursday morning. Said “It wasn’t a good fit”
    I’m thinking (in no particular order):
    1) He got a better offer.
    2) There’s family involved.
    3) He looked us over for 3 days & decided to make a run for it.

    1. Zona the Great*

      I’ve wanted to do the same before. I really want to quit when I show up to start a job and the employer has no computer/office/network access for me and instead hands me manuals to read. Did they not know when they asked me to start? I hope you re-fill the position soon!

    2. Agent J*

      That happened once at an OldJob. For him, it was #3. We figured he didn’t like us very much and that his personal politics didn’t fit in (the company itself was politically neutral but a lot of employees were more liberal-leaning).

    3. Goose Lavel*

      This happened at my old job where a peer engineer abruptly quit and then was hired back as our manager one week later.

      What was unusual as both myself and two other Engineers gave him the thumbs down based on our interviews with him. Then he comes back as our boss! We were told that he was better manager material and had the technical expertise to direct our critical project.

      His lack of technical skills and poor decision-making almost killed the whole company within 6 months.

  123. PopJunkie42*

    Oh, you guys. I am just coming for some commiseration.
    I’m a few months into a new-ish job that has been hit and miss, some great things that I love but unfortunately bad training and a lot of bad communication about my role and how it balances with other staff. I’m adjusting and learning and trying to stay positive but there have been struggles.

    One of my coworkers was out taking care of a sick family member who unfortunately passed away (elderly). She just met with me yesterday and implied, in so many words, that myself (and others) e-mailing her throughout this meant she didn’t get to spend quality time with her family member before they passed away. I wanted to SCREAM. I cannot enforce someone else’s boundaries for them! And she has set things up so she is the only person in the department who handles a ton of things (no cross training and bad documentation) so there’s literally no one else to ask. I assumed she was ignoring her e-mails and would get back to things when she returned.

    My friends are telling me to let it go as she’s obviously in the midst of grief and just lashing out, and I’m trying. But it killed my entire day and I cried when I went home. She also implied I wasn’t doing my job because I had to reach out to her to ask for help (like 2 months into a new position).

    Trying to start the new day fresh…

    1. Sunflower*

      I’m sorry :( I’m in a similar position as you- a few months in and every day is somewhere between ‘pretty good’ and ‘crying before i come in/the night before’. I agree with your friends about the coworker- she’s just lashing out but I know it’s hard to not take that stuff personally.

      I was the most tenured person on my team at my last job and probably trained over 10 people during that period- it’s really hard going from being the person who knows everything to being the person who knows nothing. The biggest thing I’m facing is how much manual data work is done when there are ALREADY systems in place to automate it- but yes, let’s ignore that and keep wasting resources manually checking boxes.

      Hope things get better :)

      1. PopJunkie42*

        Thanks so much! I definitely struggle with something similar. I really loved my last job and was the go-to person for everything. I gave myself a lot of pep talks going into this new job because I knew I hated not knowing what was going on and not being the expert, and I had to be ok with that. I also think my coworker has a lot of subconscious issues letting go of her job (was there for years, is possibly retiring soon). Fortunately, my boss and other coworkers seem to think I’m doing a great job, so I’m just pushing through the training period and hoping for things to improve!

    2. Alice*

      Oof! That is awful. I mean, your friends are right, but knowing that intellectually doesn’t make it any easier to actually let it go.

    3. ginkgo*

      OMG, that sounds like the worst parts of my last two jobs combined – coworker setting themself up to be indispensable and then guilting you when that (naturally!) doesn’t go well, plus making you feel stupid for asking questions when you’re new (so not fair). I would cry too (I did, in fact). I’m so sorry you’re dealing with that!

  124. Forward march!*

    I’m starting my own business. The amount of tedious paperwork and accounting keeps dragging on and feels insurmountable, and it’s a little depressing that the day on which I can Do Interesting Things keeps getting put off. Any words of advice/support?

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      I wish I had advice here. I just wish you the best! And I also hate those people who post up on LinkedIn that people who work at a company are suckers and should start their own companies.

      1. Forward march!*

        Thanks! Also, I hate the same people you hate, as well as the people who post on Facebook that obviously the reason that people can’t afford to start their own companies is that they’re spending too much money on Starbucks and avocado toast!

      2. RS*

        Old Boss started doing this and it’s so annoying. I want to support him in his new venture but I find his new attitude so condescending.

    2. anon61*

      I believe there are firms which offer one stop, paperless admin/accounting/payroll services to small businesses. They do the accounting and other tedium, freeing you to do the interesting things. Of course, you have to pay them….

  125. Flatfooter*

    Apologies if this has been covered before- it seems like an age-old question- but do other female professionals have recommendations for work flat shoes that look professional but actually support your arches? I have an office job that often requires a lot of moving around the building/long periods of standing and my feet feel like achy pancakes by the end of the week. I’ve tried Born flats and in general look for flats with some squish, but it’s not cutting it. On a related note, do flats just wear out quickly? I tend to wear my shoes to death (2-3 years) so maybe flats just…flatten…faster than I’m used to, and I need to replace them more often.

    1. Miss V*

      I wear Rothy’s. They’re more expensive than some flats but I find they hold up well. I have a purple pair I bought three years ago that I wear multiple times a week that still look great.

      I like them because they’re actually a knitted material, made from recycled soda bottles, and are machine washable. Seriously, every few months I toss mine in the washing machine and then come out looking great.

      Only thing is the indoors don’t do much for cushioning so I just take them out (no big, theyre made to be removable) and put in my own Dr Scholls.

      1. Goldfinch*

        I agree that Rothys hold up and are comfortable, but frankly they reek. By the second wear I can smell them on me, despite sachets/spray antiperspirants/hosiery. Your feet just marinate in the non-absorptive plastic all day.

        As for wearing work shoes out quickly, I’ve stopped wearing them to commute and it helps a ton. It’s a pain to carry an extra pair of shoes back and forth, so I keep a pair under my desk, but not tearing them up on asphalt has made a drastic difference.

        1. Goldfinch*

          ETA to add that yes, they are easily machine-washed, but it’s not realistic to do it every wear IMO.

          1. Miss V*

            I’ve never noticed any smell with mine, but I imagine if I did I’d certainly like them a lot less. I wonder if maybe using my own insoles is the magic trick? Maybe they’re less prone to smelling/help with evaporation somehow?

      2. it happens*

        Rothys are very good looking and easy to care for. They are not, however, supportive in any way. They are half a step (and 1/8”) removed from barefoot. I would not use them if I actually had to walk any distance. (Don’t get me wrong, I have three pair and love to have them in my bag as my ‘in case it starts to rain but I still want to look good’ shoe.)
        I second the Walking Store recommendation- in person is best, but their website is also very good.

    2. Matilda Jefferies*

      Cobb Hill. They’re made by New Balance, and they seem to be that unicorn brand that are both comfortable and attractive!

    3. PopJunkie42*

      Oh, this is my struggle every year. I have bad feet and need lots of arch support and I really hate the “squishy” shoes. I found a “nice” pair of birkenstocks I wear in the summer (we are a bit more casual at my university) and I just bought some Vionic sandals that are pretty good, and they seem to be a highly recommended brand. Clarks have worked out for me although I don’t like the sort of suede footbed they have, but the support is there.

      In my city we have a local shoe store that’s a bit high end but specializes in really good supportive shoes, so sometimes I go there and look for brands and inspiration!

    4. merp*

      I go for oxfords personally. I don’t have any particular brand, just look for dept store sales.

      I do second the rothy’s suggestion, I love mine.

    5. Not All*

      I like Clarks but I have fairly wide feet.

      I’ve found I get much more comfortable dress shoes when I shop at stores like Scheels/REI/Duluth Trading type places. Took me a long time to even think of looking there for work shoes as opposed to just my hiking boots but all my favorite work shoes have come from either Scheels or REI for probably a decade.

    7. Yuan Zai*

      Clarks are my go to; I’ve also done pretty well with Easy Street, which I get at Macy’s.

    8. Policy Wonk*

      Nurse Mates or SAS both have good options. I don’t often see them in the stores, but they are available on line from Zappos.

    9. JessicaTate*

      If you have a The Walking Company store near you, I’d try there. They have a lot of options with really good support – some are even fairly cute! – and can advise on which ones can swap out for a different insole (and let you try it). They also have a big online store; I just find my feet are challenging and I need a real life try-on.

      I got some Dansko flats and additional insoles there that met my need, as well as a pair of Abeos with a bit of a wide heel that look even more polished and are incredibly comfy.

    10. Fikly*

      I’m not sure if this is exactly what you’re looking for, but I had such severe flatfoot that I had to have surgery, but the best orthotics I found before that were Aertrex. Most stores will let you try them in your shoes before you buy them for comfort!

      I don’t have a brand recommendation, because I am stuck with sneakers even after my surgeries, but feels from a person who has to try on 20 pairs of shoes and then leaves with none, and gets annoyed looks from sales people like I chose to have feet like this.

    12. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

      I put insoles of some kind into almost every pair of shoes I own. I found some inexpensive gel arch supports (99p at Savers in the UK) that go in every pair of flats or dress shoes, and I have an assortment of different insoles that I’ve collected. I don’t know how other people can deal with normal shoes without some kind of extra help because I’ve rarely ever bought a pair that was comfortable on its own, and my brand of choice is Clarks.

  126. DNDL*

    This is petty but…

    I really hate the word kindly. I have a coworker who signs off every e-mail with kindly, but also uses it in the body of the e-mail.

    “Kindly find the teapot reports attached.

    “Kindly,

    “Coworker.”

    Stop!!!!

      1. Polaris*

        We get a lot of “gentle reminders” from our foreign associates. Sometimes the words are followed by almost transparently veiled snark.

        1. A teacher*

          Ugh, yes. The gentle reminder. Just remind me or don’t. I’m a big girl. I can take it.

    4. Mediamaven*

      I feel that way about “Be well.” When people sign off like that. Be well. Please don’t.

      1. Windchime*

        That’s how I feel about “cheers!” as a sign-off. Unless you’re handing me a glass of wine, don’t say “cheers” to me.

    5. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Where I come from, “kindly” is pretty nuclear. “Kindly remove your suitcase from my foot!” If I read “kindly” in a work email I would think I was being scolded.

      Is coworker just doing a Find-and-Replace for the far more suitable word “please”?

      1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

        I end emails with “hope this helps!” when (and only when) I really want to end them with a string of profanity and a filter that directs future emails from that sender to spam. That may just be me, though.

    7. Moray*

      I don’t like this either, but some people use it to imply gratitude in advance. As in–if you do this, you will be doing something kind, and I will appreciate it.

  127. Anonymous Educator*

    This is super geographically specific, but I know we have some LA folks here…

    I’m about to start a job that’s on the other side of town (it’s a long story—if I could have lived closer to work, I would have, and I may move next year to be closer, but for now I’m stuck). Even though I’m going to experiment with both waiting in major traffic and in taking public transit, I had a question about how best to use the Metro.

    Google gives me two major options for transit. I can take the bus for 10 minutes, and then do a Gold line, Purple/Red line, shuttle because of construction, and then Expo line. Or I can take the bus for 1 hour, and then do Expo line.

    In theory, Google says the two methods will take roughly the same amount of time, but given transfers and whatnot, would I be better of just staying an hour on the bus, and then switching to the Expo line?

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        Yes, that would be the first option. Maybe this will help…

        Option 1
        Bus (10 minutes) -> Gold -> Purple/Red -> Expo

        Slightly complicated by some construction right now that means there’s a shuttle to get from Purple/Red to Expo, whereas you can normally transfer directly.

        Option 2
        Bus (1 hour) -> Expo

        1. Dzemael*

          As a LA person who’s taken the metro since middle school – please go with option 2 for the sake of your sanity. Four different buses/lines and the transferring and waiting will drive you crazy because nothing ever runs on time (though Purple/Red has been pretty consistent for me). Honestly, I would consider driving because your commute time will be at least 1.5-2.0x longer based on the distance that you’re planning on.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Thanks, Dzemael. I think in the early stages, I’ll probably go with alternating driving and doing option 2. Believe it or not, the driving will not save that much time, based on the traffic patterns I’ve seen during commute hours (it’s a little shorter on the way to work, but about the same amount of time on the way back in the evening).

            1. Dzemael*

              I wish you luck with the commute! I’ve always had really long work commutes (and will probably have another one with my next job) and don’t have a car, so I wish you all the best and that you won’t get stuck with too many weirdos.

              1. Anonymous Educator*

                Thanks, Dzemael. I took MUNI for many years in SF, so I’m used to a pretty high level of weirdness on public transit. I’m hoping this won’t be too different, or at least maybe different in a better way (but I doubt it).

                I’ve done long commutes in the past. I don’t love them, but I’ve endured them, and this would be for 1 year max. I used to commute from Rhode Island to Boston, so…

        2. CAA*

          How long is the shuttle ride from the purple/red line to the expo line and when is the construction supposed to be done? Also, can you read comfortably or do other activities on the 1-hr bus ride?

          I’d probably go for option 1 because there’s more opportunity to focus on reading or knitting or whatever since it eliminates 3 vehicle changes. But on rainy days, I bet option 2 is actually faster.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            The shuttle ride is fairly short. It’s two stops on the Metro rail that are closed for construction. Doesn’t rain a whole lot in LA, but I’m guessing traffic is even worse when it does rain? I also think the construction might be done within a month or so. That said, even without the construction, it’s still bus->Gold->Purple/Red->Expo instead of just bus->Expo.

            1. CAA*

              Oh yes, driving (or riding a bus) in L.A. in the rain is a whole new level of torture! I see I mixed up your options. I meant to say I’d go for option 2 most of the time, but option 1 when it’s raining.

              1. Anonymous Educator*

                Sounds good! Definitely don’t want my supposedly 1-hour bus ride to be stuck in much longer traffic because of the rain.

        3. H.C.*

          I regularly Metro (about 15 minutes longer than driving, but I also have freedom of not having to sit in traffic, pay attention to road, etc.) and I’d go with Option 2; fewer transfers = fewer chances of delays & missed connections.

          1. Anonymous Educator*

            Yeah, that was my inclination, but good to get confirmation from others on it. I figure if I buffer enough time, it should be good to just zone out for a bit.

    2. Auddish*

      Fewer transfers is usually less stress, especially if you’re getting on the bus when it’s fairly empty and you can get a seat. Plus, I always felt safer on the bus than the subway because the driver was close-by and able to kick off anyone acting strange (I’ve been on both a bus and a subway in LA when someone lit up a cigarette. On the bus, that person was kicked off before they could take a drag. On the subway, everyone on the crowded subway sat their quietly knowing there was no way to realistically get the person off the train until the next stop.) Plus, you don’t want to end up missing a connection because your bus had to take extra long stops or was late in traffic.

      Good luck!

      1. Anonymous Educator*

        If you ever move to LA, find a place to live that’s near your work, if you can.

  128. Scout Mom*

    I hope I can get some information, or maybe some direction for a website to look up information. My 17 year old son did an unpaid school internship this summer. After his required 200 hours were completed, his employer has asked him to continue to do some intermittent work from home on a database (please do not ask details as I am a technophobe). He will be doing anywhere from 5-10 hours a week during the school year (so not that much money) and getting paid via 1099 invoice (I don’t know if that is the right terminology). I know that with 1099, no income tax, social security , or medicare taxes are taken out and he is responsible for paying taxes quarterly. Does he pay it altogether as a quarterly payment to the IRS or is it separate payments? Since he is still my dependent on my taxes, is there a minimum amount of earnings that he does not need to pay taxes on or will he just have to fill out a 1040 form in January and get his income taxes returned to him? If anyone can point me in the right direction or website I can look at I would really appreciate it. Thanks so much.

    1. Natalie*

      It’s extremely unlikely that he would need to make quarterly payments – there is a safe harbor for payers who owe less than $1,000 in taxes when they file their return in April. Unless he thinks he’ll earn more than ~$10K from this job, he won’t owe more than $1,000 in taxes. However, he certainly could make estimated payments if he wants to. (Link to the IRS page in a reply.) If he overpays his estimated payments, he can file a return and collect a refund just like any other tax payer.

      Since these are self employment earnings, he has to file a tax return if his net income from the job is greater than $400.

        1. peanut*

          Just a note – be sure to fill out form 1040es (there’s a link to it from the page that Natalie linked to) to get an idea of how much tax you’ll have to pay. There are different kinds of taxes – when Natalie says your son is unlikely to owe more than $1000 unless he makes over $10,000, I think that is only income tax. Self employment tax (the social security and Medicare taxes) will be an additional hit of 15.3% of what your son makes, on top of what his income taxes are (with his income being what he makes minus any deductions and minus half of the self employment tax).

          But the best way is to just print out a copy of the form 1040ES, and go through the worksheets with your son to give yourself an idea of what to expect and whether he might need to make estimated payments.

        1. Natalie*

          :)
          Something else I should have mentioned is that he should be able to take advantage of the IRS Free File program or a VITA volunteer site when he does his actual taxes next year. Tax prep software companies tend to charge *a lot* for the forms for self employment income, so unless you already have an accountant you like I would direct him to the free resources instead. He can find them by doing a site specific search on irs.gov (a general search is just as likely to get him to deceptively marketed paid tax products.)

          1. it happens*

            Yes, and be super-sure that he knows that he has to file as someone’s dependent. Which means he will not qualify for any earned income tax credits that a less-than-observant preparer may offer him.
            It would also be a good pre-adult task for him to download the paper forms and do the return himself by following the directions. One 1099 with <$1,000 income is a pretty low-stakes and simple exercise. It just takes a little patience and careful reading of step-by-step instructions.
            Also, advise him to make a plan with the boss on when/how work will be distributed to him, deadlines for completion, and billing arrangements. All of this should be in writing. As another pre-adult task.
            Hooray for him!

  129. Miss V*

    Does anyone here have experience working at a distillery/brewery?

    I’ve had someone reach out from my network about an open position at a bourbon distillery and encourage me to apply (it’s on the customer service/retail side of things, not the actual distilling part.) Even though I’m happy at my job and not actively looking I went ahead and sent my resume over because why wouldn’t I want to work at a distillery?

    Obviously I have no idea if this will go anywhere, but does anyone have any experience with something like this? What sort of culture should I expect? I’m assuming it’s more casual than my current office job, but I’d love any insights from other AAM readers.

    Also, if I do get asked to interview, outfit suggestions? Again, my gut suggests my usual suit would look out of touch for such an interview, but I don’t want to be underdressed on a hunch.

    1. H.C.*

      RE: interview attire, visit the brewery/distillery on a separate occasion and take note of how their staff dresses – and take it up a notch or two for the interview.

      1. Miss V*

        I thought of that but unfortunately a glance at their photos on Yelp show that (at least the customer facing employees) wear a uniform of khakis and a polo with their logo embroidered on it.

        It’s a good suggestion for others in this situation though!

    2. Yankee in Dixieland*

      I’ve worked in breweries for a few years, but distilleries tend to be slightly more image conscious, in my anecdotal experience. For the interview, I’d go in with dark jeans or slacks and a nice button-down or blouse. Close-toed flats or non-high-heeled boots, for sure. Something you’d go to happy hour in with your office colleagues and not feel under- or over-dressed. A suit would be off-puttingly formal.

      H.C. suggested going to the distillery to see what they wear, and you seem to have written off that suggestion, but you really should go to the place you are applying to before you get called in for an interview so, at the very least, you can try what they’re serving and speak intelligently about the product you’d be selling. Most people who transition into craft from the office world do so because they’re passionate about the product. Speaking from the perspective of someone who has interviewed a lot of bartenders, I can’t really see it going well for you if you have never been to their establishment when you live nearby.

      Culture really varies, but craft beer, spirits, and wine in the US heavily skew white and male. Be prepared for “bro culture.” Customers may (will) challenge your experience and knowledge simply because you’re female. Advancement opportunities at the retail location are likely limited to becoming General Manager, so it’s worth it to think where you want your career to take you if that’s not your end goal. It’s not common for small breweries/distilleries to offer much in the way of benefits, if at all. Your income will max out at whatever your place of business can handle per day, 7 days a week. Raises aren’t really a thing unless you’re in management (and even then, very often, your staff will average more per hour than you!).

      Also, variable schedule and physical fatigue. Repetitive use injuries and back/joint pain are common. Make sure you keep your skills fresh in whatever field you’re thinking of leaving in case you want to return a few years down the line.

    3. ContemporaryIssued*

      A friend’s sister worked in a brewery and because it was a small one, she quickly transitioned into an accounting role after being their publicist. Depending on the company you may end up wearing many hats or jumping from one role to the next if it suits your skillset.

  130. Audrey Puffins*

    Co-worker C has always been a bit of a pain (she doesn’t understand what our team does, when she wants something she wants it NOW, she’s very quick to CC in higher management unnecessarily, etc) but I fear that co-worker T and line manager D have got to the Bitch Eating Crackers stage with her. I couldn’t in good conscience use an Alisonism like “that’s surprising, I’ve always found C very easy to deal with”, but I would love some professional ways of saying “could y’all maybe stop bitching about C quite so much? It’s very annoying for me and I think you’re exaggerating her impact on your day because of the whole BEC thing” if anyone’s up for it.

    1. LCL*

      “Please don’t tell me anything more about C, I have a hard enough time concentrating on my own work.”

    2. Quill*

      “I’d prefer not to have to deal with C when she’s not in the room in addition to when she’s in it,” might be enough “I respect your upset but you gotta stop.”

  131. Sour Patch*

    Hey All,

    I’m a government employee applying for a different government position. I had my interview, my references were called and the hiring manager emailed me to let me know they would be in touch soon. It’s been a couple weeks, should I follow up? What should I say? I’m getting anxious over here :/

    1. Not All*

      No, do not follow up (unless you have another offer in hand and need to ask them their timeline because you’d rather take theirs but need to make a decision). They aren’t going to forget to make you an offer if you were their top candidate, and they aren’t going to tell you it’s been filled if you are their second choice (or didn’t make the cut at all) while they wait for the selected candidate to officially accept.

      Assuming you are referring to federal government, a couple weeks is NOTHING. At this stage, the hiring official:
      1) checks all the references for their top candidates
      2) gets the scoring from the committee (most use a hiring committee not just one person)
      3) sets up a meeting with the Big Boss to go over everything with them and get Big Boss’s approval on their preferred candidate (frequently not just a formality…Big Bosses quite often over-rule or ask for additional information)
      4) Send preferred candidate’s name to HR to make sure no bumps have come up
      5) call candidate to verbally verify they are still interested
      6) give HR the go ahead to prepare actual offer

      You can see where someone out sick/on vacation, busy schedules, etc can easily eat a few weeks. Throw in that it’s approaching the end of fiscal year and everyone is swamped with that and really, a month is more to be expected.

      1. Sour Patch*

        Hey Not all, it’s State gov.

        1. I do have another offer
        2. They’ve already called my references and checked my HR file.

  132. Pork Belly Fries*

    During interviews, how do you politely push back but still have a good chance of being hired? For reference, I’m applying to entry level positions.

    For example, I’ve had interviews where I found out the hourly wage while speaking with the hiring manager/interviewer because the job posting is sparse (not uncommon for entry level positions I guess?). Sometimes it’s pretty low and the interviewer asks whether I’d be OK with the wage. In my head, I would really like it to be higher but I feel like I don’t have much room to complain since I’m entry and I don’t want to “mess up” my interview. So I put on a smile and say that I can make do with that wage so the interview continues to flow well. But is it possible to push back a little bit, something like “Oh that’s a bit lower than I expected – would it be possible to take into account of my prev 1 year experience in Alpaca Admin work and raise it by $1-2?” Or would it completely turn off the interviewer and I’m done?

    Also, how do you act if you realize that a job isn’t for you during the interview process? Do you end it quickly yourself or wait till the end to later send an email to the interviewer? Thanks everyone!

    1. Thatoneoverthere*

      You can ask if there is any wiggle room in the salary, or if its a fixed number. Or ask well I was hoping for $X, is the salary open for negotiation?

      Just make sure you are in line with what entry level positions pay in your field. Sometimes people, may be off for realistic pay for a position (either high or low). Look at Glass door to see what people are paying for positions you’re interested in. Google it as well or ask friends (if they feel like sharing). You could also negotiate for more vacation or benefits etc.

      Personally if I know an interview isn’t for me, I don’t end it unless its completely ridiculous. Like I went to an interview where they wanted to pay me $9 an hour for a position, and that was so unrealistic for me. I almost had to stifle my laughter. I just said “I am sorry I don’t want to waste anyone’s time, including my own. So I am going to have to end this interview.” They said ok, and I left.

      1. Pork Belly Fries*

        Thank you, I’m glad to hear that asking for any wiggle room won’t automatically throw my resume into the trashbin. The issue with looking up salaries is that I’m applying for entry level admin work that only requires a high school degree while I have a bachelors and ~2 years of solid work history. So I’m not sure whether I’m being an elitist idiot for asking for more than $14/hr in LA when my past wages have been at least $3 more.

    2. Sour Patch*

      I think another important thing to consider is what sort of benefits are being offered. If the salary is somewhat lower than you are comfortable with, do the benefits cancel out the difference? Because low pay combined with poor benefits is never a great combination. I think it’s also important to research what the salary standards are in specific fields, even in entry level positions. I once take a position in oil and gas (entry level) I was being paid extremely poorly in that industry, even for an entry level position. I tried to negotiate a higher salary, but they told me the company had generous bonuses so I agreed. It turns out $2000 a year is “generous.” I quit to go back to State government and automatically took an over $10k increase in salary, so that should tell you how much I was making in oil and gas.

      1. Sour Patch*

        I meant to finish off my comment by saying don’t ever low ball yourself, you will always regret it. I know you want to find a job and yes, entry level doesn’t mean great wages, but you still need to make something close to a living wage. As Allison has mentioned on this site, it’s easier to negotiate a salary early on before you’re hired than after.

      2. Pork Belly Fries*

        Yes, the benefits are something I’m definitely looking for as well! But I’m only vaguely told that there’s health insurance and other benefits by interviewers. Would you say that it’d be good to ask for more information so I could have a better understand of how much these benefits would be “worth”?

        Also, I’ve recently worked for a state university and was amazed at how much more they were paying for admin I positions compared to other entry positions I was looking at… Admin I were making at least $20/hr while the jobs that I applied to were usually $14-15/hr which I found interesting…

        1. Sour Patch*

          I think it’s something that is somewhat difficult to ask during an interview, because it’s more of an HR/ benefits administrator question. If you were to receive an offer, at that point, you could ask if you could review a summary of health insurance plan options. I wish places were more upfront about benefit packages and salary for that matter because it would save everyone involved a lot of time and energy.

        2. Natalie*

          You’d generally ask about benefits when they’ve offered you the job, you wouldn’t ask for details in an interview.

          Keep in mind that, unless you’re in a desperate situation where you need a job yesterday, you’re not trying to “win” the interview at all costs. If the wage is too low and that would be a problem for you, don’t accept the job.

    3. That Would be a Good Band Name*

      I wouldn’t tell them I’d be ok with it if I couldn’t actually be able to live on it. I’d probably say something like you suggested. Or maybe not even get into that much detail and say “That’s lower than I was anticipating. Is that firm or is there any for discussion?”

      If it’s widely out of sync (I once had someone say a job was 12/hour when I was looking for a minimum of 40k/year), then I just end it there. There wasn’t any chance they were going to come up to what I needed, so no sense in continuing. I also ended an interview just 5-10 minutes in when I found out that it was a receptionist position that they were trying to call an entry level accounting position (it was at least at an accounting firm, but it was just answering the phones/scheduling/etc).

      I wouldn’t worry about “messing up” your interview. If something you need means you don’t get the job, then it’s not the job for you. Good luck!

  133. madhatter360*

    I’m in the middle of job hunting to change fields and I have some questions about etiquette.
    1. I had a phone screen today. For various reasons, I need the timeline to be a bit rushed, and they are being very accommodating, I have a second phone interview today. They also sent me materials to do a take home assignment for Tuesday. How do I do the thank you e-mails in this scenario?
    2. I’m changing fields. During the first screen I was asked about salary expectations, and I quoted a number $X that seemed reasonable from research, and higher than my current salary. The guy I spoke to said “we can do better than that” and said to expect a number at least $X+5k, up to $X+10K (which is great!). How do I negotiate if an offer actually comes through? Given that the range he quoted is already a huge jump for me, do I really need to negotiate?

    1. CAA*

      Skip the thank yous for the first phone interview if you’re talking to the same people today. Otherwise send a thank you after today’s conversation to everyone you’ve spoken with. You can mention in the email that you appreciate them accommodating you by scheduling the second interview so quickly and that you look forward to speaking with them again after you send in the assignment next week.

      You do not have to negotiate if you are satisfied with the offer you get! If they do come in lower than the numbers they gave you, it’s fine to say “so-and-so mentioned that the range for this position would be $x + 5 to 10K. Is there any way you could come up a bit on the salary?” If they make you an offer that’s in their range, you’ve already indicated that would be acceptable to you, so you don’t have a position to negotiate from. The exception would be if you get information about their benefits and can say something like “I was really expecting 3 weeks of PTO, which is typical of the other employers I’m interviewing with, but I see you only offer 2 weeks with no separate sick leave. Could we talk about that?”

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I asked for $18/hour, the last time I was in the running for an hourly position, and they offered me $23. Since I had already expressed that I was looking to work for $18 and they had bettered that pretty dramatically, I felt that it would’ve been somewhat disingenuous to ask for even more on top of that. So no, you don’t need to keep negotiating if you’re already happy with the offer. Good luck!

  134. jack*

    I have a co-worker that uses the term r***rded somewhat often, and I haven’t called her out on it (I know, I suck). I’ve been here almost a year now, what’s the best way to go about bringing it up now? I’d prefer not to do it when we’re around other people, I’m afraid of everyone dog-piling on me for being the “SJW” of the office.

    1. Lilith*

      I think the others would pile on her rather than on you. Anyway, just pull her aside sometime privately after she uses the word & say: “I’m not sure if you are aware but that word isn’t used anymore cuz of X. You never know whose cousin, son, relative could have a developmental delay/disability and I don’t think you want to embarrass yourself by using an outdated (?) ter m.”

      1. Shiny Swampert*

        You could even phrase it as if you’ve only just found out yourself and of course she’ll want to know this information.

    2. sacados*

      Best to go with the approach like “By the way — I know you don’t mean any offense/you probably aren’t aware, but actually that word is now largely considered to be offensive… I know you’d want to know so you don’t accidentally offend a client/coworker… ” etc.
      Because it’s true that the awareness of the word as a slur is fairly recent. I was watching Drop Dead Gorgeous with my cousin and his 16 year old son recently and it was suuuper awkward. At one point my cousin and I turned to him and were like “Yeah… so, they used that word a lot in the nineties….”

  135. Can't remember my name*

    I posted about this when it first happened, then went radio silent online at the advice of my attorney. I was laid off last year, one of two people on my team who was laid off at the time. I had just requested a reasonable accommodation for a health issue I was having, and the other person who was laid off had just informed our manager that she was pregnant and would be taking time for doctor’s appointments and, ultimately, 12 weeks of maternity leave, all of which was covered under FMLA.

    Yeah, it didn’t pass the smell test. Fortunately, I found a new job relatively quickly. I also lawyered up. It looks like I’m finally going to settle for a decent sum of money soon. It’s not as much as I would have liked, but it will definitely help make up the financial hit I took by being out of work for three months last year. The company’s attorney was absolutely awful throughout, and the company’s response to the EEOC took a scorched earth approach to my career and character. I told my attorney at one point that I used to think I’d worked for good people who made a mistake, but now I know that I worked for total flaming a**holes.

    My legal fees are about $9,000. My attorney estimates that my former employer spent at least $150,000 to avoid having to pay me three months’ back pay. I’m settling for more like two months’ back pay, plus attorney fees.

    So, to all you out there who feel you’ve been discriminated against, a conversation with an attorney is well worth it, and I wish you all luck.

    1. Bostonian*

      I really appreciate you sharing this. (And I’m glad to hear you got a settlement.) I felt really defeated after not being able to collect worker’s comp after a work-related injury, even with lawyers, years ago. It’s nice to hear that the system works for some people!

  136. Xantar*

    Can someone give me scripts for giving feedback to a job candidate who did poorly in the job interview?

    I have a former coworker, “Chloe”, who is working for a pretty terrible manager. I supervise a position that’s vacant, so I encouraged her to apply (not just because I know her but because she has some skills that I thought would be useful). Unfortunately, she bombed the first interview. It was with a panel of people who all agreed that she was extremely vague and wouldn’t give any answers that showed how she would be an asset. I have a feeling she just doesn’t know how to interview.

    Although I wouldn’t say we are friends, I do like Chloe and want to help her. I can’t hire her when there are other candidates who did much better in their interviews, but I do want to give her feedback that will hopefully help her out next time. What’s a kind way to do this?

    1. Xantar*

      For what it’s worth, Chloe is in her 30s and has had multiple jobs before. She isn’t an incompetent person. I was kind of shocked at how badly she did.

    2. Anonymous Educator*

      I think the key here is to emphasize you’re giving her some general tips for the future and not focus too much on this particular performance or imply that if she’d done X, Y, and Z, she would have gotten the position she applied for.

      Something like “I’m not saying if you did these things you would have necessarily gotten the position you applied for, but I have some interviewing tips for you that you may find helpful for future interviews, if you’re open to some feedback.”

      1. Wishing You Well*

        I like the “if you’re open to feedback”. If you get anything less than a “yes”, she doesn’t want your input and you’ve done what you could. I hope she listens to what you have to say, though.

      2. Zombie Unicorn*

        Actually I think if you don’t focus on specifics, you’ll be doing her a disservice.

        I lost out on an internal interview recently and I really appreciated being offered feedback about how I could improve – the key is to frame it as being what stronger candidates did, not a guaranteed ticket to getting the job.

        I would ask if she wants feedback and if she says no then she says no. But if she says yes, it can be helpful to hear things like:

        – For this question we were looking for X / had hoped to hear more about Y.
        – With questions like this, it’s important to talk about Z.
        – Strong candidates spoke about A, B and C.

        And frankly if it was me I would want to know that I was too vague! She has a much, much better chance of escaping her bad manager if you are truthful with her.

        I got feedback that means I’m much better prepared for future interviews. I saw that as a gift – I told people close to me that I didn’t get the job but it was ok as I was so well prepared for next time.

  137. Parsley*

    Ooh, another question. Anyone here work in public health? Are there recruiters for our field? I haven’t seen one before. I’m trying to find out where to find them. Do you just set up a notification on your LinkedIn that you’re open to recruiters?

    1. Ryan Howard’s White Suit*

      I do! I’ve never come across a recruiter. I work in repro, though, which is a little more casual with job postings.

    2. Mym*

      I have been in the field for almost 20 years, and have never heard of anyone being hired through a recruiter, even top executives. I wonder if it might be due to many public health positions being government or nonprofit orgs, who don’t typically have a lot of spare cash?

  138. curly sue*

    A quick wording question! My battle with professional email etiquette anxiety continues.

    I had reached out to a senior colleague regarding a project they were involved with. They replied very kindly, redirecting me to two others, “Fred,” whom I know a little (have chatted at conferences and collaborated with on a very small project) and “Susan.” I don’t know Susan yet, but I do know that she’s familiar with me and my work, we have many colleagues in common, and I definitely want to connect with her. We’ve all been cced on the email.

    “Thank you for the introductions” implies that I don’t know either Fred or Susan, which might annoy Fred.

    “Thank you for the introductions! I’ve collaborated with Fred on a previous project and have been looking forward to meeting Susan” feels awkward, especially talking about them in the third person when they’re going to be cced.

    What’s better wording for this? (We’re all academics, if that changes anything, but tone needs to be chatty while still formal / not sucking up. I’m dreadful at this group-email networking thing.)

    1. Emily*

      I actually think the second one sounds fine:
      “Thank you for the introductions! I’ve collaborated with Fred on a previous project and have been looking forward to meeting Susan” feels awkward, especially talking about them in the third person when they’re going to be cced.

      You could also modify it slightly so you’re speaking to them directly. Like:
      “Thanks for the introductions, Senior Colleague!

      Hi Fred, I believe we worked together briefly on the X project. Susan, it’s nice to e-meet you! Looking forward to working with you both.”

      1. Emily*

        Oops sorry – meant to delete the part of your comment where you said that sentence felt awkward.

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      For me and my experience, it would be three sentences, all in one email.

      (Senior) – thank you for the connections.
      Fred, it will be great to work together again.
      Susan I look forward to meeting you.

      Everyone will scan all three lines, see their individual call out, and know you’re being polite to all.

      1. curly sue*

        Thank you!
        To clarify, we’re not actually going to be working on anything together. (That is, I’d love to, but there’s no project currently underway.) This was an “I’m reaching out for information on the status of [ongoing thing]” email originally that turned into “by the way, why don’t you have a conversation with Fred and Susan, who work in the same area and would be excellent contacts for you.” So there aren’t any official meetings planned, though I’ll likely be seeing Fred at a local thing in a few weeks, and Susan’s in a different geographical region entirely.

        So would something like this work?:

        “[Senior], thank you for the introductions. Fred, it’s a pleasure to ‘see’ you and I hope we get a chance to talk at [local event]. Susan, I’ve been looking forward to connecting with you – I would love to chat about your recent project [x] sometime.”

        1. Donkey Hotey*

          Perfect (in my eyes).

          Make it one per line so that each person’s name will pop and that’s exactly what I would send.

          Good luck!

    3. Audrey Puffins*

      I’d just use “connection” rather than “introduction”, I think it’s more accurate without inadvertantly being all “but I already KNOW these people”.

    4. Lilysparrow*

      “Thank you, (colleague name,) for the referral. Fred and Susan, I look forward to speaking with you further about the project.”

      No need to itemize your entire relationship history with Fred. Colleague did you a favor, it’s done, you can just move on with the other two.

  139. Emily*

    I have a question for people about CRM (customer relationship management) / project management software systems. Right now, my organization organizes all of our client information (and other information) in Microsoft Office files in shared folders. But our job requires us to keep regular updates on ~ 50 clients, and it’s also helpful if we can access information about the 1000s of clients we’ve worked with in the past.

    This seems crazy to me. There have been many times where I have to spend way too much time searching for information. Or I’ll do a bunch of research on a prospective client only to later realize we worked with them 10 years ago and already have tons of information. It’s also a problem because we’re constantly updating each other on the statuses of different projects because people don’t update the Word/Excel files with all the pertinent information.

    There are several industry-specific software systems (similar to CRM or project management systems) out there that I think would be incredibly helpful for our organization. I’ve brought this idea up before with my boss, and he generally thinks it’s a good idea. However, there has been some hesitation because he’s not sure whether people would actually use the system.

    My question is – does anyone have experience with a CRM / project management system being implemented and being super helpful and saving tons of time? Or maybe the opposite – being implemented and no one used it? All I can find online about personal experience are case studies that were sponsored by the organizations making the software systems.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      Does your boss have the power to force people to use it or their jobs are in danger? I have been in both places that don’t use CRM and have scattered Word docs and places that do use a CRM. Obviously, the latter scenario is much better. I have also been in places that have a system for something (not a CRM but something else) that no one uses, and that’s extremely frustrating.

      The key is that both things have to happen:
      1. You have to get a proper CRM
      2. You have to force people to use it

      If you get the CRM and people don’t use it, that’s worse than if you’d never gotten it in the first place.

      1. Emily*

        Those are good points, thank you! My boss does technically have the power to force people to use it, but most members of the team are highly skilled, and I don’t think they would ever be in danger of losing their jobs over something like not updating a CRM. So I’m not sure what the consequence of not using it could be, other than the natural consequence of making life difficult for other team members.

        1. Anonymous Educator*

          I mean you don’t actually have to be fired right away. There are other ways to compel people. Bad performance reviews. No bonuses if you don’t use it. Or the other way—bonuses for people who do use it, and better performance reviews. Also literally just making people’s lives miserable if they don’t use the CRM. But, yeah, ultimately if you don’t do what you’re supposed to do for a long period of time, you get a PIP, and then you get fired. It doesn’t have to be you typed in a Word doc and then got fired the next day.

    2. Poppy*

      Do you have the budget to implement it properly & well from the get go? Because in addition to forcing people to use it, if it’s poorly implemented it will be a disaster.
      I’ve gone through the first scenario – but it was nearly a year of dedicated work to find and implement the right one, even before we started staff training. And it was a hugely expensive endeavor but so worth it.

    3. Not All*

      They implemented it in this office before I started & it has been an absolute disaster. If we are ever litigated (or even just FOIAd) we’re completely screwed. 6 years in, I’m going with the issue isn’t that people needed time to adjust.

      I’ve been a project manager in 2 agencies & 3 offices and have never had issues with files systems just using servers as long as I was hard-core with the team about file naming structures and locking the edit function at certain project benchmarks. After seeing the disaster in this office, I am using the file system as a screen-out question for future jobs!

      1. Emily*

        Interesting perspective, thanks! Yeah, 6 years in doesn’t seem like it’s an adjustment issue. Makes sense it could work if you’re hard-core about how you go about editing documents. We are definitely not that structured.

    4. Hillary*

      I swear I’m not saying this just because I went to a change management seminar last night…

      This is where change management is crucial. You do a discovery process with the stakeholders, really dig into their pain points, and use those pain points as the scoring mechanism for the product selection. Then you engage them in the implementation process with the goal of turning your pilot group/implementation team into evangelists. And you keep evangelizing and training for months longer than you think you need to.

      1. Emily*

        Good perspective, thanks! From the responses here, it seems like this is a bigger undertaking than I imagined. I kind of thought we could just purchase the software, do the one-time implementation with the software company helping out, and then begin using it.

  140. Sue*

    Question I’ve been mulling over –

    About 4 months ago, I was unexpectedly offered a leadership position at our small, new, and extremely under-resourced organization, in the middle of our busiest time of the year. Part of that job was hiring candidates for my team.

    Because we were so slammed and the leadership structure had some quirks in hiring authority, I didn’t send formal rejection emails to people who interviewed for those jobs – even the ones who made it pretty far (I did respond when people emailed me affirmatively). I should have done that, and will prioritize it in the future, but did not.

    Now that we’re less slammed, I’d like to reach out to those people, apologize/thank them for their time/offer myself as a networking resource if appropriate. But is it too late, or would they still appreciate getting it? Is this weird? Does it make things worse? If not, how should I frame it?

    input much appreciated!!!

    1. Emily*

      I think you should still send the responses! Better late than never. Maybe just apologize for the delay, explain it was a very busy time, and that you really appreciated getting to know them and for all the time they put into the interview process.

      1. Alice*

        I think better late than never, but it should be personalized. And I would also consider following up with the people who you already responded to to reiterate that you regret that you didn’t do it proactively, and intend to do it proactively in the future. But that could be overkill, depending on how much you already apologized.
        I’d also make it entirely — I realize this happened, I’m sorry, it won’t happen in the future, thanks, networking resource. I wouldn’t discuss why it fell through the cracks — that is water under the bridge now.

    2. Sam Foster*

      Depending on how long it has been as a recent job seeker I’d be more annoyed than relieved. If I haven’t heard from a prospect in a few weeks I assume it is done and move on.

  141. Nicki Name*

    I’m practicing asking about salary early in application process. Sometimes I get answers! Though they are not always useful answers, like the one where the initial phone screen was being done by someone at the company’s national headquarters, so they only had the overall national range, covering offices in cities with big differences in COL, so it ran from approximately “hell no” to “hell yes”.

    In the meantime, my current job is sending me signals that maybe I should start searching less casually. Like the CEO cc-ing the entire company on an e-mail reply where they displayed good intentions but a poor grasp of an aspect of racism. And the team lead telling me I can’t start on the next stack of work before an arbitrary date next week, even though I have nothing else to do, because it’ll mess up our statistics. Luckily I have some things to read that can count as professional development but aaaargh.

  142. Mandjari*

    What do you think of implementing a (personal) uniform? If I worked in a more business formal environment, I would have no problem wearing the same thing every day, but I work in a much more laid back environment. So I’m thinking:
    – White, tailored, long-sleeve, button-down shirt
    – Dark wash, skinny jeans
    – Black shoes (flats in the summer, boots in the winter)
    (Optional blazer if meeting with upper management or presenting)

    1. Quill*

      That sounds pretty good. Generally speaking I’ve been getting away at current office job with black or dark wash skinny jeans, a blouse, and a cardigan. Well, today I’m wearing a “fancy” tank top, which you can’t tell is a tank under my short sleeve cardigan.

      If you think you need a pop of color, jewelery, the blazer in pretty much any color, or a scarf would work with your uniform easily.

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I think that’s exactly what the very most stylish people I know already do: at least 3/4 of their work clothing is identical, with “flair” for variety. Sometimes the flair is hair up with a silk scarf, or it might be a statement necklace, or a waistcoat/vest, or as you say a blazer. Unless you pay close attention you don’t notice that the actual clothes are almost always the same.

      There are some good small prints for button-downs which would feel functionally identical but add variety if you were worried about it looking too uniform (I’m looking online at Joules, TM Lewin, Boden, Next, etc).

      1. Quill*

        My go to piece of statement jewelery is a steampunk necklace that’s most of the guts of a watch. To the point where I wear it at least once a week.

    3. Goldfinch*

      I do it, but via like kinds of clothes instead of an actual same outfit every day. So all summer I wear the same brand/cut of buttondown shirt in a variety of colors, and all the same brand/cut of pants in black or blue or gray. I just find what works, then buy multiples to cut down on decisions. Everything is just different enough that no one comments on it.

    4. Moray*

      When people do this, they usually make a point to change up colors, just enough that it can’t be mistaken that you’re wearing the same shirt multiple days in a row. :)

    5. LLG612*

      I always though it would be awesome to be a cartoon so I could wear the same thing every day. I’m in a pretty small (<20), informal work environment and I’m the boss and people tend to notice if you wear the same thing, even though some people wear a uniform of sorts. I’m still trying to figure out how to just buy multiples of my staples!

    6. LQ*

      I have a personal uniform. It is the same dress cut in different colors/patterns. I just order the same one in a few color. Done. I think in part because I have different colors/patterns it doesn’t feel the same to everyone else, but it feels gloriously the same to me.

    7. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      I do this, but with shirts that are different colors and patterns but the same cut and fabric. No one will suspect you of only owning one pair of pants if you own nothing but 10 identical pairs of bland black slacks, but they may notice if your shirt is the same every day. I make a point of not repeating a shirt within the same week, and if I wasn’t currently experiencing a Need A New Shirt Supplier wardrobe crisis I’d aim for not repeating for two weeks instead. (I’m very picky about 100% cotton, and that’s getting harder and harder to find the past 5 years or so.)

    8. Tornado Alley*

      Sounds good! 4/5 days a week I wear black pants and a solid colored top—I’ve found one style I love and buy it in multiple colors— with a scarf or statement necklace. On Fridays, we wear jeans and “spirit gear” that I embelish with a pair of Converse older than not only my students, but also some of the faculty at the school where I teach.

  143. Prof. Dalhousie*

    ISO organization/productivity tools/systems that don’t drive me crazy. I feel like I’ve looked at a bunch of them: GTD, Evernote, One Note, Trello, Todoist, time blocking. The issue for me is that none seem a good fit for every facet of my job (middle manager at an urban public library): big projects; small to-dos; recurring tasks; tracking things I’ve delegated; tracking things for my direct reports (tasks, questions, things to think about for future); tracking things for meetings with other managers; informational emails that inform those tasks (there’s a lot of stuff I need to remember just for when I’m on desk helping the public). I try something and then it always devolves into a million post-it notes.

    Do you have anything that works for you, particularly if you a middle manager?

    1. Anonymeece*

      Also in a library!

      Honestly, I just built a custom Google spreadsheet that tracks everything. The first tab is a dashboard. It tracks the “tasks” tab and references who claimed it and when it’s due. The dashboard has a pie chart showing the status of the projects (“In Progress”/”Complete”/”Not Started”). It also has “Upcoming Events” where it references the due dates and shows the ones that are upcoming. To the side, it shows how many tasks are assigned to each person, which is great as a manager so you can see that everyone is more or less doing the same number of tasks.

      The second is the tasks for everyone. It has a list of all the projects – broken down into parts. For instance, the first row is for the due date, the second for the task (like, “Put in marketing request for EVENT”), status (that complete/in progress/not started” thing), who claimed it, and a notes section to track in-progress tasks (like, “Waiting for reply to marketing request; follow up by X date”). All of this is sortable and has conditional formatting so that it highlights in red the projects due within the next two weeks, say.

      The third tab is a sandbox for ideas that aren’t quite ready to be actually broken down/assigned due dates, but I don’t want to forget. I also have a separate tab for tracking requests to other departments, so that I know when to follow-up (so like marketing requests, IT requests, etc. so that I can know when I put it in).

      I keep a similar separate spreadsheet for just my tasks. Same thing: sortable, filtered, and conditional formatting, but with an additional category for “Delegated” and I note in the “Notes” section to whom I delegated it to.

      It’s time-consuming thing to get it set up, but since it’s so customizable, it’s MUCH better than software that doesn’t really get what you need. I learned most of the formulas from a knowledgeable coworker and just googling, “How do I do this in Excel…”.

    2. Lilysparrow*

      Not a middle manager, but I recently switched over to using Gmail with Calendar & the Tasks app to run a GTD-like system.

      It’s particularly good for recurring tasks or reminders to follow up on things. And I like being able to drag emails directly to the calendar or the task list/sublists. You can create a list for each person or project, as well as a “waiting for reply” list, and so forth.

      You can do much the same thing in Outlook.

    3. Zombie Unicorn*

      I think you need to work out exactly what you want from a tool and then you can find one that does it. Do you prefer folders or nested lists? Are colours and priority flags important to you? Etc. One person’s perfect tool might drive someone else crackers.

      I’m also not sure that all belongs in one system. Sometimes it can help to separate tasks and reference material. But if you want it all together, maybe try OneNote or Notion.

      1. Prof. Dalhousie*

        Thanks to you all for the feedback! I will play with ideas here, but I think Zombie Unicorn is spot on in that I need to do a bit more forensic investigation on what it is I’m looking for with each type of task.

  144. AmyRo*

    Hi Folks!

    Has anyone here attended a data analysis boot camp or coding boot camp? I’m considering a career pivot to escape my current terrible, horrible, no good very bad workplace, but I’m not sure if it’s a realistic option or an escape fantasy.

    I’m particularly interested in the data analysis/data science options, but would love to hear about folks coding boot camp experiences as well. What program did you attend? What was your experience like? How long did it take you find a job? Salary? What were you doing before, and what are you doing now?

    Thank you!!!

    1. we're basically gods*

      I finished a full-stack web development boot camp in May, and am currently in the full swing of job hunting, with a lead I’m fairly optimistic about in the works.
      I did mine online through the University of Denver, and it was 6 months of 10 hours a week, 6-9 Tuesday and Thursday and 10-2 on Saturday. The work varied widely in how difficult I found it, which I took as a good sign for helping me figure out what kinds of positions I ultimately wanted to pursue.
      I came to the bootcamp through a relatively unusual route: I did it when I was fresh out of college. I had gone into college intending to get a degree in computer science, but despite my love of and skill at coding, I am abysmal at math, and had to change majors after failing calculus for the fifth time.
      I would definitely make sure that you do like data analysis and/or programming before signing up for one of these programs. You don’t mention in your post if you’ve had prior experience, but I just wanted to caution you. I personally adore programming, just for the sake of doing it, but it’s not for everyone. Don’t get yourself several thousand dollars in the hole before realizing that you despise the work!

    2. lemon*

      I did a bootcamp in iOS development. It was pretty intense. I’m glad I did it, but the bootcamp format was hard for my learning style. Every week, we met two weeknights and one full Saturday, which doesn’t give you a lot of time to do homework. After a couple of months, that wore on me. I didn’t end up becoming a developer. I realized the parts of the class I liked the most were the product/UX design portions, so I decided to start a master’s program in that.

      However, it did help me get my current job– I do website stuff, but not development, which got me a 70% salary increase from my old job (I was woefully underpaid). Mostly because it was just another interesting credential. Other folks in the program did go on to other tech roles– one guy become a product manager, one woman became a business analyst, a few other folks did actually become developers.

      So, I think your employability will depend on: how hard you apply yourself, and how open you are to different roles.

  145. ANon.*

    A VIP within my org is looking for a cat sitter. My husband’s former student has cat sit for us a couple times – she absolutely loves cats, and I know for a fact would love more opportunities to be with cats.

    I asked my husband if I should recommend her, and he said no since it would be bad to mix personal life with business. On the one hand, I see his point (if something happens, I would feel bad for having provided the recommendation). But on the other hand, if it does work out, it’s a win-win-win: cat-sitter gets to be paid to spend more time with cats, manager gets a cat sitter who will do more for her cats than just feed them and clean litter, cats will get extra play time and love.

    Since it’s my husband’s contact, I’m not going to offer the gig without his approval. But I’m interested to hear thoughts.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I think it would be mixing personal and business if you were offering to cat sit. I think this situation is more like if a colleague was asking where you get your car serviced or if you have a recommendation for a plumber.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      I think you can offer the cat sitter’s contact information, and vouch that you’ve used them successfully. But it’s on the VIP to check them out on their own.
      You could say: “I understand you might be looking for a cat sitter? I used this person in the past and was happy with them, you may want to check them out.”

    3. valentine*

      I don’t see a problem. Past the intro, you(r husband) need not be involved. If any problems surface, you would say you hope they can work it out, but you can’t step in. There’s someone here who held a grudge against a coworker who sat for an animal that died (of old age, I think). If you think the VIP would shoot the messenger, don’t get involved.

    4. Morning reader*

      But it’s not mixing personal with business. Your former relationship with her (teacher/student) was business and so is your current cat owner/cat sitter relationship. You can definitely recommend her as a professional cat sitter.
      Unless you didn’t pay her for the work and you have a social relationship where you were just exchanging favors.
      Maybe just ask her first if she wants more cat sitting business and get her permission to pass her info along.

    5. anon61*

      I disagree with your husband.

      This is your work VIP, not his. If you think the cat sitter that you have used would be a good fit, I see no problem in you recommending her. The fact that she is your husband’s former student, to me, means nothing. She is not “his contact,” in this context, rather she is the person who cat sat for the both of you.

      Why does your husband even have to be involved? Your work VIP doesn’t need to know, and probably doesn’t care, that the cat sitter once took a class with your husband. Indeed, your work VIP probably doesn’t care about your husband at all, or his teaching job, or who was or wasn’t a student of is, etc. If the cat sitting doesn’t work out, that, depending on how big a jerk your CEO is, will be on you at your work, and won’t affect your husband’s job or career at all. If your husband has some reason to think that former student will screw this up, he should tell you. But there is no way that this is mixing personal and business matters.

  146. Googlymooglies*

    Not about me specifically, but I have a general interview question! My workplace is conducting interviews, and I’ve noticed a few candidates arrive 15-20 minutes ahead of time, which of course is preferable to lateness, but then the interviewer will often be busy until the agreed upon time, so the candidate is waiting for a good 20 minutes alone in a room by themself. Is this rude somehow? I’ve seen on here posts about interviewees being made to wait and it being a red flag, but surely if THEY were the one that arrived early, they’d likely be fine with it? Or am I just overthinking this, haha.

    1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I think I’d walk round the block if I were quite that early, but 10-15 minutes is a good amount of time to flick through the trade magazines or printed articles in the waiting room; use the restroom perhaps and straighten your collar; sip a glass of water and let your blood pressure settle, etc.

    2. Colette*

      They’re too early – you want to shoot for 10 minutes early, not 20. So no, it’s not rude to let them sit there. My bigger concern would be the security aspect of having a non-employee unattended.

    3. Anonymeece*

      As a hiring manager, gah. Showing up 10-15 minutes early, nbd, but I’ve had people show up 30 minutes early and I had to let them wait because I had a meeting/obligations. That’s why I scheduled the interview when I did. I feel guilty making them wait and have re-adjusted my schedule to accommodate early arrivals sometimes, but I’m afraid that actually makes me sort of salty with the candidate.

      I’ve only had one candidate actually say something about how long they were waiting – when they showed up way too early – so I think most people do understand, “This isn’t the manager’s fault, this is mine.”

      Agreed with the General above – if you show up SUPER early (which happens! You don’t know where the building is, afraid traffic will be bad, whatever!), take a walk around or do something else, then show up to the actual interview only 10-15 minutes early.

      1. Zombie Unicorn*

        “I’ve only had one candidate actually say something about how long they were waiting – when they showed up way too early”

        Somehow I’m guessing you didn’t hire them.

    4. Kiki*

      I’m pretty sure when most people complain about having to wait for an interview, they mean waiting past the expected start time.

      I wouldn’t be stressed out by candidates arriving early and having to wait! Most early arrivers expect that and are just making sure they gave themselves enough time to find the meeting location and not get held up by anything. As long as someone is there to greet them, let know where a bathroom is, tell them where to sit, and maybe even offer them some water, you’re doing great! I would honestly be surprised if I arrived 20 minutes early to an interview and they wanted to start the moment I walked in the door!

    5. Mellow*

      On the flip side, I once arrived to a job interview exactly six minutes early, politely let the secretary know that I was there, that I knew I was slightly early, and that I would be sitting in the reception area, figuring she would invite me to have coffee and cheerfully say that someone would be there to meet me in a few minutes.

      Instead, the secretary called the search committee chair immediately, and, from the secretary’s side of things, I could tell the person was highly annoyed that I’d arrived a few minutes early.

      I swear, in some situations, interviewees CANNOT win.

    6. Middle Manager*

      In my state government we have to use a predetermined set of questions for all candidates and typically the candidate gets 15 minutes to review them in the waiting room, so 20 minutes is very reasonable to show up.

      Even in other cases, I just tend to be an early person. I’d much rather wait 20 minutes in a lobby sometimes than get lost or have a parking issue and show up late.

  147. Lime Green Slime*

    The television screen (mounted from the ceiling) in my workplace’s break room was hooked up to cable recently. The channel was set to Fox News and has remained unchanged for several weeks. No one knows where the remote control is or if one exists. Is this worth complaining (as a group) about? A few coworkers agreed that it would be better if it were set to something a bit more neutral.

    1. Alice*

      My advice: get a stepladder and use the buttons on the bottom or side to get to, I don’t know, Animal Planet.

    2. Emily*

      You could try first framing the question so that it’s not centered around the problem being Fox News. Like, asking whoever might know (management? person who installed the TV?) whether it’s possible to change the channel so that you don’t have to watch the same station everyday. Whether it was Fox News or something like golf or HGTV, watching the same channel constantly could get old.

    3. valentine*

      It would be better if it were set on fire. Are there no channel controls on the side? No plug to rip out? Nothing to put over the speakers? Who will be the hero and bring in a remote?

      1. curly sue*

        I use a free phone app called QuickRemote to replace a lost remote for our old basement tv. It takes a bit of fussing to get set up, but all you physically need to be able to connect it to something is line of sight.

    4. NicoleK*

      Yes, it’s worth complaining about. Fox News is hostile to certain segments of the population. If you have employees who belong to those population, they may find the workplace unwelcoming.

    6. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

      It’s a pity we’re not coming up on a big sportsball tournament. That’s a nice, non-controversial reason to need the change the channel to something else, but the next big one is probably MLB playoffs, which is entirely too far away.

      It may help if you as a group suggest that it be set *to* something else specific rather than focus on what it’s switching *from* to avoid arguments. “We’d all really like to watch The Food Network (or whatever) during lunch, so can we leave the tv on that instead?” is asking for a specific thing to happen rather than just saying what you don’t want to happen (even if the actual case is that you’d rather it be on a test pattern than Fox News).

      With relatives who want to watch the news all day (I don’t want to watch cable news of any kind in bulk), I usually declare a strong interest in sports (if possible, in some specific sporting event that I want to follow the outcome and commentary about, but if I can’t think of one I just declare a generic interest in sports) and seek out whichever ESPN is not currently showing some form of people punching each other, with a preference for talk shows/Sportscenter when available. I’m not sure if this would work in an office setting, but it might.

        1. Seven hobbits are highly effective, people*

          I’d forgotten about that one! I’m not a fan of tennis so it’s not something I’d watch intentionally (I really dislike hearing the screamy-noises some of the players make), but it would be a nicely neutral thing to have on in the background at work in a situation like the OP’s.

    7. Kat in VA*

      I generally get into the office a half hour before everyone else. It is not unusual to see the TV set to the NASA channel, Teen Titans Go!, NASCAR racing, and on one memorable occasion, Teletubbies.

      But we all know where the remote is, so it gets changed to BBC more often than not. :(

  148. Job hunter & aspiring networker*

    Hi all! I have a networking/applications question. I went to a networking event last week, and had a great conversation with an HR manager about an open position. Over the course of the the conversation, she mentioned the position was posted on Indeed; she also briefly made mention of me talking with her/seeing the site.

    Afterwards, I found the position on Indeed, and sent her my typical cheerful ‘nice to talk with you/would love to talk further/am attaching my resume’ post-networking email, but also mentioned in the email that I had found the position I believed she’d been talking about on Indeed and would look into applying this week.

    I was hoping that if she replied I could take my cues from her (if she offered to talk with me, or if she just said ‘great, I look forward to your app!’, and so on), but I didn’t hear back. I’m planning to apply to the position today/tomorrow, and was wondering if I should mention that I spoke with her in my cover letter. On one hand, it’s not like she’s a professional contact who can vouch for me; we just met an event. On the other hand, it feels a little odd not to acknowledge that I found the job (and learned more about what they’re looking for in candidates) through our conversation. Thoughts?

    1. Mellow*

      I always state in my cover letter where I saw a job ad, so, in this case, I’d say something like “I’m writing to apply for X job, which I heard about at Z event.”

      I wouldn’t mention a person’s name, though. The company knows who was there representing it, and so could see your mentioning the person as name-dropping.

  149. Gypsum*

    My job ends when April starts; I am under contract to work until then. When is a good time for looking for another job? (I am in IT, if that makes a difference.) What are some numbers out there on timeframes?

    1. valentine*

      Removed. It is fine to point out that the word is now considered a slur, but please understand that many, many people do not know that and are learning it for the first time when it’s flagged for them and so you need to be kind about it. I’m removing a long derail about it. – Alison

      1. Amber Rose*

        Don’t use racist slurs and your welcome everywhere will be much more cheerful. Unfortunately, you don’t really get to complain about not being welcomed when you’re being offensive. :)

        As to your question: I’d probably start casting lines at the beginning of the new year.

        1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

          Let’s cut some slack, here. I don’t think recognizing gypsy as a racial slur is as well known as others yet. It’s good to raise the issue, but there’s no need to be hostile.

          1. Peacock*

            It was definitely well known as an offensive slur when I was a teenager, which was 20 years ago. Also I’m really not a fan of being nice to racists and cutting them slack.

            1. Wannabe Disney Princess*

              I, honestly, didn’t know until just a few years ago that it was a slur. It might be a geographic/regional thing.

              However, personally, I’m a fan of giving people the benefit of the doubt and an opportunity to learn and change. Which the poster did upon learning that it was a slur.

        2. Gypsum*

          Gosh… I don’t know how to respond.
          I didn’t know it was considered offensive, and I changed it right away.

          What you said is pretty… aggressive. Aren’t personal attacks against the rules of commenting for this forum?

          And that is roughly what I was thinking for the timeline too.

    2. Wannabe Disney Princess*

      If you have a pretty solid network, I’d say start looking at around the end of 2019/beginning of 2020. If your network is a little shaky, I’d (personally) start putting feelers out a little bit sooner.

  150. LibbyG*

    Is higher ed really that weird? In this community there are a lot of comments that make it seem like higher ed is just a world apart, that all bets about reasonable expectations are off. But we see all sorts of bizarro stuff from public, corporate, and non-profit workplaces too. I’ve only been in higher ed since college, but I’d love to hear from people who have a basis for comparison. Is higher ed really that weird? And if so, why?

    1. merp*

      Application process, maybe, but even that would depend on where in higher ed, I think. As far as job issues, I think everywhere has their own weirdness.

    2. Anonymeece*

      (I’m staff at a higher ed) Sometimes it can be, but like everywhere else, it also depends on the workplace.

      The application process is definitely very different from private hiring, for sure. The main difference that I see is that higher ed tends to be much more legal-bound. When we interview, we have to actually go through a training, it has to be a committee, you have to ask the same questions of every applicant (to the point that some people are afraid of asking specific questions about someone’s application, like, “It says here on your resume you were ‘on the lam from the coppers’ for a year. Can you tell us more about that?”), etc.

      This extends to everyday work. A LOT of stuff that would be in the purview of a single department for private ends up in a committee. There’s also a very clear divide at most higher ed places between “faculty” and “staff”, which has its own unpleasantness. When I worked in corporate, there could be “cliques” but never this superiority complex like I’ve seen at my present workplace. Depending on the institution, faculty can also get away with a ton of stuff that wouldn’t fly in corporate. We had someone from corporate come in as a dean, and he literally stopped a meeting and told a faculty member in front of everyone, “We don’t talk to people like that” because of some of the stuff being said.

      All this said, it’s weird, sure, but I don’t think better/worse. I’ve worked in corporate and in higher ed, and the problems are just different.

  151. Lizziebeth730*

    I work for a gov’t agency and we are all unionized.

    We have a big team of nearly 100 people and we’ve been regionalized. There are 2 supervisors and 10 employees in my office.

    One of the supervisors has been an issue for a while. Prior to his arrival in our office he was dividing the team… he had told people I was a snake who wasn’t to be trusted. That the other supervisor wasn’t good at his job, not responsive etc. Someone let me know he told people I didn’t get an interview for a different position. I let them know that I didn’t get that interview, and wasn’t expecting to, as I never applied. Over the past year the team has slowly moved to be more united – an us against him situation. Everyone has realized that if his lips are moving he’s lying and everyone has been in the situation where he has negatively talked about them to someone else and it’s gotten back to them. To make matters worse, he’s having an affair with someone in our department and we have to work with his wife as a contractor. We all adore his wife and are really sick of being put in the position of lying to her. He creates a problem out of thin air and then provides a terrible solution. When he’s faced with pushback by staff he tells us that we’re “being unnecessarily resistant to change” It ends up working out for us in a really backhanded way.. example: ” Supervisors* have had a discussion regarding vacation time. It is concerning that some individuals are always requesting the same high demand days off and that is unfair to others. As such we will not be approving vacation time until 3 days prior” (* I have several friends who are supervisors who flat out deny that this was a conversation that ever took place.) As a result of this, we have all read our contracts and contacted our union rep and the answer is “seniority rules” and now we’re doing passive aggressive stuff like anyone who has been at the agency longer than him has now requested off day after Thanksgiving, and Christmas Eve and New Years Eve etc. And we’ll release them back the day before. Letting other staff know that we’re not going to need them and to request them as back ups, that we’re doing this to prevent him from taking the days.

    We are all afraid of retaliation by this individual.

    We’re looking for advice – we’ve gone to management, we’ve gone to the union… its basically impossible to get someone fired. We’re sort of screwed.

    We

    1. Colette*

      Can you find another job? Because the energy you’re spending into getting back at him is not going to help you, in the long run. It would be better to get out to a place where you don’t have to deal with him.

  152. ClashRunner*

    I’m working on my 90-day self-evaluation and a lot of the questions are along the lines of “What tools do you need to grow? What are your areas of strength? What do you want to work on?” I’m an EA/Office Manager. Other than taking the question very literally and talking about some of the apps we use to manage workflow, what are some suggestions for these answers?

    1. AccountantWendy*

      Take it literally. What tools do you need to grow? “Well, investing in Docusign integration with Salesforce would enable me to spend less time on X and more time on Y.”.

      “Automating process Y would save me 10 hours a week, which would enable me to spend more time on Z.”

      If there are specific skills you want to acquire (Excel, project management, Adobe, a second language) that are job relevant, you could also put down those. Or if you need training on something. But otherwise, use this opportunity to identify process improvements that will save you time, by pointing out what other, more valuable thing you could be doing with that time.

    2. JanetM*

      90 days seems short for asking those sorts of questions, but if it were me, I’d try to think about things like do I need more or less communication than I’m getting? Do I need more training on the fiddly little bits of the workflow apps? Are there conferences / trainings I want to attend? Organizations I want to join? Certifications I want to attain? Projects I want to take on?

      And then I’d look at what I see as my strengths in this context, and what things I might want to improve or change. For example, I just had my mid-year review, and my lowest score (which was still “fully meets expectations”) was on decision-making; my manager said I make good decisions but he’d like to see me stretch for creative solutions to problems. So in my comments I said something about working on that.

      I recently listened to what might be a useful (free, about one hour) webinar from Office Dynamics about ways to become more of a strategic partner with your executive and to take on meatier assignments: Overworked But Underutilized: Go From Order Taker to Cognitive Being. https://officedynamics.com/overworked-but-underutilized/ (I will note that when I logged this on my “accomplishments” document, I made sure to note that I feel neither overworked nor underutilized, but wanted to learn more about the mindset!)

  153. JaniceMayhem*

    Not sure if this should be today or tomorrow. I was invited to my boss’s child’s wedding but am not attending. Etiquette states send a present when you’ve been invited. But gifts flow down not up – although it’s my boss’s kid and not my actual boss. So gift or no?

    2. Anonymeece*

      I think in this case, it would be perfectly acceptable to buy a nice card and write a thoughtful congratulations note in lieu of a gift.

    4. The New Wanderer*

      Unless you have a separate personal relationship with the boss’ child, a nice card is totally appropriate. (Even with a personal relationship a gift isn’t actually required, just more typically given.)

    5. Bagpuss*

      Etiquette doesn’t require a gift just because you are invited,
      If you know the kid personally, and like them, and want to give them a gift, it’s fine for you to chose to send one, but unless you specifically want to, you don’t need to.
      Send a card

    6. Coverage Associate*

      I don’t think my mother’s employees gave us wedding presents. My mother certainly didn’t ask what they gave us.

    7. Clisby*

      I’ve never heard of any etiquette rule that says you’re supposed to send a gift if you’re invited. Or, really, any etiquette rule that says you have to send a gift even if you attend.

  154. Jean*

    Any genetic engineers in the house? Or anyone working in support of genetic engineering (in greenhouses, aquaculture ponds, bacterial culturing factories, data entry even)? I’m curious about your day-to-day routine, what education you needed, surprising things people don’t know about the field, common pitfalls for new/aspiring workers, unusual support roles, where the big job growth is (both in terms of physical location and specialty), anything you can give me!

    I’ve been fascinated by genetics since I was a teen, and since I don’t know what to major in, I thought something to do with genetic engineering would be a good place to start. I’m starting with a community college and then moving to a 4-year. I’m not sure if I want to work in a lab pipetting billions of test tubes every day, but even if that isn’t my style, I imagine someone has to care for the engineered plants/animals/bacteria. I’d prefer not to work for a company like Monsanto (though if I had to I might, and I’d like to hear about the experience of anyone who has), but I would love to contribute to the field in some way, even if I’m not the one doing the “engineering” part.

    1. Emily*

      Just wanted to say I was also a teen fascinated by genetic engineering! I ended up majoring in biomedical engineering, which wasn’t really what I thought it would be like. I wanted to do a lot more with cells, but our curriculum ended up being mostly physics-based (like for designing medical devices).

      I now work on the business side for a company where I get to evaluate lots of different technologies in the medical space, although I’m not hands on in a lab.

      Looking back, if I’d wanted to get more hands-on with genetics, I probably would have majored in something like Microbiology or Biology + a lot of cell biology classes. Regardless of your major, it would be a good idea to reach out to companies/labs you might be interested in working at and looking for internships there. That way, you can get a better idea of what classes and experiences would be useful.

    2. Fikly*

      I was also a teen fascinated by genetics! The love has stayed with me, and I am seriously considering pursuing a masters in genetic counseling.

      Besides the interesting job, some pros are that the end degree is only a masters, there is a huge supply versus demand problem (a few years back, there were twice as many jobs posted nationwide as new graduates) leading to high salaries, to the point where your degree will cost less than your first years salary, and your masters degree will qualify you for any sub-specialty in the field – you specialize through experience, not education, and it is possible (if getting more challenging) to change sub-specialties mid-career. You can also work in a hospital, for private companies, or from home.

  155. GigglyPuff*

    Put my first note on the vending machines at work!
    We finally got credit card readers on our vending machines, except I realized they were charging a fee when I used my card. It doesn’t say that anywhere on the machine. So put some sticky’s on there, probably won’t last, but yay sharing information.

    1. valentine*

      You might want to call the service number to confirm they’re the ones assessing the fee.

  156. Anonymeece*

    A more general question:

    I’ve got student loans, a mortgage, and am the sole provider for my boyfriend and I; I can’t afford to take any risks right now, but I feel stuck in my current career. I have been actively searching, but not having much luck (always a finalist, never the hire). Part of me wants to just chuck it all in without a plan and move somewhere else to start over, but I realize this is a Very Bad Idea and am not brave enough to actually do it.

    When you felt stuck in your career and couldn’t find a new job, what did you do? How’d you get “unstuck”?

    1. Colette*

      First of all, are you sure you can’t take risks? I mean, if you really wanted to, could you sell your house and move? Could your boyfriend take over as the main breadwinner?

      But assuming you want to stay where you are, can you change up your life outside of work? Take up a new hobby, volunteer with a group you’re excited about, write the book you’ve been thinking about?

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      I’ve been in various parts of this situation at different times. Some things that might help:
      1) Why are you the sole provider? Are you okay with that? Can your boyfriend pick up at least part-time work to contribute to expenses?
      2) Is there a way to pick up side projects/freelance work in your chosen field, while working full-time in your current job? I’ve done this and I was working A LOT, but I was able to build valuable experience that eventually helped me land a full-time position.

  157. Anon526*

    I’m interested in hearing how people handle this at work. My daughter has several severe, potential life-threatening food allergies. In my job, it’s not uncommon to go out to eat with our customers, especially to take them out for meals if they are visiting our facility. I also travel a fair bit, which leaves me eating in restaurants (sometimes in foreign countries), or again going out for working meals with customers. My daughter isn’t old enough to realize all this, but I would love some suggestions I can discuss with her when she’s older for how she could manage similar situations in the future if she has a job with a similar culture.

    1. MatKnifeNinja*

      I have an anaphylactic shellfish allergy and survived 3 months in Japan.

      People follow your lead. If you make it a scary big deal, people treat it as such.

      I find dodging booze a bigger hassle than my food allergies. I don’t enjoy drinking, and people are much more nosey about that why, than I can’t eat shell fish or tree nuts

  158. Jazzyisanon*

    I feel super stuck. I’m a claims adjuster, and I’m burned out. Past the level of just taking a vacation. The 50-60 weeks is feeling overwhelming. I got so bad I even asked to take a demotion to get to something less stressful. I’ve applied to hundreds of places but gotten nothing back. Is there a reputable place to have my resume tweaked?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      There’s no service I’d ever suggest for you to tweak your resume for you.

      Have you had someone that you know in an HR or hiring position look at your resume to give you some advice? That’s usually the best place to start and then to use the tips and tricks you’ll find with AAM. Please don’t let anyone take your money to make your resume for you, you’ll hear horror stories around here even about people who did this and it’s a mess and a waste [these people will straight out lie on your resume and when you say “that’s not right” they go “oh but it looks better this way and everyone lies a little on their resumes!”] Ick!

      Your burnout may be one reason why you’re not getting calls. Are you looking for places that are within your industry or are you trying to escape insurance? That could be part of it, despite having a great resume, if you’re not looking to stay within the same area, it’s often the first resume to be weeded out.

      How are you doing on your cover letters? That is more critical. Are you using canned letters over and over again or are you doing fresh letters tailored to each position? If you’re just sending out resumes rapid fire without much thought to your cover letter or a very generic one, it won’t make you stand out among the crowd.

      1. Jazzyisanon*

        I try to write unique and interesting cover letters. I think part of the problem is that I’m trying to get out of insurance

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Yes, the change in industry will lead to the non-response more so than your resume being an issue!

          I’m sorry that you’re going through this, it’s awful and my heart goes out to you. Working those hours in that kind of demanding atmosphere is exhausting. You will escape one way or another. have you thought of downsizing to something like a small local insurance company as a transition period? Sometimes it’s the scope and size of the job you’re doing, a smaller office may give you more breathing room?

    2. we're basically gods*

      I’ve been using Alison’s advice, and then taking advantage of resume rewriting services online that offer a free initial consultation, taking their automated feedback on my resume, and then unsubscribing from their mailing list. There’s enough such services out there that I haven’t come close to running out of free parsing.

  159. SaltStocks*

    Would it be OK to send a clarification email after the interview and sending my references? The clarification would be on what exactly I’m applying for because this is an interesting scenario.

    Alpaca Company posted on Indeed about Job A (office assistant – no wage listed) which I applied for and got a callback for. At the time that I set up my interview date, I saw that Alpaca Company also posted Job B (entry data person – $17/hr) which seemed cool but I wasn’t sure if I was qualified for it.

    I was supposed to interview with Bob but Bob emailed me, stating that he had a meeting and could only spend 10 minutes with me. So Jane was supposed to join and move on with my interview in Bob’s place, after Bob leaves for the meeting.

    I met Jane (head honcho of operations) first and spoke with her for 10-15 minutes, with some light questioning. Later, Bob joined us and didn’t ask me much other than whether I’m good at XYZ and if I could send him my references. Once Bob left, I was just with Jane since the position would be under her department and continued my interview (it was pretty much a conversation with some questions at this point).

    However, one thing stuck out to me – Jane casually mentioned that this position would earn me “around $30-something thousand, so about $17 an hour I believe?” when we were alone after Bob had left. Which led me to wonder whether I was still being consider for Job A… or did they change me to Job B? It didn’t help that Jane’s description of the job seemed more in line with the Job B descriptions.

    And now I’m confused because Bob is still my main contact with this company. I sent Bob my references and thanked him for his time during the interview, but I didn’t ask for a timeline or clarification on what role I’m being considered for. I last contacted Bob on Tuesday so would it be OK to send another email, asking for clarification on my job title because of what Jane said? Or would it be better to wait to hear back from Bob, after he checks my references? I was so concerned about looking like an idiot because I really liked the company but now I feel like I shot myself in the foot ugh.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I have a two part answer to this.

      One, to the question you actually asked: Don’t contact them again. Did you explicitly tell them you were interested in Job B? If not, and if they didn’t explicitly tell you they were thinking about it, they’re probably only considering you for Job A, the one you applied for.

      Also, Tuesday was only a couple of days ago! I know it feels like forever, but honestly they’ve barely had time to call your references, let alone making a hiring decision. If they want to hire you, they will absolutely let you know, and you can ask your questions at that point.

      BUT, I have a second part, to a question that you didn’t actually ask. I hate to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but I would be a bit wary about this one. The fact that Bob asked for references after only interviewing you for 10 minutes, and without consulting with Jane, seems a bit odd to me. Also the fact that you left the interview without a clear idea of what the job actually is. These are not necessarily huge red flags – it could be that they were just exceptionally busy and/or disorganized on that particular day. But I would definitely take this as a cue to ask lots of questions before you accept.

      First, you want to be absolutely clear on what work you would be doing, and how much you would be getting paid. Do not under any circumstances accept the job until you have this information! And you should also find out more about what it’s like to work there. How much turnover is there, for this position and generally? How much day-to-day contact will you have with Bob, as opposed to Jane? How do decisions normally get made?

      As I said, it may be that everything is fine, or that you’re fine with the way they operate. But just based on this one really disorganized interview process, I would want to be really sure of what I’m walking into before I accepted the job. Good luck!

  160. meka*

    Talked with my manager a month ago asking to go from daily 30 min meetings to a weekly hour meeting. I also let her know that if I need anything/she needs anything there’s email and we’re also like a foot away so we can communicate easily. It had been going well for about a week before Grand Boss got a whiff of this. Now I have daily meetings AND 2 weekly meetings.

    I work by myself and my manager helps manage my projects. I asked to cut back on the meetings because since I’m project-based, I rarely had any substantial daily updates and if I had any hurdles I would just tell my boss then and there. I’m so frustrated because my I cut back on meetings to save time but that’s been subverted and now I have even more. Grand Boss said that communication is key and daily meetings are mandatory for everyone in the office. Ugh.

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      Good grief, no wonder you don’t have anything to share at these meetings – you never have enough time between them to get any work done!

    2. AdAgencyChick*

      Ugh, gross.

      I’d talk to your direct boss about it in the spirit of, “What do you think is driving Grandboss wanting all these meetings? Do you think there’s a way we can make her feel less anxious without having 7 meetings a week?” And if you have any ideas for how to accomplish that, bring those to the table. Maybe a quick email every day containing whatever you would have discussed at the meeting?

      Basically, some managing up is required, but since it’s not your direct boss, I think you need your direct boss to help. I have a feeling she’ll be on your side given that she was down with the plan to walk away from daily meetings, and might have some ideas on how to manage up to HER boss.

    3. Colette*

      Do the meetings have to be 30 minutes? I.e., can you meet, say “nothing to report today, everything is going well” and get back to work?

      1. meka*

        They don’t necessarily have to be 30 minutes, but I also can’t just say that there’s nothing new. I have to say what I accomplished yesterday, what I plan to do today, and if there’s anything I’m stuck on. My manager needs that because that’s partially what her daily meetings with GrandBoss are about. GrandBoss has daily meetings with the managers where they basically update him on what everyone’s doing.

        1. Colette*

          OK, but as someone who runs 4 meetings of that format daily, that’s … 30 seconds, if all is well? I get updates from an entire team in usually about 5 minutes. So give your boss the 30 second update and then go back to work – don’t feel like you need to have a long meeting when it’s not warranted.

          1. valentine*

            Send her an email so that you really have nothing to say in the meeting. Maybe she will start to feel the waste of time.

          2. LQ*

            Yeah, this is just an agile stand up meeting. Though generally you’d have them with the project team you’re a part of, if you’re the only person on your project I suppose your boss. Make them quick and move on. You’re likely investing more stress and time talking about them than you need to. Someone higher up is making a hard push for “Lets be more agile!” don’t worry, a new flavor of the month will come along soon enough and it will change.

        2. Kat in VA*

          Oh, man, talk about death by meetings. I agree with other posters – if these are supposed to be Agile standup meetings, they’re definitely doing them wrong if they’re 30 minutes PER employee.

  161. Burned Biscuits*

    What do you do when you apply for a job, they email you to interview and then slide in “by the way, the salary range is XX-YY”, which happens to be more than 25% LESS than your previous salary? If I’d known that to begin with I wouldn’t have applied.
    I left my previous job at the end of May. I’ve been enjoying my summer and working through some contract jobs. I was excited about this company because they appear to have good values (important in my field) and my best friend is well-acquainted with someone there (she taught his kids and they’re in a similar circle). The job is fairly close to my previous job but I was absolutely shocked at the low range. Their list of qualifications and skills is definitely in the mid-senior range but the salary is in the 1-2yrs of total work experience range.
    I agreed to the interview…maybe there’s a bonus or major growth potential? But…any other advice?

    1. CAA*

      As the interviewer, I’d appreciate an email response that said something like “Thank you for sending over the salary range for this position. Based on my experience level and job postings for similar roles in this area, I’m looking for something in the range of $x to $y. Would it still make sense for me to interview given that we’re so far apart on this?”

      Why waste your time or theirs? If they decide not to interview you for this role, you can always ask them to keep you in mind if they have future openings at a more senior level.

      1. The New Wanderer*

        This. You can add “I’ve given it more thought” to the beginning if you feel awkward about emailing a second time after accepting the interview, but get it out there before you spend more time on this one.

    2. Hillary*

      The one time this happened to me it was over the phone with the HR person during a screen. I basically said, umm, that’s not in the range for people with these qualifications and experience in this market. She sighed and basically said I know, but that’s what the hiring manager wanted. I withdrew at that point.

  162. Hey-eh*

    People in small offices: how do you handle coffee?

    We’re an office of 12 and have a Nespresso machine but half the office doesn’t like the coffee so they’re considering changing. But they want something easy to use and low maintenance (i.e. no one is going to remember to clean it regularly). I suggested just getting a percolator and when you take the last cup you make a new pot, but that was shot down. Is there some kind of solution we’re not considering? Tassimo and Keurig were also both shot down.

    1. niche job albatross*

      We had a drip coffee pot, but struggled to get the timing right for brewing. Keurig was a godsend. Everyone brings in their own. I have a nespresso in my office for my picky tastes. If they don’t like the coffee, maybe they need to just buy better pods?

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      You can get 8- or even 12-cup French presses (cafetieres) so you’d literally need a hot water kettle and a bag of grounds. The filter and pot just needs rinsing under the tap each time, and then you stick it in the dishwasher at night. Low cost and low waste.

      1. Elizabeth West*

        Get an unbreakable one (says the slightly dyspraxic person who has broken three presses in the last two years).

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      We have a Keurig, why did they get shot down?

      They sound like they aren’t interested in a real solution if they’re just saying “no, no, not that either.”

      Everything will require some sort of maintenance and cleaning. Just do away with company coffee and tell people to bring their own in if they want it. That’s what we did when only a couple people drank coffee out of our small office prior.

      You don’t have an office manager of some sort that can clean the thing? I clean stuff I don’t actually use because it’s just on a schedule, it’s just part of my routine. It’s pretty much a never solved problem if nobody absorbs the task just because “wah I dun wanna it’s not my job”. Cool then we can’t have nice things, bring it yourself, end of story.

      1. Hey-eh*

        It’s because some people want espresso, and some people want “regular” coffee.

        I personally don’t drink coffee very often (maybe once a month as a treat) so I don’t care, but it’s one of the VPs that’s always bringing in her own coffee that doesn’t like the Nespresso. What they want is one of the machines that grinds the beans and does a single cup or a pot and has the milk canister for making specialty coffees BUT no one is willing to clean it. We don’t have an office manager whose duties it would fall under and no one will step up and take responsibility.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Whomever wants the fancy stuff has to step up to clean it or cut their dream balloon loose. I would bow out of this conversation in general and just say “you all sort it out, no pony in this race!” just to save yourself the headache.

          They’re in a pissing match it sounds like, someone has to make a GD decision. The VP should probably be the one who does that, since it’s time to “sh*t or get off the pot” so to speak!

          It’s possible when you’re that small of an operation to just add a duty to someone’s to-do list. Do you have any assistants or an intern? Do you have cleaners or a janitorial setup? You can pay a bit extra to add that to the things they clean in the office.

          There’s no way to not change someone’s duties, deal with a dirty gross setup or paying the cleaning crew more to get something “nice” you know.

      2. Clisby*

        I love the concept of a Keurig (and have one one at home), but have never found pods that make anything even close to strong enough coffee. (At home, I have the reusable pods I can load with Cafe Bustelo expresso blend, and that’s pretty good.) Really, for an office, I’d rather bring my own instant – it’s almost certainly going to be better than the office coffee. Especially since you can get Cafe Bustelo instant coffee as well.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          We have a pod to fill if anyone wanted to bring their own blend but that would mean that someone would have to clean their pod in between uses is all.

          Nobody here cares enough, coffee is just to get us through the day, I get whatever is on sale and people can choose to use it or they can bring their own, either own pods or own beans and grind them if they want to bring their grinder as well, duncur, do what you want. But yeah there’s still clean up.

          Keurig’s still have to be cleaned routinely. Believe me. I have seen moldy water reservoirs , it’s so awful and yet people still just let it do it’s thing.

    4. AvonLady Barksdale*

      Yeah, I’m also kind of confused as to why the Keurig got shot down. The system is pretty similar to the Nespresso and you have the option of refillable cups (not sure if you can do that with a Nespresso, but I’ve never seen one where you could) and getting your own at the grocery store. My office is pretty small and we have a Keurig. Now that I WFH full-time, I make cold brew concentrate and drink that, and I used to bring it into work in a bottle that I kept in the fridge.

      “Half the office” can bring in their own french presses or pour-over systems or whatever they want to use. Might be the best option.

    5. Mediamaven*

      We have a Jura. They are VERY expensive but in the long run I believe more cost effective. You don’t use pods so better for the environment, you can make one cup at a time, and the coffee is delicious! No waste! Just buy beans!

    6. Jaid*

      Sigh, Medaglia D’Oro Espresso Instant Coffee is actually pretty good, if the VP wants espresso. Get a Keurig and use it for hot water, pods or even the refillable pods.

      *Note, I got whole coffee beans, ground a couple of ounces at a time and bring that into work to put into my refillable pod. It is super fresh and I can even drink it black.

  163. No Longer Indefinite Contract Attorney*

    An opportunity came out of the sky and has very quickly moved to the stage of reference checks. Since I have been very casually applying and getting no traction for several months, I hadn’t given my references advanced notice. The recruiter just asked today for references, so I’d like to provide them quickly, but also want to give my references a heads up. These are all people who have been references for me in the past. Would this be an appropriate email to send them? We’ve always kept in touch via e-mail, so I think that’s less awkward than a phone call.
    “Hi [reference],
    Hope you’re doing well. When last we spoke you mentioned X, [insert some kind of follow up/ask about work/ask about family.]
    I’m sorry for the short notice, but I had an unexpected opportunity fall into my lap for a new position, and it has moved quickly. They want to check references, so I planned to provide your contact information. Please let me know if this would not work for you.
    I wish you all the best and an enjoyable end to a very hot summer!
    Thank you!
    NLICA”

    My only issue is, I’m concerned that I’ll feel obligated to wait for an affirmative response before sending the references to the recruiter, and I’d like to move quickly on it as well. So any language to suggest that is appreciated as well!

    1. Matilda Jefferies*

      I did that exact thing last week! Your wording is great. The only thing I would suggest is sending your resume and the job description along with that initial email, to save time. Normally you’d send the docs after your references agree to be contacted, but under the circumstances it’s totally fine. Good luck!

    2. Rex*

      I get that you are excited and they are moving quickly, but trust me, they can wait until Monday for your references. Just say you are confirming that the contact info is so good. Then send the note you wrote.

    3. Kiki*

      I was in this situation for my current job! I explained the situation to the recruiter and emailed my potential references right away asking for confirmation. I gave the references to the recruiter as they responded so they didn’t have to wait too long to get started and have some confirmation I am not a terror to work with. It didn’t seem to be an issue and I have the job!

  164. Carquals 0816 Niner Zero Two*

    Leadership is…

    Not downsizing the office space and not having a plan despite announcing 6 weeks ago this could be a possibility.

    Not sending your employees an email on Saturday night about their moving offices on Monday.

    Not having enough offices for all the staff especially not one assigned to the coworker on maternity leave

    Not believing an office, carved out of a work/storage room, is an appropriate office option.

    Not telling a coworker, who will return from maternity leave and gets the makeshift office space without a door or privacy, that she should use the hot bathroom lounge to pump when someone is always in there on the phone or kids are playing around.

    Leadership is ensuring none of this happens – ever.
    Leadership is planning for the wellness of your employees.
    Leadership is hard. If you can’t – don’t

  165. Kat*

    My work-bestie just got a job offer at another company and will be a manager for the first time. I would like to get her a book as a congratulations. What is your top-pick for a person transitioning from individual contributor to entry-level manager?

    Thanks!

    1. Anonymeece*

      I actually recommended the AAM book to someone who recently transitioned into a new manager role. It really helped me as I started my career (not to suck up…) and my employee who transitioned found it really helpful.

      1. SarahKay*

        Seconding the AAM book. I would have done so much better as a manager if I’d known about this website. I wasn’t awful as a manager (and long-term it still wouldn’t have been the right job for me) but I would have been so much better with all of Alison’s advice from this website / her book.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      The AAM book is excellent and I recommend it too. If your friend is becoming a sales manager I’d recommend David Brock’s excellent book “Sales Manager Survival Guide: Lessons from Sales’ Front Lines”

  166. Scout*

    Happy Friday everyone! I had an awesome interview today, and the hiring manager is bringing me in Monday to meet more of the team, and she says she plans to have a decision made a week from today. My question: I met several people today. On Monday, if I run into this problem, is it a huge faux-pas to say something like, “I’m sorry, I met so many people here on Friday. Could you remind me of your name?” Or is there a better way to say that?

    1. AccountantWendy*

      I think your wording is fine! Most people understand that when you’re meeting a lot of new people it takes a little bit of time to remember names. If you happen to recognize the face but not the name, I might switch it up to “I enjoyed meeting you on Friday” or something else to indicate you didn’t forget the person (just their name).

      1. Scout*

        Oh, that’s a good idea! I like making sure they know I didn’t forget meeting them specifically. Thanks!

    2. CAA*

      It’s not a faux pas to ask for their names a second time and your phrasing is fine. Try not to ask a third time until after you’ve started the job!

  167. Em*

    How do you know when it’s time to quit?

    I work in an industry where One Does Not Quit. It’s an extremely close-knit field, everyone knows each other and people get jobs on the strength of their personal relationships. I thought the job I had now was my dream job. But there’s been a series of occurrences that make me desperately wishing I never came here.

    One of my coworkers has begun verbally harassing and bullying me. Nothing physical, violent, or sexual, but he’s screamed at me on conference calls and made bizarre accusations against my character. I reported it to my boss, who promised me he’d do something about it. It’s two weeks later and the guy still hasn’t been fired.

    Today, I learned I’d been passed over for a promotion. I didn’t apply because (a) I didn’t know they were even considering promoting from within and (b) I thought I was underqualified for the job (and I am! Really! All the other organizations in my field have hired someone more qualified than me for similar jobs). But the man they hired is less qualified for me. He has less experience (by a LOT) and doesn’t have a record of getting results. Yeah, I’m a woman.

    I really don’t know what to do. I’m a manager, and I love my team – I’d hate to leave them on their own. Knowing this company’s hiring practices, I’m sure whoever replaced me would be terrible. But I’m lonely, depressed and it seems like 90% of my energy goes into fighting battles above my head. This promotion situation just seems like a slap in the face. How am I supposed to report to someone who used to joke to me about how bad he was at his job?

    1. Colette*

      There’s a bunch of stuff here.

      First of all, “doing something about it” does not necessarily mean firing the guy. Is he still screaming at you and otherwise treating you badly? If so, go back to your manager and let him know it’s still happening.

      Secondly, if you don’t apply for a promotion, you aren’t (usually) going to get it. I don’t think gender has anything to do with it; you didn’t say you wanted it, so they assumed you didn’t want it. Can you take the lesson that you should go after jobs you want even if you don’t think you’ll get them?

      And you report to him by staying professional, doing your job, and expecting him to do his.

      1. Colette*

        Or yes, you can quit – and if you feel like it’s time to move on, that’s OK, too. (Assuming, of course, that you have been there a reasonable amount of time.)

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If you ever have a constant feeling of being lonely, depressed and you’re constantly fighting losing battles, it’s time to move on.

      You won’t always be pleased with work. You won’t always get your way. You will have to weather some storms and such. But overall your work shouldn’t be something you dread or is eating away at your physical or mental well being. You should feel valued and respected, even when there are disagreements or muddy waters.

      Stop letting your love for your team hold you hostage. I did this. I was burnt and done but my love for the people kept me roasting myself further. They were happy when I cut the cord because they knew it was for the best. Anyone who didn’t see that I was drowning and had to finally swim from shore isn’t of much importance in the long run, the majority really cared about my overall well being more than having to deal with transition into a new setup.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      As someone who’s job hopped a bit, I think there is a point where you decide you just can’t stick it out any longer. Some of my signs are below, and I look for several being met before I leave.

      >Company taking decided bad financial turns
      >Company headcutting and layoffs
      >No budget to accomplish your given goals
      >Feeling pushed-out, excluded, passed-over, or denied needed information to do your job
      >Excessive bullying or harassing
      >DREADING going in to work on Monday, and this feeling starts Friday night
      >A demotion in title or forced reduction of duties
      >Write-ups out of the blue for no sane or logical reason (as with the one OP below who HR claimed was waltzing or flaunting herself).
      >Untenable work hours or commutes
      >Unethical business practices

      I think in your case, you didn’t ask for the promotion so they thought you weren’t interested. As for the screaming coworker, if he is the only one, the problem is really his. If he hasn’t changed, speak to your manager about the situation again. But if you otherwise like your job, don’t let one asshole spoil it for you. Usually, leaving involves multiple things that lead to the dread and unhappiness.

  168. SqueakyWheel*

    How do you organize for change in your workplace?
    I work in a non-unionized factory which has an extremely limited time off policy. Most employees start at 10 days of paid time off, and there is no division between “vacation” and sick time. Any absence from work must be covered with paid time off. The increases in time off accrued are marginal (after 2 years of service you earn 1 additional day per year until you reach 3 weeks at the beginning of your 6th year of service).

    I would like to advocate my employer change the policy to grant more paid time off, or to keep the paid time off the same but grant everyone 40 hours a year of sick time. I have no idea where to even begin with that. We don’t have a suggestion box or an open door policy in HR, and a big change like this needs to come from a group of employees. How do you take it from “employees complaining about a policy” to “employees advocating for better benefits”?
    For a bit of additional context, the factory employs over 200 factory employees and more than 50 administrative employees. Many of the factory employees are people with limited English language skills, and many are immigrants who may not wish to rock the boat regardless of whether they are citizens, green card holders, etc. Wages aren’t higher than the average for our area; there aren’t a lot of benefits or perks and we only get 7 holidays, so it doesn’t feel like “oh, we have crummy benefits but get paid a lot more than working some place else.”

    I do trust my employer is in compliance with labor laws – it’s not that my factory is a terrible place to work. We just have terrible time off policies.

    1. LCL*

      Start with as much hard information as you can gather.
      Have concrete goals. Do you want sick time added, or one pot of PTO? You should read the archives of this blog to see the ramifications of both types of policies. I favor adding sick time, but many others favor the PTO model. Once you understand how each could work, start talking to the employees who will talk and see what they favor.
      Try to get some understanding of how your office administers pay and leave. It is to your group’s advantage to have an answer when management asks ‘how are we going to start tracking that?’. In some places this information is never shared with the production people.
      When you talk to management, be clear about what you are asking for. Figure out how the company and management will benefit from your proposal. Perhaps you are losing good trained people who use up their leave being sick or having sick relatives, so they are terminated for attendance but weren’t problem employees. How much does it cost to hire and train a new employee before they are productive? What is your factory’s retention rate compared to similar in the area?
      If you add sick leave, 40 hours/year is 1.53 hours per pay period, based on 80 hours pay periods, with 26 pay periods per year. How would the policy work? Would everyone be awarded all 40 at the same time each year? How much can employees accrue? Would you allow sick leave for a part of the day-I highly recommend yes.
      Be aware that people will have good ideas, and demands, but when it comes to actually talking to management they will disappear, claim they never said that or don’t remember, etc.
      Good on you for trying this. Negotiation can be tough work. I have done it in a union environment, and liked it, but it can go slow. Don’t put your job in jeopardy. If you want to go the union route, your local labor organizations may be able to help you, but be prepared for a long bitter fight with management.

  169. cool4cats*

    Thoughts on quitting on your manager’s birthday?
    I got offered my dream job thanks to AAM’s help (yay!) but they wanted me to start ASAP. And I wanted to start ASAP because my current workplace is super dysfunctional (manager barely there, coworkers call off all the time, work gets left undone, etc). The problem was, in order to put in my two weeks and start ASAP, I would have had to quit on my manager’s birthday. She may not always be the best manager, but she’s not an awful person, and I felt like it was rude to do this. After some panicking back and forth, I waited until the day after, giving her slightly less notice.
    As a manager, which would you prefer?

      1. valentine*

        Don’t worry about their birthday. There could well be a different day that means more to them, that you’ll never know about. Do what works for you and let people, especially managers, worry about themselves.

    2. irene adler*

      As a manager, I would have preferred as much notice as possible.
      Birthday has nothing to do with it.

    3. The New Wanderer*

      Generally I would say more notice > notice on birthday.

      However, it may depend on why you know it’s the manager’s birthday. I’ve had many, many managers and I don’t know when any of their birthdays are, but I’ve also never worked anywhere with a “birthday celebrating” culture, so only one or two managers ever knew or acknowledged when my birthday was, either. So I could see where, if this manager is someone who makes enough of a deal of their birthday at the office that their direct reports are aware of it, and is also someone who isn’t 100% professional, they may react badly to bad news on that day. But that’s really the only case where it might matter at all, and that’s only to preserve your relationship with that specific manager.

    4. Clisby*

      Not a manager, but I’ve never had the faintest idea when any of my managers had a birthday. Even if I had, I can’t imagine it affecting when I gave my notice.

  170. wingmaster*

    Should job seekers never have to fly out to an interview at your own expense?

    The company who invited me for an in-person interview just sent me details about the scheduled interview, but did not mention anything about reimbursement or help scheduling flights/hotels. Of course, I’ll ask to confirm. It’s a really small company, but I always thought that the company should cover these expenses.

    Thoughts?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      If they are recruiting you, they should fly you out but if you’re just sending out your resume since you’re relocating or wouldn’t mind relocation, you should expect to pay for yourself.

      Did you just apply on your own or did they head hunt you? I always paid my travel accommodations when I looked for jobs elsewhere but I was relocating and I was trying to woo them, they could have went ahead and found people who were within their own areas if they wanted to dig around.

        1. Not a Real Giraffe*

          Agree with TMBL. Unless your role is super-super senior or super-super niche or it’s the norm for your particular industry, the company is unlikely to pay for your travel unless they were the ones who actively reached out to recruit you.

        2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          It’ll depend on the industry and how high demand you/your skills are to them.

          Honestly it’s nice that they even talked to you and went this far in general, lots wont’ even bother with out of area folks but when they do decide to talk it’s usually because you’re high quality but not necessarily high enough quality to spring for the plane ticket and lodging accommodations.

          It depends on industry as well though and as Not a Real Giraffe mentions, the role itself. If you’re going for an executive role or niche position, then they invest more in recruiting. Otherwise they’re not going to roll out more budget for this position just because they like you a bit more than the local options.

    2. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’ve seen it happen both ways. I worked with a client that was hiring their first employee in a remote location and they elected to have the candidate book their own airfare/hotel so they candidate could collect any rewards and choose their hotel/carrier/arrival time. The client agreed to write a check to the candidate after the conclusion of the interview that day after the candidate provided receipts. On higher end searches I’ve worked (C-Suite) the client will handle all travel arrangements once and send the candidate an itinerary.

  171. Mogula*

    Is it annoying if I repeat back something I’m told or if I try to summarize? I don’t have the best memory and don’t want to mess up, so I have a habit of repeating information or consolidating pieces together to make sure that I’m understanding things correctly.

    For example, manager wants me to send a document to Company A, an email to B, and a package to C. So I’ll repeat back, “OK, so I’ll send the doc to A; email to B; and package to C!” Or I’ll repeat back numbers that I’ve written down. Or if I’m given a bunch of steps from two different people, I’ll say “based on what Cersei and Jon have told me, I’ll be doing this….”

    I haven’t gotten any comments from my supervisors so far other than being known in the office as “detail-oriented” but I worry that this is unprofessional behavior? I’m a new grad working in entry level!

      1. Rex*

        Also totally a good idea — send a follow up email after the convo summarizing the takeaways. And then you have it in writing!

    2. Zombie Unicorn*

      This is fine so long as you’re also writing it down.

      If you’re not, then you need to be.

  172. lemon*

    How do you deal with a manager who talks over you all the time?

    My manager is *extremely* talkative. She’ll talk for 5-10 minutes straight without taking any pauses so there’s no natural spot for me to join the conversation. So, I found myself having to speak up to jump into the convo. The thing is, only 25% of the time will she notice I have something to say and let me speak. The other 75% of the time, she’ll just talk right over me. And the 25% of the time that I do get to talk, I’d say I maybe get 10 seconds before she starts talking again (often going off a totally unrelated tangent, but that’s another problem for another time).

    How do I manage this? I’m starting to feel really disrespected, and feel like I’m going to get fed up one day and say something snarky (which, obviously, would be bad).

    1. H.C.*

      I would start with the 25% of the time that you’re talking; right when she starts to talk or interrupt you, you can say “please let me complete my thought first.” Or if she’s going on a tangent, feel free to interrupt with something like “let’s go back to the matter of [relevant issue] . . .”

      Also, outside of other cues, I wouldn’t take it as disrespect per se. There are some work cultures or personalities that very “chime in whenever, otherwise I’ll keep going on” and others that are more “let’s give everyone a chance to speak”. But if there are other occasions where you feel like she’s not valuing your input, you can definitely bring it up with her at your next 1-on-1, performance eval, etc.

      Lastly, don’t take the conversation as the be all & end all, there’s been numerous times where I didn’t have anything to say at the moment because I am still processing everyone’s remarks, but would send a follow-up email with my own contributions, or bring it up at the beginning of the next meeting.

      1. lemon*

        I feel disrespected because when you talk over someone 75% of the time, that’s not a “chime in whenever” culture. That’s an “I talk, you listen,” culture. It’s not that I don’t feel my input isn’t valued– it’s that I don’t get the chance to have any sort of input in the first place because I’m not being allowed to speak for more than 10 seconds at a time. We’ve had hour-long conversations where the only thing I was able to say was “Yeah, that sounds good.”

        I’ll try saying things like “please let me finish,” and see if that helps a bit.

        1. valentine*

          I would address the big picture and find a polite way to say, “I literally can’t get a word in edgewise.”

    2. LQ*

      Is she open to interruption, it sounds like she isn’t but if you keep going does she stop? Is she expecting you to interrupt? If to her conversations are more of an overlapping thing then she may feel like you aren’t trying to speak up. If so try to manage the conversation by just sort of like overlapping what you want to say with her. Especially if you can see where she might be going. Jump in and “yeah, I totally see what and oranges are a super important fruit, which is why I think we need to move on the meat markets.” Jump in, overlay, move to what you need. Are those things related? NoooOOOoo! But this may work.

      If she has ever said “let me finish” you likely don’t want to do this. But if she is actually an overlapping speaker, jump in often and lean hard into a positive when you do, “oh absolutely right, you’re totally correct that fish are birds, absolutely, and we should really move on this Iowa project because of that, yup, you’re totally right.”

  173. dangling legs*

    Part Deuce:

    A few months ago, I posted my frustrations about not being able to reach the floor while sitting on the toilet seats at work and there were a few other fellow shorties who felt my pain. Unfortunately squatty pottys (have one at home, love it) were out because we really aren’t allowed to store anything on the bathroom floors and no place to hang anything. And I REALLY didn’t want to keep something by my desk like that and have to take it with me announcing to the whole office/customers on my way to the loo that I had to poo. BUTT! I found “solution”:

    https://www.amazon.com/Tip-Pee-Toe-Stool-Carrying/dp/B00ABLSQDG/ref=sr_1_3?crid=QVYL6BUCXKBL&keywords=tip+pee+toe+step+stool&qid=1565977949&s=gateway&sprefix=tip+pee%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-3

    It folds up small enough to fit in my purse/bag and while it doesn’t give the angles that a squatty potty might, it at least allows me more leverage then my dangling legs would normally provide, leaving all my problems behind. So I wanted to share, just in case anyone else finds them self in a similar situation :)

  174. Jaded/frustrated*

    I just started a new position in my company that is a HUGE step up for me in every way–department/office change, salary and title bump, etc. I’m so, so excited, but there is a part of me that is really struggling with something stupid from my former position that I can’t seem to get over.

    I had a very toxic coworker who was one cubicle over, and she terrorized/continues to terrorize my old department despite the myriad of complaints (formal and informal) against her. She is brash, inappropriate, over-sharing, and rude; an idea-stealing know-it-all who is obsessively jealous over praise and any sort of workflow suggestion. She has gotten in trouble with HR for showing us porn on her phones and talking in depth about her sex life, and she smokes weed in her car in the parking lot every two hours. My old manager protected her through every complaint because despite her flaws, she’s a hard worker, very knowledgeable, and thinks very creatively.

    Even though I’ve moved on to bigger and better things, I can’t shake this feeling of anger I still hold onto that she’s still there despite it all (people have been fired for much less). I think it’s because I still work indirectly with her and my old manager, but I just don’t know. Does anyone have any advice on how to let this go? My new position is simply fabulous, and my new team/manager are just excellent, so I know it’s not like the weird toxic atmosphere is here, too.

    1. Jaded/frustrated*

      I should mention, when this coworker found out I got the new position, she had an actual adult tantrum and spent the next week emailing connections in our new office asking them why I was suggesting for this position over her, and how she could move up, too. It’s like I can’t escape.

      1. WellRed*

        Well, take pleasure in knowing you not only made the right move, but that your former coworker has made herself unhireable at the new company because they will see her for the loon she is.

    2. Kathenus*

      My advice is to think about it from the perspective that you holding onto the anger is only hurting you, so you’re still giving her power over you even though you’ve moved on. She doesn’t care that you are angry, so don’t give her rent-free space in your head anymore. If you think about her, smile instead realizing that 1) you’re in a better place, and 2) she’s probably a pretty unhappy person overall to be like that.

  175. Scrimpie*

    I just received a formal warning, and am reeling. The warning was for “sexualized behavior in the workplace” – my boss said a few coworkers had complained I was “prancing” around the office and “flaunting” myself. I don’t even know what that means – I’m a heavyset middle-aged lady who is, by my own admission, a bit on the frumpy side; my clothes are squarely within the dress code but very conservative (full coverage, not at all clingy, mostly dark colors). I have minor mobility issues and couldn’t “prance” if I wanted to. I never talk about sex, dating, etc. at work (I’m actually asexual but haven’t disclosed that to anyone at work). I asked if there was a specific incident that made someone uncomfortable but was told that was confidential? I would feel terrible if I behaved in a way that upset someone, but I don’t know what to do, I can’t change anything if I don’t know what I did wrong.

    1. Buttons*

      What! Did you sign anything? Did you tell your boss that if you don’t know what you did, you couldn’t change anything?
      I am sorry that happened and your boss is not handling this correctly. Do you have HR?

      1. Scrimpie*

        We have one HR person. My boss met with me together with the HR person to give me the warning. I was not asked to sign anything, but was presented with a memo that is going in my file and was told I will be fired if there are any further incidents. I did ask for further details (like – was there a specific clothing item that was problematic? A specific statement/phrase I had used that caused upset?) and was told their policy was to protect the identities of those who felt harassed by my behavior, and they could not say more without violating that confidentiality.

        1. WellRed*

          Consult with an employment lawyer. You’re being treated very terribly and your job is at risk. Whoever made this unfounded complaint WILL complain again.

        2. Buttons*

          This is complete BS. Someone is sexualizing you, and you have no control over that. Women are shamed all the time for what they are wearing and you know having breasts. This is not how a situation like this should be handled, and they can give more details, they are choosing not to because it sounds like a BS set up.

          1. Scrimpie*

            Yes, I have the sort of (very generously sized) hourglass physique that…just isn’t possible to hide completely, at least not in any sort of office-appropriate attire. That being said, although I would privately think it was kind of ridiculous, if my boss/HR wanted me to change something about my attire I would do my best to accommodate – clothes are definitely not my hill to die on. But from what I could gather the complaint(s) seemed to be about my physical movements and not my clothes.

        3. sacados*

          I think if you did want to take one more run at it, you could go back to your manager and/or HR and say something like “I pride myself on always being appropriate and professional in the office. Absent any concrete details about the complaint, I have no way of further acting on this information. I will continue to handle myself professionally at work, as I always have.”
          But that’s only if you felt you wanted to try talking to them again.

          And then document / consult with a lawyer / be alert for any more signs of this kind of BS.

        4. Elizabeth West*

          That’s BULLSHIT. It isn’t violating confidentiality to be specific without naming names. All they’d have to do is use language like, “Several people observed you doing [example],” or “overheard you saying [example].” That in no way outs anyone.

          Somebody is jacking you around.

          1. Jane*

            That is just dumb, and the fact that your manager and HR collaborated in it instead of telling the complainant to get a life is probably a sign that you need a new job. By all means ask/document/be alert, but I think it would be useful to add GTFO to your list.

    2. WellRed*

      You, my friend, are being fat-shamed or set up for dismissal because the boss or someone else doesn’t like you. That’s the only thing I can come up with. I also doubt it’s “a few” coworkers. It’s likely the boss themself or one person. Got HR? You need to protect yourself here before you get unfairly canned for sexual harassment.

      Also, time to start job searching.

    3. Close Bracket*

      Wow. I am really sorry. You deserve to get more clarification on what “prancing” and “flaunting” refer to. Since you say you are heaviset, I suspect that the problem is that you exist while female and fat. Give yourself some time to gather your thoughts, and set up a formal meeting with your boss and HR. Tell them you take a comfortable work environment seriously and you want to make sure everyone is on the same page going forward regarding what constitutes prancing and flaunting and what you are to do differently.

      1. Scrimpie*

        Thank you, I did ask in the meeting and they provided the alternative phrasing that it meant I was “waltzing around shamelessly,” but I don’t know what that means either, like – am I supposed to be ashamed of having a human body? One that is fully covered in clothes? One that houses the mind I use to do my back-office desk job that is completely unrelated to pleasing others with my looks? Our office has people of all ages, shapes and sizes, including a couple others around my size or larger, and we’re in an industry known for being more intellectual than glamorous. But setting up a meeting next week to get more clarification is a good idea, and will hopefully show I am not dismissing the complaint and want to understand how to fix the issue.

          1. Scrimpie*

            Right – the implication was that I was using the office to seek sexual attention. I’m afraid I am going to have to come out as ace, which I really don’t want to do as it isn’t anyone’s business. Am I going to have to make a plaque for my desk that says, “Scrimpie – Noted Asexual – any resemblance to prancing, flaunting, or other sexualized behavior is entirely coincidental”?

            1. valentine*

              Don’t come out. They’re lying or sexualizing you, so your motive and behavior means nothing. It’s like the OP who ogles his colleague. He wants her to cover her breasts. Doesn’t matter that he can mainly see them because he’s taller and chooses to be in range. These fiends have promised to fire you the next time you do this secret movement you’re unaware of and they’ve put a scarlet letter in your file. They won’t describe incidents and are using antiquated language on par with the way people only say “wedlock” preceding a misogynistic chaser.

            2. Quandong*

              Scrimpie, you haven’t done anything wrong. Somebody is sexualizing you at work and this is not your fault – I’m so sorry! This is intensely aggravating and unfair and reeks of misogyny.

              Unless you were planning to come out as ace at the office anyway, don’t come out now during a process where people have already shown dreadful judgement. I do not think it would benefit you to reveal that you’re ace during this process (unless advised by a legal professional to do so). Your sexual orientation has nothing to do with this appalling situation.

              Furthermore, since asexuality is…uh…not well understood by many – people can be extraordinarily intrusive when asking what it means. I’d be very concerned that you would be the recipient of unwelcome attention and questions about your sex life, and your presentation would be more scrutinized at work.

            3. Jane*

              Absolutely don’t come out. “This language appears to be sexualizing me, but I believe sexuality is an inappropriate topic for the workplace and I never talk about my own private life or wear revealing clothing because I wish to maintain professional standards. Have you asked the complainant to be sure to be professional in dealing with me? I would much rather be focusing on doing good work than on vague and non-actionable complaints.”

        2. cmcinnyc*

          Honestly? That wording in and of itself is a tell. I’m having a hard time picturing any of the very professional EEO lawyers who work at my company calling me in and saying “You’ve been waltzing around shamelessly.” They would find a less ridiculous way to say that. These people are messing with you. If that’s the only HR person you have, reach out to the EEOC office for your state asap.

        3. Lily Rowan*

          What the actual eff?? That is horrifying. And just sounds absolutely ridiculous and like you are being set up. I’m sorry.

          1. Quandong*

            Yes, this sounds like a case of Existing while Boobed and Fullbodied. Someone there is sexualizing Scrimpie and trying to make her take the blame.

        5. Close Bracket*

          Oh god, that’s terrible. I didn’t realize that HR was present at the first meeting. I was thinking it was just your boss, and I suggest HR to get make sure they knew you had these accusations thrown at you (under the guise of making sure they knew you were taking it seriously). Yeah, waltzing isn’t anymore specific than prancing or flaunting. In your position, if I had the funds, I would be consulting a lawyer.

          This sounds like someone finds you sexxxay, and they are projecting that their boner is the result of your wanton, temptress ways. See whether you can get them to admit that.

    4. Grand Mouse*

      Whoa. I’m not sure what to advise. You can’t and shouldn’t get in trouble for people sexualizing you. People accuse women of “flaunting it” all the time and existing as someone with a body isn’t their fault. This sounds like you might actually be the victim of sexual harassment. Something is definitely going on here.

    5. PB*

      Ooooh I am so mad on your behalf right now. This is BS. The incident that you supposedly performed is “confidential?” No!

      Who issued the warning? If it was your boss, can you go to HR? Or, if HR issued the warning, maybe talk to someone higher up in HR? In most states, weight isn’t a protected class, but gender and age (if over 40) are protected. I agree with Grand Mouse that you may be a victim of sexual harassment here. It’s worth looking more into this, and might be worth talking to a lawyer if you don’t get satisfactory answers.

    6. sacados*

      What. The. Actual.
      No words.

      Especially since, unless they give you specific examples there is literally NO WAY you could know how to modify your behavior even if it was warranted!!
      Agreed with others, there is definitely something fishy going on here.
      Start documenting everything asap.

    7. LLG612*

      Holy hell. Document and lawyer up! I’m about the least litigious person you’ll ever meet (just ask my ex husband!) but this is despicable. Please update us. Hugs.

      PS Don’t come out if you don’t want to. That’s immaterial to this accusation, and it shouldn’t force your hand.

    8. MissDisplaced*

      Something sounds really wrong with this accusation. Prancing? Flaunting? When you’ve said you’re middle aged and frumpy (same here-don’t care).
      I think I’d consult a lawyer.

    9. Ruby Port*

      Scrimpie, I am so furious that this is happening to you! I agree with what others have said: telling you specifically what the issue is does not violate confidentiality and they cannot expect you to modify your behavior if you don’t know what’s wrong. I do hope you consult an attorney.

      As an aside, remember the guy who couldn’t keep his eyes to himself? I have to think that if he actually did complain to HR, this is the kind of complaint he would make.

  176. Foreign Octopus*

    I have an ESL student who was telling me that she’s been interviewing for a new job lately, and I was asking her about it because I know she really enjoys her company and wondered what it was that was making her want to move. She told me that she didn’t plan on moving but rather she was going to use whatever offer she got to show it to her current manager and ask for a raise. Every part of me just went noooooooooooo.

    I politely warned her that that wasn’t a good idea and to only do that if she was really happy to take the other job, but I guess I’ve been reading AAM for a long time because I remember that Sansa letter (https://www.askamanager.org/2017/02/my-friend-tried-to-strong-arm-her-way-into-a-promotion.html).

    It’s not as bad as that, but it just shows that AAM needs to be required reading for everyone.

  177. Grand Mouse*

    Hi! There was that post yesterday about getting a lawyer and letting your company know. I’m wondering if I should talk to a lawyer or start somewhere else?

    So back in May I injured my hand, and then shortly after injured the other one from overcompensating. I was put on light duty for a while. It was a bit of a mess because the doctor had intended me to take time off work but my job said the light duty was fine and I felt pressured to agree. By the books, they did nothing wrong

    Fast forward to today. My hands are hurting again, to the point that typing this hurts! I never recieved physical therapy even though I was supposed to. I didn’t press the issue because at that point my hands were better. My case was closed.

    So at this I don’t know how to proceed. I don’t understand L&I at all. I just did as I was told and that worked ok… for a bit. Do I talk to a lawyer to advocate for me getting my hands healed? Go back to my case manager? (We had no direct contact before). Just drop it? There’s no proof it is because of the original injury. Thanks!

    1. LCL*

      If you are in the US, google and find out your state’s laws and policies. The state I am in, you would file another claim and let L & I and the doctors sort it out.

    2. Coverage Associate*

      Was the doctor selected by your workplace’s workers compensation carrier? If so, you could call the doctor’s office, describe your problems, and ask for their recommendation for getting physical therapy authorized.

    3. LCL*

      …adding for when you reopen your claim or start a new one.
      Your job doesn’t get to decide if their light duty fits within your restrictions. Your doctor specifies your restrictions, then you ask your company if they have work within those restrictions. If they say yes and you try it and it hurts, you tell them it doesn’t work and you go back to the doctor. If the doctor recommend physical therapy it is on you to schedule it. If the doctor is good with L and I claims, they will have a list PT providers who are willing to work with injured workers and negotiate the insurance maze.

  178. PewPewPew*

    This may seem premature, but I need ideas on a small, easily mail-able holiday gift I can send out to our remote teams (70 people across 8 states).
    Thanks in advance!

    1. AccountantWendy*

      There are tons of company’s that do cookies or other edibles. Visa or Amex gift cards are fairly universal (it’s basically cash). Baseball caps or winter hats (if all 8 states have winter).

      1. Nicki Name*

        +1 for gift cards, though there can be complications buying them in bulk.

        (Once upon a time, the company holiday party had to be cancelled because the venue was closing unexpectedly, so the company announced we would all get $50 gift cards instead. The executive assistant who tried to buy around 150 cards from the selected vendor was told the vendor wouldn’t sell that many to one specific customer! I never found out why. The solution was that everyone working on-site got $50 cash instead.)

        1. valentine*

          there can be complications buying them in bulk
          I once waited painfully in a growing line and it was ages before they opened another register, all without saying there was a slowdown or closing the affected register, because two or three cashiers had to open and break apart tons of gift cards they could only sell by scanning individually. I don’t know why they couldn’t do it at customer service. Complete horror. So. many. cards.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Stores will have gift baskets to send, then you don’t have to mail anything and can plug in a standard “Happy Holidays from The Team!” kind of thing. Saves you from having to personally mail things, the time to type out everything per order is going to minimal compared to packing, labeling and dropping packages.

      Otherwise I would go with some kind of coffee mug with candies.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I was also going to suggest cookies. I also think fun socks are a great gift, especially fuzzy ones for wearing around the house. Generic gift cards are good– personally, I would prefer Amazon, Target, or even Starbucks to an Amex or Visa gift card, because I find the latter two tough to use online, but YMMV.

    4. Not a Real Giraffe*

      We do moleskin notebooks that have our company logo embossed. They’re practical and easily mailed, people use them all the time (who doesn’t need a notebook when at work?), but the logo is the same color as the notebook so it doesn’t scream “BRANDED ITEM!!” the way some other tchotchke might.

    5. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My boss does small (I think the leads got $25 and the 30 team members got $10? She had to go out of pocket for them, holiday stuff was deemed not reimbursable last year) gift cards for everyone, tailored somewhat to info she knows about them from 1:1s. I like pizza and order from a particular pizza place several times a month, so I got a gift card there. My co-lead takes her grandkids out for Blizzards, so hers was to Dairy Queen. That kind of thing. I think anyone she didn’t have a good idea for, she went with Amazon.

  179. Kuplo*

    How do you handle situations where you’re told to do something with little to no training/guidance and then get told off for doing the assignment incorrectly? I’m the type who likes to ask questions early on and get a decent grasp of how to handle an assignment so that I don’t waste time. But at my last position, I was given little-to-no training and my manager actively disliked me asking questions, telling me that I was asking too many. So I tried my best and then got chastised for my work, which was hard to not take personally. I’m trying to learn from mistakes but I hate the idea of even making such mistakes when they could’ve been avoided by Q&A.

    I’m still a newbie so I don’t know whether this is what I should expect going forward with my career? If so, do you guys just wing it and hope for the best in scenarios like this?

    1. Asenath*

      You’ll probably run into people who take all kinds of different approaches to giving instructions over the years. And yes, sometimes there’s a mismatch between the way the supervisor likes giving instructions and the kind of instructions the worker likes to get. I think if you do encounter someone who says you’re asking too many questions, or you know the person doesn’t like questions, you can try to limit your questions to the absolutely essential ones; especially ones about deadlines and what the project is supposed to look like at the end. You still might run into supervisors who won’t give you directions and blame you when they don’t get what they want. You can try things like asking for more structure next time (being specific!), or perhaps check into the existence of something that will guide you, like policy manuals or a copy of last year’s report. But in the end, it isn’t your fault if you’ve tried to get directions and couldn’t, no matter what the supervisor says.

  180. Old employer won’t stop texting me.*

    I was let go due to outsourcing in June, and have received a few texts from my previous boss asking work-related questions. So far my responses have been curt and Along the lines of “I don’t recall,” or “check my old files.” I thought they would get the hint and leave me alone, but I received a new text today and now I think I may have to be more forward with them about not texting me with work related questions. Any ideas on how to communicate this message professionally?

    1. Close Bracket*

      “I’m afraid my processes are back at Company, so I can’t answer that. I won’t be able to help going forward unless you wanted to bring me on as a contractor and have me work out the office. Thanks!”

    3. Colette*

      “Unfortunately, it’s been a few months since I’ve worked there and I don’t remember.”

      But answer more and more slowly – if they texted you today, reply on Monday.

      Alternatively, you could be more direct. “Since I no longer work there, I won’t be able to answer questions any longer as I need to focus on my new job/job hunt.”

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Just stop responding and block their number. Unless they’re going to be a reference for you, I’m assuming your references for that location just go to HR for the standard stuff but if they are a reference then perhaps you’ll just want to be more pointed with “I really can’t be of any further assistance for these kinds of things, please stop texting me with this kind of stuff.”

    5. CatCat*

      “Since I no longer work at Employer, I can no longer answer work questions about Employer as I need to focus on my other professional commitments. Thanks!” And just stop responding to texts after that. Block them if you want.

      If you’d be down to consult for them, you could add, “I am able to consult X times per week at a rate of $Y per [hour/fractions of an hour/query]. If you’re amenable to that, please send over a contract for my review.” That puts the onus on them to put in the work if they seriously need you to keep helping them.

    6. Kiwiii*

      Answer them late, like 2+ days late, and say something like “Hi! Short answer to the thing. I’ve been really busy finding new employment/honing my resume/something else since being let go and just won’t have the time to continue to help with anything else [optional space to offer helping with a couple things for a consultation fee], but all of my documentation should be in the file/Kelly should be a pretty helpful resource/my file cabinet is organized like this. best of luck!”

  181. fogharty*

    Hi, I asked last week about a gift to colleagues, one of whom was diabetic.
    I wanted to thank you all for the suggestions, and in the end I went with gourmet popcorn. That way they could pick and choose what they wanted.
    Again, thanks.

  182. Combinatorialist*

    This is sort of a hypothetical question, but a colleague at work is having her office moved so that it shares a wall with the men’s restroom. She is very offended by this and basically refusing. Her reaction seems strong to me (but I’m only a year into my career). Is this a normal thing to get worked up about?

      1. Combinatorialist*

        I don’t know, exactly. She was asking me if there was any office space in my building (we are on a campus of tons of smaller buildings). I think some combination of smell/sound/traffic — though the restrooms in my building seem fairly well ventilated, etc, I don’t know about hers. But she was definitely of the mind that no one should have an office that shares a wall with a bathroom, and she was pretty adamant about this. And I wondered if I was missing something.

          1. valentine*

            Does her home not have rooms that share a wall with a bathroom? Is she pale and does she avoid sunlight, garlic, and X’s?

    2. Asenath*

      Is there something abnormal about the restroom? Poor ventilation, excessive smells, something like that? Or is it a very busy restroom, so the reason might be like the reason I was once told that my cubicle near the photocopier was undesirable because there were so many people coming and going all the time to the photocopier?

      I can’t think of another reason

    3. Greenland is not for sale*

      It could be noisy – can one hear flushing and other noises from the restroom? Perhaps it’s cultural?

      Psychologically, I can see how it might be playing out, “I’m good enough to share a wall with the men’s restroom.” as it’s probably not an ideal location as you remember what’s going on, on the other side of the wall. But then I had a boss that purposefully chose an office that faced the bathroom, so it didn’t bother her.

      Everyone’s got a thing. It’s normal for some people and not for others.

    4. MaxiesMommy*

      Depends—is there bad ventilation? Could she get grossed out every time the door opened?? Is there a noise level nearby, talking and plumbing noises? Ick. I can see a pushback.

    5. London Calling*

      In her place so would I be. A constant procession of people past her desk, the door slamming, smells…I once spent a 24 hour flight in a seat next to one of the plane toilets and that was enough. I can’t begin to imagine what it would be like to have that every day.

    6. The Worst Cubicle*

      I wouldn’t flat out refuse, but I’d definitely be advocating to get moved elsewhere if I were them! I am next to the restrooms and it’s honestly awful. I’d ask to move but there’s nowhere to go. There’s actually a small office next to our men’s room that was turned into a storage space because the sound transfer was so bad, even with sound-reducing panels added to the inside of the restroom and the inside of the office.

      My cube used to be set up so that my ear was pointed almost directly at the door, and I basically heard everything, and then it would get amplified if someone opened the door while another person was urinating or… whatever. Run of the mill visits weren’t a huge issue but we did have someone who I assume had a medical condition and it was hard for me, personally, to concentrate while hearing that go down multiple times a day. Mind you this is with soundproofing in the room and solid wood doors shut. I now sit such that my ear is orientated towards the women’s restroom – same problems as the mens but we just have far fewer women.

      Assuming your walls are solid and actual body-function-noises aren’t escaping the restroom, you also have to consider traffic. It’s miserable to be near the restrooms whenever a big meeting lets out. I have a 6′ cube wall between me and that corridor and it does nothing for the noise from people walking by and talking on their way to and from that restroom. An office might be better, but still distracting I’d bet unless the door was shut.

      The final piece that needs to be considered is eye contact. If this person’s office is set up such that their natural working line of sight (typically towards the computer monitors) is towards the bathroom doors it’s gonna get weird fast. I’ve also got that problem when I use my desk as a standing desk.

      All of the above are why restrooms are usually tucked off in a hallway or corner in an office building, but sometimes space constraints or bad design leads to misery. In my case the restrooms are right off the large open area so someone is always going to be near them. (My building is a converted garage space. :( )

      1. Mama Bear*

        Good idea to turn that office into storage to both use the space and keep someone from hearing folks using the restroom all day. I’m near a conference room and I keep my door mostly closed during busy hours because I can see into it (fishbowl glass) and it’s just distracting. If I were the previous person’s coworker, I’d suggest that my coworker calm down and address it professionally with management, especially if there really is a noise problem.

        1. The Worst Cubicle*

          I think the only slot worse than being near the restrooms is being near the conference room!

    7. CatCat*

      If it’s just the wall, I would not be “very offended,” but I would be “very annoyed.” Because I had a colleague who had an office that shared a wall with the bathroom and it was flushing sounds and door/stall slamming sounds all the live long day.

    8. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I mean someone has to have it and I think I’d really be thinking of the reason why she got the short end of the stick. If she’s constantly getting that kind of icky spot sort of thing, like “Jane gets the scraps”, I can see how that would really add to her frustrations!

      My office is by the bathrooms. I don’t care. There’s no ventilation issue or noise issue really, the walls are thick and my music drowns out most things. But I could see if the building was thin walled and you had heavy bathroom traffic with say a lot of telephone work…yikes!

  183. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

    I’m considering learning QuickBooks to make myself more attractive to employers. I do billing at current job (submit billing to a state agency and track it in Excel). How difficult is it to learn QB for small businesses, and would you consider hiring a self-taught person? Thanks.

    1. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m self-employed and have Quickbooks for small business and thought it was pretty easy to learn and this is coming from someone who has zero accounting background outside of a couple college classes. Quickbooks has a ton of tutorials to help you learn the fine points.

    2. Raj*

      I also think it is pretty easy, and I think there are a lot of free resources out there to help you learn. I am a controller and would absolutely hire someone who was self-taught in QuickBooks if they had other skills I needed. Outside of a dumb class I had to take while getting an AA in accounting, I don’t know of anyone who was taught any way other than self-taught or on-the-job training. You’ll get the basics quickly after watching a few videos or playing around a bit, and anything more complicated you can google. Go for it!

  184. A girl has no name*

    I’ve been interviewing candidates for a role in my organization. Many of them are recent university grads, and this would be their first or second post-education job. During the interviews, we’ve received the sense that some of the candidates fit really well into a different kind of role or field than what we’re interviewing for; they are answering questions in such a way that make us think “hmm, that probably wouldn’t work here but it sounds like they’d thrive in X field or X environment”. Think, interviewing for a teapot designer but it seems to us they actually have all the right skills to naturally be a successful teapot seller.

    What do you think of giving that feedback to a candidate? If they are just getting started and possibly still figuring things out, do you think they’d appreciate it or would it be salt in the wound on top of not receiving an offer?

    Just curious!

    1. Kuplo*

      As a recent college grad, I would personally love that kind of feedback! But I think it’d be a bit disheartening to be told that I should try for Teapot Seller when my degree was in Design – unless you mention that becoming a Teapot Seller is doable with my current experience/background in Design or that it’d be possible to start off as an entry Seller without any experience due to my skills of ABC that you saw during the interview?

      1. A girl has no name*

        Thanks for the response. That is exactly what I mean! The candidates would do reasonably well in the role we are hiring for (although possibly aren’t the strongest match compared with other candidates) but in their interviews they seemed really well suited to a different job or environment (none of which are thaaat far off from what they applied for with us and definitely make use of their current education and experience).

        1. seeveeargh*

          Is it possible that the candidates are aware of the fact that they’d be a better fit for a slightly different role/environment, but are applying for different roles anyway? I’ve applied to plenty of jobs that only peripherally matched my experience, skills, and education because there just weren’t that many jobs I could apply for, especially right after school.

    2. Another worker bee*

      I’m not sure how close your analogous jobs are to the actual job titles in question, but in particular, recommending someone who is applying for a “design” role to a “sales” role instead kind of raises my hackles, as this happens to me as a woman in tech all the time. Despite being every bit as competent on the technical pieces as my male colleagues, people love to suggest more “soft skills” type roles for me, because “it just seems like you would excel at that role”. I guess, just make sure that you aren’t viewing these candidates in a gendered/other type of biased way when you make those suggestions (and be aware that e.g. a young woman might see it that way whether it was based on a legitimate observation or not)

      1. A girl has no name*

        That’s a very valid point, thank you!

        My coded examples for the purpose of this forum are actually more different than the real roles. I am confident that there was no gender bias in this particular experience, but that is definitely something to keep in mind in the future!

    3. Mama Bear*

      Are you looking to hire someone in that role? If so, I’d tell the person just what you said – that they seemed like a really good fit for x and would they want to have a second interview in that department. If they ONLY want to be considered for the role to which they applied, then I’d just go forward with your regular process. We had someone come in via a networking recommendation. During the interview we were trying to figure out where they would fit best, but it became clear that teapot designer was really really where they wanted to be FT, not anywhere else, even though they had skills to fill gaps at least PT in other roles. We don’t currently have a FT designer role so it didn’t work out. We did include some very basic feedback, which the candidate thanked us for.

  185. Phryne Fisher*

    The nature of my work is that there are reports we receive that must be processed in a timely manner.

    The reports are split between my three coworkers. I am the team lead and only work reports when volume is higher than normal, when the team is behind, etc. I was happy when I was promoted to team lead because that meant I could spend more time on career-building projects.

    One of the three team members is notoriously flaky, so I’ve had to spend >50% of my time covering for him since I was promoted. He is now on medical leave; since then I spend all of my time processing reports. I feel demoralized because I feel stuck in the same role I has pre-promotion.. only with a new title.

    The actual issue: since coworker went on medical leave, our manager asked everyone who requested time off to postpone their time off. Any requests for time off are being discouraged.

    I feel very resentful towards my manager and above. My expectation is that if our coworker is going to be out for >1 month, management should figure out a solution other than expecting my coworkers and me to rearrange our lives.

    Thoughts?

    2. Rex*

      I think you should talk to the management! Tell them your team needs to figure out better coverage — temp help, whatever. That asking people postpone their vacations is a recipe for burnout / resentment / people leaving.

      1. valentine*

        And apply that solution to the future flakiness. (Unless what you saw as flakiness was his health stuff.) Basically, if you are covering more than 3% (less, more?), management needs to fix that without you so you can do the bulk of your job.

      2. Psyche*

        I agree. If they cannot handle anyone taking time off because one person is on medical leave, they are understaffed. At minimum they need to hire a temp. Really, it sounds like they need another full time person.

  186. Nowhereland*

    Hi all,
    There was a thread either on here or on reddit about a workplace incident. In the incident, OP (a man) said a colleague said “I’m going to ask Jane [sic] about anthropology,” OP said “Why would Jane know about anthropology, she doesn’t know anything about that.” and OP was roundly reprimanded by both HR and the commenters. Anyone have a link?

    1. Not All*

      Link to follow. You probably weren’t finding it because it was about a rock she thought might be a fossil not anthropology :)

  187. anon this Friday*

    Is anybody here bicoastal? I have a sort of long-term planning Q for you all. Both my husband and I have good jobs in NYC, and a kiddo about to start high school. Aside from nerves about paying for college (especially if we hit a recession for real) we are doing fine. However, in the last two years we have both passed on potential career development moves that would have meant living in LA at least a good chunk of the time, or possibly full time. Right now, we’re ruling it out until kiddo graduates from high school–or at least for me. If he gets a particular long-shot offer, he’d go. I feel ok and not ok about that, but it’s in the realm of “we’ll deal.” If anybody has done a two-city deal for a job necessitating a real move, not just lots of travel, but actually living somewhere else at least a chunk of the week/month/year, how did you pull it off?

    1. AnotherAlison*

      I have one kid in college & one in high school. I took an internal position that had me living in an apartment in a city that was 12 hrs away by car or 1.5 hr by plane. My older kid was at his college, and my husband stayed in our house with my younger son. I had almost weekly trips back (Sat/Sun at home), which made it bearable, but most people I work with have 2-3 weeks before they have a weekend at home. Mine was always for a year. I think it would be different you were looking at staying apart for 4 years. I would probably move the whole family in that scenario. My experience with my kids has been they are pretty adaptable. I assume part of it would depend on your job–you both may not find great jobs in another city at the same time — but barring that, I would rather move my kid from their friends than from their other parent. The devil is in the details of how often you can both go back-and-forth. Keep in mind, that even if you CAN go back regularly, that wears a person out.

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Yeah, what CAN be done and what I could really hack are definitely two different things. We are a complicated trio because we all do specialized things (kiddo included, which I know sounds weird but is a fact).

        1. valentine*

          Doesn’t sound weird at all. If kiddo or you are unable to move, I think it’d be neat to see if you can work it out with spouse in LA. Maybe look at what people have done when it’s custody or the military that causes the distance.

  188. Home Based Worker FTW!*

    My new mentee has asked for ideas on expanding her network within the office. Outside of suggesting she join the office’s Toastmaster chapter, etc, what are your best tips to step outside of one’s immediate work circle, while staying at work?

    Thank you.

    1. cmcinnyc*

      This is actually the easiest networking there is. One way: you reach out to people directly either via email or in person and ask if they have time to get coffee to discuss (what that person’s dept really does/career trajectories here at This Job/an interesting facet of that person’s background/because you both went to the same university/whatever you’ve prepared as your pitch). Another way: for people at your own level, be available to have lunch semi-regularly or step out for a coffee, go to happy hour. Casual contact, not really set up, but keep your focus professional. Easiest way of all: pick your butt up out of your chair when you need to send something out via the mailroom or you need to talk to someone’s EA and go do it in person. If you are friendly and respectful and concise, you will know every support person in the company in a month, and you will give the impression that you know EVERYONE. And then people will start reaching out to *you!*

      1. Home Based Worker FTW!*

        Thank you, @cmcinnyc! I’m a WFH employee who – due to a number of factors – doesn’t feel the need to network the way this employee does, so I was struggling with ideas. It’s a huge company (tens of thousands across multiple shores) so I think she was feeling a little overwhelmed.

      2. Zombie Unicorn*

        Yes! Ask some people for coffee and a chat. I’ve had someone do this and I really was very happy to chat to them.

    2. Juniper*

      I realize that this may not be practical for many people, but when I was about a year into my new job, I put together a charter fishing trip for office people. It was a big challenge, taken on my own time with my boss’s OK, and I ended up getting sick and not even able to go on the trip (I sent my husband in my stead- spouses were included)! But I am forever remembered as the fishing woman now, and people who I don’t normally interact with professionally are very warm to me.

  189. Wrench Turner*

    Annual review goes both ways?
    My day job isn’t bad but has some serious problems:
    -Zero Standard Operating Practices for field techs. I asked about this and was told we don’t tell you what problems to look for because we want you to look at everything and figure it out for yourself. This leads to a ton of wasted time, frustrated customers when techs show up not knowing anything more than “Problem here” and so on.
    -Zero program for training/certifications. We talk a lot about training and certification to customers but I actually had to leave the company and get trained & certified elsewhere because it just wasn’t going to happen the first time I worked here. We only have safety training when there is a major injury; we’ve had 1 safety (someone nearly lost a leg) and 1 skills training in the last 9 months and I had to beg for that.
    -Zero information sharing. We’re told “get what you need for the job” but we aren’t really told what the job is until the moment we’re dispatched to do it. It’s like telling a chef “Get what you need for this restaurant” but not telling her what will be cooked! This leads to no inventory control and literal truckloads of wasted materials and of course time, both of which are money.
    Management’s review of me should be pretty straight forward. I’m in good favor and do a good job as measured by the reviews customers leave; we have a web app that tracks all that and I’m not only getting the most positive reviews, I’m frequently mentioned by name. I also get sent to difficult job sites to smooth over a lot of preventable problems. I still have a lot to learn, and I say as much, but they let me do what I think needs be done.
    How do I politely, as a knowingly underpaid minion wrench turner in the field, say to Boss that we have a whole lot of management but no leadership? There is almost-but-not-quite open talk of unionizing among the other wrenches and Boss knows that I was fired in retaliation for whistle blowing, so he knows when I say “this is what I see”, that it’s the truth as I see it.

    I work in HVAC which is nice in some ways because everybody is always hiring. I know I can get another job by the end of the week, and Boss knows it, too. I really do like this company for the most part, it could just be so much better.

    1. LCL*

      Problems 1 and 3 are interrelated. There must be some best practices out there for small shops. Yes, HVAC is always changing but surely these things have been figured out. Try contacting some other companies and professional associations. I know there’s at least 1 subreddit for HVAC techs.

      Problem two will require someone to set up a training plan and safety program. And management to buy off on setting aside company time to train. Maybe start simple with the OSHA or state required basic training, so people get used to coming to class. Do you techs go into the office every day for a morning dispatch? Add a safety briefing to that. And encourage techs to talk about a difficult call. If nobody reports to a central place this gets much harder.

  190. Lujessmin*

    I work as a sales associate at a boutique bird seed store. I work part time, like the job and most of my coworkers. However, the new hire is pushing all my buttons and I really don’t like working with her. It’s a personality clash more than anythimy. Right now, I only have to work with her one day a week, so there’s that. I’d hate to have to use up all my Xanax just to deal with her. Amy suggestions?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Keep it strictly business. Don’t engage with them unless it’s about bird seed and find ways to be busy when they’re around. That’s about the best you can do unless they’re actively disruptive.

  191. Dee*

    This just happened and I need advice badly.

    I’ve been sending out my resume, and have been getting a wealth of interest. I’m very excited for whatever new job waits!

    HOWEVER, I realized just now that the final number on my start date for a current job is wrong. It reads “Month 2017- Present”. I only started that job in 2018, and now I need to issue a correction, or else it looks like a bait and switch!

    How should I go about correcting this very embarrassing error before my interview on Tuessday?

    1. Wrench Turner*

      Tell them at the interview. “Hey I just realized I had an embarrassing typo on this entry. It’s actually 2018.” Anyway….

      1. Dee*

        Would that not be seen as a bait and switch? And when would be an appropriate time to tell them during the interview?

        1. Wrench Turner*

          You’re human, typos happen. Tell them right away, ‘Before we get started, I was looking this over and realized I had an embarrassing typo here. It should be 2018.’

        2. Psyche*

          Does it affect whether or not you meet the posted requirements for the job? As in “needs X years experience in Y”? If it does it may be a bigger deal since you probably would have been screened out. In that case I would reach out to them before the interview with the corrected resume. Otherwise, treat it like a minor typo and give them the corrected version at the beginning of the interview.

          1. Dee*

            It doesn’t take me out of the screening, I still have the same years of experience, just less time at one company and more time at another. I’m being let go from my job at the end of the month so I’ve just been panicking and emotional. I messed up on this one and took my mother’s misguided advice. I ended up calling the woman I spoke with and letting her know, assuring her it was out of character. She told me to resend the resume, if I could still do the interview time, and that “she’d see if she could send out the forms”. It’s been around an hour and nothing.

            I think I did this one wrong, which is disappointing. But I understand what to do for the next correction I have to make.

        3. Person from the Resume*

          Bait and switch means that you attracted their attention by something that’s not true so unless it changes your experience or some other deciding factor, you’re fine.

  192. Kelly Kapoor, the Business B*

    6 months I left a long-term job to move up into an upper management role with a very small organization. Non-profit. It’s a good learning opportunity. But the learning comes with no benefits, long hours, a lot of stress, and making decisions about a lot of things I know nothing about.

    But I am being offered a lower-stress job in a larger org, with benefits, money I don’t have to raise all of all by myself, a smaller focus of work and more stability. Slightly less money, but I don’t care all that much about that.

    What do I do?

    1. (Mr.) Cajun2core*

      Take the new job, unless you have a history of job hopping. One short job in on your resume isn’t going to look that bad.

  193. The Wait is Over!*

    You guys!!!! Thank you so much for the support last week! I got the job!!!!! “Hands up for goodness” is also something I am spreading every where I go from now on!

  194. Me--Blargh!*

    So, I applied for a freelance SEO content writing job and they signed me up for a (paid) test article. Several people in a freelance group I joined said the company is good to work for. I guess if they like my test, I get to write content. It’s not much in terms of money, though it will help and give me something to add to my resume, plus it’s a good opportunity to expand my skills a little. I still need a full-time job with benefits, ASAP. But this is something I can do concurrent to that. I’ve done it before and it worked out fine. I just have to make sure the internet is good enough while I’m at my mum’s.

    My realtor called me and told me a buyer who’d expressed interest but bailed was coming back with a contractor (my house is kind of a fixer-upper). That’s good, right? Fingers crossed I can get as close to asking price as possible.

    There’s a lot of flipping going on in my neighborhood right now, so it’s slowly getting better; they even remodeled and expanded the primary school around the corner. If I had the money, I’d flip it, rent it out, and then when the area has improved over time, sell it for more than I paid for it. But I can’t do that, and I need to get out of here. The job market shows no signs of improving and recession looms. Once this house is no longer hanging around my neck, I can go anywhere.

    Meanwhile, I had to leave while they were here, so I went to the flea market (bad idea, lol). ;)

  195. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello, friends! If you were following the Hellmouth Saga while it was ongoing, you might be interested in hearing that the Hellmouth reached out again—this time, I got an email from a senior VP/head legal council lady from the company that I had thought was completely shuttering on 7/31 (apparently they were just washing their hands of managing properties, although I do not know what else they are doing… I guess they still own the properties?) saying she had left me a voicemail a week prior (she hadn’t) and asked me to please give her a call because Sunnydale Ltd wanted to give me a severance. It seemed really strange to be getting a message about this more than a month after I had given notice, left, and a new company had taken over, but I figured maybe it was perfectly normal and there was no reason not to call. Apparently there is some bonus money that I could be eligible for if I just signed the paperwork that she would email me with my permission.

    I like money okay, so I told her I would review the paperwork—but the verbiage on it is kind of alarming. I’m not fluent in legalese, so maybe it is 100% as standard and normal as the VP lady (who I emailed with questions and concerns after reviewing the documents), but I don’t love that it says that the company decided to terminate my employment (which, no, I gave and served notice) four days after what was my actual last day. I just don’t love that. It also says that I can never ever sue them, and that I will never speak ill of them on any platform ever, and if this paperwork is signed and returned I will receive the princely sum of $109.00.

    I kind of like speaking ill of the Hellmouth and of Sunnydale Ltd, so I don’t think I’ll be signing. Speaking ill of them is kind of worth $109 bucks to me. Am I right in thinking that whole thing was kind of off? Does anyone have any experience with that stuff?

    If you saw my post last week about GUMPTION Girl, just know that she still keeps coming by my new work place after hours and trying to get in or stop me while I’m on my way out—the manager has said he is going to call her and tell her that the behavior is unwelcome (and hopefully spell out that we will not be hiring he).

    This remains a lovely place to work, although I am slowly amassing a large number of “Holy crap, RICH PEOPLE” stories. Oh, and apparently bloodlust for harmless creatures is a thing at all apartment communities. In this instance, a small garter snake that maintenance has previously captured and released by the local wooded area allegedly made its way back to a shrubbery near a resident who “doesn’t like snakes” and whose daughter “also doesn’t like snakes,” and she is angrily insisting that we must immediately go, find it (she does not know where it might be, just that it is “out there”) and behead it. I mean, it’s fine to not like snakes, but would she be ordering us to find and behead it if it was a bunny? A friend of mine suggested telling her that they hunt in packs, and that if we kill it the others will come back seeking revenge. It has been increasingly difficult to not whip this response out.

    The state job is taking a long, long time, but is still very much a possibility. I’ve also been told that the hiring manager is very specifically interested in me, which has given me a very nice ego boost, so yay!

    1. CatCat*

      I would just “LOL, no” to VP lady, say I wanted no further contact from Hellmouth, and then refuse to engage with them anymore.

      1. CatCat*

        And if you want an inspired “take your offer for me to shut up and shove it,” see this, which I go back and read from time-to-time:

        https://abovethelaw.com/2008/05/breaking-a-dramatic-farewell-emailand-proof-of-paul-hastings-layoffs/

        “As for your request for a release, non-disclosure, and non-disparagement agreement in return for three months’ pay, I reject it. Unlike you, I am not just a paid mouthpiece with no independent judgment. I will decide how and to whom to communicate how you have treated me. I find it ironic that you would try to buy the right not to be disparaged after behaving as you have. Your actions speak volumes, and you don’t need much help from me in damaging your reputation.”

        The circumstances are well worth reading too. Overall, she was treated awfully it seems, but damn, she wasn’t going to let them buy it, they needed to own it.

        1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

          Oh, niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice! Thanks for the link–jeezum pete, they do not come across well.

      2. Environmental Compliance*

        Yep. It’s the type of thing where you start laughing hysterically and then go….ohhhh….you were serious. Huh. *long pause* Yeah, no. Nope.

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      L.M.A.O they are trying to hush people up because of their batsh*t life choices. Throw it in the trash and say you’re not interested in their payout that you will go ahead and keep your rights and that you won’t be accepting their “termination” when it was a voluntary option on your side. Just ignore these weirdos.

      This is standard for shady AF operations, it’s their last ditch chance to silence you. They probably are making everyone sign something similar who is still employed as a way to get a “bonus”. It’s usually done under the cloak of a “bonus” and they will terminate anyone who is still employed that refuses to sign it because it’s really not optional like that.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          With a calmer head on my shoulders [for the moment], I do agree that it would be good to keep a copy just for your personal records. I have a file in my email for this kind of nonsense, cleverly saved as “adult nonsense”, including conversations with landlords, etc.

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            Look, I apologize for being a total copycat, but… I totally now have a file named “adult nonsense.” In my defense, it’s too delightful to not steal.

        2. Fibchopkin*

          Seconded! (thirded?) Laugh your ass off at them, refuse to sign, and keep a copy. Side note: I feel like a horrible person, since I definitely do not wished continued contact upon you, but I’m actually selfishly glad that the hellmouth continues to yawn, at least in some form, simply for our continued astonished enjoyment. Your updates (and GUMPTION Girl still has me laughing hysterically from last week) are one of my favorite things about the open threads!

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            Oh my god, she came back more! After I posted today! During business hours this time. I was touring, so apparently she latched onto one of the maintenance workers and was demanding to know if we got the resume that she put in our dropbox. Also, she apparently had flies in her hair. For real!

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Good to hear it’s a standard shady move. I really was not impressed when I sent an email saying “I am concerned that the opening statement says that the company chose to terminate me when I actually put in and served a two weeks notice, and have documentation that corroborates this… ” and she responded “That just means that your employment with Sunnydale Ltd terminated (or ended) on 6.30.2019 – not that you were terminated for performance reasons.” I mean… my employment did not end on 6.30.2019, and I’m also pretty sure that if I sign a legal document which specifically says that I agree that the company “chose to terminate my employment” I’m… agreeing that I didn’t chose to leave?

        1. Troutwaxer*

          I’d imagine that you could make quite a hobby out of discussing this with the VP.

          On a more serious note, it sounds like they think they’re really in some kind of trouble, so you might see what a real settlement would look like. My thinking goes like this: You take your story to an employment lawyer in your state. You say something like, “how much is this worth?” Then you hire him/her on a contingency basis.

        2. HappySnoopy*

          Do not engage. Do not engage. That is all kinds of weird. If you have no obligation, you can just ignore their “generous offer”.

    4. blackcat*

      “Speaking ill of them is kind of worth $109 bucks to me.”
      You have your answer right there.

      Maybe offer a response along the lines of, “Dear VP Lady, I’ve read the paperwork, and I will not be signing it. It contains several inaccuracies, such as that I was fired. I gave notice on [date] that my last day would be [date], and I served out that notice.” I’d ghost on further communications.

      As for the snake, I would totally try to catch it then keep it in a terrarium on my desk for a few days before releasing it. It’s also probably a different snake from the same clutch of eggs if it’s really small (under 6in or so).

    5. Antilles*

      I would not sign away my legal rights for $109. Especially if they’re already misrepresenting the end of your employment because according to that document, you are also agreeing not to contradict them on that.
      Oh, and apparently bloodlust for harmless creatures is a thing at all apartment communities.
      Have read my community NextDoor, can confirm. There are multiple people in my HOA who are pissed that the police are ignoring their calls for immediate armed response to deal with a pair of foxes terrifying panther demons which are bent on destroying humanity that were noted in the neighborhood.

      1. Catsaber*

        LOL how many panthers have stalked the suburbans streets of America?

        When I was living in an apartment, I fed the raccoons that hung out near the dumpster. They were the most polite raccoons ever. (yes yes I know that was a terrible idea but they were cute and I had leftovers)

        1. blackcat*

          I grew up in the Bay Area, and we definitely got a mountain lion (same thing as a panther/cougar) twice (they relocated it far away and it came back). It happens from time to time. And they do stalk the streets, looking for pets to eat :/

          1. blackcat*

            Oh and people were actually super pissed when animal control ultimately killed it. People, man. They want to go after cute little foxes yet will say “Don’t hurt the noble lion [that has shown an affinity for living near people and could totally eat a person].”

            (To be fair to mountain lions, they do not want to eat people. You have to provoke one to get eaten.)

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Okay, this made me laugh so hard, and also I am totally Team Terrifying Panther Demons.

      3. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

        Foxes are annoying in urban contexts, but sheesh. Wildlife exists, people, and not just in state/national parks.

    6. Psyche*

      I would absolutely not sign something that said that I was fired when I quit. And that is such a small amount to try to coerce your with! Add a zero and I would tell them to rephrase the part that said they terminated me.

      As for the snake, how would they even know if it was the same snake? Chances are there is just a second snake.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Oh! And apparently (according to VP lady) “we chose to terminate your employment” doesn’t mean I was fired, it could TOTALLY mean that I quit, and also it absolutely would not be a thing to worry about if anyone every went through them to do an employment check.” Also, I was 100% under the impression that this company was ceasing to exist, sooooo… it was a strange exchange on many levels.

      3. Pilcrow*

        For the whole screwing up future employment checks piece, they would have to add at least 2 zeros, maybe 3, to get me to sign that dreck.

        I’ll second another commenter’s advice for an employment lawyer, just to make sure they don’t mess up your references/employment checks sometime in the future (assuming they still exist).

    7. irene adler*

      It’d take a lot more than $109 to shut me up, if I’d been through your ordeal.
      A lot more.

      Maybe that’s a misplaced decimal in that figure? Probably not. But worth asking. Just to see their response.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Right? Like my rights to sue and talk, er, poop and also probably my soul aren’t even worth four digits? What the heck. I could make at least double that amount with a tell all self-published ebook, and have pizza and beer money sorted for at least two or three months. :D

    8. Veryanon*

      Oh my stars and garters, do not sign that agreement! $109 is insulting. Also the agreement isn’t even factually accurate. I don’t know who they got to draft that, but it sounds like whoever it was didn’t really understand how to draft a separation and release agreement. I’d also tell them you are not interested in any further communications and that if you hear from them again, you’ll contact your attorney.
      GUMPTION Girl sounds downright insane, yikes.
      I would totally go with the snakes revenge explanation.
      I love your posts! Please continue to update us!

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        She’s a taco and an enchilada short of a combination platter. She came back after I posted today! Apparently with flies in her hair, which freaked out the maintenance dude she glommed onto (and for reference, she generally does not look unclean or poorly dressed or anything). She wanted to know if we had gotten the resume that she had put in our dropbox. This would be the 4th or 5th time we’ve gotten her resume since I started working there. I’m working the office alone tomorrow, and if she shows up again I will have to figure out a way to scare her off.

    9. Catsaber*

      $109 is totally worth speaking ill of them and NOT SIGNING THAT BS CONTRACT!!!

      Also, poor snek! I get the dislike for snakes, but really…it’s a garter snake, one of the most harmless snakes alive. I’d go with the army of vengeful snakes story if they push it.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        They have since dramatically announced that they will make their own arrangements to have the snake beheaded. I’m… not sure how they will find him, but okay. We also had someone swear they saw a water moccasin by the pool. I am kind of doubting this.

    10. PB*

      Yeah, don’t sign that. You were not terminated, and (even if you don’t sue) I wouldn’t want to waive that right. And $109? Ha!

    11. Weegie*

      Sounds like they’re trying to sneak in an NDA under the guise of ‘we are nicely choosing to pay you right up to the end of June, even though you left us a little before that’. But I’ve never heard of an NDA that only cost an employer $109! $109,000 might be a bit more like it. Or even $190,000.

      The reference to ‘not speaking ill of them on any platform’ makes me wonder if they have got wind of you writing on here? If so, tell them to get lost – I’m sure your AAM fans will club together and make you a counter-offer of $110 TO KEEP WRITING!

      Continued good wishes for the new job prospect! In the meantime, please keep us entertained with ‘rich people’ stories.

  196. Coco*

    So I have to write a performance improvement plan for one of my direct reports. This is my first time doing one. I searched AAM for advice on writing one but only found advice for the person who is on one.

    Anyone have any good links or advice to share? Thanks in advance!

    1. Argh!*

      Before you write it, can you consult or invent a kind of matrix for assigning numbers or ratings? For example, Outstanding or 5 for punctuality would be always coming in early” and 4 would be almost always being on time, and occasionally early. And 3 would be “satisfactory” – on time most of the time, only late a few times, etc.

      That way you could be more sure of yourself when you assign those rating points.

      Also, google things like “types of biases on performance evaluations.” There are some good lists out there. Harvard Business Review’s performance management articles are also good. Be especially alert to the ways that men and women tend to be evaluated differently, even by women. HBR has some good articles on that, too.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      It will vary drastically on each individual and what their goals are. You want to make sure they’re attainable [not necessarily attainable for THAT person, since everyone varies but attainable for that position level], you want to make sure they have all the resources at their disposal that you’re requesting for them [how can they get things in on time if they’re is a bottle neck person along the way, etc];

  197. Argh!*

    I just learned that a job I’ve had my eye on will be open soon. Very soon. It’s close to my family and far away from my toxic boss. I learned about it just after reading “Living with obsessional personalities” on pubmed. It ends with “It is often found that people with OCPD fare well with those who are either very tolerant and patient, or have a passive, dependent personality (these people avoid conflict, rely on others to make decisions and will not challenge their partners’ ways).”

    I’m not that person!

  198. Lauren*

    UPDATE: Forced Hard Labor Community Day

    I went, we all did EXCEPT the two bosses who conveniently couldn’t make it. Each had to fly to another office. It was fine actually. Not that buggy or hot or hard work at all. We did the swale thing, and I wore protective clothing, and just sat to dig the rocks vs. bent over and squatted. We had lunch on the beach on the island before heading back for drinks and apps. It was fun and interesting, but I still don’t like the idea of doing something that isn’t inclusive to those that can’t do this stuff. There was no discussion about it or anything, so it was just assumed that young people are physically able to do it. We were all very sore afterward, and I did immediately do the tick check and took a thorough shower and combed through my hair a bunch to be sure.

    At least that didn’t have us in the super tick area, instead we were on main walkways – which made a difference to our happiness for the day as everyone just went their own pace.

  199. Mad Meg*

    Text convo with my boss:

    Her: Can I help you on the [chocolate teapots project – due tomorrow]?
    Me: No, I’m all right on that, but have you had a chance to look at [vanilla teapots project (which had a deadline yesterday)]
    Her: No, I’m doing [vanilla teapots project] tomorrow, after [chocolate teapots project] is wrapped up.

    Note: there is literally no task for her to do on chocolate teapots; she’s either not trained or doesn’t have the system access to complete anything. It’s three days later, and she still hasn’t looked at the vanilla teapots project, where she can contribute.

    This is a very normal occurrence – I’ve been very honest/upfront with her about my insane workload. She offers to help (and I clearly state what’s needed + deadlines) and she doesn’t follow through.

    This is more of a rant but I’m open to ideas, including to stop trusting that she’ll do what she says she’s going to do.

    1. Aurion*

      How does the conversation go after your excerpt? You said you’ve been candid about what you need and the deadlines, but you don’t say how she responds to that.

      In your shoes, I would say “I’ve got chocolate teapots handled, and it’s not due for a few days. But I need you to look at vanilla teapots, it was due 3 days ago and needs your input on X, Y, and Z. That’s more urgent”. Now if you’ve tried that already, other strategies might be needed, such as dumping vanilla teapots on her desk a week ahead of the deadline, or even blunter conversations, or…

      It could be that she likes chocolate teapots more than vanilla, or forgot about the vanilla deadlines, or some other reason. But see how she responds to a frank conversation first, if you haven’t tried that.

      1. Psyche*

        I agree. Reiterating deadlines after she says her priorities may help. If the tasks she offs to help with are ones that she does not have training or access to do, is that something that can be changed? Can you train her on the tasks she wants to help with?

  200. Misdemeanor Query*

    Hello smart people, I am hoping you can provide some insight with this question. I’m interviewing for jobs currently. The problem is, back in July I was given two citations for misdemeanors (public intoxication and simple assault). I’m not a violent person by any stretch of the imagination. The man I punched triggered my PTSD, in my mind I thought he was my rapist, and I punched him. If a potential employer runs a background check, I know they won’t find anything because there has yet to be any conviction, but it feels like I would be being deceitful because of the timing. Should I disclose that I’ve been charged but not convicted? Should I disclose that I would need time off to go to the first court appearance? I’m asking in the frame of, they’ve offered me a job and now I’m being asked to consent to a background check.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This depends on your state. We have “ban the box” and can’t ask about criminal history, when someone pops on a check, we can use it against them but we are supposed to give them the chance to explain themselves.

      It depends on your industry and the companies you’re looking into. Lots of places don’t hold these kinds of charges, even if they end in convictions as reasons to deny employment .

      If you are not in a ban the box state and they can ask about criminal past, I wouldn’t ever put your neck out and say that you’re in proceedings, since you dont’ know if they’re going to stick, even if you’re pretty sure they will like it sounds like from your post.

      It’s none of their business until it’s officially on your record and discoverable on your record. Arrests happen all the time and you’re innocent until the conviction is stamped on your record.

  201. Very Anon*

    Help! I just found out a coworker is being fired. How do I handle it when she try to make plans about projects we work on together? I believe she is being told at the end of the day today so I only need to make it though a few hours.

    1. CatCat*

      I’m sorry you’ve been put in this awkward position! I think you just carry on as you normally would have. Deal with any re-shuffling of plans next week.

    2. Jan Levinson*

      I wouldn’t act any differently given it’s only a few hours. You can figure out how to shift plans next week if need be.

    3. Mama Bear*

      This comment should have been up here:

      If you found out before she did, bad form on the part of your management. That’s a terrible situation to be in. You can meet with her and try to get all the info you need, perhaps under the guise of everyone needs to know where everything is/it all needs to be on the network. Not knowing the nature of the projects means it’s a little hard to suggest specifics, but I wouldn’t tell her you know she’s being fired. IMO these kinds of things need to be done early in the day to avoid just this. Good luck.

      1. Very anon*

        I was only told because I supervise her work. However, she does not report to me. Our boss wanted to make sure I have her work covered and wasn’t blindsided if she reacts badly. She has behaved unprofessionally in the past when she received negative feedback.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          This is a good reason to be told about her termination prior to her release. When my department has been downsized or someone has been let go, as the middle-man of sorts, I always get that heads up as well. It’s completely relevant and I’m actually usually required to be in the room for the release, ick. But since she doens’t report to you, yeah no need for that ick step for sure.

          When yo know something is going on, the best thing to do is just try to act normal. It’s not your place to break the news, it won’t be any easier coming from you it’ll actually make her life more difficult. We will have these times when we know bad-things-to-come before the person they directly effect and it’s just one of those things that you have to keep, it’s a secret, so you act cool, you know? Like if you knew a GOOD thing about someone, you wouldn’t spill either. It’s just one of those “not my circus” things and yeah, it stinks to have that weight put on us but thankfully it was only for a little while since you said by end of day and not like “we’re cutting Jane loose in 2 months, have fun just acting normal for that time!”

  202. Pam Beesly*

    I have a coworker who always acts inconvenienced when she has to take a call. Every time anyone calls for her and I let her know, she’ll sigh loudly sigh, say “dad gummit,” “WHY would they be calling for me?”, “I guess I’ll take it if you can’t handle it”, etc. It makes me feel like I’m doing something wrong by literally passing on a call to her when the caller asks for her specifically. It especially makes me mad when she says that she’ll take it “if I can’t handle it.” We have very different jobs with little overlap. When someone calls for her, 99% of the time it’s a call that only she is equipped to deal with (hence, the caller is asking for her in the first place).

    I’ve worked here for four years and am very comfortable talking to her. I’ve asked her multiple times over the years if she’d like me to handle her calls differently. She always says no. To note, she does the same thing to my coworker who takes far more calls than I do (he’s in a primary customer service position; I’m primarily in accounting, but am the secondary customer service person as well.) Since I don’t take to take too many calls, this doesn’t happen to me directly a lot, but I would still say it happens 1-2 times a week. It’s frustrating to deal with on a weekly basis.

    Also to note, we’re rarely swamped to the point of not being able to take a call. (not to mention, this particular coworker spends a lot of time surfing the net, making personal phone calls, and leaving for doctor/dental/vision appointments several times a week.) Which, by the way are all things I WOULD NOT CARE ABOUT, did she not suddenly act busy when she gets a phone call. Even if she truly were busy, I wish she would just politely ask that I transfer the caller to her voicemail instead of acting rude about it like it’s MY fault that she has a call.

    Any advice?

    1. Mama Bear*

      Does she just not like people calling her and being interrupted vs taking the time to interrupt? She hasn’t told you to do anything different, but would it help to take a message and have her return them herself? Or are they all time sensitive and she just needs to deal with it? You might also say, “I know you don’t prefer these calls, but it makes me feel awkward when you react this way. Can we handle the calls a different way?”

      1. Pam Beesly*

        I’ve used the verbiage you suggest before, but she just says, “no, I don’t want to handle the calls in a different way.” When she’s out of the office, I do actually take messages for her to return later, but the problem is that she doesn’t even return the calls (without fail, a couple days later, I’ll get a call from the same person saying “[coworker] never called me back.”)

        So unfortunately, I’m not sure if it’s better to start taking messages ALL the time, or just accept her nastiness when I tell her she has a call to take in the moment. Kind of feels like a lose-lose. Haha.

        1. Brave Little Toaster*

          If I were you, at this point I’d be super flatly unsympathetic to her performatively huffy remarks. I’d also be tempted to throw her under the bus a little bit. Is she a peer or sort of above you in the hierarchy, because that makes a difference.

          Her: “I guess I can take it if you can’t handle it…”
          You: “Well, they’re calling for you. So I’m going to transfer them to you.”

          Caller: “I am calling for MyBusyPants, I left a voicemail and she never called me back.”
          You: “Ok, I can make sure she gets your message again.”
          Caller: “Why didn’t she call me back?!”
          You: ::shrug::

        2. fposte*

          Right, but Mama Bear also suggested asking her directly not to bitch to you (though in not those words, obviously), not just asking if she wants the calls to be handled a different way. Say it sometime when there isn’t a phone call transfer in the offing: “Jane, I know you don’t like calls, but it’s a downer when that gets taken out on me when I’m just the messenger. Could you try to stop complaining to me when I pass you the calls?”

          So far it sounds like you’ve been asking to do something yourself. It’s time to switch to asking her to do something.

  203. Mad Meg*

    Thanks for your response. Once the chocolate teapots project was turned in, she took the credit for it in front of her boss and some stakeholders.

    On the vanilla one, the text noted above was the third time I had reminded her about keeping the project moving. I am remote, so barging into her office isn’t an option – I am resorting to a combo of text, email, cal appts and calls.

    I’ve had frank conversations with her before (re: how much follow up I’m doing to keep her on track, and how much that derails my own work), but haven’t had the “stop offering” conversation. I think I can frame that as, “If the deadline isn’t met, I’m going to take the project back, but cc you/keep you in the loop on everything”

  204. Home Based Worker FTW!*

    There are some great user names here. :) @sydneyellenwade, I’m lookin’ at you.

  205. Mama Bear*

    If you found out before she did, bad form on the part of your management. That’s a terrible situation to be in. You can meet with her and try to get all the info you need, perhaps under the guise of everyone needs to know where everything is/it all needs to be on the network. Not knowing the nature of the projects means it’s a little hard to suggest specifics, but I wouldn’t tell her you know she’s being fired. IMO these kinds of things need to be done early in the day to avoid just this. Good luck.

  206. Sister SOS*

    May be a little late to the party to get suggestions but here goes…how do I support a sibling who’s been job hunting for a year with no success?

    She graduated last August with a finance degree and hasn’t made much headway despite myself and my parents giving her resume help, lining up people for her to network with, finding jobs she can apply to, etc. I truly have NO clue what she is passionate about or what she wants to do, and she refuses to have honest/frank discussions with us about it. My dad even used a connection of his that could basically guarantee her a job and she refused to apply. I’m empathetic to how difficult it is to be a twentysomething recent grad (I’m not much older than her) with no idea what you want to do with your life, but I have no idea how to convince her that 1) she just needs to do SOMETHING, even if it’s not the “perfect” job and 2) if she wants to find a job she’ll enjoy, she actually needs to sit down and identify what she likes, what she’s passionate about, etc. I think youngest child syndrome is playing a role here because my dad seems reluctant to enforce any hard rules or restrictions with her (e.g. getting a weekly report from her on what jobs she has applied to, etc) although he continues to pay her expenses. I’m just truly at a loss for an effective way to help her because she doesn’t seem to want any help, even if it will get her a job, but she’s clearly upset that she’s still unemployed. Any advice would be so welcome.

    1. Havarti*

      You know what they say about leading a horse to water but you can’t make it drink? Your sister is the horse. You can’t make her to anything. I know that’s probably not what you want to hear though. But seriously, she’s an adult. I recommend you remove yourself from this. Keep your visits and phone conversation with family light and loose. Any complaints on either side (“Your sister still won’t apply for a job!” “Dad’s being mean!”) gets met with “Man, that’s rough. [insert subject change to weather, sports, TV shows, etc.]” If they persist with the topic, run: “Anyway, I left the roast in the oven. Love ya! Gotta go!”

      I’ve had to have a serious “Please stop complaining to me about this person’s behavior. I can’t fix it. Go talk to the person instead. And if you won’t and the problem persists, you still need to stop talking to me about it.” conversation at times when people have tried to drag me into their drama.

      Let dad do whatever he wants about enforcing rules or not. Anything you do to involve yourself in this further will likely be seen by your sister as you ganging up on her with the intent of making her miserable. She will either see the light on her own and sort herself out or she won’t. In my case, the people involved finally got jobs but it was rough going for a long while and if I could go back in time, I would’ve said/done things differently.

      1. Sister SOS*

        Thanks — I really needed confirmation that my instinct (to pull myself out of the situation almost completely, save the occasional “man, that’s rough” comment) was correct. My sister lives with my husband & me, so that makes it a little more of a difficult situation to wrap my brain around completely. Thanks for your advice! I’m definitely going to keep that “Please stop complaining to me” line in a note in my phone so I can reference it next time the drama boils over.

        1. Havarti*

          Hold up! She lives with you and not your dad? Ok, that actually changes my advice. So in that case, you and your husband need to figure out what you’re willing to put up with as a team because you don’t want to accidentally strain the marriage if you’re not on the same page. So, things to consider:
          – How long are you willing to keep her in your home? Forever? 6 months? 1 year?
          – Does she do chores around the house while she’s busy not applying to jobs?
          – Do you want her to get a job and stay or get a job and move out?
          – What are the consequences she’ll face if she doesn’t do the thing? And will you actually enforce them?

          While my advice of you can’t ~make~ her do anything still stands, you certainly have more grounds to say “I love you but you have until X date to get a job and find an apartment” or something. Because in a sense both you and dad are enabling her. You give her a roof over her head and dad pays her expenses. She doesn’t need to do anything. Heck, that’s a sweet life if you’re willing to put up with the nagging! But no, someone doesn’t get to sleep under my roof and eat at my table unhappy about being unemployed while simultaneously not applying to jobs. That will not fly. Temp agencies exist, volunteer opportunities exist to get her out of the house if she’s home all day. Can she drive? Does she have access to transportation?

          If you all been turning the thumbscrews a lot recently, maybe back off, take a break, and re-set. You can try just chatting with her in a calm, low-key way about how the real world works, that no job is perfect, that you need to start somewhere. It’s ok if she doesn’t know what she likes or is passionate about. Only in doing can she gain the experience to figure that stuff out. You can do it with kindness and compassion but you need firmness as well. They can be one-sided chats if she’s not willing to speak. Tell her that you love her and want her to be happy and you’ll support her however possible but she needs to start exploring options. And maybe sometimes you ask her what she wants to do and just sit quietly and see if she says anything. You don’t want to crank up the drama and have anything devolve into screaming/crying fests.

          Is your dad complaining to you as an ally or does he see you as undermining his efforts? Something to think about.

          1. Havarti*

            Mid’s post brings up depression as a possibility. You may want to poke around at Captain Awkward’s site or other places like Metafilter’s Ask to see what other people have said on the subject of jobless relatives. Ultimately it’ll boil down to what you and spouse are willing to tolerate. Because you have a right to boundaries and it’s ok to reach a point of “for the sake of my own (mental) health and finances, I can’t keep this arrangement any more.” Put your own oxygen mask on first, etc.

          2. Sister SOS*

            I know it’s a few days later so not much point in replying, but thank you for this. She does pay rent (as in, my dad pays us), and she does spend most of her time at home — she does dishes, walks the dog, etc. She buys her own groceries and contributes some money for any of our groceries she consumes (again, all her money is coming from our dad).

            So she’s not completely mooching off of us, although the amount my dad agreed to pay us for her rent is a bit lower than what we would set if we were renting out her bedroom to the public (heck, I’d even charge a friend more than what she pays us).

            I spoke to her about it the other night and she set some pretty firm boundaries for not wanting to discuss her job search with me, so I’m resolving to leave it alone for now. My dad is definitely looping me into his complaints as an ally, because he’s frustrated. However, I’m starting to realize that I can’t mediate their relationship even if I think they’re both approaching it wrong. It’s hard because I’m both a people pleaser and a fixer – I want them both to be happy and I want this situation resolved. But it’s way outside my paygrade, so to speak.

            So, long story short – thanks for your insight here. It’s been really helpful to reframe my thinking and my approach.

    2. WellRed*

      You and dad need to step back and leave her to it. As long as your Dad pays her expenses, she has no incentive to work. I mean you say she’s upset, but is she?

      1. Psyche*

        Yep. Tough love might help. She needs to get a job, even if it is working retail or food service. That will get old fast and give her more incentive to find a job in her field. Or not. But then it will be solely her problem.

    4. Mid*

      I’m in a similar boat–just graduated, not in a permanent position yet. I’m not sure how you can approach her with this, but possibly working for a temp agency would be helpful–first because they tend to move pretty fast, and second because you can get exposure to a pretty wide range of work in your field/adjacent to your field. I currently temp and have really liked it because it’s helping me figure out what I do and don’t want in a perm position.

      Also, I’d probably just stop talking about her employment with her. She knows she doesn’t have a job, she knows you know, she knows there are resources available to her if she wants, but for whatever reason, she doesn’t want them. I’d be her friend/sister/refuge from the job talk.

      Maybe she’s depressed, or realized she doesn’t want to work in that field at all, or maybe she’s just burnt out from applying to jobs and feeling hopeless. Be her friend/ally–let her talk about the job hunt if she wants, but don’t initiate the conversation. Don’t police her finances or how many jobs she’s applying to. As much as it’s irritating/frustrating you–you’re not bankrolling her, she’s not living on your couch making crumb-sandcastles.

      I’m sure I drive my parents crazy with how I’ve approached my job search. They don’t understand why I’m working for a temp agency, they don’t understand why I didn’t have a job lined up before graduation, etc. They think I’m wasting my life/not doing enough/being lazy. But the single best thing they’ve done for me is to let me know that they’re available as a resource if/when I want it, and otherwise left me alone. (However, I am paying all of my own bills (barely, but I’m paying them).) If your father wants to put conditions on his financial support of your sister, that’s his call, but I’d really truly stay out of it.

  207. Jan Levinson*

    My cubicle mate is moving to a new position at a different office in three weeks and I am SO HAPPY.

    Now, this sounds bad because I actually really like her. She is a kind, hardworking woman who I have got on well with over the past three years. However, she is THE LOUDEST HUMAN EVER. She takes one million calls per day (she’s a salesperson) and speaks at max volume at all times. It’s been an ongoing struggle, and many people in my office have requested to move further away from her over the years. (unfortunately, it’s a small office, so I haven’t had the luxury of moving spots.)

    It will just be nice to have some peace and quiet for the first time in years (not to sound antisocial – it’s the volume of her chatter, not the chatter itself that is so distracting!) Rather than replacing her, we’re having several other salespeople take over her workload, so I don’t have to worry about another loud person coming in.

    1. Catsaber*

      Oh, I feel you. I used to work with a guy who turned the volume all the way up to 11 for every single utterance from his mouth. He absolutely could NOT use an inside voice. Our offices were a floor of a university building with small hallways, so the sound would just bounce around and it was so annoying. Also, he talked incessantly, was a huge jerk, and whatever he was talking about usually consisted of him telling everyone why they were wrong, why the world was wrong, how everyone but him sucked, and how he was the only right person EVER. Such a peach!

      I worked from home 3 out of 5 days at that job and dreaded coming in those 2 days. Now I’m at a job where I don’t telecommute at all, but it’s bliss because That Dude is not around.

  208. CastIrony*

    Anyone have any ideas on how to say, “I’m overwhelmed and am about to lose it, so I need to step away for a minute” without offending anyone at work?

    1. Professional Pup*

      If you mean physically step away, I’m a big fan of “I’m going to step out for a minute and get some air.” Alternatively, you can excuse yourself to go to the bathroom/get some water if you want to be more covert about it. But if you want people to know that you’re overwhelmed, I think it’s better to communicate the specifics of where your issues lie; e.g. “I’m going to step out for a minute and get some air. When I come back, can we dig into why this teapot design isn’t working?” or “There’s a lot going on right now – I’m going to step out for a minute, and when I come back, we can walk through these issues step by step.” I don’t know if that necessarily lines up with what you’re trying to communicate, but I hope it helps.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, I like both of these. I think it’s actually more useful not to go into the how you’re feeling part–just focus on that a break is happening and you’ll be back in a minute.

      2. Mama Bear*

        Or you can suggest that the group tackle x and regroup for y. Sometimes chunking helps vs trying to do it all in one meeting. “I need some time to process y. Can we table that for next week?” A previous company called “bio breaks” (bathroom breaks) to give everyone 5-10 minutes to use the restroom, get coffee, etc.

      3. Mid*

        I think those work better if you’re in a position of power in the situation–like you’re the lead on the project or somehow a decision maker, so you can say things like “when I come back we’re going to do this.”

    2. Psyche*

      It depends on the context. Is it a group meeting or one on one? I would say that if it is one on one you can go with “I have a lot on my plate right now and this is a lot to take in. Do you mind meeting again at (insert time here) to give me time to regroup/to think about this/to schedule everything?”

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      Honestly saying “wow this is a lot to take in right now! I am going to duck out and grab a glass of water, I need a little air.” is just fine in most cases.

      Its’ always acceptable to remove yourself from a stressful situation unless you’ve got someone sliced open on an operating table, you know? It’s better to excuse yourself and take a breather than to just boil and say something you can’t take back!

  209. Beth Jacobs*

    I’m going permanent in what was previously a contract position. Although I’ve promised the job, I still have to apply and interview. Any tips on the cover letter? I mean, they know me, I know them, I know the position.
    I’m thinking of making it a bit – here’s how I’m good at my job and what I like about it. But it’s turning out to be difficult to put on paper.

    1. Mid*

      Talk about your past experience and how it’s made you successful in the role currently. Talk about any accomplishments you’ve made at this current position. I’d also add a little bit of humor, if you think it’s appropriate, because it is a little awkward to apply for a job you currently have. Something along the lines of

      “Dear Hiring Manager,

      [Intro paragraph here.]

      As you can see, I’m very excited to take on [role]. So excited in fact, I feel like I’ve been doing it for the last month! (adjust with the time you’ve been on the contract) My previous work at [job] helped me develop my love of [skill/task] which I’ve expanded on during my time at [contract company.]”

      Then I’d write the rest as if you aren’t currently doing the job, and that you’re applying to the position from outside the company. I think making a semi-light remark about how you’re already there is better than pretending you aren’t currently working in the position you’re applying for, but you should also assume you won’t get the job until you sign the paperwork. So, you should talk about your strengths and how they apply to the specific job duties. I’d also go beyond the job description–use your insider knowledge to your advantage.

  210. light roast*

    Is it normal to not be told job responsibility changes/additions pertaining to you before the rest of the company? This is the third time where I was notified via a company-wide email that I’m now in charge of X. The last 2 times I expressed my frustration in not being notified earlier. Now, since it happened again, I’m questioning if I have the weird expectation.

    1. Havarti*

      Generally if you’re going to be put in charge of X, you have a meeting with your boss and they let you know with the expectation that you will keep quiet about it until the official memo goes out. If you’re finding out at the same time as everyone else, that’s… well, it’s not the best way of doing things, I feel. When you’ve expressed your frustrations previously, was it to your boss? If yes, what did they say?

      1. Mama Bear*

        I think major changes that affect you should be discussed ahead of time. If you are always finding out at the same time, and have not had opportunity to discuss it, then that smells like poor management/communication.

      2. Mid*

        While I agree that it doesn’t seem like a good practice, I wonder if A) the changes are being enacted without your boss’ input and/or 2) you’re one of many, many people in your role, so a mass-email is the best way to make sure everyone is on the same page? Not that either one is a really great reason, but I do think that that would make things slightly less weird overall.

        However, this is a pretty terrible way to do things and seems like a really big hassle for everyone. Are these duties/changes greatly increasing your workload/changing the scope of your work? Are they things that need training to be done? It seems like a great way to have mistakes be made, and to have things missed/forgotten/lost in the shuffle, especially if duties are being transferred from one person to another without notice.

  211. Furious*

    Yesterday, I got a call from a sheriff’s deputy investigating a missing persons report on one of my part-time staff. She’d called in a few days ago and said she couldn’t come in because of a personal emergency, and none of us had seen or heard from her since, but she hadn’t been scheduled to work again until today, so none of us had thought anything of it. Now we’re all worried about her, and I reported the call from the sheriff’s deputy to my boss and our HR department, just in case something awful has happened. Her scheduled shift started about 45 minutes ago, and there’s still no sign of her.

    To top everything off, I just found out that my boss has already started the paperwork to fire her as a no call/no show. I have no words for how furious I am at him right now; she could have been kidnapped, or in a car accident, or otherwise in dire trouble, and he’s already ready to fire her?!? He doesn’t even know her; he works in a different building, has never seen or spoken to her, and has no reason to be making hiring or firing decisions for anyone in my department unless something absolutely dire has happened, anyway. Plus, she was seasonal, and is only with us through the end of August, anyway; there is absolutely no reason to do something so callous to someone who’s been a fabulous employee up until three days ago.

    If anyone has any advice on language I could use with him that won’t get me fired, I’d love to hear it; all I’m coming up with right now are four-letter words.

    1. Professional Pup*

      Is someone’s first no call/no show a fireable offense at your workplace? If so, I’d come at it from the angle that “I understand that what we’d normally do if someone no calls/no shows is terminate their employment, and I’m concerned that there’s more to this situation than that. We obviously don’t have much information right now, but I’d like to get more information before we make a decision about Jane’s employment.”

      1. Furious*

        If they don’t contact us within the first hour of their shift, then technically yes, although they can be reinstated later if it was something like a car accident that prevented them from calling. As far as I know, though, that particular policy’s only been enforced once in the 16 years I’ve worked here, and it was for someone who already had pretty severe performance problems and issues with insubordination.

        Thanks for the script; that’s helpful, and might work.

    2. Not Me*

      What is his reason for wanting to terminate her so hastily? I assume she’s not costing you guys anything in benefits or salary while she’s not working?

      I think I’d start with asking him why he doesn’t want to wait a few more days. Depending on his answer the script might change. If it’s a simple “it’s the policy!” then I’d reply with “There seems to be more going on here than we are currently aware of. I think we should wait a few more days to see if information that would change our decision is brought to our attention. I’ll make a plan to cover her next 2 scheduled shifts in the event she doesn’t arrive or call in.”

      I had a similar situation once where a decision was made to terminate a woman who was *clearly* dealing with domestic violence. In the end we did all we could to extend her employment, but I was still livid that more couldn’t be done.

      1. Furious*

        I’m honestly not sure what’s going on in his head; she’s hourly and doesn’t get benefits, so no, it’s not costing us anything. He’s generally a very nice guy and a great boss, but he gets bizarrely judgmental and weird about some really random things, and that’s the only explanation that I can think of for the way he’s acting right now, that this is somehow triggering one of his rare jerk moments.

        DV is one of the possibilities that’s occurred to me for my staff member, too; she never said or did anything that might indicate she was afraid or worried to go home, but she’s only worked here since late June, so who knows if she would have trusted us with that or not. Also, she and her husband co-own a business, so I’ve been wondering if taking on this job was a way for her to squirrel some money away without him knowing about it. But I have absolutely no reason to think any of that’s the case, other than my imagination running wild and worrying about her; that’s part of what’s so hard about all of this.

    3. Havarti*

      Oh dear, I hope she’s ok. Pup’s script sounds good.
      While your boss is shockingly lacking in empathy, I could see someone in charge following the letter of the termination policy but not the spirit. Your employee was only scheduled to be there for two more weeks. If something bad happened to her (hopefully not the case!), she might not be able to return to normal duties within that time frame so keeping her employed might not make sense to someone like your boss. I suspect my old job would have terminated her after 3 days of no call/no show to comply with policy but set her to “rehire = yes” if they got a call from the police about her being missing. Man, I really hope she’s safe.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Is she someone with access to systems that could be compromised? If so, I can see how he might have to terminate her to get her access revoked. Since you spoke to HR about the call, you might want to follow up with them and ask what they can do in this situation, since no one yet knows what is going on. Could she be given the opportunity to resign? OR is it possible that he does know and can’t tell you? We strongly suspect someone who vanished was actually arrested, but when we were trying to figure out what happened to him, HR told us to stand down. I think they got info we did not have but couldn’t divulge. Could that be the case here?

        1. Furious*

          It’s definitely not an access issue; she used standard front-line staff logins that give access to very limited information, and didn’t even have an email account with us because she was seasonal. Neither he or HR know anything about the situation other than what I’ve told them, based on the phone call I got from him about ten minutes ago.

          (As a side note, I think arrests are public records, at least in the US, so if that’s what was going on with your employee I’m not sure where your HR department was coming from. Maybe it was something else?)

      2. Furious*

        Me, too; I’ve never had anything like this happen to any of my staff before, and I’m at a total loss of what we could do to help. The not knowing is pretty brutal, and I think that’s at least part of what really got me upset.

        You’re probably right about what my boss is thinking, but that whole mindset leaves me pretty cold. I don’t get what the difference is if we keep her on the books for another two weeks as originally planned, if we’re not paying her, anyway, and frankly whatever his issue is, I think the optics with the entire rest of the staff are more important here. “We heard you were missing and maybe dead, so we fired you so we wouldn’t have to pay unemployment insurance on you anymore,” or whatever it is he’s thinking, is not a good look AT ALL.

    4. Mid*

      “Hey [Boss]. I understand your frustration with [employee], however, she had called out with a personal emergency previously, and I’d much rather wait to see what’s going on before moving to terminate. She’s been a stellar employee up until this personal emergency, and her contract is up in two weeks. I would ask that we wait and see whats going on before jumping to termination, especially since she’s a non-benefited, seasonal employee, and her absence hasn’t caused any severe repercussions.” (only if that last part is true, of course.)

    5. Kathenus*

      Maybe also include the angle that since law enforcement is involved now, from a potential perception perspective your organization might not want to be in the position of terminating someone and then having it come out that there was a life event outside of their control that led to it. And that waiting to see what comes out of the investigation isn’t having any negative consequences to the organization now, but that acting hastily might.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      DV is what springs to mind. Since she called in originally to flag a personal emergency then is now MIA, it sounds like she went into hiding perhaps and took herself to a shelter.

      Sadly as someone who has dealt with a lot of hourly and part-time/seasonal etc employees who just simply stop showing up and are terminated under the no-call/no-show clause it’s rarely due to an actual emergency. So you just go through the motions, you just do the paperwork and wash your hands of it. It’s because you need that vacancy in order to hire someone else to fill the spot in most cases, if they hold her job open, they can’t put the job ad up yet and have to start giving people more hours or shifting the schedule around waiting for her to maybe show up or maybe call in with an update. [I see that isn’t the case here but it’s a “system” more than anything and therefore most of the times it has to be followed to the letter of the policy otherwise you may open yourself up for discrimination cases when they see you held this person’s job for an explanation but not the other person who is of different race, national original,etc.]

      Sadly that side is strictly business and yes, it’s somewhat callous but beyond filing a missing person’s report which has already been done, there’s no much else that can be done as an employer, except show sympathy and hopefully think about reinstating her if she does come back and wants to continue employment.

      I’ve had people call in and go MIA and found out later from people [small towns, man] that it was a drug bender or other similar setup. So I always lean towards people choosing to go missing more so than people who are actually in dire circumstances, since usually adults only disappear by choice [unless they are classified as vulnerable individuals, such as someone who is disabled or such].

      I would try to speak with him about his actions just so you can hopefully understand the procedure he is most likely required to do but honestly, it’s pretty much above your paygrade and you may just get stonewalled with “i can’t really talk to you about this, so I have no information for you.” stuff.

      1. Furious*

        It’s not above my pay grade, though; I’m her department head, and although I didn’t emphasize it much in my original post, it’s EXTREMELY unusual for my boss to personally hire or fire anyone below director level (he’s the hearing officer whenever an employee disputes their termination, so he almost can’t be involved in the earlier parts of the process – the two times his predecessor tried it, she got us sued). I have full hiring/firing authority for my staff myself, and this would normally be 100% my decision.

        We’ve learned a few more details, and it’s not sounding good; she apparently started off on a 200-mile trek to her daughter’s house after an argument with her husband, and never made it there (the daughter is the one who filed the police report; the husband seems to believe she’s with the daughter, and the police report is fake somehow?). The two major routes to the daughter’s city both go through twisty mountain roads with a lot of cliffs, so we’re actually hoping she’s in hiding somewhere, and didn’t have a car accident; there are long stretches where there’s no cell phone service, and if you went off the road, you might never get spotted unless someone actually saw you go over. I really, really want her to be holed up in a hotel somewhere, not trapped in her car at the bottom of a canyon (this is also one of those times I wish I didn’t have an overactive imagination).

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh that makes a lot more sense, I didn’t realize that he wasn’t the one who had to fire anyone in particular and that it was your call! Then yeah, nevermind, that’s such a strange overstep and I would approach it as “why did you take the reigns from me on this, what prompted this decision?!” In this way, approach it in the way that he stepped right on your toes, that’s so strange….now I’m really starting to understand your rage =(

          Her husband refuses to believe she’s missing?!?!?!?!?!?!?

          After a fight with her husband?!?!?!??!!??!!??!

          My head is screaming so loudly that he’s done something and she never got in her car. This could be my years of watching 20/20 but this sounds exactly like something I’ve seen on there before.

          1. Furious*

            Good news: she’s alive, and for now, at least, safe. She apparently hopped on the first bus she could find heading out of state, and just didn’t take her cell phone with her. Our local police contacted the PD where she ran to, and they’ve done a wellness check on her & took a statement.

            The bad news: the reason she took off in such a hurry was the fight with her husband. I don’t know any details (and I’m not sure I want to), but the police are calling it domestic violence.

            We’re not likely to see her back to work, at least not for that particular temp job (although I’d re-hire her in a second), but she’s okay & safe for now, and far away from her abuser, which is the important thing. Thank you all for your advice, and letting me vent my worries!

      2. Tim*

        Yeah – the boss being someone with seasonal employees, he’s probably been through this multiple times where there was never any emergency. Maybe this IS different for this person, but per OP the boss doesn’t know her and I’d be really surprised if he hasn’t dealt with this many times before with seasonal employees that OP hasn’t worked with. Is there really much else to do when she only has two weeks of work left and the police have already been notified? Do they not need her for those hours at all? He likely can’t give those hours to anyone else without filing the paperwork. You can run into a LOT of problems just giving someone’s hours away for no documented reason, and no-call no-show is all he has. I’d assume he’s doing it himself and right away because it’s very time-sensitive and will screw over other employees if he doesn’t.

          1. Lilith*

            Man, I wish right now I didn’t listen to so much true crime podcasts. I am not liking where my brain is taking me. Damn you Paul Holes, Billy, Georgia & Karen!

  212. Shiny Swampert*

    SoI’ve got a date this weekend (!!!) and I have a follow up question for if it goes well :)

    So until April, I thought I was straight even though there was a ton of evidence sitting staring at me with a big rainbow sign on saying “YOU’RE NOT STRAIGHT SHINY SWAMPERT!”. In April I finally noticed this and updated my identity to bi.

    On Sunday I have a date with a woman. I’ve already met her and it felt very sparky and we’ve been messaging all week. Some of my team know I’m interested in women (… the lesbians, haha) but most don’t. I’m usually quite open about my life (to a fault probably) but this feels weird. I’ve got a rainbow tote bag and have recently had bi flag nail varnish so the clues are there if you’re looking but I think they’ll be surprised.

    I’m overthinking this, yes? I just see how it goes and mention it if it goes somewhere and not if it doesn’t?

    (Also I’m so excited squeee!!)

      2. Shiny Swampert*

        On re reading that’s not as obvious as I thought. I’m specifically asking about whether/how to come out to people I work with who don’t know that I’m bi. My workplace is very LGBTQ+ friendly but I’m in my 40s and it feels really odd to come out at work for the first time.

        1. Buttons*

          Do you need to? I think when you get a girlfriend it will be obvious! Someone might say “I thought you will straight.” and you will reply with “I am bi”
          Have fun on your date!

          1. Shiny Swampert*

            I mean coming out by sharing the whole “I’ve got a gf” thing, not specifically coming out as bi. They’re intelligent people, I think they can figure it out.

            I think I’m mostly just freaking out about work stuff because quite frankly, as stressful as the idea of telling people in work I have a gf is, it’s less scary to imagine than telling my family :-| that’s a post for if this weekend goes well!!

    2. Mama Bear*

      I would just bring up things as part of normal conversation. To be honest, I really don’t care if Julie has a wife or if John has three girlfriends and six kids as much as I care that they get the work done. But those kinds of things come out naturally. Photos on the desk – who is that? Oh, that’s my husband, stepkids, and pet alligator. So about that Teapot Report… You can also talk to one of your already out coworkers.

      1. Mid*

        Seconding this. While working at one job, I was dating a man, then later was dating a woman. I never “came out” per se, just mentioned “Jack” when we were together, and mentioned “Jill” when we were together and no one seemed to care.

    3. Close Bracket*

      You don’t need to make a big announcement to everybody at work. Just talk about your dates as you would talk about any date, mention their name or use their pronouns or whatnot. If your orientation for some reason comes up at work, be prepared with a couple of scripts of varying degrees of nonchalance—have a script for when you mentioning it casually as something about yourself like your eye color, have a script for in case you need to have a sit down conversation with someone about it, etc. You obviously won’t memorize dozens of scripts for every possible situation, but having thought about something ahead of time will help you come up with words in the moment.

      Good luck, and I hope the date goes well!

    4. CG*

      As a fellow bi, you are overthinking this. :) If it goes somewhere, just feel free to mention/display pictures of your beautiful girlfriend as much as you might if she were instead a handsome boyfriend. No need to call a meeting and declare yourself also attracted to women.

      (No judgment: I have this panic nearly every time I feel promising about any new person, regardless of gender identity. I am trying to be less of a gushy romantic of an oversharer but I am always just so enamored.)

    5. Person from the Resume*

      I agree with that you’re overthinking. Would you normally talk to people in the office about first date? Personally I wouldn’t. Let things happen naturally and if it goes somewhere and you have a girlfriend to talk about, just talk about her naturally. Your co-workers will figure it out. Maybe they’ll be surprised and ask and you just need to say “I’m bi” and move on.

      I do feel you. I realized I was queer in my early 40s. I came out to a few people , but I let the rest figure it out by normal daily interactions and mentions of dates with women. It can be nerve racking in the early days.

      But honestly I feel so much more comfortable now that I understand myself now. Good luck.

    6. Shiny Swampert*

      This is my first date ever, and the first romantic thing to happen since I left my ex husband who I was with for 17 years, so it’s not as easy as “do what you would do if the date was with a man”. I would be similarly clueless :)

      Aaaah it’s just very weird thinking about all this stuff.

    7. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I haven’t ever “come out” to anyone, ever. I just talk about my life and they can put the pieces together.

      If it’s normal to casually chat about your dating life, do it! Don’t overthink it, “oh how did it go, did you like him?” “We hit it off, she’s pretty great! We’ll see how this goes, still new you know!.” Kind of stuff. Just the soft correction there.

      Just like when I randomly chat about how “I spent a lot of time going there when I was younger because my girlfriend and I were doing long distance at the time.” [They’ve met my long term partner at events and know he’s a man]. They put it together.

      Even my own family had to put it together.

      So really, unless you really need some kind of freeing situation, you don’t need to make a thing of coming out at work or anywhere else for that matter.

      1. Shiny Swampert*

        If it’s normal to casually chat about your dating life, do it!
        I don’t honestly know whether it’s normal.

        Most of the team are coupled up. The ones that aren’t, I have no feel for whether they don’t talk about dating because it’s Not Done or because they’re not dating. I feel like no one is understanding my actual question here :( the bi thing adds an extra layer of confusion for me but I don’t know how/whether to talk about dating at all. Comparing it to dating men doesn’t actually help.

        1. Person from the Resume*

          Although it’s a bit hard to tell, i’d bet the culture is not to talk about casual dating at work. It’s really veers into the personal, not professional.

          Just I wouldn’t say I went on a first date this weekend. If you must talk about it I’d instead say I tried a new coffee shop or wherever you went on your date to. Talk about the activity and not about it being a date and all the truly personal details about it.

        2. MoopySwarpet*

          I’m late to this, but I would say there is no need to “come out” at work until you’re ready. I personally, wouldn’t make some big announcement. My private life is my business.

          Also, you’ve said they are very LGBTQ+ and you’ve been “flying colors” so to speak. I doubt if they’re going to be surprised at all. Even if they are surprised that YOU are, I doubt they would make a big deal about it.

          I think you should just talk about it however feel natural to you and be sure to pay really close attention to signs that talking about dating is something that is not done and/or that your sharing is making people uncomfortable.

  213. Effective Immediately*

    Guys, I’ve been interviewing for a job I would absolutely love. As in, it’s my favorite parts of my current job but on a national scale, for an org I really admire.

    It’s a long interview process (I’m currently on round 4), and up until now, the responses were unusually fast: I always knew within 24 hours of my interview if I was moving to the next round.

    They said they’d let me know within a week if I was moving to the final round, but that passed yesterday. I had a work emergency the day of my my recent interview, and unfortunately was still off-kilter going in–I know it showed. So I’m fairly sure I won’t move on, but the lack of closure is killing me.

    I know in most situations, a week isn’t a terribly long amount of time, but the combination of their usual promptness and my less-than-stellar performance is giving me nerves. When should I follow up with them? Can someone make me feel better about the sudden shift from 24 hours to over a week, even though I know empirically it’s not a long time?

    1. merp*

      It might make sense to me that the decision is harder when getting closer to the final stages. Earlier rounds probably still had many people and possibly more cut-and-dry criteria about moving on; perhaps as fewer candidates move forward each time, it becomes more subjective and requires more time to discuss, etc.

      Purely speculation, of course, but it would make sense to me at least.

    2. Psyche*

      I would wait until it has been two weeks to follow up and even then only send one email. I agree that it may be harder to make a decision now that the pool is getting narrower. Or a key person could have been out sick.

    3. Mid*

      I’d wait until AT LEAST Monday, given that they said 1 week. Maybe someone important to the decision-making process is out sick/had an emergency/etc. You should probably wait a full extra week because that seems to be the standard.

      I probably can’t make you feel better, but I thought I *bombed* an interview two weeks ago (I was 20 minutes late because I was given the wrong address AND I spilled coffee on my white blouse AND I said “ummm….” about 1500 times…it was rough) and wasn’t going to hear from them ever again, and actually just got a call back asking me to move to the next round. This isn’t to brag or antyhing, but to show that you’re your own harshest critique, and being slightly off one time, after 3 stellar rounds, probably isn’t going to be that big of a deal to most people. While you might have felt like you were noticably off, you probably weren’t nearly as bad as you think.

      1. Effective Immediately*

        That actually does make me feel a lot better. I hope that’s the case! Thanks!

  214. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

    Accounting school advice
    My daughter has decided to go back to school for accounting. Choices are either a community college or the local adult education. How does she choose?
    Any help appreciated!

    1. De Minimis*

      Community college is probably better since she most likely could transfer the courses to a 4 year program, or else get a certificate/associate’s degree that she could use to get a foot in the door.

      My guess is the adult education courses are more general info for people who just need some basic accounting for something they’re already doing.

    2. Anonymeece*

      Community college.

      Adult education tends to be more informal; if she intends to make this her career, she’ll want to go to the local community college.

    3. Catsaber*

      Community college, as it will almost certainly be accredited and the credits will transfer if she chooses to pursue a 4-year.

      1. YouwantmetodoWHAT?!*

        You need to go to a four year for this? We both thought that she could complete it at the CC.
        This is her 2nd career – she trained to be a chef but after years of one toxic kitchen after another she is done.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          What kind of accounting is she aiming for?

          You can get only so far with an associates but if she’s not looking to be a staff accountant or CPA, then she should be fine with a 2 year.

          You aren’t REQUIRED to have any degree at all unless you want to be a CPA cuz licensing will always require some kind of advanced step like that!

        2. Catsaber*

          I don’t know if you necessarily have to, but there are a lot of 4-year schools that offer a degree in accounting. Many of them (including the one I work at) offer an undergrad + grad 5-year program where you come out with a master’s in accounting.

    5. Farm Girl*

      As someone else said, there are a lot of different layers to accounting, everything from data entry serf to bigwig financial officer or the gal auditing the bigwig.

      Is she just wanting to get her foot on the door of an office job, or is she considering being a capital-A Accountant?

      What are her previous academic credentials? Where I live, “adult education” often means “training for people who didn’t finish high school.”

      The community college probably has someone whose job it is to meet with someone like your daughter and talk about their program and how it fits with her plans.

  215. Fellow Traveler*

    Looking for input about how to effectively communicate with an employer about returning to work soon after having a baby.
    I’m a freelance/ contract worker and I have a gig coming up, due to start the week after I give birth (my third baby). I haven’t told my employer yet, but I will have to before I start because I need to make sure there will be a place for me to pump and also I would like to request a flexible schedule/ work from home when possible so that I can minimize pumping the first week or so.
    Last time I returned to work soon after giving birth was a strange and awkward situation. Two weeks before my due date, I had emailed my boss about pumping accommodations and working from home part time and didn’t hear back. Then I heard from my union rep that my boss had asked her about options to replace me if the birth didn’t go smoothly. And then after the baby was born I got an email from the boss’s assistant saying that I would have to have a doctor’s note to work from home. At no point did I hear from my boss. I got the overall impression that he was not used to working with pregnant employees/ new mothers and that he didn’t quite know how to handle things? Or didn’t have time to handle things himself? I’m not quite sure. I just found the whole thing awkward and frustrating. The reality of returning to work was much smoother than the weeks leading up to it and my project supervisor let me work from home unofficially as much as I needed.
    Anyway, I would like a more open and smooth process this time. I do have a new boss, so that might be a good start. I’m also thinking that I should call to discuss rather than email. I know what I would like to ask, but is there any information I should also be prepared to give my employer or tell them right off the bat so that the situation is not awkward and frustrating like last time? Basically wondering what my boss would like to know and what I can tell them to make them more at ease with an employee returning to work one week post partum?

    1. Mama Bear*

      I would call to discuss it and put whatever was agreed to in writing. Does the office have zero idea that you’re pregnant and due soon? Since you successfully navigated the transition before, I’d lean on that and reference that you were successful with x given y flexibility and are looking forward to working with this company again.

    2. Mid*

      Are you on the same contract/with the same company as last time? You said you have a new boss, but I’m not sure if that means you’re at a new company.

      If you’re at the same company, I’d guess that things will be a bit smoother this time around, because it’s been done before.

      If not, I’d say call to discuss but also get everything in writing after (so call to chat and then send a summary email afterwards, so there are records.)
      If you can see the company handbook/policies, I’d look through that first to see what is officially offered, and base your discussion around that.

      Otherwise, I’d just say “Hello! I’m excited to start on this new project on [date.] Just so you’re aware, I’ll be transitioning from maternity leave at the beginning of the project, and I’d love to find a time to talk about everything.” Then I’d call to discuss what your new boss is able to offer you, and talk about what would best meet your needs. Then send a summary email after saying something like “Thanks so much for chatting earlier, I’m excited to kick off the work on [project]. Just to summarize, I’ll be in the office [hours/days] with access to a pumping room and fridge, and I’ll be working remotely [hours/days] for the first [1/3/7/however many] weeks. After that, we’ll transition to [schedule]. Let me know if you have any questions for me prior to the start date!”

      NOTE: I have never had a child so I’m kind of just guessing about best practices based on what I’ve learned here.

    3. Fikly*

      You may or may not be aware of this, but there are actual back to work coaches who specialize in helping people figure out these conversations, and tons of other things around the whole maternity/back to work/new working mom process. I actually work with some and the ones I work with are awesome!

  216. Mid*

    I’m probably too late to get a response, but I have a few questions.

    1. How do you deal with a job where there is literally nothing to do? Normally I’ll listen to music or something, BUT I’m not allowed to stream music, and I’m not allowed to wear headphones. I’m not allowed to read a book either. I’ve redone all the filing, I’ve cleaned everything, I’ve asked for more work, and nothing. I know there are worse things than getting paid to do nothing, but I’m dying here.

    2. How do you determine office norms when no one is around, except for one coworker who I’m very certain is not within norms (e.g. wears flip flops and tank tops to the office, FaceTime calls her friends while “working”)? I’m rarely actually supervised, but I’d rather not let bad habits take hold.

    3. How many times in a week can you take time off to interview? I’m a temp employee right now, was told it was temp to hire, but that was a lie. I’m doing literally nothing at this job, and honestly, I’m pretty sure I could just leave to interview without taking time off officially and no one would know. (NOT THAT I DO THAT! I always get approval for my time off.) They know I’m a temp, and that I’m interviewing other places. However, I suddenly got a huge rush of interview requests (8 in the next two weeks!!) and I don’t want to seem rude/uncommitted/flakey/irresponsible by taking time off left and right.

    1. Anonymous Educator*

      #1. I usually find something tangentially related to the work and do that. Could be making processes more efficient. Could be learning some Excel tricks or reading up articles on things that aren’t quite my job but in theory could improve my efficiency.

      #2. You say you’re certain your co-worker isn’t within office norms, but office norms can very widely from workplace to workplace. In some workplaces, what your co-worker is doing is perfectly acceptable and normal. Do you have a supervisor? Can you just flat-out ask her about it?

      #3. Considering you’re a temp anyway, I don’t think it’s rude at all to take all the time off to interview. They know you’re temporary, and they know you’re doing job interviews. It’s part of the process. Go for it!

      1. Mid*

        1. Thanks! That helps. I’ve been doing Excel tutorials and learning about gov’t grants. That way I feel like I’m actually doing something all day, not just mindlessly scrolling through Facebook.

        2. I was given a “culture guide” and an official corporate dress code, and the one time flip-flop coworker was in the office with my supervisor, she dressed *very* differently, so I’m guessing it’s not allowed. I technically have a supervisor, but she doesn’t seem to like me honestly, and I’ve only seen her twice in the three weeks I’ve been here.

        3. Thanks!

    2. Alianora*

      1. Tbh, read AAM, practice my handwriting, and doodle. I also used to download ebooks from the library and read those, or books from Project Gutenberg. (Are books not allowed because of optics, or because they just don’t want you entertaining yourself?)

      I did some online trainings too, but if you aren’t allowed to wear headphones it could be harder.

      3. I don’t think it’s irresponsible at all. Take the time you need (although you may be better off clustering the interviews so that it’s a few longer chunks, instead of eight individual requests if you can swing it.)

      1. Mid*

        Oooh my handwriting is terrible, so I like that. And I think optics, but a part of me is wondering if I’m secretly part of some experiment on long term psychological warfare…..so maybe they just want me to be bored and suffer.

        And yeah! I’m trying to cluster everything around my long-standing medical appointment. (I have to see a specialist every 6 months and there’s really no chance of re-booking less than 5 months out, so I’m trying to get as much done on that one day.)

    4. scorpia*

      If you can’t read a physical book, can you find something readable online? I’ve occasionally found royalty-free books online, pasted them into company formatted documents and made it look like I was working on reports while reading Anna Karenina. That, or doing online training related to your job (however tangentially) using MOOCs/subtitled YouTube videos.

      And definitely not irresponsible! Go do those interviews, and may you land a job where you’re not tearing your hair out from boredom.

      1. Mid*

        Thank you! I’m totally using the online book thing–that way I can at least pretend like I’m doing something. And once I download it, I won’t be leaving a “trail” of websites and stuff (because they can totally track my browser and stuff so I feel weird about openly wasting time on the internet.)

        And thanks for helping me get over my weird guilt about interviewing!

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      1. Find another job, they’re absolute tyrants for having you there as decoration and refusing to let you listen to music, wtf. Can you get a radio that plugs in? Can you stream on your phone if it’s not hooked to their wifi? Just wtf at that kind of next level nonsense. I wouldn’t be able to survive even a couple days without music in the background in a frigging office that has nobody else there…wtfffffff.

      2. There aren’t always office norms. This place sounds like a real shell game in action, it’s so bizarre. Just don’t invest any time here!

      3. You’re a temp, so honestly they probably have different rules and expectations for you. So honestly as a temp there’s no acceptable amount of time to take off in most places eyes [you’re halfway out the door in their mind anyways]. So just do what is in your best interest and take time off as needed, if they have an issue, it’s on them to bring it up and set their bar for you.

      1. Mid*

        Right??? I feel like a ficus or a vase or something. I’m not doing any work, so I’m clearly not of use to anyone aside from as a warm body in a chair to…look good? To someone?? Who isn’t actually there??? It’s kind of strange.

        And thank you! All these comments are making me feel a lot better about basically not being invested at all and taking off time to interview as much as possible.

    6. Natalie*

      Honestly, find another job. Been there myself and being bored for that long can actually be very depressing. It’s also not good for your career long term – you’re not learning or growing in your role at all, you won’t have much to talk about in interviews, and you’ll get used to not having much to do which tanks your work ethic.

      To reuse a line I used the last time this came up – even zoo animals that don’t have to hunt for their food get enrichment so they don’t go crazy (or as crazy).

      1. Mid*

        Yeah, I’m actively applying and interviewing everywhere, I just needed to pay the bills in the interim.

        And yes! It’s very depressing. I feel like I would cope better with the boredom if there was at least one other person in the office most of the time, not even to talk, but to like hear noises from another human?? I dunno. I’m not sure if the boredom or the loneliness is worse.

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Also since you’re on your computer and seemingly okay to do things there, do you think there’s any risk in looking at job listings? NGL, I totally had a couple jobs that I used all my downtime to look for jobs but they would never have looked into the history, since I’m the only one who knew how to do that and nobody cared enough.

          1. Mid*

            I’ve been using my phone to comment on AAM mostly, but I think I’ll start job hunting at work. I have been re-writing my resume during work hours, and then using it to apply to jobs when I get home (and saving my edited resumes on Google Drive so I don’t lose access to the files.) While I know they can theoretically see what I’m doing on the computer, I don’t think I really care anymore about what they think. They clearly don’t need me to be there, because there is no work to be done.

  217. stitchinthyme*

    So last week I posted about my recent sudden hearing loss episode and how none of my coworkers except the two I was closest to asked me anything about it. This week a bunch of people did — they just did it in person, not over chat/email. Since my brain seems to have gotten a bit more used to the new situation this week, I’m understanding people a bit better and can at least hold a face-to-face conversation now, and plus the initial shock has passed and I’m in a better mental place and not as inclined to crawl into my hole (office) and hide from everyone. I tend to be the type that withdraws from other people when I’m feeling my worst. So just wanted to say things are better, even though my hearing really isn’t.

    1. scorpia*

      I’m glad things are going a little bit better, and that the conversations happened after you’d had a bit of time to acclimatise. I hope people are understanding and as supportive as they can be.

  218. A Wee Bit Desperate*

    Any advice on surviving the no good, very bad job for just another 3 months? I realized that the job I’m in had A LOT of problems right about the same time I found out that I’m pregnant, and I’ve been trying to stick it out until I go on mat leave, but I’m starting to loose it. My manager is incompetent at managing and at the basics of her job. (A communications professional who cannot change a font in PowerPoint. I am not exaggerating.) So I’m basically doing most of her job, plus mine, plus pieces of an event assistant job even through I’m in Coms, and it was NOT part of the job description when I was hired. I’ve discussed the job description issue, and project planning/”everything is an emergency” issues with my manager multiple times. I just get a variation of “well, that’s how things are here.” I’m totally over worked. They expect me to finish 800+ hours or work on three giant projects before I go on mat leave in three months. When I pointed out that this was physically impossible they said they would hire my mat cover early… and then my manager took so long to get the job posting up that we’ll be very lucky if there is even enough overlap for training. I’ve taken this a level up as well… which at this organization is to the executive director. He nods sympathetically and takes no action. There is also very little support from other staff, who have been coasting at this organization for so long. Currently I am trying to train a member of staff who has been at the organization for 25+ years, but has had no training/professional development in that time on how to properly format a word document so it can be turned into an accessible PDF. I’ve attempted 3 times, and keep having to go back and correct her work/redo the training. This staff member genuinely wants to learn and help. She simply struggles with new tools/skills since she’s had so few opportunities to learn at this organization. It seems like she’s out of practice. I cannot even tell my manager that I’m training her. If I tell my manager, who is also hers, my manager will simply remove the task from this member of staff’s plate and delegate them to someone else. (Probably me.) At an organization this small her approach is not feasible in so many ways. (We’ve had this issue, and this response from my manager before, so I know how this will play out. She wont let this member of staff go either. The required severance pay would be too much.) But the end is in sight… how do I keep my sanity for another three months?

    1. Kathleen_A*

      Alison has suggested looking at these situations with a detached, animals-in-the-zoo way or it an “This will make such a GREAT story once I’m outta this joint!” way.

      As for the 800 gajillion hours’ worth of projects, well, that’s just not possible. You do what you can do, and guess who’s going to have to figure out the rest? Somebody else besides you, yaaaaaay!

      Because once you’re no longer having to deal with it, the PowerPoint font thing will be pretty hilarious. If you can detach to that extent, at least some of your time will go by pretty quickly, now that the end is in sight.

    2. Kathenus*

      Be open and clear about what you can accomplish then hold to it. ‘I have projects A, B, C, and D pending, I can finish two this week. I’m prioritizing A and B, if you prefer a different prioritization let me know.’ Then if they say you have to do it all must channel Alison’s matter of factness that ‘of course that’s not possible, but I’ll get to them as I can in my normal workweek’. Having emails to back this up can be helpful as well.

    3. scorpia*

      I used to work for an IT manager who didn’t know how to edit a PDF, so I feel your pain. I think the other commentors’ suggestions are probably your best bet- be up front about how much you can do, ask them what they’d like you to prioritise, and keep reiterating (ideally in written/email format) how much you can and will do, and which projects you’re mainly working on. Best of luck.

  219. Kathleen_A*

    Hoo-boy, the day has flown by, which means I’m posting this so late that I may not get any/many responses. But oh, well – let’s give it a try.

    People are so weird about free food, aren’t they? I work for an organization that gives away free popcorn at a local festival. The festival goes on for days and days, and we give out the popcorn every day of it. Our only rules (which are posted) are that (1) the popcorn is given out only between the hours of X-Y (because otherwise, we’d go INSANE and possibly broke); (2) free-popcorn aficionados must wait their turn in line (sometimes there is no line, usually there’s a short line, and sometimes there’s an IMMENSE line); and (3) it’s one bag per person, although we make an exception for people fetching bags for people who have mobility issues. You can get a free bag more than once so long as you wait in line each time – we don’t say things like, “You just got popcorn an hour ago. No more popcorn for you!” If you wait in line, you can get a bag of popcorn, even if you just did so 20 minutes earlier.

    (It is pretty darn good popcorn, BTW.)

    The people who try to get popcorn early or late don’t bother me much, so long as they’re polite about it. I mean, it is good popcorn, and it is free, and not many things at the festival are free, so I understand why people might be disappointed if they missed out due to getting to our booth a half-hour early or late.

    The ones that bother me a lot, though, are those that get snippy about the one-bag-per-person rule, particularly when there’s a long line behind them of other people all waiting in line for their one free bag of popcorn. “I just want a second one for my son/mother/husband,” they’ll say. “I’m sorry, but it’s one bag per person,” we say. “But he’s/she’s right there,” they’ll say, pointing to some presumably nearby location – as thought their loved one’s nearness changes things somehow. “I’m sorry,” we say, “but it’s one bag per person.” “But he’s/she’s right there,” they’ll say again. “I’m sorry, but look at how many people are waiting behind you,” we say. “But he’s/she’s right there,” they say, pointing again. “Then why didn’t he/she wait in line him/herself?” we *don’t* say, though we really want to.

    And the ones who reeeeeeeeally annoy me are those who seem to feel completely entitled to that dang free popcorn. There was one woman who, a couple of times/day for 2-3 days in a row, came up multiple times to get free popcorn with a different story about the multiple mobility-impaired people she had to get popcorn for – it was 2-3 people each time, and it was a different sad story every time. Maybe true…but probably not. There was the family of – no kidding – 8 who felt they deserved 8 bags of free popcorn because one of them had waited in line. (I gave in that time because it seemed like the only way to prevent a long argument that was going to clog up a very long line, but I was not happy about it.) There was the woman who wanted 40 (?!?!) bags of popcorn for her child’s drill team. The answer to that one was “No.” “But what are those kids supposed to eat?” she snapped. “Did you really bring 40 middle-schoolers to a festival and give no thought to how you were going to feed them? Was a bag of free popcorn a good contingency plan?” we thought but didn’t say.

    I guess I don’t really have a question, but if anybody can offer a script/signage/magic spell that might cut down on some of those “But he’s/she’s right there” conversations, I’d be grateful. I don’t think a need a script for the 40-bags lady, though, because come on, that’s just ridiculous.

    3. Zombie Unicorn*

      You need to start serving the next person. I know that sounds harsh! But you don’t have to be a captive audience.

      1. valentine*

        Yes. Start calling, “Next!” Turn to the next person. The line will be on your side.

        Stop arguing. When they point to someone? Brightly say, “They can get in line, too!” Have a chair in front for people with mobility issues and anyone with their own chair or who can’t sit in your chair goes to the front of the line. Or one second bag for someone fetching.

      2. Wishing You Well*

        Yes, disengage. Say,”Next!” or “Next in line, please.” Other food vendors have no problem saying this.
        And I wish people were nicer for free popcorn. Sorry.

    4. Havarti*

      Yikes. Yes, people get very… interesting around free food. The good news is nothing you say or do will stop people from making your life hell over free popcorn. Put up a nice big sign that says “One bag per person in line” if you don’t have one already and anyone that argues, you point to the sign and say “Policy is one bag per person. If you want to get another bag, you can get back in line. Now please move and make room for the next person. Thank you.” Rinse and repeat. Anyone who brings 40 kids to a festival without plans to feed them is so far beyond ridiculous, I can’t even.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I internally laugh at their audacity, that helps deflect any personal damage some people may feel by dealing with such crude individuals.

      I would keep it short and sweet. “Sorry, it’s one bag per person.” “Yeah sorry to hear that but it’s one bag per person.” “You’ll need to bring them over here and stand in line if they want a bag, it’s one bag per person.” “I don’t make the rules, I just have to follow them.” is also my go-to in the end when they keep going. “no there’s nobody here that has the authority to change the rule. I’m going to need to ask you to step aside since we cannot give you more than your one bag. I need to get other people served.”

      40 kids? You know their parents most likely did send them with lunch money so that’s such a load of BS, I would fight myself hard on not snapping at that one. In the end it’s the go to of “not my problem.” aka “Only one bag per person, so if they come and stand over here, we could rustle them up some but it’s one person per person.”

    6. T. Boone Pickens*

      Repeat, “Sorry, one bag per person” feel free to turn your pockets inside out like the Monopoly Man chance cards. If pressed, smirk and say, “Neat.”

  220. Decima Dewey*

    I’m in charge this week. Monday I hear shrieking coming from the circulation desk. A baby mouse dashed out from somewhere, and the circulation assistants (Mafalda, Clea, Cher, and Nevada) all scream for Milhouse, the guard, to kill me. Milhouse objects that he’s a guard, not an exterminator. Mafalda, it turns out, has a phobia when it comes to mice. Milhouse finds a dead baby mouse in a glue trap, shows it to Mafalda, who runs out of the branch. Millhouse is sorry he didn’t record it. He thinks it’s funny. Okay, I email Great Grandboss to get an actual exterminator out here. I get a response saying exterminator will be out that day or early the next morning. No sign of the exterminator that day.

    On Tuesday afternoon, a live baby mouse runs over Cher’s feet. Exterminator has not appeared. I contact Great Grandboss to reiterate our request for an exterminator. Cher is covering the circulation desk from a table a couple of yards away, won’t accept my offer to cover the desk. (I’m not afraid of mice, and there’s supposed to be someone at the desk at all times while we’re open). Mafalda pleads anxiety and asks to leave 2 hours early.

    Exterminator finally shows up on Wednesday. Mafalda calls and says she’s not coming in. Exterminator puts down poison and glue traps, . He also puts down a snap trap meant for a rat (all he had on him) and tells us that if we hear it snap, to tell Milhouse, because dead baby mouse in trap would not be a pretty sight. Nevada bails at 3 pm, saying something to me about a family emergency . All she says to her coworkers is “gotta go!”

    Side note: another branch has excitement of its own. It’s a block away from the multihour police standoff in Philadelphia’s Nicetown neighborhood. Aurora, the guard at that branch, stays at the branch until after 11 pm (the branch closed at 5 pm) so the police can have access.

    Thursday Mafalda calls again to say she’s not coming in. Grandboss equivalent sends us help.

    Everything’s back to seminormal today. Mr Lastname is back on Monday, and I’m off for the week, so any mouse drama then is not my circus, not my monkeys.

    1. Asenath*

      We have a mouse problem from time to time. One of the half-dozen or so workers who are usually in our little corner of the work universe is absolutely phobic about small furry animals. Guess whose office generally gets the most attention from mice? At least our pest control people are faster to respond than yours are!

      1. SarahKay*

        We had mice in our office about a year ago. I was working late and heard a rustling, and tracked it down to a mouse busily climbing around – on the desk of the generally rather useless Facilities manager! You can bet that was one facilities task that did get fixed properly; the exterminators were on site within hours of me reporting it.

  221. Captain James T. Kirk*

    Is there any good way to tell your boss that you’re not doing her child’s homework for her? I’d prefer to keep my job, but not at the cost of my ethics. Right now I’m hoping she’ll forget she said she was going to have me do it, but I need a response that doesn’t involve laughing incredulously.

    1. Catsaber*

      It’s plagiarism and the teacher WILL find out, and the student will suffer the penalties.

      And, seriously??? Did she say it as a joke or was she serious? What age is her child? Why on earth would she expect you to do her child’s homework? (I’m incredulous, but I had a director years ago that would pull shit like this, and unbeknownst to me for a while, had me working on graphic design projects for her pet nonprofit while on the clock at my actual job – so I wasn’t getting compensated, and it was a conflict of interest for her. So I wouldn’t put it past certain people to do this.)

    2. Havarti*

      W A T
      Is this the only banana-crackers nonsense your boss is engaging in or the mere tip of the iceberg?
      “I’m sorry, that won’t be possible.”

    3. Auntie Social*

      Teachers aren’t stupid. They know when an adult has done a kid’s homework or project, because they know the ability of the age of the kids in their class. Seriously, they KNOW. Plus, a kid will quickly start to expect someone else to do anything hard. And then he’ll be claiming to be on an imaginary HS water polo team in order to buy his way into college.

    4. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I would tell her that you simply aren’t equip to do the homework and that it’ll be obvious to the teacher that it’s been done by someone other than the child.

      I’m highly intelligent and did fine enough in school but right now, almost 20 years removed from homework, like heck I could ever do anything short of maybe a research project and that’s a stretch to say the least.

      Did she not even pay attention to the college admittance scandal!? This isn’t the same level but it’s still exactly what will get your kid in deep trouble and ruin their chances at college later on.

    6. Wandering*

      I had reasonable luck with telling the boss that no, I wouldn’t type up his wife’s homework for her. He protested that the computer did all the work, so it was no imposition. In that case, I said, the computer can do the work directly for her without my help. He stared at me for a while, but stopped asking… You could try telling her that the kid won’t learn the material if you do the work.

      Good luck with your boss; I’d agree that it may be time to look for a new job.

  222. BelleMorte*

    What do people use for managing multiple project progress across teams? I know there seems to be an overwhelming amount of programs or processes out there right now. Can anyone suggest what works for them?

    1. Catsaber*

      My IT department uses ServiceNow’s project module. We use ServiceNow as our main ticketing system. It’s a little clunky sometimes, but it’s great to have all the information in a central location, using a tool we already have and are familiar with, that is used by the entire organization.

    2. Clever username goes here*

      Asana works well – helps track and assign tasks with projects. You can add dependencies, milestones and view the whole thing as different visual formats (timeline, dashboard, workload, etc).

  223. Ink*

    Does anyone here work in government and have opinions on tattoos in the workplace? I’m a graduate student right now, and I study urban planning and GIS while working on campus as a GIS tech. The button up uniform shirt I wear has short sleeves for a short sleeve shirt, so as a result, the bottom of my large shoulder tattoo is visible. Nobody in management or administration cares about this, so it isn’t a problem for this job, but what about working for most local governments? I can make sure to get sleeves that comfortably reach the elbow, and that would keep my ink covered, but do I need to? Do planning departments in coastal California (where I live now) or Seattle or Portland (where I want to live) generally care? What about other American big cities like Boston, Chicago, or NYC? What if I start getting tattoos under the elbow (I would like to do sleeves if I can)? I don’t drive, so I can’t take a job in rural America, so it’s big cities I’m really worried about.

    1. Snickerdoodle*

      I work for a state agency in my state capital, and several of my coworkers have tattoos that are visible. They aren’t inappropriate and nobody ever says anything, but they’re also easily covered if need be for a public meeting or something.

    2. anongradstudent*

      I work in govt right now and see tons of people with tattoos. It’s a state gov agency if that changes things, and I live in a fairly liberal town, but I think people are getting much more accommodating of tattoos these days. As long as your sleeves are regularly covered I think you’ll be fine.

    3. Kathleen_A*

      I don’t work in government, but I see quite a few government people in the course of my duties, and a tattoo protruding slightly below a short sleeve almost certainly wouldn’t be a problem.

      A full sleeve might be though – I say that just because I’ve never seen any government person with one. I live in a fairly conservative city in the Midwest, though, so it might be different elsewhere.

    4. scorpia*

      I work in government, and my manager has a full sleeve, distinctly early 00’s goth tattoo on her right arm (think Bebo/MySpace aesthetics), as well as one on the arch of her foot, both of which are clearly visible in most of her summer outfits. Beyond the odd “hey, cool tattoo,” no one’s really commented.

    5. Zona the Great*

      State Agency employee now — Tattoos galore; former government employee at many different levels and agencies — tattoos galore.

    6. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I imagine it may depend on the department itself but I know government workers in Seattle/Portland that have tattoos and it’s not an issue.

    7. Tabby Baltimore*

      I work for the feds, and in the various agency offices of our buildings, I see tattoos every single day, on men and women, on legs/ankles/feet and arms (half- and full sleeves)/hands/fingers and on the neck. (Haven’t seen anyone with face tattoos yet, but I’m sure it’s just a matter of time before I do.) I can’t tell you with 100% certainty that their managers don’t care, but I think if a manager ANYWHERE in my agency made a stink about it, we’d all know in record time. The federal and state governments’ hiring practices normally try pretty consistently to conduct the fairest hiring process possible, so are likely to discount the importance of tattoos/piercings (except in some special circumstances, perhaps, but those exceptions would probably be laid out in a vacancy announcement). Most good hiring managers at the state and federal levels are generally much more interested in a candidate’s education, training, skills, experience and decision-making.

    8. Arctic*

      Worked in government in Boston which is probably a relatively lower case-c conservative city compared to Seattle or Portland. Definitely know lots of people with tattoos. Here I think a full sleeve might give pause here, though. But the trend is clearly going towards acceptance.

    9. LCL*

      Seattle? You’ll stand out more if you don’t have any visible ink. The only precaution is, again, when you are at home and not on the company network, do a search for hate group tattoos. You wouldn’t want to get anything that has been adopted by the creeps. EG- A lightning bolt would be a fitting tattoo for someone in my profession, but I won’t ever get one.

      1. Ink*

        I’m careful to keep my tattoos tasteful. The only thing that might cause me trouble is a tattoo of my graduate school’s LGBT Pride flag recoloration of the school mascot, and that’s a tattoo I’m considering, not one I have at the moment.

        Right now, my tattoo motifs are maps and compasses (my undergraduate degree is in Geography and a travel a lot) and bears and redwoods (I was born and raised in California and grew up camping in the coastal redwood forests).

  224. Zephy*

    My boss approached me about moving up into an advisor role from my current position as a coordinator. It’s not the first time she asked…but last time she asked, I’d been a coordinator for all of six weeks, so my response at the time was “I’m flattered but I don’t think I’m ready.” Now, I’ve been a coordinator for a year, I have a better sense of how the department works, and I think I can handle the challenges that come with being an advisor. Boss and Co-Boss also think it’ll be much easier to get approval to promote me and backfill my position, given their struggles with hiring advisors (which they’ve been trying to do basically all year). So uh, that’s a thing! Comes with a $5k pay bump and a title that other universities will recognize, if and when I want to move on from this place. I know I’m going to have to keep prodding my boss to get that ball rolling, and I have also just put in for a week’s vacation in October. The promotion shouldn’t interfere with the vacation, and I hope it doesn’t because I’m very excited for it, but I’m running a bit low on capital right now so I’m not sure how much I can pester Boss about either of those things without jeopardizing one or both of them. She’s not the petty retaliatory type, but the people she has to bother on my behalf can be.

    1. Kiwiii*

      Since she’s the one who has approached you about it both times, it shouldn’t affect your ability to go on vacation. Also, if it gets the ball rolling very very slowly, it may be that most things will happen after October anyway.

      1. Zephy*

        Yeah, I mean, it’s higher ed. Everything moves at a snail’s pace, and I’m sure nothing is going to happen until well after the start of the term (which is a couple weeks out yet anyway). October is probably the soonest that conversation can even start with TPTB, but the same person has the final say-so on both the promotion and the vacation and it feels…disingenuous? to be asking for both at basically the same time.

  225. Snickerdoodle*

    What do you do about passive aggressive notes in the workplace? I either ignore them or tear them down and throw them away, but recently I saw a more aggressive note that made me wonder.

    A few weeks ago, somebody at my workplace was kind enough to bring a small, decorative box from home and leave it in the women’s restroom stocked with tampons, mini lotions, etc. Somewhat predictably, not only was the box quickly emptied, but it also didn’t take long for the box to go missing. The other day, I walked into the restroom and saw this note taped to the countertop:

    “My box has gone missing. I’ve brought tampon’s [sic], etc. to restock the box. BRING BACK MY BOX.

    “The toiletries are for all of us to share – especially in an emergency! They are not for one person alone. BRING BACK MY BOX.

    “Would you like to chat?

    “Call me – [name, number]”

    The repeated bolded “bring back my box” and basically “Come at me bro” at the end struck me as fairly inappropriate (especially if it were seen by a client–people from the state legislature visit our building). I removed the note from the counter and handed it over to management and said that I wasn’t the culprit but didn’t appreciate the confrontational tone and requested they address it with the person who left the note. Nothing has happened so far and probably won’t, but, knowing that some passive aggressive notes are overly aggressive to the point of unprofessionalism, how should that be handled?

    1. Havarti*

      This is why we can’t have nice things. I mean, I think handing the note over to management is about all you could do if the person leaving the notes doesn’t report to you. The person erred by bringing in a box they weren’t willing to lose and assuming that… what? other people would restock it? Ha! That’s the sort of thing you do in the guest powder room in your own home. I wouldn’t even entertain the thought of confronting them. It would not end well.

    2. ginkgo*

      I have no advice, but I just have to say that that note A) is HILARIOUS and 2B) reminds me of Hopkin Green Frog (which Know Your Meme tells me is from September 2003, hot dang I’m old).

      PS. I’ll find my frog
      Who took my frog
      Who found my frog

    3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      This person is extra. You brought a personal item and left it in the restroom, yes it was thoughtful of you but it comes with the risk that it’s going to be gone at some point. How does she know that the cleaning crew didn’t toss it when they saw it was empty? Some cleaning crews are instructed to remove everything from the counters, so if it just shows up one day, they’re going to dump it even though it looks pretty, it’s not supposed to be there so it should be removed, etc.

      I remove all notes that are unnecessary. So unless it’s just a helpful “Hey, this toilet clogs easily, you’ll want to check behind you before you leave the stall! =D” or such, whatever that can stay. The rude ones though, they go in the trash. Usually on top so that they can be seen as “this is trash” if anyone is all “I wonder where my sign went!” It went in the trash, were it and your attitude problem belongs, sis!

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        Ha! I like the passive aggressive retaliation to passive aggression. And yeah, I thought that maybe the box broke or something, or maybe somebody had taken it away to restock it, not necessarily outright theft. The over-the-top demand to replace it was my first and only clue that anything else had happened. EXTRA is right.

    4. Lilith*

      Welp, i understand being pissed off about her missing container especially when she was doing a nice thing for the office. She didn’t think it through but how many of us would have? Yes she could have used a basket she was willing to sacrifice along with products she could afford to see go to one person, and she could have asked nicely for her box back with a couple of sad faces on the note instead. But, crikey, what she did do initially was nice.

    5. LCL*

      I don’t necessarily hate these kinds of notes, as long as they aren’t anonymous and aren’t threatening and aren’t too unreasonable. This particular note I like, and say good on her. I have no problem removing notes I think are offensive or inflammatory. Though I did get a minor lecture for removing an anonymous note left by our resident control freak.

    6. big X*

      Why are you calling this note passive aggressive? They signed it with their name and number and asked for their box back – there is nothing passive about it, for sure, but I wouldn’t call it aggressive either.

      Only because this is a client-used restroom, I would say this is out of line because it’s airing the dirty laundry of the office (seemingly inter-office theft) and not a good look. Disclaimer: if this was just an employee-only bathroom, I would say this was ok to do – there is really nothing wrong with the note considering the circumstances. I know you perceived it as aggressive but it’s whatever to me since I would probably also be as upset as note-writer if that happened. I don’t know if I would have turned the note into management as that would be involving myself more than I want to in the situation. I would have taken it down and been done with it.

      Overall, while the sentiment is nice, things left out in public do go missing and that’s par for the course. Honestly, the custodian probably just threw it away depending on how the box looks or if it got messed up.

      1. Snickerdoodle*

        It struck me as inappropriate because of the repeated, bolded demand to “bring back my box” and the “would you like to chat?” which was fairly confrontational. “Please replace the box that was on the counter” would have been a lot more neutral if exactly as ineffective.

  226. Antisocial Butterfly*

    Tl;dr I work in a sexist industry and my coworker is acting like my boss.

    This is my first time commenting here, and even though I know this blog deals with mostly white-collar situations I’m hoping that somebody can give me some perspective on dealing with a situation that’s come up at my blue-collar job. A job that I took, ironically, to avoid these types of situations.

    Due to pretty bad childhood trauma related anxiety I pretty much can’t do lot of interpersonal interaction and communication — I’m not good at the subtle nuances, and more than a little at a time stresses me past the breaking point. I’ve figured out that it’s not something that’s going to go away with a little therapy, and that I’m better off avoiding jobs that require a lot of communication (in person, email, doesn’t matter). That’s why, even though I have a college degree, I work as a fabrication welder in a factory. I like this work for the most part because it pays pretty well, (comparable to paralegals, nurses, and librarians, around here), because I can work on my own and not interact socially or at all most of the time, and because I can use noise cancelling foam earbuds to listen to audiobooks, lecture, and language lessons all shift, which to me is like being paid to go back to school, without all of the anxiety-inducing interaction that happened at college. This is the best job I’ve had so far, except…
    I’m the only woman in the department, and the men of Teapot Weld are very sexist (I have been informed that when they were told I was coming to join them a couple of them got very angry and said “Women don’t belong back here.”)
    Four of them (including the ones who blatantly said women don’t belong) literally do not speak to me or acknowledge me in any way. They stare at me and walk away if I say something. If there’s something simple they should say to or ask of me, they will go to “Mike,” the team lead, instead. One of them makes a point of pushing past me and helping himself to supplies from my table. He will make eye contact and grin but not say “please,” “thank you,” or “excuse me.” The other three will actually talk to me on a limited basis if we’re alone, but act exactly like the other four when they are around. So when the little band of brothers is all together, they function as a cohesive if fractious unit, in relation to which I do not exist. They’ve also engaged in various attempts to sabotage me which are too ridiculous to get into here (think feeding me false information, or raising spurious quality concerns over everything I did). I am not imagining this, and it is not my fault. I know I stated above that I’m not outgoing or good at interacting, but I do the basics. They’re going far above and beyond awkwardness or introversion. They have literally stated their sexism, and people whom I trust have confirmed that they are trying to drive me out.

    Mike, the team lead, is the only one who treats me like a sentient being, which I guess is fortunate for me. I can tell that he is going out of his way to sort of insulate me from these guys behavior. He has said that he wishes they would be more like me because I show up, do my work, and don’t whine and complain. (They all argue and compete over who gets to weld the easiest teapots.) Most of the team assembles teapots, while “Joe” (one of the three who speaks to me on a limited basis) and I weld up the spouts that go on the teapots. Normally, at the beginning of the shift, Mike tells the teapot welders what teapots are needed, and they start to fight, and he arbitrates their disputes, and then he shows Joe and me what spouts they will need and asks how we’d like to divvy it up, and there are no fights because I don’t make a fuss about taking on the hardest spouts if Joe doesn’t want them. BUT we always agree on it jointly — and Joe has the exact same job as me and no seniority. I’ve been both with the company, and in the department, a bit longer than Joe. Once we figure out what’s going to be built, we work pretty independently, which is what makes this job pretty bearable overall, for someone like me. I don’t need to be friends with my coworkers. I don’t much mind being in the proximity of sexists who don’t want me there, don’t even mind that when they’re avoiding work they frequently gather into groups to point at me, say god knows what, and then laugh uproariously (they only ignore me as a human — they’re apparently prepared to acknowledge me as an object). As long as I don’t actually have to deal with them much, fuck them.
    Well on Thursday Mike was out for the day.
    After milling around for a while in the absence of leadership, everyone decided to get to work, and the guys who weld teapots apparently fought it out and then immediately started telling Joe — not me of course, because I don’t exist to the group — what spouts they needed. I edged up next to Joe and asked questions while this was going on, and was stared at and then smirkingly ignored, as usual. (I couldn’t actually hear what they were saying to him if they didn’t include me because this is a loud environment and everyone is wearing foam earplugs. You have to stand very close to someone to communicate, or else yell, and even then “What?” is the most common word in the building.) When Joe had written down how many of which types of spouts we needed, he proceeded to add up the totals laboriously and divide the list in half while ostentatiously concealing his pad from me and continuing to ignore me, and then turned and told me what to build. (The others had dispersed, at this point, so I guess that made it ok for him to speak to me.) I was so furious.
    This is a blatant power play, right? Even given that he had all the information about what we needed, because the others don’t speak to me, he didn’t say “Here’s what we need, would you like to split it up this way?” or “Please,” or anything other than “Do this.” At several points throughout the night, the other men discovered that they needed some special spouts — and of course they came and communicated this to Joe, and Joe decided how to solve the problem, issuing me another order if necessary, and I was left not even knowing what was going on with teapot welding in general, all night. The way I reacted to him ordering me around, incidentally, was to look at him and say “What?” He would ignore this and walk off. Meaning that they essentially won. I just couldn’t think of any way to fight back in the moment that wouldn’t look childish and give them a chance to get rid of me altogether, so I ended up doing what he wanted.
    I’m afraid that wherever bring this up it will be twisted into “Oh, we’re so sorry they hurt your feelings by not being nice to you — but they’re just dumb guys and can’t help it.” Obviously, it’s not about my feelings and I don’t even want these sexist oafs to like me or be nice to me. I want them to treat me like a human being, with whom they are working. And they know perfectly well what they are doing.
    Also the way he divided up the work might not have been inherently been unfair; for all I know, it might have been favorable to me. So they’ll question why I had a problem with it, or imply that I just don’t want to work full stop. Frankly, Teapot Weld comprises the most jaw-droppingly work-averse set of humans I have ever seen in my life, but they all “know” that they work hard because they are Strong Men, and women are lazy, weak, and stupid.
    I’m off for the weekend now, because we work four-day weeks (one of the things I like) and I have till Monday to think of how to address this, because Mike is going to be gone every Thursday for quite a while. And I don’t know how. It doesn’t help that this is not a very professional space; a rehearsed, polished script of the sort this blog normally comes up with is likely to get a “huh?” To even talk to anyone effectively I would have to ask them to step into a quiet space, which immediately puts the burden on me to say something good and I know my mind will go blank.
    What do I do here? Try to somehow address this with all the men, individually? (No way am I addressing them as a group). How do I even address what are essentially a bunch of hostile sexists who communicate on a fourth grade level and don’t acknowledge my existence? Do I confront just Joe? Speak to Mike and clarify that Joe is not in charge of me, and that the men should be expected to communicate the minimum of necessary information to me instead of ignoring me completely? Or somehow assert myself in some subtle, clever way that I can’t think of, and probably won’t be able to pull off anyway?

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re breaking the e’fing law and you are in the right to report them. This isn’t your battle to try to fix yourself, they’re clearly disregarding you as a human due to your gender. So you need to start documenting all the incidents and take it to whomever handles HR. And then a lawyer. Run these goons out of town on the back of lawsuit.

      Don’t address them directly. That’s unsafe for you. Don’t try to change them. That won’t work. They’re not going t listen to you let alone the reason that you have.

      Ideally the best way to communicate with meatheads is to come to their level, talk as rough as they are and tell them that they’re acting appropriately. But this is out of your control and that’s not your nature, so there’s no reason to just try to try that approach.

      I always say things like “What’s up with your rude a*s behavior, bro? Don’t push past me. Don’t take my sh*t. What’s wrong with you? You wouldn’t do this kind of stuff to Carl, knock it off and leave me alone.” When they try to boss you around just say “I wasn’t aware you’re the boss…I’ll listen to you when I’m told that I’m supposed to listen to you.”

      Yes, this is antagonizing and that’s usually fine in this kind of situation. Since they are getting away with the same patterns, it’s about pushing back and not letting them intimidate you since that’s EXACTLY what they’re doing. In the end it’s the company who needs to protect you or you can just sue them then buy the company with the settlement money and fire these jackholes.

      1. LQ*

        Yeah, this is what I’ve done successfully. Up your vulgarity and basically take up the space as much as possible. This can be especially effective if you don’t really care about these folks anyway. It sucks and it can really be a drain. But at some point it has usually settled down for me.

        The other thing is f-em. Show up, helmets on, ear protection on, grab a torch and start welding specialty spouts. Stop only when someone comes to ask you to switch. Don’t engage any more than possible. I’d run this solution past Mike first if you really think he’s reasonable. “Hey, no one seems to know what to do on Thursdays. My plan is going to be get in, start making specialty spouts, and once they sort out the rest and let me know if they need something else I’ll switch.”

    2. Morning reader*

      Wow, this is a tough one. Short term, I like the idea of speaking to Mike to tell him what’s going on. Clearly this group cannot work well in the absence of an immediate supervisor. Medium term, call in sick on Thursdays. Long term, find another job, maybe somewhere with more women. There should be many opportunities for good welders.

      1. Antisocial Butterfly*

        Thanks! Short-term and long-term that’s what I’m probably going to do. I probably won’t be able to find another job right away though and they’re all probably about as bad. There are almost no women in welding, statistically bout 4-5%. Less female representation than in STEM, the military, or Congress. I think I’ve seen like two.

    3. valentine*

      Is long-term therapy a possibility? Are you sure you need therapy and not something else to change how you communicate? I don’t see any such issues in what you’ve written here.

      You’ve taken this job to avoid communicating and these guys are harassing you around communication. It’s not sustainable and, with no one to hold them accountable (shielding you isn’t the way to go; Mike (who’s not much help) or whoever could die and they can never put a woman in that role because they so value keeping these disgusting men), you’re at their mercy and that’s sure to take a massive toll on you. Even your self-isolation would probably have a negative effect. The shunning on top of it and keeping you off-balance is insurmountable. There’s got to be a job you can do with people who will communicate properly with you.

    4. M*

      Given Mike seems like a functional human being, let him know what’s going on, and suggest that if Joe remains incapable of collaboratively dividing up work on Thursdays, that you – given you have seniority – be formally put in charge of doing so.

      This is obviously a badly forked-up situation, but in this case, there’s at least a relatively clear solution to the immediate problem: you have seniority, your boss is sane, Joe is being an idiot, and there’s a fairly uncomplicated ultimatum Mike can issue to Joe. If the people who need to give you information each Thursday can’t put on their big boy pants for long enough to tell you what they need from you that day, then they won’t get their spouts on Thursdays. (Obviously, document very clearly what spouts they request each Thursday, and show them the order sheet, because these kind of morons will go out of their way to give you inaccurate information and then blame you for it.)

      Longer term, The Man, Becky Lynch’s advice is excellent.

  227. Anon Uni Employee*

    Our university had its centennial last year, and there’s a huge push for everyone to have the official t-shirt. And now there’s a 2nd t-shirt. My department had an event a couple of years ago and we all got t-shirts. I went to a semi-work-related event – yup, t-shirt.

    My mom was a hoarder, and I fight the tendency in myself. The last thing I need are a bunch of t-shirts! So I just say “no” to shirts, but now there are events where you’re expected to wear your official shirt, and they’ll give you one if you don’t have one. Now it’s beyond fighting the family hoarding bug. It seems a bit creepy. I want to say, “No thanks. I’ll wait until you start handing out brown shirts and take one of those.”

    /rant

    1. Kathenus*

      I have a gazillion t-shirts myself, so get it at least a little bit. I have one work one that I’m expected to wear at some functions as well, and I keep it in a drawer at work so I have it if needed but it’s kind of out of sight out of mind otherwise. Maybe every time they give you a new one, donate/recycle/reuse the old one so there’s only ever one to keep at a time?

      1. valentine*

        Throw them right out. See if you can get this changed to a logo pin or sticker. Or hats, if those are more comfortable for you. But throw them right out at the end of the day.

    2. Catsaber*

      I’d keep the ones you like best to wear, and then use the rest as dish towels/car rags/etc. Cut them up into squares. They are super handy for around the house and you can toss them when they get too gross.

    3. Dr. Anonymous*

      Keep them in a small box in your office. When the box is full, throw out the oldest one.

    4. Zephy*

      When I left OldJob, I had, no lie, probably about 10 event shirts accumulated in just shy of 4 years working there. I took about half of them and made them into a small rug, because they were all shades of blue. I could have added the other shirts, but they were different colors and it wouldn’t have looked as nice.

      1. Cut or tear the shirts into strips 1-2″ wide. I cut off the sleeves of each tee, cut down the seam on one side, then just cut straight across.
      2. Stretch the strips so they curl up on themselves, that’ll be easier to braid and give you a more cushiony rug.
      3. Braid all the strips into one looooong braid. When you run out of strip to braid, tie on another one. Keep going until you run out of strips. I think I had a total of about 7 shirts, size men’s M and L, and I ended up with a braid about a hundred feet long.
      4. Start twisting/wrapping the braid around itself to make a flat disc. I linked each new layer to the previous one with a few stitches, basically pinning it together at intervals of about 2 inches give or take (closer together at the beginning, more widely spaced as the rug got bigger), and just looping a few stitches through around where the pins were. My hundred-foot braid yielded a small rug about 20″ wide. It lives in my kitchen and it’s quite comfy to stand on. It is, of course, unlaunderable, but I can vacuum it without issue.

  228. scorpia*

    Does anyone on this thread have experience of looking for/taking a job in a different country? How did you go about it, and how did it work out? I’m looking to up sticks and move back to the country I was living in a few years ago (still fluent in the language though), but back then I was a student, whereas now I’m a full-grown adult and thanks to Brexit, there are going to be new legal issues that there weren’t before.

    1. Anon From Here*

      A couple of years ago, I moved to Canada from the U.S. About 6 months before the move, I started actively applying for jobs. (That is, I started applying once I had a firm arrival date.) I thought I made it crystal clear in my application materials that (1) I was 100% authorized to work in Canada; (2) I had a firm arrival date and destination city; and (3) I’d be happy to interview via videoconference. But I didn’t get anywhere at all on my applications until I had an actual street address and phone number in Canada. I finally got my first interview about 4 months after we arrived.

      My line of work is professional services where my credentials in the States are not 100% accepted in Canada, so I was applying for jobs like office support and bookkeeping. I even signed up with a temp agency when I was in my destination city on a vacation there before we moved, but they never found me anything.

      Without working with a real recruiter, and without having any personal or professional network at all in my destination city, I think the deck was seriously stacked against me. Does your university have a career services office of some kind? If so, and if you have a network of old contacts you can reach out to, maybe you’ll have better luck than I did.

  229. Office Mercenary*

    I’m just venting, because I only have two weeks left at this job:

    I work in an extremely dysfunctional and toxic martial arts school. One of the other employees appears to be some variety of neurodiverse. I’m not in the business of armchair diagnosis and it’s none of my business so I don’t want to speculate beyond stating that he appears to have a condition that inhibits his social skills. Though his mannerisms are odd and sometimes off-putting, he is generally polite, friendly, reliable, and hard working. This place has a ton of really awful, complicated politics and I often worry about his ability to advocate for himself or about the possibility of him being unfairly targeted. I try to speak up on his behalf when he’s not around.

    However. I also suspect he’s lonely and wants attention, particularly from women. He interrupts my work constantly, all day long. Sometimes he tells me “good morning” for the nth time that morning. Sometimes he just stands at my desk, smiling and saying nothing. Sometimes he walks up and holds out his hand for a handshake; sometimes he walks up and asks for a hug. Sometimes he calls my name and when I look up, he says, “oh, it’s nothing. I’m just saying your name.” Sometimes he giggles to himself and watches for my reaction. If I don’t react he’ll walk up and say directly to me, “oh, I’m just laughing for no reason.” He interrupts me to ask if I like a particular food. He interrupts me to ask where the cat is. He interrupts me to tell me where the cat is. He interrupts me to tell me the cat is pretty and ask if I think the cat is pretty too. He interrupts to ask if I think the cat likes him. He interrupts to tell stories about how the cat is actually 35 years old and was born in Korea and used to be an accountant but she retired early and they went on a date but she told him that she doesn’t feel that way about him and prefers younger guys.

    I try to answer briefly and amicably and focus on my computer screen. He’s not deterred by the lack of eye contact (perhaps he has trouble reading body language) so he keeps talking and asking for a response until I tell him I need to focus on my work. He usually apologizes and walks away, but comes back later to tell me that the cat told him to leave her alone because she’s busy. He only behaves like this around women and it might be his attempt to flirt, or maybe he just finds talking to women less intimidating than talking to men. He tried to ask me out a few times and I changed the topic each time.

    Most of the time his non sequiturs are harmless, if annoying and distracting, but this week his behavior is especially irksome. However, this week he mentioned that he’s angry because a woman with whom he went on a date blocked his phone number, and he feels anger instead of sadness because he’s a man. He asked if a man has ever blocked my number and various other questions about dating. I told him no, I don’t date men. Then he had a bunch of questions about why I date women, and I really don’t want to discuss all that at work, and especially not with him.

    Since then, I’ve noticed his stories about the cat have taken a bit of a sexist turn, like calling her bougie and saying she thinks she’s better than him, or saying that she’s a diva because she’s a woman. He also has a long standing habit of walking up to me and telling me that self defense is important, and then telling me about various times he’s been attacked violently. The combination of constant if innocent interruptions and the more weighty topics has me tense whenever he’s around. I’m already under a lot of stress and I don’t have the time or energy to explain work appropriate social interactions to him.

    One student, a friend of mine, avoided him because being around him triggers her ptsd. One day he followed her to the elevator outside our studio and asked her, “why don’t you like me? Why aren’t you nice to me? Everyone else is nice to me.” She said he was really angry and she panicked. She tearfully apologized and said she didn’t mean to hurt his feelings. He accepted her apology, hugged her, and went back inside. After a few incidents like that, she declined to renew her membership.

    He really hasn’t done anything wrong but it’s off-putting. I think he has the best of intentions but he can’t pick up on subtle messages and we’re not communicating directly enough with him. The school’s management doesn’t spend enough time around him to take issue with his behavior, and have dismissed my friend’s reaction as resulting from her unrelated post traumatic stress. This is the least of my problems in this place and I only have two more weeks until I go back to being a student, not a staff member. I don’t want the responsibility of having a difficult conversation with him. But I just can’t handle another question about whether the cat is attractive.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I’m sorry you have to put with that. I’m frankly a little weirded out by the bits about the cat and him following the one member. It’s… harassing.
      I’m sympathetic to the fact he may have a social disorder, but this behavior is still unacceptable.

      1. valentine*

        He really hasn’t done anything wrong
        Everything he does is wrong. It’s harassment and torture. You have the patience of Job. Doesn’t mean you should tolerate it, and I hope there’s someone you can report him to, especially about the unwanted hugs and the poor student who fled.

    2. misspiggy*

      All I can say is I’m glad you’re leaving, because the school’s management is not handling this properly.

      1. Shiny Swampert*

        +1, although I suspect the belief is because it’s easier than being as freaked out as would be reasonable about all this.

  230. Washed Out Data Analyst*

    Received another job rejection. They went with someone more experienced, so not much I could have done about it.

    Poll: How many interviews did you all have to do before finally getting a job offer? Because in the past year, I’ve done FIVE! 4 final stage and one first stage interviews. One of them I decided not to take after the 2nd interview, but the most recent job I really wanted. I don’t even know if there are anymore suitable jobs left! (Unfortunately, moving is not an option.)

    1. Betty Wight*

      Before my first “real” job I lost count of how many applications I sent and interviews I went on. A lot of the interviews led to nothing, and even more ghosted me before I could interview in person. My last round of interviews was up to 5 before a job offer which I accepted. Currently, one application was sent into the void (no one called me back), and the other led to a phone interview. I was scheduled for round two of a phone interview where no one called me at the appointed time. So, it’s a bit of a crap shoot! My field of expertise is so narrow I don’t have a lot of options out there, so I also feel like all the good jobs are drying up. Good luck!

    2. NoLongerYoung*

      In my second year of my $top ten MBA, I had over 72 on campus interviews. Two flights to third round. but wound up being one of only 2 graduating unemployed. Took a temp job. It took me almost a year to finally land a job, and that wasn’t through the school, but a wonderful former co-worker. And then I was underemployed, making about half of my peers. But at least I had benefits and a permanent position.

      It was disheartening. I had to persevere. I am very happy now, but I think I’d go to a less expensive school if I had it to do over again. The interviewing would have still been awful (I was both depressed and not “of their tribe” – I didn’t fit the model), but at least the loan pressure would have been less.

    3. MissDisplaced*

      Oh, I don’t think 5 is abnormally high in a year. If you’re getting through to the final stage it’s actually a really GOOD thing because it means you’re a strong candidate and they’re calling you back!

      When I was last searching 3 years ago, I think I had something like 6 interviews, 3 second rounders and lots of phone calls over about a 7 month period where I was very active.

      But, yeah, it’s still competitive. My guess here is either you’re strong but not THE strongest candidate, money-mismatch, or experience?
      I know it can suck and make you down sometimes, but keep at it. It sounds like you’re getting close.

  231. Little Beans*

    I know I’m so late but I really need help with this! I’m running a search committee to hire within my own department, and I was also asked to join a search committee for a position in another department in my organization, as they always like to have at least one “outside perspective”. The positions are similar, so I let them know about my search in case it was a conflict of interest, but they said it was fine. The roles are different levels and the timing won’t overlap (my search is wrapping up next week while theirs hasn’t started review yet). However, I just found out that one person did apply to both! Even though they are different levels, he’s feasibly a candidate for both – we already invited him to interview for our position, which would be a lateral move, and it would be a step up to get the other position. Do I withdraw from the other search committee? Will it be so awkward for this person to potentially be interviewed by me twice, for different roles? Presumably the only way he would be interviewing for the second role would be if we don’t hire him for ours, or if we offer and he declines it.

    1. Kathleen_A*

      I don’t get any awkwardness, to be honest. I mean, if he applied to a position now and didn’t get it, but then applied again in six months, he might be interviewed by you twice, and that sounds perfectly fine to me. The only reason to withdraw that I can think of is if you feel you’ve become biased in some way.

      I guess if it bothers you, you could mention it to the person who’s leading up the second search. But there’s nothing wrong with applying for two jobs, assuming one is qualified for both, and there’s nothing wrong with interviewing for both, and there’s nothing wrong with being involved with interviews for both, at least not that I can see.

      1. Little Beans*

        I hope I wouldn’t be biased, but I guess I might be worried he’d think I was. Like if he doesn’t do well in the first interview (or even if he does well but just doesn’t get the job and then assumes he didn’t do well), will he think I carried that negative impression into the other interview process? I would probably be much less vocal in general for the second process, since I’m just helping out, I don’t actually have to work with the person they hire. I’m leaning toward at least disclosing to the search chair and then letting her decide…

    2. Overeducated*

      Can you recuse yourself from consideration of just that candidate for the second search committee? It seems like a little bit of a conflict of interest given that you may want him for your own department, but I don’t see why you’d have to remove yourself from the entire search unless there is some kind of required numerical quorum for every candidate.

      1. Little Beans*

        Well, we would have already decided whether or not we want him for our department before applicants are selected for the other position. And that would be true whether or not I were on their search committee, so it wouldn’t be like I was stealing their candidate or anything. Maybe this isn’t that big a deal and I’ve just been overthinking it!

        1. On Hold*

          You’re overthinking it. If it really worries you, let the other committee organizer know and give them the option to take you off. But honestly, given the timelines, it’s not a thing.

          Sometimes multiple jobs open up in the same organization and it makes sense to go for all of them. You’re probably going to do the phone screen with the same HR person, too. No big deal.

    3. Kathenus*

      I think you should just make sure whoever is heading the second search committee knows the situation and let them decide if they are OK with you being involved (or not) if that person is being interviewed by their group.

    4. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Are the positions similar enough that they are essentially the same position? Don’t count on your hire being dedicated to your department as they may be seeking to cut costs or similar by having someone do “double duty”!

      1. LQ*

        That’s odd. There are a lot of times there are the same jobs in different departments that are very reasonably in different departments. (Think you may need a receptionist for each building, they would be essentially the same position, but not “double duty.”)

  232. On Hold*

    This is late and probably won’t get much notice, but I’m happy so I’ll share. At oldJob, I was one of three very effective people team of four supervisors in the main sales/customer service side of the business. I gave notice and left just over a month ago, and I’ve been quite happy in newJob for 3 weeks. As of this writing, my two functional colleagues have also given notice (one for a new job, one for school), leaving them with Least Effective Sup + a bunch of rank newbies. I know management won’t make changes, but it’s satisfying to see their business practices come bite them in the ass. And I’m happy that the people I like have gotten out.

  233. vanillacookies*

    A friend of mine has been working at his first job out of college, for about a year now. From the sound of it, management is terrible from top to bottom and the coworkers are no piece of cake either, but he’s strongly opposed to looking for a new job. He’s an adult and can make his own career decisions, but I worry a lot about him getting laid off, or fired for something out of his control.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      Sometimes this happens no matter what you do. However, as it’s his first job it does pay to just, you know, keep his head down and working and trying to learn as much as he can there. He’ll be much better positioned if he can hang 2 years. It’s not mandatory if things are abusive of course, but if it’s just normal-bad he should stick with it.

  234. Snitch*

    SNITCHES REALLY DO GET STITCHES! My boss is horrible. The HR team is investigating him and I was recently asked by HR to discuss all of his wrongdoings. HR told me that there would be no retaliation for talking to them so I did. They also told me that he was being given a review that they wanted me to participate in it. They assured me it was anonymous so I did. The head of the dept. has always been very friendly to me but I’ve heard that he and my boss are friends. I saw the head of the dept. recently and he was very cold to me and snubbed me (this is after I snitched). A friend of mine told me that it was prob. b/c I snitched but my friend said it’s good I was honest. Word on the street is no matter what HR does, my boss will never be fired. Worth it to snitch or not? Sincerely – Pissed and looking for a new job.

    1. Clementine*

      I’m sorry that happened. Yes, I totally don’t believe those confidentiality promises either. I hope you can soon be free of this boss and at a better job.

    2. LQ*

      HRs duty is to the company first and foremost. Not to you, not to employees. They should never tell you something will be confidential, and if they do you should not believe them. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t raise issues up, but you should look around and know if it is something the company will take seriously.
      Sometimes it is absolutely worth it and you should definately speak up.
      Sometimes, unfortunately they just don’t care as much. (I find this is true of generalized “harassment” like stuff. If it’s not specifically an attack on a protected class with protected class language a lot of times they just don’t care.)

      That said the head of the dept could just have been having a bad day, one bit of coldness can be just a bad day, so I’d try to do what you can to keep that relationship if possible.

      Good luck finding something new. This sucks.

      1. Snitch*

        Thanks LQ, really appreciate your post. That’s a good point that he could have been having a bad day. I probably should have mentioned that the snub came in the form of being stared down while he was 2 feet in front of me, giving a friend of his a sideways hug. I said hi and he continued to stare me down, saying nothing back to me but acknowledging his friend and then walking away. I felt like a total turd sandwich and am still replaying it in my mind. So sucky…

  235. workerbee*

    “Detail oriented” shows up on a lot of job postings—so how do you show a potential employer (in your resume or during an interview) that you’ve got this attention to detail? What should you not do?

    1. NicoleK*

      To show an interviewer that you are detail oriented, talk about a detailed process or task that you’ve done. You want to provide enough details to paint a picture for the interview.

    2. CM*

      I have a related question — what are the other orientations?

      I’m not being sarcastic. I honestly feel confused when people talk about being detail-oriented or customer service-oriented or anything else-oriented because I’m like, “As opposed to what? What are the other choices?” and I honestly don’t know if I am those things or not.

      1. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

        In general the opposite of “detail” orientated is “big picture”… and the ‘holy grail’ is to be able to switch between them or be using either or both at any one time.

      2. Alianora*

        Broadly, when people use terms like detail-oriented and customer service-oriented, it’s a polite way of saying that you need to have this specific soft skill. IMO customer service-oriented means putting yourself in the customer’s shoes as well as being unflinchingly professional/polite in the face of stress or angry customers.

        One of my coworkers is very good at her job, but she certainly isn’t customer service-oriented. She constantly sends our internal clients abrupt messages like, “This isn’t our department’s role,” whereas others in our department would write, “Hi client, this request should actually go to X department. I’ve copied them here.”

        Her strengths aren’t in opposition to customer service, it’s just that she either lacks the skill or doesn’t make it a priority.

      3. On Hold*

        I recently came from the travel industry, creating itineraries for international travel. Some of our employees would notice minor errors in itineraries – for example, a service being booked on the wrong day, or to the wrong place. Some would catch it occasionally, but not most of the time. Some people wouldn’t catch it at all unless the customer pointed them directly at it. The first kind of people are detail oriented – they just habitually scan for details as part of the routine, and it doesn’t require any particular extra focus to do that scanning.

        I think it can be learned/practiced, to a degree, but some people really do have to put thought, energy, and focus into Looking At The Small Things and it costs them, every time.

        Whereas, some of the details-people have trouble expanding the view to the big picture. Oh, you want your vacation to go Venice to Naples to Milan to Sorrento to Rome to Sicily? Sure, let me get that booked for you (nb: north, south, north, south, middle, waaaay south). Whereas a big-picture person would hear that and start asking questions/making recommendations to adjust and cut out travel time. Again, with practice, some people who don’t do this instinctively are going to be able to add Take A Step Back into their process.

        In one of Allison’s posts about resume writing, she says something like “you can imagine someone doing your job badly, right? What are you doing that’s different from that?” as a way to prompt you into articulating how you succeed on your resume. But basically, for X-oriented – think about how someone could do it badly, and know that that person exists and probably should not be in a job where X-orientation is a priority.

  236. Tartini’s Thrilling Trills*

    I have a lot of anxiety towards working due to past trauma. I think I’ll be okay; it’s just… I feel like things are much more complicated now.

    I just want to calm down. It’s hard.

  237. Nony Mouse*

    I am a relatively new manager in a small company and need to fire an employee soon. While firing someone is never fun, this is at least a pretty clear case. But I’ve never fired someone before so I’m nervous about the actual event.

    I’ve read up on how to fire an employee and have reached out to a couple peers for advice. Oddly enough, though, I’m clashing with my company’s lone HR person about this – not about the decision but about how to do it.

    I was planning to start the meeting by telling the employee that her employment was being terminated, so she’s not sitting in there wondering what’s going on, thinking she has to defend herself, or that she’s getting put on a PIP or something. HR Person says no, that I should go through all the things she’s done wrong, all the warnings she’s received, build up a case bit by bit, and then at the very end of the conversation hand her a termination letter. Or, I planned to have a box available and offer the employee 10-15 minutes to clear out her personal items from her cube. I would also say that if she preferred I could box up her personal items and she could make arrangements to pick them up at the reception desk at a later date. HR Person says no – I should box up all her stuff ahead of time and just give her the box and tell her to look through it and tell me if anything’s missing.

    I feel like HR Person is making this way more antagonistic than it needs to be. This is a professional office environment and there’s nothing to indicate that this employee is unstable or anything. But HR Person has done this before and I haven’t. But also HR Person is also new to the company and came from a very different industry. There are no official policies or procedures about how terminations are handled at this company.

    Am I way off base here? Who should get to decide these things? Since I’ve never fired anyone before I want to be able to lean on HR for advice, but HR Person is telling me to act in a way that’s not consistent with how I want to manage.

    1. London Calling*

      Not an HR person but if I were being canned I’d feel bad enough without a pile-on. Does this person know why you are terminating her?

      1. Nony Mouse*

        The person being fired? I don’t see how she couldn’t. We’ve had several very frank discussions about a variety of performance issues. The most recent one and the straw that broke the camel’s back was something like “It looks like you’re doing . If you do this again, you will be fired.” And then she did it again.

    2. Timber*

      I just went through this for the first time as well, in a similar environment, and had all the same angst in trying to handle it as respectfully and compassionately as possible.

      I definitely agree to starting the convo by letting her know she’s been terminated, for exactly the reasons that you listed. You also don’t want it to sound like there is anything left to discuss or any points to argue. Let her know her last day of employment is that day (while handing her the letter), the reasons why (and at this point you should be able to keep it succinct, because again, nothing to discuss), and next steps (any severance or benefits, what needs to be signed by when, what the company will tell reference checks, etc).

      As far as belongings, based on experience I wouldn’t have the employee collect her items right then. At best it’s awkward and embarassing for her, and uncomfortable and disruptive to the rest of staff, and at worst…it can get more awkward. I would just suggest the option to collect the items from reception at a later date. HR’s suggestion to prepack her things ahead of time may be okay as well, though it may require more careful timing so that it doesn’t look suspicious before your meeting. If you go this route, I wouldn’t expect her to be in a position to tell you accurately whether anything was missing; she’ll likely be too flustered. And it may be helpful to have another person present when you pack, ideally HR, to ensure oversight in case the employee makes any claims afterward. And if this option feels antagonistic, just let her know you were trying to minimize the awkwardness for her.

      To your question of who should get to decide all of this – unless HR is stating you must follow their direction on the order of the meeting, and as long as you’re covering the actual content that needs to be shared, I would consider it a suggestion and trust your instincts. Ideally it’s a 5-minute conversation, so the order of things shouldn’t make an impact from an HR perspective, it just allows you to avoid that unnecessary but likely inital confusion. I would, however, probably let HR make the call on how the belongings are handled, since it can affect other staff on the floor, and just focus on following through on that option with your employee’s comfort in mind.

      Sending you lots of positive thoughts!

    3. CM*

      I would go berserk if someone touched my stuff without my permission, and especially if they chucked it all in a box and handed it to me at the end of a surprise termination meeting.

      I think your instincts on this are right. If the decision has already been made, and you’re letting her know, it’s kind to be clear about that from the beginning. I might softly lead into it by saying some things that indicate where this is going like, “It’s been clear for a while now that things aren’t working out the way we hoped” or “We’ve had a few discussions now about X,” but I wouldn’t exhaustively rehash every piece of evidence you have to support your decision.

      For the possessions, I think it’s okay to just ask her what she wants to do and give some options (and one of the options can be that you’ll pack it up for her and either courier it to her or let her pick it up; another option could be coming back to collect it later; and, depending on the situation, another option could be for her to pack it up right then — it depends on how things are going). But I would not ever chuck her stuff in a box while she’s in the meeting and hand it to her at the end. That’s a psychopath move.

      1. Joss*

        I’ve had to go through this a few times. I would follow HRs direction only bc if that person sues the company (it sounds crazy but it does happen), you can say that you discussed with HR and followed their advice/direction. I’m sorry you’re going thru this and I wish you closure soon.

        1. Nony Mouse*

          See, I’m concerned that doing it HR Person’s way is going to make it MORE likely that the fired employee will sue, pursue unemployment, etc. I know that if I felt like the company that was letting me go was being a jerk about it, I’d be more likely to try to get whatever I could out of them. I’d be thinking: You want to act like we’re enemies? Ok, now we’re enemies.

          1. Joss*

            I would have a second person in the room with you for sure, whether it’s HR or a peer manager. This is a tough decision but I’m sure you’ll make the right one.

    4. Rick Tq*

      One process note, have your IT people on standby so they can disable the person’s computer/email account at the beginning of the meeting, and have a list of all the company equipment (laptop, phone, pager, etc.) that needs to be collected immediately. It sounds harsh but you don’t know for sure how they will handle being fired.

  238. KaladinSB*

    Somewhat new here, so not entirely sure if this belongs in the work thread or the weekend thread, but it’s work-based, so here we are.

    This entire website, while a true delight to read and savor, makes me so ecstatically pleased that I don’t work in an office environment. So many problems come up that I feel would be best suited by telling youd coworkers to go fornicate themselves with a rusty chainsaw, which is definitely something that’s been said at my job, yet wouldn’t fly in any sort of civilized workplace.

    I freely admit, I’m not in any sort of supervisory role, so I don’t necessarily see all big problems that crop up, but it’s rare to have anyone suddenly fired or punished for harassment or causing a hostile work environment. It does happen, though, and I know they do take actual complaints seriously (having been called as a witness to a couple things.) I dunno, I just get the feeling that so many things could be dealt with an appropriate amount of self-confidence (I would make a terrible therapist, I know. Like the old Geico commercial where R Lee Ermey plays a drill sergeant moonlighting as a therapist.)

    Offices are just too civilized, I guess my complaint is.

    “Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.” – Robert E. Howard

    1. Zombie Unicorn*

      So people say awful things to each other and you’ve had to be a witness multiple times but you think that’s the way to go?

  239. JK*

    How much notice needs to be given when for informing your boss you have a doctor’s appointment? I told my boss at 8 this morning I have an appointment on Tuesday afternoon and she said next time I need to give her 2 weeks notice as that’s what policy says. The last appointment I had was over a year ago, so it’s not like I’m always absent or at the doctor. I thought most people only give their boss a few days notice? What am I going to do when I have to interview for jobs? They are not going to want to wait 2 weeks to bring me in to talk to me.

    1. Wishing You Well*

      What IS your company’s policy on medical appointments? Ask HR, if you have one. 2 weeks is for quitting, not appointments. Your boss sounds ridiculous. I’d check with someone else to verify.
      Good luck.

    2. Clementine*

      Maybe that is what the policy is, but it’s still ridiculous. I have had interviews postponed for two weeks due to schedules. So it’s not inconceivable to do that, but it does worsen your chances, of course. I have other silly workarounds to suggest, but the fact is that this policy is not reasonable.

    3. Zombie Unicorn*

      That’s absurd – you might need an appointment quickly due to a pressing medical issue!

      I can tell my employer on the same day if needed.

    4. MissDisplaced*

      This sounds ridiculous. Sure, there are some regular medical appointments where you schedule far in advance. But a lot of times you need to go ASAP and you can’t possibly give 2 weeks notice of them.

  240. Seriously Anxious*

    Longtime lurker, first time poster and seriously late to the game today, so while the chances for responses are slim, I need advice.

    I work in accounting, but don’t have an accounting degree. Last year, I made a series of big mistakes on an account for one of our biggest clients. Big as in this account had a rate change but they continued to pay the old rates resulting in underpayments on fees to the client for 12 months of the contract. Normally this is something I would have emailed the account about at the beginning of the contract and had them correct… for some unknown reason I didn’t do this at all throughout the 12 months. This was brought to my attention by the account who had requested reports and discovered the discrepancies. I need to discuss with my manager, but she was out today and our department head is on emergency leave for a family emergency so I couldn’t go to him. I feel like this needs to be done in person, but I’m working from home Monday and Tuesday (worst time for my car to be out of commission) and on vacation the rest of the week.

    I’m seriously ready to just resign. I’ve been disillusioned with this job, company, and line of work for a few years now which I’m sure played a part in me not doing my job (not an excuse, just an acknowledgment that I let it get this way). I let myself get stuck in job I don’t want anymore because the PTO is amazing and I love my manager, but in doing so I’ve become someone who makes serious mistakes and doesn’t even recognize them at the time. I can’t help too but feel angry at my company (just as much as I’m angry at myself) for having me be the sole person working on this client (and others) with no real oversight of my work.

    What also doesn’t help is I had a mild panic attack at one point today because of all of this and have been a sobbing mess ever since. I just know that’s going to happen again when I do get to talk to my manager.

    I don’t even know what to do now or where to go from here.

    1. KaladinSB*

      I don’t know that you necessarily need to resign, but if you decide that’s the right thing for you, you need to do it in person, and after taking responsibility for the mistake. Otherwise you just look like you’re attempting to either run away from the problem without trying to solve it, or did it on purpose out of spite for a company you no longer like.

      Either way, take full responsibility for your actions and offer any help you can provide to sort out the problem. It’s never fun to do, but it’s always way better than letting the boss find out the hard way and come storming out to look for you.

      Good luck.

      1. valentine*

        Call your manager Monday, own up, and tell her your plan to put things right. You could (offer to) take a cab in, unless you can, from home, communicate with her and the client as well as you need to. If you wait and she’s the one to say you do need to go in, I think the dread (that she might want to fire you, when she just wants to see body language that you appreciate how serious the sitch is) might cause another panic attack. It might look good if you are on-site handling it.

        If you’re staying for the benefits/manager, if would make sense to still do as good a job as you can. Are you simultaneously checked out but feeling guilty for staying and therefore subconsciously self-sabotaging? When the storm eases, take a good hard look at how you’ve been behaving and why.

        1. Seriously Anxious*

          I will talk to her on Monday and see how we can move forward from there. Thank you!

      2. Seriously Anxious*

        Thank you. My resignation would definitely come after fixing the mistake; I would never leave before then.

    2. CM*

      I would either call or send an email first thing Monday and acknowledge that that’s an awkward way to do it, but that you can’t wait. Sometimes it’s less awkward if you send an email kind of notifying your manager of the topic of the conversation and asking to set up a call to discuss it — then they’re not blindsided in the conversation. So, like, “I made a mistake with the X account, and I need to talk to you about it. When’s a good time to call?”

      As far as whether you should quit, I can’t tell you that. But I do agree that, if you find that you’re too angry/resentful/bored/unhappy to do the job and it’s creating problems for someone else, it might be better to leave when you can.

      1. Seriously Anxious*

        Thank you! I do think it’s time for me to start looking elsewhere for a job, but won’t make a move until I can fix my mistakes.

    3. Joss*

      Hang in there! As they say, this too shall pass. Everyone makes a few major mistakes in their career, I know I have. I agree with the other posters that you should go in on Monday and discuss with your boss. You don’t want to wait on something like that. I would write out what you want to say and bring it with you. Jobs are hard, work is difficult and sometimes resigning / finding another job isn’t the answer. I’m sorry you’re going thru this and hope things get better soon.

    4. big X*

      >I can’t help too but feel angry at my company (just as much as I’m angry at myself) for having me be the sole person working on this client (and others) with no real oversight of my work.

      Why are you upset with the company? If you didn’t speak up and say, “Hey, this is a ton of work and I think it would benefit me and the account to have someone else on it with me to handle XYZ” then this is all on you. Most jobs require you to be able to work independently with little supervision – everyone has their own work, they can’t hover over you. If you need that, ask your manager if you can set up weekly check-in meetings with them. I don’t want to sound harsh but this is just a reminder because it doesn’t sound like your manager or the company are trying to set you up for failure. They gave you this job because they thought you could do it – and honestly, mistakes happen. It’s been caught and now you need to show how you handle mistakes and clean up messes, which is just as important as doing your routine job.

      First off, you need to do is inform your manager. Send an email and set up a time to call as well – even better, if you can make it into the office on Monday (via bus, friend, taxi or ride-share), do that and hash it out in person. Your anxiety is getting the best of you – I’ve been there before and I wish I had a magic solution to not crying in front of your boss (been there as well…) Do you know how to fix the problem or any ideas? Go into your meeting with a game plan and that will help keep your mind focused or at least give you a reference. You said you love your manager, which makes me think they aren’t a tyrant and might even be an understanding person who knows things like this happen.

      Lastly, know that EVERY problem has a solution. Best case? It’s no biggie – they just pay the difference or the company eats the difference. Lesson learned. Crisis averted. Worst case? You lose a job that you are telling us you already want to leave. So even in the worst case, things will be fine. Life truly does go on – it’s a simple adage that’s hard for anxious minds to accept when every mistake is the end of the world.

      1. Seriously Anxious*

        I do take full responsibility for what happened because it is ultimately my fault no matter what, but I have asked for help before. Every time I asked I was brushed off or given “solutions” that worked for a few weeks and then were no longer an option; my manager tried her best, but some of my coworker’s were in worse shape so she had to help them more. I was managing my work fine most of the time so I understand why I wasn’t a priority, it’s just frustrating when you do ask for help and don’t get it only for something like this to happen.

        Thank you for the advice! I will do my best.

        1. big X*

          This reminds me of all those stories where a parent will say to the “successful” child, “We paid more attention to your siblings because we never had to worry about you like we did them,” typically after the lack of attention has manifested into some sort of problem for the child.

          It sounds like you won’t be in trouble at all – you left out how competent of a worker you are and most likely your manager will know that you didn’t get the support that could have avoided this. Overall, it also sounds like this lack of support and being brushed off may be contributing to your burn-out & anxiety at this job. It’s awful to feel unsupported, esp when you see others getting that support.

  241. ExpatInTheHat*

    I survived my work’s busy season! Almost 3 weeks of 12 hour days, complete with teaching kindergarteners. (Most kids go on much-needed vacations with their families around this month where I am, which means the enrollment levels at cram schools drops for that time. So most, like ours, run longer hours and offer special classes to remaining students to make up the lost tuition).

    The teaching load was actually not horrible, it was just having to be at work for that long, with breaks that were long enough to eat, but not to really relax or switch off. Oh, and one of our coworkers got fired the day before we even started, so that was fun.

    But it is over at last, I can sleep again, and I’m hoping I will have a very nice check next pay period.

  242. Timber*

    While I know you feel overwhelmed right now, take this in two parts.

    First, focus on addressing the issue itself and actionable next steps. Let your manager know as soon as you can. If you think it would be better to do in person, take a Lyft/taxi to the office rather than delay a week — both for your own sanity/stress and also, since the client already reported it, you want to be seen as taking immediate action on this and not trying to hide anything. If your manager and the department head are out again next week, you may also want to send an email to let them know you’d like to discuss a situation with Client when they are back, just for a paper trail to show you’re being proactive.

    Then, 1) tell your boss what happened, 2) what steps are being put in place, or what help you need, in order to remedy/mitigate this for the client, and 3) acknowledge that you made a mistake and highlight the steps you are putting in place to ensure this doesn’t happen again (or additional assistance you may need if it’s a case of overburdened resource, etc)

    Second, if you’re truly ready to resign, don’t act on it yet but let that knowledge help you to feel more confident when having that initial conversation. You mentioned that you love your boss, so hopefully you can get a clear and honest sense from her of the seriousness of the situation, possible resolutions, and how it affects your future there. Though as you also mention you’ve become disillusioned with the job, it makes sense to start looking around at other opportunities, take this situation as a possible catalyst for change, and then see how the next few weeks play out to determine your next steps. Maybe you end up getting more support and the job becomes more manageable; maybe the company decides that it’s no longer the right fit; maybe this helps spur you on finally seek that next adventure.

    I don’t understand the severity of the issue or how your company/management treats situations like this. But I will say that mistakes happen, and sometimes big mistakes happen. For everyone. Owning the mistake and facing it head on is an empowering thing, a testament to your professionalism, and a lesson learned in your journey.

    And last thing I’ll throw out there as you weigh your next moves, I’ve been thinking about the 10/10/10 rule a lot lately for hard decisions — if you make a certain decision, how will you feel about it 10 minutes from now? 10 months? 10 years?

    Please don’t beat yourself up, and think about what you would tell someone else if this happened to them and the grace you’d show them. Give yourself that same grace, focus on next steps, and I wish you all the best.

      1. Seriously Anxious*

        Thank you for the advice! I definitely plan on having a talk with my manager as soon as possible and explain everything. I know this needs to be a done a certain way and I won’t shirk my responsibilities to both fix this and make sure it doesn’t happen again.

  243. Miss Pantalones en Fuego*

    I have been trying to get myself to write a cover letter/statement for a job I’m very, very interested in for about three weeks. The deadline is next Friday. I have written pages and pages of stream-of-consciousness babble about the job, why I want it, and all the bad feelings I have about my career and job history so far that have convinced me that there’s no way I can even do the job let alone get an interview. I’ve also gone through some other professional criteria and written at length about how well I meet them. But none of this has even resulted in a rough draft of a letter. Why does it always take me so long to write job application materials?

    Gaah.

    On the plus side I have revised and revamped and tweaked my CV a million times so hopefully that is OK. Of course getting feedback on my CV from someone who actually hires people in my field is always difficult. My friends look at it and say “that looks fine” and don’t really have any constructive criticism.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I believe you’re really over thinking this. Just apply!
      1. Why you’re interested in the company or role? (I pick 2 things)
      2. What related skills and/or background qualify you for the role (what you can bring).

      I’m not saying you just wing it, but once you have your basic resume/cover letter it shouldn’t take you hours to apply for a single job. You just tailor them slightly.

  244. Wilhelmina Constance*

    I’ve checked the archives for questions similar to this, and although I found one (from 2011), I’ve got a couple of variations that I need clarification on.

    I’m now desperate to leave my current team and progress in my career. There’s an internal job posting that went up yesterday (although I knew about it last week because the hiring manager is actively courting me for the role). My otherwise good company has a *stupid* rule that internal applicants must have their existing managers approval prior to applying, and I’ve been through this before with my current manager who kiboshed both my previous attempts to move on, citing my irreplaceable importance within her team (this is a very common refrain; even my coworkers have started repeating it).

    The variation this time is that it’s a move within the same department; I’ve mentioned wanting to move into this area as part of previous appraisal meetings, so this shouldn’t be a surprise to my manager. And the layout of the department means the movement between teams would move me to… the other side of the desk (open plan, desks are three abreast and face to face with partial dividers – additional desk moves are not an option).

    So, I guess I have two questions: how do I get my manager to release me to even apply after two previous failures, and (assuming I’m successful) how do I get her to accept the boundaries of my new role and not extend my transition period indefinitely, given I’ll still be on her proximity radar?

    I feel like I’ve hit a mental dead end, if not a career one. I don’t want to leave the company entirely if it can be avoided. The employment opportunities in my area are limited, and relocating isn’t an option (if it has any bearing, I’m also in the UK).

      1. cmcinnyc*

        Ditto this, and maybe even a discussion with HR. They’re going to lose you entirely if this manager is allowed to repeatedly thwart you.

    2. Captain dddd-cccc-ddWdd*

      Speak to whoever is the “mutual” boss of both those positions – bypassing your immediate manager. S/he will be aware of the open vacancy and (in my experience) the previous “too important to promote” discussion. If possible, speak to them with a transition/succession plan already in hand as to how you can hand over things that are currently “critical” with you.

  245. Pennalynn Lott*

    We hired a new schedular in April. She has worked out great, even coming up with some of her own ideas on how to promote the business (most have worked out, some have not). She asked for a raise this past week. She sent an email to my business partner, whom she interacts with the most, that was titled, “Justifications for My Raise.”

    Y’all, the email was a list of her monthly household expenses, highlighting a new one (“Childcare at Expensive Private Daycare/School”), and pointing out that now that her sister has taken a job, Sister can no longer watch Scheduler’s children in the afternoons and evenings when Scheduler is making calls for our company. So, “…in order to keep doing the great job I’ve been doing for you, I’m going to need $1000 more per month, after tax.”

    This is a part-time job, with her hours never going above 25/week. We pay well for the nature of the work (hourly plus a generous bonus for every client she schedules), but she’s asking for more than a 50% increase. She has *not* brought us a 50% increase in business.

    I am flummoxed. I don’t want to lose her but — wowsers — the ask is too big and the reasoning definitely falls flat. (“OK, Scheduler, I’ll pay you twice what this other person is making simply because you have higher expenses. Other Person, that’s OK with you, right?”) I mean, I just can’t imagine being, say, a courier and telling your boss that they need to double your pay because you bought an expensive new car to deliver the packages in.

    My plan is to tell her that she needs to go back to the drawing board and think about her job and what she brings to the table, look at how many clients she has scheduled, and see if there’s been such a huge improvement over the past four months to warrant paying her more (because she’s contributing more than the original job description). I also plan on explaining that raises and promotions should never be based on an employee’s personal expenses and throw out some examples of how a system like that would go horribly wrong. I’d also like to suggest that she look into other daycare options, but I don’t want to blur business and personal lines.

    1. valentine*

      throw out some examples of how a system like that would go horribly wrong.
      I wouldn’t do this, especially if the business can afford to pay her what she wants. I realize she won’t get it, but she’s not inherently wrong to want her work to pay for her life.

      I’d also like to suggest that she look into other daycare options
      Definitely stay out of that. You don’t want her to bring up her expenses, so, don’t involve yourself in them. It’d be like the manager who offered to “find the money” for classroom supplies in the teacher’s household budget. “Here’s how you can afford the pay we want to give you,” would be a terrible thing to say.

    2. The New Wanderer*

      The job is 25 hours a week, is there any reason she can’t do the entire job during the hours when the children are in daycare?

      It’s been such a short time already, is she even due for a merit based raise? If not, I would respond with your typical timeframe for raise consideration (6 months to a year of sustained high performance or whatever makes sense) and ignore the content of her request. If she is, I would prepare a response that says “we’d like to reward your excellent performance with a raise of X” where you preemptively determine a number that makes sense and basically ignore everything else. Honestly I wouldn’t leave it up to her since she will probably just try to justify the $1000/mo with business reasons in place of daycare expenses rather than come up with a reasonable ask. If she says that’s not enough, she’s free to find a job that does offset the cost of her daycare.

      I would avoid getting into discussing how flawed her reasoning was. It’s unlikely to be well received, and if she’s generally reasonable she should get it from the direct line your response makes between merit/performance and raise consideration.

    3. IndoorCat*

      I slightly disagree with the other replies, because I do think somebody needs to give her a reality check about how raises work.

      It sounds like an email from someone who is genuinely clueless or got bad job advice (which, as we know, is abundant) rather than someone who’s full of themselves and thinks they’re above needing to earn raises. Like, I think my advice would be different if I thought she’s got an entitlement issue in general; if that’s the case, simply denying her request for a raise would be fine.

      But, with someone who just doesn’t know, I think it’s helpful to explain how raises have to be based on merit, and how much of a raise she merits given what she brings to the company. Also, explain the realities of your company’s budget, and the median pay for schedulers in the area (obviously, if you’re paying below what’s typical, that’s an issue in its own right). I doubt she’ll just quit; she might feel embarrassed in the short run to have an approach that’s so off the mark, but in the long run she’ll be better at negotiating– something that takes practice to learn how to get right.

      You don’t need to give examples of how her logic *might* go wrong in other contexts; you just need to show how it’s going wrong now. The fact that raises are based on merit (i.e. tasks done at work, business brought in, etc, not home expenses) and fall within a certain budget (i.e. “raises are typically x% a year, and no more than y% for your position) is enough of an explanation without distracting hypotheticals.

      Also, it might be worth mentioning other pathways to a bigger paycheck, if those exist. Could she train to be promoted to a different, higher paying position? Could she get full-time hours and benefits if she gets some kind of certification? Since you do like her work, and a bigger paycheck is her goal, coming up with other options can be helpful if at all possible.

      I agree that you definitely shouldn’t brainstorm cheaper childcare options. That crosses a line. Nothing good comes from judging other people’s personal expenditures– even if the other person did something as foolish as email a list of her personal expenditures, unprompted, to her boss. It’s a very cringe-y move, for sure, and there’s a small part of me that’s like, “she’s literally asking to be judged; she’s setting up an argument based on her expenses, so of course the defense is to pick holes in her expenses.”

      But that part of me is petty and should be ignored. All that happens from listening to that voice is needless, ugly arguments. Try to stay positive. Focus on what she *can* do to get what she wants. She made a mistake, but hopefully you can help her recover and turn it around.

      1. Pennalynn Lott*

        Thanks, IndoorCat. This is her first non-retail job, and the retail job was only for a few months one summer. She’s in her 20’s and a stay-at-home mom. We hired her, in part, because although she has several very young children, she had childcare during work hours taken care of. (Other candidates were like, “I can absolutely dedicate myself to 4 hours of phone calls every day with my 1-, 2-, and 4-year old children in the house and no other adult to look after them.” And that’s just not realistic).

        We pay *very* generously, for this type of job. With bonuses, she averages $22/hour. If this were a full-time position, she’d be making $45.7K. I have recently-graduated friends who have 2-3 paid internships under their belt working at Big Four accounting firms who are making $45K. [We’re in a medium COL area, not somewhere like the coasts or expensive resort areas.]

        We don’t have the workload to support a full-time position. It’s me, Boyfriend, the guys who clean windows, and her. We aren’t big enough yet for someone to schedule clients 40 hours a week, and likely never will be. My assumption was that this position would help her learn enough skills and business norms to get a decent full-time job somewhere else in a year or two.

        We made it clear that there isn’t a growth path to anything bigger and better when we hired her. She said she wanted the job because she felt guilty with her husband being the sole contributor. He’s an HVAC technician and makes ~$50/hour. This job was supposed to just be a tiny assist in the household expenses and a way for her to get some work experience to put on her resume.

        I guess I just want her to learn business norms; to change her thinking from “I need X amount to cover my new expenses,” to thinking about the value she brings to a company; and to internalize that she is providing a service for us that has a market value, and that she should always be monitoring (a) the market, and (b) how her efforts align with the market and whatever company she’s working for. I feel like this position is similar to an internship: it’s a training ground for someone with no experience. I want her to leave us better equipped for her next jobs, knowing how to properly value — and ask for — what her skills and work effort are worth.

        Lastly, we can’t afford her entire asked-for raise. Not without cutting some of our own personal expenses (which are not, by any measure, extravagant) and, besides, that’s not how business should work. It was already a stretch to hire her; Boyfriend (business partner) had been doing the scheduling himself and wanted to free up his evenings. It was tough for him to justify it, but it freed up enough time for him to fit in more clients that he can work by himself, which means we don’t split that income with employees. [Not an extra four hours’ worth, more like 1-2 hours, because now he can work until 4:00 or 5:00 PM instead of stopping at 3:00 so he could come home and make calls.] We can look at increasing her bonus for clients she gets scheduled and maybe add in a spiff for clients who leave positive reviews based on her efforts (calling them or emailing them to ask for a positive review) because the reviews definitely have non-zero dollar value to our company. But doubling her pay just isn’t feasible.

        1. Enough*

          The problem I’m having is that you seem to want to give her a raise. Realistically is this actually a $22/hr job and is a raise justified? She’s been there 4 months. You says it’s was a stretch to hire her but have you even quantified how much she has helped increase your revenues? Especially as you indicate that boyfriend was doing scheduling 10 hours a week to her 25.

          1. Pennalynn Lott*

            Sorry. My math wasn’t coming through. Boyfriend quit cleaning windows at 3:00 so he could be home by 4:00 and make calls for four hours, five days a week. The extra five hours is miscellaneous data entry. So Boyfriend was tied to the phone from 4:00 PM until 8:00 PM.

            But. . . reading your question, “Realistically is this actually a $22/hr job and is a raise justified?” has made me pause. The answer is: I don’t think a big raise is justified, but she *has* brought more to the job than we anticipated, and I’d like to reward that. BUT I’d like to reward it in a way that helps the business instead of just increasing expenses (because we already pay above-market), which is why I want to tie it to scheduling more clients and coaxing people into leaving positive reviews, versus just raising her hourly pay.

          2. WellRed*

            Pennalynn, I agree with this. You are putting way too much thought into this. You’d be doing her a kindness to educate her a bit on how all this works, but in no way are you obligated to do anything else, especially considering a raise.

  247. Anonnonaanon*

    I had one of the best onsite interviews I’ve ever had last month and I’m still waiting to hear something. I’m in higher ed and things do tend to go slowly, but… this is a little long of a wait for it to be a positive result. I really liked the people and the location, the job felt like such a great fit, and I’m so ready to leave my current workplace (we’re losing people right and left). Can I ask for some good vibes??

    1. Reliquary*

      You bet! I’m rooting for you! (Especially since higher ed gets so much grief on this website, and I’m an academic, and I love my job!)

      In case it helps, it took almost three months after the on-campus interview at my current job for them to contact me with an offer. And I was the last one to interview! So hang in there!

      1. MissDisplaced*

        I understand academia to be a very long hiring process, so no news is good news. Hope you get it.

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