open thread – September 20-21, 2019

by Alison Green on September 20, 2019

It’s the Friday open thread! The comment section on this post is open for discussion with other readers on anything work-related that you want to talk about. If you want an answer from me, emailing me is still your best bet*, but this is a chance to talk to other readers.

* If you submitted a question to me recently, please do not repost it here, as it may be in my queue to answer.

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  1. Pam Beesly*

    On Tuesday, our sales manager went to a customer site to do a presentation in which he needed to log into our company’s teapot making website.

    I used to be the sole teapot making specialist at my job, but have since moved departments. Our current teapot making specialist is on vacation this week.

    So, my sales manager calls me at the office frantically on Tuesday, saying that his login isn’t working for the teapot making website, and he needs my username/password. I felt uncomfortable giving it to him, but he is my superior (although not my manager), so I did. He wanted me to give it to him over the phone (in an open office!), but I chose to email it to him, requesting that he delete the email ASAP.

    I know that our corporate office would say giving our passwords to ANYONE is a no-no, but I felt obligated since he was frantically trying to login to give a roomful of several customers a presentation. I have since changed my password so that he can’t access it again, but I’m frustrated that he asked in the first place. He obviously should have tested his login before the presentation to make sure he could get in, since he apparently does not use the teapot making website often (unfortunately, his M.O. is his unpreparedness).

    Is there anything I can do about this now? Should I tell him that in the future, I’m uncomfortable giving my password out?

    1. Rex*

      Could you talk to someone on your IT team? Maybe it would be an easier convo if you said, “I asked IT what we should do next time this happens, and they said X” (probably CALL US to reset your password). And they could help explain to you why what they asked for was really problematic.

      1. Pam Beesly*

        I should have mentioned in my letter…the procedure 100% IS calling IT to have them reset passwords when we’re locked out. Our sales manager is fully aware of this. I think he chose to call me because he “needed to login ASAP”, and sometimes when you call IT, you can be on hold for quite sometime before you reach anyone.

        1. Rex*

          Well … that’s not ideal. It’s probably not in your area, but it’s a good idea to have an emergency IT option available when needed. But might IT be willing to deliver a scolding to this guy? Depends on how they fit into the org.

          1. tamarack and fireweed*

            That would be my line of approach too. I’m very very firmly in the camp of “never share your passwords” (my spouse doesn’t have any of mine, nor I of theirs), but a roomful of customers waiting for a presentation to start is a justified exception, if the PW is immediately reset, as in your case. But you should be totally able to bring it up with whoever at IT does user education. Also, if your actual superior is on board with reasonable PW security, I’d tell them, too, so that they can have the message delivered over to the other person’s reporting chain.

            BTW, email is pretty bad, at least not end-to-end encrypted. Text message and some chat apps would have been better. You might want to ask IT to delete the email message from the server.

            If you think that this sales manager might rely on you in the future, it would be important to convey the message that this was a one-time thing. Also IT should be made aware that sometimes processes for immediate assistance are needed.

            1. hamburke*

              My spouse and I put our password locker passwords in each other’s password locker just in case anything happened to one of us and our oldest child has mine in case something happens to both of us. Of all of the morbid planning, that’s really the only thing we’ve done…

              1. tamarack and fireweed*

                Yeah, the password locker I use has a “assign a recovery person” function, and I’ve been trying to get this set up for us, but we use different password locker apps for the moment!

        2. Observer*

          Ask IT what to do in an emergency. And, also talk to YOUR supervisor about how they want you to handle this of it happens again. If they will have your back on holding the line on whatever IT tells you, then that’s how you should handle it. If you get the sense that they won’t back you if the sales guy gets ticked, then you give him what he wants and then change you password again.

    2. Qwerty*

      Is it possible to have a demo account that can be used during presentations instead of a real account? An even better long term solution is a demo site that has its own database so sales people can create/modify orders on the site without it actually going into the business’ feed. Using a demo account and/or site means that you don’t need an account for each sales person, and they can let the potential client check out the site themselves.

      1. Pam Beesly*

        Yes, I think that would definitely be possibly to have a demo account set up (and who knows, one might actually exist for this reason!) Thank you, I’ll definitely look into that so that he can use that account in the future.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          We have a ‘department account’ associated with a published feedback form. People forget it exists, but when they come scrambling for website accesd uts one we can shout from the rooftops. Zero private info,controlled access, or HR links. Very useful.

    3. Ella P*

      Glad you changed your password. Short of encouraging him to test his login ahead of time, what can you do?

      Have a dummy login setup for those traveling, if that makes sense and they don’t need to access their full account or other programs as well? For safety and security’s sake?

    4. Kes*

      I would definitely follow up with him (and with the new specialist, if they’re back) but since he’s your superior I would frame it as following up out of concern to ensure he has the access he needs (read: so he doesn’t have to use yours). I wouldn’t bother telling him you’re uncomfortable sharing your password since I suspect he’d just override that but I would say you’ve discovered it’s against policy and as such have changed your password and won’t be able to share it in future

    6. Angelinha*

      For what it’s worth, in the future, it’s better to give it over the phone which is secure, rather than sending it over email! (But I wouldn’t’ want to say it in an open office either.)

      One time our IT director asked me for my password while he was helping me at my desk. I was like “ah…do you mind if I just type it in myself?” and he thought I was being weird but I reminded him that IT themselves are always telling us not to give our passwords to anyone. But the real reason was that my password was something embarrassing and I didn’t want to say it out loud!

      1. facepalm*

        That’s weird of an IT professional to ask. Anytime I’ve had to have IT to do anything on my computer, they ask me to enter my password (and usually they even turn their heads or bodies away so they aren’t looking).

    7. Kimmybear*

      I’m working on an IT security training at the moment so here are a few thoughts: 1. giving out your password is big no-no and giving out your password should be covered in your IT policy. 2. good for changing your password. Also make sure you change your password anywhere else you used the same password. (don’t do that anyway but people always do) 3. Do you have an automated password recovery method so he can change his own password? 4. Let IT know because you may not be the only person that he does this too.

      1. Quill*

        For certain programs that we have, we have one password connected to our network ID. Which is probably just fine for internal databases, if you know where to find that data you’re probably one of the few people who needs it.

    8. nonymous*

      What I do in this case is I log in and share the program via IM. This obviously doesn’t work without a ready internet connection or if the demo is really long, but I just treat it as if a coworker walked over to me and asked for help and we’re puzzling through something together. Super inefficient and awkward for something as silly as a login, but that’s on them.

      In general, I suggest asking if there is a self-service reset option available. At my org we have a 2-factor login and a separate OS login. So if you forget one you can use the other to reset it without getting the helpdesk involved.

    9. peg*

      Honestly I wouldn’t be stressed about this at all. I’d give the login info, wait for the presentation to be over, then I’d change my password. I wouldn’t even give it a second thought. Maybe I’m in the minority but I just think this is pretty insignificant. If this was a pattern, I’d probably bring it up to him and be like “you always seem to be in a pinch, I can’t be the one to bail you out of your tech emergencies anymore and need you to get used to calling IT instead of me” but for one time, the password was used very briefly in an urgent situation where clients were involved, and then you changed the password.

    10. Feline*

      You should tell him you can’t help him and he needs to call IT to reset his password. No matter how frantic he is.

      My sister was demoted and eventually lost her job for being the person who sat next to someone who did what you did and not reporting it. When it came out, she was treated as harshly by management as the people who used someone else’s login to access systems to which they weren’t authorized and the person who gave away the login information.

      Don’t share your login information. Ever.

      1. Cat's Pajamas*

        Yes to this, also, depending on what data is in your system you could be compromising the security and privacy of other clients, especially risky of you deal with minors or medical info. A demo site is a great idea and used in many industries.

    11. LGC*

      So, I think you…didn’t do the right thing in terms of pure opsec, but you did do the right thing for the company in this case. The sales manager is…not great, to say the least, but it sounds like giving him the password for the presentation was the least disruptive option overall, and I think you managed the risks pretty well in this situation.

      There’s two problems; 1) he might expect this going forward and 2) it seems like resetting passwords through IT is an onerous experience. Ideally, for things like that, he’d be able to reset it himself in a couple of minutes – if you have the capital to go to IT with that, I’d possibly suggest that?

      If he asks you again, you owe him nothing. You did your one big favor to him for your professional career. He can call IT and have them reset it if he forgets his again.

  2. The Actually Mad Scientist*

    I want to thank everyone for your wonderful advice last week about how to talk to the hiring manager (Sally) because I was upset about not being offered an interview for a position opening in my department. After reading all of your wonderful advice, I talked to Sally and used words a few people suggested, where I said “I was upset that I didn’t get an interview after what I thought was 4.5 years of quality work. As you know, my long-term goal is to get a permanent position here. Do you have any feedback on my application/resume? Is there anything you think I can work on in order to get to the level to be considered for a permanent position?”
    She responded that over 45 people applied and there were only 6 positions open, and with that many people they couldn’t have given interviews to everyone. She said that if she had one more spot I would have gotten it (which is probably just BS) but that my application looked fine and my work is fine and the only reason this time was because, with 45 people applying, they limited it to only people who had direct experience in that particular lab, which happens to be the only one that I’m not cross-trained in. Basically I guess they wanted people that they didn’t need to train.
    I’m still bummed (because the offers came out today, so I’ve had to watch people who have less seniority than me celebrate from my desk all day) but I guess it makes me feel better that it was not personal, and it wasn’t even anything that I had any control over. Thank you all so much! I would not have talked to her if it weren’t for all of your wonderful advice. 
    I got invited to a networking event at a managers house this afternoon, so I’m looking forward to that! Anyone have any last minute advice?

    1. Dasein9*

      The only advice I have for the networking is to try to be in a good mood when you get there. After a day of watching people celebrate from your desk, maybe that means you give yourself some kind of small treat today? Something within budget and any dietary restrictions, of course, but something to just help you feel good? People want to spend time with happy people.

    2. Ella P*

      No advice, I’m like an anti-networker but I hope you enjoy and it leads to other opportunities for you in the future.

      I think that it’s amazing that you spoke to Sally and got some feedback, even if some of it could have been BS and not specific. Confirmation that it wasn’t personal really frees you up and I hope helps you move on. And you stood up and made it clear you are looking for a role and I think that’s much better than the impression that you’re upset/not a teamplayer/anything negative.

      Have fun at the event!

    3. Kes*

      So I didn’t see your initial post, but perhaps you can talk to your manager and express your interest in opportunities to cross-train on that lab if that’s a growing area in your department? And at least you know that based on what she said, if opportunities come up for other areas/labs you should be in a good position applying to those.
      Good luck with the networking, I don’t have much advice in particular but I agree with the suggestion to do something beforehand to try and make sure you go into it in a good frame of mind.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 I would definitely ask your manager to help you close that gap between your resume’ and the position you want…

      2. The Actually Mad Scientist*

        Thank you, I can’t actually do that. I’m a contractor, and we just opened up a new facility to do testing of this antigen. The reasons that these positions opened up was because, by law, us contractors are not allowed to work in them and they have to be full-time employees because of background checks and etc. So thank you for the advice, but this is not something that I can do now that the new lab is operating.

        1. IL JimP*

          I wonder if there’s other ways you can learn the skill without actually working in the lab. Is shadowing an option (maybe not with the BC but who knows). Or are there any classes you can take internally or at a local school to gain the knowledge?

    4. Muriel Heslop*

      It sounds like you handled everything really well and the outcome was as positive as it could be. Enjoy the networking event – sounds like a great opportunity!

    5. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      “She said that if she had one more spot I would have gotten it (which is probably just BS)”

      I absolutely hate statements like that, statements like “if it were up to me,” because people who say those things never have to back them up. There’s no way of knowing if you really would have gotten the job if it actually was “up to me.”

    6. Sally*

      It’s taken a while, but I’ve finally learned that (IME) networking events are best used to meet people and not have any expectations. It really takes the pressure off. I can now go to these things and talk with people, find out about their work, share things from my work that relate or are helpful, and collect business cards. I make sure to write on the back the date and where I met them because I’ll never remember otherwise. I hope this isn’t too remedial, but I wish I had figured this out a long time ago…

    7. Anon for this*

      The best advice I ever got in terms of networking (as someone who always used to feel uncomfortable and vaguely sleazy at such events, like I was just there looking to see who I could use) was to look at it as an opportunity to help others. Every person you meet, think about who in your network might be able to help them and who you know that they might be helpful to and try to connect them. It takes the focus off of yourself and by helping other people, it builds their goodwill toward you, making them more willing to help you in the future and more active about wanting to do so. Hope this is helpful. Good luck and btw I love your username!

      1. long time lurker*

        This is BRILLIANT advice – it’s always been what I’ve done, just by default, because I am much more comfortable helping people than accepting help, but it’s the reason I’ve been as relatively successful in my difficult field as I have. Anytime I meet someone, I think about who in my network I can connect them with. The benefit to me is that I therefore end up at the center of a whole bunch of good professional connections, and I’ve ended up with a reputation as a connector and as someone who ‘knows everyone’.

        The thing is, I genuinely do love connecting people, and in each individual situation, I really don’t care if I end up benefiting; I just want to help. And ironically that’s what’s helped me most of all.

    8. Kiwiii*

      When networking with people you sort of know or know of, you’ll make a really good impression if you can comment on something you already know about them (“I heard X project went really well” or “I heard you got published in Y”) and then follow up with a way you’re related to that/something you’re doing in the same vein or ask them more about it.

  3. Tabby Baltimore*

    For The Man, Becky Lynch:

    You mentioned in a post from a while ago that, over time at your job, you have automated a lot of your office’s–not sure how to say this, data feeds?–and it sounded like doing that enabled you and your employees to stop having to manually enter data, and instead get it pushed to you all automatically. You have done so much of this work that it sounded like you are now basically looking at what might be a dashboard, rather than a spreadsheet, every morning.

    If I’ve got that right (more or less), I’m dying to know: how did you do that?

    Could you take some time today to lay out the steps you took, from the beginning, to locate the sources of the data you needed, then what you did to get it automatically delivered to the right people in your office, or to the right programs/applications/systems you’re viewing the data/dashboards in?

    Thanks!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I may be able to help you a bit, I did this at my old job and I’m starting this at my new job.
      The first thing is that you need a software to help you bring everything together and distribute it. You can feasibly do this through SQL, but it is a bear. I used Tableau before and I’ll be using Qlik in my new job.
      Generally, you are going to track everything people do to prepare the reports and then automate those steps by writing internal calculations. At my old job, there was a lot of hand finagling (I don’t think this case should be red, so I’m going to make it green) and all that had to stop. So I had to put policies in place, do a bunch of training to show people how to properly code items, and create reports that would flag items that needed correction.
      Once you have a good understanding of what each person does to prepare the data and the calculations, you can start building those calculations into your reporting software. Sometimes it’s easy, like counting how many calls came in, but sometimes it’s “how many calls came in to operators with the Senior title, were on the phone for more than 10 minutes, filled out a call survey, and had a survey score less than 5.”
      I used Tableau Server to set up distribution lists to send some reports through email, some were ongoing reports so they were available in the Tableau portal anytime someone wanted to see them. And then I had some critical reports that I personally posted once I had validated the data.
      I don’t want to drone on for too long, so feel free to ask some direct questions!

    2. leukothea*

      I’m not the person you asked, but I do this work as well. It’s an entire discipline in technology, in fact, and there are many pieces to the puzzle! In my case, we have a data warehouse that ingests data from many parts of the org, and we have both SSRS and Tableau dashboards that feed from the data warehouse. Sometimes we side-load data from other sources, but the data warehouse is the best source because we have already cleaned the data, confirmed it to the correct shape for reporting, and permissions are baked in.

      Anyway, people make entire career out if this and it’s a hot field!

      1. CSD*

        I don’t do this at all at my current firm but see how it would be so helpful. What would roles doing this type of work be called?

      1. AndersonDarling*

        If tableau can get to the SAP data, you should be able to. I did all my data modeling in Tableau and added in all my custom calculations. I was working with smaller datasets so I was able to use a live connection, but it will work with an extract as well.
        My DBAs were very happy to have the calculations on the reporting (tableau) side so they didn’t have to mess with it. It made it easy to make updates to calculations and check the underlying data whenever something came up.

    4. Kiwiii*

      My team does something similar to this for data we receive from certain child welfare agencies? Between SQL in the back in and xml in the front, we create dashboard and reports for them to better understand what’s upcoming and make it less likely that a service might get skipped.

    5. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I’m unfortunately not sure what you’re asking and what data you’re talking about? Is this about timekeeping setup? That’s the only thing that I can think of?

      I’m such a loudmouth that I’m wondering if you’ve got me mixed up with someone else? The only dashboards I can think about is my payroll/timekeeping ones!

      Otherwise it’s also a bunch of importing and exporting between programs [an internal system created by The Wizards and then my standardized over the counter software for accounting & timekeeping]. I’m not programming anything, I’m not a wizard tech person =(

      1. Tabby Baltimore*

        I just remember you saying something along the lines of how bored you were getting, because you didn’t have as much work to do as you used to, and it was because you had done so much to automate so many of your company’s processes. Sorry I can’t point to the specific post anymore!

        1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

          Oh right! I understand now, no worries.

          It’s all due to the software we use. We have our system that was built by the programming wizards that did it all. So I’ve never done so little by hand in my life.

          My whole life is mostly catching computer errors or order entry errors. Everything is pulled through the system but it’s so streamlined that mistakes do get pulled along with it.

          So sadly I can’t walk you through that, I just say to make sure your company invests in the best software for what you do! There’s a lot of different software and it mostly all talks to each other on some level. I only do AR in one system and AP in another system, then they get to “chat” via import and reconciled that way. Just data file to data file chatter.

    6. You Get Cheeseburger!*

      Could something like this work for timesheets? We still have to all do paper timesheets and I’ve been wondering if we could google forms or Smartsheet or something to at least partially automate the process. Though, I’m not sure how supervisors would be able to approve them tho.

      1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

        *stabs air* You just need to get any basic timekeeping software that’s out there, then the administrators would have access to confirm and approve changes etc. I’m crying inside over the fact that there are still paper time sheets.

        There are also places that do use a shared spreadsheet to clock in and out, you could go that route if you all have computers available. Lots of POS systems have timeclock built into them for that reason. I used one for the short stint I did in the restaurant industry, you just jump on the POS and punch in your number and in/out, etc.

        I can think of a few industries where you have to track hours due to billable hours, that this wouldn’t be as simple with but if you’re not in the billable hour field, I’m stink eyeing so hard [not you, the institution that is still using timesheets and not investing in the technology available.

        If they are small enough and use Quickbooks they can also look into T-Sheets. Actually it may be available without QB but that’s what it’s meant to do, to sync up your timesheets and payroll.

        1. The Time(sheet)s They Are a-Changin'*

          I’ve been using Toggl (free version) for time-tracking and love it. Just being able to run a report of the week is making me giddy. I feel like I used to spend crazy amount of time on time sheet otherwise. Now I just click a button, or can enter an amount, and can go back if I realize I forgot to click the button…

          3. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            Is this just for your own personal time sheet calculating?

            I love that this is a thing but at the same time hate that employees are tasked with finding these apps on their own, since so many will just struggle and some aren’t tech savvy [I live in a world where I still have to “do the computer thing” for people who are brilliant in so many other ways but yeah, not “the computer thing”. I am the go-to for “My phone is acting a mess…”, I happily lump it under my HR duties over the years which I know most others would not but I’m a bleeding heart, I cannot turn away people for things that are literally a couple clicks on my end and it makes them so happy ;_;]

        2. You Get Cheeseburger!*

          I roll my eyes so hard every month when I have to fill them out! I work at a college and I would guess that over half of our employees are FTE. Our staff who are unionized and hourly have a digital clock in and out system, but the rest of us all print out paper sheets and schlep them to HR. Which then I assume someone is doing manual data entry? Which I would think ups the risks for typos and probably takes FOREVER. Plus, the amount of paper we all go through once a month.

          1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

            LMFAO it took a UNION to get them a timeclock? Yikes! Yeah, I bet it’s a cost thing over all. A lot of places like to think about the initial charges only and not what it saves you over the years it is in use. Yes, timeclock management isn’t cheap out of the gate, it’s a hefty price if you get the really good ones. However the error rates go down, the frustration levels on all sides employee, approval person and payroll is lowered and the time spent on the GD thing goes way down!

            I want to know their error rate on paychecks…

            No. Wait. No, I don’t. I’ll lose my GD mind. That’s how so many errors for PTO and Sick leave get all over the place, if it’s not automated in some way.

            Don’t get me wrong, I have had to tally up manual punch cards in my life. Guess what I did? I input that stuff into an online time sheet calculator to avoid any math errors. I know not everyone is doing that and it’s time consuming AF.

  4. Awkward Moose*

    I wrote in last week about how my co-worker Fergus and I were working together, Archibald, a manager of another department, seemed to be giving Fergus a hard time about being there with me.

    I don’t know if Fergus feels uncomfortable now or if something else was discussed, but he’s been acting differently. When I do see him, he seems awkward and starts talking about his girlfriend. He used to joke around more, but now he doesn’t.

    I was in another male-dominated job where this happened and it’s frustrating. It also affected my ability to do my job. (The guys would take away materials that I needed to do my job and ignored my requests for help with work, even though it was their job.)

    I see other women my age talking with male colleagues and think, how do they do it? What’s the secret?

    Fergus and I have to work together- do I just deal with this awkwardness? Has this happened to anyone else? What did you do? Any advice is appreciated.

    1. Qwerty*

      I don’t really have advice, just sympathy. I’ve run into this too many times to count. The women you see talking to the guys have probably dealt with it too at some point. It really just has to do with the maturity of the people around you. Archibald is the one making things awkward. There’s no “right” way to deal with this, since it could backfire. My personal route probably would have been to say something like “Ugh, people like Archibald are why women don’t want to be in this field” or “Gotta love sexism” after Archibald walked away, (or something worse, depending on how fed up I was that day). Not as a planned statement, but because I’m just sick of that type of behavior. But I’ve also been on my male coworkers’ case about taking over the responsibility of dealing with the Archibalds and immaturity in my field because the women are tired of doing so.

      1. anna green*

        Ugh. Yes. Same here. I would probably do the same. Continue to call it out and make it awkward for them when you get treated differently. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn’t. If Fergus is a good person and is just caught in the middle, this may help him be able to ignore Archibald.

    2. Kes*

      Oof, that sucks and is awkward.
      Honestly I would probably try and treat him more as a bro to emphasize the fact that you’re not interested in him (eg. ‘Hey man, how’s it going’ – imitate how the guys treat each other and play it up a little more), and if you have a significant other feel free to mention them as well

    3. Minocho*

      I would bring up what you saw with your manager. You might not be able to address this with Archibald directly, but your manager should know what you saw and heard, and you can mention the difficulty Archibald’s actions and words can cause you with regard to your ability to work effectively with your coworkers. This sort of thing, on a systemic level, can negatively impact your effectiveness at work, and hopefully your manager will recognize this too and work on it, even if only to protect his employee(s) and his turf.

      You might be able to directly address it with Fergus too – even if you just let him know that there was nothing about you working together that you found inappropriate for a professional work relationship.

    4. EddieSherbert*

      UGH! That’s annoying. If you have the opportunity, I’d call Archibald (or others) out in the moment for being sexist (because that is sexist as heck!).

      “Hmmm, that’s a weird thing to say, Archibald. Why – exactly – does it matter that I’m a woman?”
      “Excuse me? Are you saying you have concerns about me talking to male colleagues?”
      “Wow. I’m trying really hard to to think of a non-sexist reason someone would say that, Archibald.”

      You can also just stick with “That’s a weird thing to say to your coworkers,” “Wowwwww.” (in a disbelieving tone) or “Excuse me?” (in a confused tone), but I personally like being *very* clear of how it looks to me.

    5. Jules the 3rd*

      Talk to Fergus, maybe something like, ‘Hey, after Archibald made ‘comment x’, it seems like you’ve pulled back a little. You don’t have to do that on my account, and I really hope you’re not doing it because Archibald’s being weird. You and I can be grownups about working together, right?”

      1. Ms. Meow*

        This! I’ve had to do this before, and explain the sexism behind attitudes like Archibald’s. Though your mileage may vary. In one case it helped, and that coworker became more outspoken about sexism in situations like this. The other caused the guy to completely withdraw from our work friendship; I heard through the grapevine that “his career was more important than his working relationship with [me].” Good luck!

    6. CupcakeCounter*

      Archibald got in his head. Probably some variation of “everyone has noticed and has been talking about how close you and OP are getting – I’d be careful if I were you” or “haven’t you noticed how OP seeks you out so much or blah, blah, excuse to talk to you? I think she has a crush and is behaving inappropriately and you need to watch out so she doesn’t ruin your life.”
      You need to get this shut down with Archibald and with Fergus. Call out the behavior when Archibald starts talking about whatever. “Oh its YOU TWO again. Every time I’m over here I see the two of you together.” Respond with “Well yes you will since this is our department and we are doing our jobs.” If Fergus starts rambling about his girlfriend, give him a puzzled look and say something along the lines of “Yeah…I know all about Celia. Why are you talking about her when I asked about setting up a meeting with Boss regarding X Work Thing next week?”

      1. Bagpuss*

        I think this is good, however, I also think that it may be helpful for you to mention her sometimes – not every time you speak with him, but maybe sometimes when you are having a social conversation, even if it’s just “How was your weekend?” make it explicitly about him and his girlfriend trather than just him e.g. “How was your weekend? Did you and Celia make it to that gig you mentioned?”

        That way, if he has internalised Archibald’s assumptions that people will assume you are flirting it should hopefully counteract that.

        But also definitely explicitly call out hisbehaviour and tell him that you have had some weird comments from Archibald and that it’s importnbat that Fergus doesn’t start treating you any differently because of your gender.

        rame it that way. “I know you have never treated me any differently bcause of my gender, before, and I am concerned that you are starting to do so now.” (and if necessary, you can remind him that you are not interested in him a or he in you, expect as coworkers,)

        1. Ace in the Hole*

          Thinking about it, I (female in a VERY male-dominated field) typically frame questions to my colleagues this way. When we’re making casual conversation I’ll usually ask after their spouse, kids, girlfriend, etc… I hadn’t considered it before now, but I think this is one of the ways I subconsciously try to establish that I am Not Available.

    7. QCI*

      I would bet money Fergus was told something along the lines of ‘he’s getting too friendly’ or perhaps something about “appearances”, of how you two look from the outside.

      Or even the girlfriend had a “chat” with him about his female coworker.

      1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        This being 2019, I cannot help but wonder if Fergus was told something like “be careful, she might report you for harassment and you’ll lose your job, you know how these women are nowadays” (barf)

        1. Fortitude Jones*

          Yeah, I keep hearing men say stupid shit like, “In this Me Too era, I can’t even talk to women at work anymore in case she gets mad and accuses me of sexual harassment.” Men at my last job kept saying variations of that mess, and it made me roll my eyes every time. It’s like, dude – we know the difference between you doing your job and just being a damn creep.

          1. QCI*

            But does EVERYONE ELSE know the difference? It looks like Archibald clearly didn’t, and possibly caused this issue to begin with. Sometimes office gossip can be just as bad.

            1. Autumnheart*

              Harassers don’t know the difference. Well, okay, they DO know the difference, but the part they’re having a hard time with is that now they get in trouble for their behavior.

    8. UKCoffeeLover*

      I would ignore Archibald and talk to Fergus. An earlier commenter suggested a helpful script.
      Is always best to clear up awkwardness in my experience.

    9. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Happened once – I asked a colleague at an OldJob if we could go to lunch to talk work, because the questions I had for him were all related to workplace dysfunction that I did not feel we could discuss in the office. We ended up going and having a productive conversation, but the initial response I got from him was “I have to warn you, I have a new girlfriend and I’m a terrible liar” dude, what?!

      As everything else in my career, happened a lot more often with my generation (older X) and older generations than with the millennial coworkers. And by a lot more often, I mean “never happened with the millennial coworkers”.

      1. Observer*

        The ideal reply would be an enthusiastic “excellent! Then I can be confident we’ll have a productive work discussion! Thanks!”

        1. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

          That is a good reply! Pretty sure mine was something along the lines of “dude, what?” I absolutely had not seen that coming and was confused!

          1. I edit everything*

            I think a flabbergasted, “What does that have to do with anything?” would be a pretty effective reply, actually.

          3. Gumby*

            My automatic assumption is that none of the men around me are attracted to me. Especially in the office when I am at work. Working. Focusing on my job which is the whole reason I am there and what I am being paid for.

        2. Close Bracket*

          Bc some guys genuinely can’t think of any other reason for men and women to have a conversation than romantic interest. I don’t even make friends with guys anymore. If they want to make friendly overtures, that’s fine, but I’m done doing the reaching out.

    10. Michelle*

      Definitely talk directly to Fergus. Many great suggestions upthread. Archibald is an arsehole and definitely said something to make Fergus pull back.

    11. Jill of All Trades*

      Honestly, in the few cases that has happened to me I have simply withdrawn and become professional but distant with that person until they get the hint that we are COWORKERS and I don’t actually want to date them. Like ever. It’s not terribly fun, but it’s better in my opinion than trying to breach the awkwardness that comes from someone else not knowing how to handle this type of situation.

    12. tamarack and fireweed*

      I’m a middle-aged lesbian who’s worked in male-dominated fields for most of my life, and I had to read your post twice to figure this out. This is pretty outrageous and deeply unprofessional of them! Presumably mostly Archibald who is putting Fergus in a bad situation that he doesn’t seem to have the maturity or maybe status to stand up to. I’d go to my own boss and ask that this be addressed with Fergus’s boss. You’re there to do the work and you can be expected to be treated like the professional you are.

    13. Don't you be that kind of barn owl*

      Do you have or can you develop a relationship with these other women? It might help to talk to them about how they have successfully negotiated these unnecessarily treacherous waters.

  5. MCL*

    I have been in my job for just over 10 years, and I am fortunate in that I really enjoy it. I currently work in an academic department in a large state university, so I have a physical office that I go to every day and have a decent amount of face time with my co-workers. I just saw a job that I’m very intrigued by, which pays slightly more (like 5K) than what I currently make. It’s a position at a non-profit with a very small team (this opening and two other staff), and the work is remote. This small team is very geographically separated – one person in in the UK, the other in NY (I am in the Midwest). For those of you who have transitioned from an office job to remote work, what questions should I be asking here? Are there things you wish you had known?

    For what it’s worth, the remote working bit isn’t necessarily a motivator – my current commute is very easy and my current job is flexible enough that I can WFH if I need to. In fact, I already know that I’d prefer to go to a co-working space because I just work better in a dedicated work space that is not my house (at least, that’s my take from WFH days in my current job). I think it looks like a super interesting opportunity with slightly higher pay. There is travel involved, but I like to do that (to an extent), so that is an attractive piece too.

    1. M. Albertine*

      Make sure you take a HARD look at the benefits package, moving from state to non-profit. I made a similar move a couple years ago, and $5K doesn’t begin to cover the reduction in benefits.

      1. MCL*

        Definitely on my radar. I have an excellent sick and vacation time package, retirement benefits, etc (health insurance is through spouse’s employer). If there are not comparable benefits offered at this non-profit, I will probably need to pass.

    2. Mama Bear*

      Be clear about things like availability, core hours, team communication, and meetings. We had a guy in Hawaii at my last job and sometimes he got up at like 5 AM to Skype into meetings. The downside of remote work is feeling disconnected – both to your team and to your boss. How do they plan to (for example) handle social events (like a holiday lunch) for those who are remote? Will you be able to drive over to an office and join in? Will you get the equivalent time off? Where will your boss be? Would it be at all beneficial to you to keep your office or some work space at the university? If not, are you paying for your workspace or will they give you a stipend? What restrictions might there be on where you work – are you handling any sensitive data that should not be discussed in, say, a coffee shop?

      One thing I wish I’d realized is that people don’t really understand that WFH is work, so I’d clarify with friends and family that no, you are really on the clock. I had family think I could spend all day cleaning the house and minding kids (mine and theirs) and that just wasn’t reality. Working in a co-working space is probably going to help that.

      Good luck. It sounds like a good gig for you.

      1. Mama Bear*

        I’m sorry, I need more coffee. I realize this is a change of company, so if you got it the whole “keeping the office” thing wouldn’t apply.

      2. MCL*

        Yeah, the wide dispersal of geographic location of the team is a concern for me! I don’t want to start my work day at 5AM, so I’d need to clarify core hours. If I were offered the job I think I’d try to negotiate some sort of subsidy for workspace. Great point about the confidentiality thing. It does seem like they do virtual conference calls a lot, so I’d need to make sure I had a place where I could do that.

        1. CherryGirl*

          I was surprised at the jump in my electric bill when I went remote, especially during the summer when the AC is on all day, etc. Ask about how things like office supplies and printer ink are reimbursed, will they reimburse part of your WiFi costs or if you need to replace your computer chair, etc.

          It’s also good to get an idea of how much collaborative work you need to do with colleagues and their availability. I’m in the Midwest, most of my team is in the UK, and when I’m working on joint projects that can really be a problem.

          1. MCL*

            Thanks so much! It’s helpful to have the perspective of someone in the Midwest who works remotely with a team in the UK. Definitely will ask about how equipment, connectivity needs, and supplies are dealt with. My instinct is that I would be happiest at a co-working space so I won’t have to worry as much about my home’s electric usage, but that’s definitely a hidden cost that I would not have considered!

            1. Fortitude Jones*

              Yeah, I work from home in the Midwest (half of my team is in Europe; the rest is dispersed throughout the US and Australia), but my electric costs didn’t drastically increase – I think it went up, like, $10-15 extra dollars a month. But some companies will reimburse for your electric usage and will pay most or all of your internet/phone costs, so you should ask about this.

              I second the suggestion to ask about core hours. My current manager really doesn’t care when I work because I’m involved in global projects, so there are times when I’ll be on a conference call at 1am my time and will need to sleep in to be productive for the day. The only thing she said was to try to ensure I can provide coverage/help to my US colleagues on the east coast, so I took that to mean if I start work between 9am-10am and am still around at least between 3pm-4pm, I should be fine. But, again, global projects doesn’t always allow for that.

              1. MCL*

                Definitely great to keep the reimbursement/core hours thing in mind. If I get an interview I’ll be sure to ask about these. Since the only other two staff members are in totally different time zones, I’m curious how much they’re already doing.

      3. MCL*

        To provide a clarification, the small team of three is the entire staff of this organization. I realized I referred to it as a “team” in the original post without making that detail explicit. So, this is an extremely tiny non-profit. So if there’s someone on the team I don’t work well with… well, that’s going to be a magnified issue. :)

    3. CSD*

      I transitioned from an in-office to a remote role (though within the same company) and even with established relationships with my coworkers, found it can be difficult to keep up with overall company flow, news, and communication. Make sure you ask questions about how you’re expected to communicate with your coworkers, navigate the time difference, expectations on delivery with regards to time zones, and general accessibility (will your supervisor expect you to be accessible and will they be accessible for questions?)
      I didn’t find the WFH aloneness to be a problem, and I expect that might be even less for you since you’re looking at a dedicated work space/co-working solution.

      1. MCL*

        That’s a really good point about accessibility. Since it is a tiny team of three FT employees, all of whom are remote, there needs to be really clear expectations for communication. Since all three of us (assuming I were hired) are in totally different time zones (UK, NY, Midwest), I want to make sure this is feasible without me needing to have totally wacky work hours. I value my 9-5 core hours.

        1. 8DaysAWeek*

          This. Find out how much you will be working with the colleague in the UK. Will you be on projects together that you need to meet via phone often?
          I used to work in IT and got burned out fast in my last few years in the group. I was working with people in Europe (eastern and western) and Asia. I am on the east coast of the US, but having daily calls with some of these places made it difficult to maintain that “9-5”.
          The advantage of WFH though is that if it is not a video call, you can be in more comfortable clothes.

          1. MCL*

            Yes, I think that would be a pretty big factor. I already do some work that requires contact with people in the UK, and it can sometimes be a challenge.

    4. san junipero*

      I’m working remotely for the first time, so I may not be the best source of advice, but the one thing I made sure to ask was about getting access to a coworking space if I needed one (i.e. if my company would pay for that). They said they wouldn’t pay for a full-time coworking space since I don’t actually *want* one, but we found a compromise that would let me leave my apartment at times while still mostly being at my home office.

      The time difference has been a bear, although mine is more significant than yours would be. Still, definitely ask about how they manage it. In my case, most of my company is 12 hours away, so I’ve already had a number of meetings take place at *someone’s* 8 or 9 PM.

      I’d also ask about flexibility of movement if that’s something that interests you. Some remote places require you to remain in your home country (although if someone is in the UK, that bodes well for international flexibility). Some, like mine, are open to a full-on digital nomad life.

      Last: would you be a contractor or an employee, if this is something that matters to you? That was a big discussion when I came on board, because being a contractor in my city is a huge pain, but it’s obviously much easier on their end.

      1. MCL*

        That’s really helpful! Flexibility of movement would potentially be an advantage at some point. My spouse and I own a home in our current city, but we have considered moving. Having a remote position on my end would give us much more flexibility if we chose to make that happen. I’d definitely think about an international move some day if it were in the cards, but it’s not high priority for me at this point.

        Your point about contractor status is well-taken. My impression is that this position is considered an employee, but it’s not made explicit in the ad so I’d want to ask.

      1. MCL*

        I would definitely negotiate some sort of subsidy on the space. If I couldn’t get their agreement to that, then I would probably pay it on my own… it’s one of those things that I think I would need to stay engaged and productive.

    6. Rainy days*

      Would you get face time with the rest of your team during travel?

      I work remotely with a team on a side gig (not my core job) and it’s so hard to build rapport. Not that rapport is necessary, but it does help. If you can see them in person every few months, it goes a long way toward making your remote work smoother.

      1. MCL*

        There are conferences 3-4 times per year, and a few additional meetings for the executive and steering committees. I would definitely be at the conferences, and my assumption is that this position would also attend the meetings but I’m not sure. I do a lot of in-person work with my current team (I share an office with my closest teammate and we work really well together), so it would be a huge shift in how I have worked. Something to consider for sure.

    7. AcademiaNut*

      There are a few things that I would be really careful about. One is benefits – I would be really shocked if a tiny non profit had comparable benefits to a large public university, and I would expect the difference in value to be more than $5k. Also as others have said, be really clear about what they’re covering – will they cover coworking space costs (maybe, maybe not), but also who pays for a printer and ink, a laptop, work phone, chair that’s good enough to sit in all day, repairs or replacement, web camera, necessary software, and who pays for repairs and replacements. How much will A/C at home cost you in the summer? Also, what is the raise/COL at your current job (that can be highly variable at universities!) and can the new job match that. Do they fully cover travel expenses and budget for decent travel and your own hotel room?

      The other thing I haven’t seen mentioned is the size, not the remoteness. If you take a job with a 3 person company, I wouldn’t expect it to be as stable as the university job. Go in knowing that the company could fold at any time, that if someone quits your workload could skyrocket for an extended period, that there won’t be the sort of HR/admin structure you’re used to, and that things may change suddenly – maybe they hire someone in a new time zone, and suddenly you’ve got 6am meetings three days a week. Be sure to ask about expected email/work availability outside of normal office hours – will you be expected to respond to queries from the UK, for example. But go in expecting to leave if you’re not happy.

      Also – I work in projects with people scattered over the world, and telecons outside of 9-5 are a fact of life, it’s just a matter of how often and how outside (I have a twice monthly 9pm Friday meeting, for example).

  6. Gimme A Chance*

    I am applying for a job in which I need to have a license and a good driving record. I have an overall great driving record, but a year and a half ago I got a speeding ticket in a poorly-marked school zone. I decided to play it safe and defer the ticket instead of trying to fight it. The judge even agreed with me (after I had already deferred) that the sign was barely visible.
    However, I’m concerned about honesty if they decide to interview me. My official record is spotless, but I still know that I did have a moving violation even if it was never entered into my record. I don’t want to lie, but I also don’t want to cost myself a job. Of course, this might not be an issue as they might not want to interview me, but I want to be prepared just in case. What should I do if it does happen?

    1. Bobbi Books*

      If anyone asks you can say honestly that your record is spotless. No one has to know WHY it is spotless. This isn’t a lie.

    2. Sunflower*

      Don’t say anything. They will most likely run your motor vehicle report if the driving record is necessary and it will come up clean.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yeah I’m going to second this. For most companies, a good driving record doesn’t mean a spotless one. They’ll run your driving record and determine if they find it acceptable or not. I’ve gotten a speeding ticket as well that I just paid instead of fighting, so I’m sure it’s on my record and when I was hired at my current job they ran a driving record for me and I was still accepted. I think most places figure that people have a speeding ticket or parking ticket somewhere. They’re looking for a pattern.

        1. Gatomon*

          A pattern or something egregious like a very recent DUI is probably what they are looking for. Almost everyone has gotten a speeding ticket at one time or another – I actually got a reckless driving ticket in HS and it has never stopped me from any jobs with a good driving requirement.

    3. SomebodyElse*

      I wouldn’t worry about this too much. I used to review driving records as prehire conditions and I looked for a couple of things:
      DUI
      Careless/Reckless tickets
      High quantity of speeding tickets
      Driving without insurance
      Driving under Suspensions and/or revocation

      1 speeding ticket in an otherwise clean driving record would not have been a big deal.

      So I would not give this another thought. Even if for some reason they find out about this it’s not a red a flag and your failing to mention it would also not be a red flag.

    4. CupcakeCounter*

      Also…one speeding ticket from a year and a half ago doesn’t matter. Good driving record simply means you don’t have a bunch of tickets and accidents for whatever reason, especially DUI’s and that type of stuff, not that you can’t ever have gotten a ticket. Professional truck drivers get tickets all the time.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. I got a ticket from a misfiring red light camera and the ticket was dismissed. I don’t even count that kind of thing. That’s not on your record. They want to know about big things, and it might not even come up if they just go by what they pull from the MVA.

      2. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

        I get one about every three years. Used to get more when I first started commuting across town. I am fairly certain that employers and other orgs that do BG checks more or less ignore speeding tickets, unless there is an unusually high number of them per year. I vaguely remember me being asked about my traffic violation record during my naturalization process, and me sheepishly mentioning speeding tickets, and the other person basically laughing and saying that’s fine. And I once had to go to court because I’d gotten three in a year. One that is not even on your record is totally fine.

    5. T. Boone Pickens*

      Yup, I think you’re totally fine here. The language is funny in that a ‘clean’ driving record doesn’t necessarily mean a spotless one, it just means that you’re able to drive without any restrictions and you’re insurable.

      I’m in agreement with @Somebodyelse about their parameters for checking out driving records. One speeding ticket 18 months ago wouldn’t raise an eyelash for me.

    6. Kuododi*

      Well, in situations like what you describe…my personal approach is that I won’t volunteer the information. If I am questioned directly however…I will not lie. Best of luck!!!

    7. Silver Radicand*

      Gonna agree with everyone else. I hire drivers. One speeding ticket is not a big deal. I’m concerned with DUI’s, patterns of speeding, and things driving through stop signs/lights or unsafe lane changes.

    8. voluptuousfire*

      You have a good driving record. I’m in the same boat–got my first moving violation (was caught using my phone to check google maps by a random cop) after having a clean driving record for 20 years. I just paid the ticket and plead “guilty” and while I’m irked that my spotless record is no longer so, it’s still a good driving record.

      They mean more along the lines of like no DUIs, license suspensions for unpaid parking tickets, various and several moving violations etc.

    9. Clever Name*

      You can bring it up if you want, but they are looking for things like a ton of at-fault accidents, DUIs, an excessive amount of speeding tickets (I’m confident that a single speeding ticket that doesn’t show up on your record does not meet the definition of excessive) etc. And I seriously doubt they will ask about your driving record in your interview. I once worked a job where I had to have an FBI background check, and it was not mentioned during the interview and I wasn’t asked anything about arrests or whatever.

    10. Kiwiii*

      One speeding ticket doesn’t usually mean that you don’t have a good driving record, and even if it does show up somehow or come up, I can’t imagine they would think you’re a bad fit from that alone.

    11. LawBee*

      The violation doesn’t exist. You can honestly say you have a spotless driving record, which will be born out by the actual official driving record if they order one (and you can order one for yourself just to confirm), and that’s what they are looking for.

      1. Delta Delta*

        Or, if you want to be technical about it, you can say you have no ticket adjudications on your record. Depending on the jurisdiction the fact a ticket was issued may show up but since it was dismissed it should should show that, too.

  7. Hermione*

    How do you personally deal with burnout during a job search?

    Background: I’ve been in my position for about three and a half years, and while I’m good at it and sometimes enjoy the work, I really want to be in a higher-level role with more responsibilities. I’m not going to get that here (and there are other problems afoot more generally in my division) so I’m looking elsewhere. I don’t NEED to move on immediately, so I’m being rather picky in what I apply to, but I’m starting to feel pretty burned out doing lower-level work. Can anyone relate? How do you stave off the burnout and get your work done?

    1. Donkey Hotey*

      I am in a similar position: At work for two years, accomplished as much as I can and am looking to migrate but being picky about what I go for.

      For me, I asked for sign-off from my boss to start taking Lynda coursework when I am caught up on my regular work. He was 100% in favor of it, as the company had to pay zero (our local library provides Lynda for free to all cardholders). In the mean time, it helps my current employer, as I can do more. And in the long term, it helps me. Taking courses in a completely new system does wonders for staving off my burnout.

      Good luck!

    2. ACDC*

      When this happened to me, I scaled back (within reason) how I was working. I stopped trying to be a superstar and just did the bare minimum to not raise any eyebrows. I worked 8 hours a day, and left promptly when 8 hours hit. I did not look or respond to anything work related outside of being at work, and I made sure I had at least 1-2 things a week that I really looked forward to. I also started using CBD oil to help keep the anxiety and frustration at bay while I was at work. Taking small breaks several times a day to go for a walk or read a book were really helpful for me too. Good luck on the job search!

      1. CSD*

        I agree with this – do the work you have to to continue to be a good employee, but you already know being an excellent employee isn’t going to get you anywhere, so take that time and energy and focus it on finding another job. I also found I spent more time developing personal hobbies during downtime since I now had the energy to focus on it.

    3. Bird Person*

      What helped me in that situation was pursuing professional development opportunities outside of work and putting a focus on building my network. I joined my field’s professional society and pursued accreditation, which gave me some interesting things to do that pushed me intellectually while I was feeling stifled at work. The time at work is harder to deal with though. I typically resort to time blocking with the promise of a small reward (fresh coffee, a walk around the building) if I get the small tasks done.

      1. LunaLena*

        I did the same. Outside of work, I took on more freelance work and spent more time on my online shops, which are a combination of creative playground/side gig for me. Breaks at work were generally spent planning what I would do next for my shops, so I’d have something to look forward to later.

    4. Alternative Person*

      I chunk the daily stuff basically.

      First, I try to do as much of that day’s printing and admin when I arrive so its done and I’m not rushing around later in the day.

      Then I go to my list of ongoing projects- mostly prepping materials and work on the ones that have the least amount of leeway. I also set a limit on how far ahead I need to be (i.e no more than two units ahead) so I’m not over-working on stuff that won’t be needed immediately, but I’m still mostly ahead of the curve.

      Any time left over goes to personal projects (some work related, some less so). Giving myself permission to work on my own curricula that isn’t directly required for the job (though sometimes, it does get used) gave me something to look forward to and makes me feel like I’m achieving something.

    5. Kiwiii*

      If you can focus on one thing you’re doing that you still like or are interested in continuing learning that might help. My last job was heavily admin and I had gone in with the expectation that I’d be there for 1.5-3 years as a foot-in-the-door position, but I figured out within 4 or 5 months that that was just not going to be something I was going to like or be good at and I couldn’t make it a year. There were some data organization and report-adjacent things that I quite liked doing, though, and I learned as much as I could about those aspects, volunteered to do the next step or larger overviews of those things for high level meetings, and became really knowledgeable and reliable regarding that, so much so that it didn’t matter if my work was average at best with the rest of the stuff I was meant to be doing while I was job hunting.

    6. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Loving these suggestions, since I’m dealing with the same. Like others have mentioned, I’ve been exploring areas of professional development on my own accord. While trudging through my job search, I’m keeping busy working on a side project and practicing my programming skills. On a personal level, I’m also allowing myself more indulgences than usual. Meet ups with friends at my favorite bar, bubble baths, and watching more movies. I think it’s okay to treat yourself when you are struggling.

  8. Fridge Frustration Fighter*

    The habits of people in my office regarding use of the break room refrigerator are so weird. Everyone crams their items into the door while leaving the shelves inside the refrigerator practically empty. It’s as if they are too lazy to actually reach inside. Meanwhile, I, a person with a disability who really can’t reach inside, can never find any reachable space for my own items. I’ve tried placing a sticky note in the door politely asking that space be saved for those who can’t reach anywhere else, but it is ignored. It is just so frustrating. I reached a new high in my fridge frustration last week when, while trying to fit my lunch into the least overloaded top shelf, my knee lightly brushed the middle shelf, which was so overloaded it gave out and spilled out onto the floor. And there I was, helpless to pick any of it up, and just angry at people for causing the situation.

    2. throwaway123*

      Maybe put a handicapped symbol sticker where you want to put your lunch and get your manager to notify everyone that area is reserved just for you since you cannot reach inside. Anyone who puts their lunch in your reserved spot has to bring the rest of the office coffee or a treat as a fine.

        1. Fridge Frustration Fighter*

          I can with the higher drawer and do use it when available, but it’s often already occupied as well.

          1. Alston*

            How about you leave a decoy Tupperware to reserve your space. Put something non perishable in it even for weight so people won’t just chuck it because it’s empty. Then when you get in put your lunch in there and remove the decoy.

      3. zora*

        I would definitely find an ally to help you, if not your manager, an admin, HR person, etc. And have one spot marked as reserved for you. Then everyone else can fight over the rest of the door (Like weirdos. I don’t get this either, I’d automatically use the bigger space if I had the option) but you have that one space.

        1. valentine*

          have one spot marked as reserved for you.
          And choose the door spot you can reach most easily on your worst day. Don’t go for something you can theoretically reach or reach most days. Don’t try to be accommodating. These people are seriously weird.

      4. Quill*

        This is much better than my suggestion, which would be to stick a biohazard sticker on the fridge and watch people clear the heck out.

      5. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

        If there’s an “accessibility” sticker or “reserved” sticker, I’d use that. Then, if some one puts their stuff there just move it. Seriously. (If your office is big enough that your boss/HR needs to send a message about the note, go ahead so people have been warned).

        If you want to keep your original note below it so it’s clearer, go for it. Combine it with the fake/empty Tupperware suggested below and your spot should be yours all the time.

        It may just be a case of “spots” in the fridge like “spots” at a conference/room/bus–creatures of habit. I’d just move the other person’s stuff to a shelf.

    3. T. Boone Pickens*

      I’m sorry to hear about your frustration. This is almost like the phenomenon when someone parks in a near empty parking lot and another car despite having a multitude of other open choices, elects to park right next to your car (and inevitably door dings you in the process.)

    4. Laura H.*

      Loop your manager in.

      Also depending on if this is feasible w/ your office culture and also that beyond the fridge weirdness, your coworkers are courteous, maybe ask someone to help put in and retrieve your lunch. (I know asking for help sometimes feels weird, but it’s always an option.)

      Good luck :)

    5. LadyTesla*

      It might be simply a size thing. I used to have a taller lunch box that wouldn’t fit in the shelves, and had to use the door.

      1. zora*

        Can’t you turn your box on it’s side tho?
        Also, fine if you are one person who really needs to put theirs in the door, but is it possible that every single person in this office has a tall lunch box? I doubt it.
        And if that is the case, then they should remove a shelf in the fridge so that people can use that shelf instead of the door.

    6. Juneybug*

      Could your office get another fridge in the break-room? Or could you place a mini-fridge in your office for your own personal use?

  9. Dankar*

    Friday PSA for any boss who needs it: Please don’t use the shared work bathroom barefoot! Especially not when the people you’re supervising can see you making the trip back and forth to your office!

      1. valentine*

        While this seemed gross at first and most non-infant feet gross me out, what’s the problem? Any transfer would also be distributed via shoes.

        1. Gatomon*

          Well in addition to the poo and pee particles that are normally transferred on shoe soles, now there is foot fungus to worry about.

        2. Damien*

          It’s less about the transfer and more about having poo and pee and potentially fungal/warty particles on their actual skin, and then inside their socks and shoes.

      1. EddieSherbert*

        +100

        I used to have a coworker who did that… but she also used her neti pot at her desk (despite all of us in her cube block telling her to stop multiple times) and joked that she should start “hanging her used tampons in her cube” when another coworker lost it and yelled at her that she was gross.

          1. EddieSherbert*

            Yup. Then she’d take that to the bathroom to dump out, and lay out the neti and cup on a towel on her desk to dry. It was odd.

            She was pretty far removed from social norms – she ended up getting fired after sneaking her boyfriend… who she had a restraining order against… into the building on the weekends so they could get wasted and watch pirated movies on her desktop monitor.

              1. EddieSherbert*

                Clearly, but at the time the neti pot thing seemed obvious to us and we didn’t know there was anything else going on.

            2. Sharrbe*

              Wow. Talk about having no judgment and few boundaries. I would have flipped out over the used tampon comment too. It’s gross to even joke about.

            4. Kat in VA*

              But…doesn’t a neti pot pour water into one nostril and it runs out the other? Did she…collect the used nosewater in another cup? I’m appalled and I don’t even wanna know, I GOTTA KNOW.

    7. Mother of Cats*

      I work with someone who does the barefoot shared toilet thing too. We have a big four stall women’s toilet that rarely gets cleaned but thankfully most of us are tidy people so it’s not gross but like enough people have been in there in outdoor shoes and likely spilled bathroom stuff without noticing, and she goes through the office (fair size office) from her desk at the far end through reception and into the loo in her socks all the time.

      In a situation that likely doesn’t surprise anyone, she also doesn’t wash her hands. If you’re at the sinks at the same time she does the whole turn the water on and splash water on your finger tips thing but if you’re in the stall and can’t see her she just does away with the pretence and leaves without even running the water.

      This is all around so gross. Wear shoes in common areas, especially the toilet! and wash your hands with hot water and soap every time. I touch the handles after you!!! Your hands are now dirtier than they were before by just splashing water on them and walking away. ARRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!

    8. Ella P*

      What fresh hell is this? Is this a thing??? People can’t do their business and keep their shoes on?

      Man I really have heard it all today…

    9. san junipero*

      To be fair, I used to do this.

      …when I worked at a pool, and the bathroom was on the deck, and I could rinse afterwards, and only if I didn’t have time to get my sandals.

      I cannot IMAGINE doing it in an office environment, holy cannoli.

    10. Kiwiii*

      There’s a dude in my office who’s always barefoot (who I have to work on a project with currently) and I am just so .. upset every time I see him.

    11. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      You’re going to be horrified by this but…when I taught swim lessons, we all went to use the bathroom barefoot. The same bathrooms that the under 8s in the lessons used. None of us got anything worse than athlete’s foot, though I would recommend avoiding sharing swim flippers because that’s a guaranteed plantar wart or toenail fungus.

    13. ThisIsNotWhoYouThinkItIs*

      I find this interesting. I totally wouldn’t care unless the person was putting their feet on something I owned or had to touch later. Why does it bother you so?

      …of course, I’m a barefoot often (but not in the work bathroom because people are gross) person….

  10. Rhonda Retirement*

    I’m having a hard time writing a cover letter where I’m taking a major downward shift position. My husband and I only need me to work for the health insurance. I just want a 20 hour a week position where I can keep my pension. The jobs exist, I’m just having a hard time writing that I’ll be a good employee and not get bored. I hate my current job. I don’t want to supervise or mentally take work home with me. I just want a chance to do good work while I’m at work and hopefully have the job for the next 8 years.

    1. Clorinda*

      “I am looking forward to moving into a part-time position at this stage of my career”?
      And if anyone asks why, it’s “family reasons.”

      1. WellRed*

        Agreed. I think this is one time where being older is of benefit when job searching. That said, do employers in your area offer health insurance to part timers?

        2. Rhonda Retirement*

          I’m lucky enough that there are health insurance benefits to part timers – well, 50% paid by employer – which is all I need at this point.

      2. Rhonda Retirement*

        that sounds like promising wording.

        I feel like I have to address this in the cover letter or a hiring manager will just be left scratching their head or jumping to conclusions.

    2. Ali G*

      When I was looking for lower level work due to burnout, I said something like: “I am looking forward to using my skills to contribute to and support a team in work that is meaningful to me.”
      When asked if I would be bored/why I didn’t need to make as much money as before I said: “I am lucky to be in the position that I can choose to work less and at a less stressful level and I am looking forward to doing just that.”
      good luck!

    3. JessicaTate*

      Definitely address it in your cover letter to get ahead of speculation, and make it clear that you WANT less time, responsibility, and won’t be bored. The other suggestions here are good. When I was hiring recently for a junior position, I got a resume from a very experienced person. I was skeptical/confused until I read the cover letter; they said something like, “In planning the next stage of my career, I have reflected on what is most important to me, and JOB TITLE is exactly the type of position I’m looking for. I want to convey that I understand the junior nature of the position. I view this as an opportunity to XYZ.”

      They got ahead of my skepticism by being very self-aware and clear why they wanted this. I was less worried that they’d be bored by the job / didn’t understand it was a lower level position than they’d held. I think if you can make that kind of statement — looking for a place you can contribute, be enthusiastic about your work, but at a scaled down level of time and responsibility from what you’ve been doing… I’d get it and consider you!

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        I think this is excellent advice. I often get resumes for lower level positions from people who are clearly further along in their careers. Many–maybe most–applicants do not address the discrepancy anywhere. I am left to assume that they are simply applying to everything, and I immediately stop taking their application seriously. I’d even go so far as to emphasize that you do have a plan for the next 8 years and why that plan looks the way it does. That way, you forestall any thought of “Oh, she’s just burned out from her current job. As soon as she gets a little rest, she’ll want to move back into the fast lane.”

    4. Parenthetically*

      You appreciate that this position can offer you a better work-life balance? You’re looking forward to a long season of enjoying more free time while also putting 100% into a job while you’re there? The part-time aspect will enable you to tackle the job’s tasks each day with diligence, energy, and a fresh mind?

    5. Kiwiii*

      Is there an aspect of the job specifically that you’re interested in? Can you emphasize why that appeals to you over other work/the work you’re currently doing? Maybe you could highlight that you’re excited for the flexibility of shorter work hours and are prioritizing that over pay? Highlight your desire for work-life balance?

      When I was in my first career-adjacent position, my boss hired a woman in her early 50s as our program assistant (heavy admin, but with some other interesting work as well) and she’d specifically come from a higher-level/stress, though not management, position and was candid about doing related work w less responsibility as her husband was planning on retiring in the next couple years. So it’s definitely been done.

  11. Marion Q*

    What’s the minimum amount to ask for reimbursement?

    Last Saturday I had to visit a branch office two cities over. Fortunately we have good train service with very cheap fare, so I really only paid for the motorbike taxis. The total cost of the taxis is approximately $25 (I’m not in the US). It’s standard fare; I spend similar amount of money for my commute every day.

    The two coworkers, who’ve worked here quite longer, told me I should ask for reimbursement, but I’m not really sure. It feels weird to ask for such a small amount of money. I kinda feel like … Penny-pinching? I guess I’m just not sure what the reasonable minimum of money to qualify for reimbursement.

    So, should I? How do you determine what amount is worth asking for reimbursement?

    1. Colette*

      I’d ask – you were there for work, and it’s a business expense. I’d talk to your manager and say something like “What is the policy for being reimbursed for things like motorbike taxis when we are visiting branch offices?”

    2. Jay*

      If your company’s policy is to reimburse travel fare, then absolutely ask for the reimbursement no matter how small! I once asked for reimbursement for $1.50 in postage, it’s not that I couldn’t afford it, it’s that it is a business expense and employees should not be personally responsible for business expenses.

    3. MCL*

      I always submit for every dime of reimbursement that I am entitled to. I’m not here to subsidize my employer’s expenses. Submit your expense report with a clear conscience!

    4. CatCat*

      If it’s reimburseable, I seek reimbursement. I don’t care how small. There is no minimum for me of seeking a reimbursement.

      1. valentine*

        There is no minimum for me of seeking a reimbursement.
        Yeah! You can always give it away, but, just like your pay, don’t base it on need.

    5. The Original K.*

      I’ve asked for reimbursement for less. It’s not about what I can afford, it’s about what the company is responsible for. I say ask, expect to get it, and feel good about it.

    6. Aly_b*

      I have asked for reimbursement of transit fare of $2.75. It is a work expense, you should be reimbursed for it. This is totally normal.

    7. Policy Wonk*

      If this is a one-off, I can see your reluctance to claim it. But those $25 trips can add up if you do this often. I think the lowest amount I ever claimed for a taxi was about $9.00. But the process for reimbursement is a hassle, so I generally hold my receipts and submit them when I have a bunch. Saves me some paperwork, and makes me realize how those small amounts add up.

      1. Marion Q*

        Yes, it’s once or twice every six months. The process is also a hassle, which makes me even more reluctant.

    9. Junk Food Octopus*

      I’ve asked for business reimbursement for Lyft fare to our office downtown – anywhere from $15 to $30 each. It didn’t feel like penny-pinching since it would set a precedent; the company sent me down there, and they should cover it. If they started sending me every day, it would quickly add up, so I definitely asked for reimbursement.

    10. ACDC*

      To echo the sentiments of the other commenters, any amount is worth reimbursing! That being said, your company could have a policy on a minimum for reimbursement, but that seems unlikely.

    11. HappySharpie*

      I think you can absolutely ask for a reimbursement. It was travel for company business. I work in grants, and we only reimburse based upon receipts so I’ve reimbursed some small amounts (think less than $10). I think $25 would be an average request. We can get reimbursed for mileage for certain things and sometimes I’m just too lazy to turn in the paperwork, but sometimes I’m not and it ends up in the $25 to $35 range. I would say don’t forego asking for the reimbursement just because you think it’s a small amount.

    12. Sled dog mama*

      My rule (which seems to be what Alison endorses) has always been that if it’s not something I would ordinarily be spending to go to my normal work site and return home I apply for reimbursement. So my normal commute is on me but when I got to work one day and boss called and said I need you to go handle this emergency at other site the extra mileage for that (or train fare or taxi fare if that’s how I got there) is on the business.
      I’ve been lucky enough to always work for companies that don’t have a minimum item amount to be reimbursed just a minimum to get it issued as a separate check. Policy is anything less than (I think) $500 is issued with your next paycheck anything over the default is with next check unless you request a separate check (sometimes faster). Yeah company did the use your own card and request reimbursement thing as default but they would do an advance (sort of a down payment on travel expenses) in some circumstances.

      1. Oh No She Di'int*

        Are there really companies out there that have a minimum reimbursement amount? I find that shocking if we’re talking about the US. I would think that in the eyes of the law, compelling an employee to spend money and then not reimbursing it would amount to withholding of wages, no? And there is no minimum amount that makes that illegal. Withholding one penny is just as illegal as withholding an entire paycheck.

    13. Ginger Baker*

      I enter expenses all the time for a wide range of positions. You can – AND SHOULD – get reimbursed for every business expense that is covered [by which I mean: travel etc. not say, a book you bought to read on a flight]…there is no minimum amount and absolutely no one you work with or in accounting will so much as blink when you enter a set of receipts all under $5. I have entered *numerous* receipts for, say, $1.25 water for an attorney who was travelling.

    14. Witchy Human*

      If a travel expense is no more than a few dollars more than my normal train commute, I usually don’t ask for reimbursement. Otherwise, absolutely.

    15. Meg Danger*

      Is this a typo? Did you mean $0.25? Depending on which country you are in $25 or $0.25 could be reasonable. For a quarter (or USD equivalent) I would probably just eat the expense, or wait until I had taken enough taxi rides to justify the expense of the paper/ink/postage to send a reimbursement check. For $25 absolutely ask for reimbursement.

      Side note: I wish my wage were high enough to think it would be reasonable to eat a $25 business charge :)

      1. Marion Q*

        Not a typo! I don’t live in US or UK (which I gather is where most readers here are from), and I can’t simply convert because the difference between USD and my currency is too great (the actual cost, if converted to USD, would be around $3). So I tried to guess an equivalent number, but I guessed wrong :/ basically, think of the base fare for Uber or Lyft, and add a couple of bucks.

        Aaaaand I just showed everyone how bad I am at math.

        1. BetsCounts*

          I would ask your manager if it is ok to accrue these small expenses instead of preparing a reimbursement for each item. With an amount that small, it does get to be more of a pain to request reimbursement, but Half Caf Latte is making an excellent point- it is important for the company to know exactly how much it costs to do business.

    16. IvyGirl*

      You should ask to be reimbursed for anything other than the travel from your home to work and back. So, train tickets, taxis, all of it.

    17. Half-Caf Latte*

      Yes, you should submit. I have also submitted for less. In addition to what else is said here- this helps the business understand what its expenses really are, and helps normalize reimbursement. The next person in your role, or another employee, might really need that reimbursement, but feel pressured not to ask for it if you/others don’t.

      This isn’t a social situation, where it might be awkward to ask a friend to pay half of an inexpensive cab ride. Businesses don’t have feelings and you can totally ask, it’s normal and expected.

    19. ArtK*

      It’s a business-related expense, you should be reimbursed. It doesn’t matter if it’s a tiny amount. Ask yourself this; “Why would I want to give my salary back to the company?”

    20. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      I’ve had 59p for a stamp before.

      Yes, you absolutely expense it. Some accounts departments prefer if you combine several small amounts on one claim, but yeah.

    22. Parenthetically*

      “How do you determine what amount is worth asking for reimbursement?”

      Literally all amounts that are an expense I incurred while doing my job. It’s not your job to decide whether or not it’s a reimbursable expense; if it isn’t, you won’t be reimbursed. Submit it. Don’t use your own money, however little, to subsidize company expenses.

    23. A Bag of Jedi Mind Tricks*

      As long at the taxi was for business purposes–getting to or from a meeting or to the local office where you traveled to, you should be reimbursed the full amount of your taxi fare (unless your company has a limit on the amount it will reimburse you for taxis while on a business trip). Also, be sure to get a receipt. Not sure what your company policy is on business trip reimbursement, but you should find out if you can be reimbursed for meals while you were on your business trip. Again, get all the receipts.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        Business travel where the client doesnt feed you, anything you buy to eat is reimbursable. Unless you brought lunch & snacks, theres probably something else like that to add on.
        Maybe ask about a petty cash advance for next time.

    24. Coverage Associate*

      $0.01

      I am insisting on reimbursement for $1.50 in internet charges that should have gone through a company account, but my boss was in a bad mood so he said not to involve anyone else.

    25. Kiwiii*

      I’ve asked for a $0.60 parking pass be reimbursed. It was during a trip where I also asked for about $3 in mileage reimbursed. It felt silly, but they were business expenses.

      1. Kiwiii*

        Additional context: We were always encouraged to submit monthly so that we’d get our money back quickly (I was in an office with 3 coworkers and a manager who were in high local travel positions, my coworker Sansa would sometimes have $1000s in expenses), but mine were always just like a trip down to the central office and back (7 miles round trip) + parking for .5 to 4 hours twice or so a month to help my manager’s boss with something or take notes for my manager and were rarely $30+ total.

    26. LawBee*

      $25 is worth asking for a reimbursement. $5 is worth asking for a reimbursement. Trust your coworkers and get your money back.

    27. Rainy days*

      I’ve asked for $5 reimbursements before. If I know I’ll be spending more money soon, I might wait and bundle it in with other receipts.

    28. Ranon*

      I’ve turned in $3 parking fees for reimbursement. It’s a business expense, it should be paid by the business! (We bill most stuff to clients, too, so if I’m paying to park in the client’s parking garage because I went to them for a meeting you bet I’m getting that reimburse)

    29. LGC*

      So, yeah – as covered, even if it’s roughly $3 in local currency, it’s probably worth getting reimbursed for it! You might also want to check your company’s policy – they might require you to submit those expenses, or at least strongly encourage it. And if you’re in a place where $3 US is like $25 to you, then it’s not really that minor.

      If your workplace is reasonable, they would allow you to submit multiple transactions at once. And it might add up if you have to do it often!

    30. Kat in VA*

      Our CTO – who probably makes well north of a quarter million a year – routinely asks for reimbursement for $3.00 tolls. It’s your money. You don’t have to donate it to the company.

    31. Hamburke*

      I cut the checks for a couple companies. One does outdoor work. Over the summer, I cut a check for the cost of a single bag of ice – under $2. Put in your reimbursement, no one in finance will think twice about it if it’s a reasonable, approved business expense.

    32. Ms Cappuccino*

      No minimum amount. If I spend £1.50 for a cup of tea when travelling for work, I got it reimbursed since I have the right to.
      $25 is a lot of money! If you don’t really need this money, you could give it to a charity rather than your boss’ pocket.

    33. Lynn Whitehat*

      I hate dealing with the reimbursement process, scanning in receipts, and all that. $10 would probably be my line of whether the money is worth the bother.

  12. New girl rayray*

    I started a new job a few months ago, and it hasn’t worked out so well. My boss just isn’t a good boss, and anyone I’ve talked to about it- including in an open thread a couple weeks ago has suggested I look elsewhere, as this just isn’t a situation that will get better, not to mention I feel under utilized and I don’t see this job benefitting me in the long run.

    Here’s my question today –
    I am going to start job hunting, and I want to be careful I find and accept a good role in a good company. There’s one company I’ve been very interested in, and my childhood best friend works there. I had applied there before listing her as an employee referral, but got a generic rejection email. However, she told me that they told her they liked my resume and wanted me for something, just that they had another candidate better qualified. It’s a fairly large company, so I asked her if she could get me contact info for a recruiter  or talk to anyone. I also have that email from last time from a recruiter (the rejection) . Is it a good idea to just send my resume and a message to a recruiter, explaining that I had applied in the past, and I would like for them to consider me for any openings in the future? And how might I word it?

    1. EddieSherbert*

      I think it’s perfectly acceptable to let a recruiter know you’re still interested in the company. Basically what you said here – I applied to this company in the past and while it didn’t work out at the time, I’d love to be considered for any openings in X department in the future – should be fine.

      I wouldn’t leave it SO open-ended (I’ll take any job in any department!) that it sounds odd, but the above should be fine for a *one-time email* with no followup (unless anther job does open up and you want to apply specifically for that).

      If the recruiter emails you back with questions or anything that continues the conversation, you should reply of course. But don’t follow up just to see if they got your resume or “to check in”.

    2. Joielle*

      Personally, I’d just wait until another suitable position opens up and apply then, list your friend as a referral, and ask her to put in a good word if she can. I just don’t think a recruiter for a large company will remember your resume and remember that you wanted X type of position when one opens up months down the line (or more, who knows). I assume you’d apply through the regular channel anyways if you saw a posting you were interested in. I don’t think there’s any benefit of sending your resume outside the usual channels, and you risk the recruiter thinking you’re a little too high-maintenance or don’t understand office norms.

    3. BRR*

      I wouldn’t. They already know who you are and unless you’re in a high-demand field, it’s not something candidates can ask of in-house recruiters (I’m assuming it’s in-house).

    4. LadyTesla*

      I think everything said here is totally okay, just know email might not be the ideal medium. I know recruiters that lose resumes in emails very quickly, especially at large companies. Ask your friend if they prefer a phone call or a automated system through their website.

      1. New girl rayray*

        Good point. Emails can definitely get lost, and even if they did look it over and have the intention to keep it for a future opening, it’s very likely it would be lost in the abyss of their email inbox.

    5. Margaery Tyrell*

      My instincts here are not to reach out to the recruiter directly – the point of a referral is they can connect you. (Recruiters deal with a lot of emails; I feel like you might end up lost in the shuffle or seen as too pushy.) It sucks that you already applied and got a generic rejection, but I’d really try and ask your friend if she can connect you to the recruiter about other roles at the company, because a personal connection is much more impactful.

      If your friend plays email tag with you about this or avoids the topic, I’d take it as a sign that your friend may have heard through the grapevine you might not be a good fit and doesn’t want to deliver bad news. :/

      If I’m wrong and things do work out, however, I think you should seriously consider if you can work with your friend. Would you guys be working together closely? I’ve heard a lot of horror stories about friendships falling apart due to work conflicts, so just be cautious there. If you guys are in separate enough departments you should be fine, but especially if your friend has some kind of supervisory role to you, things could be tricky.

      1. New girl rayray*

        That’s a good point, and I have considered if I could work with this friend. It is a good sized company, probably hundreds of employees at this office if not even over 1000. I think I could work there and be fsr enough removed it would be fine. Btw- THANK YOU to everyone who has taken the time to commen their thoughts for me on this thread . I really appreciate it! I’ll work on my resume this weekend and browse other companies. Today was a particularly bad day with my boss and it was an extra push to get hunting.

    6. Mama Bear*

      I had a situation where I was interviewed, but didn’t get the job. I wrote them a thank you and asked to please keep me in consideration for future opportunities. If there’s a POC on the email, maybe write back to say thank you for letting you know/keep you in mind/thanks for the consideration. In my case they circled back 2 months later and asked if I was still interested and I got the job. You never know.

    7. Close Bracket*

      I would not do that. I would look for open positions and apply directly and include in the cover letter that you interviewed before and still excited about the company.

  13. Ella P*

    So are employers now ghosting candidates?

    My husband had an employer reach out after he applied to a job, the owner himself since it’s a small business, phone screen him and then have him travel to the office after hours for an interview that went a few hours. Husband left feeling very good, they had a great rapport, my husband offered ideas that he seemed receptive to and was what he was looking for, said the “job is yours if you want it” and they talked salary and even discussed nailing down the details of a bonus structure. Next steps were to complete the background check and finalize the pay and bonus details once that came back.

    That was last week. My husband sent off all the background check details over the weekend and decided to follow up and make sure the owner had everything he needed this Tuesday. Left a message, no call back. He called again on Wednesday (I wouldn’t have called again so soon but so be it, they had been communicating consistently), again left a message. No call or email back. The owner had been so responsive in the past, we’re figuring this is a done deal for some reason or another. My husband was actually going to be given a company vehicle as long as he agreed to move within two years closer to the office which of course had us thinking through all kinds of details, as much as we were waiting to have things finalized. To be so sure you’re moving forward with someone to just disappear is confusing to me.

    So I know things change, for all kinds of reasons that we may never know. My husband was wilder in his youth, could something have come up in the background check? That was over 15 years ago and I didn’t think they went that far back, do they? Even so, why not a callback or at the very least an email saying “sorry, we’re going in another direction”?

    Eh, guess I’m just venting… Maybe this the norm now?

    1. House Tyrell*

      Unfortunately it’s not uncommon. I’ve been ghosted a ton by employers after interviews, or even second interviews and since I’m planning on running for office one day, my record is squeaky clean (I’ve known I wanted to go into politics since I was a child!) Employers are just rude a lot of the time for no known reason.

    2. The Original K.*

      This is common, unfortunately. I’ve been ghosted many times – not talking about sending out a resume and not hearing anything after that, but about going through one or more in-person interviews and having to assume that no news is bad news because there’s radio silence after those interviews.

    3. Mindy St Claire*

      Background checks typically take 2-3 weeks in my state. Also the person he is trying to contact could be out of the office or out of town. I think you are jumping to conclusions way too quickly.

      3. China Beech*

        100%! They should try applying for certain government jobs where the process takes at least a year and one doesn’t hear from anyone for months at a time. One week isn’t ghosting; it’s people doing their jobs (or being on travel status or vacation).

      4. Fortitude Jones*

        Especially since it’s a small business and all communication so far seems to have gone through the owner. He may be the one running the background check as well, in addition to doing other things for his business, that he just hasn’t gotten around to it yet. In a perfect world, he would have just answered the first email with this update, but he’s probably swamped and figures he won’t say anything until everything’s clear.

    4. So glad I'm out of there*

      There’s a great chance this is only related to the owner’s time, in terms of replying back. If anything happened in his business (or personal life) that was unexpected, he may just not have time to reply back right now. And especially if he means to reply with all the details you’re waiting for…it’s easy to just that off “for a few days” in order to handle it completely. Not great, but easy to happen in a small company.

      It’s frustrating on your end, because it seems that it would only take a minute to at least say, “Hey, haven’t forgotten you, unexpected crisis here, back in touch soon” but it’s likely there there’d be tons of these emails to send to vendors, customers, employees, etc etc.

      Good luck to your husband, I hope you have great news soon.

      1. Ella P*

        Thanks. We’re a little on edge, there is some timing at his current job he’s trying to be mindful of as well with his plans to (hopefully) give notice. They typically walk people out the door as soon as they quit so… maybe we need to be more patient. I had thought that perhaps the owner was away or had something going on…

        Employer time is never the same as candidate time. We shall see! And if he doesn’t hear, well, then better to know now…

        Love your name, btw :)

    5. Art3mis*

      I don’t think this is even a new thing. Before moving to our current city 11.5 years ago I flew in for an interview (on my own dime) and never heard one way or the other. And yes, they knew I was coming from out of town and paying to fly in for the interview. When trying to move back five years ago I had a similar interview that I drove to, but I still had to take time off of work and spend money on a hotel and gas, and I never heard a thing. Anyway, just wanted to say it happens, and it’s not a new thing, unfortunately.

      1. Ella P*

        Sorry to hear that. Especially when you spent money and time out of pocket. I don’t get it, I probably need to lower my expectations of people.

        We once had a candidate who could not travel in for an interview so we set up a video conference. It was actually a hassle at the time and in the end… he never showed. I felt so foolish, trying to reach him, assuming he had maybe had trouble connecting… never showed, or called or heard from him again. And I’ve also seen a manager not understand that someone was balking a bit at leaving work early for a third visit to our offices which were out of the area, not wanting to jeopardize their current job.

        Things were moving so quickly and the owner indicated that they could finalize at the end of this week so to not hear anything feels out of the norm for this situation. Thanks for the response.

        1. Art3mis*

          I’ve been ghosted plenty of other times too, but those two really stood out. Interviewing can be a pain when you have to take time off of work, but add in the time and expense of travel and it’s really a hassle. So, yeah, I don’t get why I can’t even get a FOAD email, you know?

      2. Petry Dish*

        Is there someone else you can contact in the company? I sometime like emails because it keeps a paper trail. I suggest maybe sending one more email and looping in perhaps HR? Then if no response you have your answer. Sorry this is taking so long! I feel the same after going through 5 interviews and getting no response, come to find out, the interviewer was out on disability leave and couldn’t get to his emails in the meantime.

    6. Person from the Resume*

      So you think he’s being “ghosted” after only 4 days of no response? That’s way too early to make that assumption. I know you’re excited and anxious, but give him another week before checking back.

      Hiring your husband is not the owner’s only responsibility with the company; he’s probably just working on higher priority tasks. Hiring can take months.

      Plus “checking he has everything” is unnecessary and really pushing for an update. Assume if your husband had forgotten necessary information or a document that the owner would contact him and ask for it.

    7. QueenoftheCats*

      To add to commiseration: I had to do a writing test and a Skype interview back in June for a job. I haven’t heard from my three interviewers since then, even when I emailed them to ask for an update in July/August. The job’s start date already passed. Maybe I should send them another email to ask them where they are in their hiring process (lol jk. To be clear, I am not going to email them again).

      I’m sorry that your husband may have been ghosted. I wish him well in his job searching!

    8. san junipero*

      I agree that you can wait a little longer. Hopefully you hear back soon.

      Still, I have my own ghosting stories. My ‘favorite’ is the recruiter who swore up and down that he made it his absolute mission to get back to every interviewee within two weeks. Did I ever hear from him again? Of course not.

    9. vanillacookies*

      I’ve almost never received a rejection at all, I’ve always been ghosted instead.
      That said, as others have pointed out, it’s recent enough that the employer might not have gotten around to it yet.
      Best of luck!

    10. Observer*

      The boss could be ghosting him – it does happen, and it’s not right. But it could be that this is just taking longer than expected and the boss is not good at communicating stuff like this. That’s not great either, but not as bad.

      Since you don’t know which it is, I’d just more on as though the job has gone poof.

    11. Kiwiii*

      It’s only been a week? That’s not anything to worry about. I’d assume the owner was on vacation or in meetings and/or was too busy to follow up while waiting for the background check. Call back at the end of next week if you haven’t heard from him, but assume he’s doing what he’s said he’s doing.

    12. I Wrote This in the Bathroom*

      Employers do ghost candidates, so much so that, for the longest time, I thought it was standard procedure to never call back unless it was to schedule the next interview or to make an offer. I’m still waiting on the company I interviewed with in May of last year, who said they’d contact me in about a week to let me know whether they wanted to proceed. That was the last I heard from them. That said, in your husband’s case, it hasn’t even been a week yet. The owner may be out of town, the BG check company may be unresponsive, who knows what else.

      The BG check probably has not even started yet. In my current job, I sent the information to my employer and then received an email a week or so later from the BG check company itself, with forms and releases for me to sign. If your husband hasn’t received any of that, they may not have even started on him.

    13. Ella P*

      ********UPDATE********
      Thank you everyone who replied here. Sorry for those who have be ghosted, how horrible when people are rude, like this stuff is ever easy.

      So I forgot to mention in my original post, the owner had said that they could hopefully finalize everything by end of week, meaning this week/today. So yes we were anxious but that’s why he/we were expecting to hear quickly. This is a small business that has been very responsive throughout, not like the corporate places I work at/deal with :)

      Sooo…. my husband has a personal phone and a work phone with personal calls forwarded to the work number. He had an issue with his phone last week and stopped at the carrier to have it fixed and whatever they did cancelled the call forwarding. So the two times my husband called, yep, the owner had called him back!

      So he called him today and they had a laugh. The owner was starting to think he no longer wanted to job! Anyway, he’s going in Monday after work to meet one other person, second interview style to be sure he’s a good fit and to hopefully finalize all the details of the new role.

      Thanks again everyone. This has been nerve wracking for a number of reasons for us, especially with a move needed in the near future and I have been looking for new job myself in a different area… Life. But always appreciate the commentariat here!

    14. Autumnheart*

      I’ve been given a verbal offer and told that the paperwork was on its way…only to never hear from the company again. And that was about 17 years ago. Ghosting has been a thing for quite a while, unfortunately. I basically don’t assume that I’ve gotten the job until I show up on the first day and am assigned a desk.

  14. Snarkus Aurelius*

    I’ll spare you the details, but about two years ago, I was internally promoted to work on a new team with a head honcho, Bob. Unfortunately, he hired someone, Jane, who sabotaged my work, quietly bullied me, and excluded me from all meetings. Jane wanted me gone, and she was successful. Jane also wanted me gone from my current job, but she failed at that. Bob demoted me back to my old position. During our final and extremely awkward conversation, it was clear that Bob wanted me to like him. It was then that I laid out what had happened and the lack of action. (I did not call out Bob, but that was the gist.) All of the sudden, Bob spent 20 minutes begging me for forgiveness, claiming he was new at management (he was NOT), it was all his fault, and he didn’t give me a chance to succeed. In a moment of frustration, I told him I’d never work for him again. He was hurt, but he should have seen that coming.

    The thing about Bob is that he’s obsessed with being a good manager or maybe being SEEN as a good manager? I don’t know. There isn’t a management book he HASN’T read. Unfortunately, none of that has cured him of his fear of confrontation, especially confrontation between two women. One of the reasons he got that job is because he touted himself this way and his life for “making teams great.” Yeah…I don’t have a lot of respect for Bob.

    Every now and then I see Bob. I don’t speak to him unless spoken to. When I do speak, it’s one word responses. I leave the room when he enters. Etc. No one has really noticed except the people who know what happened. I say Bob has got some serious courage by trying to make the effort with me.

    Why won’t I forgive him? Because I sincerely believe that if given the chance to do it again, Bob wouldn’t change a thing. He’d let Jane do what she did, sit there, and then feel bad when everything blew up. His desire for my forgiveness isn’t about me but rather his own conscience. This isn’t the first time that something bad started getting out of control, he didn’t do anything, and then he felt SUPER BAD about it afterward. So…yeah I don’t have respect for him. He’s trying to shield himself from the consequences of his actions. That’s a no go from me.

    Professionally, this hasn’t hurt me. I about to get a major promotion that might put me in more contact with Bob. Is there anything I can say to him to cut off this nonsense? I really want him to leave me alone. The last time we were alone, he kept apologizing nonstop “for everything that happened between us”, and I was terrified about how this would like if someone overheard us — yet another example of him not knowing how to act. He’s making me uncomfortable, especially when the one thing he wants is never going to happen.

    Thoughts?

    1. Snarkus Aurelius*

      To be clear, I’d warned Bob of what was happening in a piecemeal fashion as it was happening, but he didn’t do anything at the time. It was only when I laid out everything at the end is he finally figure it all out.

      1. irene adler*

        The next time when he starts in on The Topic, say “Stop right there.” In addition, hold up your hand to indicate “stop”.
        Then state something along the lines of ” that topic is closed to any more discussion” or ” I am not going to discuss that topic any longer.”
        Then change topics, or walk away- as you think best.
        Repeat as necessary.
        Don’t let yourself become his audience on this.

        1. Blue Eagle*

          I’d say “you keep saying that you are sorry. what are you doing to repair the damage?” or something similar (i.e. what are you doing to make sure that something like this doesn’t happen again, etc).

    2. Bilateralrope*

      I’m thinking that you should tell him that his apologies come across as insincere if he hasn’t done anything to prevent a repeat of that scenario. Thus he should stop apologising unless he’s willing to tell you what steps he’s taken. Find a better way to word it.

      Then keep treating him coldly, but professionally. Maybe stop leaving the room when he enters.

    3. Witchy Human*

      “I understand that you’re sorry. I hope in the future you will be more proactive in shutting down bullying and sabotage from one of your subordinates. We don’t need to talk about this any more.”

      1. EddieSherbert*

        I would maybe even go as far as “I understand that you’re sorry… We don’t need to talk about this any more.” and skip the middle. The middle is *true*, but he clearly isn’t changing anytime soon, and you don’t want to open the door for any other discussion(s) about the topic, or to hear about ‘what he’s going to do differently.’ You just want him to leave you alone.

        So I’d skip the middle, anddddd repeat as needed.

        1. Ella P*

          Actually let me +1 here. Simpler is best if you want to put a stop to this, especially if you may have to deal with Bob more in your new role (congrats on that btw!)

          1. valentine*

            I’ll spare you the details
            Okay, but details are great.

            “I understand that you’re sorry. We don’t need to talk about this any more.”
            I might make it “Let’s leave it there,” lest he insist that he must continue until you come around. What if you accept the apology as a way of closing the issue? Not that either of you mean it or that you forgive him, but if you accept, he’s got nowhere to go, unless he insists he needs to hear you say you forgive him.

            I would return to professional behavior, because you’re still colleagues and, if you’re a woman, this is more likely to harm you than him, and you’re already worried. I wouldn’t issue ultimatums, either, unless prepared to quit on the spot instead of working for him.

      2. juliebulie*

        Perfect.
        If Snarkus A is going to have to work with Bob more in the future, then this nonsense has to stop.

        What happened in the past is in the past. If Bob is really sorry, he can show it by dealing effectively with the next problem.

    4. Allie*

      To be fair, this all happened 2 years ago. I think you can make the choice to let it and and forgive. You not being able to forgive Bob or Jane is only hurting you…especially if you’re up for a promotion that could put you in more contact with him.
      If Bob approaches you again with an apology just tell him you’ve decided to let the past be the past. That should cut out his constant apologizing and after that you should work on having a polite professional relationship with him…Because you DO have to work together. That doesn’t mean you have to nurture a friendship with him…it just means that you’re refusing to let the past dictate your future.
      We don’t always get to choose who we have to spend our time around…but we can choose not to hold on to a negative experience and allow it to dictate our lives.
      Good luck to you!

    5. Kes*

      I mean, I agree that Bob sucks, but if he still works there I really don’t think you’ll be able to refuse to talk to him forever over this and not have this impact how you’re seen or your career, especially since you’re now being promoted to a position where you’ll need to work with him more. And to be honest, your continuing to give him the cut direct is probably leading him to continue to try and beg for your forgiveness. I really think that being slightly cool and interacting with him only when needed, but being totally professional and polite whenever you do come into contact with him, might serve you better. You don’t have to forgive him for what he did but you do need to be able to interact professionally with him (and not make things super awkward for everyone else around, because that won’t make them think well of you, even if the original fault is his).

      1. Falling Diphthong*

        The promotion probably means that new people are going to notice the cut direct. They won’t care about the history; they care that no one make work awkward for hapless bystanders.

        Like Allie and Kes, I think cool professionalism would be a better way to go. “Let’s leave that in the past” and firmly moving on to the topics of today, but not monosyllabic responses.

    6. Jules the 3rd*

      What you need is an ongoing professional relationship with Bob. Here’s how you get there:

      1) You stop avoiding / punishing him. You don’t trust him, but you do behave politely and professionally around him. Leaving the room / 1 word answers are neither polite nor professional.
      2) Next time he starts apologizing, say “Bob, it’s water under the bridge. I hope you’ve learned to be more proactive about bullying situations, but I’ve moved on. Please hold on to your lessons learned and leave the rest of it.” + SUBJECT CHANGE to a professional topic

      Note that these scripts don’t absolve him of guilt, or say you forgive him, or say that you trust him. They just say he needs to let go of the apologies. He *will* assume that you forgive him, let him. That’s on him, not you.

      1. Mama Bear*

        Agreed. If you’re being promoted, you’re no longer the underling you were before and shouldn’t feel like you need to flee. After so long it now reflects more on you than him. Love #2 above.

        1. voyager1*

          I really like script #2 as well. But there is a elephant in the room. You told Bob you never wanted to work with him again. Now here 2 years later you will be working with him again. I think you need to apologize or say something about that. If you tell him his actions are “water under the bridge” that doesn’t absolve you have being pretty petulant with your former manager. He might let it all go or he might not. I would probably say something about being regretful for those words and hopefully you and him could have a fresh start.

          1. LilySparrow*

            I don’t see any reason Ozp should pretend to be regretful or give a fake apology when they did nothing wrong.

            OP doesn’t need kowtow to Bob, just move on.

              1. voyager1*

                But that this the thing, the OP said “I wouldn’t work for them again” them being Bob. Maybe in AAM comment land where everyone is a rockstar who does the work of three people that can be swept under the rug. But in the real world, people don’t forget when a subordinate says that to them. In the real world a lot of subordinates would get that wish by getting fired.
                I think addressing she said that helps for her and Bob to really have a fresh start and for her to be actually successful.
                We can agree to disagree though.

    7. Pam*

      Every now and then I see Bob. I don’t speak to him unless spoken to. When I do speak, it’s one word responses. I leave the room when he enters.

      Honestly, if you’re going to be in more contact with Bob- this needs to stop or it is going to be obvious to everyone. Be professionally cool and friendly in your interactions with him. You don’t have to respect him, but you do need to maintain basic politeness.

      1. CherryGirl*

        Agreed. Two years down the road this seems surprisingly childish. It’s like you feel the need to hang on to this grudge and make it clear to everyone around you.

      2. EventPlannerGal*

        Agreed. You’re doing this TWO YEARS after the fact? No wonder he keeps trying to apologise. Being cool towards someone is one thing, but getting up and leaving the room when they come in is something else entirely, and I’m sure it’s very obvious and awkward for everyone observing.

    8. juliebulie*

      By the way, I think you’re right in your belief that his “guilt” is more about wanting to see himself as a good manager, and needing that validation from you. That’s his problem.

      But you will have a problem of your own if don’t let it go.

    9. fposte*

      I’m not actually a big fan of forgiveness. I am, however, a big fan of making bad past things smaller in the landscape, and he’s making that hard. I like some of the scripts suggested for telling him to stop.

      Is there a possibility, though, that your manner is contributing? It sounds pretty cold and punitive, and if I were your current manager I’d consider it a problem. You don’t have to love Bob, but it seems like you’re giving him a lot of negative power right now, and I think that’s probably worse for you than it is for Bob.

      1. Ella P*

        Great point. If you become more indifferent, along with some of the language stated above, it may help diffuse Bob’s need to discuss.

    10. mananana*

      Perhaps a simple “Bob, your constant apologizing is making things worse, not better. Please drop this.”

      1. cmcinnyc*

        I’m a fan of this simplicity. Also agree with a point upthread that you will need to update your demeanor with Bob now that you’re becoming more senior. You can be easier around him without being friendly, warm, or pals. The easy is for YOU–you want people to see you unruffled and succeeding, Bob or no Bob.

      2. LilySparrow*

        Yup. Simple and to the point.

        If he quits being wierd and trying to demand absolution from you, you’ll be able to talk to him normally. You shouldn’t have to avoid him just to get throygh your day without an unpaid therapy session.

        Bob screwed up. He needs to put on his big-boy pants and deal with his sadfeels on his own time.

        You don’t have to smooth anything over or try to make anything right. He just needs to knock it off so you can have civil, productive work conversations.

    11. LGC*

      So, I’ll be honest: I got 2/3 of the way through this, and I was like, “Why has Bob built a penthouse in your head rent-free?” Because that’s what it seemed like – you had a really bad experience with him a while back, but you went your separate ways with…some damage done, but not something severe or permanent (you got taken off that project, but you kept your job and eventually got a big promotion). But you still have very strong feelings about that experience, to say the least.

      And then I saw you potentially have to work with him again. And it sounds like he’s still apologizing for his mistake whenever he sees you, years on. So, yeah, I get why you hate him right now.

      So, yeah. You get to be coolly polite to him, because that’s all that’s required. EddieSherbert gave what I thought was the best script – acknowledge his expression of guilt, but also state that you need him to move on from this. This happened two years ago! That’s a pretty long time! Much like Elsa in Frozen, he needs to let it go!

      I scanned the replies (28 at the time I started writing this), and I want to ask – how likely is it that you’d be working with him, and how closely? You said you might be in more contact with him, but that doesn’t sound like it’s definite. So hopefully it’s not an issue for you, but if it is, you can start with that and escalate from there, I think.

      Two more things (well, three more):

      1) Okay, so I want to revisit the opening paragraph of my comment – as a couple of people have pointed out, your feelings towards Bob are really negative, and it read to me that you’re angrier at Bob than you are at Jane (who was the person that actually bullied you). That’s a lot of emotion to have, and while I came down on assuming that your feelings are understandable…man, he might not have built a penthouse in your head rent-free, but he is certainly paying well below market rate on it. You don’t have to love the guy or forgive him ever, but right now your anger reads as an 8 or a 9/10 when it really needs to be closer to a 2 or a 3 on a day to day basis, in my opinion. (That said, this promotion is all new to you, and you’re allowed to AAM While Angry. I don’t advise it because jerks like me tend to assume that ANGRY!!!!11! is your baseline, but sometimes you just need to vent.)

      2) I’m just going to put this out there as a supervisor who struggles a bit with picking up subtle cues and desperately desires validation from his team – although I’ve been working on tamping down the latter and getting better at the former. (Why yes, I do have autism, why do you ask? I can’t speak for Bob, obviously.) He actually might not have picked up on the situation until it was laid out in front of him. Which doesn’t make his handling of it any better – or his over-apologizing any more acceptable. But he might genuinely be oblivious! I myself have missed subtle cues about my employees being bullied before, which I’m ashamed to admit and I still feel terrible about. (To my credit, I have not hectored the targeted employees with unwanted apologies.)

      For what it’s worth, I’m going to be slightly more generous to Bob, and say that…it sounds like he does want to improve. I don’t think you owe him anything (least of all your approval), but I’m hoping that he’s become more alert to situations like you and Jane in the future.

      2a) Again, for the record – I’m not saying that Bob handled this situation well at any point or that you need to forgive him and that you’re a terrible monster for not doing so. It can both be true that Bob made a reasonable mistake and Bob also made a mistake that hurt you a lot.

      3) Congrats on the promotion! And may it be Bob-free!

    12. Miles*

      So what’s your actual goal here, and are you acting in the best way to get to it? Neither you nor Bob can change anything that happened in the past, so put aside your anger and hurt for a moment because it won’t help you figure out how to get your goal here.

      Is your goal to no longer have to deal with Bob ever? Then turn down the promotion and get a new job. I’m guessing you don’t want to do that but that’s the only real way of no longer having any interaction with Bob.

      Is your goal to make Bob feel like crap to punish him? If so, I think you’re actually doing a pretty good job. He seems to feel terrible and be reminded of his failings with every interaction. He’ll definitely keep trying to apologize to you though, because if he could get you to forgive him he wouldn’t feel like crap anymore. And that may impact you at your job if other people start to notice or if it starts to impact your ability to work with him at that new promotion. Still, if that’s your priority, maybe add some backroom gossip.

      Is your goal to make Bob a better manager? From what you say, his failings are a core part of his character. No one but a skilled therapist is going to be able to change that, so that goal is unobtainable.

      Is your goal to work productively with Bob without him constantly bringing up the issues between you? If it is, you’re sabotaging yourself with your actions. By fleeing his presence and only responding with one word responses you’re not working productively, you’re closing the door to working productively, and you’re non-verbally bringing up the past between you two every time you see him. Of course he keeps talking about it, you remind him every single interaction you two have! So stop running away, stop visibly sulking, stop the cold treatment. You don’t have to be his friend, you don’t even have to be friendly, just act like a professional talking to another professional at work. Even if you don’t agree with me that that’s what’s going on, you’ve been doing this for two years and he keeps bringing it up. Obviously, what you’re doing right now isn’t working and isn’t going to work. Do something different if you want something different.

  15. AnonForNow*

    TLDR: coworker donated eggs- like from her ovaries- to a former employee and it almost turned into a giant mess.

    No advice needed, I just have to tell y’all this story. All of this was before 9am earlier this week.

    K and G were friends when G worked here and remained friends when she left (I don’t know G since she left before I started.) K has fertility issues and is doing IVF and G also does but idk what her issue is. K decided to donate some of her eggs they were harvesting to G, to be inseminated by their respective husbands. Eggs were harvested and inseminated yesterday and G called this morning to check on them. Nurse says “yes all the eggs were inseminated.” G freaks out thinking the nurse means all like all of the eggs rather than all of her portion of the eggs. Calls L (also current employee, known drama stirrer) crying, L tells K, K starts freaking out, L tells them both to sue the other depending on whose husband’s sperm was used. G calls K angrily. K is crying bc she doesn’t want her friend to sue her and is nervous that after all this time they’ll have used the wrong sperm. K calls, nurse tells her all the eggs were inseminated with her husband’s sperm. More confusion. Turns out when the nurse said “all” she meant all of their own separate portions bc she can’t discuss other patient’s procedures bc of HIPAA and didn’t realize the two patients were connected.

    1. Clorinda*

      It can only go downhill from here. If they both succeed, their children will be half-siblings and there’s no way either K or G will be able to get over that.

      2. GrumbleBunny*

        And if only one succeeds (and especially if it’s the recipient of the donated eggs) it’s going to be even worse.

      3. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        Also my first thought! What if only one of them has a successful cycle? There’s a reason people usually do this stuff as anonymously as possible!!

        1. LilySparrow*

          Yep. My brain went there, too.

          I mean, I don’t blane them for freaking out – it’s a high-stakes situation at the best of times, and the hormone/drug cocktail they put you on doesn’t help with emotional regulation (to put it mildly)

          But what a colossally bad idea from the outset.

    6. New Normal*

      Oh. My.
      I think you’re best plan here is to have an ever-ready supply of popcorn because there’s no way this doesn’t get more … interesting.

    8. A Poster Has No Name*

      Oy. Disclaimer, I’ve never done IVF or been on the serious reproductive assistance meds (though I’ve seen others go through it), but this sounds so much like hormones in action.

      I agree that it was probably a terrible idea for one to donate eggs to the other, what with their kids being half siblings and all, but this particular issue will likely blow over, particularly once they come down of the hormone cocktail needed for IVF. In the moment it can seem like a REALLY! BIG! DEAL! but G should come to her senses and realize it was her misunderstanding that cause it.

      L, however, there’s no excuse for. L needs a stern talking to about not making already emotionally-charged situations worse, or maybe judicious application of a clue-skillet.

    10. QCI*

      So it’s not a mess and K and G have the right sperm on their respective eggs, correct? That’s what I got from the last sentence or 2.
      Anyway, they can’t sue each other over the clinic making a mistake, unless there’s some really weird contract stuff going on between them, and then still it would be the clinic that made the mistake that didn’t happen.

      I would avoid ever telling L anything even slightly secretive or potential drama fuel.

      2. YetAnotherUsername*

        I agree. It isn’t a mess at all. It’s actually really good and happy news for both of them. I hope you have another happy update for us next week that they both have viable embryos to implant.

    11. Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Curtain*

      Sue? That’s a strange leap for either of them to make. Please tell me that no money has been exchanged — would that even be legal for K to sell her eggs? Also, I hope that they have had a lawyer draw up some sort of formal agreement so it’s documented. If they’re this crazy over the insemination stage, can you imagine if there ends up some sort of custody or child support issue years down the road?

      2. Cat*

        If you’re in the U.S., it’s legal to sell your eggs. And if you go through a fertility clinic, you can usually get contracts in place that ensure that parental rights are properly relinquished as the parties intend. So I don’t think it’s necessarily a disaster waiting to happen. It just sounds like a very highly emotional situation with two people in a very intense situation.

        That said, G is kind of silly – of course the nurse isn’t going to tell her about the other person’s eggs.

    12. Close Bracket*

      I really feel for both of them in this situation. IVF is nerve wracking, and I’m sure their emotions are running high. I wish them the best.

    13. AnonForNow*

      To clarify a little since I rushed this post (everyone posts so quickly!)

      This happened earlier this week so disregard the “this morning” and “yesterday” time markers. I C&P’d this from a message earlier about the situation.

      The suing suggestion from L was about suing for custody rights based on the paternity.

      I’m sure this will blow over soon, although it was still being discussed this morning and afternoon!

      We all pretty much agree to never involve L in anything as this is the most drama she’s ever caused between people- one of whom doesn’t even work here anymore!

      K and G do have some paperwork about the eggs, but they were not sold and I don’t know the details or legality of it.

      1. QCI*

        If there’s actual paperwork I would hope there’s something in there like “these eggs and resulting children are legally bond to (whoever birthed them), and (donor) shall not have any guardian or parental rights”. In legalise of course.
        Otherwise it could be like giving someone a car, and then asking for it back someday because you put the engine in it.

  16. Sunflower*

    I’ve been working in events/marketing for the past 6 years but am looking to make a move into sales/business development(maybe account management). I don’t know what level of jobs I should apply to since I’m not sure how my experience translates- esp for jobs that ask for X years sales experience. I don’t think I need to start entry-level but can I apply to jobs asking for 5 years experience?

    Any advice would be appreciated!

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Can you aim for the same ‘field’?
      For example, if you have done marketing for a type of product… let’s say kayaks, maybe you could look into jobs with outdoor retail stores/chains, touring companies, etc.

    2. LunaLena*

      I’d say go ahead and apply, and explain specifically how your experience translates to what they’re looking for. From there, it’s up to them to decide whether they agree with you that it’s relevant or not.

    3. SuperAnon*

      On your resume, maybe a line under your name — something like “Events Marketing Professional Moving Into Business Development” might help get the message across?

  17. Dr Useless*

    I had a job interview scheduled this week but got hit by a pretty bad cold and had to reschedule for next week, the head of HR told me this would set back their entire recruiting schedule and it’s making me feel extra anxious about the upcoming interview. Has anyone had positive experiences with rescheduled/postponed interviews, to calm my mind?

    1. Canonical23*

      I made a job offer once to someone who had to reschedule their interview. I’ve had to reschedule before and while I didn’t take the job, I did get an offer. As long as it’s not 10 minutes before the interview, the employer isn’t going to think anything of it, and if they did, you don’t want to work there anyways.

    2. Beth Jacobs*

      I got food poisoning the day before I interviewed for my current job. The interview was scheduled for 10, I started vomiting about 10 pm the night before. Around 3 am I realised it wasn’t going to stop and sent an email apologising. We rescheduled and I got the job. The ironic part is that I’ve been there a year and I’ve only taken one sick day – for pre-scheduled surgery. I’m normally a healthy person, but timing can suck.

      Life happens and this is far more common than you think. Organisations are used to rescheduling.

      1. Michelle*

        Gosh, this happened to my son! He got food poisoning, but managed to power through the interview*, but when he got went for pre-employment drug screening threw up at the screening facility. He got the job as well, and has not missed any days so far.

        *He ended up going to the doctor and got an anti-nausea shot and pills to help.

    3. Ella P*

      Because my company typically has a half day of interviews scheduled for candidates with a few different panels that involve groups of people, and I help with scheduling, let me say that we do have to reschedule a bit, or have candidates that need to adjust from time to time and I have never known it to influence the consideration of said candidates.

      Life happens. Best of luck!

    4. Fikly*

      I don’t know if this is still an option, but can you do a video interview? I had the flu when scheduled for my last interview for my current job, which was with a VP *cringes in memory* and I emailed them, apologized profusely, offered to meet over video, and then quickly apologized at the beginning of the interview for being low energy due to the flu, and got the job.

      They did offer to reschedule (props to them) but I have anxiety and was worried I’d lose my chance at the job.

      1. Dr Useless*

        I could hardly speak on the phone, so I didn’t suggest it. I was less worried about my ability to get to the interview and more about my ability to string coherent thoughts together and talk without coughing. Anyway, it’s been rescheduled now, the head of HR was even nice enough to tell me they’d confirm the date with the hiring manager and then let me know by email rather than by phone, in case I wanted to go back to bed.

        1. Sue*

          When you have your interview, shake hands and thank them for rescheduling and casually mention that you didn’t want to spread your germs.
          I had a nasty cold come on this week and believe me, nobody wanted to be around me. It just makes it you being considerate of them, not about messing up their schedule.
          Good luck!

    5. LadyTesla*

      Honestly, that reflects more on their HR head than you. If I was an HR person and I saw that you were proactive in changing times, and had your priorities of health and safety first, then I’d think you were doing the right thing. Yes, it’s annoying, but so is being sick!

    6. On Hold*

      If they ding you for this, you don’t want to work there anyway. Stuff happens when you’re applying, stuff happens when you’re an employee. If the company can’t be flexible now, they will likely not take good care of you later.

    7. Blue Eagle*

      I was hiring manager and the day of the interview there was flooding and the interviewee cancelled. HR told me to not reschedule as the interviewee’s resume didn’t seem that strong, but the interviewee’s recruiting agency said the interviewee really wanted the job. So I rescheduled the interview and the interviewee was the strongest of all the candidates and ended up being one of the best employees I ever hired.

    8. MsMaryMary*

      No, but I once did a day-long series of interviews* when I had a nasty head cold. I was not at my best, sneezed on a couple people, and did not get the job.

      *I was still in college and it was a group interview/event for a recent grad trainee program. I couldn’t have rescheduled if it had occurred to me to do so. I still should have bowed out.

    9. MonteCristo85*

      I’ve not rescheduled and been hired, but I’m a hiring manager, and it wouldn’t phase me in the least if someone needed to reschedule, even if it wasn’t for sickness (you don’t need to provide a reason IMO). You have a life outside of work, and if the prospective employer doesn’t get that, I’m not sure you’d want to work there. Honestly, I don’t want to meet with you if you are sick anyway, just on a selfish level. Plus, you won’t be at your best, and our interviews are grueling as it is (6-8 hours, meeting with 5-6 people, you need to be in fighting shape, lol).

  18. Dr. Doll*

    I am at a different campus for a one-day conference. Looking around at my fellow-conference goers, I see that we all schlepped dozens to hundreds of miles to do our email here instead of at home. So much for that sustainability commitment. >_<

    1. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      My division is doing that on Monday – bringing 300 people who usually work from home onsite for absolutely nothing (other than face time) that couldn’t be accomplished via webex, and completely removing all of them from doing actual productive work that day. Yeehaw. :P

      1. downdate*

        I had several days of that recently. I’m still mad about it. If you’re gonna make me fly out somewhere, it better be for a reason and not for something we could do through videoconferencing.

      2. KnowsWhereHerTowelIs*

        My company keeps doing that to me. They rented out a ballroom for 400 people so we could all “get to know each other” because nothing creates a bonding experience like being bored by people reading off of a powerpoint in real life. Bonus points, I’m a contractor so I’m hourly. I worked so much overtime on that trip I didn’t just get time and a half, I got double time. All while doing 0 hours of actual work.

        I’m part of a small tech team in a much bigger team that does customer facing work so, it was pretty clear by the end of the day who else was a programmer. By hour 3, we were all sitting in the back, on the floor, cross legged, leaning against the wall and looking at our email.

  19. Fishsticks*

    Any advice on under $50 (preferably less but willing to pay a bit more for good stuff) casual work pants that aren’t jeans? I hate wearing jeans but I’m having a hard time finding pants that aren’t dress pants to thread the needle of a casual office dress code. I love loose pants with elastic or drawstring waistbands but am having trouble finding good pairs of those as well.

    Thanks for any and all suggestions!

    1. MOAS*

      A few that I can think of:
      Old Navy
      Gap factory
      Express & Gap when they’re on sale
      Target
      If you’re plus size, Torrid has these soft but dressy pants, they’re called “cigarette pants” and have a tapered leg with a sash you can tie around the waist. I find them to be soft fabric and very comfortable and stylish.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Possibly not Target if you’re plus size. They remodeled my local store and cut that area down to almost nil. I used to get stuff there regularly but now I don’t even bother.

        1. sensitive topic*

          That sucks! Both of my Targets carry plus size, but there’s always more availability on the app/website.

        2. A Poster Has No Name*

          My store’s plus size section got bigger after a remodel, so YTargetMV in this regard. It used to be kind of combined with the maternity section, which sucked, but now it’s a very clear and distinct section with a better selection.

    2. Goldfinch*

      Dana Buchman pull-on pants from Kohls. Several cuts, comfy elastic flat waistband that isn’t dowdy, several colors, and currently on sale for under thirty bucks.

      2. BetsCounts*

        I forking LOVE the Gloria Vanderbilt line from Kohls. They come in a variety of colors and wear well.

    3. Hills to Die on*

      Beta brand! A little more BUT they are machine washable and feel like pajama pants. I absolutely detest and despise dress pants and I live in these. More comfy than jeans – literally!

      1. I See Real People*

        Yay! I’ve been wanting to hear from someone who has actually bought some of these! They look so comfy in the ads. How does the size fit, i.e. runs larger or smaller?

        1. JustaTech*

          I’m usually an 8 and the medium fits me great. I live in jeans, but the Dress Yoga Pants (with pockets) were amazing for my last conference. Though I did find my phone got a bit sweaty in my pocket from being right up against my leg. (The only sweaty thing about me, freezing to bits at my conference. Why are hotel conference ballrooms so dang cold?!)

          I’m long in the leg, and these were plenty long on me, so that might be an issue for shorter people.

        2. alex b.*

          I LOVE Betabrand (no affiliation, just a fan). I have the straight-leg work pants in several colors/patterns, and they are so comfy but look great. They are flattering even when you’re not feeling your best. I also have a dress that I adore from them (the “sweatshirt travel dress”). This brand is my go-to for work clothes.
          I’m a size 6-8 and medium has always been good in their clothes. My best friend thought what she ordered ran slightly small, so I’d order up rather than down if you’re unsure.

    4. Lora*

      Uniqlo! Not the leggings type pants, but they do get regular kind of pants in neutral colors (black, gray, tan, navy etc). EZY ankle length pants are $40.

    5. Dasein9*

      I just found some pants at Uniqlo that look like dress pants but are made of sweatpants material. The quality seems high, though they’re a bit thick for the current season. I haven’t worn them for any amount of time so can’t tell you how they hold up, but they’re $40/pair.

    6. Sunflower*

      H&M has some great paperbag pants and also cropped, flowy, gaucho like pants. They have different price points but I’ve found their ‘work’ stuff is better quality and a little pricier than the stuff not part of their professional collection. I got a great pair of cropped, flowy pants there on sale for $8(originally $35).

      1. Joielle*

        I got a pair of paperbag pants from H&M recently and I LOVE them! They’re so comfy. As a chubby pear-shaped not-teenager, I didn’t think there was much for me at H&M but I was actually pleasantly surprised at their workwear collection.

    7. TiffanyAching*

      I am personally a fan of the Old Navy Pixie pants. They come in a variety of lengths, fabrics, and prints, so you can do like floral or polka dot or mustard or forest green for a more casual vibe, or black/grey for more formal. They also have a bit of stretch. Standard button/zipper closure, but I find them pretty comfortable.

      1. No Tribble At All*

        And a more casual one, Old Navy Stevie! They’re pointe knit with a wide soft waistband (no “control top”) and are pull-on.

    8. bubba g*

      Lands End has some nice stuff, especially the Sport Knit line, which is available in all sizes, and you can get them in corduroy as well. They are super comfortable and are dressy enough for work. I wear them to work (I’m an educator) and they also fit with my country club’s dress code.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Pfft…pfft…pfft… the sound of walking in them used to drive me nuts when I was a teen. Oh the things we remember!

    9. Emi.*

      Lands’ End has chinos with an elastic-back waist that are frequently under $50 on sale (if they’re not usually — but never buy anything from LE full-price unless it’s really urgent).

    10. downdate*

      Dockers from zappos. They don’t last too long (I replace them every couple years) but they’re cheap and good.

    12. Wearing Many Hats*

      Buy used! I got a pair of Rag & Bone elastic waist skinny stretch pants that still look like dress pants and not leggings from TheRealReal for $40. Shipping is kind of expensive, but I just wait to buy until I have a number of items I like (I may have too many clothes). Thredup also has great options, but I find it harder to sift through their site.

    14. Muriel Heslop*

      So many great suggestions here. I would also add J Crew Factory and Loft. They regularly have great sales that bring their prices down substantially.

    15. TooTiredToThink*

      Are you in the US? If you are size 10 or larger; Torrid generally has some awesome clothes. You do have to wait for specials sometimes.

      1. voluptuousfire*

        +1 for Torrid. They can be pricey but in the decade-plus I’ve shopped there, I’ve never paid full price for anything. They have a wonderful Studio ponte knit business wear line. Torrid is the only place I will buy pants or jeans from since I know the fit and they also look fantastic on me.

    16. knitter*

      Thred Up. I just got great pairs of like new J. Crew and Boden pants that were like new. I think both brands have great selections of classy casual pants, but are generally way too pricey for me.

      1. Joielle*

        I love Thredup but I wish they would list a bit more information about the clothes. I bought a couple pairs of Gap pants for like $8 each thinking they were the same as a worn-out pair I wanted to replace, but they were a slightly different style and didn’t fit as well. Such a bummer, since I really like being able to try something on in a store and then buy the same thing used online for cheaper, but you don’t know exactly which cut you’re getting until it arrives!

    17. Type 2*

      I love Chico’s “Travellers” pants. Elastic waist – super comfy! They are maybe $70 but they often have sales. Good luck!

    19. M*

      Zara does a good line in what are effectively jogging trousers but in office-suitable fabric – the current ones they have will show up if you search their site for “elastic waist pants” (one variety) or “flowy pants” (other variety).

    20. Princess of Pure Reason*

      LL Bean has the Sunwashed Canvas Pants, which are super comfy. Drawstring waist, tan, olive green, and navy for colors.

    21. voluptuousfire*

      Target has super cute pants with the A New Day (or a similar name). They’re high waisted, stretchy and comfy as hell. They’re also 24.99. I wore them out for a friend’s birthday evening out and I had no issues.

    22. Yuan Zai*

      I get all my work slacks from Macy’s. Charter Club, JM, and Style & Co (all manufactured for Macy’s) all offer a variety of options in a variety of sizes. My pants are all comfortable and low-key enough to wear as casual pants while being totally appropriate for my business casual office and even look fine when I throw on a blouse and jacket to be a little more formal from time to time.

    23. LunaLena*

      Costco sometimes has some dressy-looking pants that are comfortable and inexpensive. I got some charcoal gray pointe pants from them for $10 that were pull-on and had fake pocket and crotch details.

      I would also tentatively recommend PoshMark if you’re okay with buying used, or even your local thrift store. I sometimes find brand new items with the tags still on at mine.

    24. Michelle*

      Belk has nice “business casual” clothes for work. They also usually have a sale going on or a coupon you can use. Today’s coupon is THEBIGSALE and has very few exclusions.

    25. AppleStan*

      Dress Barn. Their Secret Agent Pants are TO DIE FOR. They can be casual, dressy, out-after-work, or date pants, depending upon the top and/or jacket and shoes you pair with it. And they go on sale from time to time for $19.50 each (usually about $29.50 each). They come in Plus, Misses, and Petites.

    29. Wandering_beagle*

      I have a couple pairs of outdoorsy-type pants that I wear to work — I got them from REI Outlet.

    30. Coverage Associate*

      I am wearing Lands End sport knit corduroy pants. I got them on clearance for less than $10. I own 4 pairs.

      1. Petry Dish*

        Jones New York- Sales/Clearance
        Dillards- they have a great semi annual sale
        Costco- sometimes has some nice leggings that are thicker and more dressy

    31. JR*

      The Halogen brand at Nordstrom is great. I especially love the ponte “work leggings” I got there a couple of years ago. (Not really leggings, totally work appropriate.) I think they’re more like $70 full price, but Nordstrom has pretty good sales.

    33. CatMom*

      Everlane is my go-to for high-end casual clothing. $50 would be the bottom of the price range, but “the work pant” is exactly $50 (and very comfortable!) and the “easy chino” is $55. They also have lots of other really nice casual options in the $60-70 range. Their whole jam is high-end products from ethical factories, etc. More than half my work wardrobe is Everlane.

  20. ItsABirdItsAPlaneItsAnxietyMan*

    Just wanted to share that I’ve officially put my last day of work on the calendar and seeing that date in red already helped lessen my anxiety. Can’t wait to move on to the next chapter of my career!

  21. DaniCalifornia*

    Just venting, no advice needed. I’ve continued to apply for jobs and know I’ll find something else.

    Wednesday my recruiter told me I didn’t get the job I’ve spent the last 8 weeks talking with. 4 interviews, aptitude tests, personality tests, lots of emails and phone calls back and forth. Waiting patiently for 3 weeks to hear back while the executives decided how I could best support them as they continued to push back the date they would make a decision 2-3x a week. I was the only candidate as the company reached out to recruiter specifically for me. Was constantly being told it’s not “if” I get the job, but “when.” Long explanation of why they aren’t hiring but it’s best summed up as recruiter said the situation is a true “It’s not you, it’s me.” Since they still have their head barely above water without the support then they probably won’t hire someone until they are drowning or sinking. 

    I feel…I don’t know, confused? Why reach out about me, put me through all of that and then not take the time to determine what’s needed? They’ve known and been looking for 1.5 years for this support. Bummed and kind of upset that I felt like I was strung along. And that maybe the company isn’t so awesome and is more like my current company. My current extremely toxic job does this. Won’t hire extra team members or support until we are sunk at the bottom of the ocean. My supervisor refuses to take the time to teach me llama grooming even though I want to learn, have expressed the desire to learn, and the owner is even surprised when he asks questions and I can’t help him. She’s even gone as far as to lie about the owner not wanting me to do it but he’s disputed that. But when she’s on vacation I have to fill in for her. If she got hit by a bus everyone would be looking at me to do it. It’s very confusing, frustrating, and upsetting.

    I’m just so done. My job is terrible for my health and llama grooming season is coming up Jan – April and I am quitting before that if I don’t find a new job, and will temp. I really thought this new job would work out and I don’t know how to feel towards the company bc they have every right to not hire me, but I feel like I wasted a lot of time on their behalf encouraged by them. Normally if I just didn’t hear back after a few weeks I’d decide that I just didn’t get the job and go about my business. But the extra layer of recruiter and constant communication of “We love you, we want you, we’re working on what you’ll do and when you can start.” gave me too much hope.

    1. Joielle*

      Ugh, that sucks. It is SO frustrating when people don’t think through a position before starting to hire for it… like, what do they think they’re going to accomplish besides wasting a lot of peoples’ time?? I know it’s a gigantic disappointment, but in the long run you probably dodged a bullet. Like you said, it’s pretty strong evidence that the company is not as awesome as it seemed. Sending you good vibes as you continue the search!

      1. DaniCalifornia*

        Thank you for the kind words! I’m sure in a week or so I’ll be good as new. The amazing recruiter just emailed to say she has someone else interested so I’ve got that.

    2. Michelle*

      Much sympathy. Job hunting plus a toxic/terrible job can really suck the energy out of you. Positive thoughts and good wishes to you.

    3. LawBee*

      “I feel like I wasted a lot of time on their behalf encouraged by them”
      Oh, no no no no. You can’t waste THEIR time if they were the ones asking for aptitude tests, interviews, etc. This isn’t on you at all. (And honestly, it sounds like it’s a sinking ship, so this could be a blessing.)

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Exactly. I wouldn’t want to work for people who are this scattered and flighty anyway.

        I hope you find something great soon, DaniCalifornia.

    4. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      I understand you’re frustrated, but think of it as dodging a bullet. This is NOT how professional employers behave. I recently interviewed for a job they realized last minute they couldn’t budget for. I just thank my lucky stars that they figured this out BEFORE hiring me (so that I didn’t get hired and then laid off).

  22. Bad Janet*

    Anyone in here that made a drastic career change into programming? I’m looking into doing this and interested in what your stories are (Bonus points if you self-taught or bootcamped it)

      1. Bad Janet*

        Language- I’m starting with python b/c that’s where most of the programmers in my social circle are (or recommend). Area of interest with it will possibly be data analytics.

        But overall I’m real early in this process and just kinda looking at where people have gone with this sort of path.

    2. Aly_b*

      My husband did this (law student then city employee then programmer.) He did a computer science degree, but was able to do a shorter 3-year program since he had previous degrees. It’s been great – he got one of the high paying a-list tech jobs you read about and they pay him and feed him and stuff. The hours are a bit much, especially the first year or so as he was getting used to it. But he really enjoys it and it’s opened a lot of doors for the future. I don’t know what the chances are of getting that kind of job from just boot camp and self teaching – he’s into some pretty heavy comp sci stuff. One thing I would very much be aware of is not all tech jobs are created equal. Some of the crummy ones kinda draft off of the really good ones on people wanting to get into the sector, and expect a-list hours and effort without paying anywhere near a-list salaries (like, my husband looked at jobs offering 30k for tech work and one at more than 3x that coming out of school.) These are not your minor 10% difference in an industry kind of differences. Value your time accordingly.

      1. Clisby*

        Based on my experience, I’m thinking similar. Learning something about a programming language is fine, but it’s not the same as actually knowing how to be a programmer.

    3. Qwerty*

      Most bootcamps are not worth it and the market is saturated with bootcamp grads. They make grand promises, but the reality is that most don’t teach a good foundation of programming and function a lot like other for-profit colleges that are considered questionable. I won’t list all the issues here, but a lot of articles pop up with a quick Google search.

      Anyone can learn to code. Coding is easy. Engineering is hard. Focus on programs that acknowledge this, because those are the ones that are more likely to teach you the important stuff, like algorithms, optimization, and design patterns. Algorithms are not taught well in boot camps and websites, but are a huge part of the foundation of programming.

      Take a look at the requirements for degrees at engineering schools that are in your area or highly rated and final common courses besides the obvious programming ones to figure what auxiliary topics you need to learn. The reason for needing Data Structures knowledge is obvious, but people often skip learning the non-obvious discrete math (aka logic), which is a pain but ends up having an impact on how you approach future problems. The mindset is a big difference between a coder and a software engineer. There are a lot of sites out there that let you audit college style courses at an accelerated rate for these topics (Edx, Coursera, etc)

      When you finish with a project for a online class or for yourself, go back through it at the end and look for ways to improve it. Imagine future changes or features that might be added and check if your code would be easy to integrate the new features. If it’s not, rework it to be more flexible and maintainable. Next time you do a similar project, your mind will likely default to the improved version.

      For breaking into the field without a degree, you’ll likely need to show some example of what you can do. There a lot of recommendations out there for things like creating a demo site or writing an app, but if you want more real-world implications, then you could volunteer with a local charity or really any type of local group.

      Another good way to immerse yourself in the tech world is to get a job as a tester in quality assurance at a company that produces quality code. That way you can ask for view-only access to their code reviews to see how enterprise software works. You can practice coding by working on automating the test procedures or by writing small applications to help with the test process. A lot of tech companies have small continuous learning events like lunch-and-learns that you could sit in on and you end up learning a lot just by hanging out with coders at happy hours who can’t stop talking about work. The trick is here is to be transparent about your desire to transition to a dev during the hiring process – some companies won’t have opportunities, others will be thrilled at the possiblity of an automation tester, and in rare instances they might have a path to transition.

      1. Choosing a career path?*

        My child is thinking of taking a CODING bootcamp. I think your response is about programming bootcamps. Do you feel the same way about coding camps?

        1. Qwerty*

          I’m referring to coding bootcamps. There aren’t really programming bootcamps, and the few that exist tend to be just mislabeled. You simply can’t fit a full degree into such a short program. While the terms “programmer” and “coder” tend to be used interchangeably, it’s because software developers tend to be programmers and therefore know how to code (Similar to “a square is a rectangle but a rectangle is not a square”) Hiring managers are rarely looking for someone who just a coder – they want someone who can develop quality code without much hand holding.

          This answer is assuming you are talking about an adult going to a “professional” coding bootcamp. If this is in regards to a youth wanting to go to a summer camp that teaches coding for fun, they have about as much professional impact as any other topic-based summer camp. Children’s coding camps also tend to teach surface-level stuff, but it’s for kids so that’s expected and the point is more for them to get excited by tech so they choose to explore STEM fields in the future.

          1. Choosing a career path?*

            Thanks so much for your response. My adult child is looking at the possibility of coding bootcamps as a way of getting a foot into the door of professional, office-type jobs. They have a friend who did some kind of coding bootcamp and apparently got a reasonably high-paying job upon completion, so my kid thinks they might do the same.

            1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

              My city has a highly-ranked STEM/tech university that offers a highly regarded coding bootcamp for adults. I’ve met several friends-of-a-friend who did it and got decent jobs.

              It probably varies a lot by program; the STEM/tech school in my city is top 10 for computer science in its undergraduate major.

      2. Bad Janet*

        Thanks so much for taking the time to put all this info in a reply! I hadn’t yet had the logic/algorithms side spelled out to me, so I’ll start looking for those resources.

        I’ve seen similar sentiments about bootcamps elsewhere, so I’ve not been particularly sold on them (and I really don’t think I have the time or $ for that level of risk, either), but still have a small curiosity about them. I’ve signed up with a handful of meetup groups and have a variety of events to sit on in the next 2 months, covering lots of different areas (at least I live in a big enough city to have some tech diversity).

        And I have a friend who started in QA (science degree that wasn’t CompSci) and I’ve talked to him a lot about that track as an option. QA seems rather up my alley to begin with, so I’ll keep this in mind as I refine my targets.

    4. Cedrus Libani*

      I know someone who did the classic boot-camp route. She was a marketing person. She did the boot-camp, spent another few months building her portfolio, got a QA job at a small startup, then a couple years later was able to get a development job. It helped that her partner was a software developer who’d made a very successful exit (well into the range of never having to work again). There was homework help available; also, having money equals not having to take a survival job while learning, plus more flexibility to take an under-paid first job.

      I was a less dramatic case. I was a wet-lab biologist, but I’d taken some engineering and CS courses. Whenever data needed wrangling, robots needed fixing, or similar, people looked at me. Eventually I realized that not only was this stuff the fun part, there were jobs where I could do it full time (instead of doing it on the side and then falling behind on my real job), and those jobs paid a lot better. I’m now a bioinformatician.

      1. Bad Janet*

        I’m unfortunately stuck working my day job while I plug away at this in my nights and weekends. I at least have programming friends who can occasionally help. I’m currently finance-tangent in my day job and have figured out I like data-wrangling and process refining. So, that’s what’s leading me down this path.

        1. Cedrus Libani*

          If you have some access to the kind of work you want to do, you can use that as leverage to get a more advanced job that specializes in that work. Hard to argue about your ability to do the job if you’re already doing the job, even on a part-time and informal basis.

          There are jobs for “business analysts” who track various metrics, make dashboards and reports, and generally wrangle data to help the higher-ups make informed decisions. You’ll need to know the basics of scripting, databases, and statistics. Advanced Excel doesn’t hurt either. But you won’t be expected to write enterprise grade software, which as people have mentioned, is its own non-trivial skill set.

          FWIW, I don’t write real software either. We have proper software engineers who take our prototype code and make it fast and customer-proof. My job is to be the domain expert who knows what the code needs to do, and who can fiddle with my own “research-grade” code until it does what I want.

    5. LadyTesla*

      Hi, I work in software.

      Bootcamps honestly aren’t viewed as great, or comparable to a CS degree. If you’re looking to start in a pretty route tier 1 support or similar job, then it’s a really great option. If you’re looking to do hard core dev, know that you’re one in a million of people who took the 6 week bootcamp jump. Now, that doesn’t mean don’t do it. What I look for is more the Github fillness, and if they have certifications. Salesforce, Azure, AWS, those are really great for a resume! And Salesforce certs I’m pretty sure are cheap.

      So if you have that + those other items, you’ll stand out great.

      1. Bad Janet*

        Good to know about bootcamps. I know about Github & plan on having a portfolio there. I’ll start chasing down certs & hopefully find some that align with whatever track I settle on. Thanks!

    6. Meyla*

      My husband switched from being a middle school math teacher to a software developer. His 1 year anniversary at his new job is in November. I’m not sure if that’s “drastic” enough to be helpful, but he was incredibly motivated. He decided not to renew his teaching contract, spent that summer going through 4 or 5 giant books on Java, MEAN stack, software engineering principles, and more. He built two fully functional sample projects – a stand-alone Chess game and a web UI using Angular that was based on published APIs for a domain he’s interested in. I had encouraged him to do the sample projects so that he had a portfolio to show, but he ended up not really needing it. YMMV – all the jobs I consider applying to have a place to reference a portfolio/github, so I thought they may actually look at it but maybe it’s optional.

      Once the school year started back up and he’d spent 2 months full-time independent-studying, he started applying for everything entry-level he could find. Another two months went by where he was applying to at least a job per day (usually many more). He was starting to get discouraged when finally a small software contracting company reached out to him to take a relatively brief skills test. He did great, they hired him, he got a raise at 6 months and is leading his project team.

      I will say that my husband is incredibly smart and is fantastic at learning something without help or guidance. He also is very confident in his ability, so while I’m sure he was honest about his practical knowledge in his interview, he comes off capable and charismatic. If I were switching careers, I wouldn’t be able to do as well as him because I don’t learn on my own very well and I’ve heard bad things about the bootcamps.

      1. Bad Janet*

        Well, I lack charisma :D but at least am a decent self-learner, and I have a good circle of programmer friends to help me talk out what I’m learning.

    7. Tau*

      Me! And I have a second data point in my brother.

      In my case, I realised during my maths PhD that I didn’t want to go on in academia and software devleopment was my plan B. This was a bigger stretch than it may sound, because my PhD was in pure maths and there was very little computation involved in that – we did all our calculations with pen and paper. Applied mathematicians are more likely to at least work with automated algorithms or the like.

      I lucked out and found a company that specialised in hiring graduates from non-computer science STEM subjects, training them out, and then sending them out as consultants/contractors. There was a four-month training period that I guess was a little like a boot camp – but you were in full-time employment and being mentored by senior devs. They also really liked people with higher degrees – I think they’d found that people with Master’s and PhDs often made very good programmers.

      My brother had a BSc in Physics that he’d somewhat struggled to get and didn’t really know what he wanted to do with his life. He did an actual bootcamp; I’d been working as a developer for a few years by then and looked through a few descriptions to see what sounded reasonable (and kept an eye out for projects resembling actual enterprise software development, because IME that’s the hardest thing to learn but really, really vitally important once you’re trying to code professionally.) It was also several months, and worked out well for him – he found a job as a software developer not long after and has been happily employed as one since. I will note that I think for him a large part of it was normalising full-time work and getting help and support with the logistics of a job application – I suspect that as far as his CV went, he might have been able to land a programming job without the bootcamp.

      Although this stuff can be regionally dependent. My company was in the UK, and they seem to have a strong tradition of graduate schemes aimed at getting fresh grads into the workforce and training them up. I moved back to Germany, where my brother is, and I get the impression there’s less mentoring of junior people going on. I see a bunch of companies – my own included – that only seems to want to hire senior devs. What, are you expecting them to grow on trees?! (Disclaimer: this is a small sample size, I may be wrong about the tendencies.)

      1. Bad Janet*

        I minored in German and keep up my practice. Ain’t gonna lie, I have a small dream of being able to master these skills and use them to live over there :)

        1. Tau*

          That’s awesome! :) And yes, software developer is a great career to use to move to Germany. The tech industry is always looking for more people and many jobs, particularly of the start-up variety, are English-speaking. My colleagues are very international, and not just from the EU either. Developer salaries are lower than in the US, but I think it’s still a very good amount of money and you get the advantage of German holiday allotments, sick leave, health insurance, etc.

          In general, I adore being a software developer and am so glad I made the switch, and it’s a great career to be in right now, so I can only encourage you! I wish you all the best of luck – fingers crossed and thumbs pressed that it works out for you :)

    8. sara*

      Me! I was a biologist/zookeeper and started doing some basic web dev on the side. Started self-taught, realized I needed a kickstart and some help finding what to learn etc. So I did a bootcamp in front-end web dev (HTML, CSS, JS, React, WordPress). I got a full-time softwared dev job within 5 months of quitting my previous job (3 months of school, 2 months of temp/freelance/job searching) and I’ve been in my job now for 3 years.

      I’d say the bootcamp was a great route for me because it put me in a place to get connected in the local tech scene. The bootcamp is what helped me get my first job but on-going learning is what has helped me get promoted and will help me find my next job. Plus, the soft skills they taught were mostly really helpful, especially in figuring out how to explain my drastic career change and how my skills from the previous career are actually an advantage in tech.

      It depends, I think, on the team and company, but I don’t feel at all “less than” my teammates who all have CS degrees (there’s only 5 of them). They’ve taught me a tonne about CS principles (or pointed me in directions to teach myself) and I’ve got everyone else actually valuing and learning CSS and JavaScript.

    9. Clisby*

      Not sure what you mean by drastic. My first degree was in journalism, and I worked for newspapers for about 12 years. For the last three, I worked full-time at night as a copy editor while I went back to school part-time for a computer science degree.

      Journalism was how I first got interested in computer programming – not surprising, since the field was just getting into what computers could do. I took a couple of programming courses at a local community college, and then moved on to getting the college degree.

      I mean, it took 3 years – I already had a B.A., but had to complete all the computer science/math courses I hadn’t taken before.

      1. Bad Janet*

        My undergrad was journalism :) I SHOULD have realized then, when my favorite classes were the ones requiring website work. But alas, I forged ahead and didn’t even bother going into the industry. I don’t have the means to learn via college again, so I get to put all my research skills into learning a new field.

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          If you haven’t considered technical writing, take a look. Online help might be a perfect fit between trained writer and code-lover.

          1. Bad Janet*

            I’ve been try8ing to get into tech writing for years. Of all the variety of jobs I send out resumes for, that’s the one I never get interviews on. A lot of the tw positions in my area have hard-line requirements of knowledge about obscure softwares.

    10. Second career*

      I’m a career changer into software engineering. My previous career was in special education and then I went back to school and got a master’s degree in computer science. I know quite a few people who went the bootcamp or self taught route who have careers as developers but obviously those are the success stories and I know it’s harder to get a first job with a bootcamp background (once you have experience your second job should be easy to find regardless of education). I would look into some tech related email groups or online communities in your area and find some people who have gone through similar career transitions to get their advice on local programs and businesses open to bootcamp grads. Not all programs are created equal so get some real first hand experiences. Also keep in mind that the industry is White and Asian male dominated. If you’re a woman and especially if you’re a woman of color, you’re going to have a harder time. Start building your network as soon as possible so you can get the inside scoop on companies before you apply to them.

      1. Bad Janet*

        Thanks for the perspective! I will be getting out into my local meetup groups over the next couple of months for networking. Anticipating the glass ceiling problem, but at least a couple of the meetup groups seem to have a greater balance of women, which is nice.

    11. DataScientist*

      I did this. Started my boot camp just about a year ago. I did a data science boot camp, got hired into a job in March at about a 60% higher salary than what I made before. I spent about a year before that casually learning basic python on my own from various free online courses, and I had a stats background from college. There’s a lot of gloom out in the internet about bootcamps being repeated here, but everyone I graduated with ended up with a good job, so I dunno. It’s an incredibly fast growing field without enough qualified people to fill the jobs. We did have an amazing careers coach with decades-worth of connections in the field though, so that definitely helped. Many of us got interviews based on his introductions (obviously from there we had to prove ourselves, but it was a foot in the door. For the most part, cold applications basically got us nowhere, so keep in mind that networking is huge). But ask tough questions about job placement rates and career assistance. Also make sure you’re able to support yourself for a number of months after the bootcamps ends – with one or two exceptions it took us all 3 months or more to actually start new jobs.

      Also make sure you’re doing this because you’re really excited about programming and you enjoy it. If you’re only in it for a higher paycheck you’re going to struggle and be miserable – this stuff is hard.

      1. Bad Janet*

        Thanks so much for chiming in! I’m actually looking at this b/c I’m interested in it and need something more challenging (I’m stuck in low-level admin/clerical hell and I’m smarter than this). Some undergrad classes had basic web dev requirements I loved. My favorite grad class was data & stats…so this seems like a good direction for me. I’m starting with python right now, and looking into data tracks. I don’t think I’ll have the finances for a bootcamp, but if I do I’ll keep in mind the points you’ve brought up.

    12. I Heart JavaScript*

      I’m a bootcamp grad. I’m a former EA in Finance who hated it and needed more of a challenge, learned basics by myself (in downtime at work and evenings/weekends) before applying to a bootcamp and quitting my job.

      All told, I was out of work for ~5 months: 3 weeks pre-bootcamp to decompress and visit family, 3 months of bootcamp, 3 weeks of job search, 2 weeks of travel/visiting family before I started my new job.

      Some things to know:
      1. Not all bootcamps are created equal. Most are a rip-off. There are a few that are better than others, but even the hardest (most intensive curriculum and longest hours) will only give you as much as you put in. And even the most advanced bootcamp grad is still a very junior engineer. So do your research — talk to grads of the various programs and dive into actual placement rates. The general consensus from the grads I talked to in my area was “I wish I went to program X”, so that’s the program I picked.

      2. Your network going in is a bigger predictor of success (getting a job quickly) than your placement in your class. The fastest to get jobs in my cohort were already in tech or tech-adjacent before attending.

      3. CS grads will also attend these bootcamps. Coding isn’t taught by a lot of CS programs for undergrad, so while they know theory about how logic gates work or how memory is handled by the operating system, they may not be able to do FizzBuzz to save their lives. And believe it or not, the CS grads aren’t always the top of the cohorts.

      4. Some companies really love bootcamp grads. Not necessarily new grads (but then, they don’t love new grads from CS programs either), but bootcamp grads know a lot about the most modern web tools and can often hit the ground running with a lot of the standard web developer roles. You don’t need deep CS knowledge for most FE jobs. My company’s FE team has hired bootcamp people for 3 of the last 4 open jobs and has been extremely happy.

      5. One thing bootcamp grads (especially the career changers) have going for them is that their soft skills tend to be significantly more developed than new CS grads. Years of office work have taught us how to communicate with all sorts of stakeholders. Learning coding from a non-technical background means that we’re usually better at talking to our non-technical colleagues (like our Project Managers, Product Managers, Designers, etc.). These skills snagged me an offer of a promotion to Team Lead after just 1.5 years of professional experience over much more experienced colleagues.

      6. I know of 1 remote program that’s any good. That same program also has a part time offering. Any other part time or remote program is likely not worth the time you’ll put in. Run.

      7. Avoid the college extension bootcamps at all costs. They’re not actually run by the university. They’re run by a company called Trinity and the universities sell their name and branding for a cut of the profits. They’re terrible and in no way worth the money. Run.

      Sorry about the late response — I was too busy working on a new feature at my job to check the posts today until nearly midnight :)

      1. Bad Janet*

        Thanks so much for sharing your experience! If I end up boot camping, it will be after a lot of research. I’m definitely focusing first on learning & networking.

    13. KnowsWhereHerTowelIs*

      I have a BA in Psych and Art History. I wanted to be an art history professor or psych researcher and really didn’t expect to make this left turn. I have no formal CS training.

      Because of the needs of the psych lab I was working at, I went from being the Excel guru to being encouraged to learn basic programming so I could do the things that are just sliiiightly beyond Excel. I learned Python from codecedemy and some basic Ruby. The rest of my job was basically just clerical/admin so, the day I figured out how to do a demographics chart we needed done ASAP when Excel kept crashing was the most valued and appreciated I had ever been and they ended up making me co-author.

      After that I did a bootcamp, which was awkward and not ideal, I was one of 2 women and was the only math person who was there to get better at computering when everyone else was already a programmer who wanted to brush up on statistics. If nothing else, I learned how to create and document projects, such that they’re easy to show to people at any technical level. Having a background in art and psych really gave me a comparative leg up on that compared to the engineers.

      I did a bunch of not great middle level jobs that all had something to do with making sense out of data for non-technical people in wildly differing fields, slowly getting more languages and systems under my belt, and now I have the shiny Data Scientist title and people have largely stopped speaking over me in meetings. It’s been a weird journey.

  23. Yogurt pants*

    Update on George from 2 weeks ago–part vent, part asking for advice. I mentioned last week was quiet, but this week was….not so much? 3 incidents in one day, but it didn’t involve the grand-boss or company wide meetings, so OK I guess. Majority of our communication is via email/message/chatting. 

    1. A manager sent out an email with an instruction related to a new task that we have. George was confused. Neither person was wrong but that manager’s email was just “hey FYI, after we’ve implemented this I found this happening, so let’s do this.” It was something really easy to clear up. blamed us b/c they were confused, even though the processes had been discussed, established and written down prior. To my knowledge, they didn’t run to my grand boss like they would have before (but maybe they BCCd her, who knows).

    2. A second incident (same day) was about the ownership of a project (we have very clear set in stone rules about ownership on projects). They dumped it right back in my lap before they got clarification–the senior manager (not my direct boss but acting in for him while he’s out) weighed in (because they were looped in from the beginning) and only then did George take the project back. 

    3. In our group chat, one of hte other managers asked if she can “borrow” my team member, Edwin, for a small task and I said sure and mentioned that he will be on vacation. George was commenting on how Edwin didn’t block his calendar, his flight’s at night etc. I just said “Ok I’ll handle it.” I felt it was overstepping, which went back to how they flipped out the one time I overstepped but I’m expected to play nice. BUT I could be wrong on this b/c Edwin & G are good friends (they used to be peers before George was promoted). It annoyed me b/c he’s MY team member! I don’t butt in and go through George’s teams’ projects and calendars. I have no issue with George & Edwin talking as Edwin is a great employee. 

    Idk if this was BEC or another sign of dysfunction–and maybe I am blowing this out of proportion. If this was 3 weeks ago, these would have been very different conversations. What I hate the most though is that anytime George isn’t “right”, they run to the VP they work closely with and complain that we’re playing favorites and biased.

  24. Hills to Die on*

    I am 2 weeks into a government job and I am feeling guilty about how slow things are going. I am trying to keep myself busy with work-related tasks and trying to onboard more quickly, but it’s obvious that things just don’t move like that here.

    Has anyone else experienced going from private sector to public, and how do you floral with the transition? Is this normal?

    2. Policy Wonk*

      In my experience the first couple of weeks in any new job are slow because you haven’t been woven into the work of the office yet. I tell all new hires in my office that those first two weeks are the time to meet old friends for lunch, and I give them background materials to read during down time. And I note that in a month they will wonder why they ever thought they had time to do that. That’s what usually happens, though sometimes there is an issue to be resolved (usually computers not routing things correctly, sometimes someone who doesn’t want to give up their work). Not knowing what kind of job you have, I can’t tell you how quickly things will pick up, but this is normal at the beginning.

    3. CheeryO*

      I went from a consulting firm to state government almost five years ago, and the transition had me crawling out of my skin! It’s absolutely normal. Two weeks is nothing. We’ve had new employees who didn’t even have a computer after two weeks. We’ve had new employees spend MONTHS reading regulations because it takes so long to get up to speed on things. Just keep doing your best, and try to make peace with the slower pace.

      1. Middle Manager*

        It’s totally normal. I work in a state government policy office. So much of what we do is on an annual cycle, that it took a year for me to do everything once. Until I did and was fully up to speed, it was just very hard for me to be super useful, because I didn’t have the bigger picture. I have someone onboarding now and it will take them 6 month to a year to start to be able to do independent work.

        But I’ve found that the best employees use that time well. Read everything remotely related. Do webinars and online trainings. Once your up to speed it will probably nearly impossible to read a 400 page legislation on something related to your work, so now is a great time to do that.

    4. Miz Behaven*

      It takes more than two weeks to get the general feel of the flow of any workplace. People appreciate others being eager and proactive but don’t over do it and try to push yourself into things just yet. There may be good reasons for some of what you are seeing that you would not know since you just got there. Be patient, read the manuals, and inquire gently.

    5. Brownie*

      I went private tech startup to public and yeah, the transition took so much longer than private did. Heck, it was just over a year after I was hired that I finally got complete access to all the systems I was supposed to be supporting! The best thing you can do with all the time during the transition & onboarding is write up everything you’re being told and then go look up those topics on whatever wiki/documentation/internal website for your department/employer is for more details. Also, go look up resources, review any benefits/insurance information, and read any other work-related policies you can because you don’t want to find out that the onboarding documentation is out of date in regards to those things. Be patient, the change for me felt like a complete 180 from private and the waiting chafed so much, but it’s been very much worth the wait in the end.

    6. sometimeswhy*

      I went from a 24hr manufacturing plant to government. To keep myself from going completely stir crazy the first few years, I spent a lot of time digging allllll the way into the things that I was learning.

      If I needed to measure a cogwidget and was taught how to measure it, with what, and the specifications for measuring it I would do as instructed then spend the downtime answering my own overly detailed questions. What does the regulation say about cogwidgets? What if it’s a cogwidget of a different material? What about this other related cogwidget thing that we DON’T do but might someday? Does the tool I’m using need to be calibrated? What’s the tolerance on that? Is there a user manual for that tool? What happens if I drop a cogwidget? Where is all this documented? What’s our record retention policy? Why do we have to keep that sort of thing for seven years but that other similar sort of thing for five?

      I didn’t badger my (extremely overburdened trainer) but dug around our SOPs/guidance/how-tos then dug around THEIR reference documents then when all that was exhausted dug around HR and finance stuff so five years later, the first time I had to travel for work, I knew where to find the travel request form AND how to fill it out and also had an idea how to start doing that other thing with cogwidgets.

    7. Quiznakit*

      This is super, super normal. If you’ve got down time, try seeing if there are elearning courses to fill the time or procedures you can familiarize yourself with. That’s what got me through the slow period at the start.

    8. Garland Not Andrews*

      I moved from Private to public and it can take weeks to get everything in place to be actually productive. All your equipment, all you various accesses. It is crazy how long.

      Hang in there, it will get better!

    9. Saraphina*

      Two months into my new fed job and I totally get this! I just read tons of stuff, took notes, even researched the part of the government, took online law courses, anything to fill the time. It’s normal to feel anxious that you aren’t doing anything tangible, but you slowly get used to it. Checking base with your supervisor can help ease that too!

    10. Oh No She Di'int*

      This is not a knock on you or anyone else in this thread, but dear God, the stories here are making me wonder why on God’s green earth I EVER pay taxes!!

      1. Paris-Berlin-Seoul Express*

        You pay taxes so that you have roads to drive on, planes that fly and land, passports, id cards and drivers licenses issued, federal aid and emergency responders, fire and police departments. So you have people processing social security claims, small business loans, section 8 and food stamps. You pay taxes so children get educated. And many more things. Just because government inprocessing is somewhat cumbersome and slow due to all the bureaucracy it entails, doesn’t mean that taxpayers don’t get a service. And by the way, I worked in both private industry and government jobs and found overall not much difference when working for a large corporation. Only there, any associated costs are passed on to the consumer as part of the price you pay for goods or services.

        1. Oh No She Di'int*

          There are many ways to do government as many nations around the world exemplify. The stories here do not exemplify the optimal ways.

    11. Hamburke*

      I went from college to (seasonal temp to) fed gov job and was bored out of my mind! The pace was ridiculously slow.

      More recently, my husband went from private accounting firm mid-busy season to state gov in a slower city than we lived (he’s IT and this move was his switch from 2nd tier support to infosec). He spent 6 months feeling like he was about to be fired bc of how little he accomplished but he got great reviews and praised for quick work.

    12. Consultant Catie*

      This is so so normal. My husband is a fed and took a temporary assignment with another federal agency — it took him 9 weeks to even get a log-in for his computer. And even then, he only got it because he accidentally emailed the Deputy Director of the entire agency.

      I would just re-set your expectations much lower, and spend time getting to know your colleagues. Relationships with new people never hurt.

  25. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It's SuperAnon*

    I moved to a new role back in March, and just had my first major screw up. Like, a sub assembly for my product is going to be a month late and we found out the week we were supposed to get them in. And it delays testing. Unfortunately, our supplier/partner company has apparently been snorkeling behind us for months, and used this as an opportunity to say “actually, it’s going to be 3 months. And it’s all SuperAnon’s team’s fault”. Our company knows they’re using this as an excuse because yes we did have delays along the way, but we didn’t have any indication that our delays were going to cause such an issue until now.

    I’m lucky that my management has been so good about this and aren’t making me a scapegoat in any way. I immediately went to my project manager (dotted line) and told him I realized I had made a mistake and hadn’t been following the subassemblies as I should’ve, and we had a good talk about what went wrong, what should happen in the future, and how we’re going to handle upcoming team turnover so we don’t lose this lesson. I had raised some concerns early on about the relative experience on in our team (college hire project engineers, 1 year experience design engineer, and I have 8 years of engineering experience but this is my first team lead role) and it looks like that did end up playing a big role in all of this. It sounds like I’m going to be set up with a mentor going forward to help development the management portion of being a team lead.

    Not the best week of my career, that’s for sure. Any suggestions on how to own my own failure without letting our partner company pile on?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      I think you’ve done it – RCA + corrective actions + baking those into the team knowledge base. Anytime the partner company mentions it, say, ‘We understand our piece of the problem, and have taken actions to fix it for the future. Now, what can we do to address the impact today?” Stay very ‘solution focused’.

    2. Emilitron*

      A really program-management type response: When you started the project you laid out risks. Some of them are technical and some of them are personnel-based. With a new team, something was going to happen – if it hadn’t been you, it would have been somebody else. Sounds like you knew this was a risk; ideally you allowed margin for it. Your PM job now is just to make sure this week’s event is the only thing on the project that will be eating into that margin.

      And yes you own the failure. The thing happened, it happened because of you. Here’s how you prepared for it (margin), here’s the impact, here’s how you fixed it, here’s how you’ll prevent it *and similar things* in future.

  26. Librarian of SHIELD*

    Has anybody else noticed a pattern of staff recognition that leaves out reliable, consistently good employees? Most of the employee recognition I’ve seen lately is either “Celeste did the thing that was always her job, but that she rarely gets around to doing! Hooray!” or “Herbert managed to stop the building from exploding last week!” with hardly anything in between.

    Why is that? Why don’t we stand up in staff meetings and say things like “Philomena is always on time” or “Matthew always gets his projects turned in before the deadline” with those same levels of celebration?

    1. Hills to Die on*

      Yes, and I hate that. Political and/or trying to motivate the office grump/slacker instead of just managing them.

    2. AndersonDarling*

      Sometimes management gives public recognition to employees that crave it. They know that awards don’t motivate the top performers, so they only give awards where it will make an impact.

    3. EddieSherbert*

      Yup. Even for big or important fixes – it’s all about “Joe who put out the fire that grew so big it disrupted everyone’s day”… and then Jack doesn’t get any recognition for fixing the gas leak before it did anything besides make a small whooshing noise.

    4. Kramerica Industries*

      Yes, this is the worst. “Congrats to Joan for doing her job as expected! We usually don’t get much out of her”. Meanwhile, good performers are held to a higher standard and are less likely to be recognized.

    5. fposte*

      In my workplace a lot of it depends on who the employees’ work is visible to (which may mean who their manager is but isn’t limited to that). That being said, we hardly ever give public praise for “Celeste sucks slightly less than she used to!” and I would hate a workplace where people are being publicly celebrated for coming in on time. That’s getting into participation trophy territory to me.

    6. Qwerty*

      I think its a visibility thing. Herbert did a big flashy thing! Celeste surprised us! When people are doing consistent good work, you are expecting them to do consistent good work, therefore they are meeting expectations and no longer exceeding them.

      It applies to most aspects of our life – think of how much praise so many dads get for doing basic parenting tasks that no one praises moms for doing. Or that household appliance that you don’t realize how much you need/use until it breaks.

      I really sympathize! I used to work on a team where doing our job well meant no one saw any impact from our team. The slightest mistake could cause huge issues for the company, but the better we performed, the more invisible it made it us. It took a lot to convince management that they needed to acknowledge that we were useful because people started to wonder why the team existed.

    7. Mazzy*

      I had this two jobs ago when excel skills were becoming generally higher in the workforce and people wanted training. One favorite/ social employee did an hour long training. He became employee of the month. Sorry, someone who managed a difficult customer for the entire month deserves much more recognition than a token-gesture training.

    8. CupcakeCounter*

      The reliable, consistent employees don’t make noise. They rarely complain or make a hassle out of coverage or new duties…they just work out how to get it done with efficiency and excellence. Plus being on time is expected. Its the things that are “different” that draw attention.
      Celeste probably whined and whined about said task and many people probably noticed that it all of a sudden went from not done to done and Ta Da! ITS A BIG DEAL!

      Herbert really should be recognized for stopping building explosions though.

    9. Frustrated Limousine Driver*

      My pet peeve is when a manager is complimented for “stepping it up” and taking on a greater workload because of special project/launch/covering open positions and given recognition/awards – WHILE THE ADMIN gets nothing. Not even a nod. Yes, manager had to go to 10 more meetings this week — but admin had to schedule 10 more meetings this week, find 10 more meeting rooms, etc., route 10 times the mail, reports, whatever.
      When you increase someone’s workload, you should thank them. To only thank one of them is to give the unspoken message that “hey your job is not considered difficult enough that extra work is seen as a burden, it’s just part of your role and probably has no impact or adds any strain to you workload, and you certainly don’t need thanks for doing your job”

      1. Avacado Oil Magnate*

        Related pet peeve – at my company, managers nominate each other for awards all the time. But admins cannot nominate each other, so they have to hope the managers notice them. And the managers tend to nominate each other partly because it helps them move up and ahead, its a recognition of leadership, and the admins are not considered to be leaders, so no leadership awards for them.

        1. Qwerty*

          What??? The policy I have always seen is that manager nominate people on their team. Rare exceptions for if a member of someone else’s team was a huge help (aka Jane from the Llama Grooming team was acknowledged by the manager of the Alpaca Grooming team because they needed her expertise on a new initiative) but you always nominate someone that was a lower rank. If I wanted another manager to get special recognition I think I’d have to reach out to either their boss or mine to recommend that someone higher up make the nomination.

          1. Avacado Oil Magnate*

            The company allows anyone at any level to nominate anyone at any level. But it works out that the admins tend to do work that support their teams. So for admins it is never a lateral nomination, whereas for managers it can be.

    10. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      And this is why workplaces where top performers leave after 2 years and mediocre employees stay until they retire exist.

    11. Hope*

      At my place of work, it’s all about visibility, because everything depends on being nominated by other employees. If you have a job where you interact with a lot of people, you’re much, MUCH more likely to get recognition. If you don’t, no matter how good you are, you’re pretty much never going to get any of the employee awards.

      It can be really disheartening. It has definitely made me question going out of my way to do extra, because after a few years of trying that route and getting zero recognition for it while seeing others who are more visible get it just for doing the jobs they’re supposed to do, why bother?

      That said, I wouldn’t want an award for always being on time or whatever, since that’s something you should already be doing as a basic part of your job.

      1. Avacado Oil Magnate*

        Also there’s that declining return thing – if you are always exceeding expectations, then the expectations will change so that your exemplary behavior becomes the expected norm for you. “That’s just Jane!”
        While the slacker who goes just a tiny bit above the norm is seen as really making a huge effort.

      2. All out of bubblegum*

        And what is considered ‘visible’ work varies too. The people who organize the company blood drive – not visible. The people who organize the Thanksgiving food drive – not visible. The people who run the ‘stuff the bus’ back to school initiative – not visible. The people who participated in a walk a thon – visible. What was the difference? The walk a thon participants were all managers who walked . Everything else was staffed by administrative assistants, every day 1-3 for a week.

    12. Parenthetically*

      Not a work context but a school context — we noticed this with students as well, and created a couple of student recognition categories to focus on kids who just kept plugging away even if they weren’t getting awesome grades all the time.

      2. ECHM*

        Yeah … it always made me sad as an elementary student to not get the student of the month awards, since I was always one of the reliably good kids … Thanks for noticing this dynamic!

    13. Spargle*

      Thomas consistently meets the minimum expected requirements for his job! PARTY!

      No, thanks. I’d rather have a raise than be publicly praised for being at the office on time every day – I’d actually be offended by that.

    14. Squeeble*

      I know what you mean, but I used to get that kind of recognition for everyday things at a prior job and it got old pretty fast. One-on-one is nice (“thanks for always keeping my calendar so organized, it really helps!”), but in a group meeting I don’t know if I want to be singled out for that because it can feel like…well, sure, of course I’m doing my job.

    15. ...*

      Hmm, at my company I would say it is more likely the consistent person to be rewarded and our main “award” that’s given out each month is done by peer or manager nomination. I like this way because you know you had a voice in getting them recognized!

    16. RobotWithHumanHair*

      And on the other side of the coin, if one of those reliable, consistently good employees happens to do something wrong? Time to put them on blast! Frustrating.

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        YES. I had a coworker at a past job who would screw things up all the time and it was always “well, that’s just Eugene.” But the minute a consistent performer screws up, it’s a big freaking deal and it must be talked about immediately.

    18. LGC*

      Yeah – that’s an EASY trap to fall into. If someone is a rockstar like Herbert, you notice. If a poor performer makes marginal improvements like Celeste, you rush to praise them so they continue improving. Philomena and Matthew get left out in the cold because their reliability isn’t as attention grabbing.

      But also, I think people stand out in their own ways. I have a couple of Philomenas. They’re great, precisely because a lot of my other employees are flighty. The Matthews on my team are appreciated because I don’t have to worry about their work, unlike the Celestes. (I can litigate why I have Celestes, but I’d rather not.) So I try to let them know that – because I think that in the end, everyone is a mix of all four employees. You have your talents like Herbert, your areas of improvement like Celeste, your soft skills like Philomena, and your core competencies like Matthew.

    19. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      YES.
      Last year, we added 2 new roles to our team that basically outsourced the more administrative aspects of the analyst roles. (So think Llama Coordinators in addition to Llama Analysts.) Later that year, my company started a thing where you can recognize certain employees each month for accomplishments at the team meetings. Within 6 months, the people hired into the roles were given heaps of praises for successfully completing projects, when in reality, completing projects is their actual job. Also, none of the analysts ever got praised for simply completing projects when it was part of their job. *rolls eyes* (FTR, the new employees are good, but so is, like everyone else.)

  27. She's One Crazy Diamond*

    I’ve been helping cover our very busy reception since one of our main receptionists quit. We hired a new receptionist, Lucinda, and unfortunately her start date coincided with the other main receptionist, Jane, taking a pre-planned vacation, so I am training Lucinda. It’s becoming very clear that Lucinda has absolutely no computer skills to speak of, and we do everything in Outlook and SharePoint. I already was not the best person to train her since I’m not a receptionist and just do backup, but I agreed because I assumed that surely they screened for basic computer skills in the interview and I’d just need to train her on things specific to our office. I am a very tech savvy person and don’t have the patience to teach someone how to use a computer and I want to pull my hair out. Lucinda is also very miserable. I feel sorry for Jane when she gets back. The good news is I am going on vacation next week, so it won’t be my problem, thank goodness.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Nope. No one else knows how to do the job well enough to train her. And yes, I’m super aware that this is a huge problem, and I’m trying to develop an extensive training plan and SOP to mitigate this kind of situation in the future.

        1. downdate*

          How self-started is she? If she’s willing to put in the work and willing to learn, and google basic problems, this might not be too painful. A transition but learning basic e-mail and SharePoint is often a case of “read the buttons, click the button to do what you want to do”.

          I’ve had both kinds of users. I highly prefer the “don’t know much about computers, but will write down all instructions and google things” folks much much much above the “know somewhat about computers but don’t bother learning so every single time they need to find a file, they ask me where it is”. One of them is respectful of my time. The other one thinks I exist only to hold their hands.

          1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

            She’s unfortunately definitely the second type. Apparently she has been taking classes but I don’t think she’s retained anything.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        I could handle her not being proficient at SharePoint, but her not being able to use Outlook even is driving me up the wall. Not even the more high level functions, she has issues with email and knowing when she has a meeting scheduled.

      2. Hello gorgeous!*

        Last week one of the departments decided that they would no longer be responsible for the collection and reporting of certain data, that the project owners would instead provide the data directly to global. They didn’t discuss the change with the project owners, just asssumed it would be no problem to get the information. , The project owners were all sent an email for a Skype meeting where they were shown a brief PowerPoint on how to find and. update the data sheet on sharepoint. This was about 80 people, none who are familiar with sharepoint.
        The training turned feral, and the sound of people angrily hanging up was a 3 minute popcorn effect.

    3. Art3mis*

      In training for my current job I sat next to someone that was like this. I have no idea how she was successful in her previous role at the same company because basic computer skills are pretty much a requirement for an office support role at an insurance company. She was super nice and I felt bad for her, but I don’t know how to train someone to use a PC when they don’t retain anything or take notes.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        Yup. I can’t believe they hired her without asking about that. I wasn’t on the panel, but there were 4 people and HR she somehow got past.

        1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

          Our supervisor keeps saying that I need to be patient because she’s older and new, but I work with a 65 year old woman who is a wizard with Excel and my 90 year old great-grandmother has a Facebook, so sorry but I don’t think age should matter.

          1. downdate*

            I don’t think age is a factor in this. I’ve had users of all ages. The worst ones were in their 40s and their 20s. I had some great users in their 60s. I think how much they actually want to learn matters a lot; people know their own learning styles and what works for them, and in this case, their paycheck depends on it. So, do they learn it, or do they just rely on other people to do their jobs?

            1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

              I’m 26 and while I definitely get asked to help a lot of colleagues with technical issues, but usually it’s because they have a formatting issue with Word or don’t know how to make a pivot table, and I’m fine with helping because they generally know how to use a computer and those aren’t basic skills that should’ve been required for their jobs. I am just floored. I know we were desperate, but really?!

              1. Camellia*

                You have my sympathies. My company once hired an experienced (20 years) systems analyst and gave him to me to get him up to speed. When we got him logged in to his computer I said, “Now open your browser.” And he said, “I don’t know what that means.” He didn’t last long.

            2. LilySparrow*

              I think it’s slightly more common to see lack of computer skills in folks 50+, because if they were at a job for a long time, they may have relied on seniority or accrued goodwill to avoid change. Or if they returned to the work force as empty-nesters, they may not have kept up to date.

              I think the inherent lack of curiosity and willingness to try things is the same at all ages. It’s just a lot harder for younger workers to get away with it.

          2. SuperAnon*

            I have to say, your supervisor should not be using ageist language like that. Maybe your supervisor should be TRAINING THE UNQUALIFIED PERSON SHE HIRED instead.

            1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

              She doesn’t know how to work the front desk. The other day I was by myself back here and she came over to ask me something and two lines rang at the same time so I could only answer one and she just stood there because she “doesn’t understand how the phones work”.

              1. SuperAnon*

                Then she’s not qualified. And she’s not qualified because she hasn’t got the right experience. Not because she’s “older.”

                1. SuperAnon*

                  Maybe I misunderstood your comment, because upthread you talk about knowing people over 65 who are technically minded.

                  Bottom line, your hiring team made a terrible hire of a person w/o the qualifications to do their job.

                2. She's One Crazy Diamond*

                  That comment was about my supervisor, not Lucinda. My supervisor doesn’t know how to work the front desk.

          3. Autumnheart*

            I totally agree, especially as the workforce ages. It was one thing for computer skills to be a specialized skill 25 years ago, but the computer-savvy 25-year-olds from those days are now 50. Outlook has been a thing for nigh on a generation. These skills are a baseline expectation now.

      2. Joielle*

        This reminds me of the last time I signed up to be a pollworker in my city. We had just started using electronic pollbooks (basically the voter rolls on tablets rather than paper binders) and I was assigned to an advanced training for people who would be “specialists” in the software. You might assume that these people had been screened for the most basic familiarity with tablets before being assigned to the advanced training, but NOPE, absolutely not. We spent at least half of the hour-long training repeatedly teaching a couple of people the concept of drop-down menus and the fact that you have to click a button to get the keyboard for numbers and symbols. We didn’t even cover all the actual features of the pollbook software. Very nice people, but like you said, I wanted to tear my hair out.

        1. Ethyl*

          I am a pollworker and yeah, I don’t know why exactly but it seems like about 80% of the people volunteering just have no ability to retain anything from the multiple training sessions we do each year. It’s weird. And now we have the tablets too and people are freaking out ::facepalm::

    4. Rex*

      If you haven’t already, you need to flag this for Lucinda’s supervisor right now — it’s possible they have no idea about the computer skills and that might be a dealbreaker.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        I did. We have the same supervisor, which is how I got stuck covering. She said that I need to be patient with her because she’s older and has been out of the workforce for a while, and that she will arrange for paid training for Lucinda. However, since apparently Lucinda has been taking classes and she hasn’t seemed to retain any information, I’m pretty sure it will be a waste of money for us.

        1. QCI*

          This isn’t the 90’s anymore, age shouldn’t have anything to do with a persons computer skills at this point.

          1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

            That’s what I’ve been saying!!!! I know she’s been out of the workforce for a while, but unless it’s been 20+ years (which I doubt) she has no excuse. The thing that really baffles me is why require applicants to apply online, so how did she manage to do that? I wonder if someone helped her.

            1. Kat in VA*

              I was out of the workforce 20 years when I rejoined it last year. Using Google got me up to speed right quick.

  28. Fortitude Jones*

    I’m so very happy today – I just received word this morning from grandboss that I’ll now be reporting directly to my dotted line manager. This is fantastic news because a) I don’t like my current direct manager (I’ve talked about her here before and how she’s petty, territorial, and just an all around pain in the ass to work with); b) my dotted line manager is super easy to work with, receptive to any and all feedback, and doesn’t feel the need to always assert his authority all over the place the way my current manager does; and c) he’s the CEO’s son, so he has the kind of institutional knowledge that no one else in this company has, which comes in very handy when I need to know who to escalate things to. He’s also being groomed to one day take over for his father (that’s a long way off, though, as his dad isn’t yet at retirement age), so having the opportunity to work with him now and impress him with my work ethic and abilities can help me later if/when I’m ready to move up in the company myself.

    More importantly, and I’ve said this in the open thread before – it didn’t make sense for me to be reporting to who I was reporting to anyway. She had very little to do with my day-to-day work and didn’t quite know or understand everything I do, so it made more sense for me to report to someone else. I also spoke about how I was going to try to nudge grandboss into changing the reporting structure (some of you here said that would probably be a bad move since my current boss is petty) – well, now I didn’t have to do that behind the scenes influencing because he and my dotted line manager already came to that same conclusion! I love how in synch I am with those two – whatever I end up thinking/wanting, they do too. It’s awesome.

    I’m super pumped and can’t wait to see how this team grows. There will be a team name change at some point according to former dotted line manager/now new direct manager, so my next step is to try to get a title change.

    Here’s to hoping the rest of you have as good a Friday as I am thus far!

    1. new kid*

      Congrats!!

      I wish that were me, tbh. My direct manager isn’t terrible but she’s in a different office and has no visibility to my project so then I feel like she tries to overcompensate, and like you mentioned about your previous manager it just doesn’t make that much sense for me to report to her since she’s not involved in my day to day (nor should she be!). My dotted line manager would be a much better fit.

      1. Fortitude Jones*

        Aw, I hope you too can get that situation straightened out so you can start reporting directly to your dotted line manager. Is your grandboss pretty reasonable and open to suggestions? If so, I would broach this subject with him or her as delicately as possible to see if changes can be made.

        1. new kid*

          It’s a slightly different situation in my case where I’m embedded in a project team (permanently though, not a short-term project) but technically report up through the part of our org with all the other folks who do the same type of work as me (think marketing or design, for example). So my direct boss, grandboss, etc are all in another office in another city, whereas I sit right next to and work day to day with the folks on my project team, though I’m the only person on the team who does my type of job.

          I think my dotted line grandboss might be open to changing the reporting structure (especially since my position is funded through her project), but I’ve only been here for 4 months, so I feel like I need to give it more time before I try to broach a change with anyone.

          1. Fortitude Jones*

            Ah, I see. Well, I’ve only been in my role four months, and I got my change – but you’re right. I didn’t really broach the topic (grandboss initiated it), so it may not be appropriate to say anything yet. Maybe try at the six month mark and talk about how you believe the move would make more sense as you don’t really do what the rest of the project team does and, since you’re funded through her project, you think having closer contact with her would be to the company’s benefit.

  29. JB (not in Houston)*

    Has anyone else read today’s work-related Captain Awkward post? I’ll put the link in a reply. Although it’s not a workplace-focused advice blog, I thought she offered good advice.

    I would quote the most relevant parts of the question here, but I never seem to have luck with block quoting in html and don’t want to just paste a wall of text. But if anyone is interested, the question title is, ““My Boss Is Overly Enthusiastic About My Need To Pump Breastmilk At Work.”

    1. TiffanyAching*

      Yes! I really enjoyed how CA pointed out that in academia, you often have to try to parse out whether the weirdness is malicious, targeted oddity, or typical, “yeah Nobby is just like that, you get used to it,” oddity.

      That’s added on to the fact that, as CA and Alison have said before, academia/higher ed is just extra weird in general and often plays by its own rules

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yeah, this question really reinforced that! Although honestly based on questions Alison has had here before, I could see this happening outside of academia as well, unfortunately.

    3. Jules the 3rd*

      Shoulders -> ears, big time. The staring at ‘pumping boobies’ was super extra weird, and made me wonder about fetishes. But I was not going to open that can of worms there, because ‘why’ doesn’t really matter, the solution paths are the same.

      1. valentine*

        pumping boobies
        It’s “exposed boobies” and I kinda want the LW to give her a picture of the birds (US, not UK. I think she stared because she wasn’t expecting a bra to thwart her.

    6. fposte*

      Yup, read that. I had some sympathy for the deeply inappropriate overenthusiastic comment, because sometimes people just cram a foot vigorously into their mouth, but the followup of shoehorning her way into the locked de facto pumping room was madness. I join others in suspecting the department head is considering overinvolvement as a way to show support. Some people really suck at the kind of support that means leaving others the hell alone.

      1. JB (not in Houston)*

        Yeah, that’s where I was.

        I could totally see myself accidentally saying something like that and kicking myself as the words even as the words were coming out of my mouth, but I would have offered her the office by herself and would never have done the creepy follow up.

    7. Joielle*

      Yes! All I could think was – if you find yourself saying the word “boobies” at work and you’re not, I don’t know, an ornithologist or perhaps a burlesque dance instructor, you need to stop, take a good hard look at yourself, and figure out where it all went off the rails.

    8. Michelle*

      Oh yeah, that was weird. It’s like the boss was obsessed with seeing “boobies” and was going to watch the LW pumping no matter what.

    9. Iron Chef Boyardee*

      “I never seem to have luck with block quoting in html and don’t want to just paste a wall of text.”

      Type

      at the beginning of the text you want to quote, and put blockquote > at the end.

      So when you type

      text

      , you’ll get

      text

      Make sure to delete the space between “e” and “>” when you type the codes, otherwise they won’t work.

      1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

        *sigh* Let’s try this again…

        “I never seem to have luck with block quoting in html and don’t want to just paste a wall of text.”

        Type [blockquote] at the beginning of the text you want to quote, and put [/blockquote] at the end.

        So when you type [blockquote] text [/blockquote], you’ll get

        text

        Just make sure to replace the brackets (” [ ] “) with pointy things (“”) when you type the codes, because the pointy things are what actually activates the HTLM.

        1. Iron Chef Boyardee*

          Pointy things that actually don’t show up in text, but you know what I mean.

          * sigh* I need a bottle of Yoo-Hoo… make it a case…

          1. JB (not in Houston)*

            LOL thank you for the help! :) I know in theory how it’s supposed to be done but I somehow always mess it up. Bookmarking this page so I can go back and review next time I want to try it.

    2. Half-Caf Latte*

      Favorite line: “One of the things about academia is that it can take a second to sort out behavior that is malicious, on-purpose, weaponized oddness from behavior that is well-intended but still highly fucking odd.”

  31. Kathy*

    A coworker and friend of mine is going to be taking my supervisor’s position. She is nice but breaks rules frequently (drinking on lunch breaks, talking on her cell phone in her cubicle, being out of dress code, coming in at times that are not her designated shift hours but working a full 8 hours to balance out the time sheet). Our company was even on high alert for her abusive ex as we feared he may come to the office and act violently (absolutely not her fault but cause for concern). Safe to say, I have my own reservations about her being my supervisor. In the last 2 weeks she has taken 2 unexpected half days and her life has been constantly filled with drama. She has a record that has been erased but she was booked for throwing a cement block through a girl’s car who wouldn’t fight her. Lately I’m very prone to keeping to myself and not being overly friendly with her as I have unfortunately lost respect for her the more I’ve gotten to know her. But I do not think she is supervisor material. What should I do to resolve th we feelings? No one else knows she’s being promoted. She told me in confidence.

    1. Talia*

      Are you sure she *is* being promoted? Someone who has a habit of being this dramatic may in fact not be telling you the truth.

        2. New Job So Much Better*

          It’s the perfect time to back away from a friendship, you can explain that she will be your supervisor now and you’re ready to set up some boundaries for both of your benefit.

          1. Jules the 3rd*

            Yes, this. Be warmly polite at work, step away from all the drama / drinks. Get vague about your plans / happenings. “I had a good weekend, how was yours?’

            To reduce the ‘ugh, she’s not that good’ feelings:
            1) Look for what she does well – think about how those things translate into helping the business (ie, she supports flextime, which increases retention)
            2) When she does something you think is not good, name the behavior in your head, then think about whose job it is to deal with it. Applying verbal labels to things reduces their emotional impact, as does analyzing them.

            1. Kathy*

              Rant:
              As an aside, I very much question her judgement because she left work 1 week ago because she was puking in the bathroom yet is putting off taking a pregnancy test, while complaining she has a headache. A lot of her shit and mess of a life has fallen on me, ruining my day by thinking about her problems so I’m out.
              Company has about 400 people worldwide. Owners son seems to take liking to her (gave her a gift). Nothing’s going on but owners son is crossing boundaries. That might have something to do with the fact she got promoted for something most of us would have been giving a warning about.

              Rant over.

              1. Bilateralrope*

                Now I’m wondering who told her she was being promoted. If it was the owners son, does he have the authority to make that happen ?

                1. Kathy*

                  He didn’t. But my supervisor did tell her she was getting promoted. The founder/chairman’s son just has a special liking to her. He may be influencing things behind the scenes.

                2. valentine*

                  He may be influencing things behind the scenes.
                  If this is a family company, you might do well to leave for one that isn’t.

                  The fact she’s so awful, yet your friend, and worrying about her is interfering with your life sounds like enmeshment. Disengaging, disentangling, and distancing yourself from her might do wonders for you.

              2. AnonAcademic*

                I think you need to go on an “information diet” with this person. Meaning, do not seek personal information about them and if they start telling it to you, set a boundary that you can’t be an audience for it. If they are going to be your supervisor you do not need to know about their personal and medical life to the extent you are describing here. I believe you that this person really gets under your skin, but you are not going to come across as professional if you are listing reasons like “won’t take a pregnancy test” and “has charges pending over property destruction” as reasons you don’t want to work under her. Those things don’t actually have anything to do with her ability to supervise you. You may find them unbecoming of a supervisor but by highlighting them as reasons you can’t work with her, you are actually the one acting unprofessional. You come across as overly invested in the personal life of a work colleague, which reflects poorly on your boundaries as well as hers.

              3. Seeking Second Childhood*

                Puking+headache, I’d assume migraine. Definitely sounds like a good time to step back from the connection, because you can lay it entirely on a professional reason not personal.

              4. Hello gorgeous!*

                Your opinion of her as a coworker/supervisor needs to be divorced from your opinion of her as a person/friend.

                Work: she left work early because she was sick
                Friend: she may be pregnant

                Work: a lot of her accounts have been given to me
                Friend: I deal with a lot of her personal drama

                You need to separate, because with the exception of drinking at lunch, no of your complaints are work related! They are friend related! (She threw a cinderblock, she may be pregnant, she has life drama!)

    2. Mama Bear*

      I would be super professional at work and try not to worry about things you know outside of the office unless they directly impact the office/work. If she works an 8 hr day and the job gets done, try not to worry about the details. If she starts to do things that affect your job, then respond appropriately. Managers generally shouldn’t socialize with their direct reports, so you can use that when you decline social outings.

      1. MommaChem*

        I know I’m days late and this may not be seen but a small recommendation on how to tweak Mama Bear’s separation advice: Make it a positive for her.

        “I’m happy for you that you are getting this new opportunity. Most supervisors have to have some personal separation from their direct reports. I am going to take a step back in our personal relationship so you don’t have to be the one to initiate the change. I do wish you all the best in your new role and hope we can continue to have a successful working relationship.”

        Good luck!

  32. Talia*

    I am attempting to write documentation for my job, for a piece of software that hasn’t had it. The problem is that there’s the list of steps, and then there’s the list of “If X, do Y instead”, which I can’t put into a separate document of edge cases because usually it’s very non-obvious that something’s weird– think “sometimes, when you are filling teapot orders, one will randomly refuse to fill. The only way this is indicated is with one field that doesn’t alarm in any way or act any differently on your screen unless you are watching that field, but if you just fill the order without fixing that, it will cause serious problems for other departments down the line. Therefore you must check every time. Usually the refusal to fill is because of X, but not always, and sometimes it really is just the software being ornery. Each of the reasons for this has different solution steps.”

    Every single step has *multiple* cases like that. (No, “use a different software” is not one of the available options.)

    The end result? I have zero idea how to format this document so that it is legible, because every step is filled with “Most of the time do X, but you have to watch carefully in case you have to do Y or Z instead.”

    2. downdate*

      If you’re doing this in Word, suggest you utilize cross-references. Something like:

      1. Open up the door. If there is no door, click here to No Door Case.
      2. Go to the mailbox. If the mailbox is open, go to Open Mailbox. If the mailbox vanished overnight, go to Contact Post Office.
      3. Open mailbox. If the mailbox contains bananas, go to Bananas.
      4. Pick up the mail.

      2. juliebulie*

        Yes. You’re basically writing subroutines for the edge cases and then xref’ing to them as needed. This keeps the clutter out of the main procedure, for those occasions when people are filling the teapot orders without any exceptions.

    3. Kes*

      I think you could still have a list of steps, with a list of edge cases to check for, what to check and how to handle it (or a reference to an entry in a separate document of edge cases) as sub-points to each step

    4. Cheesesticks*

      Can you add the step “Confirm field reads X”? if field does not read X, see alternate steps in Appendix A and maybe add a link to it? Have the appendices at the end of your document.

      1. General von Klinkerhoffen*

        This sounds like the best solution to avoid cluttering the main document.

        Alternatively you could have a Troubleshooting section?

      2. detaill--orieted*

        I can think of two strategies, depending on how common the odd cases are relative to total use. One, elevate the odd cases to the same level as the standard behavior:
        1) Rotation stage

        2) Randomization
        a) Standard teapot

        b) Chocolate-ready teapot

        c) Pre-version-2.1 teapot

        The other, call it out every time:
        2) Randomization stage

        NOTE: if this is a chocolate-ready, non-spouted, or pre-version-2.1 teapot, read Special Randomization instructions.

        I also like the idea, kind of like what @Cheesesticks says, of a checklist at the end of each step. “Before confirming Randomization, check: 1) Is “has handle” checkbox selected for all items in master list? 2) Is . . .”

        In either case, I’d want to back it up with an extensive Troubleshooting/FAQ section as another point of entry, with headings such as: “Is this a chocolate-ready teapot? See . . .” and “Did the tea fail to ionize? See . . .”

    5. On Hold*

      I think if “check that all teapot orders filled correctly and deal with it if not” is a step, you should write it in as a step. Depending on how often this happens, either put the most common fix in there, or direct to a separate section for Troubleshooting.

      The Troubleshooting section could look like this:
      Step 5 (Teapot order didn’t fill correctly): Teapot order failure is not flagged well, but it causes X and Y problems down the line if not fixed. If you see that a teapot order was not filled successfully, these are the troubleshooting steps to take.
      — A: most common scenario:
      — B: Unlikely scenario:
      — C: Somebody told me that they saw this happen once (but honestly I don’t believe them (but I’m mentioning it here just in case)) scenario:
      Step 7 (Out of cheese error): [explanation]
      — A: Redo from start

    6. Hamburke*

      I have a process like this. I write my instructions in outline so I can add this kind of choose your own adventure. I put in a step (step 4 or whatever) in my instructions “verify box X” . And then 4a says “if box X say (desired result), proceed to step 5.” 4b “if box X does not say (desired result): 4bi- troubleshoot routine 1; 4bii – troubleshoot routine 2; etc” I even sometimes add keywords to Google or say to tech support. 95% of the time, I’m bypassing this section of my procedures but it’s so good to have these notes when I need them instead of relying on my memory! Also, no one needs to call me on vacation!

  33. Minocho*

    Yesterday, Tropical Depression Imelda took us by surprise. My office is in downtown Houston, and we thought after Wednesday it would move north east and leave us alone. Oops.

    The public buses were halted, and a bunch of coworkers found themselves stranded without a ride home. I live in an area that wasn’t in danger of flooding (I had to evacuate during Harvey!), but all the freeways to the west side of town from downtown Houston were under water. The afternoon was spent figuring out what we would do to get home, or deciding to maybe stay at the office overnight.

    It took me three hours, but I made it home safely last night. I also took three coworkers who were stranded due to public transit being shut down to their cars. The company was really responsible too – they booked nearly 200 hotel rooms for employee to stay in town overnight if needed.

    This is the best company I’ve ever worked for. I get treated with respect, and am treated like an adult, and it is wonderful.

    2. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

      This is the nicest thing I’ve read all week. I hope everyone stays safe and the flooding recedes soon.

      1. Minocho*

        There were some areas that were really hit hard, but downtown flooding is receding pretty well. I drove into work today without issue (though I am keeping an eye on the weather and road reports!). It’s kinda a ghost town in here today, though. Lost of people opted to work remote – understandably so!

        1. LeighTX*

          I am one of those–I CRAWLED through the Galleria yesterday and didn’t want a repeat of that mess, so I worked from home today. So happy to have that option!

    3. sunshyne84*

      This is what I’m worried about. I’m hoping to get this job downtown, but I’d definitely be stranded under those conditions. I guess I’ll just have to keep some snacks on hand.

  34. sensitive topic*

    I am not sure if this is the right place to write it, as it is quite sensitive so please feel free to delete…

    Earlier this week. Early morning. 2 coworkers talking to each other–both guys in 20s. One has very explicitly said he and his wife don’t want to have kids and that if his wife ends up pregnant, they’ll abort etc. (it’s a very open office and we all talk to each other about random stuff). Well, that led to some pretty gross abortion jokes. I’m pro choice so the stance doesn’t bother me, but the graphic jokes rubbed me the wrong way.

    I’m feeling heavy/guilty about not stopping it in the moment

    -Neither reports to me but I don’t think that matters? No matter my position, i *could* have said, please take this conversation elsewhere/stop it etc

    -They’ve both shown to be otherwise nice and reasonable people.

    -Inappropriate/TMI jokes are the culture here. I usually have no issue with it.

    -I had ample time to say something, but my thought process was–these are my own private issues. No one else was there to be bothered by that conversation. I was part of the conversation until it took that turn and I went back to my work right away.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      As long as Inappropriate / TMI jokes are the culture, it’s really hard to challenge any one example of that. In the moment, if you respond jokingly with “Ew gross” or any other light response, it would just encourage more jokes. If you answer seriously, you get a hit to your professional reputation, of being ‘uptight’ or ‘not a team player.’

      I would not willingly work for a place with that culture. If I did have to work there, I would either become the office grump on all the jokes (“Y’all are way out of line. Grow up, and stop with the gross jokes.”) and take the professional hit or, as you did, walk away when they hit my personal line.

      *IF* you are close to one or both of the guys, you could have a quiet conversation and say, “I know we have a pretty bro culture, but [graphic reference x] was just too much for me. Could you not joke about [graphic reference x] in future?”

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        Caveat: I am a white cis mid-career geeky female with an advanced degree, so I have a pretty high relative privilege, which helps minimize that professional hit. I would not look down on anyone who did not choose to take it.

    2. juliebulie*

      It wasn’t your responsibility to shut it down. Or to put it another way, it was less your responsibility than it was theirs. So there’s no reason to feel badly about it now.

      But if you still feel that you should say something next time, remember how badly you felt this time. That might make it easier for you to act.

    3. fposte*

      I don’t think it was your responsibility to shut it down. If it did make you uncomfortable, you did have the prerogative to ask them to move it along or refrain while around you, but that doesn’t mean you were obliged to do it.

      To me it sounds simply like you’re realizing now you wish you’d asked them to take the jokes elsewhere. I think that’s a reasonable response but it doesn’t need to bury you; just keep that thought in your pocket for future use.

      1. Joielle*

        Yep, this. It was your prerogative to ask them to stop, but not your responsibility.

        If it comes up again, you can say something – doesn’t have to be a serious conversation, just “WELP, that’s where I take my leave” or “Bleh, too much” or something while you turn back to your work. I’m sure they knew they were skirting the line of inappropriateness with that kind of joke and if they’re decent guys, would be apologetic if you said something in the future.

        1. tamarack and fireweed*

          I dunno. I’ve been thinking hard lately about this responsibility thing when it comes to issues of conduct and discriminatory behavior. It’s true that it wasn’t any more your responsibility to shut it down, but on the other hand, whether something like this gets shut down or not makes the difference between a place in which a diverse bunch of people feel welcome. I mean, I’ll never have children and never was pregnant, and am fine with abortion, but joking about punching a woman in the stomach to induce traumatic loss of a pregnancy is WAY out of line.

          So I’ve set myself a personal policy that I speak up if I can. I’ve done it a small number of times now in situations where I didn’t used to, and it’s a range from “lost a FB friend-of-a-friend who I appreciated for her knowledge in [specialty hobby] but otherwise thought as a bit stuck-up anyway” to “tough but good discussion with person I care about very much”. Is it a risk? Sure. And if you do it, think hard beforehand what the best setting is. A preamble of “I need to bring something up that I’ve seen go badly, and I like you, so I really don’t want it to go badly, but this is important to me” to put an interlocutor in the right mindset has been helpful.

          Alternatively you could report it — not as an abortion joke, but as a graphic partner violence/ violence against women joke.

          1. Avasarala*

            I don’t think it’s appropriate to suddenly report two dudes for making abortion jokes in an office where off-color/inappropriate humor is normally OK. Sounds like OP is normally OK with this stuff but this one time just felt overboard. In that case it’s up to OP to say something to the dudes. It would be kind of underhanded to go straight to reporting them for making jokes about “violence against women” if you know they were toeing a line that is otherwise culturally OK in your office.

            And also I don’t think it’s always necessary to step in to conversations (literally or online) and police them for “conduct” on behalf of people who aren’t you, who are imaginary and might be offended. If you’re in the conversation and it bothers you, say something. But if you’re just passing by and you’re not bothered but “someone else might be” it just seems really performative and virtue-signaling.

            1. tamarack and fireweed*

              I pretty much disagree with every one of your points.

              1. It’s completely irrelevant whether I feel offended. As I often say, a racist may feel offended by the idea of having to work on equal terms with a black person. It’s not the sincerity of feelings that’s at issue here.
              2. People shouldn’t be having to endure casual jokes about punching women in the stomach, or about getting rid of a pregnancy given that strong, legitimate, desires and fears regarding pregnancy cut both ways. Especially not when the jokes aren’t even coming from people talking about what they’d do with their own bodies, but about violating other people’s bodies.
              3. If I lose coworkers or team members who should be feeling welcome and respected over this kind of shit, it concerns me. If people are keeping their head down at work trying to stay out of the way of the bros waving their penises around, it concerns me. And don’t tell me this sort of thing doesn’t differentially impact women and other people who aren’t straight guys (probably mostly white).
              4. If *this* is what pushes the OP finally across a line, in an office where the tone and conduct is generally already at below-sewer level, good for them. It’s not virtue-signalling. It’s actually making things overall better.

    4. matcha123*

      I’m female, don’t want kids, and have many female friends of varying racial backgrounds who also don’t want kids. I think we’ve all made pretty graphic jokes about abortion and what we’d do if we got pregnant. Is your problem with men talking about abortion or about the jokes or about men making the jokes? Why do you feel like you would have needed to say something? Especially if you seem to be working in a place where that type of humor is par for the course?

      1. sensitive topic*

        The jokes themselves–punching them in the stomach, throwing her down the stairs, using a coat hanger etc. I’ve had 3 losses, and want to be pregnant and have children, but have issues conceiving/carrying–no one in my office knows this, as it’s none of their business, and I don’t think that should have any bearing on why it’s too far/inappropriate even in an office where everything else is fair game. Again–I’m pro-choice, I just don’t want to hear graphic jokes.

        1. fposte*

          I’m really sorry for your losses; that is very hard indeed.

          I think that “they went too far” and “I don’t want to hear it” aren’t necessarily the same thing; I had thought you were going toward the second, but maybe you’re really thinking the first and wishing not just that you’d moved them away but that they had realized they had crossed a line. As Jules says, I think it’s hard to differentiate a single crossed line from others in a workplace that specializes in them, so you’ll have better luck in saying “Dudes, that’s too much for me–take it outside, please” than “Dudes, you’ve crossed from edgy to creepy,” but the second could be a possibility if you feel it and are comfortable with expending the capital.

          1. sensitive topic*

            Thank you @fposte …… I wasn’t too sure of the difference so my default was to stay quiet. I was considering saying “OK please take it elsewhere” but by the time I did, the topic had already changed so it would have been moot I guess.

        2. emmelemm*

          Those are some pretty bad jokes, I have to say. (And I’m pro-choice and not above risky/risque humor, I think?) Those jokes are two-fers: not only are they about – I refuse to say killing babies, because that’s not what abortion is, but perhaps “destroying fetuses” – they’re also about hurting/abusing adult women. And that’s not right. You would definitely not have been wrong to say, “Hey, that took a turn for the not cool.”

          But don’t feel bad that you didn’t. It’s always hard to veer away from the prevailing culture. It’s enough that you basically disengaged.

        3. LilySparrow*

          I think men “joking” about punching their wives or throwing them down the stairs for any reason is pretty awful.

          Would you consider this normal “TMI” for your office about any other topic? Or does the abortion reference somehow make it different than ….ya know, men talking about beating women as a funny joke?

        4. Kat in VA*

          I am very sorry for your loss. I have had a miscarriage myself. It’s not easy. I’m totally pro-choice myself…but…I don’t wanna hear graphic jokes that have the added bonus of YAY VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.

          I have epic Resting Bitch Face as it is, but I’ve very much perfected the art of the icy glare and a level, “That’s enough, thank you.” in my best, calmest, deadliest MomVoice.

          Sometimes simple works best. You don’t have to justify / argue / defend / explain – just “That’s enough, thank you.”

      1. fposte*

        It’s really hard to say in isolation. It would depend on the employees in question and their general behavior/merits, and it would also require grappling with what you’ve described as a workplace where the edgy is usually acceptable. In my workplace those would be *way* over the line; if I overheard, I was in management, and it was a one-off, I think it would be “WHOA! Bob and Ray, in here a moment please….We do not make violent jokes about unborn babies in this workplace, or anything else that could be straining to make edgy comedy about the personal experiences of people around you. Do not *ever* do that again.” If you came to me after the fact, I’d probably pull them in and say much the same to them.

        But I suspect from how you describe your workplace I’d draw a line way before they got to that joke, because I think your workplace is going way too far and possibly risking legal trouble as a result.

    6. Rexasaurus Tea*

      There was a post here a while ago about a person whose co-workers liked to discuss true crime podcasts, especially murder-related ones, and some good suggestions came out of there. (will add a link in a separate reply.) I don’t think it’s too late to go to one of them and say something like “Hey, earlier this when you and I and Barney were joking around about [however you want to describe it] the conversation took a turn that got pretty [dark/graphic/yourwordchoice]. Pregnancy loss is a topic that can hit some people really hard even if they haven’t shared it with anyone, and I’d hate it if we accidentally made someone uncomfortable. We should probably save that one for outside the workplace.”

      I put “we” because you said you had been part of the conversation earlier, and that way it comes across more as “oops, we need to check ourselves” rather than “you really crossed a line.” That does carry the risk of them thinking that you’re ok with this topic as long as it’s away from the office, so there might be better phrasing if you want to avoid that altogether.

    7. Gumby*

      You do you. But also consider: you were uncomfortable but did not feel empowered to say anything. Is it possible that there were other people around who were also uncomfortable and also didn’t feel like they could say anything? I would never work out in an office where that type of joking was a regular feature because my TMI limit appears to be much too low. But there have got to be a fair number of people between me and inappropriate-dudes who would *also* be uncomfortable with joking about domestic violence (punching? throwing down the stairs?).

      1. sensitive topic*

        Hi Gumby, it was early in the day, before people came in, so I was the only one in that general area to hear it. I’m 10000% sure if my boss heard it they would’ve shut it down but they were out that day. And they stopped pretty quickly, but if it comes up again, I’ll speak up.

        Not sure if this matters but the TMI usually verges on bathroom humor. I had a decent conversation with one of the guys, not about that but inappropriateness in general (not a lecture From me but we were talking about some comedy specials etc).

    8. Seeking Second Childhood*

      A tactic I’ve used in the past was to pop around the cubicle wall and say “hey guys. Your voices carry really clearly and we hear everything over here.”
      Ie I just talk about volume. Because a quiet open office benefits all of us anyway.

  35. Jerkface*

    We have XM radio over speakers at work since we can’t bring headphones into our work area. Our security staff controls the station and they usually do a pretty good job of mixing up the genres, some of which I enjoy, some I don’t. But at least once a week someone switches it to a Christian music station. There’s nothing particularly offensive on the station. It’s mostly croony music with lyrics about being in God’s hands, how awesome Jesus is, etc. But it just makes me feel uncomfortable because that’s not my religion. Do you think it’s okay to bring up my discomfort with my manager and, if so, how should I phrase it? I’m worried that complaining at all will make them stop playing XM altogether because I know there’s also a couple people at work who feel uncomfortable with songs that even remotely suggest something sexual, even if they’re non-explicit, and very few of the stations are 100% clean in that regard (they did stop playing Hair Nation after someone complained.)

    1. blink14*

      I think something to keep in mind is that a lot of music not on a Christian music station has religious tones or was actually written about religion, it’s just not as overt. There are some very mainstream bands, particularly from the late 90s-early 2000s who are often sub classified as Christian rock (Lifehouse, Switchfoot, and Creed come to mind).

      I think there’s probably something on every station someone would find offensive, to be honest. As long as its not an every day thing, I’d leave it alone.

      1. curly sue*

        Heck, even many of Imagine Dragons’ songs are overtly Christian in their messaging and metaphors. It’s so steeped in to western popular culture that unless you’re coming in from outside, it’s hard to see how all-pervasive it is. That being said, I’d be uncomfortable with being forced to listen to ‘croony lyrics’ that explicitly mention Jesus. Maybe there’s another station that’s a better compromise?

      2. EnfysNest*

        There’s a big difference between an occasional song with religious tone / religion-inspired and flat-out worship music all day long, though. There are plenty of other stations available that aren’t solely dedicated to praise songs. And even if other stations occasionally have one song that is a bit questionable, it’s still not going to be every song all day long.

        1. Librarian of SHIELD*

          I agree with you. There’s “songs from mainstream pop artists who sometimes use religious metaphors in their music” and then there’s “music that’s ideally suited to a church service.” Type one is okay in a workplace in limited quantity, which is what you get with a standard mainstream radio station. Type two is not for a non-religious workplace.

          1. Kat in VA*

            In the manner that R3D or P.O.D. or even Jars of Clay are entirely different from the genre I like to call “Jesus, Be My Boyfriend” music (no offense to anyone if you like that stuff), I totally agree with you.

    2. voyager1*

      Being they are mixing it up leads me to think they are trying to please everyone. But yeah it is kind of annoying at the same time.

    3. matcha123*

      You might be able to phrase it as having Christian pop songs playing can send the message that your office is a religious one and that may cause some clients to pigeon-hole your business. Or maybe that songs with a religious message shouldn’t be played in the office.
      To be honest, I don’t think “It makes me uncomfortable because it’s not my religion” will get you very far.

    4. Joielle*

      If someone can complain about Hair Nation and have that complaint taken seriously, I think you can complain about the Jesus station. You can look at it as a case study – do you know who complained about Hair Nation and are they being given a hard time about it? If not, you’re probably fine.

      To be fair, I know exactly what kind of music you’re talking about and I HATE it, it’s like nails on a chalkboard. So I absolutely would bring it up, but I’m biased. I’d probably just end up blurting out “THIS IS HORRIBLE, PLEASE, ANY OTHER MUSIC” though so YMMV.

    5. EnfysNest*

      I often listen to one of those stations on my own in my car or with headphones in, but it’s definitely inappropriate to have playing overhead for everyone in the office – it’s meant to be worship music. There should not be an “official religion” of your workplace, and that’s the impression that office-wide Christian worship music gives. Please feel free to email either the security staff manager or HR and request that religious radio stations be removed from the music rotation.

    6. Mellow*

      I agree with the comments that point out religious references in mainstream music.

      I consider myself an atheist, but I can jam to the Doobie Brothers’ “Jesus is Just Alright” any day. Plus, the soundtrack to “Jesus Christ Superstar” is nearly perfect, as far as I’m concerned.

      I also agree with the comment that they’re likely trying to play something for everyone.

  36. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

    How would you flag this position? Red, yellow or green? I’m considering applying but there are several things that don’t feel right to me (starred) such as contract and 20 hours a week and having employees, but maybe you can shed some light on how to look at them in a different light? Thank you.

    Executive Director
    Remote position
    * 20 hours a week
    * Contract position
    * Responsible for some paid workers but most are students/alumni turned volunteers, all are remote located
    Reports to Board of Directors
    Typical ED functions/responsibilities but fundraising is primarily in the hands of an alumni foundation and students.

    This is a new position/first time ED
    Organization recently re-orged
    Board president is new to their role but not as a Board member (as I know the Board president from the current organization for which I work)
    I’ve been an ED before but not remote, not contract, not 20 hours a week

    1. Carol*

      To me, I would flag this as red. While I understand that some executive director positions may be remote, the fact that it’s only 20 hours a week and contract in combination is concerning to me.

      1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

        “he fact that it’s only 20 hours a week and contract in combination is concerning to me.” This is where I’m bothered, too. Thanks for your thoughts.

    2. fposte*

      I have a hard time making sense of this one. It’s connected to an alumni foundation, but it’s remote and only 20 hours a week? Is it contract for a reason?

      Since you know the board president, I’d contact them to see if they can fill in the picture to make it all seem less weird. But right now it sounds like “We’ve got no money for this position and we have a culture of expecting work for free.”

      1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

        I think it might be contracted because it’s their first ED hire?

        It’s a college service organization (with greek letters) so students assume much of the grassroots leadership level who report to regional staff (who are usually volunteer alumna). The alumna foundation raises funds but I assume I’d be responsible for management/oversight.

        Yes, questions to ask if I were to apply. The resume is due this week.

        Thansk for your insight

        1. fposte*

          Academia also often works on a contract basis, so they could just be drawing on that model? But it’s still a general puzzlement.

        2. It’s A Bird, It’s A Plane, It’s SuperAnon*

          Funny enough, the posting does remind me of a Greek letter org I’m a part of and how our first ED was hired. Started as part time, quickly grew to a salaried FT position because there was so much to do as the only employee, and from there grew to a number of other part time (some also remote) employees within 8 years.

          If this position grows at all, that contract is going to be a PITA to either update or remove, especially with a Board or Directors who are also likely remote and working FT jobs of their own. It will tie the ED’s hands more than it’s worth.

          1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

            Great comment and thoughts. Thank you

            The only time I’ve been an ED was as the sole administrative employee (I had 5 employees at the thrift store). I did everything myself, with some active Board members for help. I was FT and underpaid for sure. It was a very eye-opening, challenging and worthwhile experience but I’d never do it again like that.

    3. zora*

      Yeah, an ED as a contract position in the US is Communist Parade-level Red Flag to me. I mean, most ED jobs require you to raise your own salary anyway, but being on a contract is very strange and not necessary even with zero paid staff.

      But since you know the Board president, I would think you could consider applying for the job and then asking a lot of questions about this contract set up in the interview process and figure out if it’s an option to change the set up.

    4. JessicaTate*

      I was on the board of an organization that hired an ED under these types of terms (with the exception of having paid workers… that’s hard to square). For an organization wanting their first ED, getting into all of the paperwork / requirements of hiring an actual employee can be more than they’re ready for. So, you go the contractor route. With that, however, while we suggested that we think the work will take, on average, 20 hours per week, it was also clear that it’s a contract position, so the ED was responsible for their hours and what it took to get the contracted work/deliverables done. It was also remote because the organization didn’t have an HQ. It was a national professional group, and everyone was everywhere.

      So, I think it’s just a yellow flag; mainly because board-run organizations without real staff can be difficult to work with and they haven’t worked with an ED before. I’d say apply if you know the Board President to be a good egg, and ask lots of questions in the interview process to test their readiness and reality levels.

      1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

        Your comment prompted me to re-read some of the organization hierarchy/levels.

        The leadership team is considered middle management, with their own duties and supervision of coordinators (volunteers). Some members of this team are Board appointed, while some are elected in the spring while some are contracted with non-members. That would be a non-member (or member) contracted paid position.

        I’ve tried to reconstruct the organization and frankly, this might be too out of my wheelhouse with all the different chapters, alumni, teams, and unpaid and paid staff.

        I’ve tried to

      2. Oh No She Di'int*

        Thank you for helping me make sense of something that on the surface looked totally baffling to me.

        1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

          “on the surface looked totally baffling to me” it still doesn’t make total sense to me either which means that there might be some conflicts and weird workarounds due to adding an ED to the mix. Perhaps its the unique life as a Greek letter org that I don’t understand (although I was in a sorority in college and at that level it was different viewpoint).

    5. JR*

      I am an ED working 20 hours per week, supervising paid staff and volunteers, but I’m a W2 employee. The 20 hours is fine, it fits the current needs (and budget!) of the organization (and it’s what I was looking for). My understanding, though, is that it’s extremely rare for an ED to meet the qualifications for being a contract employee.

      1. Globo Gym Purple Cobra*

        ” is that it’s extremely rare for an ED to meet the qualifications for being a contract employee.” Very good point and one that I considered in my assessment.

  37. Winter Blazer*

    Hi all! Very quick question with the Fall and Winter coming up. I’m starting a position that will require a blazer near daily, and I’m stumped by what to do with it when I need to wear a parka/winter coat. Do I wear it under my coat? Just leave all my blazers in my office? (I’m female and wear women’s clothes, if it makes a difference)

    1. Beth Jacobs*

      I’ve always worn a blazer under my coat. I commute by public transport and the extra layer is nice when waiting for my tram. But leaving it in the office would work just as well – in fact, I do recommend leaving at least one there, just in case you forget to put one on at home.

      1. Joielle*

        Same here! I purposely bought a heavy winter coat that’s just a tad bigger than I usually like so that blazers fit well underneath. But I do keep a black and a navy blazer at work in case of spills or unexpected meetings.

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        I wear blazers under my coats as well – I order a size up from my regular size to accommodate the extra bulk.

    2. Kiki*

      I wear blazers under my coats and take the warmth of the blazer into account when I pick how heavy a coat I need. The only issue I sometimes have is difficulty moving my arms if the coat’s sleeves are too tight with the blazer on.

    3. blink14*

      I personally would overheat very quickly with a blazer and a coat on. I would also take into account what the office temps are like – will you be warm through the day? Cold? I would probably leave some blazer options in your office or wear a coat meant to go over a suit jacket – like a trench or even a “walking coat” which generally is cut more loosely.

    4. I'm A Little Teapot*

      I wear jackets year round because I get cold. Additional coats or jackets get added on top, as needed.

    5. CheeryO*

      Fashion-wise, you’re probably “supposed” to wear a blazer under a structured winter coat, like a pea coat. However, being a person who lives in a wintry place, I’m all about comfort over fashion. If your parka fits over your blazer and doesn’t make it wrinkle terribly, just go for it. No one will care.

    6. downdate*

      Wear it under your coat. (Unless fit’s an issue and your winter coat is tightfit and this isn’t the year to get a new coat.)

    7. Yarrow*

      I typically leave one or two blazers at work. I have 2 in neutral colors that look good with all my stuff. Some people also wear a coat that’s a little big because they like to wear blazers or sweaters underneath.

    8. Dr. Anonymous*

      Blazer under coat if the coat is big enough. I did keep a couple of blazers in my office when I was a bicycle commuter, though.

    9. Seeking Second Childhood*

      The critical followup question for me is where to get one? I’m not a big shopper and used to walk past stores…this job I have to go out of my way to go to any store. I’m fussy about fit so online isn’t my preference.

      1. Kat in VA*

        Burlington Coat Factory is usually pretty good for a wide selection of winter coats – everything from “This will probably fall apart after a season or two” cheap buys to really well made (and more expensive) coats that will last a very long time. My husband has a leather trench coat we bought back in the mid-90s that he still hauls out occasionally when it gets into the bitter DC winter here.

      2. Autumnheart*

        If you’re not plus-sized, Express, Talbots, Ann Taylor, Loft, GAP, Nordstrom, and off-price stores like Marshalls, TJ Maxx, Ross, etc.

    10. Autumnheart*

      Wear it under your coat. You may consider acquiring a longer-length winter coat for this purpose. I second Beth Jacobs’ suggestion that leaving a spare in the office isn’t a bad idea.

  38. Beth Jacobs*

    In reaction to last week’s thread about the manager with 10 000 unread emails, how do you manage yours?

    I’m in the ballpark of about 50 emails a week, so I just read as I go. I use Outlook flags to keep track of tasks, but apart from that, don’t really organise it. I have no issues with replying on time, but have sometimes trouble finding an old email, so I’m going to try sorting them into folders by project. For people who do this – do you also have separate folders for organisational office emails (think cake, sign up for training, timesheet deadline, etc.) or do you leave those in the main inbox? I guess my main worry is that I won’t know where to put some emails.

    1. otterbaby*

      If they’re things that you’re going to be emailing about on a regular basis, I would definitely create a folder for them. I have department folders (e.g. accounts, operations, IT, marketing, etc.), staff folders (e.g. personal items, x boss, x supervisor, etc.), other industry specific ones, and then I also have a ‘to-do’ folder and a ‘reference’ folder. I keep items that I’m waiting on information for in the to-do one, and items that I’ll typically refer to frequently in my reference folder (like a new procedure that I’m still getting the hang of, a user guide, etc.). I like to keep my inbox completely empty aside from emails that I’m in the process of actioning – in a perfect world, my inbox is empty at the end of the day!

    2. Ginger Baker*

      I have my inbox set up like so: I have a number of folders that are specific things that I have rules set for to auto-filter to. These are generally emails I get that require just a quick review from me, if that. For examples: FedEx items have a folder, conflict checks have a folder, “training tip” emails have a folder, emails from the travel agency have a folder, meeting invites have a folder, etc. All these go to those folders automatically and I review and mark as read once I’ve seen them. What’s left comes into my inbox. I keep things in my inbox until I have done whatever I need to do with them, and then I file them into my “Processed” folder. You might find it helpful to have separate client or project folders for that filing; I generally just use the search function and that’s more than sufficient but occasionally I do create subfolders for specific projects. I have occasionally used a “waiting for” folder; ymmv. The other folder I keep is “Kudos and Achievements”, which is where I drop emails that were a particularly great comment on my work or a reference to a specific project I’m proud of and want to be sure to include on my review.

    3. Rey*

      Here’s my system: anything I haven’t responded to stays in my Inbox. Anything that is completed (or didn’t require a response) goes into a folder marked “DONE”. I have a handful of subfolders within “DONE”, and if it doesn’t clearly fall into those categories, it stays in DONE. All the organizational office emails stay in the DONE folder, because I don’t have a subfolder just for that. My goal is just to optimize searching for those emails later for a specific project or ongoing responsibility. Since I rarely have to refer back to cake, sign up for training, etc. I don’t worry about it. Right now I have 1o subfolders; 3 are for specific projects and the rest are for ongoing responsibilities. I pick those subfolders based on ease of searching and finding the item later. For example, all emails about purchasing and reimbursements go in one subfolder, so that if I need to find a specific email about a purchase, I can search in that folder by the vendor name without having to sort through other, non-purchase references to the vendor. I hope that helps.

    4. CheeryO*

      Miscellaneous stuff like that just stays in my inbox. Just setting up folders and rules for your projects will be a big help – you don’t need to have a place for every single email, imo.

    5. The Blue Marble*

      I keep all emails active until I need to archive them. I also use the follow up/task flags a lot. At the end of 60 days or so, I archive older emails naming them “Old Emails 2019” and “Sent Emails 2019.” I found I can easily sort through them by person, subject or date when needing to go back and reference. I have found that less is better when it comes to sorting and using specific folders.

    6. cat socks*

      I work in software development and manage multiple projects at a time. I have folders for each project and then sub-folders for various items related to those projects.

      I delete emails pretty quickly from my in-box if they are not needed, but I don’t empty my deleted items folder very often.

      I usually go through all the emails in my in-box and delete them or reply right away if it is quick response. Otherwise I put emails in a “Follow Up” folder if I need to do more work before sending a response.

      I have a “Waiting for Response” folder for items where I need to get a question answered from someone else. If I don’t see a response by the time I need it, I can easily find the email and send a follow up.

      For the organizational emails you mentioned, I’d probably put those in my Follow Up folder and them delete them once the task was completed. For things like time sheet deadlines, I put a recurring meeting on my calendar with a reminder to do complete it each week.

      I’ve been in the work world for almost 20 years and this is the system that works best for me to get to in-box zero.

      I’m also one of those people that sometimes needs to look up an email from several years ago. So having things grouped by projects and specific folders definitely helps. Although I do use the search functionality in Outlook to look for certain keywords if I can’t find the email.

    7. Alex*

      What makes sense will depend on your job. My job is account focused, so I have folders for emails that pertain to each of my accounts, and then subfolders to deal with sub categories. Some of my accounts have a quarterly cadence to them so the subfolders are per quarter. Some of my accounts it makes more sense to file according to different parts of the project (emails from the llama groomer, the collar designer, the behavioral trainer, etc.) Some of my accounts I use some combo of quarterly and project part folders.

      I then have a few extra folders for non account related topics, and one catch-all for miscellaneous. I read my emails as they come in generally, and keep them in my inbox if it is something that needs my attention. Once I’ve addressed an email it can go into its permanent folder home, although generally I just do this once or twice a week, and the same goes for my “Sent” folder. I’ll typically generate anywhere from 100-200 emails per week, depending (counting received and sent) not counting spam and email list crap, which all gets deleted immediately.

      Every once in a while I’ll go through my folders and delete anything older than two years, which is the amount of time my office requires us to keep things.

  39. Mimmy*

    Looking for a reality check:

    This week has been tough on me mentally. Not sure if it’s because I’m doing more than I’m used to (regular job 3 days/week, internship 2 days a week, though half of the time, I’m working from home) or if I’m getting burned out at my regular job or what. On the surface, one would think that Regular Job is easier than the kind of work I’m looking to get into (hence the internship). Yet, I feel myself more distressed about Regular Job.

    I wonder if part of it is that the field I’m looking to pivot into has a lot of professional resources–professional association, publications, networking opportunities–whereas in Regular Job, I don’t feel as supported, likely because I’m essentially a perma-temp.

    But I’m scared because if I can’t handle easy Regular Job, what makes me think I can handle a field that is exciting but can be very challenging. Maybe I’m deluding myself with the presence of these professional resources for the new field. It could also be that I’m beginning to not trust my ability to handle bureaucracy and office politics, based on what’s going on at Regular Job.

    1. Yarrow*

      Been there. Might currently be there. I would focus on analyzing the elements of the fields that you feel you can’t deal with. Are those things you think would change from job to job within the field or do you need to be in a different industry?

    2. Bunny Girl*

      So I just dealt with this earlier this summer. For over three months I worked full time (5 days a week) and then I worked an additional 20 hours at my internship. I was obviously really burnt out, but I felt a lot more stress during my full time job where I do essentially nothing than when I was at my other job which was insanely challenging. There’s a huge difference between doing a challenging job that you like and feel passionate about and a job where you aren’t passionate about. I personally don’t like my regular job at all. I get stressed out, I’m really crabby at the end of the week, and I get so depressed on Sundays that I normally just lay on the couch in a trance Sunday evenings. But I used to work in another job somewhat connected to my field and it kicked my butt and I still loved it. I worked 6 days a week and was up at 4am everyone and I bounced out the door.

      The point is, if you like and are happy to go somewhere every day, it’s a lot easier than going to a job that you don’t like that just pays the bills. Good luck!!

      1. Mimmy*

        There’s a huge difference between doing a challenging job that you like and feel passionate about and a job where you aren’t passionate about…. But I used to work in another job somewhat connected to my field and it kicked my butt and I still loved it.

        Oh this made me feel so much better! I think it boils down to the fact that, in Regular Job (as an instructor), I am the only instructor of the skill that I teach. There are two other instructors who teach a related skill, but it’s not the same. My supervisor has tried to be helpful, but…again…she doesn’t see the nitty-gritty of what I deal with (I know it’s fairly common for supervisors to not have the same level of understanding of a particular job as the front-line worker).

        In the field I’m considering, there are rich sources of information and people I can tap into, people who understand the challenges. While I’ll admit to being nervous about whether or not I can truly handle a job in this field, I love that I’m LEARNING. While I have learned at Regular Job, I know that if I stay where I’m at, I am going to burn out from boredom and aggravation.

  40. matcha123*

    Should I be open with people in my department about the reasons why I am not getting much work?

    From the moment I started at my office about 2 years ago, a colleague who checks my work, but isn’t my supervisor, has been insistent that I don’t like her, that I’m stuck up, whatever.
    I have maintained that I have no problems with her, and I’m not not talking to her, I just don’t have a lot to say that would interest her. When she speaks to me, I maintain a friendly demeanor (smile, eye contact, answer questions).

    Things got pretty ugly for a while, but over the past few months it seems like she is trying to be more friendly.
    Two of her acquaintances have also started working at my workplace with one working directly with me.

    I had lunch with some colleagues who often ask my team to do work for them and they spoke about how difficult it was to work with us. Basically, they are not allowed to speak directly to us ‘parttimers’ and must talk to other full-time staff who then relay us the information. Having worked as a parttimer in the same kind of office, but a different location, I know that our team’s style is inefficient and reflects poorly on us. Being able to communicate directly with the people who are asking us to work on projects is a huge plus that many in our line of work do not have.

    While I said nothing, I am very sure that the colleague on my team and my supervisor have actively been blocking work from coming to me and other teammates. This causes a backlog and means that when other departments come to us with projects, the answer is often “we are too busy.” I, however am not busy at all!

    Now, do I tell other people this when they ask about my workflow, or is it better to pretend I know nothing? To add, I am sure that my supervisor would say that I know nothing about the office, and therefore my product cannot be trusted (despite transferring in from a similar department and being told that my previous experience was a major factor in my being hired).

    On the one hand our relationships are slowly thawing, on the other I don’t think it’s fair to other departments that we are creating a backlog and making workflow and communication more difficult to please one person. I am parttime and can’t really change anything myself. What say you?

    1. Myrin*

      Who would theoretically have the authority to change that weird “no talking to the part-timers directly” rule? It sounds like this is something that only pertains to your team so I’m guessing it also originated with someone on your team? If so, is there a supervisor or grandboss above that person who this issue could be brought up with?

      1. matcha123*

        My supervisor would be the one who could change it, but she won’t because the colleague who isn’t my fan doesn’t want people talking about projects with anyone aside from the full-timers and herself.
        I brought up the issue with our department head before he was transferred, and it seems like he left it to my supervisor who ultimately is looking to make my colleague happy.

    2. san junipero*

      As frustrating as it is, I’d go with the “I know nothing” approach. I can’t think of a way to tell the truth without coming across like you’re badmouthing your supervisor/coworker.

      The one thing you might be able to mention is that the rule makes things inefficient on both sides. Beyond that, I think you’re out of luck.

    3. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I’d suggest language like “I have room in my schedule next week, unless Cersei has something planned for me. Talk to her– she’s the one who assigns my work.”

  41. Ariana Grande's Ponytail*

    YES I am finally here early this week!

    I’ve been having some issues with a coworker that my boss suggested I solve with beer. I’ve been working on wrapping up a long-term project for several months now. It’s been taking up the majority of my time and energy. This is an academic environment, and one of our grad students was asked to help out with a section of the project some time ago. Then, several weeks ago I hear through the grapevine that she has asked one of my coworkers, who asked another coworker, who assigned an undergrad to do some work on this project, all without anyone looping me, the project lead, in on it. It screwed up my process and was very duplicative. I dealt with it, and noted to my coworkers that I need to be included in communication on any part of the larger project. This week, I start getting wind of the grad student communicating with the other staff members and not me again (ironically, in the same email thread that I had started with the three of them, basically hitting reply-all and then deleting me) about their section of the project. I tried figuring out if there was a reason for this with one of my coworkers, but then resolved to just bring it up to my boss because I feel I’ve already given it a solid try at this point, and it’s inhibiting my ability to do my job. My boss suggested I take the grad student out for a beer and tell them that I want to work out any issues between us. I barely make enough money to take myself out to a beer, much less take an insolent person who works on my project very part-time out to kiss up. So, keeping in mind that apparently my manager is not going to manage, what do?

    In other news, I got an email this morning inviting me to interview at a job in the private sector, so maybe I will be out of here sooner than I thought. Fingers crossed!

    1. fposte*

      Have you spoken directly to the grad student *without* a beer? I’m not seeing it in there. Unless there’s an issue with her advisor or something, you’re the project lead and she’s messing with the project; pull her in and have a talk.

    2. M*

      Yeah, I mean, no to the beer – alcohol and serious conversations about someone’s work performance don’t mix. But like fposte says, if you haven’t spoken directly to her, you *definitely* need to. Set a time, ask her what’s going on, let her talk out whatever weird reason she’s decided to keep cutting you out of the loop, then tell her it can’t happen again and it’s on her to ensure it doesn’t. If you think your coworkers are susceptible to being drawn into overstepping again – for example, if they’re a bit spacy about checking whether you already have plans for how to solve issues in the project before trying to solve them themselves – have a follow-up chat with them separately, setting some boundaries on what they can do without checking in with you.

    3. Mama Bear*

      No beer, but I’d talk to them. If it happens again, I’d take the emails to my boss for a further discussion. I’d also go back to the email chain before you were taken off it and reiterate to everyone there that you are the lead on this and you need to be kept on emails/kept informed of the progress of the project.

  42. Ali G*

    Hi All! I need some advice from people in event planning who work closely with hotels, specifically.
    I am planning a conference for about 200 people next year. I’ve done this before, but I ran into something I have not dealt with before with the hotel I contracted as the venue.
    As part of the conference we are holding a Board meeting the day before. This means most of the Board members will come in 2-days before the conference starts and need hotel rooms. I added rooms to our block so they could do this – no big deal.
    One of my Board members couldn’t use the online link to make reservations because there weren’t any double rooms available. She typically shares a room with another Board members (state/Provincial government, so this is normal). The Board member she shares with is also in a wheelchair. They are good friends and always bunk together.
    Well, when she called to make a reservation, she was told that there are no ADA rooms with 2 double beds, only king. And they won’t put in a rollaway bed due to fire code. I called my event manager and she said she would take care of it, but after multiple contacts from me, and my Board member actually talking to the hotel manager, we haven’t reconciled anything. It’s now been 24 hours since I both called and emailed my event manager to see how she is going to fix this, and she hasn’t responded.
    So, is it unreasonable of me to be surprised that all the ADA rooms (which also we were told could not be guaranteed – WTF?) are king only? This seems almost discriminatory to me. What if a patent and caregiver were traveling together? Are all disabled people single or married? Seriously!!!
    Also, I am going to call my event manager again, but if she still ignores me who do I escalate this to? I think I have the contact info of the person that is the head of meetings and events. Would that be who I talked to?
    Any suggestions appreciated!!

    1. blink14*

      It’s possible that the size of the bathroom and space needed around the bed, to accommodate for ADA space requirements, may make the room too small for double beds in the ADA rooms in this hotel.

      My suggestion would to find out if you can book two ADA rooms that are either adjoining or right next to each other, and get a guarantee from the hotel manager that the ADA rooms will be booked – there is no wiggle room there, they need to guarantee it or else you’ll take your business elsewhere in the future. I think this is more of a preference issue, to be in the same room, than an accommodation issue – unless the two help each other significantly and plan it so they don’t need to travel with a companion, but I feel like the board member probably would have mentioned that upfront.

      Now that you know this could be a problem, in the future I would check with a hotel first before contracting.

      1. blink14*

        To clarify – sometimes (always?) ADA hotel room bathrooms have to be made larger than non ADA bathrooms to accommodate for different types of showers, sinks, counters, etc. That and the space needed around a bed probably makes this hotel unable to provide ADA rooms that have doubles.

    2. Leslie M*

      As an event manager myself, I would advise patience: your event manager is probably waiting to hear back from people about different possible solutions. If I was in this situation, I would probably be contacting people higher up on the chain at your hotel, and/or reaching out to other hotels close by to see what they can offer in terms of rooms.
      IMO, if they just prefer to room together because they are friends, and not because the board member who uses a wheelchair needs another person to room with them for assistance, then two board members should probably each just have their own room for this event instead of sharing one (and the additional cost should be understood because it’s for an ADA accommodation). Hopefully as adults they will understand that you can’t always have it all, though of course I don’t know the environment and the players in your situation. Good luck!

    3. Boop*

      I work in the industry (though not ops) I would imagine it would be due to space. It’s probably difficult to have an ada room big enough for two beds when you have to take into account wheelchair use.

    4. zora*

      To answer some of your other questions, yes, you could escalate to head of meetings or even to corporate for the hotel brand if you can’t get any answers.

      But as for them sharing a room, I second the advice to ask the two Board members if they are willing to have two separate adjoining rooms instead of sharing first, because if the rooms don’t have space for two beds, I’m not sure what the hotel can do about that at this point.

      The thing I’m most worried about is that they said they can’t guarantee the ADA room. It is normal for a hotel to say that when booking, but when you are signing a contract, I would ask them to make an effort to guarantee an ADA room.

      And as blink14 said, I would also put this on your list of things to check before contracting with a hotel in the future. I can see how this would happen. ADA regulations don’t get this specific, so even though it does seem stupid to only have King bed ADA rooms, I can see how it would happen that way.

    5. BRR*

      I think the head of meetings and events would be who you talk to but I would give it a little more time. The event is next year and it’s only been 24 hours. Since hotels can have staggered schedules, I imagine it can take longer for people to hear back from their coworkers.

      I think I’m neutral on the double bed ADA rooms. Is it annoying? Absolutely. It’s an interesting question but I keep coming back to “ehh, it is what it is.”

      1. Ali G*

        Thanks all for talking me down :)
        The hotel ended up fixing everything! They gave them adjoining rooms – one ADA and one regular.
        I was little on edge about all this because OF COURSE this issue cropped up with one of my more snarky Board members. No one else has any issues, except for the one person that will make it a huge thing.
        Happy Friday to me and you all :)

    6. Ranon*

      I am surprised they have no rooms with double beds that are ADA. I’m not up on hotel regulations, but nearly every portion of the ADA that requires an element to be accessible requires a percentage of each type of element to be accessible, and a king vs. two doubles room is absolutely two different types of room. Either they got grandfathered in on a hardship exemption or they’re non-compliant. Of course, ADA enforcement is by lawsuit, so not much help right now!

  43. Snubble*

    I have begun a new job as a llama groomer, in a decidedly split team.

    On the one side we have three hard workers, of varying levels of speed and thoroughness, but basically here to get the llamas groomed and frustrated by the excessive wait times we have for new llamas.

    In the middle, we have Boy Blue, who eats hot chicken at his desk every day and doesn’t like activists or vegetarians and probably reads the Mail and thinks invading personal space is funny.

    And on the other hand we have Bella, the Affliction, llama manager. Talking to the Affliction is like trying to explain the internet to your gran who is very concerned that you should send your cheque recorded delivery when you pay the phone bill. Bella imagines your half of the conversation and doesn’t see why “Is this the right page?” isn’t a complete question. Bella doesn’t like foreign food, or quorn, or pickle that isn’t Branston. Bella mainly likes to gossip and spends half her day on the phone to various members of her family, usually to tell them off. She can’t keep track of anything on her desk, she can’t keep track of her emails, she can’t understand Outlook folders, her short-term memory is shot to pieces and she doesn’t have any interest in helping her team prioritise their workload to get through the backlog. She just want to talk about how disgusting the situation is and how them upstairs don’t give a toss.

    Reader, I share an office with Bella the Affliction, and it has only been six weeks and I don’t know if I can stand it.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Ouch, I kind of winced at the last sentence. I hope Bella isn’t *your* manager.
      Can you wear headphones? Ask her to take her personal calls somewhere else as they’re distracting?

      I loved your explanations!!

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 on the headphones!!! Or any ‘meetings’ that get you out of the office for a couple hours at a time…

      2. Snubble*

        She didn’t hire me and isn’t responsible for my probationary period, but she runs the team day to day. I’m in the same role as Boy Blue and the others, I just don’t know what I’m doing yet, so she’s very much in charge of me. Interrupting me is her right and privilege.

    2. Gidget*

      I don’t have any advice, but I loved your storytelling style. Good luck enduring Bella. Hope it gets better once your probationary period ends.

    3. On Hold*

      Can you get in with the hard workers at all? Would Bella be open to “oh, it seems like you’re just so busy with other stuff, could I ask Totally Acceptable Janet to train me on llama buzzcuts?”

    4. Mellow*

      “Bella mainly likes to gossip and spends half her day on the phone to various members of her family, usually to tell them off.”
      ——————-

      Awesome.

      You have my sympathy.

  44. Gidget*

    If any one has advice or tips would appreciate it. How do you deal with guilt about discussing longer term work assignments with supervisors and grand bosses when you know that you will not be there to oversee it? I am in this situation currently, we are planning for our next activity cycle but I hope to be gone well before then. No one here knows I am planning to leave because I think it would make things even worse here than they already are. So I can’t just explain the situation. Thoughts?

    1. downdate*

      This will depend on why you’re feeling guilty about it. Is it because you think you’re lying to them by acting like you’ll be there when you don’t plan to? If so, I suggest focusing instead on why you’re not telling them: they haven’t made a culture where it would be safe for you to tell them. Because it’s not safe, you have to look out for yourself.

      You also don’t have a committed end date, it sounds like, so who knows, you might be there. But whether you’re there or not there, that’s just the way jobs end up, people leave.

      1. Gidget*

        Yes. Definitely feels like an unsafe environment. My end date is contingent on getting into accepted into a specialized training program for a career switch. But even if I don’t get into that I will likely quit and move to temp work just for my own sanity. Frankly, even with a totally legitimate reason to leave I fear vindictiveness when I give notice .

    2. EddieSherbert*

      I would focus on *making sure* my parts of any projects or future plans are thoroughly recorded, components labeled, and all saved somewhere that is accessible to the whole department.

      I personally also try to make sure steps of tasks I do like.. quarterly… are recorded (this honestly helps me make sure I’m being consistent, and allows someone else to step in for me when needed).

      There’s no need to feel guilty either way, but you might feel better knowing all the resources are available to them.

      1. Gidget*

        This is helpful. I have been trying to excessively document and organize, but I could probably do an even better job of it.

    3. Filosofickle*

      I’ve dealt with this kind of guilt in the past by doing my very best to set them up for success.

      1) Think about what’s best for the company and help them plan for that, with or without you. Make sure plans/strategies are clear and resourced so someone else can step in. This is your final gift to them.

      2) That includes making recommendations to augment staffing, resources, and training if needed. (One I was the only one trained on some software. Over a period of months I repeatedly asked them to let me train someone else because I knew I was leaving. They never got around to it. I left feeling a little frustrated, but I did my best to fill that gap so I didn’t feel guilty. It was on them.)

      3) Remember, you could get hit by a bus, and the result would be the same. Anyone can be unable to do their job at any time. It’s their responsibility to plan for or adapt to employees leaving.

      4) Also, you may still be there. You hope not, but you could be. Engage as if you’re staying, because you’re there until you’re not. Sheryl Sandberg’s “don’t leave before you leave” is good advice.

      1. Gidget*

        Thanks. This is helpful. I am currently doing the work as if I will still be here (i.e. my email is on the public facing materials). I have so many suggestions for how this position could be improved, unfortunately part of the reason I am so eager to get out is because they aren’t actually interested in improvements. But putting a recommendation list together seems like a good idea.

        1. Filosofickle*

          That they aren’t actually interested should help with your guilt! You’re being a conscientious, constructive employee. If they’ve squandered your efforts, that’s on them. Keep reminding yourself of that.

  45. raincoatpocket*

    I have an interview coming up, and I’ve been given the questions in advance (which is amazing!). But one of them is asking about a ‘time you’ve lacked integrity in the workplace’, and I really have no idea what the best way to approach this question is. What are y’all’s thoughts?

    1. Combinatorialist*

      I think that is a dumb question. Hard to say if they want a real answer or a “I would never steal” type answer. I would probably think about what situations push my buttons the most at work (which often makes me act in a less than ideal manner) and then answer that question.

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Wow, that’s a pretty loaded question. Maybe a time you half-assed something? Something you can say “and then I learned that was bad and I never did it again” like a faux pas when you were younger? It really sounds like something that if you have an answer, they disqualify you lol.

    3. Gloucesterina*

      I would both prepare a response that voices your understanding of workplace integrity and instance where you supported workplace integrity and also ask for clarification at the interview. Perhaps something along the lines of “Before we jump into this question, I want to clarify our shared understanding about workplace integrity and make sure I’m offering you useful insights. I understand workplace integrity to mean XYZ. How do you understand workplace integrity at Company LLama Services?”

      1. Gloucesterina*

        To clarify, my inclination would be to think of workplace integrity as things beyond not stealing or not publicizing confidential or sensitive information, and think of examples of things that I did to ensure confidentiality, etc. But yeah, this question is a puzzler!

    4. CheeryO*

      What a terrible question. Definitely stay away from anything that makes it seem like you’d be obnoxious to work with, or anything that makes you sound too flippant. I have no idea if this applies to you, but I would probably describe a time that I didn’t follow policies/procedures to the letter because of some external factor (difficult personalities, something going on in my personal life, whatever). Nothing that could have had serious repercussions, but something that sounds honest and thoughtful, along with an explanation of how you learned from it. That’s a really tough needle to thread, ugh.

      1. Mellow*

        I like this. Sometimes, you have to be less than integrous for whatever reason; in my case, I was working on a project with two other people who couldn’t have cared less about it, and who were only too happy to have me do all the work. So I made decisions without them and submitted the work accordingly. Waiting for them would have meant sinking with that ship and I wasn’t going to do that to myself.

    5. CM*

      I would say, “I don’t feel I’ve ever lacked integrity in the workplace — to me integrity means things like not stealing or cheating or intentionally doing something wrong, and I can honestly say I have not done that in the workplace. But I will give you an example of a time when I didn’t handle a situation as well as I should have. …”

      2. Fortitude Jones*

        This is a good script to a really dumb question. No one’s going to answer this truthfully if they don’t act with integrity, and those of us who always do won’t be able to respond, so they need a new question.

    6. Kes*

      Wow. Honestly my reaction would be to say that I always try and act with integrity and I don’t really have a good example for that. What are they expecting, really. Sounds like a trick question to me, they’re hoping people who have acted without integrity will just admit it?

    7. Sue*

      How about: I snuck an extra share of the office candy jar and have regretted it ever since..or I contemplated doing it but snatched my hand back just in time to avoid the shameful act..
      Ridiculous question.

    8. NoLongerYoung*

      I would be tempted (but not looking right now, so I’m not desperate for a job), to ask if this question is based upon a problem they’ve had with previous employees, the company culture, or what job characteristic they are trying to screen for? It is such a truly awful question that it makes me think that they either don’t know how to ask, or pay poorly and so people feel entitled to pad expense accounts, take home office supplies, or otherwise be dishonest. Ugh. Sorry. You’ve had good advice; I’m just …. amazed. If they can’t do reference checks and screening enough to hire people with integrity, then asking the question is not going to screen out the scam artists or light-fingers.

  46. Amber Rose*

    Everything that could have gone wrong with my training presentation yesterday, went wrong. It was a disaster. *sigh*

    For starters, I had intended to set up 20 minutes before hand, but I was hit with a sudden unexpected bathroom emergency. And then the presentation laptop was locked and it turns out nobody knows the password, so I had to borrow someone’s laptop. And then I miscounted the attendees and was short paperwork for three people.

    All in all, I started like half an hour late and looked like an a-hole I’m sure. D:

    My question is this: I have “PRINT NAME:______” in size 20 font at the top of all the paperwork and still nobody ever writes their damn name. Or they write it in the top corner or some other weird place. What size font would work? 76? Should I bold and highlight it yellow and stick little sticky arrows pointing at it?

    1. Snubble*

      People don’t read instructions and you will need to verbally draw their attention to the name field. I find telling them the training won’t count unless they put their name on the quiz so it can be marked gets a pretty good success rate, but still not perfect.

    2. juliebulie*

      I don’t think any of those will work. Try adding a big empty box captioned “do not write in this box.”
      Seriously, probably the best way to force people to put their name in a specific place is to have such a cluttered page that there’s no room for them to write it anywhere else.

    3. CM*

      Maybe if you just have “NAME” instead of “PRINT NAME”? I found that a little confusing but maybe it’s just me being dense. Also, if you just have directions on paper, I would definitely say them out loud too — “Please make sure you write your name at the top of every page, you’d be amazed how many people don’t do that and then I might not have a record of your attendance.”

    4. ACDC*

      Have you specifically pointed out to the group during the training to write their name there? I realize this probably seems ridiculous given that you have “PRINT NAME” on the top of the page, but just mentioning it and waiting while everyone writes their name down at that moment could save you the frustration in the future.

      1. zora*

        This. I would try to make it like a light way to start the training. Say something like: The first test is really easy, so it’s a free 100 points for everyone: Spelling your own name! So let’s take a second and everyone write your name in this box here. [Wait]. Ok, now it’s going to get a little harder: [Start Training]
        or something like that.

      2. Amber Rose*

        I did. It was what I was doing while IT was trying and failing to break into the laptop.

        I am frequently ignored. *sigh*

    6. Mr. Shark*

      I would tell them before filling out any of the paperwork to please print their name in the appropriate location.

  47. bran muffin*

    Has anyone had experiences using a resume and/or cover letter writing service? What was it like and do you think it was worth it?

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I used one when I left a terrible job and thinking of writing down my job duties made me sick. I did a lot of research to find a legit company and it cost around $200, which was a burden at the time. But I was happy to have someone do the work for me. I used a company that called me to chat about my experience and I had to give the final sign off to complete the transaction.
      My writer used a lot of over the top formatting that I never used, and I would still go in and customize it for each application, but I felt it was worth it. They had some good prodding questions that got to the core of my job duties and really made a robust resume. And once I saw how it was done, I was able to write great resumes from then on.

    2. FormerFirstTimer*

      I used one once and it still took me six months to get a job. I had to redo a lot of it because it was waaaaaayyyyy too exaggerated. The cover letter they sent me was pretty worthless as well. I guess that’s what you get when you find the service through groupon???

    3. zora*

      I’ve only heard bad things about them, I wouldn’t do it. They usually don’t know what they are doing and charge way too much money.

      Use Alison’s resources to redo yours yourself, she really makes it easy!
      Use the categories at the right of this page: go to Resumes for tips on redoing your resume, and Cover Letters for advice on those. You really don’t want anyone writing your Cover Letter for you anyway, that is all about showing your personality and tellign your story yourself. A generic cover letter isn’t going to help you.

      If you need help, or this feels too daunting to do by yourself, ask around for a friend who will sit down and help you! Like, you can talk through things outloud while your friend writes them down. Or you can write things out and then ask your friend if those make sense or if you are missing something.

    4. WellRed*

      I’m thinking of doing this just to give myself a kick im the butt to get moving. I expect tp have to rework it, but having the framework done could be helpful.

  48. Junior Dev*

    I’m inheriting a software project from someone who left the company. It has a lot of technical debt and also, there are sometimes issues that manifest because one of the other applications, maintained by someone else, has incorrect data. A lot of people will come to me when they see the incorrect data and I’ve had experiences where, when I tell them, “the llama farm portal, which I maintain, is showing incorrect data because someone didn’t update the frog habitat database, which I don’t maintain, so you need to contact the frog team,” they’ll tell the frog team “the llama portal is wrong” without any additional context and the the frog team is telling me to fix it. Is there a way to short-circuit these interactions? I’m also just generally new to running a software project and there’s a lot of noise from people who have criticisms or suggestions that aren’t actually helpful or practical so it’s a lot to sort through.

    1. Junior Dev*

      To be clear, this is not just a waste of time for me, it’s also frustrating to the person who, from their perspective, probably feels that both the llama team and the frog team are saying “not my problem.” When it is in fact the frog team’s problem but that didn’t get communicated well.

    2. Combinatorialist*

      Can you just tell people you will look into and then contact the frog team yourself with the context?

    3. downdate*

      Document all of this in an e-mail and when you send it, put all the responsible parties on it. Highlight, if you need, an action item for the frog team to please fix x, y, z specific things.

    4. Brownie*

      Ooo, all the sympathy. I deal with that on a near daily basis and usually what I end up doing is writing it up in long-ish form detailing who’s responsible for which piece, then at the end say “I’ve cc’ed the frog team on this email so they know about the problem, but please feel free to reach out to them yourself to make sure this gets fixed.” The cc of the frog team in whatever I’ve written is the key because then they know exactly what I’ve told the client and therefore they use that email instead of whatever the client says.

    5. juliebulie*

      This is the kind of thing that is best dealt with in a meeting or conference call to discuss it in real time. Otherwise you’ll just have 10,000 unread emails that each push the problem one inch in a random direction.

    6. RJSJR*

      First, my sympathies, it’s a bad situation for you, your customers, and your company.While I’d definitely try to handle it yourself first, keep in mind that this affects your customers and your company so you may have to escalate, and document accordingly. Also be professional accordingly.

      So step 1: The next time you get a request from a customer relating to this issue, tell them that you want to help and need more information from them. Tell them the system is cross department and you may need to work with others, so they need to give you context, screenshots, whatever you think you need to nail down exactly what’s wrong. assure them that you’ll work with them even if it involves another department, you’ll stay involved and help them.

      Step 2: When you’ve got that info in an email, forward it to the person responsible for Habitat database and CC the customer. Tell the person who maintains Habitat that you think the problem is on their end, cite the evidence from the customer that supports your conclusion, and ask them to fix it or explain where they think the problem is and why. Remember they are your partner at this point, be supportive and cooperative. Insist the customer stays involved and request that if it’s just something they fix that they tell you when it’s done because you promised follow through to your mutual customer. Don’t allow the ball to be dropped just because the root problem is elsewhere, it’s impacting your product so you have a stake in this. In that same email, with the customer as witness, offer to help work out any problems arising from the connection between your systems – don’t offer to troubleshoot theirs, but if it’s the connection you’ll work together. Including the customer is important for several reasons, one being the fact that people are less likely to ignore you or be jerks if there are witnesses. Also ask your boss if he want’s to be BCCed since you’re new at this and may may want advice if it’s not resolved.

      Step 3: Create a file/folder/whatever to document this, hopefully you and your counterpart in Habitat can resolve this, but if not you’ll need to escalate (it’s costing your company) and you want reason and professionalism on your side. Track when each incident happens, how disruptive it’s been, and a summary of the interaction.

      Step 4: Hopefully this instance of data corruption is resolved, send an email to both your customer and the Habitat person confirming and thanking Habitat for his help, ask if there is anything you need to work on together to prevent future problems, point out that this is painful for all involved when it happens.

      Step 5: If that doesn’t get the problem resolved, send an email summary to Habitat and your boss explaining that your customer is still suffering and you can’t do this alone, request formal whatever is needed. In a separate email, tell the customer that the problem appears to be in the other department and you’re still following through, you’ll keep them in the loop. Follow through as necessary. Unless you have a really bad boss, they’ll help you navigate the inter-department hazards.

      Step 6: If the problem recurs, repeat the “Request information and then forward it all with explanation to Habitat”. Be prepared to do this at least a few times. Always include the customer in these communications, and if you have a way they could recognize this as a Habitat problem, mention it in each one. You want them to learn when to go to Habitat directly, and who to contact in Habitat, and you want a reputation in their eyes and advocating for them not just dumping it over the fence, they won’t know you are unless they see it. You also want them to know why some of your fixes are fast but these are slow. Your reputation, especially if you’re new in this position, is very important to your future success. If it keeps recurring, and costing your company each time, talk with your boss about formally requesting resources to fix or mitigate this. Use your file to point out when this has happened and how disruptive it’s been. Don’t place blame, approach this as we’re all part of the same team and we need to fix this for our customers.

      Good luck, it’s a sticky situation but it’s also an opportunity to make a real difference!

  49. DAMitsDevon*

    Hi, I was wondering if anyone has advice for what to do if someone who does not work for your company is potentially sexually harassing you or your coworkers? My office is in a WeWork, and someone who works for another company on our floor has been making a few of my coworkers uncomfortable. For instance, he yelled at one of my coworkers (who is a woman) to smile when she was making her coffee one morning. He was on friendlier terms with another one of my coworkers until she overheard him telling someone else about how she’s this hot girl who comes and talks to him a lot. She also overheard him continually asking a woman who doesn’t work for us if she was Hispanic because he thought she had a “Latin vibe,” even though it really seemed like she wanted to be left alone.

    I’m not even sure this is something that would count as sexual harassment if he did work for the same company, in terms of getting HR to take action. And the company he works for is leaving this WeWork after today. However, if something like this happened again, what would you do if someone who didn’t work for your company but was still in the same work space was harassing you or your coworkers/employees? My coworkers’ supervisor was also confused about what to do, and did not like the idea of some random guy making her employees uncomfortable. Would we go to his supervisor? The WeWork community managers?

    1. downdate*

      The WeWork community managers?

      I know nothing about We Work, but that’s what I’d suggest. Do they have policies about use of their space?

    2. zora*

      Go directly to the WeWork community managers. This is TOTALLY part of their job. They are supposed to handle the members in their space.

      And if the community managers in the office didn’t handle it quickly, I would definitely be going up the chain to WeWork management very quickly. I would not allow this around my employees, if I had to, I would be threatening to leave WeWork immediately if they didn’t handle this person. Tenants pay A LOT of money to WeWork for space, and part of what you are paying for is for them to make it a safe and productive space for all members.

    3. M*

      Yeah, probably the community managers. I’d have the most senior person in your company who’s willing to handle it and whoever handles the contract with them schedule a meeting (you want these people, because you want an underlying implicit “if this isn’t handled, this will affect whether we stay here”). They have location-specific terms of service, but this kind of conduct would be in pretty clear breach of any of them I’ve ever seen, and would be grounds for them to tell the other company to handle it, at a bare minimum.

  50. bassclefchick*

    Ugh. My manager made me delete all my rules in Outlook. Now my inbox is a mess and things that were sorted automatically now take me way too much time to deal with. I basically have a shared email that my entire team works in. If it’s not my turn for the specific tasks, I don’t want it cluttering my inbox.

    Not a question, really. Just frustration that what was very efficient and time saving for me has now become a big pain. Any one else have stupid “rules” that make you less effective at your job?

    3. China Beech*

      Why did you have to delete the rule of your own inbox and how did the manager “make” you? Did something critical not reach you due to said rules?

    4. Zephy*

      Also wanted to add: yes, I have had to deal with stupid rules.

      Once upon a time I worked at an animal shelter that partnered with local pet stores to place cats for adoption. My job was to get the cats from the shelter to the store. Our internal database had a report set up that would pull a list of cats that I had identified as being good candidates for the store – we had a lot of cats (~700 at any given time) and a lot of stores (increased from 4 to 21 in the time I worked there), and animals tended to move pretty quickly through our system, especially kittens. It was too much for a person to just keep in her head, or maintain a report that required manual updating. All I wanted was a way to be able to mark cats that I thought would do well in the stores, and see which cats, of the ones I had already evaluated and decided would be good to send out, were ready to go out…because that was my entire job. Other departments were allowed to use the software in the same way (generate a list of the animals that they needed to concern themselves with each day). Eventually the order came down from my grandboss, who was a glassbowl, that I could no longer use that report. I never actually got an explanation as to why, and I’m still pretty sure grandboss was being petty and flexing on my direct boss because, as I said before, glassbowl. Telling her no just for the sake of doing so.

      1. Delta Delta*

        This is about the only time in the history of work someone could say, “fine, then you figure out how to organize the cats.”

    5. downdate*

      Once upon a time — they may have removed this option in the latest version — outlook would let you set an option that a rule to run only on that computer. So that other people opening the account, it won’t run for them. Is that an option you can bring to your manager so that the rules only run for you and not anyone else?

      1. bassclefchick*

        It’s not a true “shared” box. We have a shared email address and that box automatically forwards to us individually. So, the rules I had were only on my machine.

    6. bassclefchick*

      I’m not really sure why. He probably thinks emails are getting missed. But, they aren’t. OK, he didn’t “make” me, but he said he doesn’t want us to have any rules. I was on vacation for TWO days last week and came back to an inbox with over 600 emails. Took me an hour and a half to sort them all.

      1. zora*

        This is bad management. He should not be micromanaging how people manage their own email inboxes. This guy is an idiot.

        2. Mr. Shark*

          +100

          I can’t imagine a manager worrying about an employees inbox.

          I’d put back the rules unless there was something specific that he thinks I missed. If he asks again, just tell him that due to the volume of e-mails you receive, there is no way to manage the load without having rules.

        3. bassclefchick*

          I have put some of the rules back. And when I’m gone for two weeks over the holidays, I will be putting more in place.

  51. Melody Pond*

    Folks who are more familiar with unions, strikes, and the like: What is the exact meaning of “cross the picket line”?

    This is in follow up to Alison’s short-answer question from earlier this week, where she said that non-union workers have the right to refuse to cross picket lines. Does this refer simply to crossing a line of people who are picketing? Or does it refer more broadly to working in/filling in for, any role of a person who is on strike?

    For example, if a non-union worker tells their boss that they don’t want to cross picket lines – can the employer get around this by simply sending the non-union worker to fill in for a particular strike role in a time/place where nobody happens to be standing outside picketing, at that moment? Or does this mean that the non-union worker is choosing to honor the intent of the strike overall, and therefore that the employer can’t send the non-union worker to backfill ANY strike roles?

    1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Crossing the picket line doesn’t just refer to the physical line, but more generally to any form of subverting the function of the strike. It can also refer to customers patronizing the business during the strike, if the business is still operating — with the same concept, that the point of the strike is to inflict economic harm on the business, in the same way that a business can inflict economic harm on employees by cutting hours, reducing pay, suspending w/o pay, etc.

    2. Alexander Graham Yell*

      I find the easiest way to understand it is basically: crossing the picket line is doing anything that keeps the strike from being effective. If a business can run smoothly and have customers while their employees are striking, there is no incentive to listen to their employees and negotiate with them.

    3. jack*

      I think you’re getting “crossing the picket line” and “scabbing” confused.

      Crossing the picket line – interfering with the strike in anyway BESIDES doing the work of the union employee. So a customer crossing the picket line at Kroger to buy food while the employees in the store are on strike OR an employee who is not part of the bargaining unit of the union going to work and continuing to do their normal tasks.

      Scabbing – a non-union employee doing the work of a union employee who is currently striking. So that employee from above stocking selves or checking out customers when that is not part of there normal responsibilities

  52. Perfect Attendance*

    I’ve had it at my job.

    Our forced ranking system differentiates zero calls in (excuses or unexcused) and 1-4 cal ins to the tune of a 20% difference in attendance score.

    We are a company with very low turnover. The difference between a day one person who didn’t call in a and a day two person who did call in is THIRTY SPOTS!

    There are employees around here that tout they haven’t called in fifteen years. While I’m sure there are people like this I find it amazing that they have never gotten a flat tire, needed to take their child in for an emergency root canal, or they needed to take ONE unplanned day off.

    Instead, these people have their schedule adjusted 1-2 times every month or two to come in later, come in earlier, leave earlier, etc. Each of these people do this about 5-10 times per year, all while keeping their perfect attendance.

    My issue is not why they need the day off. My issue is the perfect attendance.

    There is a problem with the system when a person calls in three times in a year because LIFE got in the way and followed the policies compared to the person who is also a good employee, but has their schedule adjusted to keep their perfect attendance. No harm is meant by it, but it does affect someone who called in once. ONCE!

    Do you have any suggestions on how to combat this? I want the perfect attendance portion removed if someone comes in later or earlier at their request. Or change the call in policy from 0-4 call ins. I have a real problem not thinking that people need to call in once or twice a year for whatever. To be penalized with a different schedule compared to the person who didn’t call in but had ten schedule adjustments simply isn’t fair.

    I asked how many schedule changes is too much. They weren’t open to the idea of having X number per year, because then employees would expect to have their schedule change. I get that.
    Please help.

    1. Yarrow*

      This seems crazy. People have lives. It’s weird because my partner just got fired for “abandoning their job” despite having called out in advance and discussed it with several managers. Their big boss just claimed they hadn’t called out “properly.” And they’d only ever called out twice in a year. It’s nuts. If you don’t think you’ll be able to affect a policy change at work, that frustration isn’t going to go away. I hate you have to deal with that.

    2. JimmyJab*

      May I ask what the ranking system means, practically speaking? Does it impact your reviews? raises? assignments? Perfect attendance is such a weird concept to me for a job.

    3. Junior Dev*

      Does anything material, like raises, depend on the attendance score?

      It’s pretty discriminatory (in an ethical sense) against working parents, people with disabilities, immigrants who have to make court dates, etc) to punish people for taking sick days, but I have no idea if it’s legally actionable in any way.

    4. Kes*

      I mean, I wouldn’t penalize the people who change their schedule, because I would think it is good for the company if they can plan for it in advance. The real problem here is saying that any call ins is a problem, because the fact is, sometimes life happens. So I would focus your energies on changing the policy to allow a couple of call ins

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Yes, I wouldn’t want to penalize people who get the schedule adjustments. Is that not something that you can do as well? I think that’s beneficial to be able to plan ahead and adjust your schedule, so I don’t know why that is something that is bothering you.

        The key idea is that this perfect attendance thing exists at all. I find it hard to believe that there’s such low turnover with such a lousy system. You call out once because you’re sick and you get lower ranked (whatever that actually means and however that impacts pay, etc.) It seems like that’s an unworkable system and overly constraining. I would hate that, and I know I wouldn’t last long at that job at all.

        1. Perfect Attendance*

          It impacts your schedule for the following year. Nothing to do with raises or anything.

          I’m all for helping your employees, especially the good ones. We all need a schedule change every now and then. But when a person calls in twice in a year is penalized more than the person who hasn’t called in in fifteen years but has 5-10 schedule adjustments in twelve months, I find something about that wrong. All the person did was follow the policy.

          My beef isn’t against the employees. My beef is against the policy. Life gets in the way. Traffic, car won’t start, etc. It’s a fine line because how many times is too much to adjust a schedule in twelve months for your best employees? Or any employees?

          The difference between no call-ins and one call-in is a 20% in your attendance score. It absolutely matters. And that’s my issue. One call in! Or even two! But the people who have their schedule adjusted (and we ALL have done it) don’t have to call in. What would happen if they didn’t get that adjustment for emergency surgery? Would they call in? That problem is something they don’t have to worry about.

          When the decent employees are legitimately sick part of them calling or not calling in is absolutely dependent on whether they can afford the knock on the forced ranking. That should never be the case.

          I also know that this could turn into a “no adjustments whatsoever” policy. Part of me is ok with that. Then those who absolutely needed that time off would use the call-in policy. One call-in shouldn’t matter in terms of the bid. Maybe even two. But it absolutely does.

          Again, please help.

          1. On Hold*

            I think trying to make life worse for everyone is really not the way to go here. I get that this feels unjust, but please try to avoid the crab bucket (I’ll put a link in a following comment).

            First, I would do your absolute best to take the same advantage of this system that other people do. I managed attendance for several years at my last job, and it was amazing – if someone needed to leave early because they felt sick, I *always* offered, “do you think you’ll be here tomorrow? I can sign you out so it’s approved if you think you’ll be out.” A huge number of people would turn me down… and then call out the next day. I still don’t get it. If the system offers flexibility, don’t try to destroy that flexibility (!), just – join them.

            Second, remember that even people who have flexed the system for a long time will likely run aground at some point, just as you have. Someday they will hit bad traffic, or will get food poisoning, or a pipe will burst at midnight and they will need to deal with it. Or, if they truly don’t – isn’t that it’s own suffering? If you’re pushing through and being at work when you really shouldn’t, for whatever reason, that’s comes at a cost. I think taking care of yourself is more important than any attendance nonsense.

            Third, from the outside, this sounds like a pretty small problem. I’m not trying to minimize because it’s clear you’re frustrated, but sometimes you wind up focusing on the small things when they aren’t the real source of the problem. Are you otherwise happy in your job?

              1. Perfect Attendance*

                And in terms of crabs in a bucket, its not necessarily “since I can’t have it, neither can you.”

                Its more of: “I was caught making a human error and was downgraded. No one has said a thing about your gum chewing for ten years, and you are rated #1. So I don’t think you can non-intentionally chew gum. But there you are. Chomping away. Everyone knows it. No one hides it. And no one does a thing about it.

                So yes, I’m the crab that did something wrong and was demoted for it. Next to me is the crab that is also doing something just as wrong that everyone sees and no one is doing a thing about.

                I think I have a right to be ticked off.

            2. Perfect Attendance*

              This is what bugs me. And this may sound petty, but with a forced ranking IT ALL MATTERS. All of it…

              I got dinged on my last review for making a $20 error. I count and deal with millions of dollars per day. Leakage happens. Not intentionally, but it does happen. As a result I lost the schedule I fought for. We are all guilty of it, but surveillance caught the mistake and I didn’t.

              I look around at those who are in the top 5 every year who get the schedule they want as they smack their gum back and forth in front of patrons, which is an absolute no-no. When confronted, they say its a cough drop, and then once their break starts they throw their “cough drop” away. Meanwhile you can see them chomping on the thing the entire shift. Immediate supervisors don’t want to say anything because they know how it will affect their forced ranking, so they leave it to the full shift managers who rarely see it because they aren’t on the floor as often.

              I made my mistake. Fine. It cost me my schedule. These people chomping their gum wouldn’t bother me, except for the fact that they are consistently rated in the top 3-5 out of 500 in a company. The department apparently has no problem with gum chewing. But human error? Whack.

              And THAT’S what gets me. I’m not #1. Never have been. Because I have called in once a year. And I have been written up for my human error, which is their right to do. But when someone is chomping on gum in front of guests while talking about how they have never had to call in and thank goodness for last minute vacation approval, I get a little sick.

              All this is a product of the forced ranking.

  53. I'm A Little Teapot*

    Interesting developments this week in my office. My big question: should someone talk to the VP to clue him in?

    1. There’s some pretty compelling evidence that the big boss really is completely clueless about what’s going on in the department. Staff thought this was the case but weren’t sure, but now we can rule out that he knows and doesn’t care. He’s truly just clueless.
    2. The AVP who’s been on and off driving me batty (she doesn’t know what I do, doesn’t care about what I do, yet hassles me on what I do) and has been verbally abusing staff for a couple months – has been spotted coming out of a meeting with HR and the VP. And her behavior has (thus far) been slightly better.
    3. A manager who is a snake appears to be attempting to cover his own ass by setting up one of my coworkers to take the fall for a systematic lack of oversight that the manager should have been providing. The staff is quietly banding together in support of that one coworker.
    4. A highly respected manager has given notice, and the team that reports to him is showing cracks. Up until now, they’ve been a non-factor in the overall discontent. Now, they’re worried. They don’t know who they will report to, and there’s a possibility that they’ll be asked to take on some of that manager’s work in addition to their already heavy workloads.

    And I’m working from home with a cold. I’m a very crabby sick person, so it’s best if I just avoid everyone until I feel better.

  54. Anonymously Fit*

    Hey guys! Any suggestions on how to weave in fitness instructor into a resume and LinkedIn? Currently, I work in the financial services industry as an analyst so totally unrelated. But at night and on weekends I teach circuit based group classes, boxing, and kickboxing. I even help organize fight nights, tournaments, and exercise marathons. I have fought myself for charity before as well.

    I don’t even know if it’s even appropriate to include on either, let alone how to frame it. If it matters, I teach regularly scheduled classes and am an official employee of a pretty well-known gym in my large city. I do feel like it demonstrates leadership, public speaking skills (maybe?), positivism, and interpersonal skills. Maybe even more so with the type of qualities like perseverance and focus the type of sport boxing requires. I do the whole spiel of coming up with a workout plan, compiling a corresponding, motivating playlist, and getting on the mic on a weekly basis.

    Appreciate any insight anyone might have!!!

    1. AndersonDarling*

      I’m an analyst and a massage therapist, and I keep my massage career off my resume unless there is something directly relating to the job I am applying for. I would add it as an “Other interest” at the bottom of the resume when applying for healthcare jobs.
      There can be negative connotations with fitness instructors…”Will they be judging my lunch choices? Harping on people to exercise more? Trying to get people to sign up for classes?”… so it may be best just to mention it during the interview. Then they have a good idea of who you are and it adds an extra layer of interest.

      1. CM*

        Agreed, I think it’s a good approach to mention it briefly under “Other interests” — you can say something like “Teach and organize boxing events,” and that could lead to a conversation during an interview. I think unlike massage, which could seem like an inappropriate topic to discuss at a job interview, your boxing activities could be an interesting topic of conversation. If it comes up, at that point you could bring up the leadership and public speaking aspects if they are relevant to the job.

    2. CheeryO*

      You could definitely add it to your LinkedIn under “interests,” but I wouldn’t get into too much detail beyond “fitness instructor at [gym].” I would probably keep it off the resume altogether. It’s something you could talk about in an interview if personal interests come up, but I think you run the risk of looking like you have your priorities out-of-whack if you give too much info up front, plus you never know what internalized biases someone might have against fitness-y types.

      1. Seeking Second Childhood*

        But organizing events is a big deal to people like me who find it stressful.
        Maybe list it under hobbies so they won’t worry you plan to take it fulltime?

    3. Mellow*

      If it helps:

      If I were hiring and read your resume’, I’d see your fitness classes and related interests as serious dedication to something important to you and that keeps you healthy and alert overall as an employee. I’d also see it as your having a good work-life balance.

      Include it, perhaps in an “Other” section, and consider incorporating it into your cover letter of possible, with specific wording as to how it relates to the job for which you’re applying.

      On a side note, I admire that line work, fwiw.

  55. 1qtkat*

    I received a rejection letter (by snail mail!?) from my dream job. It’s disheartening, and while it will take some time, I will recover and persevere.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      My way to combat the pain of rejection is to remind myself that it just wasn’t meant to be. You will be okay, you will find another great job that you’ll enjoy and thrive at. I’m glad you’re staying positive!

    2. 1234*

      Remember that there is no such thing as a “dream job.” I would shrug it off and apply to their competitors if that’s the industry that I want to work in. :)

    3. Leona*

      I was rejected from a job I *really wanted* a few months ago, and it was really hard to take. With some distance and after interviewing elsewhere, I realized it would have been a pretty bad fit. I think when you’re caught up in the application process it’s easy to feel like the job you’re going for is your destiny, and it can hurt a lot to be rejected. My hope for you is that with some time you find a much better fit.

    4. Watermelon M*

      Have you seen that Rihanna meme? My friend sent it to me after a job didn’t work out. She says “I have no need for revenge, I am no longer yours and that is punishment enough.” Maybe a littleeee dramatic for the current situation, but it’s become a mantra after some rejections.

  56. Bad Timing*

    I’ve been working for a large state university for the past two years, and I really love my job and coworkers. However, it is an entry-level position and pays accordingly. I have been planning to seriously start looking for a new job after our huge event is over in a couple of months, but when casually looking at university job postings, I saw one that looked really interesting and could be a good fit for me. It would also offer, at minimum, a 34% pay increase. I can’t decide if I should apply or not due to a couple of factors: 1) the timing. I would feel awful for leaving my current department in a pinch right before our huge event, which I play an important part in planning. We’re only an office of three, so that would severely increase the workload for everyone else; and 2) while the job sounds really interesting, it’s not completely related to what I thought I wanted to do next. It’s in technical editing instead of marketing/communications. I think I would enjoy it, but I’m worried it won’t set me up well for my next job. I am assuming the advice will be to apply anyway and see where it goes, but I would love your thoughts!

    1. House Tyrell*

      You’re right to expect suggestions to apply anyway! Higher ed is notoriously slow so it may take months to actually even start anyway, assuming you were given an offer to begin with. Plus, your office would have to figure out a way to move on without you if you were hit by a bus, or moved cross country with your partner, or any number of scenarios that might take you out of the event. You might as well throw your hat in the ring and see what happens.

    2. CatCat*

      Yes, I would apply anyway. #1 is not your problem. It is normal to want to make life easier for your coworkers, but not at your own expense. So go ahead and acknowledge to yourself, “Leaving before Event would be a challenge for my coworkers, but that is not my problem to solve.” You can feel for your coworkers while also not letting that hold you back!

      As for #2, applying does not commit you to the job. You will be able to research the matter more, think on it more, and, if you get an interview, ask pertinent questions that will help you make a decision.

    3. blink14*

      I also am at a large university in a 3 person office. Sounds like the role you want to apply for is within the university? I don’t see any harm in applying, if you have the background required for technical editing and you would find it interesting. I would not apply if most of your motivation is for the pay increase – you could end up getting the job and being stuck for a long time, or, applying without the background for technical editing and potentially have that reflect poorly on you.

      In terms of feeling bad about potentially moving positions before your big event – if you do apply to this new position, get as much done as possible at your current one for the event. If you don’t get an interview or you do and the job is offered to someone else, you’ll be on your game anyways for the event. But keep in mind that university job searches can take FOREVER and move really slowly. My office is experiencing this situation currently – our third person moved to another role within the university about 2 months ago. The job posting still hasn’t gone up because of delays with HR. We’ve been left with a ton of their work that they didn’t do (and should’ve been doing) plus picking up the tasks that they had taken on when hired. I personally found the way they left their workload in such shambles to be really frustrating, but had they been more on top of things well in advance (and I believe they knew that the job was theirs at least 1 month before they gave notice), then I wouldn’t be so annoyed now.

    4. downdate*

      Apply for it! Applying isn’t a commitment you’ll take it even if it’s offered, so you’re not committing to anything by applying.

    5. Lily Rowan*

      The chance that you’d make it all the way through a hiring process in less than a couple of months is so small! I wouldn’t worry about that part at all.

    7. Mellow*

      “I would feel awful for leaving my current department in a pinch right before our huge event, which I play an important part in planning. We’re only an office of three, so that would severely increase the workload for everyone else;…”
      ————-

      It’s wonderful that you have a conscience, but you have to think of yourself here. Apply for the position and see what happens. Should you get the position, your team will adjust to your absence. You don’t owe anyone but yourself your life plans.

  57. Off the Clock*

    I’m non-exempt and work a strict 9-5 schedule. My job doesn’t require me to stay late or work outside of those hours. Part of my job occasionally involves planning events that take place outside of business hours, but I’m not expected to actually work these events. However, these events are often free and open to the public or to everyone in our company, and sometimes I want to attend to see how things turn out or because it seems interesting.

    But when I do this, sometimes I feel like some of my colleagues treat me like I’m on the clock. I’ll get asked questions or asked to help out with small tasks like directing the caterer or putting out programs. And when I do stuff like this, it can encourage guests to treat me like staff instead of a fellow attendee, and I end up fielding questions. I’m not sure how to address this or where to draw the line. I’d feel silly refusing to answer simple questions like “Where’s the restroom?” or “What was the name of the person who handles the A/V system, again?” But I don’t want to go if it feels like an extension of my workday or like I’m doing unpaid overtime. Do I just need to not go to these events?

    1. Catsaber*

      Not going would solve part of that, but if you want to go (I can understand why!) you could do the following (disregard if you’ve tried these):
      – talk with your coworkers beforehand and let them know you’re off the clock and wish to be treated as such, citing that you’d have to get paid overtime for helping out and it would be illegal to not pay you for your time (it sounds like this is true if you are non-exempt, and invoking “illegal!” can be good for getting people to respect your off-time)
      – if the events have name badges and a different one for guests vs staffers, use a guest badge
      – dress as “non work” as possible – don’t wear anything that might resemble your coworkers’ clothes
      – try not to hang out where your coworkers are

      1. Massive Dynamic*

        Also hold a drink (alcohol not necessary) and if you can, bring someone with you like a partner, friend, etc.

    2. Four lights*

      That may have to be the solution.

      But first you could try- “just a heads up that I’m going to attend event. I wanted to let you know since if you see me I won’t be able to help out since I’m not on the clock.”

      And when you get there don’t help out. I mean it’s one thing if you answer a question, but definitely don’t do tasks. “Unfortunately I can’t since I’m not on the clock. We could get the company in trouble if I work without being paid.”

    3. CM*

      I think you need to proactively tell your colleagues that when you attend these events, you’re there as a guest. They’re probably assuming when they see you that you’re working, and it’s reasonable for them to assume that unless you tell them, “Hey, if you see me at an evening event, I’m not there working, I’m an attendee. So I’d really appreciate it if you could treat me like any other attendee. I find that if I’m asked to do tasks, it stops me from interacting with people and other guests assume that I’m part of the staff.”

    4. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      If it turns out you are genuinely needed at the events (that is, either you particularly or one or more additional members of staff than currently) then would you consider negotiating time in lieu? That is to say, perhaps if you work through the day and the evening event, you take the next morning off, or leave early that Friday.

      Otherwise I think the suggested scripts by other commenters sound very useful.

    5. Llellayena*

      Not sure you can (or should) avoid quick questions, but for anything else a nice cheerful “Oh, I’m a guest tonight!” might work. If you use this to avoid anything that makes you look like you’re working, you should also avoid other guests assuming you’re working as well. And do make a point to chat/network with non-coworkers when you’re there as a guest, it’ll help the image of being a guest.

  58. Former Usher*

    I have a job interview next week, but am starting to feel a bit worn out by the process. So far I have had a screening call from the recruiter, a call with the hiring manager, and a call with one of the manager’s direct reports. I am flying out for a one day on-site interview, but just found out that one of the interviewers can’t meet with me then. So I need to do a separate Skype interview with that person. So in total I’ll have burned one day’s vacation and had four other days disrupted. Is this the new normal for interviewing?

    1. Kat in VA*

      In one job interview process, I had:

      1. Screening call with HR (45m)
      2. Online IQ test (I loathe these) (15m)
      3. Second video call with HR (45m)
      4. Online test again, proctored so I wouldn’t cheat (I started getting annoyed with this) (15m)
      5. Third video call with actual person I’d have reported to (5m)
      6. Onsite interview, seven people – that was nonstop (almost 7 hours)

      This was for an executive assistant job. So yeah, it seems to be stretching more and more these days.

  59. Gloucesterina*

    Thinking about the work anxiety/depression letter, are there good articles or on how to cultivate a mentor and peer mentor network? (this would probably not be top of mind for that particular OP since they have a lot of immediate health and wellbeing needs to take care of first but could be helpful for others).

    Thanks!

  60. Bee's Knees*

    I think my boss is going to quit. And by think, I mean he told me that if things don’t calm down here on our shady circus built atop a newly opened hellmouth, (not exactly his words) he’s going to quit. That means that I’ll be running our two person department that really maybe should be three all by myself. Yay.

    Boss has been cranky lately, and I understand he’s under a lot of pressure. I get that. We’ve had yet another corporate overlord come to stay for the foreseeable future. But I haven’t had more than two minutes of his time for probably a week and a half now. Most everything I can manage myself, but it sure is getting hard to get the things I can’t done. And when I try and bring that up, in the politest way possible, he either dejectedly says he knows, and he’s sorry, or gets really huffy about how he only has so many hours in a day.

    I’m sorry. Everyone here is busy. I’m doing my job, parts of his that I catch falling through the cracks, and whatever the controller keeps finding me to do. I’m paid less than three times what my boss is. I will not shoulder the burden of his emotions as well. I will help any way I can, he just has to say the word. But he actually has to say the word, not just be frustrated that he has so much going on. I am not a mind reader.

    I couldn’t even get through typing this without something else being shoved onto my plate. I get to do another payroll audit, because some people don’t think it’s weird that even though they are supposed to get raises for a certain job depending on how long they’ve been doing it, they haven’t had a raise in two years. So I get to go through their timecards, week by week, and figure out what they were making when vs what they should have been. Yay.

    I need a day off. Of course, being non-exempt, I have to save what I have for when the plant closes for two weeks in a couple of months.

    1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      Oh man. You have all of my empathy and sympathy, this sounds AWFUL. If he quits, the flying monkeys just can NOT stick you with everything. Not unless they’re planning to pay you a lot more and hire you some assistants.

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Well, Boss said two weeks ago that we were going to talk about how to get me a raise (after they demoted me for non-performance based money reasons, which massively sucks) back to where I was. He told me last Wednesday that my eval would be last Friday. That’s the last we’ve spoken about it.

        And you and I might have to both just quit our jobs, buy a psychedelic 60’s van, and drive around the country vanquishing hellmouths.

            1. Kat in VA*

              Preferably the well-rounded, amazing, purple squirrels that HR seems to be holding out for these days?

    2. General von Klinkerhoffen*

      Please confirm you’re actively job hunting. Even if he stays, it doesn’t sound like it will get better soon (ever). What options are there?

      1. Bee's Knees*

        Unfortunately not. Even with the cut in pay, it’s not terrible for the rural area I’m in. I haven’t been here a year yet, and didn’t work in HR before this, so I need to stay a while for the experience. But mostly, I recently wiped out my savings, and there’s no guarantee that I could find something I’m qualified for making more than I am right now.

    3. On Hold*

      Can you brush up on Allison’s “Ok, if you want me to do X, I’m going to need to do less of Y and Z, or I could hand one of those off completely and do either X and Y or X and Z. Let me know what my priorities are” type scripts?

      I think you’re absolutely right to distance yourself from your boss’s emotions. He’s not wrong for having them, but you can respond with “Bummer. So about those teapot reports…” without getting any further in.

      Other non-committal redirects that I’m fond of:
      Hard times!
      Yeah, it’s been a hard week for me, too.
      Rough.

  61. Zephy*

    So, this week, my coworkers and I had to drive to a neighboring county for training with people who work at other locations. The training involved a pre- and post-test, and the people running it waited until the very end to reveal that the scores of those tests were going to be sent to leadership at our respective locations. ??! My site works differently than the rest of the sites – different clientele, different general business model – so most of the things that they covered in training work differently for us. We’re the only site out of about 20 who have this situation; rather than spend all summer doing individual training sessions at every location, they had four training sessions each attended by five sites’ teams. So, in addition to us on the Townsville team, we were in training with Metropolis, Gotham, Sunnydale, and Springfield, who all do things the same way the other 15 sites do. They decided that, rather than having a separate training for Townsville, or extending the training for Metropolis et al to include information that actually applies to Townsville, they would just pass that responsibility on to the director and assistant director to cover at a later date. Because I guess it’s OK for us to drive two hours to sit through information that largely doesn’t apply to us, but heaven forfend we waste any other site’s time on our frippery. Of course our scores are going to be abysmal, we aren’t trained that way and don’t generally encounter the situations outlined in the problems on the test (and because everyone else is and does, they did not go very in-depth with how and why in situation X the answer is Y). Luckily, my regional director is prepared to defend our scores to our PTB, but nobody can/will tell me what this information will be used for, why it’s important enough to involve leadership to such a high level.

    1. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

      Dang, I almost did that for this weekend!

      I am going from Minneapolis to northern MN for a German language retreat for a week, but my wife and exchange kid do not want to drive five hours each way! It’s very remote and I forgot to fill out a form to get picked up by the camp staff in the nearest town nearby.

      So I called the staff and asked if I could still be picked up- but if they hadn’t said yes, it would have been Uber/Lyft or paying someone from a community subgroup i’m in to drive me, rather than the Greyhound.

    2. Jaid*

      Dude, I haven’t had a training class that relates to my actual job in what.., a decade? It’s all “here’s an update, yo!”.

      All the training classes are geared for the CSR’s and I’m totally paper.

      Oh well.

  62. JustaTech*

    TL;DR: You may be able to use Lyft to reach your destination when the airlines give up.

    Long version:
    Friends, do I have a tale for you. Except I’m sure that many of you have already lived it, so the resolution’s the important thing. Last week I got stuck at the Chicago O’Hare airport due to weather between me and my destination in Wisconsin (next state over). The back and forth with the airline and planes was long and extra aggrivating, but not actually important to my story. The upshot is, there I was at midnight, no flights until late the next day, no rental cars, no buses (and I’ve seen Adventures in Babysitting, I’m not spending the night at the Chicago bus terminal), and I need to get to my conference in Wisconsin before the next morning.

    So I rounded up two other people from my flight (we’re all going the same place anyway, right?) and we split a Lyft. It wasn’t even that expensive (~$150 total, plus tip, split 3 ways). And yes, I did check with the driver before we got in the car that she was OK taking us that far. She said it was fine and not the first time she’d driven someone from O’Hare to Wisconsin. It was about a 3 hour drive (because of the weather).

    So, if you’re ever stuck at the airport and your destination is within “driving” distance and the rental cars are gone, it’s something to consider. Just tip like heck.

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Smart! I’m in that area of the country, and my friend who was flying in last week (during probably that same storm) literally landed over 4 hours late. It was awful picking them up at 2am at the airport when I had to get to work at 8am!

    2. OtterB*

      The science fiction writer John Scalzi had a post on his blog recently about something similar, taking a Lyft from Chicago to his home in Ohio when his connecting flight was canceled. As you did, he confirmed with the driver that the distance was okay, and he said he bought the driver a meal on the road and tipped well.

      1. JustaTech*

        That was where I got the idea! I also suggested it to literally everyone in the airline assistance line, and a few people ended up going with that.

    3. AvonLady Barksdale*

      I lived close to an airport was also the best option for a military community about an hour away. A lot of the Uber drivers were based in that community and drove people to the airport. They loved picking me up because I lived close enough that it didn’t take them too far out of their way home, so they got a fare for at least part of the return trip.

    4. Alexander Graham Yell*

      I think there was a football player that did this a year or two ago, too – except it was like a 16 hour drive and cost $800. Can’t be late to training camp!!

      1. Mr. Shark*

        Yes, he wanted to go to Buffalo, NY, and the Uber driver thought it was Buffalo Wild Wings in Chicago (I believe), but when he got in, they straightened it out, and the guy agreed to drive him to Buffalo. From what I recall, they became good friends.

    5. SomebodyElse*

      In case anyone else needs it… There are private car services as well as commercial ones that go between Wisconsin and Chicago… that are pretty inexpensive or comparable to the lyft charge.

      These flights get cancelled all the time. I think I’ve had more flights between the two cancelled than I’ve had completed.

      1. Dr. Anonymous*

        Isn’t there still a bus from Chicago to MKE? Doesn’t run in the middle of the night, but it’s cheap.

  63. New bag, who dis*

    Is my bag inappropriate?

    I work in a hospital in a pretty senior position. I’m female and 35 years old. I have a regular bag for work that I carry my purse, papers etc in but I sometimes also carry a bag with my gym gear to work. This bag is calico, over the shoulder bag and has printed on it “Good grammar is sexy”. I only carry it in at the beginning and end of the day and I store it in my office. Most of the time I carry it so the words aren’t visible but sometimes I forget and it’s possible that a couple of my colleagues may have seen the writing at times. I like the bag because of size and shape and because it’s easy to wash but I don’t want to seem unprofessional.

    Should I get another bag or am I over thinking things?

    1. Zephy*

      Has anyone said anything to you about it? If not, I wouldn’t worry.

      Do you drive to work, and could you just leave your gym bag in your car? I mean, presumably if that were an option you’d do that, but just in case…

    3. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I am female, about your age and in hospital management and I’d kind of side-eye someone carrying a bag that referred to anything as “sexy” at work, especially if they had to go through a patient facing area with it, personally.

      But it’d be more like me thinking “Hm, was that your only option?” and then forgetting about it, as opposed to the day I posted (in a locked post) on my personal Facebook that maybe a pink sparkly lanyard proclaiming yourself “Queen B*tch” wasn’t the best way to be sporting your work badge at all, let alone when you were in a meeting with the VP of finance.

    4. Spargle*

      I, a woman, would personally not want to carry anything into my professional environment that says “sexy”. If you drive, can you leave it in the trunk of your car? If not, I mean – you do you, but I would find a different bag. It’s not the calico, it’s the “sexy”.

    5. Kiwiii*

      I don’t think it’s inappropriate, but depending on your office environment it might look like a weird judgement call or just plain juvenile (which like, would totally by WHY some of my coworkers would carry exactly that bag, but our culture is Very casual and pretty nerdy). Keep in mind, when deciding officially for yourself, the way your coworkers have reacted to other things in the same vein and if you’d mind that they reacted like that to something you’re carrying. You may ultimately decide for yourself that it doesn’t matter to you in the slightest what they think of your bag.

    6. Mr. Shark*

      NAW, and I don’t have purses/bags, but I would think it’s funny because it’s about grammar, so I don’t think I’d worry about it if I were you. If someone complained, then that’s one thing, but otherwise…eh, people need to get over it.

      If it said something besides “grammar” that was more risque, then I can see your concern.

    7. Rexasaurus Tea*

      I’m leaning toward overthinking, but I’ve always worked in a pretty casual industry (software development) so my calibration might be different.
      Is there a way you could drape a sweatshirt or something over it so that it hides the words? although now that I’m thinking about that, I guess it would depend on the shape of the bag, so possibly not a helpful suggestion.

    8. LilySparrow*

      Totally overthinking. It is a silly joke that isn’t even racy, on a calico bag. How much more demure can you get?

    9. On Hold*

      If you are more interested in the shape/size of the bag and less interested in the words, could you cover the print with a patch? Iron-on would be permanent, but sew on or safety pins (if punk is your thing) could be removed pretty easily down the line.

  64. Lizzy May*

    I have a coworker, Julie, who has been in this position since March. She came from a different department within our large organization. Her old job was at a lower job level and the expectation was that the staff that she supports gives direction before she does any client work. In my job, at a higher level, we are expected to manage client work and have things mostly ready for the staff we support. We only need explicit instructions for a few, clear processes.

    Julie has daily freak outs because she doesn’t like the level of instructions she is getting from those she supports or that she’s being followed up on work that should be self-directed. It always involved mumbling, complaining, stomping around and sighing. I have tried to explain that this role is very self-directed and those follow ups and directions are normal and if she has questions to ask me or our coworkers or the person sending her the directions and once she has more experience, she’ll have a better system to manage the work but no matter what I say, the complaining and muttering continues.

    We had an off-site supervisor, who stepped down in the summer and hasn’t been replaced. Our grand-boss is on maternity leave. I don’t really want to flag something like this to our great-grand-boss because that seems very unfair to Julie but also her behavior is disruptive and isn’t changing after months. I feel for Julie; she isn’t getting any coaching, has few resources for help and is used to a very different system but I’ve also tried talking to her several times and am always available to help. I’m not her boss in any way and I don’t want to cross a line. I just want the complaining to stop. Any advice for solutions I haven’t thought of?

    1. Colette*

      Is she complaining to you or around you?

      I think either way you can ask her to cut it out. If it’s around you, something like “Can you keep it down? I need to get some work done”. If it’s to you, “You’ve mentioned this before and I’ve told you what is expected in this role. Do you have a specific question about how to do the work?”

    2. fposte*

      It sounds like you’ve been talking to her about her frustration, but that you haven’t actually addressed the problem of her noisy disruption. Is that true? If so, I think you can say “Julie, I know you’re frustrated, but the noise is a big distraction for me. Can you hold that down until break time?”

    3. OhBehave*

      If she’s been in this position since March, she has had enough time to learn at least the basic procedures. Given the upheaval this summer, it’s somewhat understanding that she’s having a hard time. You’re giving her a lot of leeway here in saying she has no coaching, etc. due to two people leaving but she’s still had maybe 3 months with supervision.
      The next time she starts throwing a fit, say “I understand your frustration. We’ve talked about the details of how this job works. You may not realize this but you have this same reaction on a daily basis. This is distracting to me and I need it to stop. I’m always here to help you.”

  65. AJK*

    A little vent, but if anyone has any advice that would be helpful, I’d love to hear it!
    I would really like to like my job. I have liked it in the past and I know I could truly love it, but I’m stuck in a giant rut and I don’t know what to do.
    I am absolutely bored to tears most days. I support several teapot specialists and I’m dependent on them to give me work, but they seem to forget I’m here most of the time. I can’t do much without them, and what I can do certainly doesn’t take more than maybe an hour or so a day. I have attempted to try to work out procedures so there’s a steady flow of work, and everyone says “Yes, let’s do that!” and then they don’t do it. And I have no power to make them do it. The teapot specialists come and go pretty regularly and every time they do I have to start all over again. The one teapot specialist I was hired to as primary support to shifted to another position last year and they still haven’t filled his old position, and at this point I don’t think they’re going to.
    I brought this up to my supervisor twice and she told me to “figure it out for myself.” And I haven’t been able to, which makes me feel like a miserable failure – if she thinks I can solve this myself, then how come I can’t figure out how? Like I said, I have no power over the teapot specialists. All I can do is tell them what I’m able to do and then it’s up to them – I can’t make them do anything.
    Our office is very casual and… loose, for lack of a better term? Everyone just kind of does their own thing. We’re a non-profit, also, so recently they brought in a volunteer who is connected to lots of the people in the community who donate to us (or who we would want to donate to us) and a good portion of the work they give her could be done by me, and the fact that everyone is just fine with an unpaid, untrained volunteer doing parts of my job feels really disrespectful to me – like I’m not necessary and the work I put in to become a Teapot Support Specialist means absolutely nothing to the management here. Like they figure any idiot can do this job. And I can’t say anything, because, again, this volunteer is very well connected. So she’s doing a good portion of my job for free while I sit here doing very little. And, you know, I sort of need this job to eat and pay bills.
    I love my coworkers and I love what this job could be, if only they’d actually let me do it.
    I’ve thought about job searching, but I have ADHD and anxiety and this job has been so wonderful about accommodations for those issues. I’ve had jobs in the past that were not so accommodating, so I have some level of workplace “PTSD,” and I’m terrified of losing those benefits. Of course, I’m also terrified that someone will suddenly figure out how little I do and lay me off, so there’s that. But I’m scared that if I leave and get another job, it could be at a place that is not at all understanding and I’ll fail miserably – which is what happened at the last job I had before this one.
    I feel like I should be able to figure this out, but I can’t. At one point a few years ago I did have a Teapot Specialist who was experienced in working with a Teapot Support Specialist, and so for six months or so this was a dream job – but she left, and ever since then it’s been torture to know what this job could be like, and I just don’t know how to fix it.
    I just don’t know what to do, or even if there’s anything I can do. I feel like I’m stuck in mud and being pulled down further every day.

      1. AJK*

        Not really, not for myself. I could absolutely track things for my Teapot Specialists (and I’ve done it in the past) and I’ve offered to do that for my current Teapot Specialists, but no one has taken me up on the offer. My current Teapot Specialists are really inexperienced – they barely know what they’re doing yet, and they get overwhelmed. I’ve told them that my job is to help them be less overwhelmed, but I think that’s just one more piece of information that goes in one ear and out the other.
        What would be wonderful is if we hired another experienced Teapot Specialist who already knows they don’t have to do everything on their own, but I don’t see that happening.

        1. Kiwiii*

          Can you offer to do a specific task for them regularly? Like “I can gather all the data for the handles project so that you don’t have to spend the time looking for it” or “let me set up the document and run X process when you reach that step so you can focus on Y, I’d be happy to do this step every time”

          I wonder if framing it so that you give specific examples of how you can help them and why they should let you might help. I know that I would definitely not know what to do with someone who said they could help me be less overwhelmed, but I didn’t know what they could specifically do to do that because I don’t know enough about my job yet. If they don’t have enough context, you might help in giving them context.

          Another suggestion is that perhaps you could grab your favorite or the least experienced teapot specialist and ask if you could walk through a project together step by step, and point out to them where you would previously do portions of work on other projects and state that you can do that for them this time around because it’s literally your job to and that it will save them time.

    2. LQ*

      Have you offered to support the volunteer by peeling off some of the stuff they are doing? If they were brought in for connections I’m guessing the parts you want to be doing are not building and supporting those connections. So you can frame it as, hey, let me handle this load so you can do more of the connecting to the community stuff.

      1. AJK*

        Well… that’s what I thought, when they first brought her on, that she would be great help in that area. As it turns out, Volunteer once dreamed of being a Teapot Specialist and wasn’t able to achieve that goal since she had to work in her family’s business. So she wants to do Teapot Specialist work, which she can’t (not legally, anyway). The work I do is apparently the next best thing.
        Our ED still wants to make her happy so she’ll say nice things about us to her connections, so Volunteer gets to do whatever she wants.

    3. Hope*

      With all the extra time, can you be doing any kind of professional development–learning new computer programs, reading publications in your industry, etc.?

        1. Gumby*

          Yes, I would definitely suggest Lynda or similar for this.

          I used to do that during down times but, alas, I am shortly to lose access since my public library is not renewing their subscription due to privacy reasons. (LinkedIn is apparently requiring fuller info on users even through libraries and my library system is one of the ones that decided to not even keep your borrowing history so that they could not be compelled to hand it over by subpoena. Yay, library! But also? I’m going to miss my free Lynda access.)

    4. A. Traveller*

      Is there any chance that you could use the down-time to educate yourself to become a teapot specialist yourself?
      Would your workplace advance you, if you took that route?

      1. AJK*

        It would require a very expensive degree, and unfortunately it’s not one I can get without either quitting or working very part-time. I actually chose to get a Teapot Support Specialist certification when I graduated so I could work in this field without the debt that would come from the extremely expensive degree. But the trade off is that there are limits to what I can do sometimes. The area I happen to be in is more dependent on the Teapot Specialist than some other areas are. Some Teapot Support Specialists have a lot more independence, I just happen to be in a position where I’m really tied to whoever my Teapot Specialists are.

    5. On Hold*

      Here are a couple of somewhat disorganized thoughts:

      – Training documentation for the Teapot Specialists: “What to Hand Off to your Teapot Support Specialist”
      – Grab them in 1-3 person groups and do training with them: this is me, this is what I do, this is what I can do for you. Doing this maybe 1 month in, so they aren’t quite so overwhelmed and have started to settle, but before they’ve really built routines for their work?
      – How much are they in the office? Can you spend time (coffee run, lunch break, etc) with them, and when they start talking about work, use that as an opening? Them: “Blah blah blah overwhelmed by teapot reporting blah blah” You: “Oh, I can help you with that, that’s actually part of my role here.”
      – How much are you putting yourself out there? Is anything they do on a regular schedule? Like, if they have reporting needs every Friday, could you ping them on Thursday and ask if anyone wants that report run?
      – Is anyone more open to this than the others? If you can get in with one, they may be able to help create a sea change in the team.
      – How is the team structured, and do they have a single manager? Can you get the manager on your side and helping direct them your direction? If it’s the same manager who told you to figure it out for yourself, could you go back with a specific plan of action and ask for her support? (Some managers would be more open to acting on a plan that you came up with, versus the much bigger ask of “solve my problems”)

      Good luck! Being bored at work sucks ass.

  66. GigglyPuff*

    I have an interview using Zoom coming up, is it like WebEx where I just have to download a plug-in? I don’t have to download software or sign-up for anything like Skype, correct? Thanks.

    1. 1234*

      It’s similar to GoToWebinar (not sure about WebEx) but once they send you the meeting invite, you can click the link to make sure everything works. There’s no software and there’s no sign up. You may have to sign in with your name but that’s it.

    3. On Hold*

      You can download a little program and run it, or you can join from the web portal. It doesn’t like Firefox very much, so I recommend using Chrome. You can’t do a screenshare from the web portal, if that’s important – that can only happen on the downloaded version.

  67. Ughhhh*

    I applied for a job I am quite interested in a few weeks ago, and yesterday (Thursday) morning at 8:20 received an email from their HR requesting a phone screen today (Friday) at 8:00 AM. I confirmed that I could make the call, even though it is on the early side for me. The HR rep also requested that I send a brief summary of how my experience is a good match for the position and answers to 7 additional questions (some open-ended) by the end of business yesterday. I ended up spending all morning preparing the summary and answers to these questions, and I prepped for a few hours last night for the phone screen. We had a significant and somewhat unexpected weather event in our city yesterday, but that was not even in my mind as I prepped. Well this morning I woke up early, got myself psyched up and all ready, and the call never came. I figure the HR rep did not come in to work today after yesterday’s weather event, and I hope he is OK. But I’m a little peeved at the urgency of this whole process for a (hopefully rescheduled!) phone screen, and the fact that no one bothered to tell me the initial screen was canceled.

    1. downdate*

      This sounds like a couple light-red flags. Not that they didn’t contact you when there’s a bad weather event and may have RL issues. But the short turn around, wanting questions answered for a HR phone screen. HR phone screens shouldn’t be like that. That’s actual-interview stuff.

      1. Ughhhh*

        Yeah, I don’t fully understand. I was told by a contact who works in the same position for this company to “be ready for the phone screen” and that the people doing the screen give their feedback to the hiring committee as well, so it could be part of their unique “process.”

        It’s definitely making me sour on the opportunity a bit, though, because that was very demanding and took me away from half of a day’s work yesterday, with zero notice :-/

    2. TL -*

      Ugh I just had to answer written questions before an interview (which were already answered in the cover letter!)

      I just upped my salary expectations, to be honest.

      I hope they get back to you with appropriate apologies!

  68. Coworker that brought muffins*

    I finally got past my imposter syndrome and scheduled a meeting to ask for a raise that’s more than a cost of living raise and a better title. I got the title but not the money.
    Even so, I’m so proud of myself for doing that. I was confident and prepared and my anxiety didn’t get the best of me. Despite the rejection, I felt respected and listened to. Also, the title is great and opens me up to more (better paying) opportunities in the future.

    How long until I start using this title on my LinkedIn and job applications? It’s the same position just with a title that better reflects my responsibilities and that I’m not entry-level.

    1. juliebulie*

      Is there some reason you think you need to wait before you can use your new title? Unless you were told that it doesn’t take effect until October 1 or something, it’s yours now and you can use it now.

      1. Coworker that brought muffins*

        I meant to tell prospective jobs that I am this new title. Have I been it this whole time and I’m just getting the recognition or would it be false to say I’ve held this position (using new title) for x months?

        1. juliebulie*

          Ooooh I get it.
          Normally you put both titles, and the dates for each one. That shows that your employer thought enough of you to promote you (or at least give you the appearance of having been promoted). For that reason, it’s actually better than showing only your new title even if it’s retroactive to your start date.

  69. Cosmos Blossom*

    The universe is being very funny right now.

    Every single time I think about resigning or find a job that’s a good fit for my skills and experience, a new and exciting project comes along in my current office that I get to be a part of. It’s like the Job Gods really, really want to keep me here.

    And I’m starting to feel like I should listen to them and just suck it up. I have pretty great benefits, and my salary’s high enough that I can save a substantial amount every month. The only thing is I still don’t feel “comfortable” in my current position even after one year.

    I’m striving to change that mindset daily, and I hope to be able to get in the zone (as it were) and be a great enployee here.

    1. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

      In a similar situation. Current job has good flexibility and decent work environment even though some things could be better (communication, that 1 employee, etc). Still has decent growth opportunities. I’ve committed 90% but still keeping an ear out.

  70. Sydney Ellen Wade*

    I’m chatting on Monday with someone who works at my favorite company. I reached out to her asking for advice on how to break into the industry. Any recommendations for questions to ask about the company and the industry without making it seem like I’m begging for a job (even though I’d love to work there)?

    1. Cap. Marvel*

      If she’s in a position that you would like to have, I would ask how she got to where she is now.
      How did she break into the industry? What jobs did she have before she started working at XX? What sort of experience/knowledge does she think is necessary for being successful in that industry? What is her favorite/least favorite thing about working for that industry/company?
      I personally wouldn’t be uncomfortable telling her that she works for a company that aligns with my values/interests and that I want to learn more about what kind of experience they’re looking for or need. Also, what do you want out of this chat? Do you want to learn more about what she does, what kinds of projects they work on, etc? I think once you figure out what you want out of it you can think of more questions.
      I think as long as you’re not sliding your resume over and saying “pass this along to your hiring manager,” you should be fine.

  71. Work and mind*

    How do you balance work and therapy? Specifically when you have regular appointments for therapy that take up half a day every week? Does your workplace accommodate weekly appointments? Do you scale back?

    1. Four lights*

      It’s a doctor’s appointment, so it would depend on your available sick time. That sounds like a lot of time, so you could run it by your boss. You don’t need to say therapy, just that you have a standing medical appointment. Maybe this could be an FMLA issue?? Not sure about that.

      1. Natalie*

        It certainly could be covered, if you otherwise qualify for FMLA (large enough workplace, long enough tenure as an employee). FMLA allows for “intermittent” leave, which can cover things like regular appointments. One half day per week should be well under the 12 week entitlement.

    2. zora*

      I was lucky to find a therapist that does evening appointments.

      But if I needed as much time as you mentioned, I would definitely reach out to your HR about whether you can apply for FMLA for regular medical appointments. Or find some sympathetic person above you to help you talk to management about it. You manager is ideal, but if you don’t think they would be sympathetic, I would find someone else who is above your level, and can help navigate the right people to ask.

    4. Bex*

      I picked a therapist very close to where I work, and scheduled my weekly sessions for the day of the week where he had a 4pm time slot available. So, I have to leave at 3:50 instead of 5pm once a week. But I also have a lot of external meetings, so I’m in and out of the office most days, and I’m not even sure anyone notices that I’m out every Wednesday before 4pm.

  72. IStealPens*

    So I applied for this job as an HR manager this week, but one of the required fields was my college graduation date. I put the earliest date possible, then in the comments section I basically lectured them on all the risk associated with making that a required field. Needless to say, its obvious why they are looking for an HR Manager. Needless to say this red flag will probably not result in any further discussions.

    And as an HR pro, having been involved in the process of choosing an HRIS/ATS system, there is CONSTANT talk about the candidate experience. Pretty much every application, even though it allows you to upload your resume, still requires you to add all your experience into the system. Given some of the complex AI features on many of these systems (seriously – they are doing some ultra-cool crap here, and i don’t just think that because i am a bit of a tech nerd), its amazing to me that they still require this. I know it has to do with loading the skills database, but it should be done on the back-end using the loaded resume and a search for keyword within said resume.

    Anyway, I will continue to laugh in EVERY single meeting where candidate experience is mentioned.

      1. Sarra*

        Asking for a college graduation date gives them an idea of how old the applicant is, which can lead to age-based discrimination.

        1. Mellow*

          Really?

          I take it as gauging how updated someone’s knowledge is. In my field, my degree is 13 years old, and while my on-the-job experience makes up for that, the program in which I earned my degree has changed its coursework requirements in many ways, including what’s core and what isn’t.

          It’s impossible to know how old a person is just by the date of the degree in question. As such, the notion that the question could lead to age discrimination is a bit of a stretch.

          1. Kat in VA*

            Well, unless you’re like me and don’t have a college degree (started working at 17, long boring story of parents divorcing and needed to, like, eat) and putting in your high school graduation date most definitely narrows down your age to within a year or two for most of us.

          2. fhqwhgads*

            The vast majority of college students are within a certain age range. Are there older students? Sure. Are there occasionally younger students? Sure. But if you’re aiming to discriminate against anyone over 40 without doing anything to overtly suggest you are, knowing someone graduated 20+ years ago is generally a very good way to guess. It isn’t a stretch. Sure, some people might be more interested in “up to date knowledge” but if you’ve been working in the field…you should have that. So knowing the year someone graduated generally isn’t useful info unless you’ve got someone who has been out of the field for quite some time and is going for the job based only on their education…or if you’re making assumptions about how old they are.

      2. LilySparrow*

        I’m guessing that the graduation date is a proxy for age, and therefore enables (or gives the appearance of) age discrimination.

      3. Flyleaf*

        Asking for the graduation date is a proxy for asking for age. Potential employers should not be asking the age of applicants.

  73. overcaffeinatedandqueer*

    So, I am out as non-binary and using “they” in most of my life, but not at work. Work for me now is stable for the next few months, but I have not landed the permanent position I want yet. But it’s hard to hear myself referred to as “she” all the time (out as a cis lesbian).

    I‘m an attorney. So it’s a conservative field already (gay state justice appointed for the first time ever a few years ago). Even my non-binary former classmate who is the most “woke” person I know, isn’t out at her firm, and another contact is MTF and didn’t get as much work/respect/had difficulties after she came out. There are also no gender neutral bathrooms where I am so I do not wish to cause an issue there, and I am only average at work. So I am not sure if I have the capital to push this.

    My state protects sexual orientation and gender identity, but I know that doesn’t prevent firing or not getting work. I guess I was spoiled for a while this summer when I went to support for my anxiety- given the circumstances respecting others was very important so everyone tried very hard not to use the wrong pronouns.

    I am not the type of person to yell or escalate complaints or whine if someone gets pronouns wrong, unless they have a long pattern of doing it deliberately. Even when I ask friends, I only ask that they try.

    I don’t know, people.

    1. Yarrow*

      I’m sorry you’re dealing with getting misgendered at work. I don’t have any good advice for you because every situation is different and you may be right that your workplace will be tough to deal with. My BFF is nonbinary and came out at work a few years ago. They’d worked there for years and people seemed to adjust well enough. They went from using “she” to “he” at work for reasons of simplicity (they are masculine-leaning), but “they” is correct and that’s what they expect in their personal life. It hasn’t been easy for them, but they are more outspoken in general. Is there anyone at work you’re particularly close to who you could discreetly float the idea to?

    2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

      Same hat. Emphatically same hat. I’m in finance, not law, but that’s also a pretty conservative field, and one where it’s difficult enough being an AFAB person, let alone trying to add non-traditional behavior, pronouns, or other ways of being on top of it.

      I’ve got no advice, but sympathy brofists.

    3. On Hold*

      Sympathy. I’m in an aggressively not-conservative company (as of 2 months, woo!), but my presentation/pronoun situation is unusual enough that I’m not comfortable being out at work. It’s really hard and I feel you.

      Would life be any better as inside council for a liberal company, instead of working for a law firm? You would get more of the company culture, rather than conservative legal culture.

  74. Trauma survivor in the workplace*

    CW: Active shooter drills

    I work for a large government organization that has decided to conduct active shooter drills at all office locations. I have a history of gun related trauma but am not currently seeing a therapist.

    I asked my boss if I could be exempted from the training based on my history, and she was incredibly sympathetic and scheduled the drill for a time when I would not be in the building. But she was just informed that the drills are mandatory for all staff and that anyone not attending the drill in their own building would be required to attend one in a different office. She’s trying to push back with her own boss, but he’s still several layers down from the actual decision makers so I have no idea what can be done.

    What do I do? I can’t go to the drill. I can’t. Just sitting here thinking about it is speeding up my heart rate and I think I might cry.

    2. Trauma survivor in the workplace*

      I’m checking my insurance company’s online portal to see if the skype/online doctor program includes mental health. I don’t know if this is a thing a standard GP’s office will do.

      1. Sharkie*

        You can always ask. Some mental health places are flexible, not to be too pushy but did you have a doctor after your experience? They might able to vouch and write the note.

        1. Trauma survivor in the workplace*

          The person I saw before was my school’s social worker. He’s retired now and I’d be shocked if the school had any records.

    3. downdate*

      Major sympathy. I got out of mine by calling off sick that day. I really wish people running these things thought a bit more about how and why some employees Do Not Want.

      Are they taking attendance? If so, can you be there for the attendance bit and then leave?

      1. Trauma survivor in the workplace*

        Our service area is really large, so we have a lot of smallish offices with low numbers of staff (I think our largest office only has 20-25ish employees). I can’t think of how I can leave without it being really obvious that I’m not there. And if I miss the one at my worksite, it sounds like they’d require me to attend one somewhere else.

        1. downdate*

          Say really loudly that you have to take an urgent conference call, so sorry, there was a conflict? With your manager to back you up, it might work?

    4. Brownie*

      I was mysteriously sick for the first mandatory drill, then couldn’t go to the next drill (with manager approval) because I was working a severe production issue, then had a “doctor’s appt” (I went to the coffee shop) for the third drill, then there weren’t any more scheduled for this year so I’m off the hook until next year. If you’ve got PTO you can use then I’d suggest using it and timing it so that a 1 hour “appointment” means you won’t be able to do the drill. Talk to your manager, see if she’ll put you on a “critical” (as designated by her) task that prevents you from attending the drills as well. If your manager is willing to back you up on this you’ve got a strong ally who can help you find ways of getting around the mandatory designation if it turns out there’s no opt-out available through normal channels.

    5. CheeryO*

      Hopefully your boss’s pushback will get results. Do you think you’d realistically get disciplined for missing it? If it were me, I would call out sick, and then call out sick again if asked to attend one at another office. I know that’s immature, but sometimes you need to draw your own line in the sand.

      1. Trauma survivor in the workplace*

        I honestly have no idea if they’ll be disciplining people, but our upper admin have been cracking down hard on some disciplinary stuff this year, so I don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility.

    6. MarfisaTheLibrarian*

      Is there a way to contact the decision-making people? Or, more likely, HR? I don’t know if this falls entirely under ADA, but I bet a good argument could be made for it, and it’s possible that if you reference the specter of this causing legal issues, that might shut it down even if basic human empathy doesn’t get people to listen

    7. Not All*

      I’m not sure which agency you are with, but I know DOI has an online course coming that will meet the mandatory requirements. The FPS guy in the building told me he was expecting it to up and running in December some time. If you think that you might be able to tolerate that, you could try waiting. I know for one person in my previous office, the quiet agreement is that he is going to log into the course and the leave the room and someone else is going to take it for him because there is NO WAY it wouldn’t trigger his PTSD to the point he would be months recovering. He’s a combat veteran and no one has any concerns that he wouldn’t know what to do if an actual active shooter happened…no point torturing him to check a box. Yes, the agency *should* have accommodation and exceptions built into policy, but that one at least doesn’t and probably won’t without legal action. His supervisor is on board with this plan thankfully.

    9. Trauma survivor in the workplace*

      In my initial moments of blind panic, I forgot that EAP is a thing that exists. I’ve made some calls and with any luck I’ll be able to see someone next week, and if I have to start an ADA accommodation request I’ll at least have some paperwork to start with.

      Thanks for your support and advice, you are all wonderful.

      1. BRR*

        I hope that works for you. If not, I’d talk to your manger and hr and then follow up with an email asking for an accommodation to the training. They’re obligated to work with you on this.

  75. JustaTech*

    Work lunch question:
    I’ve been eating a big salad for lunch at work pretty much every day since the beginning of summer and I really like it because of all the reasons salads are great, and it’s super quick to pack in the morning (since I make them all on the weekend). But now it’s getting on fall and cold and grey and salad is just not a warm enough lunch.
    Does anyone have a suggestion of something like a salad I could do for lunch but is warm? I’ve currently got a fridge and microwave at work (the toaster disappeared), and utensils and bowls and whatnot. Is soup the best option? Is there such a thing as a warm salad?
    Thanks!

    1. Mazzy*

      Warm rice and vegetables with a sauce that is like a salad dressing? I would sautéed broccoli and boil sweet potatoes and add rice and then some pesto or creamy salad dressing or hummus. Or tomato sauce. Or substitute some Green Giant frozen veggies for the broccoli.

    2. soup is also good*

      A warm-ish salad that I like is a taco salad. I like to keep the greens in a separate container. The warm ingredients are usually something like shredded chicken and beans.

    4. Catsaber*

      There are various pasta and noodle “salads,” but if you’re looking for something more veggie based, you could slice up some zucchini and squash and nuke that with a little butter and salt/pepper, and then combine it with whatever else. I have done that, and it’s quite tasty. You could also prepare some warm things to put on top of the leafy lettuce foods that don’t do well in the microwave.

    5. CM*

      A grain bowl can be basically a warm salad. You can have roasted vegetables, cooked greens, beans, toasted seeds and nuts, hard or crumbly cheese, and you could separately bring some fresh ingredients to mix in like some lettuce or cherry tomatoes.

      1. Joielle*

        I second grain bowls! I do this a lot – usually quinoa as a base and some leftover roasted veggies and tofu or black beans or chicken. And sometimes just actual salad dressing as a sauce, if I haven’t had time to make one.

      3. Delta Delta*

        I love grain bowls. They can include miscellaneous seasonal things and all sorts of other tasty things. I find I like them at room temperature (I also like Diet Coke at room temperature, so take my taste with a grain of salt), which is a nice balance between cold and warm.

      4. LilySparrow*

        I had a Mediterranean grain bowl at Panera last week, and it was so good it took over my grocery list for the week.

    7. Kimmy Schmidt*

      There are warm salads! A lot of them have grains as a base, like lentils, quinoa, or millet. Some veggies do well as warm salad base. I like squash and sweet potato salads. There’s lots of other possibilities – kale, brussel sprouts, beets, chickpeas. There are several recipes out there, or you can mix and match and play around to find what you like.

    8. Dana B.S.*

      I’m also on Team Soup. You can use most salad ingredients in it and a really good flavorful broth is better than salad dressing.

    9. Llama Wrangler*

      I was also going to suggest a grain bowl. For example, this week I did some rice, kale, onions, and beans with yogurt and feta cheese. For flavor, Gochujang, miso, zatar, and cumin are my go-toes.

      If you want something in-between (a heartier but not hot salad), I like raw kale with roasted vegetables. I find it helps a lot to take the salad out of the fridge an hour before lunch so its room temperature instead of cold.

      101 cookbooks is my go-to for inspiration for these kinds of things. I’ll post a link in the next comment with recipes for the two I mentioned above.

    10. Jules the 3rd*

      Green salad with some hot add-ons, like grilled chicken cubes or taco meat/beans. Bring salad greens and cold bits in a big container with some extra space, hot add-ons in a smaller one. Heat add-ons at lunchtime, mix in the big container.

      I do this all the time, as I like romaine but not totally cold lunches. Shredded cheese does not heat / transfer well, but feta does.

      I am, however, in the US south, where ‘cold’ means 50F (18C), so grain bowls with mixed veg may be a better option for colder climes.

    11. Zephy*

      Welcome to the wonderful world of meal-prepping!

      Soups and stews are great for this, just make sure your containers are water-tight. Here’s a list off the top of my head of things I’ve prepped and brought to work for lunch:

      – Butternut squash soup (a la Panera Bread)
      – Broccoli cheddar soup (also a la Panera Bread)
      – Beef stew
      – Japanese-style curry: essentially beef stew with curry sauce, though I’ve also used chicken and pork, and you can omit the meat altogether if desired. I buy Golden Curry roux blocks on Amazon. A whole block makes 12 servings, and the whole thing comes together in about half an hour, including time to chop veggies. I like medium-hot, but there’s several spice levels available. I put in the standard onion, carrot, and potato, then usually shiitake or portobello mushrooms because I like them, and something green like broccoli, spinach, or bok choy to round it out.
      – DIY Chipotle bowls with rice (or cauliflower “rice”), canned black beans, fajita veggies, and shredded meat (usually chicken, occasionally pork – again you can omit the meat if desired). I packed salsa and sour cream in separate little containers and added them after heating up the rest. Cauliflower “rice” is really as easy as it sounds if you aren’t familiar. Literally just very finely chopped cauliflower – if you have a food processor, it takes no time at all.
      – Barley salad with roasted sweet potato, onion, and rosemary. Or, you know, whatever your favorite combination of grain, roasted vegetable(s), and herbs might be. Maybe invite some dried fruit to the party, the world is your oyster. It tastes fine cold but it warms up nicely as well in the microwave. Cook the grain in stock rather than water for extra flavor. You can also easily add meat if desired.

      1. Cat's Pajamas*

        If you eat meat, chicken or other meat can be thrown in a crock pot with other veggies and bonus protein. You can add different sauces like bbq, salsa etc or veggie chili is good too.

        Roasted veggies with rice or whatever grain side you like.

    13. AcademiaNut*

      You can definitely do warm salads! There are two ways I’d do it – a whole salad that just needs to be warmed up, and part of the salad that’s heated up and put on top of the greens and crispy vegetables.

      Some ideas:

      Roasted vegetables (beets, carrots, onions, daikon, parsnips, turnips, kohlrabi, mushrooms, cherry tomatoes, broccoli) tossed with a cooked grain or legume (rice, buckwheat, black lentils, millet, barley, etc) and dressed with a flavourful vinagrette. This even freezes well (before adding the dressing).

      Roasted broccoli or cauliflower and red onion with pine nuts and lemon miso dressing.

      Meat (grilled steak, chicken breasts, shrimp etc) heated up, served on a bed of sturdy greens, dressed with the meat juices and a complementary dressing.

      Another option is your basic rice bowl, which can be assembled ahead of time. Rice or other grain, topped with things like cooked meats, vegetables (raw, lightly blanched or roasted), tofu, kimchi, pickles, and dressing. Heat, mix, add any garnishes and eat. These can be very versatile depending on what you put in – think Korean, Thai, Vietnamese, Italian, Middle Eastern, Chinese, Japanese, Mexican….

  76. Mazzy*

    Is this too petty to talk to someone about? A young male employee is always playing with his hair – I think he wants it to be in a style that it’s just not naturally going to go into, so he needs to use gel and products and stop trying to make it happen naturally. He will style his hair with his hands fifteen or twenty times quickly in a row at his desk, ten or fifteen times a day, because it falls down in between, unless his hair is short. It makes him look spazzy and insecure but obviously doesn’t impose a specific problem. It’s more of an image thing. Would you say something?

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      What’s your standing? Random coworker – no, I wouldn’t say anything unless he brings up ‘hey, your hair looks good, how do you get it to do that?’ Team lead – maaaaybe . Manager – maybe.

    2. fposte*

      I found this a strangely charming problem. Young guy wants his hair to do stuff!

      I think he shouldn’t do that at his desk in the open because generally self-grooming in the open is supposed to be pretty limited. However, I would only mention it to him if he were doing it during meetings or other face-to-face interactions, and then only if you’re his boss (I wasn’t clear).

    4. Joielle*

      I think I’d only say something if he was doing it while talking to me – “Sorry, can you do that later? Bit distracting.” Because honestly, it does sound a bit distracting. I’m envisioning like a raccoon grooming routine.

    5. Alianora*

      I probably wouldn’t say anything, unless it somehow ends up affecting your work or he asks for feedback.

    6. Close Bracket*

      I would work on myself to examine why somebody running their fingers through their hair affects me so deeply and impacts my image of them so strongly.

    7. On Hold*

      Too petty, don’t talk.

      I’m on the other side of this – short hair, I don’t particularly care about haircuts, so my hair is often a bit long and floppy and getting in my face. I push it back quite frequently. If you got on my case about it, I would (politely but instantly) dismiss your opinion about my hair, and likely any other opinions of yours that I was previously on the fence about. Leave him alone.

      If you are his manager, what matters is his work. If it’s good, this habit doesn’t change that. If it’s not, deal with that (real) problem, instead of this fake one.

  77. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

    Hello from Not the Hellmouth! Today we have the Bloodmobile on property, so I will be spending the day hyping the blood drive to residents while also dodging pushy people who won’t accept a simple “Oh, no, I can’t donate today” or believe me when I say “When I give blood I pass out, and then I spend the next three days lying down, feeling horrible, and being basically worthless and that is just not something I’m prepared to go through this weekend as I have pretty active plans.” Guys, I don’t think I’m a monster because I don’t want to pass out or be sick for a few days, but I’m pretty sure I’m going to feel like one by the end of the day.

    In other news, apparently “complicated coffee machine engineer” is supposed to be one of my skillsets, and my manager is incredibly irritated by my lack of, um, mechanical inclination, I guess? We have this very complicated machine that makes coffee, lattes, cappuccinos, hot chocolate, and the like, and it seems that the (now gone) other leasing consultant did not teach me the proper way to clean it (which I do daily). So a mixer got blocked. So I got an epic lecture from the boss who then completely disassembled the insides (hoses, thingamabobs… sprockets? I don’t know, just a big pile of *stuff*) for me to go and thoroughly scrub… and then reassemble on my own. Um. So there were not pictures, and there were a LOT of parts, and… well, long story short, I did my best. I was about to test the sucker my boss came back out… and hot water started spewing everywhere. Just EVERYWHERE. It was kind of like Old Faithful, except it smelled slightly of vanilla sweetener. So. Yeah. My boss took over putting it back together.

    The coffee tastes pretty good, though.

    I am still waiting to hear back on that state job, although a very nice contact of mine in HR let me know that 1) it will probably be up to two more weeks before I hear anything, due to that section being a bit slower than other sections when it comes to hiring stuff, and 2) she and another person in HR are really hoping to hear that I am the pick, because they think I could help make the section move a lot faster on that kind of stuff. Both really great things to hear! It’s easy to not stress about hearing from them when I know they take forever, and it’s nice to know that people want me around (hopefully the hiring manager will turn out to be one of those people). The friend who originally told me about the opening says that they won’t tell him if it’s me, but he’s about 90% sure that it is, so keep those fingers crossed!

    1. Grace*

      Do blood people in your part of the world not take “I pass out” as an answer? Yikes.

      When I mentioned to a nurse that I occasionally feel very faint, and although it’s never been linked to blood donations I usually get the extra-tippy chair and extra time just in case, she ordered me to go to the doctor before my next donation and basically put it on file that I need an answer ASAP or I won’t be allowed to donate in the future. They were taking that stuff seriously. If I couldn’t give them a good medical reason of why my faint spells are completely unrelated to donation, I wouldn’t be allowed to donate. And I’m O-, so they genuinely need my blood.

      (I have an answer. Postural hypotension, triggered by standing for too long as opposed to the more common standing-up-quickly version. Stay hydrated, eat salt, don’t get a job that involves standing for more than an hour at a time particularly in the heat, don’t lock your knees, keep your legs moving. Next time I go, that will hopefully satisfy them.)

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        They do not always accept it. They ask if you’re sure you were hydrated enough last time, etc, etc, etc. There’s a LOT of pressure to donate, and (in my experience) when you work on the property where the blood drive is being held and you can’t just, you know, escape into the night (or I guess the day, in this case), that pressure never really lets up. It makes my anxiety spike wildly.
        It’s a shame, too. I would absolutely donate blood every single time (even though I am also not super okay with needles, or with people rolling their eyes at me when I ask for a baby needle) if I didn’t pass out and feel so sick for days afterwards. Every five or so years I guess I somehow forget/suppress the memory of just how bad it is and try again, and… yeah, it’s awful. If I was O- like you I would probably just suck it up, but I am only B+.

        1. Bee's Knees*

          I’ve never donated, because every time I have to get blood work done at the dr., this happens. I have the nurse a really terrible scare one time. I’m ghost white on a good day, but I went from my normal color, to copy paper white, to slightly yellow in the space of about a minute. Would not recommend.

          And good luck on the job!

        2. Grace*

          That makes me feel kind of gross for some reason. Like… It’s your blood? Please don’t pressure people to give it away?

          I donate because I want to – I signed up as soon as I could and always get the first appointment possible after any mandatory wait period. Being O- is an extra incentive, but it’s not the reason why I do it – the main incentives are I don’t have a problem with needles and It feels good when you get a text to say your blood was used. The fact that I don’t care about needles is the big one. Besides, donating blood has caught my anaemia twice, so I’m planning to keep doing it!

          We don’t have ‘blood drives’ over here, though, which is a big difference. The units move around the country and set up in church halls and things, but there’s no “Everyone in the workplace should go and donate!” thing. That might have something to do with it.

          1. Arts Akimbo*

            Yeah, exactly! It’s like, “Stop asking me for a part of my body that I do not consent to give you!”

        3. Michelle*

          My son donated at school once* and then the donation center was calling every.single.day because he apparently has a rare blood type (AB Positive). I finally had to block them. Then they started sending postcards. My cousin’s BIL is an attorney and wrote a letter to get them to stop.

          *He passed out at school. Luckily a coach was waiting to go on the bus when he stepped down and passed out and caught him. He had to pick him up and carry him to a chair. Then the office ladies fussed over him and one even went on the bus and told them he passed out and they were like what do you want us to do?

        4. H.C.*

          You can always fib and say you donated within the last two months at another facility. Or you have a disqualifying condition that you don’t want to get into.

          1. HappySharpie*

            Or that you were a military dependent in Europe. I can’t donate blood because we lived over there in the early 90’s and there’s a chance that we could have made cow disease (which they can’t test for until you’re dead) . My cousin was born in Germany (b/c my uncle was in the military) and he tried to go donate and they told him the same thing.

        5. EnfysNest*

          My issue is that my iron is always too low. I wish I could donate, but 9/10 times when I try, I get turned away because my iron isn’t high enough. Even that doesn’t always stop people from asking, but confirming that, yes, I always try eating specific food before hand doesn’t work, or that my sister was actually diagnosed as low-iron anemic and I was considered borderline for the same is enough to get them to back off.

          No one should be questioning your reasoning at all, but at least having an answer of “they won’t ever let me” does seem to prevent too much push-back, since they see it as “I’m not allowed” instead of “I choose not to”, even when that choice is for a perfectly valid reason. Maybe you could adjust your phrasing to say “it’s not safe for me to donate blood” or “my body has a bad reaction to donating” to make it a bit more clear that it’s just not an option for you? Again, it’s obnoxious that anyone thinks they have any right to an opinion on your blood one way or another, of course.

        6. Kat in VA*

          I donated blood a few months ago and I felt crappier (for several days!) doing the blood donation than when I donated plasma back in the day*.

          I also got a lot of pressure to do whatever amped-up version there is of blood donation that isn’t plasma (I forget what it’s called) because I’m AB+ – then when I told the guy I didn’t weigh 150lb which is the required weight for women to do said donation, he looked me up and down and said doubtfully, “Are you sure you don’t weigh at least 150?”

          I mean, yeah, I was wearing jeans and boots and a bulky sweater at the time but dude, I know what I weigh, do you wanna risk me hitting the floor because I’m below your required weight? I came pretty close to backing out of the whole thing with his smart-ass comment.

          *I weighed more than 150 when I donated plasma, maybe the weight differential had something to do with it?

      2. EddieSherbert*

        Totally don’t accept it!!
        I literally *cannot* donate blood due to a chronic medical condition. I get bugged to donate until I admit I have a condition that means I can’t… then asked what the condition is… then asked to explain it in detail because most people haven’t heard of it… then get suggestions on how to handle it and to talk to the nurses anyways… Hate it!

        At this point I either avoid the main part of the building where they usually are located in or work from home on Blood Drive days.

    2. Happy Lurker*

      I actually tried to give blood three times. Twice my iron was too low and the third time the American Red Cross sent me a nice little note that said not to ever donate again!! I was terrified and went straight to my doctor. Apparently, multiple episodes with mono have left my blood tainted. I am content with this since the one time I did give blood I felt terrible for almost a week and will happily avoid that situation. So…HM feel free to use my experience if it helps you. Sorry! Just got over mono and can’t donate.
      BTW, I have told those RAH RAH Blood Donation people various takes on my story….yup they suggest donating again to see if my situation has cleared up. Some of them are the gosh darnedest pushiest people I have ever met. I secretly think they are all vampires. :)
      I secretly hate those crazy coffee machines. They scare me and now you gave me an excellent reason why! Thanks for the update. Have a great weekend.

      1. fposte*

        Yes, I got one of those bans too! Nothing like finding a note in your mailbox that there’s a registered letter from the blood bank that you need to go to the post office to sign for. (Subsequently my life in the UK has disqualified me anyway.)

        1. InsufficentlySubordinate*

          Yeah, 4 months living in the UK over 25 years ago bars me from blood donation because of “mad cow”. The disease, not me. ;-)

          1. fposte*

            Yes, I guess we have to go back to the UK if we want to give blood, ironically.

            However: if people who want not to give blood for other reasons need a nice neutral excuse, just say, “I lived in the UK before 1996.” No need to get personal.

      2. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        I bet they are all vampires. I should point them towards the Hellmouth. And thanks! You have a great weekend, too!

    3. Colette*

      Try “For health reasons, I am unable to donate”. But I’m also surprised they’re not taking it seriously – I was banned for several years because I passed out the first time I donated, and then was overly cautious the second time.

      1. Lily Rowan*

        The health reasons make it even more important not to press people on why they aren’t donating, especially at work! “I had casual sex with a bisexual guy, so they won’t take me” is not something you want to force someone to tell you!

        1. Lily Rowan*

          I meant to say “health reasons,” with scare quotes because there are reasons the Red Cross will reject you that are unrelated to your actual health.

          1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

            Right? Don’t pick on me when plenty of people who could easily donate aren’t allowed to for dumb reasons.

      2. EddieSherbert*

        I can’t donate blood for health reasons and very often get pushed to disclose those reasons! *eyeroll*

      3. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        I once had someone start reading off the list of health reasons so I could identify if my reason was really on there when I tried to use that. For real.

        1. Venus*

          Dental work – teeth cleaning – is such a bland one (it might be that the ‘work’ has to be more invasive, like a cavity, but no need to go into detail). There are many small ones. ‘A bit of a tickle in my throat, and would hate to get someone who is compromised sick”

    4. Seifer*

      Fingers crossed for you!

      RE: the blood drive. I have the blood type that’s the universal donor. I do not tell people this, because I do not weigh the minimum poundage to give blood. One time I let it be known and I basically got dragged to a blood drive and plunked in front of a bewildered blood… taker person only for him to tell me that he really could not take my blood because it would be extremely unpleasant for me. So now I just tell people that I can’t give blood, my doctor said no. But also. Apparently if you get tattoos, you can’t give blood for a while, so I will use that as an excuse too, depending on my mood that day.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        That actually sounds like a good way to get the pushier people to just give up. I just need to sharpie my arm really quickly…

        1. Seeking Second Childhood*

          Or just imply you put one on your butt… although that might bring out a previously unidentified creeper.

    5. Fikly*

      My sister has the unfortunate thing where she passes out from sharp pain, which needles pokes are part of. No one believes her when she warns them, and then they freak out when she passes out. She is always exasperated – why on earth would she lie about such a thing?

    6. Zephy*

      All extremities crossed for the state job!!

      I can’t donate blood, either. Nobody’s given me a hard time about it lately, but my go-to line is “It’s mine, I grew it myself.” Usually the joke either distracts them enough that they drop it, or it’s off-putting enough that they don’t bring it up again, and either way is fine with me.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Hahahaha, I should just start deadpanning “No, I need it,” in my best Wednesday Adams voice.

    7. Wishing You Well*

      You’re not a monster for not being able to donate blood. You’re doing what you can for the blood drive and they oughta be grateful for your efforts. “I pass out” should’ve stopped these pushy people. Consider spinning on your heels and walking away after you’ve said no. If you can’t move away, you can say you’re helping by promoting the blood drive and that you need to get back to (something). All with a smile if you can manage it.
      The coffee machine incident sounds like a cunning plan on your part! Genius ending! A more diabolical person would make sure one small but critical part got “lost”, but you’re too nice for that.
      Great to hear from you! Fingers crossed on the job!

    8. Coverage Associate*

      For the coffee machine, try to identify make and model, then google for written, picture and video directions.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        I think I’m just going to politely say no next time, actually. Well, hopefully there won’t be a next time!

    9. A. Traveller*

      Take photos with your phone – of the coffee machine :) Makes it so much easier to put everything back together later. Also, as mentioned somewhere by someone in this thread, google for manuals. You don’t have to read the whole thing, just the maintenance and the error sections.

      1. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

        Eh, machine repair/putting-back-together is really outside of my area of expertise and not really something that should be part of my job. I think I will just be pushing back if there is ever another similar situation. :)

    10. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

      I know donating blood is a worthy cause, but I wouldn’t want to be pressured about donating at my home by property management. I’m sure you are not being pushy about it to residents, and can’t help what the higher-ups do.
      Feel you on the complicated coffee machine!

    11. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      Late breaking update: I GOT THE STATE JOB!
      It will take them a few weeks to check my references/do paperwork/do my background check/finalize my offer, but they just called and told me I am their pick! HUZZAH!

      13. Aphrodite*

        OMGT, that is fantastic! Super congratulations. I am beyond happy for you! Can’t wait to hear more details about it if you are comfortable sharing that.

      18. Venus*

        Definitely ‘late breaking’ as they called quite late in the day – what an unexpectedly quick surprise of the best kind! Congrats! How funny that you were just told that you wouldn’t hear anything for at least two weeks…

    12. Llellayena*

      I’ve been know to have to run around the building 3 times just to get enough blood drawn for a test vial. I also have needle anxiety. Donating blood is just never going to happen. Try “I’d love to but I can’t.” You’ll get points for the intent and anyone who pushes gets “Medical reasons” as the only response. Don’t explain more than that, no one except your doctor needs to know more.

    13. hamburke*

      ways I have accidentally gotten out of giving blood:
      “I just found out that I’m pregnant”
      “I take blood thinners”

      Ways my husband gets out of giving blood:
      “I lived in the UK in the 80’s”

  78. downdate*

    I know this isn’t necessarily feasible and won’t always work for everything, but my abusive boss just got promoted to a position of even more power and I really really wish that, for an internal promotion, they did a 360 assessment first and made it clear that they wanted frank and accurate assessments from that person’s direct reports and those who work on his projects. Because no one who works under him or been on his projects has anything good to say about him at all. But he sucks up to leadership. So, boom, promotion.

    (We’ve complained. There’s been an internal investigation into him. He’s still here. And now he’s promoted. Because who listens to us.)

    1. EddieSherbert*

      Yikes, sounds like they wouldn’t *do* anything with an assessment anyways since you’re reported him and everything. I hope you’re job hunting!

  79. Crystal Smith*

    Does anyone have any tips for controlling (or reversing?) when your face flushes? As in, sometimes if I’m in a meeting with people I don’t know very well and attention switches to me (I have to speak, someone asks me a question) my face turns RED. And yes, it’s definitely noticeable, my face will still be noticeably pink an hour later (people will ask me if I’m alright/sick/mad.)

    I know it’s an anxiety thing, and I have everything under control when it comes to my *actions* – I can speak articulately, I sound calm, my expression is fine…but once that blush starts, it just will. not. go away. And it’s hard to head it off before it happens – sometimes I don’t even register that I’m reacting at all until I realize I feel like I have a sunburn. I’ve tried taking deep breaths, drinking cold drinks, drinking hot drinks, and nothing seems to really help. I just hate that it looks like I’m getting upset or embarrassed, when really it’s like there’s a “someone is looking at me” indicator light…in my face. Plus, it feels really uncomfortable!

    1. juliebulie*

      I don’t do it as much as I used to, but it’s still a problem and I hate it.
      I have never actually looked for a solution, on the assumption that there is no solution; but maybe I’ve been wrong about that.

    2. fposte*

      I think this is one of those body things that is really hard to change. I know there’s a surgery but that’s really drastic. Do you know if you have rosacea? You might check the lists of possible triggers to see if dialing back on those helps.

      Another thing to consider is the response and the cycle–is it worse when you’re aware of it or worried about it? Can you try DBT/CBT to care less about it (it really isn’t likely to be something that is that big a deal to people looking at you)?

    3. face flush*

      The only thing I can thing of that might possibly help is a cooling necklace- like hematite? Not saying it’s a cure-all, but it’s a start…

    4. Leona*

      Chronic bright-red blusher here. I read once that people feel more sympathetic and friendly toward those who blush, so I sometimes lean on that…otherwise, I’ve found it helpful to just reassure myself in the moment: “You’re turning red and that’s normal for you and it will fade.” Sometimes I think the panicky feeling makes it worse – “oh no! I’m blushing! I can feel it! Everyone will be embarrassed for me!” And with close pals or coworkers I feel comfortable with, I have said “Hey, sometimes I turn really red when I’m on the spot – it’s just an annoying quirk I have as a super pale person, so please just ignore it.”

    5. Wishing You Well*

      First, call your doctor and ask for advice on this.
      Maybe try mineral makeup at home to see if it hides the flush. That won’t help with the anxiety, though. You might want to look into DBT or other therapies to lessen your discomfort. You can tell people who comment it’s a harmless, but annoying medical thing (because it is). You don’t have to tell them anything else because of HIPAA.
      You might also try Toastmasters to get a lot of practice speaking. (I hate speaking publicly, so I sympathize with you!)
      I hope this gets better for you.

    7. LilySparrow*

      If people ask if you’re okay, you can tell them something like, “Thanks, I have a minor vascular condition. It’s harmless, just annoying.”

      That’s what this is, after all- your blood rushes to your face for no good reason. And maybe framing it that way will help you de-escalate it in your own mind. Which may, in turn, reduce it somewhat.

      I’m very pale, and turn bright red when I work out. I’m completely fine, but it startles people. It helped to have a reassuring script that I could easily rattle off without thinking about it too much.

      1. Anonymous healthcare person*

        Beta blockers. You can take as needed before a presentation or something similar. It’s a prescription med so talk to your doctor. I don’t know what the contraindications are or if it’s something to take long term, I’ve only seen it recommended to take every once in a while, but IANAD.

  80. Scrimpie*

    Another interesting update for today on my situation. (Here’s the TL;DR for my prior posts: I got in trouble several weeks ago at work for “sexualized” behavior in the workplace, which was/is extremely odd as I’m a middle-aged heavyset lady who is a rather drab and frumpy dresser and almost never discusses personal (and NEVER sexual) matters at work. Later found out the issue was that apparently a colleague (Fergus) in a different but related department, whose team works with mine semi-regularly, had a crush on me, and I was ultimately fired for “sexual misconduct” over vague complaints that I was making eyes at him and generally flaunting myself in his presence, causing him to be distracted from his work and disrupting his marriage.)

    Fergus reached out to me (at my personal email – previously published in the office contact directory) a few days ago to say that he was horrified and mortified at how this had played out. The email, which copied my boss, his boss, and the HR manager, told his side of the story – that he met with his manager at the manager’s request to discuss some recent performance issues, and that the discussion largely centered on his marital difficulties which were now resulting in a divorce. He and his manager discussed strategies for getting his work back on track and agreed one avenue would be to focus more on building positive relationships with colleagues. Fergus mentioned me as someone he would like to get to know better as a work colleague, and that he hoped we could collaborate on more projects. He said he threw out a comment, which he now realizes was probably an extremely poor choice of phrase, about having a “work crush” on me, but meant it as a compliment about my competence and collegial nature at the office, not about sexual attraction. In any event, he thought he was having a private conversation with his boss and in no way did he ask/want HR to get involved. His email stated that I did nothing wrong whatsoever, that I had never conducted myself in an inappropriate or unprofessional manner, and that any implication to the contrary was putting words in his mouth and twisting the situation. He went on to say he knew he would possibly be fired himself for sending this email, but that it was the right thing to do, to document his position in writing on the official work system, as he had tried to speak with HR and our bosses to set the record straight but to no avail.

    Despite this development, the company is *still* insisting that the way I presented myself to Fergus constituted “sexual misconduct” and that he, as the victim, doesn’t get to determine whether or not my behavior was appropriate. I have now secured a lawyer and have an appointment next week to begin discussing my case – will continue to update.

    1. Amber Rose*

      Jesus. Poor Fergus is actually a decent dude.

      Your company, on the other hand, is such a huge WTF right now that I find myself completely speechless.

    3. FormerFirstTimer*

      WHat the hell?!? I hope you’re going for money and not your job back, this place sounds toxic and weird. Good luck.

    4. Corky's wife Bonnie*

      This whole thing just gets more bizarre!! Please keep us posted, I’m dying to hear about the next steps with your lawyer.

    6. CatCat*

      Wow. Wow. Wow.

      Your former company is a trash fire.

      Respect to Fergus. Definitely take his email with you when you meet with your lawyer.

    7. I WORKED on a Hellmouth*

      Holy hell, My mind is blown. Just… blown.

      Please let us know how the appointment with the lawyer goes. Because this is totally bananacrackers.

    9. juliebulie*

      Wow. Fergus really went to bat for you.
      Your former employer, on the other hand, seems to have a death wish.

    10. fposte*

      Wow. Good for Fergus.

      So why do you think HR and your bosses have gone off on this wild tear? Do they just dislike you? Are they compensating for something elsewhere at work or in personal lives? It’s the most bizarre momentum based on nothing that I’ve ever seen. (And I can’t remember where you are with the lawyer, but that’s happening, right?)

      2. Scrimpie*

        My own boss is fairly new – as of a year ago – I had been with the company for several years when she joined. I know she doesn’t love me personally – she had expressed a few times that she wished I could be more “ladylike,” including in the performance review I had early this year, but this was always said with the caveat that my work was great and my coworkers seemed to like/respect me so that it might just be her personal pet peeve. (My employer was a tech company that did not have a dress code beyond being neat and tidy; my boss came from a project management background in financial services where highly gendered dress/presentation are more of a thing.) The comments were a slight ding in my review rating but ultimately did not affect my raise and bonus, so I just let it go at the time. But it does seem like she may have been looking for something to latch on to? That wouldn’t explain why Fergus’s boss escalated their conversation, though, unless both of the bosses were already talking about a way to get rid of me. It’s not a company where HR seems to have much power of its own and their function seems to be to back up the bosses, not weigh in with independent opinions.

        1. fposte*

          Hmm. For me the key sign here isn’t just that she dinged you but she dinged you in a weird, gendered (and indefensibly discriminatory) way. I think she’s the engine here.

          (I guess to me insufficiently “ladylike” would usually mean “not girly enough” so I’m a little confused that you were later too sexy for your desk or whatever, but maybe she meant you were wore ankle-strap shoes and could smoke on the street at any moment. I dunno, it’s all confusing.)

          1. Scrimpie*

            She meant that my personal presentation isn’t very traditionally feminine (always wear pants, never wear heels or makeup, have short hair) and also that I tend to be direct and look people in the eye. She said I also need to be careful not to upstage the men. I asked, at time of my review, if my attire/presentation was breaking any rules and if anyone else had complained about my communication style, and she said no – just that it was all off-putting to her personally and that she was used to “ladies” in the workplace paying more attention to appearance norms and generally being more deferential to the “gentlemen.” I did get the sense that she was annoyed that I was well-liked by my colleagues, despite not being traditionally feminine in my behavior and demeanor.

            1. fposte*

              Whoa. She is absolutely the discriminatory wellspring here. If you have copies of any of these comments, save them for the lawyer.

              It’s unbelievable that she’s gotten the others to go along with this. It’s probably going to happen again, and then maybe they will start to wonder…

              2. juliebulie*

                I feel like this whole situation is reaching us through a wormhole from 1952. Each new detail is a fresh slice of outrage.

            2. Librarian of SHIELD*

              Holy fork, Scrimpie. Your ex-boss has hard-core internalized all the misogyny she ever met. I hope your lawyer gets you a brilliant settlement and that you never have to work with this person ever again.

            4. Close Bracket*

              She said I also need to be careful not to upstage the men.

              !!!

              she was used to “ladies” in the workplace paying more attention to appearance norms and generally being more deferential to the “gentlemen.”

              Yeah, that’s called gender discrimination. I hope you told your lawyer about this.

              Funny how you are simultaneously insufficiently ladylike and also a brazen hoyden. That sounds like a lot of work. You must be exhausted.

              1. Troutwaxer*

                Funny how you are simultaneously insufficiently ladylike and also a brazen hoyden.

                Not funny at all! Don’t you know those things always go together! /snark!

            5. They Don’t Make Sunday*

              holy hell. it sounds like in her perverse little mind, you *are* guilty of sexual (read: gender) “misconduct”: dressing and behaving in a way that is more “masculine” than she is comfortable with at work. i hope your case costs the company so much money that she (if she’s indeed the engineer of this bizarro crusade) gets fired and dissolves into a polished, deferential mist.

              i also cosign the suggestion below to keep further details off the internet, much as it pains me to. godspeed.

            6. Kat in VA*

              Holy cow! I am girly AF (all the makeup, long hair, wrap dresses, heels, even nylons) because that’s my personal STYLE. It’s not a reflection of my capability or my professionalism or how well I do my job.

              And that whole “Be deferential to the men and don’t upstage the men because delicate feels thing”…hooboy. Because even with all that girlyness I got going on, I’m also a raging hardcore feminist and this comment would have had me frothing at the mouth to the point they’d lock me up for rabies observation.

              I have all the contact fury for you from afar and I hope you sue their asses off and win!

        2. irene adler*

          Was “ladylike” actually used in the review?

          Is she also expecting the men who report to her to be “ladylike” as well?
          Because this strikes me as very gendered and would certainly go against any company policy regarding treating the sexes fairly.

          I am flabbergasted at your narrative. Hope that attorney can “get ’em good!”

          1. Scrimpie*

            “Ladylike” was used in the verbal discussion of the review, but not in the written review itself. The review itself stated that my appearance met minimum dress code standards but was plain and lacked polish (I can’t really argue with that on a factual level, although I would argue with its relevance for a back-office tech job), and that, although no specific complaints were documented, my “direct” manner “may” make colleagues uncomfortable.

            1. Gumby*

              It’s still worth bringing up with the lawyer, IMO. Sure, she can deny it, but once the rest of this gets to a court of law (or wherever it ends up) you will be the more reliable witness anyway. Also, they can then look into whether any of the men were dinged for “lacking polish” in their attire. Ugh.

              Also? In my previous tech jobs? Most of the time the dress code requirements are on the level of “wear shoes.” That was aimed at one person who was more comfy wandering the office in socks. But that was seriously the only dress code in that particular employee manual.

              1. Scrimpie*

                Yes – my recent employer’s dress code (at least for the back-office jobs) is along the lines of “people and clothes must be clean” – basically, don’t be smelly or so unkempt that you make things unpleasant for the people around you. Otherwise there was no requirement for clothes to be ornamental rather than functional. My boss wore a full skirt suit, “done” hair, makeup, heels, and stockings/hose every day, but that was her choice and frankly NOT the norm, even among more senior executives, especially for days at the office that didn’t involve meeting with corporate clients.

    12. Hydrangea*

      I’m not a lawyer but… I would be cautious about sharing much more about this on public websites, even mostly anonymous ones.
      Perhaps it’s overly cautious on my part but at a minimum I would ask your lawyer about their thoughts on continuing to share what’s going on with a wide audience.

      Most of the attorney’s I’ve been around would very much discourage sharing about this online. It sucks – but maybe keep it for in person friends/a handwritten journal.

      To be clear – your exemployer sucks and I hope you get every nickel and dime possible from them. But, the justice, EEOC, and any other avenue you can think of processes are rarely fair. If the wrong person finds these posts on the wrong day it might throw a wrench in your efforts.

      1. Scrimpie*

        Thank you – that is likely very good advice – I definitely don’t know anything about employment law other than what I have read on this site. Originally (before I was fired) I was just hoping to get some support/advice about this bizarre situation, but I should probably save the stories for later until there is some kind of resolution.

        2. Hydrangea*

          I totally understand wanting support and advice!! And this is a great resource for it, I would just hate for you to get less than everything you’re entitled to for any reason (no matter how stupid that reason is)
          Whether or not you keep posting about this I’ll certainly be rooting for you

    13. Wishing You Well*

      Wow.
      I can’t help but wonder if the company used Fergus to hide an age-discrimination firing. Otherwise, the company sounds insane.
      PLEASE keep us updated!

    14. sacados*

      If this does wind up with Fergus getting fired as well, I hope you band together and BOTH sue the pants off them!

      1. EnfysNest*

        Would Fergus’ email fall into the realm of whistleblowing, that would allow him to be protected? It seems like it might, but I don’t know where the official bar is for that. Hopefully if he is fired, he has enough of his own documentation to show that it was for what should have been protected whistleblower actions.

        1. sacados*

          Probably not whistleblowing specifically, but it would be solid evidence to show that his firing was a result of retaliation.

    15. Close Bracket*

      he, as the victim, doesn’t get to determine whether or not my behavior was appropriate.

      If this were a case of actual sexual harassment or sexual assault, this would be the correct stance to take. Many times victims downplay their experience or simply don’t see it as a criminal situation. Victims have the right, as far as I am concerned, to frame their experience however they see fit. That doesn’t change whether the actions of an alleged offender meet the standard for civil or criminal prosecution, so that’s where you are stuck. It’s a position designed to prosecute actual offenders when the victim won’t (or can’t). I’m finding it hard to fault the position bc it’s such an important one in cases of actual harassment.

      I’m sorry that Fergus’s words got blown out of proportion like this and that you are stuck in this Kafkaesque situation where rules designed to do the right thing are actually doing entirely the wrong thing. It sucks for Fergus, too, but it sucks much worse for you.

      1. Scrimpie*

        That’s the thing – I also agree, in principle, that companies in this situation should make their own assessment as to whether something constitutes harassment, because victims do often try to play off their harassers’ behavior as “not a big deal” or otherwise start to feel guilty about their (legitimate) complaints and second-guess whether they should have spoken up. However, that assumes that *something* potentially untoward happened in the first place and that there was actually a victim! And here, Fergus never claimed to be a victim. He never claimed that I had done anything inappropriate to or around him. He confirmed that we had never even had a private or personal conversation. He used unfortunate phrasing to express that he admired my competence and work ethic, in the name of hoping we could work together more closely to, you know, benefit the company. And when those words were misconstrued he tried to set the record straight. In a way, the company is actually doing the harassing here by incorrectly applying a sexual element to platonic, work-appropriate interactions and Fergus’s own platonic feelings.

      2. tamarack and fireweed*

        It does however remind me of the (at first weird-sounding) fact that in the case of wrongly accused women, much more often than in the case of wrongly accused men, frequently no infraction was committed in the first place. (This is from research where infraction = crime, but I extrapolate.)

    16. Choosing a career path?*

      I hope you get a billionty dollars from your company, and a personal apology from everyone there.

    17. Damn it, Hardison!*

      This is horrible and I’m so sorry that it is happening to you. I hope you have a great lawyer and sue the hell out of your former employer.

    18. tamarack and fireweed*

      Holy fucking mackerel. So sorry about what is happening to you – and which incidentally makes a complete mockery of the problem of sexual misconduct. GOOD LUCK.

  81. Dezzi*

    How bad is it to job-hop within an organization?

    I’m at a non-profit social services agency. I was in an entry-level provider role for four years, then was asked to apply for a newly-created supervisory role. I did that for 2.5 years, totally burned out, and jumped at the opportunity when the admin assistant for a department I loved working with retired and their director asked me to apply for the role. Ten months later, my dream role in the organization opened up, everyone told me to go for it, and I did. But now after just under a year in what I thought was going to be my career for life…I know it’s not. It’s not the right fit, this job is way too emotionally difficult to do long term.

    A week after I came to that conclusion, the admin assistant for four of our administrators pulled me into her office, told me she’s retiring at the end of the year, and asked if I’d consider applying for the role. She’s been making some discreet inquiries, and supposedly everyone thinks I’d be wonderful for the job. I’d be so much less stressed and emotionally burnt out (I’m really struggling with secondary trauma, responsibility overload, and compassion fatigue right now), and have consistent hours that would give me the option to go back to school if I eventually decide I need to do that. But I’m worried about my resume–I’ve been with the same company for almost a decade now, but if I take this position, I’ll have two roles in a row that only lasted a year, and the one before that was only 2.5 years. Will this look as bad as my mother thinks it does? I would never want to change jobs that often if it involved changing companies, but is it any less bad if they’re all internal transfers? Or does it just make me seem flighty and unreliable?

    Thanks, all!

    1. Dana B.S.*

      It’s not bad at all unless there are different culture standards within your organization that would dictate that.

      1. Dezzi*

        I’m assuming it’s fine by the culture standards within the organization, since the different department heads sought me out and asked me to apply for the transfers. But I’m concerned that if I ever want to go somewhere else, it’ll look like I can’t stay in a job?

        2. Jules the 3rd*

          You don’t have to list all the separate positions with their date stamps. You should be able to list:
          NonProfit I Like (start date – end date)
          – Admin Assistant: Achievements from the 2 times you did that
          – Dream Job: Achievements
          – Supervisor: Achievements

          In an interview, you would talk to it with, “Execs asked me to take role x or role y”.

          1. Alianora*

            How would you address the department switches? Potentially different for a nonprofit vs a company vs other types of organizations?

            I work at a large university, and to me it makes a big difference if someone was an administrative assistant to the dean of research vs a small summer program vs Procurement. If I just saw Large University listed as the employer and no department, the resume would feel like it was missing information.

            1. zora*

              On the line next to “Administrative Assistant”
              So the top line wouldn’t have a department, but each job title you choose to list would say “Administrative Assistant – Dean’s Office” Almost like it’s part of your title.

              But still, like I said below, you don’t need to list every single position you had, just list the top ones that you have the most accomplishments for. They don’t need to know (and usually don’t care) about the granular details of which month you went from one department to another.

        3. zora*

          But I’m concerned that if I ever want to go somewhere else, it’ll look like I can’t stay in a job?

          No, most hiring managers are going to assume that if you were terrible, they would have just fired you entirely. Not accepted your transfers to different departments. This really isn’t something most hiring managers would consider “job hopping”.

    2. zora*

      It does not make you look flighty and irresponsible. You are fine, please stop worrying about this. On your resume, you don’t even necessarily have to point out every single title change. You can focus on the major accomplishments of the positions where you were most effective.

      If this position feels like it will be a good fit, and other people also think that, then definitely go for it!

  82. FormerFirstTimer*

    Does anyone have any tips on how to stop stuttering during presentations? I have to give one to my whole board this weekend, and every time I practice in front of people, I stutter terribly and it sounds bad. I hate public speaking and can’t for the life of me figure out why I volunteered for this! Aside from the fact it’s my area of expertise.

    1. fposte*

      Toastmasters. That’s the top recommended way to get practice. It might not mean that you stop stuttering, but you’ll be less thrown by it.

    2. Witchy Human*

      Speak slower, and breathe. If you can, keep your face neutral-to-positive if you can’t moderate vocal tics. It might help to hold onto something–it helps me to fidget a little bit with a pen when I’m in front of people.

      Are you tripping up over particular letters, or using a lot of filler words like “um”? If it’s the latter, a good trick is to just keep your mouth closed more, because “hmm” sounds more thoughtful and less uncomfortable than “ah” or “umm.”

      Mostly: remember that you sound way worse to yourself than you do to anyone else in the room. And your expertise should be much more important than the quality of your speech to you and your audience. Nobody is there for your speaking skills, they’re there for your knowledge.

    3. Alianora*

      Slow down, and also realize that a little bit of stuttering is normal.

      Nerves can exacerbate the problem, so I found it really helpful to listen to people who give presentations for a living and notice that even they stutter and misspeak from time to time. If you don’t make a big deal out of it, it doesn’t even register to most people.

  83. Youth*

    In my newish job, my writing is mostly public-facing, which means that I get all kinds of emails from anyone who comes across our website.

    Most of the time, the messages are…interesting. Here’s a line from an email from a…concerned citizen?

    Money not spent on crashes could be used to buy something advertised in your media. Other than insurance advertising to cover moose damaged playsets, smocks for the maid, flies for the lizard and law firms specializing in claims.

    And no, it didn’t make any more sense in context!

    This week, I got this one from a lawyer. Not a lawyer representing Warner Brothers…just a random lawyer.

    …I had to commend you on your “Warner Sister” reference in your [product] Review… Though I may take umbridge with your characterization of Dot’s primary feature being her cuteness. I think there’s more to her than that. Have a nice day.

    I’m both amused and bemused. My colleague says that it’s “letter to the editor” syndrome. Some people just want to voice their opinion…even if it’s irrelevant.

    1. Bilateralrope*

      I’ve had spam like that before. Perfect spelling in gibberish sentences. No links to whatever was being advertised (I check the message source). Some random letters the same color as the background.

      The bots have got better at imitating humans.

      1. Youth*

        Because these messages contain some specific identifying information that I didn’t include here, I’m relatively certain that they’re actual people.

    2. Zephy*

      Though I may take umbridge [sic] with your characterization of Dot’s primary feature being her cuteness.

      Was this person watching the same Animaniacs I was? Literally every other line of Dot’s was about how cute she was.

      1. Youth*

        Right? I thought it was strange he took the time to email me, but also stranger that he said that. I guess he really, really loves Dot Warner?

    3. Miss Astoria Platenclear*

      The first letter seem a trippy mishmash of insurance commercials: Moose-damaged playset = Farmers, Snacks for the maid = Flo from Progressive, Lizard = GEICO.

      1. Youth*

        OH MY GOSH. That would make so much more sense. The article he was commenting on was about car accidents, so the insurance bit seemed to fit, but when he started talking about moose and maids and lizards, I got lost.

  84. Cakezilla*

    I’m a new supervisor! I’ve supervised people in the past but only for a few months at a time; this time I’m going to be managing a team of permanent staff and interns. This is something I’ve wanted and I’m so glad for the opportunity to grow in my career, but. I have been so surprised by how stressful hiring is!

    I have support from HR and my own manager, and there are people to answer all my questions, but I still stress about every phone call I make and email I send. I proofread them three times and then wonder afterwards if what I sent was okay.

    I work in high stress situations all day and this should not stress me out by comparison, but it so does! It gets easier, right? How do you guys deal with this? (Also, anyone have any other general things they wish they’d known when they started supervising?)

    1. Dezzi*

      I promise, it will get easier! Be prepared for it to take about 6-12 months before you feel like you’ve really got your feet under you.

      One thing I wish someone had told me: this is the perfect time to take up a hobby, preferably something creative. Learn to paint or make ceramics, or grow bonsai trees or make intricate sculptures out of toothpicks. Cross stitch, knit, use gluesticks to make collages out of cut-up bits of magazines, take up photography or basket-weaving. It doesn’t really matter what it is, and it doesn’t really matter if you’re not any good at it. Get yourself one outlet, something you can do to clear your head and give you a tangible result at the end, and commit to spending at least two hours a week on it. Trust me, it will save your sanity.

  85. Hopefully l*

    I am currently in the middle of a job search and I’ve submitted a few applications. I know that Alison discourages following up with the employer, however, I wanted to see if it would be reasonable for me to do so in this situation.

    In January of this year, I applied for an admin position at a college that has a few different campuses in the area. I got a call for an interview within 1-2 weeks and even though I didn’t get the job, I was notified of this within a month after the interview and their online application system was updated to show that the position had been filled.

    Earlier this summer, I submitted two additional applications for similar positions to the same college but on different campuses. These were submitted in July and August (both at the beginning of the month.) But, I haven’t heard anything back. I’ve been checking the online application system occasionally and it still says that it is under review by the search committee for both applications.

    Would it be reasonable in this case to send a follow-up email regarding the applications?

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      This is a case of move on once you’ve applied; assume you won’t get the jobs and it will be a pleasant surprise if you do hear from them.

  86. Watermelon M*

    A little while back I posted about a job I was excited about and invited to interview for, but had listed a pretty big pay cut. I went and interviewed anyways because I found another salary range elsewhere and just wasn’t sure. I ended up being offered the job! But wow. They did offer me more than advertised, but it also still was a 25k pay cut AND no PTO and iffy health insurance. I don’t even make above 60k currently, so I couldn’t afford this. I even got a little heated (privately, not to the employer) that they would are paying folks wayyy below the market rate for our field! Especially for the credentials they ask for. On top of that, the only other perk they offered was free lunch. For someone who already packs their lunch, this wasn’t a big draw…

    I was so excited for this honestly really considered it despite the red flags of the offer because I’m so desperate to get out of my job. The culture seemed amazing, although I asked them about turnover and they said they wished they could pay their employees more.

    I turned down the offer. Back to square one.

    1. Queenie*

      Good, I am glad you turned it down! I know how hard it is to be back at square one, believe me! But trust me on this, you will find the perfect job! It may take time and it may be excruciatingly frustrating but it will be worth it!

  87. zora*

    Is this the right post to start a Job Search Accountability thread?

    I am getting super fed up with my job and really want to find a better one. But, my job is kind of easy and my coworkers are nice, so it’s hard to get up the motivation to actually start on the dreaded job hunt tasks.

    If I started a thread every Friday where those of us job hunting would have to post what we’ve done this week, would that help anyone else? I think it would help me to have a place to be accountable.

    And that said, I didn’t do anything this week. So, I will carve out time this weekend to sit down and write at least 3 paragraphs of a draft of my ‘career narrative’ that I think will help me decide how to narrow down the job postings I want to apply to.

    1. Watermelon M*

      I would certainly join in! It’s nice to know there’s a group of us out here job searching. It would keep me accountable but also sort of boost my morale that we’re in this together lol.

    2. wingmaster*

      I think it would help me!
      For me this week, I didn’t do much. I applied to a couple of postings, but I am anxiously waiting to hear back from a company that I flew out-of-state for last week…I was told last week that they will get back to me “before the end of next week,” and it’s Friday now…I know I’m supposed to take this with a grain of salt, but it’s hard to not think about it.

    3. Hopefully l*

      I would love this. I am currently job searching and it’s such a struggle to keep going. I haven’t done much with my job search this week due to circumstances that are out of my control, but I found one position that I can apply to.

      My current struggle is that I live in a fairly decent sized metropolitan area, but there is a larger metro area with far more jobs in my field about 1-2 hours away. A lot of people commute to that area, but I don’t think I could handle the 4 hour daily commute.

      1. zora*

        Awesome, well I will definitely start the thread every Friday, around 8:30/9am PT.

        I also think it will be nice to know I’m not alone and have a little support group to share with.

        Hopefully – I definitely couldn’t do a commute that long, so I’m right there with you. Is there any networking in your field you can do to find out if there are places that would be open to hiring even if they don’t currently have a position posted? I know my current company has done that a couple of times, we don’t really advertise it, but word kind of gets around.

        1. Hopefully l*

          Unfortunately, I don’t really have any connections in my field. I am currently in an admin position in a completely different field. I also moved to my current location from out-of-state about a year and a half ago and I don’t really know many people.

          1. zora*

            Yeah, this is tough, I’m kind of in a similar situation.

            But I’m finding it much easier after I’ve started meeting people, even just as a little morale boost that there are other cool people out there working at other companies. Are there any networking groups you could start to go to, or industry panels? I’ve found some on Meetup.com and jsut by searching events on sites like Eventbrite. Or, make phone dates with people in your field in your old location?

            I don’t know just throwing some ideas out there in case they spark anything. But good luck!

    4. Seeking Second Childhood*

      I could use this. I am having trouble getting started, even though I hit my last straw months ago. I’ve been at the same company for 20 years, so there’s a lot of inertia to overcome. Plus disappointment in the way the company changed over time.

  88. PolarVortex*

    I’m looking to become a service dog trainer – not therapy dog – something my neighbors did when I was young that I’ve always wanted to do, and I’m a prior dog owner as well. Before I apply though, I want to make sure I have everything sorted with my apartment building (perfectly fine) and my workplace. While the building I work in itself doesn’t seem to have a problem with the service dog, and HR does not seem to be concerned either, my direct manager has thrown up some flags. It should be noted my work actually has had people with service dogs working here, although I know that’s different than training.

    To be fair, my manager has the habit of going full devil’s advocate on everything, questioning to the minutest detail. But they seem very worried that having a service dog in training – part of which is having them learn how to be calm and patient in workplace – will interfere with my job. Yet, nothing about my job is anything but flexible. I’m salaried, regularly work odd hours due to my job without any fuss, and very rarely need to be in situations where it’s life or death if I’m not at 100% attention. I’m also not in any kind of situation where I am not completing my work.

    I guess my question is twofold: are there any concrete ways I can help assure my manager this is not an issue, and is there anyone out there who’s done service dog training that can speak to the impact it will have on your work/work environment. I would really like to be able to move forward with this as I’m passionate about it, but as the commitment to raise this dog is intensive, I want to ensure I’ll provide the best environment for it first, and that means getting my work on board.

    1. fposte*

      So it sounds like you’re talking about being what’s usually termed volunteer puppy raiser, fostering a service dog puppy through the first 14-18 months. Is that correct? I’m possibly interested in that in a few years myself. Is there a specific program you’re looking at volunteering with? They may have some information that would be useful for your workplace. I’d also make sure you’re ready in manager discussion and in office planning for the “puppy” part of this–they could be as young as 8 weeks old, and they’ll need frequent potty breaks and help developing their wee little attention spans.

      One thing you could try with your manager is asking what they would need to see in a proposal to get to yes. It sounds like right now they’re just vaguely worried, so it might help to concretize to minimize the moving goalposts effect.

      Good luck! I hope you do this; I’d love to hear about it if you do.

      1. valentine*

        If the idea is for the dog to be there all day, you’re asking to be paid to do a second job and neither will have enough of your attention. This seems more like something you’d do as a main job while having other work you can readily pick up and put down as the dog requires. There is also the issue of colleagues who will be upset they can’t interact with the dog, like that one letter, and who may sabotage you by interacting with them while you’re away from your desk.

        Do you have a plan for meetings and phobic or averse colleagues? (I’m mainly thinking of the letter where the dog-phobic person couldn’t be on the same floor.)

        1. fposte*

          If they’ve already got service dogs, though, it sounds like an existing template can be modified. (BTW, people aren’t generally paid for raising service dogs; in fact they’re often donating a lot of their own money, depending on the organization, for costs.)

      2. PolarVortex*

        Thanks for your help, it’s actually a 2-2.5 year commitment, hence me working to get my job on board. I’ll not only be doing the puppy raising part, but the full training until placement with the person in need of a service dog. I’m familiar with the group that I’d be working with, they offer some advice but cannot do much in the way of getting a company to say yes.

        I do live near work, so it’s possible for me to flex work at home as needed – and our office has an official flex time policy about allowing work from home.

        I like your idea of asking what it would take to say yes, I’ll start there, and keep everyone updated!

        (Fingers crossed I get to share a picture of an adorable puppy sometime soon.)

    2. No Tribble At All*

      Omg! My coworker is training a service dog right now! So far Dog has only been in the office twice: once on a Sunday afternoon, for about 5 minutes, and once on a Friday evening, after work hours, for about 15 minutes. He’s working with an organization, who provided the dog, supplies, insurance, and training for him too. Their organization does a graduated approach– you don’t just bring the dog in for a whole day all at once. So he’s brought in the dog twice during off-hours and will work up to a full day.

      It helps that CoWorker lives close by, so he can easily bring the dog in for short periods of time, and when the dog starts being annoying, he can take her home without too much disruption to her day. Most of his dog-socialization happens at not the office (Home Depot, parks, other businesses) so they can expose the dog to lots of new situations. So far the dog isn’t ready for the office at normal office hours. Coworker has also said when he’s ready to bring the dog in, he’ll send out a building-wide email basically like “yes, there’s a dog, no, don’t pet the dog when she has her vest on” but since your building already has service dogs, it sounds like the humans are well-behaved.

      If you like, I can give you the name of the org he works with (east coast USA). He didn’t have any prior dog experience. The org teaches them basic commands and gives them to trainers when they’re 4-5 months old; the full training takes about a year after that.

      Honestly the most distracting part of this is all of us constantly badger him for pictures of the dog.

  89. OTGW*

    I’m going to attend a conference in a couple weeks. I work at a public library but I’m not a librarian. My job is mostly customer service. The conference is geared towards librarians, however I wanted to attend cause I might be doing this as a career and also I wanted to know what it’s like as I’ve never done a conference before. So my question is any tips or tricks to, ah, survive? Make contacts? How to talk to people who have way more experience than me? Many thanks!

    1. PolarVortex*

      FWIW:
      1) Everyone is always willing to bond over bad customer service stories, it’s a great way to commiserate and build allies.
      2) Be open that you’re looking into getting your degree in Library Science, talk about what programs you’re considering, what they did when getting their degree.
      3) Genres and books. Haven’t met anyone working in a library yet who wasn’t madly in love with some kind of literature.
      4) “Hi I’m OTGW, I’m here to learn more about x (i’m looking forward to this lecture on y because of z), I’m a TITLE at LIBRARY in LOCATION, where are you from? (Do have you attended before? What do you think about y lecture?)”

      Don’t worry about sounding cliche, everyone at a conference is doing the same thing seen at #4 because besides people who work together or who have been attending this conference for decades, there’s new faces for everyone.

      1. OTGW*

        Thank you! Lol, bad customer service stories are fun to share. And thanks for the reassurance about sounding cliche. That’s definitely a worry hanging over. But I will definitely remember these talking points.

    2. Blueberry Girl*

      First rule of conferences: You can skip every lecture, panel, whatever. Do not skip a single social event. Go to all of them. That’s where you meet people.

      Second rule of conferences: Try to come up with questions or simple small talk you can make with people. As someone thinking of going into librarianship, this is a prime time to ask people questions like, “I’m thinking of going to library school. How did you get into librarianship? Do you have an advice?” I promise people have advice.

      Third rule of conferences: Take care of yourself. Wear comfortable shoes. Eat. Take a break and see some sights. Conferences are super mentally exhausting and you need to give yourself some space to decompress and deal with the stress of being at one.

      Fourth rule of conferences: Take business cards and notes and follow up with people afterward. A quick email just saying how nice it was to speak with them and thanking them for their advice, whatever, means you have an IN if you ever have more questions. Plus it’s a nice thing to do.

      1. fposte*

        This is super-solid, Blueberry Girl. I’d add, OGTW, that people at library conferences tend to be very happy to chat with and advise newbies; that’s the kind of people who get into the profession in the first place. So really do feel free to connect with somebody based solely on their name badge; your hit rate may not be 100% but it’s likely to be pretty high.

        1. OTGW*

          Thank you! Yeah, that’s one thing I like about libraries is that we all seem to be pretty friendly. Definitely one of the reasons I might be doing this career-wise.

        2. Mellow*

          Hard disagree that point one is “super solid.”

          As someone who IS a librarian, as opposed to someone thinking about going into it, while it is important to network and socialize, OTGW, you should attend at least one or two panels or sessions, as they typically cover current and emergent developments in librarianship. Don’t shortchange yourself by underestimating the knowledge you can gain from those, and the ways in which that knowledge could pay off in the near future.

          If anything, see Academic Librarian Department Head’s and Librarian of Shield’s comments. Listen to/talk with actual librarians.

      2. OTGW*

        Thank you for the advice! And for the reminder to take care of myself. I will keep in mind about the social events and the business cards!

    3. Academic Libarian Department Head.*

      Don’t be afraid to pop into a session and within 5 minutes find that it has nothing to do with what you do or are interested. Just leave and go to a different panel. Small talk- how did you get your job? What do you wish you had known before embarking on this career. What was the most difficult public service experience? There may be library schools exhibiting. Find out about fellowships or stipends or scholarships.

      1. OTGW*

        Ooh I didn’t think about fellowships and such, thank you! And I appreciate the advice to just leave. I’m afraid some stuff might be boring, but I was worried about getting stuck.

    4. Librarian of SHIELD*

      If this is the kind of library conference where there will be an exhibit hall with giveaways, plan ahead but don’t go crazy. My usual plan is to pack some snacks in my suitcase (granola bars, pop-tarts, etc., all still in their boxes). This takes up a chunk of space that will be free for the trip home. Now I’ve got a place to put the free books/tote bags I got from the visiting publishers! Use a backpack or a messenger bag on conference days instead of a normal purse, so you’ll be able to carry around your handouts/notes from sessions and any publisher giveaways you get.

      Also, bring a refillable water bottle. It’s not always easy to find a place to grab something to drink and conference centers are like movie theaters and sports arenas in terms of food and beverage prices, because they know they’ve got a captive (and hungry/thirsty) audience.

      Take business cards if you have them, and friend/follow the most interesting new people you meet on social media. Most of all, just get to know people. Librarians like to be helpful, and we’re always happy to welcome someone new to our ranks!

      1. Librarian of SHIELD*

        Also: if you have an external battery charger for your phone, bring it. If you don’t, pack a power strip. Electrical outlets at conferences are gold, and one sure fire way to make friends is to be the person who can provide someone else with a place to charge their gadgetry.

        1. Academic Librarian*

          All of what Librarian of Shield said AND
          Comfortable shoes!
          An outlet extender that plugs in and let’s more than one person charge will make you Friends.
          Dress. Depends on the location but it doesn’t hurt to wear business casual as you might be meeting prospective employers. On the other hand library people rock all sorts of attire.

  90. Overwhelmed*

    How do you balance asking for help and being independent when it’s really difficult to reach the people who can answer your questions?

    I agreed to take on some new, somewhat intimidating responsibilities, and was assured at the time that I would have access to support and training. However, the people who can answer my questions or approve the things I need to do are very busy and it’s hard to reach them. My calls always go to voicemail, and my voicemails and emails often go unanswered indefinitely. This makes it difficult to perform my job, and I feel incompetent. I don’t feel like I’m asking an excessive number of questions, but it’s hard when I’m asked to do something I’ve never done before and I don’t find the policy and procedure info that I have access to be very clear.

    1. Blueberry Girl*

      I don’t know the answer to this, but as someone going through the same thing, I am going to watch this thread closely.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      1) Let your manager know, in detail, with request for advice: “I need info on X, I tried to reach A, B, C on such n such dates by phone / email, and I have no answer. Can you suggest what to try next?”
      2) Save up questions and ask for a weekly meeting with A, B, C to go through them, for the next 3 weeks

      1. Overwhelmed*

        Thanks. I think I’ll try this. It’s been hard because my manager isn’t that familiar with the procedures and I think he’s used to just getting things to happen…because I used to pass these requests along to someone with more experience, who had more of a direct line to the people I’m now working with. It’s also hard to anticipate when work will come up, which made it hard to plan ahead (I thought I’d have a month or more before I’d have to use some of these new skills, but I ended up getting thrown into it sooner).

        I have started trying to give my boss updates on what I’ve done and what I’m still waiting on.

    3. Middle Manager*

      One thing I’ll do is say something along the lines of- “here is my plan. summarize plan. If you have any feedback or would like me to go in a different direction, please let me know by DATE/TIME.” That can be harder if you are new and not trained, so maybe aren’t fully capable of coming up with a plan, but for things where you know what needs to happen, but want sign off from someone, it can work.

  91. Just a little grumpy*

    Starting to struggle a little bit with my abilities, skills and how they’re not being used.
    Backstory: Was hired to do fundraising and admin. This includes setting up a database. During the summer the teapot theatre is super busy, as is my boss. The things I wanted to work on got put on the backburner, and my focus was more supporting everyone else. I had a few hours once a month to work on the database, and those hours were usually partly a refresher of what I had been doing. And was told it wouldn’t be possible to get the distraction-free time to focus on it, even though we were past deadline for getting things up and running.
    Fast-forward to the fall. I’m trying to work on the database, but again, back to the beginning in terms of what needs to be done, and trying to work with a consultant who is busy with lots of things. My boss has taken on the teapot uploads to the database because she’s been involved with the project since the beginning, and I’m back to support and data entry.
    It’s hard coming into an organization during the busy season, and it’s hard knowing you have the skills and knowledge to do different things, but aren’t afforded the opportunity even when I offer to help.
    Not really looking for advice… just grumpy and feeling like I’m taken for granted, no matter how much I’m told I’m appreciated. And there aren’t a lot of opps for my skillset, as we’re in a rural area.
    Doing my best, offering to help where I can, but alas… :P

  92. Shiny*

    I’m coming up on a month of unemployment. I’ve been looking seriously for over 4 months now, and I have a pretty good response rate–I’d say about 1 in 6 applications has turned into at least a phone interview, and I’ve been a finalist for a number of positions. But I haven’t clinched one, and my field is in quite a bit of turmoil right now, with funding tightening for a number of reasons. It’s also the end of the fiscal year, and I’m in a niche role within a not-particularly-large industry. I don’t know that I have a specific questions, just looking for advice, encouragement, suggestions, etc.

    1. zora*

      Can you look at tangential industries that you could possibly switch into that might have more options? Like companies that are your suppliers or customers? I understand if you’ve put a lot of time into your niche role and you like it, but it might be worth it to move to a sector that has more opportunities for you in the future.

  93. Working and Wedding*

    Happy Friday all! I got engaged Wednesday evening- I’m still in a happiness bubble. After telling all the family and friends I need to in person or calls, I’m slowly getting used to being engaged, and starting to think about planning a wedding. How do folks who are working a Monday-Friday 9-5 job do it? Do you set aside a couple of days a week after work? Spend all weekend looking at venues and invitations? Help!

    2. CupcakeCounter*

      If you can afford it, look into a wedding coordinator. They will do a lot of the leg work by asking you able styles and ideas you have and narrowing down the enormous amount of options out there to the ones you will be most interested in.

      Otherwise, yes weekends. Most wedding related places are open evenings and weekends. And think about the weddings you’ve attended that you’ve loved and what you really didn’t like. Pinterest can be a blessing and a black hole to be specific in your searches.

    3. Donkey Hotey*

      First and foremost – congratulations. Best to you both.

      Second and almost nearly as important: for the love of all that is holy, please do not plan your wedding on company time. Very few things will breed resentment faster.

      From personal experience: When we got married, my partner and I created a timeline, divided the tasks, and set aside an hour or two a night after dinner and dishes. With a good time schedule and due diligence, you can certainly get it done. (And we were lucky in that we often carpooled to our offices, so we could swing by places on our way home after work.)

    4. Daydreaming*

      Congratulations!!! That’s so exciting!
      When I was planning my wedding, I did some brainstorming at first, usually in the evening, and worked with a venue that would handle most of the logistics – decorating, set-up, coordinating the evening. It helped a lot. I did a few crafty things for the reception, but didn’t get quite as “DIY” as some brides I know. I got a lot of ideas from The Offbeat Bride website. :)
      Think about how fancy you want things, what you’re willing to invest time in, and what you’re willing to leave out. Most of the minute details that the wedding industry pushes on brides-to-be are things that most people wouldn’t even notice. Look at planning checklists as a framework and do what is most important to you.
      The most important thing: Enjoy every minute. Especially on the day of – make sure you take time for you and your hubby, take time to breathe, and to take in everything. It’s a celebration and meant to be a lot of fun and not a lot of unnecessary stress.

    5. Sharkie*

      I have quite a few friends planning weddings right now and they all have a different style. I think it mostly it depends on the size of the wedding.
      One of my friends does everything on nights and weekends- she is getting married in 18 months I think and is around the 150-200 mark
      another friend hired a planner and does stuff on the weekend as well- she is having a year-long engagement and about 300ish people (they both come from large Irish Catholic families so about 150 of those are close family members 0_0)
      My coworker had a small wedding (100ish people) and was able to knock it out on weekends only (still browsed Pinterest at lunch)
      All the weddings were unique and beautiful. Honestly, it depends on what you want. CONGRATS

    6. CheeryO*

      Congrats! Not going through it myself, but my next-door cube neighbor has been in wedding planning mode for the last year. I think taking the occasional quick call is fine and probably necessary, but otherwise, it’s probably best to keep it to your lunch or off-hours. I think that’s where it’s beneficial if you can enlist some helpers, whether that’s your partner, your maid of honor/best man, your parents, whatever.

    7. Dana B.S.*

      It depends on how long you’re planning on being engaged. I insisted on at least a year personally. You’ll want to consider what will work best for your relationship as well as what the lead times are for booking vendors in the area that you want to get married in.

    8. Joielle*

      Congrats! When I got married, my now-husband and I split tasks basically down the middle. Everything was organized in shared Google Docs. We mostly did things at night or during lunch. Some people go all in and make wedding into practically a part-time job, but you honestly don’t have to do that – nobody will look back on your wedding and think “Hm, nice wedding, but I would have had more fun if the flowers were fancier.” Just pick things you like and go with it, don’t feel like you need to look at EVERY venue or EVERY invitation out there. And don’t over commit to DIY projects, they can be SUCH a time-suck for not a lot of payoff. Especially for favors! Back away from the tiny bows, they take forever and nobody will even notice them. :)

      For me, the key was keeping perspective on which things are important and which really aren’t, in the scheme of things. I recommend the website A Practical Wedding for both wedding and marriage advice!

      We were engaged for 8 months, got married on a Friday in March, and it sounds cheesy but our friends still (literally, almost 5 years later) talk about how fun it was, so I think we did fine! :)

    9. EddieSherbert*

      Seconding the others saying to plan it out, and (for the love of everything!) have your partner *help.*

      The OffBeat Bride website has an AMAZING wedding planner template. It saved my butt a hundred times, minimum. I’ll link in the next comment.

      If you want/enjoy parental assistance, your mom or future-mother-in-law might be great resources too (both of mine are SUPER crafty and I gladly handed over a lot of decorating projects like centerpieces… which also kept them busy and out of my hair on other things).

    10. Cedrus Libani*

      I’m getting married this spring. My partner and I both have demanding jobs, and also the wedding’s on the other side of the country for family reasons, so there’s a second (and even larger, though less formal) wedding reception happening where we actually live. Head count is ~70 for wedding and ~150 for local reception.

      I didn’t want to be That Girl who sits around the office all day looking at wedding cakes on Pinterest. It’s not a good look. We did our venue-browsing, etc at home – also, that way we could have a conversation about it, figure out what the other person’s must-haves and nice-to-haves were, and cut down the list accordingly. I’ve had to duck out for a phone call on a couple of occasions, but it’s well within normal limits.

      We are also willing to make compromises in the interest of expediency. “But it’s my special day, it has to be perfect!” Hogwash. What did the centerpieces look like at the last wedding you attended? If there was a bride, could you pick her dress out of a lineup? Yeah, that’s what I thought. Guests want plenty of food and drink, good company, and a comfortable place to sit. We’re making sure that stuff happens. The rest is graded pass/fail.

      (His cousin sent us his wedding spreadsheet, and…yikes. For the photographer alone, there were 163 (!!!) vendors listed, along with pricing, a paragraph-long review of their portfolio, and a rating from 0-5 stars. I have a job, people! One I want to keep. I’m sure our wedding photos will be slightly less awesome than theirs, but I’m also very sure there are diminishing returns on this kind of nonsense.)

      We shelled out for a memorable venue. We also shelled out for a full-service caterer that will basically set the whole place up for us. All we have to do is write the check and then show up the day of. We’re not doing flowers, we’re not doing attendants / flower girls / etc (our parents will be the witnesses), and there is a ZERO percent chance that I will be sitting around at 4 am the night before weeping over a half-finished pile of decorations.

      We have shared Google Docs to keep track of all the assorted details. It’s a lot to deal with. But mostly, what’s saving our sanity is a shared commitment to being Good Enough vs Perfect.

      Also, we’ve pulled in some help. My mom is a retired event planner, she lives in the area, and frankly she would have gone stir-crazy if I didn’t give her something to do. She went to check out the venue for us before we signed the contract, and she’s also handling the rehearsal dinner and the night before / morning of stuff.

  94. Jamie*

    I have control issues which I usually manage to keep under control (ha) but now…my Pandora’s box of anxiety is wide open.

    I have an ISO recertification/scope expansion audit Monday. We’re about as ready as we’re gonna be, just taking care of some last minute obsessive double checking today.

    This used to be what I was good at, but I’ve had a feeling for a while it’s more than just my shaken confidence getting in the way. In my previous work life when I did this it was my system they were auditing. I built it (with buy in and feedback of course) from the ground up. It may not have been perfect, but it was very good and I KNEW it like the back of my hand. I was intimately familiar with every part because I created it. Over the years as the system grew it all went through me so I felt ownership of the QMS, for better or for worse.

    I’ve been at this new place for a few months. This QMS is fine and I’ve made a some upgrades, but it’s not mine. It’s not my baby…I don’t know it by rote.

    The last auditor they had let them skate on so much people are in a false sense of security because they aren’t used to typical scrutiny. We have a new auditor this time so a lot of unknowns.

    Even with my old system I’d get super squirrely before an external audit because I can only control so much and always the fear of a surprise bed sh*tting incident…but this has me rethinking every career choice I’ve ever made.

    My self-soothing mechanism is to dig into minutia and overcomplicate things…which is the absolute worst thing I could do right now.

    My goals in my past audits were to impress the hell out of the auditor(s), now it’s just to not lose my job (it’s the anxiety talking, but my anxiety is super chatty today.)

    Anyone want to go out for lunch and get something unhealthy, but comforting?

    1. Colette*

      I’m in! :)

      (They’re unlikely to fire the person most qualified to fix any issues the audit finds, you know.)

      1. Jamie*

        I never thought of that – maybe that will shut up the voice in my head for a while.

        I’m thinking Impossible Whopper at BK!

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      Today is apparently both National Queso Day and National Pepperoni Pizza Day, so I will def join you for unhealthy-but-comforting.

      Good luck!

  95. MixedDrinks*

    Posted last week about coworker who got their vacation request denied due to them being out of PTO since some of the reason they were low was due to sick related leave before their FMLA kicked in earlier this year. As a reminder, this coworker was able to take several actual vacations this year (both paid and unpaid) but their choice in activities triggered their chronic illness resulting in them having to take a significant amount of time off after the vacation to recover (for example they would take off Thursday and Friday for the festival that ran Friday through Sunday and then would end up taking Monday – Thursday as FMLA medical leave the next week as their activities at the festival were major triggers).
    Coworker turned in their resignation this week. They are giving slightly more than 2 weeks and have no job lined up. Their last day happens to be the day before the dates they requested off. They have also decided to make it widely known how terrible the company and their supervisor was. Several of us had considered being references since they did do excellent work but we have all changed our minds based on this attitude. When another coworker decided to be blunt with them about why it was a no, soon-to-be-ex coworker was really upset and started accusing is all of being sell-outs and discriminating against people with disabilities. That did not go over well with the team and now ex-coworker is claiming the “hostile work environment” is triggering their condition and they need to be released from their notice period but still paid through the entire thing.

    1. Colette*

      I hope the company has good lawyers. The only thing that makes this seem legit is that the coworker was out of PTO – but the coworker is allowed to do things they enjoy even at the expense of their health. There’s plenty of behavior with ties to health issues, and people are still allowed to do them. (If she used up her PTO because she ran marathons and needed days to recover from training/sprained ankles/etc., would her vacation have been denied?)

      1. Jamie*

        I’m curious as to where the line is drawn on that.

        I worked at a place where they fired someone who was in a physical job because he was constantly coming into work unable to perform his duties due to injuries he got from ultimate fighting. I might have the name wrong but the one where they fight in cages without boxing gloves or rules.

        I always wondered where the legal line is on that.

        1. Colette*

          And I do think that it’s legitimate to say that you need to use your leisure time in a way that means you are able to work most of the days you’re supposed to work, but at the same time, when sick time and vacation time is in the same bucket, it’s reasonable to be prepared to figure out a way to get someone a vacation when they’re sick.

          It just sounds like in this case there was some judgement going on about the disability being self-inflicted, which is extremely iffy, IMO.

          1. fposte*

            Yeah, I think it’s mostly that the employer needs somebody to be able to perform the duties of their job, and too often they can’t perform the duties of the job. With an ADA-covered condition you’d extend that to “can’t perform the duties of the job even with accommodation,” but the law doesn’t require you accommodate somebody’s weekend MMA tastes.

            1. valentine*

              I really feel for this person and they know best about their disability. There’s a lot of policing in the situation that wouldn’t necessarily be applied to currently able-bodied people, like the letters from the person annoyed their diabetic coworker kept needing paramedic aid and the manager who was sure their employee could manage their pain with PT and something else they’d stopped.

              Your employer should just release them, pay out the notice, and be done. This is a “Cheaper to pay with money” situation.

          2. MixedDrinks*

            They have already taken real vacations this year – two paid and one unpaid that was granted because of the sick/vacation all in one bucket that they lost because of waiting for FMLA to kick in. Company even let coworker borrow ahead of their accrual (so technically they should owe the company for 3 months of vacation that was prepaid out but company will not go after it or dock final paycheck for the owed time because of the circumstances) which is against company policy.
            There is a lot of judgement because while we know the illness is very real and have a lot of sympathy, they are very open about how these particular festivals they like to attend completely wipe them out and the heat, lights, lack of sleep, and alcohol are all significant triggers. They’ve made it crystal clear that they know that if they attend, they are useless for at least 3-4 days (they made a joke before they left for the last one that “well – see you all in two weeks!”) after but never preemptively take that time off when putting in the original PTO request because they consider that time off part of their FMLA unpaid, protected medical leave. If it was once a year and they put in a PTO request for the 3 days of the festival as well as the 3 days of recovery time I think it would be different but this is the 3rd festival this year they have requested time off for.
            That’s why people are so mixed on how they feel about this. The company, supervisor, and other workers want to be as sympathetic as possible and have made many concessions but it feels like we are dealing with the consequences of their illness more than they are due to coverage issues.

      3. Librarian of SHIELD*

        The vacation request wasn’t denied because of the absences related to her illness, though. It was denied because she’s out of vacation time. And it sound’s like this company doesn’t require staff to use their paid time off while they’re on FMLA, which is something every employer I’ve had has required. So their absences related to the FMLA documented illness didn’t even count against the rest of the time off.

        It’s really, really reasonable for a company to decide how many absences they’re willing to approve for each employee, and this employee has used all of hers. It feels pretty cut and dried to me.

      4. Eleanor Konik*

        …yes? Vacation days are part of PTO (PTO is vacation + sick). If you’re out of time, you’re out of time, and that’s why your vacation got denied. That’s how the whole PTO system works. If you got super sick a bunch of times for random reasons and never took a vacation, and were out of PTO, you … would still get your vacation denied.

    2. Head down on desk*

      I had something very similar happen to me as a supervisor. There was zero recourse for the bad mouthing. People felt free to speak directly to me about MY bad management skills. I could say nothing in response. My supervisor in an all staff meeting requested that anyone who had questions about the separation speak directly to her. No one did. Four years later, my work has stood the test of time but I still have flashbacks .o

      1. Head down on desk*

        There was no denial of vacation in this case. FMLA is not endless. The person chose to resign but made it seem like they were forced out.

      2. MixedDrinks*

        Luckily for this supervisor, everyone knows the situation so no one is bad mouthing her. People wish there was some additional accommodations she could make (because coworker is a likable person and good at their core job) but completely understand that they have already used a lot of capital getting this person a PTO “loan” and allowing unpaid vacation. Still sucks to hear it though.

    3. MixedDrinks*

      Update:
      Supervisor did talk with HR about releasing the employee early with pay but due to the PTO “loan” they took earlier in the summer that was nixed. Soon-to-be-ex coworker was informed that if they did not work out their notice period, the company would go after the amount due back to the company for the PTO they took before they had actually accrued it per the written agreement that was drawn up. Company was prepared to write it off as the cost of doing business (has happened before which is why they changed the policy that you can’t do that but have made concessions on a case by case basis). Luckily for supervisor she did not have to give that news – the head of HR and the benefits/FMLA administrator handed that conversation.

  96. Grace*

    An interview was not followed by an offer or rejection, as was expected, but with an invitation to a more informal get-together with the team after work at the pub. This is the UK, so a team get-together at the pub isn’t a red flag? But like, this is a positive sign, right? I’ve already met most of the team but not all, so I’m guessing this is an opportunity to meet the others.

    An informal meeting people get-together like that would be fairly likely to not be followed by a rejection, right, unless I really screw up and get blind drunk or something? Please reassure a new grad. (Don’t worry, I know my alcohol limits and dislike getting drunk – I can behave professionally.)

    1. Weegie*

      I’ve never heard of such a thing – I’ve experienced personally and have heard of others having to interview all or most of a day, including lunch, presumably to see how the candidate behaves in a slightly more informal setting, but a pub get-together? That’s a new one. I don’t know what to make of it – proceed with caution.

  97. Barefoot Librarian*

    So my daughter oldest daughter is graduating in May with a Bachelors in Business and, as an academic librarian, I feel completely out of my depth with helping her job hunt or even know where to look for jobs (aside from your standard job listing sites). She’s done some internships, but doesn’t have a particular company or role in mind. She thinks she might be interested in business analytics, something with travel, or maybe recruiting (one of her internships had her matching candidates up with temp jobs).

    How do new business grads find jobs?

    1. Dana B.S.*

      The university’s Career Center should be able to help! They might have an email list which sends out blasts for any company recruiting on campus. Companies often host informational sessions and interviews on campus. It’s also job fair season (there will be one in the spring too), so she definitely needs to go explore those! They often send employees in the roles that they are looking to fill to job fairs, so it’s a good opportunity to ask questions about the job itself.

      Now for your role – just be as supportive as possible. Make sure you highlight that it’s normal to take a while to find a good fit – both for her and a company! On yesterday’s Ask-the-Readers post, there are some great comments about adjusting to post-college life that you could also pass along to her.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        +1 Career center and job fairs. I got into my current employer due to a career fair at my school.

        Identifying an industry that she’s interested in would help her a lot. Business analytics is pretty hot, so any consulting companies would be interesting and definitely include travel: McKensie, Accenture, PricewaterhouseCoopers, Cisco, HP, IBM, Deloitte, Boston Consulting Group, Gartner. Since she’s female, she might want to look at the less traditional consulting companies, like Cisco / IBM. IBM’s female CEO shows a pretty good example of support for diversity.

        Other than that, I hear the online job boards are pretty good. If she knows an area of interest like, say, local government, she could look for Analyst positions with them.

        1. Barefoot Librarian*

          Thank you so much, Jules and Dana! She’s at a career fair right now actually, so at least she’s on the right track in that regard. I just had to talk to her out of wearing blue jeans with her button up shirt. I think she might have seen me as a bit of a fuddy duddy for that but my thought is that it’s better to be overdressed than under even if the companies have a reputation for being causal. I also bought her Alison’s book on finding a job and will pass these tips on to her!

          1. Dana B.S.*

            Good call. I always went a little bit below business formal for job fairs because I’m in Texas and it’s too hot for all those layers. The job fairs were always in a building on the opposite side of my giant campus. I would see classmates in full suits though.

  98. New Manager*

    What advice do you have when first meeting with a new employee? I’ve been in a new position for about six months. This is the first time I’m supervising someone. Unfortunately, the position I supervise has been vacant most of the time I’ve been here. So finally my employee is starting in 2 weeks! I’m looking for help on my approach. How do you convey expectations right off the bat? What types of things are important to bring up now?

  99. Tiiired*

    You ever want to screech “I told you so!” to your business partner because they planned a big project poorly, and they rejected all of your ideas that would make the project go smoother, and now the deadline is only a workday away and you only have 1/6 of the data? And you’ve been cleaning after their trash for enough time to get sick of it, so now you’re just watching from the sidelines, curious as to how your business partner will solve this?

    Am I petty for refusing to talk first to them (again)? In the past, I’ve done enough asking and telling them that I’m here to assist! And yet I’ve never been involved, despite being a ‘co-founder’ haha… there’s just the two of us btw. I’m going to resign next month. I feel like I’m done being disregarded and doing thankless job, like, very very done.

    1. Micro-Business Owner*

      So… I think it’s fine to stay on the sidelines regarding the current project, given what you are saying about wanting to dissolve the partnership within a month. If you’ve already made that decision, then that’s what it is.

      I don’t know if this will help, but after seeing a few people have business partnerships that went south, I heard the advice to essentially think of a business partnership (I’m assuming you mean that you co-own the company) as a marriage. It’s a big commitment and a costly bitch to dissolve it. So, if you aren’t 100% out the door already, you might want to think about a sit-down conversation like you would in a relationship. “X, Y, and Z aren’t working for me. It’s causing damage to our profitability/reputation/whatever. I’m considering needing to leave/dissolve our partnership unless XYZ change.” See if you can reach agreement and go forward. But if you’re ready for divorce, then that’s that.

      And if you don’t actually co-own the company… you don’t have as much leverage. You could try. But it may end up that you were just jerked around and that sucks. But on the upside, it’s legally far easier to walk away if you weren’t married to it.

  100. Madam Director*

    I hardly ever comment but today I have a could-have-been-bad-but-not story for your amusement today. Anyone else have close calls like this?

    I’m a non-profit director and Tuesday I was texting a donor about setting up a meeting. I used speak-to-text and meant for it to say “Is six okay?” but the stupid phone wrote “Is sex okay?” Thank goodness I checked it first before sending. Our budget problems aren’t THAT bad.

    1. Narvo Flieboppen*

      I once made an entry, in records reviewed by auditors (internal & external) which was supposed to specify time our CEO & HR manager spent together on a call regarding a sexual harassment case. I oopsied it, and the records cannot be changed once saved, so it is forever noted in our system as ‘[CEO] & [HR Manager] sex call’.

      And yes, this was pulled in audits. Twice. Fortunately, I had good notes and management at the time was better than what we have now, so explanations were given, laughs were had at Narvo’s expense, and everyone moved on.

    2. Joielle*

      I once got an email from someone I was working with on a used book sale that said “I’ll stop by for your boobs tomorrow afternoon.” Obviously, it was meant to be books, but he was mortified. It was hilarious.

    3. nym*

      I texted a colleague this week about how I had to traipse through the loading dick to get to the handicapped accessible elevator.

      *loading dock* that is. ooops.

  101. Fikly*

    Having a bit of an internal debate about being semi-out at work. My company uses Slack, and there’s a mix of work focused channels and more social channels.

    There was just an announcement (turns out they make it annually) reminding people that there’s a LGBTQIA Slack channel, and to Slack a specific person for an invite. I don’t think you have to disclose your orientation to join, just that you are not straight. I am asexual. Traditionally, the LGBT community has not been the most welcoming to asexuals (not trying to get into a debate here about if this is truth, or why) and so I tend to hesitate even around the LGBT community about disclosing beyond “not straight.” However, this channel was referred to as LGBTQIA, rather than just LGBT, so maybe that’s a good sign.

    Also, my company does work heavily (though not exclusively) with LGBT populations, and I’ve never heard anything unsupportive from anyone. But, still, part of me hesitates. Am I just being paranoid? I wouldn’t be disclosing company wide, I’d be Slacking the person who runs the channel, and then only disclosing to people on the channel. I’ve been there for around 7 months, for context.

    1. Patricia*

      Asexual here too and I totally understand this feeling. I don’t really have an answer myself, but you’re not alone in this struggle.

    2. Dasein9*

      Seems like you should be able to join and just listen for a while before deciding whether it’s a safe space for you.

    3. Brownie*

      Maybe start with a Slack message asking if the A stands for Ally or for Ace/Aro first? That’s the first feeler I use to see if anything labeled LGBTQIA is going to be a safe place for me. If they say ally then I know to go in as a “straight” ally first to scope things out because that’s a warning flag. It’s usually not a question that raises rumors or gossip either, so it helps to keep your identity secret if you don’t want to come out in that space yet.

    4. Arielle*

      I don’t know if this helps at all because it’s obviously going to depend on the people in the group, but I am a member of a similar Slack channel and no one has ever asked me for any information about my orientation that I wasn’t willing to disclose, or has asked for some kind of queer credentials to join the group. As a cis bi woman married to a cis man I’ve had similar qualms about being accepted in the LGBT community but the group at my work, at least, is very inclusive and supportive.

    5. Spargle*

      Do you WANT to join this channel? To me your comment reads as you’re feeling some kind of obligation to join it, but do you actually want to? I personally don’t join every LGBT+ community around me because I only have so much time (and lbr we can be fairly dramatic).

      And I second the suggestion to find out what the A stands for, if you do want to join the channel. imo, “ally” or “allies” shouldn’t be included in the acronym, because they are by definition not LGBT+.

      1. Phoenix Programmer*

        I always thought that when ally was included it was to denote that, well, allies are welcome to join?

        Not all LGBT groups want allies in the mix (which is cool) but it’s nice to have a signaler for that.

        Sometimes I feel like a real ass when I am like “Are Allies welcome?” It’s nice when it’s clear on the poster yay or nay.

        1. LawBee*

          A doesn’t stand for Ally by default – Asexual. You should always ask if it’s not clear, although in my experience the LGBT+ groups I’ve been a part of made it explicit when allies were invited, and the default was that they were not.

          Allies are great, we need them. But they can no more understand what it’s like to be queer than I (a white woman) can understand what it’s like to be a person of color, and it’s nice not to have to explain.

  102. Surviving Obnoxious Coworkers*

    How do you tolerate working with someone you despise?

    I’m an adult (or so I’m told), but I work occasionally with a Grade A mansplainer who has been nothing but obstructive and condescending since I started here 6 months ago.

    My boss and grandboss both know of this behavior and have tried to neuter him as much as possible, but he reports to a different division than grandboss.

    I need coping mechanisms because I can only do so much avoidance. I physically feel queasy when I have to work with him. (Some of this is PTSD from my former job that enabled and actively encouraged a mansplainer who took over my job while I was out on maternity leave. Still angry about that. And yes! I’m going to therapy. Just looking for a stop-gap measure.)

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      I am stone, I am water….

      I work with someone I don’t like. When I have to interact with them, I set my face in careful, practiced ‘resting smile face’ : calm but slight smile. This is my stone mask and my shield. This mask is all they get, because it’s all they deserve. Always, 100% of the time.

      When we have to speak, purely professional words get professional responses. Unprofessional words (usually complaints about perfectly fine people) get non-responses and withdrawal, maybe a ‘not my experience’ if it’s egregious enough. I avoid engaging with them on the problematic behavior, flowing away, refusing to get pinned down.

      For a mansplainer, non-engaging would be letting him spout his stuff for a bit then saying, “ok! I understand what you said. Moving on to solutions, let’s try X to achieve Y.” When he says “X won’t work because..”, then break in and say, “Is there something like X that would get us to Y?” or “OK, can you come back to me tomorrow with a couple of options for getting to Y?”

      Focus heavily on solutions / end goal, keep him focused on that, and give yourself some time off from him – if he is off writing down his mansplaining, he’s not saying it to you.

  103. LongestDay*

    Had an interview where one of the questions was “Tell me about a time where you had to build trust with someone at work and how you did it.” I asked if they could elaborate or give an example of what kind of situation they meant, and the interviewer said it was just on the list of questions they could chose from to ask so they weren’t sure. It seemed like a strange question to me because I don’t purposefully try to build trust with anyone, and I’ve never done anything where to make myself seem untrustworthy where I had to gain trust back. Anyone know what kind of answer you’re supposed to give?

    My answer ended up being that my teammates know they can trust me because I respond to their questions and requests for help immediately (or as soon as I can if I’m in the middle of something urgent), and I’ve gotten comments from them about how I’m always so helpful and get work done fast, which I take to mean they think I’m dependable and trust that if they come to me there will be a positive result. I’m not one of those people who need to be badgered to do their job.

    1. Llama Wrangler*

      It sounds like not a great question for the job if the interviewers didn’t know why they were asking it.

      On the other hand, I’ve gotten similar questions in roles that have to deal with partnership building or coaching. In which case, I talk about specific examples of how I have built relationships that lead to successful work outcomes.

      1. LongestDay*

        If the question had been “Tell me about a time where you had to build a relationship with someone at work and how you did it,” my answer would have been basically the same, with the addition of how I am friendly and approachable (I’m cheerful and happy about helping people who come to me with work requests, and I make an effort to remember things about coworker’s hobbies or lives to ask about when we chat). But I do all this because I’m a decent person (responsive, responsible, friendly, interested in other people’s lives), not because I’m purposefully trying to build trust or relationships. I feel like I’m missing some basic understanding of how I’m supposed to be acting at work.

        1. Jules the 3rd*

          Your self-motiviated behavior happens to line up with the external mechanics of building trust. You’re not missing anything on how you act, you just haven’t consciously connected to this description of how the way you act lines up with the way other people will react to you.

          (ie, it’s a semantics issue mostly, your behavior is great)

    2. Librarian of SHIELD*

      This interviewer is not good at interviewing people.

      When you’re given the list of potential questions, you don’t just close your eyes and point at one. You figure out which questions are likely to show you whether your interviewees will be good at the job. So if this was a job where you were going to be working with vulnerable populations or something along those lines, then the trust question would make sense. But if they don’t see this as a position where the person will have to proactively gain the trust of the people they’ll be working with, this question doesn’t give them valuable information and they would have been better off picking something else.

      As far as that goes, I think your answer was a good one because it gave your interviewer solid information on what you’re like as an employee and a member of a team.

      1. LongestDay*

        It was a job where you’d have to work with people in other departments occasionally, but I treat people from other departments the same way I treat direct coworkers (except less chatting), so I’m not sure how I’d proactively gain their trust either.

        Asking about building trust for a job where you work with vulnerable populations makes much more sense!

    3. Close Bracket*

      the interviewer said it was just on the list of questions they could chose from to ask so they weren’t sure.

      Oh good grief.

      I was also asked in an interview how I build trust with coworkers, and I was similarly WTF. I can’t even remember what I said. I didn’t get that job, but 6 months later, I was offered a different position at the same company. I’ve learned that trust is one of the core values here, and it’s related to honesty and doing the right thing. I just watched a stupid video on it, and they mentioned commitment and accountability in doing your tasks. That sounds like what you said, so maybe think of more formal language in case this comes up again.

      1. LongestDay*

        Thinking in terms of honesty, doing the right thing, commitment, and accountability makes sense. I will try to come up with a response that includes those. Thanks!

    4. Goose Lavel*

      I think it’s a great question and you can answer it very simply. The key to answering any question like this (tell me about a time when …) is to discuss a bullet point accomplishment on your resume. You then explain how you built trust with coworkers, supervisor, team, or suppliers to achieve that accomplishment.

      Most interviews want know how you achieved your accomplishments as opposed to discussing somewhat nebulus interactions with coworkers.

  104. FiveWheels*

    I’m venting, because I know the answer.

    My aunt, to whom I was very close, died of stomach cancer a few months ago. I was and remain devastated.

    My boss and I used to be best friends, and yes I know what a dodgy situation that was only too well. Given how unpleasant he was around the time of her diagnosis and death, we are no longer on friendly terms and probably never will be again.

    And today, he decided to make JOKES about CANCER while I was STANDING IN HIS OFFICE GETTING SOMETHING SIGNED. I said “I don’t understand what you mean” and he doubled down.

    My question was, is this completely unacceptable behaviour as a boss, friend and human being? You don’t need to answer, I know the answer.

    1. Jamie*

      I’m so sorry. I know how hard it can be when your boss does that and you can’t tell them to f off because you need your job. I am so sorry about your aunt.

      My old boss got into a conversation with someone else, in my office, about aortic rupture and I said that was how my dad died. My tone wasn’t light and clearly I wanted the topic changed.

      He then asked me if the internal bleeding ended up bleeding from his mouth and ears and went on about what a painful death it must be.

      I still hate him.

      1. FiveWheels*

        Holy shit. What an absolute jackass!

        I want out of this place as soon as possible. Today was just the latest in a long line of “wtf is wrong with you and this place” moments, which range from the aforementioned “joke” to a 30kg+ window falling out of the frame and landing on my desk and everyone acting like this was all perfectly normal.

        1. Jamie*

          That’s the problem with seriously dysfunctional workplaces…others act like it’s normal because it is for then.

          Toxic environments recalibrate our normal baseline so that chaos is seen as just another day. It’s actually kind of hard to adapt at first when you work somewhere without the dysfunction.

          1. FiveWheels*

            Yep, I was thinking a while ago about what are legitimate concerns about my workplace and what’s just bitch eating crackers. After considering it for a while I realised even the question was toxic.

            If I’m not happy in a job, it doesn’t matter if it’s for an objectively sensible reason or not. If my reasons for not enjoying a job are ridiculous, I still don’t enjoy the job, and I don’t need to justify leaving.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      F.M.L

      My most beloved wonderful boss was actually really dark in sense of humor. Granted this is also the man who got diagnosed with dementia and was all “Okay so my brain is gonna go dark[er] and so imma need you to make sure I don’t sign checks or anything like that when that day comes!” And I just blinked heavily at him.

      Then we had a dude who was actually very close to him who worked there for 20+ years who would make “Bosses brain is gone, so I’m going to take it into my own hands instead of going to him [fine about taking it into his own hands, we all did that or I was default person to deal with it at that point…but the whole intro was always WTF DUDE.]

      So your boss is being a massive insensitive butthead but I do want to say that this is how some people operate. They do it to themselves and they do it to others. It’s unfortunate and uncomfortable to say the least. I’m so sorry about your aunt and that you’re in this situation :(

      My heart hurts for you but at the same time even after having gone through heck with my dad’s cancer battle, I have made off handed poorly thought out jokes about it too. HOWEVER I agree, that the double down is where the real problem is here, grossssssssssssssss. When someone flinches at a “joke”, I always apologize and remind myself to stop being a dbag.

    3. PB*

      Yeah. Cancer. Hilarious.

      Even if your boss didn’t know your situation, I think everyone I know has at least 1 person in their lives affected by cancer. I can’t begin to imagine a funny cancer joke, because something that’s killed people I love is just… not funny.

      You don’t need me to tell you this, but your boss is an ass. This would never be okay, and since he knows your situation, it’s a million times worse

    4. bdg*

      I don’t know. I don’t think I’d cut him off. My dad died of brain cancer 4 weeks ago. I accidentally made a joke about widows in front of my mom a week after he died. It was a pretty funny joke, though.

      Sometimes I forget that my dad died of brain cancer and say weird or awkward things. I don’t think I could blame someone else for forgetting that he died, or forgetting how he died.

      If he was already not a great friend, though, then it sounds like you’ve already written him off.

    5. Not So NewReader*

      Ugh. So very sorry.

      Guessing from what I read here stuff like this happens often enough. I had just gotten done explaining about losing my husband and my boss made a bunch of jokes about death. Com’on, what are you five or something, really?

      I did not have the presence of mind to follow my own rule. My rule is to match what is coming at me. If someone can say something outrageous then I can match them, “Try to keep track of your audience, I just lost my husband so probably death jokes aren’t going to play well.” People who are confused enough about life to think this is okay to say out loud actually need a clear explanation saying NO, not okay.

      Some people are very sweet and supportive, this also leads to tears but a different kind of tears. Others are just plain jerks. I think it reflects their own discomfort with how temporary we all are. You will be okay in the long run because you are facing realities. Him– not so much.

      Very sorry for your loss.

  105. Public Facing Librarian*

    Just checking in. Was pleasant and present at the public event last weekend. Many participants in my program over the space of 5 hours. Good energy and good feedback. Over 100 patron contacts. Former board member came in at the end of the day, participated, had their picture taken. Behaved as if nothing had happened and I did the same. As I said, very, very, very small community. Deep breaths. One more event to go in October.

  106. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

    I applied for a position with a local company just under a month ago and I have heard nothing. At this point I am assuming that there are not interested but part of me says there is still hope. I know the whole hiring process usually takes longer than one would expect but what are your thoughts. How long do I hold out hope?

    1. LawBee*

      Standard advice here is “apply and then assume you didn’t get the job, and move on to other opportunities”. It’s good advice – when we apply, we have to build a little fantasy around getting the job and what it will be like, but once that application is submitted, we have to let that fantasy go and move on. If they follow up with you, it will be a nice surprise, but if they don’t and you continue to hold out hope, it could make the job hunting process incredibly demoralizing (and it already sucks).

  107. Patricia*

    I started using Twitter several years ago, in an account under my (unique) full legal name. Despite (because of?) being pretty standard millennial stuff plus some jokes about/discussion of my niche artistic field, it’s somehow turned into my main professional presence in that field– it’s been quoted in multiple publications and gotten me a surprising amount of work and notoriety.
    However, I don’t currently have enough work in said field to live on and have been looking for a “day job” with several interviews but no luck. I’m following all the résumé, cover letter, and interview advice on this site. At what point do I start worrying it’s because of my online presence?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      You could try to make your Twitter private for a month or so and see if it makes any difference. If you make it private, you’ll still keep all your followers, but people shouldn’t be able to look you up and see stuff on a whim. They can probably see your online quotes, but I don’t know if that will be held against you.

      You could also try changing your Twitter handle to something that’s not your name, but put your name in your Bio so that people still know it’s you.

  108. Manager Feeling Hurt*

    An employee of mine went on a two-week vacation and extended it by another week, because a family member they were visiting became seriously ill. Normally, I’d be totally supportive, but in this case, I’m suspicious and resentful because of what had transpired prior. I feel that my relationship with this employee has been ruined and I can’t trust them as much as I did. Am I over-reacting?

    Background:

    They’d originally requested a 3-week vacation, which I denied due to the difficulty with coverage. At our company, a 2-week vacation is not outrageously generous, but generous. A 3-week vacation would be not unheard of, but rare. After I told them that 2 weeks is the best we could give them due to the nature of their position, they became super-surly and didn’t talk to me more than absolutely necessary for over a month. (We’d been friendly and occasionally chatty up to that point, for years.) That hurt, and I think they intended it to hurt.

    Then they went on vacation and extended it without discussing it with me–they just emailed me and my boss, basically telling us that that’s what they were doing. It caused a lot of stress in our department, as we aren’t exactly swimming in manpower and people had to make sacrifices to cover for the absent employee.

    I’m guessing that unless I’m willing to go down the road of requiring doctor’s notes or asking for other things that’d “prove” that their story is true–which is not the road I want to take, there’s nothing to do here but to try harder to believe them. As a manager, how would you react to a situation like this? Is it weird that I’m feeling hurt? How do I get over it and hide my own hurt feeling from the employee as well as others in the department? This is an otherwise good employee that we probably rely on a bit too much.

    1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

      How often does this employee request vacation? How strong is their work? How long have you been understaffed and what are you doing to fix it?

      1. valentine*

        Ideally, you would’ve replied, “No. We expect you back x date. As I said when I approved your vacation, two weeks is the max this time.” And you can sit them down and tell them it was inappropriate (not unacceptable, because you did accept it). You can leave out the suspicions, unless you would’ve been fine with their declaration had they accepted the no appropriately. Are they a caregiver? Who announces they’re taking a week without preapproved FMLA?

        You might consider why they were so put out that you said no, if it was the first time, unless everyone knows that rare means once every five years.

    2. Me*

      Well, but this is exactly why people do require notes.

      It works best when policy is clear in advance. Be it an absence longer than 3 days or an absence that coincides with vacation time or if there’s a pattern of Mondays and Fridays etc.

      We have a sick leave abuse policy at work and the only people who end up affected by it are the people who try to abuse it. It’s not about the individual – it’s about what that individual is doign to the rest of the team.

    3. Jamie*

      This is an otherwise good employee that we probably rely on a bit too much.

      If you can, I’d focus on this. If it puts you in a bad spot if she’s gone for 3 weeks what happens if she quits, or has a long term illness, or other emergency. I know it’s not always feasible to have 100% coverage for everything but if an extra week off is this serious for your department it’s worth looking into how you can mitigate that risk.

      1. She's One Crazy Diamond*

        YUP. This. Your employee is probably completely burned out, and I’m guessing may be actively job hunting.

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find out that this employee is job hunting. Some people just don’t like it when they have enough vacation time accrued to take a three-week vacation, only to have it denied because they are relied on “a bit too much,” especially when it appears that other people (who perhaps aren’t relied on so much) are allowed to take off three weeks at a time. This employee is being penalized for being so good at his/her job.

        2. Blue Eagle*

          This comment reminds me of the boss who was put out because her good employee (who would always take co-worker’s shifts) needed the day off to attend her college graduation. And the boss said “no” unless she was able to get her own replacement – – and none of the people that she filled in for would agree to fill in for her.

          If you have a really good employee who you rely on, who doesn’t need much accommodation – – sometimes you have to accommodate them more than you would a mediocre employee.

    4. Narvo Flieboppen*

      We frequently say ‘trust but verify’. Our HR requires a doctor’s note or other documentation for any unplanned absence longer than 3 days, so you have something like that you can fall back on?

      I can see where you’re suspect, based on the background, but is it possible they asked for the 3 weeks because they were spending time with someone who’s not doing well and needs help? Hospice/end of life kind of thing?

      My perspective: My dad was diagnosed with a terminal condition. It’s expected he probably has several years left, but we’re planning all of his end of life stuff now. If I was visiting for one of my regular vacation visits to his place and he took a turn for the worse (3 times in 6 visits I’ve wound up in the ER with him, so literally a coin toss in my case), I would also be telling work they’ll have to make due without me.

    5. MyDogIsCalledBradleyPooper*

      Your employee did not return to work as expected without discussing this with you. She may have informed you that she was not coming back to work as planned but it was not a discussion. I am assuming that vacations are scheduled/approved at management discretion. That is the what I would give feedback on. “When you email me and tell me that you are taking an additional week of vacation, you are not following the correct process. As you were off for an additional week we were unable to schedule adequate coverage leaving the rest of the team to take on this extra work. What can you do differently next time?”

      The correct answer is she is to call you and discuss this with you in advance. Make sure she understands this.

      I would not be too worried about proving that this person was seriously ill. The issue is that this person did not follow the normal process.

      Is it weird to feel hurt? Maybe I would be more upset that this person took advantage of you and put you in a bad situation. To the rest of the team it looks like you cannot manage this person effectively.

    6. Blueberry Girl*

      Do you have any reason to believe this employee would be dishonest? I think you’re upset at them for their reaction to not allowing them the 3 week vacation (and I’m not sure why you didn’t, but that’s a different problem) and are assuming this employee was somehow pulling the wool over your eyes. If you really think you can’t trust this person to be honest with you, than you have a much bigger problem on your hands than one extra week of vacation. So, I might try to focus on why you’re reacting the way you are and think carefully about where that might be coming from.

      1. Jules the 3rd*

        MFH didn’t approve the 3 weeks of vacation because it put a strain on the rest of the department, a totally legit decision.

        MFH – you should make sure you rely on them less. Cross train some other people, see about taking some of their workload off. This gives you room to approve longer vacations if you need to.

      2. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        I think “took emergency leave that conveniently exactly covered a denied vacation” is a reason to believe that it might be dishonest. It’s not a smoking gun, but it’s definitely suspicious.

        2. Blueberry Girl*

          It is. So, this is a time to think about why it feels off. Is it just the fact that it matches the timeline or have there been other incidents that should be thought through? Is there a pattern or not? Because that’s what would be concerning- if there’s no pattern, than give the employee the benefit of the doubt. If there is a pattern, than that’s the problem that needs to be addressed.

    7. Aurion*

      This is one of the pitfalls of being in a small setup without a lot of cross-training. (No judgement, I’m at such a place too.)

      It sounds like this is the first time the employee “abused” (quotation marks because attitude aside, you don’t know that their family member wasn’t ill) the leave policy. It stressed out your department due to coverage. So, if you have the authority to, start proactively figuring out coverage. Cross train, have redundancies in place, etc. Because if this load-bearing employee wins the lottery/gets hit by a bus/etc. your business still has to run.

      I wouldn’t make them “prove” their family member was sick, and such proof is very difficult to obtain anyway. If their uncle had a massive heart attack and was in the ICU for two weeks and they were helping their extended family, are you going to ask them to provide hospital records? Get their cousin to write you a letter? Even if they can provide documentation, it will sour the relationship you have with your employee further. Don’t go down that road.

      Instead, ask them that you need to have a discussion with them if they need to suddenly change plans. “I understand medical emergencies aren’t planned, but if you suddenly need to extend your leave I need to discuss with you what projects we need coverage for and what can be delayed, where you keep the llama grooming files, and other details. Please don’t just drop an email or voicemail, have a conversation with me.”

    9. Not So NewReader*

      And this is why companies don’t allow mixing different types of PTO together, because of people doing this. In most retail places I have worked she would be informed that she was told not to take the week off and she manipulatively took the week off, so “you’re fired, good-bye”. Guilty unless proven innocent.

      You do have other options here.

      You can chose to detach, depersonalize this. A friendly employee is not necessary the same thing as a friend. Indeed, in our own personal lives we have people who we think are friends and they are not friends in reality. But at work get that hard, clear line going on. Employees can be friendly but they are not your friends.
      She actually did this to the company. She bullied her boss when she did not get what she wanted. Then she found a way to manipulate the situation so she got what she wanted. When you start thinking of it as she did something to the company, it might be easier to pull back some of your objectivity.

      Next. Consider discussing with your boss writing a new policy of not mixing different types of time off into one request. AND, should an emergency happen, the employee will need to bring in documentation for that emergency. Perhaps you can get a policy like this in place.

      If she stays with the company long enough to have another three week vacation, then sit with your boss and hammer out an action plan. Will you grant it? Or will you deny it? If denied then what will you tell her? I would tell her that last time she was given a free pass because life happens. However, repeat occurrences will appear circumspect. Therefore, if she does have an actual emergency for the following week she must now bring in documentation to support her statement that she had an emergency.

      My bottom line is NO I would not trust this person. And my distrust starts with the attitude she had before she went on vacation. I cannot trust this person to behave like a professional, period. However, I can be civil and I can even have a nice conversation once in a while. Privately, I would know I am her boss and in the end, I will have say over what happens in the future. I am not going to be bullied by employees and I am not going to be lied to by employees.

      Use the hurt to teach you. She did this “at the company” not “at you”. You just happened to be in her path. She was not the person you thought she was and that IS disappointing. Here a bigger picture perspective can help. I have seen folks who I thought were just average folks doing an average job morph into a cohort that I will remember fondly for the rest of my life. Some folks don’t measure up to what we think of them and other folks greatly exceed our expectations. Surprises are pretty normal. You got a surprise.

      I had a kind of similar thing happen a while ago. Employee took the week anyway. I had to put some thought into but I realized I could not be a reference for her. (There were other things such as attitude going on also.) I had to be careful here because it felt vindictive. Then I realized, wait, if she pulls this stunt somewhere else and I have my good name on a good reference, where does that put ME? I recommended this person knowing full well they were capable of this behavior. yikes.

      I’d like to encourage you to think of it as a boss. I would consider questions such as, “What if all my employees behaved like this?” and “Am I giving her a different response than I would give another employee if they did the same thing. If yes, WHY.” These are some tough questions, so take a day or more to kick the answers around inside your head. Then decide what changes you are going to make in your workplace and in your own self.

  109. Aly*

    Anyone have any experience negotiating a serious raise in vacation time? The last nonprofit I worked at made up for quite bad pay with generous vacation time — I started with 22 days of vacation/sick time, which increased to somewhere around 27 days when I hit the 3-year mark. I left my job three months ago, and have just received an offer for a position at another nonprofit. The pay is a bit better, but I was surprised to see that they are offering me 10 days per year – and to top it off, no mention of an additional sick leave pot! I really don’t want to accept a job with such poor vacation time, as I know I’d have one foot out the door the whole time. I know getting back the 5 weeks of vacation time I had before is unlikely, but I would settle for four. In addition:

    – I’d like to negotiate the salary a bit as well —aiming for a 2-4K increase from what they’re offering (45K)

    – To make the vacation issue even thornier, I have a family wedding in India that I am planning on attending in December for two weeks. I was planning on letting them know about this preplanned trip and that I am willing to take the time unpaid, but I understand that along with asking them to double my vacation time in general this is asking for a lot. On the other hand, I feel like 10 days combined sick/vacation time is a really low place to start from in the first place!

    Does anyone have any recommendations for wording this? A reality check?

    1. CheeryO*

      I don’t have any experience with non-profits, but 10 days is objectively stingy. You already have the offer in-hand, so I don’t think you need to overthink this one. “Is there any flexibility on the salary and vacation time? I was hoping for closer to $49,000 and four weeks of combined vacation and sick leave. Additionally, I wanted to let you know that I have a two-week trip planned for a family wedding in December. I’m willing to take that time unpaid.”

      Four weeks may be a stretch if they’re only offering two, and you always run the risk of looking overly demanding, although I think most people wouldn’t be too put off by the question. Regardless, I’d do some proactive soul searching and decide if you’d be willing to accept three weeks.

    2. Schnoodle HR*

      I doubt you’d get more than 3 weeks, I’d be shy to ask for more than that.

      10 days seems low from where you came from, but it’s actually really common as a new hire, that said if someone has experience I would expect to offer more than the basic. But think, if their top tier is 4 weeks and only employees who have been there 20 years get that, you’re going to sound really out of line. So maybe find out what their top tier is first? That might help gauge.

      1. Filosofickle*

        I agree; in my experience two weeks is standard for “vacation” PTO. However, I would expect at least another week in sick days / personal days = 3 weeks total. Definitely ask to clarify that!

        Personally I’ve never had any luck negotiating extra vacation, that seems to be something hiring managers can’t or won’t do. But that’s not universal; I know a couple people who’ve gotten extra time coming into exec type positions. My observation has been it has to exist for a class of employee for you to get it. For instance, if no one gets more than 2 weeks they are unlikely to give you 3. (Too hard to monitor, seems unfair, etc.) But if some employees get 3, there is a way to grant an exception to you as a new hire.

        Your tolerance for walking away may determine how hard you push. Do you need a job enough to take something you don’t want? If you push and lose, is that ok? Would more money make up for the time?

    3. Bluebell*

      Twice I’ve negotiated for an extra week of vacation. The first time I was coming from higher education where I had 4 weeks of vacation and we accumulated huge amounts of sick time too. I was shifting to a cultural institution. I asked for a higher salary at the same time and ended up with the extra week plus a small salary bump. The second time I informally asked for an extra week of PTO in a discussion with the recruiter, so it was reflected in my offer.
      It sounds like you could comfortably ask for 3 weeks, and ask for India to be unpaid. Good luck!

  110. Last Daughter Standing*

    Back on the hunt for a job. I had stopped working because of a very long-term illness (over a year) but am better now an ready to return to the workforce. I had a phenomenal interview last week — over 2 hours, plus a tour of the entire facility while someone checked references. The interview ended with them saying “We’re excited about this!” There was just one more step — a 45 minute psychological assessment. I did that at home that evening. Four days later got a canned rejection. I know there’s never a guaranteed outcome, but this one stung. So no question for the masses, just venting some disappointment.

  111. Not Desperate for the Job*

    I gave my 2 weeks’ notice and my boss cried ; 3; I’m going to miss her a lot too! She’s definitely what kept me here for as long as I’ve stayed. She asked me why I was leaving, acknowledging that the company culture here is challenging, but I also pointed out that it’s an opportunity in a new industry that I’ve been trying to get into. I hope she’s able to get to a next step up soon. I’d love to work with her again someday, just…not in pharmaceuticals. Had she left before me I would have tried to go with her! She asked if there was money or anything that could be offered to make me stay, and while a part of me considered for half a second asking for a ton of vacation time, I also realize that won’t change the negative things about the environment.

    It’s hard because I like the people here as humans. They’re good PEOPLE. Just horrible coworkers.

    Anyway. She’s sharing my resignation on Monday with the Big Boss, and is going to stick her neck out to make the transition as normal as possible, but we both acknowledge I might be asked to leave. She suggested I bring home some of the things I kept at the office, which I have been doing on the DL all week. So, we shall see on Monday!

    2. Just Another Manic Millie*

      It seems strange to me that on the one hand, your boss cried when you gave two weeks notice and wanted to know if more money could make you stay, but on the other hand, there’s a possibility that you’ll be walked out the door before the two weeks are up.

        1. Just Another Manic Millie*

          Oh yeah, I agree that it comes from Above, but I think it’s strange that Above might want OP out the door ASAP while the boss is offering more money without, it appears, getting Above’s approval to offer more money.

  112. Anonymous Educator*

    Remember that person who wrote about having a two-hour commute in LA and then finding out her partner thought that was normal?

    Well, I’m one of those people who has a two-hour commutes in LA, and I have lots of co-workers who do, too. Is it normal? Is it something everybody has? No. But it’s certainly not unheard of.

    Fortunately, my two-hour commute is 75% public transit and 25% walking, so it’s far more relaxing than dealing with stop-and-go traffic.

    1. wingmaster*

      I think that is normal for a commute to LA. I used to commute from Orange County to Burbank, which was 2 hours one way. I hated it lol. I don’t think I could ever go back to a long commute…

    2. Green Goose*

      I work in the Bay Area and even though I live about 11 miles from work, it takes me 35-45 in the morning and an hour+ in the evening. I’ve started biking to work (which takes an hour each way) just so I don’t have to deal with the stop and go. But in my office, I think at least half the people are spending over 90 minutes a day in the car, with one woman driving about three hours roundtrip each day. It doesn’t feel normal, but I guess there just aren’t other options.

      I don’t really want to move where I work, and I’ve never come across a comparable company that is closer to home.

    3. sacados*

      I think it’s definitely more unusual outside of LA. Our traffic is such that you’re not actually traveling that many miles in two hours — in a lot of other areas of the country, a two hour commute could mean you’re traveling as much as 100 miles. Which is definitely outside of the norm!

      1. Just wondering*

        I live in the DC metro area and I was driving roughly 40 miles. I left around 4PM. Took 1.5 hours.

        1. Kat in VA*

          I also live in the DC area, in the suburbs. My 26 mile commute takes around 1h20m-1h30m in the morning, and usually 1h30m-1h50m in the afternoon. I leave for work at 0630 and home at 1600.

    4. Alison Skipworth*

      I commute in Los Angeles and it’s a one-hour bus trip, six miles, three buses. No matter what route I take it’s never less than one hour. Much better actually than driving 40 minutes to work and paying $80 per month for the “privilege” of parking.

    5. irene adler*

      I’m interviewing for a job right now that would take my 25 minute commute to about 70 minutes (each way).
      I’m not looking forward to that.
      So how do you pass the time during the public transit portion of your commute?

      2. Anonymous Educator*

        I usually do a combination of zoning out and meditating / sleeping lightly (so I don’t miss my stop), listening to podcasts, and playing Candy Crush.

  113. Narvo Flieboppen*

    A week, in three parts.

    Round 1:

    Ms. Allergic to Everything, a coworker of Ms. Clueless, lodged a complaint about me because I used what is basically treated as her personal company bathroom. (Side note: What is up with these people and the company bathrooms???) Which is to say, she claims to have horrible scent allergies (could easily be entirely true;) though I question some of the validity of her claims based on this week’s experience. We have a bathroom in our building which is labeled as ‘scent free’ just for her protection. I have no problem with this. I used that bathroom at the start of the week when the other bathrooms were in use and I was rather desperate. Ms. AtE happened to see me leaving and started in on me about it being scent free. I acknowledged I knew that and I was compliant with the rules.

    Ms. AtE proceeded to lodge a formal complaint with HR, insisted someone come up to cleanse the room entirely, and left early due to a ‘migraine caused by Narvo’s cologne in the scent free bathroom’. Sounds like a totally valid complaint on the face of it, barring a few diversions from reality. Once HR got involved, they scheduled a meeting with me the next morning, and I took the liberty of pulling our home shopping list of products, as well as photos, in case anyone wanted to Google the products to verify. HR meeting included Ms. AtE conferenced into the discussion by phone ‘to avoid allergens’. It was fun. For me.

    First, I not only don’t wear cologne, I don’t even own any. Ms. AtE then decided it was my deodorant. Which is an unscented baking soda based product because I both hate the stink of and am myself allergic to most scented ones. Okay, it must be my soap from home. Nope, that’s an all natural scent free product. Ironically, the same soap Ms. AtE uses because I tried it based on her recommendation. Well, now it must be my laundry soap. Also scent free, confirmed by HR looking at my photo/receipts. Oh, shaving cream! Must be that, per Ms. AtE. Ah, sorry, I have an electric razor and don’t use shaving cream. I also don’t use aftershave, due to the aforementioned allergies. We went around the merry go round with a few more products like hair gel (with this lack of hairline? She’s funny!) Finally resolved that, as near as anyone can tell, I’m as scent free at home as Ms. AtE. You also might think Ms. AtE would have noticed allergies popping up when we sit next to each other in weekly meetings. Especially when I supposedly am wearing so much that it taints an entire room for hours after my departure. Also note, none of her allergies apply to her extremely generous use of patchouli oil.

    Round 2:

    The next day, a purchaser from another department notifies my boss that one of their vendor account has been shut off because ‘Narvo didn’t pay them on time!’. Purchaser Pants-On-Fire proceeds to regale both their boss and my boss with stories of frequent late payments even though PPOF has done ‘all the paperwork and turned it in!’. Boss brings this info to me and asks me to run him through what happened.

    We have a pretty standard process: Create PO, get PO approved, send PO to vendor, verify product was received, note any shipping, send all this plus the vendor invoice over to Accounting (my part) for payment processing. That’s the process, in the order it should happen, and ideally the documents reach me 2-3 weeks before payment is due.

    Well, let’s see, PPOF did generate a PO and it was approved. Hmm. Weird thing here – the PO creation date is 3 weeks after the order date. And 2 1/2 weeks after the date the goods were received. Check the date on the electronic approval signature from PPOF’s boss – 3 1/2 weeks after the order date. That’s all outside of the correct process. Goods were all marked as received, backdated to when the product actually came in, but kind of looks odd that you’re receiving it weeks before the PO was generated. Someone covers their tracks… no they don’t, actually. Everything is also time/date stamped when it is sent to me. The PO/invoice/packing slip packet was sent to me on 9/12/19. The due date, by which the vendor was supposed to receive their check, was 9/6/19. Seeing as I am not equipped with time travel technology (or magic), I was unable to process the payment prior to the due date, but at no part in this process was it due to a failure on my part to do my job in a timely fashion.

    My boss goes back to PPOF’s dept. and lets them know why the payment was late and that we in Accounting take no responsibility for payments being late due to their errors. This led to a complaint from PPOF direct to our VP, who looked into zero facts, and sent an email to me & my boss telling us he had an expectation that we would fix the problem on the Accounting side to make sure this doesn’t happen again or there will be “severe consequences” for us. So glad to hear useful input from the upper echelons of the bee hive. Boss has assured me this is on the agenda for his weekly meeting with our VP, yet I remain skeptical of seeing either change or an apology.

    Round 3:

    We round out the week with yesterday’s joyous fun. There were fraudulent charges made on a company card, by someone who appears to have no connection to our organization. The charges were made in San Diego, where we’re on the East Coast. Boss is certain the charges were made by a staff member who stole the card info and wants to investigate. Well, someone checked into a hotel in San Diego, using a theoretically physical swipe of the card. Which we currently have physically in our hands here, just outside of Boston. Also, a quick check of employment records, shows all employees in the suspect group were on site and accounted for – by way of physically clocking in with a fingerprint – on the day the charges happened. I don’t see someone stealing the card, traveling across the country, checking into a hotel with it, then returning across the country for work the next day and bringing the card back. That’s just nonsensical. Still, boss man insists we treat it as employee theft. He has filed a police report and requested I document all of the information I can get. Okey dokey. That was an hour of my time for which I really did nothing of value for the company and for which I don’t think we’ll be able to find any employee theft.

    Today, I hope to be like a turtle. Head yanked into my shell and going totally unnoticed.

    I really, really, really would like someone to call me back about one of the resumes I’ve sent out. Anytime now. Got a few very nice rejection letters to add to my collection, though. Le sigh.

      1. Arielle*

        It happened to me with my company card at my old job. Someone spent $900 at Nordstrom in New Jersey when the card was with me in Boston the whole time. Luckily AmEx believed me and it was not a big deal to get it cleared up.

      2. Narvo Flieboppen*

        Yes, this has happened to use before, too. Which is why I really didn’t think employee theft at all.

        Card data gets breached, theft happens. I don’t like it and if I could figure out it who it was, I would be the first person to call the police and give them the info. In this case, though, all the info I got pointed to it being someone physically a couple thousand miles away from us, which is probably not one of our employees when they were all here the day of and the day after.

    3. sacados*

      ..WOW.
      That is some epic fail on all fronts. Here’s hoping you can treat it like the circus it is and just sit back/enjoy the ridiculousness until you manage to make your way out of there.
      Also this would perhaps be a good time to remind them of what Alison has pointed out more than once on the site — “scent free” means absolutely scent FREE, not just “no scents except for the ones that the person who claims to have allergies likes/chooses to wear.”

    4. WellRed*

      This has come up here before with regard to scent free offices: requiring coworkers to uh, un-scent themselves to the extent that you are is not a reasonable accommodation. You’re allowed to select your own deoderant and shaving cream, etc! She’s being obnoxious and intrusive and just obviously doesn’t like you.

      1. Narvo Flieboppen*

        Very late reply, but what she really doesn’t like is not having a personal restroom. She’s done the same thing when other people use that particular restroom, too. It’s always a huge deal and massive complaining based on little factual evidence…

    6. E*

      It’s not just me then? Thank goodness. I thought I was losing my mind there for a few days. Small mistakes but things I should have caught. I take it as a reminder to try to slow down and check everything before finalizing, not that that helps me feel any better right away.

    7. Not So NewReader*

      Familiarity breeds contempt and that contempt has many costumes?

      Just as there will always be people worse than me at my job, there will always be people who are better than me at my job. I think that is closer to reality.

  115. RMNPgirl*

    So the restructure announcement got pushed back. I know I’ll have a job but I’m really curious how it may change or if there may be other jobs opening that I might be interested in.
    I’m also just burning out. We’ve had major project after major project for the last two years and it just doesn’t seem like it’s going to end. And it doesn’t help that I’ve become a go to person for a lot of this stuff. In some ways it’s a good thing and in others it’s not. I also bought a house and moved so I’ve had personal stuff too.
    How do others handle this kind of thing? Just keeping up with the pace every day for so long?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Delegate when ever possible.
      If you are a go-to person, train by explaining, but do not do things for people. It takes longer in the short run to train or explain to someone but in the long run, you do not have to keep doing their stuff for them.

      Talk with your boss about the pacing for your work.

      At home, consider hiring some things out or asking a family member/friend for random helps.

  116. Ada*

    Looking for suggestions for affordable home office furniture for someone who’s 5’3″.

    So I was able to convince my work to allow me to relocate out of state, which means I’ll be working from home soon. I’m taking the opportunity to set myself up with furniture that fits me better. I think I’ve found a creative solution for my desk – a classroom activity table! They have a wide range of sizes, many are height-adjustable down to 22″, and they only cost around $200.

    Now I just need a good office chair to match. I’m hoping for something that has a seat height that can go down as far as 15″, and a seat depth around 16-17″. Also hoping to not completely break the bank with this (though I realize I’ll probably still have to pay more than average on this one).

    Does anyone know where I can find something like this? I’m also open to out-of-the-box ideas/solutions.

    1. Nanc*

      I don’t know if all Staples stores do this but our local store let’s you have chairs to test sit. They deliver, you sit for a week or so and find the one that works for you and then buy from them. I mean, you could probably find it cheaper online if you wanted but they let us test sit! 12 different kinds of chairs! It was kinda fun . . .

    2. Frequently mistaken for mistletoe*

      Try Ikea for children’s workchairs. And take a look on Craigslist for used office furniture.

  117. Anon for this*

    I’m worried I did something unethical.
    I’m an admin at a social-service agency, and I’m starting to look for a similar position somewhere else. Another, larger agency recently had an information session for potential foster parents. I’m not in a position to be a foster parent; I just wanted to learn more about the agency. I thought I would just blend into the crowd, but I was the only one there.
    I felt so fake and awful. I bluffed through and said I was just thinking about foster parenting. If a admin assistant position opens up, can I even apply? I’m sure the FP recruiter will remember me.
    Leery of submitting this problem as a question to Alison because it’s so specific. Thanks for any advice.

    1. House Tyrell*

      Ehhh I think it’ll be fine honestly. Should you have done it that way, maybe not. But it was an info session about what fostering is like and you could reasonably say you were curious but realized it wasn’t for you at the time after. If they do remember you after a position maybe opens up and you maybe interview for it and they actually asked, you could say that you realized this wasn’t right for you at the time, but you really like the mission of the organization and wanted to be part of it in another way.

          1. LongestDay*

            Me too. Presumably there’s going to be a significant time lapse between Anon attending the info session and an admin position they can apply to opening up, so I don’t think the agency will jump to the conclusion that Anon had ulterior/fake motives for attending the info session.

    2. Clementine*

      You could be attending to become more informed about the process. I don’t think you have anything to apologize for here.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      “Well, I went for the information session for foster parents. While I have since realized this is not for me right now, I also got a good look at your organization and I have a real appreciation for the work you do. So I decided I would through my name in the ring for your new job opening.”

      It’s very hard to prove what people’s intentions are. Hang on to that thought. So it is believable that you went to the meeting to learn more and you have since decided that now is not a good stage in life for you to take on such responsibility. But you discovered that you would be interested in working with them.

  118. Jack Be Nimble*

    Just got a resume with “House Ravenclaw” listed underneath their degrees. From a candidate with more than ten years of post-grad experience.

    1. Bunny Girl*

      Sometimes I love people. I got a resume in one time through email and their email name was Beef Supreme. Come on man.

      1. Witchy Human*

        I knew someone whose email was something like “robot345.” She complained about people never responding to her emails–it didn’t occur to her that she was getting blocked by every single spam filter in existence.

    2. downdate*

      Which institute of higher learning was it linked it? I’d love to know which one of them has a secret magic department! For the research, of course. Not for personal reasons.

  119. Bunny Girl*

    We have an employee who is way past typical retirement age (which is fine) but she refuses to actually do any part of her job and basically just sits up in her office and naps. She has one task a week, which she doesn’t handle well, and if she’s given anything else, she tries to pass if off to other people to do for her.

    But the most annoying part is, she expects to be able to leave early every single Friday. And like hours early. Normally that might be fine, but we have a job where front desk coverage is needed. So myself and my supervisor can never leave on Fridays because she just up and leaves. The other week I was finally able to go out of town on Friday, and my supervisor was watching the front desk. One of her children was in a car accident and she was trying to get information and see if he needed any help or not. This woman came down, found out what was going on, and said Well I need to go home. Can I go? And then basically kept asking if she could go yet to the point that my supervisor just told her to get out.

    My poor supervisor is really frustrated, but has no backup. Our department lead doesn’t care, our HR won’t do anything, and she’s talked to this woman multiple times and she doesn’t care either. She knows my supervisor has no backup and there are just no consequences. It really sucks. I can’t wait for her to retire so we can get someone in here who isn’t so incredibly selfish and who actually does their job.

    1. Colette*

      You have a management problem, not a coworker problem. They have someone on staff who naps on the job! That’s a pretty big sign they aren’t terribly competent.

      1. Bunny Girl*

        Yep. I feel terrible for my supervisor. Our management and HR is terrible. We had an employee assault my supervisor and when she went to HR they asked if “she was really sure she wanted to go through with this.” It’s a joke.

    2. fposte*

      So who in there has disciplinary and hire and fire authority? It sounds like it’s not the supervisor, but has she asked the others if she can fire this person?

      1. Bunny Girl*

        I think just our department lead. But he doesn’t think it’s a problem because it’s not personally impacting him and he thinks we should just work it out between ourselves. For the record, I do know this place is a disaster. I’m a student and my supervisor works really well with me and my schedule and she lets me do my homework when we are slow. That’s the only reason I’m still here.

        1. valentine*

          If the schedule and homework are worth it, this person (I’ll call her Lettuce) is a tax on your job. I wouldn’t feel at all safe there with HR’s attitude toward assault, though, and that would be high on my list for reasons to leave.

          But your supervisor (Orange) and you are holding yourselves hostage to Lettuce. It’s not right if Orange is punishing you for your professionalism by not allowing you to do anything on Fridays because she can’t rely on Lettuce. No one should be making that your problem. Ideally, Orange, on her way out, would have told Lettuce to cover. Orange could also have said no and not to ask again. If Orange and you were out, would Lettuce up and leave? Who would be in trouble for that, everyone but Lettuce?

          Sympathizing with Orange has you seeing Lettuce as the enemy, but Orange and you aren’t a team in that sense because Orange is part of the problem. Pulling back from that and seeing all of them, not just Lettuce, as a tax on your job may help you.

    3. Eleanor Konik*

      Supervisor should have told coworker “no” and then left herself. Then HER boss would see the impact of when coworker goes home early and maybe wake up and care :/

  120. many bells down*

    I got a job! 90 day probationary period while we make sure this is the right fit. Front desk work for an organization I’ve been part of before, so I think they liked my experience.

  121. Job Searching*

    Job interview advice needed. I’ve worked in the nonprofit world for eight years and I’ve decided to switch to the corporate world specifically for the better pay and better benefits. I really love my current job (the mission, the coworkers, the industry) but I’m in need of a specific medical benefit that is not offered at any nonprofit I’ve looked into, and I’ve hit a pay ceiling in my nonprofit role while living in the Bay Area.
    I’m struggling to answer questions about why I want to leave my company/industry to go corporate because it’s really only about benefits/salary but that is not an acceptable answer. Any advice on how to spin my answer to make it sound better?

    1. Yuan Zai*

      I think you can be honest about the desire for more competitive compensation) without sounding crass or mercenary – it’s all in how you word it. You very much enjoyed working in that industry, you very much appreciated the opportunity to serve that mission, but you also want to be able to further your professional development and you have reached a point where that’s just not possible in that industry. You want to be able to take your past experience and expand on that and also gain new experiences at the same time.

    2. LawBee*

      You want to grow in your field and expand your skillset, and as much as you love your current position and company, you have reached the limit of what you can learn there. Let them ask about nonprofit vs profit, and keep returning to skills and needing to grow. They don’t need to know about the benefits/salary reason; they probably know that you’ll make more and have better benefits with them. Make your answer about the work, and you should be fine with that question.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      Focus on the pay ceiling part. That’s part of the truth and probably something you could comfortably explain.

  122. Ian*

    A job I never applied to called all my references to ask about me. It was through a recruiter I’ve worked with before, which is why they had all my info, except that they never asked me about the job. I just started another job through them a few months ago and am very happy here and didn’t express any interest in leaving. I found out about this because one of my references texted me to ask why I was job hunting again so soon.

    Should I talk to the recruiter? Ignore it? This happened last week and the recruiter still hasn’t reached out to me about anything.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      WHAT?! Yes, please talk to the recruiter. They still have you an as active job seeker and need to stop passing your information along without your updated permission!

  123. A Simple Narwhal*

    I just attended a pretty terrible training on unconscious bias. A majority of the training I wanted to stand up and yell “that’s not low-key unconscious bias, that’s flat out racism or sexism!!”

    We also had to go around the room one by one and make a pledge to specifically do something different as a result of this training. If that weren’t bad enough, there were a concerning number of people who work with international teams admitting they treat them different based on stereotypes/assumptions about people front that country.

    …I can’t even. TGIF.

    1. LawBee*

      A friend of mine was at a conference that had a presentation on mental illness, and the speaker kept saying things like “I know this sounds crazy but” and “the number of people being discriminated against based on mental illness is just insane.”

      I get that it is really hard to change language habits, but she could have made more of an effort. Then again, it’s the whole “don’t imagine a pink elephant” – the thing you don’t want to do is the thing you do over and over and over again.

    2. A Simple Narwhal*

      Real question, is this something I should mention to my manager or maybe the department head? The more I’ve thought about it the more uncomfortable I am with how open people were about their treatment of their international counterparts. It was good that people were recognizing their own behavior and vocalizing their commitment to change but…ugh I dunno I just felt like I was going crazy as the only person who wasn’t nodding along and agreeing “oh yea I do that” during the training. I can’t tell if people have genuinely concerning behavior, or if they were swept up in what their coworkers were saying making them exaggerate, or if I’m just overreacting.

    3. Gidget*

      This sounds similar to my experience with unconscious bias training. I was looking forward to it because I was excited for real actionable ways to recognize and combat my own unconscious biases, and that is most definitely not what the training taught (if it taught anything is debatable). It was mostly like, “Hey, sometimes we think terrible things and don’t realize it. That’s an unconscious bias. The end.” Sigh. I think these trainers often have good intentions but obviously themselves lack training.

  124. BeeFree*

    Does anyone know anything about the new contractor law in CA? AB5? I am not a contractor but wondering how it may impact some of my coworkers who are and probably would be affected.

    1. Goose Lavel*

      It has something to do with being labeled a contractor versus full-time employee.

      I suggest Googling it for further details

  125. Wanna-Be Substitute*

    Gah! I’m a dork. After all the AAM posts I’ve read, I think I messed up? I submitted an online application for a part-time role as a Substitute Llama Trainer. It’s well-known this new Company has a crappy IT function, so I wasn’t surprised the “submit” button didn’t work right away. But right before I saw the “click on all the llama pictures” verification step, I noticed a typo in one of the application fields. I fixed it, clicked on all the llamas, and submitted.

    *Then* I noticed a banner across the bottom that said I needed to go back and fill in a missing field… so vague, right? Wth? I have no clue if my application was submitted, and it looked like I may have lost the cover letter attachment once I went back to the verification step. I haven’t received an email confirmation, but maybe that’s not part of the process. Should I re-submit and look like an idiot? Call someone?

    Thank you!

    1. A Simple Narwhal*

      I think you could resubmit, almost every system sends you a confirmation email. And if there’s a chance it went through, I don’t think you’ll look stupid to submit twice, especially if there’s a section for notes where you could add a mention of technical difficulties so apologies if this was submitted twice, etc.

    2. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      So the last thing you say was the “missing field” notification? Did you fill out the missing field and resubmit?! Usually if it kicks you back to that kind of “missing field, fix it.” situation it means that it has not gone through.

      Lots of online forms don’t actually highlight the missing data point, it’s obnoxious!

    3. Anono-me*

      If the company has a reputation for having IT issues, they made assume the second application is actually a problem with their it system and not you submitting two of them.

    4. Space Cadet*

      Any suggestions for dealing with a boss who is friendly but timid? I’m a relatively junior engineer on a 15-person team. Jane is my team lead and has all managerial responsibilities. Several times, I’ve brought a concern to Jane and she’s responded as a friend would (“oh, I’m sorry, that’s really frustrating”) rather than a manager would. It’s gotten to the point where I want to shake her and say “Jane, you are literally the boss! You have authority in this situation!” Complicating the situation is the fact that Jane and I are two of the few non-male engineers, and some of these concerns may be gender-based, like being talked over in meetings – so I can see why Jane doesn’t feel empowered to say anything. What’s the right pathway to address this? Talking to Jane directly about it feels wrong, as if I was trying to coach her.

      1. Not So NewReader*

        Ugh. Well, okay. Ask directly.
        This looks like telling her about problem x and then saying would she please do Y to assist here.

        “Jane, with the increased number of llamas being brought in for grooming, we are having problems keeping the water dishes full for them. We really need to get bigger water containers for them to drink from. Would you please purchase (or authorize the purchase) these containers?”

        And keep doing this for each situation. It’s the slow and painful way of getting bosses to do their thing. If you are lucky, she may ask, “How do I order larger llama dishes?” Just answer her questions in an explanatory tone.
        If you are not lucky, she won’t tell you where the problems are and you will have to ask again later. At that second time, you can ask her if she needs any help with this.

  126. Jessen*

    Easy linkedin question – what’s the rules about adding family on there? My dad works in a similar field to me, so it wouldn’t be purely something that doesn’t make sense. We do actually work for the same company right now, but that may not mean much given that it’s a very big employer in the area.

    I have mixed personal feelings, but those are somewhat aside from this issue.

    Also, do you know where one gets a photo taken if one is in need of a nice-looking photo?

    1. WellRed*

      Is there a glamour shots type place near you for the photo? I’m lucky in that I have a friend who is a professional photographer and manages to photograph me just right, but if I didn’t, I’d still opt for some proefssional headshots. They’re worth it.

    2. Not a Real Giraffe*

      I think you are overthinking your first question. Go ahead and connect with whoever you wish to connect with, regardless if you consider them in your personal circle or your professional circle. I would venture a guess that most LinkedIn users are connected with many, many people outside just their industry. I know I am.

      For your second question, do you or a friend have one of the iPhones with “portrait mode” or the non-Apple equivalent? I’ve had friends ask other friends to take photos of them using their own portrait mode cameras and the results have been really nice!

    3. Art3mis*

      I agree with the overthinking. I’ve added friends/family on there because you never know when knowing someone, even if they are in an unrelated position, will help. However. I refuse to add my husband’s grandma. She’s never worked outside of the home and I don’t want to connect with her on LinkedIn just so she can snoop and send me right wing stuff and angel prayers via yet another medium.

    4. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      I’m connected to my brother and various cousins on LinkedIn. I think the youngest cousin is in a vaguely related field to mine, and the oldest (actually cousin-once-removed) is a Professor Emeritus in my field, and the rest are in unrelated fields. I figure one of the points of LinkedIn is that it’s a place to find someone who knows someone else, so all those familial connections are a really good way to expand all of our chances of finding that someone who knows someone else.

      (There are also a couple of cousins I’m not connected with on LinkedIn. This is complicated, and also totally OK to only connect to some family members but not everyone.)

      For headshots, my husband took my LinkedIn headshot with his digital camera, quite a number of years ago. The slightly newer one I use for conference presentations was taken by my mom using my iPad.

  127. Alas alack*

    I have always wondered why companies chose which of these two pay schedules … set dates (1st & 15th, for instance) vs “Every two weeks”.

    My current job is “every two weeks” and I haaaaaate it as I struggle to get all my bills set up on auto-pay. I guess if you have a big financial buffer, it wouldn’t matter that the bill came a day before payday… but I am still catching up after unemployment and every penny being spent is my last penny! There is no buffer.

    Why chose one or the other schedule?

    1. Bunny Girl*

      We’re every two weeks too and I don’t like it for the same reasons. I feel like I can never pay anything on the same date each month. The only benefit I see is that our deductions (like health and parking and whatever) are set up for the biweekly schedule, so if we happen to get paid three times in one month, then we get a little extra money on the last one since we don’t have anything besides the normal taxes taken out of it.

          1. valentine*

            The twice-monthly schedule allows them to run payroll less often and possibly to have more time to catch up depending on how many people they have to make adjustments for. I would think the consistency of 26 payouts would help you with autopay.

    2. Red Reader the Adulting Fairy*

      I don’t like 1st/15th (etc) because, when those are on the weekends, they actually become the 2nd and the 14th, or whatever, it’s inconsistent – especially if you’re paid hourly and the number of hours in the pay period can vary widely. I much prefer being able to budget to a consistent pay period and every-two-weeks.

      1. Countess Boochie Flagrante*

        Agreed. I’ve always been on the biweekly schedule rather than the semimonthly, and having the consistent Friday paydays works well for me. It also creates greater consistency with regard to timecard submission deadlines — ie, we always have to have our timecards for the week finalized by the following Monday in order to get paid on Friday, and if Monday’s a holiday, we have to have them in by Sunday.

        Plus, with 26 paychecks a year instead of 24, there are 2 each year that wind up outside the usual “rent/other bills” paycheck pattern, that I can use for splurging a bit, since I don’t budget them in.

        1. Alas alack*

          We always submitted our time card every Thursday, on the 1st/15th jobs. Very consistent.

          I guess what you are used to feels best! :)

    4. A Simple Narwhal*

      My office only pays once a month, which is actually the second place I’ve worked that did that. Some people complained that it was too much temptation to have their entire pot of money for the month available all at once, but that was mostly at Oldjob where it was typically people’s first job, but honestly I don’t mind it. I get paid on the 1st (or the Friday before if the first is on a weekend), I pay all of my bills on the second, and then boom, the rest of the month is mine.

      Though I have heard it’s been an issue when people quit. Since they pay you for the month ahead people have been asked to write a check back to the company to make up for the remaining days they didn’t work. I heard people try and arrange it so they put their two weeks notice in on the ~14th, but I’ve also heard people have been like “come after me if you want it” and nothing has happened so… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

        1. A Simple Narwhal*

          Yea it is kinda weird, my previous place paid us for the month we had just worked, not for the month we are about to work.

      2. De Minimis*

        One of my previous jobs was once a month. We paid on the 26th, so you were pretty much done with the month by the time you got paid, and the last 4-5 work days of the month were the only part that you got in advance. My state’s labor law requires that departing employees receive their final paychecks either on their last day or within two days depending on how much notice is given so no one ever was left holding the bag if someone left abruptly [which almost never happened.]

        For me it wasn’t temptation but it really brought home how much you were spending every month since you didn’t have that cash replenishment every two weeks. I prefer biweekly. The worst is semi-monthly especially when it’s oddball dates. 1st and 15th is okay since it’s not a huge difference from biweekly, but I used to get paid on the 7th and 27th and that was no fun at all.

      4. Hydrangea*

        I just switched to a once a month place and my biggest gripe is that I will get paid on 11/27/19, 12/23 and 1/31. That is going to make it a very rough January for some people (hopefully not me- I’m trying to squirrel away extra savings) Like, the office is closed that week but the bank is not – schedule the payroll for sometime between Xmas and NYE.

    5. Rick Tq*

      We are on a 15th and last schedule and I asked the owner why we couldn’t go to every 2 weeks instead. His immediate answer was cash flow. We see the 3rd check in a month as an advantage, he (and the bank) see a month with 50% higher payroll outlay.

      Regarding the bills due the day before payday: Have you tracked how long it takes for the payment to clear out of your account? I never had a problem mailing a check that would be an overdraft for 2 or 3 days if I already knew the check would take a week to process. Even electronic payments don’t always clear my checking account the day I specify yet they are credited as paid on time on the other side’s web site.

    6. Not So NewReader*

      There was a court case a while ago where employees sued a company for lost pay because of paying on two set dates each month. The employees argued that they lost a week’s (??) pay or more. The company argued they did not lose any pay, but paid up ANYWAY.

      At one job I argued that I was losing pay and I was successful in that argument. I think in part because I got paid one day a month and that day fluctuated WILDLY. I never knew when I would see my check. The tide turned when I had an instance of going 6 weeks with no pay. The real special part here was that people asked why that was a problem. Yes, sincerely asked that question. It took me several days to give a calm answer, “Because I need to pay my monthly bills.” My boss tried to figure out a reason for the behavior and because of reading here I was prepared. She thought they figured I did not need the money. I simply said, “It’s totally inappropriate for anyone to be making assumptions about my financial setting. That is very unprofessional because they have crossed over into my personal life and my personal financial setting. They owe me the money and it needs to be paid promptly or I will go to the DOL.” End of problem.

    7. tamarack and fireweed*

      I was taken aback about the “every two weeks” thing, being from Europe, but on the other hand I got used to it. One salary payment equals 1/26th of the year (plus/minus bonus or special payouts or whatever, which I don’t have), and 80 h, so that makes it easy. Also, it’s close enough to “every half month” that I budget as if it WERE half my monthly salary, and then, twice a year, I have an extra influx of money! To be used as needed, for high priority off-budget stuff, or for play if I have a cushion.

    8. Kat in VA*

      Mine is kinda in the middle – we’re every other Friday, so I always know when I’m getting paid! (If a holiday like Christmas falls on that Friday, we’re paid the Thursday before)

      The husband is paid on the 7th and 22nd and it’s a huge PITA to keep track of his paycheck. Sometimes those dates are on the weekend, and it’s a crapshoot if they pay the Thursday before, or the Friday before…sometimes even if, say, the 7th falls on a Tuesday, they might pay it that Monday night. They’re never late, but I have to keep track of his with notations on the calendar whereas mine is always every other Friday.

  128. Environmental Compliance*

    In this week’s adventures, we had…….guess what? Another pH violation! Wooooooooooooooooooooooooo /s

    But I think at the very least this has gotten some Very Higher Up’s attention, and with all my documentation, we may have closure in the next couple weeks.

    Also, I totally store the chair from someone who recently left, because mine was a Big n Tall, and I am the exact opposite.

  129. Spargle*

    Job Hunting PEEVE: Job listings that don’t identify the company, just “Thriving Industry Company seeking experienced applicants for positions blah blah”. No one wants to spam a potential employer with multiple applications, but how in the world are you supposed to know who they are or if you even WANT to apply?

    Why do companies do this? I would think it limits their applicant pool significantly, because maybe I already applied, who knows? Is this the company I had an interview with last week? Is it not? Is this the company I know I don’t want to work for under any circumstances?

    So flipping frustrating.

    1. De Minimis*

      The only time I’ve seen when this made sense was for very small companies that had limited office coverage to where they really needed to minimize the chance that applicants would call them–especially in job markets where there were a ton of job seekers. Even if the ad states “No calls” you are always going to have a small percentage who don’t pay attention or think they should call anyway. That small percentage can really add up to where your office is swamped with calls and can’t do anything else.

      It’s still a big headache for applicants, especially if it’s a job market with a lot of smaller employers.

    2. Just wondering*

      I see this from time to time and agree with the other person – they don’t want any calls about the position or for someone to be showing up at their door with their resume demanding to see the hiring manager. If they’re interested in you, they will let you know. But I agree, as a job seeker, it’s annoying for all of the reasons you mentioned.

    3. Picard*

      From the other side of things, it can also be that someone is on their way out the door and you don’t necessarily want to reveal that to others (or them!)

      1. De Minimis*

        That makes perfect sense. I hadn’t thought of that before.

        It would be funny and awful if the person leaving was already looking for something else and applied to their current job.

  130. Leona*

    Hi everyone, longtime lurker here – I just wanted to say this is a wonderful community (so rare in open online forums!) and that I’ve learned so much from you and Alison. In fact, next week I start a new job for the first time in almost two years, and I have to thank AAM for that. I leaned heavily on Alison’s advice about cover letters and resumes, but I especially credit this community with the fact that I aced the interview, which I found out later is what got me the job. I felt calm and prepared for every question and was able to have fun and ask the questions that really mattered to me; I know this wouldn’t have been the case before I found AAM. So, thank you all so much for helping me feel less alone in my endless job search and more equipped to land a job and start it on the right foot! You all are lovely people and Alison is a rockstar.

  131. Pregananant*

    My OB has officially scheduled my induction which means that I was able to send my official “My maternity leave starts in one week, your problems are no longer mine, please contact Coworker A and Coworker B for all your llama analysis needs over the next four months” email. Now I just need to go (uncomfortably) sit at my desk and run out the clock for five more working days because neither the US health care system nor my manager can possibly imagine any reason why a very, very pregnant person might want a couple of days off work before actually popping the baby out.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      Congratulations!

      I hope your labor is as pleasant as mine was: induction started at 1am (they had a super busy day and didn’t get me in until 11:45pm), nap from 1:30am – 6am, epidural at 6:30, pop goes the baby around 10am, minor tearing.

  132. Librariann*

    I took my first vacation in at least five years this past weekend. It was only two days, but I can’t believe how much of a difference it made. I went camping, which I was really skeptical about. Turns out I love it. :) Ya’ll, TAKE YOUR VACATION TIME.

    2. Vacay oh Yay!*

      Yay you! I grew up camping but we – as a couple – don’t do it because the Army and Air Force ruined it for us :) What about it helped you change your mind? We’re avid hikers and RV’ers.

      We recently took a week + off vacation (meaning NO FAMILY to visit) and it was delicious! My husband was in Chicago for an annual conference so I took Monday off to prep, flew up Tuesday and did my own thing for 2 days and then we drove to Milwaukee for a couple of days. The weather was great, food awesome, highlights and tourism fun, and the people friendly. The last time we did has this type of ‘no family requirements’ vacation was in 2014.

      +100 “Ya’ll, TAKE YOUR VACATION TIME.”

  133. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

    I am a few months into a new job in a new/complex industry, and have been basically learning and ramping up this entire time. That part has been fine, and while there is a lot to learn…I am realizing there are lot of extraneous things this company does to work harder, not smarter. I am finally understanding all the many tools and systems and meetings upon meeting upon meetings and whatnot. However! This week it dawned on me, that I am, in fact, in one of those banana pants pockets in the company. And there is no way to get off this team. I think the team members want to make it less banana pants as evidenced by some of the meeting interactions this week where we had a collective “huh?”, but the leader is convinced that working harder, not smarter garners a better reputation on the leader level. It may be the first time I’ll have to jump ship and not put a short stint on my resume. /revelation

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Yep, you’re looking at this right. Personally, I have worked smarter in stealth mode. I didn’t let them see me working smarter. But the work harder mindset was still surrounding me externally and was annoying. You are right though, this is not an environment to stay in for too long.

      1. Surrogate Tongue Pop*

        Yeah, I have a pretty good read on people and a whole bunch of info was just exposed this week to confirm what were previously suspicions. I had a yellow flag up for a while in my head, but I think now it is dark red! I try to work smarter in stealth mode, and other areas have verbally appreciated the changes I’ve implemented in some of the processes to work smarter overall for the benefit of all process participants. The people impacted have not pushed back on the changes and have said “thank you, setting expectations has helped”. Leader has said that it’s OK and all, but thinks the changes are too strict, but did not indicate why (leader does not directly participate in said process). That’s when I started scratching my head.

        So, for the first time in my 20 year career, I think I have to bail on this new job. Don’t have anything lined up, but don’t need to financially as I am queen of saving. Just sigh. Hard not to feel like a professional failure (as this job was a promotion of sorts), even though logic tells me it’s just not going to get better and leader thinks that the more things put on the proverbial team’s plate just to show volume = success. Even when most of the team doesn’t even understand why the work would be in our purview, and nor do I.

        I guess I…just leave this one off the old resume and don’t mention in any future interviews.

  134. TechWorker*

    More of an update than a question – I’ve had a really stressful ~year where I was managing a project that was previously badly managed and generally just too tight. Things have been slightly improving (& a promotion helped) but now due to a re-org I am changing managers. My new manager is more experienced and crucially not excessively optimistic and I am *so* happy about this!! I complained for ages about the team being too small and the new manager has basically immediately agreed that we definitely need more people in the short term and is suggesting that we might need more people in the long term too. I might…. not have to spend all my time being stressed about quality… and actually have all the things I’m doing tracked rather than taken as read that they’re ‘absorbable’. It’s been so great talking to him already – I have a lot of respect from my previous manager but I think he was overstretched and didn’t actually have time to do all the things he said he would (that optimism again…) – I think I’ve got more time from the new manager in the last week than I got from the old one in the last month. :)

  135. Who the eff is Hank?*

    I think I may have one of the first “gumption” success stories.

    First, a little background: earlier this year I had a baby, quit my corporate event planning job, and moved back to my hometown. I hadn’t been to my hometown in about a decade so I checked out all the new things around town, including a new local coffee shop. 

    The first thing I noticed about the coffee shop was their events board. It was packed with different events every day of the week and it looked like they hosted a lot of fun stuff. I thought that planning their events must be a cool job, then got my coffee and moved on with my day.

    A few days later I was still thinking about their events and how that would be a perfect part time job for me. I found the manager’s email on their website and sent him my resume, explaining a little bit about my background and saying that if they ever needed help with events I’d love to help out. I never expected to hear anything back. So imagine my surprise when I received a reply the next day asking me to interview!
    As it turned out, the person who plans their events is leaving for grad school at the end of the month and they needed a replacement. And the position is conveniently a part time position. I did two rounds of interviews and was offered the job, which I accepted.

    I’m hesitant to tell this story to anyone in the real world because I don’t want to encourage “gumption” approaches to applying for jobs. But apparently it works sometimes!

    1. Catsaber*

      Congrats! Sounds like it will be a great set up. I think this is more of a successful “networking” story than a “gumption” story…my interpretation of gumption would be have been – you walked right into his office and told him, “I’m the person for the job! When do I start?”. The way you introduced yourself via email could have been easily ignored if he wasn’t looking to hire anyone. Gumption is when you blow past people’s boundaries and common courtesy. :)

    2. Third or Nothing!*

      That’s similar to how I got my first full time post-college job! I was doing some research for my internship and came across a company I really liked the sound of. I thought I might as well send an email to ask if they were in need of a marketer, and lo and behold they were about to start looking for one!

    3. Just wondering*

      I would not call this gumption! You were strategic and more nonchalant about it rather than “I demand you hire me. Look at my resume right this second.” Congrats on the new gig! I hope it works out well.

      1. Environmental Compliance*

        And there were no flowers/chocolate/framed picture collage sent with the resume! This is totally networking, no gimmicky gumption to be found.

        Congrats!!!

    4. academic librarian*

      This is not a “gumption” story. This is proactive, hey I noticed and I am available story. I have my present position because I wanted to work with the person who I assumed had it on a special project, ended up contacting the director, found out the position was open, and was asked to interview.

  136. AccountantWendy*

    If you have relocated from one country to another for work, please share your advice, especially around what expenses the company should be paying for, or anything you wish had known, what you found most stressful and what the company might have done to alleviate that stress. Specific relocation is from the USA to the UK (England) so if you have done that, advice is especially welcome around things likes, was your salary fixed in dollars and converted to pounds or was it fixed in pounds? What currency were you paid in? How do taxes work? How do you get healthcare as an American citizen in the UK? What things were surprisingly more expensive in England? Is it worth buying a car for a 2 or 3 year stay or is that just a great big unnecessary expense in a city? It’s a single person, not a family, who is relocating.

    Any and all advice welcome!

    2. Fikly*

      I can answer the healthcare – as long as you come over on a visa – which I assume you will be, as you will be working – the second you step foot in the UK, you are covered under the NHS. But you will want to prioritize registering with a GP, that’s the first step to accessing care.

  137. Effective Immediately*

    As someone whose entire C-suite has been taken in by a personality-test ‘leadership coach’ snakeoil salesman, that NYT article could not have been more timely.

  138. JustaTech*

    How do I get my coworker to lay off about how I should go home early or work from home more?

    One of my coworkers (we’re peers, but I’ve been here about 6 years longer than her) is suddenly all about working from home. I totally get why, her commute has gotten much worse in the past year and now she has a dog so she needs to be home more. I am 100% fine with her WFH on days when she doesn’t have meetings or lab work.

    What’s bugging the heck out of me is how often she suggests that I should work from home, or go home early, or something similar. I don’t like working from home. I don’t have a great set up (just a laptop, rather than all my screens) and frankly, I’m lonely and unproductive at home. (And my commute is trivial.) I do it when I need to stay home for people working on my house, and since I just moved I expect I will be doing it more in the near future.

    But there’s just something about her pushing me to WFH that bugs me. We only just got the OK to WFH again after a whole bunch of fuss by senior management about a year, year and half ago about people never being at work (and some people WFH in other states), so some people are cautious about doing it for fear of a negative reaction from on-high. I wonder if my coworker is pushing me to WFH so *her* WFH is less obvious?

    Suggestions on how to respond? “Nope, I’m good here!”?

    1. Catsaber*

      Yes – “I’m good!” is a great response because it’s quick and there’s nothing she can challenge in it. I’m all about the WFH, but if it’s not your jam, it’s not your jam (it’s a preference like any other! though I totally feel you on the screens thing). It may feel repetitive to say that all the time, but that’s the point – don’t give her anything she could argue/reason with, just be a broken record about it, and eventually she should give up.

      It could be she’s feeling insecure about WFH, or it could be she just loves it so much she wants to spread the good news. But either way, she shouldn’t push it.

    2. Allison*

      Tell her what you told us! “Linda, I love the flexibility to work from home when I need to, but I actually prefer being in the office most days, since my home setup isn’t great and I get lonely when I spend the whole day at home.”

      1. valentine*

        I wouldn’t give her reasons, lest she bang on about solutions. Next time, tell her, “I’m good, so let’s leave it there.”

    3. A Simple Narwhal*

      “I’m thrilled that working from home is working so well for you! I’ve found that between my short commute and home office setup (or lack thereof) that coming into the office works best for me. I appreciate your suggestion but it just isn’t the right choice for me.”

      If she continues after that, you could probably say “I’ve mentioned before that working from home doesn’t work for me, knowing this would you mind stop suggesting it to me? Again, I’m thrilled to see it work so well for you, but it’s just not right for me.”

      Hopefully it won’t need to progress beyond that!

    4. Policy wonk*

      Co-worker is concerned that you are getting more facetime with the boss/management, and wants you to work from home to equalize things. Nothing you say will get her to stop, except to tell her that she has already asked you 87 times, and the answer is still that you aren’t interested. That may not make her stop, but at least you tried.

  139. thin acetate frames*

    Any advice on how to shut down a married couple in a technical meeting? The husband is consistently making sexist remarks about/to wife that make wife uncomfortable. I have spoken up and backed up someone else who said it was TMI only to be shut down by the husband. It is recurring.

    1. Jules the 3rd*

      wow. Ok, peer pressure didn’t work. Can you get any kind of boss to step in? Say the sexist remarks make you uncomfortable? Mention that someone has said something directly and was ignored.

      1. valentine*

        only to be shut down by the husband
        If there’s someone you can team up with, verbally corral the husband. (Assuming hiring a birthday cowboy to lasso him each time wouldn’t fly in your workplace.) Otherwise, don’t let him shut you down. He doesn’t have some sort of right to browbeat or humiliate his wife at work or to be sexist, so broken-record him. No matter how he insists, you say, “Well, it’s not appropriate (anywhere) and we need to move on with this meeting.”

        I don’t suppose you can exclude him from your meetings or slip her a business card with 800-799-SAFE on it.

  140. Allison*

    I’m mentioning this because we’ve had recent-ish conversations about whether you could cold contact people who work at a company you’re interested in. As a reminder, I’m not a fan of fielding these messages, because most people messaging me are trying to circumnavigate the application process, and I usually just tell people if they’re interested in a job, they should apply to it directly.

    Anyway, last week I get a message from someone saying she was interested in a job in our [redacted] location. Now, my current employer doesn’t have an office there, but my old employer does, so I said “Hey, it looks like you’re trying to get a job at [last company I worked for], I actually left that company a few years ago, I work at [current company] now, but if you’re interested in working there you should apply!”

    Actually, she was interested in the job I had before my last job, which I had forgotten also had an office in that town. I left that company five and a half years ago, and was absolutely baffled that she thought it was a good idea to message me. I don’t know if LinkedIn suggested me as someone to reach out to with questions (why would that even happen?) or if she ran a search for people who work at that company and just, I dunno, missed that I’m former employee? People, PEOPLE, if you feel you simply must make a connection at a desired employer, please take a minute to look at someone’s profile and make sure they actually work there!

    And then she was like “oh your company looks interesting too, could you look at my profile and let me know if I’d be a good fit?” like I’m gonna go out of my way to fast-track a total stranger through the hiring process, or coach her on how to present herself as a candidate, after they’ve shown me their attention to detail is awful. She apologized in case she “offended” me. I’m not “offended,” that’s a pretty strong word, I’m just, like I said, baffled, and a little frustrated with the whole thing. Guys, don’t do this.

  141. merp*

    I think I know the answer to this issue (breathe, etc) but I’ve noticed that I have pretty firm thresholds for when things go from being Fine to Not Fine. Specifically when it comes to tasks on my plate at the moment. If I have up to 5 things, it’s all good, and then the 6th thing will just… make my brain immediately chaotic. I think it’s an issue where I feel like I have to hold too many things in recent memory at once – even though that’s not true, I have notes for all of them if I forget anything.

    Anyone deal with something similar and have tips? Or should I just keep making my to-do lists and try to keep breathing?

    1. fposte*

      I love this self-discovery; it makes such cognitive sense and I’m impressed that you were able to pin it down to an actual number. Can you reconceptualize your plate a little? What if you had a five-thing limit for the current work day, or the current work half day, and the rest were overflow until another time period? I don’t know how visual the five-thing limit is, but you could even chunk your to-do lists so they have a five-thing limit; overflow goes to the tomorrow list or B-list or whatever. You could also color code (I do a lot of highlighting on my to-do list) and limit to 5 items for each color category.

      Basically, I think your challenge is to have a parking lot category that means something different to you than your current to-do list. I’d start by trying to create that with your to-do tools rather than just mentally, because hey, let’s make technology do the work for us whenever we can.

      1. merp*

        The concept of a parking lot category has blown my mind a little, that’s *exactly* the thing I need. Thank you!

    2. Not So NewReader*

      Affirmations are helpful. “I will work into this.” or “I can train my brain to deal and process this.”

      A good exercise that has been helpful for me is to remember similar times and recall how I did successfully get through it. OTH, sometimes all a person might need is to recall something that was A Big Hot Mess and remind themselves that they got through BHM and so they shall get through this new mess, also.

      A good thing to know is that this is not instant, it takes time and practice. Our load level tolerances do go up as we go along. Think back to your first day, five tasks/projects might have sent you right out the door. It’s good that you know when you have a concern. Some folks allow themselves to get buried and then say, “What went wrong?” You don’t have this problem. This is a worse problem to have, I think, because low awareness really ticks bosses and others right off.

      Another angle to look at is what are your general go-to’s when you get overloaded? In some places I have worked I have been able to partner up with a cohort and we agreed to bail each other. It was a constant back and forth, with each person taking a turn pulling the other one out from under a pile of work.

      Another go-to, that might be useful, is to start creating priorities according to deadline. At my current job I have no peer to help share the load. So I look for the Hot Potatoes and handle those things first. Some stuff has a fast 24 hour turn around. I usually get it done in less than 24 hours. Unless of course, I forget it! Which led me to a system where I put stuff in my own way, I have to move it to do anything. In the process of moving it, “Oh yeah, I gotta do this right now.”

      How’s your NO doing? Do you say NO to people when you need to? If not, this is a good time to start exercising your NO. This does not have to be harsh. There are soft NO’s such as, “The earliest I can get to it is 3 days from now.” And there are No’s that redirect the conversation. This is helpful with Boss or Other PTB. “I am working on Five Alarm Fire right now, would you prefer I stop and do Unnecessary Thing instead?”

      On some jobs I would write a list each night before leaving, so I would remember exactly where to pick up at in the morning. This did help me to use time wisely and I felt less stressed overall.

      Last and my fav. When I know things are piling up at work, I go to bed early. It’s amazing how rest can help building coping abilities.

      1. merp*

        Mhm, yes, the 5 things shrinks to like.. 2 things if I haven’t slept. Thanks for all your suggestions! No is tough, but good to keep in mind. :)

  142. Semaj*

    I’m taking a two week vacation soon! I feel guilty about it though, and I’m trying not to. I’ve never taken off this long, but I’m getting married and going on my honeymoon and I figured if there was ever an opportunity to take off two weeks this is it. My boss approved it no problem, but they’ve made it clear they’re worried about the two week period without me. They’ve also emphasized that I shouldn’t worry about work while I’m away but I can’t shake the lingering guilt that there’s a lot going on right now and I’ll be out for two whole weeks. I guess I’m torn between worrying that I’m letting my team down by being absent and also worrying that they’ll learn how to do my job so well that then they won’t need me?

    1. Bigglesworth*

      Please enjoy your honeymoon guilt free! Just think – what would they do if you won the lottery and immediately quit the next day (the happier version of “What would they do if you got hit by a bus?”) It’s only two weeks – they’ll manage just fine. Getting married is a big life event and you should celebrate, relax, and enjoy it and the honeymoon as much as possible.

    2. Jules the 3rd*

      They’ll get critical things done by working a little extra and letting their 2nd tier priority things slide. When you get back, everyone will be relieved because they can catch up on their own 2nd tier tasks. You will still have to finalize the critical tasks and handle your own 2nd tier tasks, which have been able to wait 2 weeks just fine and can wait until you get to them.

      Have a great time on your honeymoon, and don’t think about work. It’ll be fine.

    3. Not So NewReader*

      They will be so relieved to give you back your work when you return, that you will wonder why you worried.

      Leave notes on things, leave instructions. If you expect something that needs special handling leave instructions for that. Pick a person who is most likely to pick up most of your stuff and go over things more with that person.

      Sometimes I was able to delay some stuff until I got back. This does not come up too often, but it’s good to watch for opportunities where you can use this strategy.

      A former boss used to say it took the first week of vacation to convince herself she was actually on vacation. The second week she was able to enjoy it.

      Understand something else, you have this set up in your mind such that you cannot win. You have it covered on either end- they want you too much or they don’t want you at all. Tell yourself that these are extremes and usually extremes are not true. In your setting here, the extremes are mutually exclusive because they cannot want you and not want you at the same time.
      Ease up on you. The boss said it was okay. And it’s okay to allow yourself to believe the boss.

  143. LadyTesla*

    Any advice for dealing with dueling bosses?

    I work as a consultant on the client site, and this has happened many times now. I have some great great grand boss that tosses me into a group and says “build x”. Great, no problem. However, that group is really two groups with two bosses. Usually they get a long, but Boss A and Boss B will sometimes decide something separately that’s different, or they change their mind without telling each other. OR, they’ll disagree and I’m there sitting there as my dress changes from pink to blue like Aurora.

    I’ve gotten them into a room, and I say “ok, it’s blue now right?” They nod. Then two hours go by an I hear from a coworker, “Hey, Boss A decided it’s now pink”. Hachi Machi…

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Can you ask to deal with just one person who collects up all decisions and gives you the final decision?
      You could couch it under the guise of how it is to their own advantage because changes cost money, so it would be the best use of money to do something once and not keep redoing it.

    2. Choosing a career path?*

      If you’re a consultant, maybe you could email both bosses whenever a decision is made. “Merryweather has instructed me that the gown is now blue. Can you both sign off on that?” Or even just an email to Merryweather, cc’ing Flora. “Per our conversation today, gown is blue! Thanks.”

  144. Bigglesworth*

    Hey everyone! Exciting news – I landed a post-Law school interview!

    Long story short: Interviewed with a position i didn’t think I would qualify for and made friends with my interviewer.

    I live and work in the DC area. Currently, I’m a part-time evening student and work at a law firm during the day. One of my friends who works at the DOT told me that I should apply to their Legal Honors program since I (mostly) qualify. Sent in my application no expecting anything and BAM! Was asked to interview within a week. Now I’m in the waiting stage to see if I made t on to the next round.

    Downside: It’s government, so it could take a while to hear back.

    Upside: My interviewer and I really hit it off. He’s a young attorney (about my age – I worked between law school and undergraduate so I’m older than most of my peers). We discovered that we both wrote our undergrad history thesis’s on the Civil War, both like Star Wars, and various other geeky connections. After sending a follow-up email with information that he requested, he followed up with the professional, “We don’t need anything more from you right now concerning the job” and then sent another follow-up from his personal email following up on a geeky recommendation I made in my follow-up email. The personal conversation is continuing on, which is awesome. Even if I don’t get the job (which would make me very sad), I’ve potentially made a new friend.

  145. HigherEd Anonymous*

    God, it’s wearing having to deal with a colleague who complains about everything but won’t make a change when it’s offered to her.

    Her: “I hate my office!”
    *administration offers her a new office*
    Her: “No, I’m staying right here! Also, I hate my office.”

    Her: “We need a workshop on this topic!”
    *campus offers workshop*
    Her: “I would have to get to campus by 10 AM and I want to sleep in. But we need a workshop!”

    Her: “I hate online teaching!”
    *administration offers her face-to-face classes*
    Her: “I hate coming to campus for this many classes! But also I really hate online teaching.”

    Also, “my voice is never heard.” I half-want to tell her it never will be as long as she just does endless complaining and also complains about the solutions offered, but there’s no point to that, so I just roll my eyes and move on.

    1. Not So NewReader*

      Me: “Gosh, it’s hard to work with people who endlessly complain!”
      Her: [something, something]
      Me: Gosh, it’s hard to work with people who endlessly complain!”

      My sympathies. They call it WORK for a reason, just sayin’.

    2. Catsaber*

      Wow, they actually offered her a *different* office? I’ve been in higher ed all my career, offices are SO HARD to come by. It’s even tough for some of the full-time faculty to get their own office. She sounds like maybe a career in higher ed is not for her…

      I had a coworker like this in my last job, and I took to just responding with, “Well, what are you going to do about it?” usually that works for chronic complainers, but sometimes it will just set the person off about all the things THEY could do if THEY had power, authority, etc etc. Use with caution.

      1. HigherEd Anonymous*

        Yes, it was because someone retired at the end of last semester and she was first in line by seniority to take the office. But she complained that the new office was further from the building’s printer (which, it is, but…by like 15 feet) and further from the little area where the faculty have their own microwave and fridge (again, it is, but one reason she claims to hate her current office is that it’s right by that area and she says she’s disturbed by people going in and out). So at this point I think the complaint is just for the complaint’s sake and not because she actually would take a different office if offered. Either that, or she wants an office close to both the printer and the kitchen area with no disadvantages, which, um, doesn’t exist.

        1. valentine*

          “Oh, we hear you, alright!”

          Think of the complaints as a process she runs. (Frequently.) My fridge makes loud, scary noises that you could mistake for someone trying to break in or random stuff falling. I mostly experience it as background now. That’s how she is. Maybe no solutions is best, and I’m wondering if no response would also help.

  146. Allypopx*

    So. My manager is giving her notice next week. I work for a teensy organization, 4 employees, so this will be a big deal. I am the only person well-positioned to take her position, but I’m worried that there’s going to be an expectation that I take on all her work while we “see what we can do” about salary and title change and I really feel like I need to push back on that and establish hard timelines, to the extent I can.

    So basically I need help with scripts for “I’m willing to step up but expect to be fairly compensated for that”. We’re all paid below market value but I am paid RIDICULOUSLY below market value for the responsibilities I’m almost certainly going to have in three weeks. However, nonprofits, so “step up and be a team player” is also a big thing that people will be looking at.

    Advice for talking about this with my grandboss when the time comes?

    1. Not So NewReader*

      You could offer to take on A, B and C for a time frame from X date to Y date. After Y date, you will request a meeting to restructure what you are doing.

  147. Undine*

    If the remarks are objective sexist, you absolutely have standing to go to HR. You don’t have to be the object of sex-based discrimination to place a harassment complaint. With that in mind, you can say, “This conversation has no place at work. Next time, I’m going to HR.”

  148. Anony Mouse*

    Seating change+medical accomodations question…
    So I suddenly got notice I’m moving from a cubicle to a shared smaller office with 1 roomie. At the same time, I have dimmed/no light due to medical accommodations for uveitis (agonizing condition prone to possible unknown recurrence due to autoimmune conditions) and I’ve had to fight tooth and nail to keep the lights off in my cubicle (one maintenance guy reinstalled the lights without permission and he apologized later b/c he didn’t realize it was a medical accommodation with doctor’s extensive notes).

    If I move into this smaller office, how do I advocate for myself (dimmer light/no light) while being respectful of my colleague? Colleague has a 7-3 schedule and I do 8:30-4:30 so there’s 6 hours in full automatic fluorescent light I’m really wanting to avoid, since uveitis is the 5th leading cause of blindness, and I like seeing, etc.

    1. CheeryO*

      I would just let your colleague know ASAP that you need to have the lights off due to a medical condition. You can be polite, but don’t make it seem like it’s optional. If that’s a problem for them, it’s on your employer to figure out another arrangement since you have an official medical accommodation.

    3. fposte*

      I am frankly concerned that your move was handled without any attention to your accommodation needs. That’s really bad practice. I would talk to your manager about this ASAP and not make it just about you and your co-worker.

      That being said, it sucks to work in low light if you need higher light. Are other accommodations possible aside from dimming/turning off the overhead lights? I just googled “cubicle shield to block light” and found a lot of products. Would any of those work? You absolutely could ask your employer to cover the cost of such a thing. The alternative could be a more focused individual lamp for your colleague; a downlight that would illuminate her area without bleaching yours. Again, something your employer should pay for.

    4. BusyBee*

      Are we talking overhead fluorescent light, mostly? Because if so, I would let my office-mate know that the overheard light is an issue, but that X or Y type lighting is fine. For example: if they could have a desk lamp or something that does not aggravate the condition, let them know. I don’t know anyone who LOVES overhead fluorescent light- I would be happy as heck to share with someone who can’t have this type of lighting in their space. And of course you can always bring in HR/your manager since this is a documented medical accommodation.

    5. BlueWolf*

      I think you should be able to ask them not to move you since you need a medical accommodation. If not moving isn’t an option, would you be able to handle your coworker having a desk lamp? That way they still have light but you don’t have the harsh overhead lights.

    6. Anony Mouse*

      Thanks all–I don’t have a choice in the matter. The entire office uses agonizingly bright fluorescent lighting that burns into my eyeballs a bit. I’m checking out the small office area (e.g., see if that separate area has fluorescent lighting too). I also emailed my supervisor to let him know. The future roomie is generally fine/easy to work with too. Time to get creative……

      1. zora*

        If I was your new roomie, I would be SOOOO beyond happy to turn the overhead lights off, and buy a desk lamp/floor lamp for my desk area with the company’s money. So, if that would make things safe for you, definitely put that out there as an idea.

        1. valentine*

          Either they leave you be or remove the lights from your new office and only someone happy (not tolerant, but happy) to be there moves in. No half unscrewing the lights so the other person has options when you’re out because that will lead to forgetting and you shouldn’t have had to fight this hard and it shouldn’t be an ongoing battle.

          What is the obsession with having every single bulb in a room in and on?

  149. Art3mis*

    I would like to formally apologize to anyone who’s ever complained about a coughing co-worker. I’ve always felt like you needed more compassion for the person coughing because surely it doesn’t annoy anyone more than themselves. But now. Now I have a coughing co-worker. And it drives me nuts. Probably doesn’t help that he’s bad at his job. Anyway. I’m sorry. I get it now.

    1. WellRed*

      I’m the coughing coworker (to a certain extent). I know it drives you nuts. It drives me nuts when someone coughs even more than me ; ) #cubelife

      1. Art3mis*

        I know and I feel bad for being annoyed because I know he doesn’t like it either. If he actually knew how to do his job and I wasn’t constantly having to fix things he messed up it would probably bother me a lot less!

  150. Ann O. Nimitee*

    I’ve written before about my burnout and anxiety over leaving my “dream job” and you guys were the best with your comments. Just here to say that an offer for the next thing is imminent and I am SO.EXCITED!

  151. Is it time to take the hint?*

    I’ve been trying to get a different job in my company. More to the point, a job with the title and pay for the work level I have actually been doing for the past almost two years (that’s another story of screwed up corporate organization and priorities). I’ve been strategic and smart about the jobs I apply for, and am running at about a 75% progression to getting interviews with the hiring managers. I have a strong resume and solid interview skills.

    But I am not being selected, and I get the same message most of the time: OMG, the skills you have, the awesome interview, you would do so well in this sort of role, but keep looking, I’ve hired someone else.

    It has gotten to the point where I’m no longer applying to certain new open positions because I’ve already interviewed with the HM multiple times before.

    I know its not personal, blah blah blah, but I feel like I’m progressing beyond the point of perseverance and into needing to take the hint and leave. But I have had limited luck in developing the skills needed to filter for relevant jobs outside of company I work for. I dont want the exact same job. I want one that uses my skills!

    1. Just wondering*

      When they say “keep looking,” see if they have anyone or company they would like to recommend. You never know. Another option could be to ask for feedback on how you could improve.

      Is any of this due to ageism? I hate to think that but we all know it exists.

      1. Is it time to take the hint?*

        When I ask for feedback, I get vague positive platitudes and nothing actionable. I doubt it is agism, but I won’t rule out unconscious sexism.

    3. Kiwiii*

      If you can follow up and ask what specifically would make you a better candidate, that might help — maybe you’re missing a certain weird skill, maybe they already have someone on the team with more skill X than skill Y, maybe you really do need 3 solid years of skill Z and you only have 2.5 rn.

      But also, like sometimes there are just phenomenal candidates in a pool and you would have otherwise been the best one. Maybe after they’ve hired that person, you’re the best person in the pool. There’s no way for you to know unless you keep trying. I was recently (I’ve been here about 5 weeks) hired for a position where I was head and shoulders above the rest of the pool (I have a certain set of experiences that basically amount to me having done the hard part of job already PLUS an optional skill that means the learning curve for the rest of it will be a lot less dramatic than anyone they’ve previously hired), but two of the other candidates also would have been genuinely Really Good. My boss specifically emailed them encouraging them to apply next time (and it’s a just above entry level tech job so there’s pretty regular openings as people gain enough skills to go mid-level or transfer to different teams) because we really would love to have them.

      1. Is it time to take the hint?*

        If I get the interview, I get declined for lack of specific product experience. although I have the industry experience. I know for as fact that one of the interviews was just for going through the motions, they already had an internal person ready for promotion, and I suspect much the same for at least three other interviews. I have asked for and received feedback on my interviews: I’m awesome, nothing really to improve on. Since these are internal jobs, they have access to my performance reviews and former managers, who all sing my praises. I’ve been told about postings and encouraged to try for positions I normally wouldn’t screen for. They all seem to want me to get THAT job, they just don’t want to be it. And I’m running out of places here to look, having been not selected so many times.

        1. Kiwiii*

          Is there a way you can get specific product experience in your current role? Is there a way for you to find out if there’s a shoo-in internal candidate before you apply or get to the interview stage?

          It sounds like you’re getting a bit frustrated with the process and I don’t blame you. It seems that they’re trying to be helpful by passing along another similar-level listing, but it’s coming across as salt in the wound. Perhaps looking externally is the right next step if you’re feeling passed over here?

          1. Is it time to take the hint?*

            I’m not a bit frustrated, I am deeply frustrated. I know they are trying to be nice and helpful, but getting another pat on the head while they hand the prize to someone else is no longer encouraging, it is humiliating.

            1. Buu*

              If these are all internal jobs is it possible someone is blocking you moving? If you did move on they’d have to hire for the job you’re actually doing not the one you’ve been paid for. It could also be they have a rigid checklist and you don’t meet an arbitrary criteria for moving.

              If I’ve read you right then perhaps you should consider applying at an external company?

  152. The dude*

    I think I’ve mentioned this before: I’ve just resigned from a job. My employer always paid me (a white guy) incredibly well, but there have been systemic problems not paying women and minorities fairly. And that’s why I left: I have an in demand skill set that a lot of people want, and I couldn’t look at myself in the mirror knowing I was making the big bucks as a place that was treating others so unequally. New job is not perfect but better.

    Am I absolutely nuts to have resigned over this, when it doesn’t affect me personally? The few people I’ve told the real reasons to look at me like I’ve grown a second head when I mention it.

    1. fposte*

      I think being part of a dysfunctional and discriminatory system absolutely affects you personally. I don’t think we can be completely free of the larger one, but that doesn’t mean you have to just look the other way and take the money when you had better options.

    2. Daughter of Ada and Grace*

      Mad respect to you dude!

      I suspect you’re making people uncomfortable, but you’re doing it for a good reason. When women and minorities point out that they’re being treated unfairly, they get ignored. When white guys point out that women and minorities are being treated unfairly, it’s a lot harder to ignore. And I imagine this something a lot of people would much rather continue to ignore (especially if they’re benefiting from the systemic problem, and someone like them is actively refusing to take advantage of that system).

    3. Parenthetically*

      “Am I absolutely nuts to have resigned over this, when it doesn’t affect me personally?”

      UH NO. You are rad.

    4. Kiwiii*

      While I don’t think you’re nuts for having resigned over this, I do wonder if you could have done anything at OldJob to try and fix it. For example, asking to bring your female/poc coworkers up to your level or pointing out that they’re paid so much less than you or advocating for large raises for them.

    5. ACDC*

      What you did is certainly noble and respectable, but it realistically won’t change how your old company’s pay scale works. I think you get weird reactions from people because they think you’re expecting your protests of sorts to change the company. With that being said, if you were uncomfortable with the current status quo and you had a way out, that is definitely not crazy.

    6. LawBee*

      Did you explicitly tell them their discriminatory policies are the reason you left?

      I mean, otherwise this is a “look at me being an awesome white man who is so very woke” post that you’ve already “mentioned this before”.

      1. The dude*

        This is a fair question. I did explicitly tell them.

        In particular, I told a colleague who was applying for the same position I used to have my old salary, and when she referenced my salary in her negotiation, they told her it was bad that she had discussed it with me. I told them that that was the straw that broke them camel’s back for me.

        1. The dude*

          Thanks. Sorry I shouldn’t have mentioned it. I wasn’t trying to get applause from internet strangers. I’m just trying to figure out why people have been reacting negatively to me. I guess it comes across as attention seeking.

          1. Phoenix Programmer*

            I think it is good you asked because it gives you a perspective people could be getting from your real reason.

            Like it or not, some will assume you are virtual signalling. I think one thing you can do is update your narrative.

            It’s not “I left because gender and POC pay gap” it’s “I left after discovering that I was paid significantly more then some of my equally capable coworkers. When we brought this up to management my co-workers were reprimanded, I knew then the culture was not for me.”

            You don’t even have to make it about “the gap”. You can spell it out.

          2. T. Boone Pickens*

            People are reacting negatively because you’re at the peak of Woketop Mountain trying to show what an awesome dude you are by quitting your job even though you’re doing it from a place of huge leverage with an in demand skill set. Let’s be honest, it’s not like you’re actually risking anything here as you mentioned you were very well paid and have already landed another high paying job.

            I will give you kudos on sharing your salary with your former colleague who was going through the salary negotiation. Hopefully they were able to advocate a higher raise for themselves.

            1. The dude*

              New job doesn’t pay nearly as well, but when I did my due diligence, their approach to compensation in general is much healthier.

    7. Annabelle G.*

      Unpopular Opinion: Yeah, you’re nuts.

      But I’m a selfish person, so take that with a grain of salt. I would not quit my job just because others are being paid less, but this is because I value taking care of my family – and to a lesser extent myself – over anything else. Quitting a well paying job runs counter to that value.

      1. The dude*

        I mean that makes sense to me. I’m unmarried with no family. I think the calculation would have been different if I had more obligations.

    8. irene adler*

      I think you are brave to have done so.
      One thought occurs: If you had stayed, could you have influenced (to any degree) the management to get them to change their policies to pay co-workers fairly? That would be my only criticism of such a move.

    9. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      I don’t think so! People who discriminate against minorities, well, suck. You resigned because the people you worked for suck.

    10. Hrovitnir*

      Man, don’t take the particularly negative reactions above on board too hard, it’s good to talk about. And OK to feel weird about due to real life reactions and want support!

      If you bring it up a lot it would look like you’re looking for back pats, for sure, but discussing it absolutely is good. Even slightly normalising the idea of institutionalised discrimination being something that you should care about even when it doesn’t directly hurt you is great. And only leaving because you can afford to do so takes nothing away from it; you do have to look after yourself first.

  153. MsChanandlerBong*

    I recently went back to school to finish my bachelor’s in business. When I enrolled, I saw that I had to take a whole class on spreadsheets, and I was dreading it. I have never thought of myself as particularly math-savvy or adept at Excel. Turns out I LOVE spreadsheets. I’ve learned how to make pivot tables, create line/pie/column/stacked column charts (I already knew how to do line charts, but not at this level of detail), and use all sorts of functions (hlookup, vlookup, nested IF statements, etc.) to make Excel more than just a data-entry program. I only wish I had some use for it all at my current job.

    1. Jamie*

      Please come work here! Or at least drop by and spread the good word. I am all about proselytizing in the office when you’re trying to covert people to the love of advanced Excel use!

      1. MsChanandlerBong*

        Sure! I love the class. I especially like that the practice projects are practical. I had to take an introductory IT course a while back, and none of the practice tasks were really applicable to the work world. For this class, we’re learning how to use solver to find the best mix of products to maximize profit, how to use what-if analysis to determine if an event would be profitable with certain venue fees/attendance rates, etc. I can see actually using some of this stuff.

  154. tomatotomahto*

    Low stakes question here.

    Anyone have advice/similar experiences with a coworker wanting to steal your desk? I’m an early-twenties female working a non-admin, non-reception job. I have a coworker, recently promoted, maybe 5-10 years older, moving into my office. This office has been more or less vacant since I’ve been here – I was the first employee hired. There are two private offices occupied by my supervisor and another administrator. There’s a row of desks and I sit in the back, which I chose because I spend a lot of time on the phone and want to be able to turn away from others to talk. The other desks have been occupied by interns.

    Recently Promoted Coworker is moving in, who I like more or less, but something weird happened. Yesterday he invited me to lunch and after about 30 minutes of chatter said “So the reason I’ve brought you here today is…” and then proceeded to try about 15 different tactics to get me to let him have my back desk, from trying to get sympathy, to pulling rank, to saying I probably don’t even care where I sit, to bribing me with free lunches, to almost bullying. Basically, it came down to he didn’t want to be seen as a receptionist. Our office RARELY has visitors outside the org. and we don’t get calls from the mainline. If there are any inquiries, I always field them anyway. Usually, it’s just directions to another office. Also, apparently my supervisor (his new supervisor) told him he could “have his pick” and he kept trying to invoke that. I highly doubt she meant he could have MY desk, though. I didn’t outright say no, in case for some bizarre reason my supervisor DOES want me to move, but I also didn’t agree. I settled on revisiting the issue in a few months if it seriously becomes a problem for him but let him know I’d really rather not.

    I do not want to move! It’s a huge pain getting IT to transfer phone lines, I’m all set up here, and I can’t help but feel this would not be A Thing if I were a dude! Advice on pushing back when/if he doesn’t just drop it? I’m planning to confirm with my supervisor that she doesn’t expect me to give up my desk for Promoted Coworker – but we have a great relationship and I’m almost sure she doesn’t.

    1. Academic Libarian Department Head.*

      Keep it simple. The promoted guy has asked me to give up my desk. I am very happy with my placement in the office, here are the reasons this works for me. These are the reasons that my desk and its placement keep me productive and engaged in my work. There are other choices for promoted guy. As this would be disruptive to me and my work, would you inform him to make another choice.

      1. academic librarian*

        yes , there are words to use with your supervisor. Do not engage in any further conversation with promoted guy.

    2. sacados*

      Agreed with Academic Librarian, I would be highly tempted to just throw this guy under the bus.
      As you say, it’s likely that no one though by “take your pick” he would assume he’s entitled to a desk that someone else is already using. If you lay it all out, what he’s asking, under the guise of asserting your boundaries/asking for advice, I think it will be pretty clear how out of line he is and likely (hopefully) lead to a manager telling him to cut it out post-haste.

    3. Jamie*

      Other than confirming with your boss that she doesn’t want you to move, just keep saying no.

      If he keeps it up tell her he won’t let it go and then she should handle it. Not that you need validation, but he’s being really weird about this.

      Oh and because I’ve noticed here and irl that some younger people tend to be more focused on the ages of older employees, as if it gives us folks way on the other side of 25 some kind of leverage…it doesn’t. I work with people the ages of my kids, but they are my co-workers not my kids. If I out rank anyone it’s because of my position, not because I happened to be alive before KISS took off their make-up. :)

      1. ACDC*

        Jamie I think you can empathize why younger employees would mention potential age differences in scenarios like this. It is common for older employees to treat younger employees like children and try to pull rank because the younger employee typically has less clout to fight back. I think it’s great that you don’t do this, but that is not the standard for everyone who was alive before KISS took off their makeup.

      2. tomatotomahto*

        Jamie, thanks for the validation! I thought it was weird – but hey, I’m newish to the professional world and haven’t encountered this before.

        I brought up age actually just as context, just to say he’s been here longer and has more experience. We’re actually both “young” in our office, which skews more 40s-50s. Totally here what you’re saying though, and I did have to get over feeling that way with some coworkers!

    4. Catsaber*

      1. If he brings it up again, just say, “I’m happy with my desk, thanks!” and change subject. Don’t give him anything to argue with. If he brings up “but you said you’d think about it/revisit it/blah blah”, just go with the same response – “I’ve thought about it, I’m good here!” Repeat ad nauseaum.
      2. If he continues to push after a few rounds of the above, then be more serious and let him know you’re not giving up your desk. “I’m not giving up my desk. Is there something else you need?” or “Is there a reason you keep asking?”
      3. I would check in with your supervisor soon, let her know he was asking and confirm that she didn’t really mean ANY desk (I’m 99.9% sure she didn’t). Keep her in the loop about it, especially if he keeps pestering.

      Basic point – be brief, be firm!

    5. A Non E. Mouse*

      Other people have given you great advice, but I want to affirm for you that this is NOT a “low stakes” question!!

      Work environment is very, very important, and you’ve carved out space specifically conducive to your work.

      Do not sell yourself short by calling it low stakes, even in your own mind.

    6. AmethystMoon*

      Sometimes when people get promoted, their head swells up for a while. I’ve seen it happen before. Don’t take it up with with that co-worker, go to supervisor instead.

    7. tomatotomahto*

      Thanks, everyone, for your advice and validation! I spoke with my supervisor, who thought it was absolutely hilarious that he would even try that. She said I am not permitted to move under any circumstance :). I did ask her not to take it up with him – I do think it’s probably a lapse of judgment due to a swollen ego.

      If he continues to bring it up, I’ll take the advice here and just be cheery but brief. I can always ask my supervisor for help if needed.

    8. Anono-me*

      I’m so glad your supervisor supported you on this.

      I think it’s interesting that your newly promoted co-worker has no problem with you being in the position to be assumed the receptionist.

      I also think is a relatively younger woman in the workplace, it’s even more important for you to be seen as a peer in your profession.

      One more thing I would like you to consider. Your co-worker is older than you and has been with the company longer. He just got promoted to being your peer. You have seniority over him as a Level 2 ‘whatever the heck you do’ professional. Please keep that in mind the next time he asks goofy question like this.

  155. Third or Nothing!*

    So you know how I’ve been having trouble getting the clique in charge of ordering food to get me something dairy free? Earlier this week the company catered Jason’s Deli. I asked if we could include some wraps please. The woman, let’s call her Jane, rolled her eyes and slammed her hands on her desk exclaiming in a very miffed tone that the system doesn’t let you do that.

    I’m getting thoroughly annoyed at this point with the pattern of disrespect, so I reached out to our new VP who has been so helpful in the past. We had a frank conversation about bad attitudes around the office and how condescendingly some people are treated (as many of you probably suspect, I am far from the only one subject to their ire). The VP agreed with me that there are some…strong…personalities in the office and that it needs to be addressed (his words, not mine!).

    So we shall see what happens. And maybe one of these days I’ll gather up the guts to say something on the spot when I hear my coworkers being belittled.

    1. WellRed*

      Do you say anything to her in the moment? I am actually not all that confident the VP is going to be all that helpful beyond agreeing, otherwise he’d have taken care of it already.

      1. Third or Nothing!*

        I’ve done the withering stare a few times, the taken aback “wow” advocated often here, but no changes. The new VP has asked for my input before in improving company culture, so I’m hopeful that he’s taking the issue seriously.

        1. WellRed*

          Takes no input at all to ensure a food allergy is accommodated beyond, “accommodate this.” She’s a nightmare, though.

  156. Bee's Knees*

    TDLR: How do I accommodate larger sizes when ordering work shirts that don’t come in that size?

    Posted further upthread about the suck-fest that is my job lately, mostly to complain, but I do have a question. I’m in charge of finding tshirts for the plant, and they have to be camo, because of course they do. We also need sizes up to 6x. Do you know how many people make a 6x camo shirt that you can get in other sizes? Not a lot. It’s not like I can do like I did with solid colored tshirts, where they were a slightly different shade of navy, and you couldn’t really tell that the big big sizes were a different brand. Camo, it’s a little harder to do that when the pattern is completely different. I don’t want to leave anyone out of getting a shirt, because that’s not fair, but what do I do when I don’t know that I can make an accommodation?

    1. Jamie*

      Research as much as you can and lay out your options to your boss. Let her know you looked extensively and ask her how she wants you to proceed.

    2. sacados*

      If there’s no other way, I would just say go with the other large-size camo brand. It may very well be an obviously different pattern, but in the end you are ensuring that all workers can have a camo t-shirt.

    3. Just wondering*

      Find a vendor who will source for you. It’s their job to send you recommendations based on the manufacturers they work with. Of course, I am reading this as “I am ordering company logoed shirts for employees.”

    4. Kiwiii*

      I think the best case scenario is finding as many options as you can in the larger sizes and then looking for straight sizes, with pattern matching as one of the criteria you consider. There may be two that look similar enough that it’s a non-issue. If there’s just not any options in the right price ranges/quality, pull the 2 or 3 best options of each and let your boss pick.

    5. Lucette Kensack*

      I’m surprised that the companies that provide 6x shirts don’t also provide smaller sizes.

      Treating your larger colleagues equally is more important than having camo shirts. I would send a note to your boss and say: “I was unable to find camo shirts in our full range of sizes, so we will need to order black t-shirts instead.”

    6. Wren*

      Maybe order from 3 companies and mix up the other ones too? That way you have different patterns and it would be harder to tell that it was a size difference?

  157. Emily B.*

    So I’m 99% sure that the answer is “You’re overthinking this” but, regardless.
    Sometimes when I know someone’s on leave or traveling for work but I’ve seen that they’re responding to emails, I send emails with a little “[non-urgent]” tag at the beginning of the subject line. The idea is that this gives them permission to not even look at the email (to do their own triage), whereas otherwise they might look and then, having read it, decide that it would only take a few more minutes to respond…
    But does this come across as presumptuous? Might anyone see this tag and think, “Why does this person who started three months ago think I’d treat any email from them as urgent?”
    Like I said, I know I’m overthinking, but I’d appreciate thoughts anyway.

    1. Jamie*

      I think this is really considerate and I can’t imagine anyone who would think it’s presumptuous wouldn’t be awful on 100 other ways, too.

      I’d really appreciate this if it were me.

    2. Parenthetically*

      Oh, huh! I’m interested to hear other people’s thoughts on this! I’d definitely assume it meant “don’t worry about looking at this until you get back.” Maybe you could spell it out a bit more? Like say [not time sensitive, read at your convenience] or something?

      If you’re worried, can you just ask the folks you’re emailing frequently like this? “Hey, Craig, when you’re out of office, I find I’m frequently sending you things I don’t need an urgent response on. I’ve been marking those as non-urgent, but if there’s a way you’d prefer me to handle that, please let me know!” But honestly, I think the way you’re doing it is super considerate and totally fine.

    3. Kiwiii*

      I think you’re probably overthinking this. Though, if you feel uncomfortable or like the [non-urgent] might be misunderstood, perhaps you could otherwise word the subject line so that that’s clear without them looking at it?

    4. cmcinnyc*

      I do this, too. Sometimes I need to move something along but I’ll write a subject line like “Can Wait Until Monday.”

      And remember–an urgent email can come from *anyone.* It’s the content that makes something urgent, not the messenger. If your house is in flames and I call 911, they don’t ask me, “Well do you know Emily B? Why are you even talking about her house if you don’t know her?” IT’S ON FIRE, THAT’S WHY.

    5. Overeducated*

      I do this all the time. I work with people who tend to say “don’t worry I’ll be checking email in the evening/checking on my phone/etc if anything comes up while I’m traveling!” and usually the things I need to send them are not things they, or I, need to worry about at all, just things they need to stay in the loop on. I think you’re overthinking this :)

    6. LawBee*

      I would honestly prefer that you didn’t email ANYONE on leave, especially if it isn’t urgent. Traveling for work is different, it’s not vacation or leave, it’s work – and I think your tag is fine. But seriously, don’t email people on leave, even if they’re responding, and especially if it isn’t urgent. Let them be.

      As far as your concern about being seen as presumptuous, that is definitely over-thinking.

    7. tomatotomahto*

      I travel for work sometimes, and would be thinking “Emily B. is SO considerate!” Seriously, this would not read weird at all and your coworker probably appreciates it greatly.

    8. Eleanor Konik*

      Does your email software not have a “scheduled send” option? If you don’t think they need to look at it until X date, but want to get it out of your head, delayed delivery options are really useful.

  158. Dorcas*

    The HR Director at my company is retiring soon. I have been working with him the last four years, and he has been my mentor and advocate during this time. We support a pretty large part of the company that is comprised of all temps (5,000+). When he told me almost a year ago that he was retiring, he said that he was retiring because he felt I was ready to take over for him. The HR VP has also said she’d like for me take over for him when he retires. I work in HR but not in a manager role. I am a HR representative. I just assumed when they both have said (on multiple occasions over the last several months) that they’d like for me to “take over his role” that translated into taking over the HR Director role.

    My manager is the HR VP. She told me three weeks ago that she needed to inform the CEO of the HR Director’s retirement and get approval to fill the open role. An official offer has not been made up to this point. The HR VP keeps saying in meetings that I’ll be taking on extra leadership responsibilities. It has started to sound like I wasn’t going to be offered the Director role, so I asked the HR Director. He said that it wouldn’t be a Director position, but more than likely a manager’s position. I’m so confused. And I feel stupid that I thought it would the Director’s position because they kept saying “when you take over for Bob.”

    I feel like this whole situation has been bungled. Was I wrong to think I’d be offered the Director’s position? Should I be upset that this conversation has been going on for almost a year and there is no plan or offer? Am I being too sensitive?

    I appreciate your insights.

    1. Yuan Zai*

      I think your story is a good example of what happens when people are vague about their future plans and don’t communicate clearly. Don’t beat yourself up over this at all – just learn from it – but at the point you assumed you’d be taking over the HR Director role, you would’ve been better off asking them what “taking over his role” really meant to them. The Director and VP also shouldn’t have assumed you knew what they meant about taking over his role, either, though. “When the Director retires, we’d like you to take on his duties as a manager,” is what someone should have said to you, giving you the opportunity to clarify what they meant.

    2. Kiwiii*

      It may be that he understands his “role” differently than his “position”, though the way they have communicated that to you has been confusing if not downright misleading. I wonder if they don’t plan to have you take over certain, specific aspects of his job that aren’t necessarily director level?

      I think, honestly, that you should ask either your boss or the HR Director what they mean when they talk about you “taking over for Bob,” even if you frame it as wanting to plan for whatever they’re intending.

    3. ACDC*

      I agree with the other comments that you should have a conversation to clarify what they mean by “when you take over for Bob” so that the expectation is set across the board. I get your frustration by feeling misled, but I think it is a little unrealistic to think you would have jumped from representative to director, and jump over your current boss’s level.

    4. designbot*

      I’ve been in a situation with a lot of similarities—when I came on to my current job I was taking over for a director, but the title they offered me was Designer, not Director. They justified this because I don’t have as much experience as the former director, but were pretty clear that I was doing the exact same job. This has been a pain for the ENTIRE time I’ve been here, as people misunderstand my role constantly.
      I’d encourange you to be really clear with them about hey, you’d previously indicated that I’d be taking over Director’s job, but recently he said that I would not be the Director and this was a surprise to me. I want to clarify with you exactly what this means and what the expectations are. As you’re walking through this, think through what the title means in your organization—do Directors have meetings that Managers wouldn’t be invited to? What does the title communicate, to whom, and what might the shift communicate to them? Is the title a mere honorific to them vs. a description of the role, is it about salary banding, or does the difference in title come with a functional distinction?

      1. Dorcas*

        Thank you for your response. I have a feeling I’ll be in the same boat as you have been. The Director does attend meetings with other Directors, and I am not invited to those meetings. I totally get that. There are some Directors who won’t treat me (respect my opinion, education, time with the company, etc.) the same way and with the same respect they treat the Director. That’s annoying, but I can live through it. I appreciate your suggestion to be really clear with them about the role, responsibilities, and the title.

    5. Schnoodle HR*

      I get where you’re coming from, but going from an HR Rep to HR Director is a BIG leap. I would see them transitioning you to an HRM position, to then transition you to HRD later. The theory being you might not have the skills to go straight into HRD mode, but lots of potential to be groomed there. But not exactly “plug and play.” It’s unfair they made it seem it’d be HRD but as I was reading I already knew the ending…I was thinking “HR Rep to HRD? No, they’d go with HRM for a few years, develop the skills, etc then HRD.” And that’s exactly what’s happening from what I gather.

      It is vague communication on their part, absolutely but their thought process wasn’t out of line.

      1. Dorcas*

        I just feel like an idiot. I work in HR for Pete’s sake. I should know better. I essentially do the same job as the Director. However, the Director also handles full time employees in the department that we both support. I wouldn’t put it past my company though to do the “plug and play”. I am more than happy to be an HRM rather than HRD. I know I’m not ready for that type of responsibility. Thank you for your response!

    2. Ann O. Nimitee*

      I am expecting a job offer by early next week, and it was my birthday yesterday! What a hopeful way to start a new year! Congrats!

  160. cmcinnyc*

    I’m confused about severance. To be clear, I am not planning to leave my job anytime soon and I’m not fearful of being fired or laid off. Most of my work experience before this job was as a freelancer. I worked contract to contract or pitched projects, and I invoiced for that. When a job concluded, that was that. I worked for some companies/clients over and over, and others just once. When I started at my current job, it was an hourly position. I’m now in a salaried position. Occasionally I will hear of someone who left the job negotiating severance, both pay and continued insurance coverage. I am pretty sure that most people who leave do NOT get any kind of severance–they’re simply moving on to new jobs, or going back to school, or moving away. In what situations would a company typically negotiate a severance? All I can think of is layoffs. We had layoffs in 2008 with the crash and I don’t know if those people were offered severance or not. This is the kind of info I hear through the grapevine and it’s a bit hush hush and I honestly haven’t a clue but would like one! So… is severance a Thing in salary-land? In what circumstances? Do you have to ask/negotiate or does it come with certain territories? For obvious reasons I don’t really want to ask HR!

    1. designbot*

      It’s typically offered or negotiated if the company is the one terminating the relationship. If the employee is the one deciding they’ll leave, severance is not typically an option. The only exception I could think of is if it was pretty clear to both sides that the employee was being forced out. Think of it this way: whichever party ends things typically offers the other party some concession. When an employee chooses to leave, that’s their notice period. When the company asks them to leave, that’s severance. If you’re being asked to leave, they’ll often offer you severance but if not you can ask for it (after all, if they say no, what more do you have to lose?).

      1. De Minimis*

        The one time I’ve gotten severance I had it spelled out in my offer letter how it worked. I ended up being terminated, but still got severance in accordance with the offer letter. I’m guessing the reasoning was the same as above, the termination was initiated by the employer, and even though it was performance-related, they still paid out severance.

      2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        The only problem with that is: Severance is far from universal, whereas the expectation of two weeks’ notice is pretty much universal.

        Many people understandably feel that people should not expect them to give notice* when their employers are both legally and morally free to throw them out on the street with no notice at all.

        [*] I have seen a job application that asked, regarding each previous employer: “Did you give at least two weeks’ notice? And if not, why not?”

  161. Emily*

    Does anyone here know much about Schedule A/Disability hiring track for federal jobs?
    I’m just wondering if anyone who has gone through the process could give a general run-down?

  162. Rainbow Dash*

    How would you handle this? My husband got very sick last week and by the time I nagged him to go to see a doctor, he was extremely ill. To the point I had to leave work to take him. He was sent to the emergency room where he was diagnosis with cellulitis and hospitalized overnight. While there, they ran a MRSA test. They were waiting on the results when he was released. I get the phone call that it’s MRSA and the doctor wants him back at the hospital the next day. I leave work again to take him. He’s kept two days for treatment.

    I come back and the secretary had gotten my boss to authorize housekeeping to clean my office from top to bottom. Evidentially, the secretary had decided that either my husband picked his nose and rubbed it in a open cut or our dog had licked an open cut. Either way, I’m a potential carrier in her mind. My boss agrees to shut her up. Personally, I’m debating going to HR at this point. Am I over reacting or under reacting? This secretary has made remarks about my diet choices before (I’m diabetic) and my kids appearance when my husband brought them by work to take me out to lunch for my birthday- the one year old has a messy diaper and work had no changing table.

    1. New Job So Much Better*

      Neither of those conditions are contagious, right? That’s a little over-the-top I think.

      1. ACDC*

        MRSA is incredibly contagious. I personally don’t think it’s unreasonable to do a deep clean of your office given the nature of the infection you have been exposed to. I’m actually surprised you were back at work even after learning your husband had MRSA. I get why you’d take it personally, but I would expect a deep clean as a coworker in this situation.

        1. Dr. Anonymous*

          There’s no recommendation from the CDC that family members of patients diagnosed with MRSA take special precautions other than routine handwashing. MRSA testing is done routinely of patients IN HOSPITALS because it spreads easily there. But nobody checks the noses of healthcare workers for MRSA. Do you know why? Because WE ALL HAVE IT. Unless you’re in a hospital or clinic, wash your hands and move on with life.

          Now that being said, many people are afraid of MRSA and don’t know it’s all over the place, so it’s not necessarily mean-spirited that the secretary flipped out over it.

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      The secretary needs to stop harassing you, and I think it’s worth bringing to HR.

      Giving your office a once-over for potential MRSA might be a good thing to do for peace of mind (I am the sort of person who Clorox wipes my entire office every Friday, so you may disagree) but it’s my understanding that MRSA is pretty much everywhere in our environment and most of us don’t notice or catch it.

      https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/mrsa/symptoms-causes/syc-20375336

    3. designbot*

      I’m not too concerned about the office deep clean unless something in particular was disturbed. I am more concerned about her judgemental attitude towards you, and your boss’s willingness to be responsive to it in order to keep the peace. I’d probe gently on this with your boss if I was in your shoes.

    4. Spargle*

      MRSA is very contagious and pretty serious, and passed by person-to-person contact. I don’t think the secretary was overreacting at all. It’s not clear when you came back – was it the same day you dropped your husband off at the hospital for treatment? If so, I would view you as a carrier myself.

      This isn’t about the MRSA. This is about your professional relationship with this coworker which is clearly not great and sounds pretty hostile. “Evidentially, the secretary had decided that either my husband picked his nose and rubbed it in a open cut or our dog had licked an open cut. Either way, I’m a potential carrier in her mind. My boss agrees to shut her up. ” Ouch. I’d focus on getting that relationship to a professional level. You are a potential carrier because you drove your infected husband to the hospital, and it has nothing to do with your dog or a full diaper or her comments on your food choices. This is a good time to take the high road, thank her for having the office cleaned, and be Very Very Polite if you can manage it without being condescending or snarky. (Which can be hard when you really dislike someone.)

      1. anon24*

        Yeah MRSA is contagious and can live on surfaces for up to 2 months and is antibiotic resistant. Was it a little bit of an overreaction? Possibly, but not so much that I would blame her and I wouldn’t go to HR just over that. But it sounds like there’s way more going on.

        1. Rainbow Dash*

          The thing is the secretary doesn’t come in my office at all. Have you ever just dealt with a bitter person- no joy in their lives? I’ve worked here too long. My boss wants harmony and she uses that to rule the office.

          1. valentine*

            Ha!

            Kinda wished you’d changed that baby right on her desk. She’s insufferable. The nose/dog licking is weirdly specific. Apart from not sharing with her any more, do you think it would be useful to sit her down and address her pattern of inappropriate comments?

            1. Rainbow Dash*

              No, I don’t. I put in an application to a different department today. It’s not going to change. I need to change.

  163. I thought it only happened on AAM...*

    My friend’s company (large multinational, one of the top 10 in the industry) recently hosted a interdepartmental retreat. The attendees all received complimentary fleece jackets…color coded by gender. Purple for the women, navy for the men.

    2. That Girl from Quinn's House*

      One of the women on the team ordering stuff really, really, really wanted the purple fleece.

      One time I was at work, and we decided to get company logo shirts in teal for an event. We get to the event, and they are neon leaf green. The person in charge of ordering decided she liked the leaf green better, and the 65 or so people who had to wear the shirts just had to suck it up and deal.

      It is the most atrocious color I have ever seen in company logo swag.

      1. Catsaber*

        My division (IT) has given us two polo shirts, and we had a choice between three colors: white, cobalt blue, or EYEBALL-DESTROYING ORANGE. I work at a university, and our colors are cobalt and orange, but not this neon atrocity. Everyone else on my team except me got one in this orange, and sometimes they all end up wearing it at the same time. Team meetings on those days….I need sunglasses.

    3. Catsaber*

      Why!!! Why even deal with the logistical hassle of ordering a separate color!!!

      Although I suppose it’s possible that maybe the women’s sizes of that jacket did not come in navy. But…surely they all came in black or something like that? I’ve been through corporate clothing catalogs, there’s ALWAYS an option for black.

      1. Person from the Resume*

        That’s what I’m betting. Women’s style were ordered in a different color than the men’s style jacket. I don’t think that’s great and they probably should have gotten both in the same color. I do appreciate orders in women’s styles and sizes, though.

      2. Not a Real Giraffe*

        I came to say this. We offered fleeces at an executive retreat. The men’s version of the fleece had all these wonderful colors to choose from (we went with navy as it goes best with our logo) but the women’s version had white, pink, or black and that was it. I can’t remember if we ended up with the white or the black, but we definitely did not do pink.

  164. Coverage Associate*

    Just a vent. One of my bosses is nagging me about his process for saving copies 3-6 of emails. That is:
    send email (generating a copy in my sent folder and a copy in his email); then immediately…
    Consider whether the email needs further saving
    Send email to file clerk, copying boss (generating copies 3-5)
    File clerk saves email in a second server (copy 6)

      1. valentine*

        Jesus Hallelujah Christ.

        So you’re one of the Inbox trillion?

        Wait. Are you, in fact, at the Department of Redundant Redundancy Department of Redundant Redundancy?

  165. Chronic Overthinker*

    I just started a new job at a small but prestigious law firm. It is a type of law that I am not very familiar with but I am learning and adapting quickly (I think.) I have been the receptionist for just over two months and have enjoyed my role. I take phone calls well. I am on top of schedules (for the most part) and am always eager to take on new tasks. Plus, if I don’t know something, I try my best to figure it out or find the right person for the answer. Overall I feeling like I am fitting in.
    However, I have a disability that is not readily seen. I have been hard of hearing all of my life and wear aids to assist me. If someone mumbles or has a thick accent, I often ask them to repeat themselves. Usually I mask it by asking “how do you spell that?” or some other smooth way of verification. Most of the time, it is a relative non-issue, but occasionally I get an irritated caller having to repeat their name again. Or worse, have someone misunderstand me in person. Usually in that instance I chuckle and say “oh, I’m sorry, I’m a bit hard of hearing” and ask them to repeat. I get a response of “oh, I mumble too, so not a great combination.” It’s typically nervously laughed off, but I still want to build a good rapport with our clients as this is a relatively small firm and I want to assure my team that even though I am hard of hearing that I am the right individual for this job. Any advice for someone who is trying to be the best receptionist they can be without calling too much attention to their disability?

    1. Kiwiii*

      If you can, clue your boss in so that if anyone complains they know what’s up already, but otherwise I’d just keep doing what you’re doing. It seems like especially in person it’s not coming off poorly.

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        What I have been doing seems to be working well and have had no complaints on this subject (so far). Grandboss and his assistant seem still a little wary, though that may be for a different reason. (we got off on the wrong foot and am currently mending those relationships) But that’s a different story altogether.

        1. valentine*

          Being forthcoming and frank might be best long-term, as people remember to enunciate and anything else you need them to do. Clients should want to have a good relationship with you, too.

    2. Delta Delta*

      Lawyer here. If you are a good assistant, we (and here I speak for all lawyers) want you to keep working for us. If you have trouble hearing, I’d rather just know that and make sure you have the right accommodation – whether that’s configuration of your work space or different phone setup, or whatever.

      2. Chronic Overthinker*

        I have let co-workers know at the appropriate times when I have not heard them and what accommodations to make. I.E. When I am on the phone to wait for me to get off the phone or write down what they need/want. Or look at me the entire time they are speaking so I can read their lips. Everything that can be done is being done, mostly on an as-needed basis. The phones are good as I have a telephone switch, but cannot talk with someone in-person and on the phone at the same time. With the telephone switch, it completely mutes all background noise. It’s nice for working on the phone, but I cannot hear ANYTHING besides who is on the phone. I’ve thought about making a sign, but I don’t want to announce to the world that HEY, I AM HARD OF HEARING. I usually just let staff know ahead of time to either wait till I’m off the phone, send me an email, or write down what they need. It’s SOP for me. :)

        1. Chronic Overthinker*

          At this time I am no one’s “official” assistant, though I do calendar for a couple of attorneys on occasion. I mainly handle incoming phone calls, check in appointments, do mailings and order supplies. Leaves a fair amount of down time, but I always ask if I can help with anything. So far no major issues and I would love to be someone’s assistant someday, but for now, just a receptionist.

    3. Bibliovore*

      Blame the technology. If you do not wish disclose, no problem. You are doing everything right.
      I had trouble understanding, must be the connection, can you spell your name? Thank you, that was A_n_n S_m_i_th?

    4. Amethyst*

      I am HOH & have been all my life. I’m pretty open about it & will tell someone that I have “difficulty hearing” them. It’s also turned into a fun thing my coworkers tease me with–I’m not at all prickly about my disability, so they do all kinds of things, but it’s all in good fun. Most importantly, when they do tease me, it’s never cruel.

      Most of the time I’ll just say that “I can’t hear you” if they’re on the phone, or if they’re extremely hard for me to understand, I’ll see if I can have someone else talk to this person & see what they want. Having that backup makes a world of difference when it gets to that point. (I’m not sure if that’s an option for your firm, but it wouldn’t hurt to ask.)

      Don’t ever be afraid to ask for accommodations if you need it. When I started working where I do now (cubicle farm with all the desks facing cubicle walls) I bought a small $10 mirror to hang on my wall so I could see someone approaching from behind as I hated being scared multiple times/day because I can’t hear people approach. My boss will wave at me as she approaches so I’ll see her in my peripheral vision, & some coworkers shake the back of my chair if I don’t see ’em, lol. It’s all in what you need, & your coworkers will adjust.

      I’ve found being honest about what I need helps others be clearer in their speech, & they’re more patient than they otherwise would be. I used to hide my disability & all that did was give me grief. Employ a little humor, poke fun at yourself when you need to, & you’ll be just fine. :)

      1. Chronic Overthinker*

        Amethyst, thank you for your frankness. I too am very open regarding being HOH, but I absolutely hate teasing, even in jest. I was bullied throughout my grade school and high school years so I can get a bit defensive/bristly about it. Overall though, I manage.

        I wouldn’t be able to have back up, as I was hired to be the main receptionist and take lunch alone due to coverage issues. I do love the idea of a mirror or shaking my chair as many folks do come up behind me or just out of peripheral view and that would definitely help.

        Thanks for all the suggestions. I definitely need to learn to poke fun and realize that everyone is human and slightly flawed. :)

        1. Amethyst*

          You’re welcome. I’ve also been there with the bullying (it didn’t stop until 9th grade for me, & only because people were too busy dealing with high school & homework, etc.). Also, you might become a little more popular because of that mirror. My coworkers will sometimes use mine to check for food in their teeth or to futz with their hair or something throughout the day. :)

          The chair shaking grew organically–one part of my desk (behind my chair) has an overhanging wall, so my mirror would never be able to see anyone coming from that end. People who approached from that side started gently shaking my chair to announce their presence. Now it’s turned into good fun: Some will shake it as they walk by, which makes me see no one of course, then as I push backward, I’ll see the guilty party grinning waiting to be busted, lol. Trouble ensues from there, LOL.

          Others will wait for me to pop in a hearing aid then mouth a question. When I glower (with a half smile) at them they crack up, & then they’ll actually use their voice. LOL. This doesn’t happen often though.

          Who answers the phone while you’re on lunch? Can you ask them if they’d mind being point person on the occasions you have someone you can’t understand on the phone? After 4-5 attempts, I make it a personal rule to put them on hold, ask someone else to handle this person, & transfer the call to them. Is that possible for you? You can say you don’t anticipate it being an issue, except for people who mumble/have heavy accents/whatever else you have issues understanding here & could probably be at most 5x/month. Any reasonable person shouldn’t mind helping you out in those cases.

          Ways I poke fun at myself: In cases where I’ve misheard someone, I’ll tell them what I thought I heard after they repeat themselves. It usually garners a bunch of laughs. Other times, I’ll say something like “My ears don’t work/are broken, remember?” when my coworkers slip & forget I can’t actually hear well. Or I’ll ask if their question is one “Do I need to pop a hearing aid back in or is this a non-aid question?” & go from there, lol. Sometimes I’ll tell ’em they lied on their answer, especially if I’d been told I didn’t need my hearing aids in for it…& the conversation segued into one where hearing aids were necessary, lol.

          Again, it’s all up to you & what you’d like to do/how you’d like to handle it. I hope this helps! :)

  166. That Girl from Quinn's House*

    I have been puzzling over this awhile and wanted to get everyone’s thoughts.

    Allison says to build your resume on accomplishments, not duties. But a lot of the employers in my city aggressively use applicant tracking systems that flag by keywords, where if you don’t have certain keywords, which are often lifted from the job description, on your resume, or your resume will be thrown out and never read by a human.

    Additionally, a lot of them have screener questions like “desired salary” where if you refuse to answer, you get filtered out when the hiring manager selects only the candidates in a certain salary range.

    How do you reconcile these two different hiring tactics to your advantage?

    1. Kiwiii*

      I’ve totally dealt with the first example before. It helps sometimes if you can detail that you did specifically the thing they’re asking for AND THEN accomplished X. It makes the resume a little more wordy, but communicates really well anyway. For the screening question, could you say something (after careful research on your part), like “I’m pretty flexible and/or would need to reassess after learning more about the position, but I’m ideally looking for a range of $XXk-$XX+5k?” I mean, if they screen you out for asking too much, that’s a good thing, right?

      1. That Girl from Quinn's House*

        The screening questions I’ve run into are on a form. If you answer the question outside of the accepted parameters, your resume is not forwarded to the hiring manager. So if I say I’d like to be paid, say, $45,000 a year, and they have the salary range for the job set as $30,000-44,999, my resume wouldn’t get through to the hiring manager.

        I only found this out because I applied for a job that I had an internal referral for, and when it came time to do interviews, they couldn’t find my resume because they had never received it.

        1. zora*

          I mean, is the salary thing necessarily bad? If I need $45, I’m not willing to take the job for $44. I guess you just need to decide the absolute bottom number you would be able to take and put that in the box. But then be super prepared to make a case for the salary you want in the offer stages.

  167. Argh!*

    I just read Brené Brown’s “Dare to Lead.” It explained my boss perfectly, and not in a good way.

    I’m so glad it’s Friday. It’s not like I don’t get daily confirmation that my boss sucks one way or another, but to see it in black and white makes it all seem so hopeless. How can a fear-based organization decide not to be fear-based when all the top “talent” got where they are by showing deferential fearfulness in lower levels?

  168. Nelalvai*

    Any advice for keeping information sorted? it’s not an issue of building habits, I just don’t know what to DO with anything. I deal with a lot of projects that go dormant for weeks or even months and then come back to me. The dormant projects pile up all over, or clog up my email inbox. It gets even funner when pieces of the project are digital and other pieces aren’t.

    1. Coverage Associate*

      My boss keeps a 1” binder with the key facts and documents for each project. That way, if someone calls on a project he hasn’t worked on in a while, he can get up to speed again super fast.

    2. Rick Tq*

      Folders in email, folders in your computer file system organized by what works. We use customer/year/project ID on our main file server, I use customer/project on my local stuff.

      Document, document, document then file the info where you can find it later. I’ve started recording conference call notes in the actual meeting event in Outlook so they can be found later. I also scan any hardcopy I get to file the same way.

    3. snack_attack*

      I was using Monday.com as a project organizer, which was nice because you could set up projects and have task bullet points, and from there you could add notes. It was nice that after I finished a call or task I could create a new note with the date and any relevant info, like what I completed, who I talked to, what I am waiting on for next step, etc. Outside of that, I would put an “event” on my calendar some time period out to circle back on anything that I was waiting on someone else to complete. For example, if I had to ask someone from outside the company for a critical piece of data to be delivered to me, I would ask the estimated time I would receive it then place an “event” to remind myself to check back in with that person if I hadn’t received what I needed (i.e. if the person said I would get it back before the end of next week, I would put an event a week out so I wouldn’t forget about the project).

  169. VV007*

    Did I make myself look immature/weak? I am an avid animal-lover and a big ol’ softie. My dog accidentally injured a wild rabbit this morning (trying to play with it) and I had to bring it in to be mercifully put down. I cried a lot during this process because when it comes to animals I am a baby. I had informed my boss that I was going to be late this morning and when I got in, it was pretty clear that I had been crying. I didn’t want to make a vague excuse on why I was late because we are all pretty friendly in my office and I was worried that if I said something vague people would assume something had happened to either my husband, dogs, or extended family. Now, I’m worried that because it was fairly obvious that I had been crying and they know it was over a wild rabbit, it might give the impression that I’m immature or weak. I have been here for 4 years and am significantly younger than my co-workers (but not young!)

    P.S. I have a call in to a trainer to help us train the dog out of chasing rabbits so please no comments about that.

    1. Adlib*

      Oof. That probably would have been my reaction in your situation. That’s rough. You are definitely not a baby! I don’t think you look weak. If you have a good relationship with your boss/coworkers, share what you feel like sharing, but otherwise, just get on with your day.

      (Good luck with your dog! Stuff just happens sometimes.)

    2. Donkey Hotey*

      I’m 48 and I was an absolute wreck when one of our guinea pigs passed a few years ago. I received zero indication from anyone that they thought it made me look weak, and if they did, they kept it to themselves. Had they been more vocal about it, I would have corrected them at volume, with vigor.

    3. Catsaber*

      I don’t think so! However I’m a big animal lover, and am the unofficial biologist of my department – people keep bringing me photos of weird animals they found in their yard/house and I will research it, and then exuberantly give them more information about that animal than they ever wanted to know.

      You were in a stressful situation and emotions were running high. It’s normal to have this type of reaction. It’s not immature or weak. And it certainly won’t make you look that way if you behave professionally the rest of the time.

      What *does* make someone look immature/weak is the following:
      – using baby talk in the office, as an adult
      – constant complaining and never doing anything about it
      – constant talk about shirking your responsibilities

    4. Kiwiii*

      Crying once in 4 years isn’t going to make you look weak, but also like. Weakness isn’t the worst thing ever, either.

      1. VV007*

        You’re right weakness isn’t the worst thing to be. I guess I’d rather be seen as weak for being upset by the situation then be seen as someone who doesn’t care at all.

    5. merp*

      Just another voice chiming in to say I don’t think this is weak or immature at all! I would absolutely have the same reaction. A possum jumped out in front of my car once and I couldn’t avoid it, and I cried the whole way home.

    6. LGC*

      You’re overthinking this, in my opinion!

      Unless your workplace is THAT dysfunctional where any display of emotions at any time in your employment marks you as weak, in which case you need to get out of that job and possibly the field entirely. But in a typical workplace, you crying once over having to put down a rabbit would be fine – in fact, I’d be more worried if you DIDN’T feel something.

  170. Going anonymous for this one 2019*

    My company has a big project in the works and I’ve never been so happy to have been passed over. It’s f-bomb chaos. High profile international project but management turn over and no specific project manager assigned. No marketing spec available, and regulatory set its deadline before engineering is complete. Let alone testing.
    Early this week, I overheard someone telling someone in another division in another country that no, Mr.Big wasn’t joking when he moved up their deadline to end of September from beginning of December. He’d done the same thing to her group too.
    Forget “Miller Time”, this is “resume time.”

  171. Adlib*

    Just coming to say that after just over 3 months of working in an open office for the first time in my career, I HATE IT. We have focus rooms that can be reserved occasionally, but wow, why is this a thing? (I’m in an AE firm which I think is where this ridiculousness started, but still.) I’ve worked in semi-open environments, but that was a long time ago and we still had a sort of cubicle thing going on.

    I give it a year before I move on because the commute sucks too.

    1. designbot*

      It started in real estate, so that we could cram more workers into fewer square feet, thus letting the client rent/buy fewer square feet and pay to build out fewer square feet, thus reducing construction budgets, thus reducing our fees… yeah, it screws us all the way around.

    2. MissDisplaced*

      My company just moved into open office and we don’t even have assigned desks in my department.
      It’s ridiculous because it takes a good 15 minutes to plug in and adjust everything each morning.
      So much for productivity!

      The vibe is terrible too.

      1. MonkeyInTheMiddle*

        We have open office format. About 20% of people choose to work elsewhere in the building because of it (vibe of office area, quiet, ability to focus)

  172. NewBoss2016*

    Late to the party today, but I just had throw it out there that I have had the weirdest week as a “hiring manager” for my department. A new hire who should have started Monday had 3 separate medical emergencies this week, and still hasn’t come to work. Another new hire who should have started yesterday (that I was highly impressed with) just “ghosted” and didn’t show up. Then today, another candidate ghosted on their interview. That in itself isn’t the strangest thing, just the combination this week.

  173. KristinaL*

    I’ve been thinking about self-publishing the children’s books I’ve been writing and illustrating. Part of my motivation is that I want this to be a side gig, not a main job. I’ve got a job (working with computers). Any advice for marketing the books?

    1. Bibliovore*

      The question is “side gig” Most children’s book writers and illustrators are not full-time at this pursuit. They are teachers, artists who also create children’s books. Marketing books is a profession in itself. It may be helpful to join and participate in your local Society of Children’s Book Writers and Illustrators to get an idea of what you need to know.

    2. fposte*

      Agreeing with Bibliovore that SCBWI is a must. I’d also say that I’d consider approaching it as a hobby rather than as a “side gig”–it’s not likely to make you much if any money, especially after costs if you pay for marketing or editing (which could be wise).

      There’s an interesting survey of self-published children’s authors I’ll include in followup that might help clarify your goals and plans. It’s not claiming to be scientific, but there’s some thought-provoking information.

  174. Fisharenotfriends*

    How does everyone’s in-office happy hour work? My company wants me to start implementing one along with the other events, and I’m happy to since we do out of office happy hours all the time. It’s an industry standard for our industry and location but the executive team is worried about the timing as people all leave at different times.

    1. Kiwiii*

      Ours usually happens around 4PM and we let people know the week before. If someone wants to stay late (say they’re usually a 7 to 3:30 person) they can then plan to do that.

    2. zora*

      I would ask around about the timing, then. Do a short survey on what times would work best for people and which nights of the week, and see what works for the biggest number of people. I ended up finding out that my team prefers Wed nights to Thurs/Fri, for example, because they are all cool people who usually have plans on Thursday nights.

      And then if you have any crazy outliers, maybe try to accommodate them a couple of times a year? Like “We’re going to start at 3 this month so Tangerina and Eustace can join” . I’ve found people don’t mind doing that once in a while if it means others can be included.

      We call ours a “Wine Down” and open some bottles and put out snacks around 3:30, since we have people who like to leave at 4:30. And we do it in the kitchen area, so some people bring their computers and finish up work while having a glass. So, it’s kind of casual, and everyone understands if someone has to miss it bc they are on deadline.

      1. zora*

        oh, and I agree with Kiwii about making sure it’s on calendars a week or two ahead of time. Some people might be willing to adjust their scheudle that week in order to join.

    3. Filosofickle*

      At a former ad agency, we had 4-5:30p “happy hour”. Each department rotated hosting and planning and was given a budget. They were…ok. The real issue is no one wanted to down a drink and then hop in the car. (Most people had to go through a mountain pass, so even more problematic.) We had the most positive feedback from the theme / food-oriented ones. The ice cream social was a big hit.

      Another ad agency I worked in had a “bar cart” around 3p or so on Fridays. If you were still working you could stay at your desk and the party would come to you, or hang out in the chill zone with others.

      I like the idea of mid-week! Fridays were always tricky because many were scrambling to finish work and get home. (For whatever reason, agency #2 always had lots of Friday EOD deadlines.) Mid-week would feel more leisurely, and more special. Depends on the office.

    4. Gatomon*

      Ours is 4:30 – 6:30 on Thursdays. I’d say most people are 8 – 5 but those who are salaried or get off at 4:30 start things off. Just make sure you have enough drinks and food for the people who can’t get there right away.

  175. Kiwiii*

    Our new client officially signed their contract, which means we’re sending a team in early October to meet, orient, and give them a timeline for development. I’ve asked in previous conversations to come with (it’ll be my manager, our sister team’s manager, and either me or one of my three more senior coworkers) as they’ll need a dedicated Analyst and I love travelling, but I’m not betting on them asking me since Last time they gave a new client to a new employee it went medium at best. I’m a little bummed, honestly, but I also don’t have it confirmed that they’ve asked anyone else yet.

    However, on the bright side, this means I’ll likely finally get a proper Assignment (I’ve been here 5 weeks so I’ve been helping on the launch of another client and been picking up odd tickets here and there, but don’t have a client to myself yet)! I’m really excited to start contributing at a higher level and be folded the rest of the way into the team.

  176. WorkerBee*

    I’m starting an office that will be open on weekdays, and I’m going to be booking interviews to find a receptionist.
    This is a very small office – there will be 7-10 people working altogether, so I don’t have human resources.
    It’s my first time hiring and I’m finding that there is a lot to learn about this whole process – eek!
    At my current job, it basically won’t be possible for me to book days off during most days of the working week.
    Is it reasonable for me to schedule interviews during the evenings, or on Saturday or Sunday?
    It would mean that the candidates would not need to take time off of work, but I don’t want to give the impression that weekend work would be expected as part of the job (it isn’t)
    Thanks!

    1. Kiwiii*

      I think it’s plenty reasonable, especially if you explicitly let them know the operating hours for the position. I haven’t had an afterhours interview before, but I know plenty of people who have. Keep in mind that people have other commitments outside of work and be really flexible when proposing times so that you find interview times that work best for both you and the interviewee.

      1. Aurion*

        So few places have after-hour interviews available, so I commend you for it! Sure, it won’t work for all candidates, but zipping off during business hours on short notice makes for hardship at work too, so if you keep after-hours as an option and offer a few possibilities, I think your candidates will be grateful.

        The applicant could keep their job search completely discreet; that’s a pretty huge advantage.

  177. fhqwhgads*

    How do you know who to ask for help?

    At the moment I’m feeling super burnt out at work. I’m exhausted. I’m annoyed. I’m a million things and trying to figure out what to do next. But, dear commentariat, I am not asking y’all for help with what to do next right now. What I’m really stumped about at the moment is: how do you know who you should ask for help? I’m in a swirling vortex of misery work-wise right now, but I think what would help most is to just talk things through with someone. What’s stopping me is I can’t figure out if what I need is to talk with a close friend, or a partner, or a mentor, or a therapist. Possibly I need to talk to all four but about different aspects it. But I’m feeling so stuck and so stumped and I don’t want to be a weird boundary crosser where if I talk to a friend they end up thinking “you need to talk to someone who knows your industry, not me” but I don’t want to talk to a mentor and have them thinking “you should be talking to someone near and dear to you, not me” etc, rinse, repeat, endless loop of doom. I also know I’m in a place where I’m so upset even if I normally know what’s what, I probably don’t right now.

    So, give me some easy to digest ways to draw the lines?

    1. Eukomos*

      I would start with a friend or partner, they can give you perspective on how to handle this. Talking to them may well make you realize you need to go talk to a mentor next, but that means you got some useful progress out of talking to the friend, and I can’t imagine a friend would find such a conversation boundary crossing unless you work in like, top secret intelligence or the sex industry or something.

    2. CM*

      It sounds like you maybe need to sort out your feelings as step one and then figure out what that means for your “What’s next?” at work as step two.

      For step one, I’d either go with friends and partners or a therapist, because mentor’s aren’t always great at feelings talks. The advantage friends and partners have is that they care about you and they’re free. The advantage therapists have is that they know a lot about psychology, and they generally know how to help you figure stuff out without making you feel worse. It’s a personal judgement call about who you’re more comfortable talking to about whatever this particular problem is, but, if the reason you’re hesitating to talk to your friends is that you think they’re going to judge you, reject you, or make you feel worse, a therapist might be the way to go.

      (If cost is a barrier, your employer might have an employee assistance program, or you might be able to find sliding scale services in your area). (Also, there have been times in my life when I didn’t have a lot of friends and really needed to talk to someone, and paying a therapist to listen is a totally legitimate option in those cases. You don’t need to have a mental health problem to go).

      For step two, once you know how you feel and what you want, a mentor might be able to give you advice about how to go about getting it.

    3. Quandong*

      My advice is to go and talk with a counsellor or therapist for support.

      This is based on my experiences as a person who was on both sides – as the listener, and as the person who needed to talk with somebody.

      I found it was far, far less stressful for me to speak with a counsellor or psychologist about my stuff, than to keep talking with friends.

      Personally, I worried about how much I leaned on my friends (regardless of how good they were at setting boundaries), and it contributed to my stress when I tried to keep track of how much I talked about The Stuff. I didn’t want our friendship to unbalanced or to revolve around my problems. Taking my issues to a professional was also easier in that I trusted the counsellor would tell me whether a professional mentor would be the best person to address a specific concern.

      I hope this is useful as you decide how to go forward.

      1. Quandong*

        P.S. What really stands out to me in your post is that you feel so upset, and stuck, and at a loss for how to proceed. These would be signals for me to see a mental health professional.

    4. Una*

      I have to give my friends a biology and physics lesson before they even understand what I do. :) I still talk about work with them! Sometimes it’s helpful to get a perspective from someone outside your work bubble (for example, it’s hard to recognize a toxic work environment from the inside). Sometimes they just don’t get it, but that’s still helpful for figuring out that what things really are things you need to discuss with someone from your industry. Either way, it sounds like it would just be helpful to unburden yourself first. Get the emotional stuff out with a trusted friend or partner first, then think about whether you need to talk to a therapist or a work mentor.

  178. FrogFree*

    How would you list a job on a resume with sequential, but not continuous employment? At my current job, I did two stints of short term work before they found me a permanent position. The job description was the same for all of them, so I definitely want it to be one entry.

    Written all out, it’s like this:
    November 2017 – Present (permanent)
    June 2017- November 2017 (contract)
    November 2016 – March 2017 (contract)

    But that takes up a lot of room! For simplicity’s sake, I’m considering combining them all into “November 2016 – Present”. But there is a 3 month gap in there, so it doesn’t feel entirely honest. And I’m a little concerned there could be an issue if anyone tries to verify my employment, because I’m pretty sure our HR records list me as having “really” started in Nov. 2017. Then again, when I review candidate resumes, I’m really just skimming the date to see how many total years of professional experience they have, and if they’re job hoppers. Any thoughts?

    1. CM*

      I would probably do what you’ve suggested and treat it as continuous employment from 2016. There are only three months missing in three years, which is a pretty small portion of the whole.

      If someone wanted to verify all the dates during a reference check or something, I guess they’d uncover that you had three contracts but I don’t think that would make a reasonable person see the date range you listed as dishonest. If you were super worried, you could explain during the interview that it was three contracts, so it wouldn’t be a surprise to anyone later, but I don’t think it will matter.

    2. Two Dog Night*

      I’m in the same boat, and I do something like:
      November 2016 – present (contract prior to November 2017)

      (I can’t remember the exact wording, but that’s the gist.)

      And I wouldn’t worry about the 3-month gap; the fact that they brought you back and made you an employee will make that a non-issue.

    3. Buu*

      If they asked you to apply/were offered the perm job off the back of your contract work I’d consider you bullet point any info or skills on there I’d list it as an achievement. e.g my resume has

      Teapot wrangler
      November 2017 – Present (permanent)
      (list of major products shipped)
      * Responsible for teapot wrangling on a day to day basis.
      * Did X or project Y
      * Won X award

      I’d then put it in the bullet points. “Initially completed two contracts before being invited to the company full time”

  179. Bloopmaster*

    I got confirmation this week that new job (where I don’t yet qualify for FMLA) is still going to let me take 12 weeks off when I have a baby this winter. Very very relieved. Obviously, paid leave would have been worlds better than the unpaid leave I’m getting, but considering I’m in the U.S. I’m pretty gratefully they’re letting me take the time unpaid.

    1. MatKnifeNinja*

      I hate to applaud such skimpy so called benefits, but my friend was only given a month for her vaginal birth. She has no benefits, and no FMLA.

      Her boss considers kids a life style choice. Hence, you make the magic work on your own. UGH!

  181. littlelizard*

    I was fired, then un-fired during my first week on my current job (I was “fired” for all of a few hours). If I’m asked if I’ve ever been fired in the future, what do I say?

    1. Rexasaurus Tea*

      Probably depends on what sort of paperwork was filed around it, but I think you’re okay not even mentioning it. Depending on the circumstances that led to the firing/un-firing, you could possibly even spin it as an error on the part of your manager/supervisor/HR department.

    2. LGC*

      If I’m asked if I’ve ever been fired in the future, what do I say?

      That your current job is bonkers. Because they are.

      Okay, to be honest, I wouldn’t mention it. I think employers are looking for if you’ve been terminated from a place and flagged as ineligible for rehire, right? (That’s another question I’d have, but I’m unsure if you’d be able to confirm it – when you leave, are you going to be flagged as ineligible for rehire?)

    4. NoLongerYoung*

      Check with someone on here or otherwise HR. If you filled out no paperwork, and it was in the same day, I would not mention it. I was “laid off” for 3 hours in (a previous decade) by my immediate manager, only to have the higher up rescind it the minute they got back to the office near the end of the day… and realized the overall ramifications.
      Since no paperwork was signed or went to the unemployment agency, etc, I just omitted it (I was there another 6 months, but with a different manager since she was deemed too “new” to be on her learning curve with me… there was some jealousy – which I didn’t care about,but she did).
      It never showed up in any official background screening and my resume said “dates x through Y.”

  182. Ain't nobody got time for that*

    Help – I’m without an office!! When you don’t have any office walls, you’re open to everyone, and you’re in the front entrance?

    I’ve recently moved to my 3rd desk since joining this organization a year ago. I’ve moved from an office with two windows to a door, to an office with a window and door to my current digs: front waiting/entrance area. My back is to the door so I have to turn around every time someone walks in and when I face the wall to use my computer, people coming from the back offices often acknowledge me on their way out. There’s a chair right next to my desk, as I’m facing the wall to work and people plop themselves there and hold a conversation.

    Our ED reduced our office footprint, giving up 3 offices. Everyone has shifted and I feel like the little bear who, when everyone rolled over, I fell out.

    Normally this would be where our Office Manager would sit, but she retired two months ago. On Thursday I was interrupted 7 times and I can hear the guy, in the next office, talk on the phone as he does so LOUDLY.

    Any way to minimize interruptions? Is it rude to wear headphones? Should I, when I know I have a major project,, suggest that I work from home? Should we all take turns to answer the door – there’s 6 of us but since I’m closer I have to do it.

    1. MsMaryMary*

      Love your user name.

      Could you put up a partition between you and the door? It may help somewhat and funnel visitors towards the receptionist (if you have one).

      I do not think headphones are rude, but this is a know your office thing. Our CEO thought people were taking dictation when we wore headphones and was sincerely confused about it. I would lobby for white noise for the entire office. If the infrastructure is in place for musak or office-wide announcements, you should be able to pipe in something to dampen the noise.

    2. CM*

      If there are six of you, I think it’s okay to have a conversation with everyone where you just explain that you need to have an imaginary cone of privacy around you because it’s awkward to be in the entrance area. Figure out what you want people to do when they approach you and ask them to do that. Explain that it’s cool to walk past without saying hi if you don’t want people to feel they need to do that (or would prefer them to stop). I second the suggestion to get partitions or something to physically break up the space a little if you can. Also maybe talk to whoever’s in charge of IT about whether there’s another way you can arrange your workspace so that you’re facing whichever direction you want to face.

      I’m more ooked-out at the part where answering the door has become your job. Is that something that makes sense given your other job duties? How did you guys decide who was going to answer the door before?

      If it doesn’t make sense for answering the door to be part of your job (if you don’t work in admin or reception or anything), then I think that’s another thing to discuss with people. Don’t just assume that it has to be you because you’re physically closest to the door — tell them you don’t want it to default to being you and come up with another arrangement.

      In general, my advice is to remember that you’ve been HUGELY inconvenienced by being moved to the entryway, so you don’t need to shrink from asking for an arrangement that slightly inconveniences them. They might balk at buying you an extension cord and little plastic thing to stop people from stepping on it, or a partition or whatever… but that’s kind of the least they can do after putting you in the hall.

      1. Ain't nobody got time for that*

        Thank you for your response.

        Our office admin retired in August and I had a specific short-term agreement that I would do some of her tasks until they hired someone, but they’ve chosen not to hire another person. Instead they hired a 1x admin who sits at a workstation created from a storage room. I work in programs and development so answering the door is not specific to my job.

        I could opt to work in the storage room – turned – desk that’s being used by our 1x week admin and CPA (two people two different days) and make them work upfront. But then someone still has to answer the door… Dilemmas that remind me this could have been resolved 8-mos ago when our new ED arrived and the admin stated, unequivocally, she was retiring. But the ED didn’t make plans the manage the transition.

        As a group we have not specifically discussed that the inherent responsibility of the person sitting in that space is to answer the door, manage guests and deliveries, etc. And that needs to be done now that I’ve worked in the new space for a week. This is a new move and specifics aren’t flushed out yet.

        I’m researching floor partitions on Wayfair :)

  183. Steve*

    I read this in another advice column:
    “i’ve been dating my partner for more than three years. i work in a pretty sensitive field where splitting up with your spouse would end your career (not guessing at this, it’s very clear), and she recently told me i might need to be ready to change jobs after we get married because she is afraid we might get divorced someday and that would cost me my job.”
    I’m curious if anyone knows of any field(s) where that is true – getting divorced would inescapably end your career forever?

    1. MsMaryMary*

      Maybe in certain faith-based professions? I could see where being a divorced minister or a divorced principal of a religious school could be a problem.

    2. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

      Wow what? Maybe just any job in a conservative city? Also, I notice most politicians tend to be married/belong to nuclear families. Maybe a political career?

    3. LGC*

      Probably a field that relies heavily on the LW appearing to be morally upright, or a field that directly trades on his/her being married. My first two thoughts were that LW might be clergy or a politician, but a third option could be that LW is a content creator/influencer whose career is based on their marriage/being married.

  184. Eukomos*

    Question, are business cards still a thing? I have an important networking conference to go to this fall and my coworker thinks I should get business cards to bring, but he also gets a lot of career advice from his dad who’s a bit old-fashioned. Do you guys think cards would be helpful? I’m really hoping to get a lead on a job at this conference.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      They’re still a thing, especially in sales. It’s pretty standard in networking around here to exchange cards. They’re easier to keep these days with scanning programs too, so we don’t have the stupid flipbooks/roladexes to file them.

      They’re also super cheap on places in Vista Print to get a huge amount that will last you until you die if you’re not doing a lot of conferences or sales calls, etc!

      1. Eukomos*

        Thanks! Guess I’ll get some made then. I’ll check out this Vista Print thing, and maybe rewatch American Psycho.

    2. Filosofickle*

      They are in my experience. They aren’t strictly necessary, but they serve lots of uses at networking events and I find they are generally expected. First, they are so handy for closing and exiting a conversation gracefully. Don’t underestimate the value of a quick exit line: “Oh, I see someone I need to say hello to. Great talking to you, here’s my card, let’s connect on LinkedIn” and then you glide away. Second, some people will ask for them and without one you seem unprepared — honestly, if ONE person asks for your card it’s worthwhile. At some conferences, I’ve even seen a “leave a card” kind of musical chairs, where they are just shared en masse. Most people will toss them after they enter your info or look up your profile, but it’s the mechanism that gets you there.

      If you think it will function more like a career fair where you’ll be collecting info and not giving yours, then maybe it’s not necessary. But they’re so cheap! I order mine from a local green printer, and it takes 3 days + shipping and about $25. And there are ones that are much cheaper than that. It’s a very small investment. If you get there and sense they are not needed or wanted, just keep them in your pocket.

    3. MsMaryMary*

      They are. Even for tech savvy people there doesn’t seem to be a great way to exchange contact info. And for the non tech savvy, I still know people who have a rolodex.

    4. CM*

      They’re still a thing, but they can be way more cool than they used to be. You can get plastic cards, oversized cards, really interesting designs and finishes. Someone tried to sell me on scratch & sniff once. I maybe wouldn’t do that one, but you can have fun with it. And people do exchange them at conferences and networking events.

      (I’m pretty sure you can also get them printed with a QR code or something so people can scan you into their email if they’re so inclined.)

  185. Anon for this*

    Running a gut check around whether or not my feelings around this are justified. I might just be salty because I’ve been trying to enter this field since graduating from a Master’s program in the same subject area, but haven’t been able to. There are also general complaints about lack of diversity in this field.

    Basically, I found out recently that there is a fellowship organization in this field. I originally found out because they were holding a workshop (which I found out through my alumni listserv), and decided to attend. At the workshop, they announced that applications were open for fellowship positions. Intrigued, I went home and checked their website.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t fellowships typically grants/scholarships/some sort of subisidy GIVEN to the fellow to carry out some sort of research or something?

    Well, this particular program costs tuition of around $1000 to attend a series of workshops over the course of a year and make connections with people in the field. From what I’ve heard and from seeing the backgrounds of previous fellows, it DOES seem like the fellowship program pays off in terms of networking and getting jobs in the field. But…isn’t this sort of elitist? It seems to me like some sort of industry-specific country club that further excludes people from the field.

    To add to my annoyance, I contacted 2 people from the organization with questions about the fellowship that were not covered on the website, and both e-mails went completely ignored.

    1. tamarack and fireweed*

      Yup. That’s how you keep a field non-diverse. (My sympathies! Maybe there’s another entry path?)

    2. CM*

      Yeah, that sounds messed up. You’re right that fellowships are typically about giving funding to the fellow. This sounds more like joining a professional network/guild but the fees I’ve seen for those (at least in my field) are more like $100-$200. Unless you have an MBA or something, this sounds crazily expensive.

  186. MsMaryMary*

    I know this is super late, but I just need to vent. I have the offer letter for a new job in hand (well, in a PDF in my email) but I don’t want to put in my notice until my background check is complete. I’m not worried about anything, but there’s always the chance someone stole my identity and is off committing crimes. The background check is being done by an outside company and they say it will take 4-14 BUSINESS DAYS to complete. I am slowly going insane knowing I am this close to moving on but I can’t do it yet.

    1. The Man, Becky Lynch*

      I only recently ran into a thing where a background check company took longer than the “immediate” response from previous services. O-M-G it stinks on the other side too but certainly not as much as the person waiting for an offer to solidify!

      It’s sick because it’s not about stolen identity in the end, it’s about some messy ass recordkeeping out there, where some other person’s nonsense got tagged with your SSN for something possibly as dumb as you having similar names or the same name if it’s a common one. It’s grosssssss, I have a Michael Smith in my life and they got popped with offender status in another random state and yeah no, that wasn’t him he’s never been anywhere near that state! Background checks are a beast and I hate them for you and me and the rest of the GD world.

      I hope yours comes back ASAP and it doens’t drag out that ugly 14 days.

    2. Filosofickle*

      Oh, I had that happen once. Background checks and drug testing took WEEKS and the meantime i had to continue clocking time at a ridiculous job. You’re doing the smart thing by waiting it out. Hang in there!

  187. Formerly Arlington*

    I had an interview for a job last month. I got an update a few weeks ago that they expected to have a decision by the end of September and were doing a few more interviews. I just saw a recruiter agency post this same job in an email of all available jobs. Does that mean they reposted the job?

  188. Rainy days*

    This is very late, but does anyone have experience using a phone app to have a “work” cell phone number for work contacts on your personal device? I don’t want to carry two devices around so I’d like to use an app to create a phone number I can give to work contacts that would allow me the ability to turn off notifications during certain hours, e.g. I’ll only be notified of calls and texts from 7am – 7pm. Basically, I want to create more boundaries while also only carrying one device.

    3. Audiophile*

      Are you freelancing?

      Either way, Google Voice might be an option. I don’t think you can set certain times for forwarding calls and texts though, at least not yet.

      I can’t think of any other options at the moment.

  189. Beeeeeeees*

    Had a phone interview with a company at the beginning of Sept, haven’t heard back. I just got an email from the company inviting me to a “Teapot Designer career fair and networking event.” The position I interviewed for was a Teapot Designer. The event description reads almost like a mini-conference. Does this sound familiar to anyone? Any idea of what I should expect? I know the company is reputable and the event isn’t ringing any alarm bells, so I’m leaning towards going. Just wondering if anyone else has done something similar. (And would it be good or bad to go when I haven’t heard back after the phone interview?)

  190. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

    Job search update: Still trudging along

    I’m still upset about getting turned down for the job I wanted – and ALMOST got – a month ago. I tried online stalking the person they hired, but their staff page isn’t updated and neither is LinkedIn (strange!) Yes I know – I’m obsessive.

    I turned down a phone interview after noticing their Glassdoor reviews were horrendous (Should have done this before I applied…whoops!)

    I was contacted by a recruiter on LinkedIn and have a phone call scheduled on Tuesday.

    1. MissDisplaced*

      I tried online stalking the person they hired, but their staff page isn’t updated and neither is LinkedIn (strange!) Yes I know – I’m obsessive.

      Aw don’t go there. It won’t make you feel any better.

      1. Miranda Priestly's Assistant*

        I actually feel like it might be insightful into how I should orient myself for future similar positions. Like, do they want more experience, or more experience in X, or what? I’m also starting to wonder if they hired someone at all.

        1. WellRed*

          It won’t actually give you insight because there’s only so much info you’ll find online about the hire, plus you can’t know the intangibles including personality fit. And the next job will have different requirements and different personalities. It’s been a month, please let this go. Focus on YOU.

  191. dm*

    I started a new job a couple weeks ago, and while looking for a recent conversation in Slack realized that all the team’s candidate feedback and discussions over who to hire are still in the app, including a google doc where it sounds like each candidate was scored across many different dimensions. I haven’t looked at the doc or read the comments (aside from what I’ve written here – I stopped reading as soon as I realized what it was) since I’m pretty sensitive and it would probably upset me even if it’s mostly positive. The problem is, I know it’s there and I worry my curiosity will get the better of me. I feel it would relieve a lot of mental stress if someone could remove my access to the doc or old comments, but I think bringing it up might make it more uncomfortable. Any thoughts?

    1. OtterB*

      I think you could talk to your boss and say that while looking in Slack you realized that conversation and google doc were there, that you don’t think it’s appropriate for you to look at it and that it should probably be removed/archived. I don’t think you have to get into the fact that it’s causing you stress – just that you should probably not have access.

  192. Some dude on the Internet*

    I could swear that I once read that job interviewers in California cannot ask about employment gaps. Indeed, out of the many interviews I’ve been to, the short gap on my resume has never even been mentioned. However, I decided to do some research and could find no mention of this law. All I could find was a forum post (without a source) saying that employers in NYC cannot ask about gaps.

    So is it illegal for job interviewers to ask about employment gaps in California? Or have I become a victim of the Mandela effect?

  193. Mona Lisa*

    Should you include or is there a good place to put conference presenter status on a resume/ LinkedIn? I found out that I was selected to give a talk at a major industry conference (tens of thousands of attendees), and since I’m job searching, I’m wondering if it’s something I should include anywhere once I’ve given the presentation.

  194. Luna*

    I work hotel reception. I started this job two and a half months ago (my probation period is 3 months), and I overall really enjoy the job. I was hired to mostly do late dayshift, but I was trained on nightshift, so that I could take over in the case of the employees (which, at the time, I was told were 3 different people) all being incapable of taking that shift.

    The thing is, I cannot do nightshift. It messes me up emotionally – I am irritable, it makes it easier for me to fall back into a depression (something that I only got out of a month ago!), and… well, it makes me have suicidal thoughts and tendencies.

    I told my boss when we discussed the job during the interview, and when signing the contract, that I got out of a nightshift job *because* it was messing up my health. Physical and mental health. Working nightshifts made me susceptible to getting sick. And I was told that my working nightshift really was just the odd emergency situation…

    Well, guess we have many emergency situations because I keep getting nightshifts now. Even if it’s only two days a week, that is making me sick. Literally. And even with one day off in between (which is a joke because anyone who ever worked nightshift knows that you tend to go to bed and end up sleeping away most of that day off), and then going back to dayshift, I am too tired. I cannot keep my brain going, and I don’t want to end up making big mistakes because I’m tired. And I am noticing the irritability is there because I feel like yelling at my coworkers and the guests over minute things.

    I keep telling myself I should talk to my boss about this – including that I wasn’t initially hired for nigthshift, but dayshift (and one of those three people who apparently do nightshift has never done a single nightshift since I started) – but I am kinda terrified of doing that. I’m still on probation, and I’ve already lost two jobs because of health issues, so I am scared that mentioning this and pushing back on ‘no nightshifts, period’ could mean I lose my job. And I DO like where I work! I just can’t do nightshifts.

    I’m not even sure if I’m asking for any tips here or just ranting to get this off my chest…

    1. valentine*

      If you stay silent, it could literally cost you your life, so, ending up fired yet alive would be better. Start job searching. Get a doctor’s note and ask for the accommodation of not having to cover night shift. (They should hire a dedicated night shift or only people who can rotate, because planning to stick one person with it is unsustainable, but that’s not yours to address.) You can honestly say you tried, but it is untenable.

      1. Luna*

        I’m surprised this was suggested. Thing is, I’ve been at this place only 2 months, and had been at my previous job only 3 months before being let go. (Health reasons) So, this would not only look bad on a resume, but also would make me lose a job I actually like.

        But things have changed. I non-chalantly talked to my manager.
        “So, does George still do any nightshifts here?”
        My boss explained that he doesn’t right now because the other hotel he works at is currently short-staffed. But that this issue should end up resolving in December, and then he’ll work nights for us again.
        “Oh, okay. It’s just I recall you mentioned he works nightshifts here, and I haven’t seen him on the schedule for that yet.”

        And we do have a dedicated nightshift employee. It’s just that she cannot do nightshift 7 days a week, so at least two nights need to be done by someone else. And with George being off helping out the other hotel, and the other nightshift substitute currently being on vacation, I am designated for it. But it’s only this one week, then I should go back to only having day shifts.

    2. Just Another Manic Millie*

      It sounds like bait-and-switch to me. Especially because you say that one of the three people that you were told work the nightshift hasn’t worked the nightshift even once since you started there.

      I’ve been the victim of bait-and-switch before, so I know for sure that it exists. In one job, I was hired to be a secretary and back-up receptionist, but on my first day, I was told that the receptionist had just quit, so until they hired a new one, I would have to be the receptionist. They never hired a new receptionist. Being both the receptionist and the back-up receptionist is no fun, because there isn’t anyone around who can give you a break.

      At another company, I was hired to be an admin asst (nothing was said about being a receptionist or a back-up receptionist), but on my first day, I was told that the receptionist was out on vacation, so I would have to be the receptionist until she returned. A few days later, I was told that I was doing such a good job that I would be the permanent receptionist, and when the current receptionist returned, she would be given another job. A few days later, I figured out that there wasn’t any receptionist on vacation. It was pure bait-and-switch.

      At another company, a o-worker was hired to work 10:00 AM to 6:00 PM, but he was asked if he could work overtime when necessary. He felt obligated to say yes. He wound up working every single day until 10:00 PM or 11:00 PM.

      Get out ASAP. TPTB must have found out that when they told the truth that nightshifts would be required a few times each week, the applicants lost interest, so they decided to pretend that nightshifts would be required only in emergency situations.

      1. Jeffrey Deutsch*

        “TPTB must have found out that when they told the truth that nightshifts would be required a few times each week, the applicants lost interest, so they decided to pretend that nightshifts would be required only in emergency situations.”

        I think everyday stuff like this, not the front-page Enron, Wells Fargo and Volkswagen scandals, is why many people hate business.

      2. Luna*

        Thanks for the concern. Talked with the boss, and the one employee thing was explained to me decently. I think I’ll go back to only having dayshifts within a week or two.

        If push comes to shove, I will go to my doctor and have her write a medical letter/certificate that says that because of health reasons, I cannot work nightshifts, and hand that to my boss.

        And we are currently looking into hiring more people, including for reception, so we will get more people onto the team. Hopefully including someone who will gladly take nightshift-only. (Personally, if I were the hiring manager, I would hire a part-timer for nightshift, so that you have a dedicated part-timer to do nightshifts when the main nightshift employee is having her days off or taking a vacation.)

    3. Bilateralrope*

      When you say you’ve done night shifts before, was it permanent night shifts or switching between days and nights ?

      I’m currently on permanent night shifts. I find them manageable if I’ve got a cool, dark place to sleep during the day. The major trick is that I stick to being up at night on my days off. Still, I can easily see why some people cant handle permanent nights.

      Switching between days and nights like you’re doing is worse. I did that for a bit when I was between permanent sites and it was not pleasant. It takes about a week to adjust after any sleep pattern changes and, if you dont get to adjust, you’re just going to keep getting worse.

      Still, I’ve got some tips to make things better for you until you find a permanent solution:
      – pick a time when you plan to sleep that will be disrupted the least by those ’emergency’ night shifts. Stick to it.
      – when you’re thrown off schedule, do not let yourself have more than a short nap outside of it, unless that’s the only way to have sufficient sleep between night shifts. Use short naps or staying up while tired instead.
      – Make your room as dark as you can for sleeping. If that means a cheap foil layer behind your curtains, get it. Curtains that go to the floor are much better than those that only just get past the windowsill.
      – Get your vitamin d level checked. Its produced by you being exposed to sunlight, so you might be low. If you’re low, buy a vitamin d supplement.
      – Bright lights are good at keeping you awake during the hours you want to be up.

      But you’re main focus should be in getting away from switching between days and nights. Which might mean finding another job.

      1. Luna*

        My first hotel job was night auditor, so I was hired for nothing but nightshift. And I did just as you do, staying up all night when I had my days off because I was just used to that. But it still hurt my health (I’m not the healthiest person to begin with, having a few hereditary issues) and really made me fall into a depression.

        Problem with your suggestion is that it’s a hotel… we generally have shifts, and tend to not have permanent days of work. And my room is generally pretty dark because I have heavy-duty curtains that I use to keep light out during the summer, to keep my room cool.

        It doesn’t matter what I do for it, working nights just messes with my mental and physical health. But as I said, I didn’t have a sit-down-and-let’s-talk with the boss, but did get some information out of her. I know I am actually complaining about having two nightshifts a week right now, but… as said, being emotionally thrown into a storm is enough to make me irrational…
        I’m unlikely to get more nightshifts from next week on, so I should be back to only dayshifts. If she does keep insisting on putting me on nightshift, I will sit down and ask her why, when I told her during my interview that health reasons were why I left nightshift initially, and might even bring a note from my doctor saying to not put me on nightshifts.

  195. Heffalump*

    Here’s one for the weird-coworkers file. Some years ago I had a several-month contract assignment on a team of ~60 people. We were in a good-sized facility divided into quite a few smaller spaces. If a given person was out of my sight, there were any number of places s/he could be. I worked in a room with 5 or 6 other people, including Laura and Roberta,

    One day I needed to get hold of Roberta. I looked up from my computer, and Laura, who worked a couple of cubes away from me, was the only other person in the room, so I addressed her:

    “Laura, do you know where Roberta is?”

    “She’s there.” (No indication of where “there” was.)

    “Where’s `there’?”

    “Where would she be?” (If I knew where she “would be,” I wouldn’t have been asking where she was!)

    We kept sparring, and finally, after I had asked about 8 (!) times, she vaguely pointed towards a door off the room we were in and said, “She’s in that office.”

    “Do you mean she’s in Bill Smith’s office?”

    “Yes.”

    I had to suppress the urge to say, “So why the bloody hell didn’t you just say, `She’s in Bill Smith’s office.’ the first time I asked?” It wasn’t even a rude/personal/inappropriate question, and she knew the answer all along. Even if she had had reason not to tell me where Roberta was, the appropriate response would have been, “She’s unavailable.”

    I had had to use a lot of willpower not to start shouting at her. If I had, the onus would probably have been on me for losing it, not on her for provoking me. Any idea why someone would do such a thing?

    1. valentine*

      Maybe every question feels like an imposition.

      She could’ve been in the bathroom or white river rafting. I really hate “Think about it.” I have! You’ll never know how much it galls me that I had to ask!

    2. Jeffrey Deutsch*

      If I had a dollar for every time I felt like saying (or actually said) “You could have just said that from the beginning!”…

  196. Tiny Scot*

    Long time reader, first time commenter!

    What are people’s favourite practical ways of dealing with job rejection?

    I was rejected this week from a job I interviewed for, that aligns with the education and training I’ve been doing for the last 3 years. I’m currently working in the same location at a lower level than I’m trained for, so this job was basically what I’ve been ultimately working towards. I really, really wanted the job and I’ve taken it super hard .

    I didn’t think I was an automatic pick for the job, didn’t feel entitled to it, I knew the interview could go either way, so I was pretty surprised when I reacted the way I did – I was really upset, did some crying. I’ve thrown myself back into my current job, working hard as usual, and it hasn’t affected my work or my usual optimistic attitude, but inside I’m still not over it. I’ve been rejected for a lot (a LOT) of jobs before but never taken it quite so badly before.

    I did ask for feedback but all they were able to tell me is that it was very close, I had a very good interview and there was nothing I could improve on, just try again next time. Which was technically good news, but definitely not making me feel better!

    Does anyone have any tips? At the moment I’m mostly just making sure I work hard and eating lots of pastries.

    1. Miranda Priestly’s Assistant*

      I’m going through the exact same thing (see above) so I relate! I think the only thing to do at this point is to allow yourself to be sad for awhile, comfort yourself, take a little break, and then get back to trying. I think it’s totally okay to be disappointed at the outcome, but you have to eventually accept it and move on if you do want to ultimately get an offer. Sadly, this kind of outcome is common for a lot of people, because there are multiple good candidates for any job opening. It all comes down to luck. Sometimes it’s worth remembering all the times luck was in your favor – it is a good reminder that these things are possible.

    2. 653-CXK*

      Pastries are always good – especially the ones with the apple filling :-)

      When I was unemployed, the worst rejections was when I was thisclose to a job, and the recruiter took it to his boss and I was flatly rejected. (Didn’t help that I was let go for performance, but at least I got a ‘thanks for being honest’ for that!) The better rejections were where I knew I was outclassed, and they gave a perfunctory “we’re not moving forward with your application” email.

  197. The Chatty One*

    I have a question about new employees and unpaid holiday company shutdowns.

    I’m about to start a new job. When I asked if I could take my existing planned PTO (including Christmas Eve through New Year’s Day), my future boss said that the company shuts down during that time anyway so that’s definitely fine. When I checked the company benefits, they don’t list the entire Christmas week as a holiday, so I think it’s one of those “use PTO or take it unpaid” holiday company shutdowns.

    Previous AAMs have mentioned that US exempt employees are not required to take unpaid leave for company mandated shutdowns. But I feel a bit weird bringing that up right after I’ve started. I don’t want to be the guy who starts a new job and immediately says “according to US Code 541.602 Subsection 1.a.2, you have to pay me for the holiday shutdown if I don’t have PTO available”. Should I just wait a few months before bringing it up? Managers: how would you want a new hire to handle this?

    Also, one thing that’s unclear about this code is what happens if part of week is paid holiday. If the company shuts down for a whole week, they don’t have to pay exempt employees, but what if two of those shutdown days are actually paid holidays? Does that count as working or not?

    1. valentine*

      Clarify with your boss now. If necessary, you can vaguely refer to the law without quoting chapter and verse.

      I doubt paid holidays count as working, just like OT is for hours worked over 40.

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